17001|16991|2008-03-27 16:16:21|brentswain38|Re: Argo - the complete story|There is absolutely no doubt that the arctic ocean ice is declining drastically. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rcjoyner" wrote: > > Argo's cool reception > > > March 26, 2008 > > (from the Washington Times ) > > Three-thousand oceanic probes — the "Argo" program — are a problem > for global-warming alarmists. More to the point, explaining the > probes' findings should be a priority for the alarmists if science is > what drives them, and credibility. Argo shows no global warming over > the last five years. In fact, the numbers show a slight cooling. > These are merely one small data set, but they cut against the > rhetoric, and require attention. Interestingly, though, as one > measure of the widespread disinterest, the New York Times has not > reported on Argo since its launch in 2000. > > The 3,000 probes are scattered around the world's oceans surveying > temperature and salinity. They surface approximately every 10 days, > beam data to researchers and submerge again. They are not the climate > scientist's monitoring panacea: That would be a $3 billion oceanic > system the Partnership for Observation of the Global Oceans touted to > warn of everything from tsunamis to climate change to undersea > volcanic activity in the Daily Telegraph recently. But they were > certainly viewed as a great advance when first deployed. "What we've > done in the past is piecemeal," the New York Times quoted one > oceanographer not involved with the project in the newspaper's sole > story more than seven years ago. The project, in his view, "will help > figure out what it is we have to be doing in terms of greenhouse gas > control." Now, watch for the probes' findings to be questioned, or > just ignored as usual. > > Why the disinterest in these probes? To be sure, five years of data > from a few thousand monitors do not tell us much about the future of > the global climate. The numbers are "not really anything > significant," NASA's Josh Willis told National Public Radio recently, > also noting that they do show "a very slight cooling." Believers in > catastrophic man-made global warming can argue that a short pause in > warming now could still be consistent with some doomsday scenario > decades hence. As it could be, if we knew for certain. That would be > a defensible position in today's debates given climate science's > uncertainty. > > But we do not know with much certainty, and that points up Argo's > real significance for the lay observer. Climate is extremely complex, > and climate science is not nearly as advanced as the politics of > global warming routinely suggest it to be. Accordingly, it should not > be shoved into Gore-sized soundbites. This "inconvenient truth," so > difficult for the alarmists to accept, detracts from the credibility > of those who warn of catastrophic man-made warming each time it is > ignored > > rob > | 17002|16991|2008-03-27 17:53:52|delfuego02|Re: Argo - the complete story|Argo's cool reception The Washington Times reporter needs to do some current reading, this particular claim is addressed in Dr Lyman's correction to his 2006 paper(See http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/people/lyman/Pdf/heat_2006.pdf) Also from issue 2601 of New Scientist magazine, 28 April 2007, page 4 Upper oceans are warming after all 28 April 2007 Climate-change naysayers pounced on a report last year suggesting that the upper oceans are cooling, not warming. Now it turns out this conclusion was wrong, the result of faulty measurements. The Argo project was launched in 2000 to record ocean temperature and salinity all over the world, using a network of 3000 floats containing sensory equipment to gather data through the upper 2000 metres of the ocean. Unfortunately, 300 were mis-recording the water pressure, making the floats appear closer to the surface than they really were. Before Argo, ocean temperature was measured using sensors called XBTs that were thrown into the sea, where they slowly sank. These sensors didn't fall as fast as originally assumed. Water is warmer near the surface, so the XBT temperature readings were too high and some Argo readings too low. When John Lyman from the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory in Seattle, Washington, and his colleagues compared the Argo and XBT measurements, it appeared that the upper oceans had cooled by 0.02 ° C between 2003 and 2005 (Geophysical Research Letters, DOI: 10.1029/2006GL027033). In fact the cooling was an artefact, caused by the switch from XBTs to Argo, combined with the faulty floats. Lyman's team has submitted a correction and is recalibrating the data. Calculations are still ongoing, but it now looks like no cooling occurred. "The upper ocean cooling was always surprising because the change was so sudden," says Josh Willis of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.| 17003|16991|2008-03-27 19:19:26|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - the complete story|It is not like it is the first time and before we didn't have all the man made CO2 to use as a cause. http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There is absolutely no doubt that the arctic ocean ice is declining > drastically. > Brent | 17004|16988|2008-03-27 20:19:35|Paul Wilson|Re: Through hulls|The problem with the Marelon is the seals swell after long exposure to water. The valves are in two parts and loosening them a bit so that there is less pressure on the seals frees them up. Once reset you shouldn't have to do it again. I had the same problem on another boat with nylon rudder bushings getting so tight on the rudder stock after swelling in seawater that you couldn't turn the rudder. Taking about 10 thousands of an inch off the bushings solved the problem. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Joe Earsley To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 7:51:03 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Through hulls The Marlon (plastic) ball valves sold for seacocks are junk. They will seize up on you at the worst time. They somehow want you to annually grease the ball so it will not seize. So think about pulling each of your hoses off each year to get into the seacock to put some Vaseline on 1/2 of the ball. You will not be able to get to the other half. I have been on 2 boats that the seacock seized. Both times in the closed position. The last time was on a chartered boat that had had the raw water pump changed out. The 2" seacock handle rotated but the ball didn't so the engine overheated again. -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:39 AM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Through hulls I have also changed all my through hulls and seacocks to 316 S.S. Why? Peace of mind. If there is a fire, they will not melt. If something heavy falls on them or I stand on them, they will not shear. I sleep better for it :-) -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor James wrote: > I was just commiting myself to plastic inlets , and possibly seacocks , so > would be interested to know why you are getting rid of ? james > > On 3/27/08, boden36 wrote: >> Hi, I seem to remember that someone on the list was using stainless >> pipe stubs welded to the hull, topped by stainless ballcocks as >> seacocks. ------------ --------- --------- ------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17005|16968|2008-03-27 20:52:54|Paul Wilson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Hi Ben, I admit I am a bit perplexed about your example of shooting with a transducer through a steel hull. I am going to quibble a bit but you gave the impression that shooting through a steel hull was OK. Maybe I am out of my depth now since its been a few years, but I worked in marine electronics for a couple of years and never heard of transducers being mounted inside the hulls of metal boats. The manufacturers generally recommend shooting through fiberglass hulls only. My feeling is it may not work as you well as you might think. It could possibly even damage the tranducer if reflected power is too great. This is probably not a problem with a low powered unit but I have seen large transducers crack when not mounted properly. If steel was so good for transmitting the signal the fishing boats on the west coast of Canada would be using a steel dome to cover over their sonar pods instead of fiberglass. They are always hitting logs and more than one has broken off sonar pods at great expense. Anyway, good information all the same. If my transducer fails it is good to know I can try shooting through the hull in a pinch. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 11:26:38 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 01:17:43PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > The newer depth sounders rely on better signal processing on their > receivers and are lower power than the units from years ago. While a > high powered unit with a large transducer might work through steel, I > don't think most of the small fish-finders would work well at all. The one that we mounted on Jean-Loup's boat was an Eagle fish-finder with a 200kHz transducer; if I recall correctly, this was in either 1998 or 1999. Unless there's been yet another quantum jump in depth-sounder technology, this was the new stuff. The key factor here is not just power alone - it's the density of the material. Steel is perfect, since it transmits the signal with minimal loss (assuming that you have a solid mechanical tie between the face of the transducer and the hull, that is.) Fiberglass - especially given the hidden voids in sloppily laid-up FGRP - is much less so, and yet I've heard of people doing this (or a similar installation, with the transducer mounted in a tube filled with mineral oil) successfully on glass boats. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17006|16991|2008-03-27 21:11:03|brentswain38|Re: Argo - the complete story|Icebreakers went to 80 degrees north last summer without seeing any solid sea ice. Huge areas of Antarctica have broken free for the first time in centuries. The flow of the South Sakatchewan River, fed by glaciers, has dropped to 15% of what it was 100 years ago. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "delfuego02" wrote: > > Argo's cool reception > > The Washington Times reporter needs to do some current reading, this > particular claim is addressed in Dr Lyman's correction to his 2006 > paper(See http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/people/lyman/Pdf/heat_2006.pdf) > > Also from issue 2601 of New Scientist magazine, 28 April 2007, page 4 > > Upper oceans are warming after all > 28 April 2007 > Climate-change naysayers pounced on a report last year suggesting > that the upper oceans are cooling, not warming. Now it turns out > this conclusion was wrong, the result of faulty measurements. > > The Argo project was launched in 2000 to record ocean temperature > and salinity all over the world, using a network of 3000 floats > containing sensory equipment to gather data through the upper 2000 > metres of the ocean. Unfortunately, 300 were mis-recording the water > pressure, making the floats appear closer to the surface than they > really were. Before Argo, ocean temperature was measured using > sensors called XBTs that were thrown into the sea, where they slowly > sank. These sensors didn't fall as fast as originally assumed. Water > is warmer near the surface, so the XBT temperature readings were too > high and some Argo readings too low. > > When John Lyman from the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric > Administration's Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory in Seattle, > Washington, and his colleagues compared the Argo and XBT > measurements, it appeared that the upper oceans had cooled by 0.02 ° > C between 2003 and 2005 (Geophysical Research Letters, DOI: > 10.1029/2006GL027033). In fact the cooling was an artefact, caused > by the switch from XBTs to Argo, combined with the faulty floats. > Lyman's team has submitted a correction and is recalibrating the > data. Calculations are still ongoing, but it now looks like no > cooling occurred. > > "The upper ocean cooling was always surprising because the change > was so sudden," says Josh Willis of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in > Pasadena, California. > | 17007|16988|2008-03-27 21:14:32|brentswain38|Re: Through hulls|That is why plastic bushings in self steering systems should rattle loosly. One could always let any plastic you plan to machine sit in a water filled container for a couple of months before machining. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The problem with the Marelon is the seals swell after long exposure to water. The valves are in two parts and loosening them a bit so that there is less pressure on the seals frees them up. Once reset you shouldn't have to do it again. I had the same problem on another boat with nylon rudder bushings getting so tight on the rudder stock after swelling in seawater that you couldn't turn the rudder. Taking about 10 thousands of an inch off the bushings solved the problem. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Joe Earsley > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 7:51:03 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Through hulls > > The Marlon (plastic) ball valves sold for seacocks are junk. They will > seize up on you at the worst time. They somehow want you to annually > grease the ball so it will not seize. So think about pulling each of > your hoses off each year to get into the seacock to put some Vaseline on > 1/2 of the ball. You will not be able to get to the other half. I have > been on 2 boats that the seacock seized. Both times in the closed > position. The last time was on a chartered boat that had had the raw > water pump changed out. The 2" seacock handle rotated but the ball > didn't so the engine overheated again. > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] > On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:39 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Through hulls > > I have also changed all my through hulls and seacocks to 316 S.S. Why? > Peace of mind. If there is a fire, they will not melt. If something > heavy falls on them or I stand on them, they will not shear. > > I sleep better for it :-) > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > James wrote: > > I was just commiting myself to plastic inlets , and possibly seacocks > , so > > would be interested to know why you are getting rid of ? james > > > > On 3/27/08, boden36 wrote: > >> Hi, I seem to remember that someone on the list was using > stainless > >> pipe stubs welded to the hull, topped by stainless ballcocks as > >> seacocks. > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17008|16968|2008-03-27 21:58:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 05:52:53PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I admit I am a bit perplexed about your example of shooting with a > transducer through a steel hull. I am going to quibble a bit but you > gave the impression that shooting through a steel hull was OK. There's nothing quite like experience. :) You can always test it easily by typing a plastic bag full of water around your transducer and placing it on the steel in your bilge (not over the ballast or tankage, obviously.) That's pretty close to what I did originally on Jean-Loup's boat, since I wasn't 100% sure. This won't work quite as well as a solid mount, since the steel is now a barrier rather than part of the structure, but it should definitely demonstrate that it works. > Maybe > I am out of my depth now since its been a few years, but I worked in > marine electronics for a couple of years and never heard of > transducers being mounted inside the hulls of metal boats. The > manufacturers generally recommend shooting through fiberglass hulls > only. Since you worked in marine electronics, I'm a bit surprised that you'd even question this. Haven't you ever seen a solid bronze transducer? If you have, then you _know_ that you can shoot a sonar signal through metal. In searching the Net, the only warnings I can find against this technique is "don't do it in a cored hull." That makes complete sense to me; passing a signal through foam will attenuate it to nothing. > My feeling is it may not work as you well as you might think. In my case, it's not a question of guessing - I've done it, and it worked just fine. > It > could possibly even damage the tranducer if reflected power is too > great. This is probably not a problem with a low powered unit but I > have seen large transducers crack when not mounted properly. If > steel was so good for transmitting the signal the fishing boats on the > west coast of Canada would be using a steel dome to cover over their > sonar pods instead of fiberglass. They are always hitting logs and > more than one has broken off sonar pods at great expense. I'm afraid that the argument of "nobody does it" says nothing about the usability or the quality of this method. Very few people build Brentboats - does that mean they don't work? > Anyway, good information all the same. If my transducer fails it is > good to know I can try shooting through the hull in a pinch. Since you have no confidence in this method, you probably shouldn't rely on it as a backup. Conversely, you could test it as I described above; this would result in _two_ positive outcomes. You'd know that it works, so you'd actually have a backup, and you could also let everyone here know what results you got. Although I suppose someone would tell you that it doesn't work, since the fishing boats on the west coast of Canada would be doing it if it did... :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17009|16968|2008-03-27 22:26:37|Paul J. Thompson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Ben you are a naughty Man :-) -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Paul Wilson wrote: > If steel was so good for transmitting the signal the fishing boats on the west coast of Canada would be using a steel dome to cover over their sonar pods instead of fiberglass. They are always hitting logs and more than one has broken off sonar pods at great expense. Ben Okopnik wrote: > Since you have no confidence in this method, you probably shouldn't rely > on it as a backup. Conversely, you could test it as I described above; > this would result in _two_ positive outcomes. You'd know that it works, > so you'd actually have a backup, and you could also let everyone here > know what results you got. Although I suppose someone would tell you > that it doesn't work, since the fishing boats on the west coast of > Canada would be doing it if it did... :) | 17010|16968|2008-03-27 23:06:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 03:26:34PM +1300, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > Ben you are a naughty Man :-) Thanks, Paul - I do my best! :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17011|17011|2008-03-27 23:06:20|marybarker24|interesting groups to join for free!|Dear Member Here are some interesting groups to join for FREE! 5 star group: FreebieWorld Members of this excellent group recieve lots of great stuff dor FREE. You will find so much free-stuff listed on the message board and in the files section of the group, and its just waiting for you to 'pop in' and grab it! There are books, audio books, games, kids stuff, clothes, cosmetics, special offers and discounts, competitions, software, stuff for your mobile, business stuff and so much more to grab for FREE! It is of course FREE to join the group, and you can do so by using the link below: http://www.myfreeshop.biz Please also invite your family, friends and work colleagues to join the group, by sending them the link above. Lastly, here are some other great groups & clubs to join! 1. If you own a website, how about a group to help you with website marketing tips! Visit: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/websitemarketingnews/ 2. If you are over 18!, and like to watch a FREE adult movies every now and again, check out this group! Visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EroticMovies4free/ 3. If you are a single or divorced male, check out this group. Its packed with beautiful ladies wanting a date! Visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ladiesinthailand/ 4. If you need a good laugh, why not visit our comedy video sharing website and put a smile back on your face! Visit: http://www.laughtershare.com Regards Member This email is not spam, I am a member of this group and therefore allowed to contact all other members. I will not however, abuse this privelage by sharing your data or by sending lots of emails. I will only let other members know of 'Freebies' or great offers, periodically!| 17012|16968|2008-03-27 23:28:57|Paul J. Thompson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|You ever come out to New Zealand, I would enjoy to sink a few with you. We have quite a few interests in common, Boats, cruising, Linux, Bikes, Electronics and last but (this is guaranteed) very far from least wives from Asia :-) Would love to cruise the USA again but its current attitudes to the rest of the world make it an increasingly unattractive place. Which is sad as I have many American friends for whom I have the greatest regard and affection. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 03:26:34PM +1300, Paul J. Thompson wrote: >> Ben you are a naughty Man :-) > > Thanks, Paul - I do my best! :) | 17013|16968|2008-03-28 00:08:14|Aaron Williams|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Would any one out there be willing to experament with there steel hull? It will be at least till next year before I can get in the water. I know the charter boats I worked on as a teenager had oil filled boxes or through hull but they were wood boats. Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:53:17 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer The technique that I used to install a Hummingbird fish finder in my Catalina 22 was to sink it in some wax that was then stuck to the inside of the hull forward of the keel. It works great and is removable if & when I choose to do so. As for doing the same thing in a metal hull boat I'm not sure that is what you want to do. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab. com Aaron Williams wrote: > > > I installed a Humminbird external mount transducer inside on my aluminum > power boat with epoxy after the mount broke. It about the same.Then the > epoxy popped of the aluminum. My wife some stuff called Gorilla glue so > I tried that and I finely got it back off last winter. Anyways read the > lable before you apply the glue, It was an expanding type glue like in > foam insulation. The screen on the depth finder looked like an aquarium > with to many aerators. I could still use it but only in 20' or less. > Aaron > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:44:55 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer > > I never had much luck getting a transducer to shoot thru steel. > Brent- > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Jim Ragsdale > wrote: > > > > Cool. I wasn't sure one of those would shoot through steel. That > would be really easy. I could probably do without a speed log and just > rely on the GPS. That would eliminate a through hull as the speed log > would definitely require one for the paddle wheel. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Ben Okopnik > > To: Origami Boat list > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:19:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] depth transducer and speedlog transducer > > > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 08:56:04AM -0700, Jim > Ragsdale wrote: > > > how do you guys install these in a steel boat? > > > > A friend of mine, another steel boat owner, asked me that when we were > > anchored in St. Thomas - he didn't want to haul out, but wanted to > > install one anyway. We cleared a mostly-horizontal spot just to the side > > of his keel, ground it down to bare metal, put down a coat of epoxy - > > and while it was still liquid, carefully pushed the transducer into it, > > making sure that there were no bubbles between it and the steel. When he > > tested it out several days later, he had a good return signal all the > > way down to 120' - which is what his sounder was rated for. > > > > You can also do this with fiberglass, but a void in the glass under the > > transducer would make the whole operation useless. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17014|16988|2008-03-28 00:14:55|Aaron Williams|Re: Through hulls|The chemical plant I worked at used 316 SS ball valves with teflon seals made by Apollo. They were used on everything, Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:11:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Through hulls Over the last 35 years I've used stainless type 316 nipples welded to the hull with stainless rod, and stainless type 316 ball valves. No problem. Why would you do it any other way? Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James wrote: > > I was just commiting myself to plastic inlets , and possibly seacocks , so > would be interested to know why you are getting rid of ? james > > On 3/27/08, boden36 wrote: > > > > Hi, I seem to remember that someone on the list was using stainless > > pipe stubs welded to the hull, topped by stainless ballcocks as > > seacocks. > > How did this work out? What was the best grade of stainless to use, and > > also brand of ballcock? I am looking to get rid of my plastic seacocks. > > Thanks, Richard. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17015|16988|2008-03-28 00:14:56|Aaron Williams|Re: Through hulls|The chemical plant I worked at used 316 SS ball valves with teflon seals made by Apollo. They were used on everything, Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:11:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Through hulls Over the last 35 years I've used stainless type 316 nipples welded to the hull with stainless rod, and stainless type 316 ball valves. No problem. Why would you do it any other way? Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James wrote: > > I was just commiting myself to plastic inlets , and possibly seacocks , so > would be interested to know why you are getting rid of ? james > > On 3/27/08, boden36 wrote: > > > > Hi, I seem to remember that someone on the list was using stainless > > pipe stubs welded to the hull, topped by stainless ballcocks as > > seacocks. > > How did this work out? What was the best grade of stainless to use, and > > also brand of ballcock? I am looking to get rid of my plastic seacocks. > > Thanks, Richard. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17016|16968|2008-03-28 00:26:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 04:28:47PM +1300, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > You ever come out to New Zealand, I would enjoy to sink a few with you. > We have quite a few interests in common, Boats, cruising, Linux, Bikes, > Electronics and last but (this is guaranteed) very far from least wives > from Asia :-) Cruising NZ is one of my long-term dreams. If I make it down there, I'd be happy to share a few with you! > Would love to cruise the USA again but its current attitudes to the rest > of the world make it an increasingly unattractive place. Which is sad as > I have many American friends for whom I have the greatest regard and > affection. [sigh] Paul, I can't do anything but agree with you. I love this country, but... I don't want to start another political thread here, so I'll just leave it at that. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17017|16988|2008-03-28 01:31:53|pynrc@aol.com|Re: Through hulls|Thanks everybody for clarifying that. I have had plastic fittings on the boat for 20 years now and whilst they work well I have always worried about cracking, degeneration and fire safety. Will change to 316. Regards, Richard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17018|16988|2008-03-28 02:00:11|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Through hulls|Well Richard you have the good luck to be in Canada, I hope. Through hulls for _$2_ a pound. Here in NZ I can only dream of such bargains. Closer to $150.00 (and up up up...wards) each (depending on size) here and the scrap merchants will not sell you anything here because liability problems. However it sure motivates one to keep the number of through hulls to the minimum :-) -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor pynrc@... wrote: > Thanks everybody for clarifying that. I have had plastic fittings on the boat > for 20 years now and whilst they work well I have always worried about > cracking, degeneration and fire safety. Will change to 316. Regards, Richard. | 17019|16968|2008-03-28 16:19:40|Paul Wilson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Hey Ben, I have an experiment for you to try as well. Take a bronze depth sounder transducer. Hold it above your head and look straight up at it so you are looking at the bottom of it. Make sure you don't drop it because you don't want to hurt the transducer. What material do you see? I don't think it will be bronze. Now outside, by the bike racks, after school. All kidding aside, we aren't talking about movie stars or something totally trivial like many other websites. People's safety and hard earned money is involved and they need to make the right decisions. Jim sounded as if he was going to go ahead and mount his transducer inside his steel hull based on what you told him. In my opinion, I think it would be a mistake to do so in a permanent installation and nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. You tried it once and got a depth sounder to read to 120 feet. Good info but I don't think it proves that it is the right way to go, so I said so. Lest this degenerate/generate further, may I suggest we agree to disagree. It's really nothing personal, if we actually meet one day, I will buy the first round. For anyone else still reading this and wanting more information, please ignore both of us. We are both obviously too opinionated to be rational. It's probably too many fumes over the years from working on our boats. I may be one sandwich short of a full picnic, as my wife keeps telling me. Get another opinion and check out http://airmar.custhelp.com Go to "What goes into the making of a transducer" and then "acoustic window" as well as the questions relating to shooting through a hull. It's a great website with no BS. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 3:04:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 05:52:53PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I admit I am a bit perplexed about your example of shooting with a > transducer through a steel hull. I am going to quibble a bit but you > gave the impression that shooting through a steel hull was OK. There's nothing quite like experience. :) You can always test it easily by typing a plastic bag full of water around your transducer and placing it on the steel in your bilge (not over the ballast or tankage, obviously.) That's pretty close to what I did originally on Jean-Loup's boat, since I wasn't 100% sure. This won't work quite as well as a solid mount, since the steel is now a barrier rather than part of the structure, but it should definitely demonstrate that it works. > Maybe > I am out of my depth now since its been a few years, but I worked in > marine electronics for a couple of years and never heard of > transducers being mounted inside the hulls of metal boats. The > manufacturers generally recommend shooting through fiberglass hulls > only. Since you worked in marine electronics, I'm a bit surprised that you'd even question this. Haven't you ever seen a solid bronze transducer? If you have, then you _know_ that you can shoot a sonar signal through metal. In searching the Net, the only warnings I can find against this technique is "don't do it in a cored hull." That makes complete sense to me; passing a signal through foam will attenuate it to nothing. > My feeling is it may not work as you well as you might think. In my case, it's not a question of guessing - I've done it, and it worked just fine. > It > could possibly even damage the tranducer if reflected power is too > great. This is probably not a problem with a low powered unit but I > have seen large transducers crack when not mounted properly. If > steel was so good for transmitting the signal the fishing boats on the > west coast of Canada would be using a steel dome to cover over their > sonar pods instead of fiberglass. They are always hitting logs and > more than one has broken off sonar pods at great expense. I'm afraid that the argument of "nobody does it" says nothing about the usability or the quality of this method. Very few people build Brentboats - does that mean they don't work? > Anyway, good information all the same. If my transducer fails it is > good to know I can try shooting through the hull in a pinch. Since you have no confidence in this method, you probably shouldn't rely on it as a backup. Conversely, you could test it as I described above; this would result in _two_ positive outcomes. You'd know that it works, so you'd actually have a backup, and you could also let everyone here know what results you got. Although I suppose someone would tell you that it doesn't work, since the fishing boats on the west coast of Canada would be doing it if it did... :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17020|16968|2008-03-28 16:38:26|Paul J. Thompson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Hi Paul, But why not do the experiment that Ben suggested? Namely: > You can always test it easily > by typing a plastic bag full of water around your transducer and placing > it on the steel in your bilge (not over the ballast or tankage, > obviously.) I would do it but it is still 8 months till I am back in the water. If no one has done the experiment, I will do it then. Lastly, I do not think that Ben was suggesting that it was the ideal way to do things, just that it could be done. Anyway the two of you have provided a bit off amusement with your bard trading ...... They do say that small things amuse small minds though :-) -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) Paul Wilson wrote: > Hey Ben, > > I have an experiment for you to try as well. Take a bronze depth sounder transducer. Hold it above your head and look straight up at it so you are looking at the bottom of it. Make sure you don't drop it because you don't want to hurt the transducer. What material do you see? I don't think it will be bronze. > > Now outside, by the bike racks, after school. > > All kidding aside, we aren't talking about movie stars or something totally trivial like many other websites. People's safety and hard earned money is involved and they need to make the right decisions. Jim sounded as if he was going to go ahead and mount his transducer inside his steel hull based on what you told him. In my opinion, I think it would be a mistake to do so in a permanent installation and nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. You tried it once and got a depth sounder to read to 120 feet. Good info but I don't think it proves that it is the right way to go, so I said so. > > Lest this degenerate/generate further, may I suggest we agree to disagree. It's really nothing personal, if we actually meet one day, I will buy the first round. > > For anyone else still reading this and wanting more information, please ignore both of us. We are both obviously too opinionated to be rational. It's probably too many fumes over the years from working on our boats. I may be one sandwich short of a full picnic, as my wife keeps telling me. Get another opinion and check out http://airmar.custhelp.com Go to "What goes into the making of a transducer" and then "acoustic window" as well as the questions relating to shooting through a hull. It's a great website with no BS. > > Cheers, Paul | 17021|16968|2008-03-28 19:55:03|Paul Wilson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Hi Paul, I am in the same boat as you....I have a long list of things to do since I am currently rebuilding the house as well as the boat. I am probably closer to a year before I get back in the water. My boat is in New Plymouth where it is less than boater friendly. I don't have any immediate offshore plans and I have nowhere to keep the boat here when I re-launch. You have to kill somebody to get a mooring here. I take your point with Ben. Glad we are providing some amusement. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 9:38:22 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer Hi Paul, But why not do the experiment that Ben suggested? Namely: > You can always test it easily > by typing a plastic bag full of water around your transducer and placing > it on the steel in your bilge (not over the ballast or tankage, > obviously.) I would do it but it is still 8 months till I am back in the water. If no one has done the experiment, I will do it then. Lastly, I do not think that Ben was suggesting that it was the ideal way to do things, just that it could be done. Anyway the two of you have provided a bit off amusement with your bard trading ...... They do say that small things amuse small minds though :-) -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) Paul Wilson wrote: > Hey Ben, > > I have an experiment for you to try as well. Take a bronze depth sounder transducer. Hold it above your head and look straight up at it so you are looking at the bottom of it. Make sure you don't drop it because you don't want to hurt the transducer. What material do you see? I don't think it will be bronze. > > Now outside, by the bike racks, after school. > > All kidding aside, we aren't talking about movie stars or something totally trivial like many other websites. People's safety and hard earned money is involved and they need to make the right decisions. Jim sounded as if he was going to go ahead and mount his transducer inside his steel hull based on what you told him. In my opinion, I think it would be a mistake to do so in a permanent installation and nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. You tried it once and got a depth sounder to read to 120 feet. Good info but I don't think it proves that it is the right way to go, so I said so. > > Lest this degenerate/generate further, may I suggest we agree to disagree. It's really nothing personal, if we actually meet one day, I will buy the first round. > > For anyone else still reading this and wanting more information, please ignore both of us. We are both obviously too opinionated to be rational. It's probably too many fumes over the years from working on our boats. I may be one sandwich short of a full picnic, as my wife keeps telling me. Get another opinion and check out http://airmar. custhelp. com Go to "What goes into the making of a transducer" and then "acoustic window" as well as the questions relating to shooting through a hull. It's a great website with no BS. > > Cheers, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal for Yahoo! users and friends. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text1.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17022|16968|2008-03-28 21:19:44|Paul J. Thompson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Hi Paul, Thanks for the note. Yes New Plymouth is well known as not the boater friendliest place in NZ. Should you come up to Auckland sometime, please let me know and we could get together to sink a few and have a jawing session. I always enjoy talking about bouts. Working on houses is something I prefer to stay away from. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Paul, > > I am in the same boat as you....I have a long list of things to do since I am currently rebuilding the house as well as the boat. I am probably closer to a year before I get back in the water. My boat is in New Plymouth where it is less than boater friendly. I don't have any immediate offshore plans and I have nowhere to keep the boat here when I re-launch. You have to kill somebody to get a mooring here. > > I take your point with Ben. Glad we are providing some amusement. > > Cheers, Paul | 17023|16968|2008-03-28 22:50:07|Paul Wilson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Will do. If you are ever get to New Plymouth, let me know. Cheers, Paul Hi Paul, Thanks for the note. Yes New Plymouth is well known as not the boater friendliest place in NZ. Should you come up to Auckland sometime, please let me know and we could get together to sink a few and have a jawing session. I always enjoy talking about bouts. Working on houses is something I prefer to stay away from. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17024|16968|2008-03-29 00:00:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 01:19:32PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hey Ben, > > I have an experiment for you to try as well. Take a bronze depth > sounder transducer. Hold it above your head and look straight up at > it so you are looking at the bottom of it. Make sure you don't drop > it because you don't want to hurt the transducer. What material do > you see? I don't think it will be bronze. I assure you that it is indeed bronze - unless you sneaked in and replaced it while I wasn't looking. About two years ago, when I needed a replacement transducer for my own depth sounder, I got really familiar with all the transducers that the local used marine stuff place, "Sailors Exchange", had in stock - several dozen of them, that is. Most of them were all black plastic; some were bronze with a black plastic insert on the bottom (and a potted top, where the cable came out) - and some (I realize this is going to be an awful disappointment to you, but *please* don't take all those sleeping pills, it's _really_ not worth it!) were bronze all the way around, except for that potted top. It took a bit of looking around on the Net, but here's an example of a solid metal-cased (stainless steel, in this case) transducer, showing the fully-covered face (the ITC-9093): http://tinyurl.com/36rd77 (Please leave that halyard alone, too; 13-turn lanyard knots are no longer fashionable neckwear.) > Now outside, by the bike racks, after school. Oh yeah? All right, wise guy, if you're not there at *exactly* 5:00 p.m., I'll tell everybody you're a sissy! ("To the leader of the meanest gang in the area: you and your homeboys are punks, and I'll whip all of you single-handed. I'll see you all by the bike rack outside the school at 5:00pm - jerks!") Heh. :) One of my favorite stories, from the days when I was teaching pistol shooting, is about Bill Jordan - one of the fastest pistol shooters in the world, and a Texas Border Patrolman for many years. There were lots of people who promised to rain hellfire on Bill when they got out of the prison where he had put them, so one day, when a neighbor of his saw him sitting on his porch with a 44 Magnum in his lap, he asked, "Bill, are you expecting trouble?" Bill Jordan's response was "Nope. If I was expecting trouble, I'd have brought my long gun." > All kidding aside, we aren't talking about movie stars or something > totally trivial like many other websites. People's safety and hard > earned money is involved and they need to make the right decisions. > Jim sounded as if he was going to go ahead and mount his transducer > inside his steel hull based on what you told him. In my opinion, I > think it would be a mistake to do so in a permanent installation and > nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. You tried it once and > got a depth sounder to read to 120 feet. Good info but I don't think > it proves that it is the right way to go, so I said so. This is why I suggested testing it. That turns it from trusting someone else's experience into a go/no-go decision based on solid information. It may well be that my experience was a fluke (or a flounder, or maybe a halibut), or that the boat had very thin plating - or it could be that I'm just ego-tripping or lying and hoping to sink someone's boat (?) by getting them to do it my way... you just never know, right? Until you do a test, that is. > Lest this degenerate/generate further, may I suggest we agree to > disagree. It's really nothing personal, if we actually meet one day, > I will buy the first round. I'm good with that, Paul, as long as you let me buy the second. :) I really don't take someone disagreeing with me or being opinionated as an indication that they're a horrible person; I just don't take either confidence or diffidence as a factor in technical decisions. But I do prefer confident and positive people as friends. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17025|16968|2008-03-29 11:50:04|theboilerflue|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|I remember somewhere seeing a diagram some one had made for a transducer for a steel hull it was just a pipe welded to the hull capped with the transducer inside and filled with mineral oil to cupple the transducer to the hull asuming there is no voil in the steel and the transducer would shooty through it, it should work. When i worked testing rail for the railroad our transducers were in these six inch rubber tires, they rolled along the track with us they were we filled with some kind of very thin oil, really thin almost like water but greasy. for the life of me i can't remember what i was called now.| 17026|16968|2008-03-29 14:16:41|Aaron Williams|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|What do we think the US Navy would use on the ships or Subs or any other contry? Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 7:50:02 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer I remember somewhere seeing a diagram some one had made for a transducer for a steel hull it was just a pipe welded to the hull capped with the transducer inside and filled with mineral oil to cupple the transducer to the hull asuming there is no voil in the steel and the transducer would shooty through it, it should work. When i worked testing rail for the railroad our transducers were in these six inch rubber tires, they rolled along the track with us they were we filled with some kind of very thin oil, really thin almost like water but greasy. for the life of me i can't remember what i was called now. ____________________________________________________________________________________ OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends:Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text2.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17027|16968|2008-03-29 15:18:49|Ben Okopnik|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 03:50:02PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > I remember somewhere seeing a diagram some one had made for a > transducer for a steel hull it was just a pipe welded to the hull > capped with the transducer inside and filled with mineral oil to cupple > the transducer to the hull asuming there is no voil in the steel and > the transducer would shooty through it, it should work. When i worked > testing rail for the railroad our transducers were in these six inch > rubber tires, they rolled along the track with us they were we filled > with some kind of very thin oil, really thin almost like water but > greasy. for the life of me i can't remember what i was called now. Jojoba oil, possibly? That's the stuff that killed off the whale oil industry, if I recall correctly - had pretty much the same properties, and was much, much cheaper to produce. It's still used for lubricating fine mechanical movements (e.g., watches) - a use for which whale oil used to be considered irreplaceable. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17028|16968|2008-03-29 15:45:21|Aaron Williams|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|I think any light mineral oil will work for couplant as long there are no bubbles, the air stops the sound pulse dead. What you will see on the screen is black spots or stripes. Unless one has a color system. In my new job I am getting training with ultrasound testing for pipe thickness readings, Some it it just starting to make more since. The basic principles are the same. The frequencies are different and the view screens are different. The biggest problem would be knowing the velocity of sound transfer through the steel and the refraction caused ( just like a straw in a glass of water) from the velocity change when the sound passes into the water. The same thing applies on the return trip. Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 11:24:33 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 03:50:02PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > I remember somewhere seeing a diagram some one had made for a > transducer for a steel hull it was just a pipe welded to the hull > capped with the transducer inside and filled with mineral oil to cupple > the transducer to the hull asuming there is no voil in the steel and > the transducer would shooty through it, it should work. When i worked > testing rail for the railroad our transducers were in these six inch > rubber tires, they rolled along the track with us they were we filled > with some kind of very thin oil, really thin almost like water but > greasy. for the life of me i can't remember what i was called now. Jojoba oil, possibly? That's the stuff that killed off the whale oil industry, if I recall correctly - had pretty much the same properties, and was much, much cheaper to produce. It's still used for lubricating fine mechanical movements (e.g., watches) - a use for which whale oil used to be considered irreplaceable. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends:Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text2.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17029|16968|2008-03-29 16:20:09|Paul Wilson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Well said, Ben. Now on to the next thread! Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:06:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 01:19:32PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hey Ben, > > I have an experiment for you to try as well. Take a bronze depth > sounder transducer. Hold it above your head and look straight up at > it so you are looking at the bottom of it. Make sure you don't drop > it because you don't want to hurt the transducer. What material do > you see? I don't think it will be bronze. I assure you that it is indeed bronze - unless you sneaked in and replaced it while I wasn't looking. About two years ago, when I needed a replacement transducer for my own depth sounder, I got really familiar with all the transducers that the local used marine stuff place, "Sailors Exchange", had in stock - several dozen of them, that is. Most of them were all black plastic; some were bronze with a black plastic insert on the bottom (and a potted top, where the cable came out) - and some (I realize this is going to be an awful disappointment to you, but *please* don't take all those sleeping pills, it's _really_ not worth it!) were bronze all the way around, except for that potted top. It took a bit of looking around on the Net, but here's an example of a solid metal-cased (stainless steel, in this case) transducer, showing the fully-covered face (the ITC-9093): http://tinyurl. com/36rd77 (Please leave that halyard alone, too; 13-turn lanyard knots are no longer fashionable neckwear.) > Now outside, by the bike racks, after school. Oh yeah? All right, wise guy, if you're not there at *exactly* 5:00 p.m., I'll tell everybody you're a sissy! ("To the leader of the meanest gang in the area: you and your homeboys are punks, and I'll whip all of you single-handed. I'll see you all by the bike rack outside the school at 5:00pm - jerks!") Heh. :) One of my favorite stories, from the days when I was teaching pistol shooting, is about Bill Jordan - one of the fastest pistol shooters in the world, and a Texas Border Patrolman for many years. There were lots of people who promised to rain hellfire on Bill when they got out of the prison where he had put them, so one day, when a neighbor of his saw him sitting on his porch with a 44 Magnum in his lap, he asked, "Bill, are you expecting trouble?" Bill Jordan's response was "Nope. If I was expecting trouble, I'd have brought my long gun." > All kidding aside, we aren't talking about movie stars or something > totally trivial like many other websites. People's safety and hard > earned money is involved and they need to make the right decisions. > Jim sounded as if he was going to go ahead and mount his transducer > inside his steel hull based on what you told him. In my opinion, I > think it would be a mistake to do so in a permanent installation and > nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. You tried it once and > got a depth sounder to read to 120 feet. Good info but I don't think > it proves that it is the right way to go, so I said so. This is why I suggested testing it. That turns it from trusting someone else's experience into a go/no-go decision based on solid information. It may well be that my experience was a fluke (or a flounder, or maybe a halibut), or that the boat had very thin plating - or it could be that I'm just ego-tripping or lying and hoping to sink someone's boat (?) by getting them to do it my way... you just never know, right? Until you do a test, that is. > Lest this degenerate/generate further, may I suggest we agree to > disagree. It's really nothing personal, if we actually meet one day, > I will buy the first round. I'm good with that, Paul, as long as you let me buy the second. :) I really don't take someone disagreeing with me or being opinionated as an indication that they're a horrible person; I just don't take either confidence or diffidence as a factor in technical decisions. But I do prefer confident and positive people as friends. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends:Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text2.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17030|17030|2008-03-29 16:21:06|jameshawk99|cost of plate alloys|Does anyone have any info for ontario suppliers for 1/4 " 5086 , 20' by 8' 6 peices, and six 6' by 12' of 5052 3/16 thick. Just trying to get costs down. Building in Ontario. thanks----Jim| 17031|17031|2008-03-29 21:15:14|Gary H. Lucas|Bought a boat|Well, I'll be about a hundred years old before I get the metal boat I want, so I bought a fiberglass one. I bought a 1985 Etap 26. It's built like a Boston Whaler, double hulled and foamed in between. So if you don't catch fire, or get run down by a freighter it is pretty unsinkable. With the seacocks open it fills with about 18 inches of water but stays afloat. The retractable keel is quite impressive. It is driven up and down by a large screw, and is powered. The keel is cast iron, air foil shaped and has a huge airfoil shaped bulb at the end. The boat draws 5 feet with it down, 3 feet 3" when up. I am very impressed with the engineering that went into this boat. This is the first fiberglass boat I have seen where every hatch is gasketed, even the companion way boards! Nice simple, easily replaced, gaskets too. Because the boat is foamed the interior doesn't sweat, so it is very good shape. It has a Volvo sail drive under the cockpit floor, and again well gasketed. Screw it all, I'mm going sailing! Gary H. Lucas| 17032|17031|2008-03-30 02:54:28|T & D Cain|Re: Bought a boat|Congratulations Gary, The sailing part is the icing on the cake or the cream on the coffee --- whatever you like! Don't forget the mob on origami. When you have a spare few minutes and the tools are to hand, keep the group informed as you have in the past. Your knowledge of practical welding matters and the associated metal fabrication processes is worth passing on. Have lots of fun and fair winds enough to keep you on the water. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Sunday, 30 March 2008 10:45 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Bought a boat Well, I'll be about a hundred years old before I get the metal boat I want, so I bought a fiberglass one. I bought a 1985 Etap 26. It's built like a Boston Whaler, double hulled and foamed in between. So if you don't catch fire, or get run down by a freighter it is pretty unsinkable. With the seacocks open it fills with about 18 inches of water but stays afloat. The retractable keel is quite impressive. It is driven up and down by a large screw, and is powered. The keel is cast iron, air foil shaped and has a huge airfoil shaped bulb at the end. The boat draws 5 feet with it down, 3 feet 3" when up. I am very impressed with the engineering that went into this boat. This is the first fiberglass boat I have seen where every hatch is gasketed, even the companion way boards! Nice simple, easily replaced, gaskets too. Because the boat is foamed the interior doesn't sweat, so it is very good shape. It has a Volvo sail drive under the cockpit floor, and again well gasketed. Screw it all, I'mm going sailing! Gary H. Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17033|17033|2008-03-30 08:53:44|jameshawk99|Going aluminum alloy route|Just tired of sweating the upkeep of a rusting hull. Spent too much money fighting the neverending grinding and sandblasting and painting. Many have wonderful steel boats, bless you, just not doing it again. I don't mind the shiny scratched up look of pure aluminum without paint, it will have the workboat look, I don't care a bit. I'm going to live aboard something that won't have the look of bleeding rust like someone just slit it's throat. Jim| 17034|17033|2008-03-30 12:05:56|James|Re: Going aluminum alloy route|Jim-- i`m not clear on this , did you build a steel hull yourself , or buy someone else`s rust heap ? Ali is a worry to me , electrolysis more than galvanic worries , and a repair could be an expensive nightmare if needed. I`m keen on steel , and hope to prepare the hull sufficiently ( a la Moitessier ) to have few rust worries later on . I hope ! james , scotland On 3/30/08, jameshawk99 wrote: > > Just tired of sweating the upkeep of a rusting hull. Spent too much > money fighting the neverending grinding and sandblasting and painting. > Many have wonderful steel boats, bless you, just not doing it again. > I don't mind the shiny scratched up look of pure aluminum without > paint, it will have the workboat look, I don't care a bit. I'm going to > live aboard something that won't have the look of bleeding rust like > someone just slit it's throat. > > Jim > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17035|17033|2008-03-30 12:16:40|martin demers|Re: Going aluminum alloy route|What do you mean by "a la Moitessier"? Is it a better treatment for steel? Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jimmiestan@... > Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:05:54 +0100 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Going aluminum alloy route > > > Jim-- i`m not clear on this , did you build a steel hull yourself , or buy > someone else`s rust heap ? Ali is a worry to me , electrolysis more than > galvanic worries , and a repair could be an expensive nightmare if needed. > I`m keen on steel , and hope to prepare the hull sufficiently ( a la > Moitessier ) to have few rust worries later on . I hope ! james , scotland > > On 3/30/08, jameshawk99> wrote: >> >> Just tired of sweating the upkeep of a rusting hull. Spent too much >> money fighting the neverending grinding and sandblasting and painting. >> Many have wonderful steel boats, bless you, just not doing it again. >> I don't mind the shiny scratched up look of pure aluminum without >> paint, it will have the workboat look, I don't care a bit. I'm going to >> live aboard something that won't have the look of bleeding rust like >> someone just slit it's throat. >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________ Envoie un sourire, fair rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/209| 17036|17033|2008-03-30 12:23:21|James|Re: Going aluminum alloy route|Probably -- can`t just now remember the precise stuff Bernard Moitessier slapped on the hull of "Joshua" , could look it up , something like red lead made in france ( of course ) which seemed to really work on his round the world "trip" . james On 3/30/08, martin demers wrote: > > > What do you mean by "a la Moitessier"? > Is it a better treatment for steel? > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: jimmiestan@... > > Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:05:54 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Going aluminum alloy route > > > > > > Jim-- i`m not clear on this , did you build a steel hull yourself , or > buy > > someone else`s rust heap ? Ali is a worry to me , electrolysis more than > > galvanic worries , and a repair could be an expensive nightmare if > needed. > > I`m keen on steel , and hope to prepare the hull sufficiently ( a la > > Moitessier ) to have few rust worries later on . I hope ! james , > scotland > > > > On 3/30/08, jameshawk99> wrote: > >> > >> Just tired of sweating the upkeep of a rusting hull. Spent too much > >> money fighting the neverending grinding and sandblasting and painting. > >> Many have wonderful steel boats, bless you, just not doing it again. > >> I don't mind the shiny scratched up look of pure aluminum without > >> paint, it will have the workboat look, I don't care a bit. I'm going to > >> live aboard something that won't have the look of bleeding rust like > >> someone just slit it's throat. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Envoie un sourire, fair rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > http://g.msn.ca/ca55/209 > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17037|17030|2008-03-30 12:47:21|James Pronk|Re: cost of plate alloys|Hello Jim Were in Ontario are you? I am gathering bits and peices to start a BS 36. I had a big set back two weeks ago when my shop was broken into and my welder, plasma cutter, 6 disk grinders and a number of other tools were stolen. I will see what I can come up with from my material suppliers, James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jameshawk99" wrote: > > Does anyone have any info for ontario suppliers for 1/4 " 5086 , 20' by > 8' 6 peices, and six 6' by 12' of 5052 3/16 thick. Just trying to > get costs down. Building in Ontario. > > thanks----Jim > | 17038|16968|2008-03-30 19:58:10|peter_d_wiley|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|In my past job I had a great deal of experience with high power transducers. Without exception they were in sea chests and their faces were exposed to the water column, sometimes with lexan or LDPE covers over the faces. However we are talking about transducers with power outputs in the kilowatt range and ranges exceeding 6000m. Not toy ones. No transducer IME has a steel plate cover. Some were immersed in mineral oil but we found it a lot less hassle to vent the sea chests well and just have them immersed in sea water. The reason was mainly the ability to have divers swap them over as it was impossible to do this with oil filled sea chests. Entrained air is a problem and needs to be considered. That, and smashing $10K transducers on ice chunks, is why we used LDPE or lexan covers, even though both degraded the signals somewhat. While I don't doubt Ben's results in mounting one inside a steel hull, I would never do this myself. I think it is a bad idea. A small sea chest - a capped steel pipe, for example - is a much better approach. That's how I plan on mounting mine. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > What do we think the US Navy would use on the ships or Subs or any other contry? > Aaron > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: theboilerflue > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 7:50:02 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer > > I remember somewhere seeing a diagram some one had made for a > transducer for a steel hull it was just a pipe welded to the hull > capped with the transducer inside and filled with mineral oil to cupple > the transducer to the hull asuming there is no voil in the steel and > the transducer would shooty through it, it should work. When i worked > testing rail for the railroad our transducers were in these six inch > rubber tires, they rolled along the track with us they were we filled > with some kind of very thin oil, really thin almost like water but > greasy. for the life of me i can't remember what i was called now. > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends:Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text2.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17039|16968|2008-03-30 23:37:06|Ben Okopnik|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 11:58:06PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > However we are talking about transducers with power outputs in the > kilowatt range and ranges exceeding 6000m. Not toy ones. Just so we're not comparing apples and oranges - the standard fish finder transducers are putting out anywhere between 600W and 2kW. I'm sure that digging into how they come up with those numbers would be amusing, but that's what the manufacturers claim. > No transducer IME has a steel plate cover. Most transducer pics on the Net are shown from above - i.e., you can't see the face - but here's one with an SS face: http://tinyurl.com/36rd77 > While I don't doubt Ben's results in mounting one inside a steel hull, > I would never do this myself. I think it is a bad idea. A small sea > chest - a capped steel pipe, for example - is a much better approach. > That's how I plan on mounting mine. Note that I've never claimed this method to be superior, or preferred, or even equivalent to mounting it the standard way. The only thing I've said is that it can be done, and that I've done it. If I had a boat in the water, no money to haul it, no existing through-hull for a transducer, and desperately wanted to install a depth sounder (all of which applied in the case where I did this), I'd definitely want to have this method available. If you're building a boat, and don't need to concern yourself with any of the above, then - of course - doing an installation that's going to reduce the signal strength to any degree would make no sense. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17040|17040|2008-03-31 06:10:55|edward_stoneuk|Wood treatment|In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred treatment of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? What is the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of these? All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. Regards, Ted| 17041|17033|2008-03-31 08:11:20|pynrc@aol.com|Going aluminum alloy route|Jim, Steel boats properly prepared in the first place should not be like that. I've had mine for 20 years now and only spend a week or so a year touching up bits and pieces. If its a good boat it may pay to have a proper gritblasting and painting job done. Regards, Richard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17042|17040|2008-03-31 08:35:32|James|Re: Wood treatment|Although the inside of your finished boat should remain pretty dry , water does find it`s way down below sometimes , and i would prefer to use pressure treated softwood from a timber yard . btw , where in uk are you ? Jim , Scotland On 3/31/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred treatment > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? What is > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of > these? > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. > > Regards, > Ted > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17043|17043|2008-03-31 08:56:04|Martin Demers|coal tar epoxy primer|Hi, does anyone have experience with coal tar epoxy? did you have good result? do you apply under water line or the complete hull? Thanks, Martin.| 17044|17044|2008-03-31 11:29:18|jameshawk99|Going the aluminum alloy route|Near Toronto, haven't found a yard yet to begin building the aluminum alloy origami. Right now drawing and getting set up with welding supplies. Anywhere from Belleville to Hamilton, inbetween would suffice. Once the shell is watertight and shaft prop, and tiller then will move it closer to where I live. The steel hull wasn't well built, it's gone. I am more content with aluminum, I have a background in alloys, casting etc. and corrosion is not a problem if one has forethought and zinc anodes placed correctly. Sacrifices of the hull itself will not be an issue if all circuits are put in correctly without shoddy grounding. Even with steel, a well documented new steel was sunk within a week of launch , sunk right at the dock because of poor electrical grounding.( U.K. ) Jim| 17045|17044|2008-03-31 12:37:57|edward_stoneuk|Re: Going the aluminum alloy route|Hi Jim, Sunk within a week seems a bit fierce. Is there web info on it? Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jameshawk99" wrote: > > Near Toronto, haven't found a yard yet to begin building the aluminum > alloy origami. Right now drawing and getting set up with welding > supplies. Anywhere from Belleville to Hamilton, inbetween would > suffice. Once the shell is watertight and shaft prop, and tiller then > will move it closer to where I live. > The steel hull wasn't well built, it's gone. > I am more content with aluminum, I have a background in alloys, > casting etc. and corrosion is not a problem if one has forethought and > zinc anodes placed correctly. Sacrifices of the hull itself will not > be an issue if all circuits are put in correctly without shoddy > grounding. > Even with steel, a well documented new steel was sunk within a week of > launch , sunk right at the dock because of poor electrical grounding.( > U.K. ) > > Jim > | 17046|17044|2008-03-31 12:51:58|martin demers|Re: Going the aluminum alloy route|Hi Jim, when you say a steel hull sunk because of poor grounding, do you mean the weld were not done properly? I just bought a steel boat that I will have to fix, so I try to collect all the info I can! Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: tedstone@... > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:37:54 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Going the aluminum alloy route > > > Hi Jim, > > Sunk within a week seems a bit fierce. Is there web info on it? > > Regards, > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jameshawk99" > wrote: >> >> Near Toronto, haven't found a yard yet to begin building the > aluminum >> alloy origami. Right now drawing and getting set up with welding >> supplies. Anywhere from Belleville to Hamilton, inbetween would >> suffice. Once the shell is watertight and shaft prop, and tiller > then >> will move it closer to where I live. >> The steel hull wasn't well built, it's gone. >> I am more content with aluminum, I have a background in alloys, >> casting etc. and corrosion is not a problem if one has forethought > and >> zinc anodes placed correctly. Sacrifices of the hull itself will > not >> be an issue if all circuits are put in correctly without shoddy >> grounding. >> Even with steel, a well documented new steel was sunk within a > week of >> launch , sunk right at the dock because of poor electrical > grounding.( >> U.K. ) >> >> Jim >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ Pars à la recherche pour gagner une Eclipse Spyder 2008! Cliquez ici pour participer! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/218| 17047|17044|2008-03-31 14:06:12|James Pronk|Re: Going the aluminum alloy route|Hello Jim Are you looking for a shop to build it in and are you thinking about a BS 36? James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jameshawk99" wrote: > > Near Toronto, haven't found a yard yet to begin building the aluminum > alloy origami. Right now drawing and getting set up with welding > supplies. Anywhere from Belleville to Hamilton, inbetween would > suffice. Once the shell is watertight and shaft prop, and tiller then > will move it closer to where I live. > The steel hull wasn't well built, it's gone. > I am more content with aluminum, I have a background in alloys, > casting etc. and corrosion is not a problem if one has forethought and > zinc anodes placed correctly. Sacrifices of the hull itself will not > be an issue if all circuits are put in correctly without shoddy > grounding. > Even with steel, a well documented new steel was sunk within a week of > launch , sunk right at the dock because of poor electrical grounding.( > U.K. ) > > Jim > | 17048|17043|2008-03-31 16:22:59|Carl Anderson|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|Martin, You should seal all the steel inside and out with something like that. I used Wasser tar urethane. Didn't you see it in my web site? Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Martin Demers wrote: > > > Hi, > does anyone have experience with coal tar epoxy? did you have good result? > do you apply under water line or the complete hull? > > Thanks, Martin. > | 17049|17043|2008-03-31 17:40:51|mauro gonzaga|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|I applied epoxy tar underwater. It is durable and thick. Not suitable above the water. mauro Martin Demers wrote: Hi, does anyone have experience with coal tar epoxy? did you have good result? do you apply under water line or the complete hull? Thanks, Martin. --------------------------------- No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal for Yahoo! users and friends. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17050|16968|2008-03-31 18:14:58|peter_d_wiley|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 11:58:06PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > However we are talking about transducers with power outputs in the > > kilowatt range and ranges exceeding 6000m. Not toy ones. > > Just so we're not comparing apples and oranges - the standard fish > finder transducers are putting out anywhere between 600W and 2kW. I'm > sure that digging into how they come up with those numbers would be > amusing, but that's what the manufacturers claim. Heh. My transducers cost in excess of $10K USD each and weighed kilograms. The 12KHz one weighed 50+ kg. They're basically high power ceramic magnets. I used to have a 12KHz, a 38KHz, a 120/200 KHz split beam and a couple of 200KHz units, all looking for different things. The 12 was for deep bottom detection, most of the others were for detecting things in the water column. > > > No transducer IME has a steel plate cover. > > Most transducer pics on the Net are shown from above - i.e., you can't > see the face - but here's one with an SS face: > > http://tinyurl.com/36rd77 I just looked at the specs of that unit. It's rated for ultrasonics in *air* not water and it masses 10g. It doesn't say anything about its ability to transmit a signal from its front face *through a steel plate* mounted in front of it and get any sort of return, which is what I meant by a steel cover. See http://www.echomastermarine.co.uk/transducers/manufacturer/Simrad.html for transducers designed for the marine environment. None of them have a steel front face. They're basically ceramic magnets embedded in an epoxy compound with a potted cable coming out the back. I used to use the dead ones as doorstops. I have a coffee table at home with a crazed Lexan top, ex sea chest lid that took a few impacts too many. If you look closely you can see the fractures right through the 40mm thickness and the mineral deposits that are trapped in the fractures. It came out of an icebreaker hull. > > While I don't doubt Ben's results in mounting one inside a steel hull, > > I would never do this myself. I think it is a bad idea. A small sea > > chest - a capped steel pipe, for example - is a much better approach. > > That's how I plan on mounting mine. > > Note that I've never claimed this method to be superior, or preferred, > or even equivalent to mounting it the standard way. The only thing I've > said is that it can be done, and that I've done it. If I had a boat in > the water, no money to haul it, no existing through-hull for a > transducer, and desperately wanted to install a depth sounder (all of > which applied in the case where I did this), I'd definitely want to have > this method available. If you're building a boat, and don't need to > concern yourself with any of the above, then - of course - doing an > installation that's going to reduce the signal strength to any degree > would make no sense. The last time I went to dry dock it cost $78K to install a new blister-type sea chest into a 6500 tonne vessel and that was independent of the cost of sitting in the dock as the ship was there anyway. If we could have shot the beam through the hull plate from an internal mount, we would have. Money wasn't the issue. I am surprised that you got a usable signal through steel plate from a consumer level product like that. However, the universe is an amazing place and I guess all the planets were aligned perfectly. Alternatively, there was a nice rust erosion spot there and you were basically shooting through a paint layer. I think you were lucky because what you say contradicts every scientific & engineering installation I've ever seen and I spent some 28 years playing on research ships including 6 years running a marine science engineering R&D support group. Personally if the water is more than 50m deep (I'd argue for 10) I don't really care since I'm not going to hit anything and with GPS, nearshore (not close coastal) navigation using water depth as an indicator is more of an interesting historical technique than really needed. So provided one can calibrate the thing adequately, a degraded strength signal is fine. The less electronics aboard, the better. If it's not there, you won't rely on it and it can't break. In a shoal draft hull, a 3m stick is perfectly satisfactory for dirty water. I'm semi-retired now and the less I see of complicated stuff, the happier I am. PDW| 17051|16968|2008-03-31 19:31:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:14:54PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > Most transducer pics on the Net are shown from above - i.e., you can't > > see the face - but here's one with an SS face: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/36rd77 > > I just looked at the specs of that unit. It's rated for ultrasonics in > *air* not water and it masses 10g. It doesn't say anything about its > ability to transmit a signal from its front face *through a steel > plate* mounted in front of it and get any sort of return, which is > what I meant by a steel cover. Regardless of what you meant - as opposed to what you actually expressed - I was responding to the absolute claims that there's no such thing as a transducer with a metal face. At this point, I'm tired of repeating what I have to say on this issue. Nothing to do with you, Peter; I just have much more important things to do. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17052|17040|2008-03-31 21:54:35|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Wood treatment|In the US and many places the chemecals in PT wood have changed and are very acidic to most all steels. Copertox or Glycal (non friendly antifreez) coating and painting or epoxy is a better idea. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > Although the inside of your finished boat should remain pretty dry , water > does find it`s way down below sometimes , and i would prefer to use pressure > treated softwood from a timber yard . btw , where in uk are you ? Jim , > Scotland | 17053|17043|2008-04-01 18:54:35|brentswain38|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|I use epoxy tar everywhere , both below and above water , inside and out . No problem. My book gives tips for using epoxy tar. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > I applied epoxy tar underwater. It is durable and thick. Not suitable above the water. mauro > > Martin Demers wrote: Hi, > does anyone have experience with coal tar epoxy? did you have good result? > do you apply under water line or the complete hull? > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal for Yahoo! users and friends. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17054|17033|2008-04-01 18:56:57|brentswain38|Re: Going aluminum alloy route|I spend about an hour or two a year on maintenance. My original paintjob is 24 years old and I've never had to sandblast. Sounds like you are doing something very wrong. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jameshawk99" wrote: > > Just tired of sweating the upkeep of a rusting hull. Spent too much > money fighting the neverending grinding and sandblasting and painting. > Many have wonderful steel boats, bless you, just not doing it again. > I don't mind the shiny scratched up look of pure aluminum without > paint, it will have the workboat look, I don't care a bit. I'm going to > live aboard something that won't have the look of bleeding rust like > someone just slit it's throat. > > Jim > | 17055|17033|2008-04-01 20:08:50|brentswain38|Re: Going aluminum alloy route|Cold galvanizinbg primer called "Dox Anode," similar to interzinc. Carboweld, or most inorganic zinc cold galv primers. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > Probably -- can`t just now remember the precise stuff Bernard Moitessier > slapped on the hull of "Joshua" , could look it up , something like red lead > made in france ( of course ) which seemed to really work on his round the > world "trip" . james > > On 3/30/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > What do you mean by "a la Moitessier"? > > Is it a better treatment for steel? > > > > Martin > > ________________________________ > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: jimmiestan@... > > > Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:05:54 +0100 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Going aluminum alloy route > > > > > > > > > Jim-- i`m not clear on this , did you build a steel hull yourself , or > > buy > > > someone else`s rust heap ? Ali is a worry to me , electrolysis more than > > > galvanic worries , and a repair could be an expensive nightmare if > > needed. > > > I`m keen on steel , and hope to prepare the hull sufficiently ( a la > > > Moitessier ) to have few rust worries later on . I hope ! james , > > scotland > > > > > > On 3/30/08, jameshawk99> wrote: > > >> > > >> Just tired of sweating the upkeep of a rusting hull. Spent too much > > >> money fighting the neverending grinding and sandblasting and painting. > > >> Many have wonderful steel boats, bless you, just not doing it again. > > >> I don't mind the shiny scratched up look of pure aluminum without > > >> paint, it will have the workboat look, I don't care a bit. I'm going to > > >> live aboard something that won't have the look of bleeding rust like > > >> someone just slit it's throat. > > >> > > >> Jim > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------ > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Envoie un sourire, fair rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > > http://g.msn.ca/ca55/209 > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17056|17043|2008-04-01 20:27:51|martin demers|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|Hi Brent, Someone just told me today that coal tar epoxy remains sticky and messy even after it is dry and that it is hard to remove if you have to weld or fix your hull and that paint dont stick very well to it. I found some coal tar epoxy from many suppliers; Hempel, Devoe, Simco. Maby some are better than others? Now I dont know what to think, there are does that swear by it and does that dont like it. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 22:01:28 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: coal tar epoxy primer > > > I use epoxy tar everywhere , both below and above water , inside and > out . No problem. My book gives tips for using epoxy tar. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga > wrote: >> >> I applied epoxy tar underwater. It is durable and thick. Not > suitable above the water. mauro >> >> Martin Demers wrote: Hi, >> does anyone have experience with coal tar epoxy? did you have good > result? >> do you apply under water line or the complete hull? >> >> Thanks, Martin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal > for Yahoo! users and friends. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ Trouvez vos infos rapidement et précisément avec Windows Live Instant Search ! Essayez-le maintenant! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/220| 17057|17040|2008-04-02 10:43:30|Carl Anderson|Re: Wood treatment|Ted, I have used shellac as the base primer on most all of the interior wood in Moonflower. This is from the advise of tony Lyon who has put interiors in over 100 boats. I used a product called BIN which is white pigmented so you can see the coverage. Shellac is non-toxic and somewhat waterproof once dried. I plan on covering this with paint once the interior is completed. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred treatment > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? What is > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of > these? > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. > > Regards, > Ted > > | 17058|17058|2008-04-02 16:02:20|Martin Demers|Brent boats interior pictures|Hi, I think it would be a good idea to add some interior layout pictures of some BS boats in the photo section of the group, just to give some ideas when building our own! Martin.| 17059|17040|2008-04-02 21:38:11|Tom Mann|Re: Wood treatment|Hello Ted I have been considering coating all the interior wood with 2 coats of epoxy resin then paint or varnish. This seems to be the method they use in wood contruction to seal and protect the wood on the inside. Tom On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 3:10 AM, edward_stoneuk wrote: > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred treatment > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? What is > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of > these? > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17060|17043|2008-04-02 22:03:33|martin demers|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|Hi Carl, I saw you applied tar but I didn't read about you using wasser tar urethane. I had a look at their web site do you think it is as superior to coal tar epoxy as they claim! Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: cwa@... > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:22:00 -0600 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] coal tar epoxy primer > > > Martin, > > You should seal all the steel inside and out with something like that. > I used Wasser tar urethane. > Didn't you see it in my web site? > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > Martin Demers wrote: >> >> >> Hi, >> does anyone have experience with coal tar epoxy? did you have good result? >> do you apply under water line or the complete hull? >> >> Thanks, Martin. >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ Trouvez vos infos rapidement et précisément avec Windows Live Instant Search ! Essayez-le maintenant! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/220| 17061|17043|2008-04-03 12:25:08|Carl Anderson|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|Martin, Only time will tell about its longevity. It would seem that a urethane based tar paint would be better than a epoxy based tar paint for water proofing as epoxy is not 100% water resistant (contrary to popular belief). Carl martin demers wrote: > > > > Hi Carl, > I saw you applied tar but I didn't read about you using wasser tar > urethane. I had a look at their web site do you think it is as superior > to coal tar epoxy as they claim! > > Martin. | 17062|17043|2008-04-03 12:39:42|martin demers|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|Carl, a paint retailer told me 2 days ago that urethane dont go in water, maybe there are different kinds of urethane! Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: cwa@... > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:24:30 -0600 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] coal tar epoxy primer > > > Martin, > > Only time will tell about its longevity. > It would seem that a urethane based tar paint would be better than a > epoxy based tar paint for water proofing as epoxy is not 100% water > resistant (contrary to popular belief). > > Carl > > martin demers wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Carl, >> I saw you applied tar but I didn't read about you using wasser tar >> urethane. I had a look at their web site do you think it is as superior >> to coal tar epoxy as they claim! >> >> Martin. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Trouvez vos infos rapidement et précisément avec Windows Live Instant Search ! Essayez-le maintenant! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/220| 17063|17043|2008-04-03 15:11:45|martin demers|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|Some paint supplier told me that coal tar epoxy is old technology and it is now replace by some newer epoxy with high content of solids. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 22:01:28 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: coal tar epoxy primer > > > I use epoxy tar everywhere , both below and above water , inside and > out . No problem. My book gives tips for using epoxy tar. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga > wrote: >> >> I applied epoxy tar underwater. It is durable and thick. Not > suitable above the water. mauro >> >> Martin Demers wrote: Hi, >> does anyone have experience with coal tar epoxy? did you have good > result? >> do you apply under water line or the complete hull? >> >> Thanks, Martin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal > for Yahoo! users and friends. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ Branchez-vous à Windows Live Messenger et inscrivez-vous afin de courir la chance de gagner 1000$ chaque jour jusqu’au 12 mai. Visitez connectezetgagnez.ca http://g.msn.ca/ca55/221| 17064|16991|2008-04-03 15:12:06|Darren Bos|Re: Argo - the complete story|Compare the 2007 satellite photo of ice coverage to the routes of the early explorers you provided. Ice extent has decreased so much that it is no longer necessary to go between Banks and Victoria islands, you can just go over Banks Island!!! Things would have ended very differently for the Franklin expedition had they tried the northwest passage in 2007. http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/2007-9201.jpg http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm Darren At 04:19 PM 27/03/2008, you wrote: >It is not like it is the first time and before we didn't have all the >man made CO2 to use as a cause. >http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm > >Jon > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"brentswain38" >wrote: > > > > There is absolutely no doubt that the arctic ocean ice is declining > > drastically. > > Brent > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17065|16991|2008-04-03 17:57:19|brentswain38|Re: Argo - the complete story|The shrtest route by far is not thru Canadian waters, but over the pole , up the east side of Greenland directly to Bering Strait. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Compare the 2007 satellite photo of ice coverage to the routes of the > early explorers you provided. Ice extent has decreased so much that > it is no longer necessary to go between Banks and Victoria islands, > you can just go over Banks Island!!! Things would have ended very > differently for the Franklin expedition had they tried the northwest > passage in 2007. > > http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/2007-9201.jpg > http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm > > Darren > > At 04:19 PM 27/03/2008, you wrote: > > >It is not like it is the first time and before we didn't have all the > >man made CO2 to use as a cause. > >http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm > > > >Jon > > > >--- In > >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > >"brentswain38" > >wrote: > > > > > > There is absolutely no doubt that the arctic ocean ice is declining > > > drastically. > > > Brent > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17066|17043|2008-04-03 18:02:12|brentswain38|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|Friends who used the new"high tech" stuff said one coat of epoxy Tar is like 5 coats of the new stuff when it comes to protection. As I've always had a few bilsters with epoxy tar, I'd use interprotect 2000E, with epoxy antifouling below the waterline and epoxy tar everywhere else. No epoxy likes sunlight , so cover it with something more UV resistant. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Some paint supplier told me that coal tar epoxy is old technology and it is now replace by some newer epoxy with high content of solids. > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 22:01:28 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: coal tar epoxy primer > > > > > > I use epoxy tar everywhere , both below and above water , inside and > > out . No problem. My book gives tips for using epoxy tar. > > Brent > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga > > wrote: > >> >> I applied epoxy tar underwater. It is durable and thick. Not > > suitable above the water. mauro > >> > >> Martin Demers wrote: Hi, > >> does anyone have experience with coal tar epoxy? did you have good > > result? > >> do you apply under water line or the complete hull? > >> > >> Thanks, Martin. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal > > for Yahoo! users and friends. > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Branchez-vous à Windows Live Messenger et inscrivez-vous afin de courir la chance de gagner 1000$ chaque jour jusqu'au 12 mai. Visitez connectezetgagnez.ca > http://g.msn.ca/ca55/221 > | 17067|17043|2008-04-03 18:03:45|brentswain38|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|Bullshit . Thats tar , not epoxy tar which goes glass hard. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Hi Brent, > Someone just told me today that coal tar epoxy remains sticky and messy even after it is dry and that it is hard to remove if you have to weld or fix your hull and that paint dont stick very well to it. > I found some coal tar epoxy from many suppliers; Hempel, Devoe, Simco. Maby some are better than others? > > Now I dont know what to think, there are does that swear by it and does that dont like it. > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 22:01:28 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: coal tar epoxy primer > > > > > > I use epoxy tar everywhere , both below and above water , inside and > > out . No problem. My book gives tips for using epoxy tar. > > Brent > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga > > wrote: > >> > >> I applied epoxy tar underwater. It is durable and thick. Not > > suitable above the water. mauro > >> > >> Martin Demers wrote: Hi, > >> does anyone have experience with coal tar epoxy? did you have good > > result? > >> do you apply under water line or the complete hull? > >> > >> Thanks, Martin. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal > > for Yahoo! users and friends. > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Trouvez vos infos rapidement et précisément avec Windows Live Instant Search ! Essayez-le maintenant! > http://g.msn.ca/ca55/220 > | 17068|17040|2008-04-03 18:14:27|brentswain38|Re: Wood treatment|Sounds like a complete waste of time and cruising funds. I have only i used common alkyd exterior paint, $19 a gallon , only where I can see it. On the insides of my lockers the wood is all bare. I haven't had any problems on my 24 year old interior. A wooden boat worker I knew in the 70's told me that when working on fishboats, if a piece of wood was painted on both sides and thus sealed , rot was almost a given . If one side was left bare to breathe there was never a problem with rot. My wooden mast has been bare spruce for decades . The only rot I had was where the steps were screwed on . The rest is in perfect condition, a bit gray and weathered, but structuraly sound. Save your funds and energy for useful persuits. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello Ted > I have been considering coating all the interior wood with 2 coats of > epoxy resin then paint or varnish. > This seems to be the method they use in wood contruction to seal and > protect the wood on the inside. > Tom > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 3:10 AM, edward_stoneuk > wrote: > > > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our > > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred treatment > > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? What is > > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of > > these? > > > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17069|16968|2008-04-04 00:45:50|Aaron Williams|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|The lower the KZ frequincy the deeper depth capabilities also works better in muddy water. Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: peter_d_wiley To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 2:14:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 11:58:06PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > However we are talking about transducers with power outputs in the > > kilowatt range and ranges exceeding 6000m. Not toy ones. > > Just so we're not comparing apples and oranges - the standard fish > finder transducers are putting out anywhere between 600W and 2kW. I'm > sure that digging into how they come up with those numbers would be > amusing, but that's what the manufacturers claim. Heh. My transducers cost in excess of $10K USD each and weighed kilograms. The 12KHz one weighed 50+ kg. They're basically high power ceramic magnets. I used to have a 12KHz, a 38KHz, a 120/200 KHz split beam and a couple of 200KHz units, all looking for different things. The 12 was for deep bottom detection, most of the others were for detecting things in the water column. > > > No transducer IME has a steel plate cover. > > Most transducer pics on the Net are shown from above - i.e., you can't > see the face - but here's one with an SS face: > > http://tinyurl. com/36rd77 I just looked at the specs of that unit. It's rated for ultrasonics in *air* not water and it masses 10g. It doesn't say anything about its ability to transmit a signal from its front face *through a steel plate* mounted in front of it and get any sort of return, which is what I meant by a steel cover. See http://www.echomast ermarine. co.uk/transducer s/manufacturer/ Simrad.html for transducers designed for the marine environment. None of them have a steel front face. They're basically ceramic magnets embedded in an epoxy compound with a potted cable coming out the back. I used to use the dead ones as doorstops. I have a coffee table at home with a crazed Lexan top, ex sea chest lid that took a few impacts too many. If you look closely you can see the fractures right through the 40mm thickness and the mineral deposits that are trapped in the fractures. It came out of an icebreaker hull. > > While I don't doubt Ben's results in mounting one inside a steel hull, > > I would never do this myself. I think it is a bad idea. A small sea > > chest - a capped steel pipe, for example - is a much better approach. > > That's how I plan on mounting mine. > > Note that I've never claimed this method to be superior, or preferred, > or even equivalent to mounting it the standard way. The only thing I've > said is that it can be done, and that I've done it. If I had a boat in > the water, no money to haul it, no existing through-hull for a > transducer, and desperately wanted to install a depth sounder (all of > which applied in the case where I did this), I'd definitely want to have > this method available. If you're building a boat, and don't need to > concern yourself with any of the above, then - of course - doing an > installation that's going to reduce the signal strength to any degree > would make no sense. The last time I went to dry dock it cost $78K to install a new blister-type sea chest into a 6500 tonne vessel and that was independent of the cost of sitting in the dock as the ship was there anyway. If we could have shot the beam through the hull plate from an internal mount, we would have. Money wasn't the issue. I am surprised that you got a usable signal through steel plate from a consumer level product like that. However, the universe is an amazing place and I guess all the planets were aligned perfectly. Alternatively, there was a nice rust erosion spot there and you were basically shooting through a paint layer. I think you were lucky because what you say contradicts every scientific & engineering installation I've ever seen and I spent some 28 years playing on research ships including 6 years running a marine science engineering R&D support group. Personally if the water is more than 50m deep (I'd argue for 10) I don't really care since I'm not going to hit anything and with GPS, nearshore (not close coastal) navigation using water depth as an indicator is more of an interesting historical technique than really needed. So provided one can calibrate the thing adequately, a degraded strength signal is fine. The less electronics aboard, the better. If it's not there, you won't rely on it and it can't break. In a shoal draft hull, a 3m stick is perfectly satisfactory for dirty water. I'm semi-retired now and the less I see of complicated stuff, the happier I am. PDW ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17070|17040|2008-04-04 07:44:26|edward_stoneuk|Re: Wood treatment|That's the advice I like Brent. With bulkheads between cabins that might be difficult although I guess one could use teak oil or similar on the non painted side. Carl's Zinsser B-I-N White Tintable Shellac sounds good stuff, for me at least as I have trouble with 2 pack paint and getting my collection of timber pressure treated is a chore too far. Thanks to everyone for your input. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Sounds like a complete waste of time and cruising funds. I have only i > used common alkyd exterior paint, $19 a gallon , only where I can see > it. On the insides of my lockers the wood is all bare. I haven't had > any problems on my 24 year old interior. A wooden boat worker I knew > in the 70's told me that when working on fishboats, if a piece of wood > was painted on both sides and thus sealed , rot was almost a given . > If one side was left bare to breathe there was never a problem with rot. > My wooden mast has been bare spruce for decades . The only rot I had > was where the steps were screwed on . The rest is in perfect > condition, a bit gray and weathered, but structuraly sound. > Save your funds and energy for useful persuits. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Hello Ted > > I have been considering coating all the interior wood with 2 coats of > > epoxy resin then paint or varnish. > > This seems to be the method they use in wood contruction to seal and > > protect the wood on the inside. > > Tom > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 3:10 AM, edward_stoneuk > > wrote: > > > > > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our > > > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred > treatment > > > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? > What is > > > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of > > > these? > > > > > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17071|16968|2008-04-04 07:50:21|audeojude|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|I have never tried this on a metal hull... however I have done this with great success on a fiberglass hull using a garmin transducer that was designed to be mounted on the transom of a bass boat. I epoxied it down inside the hull of my sailboat just forward of the keel. maybe 6 inches forward of where the original thru hull transducer is mounted. The original transducer goes to a standalone signet instrument while the new garmin one feeds back to me garmin gps/mapping/sounder unit. It reads very well through the hull... even giving me discrimination on bottom type and depth of mud in soft bottoms as well as finding fish :) The only issue at all is you can only use one system at the time. If you leave both transducers running they will pick up each others signals and give anomalous signals. To be honest I would think that metal would be a better transmitter and more transparent to sound than fiberglass is. It would be worth testing for sure.. one less hole in the bottom of your boat if it works for you. scott| 17072|22|2008-04-04 13:23:55|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Keel cooling tank 221003 (2).pdf Uploaded by : joeearsley Description : Keel Cooler Heat Rejection You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Keel%20cooling%20tank%20221003%20%282%29.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, joeearsley | 17073|17073|2008-04-04 13:28:58|joeearsley|Keel Coolers|I was speaking to Stanley Feigenbaum at Beta Marine tody and he sent me a great description on how to calculate the needed keel cooler surface area for a diesel engine. It looks like the skeg on a BS36 is just right. Go Figure! I uploaded it for your viewing pleasure. Alaska joe| 17074|17073|2008-04-04 14:50:41|brentswain38|Re: Keel Coolers|Joe Have you found a site to finish your boat. That one Alex had in Fanny Bay looks good. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > I was speaking to Stanley Feigenbaum at Beta Marine tody and he sent me > a great description on how to calculate the needed keel cooler surface > area for a diesel engine. It looks like the skeg on a BS36 is just > right. Go Figure! I uploaded it for your viewing pleasure. > > Alaska joe > | 17075|17040|2008-04-04 14:53:07|brentswain38|Re: Wood treatment|You need nothing inside lockers where you can't see it. Oil on visible surfaces soaks up grime and fingerprints in a way that is impossible to clean.Better to paint or varnish them , flat varnish if you don't like shine. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > That's the advice I like Brent. With bulkheads between cabins that > might be difficult although I guess one could use teak oil or similar > on the non painted side. Carl's Zinsser B-I-N White Tintable Shellac > sounds good stuff, for me at least as I have trouble with 2 pack > paint and getting my collection of timber pressure treated is a chore > too far. Thanks to everyone for your input. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Sounds like a complete waste of time and cruising funds. I have > only i > > used common alkyd exterior paint, $19 a gallon , only where I can > see > > it. On the insides of my lockers the wood is all bare. I haven't had > > any problems on my 24 year old interior. A wooden boat worker I knew > > in the 70's told me that when working on fishboats, if a piece of > wood > > was painted on both sides and thus sealed , rot was almost a given . > > If one side was left bare to breathe there was never a problem > with rot. > > My wooden mast has been bare spruce for decades . The only rot I had > > was where the steps were screwed on . The rest is in perfect > > condition, a bit gray and weathered, but structuraly sound. > > Save your funds and energy for useful persuits. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Hello Ted > > > I have been considering coating all the interior wood with 2 > coats of > > > epoxy resin then paint or varnish. > > > This seems to be the method they use in wood contruction to seal > and > > > protect the wood on the inside. > > > Tom > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 3:10 AM, edward_stoneuk > > > wrote: > > > > > > > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside > of our > > > > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred > > treatment > > > > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? > > What is > > > > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, > none of > > > > these? > > > > > > > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 17076|17073|2008-04-04 14:57:50|Joe Earsley|Vancouver Island Building Site?|Brent, I haven't found a site yet. I plan to start next Sept. If you know any particulars could you forward them to me. I haven't seen Alex post here for a while. Is he off on a walkabout again? This building site piece is hard to do from here. I will need space for a small travel trailer too. Thanks, joe -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 10:51 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Keel Coolers Joe Have you found a site to finish your boat. That one Alex had in Fanny Bay looks good. Brent| 17077|17073|2008-04-05 19:37:25|brentswain38|Re: Vancouver Island Building Site?|Joe Email Alex at achristie@... Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Earsley" wrote: > > Brent, > I haven't found a site yet. I plan to start next Sept. If you know any > particulars could you forward them to me. I haven't seen Alex post here > for a while. Is he off on a walkabout again? This building site piece > is hard to do from here. I will need space for a small travel trailer > too. > > Thanks, > joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 10:51 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Keel Coolers > > Joe > Have you found a site to finish your boat. That one Alex had in Fanny > Bay looks good. > Brent > | 17078|17073|2008-04-05 19:38:03|brentswain38|Re: Vancouver Island Building Site?|shaw.ca for more info Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Joe > Email Alex at achristie@... > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Earsley" wrote: > > > > Brent, > > I haven't found a site yet. I plan to start next Sept. If you know any > > particulars could you forward them to me. I haven't seen Alex post here > > for a while. Is he off on a walkabout again? This building site piece > > is hard to do from here. I will need space for a small travel trailer > > too. > > > > Thanks, > > joe > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 10:51 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Keel Coolers > > > > Joe > > Have you found a site to finish your boat. That one Alex had in Fanny > > Bay looks good. > > Brent > > > | 17080|17080|2008-04-06 13:04:59|James Pronk|Pipe size|In your book Brent, are the sizes for pipe the nominal size or the outside diameter? Is the bulward cut 1.25 or 1.66 diameter, and what are you using for the center of you anchor winch? Thanks, James.| 17081|17080|2008-04-07 14:11:52|brentswain38|Re: Pipe size|All pipe sizes are sh ch 40 ID. Thus standard 1/2 inch sch 40 is roughly 5/8th ID , one inch slighly over 1 inch ID , 3/4-roughly 7/8th inch ID and 2 inch 2 inch ID . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > In your book Brent, are the sizes for pipe the nominal size or the > outside diameter? Is the bulward cut 1.25 or 1.66 diameter, and what > are you using for the center of you anchor winch? Thanks, James. > | 17082|16991|2008-04-07 15:29:59|edrapela@verizon.net|Re: Argo - the complete story|I thought this was a boat discussion group. Leave the Global Warming BS to Al Gore. From: Darren Bos Date: 2008/03/28 Fri AM 11:38:49 CDT To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story Compare the 2007 satellite photo of ice coverage to the routes of the early explorers you provided. Ice extent has decreased so much that it is no longer necessary to go between Banks and Victoria islands, you can just go over Banks Island!!! Things would have ended very differently for the Franklin expedition had they tried the northwest passage in 2007. http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/2007-9201.jpg http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm Darren At 04:19 PM 27/03/2008, you wrote: >It is not like it is the first time and before we didn't have all the >man made CO2 to use as a cause. >http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm > >Jon > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"brentswain38" >wrote: > > > > There is absolutely no doubt that the arctic ocean ice is declining > > drastically. > > Brent > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links| 17083|17043|2008-04-07 15:32:31|slade green|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|Whern we blasted and re epoxied Slade Green Our epoxy supplier mentioned that get the best adhesion between the bottom paint coat and the epoxy coat was to mix a no greater than 15% bottom paint to the final coat of epoxy. This allows the first coat of bottom paint to take to the hardend epoxy. The speed of the final bottom job was definatly noticed on the knot meter. It seem to create a fairer less bumpy wetted surface. brentswain38 wrote: Friends who used the new"high tech" stuff said one coat of epoxy Tar is like 5 coats of the new stuff when it comes to protection. As I've always had a few bilsters with epoxy tar, I'd use interprotect 2000E, with epoxy antifouling below the waterline and epoxy tar everywhere else. No epoxy likes sunlight , so cover it with something more UV resistant. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Some paint supplier told me that coal tar epoxy is old technology and it is now replace by some newer epoxy with high content of solids. > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 22:01:28 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: coal tar epoxy primer > > > > > > I use epoxy tar everywhere , both below and above water , inside and > > out . No problem. My book gives tips for using epoxy tar. > > Brent > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga > > wrote: > >> >> I applied epoxy tar underwater. It is durable and thick. Not > > suitable above the water. mauro > >> > >> Martin Demers wrote: Hi, > >> does anyone have experience with coal tar epoxy? did you have good > > result? > >> do you apply under water line or the complete hull? > >> > >> Thanks, Martin. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal > > for Yahoo! users and friends. > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Branchez-vous à Windows Live Messenger et inscrivez-vous afin de courir la chance de gagner 1000$ chaque jour jusqu'au 12 mai. Visitez connectezetgagnez.ca > http://g.msn.ca/ca55/221 > --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17084|17073|2008-04-07 15:38:28|Alex|Re: Vancouver Island Building Site?|No walkabouts lately, I'm digging in for a while here! I'm giving away my building site in Fanny Bay, so it is available May 1st at $650 per month, which includes all heat and electricity. It's a spiffy newly built one bedroom apartment with enough room to sleep more in the second living room. The landlord runs a welding shop and was always friendly about my boat welding, and another boat can be brought in there no problem. A more accommodating landlord could not be found. He's entrusting me to find another good quality renter. Anyone who is interested can contact me directly at achristie@.... Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Earsley" wrote: > > Brent, > I haven't found a site yet. I plan to start next Sept. If you know any > particulars could you forward them to me. I haven't seen Alex post here > for a while. Is he off on a walkabout again? This building site piece > is hard to do from here. I will need space for a small travel trailer > too. > > Thanks, > joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 10:51 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Keel Coolers > > Joe > Have you found a site to finish your boat. That one Alex had in Fanny > Bay looks good. > Brent > | 17085|17040|2008-04-07 18:36:35|peter_d_wiley|Re: Wood treatment|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred treatment > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? What is > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of > these? > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. I use Tung oil or a similar thin penetrating oil. It is easy to apply, penetrates the timber deeply, seals it extremely well and can be painted over with oil based paints. Tung oil floor finish is reasonably cheap, easy to apply, easy to recoat and tough once dry. All the timber in my bathroom is done like this, on all sides and especially the end grain. I drilled all the holes etc first so the oil got to soak into the exposed end grain. How many times have you seen staining around end grain or screw holes? Inadequate preparation. My daysailer has a fair amount of treated pine on it. I soaked that in tung oil, let it dry thoroughly and then overcoated it with 3 coats of oil based enamel house paint. 3 years later, exposed to the weather all the time, there's no sign of the barrier coats breaking down. Leaving natural wood unsealed in an interior likely does no harm but you do risk differential swelling if one side is exposed to greater humidity than the other side, which is sealed. The other thing to consider, according to an engineer friend who worked in the plywood/composite industry, is outgassing of formaldehyde from the glues. He recommends sealing all plywood (and chipboard but I can't see why anyone would be using that in a boat) to reduce or eliminate the outgassing. So many things depend on the timber and how it's been milled. For preferred wood, what can you get locally that's rot resistant and holds fasteners well? Go with that. No point my telling you what I'd use because I have magnificent Australian hardwoods available to me cheaply or for free. FWIW I would definitely NOT put unpainted wood against unpainted steel. I'd paint both separately, but that's me. PDW| 17086|17086|2008-04-07 20:18:54|jameshawk99|Re: wood treatment|Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. Check it out on the net. Jim| 17087|17087|2008-04-08 07:50:23|Martin Demers|inflatable dinghy size|Hi, I would like to get an advice on wich size dinghy is best to leave on a 36ft boat deck. Is 9ft too long? I saw one for sale at good price and dont want to buy if too big" Thanks, Martin.| 17088|17040|2008-04-08 09:08:48|will jones|Re: Wood treatment|Just a few comments on tung oil. Tung oil is water resistant and not waterproof. It allows the exchange of water vapor and so will not be suitable in wet conditions. It is also dries soft and is not good as a built up layer in a finish. That is, you are not going to get any real protection at the surface. If you are going to paint wood, a good 20% mineral spirit cut of an oil primer will penetrate as well as tung oil. This will be much more efficient and effective than tung oil. Tung oil is good for enhancing the natural look of wood with an added resistance to water. It is only slightly better than linseed oil. If one is going to paint wood, use the cut primer on all six sides as an initial coat. Also, try to use wood dried to less than 10% moisture. Fine Woodworking has shown that sanding performs better than a solvent wipe for teak, mahogany and other similar oily/silica containing woods. peter_d_wiley wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred treatment > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? What is > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of > these? > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. I use Tung oil or a similar thin penetrating oil. It is easy to apply, penetrates the timber deeply, seals it extremely well and can be painted over with oil based paints. Tung oil floor finish is reasonably cheap, easy to apply, easy to recoat and tough once dry. All the timber in my bathroom is done like this, on all sides and especially the end grain. I drilled all the holes etc first so the oil got to soak into the exposed end grain. How many times have you seen staining around end grain or screw holes? Inadequate preparation. My daysailer has a fair amount of treated pine on it. I soaked that in tung oil, let it dry thoroughly and then overcoated it with 3 coats of oil based enamel house paint. 3 years later, exposed to the weather all the time, there's no sign of the barrier coats breaking down. Leaving natural wood unsealed in an interior likely does no harm but you do risk differential swelling if one side is exposed to greater humidity than the other side, which is sealed. The other thing to consider, according to an engineer friend who worked in the plywood/composite industry, is outgassing of formaldehyde from the glues. He recommends sealing all plywood (and chipboard but I can't see why anyone would be using that in a boat) to reduce or eliminate the outgassing. So many things depend on the timber and how it's been milled. For preferred wood, what can you get locally that's rot resistant and holds fasteners well? Go with that. No point my telling you what I'd use because I have magnificent Australian hardwoods available to me cheaply or for free. FWIW I would definitely NOT put unpainted wood against unpainted steel. I'd paint both separately, but that's me. PDW Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17089|17087|2008-04-08 09:11:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: inflatable dinghy size|On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 11:50:17AM -0000, Martin Demers wrote: > Hi, > I would like to get an advice on wich size dinghy is best to leave on a 36ft boat deck. > Is 9ft too long? I saw one for sale at good price and dont want to buy if too big" Size of dinghy is a pretty tough choice, between the constraints of towing/storage/etc. requirements and the convenience of usage. On the one hand, too big of a dinghy can't be stored on deck; on the other hand, too small of one is wet in a chop, can't take a motor of any reasonable size, and doesn't have any carrying capacity. The choice comes down to what's most important to you versus what you can live with. When I was in the Caribbean, I bought an 11'4" AB inflatable (made in Venezuela, so the price was quite good) and a 15HP Yamaha motor; I still have that combo. I was able to plane with four people and their scuba gear aboard so we could run out to Lobster Alley (a bunch of parallel reefs outside of Long Bay that harbor innumerable lobsters) or just load up a bunch of stuff for the day and go exploring or even camping on the small islands nearby, with a girlfriend or by myself. I've also rescued boats that have gone aground, gone to a nearby boat in the middle of hurricane-force winds when they needed help, stayed reasonably dry when getting out to my boat in a chop produced by a 35kt wind... These days, I'm easily able to transport myself, my wife, and my 7-month old son - and his stroller/car seat plus a carload of groceries - in it. The convenience of a good-sized dinghy when you live aboard, especially one with big tubes, makes a huge difference to your quality of life. The downside is that I can't just fold it up and stow it under the sole of my aft cabin - the way I used to do when I had a 9' inflatable. I also can't fit it on my foredeck for scraping the bottom. So, instead, I attach its bow to my main halyard and winch it up with the bottom facing inboard, then scrape it - and since I can't stow it, I tow it. Because of that, I use a much heavier line to its bow (3/4" polypro), and I've made sure that the towing attachment on it is *very* strong (I've put in a big SS plate to back it.) Some people go absolutely minimalist in this direction; I saw a fellow stitch together a tiny kayak out of one (!) sheet of plywood when I was in Boqueron, Puerto Rico - and it worked fine for him; he could paddle it faster than most of the 3HP-powered inflatables could go. Of course, he had to make other arrangements when it came to getting anything other than a single small bag of groceries aboard, and stepping into that thing from his boat was always a big adventure... Some people love PortaBotes. I've always found them very impressive for what they do, but they just don't suit my style. http://www.porta-bote.com/ -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17090|17086|2008-04-08 09:17:37|will jones|Re: wood treatment|Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water resistance in wet or humid environments. Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for water resistance. jameshawk99 wrote: Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. Check it out on the net. Jim Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17091|17086|2008-04-08 10:23:56|edrapela@verizon.net|Re: wood treatment|There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner (depending on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by raw linseed oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. Follow this with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the desired level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing porous woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides stayed nice for more than 3 years even in the California sun. Cheers, Ed From: will jones Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water resistance in wet or humid environments. Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for water resistance. jameshawk99 wrote: Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. Check it out on the net. Jim Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links| 17092|17043|2008-04-08 14:24:41|brentswain38|Re: coal tar epoxy primer|I was told that Wasser urethane tar was developed for submarines. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Martin, > > Only time will tell about its longevity. > It would seem that a urethane based tar paint would be better than a > epoxy based tar paint for water proofing as epoxy is not 100% water > resistant (contrary to popular belief). > > Carl > > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Carl, > > I saw you applied tar but I didn't read about you using wasser tar > > urethane. I had a look at their web site do you think it is as superior > > to coal tar epoxy as they claim! > > > > Martin. > | 17093|17087|2008-04-08 14:25:34|brentswain38|Re: inflatable dinghy size|If It'a a great deal, buy it. You could always deflate the end to carry it on deck, sell it at par or better if it doesn't work out and at any rate that leaves you one less thing to deal with in the short run.. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > Hi, > I would like to get an advice on wich size dinghy is best to leave on a 36ft boat deck. > Is 9ft too long? I saw one for sale at good price and dont want to buy if too big" > > Thanks, Martin. > | 17094|17094|2008-04-08 22:31:35|cptcrunch100|would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life cris|Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: Hull: 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom Deck: 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops Stiffeners: 10-1"x1"x1/4"x20' angle 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe Keel (single) 1-8x10x1/4" plate 1-2x12x1/2" plate 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an approx cost or someone to use as a reference Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route| 17095|17040|2008-04-08 23:00:47|slade green|Re: How is Fly progressing Ed, we want to see more pics|peter_d_wiley wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred treatment > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? What is > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of > these? > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. I use Tung oil or a similar thin penetrating oil. It is easy to apply, penetrates the timber deeply, seals it extremely well and can be painted over with oil based paints. Tung oil floor finish is reasonably cheap, easy to apply, easy to recoat and tough once dry. All the timber in my bathroom is done like this, on all sides and especially the end grain. I drilled all the holes etc first so the oil got to soak into the exposed end grain. How many times have you seen staining around end grain or screw holes? Inadequate preparation. My daysailer has a fair amount of treated pine on it. I soaked that in tung oil, let it dry thoroughly and then overcoated it with 3 coats of oil based enamel house paint. 3 years later, exposed to the weather all the time, there's no sign of the barrier coats breaking down. Leaving natural wood unsealed in an interior likely does no harm but you do risk differential swelling if one side is exposed to greater humidity than the other side, which is sealed. The other thing to consider, according to an engineer friend who worked in the plywood/composite industry, is outgassing of formaldehyde from the glues. He recommends sealing all plywood (and chipboard but I can't see why anyone would be using that in a boat) to reduce or eliminate the outgassing. So many things depend on the timber and how it's been milled. For preferred wood, what can you get locally that's rot resistant and holds fasteners well? Go with that. No point my telling you what I'd use because I have magnificent Australian hardwoods available to me cheaply or for free. FWIW I would definitely NOT put unpainted wood against unpainted steel. I'd paint both separately, but that's me. PDW --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17096|17040|2008-04-09 01:19:26|Aaron Williams|Re: How is Fly progressing Ed, we want to see more pics|I was thinking about using the composit stuff called trex for the furring strips wont rot and it can be drilled or just screwed. I wonder how well it would be cut as toung and groove for floor boards? My preferance after that would be yellow ceder, but it is expensive this far north. I think trex is cheaper. Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: slade green To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 7:00:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How is Fly progressing Ed, we want to see more pics peter_d_wiley wrote: --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred treatment > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? What is > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of > these? > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. I use Tung oil or a similar thin penetrating oil. It is easy to apply, penetrates the timber deeply, seals it extremely well and can be painted over with oil based paints. Tung oil floor finish is reasonably cheap, easy to apply, easy to recoat and tough once dry. All the timber in my bathroom is done like this, on all sides and especially the end grain. I drilled all the holes etc first so the oil got to soak into the exposed end grain. How many times have you seen staining around end grain or screw holes? Inadequate preparation. My daysailer has a fair amount of treated pine on it. I soaked that in tung oil, let it dry thoroughly and then overcoated it with 3 coats of oil based enamel house paint. 3 years later, exposed to the weather all the time, there's no sign of the barrier coats breaking down. Leaving natural wood unsealed in an interior likely does no harm but you do risk differential swelling if one side is exposed to greater humidity than the other side, which is sealed. The other thing to consider, according to an engineer friend who worked in the plywood/composite industry, is outgassing of formaldehyde from the glues. He recommends sealing all plywood (and chipboard but I can't see why anyone would be using that in a boat) to reduce or eliminate the outgassing. So many things depend on the timber and how it's been milled. For preferred wood, what can you get locally that's rot resistant and holds fasteners well? Go with that. No point my telling you what I'd use because I have magnificent Australian hardwoods available to me cheaply or for free. FWIW I would definitely NOT put unpainted wood against unpainted steel. I'd paint both separately, but that's me. PDW ------------ --------- --------- --- You rock. That's why Blockbuster' s offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17097|17094|2008-04-09 08:55:31|J Fisher|Re: would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life |When I quoted steel for a BS40 last fall it was about $12,000 US including stainless. John -------Original Message------- From: cptcrunch100 Date: 4/8/2008 7:31:41 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life crisis Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: Hull: 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom Deck: 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops Stiffeners: 10-1"x1"x1/4"x20' angle 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe Keel (single) 1-8x10x1/4" plate 1-2x12x1/2" plate 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an approx cost or someone to use as a reference Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17098|17098|2008-04-09 12:37:21|James Pronk|3in1 Plasma cutter/welder|Has anyone used one of these units or an inverter style plasma cutter? The 3in1 welder that I was looking at was a ac/dc, stick and tig welder as well as a plasma cutter able to cut 1/2". The plasma cutter could cut a full 1". After having my shop broke into and most of my tools stollen I am now trying to buy some new tools. I have not bought much of the China import stuff and I would like to know if anyone has had much luck with this equipment. Right now I can't spend the $5000 to replace the Lincoln equipment that was stolen, and I have to get my shop up and running because metal sculptural work is what I do full time. Thanks for your help, James Pronk.| 17099|16991|2008-04-09 16:10:51|Shane Duncan|Re: Argo - the complete story|my guess is a majority of guys who make origami boats give a shit about the ocean leaving the global warming BS to politicians alone is probably not real smart ----- Original Message ---- From: "edrapela@..." To: Darren Bos ; origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 5:58:20 AM Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story I thought this was a boat discussion group. Leave the Global Warming BS to Al Gore. From: Darren Bos Date: 2008/03/28 Fri AM 11:38:49 CDT To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story Compare the 2007 satellite photo of ice coverage to the routes of the early explorers you provided. Ice extent has decreased so much that it is no longer necessary to go between Banks and Victoria islands, you can just go over Banks Island!!! Things would have ended very differently for the Franklin expedition had they tried the northwest passage in 2007. http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/2007-9201.jpg http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm Darren At 04:19 PM 27/03/2008, you wrote: >It is not like it is the first time and before we didn't have all the >man made CO2 to use as a cause. >http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm > >Jon > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"brentswain38" >wrote: > > > > There is absolutely no doubt that the arctic ocean ice is declining > > drastically. > > Brent > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17100|17040|2008-04-09 16:44:39|brentswain38|Re: How is Fly progressing Ed, we want to see more pics|Dale Deforest used it for firring strips in Olympia . He swears by it , altho I don't feel the expense is justified, except around ports. I've never had a problem with rot on firring strips nor have I ever heard of such problems.He said it bends well without steaming for extreme curves. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I was thinking about using the composit stuff called trex for the furring strips wont rot and it can be drilled or just screwed. I wonder how well it would be cut as toung and groove for floor boards? My preferance after that would be yellow ceder, but it is expensive this far north. I think trex is cheaper. > Aaron > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: slade green > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 7:00:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How is Fly progressing Ed, we want to see more pics > > > > peter_d_wiley wrote: --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our > > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred treatment > > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? What is > > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of > > these? > > > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. > > I use Tung oil or a similar thin penetrating oil. It is easy to apply, > penetrates the timber deeply, seals it extremely well and can be > painted over with oil based paints. Tung oil floor finish is > reasonably cheap, easy to apply, easy to recoat and tough once dry. > All the timber in my bathroom is done like this, on all sides and > especially the end grain. I drilled all the holes etc first so the oil > got to soak into the exposed end grain. How many times have you seen > staining around end grain or screw holes? Inadequate preparation. > > My daysailer has a fair amount of treated pine on it. I soaked that in > tung oil, let it dry thoroughly and then overcoated it with 3 coats of > oil based enamel house paint. 3 years later, exposed to the weather > all the time, there's no sign of the barrier coats breaking down. > > Leaving natural wood unsealed in an interior likely does no harm but > you do risk differential swelling if one side is exposed to greater > humidity than the other side, which is sealed. The other thing to > consider, according to an engineer friend who worked in the > plywood/composite industry, is outgassing of formaldehyde from the > glues. He recommends sealing all plywood (and chipboard but I can't > see why anyone would be using that in a boat) to reduce or eliminate > the outgassing. > > So many things depend on the timber and how it's been milled. For > preferred wood, what can you get locally that's rot resistant and > holds fasteners well? Go with that. No point my telling you what I'd > use because I have magnificent Australian hardwoods available to me > cheaply or for free. > > FWIW I would definitely NOT put unpainted wood against unpainted > steel. I'd paint both separately, but that's me. > > PDW > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > You rock. That's why Blockbuster' s offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17101|16991|2008-04-09 16:50:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: Argo - the complete story|On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 07:16:59PM -0700, Shane Duncan wrote: > my guess is a majority of guys > who make origami boats give a shit about the ocean > > leaving the global warming BS to politicians alone > is probably not real smart Well said, Shane. That's how we got into the mess we're in now: giving our power to decide away to politicians, to the point where everyone thinks that it's natural to do so. Outgrowing "Daddy knows best" is supposed to happen pretty early on, but many people these days appear to have missed that step. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17102|17094|2008-04-09 21:23:20|Aaron Williams|Re: would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life |I bet it is 50% higher today and going up $10.00 or more a day now. ----- Original Message ---- From: J Fisher To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 5:44:09 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life crisis When I quoted steel for a BS40 last fall it was about $12,000 US including stainless. John -------Original Message----- -- From: cptcrunch100 Date: 4/8/2008 7:31:41 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life crisis Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: Hull: 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom Deck: 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops Stiffeners: 10-1"x1"x1/4" x20' angle 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe Keel (single) 1-8x10x1/4" plate 1-2x12x1/2" plate 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an approx cost or someone to use as a reference Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17103|16991|2008-04-09 21:48:09|edrapela@verizon.net|Re: Argo - the complete story|Wake up and smell the coffee guys. This crap has been going on since the last ice age. The planet warms and cools in cycles; the last great scare was in the late '60 when the tree huggers were warning of the next great ice age. It didn't happen than nor is it happening now. Leave this crap to the tree hugger web sites and get back to boats. From: Ben Okopnik Date: 2008/04/09 Wed PM 04:06:09 CDT To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 07:16:59PM -0700, Shane Duncan wrote: > my guess is a majority of guys > who make origami boats give a shit about the ocean > > leaving the global warming BS to politicians alone > is probably not real smart Well said, Shane. That's how we got into the mess we're in now: giving our power to decide away to politicians, to the point where everyone thinks that it's natural to do so. Outgrowing "Daddy knows best" is supposed to happen pretty early on, but many people these days appear to have missed that step. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 17104|16991|2008-04-09 22:40:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: Argo - the complete story|On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 08:48:07PM -0500, edrapela@... wrote: > Wake up and smell the coffee guys. This crap has been going on since > the last ice age. Interesting brand of coffee you're drinking. Judging from the smell, it's actually toxic industrial sludge. You *do* realize that stuff causes brain damage, right? > The planet warms and cools in cycles; the last > great scare was in the late '60 when the tree huggers were warning of > the next great ice age. It didn't happen than nor is it happening now. > Leave this crap to the tree hugger web sites and get back to boats. Since you don't have any qualifications to back that up (I'd be willing to bet money on that), you're obviously relying on your own prejudice and ignorance - or, even more likely, borrowing someone else's prejudice and ignorance. Given that this is the standard mode of operation for you - that being all you've shown here - *why* would anyone be interested in anything you have to say about boats? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17105|16991|2008-04-09 23:03:03|Shane Duncan|Re: Argo - the complete story|if you don't like the tree hugging don't read it I've taken 6 months off work to build my boat and been hard at it now for the last 4 weeks, so i'm naturally very interested in the boat building emails but some of the emails i have read in this group regarding the global waring have been superb, i have forwarded some to may friends and some interesting conversations have followed you have obviously made your mind up but i haven't anyway if anyone is interested in the construction of a Brent Swain 31 hull i've just posted 4 pics of it at various stages of construction cheers shane ----- Original Message ---- From: "edrapela@..." To: Ben Okopnik ; origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:48:07 AM Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story Wake up and smell the coffee guys. This crap has been going on since the last ice age. The planet warms and cools in cycles; the last great scare was in the late '60 when the tree huggers were warning of the next great ice age. It didn't happen than nor is it happening now. Leave this crap to the tree hugger web sites and get back to boats. From: Ben Okopnik Date: 2008/04/09 Wed PM 04:06:09 CDT To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 07:16:59PM -0700, Shane Duncan wrote: > my guess is a majority of guys > who make origami boats give a shit about the ocean > > leaving the global warming BS to politicians alone > is probably not real smart Well said, Shane. That's how we got into the mess we're in now: giving our power to decide away to politicians, to the point where everyone thinks that it's natural to do so. Outgrowing "Daddy knows best" is supposed to happen pretty early on, but many people these days appear to have missed that step. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17106|16991|2008-04-09 23:45:21|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - the complete story|Ben I don't know where you have been but in the last 100 years there has been a media scare going from cooling to warming and back. In just 100 years there has been 4 flip flops on temp and man being distroyed. Don't forget world hunger all the birds and fish dieing and all the other exagerations of so called enviromental groups. The largest dead zone in the world is in the Gulf of Mexico and the growing of corn to make ethenal is a big part of its growth. The temp has risen .76 degrees in over a 100 years can you realy tell the difference. It snowed in Bagdad for the first time on record this year. Hello it is raising costs of our boat building, life dreams and poluting our boating waters. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 08:48:07PM -0500, edrapela@... wrote: > > Wake up and smell the coffee guys. This crap has been going on since > > the last ice age. > > Interesting brand of coffee you're drinking. Judging from the smell, > it's actually toxic industrial sludge. You *do* realize that stuff > causes brain damage, right? > > > The planet warms and cools in cycles; the last > > great scare was in the late '60 when the tree huggers were warning of > > the next great ice age. It didn't happen than nor is it happening now. > > Leave this crap to the tree hugger web sites and get back to boats. > > Since you don't have any qualifications to back that up (I'd be willing > to bet money on that), you're obviously relying on your own prejudice > and ignorance - or, even more likely, borrowing someone else's prejudice > and ignorance. Given that this is the standard mode of operation for you > - that being all you've shown here - *why* would anyone be interested in > anything you have to say about boats? > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17107|16991|2008-04-09 23:57:10|Gordon Schnell|Re: Argo - the complete story|One comment, if I may. I work with a fellow from Bagdad. It actually snows there almost every year. Hmmmm Gord Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > Ben I don't know where you have been but in the last 100 years there > has been a media scare going from cooling to warming and back. In > just 100 years there has been 4 flip flops on temp and man being > distroyed. Don't forget world hunger all the birds and fish dieing > and all the other exagerations of so called enviromental groups. The > largest dead zone in the world is in the Gulf of Mexico and the > growing of corn to make ethenal is a big part of its growth. The temp > has risen .76 degrees in over a 100 years can you realy tell the > difference. It snowed in Bagdad for the first time on record this > year. Hello it is raising costs of our boat building, life dreams and > poluting our boating waters. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 08:48:07PM -0500, edrapela@... wrote: > > > Wake up and smell the coffee guys. This crap has been going on > since > > > the last ice age. > > > > Interesting brand of coffee you're drinking. Judging from the smell, > > it's actually toxic industrial sludge. You *do* realize that stuff > > causes brain damage, right? > > > > > The planet warms and cools in cycles; the last > > > great scare was in the late '60 when the tree huggers were > warning of > > > the next great ice age. It didn't happen than nor is it happening > now. > > > Leave this crap to the tree hugger web sites and get back to > boats. > > > > Since you don't have any qualifications to back that up (I'd be > willing > > to bet money on that), you're obviously relying on your own > prejudice > > and ignorance - or, even more likely, borrowing someone else's > prejudice > > and ignorance. Given that this is the standard mode of operation > for you > > - that being all you've shown here - *why* would anyone be > interested in > > anything you have to say about boats? > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > | 17108|16991|2008-04-10 00:45:33|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - the complete story|Thanks for the corection that is what hapens when you get you news from AP. The temp rise of .76C is well excepted by people on both sides. I defy anyone to be in a room where the temp is changed .76C up or down and fo them to tell when and what direction every time if at all. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > One comment, if I may. I work with a fellow from Bagdad. It actually > snows there almost every year. > Hmmmm > Gord > > > Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > > Ben I don't know where you have been but in the last 100 years there > > has been a media scare going from cooling to warming and back. In > > just 100 years there has been 4 flip flops on temp and man being > > distroyed. Don't forget world hunger all the birds and fish dieing > > and all the other exagerations of so called enviromental groups. The > > largest dead zone in the world is in the Gulf of Mexico and the > > growing of corn to make ethenal is a big part of its growth. The temp > > has risen .76 degrees in over a 100 years can you realy tell the > > difference. It snowed in Bagdad for the first time on record this > > year. Hello it is raising costs of our boat building, life dreams and > > poluting our boating waters. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > , Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 08:48:07PM -0500, edrapela@ wrote: > > > > Wake up and smell the coffee guys. This crap has been going on > > since > > > > the last ice age. > > > > > > Interesting brand of coffee you're drinking. Judging from the smell, > > > it's actually toxic industrial sludge. You *do* realize that stuff > > > causes brain damage, right? > > > > > > > The planet warms and cools in cycles; the last > > > > great scare was in the late '60 when the tree huggers were > > warning of > > > > the next great ice age. It didn't happen than nor is it happening > > now. > > > > Leave this crap to the tree hugger web sites and get back to > > boats. > > > > > > Since you don't have any qualifications to back that up (I'd be > > willing > > > to bet money on that), you're obviously relying on your own > > prejudice > > > and ignorance - or, even more likely, borrowing someone else's > > prejudice > > > and ignorance. Given that this is the standard mode of operation > > for you > > > - that being all you've shown here - *why* would anyone be > > interested in > > > anything you have to say about boats? > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > | 17109|17094|2008-04-10 08:43:56|Carl Anderson|Re: would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life |What stainless dos that include? Is the steel abraded & zinc primed? Carl J Fisher wrote: > > > When I quoted steel for a BS40 last fall it was about $12,000 US including > stainless. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: cptcrunch100 > Date: 4/8/2008 7:31:41 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying > a Mid life crisis > > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > Hull: > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > Deck: > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > Stiffeners: > 10-1"x1"x1/4"x20' angle > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > Keel (single) > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an > approx cost or someone to use as a reference > > Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 17110|16991|2008-04-10 09:20:56|edrapela@verizon.net|Re: Argo - the complete story|Interesting comments from a techno dweeb. I'm sure you have several degrees in climatology in order to back up your viewpoints. I, however, am from the School of Hard Knocks, University of Experience. I'm pushing 70 years on this planet and have lived through a whole host of "calamity panics" from the chicken littles of this world. And yes, I have read extensively on the subject in order to form my opinions. If you call it prejudge, so be it; closed minds have such a problem dealing with facts. By the by, if its any of your business, I believe in a "quid pro quo" to use of natural resources. I use what I need and recycle any scraps. I believe responsible businesses should do the same but I'm not running around beating my chest and demanding that everyone conform to my beliefs. As to boats, I probably had my first boat when you were still messing your pants. I've owned about a dozen boats and only one of them Fiberglas. I've been forced to do my own maintenance due to financial restraints. Once I acquired the money to pay someone to do it, there were no more experienced people available; so to get it done right I did it myself. I've learned over the years mostly by trial and error. When I reply to a boat topic, it is usually based on stuff I've done. It is always offered with no binders; if you want to try it rest assured it has been tested. Can we now return to boat talk? Cheers, Ed From: Ben Okopnik Date: 2008/04/09 Wed PM 09:58:29 CDT To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 08:48:07PM -0500, edrapela@... wrote: > Wake up and smell the coffee guys. This crap has been going on since > the last ice age. Interesting brand of coffee you're drinking. Judging from the smell, it's actually toxic industrial sludge. You *do* realize that stuff causes brain damage, right? > The planet warms and cools in cycles; the last > great scare was in the late '60 when the tree huggers were warning of > the next great ice age. It didn't happen than nor is it happening now. > Leave this crap to the tree hugger web sites and get back to boats. Since you don't have any qualifications to back that up (I'd be willing to bet money on that), you're obviously relying on your own prejudice and ignorance - or, even more likely, borrowing someone else's prejudice and ignorance. Given that this is the standard mode of operation for you - that being all you've shown here - *why* would anyone be interested in anything you have to say about boats? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 17111|16991|2008-04-10 10:04:15|Ronnie Foster|Re: Argo - the complete story|Shane, I have but one thing to say: "Follow the Money" and you will see where all this so called "Global Warming" is coming from and going too. Folks like Al Gore and many others are getting filthy rich off this whole so called global warming. An old Jew once told me when I was quit young: "Son if you will follow the money you will find the source of everything good of evil in this would." And in 60 years I haven't been able to prove him wrong. Just my thoughts! Let Me Know, Ronnie Foster A.S.T. Systems, Inc. 18570 Van Road Houston, Texas 77049 Phone: (281)456-0082 Fax: (281) 456-0083 Cell: (713) 829-4601 E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shane Duncan Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 10:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story if you don't like the tree hugging don't read it I've taken 6 months off work to build my boat and been hard at it now for the last 4 weeks, so i'm naturally very interested in the boat building emails but some of the emails i have read in this group regarding the global waring have been superb, i have forwarded some to may friends and some interesting conversations have followed you have obviously made your mind up but i haven't anyway if anyone is interested in the construction of a Brent Swain 31 hull i've just posted 4 pics of it at various stages of construction cheers shane ----- Original Message ---- From: "edrapela@verizon. net" net> To: Ben Okopnik net>; origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:48:07 AM Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story Wake up and smell the coffee guys. This crap has been going on since the last ice age. The planet warms and cools in cycles; the last great scare was in the late '60 when the tree huggers were warning of the next great ice age. It didn't happen than nor is it happening now. Leave this crap to the tree hugger web sites and get back to boats. From: Ben Okopnik net> Date: 2008/04/09 Wed PM 04:06:09 CDT To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 07:16:59PM -0700, Shane Duncan wrote: > my guess is a majority of guys > who make origami boats give a shit about the ocean > > leaving the global warming BS to politicians alone > is probably not real smart Well said, Shane. That's how we got into the mess we're in now: giving our power to decide away to politicians, to the point where everyone thinks that it's natural to do so. Outgrowing "Daddy knows best" is supposed to happen pretty early on, but many people these days appear to have missed that step. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail. yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17112|16991|2008-04-10 10:13:06|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Argo - the complete story|According to the figures for the last ten years the planets temperature has been cooling or stable.Back to boats please.Oil at $110 will make more difference to peoples behaviour than all the ranting of the environazis except that this is rapidly acquiring the status of a secular religion,whatever the actual facts,so heretics(climate change deniers)had better beware cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17113|16991|2008-04-10 10:36:20|audeojude|Re: Argo - the complete story|Guys, lets talk boats. Thats what this group is about. If it is off topic and it is creating bickering, which this subject is, then lets drop it. Get each others email addresses and have the conversation off the list. Continuing to beat each up in public over this makes me think that you just like getting in a fight in public. I agree that there is a place and time to argue this topic, that maybe even it needs to be argued. This is not the time or place. I'm sure if you feel very passionate about it that you can find a group dedicated to this subject. Hey what do you know .. there is such a group here on yahoo. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ClimateConcern/ I suggest you go there and argue!] problem solved and everyone now has a place to talk about their favorite topics.| 17114|16991|2008-04-10 12:11:39|edward_stoneuk|Extreme temperatures on the rise|The text below is from the UK Met Office web page: " Extreme temperatures on the rise 26 March 2008 Daily temperature extremes have risen by up to 4 °C over the last 50 years, say climate experts from the Met Office Hadley Centre. Research published this month in the Journal of Geophysical Research explored how observed extreme daily minimum and maximum temperatures, across different world regions, have changed since 1950. Minimum temperatures have seen the biggest increases, most notably over Russia and Canada, where the coldest days are now up to 4 °C warmer than they were in the middle of the 20th Century. The largest changes in maximum temperature were found across Canada and Eurasia where they have typically warmed by 1-3 °C. Warming across the UK was found to be between 0.5 and 2 °C. Simon Brown, Met Office Climate Scientist said: "This latest research shows that some extreme events are already increasing. The trend is set to continue with our changing climate having a significant impact, with warmer nights and hotter days in the future". The Met Office is working with many different sectors to explore the impacts of climate change. Warmer nights and hotter days will have wide ranging impacts from heatwaves, such as the one that affected Europe in 2003, to changes in crop growing seasons. Notes: The Met Office Hadley Centre is the UK's foremost centre for climate change research. Partly funded by Defra (the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) and the Ministry of Defence. The 2003 European summer heatwave caused between 22,000 and 35,000 heat-related deaths and approaching €13.1 billion in agricultural losses. For further information: Met Office Press Office +44 (0)1392 886655 E-mail: pressoffice@... Met Office Customer Centre 0870 900 0100 If you're outside the UK +44 (0)1392 885680 " I included their contact information so folks, if they want can contact them to advise that they are talking rubbish. The UK Met Office web page includes shipping forecasts. Regards, Ted| 17115|16991|2008-04-10 13:20:01|Ronnie Foster|Re: Argo - the complete story|Amen and Amen! Let Me Know, Ronnie Foster A.S.T. Systems, Inc. 18570 Van Road Houston, Texas 77049 Phone: (281)456-0082 Fax: (281) 456-0083 Cell: (713) 829-4601 E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of audeojude Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:36 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story Guys, lets talk boats. Thats what this group is about. If it is off topic and it is creating bickering, which this subject is, then lets drop it. Get each others email addresses and have the conversation off the list. Continuing to beat each up in public over this makes me think that you just like getting in a fight in public. I agree that there is a place and time to argue this topic, that maybe even it needs to be argued. This is not the time or place. I'm sure if you feel very passionate about it that you can find a group dedicated to this subject. Hey what do you know .. there is such a group here on yahoo. http://groups. yahoo.com/group/ClimateConcern/ I suggest you go there and argue!] problem solved and everyone now has a place to talk about their favorite topics. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17116|16991|2008-04-10 13:20:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: Argo - the complete story|On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 08:20:53AM -0500, edrapela@... wrote: > Interesting comments from a techno dweeb. Boring response from a moron. You're no longer welcome in my inbox. *Plonk!* (For a techno-idiot like you, this means that your emails will now automatically go to the trash, where they belong.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17117|16991|2008-04-10 13:28:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: Argo - the complete story|On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 03:44:59AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Ben I don't know where you have been but in the last 100 years there > has been a media scare going from cooling to warming and back. In > just 100 years there has been 4 flip flops on temp and man being > distroyed. Don't forget world hunger all the birds and fish dieing > and all the other exagerations of so called enviromental groups. Jon, I don't know where you've been - perhaps some idyllic, perfect little heaven where reality doesn't exist and things are arranged in just the way you want them to be - but if you're using world hunger as an example of things that don't exist, then you and I don't live in the same world, and don't have a language in common with which to discusss things. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17118|16991|2008-04-10 13:52:08|Alex|Shane's 31|Congrats Shane on progress on your 31! Keep up the good work, it looks great in the photos (BS 31 album in photo files). Alex| 17119|17094|2008-04-10 14:18:29|slade green|Re: would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life |It would definitly nice if it was Zinc primed. where are you Islanders ordering your steel from? Carl Anderson wrote: What stainless dos that include? Is the steel abraded & zinc primed? Carl J Fisher wrote: > > > When I quoted steel for a BS40 last fall it was about $12,000 US including > stainless. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: cptcrunch100 > Date: 4/8/2008 7:31:41 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying > a Mid life crisis > > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > Hull: > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > Deck: > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > Stiffeners: > 10-1"x1"x1/4"x20' angle > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > Keel (single) > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an > approx cost or someone to use as a reference > > Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17120|17098|2008-04-10 14:33:32|slade green|Re: 3in1 Plasma cutter/welder|I think if you look back about 1.5 months ago someone had the same questions and actually bought one of these machines from either princess auto or whatever the Yanke version is called. James Pronk wrote: Has anyone used one of these units or an inverter style plasma cutter? The 3in1 welder that I was looking at was a ac/dc, stick and tig welder as well as a plasma cutter able to cut 1/2". The plasma cutter could cut a full 1". After having my shop broke into and most of my tools stollen I am now trying to buy some new tools. I have not bought much of the China import stuff and I would like to know if anyone has had much luck with this equipment. Right now I can't spend the $5000 to replace the Lincoln equipment that was stolen, and I have to get my shop up and running because metal sculptural work is what I do full time. Thanks for your help, James Pronk. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17121|17121|2008-04-10 14:42:30|kingsknight4life|shanes 31|Looking good.Congrats on your new boat. rowland| 17122|17098|2008-04-10 16:54:11|polaris041|Re: 3in1 Plasma cutter/welder|James there is no catch all answer to your question. It will depend on the specifications of the particular item and then wether the item was constructed in accordance with those specs. If you purchase from an established local reseller who will stand by their warranty you should be OK. But I would be very sceptical of many such items sold on EBay by establishments who may not be very established, but who may change their business badge on a regular basis to escape warranty obligations. China is currently the master of copying and even companies who think they have contractual standards with them can be victims of parts substitution. So pick an established local supplier who will stay in busiess to stand by the warranty THEY offer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Has anyone used one of these units or an inverter style plasma cutter? > The 3in1 welder that I was looking at was a ac/dc, stick and tig welder > as well as a plasma cutter able to cut 1/2". The plasma cutter could > cut a full 1". > After having my shop broke into and most of my tools stollen I am now > trying to buy some new tools. I have not bought much of the China > import stuff and I would like to know if anyone has had much luck with > this equipment. Right now I can't spend the $5000 to replace the > Lincoln equipment that was stolen, and I have to get my shop up and > running because metal sculptural work is what I do full time. > Thanks for your help, James Pronk. > | 17123|17040|2008-04-10 17:36:35|slade green|Re: How is Fly progressing Ed, we want to see more pics|I deliver many lifts of TREX for a local lumber company here in Calgary. Trex is extremly resilant to everything but has a tendency ti crack and snap if screwed to tightly or bent to sharply. Aldo it shows scatches badly and is very heavy. The price should come down in the next couple of years but at present is as expensive as the most expensive wood product + some. I think last year it was close to $3 a ft. The stuff I believe is made from recycled products. I have sat on an outside cockpit bench made of Trex, It looked and felt good and no upkeep. brentswain38 wrote: Dale Deforest used it for firring strips in Olympia . He swears by it , altho I don't feel the expense is justified, except around ports. I've never had a problem with rot on firring strips nor have I ever heard of such problems.He said it bends well without steaming for extreme curves. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I was thinking about using the composit stuff called trex for the furring strips wont rot and it can be drilled or just screwed. I wonder how well it would be cut as toung and groove for floor boards? My preferance after that would be yellow ceder, but it is expensive this far north. I think trex is cheaper. > Aaron > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: slade green > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 7:00:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How is Fly progressing Ed, we want to see more pics > > > > peter_d_wiley wrote: --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > In due course we will be permanantly fitting wood to the inside of our > > steel BS 36 to mount the furniture on. What is the preferred treatment > > of the wood, none, primer, creosote, fungicide, or some other? What is > > the preferred wood, old pallets, softwood from the DIY store, none of > > these? > > > > All opinions and experiences gratefully accepted. > > I use Tung oil or a similar thin penetrating oil. It is easy to apply, > penetrates the timber deeply, seals it extremely well and can be > painted over with oil based paints. Tung oil floor finish is > reasonably cheap, easy to apply, easy to recoat and tough once dry. > All the timber in my bathroom is done like this, on all sides and > especially the end grain. I drilled all the holes etc first so the oil > got to soak into the exposed end grain. How many times have you seen > staining around end grain or screw holes? Inadequate preparation. > > My daysailer has a fair amount of treated pine on it. I soaked that in > tung oil, let it dry thoroughly and then overcoated it with 3 coats of > oil based enamel house paint. 3 years later, exposed to the weather > all the time, there's no sign of the barrier coats breaking down. > > Leaving natural wood unsealed in an interior likely does no harm but > you do risk differential swelling if one side is exposed to greater > humidity than the other side, which is sealed. The other thing to > consider, according to an engineer friend who worked in the > plywood/composite industry, is outgassing of formaldehyde from the > glues. He recommends sealing all plywood (and chipboard but I can't > see why anyone would be using that in a boat) to reduce or eliminate > the outgassing. > > So many things depend on the timber and how it's been milled. For > preferred wood, what can you get locally that's rot resistant and > holds fasteners well? Go with that. No point my telling you what I'd > use because I have magnificent Australian hardwoods available to me > cheaply or for free. > > FWIW I would definitely NOT put unpainted wood against unpainted > steel. I'd paint both separately, but that's me. > > PDW > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > You rock. That's why Blockbuster' s offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17124|17094|2008-04-10 17:48:24|brentswain38|Re: would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life |Victor paid the same for a 36 last summer ($9500CDN) as Alex did three years ago. I believe the rise in the Canadian dollar saved us from the world price rise. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I bet it is 50% higher today and going up $10.00 or more a day now. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: J Fisher > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 5:44:09 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life crisis > > When I quoted steel for a BS40 last fall it was about $12,000 US including > stainless. > > John > > -------Original Message----- -- > > From: cptcrunch100 > Date: 4/8/2008 7:31:41 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying > a Mid life crisis > > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > Hull: > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > Deck: > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > Stiffeners: > 10-1"x1"x1/4" x20' angle > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > Keel (single) > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an > approx cost or someone to use as a reference > > Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17125|16991|2008-04-10 18:09:42|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - the complete story|In the 60's it was the world population would leave standing room only and everyone world wide would be starving. With increase of CO2 plants thrived and produced on average 20% more. Now they are turning the food into fuel and more people are starving from the food to fuel program. Only the E part of the blends burn cleaner the Petral part is the same with less power and more fuel needed in the end with E-10 we burn more Petrolium for the same miles causeing the petrolium price to rise and more CO2. Governments collect more taxes oil co. make more profet farmers get more money and enviromental groups get big money from oil co. to keep it going. News people have a crises to sell so everyone is happy. Companies like GE have a big media intrest as well as sails of Nuce and wind plants for electricity. Follow the money. Buisness as usal. Jon As said they are poluting out boating waters --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 03:44:59AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > Ben I don't know where you have been but in the last 100 years there > > has been a media scare going from cooling to warming and back. In > > just 100 years there has been 4 flip flops on temp and man being > > distroyed. Don't forget world hunger all the birds and fish dieing > > and all the other exagerations of so called enviromental groups. > > Jon, I don't know where you've been - perhaps some idyllic, perfect > little heaven where reality doesn't exist and things are arranged in > just the way you want them to be - but if you're using world hunger as > an example of things that don't exist, then you and I don't live in the > same world, and don't have a language in common with which to discusss > things. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17126|17086|2008-04-10 18:29:53|ANDREW AIREY|Re: wood treatment|Does anybody know a source of bulk boiled linseed oil in the UK.The 'New Dawn' project to recreate a Chesterfield Canal Cuckoo need 45gallons of the stuff.Not really 'origami' - all the timber is seasoning nicely but still has another 12 months to go.Cuckoos were 70ft x 7ft,carried about 20tons of cargo.normally horse drawn,but could carry sails and leeboards for use on the river Trent,or,occasionally,at sea across the Wash cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17127|17127|2008-04-10 21:04:10|Alex|Outboard power for BS boats|Although diesel inboards are generally the norm for most any offshore steel boat, there are a few around here, such at the BS30 featured on the group's home page, which use an outboard (that one in a well) for auxiliary power. The availablity of 2:1 reduction gear long shaft outboards in four stroke gas and sometimes diesel (Yanmar) formats has made the use of an outboard more possible (with debatable merits\drawbacks, I admit, either way). Has anyone powered their BS boats with outboards? How did you mount them, and what brands/horsepower did you find best per particular size of boat? Alex| 17128|17094|2008-04-10 21:04:35|Gary H. Lucas|Re: would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life |We just got a message from our steel fabricator that does all our equipment skids that carbon steel just jumped 20%! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life crisis >I bet it is 50% higher today and going up $10.00 or more a day now. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: J Fisher > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 5:44:09 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared > satisfying a Mid life crisis > > When I quoted steel for a BS40 last fall it was about $12,000 US including > stainless. > > John > > -------Original Message----- -- > > From: cptcrunch100 > Date: 4/8/2008 7:31:41 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared > satisfying > a Mid life crisis > > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > Hull: > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > Deck: > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > Stiffeners: > 10-1"x1"x1/4" x20' angle > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > Keel (single) > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an > approx cost or someone to use as a reference > > Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 17129|17094|2008-04-10 21:29:41|Alex|Re: would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life |Even scrap steel seems to be becoming a valuable commodity: Can-Am metal recyclers of Nanaimo illegally accepted a stolen Brent Swain 36 bare hull, fully detailed in stainless, for their cutters to dismantle, no questions asked. Last week the owners of a near-one-hundred-year-old cable-laying ship, the Brico, took the ship apart on the beach where it had been parked as a restaurant for perhaps 40 years. The value in scrap must have made it feasable to rip apart the riveted-steel ship and send it off for cashmoney. Put a lock on your sheets of steel, and even when your bare hull is complete keep an eye on it! Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > We just got a message from our steel fabricator that does all our equipment > skids that carbon steel just jumped 20%! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Williams" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:23 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared > satisfying a Mid life crisis > > > >I bet it is 50% higher today and going up $10.00 or more a day now. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: J Fisher > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 5:44:09 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared > > satisfying a Mid life crisis > > > > When I quoted steel for a BS40 last fall it was about $12,000 US including > > stainless. > > > > John > > > > -------Original Message----- -- > > > > From: cptcrunch100 > > Date: 4/8/2008 7:31:41 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Subject: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared > > satisfying > > a Mid life crisis > > > > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > > > Hull: > > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > > > Deck: > > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > > > Stiffeners: > > 10-1"x1"x1/4" x20' angle > > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > > > Keel (single) > > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > > > Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an > > approx cost or someone to use as a reference > > > > Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 17130|17094|2008-04-10 22:54:27|J Fisher|Re: would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life |That included rails, bulwark and some flat sheet SS. Not primed. Hard to get primed steel in the rocky mountains. John -------Original Message------- From: Carl Anderson Date: 4/10/2008 5:44:01 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life crisis What stainless dos that include? Is the steel abraded & zinc primed? Carl J Fisher wrote: > > > When I quoted steel for a BS40 last fall it was about $12,000 US including > stainless. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: cptcrunch100 > Date: 4/8/2008 7:31:41 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying > a Mid life crisis > > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > Hull: > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > Deck: > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > Stiffeners: > 10-1"x1"x1/4"x20' angle > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > Keel (single) > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an > approx cost or someone to use as a reference > > Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17131|17127|2008-04-10 23:17:11|slade green|Re: Outboard power for BS boats|I remember when I saw Ocean Pearl she had either a 25 or 35 on screw down bracket and I had my 32 ft steel boat on 9.9 Mind you the bracket ended up ripping off in a following sea under power and powered its self right to the bottom with fuel line in tow. She at least it went out kicken like a good 2 stroke should. Christophe Alex wrote: Although diesel inboards are generally the norm for most any offshore steel boat, there are a few around here, such at the BS30 featured on the group's home page, which use an outboard (that one in a well) for auxiliary power. The availablity of 2:1 reduction gear long shaft outboards in four stroke gas and sometimes diesel (Yanmar) formats has made the use of an outboard more possible (with debatable merits\drawbacks, I admit, either way). Has anyone powered their BS boats with outboards? How did you mount them, and what brands/horsepower did you find best per particular size of boat? Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17132|17132|2008-04-10 23:44:47|cptcrunch100|is ravencoast Rowlands new boat?|| 17133|16991|2008-04-11 00:40:24|peter_d_wiley|Re: Argo - the complete story|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 08:48:07PM -0500, edrapela@... wrote: > > Wake up and smell the coffee guys. This crap has been going on since > > the last ice age. > > Interesting brand of coffee you're drinking. Judging from the smell, > it's actually toxic industrial sludge. You *do* realize that stuff > causes brain damage, right? > > > The planet warms and cools in cycles; the last > > great scare was in the late '60 when the tree huggers were warning of > > the next great ice age. It didn't happen than nor is it happening now. > > Leave this crap to the tree hugger web sites and get back to boats. > > Since you don't have any qualifications to back that up (I'd be willing > to bet money on that), you're obviously relying on your own prejudice > and ignorance - or, even more likely, borrowing someone else's prejudice > and ignorance. Given that this is the standard mode of operation for you > - that being all you've shown here - *why* would anyone be interested in > anything you have to say about boats? Ah, classic Usenet tactic. When you can't or won't address the point of the argument, attack the poster. Global warming stopped 10 years ago. The Aqua satellite has shown data on water vapour in the atmosphere that doesn't fit the climatologists' model. I do have university degrees in geomorphology, zoology, and comp sci. I don't believe the scaremongering about global warming either. It MAY be happening. If it is, humans MAY be responsible. However, at the moment, the evidence on global warming is pretty fragile at best, the state of the models is decidedly suspect, so moving from effect to possible cause is - interesting. Or an act of faith. As I said, there has been no temperature rise since 1998. BTW, Ben, as part of my last job I collected data from the Southern Ocean and Antarctic fringe for a 10 year period. It feeds into the climatologists' models. I personally know some of the world's leading glaciologists, oceanographers and climatologists. I've worked alongside them. The software I wrote is still running and the databases are still growing. What have you, personally, done? Or are you relying on your own prejudice and ignorance? The earth has been warmer in the past. Fact. CO2 levels have been much higher in the past. Fact. CO2 levels have also been lower in the past. Fact. According to the data, planetary temperatures went up and THEN CO2 levels rose. Not the other way around. Sea levels have been higher in the past. Sea levels have also been lower in the past. Lower sea levels occur during ice ages as the water is locked up on land. You can still see the scars from the last glacial period. I live on the shores of a drowned river valley. How did it get drowned? The sea level rose. Duh. How did the sea level rise? The ice melted. Duh. WHY did the ice melt? The planet warmed up. Duh. WHY did the planet warm up? Using the simplistic model of the world, it must have been because the CO2 levels rose, right? Wrong. http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2005/1128ice.shtml The new ice core analysis provides insights on our present interglacial warm period through a glimpse into Antarctic climate and greenhouse gas concentrations during the most recent warm period that is relatively similar to our current warm period. Known as Marine Isotope Stage 11 or MIS 11, this analog warm period occurred between 420,000 and 400,000 years and is not completely covered by the Vostok record. The similarities between our current warm period and MIS 11 are primarily due to a similar configuration of the orbits of the Earth around the Sun: the relative positions of the Earth and Sun are thought to be the key driver of ice age cycles. "MIS 11 shows us that the climate system can indeed reside in a warm period for 20,000 or 30,000 years, something that we can't say based on the last three warm phases which are no longer than about 10,000 years each," said Stocker. We are now about 10,000 years into our current warm period. Note carefully paragraph 2. Note carefully that the historic record shows that there have been *warmer* periods when the CO2 was *lower* than now. So where does that leave CO2 as a predictor of climate change? The CO2 people basically say that yes, it's true that it's a lagging indicator, meaning something else has to trigger a warming period. However, the argument is that after this trigger, rising CO2 levels amplify and extend the initial warming phase. If so, this may well be good, or we could well enter another ice age. Or the world could get warmer and wetter. During the Cretaceous Period, CO2 levels were 3X to 6X what they are today. 2 points need to be made about this. 1. The world didn't end. It was different. 2. CO2 levels subsequently fell, eliminating any suggestion that there is an uncontrolled positive feedback loop. God, I'm sick of this. You act like someone is challenging your religion. The data are simply insufficient and the models built on the data are immature. It seems that the less you know, the more certain you are about what's happening. Realpolitik: it's irrelevant. China & India aren't going to stop industrialising and I don't want them to. I'm not agreeing to go back to an 18C living standard either and if that means that the planet warms 2-3 degrees C, too bad. I'm prepared to live with that and yes, I DO have children. We're going to stop using fossil fuels when they cross the point of being more expensive than alternatives. Want this to happen faster? Work on building a better power plant, preferably fusion, to drive down the cost of alternatives. We can do almost anything we want, if we're energy rich enough. The Western world cares about pollution because we can afford to. When I lived in Jakarta, it was seen as a luxury. This is short sighted thinking to a large degree but you use the technology you can manage, and if that's early 20C, it's still better than 18C. PDW PS: I think burning fossil fuels to generate power etc is stupid and we should move off it ASAP. That's not the point. Now I've lost interest again, especially if all you're going to do is attack the person and not the argument.| 17134|17127|2008-04-11 00:54:22|Shane Duncan|Re: Outboard power for BS boats|I have thought long and hard about this one, i was very tempted to go for an outboard. 4 years ago i bought the latest Honda 4 stroke 20 Hp long shaft outboard with a thrust prop for a 20 foot marine ply trailer sailor. It was quite something, started first pop every time You could pull the fuel line out and it would keep going at 20% revs for 3.5 minutes it was extremely fuel efficient. but one day i got caught out in a 48 knot storm that came out of the blue, two guys in an 24 foot fizz boat capsized and drowned on the same day. anyway as i was coming back into the break water and just when i really needed an engine to get me out of a tricky spot she wouldn't start for 6 minutes, probably got a bit wet inside. i'm not a particularly brave sailor, so it did give me a bit of a fright My girlfriend was on board and she was a tad unimpressed plus being a 50% financial backer of my/our 31 BS she put her foot down and said we are getting an inboard diesel. (what can you say) but it will cost significantly more and is a lot more mucking around. for example 20hp new honda = $4,500 thrust prop = $ 250 Yanma 29hp = $12,600 prop, shaft, fuel tank etc = $2,900 note (1 Aussie $ = 92c US) cheers Shane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17135|16991|2008-04-11 01:28:57|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - the complete story|Dito PDW but back to the story some one beleaved all the stories about how the Arctic Ice was all melting away so tried to sail East to West above the USSR and found out the news had not told the whole truth. Jon| 17136|17136|2008-04-11 01:51:59|compaxboats|Boat plans|I cannot find any links on this forum to buy boat plans for the origami building method. I am looking for plans 31 to 38 foot. Are there any websites that i log onto? Does Brent Swain have a webpage?| 17137|17136|2008-04-11 03:00:58|Alex|Re: Boat plans|The contact information is in the Files section, not links, and I put an "A" in front of Contact Information in order to keep it visible (and higher up on the list so you can find it. To reach Brent by mail, write to: 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 To contact Brent via email about plans and books, write to his e-mail at: brentswain38@... Brent lives on board with no computer connection, so keep in mind that in mind if you don't hear back the very first day. If you are interested in the DVD showing construction of a 36 footer to bare hull stage, contact me at achristie@... . Alex > > I cannot find any links on this forum to buy boat plans for the origami > building method. I am looking for plans 31 to 38 foot. Are there any > websites that i log onto? Does Brent Swain have a webpage? > | 17138|17127|2008-04-11 03:08:05|Alex|Re: Outboard power for BS boats|I guess another point is that an outboard motor does not have huge "bite" in reverse; don't rely on it to stop you in your tracks coming into a slip. On a 36 foot wooden boat I used to own and move with an outboard (a 7.5 hp Honda, believe it or not, with a special low-pitch oversized blade prop!), I favoured backing into a spot, easily controlling my course by dint of having linked the motor to the rudder so that I could adjust for prop walk -- hence could back straight in. Then, when I wanted to stop, I used the more powerful forward gear. There is the Yanmar outboard, one being 27 Hp and the other a 36 hp, both diesel; I wonder if these would avoid the problems of wet electrics stopping your engine right when you needed it, as per Shane's experience. The neat thing about the outboard in a well is that you can haul it out for long periods of live-at-dock life (boring, yes). Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > I have thought long and hard about this one, i was very tempted to go for an outboard. > 4 years ago i bought the latest Honda 4 stroke 20 Hp long shaft outboard with a thrust prop > for a 20 foot marine ply trailer sailor. > It was quite something, started first pop every time > You could pull the fuel line out and it would keep going at 20% revs for 3.5 minutes > it was extremely fuel efficient. > > but one day i got caught out in a 48 knot storm that came out of the blue, > two guys in an 24 foot fizz boat capsized and drowned on the same day. > anyway as i was coming back into the break water > and just when i really needed an engine to get me out of a tricky spot > she wouldn't start for 6 minutes, probably got a bit wet inside. > i'm not a particularly brave sailor, so it did give me a bit of a fright > My girlfriend was on board and she was a tad unimpressed plus being a 50% financial backer of my/our 31 BS > she put her foot down and said we are getting an inboard diesel. (what can you say) > > but it will cost significantly more and is a lot more mucking around. > > > for example 20hp new honda = $4,500 > thrust prop = $ 250 > > > Yanma 29hp = $12,600 > prop, shaft, fuel tank etc = $2,900 > > note (1 Aussie $ = 92c US) > > cheers > Shane > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17139|17132|2008-04-11 03:24:41|kingsknight4life|Re: is ravencoast Rowlands new boat?|No. IS Ravenscoast for sale? Not even sure which boat it is. Is it in the pics section? Rowland| 17140|17132|2008-04-11 04:46:17|Alex|Re: is ravencoast Rowlands new boat?|Ravencoast was one of my old user names, maybe you saw it under the photo and confused it with name of boat? A long time ago I posted photos showing a 36 footer hull for sale, as I often do for anyone wanting to advertise their hull on the site. Alex -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > No. > IS Ravenscoast for sale? Not even sure which boat it is. Is it in the > pics section? > Rowland > | 17141|17132|2008-04-11 04:57:26|kingsknight4life|Re: is ravencoast Rowlands new boat?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Ravencoast was one of my old user names, maybe you saw it under the > photo and confused it with name of boat? A long time ago I posted > photos showing a 36 footer hull for sale, as I often do for anyone > wanting to advertise their hull on the site. > > Alex >Thanks Alex any luck with getting a new boat? rowland>| 17142|17086|2008-04-11 09:46:09|will jones|Re: wood treatment|In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the performance being realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat as to any enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. Remove them from the equation and your performance will probably be the same with proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the surface that a resin can bind to. Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes added to it to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 or 4 or a week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more protection nor moisture resistance than raw. I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished wood, but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the surface due to the added varnish. Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and mildew/fungus loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. But, in no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a base support that a topcoat can bind to. With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin into the wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a compatible base for the topcoat to bind to. edrapela@... wrote: There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner (depending on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by raw linseed oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. Follow this with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the desired level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing porous woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides stayed nice for more than 3 years even in the California sun. Cheers, Ed From: will jones Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water resistance in wet or humid environments. Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for water resistance. jameshawk99 wrote: Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. Check it out on the net. Jim Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17143|16991|2008-04-11 10:13:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Argo - the complete story|On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 04:40:21AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > Ah, classic Usenet tactic. When you can't or won't address the point > of the argument, attack the poster. Yep, that's your favorite tactic all right - as evidenced by the above. > Global warming stopped 10 years ago. The Aqua satellite has shown data > on water vapour in the atmosphere that doesn't fit the climatologists' > model. You've made your position very clear - and you're essentially a voice howling in the wilderness. Your opinion is in the minority, and you howl when it's pointed out. Unsurprising; the truth hurts when you're wrong. I'm not a climatologist. I do, however, know how to do research, how to locate primary sources, and how to separate fact from opinion. I've done my research thoroughly on this topic, and the greatest majority of climatologists, as well as the most reputable and knowledgeable ones, agree - global warming is an established, incontrovertible fact, with a huge body of data to support it. You, and others like you, are disgruntled because your opinion - wrong as it is - does not control. Suck it up, Peter. Be a man and admit that you're wrong. Doing it just this one time in your life won't hurt all that much, and you'll be able to claim to be an honest man, afterwards. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17144|16991|2008-04-11 11:19:31|Jim Phillips|Re: Argo - the complete story|Ha ha ha!!! I fail to understand why, just because the majority agrees on something, then this must be seen to be the truth. Truth and facts are not based on voting or majority or democracy. For example, a few centuries ago, the majority believed the world was flat and the lone voice howling in the wilderness was actually correct. I like reading your comments on other topics, Ben, but today you are really barking up the wrong tree with this idea of the majority being correct. You personally can be wrong or you can be right, Ben. I have no interest in you admitting to either stance. It is your business and you have the right to view all the facts and form your own opinions and conclusions. But please do not try to tell PDW that he should admit to being wrong because you think he is in the minority. But I have to admit to getting a good laugh from the logic! Cheers and beers, boys, Jim. --- Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 04:40:21AM -0000, > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > Ah, classic Usenet tactic. When you can't or won't > address the point > > of the argument, attack the poster. > > Yep, that's your favorite tactic all right - as > evidenced by the above. > > > Global warming stopped 10 years ago. The Aqua > satellite has shown data > > on water vapour in the atmosphere that doesn't fit > the climatologists' > > model. > > You've made your position very clear - and you're > essentially a voice > howling in the wilderness. Your opinion is in the > minority, and you howl > when it's pointed out. Unsurprising; the truth hurts > when you're wrong. > > I'm not a climatologist. I do, however, know how to > do research, how to > locate primary sources, and how to separate fact > from opinion. I've > done my research thoroughly on this topic, and the > greatest majority of > climatologists, as well as the most reputable and > knowledgeable ones, > agree - global warming is an established, > incontrovertible fact, with a > huge body of data to support it. You, and others > like you, are > disgruntled because your opinion - wrong as it is - > does not control. > > Suck it up, Peter. Be a man and admit that you're > wrong. Doing it just > this one time in your life won't hurt all that much, > and you'll be able > to claim to be an honest man, afterwards. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail| 17145|16991|2008-04-11 11:24:05|Shane Duncan|Re: Argo - the complete story|Ben does makes a good point ""greatest majority of climatologists, as well as the most reputable and knowledgeable ones, agree - global warming is an established, incontrovertible fact,"" I have a good mate in New Zealand, known him since i was a kid went to school and university with him he now works as a Atmospheric scientist for NIWA (National institute of water and Atmospheric Research) he's the real deal, a bright guy and genuine scientist he and most of his friends do believe in man made global warming. Although in my understanding of science there is no such thing as an established, incontrovertible fact. just high probabilities i guess that's what makes this conversation interesting and controversial as know one knows with certainty whats going to happen ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:14:04 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 04:40:21AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > Ah, classic Usenet tactic. When you can't or won't address the point > of the argument, attack the poster. Yep, that's your favorite tactic all right - as evidenced by the above. > Global warming stopped 10 years ago. The Aqua satellite has shown data > on water vapour in the atmosphere that doesn't fit the climatologists' > model. You've made your position very clear - and you're essentially a voice howling in the wilderness. Your opinion is in the minority, and you howl when it's pointed out. Unsurprising; the truth hurts when you're wrong. I'm not a climatologist. I do, however, know how to do research, how to locate primary sources, and how to separate fact from opinion. I've done my research thoroughly on this topic, and the greatest majority of climatologists, as well as the most reputable and knowledgeable ones, agree - global warming is an established, incontrovertible fact, with a huge body of data to support it. You, and others like you, are disgruntled because your opinion - wrong as it is - does not control. Suck it up, Peter. Be a man and admit that you're wrong. Doing it just this one time in your life won't hurt all that much, and you'll be able to claim to be an honest man, afterwards. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17146|16991|2008-04-11 11:40:34|Shane Duncan|Re: Argo - the complete story|Jim what if you apply that logic to sending 3 guys to the moon would you go with the majority decision on lunch vehicle and landing craft design or a lone voice howling in the wilderness ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Phillips To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:19:25 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story Ha ha ha!!! I fail to understand why, just because the majority agrees on something, then this must be seen to be the truth. Truth and facts are not based on voting or majority or democracy. For example, a few centuries ago, the majority believed the world was flat and the lone voice howling in the wilderness was actually correct. I like reading your comments on other topics, Ben, but today you are really barking up the wrong tree with this idea of the majority being correct. You personally can be wrong or you can be right, Ben. I have no interest in you admitting to either stance. It is your business and you have the right to view all the facts and form your own opinions and conclusions. But please do not try to tell PDW that he should admit to being wrong because you think he is in the minority. But I have to admit to getting a good laugh from the logic! Cheers and beers, boys, Jim. --- Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 04:40:21AM -0000, > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > Ah, classic Usenet tactic. When you can't or won't > address the point > > of the argument, attack the poster. > > Yep, that's your favorite tactic all right - as > evidenced by the above. > > > Global warming stopped 10 years ago. The Aqua > satellite has shown data > > on water vapour in the atmosphere that doesn't fit > the climatologists' > > model. > > You've made your position very clear - and you're > essentially a voice > howling in the wilderness. Your opinion is in the > minority, and you howl > when it's pointed out. Unsurprising; the truth hurts > when you're wrong. > > I'm not a climatologist. I do, however, know how to > do research, how to > locate primary sources, and how to separate fact > from opinion. I've > done my research thoroughly on this topic, and the > greatest majority of > climatologists, as well as the most reputable and > knowledgeable ones, > agree - global warming is an established, > incontrovertible fact, with a > huge body of data to support it. You, and others > like you, are > disgruntled because your opinion - wrong as it is - > does not control. > > Suck it up, Peter. Be a man and admit that you're > wrong. Doing it just > this one time in your life won't hurt all that much, > and you'll be able > to claim to be an honest man, afterwards. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17147|16991|2008-04-11 13:46:08|Jim Phillips|Re: Argo - the complete story|Shane, Good analogy, mate! If you are asking me to choose between a design by 300 high school science students or a design by 1 lone wolf NASA employee, I would objectively look at the previous track record of BOTH groups and then make the appropriate decision. Majority/minority doesn't come into it at all. Looking at the track record of the climate predicters, I can clearly see the accuracy of their previous predictions. Cheers and beers, boys, Jim. --- Shane Duncan wrote: > Jim > what if you apply that logic to sending 3 guys to > the moon > > would you go with the majority decision on lunch > vehicle and landing craft design > or a lone voice howling in the wilderness > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jim Phillips > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:19:25 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete > story > > Ha ha ha!!! > > I fail to understand why, just because the majority > agrees on something, then this must be seen to be > the > truth. > > Truth and facts are not based on voting or majority > or > democracy. > > For example, a few centuries ago, the majority > believed the world was flat and the lone voice > howling > in the wilderness was actually correct. > > I like reading your comments on other topics, Ben, > but > today you are really barking up the wrong tree with > this idea of the majority being correct. > > You personally can be wrong or you can be right, > Ben. > I have no interest in you admitting to either > stance. > It is your business and you have the right to view > all > the facts and form your own opinions and > conclusions. > But please do not try to tell PDW that he should > admit > to being wrong because you think he is in the > minority. > > But I have to admit to getting a good laugh from the > logic! > > Cheers and beers, boys, > Jim. > > > > --- Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 04:40:21AM -0000, > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > Ah, classic Usenet tactic. When you can't or > won't > > address the point > > > of the argument, attack the poster. > > > > Yep, that's your favorite tactic all right - as > > evidenced by the above. > > > > > Global warming stopped 10 years ago. The Aqua > > satellite has shown data > > > on water vapour in the atmosphere that doesn't > fit > > the climatologists' > > > model. > > > > You've made your position very clear - and you're > > essentially a voice > > howling in the wilderness. Your opinion is in the > > minority, and you howl > > when it's pointed out. Unsurprising; the truth > hurts > > when you're wrong. > > > > I'm not a climatologist. I do, however, know how > to > > do research, how to > > locate primary sources, and how to separate fact > > from opinion. I've > > done my research thoroughly on this topic, and the > > greatest majority of > > climatologists, as well as the most reputable and > > knowledgeable ones, > > agree - global warming is an established, > > incontrovertible fact, with a > > huge body of data to support it. You, and others > > like you, are > > disgruntled because your opinion - wrong as it is > - > > does not control. > > > > Suck it up, Peter. Be a man and admit that you're > > wrong. Doing it just > > this one time in your life won't hurt all that > much, > > and you'll be able > > to claim to be an honest man, afterwards. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > Get the name you always wanted with the new > y7mail email address. > www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail| 17148|16991|2008-04-11 14:22:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: Argo - the complete story|On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 03:46:06AM +1000, Jim Phillips wrote: > Shane, > > Good analogy, mate! > > If you are asking me to choose between a design by 300 > high school science students or a design by 1 lone > wolf NASA employee, I would objectively look at the > previous track record of BOTH groups and then make the > appropriate decision. Majority/minority doesn't come > into it at all. In this case, Jim, you're comparing the "design" of one person - someone claiming to be a scientist (that is, trying to equate himself with those who are doing current research) - against actual accredited, recognized, and in many cases famous _real_ scientists. Your comparison would be far more apt if you compared a single HS student against 300 NASA employees. Would you look at the latter case "objectively", I wonder? Incidentally - majority/minority is, in fact, how science works. Until someone comes up with a universal method of absolute proof and a method of discovering The Absolute Truth, peer review and consensus are the best tools we have - and both of those mean "majority opinion vs. minority opinion". Only folk stories about magic and Hollywood productions consistently have The One being right when everyone else is wrong. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17149|17086|2008-04-11 14:46:28|James|Re: wood treatment|Will , is your Danish oil the same as we in Scotland call Decks Oilye ( or similar ) ? James On 4/11/08, will jones wrote: > > In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the performance being > realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat as to any > enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. Remove > them from the equation and your performance will probably be the same with > proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the surface > that a resin can bind to. > > Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes added to it > to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 or 4 or a > week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more > protection nor moisture resistance than raw. > > I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished wood, > but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the surface > due to the added varnish. > > Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and mildew/fungus > loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. But, in > no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a base support > that a topcoat can bind to. > > With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin into the > wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, > waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a compatible > base for the topcoat to bind to. > > edrapela@... wrote: > There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have > always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner (depending > on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by raw linseed > oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. Follow this > with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full > strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the desired > level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing porous > woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides stayed nice > for more than 3 years even in the California sun. > > Cheers, > Ed > > From: will jones > Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It > is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg > hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural > oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to > readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want > some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up > finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water > resistance in wet or humid environments. > > Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for > water resistance. > > jameshawk99 wrote: > Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates > deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few > coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. > Check it out on the net. > > Jim > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > Total Access, No Cost. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17150|17150|2008-04-11 15:43:20|kingsknight4life|Wood treatment - polyurethane|Hi all. I found this on another group that I belong to and it deals with treating wood. Hope it helps. "Hi! MY take on POLYURETHANE As a result of reading various reports, I have begun to use polyurethane as well on my modified homebuilt Glen-L design wooden sharpie. Where original called for "varnish" I have stained and then used transparent polyurethane and it has held up great! I am gradually replacing all "varnished" wood with this. Two warnings I want to extend! FIRST AND FOREMOST be sure this is exterior UV resistive polyurethane! Not the normal stuff from the shelf in ACE although they can order what you need. SECOND, this stuff DOES NOT COME OFF like removing paint. It reminds me of epoxy. If you apply it, there is no easy turning back! DO NOT get it on anything where you don't want it! I think the only way to get this off is by sanding.. a lot! I had a bit leftover so in 2002 I painted a small house sign which hangs over the chain link gate at my mothers house in Arizona. It has withstood the Arizona sun and temperatures in the 100's and still looks great today and thats 6 years later! No signs of yellowing or discoloration. I am convinced it it can handle Arizona desert, it can hold up to most anything. The varnish started coming off my garden tools in AZ and I have polyurethaned all the handles now and leave them wherever. LOL I recently dined at a Mexican restaurant in Benson, AZ and they had coated their wooden tables with it. He said they poured it over. and when it hardened it was maybe 1/16 in thick. They sat hot dishes and kettles on it (not recommended, but I saw them do it) and spills wipe off like it was glass. This is AMAZING STUFF and It appears even tougher than I ever imagined! On my boat I am hooked on the varnished look! I may revert to a wooden mast, just so I could have the appearance of all varnished spars! If you want to see the look for yourself, buy a small 1/2 pint can at ACE (any shelf type is fine just to see the look) and a bit of stain and do a piece of oak closet rod, don't be afraid to put it on thick.. you can even pour it over. OR buy a tiny bit of the UV resistant kind, paint a yard sign or rake handle and leave it out in the weather and see for yourself. By now, I bet you have figured out I am hooked on this stuff! Regards, Andrew" This was taken from the low cost voyaging group on yahoo. Cheers Rowland| 17151|16991|2008-04-11 16:51:20|Jim Phillips|Re: Argo - the complete story|Ben, Thanks for your reply. > > In this case, Jim, you're comparing the "design" of > one person - someone > claiming to be a scientist (that is, trying to > equate himself with those > who are doing current research) - against actual > accredited, recognized, > and in many cases famous _real_ scientists. Your > comparison would be far > more apt if you compared a single HS student against > 300 NASA employees. > Would you look at the latter case "objectively", I > wonder? If I don't know sufficient about the design, Ben, the best I can do is look at their track record. 300 NASA designers against one "Bill Gates version" of aerospace design? Who knows? Depends on the track record of each party in the field of aerospace design. The number of degrees and the name of the employer are irrelevant if I am to be truly objective. > > Incidentally - majority/minority is, in fact, how > science works. Ok, Ben, let's consider the following proposed truth: 1 + 1 = 2 Now consider hypothetically that the majority don't agree and insist that the result is 3. Who is right? The majority? If I don't have the mathematical ability to know the answer myself, I can only look at the track record of those who claim the answer is 2 against those who claim the answer is 3. If I do have the mathematical ability to judge for myself, the beliefs of the majority are still irrelevant. In my first week my engineering degree, our maths lecturer tried to claim that the integral of x^n is [x^(n+1)]/n. Out of 300 students, I was the only lone wolf who asked in private if it shouldn't be [x^(n+1)]/(n+1). The lecturer put me down and said I was a lowly student and did not know what I was talking about. He refused to debate the maths and just insulted me. But, hey, this is maths, not opinions. So the next day, I took action and commenced the process of changing universities. I wanted a good education, not lectures on how NOT to think. Anyway, majority/minority is irrelevant in MY analysis of this. If it is relevant in your analysis, that is totally ok. I am not trying to change your mind or your method of analysis. I am merely explaining why your argument about majority beliefs does not wash with some people. To belabour the point even further, what do you say, Ben, about the following non-Hollywood cases that were firmly believed by the majority at the time? At the time the minority, who are now regarded as being correct, were persecuted/burnt/jeered. 1. The world is flat. 2. Witches can cast spells on other people. 3. The sun moves around the earth. 4. The earth is warming drastically due to the after-effects of the industrial revolution (1930s beliefs). 5. The earth is cooling dramatically and we will all be frozen, the ports will have no water, etc (early 70s beliefs). 6. The US peso will remain the accepted currency of the world because of the continued strength of the US economy. All of the above examples were all accepted by the majority at the time and all are now considered to be wrong. Mate, you are very, very welcome to your beliefs and your method of analysis - please do not change them - but please do not insist that the minority who do not follow the herd are wrong. Hey, using that logic, there would be no origami group and we would all be sailing plastic boats! And that would be a sad day indeed :( All the very best, Jim. Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail| 17152|17150|2008-04-11 17:17:36|brentswain38|Re: Wood treatment - polyurethane|The wooden mast on my first boat had 14 coats of varathane on it. Altho the wood had air dried for several years , when I was shipwrecked in Fiji the mast was very heavy. The varathane had all fallen of the first three feet where the spray off the deck had been hitting it, but above that it was perfect. It took me and two very large Fijians to move it. . It was shipped deck cargo back to BC. By the time it got her, all the urethane was blasted of and it was much lighter. I could easily move it myself. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi all. > I found this on another group that I belong to and it deals with > treating wood. Hope it helps. > > "Hi! > > MY take on POLYURETHANE > > As a result of reading various reports, I have begun to use > polyurethane as well > on my modified homebuilt Glen-L design wooden sharpie. Where original > called > for "varnish" I have stained and then used transparent polyurethane > and it has > held up great! I am gradually replacing all "varnished" wood with > this. > > Two warnings I want to extend! > > FIRST AND FOREMOST be sure this is exterior UV resistive > polyurethane! Not the > normal stuff from the shelf in ACE although they can order what you > need. > > SECOND, this stuff DOES NOT COME OFF like removing paint. It reminds > me of > epoxy. If you apply it, there is no easy turning back! DO NOT get it > on > anything where you don't want it! I think the only way to get this > off is by > sanding.. a lot! > > I had a bit leftover so in 2002 I painted a small house sign which > hangs over > the chain link gate at my mothers house in Arizona. It has withstood > the > Arizona sun and temperatures in the 100's and still looks great today > and thats > 6 years later! No signs of yellowing or discoloration. I am convinced > it it > can handle Arizona desert, it can hold up to most anything. The > varnish started > coming off my garden tools in AZ and I have polyurethaned all the > handles now > and leave them wherever. LOL > > I recently dined at a Mexican restaurant in Benson, AZ and they had > coated their > wooden tables with it. He said they poured it over. and when it > hardened it was > maybe 1/16 in thick. They sat hot dishes and kettles on it (not > recommended, > but I saw them do it) and spills wipe off like it was glass. This is > AMAZING > STUFF and It appears even tougher than I ever imagined! > > On my boat I am hooked on the varnished look! I may revert to a > wooden mast, > just so I could have the appearance of all varnished spars! > > If you want to see the look for yourself, buy a small 1/2 pint can at > ACE (any > shelf type is fine just to see the look) and a bit of stain and do a > piece of > oak closet rod, don't be afraid to put it on thick.. you can even > pour it over. > OR buy a tiny bit of the UV resistant kind, paint a yard sign or rake > handle and > leave it out in the weather and see for yourself. > > By now, I bet you have figured out I am hooked on this stuff! > > Regards, > > Andrew" > > This was taken from the low cost voyaging group on yahoo. > Cheers Rowland > | 17153|17094|2008-04-11 17:23:38|brentswain38|Re: would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life |Or you can still phone Canam at their expense several times a day at 1-877-245-5011 and tell then what you think about thieves. You can call the movers who stole the boat, at your expense ( pennies ) at 250 746-7400 and express yourself to them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Even scrap steel seems to be becoming a valuable commodity: Can-Am > metal recyclers of Nanaimo illegally accepted a stolen Brent Swain 36 > bare hull, fully detailed in stainless, for their cutters to > dismantle, no questions asked. > > Last week the owners of a near-one-hundred-year-old cable-laying > ship, the Brico, took the ship apart on the beach where it had been > parked as a restaurant for perhaps 40 years. The value in scrap must > have made it feasable to rip apart the riveted-steel ship and send it > off for cashmoney. Put a lock on your sheets of steel, and even when > your bare hull is complete keep an eye on it! > > Alex > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > We just got a message from our steel fabricator that does all our > equipment > > skids that carbon steel just jumped 20%! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aaron Williams" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:23 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be > declared > > satisfying a Mid life crisis > > > > > > >I bet it is 50% higher today and going up $10.00 or more a day now. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: J Fisher > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 5:44:09 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be > declared > > > satisfying a Mid life crisis > > > > > > When I quoted steel for a BS40 last fall it was about $12,000 US > including > > > stainless. > > > > > > John > > > > > > -------Original Message----- -- > > > > > > From: cptcrunch100 > > > Date: 4/8/2008 7:31:41 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared > > > satisfying > > > a Mid life crisis > > > > > > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > > > > > Hull: > > > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > > > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > > > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > > > > > Deck: > > > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > > > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > > > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > > > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > > > > > Stiffeners: > > > 10-1"x1"x1/4" x20' angle > > > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > > > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > > > > > Keel (single) > > > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > > > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > > > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > > > > > Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an > > > approx cost or someone to use as a reference > > > > > > Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > | 17154|17127|2008-04-11 17:30:54|brentswain38|Re: Outboard power for BS boats|I sailed my first boat to New Zealand with an outboard in a well. Every port I came to I spent hours getting the salt out of the ignition. Having the thing kick out of the ocean in any kind of chop was no fun either. In New Zealand I put a 5 hp petter diesel in and life got far more predictable. Completely sealed electronic ignition has been a huge improvement in the reliability of outboards and the ability to take the engine to a shop and have an expert deal with it is another advantage. In BC waters an outboard has it's advantages , but for offshore I prefer a diesel below , out of the weather and not reliant on electronic ignition.Extra noise below and a bit of diesel smell is a small price to pay. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > I have thought long and hard about this one, i was very tempted to go for an outboard. > 4 years ago i bought the latest Honda 4 stroke 20 Hp long shaft outboard with a thrust prop > for a 20 foot marine ply trailer sailor. > It was quite something, started first pop every time > You could pull the fuel line out and it would keep going at 20% revs for 3.5 minutes > it was extremely fuel efficient. > > but one day i got caught out in a 48 knot storm that came out of the blue, > two guys in an 24 foot fizz boat capsized and drowned on the same day. > anyway as i was coming back into the break water > and just when i really needed an engine to get me out of a tricky spot > she wouldn't start for 6 minutes, probably got a bit wet inside. > i'm not a particularly brave sailor, so it did give me a bit of a fright > My girlfriend was on board and she was a tad unimpressed plus being a 50% financial backer of my/our 31 BS > she put her foot down and said we are getting an inboard diesel. (what can you say) > > but it will cost significantly more and is a lot more mucking around. > > > for example 20hp new honda = $4,500 > thrust prop = $ 250 > > > Yanma 29hp = $12,600 > prop, shaft, fuel tank etc = $2,900 > > note (1 Aussie $ = 92c US) > > cheers > Shane > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17155|17150|2008-04-11 18:41:37|kingsknight4life|Re: Wood treatment - polyurethane|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The wooden mast on my first boat had 14 coats of varathane on it. > Altho the wood had air dried for several years , when I was > shipwrecked in Fiji the mast was very heavy. The varathane had all > fallen of the first three feet where the spray off the deck had been > hitting it, but above that it was perfect. It took me and two very > large Fijians to move it. . It was shipped deck cargo back to BC. By > the time it got her, all the urethane was blasted of and it was much > lighter. I could easily move it myself. > Brent > >So you're saying leave it untreated? rowland| 17156|16991|2008-04-11 19:07:06|Ben Okopnik|Re: Argo - the complete story|On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 06:51:18AM +1000, Jim Phillips wrote: > Ben, > > Thanks for your reply. And thank you as well, Jim; rational discussion is always a pleasure. > > Your > > comparison would be far > > more apt if you compared a single HS student against > > 300 NASA employees. > > Would you look at the latter case "objectively", I > > wonder? > > If I don't know sufficient about the design, Ben, the > best I can do is look at their track record. Fair enough - if we're talking about someone making a guess rather than simply quoting existing hard data. In the latter case, the track record makes no difference; the methods of data collection and analysis are the only things that do. In this case, we have the majority quoting hard data, and more and more studies supporting it, while the minority's argument remains "the temperature's gone up before, and we're still here!" This is equivalent to "we've dumped pollutants into the water before, and we're still here - so it's OK to continue doing it!" > 300 NASA > designers against one "Bill Gates version" of > aerospace design? You are, again, assign superior status - for no reason whatsoever - to the minority. If you're interested in fairness, then the majority side has the higher chance of having the geniuses on it (simple statistics.) > Who knows? Depends on the track > record of each party in the field of aerospace design. > The number of degrees and the name of the employer > are irrelevant if I am to be truly objective. If you're to be *truly* objective, then the track record doesn't matter either: an absolute idiot can be 100% correct, while someone with an excellent previous record can be 100% wrong. This is why peer review - where qualified people review the work and render their opinions about it, in effect providing redundant checking by the people most qualified to do so - is one of the standard methods of science. Just as in the case of democracy, it's less than perfect - but it's the best approach we've found. > > Incidentally - majority/minority is, in fact, how > > science works. > > Ok, Ben, let's consider the following proposed truth: > > 1 + 1 = 2 > > Now consider hypothetically that the majority don't > agree and insist that the result is 3. Since the hypothesis is false (and does not, in fact, meet the definition of an actual hypothesis), the result will be pointless and inconclusive. Why would you expect anything else? I recommend reading up on the scientific method, and particularly the part about hypothesis development: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method#Hypothesis_development > If I don't have the mathematical ability to know the > answer myself, I can only look at the track record of > those who claim the answer is 2 against those who > claim the answer is 3. I'm afraid that's incorrect; the track record says nothing about whether the present proposal is correct or not. > If I do have the mathematical > ability to judge for myself, the beliefs of the > majority are still irrelevant. That, of course, is the best option. > In my first week my engineering degree, our maths > lecturer tried to claim that the integral of x^n is > [x^(n+1)]/n. Out of 300 students, I was the only lone > wolf who asked in private if it shouldn't be > [x^(n+1)]/(n+1). The lecturer put me down and said I > was a lowly student and did not know what I was > talking about. He refused to debate the maths and > just insulted me. But, hey, this is maths, not > opinions. So the next day, I took action and > commenced the process of changing universities. I > wanted a good education, not lectures on how NOT to > think. [shrug] I've had bad teachers on occasion (not often, luckily.) A single teacher is not a majority opinion - and math is a fully-determinate descriptive system in which the proofs and the algorithms are easily and widely available. If someone is wrong, it should be easy enough to prove. > Anyway, majority/minority is irrelevant in MY analysis > of this. That's fine - although you may want to think about that "track record" approach. It's based on a logical fallacy (appeal to authority) rather than the scientific method. > I am merely explaining why your argument about > majority beliefs does not wash with some people. Oh, I understand that quite well. I'm also very aware that many people don't know how to think rationally, and don't know the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion' - hell, I have to deal with the fallout from that all the time. I don't consider it much of an issue, personally - since opinions from those who aren't qualified to render them don't figure into my decisions on matters of science. > To belabour the point even further, what do you say, > Ben, about the following non-Hollywood cases that were > firmly believed by the majority at the time? At the > time the minority, who are now regarded as being > correct, were persecuted/burnt/jeered. > > 1. The world is flat. > 2. Witches can cast spells on other people. > 3. The sun moves around the earth. > 4. The earth is warming drastically due to the > after-effects of the industrial revolution (1930s > beliefs). > 5. The earth is cooling dramatically and we will all > be frozen, the ports will have no water, etc (early > 70s beliefs). > 6. The US peso will remain the accepted currency of > the world because of the continued strength of the US > economy. > > All of the above examples were all accepted by the > majority at the time and all are now considered to be > wrong. Were they accepted by a majority of those who were actually qualified to hold an opinion? Pretty much everyone has an opinion, but the only ones that matter to me are those who actually know what they're talking about. > Mate, you are very, very welcome to your beliefs and > your method of analysis - please do not change them - > but please do not insist that the minority who do not > follow the herd are wrong. Please don't mischaracterize what I said, Jim. "Following the herd" is the last thing I'd suggest - if you knew anything about me, you'd realize how laughable that kind of statement is. "The herd" specifically means those who are unqualified - and my statement was the direct opposite of that. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17157|16991|2008-04-11 21:11:58|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - the complete story|You are so right Ben it has warmed but CO2 and MAN are not the cause of most of it. That is what most the people you are speeking of are saying. Most in survays done say "IT IS THE SUN ST...." Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 04:40:21AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > Ah, classic Usenet tactic. When you can't or won't address the point > > of the argument, attack the poster. > > Yep, that's your favorite tactic all right - as evidenced by the above. > > > Global warming stopped 10 years ago. The Aqua satellite has shown data > > on water vapour in the atmosphere that doesn't fit the climatologists' > > model. > > You've made your position very clear - and you're essentially a voice > howling in the wilderness. Your opinion is in the minority, and you howl > when it's pointed out. Unsurprising; the truth hurts when you're wrong. > > I'm not a climatologist. I do, however, know how to do research, how to > locate primary sources, and how to separate fact from opinion. I've > done my research thoroughly on this topic, and the greatest majority of > climatologists, as well as the most reputable and knowledgeable ones, > agree - global warming is an established, incontrovertible fact, with a > huge body of data to support it. You, and others like you, are > disgruntled because your opinion - wrong as it is - does not control. > > Suck it up, Peter. Be a man and admit that you're wrong. Doing it just > this one time in your life won't hurt all that much, and you'll be able > to claim to be an honest man, afterwards. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17158|17094|2008-04-11 21:28:26|Eli Madden|Re: would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life |I've been getting paid to help salvage steel from an old guy's back-40. Old heavy trucks, cars, furnaces, trailers. It just hit $200 a ton today, a $20 jump. On 11/04/2008, brentswain38 wrote: > > Or you can still phone Canam at their expense several times a day at > 1-877-245-5011 and tell then what you think about thieves. > You can call the movers who stole the boat, at your expense ( pennies > ) at 250 746-7400 and express yourself to them. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > "Alex" wrote: > > > > Even scrap steel seems to be becoming a valuable commodity: Can-Am > > metal recyclers of Nanaimo illegally accepted a stolen Brent Swain 36 > > bare hull, fully detailed in stainless, for their cutters to > > dismantle, no questions asked. > > > > Last week the owners of a near-one-hundred-year-old cable-laying > > ship, the Brico, took the ship apart on the beach where it had been > > parked as a restaurant for perhaps 40 years. The value in scrap must > > have made it feasable to rip apart the riveted-steel ship and send it > > off for cashmoney. Put a lock on your sheets of steel, and even when > > your bare hull is complete keep an eye on it! > > > > Alex > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > > > > We just got a message from our steel fabricator that does all our > > equipment > > > skids that carbon steel just jumped 20%! > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Aaron Williams" > > > To: > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:23 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be > > declared > > > satisfying a Mid life crisis > > > > > > > > > >I bet it is 50% higher today and going up $10.00 or more a day now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: J Fisher > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 5:44:09 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be > > declared > > > > satisfying a Mid life crisis > > > > > > > > When I quoted steel for a BS40 last fall it was about $12,000 US > > including > > > > stainless. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > -------Original Message----- -- > > > > > > > > From: cptcrunch100 > > > > Date: 4/8/2008 7:31:41 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared > > > > satisfying > > > > a Mid life crisis > > > > > > > > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > > > > > > > Hull: > > > > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > > > > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > > > > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > > > > > > > Deck: > > > > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > > > > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > > > > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > > > > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > > > > > > > Stiffeners: > > > > 10-1"x1"x1/4" x20' angle > > > > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > > > > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > > > > > > > Keel (single) > > > > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > > > > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > > > > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > > > > > > > Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an > > > > approx cost or someone to use as a reference > > > > > > > > Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17159|17159|2008-04-11 21:42:26|kingsknight4life|question for Carl re. pic on "Moonflower's" page|Carl On your page you have pic of a boat, under the heading "different interior layout". I was just wondering which boat that is and if you have any more pics of that interior? The reason I ask is because that is how we envisoned our pilothouse to look but we wanted to try and squeeze in a head just off to the side of the main companionway hatch. I'd love to see some more pics if you have them? Thanks Rowland| 17160|16991|2008-04-11 21:45:06|Shane Duncan|Re: Argo - the complete story|the average surface temperature of Pluto has increased by slightly less than 2 degrees Celsius over the past 14 years. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:11:56 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story You are so right Ben it has warmed but CO2 and MAN are not the cause of most of it. That is what most the people you are speeking of are saying. Most in survays done say "IT IS THE SUN ST...." Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 04:40:21AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > Ah, classic Usenet tactic. When you can't or won't address the point > > of the argument, attack the poster. > > Yep, that's your favorite tactic all right - as evidenced by the above. > > > Global warming stopped 10 years ago. The Aqua satellite has shown data > > on water vapour in the atmosphere that doesn't fit the climatologists' > > model. > > You've made your position very clear - and you're essentially a voice > howling in the wilderness. Your opinion is in the minority, and you howl > when it's pointed out. Unsurprising; the truth hurts when you're wrong. > > I'm not a climatologist. I do, however, know how to do research, how to > locate primary sources, and how to separate fact from opinion. I've > done my research thoroughly on this topic, and the greatest majority of > climatologists, as well as the most reputable and knowledgeable ones, > agree - global warming is an established, incontrovertible fact, with a > huge body of data to support it. You, and others like you, are > disgruntled because your opinion - wrong as it is - does not control. > > Suck it up, Peter. Be a man and admit that you're wrong. Doing it just > this one time in your life won't hurt all that much, and you'll be able > to claim to be an honest man, afterwards. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17161|16991|2008-04-11 21:48:02|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - the complete story|Lets look at data another way In Florida they sell more icecream in the summer and they also have more drownings so it is logical to take the data and say Icecream causes drownings. The IPCC has admitted a lot of there computer programs don't work or take into acount a lot of factors and have downscaled most of the info on sea rise ect. At the same time a very large number of qualified scientists that worked on the studies disagre with the conclusion. Not one scientest actualy signed the final report presented at Balli that came out 6 months before the reviews and reports it came from. The science that went into the final report was was hand picked from all the work done to suport the final report and what didn't was not included. That is not science by deffinition. The last confrence of meterolagest in the US the majority agreed it has gotten warmer but the also agreed it was not because of man made greenhouse gasses. Several state climatealogests have lost there jobs for not supporting AGW as perscribed by the IPCC. When you look at the pros who speek look at who is pulling there strings have there job and livelyhood on the line or proffeting. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 06:51:18AM +1000, Jim Phillips wrote: > > Ben, > > > > Thanks for your reply. > > And thank you as well, Jim; rational discussion is always a pleasure. > | 17162|16991|2008-04-11 21:55:19|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - the complete story|Yes and the burning of oil and coal by man has warmed the rest of the present and what where planets but no longer in our galaxy. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > the average surface temperature of Pluto has increased by slightly less than > 2 degrees Celsius over the past 14 years. | 17163|17094|2008-04-11 22:27:16|James Pronk|Re: would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared satisfying a Mid life |In my area $272 a ton is what they are paying. Any steel that is not locked up is finding its way to the scrap yard. I had a pile of rusty old stuff that I have been using in my work walk out of my yard this week. I really must find a new shop! James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eli Madden" wrote: > > I've been getting paid to help salvage steel from an old guy's back- 40. Old > heavy trucks, cars, furnaces, trailers. It just hit $200 a ton today, a $20 > jump. > > On 11/04/2008, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Or you can still phone Canam at their expense several times a day at > > 1-877-245-5011 and tell then what you think about thieves. > > You can call the movers who stole the boat, at your expense ( pennies > > ) at 250 746-7400 and express yourself to them. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > > "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > Even scrap steel seems to be becoming a valuable commodity: Can- Am > > > metal recyclers of Nanaimo illegally accepted a stolen Brent Swain 36 > > > bare hull, fully detailed in stainless, for their cutters to > > > dismantle, no questions asked. > > > > > > Last week the owners of a near-one-hundred-year-old cable-laying > > > ship, the Brico, took the ship apart on the beach where it had been > > > parked as a restaurant for perhaps 40 years. The value in scrap must > > > have made it feasable to rip apart the riveted-steel ship and send it > > > off for cashmoney. Put a lock on your sheets of steel, and even when > > > your bare hull is complete keep an eye on it! > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > > "Gary H. Lucas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > We just got a message from our steel fabricator that does all our > > > equipment > > > > skids that carbon steel just jumped 20%! > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Aaron Williams" > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:23 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be > > > declared > > > > satisfying a Mid life crisis > > > > > > > > > > > > >I bet it is 50% higher today and going up $10.00 or more a day now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: J Fisher > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 5:44:09 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be > > > declared > > > > > satisfying a Mid life crisis > > > > > > > > > > When I quoted steel for a BS40 last fall it was about $12,000 US > > > including > > > > > stainless. > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message----- -- > > > > > > > > > > From: cptcrunch100 > > > > > Date: 4/8/2008 7:31:41 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] would stretching a BS40 to 42 be declared > > > > > satisfying > > > > > a Mid life crisis > > > > > > > > > > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > > > > > > > > > Hull: > > > > > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > > > > > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > > > > > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > > > > > > > > > Deck: > > > > > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > > > > > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > > > > > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > > > > > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > > > > > > > > > Stiffeners: > > > > > 10-1"x1"x1/4" x20' angle > > > > > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > > > > > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > > > > > > > > > Keel (single) > > > > > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > > > > > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > > > > > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > > > > > > > > > Considering this as a list of basic materials does anybody have an > > > > > approx cost or someone to use as a reference > > > > > > > > > > Also I would definitly br going the bilge keel route > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17164|16991|2008-04-11 22:53:38|Aaron Williams|Re: Argo - the complete story|Has anyone noticed the amount of volcanic activity in the last few years is on the rise. Maybe the country of Dubai has over built and is causing it all. Just wait till the worlds largest damn in China gets full and the earth spins out of balance and we shoot off towards the Andromeda Galaxy. No wait it's just God getting ready to start over since we earthling are truly a disapointment. GIVE IT A REST I hope to post some new boat pix soon. LOL Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 5:55:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story Yes and the burning of oil and coal by man has warmed the rest of the present and what where planets but no longer in our galaxy. Jon --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > the average surface temperature of Pluto has increased by slightly less than > 2 degrees Celsius over the past 14 years. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17165|16991|2008-04-11 22:59:17|Aaron Williams|Re: Argo - the complete story|Sorry, I was just having fun for a moment there. Aaron _._,___ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17166|16991|2008-04-11 23:31:08|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - the complete story|LOL Makes you ask when is the UN going to take on Volcanos and Continental Drift before we all join as one big super continent where the bounderies are blured. What about controling the sun growing.Sorry the weather is finaly breaking for a short spell need to get back to boat building. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Has anyone noticed the amount of volcanic activity in the last few years is on the rise. Maybe the country of Dubai has over built and is causing it all. Just wait till the worlds largest damn in China gets full and the earth spins out of balance and we shoot off towards the Andromeda Galaxy. No wait it's just God getting ready to start over since we earthling are truly a disapointment. > GIVE IT A REST > I hope to post some new boat pix soon. > LOL Aaron | 17167|16991|2008-04-12 01:58:15|Aaron Williams|Re: Argo - the complete story|The weather broke here to 6" more snow and this morning it was 6 deg F or -14C I was realy hoping to get more done this spring but it feels like I blinked and missed summer. Hello blues of winter. Come on Globle warming. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 7:31:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story LOL Makes you ask when is the UN going to take on Volcanos and Continental Drift before we all join as one big super continent where the bounderies are blured. What about controling the sun growing.Sorry the weather is finaly breaking for a short spell need to get back to boat building. Jon --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Has anyone noticed the amount of volcanic activity in the last few years is on the rise. Maybe the country of Dubai has over built and is causing it all. Just wait till the worlds largest damn in China gets full and the earth spins out of balance and we shoot off towards the Andromeda Galaxy. No wait it's just God getting ready to start over since we earthling are truly a disapointment. > GIVE IT A REST > I hope to post some new boat pix soon. > LOL Aaron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17168|17136|2008-04-12 04:37:05|compaxboats|Boat plans|Gents can you please direct me to sites where i can see and buy origami PLANS and basic details of the 36 ft bilge keeler. I have looked under files "A" all i find are photos and more photos. What i am looking for is something like this https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp? dept=497 something that i can read see details, look at basic dimensions etc. I find Yahoo groups difficult to navigate through endless photos, where are PLANS that show lines, details of bulkheads etc. and then a photo link showing how all this was done step by step. I will really appreciate your input.| 17169|17169|2008-04-12 04:52:13|compaxboats|boat plans|i found origamimagic.com looks good| 17170|16991|2008-04-12 08:25:23|pynrc@aol.com|Re: Argo - the complete story|There's a missprint for this thread's heading. Shouldn't it be Agro instead of Argo ??? Happy building, Richard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17171|16991|2008-04-12 08:26:41|James|Re: Argo - the complete story|Bored . On 4/12/08, pynrc@... wrote: > > There's a missprint for this thread's heading. Shouldn't it be Agro > instead > of Argo ??? > Happy building, Richard. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17172|17136|2008-04-12 11:34:58|James Pronk|Re: Boat plans|You need to go into the files section, it is the one just above the photos, below Post. If you go down about 20 files you will come to "A plans price list" Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350, and $500 for the 40. Below that is "A-CONTACT and BOOK ORDER INFORMATION -- BRENT SWAIN" Postal & e-mail addresses for Brent Swain, plus information on how to order his book. Two down from that is A-CONTACT INFORMATION - DVD ORDERS ALEX CHRISTIE Contact information for ordering the twin DVD set, ORIGAMIBOATS: THE ART OF STEEL BOATBUILDING And right below that is An Origamiboat model pattern Build your own origamiboat model simply by printing this out, cutting to the lines and taping together. Once you've done this, you'll understand exactly how the full-sized boats are built. Regular paper will work, but for best results, transfer lines to cereal-box cardboard. And if you go down another 25 or so from there you will find Material List for 40 footer Steel list for building a 40 footer Material List Swain 26' List of materials for 26' Materials List Steel list for building a 31 and 36 foot Origamiboat Also this is a link for the Yago Project, it has not been updated for a long time but it is full of great info. http://www.yago-project.com/ I was looking at other designs and I was very close to starting another design when I found out about the Origami boat building method. It has really changed the way I look at the hole building process, and I would not even consider building any other way. I have started my project from the other end. I am collecting stainless steel and I have started building mooring bitts, chocks, self steering gear and other small bitts that I can store in my garage. I have close to 2000lb of lead for ballast. Tropical hard wood and plywood for the interior. I am hoping to keep doing this over the next year or so and then see if I can take the time to start building. Good luck with this info and I hope it is useful to you, James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "compaxboats" wrote: > > Gents can you please direct me to sites where i can see and buy origami > PLANS and basic details of the 36 ft bilge keeler. I have looked under > files "A" all i find are photos and more photos. What i am looking for > is something like this https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp? > dept=497 something that i can read see details, look at basic > dimensions etc. I find Yahoo groups difficult to navigate through > endless photos, where are PLANS that show lines, details of bulkheads > etc. and then a photo link showing how all this was done step by step. > > I will really appreciate your input. > | 17173|17173|2008-04-12 11:36:26|jeagle999|Rules|Re BS30 Is it the length or the motor size or a combination of length and motor size that keeps it out of the government eye? Where do I find the regulation for Canada and USA? Web Site? J| 17174|17173|2008-04-12 12:45:48|slade green|Re: Rules|If the motor has less than 10 hp you do not require an operators certificate(Canada) jeagle999 wrote: Re BS30 Is it the length or the motor size or a combination of length and motor size that keeps it out of the government eye? Where do I find the regulation for Canada and USA? Web Site? J __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17175|17136|2008-04-12 13:42:50|brentswain38|Re: Boat plans|For plans for the 36, please send $350 to 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 Thanks Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "compaxboats" wrote: > > Gents can you please direct me to sites where i can see and buy origami > PLANS and basic details of the 36 ft bilge keeler. I have looked under > files "A" all i find are photos and more photos. What i am looking for > is something like this https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp? > dept=497 something that i can read see details, look at basic > dimensions etc. I find Yahoo groups difficult to navigate through > endless photos, where are PLANS that show lines, details of bulkheads > etc. and then a photo link showing how all this was done step by step. > > I will really appreciate your input. > | 17176|17086|2008-04-13 03:21:57|will jones|Re: wood treatment|Here are some links from my database on wood preservation http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/lumber.html http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/NCR/NCR-134.html http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn124.pdf http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/protecting-wood-from-humidity.pdf http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/pressroom/newsreleases/nr-2007feb15-deck-maintenance.html http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/schein-wood-design/1968-wooddesign-C.pdf http://www.mm.helsinki.fi/mmeko/tutkimus/SUNARE/pdf/54_Hyvonen_etal.pdf http://www.sfp.forprod.vt.edu/factsheets/beeswax.pdf http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/5986 will jones wrote: In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the performance being realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat as to any enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. Remove them from the equation and your performance will probably be the same with proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the surface that a resin can bind to. Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes added to it to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 or 4 or a week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more protection nor moisture resistance than raw. I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished wood, but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the surface due to the added varnish. Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and mildew/fungus loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. But, in no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a base support that a topcoat can bind to. With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin into the wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a compatible base for the topcoat to bind to. edrapela@... wrote: There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner (depending on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by raw linseed oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. Follow this with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the desired level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing porous woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides stayed nice for more than 3 years even in the California sun. Cheers, Ed From: will jones Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water resistance in wet or humid environments. Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for water resistance. jameshawk99 wrote: Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. Check it out on the net. Jim Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17177|17177|2008-04-13 04:01:13|Alex|47 foot steel origami yacht|FYI, I found an unfinished 47 foot steel origami yacht up at Stone's boatyard in Nanaimo, about which I was told that the owner had started, put a lot of labour and money into, but has now stalled out. Tony, who was showing me his 30 footer (which he finished in 22 months), said that the guy had spent about 6 years working on his boat project and still not launched yet. Lots of interesting details on the hull: Check out the twin drives, one in the aft end of each bilge keel! Anyhow, I always try and document any origami yachts out there, and was startled to see this one sitting on the hard. It is called "Ripples". Dunno, maybe he'll sell it if you wanted a boat that big? Photos are up in the "A 47 foot steel Origami Yacht" Folder in photos. Alex| 17178|17173|2008-04-13 04:03:22|Alex|Re: Rules|I'm pretty sure it's the motor size alone which determines whether the govt leaves you alone (also do not require an operator's certificate, I believe, so you can't be fined for not having it). Tony made the boat 30 feet to keep the American government off his back when in the USA, and the 9.9 HP motor to keep the Canadians off his back when in Canada (home port, Nanaimo, Canada). Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeagle999" wrote: > > > > Re BS30 > > Is it the length or the motor size or a combination of length and motor size that keeps it out > of the government eye? Where do I find the regulation for Canada and USA? Web Site? > > > J > | 17179|17173|2008-04-13 04:11:25|Alex|Re: Rules|One great thing about motors that use the same body and cowling is that you can swap in a larger horsepower motor and simply put the 10 hp cowling back on (with the decal), and nobody will bother you. Between a 10hp and a 15hp of the same brand there is often no difference in the size of the actual engine. I'm just sayin. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, slade green wrote: > > If the motor has less than 10 hp you do not require an operators certificate(Canada) > > jeagle999 wrote: > > Re BS30 > > Is it the length or the motor size or a combination of length and motor size that keeps it out > of the government eye? Where do I find the regulation for Canada and USA? Web Site? > > J > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17180|17173|2008-04-13 09:42:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: Rules|On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 08:11:21AM -0000, Alex wrote: > One great thing about motors that use the same body and cowling is > that you can swap in a larger horsepower motor and simply put the 10 > hp cowling back on (with the decal), and nobody will bother you. > Between a 10hp and a 15hp of the same brand there is often no > difference in the size of the actual engine. > > I'm just sayin. I recall a friend on another boat (a marine mechanic) installing a carb kit on his Nissan OB that turned it from a 5HP into a 10HP. When I asked him if that wasn't a little dangerous - overloading the motor and so on - he said "the kit is from Nissan. It's the only difference between their 5HP and the 10." This used to be a common thing with electronics, too: in many cases, installing a $0.10 capacitor or cutting the leads to one or two diodes (or just cutting a wire jumper) would add a lot of capabilities (LSB/USB tuning, broader receive/transmit range, narrower filtering to prevent interference, etc.) to the factory units. These were "improvements" that would cost hundreds of dollars if the factory performed them. These days, you can easily find all that stuff on the Net. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17181|17177|2008-04-13 10:16:06|Carl Anderson|Re: 47 foot steel origami yacht|That boat was started by Ernie and I've had a tour of it. He's done a lot of things that I wold not do on my boat. The diesel/hydraulic drive is a little strange (not very energy efficient in my opinion). But it is a large origami type boat and it is near completion! As I recall his biggest problem is getting a crane to move it to the water.(he told me that it would take two moves to do that) Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Alex wrote: > > > FYI, I found an unfinished 47 foot steel origami yacht up at Stone's > boatyard in Nanaimo, about which I was told that the owner had > started, put a lot of labour and money into, but has now stalled out. > Tony, who was showing me his 30 footer (which he finished in 22 > months), said that the guy had spent about 6 years working on his boat > project and still not launched yet. > > Lots of interesting details on the hull: Check out the twin drives, > one in the aft end of each bilge keel! > > Anyhow, I always try and document any origami yachts out there, and > was startled to see this one sitting on the hard. It is called > "Ripples". Dunno, maybe he'll sell it if you wanted a boat that big? > > Photos are up in the "A 47 foot steel Origami Yacht" Folder in photos. > > Alex > > | 17182|17173|2008-04-13 10:22:05|Carl Anderson|Re: Rules|The US rule that he is referring to is the "yacht fee" which applies to every US boat re-entering US waters that is 31' or longer. A charge of $30 (last I looked) for this fee and you are given a yearly decal to affix to your boat to show that you have paid the fee. Pretty minor item in my opinion compared to such things as annual documentation fee, property taxes, annual state registration fee, and all the other little things that you are constantly getting in your wallet to pay. But as I have just read in a book by the Pardey's "don't go cruising to avoid paying any taxes as you will always have to in the end". Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Alex wrote: > > > I'm pretty sure it's the motor size alone which determines whether the > govt leaves you alone (also do not require an operator's certificate, > I believe, so you can't be fined for not having it). Tony made the > boat 30 feet to keep the American government off his back when in the > USA, and the 9.9 HP motor to keep the Canadians off his back when in > Canada (home port, Nanaimo, Canada). > > Alex > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "jeagle999" wrote: > > > > > > > > Re BS30 > > > > Is it the length or the motor size or a combination of length and > motor size that keeps it out > > of the government eye? Where do I find the regulation for Canada > and USA? Web Site? > > > > > > J > > > > | 17183|17177|2008-04-13 15:02:11|Aaron Williams|Re: 47 foot steel origami yacht|I have been pondering wether to put twin e-pods just inside each keel or a pair of Mars brushless in the keels just like Ripples has. I was also thinking of installing the propshaft tube for a generator only prop. I know it sure seams strange to go to that much expence but it will all work out to about the same as if I bought a new 50hp diesel. Not that I would, I just have not found anything in my area not even a good diesel rabbit to be found anymore. Diesel here is at $4 Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: Alex To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 12:01:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] 47 foot steel origami yacht FYI, I found an unfinished 47 foot steel origami yacht up at Stone's boatyard in Nanaimo, about which I was told that the owner had started, put a lot of labour and money into, but has now stalled out. Tony, who was showing me his 30 footer (which he finished in 22 months), said that the guy had spent about 6 years working on his boat project and still not launched yet. Lots of interesting details on the hull: Check out the twin drives, one in the aft end of each bilge keel! Anyhow, I always try and document any origami yachts out there, and was startled to see this one sitting on the hard. It is called "Ripples". Dunno, maybe he'll sell it if you wanted a boat that big? Photos are up in the "A 47 foot steel Origami Yacht" Folder in photos. Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17184|17086|2008-04-14 09:02:07|will jones|Re: wood treatment|I am not sure, I just use a brand by Watco just called Danish Oil here in the States. Basically, it is just linseed oil with varnish added in order to bring it slightly above the surface (if you want to) and impart more moisture resistance. If you check the ingredients and it says linseed or tung oil and varnish or resins, it is probably similar. It is still soft, as any natural oil/wax preservative is and still transmits water vapour. An easy test of this is to take a piece of wood, sand it, treat it and then set a nice highball on the rocks on a warm humid day on the wood. If you get a waxy looking ring, I wouldn't use it for a base for paint. Alkyd resins are cheap, readily available and you get a really good bang for your buck in performance. James wrote: Will , is your Danish oil the same as we in Scotland call Decks Oilye ( or similar ) ? James On 4/11/08, will jones wrote: > > In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the performance being > realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat as to any > enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. Remove > them from the equation and your performance will probably be the same with > proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the surface > that a resin can bind to. > > Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes added to it > to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 or 4 or a > week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more > protection nor moisture resistance than raw. > > I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished wood, > but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the surface > due to the added varnish. > > Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and mildew/fungus > loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. But, in > no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a base support > that a topcoat can bind to. > > With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin into the > wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, > waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a compatible > base for the topcoat to bind to. > > edrapela@... wrote: > There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have > always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner (depending > on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by raw linseed > oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. Follow this > with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full > strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the desired > level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing porous > woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides stayed nice > for more than 3 years even in the California sun. > > Cheers, > Ed > > From: will jones > Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It > is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg > hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural > oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to > readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want > some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up > finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water > resistance in wet or humid environments. > > Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for > water resistance. > > jameshawk99 wrote: > Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates > deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few > coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. > Check it out on the net. > > Jim > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > Total Access, No Cost. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17185|17150|2008-04-14 09:13:10|will jones|Re: Wood treatment - polyurethane|I'm with Brent here. I jumped on the polyurethane bandwagon quite a number of years ago and found a similar performance for clear coats. This stuff is a tough coating that will debond easily upon impact or over time. Even with UV additives, it still flakes off in strips after a period of time. Seems a few years into using it UV resistance reaches a max then it is downhill from there. The best performance I've gotten from a clear coat is with a spar varnish. Seems the old stuff works quite well. If you have wood, it is best to keep good sandpaper around, because you will be using it. It is just a matter of when. :) brentswain38 wrote: The wooden mast on my first boat had 14 coats of varathane on it. Altho the wood had air dried for several years , when I was shipwrecked in Fiji the mast was very heavy. The varathane had all fallen of the first three feet where the spray off the deck had been hitting it, but above that it was perfect. It took me and two very large Fijians to move it. . It was shipped deck cargo back to BC. By the time it got her, all the urethane was blasted of and it was much lighter. I could easily move it myself. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi all. > I found this on another group that I belong to and it deals with > treating wood. Hope it helps. > > "Hi! > > MY take on POLYURETHANE > > As a result of reading various reports, I have begun to use > polyurethane as well > on my modified homebuilt Glen-L design wooden sharpie. Where original > called > for "varnish" I have stained and then used transparent polyurethane > and it has > held up great! I am gradually replacing all "varnished" wood with > this. > > Two warnings I want to extend! > > FIRST AND FOREMOST be sure this is exterior UV resistive > polyurethane! Not the > normal stuff from the shelf in ACE although they can order what you > need. > > SECOND, this stuff DOES NOT COME OFF like removing paint. It reminds > me of > epoxy. If you apply it, there is no easy turning back! DO NOT get it > on > anything where you don't want it! I think the only way to get this > off is by > sanding.. a lot! > > I had a bit leftover so in 2002 I painted a small house sign which > hangs over > the chain link gate at my mothers house in Arizona. It has withstood > the > Arizona sun and temperatures in the 100's and still looks great today > and thats > 6 years later! No signs of yellowing or discoloration. I am convinced > it it > can handle Arizona desert, it can hold up to most anything. The > varnish started > coming off my garden tools in AZ and I have polyurethaned all the > handles now > and leave them wherever. LOL > > I recently dined at a Mexican restaurant in Benson, AZ and they had > coated their > wooden tables with it. He said they poured it over. and when it > hardened it was > maybe 1/16 in thick. They sat hot dishes and kettles on it (not > recommended, > but I saw them do it) and spills wipe off like it was glass. This is > AMAZING > STUFF and It appears even tougher than I ever imagined! > > On my boat I am hooked on the varnished look! I may revert to a > wooden mast, > just so I could have the appearance of all varnished spars! > > If you want to see the look for yourself, buy a small 1/2 pint can at > ACE (any > shelf type is fine just to see the look) and a bit of stain and do a > piece of > oak closet rod, don't be afraid to put it on thick.. you can even > pour it over. > OR buy a tiny bit of the UV resistant kind, paint a yard sign or rake > handle and > leave it out in the weather and see for yourself. > > By now, I bet you have figured out I am hooked on this stuff! > > Regards, > > Andrew" > > This was taken from the low cost voyaging group on yahoo. > Cheers Rowland > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17186|16991|2008-04-14 09:54:54|will jones|Re: Argo - the complete story|Man the amount of misinformation and manipulated information is amazing in this thread. It is quite funny how you folks twist facts. I work with a majority of the stable isotopes used in climatology (2H, 18O, 37Cl, 87Sr, 34S and quite a few others). Even though not a climatologist, this is where the money is and hence the data I use to support my work. That is, I read climatology, entemology, forestry, geologic and other papers on the use of isotopes. I also sample a broad spectrum and exploite these works for my own work. The funny thing is that most of what each of you say is correct, but just a little twisted in the overall scheme of things. There is no doubt that anthropogenic influences have interfered with normal sequestering of CO2 while at the same time releasing a constantly increasing level of CO2 into the atmosphere. There is no doubt that one of the largest ramp up of temperatures in a very short time frame is due to man. Over the past hundred years, humans have averaged over 60 million tons of C02 released per day. Mt St Helens and Pinatubo didn't even put out 40% of this value in one time events. And we do this every day. There is no doubt that increased CO2 levels raise surface level temperatures. There still are questions on how CO2 was mediated and in what time period, back in history, but then history has not demonstrated as large a pervasive increase in CO2 in a short time frame. We can quibble over the various orbital periods or draw the conclusion that if we are pumping this much CO2 into the atmosphere, decreasing the earth's ability to sequester the CO2, and we are on the short side of a galactic (not a sun/earth) orbit, man it is going to get hot. Or is it? Will the CO2 reach a limiting factor and actually buffer our temperature, staving off the inevitable 100K yr+ glaciation? Do differences in ice cores and sediments reflect flaws with hypothesis, different localize and/or regional climatology, different geology or a need for more data for model calibration? Guess what, it is all of the above and then some. And yes Virginia, 0.7C on a global scale is significant. 2-3C is very significant. Hedge and buy stock in air conditioning and sunblock companies. :) Most of you are presenting some reasonable facts, but the jury is still out on the conclusions. But does it make sense to continue to emit this much CO2 and destroy the planet's ability to mediate CO2 when we can fix most of it? Much like shx*@&)! in your own stewpot and as we should, go the way of the other prior at least 3 dominant species in the history of this planet. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17187|17086|2008-04-14 10:43:37|Shane Duncan|Re: wood treatment|if anyone is interested, ClassicBoat magazine (March 2008) have just completed a four year continual wood sample exposure test using 12 different woodfinishing products varnish, water based, solvent based, two pack and flexible polyurethane i haven't read the whole article as the only material i've been using so for the last 2 months has been steel. but their conclusion was Coelan flexible polyurethane wins overall, although it is by far the most expensive at 58 pounds per m^3 ----- Original Message ---- From: will jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:02:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment I am not sure, I just use a brand by Watco just called Danish Oil here in the States. Basically, it is just linseed oil with varnish added in order to bring it slightly above the surface (if you want to) and impart more moisture resistance. If you check the ingredients and it says linseed or tung oil and varnish or resins, it is probably similar. It is still soft, as any natural oil/wax preservative is and still transmits water vapour. An easy test of this is to take a piece of wood, sand it, treat it and then set a nice highball on the rocks on a warm humid day on the wood. If you get a waxy looking ring, I wouldn't use it for a base for paint. Alkyd resins are cheap, readily available and you get a really good bang for your buck in performance. James wrote: Will , is your Danish oil the same as we in Scotland call Decks Oilye ( or similar ) ? James On 4/11/08, will jones wrote: > > In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the performance being > realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat as to any > enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. Remove > them from the equation and your performance will probably be the same with > proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the surface > that a resin can bind to. > > Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes added to it > to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 or 4 or a > week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more > protection nor moisture resistance than raw. > > I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished wood, > but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the surface > due to the added varnish. > > Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and mildew/fungus > loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. But, in > no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a base support > that a topcoat can bind to. > > With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin into the > wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, > waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a compatible > base for the topcoat to bind to. > > edrapela@... wrote: > There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have > always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner (depending > on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by raw linseed > oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. Follow this > with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full > strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the desired > level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing porous > woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides stayed nice > for more than 3 years even in the California sun. > > Cheers, > Ed > > From: will jones > Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It > is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg > hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural > oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to > readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want > some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up > finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water > resistance in wet or humid environments. > > Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for > water resistance. > > jameshawk99 wrote: > Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates > deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few > coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. > Check it out on the net. > > Jim > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > Total Access, No Cost. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17188|17086|2008-04-14 10:52:05|Shane Duncan|Re: wood treatment|sorry that's 58 pounds per m^2 not m^3 ----- Original Message ---- From: Shane Duncan To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 11:43:35 PM Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment if anyone is interested, ClassicBoat magazine (March 2008) have just completed a four year continual wood sample exposure test using 12 different woodfinishing products varnish, water based, solvent based, two pack and flexible polyurethane i haven't read the whole article as the only material i've been using so for the last 2 months has been steel. but their conclusion was Coelan flexible polyurethane wins overall, although it is by far the most expensive at 58 pounds per m^3 ----- Original Message ---- From: will jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:02:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment I am not sure, I just use a brand by Watco just called Danish Oil here in the States. Basically, it is just linseed oil with varnish added in order to bring it slightly above the surface (if you want to) and impart more moisture resistance. If you check the ingredients and it says linseed or tung oil and varnish or resins, it is probably similar. It is still soft, as any natural oil/wax preservative is and still transmits water vapour. An easy test of this is to take a piece of wood, sand it, treat it and then set a nice highball on the rocks on a warm humid day on the wood. If you get a waxy looking ring, I wouldn't use it for a base for paint. Alkyd resins are cheap, readily available and you get a really good bang for your buck in performance. James wrote: Will , is your Danish oil the same as we in Scotland call Decks Oilye ( or similar ) ? James On 4/11/08, will jones wrote: > > In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the performance being > realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat as to any > enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. Remove > them from the equation and your performance will probably be the same with > proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the surface > that a resin can bind to. > > Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes added to it > to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 or 4 or a > week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more > protection nor moisture resistance than raw. > > I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished wood, > but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the surface > due to the added varnish. > > Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and mildew/fungus > loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. But, in > no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a base support > that a topcoat can bind to. > > With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin into the > wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, > waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a compatible > base for the topcoat to bind to. > > edrapela@... wrote: > There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have > always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner (depending > on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by raw linseed > oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. Follow this > with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full > strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the desired > level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing porous > woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides stayed nice > for more than 3 years even in the California sun. > > Cheers, > Ed > > From: will jones > Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It > is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg > hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural > oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to > readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want > some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up > finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water > resistance in wet or humid environments. > > Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for > water resistance. > > jameshawk99 wrote: > Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates > deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few > coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. > Check it out on the net. > > Jim > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > Total Access, No Cost. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17189|17189|2008-04-14 13:16:26|jeagle999|Ripples, what type of motors?|In ripples there are motors in each keel. Does anyone know what type of motors are in the keels? J| 17190|17190|2008-04-14 13:21:44|jeagle999|E-pod mounted on the rudder?|Would it be possible to mount an e-pod on the rudder? google re-e-power, j| 17191|17189|2008-04-14 13:29:02|Carl Anderson|Re: Ripples, what type of motors?|Ernie told me that he put hydraulic drives in each keel. Powered with a central diesel engine in the hull. Carl jeagle999 wrote: > > > > In ripples there are motors in each keel. Does anyone know what type of > motors are in the > keels? > > J > > | 17192|17086|2008-04-14 13:30:20|brentswain38|Re: wood treatment|I can't imagine a greater waste of time and money than treating wood that will end up inside a locker. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > if anyone is interested, ClassicBoat magazine (March 2008) > have just completed a four year continual wood sample exposure test > using 12 different woodfinishing products > > varnish, water based, solvent based, two pack and flexible polyurethane > i haven't read the whole article as the only material i've been using so for the last 2 months has been steel. > but their conclusion was Coelan flexible polyurethane wins overall, > although it is by far the most expensive at 58 pounds per m^3 > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: will jones > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:02:05 PM > Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > I am not sure, I just use a brand by Watco just called Danish Oil here in the States. Basically, it is just linseed oil with varnish added in order to bring it slightly above the surface (if you want to) and impart more moisture resistance. If you check the ingredients and it says linseed or tung oil and varnish or resins, it is probably similar. It is still soft, as any natural oil/wax preservative is and still transmits water vapour. An easy test of this is to take a piece of wood, sand it, treat it and then set a nice highball on the rocks on a warm humid day on the wood. If you get a waxy looking ring, I wouldn't use it for a base for paint. > > Alkyd resins are cheap, readily available and you get a really good bang for your buck in performance. > > James wrote: > Will , is your Danish oil the same as we in Scotland call Decks Oilye ( or > similar ) ? James > > On 4/11/08, will jones wrote: > > > > In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the performance being > > realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat as to any > > enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. Remove > > them from the equation and your performance will probably be the same with > > proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the surface > > that a resin can bind to. > > > > Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes added to it > > to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 or 4 or a > > week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more > > protection nor moisture resistance than raw. > > > > I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished wood, > > but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the surface > > due to the added varnish. > > > > Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and mildew/fungus > > loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. But, in > > no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a base support > > that a topcoat can bind to. > > > > With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin into the > > wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, > > waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a compatible > > base for the topcoat to bind to. > > > > edrapela@... wrote: > > There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have > > always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner (depending > > on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by raw linseed > > oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. Follow this > > with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full > > strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the desired > > level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing porous > > woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides stayed nice > > for more than 3 years even in the California sun. > > > > Cheers, > > Ed > > > > From: will jones > > Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > > > Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It > > is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg > > hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural > > oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to > > readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want > > some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up > > finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water > > resistance in wet or humid environments. > > > > Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for > > water resistance. > > > > jameshawk99 wrote: > > Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates > > deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few > > coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. > > Check it out on the net. > > > > Jim > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --------------------------------- > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > > Total Access, No Cost. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17193|17193|2008-04-14 14:55:57|mickeyolaf|Serge, the yacht rigger.|Does anybody on Vancouver Island have the phone number of Serge, (last name not known), who rigs spars on Vancouver Island?| 17194|17086|2008-04-14 16:58:03|will jones|Re: wood treatment|Solid wood is a six sided product that greatly differentially expands and contracts with available moisture, often to the detriment of the outside or visible layer. I at least prime use a cheap varnish to seal all six sides before assembly. Of course this applies less to plywood, but still I will prime or use varnish on unexposed areas. A few extra pennies do not hurt, especially in a locker. brentswain38 wrote: I can't imagine a greater waste of time and money than treating wood that will end up inside a locker. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > if anyone is interested, ClassicBoat magazine (March 2008) > have just completed a four year continual wood sample exposure test > using 12 different woodfinishing products > > varnish, water based, solvent based, two pack and flexible polyurethane > i haven't read the whole article as the only material i've been using so for the last 2 months has been steel. > but their conclusion was Coelan flexible polyurethane wins overall, > although it is by far the most expensive at 58 pounds per m^3 > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: will jones > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:02:05 PM > Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > I am not sure, I just use a brand by Watco just called Danish Oil here in the States. Basically, it is just linseed oil with varnish added in order to bring it slightly above the surface (if you want to) and impart more moisture resistance. If you check the ingredients and it says linseed or tung oil and varnish or resins, it is probably similar. It is still soft, as any natural oil/wax preservative is and still transmits water vapour. An easy test of this is to take a piece of wood, sand it, treat it and then set a nice highball on the rocks on a warm humid day on the wood. If you get a waxy looking ring, I wouldn't use it for a base for paint. > > Alkyd resins are cheap, readily available and you get a really good bang for your buck in performance. > > James wrote: > Will , is your Danish oil the same as we in Scotland call Decks Oilye ( or > similar ) ? James > > On 4/11/08, will jones wrote: > > > > In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the performance being > > realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat as to any > > enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. Remove > > them from the equation and your performance will probably be the same with > > proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the surface > > that a resin can bind to. > > > > Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes added to it > > to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 or 4 or a > > week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more > > protection nor moisture resistance than raw. > > > > I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished wood, > > but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the surface > > due to the added varnish. > > > > Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and mildew/fungus > > loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. But, in > > no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a base support > > that a topcoat can bind to. > > > > With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin into the > > wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, > > waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a compatible > > base for the topcoat to bind to. > > > > edrapela@... wrote: > > There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have > > always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner (depending > > on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by raw linseed > > oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. Follow this > > with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full > > strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the desired > > level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing porous > > woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides stayed nice > > for more than 3 years even in the California sun. > > > > Cheers, > > Ed > > > > From: will jones > > Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > > > Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It > > is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg > > hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural > > oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to > > readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want > > some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up > > finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water > > resistance in wet or humid environments. > > > > Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for > > water resistance. > > > > jameshawk99 wrote: > > Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates > > deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few > > coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. > > Check it out on the net. > > > > Jim > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --------------------------------- > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > > Total Access, No Cost. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17195|16991|2008-04-14 22:36:05|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - the complete story|The problem is there is no scientific evidance that suports CO2 or the other green house gases listed by the IPCC as the FORCING AGENT cause of temp change. The best and cheapest way to sequester CO2 if you wanted to would be turn it into baking soada cheap to do and in a solid form. Not a lot if money to be made with out fancy gizmoes. Why sequester CO2 plants grow faster stronger amd sequester more CO2 at 700ppm then at 380ppm and can stand the oncomeing cold better. Jon Earth where more people die from cold then warm and man is so arrogant he thinks he can controle the climate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Man the amount of misinformation and manipulated information is amazing in this thread. It is quite funny how you folks twist facts. > I work with a majority of the stable isotopes used in climatology (2H, 18O, 37Cl, 87Sr, 34S and quite a few others). Even though not a climatologist, this is where the money is and hence the data I use to support my work. That is, I read climatology, entemology, forestry, geologic and other papers on the use of isotopes. I also sample a broad spectrum and exploite these works for my own work. > The funny thing is that most of what each of you say is correct, but just a little twisted in the overall scheme of things. There is no doubt that anthropogenic influences have interfered with normal sequestering of CO2 while at the same time releasing a constantly increasing level of CO2 into the atmosphere. There is no doubt that one of the largest ramp up of temperatures in a very short time frame is due to man. Over the past hundred years, humans have averaged over 60 million tons of C02 released per day. Mt St Helens and Pinatubo didn't even put out 40% of this value in one time events. And we do this every day. There is no doubt that increased CO2 levels raise surface level temperatures. There still are questions on how CO2 was mediated and in what time period, back in history, but then history has not demonstrated as large a pervasive increase in CO2 in a short time frame. > We can quibble over the various orbital periods or draw the conclusion that if we are pumping this much CO2 into the atmosphere, decreasing the earth's ability to sequester the CO2, and we are on the short side of a galactic (not a sun/earth) orbit, man it is going to get hot. Or is it? Will the CO2 reach a limiting factor and actually buffer our temperature, staving off the inevitable 100K yr+ glaciation? Do differences in ice cores and sediments reflect flaws with hypothesis, different localize and/or regional climatology, different geology or a need for more data for model calibration? Guess what, it is all of the above and then some. And yes Virginia, 0.7C on a global scale is significant. 2-3C is very significant. Hedge and buy stock in air conditioning and sunblock companies. :) > Most of you are presenting some reasonable facts, but the jury is still out on the conclusions. But does it make sense to continue to emit this much CO2 and destroy the planet's ability to mediate CO2 when we can fix most of it? Much like shx*@&)! in your own stewpot and as we should, go the way of the other prior at least 3 dominant species in the history of this planet. > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17196|17196|2008-04-15 09:17:33|edward_stoneuk|Holding Tank|FYI. In the photo section, 36' Fly folder, I have posted a picture of the start of the installation of our holding tank. The tank has previously been used for holding chemicals and is lined with a white translucent plastic. The outside is PP or PE. From the top right the connections are; Inlet from the Lavac heads pump Outlet to the deck pump out connection Outlet to the sea cock Valve Pointing down behind the tank feed back to the heads pump for emptying the tank. The inlet to the tank, which is fitted into a gland plate we made to fit the top of the tank. The inlet pipe reaches to the base of the tank to enable pumping out. Vent pipes to through holes in the topsides under the deck are to be fitted. I read this in Lavac's instructions. Regards, Ted| 17197|16991|2008-04-15 10:20:07|will jones|Re: Argo - the complete story|From one standpoint your arguments are valid, however they do not stand up to reasonable scrutinity. Yes, unfortunately when, before or after temps increase or decrease has not been clarified. That is still an issue being researched. However, so called greenhouse gases have been consistently and associatively measured with temp changes. Perhaps they are not causative and just merely a resultant of these effects. In either case, man's continued destruction of CO2 sinks and releasing of CO2 thru fossil fuel burning is demonstrating a clearly measureable effect in the short term. Perhaps that is good and we are delaying the end of the current interglacial period staving off the inevitable return to glaciation. Only time will tell for sure. :) I've used ARCGIS to predict where to buy ocean front land for each 1' of sea level increase. Anyone want to invest while inland land is cheap? I am trying to cut a deal with Universal. :-) A lot of this determination will depend on where your opinion falls in the approximately 190MY galactic orbit theory (seems also to correlate with mass extinctions), the 40K-200K Milankovitch cycles (a dude waaayyyy before his time) and their interrelationships. If we assume that the current earth temperatures are due to cyclic galactic orbital effects, then why has the pattern been broken and we are at greater temps in a phenomenally shorter time frame than history illustrates? Same applies to Milankovitch cycles (jury is still out on his predictions, but I'll wager he will be vindicated). That is, in the past 150 yrs the earth has managed to exceed max avg historical temps that took several thousands of years to reach historically. Seems if we are talking about a cyclic process that is on the order of 40K - 100K+ years that is also further mediated by a larger cyclic process on 190K years, then the argument that the temp increase over the past 200yrs is due to orbital effects alone doesn't quite make sense. Also this would not explain why the CO2 increase curve, temperature increase curve, and planetary human population growth curves are correlated. And most of this data is from direct measurement. Suuure you can find periods of drecrease and stagnation to quibble about, but the curves still go up and up and up. None of this excuses us from the real issue of enery conservation and shifting to localized energy generation where homes and buildings are built to very high conservation standards with solar production of electricity taking up some of the electrical and heating load. As this technology improves it should be able to replace most if not all of the electrical needs thougout a significant portion of the States. Working to provide economic alternatives to destruction of carbon sequestering forests and plains areas would easily and more cheaply help the situation. One could go on all day of why the hell are we using 1800's technology to build, heat and cool our homes? "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: The problem is there is no scientific evidance that suports CO2 or the other green house gases listed by the IPCC as the FORCING AGENT cause of temp change. The best and cheapest way to sequester CO2 if you wanted to would be turn it into baking soada cheap to do and in a solid form. Not a lot if money to be made with out fancy gizmoes. Why sequester CO2 plants grow faster stronger amd sequester more CO2 at 700ppm then at 380ppm and can stand the oncomeing cold better. Jon Earth where more people die from cold then warm and man is so arrogant he thinks he can controle the climate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Man the amount of misinformation and manipulated information is amazing in this thread. It is quite funny how you folks twist facts. > I work with a majority of the stable isotopes used in climatology (2H, 18O, 37Cl, 87Sr, 34S and quite a few others). Even though not a climatologist, this is where the money is and hence the data I use to support my work. That is, I read climatology, entemology, forestry, geologic and other papers on the use of isotopes. I also sample a broad spectrum and exploite these works for my own work. > The funny thing is that most of what each of you say is correct, but just a little twisted in the overall scheme of things. There is no doubt that anthropogenic influences have interfered with normal sequestering of CO2 while at the same time releasing a constantly increasing level of CO2 into the atmosphere. There is no doubt that one of the largest ramp up of temperatures in a very short time frame is due to man. Over the past hundred years, humans have averaged over 60 million tons of C02 released per day. Mt St Helens and Pinatubo didn't even put out 40% of this value in one time events. And we do this every day. There is no doubt that increased CO2 levels raise surface level temperatures. There still are questions on how CO2 was mediated and in what time period, back in history, but then history has not demonstrated as large a pervasive increase in CO2 in a short time frame. > We can quibble over the various orbital periods or draw the conclusion that if we are pumping this much CO2 into the atmosphere, decreasing the earth's ability to sequester the CO2, and we are on the short side of a galactic (not a sun/earth) orbit, man it is going to get hot. Or is it? Will the CO2 reach a limiting factor and actually buffer our temperature, staving off the inevitable 100K yr+ glaciation? Do differences in ice cores and sediments reflect flaws with hypothesis, different localize and/or regional climatology, different geology or a need for more data for model calibration? Guess what, it is all of the above and then some. And yes Virginia, 0.7C on a global scale is significant. 2-3C is very significant. Hedge and buy stock in air conditioning and sunblock companies. :) > Most of you are presenting some reasonable facts, but the jury is still out on the conclusions. But does it make sense to continue to emit this much CO2 and destroy the planet's ability to mediate CO2 when we can fix most of it? Much like shx*@&)! in your own stewpot and as we should, go the way of the other prior at least 3 dominant species in the history of this planet. > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17198|17086|2008-04-15 13:53:12|brentswain38|Re: wood treatment|With a sprayfoamed steel boat the inside stays dry and changes very little. My current interior has been bare inside the lockers for 24 years now with no major problems. Sealing wood ends up letting the moisture in thru the slightest cracks but stops evaporation from ever drying it out, increasing the risk of dry rot. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Solid wood is a six sided product that greatly differentially expands and contracts with available moisture, often to the detriment of the outside or visible layer. I at least prime use a cheap varnish to seal all six sides before assembly. Of course this applies less to plywood, but still I will prime or use varnish on unexposed areas. A few extra pennies do not hurt, especially in a locker. > > brentswain38 wrote: I can't imagine a greater waste of time and money than treating wood > that will end up inside a locker. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > if anyone is interested, ClassicBoat magazine (March 2008) > > have just completed a four year continual wood sample exposure test > > using 12 different woodfinishing products > > > > varnish, water based, solvent based, two pack and flexible polyurethane > > i haven't read the whole article as the only material i've been > using so for the last 2 months has been steel. > > but their conclusion was Coelan flexible polyurethane wins overall, > > although it is by far the most expensive at 58 pounds per m^3 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: will jones > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:02:05 PM > > Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > > > I am not sure, I just use a brand by Watco just called Danish Oil > here in the States. Basically, it is just linseed oil with varnish > added in order to bring it slightly above the surface (if you want to) > and impart more moisture resistance. If you check the ingredients and > it says linseed or tung oil and varnish or resins, it is probably > similar. It is still soft, as any natural oil/wax preservative is and > still transmits water vapour. An easy test of this is to take a piece > of wood, sand it, treat it and then set a nice highball on the rocks > on a warm humid day on the wood. If you get a waxy looking ring, I > wouldn't use it for a base for paint. > > > > Alkyd resins are cheap, readily available and you get a really > good bang for your buck in performance. > > > > James wrote: > > Will , is your Danish oil the same as we in Scotland call > Decks Oilye ( or > > similar ) ? James > > > > On 4/11/08, will jones wrote: > > > > > > In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the > performance being > > > realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat > as to any > > > enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. > Remove > > > them from the equation and your performance will probably be the > same with > > > proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the > surface > > > that a resin can bind to. > > > > > > Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes > added to it > > > to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 > or 4 or a > > > week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more > > > protection nor moisture resistance than raw. > > > > > > I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished > wood, > > > but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the > surface > > > due to the added varnish. > > > > > > Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and > mildew/fungus > > > loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. > But, in > > > no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a > base support > > > that a topcoat can bind to. > > > > > > With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin > into the > > > wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, > > > waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a > compatible > > > base for the topcoat to bind to. > > > > > > edrapela@ wrote: > > > There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have > > > always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner > (depending > > > on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by > raw linseed > > > oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. > Follow this > > > with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full > > > strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the > desired > > > level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing > porous > > > woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides > stayed nice > > > for more than 3 years even in the California sun. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Ed > > > > > > From: will jones > > > Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > > > > > Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added > to it. It > > > is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of > misleading mfg > > > hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are > natural > > > oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & > tung) to > > > readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where > you want > > > some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up > > > finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water > > > resistance in wet or humid environments. > > > > > > Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for > > > water resistance. > > > > > > jameshawk99 wrote: > > > Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates > > > deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few > > > coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. > > > Check it out on the net. > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > Valhalla > > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > > Bloomington, IN > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of > Blockbuster > > > Total Access, No Cost. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > > Bloomington, IN > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17199|17086|2008-04-15 18:34:26|will jones|Re: wood treatment|Unfortunately, I think we are into the anecdotal experience part of the debate where we square off to seal or not to seal. :-) Should present a good discussion - on guard monsieur. I've been drying wood for 13 years for wooodworking and cabinet making and moisture in - moisture out: it will follow the same path. I always cut off checks and seal the endgrain with whatever old paint I have lying around. Doesn't stop checks, but sure slows them down. I would think that solid wood would check with unsealed endgrain if it absorbed enough moisture to grow fungus. Dry rot does require over 20% moisture to propagate and so if you are in a high humidity area and your wood has the right spores, you will get dry rot. More moisture and there are a number of opportunistic fungi to chew on your wood. Endgrain does move water, but only to the limit of capillary forces. This is why you have to pump energy (heat) into wood to get it below 10% moisture or wait a few years for cell drying, hence shrinking, to push water out. Not so much an evaporative effect as overcoming capillary action. brentswain38 wrote: With a sprayfoamed steel boat the inside stays dry and changes very little. My current interior has been bare inside the lockers for 24 years now with no major problems. Sealing wood ends up letting the moisture in thru the slightest cracks but stops evaporation from ever drying it out, increasing the risk of dry rot. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Solid wood is a six sided product that greatly differentially expands and contracts with available moisture, often to the detriment of the outside or visible layer. I at least prime use a cheap varnish to seal all six sides before assembly. Of course this applies less to plywood, but still I will prime or use varnish on unexposed areas. A few extra pennies do not hurt, especially in a locker. > > brentswain38 wrote: I can't imagine a greater waste of time and money than treating wood > that will end up inside a locker. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > if anyone is interested, ClassicBoat magazine (March 2008) > > have just completed a four year continual wood sample exposure test > > using 12 different woodfinishing products > > > > varnish, water based, solvent based, two pack and flexible polyurethane > > i haven't read the whole article as the only material i've been > using so for the last 2 months has been steel. > > but their conclusion was Coelan flexible polyurethane wins overall, > > although it is by far the most expensive at 58 pounds per m^3 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: will jones > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:02:05 PM > > Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > > > I am not sure, I just use a brand by Watco just called Danish Oil > here in the States. Basically, it is just linseed oil with varnish > added in order to bring it slightly above the surface (if you want to) > and impart more moisture resistance. If you check the ingredients and > it says linseed or tung oil and varnish or resins, it is probably > similar. It is still soft, as any natural oil/wax preservative is and > still transmits water vapour. An easy test of this is to take a piece > of wood, sand it, treat it and then set a nice highball on the rocks > on a warm humid day on the wood. If you get a waxy looking ring, I > wouldn't use it for a base for paint. > > > > Alkyd resins are cheap, readily available and you get a really > good bang for your buck in performance. > > > > James wrote: > > Will , is your Danish oil the same as we in Scotland call > Decks Oilye ( or > > similar ) ? James > > > > On 4/11/08, will jones wrote: > > > > > > In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the > performance being > > > realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat > as to any > > > enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. > Remove > > > them from the equation and your performance will probably be the > same with > > > proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the > surface > > > that a resin can bind to. > > > > > > Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes > added to it > > > to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 > or 4 or a > > > week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more > > > protection nor moisture resistance than raw. > > > > > > I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished > wood, > > > but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the > surface > > > due to the added varnish. > > > > > > Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and > mildew/fungus > > > loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. > But, in > > > no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a > base support > > > that a topcoat can bind to. > > > > > > With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin > into the > > > wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, > > > waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a > compatible > > > base for the topcoat to bind to. > > > > > > edrapela@ wrote: > > > There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have > > > always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner > (depending > > > on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by > raw linseed > > > oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. > Follow this > > > with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full > > > strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the > desired > > > level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing > porous > > > woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides > stayed nice > > > for more than 3 years even in the California sun. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Ed > > > > > > From: will jones > > > Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > > > > > Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added > to it. It > > > is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of > misleading mfg > > > hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are > natural > > > oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & > tung) to > > > readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where > you want > > > some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up > > > finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water > > > resistance in wet or humid environments. > > > > > > Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for > > > water resistance. > > > > > > jameshawk99 wrote: > > > Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates > > > deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few > > > coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. > > > Check it out on the net. > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > Valhalla > > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > > Bloomington, IN > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of > Blockbuster > > > Total Access, No Cost. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > > Bloomington, IN > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17200|17086|2008-04-15 22:03:37|Carl Anderson|testing eye splices in rigging wire|Well I had two of my handmade eye splices in 1X7 pull tested. The results were amazing in neither eye splice broke. The wire itself failed at 10% above the rating it has for breaking. So I'm convinced that a hand spliced eye in 1X7 will work out just fine. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com| 17201|17201|2008-04-15 23:36:08|Aaron Williams|Re: Argo - The on going story|We burned down the forest and paved it. Now we wait for the earth to snuff us all out so in a few billion years the cycle can start all over again. Do you think anyone will remember? Or believe it could have happened before? De'juve ----- Original Message ---- From: will jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:20:04 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - the complete story From one standpoint your arguments are valid, however they do not stand up to reasonable scrutinity. Yes, unfortunately when, before or after temps increase or decrease has not been clarified. That is still an issue being researched. However, so called greenhouse gases have been consistently and associatively measured with temp changes. Perhaps they are not causative and just merely a resultant of these effects. In either case, man's continued destruction of CO2 sinks and releasing of CO2 thru fossil fuel burning is demonstrating a clearly measureable effect in the short term. Perhaps that is good and we are delaying the end of the current interglacial period staving off the inevitable return to glaciation. Only time will tell for sure. :) I've used ARCGIS to predict where to buy ocean front land for each 1' of sea level increase. Anyone want to invest while inland land is cheap? I am trying to cut a deal with Universal. :-) A lot of this determination will depend on where your opinion falls in the approximately 190MY galactic orbit theory (seems also to correlate with mass extinctions) , the 40K-200K Milankovitch cycles (a dude waaayyyy before his time) and their interrelationships. If we assume that the current earth temperatures are due to cyclic galactic orbital effects, then why has the pattern been broken and we are at greater temps in a phenomenally shorter time frame than history illustrates? Same applies to Milankovitch cycles (jury is still out on his predictions, but I'll wager he will be vindicated). That is, in the past 150 yrs the earth has managed to exceed max avg historical temps that took several thousands of years to reach historically. Seems if we are talking about a cyclic process that is on the order of 40K - 100K+ years that is also further mediated by a larger cyclic process on 190K years, then the argument that the temp increase over the past 200yrs is due to orbital effects alone doesn't quite make sense. Also this would not explain why the CO2 increase curve, temperature increase curve, and planetary human population growth curves are correlated. And most of this data is from direct measurement. Suuure you can find periods of drecrease and stagnation to quibble about, but the curves still go up and up and up. None of this excuses us from the real issue of enery conservation and shifting to localized energy generation where homes and buildings are built to very high conservation standards with solar production of electricity taking up some of the electrical and heating load. As this technology improves it should be able to replace most if not all of the electrical needs thougout a significant portion of the States. Working to provide economic alternatives to destruction of carbon sequestering forests and plains areas would easily and more cheaply help the situation. One could go on all day of why the hell are we using 1800's technology to build, heat and cool our homes? "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: The problem is there is no scientific evidance that suports CO2 or the other green house gases listed by the IPCC as the FORCING AGENT cause of temp change. The best and cheapest way to sequester CO2 if you wanted to would be turn it into baking soada cheap to do and in a solid form. Not a lot if money to be made with out fancy gizmoes. Why sequester CO2 plants grow faster stronger amd sequester more CO2 at 700ppm then at 380ppm and can stand the oncomeing cold better. Jon Earth where more people die from cold then warm and man is so arrogant he thinks he can controle the climate. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, will jones wrote: > > Man the amount of misinformation and manipulated information is amazing in this thread. It is quite funny how you folks twist facts. > I work with a majority of the stable isotopes used in climatology (2H, 18O, 37Cl, 87Sr, 34S and quite a few others). Even though not a climatologist, this is where the money is and hence the data I use to support my work. That is, I read climatology, entemology, forestry, geologic and other papers on the use of isotopes. I also sample a broad spectrum and exploite these works for my own work. > The funny thing is that most of what each of you say is correct, but just a little twisted in the overall scheme of things. There is no doubt that anthropogenic influences have interfered with normal sequestering of CO2 while at the same time releasing a constantly increasing level of CO2 into the atmosphere. There is no doubt that one of the largest ramp up of temperatures in a very short time frame is due to man. Over the past hundred years, humans have averaged over 60 million tons of C02 released per day. Mt St Helens and Pinatubo didn't even put out 40% of this value in one time events. And we do this every day. There is no doubt that increased CO2 levels raise surface level temperatures. There still are questions on how CO2 was mediated and in what time period, back in history, but then history has not demonstrated as large a pervasive increase in CO2 in a short time frame. > We can quibble over the various orbital periods or draw the conclusion that if we are pumping this much CO2 into the atmosphere, decreasing the earth's ability to sequester the CO2, and we are on the short side of a galactic (not a sun/earth) orbit, man it is going to get hot. Or is it? Will the CO2 reach a limiting factor and actually buffer our temperature, staving off the inevitable 100K yr+ glaciation? Do differences in ice cores and sediments reflect flaws with hypothesis, different localize and/or regional climatology, different geology or a need for more data for model calibration? Guess what, it is all of the above and then some. And yes Virginia, 0.7C on a global scale is significant. 2-3C is very significant. Hedge and buy stock in air conditioning and sunblock companies. :) > Most of you are presenting some reasonable facts, but the jury is still out on the conclusions. But does it make sense to continue to emit this much CO2 and destroy the planet's ability to mediate CO2 when we can fix most of it? Much like shx*@&)! in your own stewpot and as we should, go the way of the other prior at least 3 dominant species in the history of this planet. > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17202|17201|2008-04-16 00:42:34|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - The on going story|Not shure what this is all about but when profile says occupation is creative cutting and welding I won't get into carbon footprint of steel sculpture ..... whouldn't a flower garden be more friendly. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > We burned down the forest and paved it. Now we wait for the earth to snuff us all out so in a few billion years the cycle can start all over again. Do you think anyone will remember? Or believe it could have happened before? De'juve > | 17203|16991|2008-04-16 01:54:48|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Argo - the complete story|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > From one standpoint your arguments are valid, however they do not stand up to reasonable scrutinity. Yes, unfortunately when, before or after temps increase or decrease has not been clarified. That is still an issue being researched. However, so called greenhouse gases have been consistently and associatively measured with temp changes. Perhaps they are not causative and just merely a resultant of these effects. Most studies weigh the evadence as saying CO2 rise follows temp rise not creates it. In either case, man's continued destruction of CO2 sinks and releasing of CO2 thru fossil fuel burning is demonstrating a clearly measureable effect in the short term. How? Perhaps that is good and we are delaying the end of the current interglacial period staving off the inevitable return to glaciation. Only time will tell for sure. :) Would that be bad I mean realy. Warming would turn many deserts to savanas and more evaperation and rain making more land green not brown. The equatorial rain forests had been growing to the North and South and actualy getting bigger in centural America. I've used ARCGIS to predict where to buy ocean front land for each 1' of sea level increase. Anyone want to invest while inland land is cheap? I am trying to cut a deal with Universal. :-) > At the depth of the thickness of a paper match per year it would have to be a investment for our great grand kids. > A lot of this determination will depend on where your opinion falls in the approximately 190MY galactic orbit theory (seems also to correlate with mass extinctions), the 40K-200K Milankovitch cycles (a dude waaayyyy before his time) and their interrelationships. If we assume that the current earth temperatures are due to cyclic galactic orbital effects, then why has the pattern been broken and we are at greater temps in a phenomenally shorter time frame than history illustrates? Same applies to Milankovitch cycles (jury is still out on his predictions, but I'll wager he will be vindicated). That is, in the past 150 yrs the earth has managed to exceed max avg historical temps that took several thousands of years to reach historically. Seems if we are talking about a cyclic process that is on the order of 40K - 100K+ years that is also further mediated by a larger cyclic process on 190K years, then the argument that the temp increase over the past 200yrs is due to > orbital effects alone doesn't quite make sense. Also this would not explain why the CO2 increase curve, temperature increase curve, and planetary human population growth curves are correlated. And most of this data is from direct measurement. Suuure you can find periods of drecrease and stagnation to quibble about, but the curves still go up and up and up. In 200 years that is some what true. In the longer term it only falls true for human population. The sun spot cycles as well where extreams happen is when many of these cycles aline so you get the compounded effect. > > None of this excuses us from the real issue of enery conservation and shifting to localized energy generation where homes and buildings are built to very high conservation standards with solar production of electricity taking up some of the electrical and heating load. As this technology improves it should be able to replace most if not all of the electrical needs thougout a significant portion of the States. Working to provide economic alternatives to destruction of carbon sequestering forests and plains areas would easily and more cheaply help the situation. One could go on all day of why the hell are we using 1800's technology to build, heat and cool our homes? Wind power taking up vast space for a tecnolage that is truly intermitent requiers a whole new power grid and transmision lines as well as other fueled power suplies to back them up in a sudden lull. Then there is the inpact on wild life with many court cases across the US for killing of large numbers of endangered birds. Solar is a low efficency solution and very limeted for building a industral econamy due to output to cost. What we can do is INSOLATE COMERCAL BUILDINGS. Turn waste not food into energy. Use the new generation of incondessent lights because people being people useing CFL's will be putting more Mercery into land fills then power plants. Get back to crop rotation so there is less fosil fuel used for make fertalizers and runoff causeing dead zones in the oceans. When it comes to forests in the NW there is actualy more board feet of timber growing now then when Europeans first came from state forestry reports. Anchent tec would be wood and candels or in some countries coal or peet. Then came coal in the US and then gas. Each step the efficency inproved and the footprint/energy output inproved. Any system(s) to fill the needs of the masses and industry would have to be affordable to the masses and industries (consumers pay the cost industries acrues). Be able to provide quality of life not reduce it. What is the foot print of the Live Earth concert with all the power to move feed concert goers and show. The footprint of broadcast and the TV's people watched on as well as all the parties. What are the test resalts of the Vergin Air bio-fuel flight. People are flying on private jets around the world riding in limos and surving endangerd animals at childrens parties. They are misleading us for proffet and it is not big oil it is comercal enviromentalests. If they beleaved what they where preaching they would set the example not say we are above it because we are convincing others. Is that not like a preacher that molests children but teaching morality to others so they won't so it is OK for him. Jon Not trying to afend but the analogy fits.| 17204|17201|2008-04-16 01:57:18|Aaron Williams|Re: Argo - The on going story|It would not matter much here since it started snowing again this morning. We all have to make a living. I have a small welding shop. That I hope to sell when My boat is finished. Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 8:42:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Argo - The on going story Not shure what this is all about but when profile says occupation is creative cutting and welding I won't get into carbon footprint of steel sculpture ..... whouldn't a flower garden be more friendly. Jon --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > We burned down the forest and paved it. Now we wait for the earth to snuff us all out so in a few billion years the cycle can start all over again. Do you think anyone will remember? Or believe it could have happened before? De'juve > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17205|17205|2008-04-16 02:30:36|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Urgently Needed For Procurement Scheduler & Chief Instrument Enginee|We are PT. MBP Skill Indonesia, a National Company focusing on HR. Services, principally Consulting, Contracting, Training and Administration. We are currently inviting qualified engineer for our Client to fill the position of Procurement Scheduler (2-211681) With the following Requirement - Male/ Female of 30th Years Old - Bachelor Degree (S1) in Engineering Discipline - Has at least 3rd – 5th years of Experience in Procurement & Engineering Project - Must Familiar with Primavera Software (P3. P.5) - Willing to be assigned to the remote location - Good In English oral & written Chief Instrument Engineer (MBP 2-211641) Qualifications desired: • Male / female min 30 years old • S1 Degree in Electrical/ Instrument Engineer • 5 years working experience in the field of Instrumentation engineer and Electrical design • Proven knowledge of Electrical Instrumentation equipment • Familiar with Programmable Logic Control (PLC) and Distributable Control System (DCS) and trouble shoot Commissioning • Ability to communicate in English • Willing to be assigned to the remote location • Contract for 6th months and will be extended after 6th month will depend on our Client actual needs and the work performance An attractive remuneration package commensurate with experiences and qualifications will be offered to the qualified candidate Only qualified candidate should apply, please send your applications with CV and recent photograph to resumes@...| 17206|17086|2008-04-16 04:36:48|sae140|Re: wood treatment|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Unfortunately, I think we are into the anecdotal experience part of the debate where we square off to seal or not to seal. :-) Should present a good discussion - on guard monsieur. > > brentswain38 wrote: > Sealing wood ends up letting the > moisture in thru the slightest cracks but stops evaporation from ever > drying it out, increasing the risk of dry rot. > Brent > Dunno about the *dry* rot, but my experience with sealing wood on all sides is that serious wet rot follows just as soon as some water manages to penetrate. I've been guilty of making this mistake myself with wooden window frames & sills on houses, where unpainted under surfaces had allowed the frames to survive for 40 years or more - until I came along with a paint brush and tried to do the sills a favour (!). Wet rot started within 2 or 3 years. Rot in encapsulated deck stringers on grp boats is notorious too - exactly as Brent describes - either a bolted-through deck fitting works loose, or the grp suffers a crack. Rainwater seeps in, and a couple of years down the line the wood is turned to black mushy muesli. Damned expensive to fix too. Bloke on the Coromandel site has just had to replace his wooden mast support beam. Same story: small deflection crack in grp > water entered, coudn't escape > beam rotted and failed. Colin| 17207|17207|2008-04-16 07:51:04|kelly.morrisey|Something Interesting for Members!|Dear Members Thought you might like to know about another group I found! It is packed with things you can get for FREE! Take a look: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/freebieworld/ Regards Kelly| 17208|17207|2008-04-16 08:21:37|Larry Dale|Re: Something Interesting for Members!|Okay I've had enough; when are you going to delist this person and their continual spamming of us. "kelly.morrisey" wrote: Dear Members Thought you might like to know about another group I found! It is packed with things you can get for FREE! Take a look: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/freebieworld/ Regards Kelly ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17209|17209|2008-04-16 08:34:40|Bill Jaine|Re Hand Splices|*Subject:* Your yacht is finally done! Lets set the scene first:- *One 65' custom-built motor yacht replete with 4 staterooms, state-of-the-art galley, GPS System and navigation radar, twin supercharged diesel engines, etc. * * Cost:........................................ $4,500,000.00 * *Being prepared for maiden launch. Crane transfer from quayside to water. * * ** ************************************************************ *Other costs :->* *Crane + **rigging** **+ labor engaged for 2 hours.........................................= ** $2,500.00** * *Champagne**, chocolate-covered strawberries with cream** **..................=** **$300.00* *Music dockside for 'soon-to-be-owners' and a small group of friends.... = ** $500.00* *Photographer to capture the happy moment.................................................... = $350.00* ...and then...... *Watching from quayside as a ( $55.00 ) faulty turnbuckle on the * *hoisting rig collapses & your dream boat nosedives into the harbor* * **with two corporate representatives [ one in the bridge and the other seen 'hanging' in the stern ] * *performing the handover routine just prior to inking the final paperwork...* */ /* *All expletives heard at this scene have been** **deleted. ** * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get the MapQuest Toolbar , Maps, Traffic, Directions & More! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1378 - Release Date: 4/15/2008 9:12 AM ---------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1376 - Release Date: 4/13/2008 1:45 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17210|17210|2008-04-16 09:43:44|Martin Demers|wood treatment/shellac|someone had previously mentionned shellac as a waterproofer for wood, I'd like to know how good it is compare to paint or polyurethane varnish, Is there more people who had some experience with it? Martin.| 17211|17086|2008-04-16 10:13:54|will jones|Re: wood treatment|Unfortunately on your windows you blocked the release of water by sealing the downhill exit for water leaving your uprotected parts that were infected with fungal spores to stew in water. We can now classify you as a happy fungal home developer. Shame there is no money in it unless you are growing mushrooms. This is somewhat different than sealing new wood and using it. Always leave a downhill exit for water to flow with windows. I don't even use wood around windows anymore, prefering the pvc substitutes. My second floor dormer frames rotted due to leaking wood windows. When I replaced the windows and rebuilt the framing I used the self sealing membranes they have out now. Any water finding its way behind a window will be directed to exterior flashing. Any water finding its way behind the trim will be directed to the bottom of the trim and out. Experienced the same problems with my GRP SanJuan under the cockpit and in several locker walls. Had to cut out the ply in half and dogleg in new lower halves. I sealed the new plywood with varnish before I tabbed it in with epoxy and then topcoated everything with primer and latex paint. Looks pretty. It took me a while to find out where water was entering my SJ and all of the areas that I repaired show no signs of rot and that is with several inches of standing water for a good part of the year. By the way, it is amazing how much water will enter through some #6 & #8 bolts in cockpit locker hinges. I just happened to hit one of the tops of the lockers with a water stream just right and was suprised at the water drip that ensued. I had rebedded and sealed pretty much everything else chasing the source of water after heavy rains and it turned out to be the hinges. Glad everything else needed reworked and updated so the work was not wasted. I don't think either approach has a long term advantage when immersed in water. Inevitably rot will get the wood if it stays consistently wet. And stringers are really a bad example, no prep, no protection, poor quality wood, high stress area and immersed in water a considerable amount of the time. I wouldn't even use wood in these instances, but that's not how are boats are built. sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Unfortunately, I think we are into the anecdotal experience part of the debate where we square off to seal or not to seal. :-) Should present a good discussion - on guard monsieur. > > brentswain38 wrote: > Sealing wood ends up letting the > moisture in thru the slightest cracks but stops evaporation from ever > drying it out, increasing the risk of dry rot. > Brent > Dunno about the *dry* rot, but my experience with sealing wood on all sides is that serious wet rot follows just as soon as some water manages to penetrate. I've been guilty of making this mistake myself with wooden window frames & sills on houses, where unpainted under surfaces had allowed the frames to survive for 40 years or more - until I came along with a paint brush and tried to do the sills a favour (!). Wet rot started within 2 or 3 years. Rot in encapsulated deck stringers on grp boats is notorious too - exactly as Brent describes - either a bolted-through deck fitting works loose, or the grp suffers a crack. Rainwater seeps in, and a couple of years down the line the wood is turned to black mushy muesli. Damned expensive to fix too. Bloke on the Coromandel site has just had to replace his wooden mast support beam. Same story: small deflection crack in grp > water entered, coudn't escape > beam rotted and failed. Colin Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17212|17086|2008-04-16 11:30:32|sae140|Re: wood treatment|One product of possible interest to the 'allow the wood to breath' school of thinking is Microporous Ranch Paint. I haven't a clue how it works when more than one coat is applied (I've have thought the pores would have become clogged ...), but the guys at http://www.wray-common-windmill.co.uk/restoration-of-wray-common-windmill.html seem happy enough using 3 coats over all exterior oak, some of which has been erected green and so obviously needs to breathe. Actually I didn't think oak needed to be painted - witness half-timbered buildings in Britain several hundreds of years old - but that just goes to show how little I know about these matters. Colin| 17213|17210|2008-04-16 12:19:06|Carl Anderson|Re: wood treatment/shellac|Martin, I have used shellac as the primer coat. That was at the advise of Tony Lyons the shipwright who is helping with the interior. His comment is that it is very water resistant and non-toxic as well. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Martin Demers wrote: > > > someone had previously mentionned shellac as a waterproofer for wood, > I'd like to know how > good it is compare to paint or polyurethane varnish, > Is there more people who had some experience with it? > > Martin. > > | 17214|17209|2008-04-16 12:25:46|ANDREW AIREY|Re Hand Splices|Any pics please cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17215|17209|2008-04-16 13:09:00|Carl Anderson|Re: Re Hand Splices|http://www.moonflowerofmoab.com/news.html ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > Any pics please > cheers > andy airey > | 17216|17086|2008-04-16 14:22:51|brentswain38|Re: wood treatment|four years is nothing. I'd be more interested in the 20 year outlook. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > if anyone is interested, ClassicBoat magazine (March 2008) > have just completed a four year continual wood sample exposure test > using 12 different woodfinishing products > > varnish, water based, solvent based, two pack and flexible polyurethane > i haven't read the whole article as the only material i've been using so for the last 2 months has been steel. > but their conclusion was Coelan flexible polyurethane wins overall, > although it is by far the most expensive at 58 pounds per m^3 > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: will jones > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:02:05 PM > Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > I am not sure, I just use a brand by Watco just called Danish Oil here in the States. Basically, it is just linseed oil with varnish added in order to bring it slightly above the surface (if you want to) and impart more moisture resistance. If you check the ingredients and it says linseed or tung oil and varnish or resins, it is probably similar. It is still soft, as any natural oil/wax preservative is and still transmits water vapour. An easy test of this is to take a piece of wood, sand it, treat it and then set a nice highball on the rocks on a warm humid day on the wood. If you get a waxy looking ring, I wouldn't use it for a base for paint. > > Alkyd resins are cheap, readily available and you get a really good bang for your buck in performance. > > James wrote: > Will , is your Danish oil the same as we in Scotland call Decks Oilye ( or > similar ) ? James > > On 4/11/08, will jones wrote: > > > > In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the performance being > > realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat as to any > > enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. Remove > > them from the equation and your performance will probably be the same with > > proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the surface > > that a resin can bind to. > > > > Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes added to it > > to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 or 4 or a > > week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more > > protection nor moisture resistance than raw. > > > > I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished wood, > > but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the surface > > due to the added varnish. > > > > Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and mildew/fungus > > loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. But, in > > no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a base support > > that a topcoat can bind to. > > > > With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin into the > > wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, > > waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a compatible > > base for the topcoat to bind to. > > > > edrapela@... wrote: > > There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have > > always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner (depending > > on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by raw linseed > > oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. Follow this > > with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full > > strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the desired > > level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing porous > > woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides stayed nice > > for more than 3 years even in the California sun. > > > > Cheers, > > Ed > > > > From: will jones > > Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > > > Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It > > is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg > > hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural > > oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to > > readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want > > some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up > > finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water > > resistance in wet or humid environments. > > > > Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for > > water resistance. > > > > jameshawk99 wrote: > > Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates > > deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few > > coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. > > Check it out on the net. > > > > Jim > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --------------------------------- > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > > Total Access, No Cost. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17217|17217|2008-04-16 15:14:36|kelly.morrisey|Get a Free Laptop Computer (genuine!)|[Click here] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17218|17218|2008-04-16 17:03:06|foranaft|New builder (maybe)|Hello everyone! I'm thinking over building a 36. I would like to know if there is a designed inside steering station? Also, how much did you spend (US) too get the hull/deck finished (home builders) just a EST. as im building on a budget. Can anyone sell me a pre cut set (kit) for the 36? Looking forward too hearing your thoughts. Thanks Bill| 17219|17218|2008-04-16 19:48:43|brentswain38|Re: New builder (maybe)|Yes there is a designed in , inside steering station. I consider it a high priority. Where are you? There are no precut kits available, but the loftings are as simple as I could make them. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "foranaft" wrote: > > > Hello everyone! > > > I'm thinking over building a 36. I would like to know if there > is a designed inside steering station? > > Also, how much did you spend (US) too get the hull/deck finished > (home builders) just a EST. as im building on a budget. > > Can anyone sell me a pre cut set (kit) for the 36? > > Looking forward too hearing your thoughts. > > Thanks > > Bill > | 17220|17220|2008-04-16 20:20:57|Michael Casling|Punt or Jon boat|I have a need for a 10 foot punt or Jon boat similar to the unit made by Alumacraft. Nanaimo area is best for me. My rubber ducky is not durable enough to be dragged about at Silva Bay, especially at low tide over the rocks and other debri. Can be ugly but must be seaworthy. Aluminum or fiberglass would be okay, weight to about 90 pounds. Flat or flatish bottom preferred. Transom for a 4hp motor also preferred. You can send a message direct to kaipuke@... if you have or know of a boat. Michael| 17221|17218|2008-04-17 01:11:42|Aaron Williams|Re: New builder (maybe)|Bill what is your location if someone were interested in working with you? ----- Original Message ---- From: foranaft To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:03:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] New builder (maybe) Hello everyone! I'm thinking over building a 36. I would like to know if there is a designed inside steering station? Also, how much did you spend (US) too get the hull/deck finished (home builders) just a EST. as im building on a budget. Can anyone sell me a pre cut set (kit) for the 36? Looking forward too hearing your thoughts. Thanks Bill ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17222|17086|2008-04-17 20:37:56|Gary H. Lucas|Re: testing eye splices in rigging wire|Carl, Nice job! It would be interesting to test the pre-formed eyes that the power companies use on the same kind of wire. I've installed quite lot of those and have pulled them with about 3500 lbs of load on 3/8" cable, but I've never pulled one to breaking. They are very fast to install, under a minute. You can even install them on the middle of a cable, which we often did when we didn't want to cut the cable short for the future. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Anderson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] testing eye splices in rigging wire > Well I had two of my handmade eye splices in 1X7 pull tested. > The results were amazing in neither eye splice broke. > The wire itself failed at 10% above the rating it has for breaking. > So I'm convinced that a hand spliced eye in 1X7 will work out just fine. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > | 17223|17086|2008-04-18 04:06:01|edward_stoneuk|Re: testing eye splices in rigging wire|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Carl, > Nice job! It would be interesting to test the pre-formed eyes that the > power companies use on the same kind of wire. Hi Gary, What do they look like? Do you have a web reference that we can see them on? Regards, Ted| 17224|17224|2008-04-18 06:51:25|ahmed montaser|Searching for Happiness ?|Happiness is a common goal that everyone strives to attain. Philosophers, intellectuals, doctors and artists alike have all strived in search of the causes of happiness and ways to escape anxiety. The reality is, however, that the proposed solutions achieve only partial or superficial happiness. They are more or less like drugs which only provide temporary relief; when their effect wares off, anxieties return two fold. The following words invite you to ultimate happiness and will lead you to true success. But before you begin reading, I hope that you to take a moment to try to open your heart and mind - as the intelligent one is he who searches for the truth no matter where it lies. An undeniable reality is that permanent happiness cannot be achieved except by believing in God - The Creator - and following His guidance. Since it is He who created mankind, He is the one who knows what pleases and benefits them, just as he knows what saddens and harms them. A number of psychologists have affirmed that only a religious person lives with true content and serenity. So if believing in God leads to ultimate happiness, then how can this be achieved? There are numerous religions and a variety of creeds. However, their critical differences in core issues make it impossible for all of them to be correct. So which is the correct religion? What is the correct creed that God requires us to believe in and in the end pleases Him? And which one of these creeds guarantees us happiness in this life and in the hereafter? Before answering these questions, a criterion must first be established to be used as a basis for correctly determining the true religion. I firmly believe that all sensible people will agree that a religion is not deemed correct simply due to the fact that one was raised in that religion, had parents that adhered to it, or lived in a society that practiced it. Rather a religion's accuracy and authenticity are based upon substantial evidence and firm intellectual proofs. Intellect, the distinguishing factor between mankind and animals, must be applied when studying the issue of religion, which is undeniably the most important and gravest of all matters. A short journey into the world of religions and sifting through various creeds could prove to be a good method in arriving at the desired conclusion. In order to save you the time and effort, I say with full conviction and confidence that no matter how much you investigate this issue, you will only arrive at one reality: that the true and correct religion is Islam and that true happiness and content lies within it. Before you hastily rebut this statement and stop reading, please realize that completing the rest would not harm you at all, and it may in fact benefit you. Also, remember that you have an intellect by which you can distinguish things and determine truth from falsehood. Why Islam? This is an important question, indicating that the questioner is mature and enlightened. In response I say: Islam is a religion that includes a number of merits and characteristics that are absent from other religions. These characteristics, alone, serve as convincing evidence that Islam is the true religion of God. You can determine the authenticity of this statement by contemplating them. Islam's many merits and characteristics make it impossible to elaborate on all of them. However, some of the most important can be summarized as follows: 1. Amongst the greatest merits of Islam is that it fulfills the spiritual aspects of the human being and enables those who embrace it to have an ongoing connection with God. This makes it possible for them to be at ease spiritually. It shields them from chaos, being lost or feeling (spiritually) empty, and protects from mental instability. 2. Another of IslamÂ’s merits is that it coincides totally with common sense. All of the Islamic legislation and its rulings are acceptable intellectually and are never contradictory. One man who embraced Islam was asked why he did so and replied, "Islam never ordered me to do anything that I later wished wasn't obligated, and it never forbade me from anything that I later wished wasnÂ’t forbidden." Much of what is readily accepted in other religions causes great confusion. This confusion makes it difficult to believe many of the fundamental tenets/doctrines that these religions are based upon. On the other hand, we find that Islam respects the intellect, prohibits ignorance, and condemns blind following. 3. Islam is an all-inclusive way of life attending to both spiritual and physical needs. Practicing Islam does not mean that one has to be secluded or that he is prohibited from the finer things in life. Rather, according to Islam, a person can be religious and still enjoy a normal life - attaining prestigious ranks/positions and achieving the highest academic degrees. 4. Among the merits of Islam is that it is a comprehensive religion. Every aspect of a personÂ’s life is managed by Islam. There is not a problem except that a solution for it lies in Islam, which makes it possible to embrace and practice in every time and place. How can this not be the case in such a well organized religion that has guidelines and positive instruction for every aspect of life including: conflict resolution, buying and selling, social and marital relations, greetings, public etiquettes, and even how a person eats, sleeps and dresses. These practices have not been addressed generally, but rather in precise detail, causing the mind to wonder in amazement. Know that Islam even provides direction on how to wear and remove footwear. It encourages people to use their right hand when eating, drinking, shaking hands, and when giving and receiving items. As for disliked affairs such as using the bathroom, the left hand is to be used. Islam also has wonderful instructions regarding going to sleep and waking up. When two Muslims meet, Islam directs them on how they should greet each other; a rider should initiate greeting the pedestrian, the youth should initiate greeting the elderly, and a small group should initiate greeting a larger group. These are but a few of IslamÂ’s many comprehensive guidelines for all aspects of life. 5. Another of IslamÂ’s merits is that it establishes good for mankind in all its regulations and safeguards them from evil. It is man himself who benefits from these regulations. Islam's prohibition of alcohol and drugs for example is only because of the great harm they cause to a person's physical and mental health. You can witness the state of a drunken man, no longer human except in appearance. A lot of murders, disputes, traffic accidents and rapes would not have taken place were it not for consuming these mind-altering products. Islam's prohibition of premarital sex relieves societies of destructive diseases (such as AIDS and other STDs), immoral behavior, and the existence of a generation of illegitimate children. This generation is often deprived of a motherÂ’s love and a fatherÂ’s upbringing which can lead them to become burdensome on society. Islam prohibits women from displaying themselves publicly. This is because Islam considers women to be valued, preserved pearls; not some cheap merchandise to be displayed for all to see. It does so to protect them from the wolves of mankind - those who are only concerned with satisfying their lusts, even if it is at the cost of a womanÂ’s honor, nobility, status, and purity. On the other hand, Islam permits all harmless and beneficial drinks. It also permits married couples to enjoy one another within a happy home. In summary, Islam has not eliminated freedoms and desires. Rather, it regulates them for the benefit of mankind and the society at large. 6. A radiant aspect of Islam is that it pays a great deal of attention to values, character, and praiseworthy manners, while prohibiting mankind from oppression, transgression and bad character. Islam is a religion of love, unity and mercy. It defines an individualÂ’s relationship with his parents, relatives, neighbors, friends and all people. Islam embeds the best of manners in those who embrace it and prevents them from living selfishly. It encourages its followers to help others and take others' feelings into consideration - especially the poor, orphans, elderly and widows. They all have rights in Islam that must not be taken lightly by Muslims. Muslims shouldnÂ’t feel like they are bestowing favors upon others when giving them their due rights, rather these rights are obligations upon Muslims. It is considered to be a great sin in Islam for one to go to sleep with a full stomach knowing that his neighbor is hungry. Islam even prohibits two people from whispering to each other in the presence of a third, taking his feelings into consideration. Islam goes even further than that, obligating kind treatment to animals and prohibiting harming them. More specifically, Islam prohibits slaughtering an animal while another watches, or sharpening a knife while it is watching, so that it is not tormented along with being slaughtered. Truthfulness, trustworthiness, bravery, generosity, humility, abiding by promises, visiting the sick, attending funerals, being dutiful to parents, visiting relatives and neighbors, and striving to help others are all etiquettes that are encouraged by Islam. On the other hand, Islam strictly prohibits oppression, lying, conceitedness, envy, and insulting or betraying others. It is impermissible in Islam to speak ill of a person in his absence, even if what is being said is true. Islam encourages people to moderate in spending, being neither excessive nor misers. During times when a lot of societies complain about cold heartedness, materialism, selfishness and so on, we find that Islam has proven remedies for all of these problems. This summarized introduction should make it clear that Islam is a logical religion that can be easily understood by all people. The doors to Islam are wide open and do not shut for anyone looking to enter. Understanding all of Islam's teachings in a short article is impossible. However, briefly discussing some of its fundamental tenets should assist in further clarifying the religion for those who are interested. All of IslamÂ’s regulations and teachings are important, but some have precedence over others. There are six essential articles of faith that one must believe in, and five pillars that one's faith must be built upon. As for the six articles that must be believed in: 1. Believing in Allah (God) alone, associating no partners unto Him in worship. This is done by believing that Allah alone is the Creator of this universe and everything that is within it, and that it is He alone who disposes its affairs as He sees fit. Consequently, worship can only be offered to Him alone. Worship is implementing the teachings of Islam and its legislation while believing that all other religions are false. 2. Believing in the angels. Angels were created by Allah but we can not see them. They worship Allah and never disobey Him. Allah orders them to carry out many of the universe's affairs. The angel Gabriel, for example, (peace be upon him) delivers AllahÂ’s revelation to the messengers. Another is Mikayeel (peace be upon him), who is entrusted with the affairs of rain. Still there are other angels responsible for writing the deeds of mankind - deeds which they will be held accountable for on the Day of Resurrection. It is essential to believe that all of the angels act solely upon the order of Allah and do only what He wills. 3. Believing in the Books of Revelation. This means to believe that Allah revealed books to His servants comprising of His words. These books contain bliss for mankind by clarifying what Allah is pleased with as well as what He dislikes. The Angel charged with delivering revelation to the Prophets is Gabriel (peace be upon him) - the greatest of angels. A prophet then conveys the revelation to the rest of mankind. Allah has revealed many books, amongst them: The Torah, revealed to Moses (peace be upon him), The Psalms, revealed to David (peace be upon him), The Gospel, sent down to Jesus (peace be upon him) and the Quran, which was revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him). One must believe that the Quran has abrogated all books prior to it, meaning that - after the Prophet (Muhammad) was sent - it is the only book that can be acted upon, especially since the Quran combines all the merits of past books and further supplements them. Know that the Quran is from the greatest evidences that this religion is the truth revealed by Allah (God) the Most High. The Quran was revealed over 1400 years ago. Since then till this day, no contradictions or mistakes have been found in the Quran, not even in a single word. Many of the scientific discoveries of modern times were mentioned in the Quran. Since that time until today, nothing has been added to or subtracted from the Quran, while previous revelations have been tampered with and altered. It is for this reason that you can pick up a copy of the Quran in the far East and find it to be exactly the same as one you pick up in the far West. If you were to come across a copy of the Quran that is hundreds of years old, you would also find that it is exactly the same as the one being printed currently - you wouldnÂ’t be able to find even one letter that is different. This is because of AllahÂ’s protection of this Book, the Book of the religion that sealed all other religions. Speaking about the Quran would take a lot of time. However, it is enough for you to know that there is nothing like it whatsoever; not by way of (literary) style, its effect on people, nor its information about the unseen. 4. Believing in the Prophets. This is done by believing that Allah has chosen the best of mankind to be recipients of His revelation and ordered them to convey His religion to the people. There are numerous Prophets, among them are: Noah, Abraham, David, Solomon, Lot, Joseph, Moses and others (peace be upon all of them). Also from them is Jesus. It is imperative to believe that he is among the best of Prophets and to love and respect him. Whoever despises him or denies his prophethood is not Muslim. Likewise it is compulsory to believe that Allah created him from a mother only, with no father, just as Allah created Adam with neither a mother nor a father. Having mentioned this, we now know that Jesus is a noble messenger and not God, nor is he a son of God. He foretold the coming of a prophet to come after him; Muhammad ibn (the son of) Abdullah, the last of the prophets. Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace be upon him) was sent 1400 years ago. It is compulsory for everyone who comes after him until the Day of Judgment to believe in him and his message, and obey his orders and prohibitions. All those who studied the biography of this messenger have agreed that he is a great personality who has been bestowed with the best of manners and most noble etiquettes. He had characteristics which were not present in anyone before him and will not be present in anyone after him. Anything that you read about him, no matter how small it is, confirms what I am saying. Allah has also granted him proofs and evidences that establish the authenticity of his prophethood, thus having doubt in this fact is intellectually impossible. Having been given such proofs and evidences of his prophethood, whoever denies his truthfulness, would make it impossible for that individual to establish the truthfulness of any other prophet. 5. The Last Day. This is fulfilled firmly believing that after this life of ours is over, there is another more complete life. In it, there are immense rewards and magnificent luxuries, as well as punishment. Luxury is in Heaven and punishment in Hell. So whoever is righteous and believes in the religion of Islam enters Heaven, a place that contains untold pleasure and unimagined bliss. All the luxuries on earth cannot be compared to it at all. Whoever enters Heaven will continue to live in such luxuries for eternity as death does not exist therein. As for those who act upon evil and do not believe in Islam, they would end up in Hell, which contains fires and punishment that can not be imagined, all of the fires of earth and forms of punishment cannot be compared to the punishment of the hellfire at all. The existence of punishment and reward after this life is an issue that is intellectually acknowledged, because it is impossible for this world to exist and then just diminish into nothingness. This is trifling about, and our Lord, the Creator, does not engage in such activities. 6. Believing in Divine Decree. This is to believe that everything that happens in this world is due to AllahÂ’s knowledge and will. Nothing except what He wills takes place, and what He does not will, does not take place. Allah has written everything in a great book (The Preserved Tablet). Believing in divine decree also includes believing that Allah created everything. As for the five pillars that must be practiced: 1. Uttering a phrase that is the key to entering into Islam. It is a contract between a servant and his Lord, signifying that he is upon this religion: “Ashhadu an la ilaha ila Allah, wa ashadu ana Muhammad ‘abduhu wa rasuluhu.” “I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger.” This testimony signifies the acceptance, admission, and adherence to the fact that worship must be offered to Allah alone. It also includes the acceptance of Islam as the only correct religion, Allah as the only true deity deserving worship, and that all other deities and religions are false. The second part of the testimony entails an affirmation that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and that he is to be obeyed and believed in all that he says. 2. The Prayer. It is a combination of statements, actions and invocations carried out in a specific manner. It is performed five times daily and doesnÂ’t take much time at all. In fact, a prayer may not take more than five minutes. Prayer is the link between a servant and his Lord. It enables a Muslim to be confident, mentally and spiritually at rest, calm and untroubled. 3. The Zakaat. A wealthy Muslim must give a small portion of his money to the poor, 2.5% of his wealth to be exact. Even though it is a small amount, it enables the Muslim community to be conciliated and merciful amongst each other. It propagates brotherhood, love and concern amongst Muslims. And again, Zakaat is only to be given out by the wealthy, not the poor. 4. Fasting. What is meant by fasting is that a person withholds from eating, drinking and sexual relations during the month of Ramadan [which is the 9th month of the lunar calendar] between dawn and sunset. The sick, travelers, and those with valid excuses are pardoned from fasting. They are permitted to eat and drink but must make up the missed days once they become able. Fasting has many health, personal, and social benefits. Amongst them are: giving the digestive system a break, allowing Muslims to grow spiritually and practice good mannerisms. It enables Muslims to be conscious of their needy brothers and sisters, those who are unable to find enough food to satisfy their needs throughout the year. Consequently, the Muslims humble themselves and strive to help them. 5. Hajj. It is a form of worship that must be performed only once in a lifetime, in Makkah. Those who are physically incapable or not financially able to perform it are pardoned from doing so. Hajj contains many magnificent benefits; the gathering of Muslims from all around the globe in one place getting to know each other and displaying love for one another, not to mention what a Muslim achieves by way of spiritual purification and character refinement due to experiencing such a spiritual environment in the shade of Hajj. Hopefully what has preceded is sufficient in clarifying - in a summarized fashion - some of the merits of Islam. I invite all who have not yet entered into the fold of Islam to listen to a sincere invitation from one who only wants good for you: save yourself before death takes you by surprise, and thus you die upon other than Islam - what a great loss that is! Do you know what dying upon other than Islam means? It means that you would enter the Hellfire, abiding therein for eternity. This is what Allah has warned all those who die without embracing Islam. So why would you take a chance with an issue as grave as this? IÂ’m going to ask you a question that I want you to answer honestly: What would you lose if you embraced Islam? If you embrace Islam, you can continue living your normal ordinary life, but in a more spiritual, organized, and pleasant fashionÂ…and after death, tremendous delight and eternal pleasure await you. If you have reached a level of conviction, believing that Islam is the true religion, but fear that embracing Islam would prevent you from enjoying pleasures that you cannot live without, then compare these temporary pleasures with eternal pleasure. Which of the two should be given preference? Furthermore, you can embrace Islam and then gradually try to reduce such pleasures. And if you were to honestly invoke Allah, He would surely aid you in leaving them. In any case, embracing Islam and having shortcomings is better than not embracing Islam at all. If the barrier between you and Islam is due to having a weak personality, the inability to make such a big decision, or because you fear that people may talk about you or mock you, know that these are just unrealistic thoughts. You would not be the first person to embrace Islam; a lot of others have made the decision to do so. They did not lose anything, their lives were not ruined, nor do they have any regrets. Furthermore, does it make sense that you sacrifice your own well being and happiness in this life and in the hereafter just because you fear mockery or admonishment? This affair is worthy of your time. Contemplate upon it deeply. My last words: Do not lose yourself! I ask Allah to bless you with true guidance. One who wishes only the best for you, ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ| 17225|17224|2008-04-18 08:48:19|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|THIS IS WAY OFF TOPIC FOR THE FORUM AND HAS NO PLACE HERE! PLEASE BLOCK FURTHER ATTEMPTS AT POSTING FROM THIS SOURCE. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ahmed montaser Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 6:51 AM To: sad@... Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ? Happiness is a common goal that everyone strives to attain. Philosophers, intellectuals, doctors and artists alike have all strived in search of the causes of happiness and ways to escape anxiety. The reality is, however, that the proposed solutions achieve only partial or superficial happiness. They are more or less like drugs which only provide temporary relief; when their effect wares off, anxieties return two fold. The following words invite you to ultimate happiness and will lead you to true success. But before you begin reading, I hope that you to take a moment to try to open your heart and mind - as the intelligent one is he who searches for the truth no matter where it lies. An undeniable reality is that permanent happiness cannot be achieved except by believing in God - The Creator - and following His guidance. Since it is He who created mankind, He is the one who knows what pleases and benefits them, just as he knows what saddens and harms them. A number of psychologists have affirmed that only a religious person lives with true content and serenity. So if believing in God leads to ultimate happiness, then how can this be achieved? There are numerous religions and a variety of creeds. However, their critical differences in core issues make it impossible for all of them to be correct. So which is the correct religion? What is the correct creed that God requires us to believe in and in the end pleases Him? And which one of these creeds guarantees us happiness in this life and in the hereafter? Before answering these questions, a criterion must first be established to be used as a basis for correctly determining the true religion. I firmly believe that all sensible people will agree that a religion is not deemed correct simply due to the fact that one was raised in that religion, had parents that adhered to it, or lived in a society that practiced it. Rather a religion's accuracy and authenticity are based upon substantial evidence and firm intellectual proofs. Intellect, the distinguishing factor between mankind and animals, must be applied when studying the issue of religion, which is undeniably the most important and gravest of all matters. A short journey into the world of religions and sifting through various creeds could prove to be a good method in arriving at the desired conclusion. In order to save you the time and effort, I say with full conviction and confidence that no matter how much you investigate this issue, you will only arrive at one reality: that the true and correct religion is Islam and that true happiness and content lies within it. Before you hastily rebut this statement and stop reading, please realize that completing the rest would not harm you at all, and it may in fact benefit you. Also, remember that you have an intellect by which you can distinguish things and determine truth from falsehood. Why Islam? This is an important question, indicating that the questioner is mature and enlightened. In response I say: Islam is a religion that includes a number of merits and characteristics that are absent from other religions. These characteristics, alone, serve as convincing evidence that Islam is the true religion of God. You can determine the authenticity of this statement by contemplating them. Islam's many merits and characteristics make it impossible to elaborate on all of them. However, some of the most important can be summarized as follows: 1. Amongst the greatest merits of Islam is that it fulfills the spiritual aspects of the human being and enables those who embrace it to have an ongoing connection with God. This makes it possible for them to be at ease spiritually. It shields them from chaos, being lost or feeling (spiritually) empty, and protects from mental instability. 2. Another of Islam�s merits is that it coincides totally with common sense. All of the Islamic legislation and its rulings are acceptable intellectually and are never contradictory. One man who embraced Islam was asked why he did so and replied, "Islam never ordered me to do anything that I later wished wasn't obligated, and it never forbade me from anything that I later wished wasn�t forbidden." Much of what is readily accepted in other religions causes great confusion. This confusion makes it difficult to believe many of the fundamental tenets/doctrines that these religions are based upon. On the other hand, we find that Islam respects the intellect, prohibits ignorance, and condemns blind following. 3. Islam is an all-inclusive way of life attending to both spiritual and physical needs. Practicing Islam does not mean that one has to be secluded or that he is prohibited from the finer things in life. Rather, according to Islam, a person can be religious and still enjoy a normal life - attaining prestigious ranks/positions and achieving the highest academic degrees. 4. Among the merits of Islam is that it is a comprehensive religion. Every aspect of a person�s life is managed by Islam. There is not a problem except that a solution for it lies in Islam, which makes it possible to embrace and practice in every time and place. How can this not be the case in such a well organized religion that has guidelines and positive instruction for every aspect of life including: conflict resolution, buying and selling, social and marital relations, greetings, public etiquettes, and even how a person eats, sleeps and dresses. These practices have not been addressed generally, but rather in precise detail, causing the mind to wonder in amazement. Know that Islam even provides direction on how to wear and remove footwear. It encourages people to use their right hand when eating, drinking, shaking hands, and when giving and receiving items. As for disliked affairs such as using the bathroom, the left hand is to be used. Islam also has wonderful instructions regarding going to sleep and waking up. When two Muslims meet, Islam directs them on how they should greet each other; a rider should initiate greeting the pedestrian, the youth should initiate greeting the elderly, and a small group should initiate greeting a larger group. These are but a few of Islam�s many comprehensive guidelines for all aspects of life. 5. Another of Islam�s merits is that it establishes good for mankind in all its regulations and safeguards them from evil. It is man himself who benefits from these regulations. Islam's prohibition of alcohol and drugs for example is only because of the great harm they cause to a person's physical and mental health. You can witness the state of a drunken man, no longer human except in appearance. A lot of murders, disputes, traffic accidents and rapes would not have taken place were it not for consuming these mind-altering products. Islam's prohibition of premarital sex relieves societies of destructive diseases (such as AIDS and other STDs), immoral behavior, and the existence of a generation of illegitimate children. This generation is often deprived of a mother�s love and a father�s upbringing which can lead them to become burdensome on society. Islam prohibits women from displaying themselves publicly. This is because Islam considers women to be valued, preserved pearls; not some cheap merchandise to be displayed for all to see. It does so to protect them from the wolves of mankind - those who are only concerned with satisfying their lusts, even if it is at the cost of a woman�s honor, nobility, status, and purity. On the other hand, Islam permits all harmless and beneficial drinks. It also permits married couples to enjoy one another within a happy home. In summary, Islam has not eliminated freedoms and desires. Rather, it regulates them for the benefit of mankind and the society at large. 6. A radiant aspect of Islam is that it pays a great deal of attention to values, character, and praiseworthy manners, while prohibiting mankind from oppression, transgression and bad character. Islam is a religion of love, unity and mercy. It defines an individual�s relationship with his parents, relatives, neighbors, friends and all people. Islam embeds the best of manners in those who embrace it and prevents them from living selfishly. It encourages its followers to help others and take others' feelings into consideration - especially the poor, orphans, elderly and widows. They all have rights in Islam that must not be taken lightly by Muslims. Muslims shouldn�t feel like they are bestowing favors upon others when giving them their due rights, rather these rights are obligations upon Muslims. It is considered to be a great sin in Islam for one to go to sleep with a full stomach knowing that his neighbor is hungry. Islam even prohibits two people from whispering to each other in the presence of a third, taking his feelings into consideration. Islam goes even further than that, obligating kind treatment to animals and prohibiting harming them. More specifically, Islam prohibits slaughtering an animal while another watches, or sharpening a knife while it is watching, so that it is not tormented along with being slaughtered. Truthfulness, trustworthiness, bravery, generosity, humility, abiding by promises, visiting the sick, attending funerals, being dutiful to parents, visiting relatives and neighbors, and striving to help others are all etiquettes that are encouraged by Islam. On the other hand, Islam strictly prohibits oppression, lying, conceitedness, envy, and insulting or betraying others. It is impermissible in Islam to speak ill of a person in his absence, even if what is being said is true. Islam encourages people to moderate in spending, being neither excessive nor misers. During times when a lot of societies complain about cold heartedness, materialism, selfishness and so on, we find that Islam has proven remedies for all of these problems. This summarized introduction should make it clear that Islam is a logical religion that can be easily understood by all people. The doors to Islam are wide open and do not shut for anyone looking to enter. Understanding all of Islam's teachings in a short article is impossible. However, briefly discussing some of its fundamental tenets should assist in further clarifying the religion for those who are interested. All of Islam�s regulations and teachings are important, but some have precedence over others. There are six essential articles of faith that one must believe in, and five pillars that one's faith must be built upon. As for the six articles that must be believed in: 1. Believing in Allah (God) alone, associating no partners unto Him in worship. This is done by believing that Allah alone is the Creator of this universe and everything that is within it, and that it is He alone who disposes its affairs as He sees fit. Consequently, worship can only be offered to Him alone. Worship is implementing the teachings of Islam and its legislation while believing that all other religions are false. 2. Believing in the angels. Angels were created by Allah but we can not see them. They worship Allah and never disobey Him. Allah orders them to carry out many of the universe's affairs. The angel Gabriel, for example, (peace be upon him) delivers Allah�s revelation to the messengers. Another is Mikayeel (peace be upon him), who is entrusted with the affairs of rain. Still there are other angels responsible for writing the deeds of mankind - deeds which they will be held accountable for on the Day of Resurrection. It is essential to believe that all of the angels act solely upon the order of Allah and do only what He wills. 3. Believing in the Books of Revelation. This means to believe that Allah revealed books to His servants comprising of His words. These books contain bliss for mankind by clarifying what Allah is pleased with as well as what He dislikes. The Angel charged with delivering revelation to the Prophets is Gabriel (peace be upon him) - the greatest of angels. A prophet then conveys the revelation to the rest of mankind. Allah has revealed many books, amongst them: The Torah, revealed to Moses (peace be upon him), The Psalms, revealed to David (peace be upon him), The Gospel, sent down to Jesus (peace be upon him) and the Quran, which was revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him). One must believe that the Quran has abrogated all books prior to it, meaning that - after the Prophet (Muhammad) was sent - it is the only book that can be acted upon, especially since the Quran combines all the merits of past books and further supplements them. Know that the Quran is from the greatest evidences that this religion is the truth revealed by Allah (God) the Most High. The Quran was revealed over 1400 years ago. Since then till this day, no contradictions or mistakes have been found in the Quran, not even in a single word. Many of the scientific discoveries of modern times were mentioned in the Quran. Since that time until today, nothing has been added to or subtracted from the Quran, while previous revelations have been tampered with and altered. It is for this reason that you can pick up a copy of the Quran in the far East and find it to be exactly the same as one you pick up in the far West. If you were to come across a copy of the Quran that is hundreds of years old, you would also find that it is exactly the same as the one being printed currently - you wouldn�t be able to find even one letter that is different. This is because of Allah�s protection of this Book, the Book of the religion that sealed all other religions. Speaking about the Quran would take a lot of time. However, it is enough for you to know that there is nothing like it whatsoever; not by way of (literary) style, its effect on people, nor its information about the unseen. 4. Believing in the Prophets. This is done by believing that Allah has chosen the best of mankind to be recipients of His revelation and ordered them to convey His religion to the people. There are numerous Prophets, among them are: Noah, Abraham, David, Solomon, Lot, Joseph, Moses and others (peace be upon all of them). Also from them is Jesus. It is imperative to believe that he is among the best of Prophets and to love and respect him. Whoever despises him or denies his prophethood is not Muslim. Likewise it is compulsory to believe that Allah created him from a mother only, with no father, just as Allah created Adam with neither a mother nor a father. Having mentioned this, we now know that Jesus is a noble messenger and not God, nor is he a son of God. He foretold the coming of a prophet to come after him; Muhammad ibn (the son of) Abdullah, the last of the prophets. Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace be upon him) was sent 1400 years ago. It is compulsory for everyone who comes after him until the Day of Judgment to believe in him and his message, and obey his orders and prohibitions. All those who studied the biography of this messenger have agreed that he is a great personality who has been bestowed with the best of manners and most noble etiquettes. He had characteristics which were not present in anyone before him and will not be present in anyone after him. Anything that you read about him, no matter how small it is, confirms what I am saying. Allah has also granted him proofs and evidences that establish the authenticity of his prophethood, thus having doubt in this fact is intellectually impossible. Having been given such proofs and evidences of his prophethood, whoever denies his truthfulness, would make it impossible for that individual to establish the truthfulness of any other prophet. 5. The Last Day. This is fulfilled firmly believing that after this life of ours is over, there is another more complete life. In it, there are immense rewards and magnificent luxuries, as well as punishment. Luxury is in Heaven and punishment in Hell. So whoever is righteous and believes in the religion of Islam enters Heaven, a place that contains untold pleasure and unimagined bliss. All the luxuries on earth cannot be compared to it at all. Whoever enters Heaven will continue to live in such luxuries for eternity as death does not exist therein. As for those who act upon evil and do not believe in Islam, they would end up in Hell, which contains fires and punishment that can not be imagined, all of the fires of earth and forms of punishment cannot be compared to the punishment of the hellfire at all. The existence of punishment and reward after this life is an issue that is intellectually acknowledged, because it is impossible for this world to exist and then just diminish into nothingness. This is trifling about, and our Lord, the Creator, does not engage in such activities. 6. Believing in Divine Decree. This is to believe that everything that happens in this world is due to Allah�s knowledge and will. Nothing except what He wills takes place, and what He does not will, does not take place. Allah has written everything in a great book (The Preserved Tablet). Believing in divine decree also includes believing that Allah created everything. As for the five pillars that must be practiced: 1. Uttering a phrase that is the key to entering into Islam. It is a contract between a servant and his Lord, signifying that he is upon this religion: �Ashhadu an la ilaha ila Allah, wa ashadu ana Muhammad �abduhu wa rasuluhu.� �I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger.� This testimony signifies the acceptance, admission, and adherence to the fact that worship must be offered to Allah alone. It also includes the acceptance of Islam as the only correct religion, Allah as the only true deity deserving worship, and that all other deities and religions are false. The second part of the testimony entails an affirmation that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and that he is to be obeyed and believed in all that he says. 2. The Prayer. It is a combination of statements, actions and invocations carried out in a specific manner. It is performed five times daily and doesn�t take much time at all. In fact, a prayer may not take more than five minutes. Prayer is the link between a servant and his Lord. It enables a Muslim to be confident, mentally and spiritually at rest, calm and untroubled. 3. The Zakaat. A wealthy Muslim must give a small portion of his money to the poor, 2.5% of his wealth to be exact. Even though it is a small amount, it enables the Muslim community to be conciliated and merciful amongst each other. It propagates brotherhood, love and concern amongst Muslims. And again, Zakaat is only to be given out by the wealthy, not the poor. 4. Fasting. What is meant by fasting is that a person withholds from eating, drinking and sexual relations during the month of Ramadan [which is the 9th month of the lunar calendar] between dawn and sunset. The sick, travelers, and those with valid excuses are pardoned from fasting. They are permitted to eat and drink but must make up the missed days once they become able. Fasting has many health, personal, and social benefits. Amongst them are: giving the digestive system a break, allowing Muslims to grow spiritually and practice good mannerisms. It enables Muslims to be conscious of their needy brothers and sisters, those who are unable to find enough food to satisfy their needs throughout the year. Consequently, the Muslims humble themselves and strive to help them. 5. Hajj. It is a form of worship that must be performed only once in a lifetime, in Makkah. Those who are physically incapable or not financially able to perform it are pardoned from doing so. Hajj contains many magnificent benefits; the gathering of Muslims from all around the globe in one place getting to know each other and displaying love for one another, not to mention what a Muslim achieves by way of spiritual purification and character refinement due to experiencing such a spiritual environment in the shade of Hajj. Hopefully what has preceded is sufficient in clarifying - in a summarized fashion - some of the merits of Islam. I invite all who have not yet entered into the fold of Islam to listen to a sincere invitation from one who only wants good for you: save yourself before death takes you by surprise, and thus you die upon other than Islam - what a great loss that is! Do you know what dying upon other than Islam means? It means that you would enter the Hellfire, abiding therein for eternity. This is what Allah has warned all those who die without embracing Islam. So why would you take a chance with an issue as grave as this? I�m going to ask you a question that I want you to answer honestly: What would you lose if you embraced Islam? If you embrace Islam, you can continue living your normal ordinary life, but in a more spiritual, organized, and pleasant fashion�and after death, tremendous delight and eternal pleasure await you. If you have reached a level of conviction, believing that Islam is the true religion, but fear that embracing Islam would prevent you from enjoying pleasures that you cannot live without, then compare these temporary pleasures with eternal pleasure. Which of the two should be given preference? Furthermore, you can embrace Islam and then gradually try to reduce such pleasures. And if you were to honestly invoke Allah, He would surely aid you in leaving them. In any case, embracing Islam and having shortcomings is better than not embracing Islam at all. If the barrier between you and Islam is due to having a weak personality, the inability to make such a big decision, or because you fear that people may talk about you or mock you, know that these are just unrealistic thoughts. You would not be the first person to embrace Islam; a lot of others have made the decision to do so. They did not lose anything, their lives were not ruined, nor do they have any regrets. Furthermore, does it make sense that you sacrifice your own well being and happiness in this life and in the hereafter just because you fear mockery or admonishment? This affair is worthy of your time. Contemplate upon it deeply. My last words: Do not lose yourself! I ask Allah to bless you with true guidance. One who wishes only the best for you, ____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. HYPERLINK "http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ"http://mobile.-y ahoo.com/-;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR-8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA-cJ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.1/1385 - Release Date: 4/18/2008 9:30 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.1/1385 - Release Date: 4/18/2008 9:30 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17226|17224|2008-04-18 12:27:45|sae140|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > THIS IS WAY OFF TOPIC FOR THE FORUM AND HAS NO PLACE HERE! > > PLEASE BLOCK FURTHER ATTEMPTS AT POSTING FROM THIS SOURCE. > > Knut > Well done, Knut. You complain about this spam, then repeat it word-for-word, so everyone gets a double dose ... Colin| 17227|17224|2008-04-18 13:04:24|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|Sorry about that Colin. Haste is no good. However, I do not think that anybody NOT interested would be reading all that anyway! rgds Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 12:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ? --- In HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > THIS IS WAY OFF TOPIC FOR THE FORUM AND HAS NO PLACE HERE! > > PLEASE BLOCK FURTHER ATTEMPTS AT POSTING FROM THIS SOURCE. > > Knut > Well done, Knut. You complain about this spam, then repeat it word-for-word, so everyone gets a double dose ... Colin No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.1/1385 - Release Date: 4/18/2008 9:30 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.1/1385 - Release Date: 4/18/2008 9:30 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17228|17086|2008-04-18 17:22:40|brentswain38|Re: testing eye splices in rigging wire|A friend tried those. Going down the Oregon coast they began to slip. He made frantic dashes around the boat trying to cable clamp them before his mast went overboard. They may be OK for a steady pull, but a cyclic loading pulls them a few thou with every lurch, until they slip free. Steer clear of them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Carl, > Nice job! It would be interesting to test the pre-formed eyes that the > power companies use on the same kind of wire. I've installed quite lot of > those and have pulled them with about 3500 lbs of load on 3/8" cable, but > I've never pulled one to breaking. They are very fast to install, under a > minute. You can even install them on the middle of a cable, which we often > did when we didn't want to cut the cable short for the future. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Anderson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:03 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] testing eye splices in rigging wire > > > > Well I had two of my handmade eye splices in 1X7 pull tested. > > The results were amazing in neither eye splice broke. > > The wire itself failed at 10% above the rating it has for breaking. > > So I'm convinced that a hand spliced eye in 1X7 will work out just fine. > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > > > > | 17229|17224|2008-04-18 23:57:31|Abraham George|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|I subscribed to this group on the idea tha ti gets more insights and real life experiences of people out there on the aspects of boatbuilding and sailing in general. Alas what do I get ?? ---------------------------------------------------------- This is my 2 cents on the search for happiness. The proponents of Islam or muslim or whatever they call themselves look back on their own history and see that its completely bathed in the blood of so many humans right from the start of the so called islam tribe. For furthur proof all people should watch "FITNA" to see and understand the real thing about the ISLAM. --- On Fri, 4/18/08, Knut F Garshol wrote: > From: Knut F Garshol > Subject: RE: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, sad@... > Date: Friday, April 18, 2008, 7:40 AM > THIS IS WAY OFF TOPIC FOR THE FORUM AND HAS NO PLACE HERE! > > > > PLEASE BLOCK FURTHER ATTEMPTS AT POSTING FROM THIS SOURCE. > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of ahmed montaser > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 6:51 AM > To: sad@... > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ? > > > > Happiness is a common goal that everyone strives to > attain. Philosophers, intellectuals, doctors and > artists alike have all strived in search of the causes > of happiness and ways to escape anxiety. > > The reality is, however, that the proposed solutions > achieve only partial or superficial happiness. They > are more or less like drugs which only provide > temporary relief; when their effect wares off, > anxieties return two fold. > > The following words invite you to ultimate happiness > and will lead you to true success. But before you > begin reading, I hope that you to take a moment to try > to open your heart and mind - as the intelligent one > is he who searches for the truth no matter where it > lies. > > An undeniable reality is that permanent happiness > cannot be achieved except by believing in God - The > Creator - and following His guidance. Since it is He > who created mankind, He is the one who knows what > pleases and benefits them, just as he knows what > saddens and harms them. A number of psychologists have > affirmed that only a religious person lives with true > content and serenity. So if believing in God leads to > ultimate happiness, then how can this be achieved? > > There are numerous religions and a variety of creeds. > However, their critical differences in core issues > make it impossible for all of them to be correct. So > which is the correct religion? What is the correct > creed that God requires us to believe in and in the > end pleases Him? And which one of these creeds > guarantees us happiness in this life and in the > hereafter? > > Before answering these questions, a criterion must > first be established to be used as a basis for > correctly determining the true religion. I firmly > believe that all sensible people will agree that a > religion is not deemed correct simply due to the fact > that one was raised in that religion, had parents that > adhered to it, or lived in a society that practiced > it. Rather a religion's accuracy and authenticity are > based upon substantial evidence and firm intellectual > proofs. Intellect, the distinguishing factor between > mankind and animals, must be applied when studying the > issue of religion, which is undeniably the most > important and gravest of all matters. > A short journey into the world of religions and > sifting through various creeds could prove to be a > good method in arriving at the desired conclusion. In > order to save you the time and effort, I say with full > conviction and confidence that no matter how much you > investigate this issue, you will only arrive at one > reality: that the true and correct religion is Islam > and that true happiness and content lies within it. > > Before you hastily rebut this statement and stop > reading, please realize that completing the rest would > not harm you at all, and it may in fact benefit you. > Also, remember that you have an intellect by which you > can distinguish things and determine truth from > falsehood. > > Why Islam? > > This is an important question, indicating that the > questioner is mature and enlightened. In response I > say: > > Islam is a religion that includes a number of merits > and characteristics that are absent from other > religions. These characteristics, alone, serve as > convincing evidence that Islam is the true religion of > God. You can determine the authenticity of this > statement by contemplating them. > > Islam's many merits and characteristics make it > impossible to elaborate on all of them. However, some > of the most important can be summarized as follows: > > 1. Amongst the greatest merits of Islam is that it > fulfills the spiritual aspects of the human being and > enables those who embrace it to have an ongoing > connection with God. This makes it possible for them > to be at ease spiritually. It shields them from chaos, > being lost or feeling (spiritually) empty, and > protects from mental instability. > > 2. Another of Islam’s merits is that it coincides > totally with common sense. All of the Islamic > legislation and its rulings are acceptable > intellectually and are never contradictory. One man > who embraced Islam was asked why he did so and > replied, "Islam never ordered me to do anything that I > later wished wasn't obligated, and it never forbade me > from anything that I later wished wasn’t forbidden." > > Much of what is readily accepted in other religions > causes great confusion. This confusion makes it > difficult to believe many of the fundamental > tenets/doctrines that these religions are based upon. > On the other hand, we find that Islam respects the > intellect, prohibits ignorance, and condemns blind > following. > > 3. Islam is an all-inclusive way of life attending to > both spiritual and physical needs. Practicing Islam > does not mean that one has to be secluded or that he > is prohibited from the finer things in life. Rather, > according to Islam, a person can be religious and > still enjoy a normal life - attaining prestigious > ranks/positions and achieving the highest academic > degrees. > > 4. Among the merits of Islam is that it is a > comprehensive religion. Every aspect of a person’s > life is managed by Islam. There is not a problem > except that a solution for it lies in Islam, which > makes it possible to embrace and practice in every > time and place. How can this not be the case in such a > well organized religion that has guidelines and > positive instruction for every aspect of life > including: conflict resolution, buying and selling, > social and marital relations, greetings, public > etiquettes, and even how a person eats, sleeps and > dresses. These practices have not been addressed > generally, but rather in precise detail, causing the > mind to wonder in amazement. Know that Islam even > provides direction on how to wear and remove footwear. > It encourages people to use their right hand when > eating, drinking, shaking hands, and when giving and > receiving items. As for disliked affairs such as using > the bathroom, the left hand is to be used. > Islam also has wonderful instructions regarding going > to sleep and waking up. When two Muslims meet, Islam > directs them on how they should greet each other; a > rider should initiate greeting the pedestrian, the > youth should initiate greeting the elderly, and a > small group should initiate greeting a larger group. > These are but a few of Islam’s many comprehensive > guidelines for all aspects of life. > > 5. Another of Islam’s merits is that it establishes > good for mankind in all its regulations and safeguards > them from evil. It is man himself who benefits from > these regulations. Islam's prohibition of alcohol and > drugs for example is only because of the great harm > they cause to a person's physical and mental health. > You can witness the state of a drunken man, no longer > human except in appearance. A lot of murders, > disputes, traffic accidents and rapes would not have > taken place were it not for consuming these > mind-altering products. > Islam's prohibition of premarital sex relieves > societies of destructive diseases (such as AIDS and > other STDs), immoral behavior, and the existence of a > generation of illegitimate children. This generation > is often deprived of a mother’s love and a father’s > upbringing which can lead them to become burdensome on > society. Islam prohibits women from displaying > themselves publicly. This is because Islam considers > women to be valued, preserved pearls; not some cheap > merchandise to be displayed for all to see. It does so > to protect them from the wolves of mankind - those who > are only concerned with satisfying their lusts, even > if it is at the cost of a woman’s honor, nobility, > status, and purity. > On the other hand, Islam permits all harmless and > beneficial drinks. It also permits married couples to > enjoy one another within a happy home. > In summary, Islam has not eliminated freedoms and > desires. Rather, it regulates them for the benefit of > mankind and the society at large. > > 6. A radiant aspect of Islam is that it pays a great > deal of attention to values, character, and > praiseworthy manners, while prohibiting mankind from > oppression, transgression and bad character. Islam is > a religion of love, unity and mercy. It defines an > individual’s relationship with his parents, relatives, > neighbors, friends and all people. Islam embeds the > best of manners in those who embrace it and prevents > them from living selfishly. It encourages its > followers to help others and take others' feelings > into consideration - especially the poor, orphans, > elderly and widows. They all have rights in Islam that > must not be taken lightly by Muslims. Muslims > shouldn’t feel like they are bestowing favors upon > others when giving them their due rights, rather these > rights are obligations upon Muslims. It is considered > to be a great sin in Islam for one to go to sleep with > a full stomach knowing that his neighbor is hungry. > Islam even prohibits two people from whispering to > each other in the presence of a third, taking his > feelings into consideration. Islam goes even further > than that, obligating kind treatment to animals and > prohibiting harming them. More specifically, Islam > prohibits slaughtering an animal while another > watches, or sharpening a knife while it is watching, > so that it is not tormented along with being > slaughtered. > > Truthfulness, trustworthiness, bravery, generosity, > humility, abiding by promises, visiting the sick, > attending funerals, being dutiful to parents, visiting > relatives and neighbors, and striving to help others > are all etiquettes that are encouraged by Islam. > On the other hand, Islam strictly prohibits > oppression, lying, conceitedness, envy, and insulting > or betraying others. It is impermissible in Islam to > speak ill of a person in his absence, even if what is > being said is true. Islam encourages people to > moderate in spending, being neither excessive nor > misers. > During times when a lot of societies complain about > cold heartedness, materialism, selfishness and so on, > we find that Islam has proven remedies for all of > these problems. > > This summarized introduction should make it clear that > Islam is a logical religion that can be easily > understood by all people. The doors to Islam are wide > open and do not shut for anyone looking to enter. > > Understanding all of Islam's teachings in a short > article is impossible. However, briefly discussing > some of its fundamental tenets should assist in > further clarifying the religion for those who are > interested. > > All of Islam’s regulations and teachings are > important, but some have precedence over others. There > are six essential articles of faith that one must > believe in, and five pillars that one's faith must be > built upon. > > As for the six articles that must be believed in: > > 1. Believing in Allah (God) alone, associating no > partners unto Him in worship. This is done by > believing that Allah alone is the Creator of this > universe and everything that is within it, and that it > is He alone who disposes its affairs as He sees fit. > Consequently, worship can only be offered to Him > alone. Worship is implementing the teachings of Islam > and its legislation while believing that all other > religions are false. > > 2. Believing in the angels. Angels were created by > Allah but we can not see them. They worship Allah and > never disobey Him. Allah orders them to carry out many > of the universe's affairs. The angel Gabriel, for > example, (peace be upon him) delivers Allah’s > revelation to the messengers. Another is Mikayeel > (peace be upon him), who is entrusted with the affairs > of rain. Still there are other angels responsible for > writing the deeds of mankind - deeds which they will > be held accountable for on the Day of Resurrection. It > is essential to believe that all of the angels act > solely upon the order of Allah and do only what He > wills. > > 3. Believing in the Books of Revelation. This means to > believe that Allah revealed books to His servants > comprising of His words. These books contain bliss for > mankind by clarifying what Allah is pleased with as > well as what He dislikes. The Angel charged with > delivering revelation to the Prophets is Gabriel > (peace be upon him) - the greatest of angels. A > prophet then conveys the revelation to the rest of > mankind. > Allah has revealed many books, amongst them: The > Torah, revealed to Moses (peace be upon him), The > Psalms, revealed to David (peace be upon him), The > Gospel, sent down to Jesus (peace be upon him) and the > Quran, which was revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon > him). > One must believe that the Quran has abrogated all > books prior to it, meaning that - after the Prophet > (Muhammad) was sent - it is the only book that can be > acted upon, especially since the Quran combines all > the merits of past books and further supplements them. > > Know that the Quran is from the greatest evidences > that this religion is the truth revealed by Allah > (God) the Most High. The Quran was revealed over 1400 > years ago. Since then till this day, no contradictions > or mistakes have been found in the Quran, not even in > a single word. Many of the scientific discoveries of > modern times were mentioned in the Quran. Since that > time until today, nothing has been added to or > subtracted from the Quran, while previous revelations > have been tampered with and altered. > It is for this reason that you can pick up a copy of > the Quran in the far East and find it to be exactly > the same as one you pick up in the far West. If you > were to come across a copy of the Quran that is > hundreds of years old, you would also find that it is > exactly the same as the one being printed currently - > you wouldn’t be able to find even one letter that is > different. This is because of Allah’s protection of > this Book, the Book of the religion that sealed all > other religions. > Speaking about the Quran would take a lot of time. > However, it is enough for you to know that there is > nothing like it whatsoever; not by way of (literary) > style, its effect on people, nor its information about > the unseen. > 4. Believing in the Prophets. This is done by > believing that Allah has chosen the best of mankind to > be recipients of His revelation and ordered them to > convey His religion to the people. There are numerous > Prophets, among them are: Noah, Abraham, David, > Solomon, Lot, Joseph, Moses and others (peace be upon > all of them). Also from them is Jesus. It is > imperative to believe that he is among the best of > Prophets and to love and respect him. Whoever despises > him or denies his prophethood is not Muslim. Likewise > it is compulsory to believe that Allah created him > from a mother only, with no father, just as Allah > created Adam with neither a mother nor a father. > Having mentioned this, we now know that Jesus is a > noble messenger and not God, nor is he a son of God. > He foretold the coming of a prophet to come after him; > Muhammad ibn (the son of) Abdullah, the last of the > prophets. > Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace be upon him) was sent > 1400 years ago. It is compulsory for everyone who > comes after him until the Day of Judgment to believe > in him and his message, and obey his orders and > prohibitions. > All those who studied the biography of this messenger > have agreed that he is a great personality who has > been bestowed with the best of manners and most noble > etiquettes. He had characteristics which were not > present in anyone before him and will not be present > in anyone after him. Anything that you read about him, > no matter how small it is, confirms what I am saying. > Allah has also granted him proofs and evidences that > establish the authenticity of his prophethood, thus > having doubt in this fact is intellectually > impossible. Having been given such proofs and > evidences of his prophethood, whoever denies his > truthfulness, would make it impossible for that > individual to establish the truthfulness of any other > prophet. > > 5. The Last Day. This is fulfilled firmly believing > that after this life of ours is over, there is another > more complete life. In it, there are immense rewards > and magnificent luxuries, as well as punishment. > Luxury is in Heaven and punishment in Hell. So whoever > is righteous and believes in the religion of Islam > enters Heaven, a place that contains untold pleasure > and unimagined bliss. All the luxuries on earth cannot > be compared to it at all. Whoever enters Heaven will > continue to live in such luxuries for eternity as > death does not exist therein. > As for those who act upon evil and do not believe in > Islam, they would end up in Hell, which contains fires > and punishment that can not be imagined, all of the > fires of earth and forms of punishment cannot be > compared to the punishment of the hellfire at all. > The existence of punishment and reward after this life > is an issue that is intellectually acknowledged, > because it is impossible for this world to exist and > then just diminish into nothingness. This is trifling > about, and our Lord, the Creator, does not engage in > such activities. > > 6. Believing in Divine Decree. This is to believe that > everything that happens in this world is due to > Allah’s knowledge and will. Nothing except what He > wills takes place, and what He does not will, does not > take place. Allah has written everything in a great > book (The Preserved Tablet). Believing in divine > decree also includes believing that Allah created > everything. > > As for the five pillars that must be practiced: > > 1. Uttering a phrase that is the key to entering into > Islam. It is a contract between a servant and his > Lord, signifying that he is upon this religion: > “Ashhadu an la ilaha ila Allah, wa ashadu ana Muhammad > ‘abduhu wa rasuluhu.” > “I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of > worship except Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant > and Messenger.” > This testimony signifies the acceptance, admission, > and adherence to the fact that worship must be offered > to Allah alone. It also includes the acceptance of > Islam as the only correct religion, Allah as the only > true deity deserving worship, and that all other > deities and religions are false. The second part of > the testimony entails an affirmation that Muhammad is > the Messenger of Allah and that he is to be obeyed and > believed in all that he says. > > 2. The Prayer. It is a combination of statements, > actions and invocations carried out in a specific > manner. It is performed five times daily and doesn’t > take much time at all. In fact, a prayer may not take > more than five minutes. Prayer is the link between a > servant and his Lord. It enables a Muslim to be > confident, mentally and spiritually at rest, calm and > untroubled. > > 3. The Zakaat. A wealthy Muslim must give a small > portion of his money to the poor, 2.5% of his wealth > to be exact. Even though it is a small amount, it > enables the Muslim community to be conciliated and > merciful amongst each other. It propagates > brotherhood, love and concern amongst Muslims. And > again, Zakaat is only to be given out by the wealthy, > not the poor. > > 4. Fasting. What is meant by fasting is that a person > withholds from eating, drinking and sexual relations > during the month of Ramadan [which is the 9th month of > the lunar calendar] between dawn and sunset. The sick, > travelers, and those with valid excuses are pardoned > from fasting. They are permitted to eat and drink but > must make up the missed days once they become able. > Fasting has many health, personal, and social > benefits. Amongst them are: giving the digestive > system a break, allowing Muslims to grow spiritually > and practice good mannerisms. It enables Muslims to be > conscious of their needy brothers and sisters, those > who are unable to find enough food to satisfy their > needs throughout the year. Consequently, the Muslims > humble themselves and strive to help them. > > 5. Hajj. It is a form of worship that must be > performed only once in a lifetime, in Makkah. Those > who are physically incapable or not financially able > to perform it are pardoned from doing so. > Hajj contains many magnificent benefits; the gathering > of Muslims from all around the globe in one place > getting to know each other and displaying love for one > another, not to mention what a Muslim achieves by way > of spiritual purification and character refinement due > to experiencing such a spiritual environment in the > shade of Hajj. > > Hopefully what has preceded is sufficient in > clarifying - in a summarized fashion - some of the > merits of Islam. I invite all who have not yet entered > into the fold of Islam to listen to a sincere > invitation from one who only wants good for you: save > yourself before death takes you by surprise, and thus > you die upon other than Islam - what a great loss that > is! > > Do you know what dying upon other than Islam means? It > means that you would enter the Hellfire, abiding > therein for eternity. This is what Allah has warned > all those who die without embracing Islam. So why > would you take a chance with an issue as grave as > this? > > I’m going to ask you a question that I want you to > answer honestly: > What would you lose if you embraced Islam? > > If you embrace Islam, you can continue living your > normal ordinary life, but in a more spiritual, > organized, and pleasant fashion…and after death, > tremendous delight and eternal pleasure await you. > > If you have reached a level of conviction, believing > that Islam is the true religion, but fear that > embracing Islam would prevent you from enjoying > pleasures that you cannot live without, then compare > these temporary pleasures with eternal pleasure. Which > of the two should be given preference? > > Furthermore, you can embrace Islam and then gradually > try to reduce such pleasures. And if you were to > honestly invoke Allah, He would surely aid you in > leaving them. In any case, embracing Islam and having > shortcomings is better than not embracing Islam at > all. > > If the barrier between you and Islam is due to having > a weak personality, the inability to make such a big > decision, or because you fear that people may talk > about you or mock you, know that these are just > unrealistic thoughts. You would not be the first > person to embrace Islam; a lot of others have made the > decision to do so. They did not lose anything, their > lives were not ruined, nor do they have any regrets. > Furthermore, does it make sense that you sacrifice > your own well being and happiness in this life and in > the hereafter just because you fear mockery or > admonishment? > > This affair is worthy of your time. Contemplate upon > it deeply. > > My last words: Do not lose yourself! I ask Allah to > bless you with true guidance. > > One who wishes only the best for you, > > ____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. HYPERLINK > "http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ"http://mobile.-y > ahoo.com/-;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR-8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA-cJ > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.1/1385 - Release > Date: 4/18/2008 > 9:30 AM > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.1/1385 - Release > Date: 4/18/2008 > 9:30 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ | 17230|17224|2008-04-19 01:53:39|Pradyumn kapoor|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|don't send me electures Knut F Garshol wrote: THIS IS WAY OFF TOPIC FOR THE FORUM AND HAS NO PLACE HERE! PLEASE BLOCK FURTHER ATTEMPTS AT POSTING FROM THIS SOURCE. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ahmed montaser Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 6:51 AM To: sad@... Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ? Happiness is a common goal that everyone strives to attain. Philosophers, intellectuals, doctors and artists alike have all strived in search of the causes of happiness and ways to escape anxiety. The reality is, however, that the proposed solutions achieve only partial or superficial happiness. They are more or less like drugs which only provide temporary relief; when their effect wares off, anxieties return two fold. The following words invite you to ultimate happiness and will lead you to true success. But before you begin reading, I hope that you to take a moment to try to open your heart and mind - as the intelligent one is he who searches for the truth no matter where it lies. An undeniable reality is that permanent happiness cannot be achieved except by believing in God - The Creator - and following His guidance. Since it is He who created mankind, He is the one who knows what pleases and benefits them, just as he knows what saddens and harms them. A number of psychologists have affirmed that only a religious person lives with true content and serenity. So if believing in God leads to ultimate happiness, then how can this be achieved? There are numerous religions and a variety of creeds. However, their critical differences in core issues make it impossible for all of them to be correct. So which is the correct religion? What is the correct creed that God requires us to believe in and in the end pleases Him? And which one of these creeds guarantees us happiness in this life and in the hereafter? Before answering these questions, a criterion must first be established to be used as a basis for correctly determining the true religion. I firmly believe that all sensible people will agree that a religion is not deemed correct simply due to the fact that one was raised in that religion, had parents that adhered to it, or lived in a society that practiced it. Rather a religion's accuracy and authenticity are based upon substantial evidence and firm intellectual proofs. Intellect, the distinguishing factor between mankind and animals, must be applied when studying the issue of religion, which is undeniably the most important and gravest of all matters. A short journey into the world of religions and sifting through various creeds could prove to be a good method in arriving at the desired conclusion. In order to save you the time and effort, I say with full conviction and confidence that no matter how much you investigate this issue, you will only arrive at one reality: that the true and correct religion is Islam and that true happiness and content lies within it. Before you hastily rebut this statement and stop reading, please realize that completing the rest would not harm you at all, and it may in fact benefit you. Also, remember that you have an intellect by which you can distinguish things and determine truth from falsehood. Why Islam? This is an important question, indicating that the questioner is mature and enlightened. In response I say: Islam is a religion that includes a number of merits and characteristics that are absent from other religions. These characteristics, alone, serve as convincing evidence that Islam is the true religion of God. You can determine the authenticity of this statement by contemplating them. Islam's many merits and characteristics make it impossible to elaborate on all of them. However, some of the most important can be summarized as follows: 1. Amongst the greatest merits of Islam is that it fulfills the spiritual aspects of the human being and enables those who embrace it to have an ongoing connection with God. This makes it possible for them to be at ease spiritually. It shields them from chaos, being lost or feeling (spiritually) empty, and protects from mental instability. 2. Another of IslamÂ’s merits is that it coincides totally with common sense. All of the Islamic legislation and its rulings are acceptable intellectually and are never contradictory. One man who embraced Islam was asked why he did so and replied, "Islam never ordered me to do anything that I later wished wasn't obligated, and it never forbade me from anything that I later wished wasnÂ’t forbidden." Much of what is readily accepted in other religions causes great confusion. This confusion makes it difficult to believe many of the fundamental tenets/doctrines that these religions are based upon. On the other hand, we find that Islam respects the intellect, prohibits ignorance, and condemns blind following. 3. Islam is an all-inclusive way of life attending to both spiritual and physical needs. Practicing Islam does not mean that one has to be secluded or that he is prohibited from the finer things in life. Rather, according to Islam, a person can be religious and still enjoy a normal life - attaining prestigious ranks/positions and achieving the highest academic degrees. 4. Among the merits of Islam is that it is a comprehensive religion. Every aspect of a personÂ’s life is managed by Islam. There is not a problem except that a solution for it lies in Islam, which makes it possible to embrace and practice in every time and place. How can this not be the case in such a well organized religion that has guidelines and positive instruction for every aspect of life including: conflict resolution, buying and selling, social and marital relations, greetings, public etiquettes, and even how a person eats, sleeps and dresses. These practices have not been addressed generally, but rather in precise detail, causing the mind to wonder in amazement. Know that Islam even provides direction on how to wear and remove footwear. It encourages people to use their right hand when eating, drinking, shaking hands, and when giving and receiving items. As for disliked affairs such as using the bathroom, the left hand is to be used. Islam also has wonderful instructions regarding going to sleep and waking up. When two Muslims meet, Islam directs them on how they should greet each other; a rider should initiate greeting the pedestrian, the youth should initiate greeting the elderly, and a small group should initiate greeting a larger group. These are but a few of IslamÂ’s many comprehensive guidelines for all aspects of life. 5. Another of IslamÂ’s merits is that it establishes good for mankind in all its regulations and safeguards them from evil. It is man himself who benefits from these regulations. Islam's prohibition of alcohol and drugs for example is only because of the great harm they cause to a person's physical and mental health. You can witness the state of a drunken man, no longer human except in appearance. A lot of murders, disputes, traffic accidents and rapes would not have taken place were it not for consuming these mind-altering products. Islam's prohibition of premarital sex relieves societies of destructive diseases (such as AIDS and other STDs), immoral behavior, and the existence of a generation of illegitimate children. This generation is often deprived of a motherÂ’s love and a fatherÂ’s upbringing which can lead them to become burdensome on society. Islam prohibits women from displaying themselves publicly. This is because Islam considers women to be valued, preserved pearls; not some cheap merchandise to be displayed for all to see. It does so to protect them from the wolves of mankind - those who are only concerned with satisfying their lusts, even if it is at the cost of a womanÂ’s honor, nobility, status, and purity. On the other hand, Islam permits all harmless and beneficial drinks. It also permits married couples to enjoy one another within a happy home. In summary, Islam has not eliminated freedoms and desires. Rather, it regulates them for the benefit of mankind and the society at large. 6. A radiant aspect of Islam is that it pays a great deal of attention to values, character, and praiseworthy manners, while prohibiting mankind from oppression, transgression and bad character. Islam is a religion of love, unity and mercy. It defines an individualÂ’s relationship with his parents, relatives, neighbors, friends and all people. Islam embeds the best of manners in those who embrace it and prevents them from living selfishly. It encourages its followers to help others and take others' feelings into consideration - especially the poor, orphans, elderly and widows. They all have rights in Islam that must not be taken lightly by Muslims. Muslims shouldnÂ’t feel like they are bestowing favors upon others when giving them their due rights, rather these rights are obligations upon Muslims. It is considered to be a great sin in Islam for one to go to sleep with a full stomach knowing that his neighbor is hungry. Islam even prohibits two people from whispering to each other in the presence of a third, taking his feelings into consideration. Islam goes even further than that, obligating kind treatment to animals and prohibiting harming them. More specifically, Islam prohibits slaughtering an animal while another watches, or sharpening a knife while it is watching, so that it is not tormented along with being slaughtered. Truthfulness, trustworthiness, bravery, generosity, humility, abiding by promises, visiting the sick, attending funerals, being dutiful to parents, visiting relatives and neighbors, and striving to help others are all etiquettes that are encouraged by Islam. On the other hand, Islam strictly prohibits oppression, lying, conceitedness, envy, and insulting or betraying others. It is impermissible in Islam to speak ill of a person in his absence, even if what is being said is true. Islam encourages people to moderate in spending, being neither excessive nor misers. During times when a lot of societies complain about cold heartedness, materialism, selfishness and so on, we find that Islam has proven remedies for all of these problems. This summarized introduction should make it clear that Islam is a logical religion that can be easily understood by all people. The doors to Islam are wide open and do not shut for anyone looking to enter. Understanding all of Islam's teachings in a short article is impossible. However, briefly discussing some of its fundamental tenets should assist in further clarifying the religion for those who are interested. All of IslamÂ’s regulations and teachings are important, but some have precedence over others. There are six essential articles of faith that one must believe in, and five pillars that one's faith must be built upon. As for the six articles that must be believed in: 1. Believing in Allah (God) alone, associating no partners unto Him in worship. This is done by believing that Allah alone is the Creator of this universe and everything that is within it, and that it is He alone who disposes its affairs as He sees fit. Consequently, worship can only be offered to Him alone. Worship is implementing the teachings of Islam and its legislation while believing that all other religions are false. 2. Believing in the angels. Angels were created by Allah but we can not see them. They worship Allah and never disobey Him. Allah orders them to carry out many of the universe's affairs. The angel Gabriel, for example, (peace be upon him) delivers AllahÂ’s revelation to the messengers. Another is Mikayeel (peace be upon him), who is entrusted with the affairs of rain. Still there are other angels responsible for writing the deeds of mankind - deeds which they will be held accountable for on the Day of Resurrection. It is essential to believe that all of the angels act solely upon the order of Allah and do only what He wills. 3. Believing in the Books of Revelation. This means to believe that Allah revealed books to His servants comprising of His words. These books contain bliss for mankind by clarifying what Allah is pleased with as well as what He dislikes. The Angel charged with delivering revelation to the Prophets is Gabriel (peace be upon him) - the greatest of angels. A prophet then conveys the revelation to the rest of mankind. Allah has revealed many books, amongst them: The Torah, revealed to Moses (peace be upon him), The Psalms, revealed to David (peace be upon him), The Gospel, sent down to Jesus (peace be upon him) and the Quran, which was revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him). One must believe that the Quran has abrogated all books prior to it, meaning that - after the Prophet (Muhammad) was sent - it is the only book that can be acted upon, especially since the Quran combines all the merits of past books and further supplements them. Know that the Quran is from the greatest evidences that this religion is the truth revealed by Allah (God) the Most High. The Quran was revealed over 1400 years ago. Since then till this day, no contradictions or mistakes have been found in the Quran, not even in a single word. Many of the scientific discoveries of modern times were mentioned in the Quran. Since that time until today, nothing has been added to or subtracted from the Quran, while previous revelations have been tampered with and altered. It is for this reason that you can pick up a copy of the Quran in the far East and find it to be exactly the same as one you pick up in the far West. If you were to come across a copy of the Quran that is hundreds of years old, you would also find that it is exactly the same as the one being printed currently - you wouldnÂ’t be able to find even one letter that is different. This is because of AllahÂ’s protection of this Book, the Book of the religion that sealed all other religions. Speaking about the Quran would take a lot of time. However, it is enough for you to know that there is nothing like it whatsoever; not by way of (literary) style, its effect on people, nor its information about the unseen. 4. Believing in the Prophets. This is done by believing that Allah has chosen the best of mankind to be recipients of His revelation and ordered them to convey His religion to the people. There are numerous Prophets, among them are: Noah, Abraham, David, Solomon, Lot, Joseph, Moses and others (peace be upon all of them). Also from them is Jesus. It is imperative to believe that he is among the best of Prophets and to love and respect him. Whoever despises him or denies his prophethood is not Muslim. Likewise it is compulsory to believe that Allah created him from a mother only, with no father, just as Allah created Adam with neither a mother nor a father. Having mentioned this, we now know that Jesus is a noble messenger and not God, nor is he a son of God. He foretold the coming of a prophet to come after him; Muhammad ibn (the son of) Abdullah, the last of the prophets. Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace be upon him) was sent 1400 years ago. It is compulsory for everyone who comes after him until the Day of Judgment to believe in him and his message, and obey his orders and prohibitions. All those who studied the biography of this messenger have agreed that he is a great personality who has been bestowed with the best of manners and most noble etiquettes. He had characteristics which were not present in anyone before him and will not be present in anyone after him. Anything that you read about him, no matter how small it is, confirms what I am saying. Allah has also granted him proofs and evidences that establish the authenticity of his prophethood, thus having doubt in this fact is intellectually impossible. Having been given such proofs and evidences of his prophethood, whoever denies his truthfulness, would make it impossible for that individual to establish the truthfulness of any other prophet. 5. The Last Day. This is fulfilled firmly believing that after this life of ours is over, there is another more complete life. In it, there are immense rewards and magnificent luxuries, as well as punishment. Luxury is in Heaven and punishment in Hell. So whoever is righteous and believes in the religion of Islam enters Heaven, a place that contains untold pleasure and unimagined bliss. All the luxuries on earth cannot be compared to it at all. Whoever enters Heaven will continue to live in such luxuries for eternity as death does not exist therein. As for those who act upon evil and do not believe in Islam, they would end up in Hell, which contains fires and punishment that can not be imagined, all of the fires of earth and forms of punishment cannot be compared to the punishment of the hellfire at all. The existence of punishment and reward after this life is an issue that is intellectually acknowledged, because it is impossible for this world to exist and then just diminish into nothingness. This is trifling about, and our Lord, the Creator, does not engage in such activities. 6. Believing in Divine Decree. This is to believe that everything that happens in this world is due to AllahÂ’s knowledge and will. Nothing except what He wills takes place, and what He does not will, does not take place. Allah has written everything in a great book (The Preserved Tablet). Believing in divine decree also includes believing that Allah created everything. As for the five pillars that must be practiced: 1. Uttering a phrase that is the key to entering into Islam. It is a contract between a servant and his Lord, signifying that he is upon this religion: “Ashhadu an la ilaha ila Allah, wa ashadu ana Muhammad ‘abduhu wa rasuluhu.” “I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger.” This testimony signifies the acceptance, admission, and adherence to the fact that worship must be offered to Allah alone. It also includes the acceptance of Islam as the only correct religion, Allah as the only true deity deserving worship, and that all other deities and religions are false. The second part of the testimony entails an affirmation that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and that he is to be obeyed and believed in all that he says. 2. The Prayer. It is a combination of statements, actions and invocations carried out in a specific manner. It is performed five times daily and doesnÂ’t take much time at all. In fact, a prayer may not take more than five minutes. Prayer is the link between a servant and his Lord. It enables a Muslim to be confident, mentally and spiritually at rest, calm and untroubled. 3. The Zakaat. A wealthy Muslim must give a small portion of his money to the poor, 2.5% of his wealth to be exact. Even though it is a small amount, it enables the Muslim community to be conciliated and merciful amongst each other. It propagates brotherhood, love and concern amongst Muslims. And again, Zakaat is only to be given out by the wealthy, not the poor. 4. Fasting. What is meant by fasting is that a person withholds from eating, drinking and sexual relations during the month of Ramadan [which is the 9th month of the lunar calendar] between dawn and sunset. The sick, travelers, and those with valid excuses are pardoned from fasting. They are permitted to eat and drink but must make up the missed days once they become able. Fasting has many health, personal, and social benefits. Amongst them are: giving the digestive system a break, allowing Muslims to grow spiritually and practice good mannerisms. It enables Muslims to be conscious of their needy brothers and sisters, those who are unable to find enough food to satisfy their needs throughout the year. Consequently, the Muslims humble themselves and strive to help them. 5. Hajj. It is a form of worship that must be performed only once in a lifetime, in Makkah. Those who are physically incapable or not financially able to perform it are pardoned from doing so. Hajj contains many magnificent benefits; the gathering of Muslims from all around the globe in one place getting to know each other and displaying love for one another, not to mention what a Muslim achieves by way of spiritual purification and character refinement due === message truncated === --------------------------------- Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17231|17224|2008-04-19 02:24:42|ohmy.mygosh|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|I assume Alex set this group up and he has been obvious only by his absents lately. Maybe it's time some one with an on going interest took over. There are a lot of off topic links in the "links" section that can only be there with the approval of the moderater. Anyone putting up their hand. I'm not, but I agree,I don't need all the 'extra', shall we call it spam, that comes my way. Ohmy. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Pradyumn kapoor wrote: > > don't send me electures > > > Knut F Garshol wrote: > THIS IS WAY OFF TOPIC FOR THE FORUM AND HAS NO PLACE HERE! > > > > PLEASE BLOCK FURTHER ATTEMPTS AT POSTING FROM THIS SOURCE. > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of ahmed montaser > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 6:51 AM > To: sad@... > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ? > > > > Happiness is a common goal that everyone strives to > attain. Philosophers, intellectuals, doctors and > artists alike have all strived in search of the causes > of happiness and ways to escape anxiety. > > The reality is, however, that the proposed solutions > achieve only partial or superficial happiness. They > are more or less like drugs which only provide > temporary relief; when their effect wares off, > anxieties return two fold. > > The following words invite you to ultimate happiness > and will lead you to true success. But before you > begin reading, I hope that you to take a moment to try > to open your heart and mind - as the intelligent one > is he who searches for the truth no matter where it > lies. > > An undeniable reality is that permanent happiness > cannot be achieved except by believing in God - The > Creator - and following His guidance. Since it is He > who created mankind, He is the one who knows what > pleases and benefits them, just as he knows what > saddens and harms them. A number of psychologists have > affirmed that only a religious person lives with true > content and serenity. So if believing in God leads to > ultimate happiness, then how can this be achieved? > > There are numerous religions and a variety of creeds. > However, their critical differences in core issues > make it impossible for all of them to be correct. So > which is the correct religion? What is the correct > creed that God requires us to believe in and in the > end pleases Him? And which one of these creeds > guarantees us happiness in this life and in the > hereafter? > > Before answering these questions, a criterion must > first be established to be used as a basis for > correctly determining the true religion. I firmly > believe that all sensible people will agree that a > religion is not deemed correct simply due to the fact > that one was raised in that religion, had parents that > adhered to it, or lived in a society that practiced > it. Rather a religion's accuracy and authenticity are > based upon substantial evidence and firm intellectual > proofs. Intellect, the distinguishing factor between > mankind and animals, must be applied when studying the > issue of religion, which is undeniably the most > important and gravest of all matters. > A short journey into the world of religions and > sifting through various creeds could prove to be a > good method in arriving at the desired conclusion. In > order to save you the time and effort, I say with full > conviction and confidence that no matter how much you > investigate this issue, you will only arrive at one > reality: that the true and correct religion is Islam > and that true happiness and content lies within it. > > Before you hastily rebut this statement and stop > reading, please realize that completing the rest would > not harm you at all, and it may in fact benefit you. > Also, remember that you have an intellect by which you > can distinguish things and determine truth from > falsehood. > > Why Islam? > > This is an important question, indicating that the > questioner is mature and enlightened. In response I > say: > > Islam is a religion that includes a number of merits > and characteristics that are absent from other > religions. These characteristics, alone, serve as > convincing evidence that Islam is the true religion of > God. You can determine the authenticity of this > statement by contemplating them. > > Islam's many merits and characteristics make it > impossible to elaborate on all of them. However, some > of the most important can be summarized as follows: > > 1. Amongst the greatest merits of Islam is that it > fulfills the spiritual aspects of the human being and > enables those who embrace it to have an ongoing > connection with God. This makes it possible for them > to be at ease spiritually. It shields them from chaos, > being lost or feeling (spiritually) empty, and > protects from mental instability. > > 2. Another of Islam's merits is that it coincides > totally with common sense. All of the Islamic > legislation and its rulings are acceptable > intellectually and are never contradictory. One man > who embraced Islam was asked why he did so and > replied, "Islam never ordered me to do anything that I > later wished wasn't obligated, and it never forbade me > from anything that I later wished wasn't forbidden." > Much of what is readily accepted in other religions > causes great confusion. This confusion makes it > difficult to believe many of the fundamental > tenets/doctrines that these religions are based upon. > On the other hand, we find that Islam respects the > intellect, prohibits ignorance, and condemns blind > following. > > 3. Islam is an all-inclusive way of life attending to > both spiritual and physical needs. Practicing Islam > does not mean that one has to be secluded or that he > is prohibited from the finer things in life. Rather, > according to Islam, a person can be religious and > still enjoy a normal life - attaining prestigious > ranks/positions and achieving the highest academic > degrees. > > 4. Among the merits of Islam is that it is a > comprehensive religion. Every aspect of a person's > life is managed by Islam. There is not a problem > except that a solution for it lies in Islam, which > makes it possible to embrace and practice in every > time and place. How can this not be the case in such a > well organized religion that has guidelines and > positive instruction for every aspect of life > including: conflict resolution, buying and selling, > social and marital relations, greetings, public > etiquettes, and even how a person eats, sleeps and > dresses. These practices have not been addressed > generally, but rather in precise detail, causing the > mind to wonder in amazement. Know that Islam even > provides direction on how to wear and remove footwear. > It encourages people to use their right hand when > eating, drinking, shaking hands, and when giving and > receiving items. As for disliked affairs such as using > the bathroom, the left hand is to be used. > Islam also has wonderful instructions regarding going > to sleep and waking up. When two Muslims meet, Islam > directs them on how they should greet each other; a > rider should initiate greeting the pedestrian, the > youth should initiate greeting the elderly, and a > small group should initiate greeting a larger group. > These are but a few of Islam's many comprehensive > guidelines for all aspects of life. > > 5. Another of Islam's merits is that it establishes > good for mankind in all its regulations and safeguards > them from evil. It is man himself who benefits from > these regulations. Islam's prohibition of alcohol and > drugs for example is only because of the great harm > they cause to a person's physical and mental health. > You can witness the state of a drunken man, no longer > human except in appearance. A lot of murders, > disputes, traffic accidents and rapes would not have > taken place were it not for consuming these > mind-altering products. > Islam's prohibition of premarital sex relieves > societies of destructive diseases (such as AIDS and > other STDs), immoral behavior, and the existence of a > generation of illegitimate children. This generation > is often deprived of a mother's love and a father's > upbringing which can lead them to become burdensome on > society. Islam prohibits women from displaying > themselves publicly. This is because Islam considers > women to be valued, preserved pearls; not some cheap > merchandise to be displayed for all to see. It does so > to protect them from the wolves of mankind - those who > are only concerned with satisfying their lusts, even > if it is at the cost of a woman's honor, nobility, > status, and purity. > On the other hand, Islam permits all harmless and > beneficial drinks. It also permits married couples to > enjoy one another within a happy home. > In summary, Islam has not eliminated freedoms and > desires. Rather, it regulates them for the benefit of > mankind and the society at large. > > 6. A radiant aspect of Islam is that it pays a great > deal of attention to values, character, and > praiseworthy manners, while prohibiting mankind from > oppression, transgression and bad character. Islam is > a religion of love, unity and mercy. It defines an > individual's relationship with his parents, relatives, > neighbors, friends and all people. Islam embeds the > best of manners in those who embrace it and prevents > them from living selfishly. It encourages its > followers to help others and take others' feelings > into consideration - especially the poor, orphans, > elderly and widows. They all have rights in Islam that > must not be taken lightly by Muslims. Muslims > shouldn't feel like they are bestowing favors upon > others when giving them their due rights, rather these > rights are obligations upon Muslims. It is considered > to be a great sin in Islam for one to go to sleep with > a full stomach knowing that his neighbor is hungry. > Islam even prohibits two people from whispering to > each other in the presence of a third, taking his > feelings into consideration. Islam goes even further > than that, obligating kind treatment to animals and > prohibiting harming them. More specifically, Islam > prohibits slaughtering an animal while another > watches, or sharpening a knife while it is watching, > so that it is not tormented along with being > slaughtered. > > Truthfulness, trustworthiness, bravery, generosity, > humility, abiding by promises, visiting the sick, > attending funerals, being dutiful to parents, visiting > relatives and neighbors, and striving to help others > are all etiquettes that are encouraged by Islam. > On the other hand, Islam strictly prohibits > oppression, lying, conceitedness, envy, and insulting > or betraying others. It is impermissible in Islam to > speak ill of a person in his absence, even if what is > being said is true. Islam encourages people to > moderate in spending, being neither excessive nor > misers. > During times when a lot of societies complain about > cold heartedness, materialism, selfishness and so on, > we find that Islam has proven remedies for all of > these problems. > > This summarized introduction should make it clear that > Islam is a logical religion that can be easily > understood by all people. The doors to Islam are wide > open and do not shut for anyone looking to enter. > > Understanding all of Islam's teachings in a short > article is impossible. However, briefly discussing > some of its fundamental tenets should assist in > further clarifying the religion for those who are > interested. > > All of Islam's regulations and teachings are > important, but some have precedence over others. There > are six essential articles of faith that one must > believe in, and five pillars that one's faith must be > built upon. > > As for the six articles that must be believed in: > > 1. Believing in Allah (God) alone, associating no > partners unto Him in worship. This is done by > believing that Allah alone is the Creator of this > universe and everything that is within it, and that it > is He alone who disposes its affairs as He sees fit. > Consequently, worship can only be offered to Him > alone. Worship is implementing the teachings of Islam > and its legislation while believing that all other > religions are false. > > 2. Believing in the angels. Angels were created by > Allah but we can not see them. They worship Allah and > never disobey Him. Allah orders them to carry out many > of the universe's affairs. The angel Gabriel, for > example, (peace be upon him) delivers Allah's > revelation to the messengers. Another is Mikayeel > (peace be upon him), who is entrusted with the affairs > of rain. Still there are other angels responsible for > writing the deeds of mankind - deeds which they will > be held accountable for on the Day of Resurrection. It > is essential to believe that all of the angels act > solely upon the order of Allah and do only what He > wills. > > 3. Believing in the Books of Revelation. This means to > believe that Allah revealed books to His servants > comprising of His words. These books contain bliss for > mankind by clarifying what Allah is pleased with as > well as what He dislikes. The Angel charged with > delivering revelation to the Prophets is Gabriel > (peace be upon him) - the greatest of angels. A > prophet then conveys the revelation to the rest of > mankind. > Allah has revealed many books, amongst them: The > Torah, revealed to Moses (peace be upon him), The > Psalms, revealed to David (peace be upon him), The > Gospel, sent down to Jesus (peace be upon him) and the > Quran, which was revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon > him). > One must believe that the Quran has abrogated all > books prior to it, meaning that - after the Prophet > (Muhammad) was sent - it is the only book that can be > acted upon, especially since the Quran combines all > the merits of past books and further supplements them. > > Know that the Quran is from the greatest evidences > that this religion is the truth revealed by Allah > (God) the Most High. The Quran was revealed over 1400 > years ago. Since then till this day, no contradictions > or mistakes have been found in the Quran, not even in > a single word. Many of the scientific discoveries of > modern times were mentioned in the Quran. Since that > time until today, nothing has been added to or > subtracted from the Quran, while previous revelations > have been tampered with and altered. > It is for this reason that you can pick up a copy of > the Quran in the far East and find it to be exactly > the same as one you pick up in the far West. If you > were to come across a copy of the Quran that is > hundreds of years old, you would also find that it is > exactly the same as the one being printed currently - > you wouldn't be able to find even one letter that is > different. This is because of Allah's protection of > this Book, the Book of the religion that sealed all > other religions. > Speaking about the Quran would take a lot of time. > However, it is enough for you to know that there is > nothing like it whatsoever; not by way of (literary) > style, its effect on people, nor its information about > the unseen. > 4. Believing in the Prophets. This is done by > believing that Allah has chosen the best of mankind to > be recipients of His revelation and ordered them to > convey His religion to the people. There are numerous > Prophets, among them are: Noah, Abraham, David, > Solomon, Lot, Joseph, Moses and others (peace be upon > all of them). Also from them is Jesus. It is > imperative to believe that he is among the best of > Prophets and to love and respect him. Whoever despises > him or denies his prophethood is not Muslim. Likewise > it is compulsory to believe that Allah created him > from a mother only, with no father, just as Allah > created Adam with neither a mother nor a father. > Having mentioned this, we now know that Jesus is a > noble messenger and not God, nor is he a son of God. > He foretold the coming of a prophet to come after him; > Muhammad ibn (the son of) Abdullah, the last of the > prophets. > Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace be upon him) was sent > 1400 years ago. It is compulsory for everyone who > comes after him until the Day of Judgment to believe > in him and his message, and obey his orders and > prohibitions. > All those who studied the biography of this messenger > have agreed that he is a great personality who has > been bestowed with the best of manners and most noble > etiquettes. He had characteristics which were not > present in anyone before him and will not be present > in anyone after him. Anything that you read about him, > no matter how small it is, confirms what I am saying. > Allah has also granted him proofs and evidences that > establish the authenticity of his prophethood, thus > having doubt in this fact is intellectually > impossible. Having been given such proofs and > evidences of his prophethood, whoever denies his > truthfulness, would make it impossible for that > individual to establish the truthfulness of any other > prophet. > > 5. The Last Day. This is fulfilled firmly believing > that after this life of ours is over, there is another > more complete life. In it, there are immense rewards > and magnificent luxuries, as well as punishment. > Luxury is in Heaven and punishment in Hell. So whoever > is righteous and believes in the religion of Islam > enters Heaven, a place that contains untold pleasure > and unimagined bliss. All the luxuries on earth cannot > be compared to it at all. Whoever enters Heaven will > continue to live in such luxuries for eternity as > death does not exist therein. > As for those who act upon evil and do not believe in > Islam, they would end up in Hell, which contains fires > and punishment that can not be imagined, all of the > fires of earth and forms of punishment cannot be > compared to the punishment of the hellfire at all. > The existence of punishment and reward after this life > is an issue that is intellectually acknowledged, > because it is impossible for this world to exist and > then just diminish into nothingness. This is trifling > about, and our Lord, the Creator, does not engage in > such activities. > > 6. Believing in Divine Decree. This is to believe that > everything that happens in this world is due to > Allah's knowledge and will. Nothing except what He > wills takes place, and what He does not will, does not > take place. Allah has written everything in a great > book (The Preserved Tablet). Believing in divine > decree also includes believing that Allah created > everything. > > As for the five pillars that must be practiced: > > 1. Uttering a phrase that is the key to entering into > Islam. It is a contract between a servant and his > Lord, signifying that he is upon this religion: > "Ashhadu an la ilaha ila Allah, wa ashadu ana Muhammad > `abduhu wa rasuluhu." > "I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of > worship except Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant > and Messenger." > This testimony signifies the acceptance, admission, > and adherence to the fact that worship must be offered > to Allah alone. It also includes the acceptance of > Islam as the only correct religion, Allah as the only > true deity deserving worship, and that all other > deities and religions are false. The second part of > the testimony entails an affirmation that Muhammad is > the Messenger of Allah and that he is to be obeyed and > believed in all that he says. > > 2. The Prayer. It is a combination of statements, > actions and invocations carried out in a specific > manner. It is performed five times daily and doesn't > take much time at all. In fact, a prayer may not take > more than five minutes. Prayer is the link between a > servant and his Lord. It enables a Muslim to be > confident, mentally and spiritually at rest, calm and > untroubled. > > 3. The Zakaat. A wealthy Muslim must give a small > portion of his money to the poor, 2.5% of his wealth > to be exact. Even though it is a small amount, it > enables the Muslim community to be conciliated and > merciful amongst each other. It propagates > brotherhood, love and concern amongst Muslims. And > again, Zakaat is only to be given out by the wealthy, > not the poor. > > 4. Fasting. What is meant by fasting is that a person > withholds from eating, drinking and sexual relations > during the month of Ramadan [which is the 9th month of > the lunar calendar] between dawn and sunset. The sick, > travelers, and those with valid excuses are pardoned > from fasting. They are permitted to eat and drink but > must make up the missed days once they become able. > Fasting has many health, personal, and social > benefits. Amongst them are: giving the digestive > system a break, allowing Muslims to grow spiritually > and practice good mannerisms. It enables Muslims to be > conscious of their needy brothers and sisters, those > who are unable to find enough food to satisfy their > needs throughout the year. Consequently, the Muslims > humble themselves and strive to help them. > > 5. Hajj. It is a form of worship that must be > performed only once in a lifetime, in Makkah. Those > who are physically incapable or not financially able > to perform it are pardoned from doing so. > Hajj contains many magnificent benefits; the gathering > of Muslims from all around the globe in one place > getting to know each other and displaying love for one > another, not to mention what a Muslim achieves by way > of spiritual purification and character refinement due > > === message truncated === > > > --------------------------------- > Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have it. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17232|17224|2008-04-19 10:05:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 06:24:41AM -0000, ohmy.mygosh wrote: > I assume Alex set this group up and he has been obvious only by his > absents lately. Maybe it's time some one with an on going interest > took over. To reiterate the point that someone made earlier: ************************************************************************ When you follow up to an objectionable post, *PLEASE* remove the content you're complaining about. Otherwise, you're magnifying the problem instead of solving it. ************************************************************************ > There are a lot of off topic links in the "links" section that can > only be there with the approval of the moderater. > Anyone putting up their hand. I'm not, but I agree,I don't need all > the 'extra', shall we call it spam, that comes my way. You're demanding that somebody give up their time for your benefit without offering to help. Nice. (Incidentally, the 'spam that comes my way' excuse doesn't hold water: if you were a co-moderator, you'd be logging into Yahoo and doing list tasks there, not in your mailbox.) Let me put it this way - if someone gives you a drink of water, does that give you the right to demand a seven-course dinner from them? This is, in effect, what you're doing instead of expressing your gratitude for the water. Yahoo lists - for all their "convenience" - do not allow good moderation options (e.g., installing a tunable spam filter and holding questionable posts.) Instead, they require either 1) constant moderation, 2) delayed posting for everyone, or 3) a list which is ocasionally going to be plagued by spam. Alex's policy, from what I see, is to moderate when he can (option #1) and leave it on #3 the rest of the time. If you, or anyone, can see a more sensible approach - and are willing to actually contribute some of your own time instead of demanding more of his - I'm sure that he'd love to hear from you. Otherwise, I'd suggest less grousing and more (expressed) gratitude. (Speaking of which: thank you, Alex. Your initial and ongoing efforts are not going unnoticed - some of us are indeed grateful.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17233|17224|2008-04-19 10:39:57|Tom Mann|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|Actualy we get very little spam compared to some other online forums and what we do get, the delete key works wonders. Tom On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:24 PM, ohmy.mygosh wrote: > I assume Alex set this group up and he has been obvious only by his > absents lately. Maybe it's time some one with an on going interest > took over. > There are a lot of off topic links in the "links" section that can > only be there with the approval of the moderater. > Anyone putting up their hand. I'm not, but I agree,I don't need all > the 'extra', shall we call it spam, that comes my way. > > Ohmy. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Pradyumn kapoor > wrote: > > > > don't send me electures > > > > > > Knut F Garshol wrote: > > THIS IS WAY OFF TOPIC FOR THE FORUM AND HAS NO PLACE HERE! > > > > > > > > PLEASE BLOCK FURTHER ATTEMPTS AT POSTING FROM THIS SOURCE. > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of ahmed montaser > > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 6:51 AM > > To: sad@... > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ? > > > > > > > > Happiness is a common goal that everyone strives to > > attain. Philosophers, intellectuals, doctors and > > artists alike have all strived in search of the causes > > of happiness and ways to escape anxiety. > > > > The reality is, however, that the proposed solutions > > achieve only partial or superficial happiness. They > > are more or less like drugs which only provide > > temporary relief; when their effect wares off, > > anxieties return two fold. > > > > The following words invite you to ultimate happiness > > and will lead you to true success. But before you > > begin reading, I hope that you to take a moment to try > > to open your heart and mind - as the intelligent one > > is he who searches for the truth no matter where it > > lies. > > > > An undeniable reality is that permanent happiness > > cannot be achieved except by believing in God - The > > Creator - and following His guidance. Since it is He > > who created mankind, He is the one who knows what > > pleases and benefits them, just as he knows what > > saddens and harms them. A number of psychologists have > > affirmed that only a religious person lives with true > > content and serenity. So if believing in God leads to > > ultimate happiness, then how can this be achieved? > > > > There are numerous religions and a variety of creeds. > > However, their critical differences in core issues > > make it impossible for all of them to be correct. So > > which is the correct religion? What is the correct > > creed that God requires us to believe in and in the > > end pleases Him? And which one of these creeds > > guarantees us happiness in this life and in the > > hereafter? > > > > Before answering these questions, a criterion must > > first be established to be used as a basis for > > correctly determining the true religion. I firmly > > believe that all sensible people will agree that a > > religion is not deemed correct simply due to the fact > > that one was raised in that religion, had parents that > > adhered to it, or lived in a society that practiced > > it. Rather a religion's accuracy and authenticity are > > based upon substantial evidence and firm intellectual > > proofs. Intellect, the distinguishing factor between > > mankind and animals, must be applied when studying the > > issue of religion, which is undeniably the most > > important and gravest of all matters. > > A short journey into the world of religions and > > sifting through various creeds could prove to be a > > good method in arriving at the desired conclusion. In > > order to save you the time and effort, I say with full > > conviction and confidence that no matter how much you > > investigate this issue, you will only arrive at one > > reality: that the true and correct religion is Islam > > and that true happiness and content lies within it. > > > > Before you hastily rebut this statement and stop > > reading, please realize that completing the rest would > > not harm you at all, and it may in fact benefit you. > > Also, remember that you have an intellect by which you > > can distinguish things and determine truth from > > falsehood. > > > > Why Islam? > > > > This is an important question, indicating that the > > questioner is mature and enlightened. In response I > > say: > > > > Islam is a religion that includes a number of merits > > and characteristics that are absent from other > > religions. These characteristics, alone, serve as > > convincing evidence that Islam is the true religion of > > God. You can determine the authenticity of this > > statement by contemplating them. > > > > Islam's many merits and characteristics make it > > impossible to elaborate on all of them. However, some > > of the most important can be summarized as follows: > > > > 1. Amongst the greatest merits of Islam is that it > > fulfills the spiritual aspects of the human being and > > enables those who embrace it to have an ongoing > > connection with God. This makes it possible for them > > to be at ease spiritually. It shields them from chaos, > > being lost or feeling (spiritually) empty, and > > protects from mental instability. > > > > 2. Another of Islam's merits is that it coincides > > totally with common sense. All of the Islamic > > legislation and its rulings are acceptable > > intellectually and are never contradictory. One man > > who embraced Islam was asked why he did so and > > replied, "Islam never ordered me to do anything that I > > later wished wasn't obligated, and it never forbade me > > from anything that I later wished wasn't forbidden." > > Much of what is readily accepted in other religions > > causes great confusion. This confusion makes it > > difficult to believe many of the fundamental > > tenets/doctrines that these religions are based upon. > > On the other hand, we find that Islam respects the > > intellect, prohibits ignorance, and condemns blind > > following. > > > > 3. Islam is an all-inclusive way of life attending to > > both spiritual and physical needs. Practicing Islam > > does not mean that one has to be secluded or that he > > is prohibited from the finer things in life. Rather, > > according to Islam, a person can be religious and > > still enjoy a normal life - attaining prestigious > > ranks/positions and achieving the highest academic > > degrees. > > > > 4. Among the merits of Islam is that it is a > > comprehensive religion. Every aspect of a person's > > life is managed by Islam. There is not a problem > > except that a solution for it lies in Islam, which > > makes it possible to embrace and practice in every > > time and place. How can this not be the case in such a > > well organized religion that has guidelines and > > positive instruction for every aspect of life > > including: conflict resolution, buying and selling, > > social and marital relations, greetings, public > > etiquettes, and even how a person eats, sleeps and > > dresses. These practices have not been addressed > > generally, but rather in precise detail, causing the > > mind to wonder in amazement. Know that Islam even > > provides direction on how to wear and remove footwear. > > It encourages people to use their right hand when > > eating, drinking, shaking hands, and when giving and > > receiving items. As for disliked affairs such as using > > the bathroom, the left hand is to be used. > > Islam also has wonderful instructions regarding going > > to sleep and waking up. When two Muslims meet, Islam > > directs them on how they should greet each other; a > > rider should initiate greeting the pedestrian, the > > youth should initiate greeting the elderly, and a > > small group should initiate greeting a larger group. > > These are but a few of Islam's many comprehensive > > guidelines for all aspects of life. > > > > 5. Another of Islam's merits is that it establishes > > good for mankind in all its regulations and safeguards > > them from evil. It is man himself who benefits from > > these regulations. Islam's prohibition of alcohol and > > drugs for example is only because of the great harm > > they cause to a person's physical and mental health. > > You can witness the state of a drunken man, no longer > > human except in appearance. A lot of murders, > > disputes, traffic accidents and rapes would not have > > taken place were it not for consuming these > > mind-altering products. > > Islam's prohibition of premarital sex relieves > > societies of destructive diseases (such as AIDS and > > other STDs), immoral behavior, and the existence of a > > generation of illegitimate children. This generation > > is often deprived of a mother's love and a father's > > upbringing which can lead them to become burdensome on > > society. Islam prohibits women from displaying > > themselves publicly. This is because Islam considers > > women to be valued, preserved pearls; not some cheap > > merchandise to be displayed for all to see. It does so > > to protect them from the wolves of mankind - those who > > are only concerned with satisfying their lusts, even > > if it is at the cost of a woman's honor, nobility, > > status, and purity. > > On the other hand, Islam permits all harmless and > > beneficial drinks. It also permits married couples to > > enjoy one another within a happy home. > > In summary, Islam has not eliminated freedoms and > > desires. Rather, it regulates them for the benefit of > > mankind and the society at large. > > > > 6. A radiant aspect of Islam is that it pays a great > > deal of attention to values, character, and > > praiseworthy manners, while prohibiting mankind from > > oppression, transgression and bad character. Islam is > > a religion of love, unity and mercy. It defines an > > individual's relationship with his parents, relatives, > > neighbors, friends and all people. Islam embeds the > > best of manners in those who embrace it and prevents > > them from living selfishly. It encourages its > > followers to help others and take others' feelings > > into consideration - especially the poor, orphans, > > elderly and widows. They all have rights in Islam that > > must not be taken lightly by Muslims. Muslims > > shouldn't feel like they are bestowing favors upon > > others when giving them their due rights, rather these > > rights are obligations upon Muslims. It is considered > > to be a great sin in Islam for one to go to sleep with > > a full stomach knowing that his neighbor is hungry. > > Islam even prohibits two people from whispering to > > each other in the presence of a third, taking his > > feelings into consideration. Islam goes even further > > than that, obligating kind treatment to animals and > > prohibiting harming them. More specifically, Islam > > prohibits slaughtering an animal while another > > watches, or sharpening a knife while it is watching, > > so that it is not tormented along with being > > slaughtered. > > > > Truthfulness, trustworthiness, bravery, generosity, > > humility, abiding by promises, visiting the sick, > > attending funerals, being dutiful to parents, visiting > > relatives and neighbors, and striving to help others > > are all etiquettes that are encouraged by Islam. > > On the other hand, Islam strictly prohibits > > oppression, lying, conceitedness, envy, and insulting > > or betraying others. It is impermissible in Islam to > > speak ill of a person in his absence, even if what is > > being said is true. Islam encourages people to > > moderate in spending, being neither excessive nor > > misers. > > During times when a lot of societies complain about > > cold heartedness, materialism, selfishness and so on, > > we find that Islam has proven remedies for all of > > these problems. > > > > This summarized introduction should make it clear that > > Islam is a logical religion that can be easily > > understood by all people. The doors to Islam are wide > > open and do not shut for anyone looking to enter. > > > > Understanding all of Islam's teachings in a short > > article is impossible. However, briefly discussing > > some of its fundamental tenets should assist in > > further clarifying the religion for those who are > > interested. > > > > All of Islam's regulations and teachings are > > important, but some have precedence over others. There > > are six essential articles of faith that one must > > believe in, and five pillars that one's faith must be > > built upon. > > > > As for the six articles that must be believed in: > > > > 1. Believing in Allah (God) alone, associating no > > partners unto Him in worship. This is done by > > believing that Allah alone is the Creator of this > > universe and everything that is within it, and that it > > is He alone who disposes its affairs as He sees fit. > > Consequently, worship can only be offered to Him > > alone. Worship is implementing the teachings of Islam > > and its legislation while believing that all other > > religions are false. > > > > 2. Believing in the angels. Angels were created by > > Allah but we can not see them. They worship Allah and > > never disobey Him. Allah orders them to carry out many > > of the universe's affairs. The angel Gabriel, for > > example, (peace be upon him) delivers Allah's > > revelation to the messengers. Another is Mikayeel > > (peace be upon him), who is entrusted with the affairs > > of rain. Still there are other angels responsible for > > writing the deeds of mankind - deeds which they will > > be held accountable for on the Day of Resurrection. It > > is essential to believe that all of the angels act > > solely upon the order of Allah and do only what He > > wills. > > > > 3. Believing in the Books of Revelation. This means to > > believe that Allah revealed books to His servants > > comprising of His words. These books contain bliss for > > mankind by clarifying what Allah is pleased with as > > well as what He dislikes. The Angel charged with > > delivering revelation to the Prophets is Gabriel > > (peace be upon him) - the greatest of angels. A > > prophet then conveys the revelation to the rest of > > mankind. > > Allah has revealed many books, amongst them: The > > Torah, revealed to Moses (peace be upon him), The > > Psalms, revealed to David (peace be upon him), The > > Gospel, sent down to Jesus (peace be upon him) and the > > Quran, which was revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon > > him). > > One must believe that the Quran has abrogated all > > books prior to it, meaning that - after the Prophet > > (Muhammad) was sent - it is the only book that can be > > acted upon, especially since the Quran combines all > > the merits of past books and further supplements them. > > > > Know that the Quran is from the greatest evidences > > that this religion is the truth revealed by Allah > > (God) the Most High. The Quran was revealed over 1400 > > years ago. Since then till this day, no contradictions > > or mistakes have been found in the Quran, not even in > > a single word. Many of the scientific discoveries of > > modern times were mentioned in the Quran. Since that > > time until today, nothing has been added to or > > subtracted from the Quran, while previous revelations > > have been tampered with and altered. > > It is for this reason that you can pick up a copy of > > the Quran in the far East and find it to be exactly > > the same as one you pick up in the far West. If you > > were to come across a copy of the Quran that is > > hundreds of years old, you would also find that it is > > exactly the same as the one being printed currently - > > you wouldn't be able to find even one letter that is > > different. This is because of Allah's protection of > > this Book, the Book of the religion that sealed all > > other religions. > > Speaking about the Quran would take a lot of time. > > However, it is enough for you to know that there is > > nothing like it whatsoever; not by way of (literary) > > style, its effect on people, nor its information about > > the unseen. > > 4. Believing in the Prophets. This is done by > > believing that Allah has chosen the best of mankind to > > be recipients of His revelation and ordered them to > > convey His religion to the people. There are numerous > > Prophets, among them are: Noah, Abraham, David, > > Solomon, Lot, Joseph, Moses and others (peace be upon > > all of them). Also from them is Jesus. It is > > imperative to believe that he is among the best of > > Prophets and to love and respect him. Whoever despises > > him or denies his prophethood is not Muslim. Likewise > > it is compulsory to believe that Allah created him > > from a mother only, with no father, just as Allah > > created Adam with neither a mother nor a father. > > Having mentioned this, we now know that Jesus is a > > noble messenger and not God, nor is he a son of God. > > He foretold the coming of a prophet to come after him; > > Muhammad ibn (the son of) Abdullah, the last of the > > prophets. > > Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace be upon him) was sent > > 1400 years ago. It is compulsory for everyone who > > comes after him until the Day of Judgment to believe > > in him and his message, and obey his orders and > > prohibitions. > > All those who studied the biography of this messenger > > have agreed that he is a great personality who has > > been bestowed with the best of manners and most noble > > etiquettes. He had characteristics which were not > > present in anyone before him and will not be present > > in anyone after him. Anything that you read about him, > > no matter how small it is, confirms what I am saying. > > Allah has also granted him proofs and evidences that > > establish the authenticity of his prophethood, thus > > having doubt in this fact is intellectually > > impossible. Having been given such proofs and > > evidences of his prophethood, whoever denies his > > truthfulness, would make it impossible for that > > individual to establish the truthfulness of any other > > prophet. > > > > 5. The Last Day. This is fulfilled firmly believing > > that after this life of ours is over, there is another > > more complete life. In it, there are immense rewards > > and magnificent luxuries, as well as punishment. > > Luxury is in Heaven and punishment in Hell. So whoever > > is righteous and believes in the religion of Islam > > enters Heaven, a place that contains untold pleasure > > and unimagined bliss. All the luxuries on earth cannot > > be compared to it at all. Whoever enters Heaven will > > continue to live in such luxuries for eternity as > > death does not exist therein. > > As for those who act upon evil and do not believe in > > Islam, they would end up in Hell, which contains fires > > and punishment that can not be imagined, all of the > > fires of earth and forms of punishment cannot be > > compared to the punishment of the hellfire at all. > > The existence of punishment and reward after this life > > is an issue that is intellectually acknowledged, > > because it is impossible for this world to exist and > > then just diminish into nothingness. This is trifling > > about, and our Lord, the Creator, does not engage in > > such activities. > > > > 6. Believing in Divine Decree. This is to believe that > > everything that happens in this world is due to > > Allah's knowledge and will. Nothing except what He > > wills takes place, and what He does not will, does not > > take place. Allah has written everything in a great > > book (The Preserved Tablet). Believing in divine > > decree also includes believing that Allah created > > everything. > > > > As for the five pillars that must be practiced: > > > > 1. Uttering a phrase that is the key to entering into > > Islam. It is a contract between a servant and his > > Lord, signifying that he is upon this religion: > > "Ashhadu an la ilaha ila Allah, wa ashadu ana Muhammad > > `abduhu wa rasuluhu." > > "I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of > > worship except Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant > > and Messenger." > > This testimony signifies the acceptance, admission, > > and adherence to the fact that worship must be offered > > to Allah alone. It also includes the acceptance of > > Islam as the only correct religion, Allah as the only > > true deity deserving worship, and that all other > > deities and religions are false. The second part of > > the testimony entails an affirmation that Muhammad is > > the Messenger of Allah and that he is to be obeyed and > > believed in all that he says. > > > > 2. The Prayer. It is a combination of statements, > > actions and invocations carried out in a specific > > manner. It is performed five times daily and doesn't > > take much time at all. In fact, a prayer may not take > > more than five minutes. Prayer is the link between a > > servant and his Lord. It enables a Muslim to be > > confident, mentally and spiritually at rest, calm and > > untroubled. > > > > 3. The Zakaat. A wealthy Muslim must give a small > > portion of his money to the poor, 2.5% of his wealth > > to be exact. Even though it is a small amount, it > > enables the Muslim community to be conciliated and > > merciful amongst each other. It propagates > > brotherhood, love and concern amongst Muslims. And > > again, Zakaat is only to be given out by the wealthy, > > not the poor. > > > > 4. Fasting. What is meant by fasting is that a person > > withholds from eating, drinking and sexual relations > > during the month of Ramadan [which is the 9th month of > > the lunar calendar] between dawn and sunset. The sick, > > travelers, and those with valid excuses are pardoned > > from fasting. They are permitted to eat and drink but > > must make up the missed days once they become able. > > Fasting has many health, personal, and social > > benefits. Amongst them are: giving the digestive > > system a break, allowing Muslims to grow spiritually > > and practice good mannerisms. It enables Muslims to be > > conscious of their needy brothers and sisters, those > > who are unable to find enough food to satisfy their > > needs throughout the year. Consequently, the Muslims > > humble themselves and strive to help them. > > > > 5. Hajj. It is a form of worship that must be > > performed only once in a lifetime, in Makkah. Those > > who are physically incapable or not financially able > > to perform it are pardoned from doing so. > > Hajj contains many magnificent benefits; the gathering > > of Muslims from all around the globe in one place > > getting to know each other and displaying love for one > > another, not to mention what a Muslim achieves by way > > of spiritual purification and character refinement due > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have > it. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17234|17224|2008-04-19 13:28:40|ohmy.mygosh|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|Ohmy, Ben darling there you are right on cue. Ben it was you darling I had in mind when I made my post. I just knew that any man who was an Editor IN CHEIF of anything would know all the procedures and protocols better than a silly girl like me. Ben you seem perfect darling, please consider it; as it seems you have odoles of time for such pedantic pleasures. Ben I just get wet when ever I read one of your posts when you give a bit of stick to the boys, so com'on ben do it darling, do it for me. Heavens we may even get a bit of desert and coffee along with the water and main course, with an editor IN CHEIF flogging the forum. Mygosh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 06:24:41AM -0000, ohmy.mygosh wrote: > > I assume Alex set this group up and he has been obvious only by his > > absents lately. Maybe it's time some one with an on going interest > > took over. > > To reiterate the point that someone made earlier: > > ********************************************************************** ** > When you follow up to an objectionable post, *PLEASE* remove the content > you're complaining about. Otherwise, you're magnifying the problem > instead of solving it. > ********************************************************************** ** > > > There are a lot of off topic links in the "links" section that can > > only be there with the approval of the moderater. > > Anyone putting up their hand. I'm not, but I agree,I don't need all > > the 'extra', shall we call it spam, that comes my way. > > You're demanding that somebody give up their time for your benefit > without offering to help. Nice. (Incidentally, the 'spam that comes my > way' excuse doesn't hold water: if you were a co-moderator, you'd be > logging into Yahoo and doing list tasks there, not in your mailbox.) Let > me put it this way - if someone gives you a drink of water, does that > give you the right to demand a seven-course dinner from them? This is, > in effect, what you're doing instead of expressing your gratitude for > the water. > > Yahoo lists - for all their "convenience" - do not allow good moderation > options (e.g., installing a tunable spam filter and holding questionable > posts.) Instead, they require either 1) constant moderation, 2) delayed > posting for everyone, or 3) a list which is ocasionally going to be > plagued by spam. Alex's policy, from what I see, is to moderate when he > can (option #1) and leave it on #3 the rest of the time. If you, or > anyone, can see a more sensible approach - and are willing to actually > contribute some of your own time instead of demanding more of his - I'm > sure that he'd love to hear from you. Otherwise, I'd suggest less > grousing and more (expressed) gratitude. > > (Speaking of which: thank you, Alex. Your initial and ongoing efforts > are not going unnoticed - some of us are indeed grateful.) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17235|17224|2008-04-19 13:53:57|Ben Okopnik|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 05:28:38PM -0000, ohmy.mygosh wrote: > Ohmy, Ben darling there you are right on cue. *Yawn* You're not even a _smart_ troll; that, at least, would have been entertaining. Oh, and you'd better go get that homophobia looked at before it gets infected. In any case, have a nice life. [Troll's email address has been added to my killfile. Now, I won't even need to hi the 'delete' key; that's what *I* call efficiency.] -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17236|17236|2008-04-19 13:54:15|ahmed montaser|last breath|http://saaid.net/flash/last-breath.htm ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ| 17237|17224|2008-04-19 16:31:53|lachica31|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ohmy.mygosh" wrote: > > I assume Alex set this group up and he has been obvious only by his > absents lately. Maybe it's time some one with an on going interest > took over. > There are a lot of off topic links in the "links" section that can > only be there with the approval of the moderater. > Anyone putting up their hand. I'm not, but I agree,I don't need all > the 'extra', shall we call it spam, that comes my way. > > Ohmy. I do not know who you are, since I have never seen you post here before, but you are very obviously an ignorant and ungrateful bore. _Ignorant_, because you repeat the spam that you object to. _Ungrateful_, you are complaining about something that you benefit from but do not contribute to in any manner or assist in it's administration in anyway. A _bore_, because you object to the obvious. You just come across as a typical leech, just taking, complaining and giving nothing. Alex has done a fantastic job with this forum, it is also his, to do with what he pleases. Should you not like the way it is run, you are most welcome to go elsewhere. Regards, Paul Thompson| 17238|17238|2008-04-19 19:01:33|jameshawk99|spam and ignorance|If you are not interested in sailing, sea life, and origsmi designs, then get off the sight and bother people who don't care about boats ! Jim| 17239|17239|2008-04-19 19:08:13|jameshawk99|spelling error|I am so frustrated with spam that I miss-spelled origami. Opologies for all my miss-spellings. I love the ocean,, the sea and any or all designs of ship/boat building and now really appreciate the origami methods-------hats off to whomever has had the insight to get it off the ground. Jim| 17240|17240|2008-04-19 19:20:57|jameshawk99|Brent---what is your recommendation about shaft size for a 56 foot |I am sourcing out things for my aluminum 56 and want anyones opinion on the shaft size for a 56 of aluminum with a 14' beam. I want a three blade solid prop------ and am interested in a deisel with possible alternate pto electric --dc drive. I plan to live aboard, Jim| 17241|17240|2008-04-19 19:25:22|Salvador|Re: Brent---what is your recommendation about shaft size for a 56 f|I would be interested in reading answers to your question, since I am planning on building a 44ft sailboat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jameshawk99" wrote: > > I am sourcing out things for my aluminum 56 and want anyones opinion on > the shaft size for a 56 of aluminum with a 14' beam. I want a three > blade solid prop------ and am interested in a deisel with possible > alternate pto electric --dc drive. I plan to live aboard, > > Jim > | 17242|17224|2008-04-20 08:35:19|audeojude|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ?|This is the truth.. Comparatively there is very little external spam on this group.. Not enough to be a hassle most of the time. Most of the spam is internally generated bye the few on here that seem unable to not get into verbal battles over non topic subjects. So for those people, please don't spam the rest of us :) Think how you feel when your frustrated by off topic spam that your not interested in. That is how all the rest of us feel about the long diatribes over global warming etc... I want to hear what your doing with your boats. I even want to hear what your doing to your boats to make them more green! Electric, composting toilets, LED lighting, etc. I just don't want to hear your personal views on what the rest of the universe is doing wrong or why they should do what you think is right. sincerely, scott ps.. Alex.. thank you for your work in supporting this group. I think you hit the right balance... more non intervention than not. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Actualy we get very little spam compared to some other online forums and > what we do get, the delete key works wonders. > Tom > | 17243|17224|2008-04-20 09:43:57|Carl Anderson|Mast Rake -|Brent, What are the specs' on mast rake? We've cut all of our spreaders, back stays. etc & Carl will now eye splice one end to ready for our mast. We hope to raise the mast come late June, early July. But while we're here in Utah, we're doing what we can to ready Moonflower of Moab. Thanks, Kate [n' Carl] Moonflower of Moab| 17245|17245|2008-04-20 12:55:55|kelly.morrisey|freebie|Hello Members!Like most of us, I am always on a tight budget, so I am always on the lookout for freebies, samples, cheap deals and bargains. It does help!I just joined another brilliant group for freebies, so I thought I would share the info: http://groups.google.com/group/freebiefinder Its an excellent group, and has lots of stuff which is completely free!I just downloaded some of their fantastic audio books...free!,and foundsome fantstic links to other free stuff. Go and join, it costs nothing!I will post a couple of freebies that I have tried, when I get more time!Grace XOh..I almost forgot!..here is a great freebie offer: [Click here] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17246|17224|2008-04-20 18:16:10|brentswain38|Re: Mast Rake -|Start with about ten inches , shift it foreward to reduce weather helm, aft to increase it. Do you plan to come up here this summer, and cruise all summer? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Brent, > > What are the specs' on mast rake? > > We've cut all of our spreaders, back stays. etc & Carl will now eye > splice one end to ready for our mast. > > We hope to raise the mast come late June, early July. > But while we're here in Utah, we're doing what we can to ready > Moonflower of Moab. > > Thanks, > > Kate [n' Carl] > Moonflower of Moab > | 17247|17247|2008-04-20 18:38:17|brentswain38|Costs|Some have grumbled about their boats costing far more than they expected. My book gives a lot of tips for keeping costs down. You can build a boat for a reasonable price, only if you keep your eye out for opportunities , and don't get sucked into buying anything retail, or wholesale for that matter, if you don't have to, and always take a hard look at whether you can build anything yourself before buying it. However, I make no claim that if you buy all your interior materials new at the building supplies, turn your nose down at pefectly good salvaged materials fom steel to plywood, hardware ,and trim, buy all your sheet blocks new for horrendous prices, blocks that take only a couple of dollars worth of materials and a few minutes work to build yourself , hire people to do work that you are perfectly capable of doing yourself, turn your nose up at pefectly good used sails, and other gear, and buy them new at many times the cost , for no justifiable benefit, that your boat will be anything but expensive.It definitly can cost a fortune regardles of materials or method, but doesn't have to if you are lead by your brains instead of your ego. Penis extender boats are expensive. Snobbery costs, and always will, period. Some have said "Ya Brent, you can do that but not everybody else can." Bullshit!! With a bit of imagination and the tips in my book , anyone can save tens of thousands of dollars. We are awash in wasted materials , used equipment etc, for a fraction of the new price, even a tiny fraction of the wholesale price, being as we live in the super wasteful ,effluent society. Resoucefullnes is a very challenging and enjoyable persuit. Don' t blame me if you fail to follow the directions or you consider it below your dignity to pick a weathered piece of well proven plywood of the beach or out of a dumpster. Champagne yachting comes with champagne prices, and the subsequent loss of fredom , if you are not awash in cash and are vainly trying to prove that you are richer than you realy are. Brent| 17250|17224|2008-04-21 12:06:45|Carl Anderson|Re: Mast Rake -|Thanks for the info. Won't be cruising but will be in Beecher Bay from mid June till end of July. Drop by if your "down island" during this time. Carl brentswain38 wrote: > > > Start with about ten inches , shift it foreward to reduce weather > helm, aft to increase it. > Do you plan to come up here this summer, and cruise all summer? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > What are the specs' on mast rake? > > > > We've cut all of our spreaders, back stays. etc & Carl will now eye > > splice one end to ready for our mast. > > > > We hope to raise the mast come late June, early July. > > But while we're here in Utah, we're doing what we can to ready > > Moonflower of Moab. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kate [n' Carl] > > Moonflower of Moab > > > > | 17251|17127|2008-04-21 15:08:08|khooper_fboats|Re: Outboard power for BS boats|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > but one day i got caught out in a 48 knot storm that came out of the blue, > she wouldn't start for 6 minutes, probably got a bit wet inside. > My girlfriend was on board and she was a tad unimpressed plus being a 50% financial backer of my/our 31 BS > she put her foot down and said we are getting an inboard diesel. (what can you say) > for example 20hp new honda = $4,500 > thrust prop = $ 250 > > > Yanma 29hp = $12,600 > prop, shaft, fuel tank etc = $2,900 > > note (1 Aussie $ = 92c US) Shane, Allen Machine in Chattanooga carries new Yanmar or Mitsu diesel, 28 hp peak 23 continuous, for $1900 USD. I know you're in Aus but dang, maybe you can do better if you shop around some. I had always thought that inboards are *always* cheaper than outboards on a per-hp basis. Ken| 17252|16991|2008-04-21 20:02:31|Carl Volkwein|Re: Argo - the complete story|So, let's hurry up and build our boats, carry self suffishent amounts of electric in the form of storage batteries, charged from solar, and wind and show the rest of them how to do it Carl "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > From one standpoint your arguments are valid, however they do not stand up to reasonable scrutinity. Yes, unfortunately when, before or after temps increase or decrease has not been clarified. That is still an issue being researched. However, so called greenhouse gases have been consistently and associatively measured with temp changes. Perhaps they are not causative and just merely a resultant of these effects. Most studies weigh the evadence as saying CO2 rise follows temp rise not creates it. In either case, man's continued destruction of CO2 sinks and releasing of CO2 thru fossil fuel burning is demonstrating a clearly measureable effect in the short term. How? Perhaps that is good and we are delaying the end of the current interglacial period staving off the inevitable return to glaciation. Only time will tell for sure. :) Would that be bad I mean realy. Warming would turn many deserts to savanas and more evaperation and rain making more land green not brown. The equatorial rain forests had been growing to the North and South and actualy getting bigger in centural America. I've used ARCGIS to predict where to buy ocean front land for each 1' of sea level increase. Anyone want to invest while inland land is cheap? I am trying to cut a deal with Universal. :-) > At the depth of the thickness of a paper match per year it would have to be a investment for our great grand kids. > A lot of this determination will depend on where your opinion falls in the approximately 190MY galactic orbit theory (seems also to correlate with mass extinctions), the 40K-200K Milankovitch cycles (a dude waaayyyy before his time) and their interrelationships. If we assume that the current earth temperatures are due to cyclic galactic orbital effects, then why has the pattern been broken and we are at greater temps in a phenomenally shorter time frame than history illustrates? Same applies to Milankovitch cycles (jury is still out on his predictions, but I'll wager he will be vindicated). That is, in the past 150 yrs the earth has managed to exceed max avg historical temps that took several thousands of years to reach historically. Seems if we are talking about a cyclic process that is on the order of 40K - 100K+ years that is also further mediated by a larger cyclic process on 190K years, then the argument that the temp increase over the past 200yrs is due to > orbital effects alone doesn't quite make sense. Also this would not explain why the CO2 increase curve, temperature increase curve, and planetary human population growth curves are correlated. And most of this data is from direct measurement. Suuure you can find periods of drecrease and stagnation to quibble about, but the curves still go up and up and up. In 200 years that is some what true. In the longer term it only falls true for human population. The sun spot cycles as well where extreams happen is when many of these cycles aline so you get the compounded effect. > > None of this excuses us from the real issue of enery conservation and shifting to localized energy generation where homes and buildings are built to very high conservation standards with solar production of electricity taking up some of the electrical and heating load. As this technology improves it should be able to replace most if not all of the electrical needs thougout a significant portion of the States. Working to provide economic alternatives to destruction of carbon sequestering forests and plains areas would easily and more cheaply help the situation. One could go on all day of why the hell are we using 1800's technology to build, heat and cool our homes? Wind power taking up vast space for a tecnolage that is truly intermitent requiers a whole new power grid and transmision lines as well as other fueled power suplies to back them up in a sudden lull. Then there is the inpact on wild life with many court cases across the US for killing of large numbers of endangered birds. Solar is a low efficency solution and very limeted for building a industral econamy due to output to cost. What we can do is INSOLATE COMERCAL BUILDINGS. Turn waste not food into energy. Use the new generation of incondessent lights because people being people useing CFL's will be putting more Mercery into land fills then power plants. Get back to crop rotation so there is less fosil fuel used for make fertalizers and runoff causeing dead zones in the oceans. When it comes to forests in the NW there is actualy more board feet of timber growing now then when Europeans first came from state forestry reports. Anchent tec would be wood and candels or in some countries coal or peet. Then came coal in the US and then gas. Each step the efficency inproved and the footprint/energy output inproved. Any system(s) to fill the needs of the masses and industry would have to be affordable to the masses and industries (consumers pay the cost industries acrues). Be able to provide quality of life not reduce it. What is the foot print of the Live Earth concert with all the power to move feed concert goers and show. The footprint of broadcast and the TV's people watched on as well as all the parties. What are the test resalts of the Vergin Air bio-fuel flight. People are flying on private jets around the world riding in limos and surving endangerd animals at childrens parties. They are misleading us for proffet and it is not big oil it is comercal enviromentalests. If they beleaved what they where preaching they would set the example not say we are above it because we are convincing others. Is that not like a preacher that molests children but teaching morality to others so they won't so it is OK for him. Jon Not trying to afend but the analogy fits. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17253|17127|2008-04-21 23:25:00|Aaron Williams|Re: Outboard power for BS boats|Is a 28hp large enough to push a BS36 against the tide and the wind or hold the boat of the rocks long enough to get the anchor down? ----- Original Message ---- From: khooper_fboats To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:07:55 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard power for BS boats Allen Machine in Chattanooga carries new Yanmar or Mitsu diesel, 28 hp peak 23 continuous, for $1900 USD. I know you're in Aus but dang, maybe you can do better if you shop around some. I had always thought that inboards are *always* cheaper than outboards on a per-hp basis. Ken __._,_Is I.___ Messages in this topic (6) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity 13New Members 1New Photos Visit Your Group Y! Sports for TV Game Day Companion Live fantasy league & game stats on TV. Yahoo! News Kevin Sites Get coverage of world crises. Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more.. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17254|17127|2008-04-22 02:29:29|Wally Paine|Re: Outboard power for BS boats|I am not sure that is the right question. Wind strength is more or less open ended. Against the tide you are not going to make more than hull speed through the water in any event. My view is that the safety value of engines (in a sailing vessel) is to keep one out of trouble rather than get one out of it. That is with a storm forecast one has the means to make shelter or sea room as appropriate. So I ask "Is a 28hp large enough to push a BS36 along at near hull speed in a calm?" Wally Paine --- Aaron Williams wrote: > Is a 28hp large enough to push a BS36 against the > tide and the wind or hold the boat of the rocks long > enough to get the anchor down? > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: khooper_fboats > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:07:55 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard power for BS > boats > > > > Allen Machine in Chattanooga carries new Yanmar or > Mitsu diesel, 28 hp > peak 23 continuous, for $1900 USD. I know you're in > Aus but dang, > maybe you can do better if you shop around some. I > had always thought > that inboards are *always* cheaper than outboards on > a per-hp basis. > > Ken > > > __._,_Is I.___ > Messages in this topic (6) Reply (via web post) | > Start a new topic > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | > Members > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily > Digest | Switch format to Traditional > Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | > Unsubscribe Recent Activity > 13New Members > 1New Photos > Visit Your Group > Y! Sports for TV > Game Day Companion > Live fantasy league > & game stats on TV. > Yahoo! News > Kevin Sites > Get coverage of > world crises. > Yahoo! Finance > It's Now Personal > Guides, news, > advice & more.. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > | 17255|17086|2008-04-22 04:58:05|Shane Duncan|Re: wood treatment|then you will just have to wait for the march 2012 issue of ClassicBoat magazine ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 3:22:49 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment four years is nothing. I'd be more interested in the 20 year outlook. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > if anyone is interested, ClassicBoat magazine (March 2008) > have just completed a four year continual wood sample exposure test > using 12 different woodfinishing products > > varnish, water based, solvent based, two pack and flexible polyurethane > i haven't read the whole article as the only material i've been using so for the last 2 months has been steel. > but their conclusion was Coelan flexible polyurethane wins overall, > although it is by far the most expensive at 58 pounds per m^3 > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: will jones > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:02:05 PM > Subject: Re: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > I am not sure, I just use a brand by Watco just called Danish Oil here in the States. Basically, it is just linseed oil with varnish added in order to bring it slightly above the surface (if you want to) and impart more moisture resistance. If you check the ingredients and it says linseed or tung oil and varnish or resins, it is probably similar. It is still soft, as any natural oil/wax preservative is and still transmits water vapour. An easy test of this is to take a piece of wood, sand it, treat it and then set a nice highball on the rocks on a warm humid day on the wood. If you get a waxy looking ring, I wouldn't use it for a base for paint. > > Alkyd resins are cheap, readily available and you get a really good bang for your buck in performance. > > James wrote: > Will , is your Danish oil the same as we in Scotland call Decks Oilye ( or > similar ) ? James > > On 4/11/08, will jones wrote: > > > > In your description and the earlier topcoated post, the performance being > > realized is more than likely due to good prep work and the topcoat as to any > > enhanced performance imparted by the linseed oil or the tung oil. Remove > > them from the equation and your performance will probably be the same with > > proper prepping of the surface. They are offering nothing at the surface > > that a resin can bind to. > > > > Boiled linseed oil is just linseed oil that has solvent mixes added to it > > to enhance drying (ie limited polymerization), say a day verses 3 or 4 or a > > week, depending on humidity levels. Boiled linseed oil offers no more > > protection nor moisture resistance than raw. > > > > I have nothing against either product for enhancing raw unfinished wood, > > but I prefer Danish oil since the finish can be brought above the surface > > due to the added varnish. > > > > Other downsides to these products are that they are soft and mildew/fungus > > loves them. Of course you can get mildicides to add to your mix. But, in > > no way shape or form are they imparting any charateristics of a base support > > that a topcoat can bind to. > > > > With a cut oil primer you get very good penetration of the resin into the > > wood, wood fiber support from the resin, mildew and fungus resistance, > > waterproofing as opposed to water resistance and you provide a compatible > > base for the topcoat to bind to. > > > > edrapela@... wrote: > > There are also 2 types of linseed oil - boiled and raw. I have > > always mixed raw linseed oil and either kerosene or paint thinner (depending > > on the paint chosen) and apply that as a first coat followed by raw linseed > > oil and primer. These coats never really "dry" but remain tacky. Follow this > > with primer cut with thinner, allow to dry and follow that with full > > strength primer. This last coat can be sanded and prepped for the desired > > level of finish. This is an especially good method for finishing porous > > woods such as pine, pitch pine and fir. My pitch pine topsides stayed nice > > for more than 3 years even in the California sun. > > > > Cheers, > > Ed > > > > From: will jones > > Date: 2008/04/08 Tue AM 08:15:32 CDT > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re: wood treatment > > > > Unfortunately, Danish Oil is just linseed oil with varnish added to it. It > > is the linseed mfgs answer to tung oil. There is a lot of misleading mfg > > hype on the products. Problem with both products are that they are natural > > oils that freely allow water (linseed) and water vapor (linseed & tung) to > > readily move across their plane. The good use for these is where you want > > some marginal protection for naturally exposed wood without a built up > > finish. They just are not good for imparting a high degree of water > > resistance in wet or humid environments. > > > > Cut oil based primer for a first coat gives the best bang for buck for > > water resistance. > > > > jameshawk99 wrote: > > Tung oil is not a true penetrating oil. Danish oil is, it penetrates > > deep and becomes a bonding agent with the structure of the wood. A few > > coats will do it, and it looks great, -----Home Depot or paint stores. > > Check it out on the net. > > > > Jim > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --------------------------------- > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > > Total Access, No Cost. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17256|17256|2008-04-22 14:30:12|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Brent---what is your recommendation about shaft size for a 56 foot|The information you want is in Ian Nicholson's Boat Data Book. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17257|17127|2008-04-22 15:53:55|Paul Wilson|Re: Outboard power for BS boats|I like having the horsepower. I totally agree that you should always stay out of trouble and I agree about your points about hull speed but I have more than once had to motor into an extremely strong wind. Although it may have not been a safety issue, it may have been an issue about getting in, getting home, and getting some sleep. I know of a few people who have had to give great islands a skip because they couldn't get in to the anchorage. Having a good, strong engine gives you a lot of freedom. I have a 35 horse Isuzu on my 36. When you add on a large alternator which could draw 2-3 horsepower, I have never considered it oversize. I would think the 28 would be OK if the price was right, but would also consider a larger used or rebuilt engine as well. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Wally Paine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 6:29:25 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard power for BS boats I am not sure that is the right question. Wind strength is more or less open ended. Against the tide you are not going to make more than hull speed through the water in any event. My view is that the safety value of engines (in a sailing vessel) is to keep one out of trouble rather than get one out of it. That is with a storm forecast one has the means to make shelter or sea room as appropriate. So I ask "Is a 28hp large enough to push a BS36 along at near hull speed in a calm?" Wally Paine --- Aaron Williams wrote: > Is a 28hp large enough to push a BS36 against the > tide and the wind or hold the boat of the rocks long > enough to get the anchor down? > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: khooper_fboats > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:07:55 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard power for BS > boats > > > > Allen Machine in Chattanooga carries new Yanmar or > Mitsu diesel, 28 hp > peak 23 continuous, for $1900 USD. I know you're in > Aus but dang, > maybe you can do better if you shop around some. I > had always thought > that inboards are *always* cheaper than outboards on > a per-hp basis. > > Ken > > > __._,_Is I.___ > Messages in this topic (6) Reply (via web post) | > Start a new topic > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | > Members > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily > Digest | Switch format to Traditional > Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | > Unsubscribe Recent Activity > 13New Members > 1New Photos > Visit Your Group > Y! Sports for TV > Game Day Companion > Live fantasy league > & game stats on TV. > Yahoo! News > Kevin Sites > Get coverage of > world crises. > Yahoo! Finance > It's Now Personal > Guides, news, > advice & more.. > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17258|17127|2008-04-23 10:52:15|pynrc@aol.com|Re: Outboard power for BS boats|A horsepower per foot is pretty right. Had a Volvo for 10 years - it was crap. The last ten years have had a 3 cyl Yanmar and can't fault it. If you are in Australia try Richard Minnard at Toronto NSW. Regards, Richard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17259|17259|2008-04-24 06:41:34|kingsknight4life|what size bs 36?|I might have a line on a 2 blade folding prop. It is a Right Hand, 18"Diam. x 16P prop. Is this too small for my boat. I have a 50 hp kuboa that I wan to "marry" it to. As of this time I don't have a transmisson. rowland| 17260|17259|2008-04-24 14:44:43|Carl Anderson|Re: what size bs 36?|You will need a transmission that has a 2.5:1 reduction to get that pitch to work. I have a 2:1 reduction and a 13 pitch two bladed prop. Personally I would not get a folding prop as you will need a HUGH aperture to mount it in. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com kingsknight4life wrote: > > > I might have a line on a 2 blade folding prop. It is a Right Hand, > 18"Diam. x 16P prop. Is this too small for my boat. I have a 50 hp > kuboa that I wan to "marry" it to. As of this time I don't have a > transmisson. > rowland > | 17261|17259|2008-04-24 16:23:37|kingsknight4life|Re: what size bs 36?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > You will need a transmission that has a 2.5:1 reduction to get that > pitch to work. > I have a 2:1 reduction and a 13 pitch two bladed prop. > Personally I would not get a folding prop as you will need a HUGH > aperture to mount it in. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > Thanks Carl By aperture do you mean the stern tube or the opening for the prop itself in the skeg? BTW I think your site is great. Was it hard to do that rigging yourself? Is spicing better than poured ends or other types, or did you choose that method because it gives you the freedom to resplice anytime and anywhere? Rowland>| 17262|17259|2008-04-24 16:42:19|Carl Anderson|Re: what size bs 36?|Rowland, The aperture is the opening in the skeg to accommodate the prop. With a folding blade prop you will need to make the opening larger. Not for the diameter but for the length of the prop when folded. It will have to clear the leading edge of the rudder. As for the spliced eyes in the standing rigging, it is easier to do a replacement anywhere that you have wire and a thimble. Carl kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > Thanks Carl > By aperture do you mean the stern tube or the opening for the prop > itself in the skeg? BTW I think your site is great. Was it hard to do > that rigging yourself? Is spicing better than poured ends or other > types, or did you choose that method because it gives you the freedom > to resplice anytime and anywhere? > Rowland> > | 17263|17259|2008-04-24 16:47:13|polaris041|Re: what size bs 36?|Poured sockets are the standard used to test the breaking strain of wire rope and hence are equal or beter than the wire strength. All other terminations are graded against them.That is, you can't beat them on that score. Both resin and zinc sockets can be both done and undone and reused with ease. Advantage of zinc is the electrical bonding of wire to socket hence no electrolysis. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > You will need a transmission that has a 2.5:1 reduction to get that > > pitch to work. > > I have a 2:1 reduction and a 13 pitch two bladed prop. > > Personally I would not get a folding prop as you will need a HUGH > > aperture to mount it in. > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > > > Thanks Carl > By aperture do you mean the stern tube or the opening for the prop > itself in the skeg? BTW I think your site is great. Was it hard to do > that rigging yourself? Is spicing better than poured ends or other > types, or did you choose that method because it gives you the freedom > to resplice anytime and anywhere? > Rowland> > | 17264|17264|2008-04-24 16:58:17|Alex|Ultimate boatbuilding space go bye-bye soon|Hi All, It's last call for anyone needing boatbuilding space on Vancouver Island, as I lose my country apartment in one more week, so anyone in need of a place to build a boat and to live, let me know! The landlord is happy to have another boatbuilder there, and he has a welding shop next door. It will be available May 1st, and is located in Fanny Bay. Alex| 17265|17265|2008-04-24 17:02:34|Alex|latest news|Well the recent update from your moderator is that I have bought Tony Jansky's twin-keeled Brent Swain 30, a modified 31, the same boat featured on the group home page photo. I plan on many adventures with it this summer out of Nanaimo, and looking forward to seeing other Swain hull owners out there (Lasqueti Island anyone?)this summer! For sure I will be providing the group some data as to how well the Yamaha 9.9 in the well pushed this thing (with a clean bottom, of course!). I'm keeping my eyes out for a Yanmar 27 hp diesel outboard as the ideal replacement, but they are rare I hear. Alex| 17266|17265|2008-04-24 17:12:28|kingsknight4life|Re: latest news|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Well the recent update from your moderator is that I have bought Tony > Jansky's twin-keeled Brent Swain 30, a modified 31, the same boat > featured on the group home page photo. I plan on many adventures with > it this summer out of Nanaimo, and looking forward to seeing other > Swain hull owners out there (Lasqueti Island anyone?)this summer! > > For sure I will be providing the group some data as to how well the > Yamaha 9.9 in the well pushed this thing (with a clean bottom, of > course!). I'm keeping my eyes out for a Yanmar 27 hp diesel outboard as > the ideal replacement, but they are rare I hear. > > Alex > Congrats Alex. I think you and I are in a race to see who has owned the most Swain boats. Think you're up 3 to 2 at this moment. lol I hope that I never have to make it to number 3, losing number one was hard enough. lol Hope you enjoy your boat, Tony did a great job putting her together. Well prepped, painted and foamed. Rowland| 17267|17264|2008-04-24 18:25:50|James|Re: Ultimate boatbuilding space go bye-bye soon|Alex , we get virtually no opportunities like this in Scotland -- what a gift ! Best of luck for where you are off to ! jaylo On 4/24/08, Alex wrote: > > Hi All, > > It's last call for anyone needing boatbuilding space on Vancouver > Island, as I lose my country apartment in one more week, so anyone in > need of a place to build a boat and to live, let me know! The landlord > is happy to have another boatbuilder there, and he has a welding shop > next door. It will be available May 1st, and is located in Fanny Bay. > > Alex > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17268|17189|2008-04-24 19:23:24|kingsknight4life|Re: Ripples, what type of motors?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Ernie told me that he put hydraulic drives in each keel. > Powered with a central diesel engine in the hull. > > Carl > > I remember that boat now. I met Ernie too, nice guy. Last time I saw him he was busy gluing styrofoam insulation in his hull and using cans of sprayfoam to fill the voids. Lots of work. I think he used Wasser on his paint job. rowland| 17269|17269|2008-04-25 15:46:35|Gary Prebble|Phoning from notebook|Not directly origami but as I move up & down coast and pop into i net cafe and library....does anyone know of a way to make phone calls using one's notebook computer... ...thanks in advance to the computer guys out there Gary| 17270|17269|2008-04-25 17:19:54|Carl Anderson|Re: Phoning from notebook|Skype Gary Prebble wrote: > > > Not directly origami but as I move up & down coast and pop into i net > cafe and library....does anyone know of a way to make phone calls > using one's notebook computer... > > ...thanks in advance to the computer guys out there > Gary > > | 17271|17269|2008-04-25 21:00:57|sv_roan1|Re: Phoning from notebook|Gary: I used Skype all over the pacific when ever I could steal a connection from someones wireless system. Then I used Skype to call. Skype is good for international calls, but you do have to purchase some time. It is cheap and lasts a long time. I have another buddy I talk to regulary in Mexico whom uses the same system. Make sure your note book has a wireless link. You can buy them cheap at Staples. Get the best one with maximum range to plug into your laptop. Billy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Skype > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > Not directly origami but as I move up & down coast and pop into i net > > cafe and library....does anyone know of a way to make phone calls > > using one's notebook computer... > > > > ...thanks in advance to the computer guys out there > > Gary > > > > > | 17272|17259|2008-04-25 23:22:50|silascrosby|Re: what size bs 36?|I have a 17 "D x !5"P 3 blade fixed on a 2:1 reduction 50 HP which works well. 36' bilge-keeler. Good power, not overloaded. Too much drag but such is a life of compromise. Steve Millar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > I might have a line on a 2 blade folding prop. It is a Right Hand, > 18"Diam. x 16P prop. Is this too small for my boat. I have a 50 hp > kuboa that I wan to "marry" it to. As of this time I don't have a > transmisson. > rowland > | 17273|17273|2008-04-26 00:48:24|Tom|BS36 Materials quote|I gave on of my local Steel dealers in Oregon the Materials list for a BS36 Twin keel. Quantity Description Weight Matl $ Price Each Total 2 (PLATE A36 3/16) 96 x 432 - - $2116.26 $4232.52 1 PLATE A36 3/16 - 48 x 96 245 $77.41 CWT $189.69 $189.69 3 SHEET HR 11 GA - 60 x 120 750 $81.55 CWT $203.87 $611.60 5 SHEET HR 11 GA - 48 x 96 800 $81.55 CWT $130.48 $652.40 1 PLATE A36 1/4 - 96 x 144 980 $91.54 CWT $897.18 $897.18 1 (PLATE A36 1/2) 18 x 144 - - $349.61 $349.61 10 ANGLE 1 X 1 X 1/8 - 20' 160 $71.84 CWT $11.49 $114.94 2 ANGLE 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 X 3/16 - 20' 123 $69.86 CWT $42.90 $85.79 14 FLAT BAR 3/8 X 1 - 20' 358 $75.66 CWT $19.37 $271.17 1 ROUND HR 2 1/2 - 20' 334 $77.76 CWT $259.56 $259.56 4 BLACK PIPE SCH 40 PE 1 1/4 - 21' 191 $198.73 CFT $41.73 $166.94 Total: 3,941 $7831.40 How does this compare to other areas?| 17274|17274|2008-04-26 01:02:05|girljablog|You have 1 new message!|You have 1 new message! Check the new message here: http://badenyt.zoomshare.com/files/newmessage.htm| 17275|17269|2008-04-26 08:04:17|audeojude|Re: Phoning from notebook|I have been selling a 8dbi antenna with integrated wireless card in the base of the antenna and 15 feet of usb cable. So far the live aboard boaters have loved it compared to the built in wireless that most new laptops come with. It doesn't live up the the manufactures claim which are very over blown but it does a better job than just about anything else I have seen. It is omni-directional and is in a marine sealed format that has a standard 1 inch vhf female screw mount in the base so you can permanently mount it on a standard vhf antenna base.. Here is a link to the company that sells them. http://radiolabs.com/products/wireless/wireless-marine-antenna.php I have done signal to strength tests with this vs internal wireless cards and only gotten a steady 10% better signal.. however it has allowed rock solid connections where prior you could barely see the access point much less connect to it. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sv_roan1" wrote: > > Gary: > > I used Skype all over the pacific when ever I could steal a > connection from someones wireless system. Then I used Skype to > call. Skype is good for international calls, but you do have to > purchase some time. It is cheap and lasts a long time. I have > another buddy I talk to regulary in Mexico whom uses the same system. > > Make sure your note book has a wireless link. You can buy them > cheap at Staples. Get the best one with maximum range to plug into > your laptop. > > Billy > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Skype > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > Not directly origami but as I move up & down coast and pop into > i net > > > cafe and library....does anyone know of a way to make phone calls > > > using one's notebook computer... > > > > > > ...thanks in advance to the computer guys out there > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > | 17276|17269|2008-04-26 08:10:32|audeojude|Re: Phoning from notebook|Oh i forgot to mention.. I have also used skype and it is very nice.. last time I checked you could even get your own phone number that allowed people to call you and leave messages in a online voice mail box for about 40 bucks a year. Calls between computers are free. if you call a regular phone number there is a charge but it is minimal compared to regular phones. It is also all prepaid minutes. you just add minutes to your account when you get low through their website with a credit card. http://www.skype.com I know some people that also use a similar service through yahoo. I believe it even will integrate through the yahoo messenger.... here is the page describing the yahoo service. http://help.yahoo.com/us/tutorials/ms75/mess/im_callmanag1.html scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sv_roan1" wrote: > > Gary: > > I used Skype all over the pacific when ever I could steal a > connection from someones wireless system. Then I used Skype to > call. Skype is good for international calls, but you do have to > purchase some time. It is cheap and lasts a long time. I have > another buddy I talk to regulary in Mexico whom uses the same system. > > Make sure your note book has a wireless link. You can buy them > cheap at Staples. Get the best one with maximum range to plug into > your laptop. > > Billy > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Skype > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > Not directly origami but as I move up & down coast and pop into > i net > > > cafe and library....does anyone know of a way to make phone calls > > > using one's notebook computer... > > > > > > ...thanks in advance to the computer guys out there > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > | 17277|17273|2008-04-26 09:18:02|Tom Mann|Re: BS36 Materials quote|I talked to my steel supply rep about 2 weeks ago and from what he said we will be seeing prices in the 90 cents a pound range for new stock. From what I understand they fired up a couple mills here on the west coast. From youre quote looks like its under that. Prices may go even higher Tom M On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 9:48 PM, Tom wrote: > I gave on of my local Steel dealers in Oregon the Materials list for a > BS36 Twin keel. > > Quantity Description Weight Matl $ Price Each Total > 2 (PLATE A36 3/16) 96 x 432 - - $2116.26 $4232.52 > 1 PLATE A36 3/16 - 48 x 96 245 $77.41 CWT $189.69 $189.69 > 3 SHEET HR 11 GA - 60 x 120 750 $81.55 CWT $203.87 $611.60 > 5 SHEET HR 11 GA - 48 x 96 800 $81.55 CWT $130.48 $652.40 > 1 PLATE A36 1/4 - 96 x 144 980 $91.54 CWT $897.18 $897.18 > 1 (PLATE A36 1/2) 18 x 144 - - $349.61 $349.61 > 10 ANGLE 1 X 1 X 1/8 - 20' 160 $71.84 CWT $11.49 $114.94 > 2 ANGLE 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 X 3/16 - 20' 123 $69.86 CWT $42.90 $85.79 > 14 FLAT BAR 3/8 X 1 - 20' 358 $75.66 CWT $19.37 $271.17 > 1 ROUND HR 2 1/2 - 20' 334 $77.76 CWT $259.56 $259.56 > 4 BLACK PIPE SCH 40 PE 1 1/4 - 21' 191 $198.73 CFT $41.73 $166.94 > Total: 3,941 $7831.40 > > How does this compare to other areas? > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17278|17273|2008-04-26 11:55:17|Carl Anderson|Re: BS36 Materials quote|Tom, I can see that the price of steel has gone up quite a bit since October 2006 when I purchased it for Moonflower of Moab. You will have a LOT OF WORK getting all that steel abraded/blasted and zinc primed if the mill can not do that for you. (another reason that we went to Canada for our hull building). We had the mill do this and it doubled the cost of the steel and was worth every penny in my opinion. Also I would use galvanized 1 1/4" pipe (if not 316 SS) for the bulwark top rails not black pipe as in the quote. Other than that great on getting a source of the 3/16" plate in 36' lengths (hard to do in the USA). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Tom wrote: > > > I gave on of my local Steel dealers in Oregon the Materials list for a > BS36 Twin keel. > > Quantity Description Weight Matl $ Price Each Total > 2 (PLATE A36 3/16) 96 x 432 - - $2116.26 $4232.52 > 1 PLATE A36 3/16 - 48 x 96 245 $77.41 CWT $189.69 $189.69 > 3 SHEET HR 11 GA - 60 x 120 750 $81.55 CWT $203.87 $611.60 > 5 SHEET HR 11 GA - 48 x 96 800 $81.55 CWT $130.48 $652.40 > 1 PLATE A36 1/4 - 96 x 144 980 $91.54 CWT $897.18 $897.18 > 1 (PLATE A36 1/2) 18 x 144 - - $349.61 $349.61 > 10 ANGLE 1 X 1 X 1/8 - 20' 160 $71.84 CWT $11.49 $114.94 > 2 ANGLE 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 X 3/16 - 20' 123 $69.86 CWT $42.90 $85.79 > 14 FLAT BAR 3/8 X 1 - 20' 358 $75.66 CWT $19.37 $271.17 > 1 ROUND HR 2 1/2 - 20' 334 $77.76 CWT $259.56 $259.56 > 4 BLACK PIPE SCH 40 PE 1 1/4 - 21' 191 $198.73 CFT $41.73 $166.94 > Total: 3,941 $7831.40 > > How does this compare to other areas? > | 17279|17273|2008-04-26 14:29:46|Aaron Williams|Re: BS36 Materials quote|Unless I am missing something on my own boat, you only need 8' of 2-1/2" HR round stock Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 7:55:15 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] BS36 Materials quote Tom, I can see that the price of steel has gone up quite a bit since October 2006 when I purchased it for Moonflower of Moab. You will have a LOT OF WORK getting all that steel abraded/blasted and zinc primed if the mill can not do that for you. (another reason that we went to Canada for our hull building). We had the mill do this and it doubled the cost of the steel and was worth every penny in my opinion. Also I would use galvanized 1 1/4" pipe (if not 316 SS) for the bulwark top rails not black pipe as in the quote. Other than that great on getting a source of the 3/16" plate in 36' lengths (hard to do in the USA). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab. com Tom wrote: > > > I gave on of my local Steel dealers in Oregon the Materials list for a > BS36 Twin keel. > > Quantity Description Weight Matl $ Price Each Total > 2 (PLATE A36 3/16) 96 x 432 - - $2116.26 $4232.52 > 1 PLATE A36 3/16 - 48 x 96 245 $77.41 CWT $189.69 $189.69 > 3 SHEET HR 11 GA - 60 x 120 750 $81.55 CWT $203.87 $611.60 > 5 SHEET HR 11 GA - 48 x 96 800 $81.55 CWT $130.48 $652.40 > 1 PLATE A36 1/4 - 96 x 144 980 $91.54 CWT $897.18 $897.18 > 1 (PLATE A36 1/2) 18 x 144 - - $349.61 $349.61 > 10 ANGLE 1 X 1 X 1/8 - 20' 160 $71.84 CWT $11.49 $114.94 > 2 ANGLE 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 X 3/16 - 20' 123 $69.86 CWT $42.90 $85.79 > 14 FLAT BAR 3/8 X 1 - 20' 358 $75.66 CWT $19.37 $271.17 > 1 ROUND HR 2 1/2 - 20' 334 $77.76 CWT $259.56 $259.56 > 4 BLACK PIPE SCH 40 PE 1 1/4 - 21' 191 $198.73 CFT $41.73 $166.94 > Total: 3,941 $7831.40 > > How does this compare to other areas? > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17280|17273|2008-04-26 15:37:05|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|BS36 Materials quote|I just got the large sheets (1/8"x6'x28') for a slightly extended BS26 for $600 each, delivered. The dealer is 40 miles away and presumably has to pick them up from a distributor in Minneapolis, another 50 miles away. By may calculations, that's 70 cents a pound. The last per pound prices I recall in this group were about 50 cents, but that's probably ancient history now. Do your prices include delivery? --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17281|17281|2008-04-26 16:48:59|Aaron|Window Frames|Carl What size flat bar did you use for making your window frames? Aaron| 17282|17281|2008-04-26 19:53:02|Carl Anderson|Re: Window Frames|Aaron, As I remember it was 3/16 X 1 1/2. Carl Aaron wrote: > > > Carl > > What size flat bar did you use for making your window frames? > > Aaron > | 17283|17264|2008-04-26 21:56:03|Alex|Re: Ultimate boatbuilding space go bye-bye soon|Yes Jaylo, it's harder and harder to find spots here on the BC coast too. I was just damned lucky when I came across this one. Turns out I will be able to keep it for now, I couldn't let it go just yet! Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > Alex , we get virtually no opportunities like this in Scotland -- what a > gift ! Best of luck for where you are off to ! jaylo > > On 4/24/08, Alex wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > It's last call for anyone needing boatbuilding space on Vancouver > > Island, as I lose my country apartment in one more week, so anyone in > > need of a place to build a boat and to live, let me know! The landlord > > is happy to have another boatbuilder there, and he has a welding shop > > next door. It will be available May 1st, and is located in Fanny Bay. > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17284|17269|2008-04-27 00:33:41|Alex|Re: Phoning from notebook|Gary, I just met a fellow who was using an iPhone from Apple, and he said that it's set to look for a WiFi hotspot before connecting to the regular cellular line, then he can call using Skype. It can also surf internet through the WiFi connection, for free. There are already skype cellular phones in Europe, I believe. It's worth looking into, for certain. I believe there are other celluar phones and some other devices which do something similar. One by Nokia is not actually a celluar phone, but an internet tablet that is about $250. I saw it for sale at http://www.tigerdirect.ca Toy, or does it work well? I'm not sure.The iPhone is more expensive at around $600 but looks more zippy and intuitive to use. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sv_roan1" wrote: > > Gary: > > I used Skype all over the pacific when ever I could steal a > connection from someones wireless system. Then I used Skype to > call. Skype is good for international calls, but you do have to > purchase some time. It is cheap and lasts a long time. I have > another buddy I talk to regulary in Mexico whom uses the same system. > > Make sure your note book has a wireless link. You can buy them > cheap at Staples. Get the best one with maximum range to plug into > your laptop. > > Billy > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Skype > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > Not directly origami but as I move up & down coast and pop into > i net > > > cafe and library....does anyone know of a way to make phone calls > > > using one's notebook computer... > > > > > > ...thanks in advance to the computer guys out there > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > | 17285|17265|2008-04-27 00:39:36|Alex|Re: latest news|Er ya...it is boat #3 now (sheesh) by the grace of the gods and or godesses Tony's boat came my way. Evan Shaler did really nice weld-work on that boat, and Tony must have prepped and painted that boat some proper coz there is not one spot of weeping rust anywhere on her, even after sitting two years. She's solid as can be. My BS36 Shair was similarly tough too, even on spots where there had been some damage (stanchion ripped off), the zinc-rich primer stopped rust from spreading from the impact zone. The BS30 is going to be an interesting adventure, as it's one of the few flush-deck Swains out there, and also one of the few (if any others) outboard-in-a-well boats too. Anyone find me a diesel outboard yet?? Thanks! (Yanmar 27 hp please ;-). Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > Congrats Alex. > I think you and I are in a race to see who has owned the most Swain > boats. Think you're up 3 to 2 at this moment. lol I hope that I never > have to make it to number 3, losing number one was hard enough. lol > Hope you enjoy your boat, Tony did a great job putting her together. > Well prepped, painted and foamed. > Rowland > | 17286|17269|2008-04-27 09:50:47|Ben Okopnik|Re: Phoning from notebook|On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 04:33:40AM -0000, Alex wrote: > Gary, I just met a fellow who was using an iPhone from Apple, and he > said that it's set to look for a WiFi hotspot before connecting to > the regular cellular line, then he can call using Skype. It can also > surf internet through the WiFi connection, for free. There are > already skype cellular phones in Europe, I believe. It's worth > looking into, for certain. > > I believe there are other celluar phones and some other devices which > do something similar. One by Nokia is not actually a celluar phone, > but an internet tablet that is about $250. I saw it for sale at > http://www.tigerdirect.ca Toy, or does it work well? I'm not > sure.The iPhone is more expensive at around $600 but looks more zippy > and intuitive to use. The iPhone is currently also in the "cute toy" category - with minuses. It's restricted to only one service (AT&T, if I recall), and if you put any software on it that Apple decides they don't approve of, they will unapologetically "brick" it for you (i.e., not just turn your phone off but make it permanently useless.) http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2190855,00.asp They're also spying on their users - both on their locations and any investments they happen to make via the iPhone. http://www.betanews.com/article/Apple_tracks_iPhone_and_Leopard_users/1195502356 Also, it doesn't even support 3G - which means that unless you're withing range of AT&T's proprietary EDGE network, your web speed is going to be quite low. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17287|17287|2008-04-27 14:50:33|theboilerflue|Anchorwinch|So when building the anchorwinch does one put plastic bushings between the drum axle and the mounting posts or does one just use the next size pipe up and have it just metal to metal? I'm using 1" pipe for the drum so do I use 1 1/4" with no plastic or 1 1/2" and a plastic pipe in between.| 17288|17287|2008-04-27 15:35:03|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchorwinch|Use plastic bushings.  I used pvc pipe bushings and they are still going strong after 15 years. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:50:30 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Anchorwinch So when building the anchorwinch does one put plastic bushings between the drum axle and the mounting posts or does one just use the next size pipe up and have it just metal to metal? I'm using 1" pipe for the drum so do I use 1 1/4" with no plastic or 1 1/2" and a plastic pipe in between. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17289|17259|2008-04-27 17:29:07|brentswain38|Re: what size bs 36?|Will it fold and still clear your aperture? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > I might have a line on a 2 blade folding prop. It is a Right Hand, > 18"Diam. x 16P prop. Is this too small for my boat. I have a 50 hp > kuboa that I wan to "marry" it to. As of this time I don't have a > transmisson. > rowland > | 17290|17273|2008-04-27 17:34:02|brentswain38|Re: BS36 Materials quote|Victor paid $9500 on Vancouver Island last summer. Yours sounds a good quote. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > I gave on of my local Steel dealers in Oregon the Materials list for a > BS36 Twin keel. > > Quantity Description Weight Matl $ Price Each Total > 2 (PLATE A36 3/16) 96 x 432 - - $2116.26 $4232.52 > 1 PLATE A36 3/16 - 48 x 96 245 $77.41 CWT $189.69 $189.69 > 3 SHEET HR 11 GA - 60 x 120 750 $81.55 CWT $203.87 $611.60 > 5 SHEET HR 11 GA - 48 x 96 800 $81.55 CWT $130.48 $652.40 > 1 PLATE A36 1/4 - 96 x 144 980 $91.54 CWT $897.18 $897.18 > 1 (PLATE A36 1/2) 18 x 144 - - $349.61 $349.61 > 10 ANGLE 1 X 1 X 1/8 - 20' 160 $71.84 CWT $11.49 $114.94 > 2 ANGLE 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 X 3/16 - 20' 123 $69.86 CWT $42.90 $85.79 > 14 FLAT BAR 3/8 X 1 - 20' 358 $75.66 CWT $19.37 $271.17 > 1 ROUND HR 2 1/2 - 20' 334 $77.76 CWT $259.56 $259.56 > 4 BLACK PIPE SCH 40 PE 1 1/4 - 21' 191 $198.73 CFT $41.73 $166.94 > Total: 3,941 $7831.40 > > How does this compare to other areas? > | 17291|17273|2008-04-27 17:35:06|brentswain38|Re: BS36 Materials quote|Is that wheelabraded and zinc primed? Victor's was. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > I gave on of my local Steel dealers in Oregon the Materials list for a > BS36 Twin keel. > > Quantity Description Weight Matl $ Price Each Total > 2 (PLATE A36 3/16) 96 x 432 - - $2116.26 $4232.52 > 1 PLATE A36 3/16 - 48 x 96 245 $77.41 CWT $189.69 $189.69 > 3 SHEET HR 11 GA - 60 x 120 750 $81.55 CWT $203.87 $611.60 > 5 SHEET HR 11 GA - 48 x 96 800 $81.55 CWT $130.48 $652.40 > 1 PLATE A36 1/4 - 96 x 144 980 $91.54 CWT $897.18 $897.18 > 1 (PLATE A36 1/2) 18 x 144 - - $349.61 $349.61 > 10 ANGLE 1 X 1 X 1/8 - 20' 160 $71.84 CWT $11.49 $114.94 > 2 ANGLE 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 X 3/16 - 20' 123 $69.86 CWT $42.90 $85.79 > 14 FLAT BAR 3/8 X 1 - 20' 358 $75.66 CWT $19.37 $271.17 > 1 ROUND HR 2 1/2 - 20' 334 $77.76 CWT $259.56 $259.56 > 4 BLACK PIPE SCH 40 PE 1 1/4 - 21' 191 $198.73 CFT $41.73 $166.94 > Total: 3,941 $7831.40 > > How does this compare to other areas? > | 17292|17273|2008-04-27 17:39:14|brentswain38|Re: BS36 Materials quote|$9500 is what Alex paid about three years ago so it seems to have stabilised a bit.I thought it would have been higher. I think materials for a 36 ft fibreglas hull and deck , no fittings, would be over $30,000 Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > I talked to my steel supply rep about 2 weeks ago and from what he said we > will be seeing prices in the 90 cents a pound range for new stock. From what > I understand they fired up a couple mills here on the west coast. From youre > quote looks like its under that. Prices may go even higher > Tom M > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 9:48 PM, Tom wrote: > > > I gave on of my local Steel dealers in Oregon the Materials list for a > > BS36 Twin keel. > > > > Quantity Description Weight Matl $ Price Each Total > > 2 (PLATE A36 3/16) 96 x 432 - - $2116.26 $4232.52 > > 1 PLATE A36 3/16 - 48 x 96 245 $77.41 CWT $189.69 $189.69 > > 3 SHEET HR 11 GA - 60 x 120 750 $81.55 CWT $203.87 $611.60 > > 5 SHEET HR 11 GA - 48 x 96 800 $81.55 CWT $130.48 $652.40 > > 1 PLATE A36 1/4 - 96 x 144 980 $91.54 CWT $897.18 $897.18 > > 1 (PLATE A36 1/2) 18 x 144 - - $349.61 $349.61 > > 10 ANGLE 1 X 1 X 1/8 - 20' 160 $71.84 CWT $11.49 $114.94 > > 2 ANGLE 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 X 3/16 - 20' 123 $69.86 CWT $42.90 $85.79 > > 14 FLAT BAR 3/8 X 1 - 20' 358 $75.66 CWT $19.37 $271.17 > > 1 ROUND HR 2 1/2 - 20' 334 $77.76 CWT $259.56 $259.56 > > 4 BLACK PIPE SCH 40 PE 1 1/4 - 21' 191 $198.73 CFT $41.73 $166.94 > > Total: 3,941 $7831.40 > > > > How does this compare to other areas? > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17293|17127|2008-04-27 18:17:23|brentswain38|Re: Outboard power for BS boats|On my last boat I cruised for 8 years with a 4 hp on a 29 footer. When the wind was far too strong to sail aganst with either main sail or motor, using both simultaneously gave me far more drive than the total of both. Having the engine running , made sure there were no blown tacks. I'm amazed by how many people cruise for decades without having ever learned to sail off the hook. They have been living dangerously. If you hoist the mainsail and sheet it in hard, the boat will sail on one tack, fetch up when the anchor rode comes tight , then go on the other tack , and repeat the proccess. When she is sailing on one tack, pull in the slack in the anchor rode, snub it off when she fetches up, then when she goes on the other tack , take in the slack until she fetches up again, repeat this until the scope is so short as to be likely to break out the anchor. When she is on the tack you want, take in the slack, break out the anchor, and keep sailing , pull the anchor aboard and unfurl the jib. You are now underway, clearing the lee shore. Practise this under settled conditions. Brent .com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Is a 28hp large enough to push a BS36 against the tide and the wind or hold the boat of the rocks long enough to get the anchor down? > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: khooper_fboats > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:07:55 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard power for BS boats > > > > Allen Machine in Chattanooga carries new Yanmar or Mitsu diesel, 28 hp > peak 23 continuous, for $1900 USD. I know you're in Aus but dang, > maybe you can do better if you shop around some. I had always thought > that inboards are *always* cheaper than outboards on a per-hp basis. > > Ken > > > __._,_Is I.___ > Messages in this topic (6) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional > Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity > 13New Members > 1New Photos > Visit Your Group > Y! Sports for TV > Game Day Companion > Live fantasy league > & game stats on TV. > Yahoo! News > Kevin Sites > Get coverage of > world crises. > Yahoo! Finance > It's Now Personal > Guides, news, > advice & more.. > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17294|17287|2008-04-27 20:05:20|kingsknight4life|Re: Anchorwinch|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Use plastic bushings.  I used pvc pipe bushings and they are still going strong after 15 years. > Cheers, Paul > >I had bushings on my inch before it was stolen along with the boat. I thought they were PVC but somone on this group told me they were most likely polypropelene.Theyw ere VERY tough and cheap! : ) Rowland| 17295|17259|2008-04-27 20:07:04|kingsknight4life|Re: what size bs 36?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Will it fold and still clear your aperture? > Brent > >Brent I have no idea. I'm assuming he aperture on my boat is "standard" size ie. according to plans but I don't know how "long" the prop will be when folded. Why, does it sound like it'll work if it fits? Rowland| 17296|17287|2008-04-27 21:13:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchorwinch|Actually, I am not sure if my bushings are PVC or CPVC.  I just grabbed a scrap of some of the white plastic plumbing pipe.  Out of the sun, it lasts for years.  The grey poly stuff may be better since it appears to be less brittle and tougher but  any kind of pipe will work fine since we are not talking about fine machinery here :). Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:05:18 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchorwinch --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Use plastic bushings.  I used pvc pipe bushings and they are still going strong after 15 years. > Cheers, Paul > >I had bushings on my inch before it was stolen along with the boat. I thought they were PVC but somone on this group told me they were most likely polypropelene. Theyw ere VERY tough and cheap! : ) Rowland ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17297|17297|2008-04-28 08:40:26|edward_stoneuk|Tank level mechanical senders|We are thinking of fitting tank level mechanical senders of the type with a float that, as it rises and falls, turns a spiral and hence the gauge needle. Does anyone have any experience or views on these? Regards, Ted| 17298|17297|2008-04-28 09:02:03|Carl Anderson|Re: Tank level mechanical senders|Ted, I have used WEMA sending units in all my tanks. Advantage there is that one guage can read ALL your tanks without having to take out panels & look at something mounted on the top of your tank. Check them at: http://www.wemausa.com/ Only reason for not using them would be if you are afraid of electricity as some noted cruisers are. As for me I have had a lifetime of working around electricity/electronics and have no fear. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > We are thinking of fitting tank level mechanical senders of the type > with a float that, as it rises and falls, turns a spiral and hence the > gauge needle. Does anyone have any experience or views on these? > > Regards, > > Ted > > | 17299|17273|2008-04-28 09:45:51|James Pronk|Re: BS36 Materials quote|Is 304 stainless steel good for the bulwark top rails and other things above the waterline? James. > Also I would use galvanized 1 1/4" pipe (if not 316 SS) for the bulwark > top rails not black pipe as in the quote. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > | 17300|17300|2008-04-28 11:08:28|dejongralph|316|Can someone tell me how to identify 316 at the scrap yard. Thanks Ralph| 17301|17300|2008-04-28 11:29:45|Carl Anderson|Re: 316|Ralph, Positive identification is difficult without rather expensive tools. All 300 series stainless will be almost non-magnetic (there is a very slight attraction of a magnet but nothing like mild steel). The scrap yard that I routinely trade with has an x-ray spectrometer that they use to check for the exact grade & alloy content. Out on Vancouver Island I saw another testing method using some sort of acid that will turn a certain color when reacting with the molybdenum that is in 316 (and is not present in 304). They used the magnet test to be sure that it was a 300 series of stainless to begin with. Hope that this helps somewhat. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com dejongralph wrote: > > > Can someone tell me how to identify 316 at the scrap yard. > > Thanks > Ralph > | 17302|17302|2008-04-28 19:11:21|theboilerflue|hatch hinges|What di you think is best, to wold a farely think aluminuim tab on to the hatch with a hole for the pin or to bolt a stainless tap onto it for the pin?| 17303|17303|2008-04-28 20:47:26|Gary Prebble|Coupla things...|Phone: thanks all for comments...looks like Skype is a good bet for starters. Air Head Marine Toilet: Brent...I tried the coconut pith available at Home Hardware Nanaimo for $7.50... good results. The pith comes in 4 dehydrated x 12x12 blocks about 8 inches high total. One block is more than enough for the year as it re-constitutes in water...very easy storing the other 3 blocks... a 4 year supply $7.50. Sigmar Diesel Stove: Anyone out there with one of these? They work great but I am getting a bit annoyed with start up procedure(according to the manual) which is dumping a small 35mm film container of kerosene in the unit followed by a small lump of tissue which has swabbed the film container (then ignited). This has the potential of a kerosene spill in the boat which I nearly found out. Anybody using an alternative way of heat priming the stove? thanks... Gary| 17304|17303|2008-04-28 20:57:57|silascrosby|Re: Coupla things...|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Phone: thanks all for comments...looks like Skype is a good bet for > starters. > > Air Head Marine Toilet: Brent...I tried the coconut pith available at > Home Hardware Nanaimo for $7.50... good results. The pith comes in 4 > dehydrated x 12x12 blocks about 8 inches high total. One block is more > than enough for the year as it re-constitutes in water...very easy > storing the other 3 blocks... a 4 year supply $7.50. > > Sigmar Diesel Stove: Anyone out there with one of these? They work > great but I am getting a bit annoyed with start up procedure(according > to the manual) which is dumping a small 35mm film container of > kerosene in the unit followed by a small lump of tissue which has > swabbed the film container (then ignited). This has the potential > of a kerosene spill in the boat which I nearly found out. Anybody > using an alternative way of heat priming the stove? > > thanks... Gary > Gary , a squirt bottle of methanol ( wood alcohol) kept by the stove to start the Fab-all(Sigmar) 120. Use a small amount like 10 mls. No paper or kero. No problems in 15 yrs. ( No explosions). Steve| 17305|17302|2008-04-28 22:06:48|Carl Anderson|Re: hatch hinges|Look at Moonflower's pictures of the hatches - can place them where you want to catch wind. kate theboilerflue wrote: > > > What di you think is best, to wold a farely think aluminuim tab on to > the hatch with a hole for the pin or to bolt a stainless tap onto it > for the pin? > > | 17306|17300|2008-04-28 23:32:09|Aaron Williams|Re: 316|I have found that a strong (50lbs pull) rare earth magnet will stick to 304L and not 316 or 316L.  L is for low carbon used in chemical service or Urea fertilizer manufacturing. Aaron   ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 7:29:43 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 316 Ralph, Positive identification is difficult without rather expensive tools. All 300 series stainless will be almost non-magnetic (there is a very slight attraction of a magnet but nothing like mild steel). The scrap yard that I routinely trade with has an x-ray spectrometer that they use to check for the exact grade & alloy content. Out on Vancouver Island I saw another testing method using some sort of acid that will turn a certain color when reacting with the molybdenum that is in 316 (and is not present in 304). They used the magnet test to be sure that it was a 300 series of stainless to begin with. Hope that this helps somewhat. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab. com dejongralph wrote: > > > Can someone tell me how to identify 316 at the scrap yard. > > Thanks > Ralph > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17307|17300|2008-04-28 23:50:14|J Fisher|Re: 316|Depends on how much it is cold worked. In a fully annealed condition they are the same. All 300 series will gain some magnetic attraction as they get worked, but 303 and 304 gain more. So it is only a rough test. John From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 9:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 316 I have found that a strong (50lbs pull) rare earth magnet will stick to 304L and not 316 or 316L. L is for low carbon used in chemical service or Urea fertilizer manufacturing. Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Anderson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 7:29:43 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 316 Ralph, Positive identification is difficult without rather expensive tools. All 300 series stainless will be almost non-magnetic (there is a very slight attraction of a magnet but nothing like mild steel). The scrap yard that I routinely trade with has an x-ray spectrometer that they use to check for the exact grade & alloy content. Out on Vancouver Island I saw another testing method using some sort of acid that will turn a certain color when reacting with the molybdenum that is in 316 (and is not present in 304). They used the magnet test to be sure that it was a 300 series of stainless to begin with. Hope that this helps somewhat. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab. com dejongralph wrote: > > > Can someone tell me how to identify 316 at the scrap yard. > > Thanks > Ralph > __________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17308|17302|2008-04-29 03:18:03|kingsknight4life|Re: hatch hinges|I think that's a great way to do your hinges. You may or may not want hinges in all directions but it you build them like they did on Moonflower it lets you lock the hinges shut fairly securely. If you use pins that are removeable someone could possibly take the pins out and remove the hatch and enter your boat. This also allows you to fully remove the hatch if you need to do any maintenance on or around the hatch. As Brent points out becareful with removeable hatches in case you forget to put them back on properly. Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Look at Moonflower's pictures of the hatches - > can place them where you want to catch wind. > > kate > | 17309|17303|2008-04-29 03:23:01|kingsknight4life|Re: Coupla things...|Gary, did you build or buy your airhead toilet? For our old Taylor stove (kerosene) it required preheating as well, methanol works well as does "fire gel". It is a paste and you can get it at camping stores. Not sure which is better because eventually Bev got sick of the mess of uing Kerosene and since our boat was on the hard we switcched to an electric hotplate. No worries with spilling the firegel but I'm not sure if it burns as hot as methanol, it did work on our stove though. Rowland -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" > wrote: > > > > Phone: thanks all for comments...looks like Skype is a good bet for > > starters. > > > > Air Head Marine Toilet: Brent...I tried the coconut pith available at > > Home Hardware Nanaimo for $7.50... good results. The pith comes in 4 > > dehydrated x 12x12 blocks about 8 inches high total. One block is more > > than enough for the year as it re-constitutes in water...very easy > > storing the other 3 blocks... a 4 year supply $7.50. > > > > Sigmar Diesel Stove: Anyone out there with one of these? They work > > great but I am getting a bit annoyed with start up procedure (according > > to the manual) which is dumping a small 35mm film container of > > kerosene in the unit followed by a small lump of tissue which has > > swabbed the film container (then ignited). This has the potential > > of a kerosene spill in the boat which I nearly found out. Anybody > > using an alternative way of heat priming the stove? > > > > thanks... Gary > > > > Gary , a squirt bottle of methanol ( wood alcohol) kept by the > stove to start the Fab-all(Sigmar) 120. Use a small amount like 10 > mls. No paper or kero. No problems in 15 yrs. ( No explosions). > Steve > | 17310|17300|2008-04-29 03:35:34|kingsknight4life|Re: 316|Not to sound facetious but does it really matter? What I'm saying is most pipes, valves etc. that I've found in scrap yards are labelled either 304 or 316 etc. If it is for a thru hull for example then get the 316 (and the valve will be marked) but for some things I don't think it matters as they won't see that much saltwater. I may be wrong though but I'm sure I asked the same question to Brent and got a similar type of response. ie. In some places it is probably overkill to go with 316 and any stainless would do. Only you can answer if your budget or piece of mind can afford to take a chance or not. If not and it's in an area that needs 316 then "splurge" if not take a chance on the "unknown" SS. With all of that being said he also taught me to carry a magnet and the less magnetic the SS the "better" it was. Hope this post didn't come across "wrong" I just think that if there's no easy test to conclusively determine the series of SS let your wallet and/or peace of mind be your guide. Good luck with your "hunting" and BTw what type of boat are you building? Rowland > > dejongralph wrote: > > > > > > Can someone tell me how to identify 316 at the scrap yard. > > > > Thanks > > Ralph > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17311|17303|2008-04-29 04:43:40|Bob|Re: Coupla things...|Gary, Us snowmobilers up here in Minnesocold carry a 35mm container of cotton puff balls greased up with petroleum jelly (Vaseline -- is one name brand of the kind found in the cosmetics isle at the market). It'll take to a match pretty quick and won't go out in a stiff wind when setting fire to kindling. Its a tidy little package that'll take the abuse of the trail and not leak fluid, but you'll have to see how thin the viscosity gets in the hottest of months, cuz I'm don't know for how thin for sure. Hope that could be of some use. Regards, Bob Diesel Stove: Anyone out there with one of these? They > work > > > great but I am getting a bit annoyed with start up procedure > (according > > > to the manual) which is dumping a small 35mm film container of > > > kerosene in the unit followed by a small lump of tissue which has > > > swabbed the film container (then ignited). This has the > potential > > > of a kerosene spill in the boat which I nearly found out. Anybody > > > using an alternative way of heat priming the stove? > > > > > > thanks... Gary > > > > > > | 17312|17303|2008-04-29 08:42:59|James Pronk|Re: Coupla things...|I have been using a multi fuel stove for years camping and I have had very good luck with a small Ronson butane torch to preheat the burner. Has anyone seen or done a alcohol to kerosene conversion? Thanks, James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" > wrote: > > > > Phone: thanks all for comments...looks like Skype is a good bet for > > starters. > > > > Air Head Marine Toilet: Brent...I tried the coconut pith available at > > Home Hardware Nanaimo for $7.50... good results. The pith comes in 4 > > dehydrated x 12x12 blocks about 8 inches high total. One block is more > > than enough for the year as it re-constitutes in water...very easy > > storing the other 3 blocks... a 4 year supply $7.50. > > > > Sigmar Diesel Stove: Anyone out there with one of these? They work > > great but I am getting a bit annoyed with start up procedure (according > > to the manual) which is dumping a small 35mm film container of > > kerosene in the unit followed by a small lump of tissue which has > > swabbed the film container (then ignited). This has the potential > > of a kerosene spill in the boat which I nearly found out. Anybody > > using an alternative way of heat priming the stove? > > > > thanks... Gary > > > > Gary , a squirt bottle of methanol ( wood alcohol) kept by the > stove to start the Fab-all(Sigmar) 120. Use a small amount like 10 > mls. No paper or kero. No problems in 15 yrs. ( No explosions). > Steve > | 17313|17313|2008-04-29 11:08:54|mkriley@fuse.net|toughbook computers for mapping programs|: could I get a brief overview of these for gps and mapping programs thanks mike| 17314|17313|2008-04-30 03:30:33|sae140|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > : > could I get a brief overview of these for gps and mapping programs > thanks mike > Have you tried Googling for "Panasonic Toughbook" ? http://www.panasonic.com/business/Toughbook/laptop-computers.asp Also - plenty of reviews listed on Google. Colin| 17315|17313|2008-04-30 10:27:32|mkriley48|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|-guess i should have been clearer. I am interested including finding the minimum requirements for a old toughbook that will run a good linux map program, this will be a dedicated laptop. I recall a disscussion but it may not have been on this list. There was somebody that recoommended a specfic model mike -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > : > > could I get a brief overview of these for gps and mapping programs > > thanks mike > > > > Have you tried Googling for "Panasonic Toughbook" ? > > http://www.panasonic.com/business/Toughbook/laptop-computers.asp > > Also - plenty of reviews listed on Google. > > Colin > | 17316|17300|2008-04-30 12:16:37|dejongralph|Re: 316|A bit disappointing to read that there is no fast 100% identification (?). Does that mean that we take a rusty appearance of the boat for granted or buy new materials? I bought the plans for the BS31 and start slowly slowly slowly (in Belgium). Thanks, Ralph --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Not to sound facetious but does it really matter? What I'm saying is > most pipes, valves etc. that I've found in scrap yards are labelled > either 304 or 316 etc. If it is for a thru hull for example then get > the 316 (and the valve will be marked) but for some things I don't > think it matters as they won't see that much saltwater. > > I may be wrong though but I'm sure I asked the same question to Brent > and got a similar type of response. ie. In some places it is probably > overkill to go with 316 and any stainless would do. Only you can > answer if your budget or piece of mind can afford to take a chance or > not. If not and it's in an area that needs 316 then "splurge" if not > take a chance on the "unknown" SS. > > With all of that being said he also taught me to carry a magnet and > the less magnetic the SS the "better" it was. Hope this post didn't > come across "wrong" I just think that if there's no easy test to > conclusively determine the series of SS let your wallet and/or peace > of mind be your guide. Good luck with your "hunting" and BTw what > type of boat are you building? > Rowland | 17317|17303|2008-04-30 14:34:01|Gary Prebble|Re: Coupla things...|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Gary, > did you build or buy your airhead toilet? Hi Rowland... I bought mine last year & am happy with it. There is a competitor out now as well...try a google. Brent built his (mine but on steriods which looks like it could survive intact as an archeological find a milenium or two down the road.) Suggest getting in touch with him for details. Regards... Gary| 17318|17300|2008-04-30 15:41:12|Carl Anderson|Re: 316|Ralph, Well the hand held x-ray spectrometer is really fast (about 15 seconds) just that no one wants to cough up the $30,000 to buy one unless you are in the non-ferrous metals business in volume. As for valves, look for the "CF8M" casting mark as this denotes 316SS (there is quite a bit of stuff that doesn't have a "316" label but it is). I've found a lot of 316 pipe that doesn't have any markings left on it. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com dejongralph wrote: > > > A bit disappointing to read that there is no fast 100% identification > (?). Does that mean that we take a rusty appearance of the boat for > granted or buy new materials? > > I bought the plans for the BS31 and start slowly slowly slowly (in > Belgium). > Thanks, Ralph > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > Not to sound facetious but does it really matter? What I'm saying > is > > most pipes, valves etc. that I've found in scrap yards are > labelled > > either 304 or 316 etc. If it is for a thru hull for example then > get > > the 316 (and the valve will be marked) but for some things I don't > > think it matters as they won't see that much saltwater. > > > > I may be wrong though but I'm sure I asked the same question to > Brent > > and got a similar type of response. ie. In some places it is > probably > > overkill to go with 316 and any stainless would do. Only you can > > answer if your budget or piece of mind can afford to take a chance > or > > not. If not and it's in an area that needs 316 then "splurge" if > not > > take a chance on the "unknown" SS. > > > > With all of that being said he also taught me to carry a magnet > and > > the less magnetic the SS the "better" it was. Hope this post > didn't > > come across "wrong" I just think that if there's no easy test to > > conclusively determine the series of SS let your wallet and/or > peace > > of mind be your guide. Good luck with your "hunting" and BTw what > > type of boat are you building? > > Rowland > > | 17319|17313|2008-05-01 09:28:25|sae140|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > -guess i should have been clearer. I am interested including finding > the minimum requirements for a old toughbook that will run a good > linux map program, this will be a dedicated laptop. I recall a > disscussion but it may not have been on this list. There was somebody > that recoommended a specfic model > mike > > I'm running CMAPECS, Tsunami'99 and Maxsea 7 sucessfully on bronze-age Thinkpads (Pentium 300-ish, 64-128Mb ram, 1024x768) under WIN98SE, so I would imagine that a similar spec would be ok with a ToughBook, especially if you're going down the Linux route. My only complaint with the Thinkpads is the poor screen visibility in daylight, which is where I'm told the Toughbooks excel. But early Thinkpads are miles cheaper than their equivalent Toughbook - so it's kinda "swings and roundabouts". Good luck Colin| 17320|17313|2008-05-01 11:30:57|Carl Anderson|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|Getting a computer display to be "daylight readable" is the difficult (expensive) thing. I've checked into several ways to go and still haven't come up with anything that I like (can afford). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com sae140 wrote: > > I'm running CMAPECS, Tsunami'99 and Maxsea 7 sucessfully on bronze-age > Thinkpads (Pentium 300-ish, 64-128Mb ram, 1024x768) under WIN98SE, so > I would imagine that a similar spec would be ok with a ToughBook, > especially if you're going down the Linux route. > My only complaint with the Thinkpads is the poor screen visibility in > daylight, which is where I'm told the Toughbooks excel. But early > Thinkpads are miles cheaper than their equivalent Toughbook - so it's > kinda "swings and roundabouts". > > Good luck > Colin > > | 17321|17313|2008-05-01 15:55:49|Paul Wilson|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|I have used a toughbooks at work and the models I have used are no better in sunlight than any other laptop.  I think the best thing about the Toughbooks are the sealed keypad but don't think the extra cost is worth it.  I never use my laptop in the cockpit and the boat is dry enough below that I have never had a problem with a regular laptop.  I have it in a sealed Pelican case when not in use and I have always been careful with it.  If I wanted a dedicated navigation computer, I would avoid anything used and by a cheap, brand new one with XP instead of Vista.  I think most used laptops are overpriced and you don't know what kind of abuse they have had.  In my experience, you get about 3-4 years out of a laptop until one of the parts gives out.  New computers are incredibly cheap now. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2008 3:30:55 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs Getting a computer display to be "daylight readable" is the difficult (expensive) thing. I've checked into several ways to go and still haven't come up with anything that I like (can afford). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab. com sae140 wrote: > > I'm running CMAPECS, Tsunami'99 and Maxsea 7 sucessfully on bronze-age > Thinkpads (Pentium 300-ish, 64-128Mb ram, 1024x768) under WIN98SE, so > I would imagine that a similar spec would be ok with a ToughBook, > especially if you're going down the Linux route. > My only complaint with the Thinkpads is the poor screen visibility in > daylight, which is where I'm told the Toughbooks excel. But early > Thinkpads are miles cheaper than their equivalent Toughbook - so it's > kinda "swings and roundabouts" . > > Good luck > Colin > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17322|17322|2008-05-02 03:28:59|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Urgently Requirement For Engineer Mechanical System Performance|MBP Skill Indonesia CONTRACTING – CONSULTING – RECRUITING – TRAINING – FORMALITIES One of our clients is a leading international Power Plant Company and involved with a number of projects and is looking for a qualified candidates to fill the position for : ENGINEER, MECHANICAL SYSTEM PERFORMANCE ( MBP 211 – 106 - 4 ) Main Responsibilities : The Mechanical Engineer System Performance Analyst shall be responsible to corrdinate, inspect, analyze and supervise the implementation of the mechanical system performance monitoring for the Companys's System, both 50Hz system and 60 Hz System including Coal Plant and Diesel Plants in order to assure all system are in proper operational and maintenance. The requirements are as follows : • S1 Degree in Mechanical Engineering with a min. of 4 years experience in Power Plant • D3 Degree in Mechanical Engineering with a min. of 6 years experience in Power Plant • Strong knowledge of electrical utility performance analysis and a sound understanding of the technical aspects of a utility • Computer knowledge in hardware and software to support performance and analysis for mechanical disciplines ( Fibration Equipment and Infrared ) • Strong interpersonal skill in a team, self motivated, independent, familiar with working under pressure environment • Fluent written and spoken in English • Willing to be based in Papua An attractive remuneration package commensurating with experience will be offered to the successful candidate. Your application will be treated confidentially and only shorted listed candidates will be followed up. Please send your comprehensive CV and recent photo to resumes@... and quote the above listed reference number of position Regards, MBP Skill Indonesia CONTRACTING – CONSULTING – RECRUITING – TRAINING – FORMALITIES| 17323|17313|2008-05-02 04:22:16|sae140|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Getting a computer display to be "daylight readable" is the difficult > (expensive) thing. I've checked into several ways to go and still > haven't come up with anything that I like (can afford). > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > 2 workarounds spring to mind: I've seen various laptop sun-hoods advertised which would be easy enough to make yourself, but dunno how good these things are in practice. Then there's the possibility of using a simple NMEA cockpit repeater: leave the chart display inside the cabin, and rig up a simple waterproof LCD display (or LED for night use) for mounting in the cockpit - just giving (say) 4 lines of waypoint and other GPS data. Of course the best solution by far is to have a wheelhouse ! Colin| 17324|17313|2008-05-02 09:39:22|audeojude|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|I make my living as an IT company for small businesses with full support of linux solutions as well as all windows products with my clients. Mostly server but some desktop also. I have been getting in a few older toshiba laptops in the last couple years. 1.2-1.8 ghz range satellites... when I get one in and refurb it. I will use it as my personal laptop till I get a better one in. then I sell it.. so far I have gone through three in the last year. I have run Ubuntu Linux on all three and it has run flawlessly on all of them. Wireless, sound, even accelerated video on some of them. Most of the toshiba laptops have the truebright screens that are really easy to see outdoors and in daylight. biggest issue with them is that the screens are very reflective and you can get reflections in them.. but I have not found that as big a problem as the older screens that just washed out in sunlight. Good market price for one of these units between 200 and 350 dollars for that it should have 80 gig hard drive, 512+ memory, wifi, cd burner/dvd rom drive. if you have any computer skills at all getting one with a bad hard drive is ideal.. you can get people to just about give you which is more than most people want to spend on an old laptop if they can buy a newer faster one for 499) their dead laptops and then spend 60 bucks on a hard drive and install linux on it. (sadly if you can't do this type of repair yourself it ends up costing around 300 dollars to pays someone to do it between parts and labor) or if they didn't have the restore disks to give you and you want to put windows back on it.. just call toshiba and give them the serial number and pay 40 bucks for the factory restore disks for the computer. all manufactures of computers will sell you the restore disks for a specific unit even out of warranty for between 25 and 40 dollars. ubuntu is my preferred pick for linux over the last few years.. ubuntu.com, free download :)| 17325|17313|2008-05-02 10:51:08|sv_roan1|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|Well I use and know many others who specifcally look for a laptop that has a 15 volt battery system that outputs 12 volts to the computer and requires 14+ volts to charge. This way you can hook the laptop directly to the ships power without using an inverter, which causes problems with airmail. AND no need for a new expensive computer battery. I use an old Toshiba laptop. It has been trough some really rough storms, travelled 30,000 km been onshore and offshore, in tropical and North Pacific weather, it is bullet proof. If you are worried about nav/airmail software requirements, Win 98 is fine for the operating software. If you want to down load lots of maps to the harddrive, replace the small drive with a larger one (cheap) But for me 12 volt ships power operations is the most important requirement. I always kept two computers onboard (brand new and my old trusty Toshiba). I still have my old Toshiba and it works great for a deicated nav/airmail. even though I am currently on terafirma I will never part with it. Make sure the unit has a cd reader in it. There are lots of nav software available FREE through other sailors. I have CMAP for the world and other software charts, all I gleaned in variuos ports around the pacific and still trade. also Music is important and you should be able to trade music. A small memory stick temp storage device works good for temp copy from one boat to another. good luck --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > -guess i should have been clearer. I am interested including finding > the minimum requirements for a old toughbook that will run a good > linux map program, this will be a dedicated laptop. I recall a > disscussion but it may not have been on this list. There was somebody > that recoommended a specfic model > mike > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > : > > > could I get a brief overview of these for gps and mapping programs > > > thanks mike > > > > > > > Have you tried Googling for "Panasonic Toughbook" ? > > > > http://www.panasonic.com/business/Toughbook/laptop-computers.asp > > > > Also - plenty of reviews listed on Google. > > > > Colin > > > | 17326|17313|2008-05-02 13:32:08|slade green|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|First of all are you wanting to take this laptop into the cockpit, is that why you want this daylight readable screen?(bad Idea) Can't you just keep it at your nav station, with your little 200watt inverter standing by. Does your boat have no roof. I'm using a furuno 16 mile radar screen outside in the cockpit it repeats all available data from the Gps and the laptop repeats as well. Keep laptops inside, there are far more valuable dry and safe. I would also get an older top of the line laptop, an external hard drive could also hold extra data or just burn it to cd and store it with your paper charts. Also I found it imperative to use 9 pin connectors as the plug and play systems for reading usb ports causes major crashes(nobletec) the biggest problems comes when the computer goes into hibernation mode and the gps signal gets cut off. I as well searched the market for tough books but there advantages did not outweigh there lack of good do dads and small memory space. One that I had found used only 8g of memory. If you can find a copy of Chart View pro is absolutly a great no nonsense program that served me for 3 years offshore. sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Getting a computer display to be "daylight readable" is the difficult > (expensive) thing. I've checked into several ways to go and still > haven't come up with anything that I like (can afford). > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > 2 workarounds spring to mind: I've seen various laptop sun-hoods advertised which would be easy enough to make yourself, but dunno how good these things are in practice. Then there's the possibility of using a simple NMEA cockpit repeater: leave the chart display inside the cabin, and rig up a simple waterproof LCD display (or LED for night use) for mounting in the cockpit - just giving (say) 4 lines of waypoint and other GPS data. Of course the best solution by far is to have a wheelhouse ! Colin --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17327|17327|2008-05-02 17:20:37|mickeyolaf|Cook Islands Trivia|I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for diesel. $55 for 24 beer. The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing suits using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud of them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing the engineering and construction of these suits closely. I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly covered. Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to stop. I could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18.50 for bacon and eggs and toast. It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the wrong side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage here.| 17328|17327|2008-05-02 18:35:36|kingsknight4life|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|Glad to hear that your having a good time. Rowland| 17329|17313|2008-05-02 18:56:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 01:39:17PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > I make my living as an IT company for small businesses with full > support of linux solutions as well as all windows products with my > clients. Mostly server but some desktop also. Funny - that's much of what I'm doing, too (in addition to teaching, which is my primary biz these days.) We ought to get together and compare notes. :) > I have been getting in a few older toshiba laptops in the last couple > years. 1.2-1.8 ghz range satellites... when I get one in and refurb > it. I will use it as my personal laptop till I get a better one in. > then I sell it.. so far I have gone through three in the last year. I > have run Ubuntu Linux on all three and it has run flawlessly on all of > them. Wireless, sound, even accelerated video on some of them. Sweet! As I'm sure you know, wireless is the one thing that tends to be a pain - there are so many proprietary chipsets out there. Although 'ndiswrapper' takes care of most of those problems, installing and configuring it tends to be A Non-Trivial Task. > ubuntu is my preferred pick for linux over the last few years.. > ubuntu.com, free download :) Ditto. I used to be a hard-core Debian addict, but Ubuntu is Debian-based (so I still get all the benefits) *and* it's all warm and fuzzy and newbie-friendly. That's hard to beat. Oh, and they just came out with a new release that's supposed to be even cooler - I just published the latest issue of the Linux Gazette last night (http://linuxgazette.net), so that's news hot off the press. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17330|17327|2008-05-03 01:38:39|Paul Wilson|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|Howdy, If you can get a copy, read Don Silk's book, "From Kauri Trees to Sunlit Seas".  Don  was (is?) the harbor master in Rarotonga and wrote a book about the shipping company he started and ran in the South Pacific, operating out of the Cook Islands.  It's a very entertaining read.  Drop in and see if he is still around.  I have never met him but have heard lots of good stories about him.    Enjoy the survey you are doing. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: mickeyolaf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 9:20:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Cook Islands Trivia I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for diesel. $55 for 24 beer. The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing suits using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud of them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing the engineering and construction of these suits closely. I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly covered. Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to stop. I could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18.50 for bacon and eggs and toast. It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the wrong side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage here. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17331|17313|2008-05-03 09:01:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 02:51:07PM -0000, sv_roan1 wrote: > Well I use and know many others who specifcally look for a laptop > that has a 15 volt battery system that outputs 12 volts to the > computer and requires 14+ volts to charge. This way you can hook > the laptop directly to the ships power without using an inverter, > which causes problems with airmail. AND no need for a new expensive > computer battery. Hooking a laptop directly to the ship's power will result in a need for a new expensive laptop. Every time you start your engine, for example, the voltage can momentarily jump to double its normal value; when you turn on a heavy-draw appliance (e.g., a vacuum cleaner running off your inverter), the voltage can easily dip to half the nominal value. This is almost as good a treatment for a laptop as just throwing the thing into the ocean. VHFs, etc., are designed for an electrical environment like that. Laptops - which are designed to operate either from a battery or from a heavily-filtered power supply - are not. I'm not blaming you, but whoever is spreading that suggestion around is going to cost people a lot of money. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17332|17332|2008-05-03 13:09:41|Amanda|Newbie. Hello to the group!|Dear Member I just wanted to say a quick hello to the group as I am a newbie! I am off for a long weekend break, but I hope that I can be an asset and contribute some good info to the group when I return next week Take care and have a great weekend Regards Amanda "I never knew finding freebies was so much fun" http://groups.google.com/group/freebiefinder/| 17333|17313|2008-05-03 13:27:10|robammicht|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|Ok folks, here is another solution, from another newbie, who just met Brent for the first time on my island, and of course I had to buy his book off him right then and there on Main Road Lasqueti Island. Anyhow this would better work for every notebook, go to kensington.com They make universal power adapters/supplies, good from 12VDC to 240VAC!!!! So any source anywhere will do! I just scored a pretty-close-to-new-one on e-bay incl shipping to BC for 12 bucks total. While a new one is worth @100 depending on which model. They have a finder on-line so all you have to do fill in the name and make of your notebook and it finds you the relevant power adapter with the correct plug. I hope this helps Best Robert .......The twilight hours, like birds, flew by As lightly and as free, Ten thousand stars were in the sky, Ten thousand on the sea; For every wave, with dimpled face, For every rippling dancing wave, That leaped upon the air, Had caught a star in its embrace, And held it trembling there. Amelia B. Welby (1819 - 1852) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 02:51:07PM -0000, sv_roan1 wrote: > > Well I use and know many others who specifcally look for a laptop > > that has a 15 volt battery system that outputs 12 volts to the > > computer and requires 14+ volts to charge. This way you can hook > > the laptop directly to the ships power without using an inverter, > > which causes problems with airmail. AND no need for a new expensive > > computer battery. > > Hooking a laptop directly to the ship's power will result in a need for > a new expensive laptop. Every time you start your engine, for example, > the voltage can momentarily jump to double its normal value; when you > turn on a heavy-draw appliance (e.g., a vacuum cleaner running off your > inverter), the voltage can easily dip to half the nominal value. This is > almost as good a treatment for a laptop as just throwing the thing into > the ocean. > > VHFs, etc., are designed for an electrical environment like that. > Laptops - which are designed to operate either from a battery or from a > heavily-filtered power supply - are not. I'm not blaming you, but > whoever is spreading that suggestion around is going to cost people a > lot of money. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17334|17327|2008-05-03 14:07:58|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|Hey Mickey, Kwityerbloodybitching it's tough all over! Advise caution re survey as overly close public inspecions may earn you title of "letch". Private inspections however may prove to be much more.....rewarding, espcially in terms of your research. Enjoy! Shane __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 17335|17327|2008-05-03 19:14:15|mickeyolaf|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|I went to the Harbormasters office today. Was closed but the book is for sale in the window so I will return and buy a copy. I kayacked out to the reef. Once out there it's about 50-75' across the reef top with about 6" of water over it, some dry (at times) spots. I would hate the thought of putting even a steel boat onto it. Fiberglass would just turn to wet dust. How long a metal boat would survive is a guess. If thrown up on top or over it would be the best. Caught in what looks like a turbine in front of the reef would be very bad. It's also very loud as the sea crashes in, which is a good thing. In theory u would hear the reef well before you struck your boat there. When Cook arrived here in 1773 the Island women swam out to his ships. In 2008 there is no such luck but there is a huge beer store 100' from the dock. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Howdy, > If you can get a copy, read Don Silk's book, "From Kauri Trees to Sunlit Seas".  Don  was (is?) the harbor master in Rarotonga and wrote a book about the shipping company he started and ran in the South Pacific, operating out of the Cook Islands.  It's a very entertaining read.  Drop in and see if he is still around.  I have never met him but have heard lots of good stories about him.  >   > Enjoy the survey you are doing. > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: mickeyolaf > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 9:20:36 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Cook Islands Trivia > > > I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. > Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. > Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for diesel. > $55 for 24 beer. > The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing suits > using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud of > them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing the > engineering and construction of these suits closely. > I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly covered. > Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to stop. I > could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. > Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18.50 for bacon and eggs and > toast. > It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride > scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to > dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the wrong > side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. > Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage here. > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17336|17313|2008-05-04 04:36:49|sae140|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "robammicht" wrote: > > Ok folks, > here is another solution, from another newbie, who just met Brent for > the first time on my island, and of course I had to buy his book off > him right then and there on Main Road Lasqueti Island. > > Anyhow this would better work for every notebook, > > go to > > kensington.com > > They make universal power adapters/supplies, good from 12VDC to > 240VAC!!!! So any source anywhere will do! > > I just scored a pretty-close-to-new-one on e-bay incl shipping to BC > for 12 bucks total. > While a new one is worth @100 depending on which model. > Three things which mediate against an inverter (apart from the obvious conversion efficiency issue): 1) another gadget to buy 2) another gadget to go wrong 3) do you really want 240V (in Europe) 'floating about' the cabin, when the same job could be done by 12. Notebooks CAN be run more-or-less straight off a boat (or car's) battery - a small gel-cell and diode takes care of any momentary voltage drops, and a couple of back-to-back zeners take care of any transient spikes. I do think it's bit rich for someone who isn't doing something themselves to tell the many dozens of people who are (and who have been doing so for years), why it can't be done. Colin (IBM ThinkPad 600 x3 - and not a Lithium-Ion cell between 'em !)| 17337|17313|2008-05-04 09:35:54|Ben Okopnik|Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 08:36:47AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > Three things which mediate against an inverter (apart from the obvious > conversion efficiency issue): > 1) another gadget to buy > 2) another gadget to go wrong > 3) do you really want 240V (in Europe) 'floating about' the cabin, > when the same job could be done by 12. Cruising boats without AC are pretty rare these days, in my experience - so that's a "gadget" that most people are already going to have. I'd certainly consider installing a "house" inverter (i.e., one that services several outlets in the boat) rather than one designed for an individual item, but that comes down to individual choice. > Notebooks CAN be run more-or-less straight off a boat (or car's) > battery - a small gel-cell and diode takes care of any momentary > voltage drops, and a couple of back-to-back zeners take care of any > transient spikes. Yes, taking care of those "minor details" - something that 99.9% of the world wouldn't have the slightest clue about - would indeed take care of things. ("Except for _that_ minor detail, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?") Back in the real world, people fry laptops by hooking them up directly to the boat's power supply all the time - I've done a couple of post-mortems while cruising. > I do think it's bit rich for someone who isn't doing something > themselves to tell the many dozens of people who are (and who have > been doing so for years), why it can't be done. [sigh] Still engaging in a pissing contest, eh Colin? Grow up. I don't drink poison, either, but I do believe I'd be 100% right if I advise someone else not to do it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17338|17313|2008-05-04 10:52:39|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|> Notebooks CAN be run more-or-less straight off a boat (or car's) > battery - a small gel-cell and diode takes care of any momentary > voltage drops, and a couple of back-to-back zeners take care of any > transient spikes. Yes, taking care of those "minor details" - something that 99.9% of the world wouldn't have the slightest clue about - would indeed take care of things. Ben and Colin, You seem to have the knowledge of how to hook these laptops in a safe way. Can you point to any address or drawing on how to do it? Really interesting to know. /Leif T __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3072 (20080503) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com| 17339|17313|2008-05-04 11:26:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: SV: [origamiboats] Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 04:52:32PM +0200, Leif Thomsen wrote: > > > > Notebooks CAN be run more-or-less straight off a boat (or car's) > > battery - a small gel-cell and diode takes care of any momentary > > voltage drops, and a couple of back-to-back zeners take care of any > > transient spikes. > > Yes, taking care of those "minor details" - something that 99.9% of the > world wouldn't have the slightest clue about - would indeed take care of > things. > > Ben and Colin, > > You seem to have the knowledge of how to hook these laptops in a safe way. > Can you point to any address or drawing on how to do it? Really interesting > to know. Well, it is actually fairly easy - although not quite as easy as Colin made it sound. Let's see if I can draw a diagram (it'll be a bit crude because it's all text characters): D1 + ---->|-o-----o-----o-----o----------o----------------> + | | | | | | --- ,-' V === C1 = C2 --- ^ Z1 `-. Z2 = B1 To laptop | | | | | - -------o-----o-----o-----o----------o----------------> - D1 - heavy duty 50v or better diode (2.5x the max current required by the laptop) C1 - .001uF capacitor C2 - several 50v 1000uF capacitors in parallel Z1, Z2 - high-power 15-volt zener diodes B1 - a small (motorcycle or alarm-system) 12v battery The principle is that the power diode will block any reverse-voltage spikes from reaching your computer; it also provides you with protection against incorrectly hooking it up. A diode bridge at this point would allow you to hook it up in either direction and would still work, but you'd lose another .7 volt of the input voltage... The small capacitor would effectively short out any fast transient voltage spikes; the big cap after it would take care of larger, slower changes in voltage. The zeners (clamping diodes) would short out any high-voltage stuff that got past that combination; most people like to have a series resistor connected to each of them, but I've found that this decreases the effectiveness of the zeners and is not usually necessary as long as you use zeners with a high-enough wattage rating. Last, and most effective, is a small battery. This actually combines some of the effects of the preceding circuit with storage and provides pretty good protection - and if/when your system battery goes down, it'll provide you with a bit of power to continue running your system. The power diode also provides blocking - meaning that system loads before this circuit should not discharge your battery - while allowing charging voltage to come through (thus the 15V rating for the zeners.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17340|17313|2008-05-04 13:56:04|Leif Thomsen|SV: SV: [origamiboats] Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|Well, it is actually fairly easy - although not quite as easy as Colin made it sound. Let's see if I can draw a diagram (it'll be a bit crude because it's all text characters): D1 + ---->|-o-----o-----o-----o----------o----------------> + | | | | | | --- ,-' V === C1 = C2 --- ^ Z1 `-. Z2 = B1 To laptop | | | | | - -------o-----o-----o-----o----------o----------------> - Ben, I´m amazed how text caracters can be used :-) Thanks. I will test this on a friends boat when we are going from Sweden Eastcoast to Norway (Stavanger) later this Year. Regards, Leif __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3072 (20080503) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com| 17341|17313|2008-05-04 16:44:14|Ben Okopnik|Re: SV: SV: [origamiboats] Re: toughbook computers for mapping progr|On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 07:55:55PM +0200, Leif Thomsen wrote: > > Ben, > > I´m amazed how text caracters can be used :-) Thanks. I will test this on a > friends boat when we are going from Sweden Eastcoast to Norway (Stavanger) > later this Year. Leif, you're welcome. It's a common enough circuit, and I certainly didn't invent it; the most important part of it is getting the wattages right for the diodes and using good quality capacitors. Let me expand my original caveat, though: I've seen some boat power systems that would kill _anything_ power-sensitive that was connected to them [1]. I would be very, very cautious about doing this at all unless I knew that the DC system on the boat was well wired, with heavy-enough cables and solid connections throughout. Using an inverter with a battery in the laptop handles all of this - they've got much better filtering circuits built into those things - which is why I'd recommend that route over this one. So, while this is certainly possible, it's not necessarily the best route. [1] I recall one in particular that had a bad crimp connection at the battery end of the alternator output cable... kept frying alternators, VHFs, SSBs, etc. The owner had been through a dozen electricians, none of whom could figure it out until he ran into me in Boqueron, Puerto Rico. I spent a good 4 hours tracing out his system, and found the damn thing - and the only reason I did is because I had my very fancy digital meter with a graphing function and showed hundredths of a volt on the 20-volt scale. It was invisible - the crimp looked perfectly good - but it had a *varying* 0-0.2 volt drop across it when a heavy load was applied, and would spike (break the connection for a fraction of a second) when the engine ran and vibrated it. That kinda crap can turn your hair gray. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17342|17342|2008-05-04 21:35:50|Aaron|Winches|The question is: would a pair of Barrent 28s be to large for my BS36 The price is low enough I can afford to by the self tailing kit. Any one have a handle that fits? Aaron| 17343|17313|2008-05-05 08:33:15|sae140|SV: [origamiboats] Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Leif Thomsen" wrote: > > > Notebooks CAN be run more-or-less straight off a boat (or car's) > > battery - a small gel-cell and diode takes care of any momentary > > voltage drops, and a couple of back-to-back zeners take care of any > > transient spikes. > > Yes, taking care of those "minor details" - something that 99.9% of the > world wouldn't have the slightest clue about - would indeed take care of > things. > Hi Leif I didn't mean to imply that using clipping zeners and a back-up battery was the ONLY way to go - just that this is a simple way to address Ben's critique. When connecting laptops to external power supplies, it's essential to consider each laptop separately. The following stuff applies ONLY to IBM's Thinkpad 600-series, so skip if irrelevant. After researching the HUGE s/h laptop market for several months, I decided upon using early bronze-age ThinkPad 600s. Why ? Well, they run all the nav software I possess as stable as a rock under WIN98SE (98Lite). Also, they're built like the proverbial brick out-house; user repairable (by module swap); available globally; near the bottom of the ThinkPad range (so no-one wants 'em !); and are usually sold with dead Lithium-Ion battery packs - indeed the 600-series Thinkpads have a legendary reputation for 'premature death' batteries (due to bad software which IBM have never owned up to). They're frequently available on eBay for around £25 ($50) fully working - except for dead CMOS and main batteries. The 600s have a relatively short CMOS battery life due to IBM's trick of using this battery to run/test the CPU fan for several seconds during each cold boot. These lithium cells have a custom connector and cost around £5 to replace, but there's a simple way of fitting bigger and cheaper standard lithium cells for around a quid a go. PM me for details. Depending on how you intend to use the laptop, by far the simplest method is to run the motherboard directly from a discrete lead-acid battery - i.e. one which isn't connected to anything else. Indeed, the first direct-to-'automotive 12 volt lead-acid' system I made didn't have either zeners or a back-up battery. I could take and post some pics if there's any interest. The ThinkPad 600 charger socket requires 15.5-17V (which would be a pain in the bum to generate. It is possible to run the TP via this connection from 12-14v, but the TP keeps complaining). However, the notorious TP internal Lithium-Ion battery operates within the range 10.8-12.6 volts. So - having several duff batteries to choose from, I simply stripped-out the Lithium-Ion cells from one such battery (SAFETY - SEE LAST PARAGRAPH) and connected a pair of flying leads to the battery terminals, with a couple of diode drops inserted into the positive lead together with a pair of anti-RFI ferrite tubes. (None of these are essential - I tend to 'over-engineer' stuff like this) The ThinkPad Li-Ion battery has four connections - 2 are supply terminals, the other two are sense lines normally connected to a microprocessor inside the battery case. These latter two terminals are left unconnected, and the ThinkPad isn't any the wiser. It then won't supply any on-screen 'battery-state info' - but who cares ? Should the lead-acid battery voltage ever drop below c.10 volts, the TP will power down in the normal controlled manner. To enable monitoring of the actual voltage being applied to the motherboard, but also with a view to fitting a back-up lead-acid gel-cell, I ran a third flying lead directly to the (original Li-Ion) battery positive terminal with nothing added. When this wire was scoped, the voltage to the motherboard proved to be clean, so nothing further was added to this Mk.I homebrew adapter. If I had seen any noise on the positive line, then I'd have inserted a couple of ferrite toroid inductors (the kind you'd find inside a PC power supply) in the lines to iron-out any noise. Of course, when using these there's always the possibility of creating spikes during switch-off, but a couple of back-to-back 15v zeners (with resistor) strapped across the output terminals would have solved that. When setting-up clipping zeners, you want the zeners to be non-conducting during normal use, but conducting in the presence of any transient spike which exceeds their threshold voltage. Low wattage jobs are therefore ok. You don't actually need to use zeners to clip a voltage - a string of 25x silicon diodes would do the same job, but that would not be a particularly elegant solution ! The bottom-line is "it can be done" - just how much of a production you make of doing so is really up to yourself. If using £25 quid laptops one can afford to cut a few corners - but if you insist on using a top of the range laptop on board a boat, then I'd ignore everything I've just written, and go buy yourself an inverter .... Colin BTW - when stripping apart a Lithium-Ion battery - do so with care, outside, and with suitable safety gear (glasses etc) - if you pierce the cells they will burn furiously, and can even explode.| 17344|17327|2008-05-05 08:37:05|Ray|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > Alright man - we need photographic evidence to support the veracity of your claims. These Kiwis you mentioned may be on to something....| 17345|17313|2008-05-05 08:46:24|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs|Colin - thanks, I realize that the inverter route seems to be the easiest way.....but I have printed out your explanation and I will decide together with my friend how valuable we think his laptop is? (I think itÂ’s a Toshiba, but I have myself an old IBM, just like the ones You are talking about, so maybe .....) Rgds/Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- FrÃ¥n: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För sae140 Skickat: den 5 maj 2008 14:33 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: SV: [origamiboats] Re: toughbook computers for mapping programs --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Leif Thomsen" wrote: > > > Notebooks CAN be run more-or-less straight off a boat (or car's) > > battery - a small gel-cell and diode takes care of any momentary > > voltage drops, and a couple of back-to-back zeners take care of any > > transient spikes. > > Yes, taking care of those "minor details" - something that 99.9% of the > world wouldn't have the slightest clue about - would indeed take care of > things. > Hi Leif I didn't mean to imply that using clipping zeners and a back-up battery was the ONLY way to go - just that this is a simple way to address Ben's critique. When connecting laptops to external power supplies, it's essential to consider each laptop separately. The following stuff applies ONLY to IBM's Thinkpad 600-series, so skip if irrelevant. After researching the HUGE s/h laptop market for several months, I decided upon using early bronze-age ThinkPad 600s. Why ? Well, they run all the nav software I possess as stable as a rock under WIN98SE (98Lite). Also, they're built like the proverbial brick out-house; user repairable (by module swap); available globally; near the bottom of the ThinkPad range (so no-one wants 'em !); and are usually sold with dead Lithium-Ion battery packs - indeed the 600-series Thinkpads have a legendary reputation for 'premature death' batteries (due to bad software which IBM have never owned up to). They're frequently available on eBay for around £25 ($50) fully working - except for dead CMOS and main batteries. The 600s have a relatively short CMOS battery life due to IBM's trick of using this battery to run/test the CPU fan for several seconds during each cold boot. These lithium cells have a custom connector and cost around £5 to replace, but there's a simple way of fitting bigger and cheaper standard lithium cells for around a quid a go. PM me for details. Depending on how you intend to use the laptop, by far the simplest method is to run the motherboard directly from a discrete lead-acid battery - i.e. one which isn't connected to anything else. Indeed, the first direct-to-'automotive 12 volt lead-acid' system I made didn't have either zeners or a back-up battery. I could take and post some pics if there's any interest. The ThinkPad 600 charger socket requires 15.5-17V (which would be a pain in the bum to generate. It is possible to run the TP via this connection from 12-14v, but the TP keeps complaining). However, the notorious TP internal Lithium-Ion battery operates within the range 10.8-12.6 volts. So - having several duff batteries to choose from, I simply stripped-out the Lithium-Ion cells from one such battery (SAFETY - SEE LAST PARAGRAPH) and connected a pair of flying leads to the battery terminals, with a couple of diode drops inserted into the positive lead together with a pair of anti-RFI ferrite tubes. (None of these are essential - I tend to 'over-engineer' stuff like this) The ThinkPad Li-Ion battery has four connections - 2 are supply terminals, the other two are sense lines normally connected to a microprocessor inside the battery case. These latter two terminals are left unconnected, and the ThinkPad isn't any the wiser. It then won't supply any on-screen 'battery-state info' - but who cares ? Should the lead-acid battery voltage ever drop below c.10 volts, the TP will power down in the normal controlled manner. To enable monitoring of the actual voltage being applied to the motherboard, but also with a view to fitting a back-up lead-acid gel-cell, I ran a third flying lead directly to the (original Li-Ion) battery positive terminal with nothing added. When this wire was scoped, the voltage to the motherboard proved to be clean, so nothing further was added to this Mk.I homebrew adapter. If I had seen any noise on the positive line, then I'd have inserted a couple of ferrite toroid inductors (the kind you'd find inside a PC power supply) in the lines to iron-out any noise. Of course, when using these there's always the possibility of creating spikes during switch-off, but a couple of back-to-back 15v zeners (with resistor) strapped across the output terminals would have solved that. When setting-up clipping zeners, you want the zeners to be non-conducting during normal use, but conducting in the presence of any transient spike which exceeds their threshold voltage. Low wattage jobs are therefore ok. You don't actually need to use zeners to clip a voltage - a string of 25x silicon diodes would do the same job, but that would not be a particularly elegant solution ! The bottom-line is "it can be done" - just how much of a production you make of doing so is really up to yourself. If using £25 quid laptops one can afford to cut a few corners - but if you insist on using a top of the range laptop on board a boat, then I'd ignore everything I've just written, and go buy yourself an inverter .... Colin BTW - when stripping apart a Lithium-Ion battery - do so with care, outside, and with suitable safety gear (glasses etc) - if you pierce the cells they will burn furiously, and can even explode. ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3074 (20080505) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com | 17346|17327|2008-05-05 15:54:58|brentswain38|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|Cook Island used to be cheap. They have a that strange mental illness there called "Religion." A friend was arrested in Penrhyn for taking his shirt off and going for a swim on a sunday( Violating the sabath) Where in the Cooks are you? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. > Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. > Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for diesel. > $55 for 24 beer. > The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing suits > using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud of > them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing the > engineering and construction of these suits closely. > I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly covered. > Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to stop. I > could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. > Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18.50 for bacon and eggs and > toast. > It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride > scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to > dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the wrong > side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. > Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage here. > | 17347|17327|2008-05-05 15:57:17|brentswain38|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|I last met Don in the early 70's but haven't been back to Raro since then. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Howdy, > If you can get a copy, read Don Silk's book, "From Kauri Trees to Sunlit Seas".  Don  was (is?) the harbor master in Rarotonga and wrote a book about the shipping company he started and ran in the South Pacific, operating out of the Cook Islands.  It's a very entertaining read.  Drop in and see if he is still around.  I have never met him but have heard lots of good stories about him.  >   > Enjoy the survey you are doing. > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: mickeyolaf > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 9:20:36 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Cook Islands Trivia > > > I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. > Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. > Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for diesel. > $55 for 24 beer. > The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing suits > using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud of > them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing the > engineering and construction of these suits closely. > I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly covered. > Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to stop. I > could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. > Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18.50 for bacon and eggs and > toast. > It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride > scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to > dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the wrong > side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. > Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage here. > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17348|17342|2008-05-05 16:02:11|brentswain38|Re: Winches|I find a 4 to 1 gear ratio, four turns of the handle for every turn of the drum ,is adequate for the 36. I think Barient 28s would be adequate. I have lewmar 40's, 8 to 1 gear ratio on my 31. No such thing as to big, short of coffee grinders. Go for them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > The question is: would a pair of Barrent 28s be to large for my BS36 > The price is low enough I can afford to by the self tailing kit. > Any one have a handle that fits? > Aaron > | 17349|17297|2008-05-05 16:04:09|brentswain38|Re: Tank level mechanical senders|I've thought about that. Great simple way to go. Go for it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > We are thinking of fitting tank level mechanical senders of the type > with a float that, as it rises and falls, turns a spiral and hence the > gauge needle. Does anyone have any experience or views on these? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 17350|17273|2008-05-05 16:05:59|brentswain38|Re: BS36 Materials quote|No problem above the waterline. Definitely use galv and not black for bulwark pipes. SS is better, but galv is adequate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Is 304 stainless steel good for the bulwark top rails and other things > above the waterline? > James. > > > > Also I would use galvanized 1 1/4" pipe (if not 316 SS) for the > bulwark > > top rails not black pipe as in the quote. > > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > | 17351|17302|2008-05-05 16:12:14|brentswain38|Re: hatch hinges|Be careful I once made reversable hatches. The owner reversed them and propped them open without putting the cotter pin in. One slipped out when the boat heeled suddenly, fell overboard and sank quickly. I haven't made them that way since. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Look at Moonflower's pictures of the hatches - > can place them where you want to catch wind. > > kate > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > What di you think is best, to wold a farely think aluminuim tab on to > > the hatch with a hole for the pin or to bolt a stainless tap onto it > > for the pin? > > > > > | 17352|17300|2008-05-05 16:18:56|brentswain38|Re: 316|You won't see much rust above the waterline on 304 or any relatively non magnetic stainless . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" wrote: > > A bit disappointing to read that there is no fast 100% identification > (?). Does that mean that we take a rusty appearance of the boat for > granted or buy new materials? > > I bought the plans for the BS31 and start slowly slowly slowly (in > Belgium). > Thanks, Ralph > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > Not to sound facetious but does it really matter? What I'm saying > is > > most pipes, valves etc. that I've found in scrap yards are > labelled > > either 304 or 316 etc. If it is for a thru hull for example then > get > > the 316 (and the valve will be marked) but for some things I don't > > think it matters as they won't see that much saltwater. > > > > I may be wrong though but I'm sure I asked the same question to > Brent > > and got a similar type of response. ie. In some places it is > probably > > overkill to go with 316 and any stainless would do. Only you can > > answer if your budget or piece of mind can afford to take a chance > or > > not. If not and it's in an area that needs 316 then "splurge" if > not > > take a chance on the "unknown" SS. > > > > With all of that being said he also taught me to carry a magnet > and > > the less magnetic the SS the "better" it was. Hope this post > didn't > > come across "wrong" I just think that if there's no easy test to > > conclusively determine the series of SS let your wallet and/or > peace > > of mind be your guide. Good luck with your "hunting" and BTw what > > type of boat are you building? > > Rowland > | 17353|17327|2008-05-05 16:23:41|Paul Wilson|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|When I was in Penrhyn I was warned when I checked in to only wear long pants and shirt on Sunday.  It was OK to be seen walking on shore, but only if you were on your way to or from church.  It had much more to do with power and control than religion.  Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 7:54:55 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cook Islands Trivia Cook Island used to be cheap. They have a that strange mental illness there called "Religion." A friend was arrested in Penrhyn for taking his shirt off and going for a swim on a sunday( Violating the sabath) Where in the Cooks are you? Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. > Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. > Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for diesel. > $55 for 24 beer. > The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing suits > using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud of > them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing the > engineering and construction of these suits closely. > I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly covered. > Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to stop. I > could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. > Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18.50 for bacon and eggs and > toast. > It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride > scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to > dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the wrong > side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. > Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage here. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17354|17342|2008-05-05 19:24:14|kingsknight4life|Re: Winches|Brent How about Andersen 28's for the 36? Says the "power ratio" is 9.5 to 1 but the gear ratio is only 1.3 to 1. this is for the ist gear only. http://www.andersenwinches.com/Winches/Standard%20Self-Tailing/28% 20ST.aspx the link is above Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I find a 4 to 1 gear ratio, four turns of the handle for every turn of > the drum ,is adequate for the 36. > I think Barient 28s would be adequate. > I have lewmar 40's, 8 to 1 gear ratio on my 31. No such thing as to > big, short of coffee grinders. Go for them. > Brent > > | 17355|17342|2008-05-05 22:10:04|silascrosby|Re: Winches|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Brent > How about Andersen 28's for the 36? Says the "power ratio" is 9.5 to > 1 but the gear ratio is only 1.3 to 1. this is for the ist gear only. > http://www.andersenwinches.com/Winches/Standard%20Self-Tailing/28% > 20ST.aspx > the link is above > Rowland > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I find a 4 to 1 gear ratio, four turns of the handle for every turn > of > > the drum ,is adequate for the 36. > > I think Barient 28s would be adequate. > > I have lewmar 40's, 8 to 1 gear ratio on my 31. No such thing as > to > > big, short of coffee grinders. Go for them. > > Brent On our 36'er I use Andersen 46's for the jib and 40's for the staysail, both 2 speed. The idea was that the weakest person on board could tack and trim the foresails in the dark, alone, and reef the main(perhaps with someone to tend the mainsheet, if available). This was not the case in our old boat and was frustrating for everyone. Expensive. A home boatbuilder on Whidbey Is. advertised in W. Coast Boat Journal for other builders to organise a 'group purchase'. He was able to get the winches for us at wholesale prices - a huge discount.I bought 7 winches. I think he had to organise an order totalling $30,000 or thereabouts. This was ~ 15 yrs ago. Steve Millar > > > > > | 17356|17327|2008-05-05 22:29:55|silascrosby|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > I last met Don in the early 70's but haven't been back to Raro > since then. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > Howdy, > > If you can get a copy, read Don Silk's book, "From Kauri Trees to > Sunlit Seas". Don was (is?) the harbor master in Rarotonga and > wrote a book about the shipping company he started and ran in the > South Pacific, operating out of the Cook Islands. It's a very > entertaining read. Drop in and see if he is still around. I have > never met him but have heard lots of good stories about him. > > > > Enjoy the survey you are doing. > > Cheers, Paul Brent , what year were you in Raro ? I was there in 1974 when we were sailing from NZ to Vancouver in a 40' Ferro cutter designed by Laurie Davidson named 'Kavenga', a beautiful weatherly boat. The Volvo transmission died halfway from Tauranga to Raro so we took 16 days for the trip. I was 18 y.o. and the three weeks we spent in Raro was the high point of my life up to then.Don Silk was a friend of our skipper and really showed us around. Life was simple and fun( for me). All the yachts had to cast off and move around in the little basin when Silk's trading ship came in, a bit sketchy. Returning , in 1988, with my wife on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' was also fun but in a different way.Our son, Gavin was born 9 months later in Tauranga,NZ( sort of a completed circle).We picked up Charlie Taamo in Raro and took him back to Palmerston Is. where he was the SDA pastor. We took a cargo of oranges and vegetables for the various Marster families on Palmerston, but we kept the cockroaches. Steve Millar > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: mickeyolaf > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 9:20:36 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Cook Islands Trivia > > > > > > I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. > > Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. > > Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for > diesel. > > $55 for 24 beer. > > The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing > suits > > using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud > of > > them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing > the > > engineering and construction of these suits closely. > > I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly > covered. > > Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to > stop. I > > could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. > > Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18.50 for bacon and eggs > and > > toast. > > It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride > > scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to > > dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the > wrong > > side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. > > Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage > here. > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17357|17342|2008-05-06 03:50:13|kingsknight4life|Re: Winches|The reason I'm asking is cuz I bought 2 brand new 28's for $1000 a couple yrs ago. Still in the wrappers I always thought if they were too small I could sell them? Rowland| 17358|17327|2008-05-06 03:51:44|mickeyolaf|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|I'm in Rarotonga. There's a bilge keeler up on the hard today. Similar to a Fortune 30. Center cockpit aft cabin. I don't think the dress code is as stict these days. You can wear shorts and t-shirt to church but only a tourist would do so. I went to a Christian church yesterday to hear the singing. It was like a southern US revival. Vahinis in straw hats decorated with shells and flowers singing in voices louder than any church choir I've ever heard. It's hard to describe Raro. My Nikon cannot replicate the colors. The ocean here is what the color blue is meant to be. Rarotonga is beach dogs, the smell of wood smoke, scooters, green mountain peaks, chickens everywhere, sun then rain then sun, dark eyes and long black hair. I know why sailors jumped ship. What are people like here? I went into a store today to buy one of the those colourful men's island shirts for my son. They didn't have his size. The vahine running the store said she would make him one and told me to come back on Saturday and pick it up. Try that at Wal Mart. Can u claim refuge status from Canada? I might have to stay here. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Cook Island used to be cheap. They have a that strange mental > illness there called "Religion." A friend was arrested in Penrhyn > for taking his shirt off and going for a swim on a sunday( Violating > the sabath) Where in the Cooks are you? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. > > Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. > > Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for > diesel. > > $55 for 24 beer. > > The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing > suits > > using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud > of > > them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing > the > > engineering and construction of these suits closely. > > I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly > covered. > > Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to > stop. I > > could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. > > Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18.50 for bacon and eggs > and > > toast. > > It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride > > scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to > > dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the > wrong > > side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. > > Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage > here. > > > | 17359|17342|2008-05-06 04:04:24|mickeyolaf|Re: Winches|I put my two 28's on my mast. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > The reason I'm asking is cuz I bought 2 brand new 28's for $1000 a > couple yrs ago. Still in the wrappers I always thought if they were too > small I could sell them? > Rowland > | 17360|17327|2008-05-06 08:10:17|Shane Duncan|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|i''m a Kiwi and I've spent a bit of time in the Cook  Islands Sure they like a bit of Jesus every now and then but they have to be far and wide the most easy going people I've have ever met   I was up there for a wedding about a 8 months ago I was instructed to buy some lemons for the wedding cake   i went to the local super market only to find that they didn't sell lemons anyway the woman serving me went out side behind the shop pulled 3 limes of a tree and said will these do?   i offered to pay but she just looked at me and said don't be silly     ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 4:54:55 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cook Islands Trivia Cook Island used to be cheap.  They have a that strange mental illness there called "Religion." A friend was arrested in Penrhyn for taking his shirt off and going for a swim on a sunday( Violating the sabath) Where in the Cooks are you? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. > Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. > Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for diesel. > $55 for 24 beer. > The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing suits > using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud of > them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing the > engineering and construction of these suits closely. > I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly covered. > Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to stop. I > could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. > Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18..50 for bacon and eggs and > toast. >  It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride > scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to > dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the wrong > side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. > Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage here. > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17361|17361|2008-05-06 09:40:43|pepad67|BS36 - available load|Hello, I would like to know what is avalable load on BS 36? ...I mean how many thinks a can load on this boat. ...by load a mean everything, that is not par of boat itself - people, water, fuel, food, anchors, anchor chains, and so on, and so on... ...1500 kg ? 2000 kg ? ... 2500 kg? ...or how many kg ? ...I ask because I'm thinking about building this boat but I don't know if it is suitable for 2 adylts, 2 children and the stuff twe would like to have on the boat. thank you dodo| 17362|17361|2008-05-06 11:38:30|kingsknight4life|Re: BS36 - available load|Hi I think it would do just fine but then agan I'm building one for the 3 of us. Me, my wife and a dog. I'm pretty sure that there are more than one family living aboard their 36 footer. How big of a packrat are you and how much stuff do you need? The trick is to get by with less, I'm sure that a 50 ft. boat is too small for some people and for some a 36 footer is huge. Rowland| 17363|17361|2008-05-06 12:44:10|brentswain38|Re: BS36 - available load|It takes roughly 1,000 lbs to put the 36 an inch down in the water. Packrats have loaded her down up to 8 inches and still cruised, slower, but no complaints. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pepad67" wrote: > > Hello, > I would like to know what is avalable load on BS 36? ...I mean how > many thinks a can load on this boat. > > ...by load a mean everything, that is not par of boat itself - people, > water, fuel, food, anchors, anchor chains, and so on, and so on... > > ...1500 kg ? 2000 kg ? ... 2500 kg? ...or how many kg ? > > ...I ask because I'm thinking about building this boat but I don't > know if it is suitable for 2 adylts, 2 children and the stuff twe > would like to have on the boat. > > thank you > dodo > | 17364|17327|2008-05-06 12:54:17|brentswain38|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|Great place , wonderful people. The religion is not laid on the tourists in the south much, where tourists are exempt, but the north is far more fanatic. That may have changed now that they are flying tourists up there. They are some of the cleanest, friendliest islands anywhere. When the health inspector makes his rounds and someones yard is not spotless, and tidy , he gets a fine. We could use a bit of that elsewhere. One health inspector said to me" Someone imported these Mina birds here and now we are overun with them in Raro." I said" That is probably why you have no flies on the high islands, but swarms of them on atolls. Flies have no natural enemies on atolls as seabirds, the only birds there are not interested in insects. If you let a few mina birds loose on Manuae, then checked out the fly situation in a couple of years , you may find a solution to many of your health problems there." I understand harbour feess have gone up drasticaly there. Can anybody enlighten us on what they are now, in Raro, Aitutaki, and Penrhyn? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > i''m a Kiwi and I've spent a bit of time in the Cook  Islands > Sure they like a bit of Jesus every now and then > but they have to be far and wide the most easy going people I've have ever met >   > I was up there for a wedding about a 8 months ago > I was instructed to buy some lemons for the wedding cake >   > i went to the local super market only to find that they didn't sell lemons > anyway the woman serving me went out side behind the shop > pulled 3 limes of a tree and said will these do? >   > i offered to pay but she just looked at me and said don't be silly >   > > >   > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 4:54:55 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cook Islands Trivia > > Cook Island used to be cheap.  They have a that strange mental > illness there called "Religion." A friend was arrested in Penrhyn > for taking his shirt off and going for a swim on a sunday( Violating > the sabath) Where in the Cooks are you? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. > > Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. > > Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for > diesel. > > $55 for 24 beer. > > The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing > suits > > using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud > of > > them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing > the > > engineering and construction of these suits closely. > > I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly > covered. > > Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to > stop. I > > could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. > > Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18..50 for bacon and eggs > and > > toast. > >  It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride > > scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to > > dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the > wrong > > side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. > > Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage > here. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17365|17342|2008-05-06 12:56:46|brentswain38|Re: Winches|What is the power ratio for the second gear? My first gear is 1 to 1 but second is 8 to 1, plenty of power. 4 to 1 in second is minimum. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Brent > How about Andersen 28's for the 36? Says the "power ratio" is 9.5 to > 1 but the gear ratio is only 1.3 to 1. this is for the ist gear only. > http://www.andersenwinches.com/Winches/Standard%20Self-Tailing/28% > 20ST.aspx > the link is above > Rowland > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I find a 4 to 1 gear ratio, four turns of the handle for every turn > of > > the drum ,is adequate for the 36. > > I think Barient 28s would be adequate. > > I have lewmar 40's, 8 to 1 gear ratio on my 31. No such thing as > to > > big, short of coffee grinders. Go for them. > > Brent > > > > > | 17366|17327|2008-05-06 13:02:28|brentswain38|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|I was in Raro in November 73 in my early 20's singlehanding my first boat , a 36 ft ferro sloop, to New Zealand. Kavenga was bought by a friend in Vancouver . She made it out to many of the Bluewater cruising club rendezvous in the early 80's. She mat still be in Vancouver. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > I last met Don in the early 70's but haven't been back to Raro > > since then. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > > wrote: > > > > > > Howdy, > > > If you can get a copy, read Don Silk's book, "From Kauri Trees to > > Sunlit Seas". Don was (is?) the harbor master in Rarotonga and > > wrote a book about the shipping company he started and ran in the > > South Pacific, operating out of the Cook Islands. It's a very > > entertaining read. Drop in and see if he is still around. I have > > never met him but have heard lots of good stories about him. > > > > > > Enjoy the survey you are doing. > > > Cheers, Paul > > Brent , what year were you in Raro ? I was there in 1974 when we were > sailing from NZ to Vancouver in a 40' Ferro cutter designed by Laurie > Davidson named 'Kavenga', a beautiful weatherly boat. The Volvo > transmission died halfway from Tauranga to Raro so we took 16 days for > the trip. I was 18 y.o. and the three weeks we spent in Raro was the > high point of my life up to then.Don Silk was a friend of our skipper > and really showed us around. Life was simple and fun( for me). All the > yachts had to cast off and move around in the little basin when Silk's > trading ship came in, a bit sketchy. > Returning , in 1988, with my wife on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' was > also fun but in a different > way.Our son, Gavin was born 9 months later in Tauranga,NZ( sort of a > completed circle).We picked up Charlie Taamo in Raro and took him back > to Palmerston Is. where he was the SDA pastor. We took a cargo of > oranges and vegetables for the various Marster families on Palmerston, > but we kept the cockroaches. > Steve Millar > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: mickeyolaf > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 9:20:36 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Cook Islands Trivia > > > > > > > > > I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. > > > Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. > > > Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for > > diesel. > > > $55 for 24 beer. > > > The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing > > suits > > > using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud > > of > > > them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing > > the > > > engineering and construction of these suits closely. > > > I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly > > covered. > > > Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to > > stop. I > > > could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. > > > Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18.50 for bacon and eggs > > and > > > toast. > > > It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride > > > scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to > > > dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the > > wrong > > > side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. > > > Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage > > here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > > _______________ > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 17367|17342|2008-05-06 13:04:08|brentswain38|Re: Winches|Check the max gear ratio . It is probably better than 4 to 1 .If it is ,keep them and use them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > The reason I'm asking is cuz I bought 2 brand new 28's for $1000 a > couple yrs ago. Still in the wrappers I always thought if they were too > small I could sell them? > Rowland > | 17368|17368|2008-05-06 15:55:29|mickeyolaf|Removable Bowsprit|There's an interesting article in Cruising World this month about installing a removable bowsprit that u could fly a cruising shute from. They look easy to make and when u pull into a dock u just unbolt it and slide it back to reduce the per foot charge. How many of u with finished boats use a cruising chute?Bowsprits?| 17369|17361|2008-05-06 16:52:47|Paul Wilson|Re: BS36 - available load|I have sailed around overloaded more than most and figure I was about 2 inches lower than I really would have liked.  That would be about 2000 pounds or 1000 kg  more than I should have to keep it simple.  I don't think you would ever have enough room to fit 2500kg on board.  Everybody is different, but personally I would figure on 2000 kg as a figure to go by for everything.  That is for two people and this doesn't include your water or fuel.  To explain my reasoning, I have a fin keeler so all the tanks are in the keel and large.  About 120 gallons of water and 90 gallons of fuel.  Because the tanks are in the keel, there is much more room on board than the usual bilge keeler with tanks under the settees.   I stayed in Fiji and Tonga for almost 8 years and because of this, I had lots of tools, spares, paint, dive gear, anchors, etc.  If I was hitting a major center every year, it would have been different.  I tried to carry the parts and tools to fix things but not necessarily the parts.  For instance, I never had a spare starter motor but when my starter motor failed, I rebuilt it myself with new bearings.  When I bought the new bearings for it, I would buy a spare set as well, so that next time, I would be prepared.  If I needed one bolt for something, I would buy two so I had a spare.  Gradually my boat filled with nuts, bolts, o-rings, seals, etc but had less room for other things.  I was thinking about 3 years ago that my gearbox was on the way out so I bought a rebuild kit for it.  Now I have been carrying around a rebuild kit plus the pullers and bearing splitters for the last three years.  It has never been used, but it has given me some peace of mind, so been worth it.  The boats that do a one year circuit from NZ to Tonga or Fiji seem to have very little on board.  Probably too little since a lot of them would get stuck waiting for parts.  I could have carried a lot less.  My wife and I love reading but we carried around far too many books.   Books are extremely heavy and you can do book swaps in most places.  When I left Canada, I listened to everybody else and left Canada with far too much food.  I was eating it still 2 years later.  I now sail with very little food aboard, maybe 4 - 6 weeks worth since you can buy it anywhere.   As long as you don't demand the foods from home, you will be happy.    Pasta and rice can keep you going if you get stuck.  Lastly and most important, rum and whisky takes up much less room than beer and doesn't require any fancy mix :).  Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: pepad67 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2008 1:40:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] BS36 - available load Hello, I would like to know what is avalable load on BS 36? ...I mean how many thinks a can load on this boat. ...by load a mean everything, that is not par of boat itself - people, water, fuel, food, anchors, anchor chains, and so on, and so on... ...1500 kg ? 2000 kg ? ... 2500 kg? ...or how many kg ? ...I ask because I'm thinking about building this boat but I don't know if it is suitable for 2 adylts, 2 children and the stuff twe would like to have on the boat. thank you dodo ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17370|17361|2008-05-06 17:42:11|martin demers|Re: BS36 - available load|HI Brent, if someone expect to carry enough weight to keep his boat 8in. down, should he paint the water line on his boat higher? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:44:09 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS36 - available load > > > It takes roughly 1,000 lbs to put the 36 an inch down in the water. > Packrats have loaded her down up to 8 inches and still cruised, > slower, but no complaints. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pepad67" > wrote: >> >> Hello, >> I would like to know what is avalable load on BS 36? ...I mean > how >> many thinks a can load on this boat. >> >> ...by load a mean everything, that is not par of boat itself - > people, >> water, fuel, food, anchors, anchor chains, and so on, and so on... >> >> ...1500 kg ? 2000 kg ? ... 2500 kg? ...or how many kg ? >> >> ...I ask because I'm thinking about building this boat but I don't >> know if it is suitable for 2 adylts, 2 children and the stuff twe >> would like to have on the boat. >> >> thank you >> dodo >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ Branchez-vous à Windows Live Messenger et inscrivez-vous afin de courir la chance de gagner 1000$ chaque jour jusqu’au 12 mai. Visitez connectezetgagnez.ca http://g.msn.ca/ca55/221| 17371|17361|2008-05-06 17:49:15|polaris041|Re: BS36 - available load|Hi Brent; May I ask. In your book you state the BS36 has a draft of 5'10'' and a displacement of 17,280lbs. Is this 'empty weight' or does it include any charge and if so how much? pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It takes roughly 1,000 lbs to put the 36 an inch down in the water. > Packrats have loaded her down up to 8 inches and still cruised, > slower, but no complaints. > Brent | 17372|17342|2008-05-06 21:05:28|kingsknight4life|Re: Winches|Brent Gear ratio for 2nd speed is 3.7 to 1 and power ratio is 26.5 to 1. Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > What is the power ratio for the second gear? My first gear is 1 to 1 > but second is 8 to 1, plenty of power. 4 to 1 in second is minimum. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > Brent > > How about Andersen 28's for the 36? Says the "power ratio" is 9.5 > to > > 1 but the gear ratio is only 1.3 to 1. this is for the ist gear > only. > > http://www.andersenwinches.com/Winches/Standard%20Self-Tailing/28% > > 20ST.aspx > > the link is above > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I find a 4 to 1 gear ratio, four turns of the handle for every > turn > > of > > > the drum ,is adequate for the 36. > > > I think Barient 28s would be adequate. > > > I have lewmar 40's, 8 to 1 gear ratio on my 31. No such thing > as > > to > > > big, short of coffee grinders. Go for them. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > | 17373|17342|2008-05-07 01:23:38|brentswain38|Re: Winches|That should do the job. Use them Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Brent > Gear ratio for 2nd speed is 3.7 to 1 and power ratio is 26.5 to 1. > Rowland > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > What is the power ratio for the second gear? My first gear is 1 to > 1 > > but second is 8 to 1, plenty of power. 4 to 1 in second is minimum. > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > Brent > > > How about Andersen 28's for the 36? Says the "power ratio" is 9.5 > > to > > > 1 but the gear ratio is only 1.3 to 1. this is for the ist gear > > only. > > > http://www.andersenwinches.com/Winches/Standard%20Self- Tailing/28% > > > 20ST.aspx > > > the link is above > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I find a 4 to 1 gear ratio, four turns of the handle for every > > turn > > > of > > > > the drum ,is adequate for the 36. > > > > I think Barient 28s would be adequate. > > > > I have lewmar 40's, 8 to 1 gear ratio on my 31. No such thing > > as > > > to > > > > big, short of coffee grinders. Go for them. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 17374|17361|2008-05-07 01:24:51|brentswain38|Re: BS36 - available load|That is empty weight. I wouldnt try to guess what anyone will end up putting aboard. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Hi Brent; > May I ask. In your book you state the BS36 has a draft of 5'10'' and a > displacement of 17,280lbs. > Is this 'empty weight' or does it include any charge and if so how much? > > pol > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > It takes roughly 1,000 lbs to put the 36 an inch down in the water. > > Packrats have loaded her down up to 8 inches and still cruised, > > slower, but no complaints. > > Brent > | 17375|17361|2008-05-07 01:26:05|brentswain38|Re: BS36 - available load|Yes , the little wavelets in any harbour will maintain growth up to 4 inches above where she actually floats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > HI Brent, > if someone expect to carry enough weight to keep his boat 8in. down, should he paint the water line on his boat higher? > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:44:09 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS36 - available load > > > > > > It takes roughly 1,000 lbs to put the 36 an inch down in the water. > > Packrats have loaded her down up to 8 inches and still cruised, > > slower, but no complaints. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pepad67" > > wrote: > >> > >> Hello, > >> I would like to know what is avalable load on BS 36? ...I mean > > how > >> many thinks a can load on this boat. > >> > >> ...by load a mean everything, that is not par of boat itself - > > people, > >> water, fuel, food, anchors, anchor chains, and so on, and so on... > >> > >> ...1500 kg ? 2000 kg ? ... 2500 kg? ...or how many kg ? > >> > >> ...I ask because I'm thinking about building this boat but I don't > >> know if it is suitable for 2 adylts, 2 children and the stuff twe > >> would like to have on the boat. > >> > >> thank you > >> dodo > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Branchez-vous à Windows Live Messenger et inscrivez-vous afin de courir la chance de gagner 1000$ chaque jour jusqu'au 12 mai. Visitez connectezetgagnez.ca > http://g.msn.ca/ca55/221 > | 17376|17361|2008-05-07 01:33:13|brentswain38|Re: BS36 - available load|Most twin keelers have a large water tank below the floor , between the keels and have fuel tanks either in the top of the twin keels , under the pilothouse floor , or both. None have any below the settees except my boat which has one 10 gallon tank under the back of one. People who dump their Hurth trannys for a big twin disk have far less chance of a breakdown. My engine driven alternator welder has been the best $24 I ever spent on tools. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I have sailed around overloaded more than most and figure I was about 2 inches lower than I really would have liked.  That would be about 2000 pounds or 1000 kg  more than I should have to keep it simple.  I don't think you would ever have enough room to fit 2500kg on board.  Everybody is different, but personally I would figure on 2000 kg as a figure to go by for everything.  That is for two people and this doesn't include your water or fuel.  > To explain my reasoning, I have a fin keeler so all the tanks are in the keel and large.  About 120 gallons of water and 90 gallons of fuel.  Because the tanks are in the keel, there is much more room on board than the usual bilge keeler with tanks under the settees.   I stayed in Fiji and Tonga for almost 8 years and because of this, I had lots of tools, spares, paint, dive gear, anchors, etc.  If I was hitting a major center every year, it would have been different.  I tried to carry the parts and tools to fix things but not necessarily the parts.  For instance, I never had a spare starter motor but when my starter motor failed, I rebuilt it myself with new bearings.  When I bought the new bearings for it, I would buy a spare set as well, so that next time, I would be prepared.  If I needed one bolt for something, I would buy two so I had a spare.  Gradually my boat filled with nuts, bolts, o-rings, seals, etc but had less room for other > things.  I was thinking about 3 years ago that my gearbox was on the way out so I bought a rebuild kit for it.  Now I have been carrying around a rebuild kit plus the pullers and bearing splitters for the last three years.  It has never been used, but it has given me some peace of mind, so been worth it.  The boats that do a one year circuit from NZ to Tonga or Fiji seem to have very little on board.  Probably too little since a lot of them would get stuck waiting for parts.  > I could have carried a lot less.  My wife and I love reading but we carried around far too many books.   Books are extremely heavy and you can do book swaps in most places.  When I left Canada, I listened to everybody else and left Canada with far too much food.  I was eating it still 2 years later.  I now sail with very little food aboard, maybe 4 - 6 weeks worth since you can buy it anywhere.   As long as you don't demand the foods from home, you will be happy.    Pasta and rice can keep you going if you get stuck.  Lastly and most important, rum and whisky takes up much less room than beer and doesn't require any fancy mix :).  > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: pepad67 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2008 1:40:41 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] BS36 - available load > > > Hello, > I would like to know what is avalable load on BS 36? ...I mean how > many thinks a can load on this boat. > > ...by load a mean everything, that is not par of boat itself - people, > water, fuel, food, anchors, anchor chains, and so on, and so on... > > ...1500 kg ? 2000 kg ? ... 2500 kg? ...or how many kg ? > > ...I ask because I'm thinking about building this boat but I don't > know if it is suitable for 2 adylts, 2 children and the stuff twe > would like to have on the boat. > > thank you > dodo > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17377|17361|2008-05-07 02:10:40|Paul Wilson|Re: BS36 - available load|Hey Brent, you are the master.  I stand corrected.  I was pretty sure the few bilge keelers I were on had tanks under the settees but I guess I am wrong.  I know Winston's first boat had a fuel tank under the cockpit.  I know he didn't have a bilge keeler but he had no room for fuel below the floors.  Either way, the large tanks carry a lot of weight.  If I was doing everything again, I would go definitely go for the Twin Disc.  The Hurth's are touchy when it comes to the gear shift alignment and many people have screwed them up by having them slip by not having them fully engaged.  That was my problem but I guess I caught it in time. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2008 5:33:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS36 - available load Most twin keelers have a large water tank below the floor , between the keels and have fuel tanks either in the top of the twin keels , under the pilothouse floor , or both. None have any below the settees except my boat which has one 10 gallon tank under the back of one. People who dump their Hurth trannys for a big twin disk have far less chance of a breakdown. My engine driven alternator welder has been the best $24 I ever spent on tools. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I have sailed around overloaded more than most and figure I was about 2 inches lower than I really would have liked.  That would be about 2000 pounds or 1000 kg  more than I should have to keep it simple.  I don't think you would ever have enough room to fit 2500kg on board.  Everybody is different, but personally I would figure on 2000 kg as a figure to go by for everything.  That is for two people and this doesn't include your water or fuel.  > To explain my reasoning, I have a fin keeler so all the tanks are in the keel and large.  About 120 gallons of water and 90 gallons of fuel.  Because the tanks are in the keel, there is much more room on board than the usual bilge keeler with tanks under the settees.   I stayed in Fiji and Tonga for almost 8 years and because of this, I had lots of tools, spares, paint, dive gear, anchors, etc.  If I was hitting a major center every year, it would have been different.  I tried to carry the parts and tools to fix things but not necessarily the parts.  For instance, I never had a spare starter motor but when my starter motor failed, I rebuilt it myself with new bearings.  When I bought the new bearings for it, I would buy a spare set as well, so that next time, I would be prepared.  If I needed one bolt for something, I would buy two so I had a spare.  Gradually my boat filled with nuts, bolts, o-rings, seals, etc but had less room for other > things.  I was thinking about 3 years ago that my gearbox was on the way out so I bought a rebuild kit for it.  Now I have been carrying around a rebuild kit plus the pullers and bearing splitters for the last three years.  It has never been used, but it has given me some peace of mind, so been worth it.  The boats that do a one year circuit from NZ to Tonga or Fiji seem to have very little on board.  Probably too little since a lot of them would get stuck waiting for parts.  > I could have carried a lot less.  My wife and I love reading but we carried around far too many books.   Books are extremely heavy and you can do book swaps in most places.  When I left Canada, I listened to everybody else and left Canada with far too much food.  I was eating it still 2 years later.  I now sail with very little food aboard, maybe 4 - 6 weeks worth since you can buy it anywhere.   As long as you don't demand the foods from home, you will be happy.    Pasta and rice can keep you going if you get stuck.  Lastly and most important, rum and whisky takes up much less room than beer and doesn't require any fancy mix :).  > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: pepad67 > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2008 1:40:41 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] BS36 - available load > > > Hello, > I would like to know what is avalable load on BS 36? ...I mean how > many thinks a can load on this boat. > > ...by load a mean everything, that is not par of boat itself - people, > water, fuel, food, anchors, anchor chains, and so on, and so on... > > ...1500 kg ? 2000 kg ? ... 2500 kg? ...or how many kg ? > > ...I ask because I'm thinking about building this boat but I don't > know if it is suitable for 2 adylts, 2 children and the stuff twe > would like to have on the boat. > > thank you > dodo > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ ____________ ___ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17378|17361|2008-05-07 14:17:26|brentswain38|Re: BS36 - available load|Winston's big fuel tank under the cockpit is a bad idea. The key to stopping hobby horseing when going towindward is keeping weight out of the ends. A 400 lb fuel tank in the stern is a big mistake. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hey Brent, you are the master.  I stand corrected.  I was pretty sure the few bilge keelers I were on had tanks under the settees but I guess I am wrong.  I know Winston's first boat had a fuel tank under the cockpit.  I know he didn't have a bilge keeler but he had no room for fuel below the floors.  Either way, the large tanks carry a lot of weight.  > If I was doing everything again, I would go definitely go for the Twin Disc.  The Hurth's are touchy when it comes to the gear shift alignment and many people have screwed them up by having them slip by not having them fully engaged.  That was my problem but I guess I caught it in time. > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2008 5:33:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS36 - available load > > > Most twin keelers have a large water tank below the floor , between > the keels and have fuel tanks either in the top of the twin keels , > under the pilothouse floor , or both. None have any below the > settees except my boat which has one 10 gallon tank under the back > of one. > People who dump their Hurth trannys for a big twin disk have far > less chance of a breakdown. > My engine driven alternator welder has been the best $24 I ever > spent on tools. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > I have sailed around overloaded more than most and figure I was > about 2 inches lower than I really would have liked.  That would be > about 2000 pounds or 1000 kg  more than I should have to keep it > simple.  I don't think you would ever have enough room to fit 2500kg > on board.  Everybody is different, but personally I would figure on > 2000 kg as a figure to go by for everything.  That is for two people > and this doesn't include your water or fuel.  > > To explain my reasoning, I have a fin keeler so all the tanks are > in the keel and large.  About 120 gallons of water and 90 gallons of > fuel.  Because the tanks are in the keel, there is much more room on > board than the usual bilge keeler with tanks under the settees.   I > stayed in Fiji and Tonga for almost 8 years and because of this, I > had lots of tools, spares, paint, dive gear, anchors, etc.  If I was > hitting a major center every year, it would have been different.  I > tried to carry the parts and tools to fix things but not necessarily > the parts.  For instance, I never had a spare starter motor but when > my starter motor failed, I rebuilt it myself with new bearings.  > When I bought the new bearings for it, I would buy a spare set as > well, so that next time, I would be prepared.  If I needed one bolt > for something, I would buy two so I had a spare.  Gradually my > boat filled with nuts, bolts, o-rings, seals, etc but had less room > for other > > things.  I was thinking about 3 years ago that my gearbox was on > the way out so I bought a rebuild kit for it.  Now I have been > carrying around a rebuild kit plus the pullers and bearing splitters > for the last three years.  It has never been used, but it has given > me some peace of mind, so been worth it.  The boats that do a one > year circuit from NZ to Tonga or Fiji seem to have very little on > board.  Probably too little since a lot of them would get stuck > waiting for parts.  > > I could have carried a lot less.  My wife and I love reading but > we carried around far too many books.   Books are extremely heavy > and you can do book swaps in most places.  When I left Canada, I > listened to everybody else and left Canada with far too much food.  > I was eating it still 2 years later.  I now sail with very little > food aboard, maybe 4 - 6 weeks worth since you can buy it > anywhere.   As long as you don't demand the foods from home, you > will be happy.    Pasta and rice can keep you going if you get > stuck.  Lastly and most important, rum and whisky takes up much less > room than beer and doesn't require any fancy mix :).  > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: pepad67 > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2008 1:40:41 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] BS36 - available load > > > > > > Hello, > > I would like to know what is avalable load on BS 36? ...I mean how > > many thinks a can load on this boat. > > > > ...by load a mean everything, that is not par of boat itself - > people, > > water, fuel, food, anchors, anchor chains, and so on, and so on... > > > > ...1500 kg ? 2000 kg ? ... 2500 kg? ...or how many kg ? > > > > ...I ask because I'm thinking about building this boat but I don't > > know if it is suitable for 2 adylts, 2 children and the stuff twe > > would like to have on the boat. > > > > thank you > > dodo > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > ____________ ___ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17379|17379|2008-05-07 20:44:04|James Pronk|Interior Plywood|I have found a place that is selling old plywood signs. It is good exterior, sign grade plywood, new some of it is $90 a sheet. The prices are, 1/2 4x8 $15 and 3/8 4x8 $10. It all has been painted and there are some mounting holes in them but it is all in good shape. How much plywood have some of you used in the interior of your boats and would this plywood be too heavy? It might take alot of paint to cover some of the adds. Thank you, James.| 17380|17379|2008-05-07 22:50:45|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Interior Plywood|Even the best sign board has some degradation if it has been in the outdoors. So with some rot spores already in it how long of a shelf life is left in a damo enviroment. MDO sign board is a lot cheaper then $90 in these parts. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I have found a place that is selling old plywood signs. It is good > exterior, sign grade plywood, new some of it is $90 a sheet. > The prices are, 1/2 4x8 $15 and 3/8 4x8 $10. It all has been painted > and there are some mounting holes in them but it is all in good shape. > How much plywood have some of you used in the interior of your boats > and would this plywood be too heavy? It might take alot of paint to > cover some of the adds. > Thank you, James. > | 17381|17327|2008-05-08 16:28:03|mickeyolaf|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|Don Silk was on Cook Islands TV last night speaking to the Island Transportation Council. There is a movement here to make scooter riders wear helmets. Many feel if u want to crack your coconut open its your own decision and don't want any more regulation. Don is quite elderly now but well spoken. He has retired as Harbormaster. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > I last met Don in the early 70's but haven't been back to Raro > since then. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > Howdy, > > If you can get a copy, read Don Silk's book, "From Kauri Trees to > Sunlit Seas".  Don  was (is?) the harbor master in Rarotonga and > wrote a book about the shipping company he started and ran in the > South Pacific, operating out of the Cook Islands.  It's a very > entertaining read.  Drop in and see if he is still around.  I have > never met him but have heard lots of good stories about him.  > >   > > Enjoy the survey you are doing. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: mickeyolaf > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 9:20:36 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Cook Islands Trivia > > > > > > I'm in the Cooks right now. Only 3 offshore boats here. One a cat. > > Beautiful spot. Large reef, bigger breakers. > > Prices are high. $2.89 for a liter of milk. $2.00 a liter for > diesel. > > $55 for 24 beer. > > The Kiwi women here have developed a method of making bathing > suits > > using only two shoelaces. Origiami bikinis. Brent would be proud > of > > them for recycling and the minimal use of material. I am studing > the > > engineering and construction of these suits closely. > > I've never seen tatooing like here. Some Maori are completly > covered. > > Those of u that make it offshore this is a wonderful place to > stop. I > > could live here except for the cyclone season. Water is potable. > > Restaurants are twice U.S. prices, ie $18.50 for bacon and eggs > and > > toast. > > It appears to be a place of complete racial harmony. Most ride > > scooters due to fuel prices. A bit of a dangerous practice due to > > dogs chasing the bikes and Americans/Canadians driving on the > wrong > > side of the road. Most tourists are Kiwis. > > Time for my beach walk and further study of the fabric shortage > here. > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17382|17379|2008-05-08 19:17:47|brentswain38|Re: Interior Plywood|Sounds like an excellent deal. The inside of a well insulated steel hull is very dry so don't worry about it. It doesn't really take that much paint to cover signs as the wood doesn't soak up anymore paint,being painted already. A coat of undercoat reduces the amount it takes to get good coverage. That can sometimes be found free at recycling centres. It takes a lot of plywod to do an interior so get lots. What you have left over will beeasy to sell at that price. It's easy to underestimate how much you need, hard to overestimate.The thicknesses sounds perfect for most interior work. Degradation of the pocket book kills far more cruising dreams that degradation of wood.Be resourceful, not foolish. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Even the best sign board has some degradation if it has been in the > outdoors. So with some rot spores already in it how long of a shelf > life is left in a damo enviroment. MDO sign board is a lot cheaper > then $90 in these parts. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > wrote: > > > > I have found a place that is selling old plywood signs. It is good > > exterior, sign grade plywood, new some of it is $90 a sheet. > > The prices are, 1/2 4x8 $15 and 3/8 4x8 $10. It all has been > painted > > and there are some mounting holes in them but it is all in good > shape. > > How much plywood have some of you used in the interior of your > boats > > and would this plywood be too heavy? It might take alot of paint to > > cover some of the adds. > > Thank you, James. > > > | 17383|17327|2008-05-09 03:20:12|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|A bit off subject but on several trips to Thailand i have been led to believe that before the motorbike the biggest cause of accidental death was coconuts. Perhaps one should wear a helmet while walking in the palms. mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17385|17379|2008-05-09 13:17:14|James Pronk|Re: Interior Plywood|Thanks for the words of wisdom Brent. James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Sounds like an excellent deal. The inside of a well insulated steel > hull is very dry so don't worry about it. It doesn't really take that > much paint to cover signs as the wood doesn't soak up anymore > paint,being painted already. A coat of undercoat reduces the amount it > takes to get good coverage. That can sometimes be found free at > recycling centres. > It takes a lot of plywod to do an interior so get lots. What you > have left over will beeasy to sell at that price. It's easy to > underestimate how much you need, hard to overestimate.The thicknesses > sounds perfect for most interior work. > Degradation of the pocket book kills far more cruising dreams that > degradation of wood.Be resourceful, not foolish. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: > > > > Even the best sign board has some degradation if it has been in the > > outdoors. So with some rot spores already in it how long of a shelf > > life is left in a damo enviroment. MDO sign board is a lot cheaper > > then $90 in these parts. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > > wrote: > > > > > > I have found a place that is selling old plywood signs. It is good > > > exterior, sign grade plywood, new some of it is $90 a sheet. > > > The prices are, 1/2 4x8 $15 and 3/8 4x8 $10. It all has been > > painted > > > and there are some mounting holes in them but it is all in good > > shape. > > > How much plywood have some of you used in the interior of your > > boats > > > and would this plywood be too heavy? It might take alot of paint to > > > cover some of the adds. > > > Thank you, James. > > > > > > | 17386|17327|2008-05-09 17:49:34|brentswain38|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|I've heard that from many sources in the tropics. I saw a local guy wearing a hardhat full time on Fanning Island --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, BrdbMc@... wrote: > > A bit off subject but on several trips to Thailand i have been led to > believe that before the motorbike the biggest cause of accidental death was > coconuts. Perhaps one should wear a helmet while walking in the palms. > > mikeafloat > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17387|17327|2008-05-09 23:02:14|mickeyolaf|Re: Cook Islands Trivia|I rented a car today. If your front or rear window is broken here it's $2000NZ to replace it. So it is not advisable to park under a coconut tree. I bought the deductable down (for $6NZ) to the minimum of $500 but I'm still gonna look up everytime I park and make sure there's nothing to drop. My luck I would get one on the head as I got out of the car. I had a seagull shit on my head on the Gibson's dock one day when there was 100 feet of dock for that bird to hit instead of my forehead. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've heard that from many sources in the tropics. I saw a local guy > wearing a hardhat full time on Fanning Island > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, BrdbMc@ wrote: > > > > A bit off subject but on several trips to Thailand i have been led to > > believe that before the motorbike the biggest cause of accidental > death was > > coconuts. Perhaps one should wear a helmet while walking in the palms. > > > > mikeafloat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17388|17388|2008-05-11 16:06:18|Gary Prebble|Room for 2....|I will be in Barkley Sound/Bamfield June & July...some of the best fishing/prawning/scenery on the coast. If you would like to experience a Swain 36' bilge keeler I am up for "sharing the costs" by taking 2 aboard by small donation to my sailing kitty. Typically this will be overnighters unless you have your own accommodation. For details contact me off site.... aguysailing@... ...Gary| 17389|17389|2008-05-11 18:08:29|audeojude|Frankenstein steel boat.|Just saw this on ebay.. Looks like it would float and the interior actaually looks like someone put some thought into it. but the outside.. oh man... looks like it is built like a tank :) But for how much it is going for.. who cares how it looks :) lol Pictures http://www.flickr.com/photos/17666301@N05/ ebay page http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Custom-Steel-Ketch-with-77hp-Yanmar-diesel-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ220232052668QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220232052668&| 17390|17389|2008-05-11 19:39:13|Paul Wilson|Re: Frankenstein steel boat.|I love it!!!  It looks like someone could only afford one 6 inch plate at a time. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: audeojude To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:08:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Frankenstein steel boat. Just saw this on ebay.. Looks like it would float and the interior actaually looks like someone put some thought into it. but the outside.. oh man... looks like it is built like a tank :) But for how much it is going for.. who cares how it looks :) lol Pictures http://www.flickr com/photos/ 17666301@ N05/ ebay page http://cgi.ebay com/ebaymotors/ Custom-Steel- Ketch-with- 77hp-Yanmar- diesel-NO- RESERVE_W0QQitem Z220232052668QQc mdZViewItem? hash=item2202320 52668& ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17391|17389|2008-05-12 17:52:07|audeojude|Re: Frankenstein steel boat.|The more I look at it the more I want it especially for the price. It looks like with a couple days work you could just drop her in the water and frankenstein away :) The outside looks really dirty but the inside actually doesn't look bad. Also the engine looks really clean. Whoever built her was a better wood worker than welder though. :) lol I bet you would have more people drop by just to go.. does it really sail.. lol. This is the boat you buy and just go in.. its not enough money to worry about. As long as the boat was safe.. just go cruising. a year and a half from now I might have really looked at it. I'm just not right in the head that I think it looks weirdly cool. It looks like it will go for less than 5000 dollars. Talk about cruising on the cheap.... arrgg.... housing market is really sucking right now. I can't sell my house for a decent price for the near future. :( Bet it sails different on either tack..lol.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I love it!!! It looks like someone could only afford one 6 inch plate at a time. > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: audeojude > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:08:27 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Frankenstein steel boat. > > > Just saw this on ebay.. Looks like it would float and the interior > actaually looks like someone put some thought into it. > but the outside.. oh man... looks like it is built like a tank :) > > But for how much it is going for.. who cares how it looks :) lol > > Pictures > http://www.flickr com/photos/ 17666301@ N05/ > ebay page > http://cgi.ebay com/ebaymotors/ Custom-Steel- Ketch-with- 77hp-Yanmar- diesel-NO- RESERVE_W0QQitem Z220232052668QQc mdZViewItem? hash=item2202320 52668& > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17392|17392|2008-05-12 19:21:22|theboilerflue|propan pipe|hey brent I'm unsure about how i should place that pipe along the cockpit well. how did you couple it into your propane did you put a T or just bend the pipe in at the transom. I found a nice long piece that sould reach right to my stove. Also how much clearence does the prop need from the aperture walls, i'm thinking i need a 14 inch prop with probably less than 16 pitch.| 17393|17273|2008-05-13 03:13:33|polaris041|Re: BS36 Materials quote|Australian steel prices for plate went up by 20% yesterday and bar by 15%. When I commented that I missed the bus on my next order I was enthused to buy now and beat the NEXT imminent rise. Seems you need to spend $s to save $s in this climate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > I gave on of my local Steel dealers in Oregon the Materials list for a > BS36 Twin keel. > > Quantity Description Weight Matl $ Price Each Total > 2 (PLATE A36 3/16) 96 x 432 - - $2116.26 $4232.52 > 1 PLATE A36 3/16 - 48 x 96 245 $77.41 CWT $189.69 $189.69 > 3 SHEET HR 11 GA - 60 x 120 750 $81.55 CWT $203.87 $611.60 > 5 SHEET HR 11 GA - 48 x 96 800 $81.55 CWT $130.48 $652.40 > 1 PLATE A36 1/4 - 96 x 144 980 $91.54 CWT $897.18 $897.18 > 1 (PLATE A36 1/2) 18 x 144 - - $349.61 $349.61 > 10 ANGLE 1 X 1 X 1/8 - 20' 160 $71.84 CWT $11.49 $114.94 > 2 ANGLE 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 X 3/16 - 20' 123 $69.86 CWT $42.90 $85.79 > 14 FLAT BAR 3/8 X 1 - 20' 358 $75.66 CWT $19.37 $271.17 > 1 ROUND HR 2 1/2 - 20' 334 $77.76 CWT $259.56 $259.56 > 4 BLACK PIPE SCH 40 PE 1 1/4 - 21' 191 $198.73 CFT $41.73 $166.94 > Total: 3,941 $7831.40 > > How does this compare to other areas? > | 17394|17394|2008-05-13 08:20:25|Jeff Luke|Air Head plans source|Hey, I read along on the digests and I think I saw that someone made an Air Head style marine head. Was there a source for plans for that or was it off the cuff based on the current product available through airheadtoilet? I am looking to save some money and build one for a 24' fiberglass boat. Thanks. -- -- Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17396|17394|2008-05-13 15:58:12|kingsknight4life|Re: Air Head plans source|Jeff Thre are no plans for the toilet at least not publicly available. People have ben making their own based on the Airhead design, either from info. gathered on the net or firsthand sightings. rowland > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17397|17392|2008-05-13 22:12:25|brentswain38|Re: propan pipe|There is no need to run it all the way to the transom, just inside your propane locker, then bend the end out with a tread on to enable you to thread something onto the end of the thread. On the other end, I put a ball valve, then a 90 to point it at the stove, running under the front end of the cockpit seat. Putting the ball valve outside lets you see it when you are leaving the boat. Inside lets you see it from your bunk, a tossup. It is centred on the front of the cockpit seat corner to protect the corner from chipping, and stop your foot from sliding off the cockpit seat. On your boat I don't think I'd bother with the outside filler for the water tank. Just take the dock hose below and fill it thru the filler that is there. Much simpler. Just put the fuel filler at the stern, inside the propane locker. You need a 2 inch by 1/2 inch flatbar on the iside the stem , from the botom of the anchor well to a couple of feet below the waterline , once the inside weld is done. This can be pieced together from scraps, as any collision would put it under compression with no place to go. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > hey brent I'm unsure about how i should place that pipe along the > cockpit well. how did you couple it into your propane did you put a T > or just bend the pipe in at the transom. I found a nice long piece > that sould reach right to my stove. Also how much clearence does the > prop need from the aperture walls, i'm thinking i need a 14 inch prop > with probably less than 16 pitch. > | 17398|17394|2008-05-13 22:20:52|brentswain38|Re: Air Head plans source|I built mine from those I'd seen. I tried the trap door, but found it much simper to use a stainless pot lid from the thrift store which you lift out before giving birth to a conservative. This requires a half inch high lip around the conservative birth Canal, but drastically simplifies the head. I'm hoping to try dried, well waxed clay for a mold for small fibreglass items, which could be a good way to make a mold for the top of an airhead. Give yourself lots of clearance for heavy duty equipment, at the front end . You don't want it touching bottom. Less for the conservative birth Canal. You don't want to miss it when the boat is well heeled. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Luke" wrote: > > Hey, I read along on the digests and I think I saw that someone made an Air > Head style marine head. Was there a source for plans for that or was it off > the cuff based on the current product available through airheadtoilet? I am > looking to save some money and build one for a 24' fiberglass boat. > > Thanks. > > -- > -- Jeff > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17399|17379|2008-05-13 22:29:20|brentswain38|Re: Interior Plywood|When I was 20 years old and building my first boat, a 36 footer , there were 6 more boats being built around me. They all told me to use only new plywood for my boat. They were horrified when I started using salvaged plywood. I headed for New Zealand at the ripe old age of 23. None of them ever left. Only one had finished his boat, by the time I got back from two years cruising the South Pacific, and had built my second boat. The rest never finished their boats , and most never were finished. They all spent their entire life on the treadmill. At the ripe old age of 20, I had the suspicion that that was where following their advice would have gotten me, had I been naive enough to listen to them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Thanks for the words of wisdom Brent. > James. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Sounds like an excellent deal. The inside of a well insulated steel > > hull is very dry so don't worry about it. It doesn't really take > that > > much paint to cover signs as the wood doesn't soak up anymore > > paint,being painted already. A coat of undercoat reduces the amount > it > > takes to get good coverage. That can sometimes be found free at > > recycling centres. > > It takes a lot of plywod to do an interior so get lots. What you > > have left over will beeasy to sell at that price. It's easy to > > underestimate how much you need, hard to overestimate.The > thicknesses > > sounds perfect for most interior work. > > Degradation of the pocket book kills far more cruising dreams that > > degradation of wood.Be resourceful, not foolish. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > > wrote: > > > > > > Even the best sign board has some degradation if it has been in > the > > > outdoors. So with some rot spores already in it how long of a > shelf > > > life is left in a damo enviroment. MDO sign board is a lot > cheaper > > > then $90 in these parts. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have found a place that is selling old plywood signs. It is > good > > > > exterior, sign grade plywood, new some of it is $90 a sheet. > > > > The prices are, 1/2 4x8 $15 and 3/8 4x8 $10. It all has been > > > painted > > > > and there are some mounting holes in them but it is all in good > > > shape. > > > > How much plywood have some of you used in the interior of your > > > boats > > > > and would this plywood be too heavy? It might take alot of > paint to > > > > cover some of the adds. > > > > Thank you, James. > > > > > > > > > > | 17400|17394|2008-05-14 10:19:31|steve allen|Re: Air Head plans source|I had never heard of the airhead, howver had come across a simple build of the same thing [ somewhere on the web ] for house use. It was a simple ply box, a funnel at the front to catch the liquid, and run it into the liquid storage[a bottle] and then a bucket for the solids. By thwe side was integrated storage for sawdust to add after once you are finished. I though tto build on to try out, but never got around to it. I had intended to add a vent and fant to aid the drying. I think that lat would come to a lot less than the $1000 dollars per unit I just saw on the airhead site. I would be interested to hear how efficient they are brentswain38 wrote: I built mine from those I'd seen. I tried the trap door, but found it much simper to use a stainless pot lid from the thrift store which you lift out before giving birth to a conservative. This requires a half inch high lip around the conservative birth Canal, but drastically simplifies the head. I'm hoping to try dried, well waxed clay for a mold for small fibreglass items, which could be a good way to make a mold for the top of an airhead. Give yourself lots of clearance for heavy duty equipment, at the front end . You don't want it touching bottom. Less for the conservative birth Canal. You don't want to miss it when the boat is well heeled. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Luke" wrote: > > Hey, I read along on the digests and I think I saw that someone made an Air > Head style marine head. Was there a source for plans for that or was it off > the cuff based on the current product available through airheadtoilet? I am > looking to save some money and build one for a 24' fiberglass boat. > > Thanks. > > -- > -- Jeff > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17401|17394|2008-05-14 10:26:29|steve allen|Re: Air Head plans source|http://www.lowimpact.org/factsheet_compost_toilets.htm brentswain38 wrote: I built mine from those I'd seen. I tried the trap door, but found it much simper to use a stainless pot lid from the thrift store which you lift out before giving birth to a conservative. This requires a half inch high lip around the conservative birth Canal, but drastically simplifies the head. I'm hoping to try dried, well waxed clay for a mold for small fibreglass items, which could be a good way to make a mold for the top of an airhead. Give yourself lots of clearance for heavy duty equipment, at the front end . You don't want it touching bottom. Less for the conservative birth Canal. You don't want to miss it when the boat is well heeled. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Luke" wrote: > > Hey, I read along on the digests and I think I saw that someone made an Air > Head style marine head. Was there a source for plans for that or was it off > the cuff based on the current product available through airheadtoilet? I am > looking to save some money and build one for a 24' fiberglass boat. > > Thanks. > > -- > -- Jeff > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17402|17402|2008-05-14 21:24:33|James Pronk|Plasma Cutter|I had asked if anyone had used an inverter plasma cutter and if anyone had had much luck with them. I figured after not hearing much I would have to learn first hand. I bought a Cut 40D inverter plasma cutter. I payed $550.00 for it taxes included. A 10 pack of consumables is $25, a 20 pack is $40. Its weight is 30lb. I have been cutting 14 ga, 3/16", 1/4", and 1/2" mild steel, 1/4" stainless steel and 1/8 aluminum and I must say I am very impressed. This machine does not have all the features that the procut 55 had so you have to be careful. Your air needs to be on and up to pressure or you will burn out a tungsten. You have to be sure you have the torch put together properly or you could damage it and the torch seems very light duty. Other then this I am very hapy with this machine. I have used this plasma cutter alot in the last two weeks and I like it more then the Lincoln Procut 55 that I had. It cuts very clean and fast, the torch is small and light and more like using a pen then a torch and it is easy to move around. The consumables for the Lincoln cost about $100 for a 5 pack, I spent more on consumables last year them I payed for this Cut 40 plasma cutter. I have a ton of cutting to do so I will see, in the months to come, how well this plasma cutter holds up. Right now I am kind of happy to no longer have the Procut 55. James Pronk.| 17403|17402|2008-05-14 21:30:44|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Plasma Cutter|James, How dry is you air? The air plasma torches are really affected by moisture in the air. A vendor I use for CNC plasma cutting had no end of problems with his machine, until he put a moisture filter on the air line. His consumables costs went way down. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pronk" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 9:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Plasma Cutter I had asked if anyone had used an inverter plasma cutter and if anyone had had much luck with them. I figured after not hearing much I would have to learn first hand. I bought a Cut 40D inverter plasma cutter. I payed $550.00 for it taxes included. A 10 pack of consumables is $25, a 20 pack is $40. Its weight is 30lb. I have been cutting 14 ga, 3/16", 1/4", and 1/2" mild steel, 1/4" stainless steel and 1/8 aluminum and I must say I am very impressed. This machine does not have all the features that the procut 55 had so you have to be careful. Your air needs to be on and up to pressure or you will burn out a tungsten. You have to be sure you have the torch put together properly or you could damage it and the torch seems very light duty. Other then this I am very hapy with this machine. I have used this plasma cutter alot in the last two weeks and I like it more then the Lincoln Procut 55 that I had. It cuts very clean and fast, the torch is small and light and more like using a pen then a torch and it is easy to move around. The consumables for the Lincoln cost about $100 for a 5 pack, I spent more on consumables last year them I payed for this Cut 40 plasma cutter. I have a ton of cutting to do so I will see, in the months to come, how well this plasma cutter holds up. Right now I am kind of happy to no longer have the Procut 55. James Pronk. | 17404|17402|2008-05-14 22:16:05|James Pronk|Re: Plasma Cutter|Hi Gary My air is as dry as I can keep it without an air drier. I drain the compresser tank nightly and let out the water through out the day. I also have three water traps, one at the compressor and two inline at the plasma cutter. I have used my plasma cutter as much as 20 hours a week so I do use alot of consumables. My old plasma cutter worked fine but I am liking this one better. James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > James, > How dry is you air? The air plasma torches are really affected by moisture > in the air. A vendor I use for CNC plasma cutting had no end of problems > with his machine, until he put a moisture filter on the air line. His > consumables costs went way down. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pronk" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 9:24 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Plasma Cutter > > > I had asked if anyone had used an inverter plasma cutter and if > anyone had had much luck with them. I figured after not hearing much > I would have to learn first hand. > I bought a Cut 40D inverter plasma cutter. I payed $550.00 for it > taxes included. A 10 pack of consumables is $25, a 20 pack is $40. > Its weight is 30lb. I have been cutting 14 ga, 3/16", 1/4", and 1/2" > mild steel, 1/4" stainless steel and 1/8 aluminum and I must say I am > very impressed. > This machine does not have all the features that the procut 55 had so > you have to be careful. Your air needs to be on and up to pressure or > you will burn out a tungsten. You have to be sure you have the torch > put together properly or you could damage it and the torch seems very > light duty. Other then this I am very hapy with this machine. I have > used this plasma cutter alot in the last two weeks and I like it more > then the Lincoln Procut 55 that I had. It cuts very clean and fast, > the torch is small and light and more like using a pen then a torch > and it is easy to move around. The consumables for the Lincoln cost > about $100 for a 5 pack, I spent more on consumables last year them I > payed for this Cut 40 plasma cutter. > I have a ton of cutting to do so I will see, in the months to come, > how well this plasma cutter holds up. Right now I am kind of happy to > no longer have the Procut 55. > James Pronk. > | 17405|6188|2008-05-15 03:17:39|pepad67|Lattice mast|Hi, I foud site about "Lattice mast" http://www.yacht-mast.de/ ...I don't know if this word "Lattice" is correct in english I'm not a native english speaker so please correct me if I'm wrong. ...pitty is the the site is only in german :( so I understand only something ...have you ever seen this kind of mast? ...some experience with it ? ...I know it looks strange but I think it could be practical because of : - it's quite cheep to build - it's easy to repair - it's easy to climb on it thanks for your comment. dodo| 17406|6188|2008-05-15 03:26:48|polaris041|Re: Lattice mast|If you are using 'internet explorer', open the page, right click, click on 'page info' click on ' translate into english'. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pepad67" wrote: > > Hi, > I foud site about "Lattice mast" > > http://www.yacht-mast.de/ > > ...I don't know if this word "Lattice" is correct in english I'm not a > native english speaker so please correct me if I'm wrong. > > ...pitty is the the site is only in german :( so I understand only > something > > > ...have you ever seen this kind of mast? ...some experience with it ? > > > ...I know it looks strange but I think it could be practical because of : > > - it's quite cheep to build > - it's easy to repair > - it's easy to climb on it > > thanks for your comment. > > dodo > | 17407|6188|2008-05-15 10:34:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Lattice mast|On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 07:17:38AM -0000, pepad67 wrote: > Hi, > I foud site about "Lattice mast" > > http://www.yacht-mast.de/ > > ...I don't know if this word "Lattice" is correct in english I'm not a > native english speaker so please correct me if I'm wrong. > > ...pitty is the the site is only in german :( so I understand only > something babelfish.altavista.com will translate the site for you. Just go there and enter the URL. > ...have you ever seen this kind of mast? ...some experience with it ? > > > ...I know it looks strange but I think it could be practical because of : > > - it's quite cheep to build Really? It would be interesting to see some actual numbers. I suspect that a single aluminium extrusion - i.e., the kind of thing that's made by the millions for lamp posts - is going to be much, much cheaper than a specialized, one-off jury rig [1]. > - it's easy to repair Hmmm... perhaps a little easier than a broken extrusion, but I'd never call it "easy". It's also more prone to twisting loads and to lots of distortion when it does break. I don't think that there's any gain here. > - it's easy to climb on it This is true - but so is a regular mast with good steps. [1] For those who know the origin of this expression, I just couldn't resist the pun. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17408|6188|2008-05-15 12:26:05|edward_stoneuk|Re: Lattice mast|Hi Dodo, I have seen lattice uprights and beams used in farm sheds made from reinforcing bar with the diagonals made from bent zig zags welded to the longitudinals . For a mast one would have to be careful welding the stainless pipe diagonals to the stainless pipe longitudinals to avoid distortion. The yacht mast webpage shows a massive jig, presumably to avoid this distortion. Regards, Ted| 17409|6188|2008-05-15 13:49:36|mauro gonzaga|Re: Lattice mast|Due to its non aerodinamic shape I presume more wintage. There is no advantage in terms of weight: the cylindrical section has the best moment of inertia so the highest resistance with the same weight. Mauro. edward_stoneuk wrote: Hi Dodo, I have seen lattice uprights and beams used in farm sheds made from reinforcing bar with the diagonals made from bent zig zags welded to the longitudinals . For a mast one would have to be careful welding the stainless pipe diagonals to the stainless pipe longitudinals to avoid distortion. The yacht mast webpage shows a massive jig, presumably to avoid this distortion. Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17410|17410|2008-05-16 09:32:32|hh2299|lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Hi Everyone, I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I intend to live on it. My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac generator and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, diesel electric. Here are my questions: 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, uses very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long after I am dead and buried. Videos of the Lister running: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4&feature=related Specs on the motor http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp AC generator http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 Pump for water maker http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html Charge control for the alternator http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html Regards, Brad| 17411|6188|2008-05-16 10:01:35|pepad67|Re: Lattice mast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 07:17:38AM -0000, pepad67 wrote: > > Hi, > > I foud site about "Lattice mast" > > > > http://www.yacht-mast.de/ > > > > ...I don't know if this word "Lattice" is correct in english I'm not a > > native english speaker so please correct me if I'm wrong. > > > > ...pitty is the the site is only in german :( so I understand only > > something > > babelfish.altavista.com will translate the site for you. Just go there > and enter the URL. > > > ...have you ever seen this kind of mast? ...some experience with it ? > > > > > > ...I know it looks strange but I think it could be practical because of : > > > > - it's quite cheep to build > > Really? It would be interesting to see some actual numbers. I suspect > that a single aluminium extrusion - i.e., the kind of thing that's made > by the millions for lamp posts - is going to be much, much cheaper than > a specialized, one-off jury rig [1]. ...I don't know how much does aluminium extrusion mast cost in US or Canada but here in europe ne 13 metr aluminium mast wil cost about 6000 - 8000 US$. ...and from my calculation lattice mast will cost you 2000 - 2500 US$. ...so 3 times less. > > > - it's easy to repair > > Hmmm... perhaps a little easier than a broken extrusion, but I'd never > call it "easy". It's also more prone to twisting loads and to lots of > distortion when it does break. I don't think that there's any gain here. > May be it's easy to repair extrusion in US or Canada, but in other parts of the worl it could be realy problem. ...I read some story about yacht with broken mast in indonesia (Bali) and they had to motor to Thailand to find somebody for repairing aluminium mast. ...I think SS steel mast you could repair nearly everywhere. dodo| 17412|6188|2008-05-16 14:09:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Lattice mast|On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 02:01:34PM -0000, pepad67 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 07:17:38AM -0000, pepad67 wrote: > > > > > > ...I know it looks strange but I think it could be practical > because of : > > > > > > - it's quite cheep to build > > > > Really? It would be interesting to see some actual numbers. I suspect > > that a single aluminium extrusion - i.e., the kind of thing that's made > > by the millions for lamp posts - is going to be much, much cheaper than > > a specialized, one-off jury rig [1]. > > ...I don't know how much does aluminium extrusion mast cost in US or > Canada but here in europe ne 13 metr aluminium mast wil cost about > 6000 - 8000 US$. ...and from my calculation lattice mast will cost > you 2000 - 2500 US$. ...so 3 times less. That's quite the calculation. I wouldn't mind seeing the basis on which you've come up with those numbers. Have you considered what it would take to build a jig for it? Have you considered the cost of redoing the whole thing from the beginning if you make a mistake? Have you considered the hundreds of hours that it would take you to learn to put this thing together perfectly? Buying an extruded pole immediately brings all those costs to zero. Just for comparison - a quick Web search plus a couple of phone calls gave me a range of 40 ft. (~13 meter) steel poles for well under $2000. I can't guarantee that they're suitable, but these were utility pole manufacturers I was calling, so I think they'd be OK. A friend of mine used an aluminum utility pole for his junk rig in St. Thomas, and it worked fine. As I recall, he told me that it cost him around $3300. > > > - it's easy to repair > > > > Hmmm... perhaps a little easier than a broken extrusion, but I'd never > > call it "easy". It's also more prone to twisting loads and to lots of > > distortion when it does break. I don't think that there's any gain here. > > May be it's easy to repair extrusion in US or Canada, but in other > parts of the worl it could be realy problem. ...I read some story > about yacht with broken mast in indonesia (Bali) and they had to motor > to Thailand to find somebody for repairing aluminium mast. ...I think > SS steel mast you could repair nearly everywhere. Since you're saying that steel is OK for your use, comparing it to repairing an aluminum mast wouldn't be fair - and sleeving a steel tube is a fairly simple job. On the other hand, with your rig, I'd always be worried about being able to find a machine shop that could manufacture the right-sized pieces if anything happened - as well as the cost of doing so. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17413|6188|2008-05-16 14:52:54|James|Re: Lattice mast|I was thinking of a lattice mast , tho put off by the ugliness and lack of hidey hole space for wires etc , then on reading Dudley Dix on steel tube masts , am now pretty sold on those , weighing 8.6 kg per metre for my approx.required diameter , c.f. 8.7 for solid spruce and 8.3 for ali. james On 5/16/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 02:01:34PM -0000, pepad67 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 07:17:38AM -0000, pepad67 wrote: > > > > > > > > ...I know it looks strange but I think it could be practical > > because of : > > > > > > > > - it's quite cheep to build > > > > > > Really? It would be interesting to see some actual numbers. I suspect > > > that a single aluminium extrusion - i.e., the kind of thing that's made > > > by the millions for lamp posts - is going to be much, much cheaper than > > > a specialized, one-off jury rig [1]. > > > > ...I don't know how much does aluminium extrusion mast cost in US or > > Canada but here in europe ne 13 metr aluminium mast wil cost about > > 6000 - 8000 US$. ...and from my calculation lattice mast will cost > > you 2000 - 2500 US$. ...so 3 times less. > > That's quite the calculation. I wouldn't mind seeing the basis on which > you've come up with those numbers. Have you considered what it would > take to build a jig for it? Have you considered the cost of redoing the > whole thing from the beginning if you make a mistake? Have you > considered the hundreds of hours that it would take you to learn to put > this thing together perfectly? Buying an extruded pole immediately > brings all those costs to zero. > > Just for comparison - a quick Web search plus a couple of phone calls > gave me a range of 40 ft. (~13 meter) steel poles for well under $2000. > I can't guarantee that they're suitable, but these were utility pole > manufacturers I was calling, so I think they'd be OK. A friend of mine > used an aluminum utility pole for his junk rig in St. Thomas, and it > worked fine. As I recall, he told me that it cost him around $3300. > > > > > - it's easy to repair > > > > > > Hmmm... perhaps a little easier than a broken extrusion, but I'd never > > > call it "easy". It's also more prone to twisting loads and to lots of > > > distortion when it does break. I don't think that there's any gain > here. > > > > May be it's easy to repair extrusion in US or Canada, but in other > > parts of the worl it could be realy problem. ...I read some story > > about yacht with broken mast in indonesia (Bali) and they had to motor > > to Thailand to find somebody for repairing aluminium mast. ...I think > > SS steel mast you could repair nearly everywhere. > > Since you're saying that steel is OK for your use, comparing it to > repairing an aluminum mast wouldn't be fair - and sleeving a steel tube > is a fairly simple job. On the other hand, with your rig, I'd always be > worried about being able to find a machine shop that could manufacture > the right-sized pieces if anything happened - as well as the cost of > doing so. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET* > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17414|17379|2008-05-16 16:54:11|morgan33t_ior|Re: Interior Plywood|Even though a Jonny come lately to this thread, get the MDO. You can't go wrong at those prices. Closest thing to waterproof plywood you can get. Comes in a little heavier than ply, not enough to worry. Worried about spores, use the 13% pool bleach straight. I use a 2gal yard pump sprayer when I spray the roof and house. Let it dry, it isn't going to hurt the painted MDO. Spray it a couple of times if it will get rid of your worries. Sand that paint with 100grit then 150 before painting. You can even use latex primer and paint with the MDO. No paint penetration into the ply with the resins used. Don't hit the MDO too hard if you get down to the ply when sanding. There is only a marginal penetration of the exterior finish on MDO. At those prices you just can not go wrong. I'm jealous. I'd buy a bunch, even if I didn't need it. The money isn't the worry, it is the high price when the boss starts yelling what are you bringing home now, you can't even get a car in the garage, why do you want more junk. You know, that eternal damnation price. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN| 17415|17410|2008-05-16 17:58:31|Paul Wilson|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|You will need a bigger boat. All of that will be way too big and heavy for the 36 footer. It will probably be too expensive and complex as well when you add up all the bits and pieces. The trend is to smaller, higher rpm diesels like the Yanmars. I don't necessarily agree with it (I prefer industrial engines like the Isuzu or Kubota) but people seem to like them. Taken care of, almost all diesels are reliable and should last for years and years. I am not necessarily commenting on the Lister, but I wouldn't buy a diesel unless the parts were available world-wide and had a chance of still being available 20 years from now. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hh2299 Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 1:33 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? Hi Everyone, I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I intend to live on it. My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac generator and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, diesel electric. Here are my questions: 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, uses very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long after I am dead and buried. Videos of the Lister running: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4 &feature=related Specs on the motor http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp AC generator http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 Pump for water maker http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html Charge control for the alternator http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html Regards, Brad No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1448 - Release Date: 5/16/2008 7:42 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17416|6188|2008-05-16 21:15:56|sae140|Re: Lattice mast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > I was thinking of a lattice mast , tho put off by the ugliness and lack of > hidey hole space for wires etc , then on reading Dudley Dix on steel tube > masts , am now pretty sold on those , weighing 8.6 kg per metre for my > approx.required diameter , c.f. 8.7 for solid spruce and 8.3 for ali. > james > For a dirt-cheap mast, you might want to look at wooden telegraph or electric poles - in Britain old ones can be bought for a tenner, new ones for a couple of hundred quid. They make good unstayed junk masts either 'as is' or hollowed out, but if you're planning on using stays you could opt for a smaller diameter and remove a lot more inner wood to get the weight down. A lot more work than with a steel tube or ally extrusion, but very little money involved with a wooden pole. Colin| 17417|6188|2008-05-16 23:31:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Lattice mast|On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 01:15:55AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > I was thinking of a lattice mast , tho put off by the ugliness and > lack of > > hidey hole space for wires etc , then on reading Dudley Dix on steel > tube > > masts , am now pretty sold on those , weighing 8.6 kg per metre for my > > approx.required diameter , c.f. 8.7 for solid spruce and 8.3 for ali. > > james > > > > For a dirt-cheap mast, you might want to look at wooden telegraph or > electric poles - in Britain old ones can be bought for a tenner, new > ones for a couple of hundred quid. They make good unstayed junk masts > either 'as is' or hollowed out, but if you're planning on using stays > you could opt for a smaller diameter and remove a lot more inner wood > to get the weight down. > A lot more work than with a steel tube or ally extrusion, but very > little money involved with a wooden pole. Really good call there. I've known a few people who bought an old wooden telephone pole (after carefully picking out the best one in the lot), shaved it down a bit, and used it; all of them reported being very, very happy with it. No rot, ever... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17419|17410|2008-05-17 08:36:51|hh2299|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Thanks Paul for the reply. Parts for these things is not a problem they have been around since 1929 and if you can't get a part local you can make it. They are used in third world farming etc no precision engineering it is over engineered brute force approach. As for price it will cost under a grand where the yanmar equivalent will cost 2.5. I can also carry a compete rebuild kit for a couple hundred. Before I let go of this idea entirely how about the Petter? W510mm x L520mm x H750mm Gross weight 210kg http://www.poweranand.com/high_speed_lister_type.htm As I am looking at diesel electric it can be mounted anywhere. While I like the idea of the yamnar it will cost me an extra $2k and is not something I can repair with a few hand tools and bailing wire :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > You will need a bigger boat. All of that will be way too big and heavy for > the 36 footer. It will probably be too expensive and complex as well when > you add up all the bits and pieces. The trend is to smaller, higher rpm > diesels like the Yanmars. I don't necessarily agree with it (I prefer > industrial engines like the Isuzu or Kubota) but people seem to like them. > Taken care of, almost all diesels are reliable and should last for years and > years. I am not necessarily commenting on the Lister, but I wouldn't buy a > diesel unless the parts were available world-wide and had a chance of still > being available 20 years from now. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of hh2299 > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 1:33 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? > > > > Hi Everyone, > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > intend to live on it. > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac generator > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, diesel > electric. > > Here are my questions: > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, uses > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > after I am dead and buried. > > Videos of the Lister running: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4 > > &feature=related > > Specs on the motor > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > AC generator > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > Pump for water maker > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > Charge control for the alternator > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > Regards, > > Brad > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1448 - Release Date: 5/16/2008 > 7:42 PM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17420|17410|2008-05-17 21:22:12|vic_lub|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Hello I own a listeriod and a petter... The lister wont work well...its a stationary engine.. I would hate to think about the gyroscopic forces of the huge flywheels in a rolling sea....wear out the main bearings fast.. And i would hate to have one of the flywheels come loose and have 150 lbs of metal chasing you around the inside of the boat.. Lister made a small marine diesel with a transmission see if you can find one of them.. The petter would be a better choice and i think they even make a marine transmission for one.. The idea of using a diesel/electric propulsion is not very efficient for small scale use... It is more complex to set up and maintain and you have less power at the propellor then a straight shaft/transmission... Cheers Tug --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hh2299" wrote: > > Thanks Paul for the reply. > > Parts for these things is not a problem they have been around since > 1929 and if you can't get a part local you can make it. They are used > in third world farming etc no precision engineering it is over > engineered brute force approach. As for price it will cost under a > grand where the yanmar equivalent will cost 2.5. I can also carry a > compete rebuild kit for a couple hundred. > > Before I let go of this idea entirely how about the Petter? > W510mm x L520mm x H750mm Gross weight 210kg > http://www.poweranand.com/high_speed_lister_type.htm > > As I am looking at diesel electric it can be mounted anywhere. > > While I like the idea of the yamnar it will cost me an extra $2k and > is not something I can repair with a few hand tools and bailing wire :) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > You will need a bigger boat. All of that will be way too big and > heavy for > > the 36 footer. It will probably be too expensive and complex as > well when > > you add up all the bits and pieces. The trend is to smaller, higher rpm > > diesels like the Yanmars. I don't necessarily agree with it (I prefer > > industrial engines like the Isuzu or Kubota) but people seem to like > them. > > Taken care of, almost all diesels are reliable and should last for > years and > > years. I am not necessarily commenting on the Lister, but I > wouldn't buy a > > diesel unless the parts were available world-wide and had a chance > of still > > being available 20 years from now. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of hh2299 > > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 1:33 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > > intend to live on it. > > > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac generator > > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, diesel > > electric. > > > > Here are my questions: > > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, uses > > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > > after I am dead and buried. > > > > Videos of the Lister running: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4 > > > > &feature=related > > > > Specs on the motor > > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > > > AC generator > > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > > > Pump for water maker > > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > > > Charge control for the alternator > > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > > > Regards, > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1448 - Release Date: > 5/16/2008 > > 7:42 PM > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17421|17410|2008-05-17 21:22:13|vic_lub|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Hello I own a listeriod and a petter... The lister wont work well...its a stationary engine.. I would hate to think about the gyroscopic forces of the huge flywheels in a rolling sea....wear out the main bearings fast.. And i would hate to have one of the flywheels come loose and have 150 lbs of metal chasing you around the inside of the boat.. Lister made a small marine diesel with a transmission see if you can find one of them.. The petter would be a better choice and i think they even make a marine transmission for one.. The idea of using a diesel/electric propulsion is not very efficient for small scale use... It is more complex to set up and maintain and you have less power at the propellor then a straight shaft/transmission... Cheers Tug --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hh2299" wrote: > > Thanks Paul for the reply. > > Parts for these things is not a problem they have been around since > 1929 and if you can't get a part local you can make it. They are used > in third world farming etc no precision engineering it is over > engineered brute force approach. As for price it will cost under a > grand where the yanmar equivalent will cost 2.5. I can also carry a > compete rebuild kit for a couple hundred. > > Before I let go of this idea entirely how about the Petter? > W510mm x L520mm x H750mm Gross weight 210kg > http://www.poweranand.com/high_speed_lister_type.htm > > As I am looking at diesel electric it can be mounted anywhere. > > While I like the idea of the yamnar it will cost me an extra $2k and > is not something I can repair with a few hand tools and bailing wire :) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > You will need a bigger boat. All of that will be way too big and > heavy for > > the 36 footer. It will probably be too expensive and complex as > well when > > you add up all the bits and pieces. The trend is to smaller, higher rpm > > diesels like the Yanmars. I don't necessarily agree with it (I prefer > > industrial engines like the Isuzu or Kubota) but people seem to like > them. > > Taken care of, almost all diesels are reliable and should last for > years and > > years. I am not necessarily commenting on the Lister, but I > wouldn't buy a > > diesel unless the parts were available world-wide and had a chance > of still > > being available 20 years from now. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of hh2299 > > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 1:33 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > > intend to live on it. > > > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac generator > > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, diesel > > electric. > > > > Here are my questions: > > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, uses > > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > > after I am dead and buried. > > > > Videos of the Lister running: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4 > > > > &feature=related > > > > Specs on the motor > > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > > > AC generator > > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > > > Pump for water maker > > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > > > Charge control for the alternator > > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > > > Regards, > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1448 - Release Date: > 5/16/2008 > > 7:42 PM > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17422|6188|2008-05-17 22:17:01|Paul Wilson|Re: Lattice mast|Howdy, I just posted a magazine article I had called "Build Your Own Mast" in the files section of the group. It describes how to make masts using standard aluminum pipe or tube. An oldie but goodie. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lattice mast On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 01:15:55AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , James wrote: > > > > I was thinking of a lattice mast , tho put off by the ugliness and > lack of > > hidey hole space for wires etc , then on reading Dudley Dix on steel > tube > > masts , am now pretty sold on those , weighing 8.6 kg per metre for my > > approx.required diameter , c.f. 8.7 for solid spruce and 8.3 for ali. > > james > > > > For a dirt-cheap mast, you might want to look at wooden telegraph or > electric poles - in Britain old ones can be bought for a tenner, new > ones for a couple of hundred quid. They make good unstayed junk masts > either 'as is' or hollowed out, but if you're planning on using stays > you could opt for a smaller diameter and remove a lot more inner wood > to get the weight down. > A lot more work than with a steel tube or ally extrusion, but very > little money involved with a wooden pole. Really good call there. I've known a few people who bought an old wooden telephone pole (after carefully picking out the best one in the lot), shaved it down a bit, and used it; all of them reported being very, very happy with it. No rot, ever... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1452 - Release Date: 5/17/2008 6:26 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17423|17410|2008-05-17 22:47:30|Paul Wilson|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Hi Brad, I hate to be negative but I still think it is too big and heavy. That is a massive engine for something generating only 12 hp and I don't think that weight includes a gearbox. For a given amount of money, I think you would be better off looking for a used or rebuilt engine. For simplicity, as someone already said, it's hard to beat an engine and gearbox to a prop. As long as you feed your diesel clean fuel, change the oil, and don't let it rust away, there should be little maintenance needed over its lifetime. I think most engines now are amazingly reliable, it's usually the things added on to it that break down. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hh2299 Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 12:37 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? Thanks Paul for the reply. Parts for these things is not a problem they have been around since 1929 and if you can't get a part local you can make it. They are used in third world farming etc no precision engineering it is over engineered brute force approach. As for price it will cost under a grand where the yanmar equivalent will cost 2.5. I can also carry a compete rebuild kit for a couple hundred. Before I let go of this idea entirely how about the Petter? W510mm x L520mm x H750mm Gross weight 210kg http://www.poweranand.com/high_speed_lister_type.htm As I am looking at diesel electric it can be mounted anywhere. While I like the idea of the yamnar it will cost me an extra $2k and is not something I can repair with a few hand tools and bailing wire :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > You will need a bigger boat. All of that will be way too big and heavy for > the 36 footer. It will probably be too expensive and complex as well when > you add up all the bits and pieces. The trend is to smaller, higher rpm > diesels like the Yanmars. I don't necessarily agree with it (I prefer > industrial engines like the Isuzu or Kubota) but people seem to like them. > Taken care of, almost all diesels are reliable and should last for years and > years. I am not necessarily commenting on the Lister, but I wouldn't buy a > diesel unless the parts were available world-wide and had a chance of still > being available 20 years from now. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of hh2299 > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 1:33 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? > > > > Hi Everyone, > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > intend to live on it. > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac generator > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, diesel > electric. > > Here are my questions: > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, uses > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > after I am dead and buried. > > Videos of the Lister running: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4 > &feature=related> > &feature=related > > Specs on the motor > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > AC generator > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > Pump for water maker > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > Charge control for the alternator > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > Regards, > > Brad > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1448 - Release Date: 5/16/2008 > 7:42 PM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1452 - Release Date: 5/17/2008 6:26 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17424|17424|2008-05-18 18:41:34|John Langelo|Marine exaust manafold|Has any body tried with sucess making a stainless water jacketed exaust manifold. My 25 hp. Izuzu diesel's manifold is falling apart, and I have enough scrap stainless to build a new one. John| 17425|6188|2008-05-19 13:23:17|mickeyolaf|Re: Lattice mast|Why not build a hollow wooden mast with solid fillers for compression spots. There are lots of different designs. The two halves method allows u to epoxy coat the interior to prevent rot, place drain tubes for any water that finds it way inside etc, before the final glue up. An aluminum mast in the US, 47' ready to stand and insert running rigging is $5780.00. That for a cutter rig, four sheave head, with all of the tangs, winch pads, spreaders, spinnaker track, mast tray, toggles, 3 coats of white polyurethane, six cleats, vang pad, boom attachment and more. I just bought one in LA. I flew down to inspect it on Monday. Really nice work. It ships to me on this Saturday. I will post pictures of it next week with my "Andes" pictures after I get a chance to unwrap it. That puts my mast and boom factory built in aluminum at $6500 US. A lot more than u would spend than if u built your own in steel. I just don't have the time to build my own. Brent, I will have a seamstress make a cloth doll that looks like me. Every time I know I spent too much on the boat I will stick a pin in it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > I was thinking of a lattice mast , tho put off by the ugliness and lack of > hidey hole space for wires etc , then on reading Dudley Dix on steel tube > masts , am now pretty sold on those , weighing 8.6 kg per metre for my > approx.required diameter , c.f. 8.7 for solid spruce and 8.3 for ali. > james > > > On 5/16/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 02:01:34PM -0000, pepad67 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 07:17:38AM -0000, pepad67 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ...I know it looks strange but I think it could be practical > > > because of : > > > > > > > > > > - it's quite cheep to build > > > > > > > > Really? It would be interesting to see some actual numbers. I suspect > > > > that a single aluminium extrusion - i.e., the kind of thing that's made > > > > by the millions for lamp posts - is going to be much, much cheaper than > > > > a specialized, one-off jury rig [1]. > > > > > > ...I don't know how much does aluminium extrusion mast cost in US or > > > Canada but here in europe ne 13 metr aluminium mast wil cost about > > > 6000 - 8000 US$. ...and from my calculation lattice mast will cost > > > you 2000 - 2500 US$. ...so 3 times less. > > > > That's quite the calculation. I wouldn't mind seeing the basis on which > > you've come up with those numbers. Have you considered what it would > > take to build a jig for it? Have you considered the cost of redoing the > > whole thing from the beginning if you make a mistake? Have you > > considered the hundreds of hours that it would take you to learn to put > > this thing together perfectly? Buying an extruded pole immediately > > brings all those costs to zero. > > > > Just for comparison - a quick Web search plus a couple of phone calls > > gave me a range of 40 ft. (~13 meter) steel poles for well under $2000. > > I can't guarantee that they're suitable, but these were utility pole > > manufacturers I was calling, so I think they'd be OK. A friend of mine > > used an aluminum utility pole for his junk rig in St. Thomas, and it > > worked fine. As I recall, he told me that it cost him around $3300. > > > > > > > - it's easy to repair > > > > > > > > Hmmm... perhaps a little easier than a broken extrusion, but I'd never > > > > call it "easy". It's also more prone to twisting loads and to lots of > > > > distortion when it does break. I don't think that there's any gain > > here. > > > > > > May be it's easy to repair extrusion in US or Canada, but in other > > > parts of the worl it could be realy problem. ...I read some story > > > about yacht with broken mast in indonesia (Bali) and they had to motor > > > to Thailand to find somebody for repairing aluminium mast. ...I think > > > SS steel mast you could repair nearly everywhere. > > > > Since you're saying that steel is OK for your use, comparing it to > > repairing an aluminum mast wouldn't be fair - and sleeving a steel tube > > is a fairly simple job. On the other hand, with your rig, I'd always be > > worried about being able to find a machine shop that could manufacture > > the right-sized pieces if anything happened - as well as the cost of > > doing so. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET* > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17426|6188|2008-05-19 14:44:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Lattice mast|On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 05:23:13PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > Why not build a hollow wooden mast with solid fillers for compression > spots. There are lots of different designs. The two halves method > allows u to epoxy coat the interior to prevent rot, place drain tubes > for any water that finds it way inside etc, before the final glue up. > > An aluminum mast in the US, 47' ready to stand and insert running > rigging is $5780.00. That for a cutter rig, four sheave head, with all > of the tangs, winch pads, spreaders, spinnaker track, mast tray, > toggles, 3 coats of white polyurethane, six cleats, vang pad, boom > attachment and more. That's right in line with what I was hearing - $3300 for a bare 40' stick very easily translates to the above number with all the features you've listed. In fact, it sounds like you got a really great deal (although this is definitely _not_ the Brent way. :) If I ever have to put up another stick, I'm going to give either the steel pipe or the wooden telephone pole approach a good hard think - although I'll admit I'm already somewhat inclined toward the latter (the modulus of flexibility of wood and the weight-to-strength ratio is pretty impressive stuff.) Speaking of aluminum - I think I've mentioned it here before, but this works _really_ well: if you have aluminum that's got to stay bare, and it's starting to oxidize, hit it really hard with a wire brush (try to get all the white powder out) and soak it - and I mean really dripping wet - with WD-40. Resoak it for three days in a row, and it'll stay oxidation-free damn near forever. I just went out to look at the winch plates on my main mast; it's been almost 9 years since I treated them that way, and they're still literally perfect. I don't know of anything you can do to new aluminum that would protect it this well. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17427|6188|2008-05-19 17:16:38|mickeyolaf|Re: Lattice mast|Another mast is coming up to BC with mine on the same truck. It's 42', has a 6 sheave head, cutter rigged and fitted out same as mine. It's for a Fraser 36 a friend of mine is building in Parksville. His cost for the mast and factory boom was US $6113. We are splitting the cost of CDN $900 to ship the two of them from LA to Vancouver, BC. The rip-off-ridiculous quote I was given in BC for a 47' mast was $12,800 and $3100 for the boom. Our cost in LA including shipping is way less than half that price for a better product. On a lighter note I was just in Kingston, Ontario. The two marinas I visited were both a third full. The one beside the Kingston Federal Pen had direct access to the Thousand Islands and the lake and was deserted. I don't know what gives here in BC where u wait for years for a 40' slip and Ontario marinas are waiting for boats. Speaking of rip offs, some Vancouver marinas are now charging by the slip length instead of your boat length. So a 32' boat in a 40' slip pays for 40'. They just stuck this new method of accounting to all of the boaters at Captain's Cove on the Fraser River. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 05:23:13PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > > Why not build a hollow wooden mast with solid fillers for compression > > spots. There are lots of different designs. The two halves method > > allows u to epoxy coat the interior to prevent rot, place drain tubes > > for any water that finds it way inside etc, before the final glue up. > > > > An aluminum mast in the US, 47' ready to stand and insert running > > rigging is $5780.00. That for a cutter rig, four sheave head, with all > > of the tangs, winch pads, spreaders, spinnaker track, mast tray, > > toggles, 3 coats of white polyurethane, six cleats, vang pad, boom > > attachment and more. > > That's right in line with what I was hearing - $3300 for a bare 40' > stick very easily translates to the above number with all the features > you've listed. In fact, it sounds like you got a really great deal > (although this is definitely _not_ the Brent way. :) > > If I ever have to put up another stick, I'm going to give either the > steel pipe or the wooden telephone pole approach a good hard think - > although I'll admit I'm already somewhat inclined toward the latter (the > modulus of flexibility of wood and the weight-to-strength ratio is > pretty impressive stuff.) > > Speaking of aluminum - I think I've mentioned it here before, but this > works _really_ well: if you have aluminum that's got to stay bare, and > it's starting to oxidize, hit it really hard with a wire brush (try to > get all the white powder out) and soak it - and I mean really dripping > wet - with WD-40. Resoak it for three days in a row, and it'll stay > oxidation-free damn near forever. I just went out to look at the winch > plates on my main mast; it's been almost 9 years since I treated them > that way, and they're still literally perfect. I don't know of anything > you can do to new aluminum that would protect it this well. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17428|6188|2008-05-19 19:07:25|brentswain38|Re: Lattice mast|A steel mast fully detailed costs around $1,000. I was just told that aluminium is under $3 a pound, so buying an aluminium 6 inch sch 40 pipe may be the way to go if you want aluminium. They can be easily squashed to an oval shape by a brake press. It's under 5 minutes of shop time. Avoiding marinas indefinitly is easy in BC. You'll spend less going to the South Pacific for the winter, which sounds like better value for your money. So what are boats for? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Another mast is coming up to BC with mine on the same truck. It's 42', > has a 6 sheave head, cutter rigged and fitted out same as mine. It's > for a Fraser 36 a friend of mine is building in Parksville. His cost > for the mast and factory boom was US $6113. > We are splitting the cost of CDN $900 to ship the two of them from LA > to Vancouver, BC. > The rip-off-ridiculous quote I was given in BC for a 47' mast was > $12,800 and $3100 for the boom. Our cost in LA including shipping is > way less than half that price for a better product. > > On a lighter note I was just in Kingston, Ontario. The two marinas I > visited were both a third full. The one beside the Kingston Federal > Pen had direct access to the Thousand Islands and the lake and was > deserted. I don't know what gives here in BC where u wait for years > for a 40' slip and Ontario marinas are waiting for boats. > > Speaking of rip offs, some Vancouver marinas are now charging by the > slip length instead of your boat length. So a 32' boat in a 40' slip > pays for 40'. They just stuck this new method of accounting to all of > the boaters at Captain's Cove on the Fraser River. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 05:23:13PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > > > Why not build a hollow wooden mast with solid fillers for compression > > > spots. There are lots of different designs. The two halves method > > > allows u to epoxy coat the interior to prevent rot, place drain tubes > > > for any water that finds it way inside etc, before the final glue up. > > > > > > An aluminum mast in the US, 47' ready to stand and insert running > > > rigging is $5780.00. That for a cutter rig, four sheave head, with all > > > of the tangs, winch pads, spreaders, spinnaker track, mast tray, > > > toggles, 3 coats of white polyurethane, six cleats, vang pad, boom > > > attachment and more. > > > > That's right in line with what I was hearing - $3300 for a bare 40' > > stick very easily translates to the above number with all the features > > you've listed. In fact, it sounds like you got a really great deal > > (although this is definitely _not_ the Brent way. :) > > > > If I ever have to put up another stick, I'm going to give either the > > steel pipe or the wooden telephone pole approach a good hard think - > > although I'll admit I'm already somewhat inclined toward the latter (the > > modulus of flexibility of wood and the weight-to-strength ratio is > > pretty impressive stuff.) > > > > Speaking of aluminum - I think I've mentioned it here before, but this > > works _really_ well: if you have aluminum that's got to stay bare, and > > it's starting to oxidize, hit it really hard with a wire brush (try to > > get all the white powder out) and soak it - and I mean really dripping > > wet - with WD-40. Resoak it for three days in a row, and it'll stay > > oxidation-free damn near forever. I just went out to look at the winch > > plates on my main mast; it's been almost 9 years since I treated them > > that way, and they're still literally perfect. I don't know of anything > > you can do to new aluminum that would protect it this well. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 17429|6188|2008-05-19 19:09:55|brentswain38|Re: Lattice mast|The sawmill charged $75 for my mast, a 6 by 4 inch solid air dried sitka spruce with four knots the size of your little fingernail. It was green and air dried standing, no problems. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Why not build a hollow wooden mast with solid fillers for compression > spots. There are lots of different designs. The two halves method > allows u to epoxy coat the interior to prevent rot, place drain tubes > for any water that finds it way inside etc, before the final glue up. > > An aluminum mast in the US, 47' ready to stand and insert running > rigging is $5780.00. That for a cutter rig, four sheave head, with all > of the tangs, winch pads, spreaders, spinnaker track, mast tray, > toggles, 3 coats of white polyurethane, six cleats, vang pad, boom > attachment and more. I just bought one in LA. I flew down to inspect > it on Monday. Really nice work. It ships to me on this Saturday. I > will post pictures of it next week with my "Andes" pictures after I > get a chance to unwrap it. That puts my mast and boom factory built in > aluminum at $6500 US. A lot more than u would spend than if u built > your own in steel. I just don't have the time to build my own. > > Brent, I will have a seamstress make a cloth doll that looks like me. > Every time I know I spent too much on the boat I will stick a pin in it. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > I was thinking of a lattice mast , tho put off by the ugliness and > lack of > > hidey hole space for wires etc , then on reading Dudley Dix on steel > tube > > masts , am now pretty sold on those , weighing 8.6 kg per metre for my > > approx.required diameter , c.f. 8.7 for solid spruce and 8.3 for ali. > > james > > > > > > On 5/16/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 02:01:34PM -0000, pepad67 wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , > > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 07:17:38AM -0000, pepad67 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > ...I know it looks strange but I think it could be practical > > > > because of : > > > > > > > > > > > > - it's quite cheep to build > > > > > > > > > > Really? It would be interesting to see some actual numbers. I > suspect > > > > > that a single aluminium extrusion - i.e., the kind of thing > that's made > > > > > by the millions for lamp posts - is going to be much, much > cheaper than > > > > > a specialized, one-off jury rig [1]. > > > > > > > > ...I don't know how much does aluminium extrusion mast cost in US or > > > > Canada but here in europe ne 13 metr aluminium mast wil cost about > > > > 6000 - 8000 US$. ...and from my calculation lattice mast will cost > > > > you 2000 - 2500 US$. ...so 3 times less. > > > > > > That's quite the calculation. I wouldn't mind seeing the basis on > which > > > you've come up with those numbers. Have you considered what it would > > > take to build a jig for it? Have you considered the cost of > redoing the > > > whole thing from the beginning if you make a mistake? Have you > > > considered the hundreds of hours that it would take you to learn > to put > > > this thing together perfectly? Buying an extruded pole immediately > > > brings all those costs to zero. > > > > > > Just for comparison - a quick Web search plus a couple of phone calls > > > gave me a range of 40 ft. (~13 meter) steel poles for well under > $2000. > > > I can't guarantee that they're suitable, but these were utility pole > > > manufacturers I was calling, so I think they'd be OK. A friend of mine > > > used an aluminum utility pole for his junk rig in St. Thomas, and it > > > worked fine. As I recall, he told me that it cost him around $3300. > > > > > > > > > - it's easy to repair > > > > > > > > > > Hmmm... perhaps a little easier than a broken extrusion, but > I'd never > > > > > call it "easy". It's also more prone to twisting loads and to > lots of > > > > > distortion when it does break. I don't think that there's any gain > > > here. > > > > > > > > May be it's easy to repair extrusion in US or Canada, but in other > > > > parts of the worl it could be realy problem. ...I read some story > > > > about yacht with broken mast in indonesia (Bali) and they had to > motor > > > > to Thailand to find somebody for repairing aluminium mast. ...I > think > > > > SS steel mast you could repair nearly everywhere. > > > > > > Since you're saying that steel is OK for your use, comparing it to > > > repairing an aluminum mast wouldn't be fair - and sleeving a steel > tube > > > is a fairly simple job. On the other hand, with your rig, I'd > always be > > > worried about being able to find a machine shop that could manufacture > > > the right-sized pieces if anything happened - as well as the cost of > > > doing so. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET* > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17430|17410|2008-05-20 02:16:48|brentswain38|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|610 kG is a heavy motor, probably a lot heavier that one would want. Also getting air out of the engine compartment was something I found troublesome with an air cooled diesel. I wouldn't use it . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hh2299" wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > intend to live on it. > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac generator > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, diesel > electric. > > Here are my questions: > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, uses > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > after I am dead and buried. > > > Videos of the Lister running: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4&feature=related > > Specs on the motor > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > AC generator > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > Pump for water maker > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > Charge control for the alternator > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > > Regards, > > Brad > | 17431|6188|2008-05-20 02:24:33|brentswain38|Re: Lattice mast|Don't start the taper on a mast until 70%above the decks . Otherwise the end will be too bendy. A friend sailed 19 years in the South Pacific with a grown solid mast and is still using it. The first one he started the taper to soon so it was too bendy on top. Then he did one properly and got decades out of it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 01:15:55AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > > > I was thinking of a lattice mast , tho put off by the ugliness and > > lack of > > > hidey hole space for wires etc , then on reading Dudley Dix on steel > > tube > > > masts , am now pretty sold on those , weighing 8.6 kg per metre for my > > > approx.required diameter , c.f. 8.7 for solid spruce and 8.3 for ali. > > > james > > > > > > > For a dirt-cheap mast, you might want to look at wooden telegraph or > > electric poles - in Britain old ones can be bought for a tenner, new > > ones for a couple of hundred quid. They make good unstayed junk masts > > either 'as is' or hollowed out, but if you're planning on using stays > > you could opt for a smaller diameter and remove a lot more inner wood > > to get the weight down. > > A lot more work than with a steel tube or ally extrusion, but very > > little money involved with a wooden pole. > > Really good call there. I've known a few people who bought an old wooden > telephone pole (after carefully picking out the best one in the lot), > shaved it down a bit, and used it; all of them reported being very, very > happy with it. No rot, ever... > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17432|17424|2008-05-20 02:27:07|brentswain38|Re: Marine exaust manafold|Yes . When my Isuzu manifold rusted badly, I copied it in stainless sch 40 type 316 pipe. No problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Langelo" wrote: > > Has any body tried with sucess making a stainless water jacketed exaust > manifold. My 25 hp. Izuzu diesel's manifold is falling apart, and I > have enough scrap stainless to build a new one. > > John > | 17433|6188|2008-05-20 10:30:18|sae140|Re: Lattice mast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Don't start the taper on a mast until 70% above the decks . Which reminds me of a 'hybrid' mast I once read about: a guy was on passage with an unstayed ally junk mast which was made from two lengths of which the upper section was tapered, with the two being held together by a sleeve and some epoxy glue. One day the guy looked up to see that the upper section had become bent, had unglued itself and had started to rotate, so he made an unscheduled landfall (in the Azores if memory serves) to effect repairs. The facilities there were a tad basic but one shipwright came up with the idea of fashioning a replacement tapered upper section from wood which was duly inserted into the lower ally section and held in place by several screws. The trip was completed without further problems. Colin| 17434|17424|2008-05-20 13:07:54|John Langelo|Re: Marine exaust manafold|Did you use the original flanges, or did you also make them out of stainless? John brentswain38 wrote: Yes . When my Isuzu manifold rusted badly, I copied it in stainless sch 40 type 316 pipe. No problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Langelo" wrote: > > Has any body tried with sucess making a stainless water jacketed exaust > manifold. My 25 hp. Izuzu diesel's manifold is falling apart, and I > have enough scrap stainless to build a new one. > > John > --------------------------------- Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17435|6188|2008-05-20 16:19:55|Carl Anderson|Re: Lattice mast|What are the dimensions & inertia moments for the mast? Does this pricing include the rigging and any halyards? is it just the mast & boom (including goose neck)? Carl mickeyolaf wrote: > > Another mast is coming up to BC with mine on the same truck. It's 42', > has a 6 sheave head, cutter rigged and fitted out same as mine. It's > for a Fraser 36 a friend of mine is building in Parksville. His cost > for the mast and factory boom was US $6113. > We are splitting the cost of CDN $900 to ship the two of them from LA > to Vancouver, BC. > The rip-off-ridiculous quote I was given in BC for a 47' mast was > $12,800 and $3100 for the boom. Our cost in LA including shipping is > way less than half that price for a better product. > > On a lighter note I was just in Kingston, Ontario. The two marinas I > visited were both a third full. The one beside the Kingston Federal > Pen had direct access to the Thousand Islands and the lake and was > deserted. I don't know what gives here in BC where u wait for years > for a 40' slip and Ontario marinas are waiting for boats. > > Speaking of rip offs, some Vancouver marinas are now charging by the > slip length instead of your boat length. So a 32' boat in a 40' slip > pays for 40'. They just stuck this new method of accounting to all of > the boaters at Captain's Cove on the Fraser River. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 05:23:13PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > > > Why not build a hollow wooden mast with solid fillers for compression > > > spots. There are lots of different designs. The two halves method > > > allows u to epoxy coat the interior to prevent rot, place drain tubes > > > for any water that finds it way inside etc, before the final glue up. > > > > > > An aluminum mast in the US, 47' ready to stand and insert running > > > rigging is $5780.00. That for a cutter rig, four sheave head, with all > > > of the tangs, winch pads, spreaders, spinnaker track, mast tray, > > > toggles, 3 coats of white polyurethane, six cleats, vang pad, boom > > > attachment and more. > > > > That's right in line with what I was hearing - $3300 for a bare 40' > > stick very easily translates to the above number with all the features > > you've listed. In fact, it sounds like you got a really great deal > > (although this is definitely _not_ the Brent way. :) > > > > If I ever have to put up another stick, I'm going to give either the > > steel pipe or the wooden telephone pole approach a good hard think - > > although I'll admit I'm already somewhat inclined toward the latter (the > > modulus of flexibility of wood and the weight-to-strength ratio is > > pretty impressive stuff.) > > > > Speaking of aluminum - I think I've mentioned it here before, but this > > works _really_ well: if you have aluminum that's got to stay bare, and > > it's starting to oxidize, hit it really hard with a wire brush (try to > > get all the white powder out) and soak it - and I mean really dripping > > wet - with WD-40. Resoak it for three days in a row, and it'll stay > > oxidation-free damn near forever. I just went out to look at the winch > > plates on my main mast; it's been almost 9 years since I treated them > > that way, and they're still literally perfect. I don't know of anything > > you can do to new aluminum that would protect it this well. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > | 17436|6188|2008-05-20 20:56:03|mickeyolaf|Re: Lattice mast|The inertia moments are 14 x 37. Dimensions 9.125 x 5.25 x .156. Weight = 4.8lbs per foot. Top 4' tapered. All electric wiring and pulls included. I supplied the halyards, norsemen, and 1 x 19 ss wire and turnbuckles plus I supplied the lights and 2 winches and two triple spinlocks and the radar platform, VHS antenna, and windex. I will install my own wind speed when I find one I like. The rest is supplied installed included in the price. Yes, it is for the mast and boom and both are finished except for what I listed above. Everything is internal in mast and boom so there are two welded sheave boxes for the staysail halyard and spin pole halyard plus 6 exits to two triple Spinlock clutches with two 28 Andersens and 6 backup cleats. Gooseneck was included plus reefing hooks etc. Head toggles also included. 4 sheave masthead is a work of art. Paint is Matterhorn white 2 part poly. Stainless block tray included for base. There's a 3rd builder from Qualicum Beach on V/Island also getting a mast from LA, but he waited too long to decide and missed the truck. A friend of mine who races a 36 helped me put together the best way to structure the mast and my deck rigging so I can run it myself with little effort. I will post pictures for those interested in a week or so. The boat will have a cabin top traveller, plus staysail traveller (self tacking), plus 36 feet of deck track for cars so I can fly a self tacking jib, or an inner staysail or a genny or a drifter/spinnaker or a blue poly tarp or my wife's knickers. I will agree though that Brent is right. I am so caught up in the rat race I am having trouble finishing this boat due to no time and I will have missed years of sailing due to my screwed up priorities. I am enjoying putting it together though. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > What are the dimensions & inertia moments for the mast? > Does this pricing include the rigging and any halyards? > is it just the mast & boom (including goose neck)? > > Carl > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > Another mast is coming up to BC with mine on the same truck. It's 42', > > has a 6 sheave head, cutter rigged and fitted out same as mine. It's > > for a Fraser 36 a friend of mine is building in Parksville. His cost > > for the mast and factory boom was US $6113. > > We are splitting the cost of CDN $900 to ship the two of them from LA > > to Vancouver, BC. > > The rip-off-ridiculous quote I was given in BC for a 47' mast was > > $12,800 and $3100 for the boom. Our cost in LA including shipping is > > way less than half that price for a better product. > > > > On a lighter note I was just in Kingston, Ontario. The two marinas I > > visited were both a third full. The one beside the Kingston Federal > > Pen had direct access to the Thousand Islands and the lake and was > > deserted. I don't know what gives here in BC where u wait for years > > for a 40' slip and Ontario marinas are waiting for boats. > > > > Speaking of rip offs, some Vancouver marinas are now charging by the > > slip length instead of your boat length. So a 32' boat in a 40' slip > > pays for 40'. They just stuck this new method of accounting to all of > > the boaters at Captain's Cove on the Fraser River. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 05:23:13PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > Why not build a hollow wooden mast with solid fillers for compression > > > > spots. There are lots of different designs. The two halves method > > > > allows u to epoxy coat the interior to prevent rot, place drain tubes > > > > for any water that finds it way inside etc, before the final glue up. > > > > > > > > An aluminum mast in the US, 47' ready to stand and insert running > > > > rigging is $5780.00. That for a cutter rig, four sheave head, with all > > > > of the tangs, winch pads, spreaders, spinnaker track, mast tray, > > > > toggles, 3 coats of white polyurethane, six cleats, vang pad, boom > > > > attachment and more. > > > > > > That's right in line with what I was hearing - $3300 for a bare 40' > > > stick very easily translates to the above number with all the features > > > you've listed. In fact, it sounds like you got a really great deal > > > (although this is definitely _not_ the Brent way. :) > > > > > > If I ever have to put up another stick, I'm going to give either the > > > steel pipe or the wooden telephone pole approach a good hard think - > > > although I'll admit I'm already somewhat inclined toward the latter (the > > > modulus of flexibility of wood and the weight-to-strength ratio is > > > pretty impressive stuff.) > > > > > > Speaking of aluminum - I think I've mentioned it here before, but this > > > works _really_ well: if you have aluminum that's got to stay bare, and > > > it's starting to oxidize, hit it really hard with a wire brush (try to > > > get all the white powder out) and soak it - and I mean really dripping > > > wet - with WD-40. Resoak it for three days in a row, and it'll stay > > > oxidation-free damn near forever. I just went out to look at the winch > > > plates on my main mast; it's been almost 9 years since I treated them > > > that way, and they're still literally perfect. I don't know of anything > > > you can do to new aluminum that would protect it this well. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > > > | 17437|17424|2008-05-21 02:22:48|brentswain38|Re: Marine exaust manafold|I made everything out of stainless, flanges included. I should have done that the first time . Vic Klassen, the dealer I bought the engine from in the first place said "Being a steelworker, you don't have to buy a manifold , you can easily make your own." I did , but mistakenly built the first one out of mild steel. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, John Langelo wrote: > > Did you use the original flanges, or did you also make them out of stainless? > > John > > brentswain38 wrote: > Yes . When my Isuzu manifold rusted badly, I copied it in stainless > sch 40 type 316 pipe. No problem. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Langelo" wrote: > > > > Has any body tried with sucess making a stainless water jacketed > exaust > > manifold. My 25 hp. Izuzu diesel's manifold is falling apart, and I > > have enough scrap stainless to build a new one. > > > > John > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17438|17424|2008-05-21 03:47:29|edward_stoneuk|Re: Marine exaust manafold|Hi Brent, Did you make the manifold with a water jacket? Regards, Ted| 17439|17424|2008-05-21 05:30:13|Paul Wilson|Re: Marine exhaust manifold|Hey Brent, I have the same question as Ted..."is it water jacketed?" When I bought my engine, Vic Klassen told me to never make a stainless water-jacketed manifold since you can get pin holes that will let the water leak back into the engine and seize it up. He told me at the time that he got a lot of business out of stainless exhausts. When he made my manifold he used mechanical (Shelby) tubing which has a really heavy wall and is I believe made from mild steel. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 6:23 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Marine exaust manafold I made everything out of stainless, flanges included. I should have done that the first time . Vic Klassen, the dealer I bought the engine from in the first place said "Being a steelworker, you don't have to buy a manifold , you can easily make your own." I did , but mistakenly built the first one out of mild steel. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , John Langelo wrote: > > Did you use the original flanges, or did you also make them out of stainless? > > John > > brentswain38 wrote: > Yes . When my Isuzu manifold rusted badly, I copied it in stainless > sch 40 type 316 pipe. No problem. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "John Langelo" wrote: > > > > Has any body tried with sucess making a stainless water jacketed > exaust > > manifold. My 25 hp. Izuzu diesel's manifold is falling apart, and I > > have enough scrap stainless to build a new one. > > > > John > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1457 - Release Date: 5/20/2008 4:45 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17440|17424|2008-05-21 14:21:16|brentswain38|Re: Marine exhaust manifold|Yes. I made up the manifold out of 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe then cut a slot out of one side of a 2 inch pipe and welded it on the outside for the water jacket. Then I welded the ends shut , and welded an inlet and outlet on. The outlet goes to the header tank , then to the skeg. You can test it with tap water pressure. I have been trying silicone hose as a flex for my dry exhuast. When I put it right next to the head of an aircooled diesel , it was OK at 3/4 throttle, but burned at full throttle. I tried it two feet away from my current engine with the watercooled manifold and it was OK . Now I have hose clamped it on my exhuaust less than a foot from the head and it still hasn't burned . I think by keeping it at least a foot away from the head ,it will be OK for eliminating the metal flex pipe on a dry exhuast. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Hey Brent, > > > > I have the same question as Ted..."is it water jacketed?" > > > > When I bought my engine, Vic Klassen told me to never make a stainless > water-jacketed manifold since you can get pin holes that will let the water > leak back into the engine and seize it up. He told me at the time that he > got a lot of business out of stainless exhausts. When he made my manifold > he used mechanical (Shelby) tubing which has a really heavy wall and is I > believe made from mild steel. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 6:23 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Marine exaust manafold > > > > I made everything out of stainless, flanges included. I should have > done that the first time . Vic Klassen, the dealer I bought the > engine from in the first place said "Being a steelworker, you don't > have to buy a manifold , you can easily make your own." I did , but > mistakenly built the first one out of mild steel. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , John Langelo wrote: > > > > Did you use the original flanges, or did you also make them out of > stainless? > > > > John > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > Yes . When my Isuzu manifold rusted badly, I copied it > in stainless > > sch 40 type 316 pipe. No problem. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "John Langelo" wrote: > > > > > > Has any body tried with sucess making a stainless water jacketed > > exaust > > > manifold. My 25 hp. Izuzu diesel's manifold is falling apart, > and I > > > have enough scrap stainless to build a new one. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Yahoo! Canada > Messenger for the Web BETA > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1457 - Release Date: 5/20/2008 > 4:45 PM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17441|17424|2008-05-21 16:02:50|John Langelo|Re: Marine exhaust manifold|Thanks Brent for the info. John brentswain38 wrote: Yes. I made up the manifold out of 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe then cut a slot out of one side of a 2 inch pipe and welded it on the outside for the water jacket. Then I welded the ends shut , and welded an inlet and outlet on. The outlet goes to the header tank , then to the skeg. You can test it with tap water pressure. I have been trying silicone hose as a flex for my dry exhuast. When I put it right next to the head of an aircooled diesel , it was OK at 3/4 throttle, but burned at full throttle. I tried it two feet away from my current engine with the watercooled manifold and it was OK . Now I have hose clamped it on my exhuaust less than a foot from the head and it still hasn't burned . I think by keeping it at least a foot away from the head ,it will be OK for eliminating the metal flex pipe on a dry exhuast. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Hey Brent, > > > > I have the same question as Ted..."is it water jacketed?" > > > > When I bought my engine, Vic Klassen told me to never make a stainless > water-jacketed manifold since you can get pin holes that will let the water > leak back into the engine and seize it up. He told me at the time that he > got a lot of business out of stainless exhausts. When he made my manifold > he used mechanical (Shelby) tubing which has a really heavy wall and is I > believe made from mild steel. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 6:23 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Marine exaust manafold > > > > I made everything out of stainless, flanges included. I should have > done that the first time . Vic Klassen, the dealer I bought the > engine from in the first place said "Being a steelworker, you don't > have to buy a manifold , you can easily make your own." I did , but > mistakenly built the first one out of mild steel. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , John Langelo wrote: > > > > Did you use the original flanges, or did you also make them out of > stainless? > > > > John > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > Yes . When my Isuzu manifold rusted badly, I copied it > in stainless > > sch 40 type 316 pipe. No problem. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "John Langelo" wrote: > > > > > > Has any body tried with sucess making a stainless water jacketed > > exaust > > > manifold. My 25 hp. Izuzu diesel's manifold is falling apart, > and I > > > have enough scrap stainless to build a new one. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Yahoo! Canada > Messenger for the Web BETA > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1457 - Release Date: 5/20/2008 > 4:45 PM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17442|17410|2008-05-21 21:24:20|peter_d_wiley|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|I've got a Lister FR2 in my shed. It was designed from the ground up as a marine diesel, complete with F-N-R g/box. Cost me $100 Weighs 600 kg. 15 HP at 1500 rpm - a *real* diesel and can drive a big prop at slow rpm. I wouldn't dream of putting it in a hull like a BS36. Far too big & heavy. They use engines like this in the English narrowboats and around here they went into cray boats and the like. For torque output it probably compares to a modern high speed 30HP or better engine. Not an engine for a yacht though. I definitely wouldn't put one of the Lister air cooled singles in either. Lovely engines, run forever on clean fuel, but there are far better alternatives. I picked up a used Chinese copy of a Yanmar industrial diesel with 3.5:1 marine gearbox for $400. Not sure how good it is - Ebay purchase and it's still in transit. I wanted the box more than the motor. With it and a Yanmar industrial 20HP or similar engine running around 2000 rpm I can get a prop shaft speed of less than 700 rpm, so big prop, low revs, lots of torque. Now I'm looking at a Yanmar 3QM30 used, and there are other options out there. That engine is about perfect for my needs but I'll get by happily with less if I need to. My advice is to keep looking. If you can, grab a marine g/box with a good reduction ratio. There are lots more options for engines than gearboxes. In case you don't know, you CANNOT use an auto gearbox unless you ensure that the prop thrust is handled by a thrust bearing assy on the prop shaft. Auto g/boxes are not designed to take any significant end thrust. I have my own ideas on prop shaft assys but that's a topic for some other time. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hh2299" wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > intend to live on it. > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac generator > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, diesel > electric. > > Here are my questions: > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, uses > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > after I am dead and buried. > > > Videos of the Lister running: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4&feature=related > > Specs on the motor > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > AC generator > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > Pump for water maker > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > Charge control for the alternator > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > > Regards, > > Brad > | 17443|17424|2008-05-22 04:20:31|sae140|Re: Marine exaust manafold|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I made everything out of stainless, flanges included. I should have > done that the first time . Vic Klassen, the dealer I bought the > engine from in the first place said "Being a steelworker, you don't > have to buy a manifold , you can easily make your own." I did , but > mistakenly built the first one out of mild steel. > Brent > One part I see as being a tad awkward to make is an exhaust manifold flange. On some marine petrol engines it's an inlet/exhaust combo with round inlet and square exhaust port shaped holes. How best to make such a flange in stainless with basic tools ? The only idea which comes to mind is to cut the flange in half to enable the shapes to be carefully cut with an angle grinder, then weld the 2 halves back together. Colin| 17444|17424|2008-05-22 06:16:26|T & D Cain|Re: Marine exhaust manifold|A plasma cutter is well suited to this type of cutting operation. The shape can be made enlarged as a guide (to provide the nozzle offset), and then clamped to the upper surface of the SS plate. The guide could be wood or almost any material which the ICE torch will smoothly run past. The heating at ( typically) 40mm away horizontally is not a worry. If one has steady hands and good assisted vision, a freehand cut is not too difficult to trim with either file or a die grinder. Perhaps a plasma cutter is not a basic tool, but those cuts could be done relatively cheaply and very quickly, by someone who does have one and charges for time +. In its pure form, the DIY way would drill a series of closely-spaced holes and do the time honored thing of joining them via a small rat tail file followed by a junior hacksaw? For the eight or ? holes, the shop with the cutting gear is the quickest and least fretful. How much time (whatever that is) is involved is a personal issue. What that time is worth is a deeper issue. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Thursday, 22 May 2008 5:50 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Marine exaust manafold --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I made everything out of stainless, flanges included. I should have > done that the first time . Vic Klassen, the dealer I bought the > engine from in the first place said "Being a steelworker, you don't > have to buy a manifold , you can easily make your own." I did , but > mistakenly built the first one out of mild steel. > Brent > One part I see as being a tad awkward to make is an exhaust manifold flange. On some marine petrol engines it's an inlet/exhaust combo with round inlet and square exhaust port shaped holes. How best to make such a flange in stainless with basic tools ? The only idea which comes to mind is to cut the flange in half to enable the shapes to be carefully cut with an angle grinder, then weld the 2 halves back together. Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17445|17445|2008-05-22 23:59:42|Tom Mann|BS 26 getting closer|Hello All Finally got back after it, been working on the trailer. The axles were mounted under the springs and it was way to tall so I bought a new set of 3 leaf springs and mounted the axles above, plus had to notch axles to clear keel rest. Lowered it 5" and that's a big difference. This is the first time lifting the boat since putting the lead in and I was a little worried about the two one ton chain hoist being able to handle it but no problem. Pulled the rudder off and it balanced perfect from the lift points so its dang close to the fore and aft balance. Couple more things on the outside of the boat, little touch up sandblasting and few more coats of epoxy and I'm going sailing, interior is roughed in and will have that rustic look, "LOL " first time out. I want to see where she floats before I mount the heavy stuff in. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17446|17424|2008-05-23 04:45:02|sae140|Re: Marine exhaust manifold|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > A plasma cutter is well suited to this type of cutting operation. I'm sure even oxy-acetylene with a steady hand would carve-out the holes - but it's then a question of how do you get into the holes to clean 'em up ? In a perfect world a milling machine would be favourite of course. > In its pure form, the DIY way would drill a series of closely-spaced holes > and do the time honored thing of joining them via a small rat tail file > followed by a junior hacksaw? With mild steel, certainly this would be the way to go, but I think we're talking fairly thick stainless here. I've lost quite a few files to stainless over the years, even though I've never quite understood why tools should lose their cutting edges to stainless quite so easily. Maybe it's the Chrome work-hardening that does it ? I was curious as to the method Brent used, as I've gained the impression that he tends to be a 'self-sufficient' steel worker. Colin| 17447|17424|2008-05-23 05:30:53|T & D Cain|Re: Marine exhaust manifold|Hi Colin, I think the parts in question are the flanges? The flanges are welded to tubes either as normal pipe flanges or as extensions to the stubs. There is not a lot of length in the latter flow path for finishing if I have read the thread correctly. If the flanges were cut to fit over the tube stubs, there is no problem. We need a diagrammatic view to understand the issue. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Friday, 23 May 2008 6:15 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Marine exhaust manifold --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > A plasma cutter is well suited to this type of cutting operation. I'm sure even oxy-acetylene with a steady hand would carve-out the holes - but it's then a question of how do you get into the holes to clean 'em up ? In a perfect world a milling machine would be favourite of course. > In its pure form, the DIY way would drill a series of closely-spaced holes > and do the time honored thing of joining them via a small rat tail file > followed by a junior hacksaw? With mild steel, certainly this would be the way to go, but I think we're talking fairly thick stainless here. I've lost quite a few files to stainless over the years, even though I've never quite understood why tools should lose their cutting edges to stainless quite so easily. Maybe it's the Chrome work-hardening that does it ? I was curious as to the method Brent used, as I've gained the impression that he tends to be a 'self-sufficient' steel worker. Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17448|17424|2008-05-23 12:10:47|sae140|Re: Marine exhaust manifold|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > Hi Colin, I think the parts in question are the flanges? > > The flanges are welded to tubes either as normal pipe flanges or as > extensions to the stubs. > > There is not a lot of length in the latter flow path for finishing if I have > read the thread correctly. > > If the flanges were cut to fit over the tube stubs, there is no problem. > > We need a diagrammatic view to understand the issue. > > Terry Hi Terry - the part I'm focussing on is the exhaust manifold 'flange' (if that's the right word) which mates with the cylinder head, having an asbestos-type gasket inserted between 'em. I've seen several variations used at this location - sometimes it's a single full-length piece of steel with a hole machined into it for each exhaust pipe, and sometimes the exhaust pipes themselves terminate with small oval flanges providing 'lugs' to each side for the securing bolts. On some none-crossflow petrol engines the same flange is shared by both inlet and outlet ports. I think you're right - a diagram here would be worth a few hundred words. Colin| 17449|17449|2008-05-23 15:13:23|ng990084|building area?|Looking to get a warehouse to build a BS36. What would be the dimensions needed to comfortably build it (including door to get it out :) ) Thanks, Brad.| 17450|17410|2008-05-23 15:17:17|ng990084|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Brad here, sorry forgot what faked personal info i gave yahoo so had to make another account :P Ok the Lister is out, I'll pencil in the Petter for now. The engine will be for generating power. I expect to run it for about an hour a day to charge batteries, heat water and for heavy AC loads. This will be 99% of its use. I figure 6hp should get me about 4kw and any bigger would be wasted. What I need to know is max and preferred weight allowance/size/placement. Brent, it was half that weight and water cooled. Tug, I realize that diesel-electric will be inefficient but my thinking is to design for power generation and to save getting a second motor using electric for low power propulsion continuously or by drawing on battery some heavy grunt for a limited time. I figure engine use would be mostly for power not propulsion. Paul, thanks for the suggestions, I was looking at some of the Chinese made German designed diesels anyhow plenty of time I figure mid next year before I have enough cash to make a start. Brad. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > I've got a Lister FR2 in my shed. It was designed from the ground up > as a marine diesel, complete with F-N-R g/box. > > Cost me $100 > > Weighs 600 kg. > > 15 HP at 1500 rpm - a *real* diesel and can drive a big prop at slow rpm. > > I wouldn't dream of putting it in a hull like a BS36. Far too big & > heavy. They use engines like this in the English narrowboats and > around here they went into cray boats and the like. For torque output > it probably compares to a modern high speed 30HP or better engine. > > Not an engine for a yacht though. I definitely wouldn't put one of the > Lister air cooled singles in either. Lovely engines, run forever on > clean fuel, but there are far better alternatives. > > I picked up a used Chinese copy of a Yanmar industrial diesel with > 3.5:1 marine gearbox for $400. Not sure how good it is - Ebay purchase > and it's still in transit. I wanted the box more than the motor. With > it and a Yanmar industrial 20HP or similar engine running around 2000 > rpm I can get a prop shaft speed of less than 700 rpm, so big prop, > low revs, lots of torque. Now I'm looking at a Yanmar 3QM30 used, and > there are other options out there. That engine is about perfect for my > needs but I'll get by happily with less if I need to. > > My advice is to keep looking. If you can, grab a marine g/box with a > good reduction ratio. There are lots more options for engines than > gearboxes. In case you don't know, you CANNOT use an auto gearbox > unless you ensure that the prop thrust is handled by a thrust bearing > assy on the prop shaft. Auto g/boxes are not designed to take any > significant end thrust. > > I have my own ideas on prop shaft assys but that's a topic for some > other time. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hh2299" wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > > intend to live on it. > > > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac generator > > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, diesel > > electric. > > > > Here are my questions: > > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, uses > > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > > after I am dead and buried. > > > > > > Videos of the Lister running: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4&feature=related > > > > Specs on the motor > > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > > > AC generator > > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > > > Pump for water maker > > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > > > Charge control for the alternator > > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Brad > > > | 17451|17410|2008-05-24 08:59:55|Shane Duncan|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|  "' I figure engine use would be mostly for power not propulsion. '' ''This will be 99% of its use''   the raw energy costs for wind turbines and solar power have not increased over the last 2 years the raw energy costs of powering a 6hp internal combustion engine have.   ----- Original Message ---- From: ng990084 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 4:17:15 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? Brad here, sorry forgot what faked personal info i gave yahoo so had to make another account :P Ok the Lister is out, I'll pencil in the Petter for now. The engine will be for generating power. I expect to run it for about an hour a day to charge batteries, heat water and for heavy AC loads. This will be 99% of its use. I figure 6hp should get me about 4kw and any bigger would be wasted. What I need to know is max and preferred weight allowance/size/placement. Brent, it was half that weight and water cooled. Tug, I realize that diesel-electric will be inefficient but my thinking is to design for power generation and to save getting a second motor using electric for low power propulsion continuously or by drawing on battery some heavy grunt for a limited time. I figure engine use would be mostly for power not propulsion. Paul, thanks for the suggestions, I was looking at some of the Chinese made German designed diesels anyhow plenty of time I figure mid next year before I have enough cash to make a start. Brad. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > I've got a Lister FR2 in my shed. It was designed from the ground up > as a marine diesel, complete with F-N-R g/box. > > Cost me $100 > > Weighs 600 kg. > > 15 HP at 1500 rpm - a *real* diesel and can drive a big prop at slow rpm. > > I wouldn't dream of putting it in a hull like a BS36. Far too big & > heavy. They use engines like this in the English narrowboats and > around here they went into cray boats and the like. For torque output > it probably compares to a modern high speed 30HP or better engine. > > Not an engine for a yacht though. I definitely wouldn't put one of the > Lister air cooled singles in either. Lovely engines, run forever on > clean fuel, but there are far better alternatives. > > I picked up a used Chinese copy of a Yanmar industrial diesel with > 3.5:1 marine gearbox for $400. Not sure how good it is - Ebay purchase > and it's still in transit. I wanted the box more than the motor. With > it and a Yanmar industrial 20HP or similar engine running around 2000 > rpm I can get a prop shaft speed of less than 700 rpm, so big prop, > low revs, lots of torque. Now I'm looking at a Yanmar 3QM30 used, and > there are other options out there. That engine is about perfect for my > needs but I'll get by happily with less if I need to. > > My advice is to keep looking. If you can, grab a marine g/box with a > good reduction ratio. There are lots more options for engines than > gearboxes. In case you don't know, you CANNOT use an auto gearbox > unless you ensure that the prop thrust is handled by a thrust bearing > assy on the prop shaft. Auto g/boxes are not designed to take any > significant end thrust. > > I have my own ideas on prop shaft assys but that's a topic for some > other time. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hh2299" wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > > intend to live on it. > > > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac generator > > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, diesel > > electric. > > > > Here are my questions: > > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, uses > > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > > after I am dead and buried. > > > > > > Videos of the Lister running: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4&feature=related > > > > Specs on the motor > > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > > > AC generator > > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > > > Pump for water maker > > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > > > Charge control for the alternator > > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Brad > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17453|17424|2008-05-24 11:50:57|adam sweet|Re: Marine exhaust manifold|A trick that I used to use for engine swaps in various vehicles was to take an off-the-shelf exhaust gasket, and trace it onto a piece of plate steel, then cut it out with the plasma cutter. Then check it against the head, and lean up the fit with a die grinder. cheers! Adam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17455|6188|2008-05-25 13:51:04|Paul Cotter|Re: Lattice mast|If my memory serves, someone in this group once had a lattice mast and noted that it was loud due to wind whistling through the lattice work. Yet another reason to shy away from them....... On May 16, 2008, at 7:31 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 01:15:55AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > > > I was thinking of a lattice mast , tho put off by the ugliness and > > lack of > > > hidey hole space for wires etc , then on reading Dudley Dix on > steel > > tube > > > masts , am now pretty sold on those , weighing 8.6 kg per metre > for my > > > approx.required diameter , c.f. 8.7 for solid spruce and 8.3 > for ali. > > > james > > > > > > > For a dirt-cheap mast, you might want to look at wooden telegraph or > > electric poles - in Britain old ones can be bought for a tenner, new > > ones for a couple of hundred quid. They make good unstayed junk > masts > > either 'as is' or hollowed out, but if you're planning on using > stays > > you could opt for a smaller diameter and remove a lot more inner > wood > > to get the weight down. > > A lot more work than with a steel tube or ally extrusion, but very > > little money involved with a wooden pole. > > Really good call there. I've known a few people who bought an old > wooden > telephone pole (after carefully picking out the best one in the lot), > shaved it down a bit, and used it; all of them reported being very, > very > happy with it. No rot, ever... > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http:// > LinuxGazette.NET * > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17456|17424|2008-05-25 17:31:08|brentswain38|Re: Marine exhaust manifold|I may have gone down to 1 1/4 pipe for the outlets at the head, feeding into the 1 1/2 inch pipe. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, I think the parts in question are the flanges? > > > > The flanges are welded to tubes either as normal pipe flanges or as > > extensions to the stubs. > > > > There is not a lot of length in the latter flow path for finishing > if I have > > read the thread correctly. > > > > If the flanges were cut to fit over the tube stubs, there is no > problem. > > > > We need a diagrammatic view to understand the issue. > > > > Terry > > Hi Terry - the part I'm focussing on is the exhaust manifold 'flange' > (if that's the right word) which mates with the cylinder head, having > an asbestos-type gasket inserted between 'em. > I've seen several variations used at this location - sometimes it's a > single full-length piece of steel with a hole machined into it for > each exhaust pipe, and sometimes the exhaust pipes themselves > terminate with small oval flanges providing 'lugs' to each side for > the securing bolts. > On some none-crossflow petrol engines the same flange is shared by > both inlet and outlet ports. > > I think you're right - a diagram here would be worth a few hundred words. > > Colin > | 17457|17449|2008-05-25 17:39:35|brentswain38|Re: building area?|I once pulled together a hull outside the garage that was too small to fit it in, then pulled the stern in and threw a tarp over the bow. With most of the detailing being on the aft end, we only had to pick good weather to work on the bow. It takes a much bigger area to pull the hull together, a few days work, than it takes to finish a boat. Once the beam has been pulled in , it can be dragged inside and the decks etc can be put on. To finish her 18 ft minimum is wide enough, by about 40 ft long, but it can be shorter if you leave the bow out. About 14 ft high is enough to get her out the door. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ng990084" wrote: > > Looking to get a warehouse to build a BS36. What would be the > dimensions needed to comfortably build it (including door to get it > out :) ) > > Thanks, > > Brad. > | 17458|17445|2008-05-25 18:40:23|Paul Cotter|Re: BS 26 getting closer|Great work Tom. By the way, how much lead did you end up using for ballast? Paul On May 22, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Tom Mann wrote: > Hello All > Finally got back after it, been working on the trailer. The axles were > mounted under the springs and it was way to tall so I bought a new > set of 3 > leaf springs and mounted the axles above, plus had to notch axles > to clear > keel rest. Lowered it 5" and that's a big difference. > This is the first time lifting the boat since putting the lead in > and I was > a little worried about the two one ton chain hoist being able to > handle it > but no problem. Pulled the rudder off and it balanced perfect from > the lift > points so its dang close to the fore and aft balance. > Couple more things on the outside of the boat, little touch up > sandblasting and few more coats of epoxy and I'm going sailing, > interior is > roughed in and will have that rustic look, > "LOL " first time out. I want to see where she floats before I > mount the > heavy stuff in. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17459|17410|2008-05-25 18:41:54|peter_d_wiley|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Wind generators on boats have derisory power outputs and cost a fortune. Solar cells are expensive and need a lot of scarce real estate. Not to mention the windage. Brent's sketches of a towed water generator strike me as a far more sensible way of generating power while underway unless you need kilowatts, and if you do, there *is* no current alternative to a gen set of some sort. Which brings one right back to fossil fuels. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > "' I figure engine use would be mostly for power not propulsion. '' > ''This will be 99% of its use'' > > the raw energy costs for wind turbines and solar power have not increased over the last 2 years > the raw energy costs of powering a 6hp internal combustion engine have. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: ng990084 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 4:17:15 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? > > Brad here, sorry forgot what faked personal info i gave yahoo so had > to make another account :P > > Ok the Lister is out, I'll pencil in the Petter for now. > > The engine will be for generating power. I expect to run it for about > an hour a day to charge batteries, heat water and for heavy AC loads. > This will be 99% of its use. I figure 6hp should get me about 4kw and > any bigger would be wasted. > > What I need to know is max and preferred weight allowance/size/placement. > > > Brent, it was half that weight and water cooled. > Tug, I realize that diesel-electric will be inefficient but my > thinking is to design for power generation and to save getting a > second motor using electric for low power propulsion continuously or > by drawing on battery some heavy grunt for a limited time. I figure > engine use would be mostly for power not propulsion. > Paul, thanks for the suggestions, I was looking at some of the Chinese > made German designed diesels anyhow plenty of time I figure mid next > year before I have enough cash to make a start. > > Brad. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > I've got a Lister FR2 in my shed. It was designed from the ground up > > as a marine diesel, complete with F-N-R g/box. > > > > Cost me $100 > > > > Weighs 600 kg. > > > > 15 HP at 1500 rpm - a *real* diesel and can drive a big prop at slow > rpm. > > > > I wouldn't dream of putting it in a hull like a BS36. Far too big & > > heavy. They use engines like this in the English narrowboats and > > around here they went into cray boats and the like. For torque output > > it probably compares to a modern high speed 30HP or better engine. > > > > Not an engine for a yacht though. I definitely wouldn't put one of the > > Lister air cooled singles in either. Lovely engines, run forever on > > clean fuel, but there are far better alternatives. > > > > I picked up a used Chinese copy of a Yanmar industrial diesel with > > 3.5:1 marine gearbox for $400. Not sure how good it is - Ebay purchase > > and it's still in transit. I wanted the box more than the motor. With > > it and a Yanmar industrial 20HP or similar engine running around 2000 > > rpm I can get a prop shaft speed of less than 700 rpm, so big prop, > > low revs, lots of torque. Now I'm looking at a Yanmar 3QM30 used, and > > there are other options out there. That engine is about perfect for my > > needs but I'll get by happily with less if I need to. > > > > My advice is to keep looking. If you can, grab a marine g/box with a > > good reduction ratio. There are lots more options for engines than > > gearboxes. In case you don't know, you CANNOT use an auto gearbox > > unless you ensure that the prop thrust is handled by a thrust bearing > > assy on the prop shaft. Auto g/boxes are not designed to take any > > significant end thrust. > > > > I have my own ideas on prop shaft assys but that's a topic for some > > other time. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hh2299" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > > > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > > > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > > > intend to live on it. > > > > > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac generator > > > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > > > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > > > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, diesel > > > electric. > > > > > > Here are my questions: > > > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > > > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > > > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > > > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > > > > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, uses > > > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > > > after I am dead and buried. > > > > > > > > > Videos of the Lister running: > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4&feature=related > > > > > > Specs on the motor > > > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > > > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > > > > > AC generator > > > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > > > > > Pump for water maker > > > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > > > > > Charge control for the alternator > > > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17460|17449|2008-05-25 18:52:18|peter_d_wiley|Re: building area?|My workshop is 16m long by 7m wide for the main fabrication bay with 2 full length, 3m wide skillion wings each side for storage and machine shop, wood shop etc. Total of 13.2m wide all on concrete slab. 4.4m to the bottom chord of the trusses. Door opening 4m high by 4m wide. Mezzanine floor in one end for extra storage - it's amazing what you can get for free if you have the space to store it. I have enough timber to build at least 2 complete interiors. It's *not* for rent. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ng990084" wrote: > > Looking to get a warehouse to build a BS36. What would be the > dimensions needed to comfortably build it (including door to get it > out :) ) > > Thanks, > > Brad. > | 17461|17445|2008-05-25 19:16:11|Tom Mann|Re: BS 26 getting closer|Hello Paul I ended up using 1800 lbs of lead, not realy enough room to go with mix of concrete and steel. I lucked out and bought the last 700 lbs or so for 28 cents a pound. I had to pull the trailer back out from under the boat and weld in a new hanger kit, 1" taller + who ever put them in to start with could not read a tape measure. Planned on doing a little spot blasting on the decks today but it's raining. maybee next weekend. Tom On 5/25/08, Paul Cotter wrote: > > Great work Tom. > > By the way, how much lead did you end up using for ballast? > > Paul > > > On May 22, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Tom Mann wrote: > > > Hello All > > Finally got back after it, been working on the trailer. The axles were > > mounted under the springs and it was way to tall so I bought a new > > set of 3 > > leaf springs and mounted the axles above, plus had to notch axles > > to clear > > keel rest. Lowered it 5" and that's a big difference. > > This is the first time lifting the boat since putting the lead in > > and I was > > a little worried about the two one ton chain hoist being able to > > handle it > > but no problem. Pulled the rudder off and it balanced perfect from > > the lift > > points so its dang close to the fore and aft balance. > > Couple more things on the outside of the boat, little touch up > > sandblasting and few more coats of epoxy and I'm going sailing, > > interior is > > roughed in and will have that rustic look, > > "LOL " first time out. I want to see where she floats before I > > mount the > > heavy stuff in. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17462|17410|2008-05-26 00:02:36|ng990084|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|If I go down the diesel/electric track I should be able to work out a regen system esp if is a DC motor. The link is one of the motors I have been considering. http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/perm132.htm As for solar/wind it is something I can think about after it is in the water :) I have wondered though that you don't see wind gens on top of masts is there a reason for this? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Wind generators on boats have derisory power outputs and cost a > fortune. Solar cells are expensive and need a lot of scarce real > estate. Not to mention the windage. > > Brent's sketches of a towed water generator strike me as a far more > sensible way of generating power while underway unless you need > kilowatts, and if you do, there *is* no current alternative to a gen > set of some sort. Which brings one right back to fossil fuels. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > > > "' I figure engine use would be mostly for power not propulsion. '' > > ''This will be 99% of its use'' > > > > the raw energy costs for wind turbines and solar power have not > increased over the last 2 years > > the raw energy costs of powering a 6hp internal combustion engine have. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: ng990084 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 4:17:15 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? > > > > Brad here, sorry forgot what faked personal info i gave yahoo so had > > to make another account :P > > > > Ok the Lister is out, I'll pencil in the Petter for now. > > > > The engine will be for generating power. I expect to run it for about > > an hour a day to charge batteries, heat water and for heavy AC loads. > > This will be 99% of its use. I figure 6hp should get me about 4kw and > > any bigger would be wasted. > > > > What I need to know is max and preferred weight > allowance/size/placement. > > > > > > Brent, it was half that weight and water cooled. > > Tug, I realize that diesel-electric will be inefficient but my > > thinking is to design for power generation and to save getting a > > second motor using electric for low power propulsion continuously or > > by drawing on battery some heavy grunt for a limited time. I figure > > engine use would be mostly for power not propulsion. > > Paul, thanks for the suggestions, I was looking at some of the Chinese > > made German designed diesels anyhow plenty of time I figure mid next > > year before I have enough cash to make a start. > > > > Brad. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > I've got a Lister FR2 in my shed. It was designed from the ground up > > > as a marine diesel, complete with F-N-R g/box. > > > > > > Cost me $100 > > > > > > Weighs 600 kg. > > > > > > 15 HP at 1500 rpm - a *real* diesel and can drive a big prop at slow > > rpm. > > > > > > I wouldn't dream of putting it in a hull like a BS36. Far too big & > > > heavy. They use engines like this in the English narrowboats and > > > around here they went into cray boats and the like. For torque output > > > it probably compares to a modern high speed 30HP or better engine. > > > > > > Not an engine for a yacht though. I definitely wouldn't put one of the > > > Lister air cooled singles in either. Lovely engines, run forever on > > > clean fuel, but there are far better alternatives. > > > > > > I picked up a used Chinese copy of a Yanmar industrial diesel with > > > 3.5:1 marine gearbox for $400. Not sure how good it is - Ebay purchase > > > and it's still in transit. I wanted the box more than the motor. With > > > it and a Yanmar industrial 20HP or similar engine running around 2000 > > > rpm I can get a prop shaft speed of less than 700 rpm, so big prop, > > > low revs, lots of torque. Now I'm looking at a Yanmar 3QM30 used, and > > > there are other options out there. That engine is about perfect for my > > > needs but I'll get by happily with less if I need to. > > > > > > My advice is to keep looking. If you can, grab a marine g/box with a > > > good reduction ratio. There are lots more options for engines than > > > gearboxes. In case you don't know, you CANNOT use an auto gearbox > > > unless you ensure that the prop thrust is handled by a thrust bearing > > > assy on the prop shaft. Auto g/boxes are not designed to take any > > > significant end thrust. > > > > > > I have my own ideas on prop shaft assys but that's a topic for some > > > other time. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hh2299" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > > > > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > > > > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > > > > intend to live on it. > > > > > > > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac > generator > > > > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > > > > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > > > > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, > diesel > > > > electric. > > > > > > > > Here are my questions: > > > > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > > > > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > > > > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > > > > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > > > > > > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, > uses > > > > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > > > > after I am dead and buried. > > > > > > > > > > > > Videos of the Lister running: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4&feature=related > > > > > > > > Specs on the motor > > > > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > > > > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > > > > > > > AC generator > > > > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > > > > > > > Pump for water maker > > > > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > > > > > > > Charge control for the alternator > > > > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17463|17463|2008-05-26 00:30:46|SHANE ROTHWELL|Lister 6/1 ok fopr a BS36|Shane, you sed "The engine will be for generating power. I expect to run it for about an hour a day to charge batteries, heat water and for heavy AC loads. This will be 99% of its use. I figure 6hp should get me about 4kw and any bigger would be wasted." Ok, but I figurre your quite optomistic on what you will be able to net, or run in terms of an alternator or generator. Did a very similar setup myself on my boat some years back with an 8 HP yanmar that was rebuilt I had a 3 kw generator, an 80 amp alternator an an office pump (office = "oh fuck i'm scared" & that sucker would move water big time!) with the whole mess belted so I could switch between functins. anyway, 746 watts per hp which you probably know, but you have got to figure in the various inneficiencies of the system. your 6 hp lister/whatever is not going to be run full blast all the time & will you get a full 6 hp out of it?, maybe figure 75-80% is pretty good sos your not beating hell out of it? then there is the belt system which is going to cost you around 25% . chain drive is very effient, I'm told high 90's but don't know for sure. nother trick is to mount it on big oversized rubber mounts & over insulate for retention of sanity Cheers, Shane __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 17465|17463|2008-05-26 09:17:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: Lister 6/1 ok fopr a BS36|On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 12:30:44AM -0400, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > I had a 3 kw generator, an 80 amp alternator an an > office pump (office = "oh fuck i'm scared" & that Heh. Cute. > sucker would move water big time!) with the whole mess > belted so I could switch between functins. > > anyway, 746 watts per hp which you probably know, but > you have got to figure in the various inneficiencies > of the system. your 6 hp lister/whatever is not going > to be run full blast all the time & will you get a > full 6 hp out of it?, maybe figure 75-80% is pretty > good sos your not beating hell out of it? > > then there is the belt system which is going to cost > you around 25% . chain drive is very effient, I'm told > high 90's but don't know for sure. > > nother trick is to mount it on big oversized rubber > mounts & over insulate for retention of sanity All reasonable advice, but something also worth remembering is that you're not going to couple anything more than a couple of HP with belts (or chain drive) wthout backing up and thinking about everything around that system. E.g., the average 150A alternator requires a double belt pulley, and has an extra large shaft and much better bushings and bearings than the average alternator - those side loads can really play havoc with your setup. If you're going to try to couple the greatest part of your engine output into something, you might want to start thinking about gear drive, or direct drive plus a clutch. Belt drive is wonderful wherever you *want* some slip - e.g., you don't want your engine stalling just because your alternator froze up - but it's not all that good at actually transmitting power, as Shane notes. Whenever I design anything outside the range of the usual and the average, I try to remember that off-the-shelf parts have certain assumptions built into them (e.g., "nobody is going to use our long screwdrivers to pry things out - so we don't have to make the shaft very strong") - and I buy or design accordingly. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17466|17410|2008-05-26 16:15:44|Paul Wilson|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|>>>>>Wind generators on boats have derisory power outputs and cost a fortune. Solar cells are expensive and need a lot of scarce real estate. Not to mention the windage. >>>>>>Brent's sketches of a towed water generator strike me as a far more sensible way of generating power while underway unless you need kilowatts, and if you do, there *is* no current alternative to a gen set of some sort. Which brings one right back to fossil fuels. I can't say I agree. What do you use for the 90 percent of the time at anchor? An Aero-marine wind generator gives about the most watts for the price I have seen. You can buy them quite cheap now. I previously had a wind generator which I made from the tail rotor blades from a Bell 206 helicopter. It had feathering blades and worked great but it cast a shadow on the solar panels so reduced their efficiency. It was also pretty scary at times and could have easily took your arm or head off. Personally, I don't like the noise of wind generators so don't want one and now use only solar panels. Solar panels are expensive but coming down in price and when averaged out over the 10, 15 or even 20 year life of the panel I think they are cheap power. I have mine mounted on an archway and off the deck. The cockpit canopy (which is up all the time in the tropics anyway) is just under them so windage is pretty much the same. I don't know Brent's towable generator arrangement and how successful it is, but in my experience, I have never seen anyone happy with a towable generator for general cruising. The inbuilt systems using the boats props normally need to use large diameter props due to all the extra friction which slow you down more when you are sailing. I remember reading once you need to swing a 16 inch prop and go 5 knots before they really work. I don't think this is really practical for a 36 footer. There may be better systems out now, but they will still only work when underway and create a surprising amount of drag. Successful power generation on a boat needs to work at anchor. The bigger boats seem to always have a gen set but I don't think it is necessary. On my 36, I am adding more panels so I should have 3 large panels of about 250 watts. A bigger boat could add more. This is virtually maintenance free and I think this should make it so I rarely will have to run the engine.maybe only cloudy days or when I want to use my water-maker. I have a 12 volt fridge and use the computer a lot but have LED lights for most of my needs at night and try to avoid the SSB radio as much as possible. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17467|17410|2008-05-26 17:02:32|Paul Wilson|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Hi Dan, There was a thread a little while ago which was all about wind generators up masts. There were many points in the thread but personally, I would never do it just for the weight factor alone. Seer (where is he?) and others also had a lot of postings and links about going diesel-electric. Check it out. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ng990084 Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 4:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? If I go down the diesel/electric track I should be able to work out a regen system esp if is a DC motor. The link is one of the motors I have been considering. http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/perm132.htm As for solar/wind it is something I can think about after it is in the water :) I have wondered though that you don't see wind gens on top of masts is there a reason for this? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Wind generators on boats have derisory power outputs and cost a > fortune. Solar cells are expensive and need a lot of scarce real > estate. Not to mention the windage. > > Brent's sketches of a towed water generator strike me as a far more > sensible way of generating power while underway unless you need > kilowatts, and if you do, there *is* no current alternative to a gen > set of some sort. Which brings one right back to fossil fuels. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > > > "' I figure engine use would be mostly for power not propulsion. '' > > ''This will be 99% of its use'' > > > > the raw energy costs for wind turbines and solar power have not > increased over the last 2 years > > the raw energy costs of powering a 6hp internal combustion engine have. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: ng990084 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 4:17:15 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? > > > > Brad here, sorry forgot what faked personal info i gave yahoo so had > > to make another account :P > > > > Ok the Lister is out, I'll pencil in the Petter for now. > > > > The engine will be for generating power. I expect to run it for about > > an hour a day to charge batteries, heat water and for heavy AC loads. > > This will be 99% of its use. I figure 6hp should get me about 4kw and > > any bigger would be wasted. > > > > What I need to know is max and preferred weight > allowance/size/placement. > > > > > > Brent, it was half that weight and water cooled. > > Tug, I realize that diesel-electric will be inefficient but my > > thinking is to design for power generation and to save getting a > > second motor using electric for low power propulsion continuously or > > by drawing on battery some heavy grunt for a limited time. I figure > > engine use would be mostly for power not propulsion. > > Paul, thanks for the suggestions, I was looking at some of the Chinese > > made German designed diesels anyhow plenty of time I figure mid next > > year before I have enough cash to make a start. > > > > Brad. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > I've got a Lister FR2 in my shed. It was designed from the ground up > > > as a marine diesel, complete with F-N-R g/box. > > > > > > Cost me $100 > > > > > > Weighs 600 kg. > > > > > > 15 HP at 1500 rpm - a *real* diesel and can drive a big prop at slow > > rpm. > > > > > > I wouldn't dream of putting it in a hull like a BS36. Far too big & > > > heavy. They use engines like this in the English narrowboats and > > > around here they went into cray boats and the like. For torque output > > > it probably compares to a modern high speed 30HP or better engine. > > > > > > Not an engine for a yacht though. I definitely wouldn't put one of the > > > Lister air cooled singles in either. Lovely engines, run forever on > > > clean fuel, but there are far better alternatives. > > > > > > I picked up a used Chinese copy of a Yanmar industrial diesel with > > > 3.5:1 marine gearbox for $400. Not sure how good it is - Ebay purchase > > > and it's still in transit. I wanted the box more than the motor. With > > > it and a Yanmar industrial 20HP or similar engine running around 2000 > > > rpm I can get a prop shaft speed of less than 700 rpm, so big prop, > > > low revs, lots of torque. Now I'm looking at a Yanmar 3QM30 used, and > > > there are other options out there. That engine is about perfect for my > > > needs but I'll get by happily with less if I need to. > > > > > > My advice is to keep looking. If you can, grab a marine g/box with a > > > good reduction ratio. There are lots more options for engines than > > > gearboxes. In case you don't know, you CANNOT use an auto gearbox > > > unless you ensure that the prop thrust is handled by a thrust bearing > > > assy on the prop shaft. Auto g/boxes are not designed to take any > > > significant end thrust. > > > > > > I have my own ideas on prop shaft assys but that's a topic for some > > > other time. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "hh2299" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > > > > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > > > > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > > > > intend to live on it. > > > > > > > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac > generator > > > > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > > > > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > > > > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, > diesel > > > > electric. > > > > > > > > Here are my questions: > > > > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > > > > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > > > > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > > > > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > > > > > > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, > uses > > > > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > > > > after I am dead and buried. > > > > > > > > > > > > Videos of the Lister running: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4 &feature=related > > > > > > > > Specs on the motor > > > > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > > > > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > > > > > > > AC generator > > > > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > > > > > > > Pump for water maker > > > > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > > > > > > > Charge control for the alternator > > > > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1466 - Release Date: 5/25/2008 6:49 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17468|6188|2008-05-26 20:33:58|karstensiepmann|Re: Lattice mast/Dudley Dix Steel Tube masts|Hi, can anybody give me the link to the Steel Tube Mast article from Dudley Dix?| 17469|17410|2008-05-26 23:30:37|peter_d_wiley|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|An Aerogen 6 delivers 360W max and costs 857 UKP for the 12V model or 942 UKP for the 24V model. I call that expensive - translates to approx $AUD1700 or $AUD1900, round figures. Also the blades sweep a 1.2m dia air space and it needs to rotate round a pole. It also needs clean air or it's not going to get anywhere near its rated power output. A 150W 12V solar panel costs $AUD1500 on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/150-watt-Monocrtyalline-solar-Panel-NEW_W0QQitemZ140234178830QQihZ004QQcategoryZ78859QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem 2 of those and you've covered an area of 1.7m by 1.7m. That's a lot of surface area. You've also spent $3K. Compared with a basic fossil fuelled generating system, both of the above have derisory outputs for the price. I have a baby Yanmar 3HP diesel engine that I bought years ago and haven't got around to using for anything yet. It even has a 2:1 F-N-R marine gearbox on it. I've thought of building a custom generating system or using it to power hydraulics. Given the constraints that boats have, I too think that solar panels are the best given the hassle/money/power/space tradeoff, but let's not kid ourselves. It's expensive power, and not much of it. There's no way you're going to be doing more than powering lights, a laptop, some small tools and the like. I have 4 panels and some decent sized tractor batteries at my country place, feeding an inverter, so this isn't theory talking. Been there... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > >>>>>Wind generators on boats have derisory power outputs and cost a > fortune. Solar cells are expensive and need a lot of scarce real > estate. Not to mention the windage. > > >>>>>>Brent's sketches of a towed water generator strike me as a far more > sensible way of generating power while underway unless you need > kilowatts, and if you do, there *is* no current alternative to a gen > set of some sort. Which brings one right back to fossil fuels. > > > I can't say I agree. What do you use for the 90 percent of the time at > anchor? An Aero-marine wind generator gives about the most watts for the > price I have seen. You can buy them quite cheap now. I previously had a > wind generator which I made from the tail rotor blades from a Bell 206 > helicopter. It had feathering blades and worked great but it cast a shadow > on the solar panels so reduced their efficiency. It was also pretty scary > at times and could have easily took your arm or head off. Personally, I > don't like the noise of wind generators so don't want one and now use only > solar panels. Solar panels are expensive but coming down in price and when > averaged out over the 10, 15 or even 20 year life of the panel I think they > are cheap power. I have mine mounted on an archway and off the deck. The > cockpit canopy (which is up all the time in the tropics anyway) is just > under them so windage is pretty much the same. I don't know Brent's towable > generator arrangement and how successful it is, but in my experience, I have > never seen anyone happy with a towable generator for general cruising. The > inbuilt systems using the boats props normally need to use large diameter > props due to all the extra friction which slow you down more when you are > sailing. I remember reading once you need to swing a 16 inch prop and go 5 > knots before they really work. I don't think this is really practical for a > 36 footer. There may be better systems out now, but they will still only > work when underway and create a surprising amount of drag. > > > > Successful power generation on a boat needs to work at anchor. The bigger > boats seem to always have a gen set but I don't think it is necessary. On > my 36, I am adding more panels so I should have 3 large panels of about 250 > watts. A bigger boat could add more. This is virtually maintenance free > and I think this should make it so I rarely will have to run the > engine.maybe only cloudy days or when I want to use my water-maker. I have > a 12 volt fridge and use the computer a lot but have LED lights for most of > my needs at night and try to avoid the SSB radio as much as possible. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17470|17410|2008-05-27 02:40:40|Paul Wilson|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Sorry, I got the name wrong. It's AirX not Aeromarine or Aerogen. Maybe it was Aeromarine in an alternate life. 400 watts at $845 US. That's a lot of watts for the money in my book. I think you can get them even cheaper if you look around. I think some people have bought commercial units which are the same, I believe, but not painted. Don't quote me on that :). I would have one if they weren't so noisy. I think that's why you can find used ones for sale. http://www.emarineinc.com/products/wind_generators/airxmarine.html The solar panels are expensive, but as I said when you think about it averaged over the life of the panel, I still think they are cheap. $3000 ( I think you could get cheaper than that) over 20 years is only $150 a year. Certainly more expense than going fossil fuel and running your existing motor but I assume the idea is you don't want to do that. I think you would be hard pressed to get a diesel generator for $3000 unless it's a used one. I can fit two 150 watt panels on my arch or three 75 or 80 watt panels. My new arch is in process but I know they will fit, having checked it out. I wouldn't put them on the deck or rail. It's too easy to break them and too many shadows. Your points about using a generator and fossil fuels instead of alternate energy are valid. You are absolutely right, even with the best alternate energy system on a boat, you must be careful with your power. I think it would be easy without a fridge but I am not willing to live without one, especially in the tropics. Been there and done that. If you make the commitment to run an engine, the way you are going is probably the way to do it and then scrap the panels and wind gen like you say. Something to consider however, is I have heard lots of cruisers complain about the maintenance of their generators. I don't know if it is neglect or poor quality, but they always seem to require more maintenance than a main engine. It could be just a matter of hours and revs causing the higher maintenance. Rising fuel prices come in to factor. Personally, I want to live without having to run an engine all the time and want to go the alternate energy route. It would be interesting to see which would be cheaper over 20 years. I thought it was a huge amount of money at the time, but I have never regretted buying my solar panels. My only regret now is that I didn't have the money to buy more. If I had had the money back then, it would have saved me a lot of fuel over the years. 5 years from now it will all be academic since we will all be using fuel cells... Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter_d_wiley Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? An Aerogen 6 delivers 360W max and costs 857 UKP for the 12V model or 942 UKP for the 24V model. I call that expensive - translates to approx $AUD1700 or $AUD1900, round figures. Also the blades sweep a 1.2m dia air space and it needs to rotate round a pole. It also needs clean air or it's not going to get anywhere near its rated power output. A 150W 12V solar panel costs $AUD1500 on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/150-watt-Monocrtyalline-solar-Panel-NEW_W0QQitemZ1402 34178830QQihZ004QQcategoryZ78859QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem 2 of those and you've covered an area of 1.7m by 1.7m. That's a lot of surface area. You've also spent $3K. Compared with a basic fossil fuelled generating system, both of the above have derisory outputs for the price. I have a baby Yanmar 3HP diesel engine that I bought years ago and haven't got around to using for anything yet. It even has a 2:1 F-N-R marine gearbox on it. I've thought of building a custom generating system or using it to power hydraulics. Given the constraints that boats have, I too think that solar panels are the best given the hassle/money/power/space tradeoff, but let's not kid ourselves. It's expensive power, and not much of it. There's no way you're going to be doing more than powering lights, a laptop, some small tools and the like. I have 4 panels and some decent sized tractor batteries at my country place, feeding an inverter, so this isn't theory talking. Been there... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > >>>>>Wind generators on boats have derisory power outputs and cost a > fortune. Solar cells are expensive and need a lot of scarce real > estate. Not to mention the windage. > > >>>>>>Brent's sketches of a towed water generator strike me as a far more > sensible way of generating power while underway unless you need > kilowatts, and if you do, there *is* no current alternative to a gen > set of some sort. Which brings one right back to fossil fuels. > > > I can't say I agree. What do you use for the 90 percent of the time at > anchor? An Aero-marine wind generator gives about the most watts for the > price I have seen. You can buy them quite cheap now. I previously had a > wind generator which I made from the tail rotor blades from a Bell 206 > helicopter. It had feathering blades and worked great but it cast a shadow > on the solar panels so reduced their efficiency. It was also pretty scary > at times and could have easily took your arm or head off. Personally, I > don't like the noise of wind generators so don't want one and now use only > solar panels. Solar panels are expensive but coming down in price and when > averaged out over the 10, 15 or even 20 year life of the panel I think they > are cheap power. I have mine mounted on an archway and off the deck. The > cockpit canopy (which is up all the time in the tropics anyway) is just > under them so windage is pretty much the same. I don't know Brent's towable > generator arrangement and how successful it is, but in my experience, I have > never seen anyone happy with a towable generator for general cruising. The > inbuilt systems using the boats props normally need to use large diameter > props due to all the extra friction which slow you down more when you are > sailing. I remember reading once you need to swing a 16 inch prop and go 5 > knots before they really work. I don't think this is really practical for a > 36 footer. There may be better systems out now, but they will still only > work when underway and create a surprising amount of drag. > > > > Successful power generation on a boat needs to work at anchor. The bigger > boats seem to always have a gen set but I don't think it is necessary. On > my 36, I am adding more panels so I should have 3 large panels of about 250 > watts. A bigger boat could add more. This is virtually maintenance free > and I think this should make it so I rarely will have to run the > engine.maybe only cloudy days or when I want to use my water-maker. I have > a 12 volt fridge and use the computer a lot but have LED lights for most of > my needs at night and try to avoid the SSB radio as much as possible. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1468 - Release Date: 5/26/2008 3:23 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17471|17410|2008-05-27 08:26:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 06:40:30PM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > Sorry, I got the name wrong. It's AirX not Aeromarine or Aerogen. Maybe it > was Aeromarine in an alternate life. 400 watts at $845 US. Here it is brand-new on eBay, US$660. It also comes in 48, 24, or 12 volt flavors. http://tinyurl.com/433m5j I must say that I'm a bit jealous - mine cost me something like $750, and this design has been improved in lots of ways since I bought it. Incidentally, the rating of 400W is for 28mph. I can tell you from personal experience that in higher winds it'll put out a lot more: as Hurricane Arlene was approaching Bermuda, I watched this thing pumping out 40-45A, and finally (and reluctantly) had to shut it down with the stop switch. It's quite pleasant to see large gobs of power like that being dumped into your battery bank - sorta like seeing large deposits being made into your bank account. :) > That's a lot > of watts for the money in my book. I think you can get them even cheaper > if you look around. I think some people have bought commercial units which > are the same, I believe, but not painted. Don't quote me on that :). I think that what I've got is a commercial unit (the 403.) It's painted. > I > would have one if they weren't so noisy. I think that's why you can find > used ones for sale. > > http://www.emarineinc.com/products/wind_generators/airxmarine.html > > The solar panels are expensive, but as I said when you think about it > averaged over the life of the panel, I still think they are cheap. $3000 ( > I think you could get cheaper than that) over 20 years is only $150 a year. I just took a quick look at eBay: a new 125W panel is going for $725. For $3595, you get *6* brand-new 120W panels. For comparison, Ulysses has 3 48W panels (one badly cracked, but still producing full output). I very rarely needed any extra power - even including computer usage (and that was a full desktop plus a CRT!) - until I decided to install a refrigerator. Then, I got a wind gen, and that took care of the fridge and left a bit over. So, to do the math: Say you get a 100W panel for $500 (that's a new Kyocera 100W in the eBay lineup right now - with a 12-year warranty.) If you're in the islands - the Caribbean, or the Pacific, take your pick - you're getting about 14 hours of insolation per day; that's 1400Wh, or 96A per day pumped into your battery bank. Pretty much every day, for - say - 20 years. Let's say that for whatever reason - rainy days, you forgetting to wipe down the bird crap once every few months, The Great Foofoo Bird spreading its wings over your your boat and staying there for a month - your panels are out of action for 10% of that time (unreasonably large assumption, but I want to be really pessimistic here.) We now have: 1400 * 365 * 20 * 0.9 = 9198000, i.e. over 9 thousand kilowatt-hours for $500, or less than 5.5 cents per kW/h. This is right about what it *costs* the electric companies to produce the stuff using coal. They *charge* anywhere from double to triple that. > Rising fuel prices come in to factor. Personally, I > want to live without having to run an engine all the time and want to go the > alternate energy route. It would be interesting to see which would be > cheaper over 20 years. I thought it was a huge amount of money at the time, > but I have never regretted buying my solar panels. My only regret now is > that I didn't have the money to buy more. If I had had the money back then, > it would have saved me a lot of fuel over the years. Please see above. :) And I agree with you completely: my only regrets with regard to my solar cells have been that I didn't have space for/couldn't afford more of them. Essentially zero maintenance in return for power "magically" appearing in your batteries every day? It's a no-brainer. > 5 years from now it will all be academic since we will all be using fuel > cells... ...and charging them from solar cells. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17472|6188|2008-05-27 11:44:59|NORMAN MOORE|Re: Lattice mast/Dudley Dix Steel Tube masts|http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm karstensiepmann wrote: Hi, can anybody give me the link to the Steel Tube Mast article from Dudley Dix? Norm Moore 559-645-5314 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17473|17473|2008-05-27 19:10:38|Martin Demers|origami boat insuranceI,|H| 17474|17474|2008-05-27 19:14:14|Martin Demers|origami boat insurance|Hi, do you guys have difficulty to insure your origami boats in Canada, is there a specific procedure to follow? is there a type of insurance which is more important than another one? Martin.| 17475|17410|2008-05-29 21:58:41|peter_d_wiley|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Those prices for a wind gen do cause me to modify my objections. At that price, it's better value for money. I still don't like the space etc but that's a 2nd order objection at worst. Solar panels - I installed my first ones some 20 years ago and they still work, so I'm not unsympathetic to them. I've been waiting (impatiently) for the price to drop for literally decades. It has but really only in line with inflation, not by the sorts of orders of magnitude we've seen with computer memory chips and other semiconductors. I'm not an electronics engineer so further comment on cost of manufacture would be simply ignorant speculation. ATM I have a lot of north facing roof area on my house that would be covered in solar panels if the price was reasonable. Neighbour is totally off the grid, but he doesn't have a 3 phase heavy machine tool addiction. These days I *could* feed a 3 phase 415V from off-grid sources but only by stacking a heavy duty 48V DC->240V AC->single phase VFD->synthetic variable frequency 3 phase. Not worth it, power prices aren't that high. Boats fall into the space-limited category so high density low volume energy sources are worth paying more money for. Perhaps it's the weather down here that tends to the boisterous which makes me reluctant to have too much stuff on a weather deck adding windage. I like the idea of fuel cells myself. Once again, it's the waiting for them to get to mass production and reasonable price that's the killer. For those interested in building their own windplant, www.otherpower.com is a good starting point. What we all REALLY need is a breakthrough in electrical energy storage. The generation side we can deal with by a combination of means. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 06:40:30PM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Sorry, I got the name wrong. It's AirX not Aeromarine or Aerogen. Maybe it > > was Aeromarine in an alternate life. 400 watts at $845 US. > > Here it is brand-new on eBay, US$660. It also comes in 48, 24, or 12 > volt flavors. > > http://tinyurl.com/433m5j > > I must say that I'm a bit jealous - mine cost me something like $750, > and this design has been improved in lots of ways since I bought it. > > Incidentally, the rating of 400W is for 28mph. I can tell you from > personal experience that in higher winds it'll put out a lot more: as > Hurricane Arlene was approaching Bermuda, I watched this thing pumping > out 40-45A, and finally (and reluctantly) had to shut it down with the > stop switch. It's quite pleasant to see large gobs of power like that > being dumped into your battery bank - sorta like seeing large deposits > being made into your bank account. :) > > > That's a lot > > of watts for the money in my book. I think you can get them even cheaper > > if you look around. I think some people have bought commercial units which > > are the same, I believe, but not painted. Don't quote me on that :). > > I think that what I've got is a commercial unit (the 403.) It's painted. > > > I > > would have one if they weren't so noisy. I think that's why you can find > > used ones for sale. > > > > http://www.emarineinc.com/products/wind_generators/airxmarine.html > > > > The solar panels are expensive, but as I said when you think about it > > averaged over the life of the panel, I still think they are cheap. $3000 ( > > I think you could get cheaper than that) over 20 years is only $150 a year. > > I just took a quick look at eBay: a new 125W panel is going for $725. > For $3595, you get *6* brand-new 120W panels. > > For comparison, Ulysses has 3 48W panels (one badly cracked, but still > producing full output). I very rarely needed any extra power - even > including computer usage (and that was a full desktop plus a CRT!) - > until I decided to install a refrigerator. Then, I got a wind gen, and > that took care of the fridge and left a bit over. > > So, to do the math: > > Say you get a 100W panel for $500 (that's a new Kyocera 100W in the eBay > lineup right now - with a 12-year warranty.) If you're in the islands - > the Caribbean, or the Pacific, take your pick - you're getting about 14 > hours of insolation per day; that's 1400Wh, or 96A per day pumped into > your battery bank. Pretty much every day, for - say - 20 years. > > Let's say that for whatever reason - rainy days, you forgetting to wipe > down the bird crap once every few months, The Great Foofoo Bird > spreading its wings over your your boat and staying there for a month - > your panels are out of action for 10% of that time (unreasonably large > assumption, but I want to be really pessimistic here.) We now have: > > 1400 * 365 * 20 * 0.9 = 9198000, i.e. over 9 thousand kilowatt-hours for > $500, or less than 5.5 cents per kW/h. > > This is right about what it *costs* the electric companies to produce > the stuff using coal. They *charge* anywhere from double to triple that. > > > Rising fuel prices come in to factor. Personally, I > > want to live without having to run an engine all the time and want to go the > > alternate energy route. It would be interesting to see which would be > > cheaper over 20 years. I thought it was a huge amount of money at the time, > > but I have never regretted buying my solar panels. My only regret now is > > that I didn't have the money to buy more. If I had had the money back then, > > it would have saved me a lot of fuel over the years. > > Please see above. :) And I agree with you completely: my only regrets > with regard to my solar cells have been that I didn't have space > for/couldn't afford more of them. Essentially zero maintenance in return > for power "magically" appearing in your batteries every day? It's a > no-brainer. > > > 5 years from now it will all be academic since we will all be using fuel > > cells... > > ...and charging them from solar cells. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17476|17463|2008-05-29 22:09:45|peter_d_wiley|Lister 6/1 ok fopr a BS36|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: If you're going to try to couple the greatest > part of your engine output into something, you might want to start > thinking about gear drive, or direct drive plus a clutch. Belt drive is > wonderful wherever you *want* some slip - e.g., you don't want your > engine stalling just because your alternator froze up - but it's not all > that good at actually transmitting power, as Shane notes. True if you restrict your thinking to V belts. Not true if you expand your thinking to serpentine belts or far more pertinently toothed belts. These are widely used in industry to transmit power. However your point about thinking it through is spot on. > > Whenever I design anything outside the range of the usual and the > average, I try to remember that off-the-shelf parts have certain > assumptions built into them (e.g., "nobody is going to use our long > screwdrivers to pry things out - so we don't have to make the shaft very > strong") - and I buy or design accordingly. Heh. I saw a boat fitted with an 80HP diesel and 2:1 g/box feeding its power through a CV joint setup to a fully floating prop shaft once. The shaft had roller & thrust bearings in housings so no thrust was going to the shaft & g/box. Engine was mounted flat. The owner pointed it out to me and when I queried him as to its robustness, he said that 300HP race boats used similar setups for their drive, so it was plenty strong enough. Then I pointed out the torque and rpm. It was destined for a very short life IMO as CV joints aren't designed to take that level of torque (it was off a car). If he'd used a short tractor PTO shaft it would have been fine. Anything that an take the abuse of driving a big slasher cutting rough grass, bushes and small trees isn't going to worry about the torque needed to drive a prop. | 17477|17477|2008-05-30 03:54:37|amandafairline|New Freebie to Collect!|Here is your opportunity to get something for nothing with NO CATCH! Visit the link below. Choose a gift. They send it to you...its as easy as that! I was sent the link by a friend, I tried it and I got the freebies...excellent! http://moourl.com/grabagift Take care and have a great weekend| 17478|17410|2008-05-30 10:42:09|Carl Anderson|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Peter, I have found that there is now a mass marketed fuel cell coming from Europe. It sells in the USA by Plastimo. Look at the link: http://www.marine-fuel-cell.com/ Only problem I see is that it has to use some sort of fuel and the fuel of choice is methanol. Their pricing for the fuel is rather high and it can be obtained locally for much less but still you need a fuel source for the fuel cell. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com peter_d_wiley wrote: > > Boats fall into the space-limited category so high density low volume > energy sources are worth paying more money for. Perhaps it's the > weather down here that tends to the boisterous which makes me > reluctant to have too much stuff on a weather deck adding windage. I > like the idea of fuel cells myself. Once again, it's the waiting for > them to get to mass production and reasonable price that's the killer. > | 17479|17424|2008-05-30 18:49:40|brentswain38|Re: Marine exhaust manifold|Oxy acetylene relies on oxidation . Stainless doesn't oxidise. Better using a 1 8th inch 6011 at 225 amps, then grind the messy parts off. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > A plasma cutter is well suited to this type of cutting operation. > > I'm sure even oxy-acetylene with a steady hand would carve-out the > holes - but it's then a question of how do you get into the holes to > clean 'em up ? In a perfect world a milling machine would be > favourite of course. > > > In its pure form, the DIY way would drill a series of closely-spaced > holes > > and do the time honored thing of joining them via a small rat tail file > > followed by a junior hacksaw? > > With mild steel, certainly this would be the way to go, but I think > we're talking fairly thick stainless here. I've lost quite a few files > to stainless over the years, even though I've never quite understood > why tools should lose their cutting edges to stainless quite so > easily. Maybe it's the Chrome work-hardening that does it ? > > I was curious as to the method Brent used, as I've gained the > impression that he tends to be a 'self-sufficient' steel worker. > > Colin > | 17480|17410|2008-05-30 18:51:57|brentswain38|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Surplus Permanent magnet motors cost around $25 and generate 3 amps with a wooden prop , or 5 amps with a carbon fibre prop. At that price you can carry spares. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Wind generators on boats have derisory power outputs and cost a > fortune. Solar cells are expensive and need a lot of scarce real > estate. Not to mention the windage. > > Brent's sketches of a towed water generator strike me as a far more > sensible way of generating power while underway unless you need > kilowatts, and if you do, there *is* no current alternative to a gen > set of some sort. Which brings one right back to fossil fuels. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > > > "' I figure engine use would be mostly for power not propulsion. '' > > ''This will be 99% of its use'' > > > > the raw energy costs for wind turbines and solar power have not > increased over the last 2 years > > the raw energy costs of powering a 6hp internal combustion engine have. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: ng990084 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 4:17:15 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? > > > > Brad here, sorry forgot what faked personal info i gave yahoo so had > > to make another account :P > > > > Ok the Lister is out, I'll pencil in the Petter for now. > > > > The engine will be for generating power. I expect to run it for about > > an hour a day to charge batteries, heat water and for heavy AC loads. > > This will be 99% of its use. I figure 6hp should get me about 4kw and > > any bigger would be wasted. > > > > What I need to know is max and preferred weight > allowance/size/placement. > > > > > > Brent, it was half that weight and water cooled. > > Tug, I realize that diesel-electric will be inefficient but my > > thinking is to design for power generation and to save getting a > > second motor using electric for low power propulsion continuously or > > by drawing on battery some heavy grunt for a limited time. I figure > > engine use would be mostly for power not propulsion. > > Paul, thanks for the suggestions, I was looking at some of the Chinese > > made German designed diesels anyhow plenty of time I figure mid next > > year before I have enough cash to make a start. > > > > Brad. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > I've got a Lister FR2 in my shed. It was designed from the ground up > > > as a marine diesel, complete with F-N-R g/box. > > > > > > Cost me $100 > > > > > > Weighs 600 kg. > > > > > > 15 HP at 1500 rpm - a *real* diesel and can drive a big prop at slow > > rpm. > > > > > > I wouldn't dream of putting it in a hull like a BS36. Far too big & > > > heavy. They use engines like this in the English narrowboats and > > > around here they went into cray boats and the like. For torque output > > > it probably compares to a modern high speed 30HP or better engine. > > > > > > Not an engine for a yacht though. I definitely wouldn't put one of the > > > Lister air cooled singles in either. Lovely engines, run forever on > > > clean fuel, but there are far better alternatives. > > > > > > I picked up a used Chinese copy of a Yanmar industrial diesel with > > > 3.5:1 marine gearbox for $400. Not sure how good it is - Ebay purchase > > > and it's still in transit. I wanted the box more than the motor. With > > > it and a Yanmar industrial 20HP or similar engine running around 2000 > > > rpm I can get a prop shaft speed of less than 700 rpm, so big prop, > > > low revs, lots of torque. Now I'm looking at a Yanmar 3QM30 used, and > > > there are other options out there. That engine is about perfect for my > > > needs but I'll get by happily with less if I need to. > > > > > > My advice is to keep looking. If you can, grab a marine g/box with a > > > good reduction ratio. There are lots more options for engines than > > > gearboxes. In case you don't know, you CANNOT use an auto gearbox > > > unless you ensure that the prop thrust is handled by a thrust bearing > > > assy on the prop shaft. Auto g/boxes are not designed to take any > > > significant end thrust. > > > > > > I have my own ideas on prop shaft assys but that's a topic for some > > > other time. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hh2299" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > > > I am looking at building the BS36, well still at the dreaming stage > > > > but you have to start somewhere. I am trying to work out a way of > > > > powering propulsion and household power, if I do build this thing I > > > > intend to live on it. > > > > > > > > My idea is to install a Lister 6/1 use that to dive a 5kw ac > generator > > > > and a 70 amp 24v alternator for the house battery plus maybe a pump > > > > for the watermaker with and electric pto for the loading on/off. The > > > > generator will power an AC motor through a VSD for propulsion, > diesel > > > > electric. > > > > > > > > Here are my questions: > > > > 1) will it be to heavy? 310kg gross motor only > > > > 2) will it shake the boat apart? On one of those utube vids you can > > > > see how it rocks the pallets it is sitting on. > > > > 3) where would I put the thing is it too big? > > > > > > > > This motor is reported to be very simple, almost indestructible, > uses > > > > very little fuel, is cheap and should be still running strong long > > > > after I am dead and buried. > > > > > > > > > > > > Videos of the Lister running: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZqAzEuPE8 > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4YZLyXlL4&feature=related > > > > > > > > Specs on the motor > > > > http://www.poweranand.com/slow_speed_lister_type.htm > > > > http://www.generatorsales.com/order/lister_engines.asp > > > > > > > > AC generator > > > > http://www.historicengine.com.au/index.php?p=1_5 > > > > > > > > Pump for water maker > > > > http://www.kerrick.com.au/pumps/catpumps/stainless_steel.html > > > > > > > > Charge control for the alternator > > > > http://www.balmar.net/page15-maxchargemain.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17481|17410|2008-05-30 18:56:28|brentswain38|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|A friend put a set of pânels on a flat canopy over his cockpit, No windage , out of the way and invisible. He said they gave him all the power he needed in a couple of years in the South Pacific. Panels and wind generator is what most people use in Mexico. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > >>>>>Wind generators on boats have derisory power outputs and cost a > fortune. Solar cells are expensive and need a lot of scarce real > estate. Not to mention the windage. > > >>>>>>Brent's sketches of a towed water generator strike me as a far more > sensible way of generating power while underway unless you need > kilowatts, and if you do, there *is* no current alternative to a gen > set of some sort. Which brings one right back to fossil fuels. > > > I can't say I agree. What do you use for the 90 percent of the time at > anchor? An Aero-marine wind generator gives about the most watts for the > price I have seen. You can buy them quite cheap now. I previously had a > wind generator which I made from the tail rotor blades from a Bell 206 > helicopter. It had feathering blades and worked great but it cast a shadow > on the solar panels so reduced their efficiency. It was also pretty scary > at times and could have easily took your arm or head off. Personally, I > don't like the noise of wind generators so don't want one and now use only > solar panels. Solar panels are expensive but coming down in price and when > averaged out over the 10, 15 or even 20 year life of the panel I think they > are cheap power. I have mine mounted on an archway and off the deck. The > cockpit canopy (which is up all the time in the tropics anyway) is just > under them so windage is pretty much the same. I don't know Brent's towable > generator arrangement and how successful it is, but in my experience, I have > never seen anyone happy with a towable generator for general cruising. The > inbuilt systems using the boats props normally need to use large diameter > props due to all the extra friction which slow you down more when you are > sailing. I remember reading once you need to swing a 16 inch prop and go 5 > knots before they really work. I don't think this is really practical for a > 36 footer. There may be better systems out now, but they will still only > work when underway and create a surprising amount of drag. > > > > Successful power generation on a boat needs to work at anchor. The bigger > boats seem to always have a gen set but I don't think it is necessary. On > my 36, I am adding more panels so I should have 3 large panels of about 250 > watts. A bigger boat could add more. This is virtually maintenance free > and I think this should make it so I rarely will have to run the > engine.maybe only cloudy days or when I want to use my water-maker. I have > a 12 volt fridge and use the computer a lot but have LED lights for most of > my needs at night and try to avoid the SSB radio as much as possible. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17482|12808|2008-05-30 21:20:46|Tom Mann|scrap prices|Hello All They are paying $320 a ton here local for scrap steel. I took a small trailer load in today + a few aluminum outboard blocks and I about fell over when they paid me $440. No wonder there is so many idiots driving around looking for metal to steal. Better keep your metal locked up and guarded, boats too. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17483|12808|2008-05-31 15:20:41|theboilerflue|Re: scrap prices|Over here on vancouver island last i heard steel was just over 200 a ton, stainless (to buy from scrap dealer) is about 3.25/lbs although the independent scrap yards sell it usually 25 cents cheaper I was just in vancouver a while back and scored a nice SS 30 litre beer keg for my day tank and the yards there were selling at 1.75 or 2.00 I guess there have more competition there unlike the island. I believe that now on the island there are only two or three independantly owned yards there rest are owned by steel pacific or CanAm recycling and they charge as much as they possibly can. so far the only independant yards i've found are ABC recycling in campbell river and williams scrap iron and metal in colwood does anybody know of any other ones on the island I had heard of another down in cassidy but have never been down there. Walkers in royston was just bought out recently by steel pacific. > Hello All > They are paying $320 a ton here local for scrap steel. I took a small > trailer load in today + a few aluminum outboard blocks and I about fell over > when they paid me $440. No wonder there is so many idiots driving around > looking for metal to steal. > Better keep your metal locked up and guarded, boats too. > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17484|17484|2008-05-31 17:28:31|troller10|Cock pit size for the 40 footer|Hey all, Just wanted to know what the proper size for a cockpit should be. I had a 5 foot wide piece of left over 3/16" sheet bent 2 feet at the bottom and 1.5 feet for the sides. Brent's plans don't detail the cockpit area much, (as I think he has correctly determined that people will customize it to fit their own needs). From the pictures it looks like the top of the front end of the cockpit, (seats), should be even with the top of the rub rail. How is the back of the cockpit height determined. Do we want some slope to drain the cockpit aft? How much, (2%)? Luckily I bought all my stainless pipe for the rub rails and the stanchions last year. I think I will forgo stainless for the mooring bit. Prices are getting ridicules. All the scrap metal around my area is disappearing fast. Anyway, press on regardless. Cheers Brien| 17485|17424|2008-05-31 20:47:08|John Langelo|Re: Marine exhaust manifold|I just had my exaust flanges cut out of stainless in Chananus by some one that has a water jet cutter ( I think that's what they call it), It was expensive but very acurate, and clean. I would have spent hours trying to cut these out, and they still woulden't look as good as these. John brentswain38 wrote: Oxy acetylene relies on oxidation . Stainless doesn't oxidise. Better using a 1 8th inch 6011 at 225 amps, then grind the messy parts off. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > A plasma cutter is well suited to this type of cutting operation. > > I'm sure even oxy-acetylene with a steady hand would carve-out the > holes - but it's then a question of how do you get into the holes to > clean 'em up ? In a perfect world a milling machine would be > favourite of course. > > > In its pure form, the DIY way would drill a series of closely-spaced > holes > > and do the time honored thing of joining them via a small rat tail file > > followed by a junior hacksaw? > > With mild steel, certainly this would be the way to go, but I think > we're talking fairly thick stainless here. I've lost quite a few files > to stainless over the years, even though I've never quite understood > why tools should lose their cutting edges to stainless quite so > easily. Maybe it's the Chrome work-hardening that does it ? > > I was curious as to the method Brent used, as I've gained the > impression that he tends to be a 'self-sufficient' steel worker. > > Colin > --------------------------------- Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17486|17484|2008-06-01 11:50:52|Gordon Schnell|Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer|Brien So your doing a 40'. I'm just finishing a 40. Re: Cockpit It sounds like you are describing the "footwell", so we'll start there. The footwell should be approx. 24" wide (enough space to get past someone as you move about the cockpit) and at least 12" deep (refer to chair ergonomics to get a descent "knee to floor" sitting position). If you plan to stretch out in the cockpit, make it at least 6' long.The footwell should drain overboard, preferably aft. The "combings" will form the "seat backs" above the "sit" level and will exceed the deck level. Seat backs of 12 - 14" is practical.Here's where the aft winches will likely mount, so make the top of the combings wide enough to "seat" your large winches. The deck level should be approx.4 - 5" below the "rub rails". Mock the whole thing up before cutting any steel, just so you can get a sense of seating (and sleeping) comfort and easy of manuvering. Hope that helps. Gord troller10 wrote: > > Hey all, > > Just wanted to know what the proper size for a cockpit should be. > > I had a 5 foot wide piece of left over 3/16" sheet bent 2 feet at the > bottom and 1.5 feet for the sides. > > Brent's plans don't detail the cockpit area much, (as I think he has > correctly determined that people will customize it to fit their own > needs). > > >From the pictures it looks like the top of the front end of the > cockpit, (seats), should be even with the top of the rub rail. How is > the back of the cockpit height determined. Do we want some slope to > drain the cockpit aft? How much, (2%)? > > Luckily I bought all my stainless pipe for the rub rails and the > stanchions last year. I think I will forgo stainless for the mooring > bit. Prices are getting ridicules. > > All the scrap metal around my area is disappearing fast. > > Anyway, press on regardless. > > Cheers > > Brien > > | 17487|12808|2008-06-01 11:56:16|Gordon Schnell|Re: scrap prices|Here in Western Canada, they're only paying $175/ton, and I thought that was "bonus" as I just hauled 1800 lbs. in and got $150. Gord Tom Mann wrote: > > Hello All > They are paying $320 a ton here local for scrap steel. I took a small > trailer load in today + a few aluminum outboard blocks and I about > fell over > when they paid me $440. No wonder there is so many idiots driving around > looking for metal to steal. > Better keep your metal locked up and guarded, boats too. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 17488|17484|2008-06-01 15:27:15|mickeyolaf|Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer|Good points Gord. Brien, one of the things that was really irritating about my last boat was I couldn't stretch out in the cockpit. So add 8"s (to your walking tall height) designing your seats so u can snooze on the cockpit bench on those nights where the it is just too hot inside or u need some space. It's easy to hang a mosquito net from the boom or b/stay. It's not really wasted space as there is storage generated that can be vented overboard for propane tanks and heaters etc., and inside quarter berth length depending on your design. Also the absolute prime priority in cockpit design ( which I know goes without saying) is a rapid self draining footwell/cockpit on either tack. I've only been in one storm but it was enough to scare/convince me. My 36 has hinged flap double 4" transom tunnel drains which I hope are big enough. U still see cruising boats with these little white plastic drains with crosses in em which are useless and plug up. When u design your seat height from the sole 18" is the norm but don't forget to account for the thickness of your cushions. The height will be a compromise. While designing our cockpit I put in extra backing for winches and other areas of strong pull. Our winch shelf is 11/16ths of aluminum. Gives confidence. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Brien > So your doing a 40'. I'm just finishing a 40. > Re: Cockpit > It sounds like you are describing the "footwell", so we'll start there. > The footwell should be approx. 24" wide (enough space to get past > someone as you move about the cockpit) and at least 12" deep (refer to > chair ergonomics to get a descent "knee to floor" sitting position). If > you plan to stretch out in the cockpit, make it at least 6' long.The > footwell should drain overboard, preferably aft. The "combings" will > form the "seat backs" above the "sit" level and will exceed the deck > level. Seat backs of 12 - 14" is practical.Here's where the aft winches > will likely mount, so make the top of the combings wide enough to "seat" > your large winches. The deck level should be approx.4 - 5" below the > "rub rails". > Mock the whole thing up before cutting any steel, just so you can get a > sense of seating (and sleeping) comfort and easy of manuvering. > Hope that helps. > Gord > > > troller10 wrote: > > > > Hey all, > > > > Just wanted to know what the proper size for a cockpit should be. > > > > I had a 5 foot wide piece of left over 3/16" sheet bent 2 feet at the > > bottom and 1.5 feet for the sides. > > > > Brent's plans don't detail the cockpit area much, (as I think he has > > correctly determined that people will customize it to fit their own > > needs). > > > > >From the pictures it looks like the top of the front end of the > > cockpit, (seats), should be even with the top of the rub rail. How is > > the back of the cockpit height determined. Do we want some slope to > > drain the cockpit aft? How much, (2%)? > > > > Luckily I bought all my stainless pipe for the rub rails and the > > stanchions last year. I think I will forgo stainless for the mooring > > bit. Prices are getting ridicules. > > > > All the scrap metal around my area is disappearing fast. > > > > Anyway, press on regardless. > > > > Cheers > > > > Brien > > > > > | 17489|17484|2008-06-01 19:37:24|kingsknight4life|Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Brien > So your doing a 40'. I'm just finishing a 40. >Gord. When can we get some pics? I remember visiting you and your boat when Bev and I lived at Shelter Island on our 24 ft.fibreglass boat. I'd love to see how she's coming along. Rowland| 17490|17410|2008-06-01 20:45:36|peter_d_wiley|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Couldn't find a price for the unit itself. Methanol is expensive and corrosive. Not a fatal objection as I expected a fuel cell to burn something like methanol as you want as many hydrogen atoms as possible in a liquid form. It's easy to make industrially from natural gas too. This and similar devices are worth watching, I agree. Probably has a consumable electrode so the life & cost of those needs to be factored in. Good to see these things finally making it into commercial production for the mass market, tho. There's hope yet. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Peter, > > I have found that there is now a mass marketed fuel cell coming from Europe. > > It sells in the USA by Plastimo. Look at the link: > http://www.marine-fuel-cell.com/ > > Only problem I see is that it has to use some sort of fuel and the fuel > of choice is methanol. Their pricing for the fuel is rather high and it > can be obtained locally for much less but still you need a fuel source > for the fuel cell. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > Boats fall into the space-limited category so high density low volume > > energy sources are worth paying more money for. Perhaps it's the > > weather down here that tends to the boisterous which makes me > > reluctant to have too much stuff on a weather deck adding windage. I > > like the idea of fuel cells myself. Once again, it's the waiting for > > them to get to mass production and reasonable price that's the killer. > > > | 17491|17410|2008-06-01 21:10:34|Paul Wilson|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|I have never seen methanol for sale in the South Pacific. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter_d_wiley Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36? Couldn't find a price for the unit itself. Methanol is expensive and corrosive. Not a fatal objection as I expected a fuel cell to burn something like methanol as you want as many hydrogen atoms as possible in a liquid form. It's easy to make industrially from natural gas too. This and similar devices are worth watching, I agree. Probably has a consumable electrode so the life & cost of those needs to be factored in. Good to see these things finally making it into commercial production for the mass market, tho. There's hope yet. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Carl Anderson wrote: > > Peter, > > I have found that there is now a mass marketed fuel cell coming from Europe. > > It sells in the USA by Plastimo. Look at the link: > http://www.marine-fuel-cell.com/ > > Only problem I see is that it has to use some sort of fuel and the fuel > of choice is methanol. Their pricing for the fuel is rather high and it > can be obtained locally for much less but still you need a fuel source > for the fuel cell. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > Boats fall into the space-limited category so high density low volume > > energy sources are worth paying more money for. Perhaps it's the > > weather down here that tends to the boisterous which makes me > > reluctant to have too much stuff on a weather deck adding windage. I > > like the idea of fuel cells myself. Once again, it's the waiting for > > them to get to mass production and reasonable price that's the killer. > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1477 - Release Date: 6/1/2008 5:28 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17492|17484|2008-06-02 09:43:17|Gordon Schnell|Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer|Rowland I had built a website on Shaw Cable and loaded a series PowerPoint slide shows. I got to about "deck detailing" when I ran out of space and stopped " building PowerPoints. The project moves forward (interior furniture is planned, modeled and "approved" by the wife.} Anyone who is interested, is welcome to drop by, but I'm reluctant to spend construction time on further PowerPoint production. I do have a pretty good photo-record of the project....an essential for servicing and maintenance, once the foam insulation is in. Drop me an email if your "headed" this way. (Vancouver) Gord kingsknight4life wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , Gordon Schnell > wrote: > > > > Brien > > So your doing a 40'. I'm just finishing a 40. > >Gord. > When can we get some pics? I remember visiting you and your boat when > Bev and I lived at Shelter Island on our 24 ft.fibreglass boat. I'd > love to see how she's coming along. > Rowland > > | 17493|17410|2008-06-02 10:32:55|Carl Anderson|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Peter, Plastimo has a retailer in the states at the following: http://www.marisafe.com/store/viewItem.asp?ID=401541059&CID=40151000 The cost is over $7,000!!! for 4 amps output. Carl peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > Couldn't find a price for the unit itself. > > Methanol is expensive and corrosive. Not a fatal objection as I > expected a fuel cell to burn something like methanol as you want as > many hydrogen atoms as possible in a liquid form. It's easy to make > industrially from natural gas too. > > This and similar devices are worth watching, I agree. Probably has a > consumable electrode so the life & cost of those needs to be factored > in. Good to see these things finally making it into commercial > production for the mass market, tho. There's hope yet. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Peter, > > > > I have found that there is now a mass marketed fuel cell coming from > Europe. > > > > It sells in the USA by Plastimo. Look at the link: > > http://www.marine-fuel-cell.com/ > > > > Only problem I see is that it has to use some sort of fuel and the fuel > > of choice is methanol. Their pricing for the fuel is rather high > and it > > can be obtained locally for much less but still you need a fuel source > > for the fuel cell. > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > > > > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > Boats fall into the space-limited category so high density low volume > > > energy sources are worth paying more money for. Perhaps it's the > > > weather down here that tends to the boisterous which makes me > > > reluctant to have too much stuff on a weather deck adding windage. I > > > like the idea of fuel cells myself. Once again, it's the waiting for > > > them to get to mass production and reasonable price that's the killer. > > > > > > > | 17494|17484|2008-06-02 10:38:52|troller10|Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer|Gord, Thanks for the excellent tips. I'm 6'3", I was going to make the foot well 6'6" but after reading mickeyolaf's comment, I will make it 7 feet long. I did make it 18" deep and 24" wide. With a wood floor "grate" and cushions I think it will work out just fine. I just want to make sure that the foot well does drain out the back when she is tied up to the dock. But too much slope and it will be uncomfortable to lie down. I'm thinking 2% slope back. Any way, I know mickeyolaf was wanting to see Pictures of Gord's boat, and I would like to see them also, but I will try to get some of my pictures up soon, also. Thanks again. Brien --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Brien > So your doing a 40'. I'm just finishing a 40. > Re: Cockpit > It sounds like you are describing the "footwell", so we'll start there. > The footwell should be approx. 24" wide (enough space to get past > someone as you move about the cockpit) and at least 12" deep (refer to > chair ergonomics to get a descent "knee to floor" sitting position). If > you plan to stretch out in the cockpit, make it at least 6' long.The > footwell should drain overboard, preferably aft. The "combings" will > form the "seat backs" above the "sit" level and will exceed the deck > level. Seat backs of 12 - 14" is practical.Here's where the aft winches > will likely mount, so make the top of the combings wide enough to "seat" > your large winches. The deck level should be approx.4 - 5" below the > "rub rails". > Mock the whole thing up before cutting any steel, just so you can get a > sense of seating (and sleeping) comfort and easy of manuvering. > Hope that helps. > Gord > > > troller10 wrote: > > > > Hey all, > > > > Just wanted to know what the proper size for a cockpit should be. > > > > I had a 5 foot wide piece of left over 3/16" sheet bent 2 feet at the > > bottom and 1.5 feet for the sides. > > > > Brent's plans don't detail the cockpit area much, (as I think he has > > correctly determined that people will customize it to fit their own > > needs). > > > > >From the pictures it looks like the top of the front end of the > > cockpit, (seats), should be even with the top of the rub rail. How is > > the back of the cockpit height determined. Do we want some slope to > > drain the cockpit aft? How much, (2%)? > > > > Luckily I bought all my stainless pipe for the rub rails and the > > stanchions last year. I think I will forgo stainless for the mooring > > bit. Prices are getting ridicules. > > > > All the scrap metal around my area is disappearing fast. > > > > Anyway, press on regardless. > > > > Cheers > > > > Brien > > > > > | 17495|17484|2008-06-02 14:54:55|Paul Wilson|Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer|Hi Brien, Make sure you put a drain on the seats as well. I have a small hole through the transom so that the cockpit seat doesn't collect water when healed over. The seats can have a different slope back towards the transom than the foot well. My seats are sloping down slightly into the foot well as well as having a slope back. Sleeping in the cockpit has never been a problem...staying awake is :). Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of troller10 Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:39 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer Gord, Thanks for the excellent tips. I'm 6'3", I was going to make the foot well 6'6" but after reading mickeyolaf's comment, I will make it 7 feet long. I did make it 18" deep and 24" wide. With a wood floor "grate" and cushions I think it will work out just fine. I just want to make sure that the foot well does drain out the back when she is tied up to the dock. But too much slope and it will be uncomfortable to lie down. I'm thinking 2% slope back. Any way, I know mickeyolaf was wanting to see Pictures of Gord's boat, and I would like to see them also, but I will try to get some of my pictures up soon, also. Thanks again. Brien --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Brien > So your doing a 40'. I'm just finishing a 40. > Re: Cockpit > It sounds like you are describing the "footwell", so we'll start there. > The footwell should be approx. 24" wide (enough space to get past > someone as you move about the cockpit) and at least 12" deep (refer to > chair ergonomics to get a descent "knee to floor" sitting position). If > you plan to stretch out in the cockpit, make it at least 6' long.The > footwell should drain overboard, preferably aft. The "combings" will > form the "seat backs" above the "sit" level and will exceed the deck > level. Seat backs of 12 - 14" is practical.Here's where the aft winches > will likely mount, so make the top of the combings wide enough to "seat" > your large winches. The deck level should be approx.4 - 5" below the > "rub rails". > Mock the whole thing up before cutting any steel, just so you can get a > sense of seating (and sleeping) comfort and easy of manuvering. > Hope that helps. > Gord > > > troller10 wrote: > > > > Hey all, > > > > Just wanted to know what the proper size for a cockpit should be. > > > > I had a 5 foot wide piece of left over 3/16" sheet bent 2 feet at the > > bottom and 1.5 feet for the sides. > > > > Brent's plans don't detail the cockpit area much, (as I think he has > > correctly determined that people will customize it to fit their own > > needs). > > > > >From the pictures it looks like the top of the front end of the > > cockpit, (seats), should be even with the top of the rub rail. How is > > the back of the cockpit height determined. Do we want some slope to > > drain the cockpit aft? How much, (2%)? > > > > Luckily I bought all my stainless pipe for the rub rails and the > > stanchions last year. I think I will forgo stainless for the mooring > > bit. Prices are getting ridicules. > > > > All the scrap metal around my area is disappearing fast. > > > > Anyway, press on regardless. > > > > Cheers > > > > Brien > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1478 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 7:12 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17496|17484|2008-06-02 15:38:14|Tom Mann|Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer|On my 26 I wish I would have eliminated the lazzerett and went with a longer cockpit, would have been a tad easier to build plus would have lot bigger drain holes through transom instead of running pipes. The foot well is 40"x26"x12"deep in front and slopes 1-1/2" aft, the seats 40"x24" and level for and aft and port to starboard. No drains on seats, didn't want to add more pipes or hoses . For 2 it's confey , for 4 we will be chummy Tom On 6/2/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Brien, > > > > Make sure you put a drain on the seats as well. I have a small hole > through > the transom so that the cockpit seat doesn't collect water when healed > over. > The seats can have a different slope back towards the transom than the foot > well. My seats are sloping down slightly into the foot well as well as > having a slope back. Sleeping in the cockpit has never been a > problem...staying awake is :). > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of troller10 > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:39 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer > > > > Gord, > > Thanks for the excellent tips. > > I'm 6'3", I was going to make the foot well 6'6" but after reading > mickeyolaf's comment, I will make it 7 feet long. > > I did make it 18" deep and 24" wide. With a wood floor "grate" and > cushions I think it will work out just fine. > > I just want to make sure that the foot well does drain out the back > when she is tied up to the dock. But too much slope and it will be > uncomfortable to lie down. > > I'm thinking 2% slope back. > > Any way, I know mickeyolaf was wanting to see Pictures of Gord's boat, > and I would like to see them also, but I will try to get some of my > pictures up soon, also. > > Thanks again. > > Brien > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , Gordon Schnell wrote: > > > > Brien > > So your doing a 40'. I'm just finishing a 40. > > Re: Cockpit > > It sounds like you are describing the "footwell", so we'll start there. > > The footwell should be approx. 24" wide (enough space to get past > > someone as you move about the cockpit) and at least 12" deep (refer to > > chair ergonomics to get a descent "knee to floor" sitting position). If > > you plan to stretch out in the cockpit, make it at least 6' long.The > > footwell should drain overboard, preferably aft. The "combings" will > > form the "seat backs" above the "sit" level and will exceed the deck > > level. Seat backs of 12 - 14" is practical.Here's where the aft winches > > will likely mount, so make the top of the combings wide enough to > "seat" > > your large winches. The deck level should be approx.4 - 5" below the > > "rub rails". > > Mock the whole thing up before cutting any steel, just so you can get a > > sense of seating (and sleeping) comfort and easy of manuvering. > > Hope that helps. > > Gord > > > > > > troller10 wrote: > > > > > > Hey all, > > > > > > Just wanted to know what the proper size for a cockpit should be. > > > > > > I had a 5 foot wide piece of left over 3/16" sheet bent 2 feet at the > > > bottom and 1.5 feet for the sides. > > > > > > Brent's plans don't detail the cockpit area much, (as I think he has > > > correctly determined that people will customize it to fit their own > > > needs). > > > > > > >From the pictures it looks like the top of the front end of the > > > cockpit, (seats), should be even with the top of the rub rail. How is > > > the back of the cockpit height determined. Do we want some slope to > > > drain the cockpit aft? How much, (2%)? > > > > > > Luckily I bought all my stainless pipe for the rub rails and the > > > stanchions last year. I think I will forgo stainless for the mooring > > > bit. Prices are getting ridicules. > > > > > > All the scrap metal around my area is disappearing fast. > > > > > > Anyway, press on regardless. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Brien > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1478 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 > 7:12 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17497|12808|2008-06-02 16:11:24|Tom Mann|Re: scrap prices|Are your steel prices still about the same? Here in California it went way up like close to a dollar a pound for new. From what I understand they fired up a couple mills down south in the LA area and they are the ones paying the high price for scrap and then sell the steel at a higher price. Tom PS I hauled in 2300 lbs and got a check for $371.00 Wish I had a bunch more to haul in On 6/1/08, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Here in Western Canada, they're only paying $175/ton, and I thought that > was "bonus" as I just hauled 1800 lbs. in and got $150. > Gord > > > Tom Mann wrote: > > > > Hello All > > They are paying $320 a ton here local for scrap steel. I took a small > > trailer load in today + a few aluminum outboard blocks and I about > > fell over > > when they paid me $440. No wonder there is so many idiots driving around > > looking for metal to steal. > > Better keep your metal locked up and guarded, boats too. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17498|17484|2008-06-02 19:50:35|Paul Wilson|Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer|I have spent days and days on one tack, healed over with the occasional wave coming in the cockpit. Without the seat drain, I would have been constantly "bailing" the seat. I agree, no lazarette is much simpler to construct and eliminates some rust traps. I put a propane locker in the well next to the transom which has a little bit of storage space. It screws up the seat back there but still lets you stretch out and sleep. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Mann Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:38 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer On my 26 I wish I would have eliminated the lazzerett and went with a longer cockpit, would have been a tad easier to build plus would have lot bigger drain holes through transom instead of running pipes. The foot well is 40"x26"x12"deep in front and slopes 1-1/2" aft, the seats 40"x24" and level for and aft and port to starboard. No drains on seats, didn't want to add more pipes or hoses . For 2 it's confey , for 4 we will be chummy Tom On 6/2/08, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > Hi Brien, > > > > Make sure you put a drain on the seats as well. I have a small hole > through > the transom so that the cockpit seat doesn't collect water when healed > over. > The seats can have a different slope back towards the transom than the foot > well. My seats are sloping down slightly into the foot well as well as > having a slope back. Sleeping in the cockpit has never been a > problem...staying awake is :). > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] > On > Behalf Of troller10 > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:39 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer > > > > Gord, > > Thanks for the excellent tips. > > I'm 6'3", I was going to make the foot well 6'6" but after reading > mickeyolaf's comment, I will make it 7 feet long. > > I did make it 18" deep and 24" wide. With a wood floor "grate" and > cushions I think it will work out just fine. > > I just want to make sure that the foot well does drain out the back > when she is tied up to the dock. But too much slope and it will be > uncomfortable to lie down. > > I'm thinking 2% slope back. > > Any way, I know mickeyolaf was wanting to see Pictures of Gord's boat, > and I would like to see them also, but I will try to get some of my > pictures up soon, also. > > Thanks again. > > Brien > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , Gordon Schnell wrote: > > > > Brien > > So your doing a 40'. I'm just finishing a 40. > > Re: Cockpit > > It sounds like you are describing the "footwell", so we'll start there. > > The footwell should be approx. 24" wide (enough space to get past > > someone as you move about the cockpit) and at least 12" deep (refer to > > chair ergonomics to get a descent "knee to floor" sitting position). If > > you plan to stretch out in the cockpit, make it at least 6' long.The > > footwell should drain overboard, preferably aft. The "combings" will > > form the "seat backs" above the "sit" level and will exceed the deck > > level. Seat backs of 12 - 14" is practical.Here's where the aft winches > > will likely mount, so make the top of the combings wide enough to > "seat" > > your large winches. The deck level should be approx.4 - 5" below the > > "rub rails". > > Mock the whole thing up before cutting any steel, just so you can get a > > sense of seating (and sleeping) comfort and easy of manuvering. > > Hope that helps. > > Gord > > > > > > troller10 wrote: > > > > > > Hey all, > > > > > > Just wanted to know what the proper size for a cockpit should be. > > > > > > I had a 5 foot wide piece of left over 3/16" sheet bent 2 feet at the > > > bottom and 1.5 feet for the sides. > > > > > > Brent's plans don't detail the cockpit area much, (as I think he has > > > correctly determined that people will customize it to fit their own > > > needs). > > > > > > >From the pictures it looks like the top of the front end of the > > > cockpit, (seats), should be even with the top of the rub rail. How is > > > the back of the cockpit height determined. Do we want some slope to > > > drain the cockpit aft? How much, (2%)? > > > > > > Luckily I bought all my stainless pipe for the rub rails and the > > > stanchions last year. I think I will forgo stainless for the mooring > > > bit. Prices are getting ridicules. > > > > > > All the scrap metal around my area is disappearing fast. > > > > > > Anyway, press on regardless. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Brien > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1478 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 > 7:12 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo ! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.5/1479 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 7:02 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17499|17410|2008-06-02 23:25:24|peter_d_wiley|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|Thanks. They're dreaming. I noted that it went thru 4+ litres every 3 days of continuous running and I didn't see any mention of replacement anode/cathode costs. You're not going to find methanol in every small port so probably need to carry somewhere between 120 and 200 litres with you. 4 50W panels would average equal or better output over a 24 hour period with no consumables. BTW apropos of nothing much I went checking out the Indian diesel engine manufacturers. Lovson had an interesting small engine - http://www.slowspeedengine.com/marine_diesel_engine_technical.html Looks like a 'replacement' for the Sabb single cylinder minus the CPP. I asked them how much and the answer was $2900 USD FOB India. Interesting but moreso if they made the 22HP twin cylinder version. My main aim was to see what was available in low HP water cooled diesels. The interesting thing is, India is making good copies of the old Lister & Petter types whereas China seems to be targeting the Yanmar type stationary engines. I've got a Chinese 'marine' diesel with 3.5:1 box due to arrive tomorrow - bought it used off of Ebay. Looked superficially like a Yanmar, we'll see. I mainly wanted the 3.5:1 box. FWIW I priced locally a Yanmar 22HP industrial stationary water-cooled diesel and they told me $6500. Told them to forget it, I can buy a marinised diesel WITH gearbox for that price. I was playing on a 40' Spray on the w/end. It had a Gardner 4LW diesel in it. Lovely engine but you needed something like a Spray (aka barge) to carry the weight, and the Spray needed an engine capable of swinging a 24" 3 blade prop at 400-500 rpm for day after day... Why look at engines like these? I don't really like engines running at 3000+ rpm, too 'busy' and they don't have decent reduction boxes on them to get the shaft rpm down under 1000 where you can swing a big 2 blade prop with a lot of pitch. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Peter, > > Plastimo has a retailer in the states at the following: > http://www.marisafe.com/store/viewItem.asp?ID=401541059&CID=40151000 > The cost is over $7,000!!! for 4 amps output. > > Carl > > > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > Couldn't find a price for the unit itself. > > > > Methanol is expensive and corrosive. Not a fatal objection as I > > expected a fuel cell to burn something like methanol as you want as > > many hydrogen atoms as possible in a liquid form. It's easy to make > > industrially from natural gas too. > > > > This and similar devices are worth watching, I agree. Probably has a > > consumable electrode so the life & cost of those needs to be factored > > in. Good to see these things finally making it into commercial > > production for the mass market, tho. There's hope yet. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Peter, > > > > > > I have found that there is now a mass marketed fuel cell coming from > > Europe. > > > > > > It sells in the USA by Plastimo. Look at the link: > > > http://www.marine-fuel-cell.com/ > > > > > > Only problem I see is that it has to use some sort of fuel and the fuel > > > of choice is methanol. Their pricing for the fuel is rather high > > and it > > > can be obtained locally for much less but still you need a fuel source > > > for the fuel cell. > > > > > > Carl > > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > > > > > > > > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Boats fall into the space-limited category so high density low volume > > > > energy sources are worth paying more money for. Perhaps it's the > > > > weather down here that tends to the boisterous which makes me > > > > reluctant to have too much stuff on a weather deck adding windage. I > > > > like the idea of fuel cells myself. Once again, it's the waiting for > > > > them to get to mass production and reasonable price that's the killer. > > > > > > > > > > > > | 17500|17500|2008-06-03 02:21:25|Shane Duncan|Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyetrs3MQ0&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnACybMhPs4&feature=related sailing without a mast could this be the future of sailing ships? its pretty windy 300m up plus reduces your capsize risk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17501|17500|2008-06-03 06:37:17|bendeac2000|Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing|It might be the future of sailing but not this model- I kite surf, weigh 75kg and use a biggest kite of 20 square metres. The kite ship uses a kite of (i'm told) 100 square metres. 5 times as big. And the ship weighs? The problem with kites is any machine that can be sufficiently powered by a kite can be lifted by that kite. OK on a surfboard but problematic with a freighter. There's a lot of very interesting research going on building sheet-ability into the kites without affecting control-ability. Then the massive vertical power spikes kites can currently generate might be moderated. Until then the Beluga is a perfect example of industry's current approach to sustainable energy- a kite up the front where reporters can see it and a diesel thumping away up the back. ben deacon www.kitesled.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyetrs3MQ0&feature=related > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnACybMhPs4&feature=related > > sailing without a mast > could this be the future of sailing ships? > its pretty windy 300m up plus reduces your capsize risk > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17502|17500|2008-06-03 07:27:36|Shane Duncan|Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing|still using the kite the diesel cost for the Beluga is reduced by 20% sure it's not 100% green, but its is bettter than nothing its a good start plus wind is going to be around for a long time unlike diesel ----- Original Message ---- From: bendeac2000 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 7:37:15 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing It might be the future of sailing but not this model- I kite surf, weigh 75kg and use a biggest kite of 20 square metres. The kite ship uses a kite of (i'm told) 100 square metres. 5 times as big. And the ship weighs? The problem with kites is any machine that can be sufficiently powered by a kite can be lifted by that kite. OK on a surfboard but problematic with a freighter. There's a lot of very interesting research going on building sheet-ability into the kites without affecting control-ability. Then the massive vertical power spikes kites can currently generate might be moderated. Until then the Beluga is a perfect example of industry's current approach to sustainable energy- a kite up the front where reporters can see it and a diesel thumping away up the back. ben deacon www.kitesled.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyetrs3MQ0&feature=related > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnACybMhPs4&feature=related > > sailing without a mast > could this be the future of sailing ships? > its pretty windy 300m up plus reduces your capsize risk > > >      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17503|17500|2008-06-03 07:35:29|Shane Duncan|Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing|sorry guys i just couldn't resists this one      EcoGeeks get all the girls http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/539/ecogeeks-get-all-the-girls.html  Just in case you needed another reason to care about the environment: It turns out girls dig guys who dig environmental technology. according to a study conducted by GM as part of this year's Challenge X competition: Nearly 9 in 10 women (88 percent) say they'd rather chat up someone who owns the latest fuel-efficient car versus the latest sports car. ----- Original Message ---- From: bendeac2000 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 7:37:15 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing It might be the future of sailing but not this model- I kite surf, weigh 75kg and use a biggest kite of 20 square metres. The kite ship uses a kite of (i'm told) 100 square metres. 5 times as big. And the ship weighs? The problem with kites is any machine that can be sufficiently powered by a kite can be lifted by that kite. OK on a surfboard but problematic with a freighter. There's a lot of very interesting research going on building sheet-ability into the kites without affecting control-ability. Then the massive vertical power spikes kites can currently generate might be moderated. Until then the Beluga is a perfect example of industry's current approach to sustainable energy- a kite up the front where reporters can see it and a diesel thumping away up the back. ben deacon www.kitesled.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyetrs3MQ0&feature=related > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnACybMhPs4&feature=related > > sailing without a mast > could this be the future of sailing ships? > its pretty windy 300m up plus reduces your capsize risk > > >      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17504|17410|2008-06-03 12:12:38|Carl Anderson|Re: lister 6/1 ok for a BS36?|I am glad that my engine/gearbox combo puts normal cruising speed of 6.5 knots at around 1800 RPM with the prop turning half that. That also has the engine running at about 65% of rated top RPM. I'm turning a 18" X 13" two bladed prop. Carl > > Why look at engines like these? I don't really like engines running at > 3000+ rpm, too 'busy' and they don't have decent reduction boxes on > them to get the shaft rpm down under 1000 where you can swing a big 2 > blade prop with a lot of pitch. > > PDW > | 17505|17505|2008-06-04 04:36:43|karen.hall35|250 Free Books for Members|Dear Members I was sent this fantastic 100% free link by a friend, so I thought I would share it with the group...enjoy! Collect over 250 free books by visiting the link below. They are all INSTANTLY downloadable and there are No Catches! There are so many titles to choose from including fiction, crafts, health & fitness, business and so many more! http://moourl.com/250freebooks When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass it forward, like I did! Take care and have a great week| 17506|17506|2008-06-04 09:45:09|Tom Mann|Steel mast "thoughts"|Hello All I am still debating how I want to do a steel mast, was thinking of braking up shorter pieces and welding it together, doable but a lot of time and labor to save 40 to 50 lbs. What I'm thinking now is copy Brents plan for wood mast mast but use 3"x4"x.120" wall square tube, about 170 lbs bare stick. The top could be tapered the same as the wood one easily enough. But weld the square tube at the spreaders, then use 1-1/4" pipe for spreaders run through tubing with diamond shaped doubler plates at spreaders. I think it would be simple to build, lighter than comparble sized pipe and the cost around $200 for materials with today's prices. With the mast sealed it would have about 140 lbs buoyancy so the boat shouldn't stay turtled and hopefully I never test this theory, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17507|17506|2008-06-04 11:31:07|Pradyumn kapoor|Re: Steel mast "thoughts"|I want to tell that the price of petrol and all the things are grown up ,so please collect the petrol and all the things today.   from-pradyumn --- On Wed, 4/6/08, Tom Mann wrote: From: Tom Mann Subject: [origamiboats] Steel mast "thoughts" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 4 June, 2008, 7:15 PM Hello All I am still debating how I want to do a steel mast, was thinking of braking up shorter pieces and welding it together, doable but a lot of time and labor to save 40 to 50 lbs. What I'm thinking now is copy Brents plan for wood mast mast but use 3"x4"x.120" wall square tube, about 170 lbs bare stick. The top could be tapered the same as the wood one easily enough. But weld the square tube at the spreaders, then use 1-1/4" pipe for spreaders run through tubing with diamond shaped doubler plates at spreaders. I think it would be simple to build, lighter than comparble sized pipe and the cost around $200 for materials with today's prices. With the mast sealed it would have about 140 lbs buoyancy so the boat shouldn't stay turtled and hopefully I never test this theory, Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Best Jokes, Best Friends, Best Food and more. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/bestofyahoo/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17508|17505|2008-06-04 11:37:55|Pradyumn kapoor|Re: 250 Free Books for Members|I want to tell you that the price of petrol and all the things are grown,so collect petrol and all the things today. --- On Wed, 4/6/08, karen.hall35 wrote: From: karen.hall35 Subject: [origamiboats] 250 Free Books for Members To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 4 June, 2008, 2:06 PM Dear Members I was sent this fantastic 100% free link by a friend, so I thought I would share it with the group...enjoy! Collect over 250 free books by visiting the link below. They are all INSTANTLY downloadable and there are No Catches! There are so many titles to choose from including fiction, crafts, health & fitness, business and so many more! http://moourl. com/250freebooks When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass it forward, like I did! Take care and have a great week Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17509|17500|2008-06-04 19:42:10|Tom Mann|Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing|Ya but I bet the other 12% would make for a better time, still liking "Hot Rods" and the dirtier things! Ok back to boats On 6/3/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > sorry guys > i just couldn't resists this one > > > EcoGeeks get all the girls > http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/539/ecogeeks-get-all-the-girls.html > > Just in case you needed another reason to care about the environment: It > turns out girls dig guys who dig environmental technology. > according to a study conducted by GM as part of this year's Challenge X > competition: > Nearly 9 in 10 women (88 percent) say they'd rather chat up someone who > owns the latest fuel-efficient car versus the latest sports car. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: bendeac2000 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 7:37:15 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing > > It might be the future of sailing but not this model- I kite surf, weigh > 75kg and use a > biggest kite of 20 square metres. The kite ship uses a kite of (i'm told) > 100 square > metres. 5 times as big. And the ship weighs? > > The problem with kites is any machine that can be sufficiently powered by a > kite can be > lifted by that kite. OK on a surfboard but problematic with a freighter. > > There's a lot of very interesting research going on building sheet-ability > into the kites > without affecting control-ability. Then the massive vertical power spikes > kites can > currently generate might be moderated. > > Until then the Beluga is a perfect example of industry's current approach > to sustainable > energy- a kite up the front where reporters can see it and a diesel > thumping away up the > back. > > ben deacon > www.kitesled.com > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyetrs3MQ0&feature=related > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnACybMhPs4&feature=related > > > > sailing without a mast > > could this be the future of sailing ships? > > its pretty windy 300m up plus reduces your capsize risk > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17510|17484|2008-06-04 21:23:26|brentswain38|Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer|26 inches wide 11 deep and long enough to sleep in comfortably.3/16th is a bit heavy, 1/8th is adequate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > Hey all, > > Just wanted to know what the proper size for a cockpit should be. > > I had a 5 foot wide piece of left over 3/16" sheet bent 2 feet at the > bottom and 1.5 feet for the sides. > > Brent's plans don't detail the cockpit area much, (as I think he has > correctly determined that people will customize it to fit their own > needs). > > From the pictures it looks like the top of the front end of the > cockpit, (seats), should be even with the top of the rub rail. How is > the back of the cockpit height determined. Do we want some slope to > drain the cockpit aft? How much, (2%)? > > Luckily I bought all my stainless pipe for the rub rails and the > stanchions last year. I think I will forgo stainless for the mooring > bit. Prices are getting ridicules. > > All the scrap metal around my area is disappearing fast. > > Anyway, press on regardless. > > Cheers > > Brien > | 17511|17511|2008-06-04 21:41:18|James Pronk|Caulking|I think it was Brent that said he had used a caulking material from Home Hardware with good luck. Does anyone remember what it was or what it was called? Thank you, James Pronk.| 17512|17484|2008-06-05 00:44:52|Gordon Schnell|Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer|Brien Back to your original request. I checked the "website" I had partially built on Shaw.ca site. What I had built is actually still available. Here's the url, if you are interested. Maybe I'll finish it ...one day. _http://www.members.shaw.ca/graceyachts/_ Gord troller10 wrote: > > Hey all, > > Just wanted to know what the proper size for a cockpit should be. > > I had a 5 foot wide piece of left over 3/16" sheet bent 2 feet at the > bottom and 1.5 feet for the sides. > > Brent's plans don't detail the cockpit area much, (as I think he has > correctly determined that people will customize it to fit their own > needs). > > >From the pictures it looks like the top of the front end of the > cockpit, (seats), should be even with the top of the rub rail. How is > the back of the cockpit height determined. Do we want some slope to > drain the cockpit aft? How much, (2%)? > > Luckily I bought all my stainless pipe for the rub rails and the > stanchions last year. I think I will forgo stainless for the mooring > bit. Prices are getting ridicules. > > All the scrap metal around my area is disappearing fast. > > Anyway, press on regardless. > > Cheers > > Brien > > | 17513|17484|2008-06-05 09:42:40|Gordon Schnell|Re: Cock pit size for the 40 footer|Brien That link doesn't work. I checked it after I posted and it claims the site is closed. Try this. It does work. http://www.members.shaw.ca/graceyachts/ Gord Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Brien > Back to your original request. I checked the "website" I had partially > built on Shaw.ca site. What I had built is actually still available. > Here's the url, if you are interested. > Maybe I'll finish it ...one day. > _http://www.members.shaw.ca/graceyachts/_ > > > > Gord > > troller10 wrote: > > > > Hey all, > > > > Just wanted to know what the proper size for a cockpit should be. > > > > I had a 5 foot wide piece of left over 3/16" sheet bent 2 feet at the > > bottom and 1.5 feet for the sides. > > > > Brent's plans don't detail the cockpit area much, (as I think he has > > correctly determined that people will customize it to fit their own > > needs). > > > > >From the pictures it looks like the top of the front end of the > > cockpit, (seats), should be even with the top of the rub rail. How is > > the back of the cockpit height determined. Do we want some slope to > > drain the cockpit aft? How much, (2%)? > > > > Luckily I bought all my stainless pipe for the rub rails and the > > stanchions last year. I think I will forgo stainless for the mooring > > bit. Prices are getting ridicules. > > > > All the scrap metal around my area is disappearing fast. > > > > Anyway, press on regardless. > > > > Cheers > > > > Brien > > > > > > | 17514|17514|2008-06-05 14:59:19|Martin Demers|steel mast size|Brent, in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for the mast, at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. steel tube at 65 cents a pound also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at another place some 4 1/2 in. o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 1/2in steel tube,would 4 1/2 in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? Thanks, Martin.| 17515|17511|2008-06-05 15:17:10|kingsknight4life|Re: Caulking|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I think it was Brent that said he had used a caulking material from > Home Hardware with good luck. Does anyone remember what it was or what > it was called? > Thank you, James Pronk. > James It's called bulldog grip. I bought mine at Cdn tire. Rowland| 17516|17514|2008-06-05 18:08:42|Tom Mann|Re: steel mast size|Martin I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight difference between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall Tom On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers wrote: > Brent, > in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for the mast, > > at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. steel tube at > 65 cents a pound > also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at another > place some 4 1/2 in. > o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > > here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 1/2in > steel tube,would 4 1/2 > in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > > Thanks, Martin. > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17517|17514|2008-06-05 20:39:15|martin demers|Re: steel mast size|Tom, thanks for the answer about the weight, but regarding the size for a 40ft long mast is there a specific diameter to respect Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: tazmannm@... > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:08:39 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > > > Martin > I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight difference > between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall > Tom > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> > wrote: > >> Brent, >> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for the mast, >> >> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. steel tube at >> 65 cents a pound >> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at another >> place some 4 1/2 in. >> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. >> >> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 1/2in >> steel tube,would 4 1/2 >> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? >> >> Thanks, Martin. >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17518|17511|2008-06-05 22:47:26|theboilerflue|Re: Caulking|Dave from moon raven said he used "locktite superflex" silicone adhesive for his windows and hasn't had to replace them in twenty years --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I think it was Brent that said he had used a caulking material from > Home Hardware with good luck. Does anyone remember what it was or what > it was called? > Thank you, James Pronk. > | 17519|17511|2008-06-06 03:18:17|Paul Wilson|Re: Caulking|I think this question of what kind of caulking to use is like asking how long is a piece of string. What do you want to use it on? Polyurethanes stick like s*** to a blanket and are good for underwater use but not very good in the sun. Silicones seem to be good for glass or plastic if good quality. I like soft, gooey, non-hardening mastics for bedding things that may one day be removed. It all depends on the application. The only thing for sure is that is that if it says Marine on it that it will be expensive. Cheers Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of theboilerflue Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:47 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Caulking Dave from moon raven said he used "locktite superflex" silicone adhesive for his windows and hasn't had to replace them in twenty years --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "James Pronk" wrote: > > I think it was Brent that said he had used a caulking material from > Home Hardware with good luck. Does anyone remember what it was or what > it was called? > Thank you, James Pronk. > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1486 - Release Date: 6/5/2008 6:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17520|17520|2008-06-06 08:41:52|amandafairline|Excellent Mix of Free-Stuff !|Dear Members I was sent this fantastic 100% free link by a friend, so I thought I would share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page with tons of different freebies you can collect straight away! http://moourl.com/freebiemix1 (keep your eyes open for new freebimix links, they are all different!) When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great weekend| 17521|17511|2008-06-06 21:06:23|James Pronk|Re: Caulking|Thanks Paul I am looking for some polyurethane to bed a seacock that I am installing in my catalina 27. I will see what the local hardware store has and I will go from there.  Thank you all, James Pronk.  --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Caulking To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, June 6, 2008, 3:18 AM I think this question of what kind of caulking to use is like asking how long is a piece of string. What do you want to use it on? Polyurethanes stick like s*** to a blanket and are good for underwater use but not very good in the sun. Silicones seem to be good for glass or plastic if good quality. I like soft, gooey, non-hardening mastics for bedding things that may one day be removed. It all depends on the application. The only thing for sure is that is that if it says Marine on it that it will be expensive. Cheers Paul From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of theboilerflue Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:47 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Caulking Dave from moon raven said he used "locktite superflex" silicone adhesive for his windows and hasn't had to replace them in twenty years --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com , "James Pronk" wrote: > > I think it was Brent that said he had used a caulking material from > Home Hardware with good luck. Does anyone remember what it was or what > it was called? > Thank you, James Pronk. > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1486 - Release Date: 6/5/2008 6:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________________ Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17522|17514|2008-06-07 11:23:20|Carl Anderson|Re: steel mast size|Martin, The factor that you are looking for is the moment of inertia for the cross section. I found that for steel pipe & tube on the internet but do not have the url saved. I remember that for what I am using (6 inch sch 40 aluminum pipe) it is 28 in4. You should look up what it is for the 5.5 inch tube and go from there. Lower moment ratings mean that you will have to use a different rigging plan. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Martin Demers wrote: > > Brent, > in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for the mast, > > at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. steel tube > at 65 cents a pound > also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at another > place some 4 1/2 in. > o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > > here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 1/2in > steel tube,would 4 1/2 > in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > > Thanks, Martin. > > | 17523|17514|2008-06-07 12:09:55|Aaron Williams|Re: steel mast size|Carl I found this one http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pipe-formulas-d_1335.html How do you determine whats the correct size pipe and rigging from that. Aaron --- On Sat, 6/7/08, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008, 7:23 AM Martin, The factor that you are looking for is the moment of inertia for the cross section. I found that for steel pipe & tube on the internet but do not have the url saved. I remember that for what I am using (6 inch sch 40 aluminum pipe) it is 28 in4. You should look up what it is for the 5.5 inch tube and go from there. Lower moment ratings mean that you will have to use a different rigging plan. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab. com Martin Demers wrote: > > Brent, > in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for the mast, > > at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. steel tube > at 65 cents a pound > also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at another > place some 4 1/2 in. > o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > > here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 1/2in > steel tube,would 4 1/2 > in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > > Thanks, Martin. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17524|17514|2008-06-07 13:46:30|Tom Mann|Re: steel mast size|Martin, do you have a set of plans for what your building and trying to convert or starting from scratch? I wish I had the enginering skills to awnser your question, I have to rely on charts and things from others. There is a PDF in the files section on building your own mast with conversions from wood to aluminum pipe but its not much help converting to steel. I played with it about a year ago and did the conversion from the wood mast on the 26 and came up with 3" sch40 6061 aluminum pipe, but I still havnt found a way to simply figure what size steel pipe or tube is equivelent to the aluminum. You could probably get by with the 4-1/2" but as Carl said you might have to change the rigging like adding diamond spreader setup extra jumper struts ect. What amazes me is some of the production boats Hunter and a lot of others use such a small mast section and seem to get by, But then most of them when the winds hit 20 knots you switch to survival mode. Tom On 6/5/08, martin demers wrote: > > > Tom, > thanks for the answer about the weight, but regarding the size for a 40ft > long mast is there a specific diameter to respect > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: tazmannm@... > > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:08:39 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > > > > > > Martin > > I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight > difference > > between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall > > Tom > > > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> > > wrote: > > > >> Brent, > >> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for the mast, > >> > >> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. steel tube > at > >> 65 cents a pound > >> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at another > >> place some 4 1/2 in. > >> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > >> > >> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 1/2in > >> steel tube,would 4 1/2 > >> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > >> > >> Thanks, Martin. > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17525|17514|2008-06-07 19:02:02|brentswain38|Re: steel mast size|4 1/2 inch is to small. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Martin, > > The factor that you are looking for is the moment of inertia for the > cross section. > I found that for steel pipe & tube on the internet but do not have the > url saved. > I remember that for what I am using (6 inch sch 40 aluminum pipe) it is > 28 in4. > You should look up what it is for the 5.5 inch tube and go from there. > Lower moment ratings mean that you will have to use a different rigging > plan. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > Martin Demers wrote: > > > > Brent, > > in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for the mast, > > > > at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. steel tube > > at 65 cents a pound > > also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at another > > place some 4 1/2 in. > > o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > > > > here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 1/2in > > steel tube,would 4 1/2 > > in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > | 17526|17511|2008-06-07 19:03:08|brentswain38|Re: Caulking|it is the $6.99 a tube polyurethane made by bulldog grip --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I think it was Brent that said he had used a caulking material from > Home Hardware with good luck. Does anyone remember what it was or what > it was called? > Thank you, James Pronk. > | 17527|17527|2008-06-07 19:11:12|brentswain38|Safety Glasses|I found some great safety glasses at Fleck Bros with a reading lens , any power you want for $14. Where do you get bifocals for that price. I also found Midland tools has reading glasses with nylon frames that you can tie knots in without breaking them. Carl has kept a pair in his back pocket for many years without breaking them. $2 per pair. Brent| 17528|17514|2008-06-07 19:23:00|martin demers|Re: steel mast size|Hi Brent, so should I buy the 6in.o.d. x 1/8in.?Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: brentswain38@...: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:01:59 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size 4 1/2 inch is to small.Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote:>> Martin,> > The factor that you are looking for is the moment of inertia for the > cross section.> I found that for steel pipe & tube on the internet but do not have the > url saved.> I remember that for what I am using (6 inch sch 40 aluminum pipe) it is > 28 in4.> You should look up what it is for the 5.5 inch tube and go from there.> Lower moment ratings mean that you will have to use a different rigging > plan.> > Carl> MoonflowerOfMoab.com> > > > Martin Demers wrote:> >> > Brent,> > in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for themast,> >> > at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. steeltube > > at 65 cents a pound> > also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and atanother > > place some 4 1/2 in.> > o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot.> >> > here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 51/2in > > steel tube,would 4 1/2> > in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big?> >> > Thanks, Martin.> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17529|17514|2008-06-07 19:47:58|steve allen|bonding over time|I have a mast that has bonded itself into the base plate, since it has sat there for 30 years[probably] with not so much as a twist. has anyone got any cunning idea of how to break that aluminium /aluminium bond __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html| 17530|17514|2008-06-08 03:45:47|Aaron Williams|Re: bonding over time|Steve Slack up the rigging and get a dead blow hammer start smacking the base while shaking the mast. Aaron --- On Sat, 6/7/08, steve allen wrote: From: steve allen Subject: [origamiboats] bonding over time To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008, 3:47 PM I have a mast that has bonded itself into the base plate, since it has sat there for 30 years[probably] with not so much as a twist. has anyone got any cunning idea of how to break that aluminium /aluminium bond ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ nowyoucan. html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17531|17514|2008-06-08 06:24:12|steve allen|Re: bonding over time|Aaron that would be nice, if only the mast was still in there, the guy I just bought it off cut it off 2" from the bottom, so the base of the mast is sat in the base cup, with the walls of the mast remnant sitting an proud. A mechanic mate has offered up 'soaking it in coke', which ii will try today, hopefully it will pop out, at least thats what I dreamnt last night cheers steve --- Aaron Williams wrote: > Steve > Slack up the rigging and get a dead blow hammer > start smacking the base while shaking the mast. > Aaron > > > --- On Sat, 6/7/08, steve allen > wrote: > > From: steve allen > Subject: [origamiboats] bonding over time > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008, 3:47 PM > > > > > > > I have a mast that has bonded itself into the base > plate, since it has sat there for 30 years[probably] > with not so much as a twist. has anyone got any > cunning idea of how to break that aluminium > /aluminium > bond > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ > _________ _ > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ > nowyoucan. html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html| 17532|17514|2008-06-08 09:12:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: bonding over time|On Sun, Jun 08, 2008 at 11:24:08AM +0100, steve allen wrote: > Aaron > > that would be nice, if only the mast was still in > there, the guy I just bought it off cut it off 2" from > the bottom, so the base of the mast is sat in the base > cup, with the walls of the mast remnant sitting an > proud. A mechanic mate has offered up 'soaking it in > coke', which ii will try today, hopefully it will pop > out, at least thats what I dreamnt last night If that doesn't pan out - as I suspect it won't, since your mast base has probably been cold-welded in place by pressure and time - you might consider using a gas torch with a wash tip to blow it out. If _that_ doesn't work, then saw off the part that sticks out and use a router to clean out whatever remains. Even a good-quality Dremel tool would do it, but it would be quite a pain. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17533|17514|2008-06-08 12:37:26|Aaron Williams|Re: bonding over time|Steve Can you get at what is left with a cut off blade on a dremal tool?  --- On Sun, 6/8/08, steve allen wrote: From: steve allen Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bonding over time To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 8, 2008, 2:24 AM Aaron that would be nice, if only the mast was still in there, the guy I just bought it off cut it off 2" from the bottom, so the base of the mast is sat in the base cup, with the walls of the mast remnant sitting an proud. A mechanic mate has offered up 'soaking it in coke', which ii will try today, hopefully it will pop out, at least thats what I dreamnt last night cheers steve --- Aaron Williams wrote: > Steve > Slack up the rigging and get a dead blow hammer > start smacking the base while shaking the mast. > Aaron > > > --- On Sat, 6/7/08, steve allen > <stevepallen@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote: > > From: steve allen <stevepallen@ yahoo.co. uk> > Subject: [origamiboats] bonding over time > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008, 3:47 PM > > > > > > > I have a mast that has bonded itself into the base > plate, since it has sat there for 30 years[probably] > with not so much as a twist. has anyone got any > cunning idea of how to break that aluminium > /aluminium > bond > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ > _________ _ > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ > nowyoucan. html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ nowyoucan. html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17534|17534|2008-06-08 14:26:04|Salvador|Newly Opened Shop for Cutting Steel with Plasma CNC and Marker in Me|I have opened a shop in Queretaro, Mexico to cut steel plates with CNC and plasma. The max plate size is 8' by 20', and the max thickness is 3/4". I also have an accessory that allows me to write text or numbers to the parts. The shop is open to new jobs and also very flexible on pricing since currently the machine is ready to be used. You can write to info@... or to cristina.hernandez@... to share with us your needs and/or request quotations. Through NAFTA, we can easily ship to Canada and the USA. But if you want the pieces be sent somewhere else, we will certainly look into shipping to other countries.| 17535|17514|2008-06-08 16:03:19|sae140|Re: bonding over time|I still can't figure out from these posts whether the mast base is still fixed to the deck or not. If it's not, then one answer to a corroded ally fitting is lots of heat from a blow lamp. If one heat session doesn't do it - chuck the fitting in the freezer overnight, then repeat the heat treatment again. Have had to do this a few times when dismantling Seagull engines. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, steve allen wrote: > > Aaron > > that would be nice, if only the mast was still in > there, the guy I just bought it off cut it off 2" from > the bottom, so the base of the mast is sat in the base > cup, with the walls of the mast remnant sitting an > proud. A mechanic mate has offered up 'soaking it in > coke', which ii will try today, hopefully it will pop > out, at least thats what I dreamnt last night > > cheers > > steve > > --- Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Steve > > Slack up the rigging and get a dead blow hammer > > start smacking the base while shaking the mast. > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Sat, 6/7/08, steve allen > > stevepallen@... wrote: > > > > From: steve allen stevepallen@... > > Subject: [origamiboats] bonding over time > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008, 3:47 PM > > > > > > I have a mast that has bonded itself into the base > > plate, since it has sat there for 30 years[probably] > > with not so much as a twist. has anyone got any > > cunning idea of how to break that aluminium > > /aluminium > > bond > > > | 17536|17514|2008-06-08 21:09:19|Gary H. Lucas|Re: steel mast size|Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Mann" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > Martin > I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight > difference > between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall > Tom > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers > wrote: > >> Brent, >> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for the mast, >> >> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. steel tube at >> 65 cents a pound >> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at another >> place some 4 1/2 in. >> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. >> >> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 1/2in >> steel tube,would 4 1/2 >> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? >> >> Thanks, Martin. >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 17537|17514|2008-06-08 22:33:59|martin demers|Re: steel mast size|will the difference make a big difference? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gary.lucas@... > Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > > > Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Mann"> > To:> > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > >> Martin >> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight >> difference >> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall >> Tom >> >> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> >> wrote: >> >>> Brent, >>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for the mast, >>> >>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. steel tube at >>> 65 cents a pound >>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at another >>> place some 4 1/2 in. >>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. >>> >>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 1/2in >>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 >>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? >>> >>> Thanks, Martin. >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17539|17514|2008-06-09 07:17:13|will jones|Re: bonding over time|Coke will not work very well with aluminum.  Sodium hydroxide, aka lye and available as drano will dissolve the aluminum oxide that is bonding your parts together.   What is your objective, other than separating the #(@(0!@&3 g)*#@9 parts?  Do you want to keep one or the other or both in as good as shape as possible or is one sacraficial?   The lye will attack the aluminum and the aluminum oxide weakening both structures.  The hot and cold approaches are your best bet for separating with minimal damage.  Do you have a way to drop some dry ice into the bottom of the mast?  Can you pull the mast and deck plate?  If you can, I'd try some dry ice inside the mast, then heat the deck plate with a propane torch, (Al melts at 1220 degrees C, so don't use an oxy-acetylene torch) and wack on it with a small hammer.  May have to do this several times. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Sun, 6/8/08, steve allen wrote: From: steve allen Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bonding over time To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 8, 2008, 6:24 AM Aaron that would be nice, if only the mast was still in there, the guy I just bought it off cut it off 2" from the bottom, so the base of the mast is sat in the base cup, with the walls of the mast remnant sitting an proud. A mechanic mate has offered up 'soaking it in coke', which ii will try today, hopefully it will pop out, at least thats what I dreamnt last night cheers steve --- Aaron Williams wrote: > Steve > Slack up the rigging and get a dead blow hammer > start smacking the base while shaking the mast. > Aaron > > > --- On Sat, 6/7/08, steve allen > <stevepallen@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote: > > From: steve allen <stevepallen@ yahoo.co. uk> > Subject: [origamiboats] bonding over time > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008, 3:47 PM > > > > > > > I have a mast that has bonded itself into the base > plate, since it has sat there for 30 years[probably] > with not so much as a twist. has anyone got any > cunning idea of how to break that aluminium > /aluminium > bond > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ > _________ _ > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ > nowyoucan. html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ nowyoucan. html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17541|17244|2008-06-09 11:14:47|aaron riis|painting| I'm starting to make preparations for painting the inside of my '26 .   the plate has been wheel and primed, but years of time have started some surface rust in some places.  I have a small sandblaster and compressor which works well but very slow.  I found that a wire wheel and drill worked well on the accessible places.  here are my questions -  does you recommend wiping the plate with acetone.  I have tried vinegar as  mentioned inBrent's book, but I got rust streaks -does anyone have experience with organic rust converter? -I have 5 gallons of devoe bar rust. which i have just tried on a scrap piece of metal to see if it still works.  does anyone know what kind of thinners can be used? -I have thought that heating up the hull plate with a tiger torch from the outside of the boat will help to evaporate any moisture  on the inside of the boat before paint is applied.  I am nervous about doing this on the inside because propane is such a wet heat. All advice greatly appreciated, Aaron Riis --- On Mon, 6/9/08, Paul wrote: From: Paul Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuck Allah! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 9, 2008, 7:11 AM --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, jim dorey wrote: > > Paul wrote: > > > > > > Is there anything more useless than starting an argument with > > religious zealots? It's like trying to teach pigs to sing- it wastes > > your time and annoys the pig. > > that sounds familiar, almost like, a lazarus long quip. > Not sure of the origin, but it's one of my mother's favorite sayings Paul H [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17543|17543|2008-06-09 13:52:40|theboilerflue|windows|well I just went down to Idustrial paint and plastic today and 1/2 inch plexy is selling for the preposterous price of 350 for a 4x8 sheet anybody know of a better place to find that stuff around the island or vancouver. Also what is the colective prefered way of mounting these things? screwed into wooden frames through the cabin wall like in brent's book - that i imagine before foaming, or is there another way somebody prefered doing? When i asked why in hell they were charging so much the guy said oil is getting expensive; maybe i'll just have to bite the bullet.| 17544|17544|2008-06-09 14:35:29|theboilerflue|Picture of my boat|I posted some pictures of my boat under "Haidan's Boat" photos section| 17545|1565|2008-06-09 15:03:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: painting|On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 09:30:01AM -0700, Tom Mann wrote: > Hello aaron > A friend of mine who use to paint profesionaly told me never power wire > brush for paint prep, that it polished the surface so paint does not stick > well. I agree with your friend. I've done this, and the paint just slid off - it was like trying to paint over grease, even though I degreased the surface after brushing. Grinding seems to leave some "tooth" on the surface, but I've had problems with rust coming up again (although it may have been my technique - Brent has mentioned that it works for him.) In my experience, there's nothing that works quite like sandblasting - as much of a pain as it is. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17546|17543|2008-06-09 15:09:14|Ben Okopnik|Re: windows|On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 05:52:37PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > well I just went down to Idustrial paint and plastic today and 1/2 > inch plexy is selling for the preposterous price of 350 for a 4x8 > sheet anybody know of a better place to find that stuff around the > island or vancouver. I just bought some for my pilothouse, and that's almost exactly the price of it here. Mind you, I had to hunt really hard to get that price: most places around here are double that, and I'm not kidding. > Also what is the colective prefered way of > mounting these things? screwed into wooden frames through the cabin > wall like in brent's book - that i imagine before foaming, or is there > another way somebody prefered doing? > When i asked why in hell they were charging so much the guy said oil > is getting expensive; maybe i'll just have to bite the bullet. That's exactly what I got from the plastics guys around here, and that's exactly the line I'm hearing from the paint guys (all the synthetic stuff is oil-based as well.) Since there's a direct connection, and the price of oil _has_ gone way the hell up, I see no reason to doubt them. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17547|17514|2008-06-09 18:57:22|peter_d_wiley|Re: steel mast size|No it won't. To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract the ID from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses masts ans IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, he has the engineering data. I'll look it up if you like... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > will the difference make a big difference? > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: gary.lucas@... > > Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > > > > > > Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Tom Mann"> > > To:> > > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > > > >> Martin > >> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight > >> difference > >> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall > >> Tom > >> > >> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Brent, > >>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for the mast, > >>> > >>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. steel tube at > >>> 65 cents a pound > >>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at another > >>> place some 4 1/2 in. > >>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > >>> > >>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 1/2in > >>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 > >>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > >>> > >>> Thanks, Martin. > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 17548|17514|2008-06-09 22:43:40|martin demers|Re: steel mast size|Peter, I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is not a common size. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: peter_d_wiley@... > Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > No it won't. > > To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract the ID > from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. > > For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > > 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. > > For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > > 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. > > Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. > > In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't > have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses masts ans > IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and > materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, he has > the engineering data. > > I'll look it up if you like... > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: >> >> >> will the difference make a big difference? >> >> Martin. >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: gary.lucas@... >>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>> >>> >>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! >>> >>> Gary H. Lucas >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tom Mann"> >>> To:> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>> >>>> Martin >>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight >>>> difference >>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Brent, >>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for > the mast, >>>>> >>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. > steel tube at >>>>> 65 cents a pound >>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at > another >>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. >>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. >>>>> >>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 > 1/2in >>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 >>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Martin. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17549|17514|2008-06-09 23:48:02|Tom Mann|Re: steel mast size|Instead of 5-1/2" tube try 5" sch 10 pipe measurement would be about 5-1/2" OD On 6/9/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > Peter, > > I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is not a > common size. > > Martin. > > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: peter_d_wiley@... > > Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > > > > No it won't. > > > > To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract the ID > > from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. > > > > For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > > > > 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. > > > > For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > > > > 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. > > > > Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. > > > > In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't > > have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses masts ans > > IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and > > materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, he has > > the engineering data. > > > > I'll look it up if you like... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> will the difference make a big difference? > >> > >> Martin. > >> ________________________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> From: gary.lucas@... > >>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > >>> > >>> > >>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! > >>> > >>> Gary H. Lucas > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Tom Mann"> > >>> To:> > >>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > >>> > >>>> Martin > >>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight > >>>> difference > >>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall > >>>> Tom > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Brent, > >>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for > > the mast, > >>>>> > >>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. > > steel tube at > >>>>> 65 cents a pound > >>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at > > another > >>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. > >>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > >>>>> > >>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 > > 1/2in > >>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 > >>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, Martin. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>>> > >>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17550|17514|2008-06-10 02:16:12|Aaron Williams|Re: bonding over time|Did you mean to say 1220 F   and 660C for the melting point of aluminum? --- On Mon, 6/9/08, will jones wrote: From: will jones Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bonding over time To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 9, 2008, 3:17 AM Coke will not work very well with aluminum.  Sodium hydroxide, aka lye and available as drano will dissolve the aluminum oxide that is bonding your parts together.   What is your objective, other than separating the #(@(0!@& 3 g)*#@9 parts?  Do you want to keep one or the other or both in as good as shape as possible or is one sacraficial?   The lye will attack the aluminum and the aluminum oxide weakening both structures.& nbsp; The hot and cold approaches are your best bet for separating with minimal damage.  Do you have a way to drop some dry ice into the bottom of the mast?  Can you pull the mast and deck plate?  If you can, I'd try some dry ice inside the mast, then heat the deck plate with a propane torch, (Al melts at 1220 degrees C, so don't use an oxy-acetylene torch) and wack on it with a small hammer.  May have to do this several times. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Sun, 6/8/08, steve allen <stevepallen@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote: From: steve allen <stevepallen@ yahoo.co. uk> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bonding over time To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Sunday, June 8, 2008, 6:24 AM Aaron that would be nice, if only the mast was still in there, the guy I just bought it off cut it off 2" from the bottom, so the base of the mast is sat in the base cup, with the walls of the mast remnant sitting an proud. A mechanic mate has offered up 'soaking it in coke', which ii will try today, hopefully it will pop out, at least thats what I dreamnt last night cheers steve --- Aaron Williams <akenai@yahoo. com> wrote: > Steve > Slack up the rigging and get a dead blow hammer > start smacking the base while shaking the mast. > Aaron > > > --- On Sat, 6/7/08, steve allen > &lt;stevepallen @ yahoo.co. uk&gt; wrote: > > From: steve allen &lt;stevepallen @ yahoo.co. uk&gt; > Subject: [origamiboats] bonding over time > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008, 3:47 PM > > > > > > > I have a mast that has bonded itself into the base > plate, since it has sat there for 30 years[probably] > with not so much as a twist. has anyone got any > cunning idea of how to break that aluminium > /aluminium > bond > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ > _________ _ > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ > nowyoucan. html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ nowyoucan. html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17551|17514|2008-06-10 02:24:10|Aaron Williams|Re: bonding over time|Looks like Yahoo has a new bug in there system whatever   is I don have a clue. --- On Mon, 6/9/08, Aaron Williams wrote: From: Aaron Williams Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bonding over time To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 9, 2008, 10:16 PM Did you mean to say 1220 F   and 660C for the melting point of aluminum? --- On Mon, 6/9/08, will jones <morgan33t_ior@ yahoo.com> wrote: From: will jones <morgan33t_ior@ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bonding over time To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Monday, June 9, 2008, 3:17 AM Coke will not work very well with aluminum.& nbsp; Sodium hydroxide, aka lye and available as drano will dissolve the aluminum oxide that is bonding your parts together. &nbsp; What is your objective, other than separating the #(@(0!@& amp; 3 g)*#@9 parts?&nbsp; Do you want to keep one or the other or both in as good as shape as possible or is one sacraficial? &nbsp; The lye will attack the aluminum and the aluminum oxide weakening both structures.& amp; nbsp; The hot and cold approaches are your best bet for separating with minimal damage.& nbsp; Do you have a way to drop some dry ice into the bottom of the mast?&nbsp; Can you pull the mast and deck plate?&nbsp; If you can, I'd try some dry ice inside the mast, then heat the deck plate with a propane torch, (Al melts at 1220 degrees C, so don't use an oxy-acetylene torch) and wack on it with a small hammer.& nbsp; May have to do this several times. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Sun, 6/8/08, steve allen &lt;stevepallen @ yahoo.co. uk&gt; wrote: From: steve allen &lt;stevepallen @ yahoo.co. uk&gt; Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bonding over time To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Sunday, June 8, 2008, 6:24 AM Aaron that would be nice, if only the mast was still in there, the guy I just bought it off cut it off 2" from the bottom, so the base of the mast is sat in the base cup, with the walls of the mast remnant sitting an proud. A mechanic mate has offered up 'soaking it in coke', which ii will try today, hopefully it will pop out, at least thats what I dreamnt last night cheers steve --- Aaron Williams &lt;akenai@ yahoo. com&gt; wrote: &gt; Steve &gt; Slack up the rigging and get a dead blow hammer &gt; start smacking the base while shaking the mast. &gt; Aaron &gt; &gt; &gt; --- On Sat, 6/7/08, steve allen &gt; &amp;lt; stevepallen @ yahoo.co. uk&amp;gt; wrote: &gt; &gt; From: steve allen &amp;lt; stevepallen @ yahoo.co. uk&amp;gt; &gt; Subject: [origamiboats] bonding over time &gt; To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com &gt; Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008, 3:47 PM &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I have a mast that has bonded itself into the base &gt; plate, since it has sat there for 30 years[probably] &gt; with not so much as a twist. has anyone got any &gt; cunning idea of how to break that aluminium &gt; /aluminium &gt; bond &gt; &gt; ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ &gt; _________ _ &gt; Sent from Yahoo! Mail. &gt; A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ &gt; nowyoucan. html &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; [Non-text portions of this message have been &gt; removed] &gt; &gt; ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ nowyoucan. html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17552|17552|2008-06-10 03:49:17|laura.benning|New Freebies to Collect! (selection 2)|I was sent this fantastic 100% free link by a friend, so I thought I would share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a blog page where you can collect hundreds of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. There is even some funny videos to watch! Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://moourl.com/freebiemix2 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week| 17553|17514|2008-06-10 09:44:31|will jones|Re: bonding over time|Yaaaa, that way, and even higher for aluminum oxide. :) There seems to be something wrong with the rich text setting when replying or we are both typing in our sleep. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Tue, 6/10/08, Aaron Williams wrote: From: Aaron Williams Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bonding over time To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 2:16 AM Did you mean to say 1220 F   and 660C for the melting point of aluminum? --- On Mon, 6/9/08, will jones wrote: From: will jones Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bonding over time To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Monday, June 9, 2008, 3:17 AM Coke will not work very well with aluminum.& nbsp; Sodium hydroxide, aka lye and available as drano will dissolve the aluminum oxide that is bonding your parts together.   What is your objective, other than separating the #(@(0!@& amp; 3 g)*#@9 parts?  Do you want to keep one or the other or both in as good as shape as possible or is one sacraficial?   The lye will attack the aluminum and the aluminum oxide weakening both structures.& amp; nbsp; The hot and cold approaches are your best bet for separating with minimal damage.& nbsp; Do you have a way to drop some dry ice into the bottom of the mast?  Can you pull the mast and deck plate?  If you can, I'd try some dry ice inside the mast, then heat the deck plate with a propane torch, (Al melts at 1220 degrees C, so don't use an oxy-acetylene torch) and wack on it with a small hammer.& nbsp; May have to do this several times. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Sun, 6/8/08, steve allen <stevepallen @ yahoo.co. uk> wrote: From: steve allen <stevepallen @ yahoo.co. uk> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bonding over time To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Sunday, June 8, 2008, 6:24 AM Aaron that would be nice, if only the mast was still in there, the guy I just bought it off cut it off 2" from the bottom, so the base of the mast is sat in the base cup, with the walls of the mast remnant sitting an proud. A mechanic mate has offered up 'soaking it in coke', which ii will try today, hopefully it will pop out, at least thats what I dreamnt last night cheers steve --- Aaron Williams <akenai@ yahoo. com> wrote: > Steve > Slack up the rigging and get a dead blow hammer > start smacking the base while shaking the mast. > Aaron > > > --- On Sat, 6/7/08, steve allen > &lt; stevepallen @ yahoo.co. uk&gt; wrote: > > From: steve allen &lt; stevepallen @ yahoo.co. uk&gt; > Subject: [origamiboats] bonding over time > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008, 3:47 PM > > > > > > > I have a mast that has bonded itself into the base > plate, since it has sat there for 30 years[probably] > with not so much as a twist. has anyone got any > cunning idea of how to break that aluminium > /aluminium > bond > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ > _________ _ > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ > nowyoucan. html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs yahoo.com/ nowyoucan. html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17554|1565|2008-06-10 10:13:07|will jones|Re: painting|I've never had a problem with wire brushing before painting.  The biggest problems I have seen is with not descaling steel and not using a clean rag to wipe off the solvent/oil on the steel.  I slap a coarse wire cup on my grinder and typically have at steel before welding up.  Then I hit it with the coarse cup again before painting. I prefer to rent a sandblaster though.  Costs more, but takes a lot less time.  I have had no better paint performance from either descaling approach. Residual oil is always a problem and a simple solvent wipe does not remove it. We soaked parts in sodium hydroxide baths for degreasing/descaling before sulfuric pickling. You could tell if the parts were not being effectively degreased after they came out of the final rinse after pickling by the areas that were not black. If you are having paint slide off, then that steel is not degreased. Wire brushing leaves too rough of a surface and will not remove and oils. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Mon, 6/9/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] painting To: "Origami Boat list" Date: Monday, June 9, 2008, 3:03 PM On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 09:30:01AM -0700, Tom Mann wrote: > Hello aaron > A friend of mine who use to paint profesionaly told me never power wire > brush for paint prep, that it polished the surface so paint does not stick > well. I agree with your friend. I've done this, and the paint just slid off - it was like trying to paint over grease, even though I degreased the surface after brushing. Grinding seems to leave some "tooth" on the surface, but I've had problems with rust coming up again (although it may have been my technique - Brent has mentioned that it works for him.) In my experience, there's nothing that works quite like sandblasting - as much of a pain as it is. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * | 17555|1565|2008-06-10 11:16:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: painting|On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 07:13:04AM -0700, will jones wrote: > > Residual oil is always a problem and a simple solvent wipe does not > remove it. We soaked parts in sodium hydroxide baths for > degreasing/descaling before sulfuric pickling. You could tell if the > parts were not being effectively degreased after they came out of the > final rinse after pickling by the areas that were not black. > > If you are having paint slide off, then that steel is not degreased. > Wire brushing leaves too rough of a surface and will not remove and > oils. OK, I'm willing to believe. :) However, the practical side of this seems to take us right back where we started: if wire brushing and solvent doesn't degrease the surface, then it's still not paintable. Soaking the area in sodium hydroxide doesn't sound practical either - that stuff is *really* bad news. Did I miss something, or are we back to "sandblasting or grinding are the only really practical ways to get the rust off"? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17556|17556|2008-06-10 12:41:29|Tom Mann|Help deciding to change cockpit|Hello All Well Ive been giving myself a headache thinking about it. The lazzerett looks good but not practical, waist of space, cockpit to small only 40" long. If I'm going to change it now is the time to do it, Thinking about cutting out every thing from back of main cabin and starting over. full length cockpit with big drains through transom, slope the decks aft from cabin right now they go up from there following the shear and there is no where the water can drain from windward side when heeled . Quarter births are not in and not painted on inside yet, topside is only primerd. Figure it would take a few days work and a couple sheets of 12 gage. when finished it will be about 66" long . I can see a lot of benefit from it but not sure its worth it, somebody please talk me into or out of it . At first I just copied what was on the drawing and thought it would be fine, figured next boat I'll make changes to fit my liking but with the price of material doubling not sure that's going to happen. If I finish it like it is then decide to change later that would be a lot more work and expense. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17557|1565|2008-06-10 13:46:12|will jones|Re: painting|Nope, there is no problem with wire brushing. Grinding will spread out the oil also and doing large areas has to be pretty impracticle.  Sandblasting to white removes alot of surface material.   If paint is not sticking, there is something on the steel.  It is not because the steel is too polished by wire brushing.  Wire brushing is a pretty rough technique.  Proper cleaning uses something like Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK).  Wipe on then wipe off with another rag.  Use lots of rags, change frequently, do not dispose rags in any combustible container or confine in metal non-safety container.  Unless you like a nice fire.  I burn mine down at the garden potash creator, aka burn pit. County ordinances you know.  Acetone evaporates too fast.  Mineral spirits or naphtha do not wipe off easily.  If I am running low on MEK, I will add Acetone and/or MEK to mineral spirits 10, 20, 30%.  MEK cuts most anything and has a much slower rate of evaporation than Acetone.   Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Tue, 6/10/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] painting To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 11:16 AM On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 07:13:04AM -0700, will jones wrote: > > Residual oil is always a problem and a simple solvent wipe does not > remove it. We soaked parts in sodium hydroxide baths for > degreasing/descalin g before sulfuric pickling. You could tell if the > parts were not being effectively degreased after they came out of the > final rinse after pickling by the areas that were not black. > > If you are having paint slide off, then that steel is not degreased. > Wire brushing leaves too rough of a surface and will not remove and > oils. OK, I'm willing to believe. :) However, the practical side of this seems to take us right back where we started: if wire brushing and solvent doesn't degrease the surface, then it's still not paintable. Soaking the area in sodium hydroxide doesn't sound practical either - that stuff is *really* bad news. Did I miss something, or are we back to "sandblasting or grinding are the only really practical ways to get the rust off"? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17558|17556|2008-06-10 15:31:30|brentswain38|Re: Help deciding to change cockpit|It's not really worth it. You can put a removeable piece of plywood in to take the seat up to deck level and sleep in it anyway when you want to.66 inches is a bit too short to sleep in anyway. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello All > Well Ive been giving myself a headache thinking about it. The lazzerett > looks good but not practical, waist of space, cockpit to small only 40" > long. > If I'm going to change it now is the time to do it, Thinking about cutting > out every thing from back of main cabin and starting over. full length > cockpit with big drains through transom, slope the decks aft from cabin > right now they go up from there following the shear and there is no where > the water can drain from windward side when heeled . Quarter births are not > in and not painted on inside yet, topside is only primerd. Figure it would > take a few days work and a couple sheets of 12 gage. when finished it will > be about 66" long . I can see a lot of benefit from it but not sure its > worth it, somebody please talk me into or out of it . > At first I just copied what was on the drawing and thought it would be > fine, figured next boat I'll make changes to fit my liking but with the > price of material doubling not sure that's going to happen. If I finish it > like it is then decide to change later that would be a lot more work and > expense. > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17559|17514|2008-06-10 15:34:30|brentswain38|Re: bonding over time|A welded up gizmo to wrap around the base of the mast and bolt thru the mast may provide a place to put a hydraulic jack under it and get some real power to jack it out.Soaking it with lots of fluid film for many days may weaken the bond. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, steve allen wrote: > > I have a mast that has bonded itself into the base > plate, since it has sat there for 30 years[probably] > with not so much as a twist. has anyone got any > cunning idea of how to break that aluminium /aluminium > bond > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html > | 17560|17560|2008-06-10 15:37:37|brentswain38|Spanish version of Origami boatbuilding book|I just finished the Spanish version of my book . It took more pages than the English version so will cost an extra $5 Brent| 17561|17543|2008-06-10 15:41:46|brentswain38|Re: windows|Those guys are bandits. There is a glass place behind the Driftwood mall that sells plexi. You caN ALSO GET IT FROM BEHIND THE NETS IN THE HOCKY RINK, THEY BREAk it sometimes. Having the right contascts helps. They need a bit of polishing to get the hockey puck marks out. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > well I just went down to Idustrial paint and plastic today and 1/2 > inch plexy is selling for the preposterous price of 350 for a 4x8 > sheet anybody know of a better place to find that stuff around the > island or vancouver. Also what is the colective prefered way of > mounting these things? screwed into wooden frames through the cabin > wall like in brent's book - that i imagine before foaming, or is there > another way somebody prefered doing? > When i asked why in hell they were charging so much the guy said oil > is getting expensive; maybe i'll just have to bite the bullet. > | 17562|17514|2008-06-10 17:42:07|martin demers|Re: steel mast size|I found some, but it is new material wich is much more expensive than used steel at the scrap yard, by the way concerning the size, I noticed from pictures that mast on junk rigs seems bigger than on conventionnal rigging Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: tazmannm@... > Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:48:00 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > Instead of 5-1/2" tube try 5" sch 10 pipe measurement would be about 5-1/2" > OD > > On 6/9/08, martin demers> wrote: >> >> >> >> Peter, >> >> I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is not a >> common size. >> >> Martin. >> >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: peter_d_wiley@... >>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size >>> >>> >>> No it won't. >>> >>> To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract the ID >>> from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. >>> >>> For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: >>> >>> 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. >>> >>> For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: >>> >>> 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. >>> >>> Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. >>> >>> In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't >>> have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses masts ans >>> IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and >>> materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, he has >>> the engineering data. >>> >>> I'll look it up if you like... >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> will the difference make a big difference? >>>> >>>> Martin. >>>> ________________________________ >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>> From: gary.lucas@... >>>>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! >>>>> >>>>> Gary H. Lucas >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tom Mann"> >>>>> To:> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight >>>>>> difference >>>>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall >>>>>> Tom >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Brent, >>>>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for >>> the mast, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. >>> steel tube at >>>>>>> 65 cents a pound >>>>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at >>> another >>>>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. >>>>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 >>> 1/2in >>>>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 >>>>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, Martin. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17563|17514|2008-06-10 18:58:13|peter_d_wiley|Re: steel mast size|I was talking to Tom some time ago and would have to check the details but IIRC Tom said that you could swap to 5" sched 10 steel pipe instead of 5" sched 40 aluminium pipe which is the spec for a Gazelle with junk or gaff rig. There was a slight weight penalty but not a lot, and a great saving in materials cost. As for new versus used, if there was any doubt about the quality I'd go for new. A mast isn't really a place to be cutting costs at the expense of quality. What lengths can you get it in? Each weld joint needs to be done carefully, with a backing sleeve and full penetration welds. With new material you can probably get away with a single join depending on the mast height. If you can get 6" OD by 1/8" wall at a good price, your penalty is a mast that's 10% heavier than the 5 1/2" OD one, has somewhat more wind resistance (probably not a lot), but is stiffer. Euler's formula again. If you want to know how much stiffer, I'll dig the details out. I may anyway, as a few numbers help. As for junk rig masts, a lot of them are unstayed so have to be a lot thicker to minimise whip in a seaway. Another thing to be aware of is that a deck stepped mast is not as stiff in column as a keel stepped one. The keel stepped mast is considered to be a column with one fixed end and one pinned end; a deck stepped mast is pinned/pinned. A really good, h/duty tabernackle type base on the deck, fixed thru to the hull, gives the same effect as a keel stepped mast. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > I found some, but it is new material wich is much more expensive than used steel at the scrap yard, > > by the way concerning the size, I noticed from pictures that mast on junk rigs seems bigger than on conventionnal rigging > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: tazmannm@... > > Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:48:00 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > > > > Instead of 5-1/2" tube try 5" sch 10 pipe measurement would be about 5-1/2" > > OD > > > > On 6/9/08, martin demers> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Peter, > >> > >> I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is not a > >> common size. > >> > >> Martin. > >> > >> ________________________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> From: peter_d_wiley@... > >>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > >>> > >>> > >>> No it won't. > >>> > >>> To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract the ID > >>> from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. > >>> > >>> For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > >>> > >>> 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. > >>> > >>> For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > >>> > >>> 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. > >>> > >>> Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. > >>> > >>> In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't > >>> have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses masts ans > >>> IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and > >>> materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, he has > >>> the engineering data. > >>> > >>> I'll look it up if you like... > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> will the difference make a big difference? > >>>> > >>>> Martin. > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>>> From: gary.lucas@ > >>>>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 > >>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! > >>>>> > >>>>> Gary H. Lucas > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Tom Mann"> > >>>>> To:> > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > >>>>> > >>>>>> Martin > >>>>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight > >>>>>> difference > >>>>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall > >>>>>> Tom > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Brent, > >>>>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for > >>> the mast, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. > >>> steel tube at > >>>>>>> 65 cents a pound > >>>>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at > >>> another > >>>>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. > >>>>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 > >>> 1/2in > >>>>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 > >>>>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks, Martin. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> __________________________________________________________ > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 17564|17556|2008-06-10 19:03:58|peter_d_wiley|Re: Help deciding to change cockpit|Why not get rid of the cockpit altogether and go with a flush after deck area? Then you have ALL the space underneath accessible. Brent's right, you're still screwed for sleeping in the cockpit with 66". --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello All > Well Ive been giving myself a headache thinking about it. The lazzerett > looks good but not practical, waist of space, cockpit to small only 40" > long. > If I'm going to change it now is the time to do it, Thinking about cutting > out every thing from back of main cabin and starting over. full length > cockpit with big drains through transom, slope the decks aft from cabin > right now they go up from there following the shear and there is no where > the water can drain from windward side when heeled . Quarter births are not > in and not painted on inside yet, topside is only primerd. Figure it would > take a few days work and a couple sheets of 12 gage. when finished it will > be about 66" long . I can see a lot of benefit from it but not sure its > worth it, somebody please talk me into or out of it . > At first I just copied what was on the drawing and thought it would be > fine, figured next boat I'll make changes to fit my liking but with the > price of material doubling not sure that's going to happen. If I finish it > like it is then decide to change later that would be a lot more work and > expense. > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17565|17514|2008-06-10 19:21:55|steve allen|Re: bonding over time|thats about where i am up to, soak it and crack on with some other jobs. thanks for all the responses --- brentswain38 wrote: > A welded up gizmo to wrap around the base of the > mast and bolt thru > the mast may provide a place to put a hydraulic > jack under it and get > some real power to jack it out.Soaking it with lots > of fluid film for > many days may weaken the bond. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, steve allen > wrote: > > > > I have a mast that has bonded itself into the base > > plate, since it has sat there for 30 > years[probably] > > with not so much as a twist. has anyone got any > > cunning idea of how to break that aluminium > /aluminium > > bond > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > > A Smarter Email > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html| 17566|17556|2008-06-10 20:43:20|Tom Mann|Re: Help deciding to change cockpit|Well I wasn't thinking to much about sleeping in the cockpit, more about room to sail when I have 4 people aboard and on occasion more day sailing. Little more elbow room would be nice. Ive gotten use to the traveler mounted in center cockpit and with only 40" it's not really enough room. Tom On 6/10/08, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > Why not get rid of the cockpit altogether and go with a flush after > deck area? Then you have ALL the space underneath accessible. Brent's > right, you're still screwed for sleeping in the cockpit with 66". > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Hello All > > Well Ive been giving myself a headache thinking about it. The lazzerett > > looks good but not practical, waist of space, cockpit to small only 40" > > long. > > If I'm going to change it now is the time to do it, Thinking about > cutting > > out every thing from back of main cabin and starting over. full length > > cockpit with big drains through transom, slope the decks aft from cabin > > right now they go up from there following the shear and there is no > where > > the water can drain from windward side when heeled . Quarter births > are not > > in and not painted on inside yet, topside is only primerd. Figure it > would > > take a few days work and a couple sheets of 12 gage. when finished > it will > > be about 66" long . I can see a lot of benefit from it but not sure its > > worth it, somebody please talk me into or out of it . > > At first I just copied what was on the drawing and thought it would be > > fine, figured next boat I'll make changes to fit my liking but with the > > price of material doubling not sure that's going to happen. If I > finish it > > like it is then decide to change later that would be a lot more work and > > expense. > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17567|17543|2008-06-10 21:29:07|theboilerflue|Re: windows|Thanks for the tip a friend of mine also told me of a "plexiglass dumpster in victoria that some times would have whole sheets that had broken a bit. i think i'll go check that out first. If i do end up buying do you think that the higher cost of "cast" is worth it rather than extruded. cast is apparently more impact resistant. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Those guys are bandits. There is a glass place behind the Driftwood > mall that sells plexi. You caN ALSO GET IT FROM BEHIND THE NETS IN THE > HOCKY RINK, THEY BREAk it sometimes. Having the right contascts helps. > They need a bit of polishing to get the hockey puck marks out. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > well I just went down to Idustrial paint and plastic today and 1/2 > > inch plexy is selling for the preposterous price of 350 for a 4x8 > > sheet anybody know of a better place to find that stuff around the > > island or vancouver. Also what is the colective prefered way of > > mounting these things? screwed into wooden frames through the cabin > > wall like in brent's book - that i imagine before foaming, or is there > > another way somebody prefered doing? > > When i asked why in hell they were charging so much the guy said oil > > is getting expensive; maybe i'll just have to bite the bullet. > > > | 17568|17514|2008-06-10 21:56:37|martin demers|Re: steel mast size|I can get both size tubes (5 1/2in.x1/8in. or 6in x 1/8in.) in 20ft lenghts, wich will need only one weld in the center, my mast is 40ft long. on my boat the mast is deck stepped. Thanks for the advice, Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: peter_d_wiley@... > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:58:11 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > I was talking to Tom some time ago and would have to check the details > but IIRC Tom said that you could swap to 5" sched 10 steel pipe > instead of 5" sched 40 aluminium pipe which is the spec for a Gazelle > with junk or gaff rig. There was a slight weight penalty but not a > lot, and a great saving in materials cost. > > As for new versus used, if there was any doubt about the quality I'd > go for new. A mast isn't really a place to be cutting costs at the > expense of quality. What lengths can you get it in? Each weld joint > needs to be done carefully, with a backing sleeve and full penetration > welds. With new material you can probably get away with a single join > depending on the mast height. > > If you can get 6" OD by 1/8" wall at a good price, your penalty is a > mast that's 10% heavier than the 5 1/2" OD one, has somewhat more wind > resistance (probably not a lot), but is stiffer. Euler's formula > again. If you want to know how much stiffer, I'll dig the details out. > I may anyway, as a few numbers help. > > As for junk rig masts, a lot of them are unstayed so have to be a lot > thicker to minimise whip in a seaway. > > Another thing to be aware of is that a deck stepped mast is not as > stiff in column as a keel stepped one. The keel stepped mast is > considered to be a column with one fixed end and one pinned end; a > deck stepped mast is pinned/pinned. A really good, h/duty tabernackle > type base on the deck, fixed thru to the hull, gives the same effect > as a keel stepped mast. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: >> >> >> I found some, but it is new material wich is much more expensive > than used steel at the scrap yard, >> >> by the way concerning the size, I noticed from pictures that mast on > junk rigs seems bigger than on conventionnal rigging >> >> Martin >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: tazmannm@... >>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:48:00 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size >>> >>> >>> Instead of 5-1/2" tube try 5" sch 10 pipe measurement would be > about 5-1/2" >>> OD >>> >>> On 6/9/08, martin demers> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter, >>>> >>>> I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is > not a >>>> common size. >>>> >>>> Martin. >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>> From: peter_d_wiley@... >>>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 >>>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No it won't. >>>>> >>>>> To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract the ID >>>>> from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. >>>>> >>>>> For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: >>>>> >>>>> 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. >>>>> >>>>> For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: >>>>> >>>>> 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. >>>>> >>>>> Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. >>>>> >>>>> In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't >>>>> have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses > masts ans >>>>> IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and >>>>> materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, > he has >>>>> the engineering data. >>>>> >>>>> I'll look it up if you like... >>>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> will the difference make a big difference? >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin. >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>> From: gary.lucas@ >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gary H. Lucas >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Tom Mann"> >>>>>>> To:> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight >>>>>>>> difference >>>>>>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall >>>>>>>> Tom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brent, >>>>>>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for >>>>> the mast, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. >>>>> steel tube at >>>>>>>>> 65 cents a pound >>>>>>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at >>>>> another >>>>>>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. >>>>>>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 >>>>> 1/2in >>>>>>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 >>>>>>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, Martin. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17569|17514|2008-06-10 22:05:25|martin demers|Re: steel mast size|I also shopped for aluminium but it is far too expensive compare to steel, I dont think it would be smart to start buying rigging and equipment for more than I paid for my boat , it is a old 35ft steel hull from the '60s after the boat is fixed and I have experience sailing it and when I will get more experience to decide more exactly what I prefer for equipment, than I think it will be worthed to buy some more expensive rigging Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: peter_d_wiley@... > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:58:11 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > I was talking to Tom some time ago and would have to check the details > but IIRC Tom said that you could swap to 5" sched 10 steel pipe > instead of 5" sched 40 aluminium pipe which is the spec for a Gazelle > with junk or gaff rig. There was a slight weight penalty but not a > lot, and a great saving in materials cost. > > As for new versus used, if there was any doubt about the quality I'd > go for new. A mast isn't really a place to be cutting costs at the > expense of quality. What lengths can you get it in? Each weld joint > needs to be done carefully, with a backing sleeve and full penetration > welds. With new material you can probably get away with a single join > depending on the mast height. > > If you can get 6" OD by 1/8" wall at a good price, your penalty is a > mast that's 10% heavier than the 5 1/2" OD one, has somewhat more wind > resistance (probably not a lot), but is stiffer. Euler's formula > again. If you want to know how much stiffer, I'll dig the details out. > I may anyway, as a few numbers help. > > As for junk rig masts, a lot of them are unstayed so have to be a lot > thicker to minimise whip in a seaway. > > Another thing to be aware of is that a deck stepped mast is not as > stiff in column as a keel stepped one. The keel stepped mast is > considered to be a column with one fixed end and one pinned end; a > deck stepped mast is pinned/pinned. A really good, h/duty tabernackle > type base on the deck, fixed thru to the hull, gives the same effect > as a keel stepped mast. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: >> >> >> I found some, but it is new material wich is much more expensive > than used steel at the scrap yard, >> >> by the way concerning the size, I noticed from pictures that mast on > junk rigs seems bigger than on conventionnal rigging >> >> Martin >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: tazmannm@... >>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:48:00 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size >>> >>> >>> Instead of 5-1/2" tube try 5" sch 10 pipe measurement would be > about 5-1/2" >>> OD >>> >>> On 6/9/08, martin demers> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter, >>>> >>>> I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is > not a >>>> common size. >>>> >>>> Martin. >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>> From: peter_d_wiley@... >>>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 >>>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No it won't. >>>>> >>>>> To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract the ID >>>>> from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. >>>>> >>>>> For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: >>>>> >>>>> 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. >>>>> >>>>> For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: >>>>> >>>>> 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. >>>>> >>>>> Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. >>>>> >>>>> In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't >>>>> have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses > masts ans >>>>> IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and >>>>> materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, > he has >>>>> the engineering data. >>>>> >>>>> I'll look it up if you like... >>>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> will the difference make a big difference? >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin. >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>> From: gary.lucas@ >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gary H. Lucas >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Tom Mann"> >>>>>>> To:> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight >>>>>>>> difference >>>>>>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall >>>>>>>> Tom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brent, >>>>>>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for >>>>> the mast, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. >>>>> steel tube at >>>>>>>>> 65 cents a pound >>>>>>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at >>>>> another >>>>>>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. >>>>>>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 >>>>> 1/2in >>>>>>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 >>>>>>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, Martin. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17570|17543|2008-06-11 01:46:39|kingsknight4life|Re: windows|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Those guys are bandits. There is a glass place behind the Driftwood > mall that sells plexi. You caN ALSO GET IT FROM BEHIND THE NETS IN THE > HOCKY RINK, THEY BREAk it sometimes. Having the right contascts helps. > They need a bit of polishing to get the hockey puck marks out. > >Brent Did you have any luck getting puck marks and scratches out? I got a piece and tried hard to remove the with no luck, I tried buffing with the pricy "special polish" they sell at plastics shops and tooth paste and wet and dry sand paper. Nothing worked they all looked like crap. Rowland| 17571|1565|2008-06-11 08:43:33|sae140|Re: painting|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > Did I miss something, or are we back to "sandblasting or grinding are > the only really practical ways to get the rust off"? > Some steel manufacturers supply wheel-abraded and pre-primed steel which is generally considered good enough to take further layers of paint. But the wheel-abrading process used to remove the mill-scale involves peening the material with hard steel shot held within a captive 'wheel'. Unless anyone knows differently, I can't believe that the surface of wheel-abraded steel is any less smooth than that produced by wire-brushing. Colin| 17572|17514|2008-06-11 16:04:20|Paul Wilson|Re: steel mast size|Hi Martin, In my opinion, I would do everything I could to get an aluminum mast. I think the cost of a new blank aluminum mast, aluminum tube or preferably a used mast with the extra gear on it is worth it. It's hard to think of anything that would reduce the resale value of a boat more than having a steel mast and I hate the idea of the extra weight up the mast. It has been a long time since I was looking for a mast, but I am sure deals are still available. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of martin demers Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size I also shopped for aluminium but it is far too expensive compare to steel, I dont think it would be smart to start buying rigging and equipment for more than I paid for my boat , it is a old 35ft steel hull from the '60s after the boat is fixed and I have experience sailing it and when I will get more experience to decide more exactly what I prefer for equipment, than I think it will be worthed to buy some more expensive rigging Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: peter_d_wiley@... > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:58:11 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > I was talking to Tom some time ago and would have to check the details > but IIRC Tom said that you could swap to 5" sched 10 steel pipe > instead of 5" sched 40 aluminium pipe which is the spec for a Gazelle > with junk or gaff rig. There was a slight weight penalty but not a > lot, and a great saving in materials cost. > > As for new versus used, if there was any doubt about the quality I'd > go for new. A mast isn't really a place to be cutting costs at the > expense of quality. What lengths can you get it in? Each weld joint > needs to be done carefully, with a backing sleeve and full penetration > welds. With new material you can probably get away with a single join > depending on the mast height. > > If you can get 6" OD by 1/8" wall at a good price, your penalty is a > mast that's 10% heavier than the 5 1/2" OD one, has somewhat more wind > resistance (probably not a lot), but is stiffer. Euler's formula > again. If you want to know how much stiffer, I'll dig the details out. > I may anyway, as a few numbers help. > > As for junk rig masts, a lot of them are unstayed so have to be a lot > thicker to minimise whip in a seaway. > > Another thing to be aware of is that a deck stepped mast is not as > stiff in column as a keel stepped one. The keel stepped mast is > considered to be a column with one fixed end and one pinned end; a > deck stepped mast is pinned/pinned. A really good, h/duty tabernackle > type base on the deck, fixed thru to the hull, gives the same effect > as a keel stepped mast. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , martin demers > wrote: >> >> >> I found some, but it is new material wich is much more expensive > than used steel at the scrap yard, >> >> by the way concerning the size, I noticed from pictures that mast on > junk rigs seems bigger than on conventionnal rigging >> >> Martin >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: tazmannm@... >>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:48:00 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size >>> >>> >>> Instead of 5-1/2" tube try 5" sch 10 pipe measurement would be > about 5-1/2" >>> OD >>> >>> On 6/9/08, martin demers> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter, >>>> >>>> I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is > not a >>>> common size. >>>> >>>> Martin. >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>> From: peter_d_wiley@... >>>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 >>>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No it won't. >>>>> >>>>> To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract the ID >>>>> from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. >>>>> >>>>> For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: >>>>> >>>>> 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. >>>>> >>>>> For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: >>>>> >>>>> 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. >>>>> >>>>> Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. >>>>> >>>>> In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't >>>>> have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses > masts ans >>>>> IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and >>>>> materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, > he has >>>>> the engineering data. >>>>> >>>>> I'll look it up if you like... >>>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , martin demers >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> will the difference make a big difference? >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin. >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>> From: gary.lucas@ >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gary H. Lucas >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Tom Mann"> >>>>>>> To:> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight >>>>>>>> difference >>>>>>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall >>>>>>>> Tom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brent, >>>>>>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for >>>>> the mast, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. >>>>> steel tube at >>>>>>>>> 65 cents a pound >>>>>>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at >>>>> another >>>>>>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. >>>>>>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 >>>>> 1/2in >>>>>>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 >>>>>>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, Martin. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> > > > __________________________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1495 - Release Date: 6/10/2008 5:11 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17573|1565|2008-06-11 16:28:48|Paul Wilson|Re: painting|I don't think wheel abrading involves captive steel shot as you describe. I think the action is a lot more like sandblasting since the wheel is just a mechanism to fling the shot against the metal. The dimples in the steel are rounder and less sharp than after sand blasting but still give good relatively good grip for the paint. I think the important thing is the angle of the shot hitting at right angles to the plate rather than a wire wheel hitting the steel from the side and having a polishing action. All other things being equal, I have been told that sand-blasting gives a better surface for paint than wheel abrading but that wheel abrading was definitely better than other mechanical means like a wire brush. Cheers, Paul From Wikipedia: Wheel Blasting: Wheel blasting is typically not categorized as an abrasive blasting operation because there is not a propellant (gas or liquid) used to propel the abrasive but deserves mention. Rather, a centrifugal wheel is used to propel the abrasive against the substrate. Wheel machines are used for high-power, high-efficiency blasting operations with recyclable abrasive (typically steel or stainless steel). Specialized wheel blast machines propel plastic abrasive in a cryogenic chamber; this type of wheel blasting is usually used for deflashing plastic and rubber components. The size of the wheel blast machine, and the number and power of the wheels vary considerably depending on the parts to be blasted as well as on the expected result and efficiency From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:44 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: painting --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Ben Okopnik wrote: > Did I miss something, or are we back to "sandblasting or grinding are > the only really practical ways to get the rust off"? > Some steel manufacturers supply wheel-abraded and pre-primed steel which is generally considered good enough to take further layers of paint. But the wheel-abrading process used to remove the mill-scale involves peening the material with hard steel shot held within a captive 'wheel'. Unless anyone knows differently, I can't believe that the surface of wheel-abraded steel is any less smooth than that produced by wire-brushing. Colin No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1495 - Release Date: 6/10/2008 5:11 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17574|1565|2008-06-11 16:32:24|Aaron Williams|Re: painting|Paul  That is the way it was explained to me last year when I bought my Steel. The surface a year later still feels like sand paper. Aaron --- On Wed, 6/11/08, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: painting To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 11, 2008, 12:28 PM I don't think wheel abrading involves captive steel shot as you describe. I think the action is a lot more like sandblasting since the wheel is just a mechanism to fling the shot against the metal. The dimples in the steel are rounder and less sharp than after sand blasting but still give good relatively good grip for the paint. I think the important thing is the angle of the shot hitting at right angles to the plate rather than a wire wheel hitting the steel from the side and having a polishing action. All other things being equal, I have been told that sand-blasting gives a better surface for paint than wheel abrading but that wheel abrading was definitely better than other mechanical means like a wire brush. Cheers, Paul From Wikipedia: Wheel Blasting: Wheel blasting is typically not categorized as an abrasive blasting operation because there is not a propellant (gas or liquid) used to propel the abrasive but deserves mention. Rather, a centrifugal wheel is used to propel the abrasive against the substrate. Wheel machines are used for high-power, high-efficiency blasting operations with recyclable abrasive (typically steel or stainless steel). Specialized wheel blast machines propel plastic abrasive in a cryogenic chamber; this type of wheel blasting is usually used for deflashing plastic and rubber components. The size of the wheel blast machine, and the number and power of the wheels vary considerably depending on the parts to be blasted as well as on the expected result and efficiency From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:44 AM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: painting --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com , Ben Okopnik wrote: > Did I miss something, or are we back to "sandblasting or grinding are > the only really practical ways to get the rust off"? > Some steel manufacturers supply wheel-abraded and pre-primed steel which is generally considered good enough to take further layers of paint. But the wheel-abrading process used to remove the mill-scale involves peening the material with hard steel shot held within a captive 'wheel'. Unless anyone knows differently, I can't believe that the surface of wheel-abraded steel is any less smooth than that produced by wire-brushing. Colin No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1495 - Release Date: 6/10/2008 5:11 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17575|17575|2008-06-11 22:08:45|Salvador|Shop for Cutting Steel with Plasma CNC and Marker in Mexico|I have opened a shop in Queretaro, Mexico to cut steel plates with CNC and plasma. The max plate size is 8' by 20', and the max thickness is 3/4". I also have an accessory that allows me to write text or numbers to the parts. The shop is open to new jobs and also very flexible on pricing since currently the machine is ready to be used. You can write to info@... or cristina.hernandez@... to share with us your needs and/or request quotations. Through NAFTA, we can easily ship to Canada and the USA. But if you want the pieces be sent somewhere else, we will certainly look into shipping to other countries. Currently the price to cut carbon steel with plasma is $1.75USD/kilo. And based on quantity, the price can be certainly improved.| 17576|17576|2008-06-12 05:23:52|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Job Vacancy For Field Cost Estimator & Chief Instrument Engineer|We are PT. MBP Skill Indonesia, a National Company focusing on HR. Services, principally Consulting, Contracting, Training and Administration. We are currently inviting qualified Engineer for our Client to fill the position of Chief Instrument Engineer (MBP 2-211641) Qualifications desired: • Male / female min 30 years old • S1 Degree in Electrical/ Instrument Engineer • 5 years working experience in the field of Instrumentation engineer and Electrical design • Proven knowledge of Electrical Instrumentation equipment • Familiar with Programmable Logic Control (PLC) and Distributable Control System (DCS) and trouble shoot Commissioning • Ability to communicate in English • Willing to be assigned to the remote location • Contract for 6 months and will be extended after 6 month will depend on our Client actual needs and the work performance Field Cost Estimator (2-21150) Requirements: • Willing to be located and working in jobsite at Tembagapura, Papua. • Contract based for 6 months (contract will be reviewed per 6 months based on the performance and needs) • Education background is Undergraduate (S1) as a Mechanical Engineer or Civil Engineer from reputable university. • Have working experience for 2-5 years in estimating project budget from start until completion of the project (man-hours, material and equipment). • Have knowledge and can operate computer software: WinEst (cost estimate), AutoCAD, Primavera and Ms. Office. An attractive remuneration package commensurate with experiences and qualifications will be offered to the qualified candidate Only qualified candidate should apply, please send your applications with CV and recent photograph to: resumes@...| 17577|17577|2008-06-13 00:07:27|TDPOPP@aol.com|USCG Eagle on the west coast|USCG Eagle, a three masted steel Barque that is used as a training ship by the Coast Guard Academy is visiting the West Coast. The web cam at the Maritime Museum in Astoria, Oregon shows it well. Hopefully this weekend you'll see me on the deck touring the ship. _http://www.crmm.org/wx/popup.htm_ (http://www.crmm.org/wx/popup.htm) Not a Origami boat, but one heck of Steel Sailing ship. Schedule for Summer 2008 June 12 – 16 Astoria, Ore. June 27 – 30 Victoria, British Columbia July 3 – 7 Tacoma, Wash. July 23 – 28 San Francisco Aug. 1 – 4 Los Angeles Aug. 8 – 11 San Diego Aug. 15 – 18 Los Angeles Aug. 20 – 25 San Diego Sept. 11 – 13 Panama City, Panama Tom Popp - KA0TP **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17578|17514|2008-06-13 03:10:00|peter_d_wiley|Re: steel mast size|My take on it: if you have a 'conventional' bermudan rig, and you care more about resale than usability, buy a mast extrusion or used aluminium mast. If you want to go sailing, and you can afford steel, use steel. Weight difference may not be worth considering. I'm always amused by the people who solemnly caution about weight aloft and windage, all the while using roller furling forestays. Martin, if you can get the steel at a price you can afford, get it. Don't be put off by resale. I, personally, wouldn't be put off by a steel mast when looking at a boat. As for aluminium tube versus steel tube, you're going to be paying 3X the price for 6061 which has better structural qualities than 5053 or 5056, the heat affected zones are only going to be 85% the strength of the parent material, the weight is going to be almost identical to a sched 10 steel mast. Lot easier to weld fittings to the steel mast. If it ever rusts too badly, which it probably won't, you can buy 2 more before you get to the original cost of an aluminium mast. There was a big ferro Colin Archer design in port recently - it had galvanised steel masts more than 15 years old, and still in perfect condition. I'm planning on using sched 10 steel tube myself. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > > > In my opinion, I would do everything I could to get an aluminum mast. I > think the cost of a new blank aluminum mast, aluminum tube or preferably a > used mast with the extra gear on it is worth it. It's hard to think of > anything that would reduce the resale value of a boat more than having a > steel mast and I hate the idea of the extra weight up the mast. It has > been a long time since I was looking for a mast, but I am sure deals are > still available. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of martin demers > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:05 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > > > I also shopped for aluminium but it is far too expensive compare to steel, I > dont think it would be smart to start buying rigging and equipment for more > than I paid for my boat , it is a old 35ft steel hull from the '60s > > after the boat is fixed and I have experience sailing it and when I will get > more experience to decide more exactly what I prefer for equipment, than I > think it will be worthed to buy some more expensive rigging > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: peter_d_wiley@... > > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:58:11 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > > > > I was talking to Tom some time ago and would have to check the details > > but IIRC Tom said that you could swap to 5" sched 10 steel pipe > > instead of 5" sched 40 aluminium pipe which is the spec for a Gazelle > > with junk or gaff rig. There was a slight weight penalty but not a > > lot, and a great saving in materials cost. > > > > As for new versus used, if there was any doubt about the quality I'd > > go for new. A mast isn't really a place to be cutting costs at the > > expense of quality. What lengths can you get it in? Each weld joint > > needs to be done carefully, with a backing sleeve and full penetration > > welds. With new material you can probably get away with a single join > > depending on the mast height. > > > > If you can get 6" OD by 1/8" wall at a good price, your penalty is a > > mast that's 10% heavier than the 5 1/2" OD one, has somewhat more wind > > resistance (probably not a lot), but is stiffer. Euler's formula > > again. If you want to know how much stiffer, I'll dig the details out. > > I may anyway, as a few numbers help. > > > > As for junk rig masts, a lot of them are unstayed so have to be a lot > > thicker to minimise whip in a seaway. > > > > Another thing to be aware of is that a deck stepped mast is not as > > stiff in column as a keel stepped one. The keel stepped mast is > > considered to be a column with one fixed end and one pinned end; a > > deck stepped mast is pinned/pinned. A really good, h/duty tabernackle > > type base on the deck, fixed thru to the hull, gives the same effect > > as a keel stepped mast. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , martin demers > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> I found some, but it is new material wich is much more expensive > > than used steel at the scrap yard, > >> > >> by the way concerning the size, I noticed from pictures that mast on > > junk rigs seems bigger than on conventionnal rigging > >> > >> Martin > >> ________________________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>> From: tazmannm@ > >>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:48:00 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > >>> > >>> > >>> Instead of 5-1/2" tube try 5" sch 10 pipe measurement would be > > about 5-1/2" > >>> OD > >>> > >>> On 6/9/08, martin demers> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Peter, > >>>> > >>>> I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is > > not a > >>>> common size. > >>>> > >>>> Martin. > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>>>> From: peter_d_wiley@ > >>>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 > >>>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> No it won't. > >>>>> > >>>>> To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract the ID > >>>>> from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. > >>>>> > >>>>> For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > >>>>> > >>>>> 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. > >>>>> > >>>>> For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > >>>>> > >>>>> 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. > >>>>> > >>>>> Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. > >>>>> > >>>>> In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't > >>>>> have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses > > masts ans > >>>>> IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and > >>>>> materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, > > he has > >>>>> the engineering data. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'll look it up if you like... > >>>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , martin demers > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> will the difference make a big difference? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Martin. > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>>>>>> From: gary.lucas@ > >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Gary H. Lucas > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Tom Mann"> > >>>>>>> To:> > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Martin > >>>>>>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight > >>>>>>>> difference > >>>>>>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall > >>>>>>>> Tom > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Brent, > >>>>>>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for > >>>>> the mast, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. > >>>>> steel tube at > >>>>>>>>> 65 cents a pound > >>>>>>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at > >>>>> another > >>>>>>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. > >>>>>>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 > >>>>> 1/2in > >>>>>>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 > >>>>>>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Thanks, Martin. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>>>>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>>>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> __________________________________________________________ > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> __________________________________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1495 - Release Date: 6/10/2008 > 5:11 PM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17579|17514|2008-06-13 07:23:30|Paul Wilson|Re: steel mast size|I agree with you Peter, if you could get a steel mast and it was the difference between sailing or not sailing then definitely go for the steel. The important thing is to get sailing. I don't, however, think that resale value and usability are exclusive of each other. All things considered, properly made, both steel and aluminum masts will work just fine. Why would an aluminum mast be less usable? I still think an aluminum mast would have a much higher resale value to a boat so therefore my first choice. My main point is to spend the time and effort to find an aluminum mast and then go for steel (or wood) if the aluminum isn't available or affordable. My used aluminum mast was a great deal when I got it. I was dirt poor, scraping pennies together at the time but lucky to stumble on one. $3000 for 44 foot mast, boom, and all the fittings, including the turnbuckles. This was in about 1989 or 90. There are many more boats about now than then so I suspect deals are still available. My mast was bought in California and was trailered up to British Columbia. The guy who did it, went there and toured the boat yards, bought 5 used masts and shipped them all home for the same cost of shipping one. He kept two for his boat then sold the extras off (lucky me) to pay for his trip and the family vacation. Anything is possible. The thing I don't understand is that when I read the postings, it seems like people seem to be taking steel as a first option when in my opinion it is definitely a second (although good) choice. As for strength, I would never weld the aluminum mast (I would never trust it to hold anything) so comparing the strength of welds of the aluminum to the welds of steel isn't a factor. My aluminum mast is sleeved, screwed, and the fittings are bolted. No welds. Easy to make and easy to repair or modify. As for weight, your point is well taken. You are right, roller furling weighs a ton. Maybe I am too concerned about weight but it could be that having heavy gear like roller furling is all the more reason that saving weight aloft is important. Every little bit helps. I know of one guy who had a 49 foot steel Spencer and he said he used to often do 200 mile days until he put a roller furler on his boat. The weight and windage slowed him down. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter_d_wiley Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 7:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size My take on it: if you have a 'conventional' bermudan rig, and you care more about resale than usability, buy a mast extrusion or used aluminium mast. If you want to go sailing, and you can afford steel, use steel. Weight difference may not be worth considering. I'm always amused by the people who solemnly caution about weight aloft and windage, all the while using roller furling forestays. Martin, if you can get the steel at a price you can afford, get it. Don't be put off by resale. I, personally, wouldn't be put off by a steel mast when looking at a boat. As for aluminium tube versus steel tube, you're going to be paying 3X the price for 6061 which has better structural qualities than 5053 or 5056, the heat affected zones are only going to be 85% the strength of the parent material, the weight is going to be almost identical to a sched 10 steel mast. Lot easier to weld fittings to the steel mast. If it ever rusts too badly, which it probably won't, you can buy 2 more before you get to the original cost of an aluminium mast. There was a big ferro Colin Archer design in port recently - it had galvanised steel masts more than 15 years old, and still in perfect condition. I'm planning on using sched 10 steel tube myself. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > > > In my opinion, I would do everything I could to get an aluminum mast. I > think the cost of a new blank aluminum mast, aluminum tube or preferably a > used mast with the extra gear on it is worth it. It's hard to think of > anything that would reduce the resale value of a boat more than having a > steel mast and I hate the idea of the extra weight up the mast. It has > been a long time since I was looking for a mast, but I am sure deals are > still available. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of martin demers > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:05 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > > > I also shopped for aluminium but it is far too expensive compare to steel, I > dont think it would be smart to start buying rigging and equipment for more > than I paid for my boat , it is a old 35ft steel hull from the '60s > > after the boat is fixed and I have experience sailing it and when I will get > more experience to decide more exactly what I prefer for equipment, than I > think it will be worthed to buy some more expensive rigging > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: peter_d_wiley@... > > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:58:11 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > > > > I was talking to Tom some time ago and would have to check the details > > but IIRC Tom said that you could swap to 5" sched 10 steel pipe > > instead of 5" sched 40 aluminium pipe which is the spec for a Gazelle > > with junk or gaff rig. There was a slight weight penalty but not a > > lot, and a great saving in materials cost. > > > > As for new versus used, if there was any doubt about the quality I'd > > go for new. A mast isn't really a place to be cutting costs at the > > expense of quality. What lengths can you get it in? Each weld joint > > needs to be done carefully, with a backing sleeve and full penetration > > welds. With new material you can probably get away with a single join > > depending on the mast height. > > > > If you can get 6" OD by 1/8" wall at a good price, your penalty is a > > mast that's 10% heavier than the 5 1/2" OD one, has somewhat more wind > > resistance (probably not a lot), but is stiffer. Euler's formula > > again. If you want to know how much stiffer, I'll dig the details out. > > I may anyway, as a few numbers help. > > > > As for junk rig masts, a lot of them are unstayed so have to be a lot > > thicker to minimise whip in a seaway. > > > > Another thing to be aware of is that a deck stepped mast is not as > > stiff in column as a keel stepped one. The keel stepped mast is > > considered to be a column with one fixed end and one pinned end; a > > deck stepped mast is pinned/pinned. A really good, h/duty tabernackle > > type base on the deck, fixed thru to the hull, gives the same effect > > as a keel stepped mast. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , martin demers > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> I found some, but it is new material wich is much more expensive > > than used steel at the scrap yard, > >> > >> by the way concerning the size, I noticed from pictures that mast on > > junk rigs seems bigger than on conventionnal rigging > >> > >> Martin > >> ________________________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>> From: tazmannm@ > >>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:48:00 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > >>> > >>> > >>> Instead of 5-1/2" tube try 5" sch 10 pipe measurement would be > > about 5-1/2" > >>> OD > >>> > >>> On 6/9/08, martin demers> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Peter, > >>>> > >>>> I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is > > not a > >>>> common size. > >>>> > >>>> Martin. > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>>>> From: peter_d_wiley@ > >>>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 > >>>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> No it won't. > >>>>> > >>>>> To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract the ID > >>>>> from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. > >>>>> > >>>>> For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > >>>>> > >>>>> 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. > >>>>> > >>>>> For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > >>>>> > >>>>> 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. > >>>>> > >>>>> Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. > >>>>> > >>>>> In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't > >>>>> have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses > > masts ans > >>>>> IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and > >>>>> materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, > > he has > >>>>> the engineering data. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'll look it up if you like... > >>>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , martin demers > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> will the difference make a big difference? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Martin. > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>>>>>> From: gary.lucas@ > >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Gary H. Lucas > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Tom Mann"> > >>>>>>> To:> > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Martin > >>>>>>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much weight > >>>>>>>> difference > >>>>>>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall > >>>>>>>> Tom > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Brent, > >>>>>>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for > >>>>> the mast, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. > >>>>> steel tube at > >>>>>>>>> 65 cents a pound > >>>>>>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at > >>>>> another > >>>>>>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. > >>>>>>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to use 5 > >>>>> 1/2in > >>>>>>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 > >>>>>>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Thanks, Martin. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>>>>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>>>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> __________________________________________________________ > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> __________________________________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1495 - Release Date: 6/10/2008 > 5:11 PM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1500 - Release Date: 6/12/2008 4:58 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17580|17514|2008-06-13 12:57:08|martin demers|Re: steel mast size|I intend to make my mast myself, if I use steel it will cost a fraction of a $3000.00 aluminium used mast, even if it is a bargain for an aluminium mast, I cant afford it now. So if I want to go sailing... Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:23:20 +1200 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > I agree with you Peter, if you could get a steel mast and it was the > difference between sailing or not sailing then definitely go for the steel. > The important thing is to get sailing. > > I don't, however, think that resale value and usability are exclusive of > each other. All things considered, properly made, both steel and aluminum > masts will work just fine. Why would an aluminum mast be less usable? I > still think an aluminum mast would have a much higher resale value to a boat > so therefore my first choice. My main point is to spend the time and effort > to find an aluminum mast and then go for steel (or wood) if the aluminum > isn't available or affordable. My used aluminum mast was a great deal when > I got it. I was dirt poor, scraping pennies together at the time but lucky > to stumble on one. $3000 for 44 foot mast, boom, and all the fittings, > including the turnbuckles. This was in about 1989 or 90. There are many > more boats about now than then so I suspect deals are still available. My > mast was bought in California and was trailered up to British Columbia. The > guy who did it, went there and toured the boat yards, bought 5 used masts > and shipped them all home for the same cost of shipping one. He kept two > for his boat then sold the extras off (lucky me) to pay for his trip and the > family vacation. Anything is possible. The thing I don't understand is > that when I read the postings, it seems like people seem to be taking steel > as a first option when in my opinion it is definitely a second (although > good) choice. > > As for strength, I would never weld the aluminum mast (I would never trust > it to hold anything) so comparing the strength of welds of the aluminum to > the welds of steel isn't a factor. My aluminum mast is sleeved, screwed, > and the fittings are bolted. No welds. Easy to make and easy to repair or > modify. As for weight, your point is well taken. You are right, roller > furling weighs a ton. Maybe I am too concerned about weight but it could be > that having heavy gear like roller furling is all the more reason that > saving weight aloft is important. Every little bit helps. I know of one > guy who had a 49 foot steel Spencer and he said he used to often do 200 mile > days until he put a roller furler on his boat. The weight and windage > slowed him down. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 7:10 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > My take on it: if you have a 'conventional' bermudan rig, and you care > more about resale than usability, buy a mast extrusion or used > aluminium mast. > > If you want to go sailing, and you can afford steel, use steel. > > Weight difference may not be worth considering. I'm always amused by > the people who solemnly caution about weight aloft and windage, all > the while using roller furling forestays. > > Martin, if you can get the steel at a price you can afford, get it. > Don't be put off by resale. I, personally, wouldn't be put off by a > steel mast when looking at a boat. > > As for aluminium tube versus steel tube, you're going to be paying 3X > the price for 6061 which has better structural qualities than 5053 or > 5056, the heat affected zones are only going to be 85% the strength of > the parent material, the weight is going to be almost identical to a > sched 10 steel mast. Lot easier to weld fittings to the steel mast. If > it ever rusts too badly, which it probably won't, you can buy 2 more > before you get to the original cost of an aluminium mast. > > There was a big ferro Colin Archer design in port recently - it had > galvanised steel masts more than 15 years old, and still in perfect > condition. > > I'm planning on using sched 10 steel tube myself. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: >> >> Hi Martin, >> >> >> >> In my opinion, I would do everything I could to get an aluminum > mast. I >> think the cost of a new blank aluminum mast, aluminum tube or > preferably a >> used mast with the extra gear on it is worth it. It's hard to think of >> anything that would reduce the resale value of a boat more than having a >> steel mast and I hate the idea of the extra weight up the mast. It has >> been a long time since I was looking for a mast, but I am sure deals are >> still available. >> >> >> >> Cheers, Paul >> >> >> >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On >> Behalf Of martin demers >> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:05 PM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size >> >> >> >> >> I also shopped for aluminium but it is far too expensive compare to > steel, I >> dont think it would be smart to start buying rigging and equipment > for more >> than I paid for my boat , it is a old 35ft steel hull from the '60s >> >> after the boat is fixed and I have experience sailing it and when I > will get >> more experience to decide more exactly what I prefer for equipment, > than I >> think it will be worthed to buy some more expensive rigging >> >> Martin >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>> From: peter_d_wiley@... >>> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:58:11 +0000 >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size >>> >>> >>> I was talking to Tom some time ago and would have to check the details >>> but IIRC Tom said that you could swap to 5" sched 10 steel pipe >>> instead of 5" sched 40 aluminium pipe which is the spec for a Gazelle >>> with junk or gaff rig. There was a slight weight penalty but not a >>> lot, and a great saving in materials cost. >>> >>> As for new versus used, if there was any doubt about the quality I'd >>> go for new. A mast isn't really a place to be cutting costs at the >>> expense of quality. What lengths can you get it in? Each weld joint >>> needs to be done carefully, with a backing sleeve and full penetration >>> welds. With new material you can probably get away with a single join >>> depending on the mast height. >>> >>> If you can get 6" OD by 1/8" wall at a good price, your penalty is a >>> mast that's 10% heavier than the 5 1/2" OD one, has somewhat more wind >>> resistance (probably not a lot), but is stiffer. Euler's formula >>> again. If you want to know how much stiffer, I'll dig the details out. >>> I may anyway, as a few numbers help. >>> >>> As for junk rig masts, a lot of them are unstayed so have to be a lot >>> thicker to minimise whip in a seaway. >>> >>> Another thing to be aware of is that a deck stepped mast is not as >>> stiff in column as a keel stepped one. The keel stepped mast is >>> considered to be a column with one fixed end and one pinned end; a >>> deck stepped mast is pinned/pinned. A really good, h/duty tabernackle >>> type base on the deck, fixed thru to the hull, gives the same effect >>> as a keel stepped mast. >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> , martin demers >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I found some, but it is new material wich is much more expensive >>> than used steel at the scrap yard, >>>> >>>> by the way concerning the size, I noticed from pictures that mast on >>> junk rigs seems bigger than on conventionnal rigging >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> ________________________________ >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> >>>>> From: tazmannm@ >>>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:48:00 -0700 >>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Instead of 5-1/2" tube try 5" sch 10 pipe measurement would be >>> about 5-1/2" >>>>> OD >>>>> >>>>> On 6/9/08, martin demers> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter, >>>>>> >>>>>> I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is >>> not a >>>>>> common size. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin. >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >>>>>>> From: peter_d_wiley@ >>>>>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 >>>>>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No it won't. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract > the ID >>>>>>> from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't >>>>>>> have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses >>> masts ans >>>>>>> IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and >>>>>>> materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, >>> he has >>>>>>> the engineering data. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll look it up if you like... >>>>>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> , martin demers >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> will the difference make a big difference? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin. >>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >>>>>>>>> From: gary.lucas@ >>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gary H. Lucas >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Tom Mann"> >>>>>>>>> To:> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much > weight >>>>>>>>>> difference >>>>>>>>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall >>>>>>>>>> Tom >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brent, >>>>>>>>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for >>>>>>> the mast, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. >>>>>>> steel tube at >>>>>>>>>>> 65 cents a pound >>>>>>>>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at >>>>>>> another >>>>>>>>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. >>>>>>>>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to > use 5 >>>>>>> 1/2in >>>>>>>>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 >>>>>>>>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Martin. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >>>>>>>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>>>>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1495 - Release Date: > 6/10/2008 >> 5:11 PM >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1500 - Release Date: 6/12/2008 > 4:58 PM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17581|17514|2008-06-13 14:29:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: steel mast size|On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:23:20PM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > > My used aluminum mast was a great deal when > I got it. I was dirt poor, scraping pennies together at the time but lucky > to stumble on one. $3000 for 44 foot mast, boom, and all the fittings, > including the turnbuckles. This was in about 1989 or 90. There are many > more boats about now than then so I suspect deals are still available. I broke a mast back in 2000; about a month later, while powering up the Intracoastal Waterway, I ran across a 50' mast from a boat that had just been scrapped (I needed 44'.) Came with rigging, winches (!), turnbuckles, and even halyards... for $500. The winches alone were worth more than that. All I did was ask around the local boatyards, and that deal was actually offered to me by the guy who owned the yard; he'd heard from someone else that I was looking for one. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17582|17582|2008-06-13 18:51:52|tazmannusa|Teds photo album|Hello Ted I was checking out the photos and went to your photos and the folder is empty. Did you delete them or is yahoo groups having problems? Tom| 17583|17583|2008-06-14 09:34:43|Wally Paine|Steel tube.|Hello all, Various people have made reference to Sch 10 or Sch 40 tube. I have gathered that it is short hand fot Schedule 10 etc but what does it mean in terms of carbon content, wall thickness or whatever? Is it a New World classification or is it used in Europe also? Would someone be kind enough to make these muddy waters crystal. Wally Paine| 17584|17583|2008-06-14 10:40:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: Steel tube.|On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 01:34:40PM -0000, Wally Paine wrote: > Hello all, > > Various people have made reference to Sch 10 or Sch 40 tube. I have > gathered that it is short hand fot Schedule 10 etc but what does it > mean in terms of carbon content, wall thickness or whatever? It's wall thickness vs. total diameter, as I recall - based on the max pressure that a given pipe can take. Here's a random comparison chart that popped up in Google: http://www.eci-ndt.com/tb_p_13a.htm > Is it a New World classification or is it used in Europe also? Heh - apt description for this purpose. Yeah, it's New World only as far as I know. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17585|17583|2008-06-14 13:00:21|Tom Mann|Re: Steel tube.|Wally No the Sch 10 , 40 , 80 ect. is just the wall thickness in pipe , Here in the US the type of steel is a different numbering like A36 A45 ect. + a lot of others. Tom On 6/14/08, Wally Paine wrote: > > Hello all, > > Various people have made reference to Sch 10 or Sch 40 tube. I have > gathered that it is short hand fot Schedule 10 etc but what does it > mean in terms of carbon content, wall thickness or whatever? > > Is it a New World classification or is it used in Europe also? > > Would someone be kind enough to make these muddy waters crystal. > > Wally Paine > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17586|17514|2008-06-14 17:02:18|Paul Wilson|New Alternative Energy Gadgets|Check this out. I am a skeptic but the videos look like it may be legit. The bottom video shows a new kind of fuel cell aimed at the mass market. http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/ Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17587|17514|2008-06-14 17:19:26|Paul Wilson|Re: New Alternative Energy Gadgets|I will reply to myself...its Sunday morning and the coffee is affecting me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen. I guess the skeptic in me may be right but the fuel cell is interesting all the same..there is also a yahoo group on oxyhydrogen if anybody wants to pursue it further. Sorry if I am wasting your time.. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 9:02 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] New Alternative Energy Gadgets Check this out. I am a skeptic but the videos look like it may be legit. The bottom video shows a new kind of fuel cell aimed at the mass market. http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/ Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17588|7932|2008-06-14 17:34:21|brentswain38|alternator welding|I just received a way to avoid frying the diodes on the alternator welder. Just put a 60 to 100 watt 120 volt lightbulb across the output leads, from the stinger to the ground. Doesn't affect the welding noticeably, but absorbs the power when you break the arc. Brent| 17589|17514|2008-06-15 11:15:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: New Alternative Energy Gadgets|On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 09:19:34AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > I will reply to myself...its Sunday morning and the coffee is affecting me. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car and > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen. > > I guess the skeptic in me may be right but the fuel cell is interesting all > the same..there is also a yahoo group on oxyhydrogen if anybody wants to > pursue it further. Well, the "we'll sell you a kit to crack water" scam has been around for a long, long time now - its success is based on leveraging "what everybody knows" (i.e., you can burn hydrogen and oxygen) against a not-so-well-known fact of physics (cracking that bond takes a lot more energy than you get back.) The only place where it's succeded is in cracking the bond between suckers and their money. The latest version is a guy claiming "over unity" (meaning that the output energy is greater than the input) results for burning salt water. Supposedly, he's managed to pump RF energy into ocean water in such a way that it weakens the molecular bonds between H and O, so the stuff can now be set on fire - in fact, there are demos of this on YouTube (search for 'John Kanzias'.) I note, without any suprise, the absence of A) a calorimeter in that flame and B) a power meter on that RF generator. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17590|17590|2008-06-15 13:32:25|Gary Prebble|Tiller Pilot|...I have the ST 2000 Tiller Pilot. Despite calibrating it for my area (49 Deg) and setting tiller damping to max it still "S" wanders. I suppose this is the norm from what I hear about tiller pilots but in the manual a picture is shown with the "S" wandering pattern and then beside this pic there is another showing a straight line course AFTER one makes the calibration changes on the unit. However, after calibration I still bet the wandering. Anyone have one of these? Thanks... Gary| 17591|17514|2008-06-15 14:04:16|Aaron Williams|Re: New Alternative Energy Gadgets|Ben Yahoo group called watercar has all kinds of gadets and free plans for just about all of the designs the are being sold. Aaron --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] New Alternative Energy Gadgets To: "Origami Boat list" Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 6:30 AM On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 09:19:34AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > I will reply to myself...its Sunday morning and the coffee is affecting me. > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Water-fuelled_ car and > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Oxyhydrogen. > > I guess the skeptic in me may be right but the fuel cell is interesting all > the same..there is also a yahoo group on oxyhydrogen if anybody wants to > pursue it further. Well, the "we'll sell you a kit to crack water" scam has been around for a long, long time now - its success is based on leveraging "what everybody knows" (i.e., you can burn hydrogen and oxygen) against a not-so-well- known fact of physics (cracking that bond takes a lot more energy than you get back.) The only place where it's succeded is in cracking the bond between suckers and their money. The latest version is a guy claiming "over unity" (meaning that the output energy is greater than the input) results for burning salt water. Supposedly, he's managed to pump RF energy into ocean water in such a way that it weakens the molecular bonds between H and O, so the stuff can now be set on fire - in fact, there are demos of this on YouTube (search for 'John Kanzias'.) I note, without any suprise, the absence of A) a calorimeter in that flame and B) a power meter on that RF generator. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17592|17590|2008-06-15 16:13:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Tiller Pilot|Hi Gary, I had the same problem with a cheap Navico tiller pilot . The flux sensor inside the unit is too close to the steel hull and gets affected by the magnetic field from the hull. If you had a unit with a remote flux sensor it would work better. They are a lot more money, however. I took the flux valve out of the unit and remote mounted it up on the stern rail using shielded wire in an aluminum capsule I found from an old flux sensor. Any waterproof housing would do. I wired the cable through a trailer connector. I am an avionics engineer but I think it is possible for anyone with basic electronic/electrical knowledge who understands shielding. It was not easy with the gimbal assembly getting everything to fit. Since doing my mods it works great. Do you have yours steering the tiller or the trim tab? In flat water it should steer dead straight. The factory settings should normally be about right. You can get an S pattern from either too high dampening or too little. One way the boat responds sluggishly, the other way it over-corrects. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Prebble Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 5:32 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Tiller Pilot ...I have the ST 2000 Tiller Pilot. Despite calibrating it for my area (49 Deg) and setting tiller damping to max it still "S" wanders. I suppose this is the norm from what I hear about tiller pilots but in the manual a picture is shown with the "S" wandering pattern and then beside this pic there is another showing a straight line course AFTER one makes the calibration changes on the unit. However, after calibration I still bet the wandering. Anyone have one of these? Thanks... Gary No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1503 - Release Date: 6/14/2008 6:02 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17593|17590|2008-06-15 17:41:34|Gary Prebble|Re: Tiller Pilot|Hi Paul... Re 1st paragraph... heh, heh, heh.... Re 2nd paragraph: The Tiller Pilot is set up to steer the trim tab. I could play around with settings some more such as mid range tiller dampening but I think you are right about the interference. Thanks Paul... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Hi Gary, > > > > I had the same problem with a cheap Navico tiller pilot . The flux sensor > inside the unit is too close to the steel hull and gets affected by the > magnetic field from the hull. If you had a unit with a remote flux sensor > it would work better. They are a lot more money, however. I took the flux > valve out of the unit and remote mounted it up on the stern rail using > shielded wire in an aluminum capsule I found from an old flux sensor. Any > waterproof housing would do. I wired the cable through a trailer connector. > I am an avionics engineer but I think it is possible for anyone with basic > electronic/electrical knowledge who understands shielding. It was not easy > with the gimbal assembly getting everything to fit. Since doing my mods it > works great. > > > > Do you have yours steering the tiller or the trim tab? In flat water it > should steer dead straight. The factory settings should normally be about > right. You can get an S pattern from either too high dampening or too > little. One way the boat responds sluggishly, the other way it > over-corrects. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gary Prebble > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 5:32 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Tiller Pilot > > > > ...I have the ST 2000 Tiller Pilot. Despite calibrating it for my area > (49 Deg) and setting tiller damping to max it still "S" wanders. I > suppose this is the norm from what I hear about tiller pilots but in > the manual a picture is shown with the "S" wandering pattern and then > beside this pic there is another showing a straight line course AFTER > one makes the calibration changes on the unit. However, after > calibration I still bet the wandering. Anyone have one of these? > > Thanks... Gary > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1503 - Release Date: 6/14/2008 > 6:02 PM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17594|17514|2008-06-15 22:37:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: New Alternative Energy Gadgets|On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 11:04:10AM -0700, Aaron Williams wrote: > Ben > Yahoo group called watercar has all kinds of gadets and free plans for > just about all of the designs the are being sold. Thanks for the info, Aaron. Have you taken a look at the description of the group? `` The theory is simple: Liquid water is split into hydrogen and oxygen and then the two gases are recombined to form water vapor. This essentially could be the elusive car that runs on water. '' Note the "could be" part. If it was possible, the demonstration would be simple and undeniable - but yet, no one has come forth with one. It's certainly possible to talk about it, to spin (unsupported) theories about it, and to talk it to death; no surprises there, people have been beating their heads, uselessly, against the whole "perpetuum mobile" phantasm forever. Their reasons for trying are obvious; the uselesness of doing so isn't - to anyone who doesn't understand basic science. This page explains it rather well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion In other words, it's all... water vapor. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17595|17514|2008-06-15 23:06:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: New Alternative Energy Gadgets|On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 10:37:37PM -0400, Benjamin Okopnik wrote: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion > > In other words, it's all... water vapor. Here's another Wikipedia link, specifically about Stanley Meyer's "Water Fuel Cell" - which is the gadget that gets all these "watercar" folks so excited. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyers%27_water_fuel_cell I quote: `` ...if the device operated as claimed, the combustion cycle would start and end in the same state while extracting usable energy, thereby violating the first law of thermodynamics and allowing operation as a perpetual motion machine. Meyer's claims about the Water Fuel Cell and the car that it powered were found to be fraudulent by an Ohio court in 1996. '' -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17596|17514|2008-06-15 23:39:31|peter_d_wiley|Re: steel mast size|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I agree with you Peter, if you could get a steel mast and it was the > difference between sailing or not sailing then definitely go for the steel. > The important thing is to get sailing. > > > > I don't, however, think that resale value and usability are exclusive of > each other. All things considered, properly made, both steel and aluminum > masts will work just fine. Why would an aluminum mast be less usable? OK, what I meant was, 'less usable for the same price'. The mechanical characteristics of steel are a lot better than aluminium in pretty much all respects; aluminium wins on corrosion resistance and weight generally. Thin wall aluminium masts are grossly weaker than Sched 40 aluminium pipe which is about the same as sched 10 steel, but marginally lighter, at 3X or more the cost. It's not real practical to go under sched 10 in steel as there isn't sufficient material for a corrosion allowance IMO, whereas with aluminium this isn't an issue. I > still think an aluminum mast would have a much higher resale value to a boat > so therefore my first choice. My main point is to spend the time and effort > to find an aluminum mast and then go for steel (or wood) if the aluminum > isn't available or affordable. My used aluminum mast was a great deal when > I got it. I was dirt poor, scraping pennies together at the time but lucky > to stumble on one. $3000 for 44 foot mast, boom, and all the fittings, > including the turnbuckles. This was in about 1989 or 90. Do you realise that, toady, that amount is the equiv of $7500? Multiply your $3000 by 1.05 then than amount by 1.05 etc for each year from then to now. I think 5% inflation is pretty conservative. There are many > more boats about now than then so I suspect deals are still available. My > mast was bought in California and was trailered up to British Columbia. The > guy who did it, went there and toured the boat yards, bought 5 used masts > and shipped them all home for the same cost of shipping one. He kept two > for his boat then sold the extras off (lucky me) to pay for his trip and the > family vacation. Anything is possible. The thing I don't understand is > that when I read the postings, it seems like people seem to be taking steel > as a first option when in my opinion it is definitely a second (although > good) choice. Here, we're not comparing apples with apples. You're comparing a used mast and fittings with new tube prices. I agree, if you can find a really good deal on a used stick, buy it. Same for motors et al. I picked up an anchor winch for $70. Doesn't mean anyone else is going to do it too. Depends on where you are and what your time frame is. I've had to let some deals go by because I didn't have the storage or money when they came along. > As for strength, I would never weld the aluminum mast (I would never trust > it to hold anything) so comparing the strength of welds of the aluminum to > the welds of steel isn't a factor. My aluminum mast is sleeved, screwed, > and the fittings are bolted. No welds. Easy to make and easy to repair or > modify. OK, we're talking about different things here. You're referring to a conventional aluminium mast, which is a thin-walled extrusion. I wouldn't weld anything to one of those, either, under almost any imaginable circumstance (though I did weld one back together over a backing sleeve once, but it was my toy daysailer and I didn't really care). I was referring to Sched 40 aluminium tube. That has sufficient wall thickness to be easily weldable using any decent inert gas process, but the welds aren't going to be as strong as the parent material. As for weight, your point is well taken. You are right, roller > furling weighs a ton. Maybe I am too concerned about weight but it could be > that having heavy gear like roller furling is all the more reason that > saving weight aloft is important. Every little bit helps. I know of one > guy who had a 49 foot steel Spencer and he said he used to often do 200 mile > days until he put a roller furler on his boat. The weight and windage > slowed him down. Wasn't the weight that slowed him down, it was the windage, I'd bet. The only thing that weight aloft does is slow down the roll period and decrease stability, depending on the yacht design. Slowing the roll period may well be a desirable thing for some boats. More weight aloft actually helps to prevent knockdowns - more inertia.| 17597|17514|2008-06-15 23:43:42|peter_d_wiley|Re: steel mast size|Just do it, Martin. Paul is 100% correct in what he says, but since you've already looked and know your budget, you'll be fine. The mechanical characteristics of the sched 10 steel tube will be more than adequate. I'll run the numbers through Tom Colvin's formula if you want to know the differences between the 6" stuff and the 5 1/2". Tip for painting the inside - get a mop, soak it in paint and drag it thru the tube a few times. Never tried this myself but it should work, assuming you can't get galvanised or pre-painted tube. Locally I can get pre-painted RHS and pipe but the paint is only on the outside. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > I intend to make my mast myself, if I use steel it will cost a fraction of a $3000.00 aluminium used mast, even if it is a bargain for an aluminium mast, I cant afford it now. So if I want to go sailing... > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: opusnz@... > > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:23:20 +1200 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > > > > I agree with you Peter, if you could get a steel mast and it was the > > difference between sailing or not sailing then definitely go for the steel. > > The important thing is to get sailing. > > > > I don't, however, think that resale value and usability are exclusive of > > each other. All things considered, properly made, both steel and aluminum > > masts will work just fine. Why would an aluminum mast be less usable? I > > still think an aluminum mast would have a much higher resale value to a boat > > so therefore my first choice. My main point is to spend the time and effort > > to find an aluminum mast and then go for steel (or wood) if the aluminum > > isn't available or affordable. My used aluminum mast was a great deal when > > I got it. I was dirt poor, scraping pennies together at the time but lucky > > to stumble on one. $3000 for 44 foot mast, boom, and all the fittings, > > including the turnbuckles. This was in about 1989 or 90. There are many > > more boats about now than then so I suspect deals are still available. My > > mast was bought in California and was trailered up to British Columbia. The > > guy who did it, went there and toured the boat yards, bought 5 used masts > > and shipped them all home for the same cost of shipping one. He kept two > > for his boat then sold the extras off (lucky me) to pay for his trip and the > > family vacation. Anything is possible. The thing I don't understand is > > that when I read the postings, it seems like people seem to be taking steel > > as a first option when in my opinion it is definitely a second (although > > good) choice. > > > > As for strength, I would never weld the aluminum mast (I would never trust > > it to hold anything) so comparing the strength of welds of the aluminum to > > the welds of steel isn't a factor. My aluminum mast is sleeved, screwed, > > and the fittings are bolted. No welds. Easy to make and easy to repair or > > modify. As for weight, your point is well taken. You are right, roller > > furling weighs a ton. Maybe I am too concerned about weight but it could be > > that having heavy gear like roller furling is all the more reason that > > saving weight aloft is important. Every little bit helps. I know of one > > guy who had a 49 foot steel Spencer and he said he used to often do 200 mile > > days until he put a roller furler on his boat. The weight and windage > > slowed him down. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 7:10 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > > My take on it: if you have a 'conventional' bermudan rig, and you care > > more about resale than usability, buy a mast extrusion or used > > aluminium mast. > > > > If you want to go sailing, and you can afford steel, use steel. > > > > Weight difference may not be worth considering. I'm always amused by > > the people who solemnly caution about weight aloft and windage, all > > the while using roller furling forestays. > > > > Martin, if you can get the steel at a price you can afford, get it. > > Don't be put off by resale. I, personally, wouldn't be put off by a > > steel mast when looking at a boat. > > > > As for aluminium tube versus steel tube, you're going to be paying 3X > > the price for 6061 which has better structural qualities than 5053 or > > 5056, the heat affected zones are only going to be 85% the strength of > > the parent material, the weight is going to be almost identical to a > > sched 10 steel mast. Lot easier to weld fittings to the steel mast. If > > it ever rusts too badly, which it probably won't, you can buy 2 more > > before you get to the original cost of an aluminium mast. > > > > There was a big ferro Colin Archer design in port recently - it had > > galvanised steel masts more than 15 years old, and still in perfect > > condition. > > > > I'm planning on using sched 10 steel tube myself. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > >> > >> Hi Martin, > >> > >> > >> > >> In my opinion, I would do everything I could to get an aluminum > > mast. I > >> think the cost of a new blank aluminum mast, aluminum tube or > > preferably a > >> used mast with the extra gear on it is worth it. It's hard to think of > >> anything that would reduce the resale value of a boat more than having a > >> steel mast and I hate the idea of the extra weight up the mast. It has > >> been a long time since I was looking for a mast, but I am sure deals are > >> still available. > >> > >> > >> > >> Cheers, Paul > >> > >> > >> > >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > ] On > >> Behalf Of martin demers > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:05 PM > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I also shopped for aluminium but it is far too expensive compare to > > steel, I > >> dont think it would be smart to start buying rigging and equipment > > for more > >> than I paid for my boat , it is a old 35ft steel hull from the '60s > >> > >> after the boat is fixed and I have experience sailing it and when I > > will get > >> more experience to decide more exactly what I prefer for equipment, > > than I > >> think it will be worthed to buy some more expensive rigging > >> > >> Martin > >> ________________________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>> From: peter_d_wiley@ > >>> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:58:11 +0000 > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > >>> > >>> > >>> I was talking to Tom some time ago and would have to check the details > >>> but IIRC Tom said that you could swap to 5" sched 10 steel pipe > >>> instead of 5" sched 40 aluminium pipe which is the spec for a Gazelle > >>> with junk or gaff rig. There was a slight weight penalty but not a > >>> lot, and a great saving in materials cost. > >>> > >>> As for new versus used, if there was any doubt about the quality I'd > >>> go for new. A mast isn't really a place to be cutting costs at the > >>> expense of quality. What lengths can you get it in? Each weld joint > >>> needs to be done carefully, with a backing sleeve and full penetration > >>> welds. With new material you can probably get away with a single join > >>> depending on the mast height. > >>> > >>> If you can get 6" OD by 1/8" wall at a good price, your penalty is a > >>> mast that's 10% heavier than the 5 1/2" OD one, has somewhat more wind > >>> resistance (probably not a lot), but is stiffer. Euler's formula > >>> again. If you want to know how much stiffer, I'll dig the details out. > >>> I may anyway, as a few numbers help. > >>> > >>> As for junk rig masts, a lot of them are unstayed so have to be a lot > >>> thicker to minimise whip in a seaway. > >>> > >>> Another thing to be aware of is that a deck stepped mast is not as > >>> stiff in column as a keel stepped one. The keel stepped mast is > >>> considered to be a column with one fixed end and one pinned end; a > >>> deck stepped mast is pinned/pinned. A really good, h/duty tabernackle > >>> type base on the deck, fixed thru to the hull, gives the same effect > >>> as a keel stepped mast. > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> , martin demers > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I found some, but it is new material wich is much more expensive > >>> than used steel at the scrap yard, > >>>> > >>>> by the way concerning the size, I noticed from pictures that mast on > >>> junk rigs seems bigger than on conventionnal rigging > >>>> > >>>> Martin > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >> > >>>>> From: tazmannm@ > >>>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:48:00 -0700 > >>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Instead of 5-1/2" tube try 5" sch 10 pipe measurement would be > >>> about 5-1/2" > >>>>> OD > >>>>> > >>>>> On 6/9/08, martin demers> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Peter, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is > >>> not a > >>>>>> common size. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Martin. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > >>>>>>> From: peter_d_wiley@ > >>>>>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 > >>>>>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> No it won't. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract > > the ID > >>>>>>> from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't > >>>>>>> have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses > >>> masts ans > >>>>>>> IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and > >>>>>>> materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, > >>> he has > >>>>>>> the engineering data. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'll look it up if you like... > >>>>>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> , martin demers > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> will the difference make a big difference? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Martin. > >>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > >>>>>>>>> From: gary.lucas@ > >>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Gary H. Lucas > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> From: "Tom Mann"> > >>>>>>>>> To:> > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Martin > >>>>>>>>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much > > weight > >>>>>>>>>> difference > >>>>>>>>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall > >>>>>>>>>> Tom > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Brent, > >>>>>>>>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for > >>>>>>> the mast, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. > >>>>>>> steel tube at > >>>>>>>>>>> 65 cents a pound > >>>>>>>>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at > >>>>>>> another > >>>>>>>>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. > >>>>>>>>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to > > use 5 > >>>>>>> 1/2in > >>>>>>>>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 > >>>>>>>>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Martin. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > >>>>>>>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>>>>>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> __________________________________________________________ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > >>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> __________________________________________________________ > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG. > >> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1495 - Release Date: > > 6/10/2008 > >> 5:11 PM > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1500 - Release Date: 6/12/2008 > > 4:58 PM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 17598|17598|2008-06-16 05:29:22|Wally Paine|Schedule ?? for steel or Al tube.|Thanks for yor replies. All is now clear. Wally Paine| 17599|17599|2008-06-16 08:46:37|Tom|Riveted Steel Lifeboat any good?|Local Craigslist has a 30' Steel lifeboat for sale cheap. Priced about right for basic hull to start building in. (15% of new material cost.) Anyone know if Riveted boats hold up worth a darn? I remember a "Cruising World" magazine article from a few years back and the writer had one as his first boat. Was having to dive and epoxy nails as temporary fillers for lost rivets.... Also have an interesting Ketch locally, made from one, but the builder died and the new owner hasn't sailed it much yet. Any out there with some experience of Riveted boats? Tom - KA0TP| 17600|17599|2008-06-16 09:14:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Riveted Steel Lifeboat any good?|On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:46:35PM -0000, Tom wrote: > Local Craigslist has a 30' Steel lifeboat for sale cheap. Priced about > right for basic hull to start building in. (15% of new material cost.) > Anyone know if Riveted boats hold up worth a darn? Does the name 'Titanic' mean anything to you? :))) > I remember a "Cruising World" magazine article from a few years back > and the writer had one as his first boat. Was having to dive and > epoxy nails as temporary fillers for lost rivets.... [laugh] I used to have a book by some UK author caled something like 'Owning a steel boat'. In it, he details patching holes in his boat - while crossing the Bay of Biscay, no less - by driving self-tapping screws into any leaks that sprang up and welding around the heads. "Sure", he says, "there's going to be water coming up around them - but it'll stop as you get weld metal on there!" Hilarious. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17601|17601|2008-06-16 10:29:29|theboilerflue|fuel tank vents|how are you all venting your fuel tanks? I've turned the keels into tanks and will have a day tank where on the cabin top do you recommend a putting the venting? And do you run them all together or vent them seperatly| 17602|17599|2008-06-16 10:46:40|Carl Volkwein|Re: Riveted Steel Lifeboat any good?|Is this the kind of boat Colin Archer used to fool with decades ago? Carl --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Tom wrote: From: Tom Subject: [origamiboats] Riveted Steel Lifeboat any good? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 8:46 AM Local Craigslist has a 30' Steel lifeboat for sale cheap. Priced about right for basic hull to start building in. (15% of new material cost.) Anyone know if Riveted boats hold up worth a darn? I remember a "Cruising World" magazine article from a few years back and the writer had one as his first boat. Was having to dive and epoxy nails as temporary fillers for lost rivets.... Also have an interesting Ketch locally, made from one, but the builder died and the new owner hasn't sailed it much yet. Any out there with some experience of Riveted boats? Tom - KA0TP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17603|17601|2008-06-16 12:04:04|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] fuel tank vents|Archetype that I purchased in December has a 1/2� plastic hose attached to the top of the tank for venting purposes. During normal operation of the boat, the hose is simply coiled on top of the tank under the floorboards and out of the way. When filling diesel, the hose is raised through the cabin hatch so the end is outside and vent fumes during filling are gone with the wind. I have not really found any disadvantage to this system and it does avoid fixed plumbing and drilling of holes in the cabin top. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of theboilerflue Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 10:29 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] fuel tank vents how are you all venting your fuel tanks? I've turned the keels into tanks and will have a day tank where on the cabin top do you recommend a putting the venting? And do you run them all together or vent them seperatly No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17604|17514|2008-06-16 12:51:58|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: steel mast size|Shouldn't a steel mast be welded shut, air tight, to prevent corrosion from the inside? Paint is great stuff, but you wouldn't paint the inside of your hull without sandblasting it. Quite ferocious rust can occur nowhere near the sea on beautifully painted steel that has not been adequately prepared before painting, and sandblasting the whole length of a steel mast inside sounds impossible. A sealed steel mast with halyards outside is no more problem than a solid timber mast, and would be the norm on junk rig and not unusual on gaff rig. Maybe galvanized pipe could be left open inside, if you could get it in appropriate size. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17605|17514|2008-06-16 13:23:12|brentswain38|Re: steel mast size|Absolutely.Any steel mast should be welded shut and totally airtight.That makes inside paint redundant and a waste of time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > > > Shouldn't a steel mast be welded shut, air tight, to prevent corrosion from the inside? Paint is great stuff, but you wouldn't paint the inside of your hull without sandblasting it. Quite ferocious rust can occur nowhere near the sea on beautifully painted steel that has not been adequately prepared before painting, and sandblasting the whole length of a steel mast inside sounds impossible. A sealed steel mast with halyards outside is no more problem than a solid timber mast, and would be the norm on junk rig and not unusual on gaff rig. > Maybe galvanized pipe could be left open inside, if you could get it in appropriate size. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17606|17601|2008-06-16 13:26:12|brentswain38|Re: fuel tank vents|I put vents on either side of the main hatch as high as possible,then plumb them in to the tanks with plastic hose before foaming.which burries the 1/2inch plastic in foam. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > how are you all venting your fuel tanks? I've turned the keels into > tanks and will have a day tank where on the cabin top do you recommend > a putting the venting? And do you run them all together or vent them > seperatly > | 17607|17514|2008-06-16 13:33:05|brentswain38|Re: steel mast size|Shinola ,a 36 footer with a steel mast sold last year for $95,000.Th esteelmast had no effect on her resale value and hasn't had in other boats with steel masts. An aluminium boatbuilder told me he can still buy aluminium new for under $3 per pound ,so the difference in price may not be all that great,except forthe cost of welding. Round aluminium can be sonly a few minutes of shop time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > My take on it: if you have a 'conventional' bermudan rig, and you care > more about resale than usability, buy a mast extrusion or used > aluminium mast. > > If you want to go sailing, and you can afford steel, use steel. > > Weight difference may not be worth considering. I'm always amused by > the people who solemnly caution about weight aloft and windage, all > the while using roller furling forestays. > > Martin, if you can get the steel at a price you can afford, get it. > Don't be put off by resale. I, personally, wouldn't be put off by a > steel mast when looking at a boat. > > As for aluminium tube versus steel tube, you're going to be paying 3X > the price for 6061 which has better structural qualities than 5053 or > 5056, the heat affected zones are only going to be 85% the strength of > the parent material, the weight is going to be almost identical to a > sched 10 steel mast. Lot easier to weld fittings to the steel mast. If > it ever rusts too badly, which it probably won't, you can buy 2 more > before you get to the original cost of an aluminium mast. > > There was a big ferro Colin Archer design in port recently - it had > galvanised steel masts more than 15 years old, and still in perfect > condition. > > I'm planning on using sched 10 steel tube myself. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > Hi Martin, > > > > > > > > In my opinion, I would do everything I could to get an aluminum > mast. I > > think the cost of a new blank aluminum mast, aluminum tube or > preferably a > > used mast with the extra gear on it is worth it. It's hard to think of > > anything that would reduce the resale value of a boat more than having a > > steel mast and I hate the idea of the extra weight up the mast. It has > > been a long time since I was looking for a mast, but I am sure deals are > > still available. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of martin demers > > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:05 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > > > > > > > > I also shopped for aluminium but it is far too expensive compare to > steel, I > > dont think it would be smart to start buying rigging and equipment > for more > > than I paid for my boat , it is a old 35ft steel hull from the '60s > > > > after the boat is fixed and I have experience sailing it and when I > will get > > more experience to decide more exactly what I prefer for equipment, > than I > > think it will be worthed to buy some more expensive rigging > > > > Martin > > ________________________________ > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: peter_d_wiley@ > > > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:58:11 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > > > > > > > > I was talking to Tom some time ago and would have to check the details > > > but IIRC Tom said that you could swap to 5" sched 10 steel pipe > > > instead of 5" sched 40 aluminium pipe which is the spec for a Gazelle > > > with junk or gaff rig. There was a slight weight penalty but not a > > > lot, and a great saving in materials cost. > > > > > > As for new versus used, if there was any doubt about the quality I'd > > > go for new. A mast isn't really a place to be cutting costs at the > > > expense of quality. What lengths can you get it in? Each weld joint > > > needs to be done carefully, with a backing sleeve and full penetration > > > welds. With new material you can probably get away with a single join > > > depending on the mast height. > > > > > > If you can get 6" OD by 1/8" wall at a good price, your penalty is a > > > mast that's 10% heavier than the 5 1/2" OD one, has somewhat more wind > > > resistance (probably not a lot), but is stiffer. Euler's formula > > > again. If you want to know how much stiffer, I'll dig the details out. > > > I may anyway, as a few numbers help. > > > > > > As for junk rig masts, a lot of them are unstayed so have to be a lot > > > thicker to minimise whip in a seaway. > > > > > > Another thing to be aware of is that a deck stepped mast is not as > > > stiff in column as a keel stepped one. The keel stepped mast is > > > considered to be a column with one fixed end and one pinned end; a > > > deck stepped mast is pinned/pinned. A really good, h/duty tabernackle > > > type base on the deck, fixed thru to the hull, gives the same effect > > > as a keel stepped mast. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , martin demers > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> I found some, but it is new material wich is much more expensive > > > than used steel at the scrap yard, > > >> > > >> by the way concerning the size, I noticed from pictures that mast on > > > junk rigs seems bigger than on conventionnal rigging > > >> > > >> Martin > > >> ________________________________ > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>> From: tazmannm@ > > >>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:48:00 -0700 > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Instead of 5-1/2" tube try 5" sch 10 pipe measurement would be > > > about 5-1/2" > > >>> OD > > >>> > > >>> On 6/9/08, martin demers> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Peter, > > >>>> > > >>>> I cannot find 5 1/2in. tube either used or new, apparently it is > > > not a > > >>>> common size. > > >>>> > > >>>> Martin. > > >>>> > > >>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>>>> From: peter_d_wiley@ > > >>>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:57:21 +0000 > > >>>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> No it won't. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> To calculate the cross sectional area of a tube, you subtract > the ID > > >>>>> from the OD and what's left is the wall thickness. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> For a 150mm OD tube with a 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 75^2*3.1412 - 73.8^2*3.1412 = 570 mm2 in round figures. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> For a 125mm OD tube with 1.2mm wall, the figures are: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 69^2*3.1412 - 67.8^2*3.1412 = 516 mm2 in round figures. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Comes out to 1.104X as heavy. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In Tom Colvin's books on steel boat building - which if you don't > > >>>>> have, you're severely handicapped - he extensively discusses > > > masts ans > > >>>>> IIRC has Euler's Formula values for different X-sections and > > >>>>> materials, so you can determine what works. He isn't guessing, > > > he has > > >>>>> the engineering data. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I'll look it up if you like... > > >>>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , martin demers > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> will the difference make a big difference? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Martin. > > >>>>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>>>>>> From: gary.lucas@ > > >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:11 -0400 > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Just do 6/5.5=1.09 times as heavy! > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Gary H. Lucas > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>>>>>> From: "Tom Mann"> > > >>>>>>> To:> > > >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:08 PM > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel mast size > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Martin > > >>>>>>>> I don't have my chart with me but I bet there is not much > weight > > >>>>>>>> difference > > >>>>>>>> between 5-1/2" or 6" OD .120" wall > > >>>>>>>> Tom > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Martin Demers> > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Brent, > > >>>>>>>>> in your book you mention using 5 1/2in.x 1/8in. steel tube for > > >>>>> the mast, > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> at the local scrap yard I found some 4 1/2in. o.d. x 1/8in. > > >>>>> steel tube at > > >>>>>>>>> 65 cents a pound > > >>>>>>>>> also some tubes of 6in o.d. x 1/8in. at 50cents a pound and at > > >>>>> another > > >>>>>>>>> place some 4 1/2 in. > > >>>>>>>>> o. d. x 1/8in galvanized steel tubes at $3.60 a foot. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> here comes my question; for a 40ft mast is it necessary to > use 5 > > >>>>> 1/2in > > >>>>>>>>> steel tube,would 4 1/2 > > >>>>>>>>> in tube do the job or be to small and is 6in. tube too big? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Thanks, Martin. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------ > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>>>>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >>>>>>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> __________________________________________________________ > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> __________________________________________________________ > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > >>>> > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1495 - Release Date: > 6/10/2008 > > 5:11 PM > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17608|17514|2008-06-16 14:59:35|Ben Okopnik|Re: steel mast size|On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 09:51:56AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > Shouldn't a steel mast be welded shut, air tight, to prevent > corrosion from the inside? Sounds like a great idea - especially if you purge it with nitrogen. That should be easy enough: seal it all up, then drill and tap a hole at each end. Pump nitrogen in at one end; after it's been flowing for a bit, put a 5200-covered bolt into the other end, then cap the intake side with the same thing. Unless you manage to crack the mast, it should stay rust-free forever, or at least long enough to will the boat to your great-grandkids. On the other hand, I'd wonder a bit about expansion and contraction. What would happen if you sealed it up in Canadian beach-going weather (-30C or so :) and then sailed to the islands? If I see headlines in the future that say "Canadian Sailor Killed by Mast Explosion", I hope that no one will blame me. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17609|17514|2008-06-16 17:26:34|ANDREW AIREY|Re: New Alternative Energy Gadgets|It sounds remarkably like the one exposed as a scam.Thinking back to the days of the magazine 'Light Steam Power' I'm sure that they did something about water injection but the idea was to improve the combustion of the petrol or diesel in the cylinder and not as an alternative fuel.You could also go for a producer gas plant using wood or coke if you wanted to get away from hydrocarbons but you need an efficient filtration system to protect the cylinder bores - they used the plants on some of the big lorries transporting bomber wings during world war 2 in the UK but I think that the life between rebores was only about 10k miles.Another article they had was about a guy who was developing a system to produce a colloidal fuel using ultrasonics.I think the mix was 4parts water,2parts fuel oil,4 parts coal dust,with a dash of limestone to take care of any sulphur.There was a photo of this mix burning with a clean flame but I don't know how stable the mix was.Handy for firing a little scotch boiler down in the bilges.All good fun cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17610|17610|2008-06-16 22:15:42|tazmannusa|BS 26 coupla ?|Hello All I did a little sandblasting touchup just on the fordeck to test painting, Tryed brushing it on and I can say I havnt masterd it yet, thined about 30% but the epoxy still wont flow out the brush marks. I cant spray the inside edges of the toe rail so I guess I will have to spot blast the inside edge and brush coat a couple of coats then come back and spotblast the rest, then spray, Unless someone has a better idea? I need to come up through the deck in 3 places for wiring, what is the norm for this? I have a bunch of 1/2" stainless pipe was considering using it threaded on the top and welded through decks. Tom| 17611|17601|2008-06-17 00:45:40|Gordon Schnell|Re: fuel tank vents|For what it's worth, I took all my vents out the aft of the pilothouse into the cockpit combings and vented them out the rear of the combings. Gord theboilerflue wrote: > > how are you all venting your fuel tanks? I've turned the keels into > tanks and will have a day tank where on the cabin top do you recommend > a putting the venting? And do you run them all together or vent them > seperatly > > | 17612|17514|2008-06-17 00:47:40|Gordon Schnell|Re: steel mast size|Welding it shut also traps air inside, making it a "floatation" chamber. Gord brentswain38 wrote: > > Absolutely.Any steel mast should be welded shut and totally > airtight.That makes inside paint redundant and a waste of time. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , RICHARD KOKEMOOR > wrote: > > > > > > > > Shouldn't a steel mast be welded shut, air tight, to prevent > corrosion from the inside? Paint is great stuff, but you wouldn't > paint the inside of your hull without sandblasting it. Quite > ferocious rust can occur nowhere near the sea on beautifully painted > steel that has not been adequately prepared before painting, and > sandblasting the whole length of a steel mast inside sounds > impossible. A sealed steel mast with halyards outside is no more > problem than a solid timber mast, and would be the norm on junk rig > and not unusual on gaff rig. > > Maybe galvanized pipe could be left open inside, if you could get > it in appropriate size. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 17613|17514|2008-06-17 02:04:06|Wally Paine|Re: steel mast size|If there is any moisture in the mast the little oxygen in there will soon be rusted out.   There was a case in the UK some years back where some kids dived under an overturned derelict steel boat, popped up inside for a breath and found no oxygen in the air there. At least one death if I remember rightly.    Wally Paine --- On Mon, 16/6/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 16 June, 2008, 7:59 PM On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 09:51:56AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > Shouldn't a steel mast be welded shut, air tight, to prevent > corrosion from the inside? Sounds like a great idea - especially if you purge it with nitrogen. That should be easy enough: seal it all up, then drill and tap a hole at each end. Pump nitrogen in at one end; after it's been flowing for a bit, put a 5200-covered bolt into the other end, then cap the intake side with the same thing. Unless you manage to crack the mast, it should stay rust-free forever, or at least long enough to will the boat to your great-grandkids. On the other hand, I'd wonder a bit about expansion and contraction. What would happen if you sealed it up in Canadian beach-going weather (-30C or so :) and then sailed to the islands? If I see headlines in the future that say "Canadian Sailor Killed by Mast Explosion", I hope that no one will blame me. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17614|17614|2008-06-17 04:06:27|K. Farmer|Brand new freebie page for this week|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://moourl.com/freebiemix3 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17615|17514|2008-06-17 10:06:59|meademd@aol.com|Re: steel mast size/oxygen deprevation|I encountered a similar experience working in an emergency room in Tampa FL. A worker had entered an enclosed barge hull, apparently there is an outer hull and an inner hull. I don't remember why the crew was going in there, for maintenance or something, but they started to black out once they went down inside through a manhole. One man managed to get out on his own and the other was somehow removed as i remember (30 yrs ago). Obviously, the rust inside the space had consumed all the oxygen. they were revived quickly and released from the emergency room. Robert Meade, Leesburg FL -----Original Message----- From: Wally Paine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 2:04 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size If there is any moisture in the mast the little oxygen in there will soon be rusted out.   There was a case in the UK some years back where some kids dived under an overturned derelict steel boat, popped up inside for a breath and found no oxygen in the air there. At least one death if I remember rightly.    Wally Paine --- On Mon, 16/6/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 16 June, 2008, 7:59 PM On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 09:51:56AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > Shouldn't a steel mast be welded shut, air tight, to prevent > corrosion from the inside? Sounds like a great idea - especially if you purge it with nitrogen. That should be easy enough: seal it all up, then drill and tap a hole at each end. Pump nitrogen in at one end; after it's been flowing for a bit, put a 5200-covered bolt into the other end, then cap the intake side with the same thing. Unless you manage to crack the mast, it should stay rust-free forever, or at least long enough to will the boat to your great-grandkids. On the other hand, I'd wonder a bit about expansion and contraction. What would happen if you sealed it up in Canadian beach-going weather (-30C or so :) and then sailed to the islands? If I see headlines in the future that say "Canadian Sailor Killed by Mast Explosion", I hope that no one will blame me. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17616|17582|2008-06-17 18:36:10|edward_stoneuk|Re: Teds photo album|Hi Tom, I deleted them because I didn't want to be associated with the F**k Allah posts. This forum can be viewed by children and folks all over the world and it is not right that this foul mouthed nonsense appears. Alex has now deleted the inappropriate posts. I will be putting some of the photos back. Some I have lost though. Regards, Ted| 17617|17514|2008-06-17 19:08:30|brentswain38|Re: steel mast size|This can add considerably to your ultimate stability, as can the air captured in a wheelhouse. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Welding it shut also traps air inside, making it a "floatation" chamber. > Gord > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Absolutely.Any steel mast should be welded shut and totally > > airtight.That makes inside paint redundant and a waste of time. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > , RICHARD KOKEMOOR > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Shouldn't a steel mast be welded shut, air tight, to prevent > > corrosion from the inside? Paint is great stuff, but you wouldn't > > paint the inside of your hull without sandblasting it. Quite > > ferocious rust can occur nowhere near the sea on beautifully painted > > steel that has not been adequately prepared before painting, and > > sandblasting the whole length of a steel mast inside sounds > > impossible. A sealed steel mast with halyards outside is no more > > problem than a solid timber mast, and would be the norm on junk rig > > and not unusual on gaff rig. > > > Maybe galvanized pipe could be left open inside, if you could get > > it in appropriate size. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > | 17618|17610|2008-06-17 19:12:01|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 coupla ?|Putting a couple of weld elbows in your conduit above the deck makes 180 degree turn in the conduit and the wire. This stops water from following the wire inside. It drips off at the bottom of the wire's loop. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" wrote: > > Hello All > I did a little sandblasting touchup just on the fordeck to test > painting, Tryed brushing it on and I can say I havnt masterd it yet, > thined about 30% but the epoxy still wont flow out the brush marks. > I cant spray the inside edges of the toe rail so I guess I will have to > spot blast the inside edge and brush coat a couple of coats then come > back and spotblast the rest, then spray, Unless someone has a better > idea? > I need to come up through the deck in 3 places for wiring, what is the > norm for this? I have a bunch of 1/2" stainless pipe was considering > using it threaded on the top and welded through decks. > Tom > | 17619|17619|2008-06-17 19:15:33|Wesley Cox|my posts|If this makes it to the forum, please disregard. If not, Alex, my posts haven't made it to the forum for some time, including one of yesterday. Do you have any idea why? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17620|17620|2008-06-17 20:50:49|Tom Mann|Neat looking steal boat|Hello all Pretty rare to see a steal boat on the hard around here but had to go line out a job and I will be danged there is one right off the highway. I had to go back and take a look because she looked like it might be an origami hull. Looked to be in the 30' range, shalow draft, keel about 3/4 the length of boat. I could only see it from the front side but the chine sure looks like origami and the hull was super fair. long bow spirit, the shear had a lot of sweap to it and the decks droped down lower with tall pilot house. motor sailer style. Name of boat Moonchild. I will be heading back that way Thursday and try to get a few pictures of it Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17621|17599|2008-06-18 04:12:32|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Riveted Steel Lifeboat any good?|Its the same as any other boat - go and have a look and if necessary get it surveyed.Considering that there are 100+ year old Dutch barges still going strong then there is not much wrong with the construction method - rivetted construction is heavier than welded but produces a much fairer hull,you don't seem to get the 'hungry horse' look you do with bad welding.Anyway at 30ft it shouldn't be much of a problem to get it out of the water and give it a good going over.Plate thickness may be more of a problem - 4mm seems to be the minimum acceptable on barges but at least you can always weld doubler plates where necessary - have just had this done on a 35ft narrowboat. It might give you some ideas to look at the 'Schuyt Houseboat' in 'Boats with an open mind'.The hull form won't quite be the same(I nearly bought one which was about 12 months ago)but it would make a good cruising boat. cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17622|17582|2008-06-18 05:40:21|James|Re: Teds photo album|I agree , Ted , i stopped using the forum because of that particular post and the excess of naturist type stuff ( i guess !) that filters through . regards , James On 6/17/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > I deleted them because I didn't want to be associated with the F**k > Allah posts. This forum can be viewed by children and folks all over > the world and it is not right that this foul mouthed nonsense > appears. Alex has now deleted the inappropriate posts. I will be > putting some of the photos back. Some I have lost though. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17623|17623|2008-06-18 17:11:17|Wesley Cox|Fw: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size|Trying this again. It was blocked/lost first try. The ideal gas law says PV = nRT P is absolute pressure of a gas V is its volume, assumed constant here n is the number of moles of gas, constant in this system R is the universal gas constant T is absolute temperature (Kelvin) Assuming, as you say, -30 C when the mast is sealed and let's say 50 C internal mast temp in the tropics, give or take, this makes a difference, approximately, between 243 K and 323 K. This is a relative increase in temperature of 323/243 =~ 1.33. P = nRT/V => P = cT since n, R and V are constant meaning an increase in pressure of 1.33 or 1/3 atmosphere, negligible pressure even for 6" schedule 10 steel pipe. ----- Original Message ----- From: BenOkopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 09:51:56AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > Shouldn't a steel mast be welded shut, air tight, to prevent > corrosion from the inside? Sounds like a great idea - especially if you purge it with nitrogen. That should be easy enough: seal it all up, then drill and tap a hole at each end. Pump nitrogen in at one end; after it's been flowing for a bit, put a 5200-covered bolt into the other end, then cap the intake side with the same thing. Unless you manage to crack the mast, it should stay rust-free forever, or at least long enough to will the boat to your great-grandkids. On the other hand, I'd wonder a bit about expansion and contraction. What would happen if you sealed it up in Canadian beach-going weather (-30C or so :) and then sailed to the islands? If I see headlines in the future that say "Canadian Sailor Killed by Mast Explosion", I hope that no one will blame me. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17624|17624|2008-06-18 17:38:28|edward_stoneuk|Batten down the hatches|Hi all, This is from http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2008/pr20080618.html Some or all of us will see if their prediction comes true. Regards, Ted Atlantic tropical storm season set to top the average 18 June 2008 During the 2008 North Atlantic tropical storm season the Met Office is forecasting 15 named storms, with a 70% chance that the number will be in the range 10 to 20 between July and November. This represents above-normal activity relative to the 1990-2005 long-term average of 12.4, and is more than last year's total of 12 storms for the same period. Go to the forecast The Met Office forecast uses an ensemble of global climate model forecasts which simulate the interactions between ocean and atmosphere. These forecasts successfully predicted the switch between the very active 2005 season to the much quieter conditions the following year. The forecasts use a radically different approach to traditional statistical methods which rely on past trends and have been developed following research work with other European prediction centres. Matt Huddleston, Met Office Principal Consultant on climate change says: "North Atlantic tropical storms affect UK citizens abroad, and at home through fluctuating oil, food and insurance markets. The Met Office forecast has already demonstrated its benefits over traditional methods, especially in highlighting extremes. This year the range is very interesting and is the result of competing influences from the Atlantic and Pacific. While warm sea temperatures in the Atlantic act to increase the number of storms, our model also captures the small potential of an El Niño in the Pacific which may counteract this, hence the wider range in our forecast compared to others." The Met Office also provides forecasts of tropical storms and hurricanes ranging from individual short-range track and landfall projections which are used by the National Hurricane Center in Miami. Notes: The Met Office Public Weather Service funds the basic tropical storm frequency forecast for the Atlantic's June-November season in support of its activities on behalf of the FCO. The forecast is for the five full months remaining in the June- November Atlantic tropical storm season. There has been one named storm to date – Arthur. An ensemble means predicting the future many times to sample the possibilities. As the climate is chaotic, and small changes in the initial conditions make big changes in the forecasts, this is one approach to get risk-based estimates of the impacts of weather and climate. Tropical storms represent significant risk to the insurance, energy and finance markets. In 2005, Lloyd's estimated its losses to be £2.9 billion as a result of the three biggest hurricanes alone in the Atlantic season. The impact of Hurricane Katrina on oil and gas production was hugely significant for UK and global markets. A detailed report on the 2008 forecast will be available from the Met Office on 26 June with information on probabilities and the strength and credibility of signals within the forecast. To receive the report please email consulting@... or contact our 24-hour customer centre.| 17625|17623|2008-06-18 18:10:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size|On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 04:11:07PM -0500, Wesley Cox wrote: > Trying this again. It was blocked/lost first try. > > The ideal gas law says > > PV = nRT > > P is absolute pressure of a gas > V is its volume, assumed constant here > n is the number of moles of gas, constant in this system > R is the universal gas constant > T is absolute temperature (Kelvin) > > Assuming, as you say, -30 C when the mast is sealed and let's say 50 C internal mast temp in the tropics, give or take, this makes a difference, approximately, between 243 K and 323 K. This is a relative increase in temperature of 323/243 =~ 1.33. > > P = nRT/V => > > P = cT since n, R and V are constant > > meaning an increase in pressure of 1.33 or 1/3 atmosphere, negligible pressure even for 6" schedule 10 steel pipe. Nice. Thanks, Wesley! I haven't done any of that stuff since my early days of scuba diving in the military (we had to solve for partial gas pressures, etc.), which was [mumble-mumble, too damn many years ago] - and never before then, except possibly in school, which lies behind an impenetrable haze of alcoholic parties. In fact, there's a suspicious correlation right there: when I was doing those calculations, I was drinking heavily. When one stopped, so did the other (plus/minus a margin of error.) Hmmm... cause and effect? :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17626|17626|2008-06-18 18:17:23|brentswain38|Boatdesign.net|There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that none of my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same Mike who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built and cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. Thanks Brent| 17627|17626|2008-06-18 19:11:34|Tom Mann|Re: Boatdesign.net|Yep things shure got heated up there. They are still nit pickin back and forth. At least they slacked off on the hillbilly coments Tom On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that none of > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same Mike > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built and > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > Thanks > Brent > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17628|17582|2008-06-18 19:35:25|Tom Mann|Re: Teds photo album|I can understand that . I have often wonderd why somone would post stuff like that on a forum thats completely unrelated to it. Hows your boat coming along? Tom On 6/17/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > I deleted them because I didn't want to be associated with the F**k > Allah posts. This forum can be viewed by children and folks all over > the world and it is not right that this foul mouthed nonsense > appears. Alex has now deleted the inappropriate posts. I will be > putting some of the photos back. Some I have lost though. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17629|17623|2008-06-18 20:16:00|Wesley Cox|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size|----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Re: steel mast size On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 04:11:07PM -0500, Wesley Cox wrote: > Trying this again. It was blocked/lost first try. > > The ideal gas law says > > PV = nRT > > P is absolute pressure of a gas > V is its volume, assumed constant here > n is the number of moles of gas, constant in this system > R is the universal gas constant > T is absolute temperature (Kelvin) > > Assuming, as you say, -30 C when the mast is sealed and let's say 50 C internal mast temp in the tropics, give or take, this makes a difference, approximately, between 243 K and 323 K. This is a relative increase in temperature of 323/243 =~ 1.33. > > P = nRT/V => > > P = cT since n, R and V are constant > > meaning an increase in pressure of 1.33 or 1/3 atmosphere, negligible pressure even for 6" schedule 10 steel pipe. Nice. Thanks, Wesley! I haven't done any of that stuff since my early days of scuba diving in the military (we had to solve for partial gas pressures, etc.), which was [mumble-mumble, too damn many years ago] - and never before then, except possibly in school, which lies behind an impenetrable haze of alcoholic parties. In fact, there's a suspicious correlation right there: when I was doing those calculations, I was drinking heavily. When one stopped, so did the other (plus/minus a margin of error.) Hmmm... cause and effect? :) Very funny, Ben, and you may be onto something... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17630|17514|2008-06-18 23:42:51|peter_d_wiley|Re: steel mast size|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Shinola ,a 36 footer with a steel mast sold last year for $95,000.Th > esteelmast had no effect on her resale value and hasn't had in other > boats with steel masts. > An aluminium boatbuilder told me he can still buy aluminium new for > under $3 per pound ,so the difference in price may not be all that > great,except forthe cost of welding. I said approx 3X and that's what I meant. If you think I'm wrong, fine. Please provide a source. http://www.lme.co.uk/aluminium.asp London Metal Exchange price today for buyers, 3 month delivery, is: Steel $USD 1080/tonne. Aluminium $USD 2981/tonne Price per pound for the benighted people who can't use SI units is $USD 1.35/lb for aluminium and $0.49/lb for steel. Processing only puts the billet price up. If the boatbuilder can buy aluminium for $3/lb, that tells us nothing unless you also say what he can buy steel for. > Round aluminium can be sonly a few minutes of shop time. Agreed.| 17631|17514|2008-06-19 08:28:11|ANDREW AIREY|Re: steel mast size|Don't assume that it will stay that low.The farmer where I keep my boat is having a mammoth weigh in at the moment because mixed steel scrap can be weighed in at $440/ton cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17632|17626|2008-06-19 10:41:02|vic_lub|Re: Boatdesign.net|I follow boatdesign forums everyday, thats actaully how i ended up find this great site... But i cant seem to find the posts being mentioned... Could you post a link for me? Thanks Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Yep things shure got heated up there. They are still nit pickin back and > forth. At least they slacked off on the hillbilly coments > Tom > > > On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that none of > > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same Mike > > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built and > > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal > > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > > Thanks > > Brent > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17633|17626|2008-06-19 13:27:30|James|Re: Boatdesign.net|Brent , i have stopped dropping in to that site due to the constant backstabbing , architectural snobbery , and the appalling bad manners i find whenever i do ; i am a genuine learner of boat design , who wants to build a steel boat , and they just poo on one if a "basic" question is asked ---- i have never seen a swain design in the flesh here in scotland or anywhere , but i certainly do not doubt they are there , sailing , and fully viable as passagemakers . jim On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that none of > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same Mike > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built and > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > Thanks > Brent > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17634|17582|2008-06-19 13:39:05|James|Re: Teds photo album|Not -- still desk researching , and repairing our old vw camper as i learn to weld . Plan to start a boat in 2 yrs or so. james On 6/19/08, Tom Mann wrote: > > I can understand that . I have often wonderd why somone would post stuff > like that on a forum thats completely unrelated to it. > Hows your boat coming along? > Tom > > > On 6/17/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > I deleted them because I didn't want to be associated with the F**k > > Allah posts. This forum can be viewed by children and folks all over > > the world and it is not right that this foul mouthed nonsense > > appears. Alex has now deleted the inappropriate posts. I will be > > putting some of the photos back. Some I have lost though. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17635|17626|2008-06-19 14:56:13|brentswain38|Re: Boatdesign.net|Scroll down to boatbuilding, then look for metal boatbuiulding. click on to it and go to realistic scantlings. I don't do any other input on the site, but challenges have to be met. Thanks Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vic_lub" wrote: > > I follow boatdesign forums everyday, thats actaully how i ended up > find this great site... > But i cant seem to find the posts being mentioned... > Could you post a link for me? > Thanks > Vic > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Yep things shure got heated up there. They are still nit pickin > back and > > forth. At least they slacked off on the hillbilly coments > > Tom > > > > > > On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that > none of > > > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same > Mike > > > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > > > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built > and > > > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal > > > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > > > Thanks > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17636|17626|2008-06-19 21:20:21|Paul Wilson|Re: Boatdesign.net|Hi Brent, I just posted something today. I hope you like it! Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Boatdesign.net There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that none of my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same Mike who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built and cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. Thanks Brent No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17637|17637|2008-06-20 02:07:11|suevalentine74|The correct link to the free-stuff!|ooop's sorry! My friend sent me the wrong freebie link!, here is the correct one! The new freebies for this week can be found at: http://freebiesweekly.blogspot.com/2008_06_15_archive.html Enjoy the free stuff and have a great week!| 17638|17626|2008-06-20 10:31:57|edward_stoneuk|Re: Boatdesign.net|Jim, In the files section of this forum there is a couple of pictures of a BS 36 in Scotland. Kerrera -- a Swain 36 Fin-keeler located in Portknockie Harbour, MorayFirth, Scotland Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > Brent , i have stopped dropping in to that site due to the constant > backstabbing , architectural snobbery , and the appalling bad manners i find > whenever i do ; i am a genuine learner of boat design , who wants to build a > steel boat , and they just poo on one if a "basic" question is asked ---- i > have never seen a swain design in the flesh here in scotland or anywhere , > but i certainly do not doubt they are there , sailing , and fully viable as > passagemakers . > > jim > > > On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that none of > > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same Mike > > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built and > > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal > > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > > Thanks > > Brent > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17639|17626|2008-06-20 12:35:01|Michael Casling|Re: Boatdesign.net|There is a boatdesign group on yahoogroups, same as this group. But you must be referring to another boat design group. Nothing has been said about your designs or steel boats in recent memory, on the yahoo groups boat design. Most on the group talk about small homebuilt wood and glass boats. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Scroll down to boatbuilding, then look for metal boatbuiulding. click > on to it and go to realistic scantlings. > I don't do any other input on the site, but challenges have to be met. > Thanks > Brent | 17640|17626|2008-06-20 12:39:39|James|Re: Boatdesign.net|Ted , thanks , i have seen it , and portknockie is only 2-3 hours away from me ( driving , probably 40 mins by power boat ) but i have made enquiries and the vessel is no longer there apparently . ttfn , jim On 6/20/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Jim, > > In the files section of this forum there is a couple of pictures of a > BS 36 in Scotland. > > Kerrera -- a Swain 36 > Fin-keeler located in Portknockie Harbour, MorayFirth, Scotland > > Regards, > > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > James wrote: > > > > Brent , i have stopped dropping in to that site due to the constant > > backstabbing , architectural snobbery , and the appalling bad > manners i find > > whenever i do ; i am a genuine learner of boat design , who wants > to build a > > steel boat , and they just poo on one if a "basic" question is > asked ---- i > > have never seen a swain design in the flesh here in scotland or > anywhere , > > but i certainly do not doubt they are there , sailing , and fully > viable as > > passagemakers . > > > > jim > > > > > > On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that > none of > > > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same > Mike > > > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > > > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built > and > > > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal > > > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > > > Thanks > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17641|17626|2008-06-20 14:50:51|brentswain38|Re: Boatdesign.net|No . the one I'm refering to is not a yahoo group. I just search boatdesign.net and it comes up Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > There is a boatdesign group on yahoogroups, same as this group. But you > must be referring to another boat design group. Nothing has been said > about your designs or steel boats in recent memory, on the yahoo groups > boat design. Most on the group talk about small homebuilt wood and > glass boats. > Michael > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Scroll down to boatbuilding, then look for metal boatbuiulding. click > > on to it and go to realistic scantlings. > > I don't do any other input on the site, but challenges have to be > met. > > Thanks > > Brent > | 17642|17624|2008-06-20 14:57:14|brentswain38|Re: Batten down the hatches|This usually means the warmer waters are moving west, which means the eastern parts of the oceans will be cooler than normal. Friends said it was cold im Mexico this past winter with lows to 6 degrees C in the Baja and 9 degrees C in Puerto Vallarta. The wore long pants all inter. Those who saile further south said that the storm along the California coats sent huge swells thru the ahchorages south of PV Think Ill spend the winter here. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi all, > > This is from > http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2008/pr20080618.html > > Some or all of us will see if their prediction comes true. > > Regards, > Ted > > > Atlantic tropical storm season set to top the average > 18 June 2008 > > During the 2008 North Atlantic tropical storm season the Met Office > is forecasting 15 named storms, with a 70% chance that the number > will be in the range 10 to 20 between July and November. This > represents above-normal activity relative to the 1990-2005 long-term > average of 12.4, and is more than last year's total of 12 storms for > the same period. > > Go to the forecast > > The Met Office forecast uses an ensemble of global climate model > forecasts which simulate the interactions between ocean and > atmosphere. These forecasts successfully predicted the switch between > the very active 2005 season to the much quieter conditions the > following year. The forecasts use a radically different approach to > traditional statistical methods which rely on past trends and have > been developed following research work with other European prediction > centres. > > Matt Huddleston, Met Office Principal Consultant on climate change > says: "North Atlantic tropical storms affect UK citizens abroad, and > at home through fluctuating oil, food and insurance markets. The Met > Office forecast has already demonstrated its benefits over > traditional methods, especially in highlighting extremes. This year > the range is very interesting and is the result of competing > influences from the Atlantic and Pacific. While warm sea temperatures > in the Atlantic act to increase the number of storms, our model also > captures the small potential of an El Niño in the Pacific which may > counteract this, hence the wider range in our forecast compared to > others." > > The Met Office also provides forecasts of tropical storms and > hurricanes ranging from individual short-range track and landfall > projections which are used by the National Hurricane Center in Miami. > > Notes: > > The Met Office Public Weather Service funds the basic tropical storm > frequency forecast for the Atlantic's June-November season in support > of its activities on behalf of the FCO. > The forecast is for the five full months remaining in the June- > November Atlantic tropical storm season. There has been one named > storm to date – Arthur. > An ensemble means predicting the future many times to sample the > possibilities. As the climate is chaotic, and small changes in the > initial conditions make big changes in the forecasts, this is one > approach to get risk-based estimates of the impacts of weather and > climate. > Tropical storms represent significant risk to the insurance, energy > and finance markets. In 2005, Lloyd's estimated its losses to be £2.9 > billion as a result of the three biggest hurricanes alone in the > Atlantic season. The impact of Hurricane Katrina on oil and gas > production was hugely significant for UK and global markets. > A detailed report on the 2008 forecast will be available from the Met > Office on 26 June with information on probabilities and the strength > and credibility of signals within the forecast. To receive the report > please email consulting@... or contact our 24-hour > customer centre. > | 17643|17643|2008-06-21 14:33:45|brentswain38|Boat thieves|It was suggested on another site that faxes could be sent to Can Am recyclers , in response to their stealing Rowland's boat, and that simply making several copies of the fax to be sent and taping the ends together would make a continuous loop. Then the machine could be left on for the weekend. Come monday the office would be filled with a pile of faxes, and the machine would be empty. Interesting concept. They are a subsidiary of Amix , near Vancouver. Amix's fax number is 604-823-6994 Their email adress is admin@... Can Am's email adress is canamrecycling@... Their toll free number is 1-877-245-5051 If every one of the people on this site, and as many of their friends as they could get the support of were to send them a dozen emails a day , asking when they plan to compensate Rowland , they would get the message. Kinda hard to do business when fax and emails are too busy and faxes continuously run out of paper and inboxes fill up. From a purely buisiness point of view , resistance to ones honouring moral obligations may be bad economic practise. Every boatbuilder, or for that matter everyone who is vulnerable to thieves has a stake in the outcome of this case. Speaking entirely hypothetically , of course. When a guy found out his mother had given her life savings to a televangelist ,he programed his computer to dial the con mans toll free number every 30 seconds. When they went to court the Judge said "When you have a toll free number that means you agree to accept all calls and charges. Case dismissed."It cost the televangelist $8 million in phone bills. Brent| 17644|17643|2008-06-21 19:09:57|brentswain38|Re: Boat thieves|Rowland was that Dans Precast in Victoria who moved the boat? If so, they also have a toll free number, email and fax number one can find by a websearch. Brent - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It was suggested on another site that faxes could be sent to Can Am > recyclers , in response to their stealing Rowland's boat, and that > simply making several copies of the fax to be sent and taping the ends > together would make a continuous loop. Then the machine could be left > on for the weekend. Come monday the office would be filled with a pile > of faxes, and the machine would be empty. > Interesting concept. > They are a subsidiary of Amix , near Vancouver. > Amix's fax number is 604-823-6994 > Their email adress is admin@... > Can Am's email adress is canamrecycling@... > Their toll free number is 1-877-245-5051 > If every one of the people on this site, and as many of their friends > as they could get the support of were to send them a dozen emails a > day , asking when they plan to compensate Rowland , they would get the > message. > Kinda hard to do business when fax and emails are too busy and faxes > continuously run out of paper and inboxes fill up. > From a purely buisiness point of view , resistance to ones honouring > moral obligations may be bad economic practise. > Every boatbuilder, or for that matter everyone who is vulnerable to > thieves has a stake in the outcome of this case. > Speaking entirely hypothetically , of course. > When a guy found out his mother had given her life savings to a > televangelist ,he programed his computer to dial the con mans toll > free number every 30 seconds. When they went to court the Judge said > "When you have a toll free number that means you agree to accept all > calls and charges. Case dismissed."It cost the televangelist $8 > million in phone bills. > Brent > | 17645|17626|2008-06-22 04:29:17|Pradyumn kapoor|Re: Boatdesign.net|dont send me useless messages --- On Thu, 19/6/08, James wrote: From: James Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boatdesign.net To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 19 June, 2008, 10:57 PM Brent , i have stopped dropping in to that site due to the constant backstabbing , architectural snobbery , and the appalling bad manners i find whenever i do ; i am a genuine learner of boat design , who wants to build a steel boat , and they just poo on one if a "basic" question is asked ---- i have never seen a swain design in the flesh here in scotland or anywhere , but i certainly do not doubt they are there , sailing , and fully viable as passagemakers . jim On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that none of > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same Mike > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built and > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > Thanks > Brent > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17646|17626|2008-06-22 04:37:03|Pradyumn kapoor|Re: Boatdesign.net|dont send me useless things and messagase --- On Fri, 20/6/08, Michael Casling wrote: From: Michael Casling Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boatdesign.net To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 20 June, 2008, 10:04 PM There is a boatdesign group on yahoogroups, same as this group. But you must be referring to another boat design group. Nothing has been said about your designs or steel boats in recent memory, on the yahoo groups boat design. Most on the group talk about small homebuilt wood and glass boats. Michael --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Scroll down to boatbuilding, then look for metal boatbuiulding. click > on to it and go to realistic scantlings. > I don't do any other input on the site, but challenges have to be met. > Thanks > Brent From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17647|17626|2008-06-22 06:19:44|sae140|Re: Boatdesign.net|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > No . the one I'm refering to is not a yahoo group. I just search > boatdesign.net and it comes up > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" > wrote: > > > > There is a boatdesign group on yahoogroups, same as this group. But you > > must be referring to another boat design group. Nothing has been said > > about your designs or steel boats in recent memory, on the yahoo groups > > boat design. Most on the group talk about small homebuilt wood and > > glass boats. > > Michael http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=210279#post210279 will get you onto the end of the thread in question. I pulled out of BoatDesign a while ago after being continually ridiculed for suggesting that modified automotive engines can make perfectly satisfactory marine engines - from a 'swings and roundabouts' perspective. The fact that this had already been done with countless hundreds of engines in post-war Britain was constantly ignored, and it seems to me that some people on Boatdesign are more concerned with airing their own prejudices rather than considering alternatives - even if these have been proven to work. I won't post on that Forum anymore, but I'd like to make a brief defence of Alex in regard of one accusation being made in that thread: "The reason I commented on the hull [Alex's 'for sale' hull] was that members of the group were not being told about the true condition of the boat. While you or I would be able to accurately assess the condition of the hull, the members whom were interested in the shell were embarking on - in each case - their first build & their first steelwork project. I felt that they were being "hoodwinked"." Nothing could be further from the truth. As one prospective (overseas) purchaser, I emailed Alex for details and he gave me a full run-down on the hull, it's built-state and current condition, and supplied me with enough photographs which, together with Brent's opinion (which I value and respect) enabled me to make a judgement that the hull was worth shipping to Britain for completion at Alex's asking price. There were two reasons why I didn't buy the hull myself. The first was that I couldn't find anyone in Britain willing to give me a deck-cargo port-to-port shipping price. It seems these days unless stuff fits into a standard-size container yer average shipping agent just doesn't want to know. The second, and much more compelling reason, is that importing a partially completed self-build hull into Europe contravenes the infamous Recreational Craft Directive, and I could have been faced with lengthy and expensive legal wranglings. I did consider importing the hull as a "partially-completed water tank", but didn't know if I'd get away with it ... Colin| 17648|17643|2008-06-22 17:09:59|kingsknight4life|Re: Boat thieves|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Rowland > was that Dans Precast in Victoria who moved the boat? If so, they > also have a toll free number, email and fax number one can find by a > websearch. > Brent No, it was Dan's precast in Duncan. Maybe they have an office in Victoria too? Rowland| 17649|17626|2008-06-22 19:20:46|vic_lub|Re: Boatdesign.net|Well Brent after reading the whole post i cant figure out if they hate your ideas, ideals, or just you....but you seem to have stirred them up... Cheers Vuc| 17650|17626|2008-06-23 13:49:14|brentswain38|Re: Boatdesign.net|When advances in technology makes what you have learned over many years redundant, you tend to get defensive, and try to slow things down to a speed which you can keep up with.Livery stable owners did the same with that new fangled 'Horseless Carriage." I remember a government map drawer in the early 80's complaining that a guy with a computer was scooping up all the government contracts and putting him out of work. The solution? Get your own computer and learn what he knows. Ditto with origami boatbuilding. Instead of trying to defend the indefensible, grab what you can from the advances and put it to your own use. It's not as if I have kept what I learned a trade secret.I have been extremely willing to share everything I have learned with everyone who may benefit , and have made no attempt to monopolise it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vic_lub" wrote: > > Well Brent after reading the whole post i cant figure out if they hate > your ideas, ideals, or just you....but you seem to have stirred them > up... > > Cheers > Vuc > | 17651|17626|2008-06-23 13:51:06|brentswain38|Re: Boatdesign.net|Paul Thanks for your help. Great posting. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > > > I just posted something today. I hope you like it! > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:17 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Boatdesign.net > > > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that none of > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same Mike > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built and > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > Thanks > Brent > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 > 7:09 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17652|17626|2008-06-23 14:05:37|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Boatdesign.net|The thing to do if you are importing something like that is to have a look at the 'Tariff'.This sets out the headings under which goods are classified.I'm not sure if it's available at the public library but they should be able to get hold of a copy or it may well be available under a .gov website.When I worked in Customs 40 years ago the raised eyebrows (and subsequent nasty queries) were occasioned by shipping agents who were trying to get things into a lower duty category than they were entitled to. So if the duty on part completed boats is 20% and fabricated tanks is 10% then you might get an invoice (and a court case) raised as well as the eyebrows.However there is usually a miscellaneous category at the end of each tariff chapter,usually at a slightly higher rate of duty in my day,which might be worth looking at cheers andy airey Ps Someone(not me) raised an entry for 20 tons of pigeon semen as an April Fools joke and got it into the system but it was intercepted before it got into the trade statistics Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17653|17653|2008-06-23 14:42:28|brentswain38|Alex's old boat|Haiden. I'm back in Comox and lost your phone number, Please email it to me. Brent| 17654|17626|2008-06-24 05:07:03|sae140|Re: Boatdesign.net|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > The thing to do if you are importing something like that is to have a look at the 'Tariff'.This sets out the headings under which goods are classified.I'm not sure if it's available at the public library but they should be able to get hold of a copy or it may well be available under a .gov website.When I worked in Customs 40 years ago the raised eyebrows (and subsequent nasty queries) were occasioned by shipping agents who were trying to get things into a lower duty category than they were entitled to. > So if the duty on part completed boats is 20% and fabricated tanks is 10% then you might get an invoice (and a court case) raised as well as the eyebrows.However there is usually a miscellaneous category at the end of each tariff chapter,usually at a slightly higher rate of duty in my day,which might be worth looking at > cheers > andy airey > Ps Someone(not me) raised an entry for 20 tons of pigeon semen as an April Fools joke and got it into the system but it was intercepted before it got into the trade statistics > Useful info Andy, thanks. I'd never imported anything other than the usual parcels via Ebay, so I found breaking such new ground to be a vertical learning curve. Other than having my bags routinely searched, I haven't had much contact with UK Customs myself, but over the last few years they've developed a rather bad press due to their 'over-zealousness' regarding the importation of alcohol and tobacco products into Britain from mainland Europe, and got themselves a reputation for being a law unto themselves. They illegally seized (and then auctioned-off !) a large number of vehicles used by so-called 'smugglers', who were enterprising Brits operating within EU laws, and UK Customs were duly taken to court and lost. Dunno how punitive they are since that ruling. I wasn't totally surprised at the lack of enthusiasm from shipping agents, as I found the same lack of enterprising spirit here when trying to source large steel sheets. But it was the EU RCD which was the big kill-joy - essentially the rules require that a home-built boat be constructed entirely within EU territory, and to be built from beginning to completion by one designated person with only token outside assistance being permitted. Any sale which takes place prior to commissioning (and indeed 4 years AFTER that) renders the owner of the craft liable to submit a full set of documentation for EU type-approval, identical to that required for a mass-produced vessel. And the tests necessary to compile that kind of documentation would cost tens of thousands of pounds. I don't know of anyone who has fallen foul of the EU RCD, but I didn't much fancy being the first ... cheers, Colin| 17655|17655|2008-06-24 10:32:13|Shane Duncan|Re: aluminium pilot house|has anyone used an aluminum cabin/pilot house on a steel hull/deck? i've just about finished putting on my top decking (3mm steel) on my BS 31   I'm considering making the pilot house/cabin out of aluminum put a steel lip around the deck then  bolt or rivet the aluminum cabin on using a nuoprene gasket or elastomer sealant   i'm building outside but next to a large shed it's too small for my boat but large enough for a cabin top w.r.t. mig welding   i had a mate put the cabin top on Rhino a 3d CAD package so as to  develop out all the plates. Once plasma cut it should be pretty accurate he's also a gun with the mig   going about it this way i hope to save a bit of time, hire a small crane then just drop in on. plus i will be able to remove around 150kg from the top and put this in the keel.   does this sound like a reasonable option? i'm looking at ordering the aluminum in about 2 weeks   cheers shane                       ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 3:55:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boatdesign.net Scroll down to boatbuilding, then look for metal boatbuiulding. click on to it and go to realistic scantlings. I don't do any other input on the site, but challenges have to be met. Thanks Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vic_lub" wrote: > > I follow boatdesign forums everyday, thats actaully how i ended up > find this great site... > But i cant seem to find the posts being mentioned... > Could you post a link for me? > Thanks > Vic > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Yep things shure got heated up there. They are still nit pickin > back and > > forth. At least they slacked off on the hillbilly coments > >  Tom > > > > > > On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that > none of > > > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same > Mike > > > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > > > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built > and > > > cruised in my designs  drop in and give some input. It's on metal > > > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > > > Thanks > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17656|17655|2008-06-24 10:52:06|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 07:32:10AM -0700, Shane Duncan wrote: > has anyone used an aluminum cabin/pilot house on a steel hull/deck? That's what the US Coast Guard does with a lot of their rescue boats; steel hull, aluminum cabin. You can bolt it down with butyl tape and Monel washers to isolate it from the steel, or you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you weld the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the source right now. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17657|17655|2008-06-24 11:19:00|Paul Liebenberg|Re: aluminium pilot house|Ben, I'm interested in the Butyl tape/Monel Washer connection Do you have any more information? ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 7:52 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 07:32:10AM -0700, Shane Duncan wrote: > > has anyone used an aluminum cabin/pilot house on a steel hull/deck? > > That's what the US Coast Guard does with a lot of their rescue boats; > steel hull, aluminum cabin. You can bolt it down with butyl tape and > Monel washers to isolate it from the steel, or you can weld it > down with > a bimetallic strip that some guy in Australia invented: it's > explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you weld the right material > to each > side and you're done - no galvanic corrosion. I heard about it a few > years ago, and I've talked to some people who have used it, but I'm > feeling to lazy to look up the source right now. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message > to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 17658|17655|2008-06-24 12:04:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 08:18:20AM -0700, Paul Liebenberg wrote: > Ben, I'm interested in the Butyl tape/Monel Washer connection Do you have any more information? That was my shorthand for the standard thing I do when I want to galvanically isolate anything on the boat. If I was bolting aluminum to steel, I'd weld an SS stud to the steel and drill an oversized hole in the aluminum. Then, I'd punch a hole in some butyl tape and use that to separate the two metals, squirt some 5200 into the hole around the stud, put a big Monel washer on top of the aluminum (Monel is essentially non-reactive) and use a nut to crank it down. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17659|17659|2008-06-24 13:31:29|Martin Demers|steel deck and cabin top VS wooden deck|I saw some steel sailboat plans using wooden decks, to save weight, how would it perform on a brent boat, would it be to weak? Martin.| 17660|17659|2008-06-24 13:53:54|brentswain38|Re: steel deck and cabin top VS wooden deck|A wooden deck would be a huge mistake. The hull-deck joint takes the entire twisting load of the boat. For an example , take a rectangular tupper ware container and take the lid off. Then twist it. Now put the lid on and try twisting it again. This is the reason for the high failure rate of hull deck joints on fibreglass boats. Such movement will eventually guarantee failure of any kind of joint at the hull deck joint. Having wood against steel is like having wet botting paper against steel, guaranteeing major corrosion. A wooden deck would throw away a major advantage of steel boats, absolute watertight integrity and tremendous strength. I can put the decks on a steel boat in 8 hours. The same in wood would take weeks. It also means throwing away the advantage of being able to weld evertything down ,totally elminating leaks around deck fittings, common on non metal decks You can't properly insulate a wooden deck without increasing the danger of dry rot. Wood has nowhere near the insulation of sprayfoam. I've lived under a wooden deck on my first boat . Never again. Anyone who would recommend a wooden deck on a steel boat obviously has little experience in cruising in a steel boat or maintaining one over any length of time. Best avoid getting your advice from anyone so naive. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > I saw some steel sailboat plans using wooden decks, to save weight, > how would it perform on a brent boat, would it be to weak? > > Martin. > | 17661|17655|2008-06-24 13:55:34|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house|Monel is a type of bronze and would seriously corrode both steel and aluminium . Better to use stainless type 316 . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg wrote: > > Ben, I'm interested in the Butyl tape/Monel Washer connection Do you have any more information? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ben Okopnik > Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 7:52 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 07:32:10AM -0700, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > has anyone used an aluminum cabin/pilot house on a steel hull/deck? > > > > That's what the US Coast Guard does with a lot of their rescue boats; > > steel hull, aluminum cabin. You can bolt it down with butyl tape and > > Monel washers to isolate it from the steel, or you can weld it > > down with > > a bimetallic strip that some guy in Australia invented: it's > > explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you weld the right material > > to each > > side and you're done - no galvanic corrosion. I heard about it a few > > years ago, and I've talked to some people who have used it, but I'm > > feeling to lazy to look up the source right now. :) > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@... Unsubscribe, send a blank message > > to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 17662|17626|2008-06-24 13:58:10|brentswain38|Re: Boatdesign.net|Customs offices have the big book that you are free to drop in and look at any time to see what any duties are. Brent - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > The thing to do if you are importing something like that is to have > a look at the 'Tariff'.This sets out the headings under which goods > are classified.I'm not sure if it's available at the public library > but they should be able to get hold of a copy or it may well be > available under a .gov website.When I worked in Customs 40 years ago > the raised eyebrows (and subsequent nasty queries) were occasioned by > shipping agents who were trying to get things into a lower duty > category than they were entitled to. > > So if the duty on part completed boats is 20% and fabricated tanks > is 10% then you might get an invoice (and a court case) raised as well > as the eyebrows.However there is usually a miscellaneous category at > the end of each tariff chapter,usually at a slightly higher rate of > duty in my day,which might be worth looking at > > cheers > > andy airey > > Ps Someone(not me) raised an entry for 20 tons of pigeon semen as an > April Fools joke and got it into the system but it was intercepted > before it got into the trade statistics > > > > > Useful info Andy, thanks. > > I'd never imported anything other than the usual parcels via Ebay, so > I found breaking such new ground to be a vertical learning curve. > Other than having my bags routinely searched, I haven't had much > contact with UK Customs myself, but over the last few years they've > developed a rather bad press due to their 'over-zealousness' regarding > the importation of alcohol and tobacco products into Britain from > mainland Europe, and got themselves a reputation for being a law unto > themselves. They illegally seized (and then auctioned-off !) a large > number of vehicles used by so-called 'smugglers', who were > enterprising Brits operating within EU laws, and UK Customs were duly > taken to court and lost. Dunno how punitive they are since that ruling. > > I wasn't totally surprised at the lack of enthusiasm from shipping > agents, as I found the same lack of enterprising spirit here when > trying to source large steel sheets. > > But it was the EU RCD which was the big kill-joy - essentially the > rules require that a home-built boat be constructed entirely within EU > territory, and to be built from beginning to completion by one > designated person with only token outside assistance being permitted. > Any sale which takes place prior to commissioning (and indeed 4 years > AFTER that) renders the owner of the craft liable to submit a full set > of documentation for EU type-approval, identical to that required for > a mass-produced vessel. And the tests necessary to compile that kind > of documentation would cost tens of thousands of pounds. > > I don't know of anyone who has fallen foul of the EU RCD, but I didn't > much fancy being the first ... > > cheers, Colin > | 17663|17655|2008-06-24 14:02:51|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house|I think an aluminium pilot house is an excellent way to go. Bolt it on with plenty of rubber and goop to avoid contact and electrolysis. You can check for contact with a multimeter. I have often thought , if you bend single piece to make up the sides and the cabin top , when you spring the camber in the top , the angles at the corners will be just right to eliminate the weld there. I'd weld a stainless flange to the deck to bolt the cabin onto , reducing the chance of leaks there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > has anyone used an aluminum cabin/pilot house on a steel hull/deck? > i've just about finished putting on my top decking (3mm steel) on my BS 31 > > I'm considering making the pilot house/cabin out of aluminum > put a steel lip around the deck then bolt or rivet the aluminum cabin on > using a nuoprene gasket or elastomer sealant > > i'm building outside but next to a large shed it's too small for my boat but > large enough for a cabin top w.r.t. mig welding > > i had a mate put the cabin top on Rhino a 3d CAD package > so as to develop out all the plates. Once plasma cut it should be pretty accurate > he's also a gun with the mig > > going about it this way i hope to save a bit of time, hire a small crane then just drop in on. > plus i will be able to remove around 150kg from the top > and put this in the keel. > > does this sound like a reasonable option? > i'm looking at ordering the aluminum in about 2 weeks > > cheers > shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 3:55:43 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boatdesign.net > > Scroll down to boatbuilding, then look for metal boatbuiulding. click > on to it and go to realistic scantlings. > I don't do any other input on the site, but challenges have to be met. > Thanks > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vic_lub" wrote: > > > > I follow boatdesign forums everyday, thats actaully how i ended up > > find this great site... > > But i cant seem to find the posts being mentioned... > > Could you post a link for me? > > Thanks > > Vic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Yep things shure got heated up there. They are still nit pickin > > back and > > > forth. At least they slacked off on the hillbilly coments > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that > > none of > > > > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same > > Mike > > > > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > > > > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built > > and > > > > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal > > > > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > > > > Thanks > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17664|17664|2008-06-24 14:12:00|James Pronk|304 stainless|I have some 2"x.090 304 stainless steel pipe that came out of a soda plant. Looking to build some boat things with it, but I think it is to light? I can always trade it for 316. Thanks, James Pronk.| 17665|17655|2008-06-24 14:15:16|James Pronk|Re: aluminium pilot house|Would you weld on any fittings that you would want out of aluminium? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I think an aluminium pilot house is an excellent way to go. Bolt it on > with plenty of rubber and goop to avoid contact and electrolysis. You > can check for contact with a multimeter. > I have often thought , if you bend single piece to make up the sides > and the cabin top , when you spring the camber in the top , the angles > at the corners will be just right to eliminate the weld there. I'd > weld a stainless flange to the deck to bolt the cabin onto , reducing > the chance of leaks there. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > has anyone used an aluminum cabin/pilot house on a steel hull/deck? > > i've just about finished putting on my top decking (3mm steel) on my > BS 31 > > > > I'm considering making the pilot house/cabin out of aluminum > > put a steel lip around the deck then bolt or rivet the aluminum > cabin on > > using a nuoprene gasket or elastomer sealant > > > > i'm building outside but next to a large shed it's too small for my > boat but > > large enough for a cabin top w.r.t. mig welding > > > > i had a mate put the cabin top on Rhino a 3d CAD package > > so as to develop out all the plates. Once plasma cut it should be > pretty accurate > > he's also a gun with the mig > > > > going about it this way i hope to save a bit of time, hire a small > crane then just drop in on. > > plus i will be able to remove around 150kg from the top > > and put this in the keel. > > > > does this sound like a reasonable option? > > i'm looking at ordering the aluminum in about 2 weeks > > > > cheers > > shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 3:55:43 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boatdesign.net > > > > Scroll down to boatbuilding, then look for metal boatbuiulding. click > > on to it and go to realistic scantlings. > > I don't do any other input on the site, but challenges have to be met. > > Thanks > > Brent > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vic_lub" wrote: > > > > > > I follow boatdesign forums everyday, thats actaully how i ended up > > > find this great site... > > > But i cant seem to find the posts being mentioned... > > > Could you post a link for me? > > > Thanks > > > Vic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > > > Yep things shure got heated up there. They are still nit pickin > > > back and > > > > forth. At least they slacked off on the hillbilly coments > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that > > > none of > > > > > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same > > > Mike > > > > > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > > > > > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built > > > and > > > > > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal > > > > > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17666|17655|2008-06-24 17:23:11|polaris041|Re: aluminium pilot house|Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for a reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can direct me to it. Pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you weld >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the source >right now. :) | 17667|17655|2008-06-24 18:09:40|James|Re: aluminium pilot house|I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding " , it`s in the states but has some info on the strip. james On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for a > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > direct me to it. > Pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you weld > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the source > >right now. :) > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17668|17655|2008-06-24 18:10:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 09:23:10PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for a > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > direct me to it. Odd, I don't remember it being that hard to find - I really was feeling kinda lazy. There seem to be lots of references, including a lot of stuff on shipboard welding, using these; the industry name for them appears to be 'transition couplings' or 'transition joints'. The first hit is a patent application from 1977: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4099661.html A little further down is a NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) document that cites the Dana Corporation as the developer of bimetallic bonding technology and a source of aluminum-to-steel tech for car manufacturers: http://statusreports.atp.nist.gov/reports/95-02-0055TEXT.html ThomasNet lists a number of manufacturers for transition couplings: http://www.thomasnet.com/products/transition-couplings-20410668-1.html I quote: Ershigs, Inc. - Bellingham, WA Has the ability to manufacturer couplings by using inertia welding. Inertia welding can join similar & dissimilar materials without using other alloys, flux or impurities. Can weld low carbon steel to stainless, aluminum, tool steel, alloy steel, boron steel, high carbon steel & 17-4 PH stainless.... Regal Technology Corp. - Columbus, OH Friction welding services, dissimilar metal combinations, cryo & transition couplings, stainless to aluminum, copper, nickel, titanium, tungsten, magnesium. Short & long runs, ferrous & nonferrous. Friction welder machine design, fabrication, retrofit, & services. CNC & specialty machine tool... Bearing Industrial & Supplies - Eden Prairie, MN Full Strength Leak Free Bi-Metal Transition Fittings Allows Use Of Conventional Welding To Join Stainless Steel To Aluminum, Titanium, Copper & Many Others I realize this is all US-based stuff, but I'm sure that some of these people either do business internationally or can recommend someone in your area. Good luck! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17669|17655|2008-06-24 18:29:36|Tom Mann|Re: aluminium pilot house|Hello Shane I cant see any reason not to use the aluminum, as long as the two metals are isolated from each other. What grade aluminum are you planning on using? I think I would trust bolts more than rivets Tom On 6/24/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > has anyone used an aluminum cabin/pilot house on a steel hull/deck? > i've just about finished putting on my top decking (3mm steel) on my BS 31 > > I'm considering making the pilot house/cabin out of aluminum > put a steel lip around the deck then bolt or rivet the aluminum cabin on > using a nuoprene gasket or elastomer sealant > > i'm building outside but next to a large shed it's too small for my boat > but > large enough for a cabin top w.r.t. mig welding > > i had a mate put the cabin top on Rhino a 3d CAD package > so as to develop out all the plates. Once plasma cut it should be pretty > accurate > he's also a gun with the mig > > going about it this way i hope to save a bit of time, hire a small crane > then just drop in on. > plus i will be able to remove around 150kg from the top > and put this in the keel. > > does this sound like a reasonable option? > i'm looking at ordering the aluminum in about 2 weeks > > cheers > shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 3:55:43 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boatdesign.net > > Scroll down to boatbuilding, then look for metal boatbuiulding. click > on to it and go to realistic scantlings. > I don't do any other input on the site, but challenges have to be met. > Thanks > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vic_lub" wrote: > > > > I follow boatdesign forums everyday, thats actaully how i ended up > > find this great site... > > But i cant seem to find the posts being mentioned... > > Could you post a link for me? > > Thanks > > Vic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Yep things shure got heated up there. They are still nit pickin > > back and > > > forth. At least they slacked off on the hillbilly coments > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns that > > none of > > > > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the same > > Mike > > > > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have people > > > > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have built > > and > > > > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on metal > > > > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > > > > Thanks > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17670|17655|2008-06-24 18:32:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 05:55:32PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Monel is a type of bronze and would seriously corrode both steel and > aluminium . Better to use stainless type 316 . On top of aluminum? Seems like that would corrode pretty badly. I suppose you could just use a heavy Teflon or Delrin washer between the SS and the Al and avoid the problem completely. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17671|17655|2008-06-24 19:52:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: aluminium pilot house|You really want to use flange washers. A flange washer has cylinder attached that goes down into the bolt hole and centers the bolt so it can't touch the sides. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: "Origami Boat list" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 6:31 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 05:55:32PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: >> Monel is a type of bronze and would seriously corrode both steel and >> aluminium . Better to use stainless type 316 . > > On top of aluminum? Seems like that would corrode pretty badly. I > suppose you could just use a heavy Teflon or Delrin washer between the > SS and the Al and avoid the problem completely. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17672|17655|2008-06-24 19:55:19|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 07:51:54PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > You really want to use flange washers. A flange washer has cylinder > attached that goes down into the bolt hole and centers the bolt so it can't > touch the sides. Man, there have been _lots_ of times when I could have used those. I need to find a good local source for them and stock up. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17673|17655|2008-06-24 20:07:03|Gary H. Lucas|Re: aluminium pilot house|McMaster Carr website, page 3180. Great service. If you don't like what you bought send it back for a full refund no questions asked. I've been buying from them for over 20 years. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: "Origami Boat list" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 07:51:54PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> You really want to use flange washers. A flange washer has cylinder >> attached that goes down into the bolt hole and centers the bolt so it >> can't >> touch the sides. > > Man, there have been _lots_ of times when I could have used those. I > need to find a good local source for them and stock up. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17674|17655|2008-06-24 21:08:55|Shane Duncan|Re: aluminium pilot house|read an article the other day   Triclad bi metallic strips structural transition joints (SJT) distrbuted by Merren Andre La Porte BV Veilinggweg 2 PO box 2058 5300 CB Zaltbommel the Netherlands   i was told that it was bloody expensive stuff though cheers    ----- Original Message ---- From: polaris041 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 6:23:10 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for a reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can direct me to it. Pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you weld >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the source >right now. :) ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17675|17655|2008-06-24 23:15:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 08:06:48PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > McMaster Carr website, page 3180. Great service. If you don't like what > you bought send it back for a full refund no questions asked. I've been > buying from them for over 20 years. Good recommendation - thanks, Gary! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17676|17676|2008-06-25 04:11:37|karenlittleton2008|New Free-Stuff to Collect (23rd June)|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://freebiesweekly.blogspot.com/2008_06_22_archive.html When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great weekend!| 17677|17676|2008-06-25 04:11:38|karenlittleton2008|New Free-Stuff to Collect (23rd June)|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://freebiesweekly.blogspot.com/2008_06_22_archive.html When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great weekend!| 17678|17678|2008-06-25 06:23:59|ndr_jenna|%@%.Watch Upcoming Free Indian Movies Online 100% Free.%@%|%@%.Watch Upcoming Free Indian Movies Online 100% Free.%@% Its One Of The Best Site To Watch All New Movies Online! Daly Update All New Movies 4 U! Here Is The Link To Watch All Free-Movies! CLICK THIS LINK :: http://Free-IndianMovies.notlong.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17679|17678|2008-06-25 06:30:44|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: %@%.Watch Upcoming Free Indian Movies Online 100% Free.%@%|How things have changed it used to be cowboy and indian movies when i was a lad ,never thought the cowboys would loose. No offense meant i love all human beings just could not eat a whole one. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17680|17659|2008-06-25 08:22:59|ANDREW AIREY|Re: steel deck and cabin top VS wooden deck|If you were thinking about the Wylo II,which is a world cruising self build boat,with quite a few examples on the water,the 33ft version uses wooden decks for weight saving but the 36ft version uses steel.Drawings and description in the appendices to Annie Hill's book 'Voyaging on a small income' which is well worth buying anyway.(It's also got a reprint of 'The £200 millionaire' so its worth getting for that alone since you'll pay several times the amount you would pay for Annies book for a Weston Martyr original).Non of which invalidates Brent's criticisms of wooden decks although if you were to put a steel deck on a boat designed for wood then you might have to check the stability calculations cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17681|17626|2008-06-25 11:11:13|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Boatdesign.net|My experiences of the Customs and Excise are now fairly well out of date since I left the department nearly 30 years ago to set up an engineering company with a mate to supply bits to a firm in the mining industry - about a year or so before Maggie locked horns with Arthur Scargill and the NUM.But I do occasionally bump into old friends and note with some amusement that all the current major cockups - now that HM C & E have been amalgamated with the Inland Revenue - involve things that the Inland Revenue have had a hand in.The old ethos was the protection of the revenue - and since the department has been in the game for the best part of a millenium (Departmental tradition has it that America was actually named after John Ameryk,the Collector of Customs at Bristol who helped to finance John Cabot) we'd seen it all before.Things like seizing vehicles are mainly one of deterrence,although in the areas where I had an involvement - road fual evasion(red diesel) and car taxes/duties - the seizures were mostly nominal and the vehicle handed back after the miscreant(lovely word that) had coughed up the duty or taxes evaded plus about 10% on top to discourage him from doing it again.I've no direct knowledge of the actions of the department over the importation of tobacco and wine from the rest of the EU but it would probably have hinged on what was regarded as for personal use - the departments interpretation being considerably less elastic than that of the importers.For an elastic(sorry) interpretation of personal use you have the bloke who tried to import 100gross of condoms through Hull duty free claiming personal use.Me bringing back half a dozen litres of red plonk is one thing - bringing half a ton of cigs back in the back of a van and flogging them off round the council estates is another - and there was enough of that went on to seriously affect the revenue so they would have had to do something. The point is that the protection of the Revenue was what was regarded as the important thing and other matters might be regarded as less important and not something to get uptight about unless a political spotlight is being shone on them - and there is a lot less physical examination examination of goods involved now than there was even in my day,so if his nibs ever gets round to nuking New York or London you can bet that the device will come in in a shipping container.Just to cheer you up. I didn't realise that the RCD was that restrictive in that you had to nominate the boatbuilder,although the restriction on sale is for 5 years rather than 4.I'm looking at a design for a swim headed stumpy rigged Thames sailing barge from about 1850 which ought to qualify under the historical exemption,thats if I don't go down the origami route.What you do of course is to sign up for a welding course at the local Tech so that at least you know which is the warm end of the welding rod and then learn the Polish for 'Wanted,time served welder,preferably Gdansk trained' so you can put an ad in the local polish shop(choice of 5 where I live) and then pay cash cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17682|17659|2008-06-25 12:23:48|martin demers|Re: steel deck and cabin top VS wooden deck|yes that is the one I was thinking of, they propose the wooden deck for one of the two keel option. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: andyairey@... > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:22:56 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel deck and cabin top VS wooden deck > > > If you were thinking about the Wylo II,which is a world cruising self build boat,with quite a few examples on the water,the 33ft version uses wooden decks for weight saving but the 36ft version uses steel.Drawings and description in the appendices to Annie Hill's book 'Voyaging on a small income' which is well worth buying anyway.(It's also got a reprint of 'The £200 millionaire' so its worth getting for that alone since you'll pay several times the amount you would pay for Annies book for a Weston Martyr original).Non of which invalidates Brent's criticisms of wooden decks although if you were to put a steel deck on a boat designed for wood then you might have to check the stability calculations > cheers > andy airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________| 17683|17626|2008-06-25 13:20:21|James|Re: Boatdesign.net|Sorry - i came late to this , and am not clued up -- are you telling me that i cannot build an origami, swain 36 , for myself here in Scotland ? james On 6/25/08, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > My experiences of the Customs and Excise are now fairly well out of date > since I left the department nearly 30 years ago to set up an engineering > company with a mate to supply bits to a firm in the mining industry - about > a year or so before Maggie locked horns with Arthur Scargill and the NUM.But > I do occasionally bump into old friends and note with some amusement that > all the current major cockups - now that HM C & E have been amalgamated with > the Inland Revenue - involve things that the Inland Revenue have had a hand > in.The old ethos was the protection of the revenue - and since the > department has been in the game for the best part of a millenium > (Departmental tradition has it that America was actually named after John > Ameryk,the Collector of Customs at Bristol who helped to finance John Cabot) > we'd seen it all before.Things like seizing vehicles are mainly one of > deterrence,although in the areas where I had an involvement - road fual > evasion(red > diesel) and car taxes/duties - the seizures were mostly nominal and the > vehicle handed back after the miscreant(lovely word that) had coughed up the > duty or taxes evaded plus about 10% on top to discourage him from doing it > again.I've no direct knowledge of the actions of the department over the > importation of tobacco and wine from the rest of the EU but it would > probably have hinged on what was regarded as for personal use - the > departments interpretation being considerably less elastic than that of the > importers.For an elastic(sorry) interpretation of personal use you have the > bloke who tried to import 100gross of condoms through Hull duty free > claiming personal use.Me bringing back half a dozen litres of red plonk is > one thing - bringing half a ton of cigs back in the back of a van and > flogging them off round the council estates is another - and there was > enough of that went on to seriously affect the revenue so they would have > had to do something. > The point is that the protection of the Revenue was what was regarded as > the important thing and other matters might be regarded as less important > and not something to get uptight about unless a political spotlight is being > shone on them - and there is a lot less physical examination examination of > goods involved now than there was even in my day,so if his nibs ever gets > round to nuking New York or London you can bet that the device will come in > in a shipping container.Just to cheer you up. > I didn't realise that the RCD was that restrictive in that you had to > nominate the boatbuilder,although the restriction on sale is for 5 > years rather than 4.I'm looking at a design for a swim headed stumpy rigged > Thames sailing barge from about 1850 which ought to qualify under the > historical exemption,thats if I don't go down the origami route.What you do > of course is to sign up for a welding course at the local Tech so that at > least you know which is the warm end of the welding rod and then learn the > Polish for 'Wanted,time served welder,preferably Gdansk trained' so you can > put an ad in the local polish shop(choice of 5 where I live) and then pay > cash > cheers > andy airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17684|17626|2008-06-25 16:44:53|brentswain38|Re: Boatdesign.net|For your own use in your own backyard you can build whatever you want. Just do it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > Sorry - i came late to this , and am not clued up -- are you telling me that > i cannot build an origami, swain 36 , for myself here in Scotland ? > james > > > On 6/25/08, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > My experiences of the Customs and Excise are now fairly well out of date > > since I left the department nearly 30 years ago to set up an engineering > > company with a mate to supply bits to a firm in the mining industry - about > > a year or so before Maggie locked horns with Arthur Scargill and the NUM.But > > I do occasionally bump into old friends and note with some amusement that > > all the current major cockups - now that HM C & E have been amalgamated with > > the Inland Revenue - involve things that the Inland Revenue have had a hand > > in.The old ethos was the protection of the revenue - and since the > > department has been in the game for the best part of a millenium > > (Departmental tradition has it that America was actually named after John > > Ameryk,the Collector of Customs at Bristol who helped to finance John Cabot) > > we'd seen it all before.Things like seizing vehicles are mainly one of > > deterrence,although in the areas where I had an involvement - road fual > > evasion(red > > diesel) and car taxes/duties - the seizures were mostly nominal and the > > vehicle handed back after the miscreant(lovely word that) had coughed up the > > duty or taxes evaded plus about 10% on top to discourage him from doing it > > again.I've no direct knowledge of the actions of the department over the > > importation of tobacco and wine from the rest of the EU but it would > > probably have hinged on what was regarded as for personal use - the > > departments interpretation being considerably less elastic than that of the > > importers.For an elastic(sorry) interpretation of personal use you have the > > bloke who tried to import 100gross of condoms through Hull duty free > > claiming personal use.Me bringing back half a dozen litres of red plonk is > > one thing - bringing half a ton of cigs back in the back of a van and > > flogging them off round the council estates is another - and there was > > enough of that went on to seriously affect the revenue so they would have > > had to do something. > > The point is that the protection of the Revenue was what was regarded as > > the important thing and other matters might be regarded as less important > > and not something to get uptight about unless a political spotlight is being > > shone on them - and there is a lot less physical examination examination of > > goods involved now than there was even in my day,so if his nibs ever gets > > round to nuking New York or London you can bet that the device will come in > > in a shipping container.Just to cheer you up. > > I didn't realise that the RCD was that restrictive in that you had to > > nominate the boatbuilder,although the restriction on sale is for 5 > > years rather than 4.I'm looking at a design for a swim headed stumpy rigged > > Thames sailing barge from about 1850 which ought to qualify under the > > historical exemption,thats if I don't go down the origami route.What you do > > of course is to sign up for a welding course at the local Tech so that at > > least you know which is the warm end of the welding rod and then learn the > > Polish for 'Wanted,time served welder,preferably Gdansk trained' so you can > > put an ad in the local polish shop(choice of 5 where I live) and then pay > > cash > > cheers > > andy airey > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17685|17659|2008-06-25 16:47:33|brentswain38|Re: steel deck and cabin top VS wooden deck|Simple solution, build a boat designed with a steel deck. Altho I wouldn't recommend making the change in material at the hull deck joint, for reasons already given, switching to aluminium for the cabin sounds like a great way to go. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > yes that is the one I was thinking of, they propose the wooden deck for one of the two keel option. > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: andyairey@... > > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:22:56 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel deck and cabin top VS wooden deck > > > > > > If you were thinking about the Wylo II,which is a world cruising self build boat,with quite a few examples on the water,the 33ft version uses wooden decks for weight saving but the 36ft version uses steel.Drawings and description in the appendices to Annie Hill's book 'Voyaging on a small income' which is well worth buying anyway.(It's also got a reprint of 'The £200 millionaire' so its worth getting for that alone since you'll pay several times the amount you would pay for Annies book for a Weston Martyr original).Non of which invalidates Brent's criticisms of wooden decks although if you were to put a steel deck on a boat designed for wood then you might have to check the stability calculations > > cheers > > andy airey > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 17686|17655|2008-06-25 16:50:12|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house|Yes I would weld all the fittings on in aluminium, then put it on the boat. Steel decks and aluminiumn cabin may be lighter in total than a wooden deck and cabin anyway. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Would you weld on any fittings that you would want out of aluminium? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I think an aluminium pilot house is an excellent way to go. Bolt it > on > > with plenty of rubber and goop to avoid contact and electrolysis. > You > > can check for contact with a multimeter. > > I have often thought , if you bend single piece to make up the > sides > > and the cabin top , when you spring the camber in the top , the > angles > > at the corners will be just right to eliminate the weld there. I'd > > weld a stainless flange to the deck to bolt the cabin onto , > reducing > > the chance of leaks there. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > > wrote: > > > > > > has anyone used an aluminum cabin/pilot house on a steel > hull/deck? > > > i've just about finished putting on my top decking (3mm steel) on > my > > BS 31 > > > > > > I'm considering making the pilot house/cabin out of aluminum > > > put a steel lip around the deck then bolt or rivet the aluminum > > cabin on > > > using a nuoprene gasket or elastomer sealant > > > > > > i'm building outside but next to a large shed it's too small for > my > > boat but > > > large enough for a cabin top w.r.t. mig welding > > > > > > i had a mate put the cabin top on Rhino a 3d CAD package > > > so as to develop out all the plates. Once plasma cut it should be > > pretty accurate > > > he's also a gun with the mig > > > > > > going about it this way i hope to save a bit of time, hire a small > > crane then just drop in on. > > > plus i will be able to remove around 150kg from the top > > > and put this in the keel. > > > > > > does this sound like a reasonable option? > > > i'm looking at ordering the aluminum in about 2 weeks > > > > > > cheers > > > shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 3:55:43 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boatdesign.net > > > > > > Scroll down to boatbuilding, then look for metal boatbuiulding. > click > > > on to it and go to realistic scantlings. > > > I don't do any other input on the site, but challenges have to be > met. > > > Thanks > > > Brent > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vic_lub" wrote: > > > > > > > > I follow boatdesign forums everyday, thats actaully how i ended > up > > > > find this great site... > > > > But i cant seem to find the posts being mentioned... > > > > Could you post a link for me? > > > > Thanks > > > > Vic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Yep things shure got heated up there. They are still nit > pickin > > > > back and > > > > > forth. At least they slacked off on the hillbilly coments > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/18/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a guy called Mike on boatdesign.net who claimns > that > > > > none of > > > > > > my designs have ever been built. I suspect that he is the > same > > > > Mike > > > > > > who stabbed Alex in the back. He seems to actually have > people > > > > > > believing him. I'd appreciate if any of you guys who have > built > > > > and > > > > > > cruised in my designs drop in and give some input. It's on > metal > > > > > > boatbuilding, realistic scantlings. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 17687|17655|2008-06-25 16:55:08|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house|How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the aluminium from the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? It appears that bolt on is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding " , it`s in the states but has > some info on the strip. james > > > On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for a > > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in > > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > > direct me to it. > > Pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you weld > > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some > > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the source > > >right now. :) > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17688|17655|2008-06-25 21:18:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 08:55:07PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the aluminium from > the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? The whole point of those strips is the joining of the two metals while preventing electrolysis; the problem isn't so much the electrical isolation but the difference in galvanic potential at the interface between the two. From what I've read, the initial designs failed because they had tiny gaps between the two metals; nowadays, with techniques like friction-stir welding, there's essentially no chance of that - there's no interface, since the two metals are completely melded - so there's no electrolysis. Car makers are using tons of these things. > It appears that bolt on > is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in > stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. That may well be a better way to go, for reasons other than electrolysis. I like the idea of, say, a pilothouse that can be removed if necessary, because (depending on the design) that may make it more convenient to pull the engine. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17689|17626|2008-06-26 04:32:36|James|Re: Boatdesign.net|my backyard is big , but not that big . j On 6/25/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > For your own use in your own backyard you can build whatever you want. > Just do it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > James wrote: > > > > Sorry - i came late to this , and am not clued up -- are you telling > me that > > i cannot build an origami, swain 36 , for myself here in Scotland ? > > james > > > > > > On 6/25/08, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > > > My experiences of the Customs and Excise are now fairly well out > of date > > > since I left the department nearly 30 years ago to set up an > engineering > > > company with a mate to supply bits to a firm in the mining > industry - about > > > a year or so before Maggie locked horns with Arthur Scargill and > the NUM.But > > > I do occasionally bump into old friends and note with some > amusement that > > > all the current major cockups - now that HM C & E have been > amalgamated with > > > the Inland Revenue - involve things that the Inland Revenue have > had a hand > > > in.The old ethos was the protection of the revenue - and since the > > > department has been in the game for the best part of a millenium > > > (Departmental tradition has it that America was actually named > after John > > > Ameryk,the Collector of Customs at Bristol who helped to finance > John Cabot) > > > we'd seen it all before.Things like seizing vehicles are mainly one of > > > deterrence,although in the areas where I had an involvement - road > fual > > > evasion(red > > > diesel) and car taxes/duties - the seizures were mostly nominal > and the > > > vehicle handed back after the miscreant(lovely word that) had > coughed up the > > > duty or taxes evaded plus about 10% on top to discourage him from > doing it > > > again.I've no direct knowledge of the actions of the department > over the > > > importation of tobacco and wine from the rest of the EU but it would > > > probably have hinged on what was regarded as for personal use - the > > > departments interpretation being considerably less elastic than > that of the > > > importers.For an elastic(sorry) interpretation of personal use you > have the > > > bloke who tried to import 100gross of condoms through Hull duty free > > > claiming personal use.Me bringing back half a dozen litres of red > plonk is > > > one thing - bringing half a ton of cigs back in the back of a van and > > > flogging them off round the council estates is another - and there was > > > enough of that went on to seriously affect the revenue so they > would have > > > had to do something. > > > The point is that the protection of the Revenue was what was > regarded as > > > the important thing and other matters might be regarded as less > important > > > and not something to get uptight about unless a political > spotlight is being > > > shone on them - and there is a lot less physical examination > examination of > > > goods involved now than there was even in my day,so if his nibs > ever gets > > > round to nuking New York or London you can bet that the device > will come in > > > in a shipping container.Just to cheer you up. > > > I didn't realise that the RCD was that restrictive in that you had to > > > nominate the boatbuilder,although the restriction on sale is for 5 > > > years rather than 4.I'm looking at a design for a swim headed > stumpy rigged > > > Thames sailing barge from about 1850 which ought to qualify under the > > > historical exemption,thats if I don't go down the origami > route.What you do > > > of course is to sign up for a welding course at the local Tech so > that at > > > least you know which is the warm end of the welding rod and then > learn the > > > Polish for 'Wanted,time served welder,preferably Gdansk trained' > so you can > > > put an ad in the local polish shop(choice of 5 where I live) and > then pay > > > cash > > > cheers > > > andy airey > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17690|17626|2008-06-26 05:51:26|sae140|Re: Boatdesign.net|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > Sorry - i came late to this , and am not clued up -- are you telling me that > i cannot build an origami, swain 36 , for myself here in Scotland ? > james > Yes, you can - from steel plate. But you can't purchase a part-built hull (of a Swain or any other design) and finish it yourself under existing EU rules. Also - if you do decide to build from steel plate - make sure you keep all the VAT receipts for the steel, which you'll need to provide when applying for VAT-paid status. (Another EU trap). Colin| 17691|17626|2008-06-26 06:27:54|sae140|Re: Boatdesign.net|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > Sorry - i came late to this , and am not clued up -- are you telling > me that > > i cannot build an origami, swain 36 , for myself here in Scotland ? > > james > > > > Yes, you can - from steel plate. But you can't purchase a part-built > hull (of a Swain or any other design) and finish it yourself under > existing EU rules. Also - if you do decide to build from steel plate > - make sure you keep all the VAT receipts for the steel, which you'll > need to provide when applying for VAT-paid status. (Another EU trap). > > Colin > Forgot to mention - if you REALLY want to know more about the EU RCD, and need links etc. to the relevant documents, checkout my post 5765 (Oct.2004).| 17692|17626|2008-06-26 14:37:22|James|Re: Boatdesign.net|I don`t want to hijack this thread , but would like to ask you a question about VAT if i may ? -- simply ! , when i take my present boat , a 1966 westerly , to belgium and france next year , will i have to prove vat paid status , even tho no vat was paid or invented (!) in 1966 ? cheers , james On 6/26/08, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > James wrote: > > > > Sorry - i came late to this , and am not clued up -- are you telling > me that > > i cannot build an origami, swain 36 , for myself here in Scotland ? > > james > > > > Yes, you can - from steel plate. But you can't purchase a part-built > hull (of a Swain or any other design) and finish it yourself under > existing EU rules. Also - if you do decide to build from steel plate > - make sure you keep all the VAT receipts for the steel, which you'll > need to provide when applying for VAT-paid status. (Another EU trap). > > Colin > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17693|17655|2008-06-26 15:22:32|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house|Corrosion at the interface is only one problem. I'm concerned about corrosion on the surface of the aluminium due to it's contact with steel. I sailed to New Zealand from BC with two steel outboard tanks in the cockpit. The one with a tiny piece of copper pipe soldered in corroded badly , whereas the one with only steel fittings had only a slight surface rust. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 08:55:07PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the aluminium from > > the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? > > The whole point of those strips is the joining of the two metals while > preventing electrolysis; the problem isn't so much the electrical > isolation but the difference in galvanic potential at the interface > between the two. From what I've read, the initial designs failed because > they had tiny gaps between the two metals; nowadays, with techniques > like friction-stir welding, there's essentially no chance of that - > there's no interface, since the two metals are completely melded - so > there's no electrolysis. Car makers are using tons of these things. > > > It appears that bolt on > > is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in > > stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. > > That may well be a better way to go, for reasons other than > electrolysis. I like the idea of, say, a pilothouse that can be removed > if necessary, because (depending on the design) that may make it more > convenient to pull the engine. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17694|17655|2008-06-26 15:35:34|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 07:22:31PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Corrosion at the interface is only one problem. I'm concerned about > corrosion on the surface of the aluminium due to it's contact with steel. You've got me, Brent; I really have no idea. I'd guess that it's not a problem - car manufacturers would have screamed if it accelerated rust, and the stuff is used quite a lot in modern shipbuilding - but I personally have no experience with it and can't guarantee anything. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17695|17655|2008-06-26 18:08:48|J Fisher|Re: aluminium pilot house|Galvanic corrosion only happens in contact with an electrolyte, i.e. Salt water. Thus its a problem on boats, but not as much on cars unless you live in the rust belt. Even then its not as much of an issue since engines are often aluminum with steel bolts. Note that ford did have an issue with some diesel engines in the cooling system and you have to treat the coolant to prevent corrosion. John -------Original Message------- From: Ben Okopnik Date: 6/26/2008 12:35:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 07:22:31PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Corrosion at the interface is only one problem. I'm concerned about > corrosion on the surface of the aluminium due to it's contact with steel. You've got me, Brent; I really have no idea. I'd guess that it's not a problem - car manufacturers would have screamed if it accelerated rust, and the stuff is used quite a lot in modern shipbuilding - but I personally have no experience with it and can't guarantee anything. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17696|17696|2008-06-27 02:56:24|matchdidfriends|I wanna get to know you!|You're really cute. I wanna get to know you. Here are my profile with many photos Reach me here. http://nhgmjcb.blogspot.com/| 17697|17697|2008-06-27 03:05:49|rahmatak argo|Drugs|*Drugs* visit the Album *What should I do with my drug-addicted brother?* *MY BROTHER IS TAKING ECSTASY DRUGS AND I MADE HIM UNDERSTAND IT IS HARAAM. hE IS SAYING IT IS WRONG BUIT IT IS DIFFERENT TO WINE AND HE IS PERSISTING IN IT. * Praise be to Allaah. No doubt your brother is in a state of major crisis, and we ask Allaah to help you to deal with this crisis. We advise you to be kind and gentle when you deal with him and advise him, because attention must be paid to his condition, just as with all other sick people � whether they are suffering from a disease of the mind or of the body. You have to do everything you can to stop him from having the drugs and to stop him from meeting the bad friends who are giving or selling him the stuff and thus helping him to do wrong. You should not give him anything he wants, if you can withhold it from him, until he gives up what he is doing. We advise you to consult with a specialist doctor who can treat him properly until he gets better and gives up this habit. If he has young sons or daughters, or brothers and sisters, we suggest that they should also advise him and denounce what he is doing. Perhaps then he will give up because he feels ashamed in front of his children or siblings. You could describe to him, with the support of other people's testimonials, how he looks and behaves when he is in an intoxicated state and is out of his mind, so that when he comes back to his senses he will see the evil sin that he has committed. Do not forget to pray to Allaah to help him to get rid of this habit. Try to make du'aa' during the last third of the night, and may Allaah show you the way out. We ask Allaah to guide him and to give you patience. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad. Islam Q&A Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17698|17626|2008-06-27 06:15:57|sae140|Re: Boatdesign.net|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > I don`t want to hijack this thread , but would like to ask you a question > about VAT if i may ? -- simply ! , when i take my present boat , a 1966 > westerly , to belgium and france next year , will i have to prove vat paid > status , even tho no vat was paid or invented (!) in 1966 ? cheers , > james > Hi James You'd think the answer would be an emphatic 'NO', but there is a very sneaky clause in the EU VAT rules which states that if a vessel is sold outside of the EU economic area (which of course has constantly changed since it's inception) and subsequently re-purchased back into the EU, then VAT is liable on the market value of the vessel - whether or not VAT had originally been paid. (so that can mean a double-dose of VAT) The vessel is essentially treated as a new importation, albeit of second-hand value. At least that's the theory. So - although your vessel was never subjected to VAT, it *can* be subjected to VAT subsequently, and - in theory - the onus is upon you to prove that the vessel has never had any owners other than those located within the EU. Now on face value that may seem a pretty unlikely scenario, but bear in mind that over the years many owners have registered their boats in the non-EU territories of the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands for personal taxation purposes, and any such vessels would certainly fall foul of this VAT ruling. Ok - that's the theory, but apparently the practice - especially for smaller boats - is "don't worry about it". See: http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/legal/vatupdate.htm "The results of our recent VAT survey have shown that there appears to be only a relatively small number of members being boarded and checked for proof of VAT status, little evidence of members being impounded and no evidence of any UK resident being fined for lack of VAT paperwork whilst cruising abroad." Of course, you could always apply to the Customs for a VAT-exemption certificate if you are still concerned about this. Hope this helps Colin| 17699|17699|2008-06-27 10:30:15|ANDREW AIREY|Re: RCD,VAT,CJD and all that(Was boatdesign.net)|My recollection of the period before 1975 was that anyone who thought they could work a fast one with the import and export regulations,whether temporary or otherwise,with a view to evading taxes and duties, had a go at doing so.I never had anything to do with yachts,thankfully,but we set up a specialist unit in Manchester to tackle the problem with cars.The new unit referred to on the RYA site seems to be advisory,rather than advisory/enforcement as we were but the root cause will be the same - the average officer does not get enough of this sort of query to develop an expertise.This was compounded in my time by the fact that the Excise were paid on piecework and as the time allowed for this sort of query was generally insufficient to actually get the work done everyone was very happy to pass the work onto us The sophisticated fiddle in those days was to spend 4 months each in,say.France,Spain and the UK.You got all your major stuff tax free and nobody could touch you,and believe me,in the case of one extremely unpleasant,and boastfull,ex-Nazi,we had a damn good try.I don't think it was Lidice he had a hand in,but it was something similar cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17700|17626|2008-06-27 14:13:32|James|Re: Boatdesign.net|Thanks , Colin , i`m clearer on that now. Apparently c+ e don`t issue clearance certs , but not to worry , i`ll take my chances on a smile instead . james On 6/27/08, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > James wrote: > > > > I don`t want to hijack this thread , but would like to ask you a > question > > about VAT if i may ? -- simply ! , when i take my present boat , a 1966 > > westerly , to belgium and france next year , will i have to prove > vat paid > > status , even tho no vat was paid or invented (!) in 1966 ? cheers , > > james > > > > Hi James > > You'd think the answer would be an emphatic 'NO', but there is a very > sneaky clause in the EU VAT rules which states that if a vessel is > sold outside of the EU economic area (which of course has constantly > changed since it's inception) and subsequently re-purchased back into > the EU, then VAT is liable on the market value of the vessel - whether > or not VAT had originally been paid. (so that can mean a double-dose > of VAT) > The vessel is essentially treated as a new importation, albeit of > second-hand value. At least that's the theory. > > So - although your vessel was never subjected to VAT, it *can* be > subjected to VAT subsequently, and - in theory - the onus is upon you > to prove that the vessel has never had any owners other than those > located within the EU. > > Now on face value that may seem a pretty unlikely scenario, but bear > in mind that over the years many owners have registered their boats in > the non-EU territories of the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands for > personal taxation purposes, and any such vessels would certainly fall > foul of this VAT ruling. > > Ok - that's the theory, but apparently the practice - especially for > smaller boats - is "don't worry about it". > See: http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/legal/vatupdate.htm > "The results of our recent VAT survey have shown that there appears to > be only a relatively small number of members being boarded and checked > for proof of VAT status, little evidence of members being impounded > and no evidence of any UK resident being fined for lack of VAT > paperwork whilst cruising abroad." > > Of course, you could always apply to the Customs for a VAT-exemption > certificate if you are still concerned about this. > > Hope this helps > Colin > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17701|17701|2008-06-27 16:32:35|Gary Prebble|Stuffing Box (again)|Started out with the usual flax stuffing box but ended up either scoring the prop shaft (too tight) or having it too loose and lots of bilge water. Switched to the grease nipple idea but after a long motor up Johnstone Straight (despite pumping in grease as I went) ended up with a giant grease ball turd under the stuffing box and lots of really dirty bilge water. I am again considering the dripless. Is there one out there that has been a good performer? Also, any opinions about the scored shaft being a problem and whether or not all of the grease can be sufficiently cleaned out for a dripless. Thanks... Gary| 17702|17701|2008-06-27 17:06:06|Paul Wilson|Re: Stuffing Box (again)|Hi Gary, Did you try the grease on the scored shaft? I think once the shaft is scored, nothing will seal it other than switching to another type of seal or replacing the shaft. That's a really common problem and one I am so worried about I always let the box drip a lot more than recommended rather than risk letting it heat up score the shaft. When I leave the boat for a long time, I tighten the box up until there are no drips but have to make sure its loosened before I start the engine. It's a pain in the ass but worked now for over 15 years. Sorry, I can't recommend a particular brand but many people in NZ are using stuffing boxes that use lip seals. My worry is that as the shaft moves back and forth in the seal due to the flexible engine mounts and varying thrust, the lip seals will get torn up by any deposits or scale on the shaft. I think I am going to keep with my old packing style box and add a grease nipple. Its old technology but pretty reliable if you are careful with it. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Prebble Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 8:33 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box (again) Started out with the usual flax stuffing box but ended up either scoring the prop shaft (too tight) or having it too loose and lots of bilge water. Switched to the grease nipple idea but after a long motor up Johnstone Straight (despite pumping in grease as I went) ended up with a giant grease ball turd under the stuffing box and lots of really dirty bilge water. I am again considering the dripless. Is there one out there that has been a good performer? Also, any opinions about the scored shaft being a problem and whether or not all of the grease can be sufficiently cleaned out for a dripless. Thanks... Gary No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.101 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1521 - Release Date: 6/26/2008 11:20 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17703|17701|2008-06-27 17:40:10|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Stuffing Box (again)|When in the merchant navy the stern gland was always tighten whilst in port then slacken before sailing. Water was allowed to enter through the stern gland then pumped out. On my retirement a bought and now live on a narrowboat and thought the same ideas were used, not so. The gland is tighten so no water leaks through the gland and as a greasing system. I had problems with a scored shaft and spent time polishing it out not an easy job. I then had grease coming out so i found a packing that i believe as a lithium grease impregnated in it, result no problem, The shaft diameter is 1 1/2" and my top revs are about 4000rpm. On a days cruising about 6 hours one turn of the greaser seams to be all that is required. My boat is a 55ft all steel narrowboat ,not as pretty as your origamiboats but it suits me . Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17704|17701|2008-06-27 19:09:11|Paul Thompson|Re: Stuffing Box (again)|Hi Gary, I have used the PYI Inc. PSS shaftseal on La Chica since 1995 with no problems what so ever. We are going onto 13 years of use now, still running the original seal and have never had any water in the boat at all. Not a single drip. I do not motor all that often and so have only clocked up about 2000 hours over these 13 years. Most of that was during a cruise to the USA 1998 - 2000 where I a lot of motoring on the Intracoastal Waterway. Based on my experience so far, I can highly recommend this unit if you want a dripless seal. As it seals against a stainless steel rotor and not against the shaft, scoring and wear are not a problem. Have a look at these links: http://www.pyiinc.com/index.php?section=pss_shaft_seal&action=main&sn=1 http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/pss_shaft_seal They will give you an idea of what the seal is. It is not the cheapest seal but it is far from the most expensive. I do not recall what I paid for mine, but I do recall that it was not unreasonable. Regards, Paul Thompson On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 8:32 AM, Gary Prebble wrote: > Started out with the usual flax stuffing box but ended up either > scoring the prop shaft (too tight) or having it too loose and lots of > bilge water. Switched to the grease nipple idea but after a long motor > up Johnstone Straight (despite pumping in grease as I went) ended up > with a giant grease ball turd under the stuffing box and lots of really > dirty bilge water. I am again considering the dripless. Is there one > out there that has been a good performer? Also, any opinions about the > scored shaft being a problem and whether or not all of the grease can > be sufficiently cleaned out for a dripless. > > Thanks... Gary > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17705|17705|2008-06-28 02:05:46|werner.claire|Weekend Freebies (27th June)|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://freebiesweekly.blogspot.com/2008_06_25_archive.html When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great weekend!| 17706|17701|2008-06-28 08:29:07|pynrc@aol.com|Re: Stuffing Box (again)|Gary,I had the same problem some years ago, I had a grease filled stern tube with a lip seal carrier outside and in.It worked for years and then quit for some reason, and even new seals did not fix it. We were over 100 miles out in bad weather and pumping every 20 minutes. I slipped the boat, removed the shaft and degreased the inside of the tube. The dripless seal (a carbon ring spinning against a stainless flange) fits on the inside end of the stern tube on a bit of rubber pipe. It is unlikely to sit on the shaft where it has been scored by the old stuffing box.You have a little bit of latitude here. Works well so long as you remember to bleed it each time you put the boat back in the water. Also, you only want one bush in your stern tube, at the outboard end. Regards, Richard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17707|17701|2008-06-28 17:47:51|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing Box (again)|If you have enough room , changing the length of the hose on the stuffing box lets the packing seal on a different part of the shaft. Brent > mounts and varying thrust, the lip seals will get torn up by any deposits or > scale on the shaft. I think I am going to keep with my old packing style > box and add a grease nipple. Its old technology but pretty reliable if you > are careful with it. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gary Prebble > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 8:33 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Stuffing Box (again) > > Started out with the usual flax stuffing box but ended up either > scoring the prop shaft (too tight) or having it too loose and lots of > bilge water. Switched to the grease nipple idea but after a long motor > up Johnstone Straight (despite pumping in grease as I went) ended up > with a giant grease ball turd under the stuffing box and lots of really > dirty bilge water. I am again considering the dripless. Is there one > out there that has been a good performer? Also, any opinions about the > scored shaft being a problem and whether or not all of the grease can > be sufficiently cleaned out for a dripless. > > Thanks... Gary > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.101 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1521 - Release Date: 6/26/2008 > 11:20 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17708|17701|2008-06-28 18:50:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stuffing Box (again)|On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 11:09:08AM +1200, Paul Thompson wrote: > Hi Gary, > > I have used the PYI Inc. PSS shaftseal on La Chica since 1995 with no > problems what so ever. We are going onto 13 years of use now, still running > the original seal and have never had any water in the boat at all. Not a > single drip. I do not motor all that often and so have only clocked up about > 2000 hours over these 13 years. Most of that was during a cruise to the USA > 1998 - 2000 where I a lot of motoring on the Intracoastal Waterway. Based on > my experience so far, I can highly recommend this unit if you want a > dripless seal. As it seals against a stainless steel rotor and not against > the shaft, scoring and wear are not a problem. I'll back Paul's recommendation on that. I had a PSS on my previous boat, 'Recessional', and had exactly zero problems with it in seven years [1]. The first major haulout after I bought 'Ulysses', I replaced the pressure-grease stuffing box with a PSS (the stuffing box itself had rusted to a thin shell, so I had to redo it anyway), and have had zero problems since then; that's another 8 years plus. It's one of the very few 'set and forget' systems aboard a boat. The other really nice thing about it is that the mating surfaces are perpendicular to the shaft and completely exposed (unlike a stuffing box, where those surfaces are hidden.) Anytime I go down into the engine compartment, I can see at a glance that everything is fine with it - there's no need to disassemble anything. [1] Well, I did have an "interesting" moment early on, before I had any trust in the PSS: I pulled back the flexible sleeve to make sure that everything was OK (I was worried because it _wasn't_ dripping... :), was reassured to see the water gushing in, released the sleeve... and the water kept gushing in. Took me an unpleasantly tense couple of seconds to figure out that, no, I hadn't damaged anything; it was just that, by letting the water flood in like that, I had let in a piece of seaweed that got stuck between the mating surfaces. Once I pulled it out, everything went back to normal. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17709|17701|2008-06-28 20:21:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stuffing Box (again)|On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 08:29:01AM -0400, pynrc@... wrote: > Gary,I had the same problem some years ago, I had a grease filled stern tube > with a lip seal carrier outside and in.It worked for years and then quit for > some reason, and even new seals did not fix it. We were over 100 miles out > in bad weather and pumping every 20 minutes. I slipped the boat, removed the > shaft and degreased the inside of the tube. The dripless seal (a carbon ring > spinning against a stainless flange) fits on the inside end of the stern tube > on a bit of rubber pipe. It is unlikely to sit on the shaft where it has been > scored by the old stuffing box.You have a little bit of latitude here. Good point. You can slide the sleeve up or down on the tube, and also have a range of how much you compress it (within reason.) There's a whole lot of latitude in where you place the "doughnut", so you can definitely avoid the scored part of the shaft. > Works well so long as you remember to bleed it each time you put the boat back in > the water. Just as a bit of data - I've never found this to actually be necessary, although it seems like a reasonable thing to do and only takes a second. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17710|17701|2008-06-28 21:19:25|Paul Thompson|Re: Stuffing Box (again)|> > Works well so long as you remember to bleed it each time you put the > boat back in > > the water. > > Just as a bit of data - I've never found this to actually be necessary, > although it seems like a reasonable thing to do and only takes a second. > > You only need to bleed the seal if the shaft has a large amount of slope in it. You do this by pulling the sleeve back and letting a bit of water squirt out. In my case, the shaft is very nearly parallel to the waterline and like Ben, I have never found this to be necessary. The newer versions all have a take off that you connect a hose to and can then run it hose above the waterline, thus causing the system to be bled automatically. When I installed my seal (1995) this was an option on the "high speed" version only. Now days it is standard. Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17711|17711|2008-06-29 22:53:37|Tom Mann|BS 26 Blast and paint fun|Hello All I am wore out, Started before the sun came up, spot blasted all the top sides and used about 300 lbs of sand. I had switched back to the small ceramic tip with valve on the baster, handier for spot blasting being able to stop and go but about half way through blew the side of valve out, then I switched back to the industrial type tip and it went a lot faster. took about 2-1/2 hours to get ready for paint. Then I brush painted the inside edge of toe rail and commenced to spraying. spray gun was acting up to, finaly figured that out, had a chunk of something unrecignizable stuck in it, figured that out half way though the job. I am going to get one more coat on the topsides then tackle the inside, at least its white on top and stays about a 100 degrees cooler. The grey and rust mix would get so hot you couldn't touch it. It's beer O clock now Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17712|17655|2008-06-30 08:41:40|Shane Duncan|Re: aluminium pilot house|cheers with the advice on aluminum pilot house design   takes a load off my mind   decided to go for a 4mm marine grade aluminum pilot house bolted on to a 100mm x 4mm  lip 316 stainless   haven't worked out what type of insulator i'm using yet   look forward to some pictures posted on origamiboats of the entire operation fuc*k ups and all   shane         ost pictures on yahoogroups.com mistakes and all cheers shane ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:55:07 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the aluminium from the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? It appears that bolt on is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding "  , it`s in the states but has > some info on the strip.  james > > > On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for a > > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in > > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > > direct me to it. > > Pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you weld > > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some > > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the source > > >right now. :) > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17713|17713|2008-06-30 16:49:33|Doug|Metal Boat Society Festival|Greetings Are any of you origami builders going to be at this years Metal Boat Society Festival in Bellingham? If so, the wife and I would like to meet you and hear about your boat. Best of Luck Doug & Kay Jackson www.submarineboat.com| 17714|17714|2008-06-30 20:27:03|Carl Anderson|boom extrusion for sale lower Van Isl|Anyone needing something to use as a boom I have an aluminum extrusion that is 4" X 8" with sail track. Length is 16' and wall thickness is .15" It is near Sooke and I'll take $200 or best offer on it. I am using a matching piece for the boom on Moonflower (got two of them but only need one boom!!?) Carl www.MoonflowerOfMoab.com| 17715|17715|2008-06-30 23:27:43|tazmannusa|BS 26 photos uploaded|Hello all Uploaded a few pictures of the 26 with some color to it. I think shes looking good even though some say origami is ugly and only apeal to hillbillys LOL. No finish coats yet thats just epoxy. I just glanced at todays mail and there was a county accessors letter stating the aprased value on my 26 is $35,000. SOB's are crazy, no way in heck would it be worth that, there just jacking it up there so they can ding me 1% a year on that amount. Now I get to fight them on that and that aint easy when they make up there own rules as they see fit. Ok back to the boat,the bow shot picture shows where I am mounting the bow lights, 2 raised pipes about 3-1/2" tall,bottom of them are open to the inside for wiring and painting inside. I acualy got the idea from a glass boat that had them molded in the decks. I do have one question, what or how are you going about putting the hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted with epoxy it will cover them up. Tom| 17716|17716|2008-07-01 04:10:41|lucylittleton|New Freebies (1st July)|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://freebiesweekly.blogspot.com/2008_06_29_archive.html When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great weekend!| 17717|17713|2008-07-01 13:57:45|mickeyolaf|Re: Metal Boat Society Festival|Don't u have to be a member of the MBS to go? i.e. pay a joining fee, dues etc in order to be allowed into the festival. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > Greetings > > Are any of you origami builders going to be at this years Metal Boat > Society Festival in Bellingham? If so, the wife and I would like to > meet you and hear about your boat. > > Best of Luck > Doug & Kay Jackson > www.submarineboat.com > | 17718|17713|2008-07-01 14:31:31|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Metal Boat Society Festival|There is a addition fee if your not a member, but as conferences go I think it's reasonable.? The food was great.? The details are on their site: http://www.metalboatsociety.org/festival.htm? There are a couple of membership perks but nothing that we take advantage of. Mickey, I see you were building a boat.? Is it in the water now? We like to visit with you if possible.? --Doug ? Don't u have to be a member of the MBS to go? i.e. pay a joining fee, dues etc in order to be allowed into the festival. -----Original Message----- From: mickeyolaf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:57 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival Don't u have to be a member of the MBS to go? i.e. pay a joining fee, dues etc in order to be allowed into the festival. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > Greetings > > Are any of you origami builders going to be at this years Metal Boat > Society Festival in Bellingham? If so, the wife and I would like to > meet you and hear about your boat. > > Best of Luck > Doug & Kay Jackson > www.submarineboat.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17719|17719|2008-07-01 14:49:20|rd_cedar|Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound?|Hi, I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. Who should i buy my steel from?| 17720|17715|2008-07-01 15:12:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 03:27:42AM -0000, tazmannusa wrote: > > I do have one question, what or how are you going about putting the > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted with > epoxy it will cover them up. I'd write it with a welding rod. :) That's pretty much what the US Army was doing with their trucks when I was in; painting didn't obscure it in any way. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17721|17719|2008-07-01 15:15:08|Ronnie Foster|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |Economically this may not be the time to begin building a steel boat. In our manufacturing process we have consumed approximately 40,000 pounds of 3/16" plate this to date this year. In February we were paying $0.4255 per 100 pounds. After shopping nation wide, I purchased 15,000 pounds of 3/16" last week and paid $0.655 per 100 pounds. The expectation industry wide is for the price of A36 Carbon Steel to be $1.00 per 100 pounds by December. The steel market is more volatile than I have seen it in the 30 years we have been I business. Just thought I would make you aware of the situation. Let Me Know, Ronnie Foster A.S.T. Systems, Inc. 18570 Van Road Houston, Texas 77049 Phone: (281)456-0082 Fax: (281) 456-0083 Cell: (713) 829-4601 E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rd_cedar Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound? Hi, I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. Who should i buy my steel from? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17722|17719|2008-07-01 16:00:42|Tom Mann|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |Ronnie Did you mean per 1 pound $1.00 per 100 pounds is pretty cheap Tom On 7/1/08, Ronnie Foster wrote: > > Economically this may not be the time to begin building a steel boat. In > our > manufacturing process we have consumed approximately 40,000 pounds of 3/16" > plate this to date this year. In February we were paying $0.4255 per 100 > pounds. After shopping nation wide, I purchased 15,000 pounds of 3/16" last > week and paid $0.655 per 100 pounds. The expectation industry wide is for > the price of A36 Carbon Steel to be $1.00 per 100 pounds by December. The > steel market is more volatile than I have seen it in the 30 years we have > been I business. > > > > Just thought I would make you aware of the situation. > > > > Let Me Know, > > Ronnie Foster > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > 18570 Van Road > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of rd_cedar > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:49 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget > Sound? > > > > Hi, > I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. > > Who should i buy my steel from? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17723|17715|2008-07-01 16:05:43|Tom Mann|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|That a good idea Ben, cant get any more permanent than that. Thanks Tom On 7/1/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 03:27:42AM -0000, tazmannusa wrote: > > > > I do have one question, what or how are you going about putting the > > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted with > > epoxy it will cover them up. > > I'd write it with a welding rod. :) That's pretty much what the US Army > was doing with their trucks when I was in; painting didn't obscure it in > any way. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17724|17719|2008-07-01 21:03:57|martin demers|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |it is probably still cheaper than building a wood or fiber gass boat knowing that a 4x8 plywood sheet cost around $100.00 and a 45 gal. barrel of epoxy cost $3000.00 and will probaply go up with the oil barrel going up! Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > CC: foster.ronnie@... > From: foster.ronnie@... > Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:15:00 -0500 > Subject: RE: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound? > > > Economically this may not be the time to begin building a steel boat. In our > manufacturing process we have consumed approximately 40,000 pounds of 3/16" > plate this to date this year. In February we were paying $0.4255 per 100 > pounds. After shopping nation wide, I purchased 15,000 pounds of 3/16" last > week and paid $0.655 per 100 pounds. The expectation industry wide is for > the price of A36 Carbon Steel to be $1.00 per 100 pounds by December. The > steel market is more volatile than I have seen it in the 30 years we have > been I business. > > Just thought I would make you aware of the situation. > > Let Me Know, > > Ronnie Foster > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > 18570 Van Road > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of rd_cedar > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:49 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget > Sound? > > Hi, > I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. > > Who should i buy my steel from? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17725|17719|2008-07-01 22:32:07|Aaron Williams|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |Seaport steel --- On Tue, 7/1/08, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 5:03 PM it is probably still cheaper than building a wood or fiber gass boat knowing that a 4x8 plywood sheet cost around $100.00 and a 45 gal. barrel of epoxy cost $3000.00 and will probaply go up with the oil barrel going up! Martin. ____________ _________ _________ __ > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > CC: foster.ronnie@ att.net > From: foster.ronnie@ att.net > Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:15:00 -0500 > Subject: RE: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound? > > > Economically this may not be the time to begin building a steel boat. In our > manufacturing process we have consumed approximately 40,000 pounds of 3/16" > plate this to date this year. In February we were paying $0.4255 per 100 > pounds. After shopping nation wide, I purchased 15,000 pounds of 3/16" last > week and paid $0.655 per 100 pounds. The expectation industry wide is for > the price of A36 Carbon Steel to be $1.00 per 100 pounds by December. The > steel market is more volatile than I have seen it in the 30 years we have > been I business. > > Just thought I would make you aware of the situation. > > Let Me Know, > > Ronnie Foster > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > 18570 Van Road > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@ att.net > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On > Behalf Of rd_cedar > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:49 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget > Sound? > > Hi, > I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. > > Who should i buy my steel from? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17726|17719|2008-07-02 02:21:57|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |Out of Oly Ply MDO is about $30 a sheet for 1/2" from http://www.jgreer.com/ epoxy is #585 w/shiping for 15 gal. Steel will last longer and hold up better if cared for. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > it is probably still cheaper than building a wood or fiber gass boat knowing that a 4x8 plywood sheet cost around $100.00 and a 45 gal. barrel of epoxy cost $3000.00 and will probaply go up with the oil barrel going up! > > Martin. | 17727|17727|2008-07-02 04:46:18|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Job Vacancy For Drafter Auto Cad Instrumentation|Dear All Our Client, a Gold mining company currently operating in Papua, is urgently seeking for qualified Indonesian national to fill in the position of: DRAFTER AUTOCAD INSTRUMENTATION (2-211-291) Qualification: 1. Familiar with AutoCAD with the minimum experience 3 years (layers, attribute, dimension) 2. Familiar with plotter and printer 3. Able to operate computer literate (MS Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Acrobat Leader) Familiar with Standard or geomeri Aljabar (scale, conversion metric-foot, gambar tampak) and Basic Instrumentation/ Control 4. Familiar with control logic or ladder schematic 5. Understand with isometric, P&ID, & Instrumentation engineering drawing 6. Advantage familiar with ellipse Education and Working Experience 1. Technical High School (Electrical) jurusan Listrik Arus Lemah (Control) Job Description: 1. Provide excellent Auto CAD drawings based on sketch given by a designer or Engineers 2. Provide Bill of Material based on P&ID drawing or sketch given by the designer or Engineer 3. Make MTO atau Direct Charge Purchase Requisition given by the Engineer or Designer 4. Assist as built drawings or field survey An attractive remuneration package commensurate with experiences and qualifications will be offered to the right candidate Your application will be treated confidentially and only short listed candidates will be followed up. Please send your applications with CV and recent photo resumes@... . And quote the above listed reference number of position.| 17728|17719|2008-07-02 08:18:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 06:21:55AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Out of Oly Ply MDO is about $30 a sheet for 1/2" from > http://www.jgreer.com/ epoxy is #585 w/shiping for 15 gal. Steel will > last longer and hold up better if cared for. But MDO isn't what's used for boat-building, right? Marine plywood - and I just bought some after doing a bunch of research on quality and prices - was $125/sheet for 1/2". You're right about steel, though: plywood isn't much help if you run into a shipping container or an uncharted reef. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17729|17719|2008-07-02 14:26:56|brentswain38|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |Gary Steel in Portland supplied the boats I've done in Frisco. They have a wheelabrader and good Devoe primer. Best get it paid for before the price goes even higher. Still a fraction the price of fibreglass and you don't get to use fibreglass scraps to build your anchor out of etc. That also doesn't count the cost of having to buy and bolt all your deck hardware onto a fibreglass boat. Then there is the cost of replacing a fibreglass boat whenever you hit a shipping container in the night, if you survive. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Ronnie > Did you mean per 1 pound > $1.00 per 100 pounds is pretty cheap > Tom > > On 7/1/08, Ronnie Foster wrote: > > > > Economically this may not be the time to begin building a steel boat. In > > our > > manufacturing process we have consumed approximately 40,000 pounds of 3/16" > > plate this to date this year. In February we were paying $0.4255 per 100 > > pounds. After shopping nation wide, I purchased 15,000 pounds of 3/16" last > > week and paid $0.655 per 100 pounds. The expectation industry wide is for > > the price of A36 Carbon Steel to be $1.00 per 100 pounds by December. The > > steel market is more volatile than I have seen it in the 30 years we have > > been I business. > > > > > > > > Just thought I would make you aware of the situation. > > > > > > > > Let Me Know, > > > > Ronnie Foster > > > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > > > 18570 Van Road > > > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > On > > Behalf Of rd_cedar > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:49 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget > > Sound? > > > > > > > > Hi, > > I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. > > > > Who should i buy my steel from? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17730|17715|2008-07-02 14:33:05|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|Tom We'll let the snobs carry on paying for their half million dollar penis extender type boats and the moorage on them while we hillbillys go cruisin, and maybe send them the odd postcard in the dead of winter, just to let them know how right they are. Ask the assesor to pay you $35,000 on the spot , or offer it to them cheap , for $30,000 and they can make a quick $5,000, without really trying. If they really believe their assesments, then it's time for them to put their money where their mouths are. If not, they have no case. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" wrote: > > Hello all > Uploaded a few pictures of the 26 with some color to it. I think shes > looking good even though some say origami is ugly and only apeal to > hillbillys LOL. No finish coats yet thats just epoxy. > I just glanced at todays mail and there was a county accessors letter > stating the aprased value on my 26 is $35,000. SOB's are crazy, no way > in heck would it be worth that, there just jacking it up there so they > can ding me 1% a year on that amount. Now I get to fight them on that > and that aint easy when they make up there own rules as they see fit. > Ok back to the boat,the bow shot picture shows where I am mounting the > bow lights, 2 raised pipes about 3-1/2" tall,bottom of them are open to > the inside for wiring and painting inside. I acualy got the idea from a > glass boat that had them molded in the decks. > I do have one question, what or how are you going about putting the > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted with > epoxy it will cover them up. > Tom > | 17731|17713|2008-07-02 14:34:53|brentswain38|Re: Metal Boat Society Festival|I used to go , when they were at Oak Harbour, where you could camp for free and do it cheaply. Bellingham doesn't have that option as far as I can tell. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > Greetings > > Are any of you origami builders going to be at this years Metal Boat > Society Festival in Bellingham? If so, the wife and I would like to > meet you and hear about your boat. > > Best of Luck > Doug & Kay Jackson > www.submarineboat.com > | 17732|17713|2008-07-02 15:45:49|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Metal Boat Society Festival|They have some free dock space included in the $95 dollar registration fee. You should be a presenter and get yours for free. We'd certainly like the opportunity to buy you a few beers. By then my wife and I will have our boat plans for a 70ft origami that Jack Carson is drawing for us.? That should make a nice conversation piece.? Here are the sketches:? http://www.submarineboat.com/sailboat.htm Hope to see you there. Doug -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 1:34 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival I used to go , when they were at Oak Harbour, where you could camp for free and do it cheaply. Bellingham doesn't have that option as far as I can tell. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > Greetings > > Are any of you origami builders going to be at this years Metal Boat > Society Festival in Bellingham? If so, the wife and I would like to > meet you and hear about your boat. > > Best of Luck > Doug & Kay Jackson > www.submarineboat.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17733|17715|2008-07-02 15:56:01|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|Great looking boat Tom. Well done. The snobs will envy you out on the cruising grounds when their West Marine "style over substance "type deck hardware keeps failing and leaking , or they have lost a crewmember or two over their "style over substance" knee high lifelines. What you have, they can only appreciate after having a bit more experience. Yachtyness loses its attraction out in the real world. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tom > We'll let the snobs carry on paying for their half million dollar > penis extender type boats and the moorage on them while we hillbillys > go cruisin, and maybe send them the odd postcard in the dead of > winter, just to let them know how right they are. > Ask the assesor to pay you $35,000 on the spot , or offer it to them > cheap , for $30,000 and they can make a quick $5,000, without really > trying. If they really believe their assesments, then it's time for > them to put their money where their mouths are. If not, they have no case. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" wrote: > > > > Hello all > > Uploaded a few pictures of the 26 with some color to it. I think shes > > looking good even though some say origami is ugly and only apeal to > > hillbillys LOL. No finish coats yet thats just epoxy. > > I just glanced at todays mail and there was a county accessors letter > > stating the aprased value on my 26 is $35,000. SOB's are crazy, no way > > in heck would it be worth that, there just jacking it up there so they > > can ding me 1% a year on that amount. Now I get to fight them on that > > and that aint easy when they make up there own rules as they see fit. > > Ok back to the boat,the bow shot picture shows where I am mounting the > > bow lights, 2 raised pipes about 3-1/2" tall,bottom of them are open to > > the inside for wiring and painting inside. I acualy got the idea from a > > glass boat that had them molded in the decks. > > I do have one question, what or how are you going about putting the > > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted with > > epoxy it will cover them up. > > Tom > > > | 17734|17713|2008-07-02 17:56:11|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Metal Boat Society Festival|Doug, I don't see a davit big enough to handle your sub aboard your boat. J R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival They have some free dock space included in the $95 dollar registration fee. You should be a presenter and get yours for free. We'd certainly like the opportunity to buy you a few beers. By then my wife and I will have our boat plans for a 70ft origami that Jack Carson is drawing for us.? That should make a nice conversation piece.? Here are the sketches:? http://www.submarineboat.com/sailboat.htm Hope to see you there. Doug [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17735|17715|2008-07-02 19:18:12|Carl Anderson|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|Tom, I stamped it into a stainless plate & welded it to the transom in the proper place (that is the top starboard corner). I then covered it over during sandblasting & painting. Took off the cover & have a nice stainless HIN plate on the stern. I also copied this on two other plates that are hidden inside the boat for security reasons. Carl tazmannusa wrote: > > Hello all > Uploaded a few pictures of the 26 with some color to it. I think shes > looking good even though some say origami is ugly and only apeal to > hillbillys LOL. No finish coats yet thats just epoxy. > I just glanced at todays mail and there was a county accessors letter > stating the aprased value on my 26 is $35,000. SOB's are crazy, no way > in heck would it be worth that, there just jacking it up there so they > can ding me 1% a year on that amount. Now I get to fight them on that > and that aint easy when they make up there own rules as they see fit. > Ok back to the boat,the bow shot picture shows where I am mounting the > bow lights, 2 raised pipes about 3-1/2" tall,bottom of them are open to > the inside for wiring and painting inside. I acualy got the idea from a > glass boat that had them molded in the decks. > I do have one question, what or how are you going about putting the > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted with > epoxy it will cover them up. > Tom > > | 17736|17719|2008-07-02 19:35:50|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |Actualy MDO is used a lot in boat building comercaly and privetly. It has fewer actual plys then marine but as good a core and more glue when you use a good grade. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 06:21:55AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > Out of Oly Ply MDO is about $30 a sheet for 1/2" from > > http://www.jgreer.com/ epoxy is #585 w/shiping for 15 gal. Steel will > > last longer and hold up better if cared for. > > But MDO isn't what's used for boat-building, right? Marine plywood - and > I just bought some after doing a bunch of research on quality and prices > - was $125/sheet for 1/2". You're right about steel, though: plywood > isn't much help if you run into a shipping container or an uncharted reef. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17737|17715|2008-07-02 19:45:24|Joe Earsley|Serial Number|Hi Carl, Hope your summer projects are going well. What kind of serial number did you create for your custom boat? Alaska joe -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] BS 26 photos uploaded Tom, I stamped it into a stainless plate & welded it to the transom in the proper place (that is the top starboard corner). I then covered it over during sandblasting & painting. Took off the cover & have a nice stainless HIN plate on the stern. I also copied this on two other plates that are hidden inside the boat for security reasons. Carl| 17738|17715|2008-07-02 20:13:48|Carl Anderson|Re: Serial Number|Joe, I had the boat titled in Utah so they originated a HIN for a homemade steel sailboat. After that they registered the boat as well so I have a Utah state number on it. The whole process was very painless and took less than an hour. Carl Joe Earsley wrote: > > Hi Carl, > Hope your summer projects are going well. What kind of serial number > did you create for your custom boat? > > Alaska joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] > On Behalf Of Carl Anderson > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:18 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] BS 26 photos uploaded > > Tom, > > I stamped it into a stainless plate & welded it to the transom in the > proper place (that is the top starboard corner). > I then covered it over during sandblasting & painting. > Took off the cover & have a nice stainless HIN plate on the stern. > I also copied this on two other plates that are hidden inside the boat > for security reasons. > > Carl > > | 17739|17719|2008-07-02 20:38:04|Ben Okopnik|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 11:35:49PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Actualy MDO is used a lot in boat building comercaly and privetly. It > has fewer actual plys then marine but as good a core and more glue > when you use a good grade. Is that for interior or exterior use? I knew a lot of small boatbuilders in the Maryland area, and they all used marine grade ply for their hulls. The classic canoe and kayak builders especially; they used some kind of insanely-expensive marine ply that had all these special properties. I couldn't even begin to tell you what was so special about it; once these guys started going into details, they started talking Martian and my eyes glazed over. One thing I'm definitely not is a carpenter, although I often wish I understood woodwork a lot better than I do. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17740|17740|2008-07-02 20:47:44|Ben Okopnik|Off-topic but still boat-related|A bit off-topic, but - it has to do with building in steel and boats. It also has to do with Scotland, their Forth and Clyde canals, kelpies, and a project of *awesome* scale. :) http://www.falkirkhelix.co.uk/latest/glasgow-artist-to-create-worlds-largest-horse-sculptures.html or http://tinyurl.com/4cml9u I wouldn't mind going through that lock, myself... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17741|17713|2008-07-03 00:28:23|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Metal Boat Society Festival|Jay You know, we actually talked about it. :)?? Plans are for an ROV instead.? You not a member of the Junk Rig forum too are you?? Best --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Jay K. Jeffries To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 4:48 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival Doug, I don't see a davit big enough to handle your sub aboard your boat. J R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival They have some free dock space included in the $95 dollar registration fee. You should be a presenter and get yours for free. We'd certainly like the opportunity to buy you a few beers. By then my wife and I will have our boat plans for a 70ft origami that Jack Carson is drawing for us.? That should make a nice conversation piece.? Here are the sketches:? http://www.submarineboat.com/sailboat.htm Hope to see you there. Doug [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17742|17719|2008-07-03 00:31:12|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |Hull and deck on mostly larger boats due to the fact that anything thinner then 3/8" is specal order. One of the first boat uses was for encapsolated lapstrake planking. Origenaly produced for Hwy signs then became the main plywood for wood sign makers. Mdo takes epoxy and glass as well as any ply and will not check some fir plywood. In canoes and kayaks 5 ply exotic marine in 1/4" would be better for weight and a little extra stringth. Great for cabinets and floors if you plan to paint. There are some mills making house siding out of it now in the NW so it has to be good or they are out of business. Jon > Is that for interior or exterior use? I knew a lot of small boatbuilders > in the Maryland area, and they all used marine grade ply for their > hulls. The classic canoe and kayak builders especially; they used some > kind of insanely-expensive marine ply that had all these special > properties. I couldn't even begin to tell you what was so special about > it; once these guys started going into details, they started talking > Martian and my eyes glazed over. One thing I'm definitely not is a > carpenter, although I often wish I understood woodwork a lot better than > I do. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17743|17719|2008-07-03 02:01:56|rd_cedar|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |Today doesn't look like a good day to buy steel. The only online quote i could find for A-36 plate was $2.00 a lb. Could that be right? Has the price doubled in the last couple of months? Should i wait for the dollar to recover, oil to fall, and China to go out of business, or should i buy now, because the fat days aren't coming back? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Gary Steel in Portland supplied the boats I've done in Frisco. They > have a wheelabrader and good Devoe primer. > Best get it paid for before the price goes even higher. Still a > fraction the price of fibreglass and you don't get to use fibreglass > scraps to build your anchor out of etc. That also doesn't count the > cost of having to buy and bolt all your deck hardware onto a > fibreglass boat. > Then there is the cost of replacing a fibreglass boat whenever you > hit a shipping container in the night, if you survive. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Ronnie > > Did you mean per 1 pound > > $1.00 per 100 pounds is pretty cheap > > Tom > > > > On 7/1/08, Ronnie Foster wrote: > > > > > > Economically this may not be the time to begin building a steel > boat. In > > > our > > > manufacturing process we have consumed approximately 40,000 pounds > of 3/16" > > > plate this to date this year. In February we were paying $0.4255 > per 100 > > > pounds. After shopping nation wide, I purchased 15,000 pounds of > 3/16" last > > > week and paid $0.655 per 100 pounds. The expectation industry wide > is for > > > the price of A36 Carbon Steel to be $1.00 per 100 pounds by > December. The > > > steel market is more volatile than I have seen it in the 30 years > we have > > > been I business. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just thought I would make you aware of the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let Me Know, > > > > > > Ronnie Foster > > > > > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > > > > > 18570 Van Road > > > > > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > > > > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > > > > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > > > > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > > > > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@ > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > > On > > > Behalf Of rd_cedar > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:49 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the > Puget > > > Sound? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. > > > > > > Who should i buy my steel from? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17744|17713|2008-07-03 06:24:12|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Metal Boat Society Festival|Doug, The ROV sounds much more doable. We keep crossing paths on all of these lists. No, I am not a member of the Junk Rig forum, can you provide a link so I can join? Will you be making one of the PSUBS Conferences one of these years? They are planning for Vancouver next year. R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 12:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival Jay You know, we actually talked about it. :)?? Plans are for an ROV instead.? You not a member of the Junk Rig forum too are you?? Best --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Jay K. Jeffries > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 4:48 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival Doug, I don't see a davit big enough to handle your sub aboard your boat. J R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival They have some free dock space included in the $95 dollar registration fee. You should be a presenter and get yours for free. We'd certainly like the opportunity to buy you a few beers. By then my wife and I will have our boat plans for a 70ft origami that Jack Carson is drawing for us.? That should make a nice conversation piece.? Here are the sketches:? http://www.submarineboat.com/sailboat.htm Hope to see you there. Doug [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17745|17719|2008-07-03 07:23:32|Tom Mann|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |WOW $2 a pound I havnt heard of it getting that high yet. I will give my supplier a call today and see what prices are doing. Online is not the best place to get quotes for steel,call your local suppliers. where are you located? Tom On 7/2/08, rd_cedar wrote: > > Today doesn't look like a good day to buy steel. > The only online quote i could find for A-36 plate was $2.00 a lb. > Could that be right? > Has the price doubled in the last couple of months? > > Should i wait for the dollar to recover, oil to fall, and China to go > out of business, or should i buy now, because the fat days aren't > coming back? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Gary Steel in Portland supplied the boats I've done in Frisco. They > > have a wheelabrader and good Devoe primer. > > Best get it paid for before the price goes even higher. Still a > > fraction the price of fibreglass and you don't get to use fibreglass > > scraps to build your anchor out of etc. That also doesn't count the > > cost of having to buy and bolt all your deck hardware onto a > > fibreglass boat. > > Then there is the cost of replacing a fibreglass boat whenever you > > hit a shipping container in the night, if you survive. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Ronnie > > > Did you mean per 1 pound > > > $1.00 per 100 pounds is pretty cheap > > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/1/08, Ronnie Foster wrote: > > > > > > > > Economically this may not be the time to begin building a steel > > boat. In > > > > our > > > > manufacturing process we have consumed approximately 40,000 > pounds > > of 3/16" > > > > plate this to date this year. In February we were paying $0.4255 > > per 100 > > > > pounds. After shopping nation wide, I purchased 15,000 pounds of > > 3/16" last > > > > week and paid $0.655 per 100 pounds. The expectation industry > wide > > is for > > > > the price of A36 Carbon Steel to be $1.00 per 100 pounds by > > December. The > > > > steel market is more volatile than I have seen it in the 30 > years > > we have > > > > been I business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just thought I would make you aware of the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let Me Know, > > > > > > > > Ronnie Foster > > > > > > > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > > > > > > > 18570 Van Road > > > > > > > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > > > > > > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > > > > > > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > > > > > > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > > > > > > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > > > On > > > > Behalf Of rd_cedar > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:49 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in > the > > Puget > > > > Sound? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. > > > > > > > > Who should i buy my steel from? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17746|17715|2008-07-03 09:30:17|Tom Mann|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|Thanks Brent I like your idea of money where there mouth is, will try it as last resort. I did give them a call and they admited they had nothing to go by for the accessment other than size and year. I have to get all my paper work and pictures together and take them to there office, hopfully they come up with somthing a little more realistic. This weekend I am going to atempt the inside, If things go right Blast with clean blast everything in one day and paint the next. I have about 30 minutes of welding things in that I want to do first, one is the cockpit supports that attach to the hull, I am going to tie them in to the engine beds. Next the front morring bit one brace from bottom of it to the stem bar " yes I did end up putting in a stem bar ". last thing The one through hull for the sink drain I put in, I didnt feel confy about the 316 stainless pipe so I used a bit of old school 1-1/2" sch 40 steel pipe came up 4" with weld flange then another weld flange another 4" pipe threaded on top with bronze ball valve, valve is isolated from hull at flange, anyway the bottom flange is within a few inches of stringer so a welded flat strip from flange to stringer will really strengthen the assy. Tom On 7/2/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > Great looking boat Tom. Well done. The snobs will envy you out on the > cruising grounds when their West Marine "style over substance "type > deck hardware keeps failing and leaking , or they have lost a > crewmember or two over their "style over substance" knee high lifelines. > What you have, they can only appreciate after having a bit more > experience. Yachtyness loses its attraction out in the real world. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Tom > > We'll let the snobs carry on paying for their half million dollar > > penis extender type boats and the moorage on them while we hillbillys > > go cruisin, and maybe send them the odd postcard in the dead of > > winter, just to let them know how right they are. > > Ask the assesor to pay you $35,000 on the spot , or offer it to them > > cheap , for $30,000 and they can make a quick $5,000, without really > > trying. If they really believe their assesments, then it's time for > > them to put their money where their mouths are. If not, they have no > case. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" wrote: > > > > > > Hello all > > > Uploaded a few pictures of the 26 with some color to it. I think > shes > > > looking good even though some say origami is ugly and only apeal to > > > hillbillys LOL. No finish coats yet thats just epoxy. > > > I just glanced at todays mail and there was a county accessors > letter > > > stating the aprased value on my 26 is $35,000. SOB's are crazy, > no way > > > in heck would it be worth that, there just jacking it up there so > they > > > can ding me 1% a year on that amount. Now I get to fight them on that > > > and that aint easy when they make up there own rules as they see fit. > > > Ok back to the boat,the bow shot picture shows where I am > mounting the > > > bow lights, 2 raised pipes about 3-1/2" tall,bottom of them are > open to > > > the inside for wiring and painting inside. I acualy got the idea > from a > > > glass boat that had them molded in the decks. > > > I do have one question, what or how are you going about putting the > > > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted with > > > epoxy it will cover them up. > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17747|17713|2008-07-03 10:25:57|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Metal Boat Society Festival|Jay Junk Rig is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig I would very much like to make a PSUBS Conference but next year about that time we plan to be pulling a hull together. Maybe I can sail to one in 6 years. :) --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Jay K. Jeffries To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 5:16 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival Doug, The ROV sounds much more doable. We keep crossing paths on all of these lists. No, I am not a member of the Junk Rig forum, can you provide a link so I can join? Will you be making one of the PSUBS Conferences one of these years? They are planning for Vancouver next year. R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 12:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival Jay You know, we actually talked about it. :)?? Plans are for an ROV instead.? You not a member of the Junk Rig forum too are you?? Best --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Jay K. Jeffries > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 4:48 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival Doug, I don't see a davit big enough to handle your sub aboard your boat. J R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival They have some free dock space included in the $95 dollar registration fee. You should be a presenter and get yours for free. We'd certainly like the opportunity to buy you a few beers. By then my wife and I will have our boat plans for a 70ft origami that Jack Carson is drawing for us.? That should make a nice conversation piece.? Here are the sketches:? http://www.submarineboat.com/sailboat.htm Hope to see you there. Doug [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17748|17713|2008-07-03 12:24:02|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Metal Boat Society Festival|Doug, Thanks for the link, will subscribe shortly. R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival Jay Junk Rig is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig I would very much like to make a PSUBS Conference but next year about that time we plan to be pulling a hull together. Maybe I can sail to one in 6 years. :) --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Jay K. Jeffries > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 5:16 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival Doug, The ROV sounds much more doable. We keep crossing paths on all of these lists. No, I am not a member of the Junk Rig forum, can you provide a link so I can join? Will you be making one of the PSUBS Conferences one of these years? They are planning for Vancouver next year. R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 12:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival Jay You know, we actually talked about it. :)?? Plans are for an ROV instead.? You not a member of the Junk Rig forum too are you?? Best --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Jay K. Jeffries > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 4:48 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival Doug, I don't see a davit big enough to handle your sub aboard your boat. J R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Society Festival They have some free dock space included in the $95 dollar registration fee. You should be a presenter and get yours for free. We'd certainly like the opportunity to buy you a few beers. By then my wife and I will have our boat plans for a 70ft origami that Jack Carson is drawing for us.? That should make a nice conversation piece.? Here are the sketches:? http://www.submarineboat.com/sailboat.htm Hope to see you there. Doug [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17749|17715|2008-07-03 15:22:32|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|I've been using 316 ss pipe nipples for 35 years and dozens of boats with no problems. You mentioned deck fairing on another site. You can do a lot to fair a deck from inside with a hydraulic jack on the end of a post with a bit of flatbar. Tack the flatbar to the low point of a depression, then jack it up until the deck is fair. Then put more tacks along it, then move the works to the next depression and do the same. You could get an insurance surveyor to assess your boat. Asess it in the contruction stage. Slop some orange paint on it to make it look derelict.That establishes value for the life of the boat and it depreciates for tax purposes from that point on. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Thanks Brent > I like your idea of money where there mouth is, will try it as last resort. > I did give them a call and they admited they had nothing to go by for the > accessment other than size and year. I have to get all my paper work and > pictures together and take them to there office, hopfully they come up with > somthing a little more realistic. > This weekend I am going to atempt the inside, If things go right Blast > with clean blast everything in one day and paint the next. I have about 30 > minutes of welding things in that I want to do first, one is the cockpit > supports that attach to the hull, I am going to tie them in to the engine > beds. Next the front morring bit one brace from bottom of it to the stem bar > " yes I did end up putting in a stem bar ". last thing The one through hull > for the sink drain I put in, I didnt feel confy about the 316 stainless pipe > so I used a bit of old school 1-1/2" sch 40 steel pipe came up 4" with weld > flange then another weld flange another 4" pipe threaded on top with bronze > ball valve, valve is isolated from hull at flange, anyway the bottom flange > is within a few inches of stringer so a welded flat strip from flange to > stringer will really strengthen the assy. > Tom > > > On 7/2/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Great looking boat Tom. Well done. The snobs will envy you out on the > > cruising grounds when their West Marine "style over substance "type > > deck hardware keeps failing and leaking , or they have lost a > > crewmember or two over their "style over substance" knee high lifelines. > > What you have, they can only appreciate after having a bit more > > experience. Yachtyness loses its attraction out in the real world. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Tom > > > We'll let the snobs carry on paying for their half million dollar > > > penis extender type boats and the moorage on them while we hillbillys > > > go cruisin, and maybe send them the odd postcard in the dead of > > > winter, just to let them know how right they are. > > > Ask the assesor to pay you $35,000 on the spot , or offer it to them > > > cheap , for $30,000 and they can make a quick $5,000, without really > > > trying. If they really believe their assesments, then it's time for > > > them to put their money where their mouths are. If not, they have no > > case. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello all > > > > Uploaded a few pictures of the 26 with some color to it. I think > > shes > > > > looking good even though some say origami is ugly and only apeal to > > > > hillbillys LOL. No finish coats yet thats just epoxy. > > > > I just glanced at todays mail and there was a county accessors > > letter > > > > stating the aprased value on my 26 is $35,000. SOB's are crazy, > > no way > > > > in heck would it be worth that, there just jacking it up there so > > they > > > > can ding me 1% a year on that amount. Now I get to fight them on that > > > > and that aint easy when they make up there own rules as they see fit. > > > > Ok back to the boat,the bow shot picture shows where I am > > mounting the > > > > bow lights, 2 raised pipes about 3-1/2" tall,bottom of them are > > open to > > > > the inside for wiring and painting inside. I acualy got the idea > > from a > > > > glass boat that had them molded in the decks. > > > > I do have one question, what or how are you going about putting the > > > > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted with > > > > epoxy it will cover them up. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17750|17740|2008-07-03 16:20:29|James|Re: Off-topic but still boat-related|Most impressive , Ben -- we look forward to it , and may sail down to look -- just hope that their local canal management is somewhat more able than that "running " our bit of the Caledonian Canal , in which we found "fresh" faecal matter entering the canal right next to our boat , from the waterway`s board own premises ! ! The manager did not believe us . james On 7/3/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > A bit off-topic, but - it has to do with building in steel and boats. It > also has to do with Scotland, their Forth and Clyde canals, kelpies, and > a project of *awesome* scale. :) > > > http://www.falkirkhelix.co.uk/latest/glasgow-artist-to-create-worlds-largest-horse-sculptures.html > > or > > http://tinyurl.com/4cml9u > > I wouldn't mind going through that lock, myself... > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17751|17719|2008-07-03 21:59:05|djackson99@aol.com|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |I really hope you guys are not paying $2 a pound up there. If so then look into transportation cost. I just got a quote today.? 1/4" Plate is? 60.95/100 USD in Tulsa, OK. in widths 6 ft and under. Kay and I spent the evening reading everything we could on steel prices.? Needless to say we missed the window on "buy low". A few people think that steel prices will drop to 50/100 in the 4th quarter, those people are in the minority.? So we are bighting the bullet. We are even getting a 6.89% interest loan for a portion of the materials.? At least then we can loose money at know rate. Broke in Oklahoma Doug J www.submarineboat.com -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 6:23 am Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound? WOW $2 a pound I havnt heard of it getting that high yet. I will give my supplier a call today and see what prices are doing. Online is not the best place to get quotes for steel,call your local suppliers. where are you located? Tom On 7/2/08, rd_cedar wrote: > > Today doesn't look like a good day to buy steel. > The only online quote i could find for A-36 plate was $2.00 a lb. > Could that be right? > Has the price doubled in the last couple of months? > > Should i wait for the dollar to recover, oil to fall, and China to go > out of business, or should i buy now, because the fat days aren't > coming back? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Gary Steel in Portland supplied the boats I've done in Frisco. They > > have a wheelabrader and good Devoe primer. > > Best get it paid for before the price goes even higher. Still a > > fraction the price of fibreglass and you don't get to use fibreglass > > scraps to build your anchor out of etc. That also doesn't count the > > cost of having to buy and bolt all your deck hardware onto a > > fibreglass boat. > > Then there is the cost of replacing a fibreglass boat whenever you > > hit a shipping container in the night, if you survive. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Ronnie > > > Did you mean per 1 pound > > > $1.00 per 100 pounds is pretty cheap > > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/1/08, Ronnie Foster wrote: > > > > > > > > Economically this may not be the time to begin building a steel > > boat. In > > > > our > > > > manufacturing process we have consumed approximately 40,000 > pounds > > of 3/16" > > > > plate this to date this year. In February we were paying $0.4255 > > per 100 > > > > pounds. After shopping nation wide, I purchased 15,000 pounds of > > 3/16" last > > > > week and paid $0.655 per 100 pounds. The expectation industry > wide > > is for > > > > the price of A36 Carbon Steel to be $1.00 per 100 pounds by > > December. The > > > > steel market is more volatile than I have seen it in the 30 > years > > we have > > > > been I business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just thought I would make you aware of the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let Me Know, > > > > > > > > Ronnie Foster > > > > > > > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > > > > > > > 18570 Van Road > > > > > > > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > > > > > > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > > > > > > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > > > > > > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > > > > > > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > > > On > > > > Behalf Of rd_cedar > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:49 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in > the > > Puget > > > > Sound? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. > > > > > > > > Who should i buy my steel from? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17752|17719|2008-07-03 22:50:34|Aaron Williams|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |Untill inflation gets so high that China and India has to slow down the cost will keep rising. Even then I bet it keeps going up just a little slower :-(  My last order was 76 cents per pound. Aaron --- On Thu, 7/3/08, djackson99@... wrote: From: djackson99@... Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 5:58 PM I really hope you guys are not paying $2 a pound up there. If so then look into transportation cost. I just got a quote today.? 1/4" Plate is? 60.95/100 USD in Tulsa, OK. in widths 6 ft and under. Kay and I spent the evening reading everything we could on steel prices.? Needless to say we missed the window on "buy low". A few people think that steel prices will drop to 50/100 in the 4th quarter, those people are in the minority.? So we are bighting the bullet. We are even getting a 6.89% interest loan for a portion of the materials.? At least then we can loose money at know rate. Broke in Oklahoma Doug J www.submarineboat. com -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 6:23 am Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound? WOW $2 a pound I havnt heard of it getting that high yet. I will give my supplier a call today and see what prices are doing. Online is not the best place to get quotes for steel,call your local suppliers. where are you located? Tom On 7/2/08, rd_cedar wrote: > > Today doesn't look like a good day to buy steel. > The only online quote i could find for A-36 plate was $2.00 a lb. > Could that be right? > Has the price doubled in the last couple of months? > > Should i wait for the dollar to recover, oil to fall, and China to go > out of business, or should i buy now, because the fat days aren't > coming back? > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Gary Steel in Portland supplied the boats I've done in Frisco. They > > have a wheelabrader and good Devoe primer. > > Best get it paid for before the price goes even higher. Still a > > fraction the price of fibreglass and you don't get to use fibreglass > > scraps to build your anchor out of etc. That also doesn't count the > > cost of having to buy and bolt all your deck hardware onto a > > fibreglass boat. > > Then there is the cost of replacing a fibreglass boat whenever you > > hit a shipping container in the night, if you survive. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Ronnie > > > Did you mean per 1 pound > > > $1.00 per 100 pounds is pretty cheap > > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/1/08, Ronnie Foster wrote: > > > > > > > > Economically this may not be the time to begin building a steel > > boat. In > > > > our > > > > manufacturing process we have consumed approximately 40,000 > pounds > > of 3/16" > > > > plate this to date this year. In February we were paying $0.4255 > > per 100 > > > > pounds. After shopping nation wide, I purchased 15,000 pounds of > > 3/16" last > > > > week and paid $0.655 per 100 pounds. The expectation industry > wide > > is for > > > > the price of A36 Carbon Steel to be $1.00 per 100 pounds by > > December. The > > > > steel market is more volatile than I have seen it in the 30 > years > > we have > > > > been I business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just thought I would make you aware of the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let Me Know, > > > > > > > > Ronnie Foster > > > > > > > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > > > > > > > 18570 Van Road > > > > > > > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > > > > > > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > > > > > > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > > > > > > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > > > > > > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] > > > > On > > > > Behalf Of rd_cedar > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:49 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Who has the best STEEL prices in > the > > Puget > > > > Sound? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. > > > > > > > > Who should i buy my steel from? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17753|17753|2008-07-04 04:25:10|maryhallington|4th July Freebies!|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://freebiesweekly.blogspot.com/2008_07_03_archive.html When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great 4th of July weekend!| 17754|17715|2008-07-04 10:14:03|Tom Mann|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|I defenantly beleave the 316 ss is fine to, eather way has been proven, just personal preferance. I wouldnt do it the way I did it if it was tucked down under something and hard to get to or if I couldnt paint it inside and out. The side decks I opted to not mess with anymore, They are only 15" wide and when I torch cut them made them pretty wavey and puckerd "12 gage", my mistake when installing the forward side decks working against the camber of decks I only tacked every 6" then when I installed cabin sides I tacked angle iron next to inside edge of decks, all looked good but I didnt realize some of the waveyness moved to outside edge between tacks. With my good eyesite I stll didnt see till after all the welding was done. Mainly its only the first few few feet of the side decks on the outside edge. I figured I had two options to fix it, first cut the welds streighten it out and reweld and risk distortion on the 10 gage hull or try the jack and flat strip from under side force it streight and risk that distortion transferd to the 10 gage hull. Decks are fully welded top and bottom with stringer 7-1/2" from out side edge. When you look at picture from front you cant hardly notice it. Tom On 7/3/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > I've been using 316 ss pipe nipples for 35 years and dozens of boats > with no problems. > You mentioned deck fairing on another site. You can do a lot to fair > a deck from inside with a hydraulic jack on the end of a post with a > bit of flatbar. Tack the flatbar to the low point of a depression, > then jack it up until the deck is fair. Then put more tacks along it, > then move the works to the next depression and do the same. > You could get an insurance surveyor to assess your boat. Asess it in > the contruction stage. Slop some orange paint on it to make it look > derelict.That establishes value for the life of the boat and it > depreciates for tax purposes from that point on. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent > > I like your idea of money where there mouth is, will try it as last > resort. > > I did give them a call and they admited they had nothing to go by > for the > > accessment other than size and year. I have to get all my paper work and > > pictures together and take them to there office, hopfully they come > up with > > somthing a little more realistic. > > This weekend I am going to atempt the inside, If things go right Blast > > with clean blast everything in one day and paint the next. I have > about 30 > > minutes of welding things in that I want to do first, one is the cockpit > > supports that attach to the hull, I am going to tie them in to the > engine > > beds. Next the front morring bit one brace from bottom of it to the > stem bar > > " yes I did end up putting in a stem bar ". last thing The one > through hull > > for the sink drain I put in, I didnt feel confy about the 316 > stainless pipe > > so I used a bit of old school 1-1/2" sch 40 steel pipe came up 4" > with weld > > flange then another weld flange another 4" pipe threaded on top with > bronze > > ball valve, valve is isolated from hull at flange, anyway the bottom > flange > > is within a few inches of stringer so a welded flat strip from flange to > > stringer will really strengthen the assy. > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/2/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > Great looking boat Tom. Well done. The snobs will envy you out on the > > > cruising grounds when their West Marine "style over substance "type > > > deck hardware keeps failing and leaking , or they have lost a > > > crewmember or two over their "style over substance" knee high > lifelines. > > > What you have, they can only appreciate after having a bit more > > > experience. Yachtyness loses its attraction out in the real world. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > We'll let the snobs carry on paying for their half million dollar > > > > penis extender type boats and the moorage on them while we > hillbillys > > > > go cruisin, and maybe send them the odd postcard in the dead of > > > > winter, just to let them know how right they are. > > > > Ask the assesor to pay you $35,000 on the spot , or offer it > to them > > > > cheap , for $30,000 and they can make a quick $5,000, without really > > > > trying. If they really believe their assesments, then it's time for > > > > them to put their money where their mouths are. If not, they have no > > > case. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello all > > > > > Uploaded a few pictures of the 26 with some color to it. I think > > > shes > > > > > looking good even though some say origami is ugly and only > apeal to > > > > > hillbillys LOL. No finish coats yet thats just epoxy. > > > > > I just glanced at todays mail and there was a county accessors > > > letter > > > > > stating the aprased value on my 26 is $35,000. SOB's are crazy, > > > no way > > > > > in heck would it be worth that, there just jacking it up there so > > > they > > > > > can ding me 1% a year on that amount. Now I get to fight them > on that > > > > > and that aint easy when they make up there own rules as they > see fit. > > > > > Ok back to the boat,the bow shot picture shows where I am > > > mounting the > > > > > bow lights, 2 raised pipes about 3-1/2" tall,bottom of them are > > > open to > > > > > the inside for wiring and painting inside. I acualy got the idea > > > from a > > > > > glass boat that had them molded in the decks. > > > > > I do have one question, what or how are you going about > putting the > > > > > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted > with > > > > > epoxy it will cover them up. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17755|17719|2008-07-04 15:09:23|rd_cedar|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |Yeah, i've just noticed that on-line price quotes differ wildly. So i'll have to wait till monday and get some phone quotes from local distributors. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Untill inflation gets so high that China and India has to slow down the cost will keep rising. Even then I bet it keeps going up just a little slower :-( My last order was 76 cents per pound. > Aaron > > --- On Thu, 7/3/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > From: djackson99@... > Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 5:58 PM > > > > > > > > I really hope you guys are not paying $2 a pound up there. If so then look into transportation cost. > > I just got a quote today.? 1/4" Plate is? 60.95/100 USD in Tulsa, OK. in widths 6 ft and under. > > Kay and I spent the evening reading everything we could on steel prices.? Needless to say we missed the window on "buy low". A few people think that steel prices will drop to 50/100 in the 4th quarter, those people are in the minority.? So we are bighting the bullet. We are even getting a 6.89% interest loan for a portion of the materials.? At least then we can loose money at know rate. > > Broke in Oklahoma > Doug J > www.submarineboat. com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 6:23 am > Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound? > > WOW $2 a pound I havnt heard of it getting that high yet. I will give my > > supplier a call today and see what prices are doing. Online is not the best > > place to get quotes for steel,call your local suppliers. where are you > > located? > > Tom > > On 7/2/08, rd_cedar wrote: > > > > > > Today doesn't look like a good day to buy steel. > > > The only online quote i could find for A-36 plate was $2.00 a lb. > > > Could that be right? > > > Has the price doubled in the last couple of months? > > > > > > Should i wait for the dollar to recover, oil to fall, and China to go > > > out of business, or should i buy now, because the fat days aren't > > > coming back? > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Gary Steel in Portland supplied the boats I've done in Frisco. They > > > > have a wheelabrader and good Devoe primer. > > > > Best get it paid for before the price goes even higher. Still a > > > > fraction the price of fibreglass and you don't get to use fibreglass > > > > scraps to build your anchor out of etc. That also doesn't count the > > > > cost of having to buy and bolt all your deck hardware onto a > > > > fibreglass boat. > > > > Then there is the cost of replacing a fibreglass boat whenever you > > > > hit a shipping container in the night, if you survive. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ronnie > > > > > Did you mean per 1 pound > > > > > $1.00 per 100 pounds is pretty cheap > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > On 7/1/08, Ronnie Foster wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Economically this may not be the time to begin building a steel > > > > boat. In > > > > > > our > > > > > > manufacturing process we have consumed approximately 40,000 > > > pounds > > > > of 3/16" > > > > > > plate this to date this year. In February we were paying $0.4255 > > > > per 100 > > > > > > pounds. After shopping nation wide, I purchased 15,000 pounds of > > > > 3/16" last > > > > > > week and paid $0.655 per 100 pounds. The expectation industry > > > wide > > > > is for > > > > > > the price of A36 Carbon Steel to be $1.00 per 100 pounds by > > > > December. The > > > > > > steel market is more volatile than I have seen it in the 30 > > > years > > > > we have > > > > > > been I business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just thought I would make you aware of the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let Me Know, > > > > > > > > > > > > Ronnie Foster > > > > > > > > > > > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > 18570 Van Road > > > > > > > > > > > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > > > > > > > > > > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > > > > > > > > > > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > > > > > > > > > > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] > > > > > > On > > > > > > Behalf Of rd_cedar > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:49 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Who has the best STEEL prices in > > > the > > > > Puget > > > > > > Sound? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. > > > > > > > > > > > > Who should i buy my steel from? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17756|17756|2008-07-04 15:58:55|rd_cedar|Materials question on BS31|Deck stiffeners on the materials list for the BS31 specifies 10)1"X3/8" flatbar, but i didn't see any specification for the lengths.| 17757|17715|2008-07-04 17:56:59|Paul Wilson|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|Tom, I just looked at your photos. Your boat looks great. You have done a great job. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Mann Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 2:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 photos uploaded I defenantly beleave the 316 ss is fine to, eather way has been proven, just personal preferance. I wouldnt do it the way I did it if it was tucked down under something and hard to get to or if I couldnt paint it inside and out. The side decks I opted to not mess with anymore, They are only 15" wide and when I torch cut them made them pretty wavey and puckerd "12 gage", my mistake when installing the forward side decks working against the camber of decks I only tacked every 6" then when I installed cabin sides I tacked angle iron next to inside edge of decks, all looked good but I didnt realize some of the waveyness moved to outside edge between tacks. With my good eyesite I stll didnt see till after all the welding was done. Mainly its only the first few few feet of the side decks on the outside edge. I figured I had two options to fix it, first cut the welds streighten it out and reweld and risk distortion on the 10 gage hull or try the jack and flat strip from under side force it streight and risk that distortion transferd to the 10 gage hull. Decks are fully welded top and bottom with stringer 7-1/2" from out side edge. When you look at picture from front you cant hardly notice it. Tom On 7/3/08, brentswain38 > wrote: > > I've been using 316 ss pipe nipples for 35 years and dozens of boats > with no problems. > You mentioned deck fairing on another site. You can do a lot to fair > a deck from inside with a hydraulic jack on the end of a post with a > bit of flatbar. Tack the flatbar to the low point of a depression, > then jack it up until the deck is fair. Then put more tacks along it, > then move the works to the next depression and do the same. > You could get an insurance surveyor to assess your boat. Asess it in > the contruction stage. Slop some orange paint on it to make it look > derelict.That establishes value for the life of the boat and it > depreciates for tax purposes from that point on. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent > > I like your idea of money where there mouth is, will try it as last > resort. > > I did give them a call and they admited they had nothing to go by > for the > > accessment other than size and year. I have to get all my paper work and > > pictures together and take them to there office, hopfully they come > up with > > somthing a little more realistic. > > This weekend I am going to atempt the inside, If things go right Blast > > with clean blast everything in one day and paint the next. I have > about 30 > > minutes of welding things in that I want to do first, one is the cockpit > > supports that attach to the hull, I am going to tie them in to the > engine > > beds. Next the front morring bit one brace from bottom of it to the > stem bar > > " yes I did end up putting in a stem bar ". last thing The one > through hull > > for the sink drain I put in, I didnt feel confy about the 316 > stainless pipe > > so I used a bit of old school 1-1/2" sch 40 steel pipe came up 4" > with weld > > flange then another weld flange another 4" pipe threaded on top with > bronze > > ball valve, valve is isolated from hull at flange, anyway the bottom > flange > > is within a few inches of stringer so a welded flat strip from flange to > > stringer will really strengthen the assy. > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/2/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > Great looking boat Tom. Well done. The snobs will envy you out on the > > > cruising grounds when their West Marine "style over substance "type > > > deck hardware keeps failing and leaking , or they have lost a > > > crewmember or two over their "style over substance" knee high > lifelines. > > > What you have, they can only appreciate after having a bit more > > > experience. Yachtyness loses its attraction out in the real world. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > We'll let the snobs carry on paying for their half million dollar > > > > penis extender type boats and the moorage on them while we > hillbillys > > > > go cruisin, and maybe send them the odd postcard in the dead of > > > > winter, just to let them know how right they are. > > > > Ask the assesor to pay you $35,000 on the spot , or offer it > to them > > > > cheap , for $30,000 and they can make a quick $5,000, without really > > > > trying. If they really believe their assesments, then it's time for > > > > them to put their money where their mouths are. If not, they have no > > > case. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "tazmannusa" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello all > > > > > Uploaded a few pictures of the 26 with some color to it. I think > > > shes > > > > > looking good even though some say origami is ugly and only > apeal to > > > > > hillbillys LOL. No finish coats yet thats just epoxy. > > > > > I just glanced at todays mail and there was a county accessors > > > letter > > > > > stating the aprased value on my 26 is $35,000. SOB's are crazy, > > > no way > > > > > in heck would it be worth that, there just jacking it up there so > > > they > > > > > can ding me 1% a year on that amount. Now I get to fight them > on that > > > > > and that aint easy when they make up there own rules as they > see fit. > > > > > Ok back to the boat,the bow shot picture shows where I am > > > mounting the > > > > > bow lights, 2 raised pipes about 3-1/2" tall,bottom of them are > > > open to > > > > > the inside for wiring and painting inside. I acualy got the idea > > > from a > > > > > glass boat that had them molded in the decks. > > > > > I do have one question, what or how are you going about > putting the > > > > > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted > with > > > > > epoxy it will cover them up. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo ! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.135 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 7/3/2008 7:19 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17758|17715|2008-07-05 07:18:03|pynrc@aol.com|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|Tom, I know it is more fiddly, but I prefer to cut 3mm (1/8") plate with an abrasive cut off wheel in a large angle grinder- that way you don't have the distortion. Regards, Richard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17759|17715|2008-07-05 08:38:57|Tom Mann|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|Yep a cut off wheel would have been a little better. After the decks were tacked in I bought a small plasma cutter, love it fast and no distortion very little edge clean up. I finished up the welding yesterday and stamped in the hull# here and there then set up the blaster and played with it a bit , doesnt seem to like the clean blast, plugs up a lot. The clean blast is nice stuff for doing the inside , you can see what your doing, only dust is from the rust and mill scale. Will see how it goes today. Tom On 7/5/08, pynrc@... wrote: > > Tom, I know it is more fiddly, but I prefer to cut 3mm (1/8") plate with an > abrasive cut off wheel in a large angle grinder- that way you don't have > the > distortion. Regards, Richard. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17760|17715|2008-07-05 08:40:09|Tom Mann|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|Thanks Paul Tom On 7/4/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Tom, > > I just looked at your photos. Your boat looks great. You have done a > great > job. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of Tom Mann > Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 2:14 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 photos uploaded > > I defenantly beleave the 316 ss is fine to, eather way has been proven, > just personal preferance. I wouldnt do it the way I did it if it was tucked > down under something and hard to get to or if I couldnt paint it inside and > out. > The side decks I opted to not mess with anymore, They are only 15" wide and > when I torch cut them made them pretty wavey and puckerd "12 gage", my > mistake when installing the forward side decks working against > the camber of decks I only tacked every 6" then when I installed cabin > sides > I tacked angle iron next to inside edge of decks, all looked good but I > didnt realize some of the waveyness moved to outside edge between tacks. > With my good eyesite I stll didnt see till after all the welding was done. > Mainly its only the first few few feet of the side decks on the outside > edge. I figured I had two options to fix it, first cut the welds streighten > it out and reweld and risk distortion on the 10 gage hull or try the jack > and flat strip from under side force it streight and risk that distortion > transferd to the 10 gage hull. Decks are fully welded top and bottom with > stringer 7-1/2" from out side edge. > When you look at picture from front you cant hardly notice it. > Tom > > On 7/3/08, brentswain38 > > > wrote: > > > > I've been using 316 ss pipe nipples for 35 years and dozens of boats > > with no problems. > > You mentioned deck fairing on another site. You can do a lot to fair > > a deck from inside with a hydraulic jack on the end of a post with a > > bit of flatbar. Tack the flatbar to the low point of a depression, > > then jack it up until the deck is fair. Then put more tacks along it, > > then move the works to the next depression and do the same. > > You could get an insurance surveyor to assess your boat. Asess it in > > the contruction stage. Slop some orange paint on it to make it look > > derelict.That establishes value for the life of the boat and it > > depreciates for tax purposes from that point on. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Brent > > > I like your idea of money where there mouth is, will try it as last > > resort. > > > I did give them a call and they admited they had nothing to go by > > for the > > > accessment other than size and year. I have to get all my paper work > and > > > pictures together and take them to there office, hopfully they come > > up with > > > somthing a little more realistic. > > > This weekend I am going to atempt the inside, If things go right Blast > > > with clean blast everything in one day and paint the next. I have > > about 30 > > > minutes of welding things in that I want to do first, one is the > cockpit > > > supports that attach to the hull, I am going to tie them in to the > > engine > > > beds. Next the front morring bit one brace from bottom of it to the > > stem bar > > > " yes I did end up putting in a stem bar ". last thing The one > > through hull > > > for the sink drain I put in, I didnt feel confy about the 316 > > stainless pipe > > > so I used a bit of old school 1-1/2" sch 40 steel pipe came up 4" > > with weld > > > flange then another weld flange another 4" pipe threaded on top with > > bronze > > > ball valve, valve is isolated from hull at flange, anyway the bottom > > flange > > > is within a few inches of stringer so a welded flat strip from flange > to > > > stringer will really strengthen the assy. > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > On 7/2/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > Great looking boat Tom. Well done. The snobs will envy you out on the > > > > cruising grounds when their West Marine "style over substance "type > > > > deck hardware keeps failing and leaking , or they have lost a > > > > crewmember or two over their "style over substance" knee high > > lifelines. > > > > What you have, they can only appreciate after having a bit more > > > > experience. Yachtyness loses its attraction out in the real world. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > We'll let the snobs carry on paying for their half million dollar > > > > > penis extender type boats and the moorage on them while we > > hillbillys > > > > > go cruisin, and maybe send them the odd postcard in the dead of > > > > > winter, just to let them know how right they are. > > > > > Ask the assesor to pay you $35,000 on the spot , or offer it > > to them > > > > > cheap , for $30,000 and they can make a quick $5,000, without > really > > > > > trying. If they really believe their assesments, then it's time for > > > > > them to put their money where their mouths are. If not, they have > no > > > > case. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "tazmannusa" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all > > > > > > Uploaded a few pictures of the 26 with some color to it. I think > > > > shes > > > > > > looking good even though some say origami is ugly and only > > apeal to > > > > > > hillbillys LOL. No finish coats yet thats just epoxy. > > > > > > I just glanced at todays mail and there was a county accessors > > > > letter > > > > > > stating the aprased value on my 26 is $35,000. SOB's are crazy, > > > > no way > > > > > > in heck would it be worth that, there just jacking it up there so > > > > they > > > > > > can ding me 1% a year on that amount. Now I get to fight them > > on that > > > > > > and that aint easy when they make up there own rules as they > > see fit. > > > > > > Ok back to the boat,the bow shot picture shows where I am > > > > mounting the > > > > > > bow lights, 2 raised pipes about 3-1/2" tall,bottom of them are > > > > open to > > > > > > the inside for wiring and painting inside. I acualy got the idea > > > > from a > > > > > > glass boat that had them molded in the decks. > > > > > > I do have one question, what or how are you going about > > putting the > > > > > > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted > > with > > > > > > epoxy it will cover them up. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.135 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 7/3/2008 > 7:19 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17761|17756|2008-07-05 17:55:24|brentswain38|Re: Materials question on BS31|Those are all 20 ft lengths as are the angles for hull stringers. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rd_cedar" wrote: > > Deck stiffeners on the materials list for the BS31 specifies > 10)1"X3/8" flatbar, but i didn't see any specification for the lengths. > | 17762|17719|2008-07-05 17:58:15|brentswain38|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |With big five automakers reporting sales down 20% and housing sales down 40% in Vancouver, I wonder if the Chinese main consumers of their manufactured goods running out of cash will slow down the world economy and thus their demand for steel. Anybody's guess. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Untill inflation gets so high that China and India has to slow down the cost will keep rising. Even then I bet it keeps going up just a little slower :-( My last order was 76 cents per pound. > Aaron > > --- On Thu, 7/3/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > From: djackson99@... > Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 5:58 PM > > > > > > > > I really hope you guys are not paying $2 a pound up there. If so then look into transportation cost. > > I just got a quote today.? 1/4" Plate is? 60.95/100 USD in Tulsa, OK. in widths 6 ft and under. > > Kay and I spent the evening reading everything we could on steel prices.? Needless to say we missed the window on "buy low". A few people think that steel prices will drop to 50/100 in the 4th quarter, those people are in the minority.? So we are bighting the bullet. We are even getting a 6.89% interest loan for a portion of the materials.? At least then we can loose money at know rate. > > Broke in Oklahoma > Doug J > www.submarineboat. com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 6:23 am > Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound? > > WOW $2 a pound I havnt heard of it getting that high yet. I will give my > > supplier a call today and see what prices are doing. Online is not the best > > place to get quotes for steel,call your local suppliers. where are you > > located? > > Tom > > On 7/2/08, rd_cedar wrote: > > > > > > Today doesn't look like a good day to buy steel. > > > The only online quote i could find for A-36 plate was $2.00 a lb. > > > Could that be right? > > > Has the price doubled in the last couple of months? > > > > > > Should i wait for the dollar to recover, oil to fall, and China to go > > > out of business, or should i buy now, because the fat days aren't > > > coming back? > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Gary Steel in Portland supplied the boats I've done in Frisco. They > > > > have a wheelabrader and good Devoe primer. > > > > Best get it paid for before the price goes even higher. Still a > > > > fraction the price of fibreglass and you don't get to use fibreglass > > > > scraps to build your anchor out of etc. That also doesn't count the > > > > cost of having to buy and bolt all your deck hardware onto a > > > > fibreglass boat. > > > > Then there is the cost of replacing a fibreglass boat whenever you > > > > hit a shipping container in the night, if you survive. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ronnie > > > > > Did you mean per 1 pound > > > > > $1.00 per 100 pounds is pretty cheap > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > On 7/1/08, Ronnie Foster wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Economically this may not be the time to begin building a steel > > > > boat. In > > > > > > our > > > > > > manufacturing process we have consumed approximately 40,000 > > > pounds > > > > of 3/16" > > > > > > plate this to date this year. In February we were paying $0.4255 > > > > per 100 > > > > > > pounds. After shopping nation wide, I purchased 15,000 pounds of > > > > 3/16" last > > > > > > week and paid $0.655 per 100 pounds. The expectation industry > > > wide > > > > is for > > > > > > the price of A36 Carbon Steel to be $1.00 per 100 pounds by > > > > December. The > > > > > > steel market is more volatile than I have seen it in the 30 > > > years > > > > we have > > > > > > been I business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just thought I would make you aware of the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let Me Know, > > > > > > > > > > > > Ronnie Foster > > > > > > > > > > > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > 18570 Van Road > > > > > > > > > > > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > > > > > > > > > > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > > > > > > > > > > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > > > > > > > > > > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] > > > > > > On > > > > > > Behalf Of rd_cedar > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:49 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Who has the best STEEL prices in > > > the > > > > Puget > > > > > > Sound? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I live in Port Townsend, and i want to build a BS31. > > > > > > > > > > > > Who should i buy my steel from? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17763|17715|2008-07-05 18:01:40|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|There is not much chance of the distortion going round the corner tot he hull. The problem is longitudinal weld shrink longitudinally. Thus only longitudinal stringers contain this on side decks. Beams are just to give her camber. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > I defenantly beleave the 316 ss is fine to, eather way has been proven, > just personal preferance. I wouldnt do it the way I did it if it was tucked > down under something and hard to get to or if I couldnt paint it inside and > out. > The side decks I opted to not mess with anymore, They are only 15" wide and > when I torch cut them made them pretty wavey and puckerd "12 gage", my > mistake when installing the forward side decks working against > the camber of decks I only tacked every 6" then when I installed cabin sides > I tacked angle iron next to inside edge of decks, all looked good but I > didnt realize some of the waveyness moved to outside edge between tacks. > With my good eyesite I stll didnt see till after all the welding was done. > Mainly its only the first few few feet of the side decks on the outside > edge. I figured I had two options to fix it, first cut the welds streighten > it out and reweld and risk distortion on the 10 gage hull or try the jack > and flat strip from under side force it streight and risk that distortion > transferd to the 10 gage hull. Decks are fully welded top and bottom with > stringer 7-1/2" from out side edge. > When you look at picture from front you cant hardly notice it. > Tom > > > On 7/3/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > I've been using 316 ss pipe nipples for 35 years and dozens of boats > > with no problems. > > You mentioned deck fairing on another site. You can do a lot to fair > > a deck from inside with a hydraulic jack on the end of a post with a > > bit of flatbar. Tack the flatbar to the low point of a depression, > > then jack it up until the deck is fair. Then put more tacks along it, > > then move the works to the next depression and do the same. > > You could get an insurance surveyor to assess your boat. Asess it in > > the contruction stage. Slop some orange paint on it to make it look > > derelict.That establishes value for the life of the boat and it > > depreciates for tax purposes from that point on. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Brent > > > I like your idea of money where there mouth is, will try it as last > > resort. > > > I did give them a call and they admited they had nothing to go by > > for the > > > accessment other than size and year. I have to get all my paper work and > > > pictures together and take them to there office, hopfully they come > > up with > > > somthing a little more realistic. > > > This weekend I am going to atempt the inside, If things go right Blast > > > with clean blast everything in one day and paint the next. I have > > about 30 > > > minutes of welding things in that I want to do first, one is the cockpit > > > supports that attach to the hull, I am going to tie them in to the > > engine > > > beds. Next the front morring bit one brace from bottom of it to the > > stem bar > > > " yes I did end up putting in a stem bar ". last thing The one > > through hull > > > for the sink drain I put in, I didnt feel confy about the 316 > > stainless pipe > > > so I used a bit of old school 1-1/2" sch 40 steel pipe came up 4" > > with weld > > > flange then another weld flange another 4" pipe threaded on top with > > bronze > > > ball valve, valve is isolated from hull at flange, anyway the bottom > > flange > > > is within a few inches of stringer so a welded flat strip from flange to > > > stringer will really strengthen the assy. > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > On 7/2/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > Great looking boat Tom. Well done. The snobs will envy you out on the > > > > cruising grounds when their West Marine "style over substance "type > > > > deck hardware keeps failing and leaking , or they have lost a > > > > crewmember or two over their "style over substance" knee high > > lifelines. > > > > What you have, they can only appreciate after having a bit more > > > > experience. Yachtyness loses its attraction out in the real world. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > We'll let the snobs carry on paying for their half million dollar > > > > > penis extender type boats and the moorage on them while we > > hillbillys > > > > > go cruisin, and maybe send them the odd postcard in the dead of > > > > > winter, just to let them know how right they are. > > > > > Ask the assesor to pay you $35,000 on the spot , or offer it > > to them > > > > > cheap , for $30,000 and they can make a quick $5,000, without really > > > > > trying. If they really believe their assesments, then it's time for > > > > > them to put their money where their mouths are. If not, they have no > > > > case. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all > > > > > > Uploaded a few pictures of the 26 with some color to it. I think > > > > shes > > > > > > looking good even though some say origami is ugly and only > > apeal to > > > > > > hillbillys LOL. No finish coats yet thats just epoxy. > > > > > > I just glanced at todays mail and there was a county accessors > > > > letter > > > > > > stating the aprased value on my 26 is $35,000. SOB's are crazy, > > > > no way > > > > > > in heck would it be worth that, there just jacking it up there so > > > > they > > > > > > can ding me 1% a year on that amount. Now I get to fight them > > on that > > > > > > and that aint easy when they make up there own rules as they > > see fit. > > > > > > Ok back to the boat,the bow shot picture shows where I am > > > > mounting the > > > > > > bow lights, 2 raised pipes about 3-1/2" tall,bottom of them are > > > > open to > > > > > > the inside for wiring and painting inside. I acualy got the idea > > > > from a > > > > > > glass boat that had them molded in the decks. > > > > > > I do have one question, what or how are you going about > > putting the > > > > > > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted > > with > > > > > > epoxy it will cover them up. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17764|17719|2008-07-05 18:54:28|polaris041|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget |Just a question; Where does the '[SPAM]' heading originate on a few posts on this forum. My sever sends these to the bin, hence I miss getting them as email. regards pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With big five automakers reporting sales down 20% and housing sales > down 40% in Vancouver, I wonder if the Chinese main consumers of their > manufactured goods running out of cash will slow down the world > economy and thus their demand for steel. Anybody's guess. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Untill inflation gets so high that China and India has to slow down > the cost will keep rising. Even then I bet it keeps going up just a > little slower :-( My last order was 76 cents per pound. > > Aaron > > > > --- On Thu, 7/3/08, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > From: djackson99@ > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Who has the best STEEL prices in > the Puget Sound? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 5:58 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really hope you guys are not paying $2 a pound up there. If so > then look into transportation cost. > > > > I just got a quote today.? 1/4" Plate is? 60.95/100 USD in Tulsa, > OK. in widths 6 ft and under. > > > > Kay and I spent the evening reading everything we could on steel > prices.? Needless to say we missed the window on "buy low". A few > people think that steel prices will drop to 50/100 in the 4th quarter, > those people are in the minority.? So we are bighting the bullet. We > are even getting a 6.89% interest loan for a portion of the > materials.? At least then we can loose money at know rate. > > > > Broke in Oklahoma > > Doug J > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 6:23 am > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Who has the best STEEL prices . | 17765|17719|2008-07-05 21:35:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Who has the best STEEL prices in the Puget Sound?|On Sat, Jul 05, 2008 at 10:54:27PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > Just a question; > Where does the '[SPAM]' heading originate on a few posts on this > forum. My sever sends these to the bin, hence I miss getting them as > email. I suspect that somebody on the list has SpamAssassin running on their system but does not have the origamiboats@ address whitelisted. Then, when their system prefixes the subject with '[SPAM]', it gets propagated through the rest of the discussion. I'll clip it off my reply just so this doesn't get dustbinned. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17766|11996|2008-07-05 22:00:10|Tom Mann|Sandblasting inside|Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17767|11996|2008-07-05 22:52:28|martin demers|Re: Sandblasting inside|isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: tazmannm@... Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticonesgratuites.ca/?icid=EMFRCA120 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17768|11996|2008-07-06 01:41:51|mauro gonzaga|Re: Sandblasting inside|You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two coats of epoxy paint. Mauro  --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? Martin. To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com From: tazmannm@gmail. com Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17769|11996|2008-07-06 09:40:33|Tom Mann|Re: Sandblasting inside|Even If wire brushing were saticfactory, doing the whole inside in one shot, Me thinks that would be about 1 notch higher on the fun scale compared to sandblastin. Easy way out Rust bullet. Tom On 7/5/08, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power > steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use > proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two > coats of epoxy paint. > Mauro > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM > > > > > > > > isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 > pounds pressure)? > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: tazmannm@gmail. com > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is > > sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem > > with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after > > running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks > > of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see > > nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white > > blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good > > thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set > > of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL > > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17770|11996|2008-07-06 14:48:06|martin demers|Re: milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar|there was a post last winter about removing rust with milkstone acid rinse and it was said that it was no really good because there was always some acid staying on the metal surface and rust was reapearing. what about vinegar? does someone knows the difference between the two? is vinegar easier to wash after rust is remove? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: maurogonzaga1940@... > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:41:48 -0700 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > > You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two coats of epoxy paint. > Mauro > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM > > isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: tazmannm@gmail. com > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is > > sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem > > with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after > > running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks > > of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see > > nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white > > blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good > > thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set > > of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL > > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticonesgratuites.ca/?icid=EMFRCA120| 17771|17715|2008-07-06 17:45:17|Tom Mann|Re: BS 26 photos uploaded|We just figured out another good reason for a bit oversized through hull, stick funnel on it and dump the sand out, beats the heck out of carrying it out in buckets. Finished up the blasting today and getting her cleaned up ready for paint, skiped the keel under floor,found it easyer with floor in working about . Tom On 7/5/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > There is not much chance of the distortion going round the corner tot > he hull. The problem is longitudinal weld shrink longitudinally. Thus > only longitudinal stringers contain this on side decks. Beams are just > to give her camber. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > I defenantly beleave the 316 ss is fine to, eather way has been > proven, > > just personal preferance. I wouldnt do it the way I did it if it was > tucked > > down under something and hard to get to or if I couldnt paint it > inside and > > out. > > The side decks I opted to not mess with anymore, They are only 15" > wide and > > when I torch cut them made them pretty wavey and puckerd "12 gage", my > > mistake when installing the forward side decks working against > > the camber of decks I only tacked every 6" then when I installed > cabin sides > > I tacked angle iron next to inside edge of decks, all looked good but I > > didnt realize some of the waveyness moved to outside edge between tacks. > > With my good eyesite I stll didnt see till after all the welding was > done. > > Mainly its only the first few few feet of the side decks on the outside > > edge. I figured I had two options to fix it, first cut the welds > streighten > > it out and reweld and risk distortion on the 10 gage hull or try the > jack > > and flat strip from under side force it streight and risk that > distortion > > transferd to the 10 gage hull. Decks are fully welded top and bottom > with > > stringer 7-1/2" from out side edge. > > When you look at picture from front you cant hardly notice it. > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/3/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > I've been using 316 ss pipe nipples for 35 years and dozens of boats > > > with no problems. > > > You mentioned deck fairing on another site. You can do a lot to fair > > > a deck from inside with a hydraulic jack on the end of a post with a > > > bit of flatbar. Tack the flatbar to the low point of a depression, > > > then jack it up until the deck is fair. Then put more tacks along it, > > > then move the works to the next depression and do the same. > > > You could get an insurance surveyor to assess your boat. Asess it in > > > the contruction stage. Slop some orange paint on it to make it look > > > derelict.That establishes value for the life of the boat and it > > > depreciates for tax purposes from that point on. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Brent > > > > I like your idea of money where there mouth is, will try it as last > > > resort. > > > > I did give them a call and they admited they had nothing to go by > > > for the > > > > accessment other than size and year. I have to get all my paper > work and > > > > pictures together and take them to there office, hopfully they come > > > up with > > > > somthing a little more realistic. > > > > This weekend I am going to atempt the inside, If things go > right Blast > > > > with clean blast everything in one day and paint the next. I have > > > about 30 > > > > minutes of welding things in that I want to do first, one is the > cockpit > > > > supports that attach to the hull, I am going to tie them in to the > > > engine > > > > beds. Next the front morring bit one brace from bottom of it to the > > > stem bar > > > > " yes I did end up putting in a stem bar ". last thing The one > > > through hull > > > > for the sink drain I put in, I didnt feel confy about the 316 > > > stainless pipe > > > > so I used a bit of old school 1-1/2" sch 40 steel pipe came up 4" > > > with weld > > > > flange then another weld flange another 4" pipe threaded on top with > > > bronze > > > > ball valve, valve is isolated from hull at flange, anyway the bottom > > > flange > > > > is within a few inches of stringer so a welded flat strip from > flange to > > > > stringer will really strengthen the assy. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/2/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Great looking boat Tom. Well done. The snobs will envy you out > on the > > > > > cruising grounds when their West Marine "style over substance > "type > > > > > deck hardware keeps failing and leaking , or they have lost a > > > > > crewmember or two over their "style over substance" knee high > > > lifelines. > > > > > What you have, they can only appreciate after having a bit more > > > > > experience. Yachtyness loses its attraction out in the real world. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > We'll let the snobs carry on paying for their half million > dollar > > > > > > penis extender type boats and the moorage on them while we > > > hillbillys > > > > > > go cruisin, and maybe send them the odd postcard in the dead of > > > > > > winter, just to let them know how right they are. > > > > > > Ask the assesor to pay you $35,000 on the spot , or offer it > > > to them > > > > > > cheap , for $30,000 and they can make a quick $5,000, > without really > > > > > > trying. If they really believe their assesments, then it's > time for > > > > > > them to put their money where their mouths are. If not, they > have no > > > > > case. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all > > > > > > > Uploaded a few pictures of the 26 with some color to it. > I think > > > > > shes > > > > > > > looking good even though some say origami is ugly and only > > > apeal to > > > > > > > hillbillys LOL. No finish coats yet thats just epoxy. > > > > > > > I just glanced at todays mail and there was a county > accessors > > > > > letter > > > > > > > stating the aprased value on my 26 is $35,000. SOB's are > crazy, > > > > > no way > > > > > > > in heck would it be worth that, there just jacking it up > there so > > > > > they > > > > > > > can ding me 1% a year on that amount. Now I get to fight them > > > on that > > > > > > > and that aint easy when they make up there own rules as they > > > see fit. > > > > > > > Ok back to the boat,the bow shot picture shows where I am > > > > > mounting the > > > > > > > bow lights, 2 raised pipes about 3-1/2" tall,bottom of > them are > > > > > open to > > > > > > > the inside for wiring and painting inside. I acualy got > the idea > > > > > from a > > > > > > > glass boat that had them molded in the decks. > > > > > > > I do have one question, what or how are you going about > > > putting the > > > > > > > hull ID# on the transom? If I just stamp them in, when painted > > > with > > > > > > > epoxy it will cover them up. > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17772|11996|2008-07-07 03:10:59|polaris041|Re: Sandblasting inside|Has anyone ever had experience with the product "POR 15".(google it). Sounds too good to be true for all those oppossed to grit blasting. regards Pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Even If wire brushing were saticfactory, doing the whole inside in one > shot, Me thinks that would be about 1 notch higher on the fun scale compared > to sandblastin. > Easy way out Rust bullet. > Tom | 17773|17773|2008-07-07 05:19:24|pamela.darlington|Fresh Freebies (7th July)|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://freebiesweekly.blogspot.com/2008_07_05_archive.html When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17774|11996|2008-07-07 10:30:04|A BOUCHER|Re: Sandblasting inside|Our experience with POR 15 in the northeast hasn't been all that good. In a year or two on car chassis it rusts underneath. This is usually caused by thin areas on edges or holidays at frame connections that allow moisture to get underneath the coating. A phosphate conversion coating followed by a zinc rich paint or coal tar epoxy is probably a better solution. ----- Original Message ----- From: polaris041 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 3:10 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside Has anyone ever had experience with the product "POR 15".(google it). Sounds too good to be true for all those oppossed to grit blasting. regards Pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Even If wire brushing were saticfactory, doing the whole inside in one > shot, Me thinks that would be about 1 notch higher on the fun scale compared > to sandblastin. > Easy way out Rust bullet. > Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17775|11996|2008-07-07 12:48:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: Sandblasting inside|On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 10:31:41AM -0400, A BOUCHER wrote: > Our experience with POR 15 in the northeast hasn't been all that good. > In a year or two on car chassis it rusts underneath. Unfortunately, that was my experience with it too. My wife wanted to give this stuff a good test, so she picked a rusty area and followed the manufacturer's instructions (with the nitpicking precision that I can only ascribe to her Japanese ancestry. :) In less than two years, the stuff - essentially a hard plastic coating - peeled up and the steel underneath started rusting again. My best guess is that the daily thermal expansion and contraction of the steel just worked that stuff off. Maybe it's a little too rigid? > A phosphate conversion > coating followed by a zinc rich paint or coal tar epoxy is probably a > better solution. Seems like it. I haven't found any perfect solutions, but chipping, grinding, Ospho, and a good epoxy has held up longer than anything else for fixing rust. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17776|11996|2008-07-07 13:50:26|martin demers|Re: Sandblasting inside|can you tell me what is a phosphate conversion coating? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ben@... > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:47:59 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > > On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 10:31:41AM -0400, A BOUCHER wrote: >> Our experience with POR 15 in the northeast hasn't been all that good. >> In a year or two on car chassis it rusts underneath. > > Unfortunately, that was my experience with it too. My wife wanted to > give this stuff a good test, so she picked a rusty area and followed the > manufacturer's instructions (with the nitpicking precision that I can > only ascribe to her Japanese ancestry. :) In less than two years, the > stuff - essentially a hard plastic coating - peeled up and the steel > underneath started rusting again. My best guess is that the daily > thermal expansion and contraction of the steel just worked that stuff > off. Maybe it's a little too rigid? > >> A phosphate conversion >> coating followed by a zinc rich paint or coal tar epoxy is probably a >> better solution. > > Seems like it. I haven't found any perfect solutions, but chipping, > grinding, Ospho, and a good epoxy has held up longer than anything else > for fixing rust. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > _________________________________________________________________ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticonesgratuites.ca/?icid=EMFRCA120| 17777|11996|2008-07-07 14:22:38|A BOUCHER|Re: Sandblasting inside|If you believe the advertising, its a phosphate based liquid that is brushed on solid rust after removing the loose flakey particles that converts the rust into a hard, insoluble protective coating. I can't say its significantly better than just a straight phosphate pretreatment, but like the old chicken soup joke, it couldn't hurt. SEM makes what they call Rustmort. I'm sure there are others. One disadvantage of the product is that it has to be wiped with a rag wet with water and then allowed to dry before painting I'm sure Google would find you a bunch of others.----- Original Message ----- From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 1:50 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside can you tell me what is a phosphate conversion coating? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ben@... > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:47:59 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > > On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 10:31:41AM -0400, A BOUCHER wrote: >> Our experience with POR 15 in the northeast hasn't been all that good. >> In a year or two on car chassis it rusts underneath. > > Unfortunately, that was my experience with it too. My wife wanted to > give this stuff a good test, so she picked a rusty area and followed the > manufacturer's instructions (with the nitpicking precision that I can > only ascribe to her Japanese ancestry. :) In less than two years, the > stuff - essentially a hard plastic coating - peeled up and the steel > underneath started rusting again. My best guess is that the daily > thermal expansion and contraction of the steel just worked that stuff > off. Maybe it's a little too rigid? > >> A phosphate conversion >> coating followed by a zinc rich paint or coal tar epoxy is probably a >> better solution. > > Seems like it. I haven't found any perfect solutions, but chipping, > grinding, Ospho, and a good epoxy has held up longer than anything else > for fixing rust. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > __________________________________________________________ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticonesgratuites.ca/?icid=EMFRCA120 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17778|11996|2008-07-07 14:30:21|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting inside|I once sandblasted a 36 single keeler inside and out. For the inside I cut a 6 inch square hole at the trailing end of the bottom of the keel to let the sand out. It sure beat shoveling it out. When I was done , I blasted the piece I cut out, welded it in then blasted the welds. Much simpler than having to shovel all that sand over the bulwarks. I haven't found that rust converter to last very long.I wouldn't risk it inside as you never get to see how it is doing once the foam is in and if there is a problem it is a huge problem. Sandblasting and epoxy tar is well proven. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is > sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem > with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after > running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks > of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see > nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white > blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good > thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set > of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17779|11996|2008-07-07 14:33:14|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting inside|For the outside, any fresh water beach sand is every bit as good as wheelabrading, as long as you sift it thru a window screen and it is very dry. Tom , it sounds like you have ideal sandblastingand painting weather down there. Best rig a tarp over her so she doesn't get too hot. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I once sandblasted a 36 single keeler inside and out. For the inside I > cut a 6 inch square hole at the trailing end of the bottom of the > keel to let the sand out. It sure beat shoveling it out. When I was > done , I blasted the piece I cut out, welded it in then blasted the > welds. Much simpler than having to shovel all that sand over the bulwarks. > I haven't found that rust converter to last very long.I wouldn't risk > it inside as you never get to see how it is doing once the foam is in > and if there is a problem it is a huge problem. Sandblasting and epoxy > tar is well proven. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can > say is > > sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem > > with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after > > running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 > sacks > > of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you > cant see > > nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white > > blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. > One good > > thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with > extra set > > of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17780|11996|2008-07-07 15:59:27|Paul Wilson|Re: Sandblasting inside|From what I have heard the POR 15 is good in an area like the bilge but so shiny-hard it is very difficult to get other coatings to stick to it. I heard (second hand) of one boat that used it below the waterline and the anti-fouling fell off in sheets. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of A BOUCHER Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 2:32 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside Our experience with POR 15 in the northeast hasn't been all that good. In a year or two on car chassis it rusts underneath. This is usually caused by thin areas on edges or holidays at frame connections that allow moisture to get underneath the coating. A phosphate conversion coating followed by a zinc rich paint or coal tar epoxy is probably a better solution. ----- Original Message ----- From: polaris041 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 3:10 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside Has anyone ever had experience with the product "POR 15".(google it). Sounds too good to be true for all those oppossed to grit blasting. regards Pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Even If wire brushing were saticfactory, doing the whole inside in one > shot, Me thinks that would be about 1 notch higher on the fun scale compared > to sandblastin. > Easy way out Rust bullet. > Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1537 - Release Date: 7/6/2008 5:26 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17781|11996|2008-07-07 19:01:42|Tom Mann|Re: Sandblasting inside|Well I dont no about the perfect conditions, Its dam hot but it is dry. Just got through painting, going to wait another hour or so the top of boat will be in shade then finish up. Nice thing with this micropoxy it has a temp range of 40 to 140 degrees and its a little over a 100 now. Painting in the lazzerett and under cockpit area was interesting using HVLP gun, I didnt think I was that limber anymore, I did that first then the bow peak and under decks now the rest feels like a picnic. Sandblast sand is up to $8.50 a 100# sack and 100# dont go very far , I would allmost be willing to bet its cheaper getting wheel abraded and pre primed. Tom On 7/7/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > For the outside, any fresh water beach sand is every bit as good as > wheelabrading, as long as you sift it thru a window screen and it is > very dry. > Tom , it sounds like you have ideal sandblastingand painting weather > down there. Best rig a tarp over her so she doesn't get too hot. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I once sandblasted a 36 single keeler inside and out. For the inside I > > cut a 6 inch square hole at the trailing end of the bottom of the > > keel to let the sand out. It sure beat shoveling it out. When I was > > done , I blasted the piece I cut out, welded it in then blasted the > > welds. Much simpler than having to shovel all that sand over the > bulwarks. > > I haven't found that rust converter to last very long.I wouldn't risk > > it inside as you never get to see how it is doing once the foam is in > > and if there is a problem it is a huge problem. Sandblasting and epoxy > > tar is well proven. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can > > say is > > > sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my > problem > > > with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and > after > > > running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 > > sacks > > > of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you > > cant see > > > nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white > > > blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. > > One good > > > thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with > > extra set > > > of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17782|11996|2008-07-07 22:36:04|Tom Mann|Re: Sandblasting inside|I bought a couple gallons of rust bullet and was considering painting with that instead of blasting, coupla reasons I didnt was the temps are to high for it and allso I bought the automotive formula so I could spray with HVLP gun problem with that is it will take about 3 coats at 2 to 4 hours apart and then 24 hours later has to be top coated or it would have to be sanded for the paint to stick. Bit to much painting all at the same time for me Tom On 7/7/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From what I have heard the POR 15 is good in an area like the bilge but so > shiny-hard it is very difficult to get other coatings to stick to it. I > heard (second hand) of one boat that used it below the waterline and the > anti-fouling fell off in sheets. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of A BOUCHER > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 2:32 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > Our experience with POR 15 in the northeast hasn't been all that good. In a > year or two on car chassis it rusts underneath. This is usually caused by > thin areas on edges or holidays at frame connections that allow moisture to > get underneath the coating. A phosphate conversion coating followed by a > zinc rich paint or coal tar epoxy is probably a better solution. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: polaris041 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 3:10 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > Has anyone ever had experience with the product "POR 15".(google it). > > Sounds too good to be true for all those oppossed to grit blasting. > > regards Pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Even If wire brushing were saticfactory, doing the whole inside in > one > > shot, Me thinks that would be about 1 notch higher on the fun scale > compared > > to sandblastin. > > Easy way out Rust bullet. > > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1537 - Release Date: 7/6/2008 > 5:26 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17783|11996|2008-07-08 13:02:47|Pradyumn kapoor|Re: Sandblasting inside|don't send me stupid messages --- On Tue, 8/7/08, Tom Mann wrote: From: Tom Mann Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 8 July, 2008, 8:05 AM ;;;I bought a couple gallons of rust bullet and was considering painting with that instead of blasting, coupla reasons I didnt was the temps are to high for it and allso I bought the automotive formula so I could spray with HVLP gun problem with that is it will take about 3 coats at 2 to 4 hours apart and then 24 hours later has to be top coated or it would have to be sanded for the paint to stick. Bit to much painting all at the same time for me Tom On 7/7/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From what I have heard the POR 15 is good in an area like the bilge but so > shiny-hard it is very difficult to get other coatings to stick to it. I > heard (second hand) of one boat that used it below the waterline and the > anti-fouling fell off in sheets. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] > On > Behalf Of A BOUCHER > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 2:32 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > Our experience with POR 15 in the northeast hasn't been all that good. In a > year or two on car chassis it rusts underneath. This is usually caused by > thin areas on edges or holidays at frame connections that allow moisture to > get underneath the coating. A phosphate conversion coating followed by a > zinc rich paint or coal tar epoxy is probably a better solution. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: polaris041 > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 3:10 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > Has anyone ever had experience with the product "POR 15".(google it). > > Sounds too good to be true for all those oppossed to grit blasting. > > regards Pol > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > , "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Even If wire brushing were saticfactory, doing the whole inside in > one > > shot, Me thinks that would be about 1 notch higher on the fun scale > compared > > to sandblastin. > > Easy way out Rust bullet. > > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1537 - Release Date: 7/6/2008 > 5:26 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Meet people who discuss and share your passions. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/bestofyahoo/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17784|11996|2008-07-08 13:18:59|Tom Mann|Re: Sandblasting inside|You replied to my message, Did I send you a stupid message? Tom On 7/8/08, Pradyumn kapoor wrote: > > don't send me stupid messages > > > --- On Tue, 8/7/08, Tom Mann wrote: > > From: Tom Mann > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, 8 July, 2008, 8:05 AM > > > > > > > ;;;I bought a couple gallons of rust bullet and was considering painting > with > that instead of blasting, coupla reasons I didnt was the temps are to high > for it and allso I bought the automotive formula so I could spray with HVLP > gun problem with that is it will take about 3 coats at 2 to 4 hours apart > and then 24 hours later has to be top coated or it would have to be sanded > for the paint to stick. Bit to much painting all at the same time for me > Tom > > On 7/7/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > From what I have heard the POR 15 is good in an area like the bilge but > so > > shiny-hard it is very difficult to get other coatings to stick to it. I > > heard (second hand) of one boat that used it below the waterline and the > > anti-fouling fell off in sheets. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. > com] > > On > > Behalf Of A BOUCHER > > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 2:32 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > > > Our experience with POR 15 in the northeast hasn't been all that good. In > a > > year or two on car chassis it rusts underneath. This is usually caused by > > thin areas on edges or holidays at frame connections that allow moisture > to > > get underneath the coating. A phosphate conversion coating followed by a > > zinc rich paint or coal tar epoxy is probably a better solution. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: polaris041 > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com com > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 3:10 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > > > Has anyone ever had experience with the product "POR 15".(google it). > > > > Sounds too good to be true for all those oppossed to grit blasting. > > > > regards Pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > , "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Even If wire brushing were saticfactory, doing the whole inside in > > one > > > shot, Me thinks that would be about 1 notch higher on the fun scale > > compared > > > to sandblastin. > > > Easy way out Rust bullet. > > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1537 - Release Date: 7/6/2008 > > 5:26 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meet people who discuss and share your passions. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/bestofyahoo/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17785|17785|2008-07-08 14:01:22|Tom Mann|Hy-Tech insulating additive|Hello All I mixed up a quart of epoxy and mixed in 8 oz of ceramic beads, thinned about 30% and it shoots fine from HVLP gun, shot it on pretty heavy, the mix didnt quite finish inside of trunk cabin. Leaves a tectured finsh. It did dull the white a little bit and I was hoping it would have dulled it more. This is going to be the finish on inside. I may do the top sides the same, It will give a bit more insulation and a somewhat non slip finish. From what I was reading on it the ceramic beads allso help with uv on the paint so maybe the epoxy will hold up better and not chalk as bad. Time will tell Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17786|11996|2008-07-08 16:25:05|Paul Thompson|Re: Sandblasting inside|Tom, Don't bother with this stupid prick. He (she, it) has sent for or five messages in the past and they are all variations on the one he sent you. The sender might (very likely) not even be a person, but a bot. What has happened to our moderator? This whatever it is, needs to be kicked off the list. Oh, and also the one that comes up with the freebie posts every now and again. Regards, Paul. On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:18 AM, Tom Mann wrote: > You replied to my message, Did I send you a stupid message? > Tom > > > On 7/8/08, Pradyumn kapoor wrote: > > > > don't send me stupid messages > > > > > > --- On Tue, 8/7/08, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > From: Tom Mann > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tuesday, 8 July, 2008, 8:05 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ;;;I bought a couple gallons of rust bullet and was considering painting > > with > > that instead of blasting, coupla reasons I didnt was the temps are to > high > > for it and allso I bought the automotive formula so I could spray with > HVLP > > gun problem with that is it will take about 3 coats at 2 to 4 hours apart > > and then 24 hours later has to be top coated or it would have to be > sanded > > for the paint to stick. Bit to much painting all at the same time for me > > Tom > > > > On 7/7/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > From what I have heard the POR 15 is good in an area like the bilge but > > so > > > shiny-hard it is very difficult to get other coatings to stick to it. I > > > heard (second hand) of one boat that used it below the waterline and > the > > > anti-fouling fell off in sheets. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups. > > com] > > > On > > > Behalf Of A BOUCHER > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 2:32 AM > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > > > > > Our experience with POR 15 in the northeast hasn't been all that good. > In > > a > > > year or two on car chassis it rusts underneath. This is usually caused > by > > > thin areas on edges or holidays at frame connections that allow > moisture > > to > > > get underneath the coating. A phosphate conversion coating followed by > a > > > zinc rich paint or coal tar epoxy is probably a better solution. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: polaris041 > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > com > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 3:10 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > > > > > Has anyone ever had experience with the product "POR 15".(google it). > > > > > > Sounds too good to be true for all those oppossed to grit blasting. > > > > > > regards Pol > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com origamiboats%40yahoogroups .. > com > > > > > > > , "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > > > Even If wire brushing were saticfactory, doing the whole inside in > > > one > > > > shot, Me thinks that would be about 1 notch higher on the fun scale > > > compared > > > > to sandblastin. > > > > Easy way out Rust bullet. > > > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com > > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1537 - Release Date: > 7/6/2008 > > > 5:26 AM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meet people who discuss and share your passions. Go to > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/bestofyahoo/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17787|11996|2008-07-09 01:59:14|Abraham George|Re: Sandblasting inside|It would be much better and nice for all, if the language s a wee little bit more better and polite...   Fair winds mate...   Abrams       --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Pradyumn kapoor wrote: From: Pradyumn kapoor Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:02 PM don't send me stupid messages --- On Tue, 8/7/08, Tom Mann wrote: From: Tom Mann Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Tuesday, 8 July, 2008, 8:05 AM ;;;I bought a couple gallons of rust bullet and was considering painting with that instead of blasting, coupla reasons I didnt was the temps are to high for it and allso I bought the automotive formula so I could spray with HVLP gun problem with that is it will take about 3 coats at 2 to 4 hours apart and then 24 hours later has to be top coated or it would have to be sanded for the paint to stick. Bit to much painting all at the same time for me Tom On 7/7/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From what I have heard the POR 15 is good in an area like the bilge but so > shiny-hard it is very difficult to get other coatings to stick to it. I > heard (second hand) of one boat that used it below the waterline and the > anti-fouling fell off in sheets. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboat s@ yahoogroups. com] > On > Behalf Of A BOUCHER > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 2:32 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > Our experience with POR 15 in the northeast hasn't been all that good. In a > year or two on car chassis it rusts underneath. This is usually caused by > thin areas on edges or holidays at frame connections that allow moisture to > get underneath the coating. A phosphate conversion coating followed by a > zinc rich paint or coal tar epoxy is probably a better solution. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: polaris041 > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 3:10 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting inside > > Has anyone ever had experience with the product "POR 15".(google it). > > Sounds too good to be true for all those oppossed to grit blasting. > > regards Pol > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > , "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Even If wire brushing were saticfactory, doing the whole inside in > one > > shot, Me thinks that would be about 1 notch higher on the fun scale > compared > > to sandblastin. > > Easy way out Rust bullet. > > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1537 - Release Date: 7/6/2008 > 5:26 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Meet people who discuss and share your passions. Go to http://in.promos yahoo.com/ groups/bestofyah oo/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17788|17788|2008-07-09 07:24:14|crowleyanita|New Free-Stuff 9th July|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://freebiesweekly.blogspot.com/2008_07_08_archive.html When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17789|17785|2008-07-09 15:26:29|brentswain38|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|It will be great to hear how it works out thru a winter. Let us know. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello All > I mixed up a quart of epoxy and mixed in 8 oz of ceramic beads, thinned > about 30% and it shoots fine from HVLP gun, shot it on pretty heavy, the mix > didnt quite finish inside of trunk cabin. Leaves a tectured finsh. It did > dull the white a little bit and I was hoping it would have dulled it more. > This is going to be the finish on inside. I may do the top sides the same, > It will give a bit more insulation and a somewhat non slip finish. From what > I was reading on it the ceramic beads allso help with uv on the paint so > maybe the epoxy will hold up better and not chalk as bad. > Time will tell > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17790|17785|2008-07-09 17:13:48|Tom Mann|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|Will do Went out at O dark thirty mixing paint, shot on another 1-1/2 quarts, cut back a tad on reducer, paint went a little farther but the surface not as smooth. 30 to 33% seems to be the ticket for spraying. To hot here now for spraying in the day time 108 today. Maybee the paint can take it but I cant. Anybody ever tryed shooting epoxy with an airless sprayer? never used one myself but they are a lot faster from what I'm told. Tom On 7/9/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > It will be great to hear how it works out thru a winter. > Let us know. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17791|17785|2008-07-09 18:19:45|brentswain38|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|I've used airless. My first cheapie worked well with thinned epoxy tar when it was new, but didn't work the last time I tried it. I once used a commercial heavy duty one from the rentals. It was wonderful. It took 15 minutes to put a coat on the entire inside of a 36. If you rent one , don't mention the word "Boat" or they will think "Epoxy " and won't rent it to you. Just say you are painting your house with oil base paint, and clean it with lots of thinner whenever you are finished for a few hours. It was well worth the cost of rental. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Will do > Went out at O dark thirty mixing paint, shot on another 1-1/2 quarts, cut > back a tad on reducer, paint went a little farther but the surface not as > smooth. 30 to 33% seems to be the ticket for spraying. To hot here now for > spraying in the day time 108 today. Maybee the paint can take it but I cant. > Anybody ever tryed shooting epoxy with an airless sprayer? never used one > myself but they are a lot faster from what I'm told. > Tom > > > On 7/9/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > It will be great to hear how it works out thru a winter. > > Let us know. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17792|17785|2008-07-09 20:00:46|A BOUCHER|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|Marine Business Journal just did a promo piece on Mascoat. You still have to apply it to a clean dry rustfree service, but it might be an interesting alternative. Look at mascoat.com ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 6:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive I've used airless. My first cheapie worked well with thinned epoxy tar when it was new, but didn't work the last time I tried it. I once used a commercial heavy duty one from the rentals. It was wonderful. It took 15 minutes to put a coat on the entire inside of a 36. If you rent one , don't mention the word "Boat" or they will think "Epoxy " and won't rent it to you. Just say you are painting your house with oil base paint, and clean it with lots of thinner whenever you are finished for a few hours. It was well worth the cost of rental. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Will do > Went out at O dark thirty mixing paint, shot on another 1-1/2 quarts, cut > back a tad on reducer, paint went a little farther but the surface not as > smooth. 30 to 33% seems to be the ticket for spraying. To hot here now for > spraying in the day time 108 today. Maybee the paint can take it but I cant. > Anybody ever tryed shooting epoxy with an airless sprayer? never used one > myself but they are a lot faster from what I'm told. > Tom > > > On 7/9/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > It will be great to hear how it works out thru a winter. > > Let us know. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17793|17793|2008-07-11 10:38:37|philip878|The analytic|i have these free plans on building this steel yacth is it built the same way as what s on here......they are in C A D| 17794|11996|2008-07-11 12:54:22|will jones|Re: milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar|Milkstone acid rinse is typically phosphoric acid mixed with some detergents for dissolving calcium and magnesium deposits.  So save some money and just get phoshoric acid.   Vinegar is a weak organic acid and really isn't good for rust removal whereas phosphoric acid is a mineral acid.  If you use 85% phosphoric acid you get a moderate rust inhibition benefit through the formation of iron phosphate crystals on the surface of your steel.  These will be black.  Make sure you degrease your steel before you hit with phosphoric acid or any acid for that matter.  Heavy rust will require several acid treatments at ambient temperatures.  This pretty much holds true for even sulphuric acid, which is used for pickling and rust removal.  150F or more in temperature is usually required to get a good benefit from acid treatment.   Acid staying on steel or in micropores of steel after a rinsing with water is a myth.  Rust is reappearing because fresh iron has been exposed, that is, the steel has been etched exposing fresh iron to be oxidized.  If left wet then you have a nice oxygen rich electrochemical cell.  If left exposed to the atmosphere, humidity and oxygen oxidize the iron to iron(II) or rust.  This is why it is important to clean, acid treat, rinse, dry, prime in as short a time frame as possible. Same with grinding, wirewheeling or sandblasting, especially to white. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 2:48 PM there was a post last winter about removing rust with milkstone acid rinse and it was said that it was no really good because there was always some acid staying on the metal surface and rust was reapearing. what about vinegar? does someone knows the difference between the two? is vinegar easier to wash after rust is remove? Martin. ____________ _________ _________ __ > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: maurogonzaga1940@ yahoo.com > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:41:48 -0700 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > > You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two coats of epoxy paint. > Mauro > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM > > isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: tazmannm@gmail. com > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is > > sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem > > with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after > > running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks > > of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see > > nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white > > blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good > > thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set > > of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL > > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17795|11996|2008-07-11 13:42:49|djackson99@aol.com|I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|We have our steel plate, pipe, and angle coming in the next couple of weeks, but we don't plan to do start building until next Spring.? So what should we do for the steel in the interim.? Nothing or oil and cover it or something else? That last tread about the challenges of blasting inside the hull is still in mind. So we are also debating blasting to white and priming it before we start. We can easily move the plates around since we have a gantry.? Is there too much waste in this approach?? I can rent the 185cfm compressor and 300 lb pot for $650 a week.? I am thinking I can blast and prime everything and then do the follow-up work with small equipment as we go. Thanks for you help. Doug J www.submarineboat.com ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17796|11996|2008-07-11 14:03:35|martin demers|Re: milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar|Hi Morgan, I dipped some rusted steel pieces in some vinegar and it did removed the rust but needed some minor brushing to removed it, then I rinsed with some water and a very light cloud of rust appeared shortly after. I presume it would be OK to paint on top of it. I didn't try that experience on heavy rust though. I also noticed that steel does not rust as fast after sandblast with sand compare to vinegar treatment. Some people have posted before that some acid stays on the metal and react with the paint. If there is no acid that stays on the metal like you said than from where can come the bad reaction with the paint? Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: morgan33t_ior@... > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:54:20 -0700 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar > > > Milkstone acid rinse is typically phosphoric acid mixed with some detergents for dissolving calcium and magnesium deposits. So save some money and just get phoshoric acid. > > Vinegar is a weak organic acid and really isn't good for rust removal whereas phosphoric acid is a mineral acid. If you use 85% phosphoric acid you get a moderate rust inhibition benefit through the formation of iron phosphate crystals on the surface of your steel. These will be black. Make sure you degrease your steel before you hit with phosphoric acid or any acid for that matter. Heavy rust will require several acid treatments at ambient temperatures. This pretty much holds true for even sulphuric acid, which is used for pickling and rust removal. 150F or more in temperature is usually required to get a good benefit from acid treatment. > > Acid staying on steel or in micropores of steel after a rinsing with water is a myth. Rust is reappearing because fresh iron has been exposed, that is, the steel has been etched exposing fresh iron to be oxidized. If left wet then you have a nice oxygen rich electrochemical cell. If left exposed to the atmosphere, humidity and oxygen oxidize the iron to iron(II) or rust. This is why it is important to clean, acid treat, rinse, dry, prime in as short a time frame as possible. Same with grinding, wirewheeling or sandblasting, especially to white. > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 2:48 PM > > there was a post last winter about removing rust with milkstone acid rinse and it was said that it was no really good because there was always some acid staying on the metal surface and rust was reapearing. > > what about vinegar? does someone knows the difference between the two? is vinegar easier to wash after rust is remove? > > Martin. > ____________ _________ _________ __ >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> From: maurogonzaga1940@ yahoo.com >> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:41:48 -0700 >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside >> >> >> You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two coats of epoxy paint. >> Mauro >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: >> >> From: martin demers >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM >> >> isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? >> >> Martin. >> >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> From: tazmannm@gmail. com >> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 >> Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside >> >> Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is >> >> sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem >> >> with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after >> >> running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks >> >> of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see >> >> nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white >> >> blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good >> >> thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set >> >> of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL >> >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ >> Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! >> http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticonesgratuites.ca/?icid=EMFRCA120| 17797|11996|2008-07-11 16:23:11|James|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|Cut your plates , preferably plasma cut , then blast and prime with zinc -rich . james On 7/11/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > We have our steel plate, pipe, and angle coming in the next couple of > weeks, but we don't plan to do start building until next Spring.? So what > should we do for the steel in the interim.? Nothing or oil and cover it or > something else? > > That last tread about the challenges of blasting inside the hull is still > in mind. So we are also debating blasting to white and priming it before we > start. We can easily move the plates around since we have a gantry.? Is > there too much waste in this approach?? I can rent the 185cfm compressor and > 300 lb pot for $650 a week.? I am thinking I can blast and prime everything > and then do the follow-up work with small equipment as we go. > > Thanks for you help. > Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > ? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17798|11996|2008-07-11 17:56:10|J Fisher|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|Since I cant get pre primed plate, my plan was to assemble each hull half, then blast and prime the inside before joining the halves. Thus avoiding blasting once assembled. Have not tried it yet, but don't see why it wouldn t work since preprimed plate works. John -------Original Message------- From: djackson99@... Date: 7/11/2008 10:42:54 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] I need suggestions for storing steel for a year. We have our steel plate, pipe, and angle coming in the next couple of weeks, but we don't plan to do start building until next Spring.? So what should we do for the steel in the interim.? Nothing or oil and cover it or something else? That last tread about the challenges of blasting inside the hull is still in mind. So we are also debating blasting to white and priming it before we start. We can easily move the plates around since we have a gantry.? Is there too much waste in this approach?? I can rent the 185cfm compressor and 300 lb pot for $650 a week.? I am thinking I can blast and prime everything and then do the follow-up work with small equipment as we go. Thanks for you help. Doug J www.submarineboat.com ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17799|11996|2008-07-11 18:11:03|polaris041|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|It seems strange to me the number of people who claim they can't get primed plate. Of course I am not sugesting you just walk in and buy it from the local Walmart, but surely in any area there is a corrossion control business that can treat your material on its way from the suppier to you. This just has to be available as metal fabrication is a world wide activity and no doubt all those fabriators need to comply with industrial standards. Locally I can get plate blasted and primed for $11 per square metre; that has to be cheaper and a lot less hassel than doing it yourself. regards pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > Since I cant get pre primed plate, | 17800|11996|2008-07-11 18:33:40|Tom Mann|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|My sugestion would be to cut the half patterns then blast and paint inside before stringers are installed, blast and paint stringers allso then weld them in. A lot of your zinc primers are weld through but I would still grind in off just where your gona weld. Main reason I would say do it this way is you have some paint under the edge of stringer where atached to hull and allso good paint under the lip of angle iron stringer. I now have the job of hand sanding under the lip, dang near imposable to blast under there and if you blast at the right angle the bounce of the sand might clean ok if you stay there long enough, problem with that is how much hull skin do you sacrafice till its clean enough. Doug If your steel is just hot roll "ie mill scale" I would just stack it up and wait, little rusting will help get the mill scale off. Oil it and you have the job of trying to get the oil back off latter. Tom On 7/11/08, J Fisher wrote: > > Since I cant get pre primed plate, my plan was to assemble each hull half, > then blast and prime the inside before joining the halves. Thus avoiding > blasting once assembled. Have not tried it yet, but don't see why it > wouldn > t work since preprimed plate works. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: djackson99@... > Date: 7/11/2008 10:42:54 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] I need suggestions for storing steel for a year. > > We have our steel plate, pipe, and angle coming in the next couple of > weeks, > but we don't plan to do start building until next Spring.? So what should > we > do for the steel in the interim.? Nothing or oil and cover it or something > else? > > That last tread about the challenges of blasting inside the hull is still > in > mind. So we are also debating blasting to white and priming it before we > start. We can easily move the plates around since we have a gantry.? Is > there too much waste in this approach?? I can rent the 185cfm compressor > and > 300 lb pot for $650 a week.? I am thinking I can blast and prime everything > and then do the follow-up work with small equipment as we go. > > Thanks for you help. > Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > ? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17801|11996|2008-07-11 19:09:58|djackson99@aol.com|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|I can get it done locally, but not from Cargill where I can get the best price.? None of the local suppliers have the facilities in house as I suspect they do along the coast.? The local plant only rolls it off the coil and cuts it. I can get it blasted and primed by a steel oil tank outfit but doing it myself looks like fun, not a hassel.? Thanks for $11/sq meter, I'll compare that to the local Joes.? But the total at your rate will come to 5000 to 6000 and 1500 will rent the equipment for a week, pay for fuel,? and buy a truck load of sand. What's the best primer we can use and what is the going price? Thanks Doug J -----Original Message----- From: polaris041 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 5:11 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year. It seems strange to me the number of people who claim they can't get primed plate. Of course I am not sugesting you just walk in and buy it from the local Walmart, but surely in any area there is a corrossion control business that can treat your material on its way from the suppier to you. This just has to be available as metal fabrication is a world wide activity and no doubt all those fabriators need to comply with industrial standards. Locally I can get plate blasted and primed for $11 per square metre; that has to be cheaper and a lot less hassel than doing it yourself. regards pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > Since I cant get pre primed plate, [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17802|11996|2008-07-11 19:51:40|djackson99@aol.com|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|Tom James and John (not the apostles) suggestions are along the same track. I'm glad you addressed the stringers. I was wondering how well I could blast those once they were in place. Hot rolled mill scale is what we are getting on the plate so we'll let it sit.?? Thank to each of you. Many more questions to follow. Doug -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 5:33 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] I need suggestions for storing steel for a year. My sugestion would be to cut the half patterns then blast and paint inside before stringers are installed, blast and paint stringers allso then weld them in. A lot of your zinc primers are weld through but I would still grind in off just where your gona weld. Main reason I would say do it this way is you have some paint under the edge of stringer where atached to hull and allso good paint under the lip of angle iron stringer. I now have the job of hand sanding under the lip, dang near imposable to blast under there and if you blast at the right angle the bounce of the sand might clean ok if you stay there long enough, problem with that is how much hull skin do you sacrafice till its clean enough. Doug If your steel is just hot roll "ie mill scale" I would just stack it up and wait, little rusting will help get the mill scale off. Oil it and you have the job of trying to get the oil back off latter. Tom On 7/11/08, J Fisher wrote: > > Since I cant get pre primed plate, my plan was to assemble each hull half, > then blast and prime the inside before joining the halves. Thus avoiding > blasting once assembled. Have not tried it yet, but don't see why it > wouldn > t work since preprimed plate works. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: djackson99@... > Date: 7/11/2008 10:42:54 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] I need suggestions for storing steel for a year. > > We have our steel plate, pipe, and angle coming in the next couple of > weeks, > but we don't plan to do start building until next Spring.? So what should > we > do for the steel in the interim.? Nothing or oil and cover it or something > else? > > That last tread about the challenges of blasting inside the hull is still > in > mind. So we are also debating blasting to white and priming it before we > start. We can easily move the plates around since we have a gantry.? Is > there too much waste in this approach?? I can rent the 185cfm compressor > and > 300 lb pot for $650 a week.? I am thinking I can blast and prime everything > and then do the follow-up work with small equipment as we go. > > Thanks for you help. > Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > ? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17803|11996|2008-07-11 22:19:06|Tom Mann|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|When I blasted the outside of my 26 I went to clean white and was using about 100# sack of sand for roughly 12 square feet and close to a gallon of gas with a small rig, zinc rich primer was $120 a gallon. A bigger rig does run a little more efieciant as far as fuel. Mill scale is tuff and what I found was on a hot day it came off easier than when cold. Tom On 7/11/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > I can get it done locally, but not from Cargill where I can get the best > price.? None of the local suppliers have the facilities in house as I > suspect they do along the coast.? The local plant only rolls it off the coil > and cuts it. > > I can get it blasted and primed by a steel oil tank outfit but doing it > myself looks like fun, not a hassel.? > > Thanks for $11/sq meter, I'll compare that to the local Joes.? But the > total at your rate will come to 5000 to 6000 and 1500 will rent the > equipment for a week, pay for fuel,? and buy a truck load of sand. > > What's the best primer we can use and what is the going price? > > Thanks > Doug J > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: polaris041 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 5:11 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a > year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems strange to me the number of people who claim they can't get > > primed plate. > > Of course I am not sugesting you just walk in and buy it from the > > local Walmart, but surely in any area there is a corrossion control > > business that can treat your material on its way from the suppier to > > you. > > This just has to be available as metal fabrication is a world wide > > activity and no doubt all those fabriators need to comply with > > industrial standards. > > > > Locally I can get plate blasted and primed for $11 per square metre; > > that has to be cheaper and a lot less hassel than doing it yourself. > > > > regards pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > > > > > Since I cant get pre primed plate, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17804|11996|2008-07-12 00:42:53|djackson99@aol.com|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|Tom How many 100# bags did you use?? I'm guessing you recycled everything you could collect right?? And what kind of sand did you use?? Did you try river sand? Sorry; Nothing but more questions... Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year. When I blasted the outside of my 26 I went to clean white and was using about 100# sack of sand for roughly 12 square feet and close to a gallon of gas with a small rig, zinc rich primer was $120 a gallon. A bigger rig does run a little more efieciant as far as fuel. Mill scale is tuff and what I found was on a hot day it came off easier than when cold. Tom ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17805|17805|2008-07-12 05:45:50|hanningtonmary|Free Samples (11th July)|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://moourl.com/freebies1107 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17806|17806|2008-07-12 08:31:29|bendeac2000|no budget sound insulation|Hi, can anyone suggest a scrounged method of sound insulating an engine. I have a stack of ply which I was going to make an air-tight box with a port for the air intake. Then I was going to line it with either heavy wool carpet or some closed cell foam I have lying around. I'd appreciate any improvements on the design. Cheers, ben| 17807|11996|2008-07-12 09:37:40|Tom Mann|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|Doug I used over a pallet on the outside 30+ bags. #30 sand for a good profile. I tryed reusing it but had nothing but problems. The sand gets pretty much pulverised and you wont get near as good of profile on the surface second time around. If your using a lot bigger setup than I am you might be able to run it through a second time with no problems. I found that finer sand does clean to white a lot faster mabee that would be an option, used sand to clean and new to profile it, now weather or not that would save time or sand is a ? Tom On 7/11/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Tom > > How many 100# bags did you use?? I'm guessing you recycled everything you > could collect right?? And what kind of sand did you use?? Did you try river > sand? > > Sorry; Nothing but more questions... > Doug J > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 9:19 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a > year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I blasted the outside of my 26 I went to clean white and was using > > about 100# sack of sand for roughly 12 square feet and close to a gallon of > > gas with a small rig, zinc rich primer was $120 a gallon. A bigger rig does > > run a little more efieciant as far as fuel. Mill scale is tuff and what I > > found was on a hot day it came off easier than when cold. > > Tom > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17808|17806|2008-07-12 11:12:27|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: no budget sound insulation|We have had advice on sound insulation for the Yanmar diesel in our 37 foot steel sailboat. A coast guard oficer and marine engineer, on examining the engine compartment suggested plywood, thick laminated layers of plywood covered in either galvinsed sheet metal or thin stainless steel with all holes plugged. This deadens sound to a surprising degree and unlike the flamable black polyurethane foam insulation which I believe gives off cyanide, is almost fireproof. ----- Original Message ----- From: bendeac2000 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 5:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] no budget sound insulation Hi, can anyone suggest a scrounged method of sound insulating an engine. I have a stack of ply which I was going to make an air-tight box with a port for the air intake. Then I was going to line it with either heavy wool carpet or some closed cell foam I have lying around. I'd appreciate any improvements on the design. Cheers, ben No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1546 - Release Date: 7/11/2008 6:47 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17809|11996|2008-07-12 18:09:40|theboilerflue|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|It might be usefull to wrap the plate in oil-dampened bedsheets or someother material. It works to prevent tools from rusting and doesn't get oil on the metal. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > We have our steel plate, pipe, and angle coming in the next couple of weeks, but we don't plan to do start building until next Spring.? So what should we do for the steel in the interim.? Nothing or oil and cover it or something else? > > That last tread about the challenges of blasting inside the hull is still in mind. So we are also debating blasting to white and priming it before we start. We can easily move the plates around since we have a gantry.? Is there too much waste in this approach?? I can rent the 185cfm compressor and 300 lb pot for $650 a week.? I am thinking I can blast and prime everything and then do the follow-up work with small equipment as we go. > > Thanks for you help. > Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > ? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17810|11996|2008-07-13 17:54:13|Carl Volkwein|Re: Sandblasting inside|what is a "proper primer" for brushed steel, any suggestions? carlvolkwein@... ----- Original Message ---- From: mauro gonzaga To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 1:41:48 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two coats of epoxy paint. Mauro --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? Martin. To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com From: tazmannm@gmail. com Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17811|17811|2008-07-14 05:31:35|karenlillington|New Freebies 14th July|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://fastfreebies.blogspot.com When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17812|17812|2008-07-14 16:07:50|cokedrum|SS for foredeck?|Hello All Ive noticed that some like to put a oversized pad around the front mooring bit. I suppose too help with the chain chipping away at the paint form the anchor winch. Could one use a SS plate for the foredeck and anchor well, cockpit and so forth. I know its super pricey to do so but if one could scrounge suitable pieces, at a suitable price. I guess my question really is will ss on the topside of the boat cause electrolysis's or some other problem? Thanks Jesse| 17813|17812|2008-07-14 18:57:53|Paul Liebenberg|Lead wanted Vancouver Island|Hi, If anyone has lead for sale please contact me. 250 336 2271 Paul Liebenberg| 17814|17814|2008-07-15 00:55:07|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Urgently Required For Project scheduler & Field Cost Estimator|Dear All We are from MBP Skill Indonesia, a leading reputable Human Resources Consultancy. Our client in Gold Mining Company looks for suitable candidates to fill the post of: Project Scheduler (2-211-68) Requirements: • Male/Female, 30 years old • Bachelor degree (S1) in Engineering • Has at least 2nd - 3rd years working experience similar experienced record in Engineering Project • Familiar with Primavera Enterprise, MS Project, Power point, MS Word, MS Excel, etc • Technical, detail oriented problem solver • Willing to work and relocate in remote location for long term • Good Command in English Field Cost Estimator (2-211-50) Requirements: • Willing to be located and working in jobsite at Tembagapura, Papua. • Contract based for 6 months (contract will be reviewed per 6 months based on the performance and needs) • Education background is Undergraduate (S1) as a Mechanical Engineer or Civil Engineer from reputable university. • Have working experience for 2-5 years in estimating project budget from start until completion of the project (man-hours, material and equipment). • Have knowledge and can operate computer software: WinEst (cost estimate), AutoCAD, Primavera and Ms. Office. An attractive remuneration will be offered to the qualified candidate. If you are interested and qualified for these positions, please e-mail your resume/CV on MS World File, your resent photograph, and current job description to resumes@... or PO BOX. 4270 JKTM 1400 or Visit our web: www.mbp-skill.com Do not forget to mention the position number on your application letter.| 17815|17812|2008-07-15 14:48:16|brentswain38|Re: SS for foredeck?|On deck it shouldn't be a problem. Underwater it would be a disaster. Where it meets mild steel I'd throw in a few extra pieces of mild steel across the seam in case there is a weld problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cokedrum" wrote: > > Hello All > > Ive noticed that some like to put a oversized pad around the front > mooring bit. I suppose too help with the chain chipping away at the > paint form the anchor winch. > > Could one use a SS plate for the foredeck and anchor well, cockpit > and so forth. I know its super pricey to do so but if one could > scrounge suitable pieces, at a suitable price. > > I guess my question really is will ss on the topside of the boat cause > electrolysis's or some other problem? > > Thanks > > Jesse > | 17816|11996|2008-07-15 14:52:21|brentswain38|Re: milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar|I've never seen success with acid wash in the long term, no matter how well it is washed and dried before painting. Vinegar works well for cleaning zinc primer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Milkstone acid rinse is typically phosphoric acid mixed with some detergents for dissolving calcium and magnesium deposits. So save some money and just get phoshoric acid. > > Vinegar is a weak organic acid and really isn't good for rust removal whereas phosphoric acid is a mineral acid. If you use 85% phosphoric acid you get a moderate rust inhibition benefit through the formation of iron phosphate crystals on the surface of your steel. These will be black. Make sure you degrease your steel before you hit with phosphoric acid or any acid for that matter. Heavy rust will require several acid treatments at ambient temperatures. This pretty much holds true for even sulphuric acid, which is used for pickling and rust removal. 150F or more in temperature is usually required to get a good benefit from acid treatment. > > Acid staying on steel or in micropores of steel after a rinsing with water is a myth. Rust is reappearing because fresh iron has been exposed, that is, the steel has been etched exposing fresh iron to be oxidized. If left wet then you have a nice oxygen rich electrochemical cell. If left exposed to the atmosphere, humidity and oxygen oxidize the iron to iron(II) or rust. This is why it is important to clean, acid treat, rinse, dry, prime in as short a time frame as possible. Same with grinding, wirewheeling or sandblasting, especially to white. > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 2:48 PM > > > > > > > > there was a post last winter about removing rust with milkstone acid rinse and it was said that it was no really good because there was always some acid staying on the metal surface and rust was reapearing. > > what about vinegar? does someone knows the difference between the two? is vinegar easier to wash after rust is remove? > > Martin. > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > From: maurogonzaga1940@ yahoo.com > > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:41:48 -0700 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > > > > > You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two coats of epoxy paint. > > Mauro > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM > > > > isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? > > > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > From: tazmannm@gmail. com > > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > > > Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is > > > > sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem > > > > with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after > > > > running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks > > > > of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see > > > > nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white > > > > blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good > > > > thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set > > > > of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL > > > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17817|11996|2008-07-15 14:54:04|brentswain38|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|Blasting and priming before fabrication is probably your best bet. There is very little wastage on my designs. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > We have our steel plate, pipe, and angle coming in the next couple of weeks, but we don't plan to do start building until next Spring.? So what should we do for the steel in the interim.? Nothing or oil and cover it or something else? > > That last tread about the challenges of blasting inside the hull is still in mind. So we are also debating blasting to white and priming it before we start. We can easily move the plates around since we have a gantry.? Is there too much waste in this approach?? I can rent the 185cfm compressor and 300 lb pot for $650 a week.? I am thinking I can blast and prime everything and then do the follow-up work with small equipment as we go. > > Thanks for you help. > Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > ? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17818|17806|2008-07-15 15:05:07|brentswain38|Re: no budget sound insulation|Carpet is very effective, more effective than the foam in lead coated foam. Only the lead does any good, the foam does nothing. You can cover it with truck inner tube, or simply change it when it gets dirty. After all , it's free. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bendeac2000" wrote: > > Hi, can anyone suggest a scrounged method of sound insulating an engine. I have a stack of > ply which I was going to make an air-tight box with a port for the air intake. Then I was > going to line it with either heavy wool carpet or some closed cell foam I have lying around. > I'd appreciate any improvements on the design. > > Cheers, > > ben > | 17819|11996|2008-07-15 15:07:41|brentswain38|Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a year.|Fresh water beach sand gives you as good a surface as wheelabrader. Make sure it's screened thru a window screen, and bone dry. It's dusty as hell, but that should be no problem if you are blasting outside. It can be found free. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Doug > I used over a pallet on the outside 30+ bags. #30 sand for a good profile. > I tryed reusing it but had nothing but problems. The sand gets pretty much > pulverised and you wont get near as good of profile on the surface second > time around. If your using a lot bigger setup than I am you might be able to > run it through a second time with no problems. I found that finer sand does > clean to white a lot faster mabee that would be an option, used sand to > clean and new to profile it, now weather or not that would save time or sand > is a ? > Tom > > > On 7/11/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > > > Tom > > > > How many 100# bags did you use?? I'm guessing you recycled everything you > > could collect right?? And what kind of sand did you use?? Did you try river > > sand? > > > > Sorry; Nothing but more questions... > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 9:19 pm > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I need suggestions for storing steel for a > > year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I blasted the outside of my 26 I went to clean white and was using > > > > about 100# sack of sand for roughly 12 square feet and close to a gallon of > > > > gas with a small rig, zinc rich primer was $120 a gallon. A bigger rig does > > > > run a little more efieciant as far as fuel. Mill scale is tuff and what I > > > > found was on a hot day it came off easier than when cold. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17820|11996|2008-07-15 15:10:26|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting inside|Any inorganic zinc primer that leaves 85% or better zinc dry film behind( Zinga , Carboweld, Interzinc, etc.). The green devoe primer also works well. Interzinc is heavy on the fumes when welding. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > what is a "proper primer" for brushed steel, any suggestions? > carlvolkwein@... > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: mauro gonzaga > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 1:41:48 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > > You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two coats of epoxy paint. > Mauro > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM > > isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: tazmannm@gmail. com > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 > Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is > > sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem > > with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after > > running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks > > of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see > > nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white > > blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good > > thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set > > of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL > > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17821|11996|2008-07-15 16:23:38|will jones|Re: milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar|Strong mineral acids like sulphuric, nitric, muriatic (hydrochloric), and hydroflouric are going to completely disassociate in water and rinse cleanly away, given an adequate amount of water.  A weak mineral acid like phosphoric will work the same.  I would be more concerned with vinegar residues since it is a weak organic acid and the organic portion can get caught up with grease and oil.   I've seen the acid reaction with paint in quite a number of threads.  If people are seeing a reaction they suspect is from acid, then the acid wasn't rinsed off.  And you have to clean the grease and oil off before you clean with acid, unless of course you are using sulfuric around 200F.  Still you want to degrease for process efficiency and quick pickling.  If folks are having a paint adherence problem it is usually going to come down to insufficient care in cleaning off oil and/or grease or some other contaminant.  It really is not adequate to just use a rag with solvent on it to degrease.  One has to wipe with a solvent then follow up with a clean rag to absorb the dissolved grease.  After wire wheeling (coarse cup) I wipe down steel with mineral spirits or naphtha with a couple of cups of MEK added per gallon.  I go through several bags of old rags.   Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Fri, 7/11/08, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 2:03 PM Hi Morgan, I dipped some rusted steel pieces in some vinegar and it did removed the rust but needed some minor brushing to removed it, then I rinsed with some water and a very light cloud of rust appeared shortly after. I presume it would be OK to paint on top of it. I didn't try that experience on heavy rust though. I also noticed that steel does not rust as fast after sandblast with sand compare to vinegar treatment. Some people have posted before that some acid stays on the metal and react with the paint. If there is no acid that stays on the metal like you said than from where can come the bad reaction with the paint? Martin ____________ _________ _________ __ > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: morgan33t_ior@ yahoo.com > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:54:20 -0700 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar > > > Milkstone acid rinse is typically phosphoric acid mixed with some detergents for dissolving calcium and magnesium deposits. So save some money and just get phoshoric acid. > > Vinegar is a weak organic acid and really isn't good for rust removal whereas phosphoric acid is a mineral acid. If you use 85% phosphoric acid you get a moderate rust inhibition benefit through the formation of iron phosphate crystals on the surface of your steel. These will be black. Make sure you degrease your steel before you hit with phosphoric acid or any acid for that matter. Heavy rust will require several acid treatments at ambient temperatures. This pretty much holds true for even sulphuric acid, which is used for pickling and rust removal. 150F or more in temperature is usually required to get a good benefit from acid treatment. > > Acid staying on steel or in micropores of steel after a rinsing with water is a myth. Rust is reappearing because fresh iron has been exposed, that is, the steel has been etched exposing fresh iron to be oxidized. If left wet then you have a nice oxygen rich electrochemical cell. If left exposed to the atmosphere, humidity and oxygen oxidize the iron to iron(II) or rust. This is why it is important to clean, acid treat, rinse, dry, prime in as short a time frame as possible. Same with grinding, wirewheeling or sandblasting, especially to white. > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 2:48 PM > > there was a post last winter about removing rust with milkstone acid rinse and it was said that it was no really good because there was always some acid staying on the metal surface and rust was reapearing. > > what about vinegar? does someone knows the difference between the two? is vinegar easier to wash after rust is remove? > > Martin. > ____________ _________ _________ __ >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> From: maurogonzaga1940@ yahoo.com >> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:41:48 -0700 >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside >> >> >> You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two coats of epoxy paint. >> Mauro >> >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: >> >> From: martin demers >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM >> >> isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? >> >> Martin. >> >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> From: tazmannm@gmail. com >> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 >> Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside >> >> Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is >> >> sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem >> >> with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after >> >> running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks >> >> of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see >> >> nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white >> >> blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good >> >> thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set >> >> of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL >> >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ >> Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! >> http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17822|11996|2008-07-15 16:32:17|will jones|Re: milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar|At ambient temps, I wouldn't use an acid wash because it is not going to be more effective at descaling or removal of moderate to heavy rust.   You might get some metal sulfate or carbonate precipitates forming, depending on water hardness and sulfate content.  But you would see this or it would come off on your fingers.  Acid prep for steel really needs to be around 200F.   I think folks thing the acid is going to eat up the organics (oil or grease) and they aren't.   An easy test would be to get some litmus paper or one the fish tank pH test kits.  Acid clean and rinse, then squirt some water on the area and soak it up with the test paper and see what the pH is. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Tue, 7/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 2:52 PM I've never seen success with acid wash in the long term, no matter how well it is washed and dried before painting. Vinegar works well for cleaning zinc primer. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, will jones wrote: > > Milkstone acid rinse is typically phosphoric acid mixed with some detergents for dissolving calcium and magnesium deposits. So save some money and just get phoshoric acid. > > Vinegar is a weak organic acid and really isn't good for rust removal whereas phosphoric acid is a mineral acid. If you use 85% phosphoric acid you get a moderate rust inhibition benefit through the formation of iron phosphate crystals on the surface of your steel. These will be black. Make sure you degrease your steel before you hit with phosphoric acid or any acid for that matter. Heavy rust will require several acid treatments at ambient temperatures. This pretty much holds true for even sulphuric acid, which is used for pickling and rust removal. 150F or more in temperature is usually required to get a good benefit from acid treatment. > > Acid staying on steel or in micropores of steel after a rinsing with water is a myth. Rust is reappearing because fresh iron has been exposed, that is, the steel has been etched exposing fresh iron to be oxidized. If left wet then you have a nice oxygen rich electrochemical cell. If left exposed to the atmosphere, humidity and oxygen oxidize the iron to iron(II) or rust. This is why it is important to clean, acid treat, rinse, dry, prime in as short a time frame as possible. Same with grinding, wirewheeling or sandblasting, especially to white. > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 2:48 PM > > > > > > > > there was a post last winter about removing rust with milkstone acid rinse and it was said that it was no really good because there was always some acid staying on the metal surface and rust was reapearing. > > what about vinegar? does someone knows the difference between the two? is vinegar easier to wash after rust is remove? > > Martin. > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > From: maurogonzaga1940@ yahoo.com > > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:41:48 -0700 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > > > > > You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two coats of epoxy paint. > > Mauro > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM > > > > isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? > > > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > From: tazmannm@gmail. com > > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > > > Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is > > > > sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem > > > > with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after > > > > running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks > > > > of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see > > > > nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white > > > > blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good > > > > thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set > > > > of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL > > > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17823|11996|2008-07-15 20:01:28|Gary H. Lucas|Re: milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar|We build oily waste treatment systems using ultrafilters. Raising the pH above 9 causes the oil to emulsify and wash off. To clean oil off you want to use caustic, sodium hydroxide (lye). Galvanizers dip the steel in hot caustic solutions first, then a clear rinse, then hot acid. Steel has oil on it from the rolling process. Cleaning off the oil allows the acid to get to the scale. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "will jones" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar At ambient temps, I wouldn't use an acid wash because it is not going to be more effective at descaling or removal of moderate to heavy rust. You might get some metal sulfate or carbonate precipitates forming, depending on water hardness and sulfate content. But you would see this or it would come off on your fingers. Acid prep for steel really needs to be around 200F. I think folks thing the acid is going to eat up the organics (oil or grease) and they aren't. An easy test would be to get some litmus paper or one the fish tank pH test kits. Acid clean and rinse, then squirt some water on the area and soak it up with the test paper and see what the pH is. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Tue, 7/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 2:52 PM I've never seen success with acid wash in the long term, no matter how well it is washed and dried before painting. Vinegar works well for cleaning zinc primer. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, will jones wrote: > > Milkstone acid rinse is typically phosphoric acid mixed with some detergents for dissolving calcium and magnesium deposits. So save some money and just get phoshoric acid. > > Vinegar is a weak organic acid and really isn't good for rust removal whereas phosphoric acid is a mineral acid. If you use 85% phosphoric acid you get a moderate rust inhibition benefit through the formation of iron phosphate crystals on the surface of your steel. These will be black. Make sure you degrease your steel before you hit with phosphoric acid or any acid for that matter. Heavy rust will require several acid treatments at ambient temperatures. This pretty much holds true for even sulphuric acid, which is used for pickling and rust removal. 150F or more in temperature is usually required to get a good benefit from acid treatment. > > Acid staying on steel or in micropores of steel after a rinsing with water is a myth. Rust is reappearing because fresh iron has been exposed, that is, the steel has been etched exposing fresh iron to be oxidized. If left wet then you have a nice oxygen rich electrochemical cell. If left exposed to the atmosphere, humidity and oxygen oxidize the iron to iron(II) or rust. This is why it is important to clean, acid treat, rinse, dry, prime in as short a time frame as possible. Same with grinding, wirewheeling or sandblasting, especially to white. > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 2:48 PM > > > > > > > > there was a post last winter about removing rust with milkstone acid rinse and it was said that it was no really good because there was always some acid staying on the metal surface and rust was reapearing. > > what about vinegar? does someone knows the difference between the two? is vinegar easier to wash after rust is remove? > > Martin. > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > From: maurogonzaga1940@ yahoo.com > > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:41:48 -0700 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > > > > > You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two coats of epoxy paint. > > Mauro > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM > > > > isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? > > > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > From: tazmannm@gmail. com > > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > > > > Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is > > > > sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem > > > > with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after > > > > running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks > > > > of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see > > > > nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white > > > > blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good > > > > thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set > > > > of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL > > > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17824|17824|2008-07-18 02:19:39|wendyparkington|New Freebies Today! (17th July)|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the latest freebie (17th July) page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/?page=4 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17825|17824|2008-07-18 02:19:42|wendyparkington|New Freebies Today! (17th July)|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the latest freebie (17th July) page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/?page=4 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17826|17824|2008-07-18 07:38:52|TDPOPP@aol.com|New Freebies Today! (17th July)|Alex, you want to bounce this sender off the group. Just a Spammer. **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17827|11996|2008-07-18 19:05:17|brentswain38|Re: milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar|I remember using epiglass etch primer. The directions said let it dry overnight. When I did it was solid rust by the next day. So I recoated it before it had time to rust. The epoxy fell off in sheets. So I groundv it clean and epoxied it without the etch primer. That worked well. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Strong mineral acids like sulphuric, nitric, muriatic (hydrochloric), and hydroflouric are going to completely disassociate in water and rinse cleanly away, given an adequate amount of water. A weak mineral acid like phosphoric will work the same. I would be more concerned with vinegar residues since it is a weak organic acid and the organic portion can get caught up with grease and oil. > > I've seen the acid reaction with paint in quite a number of threads. If people are seeing a reaction they suspect is from acid, then the acid wasn't rinsed off. And you have to clean the grease and oil off before you clean with acid, unless of course you are using sulfuric around 200F. Still you want to degrease for process efficiency and quick pickling. If folks are having a paint adherence problem it is usually going to come down to insufficient care in cleaning off oil and/or grease or some other contaminant. It really is not adequate to just use a rag with solvent on it to degrease. One has to wipe with a solvent then follow up with a clean rag to absorb the dissolved grease. After wire wheeling (coarse cup) I wipe down steel with mineral spirits or naphtha with a couple of cups of MEK added per gallon. I go through several bags of old rags. > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Fri, 7/11/08, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 2:03 PM > > > > > > > > Hi Morgan, > > I dipped some rusted steel pieces in some vinegar and it did removed the rust but needed some minor brushing to removed it, then I rinsed with some water and a very light cloud of rust appeared shortly after. I presume it would be OK to paint on top of it. I didn't try that experience on heavy rust though. > > I also noticed that steel does not rust as fast after sandblast with sand compare to vinegar treatment. > > Some people have posted before that some acid stays on the metal and react with the paint. If there is no acid that stays on the metal like you said than from where can come the bad reaction with the paint? > > Martin > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > From: morgan33t_ior@ yahoo.com > > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:54:20 -0700 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar > > > > > > Milkstone acid rinse is typically phosphoric acid mixed with some detergents for dissolving calcium and magnesium deposits. So save some money and just get phoshoric acid. > > > > Vinegar is a weak organic acid and really isn't good for rust removal whereas phosphoric acid is a mineral acid. If you use 85% phosphoric acid you get a moderate rust inhibition benefit through the formation of iron phosphate crystals on the surface of your steel. These will be black. Make sure you degrease your steel before you hit with phosphoric acid or any acid for that matter. Heavy rust will require several acid treatments at ambient temperatures. This pretty much holds true for even sulphuric acid, which is used for pickling and rust removal. 150F or more in temperature is usually required to get a good benefit from acid treatment. > > > > Acid staying on steel or in micropores of steel after a rinsing with water is a myth. Rust is reappearing because fresh iron has been exposed, that is, the steel has been etched exposing fresh iron to be oxidized. If left wet then you have a nice oxygen rich electrochemical cell. If left exposed to the atmosphere, humidity and oxygen oxidize the iron to iron(II) or rust. This is why it is important to clean, acid treat, rinse, dry, prime in as short a time frame as possible. Same with grinding, wirewheeling or sandblasting, especially to white. > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] milkstone acid rinse VS vinegar > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 2:48 PM > > > > there was a post last winter about removing rust with milkstone acid rinse and it was said that it was no really good because there was always some acid staying on the metal surface and rust was reapearing. > > > > what about vinegar? does someone knows the difference between the two? is vinegar easier to wash after rust is remove? > > > > Martin. > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> From: maurogonzaga1940@ yahoo.com > >> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:41:48 -0700 > >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > >> > >> > >> You can prepare the steel inside the boat by brushing. Use a rotating power steel brush where you can and manual where the machine can't fit. Then use proper primer, for brushed steel. Paint over the primer with one, better two coats of epoxy paint. > >> Mauro > >> > >> --- On Sun, 7/6/08, martin demers wrote: > >> > >> From: martin demers > >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:52 AM > >> > >> isn't there some high pressure water machine that can remove rust (30,000 pounds pressure)? > >> > >> Martin. > >> > >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> From: tazmannm@gmail. com > >> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:07 -0700 > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblasting inside > >> > >> Well I made a pretty good dent to what has to be done but all I can say is > >> > >> sandblasting inside sucks nomatter how you do it, figured out my problem > >> > >> with the clean blast but I only had a few hundred pounds of it and after > >> > >> running it through the third time was powder. Had the wife pick up 4 sacks > >> > >> of 30# sand and went after it with that, after about 5 minutes you cant see > >> > >> nothin in the fog with glazed over face shield. I give up on the white > >> > >> blast, good profile with lot of dark spots is good enough for me. One good > >> > >> thing my wife started helping me finaly and it sure is handy with extra set > >> > >> of hands somtimes, must have been the paint job that motivated her LOL > >> > >> Tom > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > >> Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > >> http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! Employez-le maintenant! > http://www.emoticon esgratuites. ca/?icid= EMFRCA120 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17828|17828|2008-07-18 19:26:49|brentswain38|Wind generato but it's worth checking out.rs|I just found a good source of wind generators. WSE technology in Sakatoon. Good prices too , down to $365, and Canmadians o no import duties for us Canadians .Just do a search under wse technology or phone them at 1-306-244-8808. I doknow anything more,| 17829|17828|2008-07-18 19:29:18|brentswain38|Re: Wind generato but it's worth checking out.rs|Boy, that one got sent before I could read it or correct the spelling. Just went by accident. At any rate its a source of wind generators worth checking out. Wish we could edit our messages on this site. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just found a good source of wind generators. WSE technology in > Sakatoon. Good prices too , down to $365, and Canmadians o no import > duties for us Canadians .Just do a search under wse technology or > phone them at 1-306-244-8808. I doknow anything more, > | 17830|11996|2008-07-18 20:58:39|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sandblasting inside|We had our BS 36 sandblasted and then painted it with Zinga when it was still in its component stage. The boat is fully assembled now and we have just had the bits that I forgot to sand blast before, the water tanks the inside of the diesel tanks and the welds etc blasted and we are in the process of applying Zinga. We took yesterday off to see Leonard Cohen in concert, excellent. Anyway the blaster had a vacuum cleaner based on a 40 gallon drum with three fans sucking the sand through a 2" hose. We had to clean out the inside twice so that we could see what had been missed. A powerful vacuum is much easier then shovelling out. There was sand everywhere including over and in adjacent tools, components and benches. The experience is that it would have been better to have everything blasted and treated out in the field before assembly and then perhaps to clean and treat the welds as they are done. We were blasting for 10 hours and there are still a few places missed. We still have a small trailer load of bits to blast, the exhaust pipe flanges, tank tops, coolant pipes, an anchor and some angles for the cockpit support. Regards, Ted| 17831|11996|2008-07-18 21:26:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: Sandblasting inside|On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 12:58:38AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > We took yesterday off to see > Leonard Cohen in concert, excellent. Didn't he commit suicide - successfully - a number of years ago? Unless this is an alternate universe (or an alternate Leonard Cohen), I'm confused. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17832|11996|2008-07-18 21:31:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Sandblasting inside|On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 09:25:20PM -0400, Benjamin Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 12:58:38AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > We took yesterday off to see > > Leonard Cohen in concert, excellent. > > Didn't he commit suicide - successfully - a number of years ago? Unless > this is an alternate universe (or an alternate Leonard Cohen), I'm > confused. Err, never mind. I just did some research, and it seems that I got some bad info. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17833|11996|2008-07-18 23:38:18|Tom Mann|Re: Sandblasting inside|Hello Ted How do you like the zinga? and how are you applying it, spray? I tryed using the shop vac to pickup the main mess but it would plug up the filter in about 5 minutes, for us we found it was easier just to scoop it up were we can then vac the the rest. This mornin I took the boat off trailer and have it setup to blast the rest of inside, should be able to finish up in about an hour, mainly the inside of keel and the center around floor. The rest of the inside has 3 coats 1 of strait epoxy and 2 epoxy with ceramic beads, what amazes me is how much epoxy I am using, 9 gallons so far and it wll take another 4 or 5 gallons before its finished. I hate to think how many gallons it would take for a 36 footer. Tom On 7/18/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > We had our BS 36 sandblasted and then painted it with Zinga when it was > still in its component stage. The boat is fully assembled now and we > have just had the bits that I forgot to sand blast before, the water > tanks the inside of the diesel tanks and the welds etc blasted and we > are in the process of applying Zinga. We took yesterday off to see > Leonard Cohen in concert, excellent. Anyway the blaster had a vacuum > cleaner based on a 40 gallon drum with three fans sucking the sand > through a 2" hose. We had to clean out the inside twice so that we > could see what had been missed. A powerful vacuum is much easier then > shovelling out. There was sand everywhere including over and in > adjacent tools, components and benches. The experience is that it would > have been better to have everything blasted and treated out in the > field before assembly and then perhaps to clean and treat the welds as > they are done. We were blasting for 10 hours and there are still a few > places missed. We still have a small trailer load of bits to blast, > the exhaust pipe flanges, tank tops, coolant pipes, an anchor and some > angles for the cockpit support. > > Regards, > Ted > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17834|11996|2008-07-20 14:01:40|James|Re: Sandblasting inside|Ted , i`ve been welding up my campervan, using zirconium grit discs on 4 1/2 " angle grinders ,, and wonder how they would work on a much larger area , they are great on kinda half metre square , what do you think ? jim , scotland On 7/19/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > We had our BS 36 sandblasted and then painted it with Zinga when it was > still in its component stage. The boat is fully assembled now and we > have just had the bits that I forgot to sand blast before, the water > tanks the inside of the diesel tanks and the welds etc blasted and we > are in the process of applying Zinga. We took yesterday off to see > Leonard Cohen in concert, excellent. Anyway the blaster had a vacuum > cleaner based on a 40 gallon drum with three fans sucking the sand > through a 2" hose. We had to clean out the inside twice so that we > could see what had been missed. A powerful vacuum is much easier then > shovelling out. There was sand everywhere including over and in > adjacent tools, components and benches. The experience is that it would > have been better to have everything blasted and treated out in the > field before assembly and then perhaps to clean and treat the welds as > they are done. We were blasting for 10 hours and there are still a few > places missed. We still have a small trailer load of bits to blast, > the exhaust pipe flanges, tank tops, coolant pipes, an anchor and some > angles for the cockpit support. > > Regards, > Ted > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17835|17835|2008-07-20 16:23:39|Paul Thompson|Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|What are you guys using for a Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture? I need 25 gallons (112lt) for my cooling tank and have been quoted NZ$280 + 12.5% Gst per 5 Gal can for the stuff that you mix 3 to one with water. Is this the stuff to use or can you mix your own? Are there cheaper ways of doing this? The stuff that I was quoted on is NALCO/ALFLOC Maxitreat 3788. Thanks, Paul Thompson| 17836|11996|2008-07-20 17:43:41|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sandblasting inside|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 09:25:20PM -0400, Benjamin Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 12:58:38AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > We took yesterday off to see > > > Leonard Cohen in concert, excellent. > > > > Didn't he commit suicide - successfully - a number of years ago? Unless > > this is an alternate universe (or an alternate Leonard Cohen), I'm > > confused. > > Err, never mind. I just did some research, and it seems that I got some > bad info. Hi Ben, He seemed pretty original to me, there again I've never seen him before. Regards, Ted| 17837|17835|2008-07-20 18:01:18|Tom Mann|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|Would automotive antifreeze work? mix 50/50 and change every couple years, there are allso some conditioners that can be added to help with electrolises. This is what I figured on in the skeg. Tom On 7/20/08, Paul Thompson wrote: > > What are you guys using for a Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture? I > need 25 gallons (112lt) for my cooling tank and have been quoted > NZ$280 + 12.5% Gst per 5 Gal can for the stuff that you mix 3 to one > with water. Is this the stuff to use or can you mix your own? Are > there cheaper ways of doing this? The stuff that I was quoted on is > NALCO/ALFLOC Maxitreat 3788. > > Thanks, > > Paul Thompson > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17838|11996|2008-07-20 18:05:25|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sandblasting inside|Hi Tom, I am a fan of Zinga. We used it at work a while back and I was impressed with it. It does prefer a blasted clean surface or old galvanising. We have been brushing it on, although spraying would have been better and easier. Painting inside the water tanks is extremely trying. Because of its high solids it would need a spray set up with continual stirring. For the first blasting and painting phase we started to use paint rollers on the components but the napthalene in it made them come to bits and so we switched to brushing. I used sheepskin mittens turned inside out to paint the blasted stringer angles and flats before welding them in place and that worked well. The vacuum cleaner had two filters; the first one was very large and nearly lasted the interior clean out before it needed shaking. Are you using ceramic beads to provide some insulation? Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello Ted > How do you like the zinga? and how are you applying it, spray? > I tryed using the shop vac to pickup the main mess but it would plug up the > filter in about 5 minutes, for us we found it was easier just to scoop it up > were we can then vac the the rest. > This mornin I took the boat off trailer and have it setup to blast the rest > of inside, should be able to finish up in about an hour, mainly the inside > of keel and the center around floor. The rest of the inside has 3 coats 1 of > strait epoxy and 2 epoxy with ceramic beads, what amazes me is how much > epoxy I am using, 9 gallons so far and it wll take another 4 or 5 gallons > before its finished. I hate to think how many gallons it would take for a 36 > footer. > Tom > > > On 7/18/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > We had our BS 36 sandblasted and then painted it with Zinga when it was > > still in its component stage. The boat is fully assembled now and we > > have just had the bits that I forgot to sand blast before, the water > > tanks the inside of the diesel tanks and the welds etc blasted and we > > are in the process of applying Zinga. We took yesterday off to see > > Leonard Cohen in concert, excellent. Anyway the blaster had a vacuum > > cleaner based on a 40 gallon drum with three fans sucking the sand > > through a 2" hose. We had to clean out the inside twice so that we > > could see what had been missed. A powerful vacuum is much easier then > > shovelling out. There was sand everywhere including over and in > > adjacent tools, components and benches. The experience is that it would > > have been better to have everything blasted and treated out in the > > field before assembly and then perhaps to clean and treat the welds as > > they are done. We were blasting for 10 hours and there are still a few > > places missed. We still have a small trailer load of bits to blast, > > the exhaust pipe flanges, tank tops, coolant pipes, an anchor and some > > angles for the cockpit support. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17839|11996|2008-07-20 18:16:49|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sandblasting inside|Hi James, A blasted surface ideally to SA 2.5 is the best way to prepare steel for painting. It not only removes rust but roughens the surface providing asperities that hold the paint. I have never been able to match that surface with a grinder. That said some paints are stickier than others so the type of paint one is using is relevant. I have a sander which runs at lower revs than a grinder and have used that with a 24 ( I think) grit pad and that surface is quite rough. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > Ted , i`ve been welding up my campervan, using zirconium grit discs on 4 > 1/2 " angle grinders ,, and wonder how they would work on a much larger area > , they are great on kinda half metre square , what do you think ? jim , > scotland > > On 7/19/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > We had our BS 36 sandblasted and then painted it with Zinga when it was > > still in its component stage. The boat is fully assembled now and we > > have just had the bits that I forgot to sand blast before, the water > > tanks the inside of the diesel tanks and the welds etc blasted and we > > are in the process of applying Zinga. We took yesterday off to see > > Leonard Cohen in concert, excellent. Anyway the blaster had a vacuum > > cleaner based on a 40 gallon drum with three fans sucking the sand > > through a 2" hose. We had to clean out the inside twice so that we > > could see what had been missed. A powerful vacuum is much easier then > > shovelling out. There was sand everywhere including over and in > > adjacent tools, components and benches. The experience is that it would > > have been better to have everything blasted and treated out in the > > field before assembly and then perhaps to clean and treat the welds as > > they are done. We were blasting for 10 hours and there are still a few > > places missed. We still have a small trailer load of bits to blast, > > the exhaust pipe flanges, tank tops, coolant pipes, an anchor and some > > angles for the cockpit support. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17840|11996|2008-07-20 18:55:20|Tom Mann|Re: Sandblasting inside|Ted I am using the ceramic beads as the only insulation, 2 coats inside and 2 coats outside above waterline. Bit of an experament. If it works like I think it will, shoukd be an alternative to spray foam at a cost of about $75 not counting paint or labor. Above the births and cabnets is just painted steel no liner and all the bulkheads and such are offset 1" from hull, should have good air flow throughout . Finished blasting inside yesterday, took a coulpe hours but then it took about 6 hours cleaning up the mess, copper slag "clean blast " sure made a mess out of my nice white paint job, leaves a nice black film of dust that does not come off easy. The wife was wanting to wash it but I said no dont want to risk getting sandblasted area wet. Power for the coarse this morning I was doing the final clean up with shop vac, brush, and air allmost done and it rained for about 5 minutes! Anyway I got one coat on and heading out in a few to put the second on. Brush painting this part, to many angles and creaveces cant get to with gun. I thought using HVLP gun was slow but brush painting is like shifting to grama gear. Tom On 7/20/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > I am a fan of Zinga. We used it at work a while back and I was > impressed with it. It does prefer a blasted clean surface or old > galvanising. We have been brushing it on, although spraying would > have been better and easier. Painting inside the water tanks is > extremely trying. Because of its high solids it would need a spray > set up with continual stirring. For the first blasting and painting > phase we started to use paint rollers on the components but the > napthalene in it made them come to bits and so we switched to > brushing. I used sheepskin mittens turned inside out to paint the > blasted stringer angles and flats before welding them in place and > that worked well. The vacuum cleaner had two filters; the first one > was very large and nearly lasted the interior clean out before it > needed shaking. > Are you using ceramic beads to provide some insulation? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Hello Ted > > How do you like the zinga? and how are you applying it, spray? > > I tryed using the shop vac to pickup the main mess but it would > plug up the > > filter in about 5 minutes, for us we found it was easier just to > scoop it up > > were we can then vac the the rest. > > This mornin I took the boat off trailer and have it setup to blast > the rest > > of inside, should be able to finish up in about an hour, mainly the > inside > > of keel and the center around floor. The rest of the inside has 3 > coats 1 of > > strait epoxy and 2 epoxy with ceramic beads, what amazes me is how > much > > epoxy I am using, 9 gallons so far and it wll take another 4 or 5 > gallons > > before its finished. I hate to think how many gallons it would take > for a 36 > > footer. > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/18/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > We had our BS 36 sandblasted and then painted it with Zinga when > it was > > > still in its component stage. The boat is fully assembled now > and we > > > have just had the bits that I forgot to sand blast before, the > water > > > tanks the inside of the diesel tanks and the welds etc blasted > and we > > > are in the process of applying Zinga. We took yesterday off to > see > > > Leonard Cohen in concert, excellent. Anyway the blaster had a > vacuum > > > cleaner based on a 40 gallon drum with three fans sucking the sand > > > through a 2" hose. We had to clean out the inside twice so that > we > > > could see what had been missed. A powerful vacuum is much easier > then > > > shovelling out. There was sand everywhere including over and in > > > adjacent tools, components and benches. The experience is that it > would > > > have been better to have everything blasted and treated out in the > > > field before assembly and then perhaps to clean and treat the > welds as > > > they are done. We were blasting for 10 hours and there are still > a few > > > places missed. We still have a small trailer load of bits to > blast, > > > the exhaust pipe flanges, tank tops, coolant pipes, an anchor and > some > > > angles for the cockpit support. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17841|17835|2008-07-20 19:26:29|Paul Thompson|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|This is automotive Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture. You mix it 3 to 1 with water. Regards, Paul Thompson On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Tom Mann wrote: > Would automotive antifreeze work? mix 50/50 and change every couple > years, there are allso some conditioners that can be added to help with > electrolises. This is what I figured on in the skeg. > Tom > > > On 7/20/08, Paul Thompson wrote: >> >> What are you guys using for a Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture? I >> need 25 gallons (112lt) for my cooling tank and have been quoted >> NZ$280 + 12.5% Gst per 5 Gal can for the stuff that you mix 3 to one >> with water. Is this the stuff to use or can you mix your own? Are >> there cheaper ways of doing this? The stuff that I was quoted on is >> NALCO/ALFLOC Maxitreat 3788. >> | 17842|17835|2008-07-20 22:00:35|Paul Wilson|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|Paul is right. I just used regular 5 yr/ 250000 km antifreeze concentrate and mix it as directed. 25 gallons sounds like a lot. I thought I only used about 12 gallons of mix on my 36 footer but it's been a few years so I may be confused. I will be doing it again in the next month or so and this time I will write it down.. Cheers, Paul (the other one) From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Thompson Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 11:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture This is automotive Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture. You mix it 3 to 1 with water. Regards, Paul Thompson On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Tom Mann > wrote: > Would automotive antifreeze work? mix 50/50 and change every couple > years, there are allso some conditioners that can be added to help with > electrolises. This is what I figured on in the skeg. > Tom > > > On 7/20/08, Paul Thompson > wrote: >> >> What are you guys using for a Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture? I >> need 25 gallons (112lt) for my cooling tank and have been quoted >> NZ$280 + 12.5% Gst per 5 Gal can for the stuff that you mix 3 to one >> with water. Is this the stuff to use or can you mix your own? Are >> there cheaper ways of doing this? The stuff that I was quoted on is >> NALCO/ALFLOC Maxitreat 3788. >> No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.3/1563 - Release Date: 7/20/2008 12:59 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17843|17835|2008-07-20 22:02:49|Tom Mann|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|I havnt bought any antifreeze in a while but last time I bought it was around $10 a gallon US, Did the price go through the roof like fuel did? Tom On 7/20/08, Paul Thompson wrote: > > This is automotive Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture. You mix it 3 to > 1 with water. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Tom Mann wrote: > > Would automotive antifreeze work? mix 50/50 and change every couple > > years, there are allso some conditioners that can be added to help with > > electrolises. This is what I figured on in the skeg. > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/20/08, Paul Thompson wrote: > >> > >> What are you guys using for a Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture? I > >> need 25 gallons (112lt) for my cooling tank and have been quoted > >> NZ$280 + 12.5% Gst per 5 Gal can for the stuff that you mix 3 to one > >> with water. Is this the stuff to use or can you mix your own? Are > >> there cheaper ways of doing this? The stuff that I was quoted on is > >> NALCO/ALFLOC Maxitreat 3788. > >> > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17844|17835|2008-07-20 22:44:04|Wesley Cox|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|I bought it not long ago in the US for about US $8/gal ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 9:02 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture I havnt bought any antifreeze in a while but last time I bought it was around $10 a gallon US, Did the price go through the roof like fuel did? Tom On 7/20/08, Paul Thompson wrote: > > This is automotive Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture. You mix it 3 to > 1 with water. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Tom Mann wrote: > > Would automotive antifreeze work? mix 50/50 and change every couple > > years, there are allso some conditioners that can be added to help with > > electrolises. This is what I figured on in the skeg. > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/20/08, Paul Thompson wrote: > >> > >> What are you guys using for a Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture? I > >> need 25 gallons (112lt) for my cooling tank and have been quoted > >> NZ$280 + 12.5% Gst per 5 Gal can for the stuff that you mix 3 to one > >> with water. Is this the stuff to use or can you mix your own? Are > >> there cheaper ways of doing this? The stuff that I was quoted on is > >> NALCO/ALFLOC Maxitreat 3788. > >> > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.3/1563 - Release Date: 7/20/2008 12:59 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17845|17835|2008-07-21 00:52:59|Paul Thompson|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|Paul (Wilson), My boat is not a BS (I do have the plans for the BS36 and most likely will build if I cannot find one second hand in NZ, AU or Fiji) she is a very heavily modified Westy Farmer Tahitiana. My cooling tank is in the keel and is quite large. I also use it for cooling the fridge condenser. I just found another source, this time BNT Auto they want NZ$100.00 for 20LT (apox 6Gal) but will accept NZ$88 if I take 2 - 3 20lt drums. Their stuff must be mixed 50/50 I will carry on looking for the moment as the price still seems rather steep to me. Regards, Paul Thompson On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Paul is right. I just used regular 5 yr/ 250000 km antifreeze concentrate > and mix it as directed. 25 gallons sounds like a lot. I thought I only > used about 12 gallons of mix on my 36 footer but it's been a few years so I > may be confused. I will be doing it again in the next month or so and this > time I will write it down.. > > Cheers, Paul (the other one) | 17846|17846|2008-07-21 05:57:05|ballantinebarbara|Todays Freebies! (21st July)|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the latest freebie (21st July) page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/?page=5 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17847|17655|2008-07-21 11:34:40|Tom Mann|Re: aluminium pilot house|Few thoughts on the idea, mabee a more traditional aproach like when they setup for plywood cabin. Instead of stainless that would add another metal in the mix, why not use steel, say 1/4" x 5" or bigger strip protrude below deck level an inch or so, side deck beams cut to fit it at the right angle, fully welded, then blast and paint several coats of epoxy, do the same on inside of aluminum where atached, then all that would have to be isolated is the bolts and thats easy enough. Tom On 6/30/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > cheers > with the advice on aluminum pilot house design > > takes a load off my mind > > decided to go for a 4mm marine grade aluminum pilot house > bolted on to a 100mm x 4mm lip 316 stainless > > haven't worked out what type of insulator i'm using yet > > look forward to some pictures posted on origamiboats of the entire > operation > fuc*k ups and all > > shane > > > > ost pictures on yahoogroups.com > mistakes and all > cheers > shane > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:55:07 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the aluminium from > the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? It appears that bolt on > is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in > stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding " , it`s in the states > but has > > some info on the strip. james > > > > > > On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > > > > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > > > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for a > > > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in > > > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > > > direct me to it. > > > Pol > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > > > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you weld > > > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > > > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some > > > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the > source > > > >right now. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17848|11996|2008-07-21 14:52:34|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Sandblasting inside|No,just made everyone else want to cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17849|17835|2008-07-21 15:00:26|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|Am I missing something but why do you need antifreeze in the first place - unless you are in a location where you are going to be frozen in.If the boat is out of the water for the winter then surely you drain the cooling system. cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 17850|17835|2008-07-21 15:23:35|Paul Thompson|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|Andy, It is not just antifreeze, the mixture contains corrosion inhibitors as well. Modern diesels (in fact all modern engines) have many different metals in them. Running straight water in their cooling systems is death for the engine, and it does not take to long either. If you put straight water into a new car, you invalidate your warranty straight away. Regards, Paul Thompson On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 7:00 AM, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > Am I missing something but why do you need antifreeze in the first place - unless you are in a location where you are going to be frozen in.If the boat is out of the water for the winter then surely you drain the cooling system. > cheers > andy airey > | 17851|17835|2008-07-21 17:51:30|Tom Mann|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|Not only the engine but the skeg or keel cooler would rust out in a hurry with streight water. Tom On 7/21/08, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Andy, > > It is not just antifreeze, the mixture contains corrosion inhibitors > as well. Modern diesels (in fact all modern engines) have many > different metals in them. Running straight water in their cooling > systems is death for the engine, and it does not take to long either. > If you put straight water into a new car, you invalidate your warranty > straight away. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 7:00 AM, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Am I missing something but why do you need antifreeze in the first place > - unless you are in a location where you are going to be frozen in.If the > boat is out of the water for the winter then surely you drain the cooling > system. > > cheers > > andy airey > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17852|17711|2008-07-22 02:57:09|theboilerflue|Re: BS 26 Blast and paint fun|Hey tom just curious how much paint you used, how much zinc primer and how much coal tar. i'm just about ready to start painting my hull it's a 36' was thinking somewhere between 20-30 US gallons of epoxy but wasn't sure how much zinc primer Then I brush painted the inside > edge of toe rail and commenced to spraying. spray gun was acting up to, > finaly figured that out, had a chunk of something unrecignizable stuck in > it, figured that out half way though the job. I am going to get one more > coat on the topsides then tackle the inside, at least its white on top and > stays about a 100 degrees cooler. The grey and rust mix would get so hot you > couldn't touch it. > It's beer O clock now > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17853|17711|2008-07-22 14:20:51|Tom Mann|Re: BS 26 Blast and paint fun|Hello I used 2 gallons of zinc primer on the outside and I just bought 2 more gallons of epoxy to make a total of 12 gallons epoxy so far. More than likley I will end up using 14- 15 gallons of epoxy, the epoxy I am using is not coal tar its a sherwin williams idustrial- marine coating, macro poxy 646. Zinc primers have been outlawed here so I cant buy local but I can get it from the east coast, problem is the hazerd shipping makes it pritty pricey by the time I get it. Tom On 7/21/08, theboilerflue wrote: > > Hey tom just curious how much paint you used, how much zinc primer > and how much coal tar. i'm just about ready to start painting my hull > it's a 36' was thinking somewhere between 20-30 US gallons of epoxy > but wasn't sure how much zinc primer > > Then I brush painted the inside > > edge of toe rail and commenced to spraying. spray gun was acting up to, > > finaly figured that out, had a chunk of something unrecignizable > stuck in > > it, figured that out half way though the job. I am going to get one > more > > coat on the topsides then tackle the inside, at least its white on > top and > > stays about a 100 degrees cooler. The grey and rust mix would get so > hot you > > couldn't touch it. > > It's beer O clock now > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17854|17854|2008-07-22 16:42:13|Gary Prebble|Oil brands|Moving about as sailors do, I have accumulated several different brands of #40 diesel engine oil. Any problem mixing them? Just want to get rid of all of the partial containers. Thanks Gary| 17855|17855|2008-07-22 17:55:22|Jim Ragsdale|fuel, water, waste deck fills|What does everyone use for their deck fills? Pipe nipple with a plug or a cap? Is an o-ring type seal better than pipe threads?| 17856|17711|2008-07-22 21:20:00|theboilerflue|Re: BS 26 Blast and paint fun|that's not as much zinc primer as i thought one would use. but that's good thing as that stuff is pretty pricey even though it's not outlawed here. I'm guess the 26 footers have about five hundred less square feet to them than the 36ers do? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello > I used 2 gallons of zinc primer on the outside and I just bought 2 more > gallons of epoxy to make a total of 12 gallons epoxy so far. More than > likley I will end up using 14- 15 gallons of epoxy, the epoxy I am using is > not coal tar its a sherwin williams idustrial- marine coating, macro poxy > 646. Zinc primers have been outlawed here so I cant buy local but I can get > it from the east coast, problem is the hazerd shipping makes it pritty > pricey by the time I get it. > Tom > > > On 7/21/08, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > Hey tom just curious how much paint you used, how much zinc primer > > and how much coal tar. i'm just about ready to start painting my hull > > it's a 36' was thinking somewhere between 20-30 US gallons of epoxy > > but wasn't sure how much zinc primer > > > > Then I brush painted the inside > > > edge of toe rail and commenced to spraying. spray gun was acting up to, > > > finaly figured that out, had a chunk of something unrecignizable > > stuck in > > > it, figured that out half way though the job. I am going to get one > > more > > > coat on the topsides then tackle the inside, at least its white on > > top and > > > stays about a 100 degrees cooler. The grey and rust mix would get so > > hot you > > > couldn't touch it. > > > It's beer O clock now > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17857|17857|2008-07-23 04:41:34|rahmatak argo|Are you smoker?|*The reason why smoking is haraam * ** visit the album ** *why is smoking haram? * *-----------------------------------* *Praise be to Allaah. * *Perhaps you know that all nations of the world � Muslim and kaafir alike � have now started to fight smoking, because they know that it is very harmful. Islam forbids everything that is harmful, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "There should be no harming or reciprocating harm." * *Undoubtedly there are foods and drinks which are beneficial and good, and others which are harmful and bad. Allaah described our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in the following terms (interpretation of the meaning): * *"he allows them as lawful At Tayyibaat (i.e. all good and lawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons and foods), and prohibits them as unlawful Al Khabaa'ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons and foods) * *[al-A'raaf 7:157] * *Is smoking one of the good and lawful things (al-tayyibaat) or one of the evil and unlawful things (al-khabaa'ith)? * *Secondly: it was narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Allaah forbids you to trade gossip, to ask too many questions and to waste money." And Allaah forbade wasteful extravagance when He said (interpretation of the meaning): * *"and eat and drink but waste not by extravagance, certainly He (Allaah) likes not Al Musrifoon (those who waste by extravagance) [al-A'raaf 7:31] * *And He described the slaves of the Most Merciful as follows (interpretation of the meaning): * *"And those who, when they spend, are neither extravagant nor niggardly, but hold a medium (way) between those (extremes)" [al-Furqaan 25:67] * *The whole world now knows that the money spent on smoking is to be considered as money wasted, from which no benefit is gained; indeed, it is money spent on something harmful. If the money which is spent on smoking worldwide were to be collected, it could have saved entire populations who have died of starvation. Is there anyone more foolish that one who holds a dollar bill and sets fire to it? What is the difference between him and the one who smokes? Indeed, the smoker is more foolish, because the folly of the one who burns a dollar bill ends there, whilst the one who smokes burns his money and also harms his body. * *Thirdly: how many disasters have been caused by smoking, because of cigarette butts which are thrown away and cause fires. Other disasters have been caused in other ways, as when a house was burned down with its occupants inside, when a man lit his cigarette when there was a gas leak. * * Fourthly: how many people are offended by the smell of smokers, especially when you are unfortunate enough to have one of them standing next to you in the mosque. Probably any nasty smell is easier to bear than the smell of the smoker's mouth when he has just woken up. It is amazing how many women can put up with the smell of their husbands' mouths! The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade those who had eaten garlic or onions from coming to the mosque so that they would not offend their fellow-worshippers with their smell. The smell of onions and garlic is easier to bear than the smell of the smoker and his mouth. * *These are some of the reasons why smoking is haraam. * *Shaykh Sa'd al-Humayd* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17858|17655|2008-07-23 09:55:36|Shane Duncan|Re: aluminium pilot house|interesting idea i realize  he hard part will be getting every thing to line up at the end.   the two ideas I've come up with so far for aluminum pilot house are   1 build the cabin in two halves indoors one being the rounded front end the other being the square pilot house fully weld in place a steel strip on deck, plonk both halves on the deck a few feet apart  then pull the two ends together over the strip using a few come along then weld up on a windless day.   2 build the whole cabin top in aluminum indoors then bolt on the steel strip at this stage.. plonk the cabin with steel strip attached, tack the strip in place pull the cabin top off fully weld the steel strip ,place an elastomer seal on the strip, plonk back on the cabin top then bolt.   there is a crane hire yard just opposite from where I'm building my boat. cheers shane   ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:34:37 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house Few thoughts on the idea, mabee a more traditional aproach like when they setup for plywood cabin. Instead of stainless that would add another metal in the mix, why not use steel, say 1/4" x 5" or bigger strip protrude below deck level an inch or so, side deck beams cut to fit it at the right angle, fully welded, then blast and paint several coats of epoxy, do the same on inside of aluminum where atached, then all that would have to be isolated is the bolts and thats easy enough. Tom On 6/30/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > cheers > with the advice on aluminum pilot house design > > takes a load off my mind > > decided to go for a 4mm marine grade aluminum pilot house > bolted on to a 100mm x 4mm  lip 316 stainless > > haven't worked out what type of insulator i'm using yet > > look forward to some pictures posted on origamiboats of the entire > operation > fuc*k ups and all > > shane > > > >  ost pictures on yahoogroups.com > mistakes and all > cheers > shane > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:55:07 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the aluminium from > the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? It appears that bolt on > is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in > stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding "  , it`s in the states > but has > > some info on the strip.  james > > > > > > On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > > > > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > > > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for a > > > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in > > > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > > > direct me to it. > > > Pol > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > > > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you weld > > > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > > > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some > > > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the > source > > > >right now. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17859|17859|2008-07-23 10:33:51|philip878|YES OR NO WILL DO|Ihave had computer problems and lost BRENT SWAINS STREET ADDRESS i HAVE EMAILED HIM FOR IT NO LUCK I HAVE NOW FOUND ADREES ON THIS SITE IF I SEND MONEY FOR PLANS WOULD I GET AN PLANS SENT TO ME CAN SOMEONE TELL ME IF THEY ARE STILL SOLD.....A YES OR NO WOULD DO SORRY TO HASSEL YOU ALL.......help please| 17860|17859|2008-07-23 16:18:32|Paul Wilson|Re: YES OR NO WILL DO|As far as I know, Brent's address hasn't changed. He only checks his e-mail once in a while and may be out sailing. Also, your e-mail might have been blocked since Brent uses hotmail. Google "hotmail blocking emails" and you will get lots of matches. Check out: http://www.lockergnome.com/eksodos/2008/06/01/why-you-shouldnt-trust-hotmail -to-receive-your-email/ I have also heard but can't confirm that hotmail is blocking any domains that haven't paid a royalty fee. I would advise no one to use hotmail. There are much better free e-mail systems like gmail or yahoo. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of philip878 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:34 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] YES OR NO WILL DO Ihave had computer problems and lost BRENT SWAINS STREET ADDRESS i HAVE EMAILED HIM FOR IT NO LUCK I HAVE NOW FOUND ADREES ON THIS SITE IF I SEND MONEY FOR PLANS WOULD I GET AN PLANS SENT TO ME CAN SOMEONE TELL ME IF THEY ARE STILL SOLD.....A YES OR NO WOULD DO SORRY TO HASSEL YOU ALL.......help please No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1568 - Release Date: 7/23/2008 6:55 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17861|17859|2008-07-23 16:39:21|brentswain38|Re: YES OR NO WILL DO|My address is still 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC Canada V0R2V0. Been busy. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" wrote: > > Ihave had computer problems and lost BRENT SWAINS STREET ADDRESS > i HAVE EMAILED HIM FOR IT NO LUCK I HAVE NOW FOUND ADREES ON THIS SITE > IF I SEND MONEY FOR PLANS WOULD I GET AN PLANS SENT TO ME CAN SOMEONE > TELL ME IF THEY ARE STILL SOLD.....A YES OR NO WOULD DO > SORRY TO HASSEL YOU ALL.......help please > | 17862|17655|2008-07-23 16:42:55|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house|I'd be inclined to weld a stainless strip about 3 inches high on the steel deck around the base of the wheelhouse, then pop rivet the pilothouse together in place, then take it to a shop to weld up on a bench before bolting it down. Do all the detail you can in the shop as well. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > interesting idea > i realize he hard part will be getting every thing to line up at the end. > > the two ideas I've come up with so far for aluminum pilot house are > > 1 build the cabin in two halves indoors one being the rounded front end the other being the square pilot house > fully weld in place a steel strip on deck, plonk both halves on the deck a few feet apart > then pull the two ends together over the strip using a few come along then weld up on a windless day. > > 2 build the whole cabin top in aluminum indoors then bolt on the steel strip at this stage.. > plonk the cabin with steel strip attached, tack the strip in place pull the cabin top off > fully weld the steel strip ,place an elastomer seal on the strip, plonk back on the cabin top then bolt. > > there is a crane hire yard just opposite from where I'm building my boat. > cheers > shane > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:34:37 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > Few thoughts on the idea, mabee a more traditional aproach like when they > setup for plywood cabin. Instead of stainless that would add another metal > in the mix, why not use steel, say 1/4" x 5" or bigger strip protrude below > deck level an inch or so, side deck beams cut to fit it at the right angle, > fully welded, then blast and paint several coats of epoxy, do the same on > inside of aluminum where atached, then all that would have to be isolated is > the bolts and thats easy enough. > Tom > > > On 6/30/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > cheers > > with the advice on aluminum pilot house design > > > > takes a load off my mind > > > > decided to go for a 4mm marine grade aluminum pilot house > > bolted on to a 100mm x 4mm lip 316 stainless > > > > haven't worked out what type of insulator i'm using yet > > > > look forward to some pictures posted on origamiboats of the entire > > operation > > fuc*k ups and all > > > > shane > > > > > > > > ost pictures on yahoogroups.com > > mistakes and all > > cheers > > shane > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:55:07 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > > > How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the aluminium from > > the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? It appears that bolt on > > is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in > > stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > > > I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding " , it`s in the states > > but has > > > some info on the strip. james > > > > > > > > > On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > > > > > > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > > > > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for a > > > > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in > > > > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > > > > direct me to it. > > > > Pol > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > > > > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you weld > > > > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > > > > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some > > > > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the > > source > > > > >right now. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17863|17835|2008-07-23 16:44:31|brentswain38|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|Yes 50 - 50 auto antifreeze is what I have been using since 1996. No problems. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Would automotive antifreeze work? mix 50/50 and change every couple > years, there are allso some conditioners that can be added to help with > electrolises. This is what I figured on in the skeg. > Tom > > > On 7/20/08, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > What are you guys using for a Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture? I > > need 25 gallons (112lt) for my cooling tank and have been quoted > > NZ$280 + 12.5% Gst per 5 Gal can for the stuff that you mix 3 to one > > with water. Is this the stuff to use or can you mix your own? Are > > there cheaper ways of doing this? The stuff that I was quoted on is > > NALCO/ALFLOC Maxitreat 3788. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17864|17855|2008-07-23 16:48:02|brentswain38|Re: fuel, water, waste deck fills|SS pipe nipples work well. Its important to get your fillers up off the deck. Flush ones let water in if you forget to tighten them , or if you have to fuel from Jerry cans in less than ideal coonditions. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > What does everyone use for their deck fills? Pipe nipple with a plug or a cap? Is an o-ring type seal better than pipe threads? > | 17865|17859|2008-07-23 16:49:19|brentswain38|Re: YES OR NO WILL DO|Yes plans are still available from that address. Nothings changed. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" wrote: > > Ihave had computer problems and lost BRENT SWAINS STREET ADDRESS > i HAVE EMAILED HIM FOR IT NO LUCK I HAVE NOW FOUND ADREES ON THIS SITE > IF I SEND MONEY FOR PLANS WOULD I GET AN PLANS SENT TO ME CAN SOMEONE > TELL ME IF THEY ARE STILL SOLD.....A YES OR NO WOULD DO > SORRY TO HASSEL YOU ALL.......help please > | 17866|17655|2008-07-23 17:11:17|Tom Mann|Re: aluminium pilot house|I was thinking build like normal cabin, bolt sides on and go from there with good tacks to hold together, put a few temp cross braces at bottom cabin sides, unbolt and lift off, jig up streight and weld it up. just make sure to copensate for thickness of seal, shim the sides out whatever the thickness may be. what grade and thickness of aluminum are you using? Tom On 7/23/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > interesting idea > i realize he hard part will be getting every thing to line up at the end. > > the two ideas I've come up with so far for aluminum pilot house are > > 1 build the cabin in two halves indoors one being the rounded front end the > other being the square pilot house > fully weld in place a steel strip on deck, plonk both halves on the deck a > few feet apart > then pull the two ends together over the strip using a few come along then > weld up on a windless day. > > 2 build the whole cabin top in aluminum indoors then bolt on the steel > strip at this stage.. > plonk the cabin with steel strip attached, tack the strip in place pull the > cabin top off > fully weld the steel strip ,place an elastomer seal on the strip, plonk > back on the cabin top then bolt. > > there is a crane hire yard just opposite from where I'm building my boat. > cheers > shane > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:34:37 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > Few thoughts on the idea, mabee a more traditional aproach like when they > setup for plywood cabin. Instead of stainless that would add another metal > in the mix, why not use steel, say 1/4" x 5" or bigger strip protrude below > deck level an inch or so, side deck beams cut to fit it at the right angle, > fully welded, then blast and paint several coats of epoxy, do the same on > inside of aluminum where atached, then all that would have to be isolated > is > the bolts and thats easy enough. > Tom > > > On 6/30/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > cheers > > with the advice on aluminum pilot house design > > > > takes a load off my mind > > > > decided to go for a 4mm marine grade aluminum pilot house > > bolted on to a 100mm x 4mm lip 316 stainless > > > > haven't worked out what type of insulator i'm using yet > > > > look forward to some pictures posted on origamiboats of the entire > > operation > > fuc*k ups and all > > > > shane > > > > > > > > ost pictures on yahoogroups.com > > mistakes and all > > cheers > > shane > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:55:07 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > > > How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the aluminium from > > the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? It appears that bolt on > > is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in > > stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > > > I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding " , it`s in the states > > but has > > > some info on the strip. james > > > > > > > > > On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > > > > > > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > > > > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for > a > > > > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in > > > > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > > > > direct me to it. > > > > Pol > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > > > > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you > weld > > > > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > > > > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some > > > > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the > > source > > > > >right now. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17867|17655|2008-07-23 18:04:47|polaris041|Re: aluminium pilot house|Shane; what happened to the threatened phots; warts and all? regards Pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > interesting idea > i realize  he hard part will be getting every thing to line up at the end. >   > the two ideas I've come up with so far for aluminum pilot house are >   > 1 build the cabin in two halves indoors one being the rounded front end the other being the square pilot house > fully weld in place a steel strip on deck, plonk both halves on the deck a few feet apart  > then pull the two ends together over the strip using a few come along then weld up on a windless day. >   > 2 build the whole cabin top in aluminum indoors then bolt on the steel strip at this stage.. > plonk the cabin with steel strip attached, tack the strip in place pull the cabin top off > fully weld the steel strip ,place an elastomer seal on the strip, plonk back on the cabin top then bolt. >   > there is a crane hire yard just opposite from where I'm building my boat. > cheers > shane | 17868|17868|2008-07-23 21:12:30|Martin Demers|zinc portable coating gun|Hi, I once saw someone who had use a portable gun(tool) to galvanise is steel sailboat, does anyone had ever use or has some experience with such a tool? Martin.| 17869|17868|2008-07-23 23:56:08|djackson99@aol.com|Re: zinc portable coating gun|Sounds like you are talking about thermal spray or metallizing: http://www.oryxadv.com/?q=thermal_spray I asked a few people about it and the consensus was that it was inferior to epoxy. I'd like to hear the opinion from someone who has experience with it as a hull treatment. Just for kicks I checked what it would cost to get my hull plate hot dipped galvanized.? They charge by the pound after the object is dipped which is kind of strange, but for 1/4" plate is came out to $3.46/sq foot (including both sides) Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Martin Demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 8:12 pm Subject: [origamiboats] zinc portable coating gun Hi, I once saw someone who had use a portable gun(tool) to galvanise is steel sailboat, does anyone had ever use or has some experience with such a tool? Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17870|17870|2008-07-24 00:31:23|philip878|many thanks no offence intended|i have talked to a few boaties in new zealand as far as ease of building with steel this ideas the one......| 17871|17871|2008-07-24 05:08:58|laurahennesey|Freebies 24th July (enjoy!)|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the latest freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/?page=6 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17872|17868|2008-07-24 09:26:34|martin demers|Re: zinc portable coating gun|Hi Doug, it is hard to tell from the picture on Oryx site, but the zinc gun I once saw seemed smaller, it lookliked a portable drill and would fit in a small tool box. That was more than fifteen years ago so the souvenir I have from it is a bit vague. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: djackson99@... > Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:55:54 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc portable coating gun > > > Sounds like you are talking about thermal spray or metallizing: > http://www.oryxadv.com/?q=thermal_spray > > I asked a few people about it and the consensus was that it was inferior to epoxy. > > I'd like to hear the opinion from someone who has experience with it as a hull treatment. > > Just for kicks I checked what it would cost to get my hull plate hot dipped galvanized.? They charge by the pound after the object is dipped which is kind of strange, but for 1/4" plate is came out to $3.46/sq foot (including both sides) > > Doug J > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Demers > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 8:12 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] zinc portable coating gun > > Hi, > > I once saw someone who had use a portable gun(tool) to galvanise is steel sailboat, > > does anyone had ever use or has some experience with such a tool? > > Martin. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17873|17868|2008-07-24 10:53:31|djackson99@aol.com|Re: zinc portable coating gun|Martin That sounds like a wire feed gun.? A power feed gun will have a canister on top for the power.? They are also called "flame spray".? Google images has lots of photos of these: http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&safe=off&q=flame+spray&btnG=Search+Images They use an electric arc to melt the wire or power and then high pressure air to blow it onto the metal surface. Doug J -----Original Message----- From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 8:26 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc portable coating gun Hi Doug, it is hard to tell from the picture on Oryx site, but the zinc gun I once saw seemed smaller, it lookliked a portable drill and would fit in a small tool box. That was more than fifteen years ago so the souvenir I have from it is a bit vague. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: djackson99@... > Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:55:54 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc portable coating gun > > > Sounds like you are talking about thermal spray or metallizing: > http://www.oryxadv.com/?q=thermal_spray > > I asked a few people about it and the consensus was that it was inferior to epoxy. > > I'd like to hear the opinion from someone who has experience with it as a hull treatment. > > Just for kicks I checked what it would cost to get my hull plate hot dipped galvanized.? They charge by the pound after the object is dipped which is kind of strange, but for 1/4" plate is came out to $3.46/sq foot (including both sides) > > Doug J > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Demers > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 8:12 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] zinc portable coating gun > > Hi, > > I once saw someone who had use a portable gun(tool) to galvanise is steel sailboat, > > does anyone had ever use or has some experience with such a tool? > > Martin. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > __________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17874|17655|2008-07-24 10:58:56|Shane Duncan|Re: aluminium pilot house|Pol   the first photo in the aluminum pilot house warts and all just added http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/view/b04f?b=6 finished putting on the 3mm decking today hope i'm still smiling when its all finished   cheers shane     ----- Original Message ---- From: polaris041 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:04:45 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house Shane; what happened to the threatened phots; warts and all? regards Pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > interesting idea > i realize  he hard part will be getting every thing to line up at the end. >   > the two ideas I've come up with so far for aluminum pilot house are >   > 1 build the cabin in two halves indoors one being the rounded front end the other being the square pilot house > fully weld in place a steel strip on deck, plonk both halves on the deck a few feet apart  > then pull the two ends together over the strip using a few come along then weld up on a windless day. >   > 2 build the whole cabin top in aluminum indoors then bolt on the steel strip at this stage.. > plonk the cabin with steel strip attached, tack the strip in place pull the cabin top off > fully weld the steel strip ,place an elastomer seal on the strip, plonk back on the cabin top then bolt. >   > there is a crane hire yard just opposite from where I'm building my boat. > cheers > shane ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17875|17868|2008-07-24 12:22:02|martin demers|Re: zinc portable coating gun|Doug, That is probably what I saw. Would be interesting to ear from someone who had experienced it. Martin. ____________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: djackson99@... > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:53:14 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc portable coating gun > > > Martin > > That sounds like a wire feed gun.? A power feed gun will have a canister on top for the power.? They are also called "flame spray".? Google images has lots of photos of these: > > http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&safe=off&q=flame+spray&btnG=Search+Images > > They use an electric arc to melt the wire or power and then high pressure air to blow it onto the metal surface. > > Doug J > > -----Original Message----- > From: martin demers > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 8:26 am > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc portable coating gun > > Hi Doug, > > it is hard to tell from the picture on Oryx site, but the zinc gun I once saw seemed smaller, it lookliked a portable drill and would fit in a small tool box. That was more than fifteen years ago so the souvenir I have from it is a bit vague. > > Martin. > > ________________________________ > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> From: djackson99@... > >> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:55:54 -0400 > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc portable coating gun > >> > >> > >> Sounds like you are talking about thermal spray or metallizing: > >> http://www.oryxadv.com/?q=thermal_spray > >> > >> I asked a few people about it and the consensus was that it was inferior to epoxy. > >> > >> I'd like to hear the opinion from someone who has experience with it as a hull treatment. > >> > >> Just for kicks I checked what it would cost to get my hull plate hot dipped galvanized.? They charge by the pound after the object is dipped which is kind of strange, but for 1/4" plate is came out to $3.46/sq foot (including both sides) > >> > >> Doug J > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Martin Demers > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 8:12 pm > >> Subject: [origamiboats] zinc portable coating gun > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I once saw someone who had use a portable gun(tool) to galvanise is steel sailboat, > >> > >> does anyone had ever use or has some experience with such a tool? > >> > >> Martin. > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > > __________________________________________________________ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17876|17835|2008-07-24 13:52:12|aguysailing|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|How often do you change the skeg 50/50 mixture? Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes 50 - 50 auto antifreeze is what I have been using since 1996. No > problems. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Would automotive antifreeze work? mix 50/50 and change every couple > > years, there are allso some conditioners that can be added to help with > > electrolises. This is what I figured on in the skeg. > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/20/08, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > What are you guys using for a Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture? I > > > need 25 gallons (112lt) for my cooling tank and have been quoted > > > NZ$280 + 12.5% Gst per 5 Gal can for the stuff that you mix 3 to one > > > with water. Is this the stuff to use or can you mix your own? Are > > > there cheaper ways of doing this? The stuff that I was quoted on is > > > NALCO/ALFLOC Maxitreat 3788. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17877|17877|2008-07-24 14:45:37|Martin Demers|zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|HI, In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, what I want to know is if it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe and sold in Canada. The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation coating and is different from paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it bonds to steel more than a primer will do. Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. If someone had use that product or something similar, I'd like to ear about it. Martin.| 17878|17835|2008-07-24 16:49:34|Paul Wilson|Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture|I have stuck to whatever it says on the antifreeze container. Usually 4 or 5 years. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aguysailing Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 5:52 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture How often do you change the skeg 50/50 mixture? Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes 50 - 50 auto antifreeze is what I have been using since 1996. No > problems. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Would automotive antifreeze work? mix 50/50 and change every couple > > years, there are allso some conditioners that can be added to help with > > electrolises. This is what I figured on in the skeg. > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/20/08, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > > What are you guys using for a Antifreeze/anticorrososive mixture? I > > > need 25 gallons (112lt) for my cooling tank and have been quoted > > > NZ$280 + 12.5% Gst per 5 Gal can for the stuff that you mix 3 to one > > > with water. Is this the stuff to use or can you mix your own? Are > > > there cheaper ways of doing this? The stuff that I was quoted on is > > > NALCO/ALFLOC Maxitreat 3788. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1570 - Release Date: 7/24/2008 6:59 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17879|17877|2008-07-24 17:46:57|Tom Mann|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Martin Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of manufactures make it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I used on the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, pretty soft and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under water for long term, Tom On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > HI, > > In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, what I > want to know is if > it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe and > sold in Canada. > The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation coating and > is different from > paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it bonds to > steel more than a > primer will do. > > Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > If someone had use that product or something similar, I'd like to ear about > it. > > Martin. > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17880|17877|2008-07-24 18:24:55|martin demers|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Tom, They sell the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and they think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 gallons for my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: tazmannm@... > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > Martin > Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of manufactures make > it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I used on > the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, pretty soft > and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under water for > long term, > Tom > > On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: >> >> HI, >> >> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, what I >> want to know is if >> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. >> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe and >> sold in Canada. >> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation coating and >> is different from >> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it bonds to >> steel more than a >> primer will do. >> >> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. >> >> If someone had use that product or something similar, I'd like to ear about >> it. >> >> Martin. >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17881|17877|2008-07-24 18:44:27|brentswain38|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|It''s a paint on primer , epoxy based, that leaves 85% or more zinc dry flim behind. Many people n manufacture it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > HI, > > In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, what I want to know is if > it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe and sold in Canada. > The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation coating and is different from > paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it bonds to steel more than a > primer will do. > > Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > If someone had use that product or something similar, I'd like to ear about it. > > Martin. > | 17882|17655|2008-07-24 18:47:40|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house|3/16th 5083 would work. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > I was thinking build like normal cabin, bolt sides on and go from there > with good tacks to hold together, put a few temp cross braces at bottom > cabin sides, unbolt and lift off, jig up streight and weld it up. just make > sure to copensate for thickness of seal, shim the sides out whatever the > thickness may be. > what grade and thickness of aluminum are you using? > Tom > > > On 7/23/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > interesting idea > > i realize he hard part will be getting every thing to line up at the end. > > > > the two ideas I've come up with so far for aluminum pilot house are > > > > 1 build the cabin in two halves indoors one being the rounded front end the > > other being the square pilot house > > fully weld in place a steel strip on deck, plonk both halves on the deck a > > few feet apart > > then pull the two ends together over the strip using a few come along then > > weld up on a windless day. > > > > 2 build the whole cabin top in aluminum indoors then bolt on the steel > > strip at this stage.. > > plonk the cabin with steel strip attached, tack the strip in place pull the > > cabin top off > > fully weld the steel strip ,place an elastomer seal on the strip, plonk > > back on the cabin top then bolt. > > > > there is a crane hire yard just opposite from where I'm building my boat. > > cheers > > shane > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:34:37 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > > > Few thoughts on the idea, mabee a more traditional aproach like when they > > setup for plywood cabin. Instead of stainless that would add another metal > > in the mix, why not use steel, say 1/4" x 5" or bigger strip protrude below > > deck level an inch or so, side deck beams cut to fit it at the right angle, > > fully welded, then blast and paint several coats of epoxy, do the same on > > inside of aluminum where atached, then all that would have to be isolated > > is > > the bolts and thats easy enough. > > Tom > > > > > > On 6/30/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > > > cheers > > > with the advice on aluminum pilot house design > > > > > > takes a load off my mind > > > > > > decided to go for a 4mm marine grade aluminum pilot house > > > bolted on to a 100mm x 4mm lip 316 stainless > > > > > > haven't worked out what type of insulator i'm using yet > > > > > > look forward to some pictures posted on origamiboats of the entire > > > operation > > > fuc*k ups and all > > > > > > shane > > > > > > > > > > > > ost pictures on yahoogroups.com > > > mistakes and all > > > cheers > > > shane > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:55:07 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > > > > > How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the aluminium from > > > the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? It appears that bolt on > > > is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in > > > stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > > > > > I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding " , it`s in the states > > > but has > > > > some info on the strip. james > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > > > > > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for > > a > > > > > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in > > > > > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > > > > > direct me to it. > > > > > Pol > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > > > > > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you > > weld > > > > > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > > > > > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some > > > > > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the > > > source > > > > > >right now. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17883|17868|2008-07-24 18:50:43|brentswain38|Re: zinc portable coating gun|Yes, I metalized a 36 once. Aluminium or aluminium zinc works best. My client bought the gun for $300 used with all the gear. He was told the US military was switching to arc from Oxy Acetylene so their metal spray guns would soon wind up in scrapyards. It took a lot of oxy acetylene. That was around 1994. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > Hi, > > I once saw someone who had use a portable gun(tool) to galvanise is steel sailboat, > does anyone had ever use or has some experience with such a tool? > > Martin. > | 17884|17854|2008-07-24 18:51:44|brentswain38|Re: Oil brands|I've never had a problem. You can also throw it in your diesel tank, which Gardner diesel recommends . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Moving about as sailors do, I have accumulated several different > brands of #40 diesel engine oil. Any problem mixing them? Just want > to get rid of all of the partial containers. > > Thanks > Gary > | 17885|17868|2008-07-24 18:55:18|brentswain38|Re: zinc portable coating gun|Unlike epoxy, it doesn't chip off, as long as you clean the gun very frequently while doing the spraying. It works well. For building your own boat, you can buy hot dipped sheets of galv 1/8th plate for much less. I wouldn't do it for aliving , but for your own boat, it's a one shot deal. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Sounds like you are talking about thermal spray or metallizing: > http://www.oryxadv.com/?q=thermal_spray > > I asked a few people about it and the consensus was that it was inferior to epoxy. > > I'd like to hear the opinion from someone who has experience with it as a hull treatment. > > Just for kicks I checked what it would cost to get my hull plate hot dipped galvanized.? They charge by the pound after the object is dipped which is kind of strange, but for 1/4" plate is came out to $3.46/sq foot (including both sides) > > Doug J > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Demers > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 8:12 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] zinc portable coating gun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I once saw someone who had use a portable gun(tool) to galvanise is steel sailboat, > > does anyone had ever use or has some experience with such a tool? > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17886|17859|2008-07-24 19:31:07|audeojude|Re: YES OR NO WILL DO|This isn't true as I own many domains that I send mail from and have never paid hotmail anything.. they don't even know I exist. But all my mails to hotmail addresses go through with no problem. scott ps.. as to their spam system blocking mails... well maybe. but even then it should end up in the blocked mail folder for the recipient to look through. biggest thing that might get you is lots of attachments or links in the body of the email. if it is just a straight up text email with none of the most common keywords such as one of the sex drugs etc.. in it then it should have no problems. > > I have also heard but can't confirm that hotmail is blocking any domains > that haven't paid a royalty fee. I would advise no one to use hotmail. > There are much better free e-mail systems like gmail or yahoo. > > Cheers, Paul > | 17887|17655|2008-07-24 20:13:09|Tom Mann|Re: aluminium pilot house|Hey Brent Would 5052 aluminum work? Its readily available and a whole lot cheaper around here. Tom On 7/24/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > 3/16th 5083 would work. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > I was thinking build like normal cabin, bolt sides on and go from > there > > with good tacks to hold together, put a few temp cross braces at bottom > > cabin sides, unbolt and lift off, jig up streight and weld it up. > just make > > sure to copensate for thickness of seal, shim the sides out whatever the > > thickness may be. > > what grade and thickness of aluminum are you using? > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/23/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > > > interesting idea > > > i realize he hard part will be getting every thing to line up at > the end. > > > > > > the two ideas I've come up with so far for aluminum pilot house are > > > > > > 1 build the cabin in two halves indoors one being the rounded > front end the > > > other being the square pilot house > > > fully weld in place a steel strip on deck, plonk both halves on > the deck a > > > few feet apart > > > then pull the two ends together over the strip using a few come > along then > > > weld up on a windless day. > > > > > > 2 build the whole cabin top in aluminum indoors then bolt on the steel > > > strip at this stage.. > > > plonk the cabin with steel strip attached, tack the strip in place > pull the > > > cabin top off > > > fully weld the steel strip ,place an elastomer seal on the strip, > plonk > > > back on the cabin top then bolt. > > > > > > there is a crane hire yard just opposite from where I'm building > my boat. > > > cheers > > > shane > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:34:37 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > > > > > Few thoughts on the idea, mabee a more traditional aproach like > when they > > > setup for plywood cabin. Instead of stainless that would add > another metal > > > in the mix, why not use steel, say 1/4" x 5" or bigger strip > protrude below > > > deck level an inch or so, side deck beams cut to fit it at the > right angle, > > > fully welded, then blast and paint several coats of epoxy, do the > same on > > > inside of aluminum where atached, then all that would have to be > isolated > > > is > > > the bolts and thats easy enough. > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > On 6/30/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > > > > > cheers > > > > with the advice on aluminum pilot house design > > > > > > > > takes a load off my mind > > > > > > > > decided to go for a 4mm marine grade aluminum pilot house > > > > bolted on to a 100mm x 4mm lip 316 stainless > > > > > > > > haven't worked out what type of insulator i'm using yet > > > > > > > > look forward to some pictures posted on origamiboats of the entire > > > > operation > > > > fuc*k ups and all > > > > > > > > shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ost pictures on yahoogroups.com > > > > mistakes and all > > > > cheers > > > > shane > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:55:07 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > > > > > > > How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the > aluminium from > > > > the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? It appears that bolt on > > > > is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in > > > > stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding " , it`s in the states > > > > but has > > > > > some info on the strip. james > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > > > > > > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and > low for > > > a > > > > > > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops > here in > > > > > > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > > > > > > direct me to it. > > > > > > Pol > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > > > > > > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, > so you > > > weld > > > > > > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > > > > > > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've > talked to some > > > > > > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the > > > > source > > > > > > >right now. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17888|17655|2008-07-24 20:34:31|polaris041|Re: aluminium pilot house|Try this link Tom; Works in this part of the world http://tinyurl.com.au/x.php?11aq regards pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hey Brent > Would 5052 aluminum work? Its readily available and a whole lot cheaper > around here. > Tom > > > On 7/24/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > 3/16th 5083 would work. > > Brent > > | 17889|17877|2008-07-24 20:34:43|Tom Mann|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago I paid $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top side could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. Tom On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > Tom, > > They sell the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and they > think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 gallons for > my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: tazmannm@... > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > Martin > > Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of manufactures make > > it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I used > on > > the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, pretty > soft > > and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under water > for > > long term, > > Tom > > > > On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > >> > >> HI, > >> > >> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, what > I > >> want to know is if > >> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > >> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe and > >> sold in Canada. > >> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation coating > and > >> is different from > >> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it bonds > to > >> steel more than a > >> primer will do. > >> > >> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > >> > >> If someone had use that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > about > >> it. > >> > >> Martin. > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17890|17877|2008-07-24 20:50:18|martin demers|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition but he said that is was very superior... and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not much for a so good zinc treatment... Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: tazmannm@... > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago I paid > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top side > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > Tom > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: >> >> >> Tom, >> >> They sell the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and they >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 gallons for >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) >> >> Martin >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: tazmannm@... >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of manufactures make >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I used >> on >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, pretty >> soft >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under water >> for >>> long term, >>> Tom >>> >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: >>>> >>>> HI, >>>> >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, what >> I >>>> want to know is if >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe and >>>> sold in Canada. >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation coating >> and >>>> is different from >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it bonds >> to >>>> steel more than a >>>> primer will do. >>>> >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. >>>> >>>> If someone had use that product or something similar, I'd like to ear >> about >>>> it. >>>> >>>> Martin. >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM¢Y¡† r%ˆHöúD…sin¤¢Ãß¾Ò-6ºOAg} ìÁ¼‘) | 17891|17859|2008-07-24 21:33:32|Ben Okopnik|Re: YES OR NO WILL DO|On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 11:31:01PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > This isn't true as I own many domains that I send mail from and have > never paid hotmail anything.. they don't even know I exist. But all my > mails to hotmail addresses go through with no problem. > scott That's my experience as well. In addition, a little thought experiment would clarify the same thing: a system that has a policy of blocking the majority of valid incoming mail will soon have no customers - especially given that there are lots of other free providers. > ps.. as to their spam system blocking mails... well maybe. but even > then it should end up in the blocked mail folder for the recipient to > look through. biggest thing that might get you is lots of attachments > or links in the body of the email. if it is just a straight up text > email with none of the most common keywords such as one of the sex > drugs etc.. in it then it should have no problems. The problem with Hotmail is the reverse of what Paul cited. Due to their permissive (read: "minimal or no authentication") sign-up policies, it became a favorite for spammers - who would create accounts by the thousands (usually by faking out Hotmail's "validation" with automated scripts.) They would then attack using those accounts - and if one got closed down, it wasn't a problem for them. As a result, many system administrators started blocking (or assigning a high spam score to) mail from Hotmail - and owning a Hotmail address became a sign of complete cluelessness, or perhaps of a close association with spammers. Even now, after Hotmail has improved their sign-up process, they (along with AOL) are still a mark of an ignorant newbie. Not trying to insult anyone here; that's just how it's seen. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17892|17877|2008-07-25 00:06:27|djackson99@aol.com|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Just for comparison, I got prices today from www.wassercoatings.com.  These are good until January. MC-Zinc 100  -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal MC-Tar - Red / Black  --  Black 51.44 /gal  249.37 /5gal   Red: 251.45 /5gal MC Thinner   -- $97.00 /5gal  -- Use with Zinc and Tar Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without blasting and priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. Doug J -----Original Message----- From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition but he said that is was very superior... and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not much for a so good zinc treatment... Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: tazmannm@... > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago I paid > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top side > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > Tom > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: >> >> >> Tom, >> >> They sell20the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and they >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 gallons for >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) >> >> Martin >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: tazmannm@... >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode >>> >>> >>> Martin >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of manufactures make >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I used >> on >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, pretty >> soft >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under water >> for >>> long term, >>> Tom >>> >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: >>>> >>>> HI, >>>> >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, what >> I >>>> want to know is if >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe and >>>> sold in Canada. >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation coating >> and >>>> is different from >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it bonds >> to >>>> steel more than a >>>> primer will do. >>>> >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. >>>> >>>> If someone had use that product or something similar, I'd like to ear >> about >>>> it. >>>> >>>> Martin. >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM¢Y¡† r%ˆHöúD…sin¤¢Ãß¾Ò-6ºOAg} ìÁ¼‘) ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17893|17877|2008-07-26 10:34:04|Tom Mann|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Doug Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it sure adds up in a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per sq, ft by the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost count. I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads mixed in and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap roller and was supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is about $4 and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when finished, reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean them, that and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to shoot out a quart and a half of paint. I wish I would have tryed that to start with. Tom On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from www.wassercoatings.com. > These are good until January. > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5gal -- Use with Zinc and > Tar > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without blasting and > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > Doug J > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: martin demers > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition but > he > said that is was very superior... > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not much > for a > so good zinc treatment... > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: tazmannm@... > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago I > paid > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top side > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > Tom > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > >> > >> > >> Tom, > >> > >> They sell20the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and they > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 gallons > for > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > >> > >> Martin > >> ________________________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> From: tazmannm@... > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > >>> > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of manufactures > make > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I > used > >> on > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, pretty > >> soft > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under water > >> for > >>> long term, > >>> Tom > >>> > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > >>>> > >>>> HI, > >>>> > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, > what > >> I > >>>> want to know is if > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe > and > >>>> sold in Canada. > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation coating > >> and > >>>> is different from > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it > bonds > >> to > >>>> steel more than a > >>>> primer will do. > >>>> > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > >>>> > >>>> If someone had use > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > >> about > >>>> it. > >>>> > >>>> Martin. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM�Y�� r%� H��D�si n������ -6 �O > Ag} > ���') > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17894|17877|2008-07-26 13:24:23|djackson99@aol.com|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Square foot estimate:  1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal.  /3 =  $85.35/gal  /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft  2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5=  $50/gal /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft   Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is over 1$ / sq ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is one of the reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but our steel plate came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax.  The zinc and epoxy tar coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft.  Even still, aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up front savings to cover the cost of blasting, and coatings.   I am interested in your use of ceramic beads.  They are mainly used for abrasion protection right?  But they will also act as insulation?  Your using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water line right? If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost?  Good Luck Doug J www.submarineboat.com -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode Doug Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it sure adds up in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per sq, ft by the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost count. I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads mixed in and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap roller and was supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is about $4 and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when finished, reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean them, that and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to shoot out a quart and a half of paint. I wish I would have tryed that to start with. Tom On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from www.wassercoatings.com. > These are good until January. > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5gal -- Use with Zinc and > Tar > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without blasting and > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > Doug J > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: martin demers > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition but > he > said that is was very superior... > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not much > for a > so good zinc treatment... > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: tazmannm@... > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago I > paid > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top side > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > Tom > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > >> > >> > >> Tom, > >> > >> They sell20the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and they > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 gallons > for > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > >> > >> Martin > >> ________________________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> From: tazmannm@... > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > >>> > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man ufactures > make > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I > used > >> on > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, pretty > >> soft > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under water > >> for > >>> long term, > >>> Tom > >>> > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > >>>> > >>>> HI, > >>>> > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, > what > >> I > >>>> want to know is if > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe > and > >>>> sold in Canada. > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation coating > >> and > >>>> is different from > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it > bonds > >> to > >>>> steel more than a > >>>> primer will do. > >>>> > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > >>>> > >>>> If someone had use > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > >> about > >>>> it. > >>>> > >>>> Martin. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM¢Y¡† r%ˆ HöúD…si n¤¢Ãß¾Ò -6 ºO > Ag} > ìÁ¼') > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it t o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17895|17877|2008-07-26 15:30:44|Tom Mann|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Doug The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. enough to treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 coats. Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with condinsation allso. www.hytechsales.com So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in direct sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white without it, inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat box anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am sure its not as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its good enough for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up ready for paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start painting in the mornin. Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted surface? I think all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray it around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and put a finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off from the clean blast is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water streakes comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of angle iron and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting will get under there 100% . Tom On 7/26/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Square foot estimate: > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of 200 > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is over 1$ / > sq > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is one of > the > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but our steel > plate > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and epoxy tar > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. Even still, > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up front savings > to > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly used for > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as insulation? Your > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water line right? > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > Good Luck > Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it sure adds up > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per sq, ft by > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost count. > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads mixed in > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap roller and was > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is about $4 > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when finished, > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean them, that > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to shoot out a > quart and a half of paint. I wish I would have tryed that to start with. > Tom > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from www.wassercoatings.com. > > These are good until January. > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5gal -- Use with Zinc and > > Tar > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without blasting > and > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: martin demers > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition but > > he > > said that is was very superior... > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not much > > for a > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > Martin. > > ________________________________ > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: tazmannm@... > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago I > > paid > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top > side > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> Tom, > > >> > > >> They sell20the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and > they > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 gallons > > for > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > >> > > >> Martin > > >> ________________________________ > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>> From: tazmannm@... > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Martin > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > ufactures > > make > > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I > > used > > >> on > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, > pretty > > >> soft > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under > water > > >> for > > >>> long term, > > >>> Tom > > >>> > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> HI, > > >>>> > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, > > what > > >> I > > >>>> want to know is if > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe > > and > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation > coating > > >> and > > >>>> is different from > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it > > bonds > > >> to > > >>>> steel more than a > > >>>> primer will do. > > >>>> > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > >>>> > > >>>> If someone had use > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > >> about > > >>>> it. > > >>>> > > >>>> Martin. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > >>>> > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >>> > > >> > > > > >>> > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------ > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM�Y�� r%� H��D�si n������ -6 > �O > > Ag} > > ���') > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it t > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17896|17896|2008-07-26 20:00:59|mickeyolaf|Has Anybody ever used "Ultra Bright Aluminum Cleaner?"|It says it removes oxides, grease, etc. I don't want to use it if it's going to screw up my paint job by interfering with the bond of the primer. It's sold by Tenaquip, a company that sells welding supplies.| 17897|17896|2008-07-26 21:56:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: Has Anybody ever used "Ultra Bright Aluminum Cleaner?"|On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 12:00:55AM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > It says it removes oxides, grease, etc. I don't want to use it if it's > going to screw up my paint job by interfering with the bond of the > primer. It's sold by Tenaquip, a company that sells welding supplies. Just my $0.02: I've spent hundreds of dollars over time (possibly into thousands by now; I've been at it for a long time) trying all kinds of "magic potions" for rust, and not a single one of them was ever worth a damn despite the hype. Getting down to good steel and immediately slathering the hell out of it with lots of epoxy - possibly after first a coat of Ospho or Corroseal if you suspect that there's any trace of rust left - is the only thing I know of that works. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17898|17859|2008-07-27 05:35:10|peter_d_wiley|Re: YES OR NO WILL DO|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > Even now, after Hotmail has improved their sign-up process, they (along > with AOL) are still a mark of an ignorant newbie. Not trying to insult > anyone here; that's just how it's seen. Heh. I've had a hotmail account for years. I use it as a spam trap for pretty much anything I do on the net. Every so often I scan it and see if there's a real person who wants to get hold of me. Rarely happens and when it does I give them a real address. I get pretty close to zero spam on my ISP account because it's never been used on any public forum. Never realised it'd be taken as a sign of a clueless newbie. Another thing in its favour for general use IMO. I don't care what people think. AOL - when they first put their gateway to the net, we used to call them Assholes On Line. Lotta fun flamewars 10 odd years back. Usenet isn't what it used to be. BTW anyone got a pdf version of a Yanmar 3QM30H or 2QM20H manual? I picked up an engine for $200 a week or so back, no g/box but I have one off of something else. The engine needs a close inspection (it has compression and turns over, a good start) and a manual would be useful before I start pulling it apart. So would a gasket set but as I'm in Australia I expect I'll have to chase someone locally in the first instance. Got a line on a 2QM15 but it's a little on the small side so I'd rather rebuild the 30HP engine. PDW| 17899|17859|2008-07-27 09:56:47|Ben Okopnik|Re: YES OR NO WILL DO|On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 09:35:08AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > AOL - when they first put their gateway to the net, we used to call > them Assholes On Line. Lotta fun flamewars 10 odd years back. Usenet > isn't what it used to be. Yeah, Usenet is pretty well dead _because_ of AOL (well, a broken set of social expectations - which were abused by AOL.) As the old sysadmins say, "it's always September." http://www.ecademy.com/node.php?id=82228 -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17900|17877|2008-07-27 18:18:13|brentswain38|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Flat bar is nowhere near as stiff as angle, and you would have to go so big, you'd have to pre bend them, to get the same stiffness. T- section may be an option. Most stringers are buried in sprayfoam so shape is not an issue. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Doug > The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. enough to > treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 coats. > Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with condinsation > allso. > www.hytechsales.com > So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in direct > sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white without it, > inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat box > anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am sure its not > as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its good enough > for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. > The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up ready for > paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start painting in > the mornin. > > Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted surface? I > think all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray it > around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and put a > finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off from the > clean blast is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water streakes > comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of angle iron > and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting will get > under there 100% . > Tom > > > > On 7/26/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > > > Square foot estimate: > > > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of 200 > > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is over 1$ / > > sq > > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is one of > > the > > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but our steel > > plate > > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and epoxy tar > > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. Even still, > > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up front savings > > to > > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > > > > > > I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly used for > > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as insulation? Your > > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water line right? > > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > > > Good Luck > > Doug J > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust- anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it sure adds up > > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per sq, ft by > > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost count. > > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads mixed in > > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap roller and was > > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is about $4 > > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when finished, > > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean them, that > > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to shoot out a > > quart and a half of paint. I wish I would have tryed that to start with. > > Tom > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from www.wassercoatings.com. > > > These are good until January. > > > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5gal -- Use with Zinc and > > > Tar > > > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without blasting > > and > > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: martin demers > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition but > > > he > > > said that is was very superior... > > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not much > > > for a > > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > > > Martin. > > > ________________________________ > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: tazmannm@... > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago I > > > paid > > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top > > side > > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Tom, > > > >> > > > >> They sell20the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and > > they > > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 gallons > > > for > > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > > >> > > > >> Martin > > > >> ________________________________ > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>> From: tazmannm@... > > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Martin > > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > > ufactures > > > make > > > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I > > > used > > > >> on > > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, > > pretty > > > >> soft > > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under > > water > > > >> for > > > >>> long term, > > > >>> Tom > > > >>> > > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> HI, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, > > > what > > > >> I > > > >>>> want to know is if > > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe > > > and > > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation > > coating > > > >> and > > > >>>> is different from > > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it > > > bonds > > > >> to > > > >>>> steel more than a > > > >>>> primer will do. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> If someone had use > > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > > >> about > > > >>>> it. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Martin. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > >>>> > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM¢Y¡† r%ˆ HöúD…si n¤¢ Ãß¾Ò -6 > > ºO > > > Ag} > > > ìÁ¼') > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it t > > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17901|17655|2008-07-27 18:20:13|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house|Yes 5052 would work fine Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hey Brent > Would 5052 aluminum work? Its readily available and a whole lot cheaper > around here. > Tom > > > On 7/24/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > 3/16th 5083 would work. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > I was thinking build like normal cabin, bolt sides on and go from > > there > > > with good tacks to hold together, put a few temp cross braces at bottom > > > cabin sides, unbolt and lift off, jig up streight and weld it up. > > just make > > > sure to copensate for thickness of seal, shim the sides out whatever the > > > thickness may be. > > > what grade and thickness of aluminum are you using? > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > On 7/23/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > > > > > interesting idea > > > > i realize he hard part will be getting every thing to line up at > > the end. > > > > > > > > the two ideas I've come up with so far for aluminum pilot house are > > > > > > > > 1 build the cabin in two halves indoors one being the rounded > > front end the > > > > other being the square pilot house > > > > fully weld in place a steel strip on deck, plonk both halves on > > the deck a > > > > few feet apart > > > > then pull the two ends together over the strip using a few come > > along then > > > > weld up on a windless day. > > > > > > > > 2 build the whole cabin top in aluminum indoors then bolt on the steel > > > > strip at this stage.. > > > > plonk the cabin with steel strip attached, tack the strip in place > > pull the > > > > cabin top off > > > > fully weld the steel strip ,place an elastomer seal on the strip, > > plonk > > > > back on the cabin top then bolt. > > > > > > > > there is a crane hire yard just opposite from where I'm building > > my boat. > > > > cheers > > > > shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:34:37 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > > > > > > > Few thoughts on the idea, mabee a more traditional aproach like > > when they > > > > setup for plywood cabin. Instead of stainless that would add > > another metal > > > > in the mix, why not use steel, say 1/4" x 5" or bigger strip > > protrude below > > > > deck level an inch or so, side deck beams cut to fit it at the > > right angle, > > > > fully welded, then blast and paint several coats of epoxy, do the > > same on > > > > inside of aluminum where atached, then all that would have to be > > isolated > > > > is > > > > the bolts and thats easy enough. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/30/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > cheers > > > > > with the advice on aluminum pilot house design > > > > > > > > > > takes a load off my mind > > > > > > > > > > decided to go for a 4mm marine grade aluminum pilot house > > > > > bolted on to a 100mm x 4mm lip 316 stainless > > > > > > > > > > haven't worked out what type of insulator i'm using yet > > > > > > > > > > look forward to some pictures posted on origamiboats of the entire > > > > > operation > > > > > fuc*k ups and all > > > > > > > > > > shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ost pictures on yahoogroups.com > > > > > mistakes and all > > > > > cheers > > > > > shane > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:55:07 AM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > > > > > > > > > How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the > > aluminium from > > > > > the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? It appears that bolt on > > > > > is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in > > > > > stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding " , it`s in the states > > > > > but has > > > > > > some info on the strip. james > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > > > > > > > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and > > low for > > > > a > > > > > > > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops > > here in > > > > > > > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > > > > > > > direct me to it. > > > > > > > Pol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > > > > > > > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, > > so you > > > > weld > > > > > > > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > > > > > > > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've > > talked to some > > > > > > > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the > > > > > source > > > > > > > >right now. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17902|17902|2008-07-28 05:41:06|kellyfreemantle|Freebies 28th July|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the latest freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/?page=7 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17903|17903|2008-07-28 20:22:30|Tom Mann|Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|Hello All Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple weeks ago, well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. what amazes me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting me down. I am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont like Brents origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were doing then why the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment about me actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. Tom A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in the know", Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed smoker, here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the origamiboats group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on my visual inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of his builds & have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an "all-position" stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up or shut up, Brent. For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the origamiboats web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue at hand, was a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex Christie - by Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read Brent's remarks, I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is that Brent did a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and there were few - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been dressed. Alex was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, the boat was mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the hullsides, due to the tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat for at least 2 years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of protection(pictures are available for verification). I felt that the project was worth about $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being generous. The owner of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold it, which I felt was dishonest. Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. The now past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which was advertised for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full price. While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for $100,000, more & less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than $30,0000. This is a very important consideration for the builder, who will eventually wish to sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom have built Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 years. To wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my employment is in the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have worked for other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, and Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My welds are routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started running stick at age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical engineer, but started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as a certifed welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near Vancouver, and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from the age of 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a boilermaker, in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the Philippines, in the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near future, and would not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built to his recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete with you on Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to follow. Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17904|17903|2008-07-28 20:48:54|David Frantz|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|I don't get it myself. Maybe he has something against cheap as on affordable new ships. Mind you I have nothing against well engineered devices as I work with a bunch of them every day. I also work with stuff that is thrown together with nothing more than experience and a tight grip on the seat of one pants. Both can lead to functional machines. I see no reason why one can not build a useful ship on the same way. That is experience and trial and error can lead to a very sea worthy vessel. Further more I suspect that it is safe to say that the vast majority of the boats that have ever left a harbor have done so without a full mechanical engineering study. Frankly it is a good thing these sorts of guys where not around when the Vikings discovered America. They might have said the hell with the adventure. Now all that being said I would not object to a qualified ships engineer reviewing Brents designs. That mostly due to my belief that any thing can be improved and the more eyes the better. It certainly works for open source software. Of course the right attitude is required. What really frustrates me though is that this whole idea of a personally built boat is so far off I don't know if I will ever achieve it. At this point this forum is all acedemic, enjoyable none the less though. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 28, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Tom Mann wrote: > Hello All > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple weeks > ago, > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. what > amazes > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting me > down. I > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont > like Brents > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were doing > then why > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment about > me > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > Tom > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in the > know", > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed > smoker, > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the > origamiboats > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on my > visual > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of his > builds & > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an "all- > position" > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up or > shut up, > Brent. > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > origamiboats > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue at > hand, was > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex Christie - > by > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read Brent's > remarks, > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is that > Brent did > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and there > were few > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been dressed. > Alex > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, the > boat was > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the hullsides, > due to the > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat for at > least 2 > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > protection(pictures > are available for verification). I felt that the project was worth > about > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being generous. > The owner > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold it, > which I > felt was dishonest. > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. The > now > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which was > advertised > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full price. > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for $100,000, > more & > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than $30,0000. > This is > a very important consideration for the builder, who will eventually > wish to > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom have > built > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 > years. To > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > employment is in > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have worked > for > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, and > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My welds are > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started running > stick at > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > engineer, but > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as a > certifed > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near > Vancouver, > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from the > age of > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > boilermaker, > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > Philippines, in > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near future, and > would > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built to his > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete with > you on > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to follow. > Mike > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 17905|17655|2008-07-28 22:39:19|Tom Mann|Re: aluminium pilot house|Shane What or how are you figuring for mast compression bridge, steel with cabin bolted to it or aluminum bridge welded in cabin ? just curious Tom On 7/23/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > interesting idea > i realize he hard part will be getting every thing to line up at the end. > > the two ideas I've come up with so far for aluminum pilot house are > > 1 build the cabin in two halves indoors one being the rounded front end the > other being the square pilot house > fully weld in place a steel strip on deck, plonk both halves on the deck a > few feet apart > then pull the two ends together over the strip using a few come along then > weld up on a windless day. > > 2 build the whole cabin top in aluminum indoors then bolt on the steel > strip at this stage.. > plonk the cabin with steel strip attached, tack the strip in place pull the > cabin top off > fully weld the steel strip ,place an elastomer seal on the strip, plonk > back on the cabin top then bolt. > > there is a crane hire yard just opposite from where I'm building my boat. > cheers > shane > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:34:37 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > Few thoughts on the idea, mabee a more traditional aproach like when they > setup for plywood cabin. Instead of stainless that would add another metal > in the mix, why not use steel, say 1/4" x 5" or bigger strip protrude below > deck level an inch or so, side deck beams cut to fit it at the right angle, > fully welded, then blast and paint several coats of epoxy, do the same on > inside of aluminum where atached, then all that would have to be isolated > is > the bolts and thats easy enough. > Tom > > > On 6/30/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > cheers > > with the advice on aluminum pilot house design > > > > takes a load off my mind > > > > decided to go for a 4mm marine grade aluminum pilot house > > bolted on to a 100mm x 4mm lip 316 stainless > > > > haven't worked out what type of insulator i'm using yet > > > > look forward to some pictures posted on origamiboats of the entire > > operation > > fuc*k ups and all > > > > shane > > > > > > > > ost pictures on yahoogroups.com > > mistakes and all > > cheers > > shane > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:55:07 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > > > How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the aluminium from > > the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? It appears that bolt on > > is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in > > stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > > > I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding " , it`s in the states > > but has > > > some info on the strip. james > > > > > > > > > On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > > > > > > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > > > > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for > a > > > > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in > > > > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > > > > direct me to it. > > > > Pol > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > > > > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you > weld > > > > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > > > > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some > > > > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the > > source > > > > >right now. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17906|17877|2008-07-29 07:39:16|peter_d_wiley|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Sorry but that makes exactly NO sense. You're saying flat bar isn't as stiff as angle. OK if we're talking about the same section depth/thickness as 1 leg of an angle, I'd agree. Then you say that to get the equiv stiffness, you'd have to go so big, you'd need to pre-bend. Sorry, wrong. If the FB is as stiff as the angle (though a bigger size) it'll bend from the same amount of force as the angle will. Equal stiffness, equal resistance to deflection. I could have rigged up a strain gauge and a deflection measurement if I was still in my old job but it's pretty easy to test this for yourself anyway. I wouldn't use angle either because it's a right bastard to paint under. FB is widely used in commercial shipping as a stiffening member. No reason not to use it and a hell of a lot easier for maintenance. Once welded to the shell plate, it acts as a big T anyway. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Flat bar is nowhere near as stiff as angle, and you would have to go > so big, you'd have to pre bend them, to get the same stiffness. T- > section may be an option. Most stringers are buried in sprayfoam so > shape is not an issue. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Doug > > The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. > enough to > > treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 > coats. > > Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with > condinsation > > allso. > > www.hytechsales.com > > So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in > direct > > sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white > without it, > > inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat > box > > anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am > sure its not > > as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its > good enough > > for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. > > The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up > ready for > > paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start > painting in > > the mornin. > > > > Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted > surface? I > > think all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray > it > > around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and > put a > > finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off > from the > > clean blast is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water > streakes > > comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of > angle iron > > and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting > will get > > under there 100% . > > Tom > > > > > > > > On 7/26/08, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Square foot estimate: > > > > > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > > > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > > > > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of > 200 > > > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > > > > > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is > over 1$ / > > > sq > > > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is > one of > > > the > > > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but > our steel > > > plate > > > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and > epoxy tar > > > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. > Even still, > > > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up > front savings > > > to > > > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly > used for > > > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as > insulation? Your > > > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water > line right? > > > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > > > > > Good Luck > > > Doug J > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust- > anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it > sure adds up > > > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per > sq, ft by > > > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost > count. > > > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads > mixed in > > > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap > roller and was > > > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is > about $4 > > > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when > finished, > > > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean > them, that > > > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to > shoot out a > > > quart and a half of paint. I wish I would have tryed that to > start with. > > > Tom > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from > www.wassercoatings.com. > > > > These are good until January. > > > > > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5gal -- Use with Zinc and > > > > Tar > > > > > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without > blasting > > > and > > > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: martin demers > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > > > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the > competition but > > > > he > > > > said that is was very superior... > > > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is > not much > > > > for a > > > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: tazmannm@ > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a > half ago I > > > > paid > > > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 > coats top > > > side > > > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Tom, > > > > >> > > > > >> They sell20the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is > 12kg and > > > they > > > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than > 2 gallons > > > > for > > > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > > > >> > > > > >> Martin > > > > >> ________________________________ > > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>> From: tazmannm@ > > > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > rust-anode > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Martin > > > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > > > ufactures > > > > make > > > > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The > stuff I > > > > used > > > > >> on > > > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish > coat, > > > pretty > > > > >> soft > > > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up > under > > > water > > > > >> for > > > > >>> long term, > > > > >>> Tom > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> HI, > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content > zinc primer, > > > > what > > > > >> I > > > > >>>> want to know is if > > > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made > in Europe > > > > and > > > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold > galvanisation > > > coating > > > > >> and > > > > >>>> is different from > > > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching > because it > > > > bonds > > > > >> to > > > > >>>> steel more than a > > > > >>>> primer will do. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> If someone had use > > > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > > > >> about > > > > >>>> it. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Martin. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > > >> > > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a > new topic > > > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM¢Y¡† r%ˆ HöúD…si n¤¢ > Ãß¾Ò -6 > > > ºO > > > > Ag} > > > > ìÁ¼') > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it t > > > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17907|17907|2008-07-29 10:08:27|jonathanswef|Criticism of origami and personalities|Tom and co, I think you are all heros. I found your picture record, Tom, amongst others, Brent's book and all the old chat on this board inspirational and helpful. Whenever I have posted a question I have had useful replies. If boats have taken years to build it is a reflection of the time and money the builder has had. Origami hulls take less time to build. The rest of the job is just the same. What does that matter? The moral boost of cutting those sheets out and pulling the thing together is without equal in the boat building world. Brent frequently reminds us we don't need to finish the thing to be out there cruising; most of us have limited sailing seasons so we could spend our winters refining our creations. I often look at rich mens boats; they will for me be always out of reach but I can still get out there in a homebuilt vessel with origami. I see no need for anyone to criticise this group or any member of it, especially on a different board. Good luck to us all. Jonathan.| 17908|17855|2008-07-29 10:48:44|Paul Liebenberg|Re: fuel, water, waste deck fills|Hi Jim, might be a bit late, but here is my choice: http://img.skitch.com/20080729-r6myrh1pgmm2m3snk5rg39timn.jpg 2" ss nipple with a bit of pipe welded on the cap. Easy to open and you can lock the caps on with the bar. Paul L ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Ragsdale Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:55 pm Subject: [origamiboats] fuel, water, waste deck fills To: Origamiboats > What does everyone use for their deck fills? Pipe nipple with a > plug or a cap? Is an o-ring type seal better than pipe threads? > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   > origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message > to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17909|17855|2008-07-29 11:28:58|Jim Ragsdale|Re: fuel, water, waste deck fills|That's cool. I ended up going with pipe couplers set flush in the deck with flush brass or plastic plugs. The fuel is aft in the cockpit on a slightly raised boss so it should stay dry. The brass plugs I have now, have a .75" square socket in them that looks like might match to a winch handle. ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Liebenberg To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com; jimragsdale02@... Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 9:47:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] fuel, water, waste deck fills Hi Jim, might be a bit late, but here is my choice: http://img.skitch com/20080729- r6myrh1pgmm2m3sn k5rg39timn. jpg 2" ss nipple with a bit of pipe welded on the cap. Easy to open and you can lock the caps on with the bar. Paul L ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Ragsdale Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:55 pm Subject: [origamiboats] fuel, water, waste deck fills To: Origamiboats > What does everyone use for their deck fills? Pipe nipple with a > plug or a cap? Is an o-ring type seal better than pipe threads? > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@ yahoogroups. comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message > to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17910|17877|2008-07-29 11:39:38|djackson99@aol.com|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Tom Did you put it on yours decks too, or just inside? Thanks Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode Doug The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. enough to treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 coats. Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with condinsation allso. www.hytechsales.com So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in direct sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white without it, inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat box anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am sure its not as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its good enough for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up ready for paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start painting in the mornin. Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted surface? I think all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray it around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and put a finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off from the clean bla st is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water streakes comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of angle iron and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting will get under there 100% . Tom On 7/26/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Square foot estimate: > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of 200 > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is over 1$ / > sq > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is one of > the > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but our steel > plate > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and epoxy tar > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. Even still, > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up front savings > to > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly used for > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as insulation? Your > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water line right? > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > Good Luck > Doug J > www.submarineboat .com > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it sure adds up > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per sq, ft by > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost count. > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads mixed in > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap roller and was > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is about $4 > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when finished, > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean them, that > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to shoot out a > quart and a half of paint. I wish I would have tryed that to start with. > Tom > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from www.wassercoatings.com. > > These are good until January. > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5 gal -- Use with Zinc and > > Tar > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without blasting > and > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: martin demers > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition but > > he > > said that is was very superior... > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not much > > for a > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > Martin. > > ________________________________ > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: tazmannm@... > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago I > > paid > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top > side > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> Tom, > > >> > > >> They sell20the rust- anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and > they > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 gallons > > for > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > >> > > >> Martin > > >> ________________________________ > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>> From: tazmannm@... > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Martin > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > ufactures > > make > > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I > > used > > >> on > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, > pretty > > >> soft > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under > water > > >> for > > >>> long term, > > >>> Tom > > >>> > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> HI, > > >>>> > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc primer, > > what > > >> I > > >>>> want to know is if > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in Europe > > and > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation > coating > > >> and > > >>>> is different from > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it > > bonds > > >> to > > >>>> steel more than a > > >>>> primer will do. > > >>>> > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > >>>> > > >>>> If someone had use > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > >> about > > >>>> it. > > >>>> > > >>>> Martin. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > >>>> > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >>> > > >> > > > > >>> > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------ > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blan k message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM¢Y¡† r%ˆ HöúD…si n¤¢Ãß¾Ò -6 > ºO > > Ag} > > ìÁ¼') > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it t > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17911|17877|2008-07-29 16:33:42|theboilerflue|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|I used the angle to attach my firring strips it would have been a lot more work to weld taps onto each stiffener every sixteen inches if they had been flatbar. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Sorry but that makes exactly NO sense. > > You're saying flat bar isn't as stiff as angle. OK if we're talking > about the same section depth/thickness as 1 leg of an angle, I'd agree. > > Then you say that to get the equiv stiffness, you'd have to go so big, > you'd need to pre-bend. Sorry, wrong. If the FB is as stiff as the > angle (though a bigger size) it'll bend from the same amount of force > as the angle will. Equal stiffness, equal resistance to deflection. I > could have rigged up a strain gauge and a deflection measurement if I > was still in my old job but it's pretty easy to test this for yourself > anyway. > > I wouldn't use angle either because it's a right bastard to paint > under. FB is widely used in commercial shipping as a stiffening > member. No reason not to use it and a hell of a lot easier for > maintenance. Once welded to the shell plate, it acts as a big T anyway. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Flat bar is nowhere near as stiff as angle, and you would have to go > > so big, you'd have to pre bend them, to get the same stiffness. T- > > section may be an option. Most stringers are buried in sprayfoam so > > shape is not an issue. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Doug > > > The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. > > enough to > > > treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 > > coats. > > > Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with > > condinsation > > > allso. > > > www.hytechsales.com > > > So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in > > direct > > > sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white > > without it, > > > inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat > > box > > > anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am > > sure its not > > > as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its > > good enough > > > for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. > > > The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up > > ready for > > > paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start > > painting in > > > the mornin. > > > > > > Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted > > surface? I > > > think all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray > > it > > > around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and > > put a > > > finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off > > from the > > > clean blast is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water > > streakes > > > comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of > > angle iron > > > and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting > > will get > > > under there 100% . > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/26/08, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Square foot estimate: > > > > > > > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > > > > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > > > > > > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of > > 200 > > > > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > > > > > > > > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is > > over 1$ / > > > > sq > > > > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is > > one of > > > > the > > > > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but > > our steel > > > > plate > > > > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and > > epoxy tar > > > > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. > > Even still, > > > > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up > > front savings > > > > to > > > > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly > > used for > > > > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as > > insulation? Your > > > > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water > > line right? > > > > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > > > > > > > Good Luck > > > > Doug J > > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust- > > anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it > > sure adds up > > > > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per > > sq, ft by > > > > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost > > count. > > > > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads > > mixed in > > > > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap > > roller and was > > > > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is > > about $4 > > > > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when > > finished, > > > > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean > > them, that > > > > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to > > shoot out a > > > > quart and a half of paint. I wish I would have tryed that to > > start with. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from > > www.wassercoatings.com. > > > > > These are good until January. > > > > > > > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > > > > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > > > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > > > > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5gal -- Use with Zinc and > > > > > Tar > > > > > > > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without > > blasting > > > > and > > > > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: martin demers > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > > > > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the > > competition but > > > > > he > > > > > said that is was very superior... > > > > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is > > not much > > > > > for a > > > > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: tazmannm@ > > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a > > half ago I > > > > > paid > > > > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 > > coats top > > > > side > > > > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Tom, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> They sell20the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is > > 12kg and > > > > they > > > > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > > > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than > > 2 gallons > > > > > for > > > > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Martin > > > > > >> ________________________________ > > > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>> From: tazmannm@ > > > > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > rust-anode > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Martin > > > > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > > > > ufactures > > > > > make > > > > > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The > > stuff I > > > > > used > > > > > >> on > > > > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish > > coat, > > > > pretty > > > > > >> soft > > > > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up > > under > > > > water > > > > > >> for > > > > > >>> long term, > > > > > >>> Tom > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> HI, > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content > > zinc primer, > > > > > what > > > > > >> I > > > > > >>>> want to know is if > > > > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > > > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made > > in Europe > > > > > and > > > > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > > > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold > > galvanisation > > > > coating > > > > > >> and > > > > > >>>> is different from > > > > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching > > because it > > > > > bonds > > > > > >> to > > > > > >>>> steel more than a > > > > > >>>> primer will do. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> If someone had use > > > > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > > > > >> about > > > > > >>>> it. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Martin. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a > > new topic > > > > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM¢Y¡† r%ˆ HöúD…si n¤¢ > > Ãß¾Ò -6 > > > > ºO > > > > > Ag} > > > > > ìÁ¼') > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it t > > > > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 17912|17877|2008-07-29 18:18:08|Tom Mann|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Hello Doug Yes 2 coats on the whole inside and 2 coat on the whole outside above water line. I still have one more coat to go on the topsides. I bought enough to treat 5 gallons thinking that would be plenty but looks like I may need a little more, still have 4 hatches to paint 2 coats on. To help you figure how much paint,on the 26 from toerail to cabon top takes 3/4 gallon for one complete coat and thats not counting railing, the sides and transom from water line to toe rail takes 1-1/2 quarts. I have 11 gallons on sofar and figuring another 4 gallons to finish. I must be a slow painter Saturday cleaned up topsides and got ready for paint Sunday at 6:30 am started mixing and at noon I had one complete coat on the topsides using 4" roller and 2-1/2" brush, did 3 mixes of 1 quart because of the 2 hour pot life and with a 1/2 hour induction time takes a while. With one quart of epoxy you actualy have a quart and a half by the time you add beads and reducer. Tom On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:39 AM, wrote: > > Tom > > Did you put it on yours decks too, or just inside? > > Thanks > Doug J > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 2:30 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. enough to > treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 coats. > Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with condinsation > allso. > www.hytechsales.com > So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in direct > sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white without > it, > inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat box > anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am sure its > not > as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its good > enough > for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. > The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up ready for > paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start painting in > the mornin. > > Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted surface? I > think all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray it > around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and put a > finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off from the > clean bla > st is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water streakes > comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of angle iron > and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting will get > under there 100% . > Tom > > > > On 7/26/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > > > Square foot estimate: > > > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of 200 > > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is over 1$ > / > > sq > > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is one of > > the > > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but our steel > > plate > > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and epoxy tar > > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. Even > still, > > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up front > savings > > to > > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > > > > > > I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly used for > > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as insulation? Your > > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water line > right? > > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > > > Good Luck > > Doug J > > www.submarineboat > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it sure adds > up > > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per sq, ft > by > > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost count. > > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads mixed in > > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap roller and > was > > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is about $4 > > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when finished, > > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean them, that > > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to shoot out a > > quart and a half of paint. I wish I would have tryed that to start with. > > Tom > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from www.wassercoatings.com. > > > These are good until January. > > > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5 > gal -- Use with Zinc and > > > Tar > > > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without blasting > > and > > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: martin demers > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition > but > > > he > > > said that is was very superior... > > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not > much > > > for a > > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > > > Martin. > > > ________________________________ > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: tazmannm@... > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago I > > > paid > > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top > > side > > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Tom, > > > >> > > > >> They sell20the rust- > anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and > > they > > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 > gallons > > > for > > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > > >> > > > >> Martin > > > >> ________________________________ > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>> From: tazmannm@... > > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > rust-anode > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Martin > > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > > ufactures > > > make > > > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I > > > used > > > >> on > > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, > > pretty > > > >> soft > > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under > > water > > > >> for > > > >>> long term, > > > >>> Tom > > > >>> > > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> HI, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc > primer, > > > what > > > >> I > > > >>>> want to know is if > > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in > Europe > > > and > > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation > > coating > > > >> and > > > > >>>> is different from > > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it > > > bonds > > > >> to > > > >>>> steel more than a > > > >>>> primer will do. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> If someone had use > > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > > >> about > > > >>>> it. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Martin. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > >>>> > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blan > k message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM�Y�� r%� H��D�si n������ -6 > > �O > > > Ag} > > > ���') > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it t > > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To > Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17913|17877|2008-07-29 18:30:16|Tom Mann|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Yep angle is a lot better for that but just to attach bulkheads and stuff here and there wouldn't make much difference, could be notched and welded directly on top or tabbed and bolted through sides On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:33 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > I used the angle to attach my firring strips it would have been a lot > more work to weld taps onto each stiffener every sixteen inches if > they had been flatbar. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > Sorry but that makes exactly NO sense. > > > > You're saying flat bar isn't as stiff as angle. OK if we're talking > > about the same section depth/thickness as 1 leg of an angle, I'd agree. > > > > Then you say that to get the equiv stiffness, you'd have to go so big, > > you'd need to pre-bend. Sorry, wrong. If the FB is as stiff as the > > angle (though a bigger size) it'll bend from the same amount of force > > as the angle will. Equal stiffness, equal resistance to deflection. I > > could have rigged up a strain gauge and a deflection measurement if I > > was still in my old job but it's pretty easy to test this for yourself > > anyway. > > > > I wouldn't use angle either because it's a right bastard to paint > > under. FB is widely used in commercial shipping as a stiffening > > member. No reason not to use it and a hell of a lot easier for > > maintenance. Once welded to the shell plate, it acts as a big T anyway. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Flat bar is nowhere near as stiff as angle, and you would have to go > > > so big, you'd have to pre bend them, to get the same stiffness. T- > > > section may be an option. Most stringers are buried in sprayfoam so > > > shape is not an issue. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. > > > enough to > > > > treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 > > > coats. > > > > Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with > > > condinsation > > > > allso. > > > > www.hytechsales.com > > > > So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in > > > direct > > > > sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white > > > without it, > > > > inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat > > > box > > > > anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am > > > sure its not > > > > as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its > > > good enough > > > > for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. > > > > The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up > > > ready for > > > > paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start > > > painting in > > > > the mornin. > > > > > > > > Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted > > > surface? I > > > > think all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray > > > it > > > > around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and > > > put a > > > > finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off > > > from the > > > > clean blast is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water > > > streakes > > > > comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of > > > angle iron > > > > and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting > > > will get > > > > under there 100% . > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/26/08, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Square foot estimate: > > > > > > > > > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > > > > > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > > > > > > > > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of > > > 200 > > > > > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is > > > over 1$ / > > > > > sq > > > > > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is > > > one of > > > > > the > > > > > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but > > > our steel > > > > > plate > > > > > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and > > > epoxy tar > > > > > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. > > > Even still, > > > > > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up > > > front savings > > > > > to > > > > > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly > > > used for > > > > > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as > > > insulation? Your > > > > > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water > > > line right? > > > > > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > > > > > > > > > Good Luck > > > > > Doug J > > > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust- > > > anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it > > > sure adds up > > > > > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per > > > sq, ft by > > > > > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost > > > count. > > > > > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads > > > mixed in > > > > > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap > > > roller and was > > > > > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is > > > about $4 > > > > > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when > > > finished, > > > > > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean > > > them, that > > > > > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to > > > shoot out a > > > > > quart and a half of paint. I wish I would have tryed that to > > > start with. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from > > > www.wassercoatings.com. > > > > > > These are good until January. > > > > > > > > > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > > > > > > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > > > > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > > > > > > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5gal -- Use with Zinc and > > > > > > Tar > > > > > > > > > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without > > > blasting > > > > > and > > > > > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: martin demers > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > > > > > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the > > > competition but > > > > > > he > > > > > > said that is was very superior... > > > > > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is > > > not much > > > > > > for a > > > > > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > From: tazmannm@ > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > > rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a > > > half ago I > > > > > > paid > > > > > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > > > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 > > > coats top > > > > > side > > > > > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Tom, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> They sell20the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is > > > 12kg and > > > > > they > > > > > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > > > > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than > > > 2 gallons > > > > > > for > > > > > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Martin > > > > > > >> ________________________________ > > > > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > >>> From: tazmannm@ > > > > > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > > rust-anode > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Martin > > > > > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > > > > > ufactures > > > > > > make > > > > > > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The > > > stuff I > > > > > > used > > > > > > >> on > > > > > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish > > > coat, > > > > > pretty > > > > > > >> soft > > > > > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up > > > under > > > > > water > > > > > > >> for > > > > > > >>> long term, > > > > > > >>> Tom > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> HI, > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content > > > zinc primer, > > > > > > what > > > > > > >> I > > > > > > >>>> want to know is if > > > > > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > > > > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made > > > in Europe > > > > > > and > > > > > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > > > > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold > > > galvanisation > > > > > coating > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > >>>> is different from > > > > > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching > > > because it > > > > > > bonds > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > >>>> steel more than a > > > > > > >>>> primer will do. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> If someone had use > > > > > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > > > > > >> about > > > > > > >>>> it. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Martin. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a > > > new topic > > > > > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > > > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM�Y�� r%� H��D�si n�� > > > ���� -6 > > > > > �O > > > > > > Ag} > > > > > > ���') > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it t > > > > > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17914|17877|2008-07-30 11:58:13|djackson99@aol.com|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Thanks Tom.  It will be interesting to know how it wears on the deck. I wonder if you could collect styrene foam from discarded packing material then run it through a wood chipper before mixing it with a cheap latex paint pouring it down between the hull and a 1/2 layer of insulation foam board. Just thinking aloud. --Doug J www.submarineboat.com -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode Hello Doug Yes 2 coats on the whole inside and 2 coat on the whole outside above water line. I still have one more coat to go on the topsides. I bought enough to treat 5 gallons thinking that would be plenty but looks like I may need a little more, still have 4 hatches to paint 2 coats on. To help you figure how much paint,on the 26 from toerail to cabon top takes 3/4 gallon for one complete coat and thats not counting railing, the sides and transom from water line to toe rail takes 1-1/2 quarts. I have 11 gallons on sofar and figuring another 4 gallons to finish. I must be a slow painter Saturday cleaned up topsides and got ready for paint Sunday at 6:30 am started mixing and at noon I had one complete coat on the topsides using 4" roller and 2-1/2" brush, did 3 mixes of 1 quart because of the 2 hour pot life and with a 1/2 hour induction time takes a while. With one quart of epoxy you actualy=2 0have a quart and a half by the time you add beads and reducer. Tom On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:39 AM, wrote: > > Tom > > Did you put it on yours decks too, or just inside? > > Thanks > Doug J > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 2:30 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. enough to > treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 coats. > Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with condinsation > allso. > www.hytechsales.com > So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in direct > sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white without > it, > inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat box > anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am sure its > not > as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its good > enough > for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. > The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up ready for > paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start painting in > the mornin. > > Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted surface? I > think all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray it > around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and put a > finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off from the > clean bla > st is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water streakes > comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of angle iron > and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting will get > under there 100% . > Tom > > > > On 7/26/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > > > Square foot estimate: > > > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of 200 > > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is over 1$ > / > > sq > > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is one of > > the > > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but our steel > > plate > > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and epoxy tar > > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. Even > still, > > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up front > savings > > to > > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > > > > >=2 0> I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly used for > > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as insulation? Your > > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water line > right? > > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > > > Good Luck > > Doug J > > www.submarineboat > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it sure adds > up > > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per sq, ft > by > > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost count. > > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads mixed in > > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap roller and > was > > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is about $4 > > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when finished, > > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean them, that > > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to shoot out a > > quart and a half of paint. I wish20I would have tryed that to start with. > > Tom > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from www.wassercoatings.com. > > > These are good until January. > > > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5 > gal -- Use with Zinc and > > > Tar > > > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without blasting > > and > > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: martin demers > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition > but > > > he > > > said that is was very superior... > > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not > much > > > for a > > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > > > Martin. > > > ________________________________ > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: tazmannm@... > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago I > > > paid > > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top > > side > > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Tom, > > > >> > > > >> They sell20the rust- > anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and > > they > > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 > gallons > > > for > > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > > >> > > > >> Martin > > > >> ________________________________ > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>> From: tazmannm@... > > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > rust-anode > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Martin > > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > > ufactures > > > make > > > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The stuff I > > > used > > > >> on > > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, > > pretty > > > >> soft > > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under > > water > > > >> for > > > >>> long term, > > > >>> Tom > > > >>> > > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> HI, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc > primer, > > > what > > > >> I > > > >>>> want to know is if > > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in > Europe > > > and > > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation > > coating > > > >> and > > > > >>>> is different from > > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because it > > > bonds > > > >> to > > > >>>> steel more than a > > > >>>> primer will do. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> If someone had use > > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > > >> about > > > >>>> it. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Martin. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > >>>> > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blan > k message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM¢Y¡† r%ˆ HöúD…si n¤¢Ãß¾Ò -6 > > ºO > > > Ag} > > > ìÁ¼') > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >20> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it t > > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To > Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ----------- ------------------------- > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17915|17915|2008-07-31 05:55:38|alison.moorby|Latest Freebies (30th July)|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the latest freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/?page=8 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17916|17916|2008-07-31 11:36:03|Shane Duncan|Re: Single keel position BS31|can any one tell me the position of the single keel w.r.t the bow or mast on the BrentSwain31   is it the same as the twin keel i.e. leading edge 5 inches behind the mast step viewed side on?   have my father staying with me for a week and want to get it pulled in while he is here   cheers shane [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17917|17655|2008-07-31 11:47:07|Shane Duncan|Re: aluminium pilot house|Tom i will probably go with a  25mm plat aluminum arch mast support welded into the aluminum cabin, as per normal   this will then be supported by two 50mm SCH 40 steel pipe as per the plans   weld some steel brackets to the steel pipe then bolt on the aluminum mast support   cheers shane     ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:39:17 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house Shane What or how are you figuring for mast compression bridge, steel with cabin bolted to it or aluminum bridge welded in cabin ? just curious Tom On 7/23/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > interesting idea > i realize  he hard part will be getting every thing to line up at the end. > > the two ideas I've come up with so far for aluminum pilot house are > > 1 build the cabin in two halves indoors one being the rounded front end the > other being the square pilot house > fully weld in place a steel strip on deck, plonk both halves on the deck a > few feet apart > then pull the two ends together over the strip using a few come along then > weld up on a windless day. > > 2 build the whole cabin top in aluminum indoors then bolt on the steel > strip at this stage.. > plonk the cabin with steel strip attached, tack the strip in place pull the > cabin top off > fully weld the steel strip ,place an elastomer seal on the strip, plonk > back on the cabin top then bolt. > > there is a crane hire yard just opposite from where I'm building my boat. > cheers > shane > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:34:37 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > Few thoughts on the idea, mabee a more traditional aproach like when they > setup for plywood cabin. Instead of stainless that would add another metal > in the mix, why not use steel, say 1/4" x 5" or bigger strip protrude below > deck level an inch or so, side deck beams cut to fit it at the right angle, > fully welded, then blast and paint several coats of epoxy, do the same on > inside of aluminum where atached, then all that would have to be isolated > is > the bolts and thats easy enough. > Tom > > > On 6/30/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > cheers > > with the advice on aluminum pilot house design > > > > takes a load off my mind > > > > decided to go for a 4mm marine grade aluminum pilot house > > bolted on to a 100mm x 4mm  lip 316 stainless > > > > haven't worked out what type of insulator i'm using yet > > > > look forward to some pictures posted on origamiboats of the entire > > operation > > fuc*k ups and all > > > > shane > > > > > > > >  ost pictures on yahoogroups.com > > mistakes and all > > cheers > > shane > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:55:07 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > > > How good are those strips at electricaly insulating the aluminium from > > the steel, and thus preventing electrolysis? It appears that bolt on > > is the only way to accomplish that. I'd go for a vertical flange in > > stainless to bolt the aluminium wheelhouse on, for new boats. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > > > I found www.pacaero.com "explosion welding "  , it`s in the states > > but has > > > some info on the strip.  james > > > > > > > > > On 6/24/08, polaris041 wrote: > > > > > > > > Ben, if you have any luck in remembering or finding a source for > > > > this product, please post about it. I have searched high and low for > a > > > > reference to it, even asked at many metal fabrication shops here in > > > > Australia. Although some say they have "heard" of it, no one can > > > > direct me to it. > > > > Pol > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > you can weld it down with a bimetallic strip that some guy in > > > > >Australia invented: it's explosion-welded steel/aluminum, so you > weld > > > > >the right material to each side and you're done - no galvanic > > > > >corrosion. I heard about it a few years ago, and I've talked to some > > > > >people who have used it, but I'm feeling to lazy to look up the > > source > > > > >right now. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17918|17918|2008-07-31 12:35:36|avedelmar|40´ Brent Swain Design|Is there anyone who is building, or has built a 40´Swain boat that has some pictures of the hull to share? Luis| 17919|17916|2008-07-31 18:47:41|Tom Mann|Re: Single keel position BS31|Hello Shane Not sure if same or not, the 26 Twin Keels 4" behind mast and the single keel plan that Brent sent me shows leading edge even with mast, mine is even with center of mast viewed from side. Tom On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 8:36 AM, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > can any one tell me the position of the single keel > w.r.t the bow or mast on the BrentSwain31 > > is it the same as the twin keel > i.e. leading edge 5 inches behind the mast step viewed side on? > > have my father staying with me for a week > and want to get it pulled in while he is here > > cheers > shane > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17920|17877|2008-08-01 09:04:15|Tom Mann|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Doug I dont think it will make much of a differance for wear, the beads are very small more like a fine powder, pluss figure 1 coat zinc primer, 1 coat epoxy, 2 coats epoxy with beads,then 1 coat epoxy on top. It would take a while to wear through that. Tom On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 8:57 AM, wrote: > Thanks Tom. It will be interesting to know how it wears on the deck. > > I wonder if you could collect styrene foam from discarded packing material > then run it through a wood chipper before mixing it with a cheap latex paint > pouring it down between the hull and a 1/2 layer of insulation foam board. > > Just thinking aloud. > > --Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 5:18 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Doug > Yes 2 coats on the whole inside and 2 coat on the whole outside above > water > line. I still have one more coat to go on the topsides. I bought enough to > treat 5 gallons thinking that would be plenty but looks like I may need a > little more, still have 4 hatches to paint 2 coats on. > To help you figure how much paint,on the 26 from toerail to cabon top > takes > 3/4 gallon for one complete coat and thats not counting railing, the sides > and transom from water line to toe rail takes 1-1/2 quarts. I have 11 > gallons on sofar and figuring another 4 gallons to finish. > I must be a slow painter Saturday cleaned up topsides and got ready for > paint Sunday at 6:30 am started mixing and at noon I had one complete coat > on the topsides using 4" roller and 2-1/2" brush, did 3 mixes of 1 quart > because of the 2 hour pot life and with a 1/2 hour induction time takes a > while. With one quart of epoxy you actualy=2 > 0have a quart and a half by the > time you add beads and reducer. > Tom > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:39 AM, wrote: > > > > > Tom > > > > Did you put it on yours decks too, or just inside? > > > > Thanks > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 2:30 pm > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. enough to > > treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 > coats. > > Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with condinsation > > allso. > > www.hytechsales.com > > So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in direct > > sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white without > > it, > > inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat box > > anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am sure its > > not > > as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its good > > enough > > for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. > > The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up ready > for > > paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start painting > in > > the mornin. > > > > Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted surface? I > > think > all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray it > > around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and put a > > finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off from > the > > clean bla > > st is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water streakes > > comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of angle > iron > > and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting will > get > > under there 100% . > > Tom > > > > > > > > On 7/26/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > > > > > > Square foot estimate: > > > > > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > > > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > > > > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of 200 > > > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > > > > > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is over > 1$ > > / > > > sq > > > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is one > of > > > the > > > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but our > steel > > > plate > > > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and epoxy tar > > > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. Even > > still, > > > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up front > > savings > > > to > > > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=2 > 0> I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly used for > > > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as insulation? > Your > > > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water line > > right? > > > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > > > > > Good Luck > > > Doug J > > > www.submarineboat > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it sure adds > > up > > > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per sq, > ft > > by > > > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost count. > > > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads mixed > in > > > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap roller and > > was > > > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is about > $4 > > > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when finished, > > > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean them, > that > > > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to shoot out > a > > > quart and a half of paint. I wish20I would have tryed that to start > with. > > > Tom > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from www.wassercoatings.com. > > > > These are good until January. > > > > > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5 > > gal -- Use with Zinc and > > > > Tar > > > > > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without > blasting > > > and > > > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: martin demers > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > > > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition > > but > > > > he > > > > said that is was very superior... > > > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not > > much > > > > for a > > > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: tazmannm@... > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago > I > > > > paid > > > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top > > > side > > > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Tom, > > > > >> > > > > >> They sell20the rust- > > anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and > > > they > > > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 > > gallons > > > > for > > > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > > > >> > > > > >> Martin > > > > >> ________________________________ > > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>> From: tazmannm@... > > > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > rust-anode > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Martin > > > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > > > ufactures > > > > make > > > > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder > in it, The stuff I > > > > used > > > > >> on > > > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, > > > pretty > > > > >> soft > > > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under > > > water > > > > >> for > > > > >>> long term, > > > > >>> Tom > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> HI, > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc > > primer, > > > > what > > > > >> I > > > > >>>> want to know is if > > > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in > > Europe > > > > and > > > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation > > > coating > > > > >> and > > > > > > >>>> is different from > > > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because > it > > > > bonds > > > > >> to > > > > >>>> steel more than a > > > > >>>> primer will do. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> If someone had use > > > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > > > >> about > > > > >>>> it. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Martin. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>> > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > > >> > > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new > topic > > > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blan > > k message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM�Y�� r%� H��D�si n������ > -6 > > > �O > > > > Ag} > > > > ���') > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >20> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it t > > > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To > > Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ----------- > ------------------------- > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17921|17877|2008-08-01 09:16:56|djackson99@aol.com|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Oh, I though it would improve the durability.  How is it for non-skid?  --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 8:04 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode Doug I dont think it will make much of a differance for wear, the beads are very small more like a fine powder, pluss figure 1 coat zinc primer, 1 coat epoxy, 2 coats epoxy with beads,then 1 coat epoxy on top. It would take a while to wear through that. Tom On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 8:57 AM, wrote: > Thanks Tom. It will be interesting to know how it wears on the deck. > > I wonder if you could collect styrene foam from discarded packing material > then run it through a wood chipper before mixing it with a cheap latex paint > pouring it down between the hull and a 1/2 layer of insulation foam board. > > Just thinking aloud. > > --Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 5:18 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Doug > Yes 2 coats on the whole inside and 2 coat on the whole outside above > water > line. I still have one more coat to go on the topsides. I bought enough to > treat 5 gallons thinking that would be plenty but looks like I20may need a > little more, still have 4 hatches to paint 2 coats on. > To help you figure how much paint,on the 26 from toerail to cabon top > takes > 3/4 gallon for one complete coat and thats not counting railing, the sides > and transom from water line to toe rail takes 1-1/2 quarts. I have 11 > gallons on sofar and figuring another 4 gallons to finish. > I must be a slow painter Saturday cleaned up topsides and got ready for > paint Sunday at 6:30 am started mixing and at noon I had one complete coat > on the topsides using 4" roller and 2-1/2" brush, did 3 mixes of 1 quart > because of the 2 hour pot life and with a 1/2 hour induction time takes a > while. With one quart of epoxy you actualy=2 > 0have a quart and a half by the > time you add beads and reducer. > Tom > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:39 AM, wrote: > > > > > Tom > > > > Did you put it on yours decks too, or just inside? > > > > Thanks > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 2:30 pm > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. enough to > > treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 > coats. > > Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with condinsation > > allso. > > www.hytechsales.com > > So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in direct > > sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white without > > it, > > inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat box > > anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am sure its > > not > > as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its good > > enough > > for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. > > The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up ready > for > > paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start painting > in > > the mornin. > > > > Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted surface? I > > think > all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray it > > around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and put a > > finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off from > the > > clean bla > > st is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water streakes > > comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of angle > iron > > and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting will > get > > under there 100% . > > Tom > > > > > > > > On 7/26/08, djackson99@aol.c om wrote: > > > > > > > > > Square foot estimate: > > > > > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > > > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > > > > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of 200 > > > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > > > > > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is over > 1$ > > / > > > sq > > > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is one > of > > > the > > > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but our > steel > > > plate > > > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and epoxy tar > > > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. Even > > still, > > > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up front > > savings > > > to > > > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=2 > 0> I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly used for > > > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as insulation? > Your > > > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water line > > right? > > > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > > > > > Good Luck > > > Doug J > > > www.submarineboat > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it sure adds > > up > > > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per sq, > ft > > by > > > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost count. > > > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads mixed > in > > > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap roller and > > was > > > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is about > $4 > > > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when finished, > > > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean them, > that > > > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to shoot out > a > > > quart and a half of paint. I wish20I would have tryed that to start > with. > > > Tom > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from www.wassercoatings.com. > > > > These are good until January. > > >=2 0> > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5 > > gal -- Use with Zinc and > > > > Tar > > > > > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without > blasting > > > and > > > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: martin demers > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > > > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition > > but > > > > he > > > > said that is was very superior... > > > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not > > much > > > > for a > > > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: tazmannm@gmail.c om > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago > I > > > > paid > > > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top > > > side > > > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Tom, > > > > >> > > > > >> They sell20the rust- > > anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and > > > they > > > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 > > gallons > > > > for > > > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > > > >> > > > > >> Martin > > > > >> ________________________________ > > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>> From: tazmannm@... > > > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > rust-anode > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Martin > > > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > > > ufactures > > > > make > > > > >>> it, most is epoxy based20with lots of zinc powder > in it, The stuff I > > > > used > > > > >> on > > > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, > > > pretty > > > > >> soft > > > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under > > > water > > > > >> for > > > > >>> long term, > > > > >>> Tom > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> HI, > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc > > primer, > > > > what > > > > >> I > > > > >>>> want to know is if > > > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in > > Europe > > > > and > > > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation > > > coating > > > > >> and > > > > > > >>>> is different from > > > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because > it > > > > bonds > > > > >> to > > > > >>>> steel more than a > > > > >>>> primer will do. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> If someone had use > > > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > > > >> about > > > > >>>> it. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Martin. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>> > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > > >> > > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new > topic > > > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blan > > k message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM¢Y † r%ˆ HöúD…si n¤¢Ãß¾Ò > -6 > > > ºO > > > > Ag} > > > > ìÁ¼') > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >20> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it t > > > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscrib e, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To > > Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ----------- > ------------------------- > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, se nd a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17922|17877|2008-08-01 17:59:58|Tom Mann|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|Doug for non-skid I think its pretty good, lot rougher than I figured it would be, I tryed to get it smoother but could'nt, thats why I switched to rolling it on. Put it this way where I sprayed a couple coats on, If you try to wash the surface with cloth rag it shreds the rag, bout the same as 180 or 220 grit sand paper. rolled surface is not as rough more of an orange peel Tom On 8/1/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Oh, I though it would improve the durability. How is it for > non-skid? --Doug > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 8:04 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > I dont think it will make much of a differance for wear, the beads are very > small more like a fine powder, pluss figure 1 coat zinc primer, 1 coat > epoxy, 2 coats epoxy with beads,then 1 coat epoxy on top. It would take a > while to wear through that. > Tom > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 8:57 AM, wrote: > > > Thanks Tom. It will be interesting to know how it wears on the deck. > > > > I wonder if you could collect styrene foam from discarded packing > material > > then run it through a wood chipper before mixing it with a cheap latex > paint > > pouring it down between the hull and a 1/2 layer of insulation foam > board. > > > > Just thinking aloud. > > > > --Doug J > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 5:18 pm > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Doug > > Yes 2 coats on the whole inside and 2 coat on the whole outside above > > water > > line. I still have one more coat to go on the topsides. I bought enough > to > > treat 5 gallons thinking that would be plenty but looks like I20may need > a > > little more, still have 4 hatches to paint 2 coats on. > > To help you figure how much paint,on the 26 from toerail to cabon top > > takes > > 3/4 gallon for one complete coat and thats not counting railing, the > sides > > and transom from water line to toe rail takes 1-1/2 quarts. I have 11 > > gallons on sofar and figuring another 4 gallons to finish. > > I must be a slow painter Saturday cleaned up topsides and got ready for > > paint Sunday at 6:30 am started mixing and at noon I had one complete > coat > > on the topsides using 4" roller and 2-1/2" brush, did 3 mixes of 1 quart > > because of the 2 hour pot life and with a 1/2 hour induction time takes a > > while. With one quart of epoxy you actualy=2 > > 0have a quart and a half by the > > time you add beads and reducer. > > Tom > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:39 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > Did you put it on yours decks too, or just inside? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 2:30 pm > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. enough > to > > > treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 > > coats. > > > > Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with condinsation > > > allso. > > > www.hytechsales.com > > > So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in > direct > > > sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white > without > > > it, > > > inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat box > > > anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am sure > its > > > not > > > as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its good > > > enough > > > for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. > > > The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up ready > > for > > > paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start painting > > in > > > the mornin. > > > > > > Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted > surface? I > > > think > > all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray it > > > around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and put a > > > finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off from > > the > > > clean bla > > > st is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water streakes > > > comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of angle > > iron > > > and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting will > > get > > > under there 100% . > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/26/08, djackson99@aol.c > om wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Square foot estimate: > > > > > > > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > > > > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > > > > > > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of 200 > > > > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > > > > > > > > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is over > > 1$ > > > / > > > > sq > > > > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is one > > of > > > > the > > > > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but our > > steel > > > > plate > > > > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and epoxy > tar > > > > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. Even > > > still, > > > > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up front > > > savings > > > > to > > > > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=2 > > 0> I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly used > for > > > > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as insulation? > > Your > > > > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water line > > > right? > > > > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > > > > > > > Good Luck > > > > Doug J > > > > www.submarineboat > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it sure > adds > > > up > > > > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per sq, > > ft > > > by > > > > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost > count. > > > > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads > mixed > > in > > > > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap roller > and > > > was > > > > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is > about > > $4 > > > > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when finished, > > > > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean them, > > that > > > > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to shoot > out > > a > > > > quart and a half of paint. I wish20I would have tryed that to start > > with. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from > www.wassercoatings.com. > > > > > These are good until January. > > > >=2 > 0> > > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > > > > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > > > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > > > > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5 > > > gal -- Use with Zinc and > > > > > Tar > > > > > > > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without > > blasting > > > > and > > > > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: martin demers > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > > > > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the > competition > > > but > > > > > he > > > > > said that is was very superior... > > > > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not > > > much > > > > > for a > > > > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: tazmannm@gmail.c > om > > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half > ago > > I > > > > > paid > > > > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats > top > > > > side > > > > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Tom, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> They sell20the rust- > > > anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and > > > > they > > > > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > > > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 > > > gallons > > > > > for > > > > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Martin > > > > > >> ________________________________ > > > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>> From: tazmannm@... > > > > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > > rust-anode > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Martin > > > > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > > > > ufactures > > > > > make > > > > > >>> it, most is epoxy based20with lots of zinc powder > > in it, The stuff I > > > > > used > > > > > >> on > > > > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, > > > > pretty > > > > > >> soft > > > > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up > under > > > > water > > > > > >> for > > > > > >>> long term, > > > > > >>> Tom > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> HI, > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc > > > primer, > > > > > what > > > > > >> I > > > > > >>>> want to know is if > > > > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > > > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in > > > Europe > > > > > and > > > > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > > > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation > > > > coating > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > > >>>> is different from > > > > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching > because > > it > > > > > bonds > > > > > >> to > > > > > >>>> steel more than a > > > > > >>>> primer will do. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> If someone had use > > > > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > > > > >> about > > > > > >>>> it. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Martin. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>> > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new > > topic > > > > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blan > > > k message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM�Y > � r%� H��D�si n������ > > -6 > > > > �O > > > > > Ag} > > > > > ���') > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >20> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it t > > > > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscrib > e, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To > > > Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ----------- > > ------------------------- > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, se > nd a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17923|17785|2008-08-01 18:18:57|theboilerflue|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|hey tom i know you not using a coal tar but did you mix the beads into the primer as well or into the outerlayer? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello All > I mixed up a quart of epoxy and mixed in 8 oz of ceramic beads, thinned > about 30% and it shoots fine from HVLP gun, shot it on pretty heavy, the mix > didnt quite finish inside of trunk cabin. Leaves a tectured finsh. It did > dull the white a little bit and I was hoping it would have dulled it more. > This is going to be the finish on inside. I may do the top sides the same, > It will give a bit more insulation and a somewhat non slip finish. From what > I was reading on it the ceramic beads allso help with uv on the paint so > maybe the epoxy will hold up better and not chalk as bad. > Time will tell > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17924|17785|2008-08-01 20:26:03|Tom Mann|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|No I didnt put it in the zinc primer,dont know if that would work or not. The epoxy I am using is the base and finish coat. Did 1 coat epoxy,then 2 coats epoxy mixed with beads then 1 finish coat of epoxy this is on the top sides and inside. the outside of hull so far has 4 coats epoxy and the sides above water line has 2 additional coats mixed with beads plus 1 coat over that still going to wet sand the out side of hull 1 more time then 1 more coat on sides and a couple more on bottom. Dont know how well the beads would hold up under water so I opted not to use it there. I didnt put it in the first coat of epoxy because I figured a thinned coat of epoxy only would seap into the nooks and crannies a little better. Tom On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:18 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > hey tom i know you not using a coal tar but did you mix the beads into > the primer as well or into the outerlayer? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Hello All > > I mixed up a quart of epoxy and mixed in 8 oz of ceramic beads, thinned > > about 30% and it shoots fine from HVLP gun, shot it on pretty heavy, > the mix > > didnt quite finish inside of trunk cabin. Leaves a tectured finsh. > It did > > dull the white a little bit and I was hoping it would have dulled it > more. > > This is going to be the finish on inside. I may do the top sides the > same, > > It will give a bit more insulation and a somewhat non slip finish. > From what > > I was reading on it the ceramic beads allso help with uv on the paint so > > maybe the epoxy will hold up better and not chalk as bad. > > Time will tell > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17925|17907|2008-08-01 22:25:42|Tom Mann|Re: Criticism of origami and personalities|Well I wouldnt say were heros, just took the plunge. I like this site too, if you looking for info or ideas its the place to ask and most are willing to help. This guy Mike has a seriouse problem, He thinks because he has a ticket his opinion is what counts and the rest of us are full of it he is like a spoiled kid, whine , cry and criticise till he gets his way . He dont relize some of us here have tickets too we just dont bring it up at every discussion to try to make our opinion worth more nor do we bring up my grampa this my dad this I mean what the hack that got to do with what type rod or wire I am using. I would like to here from him the home built boats that sank because of inferior welds down the centerline,any? He allso mentioned on one thread that he left the origamiboats group because he got tired of argeuing over welding proccedures, well mabee if he stated his opinion and left it alone there would not have been a probem but when he pushes his opinion down your throat and wont quit then its a problem. There are several ways to weld the boat together, to say one is better then the other is hog wash, depends on where and what equipment you have or is available. Sorry to ramble a bit but as you can tell this guy Mike got on my nerves a bit with the name calling and such. One other thing, he claims flux core wire welds have 5 time the strength as stick welds, wonder where he came up with that. I have used both, I need proof, wire is faster thats it. Tom On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 7:08 AM, jonathanswef < jonathanstevens@...> wrote: > Tom and co, > I think you are all heros. I found your picture record, Tom, amongst > others, Brent's book and all the old chat on this board inspirational > and helpful. Whenever I have posted a question I have had useful > replies. If boats have taken years to build it is a reflection of the > time and money the builder has had. Origami hulls take less time to > build. The rest of the job is just the same. What does that matter? > The moral boost of cutting those sheets out and pulling the thing > together is without equal in the boat building world. Brent frequently > reminds us we don't need to finish the thing to be out there cruising; > most of us have limited sailing seasons so we could spend our winters > refining our creations. I often look at rich mens boats; they will for > me be always out of reach but I can still get out there in a homebuilt > vessel with origami. > I see no need for anyone to criticise this group or any member of it, > especially on a different board. > Good luck to us all. > Jonathan. > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17926|17785|2008-08-03 11:59:17|Carl Volkwein|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|Tom,     How would that work for non skid on the decks? --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Tom Mann wrote: From: Tom Mann Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:26 PM No I didnt put it in the zinc primer,dont know if that would work or not. The epoxy I am using is the base and finish coat. Did 1 coat epoxy,then 2 coats epoxy mixed with beads then 1 finish coat of epoxy this is on the top sides and inside. the outside of hull so far has 4 coats epoxy and the sides above water line has 2 additional coats mixed with beads plus 1 coat over that still going to wet sand the out side of hull 1 more time then 1 more coat on sides and a couple more on bottom. Dont know how well the beads would hold up under water so I opted not to use it there. I didnt put it in the first coat of epoxy because I figured a thinned coat of epoxy only would seap into the nooks and crannies a little better. Tom On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:18 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > hey tom i know you not using a coal tar but did you mix the beads into > the primer as well or into the outerlayer? > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Hello All > > I mixed up a quart of epoxy and mixed in 8 oz of ceramic beads, thinned > > about 30% and it shoots fine from HVLP gun, shot it on pretty heavy, > the mix > > didnt quite finish inside of trunk cabin. Leaves a tectured finsh. > It did > > dull the white a little bit and I was hoping it would have dulled it > more. > > This is going to be the finish on inside. I may do the top sides the > same, > > It will give a bit more insulation and a somewhat non slip finish. > From what > > I was reading on it the ceramic beads allso help with uv on the paint so > > maybe the epoxy will hold up better and not chalk as bad. > > Time will tell > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17927|17785|2008-08-03 12:18:58|Tom Mann|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|Hello Carl I just finished washing the top sides with TSP in prep for more coats, walking around on it with the soapy water on it doesnt feel slippery at all, rolled finish with simular finish to orange peel. The Farmer just finnished chopping the corn around the house and disking, sure made a mess of the boat. Tom On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Tom, > How would that work for non skid on the decks? > > --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Tom Mann wrote: > From: Tom Mann > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:26 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > No I didnt put it in the zinc primer,dont know if that would > work or not. > > The epoxy I am using is the base and finish coat. Did 1 coat epoxy,then 2 > > coats epoxy mixed with beads then 1 finish coat of epoxy this is on the top > > sides and inside. the outside of hull so far has 4 coats epoxy and the > sides > > above water line has 2 additional coats mixed with beads plus 1 coat over > > that still going to wet sand the out side of hull 1 more time then 1 more > > coat on sides and a couple more on bottom. Dont know how well the beads > > would hold up under water so I opted not to use it there. I didnt put it in > > the first coat of epoxy because I figured a thinned coat of epoxy only > would > > seap into the nooks and crannies a little better. > > Tom > > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:18 PM, theboilerflue > wrote: > > > > > hey tom i know you not using a coal tar but did you mix the beads into > > > the primer as well or into the outerlayer? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > I mixed up a quart of epoxy and mixed in 8 oz of ceramic beads, > thinned > > > > about 30% and it shoots fine from HVLP gun, shot it on pretty heavy, > > > the mix > > > > didnt quite finish inside of trunk cabin. Leaves a tectured finsh. > > > It did > > > > dull the white a little bit and I was hoping it would have dulled it > > > more. > > > > This is going to be the finish on inside. I may do the top sides the > > > same, > > > > It will give a bit more insulation and a somewhat non slip finish. > > > From what > > > > I was reading on it the ceramic beads allso help with uv on the paint > so > > > > maybe the epoxy will hold up better and not chalk as bad. > > > > Time will tell > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17928|17785|2008-08-03 13:00:09|zeeeks_2005|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|Tom, can you tell any difference in temperature so far? I've got a sample from Mascoat, which I believe is a waterbased acrylic binder with ceramic in it. Would be cool to find something a little cheaper that does the same insulating job. Thanks for sharing your experimenting! Zach --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello Carl > I just finished washing the top sides with TSP in prep for more coats, > walking around on it with the soapy water on it doesnt feel slippery at all, > rolled finish with simular finish to orange peel. > The Farmer just finnished chopping the corn around the house and disking, > sure made a mess of the boat. > Tom > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > > Tom, > > How would that work for non skid on the decks? > > > > --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Tom Mann wrote: > > From: Tom Mann > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:26 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No I didnt put it in the zinc primer,dont know if that would > > work or not. > > > > The epoxy I am using is the base and finish coat. Did 1 coat epoxy,then 2 > > > > coats epoxy mixed with beads then 1 finish coat of epoxy this is on the top > > > > sides and inside. the outside of hull so far has 4 coats epoxy and the > > sides > > > > above water line has 2 additional coats mixed with beads plus 1 coat over > > > > that still going to wet sand the out side of hull 1 more time then 1 more > > > > coat on sides and a couple more on bottom. Dont know how well the beads > > > > would hold up under water so I opted not to use it there. I didnt put it in > > > > the first coat of epoxy because I figured a thinned coat of epoxy only > > would > > > > seap into the nooks and crannies a little better. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:18 PM, theboilerflue > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > hey tom i know you not using a coal tar but did you mix the beads into > > > > > the primer as well or into the outerlayer? > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > I mixed up a quart of epoxy and mixed in 8 oz of ceramic beads, > > thinned > > > > > > about 30% and it shoots fine from HVLP gun, shot it on pretty heavy, > > > > > the mix > > > > > > didnt quite finish inside of trunk cabin. Leaves a tectured finsh. > > > > > It did > > > > > > dull the white a little bit and I was hoping it would have dulled it > > > > > more. > > > > > > This is going to be the finish on inside. I may do the top sides the > > > > > same, > > > > > > It will give a bit more insulation and a somewhat non slip finish. > > > > > From what > > > > > > I was reading on it the ceramic beads allso help with uv on the paint > > so > > > > > > maybe the epoxy will hold up better and not chalk as bad. > > > > > > Time will tell > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17929|17929|2008-08-03 13:09:36|gundoc7519|any thoughts on old school paints (Red lead primer+oil based top coa|As way of introduction I am retired from the USN where I had the pleasure of setting foot in 68 countries and did get the see the world part. I washed ashore here in the high plains of Montana and my feet are getting itchy again. The kids are grown up and moved out and I have the wife on board with the lets build a boat and do some traveling plan. I was a Chief Gunners Mate for 11 of my 20 years so I am handy with mechanical, electrical and electronic systems. I learned to stick weld at my fathers knee so I have that going for me, he was a welder in the ship yards during world war two and showed me the basics gave me pile of scrap metal and set me to welding and would come out and couch me. I like steel for safety durability ect and was looking at the old school frame and plate method when I came on the origami method its brilliant. I will have about 18,000 dollars a year (retirement income) to build and then sail the boat and am looking at getting away in about four years. Sooner if I can talk the wife in to selling her business ect sooner but we agreed on four year deadline. Sorry for the long intro but my question is I was reading the post about paints and never saw anything about the old school paints I have been in ships voids ect that were painted 40 years ago with red lead primer and haze gray or machinery gray and were still in good shape. Is there still a place for them or have epoxies replaced them? Also a while before I got out (10 years ago) they were starting to use rust converter then paint over any ideas on the durability of that? Anyone use Rust Bullet saw it on the internet and wondered if anyone had any opinions about it? I am doing the research phase now and firing up my excel spread sheet to figure out total cost so I am sure I will have more questions in the future. Thanks for the help Don Hayes| 17930|17929|2008-08-03 16:24:00|Tom Mann|Re: any thoughts on old school paints (Red lead primer+oil based top|Hello and Welcome Don The good old red primer that had lead in it is history now days because of the lead. The epoxies seem to hold up a lot better and cost wise probably not much more expinsive in the long run. Rust bullet, well I was going to try it out on the inside but chicknd out and sandblasted instead. I think If one could not sandblast it might be an alternative. I have never tryed rust converters but most that say they have say it didnt hold up very long and the rust came back. Lot of info on that just surch the net a bit. Tom On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 10:09 AM, gundoc7519 wrote: > As way of introduction I am retired from the USN where I had the > pleasure of setting foot in 68 countries and did get the see the world > part. I washed ashore here in the high plains of Montana and my feet > are getting itchy again. The kids are grown up and moved out and I > have the wife on board with the lets build a boat and do some > traveling plan. > I was a Chief Gunners Mate for 11 of my 20 years so I am handy with > mechanical, electrical and electronic systems. I learned to stick > weld at my fathers knee so I have that going for me, he was a welder > in the ship yards during world war two and showed me the basics gave > me pile of scrap metal and set me to welding and would come out and > couch me. > I like steel for safety durability ect and was looking at the old > school frame and plate method when I came on the origami method its > brilliant. > I will have about 18,000 dollars a year (retirement income) to build > and then sail the boat and am looking at getting away in about four > years. Sooner if I can talk the wife in to selling her business ect > sooner but we agreed on four year deadline. > Sorry for the long intro but my question is I was reading the > post about paints and never saw anything about the old school paints I > have been in ships voids ect that were painted 40 years ago with red > lead primer and haze gray or machinery gray and were still in good shape. > Is there still a place for them or have epoxies replaced them? Also a > while before I got out (10 years ago) they were starting to use rust > converter then paint over any ideas on the durability of that? Anyone > use Rust Bullet saw it on the internet and wondered if anyone had any > opinions about it? > I am doing the research phase now and firing up my excel spread > sheet to figure out total cost so I am sure I will have more questions > in the future. > > Thanks for the help > > Don Hayes > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17931|17785|2008-08-03 16:47:47|Tom Mann|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|Zach Little early to tell for sure but the surface is cooler to the touch in the direct sun, when I am working inside now it seems to be the outside ambiant temp inside instead of an oven. Hatches and windows are still off the boat. Just got finished putting the second coat with the beads on the top sides. If anyone is wondering why I dont like painting, I started out painting in the back worked into the cockpit,one side of back cabin painted moved to other side and here comes a swarm on little black bugs and bingo about 20 of em embeded in cabin back, cant do much with them till paint cures so I kept going, mixed up more paint and get finnished up, every thing lookin good except where the bugs are, climb down off the boat and cleaning up and here comes a dust twister right up over the top of boat, didnt even look at it came back in the house . I was planning on putting finnish coat on a 4:00, not now. Tom On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 10:00 AM, zeeeks_2005 wrote: > Tom, can you tell any difference in temperature so far? > > I've got a sample from Mascoat, which I believe is a waterbased > acrylic binder with ceramic in it. Would be cool to find something a > little cheaper that does the same insulating job. > > Thanks for sharing your experimenting! > > Zach > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Hello Carl > > I just finished washing the top sides with TSP in prep for more coats, > > walking around on it with the soapy water on it doesnt feel slippery > at all, > > rolled finish with simular finish to orange peel. > > The Farmer just finnished chopping the corn around the house and > disking, > > sure made a mess of the boat. > > Tom > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > > > > Tom, > > > How would that work for non skid on the decks? > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Tom Mann wrote: > > > From: Tom Mann > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:26 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No I didnt put it in the zinc primer,dont know if that > would > > > work or not. > > > > > > The epoxy I am using is the base and finish coat. Did 1 coat > epoxy,then 2 > > > > > > coats epoxy mixed with beads then 1 finish coat of epoxy this is > on the top > > > > > > sides and inside. the outside of hull so far has 4 coats epoxy and the > > > sides > > > > > > above water line has 2 additional coats mixed with beads plus 1 > coat over > > > > > > that still going to wet sand the out side of hull 1 more time then > 1 more > > > > > > coat on sides and a couple more on bottom. Dont know how well the > beads > > > > > > would hold up under water so I opted not to use it there. I didnt > put it in > > > > > > the first coat of epoxy because I figured a thinned coat of epoxy only > > > would > > > > > > seap into the nooks and crannies a little better. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:18 PM, theboilerflue > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > hey tom i know you not using a coal tar but did you mix the > beads into > > > > > > > the primer as well or into the outerlayer? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mann" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > > > I mixed up a quart of epoxy and mixed in 8 oz of ceramic beads, > > > thinned > > > > > > > > about 30% and it shoots fine from HVLP gun, shot it on pretty > heavy, > > > > > > > the mix > > > > > > > > didnt quite finish inside of trunk cabin. Leaves a tectured finsh. > > > > > > > It did > > > > > > > > dull the white a little bit and I was hoping it would have > dulled it > > > > > > > more. > > > > > > > > This is going to be the finish on inside. I may do the top > sides the > > > > > > > same, > > > > > > > > It will give a bit more insulation and a somewhat non slip finish. > > > > > > > From what > > > > > > > > I was reading on it the ceramic beads allso help with uv on > the paint > > > so > > > > > > > > maybe the epoxy will hold up better and not chalk as bad. > > > > > > > > Time will tell > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17932|17785|2008-08-03 16:54:09|Paul Wilson|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|If you are thinking about deck paint... I just painted the floor of my aluminum dinghy with the "No-Slip" deck paint and will probably doing my decks next summer when the gales stop. It was very easy to put on (water based) and seems to be tough as hell. It's sold by Benjamin Moore in NZ as well as the chandleries or sold as KiwiGrip in North America...check out www.pachena.com. Check out the old posting for more info as well. I have to say I am really impressed with this paint. You can make the profile of it as rough as you want. I have seen several boats with it now and everyone I have met who have used it, swear by it. I have tried various particles mixed with epoxy, Epsom salt finishes, as well as conventional sun deck coatings and think this is much better, in my opinion. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Volkwein Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 3:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive Tom, How would that work for non skid on the decks? --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Tom Mann > wrote: From: Tom Mann > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:26 PM No I didnt put it in the zinc primer,dont know if that would work or not. The epoxy I am using is the base and finish coat. Did 1 coat epoxy,then 2 coats epoxy mixed with beads then 1 finish coat of epoxy this is on the top sides and inside. the outside of hull so far has 4 coats epoxy and the sides above water line has 2 additional coats mixed with beads plus 1 coat over that still going to wet sand the out side of hull 1 more time then 1 more coat on sides and a couple more on bottom. Dont know how well the beads would hold up under water so I opted not to use it there. I didnt put it in the first coat of epoxy because I figured a thinned coat of epoxy only would seap into the nooks and crannies a little better. Tom On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:18 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > hey tom i know you not using a coal tar but did you mix the beads into > the primer as well or into the outerlayer? > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Hello All > > I mixed up a quart of epoxy and mixed in 8 oz of ceramic beads, thinned > > about 30% and it shoots fine from HVLP gun, shot it on pretty heavy, > the mix > > didnt quite finish inside of trunk cabin. Leaves a tectured finsh. > It did > > dull the white a little bit and I was hoping it would have dulled it > more. > > This is going to be the finish on inside. I may do the top sides the > same, > > It will give a bit more insulation and a somewhat non slip finish. > From what > > I was reading on it the ceramic beads allso help with uv on the paint so > > maybe the epoxy will hold up better and not chalk as bad. > > Time will tell > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1589 - Release Date: 8/3/2008 1:00 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17933|17785|2008-08-03 20:24:10|A BOUCHER|Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive|I agree about Kiwigrip even one of my more inept customers got very good results doing it himself. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 4:53 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive If you are thinking about deck paint... I just painted the floor of my aluminum dinghy with the "No-Slip" deck paint and will probably doing my decks next summer when the gales stop. It was very easy to put on (water based) and seems to be tough as hell. It's sold by Benjamin Moore in NZ as well as the chandleries or sold as KiwiGrip in North America...check out www.pachena.com. Check out the old posting for more info as well. I have to say I am really impressed with this paint. You can make the profile of it as rough as you want. I have seen several boats with it now and everyone I have met who have used it, swear by it. I have tried various particles mixed with epoxy, Epsom salt finishes, as well as conventional sun deck coatings and think this is much better, in my opinion. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Volkwein Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 3:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive Tom, How would that work for non skid on the decks? --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Tom Mann > wrote: From: Tom Mann > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating additive To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:26 PM No I didnt put it in the zinc primer,dont know if that would work or not. The epoxy I am using is the base and finish coat. Did 1 coat epoxy,then 2 coats epoxy mixed with beads then 1 finish coat of epoxy this is on the top sides and inside. the outside of hull so far has 4 coats epoxy and the sides above water line has 2 additional coats mixed with beads plus 1 coat over that still going to wet sand the out side of hull 1 more time then 1 more coat on sides and a couple more on bottom. Dont know how well the beads would hold up under water so I opted not to use it there. I didnt put it in the first coat of epoxy because I figured a thinned coat of epoxy only would seap into the nooks and crannies a little better. Tom On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:18 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > hey tom i know you not using a coal tar but did you mix the beads into > the primer as well or into the outerlayer? > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Hello All > > I mixed up a quart of epoxy and mixed in 8 oz of ceramic beads, thinned > > about 30% and it shoots fine from HVLP gun, shot it on pretty heavy, > the mix > > didnt quite finish inside of trunk cabin. Leaves a tectured finsh. > It did > > dull the white a little bit and I was hoping it would have dulled it > more. > > This is going to be the finish on inside. I may do the top sides the > same, > > It will give a bit more insulation and a somewhat non slip finish. > From what > > I was reading on it the ceramic beads allso help with uv on the paint so > > maybe the epoxy will hold up better and not chalk as bad. > > Time will tell > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1589 - Release Date: 8/3/2008 1:00 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17934|17934|2008-08-04 05:47:53|delia.turnbull|Freebies 4th August|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to a web page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/?page=9 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17935|17935|2008-08-04 15:02:28|roundtheglobe|hull development / conversion how to ?|Hi, I just got into boatbuilding and got really intrigued by the origami method of construction. I am reading the yago 31 manual which was interesting and free :) I wonder why not using a jig of some sort to easy the set up/weld procedure which looks a little cumbersome compared to the elegant concept. How do I develop my own hull ? Is the silas crosby plan or any other available anywhere ..?| 17936|17936|2008-08-04 15:28:38|mickeyolaf|Split Lead vs Icom Masthead Whip|I've installed a 36" Shakespeare VHF Antenna at the top of the mast and now am looking which way to go for the SSB. Icom has a 8' whip (AH-2b) which is light and masthead mountable. Gam has a split lead backstay antenna that doesn't require backstay cutting and insulators. Anybody have any experience with these products and know which would be better for range and clarity and service life?| 17937|17935|2008-08-04 17:35:47|Aaron Williams|Re: hull development / conversion how to ?|Brent has the plans his address is in the file section --- On Mon, 8/4/08, roundtheglobe wrote: From: roundtheglobe Subject: [origamiboats] hull development / conversion how to ? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 11:02 AM Hi, I just got into boatbuilding and got really intrigued by the origami method of construction. I am reading the yago 31 manual which was interesting and free :) I wonder why not using a jig of some sort to easy the set up/weld procedure which looks a little cumbersome compared to the elegant concept. How do I develop my own hull ? Is the silas crosby plan or any other available anywhere ..? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17938|17935|2008-08-04 18:57:29|James Pronk|Re: hull development / conversion how to ?|You should order Brent's book and Alex Christie's video "Origamiboats" The Art of Steel Boatbuilding. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "roundtheglobe" wrote: > > Hi, > I just got into boatbuilding and got really intrigued by the origami > method of construction. > I am reading the yago 31 manual which was interesting and free :) > I wonder why not using a jig of some sort to easy the set up/weld > procedure which looks a little cumbersome compared to the elegant concept. > How do I develop my own hull ? > Is the silas crosby plan or any other available anywhere ..? > | 17939|17939|2008-08-04 20:35:47|gundoc7519|Tools????|I figured I would get more tools always a good thing while I am waiting to get started on the boat. I have access to a plasma cutter I can use, any recommendations for welders? I learned how to stick weld in my youth but have never mig or tig welded. I was going to buy a oxy/acytelene torch. What do you recommend for grinders needle gun ect. I have all the basic wood working tools but need most metal fabrication tools. How many come alongs and chain falls do I need I am assuming 1 ton will work? I have hydraulic jacks. Basically what would be a good shopping list for tools to get started? Thanks for the help as always Don| 17940|17935|2008-08-04 21:41:28|Gary H. Lucas|Re: hull development / conversion how to ?|You are kind of missing the philosophy here grasshopper. Why put time or effort into something you will never use again, and won't take with you? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "roundtheglobe" To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] hull development / conversion how to ? Hi, I just got into boatbuilding and got really intrigued by the origami method of construction. I am reading the yago 31 manual which was interesting and free :) I wonder why not using a jig of some sort to easy the set up/weld procedure which looks a little cumbersome compared to the elegant concept. How do I develop my own hull ? Is the silas crosby plan or any other available anywhere ..? | 17941|17941|2008-08-05 02:07:32|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Urgently Required For Electrical Chief Engineer (211382)|We are PT. MBP Skill Indonesia, a National Company focusing on HR. Services, principally Consulting, Contracting, Training and Administration. We are currently inviting qualified Engineer for our Client to fill the position of (MBP 211382) Electrical Chief Engineer Position The key duties and responsibilities of this position are : Engineers normally perform dual functions namely projects coordination function (Project Engineer) and design function (Design Engineer) to perform design work within Project Engineer's design team. This dual functions provides more flexibility and efficiency in allocating engineer recources. The key challenges in this position include : 1. To Monitor the developing electrical engineering design work which performed by design engineer starting from a very few information from client to a final detail engineering design in a very short time. This accountability requires in-depth and broad engineering knowledge, and also strong communication and project management skills. 2. To operate with minimum manpower and time. This accountability requires in-depth and broad knowledge in engineering and strong managerial skill. 3. To operate with obsolete catalog and software. This accountability requires in-depth and broad knowledge in engineering and material. 4. To handle many different kind of works. This accountability requires in-depth and broad knowledge in engineering and strong managerial skill. The background, education, and work experience needed to succeed in this job are : 1. S1 degree in electrical engineering. 2. Minimum 10 years experiences in heavy industries, oil & gas, and mine business. Experience in MCC, switchgears, PLC, power distribution system, motors, batteries, raceway, HV transmission system, SCADA system, grounding, lighting, lightning, catodic protection & conveyor system (material handling). 3. Having good knowledge in safety procedure is a must. Good command in English both oral and written, able to operate computer in general application. Core Competencies (Knowledge, Skills & Characters) 1. Analytical skill. 2. Managerial and supervisory skills. 3. Project management skill. 4. Knowledge of the field (practical knowledge). 5. Electrical engineering knowledge, including power generation, electrical code, and control & instrument. 6. Communication, human relation, and interpersonal skills. 7. Computer skill, especially knowledge in AutoCAD and Microsoft Office. 8. English (TOEFL 500). An attractive remuneration package commensurate with experiences and qualifications will be offered to the qualified candidate Only qualified candidate should apply, please send your applications with CV and recent photograph to: resumes@...| 17942|17935|2008-08-05 02:11:35|mauro gonzaga|Re: hull development / conversion how to ?|I come to the beautiful yago. I made a model 10:1 using cardboard. Her lines look very beautiful. I am missing of all other information. However from the designe I worked on to establish her displacement of 6115 Kg and a block coeff. of 0.55. Very good. Sail area also is perfect. I have one big concern: BALLAST. I love the idea of the two dagger keels, but this means I shoud keep all ballast inside of the hull. With the hull in aluminum there is weight available for a 3000 Kg ballast, which seem to be the minimum to have a safe righting arm. I am curious to know how to work with steel, more economical and easy to build. It was promised the design, to be paid, of a slightly bigger sister boat of yago 31. Is the design available yet? --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] hull development / conversion how to ? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 3:41 AM You are kind of missing the philosophy here grasshopper. Why put time or effort into something you will never use again, and won't take with you? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "roundtheglobe" To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] hull development / conversion how to ? Hi, I just got into boatbuilding and got really intrigued by the origami method of construction. I am reading the yago 31 manual which was interesting and free :) I wonder why not using a jig of some sort to easy the set up/weld procedure which looks a little cumbersome compared to the elegant concept. How do I develop my own hull ? Is the silas crosby plan or any other available anywhere ..? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17943|17935|2008-08-05 02:22:24|mauro gonzaga|Re: hull development / conversion how to ?|I see the pictures of the Brent Swain boats, easyer to built tha yago, but yago is much more appealing althoug wit one more seam per side. Nice holidys to everybody. Mauro --- On Tue, 8/5/08, mauro gonzaga wrote: From: mauro gonzaga Subject: Re: [origamiboats] hull development / conversion how to ? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 8:11 AM I come to the beautiful yago. I made a model 10:1 using cardboard. Her lines look very beautiful. I am missing of all other information. However from the designe I worked on to establish her displacement of 6115 Kg and a block coeff. of 0.55. Very good. Sail area also is perfect. I have one big concern: BALLAST. I love the idea of the two dagger keels, but this means I shoud keep all ballast inside of the hull. With the hull in aluminum there is weight available for a 3000 Kg ballast, which seem to be the minimum to have a safe righting arm. I am curious to know how to work with steel, more economical and easy to build. It was promised the design, to be paid, of a slightly bigger sister boat of yago 31. Is the design available yet? --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] hull development / conversion how to ? To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 3:41 AM You are kind of missing the philosophy here grasshopper. Why put time or effort into something you will never use again, and won't take with you? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "roundtheglobe" To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] hull development / conversion how to ? Hi, I just got into boatbuilding and got really intrigued by the origami method of construction. I am reading the yago 31 manual which was interesting and free :) I wonder why not using a jig of some sort to easy the set up/weld procedure which looks a little cumbersome compared to the elegant concept. How do I develop my own hull ? Is the silas crosby plan or any other available anywhere ..? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17944|17944|2008-08-05 11:15:32|Tom Mann|cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|Hello All Few Ideas have my hamster spnning the wheel. Thinking it would be nice to have easy accesable storage from cockpit without adding more holes in the boat for things like spare anchors,line, life jackets and such. First make foot well as big as the whole cockpit area say on mi 26 front would be 5' and the back 4-1/2' wide by about 12" deep, fitted to transom with 3 large drains through transom, then outer combings atached to outer edges of well with a lip turned inwards. weld tabs on where needed to atach seat backs,tops. and fronts and build them out of plywood, keep edges of plywood 1/2 " from steel sides and bottom for drainage and airflow. Bingo nice big storage compartments under seats with no holes to inside of boat. Then to take the idea 1 step farther for safety and confort. I have read about quite a few that have problems with leakey stuffing boxes, smells from engine then why not make that seperate from the rest of boat allso, basacly run the footwell sides all the way to bottom of boat fitted and welded to hull same with front of well then if you ran a V drive setup the engine and all would fit nicley under cockpit and be sealed from rest of boat put a nice aluminum hatch above engine built simular to the way the capanion way hatch is built, big enough to climb in and out for maint and putting the engine in or out would be a lot simpler. vents could be run streight up under combings. No fumes or leaks from engine can get to living quarters and the boat wont sink if stuffing box starts leaking. Any other thoughts on the idea ? good-bad [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17945|17939|2008-08-05 15:39:51|theboilerflue|Re: Tools????|for grinders i made use of a 7 inch and a 4.5 inch two is nice so that you don't have too switch between cutting disks and grinders all the time and the 7" is nice for all the big grinding jobs and you can always use the 7" disks on the 4.5 when they're ground down. If you're going to buy new ones i would get ones that are pretty cheap and you'll be able to return once you break them after your done your boat and get something else. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gundoc7519" wrote: > > I figured I would get more tools always a good thing while I am > waiting to get started on the boat. I have access to a plasma cutter > I can use, any recommendations for welders? I learned how to stick > weld in my youth but have never mig or tig welded. I was going to buy > a oxy/acytelene torch. What do you recommend for grinders needle gun ect. > I have all the basic wood working tools but need most metal > fabrication tools. How many come alongs and chain falls do I need I > am assuming 1 ton will work? I have hydraulic jacks. > Basically what would be a good shopping list for tools to get started? > > Thanks for the help as always > > Don > | 17946|17918|2008-08-05 19:53:35|Gordon Schnell|Re: 40´ Brent Swain Design|Luis What kind of things are you looking for in the 40' Swain hull pics? Gord avedelmar wrote: > > Is there anyone who is building, or has built a 40´Swain boat that has > some pictures of the hull to share? > > Luis > > | 17947|17944|2008-08-05 20:18:34|Gary H. Lucas|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|Tom, I can't for the life of me figure out why someone building a boat out of steel would want to bolt WOOD onto it! My fiberglass Etap 26 has plywood seats in the cockpit. They have to be replaced every couple of years. What a pain in the ass. Weld it all up in steel. Every time you make a joint between two dissimilar materials you create nothing but a huge maintenance problem. The steel will rust where the wood touches it and the wood will rot from all the edges you can't possibly seal up tight. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Mann" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:15 AM Subject: [origamiboats] cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment" > Hello All > Few Ideas have my hamster spnning the wheel. > Thinking it would be nice to have easy accesable storage from cockpit > without adding more holes in the boat for things like spare anchors,line, > life jackets and such. First make foot well as big as the whole cockpit > area > say on mi 26 front would be 5' and the back 4-1/2' wide by about 12" deep, > fitted to transom with 3 large drains through transom, then outer combings > atached to outer edges of well with a lip turned inwards. weld tabs on > where > needed to atach seat backs,tops. and fronts and build them out of plywood, > keep edges of plywood 1/2 " from steel sides and bottom for drainage and > airflow. Bingo nice big storage compartments under seats with no holes to > inside of boat. > Then to take the idea 1 step farther for safety and confort. I have read > about quite a few that have problems with leakey stuffing boxes, smells > from > engine then why not make that seperate from the rest of boat allso, > basacly > run the footwell sides all the way to bottom of boat fitted and welded to > hull same with front of well then if you ran a V drive setup the engine > and > all would fit nicley under cockpit and be sealed from rest of boat put a > nice aluminum hatch above engine built simular to the way the capanion way > hatch is built, big enough to climb in and out for maint and putting the > engine in or out would be a lot simpler. vents could be run streight up > under combings. No fumes or leaks from engine can get to living quarters > and > the boat wont sink if stuffing box starts leaking. > Any other thoughts on the idea ? good-bad > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 17948|17944|2008-08-05 22:06:37|Tom Mann|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|I was thinking wood because of weight savings. Lite cloth and epoxy resin then painted,the plywood panels would still cause the steel tabs to rust? On 8/5/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > Tom, > I can't for the life of me figure out why someone building a boat out of > steel would want to bolt WOOD onto it! My fiberglass Etap 26 has plywood > seats in the cockpit. They have to be replaced every couple of years. What > a pain in the ass. Weld it all up in steel. Every time you make a joint > between two dissimilar materials you create nothing but a huge maintenance > problem. The steel will rust where the wood touches it and the wood will > rot from all the edges you can't possibly seal up tight. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Mann" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:15 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment" > > > > Hello All > > Few Ideas have my hamster spnning the wheel. > > Thinking it would be nice to have easy accesable storage from cockpit > > without adding more holes in the boat for things like spare anchors,line, > > life jackets and such. First make foot well as big as the whole cockpit > > area > > say on mi 26 front would be 5' and the back 4-1/2' wide by about 12" > deep, > > fitted to transom with 3 large drains through transom, then outer > combings > > atached to outer edges of well with a lip turned inwards. weld tabs on > > where > > needed to atach seat backs,tops. and fronts and build them out of > plywood, > > keep edges of plywood 1/2 " from steel sides and bottom for drainage and > > airflow. Bingo nice big storage compartments under seats with no holes to > > inside of boat. > > Then to take the idea 1 step farther for safety and confort. I have read > > about quite a few that have problems with leakey stuffing boxes, smells > > from > > engine then why not make that seperate from the rest of boat allso, > > basacly > > run the footwell sides all the way to bottom of boat fitted and welded to > > hull same with front of well then if you ran a V drive setup the engine > > and > > all would fit nicley under cockpit and be sealed from rest of boat put a > > nice aluminum hatch above engine built simular to the way the capanion > way > > hatch is built, big enough to climb in and out for maint and putting the > > engine in or out would be a lot simpler. vents could be run streight up > > under combings. No fumes or leaks from engine can get to living quarters > > and > > the boat wont sink if stuffing box starts leaking. > > Any other thoughts on the idea ? good-bad > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17949|17949|2008-08-05 22:21:04|gundoc7519|Steel prices|Using the material list for a 40' I just got a quote of 13,900 from Pacific Steel for all the steel.| 17950|17877|2008-08-05 22:25:38|gundoc7519|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|I am working on my spread sheet for prices and planning what was the cost for foaming and painting? Thanks for the help. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Doug > I dont think it will make much of a differance for wear, the beads are very > small more like a fine powder, pluss figure 1 coat zinc primer, 1 coat > epoxy, 2 coats epoxy with beads,then 1 coat epoxy on top. It would take a > while to wear through that. > Tom > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 8:57 AM, wrote: > > > Thanks Tom. It will be interesting to know how it wears on the deck. > > > > I wonder if you could collect styrene foam from discarded packing material > > then run it through a wood chipper before mixing it with a cheap latex paint > > pouring it down between the hull and a 1/2 layer of insulation foam board. > > > > Just thinking aloud. > > > > --Doug J > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 5:18 pm > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Doug > > Yes 2 coats on the whole inside and 2 coat on the whole outside above > > water > > line. I still have one more coat to go on the topsides. I bought enough to > > treat 5 gallons thinking that would be plenty but looks like I may need a > > little more, still have 4 hatches to paint 2 coats on. > > To help you figure how much paint,on the 26 from toerail to cabon top > > takes > > 3/4 gallon for one complete coat and thats not counting railing, the sides > > and transom from water line to toe rail takes 1-1/2 quarts. I have 11 > > gallons on sofar and figuring another 4 gallons to finish. > > I must be a slow painter Saturday cleaned up topsides and got ready for > > paint Sunday at 6:30 am started mixing and at noon I had one complete coat > > on the topsides using 4" roller and 2-1/2" brush, did 3 mixes of 1 quart > > because of the 2 hour pot life and with a 1/2 hour induction time takes a > > while. With one quart of epoxy you actualy=2 > > 0have a quart and a half by the > > time you add beads and reducer. > > Tom > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:39 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > Did you put it on yours decks too, or just inside? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 2:30 pm > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. enough to > > > treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 > > coats. > > > Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with condinsation > > > allso. > > > www.hytechsales.com > > > So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in direct > > > sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white without > > > it, > > > inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat box > > > anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am sure its > > > not > > > as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its good > > > enough > > > for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. > > > The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up ready > > for > > > paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start painting > > in > > > the mornin. > > > > > > Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted surface? I > > > think > > all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray it > > > around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and put a > > > finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off from > > the > > > clean bla > > > st is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water streakes > > > comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of angle > > iron > > > and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting will > > get > > > under there 100% . > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/26/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Square foot estimate: > > > > > > > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > > > > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > > > > > > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of 200 > > > > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > > > > > > > > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is over > > 1$ > > > / > > > > sq > > > > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is one > > of > > > > the > > > > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but our > > steel > > > > plate > > > > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and epoxy tar > > > > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. Even > > > still, > > > > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up front > > > savings > > > > to > > > > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=2 > > 0> I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly used for > > > > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as insulation? > > Your > > > > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water line > > > right? > > > > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > > > > > > > Good Luck > > > > Doug J > > > > www.submarineboat > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it sure adds > > > up > > > > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per sq, > > ft > > > by > > > > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost count. > > > > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads mixed > > in > > > > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap roller and > > > was > > > > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is about > > $4 > > > > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when finished, > > > > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean them, > > that > > > > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to shoot out > > a > > > > quart and a half of paint. I wish20I would have tryed that to start > > with. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from www.wassercoatings.com. > > > > > These are good until January. > > > > > > > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > > > > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > > > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > > > > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5 > > > gal -- Use with Zinc and > > > > > Tar > > > > > > > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without > > blasting > > > > and > > > > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: martin demers > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > > > > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the competition > > > but > > > > > he > > > > > said that is was very superior... > > > > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is not > > > much > > > > > for a > > > > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: tazmannm@... > > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a half ago > > I > > > > > paid > > > > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 coats top > > > > side > > > > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Tom, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> They sell20the rust- > > > anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is 12kg and > > > > they > > > > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > > > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than 2 > > > gallons > > > > > for > > > > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Martin > > > > > >> ________________________________ > > > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>> From: tazmannm@... > > > > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > > rust-anode > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Martin > > > > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > > > > ufactures > > > > > make > > > > > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder > > in it, The stuff I > > > > > used > > > > > >> on > > > > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish coat, > > > > pretty > > > > > >> soft > > > > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up under > > > > water > > > > > >> for > > > > > >>> long term, > > > > > >>> Tom > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> HI, > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content zinc > > > primer, > > > > > what > > > > > >> I > > > > > >>>> want to know is if > > > > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > > > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made in > > > Europe > > > > > and > > > > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > > > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold galvanisation > > > > coating > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > > >>>> is different from > > > > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching because > > it > > > > > bonds > > > > > >> to > > > > > >>>> steel more than a > > > > > >>>> primer will do. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> If someone had use > > > > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > > > > >> about > > > > > >>>> it. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Martin. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>> > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new > > topic > > > > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blan > > > k message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM¢Y¡† r%ˆ HöúD…si n¤¢Ãß¾Ò > > -6 > > > > ºO > > > > > Ag} > > > > > ìÁ¼') > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >20> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it t > > > > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To > > > Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ----------- > > ------------------------- > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17951|17944|2008-08-05 23:28:18|brentswain38|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|Gary got it exactly right. Wood shrinks and swells ,no matter how well you seal it. Steel doesn't . That is why no bedding lasts for long between the two. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > I was thinking wood because of weight savings. Lite cloth and epoxy resin > then painted,the plywood panels would still cause the steel tabs to rust? > > On 8/5/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > > Tom, > > I can't for the life of me figure out why someone building a boat out of > > steel would want to bolt WOOD onto it! My fiberglass Etap 26 has plywood > > seats in the cockpit. They have to be replaced every couple of years. What > > a pain in the ass. Weld it all up in steel. Every time you make a joint > > between two dissimilar materials you create nothing but a huge maintenance > > problem. The steel will rust where the wood touches it and the wood will > > rot from all the edges you can't possibly seal up tight. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Tom Mann" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:15 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment" > > > > > > > Hello All > > > Few Ideas have my hamster spnning the wheel. > > > Thinking it would be nice to have easy accesable storage from cockpit > > > without adding more holes in the boat for things like spare anchors,line, > > > life jackets and such. First make foot well as big as the whole cockpit > > > area > > > say on mi 26 front would be 5' and the back 4-1/2' wide by about 12" > > deep, > > > fitted to transom with 3 large drains through transom, then outer > > combings > > > atached to outer edges of well with a lip turned inwards. weld tabs on > > > where > > > needed to atach seat backs,tops. and fronts and build them out of > > plywood, > > > keep edges of plywood 1/2 " from steel sides and bottom for drainage and > > > airflow. Bingo nice big storage compartments under seats with no holes to > > > inside of boat. > > > Then to take the idea 1 step farther for safety and confort. I have read > > > about quite a few that have problems with leakey stuffing boxes, smells > > > from > > > engine then why not make that seperate from the rest of boat allso, > > > basacly > > > run the footwell sides all the way to bottom of boat fitted and welded to > > > hull same with front of well then if you ran a V drive setup the engine > > > and > > > all would fit nicley under cockpit and be sealed from rest of boat put a > > > nice aluminum hatch above engine built simular to the way the capanion > > way > > > hatch is built, big enough to climb in and out for maint and putting the > > > engine in or out would be a lot simpler. vents could be run streight up > > > under combings. No fumes or leaks from engine can get to living quarters > > > and > > > the boat wont sink if stuffing box starts leaking. > > > Any other thoughts on the idea ? good-bad > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17952|17903|2008-08-05 23:45:39|brentswain38|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|The ultra conservative "It will never work " crowd have contributed nothing to human advancement. If we had listened to them all along we would still be in the stone age. No, I take that back. Making tools out of stone was a new fangled idea that was just not the way things should be done , back then. Mike struck me as a macho , insecure, frightened ,imitation tough guy with a very fragile ego. Others here who met him said they felt the same. I told him that after what he did to Alex, I have no interest in selling him plans or anything else , nor in helping him in any way. I'd never do any favours for any price, to someone who stabbed a friend in the back, in order to force him to sell his boat at a giveaway price. I had that done to me when I was broke and trying to sell my last boat. One of the perpetrators has since, thankfully, died. Principles are not for sale at any price. When boats and their overly complex and over priced building methods have deprived so many people of their cruising dreams and freedom, it's obviously time we took a second look at how we are doing things and as" Is there a better way?" I think I have done that, and set a lot of people free. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > I don't get it myself. Maybe he has something against cheap as on > affordable new ships. > > Mind you I have nothing against well engineered devices as I work with > a bunch of them every day. I also work with stuff that is thrown > together with nothing more than experience and a tight grip on the > seat of one pants. Both can lead to functional machines. > > I see no reason why one can not build a useful ship on the same way. > That is experience and trial and error can lead to a very sea worthy > vessel. Further more I suspect that it is safe to say that the vast > majority of the boats that have ever left a harbor have done so > without a full mechanical engineering study. > > Frankly it is a good thing these sorts of guys where not around when > the Vikings discovered America. They might have said the hell with > the adventure. > > Now all that being said I would not object to a qualified ships > engineer reviewing Brents designs. That mostly due to my belief that > any thing can be improved and the more eyes the better. It certainly > works for open source software. Of course the right attitude is > required. > > What really frustrates me though is that this whole idea of a > personally built boat is so far off I don't know if I will ever > achieve it. At this point this forum is all acedemic, enjoyable none > the less though. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jul 28, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Tom Mann wrote: > > > Hello All > > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple weeks > > ago, > > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. what > > amazes > > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting me > > down. I > > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont > > like Brents > > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were doing > > then why > > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment about > > me > > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > > Tom > > > > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in the > > know", > > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed > > smoker, > > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the > > origamiboats > > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on my > > visual > > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of his > > builds & > > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an "all- > > position" > > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up or > > shut up, > > Brent. > > > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > > origamiboats > > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue at > > hand, was > > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex Christie - > > by > > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read Brent's > > remarks, > > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is that > > Brent did > > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and there > > were few > > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been dressed. > > Alex > > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, the > > boat was > > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the hullsides, > > due to the > > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat for at > > least 2 > > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > > protection(pictures > > are available for verification). I felt that the project was worth > > about > > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being generous. > > The owner > > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold it, > > which I > > felt was dishonest. > > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. The > > now > > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which was > > advertised > > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full price. > > > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for $100,000, > > more & > > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than $30,0000. > > This is > > a very important consideration for the builder, who will eventually > > wish to > > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom have > > built > > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 > > years. To > > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > > employment is in > > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have worked > > for > > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, and > > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My welds are > > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started running > > stick at > > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > > engineer, but > > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as a > > certifed > > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near > > Vancouver, > > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from the > > age of > > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > > boilermaker, > > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > > Philippines, in > > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near future, and > > would > > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built to his > > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete with > > you on > > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to follow. > > Mike > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 17953|17877|2008-08-05 23:51:59|brentswain38|Re: zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust-anode|I used to use 1 inch flatbar , but the boat was far less stiff. It got far stiffer when I went for angle. Anything wider that 1 inch I found had to be pre pbent. With angle the outside bends almost as easliy as flatbar, but when welded to plate is far stiffer. Your test would have to measure the stiffness after it has been welded to the plate, which says absolutely nothing about how easy it was to get it there. This is the difference between theory and experience. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Sorry but that makes exactly NO sense. > > You're saying flat bar isn't as stiff as angle. OK if we're talking > about the same section depth/thickness as 1 leg of an angle, I'd agree. > > Then you say that to get the equiv stiffness, you'd have to go so big, > you'd need to pre-bend. Sorry, wrong. If the FB is as stiff as the > angle (though a bigger size) it'll bend from the same amount of force > as the angle will. Equal stiffness, equal resistance to deflection. I > could have rigged up a strain gauge and a deflection measurement if I > was still in my old job but it's pretty easy to test this for yourself > anyway. > > I wouldn't use angle either because it's a right bastard to paint > under. FB is widely used in commercial shipping as a stiffening > member. No reason not to use it and a hell of a lot easier for > maintenance. Once welded to the shell plate, it acts as a big T anyway. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Flat bar is nowhere near as stiff as angle, and you would have to go > > so big, you'd have to pre bend them, to get the same stiffness. T- > > section may be an option. Most stringers are buried in sprayfoam so > > shape is not an issue. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Doug > > > The ceramic beads are from Hy-Tech , They are for insulation. > > enough to > > > treat 5 gallons cost me about $75 with shipping and they recomend 2 > > coats. > > > Cant say how well it works yet but its supposed to help with > > condinsation > > > allso. > > > www.hytechsales.com > > > So far the only sientific testing I have done is on a hot day in > > direct > > > sun the white that has 2 coats is cooler to touch than the white > > without it, > > > inside I have 2 coats on most of it and it doesnt feel like a sweat > > box > > > anymore like it did and it allso deadnd the sound a bit . I am > > sure its not > > > as good as spray foam but if it keeps the boat dry in winter its > > good enough > > > for me, that and I like the idea of being able to see the hull. > > > The grandaughter has been helping me get the topsides cleaned up > > ready for > > > paint,TSP.elbow grease,brush,and sandpaper shes ready to start > > painting in > > > the mornin. > > > > > > Anyone know what phosphate "rust-mate" does to epoxy painted > > surface? I > > > think all it will do is discolor it a bit but I would like to spray > > it > > > around the stringers to get under the edges then wash in out and > > put a > > > finish coat on it. been washing inside getting the black stuff off > > from the > > > clean blast is a bear and from the water there is a few rusy water > > streakes > > > comming out . Next one I build I will use flat strip instead of > > angle iron > > > and bevlel the edges touching the hull then blasting and painting > > will get > > > under there 100% . > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/26/08, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Square foot estimate: > > > > > > > > 1 - coat of MC-Zinc 100 at 256.04/3gal. /3 = $85.35/gal > > > > /Coverage rate of 200 sq ft/gal = .43 / sq ft > > > > > > > > 2 - coats of MC-Tar at $250/5gal /5= $50/gal /Coverage rate of > > 200 > > > > sq ft/gal = .25/sq ft x2 coats = .50/sq ft > > > > > > > > > > > > Plus thinner, tax, shipping, and application consumables that is > > over 1$ / > > > > sq > > > > ft. Then we still need topcoat and anti-fowling paint. ...This is > > one of > > > > the > > > > reasons why we nearly waited until I could afford aluminum, but > > our steel > > > > plate > > > > came to $6.75 / sq ft delivered including tax. The zinc and > > epoxy tar > > > > coats on each side for the steel will add another $2 / sq ft. > > Even still, > > > > aluminum came to about $16.15 / sq ft so there is a lot of up > > front savings > > > > to > > > > cover the cost of blasting, and coatings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am interested in your use of ceramic beads. They are mainly > > used for > > > > abrasion protection right? But they will also act as > > insulation? Your > > > > using these on the inside of the hull above and below the water > > line right? > > > > If you don't mind where did you get the idea and what is the cost? > > > > > > > > Good Luck > > > > Doug J > > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 9:34 am > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS rust- > > anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > Those look like pretty good prices for todays cost but yes it > > sure adds up > > > > in20a hurry. It would be interesting to find out what it cost per > > sq, ft by > > > > the time its finished from sand blasting to finish coat. I lost > > count. > > > > I shot one coat on the outside hull sides with the ceramic beads > > mixed in > > > > and what a rough finish, finaly gave up and tryed a 1/4" nap > > roller and was > > > > supprised to get smoother surface, faster and cheaper. Roller is > > about $4 > > > > and the plastic tray for roller pan $1 then throw away when > > finished, > > > > reducer is about $24 a gallon and it cost more to try to clean > > them, that > > > > and the fact I am not using a gallon of gas in compressor to > > shoot out a > > > > quart and a half of paint. I wish I would have tryed that to > > start with. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for comparison, I got prices today from > > www.wassercoatings.com. > > > > > These are good until January. > > > > > > > > > > MC-Zinc 100 -- 85.68/gal, 256.04 /3gal > > > > > > > > > > MC-Tar - Red / Black -- Black 51.44 /gal > > > > > 249.37 /5gal Red: 251.45 /5gal > > > > > > > > > > MC Thinner -- $97.00 /5gal -- Use with Zinc and > > > > > Tar > > > > > > > > > > Even with the cheaper price, we have decided to build without > > blasting > > > > and > > > > > priming and give time for the cash flow to catch up. > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: martin demers > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 7:47 pm > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] zinc primer > > > > VS zinc coating VS rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guy admitted that is stuff is more expensive than the > > competition but > > > > > he > > > > > said that is was very superior... > > > > > and that I should not need more than 2 gal. or $600.00 wich is > > not much > > > > > for a > > > > > so good zinc treatment... > > > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > From: tazmannm@ > > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:34:00 -0700 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > rust-anode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dang thats $300 a gallon, when I bought about a year and a > > half ago I > > > > > paid > > > > > > $125 a gallon and thought that was bad. > > > > > > I used 2 gallons on my 26 , 1 coat on hull exterior and 2 > > coats top > > > > side > > > > > > could have easily used 3 gallon just on outside. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/24/08, martin demers wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Tom, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> They sell20the rust-anode $25.00 for 1 kg, minimum buy is > > 12kg and > > > > they > > > > > >> think I will need around 25kg for my 37ft boat. > > > > > >> I find it too expensive and I presume I will need more than > > 2 gallons > > > > > for > > > > > >> my boat (1gal. of that product is around 12kg) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Martin > > > > > >> ________________________________ > > > > > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>> From: tazmannm@ > > > > > >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:55 -0700 > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zinc primer VS zinc coating VS > > rust-anode > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Martin > > > > > >>> Rust-Anode sounds like regular zinc rich primer, lot of man > > > > ufactures > > > > > make > > > > > >>> it, most is epoxy based with lots of zinc powder in it, The > > stuff I > > > > > used > > > > > >> on > > > > > >>> the outside of hull I dont think would make a good finish > > coat, > > > > pretty > > > > > >> soft > > > > > >>> and not a smooth finish. Not sure how well it would hold up > > under > > > > water > > > > > >> for > > > > > >>> long term, > > > > > >>> Tom > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On 7/24/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> HI, > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> In your book Brent you mention the use of high content > > zinc primer, > > > > > what > > > > > >> I > > > > > >>>> want to know is if > > > > > >>>> it is a real primer or a coating you are taking about. > > > > > >>>> Because I just found out about Rust-Anode, a product made > > in Europe > > > > > and > > > > > >>>> sold in Canada. > > > > > >>>> The company specify that their product is a cold > > galvanisation > > > > coating > > > > > >> and > > > > > >>>> is different from > > > > > >>>> paint. And that it will resist to rust after scratching > > because it > > > > > bonds > > > > > >> to > > > > > >>>> steel more than a > > > > > >>>> primer will do. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Also it has apparently some antifouling properties. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> If someone had use > > > > > that product or something similar, I'd like to ear > > > > > >> about > > > > > >>>> it. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Martin. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------ > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> __________________________________________________________ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ------------------------------------ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a > > new topic > > > > > > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Members > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif%5d > > > > > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! IL,UNM¢Y¡† r%ˆ HöúD… si n¤¢ > > Ãß¾Ò -6 > > > > ºO > > > > > Ag} > > > > > ìÁ¼') > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it t > > > > o: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 17954|17855|2008-08-05 23:54:22|brentswain38|Re: fuel, water, waste deck fills|3/4 inch ss nut welded on the cap lets you use a wrench on it. Brent A--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg wrote: > > Hi Jim, might be a bit late, but here is my choice: > http://img.skitch.com/20080729-r6myrh1pgmm2m3snk5rg39timn.jpg > 2" ss nipple with a bit of pipe welded on the cap. Easy to open and you can lock the caps on with the bar. > Paul L > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Ragsdale > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:55 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] fuel, water, waste deck fills > To: Origamiboats > > > What does everyone use for their deck fills? Pipe nipple with a > > plug or a cap? Is an o-ring type seal better than pipe threads? > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   > > origamiboats@... Unsubscribe, send a blank message > > to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17955|17907|2008-08-06 00:01:20|brentswain38|Re: Criticism of origami and personalities|In welding rod the first number is the tensile strength. 6011 is 60,000 psi, 7024 is 70,000 psi, on steel that is only 60,000 psi. So how do you make the steel stornger with a stronger weld?Duhhh!!! Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Well I wouldnt say were heros, just took the plunge. I like this site too, > if you looking for info or ideas its the place to ask and most are willing > to help. > This guy Mike has a seriouse problem, He thinks because he has a ticket his > opinion is what counts and the rest of us are full of it he is like a > spoiled kid, whine , cry and criticise till he gets his way . > He dont relize some of us here have tickets too we just dont bring it up at > every discussion to try to make our opinion worth more nor do we bring up my > grampa this my dad this I mean what the hack that got to do with what type > rod or wire I am using. I would like to here from him the home built boats > that sank because of inferior welds down the centerline,any? He allso > mentioned on one thread that he left the origamiboats group because he got > tired of argeuing over welding proccedures, well mabee if he stated his > opinion and left it alone there would not have been a probem but when he > pushes his opinion down your throat and wont quit then its a problem. There > are several ways to weld the boat together, to say one is better then the > other is hog wash, depends on where and what equipment you have or is > available. > Sorry to ramble a bit but as you can tell this guy Mike got on my nerves a > bit with the name calling and such. > One other thing, he claims flux core wire welds have 5 time the strength as > stick welds, wonder where he came up with that. I have used both, I need > proof, wire is faster thats it. > Tom > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 7:08 AM, jonathanswef < > jonathanstevens@...> wrote: > > > Tom and co, > > I think you are all heros. I found your picture record, Tom, amongst > > others, Brent's book and all the old chat on this board inspirational > > and helpful. Whenever I have posted a question I have had useful > > replies. If boats have taken years to build it is a reflection of the > > time and money the builder has had. Origami hulls take less time to > > build. The rest of the job is just the same. What does that matter? > > The moral boost of cutting those sheets out and pulling the thing > > together is without equal in the boat building world. Brent frequently > > reminds us we don't need to finish the thing to be out there cruising; > > most of us have limited sailing seasons so we could spend our winters > > refining our creations. I often look at rich mens boats; they will for > > me be always out of reach but I can still get out there in a homebuilt > > vessel with origami. > > I see no need for anyone to criticise this group or any member of it, > > especially on a different board. > > Good luck to us all. > > Jonathan. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17956|17929|2008-08-06 00:04:43|brentswain38|Re: any thoughts on old school paints (Red lead primer+oil based top|I've never seen good long term results with rust converter. Those old ships had a full time crew to keep putting paint on them. Zinc rich primers and epoxy let you ignore such maintenenace with a degree of impunity that didn't exist in the past. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gundoc7519" wrote: > > As way of introduction I am retired from the USN where I had the > pleasure of setting foot in 68 countries and did get the see the world > part. I washed ashore here in the high plains of Montana and my feet > are getting itchy again. The kids are grown up and moved out and I > have the wife on board with the lets build a boat and do some > traveling plan. > I was a Chief Gunners Mate for 11 of my 20 years so I am handy with > mechanical, electrical and electronic systems. I learned to stick > weld at my fathers knee so I have that going for me, he was a welder > in the ship yards during world war two and showed me the basics gave > me pile of scrap metal and set me to welding and would come out and > couch me. > I like steel for safety durability ect and was looking at the old > school frame and plate method when I came on the origami method its > brilliant. > I will have about 18,000 dollars a year (retirement income) to build > and then sail the boat and am looking at getting away in about four > years. Sooner if I can talk the wife in to selling her business ect > sooner but we agreed on four year deadline. > Sorry for the long intro but my question is I was reading the > post about paints and never saw anything about the old school paints I > have been in ships voids ect that were painted 40 years ago with red > lead primer and haze gray or machinery gray and were still in good shape. > Is there still a place for them or have epoxies replaced them? Also a > while before I got out (10 years ago) they were starting to use rust > converter then paint over any ideas on the durability of that? Anyone > use Rust Bullet saw it on the internet and wondered if anyone had any > opinions about it? > I am doing the research phase now and firing up my excel spread > sheet to figure out total cost so I am sure I will have more questions > in the future. > > Thanks for the help > > Don Hayes > | 17957|17939|2008-08-06 00:44:18|Paul Wilson|Hot-dip Galvanizing|I am repainting my engine on the boat and will be getting some various engine brackets, etc re-galvanized. I have been really impressed at how well other parts have stood up having done galvanizing in the past and was wondering if I could galvanize the cast iron bell housing on my engine rather than re-painting it. This may be a stupid question but would the heat of the hot dip bath affect it at all? I am worried it may warp. Thanks in advance, Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17958|17939|2008-08-06 01:52:59|Aaron Williams|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|Paul My thought are as long as its pre-heated before getting dipped. If not the cast iron could crack. Aaron --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: [origamiboats] Hot-dip Galvanizing To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 8:44 PM I am repainting my engine on the boat and will be getting some various engine brackets, etc re-galvanized. I have been really impressed at how well other parts have stood up having done galvanizing in the past and was wondering if I could galvanize the cast iron bell housing on my engine rather than re-painting it. This may be a stupid question but would the heat of the hot dip bath affect it at all? I am worried it may warp. Thanks in advance, Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17959|17939|2008-08-06 07:33:26|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|Hi Paul, I would be concerned that the mating surfaces and bolt holes would need to be re machined if not due to distortion then from the variable thickness, blobs, runs etc of the galv finish. I had the prop shaft coupling sand blasted and then painted it with Zinga and am very pleased with the durability of finish. Regards, Ted| 17960|17944|2008-08-06 07:49:24|edward_stoneuk|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|Hi Tom, Others have commented on the problems with the wood / steel interface. I would be concerned about the ½" airflow space being a collecting place for pens, money, small dead fish or parts thereof etc. I have been thinking of the problems of storage of anchors, chains, fenders, lines etc. and not really got anywhere. I was thinking of fitting lifting cockpit seats over hatches that gave access into lockers or the hull space beneath, which is what many boats have. And I was thinking of access to the same space through the pilot house, which is not the best to retrieve heavy items such as an anchor without risking a slipped disc. I have built a heavy spare anchor but haven't worked out how or where to stow it yet. Ideally I would like my heavy items away from the end of the boat and might put a hatch in the deck to the side of the cabin, but that presents problems of toe stubbing. Regards, Ted| 17961|17944|2008-08-06 09:20:49|Tom|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|Having a separate and sealed Engine compartment is a great idea if your engine setup allows it. There is a 30' Steel life boat converted to a Ketch near here, "Terlin", tht has exactly that. A regular hatch from the cockpit to get in the rear engine compartment and pretty much the whole cockpit floor unbolts in case you need to open it to replace the engine. It would take a V-drive to make it work with most boats as the engine is too far forward to make it practical with a regular drive. Tom - KA0TP --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: >snip.... > Then to take the idea 1 step farther for safety and confort. I have read > about quite a few that have problems with leakey stuffing boxes, smells from > engine then why not make that seperate from the rest of boat allso, basacly > run the footwell sides all the way to bottom of boat fitted and welded to > hull same with front of well then if you ran a V drive setup the engine and > all would fit nicley under cockpit and be sealed from rest of boat put a > nice aluminum hatch above engine built simular to the way the capanion way > hatch is built, big enough to climb in and out for maint and putting the > engine in or out would be a lot simpler. vents could be run streight up > under combings. No fumes or leaks from engine can get to living quarters and > the boat wont sink if stuffing box starts leaking. > Any other thoughts on the idea ? good-bad > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17962|17944|2008-08-06 10:10:52|Tom Mann|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|Hello Ted Yes it is a tough one to figure out. I didnt think the plywood would be that big of a deal only attached to small tabs. the gap my thinking is that the water wont collect on seat tops no matter what angle the boat is, same with bottom of foot well. Problem I could see sealing them up tight is if you throw somthing in there that is damp or wet it will stay that way and mold, kinda catch 22 situation. If plywood would be a problem I dont see why it couldnt be done in say 16 gage galvanized sheet, brake up tops and side in one piece, brake in a few small stiffning ribs and bolt them in. Tom On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 4:49 AM, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Hi Tom, > > Others have commented on the problems with the wood / steel interface. > I would be concerned about the ½" airflow space being a collecting > place for pens, money, small dead fish or parts thereof etc. > > I have been thinking of the problems of storage of anchors, chains, > fenders, lines etc. and not really got anywhere. I was thinking of > fitting lifting cockpit seats over hatches that gave access into > lockers or the hull space beneath, which is what many boats have. And > I was thinking of access to the same space through the pilot house, > which is not the best to retrieve heavy items such as an anchor without > risking a slipped disc. I have built a heavy spare anchor but haven't > worked out how or where to stow it yet. Ideally I would like my heavy > items away from the end of the boat and might put a hatch in the deck > to the side of the cabin, but that presents problems of toe stubbing. > > Regards, > Ted > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17963|17944|2008-08-06 12:07:21|sae140|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello Ted > Yes it is a tough one to figure out. I didnt think the plywood would > be that big of a deal only attached to small tabs. Wood against mild steel is a bad mix - but plywood which has been glassed-over (preferably with epoxy) bolted to stainless tabs might be a workable combination ? Colin| 17964|17944|2008-08-06 12:13:53|edward_stoneuk|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|Hi Tom, Folks make boats from plywood and bolt steel things to them, so I guess that there is a way. Regards, Ted| 17965|17944|2008-08-06 16:15:37|Paul Wilson|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|I have wood bolted to stainless steel tabs on deck and in the cockpit. It hasn't been a problem (18+ yrs??) but the secret is to use good sealant, and have ZERO possibility of having any standing water laying about. I have seen lots of boats with rot in the cockpit, no matter what kind of construction. Cockpit lockers are pretty difficult to do this but I think it is possible. In my opinion, I wouldn't have steel opening hatches in the cockpit. I think the edges of steel hatches are too easily paint chipped and would always be rust streaked. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment" --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello Ted > Yes it is a tough one to figure out. I didnt think the plywood would > be that big of a deal only attached to small tabs. Wood against mild steel is a bad mix - but plywood which has been glassed-over (preferably with epoxy) bolted to stainless tabs might be a workable combination ? Colin No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1594 - Release Date: 8/5/2008 9:49 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17966|17944|2008-08-06 16:34:02|Paul Wilson|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|I remember mentioning to Brent and Winston when I was building my boat that I needed to make cockpit lockers. Brent said they were rust traps and Winston said not having cockpit lockers was a wonderful thing. I didn’t understand why he thought that was so wonderful until I learned that Winston was rolled over at least 3 times in his ferro 31 footer off South Africa and was almost sunk by the water that came into the boat through the lockers. I took their advice and the only storage in my cockpit is in the coamings for small items like winch handles and a little bit of storage in the propane locker. I turned one of the quarter berths into a storage area with a curtain closure and everything large gets dumped in there. I did the same as you and built a large storm anchor. It’s lashed down on deck in chocks and easy to use in an emergency. My system is a pain in the ass sometimes but has seemed to work OK. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment" Hi Tom, Others have commented on the problems with the wood / steel interface. I would be concerned about the ½" airflow space being a collecting place for pens, money, small dead fish or parts thereof etc. I have been thinking of the problems of storage of anchors, chains, fenders, lines etc. and not really got anywhere. I was thinking of fitting lifting cockpit seats over hatches that gave access into lockers or the hull space beneath, which is what many boats have. And I was thinking of access to the same space through the pilot house, which is not the best to retrieve heavy items such as an anchor without risking a slipped disc. I have built a heavy spare anchor but haven't worked out how or where to stow it yet. Ideally I would like my heavy items away from the end of the boat and might put a hatch in the deck to the side of the cabin, but that presents problems of toe stubbing. Regards, Ted No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1594 - Release Date: 8/5/2008 9:49 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17967|17939|2008-08-06 16:34:09|Paul Wilson|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|Thanks, I was worried about that too and thought I could sand off the machined surfaced since they are flat. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing Hi Paul, I would be concerned that the mating surfaces and bolt holes would need to be re machined if not due to distortion then from the variable thickness, blobs, runs etc of the galv finish. I had the prop shaft coupling sand blasted and then painted it with Zinga and am very pleased with the durability of finish. Regards, Ted No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1594 - Release Date: 8/5/2008 9:49 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17968|17944|2008-08-06 17:32:13|Jim Ragsdale|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|Here is what I did: http://jimragsdale.livejournal.com/6165.html#cutid1 http://jimragsdale.livejournal.com/7953.html#cutid1 They are flush mounted into the deck using stainless channels. There is a rubber gasket on the inside flange to seal against the locker. There are 3 drains in each door recess. I built some flush mount hatch dogs that will keep the lids sealed. I'm not sure how well the locker lids will work. Worst case, is that I have to modify my hinges a bit to add some slop and add 2 more dogs to the back corners of each hatch to pull them down tighter. ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 3:33:57 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment" I remember mentioning to Brent and Winston when I was building my boat that I needed to make cockpit lockers. Brent said they were rust traps and Winston said not having cockpit lockers was a wonderful thing. I didn�t understand why he thought that was so wonderful until I learned that Winston was rolled over at least 3 times in his ferro 31 footer off South Africa and was almost sunk by the water that came into the boat through the lockers. I took their advice and the only storage in my cockpit is in the coamings for small items like winch handles and a little bit of storage in the propane locker. I turned one of the quarter berths into a storage area with a curtain closure and everything large gets dumped in there. I did the same as you and built a large storm anchor. It�s lashed down on deck in chocks and easy to use in an emergency. My system is a pain in the ass sometimes but has seemed to work OK. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:49 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment" Hi Tom, Others have commented on the problems with the wood / steel interface. I would be concerned about the �" airflow space being a collecting place for pens, money, small dead fish or parts thereof etc. I have been thinking of the problems of storage of anchors, chains, fenders, lines etc. and not really got anywhere. I was thinking of fitting lifting cockpit seats over hatches that gave access into lockers or the hull space beneath, which is what many boats have. And I was thinking of access to the same space through the pilot house, which is not the best to retrieve heavy items such as an anchor without risking a slipped disc. I have built a heavy spare anchor but haven't worked out how or where to stow it yet. Ideally I would like my heavy items away from the end of the boat and might put a hatch in the deck to the side of the cabin, but that presents problems of toe stubbing. Regards, Ted No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1594 - Release Date: 8/5/2008 9:49 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17969|17944|2008-08-06 19:15:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 02:32:10PM -0700, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > Here is what I did: > http://jimragsdale.livejournal.com/6165.html#cutid1 > http://jimragsdale.livejournal.com/7953.html#cutid1 > > They are flush mounted into the deck using stainless channels. There > is a rubber gasket on the inside flange to seal against the locker. > There are 3 drains in each door recess. I built some flush mount hatch > dogs that will keep the lids sealed. I'm not sure how well the locker > lids will work. Worst case, is that I have to modify my hinges a bit > to add some slop and add 2 more dogs to the back corners of each hatch > to pull them down tighter. Nice job, Jim! The big project that I'm just finishing up now aboard "Ulysses" involved, in part, redesigning and rebuilding the lockers; that's pretty close to what I've done with mine - except that I didn't enclose the front at all. They're not quite as pretty as yours, but I have no problems with drainage. :) I still need to gasket them properly - not that they leak, I just don't want the steel edge of the lid slamming down on the rim of the locker. I'm also thinking of putting in some pneumatic supports, both for the seat lockers and the aft cabin hatch. I've got a wife and a small son on board, and I don't want their fingers getting mashed by accident. In fact... anybody have any experience designing mounts for pneumatic shocks like that? I've never done it, so all I've got going is guesswork. The way I figure it is that the aft hatch weighs about 15 lbs, and is 18" front-to-back; if I can get 12 lb. of lifting force when it's closed, I'll be happy. The way I figure it on the back of a convenient napkin is this: if I have two 12" (closed position) supports of 20 lbs. each, and mount one end of each near the back of the hatch (i.e., toward the hinge end) and ~3.5" down, and then attach the other end right to the underside of the lid, that should give me 1/3rd the lifting force or (3.5" / 12" * 20 * 2) about 11.7 lbs. Does that sound reasonable? Am I off my rocker? Is there a better way to figure this or (even better) a less complicated way to do this? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17970|17944|2008-08-06 20:23:04|Tom Mann|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|Hello Paul opening lockers to the inside of boat could defenantly turn into a desaster, My glass boat has them. That is why I came up with idea of making well bigger, no openings to interior of boat,removable seat top and fronts eliminates the problem of rust traps if you have drainage and airflow. One other thought I had for storage is along side of foot well, make up a 3 sided box to suit size needed length and width and a little shallower than the well itself the box weld in under seat to edge of well, weld in air tight, make up bottom of box so it slopes 5-10% toward well, put in drain holes bottom corners to drain directly into well then you can add opening hatchs top or side or both to access storage, no need for water tight hatches just somthing to fit flush., Tom On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > I remember mentioning to Brent and Winston when I was building my boat that > I needed to make cockpit lockers. Brent said they were rust traps and > Winston said not having cockpit lockers was a wonderful thing. I didn't > understand why he thought that was so wonderful until I learned that > Winston > was rolled over at least 3 times in his ferro 31 footer off South Africa > and > was almost sunk by the water that came into the boat through the lockers. > > I took their advice and the only storage in my cockpit is in the coamings > for small items like winch handles and a little bit of storage in the > propane locker. I turned one of the quarter berths into a storage area > with > a curtain closure and everything large gets dumped in there. I did the same > as you and built a large storm anchor. It's lashed down on deck in chocks > and easy to use in an emergency. My system is a pain in the ass sometimes > but has seemed to work OK. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of edward_stoneuk > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:49 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment" > > Hi Tom, > > Others have commented on the problems with the wood / steel interface. > I would be concerned about the ½" airflow space being a collecting > place for pens, money, small dead fish or parts thereof etc. > > I have been thinking of the problems of storage of anchors, chains, > fenders, lines etc. and not really got anywhere. I was thinking of > fitting lifting cockpit seats over hatches that gave access into > lockers or the hull space beneath, which is what many boats have. And > I was thinking of access to the same space through the pilot house, > which is not the best to retrieve heavy items such as an anchor without > risking a slipped disc. I have built a heavy spare anchor but haven't > worked out how or where to stow it yet. Ideally I would like my heavy > items away from the end of the boat and might put a hatch in the deck > to the side of the cabin, but that presents problems of toe stubbing. > > Regards, > Ted > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1594 - Release Date: 8/5/2008 > 9:49 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17971|17939|2008-08-06 22:16:03|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|Paul, I design parts that get hot dip galvanized all the time. It is a great finish when done right, by a good galvanizer. I would not try the clutch housing. There are too many variables that make it risky. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 4:33 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing > Thanks, I was worried about that too and thought I could sand off the > machined surfaced since they are flat. > > Cheers, Paul > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of edward_stoneuk > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:33 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing > > Hi Paul, > > I would be concerned that the mating surfaces and bolt holes would need > to be re machined if not due to distortion then from the variable > thickness, blobs, runs etc of the galv finish. > > I had the prop shaft coupling sand blasted and then painted it with > Zinga and am very pleased with the durability of finish. > > Regards, > Ted > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1594 - Release Date: 8/5/2008 > 9:49 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 17972|17944|2008-08-06 22:28:03|Gary H. Lucas|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|My Etap 26 is the most sealed boat I have ever seen. How many boats do you see with gasketing all away around the companion way sliding hatch, AND around the companion way boards? The cockpit seat lockers are gasketed too, and it is nice design that would be easy to copy in steel. They simply used a rubber bulb gasket with a gripper that goes over a 1/8" edge around a hole cut in a flat surface. There are 4 rubber bumpers around the opening that support the actual hatch so the gasket is sealed but not crushed. The lids are held shut by lines attached to the lids that go through PVC tubes to cleats located in an interior locker. They left a tail on the lines so you can tie back the hatch so it doesn't fall down. Simple, cheap, effective. The engine hatch is in the floor of the cockpit. Same gasket, also in excellent shape after 25 years. Same rope system holding the hatch shut or open. An interesting note. The seat hatches are varnished plywood and have been replaced twice in 25 years, and are due again. The gaskets around the openings under the seat are original, and still look new! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 4:15 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment" >I have wood bolted to stainless steel tabs on deck and in the cockpit. It > hasn't been a problem (18+ yrs??) but the secret is to use good sealant, > and > have ZERO possibility of having any standing water laying about. I have > seen lots of boats with rot in the cockpit, no matter what kind of > construction. Cockpit lockers are pretty difficult to do this but I think > it is possible. In my opinion, I wouldn't have steel opening hatches in > the > cockpit. I think the edges of steel hatches are too easily paint chipped > and would always be rust streaked. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:07 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment" > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Tom Mann" wrote: >> >> Hello Ted >> Yes it is a tough one to figure out. I didnt think the plywood > would > be that big of a deal only attached to small tabs. > > Wood against mild steel is a bad mix - but plywood which has > been glassed-over (preferably with epoxy) bolted to stainless tabs > might be a workable combination ? > > Colin > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1594 - Release Date: 8/5/2008 > 9:49 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 17973|17973|2008-08-07 05:21:41|sarahbulmington|New Freebies 7th August|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the latest freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! The first and last letters in the link have been separated purposely since many email providers block email messages with live links in them. Simply reconnect letters by taking out the 2 spaces to make the link 'live' again. www .freebietelegraph. com/?page=10 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 17974|17944|2008-08-07 07:56:28|Jim Ragsdale|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|Ben, If I did it over again, I would probably also open the fronts into the cockpit well. Maybe on the Mark II... ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 6:14:44 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment" On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 02:32:10PM -0700, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > Here is what I did: > http://jimragsdale. livejournal. com/6165. html#cutid1 > http://jimragsdale. livejournal. com/7953. html#cutid1 > > They are flush mounted into the deck using stainless channels. There > is a rubber gasket on the inside flange to seal against the locker. > There are 3 drains in each door recess. I built some flush mount hatch > dogs that will keep the lids sealed. I'm not sure how well the locker > lids will work. Worst case, is that I have to modify my hinges a bit > to add some slop and add 2 more dogs to the back corners of each hatch > to pull them down tighter. Nice job, Jim! The big project that I'm just finishing up now aboard "Ulysses" involved, in part, redesigning and rebuilding the lockers; that's pretty close to what I've done with mine - except that I didn't enclose the front at all. They're not quite as pretty as yours, but I have no problems with drainage. :) I still need to gasket them properly - not that they leak, I just don't want the steel edge of the lid slamming down on the rim of the locker. I'm also thinking of putting in some pneumatic supports, both for the seat lockers and the aft cabin hatch. I've got a wife and a small son on board, and I don't want their fingers getting mashed by accident. In fact... anybody have any experience designing mounts for pneumatic shocks like that? I've never done it, so all I've got going is guesswork. The way I figure it is that the aft hatch weighs about 15 lbs, and is 18" front-to-back; if I can get 12 lb. of lifting force when it's closed, I'll be happy. The way I figure it on the back of a convenient napkin is this: if I have two 12" (closed position) supports of 20 lbs. each, and mount one end of each near the back of the hatch (i.e., toward the hinge end) and ~3.5" down, and then attach the other end right to the underside of the lid, that should give me 1/3rd the lifting force or (3.5" / 12" * 20 * 2) about 11.7 lbs. Does that sound reasonable? Am I off my rocker? Is there a better way to figure this or (even better) a less complicated way to do this? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17975|17975|2008-08-07 09:26:07|Shane Duncan|HELP keel position 31 BS|i have to cut the keel slot out tomorrow what is the position of the Brent Swain 31 single keel position it is not given on the plans so far i'm going with Toms advice and cutting the leading  edge in line with the mast at 3410 mm from the bow is this correct?       ----- Original Message ---- From: Gordon Schnell To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:53:32 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 40´ Brent Swain Design Luis What kind of things are you looking for in the 40' Swain hull pics? Gord avedelmar wrote: > > Is there anyone who is building, or has built a 40´Swain boat that has > some pictures of the hull to share? > > Luis > >  ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17976|17975|2008-08-07 21:54:09|brentswain38|Re: HELP keel position 31 BS|The leading edge of the keel pipe meets the hull exactly at the mast step Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > i have to cut the keel slot out tomorrow > what is the position of the Brent Swain 31 single keel position > it is not given on the plans > so far i'm going with Toms advice and cutting the leading edge in line with the mast at 3410 mm from the bow > is this correct? > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gordon Schnell > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:53:32 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 40´ Brent Swain Design > > Luis > What kind of things are you looking for in the 40' Swain hull pics? > Gord > > > avedelmar wrote: > > > > Is there anyone who is building, or has built a 40´Swain boat that has > > some pictures of the hull to share? > > > > Luis > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17977|17939|2008-08-07 22:08:16|brentswain38|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|You could wash the zinc of the mating surfaces and around the bolt holes with muriatic acid. Then you would have to heavily coat the surfaces with lanolin to stop it from corroding rapidly. I doubt that you would have any cracking problems. Big hunks of cast iron are often galvanized. Submerged in molten in zinc , it would heat evenly. Where I have used epoxy tar on my engine it has stuck like shit to a blanket, for years. Next time I would epoxy the whole engine. I plan to do it wherever accessible. I've heard of people giving a new engine several additional coats of paint before installing it. Not a bad idea given the extremely light paint job most new engines come with. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > I would be concerned that the mating surfaces and bolt holes would need > to be re machined if not due to distortion then from the variable > thickness, blobs, runs etc of the galv finish. > > I had the prop shaft coupling sand blasted and then painted it with > Zinga and am very pleased with the durability of finish. > > Regards, > Ted > | 17978|17944|2008-08-07 22:13:33|brentswain38|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|More hatches mean more potential spots for leaks, corrosion etc. I access my cockpit from the wheelhouse, awkward for sure, but by far the lesser of evils, having had aft hatches in my last two boats. I have no temptation to go back to aft hatches. If you do , make sure all the frames and decks up to them are stainless. When I make more anchors , I plan to leave the shanks off several for easier stowage. With the engine driven alternator welder, I can weld the shank on quickly if I lose an anchor. This will let me carry far more spares, in less space. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > Others have commented on the problems with the wood / steel interface. > I would be concerned about the ½" airflow space being a collecting > place for pens, money, small dead fish or parts thereof etc. > > I have been thinking of the problems of storage of anchors, chains, > fenders, lines etc. and not really got anywhere. I was thinking of > fitting lifting cockpit seats over hatches that gave access into > lockers or the hull space beneath, which is what many boats have. And > I was thinking of access to the same space through the pilot house, > which is not the best to retrieve heavy items such as an anchor without > risking a slipped disc. I have built a heavy spare anchor but haven't > worked out how or where to stow it yet. Ideally I would like my heavy > items away from the end of the boat and might put a hatch in the deck > to the side of the cabin, but that presents problems of toe stubbing. > > Regards, > Ted > | 17979|17975|2008-08-07 22:17:54|brentswain38|Re: HELP keel position 31 BS|Centred on the base of the mast. With the boat leveled, drop a plumb bob down from the centre of the mast and put the leading edge of the keel pipe there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The leading edge of the keel pipe meets the hull exactly at the mast step > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > i have to cut the keel slot out tomorrow > > what is the position of the Brent Swain 31 single keel position > > it is not given on the plans > > so far i'm going with Toms advice and cutting the leading edge in > line with the mast at 3410 mm from the bow > > is this correct? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Gordon Schnell > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:53:32 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 40´ Brent Swain Design > > > > Luis > > What kind of things are you looking for in the 40' Swain hull pics? > > Gord > > > > > > avedelmar wrote: > > > > > > Is there anyone who is building, or has built a 40´Swain boat that has > > > some pictures of the hull to share? > > > > > > Luis > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 17980|17944|2008-08-07 23:31:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|On Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 02:13:32AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > When I make more anchors , I plan to leave the shanks off several for > easier stowage. With the engine driven alternator welder, I can weld > the shank on quickly if I lose an anchor. This will let me carry far > more spares, in less space. When I was in Puerto Rico, I met a retired Cuban-American ironworker from Miami who had built himself a 35' (or so) steel boat. While he was at it, he built a 150-lb. and a 250-lb. (!) anchor that he could disassemble and stow in his bilge - he considered them part of his ballast. When Hurricane Luis came along, he put them together, winched them up out of his main salon using his topping lift, and laid them out. He was the least worried of all of us, even when a 55' Taiwanese boat broke loose and fetched up against him. He looked at the boats pounding out there and said "she'll hold." She did. The 55-footer came loose from him and ended up on the beach; his boat stayed right where it was. Folks, that's what *I* call insurance. That man had bought himself damn near perfect peace of mind for those situations. All that other crap about "pay us premiums and we'll think about what to do _after_ your boat is destroyed" is some kind of a loser's consolation prize. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17981|17944|2008-08-07 23:55:31|Paul Thompson|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 3:30 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 02:13:32AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > When I was in Puerto Rico, I met a retired Cuban-American ironworker > from Miami who had built himself a 35' (or so) steel boat. While he was > at it, he built a 150-lb. and a 250-lb. (!) anchor that he could > disassemble and stow in his bilge - he considered them part of his > ballast. When Hurricane Luis came along, he put them together, winched > them up out of his main salon using his topping lift, and laid them out. > He was the least worried of all of us, even when a 55' Taiwanese boat > broke loose and fetched up against him. He looked at the boats pounding > out there and said "she'll hold." She did. The 55-footer came loose from > him and ended up on the beach; his boat stayed right where it was. > > Folks, that's what *I* call insurance. That man had bought himself damn > near perfect peace of mind for those situations. All that other crap > about "pay us premiums and we'll think about what to do _after_ your > boat is destroyed" is some kind of a loser's consolation prize. > Yes, this is a philosophy that I follow too. My standard every day anchor on board La Chica (32ft, 8ton) is a 55lbs CQR. To date we have never dragged. I also experienced the joys of Hurricane Luis. I was in Simpson's Lagoon, Saint Martin. I was unlucky enough to have an ex American Navy landing craft drag down on to me. Managed to extract myself but still landed on the beach. Fortunately I was the skipper of a local ferry and two - three days later La Chica was back in the water. Total damage, a few dents (there were small rocks on the beach) some scratched paint and a broken dinner plate and a wine glass. After something like that, when it comes to steel boats, I am a believer. Paul Thompson| 17982|17939|2008-08-08 04:15:23|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|Hot dip galvanising doesn't take to paint or marker crayon or grease. I have seen items that have just been galvanised with parts not galvanised because of that. When we galvanise pipes with threaded sockets welded to them we coat the threads of hexagon nipples with copper grease and screw them in the sockets to avoid filling the socket threads with zinc. The problem is it is a bit hit and miss and usually the threads are chased out with a tap. Often some force has to be used to break the nipples out and on larger ones say 2" or so a gas torch is needed to free them. Welded steel structures can distort in the galvanising bath if designed wrong. I guess it is the welding stresses relieving themselves. I have no experience of galvanising castings, but I would think that Brent's idea of a good paint job on a well cleaned preferably sand blasted bell housing is a better option. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > You could wash the zinc of the mating surfaces and around the bolt > holes with muriatic acid. Then you would have to heavily coat the > surfaces with lanolin to stop it from corroding rapidly. I doubt that > you would have any cracking problems. Big hunks of cast iron are often > galvanized. Submerged in molten in zinc , it would heat evenly. > Where I have used epoxy tar on my engine it has stuck like shit to a > blanket, for years. Next time I would epoxy the whole engine. I plan > to do it wherever accessible. > I've heard of people giving a new engine several additional coats of > paint before installing it. Not a bad idea given the extremely light > paint job most new engines come with. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Hi Paul, > > > > I would be concerned that the mating surfaces and bolt holes would need > > to be re machined if not due to distortion then from the variable > > thickness, blobs, runs etc of the galv finish. > > > > I had the prop shaft coupling sand blasted and then painted it with > > Zinga and am very pleased with the durability of finish. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > | 17983|17975|2008-08-08 07:15:05|Shane Duncan|Re: HELP keel position 31 BS|cheers cut the slot out today all went well welded in a lot of bracing will pull up the keel tomorrow ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 8, 2008 11:17:48 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: HELP keel position 31 BS Centred on the base of the mast. With the boat leveled, drop a plumb bob down from the centre of the mast and put the leading edge of the keel pipe there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The leading edge of the keel pipe  meets the hull exactly at the mast step >  Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > i have to cut the keel slot out tomorrow > > what is the position of the Brent Swain 31 single keel position > > it is not given on the plans > > so far i'm going with Toms advice and cutting the leading  edge in > line with the mast at 3410 mm from the bow > > is this correct? > >  > >  > > > >  > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Gordon Schnell > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:53:32 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 40´ Brent Swain Design > > > > Luis > > What kind of things are you looking for in the 40' Swain hull pics? > > Gord > > > > > > avedelmar wrote: > > > > > > Is there anyone who is building, or has built a 40´Swain boat that has > > > some pictures of the hull to share? > > > > > > Luis > > > > > >  > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17984|17944|2008-08-08 13:32:46|Ben Okopnik|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|On Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 03:55:29PM +1200, Paul Thompson wrote: > On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 3:30 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > Folks, that's what *I* call insurance. That man had bought himself damn > > near perfect peace of mind for those situations. All that other crap > > about "pay us premiums and we'll think about what to do _after_ your > > boat is destroyed" is some kind of a loser's consolation prize. > > Yes, this is a philosophy that I follow too. My standard every day > anchor on board La Chica (32ft, 8ton) is a 55lbs CQR. To date we have > never dragged. Just to show the bottom end of that range: I'd become lazy and a little complacent over the years, and had been using a 45lb CQR as my standard anchor for Ulysses (34', 14T) - so I dragged in a 55kt blow about 4 years ago. True, it was in a really crappy bottom - thin, soupy mud - and I'd only anchored there the day before so the hook hadn't had a chance to set well in the hard mud underneath - but I believe that a 55-pounder would have held. > I also experienced the joys of Hurricane Luis. I was in Simpson's > Lagoon, Saint Martin. As I recall, you guys got it much worse than we did (I was in Boqueron, on the west coast of PR.) I'd heard something like "20 boats out of 300 left floating in the entire lagoon"; don't know how true that was. I do know that a friend of mine bought an entire standing rig for his catamaran there, cheap, a couple of years later off one that had sunk there during Luis. > I was unlucky enough to have an ex American Navy > landing craft drag down on to me. Managed to extract myself but still > landed on the beach. Fortunately I was the skipper of a local ferry > and two - three days later La Chica was back in the water. Total > damage, a few dents (there were small rocks on the beach) some > scratched paint and a broken dinner plate and a wine glass. > > After something like that, when it comes to steel boats, I am a believer. Ditto. A Kiwi friend of mine, Alf, had his home-built boat shoved under water by a 100-ton commercial craft that had broken loose during Marilyn in St. Thomas; he refloated it, pumped it out, flushed the engine and pressure-washed the interior, and was pretty much done, as I recall. I think he'd lost some clothes and electronics. Oh yeah... he also jacked out a big dent in the side of the hull. Any hull other than steel would have been mostly shreds or chips too small to find. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17985|17944|2008-08-08 14:40:21|brentswain38|Re: cockpit design ideas "bright spark moment"|The only insurance policy I ever made a claim on was travel health insurance from Travel Underwrtiters Worldwide Mediclaim , when I fell off a boat and broke my wrist and pelvis. They demanded a credit card number for them to put all my expenses on and force me to go to court to get reimbursed. So I have little faith in insurance companies. Others I have met have had similar experiences with that company. I believe the Sleavin family , who were run over by a freighter off the north end of New Zealand would have all survived had they been in a steel boat. Moitessier had a photo of a 40 footer in 1984 yachting magazine, of a 40 footer , 3/16th plate , that had been T boned by a 35,000 ton freighter. It had a dent the size of a dinghy midships but wasn't leaking a drop. I later heard she sailed to Tahiti, where repairs were too expensive, so sailed to New Zealand before repairing the damage. I was told of an aluminium boat that has been rolled under the full length of a freighter in the Caribean. She looked like a bucket that had been trampled in a buffalo stampede, but wasn't leaking a drop. The next port she arived in, the other yachties took one look and started talking excitedly about switching to metal boats. Another form of insuraance is not spending huge amounts of money on a boat , concentrating on functional expenses and avoiding that which values style over substance. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 03:55:29PM +1200, Paul Thompson wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 3:30 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > Folks, that's what *I* call insurance. That man had bought himself damn > > > near perfect peace of mind for those situations. All that other crap > > > about "pay us premiums and we'll think about what to do _after_ your > > > boat is destroyed" is some kind of a loser's consolation prize. > > > > Yes, this is a philosophy that I follow too. My standard every day > > anchor on board La Chica (32ft, 8ton) is a 55lbs CQR. To date we have > > never dragged. > > Just to show the bottom end of that range: I'd become lazy and a little > complacent over the years, and had been using a 45lb CQR as my standard > anchor for Ulysses (34', 14T) - so I dragged in a 55kt blow about 4 > years ago. True, it was in a really crappy bottom - thin, soupy mud - > and I'd only anchored there the day before so the hook hadn't had a > chance to set well in the hard mud underneath - but I believe that a > 55-pounder would have held. > > > I also experienced the joys of Hurricane Luis. I was in Simpson's > > Lagoon, Saint Martin. > > As I recall, you guys got it much worse than we did (I was in Boqueron, > on the west coast of PR.) I'd heard something like "20 boats out of 300 > left floating in the entire lagoon"; don't know how true that was. I do > know that a friend of mine bought an entire standing rig for his > catamaran there, cheap, a couple of years later off one that had sunk > there during Luis. > > > I was unlucky enough to have an ex American Navy > > landing craft drag down on to me. Managed to extract myself but still > > landed on the beach. Fortunately I was the skipper of a local ferry > > and two - three days later La Chica was back in the water. Total > > damage, a few dents (there were small rocks on the beach) some > > scratched paint and a broken dinner plate and a wine glass. > > > > After something like that, when it comes to steel boats, I am a believer. > > Ditto. A Kiwi friend of mine, Alf, had his home-built boat shoved under > water by a 100-ton commercial craft that had broken loose during Marilyn > in St. Thomas; he refloated it, pumped it out, flushed the engine and > pressure-washed the interior, and was pretty much done, as I recall. I > think he'd lost some clothes and electronics. Oh yeah... he also jacked > out a big dent in the side of the hull. Any hull other than steel would > have been mostly shreds or chips too small to find. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 17986|17939|2008-08-08 17:18:53|Paul Wilson|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|Thanks to all. I think I will rely on paint rather than risk damaging the bell housing. I had galvanized some engine brackets and they are spotless after 20 years so thought it might be nice but it's not worth the risk. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 8:15 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing Hot dip galvanising doesn't take to paint or marker crayon or grease. I have seen items that have just been galvanised with parts not galvanised because of that. When we galvanise pipes with threaded sockets welded to them we coat the threads of hexagon nipples with copper grease and screw them in the sockets to avoid filling the socket threads with zinc. The problem is it is a bit hit and miss and usually the threads are chased out with a tap. Often some force has to be used to break the nipples out and on larger ones say 2" or so a gas torch is needed to free them. Welded steel structures can distort in the galvanising bath if designed wrong. I guess it is the welding stresses relieving themselves. I have no experience of galvanising castings, but I would think that Brent's idea of a good paint job on a well cleaned preferably sand blasted bell housing is a better option. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brentswain38" wrote: > > You could wash the zinc of the mating surfaces and around the bolt > holes with muriatic acid. Then you would have to heavily coat the > surfaces with lanolin to stop it from corroding rapidly. I doubt that > you would have any cracking problems. Big hunks of cast iron are often > galvanized. Submerged in molten in zinc , it would heat evenly. > Where I have used epoxy tar on my engine it has stuck like shit to a > blanket, for years. Next time I would epoxy the whole engine. I plan > to do it wherever accessible. > I've heard of people giving a new engine several additional coats of > paint before installing it. Not a bad idea given the extremely light > paint job most new engines come with. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Hi Paul, > > > > I would be concerned that the mating surfaces and bolt holes would need > > to be re machined if not due to distortion then from the variable > > thickness, blobs, runs etc of the galv finish. > > > > I had the prop shaft coupling sand blasted and then painted it with > > Zinga and am very pleased with the durability of finish. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1599 - Release Date: 8/7/2008 8:49 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17987|17939|2008-08-08 20:06:01|Aaron Williams|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|Has anyone considered powder coating? There is a zinc powder first coat then top coat with color preference. http://www.powderbuythepound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=46_89&products_id=543&osCsid=eu691unl2mgnmhetddp7a4rh55%c2%a0   I have a small shop set up for use in my metal art buisness. If done correctly it takes forever to sandblast a cured powdercoat back off. Aaron --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 1:18 PM Thanks to all. I think I will rely on paint rather than risk damaging the bell housing. I had galvanized some engine brackets and they are spotless after 20 years so thought it might be nice but it's not worth the risk. Cheers, Paul Recent Activity  8 New MembersVisit Your Group Y! Sports for TV Game Day Companion Live fantasy league & game stats on TV. Yahoo! News Get it all here Breaking news to entertainment news Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17988|17939|2008-08-08 20:24:08|brentswain38|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|Sandblasting and a spray on zinc primer that's 85% or more zinc dry film, works great for propane tanks. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Has anyone considered powder coating? There is a zinc powder first coat then top coat with color preference. http://www.powderbuythepound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=46_89&products_id=543&osCsid=eu691unl2mgnmhetddp7a4rh55 > > I have a small shop set up for use in my metal art buisness. If done correctly it takes forever to sandblast a cured powdercoat back off. > Aaron > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 1:18 PM > > > > > > > Thanks to all. I think I will rely on paint rather than risk damaging the > bell housing. I had galvanized some engine brackets and they are spotless > after 20 years so thought it might be nice but it's not worth the risk. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > Recent Activity > > > 8 > New MembersVisit Your Group > > > Y! Sports for TV > Game Day Companion > Live fantasy league > & game stats on TV. > > Yahoo! News > Get it all here > Breaking news to > entertainment news > > Yahoo! Finance > It's Now Personal > Guides, news, > advice & more. > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17989|17939|2008-08-08 21:26:36|martin demers|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|could someone powder coat the boat hull ? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: akenai@... > Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 17:05:55 -0700 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing > > > Has anyone considered powder coating? There is a zinc powder first coat then top coat with color preference. http://www.powderbuythepound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=46_89&products_id=543&osCsid=eu691unl2mgnmhetddp7a4rh55 > > I have a small shop set up for use in my metal art buisness. If done correctly it takes forever to sandblast a cured powdercoat back off. > Aaron > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 1:18 PM > > Thanks to all. I think I will rely on paint rather than risk damaging the > bell housing. I had galvanized some engine brackets and they are spotless > after 20 years so thought it might be nice but it's not worth the risk. > > Cheers, Paul > > Recent Activity > > 8 > New MembersVisit Your Group > > Y! Sports for TV > Game Day Companion > Live fantasy league > & game stats on TV. > > Yahoo! News > Get it all here > Breaking news to > entertainment news > > Yahoo! Finance > It's Now Personal > Guides, news, > advice & more. > . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 17990|17939|2008-08-08 21:34:35|Aaron Williams|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|I have wondered about that myself. It would take a big oven at 400deg F and it would still have to be sand blasted. There are some oven big enough for truck frames and even small airplane frames. --- On Fri, 8/8/08, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 5:25 PM could someone powder coat the boat hull ? Martin. ____________ _________ _________ __ > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: akenai@yahoo. com > Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 17:05:55 -0700 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing > > > Has anyone considered powder coating? There is a zinc powder first coat then top coat with color preference. http://www.powderbu ythepound. com/catalog/ product_info. php?cPath= 46_89&products_ id=543&osCsid= eu691unl2mgnmhet ddp7a4rh55 > > I have a small shop set up for use in my metal art buisness. If done correctly it takes forever to sandblast a cured powdercoat back off. > Aaron > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 1:18 PM > > Thanks to all. I think I will rely on paint rather than risk damaging the > bell housing. I had galvanized some engine brackets and they are spotless > after 20 years so thought it might be nice but it's not worth the risk. > > Cheers, Paul > > Recent Activity > > 8 > New MembersVisit Your Group > > Y! Sports for TV > Game Day Companion > Live fantasy league > & game stats on TV. > > Yahoo! News > Get it all here > Breaking news to > entertainment news > > Yahoo! Finance > It's Now Personal > Guides, news, > advice & more. > . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17991|17939|2008-08-08 23:20:03|Tom Mann|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|One of the dairies I work for had a utility box built for a big truck and had it powdercoated, the outside held up realy well but the inside of cabnets have rusted up pretty bad, as far as we can tell its from being wet for long durations, mainly the bottoms of cabnets with big flakey chunks coming off. The truck was mainly used for show pulling cattle trailer and never seen the real abuse of a service truck. Tom On 8/8/08, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have wondered about that myself. It would take a big oven at 400deg F and > it would still have to be sand blasted. There are some oven big enough for > truck frames and even small airplane frames. > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, martin demers wrote: > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 5:25 PM > > > > > > > > > could someone powder coat the boat hull ? > > Martin. > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > From: akenai@yahoo. com > > Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 17:05:55 -0700 > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing > > > > > > Has anyone considered powder coating? There is a zinc powder first coat > then top coat with color preference. http://www.powderbu ythepound. > com/catalog/ product_info. php?cPath= 46_89&products_ id=543&osCsid= > eu691unl2mgnmhet ddp7a4rh55 > > > > I have a small shop set up for use in my metal art buisness. If done > correctly it takes forever to sandblast a cured powdercoat back off. > > Aaron > > > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > From: Paul Wilson > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 1:18 PM > > > > Thanks to all. I think I will rely on paint rather than risk damaging the > > bell housing. I had galvanized some engine brackets and they are spotless > > after 20 years so thought it might be nice but it's not worth the risk. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > Recent Activity > > > > 8 > > New MembersVisit Your Group > > > > Y! Sports for TV > > Game Day Companion > > Live fantasy league > > & game stats on TV. > > > > Yahoo! News > > Get it all here > > Breaking news to > > entertainment news > > > > Yahoo! Finance > > It's Now Personal > > Guides, news, > > advice & more. > > . > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17992|17992|2008-08-09 08:21:05|jumbolo|design|Hi all! I'm new to this group and very exited about the origami technique. I've discovered the method visiting the YAGO-31 website then searching a bit. Eager to try the feasibility, I've tried to design my own (model) boat: I took a normal, modern, planant hull construction plan and reproduced it in 3D, then flattened the surface, increased the size, printed it, stitched to a compound resin/aluminium plate I found around, cutted it and hot glued. Not too bad for the first try, the only problem I had probably was that the boat type wasn't the right one, the front of the "boat" was too straight, too much material on the corner and the bottom that finally stressed the whole front, up to crack it. -------------------------- \ ------ \ \ . too much here '---------. '------------------- Questions for you: - should the front be more rounded in order to weld it right (as in the boat in the front page of the group)? - should the front have some cuts too (as in the boat in the front page of the group)? - how do I know where the cuts are best put? - what software do you use to design the hull (if any)? - what software do you use to flat the surfaces (if any)? Great boats I've seen around, kind regards, Nicola| 17993|17975|2008-08-09 10:23:25|Tom Mann|Re: HELP keel position 31 BS|Hello Shane Your boats looking good. Looks like the 31' is a nice sized boat. Sure glad Brent caught your question and replied before you cut, It was making me a bit nervice not knowing for sure. I like the idea of the aluminum cabin structure and can see a lot of benifit from it,Please keep us informed of how it is going. I am a bit curiose though with single keel it would lower the cg a bit vs the twins, then the alumunum cabin being lighter would allso lower a bit more. I am wondering If it would be able to carry a little more sail area or if you could lighten up balast a bit and use that for more storage weight to keep it at desighned displacment. Tom On 8/8/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > cheers > cut the slot out today > all went well > welded in a lot of bracing > will pull up the keel tomorrow > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 8, 2008 11:17:48 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: HELP keel position 31 BS > > Centred on the base of the mast. With the boat leveled, drop a plumb > bob down from the centre of the mast and put the leading edge of the > keel pipe there. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > The leading edge of the keel pipe meets the hull exactly at the > mast step > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > > wrote: > > > > > > i have to cut the keel slot out tomorrow > > > what is the position of the Brent Swain 31 single keel position > > > it is not given on the plans > > > so far i'm going with Toms advice and cutting the leading edge in > > line with the mast at 3410 mm from the bow > > > is this correct? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Gordon Schnell > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:53:32 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 40´ Brent Swain Design > > > > > > Luis > > > What kind of things are you looking for in the 40' Swain hull pics? > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > avedelmar wrote: > > > > > > > > Is there anyone who is building, or has built a 40´Swain boat > that has > > > > some pictures of the hull to share? > > > > > > > > Luis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 17994|17994|2008-08-09 16:59:15|Doug|Good? Old Epoxy|I have access to a lot of old Sherwin Williams two part marine epoxy paint for $5 a gallon if I take everything. It varies in age but some of it is up to 6 years old. It has always been stored above freezing. It is also a mix of types of marine paint. Epoxide Potable Water Epoxy Macropoxy 646 Potable Water Epoxy (2-part) Tile-Clad - Waterbased Epoxy Primer Epoxy Mastic Coating Does anyone have experience with using epoxy paint that is way beyond it's expiration period? Perhapses it would be good for the hull interior and as second coat over fresh epoxy on the hull exterior? Thanks Doug & Kay Jackson www.submarineboat.com| 17995|17994|2008-08-09 18:35:53|brentswain38|Re: Good? Old Epoxy|I've used 15 year old epoxy with no problems. It can need the lumps strained out of it, but mix a bit up, and if it goes off, it's OK. Epoxy is epoxy. Only the thicknes of it dry film counts. Use it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > I have access to a lot of old Sherwin Williams two part marine epoxy > paint for $5 a gallon if I take everything. It varies in age but some > of it is up to 6 years old. It has always been stored above freezing. > > It is also a mix of types of marine paint. > Epoxide Potable Water Epoxy > Macropoxy 646 Potable Water Epoxy (2-part) > Tile-Clad - Waterbased Epoxy Primer > Epoxy Mastic Coating > > Does anyone have experience with using epoxy paint that is way beyond > it's expiration period? > > Perhapses it would be good for the hull interior and as second coat > over fresh epoxy on the hull exterior? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > www.submarineboat.com > | 17996|17975|2008-08-09 18:39:27|brentswain38|Re: HELP keel position 31 BS|I think variations in the amount of junk you put aboard would make a much bigger difference, making this a redundant point. The advantage of the rig I've designed is that it takes a soleing mainsail, which are a dime a dozen. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello Shane > Your boats looking good. Looks like the 31' is a nice sized boat. > Sure glad Brent caught your question and replied before you cut, It was > making me a bit nervice not knowing for sure. > I like the idea of the aluminum cabin structure and can see a lot of > benifit from it,Please keep us informed of how it is going. > I am a bit curiose though with single keel it would lower the cg a bit vs > the twins, then the alumunum cabin being lighter would allso lower a bit > more. I am wondering If it would be able to carry a little more sail area or > if you could lighten up balast a bit and use that for more storage weight to > keep it at desighned displacment. > Tom > > > On 8/8/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > cheers > > cut the slot out today > > all went well > > welded in a lot of bracing > > will pull up the keel tomorrow > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, August 8, 2008 11:17:48 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: HELP keel position 31 BS > > > > Centred on the base of the mast. With the boat leveled, drop a plumb > > bob down from the centre of the mast and put the leading edge of the > > keel pipe there. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > The leading edge of the keel pipe meets the hull exactly at the > > mast step > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > i have to cut the keel slot out tomorrow > > > > what is the position of the Brent Swain 31 single keel position > > > > it is not given on the plans > > > > so far i'm going with Toms advice and cutting the leading edge in > > > line with the mast at 3410 mm from the bow > > > > is this correct? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Gordon Schnell > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:53:32 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 40´ Brent Swain Design > > > > > > > > Luis > > > > What kind of things are you looking for in the 40' Swain hull pics? > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > > > > avedelmar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Is there anyone who is building, or has built a 40´Swain boat > > that has > > > > > some pictures of the hull to share? > > > > > > > > > > Luis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 17997|17997|2008-08-09 19:33:08|brentswain38|Jesse|Jesse I have that drawing you asked for .I lost your email address.Where in Calgary do I send it? Brent| 17998|17994|2008-08-09 20:17:47|T & D Cain|Re: Good? Old Epoxy|I have just finished a replacement wooden support on a Laser dinghy trailer using epoxy adhesives which are 23 yo. The mix and cure rate seemed the same as when the batch was new. The test piece performs the same as original. Provided that the containers remain properly sealed, I suspect the end of life is out in the future somewhere. Paints with various fillers may be different, but not too any great extent. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Sunday, 10 August 2008 08:06 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Good? Old Epoxy I've used 15 year old epoxy with no problems. It can need the lumps strained out of it, but mix a bit up, and if it goes off, it's OK. Epoxy is epoxy. Only the thicknes of it dry film counts. Use it. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 17999|17994|2008-08-09 21:02:06|Tom Mann|Re: Good? Old Epoxy|Sounds Like a heck of a deal to me as long as the cans havnt been opened, I have been paying about $45 a gallon for the 646 and thats with about a 50% savings. can you get a deal on the reducer to , its around $24 a gallon. The 646 they say dont add tint it if using below water line or for water barrier , should be eather black or mill white. Tom On 8/9/08, Doug wrote: > > I have access to a lot of old Sherwin Williams two part marine epoxy > paint for $5 a gallon if I take everything. It varies in age but some > of it is up to 6 years old. It has always been stored above freezing. > > It is also a mix of types of marine paint. > Epoxide Potable Water Epoxy > Macropoxy 646 Potable Water Epoxy (2-part) > Tile-Clad - Waterbased Epoxy Primer > Epoxy Mastic Coating > > Does anyone have experience with using epoxy paint that is way beyond > it's expiration period? > > Perhapses it would be good for the hull interior and as second coat > over fresh epoxy on the hull exterior? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18000|18000|2008-08-09 21:05:57|Ben Okopnik|Icebox liner|I've got an odd-shaped space in my galley; every time I look at it, it keeps telling me that it wants to be an icebox. I've managed to resist it so far, but I know the day is coming soon... I've already lined the inside with 4" of foam, which leaves me with a nice 20"W x 12"D x 20"H box. This is actually somewhat bigger than I strictly need: even a standard 25-lb. block of ice is only 10" x 10" x 7", and two of those would fit in the bottom side-by-side, leaving me a (roughly) 20"W x 12"D x 13"H space for food, which is about 75% more than I'm usually planning to use. The problem that I'm running into now is that building the inside liner is a serious pain for me. Fiberglass and I are not good friends (often, we're not even on speaking terms.) I mean, I know the process: nail up a box, line it with cloth, tape the inside edges, fill the corners with Cabosil (tight corners are hell to clean), sand the thing, put a finish coat on it... frankly, at my skill level, I'm looking at maybe two or three days of solid work - and probably more when I screw it up. I kid you not: I'm that slow with it. In other words, it's not a good bet for me. I've also considered getting a box made out of SS - but again, I'm going outside my own abilities (I've done a little TIG welding in the past, but I don't have a TIG box these days. Or a shear. Or a sheet-metal brake.) Pricing one is a good way to get a heart attack: the _lowest_ price I got was almost $400, and the guy would get it to me "sometime in the next two months." At this point, I'm wondering about using some kind of a hard plastic box. If I can find one in that size, drop it in, and seal the top edges to the surrounding wood with some kind of glop, I'll be in the clover. Does anybody have any suggestions on where I can find something like that? Any other ideas on making this easy are also highly welcome. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *|