18001|18000|2008-08-09 21:24:01|Wesley Cox|Re: Icebox liner|How do you feel about plastic welding and using sheet plastic? ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 8:04 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Icebox liner I've got an odd-shaped space in my galley; every time I look at it, it keeps telling me that it wants to be an icebox. I've managed to resist it so far, but I know the day is coming soon... I've already lined the inside with 4" of foam, which leaves me with a nice 20"W x 12"D x 20"H box. This is actually somewhat bigger than I strictly need: even a standard 25-lb. block of ice is only 10" x 10" x 7", and two of those would fit in the bottom side-by-side, leaving me a (roughly) 20"W x 12"D x 13"H space for food, which is about 75% more than I'm usually planning to use. The problem that I'm running into now is that building the inside liner is a serious pain for me. Fiberglass and I are not good friends (often, we're not even on speaking terms.) I mean, I know the process: nail up a box, line it with cloth, tape the inside edges, fill the corners with Cabosil (tight corners are hell to clean), sand the thing, put a finish coat on it... frankly, at my skill level, I'm looking at maybe two or three days of solid work - and probably more when I screw it up. I kid you not: I'm that slow with it. In other words, it's not a good bet for me. I've also considered getting a box made out of SS - but again, I'm going outside my own abilities (I've done a little TIG welding in the past, but I don't have a TIG box these days. Or a shear. Or a sheet-metal brake.) Pricing one is a good way to get a heart attack: the _lowest_ price I got was almost $400, and the guy would get it to me "sometime in the next two months." At this point, I'm wondering about using some kind of a hard plastic box. If I can find one in that size, drop it in, and seal the top edges to the surrounding wood with some kind of glop, I'll be in the clover. Does anybody have any suggestions on where I can find something like that? Any other ideas on making this easy are also highly welcome. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1602 - Release Date: 8/9/2008 1:22 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18002|18000|2008-08-10 01:46:13|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Icebox liner|Or you could glue acrylic together to make your box.? Aquariums are made this way. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT6Ow_cBTps --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Wesley Cox To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 8:23 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Icebox liner How do you feel about plastic welding and using sheet plastic? ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 8:04 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Icebox liner I've got an odd-shaped space in my galley; every time I look at it, it keeps telling me that it wants to be an icebox. I've managed to resist it so far, but I know the day is coming soon... I've already lined the inside with 4" of foam, which leaves me with a nice 20"W x 12"D x 20"H box. This is actually somewhat bigger than I strictly need: even a standard 25-lb. block of ice is only 10" x 10" x 7", and two of those would fit in the bottom side-by-side, leaving me a (roughly) 20"W x 12"D x 13"H space for food, which is about 75% more than I'm usually planning to use. The problem that I'm running into now is that building the inside liner is a serious pain for me. Fiberglass and I are not good friends (often, we're not even on speaking terms.) I mean, I know the process: nail up a box, line it with cloth, tape the inside edges, fill the corners with Cabosil (tight corners are hell to clean), sand the thing, put a finish coat on it... frankly, at my skill level, I'm looking at maybe two or three days of solid work - and probably more when I screw it up. I kid you not: I'm that slow with it. In other words, it's not a good bet for me. I've also considered getting a box made out of SS - but again, I'm going outside my own abilities (I've done a little TIG welding in the past, but I don't have a TIG box these days. Or a shear. Or a sheet-metal brake.) Pricing one is a good way to get a heart attack: the _lowest_ price I got was almost $400, and the guy would get it to me "sometime in the next two months." At this point, I'm wondering about using some kind of a hard plastic box. If I can find one in that size, drop it in, and seal the top edges to the surrounding wood with some kind of glop, I'll be in the clover. Does anybody have any suggestions on where I can find something like that? Any other ideas on making this easy are also highly welcome. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1602 - Release Date: 8/9/2008 1:22 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18003|17994|2008-08-10 01:48:28|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Good? Old Epoxy|Thanks to all.? This is a great group. If there is a cheaper way someone here has already tried it.? :) --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 8:02 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Good? Old Epoxy Sounds Like a heck of a deal to me as long as the cans havnt been opened, I have been paying about $45 a gallon for the 646 and thats with about a 50% savings. can you get a deal on the reducer to , its around $24 a gallon. The 646 they say dont add tint it if using below water line or for water barrier , should be eather black or mill white. Tom On 8/9/08, Doug wrote: > > I have access to a lot of old Sherwin Williams two part marine epoxy > paint for $5 a gallon if I take everything. It varies in age but some > of it is up to 6 years old. It has always been stored above freezing. > > It is also a mix of types of marine paint. > Epoxide Potable Water Epoxy > Macropoxy 646 Potable Water Epoxy (2-part) > Tile-Clad - Waterbased Epoxy Primer > Epoxy Mastic Coating > > Does anyone have experience with using epoxy paint that is way beyond > it's expiration period? > > Perhapses it would be good for the hull interior and as second coat > over fresh epoxy on the hull exterior? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18004|18000|2008-08-10 04:21:24|sae140|Re: Icebox liner|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > I've got an odd-shaped space in my galley; every time I look at it, it > keeps telling me that it wants to be an icebox. > At this point, I'm wondering about using some kind of a hard plastic > box. If I can find one in that size, drop it in, and seal the top edges > to the surrounding wood with some kind of glop, I'll be in the clover. > Does anybody have any suggestions on where I can find something like > that? Any other ideas on making this easy are also highly welcome. Ben - last year I spent an hour in awe watching a guy welding/ repairing a plastic superstructure on a commercial RIB - he was using some kind of hot-air gun and filler rods in a manner similar to TIG welding. The plastic was a blue-grey colour, a kind of hard rigid PVC which comes in sheets and which I've seen used in industry to make chemical tanks and such like. Same material is used as industrial PVC pressure pipes - I would guess it's available world-wide. I can think of dozens of uses for this stuff on a boat - an ice-box liner would be one. I think ABS is similar, but you might need to do some research as some of these plastics can be easily welded, some less so: http://www.merseymetals.co.uk/plastics.html Colin| 18005|18000|2008-08-10 04:37:28|sae140|Re: Icebox liner|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > I've got an odd-shaped space in my galley; every time I look at it, it > > keeps telling me that it wants to be an icebox. > > > At this point, I'm wondering about using some kind of a hard plastic > > box. If I can find one in that size, drop it in, and seal the top edges > > to the surrounding wood with some kind of glop, I'll be in the clover. > > Does anybody have any suggestions on where I can find something like > > that? Any other ideas on making this easy are also highly welcome. > > > Ben - last year I spent an hour in awe watching a guy welding/ > repairing a plastic superstructure on a commercial RIB - he was using > some kind of hot-air gun and filler rods in a manner similar to TIG > welding. The plastic was a blue-grey colour, a kind of hard rigid PVC > which comes in sheets and which I've seen used in industry to make > chemical tanks and such like. Same material is used as industrial PVC > pressure pipes - I would guess it's available world-wide. I can think > of dozens of uses for this stuff on a boat - an ice-box liner would be > one. I think ABS is similar, but you might need to do some research as > some of these plastics can be easily welded, some less so: > http://www.merseymetals.co.uk/plastics.html > > Colin > Pity there's no EDIT facility ... I've just found these: http://www.twi.co.uk/content/jk56.html http://www.twi.co.uk/content/jk56b.html| 18006|17939|2008-08-10 11:05:39|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|Brent, you mentioned "Sandblasting and a spray on zinc primer that's 85% or more zinc dry film, works great for propane tanks. Brent" Which brand from where locally can I find this stuff?? Also, I don't know about how powder coating stands up under water but I just bought a new bucked for the backhoe & was amazed at how long the powercoating lasted Cheers, Shane __________________________________________________________________ Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/| 18007|17903|2008-08-10 12:21:03|SHANE ROTHWELL|Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|Hi Guys, this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg of Oigamimajic perhaps?) His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that shuts his bloody gob. Cheers, Shane 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@... tazmannusa Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) Hello All Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple weeks ago, well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. what amazes me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting me down. I am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont like Brents origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were doing then why the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment about me actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. Tom A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in the know", Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed smoker, here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the origamiboats group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on my visual inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of his builds & have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an "all-position" stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up or shut up, Brent. For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the origamiboats web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue at hand, was a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex Christie - by Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read Brent's remarks, I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is that Brent did a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and there were few - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been dressed. Alex was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, the boat was mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the hullsides, due to the tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat for at least 2 years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of protection(pictures are available for verification) . I felt that the project was worth about $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being generous. The owner of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold it, which I felt was dishonest. Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. The now past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which was advertised for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full price. While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for $100,000, more & less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than $30,0000. This is a very important consideration for the builder, who will eventually wish to sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom have built Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 years. To wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my employment is in the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have worked for other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, and Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My welds are routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started running stick at age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical engineer, but started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as a certifed welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near Vancouver, and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from the age of 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a boilermaker, in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the Philippines, in the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near future, and would not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built to his recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete with you on Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to follow. Mike __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 18008|17939|2008-08-10 15:34:34|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|With the industreal paints they have it is most likely not powder coating on the bucket. Some industrial paints the man on the street is not informed about unless they are working in a place that uses them and can't use them with out going through the factory classes. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Also, I don't know about how powder coating stands up under water but I just bought a new bucked for the backhoe & was amazed at how long the powercoating lasted > > > Cheers, > Shane > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/ > | 18009|18009|2008-08-10 15:37:39|Paul Wilson|Rust Bullet below the waterline.|Howdy, I just had some interesting correspondence with Frank Ciglar from Rust Bullet and he has given me permission to post it here. I am not sure I would go ahead and do this, but it is nice to know. Cheers, Paul From: Rust Bullet, LLC [mailto:Info@...] Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 3:34 PM To: 'Paul Wilson' Subject: RE: Below water application Hi Paul, Yes I'm saying Rust Bullet has aluminum in it. You should use a tie coat primer, check this link out to learn more about tie coat primers. http://www.boatersland.com/pet6627q.html Best regards, Frank Ciglar Customer Service Rust Bullet, LLC Info@... www.RustBullet.com 1-800-245-1600 From: Paul Wilson [mailto:opusnz@...] Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 1:28 PM To: 'Rust Bullet, LLC' Subject: RE: Below water application Hi, Can you tell me why you mention aluminum? The anti-fouling I would use would have copper in it and my hull is steel. Are you saying that the Rust Bullet has aluminum in it and needs a barrier to be compatible with copper antifouling? Thanks for your help, Paul From: Rust Bullet, LLC [mailto:Info@...] Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 4:24 AM To: 'Paul Wilson' Cc: 'Lil Grabinsky' Subject: RE: Below water application Hi Paul, Rust Bullet is an excellent barrier coat. However, I believe it does require a primer as a tie coat between it and bottom paint that's compatible with aluminum. You can check these out and decide for yourself what is best for you. Pettit Specialty Tie Coat Primer and Pettit VIVID antifouling paint or Interlux Trilux products. When Rust Bullet will not transfer to a gloved finger tip it is ready for another coat. In the boating community it is recommended that you have a DFT of 12-15 mils (4 coats) depending on application method. Best regards, Frank Ciglar Customer Service Rust Bullet, LLC Info@... www.RustBullet.com 1-800-245-1600 From: Paul Wilson [mailto:opusnz@...] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 3:21 PM To: info@... Subject: Below water application Hi, I have a steel boat and I understand that Rust Bullet is Ok immersed in sea water. Can you tell me if it can be top-coated with antifouling paint? I have heard reports of antifouling paint not adhering well to Rust Bullet and falling off. Would you use an epoxy tie-coat before the antifouling after sanding the rust bullet or apply while the Rust Bullet is still "tacky"? Thanks and cheers, Paul Wilson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18010|18000|2008-08-10 18:21:16|edward_stoneuk|Re: Icebox liner|Ben, Colin, I have worked where they used hot air gun welders to weld polypropylene and amedium density polyethylene sheet and pipe to make tanks, ventilation ducts, condensate traps and so on out of sheet and pipe. They used routers and woodworking motor saws and planers and hotair guns to shape the components. ABS and PVC pipe and fittings can be solvent cement welded so I guess the sheet can as well. PVC gets brittle at low temperatures so I would not use it. ABS should be OK though. It would be best to check the materials data sheet for its temperature range. The problem is making the corner fillets to help cleaning. With regard to found objects; the stainless steel insides of a washing machine is the nearest I can think of or the inside of a small chest freezer if you could get one free to cut down and find the correct adhesive for it. For short time use a plastic garbage bag would do. Regards, Ted| 18011|18000|2008-08-10 18:57:15|Tom Mann|Re: Icebox liner|Hello Ben I have a friend of mine who does sheet metal and I have seen him make ice boxes and such for people using 26 and 24 gage galvanized sheets, they don't last forever but they do last quite a few years. They use a lock former on the corners they cant brake and solder the corners water tight. If you have a local sheet metal shop mainly some one that does air ducks roof jacks and stuff they could make you up somthing pretty quick . Tom On 8/9/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > I've got an odd-shaped space in my galley; every time I look at it, it > keeps telling me that it wants to be an icebox. I've managed to resist > it so far, but I know the day is coming soon... > > I've already lined the inside with 4" of foam, which leaves me with a > nice 20"W x 12"D x 20"H box. This is actually somewhat bigger than I > strictly need: even a standard 25-lb. block of ice is only 10" x 10" x > 7", and two of those would fit in the bottom side-by-side, leaving me a > (roughly) 20"W x 12"D x 13"H space for food, which is about 75% more > than I'm usually planning to use. > > The problem that I'm running into now is that building the inside liner > is a serious pain for me. Fiberglass and I are not good friends (often, > we're not even on speaking terms.) I mean, I know the process: nail up a > box, line it with cloth, tape the inside edges, fill the corners with > Cabosil (tight corners are hell to clean), sand the thing, put a finish > coat on it... frankly, at my skill level, I'm looking at maybe two or > three days of solid work - and probably more when I screw it up. I kid > you not: I'm that slow with it. In other words, it's not a good bet for > me. > > I've also considered getting a box made out of SS - but again, I'm going > outside my own abilities (I've done a little TIG welding in the past, > but I don't have a TIG box these days. Or a shear. Or a sheet-metal > brake.) Pricing one is a good way to get a heart attack: the _lowest_ > price I got was almost $400, and the guy would get it to me "sometime in > the next two months." > > At this point, I'm wondering about using some kind of a hard plastic > box. If I can find one in that size, drop it in, and seal the top edges > to the surrounding wood with some kind of glop, I'll be in the clover. > Does anybody have any suggestions on where I can find something like > that? Any other ideas on making this easy are also highly welcome. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18012|18000|2008-08-10 20:27:30|David Frantz|Re: Icebox liner|Hi Ben; You might want to look at the big industrial suppliers like McMaster- Carr, MSC or the like in their material handling sections. You ought to be able to find bins of fiberglass or plastic in that size. Many of them will have molded in grooves for shelving. The electronic supply houses would be worth a look also. Ark-Mills is one brand that has a wide variety. All that being said though you might just want to tough of out and do a custom Fiberglas unit. Look at it as a skill building opportunity. Another suggestion would be to find a local plastics supply house and get your self some sheet fiberglas and tape it together. Tape as in fiberglas and resin. Cut the sheet material with normal wood working tools. Just realize Fiberglas is very abrasive and cutting edges won't last. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 9, 2008, at 9:04 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > I've got an odd-shaped space in my galley; every time I look at it, it > keeps telling me that it wants to be an icebox. I've managed to resist > it so far, but I know the day is coming soon... > > I've already lined the inside with 4" of foam, which leaves me with a > nice 20"W x 12"D x 20"H box. This is actually somewhat bigger than I > strictly need: even a standard 25-lb. block of ice is only 10" x 10" x > 7", and two of those would fit in the bottom side-by-side, leaving > me a > (roughly) 20"W x 12"D x 13"H space for food, which is about 75% more > than I'm usually planning to use. > > The problem that I'm running into now is that building the inside > liner > is a serious pain for me. Fiberglass and I are not good friends > (often, > we're not even on speaking terms.) I mean, I know the process: nail > up a > box, line it with cloth, tape the inside edges, fill the corners with > Cabosil (tight corners are hell to clean), sand the thing, put a > finish > coat on it... frankly, at my skill level, I'm looking at maybe two or > three days of solid work - and probably more when I screw it up. I kid > you not: I'm that slow with it. In other words, it's not a good bet > for > me. > > I've also considered getting a box made out of SS - but again, I'm > going > outside my own abilities (I've done a little TIG welding in the past, > but I don't have a TIG box these days. Or a shear. Or a sheet-metal > brake.) Pricing one is a good way to get a heart attack: the _lowest_ > price I got was almost $400, and the guy would get it to me > "sometime in > the next two months." > > At this point, I'm wondering about using some kind of a hard plastic > box. If I can find one in that size, drop it in, and seal the top > edges > to the surrounding wood with some kind of glop, I'll be in the clover. > Does anybody have any suggestions on where I can find something like > that? Any other ideas on making this easy are also highly welcome. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18013|18000|2008-08-10 22:16:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 01:45:56AM -0400, djackson99@... wrote: > > Or you could glue acrylic together to make your box.? Aquariums are made this way. > > See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT6Ow_cBTps There's a place on-line that does acrylic boxes; they want ~$200 for one in my exact size. http://www.casesforcollectibles.com/5574.html The only problem is that I just don't see acrylic as a viable icebox material - I'm not sure that I could fill in the corners with anything that wouldn't collect dirt and mildew. I do appreciate the advice though, Doug - thanks! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18014|18000|2008-08-11 03:34:50|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Icebox liner|The thought came to mind of useing a holding tank and cutting one end off the other would have a drain. For the size it should be less then $100 and with no UV last forever. A water tank should be food safe. Jon| 18015|18015|2008-08-11 04:09:49|christinewalkerton|Freebies 11th August|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the latest freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/?page=11 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 18016|18000|2008-08-11 17:47:17|brentswain38|Re: Icebox liner|Acrylic is brittle and could crack. You could simply install a cooler, or any plastic container, and foam around it for extra insulation. I'd consider many layers of that black paper backed foil for added insulation. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 01:45:56AM -0400, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > Or you could glue acrylic together to make your box.? Aquariums are made this way. > > > > See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT6Ow_cBTps > > There's a place on-line that does acrylic boxes; they want ~$200 for one > in my exact size. > > http://www.casesforcollectibles.com/5574.html > > The only problem is that I just don't see acrylic as a viable icebox > material - I'm not sure that I could fill in the corners with anything > that wouldn't collect dirt and mildew. I do appreciate the advice > though, Doug - thanks! > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18017|17939|2008-08-11 17:49:38|brentswain38|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|Most hardware stores and auto supplies have it. I haven't found any great difference between brands. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Brent, > > you mentioned > > > "Sandblasting and a spray on zinc primer that's 85% or more zinc dry > film, works great for propane tanks. > Brent" > > > Which brand from where locally can I find this stuff?? > > > Also, I don't know about how powder coating stands up under water but I just bought a new bucked for the backhoe & was amazed at how long the powercoating lasted > > > Cheers, > Shane > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/ > | 18018|17903|2008-08-11 17:52:34|brentswain38|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with our responses. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg of Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that shuts his bloody gob. > > Cheers, > Shane > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@... tazmannusa > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > Hello All > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple weeks ago, > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. what amazes > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting me down. I > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont like Brents > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were doing then why > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment about me > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > Tom > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in the know", > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed smoker, > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the origamiboats > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on my visual > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of his builds & > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an "all-position" > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up or shut up, > Brent. > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the origamiboats > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue at hand, was > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex Christie - by > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read Brent's remarks, > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is that Brent did > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and there were few > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been dressed. Alex > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, the boat was > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the hullsides, due to the > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat for at least 2 > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of protection(pictures > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was worth about > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being generous. The owner > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold it, which I > felt was dishonest. > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. The now > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which was advertised > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full price. > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for $100,000, more & > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than $30,0000. This is > a very important consideration for the builder, who will eventually wish to > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom have built > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 years. To > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my employment is in > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have worked for > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, and > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My welds are > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started running stick at > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical engineer, but > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as a certifed > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near Vancouver, > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from the age of > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a boilermaker, > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the Philippines, in > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near future, and would > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built to his > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete with you on > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to follow. > Mike > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > | 18019|18000|2008-08-11 17:53:35|vic_lub|Re: Icebox liner|A common household plastic laundry sink is close to the dimensions mentioned... And are often onsale for less then 20 bucks... Hope this helps... Cheers TugNut| 18020|18000|2008-08-11 18:16:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 08:37:25AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > I've got an odd-shaped space in my galley; every time I look at it, it > > > keeps telling me that it wants to be an icebox. > > > > > At this point, I'm wondering about using some kind of a hard plastic > > > box. If I can find one in that size, drop it in, and seal the top > edges > > > to the surrounding wood with some kind of glop, I'll be in the clover. > > > Does anybody have any suggestions on where I can find something like > > > that? Any other ideas on making this easy are also highly welcome. > > > > > > Ben - last year I spent an hour in awe watching a guy welding/ > > repairing a plastic superstructure on a commercial RIB - he was using > > some kind of hot-air gun and filler rods in a manner similar to TIG > > welding. The plastic was a blue-grey colour, a kind of hard rigid PVC > > which comes in sheets and which I've seen used in industry to make > > chemical tanks and such like. Same material is used as industrial PVC > > pressure pipes - I would guess it's available world-wide. I can think > > of dozens of uses for this stuff on a boat - an ice-box liner would be > > one. I think ABS is similar, but you might need to do some research as > > some of these plastics can be easily welded, some less so: > > http://www.merseymetals.co.uk/plastics.html > > Pity there's no EDIT facility ... I've just found these: > http://www.twi.co.uk/content/jk56.html > http://www.twi.co.uk/content/jk56b.html Nice - thanks, Colin! Now that you mention it, I've seen something like that at a local Harbor Freight: http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=plastic+welder&Submit=Go The big unit, with the built-in air pump, is particularly appealing. On the other hand, if I can find a pre-made plastic box that fits - well, storage bins are only a few bucks. I've just tried an 18-gallon bin from Sterilite (had to cut the top off, since the molded-in handles made it too wide at the top), and it fit pretty well, except for lacking about 4" in height. Well, it would be very nice if it was a lot stiffer, too - it's pretty floppy. I'll keep looking, and I'll definitely keep this idea in mind. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18021|18000|2008-08-11 18:16:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 10:21:12PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Ben, Colin, > > I have worked where they used hot air gun welders to weld polypropylene > and amedium density polyethylene sheet and pipe to make tanks, > ventilation ducts, condensate traps and so on out of sheet and pipe. > They used routers and woodworking motor saws and planers and hotair > guns to shape the components. > > ABS and PVC pipe and fittings can be solvent cement welded so I guess > the sheet can as well. PVC gets brittle at low temperatures so I would > not use it. ABS should be OK though. It would be best to check the > materials data sheet for its temperature range. > > The problem is making the corner fillets to help cleaning. > > With regard to found objects; the stainless steel insides of a washing > machine is the nearest I can think of or the inside of a small chest > freezer if you could get one free to cut down and find the correct > adhesive for it. For short time use a plastic garbage bag would do. I suspect that most chest freezers and such are going to be more "square" than my 20x12x20 requirements - although the standard 30-quart foam coolers are made with a ratio that's surprisingly close to that (they actually _just_ fit inside.) I really like the idea of the relatively narrow, "plank on edge" shape - there's less heat loss (gain?) through the top whenever we open it. For the moment, I'm going with a trimmed-off 18-gallon plastic bin from Sterilite - it's also a pretty good fit, but takes up almost no room of its own (as opposed to the foam cooler). While we're seeing how that suits, I'm going to be giving a lot of thought to all the suggestions here. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18022|17903|2008-08-11 18:24:57|Paul Wilson|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|Although there is some great info and some really knowledgeable people on that site, but some of the forums have been taken over by some know-it-alls. Some of the posters are just spoiling for an argument and not really trying to help anyone, in my opinion. Some of them have 2000 to 3000 postings and seem to respond to anything and everything. It comes to mind that if a guy has over 3000 postings how does he ever have enough time to do anything with a boat? This forum is great since its no BS and concentrates on what is really important...getting a boat on the water. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:53 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with our responses. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg of Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that shuts his bloody gob. > > Cheers, > Shane > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@... tazmannusa > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > Hello All > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple weeks ago, > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. what amazes > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting me down. I > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont like Brents > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were doing then why > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment about me > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > Tom > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in the know", > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed smoker, > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the origamiboats > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on my visual > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of his builds & > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an "all-position" > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up or shut up, > Brent. > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the origamiboats > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue at hand, was > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex Christie - by > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read Brent's remarks, > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is that Brent did > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and there were few > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been dressed. Alex > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, the boat was > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the hullsides, due to the > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat for at least 2 > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of protection(pictures > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was worth about > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being generous. The owner > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold it, which I > felt was dishonest. > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. The now > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which was advertised > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full price. > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for $100,000, more & > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than $30,0000. This is > a very important consideration for the builder, who will eventually wish to > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom have built > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 years. To > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my employment is in > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have worked for > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, and > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My welds are > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started running stick at > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical engineer, but > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as a certifed > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near Vancouver, > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from the age of > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a boilermaker, > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the Philippines, in > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near future, and would > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built to his > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete with you on > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to follow. > Mike > > > __________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: 8/11/2008 4:59 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18023|17903|2008-08-11 18:26:43|brentswain38|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|I couldn't find his latest postings. Where did you find them? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Although there is some great info and some really knowledgeable people on > that site, but some of the forums have been taken over by some know-it-alls. > Some of the posters are just spoiling for an argument and not really trying > to help anyone, in my opinion. Some of them have 2000 to 3000 postings and > seem to respond to anything and everything. It comes to mind that if a guy > has over 3000 postings how does he ever have enough time to do anything with > a boat? This forum is great since its no BS and concentrates on what is > really important...getting a boat on the water. > > Cheers, Paul > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:53 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design > net > > There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have > responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with our > responses. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg of > Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps > mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that shuts his > bloody gob. > > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@ tazmannusa > > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > > Hello All > > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple weeks > ago, > > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. what > amazes > > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting me > down. I > > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont > like Brents > > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were doing > then why > > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment about me > > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > > Tom > > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in the > know", > > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed > smoker, > > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the origamiboats > > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on my visual > > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of his > builds & > > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an > "all-position" > > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up or > shut up, > > Brent. > > > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > origamiboats > > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue at > hand, was > > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex Christie - by > > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read Brent's > remarks, > > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is that > Brent did > > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and there > were few > > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been dressed. > Alex > > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, the > boat was > > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the hullsides, > due to the > > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat for at > least 2 > > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > protection(pictures > > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was worth > about > > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being generous. > The owner > > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold it, > which I > > felt was dishonest. > > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. The now > > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which was > advertised > > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full price. > > > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for $100,000, > more & > > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than $30,0000. > This is > > a very important consideration for the builder, who will eventually > wish to > > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom have > built > > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 > years. To > > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > employment is in > > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have worked for > > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, and > > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My welds are > > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started running > stick at > > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > engineer, but > > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as a > certifed > > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near > Vancouver, > > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from the > age of > > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > boilermaker, > > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > Philippines, in > > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near future, and > would > > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built to his > > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete with you on > > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to follow. > > Mike > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: 8/11/2008 > 4:59 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18024|17903|2008-08-11 18:43:55|Paul Wilson|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|The latest posting I found from Mike is the one on Aug 5 on the Welding a Steel Hull thread. He has only about 50 postings so he is not really the subject of my mini-rant. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. I don't agree with most of what Mike says..I suspect his motivation in criticizing your boats probably has something to do with him opening his own boat yard. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:27 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net I couldn't find his latest postings. Where did you find them? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Although there is some great info and some really knowledgeable people on > that site, but some of the forums have been taken over by some know-it-alls. > Some of the posters are just spoiling for an argument and not really trying > to help anyone, in my opinion. Some of them have 2000 to 3000 postings and > seem to respond to anything and everything. It comes to mind that if a guy > has over 3000 postings how does he ever have enough time to do anything with > a boat? This forum is great since its no BS and concentrates on what is > really important...getting a boat on the water. > > Cheers, Paul > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:53 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design > net > > There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have > responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with our > responses. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg of > Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps > mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that shuts his > bloody gob. > > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@ tazmannusa > > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > > Hello All > > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple weeks > ago, > > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. what > amazes > > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting me > down. I > > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont > like Brents > > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were doing > then why > > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment about me > > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > > Tom > > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in the > know", > > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed > smoker, > > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the origamiboats > > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on my visual > > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of his > builds & > > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an > "all-position" > > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up or > shut up, > > Brent. > > > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > origamiboats > > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue at > hand, was > > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex Christie - by > > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read Brent's > remarks, > > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is that > Brent did > > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and there > were few > > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been dressed. > Alex > > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, the > boat was > > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the hullsides, > due to the > > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat for at > least 2 > > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > protection(pictures > > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was worth > about > > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being generous. > The owner > > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold it, > which I > > felt was dishonest. > > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. The now > > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which was > advertised > > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full price. > > > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for $100,000, > more & > > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than $30,0000. > This is > > a very important consideration for the builder, who will eventually > wish to > > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom have > built > > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 > years. To > > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > employment is in > > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have worked for > > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, and > > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My welds are > > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started running > stick at > > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > engineer, but > > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as a > certifed > > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near > Vancouver, > > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from the > age of > > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > boilermaker, > > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > Philippines, in > > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near future, and > would > > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built to his > > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete with you on > > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to follow. > > Mike > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: 8/11/2008 > 4:59 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: 8/11/2008 4:59 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18025|18000|2008-08-11 18:44:04|Paul Wilson|Re: Icebox liner|HI Ben, I not sure if anyone has mentioned this but if you are using pour-in-place foam, watch out because it will keep expanding over a long period of time in a hot climate. My ice box has been OK since I used ply to line it but the hatches I made using thin glass and pour-in place foam expanded over several years until they won't shut anymore. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:09 AM To: Origami Boat list Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Icebox liner On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 10:21:12PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Ben, Colin, > > I have worked where they used hot air gun welders to weld polypropylene > and amedium density polyethylene sheet and pipe to make tanks, > ventilation ducts, condensate traps and so on out of sheet and pipe. > They used routers and woodworking motor saws and planers and hotair > guns to shape the components. > > ABS and PVC pipe and fittings can be solvent cement welded so I guess > the sheet can as well. PVC gets brittle at low temperatures so I would > not use it. ABS should be OK though. It would be best to check the > materials data sheet for its temperature range. > > The problem is making the corner fillets to help cleaning. > > With regard to found objects; the stainless steel insides of a washing > machine is the nearest I can think of or the inside of a small chest > freezer if you could get one free to cut down and find the correct > adhesive for it. For short time use a plastic garbage bag would do. I suspect that most chest freezers and such are going to be more "square" than my 20x12x20 requirements - although the standard 30-quart foam coolers are made with a ratio that's surprisingly close to that (they actually _just_ fit inside.) I really like the idea of the relatively narrow, "plank on edge" shape - there's less heat loss (gain?) through the top whenever we open it. For the moment, I'm going with a trimmed-off 18-gallon plastic bin from Sterilite - it's also a pretty good fit, but takes up almost no room of its own (as opposed to the foam cooler). While we're seeing how that suits, I'm going to be giving a lot of thought to all the suggestions here. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: 8/11/2008 4:59 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18026|18000|2008-08-11 19:16:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 09:47:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Acrylic is brittle and could crack. You could simply install a > cooler, or any plastic container, and foam around it for extra > insulation. I'd consider many layers of that black paper backed foil > for added insulation. Brent, I don't know what that is - and I'm not finding anything useful when I search the Web for "paper-backed foil". Is that something that's only available in Canada, perhaps? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18027|18000|2008-08-11 19:40:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 08:26:59PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > Hi Ben; > > You might want to look at the big industrial suppliers like McMaster- > Carr, MSC or the like in their material handling sections. You, sir, are a bad, bad man. Don't you know that stuff is worse than crack? :) McMaster-Carr, especially, is awful: you could end up spending every penny you've got before you can manage to break loose from their clutches. Or their gearboxes. Or... Anyway - I looked at them, and although they have a lot of stuff, they don't seem to have SS or heavy-duty polypro boxes in 20x12x20. The closest they get is a 20x11x30 waste basket that I could cut down... but it's tapered toward the bottom, so I'd lose a lot of space. I'll search the other sites you recommend once I get over the jitters from this dose. :) > You ought > to be able to find bins of fiberglass or plastic in that size. Many > of them will have molded in grooves for shelving. Lots of those, and they look great - and good prices, too - but no luck on the size. > The electronic > supply houses would be worth a look also. Ark-Mills is one brand > that has a wide variety. > > All that being said though you might just want to tough of out and do > a custom Fiberglas unit. Look at it as a skill building opportunity. Heh. Yeah. Part of my problem is that, living on the boat as I do, I don't have a handy workshop; everything happens RIGHT HERE in our living space. As a result, multi-day projects - especially smelly ones, like fiberglassing things - are a big hassle (read "must be negotiated with the wife".) Although she's pretty entusiastic about a good icebox, she's not going to put up with me taking away essentially *all* her galley space for days and days at a time. > Another suggestion would be to find a local plastics supply house and > get your self some sheet fiberglas and tape it together. Tape as in > fiberglas and resin. Cut the sheet material with normal wood working > tools. Just realize Fiberglas is very abrasive and cutting edges > won't last. [Nod] I've done a little work with fiberglass in the past, and it's a pain. Given that, plus my working space constraints, is why I'm trying to avoid it now - even though, from some perspectives, it may be the "best" method available (it would use every inch of the space and give me those rounded inside corners.) I may end up having to do it anyway, although I'd prefer not to. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18028|17903|2008-08-11 20:43:52|Tom Mann|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|Please not yet So far no one else is agreeing or disagreeing to what he is saying about welding. I am trying to have an inteligent conversation with him to see if he does know anything about welding or not. So far he is -2 Flux core 5x the strength of 6011 or 7018 Not anyone can check the as welded data from lincoln or esab Good chance of 6011 cracking below water line so you should use 7018 Not no proof cant name one boat that experianced this nor did anyone else chime in and confirm it and beleave me I would be the first to listen if there was a problem. I have ask him some other lagitimant questions on welding, waiting for a response. Now is his time to shine or make an ass out of himself with many listeners. Tom On 8/11/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have > responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with our > responses. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg of > Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps > mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that shuts his > bloody gob. > > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@... tazmannusa > > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > > Hello All > > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple weeks > ago, > > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. what > amazes > > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting me > down. I > > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont > like Brents > > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were doing > then why > > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment about me > > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > > Tom > > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in the > know", > > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed > smoker, > > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the origamiboats > > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on my visual > > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of his > builds & > > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an > "all-position" > > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up or > shut up, > > Brent. > > > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > origamiboats > > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue at > hand, was > > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex Christie - by > > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read Brent's > remarks, > > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is that > Brent did > > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and there > were few > > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been dressed. > Alex > > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, the > boat was > > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the hullsides, > due to the > > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat for at > least 2 > > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > protection(pictures > > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was worth > about > > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being generous. > The owner > > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold it, > which I > > felt was dishonest. > > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. The now > > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which was > advertised > > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full price. > > > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for $100,000, > more & > > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than $30,0000. > This is > > a very important consideration for the builder, who will eventually > wish to > > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom have > built > > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 > years. To > > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > employment is in > > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have worked for > > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, and > > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My welds are > > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started running > stick at > > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > engineer, but > > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as a > certifed > > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near > Vancouver, > > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from the > age of > > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > boilermaker, > > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > Philippines, in > > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near future, and > would > > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built to his > > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete with you on > > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to follow. > > Mike > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18029|17903|2008-08-11 20:55:54|brentswain38|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|His problem was his inability to force Alex to sell him his bioat at giveaway prices. I delt with his Aug 5th possting. Hayden is going great guns on Alex's boat, doing a great job and will probably be launching htis fall.It is as fair as any steel boat I've seen except for the overwelding on the anchor well bottom. Even that is noat that bad. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > The latest posting I found from Mike is the one on Aug 5 on the Welding a > Steel Hull thread. He has only about 50 postings so he is not really the > subject of my mini-rant. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. I don't agree > with most of what Mike says..I suspect his motivation in criticizing your > boats probably has something to do with him opening his own boat yard. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:27 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design > net > > I couldn't find his latest postings. Where did you find them? > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > Although there is some great info and some really knowledgeable > people on > > that site, but some of the forums have been taken over by some > know-it-alls. > > Some of the posters are just spoiling for an argument and not really > trying > > to help anyone, in my opinion. Some of them have 2000 to 3000 > postings and > > seem to respond to anything and everything. It comes to mind that > if a guy > > has over 3000 postings how does he ever have enough time to do > anything with > > a boat? This forum is great since its no BS and concentrates on what is > > really important...getting a boat on the water. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:53 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat > design > > net > > > > There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have > > responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with our > > responses. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , SHANE ROTHWELL > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg of > > Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > > > > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps > > mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that shuts his > > bloody gob. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > > > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@ tazmannusa > > > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > > > Hello All > > > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple weeks > > ago, > > > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. what > > amazes > > > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting me > > down. I > > > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont > > like Brents > > > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were doing > > then why > > > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment > about me > > > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > > > Tom > > > > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in the > > know", > > > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a reformed > > smoker, > > > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the > origamiboats > > > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on my > visual > > > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of his > > builds & > > > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an > > "all-position" > > > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up or > > shut up, > > > Brent. > > > > > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > > origamiboats > > > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue at > > hand, was > > > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex Christie > - by > > > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read Brent's > > remarks, > > > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is that > > Brent did > > > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and there > > were few > > > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been dressed. > > Alex > > > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, the > > boat was > > > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the hullsides, > > due to the > > > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat for at > > least 2 > > > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > > protection(pictures > > > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was worth > > about > > > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being generous. > > The owner > > > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold it, > > which I > > > felt was dishonest. > > > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. > The now > > > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which was > > advertised > > > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full price. > > > > > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for $100,000, > > more & > > > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than $30,0000. > > This is > > > a very important consideration for the builder, who will eventually > > wish to > > > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom have > > built > > > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 > > years. To > > > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > > > > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > > employment is in > > > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have > worked for > > > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, and > > > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My welds are > > > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started running > > stick at > > > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > > engineer, but > > > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as a > > certifed > > > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near > > Vancouver, > > > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from the > > age of > > > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > > boilermaker, > > > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > > Philippines, in > > > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near future, and > > would > > > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built to his > > > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete with > you on > > > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to follow. > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > 8/11/2008 > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: 8/11/2008 > 4:59 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18030|18000|2008-08-11 20:57:45|brentswain38|Re: Icebox liner|Most buildig supplies here have it. I've seen some spectacular results with many layers in Popular Mechanics or a similar magazine years ago. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 09:47:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > Acrylic is brittle and could crack. You could simply install a > > cooler, or any plastic container, and foam around it for extra > > insulation. I'd consider many layers of that black paper backed foil > > for added insulation. > > Brent, I don't know what that is - and I'm not finding anything useful > when I search the Web for "paper-backed foil". Is that something that's > only available in Canada, perhaps? > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18031|17903|2008-08-11 21:24:00|Tom Mann|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|Yep He likes to keep bringing that one up, like by whinning over and over is going to make it right . I have been just ignoring him on that and I think others over there are getting tired of hereing it. I,m figuring he will make an ass out of himself there to and go away because no one will listen. Glad to here things are going good for Hayden, Be nice to see that one on the water. Tom On 8/11/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > His problem was his inability to force Alex to sell him his bioat at > giveaway prices. > I delt with his Aug 5th possting. > Hayden is going great guns on Alex's boat, doing a great job and > will probably be launching htis fall.It is as fair as any steel boat > I've seen except for the overwelding on the anchor well bottom. Even > that is noat that bad. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > The latest posting I found from Mike is the one on Aug 5 on the > Welding a > > Steel Hull thread. He has only about 50 postings so he is not > really the > > subject of my mini-rant. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. I don't > agree > > with most of what Mike says..I suspect his motivation in > criticizing your > > boats probably has something to do with him opening his own boat > yard. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:27 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > Boat design > > net > > > > I couldn't find his latest postings. Where did you find them? > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > Although there is some great info and some really knowledgeable > > people on > > > that site, but some of the forums have been taken over by some > > know-it-alls. > > > Some of the posters are just spoiling for an argument and not > really > > trying > > > to help anyone, in my opinion. Some of them have 2000 to 3000 > > postings and > > > seem to respond to anything and everything. It comes to mind that > > if a guy > > > has over 3000 postings how does he ever have enough time to do > > anything with > > > a boat? This forum is great since its no BS and concentrates on > what is > > > really important...getting a boat on the water. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > ] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:53 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > Boat > > design > > > net > > > > > > There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have > > > responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with our > > > responses. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > , SHANE ROTHWELL > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg of > > > Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > > > > > > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps > > > mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that > shuts his > > > bloody gob. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > > > > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@ tazmannusa > > > > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > > > > Hello All > > > > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple > weeks > > > ago, > > > > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. > what > > > amazes > > > > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting > me > > > down. I > > > > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont > > > like Brents > > > > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were > doing > > > then why > > > > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment > > about me > > > > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in > the > > > know", > > > > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a > reformed > > > smoker, > > > > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the > > origamiboats > > > > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on > my > > visual > > > > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of > his > > > builds & > > > > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an > > > "all-position" > > > > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up > or > > > shut up, > > > > Brent. > > > > > > > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > > > origamiboats > > > > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue > at > > > hand, was > > > > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex > Christie > > - by > > > > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read > Brent's > > > remarks, > > > > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is > that > > > Brent did > > > > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and > there > > > were few > > > > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been > dressed. > > > Alex > > > > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, > the > > > boat was > > > > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the > hullsides, > > > due to the > > > > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat > for at > > > least 2 > > > > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > > > protection(pictures > > > > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was > worth > > > about > > > > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being > generous. > > > The owner > > > > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold > it, > > > which I > > > > felt was dishonest. > > > > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. > > The now > > > > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which > was > > > advertised > > > > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full > price. > > > > > > > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for > $100,000, > > > more & > > > > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than > $30,0000. > > > This is > > > > a very important consideration for the builder, who will > eventually > > > wish to > > > > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom > have > > > built > > > > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 > > > years. To > > > > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > > > > > > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > > > employment is in > > > > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have > > worked for > > > > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, > and > > > > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My > welds are > > > > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started > running > > > stick at > > > > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > > > engineer, but > > > > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as > a > > > certifed > > > > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near > > > Vancouver, > > > > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from > the > > > age of > > > > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > > > boilermaker, > > > > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > > > Philippines, in > > > > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near > future, and > > > would > > > > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built > to his > > > > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete > with > > you on > > > > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to > follow. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > > 8/11/2008 > > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > 8/11/2008 > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18032|17903|2008-08-12 03:49:12|Alex|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|Mike's hilarious really, and certainly has made some fine assumptions; The time he "inspected" the boat, it had indeed been skidded across the field, on it's stout keels onto which there were skis. He doesn't know much about steel structures if he thinks that slithering a hull on it's keels would somehow damage it. Too funny. One builder once jacked the corner of a swain hull he was building, and measured for possible deflection as he did so; the hull didn't even change shape one 16th of an inch. If Mike's expert welding yields structures which can't be moved as mine was, he might want to reconsider his field of work. It's the statement of someone unable to come up with something intelligent to say. As for painting my hull, I put some white paint on it, meant to be temporary, in order to make it cooler to work inside on it, as per Brent's suggestion. It's much better than working inside an oven, which is what it's like when the boat is grey primer. Mike ought to know better than to impune that I somehow tried to pretend that the hull had been given it's true paint-job. He should also know about the physics vis-a-vis white paint vs anything with black in it. He's just burned that he was flamed for dissing the boat, it comes down to hurt male pride and he's lashing back, in a most infantile manner, while trumpeting (with a very long paragraph) his own background. That's my pop-pyschology assessment for the day :p. Anyone who thinks that the hull was distorted should feel free to go and see for themselves at Haidyn's place if that is the case. I'm baffled where this so-called "expert" cooked up this notion. Anyone knows that bending a batten of any stiff material in a curve makes a very nice, distortion-free shape, and that's how these boats are built. And yes, I do feel he was trying to tear me down so he could get a "deal" and basically steal my labour and my materials for his own benefit. Why was he still interested to buy it, if it was so horrible? Anyhow, the boats speak for themselves, not much use in wasting energy responding to a bunch of hot air. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > His problem was his inability to force Alex to sell him his bioat at > giveaway prices. > I delt with his Aug 5th possting. > Hayden is going great guns on Alex's boat, doing a great job and > will probably be launching htis fall.It is as fair as any steel boat > I've seen except for the overwelding on the anchor well bottom. Even > that is noat that bad. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > The latest posting I found from Mike is the one on Aug 5 on the > Welding a > > Steel Hull thread. He has only about 50 postings so he is not > really the > > subject of my mini-rant. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. I don't > agree > > with most of what Mike says..I suspect his motivation in > criticizing your > > boats probably has something to do with him opening his own boat > yard. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:27 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > Boat design > > net > > > > I couldn't find his latest postings. Where did you find them? > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > Although there is some great info and some really knowledgeable > > people on > > > that site, but some of the forums have been taken over by some > > know-it-alls. > > > Some of the posters are just spoiling for an argument and not > really > > trying > > > to help anyone, in my opinion. Some of them have 2000 to 3000 > > postings and > > > seem to respond to anything and everything. It comes to mind that > > if a guy > > > has over 3000 postings how does he ever have enough time to do > > anything with > > > a boat? This forum is great since its no BS and concentrates on > what is > > > really important...getting a boat on the water. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > ] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:53 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > Boat > > design > > > net > > > > > > There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have > > > responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with our > > > responses. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > , SHANE ROTHWELL > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg of > > > Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > > > > > > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps > > > mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that > shuts his > > > bloody gob. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > > > > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@ tazmannusa > > > > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > > > > Hello All > > > > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a couple > weeks > > > ago, > > > > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff again. > what > > > amazes > > > > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes putting > me > > > down. I > > > > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he dont > > > like Brents > > > > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were > doing > > > then why > > > > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment > > about me > > > > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are not "in > the > > > know", > > > > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a > reformed > > > smoker, > > > > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the > > origamiboats > > > > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based on > my > > visual > > > > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of > his > > > builds & > > > > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an > > > "all-position" > > > > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put up > or > > > shut up, > > > > Brent. > > > > > > > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > > > origamiboats > > > > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The issue > at > > > hand, was > > > > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex > Christie > > - by > > > > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read > Brent's > > > remarks, > > > > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is > that > > > Brent did > > > > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and > there > > > were few > > > > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been > dressed. > > > Alex > > > > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, > the > > > boat was > > > > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the > hullsides, > > > due to the > > > > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat > for at > > > least 2 > > > > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > > > protection(pictures > > > > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was > worth > > > about > > > > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being > generous. > > > The owner > > > > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and sold > it, > > > which I > > > > felt was dishonest. > > > > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for $17,000. > > The now > > > > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which > was > > > advertised > > > > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full > price. > > > > > > > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for > $100,000, > > > more & > > > > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than > $30,0000. > > > This is > > > > a very important consideration for the builder, who will > eventually > > > wish to > > > > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met whom > have > > > built > > > > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & 7 > > > years. To > > > > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > > > > > > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > > > employment is in > > > > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have > > worked for > > > > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand Bahamas, > and > > > > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My > welds are > > > > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started > running > > > stick at > > > > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > > > engineer, but > > > > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, as > a > > > certifed > > > > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, near > > > Vancouver, > > > > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, from > the > > > age of > > > > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > > > boilermaker, > > > > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > > > Philippines, in > > > > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near > future, and > > > would > > > > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built > to his > > > > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete > with > > you on > > > > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to > follow. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > > 8/11/2008 > > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > 8/11/2008 > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 18033|17903|2008-08-12 10:23:32|Tom Mann|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|Hello Alex Thanks for clearing up the painting of your hull, he tryed at one point to use that against me and you did it way after the fact. If he was truly trying to assess the value of the hull for some one else, I dont see how he could do it without some kind of figure or time frame to fix the so called damage and finish hull, I did ask a couple times and no awnser. The one that realy baffled me was how bad the boat was built and damaged, poor workmanship,warped , bad tacks, but then he made another statment that he offerd you money to finish the hull. He does claim I am reading between the lines and I'm ignorant. Mabee so LOL Tom On 8/12/08, Alex wrote: > > Mike's hilarious really, and certainly has made some fine assumptions; > > The time he "inspected" the boat, it had indeed been skidded across > the field, on it's stout keels onto which there were skis. He doesn't > know much about steel structures if he thinks that slithering a hull > on it's keels would somehow damage it. Too funny. One builder once > jacked the corner of a swain hull he was building, and measured for > possible deflection as he did so; the hull didn't even change shape > one 16th of an inch. If Mike's expert welding yields structures which > can't be moved as mine was, he might want to reconsider his field of > work. It's the statement of someone unable to come up with something > intelligent to say. > > As for painting my hull, I put some white paint on it, meant to be > temporary, in order to make it cooler to work inside on it, as per > Brent's suggestion. It's much better than working inside an oven, > which is what it's like when the boat is grey primer. Mike ought to > know better than to impune that I somehow tried to pretend that the > hull had been given it's true paint-job. He should also know about > the physics vis-a-vis white paint vs anything with black in it. > > He's just burned that he was flamed for dissing the boat, it comes > down to hurt male pride and he's lashing back, in a most infantile > manner, while trumpeting (with a very long paragraph) his own > background. That's my pop-pyschology assessment for the day :p. > > Anyone who thinks that the hull was distorted should feel free to go > and see for themselves at Haidyn's place if that is the case. I'm > baffled where this so-called "expert" cooked up this notion. Anyone > knows that bending a batten of any stiff material in a curve makes a > very nice, distortion-free shape, and that's how these boats are > built. > > And yes, I do feel he was trying to tear me down so he could get > a "deal" and basically steal my labour and my materials for his own > benefit. Why was he still interested to buy it, if it was so horrible? > > Anyhow, the boats speak for themselves, not much use in wasting > energy responding to a bunch of hot air. > > Alex > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > His problem was his inability to force Alex to sell him his bioat > at > > giveaway prices. > > I delt with his Aug 5th possting. > > Hayden is going great guns on Alex's boat, doing a great job and > > will probably be launching htis fall.It is as fair as any steel > boat > > I've seen except for the overwelding on the anchor well bottom. > Even > > that is noat that bad. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > The latest posting I found from Mike is the one on Aug 5 on the > > Welding a > > > Steel Hull thread. He has only about 50 postings so he is not > > really the > > > subject of my mini-rant. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. I > don't > > agree > > > with most of what Mike says..I suspect his motivation in > > criticizing your > > > boats probably has something to do with him opening his own boat > > yard. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:27 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > > Boat design > > > net > > > > > > I couldn't find his latest postings. Where did you find them? > > > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > Although there is some great info and some really knowledgeable > > > people on > > > > that site, but some of the forums have been taken over by some > > > know-it-alls. > > > > Some of the posters are just spoiling for an argument and not > > really > > > trying > > > > to help anyone, in my opinion. Some of them have 2000 to 3000 > > > postings and > > > > seem to respond to anything and everything. It comes to mind > that > > > if a guy > > > > has over 3000 postings how does he ever have enough time to do > > > anything with > > > > a boat? This forum is great since its no BS and concentrates on > > what is > > > > really important...getting a boat on the water. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:53 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > > Boat > > > design > > > > net > > > > > > > > There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have > > > > responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with > our > > > > responses. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg > of > > > > Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > > > > > > > > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps > > > > mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that > > shuts his > > > > bloody gob. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > > > > > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@ tazmannusa > > > > > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > > > > > Hello All > > > > > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a > couple > > weeks > > > > ago, > > > > > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff > again. > > what > > > > amazes > > > > > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes > putting > > me > > > > down. I > > > > > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he > dont > > > > like Brents > > > > > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were > > doing > > > > then why > > > > > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment > > > about me > > > > > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are > not "in > > the > > > > know", > > > > > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a > > reformed > > > > smoker, > > > > > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the > > > origamiboats > > > > > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based > on > > my > > > visual > > > > > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of > > his > > > > builds & > > > > > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an > > > > "all-position" > > > > > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put > up > > or > > > > shut up, > > > > > Brent. > > > > > > > > > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > > > > origamiboats > > > > > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The > issue > > at > > > > hand, was > > > > > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex > > Christie > > > - by > > > > > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read > > Brent's > > > > remarks, > > > > > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is > > that > > > > Brent did > > > > > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and > > there > > > > were few > > > > > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been > > dressed. > > > > Alex > > > > > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, > > the > > > > boat was > > > > > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the > > hullsides, > > > > due to the > > > > > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat > > for at > > > > least 2 > > > > > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > > > > protection(pictures > > > > > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was > > worth > > > > about > > > > > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being > > generous. > > > > The owner > > > > > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and > sold > > it, > > > > which I > > > > > felt was dishonest. > > > > > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for > $17,000. > > > The now > > > > > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which > > was > > > > advertised > > > > > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full > > price. > > > > > > > > > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for > > $100,000, > > > > more & > > > > > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than > > $30,0000. > > > > This is > > > > > a very important consideration for the builder, who will > > eventually > > > > wish to > > > > > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met > whom > > have > > > > built > > > > > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & > 7 > > > > years. To > > > > > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > > > > > > > > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > > > > employment is in > > > > > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have > > > worked for > > > > > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand > Bahamas, > > and > > > > > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My > > welds are > > > > > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started > > running > > > > stick at > > > > > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > > > > engineer, but > > > > > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, > as > > a > > > > certifed > > > > > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, > near > > > > Vancouver, > > > > > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, > from > > the > > > > age of > > > > > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > > > > boilermaker, > > > > > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > > > > Philippines, in > > > > > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near > > future, and > > > > would > > > > > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built > > to his > > > > > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete > > with > > > you on > > > > > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to > > follow. > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > > > 8/11/2008 > > > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > > 8/11/2008 > > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18034|18034|2008-08-12 14:07:11|thomas lee|Mike Swamp|                                                        "AMIGOS"                                           "THE PROFESSION IS A CONSPIRACY TO THE LAITY"                                                                                                               ~ Bertrand Russell                                                    "KIS"                                                                                                                                                                   &a mp;a mp;n bsp;                                                                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18035|18000|2008-08-12 14:30:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 09:53:34PM -0000, vic_lub wrote: > A common household plastic laundry sink is close to the dimensions > mentioned... Unfortunately, it's not - but it's an easy mistake to make. A sink is a flat, square box (or close to it); what I need is something like the same shape but standing on edge. That seems to be more difficult to find. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18036|17939|2008-08-12 15:40:16|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Hot-dip Galvanizing|I would experiment on this one first.About 25 years ago,in my motorcycling days,my mate Dave and I had some motorcycle frames and mudguards coated with powder epoxy.Knowing that shotblasting was included in the price of the coating I took my gear in 'as is'.Dave,who fancied a 'belt and braces' job and had contacts in a shotblasting firm in Sheffield had his stuff shotblasted and then zinc sprayed before taking them in for powder coating. Mine worked beautifully,but the epoxy reacted with the zinc on Dave's,the coating bubbled,and the whole lot had to be shotblasted off again.Given that powder epoxy normally sticks like s**t to a blanket this was no fun at all cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18037|17903|2008-08-12 19:08:57|brentswain38|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|Haidyn sent him an e mail saying he would be in Vancouver and would like to meet him and discuss the problems he claims. He got no answer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello Alex > Thanks for clearing up the painting of your hull, he tryed at one point to > use that against me and you did it way after the fact. > If he was truly trying to assess the value of the hull for some one else, I > dont see how he could do it without some kind of figure or time frame to fix > the so called damage and finish hull, I did ask a couple times and no > awnser. > The one that realy baffled me was how bad the boat was built and damaged, > poor workmanship,warped , bad tacks, but then he made another statment that > he offerd you money to finish the hull. > He does claim I am reading between the lines and I'm ignorant. Mabee so > LOL > Tom > > On 8/12/08, Alex wrote: > > > > Mike's hilarious really, and certainly has made some fine assumptions; > > > > The time he "inspected" the boat, it had indeed been skidded across > > the field, on it's stout keels onto which there were skis. He doesn't > > know much about steel structures if he thinks that slithering a hull > > on it's keels would somehow damage it. Too funny. One builder once > > jacked the corner of a swain hull he was building, and measured for > > possible deflection as he did so; the hull didn't even change shape > > one 16th of an inch. If Mike's expert welding yields structures which > > can't be moved as mine was, he might want to reconsider his field of > > work. It's the statement of someone unable to come up with something > > intelligent to say. > > > > As for painting my hull, I put some white paint on it, meant to be > > temporary, in order to make it cooler to work inside on it, as per > > Brent's suggestion. It's much better than working inside an oven, > > which is what it's like when the boat is grey primer. Mike ought to > > know better than to impune that I somehow tried to pretend that the > > hull had been given it's true paint-job. He should also know about > > the physics vis-a-vis white paint vs anything with black in it. > > > > He's just burned that he was flamed for dissing the boat, it comes > > down to hurt male pride and he's lashing back, in a most infantile > > manner, while trumpeting (with a very long paragraph) his own > > background. That's my pop-pyschology assessment for the day :p. > > > > Anyone who thinks that the hull was distorted should feel free to go > > and see for themselves at Haidyn's place if that is the case. I'm > > baffled where this so-called "expert" cooked up this notion. Anyone > > knows that bending a batten of any stiff material in a curve makes a > > very nice, distortion-free shape, and that's how these boats are > > built. > > > > And yes, I do feel he was trying to tear me down so he could get > > a "deal" and basically steal my labour and my materials for his own > > benefit. Why was he still interested to buy it, if it was so horrible? > > > > Anyhow, the boats speak for themselves, not much use in wasting > > energy responding to a bunch of hot air. > > > > Alex > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > His problem was his inability to force Alex to sell him his bioat > > at > > > giveaway prices. > > > I delt with his Aug 5th possting. > > > Hayden is going great guns on Alex's boat, doing a great job and > > > will probably be launching htis fall.It is as fair as any steel > > boat > > > I've seen except for the overwelding on the anchor well bottom. > > Even > > > that is noat that bad. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > The latest posting I found from Mike is the one on Aug 5 on the > > > Welding a > > > > Steel Hull thread. He has only about 50 postings so he is not > > > really the > > > > subject of my mini-rant. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. I > > don't > > > agree > > > > with most of what Mike says..I suspect his motivation in > > > criticizing your > > > > boats probably has something to do with him opening his own boat > > > yard. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:27 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > > > Boat design > > > > net > > > > > > > > I couldn't find his latest postings. Where did you find them? > > > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Although there is some great info and some really knowledgeable > > > > people on > > > > > that site, but some of the forums have been taken over by some > > > > know-it-alls. > > > > > Some of the posters are just spoiling for an argument and not > > > really > > > > trying > > > > > to help anyone, in my opinion. Some of them have 2000 to 3000 > > > > postings and > > > > > seem to respond to anything and everything. It comes to mind > > that > > > > if a guy > > > > > has over 3000 postings how does he ever have enough time to do > > > > anything with > > > > > a boat? This forum is great since its no BS and concentrates on > > > what is > > > > > really important...getting a boat on the water. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > ] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:53 AM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > > > Boat > > > > design > > > > > net > > > > > > > > > > There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have > > > > > responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with > > our > > > > > responses. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > > > > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg > > of > > > > > Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > > > > > > > > > > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps > > > > > mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that > > > shuts his > > > > > bloody gob. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > > > > > > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@ tazmannusa > > > > > > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a > > couple > > > weeks > > > > > ago, > > > > > > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff > > again. > > > what > > > > > amazes > > > > > > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes > > putting > > > me > > > > > down. I > > > > > > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he > > dont > > > > > like Brents > > > > > > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were > > > doing > > > > > then why > > > > > > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment > > > > about me > > > > > > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are > > not "in > > > the > > > > > know", > > > > > > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a > > > reformed > > > > > smoker, > > > > > > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the > > > > origamiboats > > > > > > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based > > on > > > my > > > > visual > > > > > > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of > > > his > > > > > builds & > > > > > > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an > > > > > "all-position" > > > > > > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put > > up > > > or > > > > > shut up, > > > > > > Brent. > > > > > > > > > > > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > > > > > origamiboats > > > > > > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The > > issue > > > at > > > > > hand, was > > > > > > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex > > > Christie > > > > - by > > > > > > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read > > > Brent's > > > > > remarks, > > > > > > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is > > > that > > > > > Brent did > > > > > > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and > > > there > > > > > were few > > > > > > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been > > > dressed. > > > > > Alex > > > > > > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, > > > the > > > > > boat was > > > > > > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the > > > hullsides, > > > > > due to the > > > > > > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat > > > for at > > > > > least 2 > > > > > > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > > > > > protection(pictures > > > > > > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was > > > worth > > > > > about > > > > > > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being > > > generous. > > > > > The owner > > > > > > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and > > sold > > > it, > > > > > which I > > > > > > felt was dishonest. > > > > > > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for > > $17,000. > > > > The now > > > > > > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which > > > was > > > > > advertised > > > > > > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full > > > price. > > > > > > > > > > > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for > > > $100,000, > > > > > more & > > > > > > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than > > > $30,0000. > > > > > This is > > > > > > a very important consideration for the builder, who will > > > eventually > > > > > wish to > > > > > > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met > > whom > > > have > > > > > built > > > > > > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & > > 7 > > > > > years. To > > > > > > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > > > > > > > > > > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > > > > > employment is in > > > > > > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have > > > > worked for > > > > > > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand > > Bahamas, > > > and > > > > > > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My > > > welds are > > > > > > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started > > > running > > > > > stick at > > > > > > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > > > > > engineer, but > > > > > > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, > > as > > > a > > > > > certifed > > > > > > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, > > near > > > > > Vancouver, > > > > > > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, > > from > > > the > > > > > age of > > > > > > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > > > > > boilermaker, > > > > > > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > > > > > Philippines, in > > > > > > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near > > > future, and > > > > > would > > > > > > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built > > > to his > > > > > > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete > > > with > > > > you on > > > > > > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to > > > follow. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > > > > 8/11/2008 > > > > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > > > 8/11/2008 > > > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18038|18000|2008-08-12 19:16:59|brentswain38|Re: Icebox liner|Friends brought me a foil bag of frozen bear, cariboo and buffalo . It stayed frozen solid in warm summer weather for 24 hours. They were amazed at how long it remained frozen coming down here from the north. The only insulation was the foil reflector. An uncle used one layer of foil insulation on a house in Prince George BC ,where minus 40 degree weather is common in winter, and said it was as good as 3 inch fibreglass. The article in the magazine said they built up layer after layer to an inch thick and it kept ice frozen for a month. I'd still use the foam , but given how cheap the black paper backed foil is , it would cost litle to throw many layers of that in too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Most buildig supplies here have it. I've seen some spectacular results > with many layers in Popular Mechanics or a similar magazine years ago. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 09:47:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > Acrylic is brittle and could crack. You could simply install a > > > cooler, or any plastic container, and foam around it for extra > > > insulation. I'd consider many layers of that black paper backed > foil > > > for added insulation. > > > > Brent, I don't know what that is - and I'm not finding anything useful > > when I search the Web for "paper-backed foil". Is that something > that's > > only available in Canada, perhaps? > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 18039|18000|2008-08-12 19:17:16|Tom Mann|Re: Icebox liner|stainless steamer bin perhaps? available from restraunt supply house. or ebay Tom On 8/12/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 09:53:34PM -0000, vic_lub wrote: > > A common household plastic laundry sink is close to the dimensions > > mentioned... > > Unfortunately, it's not - but it's an easy mistake to make. A sink is a > flat, square box (or close to it); what I need is something like the > same shape but standing on edge. That seems to be more difficult to > find. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18040|18000|2008-08-12 19:58:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:16:53PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Friends brought me a foil bag of frozen bear, cariboo and buffalo . > It stayed frozen solid in warm summer weather for 24 hours. They were > amazed at how long it remained frozen coming down here from the north. > The only insulation was the foil reflector. An uncle used one layer of > foil insulation on a house in Prince George BC ,where minus 40 degree > weather is common in winter, and said it was as good as 3 inch > fibreglass. The article in the magazine said they built up layer after > layer to an inch thick and it kept ice frozen for a month. I'd still > use the foam , but given how cheap the black paper backed foil is , it > would cost litle to throw many layers of that in too. Brent, you're making me jealous. :) I did another search for that stuff today, and the only foil-backed insulation I've found is bubble wrap with foil on either side of it. It sounds pretty good - they use it for "wrapping" houses - but it's definitely not cheap. I was even looking for places where I could order something like that; no luck. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18041|18000|2008-08-12 20:10:08|Joe Earsley|Re: Icebox liner|Ben, I've seen the foil bubble wrap at Lowes and Home Depot. It is great for ice boxes. We lined our ice box on our last boat and we got much better life out of our glacier ice. Radiation heat transfer is a line of sight mechanism (like the sun on your face ) and is proportional to the temperature difference of the separate surfaces to the 4th power. Conduction or heat transfer by touch is linear or equal to the temp difference to the 1st power. Convection or heat transfer by moving fluids (air or water) is proportional to the difference in the 2nd power. So radiation should always be accounted for in any insulation system. Alaska Joe -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:57 PM To: Origami Boat list Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Icebox liner On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:16:53PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Friends brought me a foil bag of frozen bear, cariboo and buffalo . > It stayed frozen solid in warm summer weather for 24 hours. They were > amazed at how long it remained frozen coming down here from the north. > The only insulation was the foil reflector. An uncle used one layer of > foil insulation on a house in Prince George BC ,where minus 40 degree > weather is common in winter, and said it was as good as 3 inch > fibreglass. The article in the magazine said they built up layer after > layer to an inch thick and it kept ice frozen for a month. I'd still > use the foam , but given how cheap the black paper backed foil is , it > would cost litle to throw many layers of that in too. Brent, you're making me jealous. :) I did another search for that stuff today, and the only foil-backed insulation I've found is bubble wrap with foil on either side of it. It sounds pretty good - they use it for "wrapping" houses - but it's definitely not cheap. I was even looking for places where I could order something like that; no luck. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 18042|18000|2008-08-12 20:16:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 04:17:15PM -0700, Tom Mann wrote: > stainless steamer bin perhaps? available from restraunt supply house. or > ebay Over a hundred of those on eBay, almost all of them round. The few that aren't are just square pans. I've also looked at TheFind.com, which is usually really good for that kind of thing; nothing that even comes close. I'm not giving up, but it's not in the obvious places. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18043|18000|2008-08-12 20:19:36|Joe Earsley|Re: Icebox liner|The Home Depot web site has the bubble wrap product called "Reflectix" -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:15 PM To: Origami Boat list Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Icebox liner On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 04:17:15PM -0700, Tom Mann wrote: > stainless steamer bin perhaps? available from restraunt supply house. or > ebay Over a hundred of those on eBay, almost all of them round. The few that aren't are just square pans. I've also looked at TheFind.com, which is usually really good for that kind of thing; nothing that even comes close. I'm not giving up, but it's not in the obvious places. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 18044|17903|2008-08-12 20:49:08|A BOUCHER|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|Why are you guys wasdting so much time and thought on a flaming ---------( insert your favorite expletive). ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net Hello Alex Thanks for clearing up the painting of your hull, he tryed at one point to use that against me and you did it way after the fact. If he was truly trying to assess the value of the hull for some one else, I dont see how he could do it without some kind of figure or time frame to fix the so called damage and finish hull, I did ask a couple times and no awnser. The one that realy baffled me was how bad the boat was built and damaged, poor workmanship,warped , bad tacks, but then he made another statment that he offerd you money to finish the hull. He does claim I am reading between the lines and I'm ignorant. Mabee so LOL Tom On 8/12/08, Alex wrote: > > Mike's hilarious really, and certainly has made some fine assumptions; > > The time he "inspected" the boat, it had indeed been skidded across > the field, on it's stout keels onto which there were skis. He doesn't > know much about steel structures if he thinks that slithering a hull > on it's keels would somehow damage it. Too funny. One builder once > jacked the corner of a swain hull he was building, and measured for > possible deflection as he did so; the hull didn't even change shape > one 16th of an inch. If Mike's expert welding yields structures which > can't be moved as mine was, he might want to reconsider his field of > work. It's the statement of someone unable to come up with something > intelligent to say. > > As for painting my hull, I put some white paint on it, meant to be > temporary, in order to make it cooler to work inside on it, as per > Brent's suggestion. It's much better than working inside an oven, > which is what it's like when the boat is grey primer. Mike ought to > know better than to impune that I somehow tried to pretend that the > hull had been given it's true paint-job. He should also know about > the physics vis-a-vis white paint vs anything with black in it. > > He's just burned that he was flamed for dissing the boat, it comes > down to hurt male pride and he's lashing back, in a most infantile > manner, while trumpeting (with a very long paragraph) his own > background. That's my pop-pyschology assessment for the day :p. > > Anyone who thinks that the hull was distorted should feel free to go > and see for themselves at Haidyn's place if that is the case. I'm > baffled where this so-called "expert" cooked up this notion. Anyone > knows that bending a batten of any stiff material in a curve makes a > very nice, distortion-free shape, and that's how these boats are > built. > > And yes, I do feel he was trying to tear me down so he could get > a "deal" and basically steal my labour and my materials for his own > benefit. Why was he still interested to buy it, if it was so horrible? > > Anyhow, the boats speak for themselves, not much use in wasting > energy responding to a bunch of hot air. > > Alex > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > His problem was his inability to force Alex to sell him his bioat > at > > giveaway prices. > > I delt with his Aug 5th possting. > > Hayden is going great guns on Alex's boat, doing a great job and > > will probably be launching htis fall.It is as fair as any steel > boat > > I've seen except for the overwelding on the anchor well bottom. > Even > > that is noat that bad. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > The latest posting I found from Mike is the one on Aug 5 on the > > Welding a > > > Steel Hull thread. He has only about 50 postings so he is not > > really the > > > subject of my mini-rant. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. I > don't > > agree > > > with most of what Mike says..I suspect his motivation in > > criticizing your > > > boats probably has something to do with him opening his own boat > > yard. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:27 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > > Boat design > > > net > > > > > > I couldn't find his latest postings. Where did you find them? > > > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > Although there is some great info and some really knowledgeable > > > people on > > > > that site, but some of the forums have been taken over by some > > > know-it-alls. > > > > Some of the posters are just spoiling for an argument and not > > really > > > trying > > > > to help anyone, in my opinion. Some of them have 2000 to 3000 > > > postings and > > > > seem to respond to anything and everything. It comes to mind > that > > > if a guy > > > > has over 3000 postings how does he ever have enough time to do > > > anything with > > > > a boat? This forum is great since its no BS and concentrates on > > what is > > > > really important...getting a boat on the water. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:53 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > > Boat > > > design > > > > net > > > > > > > > There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have > > > > responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with > our > > > > responses. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg > of > > > > Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > > > > > > > > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps > > > > mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that > > shuts his > > > > bloody gob. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > > > > > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@ tazmannusa > > > > > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > > > > > Hello All > > > > > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a > couple > > weeks > > > > ago, > > > > > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff > again. > > what > > > > amazes > > > > > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes > putting > > me > > > > down. I > > > > > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he > dont > > > > like Brents > > > > > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were > > doing > > > > then why > > > > > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment > > > about me > > > > > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are > not "in > > the > > > > know", > > > > > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a > > reformed > > > > smoker, > > > > > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the > > > origamiboats > > > > > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based > on > > my > > > visual > > > > > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of > > his > > > > builds & > > > > > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an > > > > "all-position" > > > > > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put > up > > or > > > > shut up, > > > > > Brent. > > > > > > > > > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > > > > origamiboats > > > > > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The > issue > > at > > > > hand, was > > > > > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex > > Christie > > > - by > > > > > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read > > Brent's > > > > remarks, > > > > > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is > > that > > > > Brent did > > > > > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and > > there > > > > were few > > > > > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been > > dressed. > > > > Alex > > > > > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, > > the > > > > boat was > > > > > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the > > hullsides, > > > > due to the > > > > > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat > > for at > > > > least 2 > > > > > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > > > > protection(pictures > > > > > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was > > worth > > > > about > > > > > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being > > generous. > > > > The owner > > > > > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and > sold > > it, > > > > which I > > > > > felt was dishonest. > > > > > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for > $17,000. > > > The now > > > > > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which > > was > > > > advertised > > > > > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full > > price. > > > > > > > > > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for > > $100,000, > > > > more & > > > > > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than > > $30,0000. > > > > This is > > > > > a very important consideration for the builder, who will > > eventually > > > > wish to > > > > > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met > whom > > have > > > > built > > > > > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & > 7 > > > > years. To > > > > > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > > > > > > > > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > > > > employment is in > > > > > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have > > > worked for > > > > > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand > Bahamas, > > and > > > > > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My > > welds are > > > > > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started > > running > > > > stick at > > > > > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > > > > engineer, but > > > > > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, > as > > a > > > > certifed > > > > > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, > near > > > > Vancouver, > > > > > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, > from > > the > > > > age of > > > > > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > > > > boilermaker, > > > > > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > > > > Philippines, in > > > > > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near > > future, and > > > > would > > > > > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built > > to his > > > > > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete > > with > > > you on > > > > > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to > > follow. > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > > > 8/11/2008 > > > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > > 8/11/2008 > > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18045|18000|2008-08-12 22:29:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 04:25:14PM -0800, Joe Earsley wrote: > The Home Depot web site has the bubble wrap product called "Reflectix" Yep - that's the bubble wrap-plus-foil stuff I was talking about. When Glacier Bay did their test of various insulation products (http://www.glacierbay.com/Instresult.asp), their conclusion was "The addition of this product to a refrigerator box will have virtually no perceptible benefit." http://www.glacierbay.com/reflxtest.asp -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18046|18000|2008-08-12 23:48:44|Wesley Cox|Re: Icebox liner|Not a very thorough description of their test parameters. I would agree the insulative value of such a thin air space entrapped by the bubble wrap would not be substantial compared to the presumed other insulating materials involved in an ice box. A previous post is correct, radiative heat loss is (roughly) proportional to the 4th power of the temperature difference. It's actually proportional to the 4th power of the higher temperature minus the 4th power of the lower temperature, T1^4 - T2^4, but (T1 - T2)^4 is good for approximation. That being said, a highly reflective surface, such as metal foil, would be much more effective in a warm climate versus a cold climate, the temperature difference being greater, a doubling of the temperature difference producing approximately 16 times the effectiveness in terms of radiative heat loss. Stainless steel has decent reflectivity, so use of foil wrap on it versus a dull material would result in less relative improvement. The test results give no account to radiative heat losses, at least not that I see. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Icebox liner On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 04:25:14PM -0800, Joe Earsley wrote: > The Home Depot web site has the bubble wrap product called "Reflectix" Yep - that's the bubble wrap-plus-foil stuff I was talking about. When Glacier Bay did their test of various insulation products (http://www.glacierbay.com/Instresult.asp), their conclusion was "The addition of this product to a refrigerator box will have virtually no perceptible benefit." http://www.glacierbay.com/reflxtest.asp -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1608 - Release Date: 8/12/2008 4:59 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18047|18000|2008-08-13 00:18:26|Paul Thompson|Re: Icebox liner|On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > I've got an odd-shaped space in my galley; every time I look at it, it > keeps telling me that it wants to be an icebox. I've managed to resist > it so far, but I know the day is coming soon... > > I've already lined the inside with 4" of foam, which leaves me with a > nice 20"W x 12"D x 20"H box. This is actually somewhat bigger than I > strictly need: even a standard 25-lb. block of ice is only 10" x 10" x > 7", and two of those would fit in the bottom side-by-side, leaving me a > (roughly) 20"W x 12"D x 13"H space for food, which is about 75% more > than I'm usually planning to use. > > The problem that I'm running into now is that building the inside liner > is a serious pain for me. Fiberglass and I are not good friends (often, > we're not even on speaking terms.) I mean, I know the process: nail up a > box, line it with cloth, tape the inside edges, fill the corners with > Cabosil (tight corners are hell to clean), sand the thing, put a finish > coat on it... frankly, at my skill level, I'm looking at maybe two or > three days of solid work - and probably more when I screw it up. I kid > you not: I'm that slow with it. In other words, it's not a good bet for > me. Ben, When I made the ice box that I have now used aboard La Chica since 1989 I used Formica on the inside, which I glued to 8mm (3/8) ply with Aluminium foil glued to the outward facing side of the ply. I then had the box surrounded by 100mm (4in) of polyurethane foam. The foam was purchased from a refrigeration company and it was built up from 25mm (1in) pieces. Each piece had Aluminium Foil on one side. In the corners, the foam was staggered so there was no straight line that heat could leak through. For the inside corners, I used M3 5200 to make a nice radius (use a suitable spoon and lots of spit. For some reason the 5200 does not stick to spit. You do get a little teeth whitening if you are not careful :-) . Over the years, the 5200 has turned yellow but has never showed any sign of coming off. Neither has the Formica given any trouble. The other possibility that I could think of, would be to get a polyurethane water tank and cut one side off to make the box. I bought a 15 Gal (I think) tank from West Marine that is very similar in dimension to what you want. I think that you could use 5200 to radius the corners. However, the Formica and ply box has served me well and I would not hesitate to use the same method again. Regards, Paul| 18048|18000|2008-08-13 04:56:08|sae140|Re: Icebox liner|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 09:53:34PM -0000, vic_lub wrote: > > A common household plastic laundry sink is close to the dimensions > > mentioned... > > Unfortunately, it's not - but it's an easy mistake to make. A sink is a > flat, square box (or close to it); what I need is something like the > same shape but standing on edge. That seems to be more difficult to > find. > Hi Ben - if you were making-up an ice-box from scratch, then the lower half of a kitchen swing-bin (very popular over here in the 70's/80's) could be used - they're square with rounded corners: 12x10 at the top, tapering to 11x9 at the bottom, with a height of 22". But, as you've got an existing shape to work to, I guess you'll need to make something up to fit. Colin| 18049|18049|2008-08-13 05:11:50|sae140|Another case for a steel boat ....|It's not just the hard stuff around land that takes boats out ... http://www.nci.org.uk/?q=node/607| 18050|18000|2008-08-13 06:10:31|Carl Volkwein|Re: Icebox liner|How about if you start out with one of those 5 day Coleman coolers, and put more insulation around it, and on top of it? carlvolkwein@ yahoo.com --- On Wed, 8/13/08, sae140 wrote: From: sae140 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Icebox liner To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 4:56 AM --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 09:53:34PM -0000, vic_lub wrote: > > A common household plastic laundry sink is close to the dimensions > > mentioned... > > Unfortunately, it's not - but it's an easy mistake to make. A sink is a > flat, square box (or close to it); what I need is something like the > same shape but standing on edge. That seems to be more difficult to > find. > Hi Ben - if you were making-up an ice-box from scratch, then the lower half of a kitchen swing-bin (very popular over here in the 70's/80's) could be used - they're square with rounded corners: 12x10 at the top, tapering to 11x9 at the bottom, with a height of 22". But, as you've got an existing shape to work to, I guess you'll need to make something up to fit. Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18051|18049|2008-08-13 11:28:23|David Frantz|Re: Another case for a steel boat ....|This Reminds me of a incident last year, I believe, where a guy got rammed by a whale and lost his Fiberglas boat in less than a half hour. Likewise he was picked up by a large commercial vessel. In any event it points out the need to know your way around your safety equipment. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 13, 2008, at 5:11 AM, sae140 wrote: > It's not just the hard stuff around land that takes boats out ... > > http://www.nci.org.uk/?q=node/607 > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18052|18000|2008-08-13 13:57:34|brentswain38|Re: Icebox liner|Joe When are you comming down to work on your boat? That site Alex had in Fanny Bay looks great. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Earsley" wrote: > > Ben, I've seen the foil bubble wrap at Lowes and Home Depot. It is > great for ice boxes. We lined our ice box on our last boat and we got > much better life out of our glacier ice. Radiation heat transfer is a > line of sight mechanism (like the sun on your face ) and is proportional > to the temperature difference of the separate surfaces to the 4th power. > Conduction or heat transfer by touch is linear or equal to the temp > difference to the 1st power. Convection or heat transfer by moving > fluids (air or water) is proportional to the difference in the 2nd > power. So radiation should always be accounted for in any insulation > system. > > Alaska Joe > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:57 PM > To: Origami Boat list > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Icebox liner > > On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:16:53PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > Friends brought me a foil bag of frozen bear, cariboo and buffalo . > > It stayed frozen solid in warm summer weather for 24 hours. They were > > amazed at how long it remained frozen coming down here from the north. > > The only insulation was the foil reflector. An uncle used one layer of > > foil insulation on a house in Prince George BC ,where minus 40 degree > > weather is common in winter, and said it was as good as 3 inch > > fibreglass. The article in the magazine said they built up layer after > > layer to an inch thick and it kept ice frozen for a month. I'd still > > use the foam , but given how cheap the black paper backed foil is , it > > would cost litle to throw many layers of that in too. > > Brent, you're making me jealous. :) I did another search for that stuff > today, and the only foil-backed insulation I've found is bubble wrap > with foil on either side of it. It sounds pretty good - they use it for > "wrapping" houses - but it's definitely not cheap. I was even looking > for places where I could order something like that; no luck. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > | 18053|17903|2008-08-13 13:59:17|brentswain38|Re: Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net|Alex As some seemed inclined to support Mike['s bullshit, I think you need to repeat your post on boatdesign.net Don't let us carry the ball for you alone. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Mike's hilarious really, and certainly has made some fine assumptions; > > The time he "inspected" the boat, it had indeed been skidded across > the field, on it's stout keels onto which there were skis. He doesn't > know much about steel structures if he thinks that slithering a hull > on it's keels would somehow damage it. Too funny. One builder once > jacked the corner of a swain hull he was building, and measured for > possible deflection as he did so; the hull didn't even change shape > one 16th of an inch. If Mike's expert welding yields structures which > can't be moved as mine was, he might want to reconsider his field of > work. It's the statement of someone unable to come up with something > intelligent to say. > > As for painting my hull, I put some white paint on it, meant to be > temporary, in order to make it cooler to work inside on it, as per > Brent's suggestion. It's much better than working inside an oven, > which is what it's like when the boat is grey primer. Mike ought to > know better than to impune that I somehow tried to pretend that the > hull had been given it's true paint-job. He should also know about > the physics vis-a-vis white paint vs anything with black in it. > > He's just burned that he was flamed for dissing the boat, it comes > down to hurt male pride and he's lashing back, in a most infantile > manner, while trumpeting (with a very long paragraph) his own > background. That's my pop-pyschology assessment for the day :p. > > Anyone who thinks that the hull was distorted should feel free to go > and see for themselves at Haidyn's place if that is the case. I'm > baffled where this so-called "expert" cooked up this notion. Anyone > knows that bending a batten of any stiff material in a curve makes a > very nice, distortion-free shape, and that's how these boats are > built. > > And yes, I do feel he was trying to tear me down so he could get > a "deal" and basically steal my labour and my materials for his own > benefit. Why was he still interested to buy it, if it was so horrible? > > Anyhow, the boats speak for themselves, not much use in wasting > energy responding to a bunch of hot air. > > Alex > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > His problem was his inability to force Alex to sell him his bioat > at > > giveaway prices. > > I delt with his Aug 5th possting. > > Hayden is going great guns on Alex's boat, doing a great job and > > will probably be launching htis fall.It is as fair as any steel > boat > > I've seen except for the overwelding on the anchor well bottom. > Even > > that is noat that bad. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > The latest posting I found from Mike is the one on Aug 5 on the > > Welding a > > > Steel Hull thread. He has only about 50 postings so he is not > > really the > > > subject of my mini-rant. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. I > don't > > agree > > > with most of what Mike says..I suspect his motivation in > > criticizing your > > > boats probably has something to do with him opening his own boat > > yard. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:27 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > > Boat design > > > net > > > > > > I couldn't find his latest postings. Where did you find them? > > > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > Although there is some great info and some really knowledgeable > > > people on > > > > that site, but some of the forums have been taken over by some > > > know-it-alls. > > > > Some of the posters are just spoiling for an argument and not > > really > > > trying > > > > to help anyone, in my opinion. Some of them have 2000 to 3000 > > > postings and > > > > seem to respond to anything and everything. It comes to mind > that > > > if a guy > > > > has over 3000 postings how does he ever have enough time to do > > > anything with > > > > a boat? This forum is great since its no BS and concentrates on > > what is > > > > really important...getting a boat on the water. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:53 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interesting read again from Mike on > > Boat > > > design > > > > net > > > > > > > > There are over 2200 members on this site, but only a few have > > > > responded to Mike. Lets all swamp that boadesign.net site with > our > > > > responses. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > , SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > > > this guy mike sounds a wank. (who does it remind you of? Greg > of > > > > Oigamimajic perhaps?) > > > > > > > > > > His comments are very clearly slander. I would suggest perhaps > > > > mentioning it to him in a letter from a lawyer & see if that > > shuts his > > > > bloody gob. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1a. Interesting read again from Mike on Boat design net > > > > > Posted by: "Tom Mann" tazmannm@ tazmannusa > > > > > Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:22 pm (PDT) > > > > > Hello All > > > > > Anyone been following the boatdesign net threads from a > couple > > weeks > > > > ago, > > > > > well here goes Mike again on different thread same stuff > again. > > what > > > > amazes > > > > > me is I have never called him anything but yet he likes > putting > > me > > > > down. I > > > > > am beggining to think he has a mental problem, I mean if he > dont > > > > like Brents > > > > > origamiboats or Brent or myself and none of us know what were > > doing > > > > then why > > > > > the heck does he bother. I dont have a clue what this statment > > > about me > > > > > actualy means so here is a copy and paste from his post below. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > A final note on "Swain boats": For those of you who are > not "in > > the > > > > know", > > > > > Tazmann(Tom) is a "Swain lackie", with the disposition of a > > reformed > > > > smoker, > > > > > here to save Brent from unknown evil. Brent, "guru" of the > > > origamiboats > > > > > group, has an acceptable, "alternative" design, but - based > on > > my > > > visual > > > > > inspections - is not much of a builder. I have viewed many of > > his > > > > builds & > > > > > have worked on three. I would be amazed if he could pass an > > > > "all-position" > > > > > stick test. In fact, I challenge him to take a CWB test. Put > up > > or > > > > shut up, > > > > > Brent. > > > > > > > > > > For those not "in the know", Brent fabricated a story - on the > > > > origamiboats > > > > > web site - that I had been slagging him on this site. The > issue > > at > > > > hand, was > > > > > a boat constructed for the moderator of that group - Alex > > Christie > > > - by > > > > > Brent. Though I was not a member of this group[ when I read > > Brent's > > > > remarks, > > > > > I felt compelled to react. The truth of the entire matter is > > that > > > > Brent did > > > > > a Half-ass job of Alex's boat. The only completed welds - and > > there > > > > were few > > > > > - were major "fish scales". None of the torch cuts had been > > dressed. > > > > Alex > > > > > was asking $15,000 for the deck & hull. There was no ballast, > > the > > > > boat was > > > > > mostly tacked together & there were deflections in the > > hullsides, > > > > due to the > > > > > tacked hull & deck being dragged across a field, where it sat > > for at > > > > least 2 > > > > > years, left uncovered, with no primer or other form of > > > > protection(pictures > > > > > are available for verification) . I felt that the project was > > worth > > > > about > > > > > $7,000. Others who viewed the boat felt that I was being > > generous. > > > > The owner > > > > > of the boat painted over the hull - no sand blasting - and > sold > > it, > > > > which I > > > > > felt was dishonest. > > > > > Brent has since informed me that the hull/deck sold for > $17,000. > > > The now > > > > > past owner of the boat, Alex, bought a completed Swain, which > > was > > > > advertised > > > > > for $24,000. I would be surprised to learn that he paid full > > price. > > > > > > > > > > While I have seen Vandestadt's & Robert's boats sell for > > $100,000, > > > > more & > > > > > less, I have never heard of a Swain selling for more than > > $30,0000. > > > > This is > > > > > a very important consideration for the builder, who will > > eventually > > > > wish to > > > > > sell his boat. Furthermore, of the people that I have met > whom > > have > > > > built > > > > > Brent's designs, completion periods have been between 2 1/2 & > 7 > > > > years. To > > > > > wit, this fantasy of a quicker build is utter hogwash. > > > > > > > > > > From which I come: Welder & fitter, fabricator. Most of my > > > > employment is in > > > > > the shipyards & drydocks, in Vancouver, Canada, though I have > > > worked for > > > > > other marine repair companies, in Vancouver, The Grand > Bahamas, > > and > > > > > Venezuela. I hold "all position" tickets in SMAW & FCAW. My > > welds are > > > > > routinely inspected, and passed, by Lloyds & ABS. I started > > running > > > > stick at > > > > > age 11, wire at 19. I am 45. My old man was a metallurgical > > > > engineer, but > > > > > started as a boilermaker in the shipyards. I worked for him, > as > > a > > > > certifed > > > > > welding inspector, for 5 years. I grew up on a Gulf Island, > near > > > > Vancouver, > > > > > and began sailing with my Great-grandfather, a shipwright, > from > > the > > > > age of > > > > > 3, on the boats which he built.. As well, my grandfather was a > > > > boilermaker, > > > > > in the shipyards. I built two 83 foot fishing boats in the > > > > Philippines, in > > > > > the early 90s. I will be opening a boatyard, in the near > > future, and > > > > would > > > > > not consider a "Swain" to be worthy of construction, if built > > to his > > > > > recommendations. No fear, Wynand, I have no plans to compete > > with > > > you on > > > > > Vandestadts. From what I've heard, you'd be a hard act to > > follow. > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > > > 8/11/2008 > > > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: > > 8/11/2008 > > > 4:59 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 18054|18049|2008-08-13 14:04:21|brentswain38|Re: Another case for a steel boat ....|In 1973 I ran into an Aussie steel boat in the Marquesas that was finishing a circxumnavigation. She had ran into several whales between the Galapagos and Marquesas and considered colliding with a whale at night, doing hull speed, no big deal.They said it was like hitting a giant pillow. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > This Reminds me of a incident last year, I believe, where a guy got > rammed by a whale and lost his Fiberglas boat in less than a half > hour. Likewise he was picked up by a large commercial vessel. > > In any event it points out the need to know your way around your > safety equipment. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Aug 13, 2008, at 5:11 AM, sae140 wrote: > > > It's not just the hard stuff around land that takes boats out ... > > > > http://www.nci.org.uk/?q=node/607 > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 18055|17994|2008-08-13 14:57:46|aaron riis|Re: Good? Old Epoxy|Eight years ago I bought four gallons of wasser moisture cure mc tar and zinc for bellow the water line.  The salesman at the time told me that it only had a shelf life of eighteen months.  I thought, well I might as well try it, so early before I sandblasted, I tried it on a piece of scrap metal, and it went hard as a rock.  It dripped, but that was my fault.  Painted the whole outside of my 26 with it.  also I painted amerlock 400 over the moisture cure mc tar and so far the two have stuck together.  Winston gave me 5 gallons of devoe bar rust, probably 20 years old and again it worked. Aaron --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Tom Mann wrote: From: Tom Mann Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Good? Old Epoxy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 6:02 PM Sounds Like a heck of a deal to me as long as the cans havnt been opened, I have been paying about $45 a gallon for the 646 and thats with about a 50% savings. can you get a deal on the reducer to , its around $24 a gallon. The 646 they say dont add tint it if using below water line or for water barrier , should be eather black or mill white. Tom On 8/9/08, Doug wrote: > > I have access to a lot of old Sherwin Williams two part marine epoxy > paint for $5 a gallon if I take everything. It varies in age but some > of it is up to 6 years old. It has always been stored above freezing. > > It is also a mix of types of marine paint. > Epoxide Potable Water Epoxy > Macropoxy 646 Potable Water Epoxy (2-part) > Tile-Clad - Waterbased Epoxy Primer > Epoxy Mastic Coating > > Does anyone have experience with using epoxy paint that is way beyond > it's expiration period? > > Perhapses it would be good for the hull interior and as second coat > over fresh epoxy on the hull exterior? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > www.submarineboat. com > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18056|18000|2008-08-13 18:27:57|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 03:10:29AM -0700, Carl Volkwein wrote: > How about if you start out with one of those 5 day Coleman coolers, and put more insulation around it, and on top of it? Y'know, if the shape that I had to work with had been reasonable for that, that's exactly what I'd have done. Unfortunately, it wasn't; in fact, the finished shape is a smaller version of the starting one, minus some unevenness. This is, however, a really good idea for anyone planning an icebox on their boat. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18057|18049|2008-08-13 18:28:06|Ben Okopnik|Re: Another case for a steel boat ....|On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 09:11:47AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > It's not just the hard stuff around land that takes boats out ... > > http://www.nci.org.uk/?q=node/607 It's not an uncommon problem with multihulls: when the outriggers are hanging in the air, supported only by the lateral struts, or when they slam down onto the water in heavy weather, the struts tend to fail (unsurprisingly.) I had a friend who had built a Piver tri - and was advised by Piver himself while doing it - which started coming apart that way in heavy weather off Columbia; he had to beach it and spent months redesigning and rebuilding those weak points. For all their "advantages" (which all come down to speed), give me a good monohull any day. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18058|18000|2008-08-13 19:23:46|mark hamill|Re: Icebox liner|Hi: You've probably already have thought of this--put a drain with a plug in. Maybe ever drain it through a hull cock for those yogurt, macaroni salad and,,,,,? disasters. Some of the boats I have been working on have a seperate pump and a strainer in between the box and the pump. not exactly KISS but.... Mark| 18059|18000|2008-08-13 19:53:10|Tom Mann|Re: Icebox liner|Hey Bin thats what I did on my 26 just behind sink, pretty small but should work out for weekend trips, I allso made it come out so I can add a 48 quart to the side of galley when needed, I loose one seat out of four when its there just figured if anyone complained they could walk the plank! Tom On 8/13/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 03:10:29AM -0700, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > How about if you start out with one of those 5 day Coleman coolers, and > put more insulation around it, and on top of it? > > Y'know, if the shape that I had to work with had been reasonable for > that, that's exactly what I'd have done. Unfortunately, it wasn't; in > fact, the finished shape is a smaller version of the starting one, minus > some unevenness. > > This is, however, a really good idea for anyone planning an icebox on > their boat. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18060|17994|2008-08-13 22:37:25|r_graffi|Re: Good? Old Epoxy|Epoxy Paints are not pre catalyzed like polyester resin so they should last indefinitely (a long time) thats my understanding. They might settle or clump or separate but shouldn't go off. Regards RG > Eight years ago I bought four gallons of wasser moisture cure mc tar > and zinc for bellow the water line. The salesman at the time told me > that it only had a shelf life of eighteen months. I thought, well I > might as well try it, so early before I sandblasted, I tried it on a > piece of scrap metal, and it went hard as a rock. It dripped, but > that was my fault. Painted the whole outside of my 26 with it. also > I painted amerlock 400 over the moisture cure mc tar and so far the > two have stuck together. Winston gave me 5 gallons of devoe bar rust, > probably 20 years old and again it worked. > > Aaron > > --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Tom Mann > wrote: > From: Tom Mann > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Good? Old Epoxy > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 6:02 PM > > Sounds Like a heck of a deal to me as long as the cans havnt been > opened, I > > have been paying about $45 a gallon for the 646 and thats with about a 50% > > savings. can you get a deal on the reducer to , its around $24 a gallon. > > The 646 they say dont add tint it if using below water line or for water > > barrier , should be eather black or mill white. > > Tom > > On 8/9/08, Doug wrote: > > > > > > I have access to a lot of old Sherwin Williams two part marine epoxy > > > paint for $5 a gallon if I take everything. It varies in age but some > > > of it is up to 6 years old. It has always been stored above freezing. > > > > > > It is also a mix of types of marine paint. > > > Epoxide Potable Water Epoxy > > > Macropoxy 646 Potable Water Epoxy (2-part) > > > Tile-Clad - Waterbased Epoxy Primer > > > Epoxy Mastic Coating > > > > > > Does anyone have experience with using epoxy paint that is way beyond > > > it's expiration period? > > > > > > Perhapses it would be good for the hull interior and as second coat > > > over fresh epoxy on the hull exterior? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug & Kay Jackson > > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1610 - Release Date: 8/13/2008 4:14 PM > | 18061|17994|2008-08-13 23:01:58|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Water Based Epoxy & Good? Old Epoxy|My guy has 100 gal water based epoxy too.? I think it is mainly used on concrete. I have heard of anyone using this on a steel hull.? Does anyone have experience with water based epoxy? About Old Epoxy; I talked to a guy with the commercial sales side of? Sherwin Williams today and he said that they pull to epoxy off the shelf after 3 years and send it to a warehouse where it is tested.? If it passes it gets repackaged and put back in the inventory. -- Doug J www.submarineboat.com -----Original Message----- From: r_graffi To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 9:37 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Good? Old Epoxy Epoxy Paints are not pre catalyzed like polyester resin so they should last indefinitely (a long time) thats my understanding. They might settle or clump or separate but shouldn't go off. Regards RG [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18062|18062|2008-08-14 00:23:36|Tom Mann|Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Hello All I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to weld and build there own boat. I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick is the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both have there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web site they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what it is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. Most rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the claim that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if whatever method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself "meaning the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say that is not the correct way, you should use this? And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking about from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower right side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions the rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into the testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info is availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion or heresay, its from resurch development and testing http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 Hopfully this helps someone Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18063|18063|2008-08-14 04:00:09|brigittesnews|Freebies 14th August|I was sent another excellent link by my friend. This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the latest freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. Keep your eyes open for new freebie pages, they post them each week! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/?page=12 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 18064|18000|2008-08-14 09:06:34|audeojude|Re: Icebox liner|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 03:10:29AM -0700, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > How about if you start out with one of those 5 day Coleman coolers, and put more insulation around it, and on top of it? > > Y'know, if the shape that I had to work with had been reasonable for > that, that's exactly what I'd have done. Unfortunately, it wasn't; in > fact, the finished shape is a smaller version of the starting one, minus > some unevenness. > > This is, however, a really good idea for anyone planning an icebox on > their boat. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * I just saw a 9? day 48? quart cooler at sam's yesterday It even had a little lid in the middle of the larger lid so you didnt have to open the whole thing up to get into it. For pure utility you probably can't beat that price vs function point. As to looks... well it will still sorta look like a cooler :) unless you build it right in. another plus of a cooler is that they already have a built in drain also. > | 18065|18062|2008-08-14 09:53:18|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller and Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build boats is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on my list. Doug J www.submarineboat.com -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore Hello All I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to weld and build there own boat. I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick is the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both have there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web site they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what it is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. Most rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the claim that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if whatever method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself "meaning the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say that is not the correct way, you should use this? And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking about from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower right side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions the rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into the testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info is availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion or heresay, its from resurch development and testing http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 Hopfully this helps someone Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18066|18062|2008-08-14 22:02:45|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. There is so much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the small parts where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then one day we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall apart after galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I decided to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 failed! What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. In desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. You had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We had some outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. Every time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after galvanizing. We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller and > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build boats > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on my > list. > > Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to > > weld and build there own boat. > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick is > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both > have > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web > site > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what > it > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. > Most > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the > claim > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > whatever > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > "meaning > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say > that > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking about > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower > right > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions > the > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into the > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info > is > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion or > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > > Hopfully this helps someone > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18067|18062|2008-08-14 23:12:23|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Gary How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done chewing out my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling me I was MIG welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I told him BS and proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" taught me. So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux core wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to compete with Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in the Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the gun.? We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling the hull together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will do everything else.? So what is the right stick? And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with gas if I can avoid it) What about for attaching and welding the stainless? Thanks Doug & Kay www.submarineboat.com -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. There is so much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the small parts where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then one day we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall apart after galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I decided to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 failed! What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. In desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. You had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We had some outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. Every time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after galvanizing. We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller and > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build boats > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on my > list. > > Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to > > weld and build there own boat. > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick is > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both > have > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web > site > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what > it > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. > Most > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the > claim > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > whatever > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > "meaning > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say > that > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking about > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower > right > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions > the > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into the > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info > is > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion or > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > > Hopfully this helps someone > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18068|18062|2008-08-14 23:34:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:02:27PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. In > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. You > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. That was one of the very first things I discovered when I first tried welding [1] - "when in doubt, turn up the heat." As far as weld strength goes, there's almost no such thing as "too close" - at least when given enough heat. Even 6011, which many beginning welders complain about, makes a _fine_ drag rod, and produces strong, nice-looking welds with minimum sparks and minimal chipping when used this way. There are times when welding can get very, very tricky indeed - but the average weld on a hull should be very easy. If it's not, turn up the heat and shove the rod right into the pool. :) [1] I've discovered, over many years of trial and error, that the best way for me to learn almost anything is to first try doing it myself, without any help. When I finally reach a point where I can't make any headway in any direction, that's the right time to talk to a pro (or find a teacher) - because *then* I know what questions to ask, and can make good use of the answers. As a result of doing it this way, I learn things very, very quickly: in fact, I usually end up at the top of whatever class I'm in. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18069|18062|2008-08-15 00:42:04|Paul Wilson|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Although I have welded a lot I have always been ashamed to say I know how to weld since I realize I don't have any technical knowledge. I always considered myself a hack since I was only using only a couple of kinds of rods on mild steel and stainless plates. I finally signed up for a community welding course about a month ago so I can at least fake being a welder. It turns out that my welds are OK, and my boat isn't going to fall apart, but it's nice to hear someone else say it :). Welding always gets lots of discussion, and reading everything about it can get pretty over-whelming. I don't think it's all that complicated, but you need lots of practice and an experienced welder to steer you in the right direction. I would encourage everyone to take a course, if you can, from a good school. I think if I had taken a good course and experienced a lot of different rods and equipment, it may have saved some time when I was building the boat. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 2:02 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. There is so much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the small parts where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then one day we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall apart after galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I decided to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 failed! What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. In desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. You had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We had some outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. Every time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after galvanizing. We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller and > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build boats > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on my > list. > > Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to > > weld and build there own boat. > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick is > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both > have > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web > site > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what > it > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. > Most > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the > claim > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > whatever > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > "meaning > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say > that > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking about > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower > right > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions > the > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into the > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info > is > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion or > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > > Hopfully this helps someone > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - Release Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18070|18070|2008-08-15 09:17:22|jmazur29|Tig welding: procedure, strength, warp?|Can anyone describe the benefits and drawback to TIG welding a BS31 hull and all its components using Mild Steel. Are there any issues with strength or excessive heat into the plate causing warp? Does the the fitting of plates/joints have to be more precise? Thank you, All comments are welcome. Jim| 18071|18070|2008-08-15 12:19:29|David Frantz|Re: Tig welding: procedure, strength, warp?|The first comment I have is when do you want to finish? When I hear TIG I think slooooow. Then you have to think about the wind. If those issues aren't a problem for you then I suppose it is possible. As to heat introduced distortion that is always possible with any sort of welding. Like wise every process benefits from a good fit up of the parts. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 15, 2008, at 9:17 AM, jmazur29 wrote: > > Can anyone describe the benefits and drawback to TIG welding a BS31 > hull and all its components using Mild Steel. > > Are there any issues with strength or excessive heat into the plate > causing warp? > > Does the the fitting of plates/joints have to be more precise? > > Thank you, All comments are welcome. > > Jim > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18072|18070|2008-08-15 12:44:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Tig welding: procedure, strength, warp?|On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 01:17:20PM -0000, jmazur29 wrote: > > Can anyone describe the benefits and drawback to TIG welding a BS31 > hull and all its components using Mild Steel. The main benefit to TIG is that it's more precise (and you can wear white gloves and look like a mad scientist instead of a grimy, grungy firemonkey. :) That being said, using it to build a boat would be like scrubbing the pavement with a toothbrush instead of using a wide broom. There are many places where precision is a detriment. TIG is also the most expensive (equipment and supplies both) method for welding. Brent's got it right: a buzzbox plus some basic AC/DC rod is all you need. > Are there any issues with strength or excessive heat into the plate > causing warp? TIG can (depending on the operator) result in the highest-quality weld with a smaller HAZ (Heat-Affected Zone) than any other method. However, this isn't a problem with any of the other methods when it comes to welding up a hull, so these aren't really valid points for comparison. > Does the the fitting of plates/joints have to be more precise? Yes, this is another one of the drawbacks. TIG is enormously easier when you have a precise fit - although you can learn to build up an edge or fill a hole, it's pretty fiddly and time consuming as compared to basic arc welding. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18073|18000|2008-08-15 13:10:57|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 04:18:23PM +1200, Paul Thompson wrote: > > When I made the ice box that I have now used aboard La Chica since > 1989 I used Formica on the inside, which I glued to 8mm (3/8) ply with > Aluminium foil glued to the outward facing side of the ply. I then > had the box surrounded by 100mm (4in) of polyurethane foam. The foam > was purchased from a refrigeration company and it was built up from > 25mm (1in) pieces. Each piece had Aluminium Foil on one side. In the > corners, the foam was staggered so there was no straight line that > heat could leak through. For the inside corners, I used M3 5200 to > make a nice radius (use a suitable spoon and lots of spit. For some > reason the 5200 does not stick to spit. You do get a little teeth > whitening if you are not careful :-) [laugh] And tastes disgusting, of course. Yeah, I've had my experience with that - water doesn't seem to do it, but spit does. > . Over the years, the 5200 has > turned yellow but has never showed any sign of coming off. Neither has > the Formica given any trouble. Good to know - thanks! That sounds quite a bit easier than FG cloth, epoxy, etc. > The other possibility that I could think of, would be to get a > polyurethane water tank and cut one side off to make the box. I bought > a 15 Gal (I think) tank from West Marine that is very similar in > dimension to what you want. Unfortunately, none of their tanks come even close, size-wise. Well, the 55-gallon does, when set on end - but it's three times longer than I need (with a corresponding price tag.) > I think that you could use 5200 to radius > the corners. Yeah, that should stick to polyurethane - if I ever find something that fits. > However, the Formica and ply box has served me well and I would not > hesitate to use the same method again. Well, that method is now my second choice if I can't find something that fits. Thanks, Paul! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18074|18070|2008-08-15 13:17:52|Aaron Williams|Re: Tig welding: procedure, strength, warp?|That would take a very loooooooong time and be 10 time more expensive. Argon has almost doubled in cost. --- On Fri, 8/15/08, jmazur29 wrote: From: jmazur29 Subject: [origamiboats] Tig welding: procedure, strength, warp? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 5:17 AM Can anyone describe the benefits and drawback to TIG welding a BS31 hull and all its components using Mild Steel. Are there any issues with strength or excessive heat into the plate causing warp? Does the the fitting of plates/joints have to be more precise? Thank you, All comments are welcome. Jim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18075|18070|2008-08-15 18:00:35|brentswain38|Re: Tig welding: procedure, strength, warp?|It would take forever with no real benefit. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jmazur29" wrote: > > > Can anyone describe the benefits and drawback to TIG welding a BS31 > hull and all its components using Mild Steel. > > Are there any issues with strength or excessive heat into the plate > causing warp? > > Does the the fitting of plates/joints have to be more precise? > > Thank you, All comments are welcome. > > Jim > | 18076|18062|2008-08-15 18:07:56|brentswain38|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Some welders , welding being about all they know much about, tend to try portray themseves as "Gurus " and "Magicians", acting as if the only relevant issue in metal boats is the weld. They often operate on the principle that"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance , baffle them with bull." Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Gary > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done chewing out my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling me I was MIG welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I told him BS and proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" taught me. > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux core wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to compete with Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in the Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the gun.? We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling the hull together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will do everything else.? > > So what is the right stick? > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with gas if I can avoid it) > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. There is so > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the small parts > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then one day > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall apart after > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I decided > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 > > failed! > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. In > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. You > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We had some > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. Every > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after galvanizing. > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller and > > > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build boats > > > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on my > > > list. > > > > > > Doug J > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to > > > > > > weld and build there own boat. > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick is > > > > > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both > > > have > > > > > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web > > > site > > > > > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what > > > it > > > > > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. > > > Most > > > > > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the > > > claim > > > > > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > > > whatever > > > > > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you > > > > > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > > > "meaning > > > > > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say > > > that > > > > > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > > > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that > > > > > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > > > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > > > > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking about > > > > > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower > > > right > > > > > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions > > > the > > > > > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into the > > > > > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > > > > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info > > > is > > > > > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion or > > > > > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > > > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > > > > > > Hopfully this helps someone > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18077|18000|2008-08-15 18:14:24|mark hamill|Re: Icebox liner|Ben: dish detergent in the water will give it the magical qualities of spit. Markh| 18078|18078|2008-08-15 18:26:54|Gerald Niffenegger|trinidad|Brent I made it as far as Aruba where my associate took over. We bought a 56 foot twin master in Panama and are battling across the Caribbean trying to get the boat here to Brasil. Looking for advice about storage locations in Trinidad. Where we might leave the boat until next year and complete the next leg of the trip. Gerald Niffenegger Florianopolis, SC Brasil| 18079|18062|2008-08-15 19:45:36|Aaron Williams|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Brent There is a lot of truth in that. I passed my CWI test in Feb this year and now have to use the written  procedures at work.(it does make me more self conscious about my own quality) I am not interested in making claims of what is best to use on or who's boat. The company may be bound by rules and laws but the guy that wants to build for themselves just need to know how to make good weld with whatever they decide to use. Keep it Simple..... Aaron --- On Fri, 8/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 2:07 PM Some welders , welding being about all they know much about, tend to try portray themseves as "Gurus " and "Magicians", acting as if the only relevant issue in metal boats is the weld. They often operate on the principle that"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance , baffle them with bull." Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, djackson99@. .. wrote: > > > Gary > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done chewing out my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling me I was MIG welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I told him BS and proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" taught me. > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux core wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to compete with Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in the Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the gun.? We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling the hull together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will do everything else.? > > So what is the right stick? > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with gas if I can avoid it) > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay > www.submarineboat. com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. There is so > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the small parts > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then one day > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall apart after > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I decided > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 > > failed! > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. In > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. You > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We had some > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. Every > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after galvanizing. > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller and > > > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build boats > > > is invaluable.? ? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on my > > > list. > > > > > > Doug J > > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to > > > > > > weld and build there own boat. > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull somtimes, > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick is > > > > > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both > > > have > > > > > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web > > > site > > > > > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what > > > it > > > > > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. > > > Most > > > > > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the > > > claim > > > > > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > > > whatever > > > > > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you > > > > > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > > > "meaning > > > > > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say > > > that > > > > > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > > > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that > > > > > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > > > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > > > > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking about > > > > > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower > > > right > > > > > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions > > > the > > > > > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into the > > > > > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > > > > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info > > > is > > > > > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion or > > > > > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > > > > http://www.mylincol nelectric. com/Catalog/ consumabledatash eet.aspx? p=12396 > > > > > > Hopfully this helps someone > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18080|18080|2008-08-15 20:27:18|prairiemaidca|changing email address|Hi there: We now have high speed internet on our acreage and a new computer. Can any of you computer literates help with the procedure for changing to my new email address on this site. I did what the site said and all I got was an address to contact that was a mile long and wouldn't let me even click on it. We even copied it and replyed to it with no response. Prairie Maid is still being finished with interior work ongoing. Head fiberglassing is about to start. I now have a digital camera and have some pics for the site if and when I can figure out how that works. Building the boat is nothing compared to figuring out this computer %$%^$##$$ ]. MARTIN FORSTER| 18081|18062|2008-08-15 21:24:08|Tom Mann|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Thanks Brent I needed a good laugh, good way to put it. Thats kinda the intent of the thread so anyone can go lookup the info and figure out if its bull or not. I do have one question though, I have read and heard some saying 6011 is hard to master and it takes a special techneak to run it. I was thinking mabee I had been running it so long that I didnt relise it , yesterday I was welding truss's up and today welding perlins and I couldnt realy see anything special about it, pretty much just streight welding. I do use a bit of a wip on occation to take advantage of the fast freeze. Is there realy somthing like what they are saying? or Tom On 8/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > Some welders , welding being about all they know much about, tend to > try portray themseves as "Gurus " and "Magicians", acting as if the > only relevant issue in metal boats is the weld. They often operate on > the principle that"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance , baffle > them with bull." > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > > > Gary > > > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done > chewing out my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling > me I was MIG welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I > told him BS and proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" > taught me. > > > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux > core wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to > compete with Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in > the Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and > Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the > gun.? We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling > the hull together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will > do everything else.? > > > > So what is the right stick? > > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with > gas if I can avoid it) > > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > > > Thanks > > Doug & Kay > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. > There is so > > > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat > > > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the > small parts > > > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. > > > > > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then > > > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then > one day > > > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall > apart after > > > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I > decided > > > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 > > > > failed! > > > > > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > > > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee > it. In > > > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot > hotter. You > > > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > > > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We > had some > > > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. > Every > > > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after > galvanizing. > > > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the > Miller and > > > > > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build > boats > > > > > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next > on my > > > > > list. > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > > > > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to > learn to > > > > > > > > > > weld and build there own boat. > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told > stick is > > > > > > > > > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are > varables,both > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's > web > > > > > site > > > > > > > > > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription > of what > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild > ect. > > > > > Most > > > > > > > > > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making > the > > > > > claim > > > > > > > > > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > > > > > whatever > > > > > > > > > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building > and you > > > > > > > > > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > > > > > "meaning > > > > > > > > > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone > say > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > > > > > > > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this > if that > > > > > > > > > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > > > > > > > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > > > > > > > > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am > talking about > > > > > > > > > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the > lower > > > > > right > > > > > > > > > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what > positions > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you > into the > > > > > > > > > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > > > > > > > > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, > same info > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on > opinion or > > > > > > > > > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > > > > > > > > > > Hopfully this helps someone > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18082|18062|2008-08-16 05:15:36|Tom|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|And when I first used 6011, 30 years ago, they called 6011, "easy weld," did I miss something? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Thanks Brent I needed a good laugh, good way to put it. > Thats kinda the intent of the thread so anyone can go lookup the info and > figure out if its bull or not. > I do have one question though, I have read and heard some saying 6011 is > hard to master and it takes a special techneak to run it. I was thinking > mabee I had been running it so long that I didnt relise it , yesterday I was > welding truss's up and today welding perlins and I couldnt realy see > anything special about it, pretty much just streight welding. > I do use a bit of a wip on occation to take advantage of the fast freeze. > Is there realy somthing like what they are saying? or > Tom > > > On 8/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Some welders , welding being about all they know much about, tend to > > try portray themseves as "Gurus " and "Magicians", acting as if the > > only relevant issue in metal boats is the weld. They often operate on > > the principle that"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance , baffle > > them with bull." > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done > > chewing out my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling > > me I was MIG welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I > > told him BS and proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" > > taught me. > > > > > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux > > core wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to > > compete with Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > > > > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in > > the Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and > > Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the > > gun.? We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling > > the hull together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will > > do everything else.? > > > > > > So what is the right stick? > > > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with > > gas if I can avoid it) > > > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug & Kay > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. > > There is so > > > > > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat > > > > > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the > > small parts > > > > > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. > > > > > > > > > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then > > > > > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then > > one day > > > > > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall > > apart after > > > > > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I > > decided > > > > > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 > > > > > > failed! > > > > > > > > > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > > > > > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee > > it. In > > > > > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot > > hotter. You > > > > > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > > > > > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We > > had some > > > > > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. > > Every > > > > > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after > > galvanizing. > > > > > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the > > Miller and > > > > > > > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build > > boats > > > > > > > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next > > on my > > > > > > > list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to > > learn to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weld and build there own boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told > > stick is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are > > varables,both > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's > > web > > > > > > > site > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription > > of what > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild > > ect. > > > > > > > Most > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making > > the > > > > > > > claim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > > > > > > > whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building > > and you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > > > > > > > "meaning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone > > say > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this > > if that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am > > talking about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the > > lower > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > > > > > > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what > > positions > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you > > into the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, > > same info > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on > > opinion or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx? p=12396 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopfully this helps someone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18083|18062|2008-08-16 10:16:19|Tom Mann|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Tom No you didnt miss anything, I had heard that before and then a couple welders on another forum said the same. I never did have any school lernin on stick welding. Bit of a different story , Back around 1982 came home from the army and jobs were hard to find even the minumum wage ones were hard to get , anyway I lucked out and got hired to work on a dairy, paid good + house and utilities, bout two weeks into the job we were all setting in the shop having a pepsi and the boss tells the mechanic teach tom to weld, He looks at me and asked you ever welded before or had a class and I said no, he tells boss I cant teach him and the boss tells him teach him anyway, we walk to the back of shop and he fires up the little buss box welder and runs a bead, hands me the stinger and said do it like that. We did 3 different welds like that in about 5 minutes and the main boss walks in and said class is over start building gates, everyone leaves and Im standing there looking at bundles of pipe with a piece of paper in my hand with the measurments. had about 50 gates to build for a new dairy . Very awkward position to be in , do it and keep my job or walk. I managed ,the first few gates the welds were pretty nasty looking but they did hold, It wasnt that hard to figure it out but it sure would have been nice to have some guidance. That is why I asked about the statment its hard to learn. I allways figured if I could learn that way anyone could if they wanted to ? Tom M On 8/16/08, Tom wrote: > > > And when I first used 6011, 30 years ago, they called 6011, "easy > weld," did I miss something? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent I needed a good laugh, good way to put it. > > Thats kinda the intent of the thread so anyone can go lookup the > info and > > figure out if its bull or not. > > I do have one question though, I have read and heard some saying > 6011 is > > hard to master and it takes a special techneak to run it. I was > thinking > > mabee I had been running it so long that I didnt relise it , > yesterday I was > > welding truss's up and today welding perlins and I couldnt realy see > > anything special about it, pretty much just streight welding. > > I do use a bit of a wip on occation to take advantage of the fast > freeze. > > Is there realy somthing like what they are saying? or > > Tom > > > > > > On 8/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > Some welders , welding being about all they know much about, tend > to > > > try portray themseves as "Gurus " and "Magicians", acting as if > the > > > only relevant issue in metal boats is the weld. They often > operate on > > > the principle that"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance , > baffle > > > them with bull." > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done > > > chewing out my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for > telling > > > me I was MIG welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire > speed. I > > > told him BS and proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master > Welder" > > > taught me. > > > > > > > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and > flux > > > core wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have > to > > > compete with Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > > > > > > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat > in > > > the Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec > V300 and > > > Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to > the > > > gun.? We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when > pulling > > > the hull together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder > will > > > do everything else.? > > > > > > > > So what is the right stick? > > > > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess > with > > > gas if I can avoid it) > > > > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Doug & Kay > > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and > folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. > > > There is so > > > > > > > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold > the boat > > > > > > > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the > > > small parts > > > > > > > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of > stress. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle > iron, then > > > > > > > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. > Then > > > one day > > > > > > > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall > > > apart after > > > > > > > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one > thousand I > > > decided > > > > > > > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more > than 100 > > > > > > > > failed! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that > everyone > > > > > > > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not > guarantee > > > it. In > > > > > > > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot > > > hotter. You > > > > > > > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were > not as > > > > > > > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. > We > > > had some > > > > > > > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" > wire. > > > Every > > > > > > > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after > > > galvanizing. > > > > > > > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot > back! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and > folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the > bull > > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the > > > Miller and > > > > > > > > > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to > build > > > boats > > > > > > > > > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is > next > > > on my > > > > > > > > > list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and > folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting > to > > > learn to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weld and build there own boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the > bull > > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was > told > > > stick is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are > > > varables,both > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or > esab's > > > web > > > > > > > > > site > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a > discription > > > of what > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, > yeild > > > ect. > > > > > > > > > Most > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone > making > > > the > > > > > > > > > claim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . > Now if > > > > > > > > > whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat > building > > > and you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel > itself > > > > > > > > > "meaning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can > anyone > > > say > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about > this > > > if that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of > welding ie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am > > > talking about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at > the > > > lower > > > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what > > > positions > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take > you > > > into the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page > click on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > products then get into the consumable section and brows > around, > > > same info > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based > on > > > opinion or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx? > p=12396 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopfully this helps someone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18084|18062|2008-08-17 09:59:47|Carl Volkwein|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|I didn't have any "school learn'n" either, but the first job I had after highschool[in 1974] was a welding job, I worked in a fabricating shop owned by my Dad, and all we had was 6013 and for heavier welds 7014.    They made beautiful welds, and were easy to master, hope this helps. carlvolkwein@... --- On Sat, 8/16/08, Tom Mann wrote: From: Tom Mann Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 16, 2008, 10:16 AM Tom No you didnt miss anything, I had heard that before and then a couple welders on another forum said the same. I never did have any school lernin on stick welding. Bit of a different story , Back around 1982 came home from the army and jobs were hard to find even the minumum wage ones were hard to get , anyway I lucked out and got hired to work on a dairy, paid good + house and utilities, bout two weeks into the job we were all setting in the shop having a pepsi and the boss tells the mechanic teach tom to weld, He looks at me and asked you ever welded before or had a class and I said no, he tells boss I cant teach him and the boss tells him teach him anyway, we walk to the back of shop and he fires up the little buss box welder and runs a bead, hands me the stinger and said do it like that. We did 3 different welds like that in about 5 minutes and the main boss walks in and said class is over start building gates, everyone leaves and Im standing there looking at bundles of pipe with a piece of paper in my hand with the measurments. had about 50 gates to build for a new dairy . Very awkward position to be in , do it and keep my job or walk. I managed ,the first few gates the welds were pretty nasty looking but they did hold, It wasnt that hard to figure it out but it sure would have been nice to have some guidance. That is why I asked about the statment its hard to learn. I allways figured if I could learn that way anyone could if they wanted to ? Tom M On 8/16/08, Tom wrote: > > > And when I first used 6011, 30 years ago, they called 6011, "easy > weld," did I miss something? > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent I needed a good laugh, good way to put it. > > Thats kinda the intent of the thread so anyone can go lookup the > info and > > figure out if its bull or not. > > I do have one question though, I have read and heard some saying > 6011 is > > hard to master and it takes a special techneak to run it. I was > thinking > > mabee I had been running it so long that I didnt relise it , > yesterday I was > > welding truss's up and today welding perlins and I couldnt realy see > > anything special about it, pretty much just streight welding. > > I do use a bit of a wip on occation to take advantage of the fast > freeze. > > Is there realy somthing like what they are saying? or > > Tom > > > > > > On 8/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > Some welders , welding being about all they know much about, tend > to > > > try portray themseves as "Gurus " and "Magicians", acting as if > the > > > only relevant issue in metal boats is the weld. They often > operate on > > > the principle that"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance , > baffle > > > them with bull." > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done > > > chewing out my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for > telling > > > me I was MIG welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire > speed. I > > > told him BS and proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master > Welder" > > > taught me. > > > > > > > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and > flux > > > core wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have > to > > > compete with Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > > > > > > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat > in > > > the Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec > V300 and > > > Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to > the > > > gun.? We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when > pulling > > > the hull together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder > will > > > do everything else.? > > > > > > > > So what is the right stick? > > > > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess > with > > > gas if I can avoid it) > > > > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Doug & Kay > > > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and > folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. > > > There is so > > > > > > > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold > the boat > > > > > > > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the > > > small parts > > > > > > > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of > stress. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle > iron, then > > > > > > > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. > Then > > > one day > > > > > > > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall > > > apart after > > > > > > > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one > thousand I > > > decided > > > > > > > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more > than 100 > > > > > > > > failed! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that > everyone > > > > > > > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not > guarantee > > > it. In > > > > > > > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot > > > hotter. You > > > > > > > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were > not as > > > > > > > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. > We > > > had some > > > > > > > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" > wire. > > > Every > > > > > > > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after > > > galvanizing. > > > > > > > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot > back! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and > folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the > bull > > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the > > > Miller and > > > > > > > > > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to > build > > > boats > > > > > > > > > is invaluable.? ? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is > next > > > on my > > > > > > > > > list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and > folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting > to > > > learn to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weld and build there own boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the > bull > > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was > told > > > stick is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are > > > varables,both > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or > esab's > > > web > > > > > > > > > site > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a > discription > > > of what > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, > yeild > > > ect. > > > > > > > > > Most > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone > making > > > the > > > > > > > > > claim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . > Now if > > > > > > > > > whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat > building > > > and you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel > itself > > > > > > > > > "meaning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can > anyone > > > say > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about > this > > > if that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of > welding ie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am > > > talking about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at > the > > > lower > > > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what > > > positions > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take > you > > > into the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page > click on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > products then get into the consumable section and brows > around, > > > same info > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based > on > > > opinion or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mylincol nelectric. com/Catalog/ consumabledatash eet.aspx? > p=12396 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopfully this helps someone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18085|18062|2008-08-17 17:43:01|brentswain38|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Just dig it in deep. I love letting clients who are picking up a stinger for the first time , weld the lugs on for the comealongs, then when they are no longer needed letting them try pound them off with a sledgehammer. When they are totally exhuasted and they haven't broken yet, or have broken well away from the weld, they stop worrying about weld strength. I think what'a youare being told about special techniques for 6011 is more snake oil salesmanship. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Thanks Brent I needed a good laugh, good way to put it. > Thats kinda the intent of the thread so anyone can go lookup the info and > figure out if its bull or not. > I do have one question though, I have read and heard some saying 6011 is > hard to master and it takes a special techneak to run it. I was thinking > mabee I had been running it so long that I didnt relise it , yesterday I was > welding truss's up and today welding perlins and I couldnt realy see > anything special about it, pretty much just streight welding. > I do use a bit of a wip on occation to take advantage of the fast freeze. > Is there realy somthing like what they are saying? or > Tom > > > On 8/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Some welders , welding being about all they know much about, tend to > > try portray themseves as "Gurus " and "Magicians", acting as if the > > only relevant issue in metal boats is the weld. They often operate on > > the principle that"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance , baffle > > them with bull." > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done > > chewing out my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling > > me I was MIG welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I > > told him BS and proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" > > taught me. > > > > > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux > > core wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to > > compete with Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > > > > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in > > the Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and > > Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the > > gun.? We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling > > the hull together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will > > do everything else.? > > > > > > So what is the right stick? > > > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with > > gas if I can avoid it) > > > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug & Kay > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. > > There is so > > > > > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat > > > > > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the > > small parts > > > > > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. > > > > > > > > > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then > > > > > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then > > one day > > > > > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall > > apart after > > > > > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I > > decided > > > > > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 > > > > > > failed! > > > > > > > > > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > > > > > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee > > it. In > > > > > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot > > hotter. You > > > > > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > > > > > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We > > had some > > > > > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. > > Every > > > > > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after > > galvanizing. > > > > > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the > > Miller and > > > > > > > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build > > boats > > > > > > > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next > > on my > > > > > > > list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to > > learn to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weld and build there own boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told > > stick is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are > > varables,both > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's > > web > > > > > > > site > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription > > of what > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild > > ect. > > > > > > > Most > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making > > the > > > > > > > claim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > > > > > > > whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building > > and you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > > > > > > > "meaning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone > > say > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this > > if that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am > > talking about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the > > lower > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > > > > > > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what > > positions > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you > > into the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, > > same info > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on > > opinion or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopfully this helps someone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18086|18062|2008-08-17 20:31:48|Tom Mann|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Hello Doug 70' origami thats a big one, where did you get the plans for that? You were asking about flux core wire, Have you run it before? If not I would say try it out and see how you like it . 232 would more than likely be the one to use, If I remember correctly 232 was the replacment for the 211 when it was classified for non strucual only. Last I figured solid wire with 02 gas run about 1/3 the cost of flux core, somthing to think about if you can deal with the wind and you do allready have the equipment. What is the right stick! man is that a touchie subject LOL! 1/4" mild steel, joint prep will be more criticle than rod selection if your looking for 100% strength but if your just talking about tacks any of them would work 6011 would probably be the easiest. Are you planning on grinding tacks out when you get that far with wire welds? Welding the stainless to mild steel 309/309L stick or wire is the first choice. stainless to stainless for 304 grades a 308/308L stick or wire, 316 grade 316/316L stick or wire. My $.02 and not competeing Tom On 8/14/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Gary > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done chewing out > my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling me I was MIG > welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I told him BS and > proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" taught me. > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux core > wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to compete with > Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in the > Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and > Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the gun.? > We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling the hull > together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will do everything > else.? > > So what is the right stick? > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with gas if I > can avoid it) > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. There is > so > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the small > parts > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then one day > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall apart after > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I decided > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 > > failed! > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. In > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. You > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We had some > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. Every > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after > galvanizing. > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > somtimes, > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller and > > > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build boats > > > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on my > > > list. > > > > > > Doug J > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to > > > > > > weld and build there own boat. > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > somtimes, > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick > is > > > > > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both > > > have > > > > > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web > > > site > > > > > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what > > > it > > > > > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. > > > Most > > > > > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the > > > claim > > > > > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > > > whatever > > > > > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you > > > > > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > > > "meaning > > > > > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say > > > that > > > > > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > > > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that > > > > > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > > > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > > > > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking > about > > > > > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower > > > right > > > > > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions > > > the > > > > > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into > the > > > > > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > > > > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info > > > is > > > > > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion > or > > > > > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > > > > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > > > > > > Hopfully this helps someone > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18087|18087|2008-08-17 21:25:35|Tom Mann|Mess cleaned up|Hello all Last weekend I tried to clean up stains from the clean blast, didnt have much luck stiff brush, simple green or TSP was not working so well so today I rented a 2500 psi pressure washer, worked great well worth the $48 for rental. Soaked everthing with TSP then pressure washed it twice, nice clean and white again, now I can paint one more coat inside on the bottom and the inside is finished "painting that is". I had to get another 5 gallon kit of the ceramic beads , one 5 gallon kit is not enough on the 26 if you want 2 full coats everywhere exept outside bellow water line. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18088|18062|2008-08-17 21:31:49|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Doug, Thanks for the compliment, but you know I am really not a very good welder. I can use almost every process, Gas, Tig, Mig, Stick, Brazing, etc. but what I am better at is setting up the welding machines, not welding! Your problem was setting up the machine, not manipulating the torch, so that was something I could help you with. At one point I was repairing welding machines. I used to do two or three every week, so I had to know how to use them so I could test them after the repairs. Now the talk about Tig being slow is simply not true. I had a guy teach me to weld aluminum irrigation pipe fittings. It was taking us about 5 or six minutes per end. This guy showed us how to Tig weld them in 50 seconds flat! I could never get in under a minute my self. I once installed a seam welder for making coaxial wave guide out of copper sheet. Tig welding at 400 feet per minute! When I learned to Tig weld it was with a old Lincoln Idealarc 250 stick machine with an add on hi frequency box with a valve for the gas. It had no current control. It used to take me several minutes to heat the joint enough to start welding aluminum. Then I realized I could work much faster by turning the heat up to about 200 amps on a 1/8" tungsten, get the puddle going quickly, then feed the filler wire REALLY fast to cool the puddle. So if you have the skill to feed the filler wire quickly the rate you move along the seam is about the same as stick welding at the same amperage, because the heat input, and melting rate is the close to the same for most processes. Filling holes with Tig is also much easier than with any other process. Again you just have to recognize that the filler wire feed rate controls the freeze rate of the puddle. A guy burned a big hole in an aluminum part once and asked me if I could fill it in. He had made a real mess. I said I would try and he reached for another helmet to watch. Before he could put the helmet down I had the hole filled. He asked what I had done. I told him I just demonstrated the secret, weld really fast! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 11:12 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > Gary > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done chewing out > my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling me I was MIG > welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I told him BS and > proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" taught me. > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux core > wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to compete > with Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in the > Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and > Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the > gun.? We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling the > hull together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will do > everything else.? > > So what is the right stick? > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with gas if I > can avoid it) > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. There is > so > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the small > parts > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then one > day > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall apart > after > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I decided > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 > > failed! > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. In > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. You > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We had some > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. Every > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after > galvanizing. > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > >> > >> > >> I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull >> somtimes, > >> > >> gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > >> > >> Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller and > >> Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build boats > >> is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on my > >> list. > >> > >> Doug J > >> www.submarineboat.com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Tom Mann > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Hello All > >> > >> I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to > >> > >> weld and build there own boat. > >> > >> I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull >> somtimes, > >> > >> gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > >> > >> I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick >> is > >> > >> the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both > >> have > >> > >> there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web > >> site > >> > >> they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what > >> it > >> > >> is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. > >> Most > >> > >> rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the > >> claim > >> > >> that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > >> whatever > >> > >> method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you > >> > >> make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > >> "meaning > >> > >> the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say > >> that > >> > >> is not the correct way, you should use this? > >> > >> And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that > >> > >> was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > >> > >> One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > >> > >> verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking >> about > >> > >> from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower > >> right > >> > >> side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions > >> the > >> > >> rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into >> the > >> > >> testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > >> > >> products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info > >> is > >> > >> availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion >> or > >> > >> heresay, its from resurch development and testing > >> > >> http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > >> > >> Hopfully this helps someone > >> > >> Tom > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18089|18000|2008-08-17 21:38:36|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Icebox liner|Worth looking this sight over for something to line the ice box or tankage needs. http://www.ronco-plastics.net/index.html Jon| 18090|18062|2008-08-17 23:52:46|Ben Okopnik|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 09:31:43PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > When I learned to Tig weld it was with a old Lincoln Idealarc 250 stick > machine with an add on hi frequency box with a valve for the gas. It had no > current control. It used to take me several minutes to heat the joint > enough to start welding aluminum. Then I realized I could work much faster > by turning the heat up to about 200 amps on a 1/8" tungsten, get the puddle > going quickly, then feed the filler wire REALLY fast to cool the puddle. So > if you have the skill to feed the filler wire quickly the rate you move > along the seam is about the same as stick welding at the same amperage, > because the heat input, and melting rate is the close to the same for most > processes. Gary, I would _love_ to see this some time. Man, I'm envious of your ability. :) To quote an apropos bit of Izaak Walton from "The Compleat Angler": I envy not him that eats better meat than I do, nor him that is richer, or that wears better clothes than I do. I envy no body but him, and him only, that catches more fish than I do. Similar to him, I don't envy anyone except people who are more able than I am in an area where I want to be competent. > Filling holes with Tig is also much easier than with any other process. > Again you just have to recognize that the filler wire feed rate controls the > freeze rate of the puddle. A guy burned a big hole in an aluminum part once > and asked me if I could fill it in. He had made a real mess. I said I > would try and he reached for another helmet to watch. Before he could put > the helmet down I had the hole filled. He asked what I had done. I told > him I just demonstrated the secret, weld really fast! Didn't you once mention that you're out in California? I do make it out there on business once in a while, and I'd be glad to stand you a number of beers if you teach me that little technique. Again, I don't have a TIG welder handy right now, but I'd sure be glad to have that technique in my toolbox. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18091|18091|2008-08-17 23:53:22|dpcasshv|Looking for someone real. Serious only!|I am looking for someone real. Serious only! If you are interested, plz add me here: http://xobcsfg.zoomshare.com/files/addme.htm| 18092|18000|2008-08-17 23:54:11|Ben Okopnik|Re: Icebox liner|On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 01:38:33AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Worth looking this sight over for something to line the ice box or > tankage needs. > > http://www.ronco-plastics.net/index.html Nice site - thanks, Jon! I'll check out their catalog when I next get a chance. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18093|18062|2008-08-18 00:05:52|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Hello Tom Jack Carson drew our plans has now completed a 7ft scale model. We are going up to Comox to pick it up this week and also visit Paul Liebenberg's 65ft origami that is getting close to being ready for the water.? We'll get photos of both up on our web site when we get back.? We did run flux core while putting our gantry cranes together, and we really liked it. The wind did not seem to be any problem, however there is a considerable amount of splatter and I'd like to reduce that.? Is gas shielding the answer to reducing splatter?? We are building outside, but there are often days in the Summer and Fall that wind is almost non-existent and hanging a wind break along with the shade will be easy to do when needed.? If we can save 50% off the cost of by running solid wire with gas then that is what we will likely do.? Thats for the tip, I thought the cost was about the same. No, we would not like grinding anything out. If a weld that was applied when the angle of the plates was much greater that the final angle, then we likely gouge out the first welds with the plasma cutter. Thanks for your advice. Doug Jackson -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 7:31 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore Hello Doug 70' origami thats a big one, where did you get the plans for that? You were asking about flux core wire, Have you run it before? If not I would say try it out and see how you like it . 232 would more than likely be the one to use, If I remember correctly 232 was the replacment for the 211 when it was classified for non strucual only. Last I figured solid wire with 02 gas run about 1/3 the cost of flux core, somthing to think about if you can deal with the wind and you do allready have the equipment. What is the right stick! man is that a touchie subject LOL! 1/4" mild steel, joint prep will be more criticle than rod selection if your looking for 100% strength but if your just talking about tacks any of them would work 6011 would probably be the easiest. Are you planning on grinding tacks out when you get that far with wire welds? Welding the stainless to mild steel 309/309L stick or wire is the first choice. stainless to stainless for 304 grades a 308/308L stick or wire, 316 grade 316/316L stick or wire. My $.02 and not competeing Tom On 8/14/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Gary > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done chewing out > my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling me I was MIG > welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I told him BS and > proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" taught me. > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux core > wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to compete with > Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in the > Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and > Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the gun.? > We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling the hull > together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will do everything > else.? > > So what is the right stick? > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with gas if I > can avoid it) > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. There is > so > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the small > parts > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then one day > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall apart after > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I decided > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 > > failed! > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. In > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. You > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We had some > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. Every > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after > galvanizing. > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > somtimes, > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller and > > > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build boats > > > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on my > > > list. > > > > > > Doug J > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to > > > > > > weld and build there own boat. > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > somtimes, > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick > is > > > > > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both > > > have > > > > > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web > > > site > > > > > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what > > > it > > > > > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. > > > Most > > > > > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the > > > claim > > > > > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > > > whatever > > > > > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you > > > > > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > > > "meaning > > > > > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say > > > that > > > > > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > > > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that > > > > > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > > > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > > > > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking > about > > > > > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower > > > right > > > > > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions > > > the > > > > > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into > the > > > > > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > > > > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info > > > is > > > > > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion > or > > > > > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > > > > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > > > > > > Hopfully this helps someone > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18094|18062|2008-08-18 00:19:04|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Hello Gary I don't care if your welding is any good.? I just know you had the right answer for me on aluminum so currently you have a great track record. :) I have heard the same thing about TIG.? TIG is HUGE here in Tulsa.? If you say "welding aluminum" then they assume you are using TIG.? And I know they can run if fast too, but I also know that there is a level of skill involved that I would like to avoid.? And so for me MIG has been the answer.? Thanks again Gary Doug Jackson Tulsa, Oklahoma [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18095|18062|2008-08-18 02:11:33|Tom Mann|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Doug the 02 shielding gas is about the cheapest a large bottle last a long time but it is the dirtiest, little splatter but not bad and has the deepest penatration, 75% argon 25% 02 is a bit cleaner and a prettier bead, less penatration and quit a bit more expencive, cant say whitch one is better depends on your pocket book and the apearance you want. To give you a cost idea, when I was running a lot of flux core through an LN 25 wire feeder I could burn up a 13 lbs ready reel of it in less than 2 hours easy, solid mig wire .035 or .045" I couldnt burn up a 33 lbs spool in a day, pound per pound solid wire goes farther. Interesting idea back gouging with plasma cutter never tried it, how well does that work and does it wipe out tips? Tom On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 9:05 PM, wrote: > Hello Tom > > Jack Carson drew our plans has now completed a 7ft scale model. We are > going up to Comox to pick it up this week and also visit > Paul Liebenberg's 65ft origami that is getting > close to being ready for the water.? We'll get photos of both up on our web > site when we get back.? > > We did run flux core while putting our gantry cranes together, and we > really liked it. The wind did not seem to be any problem, however there is a > considerable amount of splatter and I'd like to reduce that.? Is gas > shielding the answer to reducing splatter?? We are building outside, but > there are often days in the Summer and Fall that wind is almost non-existent > and hanging a wind break along with the shade will be easy to do when > needed.? If we can save 50% off the cost of by running solid wire with gas > then that is what we will likely do.? Thats for the tip, I thought the cost > was about the same. > > No, we would not like grinding anything out. If a weld that was applied > when the angle of the plates was much greater that the final angle, then we > likely gouge out the first welds with the plasma cutter. > > Thanks for your advice. > Doug Jackson > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 7:31 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Doug > > 70' origami thats a big one, where did you get the plans for that? > > You were asking about flux core wire, Have you run it before? If not I > > would say try it out and see how you like it . 232 would more than likely > be > > the one to use, If I remember correctly 232 was the replacment for the 211 > > when it was classified for non strucual only. > > Last I figured solid wire with 02 gas run about 1/3 the cost of flux core, > > somthing to think about if you can deal with the wind and you do allready > > have the equipment. > > What is the right stick! man is that a touchie subject LOL! 1/4" mild > > steel, joint prep will be more criticle than rod selection if your looking > > for 100% strength but if your just talking about tacks any of them would > > work 6011 would probably be the easiest. Are you planning on grinding tacks > > out when you get that far with wire welds? > > Welding the stainless to mild steel 309/309L stick or wire is the first > > choice. > > stainless to stainless for 304 grades a 308/308L stick or wire, 316 grade > > 316/316L stick or wire. > > My $.02 and not competeing > > Tom > > > > On 8/14/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done chewing out > > > my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling me I was MIG > > > welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I told him BS and > > > proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" taught me. > > > > > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux core > > > wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to compete > with > > > Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > > > > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in the > > > Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and > > > Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the > gun.? > > > We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling the hull > > > together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will do > everything > > > else.? > > > > > > So what is the right stick? > > > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with gas if > I > > > can avoid it) > > > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug & Kay > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. There is > > > so > > > > > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat > > > > > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the small > > > parts > > > > > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. > > > > > > > > > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then > > > > > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then one > day > > > > > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall apart > after > > > > > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I > decided > > > > > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 > > > > > > failed! > > > > > > > > > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > > > > > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. > In > > > > > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. > You > > > > > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > > > > > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We had > some > > > > > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. Every > > > > > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after > > > galvanizing. > > > > > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller > and > > > > > > > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build > boats > > > > > > > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on > my > > > > > > > list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weld and build there own boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web > > > > > > > site > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of > what > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. > > > > > > > Most > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the > > > > > > > claim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > > > > > > > whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > > > > > > > "meaning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > > > > > > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same > info > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopfully this helps someone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18096|18096|2008-08-18 06:05:57|petradurning|Freebies 18th August|This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the latest freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. http://www.freebietelegraph.com/?page=13 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 18097|18062|2008-08-18 07:59:31|sae140|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Doug > the 02 shielding gas is about the cheapest a large bottle last a long time > but it is the dirtiest, little splatter but not bad and has the deepest > penatration, 75% argon 25% 02 is a bit cleaner and a prettier bead, less > penatration and quit a bit more expencive, cant say whitch one is better > depends on your pocket book and the apearance you want. I'd agree with that - except change that O2 to CO2 ! Bottle rental (in the UK) is expensive, so a lot of amateur welders over here use 'pub gas' - although it's rumoured that some suppliers have begun to add some nitrogen - dunno why - but hopefully it's only a rumour. To refill - pub bottles can either be swapped at the pub, refilled at fire extinguisher servicing centres, or if you know someone where they manufacture soft drinks .... All informal arrangements, of course. CO2 fire extinguishers themselves can be used - providing they're held upside down - as they are fitted with a delivery tube which runs up from the base of the bottle to expell liquid rather than gas. But - I still reckon stick welding takes some beating for building boats. Colin| 18098|18098|2008-08-18 10:12:20|audeojude|Message etiquette|Guys, you are killing me with the long emails. If your replying to another message please crop the message and then reply to it. I'm getting messages with the last 4 and 5 posts repeated in the message. If I was to print out one post it would spread over 7 or 8 pages of paper with the extra messages and weird formatting. So please send out polite posts. delete any redundant former messages first then make sure the formatting doesn't have double spaces between every single line in the message. I get daily digests of this forum in mail and follow it that way. It's getting to where I almost don't want to bother wading through the insanity just to find the new posts/comments for the day. scott carle| 18100|18062|2008-08-18 16:07:48|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|I was wanting to take a course but our lovely governments have,over the years,knocked the more amateur oriented classes on the head and it now costs about £400 at our local tech.Nearly worth signing on the dole for cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18101|18062|2008-08-18 18:39:23|theboilerflue|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Well doug when i got my boat (it's was all tacked together when i got it) my uncle who is a welder set me up with the mig welder and i was happy with that cause i hadn't touch a stick since i was 12 or so and i welded mos about everything with it using some sort of argosheild gas and fluxless wire. I was inside a building however, one would need to stay away from the wind. I used some fluxcore wire from time to time and found it extremely messy and hard to see. With the fluxless you can see right into your puddle and direct it pretty nicely and it great for filling holes and tacking small things in place cause you can rest the stinger on the work and then press the button and weld it there and you're not blind while doing it. I tacked a lot of stainless stuff in that way too, then finished it off with 309L stick. The gas/mig was more expensive than stick for sure but cheaper than using fluxcore wire and much cleaner. I think i prefer stick just because of it's brute force sort of bonding method though and it's really easy i've never noticed a difference between 6010 and 7014 except 7014 one really needs to use positive striking to start it.| 18102|18087|2008-08-18 18:49:19|theboilerflue|Re: Mess cleaned up|They sold it to me in a 12 gallon kit . still waiting for it in the mail cost me $140 CAD with shipping hopen that is enough for a 36'. Although i'll still spray foam it as well. >. I had to get another 5 gallon kit of > the ceramic beads , one 5 gallon kit is not enough on the 26 if you want 2 > full coats everywhere exept outside bellow water line. > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18103|18062|2008-08-18 18:51:41|theboilerflue|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|I've heard that before that once you get the puddle flowing with tig it's way fast -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Doug, > Thanks for the compliment, but you know I am really not a very good welder. > I can use almost every process, Gas, Tig, Mig, Stick, Brazing, etc. but what > I am better at is setting up the welding machines, not welding! Your > problem was setting up the machine, not manipulating the torch, so that was > something I could help you with. At one point I was repairing welding > machines. I used to do two or three every week, so I had to know how to use > them so I could test them after the repairs. > > Now the talk about Tig being slow is simply not true. I had a guy teach me > to weld aluminum irrigation pipe fittings. It was taking us about 5 or six > minutes per end. This guy showed us how to Tig weld them in 50 seconds > flat! I could never get in under a minute my self. I once installed a seam > welder for making coaxial wave guide out of copper sheet. Tig welding at > 400 feet per minute! > > When I learned to Tig weld it was with a old Lincoln Idealarc 250 stick > machine with an add on hi frequency box with a valve for the gas. It had no > current control. It used to take me several minutes to heat the joint > enough to start welding aluminum. Then I realized I could work much faster > by turning the heat up to about 200 amps on a 1/8" tungsten, get the puddle > going quickly, then feed the filler wire REALLY fast to cool the puddle. So > if you have the skill to feed the filler wire quickly the rate you move > along the seam is about the same as stick welding at the same amperage, > because the heat input, and melting rate is the close to the same for most > processes. > > Filling holes with Tig is also much easier than with any other process. > Again you just have to recognize that the filler wire feed rate controls the > freeze rate of the puddle. A guy burned a big hole in an aluminum part once > and asked me if I could fill it in. He had made a real mess. I said I > would try and he reached for another helmet to watch. Before he could put > the helmet down I had the hole filled. He asked what I had done. I told > him I just demonstrated the secret, weld really fast! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 11:12 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > Gary > > > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done chewing out > > my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling me I was MIG > > welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I told him BS and > > proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" taught me. > > > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux core > > wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to compete > > with Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in the > > Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and > > Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the > > gun.? We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling the > > hull together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will do > > everything else.? > > > > So what is the right stick? > > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with gas if I > > can avoid it) > > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > > > Thanks > > Doug & Kay > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. There is > > so > > > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat > > > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the small > > parts > > > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. > > > > > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then > > > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then one > > day > > > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall apart > > after > > > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I decided > > > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 > > > > failed! > > > > > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > > > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. In > > > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. You > > > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > > > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We had some > > > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. Every > > > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after > > galvanizing. > > > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > >> somtimes, > > > >> > > > >> gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > >> > > > >> Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller and > > > >> Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build boats > > > >> is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on my > > > >> list. > > > >> > > > >> Doug J > > > >> www.submarineboat.com > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Tom Mann > > > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Hello All > > > >> > > > >> I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to > > > >> > > > >> weld and build there own boat. > > > >> > > > >> I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > >> somtimes, > > > >> > > > >> gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > >> > > > >> I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick > >> is > > > >> > > > >> the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both > > > >> have > > > >> > > > >> there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web > > > >> site > > > >> > > > >> they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what > > > >> it > > > >> > > > >> is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. > > > >> Most > > > >> > > > >> rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the > > > >> claim > > > >> > > > >> that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > > > >> whatever > > > >> > > > >> method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you > > > >> > > > >> make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > > > >> "meaning > > > >> > > > >> the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say > > > >> that > > > >> > > > >> is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > >> > > > >> And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that > > > >> > > > >> was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > >> > > > >> One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > > >> > > > >> verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking > >> about > > > >> > > > >> from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower > > > >> right > > > >> > > > >> side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions > > > >> the > > > >> > > > >> rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into > >> the > > > >> > > > >> testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > > >> > > > >> products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info > > > >> is > > > >> > > > >> availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion > >> or > > > >> > > > >> heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > >> > > > >> http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > > > >> > > > >> Hopfully this helps someone > > > >> > > > >> Tom > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 18104|18062|2008-08-18 18:57:22|theboilerflue|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|yes fluxcore spatters like crazy (especialy when the polarity is wrong) as does stainless mig, gas sheilding cuts the splatter a whole lot it's much much cleaner --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Hello Tom > > Jack Carson drew our plans has now completed a 7ft scale model. We are going up to Comox to pick it up this week and also visit > Paul Liebenberg's 65ft origami that is getting close to being ready for the water.? We'll get photos of both up on our web site when we get back.? > > We did run flux core while putting our gantry cranes together, and we really liked it. The wind did not seem to be any problem, however there is a considerable amount of splatter and I'd like to reduce that.? Is gas shielding the answer to reducing splatter?? We are building outside, but there are often days in the Summer and Fall that wind is almost non-existent and hanging a wind break along with the shade will be easy to do when needed.? If we can save 50% off the cost of by running solid wire with gas then that is what we will likely do.? Thats for the tip, I thought the cost was about the same. > > No, we would not like grinding anything out. If a weld that was applied when the angle of the plates was much greater that the final angle, then we likely gouge out the first welds with the plasma cutter. > > Thanks for your advice. > Doug Jackson > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 7:31 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Doug > > 70' origami thats a big one, where did you get the plans for that? > > You were asking about flux core wire, Have you run it before? If not I > > would say try it out and see how you like it . 232 would more than likely be > > the one to use, If I remember correctly 232 was the replacment for the 211 > > when it was classified for non strucual only. > > Last I figured solid wire with 02 gas run about 1/3 the cost of flux core, > > somthing to think about if you can deal with the wind and you do allready > > have the equipment. > > What is the right stick! man is that a touchie subject LOL! 1/4" mild > > steel, joint prep will be more criticle than rod selection if your looking > > for 100% strength but if your just talking about tacks any of them would > > work 6011 would probably be the easiest. Are you planning on grinding tacks > > out when you get that far with wire welds? > > Welding the stainless to mild steel 309/309L stick or wire is the first > > choice. > > stainless to stainless for 304 grades a 308/308L stick or wire, 316 grade > > 316/316L stick or wire. > > My $.02 and not competeing > > Tom > > > > On 8/14/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > How fortuitous of you to write this evening.? I just got done chewing out > > > my smart ass neighbor (actually a fine bloke) for telling me I was MIG > > > welding aluminum with way to much amps and wire speed. I told him BS and > > > proceeded to demonstrate what you, the "Master Welder" taught me. > > > > > > So with that track record I'd like your advice on sticks and flux core > > > wire.? Others are welcome to contribute too, but you'll have to compete with > > > Gary who is currently on a fairly tall pedestal :) > > > > > > Kay and I will start building a 70 ft origami sailing work boat in the > > > Spring.? All 1/4" mild steel.? We have a Lincoln Invertec V300 and > > > Cobramatic water cooled push-pull wire feeder with 25 ft cable to the gun.? > > > We'll likely just use stick occasionally and mainly when pulling the hull > > > together because of the easy mobility.? The wire welder will do everything > > > else.? > > > > > > So what is the right stick? > > > And what is the right flux core wire? (We don't want to mess with gas if I > > > can avoid it) > > > What about for attaching and welding the stainless? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug & Kay > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 9:02 pm > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The funny part is how everyone worries about welds on the hull. There is > > > so > > > > > > much metal where the welds are that even bad welds would hold the boat > > > > > > together with no problem. The really tough stuff to weld is the small > > > parts > > > > > > where you will only have a small weld that must take lots of stress. > > > > > > > > > > > > We use to weld 1/8" x 1" hot rolled steel straps to 1" angle iron, then > > > > > > galvanize them. We did thousands of these parts at one time. Then one day > > > > > > we discovered that perfectly beautiful looking welds would fall apart after > > > > > > galvanizing! When we found one bad one in a box of one thousand I decided > > > > > > to try breaking every one. It was real eye opener when more than 100 > > > > > > failed! > > > > > > > > > > > > What we learned was that using 0.035" Mig welding wire that everyone > > > > > > recommended we could produce strong welds, but could not guarantee it. In > > > > > > desperation we switched to 0.045" welding wire. It ran a lot hotter. You > > > > > > had to work quick, or you'd burn right through. The welds were not as > > > > > > pretty, but we never were able to break any after the change. We had some > > > > > > outside vendors weld for us. They didn't want to use 0.045" wire. Every > > > > > > time they tried using 0.035" wire we would test the parts after > > > galvanizing. > > > > > > We'd always be able to break a few, and we'd send the whole lot back! > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:52 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amen to that!? I have found lots of helpful information on the Miller and > > > > > > > Lincoln sites, but talking to people that actually use it to build boats > > > > > > > is invaluable.?? Thanks for the lead on wire and rod, that is next on my > > > > > > > list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug J > > > > > > > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Tom Mann > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:23 pm > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wanted to try to clear things up a bit for someone wanting to learn to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weld and build there own boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can emagine it gets pretty confusing listening to all the bull > > > somtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets to the point you dont know whats right or wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know how many times I have had people say to me I was told stick > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the strongest or mig, it is simply not the case there are varables,both > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there advantages and disadvantages. If you go to lincoln or esab's web > > > > > > > site > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they show all the different rods and mig wire with a discription of what > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is mainly use for and allso the aswelded test data, tensil, yeild ect. > > > > > > > Most > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rods have a comprable mig wire equal and vice versa. Anyone making the > > > > > > > claim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that one is way stronger than the other is blowing hot air . Now if > > > > > > > whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > method you do deside to use is aproved for ship or boat building and you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make good clean sound welds that are stronger than the steel itself > > > > > > > "meaning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the steel will bend and break before the weld does" how can anyone say > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not the correct way, you should use this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the old famous that way will break or crack, think about this if that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > was the case would it be approved for the job at hand? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One other thing I wanted to point out is the capabiltity of welding ie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > verticel up/down overhead ect. Below is a link to what I am talking > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from lincoln on the murex 6011C welding rods, if you look at the lower > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > > > > > > > side it has all the little pictures 2g,3g ect. they show what positions > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rod is capable of , above that click on more info botton take you into > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > testing data. It may be of interest to you on the first page click on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > products then get into the consumable section and brows around, same info > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > availabe for all stick and wires. The info here is not based on opinion > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > heresay, its from resurch development and testing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12396 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopfully this helps someone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18105|18062|2008-08-18 19:42:21|Tom Mann|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Thanks Colin I should have used the right term The bottle is labled Carbon Dioxide. Tom I'd agree with that - except change that O2 to CO2 ! > Bottle rental (in the UK) is expensive, so a lot of amateur welders > over here use 'pub gas' - although it's rumoured that some suppliers > have begun to add some nitrogen - dunno why - but hopefully it's only > a rumour. > To refill - pub bottles can either be swapped at the pub, refilled at > fire extinguisher servicing centres, or if you know someone where they > manufacture soft drinks .... All informal arrangements, of course. > > CO2 fire extinguishers themselves can be used - providing they're held > upside down - as they are fitted with a delivery tube which runs up > from the base of the bottle to expell liquid rather than gas. > > But - I still reckon stick welding takes some beating for building boats. > > Colin > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18106|18062|2008-08-18 20:24:44|Tom Mann|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Speaking of flux core the only time I was real happy with it was when I had a Miller big 20 gas welder and it was a streight DC stick welder CC only, I was wanting to get into wire feed to speed up some of the jobs I was doing. Lincoln has the LN 25 wire feeder with CC/CV switch and the NR211 wire would run in the CC mode so I bought them, That setup made some of nicest welds,very cean and hardly any splatter, impressed the heck out of me then a year or two latter I bought a SA 250 welder with the CV tap so I could run the other wires. NR 211 was declassified to non structual only,could not use it on some jobs. I never could get the same results from any of the flux cores I ran. Finally I figure out what it was costing vs gas shieled wire and I switch to gas shielded only. I havnt run flux core in about 8 years and I dont miss it . The flux core fumes made me sick after about 30 minutes running it so I had to wear a welding resperator, even outside in the heat . Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18107|18062|2008-08-19 06:22:06|sae140|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > I was wanting to take a course but our lovely governments have,over the years,knocked the more amateur oriented classes on the head and it now costs about £400 at our local tech.Nearly worth signing on the dole for > cheers > andy airey > Hi Andy That was exactly my experience too, a few years back. No more welding classes at Boston College (despite it being a farming area), with the nearest course being at Grimsby - a 120 mile round trip for an hour's welding. But there can be negatives with attending courses ... I lasted 3 sessions before walking away from a pedantic instructor. He couldn't bust my test pieces, and couldn't find significant flaws either (not easy with 6013 !), but I wasn't using the 'correct' technique (I was pulling the rod *towards* me, rather than leftwards or rightwards (forget which) as instructed - 'cause I found that the rod was 'wandering' off-course due to not being able to see properly through their crappy helmets). And anyway, I still reckon that ultimately it's the quality of the weld itself that matters, not how you achieve it. These days, with a few hundred hours of welding behind me - and a decent helmet ! - none of this remains an issue, but blokes like that can put people off welding for life. Some of the kids on that course were almost in tears because they couldn't quickly meet his exacting standards. So - I'd always recommend learning the basics of welding, *before* attending even a Stage 1 welding course leading towards professional qualifications. Courses targeted at the amateur welder seem to have completely dried-up. Colin| 18108|18062|2008-08-19 14:17:08|brentswain38|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Herreschoff in his book "The Common Sense of Yacht Design" describes the syndrome well. He describes these people as exhibitionists rather than teachers, who love to get up in front of a class and throw discouragement at them, in order to put themselves on a pedestal. If he were teaching a dancer he would first put the lead shoes of a diver on her and say "Now teach yourself". Rather than teach he would break her heart , like they do with their best material , those with common sense and a good sense of porportion. They act as if dicouragement rather than enthusiasm were the key to all learning. In BC ,where there is a huge shortage of welders and a large portion of desperately poor jobless and homeless people , it takes a year and a half to just get in to a welding course, yet they claim that the solution is to leave these people in the trashbin of society and import people to do the work, getting the advantage of their training at someone elses expense. The corporate decision makers sound like the real welfare bums. I wonder how many people who would take welding as a hobby, then go on to doing it for a living. I've known quite a few who have. All you need is a buzzbox ,a bit of scrap, and a good book on welding from the library . Many so called "professional " welders are a good source of witchraft type rumours, old wives tales and similar total bullshit. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > I was wanting to take a course but our lovely governments have,over > the years,knocked the more amateur oriented classes on the head and it > now costs about £400 at our local tech.Nearly worth signing on the > dole for > > cheers > > andy airey > > > > Hi Andy > > That was exactly my experience too, a few years back. > > No more welding classes at Boston College (despite it being a farming > area), with the nearest course being at Grimsby - a 120 mile round > trip for an hour's welding. > > But there can be negatives with attending courses ... > > I lasted 3 sessions before walking away from a pedantic instructor. > He couldn't bust my test pieces, and couldn't find significant flaws > either (not easy with 6013 !), but I wasn't using the 'correct' > technique (I was pulling the rod *towards* me, rather than leftwards > or rightwards (forget which) as instructed - 'cause I found that the > rod was 'wandering' off-course due to not being able to see properly > through their crappy helmets). And anyway, I still reckon that > ultimately it's the quality of the weld itself that matters, not how > you achieve it. > > These days, with a few hundred hours of welding behind me - and a > decent helmet ! - none of this remains an issue, but blokes like that > can put people off welding for life. Some of the kids on that course > were almost in tears because they couldn't quickly meet his exacting > standards. So - I'd always recommend learning the basics of welding, > *before* attending even a Stage 1 welding course leading towards > professional qualifications. Courses targeted at the amateur welder > seem to have completely dried-up. > > Colin > | 18109|18062|2008-08-19 14:53:10|theboilerflue|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|when i was welding the steel plates over top of the lead inside the keel i used flux core cause it's better for dirty welding. i used a respirator and i went through two sets of fiters fr the respirator. After one keel the filter was so pluged that the mask would suck into my face on every breath. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Speaking of flux core the only time I was real happy with it was when I had > a Miller big 20 gas welder and it was a streight DC stick welder CC only, I > was wanting to get into wire feed to speed up some of the jobs I was doing. > Lincoln has the LN 25 wire feeder with CC/CV switch and the NR211 wire would > run in the CC mode so I bought them, That setup made some of nicest > welds,very cean and hardly any splatter, impressed the heck out of me then a > year or two latter I bought a SA 250 welder with the CV tap so I could run > the other wires. NR 211 was declassified to non structual only,could not use > it on some jobs. I never could get the same results from any of the flux > cores I ran. Finally I figure out what it was costing vs gas shieled wire > and I switch to gas shielded only. I havnt run flux core in about 8 years > and I dont miss it . The flux core fumes made me sick after about 30 minutes > running it so I had to wear a welding resperator, even outside in the heat . > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18110|18110|2008-08-20 02:39:23|dejongralph|Bulwarks BS31|The plans say ss 2" sch 40 tube, they have a wall thickness of 3.9 mm (0,154"). I can get pipes ss 2" wt of 3.0 mm (0,118"). Are those acceptable? Would a better buy be ss 1 1/2" tube wt 3.0 mm? Which are also available. Thank you for advise Ralph| 18111|18110|2008-08-20 09:15:09|Tom Mann|Re: Bulwarks BS31|I thought the Bulwark pipes were 1" sch 40 pipe on the 31 ? Tom On 8/19/08, dejongralph wrote: > > The plans say ss 2" sch 40 tube, they have a wall thickness of 3.9 mm > (0,154"). > I can get pipes ss 2" wt of 3.0 mm (0,118"). Are those acceptable? > > Would a better buy be ss 1 1/2" tube wt 3.0 mm? Which are also > available. > > Thank you for advise > Ralph > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18112|18112|2008-08-20 10:13:20|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Message Etiquite|Scott, you sed "Posted by: "audeojude" audeojude@... audeojude Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:12 am (PDT) Guys, you are killing me with the long emails. If your replying to another message please crop the message and then reply to it. I'm getting messages with the last 4 and 5 posts repeated in the message. If I was to print out one post it would spread over 7 or 8 pages of paper with the extra messages and weird formatting. So please send out polite posts. delete any redundant former messages first then make sure the formatting doesn't have double spaces between every single line in the message. I get daily digests of this forum in mail and follow it that way. It's getting to where I almost don't want to bother wading through the insanity just to find the new posts/comments for the day. scott carle" Well hey mate, you have got to separate the wheat from the chaf. Here as anywhere else. if you choose to print all the origamibosts posts out that is your business, but take it for what it is. I know that there are a great number of politically correct people (fucking sheep!) who would not say shit if their mouth was full of it, however this may not be the right place to find them. Perhaps the nearest burocrap could help if political correctness is really what you are after. Otherwise you gotta take it as it comes. fair, foul or indiferent. I believe the difference may be that we - in general- are grotty yachties, not snotty yachties. Cheers, Shane __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/| 18113|18112|2008-08-20 11:59:14|Ben Okopnik|Re: Message Etiquite|On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 07:13:18AM -0700, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > audeojude@... wrote: > > Guys, > you are killing me with the long emails. If your replying to another > message please crop the message and then reply to it. [snip] > Well hey mate, > > you have got to separate the wheat from the chaf. Here as anywhere > else. if you choose to print all the origamibosts posts out that is > your business, but take it for what it is. > > I know that there are a great number of politically correct people > (fucking sheep!) who would not say shit if their mouth was full of it, > however this may not be the right place to find them. Perhaps the > nearest burocrap could help if political correctness is really what > you are after. > > Otherwise you gotta take it as it comes. fair, foul or indiferent. I > believe the difference may be that we - in general- are grotty > yachties, not snotty yachties. Shane - Using inflammatory terms like "political correctness" when you've simply been asked to behave in a civil fashion shows poor manners. Being a sailor is not an excuse for being a rude slob - although a rude slob might use it as an excuse. If I ever need to shove my message a mile up someone's rectum by using a sharpened iron poker, political correctness won't enter into it; I'll even fold the thing till it's all corners and heat the iron till it's cherry red. And yet, I always trim my replies. The difference is that my *default* behavior isn't to shove my messages up people's orifices - I prefer to actually communicate with them instead. That requires civil behavior. You might consider doing that next time, and reserving the unpleasant comments for when they're actually called for. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18114|18110|2008-08-20 15:23:19|brentswain38|Re: Bulwarks BS31|Yes the bulwarks on the 31 are 1 inch sch 40 pipe. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > I thought the Bulwark pipes were 1" sch 40 pipe on the 31 ? > Tom > > > On 8/19/08, dejongralph wrote: > > > > The plans say ss 2" sch 40 tube, they have a wall thickness of 3.9 mm > > (0,154"). > > I can get pipes ss 2" wt of 3.0 mm (0,118"). Are those acceptable? > > > > Would a better buy be ss 1 1/2" tube wt 3.0 mm? Which are also > > available. > > > > Thank you for advise > > Ralph > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18115|18115|2008-08-20 15:41:25|theboilerflue|Any recomendations for overcoat|Any recomedations for the final overcoat over wasser coal tar and bottom paint? non-skid?| 18116|18062|2008-08-20 22:27:25|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Ben, I live in NJ. I'll be in Ontario, California though some time in October. I used to travel to the Seattle area a lot, and actually got a chance to sail on one of Brent's 36 footers. Tig welding does take a lot more skill than MIG especially on aluminum. You need to coordinate both hands and your foot if you have a current adjust pedal. If you contaminate the tungsten by getting the wire too close or by dipping the tungsten in the puddle then you are done, until you regrind the tungsten. I've done some fairly thick aluminum casting repairs, broken light pole bases and pipe bender shoes, even with only a 250 amp welder. I set the part up on a plumbers propane lead pot furnace and heat it until solder melts as soon as you touch it to the aluminum. Then it welds just fine, if maybe a little slow. I also use the puddle cooling trick while stick welding. Say you have a big gap to fill, because your torch skills are a little less than your welding skills. Take a welding rod and pound all the flux off with a hammer. Starting welding buy pushing the rod instead of dragging. Then feed the bare rod into the weld puddle. This cools the puddle rapidly and keeps it from sagging out. You control the puddle by the rate of feed of the bare wire, instead of stopping and starting the arc. Since you weld continuously, and are feeding two wires you can fill a large gap much faster. Get good at this and you'll find you have the TIG skills! Gas welding is also good practice for TIG. My first time gas welding was when our truck mechanic was gas welding an exhaust pipe on a truck. I saw what he was doing and asked him to let me try. He was really impressed with the welding job I did, and said he didn't know I could gas weld. I told him it was my first time, but it looked TIG at slow speed! Then there is brazing. I really like brazing for repairing cast iron. Bronze has very nearly the same tensile strength as cast iron. So brazed joints are as strong as the original casting. A couple of years ago I brazed 4 lugs broken off of a 5 lug fork truck wheel. It was as good as new. A few months ago I repaired some broken parts in the gear shift mechanism on our vertical bandsaw. The secret is you must be very patient and wait for the entire casting to get very close to the brazing temperature. Then the brazing rod just flows onto the cast iron. Again the filler rod controls the puddle, feed faster to cool it, slower to heat it. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 09:31:43PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> >> When I learned to Tig weld it was with a old Lincoln Idealarc 250 stick >> machine with an add on hi frequency box with a valve for the gas. It had >> no >> current control. It used to take me several minutes to heat the joint >> enough to start welding aluminum. Then I realized I could work much >> faster >> by turning the heat up to about 200 amps on a 1/8" tungsten, get the >> puddle >> going quickly, then feed the filler wire REALLY fast to cool the puddle. >> So >> if you have the skill to feed the filler wire quickly the rate you move >> along the seam is about the same as stick welding at the same amperage, >> because the heat input, and melting rate is the close to the same for >> most >> processes. > > Gary, I would _love_ to see this some time. Man, I'm envious of your > ability. :) To quote an apropos bit of Izaak Walton from "The Compleat > Angler": > > I envy not him that eats better meat than I do, nor him that is > richer, or that wears better clothes than I do. I envy no body but > him, and him only, that catches more fish than I do. > > Similar to him, I don't envy anyone except people who are more able > than I am in an area where I want to be competent. > >> Filling holes with Tig is also much easier than with any other process. >> Again you just have to recognize that the filler wire feed rate controls >> the >> freeze rate of the puddle. A guy burned a big hole in an aluminum part >> once >> and asked me if I could fill it in. He had made a real mess. I said I >> would try and he reached for another helmet to watch. Before he could >> put >> the helmet down I had the hole filled. He asked what I had done. I told >> him I just demonstrated the secret, weld really fast! > > Didn't you once mention that you're out in California? I do make it out > there on business once in a while, and I'd be glad to stand you a number > of beers if you teach me that little technique. Again, I don't have a > TIG welder handy right now, but I'd sure be glad to have that technique > in my toolbox. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18117|18110|2008-08-21 05:06:09|Shane Duncan|Re: Bulwarks BS31|i used ss 30mm  3.8 mm wall thickness on mine with no problems   pulled the keel in on the weekend will post some pics soon   cheers shane ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:15:06 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bulwarks BS31 I thought the Bulwark pipes were 1" sch 40 pipe on the 31 ? Tom On 8/19/08, dejongralph wrote: > > The plans say ss 2" sch 40 tube, they have a wall thickness of 3.9 mm > (0,154"). > I can get pipes ss 2" wt of 3.0 mm (0,118").  Are those acceptable? > > Would a better buy be ss 1 1/2" tube wt 3.0 mm?  Which are also > available. > > Thank you for advise > Ralph > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18118|18118|2008-08-21 05:44:04|sarahfrankston|Freebies 21st August|This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the latest freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit.They post new freebies on their 'home page', twice a week, so check out the link below every Monday and Thursday for the latest free-stuff! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/ When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 18119|18062|2008-08-21 19:38:25|Carl Volkwein|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Thanks Gary,       I'll try that, all tough I probably won't try TIG any time soon carlvolkwein@... --- On Wed, 8/20/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 10:27 PM Ben, I live in NJ. I'll be in Ontario, California though some time in October. I used to travel to the Seattle area a lot, and actually got a chance to sail on one of Brent's 36 footers. Tig welding does take a lot more skill than MIG especially on aluminum. You need to coordinate both hands and your foot if you have a current adjust pedal. If you contaminate the tungsten by getting the wire too close or by dipping the tungsten in the puddle then you are done, until you regrind the tungsten. I've done some fairly thick aluminum casting repairs, broken light pole bases and pipe bender shoes, even with only a 250 amp welder. I set the part up on a plumbers propane lead pot furnace and heat it until solder melts as soon as you touch it to the aluminum. Then it welds just fine, if maybe a little slow. I also use the puddle cooling trick while stick welding. Say you have a big gap to fill, because your torch skills are a little less than your welding skills. Take a welding rod and pound all the flux off with a hammer. Starting welding buy pushing the rod instead of dragging. Then feed the bare rod into the weld puddle. This cools the puddle rapidly and keeps it from sagging out. You control the puddle by the rate of feed of the bare wire, instead of stopping and starting the arc. Since you weld continuously, and are feeding two wires you can fill a large gap much faster. Get good at this and you'll find you have the TIG skills! Gas welding is also good practice for TIG. My first time gas welding was when our truck mechanic was gas welding an exhaust pipe on a truck. I saw what he was doing and asked him to let me try. He was really impressed with the welding job I did, and said he didn't know I could gas weld. I told him it was my first time, but it looked TIG at slow speed! Then there is brazing. I really like brazing for repairing cast iron. Bronze has very nearly the same tensile strength as cast iron. So brazed joints are as strong as the original casting. A couple of years ago I brazed 4 lugs broken off of a 5 lug fork truck wheel. It was as good as new. A few months ago I repaired some broken parts in the gear shift mechanism on our vertical bandsaw. The secret is you must be very patient and wait for the entire casting to get very close to the brazing temperature. Then the brazing rod just flows onto the cast iron. Again the filler rod controls the puddle, feed faster to cool it, slower to heat it. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 09:31:43PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> >> When I learned to Tig weld it was with a old Lincoln Idealarc 250 stick >> machine with an add on hi frequency box with a valve for the gas. It had >> no >> current control. It used to take me several minutes to heat the joint >> enough to start welding aluminum. Then I realized I could work much >> faster >> by turning the heat up to about 200 amps on a 1/8" tungsten, get the >> puddle >> going quickly, then feed the filler wire REALLY fast to cool the puddle. >> So >> if you have the skill to feed the filler wire quickly the rate you move >> along the seam is about the same as stick welding at the same amperage, >> because the heat input, and melting rate is the close to the same for >> most >> processes. > > Gary, I would _love_ to see this some time. Man, I'm envious of your > ability. :) To quote an apropos bit of Izaak Walton from "The Compleat > Angler": > > I envy not him that eats better meat than I do, nor him that is > richer, or that wears better clothes than I do. I envy no body but > him, and him only, that catches more fish than I do. > > Similar to him, I don't envy anyone except people who are more able > than I am in an area where I want to be competent. > >> Filling holes with Tig is also much easier than with any other process. >> Again you just have to recognize that the filler wire feed rate controls >> the >> freeze rate of the puddle. A guy burned a big hole in an aluminum part >> once >> and asked me if I could fill it in. He had made a real mess. I said I >> would try and he reached for another helmet to watch. Before he could >> put >> the helmet down I had the hole filled. He asked what I had done. I told >> him I just demonstrated the secret, weld really fast! > > Didn't you once mention that you're out in California? I do make it out > there on business once in a while, and I'd be glad to stand you a number > of beers if you teach me that little technique. Again, I don't have a > TIG welder handy right now, but I'd sure be glad to have that technique > in my toolbox. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18120|18110|2008-08-22 01:12:46|dejongralph|Re: Bulwarks BS31|Okey thanks, I do not know how 2 inch got in to my head. Greetings Ralph --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes the bulwarks on the 31 are 1 inch sch 40 pipe. > Brent > > | 18121|18062|2008-08-22 11:03:42|Aaron Williams|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Gary   Have you ever tried mig hardwire on cast iron? --- On Wed, 8/20/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 6:27 PM Ben, I live in NJ. I'll be in Ontario, California though some time in October. I used to travel to the Seattle area a lot, and actually got a chance to sail on one of Brent's 36 footers. Tig welding does take a lot more skill tha puddle then you are done, until you regrind the tungsten. I've done some fairly thick aluminum casting repairs, broken light pole bases and pipe bender shoes, even with only a 250 amp welder. I set the part up on a plumbers propane lead pot furnace and heat it until solder melts as soon as you touch it to the aluminum. Then it welds just fine, if maybe a little slow. I also use the puddle cooling trick while stick welding. Say you have a big gap to fill, because your torch skills are a little less than your welding skills. Take a welding rod and pound all the flux off with a hammer. Starting welding buy pushing the rod instead of dragging. Then feed the bare rod into the weld puddle. This cools the puddle rapidly and keeps it from sagging out. You control the puddle by the rate of feed of the bare wire, instead of stopping and starting the arc. Since you weld continuously, and are feeding two wires you can fill a large gap much faster. Get good at this and you'll find you have the TIG skills! Gas welding is also good practice for TIG. My first time gas welding was when our truck mechanic was gas welding an exhaust pipe on a truck. I saw what he was doing and asked him to let me try. He was really impressed with the welding job I did, and said he didn't know I could gas weld. I told him it was my first time, but it looked TIG at slow speed! Then there is brazing. I really like brazing for repairing cast iron. Bronze has very nearly the same tensile strength as cast iron. So brazed joints are as strong as the original casting. A couple of years ago I brazed 4 lugs broken off of a 5 lug fork truck wheel. It was as good as new. A few months ago I repaired some broken parts in the gear shift mechanism on our vertical bandsaw. The secret is you must be very patient and wait for the entire casting to get very close to the brazing temperature. Then the brazing rod just flows onto the cast iron. Again the filler rod controls the puddle, feed faster to cool it, slower to heat it. Gary H. Lucas Recent Activity  8 New MembersVisit Your Group Health Zone Look your best! Groups to help you look & feel great. Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18122|18115|2008-08-22 14:29:21|brentswain38|Re: Any recomendations for overcoat|International Epoxycop is a hard epoxy based bottom paint 25% copper that you can scrub anytime without washing it of. You can put whatever you want over it, when you decide to go south. West Marine in the US has an epoxy bottom paint that is 75% copper , that should work wellll over it for tropical conditions. Epoxycop is cheap too, $75 per gallon,and sticks like shit to a blanket over fresh epoxy. I use Home Hardward fishboat paint for decks and overcoats. Its under $20 per gallon. Polyurethane is harder, but harder to overcoat. It gets easier to paint the decks thatn to clean them sometimes. Put your overcoat on while the epoxy is still wet, or it wont stick. Epoxy tar will bleed thru the first coat, then leave the first coat for a week or two to harden. Then there will be no more bleed thru for subsequent coats. For the first overcoat all you want is the good bond Have you started painting yet? Brent. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Any recomedations for the final overcoat over wasser coal tar and > bottom paint? non-skid? > | 18123|18062|2008-08-22 21:57:22|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|No I haven't, and I can't see how it would work. I doubt that it would wet into the cast iron very well. I've seen nickel welding rods used for welding cast iron, but you have to peen it for stress relief and the deposits are very hard. A weld is strongest when it is the same tensile strength as the base material. A weld that is stronger that the base material stretches less under load, and puts more stress in the joint, so it cracks. As I said before, bronze is very close in tensile to cast so it takes large stresses very well without breaking the joint. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore Gary Have you ever tried mig hardwire on cast iron? --- On Wed, 8/20/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 6:27 PM Ben, I live in NJ. I'll be in Ontario, California though some time in October. I used to travel to the Seattle area a lot, and actually got a chance to sail on one of Brent's 36 footers. Tig welding does take a lot more skill tha puddle then you are done, until you regrind the tungsten. I've done some fairly thick aluminum casting repairs, broken light pole bases and pipe bender shoes, even with only a 250 amp welder. I set the part up on a plumbers propane lead pot furnace and heat it until solder melts as soon as you touch it to the aluminum. Then it welds just fine, if maybe a little slow. I also use the puddle cooling trick while stick welding. Say you have a big gap to fill, because your torch skills are a little less than your welding skills. Take a welding rod and pound all the flux off with a hammer. Starting welding buy pushing the rod instead of dragging. Then feed the bare rod into the weld puddle. This cools the puddle rapidly and keeps it from sagging out. You control the puddle by the rate of feed of the bare wire, instead of stopping and starting the arc. Since you weld continuously, and are feeding two wires you can fill a large gap much faster. Get good at this and you'll find you have the TIG skills! Gas welding is also good practice for TIG. My first time gas welding was when our truck mechanic was gas welding an exhaust pipe on a truck. I saw what he was doing and asked him to let me try. He was really impressed with the welding job I did, and said he didn't know I could gas weld. I told him it was my first time, but it looked TIG at slow speed! Then there is brazing. I really like brazing for repairing cast iron. Bronze has very nearly the same tensile strength as cast iron. So brazed joints are as strong as the original casting. A couple of years ago I brazed 4 lugs broken off of a 5 lug fork truck wheel. It was as good as new. A few months ago I repaired some broken parts in the gear shift mechanism on our vertical bandsaw. The secret is you must be very patient and wait for the entire casting to get very close to the brazing temperature. Then the brazing rod just flows onto the cast iron. Again the filler rod controls the puddle, feed faster to cool it, slower to heat it. Gary H. Lucas Recent Activity 8 New MembersVisit Your Group Health Zone Look your best! Groups to help you look & feel great. Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18124|18062|2008-08-22 22:21:09|Aaron Williams|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Try it sometime was all I was told. So about 3 weeks ago I had a chance to weld an ear back on a bearing cap, the weld was about 2" long and 3/8" thick I double beveled the ear the pre-heated to about 300 F. Things got a little smokey. I made a small pass on each side peened it and then welded some more. 3 passes on each side then covered it up with floor dry so it would cool down slow. Floor dry is great that little rascal was still to hot for bare hands an hour later. I smacked that thing on the edge of my welding table and I am still suprised it did not break. I still have my doubts. But the guy from down the street has not brought it back yet. I told him I was going to experment and if it did break I would fix it by the book next time,Although I just learned on the job from someone else.   Aaron --- On Fri, 8/22/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 5:57 PM No I haven't, and I can't see how it would work. I doubt that it would wet into the cast iron very well. I've seen nickel welding rods used for welding cast iron, but you have to peen it for stress relief and the deposits are very hard. A weld is strongest when it is the same tensile strength as the base material. A weld that is stronger that the base material stretches less under load, and puts more stress in the joint, so it cracks. As I said before, bronze is very close in tensile to cast so it takes large stresses very well without breaking the joint. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore Gary Have you ever tried mig hardwire on cast iron? --- On Wed, 8/20/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 6:27 PM Ben, I live in NJ. I'll be in Ontario, California though some time in October. I used to travel to the Seattle area a lot, and actually got a chance to sail on one of Brent's 36 footers. Tig welding does take a lot more skill tha puddle then you are done, until you regrind the tungsten. I've done some fairly thick aluminum casting repairs, broken light pole bases and pipe bender shoes, even with only a 250 amp welder. I set the part up on a plumbers propane lead pot furnace and heat it until solder melts as soon as you touch it to the aluminum. Then it welds just fine, if maybe a little slow. I also use the puddle cooling trick while stick welding. Say you have a big gap to fill, because your torch skills are a little less than your welding skills. Take a welding rod and pound all the flux off with a hammer. Starting welding buy pushing the rod instead of dragging. Then feed the bare rod into the weld puddle. This cools the puddle rapidly and keeps it from sagging out. You control the puddle by the rate of feed of the bare wire, instead of stopping and starting the arc. Since you weld continuously, and are feeding two wires you can fill a large gap much faster. Get good at this and you'll find you have the TIG skills! Gas welding is also good practice for TIG. My first time gas welding was when our truck mechanic was gas welding an exhaust pipe on a truck. I saw what he was doing and asked him to let me try. He was really impressed with the welding job I did, and said he didn't know I could gas weld. I told him it was my first time, but it looked TIG at slow speed! Then there is brazing. I really like brazing for repairing cast iron. Bronze has very nearly the same tensile strength as cast iron. So brazed joints are as strong as the original casting. A couple of years ago I brazed 4 lugs broken off of a 5 lug fork truck wheel. It was as good as new. A few months ago I repaired some broken parts in the gear shift mechanism on our vertical bandsaw. The secret is you must be very patient and wait for the entire casting to get very close to the brazing temperature. Then the brazing rod just flows onto the cast iron. Again the filler rod controls the puddle, feed faster to cool it, slower to heat it. Gary H. Lucas Recent Activity 8 New MembersVisit Your Group Health Zone Look your best! Groups to help you look & feel great. Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18125|18062|2008-08-22 22:30:39|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Aaron, That reminds me of the time I tried Tig welding a broken VW block. I welded it using the 7074 aluminum wire that I had. I was standing back admiring the beautiful weld bead I had produced when we heard a little Ping! The next thing you know the weld bead, all in one piece, fell on the floor! The guy wanted me to try again. I had him bring me a piece of another VW block. I sliced it in thin strips on the bandsaw. It was little tougher welding, and wasn't as pretty, but this time it stayed together and he had no problems with it. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore Try it sometime was all I was told. So about 3 weeks ago I had a chance to weld an ear back on a bearing cap, the weld was about 2" long and 3/8" thick I double beveled the ear the pre-heated to about 300 F. Things got a little smokey. I made a small pass on each side peened it and then welded some more. 3 passes on each side then covered it up with floor dry so it would cool down slow. Floor dry is great that little rascal was still to hot for bare hands an hour later. I smacked that thing on the edge of my welding table and I am still suprised it did not break. I still have my doubts. But the guy from down the street has not brought it back yet. I told him I was going to experment and if it did break I would fix it by the book next time,Although I just learned on the job from someone else. Aaron --- On Fri, 8/22/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 5:57 PM No I haven't, and I can't see how it would work. I doubt that it would wet into the cast iron very well. I've seen nickel welding rods used for welding cast iron, but you have to peen it for stress relief and the deposits are very hard. A weld is strongest when it is the same tensile strength as the base material. A weld that is stronger that the base material stretches less under load, and puts more stress in the joint, so it cracks. As I said before, bronze is very close in tensile to cast so it takes large stresses very well without breaking the joint. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore Gary Have you ever tried mig hardwire on cast iron? --- On Wed, 8/20/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 6:27 PM Ben, I live in NJ. I'll be in Ontario, California though some time in October. I used to travel to the Seattle area a lot, and actually got a chance to sail on one of Brent's 36 footers. Tig welding does take a lot more skill tha puddle then you are done, until you regrind the tungsten. I've done some fairly thick aluminum casting repairs, broken light pole bases and pipe bender shoes, even with only a 250 amp welder. I set the part up on a plumbers propane lead pot furnace and heat it until solder melts as soon as you touch it to the aluminum. Then it welds just fine, if maybe a little slow. I also use the puddle cooling trick while stick welding. Say you have a big gap to fill, because your torch skills are a little less than your welding skills. Take a welding rod and pound all the flux off with a hammer. Starting welding buy pushing the rod instead of dragging. Then feed the bare rod into the weld puddle. This cools the puddle rapidly and keeps it from sagging out. You control the puddle by the rate of feed of the bare wire, instead of stopping and starting the arc. Since you weld continuously, and are feeding two wires you can fill a large gap much faster. Get good at this and you'll find you have the TIG skills! Gas welding is also good practice for TIG. My first time gas welding was when our truck mechanic was gas welding an exhaust pipe on a truck. I saw what he was doing and asked him to let me try. He was really impressed with the welding job I did, and said he didn't know I could gas weld. I told him it was my first time, but it looked TIG at slow speed! Then there is brazing. I really like brazing for repairing cast iron. Bronze has very nearly the same tensile strength as cast iron. So brazed joints are as strong as the original casting. A couple of years ago I brazed 4 lugs broken off of a 5 lug fork truck wheel. It was as good as new. A few months ago I repaired some broken parts in the gear shift mechanism on our vertical bandsaw. The secret is you must be very patient and wait for the entire casting to get very close to the brazing temperature. Then the brazing rod just flows onto the cast iron. Again the filler rod controls the puddle, feed faster to cool it, slower to heat it. Gary H. Lucas Recent Activity 8 New MembersVisit Your Group Health Zone Look your best! Groups to help you look & feel great. Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18126|18062|2008-08-22 22:37:46|Tom Mann|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Another wives tale that amazes me. When I mention welding down hill or verticle down, some are stlill beleaving you cant do it because they were told or tought that you cant do it . Well it can be done and is done. Comes in very handy when welding lighter gage material. Try doing a verticle up but weld on 16 gage with 1/8" 6011 then do verticle down with same and see for yourself. You can indeed certify for all position welding. One of the things that come to mind was back when dear oll mike was thinking my welding procedures needed changin, We were descussing stem bars and I wasnt sure if I was going to weld one in or not, some one asked me if I was going to put one in how would I weld it in and I replied I would weld it down hand or veticle down, That was when mike jumped in and said somthing like shurly I wasnnt advocating to weld verticle down, anyway that one boiled my blood because if he was indeed a pro welder and welding inspector he would have known it was an approved method and he should have known why I would weld it that way. I kinda clamed up and figured what was the point when I should have come back and explained. I am going to try to explain it now because a weld in this situation can be improved by welding down hill. The hull of the 26 is only 10 gage and in the bow section is a very tight V to begin with, then when you add the stem bar that V is cut in half "even tighter", To weld verticle up in that tight of a V you will get some undercutting on the sides of weld and especialy if the one behind the stick is less than par with his welding skills, the weld more than likly will look pretty lumpy and it would be dam near impossable to grind it smooth. Weld it down hand "verticle down " its a lot easier to eliminate the under cutting and the weld will be a lot flatter . Welding verticle down with 6011 is not hard to learn, just takes a little practice . under cutting-- when welding cuts a grove in the metal along side the weld caused from incorrect rod angle and or to much heat "amps" Not a good thing I did end up welding in a stem bar, used 3/8" x 1-1/2" flat strip . Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18127|18062|2008-08-22 23:20:14|Tom Mann|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Aaron I use to know a few guys around here the worked in the ship yards back in the war and they told me that they use to weld big cast iron fittings and such down to the steel decks with there regular welding rods,all they did was heat the heck out of it and weld er down, I tried it on some big cast iron gate valves welded to steel pipe and ill be danged it did work. I done it also on cast to cast sometimes it holds sometimes it dont, had about the same luck with the nickle rod. not all cast is created equal. I was told that stainless mig wire also does the trick but havnt tried it yet. Best I have seen so far is the bronze like Gary suggest. Tom On 8/22/08, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Try it sometime was all I was told. So about 3 weeks ago I had a chance to > weld an ear back on a bearing cap, the weld was about 2" long and 3/8" thick > I double beveled the ear the pre-heated to about 300 F. Things got a little > smokey. I made a small pass on each side peened it and then welded some > more. 3 passes on each side then covered it up with floor dry so it would > cool down slow. Floor dry is great that little rascal was still to hot for > bare hands an hour later. I smacked that thing on the edge of my welding > table and I am still suprised it did not break. I still have my doubts. But > the guy from down the street has not brought it back yet. I told him I was > going to experment and if it did break I would fix it by the book next > time,Although I just learned on the job from someone else. > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18128|18062|2008-08-23 00:03:01|Aaron Williams|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|I worked with a fellow that welded up a large aluminum heater box once and after he was all done that kind of happened to. Funny thing about 316L SS.... LOL   --- On Fri, 8/22/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 6:30 PM Aaron, That reminds me of the time I tried Tig welding a broken VW block. I welded it using the 7074 aluminum wire that I had. I was standing back admiring the beautiful weld bead I had produced when we heard a little Ping! The next thing you know the weld bead, all in one piece, fell on the floor! The guy wanted me to try again. I had him bring me a piece of another VW block. I sliced it in thin strips on the bandsaw. It was little tougher welding, and wasn't as pretty, but this time it stayed together and he had no problems with it. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore Try it sometime was all I was told. So about 3 weeks ago I had a chance to weld an ear back on a bearing cap, the weld was about 2" long and 3/8" thick I double beveled the ear the pre-heated to about 300 F. Things got a little smokey. I made a small pass on each side peened it and then welded some more. 3 passes on each side then covered it up with floor dry so it would cool down slow. Floor dry is great that little rascal was still to hot for bare hands an hour later. I smacked that thing on the edge of my welding table and I am still suprised it did not break. I still have my doubts. But the guy from down the street has not brought it back yet. I told him I was going to experment and if it did break I would fix it by the book next time,Although I just learned on the job from someone else. Aaron --- On Fri, 8/22/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 5:57 PM No I haven't, and I can't see how it would work. I doubt that it would wet into the cast iron very well. I've seen nickel welding rods used for welding cast iron, but you have to peen it for stress relief and the deposits are very hard. A weld is strongest when it is the same tensile strength as the base material. A weld that is stronger that the base material stretches less under load, and puts more stress in the joint, so it cracks. As I said before, bronze is very close in tensile to cast so it takes large stresses very well without breaking the joint. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore Gary Have you ever tried mig hardwire on cast iron? --- On Wed, 8/20/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 6:27 PM Ben, I live in NJ. I'll be in Ontario, California though some time in October. I used to travel to the Seattle area a lot, and actually got a chance to sail on one of Brent's 36 footers. Tig welding does take a lot more skill tha puddle then you are done, until you regrind the tungsten. I've done some fairly thick aluminum casting repairs, broken light pole bases and pipe bender shoes, even with only a 250 amp welder. I set the part up on a plumbers propane lead pot furnace and heat it until solder melts as soon as you touch it to the aluminum. Then it welds just fine, if maybe a little slow. I also use the puddle cooling trick while stick welding. Say you have a big gap to fill, because your torch skills are a little less than your welding skills. Take a welding rod and pound all the flux off with a hammer. Starting welding buy pushing the rod instead of dragging. Then feed the bare rod into the weld puddle. This cools the puddle rapidly and keeps it from sagging out. You control the puddle by the rate of feed of the bare wire, instead of stopping and starting the arc. Since you weld continuously, and are feeding two wires you can fill a large gap much faster. Get good at this and you'll find you have the TIG skills! Gas welding is also good practice for TIG. My first time gas welding was when our truck mechanic was gas welding an exhaust pipe on a truck. I saw what he was doing and asked him to let me try. He was really impressed with the welding job I did, and said he didn't know I could gas weld. I told him it was my first time, but it looked TIG at slow speed! Then there is brazing. I really like brazing for repairing cast iron. Bronze has very nearly the same tensile strength as cast iron. So brazed joints are as strong as the original casting. A couple of years ago I brazed 4 lugs broken off of a 5 lug fork truck wheel. It was as good as new. A few months ago I repaired some broken parts in the gear shift mechanism on our vertical bandsaw. The secret is you must be very patient and wait for the entire casting to get very close to the brazing temperature. Then the brazing rod just flows onto the cast iron. Again the filler rod controls the puddle, feed faster to cool it, slower to heat it. Gary H. Lucas Recent Activity 8 New MembersVisit Your Group Health Zone Look your best! Groups to help you look & feel great. Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18129|18115|2008-08-23 01:02:14|theboilerflue|Re: Any recomendations for overcoat|no i haven't yet started painting i ordered some international paint that they recommended for over the wasser stuff it fetched about 80 bucks a gallon. Do you mean home hardware fishboat paint? from home hardware? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > International Epoxycop is a hard epoxy based bottom paint 25% copper > that you can scrub anytime without washing it of. You can put whatever > you want over it, when you decide to go south. West Marine in the US > has an epoxy bottom paint that is 75% copper , that should work wellll > over it for tropical conditions. Epoxycop is cheap too, $75 per > gallon,and sticks like shit to a blanket over fresh epoxy. > I use Home Hardward fishboat paint for decks and overcoats. Its under > $20 per gallon. Polyurethane is harder, but harder to overcoat. It gets > easier to paint the decks thatn to clean them sometimes. Put your > overcoat on while the epoxy is still wet, or it wont stick. > Epoxy tar will bleed thru the first coat, then leave the first coat > for a week or two to harden. Then there will be no more bleed thru for > subsequent coats. For the first overcoat all you want is the good bond > Have you started painting yet? > Brent. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Any recomedations for the final overcoat over wasser coal tar and > > bottom paint? non-skid? > > > | 18130|18087|2008-08-23 10:00:32|Tom Mann|Re: Mess cleaned up|I would think the 12 gallon kit should be plenty for the 36, the way its comming out on the 26 looks like 6 or 7 gallons worth will do it. I bought extra to use on truck tool box, going to build one big enough for the wire feed and hopefully it does the trick and the wire and liner wont rust as fast. Tom On 8/18/08, theboilerflue wrote: > > They sold it to me in a 12 gallon kit . still waiting for it in the > mail cost me $140 CAD with shipping hopen that is enough for a 36'. > Although i'll still spray foam it as well. > > >. I had to get another 5 gallon kit of > > the ceramic beads , one 5 gallon kit is not enough on the 26 if you > want 2 > > full coats everywhere exept outside bellow water line. > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18131|18131|2008-08-23 13:43:44|Carl Anderson|keeping floorboards secure|I'm wondering what folks are doing to secure their floor hatch boards in place. Looks like there are many different ways to go about this. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com| 18132|18115|2008-08-23 14:48:19|brentswain38|Re: Any recomendations for overcoat|Yes--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > no i haven't yet started painting i ordered some international paint > that they recommended for over the wasser stuff it fetched about 80 > bucks a gallon. Do you mean home hardware fishboat paint? from home > hardware? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > International Epoxycop is a hard epoxy based bottom paint 25% copper > > that you can scrub anytime without washing it of. You can put whatever > > you want over it, when you decide to go south. West Marine in the US > > has an epoxy bottom paint that is 75% copper , that should work wellll > > over it for tropical conditions. Epoxycop is cheap too, $75 per > > gallon,and sticks like shit to a blanket over fresh epoxy. > > I use Home Hardward fishboat paint for decks and overcoats. Its under > > $20 per gallon. Polyurethane is harder, but harder to overcoat. It gets > > easier to paint the decks thatn to clean them sometimes. Put your > > overcoat on while the epoxy is still wet, or it wont stick. > > Epoxy tar will bleed thru the first coat, then leave the first coat > > for a week or two to harden. Then there will be no more bleed thru for > > subsequent coats. For the first overcoat all you want is the good bond > > Have you started painting yet? > > Brent. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > Any recomedations for the final overcoat over wasser coal tar and > > > bottom paint? non-skid? > > > > > > | 18133|18131|2008-08-23 14:53:10|Tom Mann|Re: keeping floorboards secure|Hello Carl I am figuring just putting hinges on one side and no latch but Im not going to use the area under for storage Tom On 8/23/08, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I'm wondering what folks are doing to secure their floor hatch boards in > place. > > Looks like there are many different ways to go about this. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18134|18115|2008-08-23 14:55:31|brentswain38|Re: Any recomendations for overcoat|I've had good luck with Home Hardware fishboat paint over both wasser and epoxy tar as long as the tar was wet when I put the first coat of fishboat paint on. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > wrote: > > > > no i haven't yet started painting i ordered some international paint > > that they recommended for over the wasser stuff it fetched about 80 > > bucks a gallon. Do you mean home hardware fishboat paint? from home > > hardware? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > International Epoxycop is a hard epoxy based bottom paint 25% > copper > > > that you can scrub anytime without washing it of. You can put > whatever > > > you want over it, when you decide to go south. West Marine in the > US > > > has an epoxy bottom paint that is 75% copper , that should work > wellll > > > over it for tropical conditions. Epoxycop is cheap too, $75 per > > > gallon,and sticks like shit to a blanket over fresh epoxy. > > > I use Home Hardward fishboat paint for decks and overcoats. Its > under > > > $20 per gallon. Polyurethane is harder, but harder to overcoat. > It gets > > > easier to paint the decks thatn to clean them sometimes. Put your > > > overcoat on while the epoxy is still wet, or it wont stick. > > > Epoxy tar will bleed thru the first coat, then leave the first > coat > > > for a week or two to harden. Then there will be no more bleed > thru for > > > subsequent coats. For the first overcoat all you want is the good > bond > > > Have you started painting yet? > > > Brent. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Any recomedations for the final overcoat over wasser coal tar > and > > > > bottom paint? non-skid? > > > > > > > > > > | 18135|18131|2008-08-23 18:59:39|Paul Wilson|Re: keeping floorboards secure|I just screw them down with SS woodscrews. I can take all the screws out with a bit in a power screw driver in less than a minute so it's a pretty quick, simple system. If I am at anchor and not sailing anywhere, I leave the screws out for quick access. Cheers, Paul I'm wondering what folks are doing to secure their floor hatch boards in place. Looks like there are many different ways to go about this. Carl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18136|18131|2008-08-23 23:26:46|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]RE: [origamiboats] keeping floorboards secure|Hi, mine are screwed down with SS machine screws into steel framing under the floor. It is very quick to screw them out for dock time, but it is also quick to screw them in when out sailing if the conditions may make it necessary. Still, if I were to design my own system, I would find some sort of bayonet fastener that would require 1/4 or a 1/2 turn and self-lock. I am sure there is something like that around in either SS or may be even nylon or glassfiber. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 7:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]RE: [origamiboats] keeping floorboards secure I just screw them down with SS woodscrews. I can take all the screws out with a bit in a power screw driver in less than a minute so it's a pretty quick, simple system. If I am at anchor and not sailing anywhere, I leave the screws out for quick access. Cheers, Paul I'm wondering what folks are doing to secure their floor hatch boards in place. Looks like there are many different ways to go about this. Carl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.7/1628 - Release Date: 8/22/2008 6:32 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.7/1628 - Release Date: 8/22/2008 6:32 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18137|18062|2008-08-24 17:56:55|theboilerflue|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|I have found the same thing welding the deck and cabin plate. Any welds uphill would just produce either holes blown through or if i moved faster to keep the heat down would look like poured candle wa. downhill was the only way to do it. However i did find that the slag pool would build and snuff out the rod sometimes maybe the angle wasn't right. Well it can be done and is done. Comes > in very handy when welding lighter gage material. Try doing a verticle up > but weld on 16 gage with 1/8" 6011 then do verticle down with same and see| 18138|18138|2008-08-24 18:00:37|prairiemaidca|New pic. Prairie Maid|Hi All; Especially Brent. I've posted a couple of pics of Prairie Maid in the photos section if anyone is interested in yet another home made Swain... Martin...| 18139|18062|2008-08-24 22:58:43|Tom Mann|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|When I am doing a verticle down or down hill I keep the rod at about the same angle as verticle up, about 5 degree drag angle to the work at about 75-85 amps on 12 gage with 1/8" rods. usualy if the weld or slag is running down past the rod the amps are to high and or moving to slow. The amps vary a bit from machine to machine and AC or DC. Tom On 8/24/08, theboilerflue wrote: > > I have found the same thing welding the deck and cabin plate. Any > welds uphill would just produce either holes blown through or if i > moved faster to keep the heat down would look like poured candle wa. > downhill was the only way to do it. However i did find that the slag > pool would build and snuff out the rod sometimes maybe the angle > wasn't right. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18140|18140|2008-08-25 04:15:08|mark.davies47|Freebies 25th August|This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the LATEST freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit.They post new freebies on their 'home page', twice a week, so check out the link below every Monday and Thursday for the latest free-stuff! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/ When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 18141|18138|2008-08-25 08:34:49|Ray|Re: New pic. Prairie Maid|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi All; Especially Brent. I've posted a couple of pics of Prairie > Maid in the photos section if anyone is interested in yet another home > made Swain... Martin... > She's a fine looking vessel - y'all should be proud of her! When are you getting her keel wet?| 18142|18062|2008-08-26 01:45:37|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Thanks, and much obliged. --Doug [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18143|18143|2008-08-26 08:51:29|cal_sailing44|Brent Swain Origami boats in Australia|Hi All, is there any Brent Swain boats in OZ, I am looking to build one in the future and after emailing Brent he mentioned that he had sent some plans Down Under. So if any one is building or has built or is sailing one (Misty Blue was sold to someone in Morton Bay QLD) can you contact me through here or email me at cal_d_44@hotmail. Chers Cal| 18144|18144|2008-08-26 09:00:31|emelda_ebin|Popular Scholarship Programs|There are several scholarship programs that help us go for higher studies leaving behind all the financial worries. The website http://www.scholarshiponnet.com lists out all the popular scholarship programs available globally and guides us through the application process to fulfill the dream of furthering our academic interests. Visit the website to find out the scholarship program that will suit you the best: http://www.scholarshiponnet.com| 18145|18062|2008-08-26 14:03:51|brentswain38|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Downhand is great for lighter material. For the trailing edge of the skeg, about an inch of downhand every few inces, letting eack one cool befor eputting i one next to it is the only way to avoid blowing thru 16 guage with stick. Downhill with 7024 sometimes allows the slag to run ahead of the wels making for huge slag holes in the weld. However , when you compare breaking heavier plate welds done uphand with those done downhand , the difference in strength is huge. Downhand breaks easily, uphand doesn't. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I have found the same thing welding the deck and cabin plate. Any > welds uphill would just produce either holes blown through or if i > moved faster to keep the heat down would look like poured candle wa. > downhill was the only way to do it. However i did find that the slag > pool would build and snuff out the rod sometimes maybe the angle > wasn't right. > > Well it can be done and is done. Comes > > in very handy when welding lighter gage material. Try doing a > verticle up > > but weld on 16 gage with 1/8" 6011 then do verticle down with same > and see > | 18146|18143|2008-08-26 15:53:43|Paul Wilson|Re: Brent Swain Origami boats in Australia|I am not exactly in OZ but is New Zealand close enough? I am in New Plymouth, west side of the North Island. I have a BS 36. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of cal_sailing44 Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:51 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain Origami boats in Australia Hi All, is there any Brent Swain boats in OZ, I am looking to build one in the future and after emailing Brent he mentioned that he had sent some plans Down Under. So if any one is building or has built or is sailing one (Misty Blue was sold to someone in Morton Bay QLD) can you contact me through here or email me at cal_d_44@hotmail. Chers Cal No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.9/1635 - Release Date: 8/26/2008 7:29 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18147|18143|2008-08-26 22:20:07|Shane Duncan|Re: Brent Swain Origami boats in Australia|Cal   I've taken a year off work and am half way through building a BS31 hard work but having a Ton of fun.   I'm a Kiwi but have been living in Australia now for 8 years i'm building in a small fishing Town called Dongera 4 hours north of Perth i'm more than happy to have a chat with your Re steel, boats, engines, etc etc etc Ph  08 99272236    cheers shane ----- Original Message ---- From: cal_sailing44 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:51:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain Origami boats in Australia Hi All,       is there any Brent Swain boats in OZ, I am looking to build one in the future and after emailing Brent he mentioned that he had sent some plans Down Under. So if any one is building or has built or is sailing one (Misty Blue was sold to someone in Morton Bay QLD) can you contact me through here or email me at cal_d_44@hotmail. Chers Cal ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18148|18148|2008-08-26 22:44:27|gundoc7519|Lister slow speed engines???|I found a place that has slow speed Listers with two large flywheels. The 24 hp at 1000rpm engine is $3,500. Anyone know anything about these engines and if they would be suitable for marine use. They are four cycle cold starting diesels. Thanks for the input. Don| 18149|18148|2008-08-27 02:08:58|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Lister slow speed engines???|Hi, Lister engines are well thought of on narrowboats on the canal system in the UK. I have also worked on ones fitted to motor lifeboats on cargo ships, over forty years ago. Spares in the UK are available and most can be shipped world wide. Search Lister on Google, some of the older parts are being reproduced in Indian, the finish being good but may require the odd touch of fettling. On a lighter note one it would appear that a tin of Brasso, metal polish, is essential to make them sparkle most engines being on view in narrowboats. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18150|18062|2008-08-27 03:09:09|Wally Paine|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|I once saw a forty foot steel motor fishing boat being built by an general engineering firm. They had the tacked up hull mounted inside two steel hoops which rested on rollers. That allowed them to rotate the whole hull so that all the welding was at worst not "up hill".  They said it worked pretty well. I have not heard of it done elsewhere.   I do not know if something like that is practical for a BS hull.   Wally Paine  --- On Sun, 24/8/08, theboilerflue wrote: From: theboilerflue Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 24 August, 2008, 10:56 PM I have found the same thing welding the deck and cabin plate. Any welds uphill would just produce either holes blown through or if i moved faster to keep the heat down would look like poured candle wa. downhill was the only way to do it. However i did find that the slag pool would build and snuff out the rod sometimes maybe the angle wasn't right. Well it can be done and is done. Comes > in very handy when welding lighter gage material. Try doing a verticle up > but weld on 16 gage with 1/8" 6011 then do verticle down with same and see [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18151|18148|2008-08-27 05:37:32|peter_d_wiley|Re: Lister slow speed engines???|The Listers fitted to narrowboats are NOT the run of the mill twin flywheel engines from India. Those Indian engines have no provision for fitting a marine g/box. The FR, SL and other old slow speed Listers are fine, provided you can deal with the weight. They weigh in at over 1200 lbs. I own a Lister FR2 with marine g/box and it's a monster. Delightful, but a monster. It's NEVER going in anything that displaces less than 15 tonnes, too much weight. There are Lister/Petter engines out of India that are suitable however, but there's only 1 I know of that comes with a marine transmission. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, BrdbMc@... wrote: > > > Hi, > Lister engines are well thought of on narrowboats on the canal system in > the UK. I have also worked on ones fitted to motor lifeboats on cargo ships, > over forty years ago. Spares in the UK are available and most can be shipped > world wide. > Search Lister on Google, some of the older parts are being reproduced > in Indian, the finish being good but may require the odd touch of fettling. > On a lighter note one it would appear that a tin of Brasso, metal polish, > is essential to make them sparkle most engines being on view in narrowboats. > > Mikeafloat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18152|18148|2008-08-27 07:01:26|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Lister slow speed engines???|In my previous email i mention that as far as i knew parts were being manufactured in india not engines for narrowcast hence the fettling. The link below gives a good fed back regarding performance etc. If i am wrong in my information i have learnt something today so still alive.lol Mikeafloat _http://www.lister-petter.co.uk/products__ (http://www.lister-petter.co.uk/products_) browse.php?productByType=3tp://marine.lister-petter.co.uk. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18153|18148|2008-08-27 08:56:37|thesnotrocket|Re: Lister slow speed engines???|For that price you could easily get a rebuilt industrial diesel (Perkins, Kubota, etc.) All you'd need then would be an SAE bellhousing to mate it to a marine transmission. If you get a used engine out of a machine it might even come with an appropriate bellhousing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gundoc7519" wrote: > > I found a place that has slow speed Listers with two large flywheels. > The 24 hp at 1000rpm engine is $3,500. Anyone know anything about > these engines and if they would be suitable for marine use. They are > four cycle cold starting diesels. Thanks for the input. > > Don > | 18154|18062|2008-08-27 19:23:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 07:09:06AM +0000, Wally Paine wrote: > I once saw a forty foot steel motor fishing boat being built by an > general engineering firm. They had the tacked up hull mounted inside > two steel hoops which rested on rollers. That allowed them to rotate > the whole hull so that all the welding was at worst not "up hill".  > They said it worked pretty well. I have not heard of it done > elsewhere. I've seen pictures of this being done at the Meta shipyard in France - the pic was actually in one of Bernard Moitessier's books - and it was done for the same reason. If I recall correctly, Meta could weld up a 50' hull using this rig in one day. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18155|18148|2008-08-27 22:43:02|brentswain38|Re: Lister slow speed engines???|They tend to be huge massive engines for the HP they put out. I saw a lister on the quay in Hiva Oa in the marquesas . It was about 6 ft high with two 4 ft flywheels , one on each end of the shaft. The brass plate on it said "Horsepower 6 RPM 600. It was being replaced by something more modern and compact. No practical use on a sailboat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gundoc7519" wrote: > > I found a place that has slow speed Listers with two large flywheels. > The 24 hp at 1000rpm engine is $3,500. Anyone know anything about > these engines and if they would be suitable for marine use. They are > four cycle cold starting diesels. Thanks for the input. > > Don > | 18156|18062|2008-08-28 03:14:57|brentswain38|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|Making up the hoops is well worthwhile if you are building many boats , but hardly justified for the 350 hours of welding it takes for a one off 36. Ditto for buying expensive welding equipment. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 07:09:06AM +0000, Wally Paine wrote: > > I once saw a forty foot steel motor fishing boat being built by an > > general engineering firm. They had the tacked up hull mounted inside > > two steel hoops which rested on rollers. That allowed them to rotate > > the whole hull so that all the welding was at worst not "up hill".  > > They said it worked pretty well. I have not heard of it done > > elsewhere. > > I've seen pictures of this being done at the Meta shipyard in France - > the pic was actually in one of Bernard Moitessier's books - and it was > done for the same reason. If I recall correctly, Meta could weld up a > 50' hull using this rig in one day. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18157|18157|2008-08-28 04:42:36|judycarterton|Freebies 28th August|This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the LATEST freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. They post new freebies on their 'home page', twice a week, so check out the link below every Monday and Thursday for the latest free-stuff! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/index.php?page=16 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 18158|18062|2008-08-28 05:09:56|Denis Buggy|Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore|dear Ben some years ago I posted a tale of the ayats bus factory in northern Spain who weld their bus frames in a rotation jig like a giant coke can with a bus inside , they would push the can with 8 workers across the yard and continue to weld all four sides of the frame to give outstanding joints regards Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 12:22 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Welding, Procedured vs gosup and folklore > On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 07:09:06AM +0000, Wally Paine wrote: >> I once saw a forty foot steel motor fishing boat being built by an >> general engineering firm. They had the tacked up hull mounted inside >> two steel hoops which rested on rollers. That allowed them to rotate >> the whole hull so that all the welding was at worst not "up hill". >> They said it worked pretty well. I have not heard of it done >> elsewhere. > > I've seen pictures of this being done at the Meta shipyard in France - > the pic was actually in one of Bernard Moitessier's books - and it was > done for the same reason. If I recall correctly, Meta could weld up a > 50' hull using this rig in one day. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 18159|18143|2008-08-29 01:32:45|Cal Johnson|Re: Brent Swain Origami boats in Australia|Hi Paul My name is Cal Lippiatt I live in country New South Wales Australia, my wife (Diane) and I have been looking for a boat to build for our retirement, one that we can go cruising off into the sunset with, and I think we have found it in a Brent Swain. We found the Yahoo home page and have been impressed with what we have seen, and hope that in the future we can ask you a few questions about your BS36 and it's build if that is OK? I have contacted Brent and bought his book, (already read it twice and I have only had it a week) apparently he has sold some plans down under but I am unsure if any have been built here in OZ.   Any way hope to hear back from you, You can email me on cal_d_44@...   Cheers Cal ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:23:35 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Brent Swain Origami boats in Australia I am not exactly in OZ but is New Zealand close enough? I am in New Plymouth, west side of the North Island. I have a BS 36. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of cal_sailing44 Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:51 AM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain Origami boats in Australia Hi All, is there any Brent Swain boats in OZ, I am looking to build one in the future and after emailing Brent he mentioned that he had sent some plans Down Under. So if any one is building or has built or is sailing one (Misty Blue was sold to someone in Morton Bay QLD) can you contact me through here or email me at cal_d_44@hotmail. Chers Cal No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.9/1635 - Release Date: 8/26/2008 7:29 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18160|18087|2008-08-30 12:08:23|Tom Mann|Re: Mess cleaned up|Ma aint this a bummer, Makes you want to beat the crap out of someone that needs it . Spent all the time cleaning it up, painted the last coat on the inside bottom and this week they came around spreading fertilizer "cow s**t" . Nice guys didnt shut spreader down when turning by the house here spread that crap all over front yard and boat. I now have a 1/4" of powderd cow **** inside and outside of boat. Country living at its finest. PO'ed Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18161|18161|2008-09-01 04:05:03|carol.streater|Freebies 1st September|This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link goes to the LATEST freebie page where you can collect TONS of fantastic items for FREE! http://www.freebietelegraph.com/ (this will take you directly to the new freebie page No.17) When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 18162|18115|2008-09-01 20:13:48|theboilerflue|Re: Any recomendations for overcoat|I was wondering what people have found to work well for the texture material foe non-slip? sand, sugar, aluminum oxide or rubber? > I've had good luck with Home Hardware fishboat paint over both > wasser and epoxy tar as long as the tar was wet when I put the first > coat of fishboat paint on. | 18163|18115|2008-09-01 20:16:49|brentswain38|Re: Any recomendations for overcoat|Beach sand from a freshwaer rbeach . It is too fine and rounded to sand your skin off, unlike sandblasting sand. Sprinkle it on wet paint , let it harden , then give it another coat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I was wondering what people have found to work well for the texture > material foe non-slip? sand, sugar, aluminum oxide or rubber? > > > > I've had good luck with Home Hardware fishboat paint over both > > wasser and epoxy tar as long as the tar was wet when I put the first > > coat of fishboat paint on. > | 18164|18164|2008-09-02 15:11:13|troller10|Request for a little design clerification|Brent,(or anyone else that has experience) I have a few questions in regard to the Plans for the 40 footer. I am 6'3". What do you recommend for the height of the Pilot house cabin side? (Front and Back height from the deck). I like the way Alex's boat looks. What were the dimensions of his Pilot house cabin sides? What is the front rake for the Pilot House cabin? What is the back rake for the pilot house cabin. On Alex's video, the Mast support cross piece is not explained. Could you specify the construction of that component, (a drawing would help). ie: 1/2 inch late centered on the mast, or two 1/4 plates 6" apart, or whatever. Thanks B Hamilton| 18165|18164|2008-09-02 18:36:34|brentswain38|Re: Request for a little design clerification|12 to 14 inches above the trunk cabin is a good height for the wheelhouse. There is plenty of room under the floor and you could put the floor whatever height you want with no problems. With the 36 and 40 the same is true of the main cabin floor. I give the wheelhouse front a 4 inch foreward slope and the back I give a 25 degree slope. I use whatever is left off the foredeck plate for the wheelhouse sides on the 36 and give it an extra 3 inches of slope from the angle of the side of the foredeck. This slp ope makes it easy to get in and out as your feet go down the lader as you mob ve foreward. People who went vertical on the back of the wheelhouse regretted it greatly as it made getting in and out like crawling into a rathole. Adequate slope is critical. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > Brent,(or anyone else that has experience) > > I have a few questions in regard to the Plans for the 40 footer. > > I am 6'3". What do you recommend for the height of the Pilot house > cabin side? (Front and Back height from the deck). I like the way > Alex's boat looks. What were the dimensions of his Pilot house cabin > sides? > > What is the front rake for the Pilot House cabin? > > What is the back rake for the pilot house cabin. > > On Alex's video, the Mast support cross piece is not explained. > Could you specify the construction of that component, (a drawing would > help). ie: 1/2 inch late centered on the mast, or two 1/4 plates 6" > apart, or whatever. > > Thanks > > B Hamilton > | 18166|18164|2008-09-02 18:43:04|brentswain38|Re: Request for a little design clerification|I make the mast support web out of a single piece of half inch plate, about 4 inches deep under the mast and turning into gussets on the ends nearer the cabin sides . This is clearly shown in my book. I burn a hole in each of the sides and, after sprayfoaming , bolt a couple of pieces of 3/4 inch plywood covers on, pulling them in to the foam with a couple of 3/8th inch bolts, then cover the bottom of the web with 1/4 inch plywood. Putting a conduit in before screwing the bottom on leaves you with a good way to run the mast wiring to one side. Using a large radius conduit elbow on the mast end lets you push your wiring thru easily. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > Brent,(or anyone else that has experience) > > I have a few questions in regard to the Plans for the 40 footer. > > I am 6'3". What do you recommend for the height of the Pilot house > cabin side? (Front and Back height from the deck). I like the way > Alex's boat looks. What were the dimensions of his Pilot house cabin > sides? > > What is the front rake for the Pilot House cabin? > > What is the back rake for the pilot house cabin. > > On Alex's video, the Mast support cross piece is not explained. > Could you specify the construction of that component, (a drawing would > help). ie: 1/2 inch late centered on the mast, or two 1/4 plates 6" > apart, or whatever. > > Thanks > > B Hamilton > | 18167|18164|2008-09-02 19:22:18|Paul Wilson|Re: Request for a little design clerification|Brent, I think it should be mentioned that you can use a post for a mast support instead of using a web. It's another way of doing it if it will fit with the interior layout and gives more headroom as you go forward. I believe mine is 3 inch schedule 40 pipe if I remember correctly. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 10:43 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Request for a little design clerification I make the mast support web out of a single piece of half inch plate, about 4 inches deep under the mast and turning into gussets on the ends nearer the cabin sides . This is clearly shown in my book. I burn a hole in each of the sides and, after sprayfoaming , bolt a couple of pieces of 3/4 inch plywood covers on, pulling them in to the foam with a couple of 3/8th inch bolts, then cover the bottom of the web with 1/4 inch plywood. Putting a conduit in before screwing the bottom on leaves you with a good way to run the mast wiring to one side. Using a large radius conduit elbow on the mast end lets you push your wiring thru easily. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "troller10" wrote: > > Brent,(or anyone else that has experience) > > I have a few questions in regard to the Plans for the 40 footer. > > I am 6'3". What do you recommend for the height of the Pilot house > cabin side? (Front and Back height from the deck). I like the way > Alex's boat looks. What were the dimensions of his Pilot house cabin > sides? > > What is the front rake for the Pilot House cabin? > > What is the back rake for the pilot house cabin. > > On Alex's video, the Mast support cross piece is not explained. > Could you specify the construction of that component, (a drawing would > help). ie: 1/2 inch late centered on the mast, or two 1/4 plates 6" > apart, or whatever. > > Thanks > > B Hamilton > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1647 - Release Date: 9/2/2008 5:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18168|18164|2008-09-02 19:53:00|Aaron Williams|Re: Request for a little design clerification|Speaking of mast, was it determined that 5 inch sch 40 was acceptable to use for mast on the BS36 --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Request for a little design clerification To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 3:22 PM Brent, I think it should be mentioned that you can use a post for a mast support instead of using a web. It's another way of doing it if it will fit with the interior layout and gives more headroom as you go forward. I believe mine is 3 inch schedule 40 pipe if I remember correctly. Cheers, Paul nsubscribe Recent Activity  9 New Members  1 New LinksVisit Your Group Health Zone Look your best! Groups to help you look & feel great. Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18169|18164|2008-09-02 20:37:47|troller10|Re: Request for a little design clerification|Brent, Thank you for the info. That really helps. Paul, I did consider a support post but, all my previous boat had mast's that went clear through the deck and I wanted to try the web. I'll be back with more questions I am sure. Thanks again B Hamilton| 18170|18164|2008-09-02 20:37:50|troller10|Re: Request for a little design clerification|Brent, Thank you for the info. That really helps. Paul, I did consider a support post but, all my previous boat had mast's that went clear through the deck and I wanted to try the web. I'll be back with more questions I am sure. Thanks again B Hamilton| 18171|18164|2008-09-02 20:57:10|James Pronk|Re: Request for a little design clerification|I think .125 wall 5 inch is what the plans call for for the mast on a BS36. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Speaking of mast, was it determined that 5 inch sch 40 was acceptable to use for mast on the BS36 > | 18172|18164|2008-09-02 21:39:36|Paul Wilson|Re: Request for a little design clerification|My mast is aluminum and deck stepped so it doesn’t go through the deck. The support post is directly under the mast, steel pipe and welded between the deck and keel so it does the same as the web. There are two pipe supports (1 ¼ inch?) for the side decks that add rigidity to the decks at the same longitudinal location as the mast. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of troller10 Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 12:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Request for a little design clerification Brent, Thank you for the info. That really helps. Paul, I did consider a support post but, all my previous boat had mast's that went clear through the deck and I wanted to try the web. I'll be back with more questions I am sure. Thanks again B Hamilton No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.15/1648 - Release Date: 9/2/2008 5:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18173|18173|2008-09-03 00:13:21|Jim Douglas|Re: Livaboard Moorage|This is not really about Orgami Construction but will be relevant to most members building in the Lower Mainland and Mid Vancouver Island areas. I have been looking for livaboard moorage for my 42 foot steel Gazelle and have found a lot of resistance to sites allowing livaboard moorage in the Vancouver and Nanaimo/Parksville areas. I have determined that I could get in at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond but it takes two to three hours motoring to open water from there. Also most Vancouver area marinas (allowing livaboards or not) seem to be fully booked out, especially the ones close to the Strait or my home in North Vancouver. Might any of you have any leads on this? Thanks.| 18174|18173|2008-09-03 01:03:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: Livaboard Moorage|On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 04:13:17AM -0000, Jim Douglas wrote: > This is not really about Orgami Construction but will be relevant to > most members building in the Lower Mainland and Mid Vancouver Island > areas. > > I have been looking for livaboard moorage for my 42 foot steel Gazelle > and have found a lot of resistance to sites allowing livaboard moorage > in the Vancouver and Nanaimo/Parksville areas. I have determined that > I could get in at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond but it takes two to > three hours motoring to open water from there. > > Also most Vancouver area marinas (allowing livaboards or not) seem to > be fully booked out, especially the ones close to the Strait or my home > in North Vancouver. > > Might any of you have any leads on this? I don't know anything about the Canadian side of things, but I've done a lot of research on the situation in the US, and living aboard seems to be an anathema to people on the West Coast. What little there is in California is regulated to death - the people I've spoken to seem to be living in a police state and on bare sufferance. I've heard of nothing at all of the sort in Oregon, and there's a very small and (again) embattled and constantly harassed community of liveaboards in Washington State. I'd love to hang my hat on that side of the continent, for a lot of different reasons, but so far I've found it impossible. The East Coast is *much* more liveaboard-friendly. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18175|18173|2008-09-03 01:22:34|djackson99@aol.com|Paul Liebenberg's 65 ft Origami Junk - Construction Photos|We're back from our 2nd visit to the heartland of Origami and this time we came back with hull plans and a 74" model that Jack Carson put together for us.? Just for a bit of contrast, here in Oklahoma if it's a boat, then it's a bass boat, and you have to explain that we are actually connected to the ocean.? In Comox; Cliff at the UPS Store had an the Origami hull model sitting on his desk.? Cliff was more interested in taking photos and talking about the boat that shipping it, but he saved us a lot of money by suggestion that we drive it across the border.? The US boarder authorities recognized the design and we met other Origami builders at the Metal Boat Society Festival in Bellingham. We've also visited Paul Liebenberg and again toured his 65 ft Origami Junk. This time we brought back Paul's photos as they will serve us well as we begin our build.? I've posted them to our site should anyone else be interested in building a ship instead of a boat.? :) http://www.submarineboat.com/pauls_boat.htm We plan to get started welding next summer and we'll update the site routinely as it is our way of tracking progress, keeping notes, and making plans.? Your advise is always welcomed and please stop in for a visit. If you find yourself far from every ocean then you near Tulsa, Oklahoma. Have A Nice Day. Doug & Kay Jackson ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18176|18173|2008-09-03 03:12:27|Jim Douglas|Re: Livaboard Moorage|Ben Thanks for your reply. Seems I'm presently enjoying the Canadian version of your American abhorence for livaboards. While I'm mainly a lurker on the Group I am a definite Swain fan and plan to "Brentify" my boat as funds and time allow. Also, I have enjoyed your many and frequent contributions to the group. Jim Douglas North Vancouver, B.C. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 04:13:17AM -0000, Jim Douglas wrote: > > This is not really about Orgami Construction but will be relevant to > > most members building in the Lower Mainland and Mid Vancouver Island > > areas. > > > > I have been looking for livaboard moorage for my 42 foot steel Gazelle > > and have found a lot of resistance to sites allowing livaboard moorage > > in the Vancouver and Nanaimo/Parksville areas. I have determined that > > I could get in at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond but it takes two to > > three hours motoring to open water from there. > > > > Also most Vancouver area marinas (allowing livaboards or not) seem to > > be fully booked out, especially the ones close to the Strait or my home > > in North Vancouver. > > > > Might any of you have any leads on this? > > I don't know anything about the Canadian side of things, but I've done a > lot of research on the situation in the US, and living aboard seems to > be an anathema to people on the West Coast. What little there is in > California is regulated to death - the people I've spoken to seem to be > living in a police state and on bare sufferance. I've heard of nothing > at all of the sort in Oregon, and there's a very small and (again) > embattled and constantly harassed community of liveaboards in Washington > State. > > I'd love to hang my hat on that side of the continent, for a lot of > different reasons, but so far I've found it impossible. The East Coast > is *much* more liveaboard-friendly. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18177|18173|2008-09-03 09:08:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: Livaboard Moorage|On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 07:12:25AM -0000, Jim Douglas wrote: > Ben > Thanks for your reply. Seems I'm presently enjoying the Canadian > version of your American abhorence for livaboards. While I'm mainly > a lurker on the Group I am a definite Swain fan and plan > to "Brentify" my boat as funds and time allow. [grin] That's why I hang out here. I don't know that I'll ever get around to building a Brentboat - but if I buy another boat, it'll definitely be a Swain. It's one of the few *rationally* designed boats I've ever seen, with attention to details that can only come from experience as a long-term cruiser and liveaboard. Meanwhile, I'm "Brentifying" stuff aboard 'Ulysses': any time I need to fix some system, I think about Brent's way of doing it, and often end up redoing it that way. > Also, I have enjoyed your many and frequent contributions to the > group. Thanks, Jim! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18178|18173|2008-09-03 11:26:48|mark hamill|Re: Livaboard Moorage|In the Lower Mainland I have lived at Shelter Island, a small marina called Riversbend just north of Shelter Island and Captains Cove. There are several small marinas around Riversbend that have liveaboad space. One of the people at Shelter Island found liveaboard space at Bowen Island the something or other Steamship company. While it might seem far out, he claimed he could get downtown by bus in 30 minutes from the Horseshoe Bay terminal.| 18179|18173|2008-09-03 15:35:04|brentswain38|Re: Livaboard Moorage|You could try the Sunshine coast ( Formerly called the moonshine coast. I hear Port Stalashen south of Sechelt has a lot of vacant space. You may need high tides to get out. I see moorage advertised in Secret Cove for reasonable price. Diesel at Secret cove Marina, the first one you see entering the Cove is a lot more expesive than Buccaneer , just up the channel. It was 22 cents a litre more a couple of years ago. Liveaboard here is no problem if you stay out of town and don't moor where everybody else wants to moor. I always anchor out , refusing to pay anyone to tell me what I may or may not do on my own boat. They would have to pay me to tie up in a marina. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 04:13:17AM -0000, Jim Douglas wrote: > > This is not really about Orgami Construction but will be relevant to > > most members building in the Lower Mainland and Mid Vancouver Island > > areas. > > > > I have been looking for livaboard moorage for my 42 foot steel Gazelle > > and have found a lot of resistance to sites allowing livaboard moorage > > in the Vancouver and Nanaimo/Parksville areas. I have determined that > > I could get in at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond but it takes two to > > three hours motoring to open water from there. > > > > Also most Vancouver area marinas (allowing livaboards or not) seem to > > be fully booked out, especially the ones close to the Strait or my home > > in North Vancouver. > > > > Might any of you have any leads on this? > > I don't know anything about the Canadian side of things, but I've done a > lot of research on the situation in the US, and living aboard seems to > be an anathema to people on the West Coast. What little there is in > California is regulated to death - the people I've spoken to seem to be > living in a police state and on bare sufferance. I've heard of nothing > at all of the sort in Oregon, and there's a very small and (again) > embattled and constantly harassed community of liveaboards in Washington > State. > > I'd love to hang my hat on that side of the continent, for a lot of > different reasons, but so far I've found it impossible. The East Coast > is *much* more liveaboard-friendly. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18180|18164|2008-09-03 15:37:33|brentswain38|Re: Request for a little design clerification|I prefer the web because it doesn't limit your interior to what will fit around the post if you change it in the future. The web leaves your options open. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Brent, I think it should be mentioned that you can use a post for a mast > support instead of using a web. It's another way of doing it if it will fit > with the interior layout and gives more headroom as you go forward. I > believe mine is 3 inch schedule 40 pipe if I remember correctly. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 10:43 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Request for a little design clerification > > I make the mast support web out of a single piece of half inch plate, > about 4 inches deep under the mast and turning into gussets on the > ends nearer the cabin sides . This is clearly shown in my book. I > burn a hole in each of the sides and, after sprayfoaming , bolt a > couple of pieces of 3/4 inch plywood covers on, pulling them in to > the foam with a couple of 3/8th inch bolts, then cover the bottom of > the web with 1/4 inch plywood. Putting a conduit in before screwing > the bottom on leaves you with a good way to run the mast wiring to > one side. Using a large radius conduit elbow on the mast end lets you > push your wiring thru easily. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "troller10" wrote: > > > > Brent,(or anyone else that has experience) > > > > I have a few questions in regard to the Plans for the 40 footer. > > > > I am 6'3". What do you recommend for the height of the Pilot house > > cabin side? (Front and Back height from the deck). I like the way > > Alex's boat looks. What were the dimensions of his Pilot house cabin > > sides? > > > > What is the front rake for the Pilot House cabin? > > > > What is the back rake for the pilot house cabin. > > > > On Alex's video, the Mast support cross piece is not explained. > > Could you specify the construction of that component, (a drawing > would > > help). ie: 1/2 inch late centered on the mast, or two 1/4 plates 6" > > apart, or whatever. > > > > Thanks > > > > B Hamilton > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1647 - Release Date: 9/2/2008 > 5:29 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18181|18164|2008-09-03 15:40:37|brentswain38|Re: Request for a little design clerification|5 inch is a little small for a 36. We used to use 5 1/2 sucessfully, but that is getting hard to find or just unavailable. 6 inch is what we have been using lately. It comes in 24 foot lengths which eliminates one more joint. I used a 12 inch long scarf on the last mast I did, saving both weight and time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Speaking of mast, was it determined that 5 inch sch 40 was acceptable to use for mast on the BS36 > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Request for a little design clerification > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 3:22 PM > > > > > > > Brent, I think it should be mentioned that you can use a post for a mast > support instead of using a web. It's another way of doing it if it will fit > with the interior layout and gives more headroom as you go forward. I > believe mine is 3 inch schedule 40 pipe if I remember correctly. > > Cheers, Paul > > nsubscribe > > > > Recent Activity > > >  9 > New Members > >  1 > New LinksVisit Your Group > > > Health Zone > Look your best! > Groups to help you > look & feel great. > > Yahoo! News > Odd News > You won't believe > it, but it's true > > Yahoo! Finance > It's Now Personal > Guides, news, > advice & more. > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18182|18173|2008-09-03 15:46:25|brentswain38|Re: Livaboard Moorage|Most of the abhorrence to liveaboards is from the real estate industry, who are shocked at the thought of anyone escaping their grip. If they feel we all owe them a living then they should apply at the welfare office like honest welfare bums. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" wrote: > > Ben > Thanks for your reply. Seems I'm presently enjoying the Canadian > version of your American abhorence for livaboards. While I'm mainly > a lurker on the Group I am a definite Swain fan and plan > to "Brentify" my boat as funds and time allow. > > Also, I have enjoyed your many and frequent contributions to the > group. > > Jim Douglas > North Vancouver, B.C. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 04:13:17AM -0000, Jim Douglas wrote: > > > This is not really about Orgami Construction but will be > relevant to > > > most members building in the Lower Mainland and Mid Vancouver > Island > > > areas. > > > > > > I have been looking for livaboard moorage for my 42 foot steel > Gazelle > > > and have found a lot of resistance to sites allowing livaboard > moorage > > > in the Vancouver and Nanaimo/Parksville areas. I have > determined that > > > I could get in at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond but it takes > two to > > > three hours motoring to open water from there. > > > > > > Also most Vancouver area marinas (allowing livaboards or not) > seem to > > > be fully booked out, especially the ones close to the Strait or > my home > > > in North Vancouver. > > > > > > Might any of you have any leads on this? > > > > I don't know anything about the Canadian side of things, but I've > done a > > lot of research on the situation in the US, and living aboard > seems to > > be an anathema to people on the West Coast. What little there is in > > California is regulated to death - the people I've spoken to seem > to be > > living in a police state and on bare sufferance. I've heard of > nothing > > at all of the sort in Oregon, and there's a very small and (again) > > embattled and constantly harassed community of liveaboards in > Washington > > State. > > > > I'd love to hang my hat on that side of the continent, for a lot of > > different reasons, but so far I've found it impossible. The East > Coast > > is *much* more liveaboard-friendly. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 18183|18183|2008-09-04 06:22:33|amanda.fairweather|Freebies 4th September|This is a link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week so I thought I would, share it with the group...enjoy! The link below goes to the LATEST freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! There is so much on offer that its definately worth the visit. http://www.freebietelegraph.com/index.php?page=18 When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 18184|1366|2008-09-05 10:11:54|mr_lugnuts_2007|Double ender|Has anyone built an origami double ender? I've seen the drawings in the files section but I'm wondering if anyone has built one? Thx.Lugnuts| 18185|18173|2008-09-05 13:06:24|Jim Douglas|Re: Livaboard Moorage|Thanks Guys, I have decided on Captain's Cove Marina for now. Got their very last slip too! And no they don't allow full time liveaboards but after thinking a bit further on the matter it appears to me that I won't really need full time liveaboard moorage until after I retire anyway (hopefully in 3 or four more years). For the moment places like Bowen Island and Sechelt while nice to know about are unfortunately outside of my normal travelling routine. One of the reasons I decided to buy rather than build is that I have already found that the time demands of my professional and private life don't leave me much in the way of spare time. I'd love to try living on the hook and probably will at somepoint but my present day reality demands a dock. Security is also an issue for me. Did I mention that this is my very first boat? I have a quite bit to pick up on (the whole nine yards in fact) before I can head off confidently on my own. I look on this as an aprenticeship....everyone starts from somewhere eh? Also I'll need a bit of time to add a few more features to the boat to make her more suitable for off the grid living. So being tied up to a dock is a good compromise for the present. My longer term objective is of course to liveaboard full time after I retire. I have very purposely chosen this option as opposed to buying a condo and mortgaging my life to the hilt. Liveaboard living, whether with a marina or without, costs a small fraction of living conventionally does. With the outrageous price of real estate here in the Lower Mainland, I am amazed that more people have not thought of doing this! Thanks again for your help. Jim Douglas North Vancouver, B.C. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Most of the abhorrence to liveaboards is from the real estate > industry, who are shocked at the thought of anyone escaping their > grip. If they feel we all owe them a living then they should apply > at the welfare office like honest welfare bums. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" > wrote: > > > > Ben > > Thanks for your reply. Seems I'm presently enjoying the Canadian > > version of your American abhorence for livaboards. While I'm mainly > > a lurker on the Group I am a definite Swain fan and plan > > to "Brentify" my boat as funds and time allow. > > > > Also, I have enjoyed your many and frequent contributions to the > > group. > > > > Jim Douglas > > North Vancouver, B.C. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 04:13:17AM -0000, Jim Douglas wrote: > > > > This is not really about Orgami Construction but will be > > relevant to > > > > most members building in the Lower Mainland and Mid Vancouver > > Island > > > > areas. > > > > > > > > I have been looking for livaboard moorage for my 42 foot steel > > Gazelle > > > > and have found a lot of resistance to sites allowing livaboard > > moorage > > > > in the Vancouver and Nanaimo/Parksville areas. I have > > determined that > > > > I could get in at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond but it > takes > > two to > > > > three hours motoring to open water from there. > > > > > > > > Also most Vancouver area marinas (allowing livaboards or not) > > seem to > > > > be fully booked out, especially the ones close to the Strait or > > my home > > > > in North Vancouver. > > > > > > > > Might any of you have any leads on this? > > > > > > I don't know anything about the Canadian side of things, but I've > > done a > > > lot of research on the situation in the US, and living aboard > > seems to > > > be an anathema to people on the West Coast. What little there is > in > > > California is regulated to death - the people I've spoken to seem > > to be > > > living in a police state and on bare sufferance. I've heard of > > nothing > > > at all of the sort in Oregon, and there's a very small and (again) > > > embattled and constantly harassed community of liveaboards in > > Washington > > > State. > > > > > > I'd love to hang my hat on that side of the continent, for a lot > of > > > different reasons, but so far I've found it impossible. The East > > Coast > > > is *much* more liveaboard-friendly. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > | 18186|1366|2008-09-05 13:40:23|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Double ender|Paul Liebenberg's boat started off as a double ender before he decided to have more aft deck and converted her to a junk.? See photos: http://www.submarineboat.com/pauls_boat.htm Have A Nice Day. Doug -----Original Message----- From: mr_lugnuts_2007 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 9:11 am Subject: [origamiboats] Double ender Has anyone built an origami double ender? I've seen the drawings in the files section but I'm wondering if anyone has built one? Thx.Lugnuts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18187|1366|2008-09-05 14:18:03|brentswain38|Re: Double ender|Bruce Pfister started a 39 ft origami double ender on Quadra Island, which Jack Carson bought in the bare hull stage, added beam and several feet amidship to make her a 44 ft origami double ender. He is cruisng Mexico on the boat "Bella Via "in the winters. All you do is put a bow on both ends, then try remember which one points foreward. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > Has anyone built an origami double ender? I've seen the drawings in the > files section but I'm wondering if anyone has built one? Thx.Lugnuts > | 18188|18164|2008-09-05 15:39:22|Norman G Moore|Re: Request for a little design clerification|Brent, On the 40 footer plans the drawing of the transom shows 7' across with the camber, which matches the deck plan at the transom (7' straight across between the hull sides. Does the transom drawing need to be expanded to create the flat pattern to cut out of the plate, or am I reading this wrong?| 18189|18164|2008-09-05 17:54:12|brentswain38|Re: Request for a little design clerification|No ,my mistake . Just use the transom to the dimensions givven . The difference is too small to worry about. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Norman G Moore" wrote: > > > Brent, On the 40 footer plans the drawing of the transom shows 7' > across with the camber, which matches the deck plan at the transom (7' > straight across between the hull sides. Does the transom drawing need > to be expanded to create the flat pattern to cut out of the plate, or > am I reading this wrong? > | 18190|18190|2008-09-06 04:43:53|theboilerflue|Blast!|well yjats done it i just finished sandblasting and priming the inside of my boat Tom i don't know how you managed to do your boat down there in the heat. Sandblasting in a small closed space is absolutly the worst job known to man. Someone said that i looked like one of those actors in those old silent films where the had white people playing back people and then i got all that paint all over me. i tried really hard but it doesn't seem to come off even with the thinner it came with. i mean it took a little bit off but my hands are still a dark metallic green and i didn't want to splash my face with urethane thinner so the splashes across my cheeks will have to wear off or something. i have always excelled at getting paint everywere. I had no idea it would take so long but i guess not being able to see anything after the first five-ten minutes boy when i do the outside of the boat later this weekend i'll be in heaven - i'll actually be able to see what i'm doing. By the way that shop priming is amazing if i had to take all the steel down to bare metal it would have taken days. Even after almost four years of sitting that shop primer holds it own to the sand blaster real nice i just had to give a slight pass over to roughen it up a bit. hopefully i got everything with the sprayer it was getting a little late and dark and i was very tired. i'm going to bed now| 18191|18190|2008-09-06 07:20:39|Tom Mann|Re: Blast!|Yep it wasnt to much fun in the heat and the painting wasnt much better. I wont do one again in the heat . Its nice because its dry and no moisture but how do you keep from sweating all over everything. Tom On 9/6/08, theboilerflue wrote: > > well yjats done it i just finished sandblasting and priming the inside > of my boat Tom i don't know how you managed to do your boat down there > in the heat. Sandblasting in a small closed space is absolutly the > worst job known to man. Someone said that i looked like one of those > actors in those old silent films where the had white people playing > back people and then i got all that paint all over me. i tried really > hard but it doesn't seem to come off even with the thinner it came > with. i mean it took a little bit off but my hands are still a dark > metallic green and i didn't want to splash my face with urethane > thinner so the splashes across my cheeks will have to wear off or > something. i have always excelled at getting paint everywere. I had no > idea it would take so long but i guess not being able to see anything > after the first five-ten minutes boy when i do the outside of the boat > later this weekend i'll be in heaven - i'll actually be able to see > what i'm doing. By the way that shop priming is amazing if i had to > take all the steel down to bare metal it would have taken days. Even > after almost four years of sitting that shop primer holds it own to > the sand blaster real nice i just had to give a slight pass over to > roughen it up a bit. hopefully i got everything with the sprayer it > was getting a little late and dark and i was very tired. i'm going to > bed now > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18192|18192|2008-09-06 08:35:23|andyairey|Piece of string|I know that this is a 'how long is a piece of string' question but what would be a reasonable length of weld per hour for a) joining 2 12mm plates together with a butt joint b)joining 6mm to 12mm plate either overlap or T joint c)butting 2 6mm plates together.Assume a professional welder.I'm trying to get some idea of costs on welding up athe critical bits of a barge hull - 12mm flat bottom plate and 6mm sides cheers andy airey| 18193|18192|2008-09-06 11:58:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: Piece of string|On Sat, Sep 06, 2008 at 12:35:20PM -0000, andyairey wrote: > I know that this is a 'how long is a piece of string' question but what > would be a reasonable length of weld per hour for a) joining 2 12mm > plates together with a butt joint b)joining 6mm to 12mm plate either > overlap or T joint c)butting 2 6mm plates together.Assume a > professional welder.I'm trying to get some idea of costs on welding up > athe critical bits of a barge hull - 12mm flat bottom plate and 6mm > sides I think you'll find that the actual "tool time" for your weldor is not the critical part; it's going to take him a bunch of time to set up, measure, align, etc. everything that needs to be done before he ever fires up the big sparky machine. Making a foot-long weld can cost a million dollars if you have to take the entire ship apart to get to it - but ten feet of weld could be wrapped up in fifteen minutes if all the prep had been done and someone else would do all the cleanup. Welding rates don't mean very much, but if somebody had me chained up in a corner with large artillery aimed at me, and I just _knew_ that Superman was off on a date with Lois Lane and too busy to come rescue me right then, I'd grudgingly admit to, say, 6-12" per minute for a pro with a stick welder and maybe twice that with a MIG welder. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18194|18190|2008-09-06 15:30:25|Paul Wilson|Re: Blast!|>>Sandblasting in a small closed space is absolutely the worst job known to man. Congratulations. You deserve it. My primer failed so I had to sandblast my entire boat..you are absolutely right, it's a horrible job and was probably one of the worst experiences in my life. The outside will be a breeze compared to the inside. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18195|18190|2008-09-07 01:22:00|theboilerflue|Re: Blast!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Yep it wasnt to much fun in the heat and the painting wasnt much better. I > wont do one again in the heat . Its nice because its dry and no moisture but > how do you keep from sweating all over everything. > Tom I don't think i'll ever do it again ever. but i had that same problem of dripping salty water off my brow constantly shoud have worn a head band. Well the inside is now fully painted. I had ahell of a time spraying the wasser coal tar mixed with the ceramic beads i tried the biggest nozzle that the sprayer could handle (.023) and it still cloged up every thirty seconds. I just ended up rolling it on any way. Quite possibly the worst paint job i've ever done with drips and runs and globs everywhere but i made sure everythings got a nice thick coat of paint. i don't know how i'll ever get this stuff off my hands/arms maybe tomorow i'll just not wear glove for the first little bit while sand blasting ;)| 18196|1366|2008-09-07 09:12:21|Andrew Sullivan|Re: Double ender|I bought your plans for the 26 and I'm happy with them but I was thinking of a double ender-something like a NorSea27 w/ aft cabin. Looks good in cardboard but steel might be a little tougher to bend on the stern end if I tighten up the curve for a blunter end. I might try it, keep to your original lines so if I screw it up, I could just cut it off for a normal stern. brentswain38 wrote: Bruce Pfister started a 39 ft origami double ender on Quadra Island, which Jack Carson bought in the bare hull stage, added beam and several feet amidship to make her a 44 ft origami double ender. He is cruisng Mexico on the boat "Bella Via "in the winters. All you do is put a bow on both ends, then try remember which one points foreward. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > Has anyone built an origami double ender? I've seen the drawings in the > files section but I'm wondering if anyone has built one? Thx.Lugnuts > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18197|18197|2008-09-08 04:41:13|milliebraccleton|Freebies 8th September|Here is the link to a NEW FREEBIE PAGE for this week...enjoy! The link goes to the LATEST freebie page where you can collect TONS of items for FREE! http://www.amazingfreebies.net If you have a problem reaching the page using the link above, simply type the following (without the brackets and spaces of course!) directly into your browser: (www.) freebietelegraph (.com) and you will be taken to the latest page of freebies! When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass on the link above, like I did! Take care and have a great week!| 18198|18192|2008-09-08 15:05:31|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Piece of string|It's likely to be me who does the cleanup and I'm hoping that the setup will be reasonably straightforward but thanks for the advice cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18199|18199|2008-09-08 15:09:19|edward_stoneuk|diesel tank hatch gasket|One of my next tasks will be to bolt on the inspection hatches in the two keel diesel tanks. What is the preferred material for making gaskets for them? Regards, Ted| 18200|18199|2008-09-08 15:55:24|Aaron Williams|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket| Radiator repair shops carry a self adhesive cork gasket material that should work. Aaron --- On Mon, 9/8/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: From: edward_stoneuk Subject: [origamiboats] diesel tank hatch gasket To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 11:08 AM One of my next tasks will be to bolt on the inspection hatches in the two keel diesel tanks. What is the preferred material for making gaskets for them? Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18201|18199|2008-09-08 16:16:54|Carl Anderson|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|Ed, I used some Permatex blue silicone sealant for both my diesel & water tanks. No leaks as yet. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > One of my next tasks will be to bolt on the inspection hatches in the > two keel diesel tanks. > What is the preferred material for making gaskets for them? > > Regards, > Ted > > | 18202|18190|2008-09-08 18:31:19|brentswain38|Re: Blast!|Long periods in the swimmin pool soften the body paint a bit as long as it's relatively fresh. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > well yjats done it i just finished sandblasting and priming the inside > of my boat Tom i don't know how you managed to do your boat down there > in the heat. Sandblasting in a small closed space is absolutly the > worst job known to man. Someone said that i looked like one of those > actors in those old silent films where the had white people playing > back people and then i got all that paint all over me. i tried really > hard but it doesn't seem to come off even with the thinner it came > with. i mean it took a little bit off but my hands are still a dark > metallic green and i didn't want to splash my face with urethane > thinner so the splashes across my cheeks will have to wear off or > something. i have always excelled at getting paint everywere. I had no > idea it would take so long but i guess not being able to see anything > after the first five-ten minutes boy when i do the outside of the boat > later this weekend i'll be in heaven - i'll actually be able to see > what i'm doing. By the way that shop priming is amazing if i had to > take all the steel down to bare metal it would have taken days. Even > after almost four years of sitting that shop primer holds it own to > the sand blaster real nice i just had to give a slight pass over to > roughen it up a bit. hopefully i got everything with the sprayer it > was getting a little late and dark and i was very tired. i'm going to > bed now > | 18203|18192|2008-09-08 18:38:02|brentswain38|Re: Piece of string|Maximising the amount of fitting , grinding, etc that you can do yourself, drasticaly reduces the cost of hiring someone. That way you don't get billed for to much "Splainin and head scratching" I tell people building roller furlers to bolt , pop rivet and tape together as much as possible before taking it to an aluminium welder. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 06, 2008 at 12:35:20PM -0000, andyairey wrote: > > I know that this is a 'how long is a piece of string' question but what > > would be a reasonable length of weld per hour for a) joining 2 12mm > > plates together with a butt joint b)joining 6mm to 12mm plate either > > overlap or T joint c)butting 2 6mm plates together.Assume a > > professional welder.I'm trying to get some idea of costs on welding up > > athe critical bits of a barge hull - 12mm flat bottom plate and 6mm > > sides > > I think you'll find that the actual "tool time" for your weldor is not > the critical part; it's going to take him a bunch of time to set up, > measure, align, etc. everything that needs to be done before he ever > fires up the big sparky machine. Making a foot-long weld can cost a > million dollars if you have to take the entire ship apart to get to it - > but ten feet of weld could be wrapped up in fifteen minutes if all the > prep had been done and someone else would do all the cleanup. > > Welding rates don't mean very much, but if somebody had me chained up in > a corner with large artillery aimed at me, and I just _knew_ that > Superman was off on a date with Lois Lane and too busy to come rescue me > right then, I'd grudgingly admit to, say, 6-12" per minute for a pro > with a stick welder and maybe twice that with a MIG welder. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18204|1366|2008-09-08 18:41:23|brentswain38|Re: Double ender|Thats a big stern to try pull to a point. Why would you bother. Double enders tend to hobby horse badly when trying to beat into a headsea. They have far less room in the stern than a transom hull. They don't make a lot of sense. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > I bought your plans for the 26 and I'm happy with them but I was thinking of a double ender-something like a NorSea27 w/ aft cabin. Looks good in cardboard but steel might be a little tougher to bend on the stern end if I tighten up the curve for a blunter end. I might try it, keep to your original lines so if I screw it up, I could just cut it off for a normal stern. > > brentswain38 wrote: Bruce Pfister started a 39 ft origami double ender on Quadra Island, > which Jack Carson bought in the bare hull stage, added beam and several > feet amidship to make her a 44 ft origami double ender. He is cruisng > Mexico on the boat "Bella Via "in the winters. > All you do is put a bow on both ends, then try remember which one > points foreward. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" > wrote: > > > > > > Has anyone built an origami double ender? I've seen the drawings in > the > > files section but I'm wondering if anyone has built one? Thx.Lugnuts > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18205|1366|2008-09-08 21:40:15|Paul Wilson|Re: Double ender|>>>Double enders tend to hobby horse badly when trying to beat into a headsea. They have far less room in the stern than a transom hull. They don't make a lot of sense. Right on. They also suck up a big stern wave when you are going fast. The water tends to get sucked up the stern and create a large quarter wave rather than break free like it does with a transom. Here in NZ, double enders are relatively hard to find. Rightly or wrongly, they are looked upon as "those heavy, slow American boats". This is not my quote, but I have heard it more than once. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18206|18206|2008-09-09 07:27:33|drayton.kerry|New Page of Freebies|Dear Members Everyone loves something for nothing, and you are just 2 CLICKS away from a pile of the LATEST Free-Stuff available on the web! 1.Click the text link below and it will take you to a new Freebie Group (you don't have to join it if you do not want to!) 2. THEN simply click on the LINK BELOW the home page PICTURE and you will be taken to TODAYS NEWEST FREEBIES! Click Here to check out the NEW page of Freebies Take care and have a great week! Note: If you have a problem accessing the group, simply type: (www.) freebietelegraph (.com) into your browser (without the brackets and spaces!) and you will also be taken directly to the new freebie page. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18207|18199|2008-09-09 11:03:25|Gordon Schnell|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|Have you considered Lexan "windows" in place of the water and fuel tank "access" ports. You can see into the tank with a flashlight and also have access for cleaning, if necessary. Gord Carl Anderson wrote: > > Ed, > > I used some Permatex blue silicone sealant for both my diesel & water > tanks. No leaks as yet. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > One of my next tasks will be to bolt on the inspection hatches in the > > two keel diesel tanks. > > What is the preferred material for making gaskets for them? > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > | 18208|18199|2008-09-09 11:19:44|djackson99@aol.com|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|Does diesel react at all with acrylic? Thanks Doug J www.submarineboat.com -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Schnell To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 10:03 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] diesel tank hatch gasket Have you considered Lexan "windows" in place of the water and fuel tank "access" ports. You can see into the tank with a flashlight and also have access for cleaning, if necessary. Gord Carl Anderson wrote: > > Ed, > > I used some Permatex blue silicone sealant for both my diesel & water > tanks. No leaks as yet. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > One of my next tasks will be to bolt on the inspection hatches in the > > two keel diesel tanks. > > What is the preferred material for making gaskets for them? > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18209|18199|2008-09-09 13:17:38|edward_stoneuk|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|Hi Gord, I did think about it but thought that they would soon get scratched opaque. I have fitted some spiral mechanical level gauges. Regards, Ted > Have you considered Lexan "windows" in place of the water and fuel tank > "access" ports. You can see into the tank with a flashlight and also > have access for cleaning, if necessary. > Gord | 18210|18199|2008-09-09 14:06:50|brentswain38|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|No problem. Acrylic is what they make Racor diesel filtre bowls out of. Under the floor, which is rarely lifted, there is no problem with scratching a tanktop window. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Does diesel react at all with acrylic? > > Thanks > Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gordon Schnell > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 10:03 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] diesel tank hatch gasket > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered Lexan "windows" in place of the water and fuel tank > > "access" ports. You can see into the tank with a flashlight and also > > have access for cleaning, if necessary. > > Gord > > > > Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Ed, > > > > > > I used some Permatex blue silicone sealant for both my diesel & water > > > tanks. No leaks as yet. > > > > > > Carl > > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > One of my next tasks will be to bolt on the inspection hatches in the > > > > two keel diesel tanks. > > > > What is the preferred material for making gaskets for them? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18211|18211|2008-09-09 14:21:09|brentswain38|Go Green, Go Cruising|I heard recently that the average house uses 350 gallons of water per day. I use about a gallon a day. I calculated that with my ten watt light bulbs I was using 1/10,000th the amount of electrical energy of the average house. Since going for LEDs that draw 80 milliamps , it is now closer to 1/1,000,000th the use of the average house , and it comes mainly from my solar panel and wind generator. I heat with a wood stove from beach wood packed in my rowboat from 100 feet away, instead of oil that is shipped in tankers from the other side of the planet in many cases. The co2 output of a woodstove is the same as if the were left in the bush or on the beach to rot.Thus my heat source is carbon neutral. Thus living on a boat has one of the lowest environmental foot prints of any lifestyle. This is not he case if you leave your boat in a marina and live ashore in winter. So where are our tax breaks on buying a sailboat, sails, wind generators, solar panels , etc? Rather than support our lifestyle , big brother lays constant guilt trips on us and trys in every way to force us onto the treadmill and into a lifestyle with tens of thousands the environmental impact, while preaching sanctimoniously about ther proposals to save the environment. Time we called them on their hippocracy. Brent| 18212|18199|2008-09-09 15:09:52|Ben Okopnik|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|On Tue, Sep 09, 2008 at 11:19:13AM -0400, djackson99@... wrote: > > Does diesel react at all with acrylic? According to 3M's site (I looked at it a couple of days ago, don't have the URL handy right now), PC (polycarbonate) plastics do not react to diesel at all. Both my diesel and my water tanks have a pair of facing nipples welded on, one on the bottom and one on the top, and I'd been using "red tracer" hose on it as a sight glass; the diesel one turned brown after about two years and now requires a very bright flashlight behind it to see the level at all. I'm going to replace them with Lexan tubes clamped into a hose stub at either end; that's why I was checking. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18213|18199|2008-09-09 17:26:10|Gordon Schnell|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|Doug This is what Google has to say about Lexan. I have "soaked" pieces in gasoline and diesel with no apparent effect. Based on that, I concluded it would withstand diesel. I used it because I had all my ports cut from 1/2" Lexan and had offcuts left over. Time will tell! Gord *Lexan* (*LEXAN*) is a registered trademark for SABIC Innovative Plastics' (formerly General Electric Plastics) brand of highly durable polycarbonate resin thermoplastic intended to replace glass where the need for strength justifies its higher cost. It is a polycarbonate polymer produced by reacting Bisphenol A with carbonyl chloride, also known as phosgene . Lexan is the brand name for polycarbonate sheet in thicknesses from 0.75 mm (0.03 in) to 12 mm (0.48 in) and resin in a wide range of grades. Applications are mainly in three domains — building (glazing and domes ), industry (machine protection and fabricated parts) and communication and signage. djackson99@... wrote: > > > Does diesel react at all with acrylic? > > Thanks > Doug J > www.submarineboat. com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gordon Schnell > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 10:03 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] diesel tank hatch gasket > > Have you considered Lexan "windows" in place of the water and fuel tank > > "access" ports. You can see into the tank with a flashlight and also > > have access for cleaning, if necessary. > > Gord > > Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Ed, > > > > > > I used some Permatex blue silicone sealant for both my diesel & water > > > tanks. No leaks as yet. > > > > > > Carl > > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > One of my next tasks will be to bolt on the inspection hatches in the > > > > two keel diesel tanks. > > > > What is the preferred material for making gaskets for them? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18214|18211|2008-09-09 17:31:12|Gordon Schnell|Re: Go Green, Go Cruising|I agree with you on the "punishment" directed at "live aboards". There seems to be no grounds for the difficulties focused on live-aboards. It is a serious concern, to me, as I plan on joining the crowd very soon. Gord brentswain38 wrote: > > I heard recently that the average house uses 350 gallons of water per > day. I use about a gallon a day. I calculated that with my ten watt > light bulbs I was using 1/10,000th the amount of electrical energy of > the average house. Since going for LEDs that draw 80 milliamps , it > is now closer to 1/1,000,000th the use of the average house , and it > comes mainly from my solar panel and wind generator. > I heat with a wood stove from beach wood packed in my rowboat from > 100 feet away, instead of oil that is shipped in tankers from the > other side of the planet in many cases. The co2 output of a woodstove > is the same as if the were left in the bush or on the beach to > rot.Thus my heat source is carbon neutral. > Thus living on a boat has one of the lowest environmental foot > prints of any lifestyle. This is not he case if you leave your boat > in a marina and live ashore in winter. > So where are our tax breaks on buying a sailboat, sails, wind > generators, solar panels , etc? Rather than support our lifestyle , > big brother lays constant guilt trips on us and trys in every way to > force us onto the treadmill and into a lifestyle with tens of > thousands the environmental impact, while preaching sanctimoniously > about ther proposals to save the environment. > Time we called them on their hippocracy. > Brent > > | 18215|18199|2008-09-09 20:29:18|silascrosby|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|I have had an acrylic window in my diesel tanktop for 15 years with no discoloration or deterioration. I shine a light in as I am filling to know when to stop. I marked the baffle (which is visible through the window) to know roughly the amount left in the tank. For the tank gasket I used thin neoprene sheet(solid, not the wetsuit type) and some silicone gumpucky. I am about to clean my tank for the second time so will need to remove the large steel cover with the window in the middle. I met two boats on the west coast ( of Vancouver Is) this past June who had engine problems from clogged fuel filters. One of these boats also got seawater into his engine via the wet exhaust. Bad luck ? Steve| 18216|18211|2008-09-09 20:36:34|silascrosby|Re: Go Green, Go Cruising|Brent, I like that. 'Hippocracy' -must be a government run by hippopotamuses. Irritable,obese animals that lay around in swamps and are liable to trample you for no good reason. Sounds like Canada doesn't it ? Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I heard recently that the average house uses 350 gallons of water per > day. I use about a gallon a day. I calculated that with my ten watt > light bulbs I was using 1/10,000th the amount of electrical energy of > the average house. Since going for LEDs that draw 80 milliamps , it > is now closer to 1/1,000,000th the use of the average house , and it > comes mainly from my solar panel and wind generator. > I heat with a wood stove from beach wood packed in my rowboat from > 100 feet away, instead of oil that is shipped in tankers from the > other side of the planet in many cases. The co2 output of a woodstove > is the same as if the were left in the bush or on the beach to > rot.Thus my heat source is carbon neutral. > Thus living on a boat has one of the lowest environmental foot > prints of any lifestyle. This is not he case if you leave your boat > in a marina and live ashore in winter. > So where are our tax breaks on buying a sailboat, sails, wind > generators, solar panels , etc? Rather than support our lifestyle , > big brother lays constant guilt trips on us and trys in every way to > force us onto the treadmill and into a lifestyle with tens of > thousands the environmental impact, while preaching sanctimoniously > about ther proposals to save the environment. > Time we called them on their hippocracy. > Brent > | 18217|18217|2008-09-09 23:17:34|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Urgently Needed For Chief Instrument Engineer & Project Scheduler|We are PT. MBP Skill Indonesia, a National Company focusing on HR. Services, principally Consulting, Contracting, Training and Administration. We are currently inviting qualified Engineer for our Client to fill the position of Chief Instrument Engineer (MBP 2-211641) Qualifications desired: • Male / female min 30 years old • S1 Degree in Electrical/ Instrument Engineer • 5 years working experience in the field of Instrumentation engineer and Electrical design • Proven knowledge of Electrical Instrumentation equipment • Familiar with Programmable Logic Control (PLC) and Distributable Control System (DCS) and trouble shoot Commissioning • Ability to communicate in English • Willing to be assigned to the remote location • Contract for 6 months and will be extended after 6 month will depend on our Client actual needs and the work performance Project Scheduler (2211-68) Requirements: • Male/Female, 30 years old • Bachelor degree (S1) in Engineering • Has at least 5 years working experience similar experienced record in Construction Project or Industry • Familiar with Primavera software • Technical, detail oriented problem solver • Good English in both oral and writing An attractive remuneration package commensurate with experiences and qualifications will be offered to the qualified candidate Only qualified candidate should apply, please send your applications with CV and recent photograph to: resumes@...| 18218|1366|2008-09-09 23:22:35|Andrew Sullivan|Re: Double ender|Yes it is-that's why I was curious to see if anyone had already tried it. No point in trying it if I'm doomed to failure by the geometry. Do you mean all double enders hobby horse or origami double enders???? brentswain38 wrote: Thats a big stern to try pull to a point. Why would you bother. Double enders tend to hobby horse badly when trying to beat into a headsea. They have far less room in the stern than a transom hull. They don't make a lot of sense. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > I bought your plans for the 26 and I'm happy with them but I was thinking of a double ender-something like a NorSea27 w/ aft cabin. Looks good in cardboard but steel might be a little tougher to bend on the stern end if I tighten up the curve for a blunter end. I might try it, keep to your original lines so if I screw it up, I could just cut it off for a normal stern. > > brentswain38 wrote: Bruce Pfister started a 39 ft origami double ender on Quadra Island, > which Jack Carson bought in the bare hull stage, added beam and several > feet amidship to make her a 44 ft origami double ender. He is cruisng > Mexico on the boat "Bella Via "in the winters. > All you do is put a bow on both ends, then try remember which one > points foreward. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" > wrote: > > > > > > Has anyone built an origami double ender? I've seen the drawings in > the > > files section but I'm wondering if anyone has built one? Thx.Lugnuts > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18219|1366|2008-09-09 23:27:24|Andrew Sullivan|Re: Double ender|I had never heard that about the stern wave-good to know. ??? Colin Archer was a Scottsman! ????? Paul Wilson wrote: >>>Double enders tend to hobby horse badly when trying to beat into a headsea. They have far less room in the stern than a transom hull. They don't make a lot of sense. Right on. They also suck up a big stern wave when you are going fast. The water tends to get sucked up the stern and create a large quarter wave rather than break free like it does with a transom. Here in NZ, double enders are relatively hard to find. Rightly or wrongly, they are looked upon as "those heavy, slow American boats". This is not my quote, but I have heard it more than once. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18220|18220|2008-09-10 03:39:57|jim_both|Compatibility resource|Recent posts have suggested a compatiblity resource, like this one: http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/chemcomp.asp could be useful. With it, it is possible to rate, for examble, how compatible PVC tubing is with diesel fuel. Cheers, Jim| 18221|18199|2008-09-10 13:54:11|aaron riis|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|I have been pondering this too.  welded a small ten gallon tank under the forward part of the cockpit.  While a plastic inspection plate would double as a fuel gage, it would be a fire hazard.  maybe I could install a few ball valves on the top and bottom.  what do you use for a gasket? Aaron --- On Tue, 9/9/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: diesel tank hatch gasket To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 11:06 AM No problem. Acrylic is what they make Racor diesel filtre bowls out of. Under the floor, which is rarely lifted, there is no problem with scratching a tanktop window. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, djackson99@. .. wrote: > > > Does diesel react at all with acrylic? > > Thanks > Doug J > www.submarineboat. com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gordon Schnell > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 10:03 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] diesel tank hatch gasket > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered Lexan "windows" in place of the water and fuel tank > > "access" ports. You can see into the tank with a flashlight and also > > have access for cleaning, if necessary. > > Gord > > > > Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Ed, > > > > > > I used some Permatex blue silicone sealant for both my diesel & water > > > tanks. No leaks as yet. > > > > > > Carl > > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > One of my next tasks will be to bolt on the inspection hatches in the > > > > two keel diesel tanks. > > > > What is the preferred material for making gaskets for them? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18222|18199|2008-09-10 13:54:24|aaron riis|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|I have been pondering this too.  welded a small ten gallon tank under the forward part of the cockpit.  While a plastic inspection plate would double as a fuel gage, it would be a fire hazard.  maybe I could install a few ball valves on the top and bottom.  what do you use for a gasket? Aaron --- On Tue, 9/9/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: diesel tank hatch gasket To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 11:06 AM No problem. Acrylic is what they make Racor diesel filtre bowls out of. Under the floor, which is rarely lifted, there is no problem with scratching a tanktop window. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, djackson99@. .. wrote: > > > Does diesel react at all with acrylic? > > Thanks > Doug J > www.submarineboat. com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gordon Schnell > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 10:03 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] diesel tank hatch gasket > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered Lexan "windows" in place of the water and fuel tank > > "access" ports. You can see into the tank with a flashlight and also > > have access for cleaning, if necessary. > > Gord > > > > Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Ed, > > > > > > I used some Permatex blue silicone sealant for both my diesel & water > > > tanks. No leaks as yet. > > > > > > Carl > > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > One of my next tasks will be to bolt on the inspection hatches in the > > > > two keel diesel tanks. > > > > What is the preferred material for making gaskets for them? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18223|18199|2008-09-10 16:01:13|Paul Wilson|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|>>>I have been pondering this too. welded a small ten gallon tank under the forward part of the cockpit. While a plastic inspection plate would double as a fuel gage, it would be a fire hazard. maybe I could install a few ball valves on the top and bottom. what do you use for a gasket? Aaron I have day tank in the same place. I made a sight gauge using ¼ inch nylon tube on the front of my day tank. It uses plastic nylon tubing to see the fuel level. I guess you could use valves on the tubing to isolate the fuel if you were worried about the tubing and then just open the valve when you wanted to check the fuel level. Hmmmmmm……maybe a mod is in the works. Fire is always a worry on any day tank but I am not sure what you can do about it. Fuel lines are also vulnerable. You need flexible lines to any moving object like an engine so if they burnt you would have a fuel-fed fire. My fuel lines were originally copper and lasted about 10 years. I have seen it on other boats when copper fuel lines corrode and get a pin-hole so wanted get away from copper lines. I changed the lines to rubber fuel line with a braided shield but I don’t think it would last long in a fire. I am re-doing my fuel lines again where the steel braid has rusted and wondering what I should use. I have to run the fuel lines under the bilge since my engine is mounted forward under the sink. It’s routing is too twisty to go to galv pipe but SS small (5/16 inch?) diameter pipe and fittings might be a possibility. Is there such a thing as fire-proof or shielded flexible fuel line? I wish I remember what I used on the hatch of my main tank. I think it was Sikaflex but it may have been a product called Seal-once. It hasn’t leaked in 18 years. I will be opening it in a few weeks and will let you know what it was…. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18224|18199|2008-09-10 16:43:07|brentswain38|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|I have been using a ten gallon tank under the front end of the cockpit for 24 years and highly recommend it. I've seen too many people stopped by a broken lift pump. Gravity feed eliminates this problem. A small sump with a dain on it lets you drain any sediments and water out of it. Put the engine fuel outlet a bit above the tank bottom. 2 ft of 12 inch diameter stainless pipe works well. I don't think a fire would let the fuel out of the bilge tank even if it did melt the plastic. You could put a hinged stainless cover plate over it. You face far more likely problems if you can't see into your tank until there is a serious problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > I have been pondering this too.  welded a small ten gallon tank under the forward part of the cockpit.  While a plastic inspection plate would double as a fuel gage, it would be a fire hazard.  maybe I could install a few ball valves on the top and bottom.  what do you use for a gasket? > Aaron > > --- On Tue, 9/9/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: diesel tank hatch gasket > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 11:06 AM > > > > > > > No problem. Acrylic is what they make Racor diesel filtre bowls out > of. Under the floor, which is rarely lifted, there is no problem with > scratching a tanktop window. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, djackson99@ .. wrote: > > > > > > Does diesel react at all with acrylic? > > > > Thanks > > Doug J > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gordon Schnell > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 10:03 am > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] diesel tank hatch gasket > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered Lexan "windows" in place of the water and fuel > tank > > > > "access" ports. You can see into the tank with a flashlight and > also > > > > have access for cleaning, if necessary. > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ed, > > > > > > > > > > I used some Permatex blue silicone sealant for both my diesel & > water > > > > > tanks. No leaks as yet. > > > > > > > > > > Carl > > > > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > > > > > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of my next tasks will be to bolt on the inspection hatches > in the > > > > > > two keel diesel tanks. > > > > > > What is the preferred material for making gaskets for them? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18225|18225|2008-09-10 17:00:20|Carl Anderson|anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Just wondering if any on this group uses refrigeration on board. If you do please tell me what you use & how reliable it has been. I headed towards using a 12VDC type & a very well insulated box. Thanks, Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com| 18226|18225|2008-09-10 22:09:08|Paul Wilson|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Hi Carl, I use a 12 volt system and am very happy with it. It is an old Norcold unit using a Danfoss compressor like most 12 volt fridges. I have a well insulated box, minimum 6 inches of foam insulation and it is small, about 18 x 18 x 24 inches. All I did was buy a small used RV fridge from a junk yard and mount the evaporator unit from it into the ice box. I bought some refrigeration tubing the same diameter and length that was on the back of the RV fridge and soldered it onto a copper plate. I then epoxied this to the painted hull in the bilge. This condenser unit is used instead of the fan and coil assembly that came with the RV fridge. The condenser unit and the compressor are about 5 feet from the location of the evaporator unit. With this method, there is no fan running and it acts like a water cooled unit without the water pump or plumbing. It has worked great even in tropical lagoons where the water gets over 29 C (84 F) and the air temp can get over 35 C (95 F). A standard condenser unit with a fan mounted in a hot locker somewhere will be far less efficient than a water cooled unit. The only improvement I can think of would be a 12 volt system using a more sophisticated electronic unit that senses when the engine or voltage is high and runs extra hard to bring the temp down and take advantage of the running engine. By the way, when I thought of doing this, a refrigerator "expert" told me it would never work. I had read a few books about refrigeration and couldn't see why it wouldn't. I tried it anyway since I had little money and had nothing to lose. It has now been maintenance free for over 15 years. I previously had experience with an engine driven compressor unit and they have to be topped up once in awhile since the shaft seals leak eventually. They are also much more complicated (expensive) with valves and clutches that can fail. With the engine driven unit you will have to run your engine almost every day, even at the dock, unless you have a 12 volt unit as well. In my opinion, a simple, hermetically sealed unit like a 12 volt system uses is the way to go. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:00 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] anyone use refrigeration onboard? Just wondering if any on this group uses refrigeration on board. If you do please tell me what you use & how reliable it has been. I headed towards using a 12VDC type & a very well insulated box. Thanks, Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: 9/10/2008 6:00 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18227|18225|2008-09-10 22:33:28|Gordon Schnell|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Carl I have installed an engine-driven compressor/coldplate in a SS box with 6" of spray insulation. As a backup, I am using a 12V compressor/coldplate I "inherited", in the same box. I haven't got an appreciable hours on either yet, so I can't speak to that. Gord Carl Anderson wrote: > > Just wondering if any on this group uses refrigeration on board. > > If you do please tell me what you use & how reliable it has been. > > I headed towards using a 12VDC type & a very well insulated box. > > Thanks, > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > | 18228|18225|2008-09-10 22:37:38|T & D Cain|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Good post Paul. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2008 11:39 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] anyone use refrigeration onboard? Hi Carl, I use a 12 volt system and am very happy with it. It is an old Norcold unit using a Danfoss compressor like most 12 volt fridges. I have a well insulated box, minimum 6 inches of foam insulation and it is small, about 18 x 18 x 24 inches. All I did was buy a small used RV fridge from a junk yard and mount the evaporator unit from it into the ice box. I bought some refrigeration tubing the same diameter and length that was on the back of the RV fridge and soldered it onto a copper plate. I then epoxied this to the painted hull in the bilge. This condenser unit is used instead of the fan and coil assembly that came with the RV fridge. The condenser unit and the compressor are about 5 feet from the location of the evaporator unit. With this method, there is no fan running and it acts like a water cooled unit without the water pump or plumbing. It has worked great even in tropical lagoons where the water gets over 29 C (84 F) and the air temp can get over 35 C (95 F). A standard condenser unit with a fan mounted in a hot locker somewhere will be far less efficient than a water cooled unit. The only improvement I can think of would be a 12 volt system using a more sophisticated electronic unit that senses when the engine or voltage is high and runs extra hard to bring the temp down and take advantage of the running engine. By the way, when I thought of doing this, a refrigerator "expert" told me it would never work. I had read a few books about refrigeration and couldn't see why it wouldn't. I tried it anyway since I had little money and had nothing to lose. It has now been maintenance free for over 15 years. I previously had experience with an engine driven compressor unit and they have to be topped up once in awhile since the shaft seals leak eventually. They are also much more complicated (expensive) with valves and clutches that can fail. With the engine driven unit you will have to run your engine almost every day, even at the dock, unless you have a 12 volt unit as well. In my opinion, a simple, hermetically sealed unit like a 12 volt system uses is the way to go. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18229|18199|2008-09-11 00:15:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 08:01:08AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Is there such a thing as fire-proof or shielded flexible fuel line? One thing I've seen that should be fairly good for that is stainless tubing with a loop in it; as I recall, it was used for injector lines on the engine where I saw it. There's no rigid mechanical connection, so that it should prevent vibration-caused problems, and it's not likely to be prone to pinholes. Fire, well, it seems to me that a good automatic Halon system should put things out long before it burns through SS tubing. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18230|18225|2008-09-11 02:14:34|Paul Wilson|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|I should add that I have repaired a few of the electronic units on 12V fridges for people over the years. Sometimes there is absolutely nothing wrong with the electronics except the connectors they use are crap. A lot of them use tinned spade connectors that don't belong anywhere on a boat. I have removed the spade lugs and direct soldered the wires to the board and then away you go. Also the connector to the compressor itself can get a little iffy... Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] anyone use refrigeration onboard? Hi Carl, I use a 12 volt system and am very happy with it. It is an old Norcold unit using a Danfoss compressor like most 12 volt fridges. I have a well insulated box, minimum 6 inches of foam insulation and it is small, about 18 x 18 x 24 inches. All I did was buy a small used RV fridge from a junk yard and mount the evaporator unit from it into the ice box. I bought some refrigeration tubing the same diameter and length that was on the back of the RV fridge and soldered it onto a copper plate. I then epoxied this to the painted hull in the bilge. This condenser unit is used instead of the fan and coil assembly that came with the RV fridge. The condenser unit and the compressor are about 5 feet from the location of the evaporator unit. With this method, there is no fan running and it acts like a water cooled unit without the water pump or plumbing. It has worked great even in tropical lagoons where the water gets over 29 C (84 F) and the air temp can get over 35 C (95 F). A standard condenser unit with a fan mounted in a hot locker somewhere will be far less efficient than a water cooled unit. The only improvement I can think of would be a 12 volt system using a more sophisticated electronic unit that senses when the engine or voltage is high and runs extra hard to bring the temp down and take advantage of the running engine. By the way, when I thought of doing this, a refrigerator "expert" told me it would never work. I had read a few books about refrigeration and couldn't see why it wouldn't. I tried it anyway since I had little money and had nothing to lose. It has now been maintenance free for over 15 years. I previously had experience with an engine driven compressor unit and they have to be topped up once in awhile since the shaft seals leak eventually. They are also much more complicated (expensive) with valves and clutches that can fail. With the engine driven unit you will have to run your engine almost every day, even at the dock, unless you have a 12 volt unit as well. In my opinion, a simple, hermetically sealed unit like a 12 volt system uses is the way to go. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:00 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] anyone use refrigeration onboard? Just wondering if any on this group uses refrigeration on board. If you do please tell me what you use & how reliable it has been. I headed towards using a 12VDC type & a very well insulated box. Thanks, Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: 9/10/2008 6:00 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: 9/10/2008 6:00 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18231|18199|2008-09-11 03:28:02|sae140|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Fire is always a worry on any day tank but I am not sure what you can do > about it. Many moons ago I inherited some commercial buildings fitted with a gravity-fed oil burner. The insurance guy was a bit keen to check that the installation had been fitted with a thermal cut-out valve to kill the supply in the event of fire. It was about the same size as an in-line filter. Apparently these come in both fusable and re-settable versions. Regret no further info - don't even know what the right name is for these gizmos. Colin| 18232|18232|2008-09-11 07:31:37|jaynepoole53|Freebies 11th September|Dear Members Everyone loves something for nothing, and you are JUST 2 CLICKS away from a page FULL of the TODAY'S LATEST FREE-STUFF 1.Click the text link below and it will take you to a new Freebie Group (it is NOT necessary to join it to get to the new freebie page!) 2. THEN simply click on the BIG RED TEXT LINK just below the home page PICTURE and you will be taken INSTANTLY to a page full of TODAYS NEWEST FREEBIES! Click Here to check out the NEW page of Freebies Take care and have a great week! Note: If you have a problem accessing the group, simply type: (www.) freebietelegraph (.com) into your browser (without the brackets and spaces!) and you will also be taken directly to the new freebie page. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18233|18199|2008-09-11 07:56:18|audeojude|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|I seem to remember back in the day when my brother and I were working on cars as teens that he bought some sort of flexible stainless braided line. Might have just been someone was already talking about. Stainless braid around rubber.. take a look in some of the auto performance magazines. > > Is there such a thing as fire-proof or shielded flexible fuel line? > > I wish I remember what I used on the hatch of my main tank. I think it was > Sikaflex but it may have been a product called Seal-once. It hasn't leaked > in 18 years. I will be opening it in a few weeks and will let you know what > it was…. > > Cheers, Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18234|18199|2008-09-11 08:26:01|audeojude|Re: diesel tank hatch gasket|just a quick sampling of products available http://www.hosecraftusa.com/model.php?modelUID=225 http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS/757155/10002/-1 http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS/752578/10002/-1 http://www.jegs.com/p/Earl%27s/749410/10002/-1 http://www.jegs.com/p/Earl%27s/749414/10002/-1 http://www.clinehose.com/products.html > > Is there such a thing as fire-proof or shielded flexible fuel line? > > I wish I remember what I used on the hatch of my main tank. I think it was > Sikaflex but it may have been a product called Seal-once. It hasn't leaked > in 18 years. I will be opening it in a few weeks and will let you know what > it was…. > > Cheers, Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18235|502|2008-09-11 09:50:05|prairiemaidca|Refrigeration|Hi All; Timely subject as I'm just doing the preliminary stuff for my refrigerator unit(12volt nova-cool) I'm planning to make a box out of plywood and glass the inside. Does anyone have ideas for an epoxy paint that would be food grade safe and suitable for this application? Thanks Martin..| 18236|18225|2008-09-11 10:07:51|Gordon Schnell|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Paul Gord here in Vancouver. Thanks for "thinking out of the box". I'm going to take your lead and do the same with my 12V refrig system. As it turns out, the only bare hull in the boat is the bilge and it less than 2' from the freezer box. Great idea!! Gord Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Carl, > > I use a 12 volt system and am very happy with it. It is an old Norcold > unit > using a Danfoss compressor like most 12 volt fridges. I have a well > insulated box, minimum 6 inches of foam insulation and it is small, > about 18 > x 18 x 24 inches. All I did was buy a small used RV fridge from a junk > yard and mount the evaporator unit from it into the ice box. I bought some > refrigeration tubing the same diameter and length that was on the back of > the RV fridge and soldered it onto a copper plate. I then epoxied this to > the painted hull in the bilge. This condenser unit is used instead of the > fan and coil assembly that came with the RV fridge. The condenser unit and > the compressor are about 5 feet from the location of the evaporator unit. > With this method, there is no fan running and it acts like a water cooled > unit without the water pump or plumbing. It has worked great even in > tropical lagoons where the water gets over 29 C (84 F) and the air > temp can > get over 35 C (95 F). A standard condenser unit with a fan mounted in > a hot > locker somewhere will be far less efficient than a water cooled unit. The > only improvement I can think of would be a 12 volt system using a more > sophisticated electronic unit that senses when the engine or voltage > is high > and runs extra hard to bring the temp down and take advantage of the > running > engine. > > By the way, when I thought of doing this, a refrigerator "expert" told > me it > would never work. I had read a few books about refrigeration and couldn't > see why it wouldn't. I tried it anyway since I had little money and had > nothing to lose. It has now been maintenance free for over 15 years. > > I previously had experience with an engine driven compressor unit and they > have to be topped up once in awhile since the shaft seals leak eventually. > They are also much more complicated (expensive) with valves and clutches > that can fail. With the engine driven unit you will have to run your > engine > almost every day, even at the dock, unless you have a 12 volt unit as > well. > In my opinion, a simple, hermetically sealed unit like a 12 volt > system uses > is the way to go. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of Carl Anderson > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:00 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] anyone use refrigeration onboard? > > Just wondering if any on this group uses refrigeration on board. > > If you do please tell me what you use & how reliable it has been. > > I headed towards using a 12VDC type & a very well insulated box. > > Thanks, > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: 9/10/2008 > 6:00 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18237|18225|2008-09-11 13:18:56|silascrosby|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Paul, do you know how many amps your unit draws and how long per day you run it to keep it cool in tropical waters ? Also ,do you have freezer capacity ? Does your solar capacity meet your fridge needs ? Thanks. Steve p.s. I have been considering a Waeco or Engel unit. Timo om 'Sisu'(Swain 36) just installed an Engel in New Zealand. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Paul > Gord here in Vancouver. Thanks for "thinking out of the box". I'm going > to take your lead and do the same with my 12V refrig system. As it turns > out, the only bare hull in the boat is the bilge and it less than 2' > from the freezer box. Great idea!! > Gord > > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Carl, > > > > I use a 12 volt system and am very happy with it. It is an old Norcold > > unit > > using a Danfoss compressor like most 12 volt fridges. I have a well > > insulated box, minimum 6 inches of foam insulation and it is small, > > about 18 > > x 18 x 24 inches. All I did was buy a small used RV fridge from a junk > > yard and mount the evaporator unit from it into the ice box. I bought some > > refrigeration tubing the same diameter and length that was on the back of > > the RV fridge and soldered it onto a copper plate. I then epoxied this to > > the painted hull in the bilge. This condenser unit is used instead of the > > fan and coil assembly that came with the RV fridge. The condenser unit and > > the compressor are about 5 feet from the location of the evaporator unit. > > With this method, there is no fan running and it acts like a water cooled > > unit without the water pump or plumbing. It has worked great even in > > tropical lagoons where the water gets over 29 C (84 F) and the air > > temp can > > get over 35 C (95 F). A standard condenser unit with a fan mounted in > > a hot > > locker somewhere will be far less efficient than a water cooled unit. The > > only improvement I can think of would be a 12 volt system using a more > > sophisticated electronic unit that senses when the engine or voltage > > is high > > and runs extra hard to bring the temp down and take advantage of the > > running > > engine. > > > > By the way, when I thought of doing this, a refrigerator "expert" told > > me it > > would never work. I had read a few books about refrigeration and couldn't > > see why it wouldn't. I tried it anyway since I had little money and had > > nothing to lose. It has now been maintenance free for over 15 years. > > > > I previously had experience with an engine driven compressor unit and they > > have to be topped up once in awhile since the shaft seals leak eventually. > > They are also much more complicated (expensive) with valves and clutches > > that can fail. With the engine driven unit you will have to run your > > engine > > almost every day, even at the dock, unless you have a 12 volt unit as > > well. > > In my opinion, a simple, hermetically sealed unit like a 12 volt > > system uses > > is the way to go. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > ] On > > Behalf Of Carl Anderson > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:00 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] anyone use refrigeration onboard? > > > > Just wondering if any on this group uses refrigeration on board. > > > > If you do please tell me what you use & how reliable it has been. > > > > I headed towards using a 12VDC type & a very well insulated box. > > > > Thanks, > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: 9/10/2008 > > 6:00 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 18238|18238|2008-09-11 14:11:28|theboilerflue|boat painting|Carl and kate what type of paint did you two use over top of the MC tar and what bottom paint? Did you have to apply while the tar was still soft or did you let it harden?| 18239|18239|2008-09-11 14:17:01|theboilerflue|buffing sandy lifelines|and what did you use to buff out the roughend life lines from the sandblasting?| 18240|18238|2008-09-11 16:24:54|Carl Anderson|Re: boat painting|Haidan, We used some Wasser intermediate coating (turns a very bright yellow over the tar) for two coats & then used some Wasser MC Luster for the finish paint. Carl theboilerflue wrote: > > > Carl and kate what type of paint did you two use over top of the MC tar > and what bottom paint? Did you have to apply while the tar was still > soft or did you let it harden? > > | 18241|18239|2008-09-11 16:27:02|Carl Anderson|Re: buffing sandy lifelines|Haidan, We used a "flapper" sanding disk. There are also some types of disks that use velcro on a rubber disk. This is what we are going to use for the final polishing of all our stainless. Carl theboilerflue wrote: > > > and what did you use to buff out the roughend life lines from the > sandblasting? > > | 18242|18225|2008-09-11 19:14:16|Carl Anderson|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Steve, I have a book about 12 VDC refrigeration written by Kollman that has everything you would want to know about the subject. His web site has a lot of info as well and the address is: http://www.kollmann-marine.com/ go there & read everything on that site and you will get a good understanding about what to do & also what to avoid. He hold the Engel units in very high regard as they will work as a true freezer. I'm going for the Alder Barbour (Waeco) unit but the most important item is getting enough insulation! You need R-30 if you want to have a freezer work in the tropics. Hope that this helps. Carl silascrosby wrote: > > > Paul, do you know how many amps your unit draws and how long per day > you run it to keep it cool in tropical waters ? Also ,do you have > freezer capacity ? Does your solar capacity meet your fridge needs ? > Thanks. Steve > p.s. I have been considering a Waeco or Engel unit. Timo > om 'Sisu'(Swain 36) just installed an Engel in New Zealand. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Gordon Schnell > wrote: > > > > Paul > > Gord here in Vancouver. Thanks for "thinking out of the box". I'm > going > > to take your lead and do the same with my 12V refrig system. As it > turns > > out, the only bare hull in the boat is the bilge and it less than > 2' > > from the freezer box. Great idea!! > > Gord > > > > > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Hi Carl, > > > > > > I use a 12 volt system and am very happy with it. It is an old > Norcold > > > unit > > > using a Danfoss compressor like most 12 volt fridges. I have a > well > > > insulated box, minimum 6 inches of foam insulation and it is > small, > > > about 18 > > > x 18 x 24 inches. All I did was buy a small used RV fridge from a > junk > > > yard and mount the evaporator unit from it into the ice box. I > bought some > > > refrigeration tubing the same diameter and length that was on the > back of > > > the RV fridge and soldered it onto a copper plate. I then epoxied > this to > > > the painted hull in the bilge. This condenser unit is used > instead of the > > > fan and coil assembly that came with the RV fridge. The condenser > unit and > > > the compressor are about 5 feet from the location of the > evaporator unit. > > > With this method, there is no fan running and it acts like a > water cooled > > > unit without the water pump or plumbing. It has worked great even > in > > > tropical lagoons where the water gets over 29 C (84 F) and the > air > > > temp can > > > get over 35 C (95 F). A standard condenser unit with a fan > mounted in > > > a hot > > > locker somewhere will be far less efficient than a water cooled > unit. The > > > only improvement I can think of would be a 12 volt system using a > more > > > sophisticated electronic unit that senses when the engine or > voltage > > > is high > > > and runs extra hard to bring the temp down and take advantage of > the > > > running > > > engine. > > > > > > By the way, when I thought of doing this, a refrigerator "expert" > told > > > me it > > > would never work. I had read a few books about refrigeration and > couldn't > > > see why it wouldn't. I tried it anyway since I had little money > and had > > > nothing to lose. It has now been maintenance free for over 15 > years. > > > > > > I previously had experience with an engine driven compressor unit > and they > > > have to be topped up once in awhile since the shaft seals leak > eventually. > > > They are also much more complicated (expensive) with valves and > clutches > > > that can fail. With the engine driven unit you will have to run > your > > > engine > > > almost every day, even at the dock, unless you have a 12 volt > unit as > > > well. > > > In my opinion, a simple, hermetically sealed unit like a 12 volt > > > system uses > > > is the way to go. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > ] On > > > Behalf Of Carl Anderson > > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:00 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [origamiboats] anyone use refrigeration onboard? > > > > > > Just wondering if any on this group uses refrigeration on board. > > > > > > If you do please tell me what you use & how reliable it has been. > > > > > > I headed towards using a 12VDC type & a very well insulated box. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Carl > > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: > 9/10/2008 > > > 6:00 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 18243|18225|2008-09-11 21:01:10|Paul Wilson|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Hi Steve, The fridge draws about 5 amps when its running and runs about 50 percent of the time while in the tropics. I am not sure on that since I never really timed it but if you figured 100 amp hours over 24 hours for the fridge, that would probably be a good figure to go by and give you a good safety factor for design. I noticed when I came to NZ and the water is cooler that it ran a lot less. Because it runs depending on the setting of the thermostat, it never gets shut off. I had two 75 watt panels. It’s a long story, but I made a wind generator out of a tail rotor from a helicopter….it worked well but was kind of scary. It disappeared one night in a storm in Suvarov lagoon and smashed one of the panels on its way to Japan. After that, one of the 75 watt panels was only putting out about 2 amps. They were never enough for the fridge so I had to run the engine for and hour or so every second day, on average. I have a 100 amp alternator. I am refitting the boat now and not using it. My plan is to have a total of 3 panels on the rear arch where they get the sun but not the shadows. I would get more panels if I could figure out where to put them. I am not a fan of wind generators :). I have more accurate measurements of the icebox now…..it is smaller than I thought. Inside dimensions are 31 inch long, 14 inch wide and 17 inch deep. 6 inch insulation on sides and bottom and 5 ½ inch on hatches. There is a removal divider in the middle to make a freezer section and a fridge section. The divider is just a piece of Styrofoam 2 inches thick. A gap of about a half inch allows the colder air in the freezer section to spill over into the fridge section. The condenser unit in the freezer section is the aluminum box from the old RV fridge as described in my previous post. Its dimensions are 6 inches by 12 inches by 8 inches deep. We usually throw any meat into this box and it will stay frozen solid. The rest of the freezer will keep things frozen, but only just. Is the Timo who has Sisu in NZ the same Timo that lost his yacht Ciru in 2005? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1 &objectid=10330746 If it is the same Timo, I met him several times in Fiji and Samoa. I was aware of a Swain being sold in NZ a while ago. I think its name was Island Breeze. Has it been renamed to Sisu? Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of silascrosby Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:19 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard? Paul, do you know how many amps your unit draws and how long per day you run it to keep it cool in tropical waters ? Also ,do you have freezer capacity ? Does your solar capacity meet your fridge needs ? Thanks. Steve p.s. I have been considering a Waeco or Engel unit. Timo om 'Sisu'(Swain 36) just installed an Engel in New Zealand. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Paul > Gord here in Vancouver. Thanks for "thinking out of the box". I'm going > to take your lead and do the same with my 12V refrig system. As it turns > out, the only bare hull in the boat is the bilge and it less than 2' > from the freezer box. Great idea!! > Gord > > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Carl, > > > > I use a 12 volt system and am very happy with it. It is an old Norcold > > unit > > using a Danfoss compressor like most 12 volt fridges. I have a well > > insulated box, minimum 6 inches of foam insulation and it is small, > > about 18 > > x 18 x 24 inches. All I did was buy a small used RV fridge from a junk > > yard and mount the evaporator unit from it into the ice box. I bought some > > refrigeration tubing the same diameter and length that was on the back of > > the RV fridge and soldered it onto a copper plate. I then epoxied this to > > the painted hull in the bilge. This condenser unit is used instead of the > > fan and coil assembly that came with the RV fridge. The condenser unit and > > the compressor are about 5 feet from the location of the evaporator unit. > > With this method, there is no fan running and it acts like a water cooled > > unit without the water pump or plumbing. It has worked great even in > > tropical lagoons where the water gets over 29 C (84 F) and the air > > temp can > > get over 35 C (95 F). A standard condenser unit with a fan mounted in > > a hot > > locker somewhere will be far less efficient than a water cooled unit. The > > only improvement I can think of would be a 12 volt system using a more > > sophisticated electronic unit that senses when the engine or voltage > > is high > > and runs extra hard to bring the temp down and take advantage of the > > running > > engine. > > > > By the way, when I thought of doing this, a refrigerator "expert" told > > me it > > would never work. I had read a few books about refrigeration and couldn't > > see why it wouldn't. I tried it anyway since I had little money and had > > nothing to lose. It has now been maintenance free for over 15 years. > > > > I previously had experience with an engine driven compressor unit and they > > have to be topped up once in awhile since the shaft seals leak eventually. > > They are also much more complicated (expensive) with valves and clutches > > that can fail. With the engine driven unit you will have to run your > > engine > > almost every day, even at the dock, unless you have a 12 volt unit as > > well. > > In my opinion, a simple, hermetically sealed unit like a 12 volt > > system uses > > is the way to go. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > ] On > > Behalf Of Carl Anderson > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:00 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [origamiboats] anyone use refrigeration onboard? > > > > Just wondering if any on this group uses refrigeration on board. > > > > If you do please tell me what you use & how reliable it has been. > > > > I headed towards using a 12VDC type & a very well insulated box. > > > > Thanks, > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: 9/10/2008 > > 6:00 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.20/1666 - Release Date: 9/11/2008 7:03 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18244|18225|2008-09-11 22:46:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 01:01:00PM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Steve, > > The fridge draws about 5 amps when its running and runs about 50 percent of > the time while in the tropics. I am not sure on that since I never really > timed it but if you figured 100 amp hours over 24 hours for the fridge, that > would probably be a good figure to go by and give you a good safety factor > for design. When I was running a fridge on on board [1], those are exactly the figures that I got: 4.7A about 50% of the time, roughly 100Ah/day. It improved significantly - would only run about 25% of the time - when I put 2" of Styrofoam all around it. [1] This was a unit called a "Minus 40" made by a South African company; a really impressive gadget that would start making frost crystals on the inside within 3 minutes from being hooked up to 12V. I wrecked the damned thing after about three years by a chain of bad actions (no excuse, but I was going through a really bad time and not paying much attention to anything except one specific set of problems): not replacing my voltmeter/ammeter when they died, then not noticing that my batteries had deteriorated and weren't holding juice worth a damn, all the while continuing to run the fridge - which was very, very unhappy with low voltage. Replacing the compressor was going to be $475... so I got rid of it. Pretty sad; it was a good piece of equipment. > It’s a long story, but I > made a wind generator out of a tail rotor from a helicopter….it worked well > but was kind of scary. It disappeared one night in a storm in Suvarov > lagoon and smashed one of the panels on its way to Japan. Y'know, this isn't the first time I've heard this; it seems that wind generators don't like competition. :) A good friend of mine who had built a Piver trimaran had a "Four Winds" wind gen and two brand-new panels that were mounted one on each hull. One day, in rough weather, the wind gen prop snapped its shaft, fell and stuck a blade through one of the panels, took one big bounce across the boat, stuck a blade through the *other* panel, and bounced overboard. Jerry didn't have a generator on his outboards, so he lost all of his power-making capacity in about two seconds... had a hell of a time limping to his next port of call. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18245|18225|2008-09-12 12:50:30|silascrosby|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Paul, excellent information. Thanks. I have two 85 watt Kyocera panels on the way from Affordable Solar in Arizona. I don't think they will be quite enough to power a fridge on their own but I will do more calculating. Like you I do not want to 'pave ' the whole boat with panels.My 48 watt Siemens panel died last month after a single 'square' finished corroding out- I guess they are in series. This took 20 yrs after we bought it in Suva. It still measures 17+ volts but only ~.2 amps so I think it is done. Timo is a Finnish electrician/skier/climber from Campbell River who left BC two years ago. Last e-mail said that he and Linda were in New Caledonia. They plan to lay over in Darwin for quite some time to replenish funds etc.He built 'Sisu' about 6-8 yrs ago in Campbell River. Island Breeze was Jack Carson's 36 that he circumnavigated on, arriving back in Comox in about '94. Brent probably knows more about the subsequent owner(s). Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > The fridge draws about 5 amps when its running and runs about 50 percent of > the time while in the tropics. I am not sure on that since I never really > timed it but if you figured 100 amp hours over 24 hours for the fridge, that > would probably be a good figure to go by and give you a good safety factor > for design. I noticed when I came to NZ and the water is cooler that it ran > a lot less. Because it runs depending on the setting of the thermostat, it > never gets shut off. I had two 75 watt panels. It's a long story, but I > made a wind generator out of a tail rotor from a helicopter….it worked well > but was kind of scary. It disappeared one night in a storm in Suvarov > lagoon and smashed one of the panels on its way to Japan. After that, one > of the 75 watt panels was only putting out about 2 amps. They were never > enough for the fridge so I had to run the engine for and hour or so every > second day, on average. I have a 100 amp alternator. > > I am refitting the boat now and not using it. My plan is to have a total of > 3 panels on the rear arch where they get the sun but not the shadows. I > would get more panels if I could figure out where to put them. I am not a > fan of wind generators :). > > I have more accurate measurements of the icebox now…..it is smaller than I > thought. Inside dimensions are 31 inch long, 14 inch wide and 17 inch > deep. 6 inch insulation on sides and bottom and 5 ½ inch on hatches. There > is a removal divider in the middle to make a freezer section and a fridge > section. The divider is just a piece of Styrofoam 2 inches thick. A gap of > about a half inch allows the colder air in the freezer section to spill over > into the fridge section. The condenser unit in the freezer section is the > aluminum box from the old RV fridge as described in my previous post. Its > dimensions are 6 inches by 12 inches by 8 inches deep. We usually throw any > meat into this box and it will stay frozen solid. The rest of the freezer > will keep things frozen, but only just. > > Is the Timo who has Sisu in NZ the same Timo that lost his yacht Ciru in > 2005? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1 > > &objectid=10330746 > > If it is the same Timo, I met him several times in Fiji and Samoa. I was > aware of a Swain being sold in NZ a while ago. I think its name was Island > Breeze. Has it been renamed to Sisu? > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of silascrosby > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:19 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard? > > Paul, do you know how many amps your unit draws and how long per day > you run it to keep it cool in tropical waters ? Also ,do you have > freezer capacity ? Does your solar capacity meet your fridge needs ? > Thanks. Steve > p.s. I have been considering a Waeco or Engel unit. Timo > om 'Sisu'(Swain 36) just installed an Engel in New Zealand. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Gordon Schnell > wrote: > > > > Paul > > Gord here in Vancouver. Thanks for "thinking out of the box". I'm > going > > to take your lead and do the same with my 12V refrig system. As it > turns > > out, the only bare hull in the boat is the bilge and it less than > 2' > > from the freezer box. Great idea!! > > Gord > > > > > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Hi Carl, > > > > > > I use a 12 volt system and am very happy with it. It is an old > Norcold > > > unit > > > using a Danfoss compressor like most 12 volt fridges. I have a > well > > > insulated box, minimum 6 inches of foam insulation and it is > small, > > > about 18 > > > x 18 x 24 inches. All I did was buy a small used RV fridge from a > junk > > > yard and mount the evaporator unit from it into the ice box. I > bought some > > > refrigeration tubing the same diameter and length that was on the > back of > > > the RV fridge and soldered it onto a copper plate. I then epoxied > this to > > > the painted hull in the bilge. This condenser unit is used > instead of the > > > fan and coil assembly that came with the RV fridge. The condenser > unit and > > > the compressor are about 5 feet from the location of the > evaporator unit. > > > With this method, there is no fan running and it acts like a > water cooled > > > unit without the water pump or plumbing. It has worked great even > in > > > tropical lagoons where the water gets over 29 C (84 F) and the > air > > > temp can > > > get over 35 C (95 F). A standard condenser unit with a fan > mounted in > > > a hot > > > locker somewhere will be far less efficient than a water cooled > unit. The > > > only improvement I can think of would be a 12 volt system using a > more > > > sophisticated electronic unit that senses when the engine or > voltage > > > is high > > > and runs extra hard to bring the temp down and take advantage of > the > > > running > > > engine. > > > > > > By the way, when I thought of doing this, a refrigerator "expert" > told > > > me it > > > would never work. I had read a few books about refrigeration and > couldn't > > > see why it wouldn't. I tried it anyway since I had little money > and had > > > nothing to lose. It has now been maintenance free for over 15 > years. > > > > > > I previously had experience with an engine driven compressor unit > and they > > > have to be topped up once in awhile since the shaft seals leak > eventually. > > > They are also much more complicated (expensive) with valves and > clutches > > > that can fail. With the engine driven unit you will have to run > your > > > engine > > > almost every day, even at the dock, unless you have a 12 volt > unit as > > > well. > > > In my opinion, a simple, hermetically sealed unit like a 12 volt > > > system uses > > > is the way to go. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > ] On > > > Behalf Of Carl Anderson > > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:00 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [origamiboats] anyone use refrigeration onboard? > > > > > > Just wondering if any on this group uses refrigeration on board. > > > > > > If you do please tell me what you use & how reliable it has been. > > > > > > I headed towards using a 12VDC type & a very well insulated box. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Carl > > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: > 9/10/2008 > > > 6:00 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.20/1666 - Release Date: 9/11/2008 > 7:03 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18246|1366|2008-09-12 14:45:13|brentswain38|Re: Double ender|Most fine ended double enders hobby horse. When a transom boat pitches the submerged aft ends increase drastically in buoyancy , shifting the centre of buoyancy well aft. Thus pitching has to lift the bow out rather than just rock it. The sudden build up of buoyancy aft acts like a great damper on hobby horsing. With a double ender, lack of this rapid buildup in buoyancy aft lets her just keep on rythmicly rocking. When she pitches, the centre of buoyancy doesn't shift much. The only exception are the wide rounded sterns that Perry designs have , who's full and wide aft lines more closely resemble the buildup of buoyancy of a trannsom sterned boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > Yes it is-that's why I was curious to see if anyone had already tried it. No point in trying it if I'm doomed to failure by the geometry. Do you mean all double enders hobby horse or origami double enders???? > > brentswain38 wrote: Thats a big stern to try pull to a point. Why would you bother. Double > enders tend to hobby horse badly when trying to beat into a headsea. > They have far less room in the stern than a transom hull. > They don't make a lot of sense. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Sullivan > wrote: > > > > I bought your plans for the 26 and I'm happy with them but I was > thinking of a double ender-something like a NorSea27 w/ aft cabin. > Looks good in cardboard but steel might be a little tougher to bend on > the stern end if I tighten up the curve for a blunter end. I might try > it, keep to your original lines so if I screw it up, I could just cut > it off for a normal stern. > > > > brentswain38 wrote: Bruce Pfister > started a 39 ft origami double ender on Quadra Island, > > which Jack Carson bought in the bare hull stage, added beam and several > > feet amidship to make her a 44 ft origami double ender. He is cruisng > > Mexico on the boat "Bella Via "in the winters. > > All you do is put a bow on both ends, then try remember which one > > points foreward. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Has anyone built an origami double ender? I've seen the drawings in > > the > > > files section but I'm wondering if anyone has built one? Thx.Lugnuts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18247|18225|2008-09-13 11:40:08|mark hamill|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|"A refrgerator is something a Canadian uses to keep his saurkraut 30 * warmer than the outside temperature." I think the Pardey's did a survey of the contents of peoples fridges just to see what was in them and the upshot was that all seemed to be underutilized and contained things that really didn't need to be cooled- anyways that is how I remember it. I work at a bareboat yacht charter company and the clients use the fridges and freezers because they are on vacation for one week and take luxury and typical home foods that require fridges. Are you going to use mayonaise and margarine in the tropics? Perhaps one could make less at dinner and not have leftovers that need refrigeration??| 18248|18225|2008-09-13 14:05:06|brentswain38|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|I built an icebox on my last boat. Used it twice in 10 years. Keeping a fridge going, and supplied with energy is one of the major problems cruisers experience , until they get rid of it. Mayonaise? Mix a can of sweetened condensed milk with a half can of vinegar and a teaspoon of mustard and you have mayo that needs no refrigeration. Can all your meat and fish and you not only have the tenderest meat in the fleet, but you don't have to worry about the fridge crapping out and losing the works. Ditto anyhting else you want to keep. Far les work and money to find alternatives and change your diet to things that keep, than to keep a fridge going. Accept he fat that things change when you move aboard . Easier than fighting the reality. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > "A refrgerator is something a Canadian uses to keep his saurkraut 30 * > warmer than the outside temperature." > I think the Pardey's did a survey of the contents of peoples fridges > just to see what was in them and the upshot was that all seemed to be > underutilized and contained things that really didn't need to be cooled- > anyways that is how I remember it. > I work at a bareboat yacht charter company and the clients use the > fridges and freezers because they are on vacation for one week and take > luxury and typical home foods that require fridges. Are you going to > use mayonaise and margarine in the tropics? Perhaps one could make less > at dinner and not have leftovers that need refrigeration?? > | 18249|18225|2008-09-13 15:46:28|Paul Wilson|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|You definitely do not need a fridge. It's just one of those choices I chose to make. I just asked my wife and asked her if she would cruise offshore without a fridge. She said no. She would definitely do a passage without one but not life in the islands. My opinion is it's nice to have a cool drink once in awhile and a cool wife as well :). Warm beer sucks. Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 6:05 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard? I built an icebox on my last boat. Used it twice in 10 years. Keeping a fridge going, and supplied with energy is one of the major problems cruisers experience , until they get rid of it. Mayonaise? Mix a can of sweetened condensed milk with a half can of vinegar and a teaspoon of mustard and you have mayo that needs no refrigeration. Can all your meat and fish and you not only have the tenderest meat in the fleet, but you don't have to worry about the fridge crapping out and losing the works. Ditto anyhting else you want to keep. Far les work and money to find alternatives and change your diet to things that keep, than to keep a fridge going. Accept he fat that things change when you move aboard . Easier than fighting the reality. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "mark hamill" wrote: > > "A refrgerator is something a Canadian uses to keep his saurkraut 30 * > warmer than the outside temperature." > I think the Pardey's did a survey of the contents of peoples fridges > just to see what was in them and the upshot was that all seemed to be > underutilized and contained things that really didn't need to be cooled- > anyways that is how I remember it. > I work at a bareboat yacht charter company and the clients use the > fridges and freezers because they are on vacation for one week and take > luxury and typical home foods that require fridges. Are you going to > use mayonaise and margarine in the tropics? Perhaps one could make less > at dinner and not have leftovers that need refrigeration?? > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1669 - Release Date: 9/12/2008 2:18 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18250|18225|2008-09-13 17:15:34|silascrosby|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Reasons for a fridge, if we were to ever get one on our boat: Beer, Cheese and occasional fresh meat. Despite waxing, vinegar etc cheese just deteriorates in a warm climate even in BC in the summer in the steel bilge. Is cold beer worth $1000? Sure tastes like it sometimes in a beautiful anchorage on a hot afternoon with good friends, where the bilge isn't cold enough. Some people talk about memorable outhouses they have used or memorable showers they have taken. I certainly remember some really life-changing cold beers I have had sailing or hiking in the tropics, always when someone else has paid for and maintained the fridge. I guess maybe it might be my turn to supply some cold.Remember that habitual light drinkers live longer and are happier. Occasional fresh meat also means not having to waste the 20 lbs of the 25 lb Mahimahi when you can't cool it or can't dry it during a wet passage and it's too hot to use the pressure cooker or you're getting low on propane. Like Brent we have an icebox but never use it, too much hassle getting ice and disposing of rotted food, but a small efficient reliable (possible?) fridge that has an off/on switch ? Might use that. My wife wonders why I am even thinking of a fridge after 20 years of intermittent cruising always without a fridge. Good question. Possibly a 14 litre Engel on drawer sliders in a cupboard with extra insulation might suit our particular wants. Draws up to 2.5 amps for about 1/3 time according to some Australian 4WD forums. I think our new solar panels would run that with ease. Reasons against a fridge : too much money and failure prone. Just like everything CAN be on a boat.Like watermakers, wind generators, HF radios etc.etc. Had a great sail this a.m., talked on the Ham radio, and put a second coat of epoxy on some rusty spots under the cabin sole. It is a beautiful September in BC. It's all fun. Nearly Beer Time ! Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I built an icebox on my last boat. Used it twice in 10 years. > Keeping a fridge going, and supplied with energy is one of the major > problems cruisers experience , until they get rid of it. > Mayonaise? Mix a can of sweetened condensed milk with a half can of > vinegar and a teaspoon of mustard and you have mayo that needs no > refrigeration. > Can all your meat and fish and you not only have the tenderest meat in > the fleet, but you don't have to worry about the fridge crapping out > and losing the works. Ditto anyhting else you want to keep. Far les > work and money to find alternatives and change your diet to things that > keep, than to keep a fridge going. > Accept he fat that things change when you move aboard . Easier than > fighting the reality. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > > > "A refrgerator is something a Canadian uses to keep his saurkraut 30 > * > > warmer than the outside temperature." > > I think the Pardey's did a survey of the contents of peoples fridges > > just to see what was in them and the upshot was that all seemed to be > > underutilized and contained things that really didn't need to be > cooled- > > anyways that is how I remember it. > > I work at a bareboat yacht charter company and the clients use the > > fridges and freezers because they are on vacation for one week and > take > > luxury and typical home foods that require fridges. Are you going to > > use mayonaise and margarine in the tropics? Perhaps one could make > less > > at dinner and not have leftovers that need refrigeration?? > > > | 18251|18251|2008-09-13 19:52:58|silascrosby|Swain Boat in Alaska|Here is a nice photo of a Swain 36 from SF cruising Glacier Bay. http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2008-06-04&dayid=122| 18252|18225|2008-09-14 10:25:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 09:15:33PM -0000, silascrosby wrote: > Reasons for a fridge, if we were to ever get one on our boat: Beer, > Cheese and occasional fresh meat. Despite waxing, vinegar etc cheese > just deteriorates in a warm climate even in BC in the summer in the > steel bilge. > Is cold beer worth $1000? Sure tastes like it sometimes in a > beautiful anchorage on a hot afternoon with good friends, where the > bilge isn't cold enough. Something I've been considering instead of a fridge is a combination of icebox and ice maker. For $100-200, you can get this gadget that will make ice in *6 minutes* and will make up to ~30lbs of ice per day. Pros: you don't have to pay for power to run it all day, every day - but when you need ice, you can have it damn near instantly. You don't need to spend the thousands of dollars on the fridge + the stuff to power it. You can be the most popular guy in the anchorage because you have *ICE* - not just cold beer, but ICE - that people can put in their drinks. For that matter, you could sell ice in remote anchorages and so pay for the fuel that you use to make it, with the extras (money and ice) going to you... Cons: You need to have a relatively big space to store it in: the average unit is either 15"x12"x15" or 17"x14"x17" (and the bigger ones, notably the Sunpentown, are reported to be quite a bit more reliable than the smaller units.) You also need AC power - about 2.8A - while you're using it. It's a luxury option, to be sure, but it slots very neatly into the space between just having an icebox and going the whole hog with a reefer system. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18253|18225|2008-09-14 20:29:11|Gary Prebble|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Thanks for the mayo recipe 'cause I was wondering. Also, another of my missed luxuries is cottage cheese? Seemed to have missed the recipe section in the Heretics book. Thanks in advance... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I built an icebox on my last boat. Used it twice in 10 years. > Keeping a fridge going, and supplied with energy is one of the major > problems cruisers experience , until they get rid of it. > Mayonaise? Mix a can of sweetened condensed milk with a half can of > vinegar and a teaspoon of mustard and you have mayo that needs no > refrigeration. > Can all your meat and fish and you not only have the tenderest meat in > the fleet, but you don't have to worry about the fridge crapping out > and losing the works. Ditto anyhting else you want to keep. Far les > work and money to find alternatives and change your diet to things that > keep, than to keep a fridge going. > Accept he fat that things change when you move aboard . Easier than > fighting the reality. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > > > "A refrgerator is something a Canadian uses to keep his saurkraut 30 > * > > warmer than the outside temperature." > > I think the Pardey's did a survey of the contents of peoples fridges > > just to see what was in them and the upshot was that all seemed to be > > underutilized and contained things that really didn't need to be > cooled- > > anyways that is how I remember it. > > I work at a bareboat yacht charter company and the clients use the > > fridges and freezers because they are on vacation for one week and > take > > luxury and typical home foods that require fridges. Are you going to > > use mayonaise and margarine in the tropics? Perhaps one could make > less > > at dinner and not have leftovers that need refrigeration?? > > > | 18254|18225|2008-09-14 21:02:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 12:29:08AM -0000, Gary Prebble wrote: > Thanks for the mayo recipe 'cause I was wondering. Also, another of > my missed luxuries is cottage cheese? Seemed to have missed the > recipe section in the Heretics book. That one's easy. When you're in a civilized country (read "any place that doesn't add chemical crap to their milk"), take some milk and let it stand for about three days until it sours. Then, strain it through cheesecloth for a few hours (overnight if you like large curds.) /Voila/ - cottage cheese! Well, farmer's cheese, really - but it's very similar. In fact, I prefer it. I'm also a big fan of making sourdough bread while I'm cruising; in fact, I and my then-girlfriend (whom I taught how to do this) did a little class for cruisers on how to make good sourdough at Georgetown in the Bahamas. By the way, we didn't have an oven on "Recessional" - used to "bake" it in a heavy-walled pressure cooker on the stovetop, using cornmeal and lard to prevent it from sticking. We'd get these beautiful cake-shaped loaves... one time, when she made a butter-and-dill-flavored loaf, we scarfed it all within 10 minutes of it coming out. :) *Really* amazingly good stuff, and you can make your own starter by soaking some raw potato in water and then letting the water sit for a couple of days (toss it and start again if it turns pink.) Yeasty beasties are everywhere, including wind-blown anchorages well away from land. (If you can't tell yet, I love cooking.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18255|18225|2008-09-14 21:41:39|David Frantz|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Sounds like material for a book or at the very least a good web site. I can take it or leave it as far ad cooking goes but it is the eating where I need to learn control! ;) David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Sep 14, 2008, at 9:00 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 12:29:08AM -0000, Gary Prebble wrote: >> Thanks for the mayo recipe 'cause I was wondering. Also, another of >> my missed luxuries is cottage cheese? Seemed to have missed the >> recipe section in the Heretics book. > > That one's easy. When you're in a civilized country (read "any place > that doesn't add chemical crap to their milk"), take some milk and let > it stand for about three days until it sours. Then, strain it through > cheesecloth for a few hours (overnight if you like large curds.) / > Voila/ > - cottage cheese! Well, farmer's cheese, really - but it's very > similar. > In fact, I prefer it. > > I'm also a big fan of making sourdough bread while I'm cruising; in > fact, I and my then-girlfriend (whom I taught how to do this) did a > little class for cruisers on how to make good sourdough at > Georgetown in > the Bahamas. By the way, we didn't have an oven on "Recessional" - > used > to "bake" it in a heavy-walled pressure cooker on the stovetop, using > cornmeal and lard to prevent it from sticking. We'd get these > beautiful > cake-shaped loaves... one time, when she made a butter-and-dill- > flavored > loaf, we scarfed it all within 10 minutes of it coming out. :) > *Really* > amazingly good stuff, and you can make your own starter by soaking > some > raw potato in water and then letting the water sit for a couple of > days > (toss it and start again if it turns pink.) Yeasty beasties are > everywhere, including wind-blown anchorages well away from land. > > (If you can't tell yet, I love cooking.) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18256|18225|2008-09-14 23:51:35|theboilerflue|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|I remember reading a book called Voyaging on a small income or something like that about a couple in a junk rig dory and about half the book was reserved for the preservation of food on a boat. None of which are new ideas, unlike refrigeration. I didn't seem to be that much of a life altering choice to live without a fridge and makes things much more simple, so i'm inclined to agree with the non-refrigerationers. Far les > work and money to find alternatives and change your diet to things that > keep, than to keep a fridge going. > Accept he fat that things change when you move aboard . Easier than > fighting the reality. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > > > "A refrgerator is something a Canadian uses to keep his saurkraut 30 > * > > warmer than the outside temperature." > > I think the Pardey's did a survey of the contents of peoples fridges > > just to see what was in them and the upshot was that all seemed to be > > underutilized and contained things that really didn't need to be > cooled- > > anyways that is how I remember it. > > I work at a bareboat yacht charter company and the clients use the > > fridges and freezers because they are on vacation for one week and > take > > luxury and typical home foods that require fridges. Are you going to > > use mayonaise and margarine in the tropics? Perhaps one could make > less > > at dinner and not have leftovers that need refrigeration?? > > > | 18257|18257|2008-09-14 23:51:45|Gary Prebble|Swain's Mayo Tested|To refriderate or not to refriderate: Tomorrow I will be whisking up a bowl of BS mayo (as called for in recipe just posted). The BLT will be prepared as always except for the Kraft condiment to be substituted for BS origami Mayo. I will report. ....| 18258|18258|2008-09-14 23:58:18|theboilerflue|waterline|here's a question: Where should one put the bottom paint/waterline on the BS36, how far above the chine? about four inches or so?| 18259|18259|2008-09-15 03:17:29|kathyharperton|Freebies 15th September|Dear Members Everyone loves something for nothing, and you are JUST 2 CLICKS away from a page FULL of the TODAY'S LATEST FREE-STUFF 1.Click the text link below and it will take you to a new Freebie Group (it is NOT necessary to join it to get to the new freebie page!) 2. THEN simply click on the BIG RED TEXT LINK just below the home page PICTURE (or any of the messages further down!) and you will be taken INSTANTLY to a page full of TODAYS NEWEST FREEBIES! http://groups.google.com/group/freebietelegraph Take care and have a great week!| 18260|18225|2008-09-15 04:46:01|sae140|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Is cold beer worth $1000? Sure tastes like it sometimes in a > beautiful anchorage on a hot afternoon with good friends, where the > bilge isn't cold enough. If cool (but not exactly 'condensation on the glass' cold) beer is the objective, then put said beer into a 'goody bag' and hang 'em below a thermocline. Colin| 18261|18225|2008-09-15 08:54:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 08:45:57AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > > Is cold beer worth $1000? Sure tastes like it sometimes in a > > beautiful anchorage on a hot afternoon with good friends, where the > > bilge isn't cold enough. > > If cool (but not exactly 'condensation on the glass' cold) beer is the > objective, then put said beer into a 'goody bag' and hang 'em below a > thermocline. Heh. Sounds like a lovely idea... but according to Wikipedia, the thermocline in the tropics tends to run about 100 meters deep (deepest in the summer, worse luck.) Anchoring could be somewhat of a challenge, and pulling up all that line could be a job too. I'd also be a bit concerned about the bottle exploding due to the pressure difference (if I recall correctly, it doubles every 9.7 meters or so.) Other than that, it sounds perfect. :) The temps below the thermocline are supposed to be near 0°C. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18262|18258|2008-09-15 17:02:05|brentswain38|Re: waterline|Measure about 4 ft 6 inches down along the hull from the top of the bulwark pipe in the bow to the stem and use the bottom of the transom in the stern for the waterline aft, dead empty. As you load her she will sink 1 inch for every thousand pounds you add. The little wavelets in the harbour will cause growth well above the actual waterline , so going at least four inches above that line is a good idea. Every few years people raise their waterline, as possessions acumulate, so erring on the high side wil save you time later. Filling a clear plastic hose and letting just enough out , is an easy way to mark your waterline, as long as the boat is level. The top of the water in the hose will always be at the same level. You just move the hose around the hull and mark where the water is. Sounds like you are getting near the end of the painting. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > here's a question: Where should one put the bottom paint/waterline on > the BS36, how far above the chine? about four inches or so? > | 18263|18225|2008-09-15 17:06:18|brentswain38|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|In BC in Georgia Strait waters the thermocline is above ten feet down. Below that it's 7 degrees celcius , or 45 degrees farenheit year round. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 08:45:57AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Is cold beer worth $1000? Sure tastes like it sometimes in a > > > beautiful anchorage on a hot afternoon with good friends, where the > > > bilge isn't cold enough. > > > > If cool (but not exactly 'condensation on the glass' cold) beer is the > > objective, then put said beer into a 'goody bag' and hang 'em below a > > thermocline. > > Heh. Sounds like a lovely idea... but according to Wikipedia, the > thermocline in the tropics tends to run about 100 meters deep (deepest > in the summer, worse luck.) Anchoring could be somewhat of a challenge, > and pulling up all that line could be a job too. I'd also be a bit > concerned about the bottle exploding due to the pressure difference (if > I recall correctly, it doubles every 9.7 meters or so.) > > Other than that, it sounds perfect. :) The temps below the thermocline > are supposed to be near 0°C. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18264|18239|2008-09-15 17:10:05|brentswain38|Re: buffing sandy lifelines|After the sanding dic, those buffing pads that look like brillo pads , polish stainless so it looks electro polished. Lyle then put brylcream on to keep it shiny. Another use for brylcreme . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Haidan, > > We used a "flapper" sanding disk. > There are also some types of disks that use velcro on a rubber disk. > This is what we are going to use for the final polishing of all our > stainless. > > Carl > > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > and what did you use to buff out the roughend life lines from the > > sandblasting? > > > > > | 18265|18225|2008-09-15 17:18:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 09:06:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > In BC in Georgia Strait waters the thermocline is above ten feet > down. > Below that it's 7 degrees celcius , or 45 degrees farenheit year > round. [laugh] In BC, you guys probably have to warm your beer over a stove to get the alcohol to melt. If you could just come up with a superconductive cable that stretches from BC to the tropics, none of us would ever have to worry about refrigeration again. I've fished a number of lakes in which the thermocline was very shallow - you could see it on your depth sounder. Useful to know where it is; the fish tend to congregate right above it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18266|18225|2008-09-15 17:18:39|brentswain38|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Friends kept cheese well in the tropics by keeping it in a jar filled with cooking oil. You get to use the cooking oil afterward . I keep mahi by using whatever I can for the first supper, then putting the rest in the canner, and taking it up to heat. The next morning I take out breakfast, put the lid on the pressure cooker and take it up to rocking again, killing all the bacteria in it and effectively canning it in the pressure cooker. Leave the rocker on. I keep this up til the mahi is all gone. Somtimes when I get a lot , I just can the works. I caught a tuna two days out of Ucluelet, and had no canning lids so I pressuer cooked it and reheated it morning and night until I got in and bought some more lids so I could can it. I have dried a lot of Mahi. I heard Timo canned huge amounts of Mahi before he got to New Zealand. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Reasons for a fridge, if we were to ever get one on our boat: Beer, > Cheese and occasional fresh meat. Despite waxing, vinegar etc cheese > just deteriorates in a warm climate even in BC in the summer in the > steel bilge. > Is cold beer worth $1000? Sure tastes like it sometimes in a > beautiful anchorage on a hot afternoon with good friends, where the > bilge isn't cold enough. Some people talk about memorable outhouses > they have used or memorable showers they have taken. I certainly > remember some really life-changing cold beers I have had sailing or > hiking in the tropics, always when someone else has paid for and > maintained the fridge. I guess maybe it might be my turn to supply > some cold.Remember that habitual light drinkers live > longer and are happier. > Occasional fresh meat also means not having to waste the 20 lbs of > the 25 lb Mahimahi when you can't cool it or can't dry it during a wet > passage and it's too hot to use the pressure cooker or you're getting > low on propane. > > Like Brent we have an icebox but never use it, too much hassle > getting ice and disposing of rotted food, but a small efficient > reliable (possible?) fridge that has an off/on switch ? Might use that. > My wife wonders why I am even thinking of a fridge after 20 years of > intermittent cruising always without a fridge. Good question. > > Possibly a 14 litre Engel on drawer sliders in a cupboard with extra > insulation might suit our particular wants. Draws up to 2.5 amps for > about 1/3 time according to some Australian 4WD forums. I think our new > solar panels would run that with ease. > > Reasons against a fridge : too much money and failure prone. Just like > everything CAN be on a boat.Like watermakers, wind generators, HF > radios etc.etc. > Had a great sail this a.m., talked on the Ham radio, and put a second > coat of epoxy on some rusty spots under the cabin sole. It is a > beautiful September in BC. > It's all fun. Nearly Beer Time ! > > Steve > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I built an icebox on my last boat. Used it twice in 10 years. > > Keeping a fridge going, and supplied with energy is one of the major > > problems cruisers experience , until they get rid of it. > > Mayonaise? Mix a can of sweetened condensed milk with a half can of > > vinegar and a teaspoon of mustard and you have mayo that needs no > > refrigeration. > > Can all your meat and fish and you not only have the tenderest meat in > > the fleet, but you don't have to worry about the fridge crapping out > > and losing the works. Ditto anyhting else you want to keep. Far les > > work and money to find alternatives and change your diet to things that > > keep, than to keep a fridge going. > > Accept he fat that things change when you move aboard . Easier than > > fighting the reality. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > > > > > "A refrgerator is something a Canadian uses to keep his saurkraut 30 > > * > > > warmer than the outside temperature." > > > I think the Pardey's did a survey of the contents of peoples fridges > > > just to see what was in them and the upshot was that all seemed to be > > > underutilized and contained things that really didn't need to be > > cooled- > > > anyways that is how I remember it. > > > I work at a bareboat yacht charter company and the clients use the > > > fridges and freezers because they are on vacation for one week and > > take > > > luxury and typical home foods that require fridges. Are you going to > > > use mayonaise and margarine in the tropics? Perhaps one could make > > less > > > at dinner and not have leftovers that need refrigeration?? > > > > > > | 18267|18225|2008-09-15 17:25:22|brentswain38|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Another use for that sweetened condensed milk is to put an opened can of it in a pan of water, not enought to cover the can , and boil it until it turns into a very sweet Caramel. Haven't tried this yet, but several people have told me about it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Friends kept cheese well in the tropics by keeping it in a jar > filled with cooking oil. You get to use the cooking oil afterward . > I keep mahi by using whatever I can for the first supper, then > putting the rest in the canner, and taking it up to heat. The next > morning I take out breakfast, put the lid on the pressure cooker and > take it up to rocking again, killing all the bacteria in it and > effectively canning it in the pressure cooker. Leave the rocker on. > I keep this up til the mahi is all gone. Somtimes when I get a > lot , I just can the works. > I caught a tuna two days out of Ucluelet, and had no canning lids so > I pressuer cooked it and reheated it morning and night until I got > in and bought some more lids so I could can it. > I have dried a lot of Mahi. > I heard Timo canned huge amounts of Mahi before he got to New > Zealand. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > Reasons for a fridge, if we were to ever get one on our boat: Beer, > > Cheese and occasional fresh meat. Despite waxing, vinegar etc > cheese > > just deteriorates in a warm climate even in BC in the summer in the > > steel bilge. > > Is cold beer worth $1000? Sure tastes like it sometimes in a > > beautiful anchorage on a hot afternoon with good friends, where > the > > bilge isn't cold enough. Some people talk about memorable outhouses > > they have used or memorable showers they have taken. I certainly > > remember some really life-changing cold beers I have had sailing or > > hiking in the tropics, always when someone else has paid for and > > maintained the fridge. I guess maybe it might be my turn to supply > > some cold.Remember that habitual light drinkers live > > longer and are happier. > > Occasional fresh meat also means not having to waste the 20 lbs of > > the 25 lb Mahimahi when you can't cool it or can't dry it during a > wet > > passage and it's too hot to use the pressure cooker or you're > getting > > low on propane. > > > > Like Brent we have an icebox but never use it, too much hassle > > getting ice and disposing of rotted food, but a small efficient > > reliable (possible?) fridge that has an off/on switch ? Might use > that. > > My wife wonders why I am even thinking of a fridge after 20 > years of > > intermittent cruising always without a fridge. Good question. > > > > Possibly a 14 litre Engel on drawer sliders in a cupboard with > extra > > insulation might suit our particular wants. Draws up to 2.5 amps > for > > about 1/3 time according to some Australian 4WD forums. I think > our new > > solar panels would run that with ease. > > > > Reasons against a fridge : too much money and failure prone. Just > like > > everything CAN be on a boat.Like watermakers, wind generators, HF > > radios etc.etc. > > Had a great sail this a.m., talked on the Ham radio, and put a > second > > coat of epoxy on some rusty spots under the cabin sole. It is a > > beautiful September in BC. > > It's all fun. Nearly Beer Time ! > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I built an icebox on my last boat. Used it twice in 10 years. > > > Keeping a fridge going, and supplied with energy is one of the > major > > > problems cruisers experience , until they get rid of it. > > > Mayonaise? Mix a can of sweetened condensed milk with a half > can of > > > vinegar and a teaspoon of mustard and you have mayo that needs > no > > > refrigeration. > > > Can all your meat and fish and you not only have the tenderest > meat in > > > the fleet, but you don't have to worry about the fridge crapping > out > > > and losing the works. Ditto anyhting else you want to keep. Far > les > > > work and money to find alternatives and change your diet to > things that > > > keep, than to keep a fridge going. > > > Accept he fat that things change when you move aboard . Easier > than > > > fighting the reality. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" > wrote: > > > > > > > > "A refrgerator is something a Canadian uses to keep his > saurkraut 30 > > > * > > > > warmer than the outside temperature." > > > > I think the Pardey's did a survey of the contents of peoples > fridges > > > > just to see what was in them and the upshot was that all > seemed to be > > > > underutilized and contained things that really didn't need to > be > > > cooled- > > > > anyways that is how I remember it. > > > > I work at a bareboat yacht charter company and the clients use > the > > > > fridges and freezers because they are on vacation for one week > and > > > take > > > > luxury and typical home foods that require fridges. Are you > going to > > > > use mayonaise and margarine in the tropics? Perhaps one could > make > > > less > > > > at dinner and not have leftovers that need refrigeration?? > > > > > > > > > > | 18268|18225|2008-09-15 17:41:34|ANDREW AIREY|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|The book is called 'Voyaging on a small income' by Annie Hill and should be an essential purchase for anyone on this site because the book more or less takes off where Brents finishes.Annie posts occasionally on the Junkrig group on yahoo cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18269|18239|2008-09-15 17:47:42|Aaron Williams|Re: buffing sandy lifelines|In my side line business I use the scotch bright type that stick on with a velcro on a hard rubber pad. I found that after awhile the velcro wears out on the rubber backing pad so I bought a roll of self sticking velcro from costco.Then cut to fit and glued the new velcro to the rubber pad. I can go through about 25 pads before I have to change the velcro. I have been wondering about polishing. I figured I would work on that some time after the boat gets in the water. Aaron  --- On Mon, 9/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: buffing sandy lifelines To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 15, 2008, 1:10 PM After the sanding dic, those buffing pads that look like brillo pads , polish stainless so it looks electro polished. Lyle then put brylcream on to keep it shiny. Another use for brylcreme . Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Haidan, > > We used a "flapper" sanding disk. > There are also some types of disks that use velcro on a rubber disk. > This is what we are going to use for the final polishing of all our > stainless. > > Carl > > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > and what did you use to buff out the roughend life lines from the > > sandblasting? > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18270|18225|2008-09-15 17:57:23|T & D Cain|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|The Boss says: "The standard way to prepare caramel for tarts in this part of the world is to put your can of sweetened condensed milk (UNOPENED) in enough water to cover it. Boil for 90 minutes at a low rate. DO NOT let the process boil dry or there will be a nice sticky mess to clean up after the can bursts" She knows about the good and bad results after getting sidetracked on one occasion. This method means you can carry the caramel in a sealed can if that's what you want. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, 16 September 2008 06:55 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard? Another use for that sweetened condensed milk is to put an opened can of it in a pan of water, not enought to cover the can , and boil it until it turns into a very sweet Caramel. Haven't tried this yet, but several people have told me about it. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18271|18225|2008-09-15 18:45:11|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 09:25:19PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Another use for that sweetened condensed milk is to put an opened > can of it in a pan of water, not enought to cover the can , and boil > it until it turns into a very sweet Caramel. Haven't tried this yet, > but several people have told me about it. Yep - it's the standard way of making caramel even if you're not on a boat. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18272|18225|2008-09-15 18:48:57|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 09:41:30PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > The book is called 'Voyaging on a small income' by Annie Hill and > should be an essential purchase for anyone on this site because the > book more or less takes off where Brents finishes.Annie posts > occasionally on the Junkrig group on yahoo Heh. I've had that book on board for as long as I've been living aboard - and my wife is re-reading it right now, for the Nth time. I've told the '£200 Millionaire' story to so many people, I've got it damn near memorized. Great book, and I ought to subscribe to that group just to say 'thank you' to Annie. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18273|18225|2008-09-15 20:32:47|kingsknight4life|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 09:41:30PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > The book is called 'Voyaging on a small income' by Annie Hill and > > should be an essential purchase for anyone on this site because the > > book more or less takes off where Brents finishes.Annie posts > > occasionally on the Junkrig group on yahoo > >I confess to owning that book as well, although I did buy Brent's first. :) Annie is also a regular on he Wylo II group. That group is alot like "ours" ie. small self made steel cruisers, with an emphasis on practicality and fruglaity. It is a smaller group and not as active as this one though and like ours, most people who have their steel boats built are out cruising them. Rowland| 18274|18239|2008-09-15 20:38:59|kingsknight4life|Re: buffing sandy lifelines|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > In my side line business I use the scotch bright type that stick on with a velcro on a hard rubber pad. I've used those too and they work well for removing rust specks from and polshing the lifelines. Back when I had them :) Rowland| 18275|18258|2008-09-15 22:49:48|theboilerflue|Re: waterline|I am getting pretty close to the end of painting now. i'm just going to wait a little for the paint to cure completely thenm i think i'll put the last coat on, i'm going to use the blue fisherman's paint form home hardware for the top sides white on deck and 25% copper for bottom paint. I guess my boat will look a bit like the french flag or is it dutch turned sideways. Leveling the boat is something i've always wanted to do but was never sure on where to put the level, i'm assuming the boat sits flat on it keels to be level? so then the flat bottoms of the keel should be level yes (end to end)? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Measure about 4 ft 6 inches down along the hull from the top of the > bulwark pipe in the bow to the stem and use the bottom of the transom > in the stern for the waterline aft, dead empty. As you load her she > will sink 1 inch for every thousand pounds you add. The little > wavelets in the harbour will cause growth well above the actual > waterline , so going at least four inches above that line is a good > idea. > Every few years people raise their waterline, as possessions > acumulate, so erring on the high side wil save you time later. > Filling a clear plastic hose and letting just enough out , is an > easy way to mark your waterline, as long as the boat is level. The top > of the water in the hose will always be at the same level. You just > move the hose around the hull and mark where the water is. > Sounds like you are getting near the end of the painting. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > wrote: > > > > here's a question: Where should one put the bottom paint/waterline on > > the BS36, how far above the chine? about four inches or so? > > > | 18276|18225|2008-09-16 06:09:01|sae140|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 09:41:30PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > The book is called 'Voyaging on a small income' by Annie Hill and > > should be an essential purchase for anyone on this site because the > > book more or less takes off where Brents finishes.Annie posts > > occasionally on the Junkrig group on yahoo > > Heh. I've had that book on board for as long as I've been living aboard > - and my wife is re-reading it right now, for the Nth time. I've told > the '£200 Millionaire' story to so many people, I've got it damn near > memorized. Great book, and I ought to subscribe to that group just to > say 'thank you' to Annie. > It's surprising how many people think that Annie's book is about 'Cruising for Poor People' - but it's not - it's a book about capitalism, in it's most constructive sense. The £200 is of course the interest that the guy lived on. I once worked out what the equivalent would be today - I think it was around £8K (if memory serves), which would require around £160,000 capital (at today's interest rates) - which of course 'poor people' simply don't have. It's difficult to make direct comparisons of course - in 1932 £200 would have bought you a 3-bed semi in the Midlands, which - until 3 or 4 weeks ago would have been worth upwards of £150,000. That kind of interest would require £3 million of capital. But UK house prices skew the figures dramatically. But even with some financial adjustment, it's still an inspirational story .... Colin| 18277|18225|2008-09-16 06:36:19|sae140|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 08:45:57AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Is cold beer worth $1000? Sure tastes like it sometimes in a > > > beautiful anchorage on a hot afternoon with good friends, where the > > > bilge isn't cold enough. > > > > If cool (but not exactly 'condensation on the glass' cold) beer is the > > objective, then put said beer into a 'goody bag' and hang 'em below a > > thermocline. > > Heh. Sounds like a lovely idea... but according to Wikipedia, the > thermocline in the tropics tends to run about 100 meters deep (deepest > in the summer, worse luck.) Anchoring could be somewhat of a challenge, > and pulling up all that line could be a job too. I'd also be a bit > concerned about the bottle exploding due to the pressure difference (if > I recall correctly, it doubles every 9.7 meters or so.) > > Other than that, it sounds perfect. :) The temps below the thermocline > are supposed to be near 0°C. It's a method which works well in The Med, especially in spring when the water's still bl##dy cold but you're sweating cobs up top. The 'official' thermocline is supposed to be at some 50m, but in practice there's a definite layer you pass through when snorkelling at around 20-25 feet, and if you're scuba-diving there's another layer just shy of 100 feet. That's in spring (around Malta/Gozo) - it might change later on in the year. You're right about the pressure doubling every 30 feet - so make sure any glass bottles are full, or if you're just keeping the milk cold, pour it into a flexible plastic bottle first. Colin| 18278|18278|2008-09-16 07:26:01|cokedrum|Primer|Hey all I was in the market for some Devoe Catha-Coat 302H last week, until I was told that it's not available over the counter. Atleast according too the Devoe rep in Edmonton. What a crock, apparently its only for sale to professional painters (big whatever to that). So, any recommendations?/price figures. That Devoe primer is $80/liter, are they all in this ballpark? I was also wondering if these zinc based primers have a certain length of time that you have to get your paint on for it to bond properly. More to the point, what would be a good primer for a person who wasn't planning to paint right away. There is a name for this period, but im drawing a blank at the moment. Thanks Jesse| 18279|18225|2008-09-16 09:21:55|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 10:08:58AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > It's surprising how many people think that Annie's book is about > 'Cruising for Poor People' - but it's not - it's a book about > capitalism, in it's most constructive sense. > The £200 is of course the interest that the guy lived on. I once > worked out what the equivalent would be today - I think it was around > £8K (if memory serves), which would require around £160,000 capital > (at today's interest rates) - which of course 'poor people' simply > don't have. £8K? That's quite a jump. There's a summary in the story that details his expenditures, so it wouldn't be that hard to calculate: L. s. d. Income: 190 0 0 Expenditure: Upkeep of boat (at 9s. per week) 23 8 0 Petrol and oil 10 4 0 (distance covered under motor 1220 miles) Charts, canal dues 13 8 0 Food, drink, clothes, light and heat 100 0 0 (at just under L 2 a week) _____________ 147 0 0 Balance: 43 0 0 ------------- 190 0 0 He bought enough paint for the boat, that first year, to paint her inside once and outside three times. For a 30' boat, that might work out to, what, 10 gallons? For the kind of paint he was using, the modern equivalent is probably about $20-$25/gallon (this wouldn't be a yearly expenditure, however.) Let's be generous and call that $250. 1220 miles with a small engine - probably something between 3 and 5HP, burning about a quart an hour and making, say, 5kt - works out to 244 hours of running time, or about 61 gallons of fuel. At today's prices (this is, of course, a completely skewed and unfair comparison due to an insane jump in oil prices over the last decade, but we want to see what it would cost today), that's about $300 - ouch! - which brings us up to $550. Charts - especially given the average cruiser's penchant for copying and trading - should come to somewhere between nothing and $100 per year (we're now at $650 or so.) Clothes, light, and heat, at the rate that he describes (mostly picking up wood on the beach for his stove, and only occasionally burning coal; for clothes, only basic maintenance plus costs to wash them himself; for food, mostly trading with farmers) shouldn't be more than a pittance - let's call it another $100, bringing us up to $750. I've left food for last. From the description, the good doctor was mostly a vegetarian - and mostly traded with farmers rather than going to stores. For a man who is careful and isn't paying store prices, $5/day is not an unreasonable figure - figuring on oatmeal, a chicken, and a bunch of veggies as the average food for a day. That, of course, is the biggest expenditure - almost $2000 a year - for a grand total of about $2750. This, of course, assumes that our cruiser today does no fishing, diving, etc. and just eats "out of his pocket." Let's also say that he banked some 25% of his income (£43, originally) - that would be about a third of the above figure, i.e., about $920. That makes for a total of $3670 - let's add a bit more slop, despite having been very generous in the above calculations, and call it $4k (at today's exchange rates, that's about £2230.) For a $4k yearly income at 15% - that's what long-term investments are paying these days rather than the 5% you show above - you'd need something like $27k in the bank. Even if you were paying some ridiculous amount in taxes - which you wouldn't, if that was your only income - you'd need $35k or so, a.k.a. about £20k. I don't believe that this is out of range for someone who is willing to acquire a professional skill and work hard - including Brent's scenario of learning to weld and going to work as a welder. This is fairly accurate in practical terms, as well. I've known a number of cruisers who were happily living on $4k or less per year when I was cruising the Caribbean. In my own first year of cruising, I spent ~$4500 (just like the man in the story, I was being very careful) - and that took care of *two* people, as I was cruising with a girlfriend. $2k of that, by the way, included loading up the boat with bulk food from very inexpensive sources. This also didn't include much maintenance, since we had spent the previous couple of years working our butts off getting her outfitted and ready to cruise. > But even with some financial adjustment, it's still an inspirational > story .... Indeed! Its message - that a working man (not to speak of a doctor) can save up enough to go cruising for a long, long time - is still true if you're willing to do it smart. I think that there's another guy here - some Canadian boat designer and builder, can't think of the name :) - who says much the same thing. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18280|18278|2008-09-16 12:34:48|James Pronk|Re: Primer|Hello Jesse I will talk to my next door neighbour/ICI Paint store and see if I could have it ordered for you to pick-up "cod" in Edmonton. I have done this for friends before and it was no problem. Email me at jpronk1@.... I will look into it for you today, James Pronk. > > Hey all > > I was in the market for some Devoe Catha-Coat 302H last week, > until I was told that it's not available over the counter. > Atleast according too the Devoe rep in Edmonton. > What a crock, apparently its only for sale to professional painters > (big whatever to that). > > So, any recommendations?/price figures. > That Devoe primer is $80/liter, are they all in this ballpark? > > I was also wondering if these zinc based primers have a certain > length of time that you have to get your paint on for it to bond > properly. More to the point, what would be a good primer for a person > who wasn't planning to paint right away. > > There is a name for this period, but im drawing a blank at the moment. > > Thanks > Jesse > | 18281|18258|2008-09-16 17:45:30|brentswain38|Re: waterline|Run a line from the point in the bow that I suggested , 4ft 6 inches along the plate from the top of the bulwark to the stem, to the bottom of the transom. Put a level on this line and jack and block it till it's level, then check across the chines athwartship to make it level that way. Then your hull is level. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I am getting pretty close to the end of painting now. i'm just going > to wait a little for the paint to cure completely thenm i think i'll > put the last coat on, i'm going to use the blue fisherman's paint form > home hardware for the top sides white on deck and 25% copper for > bottom paint. I guess my boat will look a bit like the french flag or > is it dutch turned sideways. Leveling the boat is something i've > always wanted to do but was never sure on where to put the level, i'm > assuming the boat sits flat on it keels to be level? so then the flat > bottoms of the keel should be level yes (end to end)? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Measure about 4 ft 6 inches down along the hull from the top of the > > bulwark pipe in the bow to the stem and use the bottom of the transom > > in the stern for the waterline aft, dead empty. As you load her she > > will sink 1 inch for every thousand pounds you add. The little > > wavelets in the harbour will cause growth well above the actual > > waterline , so going at least four inches above that line is a good > > idea. > > Every few years people raise their waterline, as possessions > > acumulate, so erring on the high side wil save you time later. > > Filling a clear plastic hose and letting just enough out , is an > > easy way to mark your waterline, as long as the boat is level. The top > > of the water in the hose will always be at the same level. You just > > move the hose around the hull and mark where the water is. > > Sounds like you are getting near the end of the painting. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > > wrote: > > > > > > here's a question: Where should one put the bottom paint/waterline on > > > the BS36, how far above the chine? about four inches or so? > > > > > > | 18282|18225|2008-09-16 18:04:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 10:36:16AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 08:45:57AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Is cold beer worth $1000? Sure tastes like it sometimes in a > > > > beautiful anchorage on a hot afternoon with good friends, where the > > > > bilge isn't cold enough. > > > > > > If cool (but not exactly 'condensation on the glass' cold) beer is the > > > objective, then put said beer into a 'goody bag' and hang 'em below a > > > thermocline. > > > > Heh. Sounds like a lovely idea... but according to Wikipedia, the > > thermocline in the tropics tends to run about 100 meters deep (deepest > > in the summer, worse luck.) Anchoring could be somewhat of a challenge, > > and pulling up all that line could be a job too. I'd also be a bit > > concerned about the bottle exploding due to the pressure difference (if > > I recall correctly, it doubles every 9.7 meters or so.) > > > > Other than that, it sounds perfect. :) The temps below the thermocline > > are supposed to be near 0°C. > > It's a method which works well in The Med, especially in spring when > the water's still bl##dy cold but you're sweating cobs up top. > The 'official' thermocline is supposed to be at some 50m, but in > practice there's a definite layer you pass through when snorkelling at > around 20-25 feet, and if you're scuba-diving there's another layer > just shy of 100 feet. That's in spring (around Malta/Gozo) - it might > change later on in the year. Ah! Now that I think about it, diving in the US/BVIs has the same characteristics: a cooler layer about 25' down, and another drop at about 75'-90' (I recall diving a wreck at ~90', and it was almost too chilly for my tropics-adapted hide and a 4mm wetsuit. :) It's not the thermocline, but it'll certainly cool your wine down to a nice drinking temperature. Again, the trick would be finding a way to hang out over that depth for a while; towing a bottle that deep at sailing speeds would be quite a trick. > You're right about the pressure doubling every 30 feet - [laugh] Sorry, gotta correct myself there (I realized it as soon as I sent it off, but was feeling too lazy to just send a correction then) - it's one atmosphere for every 33' or so rather than doubling, of course (European divers tend to figure it as one decibar per meter, which is close enough; 1bar/9.7m, if I recall correctly.) > so make sure > any glass bottles are full, or if you're just keeping the milk cold, > pour it into a flexible plastic bottle first. Definitely a good idea there. I wonder if if would make sense to decant the wine into a squeezable plastic bottle before dropping it over the side? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18283|18278|2008-09-17 01:06:38|kingsknight4life|Re: Primer|Jesse Are you building a boat in Edmonton? That is where I live. Also are u the same Jesse who did some welding on our BS36 when it was in Duncan? If so small world. :) Rowland| 18284|18278|2008-09-17 05:49:49|cokedrum|Re: Primer|Hey Roland I do live in Edmonton, but not the same Jesse. As of yet I do not have a building site. In the mean time I am going to cut and build as much as I can at work and hide it around the shop. (Sshh don't tell anyone) Jesse --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Jesse > Are you building a boat in Edmonton? That is where I live. Also are u the same Jesse who did some welding on our BS36 when it was in Duncan? If so small world. :) > Rowland > | 18285|18225|2008-09-17 06:06:56|sae140|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 10:08:58AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > > It's surprising how many people think that Annie's book is about > > 'Cruising for Poor People' - but it's not - it's a book about > > capitalism, in it's most constructive sense. > > The £200 is of course the interest that the guy lived on. I once > > worked out what the equivalent would be today - I think it was around > > £8K (if memory serves), which would require around £160,000 capital > > (at today's interest rates) - which of course 'poor people' simply > > don't have. > > £8K? That's quite a jump. Well - that figure might be over the top as I was recalling some earlier calculations from memory - which isn't all it used to be .... There are several big UK price increases between the 1930s and today. One is the cost of boat maintenance, especially if a haul-out is required. Wood for repairs now costs the earth to buy, and drift wood as fuel for the stove simply doesn't exist anymore. (Plenty of plastic though ..) Another cost is that for using the European canals. (Although I'd quickly add that their charges are most reasonable compared with those of British Waterways.) There is also the need for safety certificates (UK) and a CEVNI endorsement (France). And insurance, of course. Small money, but it all adds up. Now for the BIG one: in 1930 you could put into virtually any British port or harbour and put your anchor down for free. These days a little man in a uniform will relieve you of some hard-earned beer coupons for doing this. So enthusiastic are this little band of robbers that they will usually meet you as you approach their area of control. Charges vary, but for the sake of this post, let's say a minimum of £10 a night - and that's just to put your anchor down or use a vacant buoy. Tie-up alongside and you're looking at much higher costs. South coast ports/marinas are unbelievably expensive. I'd stick my neck out and say that mooring & marina charges would constitute 50% of your annual budget. Different scenario in other countries, of course, where The Crown Estate doesn't own the seabed. Colin| 18286|18225|2008-09-17 10:54:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:06:54AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > Now for the BIG one: in 1930 you could put into virtually any British > port or harbour and put your anchor down for free. These days a > little man in a uniform will relieve you of some hard-earned beer > coupons for doing this. So enthusiastic are this little band of > robbers that they will usually meet you as you approach their area of > control. Charges vary, but for the sake of this post, let's say a > minimum of £10 a night - and that's just to put your anchor down or > use a vacant buoy. Yikes... I've considered cruising the canals, perhaps starting in the Netherlands - "Ulysses" is actually designed for this, having been built in the Ijselmeer, masts in tabernacles and all - but I figured that the various charges would add up pretty quickly. I'd imagine that France isn't much better on that, although Rumania, etc. may be. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18287|18287|2008-09-17 11:07:28|Ben Okopnik|Two-part garage floor epoxy|I recall that several people here have used this stuff and liked it. Does it require a topcoat, or does it work well as is? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18288|18225|2008-09-17 12:12:26|ANDREW AIREY|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Try the Brittany canals - no license fee and very friendly and helpful lock-keepers.Expensive to moor up at Dinan though.My thoughts on £200 a year or £4 a week is that £4 was a good wage for a working man then so say about £300 a week now cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18289|18225|2008-09-17 12:24:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 04:12:20PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > Try the Brittany canals - no license fee and very friendly and helpful > lock-keepers.Expensive to moor up at Dinan though.My thoughts on £200 > a year or £4 a week is that £4 was a good wage for a working man then > so say about £300 a week now Hmmm, I've always wanted to cruise Europe... thanks! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18290|18258|2008-09-17 18:08:22|brentswain38|Re: waterline|The bottoms of the keels are more or less level , but there is no guarantee they are absolutely level. Double check it with the method I described. Half an inch difference in the length of the keel can be a huge difference in the length of the boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I am getting pretty close to the end of painting now. i'm just going > to wait a little for the paint to cure completely thenm i think i'll > put the last coat on, i'm going to use the blue fisherman's paint form > home hardware for the top sides white on deck and 25% copper for > bottom paint. I guess my boat will look a bit like the french flag or > is it dutch turned sideways. Leveling the boat is something i've > always wanted to do but was never sure on where to put the level, i'm > assuming the boat sits flat on it keels to be level? so then the flat > bottoms of the keel should be level yes (end to end)? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Measure about 4 ft 6 inches down along the hull from the top of the > > bulwark pipe in the bow to the stem and use the bottom of the transom > > in the stern for the waterline aft, dead empty. As you load her she > > will sink 1 inch for every thousand pounds you add. The little > > wavelets in the harbour will cause growth well above the actual > > waterline , so going at least four inches above that line is a good > > idea. > > Every few years people raise their waterline, as possessions > > acumulate, so erring on the high side wil save you time later. > > Filling a clear plastic hose and letting just enough out , is an > > easy way to mark your waterline, as long as the boat is level. The top > > of the water in the hose will always be at the same level. You just > > move the hose around the hull and mark where the water is. > > Sounds like you are getting near the end of the painting. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > > wrote: > > > > > > here's a question: Where should one put the bottom paint/waterline on > > > the BS36, how far above the chine? about four inches or so? > > > > > > | 18291|18225|2008-09-17 18:17:48|brentswain38|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Wow. You have a way of making us colonials appreciate living out here in the free world. Our BC beaches are piled high with driftwood of every type and persuasion. There is considerable plywood and boatbuilding wood everywhere, free for the taking. I clean my bottom , and do my maintenance on remote beaches.Anchorage is always free. There are no boat safety inspections of any kind. There are minimum requirements like lifejackets , flares , etc, but I've only been asked to show my lifejacket once in 37 years of cruising. Government rarely shows it's ugly head. The trick is to stay away from where everyone else wants to be. Sad you've lost so much of your freedom. They are slowly trying to do that here. Like a frog in boiling water , they are relying on apathy to allow it to happen. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 10:08:58AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > > > > It's surprising how many people think that Annie's book is about > > > 'Cruising for Poor People' - but it's not - it's a book about > > > capitalism, in it's most constructive sense. > > > The £200 is of course the interest that the guy lived on. I once > > > worked out what the equivalent would be today - I think it was around > > > £8K (if memory serves), which would require around £160,000 capital > > > (at today's interest rates) - which of course 'poor people' simply > > > don't have. > > > > £8K? That's quite a jump. > > Well - that figure might be over the top as I was recalling some > earlier calculations from memory - which isn't all it used to be .... > > There are several big UK price increases between the 1930s and today. > One is the cost of boat maintenance, especially if a haul-out is > required. Wood for repairs now costs the earth to buy, and drift wood > as fuel for the stove simply doesn't exist anymore. (Plenty of plastic > though ..) Another cost is that for using the European canals. > (Although I'd quickly add that their charges are most reasonable > compared with those of British Waterways.) There is also the need for > safety certificates (UK) and a CEVNI endorsement (France). And > insurance, of course. Small money, but it all adds up. > Now for the BIG one: in 1930 you could put into virtually any British > port or harbour and put your anchor down for free. These days a > little man in a uniform will relieve you of some hard-earned beer > coupons for doing this. So enthusiastic are this little band of > robbers that they will usually meet you as you approach their area of > control. Charges vary, but for the sake of this post, let's say a > minimum of £10 a night - and that's just to put your anchor down or > use a vacant buoy. > Tie-up alongside and you're looking at much higher costs. South coast > ports/marinas are unbelievably expensive. > > I'd stick my neck out and say that mooring & marina charges would > constitute 50% of your annual budget. Different scenario in other > countries, of course, where The Crown Estate doesn't own the seabed. > Colin > | 18292|18225|2008-09-17 18:25:13|brentswain38|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|I've always found anything with alcohol in to taste a lot like weasel piss.( Never tried weasel piss, just imagining) When you drink something cold , it numbs the tastebuds, which is the only reason alcohol tastes better cold. If you have bad wine , serve it very cold and you'll numb everyones tastebuds so that it will taste great( only thru cold ,totally numbed tastebuds) The difference between good beer and bad beer is one tasts less foul than the other. I use to drink for the high, but never did like the taste, nor the tiredess the next couple of days . I always loved getting those who had a beer the night before in the boxing ring. Man they have absolutely no gas in their tank. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 09:06:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > In BC in Georgia Strait waters the thermocline is above ten feet > > down. > > Below that it's 7 degrees celcius , or 45 degrees farenheit year > > round. > > [laugh] In BC, you guys probably have to warm your beer over a stove to > get the alcohol to melt. If you could just come up with a > superconductive cable that stretches from BC to the tropics, none of us > would ever have to worry about refrigeration again. > > I've fished a number of lakes in which the thermocline was very shallow > - you could see it on your depth sounder. Useful to know where it is; > the fish tend to congregate right above it. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18293|18225|2008-09-17 22:01:49|silascrosby|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Brent, You got me, I can't resist. 'No gas in the tank' ? Gimme a break. I don't box ,do you run ? How does Friday sound ? Beer lubes the joints ya know, less pain. Have you ever seen a better September in this part of the world ? Unbelievable. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've always found anything with alcohol in to taste a lot like weasel > piss.( Never tried weasel piss, just imagining) When you drink > something cold , it numbs the tastebuds, which is the only reason > alcohol tastes better cold. If you have bad wine , serve it very cold > and you'll numb everyones tastebuds so that it will taste great( > only thru cold ,totally numbed tastebuds) > The difference between good beer and bad beer is one tasts less foul > than the other. I use to drink for the high, but never did like the > taste, nor the tiredess the next couple of days . > I always loved getting those who had a beer the night before in the > boxing ring. Man they have absolutely no gas in their tank. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 09:06:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > In BC in Georgia Strait waters the thermocline is above ten feet > > > down. > > > Below that it's 7 degrees celcius , or 45 degrees farenheit > year > > > round. > > > > [laugh] In BC, you guys probably have to warm your beer over a > stove to > > get the alcohol to melt. If you could just come up with a > > superconductive cable that stretches from BC to the tropics, none > of us > > would ever have to worry about refrigeration again. > > > > I've fished a number of lakes in which the thermocline was very > shallow > > - you could see it on your depth sounder. Useful to know where it > is; > > the fish tend to congregate right above it. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 18294|18294|2008-09-18 04:34:09|patmeatham|Freebies 18th September|Dear Members Everyone loves something for nothing, and you are JUST 2 CLICKS away from a page FULL of the TODAY'S LATEST FREE-STUFF 1.Click the text link below and it will take you to a new Freebie Group (it is NOT necessary to join it to get to the new freebie page!) 2. THEN simply click on the BIG RED TEXT LINK just below the home page PICTURE (or any of the messages further down!) and you will be taken INSTANTLY to a page full of TODAYS NEWEST FREEBIES! http://groups.google.com/group/freebietelegraph Take care and have a great week!| 18295|18225|2008-09-18 08:39:10|James Pronk|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|How long do you think you could run in the ring before Brent catches you? I know I would be running! James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Brent, You got me, I can't resist. 'No gas in the tank' ? Gimme a > break. I don't box ,do you run ? How does Friday sound ? Beer lubes > the joints ya know, less pain. > Have you ever seen a better September in this part of the world ? > Unbelievable. > Steve > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I've always found anything with alcohol in to taste a lot like weasel > > piss.( Never tried weasel piss, just imagining) When you drink > > something cold , it numbs the tastebuds, which is the only reason > > alcohol tastes better cold. If you have bad wine , serve it very cold > > and you'll numb everyones tastebuds so that it will taste great( > > only thru cold ,totally numbed tastebuds) > > The difference between good beer and bad beer is one tasts less foul > > than the other. I use to drink for the high, but never did like the > > taste, nor the tiredess the next couple of days . > > I always loved getting those who had a beer the night before in the > > boxing ring. Man they have absolutely no gas in their tank. > > Brent | 18296|18225|2008-09-18 14:28:50|ANDREW AIREY|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Go ahead and do it Ben.Just how big is your version of the Titanic anyway. If you are only talking 30ft or so,as in the £200 millionaire, then the licence fees aren't too bad.The British charge on length,the French charge on area(crafty sods),I'm not sure about the Dutch or the Belgians(might be free in Belgium) and thanks to Duchess Anne,of blessed memory,the Bretons don't.As a visitor you may be able to get away with a lot anyway.The boat safety regs are mostly commonsense,like venting batteries upward or gas and petrol outside the hull.Best to have a porta-potti,tank or airhead system.You ought to be able to avoid marinas anyway if on a canal since you moor up round the next bend,or within cycling distance at any rate.Don't forget though that the French refer to canalised rivers as canals so this may limit your mooring opportunities.More places may charge in July and August,these being the popular holiday months,but are otherwise free.Plenty of information available on the Eurocanals group.I had a marvellous time on a 15m Dutch sailing barge 2 years ago on the canal du Midi and again last year in Brittany on the canals and round the coast to the Paimpol festival.Unfortunately the skipper has now sold it - he thought that,at 87,15m and 23 tons were getting a bit much to handle single handed -and has now bought a 300hp power boat. cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18297|18225|2008-09-19 10:50:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 06:28:47PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > Go ahead and do it Ben.Just how big is your version of the Titanic anyway. [grin] "Ulysses" is 34" LOD. I'd already sailed her from the Virgin Islands to Bermuda on my way to Europe - but my personal life sorta exploded at that point (nothing to do with sailing) and I made a decision, more by default than anything else, to sail back to the US. That wasn't necessarily a bad decision - I now have a wife who's raring to go cruising with me and a sturdy little 1-year old son who's absolutely fearless and whom I want to raise while showing him the world. It also put a bunch of money in my pocket (well, mostly into the boat. :) > If you are only talking 30ft or so,as in the £200 millionaire, then > the licence fees aren't too bad.The British charge on length,the > French charge on area(crafty sods),I'm not sure about the Dutch or the > Belgians(might be free in Belgium) and thanks to Duchess Anne,of > blessed memory,the Bretons don't.As a visitor you may be able to get > away with a lot anyway.The boat safety regs are mostly > commonsense,like venting batteries upward or gas and petrol outside > the hull.Best to have a porta-potti,tank or airhead system.You ought > to be able to avoid marinas anyway if on a canal since you moor up > round the next bend,or within cycling distance at any rate.Don't > forget though that the French refer to canalised rivers as canals so > this may limit your mooring opportunities.More places may charge in > July and August,these being the popular holiday months,but are > otherwise free.Plenty of information available on the Eurocanals > group. Excellent, thanks! I've just signed up. > I had a marvellous time on a 15m > Dutch sailing barge 2 years ago on the canal du Midi and again last > year in Brittany on the canals and round the coast to the Paimpol > festival.Unfortunately the skipper has now sold it - he thought > that,at 87,15m and 23 tons were getting a bit much to handle single > handed -and has now bought a 300hp power boat. He sounds like quite a character - but given what he was doing, that's no surprise. Thanks for the info, Andy! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18298|18225|2008-09-19 14:14:42|brentswain38|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Better september just ended , for the time being.The lake was 20 one day 18 the next , then I left it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Brent, You got me, I can't resist. 'No gas in the tank' ? Gimme a > break. I don't box ,do you run ? How does Friday sound ? Beer lubes > the joints ya know, less pain. > Have you ever seen a better September in this part of the world ? > Unbelievable. > Steve > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I've always found anything with alcohol in to taste a lot like weasel > > piss.( Never tried weasel piss, just imagining) When you drink > > something cold , it numbs the tastebuds, which is the only reason > > alcohol tastes better cold. If you have bad wine , serve it very cold > > and you'll numb everyones tastebuds so that it will taste great( > > only thru cold ,totally numbed tastebuds) > > The difference between good beer and bad beer is one tasts less foul > > than the other. I use to drink for the high, but never did like the > > taste, nor the tiredess the next couple of days . > > I always loved getting those who had a beer the night before in the > > boxing ring. Man they have absolutely no gas in their tank. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 09:06:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > In BC in Georgia Strait waters the thermocline is above ten feet > > > > down. > > > > Below that it's 7 degrees celcius , or 45 degrees farenheit > > year > > > > round. > > > > > > [laugh] In BC, you guys probably have to warm your beer over a > > stove to > > > get the alcohol to melt. If you could just come up with a > > > superconductive cable that stretches from BC to the tropics, none > > of us > > > would ever have to worry about refrigeration again. > > > > > > I've fished a number of lakes in which the thermocline was very > > shallow > > > - you could see it on your depth sounder. Useful to know where it > > is; > > > the fish tend to congregate right above it. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > | 18299|18299|2008-09-19 14:20:04|brentswain38|steel mast scarf|The last steel mast I did , instead of using a sleeve I scarfed it with a 12 inch scarf. Much lighter, quicker and simpler. If anyone is welding up a steel mast from 6 inch OD tubing, I have the pattern for a 12 inch scarf. You just wrap it around the mast, mark and cut it with zipcuts and you'll be very close to what you need. Brent| 18300|18300|2008-09-22 02:52:56|joybrackton|Freebies 22nd September|Dear Members Everyone loves something for nothing, and you are JUST 2 CLICKS away from a page FULL of the TODAY'S LATEST FREE-STUFF 1.Click the text link below and it will take you to a new Freebie Group (it is NOT necessary to join it to get to the new freebie page!) 2. THEN simply click on the BIG RED TEXT LINK just below the home page PICTURE (or any of the messages further down!) and you will be taken INSTANTLY to a page full of TODAYS NEWEST FREEBIES! http://groups.google.com/group/freebietelegraph Take care and have a great week!| 18301|18301|2008-09-23 15:10:03|theboilerflue|Radar Reflector|Someone just told me about this radar reflector they had built. Very Cheap construction: Take those little aluminum tart cups and attach them in a series of rings facing out around a pole of some some sort. Put many rings on the pole staggard so it's nice a tall and put it into a plastic pipe with caps on the ends and stringit up your mast. This guy said he had a friend who worked for BC ferries give him a reading on it and apparently it looks like a super tanker. He said he basically just copied an expensive custom made one he saw that was made of a whole bunch of machined little dishes like pie plates. I was just wondering if anyone has heard or tried this and thought i'd put it out there.| 18302|18301|2008-09-23 15:19:14|James|Re: Radar Reflector|i often wondered why folk don`t simply fill their mast as much as poss with those things......mine is solid wood . jim On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 8:10 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > Someone just told me about this radar reflector they had built. > Very Cheap construction: > Take those little aluminum tart cups and attach them in a series of > rings facing out around a pole of some some sort. Put many rings on > the pole staggard so it's nice a tall and put it into a plastic pipe > with caps on the ends and stringit up your mast. This guy said he had > a friend who worked for BC ferries give him a reading on it and > apparently it looks like a super tanker. He said he basically just > copied an expensive custom made one he saw that was made of a whole > bunch of machined little dishes like pie plates. > I was just wondering if anyone has heard or tried this and thought i'd > put it out there. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18303|18301|2008-09-23 15:42:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: Radar Reflector|On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 07:10:01PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > Someone just told me about this radar reflector they had built. > Very Cheap construction: > Take those little aluminum tart cups and attach them in a series of > rings facing out around a pole of some some sort. Put many rings on > the pole staggard so it's nice a tall and put it into a plastic pipe > with caps on the ends and stringit up your mast. I'm afraid that this sounds like a really poor idea on your friend's part. Assuming that he used 6 cups per ring, and he wants a reflector facing out every 5 degrees, that would mean 360/6 = 60 degrees per sector of ring 60/5 = 12 (very precisely) staggered rings Also, every cup - since its top is wider than the bottom - takes 3" horizontally and vertically. This means that you end up with a reflector that is (3 * 6, assuming that the cups meet edge to edge) 18" in circumference or (18 / 3.14) about 6" in diameter and (3 * 12) 3 feet in height. BIG gadget, that is. Now, here comes the kicker: given that the cups are all facing in different directions - this, supposedly, being the desired result - the LARGEST possible surface exposed to a radar would be *one* tart cup at any given time. Call it, what, 2" across the bottom? That gives you (3.14 * 1 * 1) about 3 square inches of reflective surface - not a winning bet. It would look like a pretty art decoration, though. :) > This guy said he had > a friend who worked for BC ferries give him a reading on it and > apparently it looks like a super tanker. [laugh] They're making supertankers pretty small these days, then. By the way, has anyone noticed that this is the standard story when someone describes their favorite radar reflector? I've heard this a number of times before: "I was at sea, and called this big ship, and they said I looked like a supertanker!" By the way, I'm not laughing at you - it's easy to be mislead by this type of thing. There's _still_ very little that significantly beats a reflector "ball" in the rain-catcher position, and - given that there _is_ no magic - there never will be. The rules are exactly the same as they are for optics; consider how you'd set up mirrors to reflect a beam of light at a distance, and you'll see that it's 1) not that difficult and 2) there's only so much that you can do. After that, it's all hype. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18304|18301|2008-09-23 17:07:42|prairiemaidca|Radar Reflector|Hi All: I just assumed that my 36ft Steel Swain was a pretty good radar target and was not contemplating a reflector. Is this a misconception on my part? Or should I have one? Thoughts from those with more experience!! Martin (Prairie Maid)| 18305|18301|2008-09-23 18:33:42|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Radar Reflector|Radar reflectors work, not because they are flat, but because they have internal corner cubes. A flat surface reflects a beam off at an angle exactly the same as it came in. In other words, it is nearly impossible the get a reflection back from a flat surface! Hence all the FLAT surfaces on stealth aircraft and ships. A round mast reflects better than a flat surface because a there is a line on the surface somewhere that is exactly perpendicular to the radar beam, and that is what the radar sees. Those tin cups would be really lousy radar reflectors. A corner cube reflector has a unique property. A beam going in gets reflected three times and comes out exactly parallel to the direction it went in! So virtually the entire beam goes right back to the radar that sent it. If the radar beam is exactly perpendicular to any face, then it won't work well. If it is bent up and the angles are not exactly 90 degrees it also won't work well. Those bright reflectors your headlights hit along the road? those are corner cube reflectors too. Which brings up something really interesting that I am checking into. I mentioned the reflective material in a Sailnet newsgroup and some responded that his radar "sees" the retroreflective tape! He claims to have put some on a day marker near where his marina is so that the radar picks it up. I've got a call into the manufacturer of the tape to see if they have heard of it, and to get a sample to test. One variety is aluminized so it might actually work. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "theboilerflue" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Radar Reflector Someone just told me about this radar reflector they had built. Very Cheap construction: Take those little aluminum tart cups and attach them in a series of rings facing out around a pole of some some sort. Put many rings on the pole staggard so it's nice a tall and put it into a plastic pipe with caps on the ends and stringit up your mast. This guy said he had a friend who worked for BC ferries give him a reading on it and apparently it looks like a super tanker. He said he basically just copied an expensive custom made one he saw that was made of a whole bunch of machined little dishes like pie plates. I was just wondering if anyone has heard or tried this and thought i'd put it out there. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18306|18301|2008-09-23 19:19:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Radar Reflector|On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 09:07:35PM -0000, prairiemaidca wrote: > Hi All: I just assumed that my 36ft Steel Swain was a pretty good > radar target and was not contemplating a reflector. Is this a > misconception on my part? Or should I have one? Thoughts from those > with more experience!! The problem with using your hull as a radar reflector is horizon distance (curvature of the earth.) Even if the sea was completely flat (hah!), if we assume that you have 4' of hull out of the water and the radar is 50' off the water, you wouldn't pop up on that radar until you were less than 10.4 nm away [1]. Given rough water (4' seas), that'll drop to 8 nautical miles - and given that in bad weather, most radar observers turn up the discriminator to knock out the noise, that might be reduced even further. Setting up a reflector at, say, 50' high on your own boat gives you a best-case distance of over 16 miles, and not much loss in rough weather (since your reflector won't disappear from sight until you're in 50' seas, and then you've got other problems. :) [1] For anyone who's interested, it's an easy calculation: the horizon distance in nautical miles is 1.144 times the square root of observer height in feet (the "magic number" is 1.317 for statute miles.) For observer + target height, just calculate the distances for both as above and add them. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18307|18301|2008-09-23 19:50:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: Radar Reflector|On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 06:33:32PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Radar reflectors work, not because they are flat, but because they have > internal corner cubes. A flat surface reflects a beam off at an angle > exactly the same as it came in. In other words, it is nearly impossible the > get a reflection back from a flat surface! Hence all the FLAT surfaces on > stealth aircraft and ships. A round mast reflects better than a flat surface > because a there is a line on the surface somewhere that is exactly > perpendicular to the radar beam, and that is what the radar sees. Those tin > cups would be really lousy radar reflectors. That's the gospel truth. Even a 1 degree misalignment would result in the beam missing the dish by almost 30 feet at 15 miles. > A corner cube reflector has a unique property. A beam going in gets > reflected three times and comes out exactly parallel to the direction it > went in! So virtually the entire beam goes right back to the radar that sent > it. Wikipedia has a good entry on it, unsurprisingly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corner_reflector > If the radar beam is exactly perpendicular to any face, then it won't > work well. If it is bent up and the angles are not exactly 90 degrees it > also won't work well. Believe it or not, it works well even then. As long as the signal enters that cone at all, it'll reflect back in exactly the same direction - although it can be perpendicularly shifted by the maximum width of the reflector throat (which isn't much, usually.) The picture at the above link demonstrates how it works. > Those bright reflectors your headlights hit along the road? those are corner > cube reflectors too. Which brings up something really interesting that I am > checking into. I mentioned the reflective material in a Sailnet newsgroup > and some responded that his radar "sees" the retroreflective tape! He > claims to have put some on a day marker near where his marina is so that the > radar picks it up. I've got a call into the manufacturer of the tape to see > if they have heard of it, and to get a sample to test. One variety is > aluminized so it might actually work. It does. Another Wikipedia entry, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroreflective says: Retroflective tape is recognized and recommended by the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) because of its high reflectivity of both light and RADAR signals. Application to life rafts, personal flotation devices, and other safety gear makes it easy to locate people and objects in the water at night. When applied to boat surfaces it creates a much larger RADAR signature, particularly for fiberglass boats which produce very little RADAR reflection on their own. It conforms to International Maritime Organization regulation, IMO Res. A.658 (16) and meets U.S. Coast Guard specification 46 CFR Part 164, Subpart 164.018/5/0. Commercially available as 3M part numbers 3150A and 6750I. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18308|18301|2008-09-23 22:08:45|prairiemaidca|Radar Reflector|Hi all: So if I wrap a decent width of SOLAS approved tape around my mast close to the top would I significantly improve my radar signature, without adding weight and windage aloft? Martin (Prairie Maid)| 18309|18301|2008-09-24 00:04:52|Ben Okopnik|Re: Radar Reflector|On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 02:08:37AM -0000, prairiemaidca wrote: > Hi all: So if I wrap a decent width of SOLAS approved tape around my > mast close to the top would I significantly improve my radar signature, > without adding weight and windage aloft? Martin (Prairie Maid) Not "significantly", no. In that situation, the key factor is the width of the throat of the corner reflector... and the corner reflectors on the tape are microscopic, so you don't get much gain. I'd say that SOLAS is visualizing a scenario in which some reflection (radar and visual) is better than none - there's no way (not usually, anyway) for a life raft to hoist a good-quality reflector up to 50 feet. On a sailboat, there usually is. Sticking a reflector ball at the top of your mast is a good bet. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18310|18301|2008-09-24 00:24:56|djackson99@aol.com|Welding Tractors|Welding tractors: http://weldingtractor.com/Products/CWT-M241.htm http://www.easternweldingautomation.com/auto_weld.shtml http://www.polytechmetals.com/index_003.htm Welding tractors like these above are not uncommon around Oklahoma for putting together storage tanks and I understand they are used on ships and barges too.? More than one local welder has questioned why I'm not planning on using one to weld the hull plates together for our 74ft origami steel hull.? The recomendation is to bevel both plates to be butt joined so they from a single V, then tack up the plates, then make a single pass weld with a welding tractor.? The tractor automatically follows the V and many use sub-arc welds.? The cost is not a big issue as they can be rented or hired with the experienced welder. I raised the question of distortion and weld induced stress and got looks like I was stupid.? They normally don't work with steel that is only 1/4" but that does not faze them. ? So does anyone have knowledge about using welding tractors for metal boat building? Thanks Doug Jackson Tulsa, Ok www.SubmarineBoat.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18311|18301|2008-09-24 09:01:57|Ben Okopnik|Re: Welding Tractors|On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:24:45AM -0400, djackson99@... wrote: > Welding tractors: > http://weldingtractor.com/Products/CWT-M241.htm > http://www.easternweldingautomation.com/auto_weld.shtml > http://www.polytechmetals.com/index_003.htm > > Welding tractors like these above are not uncommon around Oklahoma for > putting together storage tanks and I understand they are used on ships > and barges too.? More than one local welder has questioned why I'm not > planning on using one to weld the hull plates together for our 74ft > origami steel hull.? The recomendation is to bevel both plates to be > butt joined so they from a single V, then tack up the plates, then > make a single pass weld with a welding tractor.? The tractor > automatically follows the V and many use sub-arc welds.? The cost is > not a big issue as they can be rented or hired with the experienced > welder. > > I raised the question of distortion and weld induced stress and got > looks like I was stupid.? They normally don't work with steel that is > only 1/4" but that does not faze them. ? > > So does anyone have knowledge about using welding tractors for metal > boat building? Isn't SAW only for flat welding? I read up on it a couple of years back - it's a very, very cool thing for production welding - and as I recall, it could crank out huge amounts of weld per minute, but only welded flat. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18312|18301|2008-09-24 09:17:12|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding Tractors|When welding tanks you have a HUGE amount of straight welds that can be done in the flat position, before the sheets are erected vertically. Submerged arc has the weld puddle completely submerged in a little pile of flux. The welds are completely shielded from the atmosphere, and there is no spatter because the flux contains it. You can run huge current densities in the flat position where gravity helps shape the puddle. So for that kind of welding this is a great process. In the case of an Origami boat you have relatively little welding in total, and little of that will be a flat position. So I can't see much benefit there. However on a boat your size a Mig welder could save you significant welding time. That assumes you can deal with shielding the weld puddle from wind, which is the major issue on a boat hull out in the open. Inside the hull the you can weld very fast. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Tractors > Welding tractors: > http://weldingtractor.com/Products/CWT-M241.htm > http://www.easternweldingautomation.com/auto_weld.shtml > http://www.polytechmetals.com/index_003.htm > > Welding tractors like these above are not uncommon around Oklahoma for > putting together storage tanks and I understand they are used on ships and > barges too.? More than one local welder has questioned why I'm not > planning on using one to weld the hull plates together for our 74ft > origami steel hull.? The recomendation is to bevel both plates to be butt > joined so they from a single V, then tack up the plates, then make a > single pass weld with a welding tractor.? The tractor automatically > follows the V and many use sub-arc welds.? The cost is not a big issue as > they can be rented or hired with the experienced welder. > > I raised the question of distortion and weld induced stress and got looks > like I was stupid.? They normally don't work with steel that is only 1/4" > but that does not faze them. ? > > So does anyone have knowledge about using welding tractors for metal boat > building? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, Ok > www.SubmarineBoat.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18313|18301|2008-09-24 10:59:53|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Welding Tractors|Isn't SAW only for flat welding? I read up on it a couple of years back - it's a very, very cool thing for production welding - and as I recall, it could crank out huge amounts of weld per minute, but only welded flat. They run horizontal too.? There is a tray just beneath the joint that holds the flux (I guess the sand like stuff is flux) in place.? A hose delivers it to the front side of the travel and a vacuum pick up the unused material on the back side of the weld.? Magnets on tracks hold the rig to the side of the tank/ship/barge and it crawls along.? --Doug ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18314|18301|2008-09-24 11:54:19|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Welding Tractors|Hi Gary Yes there are now some units that can do horizontal and vertical.? Some use magnets and others use temporary tracks.? The thing I don't understand is that they are not bothering to skip around and run 6 or 12 inch welds and then weld the backside.? They tack the plates together and then run a continuous weld.? That conflicts with everything I have read about building metal boats.? I am going to use MIG for almost all of my welding and I'd like to save time by not skipping around if it can be done without causing distortion problems.? Even if it is just for welding the hull plates together it would save a lot of time.? Is the use of SAW and reducing the HAZ the trick to this?? If so then renting a SAW tractor for a few days looks like a good idea.? Someone in a boat yard is going to know about this but there are no boat yards in Tulsa.? :) --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 8:16 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Tractors When welding tanks you have a HUGE amount of straight welds that can be done in the flat position, before the sheets are erected vertically. Submerged arc has the weld puddle completely submerged in a little pile of flux. The welds are completely shielded from the atmosphere, and there is no spatter because the flux contains it. You can run huge current densities in the flat position where gravity helps shape the puddle. So for that kind of welding this is a great process. In the case of an Origami boat you have relatively little welding in total, and little of that will be a flat position. So I can't see much benefit there. However on a boat your size a Mig welder could save you significant welding time. That assumes you can deal with shielding the weld puddle from wind, which is the major issue on a boat hull out in the open. Inside the hull the you can weld very fast. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Tractors > Welding tractors: > http://weldingtractor.com/Products/CWT-M241.htm > http://www.easternweldingautomation.com/auto_weld.shtml > http://www.polytechmetals.com/index_003.htm > > Welding tractors like these above are not uncommon around Oklahoma for > putting together storage tanks and I understand they are used on ships and > barges too.? More than one local welder has questioned why I'm not > planning on using one to weld the hull plates together for our 74ft > origami steel hull.? The recomendation is to bevel both plates to be butt > joined so they from a single V, then tack up the plates, then make a > single pass weld with a welding tractor.? The tractor automatically > follows the V and many use sub-arc welds.? The cost is not a big issue as > they can be rented or hired with the experienced welder. > > I raised the question of distortion and weld induced stress and got looks > like I was stupid.? They normally don't work with steel that is only 1/4" > but that does not faze them. ? > > So does anyone have knowledge about using welding tractors for metal boat > building? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, Ok > www.SubmarineBoat.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18315|18301|2008-09-24 15:19:35|brentswain38|Re: Radar Reflector|I once read an article in British magazine where they actualy tested radar reflectors including some very pricy, active electronic ones. They found that the old fashioned standard aluminium sheet ones were the most effective of all. A steel hull would be all you need in BCs protected waters, but offshore in a 10 foot swell , where radars are adjusted to eliminate sea scatter, you wouldn't be seen. Puting one at the top of your mast greatly increases the distance you would be seen in a swell. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Someone just told me about this radar reflector they had built. > Very Cheap construction: > Take those little aluminum tart cups and attach them in a series of > rings facing out around a pole of some some sort. Put many rings on > the pole staggard so it's nice a tall and put it into a plastic pipe > with caps on the ends and stringit up your mast. This guy said he had > a friend who worked for BC ferries give him a reading on it and > apparently it looks like a super tanker. He said he basically just > copied an expensive custom made one he saw that was made of a whole > bunch of machined little dishes like pie plates. > I was just wondering if anyone has heard or tried this and thought i'd > put it out there. > | 18316|18225|2008-09-24 15:24:45|brentswain38|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Steve Last Friday I was out cruising. This saturday , in the ring I built at Rankins placed would be OK. I was refering to boxing , not running. Most boxers I talk to share my experience with having had a beer the night before. When I was was a kid we used to use semi porous waterbags. The evaporation of the water on the surface cooled it. Maybe someone could put two beer in the shade, one with a wet towel around it and another without and compare the temperatures. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Brent, You got me, I can't resist. 'No gas in the tank' ? Gimme a > break. I don't box ,do you run ? How does Friday sound ? Beer lubes > the joints ya know, less pain. > Have you ever seen a better September in this part of the world ? > Unbelievable. > Steve > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I've always found anything with alcohol in to taste a lot like weasel > > piss.( Never tried weasel piss, just imagining) When you drink > > something cold , it numbs the tastebuds, which is the only reason > > alcohol tastes better cold. If you have bad wine , serve it very cold > > and you'll numb everyones tastebuds so that it will taste great( > > only thru cold ,totally numbed tastebuds) > > The difference between good beer and bad beer is one tasts less foul > > than the other. I use to drink for the high, but never did like the > > taste, nor the tiredess the next couple of days . > > I always loved getting those who had a beer the night before in the > > boxing ring. Man they have absolutely no gas in their tank. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 09:06:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > In BC in Georgia Strait waters the thermocline is above ten feet > > > > down. > > > > Below that it's 7 degrees celcius , or 45 degrees farenheit > > year > > > > round. > > > > > > [laugh] In BC, you guys probably have to warm your beer over a > > stove to > > > get the alcohol to melt. If you could just come up with a > > > superconductive cable that stretches from BC to the tropics, none > > of us > > > would ever have to worry about refrigeration again. > > > > > > I've fished a number of lakes in which the thermocline was very > > shallow > > > - you could see it on your depth sounder. Useful to know where it > > is; > > > the fish tend to congregate right above it. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > | 18317|18301|2008-09-24 15:27:54|brentswain38|Re: Radar Reflector|I have heard of people putting losely crumpled up aluminium foil in a box section wooden mast, before glueing it up, for radar reflection, with good results reported. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > i often wondered why folk don`t simply fill their mast as much as poss with > those things......mine is solid wood . > jim > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 8:10 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > > > Someone just told me about this radar reflector they had built. > > Very Cheap construction: > > Take those little aluminum tart cups and attach them in a series of > > rings facing out around a pole of some some sort. Put many rings on > > the pole staggard so it's nice a tall and put it into a plastic pipe > > with caps on the ends and stringit up your mast. This guy said he had > > a friend who worked for BC ferries give him a reading on it and > > apparently it looks like a super tanker. He said he basically just > > copied an expensive custom made one he saw that was made of a whole > > bunch of machined little dishes like pie plates. > > I was just wondering if anyone has heard or tried this and thought i'd > > put it out there. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18318|18301|2008-09-24 16:04:49|Wesley Cox|Re: Welding Tractors|I have zero experience with welding tractors, but some MIG welders have a computer controlled "stitch" weld, which looks, and possibly is, continuous and water tight. I'm a TIG and stick man, myself, but a friend who owned a supply house once showed me a weld he ran continuously for about 3" on 1/8" thick steel, full penetration, more or less, with no distortion I could see. This *might* be a factor here. ----- Original Message ----- From: djackson99@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Tractors Hi Gary Yes there are now some units that can do horizontal and vertical.? Some use magnets and others use temporary tracks.? The thing I don't understand is that they are not bothering to skip around and run 6 or 12 inch welds and then weld the backside.? They tack the plates together and then run a continuous weld.? That conflicts with everything I have read about building metal boats.? I am going to use MIG for almost all of my welding and I'd like to save time by not skipping around if it can be done without causing distortion problems.? Even if it is just for welding the hull plates together it would save a lot of time.? Is the use of SAW and reducing the HAZ the trick to this?? If so then renting a SAW tractor for a few days looks like a good idea.? Someone in a boat yard is going to know about this but there are no boat yards in Tulsa.? :) --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 8:16 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Tractors When welding tanks you have a HUGE amount of straight welds that can be done in the flat position, before the sheets are erected vertically. Submerged arc has the weld puddle completely submerged in a little pile of flux. The welds are completely shielded from the atmosphere, and there is no spatter because the flux contains it. You can run huge current densities in the flat position where gravity helps shape the puddle. So for that kind of welding this is a great process. In the case of an Origami boat you have relatively little welding in total, and little of that will be a flat position. So I can't see much benefit there. However on a boat your size a Mig welder could save you significant welding time. That assumes you can deal with shielding the weld puddle from wind, which is the major issue on a boat hull out in the open. Inside the hull the you can weld very fast. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Tractors > Welding tractors: > http://weldingtractor.com/Products/CWT-M241.htm > http://www.easternweldingautomation.com/auto_weld.shtml > http://www.polytechmetals.com/index_003.htm > > Welding tractors like these above are not uncommon around Oklahoma for > putting together storage tanks and I understand they are used on ships and > barges too.? More than one local welder has questioned why I'm not > planning on using one to weld the hull plates together for our 74ft > origami steel hull.? The recomendation is to bevel both plates to be butt > joined so they from a single V, then tack up the plates, then make a > single pass weld with a welding tractor.? The tractor automatically > follows the V and many use sub-arc welds.? The cost is not a big issue as > they can be rented or hired with the experienced welder. > > I raised the question of distortion and weld induced stress and got looks > like I was stupid.? They normally don't work with steel that is only 1/4" > but that does not faze them. ? > > So does anyone have knowledge about using welding tractors for metal boat > building? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, Ok > www.SubmarineBoat.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.1/1688 - Release Date: 9/24/2008 6:29 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18319|18301|2008-09-24 16:16:01|Paul Wilson|Re: Radar Reflector|>>>I just assumed that my 36ft Steel Swain was a pretty good radar target and was not contemplating a reflector. I always thought the same but I was wrong. My friends said I had a very weak return on their radar with my BS 36 even though we could see each other by eye. They may have had their radar misadjusted but I figure I have been pushing my luck. I am installing a radar reflector on the boat. On the subject of reflectors, I know Brent has mentioned this in the past but it's worth mentioning again. Everyone should make sure they put light reflectors on deck. A good visual reflector is good at night for finding your boat when you forget to leave an anchor light on. It's also hard some nights to pick out an anchor light on your boat against a lighted shore. It's been great on those nights to hit the boat with a flashlight beam and immediately pick it out of the murk. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18320|18225|2008-09-24 20:39:59|silascrosby|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Brent, I'll turn down your offer to box with you or with anyone, with or without beer, thanks.Probably not smart to start a boxing career in one's fifties. Beer must be boxing-specific. Never too late start a beer-drinking career, though. Or running. Yep, I would think that evaporative cooling might just work (!). I remember those porous canvas water bags too. It is looking a bit crowded in what you call the 'low-rent district' the past few days. I guess it is from the general crowding everywhere on the south coast. Whose is the 36' blue hull at the gov. dock from the USA ? Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Steve > Last Friday I was out cruising. This saturday , in the ring I built at > Rankins placed would be OK. I was refering to boxing , not running. > Most boxers I talk to share my experience with having had a beer the > night before. > When I was was a kid we used to use semi porous waterbags. The > evaporation of the water on the surface cooled it. Maybe someone could > put two beer in the shade, one with a wet towel around it and another > without and compare the temperatures. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > Brent, You got me, I can't resist. 'No gas in the tank' ? Gimme a > > break. I don't box ,do you run ? How does Friday sound ? Beer lubes > > the joints ya know, less pain. > > Have you ever seen a better September in this part of the world ? > > Unbelievable. > > Steve > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I've always found anything with alcohol in to taste a lot like weasel > > > piss.( Never tried weasel piss, just imagining) When you drink > > > something cold , it numbs the tastebuds, which is the only reason > > > alcohol tastes better cold. If you have bad wine , serve it very cold > > > and you'll numb everyones tastebuds so that it will taste great( > > > only thru cold ,totally numbed tastebuds) > > > The difference between good beer and bad beer is one tasts less foul > > > than the other. I use to drink for the high, but never did like the > > > taste, nor the tiredess the next couple of days . > > > I always loved getting those who had a beer the night before in the > > > boxing ring. Man they have absolutely no gas in their tank. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 09:06:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > In BC in Georgia Strait waters the thermocline is above ten feet > > > > > down. > > > > > Below that it's 7 degrees celcius , or 45 degrees farenheit > > > year > > > > > round. > > > > > > > > [laugh] In BC, you guys probably have to warm your beer over a > > > stove to > > > > get the alcohol to melt. If you could just come up with a > > > > superconductive cable that stretches from BC to the tropics, none > > > of us > > > > would ever have to worry about refrigeration again. > > > > > > > > I've fished a number of lakes in which the thermocline was very > > > shallow > > > > - you could see it on your depth sounder. Useful to know where it > > > is; > > > > the fish tend to congregate right above it. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > > > > > | 18321|18301|2008-09-24 20:47:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Radar Reflector|On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 08:15:55AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > >>>I just assumed that my 36ft Steel Swain was a pretty good > radar target and was not contemplating a reflector. > > I always thought the same but I was wrong. My friends said I had a very > weak return on their radar with my BS 36 even though we could see each other > by eye. They may have had their radar misadjusted but I figure I have been > pushing my luck. I am installing a radar reflector on the boat. It's worth remembering that steel doesn't have any magical properties with regard to radar; a wooden surface that presents the same size target as a steel one will give almost exactly the same return signal strength. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18322|18301|2008-09-24 21:48:35|silascrosby|Re: Radar Reflector|Ben, that is news and interesting. Does that mean that a plywood radar reflector should give as good a return signal as an aluminum or steel one with the same area and geometry ? Steve > It's worth remembering that steel doesn't have any magical properties > with regard to radar; a wooden surface that presents the same size > target as a steel one will give almost exactly the same return signal > strength. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18323|18301|2008-09-24 22:05:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: Radar Reflector|On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 01:48:32AM -0000, silascrosby wrote: > Ben, that is news and interesting. Does that mean that a plywood > radar reflector should give as good a return signal as an aluminum or > steel one with the same area and geometry ? If the surface of the wood is relatively smooth, then - yep. Not enough of a difference to be noticeable. When I was at Hughes Aircraft, working with millimeter-wave systems, we used to use conductive foam dipped in liquid nitrogen as a "black-body target" - i.e., something that would absorb nearly the entire signal. Anything less than that, and we would get some return signal; a sheet of heavy paper was almost as good as anything harder. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18324|18301|2008-09-24 23:01:04|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Radar Reflector|I've spoken to the manufacturer today of the microprism retroreflector material. They are sending me a sample to test against radar. I am going to get someone I know with radar and circle my boat a distance from him to see what kind of radar signature he gets off of my fiberglass boat. Then I'll go up the mast and put the reflective tape on the mast all the way around, and we'll try it over again. I hope to get pictures of his radar screen to show the difference if any. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 4:15 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Radar Reflector >>>>I just assumed that my 36ft Steel Swain was a pretty good > radar target and was not contemplating a reflector. > > I always thought the same but I was wrong. My friends said I had a very > weak return on their radar with my BS 36 even though we could see each > other > by eye. They may have had their radar misadjusted but I figure I have > been > pushing my luck. I am installing a radar reflector on the boat. > > On the subject of reflectors, I know Brent has mentioned this in the past > but it's worth mentioning again. Everyone should make sure they put light > reflectors on deck. A good visual reflector is good at night for finding > your boat when you forget to leave an anchor light on. It's also hard > some > nights to pick out an anchor light on your boat against a lighted shore. > It's been great on those nights to hit the boat with a flashlight beam and > immediately pick it out of the murk. > > Cheers, Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18325|18301|2008-09-24 23:13:06|Ben Okopnik|Re: Radar Reflector|On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 11:00:49PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > I've spoken to the manufacturer today of the microprism retroreflector > material. They are sending me a sample to test against radar. I am going > to get someone I know with radar and circle my boat a distance from him to > see what kind of radar signature he gets off of my fiberglass boat. Then > I'll go up the mast and put the reflective tape on the mast all the way > around, and we'll try it over again. I hope to get pictures of his radar > screen to show the difference if any. Cool! I suspect that trying a large swath of the stuff on flat surfaces around the boat (i.e., one each to port/starboard/fore/aft) would paint a very nice target at reasonable angles of incidence. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18326|18326|2008-09-25 03:27:28|marybraunton|Freebies 25th September|Dear Members Everyone loves something for nothing, and you are JUST 2 CLICKS away from a page FULL of the TODAY'S LATEST FREE-STUFF 1.Click the text link below and it will take you to a new Freebie Group (it is NOT necessary to join it to get to the new freebie page!) 2. THEN simply click on the BIG RED TEXT LINK just below the home page PICTURE (or any of the messages further down!) and you will be taken INSTANTLY to a page full of TODAYS NEWEST FREEBIES! http://groups.google.com/group/freebietelegraph Take care and have a great week!| 18327|18301|2008-09-25 22:39:30|brentswain38|Re: Radar Reflector|I always wondered why high , rocky Texada Island never shows up on my radar at 4 miles , yet a thin fringe of coconut palms on Fanning Island showed up at 11 miles. Like bureucrats, don't expect radar to respond to logic. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 01:48:32AM -0000, silascrosby wrote: > > Ben, that is news and interesting. Does that mean that a plywood > > radar reflector should give as good a return signal as an aluminum or > > steel one with the same area and geometry ? > > If the surface of the wood is relatively smooth, then - yep. Not enough > of a difference to be noticeable. > > When I was at Hughes Aircraft, working with millimeter-wave systems, we > used to use conductive foam dipped in liquid nitrogen as a "black-body > target" - i.e., something that would absorb nearly the entire signal. > Anything less than that, and we would get some return signal; a sheet of > heavy paper was almost as good as anything harder. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18328|18328|2008-09-26 03:19:24|pamelabraunton|Members Free-Stuff (New Link)|Sorry that the new freebie page link I sent yesterday did not work (I forgot that they had changed it!), so here is the correct info: Dear Members If you would like a veritable 'mountain' of free-stuff, take the time to visit the website below. It is packed with great freebies that ALL members can grab, and a new page FULL of the TODAY'S LATEST FREE-STUFF was just added! There is even 250 Free Books you can download, straight away! You are sure to find something of interest, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES when you arrive at the site and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces...but its worth the work!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies! PS: When you have collected a few freebies for yourself, be nice and pass this email message forward to all your family and friends. Its very satisfying helping others and everyone loves something for nothing!| 18329|18329|2008-09-26 10:09:19|Doug|Welding Tractors - Answered|I got a good answer about welding tractors and submerged arc welding off the Yahoo welders group so I thought I'd share it: "Subject: [welding_group] Boat building I worked for a place that would weld 1/4 plate with submerged arc. We tried beveling it and blew through. We tried using ceramic back up and it fell off. We finally butted up the plates tight,ran the weld then back gouged the other side and welded it again. It was fast and would pass an X-ray. The submerged arc got about 3/16 penetration so the back gouging was no big deal. On the other hand there was a lot of distortion but it was worked out by the structure. I personally wouldn't recommend using submerged arc on 1/4 plate. I would gap the plate 1/8, skip weld a 2 on 12, flip it over weld it out. Then flip back over, back gouge to a full pen, weld it out using a .045 or .052 dual shield and then peen out any distortion if necessary. Don't forget that any type of structural pieces you weld to it will cause distortion also. I'm not a boat builder but I've done a lot of plate work. Good luck, Rex"| 18330|18329|2008-09-26 13:32:02|David Frantz|Re: Welding Tractors - Answered|One thing that would have me concerned about such a device is the power supply driving the weld. I kinda doubt that a run of the mill buzz box will handle the duty cycle. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Sep 26, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Doug wrote: > I got a good answer about welding tractors and submerged arc welding > off the Yahoo welders group so I thought I'd share it: > > "Subject: [welding_group] Boat building > > I worked for a place that would weld 1/4 plate with submerged arc. We > tried beveling it and blew through. We tried using ceramic back up and > it fell off. We finally butted up the plates tight,ran the weld then > back gouged the other side and welded it again. It was fast and would > pass an X-ray. The submerged arc got about 3/16 penetration so the > back gouging was no big deal. On the other hand there was a lot of > distortion but it was worked out by the structure. I personally > wouldn't recommend using submerged arc on 1/4 plate. I would gap the > plate 1/8, skip weld a 2 on 12, flip it over weld it out. Then flip > back over, back gouge to a full pen, weld it out using a .045 or .052 > dual shield and then peen out any distortion if necessary. Don't > forget that any type of structural pieces you weld to it will cause > distortion also. I'm not a boat builder but I've done a lot of plate > work. > > Good luck, > Rex" > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18331|18331|2008-09-26 14:25:20|prairiemaidca|Compass for metal boat|Hi All: For those that have had their boats off shore! What type/brand etc. of compass have you found to be effective and where on your boat did you mount it. I see some compasses listed for metal boats, are they what is required or will any decent unit fit the bill for navigation? Also what about electronic compass units. Prairie Maid has two square SS tubes in her cockpit that accomodate the engine and trans. controls and allow for a remote vhf mike. along with being a supply source for engine combustion air and cooling air for the altenator. I was thinking of mounting a compass out there. Any thouhts from those that have gone before!! Martin (Prairie Maid)| 18332|18331|2008-09-26 14:56:48|Paul Wilson|Re: Compass for metal boat|This is probably a little controversial but I never use a compass. I steer using the GPS which is always on and in the cockpit. I have a hand held compass (and back-up gps!) for emergencies. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of prairiemaidca Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 6:25 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Compass for metal boat Hi All: For those that have had their boats off shore! What type/brand etc. of compass have you found to be effective and where on your boat did you mount it. I see some compasses listed for metal boats, are they what is required or will any decent unit fit the bill for navigation? Also what about electronic compass units. Prairie Maid has two square SS tubes in her cockpit that accomodate the engine and trans. controls and allow for a remote vhf mike. along with being a supply source for engine combustion air and cooling air for the altenator. I was thinking of mounting a compass out there. Any thouhts from those that have gone before!! Martin (Prairie Maid) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1693 - Release Date: 9/26/2008 7:35 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18333|18331|2008-09-26 15:02:38|Gordon Schnell|Re: Compass for metal boat|I went to the Fishermans' Swap Meet in Seattle area last spring. A compass vendor was selling them and said that any good compass will work on a steel boat, but requires a special setup by someone who "knows what they are doing". He said he had done many with good success. Sorry, I never got his card. Gord prairiemaidca wrote: > > Hi All: For those that have had their boats off shore! What > type/brand etc. of compass have you found to be effective and where on > your boat did you mount it. I see some compasses listed for metal > boats, are they what is required or will any decent unit fit the bill > for navigation? Also what about electronic compass units. Prairie > Maid has two square SS tubes in her cockpit that accomodate the engine > and trans. controls and allow for a remote vhf mike. along with being a > supply source for engine combustion air and cooling air for the > altenator. I was thinking of mounting a compass out there. Any > thouhts from those that have gone before!! Martin (Prairie Maid) > > | 18334|18331|2008-09-26 15:47:41|silascrosby|Re: Compass for metal boat|Out of hidebound tradition I initially bought a 5" Dirigo and had it corrected with external magnets and swung with a deviation of no more than 2 degrees on any heading. Now ,with the laptop quite close to the compass it needs to be re-corrected. I also mounted a 3" steering compass on the aft brim of the aluminum dodger and it is quite accurate with only the little internal magnets used.( I could not correct it when it was mounted under the dodger closer to the steel of the cabin.)I occasionally take it from its drawer,put it up in its bracket ,plug in the light, and use it for accurate night time steering very close inshore ,along with radar, GPS ,and searchlight. For 99.5 % of the time I use the GPS,mounted below, with or without the laptop charting which is in good view inside the pilothouse from the cockpit seat. My hand-bearing compass is accurate if I stand up straight on the aft- cabin coachroof to use it,but not sitting in the cockpit. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi All: For those that have had their boats off shore! What > type/brand etc. of compass have you found to be effective and where on > your boat did you mount it. I see some compasses listed for metal > boats, are they what is required or will any decent unit fit the bill > for navigation? Also what about electronic compass units. Prairie > Maid has two square SS tubes in her cockpit that accomodate the engine > and trans. controls and allow for a remote vhf mike. along with being a > supply source for engine combustion air and cooling air for the > altenator. I was thinking of mounting a compass out there. Any > thouhts from those that have gone before!! Martin (Prairie Maid) > | 18335|18301|2008-09-26 16:24:50|theboilerflue|Re: Welding Tractors|I used a MIG with argoshield (in inside) for most of the welds that were left on my boat when i got it and found the MIG to produce signifigantly less disstortion there when I switched to stick although it didn't have the penitration that stick does. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Hi Gary > > Yes there are now some units that can do horizontal and vertical.? Some use magnets and others use temporary tracks.? > > The thing I don't understand is that they are not bothering to skip around and run 6 or 12 inch welds and then weld the backside.? They tack the plates together and then run a continuous weld.? That conflicts with everything I have read about building metal boats.? > > I am going to use MIG for almost all of my welding and I'd like to save time by not skipping around if it can be done without causing distortion problems.? Even if it is just for welding the hull plates together it would save a lot of time.? Is the use of SAW and reducing the HAZ the trick to this?? If so then renting a SAW tractor for a few days looks like a good idea.? > > Someone in a boat yard is going to know about this but there are no boat yards in Tulsa.? :) > > --Doug J > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 8:16 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Tractors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When welding tanks you have a HUGE amount of straight welds that can be done > > in the flat position, before the sheets are erected vertically. Submerged > > arc has the weld puddle completely submerged in a little pile of flux. The > > welds are completely shielded from the atmosphere, and there is no spatter > > because the flux contains it. You can run huge current densities in the > > flat position where gravity helps shape the puddle. So for that kind of > > welding this is a great process. > > > > In the case of an Origami boat you have relatively little welding in total, > > and little of that will be a flat position. So I can't see much benefit > > there. However on a boat your size a Mig welder could save you significant > > welding time. That assumes you can deal with shielding the weld puddle from > > wind, which is the major issue on a boat hull out in the open. Inside the > > hull the you can weld very fast. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:24 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Tractors > > > > > Welding tractors: > > > http://weldingtractor.com/Products/CWT-M241.htm > > > http://www.easternweldingautomation.com/auto_weld.shtml > > > http://www.polytechmetals.com/index_003.htm > > > > > > Welding tractors like these above are not uncommon around Oklahoma for > > > putting together storage tanks and I understand they are used on ships and > > > barges too.? More than one local welder has questioned why I'm not > > > planning on using one to weld the hull plates together for our 74ft > > > origami steel hull.? The recomendation is to bevel both plates to be butt > > > joined so they from a single V, then tack up the plates, then make a > > > single pass weld with a welding tractor.? The tractor automatically > > > follows the V and many use sub-arc welds.? The cost is not a big issue as > > > they can be rented or hired with the experienced welder. > > > > > > I raised the question of distortion and weld induced stress and got looks > > > like I was stupid.? They normally don't work with steel that is only 1/4" > > > but that does not faze them. ? > > > > > > So does anyone have knowledge about using welding tractors for metal boat > > > building? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug Jackson > > > Tulsa, Ok > > > www.SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18336|18331|2008-09-26 16:56:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Compass for metal boat|On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 12:02:36PM -0700, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > I went to the Fishermans' Swap Meet in Seattle area last spring. A > compass vendor was selling them and said that any good compass will work > on a steel boat, but requires a special setup by someone who "knows what > they are doing". He said he had done many with good success. Sorry, I > never got his card. "Ulysses" came with a rather nice British Moore compass. Since it was mounted inside the doghouse (all steel), I didn't think that it would work, but one fine day I decided to try swinging it - and lo and behold, it worked just fine. I was able to easily tune out most of the deviation (the worst one was 5 degrees in the NW quadrant), and a correction card took care of the rest. I've looked up "Sestrel-Moore" on-line, and I didn't see anything about it being designed for steel boats. I still have it, although with all the changes I've made, I'll need to re-swing it before I take off again. In my few experiences with compasses on other steel boats, by the way, I've found that most of them don't have enough of an adjustment range. If you get a compass, particularly a big (read "expensive") one, make sure that the store has a good return policy. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18337|18337|2008-09-26 18:18:19|prairiemaidca|More Compass|Hi All: Some very interesting comments. Has anyone had any experience with the ones that they claim are made for steel boats? I wonder if they are any better at getting out the deviation. Any horror stories about certain manufacturers that one might want to steer clear of? Martin.. (Praire Maid)| 18338|18337|2008-09-26 18:46:59|brentswain38|Re: More Compass|A local compas adjuster said a dome compass has a power factor of around 8. A card compass has a power factor of around 400. He said the Dirigo was one of the best compasses made. With the fishing industry in decline there are a lot of used ones available for cheap. He took his steel tape measure and pulled the card off 2 degrees and checked to make sure it went back. That told him how good the bearings were. I think the motion a while sailing , or the vibration while motoring would make it a non issue. He said soft rubber mount your compass to stop engin evibration from pounding down the pin. He said fluxgate compasses on steel boats are a waste of time as a steel boat will swing a compass from 100 feet. Friends were talking about flux gate comasses. I asked them how much they cost and was told $600. That is the price of 6 GPS units. Would they all fail at once? Not likely. You can always check your card compass regularly against your GPS. I put my Dirigo in front of my steering position down below, to show a change of course, then put two mirrors above it , one angled slightly ,so I can see my course from either bunk. Works great. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi All: Some very interesting comments. Has anyone had any experience > with the ones that they claim are made for steel boats? I wonder if > they are any better at getting out the deviation. Any horror stories > about certain manufacturers that one might want to steer clear of? > Martin.. (Praire Maid) > | 18339|18339|2008-09-26 23:16:47|Martin Demers|lister petter PH2 air cooled engine|Hi, I can put my hand on a used Lister Petter PH2 2 cylinder air cooled marine diesel engine, apparently they are industrial engine made for running for a long period of time in a row. the one I found was installed in a life boat on a cruise ship, it was started once a year just to see if it was in good running condition. is it a good choice or am I looking for trouble? any thought on this? Martin.| 18340|18337|2008-09-27 09:34:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: More Compass|On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 10:18:16PM -0000, prairiemaidca wrote: > > Hi All: Some very interesting comments. Has anyone had any experience > with the ones that they claim are made for steel boats? I wonder if > they are any better at getting out the deviation. Any horror stories > about certain manufacturers that one might want to steer clear of? Don't ever buy a Tates. You know what they say: "He who has a Tates is lost." (Old, old nautical joke... :))) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18341|18339|2008-09-27 17:48:14|Paul Wilson|Re: lister petter PH2 air cooled engine|Hi Martin, Have a search through the old posts. There was quite a bit of discussion about it but the consensus was that they are too big and heavy. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Demers Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 3:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] lister petter PH2 air cooled engine Hi, I can put my hand on a used Lister Petter PH2 2 cylinder air cooled marine diesel engine, apparently they are industrial engine made for running for a long period of time in a row. the one I found was installed in a life boat on a cruise ship, it was started once a year just to see if it was in good running condition. is it a good choice or am I looking for trouble? any thought on this? Martin. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.4/1695 - Release Date: 9/27/2008 1:11 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18342|18337|2008-09-27 18:12:32|Paul Wilson|Re: More Compass|A compass meant for steel boats is usually quite big. It has large magnets and large correction spheres to correct for the metal in the ship. I can't see where I would mount one. They are definitely more accurate than normal yacht compasses but still have their problems. I worked on fishing boats for a year and a half and even though they were bigger and more powerful compasses than most yachts, they were quite often a source for complaints. This was in the days of Loran which only gave TDs and GPS wasn't out yet. Damn, I feel old now..I bet all the fish boats now run chart plotters and never look at the compass Every time I have seen a compass swung its always been in a harbor somewhere in flat water against known marks. What happens when the magnetic field of the boat is totally changed when the boat heals about 15 degrees? I have never heard of a compass adjuster taking this in to account and I can't see how a boat could be accurately swung for all heal angles. Honestly, I see no need for a compass other than a small hand held one. One exception maybe for hand steering on a dark night, no stars, big waves, and trying to keep a boat straight down a wave face or some similar situation. A compass will give a quicker visual indication of a veering course than a GPS will. No accuracy in a compass is required for that situation and any cheap compass would be fine. GPS is so much easier, more accurate, and I think, more reliable. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of prairiemaidca Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 10:18 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] More Compass Hi All: Some very interesting comments. Has anyone had any experience with the ones that they claim are made for steel boats? I wonder if they are any better at getting out the deviation. Any horror stories about certain manufacturers that one might want to steer clear of? Martin.. (Praire Maid) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.4/1695 - Release Date: 9/27/2008 1:11 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18343|18337|2008-09-27 18:12:44|Paul Wilson|Re: More Compass|Actually a sticking bearing can be a problem when you have a great deal of motion. It "grabs" in one spot but may be free in other points so the test the compass adjuster may not always work. Every time it hits the bad spot it gets held there for a moment and causes an error in the card. When I worked on fish boats, most of them were the flat/card type. You can take them apart and clean them pretty easily. We normally used Varsol or compass fluid in them but make sure whatever you use doesn't affect the numbers on the card :). It's a bit of a trick to reassemble them without any air bubbles but it can be done. You overfill it so that there is a meniscus and then gently lay the flat glass onto it and screw it down. I don't understand his comments regarding flux gate compasses..it's a bit of a mystery to me how they correct themselves but everything I have seen with them is that they are very accurate compared to a standard compass. I am sure there are good ones and bad but you shouldn't have to pay anything as high as $600 for one. They have come way down in price. I would buy one if I felt the need for one but I don't. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 10:47 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: More Compass A local compas adjuster said a dome compass has a power factor of around 8. A card compass has a power factor of around 400. He said the Dirigo was one of the best compasses made. With the fishing industry in decline there are a lot of used ones available for cheap. He took his steel tape measure and pulled the card off 2 degrees and checked to make sure it went back. That told him how good the bearings were. I think the motion a while sailing , or the vibration while motoring would make it a non issue. He said soft rubber mount your compass to stop engin evibration from pounding down the pin. He said fluxgate compasses on steel boats are a waste of time as a steel boat will swing a compass from 100 feet. Friends were talking about flux gate comasses. I asked them how much they cost and was told $600. That is the price of 6 GPS units. Would they all fail at once? Not likely. You can always check your card compass regularly against your GPS. I put my Dirigo in front of my steering position down below, to show a change of course, then put two mirrors above it , one angled slightly ,so I can see my course from either bunk. Works great. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi All: Some very interesting comments. Has anyone had any experience > with the ones that they claim are made for steel boats? I wonder if > they are any better at getting out the deviation. Any horror stories > about certain manufacturers that one might want to steer clear of? > Martin.. (Praire Maid) > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.4/1695 - Release Date: 9/27/2008 1:11 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18344|18337|2008-09-27 19:11:55|Ben Okopnik|Re: More Compass|On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 11:12:17AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I bet all the fish boats now run chart plotters and > never look at the compass Yep. I was just aboard a local commercial fishing boat, and it was rather amusing to see all the typical crude woodwork, whitewashed bulkheads, rusty deck machinery - and about 30 grand worth of brand new, shiny electronics, including two computers. According to the skipper, at least half of that was required by the government so they could watch him and fine him to death for violating things in the slightest. > Every time I have seen a compass swung its always been in a harbor somewhere > in flat water against known marks. What happens when the magnetic field of > the boat is totally changed when the boat heals about 15 degrees? I have > never heard of a compass adjuster taking this in to account and I can't see > how a boat could be accurately swung for all heal angles. When I was swinging my compass on the Cheasapeake, I did a series of runs under sail as well as under motor - mainly because I wanted to know if running the motor (and spinning the alternator) would make any difference. If there was any, it was all under a degree (i.e., I couldn't see any.) > Honestly, I see no need for a compass other than a small hand held one. One > exception maybe for hand steering on a dark night, no stars, big waves, and > trying to keep a boat straight down a wave face or some similar situation. > A compass will give a quicker visual indication of a veering course than a > GPS will. No accuracy in a compass is required for that situation and any > cheap compass would be fine. That's why I'm fine with a compass that hasn't been adjusted, at least on a long passage in open water. It'll tell me how well I'm doing at staying on course, and a GPS - or even a sextant - will tell me where I am. I can do pretty well with that. A hand-held isn't any good for that kind of course tracking; you constantly have to refocus your eyes. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18345|18337|2008-09-27 19:14:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: More Compass|On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 11:12:17AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > When I worked on fish boats, most of them were the flat/card type. You can > take them apart and clean them pretty easily. We normally used Varsol or > compass fluid in them but make sure whatever you use doesn't affect the > numbers on the card :). [laugh] A friend of mine in the British Virgin Islands tried to refill his with alcohol. It ate off all the markings on the card within a day. As I understand it, mineral oil works well. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18346|18337|2008-09-27 19:56:18|martin demers|Re: More Compass|I have a Danforth Corsair compass, will it work well on my 37 ft steel boat? any thoughts on that? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ben@... > Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 09:32:11 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] More Compass > > > On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 10:18:16PM -0000, prairiemaidca wrote: >> >> Hi All: Some very interesting comments. Has anyone had any experience >> with the ones that they claim are made for steel boats? I wonder if >> they are any better at getting out the deviation. Any horror stories >> about certain manufacturers that one might want to steer clear of? > > Don't ever buy a Tates. You know what they say: "He who has a Tates is > lost." > > (Old, old nautical joke... :))) > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > _________________________________________________________________| 18347|18339|2008-09-27 20:06:04|martin demers|Re: lister petter PH2 air cooled engine|_____Hi, I found and read those posts, they were from last month. are those engines that big? I never had one in front of me but from some pictures I found on the net, they dont appear that big , maybe higher than a small yanmar or volvo, but they are only 2 cylinders (the one I was interested in) so not very longer. would they be a lot heavier because of the density and quantity of the material they are made of? the reason I was interested was being air cooled it means no problem with water cooling, rusting...ect... Martin. ___________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 10:48:03 +1300 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] lister petter PH2 air cooled engine > > > Hi Martin, > > Have a search through the old posts. There was quite a bit of discussion > about it but the consensus was that they are too big and heavy. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Martin Demers > Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 3:17 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] lister petter PH2 air cooled engine > > > Hi, > > I can put my hand on a used Lister Petter PH2 2 cylinder air cooled marine > diesel engine, > > apparently they are industrial engine made for running for a long period of > time in a row. > > the one I found was installed in a life boat on a cruise ship, it was > started once a year just to > see if it was in good running condition. > > is it a good choice or am I looking for trouble? > any thought on this? > > Martin. > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.4/1695 - Release Date: 9/27/2008 > 1:11 PM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18348|18339|2008-09-28 02:12:03|Paul Wilson|Re: lister petter PH2 air cooled engine|>>>>I found and read those posts, they were from last month. are those engines that big? I never had one in front of me but from some pictures I found on the net, they dont appear that big , maybe higher than a small yanmar or volvo, but they are only 2 cylinders (the one I was interested in) so not very longer. would they be a lot heavier because of the density and quantity of the material they are made of? the reason I was interested was being air cooled it means no problem with water cooling, rusting...ect... Martin. Only a month ago? I am losing my mind. According to this, http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/engdata.html , the Petter PH2 is 688 pounds. I am not sure if this includes the gearbox. The gearbox and housing may be a lot of weight. The Petter looks huge to my eyes for a 20hp diesel. See http://www.howardengineerium.co.uk/Images/petter-13.jpg Check it out against any of the data on a conventional engine of the same horsepower. An Isuzu 23 hp diesel for example (http://www.isuzuengines.com/products/product_I.asp?series_id=1 &model_id=23) is about 216 pounds so the Petter is 3 times the weight. A Yanmar is 266 pounds. http://www.yanmarmarine.com/uploads/products/pdf/GM_YM/3YM20_TechData.pdf If you go with keel cooling, you will have a cooler/quieter boat without any rusting or corrosion problems. I think you would be much better off with a more conventional engine. Good luck, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18349|18349|2008-09-28 05:53:42|Denis Buggy|Re: [SPAM]RE: [origamiboats] lister petter PH2 air cooled engine|dear all re petter engines , the purchasers of these engines are engineers not boat owners if you want an engine to start when asked maybe 3 times a year with the aid of a starting handle , you must create an engine with plenty of inertia meaning a flywheel which weighs as much as a man and it must have de-compression levers for the valves as you can then spin the engine at speed and blow the air from the fuel system and you must remember the injector pump needs at least 30lbs psi to prime it in order for it to develop enough pressure to pump the second stage and break the injector valve off its seat at 165 atmospheres . when you have spun the bitch enough to cause insult to anything mechanical -- you then without warning to the gods drop the compression levers and remove your thumb from the handle of the starting handle as the gods wish to break it for revenge as petters do not like to be disturbed from a long sleep you then very nervously continue winding against the compression until you feel the onset of a hernia you then call a truce and take a break and curse the object in various languages and start again , it will start and the pistons and shaft and bearings are oversize some have no oil pump and have a little spoon to splash oil on the piston skirt and each injector has its own fuel system . once it is running and you are in a lifeboat it transforms itself into the most revered object in your known world as nothing will stop it except the hand of man this is a mini commercial marine engine , some of its bigger cousins run on crude oil at 700 revs max and have a 12 cyl engine as a starter motor . there are reasons why it is not an isusi and it has had a chance to show its worth time and time again . regards denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:11 AM Subject: [SPAM]RE: [origamiboats] lister petter PH2 air cooled engine >>>>I found and read those posts, they were from last month. are those engines that big? I never had one in front of me but from some pictures I found on the net, they dont appear that big , maybe higher than a small yanmar or volvo, but they are only 2 cylinders (the one I was interested in) so not very longer. would they be a lot heavier because of the density and quantity of the material they are made of? the reason I was interested was being air cooled it means no problem with water cooling, rusting...ect... Martin. Only a month ago? I am losing my mind. According to this, http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/engdata.html , the Petter PH2 is 688 pounds. I am not sure if this includes the gearbox. The gearbox and housing may be a lot of weight. The Petter looks huge to my eyes for a 20hp diesel. See http://www.howardengineerium.co.uk/Images/petter-13.jpg Check it out against any of the data on a conventional engine of the same horsepower. An Isuzu 23 hp diesel for example (http://www.isuzuengines.com/products/product_I.asp?series_id=1 &model_id=23) is about 216 pounds so the Petter is 3 times the weight. A Yanmar is 266 pounds. http://www.yanmarmarine.com/uploads/products/pdf/GM_YM/3YM20_TechData.pdf If you go with keel cooling, you will have a cooler/quieter boat without any rusting or corrosion problems. I think you would be much better off with a more conventional engine. Good luck, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18350|18339|2008-09-28 07:15:22|martin demers|Re: lister petter PH2 air cooled engine|Paul, very heavy in deed, case close I 'll be looking for a conventional sailboat enginer. I didn't had those web addresses, thanks for the info! Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opusnz@... > Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 19:11:52 +1300 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] lister petter PH2 air cooled engine > > >>>>>I found and read those posts, they were from last month. > > are those engines that big? I never had one in front of me but from some > pictures I found on the net, they dont appear that big , maybe higher than a > small yanmar or volvo, but they are only 2 cylinders (the one I was > interested in) so not very longer. > would they be a lot heavier because of the density and quantity of the > material they are made of? > > the reason I was interested was being air cooled it means no problem with > water cooling, rusting...ect... > > Martin. > > Only a month ago? I am losing my mind. > > According to this, http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/engdata.html , the > Petter PH2 is 688 pounds. I am not sure if this includes the gearbox. The > gearbox and housing may be a lot of weight. The Petter looks huge to my > eyes for a 20hp diesel. See > http://www.howardengineerium.co.uk/Images/petter-13.jpg > > Check it out against any of the data on a conventional engine of the same > horsepower. An Isuzu 23 hp diesel for example > (http://www.isuzuengines.com/products/product_I.asp?series_id=1 > > &model_id=23) is about 216 pounds so the Petter is 3 times the weight. A > Yanmar is 266 pounds. > http://www.yanmarmarine.com/uploads/products/pdf/GM_YM/3YM20_TechData.pdf > > If you go with keel cooling, you will have a cooler/quieter boat without any > rusting or corrosion problems. I think you would be much better off with a > more conventional engine. > > Good luck, Paul > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18351|17696|2008-09-28 07:18:05|matchehzefriends|I wanna get to know you!|You're really cute. I wanna get to know you. Here's my profile with many photos Reach me here. http://mhtgdgd.topcities.com/photos.htm| 18352|18337|2008-09-28 07:39:08|sae140|Re: More Compass|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > it's a bit of > a mystery to me how they correct themselves but everything I have seen with > them is that they are very accurate compared to a standard compass. I am > sure there are good ones and bad but you shouldn't have to pay anything as > high as $600 for one. They have come way down in price. I would buy one if > I felt the need for one but I don't. > > Cheers, Paul Hi Paul, The basic concept underlying self-adjustment is deceptively simple: as the vessel (i.e. sensor) is rotated through 360 degrees, the strength of the detected magnetic field is logged every degree or so. If these results were viewed graphically, then in an ideal world the sensor would sit at the exact centre of a perfect circle. In practice, the field strength usually displays with one or more lobes, and the sensor often not in the exact centre. So appropriate weighting is then applied to a look-up table in order to compensate for these irregularities. A second 360 rotation is often used to confirm this correction, or to fine-tune the correction further. Providing nothing in the external magnetic field changes, the correction remains valid. The really clever units appear to continuously monitor the field for uniformity (i.e. the exact centre of a perfect circle etc) and if a significant change occurs, then a 're-calibration required' error is flagged-up. Standard fluxgates are 2D and often gimballed, but top-of-the-range fluxgates are fixed units which operate in 3D, and so are capable of automatically compensating for magnetic declination as well. Fluxgates have reduced in size from the 'grapefruit' size of the 1950's to the size of a dime today. Power requirements have likewise dropped from Amps to microAmps. They're often included in held-held GPS's at very little extra cost, so I can't see why basic units should cost big bucks. I guess they cost whatever the marine market will tolerate ? 'best, Colin| 18353|18339|2008-09-28 07:42:36|peter_d_wiley|Re: lister petter PH2 air cooled engine|I actually own a Lister air cooled marine diesel and a Yanmar water cooled marine diesel. My Lister is a SL3 made in 1959 with a 3:1 marine box. Not sure what it weighs but a 500 kg chain block picked it up without my noticing anything. Physically it's a little higher than the Yanmar 3QM30H but I don't know about length as I don't have a g/box for the Yanmar. I don't think there's much in it. Weight wise, my guesstimate is they're about the same, but keep in mind that the 3QM30H is one of the old seawater cooled engines, relatively slow revving, manual and electric start, and built accordingly. The new ones are a lot more refined, lighter and you can't hand start them. Not to mention the prices are extortionate in Australia, $15K for a new 30 HP Yanmar. The issues with air cooled engines have nothing to do with weight IMO, unless we're comparing with aluminium block engines. The issues are: 1. A hot exhaust, but if you use an industrial diesel without a water cooled exhaust, same problem, same solution. Lag it or build a water jacket. 2. Noise. Air cooled engines are noisier. 3. Ventilation. This one compounds with the noise issue. You can't seal them up in a nice tight box because you need to get the cooling air in and out. You need a LOT of air. 4. Heat. A consequence of 3. Not necessarily a bad thing depending on your climate but you might not want a lot of hot air in the tropics. 5. Space. The ducting to deal with points 2,3 & 4 is going to take up space you could use for other things. I agree about the simplicity. I bought my Lister because it came available close to me, the price was right, I like Lister engines (I have 2 others) and it all works. If I can get a suitable g/box for the Yanmar and a teardown doesn't reveal anything disastrous, I'll fit the Yanmar for the reasons outlined above. Otherwise, it'll be the Lister fitted in a way that's easy to swap out later on. I have a line on another Yanmar, a 2QM15, which is a bit light on horsepower, but another bird in the hand, so to speak. And I have a 3:1 epicyclic gearbox partly disassembled, waiting for me to get some free time (I'm away from my shop while people throw money at me to design software). Final comment - you need to be *really* careful comparing engines. I don't know anything about the Isuzu referred to below, but you need to know the HP & torque at the rev range you need, not its peak figures. If it's developing its max continuous power at 3000 rpm, what g/box are you going to fit and what size prop? Rule of thumb according to Borg Warner is 100 shaft rpm per knot of speed. I have the pdf of their Velvet Drive g/box installation & maintenance manual. 7 knots, 700 rpm at the shaft, 1800 to 2200 rpm continuous with a 3:1 box. I have never seen a 4:1 box and even 3:1 boxes aren't common near me. That was another reason I bought the Lister, and I also have a Chinese 3.5:1 box, but unfortunately it isn't rated for more than 15 HP at 2200 rpm. My advice FWIW - if the engine works and the price is right, grab it. Better to have a 'good enough' engine ready to install while building the hull than be still waiting for the perfect engine to turn up.... PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > >>>>I found and read those posts, they were from last month. > > are those engines that big? I never had one in front of me but from some > pictures I found on the net, they dont appear that big , maybe higher than a > small yanmar or volvo, but they are only 2 cylinders (the one I was > interested in) so not very longer. > would they be a lot heavier because of the density and quantity of the > material they are made of? > > the reason I was interested was being air cooled it means no problem with > water cooling, rusting...ect... > > Martin. > > > > Only a month ago? I am losing my mind. > > According to this, http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/engdata.html , the > Petter PH2 is 688 pounds. I am not sure if this includes the gearbox. The > gearbox and housing may be a lot of weight. The Petter looks huge to my > eyes for a 20hp diesel. See > http://www.howardengineerium.co.uk/Images/petter-13.jpg > > Check it out against any of the data on a conventional engine of the same > horsepower. An Isuzu 23 hp diesel for example > (http://www.isuzuengines.com/products/product_I.asp?series_id=1 > > &model_id=23) is about 216 pounds so the Petter is 3 times the weight. A > Yanmar is 266 pounds. > http://www.yanmarmarine.com/uploads/products/pdf/GM_YM/3YM20_TechData.pdf > > If you go with keel cooling, you will have a cooler/quieter boat without any > rusting or corrosion problems. I think you would be much better off with a > more conventional engine. > > Good luck, Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18354|18301|2008-09-28 08:03:14|peter_d_wiley|Re: Welding Tractors|I have a Readywelder MIG spool gun that has a stitch mode. So far I've only used it with flux cored wire and not a lot of that - I generally use a stick welder with E4111 rods. The manufacturer claims that stitch mode will weld thin stuff without distortion. It's a pretty simple device, a single control for wire speed and the current is controlled by the magic chips in the handpiece. Runs off of 24V DC or a constant current DC supply from a welder. Once I finish my current project I'll have some time to find out what it can do. Stitch mode vertical up might give me the combination of penetration and bead control I want for 4mm plate. I can do it vertical down with E4111 but the MIG should be both cleaner and faster. I can see a pile of test pieces being broken and checked in the near future too. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > I have zero experience with welding tractors, but some MIG welders have a computer controlled "stitch" weld, which looks, and possibly is, continuous and water tight. I'm a TIG and stick man, myself, but a friend who owned a supply house once showed me a weld he ran continuously for about 3" on 1/8" thick steel, full penetration, more or less, with no distortion I could see. This *might* be a factor here. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: djackson99@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:53 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Tractors > > > > Hi Gary > > Yes there are now some units that can do horizontal and vertical.? Some use magnets and others use temporary tracks.? > > The thing I don't understand is that they are not bothering to skip around and run 6 or 12 inch welds and then weld the backside.? They tack the plates together and then run a continuous weld.? That conflicts with everything I have read about building metal boats.? > > I am going to use MIG for almost all of my welding and I'd like to save time by not skipping around if it can be done without causing distortion problems.? Even if it is just for welding the hull plates together it would save a lot of time.? Is the use of SAW and reducing the HAZ the trick to this?? If so then renting a SAW tractor for a few days looks like a good idea.? > > Someone in a boat yard is going to know about this but there are no boat yards in Tulsa.? :) > > --Doug J > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 8:16 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Tractors > > When welding tanks you have a HUGE amount of straight welds that can be done > > in the flat position, before the sheets are erected vertically. Submerged > > arc has the weld puddle completely submerged in a little pile of flux. The > > welds are completely shielded from the atmosphere, and there is no spatter > > because the flux contains it. You can run huge current densities in the > > flat position where gravity helps shape the puddle. So for that kind of > > welding this is a great process. > > In the case of an Origami boat you have relatively little welding in total, > > and little of that will be a flat position. So I can't see much benefit > > there. However on a boat your size a Mig welder could save you significant > > welding time. That assumes you can deal with shielding the weld puddle from > > wind, which is the major issue on a boat hull out in the open. Inside the > > hull the you can weld very fast. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:24 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Tractors > > > Welding tractors: > > > http://weldingtractor.com/Products/CWT-M241.htm > > > http://www.easternweldingautomation.com/auto_weld.shtml > > > http://www.polytechmetals.com/index_003.htm > > > > > > Welding tractors like these above are not uncommon around Oklahoma for > > > putting together storage tanks and I understand they are used on ships and > > > barges too.? More than one local welder has questioned why I'm not > > > planning on using one to weld the hull plates together for our 74ft > > > origami steel hull.? The recomendation is to bevel both plates to be butt > > > joined so they from a single V, then tack up the plates, then make a > > > single pass weld with a welding tractor.? The tractor automatically > > > follows the V and many use sub-arc welds.? The cost is not a big issue as > > > they can be rented or hired with the experienced welder. > > > > > > I raised the question of distortion and weld induced stress and got looks > > > like I was stupid.? They normally don't work with steel that is only 1/4" > > > but that does not faze them. ? > > > > > > So does anyone have knowledge about using welding tractors for metal boat > > > building? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug Jackson > > > Tulsa, Ok > > > www.SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.1/1688 - Release Date: 9/24/2008 6:29 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18355|18337|2008-09-28 08:54:43|audeojude|Re: More Compass|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 11:12:17AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > When I worked on fish boats, most of them were the flat/card type. You can > > take them apart and clean them pretty easily. We normally used Varsol or > > compass fluid in them but make sure whatever you use doesn't affect the > > numbers on the card :). > > [laugh] A friend of mine in the British Virgin Islands tried to refill > his with alcohol. It ate off all the markings on the card within a day. > As I understand it, mineral oil works well. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * I serviced a flat card compass of mine a couple years ago that had gotten a bubble in it. I used mineral oil in it per the manufactures specification. Its been a while but a lot of the newest compasses are not using mineral oil but something else. some things that have been used as compass fluid over the years by companies. 1.absolute ethyl alcohol 2. kerosene 3. silicone fluid 4. Mineral spirits.. some people have used mineral oil but mineral spirits seem to be the preferred version as it is less viscus. 5. richie compass fluid.. ? proprietary mixture in newer compasses by richie. Though they have advised people to use mineral oil in their compasses if you need to replace fluid and can't get their version of compass fluid. here are a couple links to similar discussions. http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01791.htm http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/003048.html scott carle| 18356|18356|2008-09-28 11:32:30|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: more compass|Met a guy from Gibsons Landing, had a steel boat built with 4 plates of steel who recommended NOT to grind external welding flush (Hutter? Brent knows the design). anyway, they guy had a compass that was not very large that he had had adjusted by a professional many years ago & said that it was fine. GPS might be simple to use & accurate, so a handy gadget, but sort of like pre-digested information (like TV) but when you Really need it, do you want to count on the yank military (for anything for that matter?) So I figure, sure, use GPS but never trust it 100%, (it could be turned off, it could be scrambled, it could be fiddled with due to political whim) and be sure to learn & stick to the basics. Lead line, lookout & log, might be more work, but unlike the alternative, it works, always. If your looking for the compass adjuster that the freighters use, call Tymac Launch Services (they do the pilot launch gig in Vancouver Harbour) & they can pass along name of the guy who does it, an eastern European guy who has been doing it for many years. __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/| 18357|18356|2008-09-28 15:27:35|Paul Wilson|Re: more compass|>>>GPS might be simple to use & accurate, so a handy gadget, but sort of like pre-digested information (like TV) but when you Really need it, do you want to count on the yank military (for anything for that matter?) Hehe. I think if the yanks fooled with the GPS system it would be political suicide. Then again, no one ever figured on a George W Bush. They did it once I believe in the first Gulf War and it was no big deal but to do it now would throw the world in turmoil. People aren't going to get too excited if a yacht runs on a reef but they will get pretty touchy when planes start crashing and missing runways. How would people get groceries without the GPS running in their car? People who drive Hummers would be dropping like flies. We would end up with a celebrity shortage and all the tabloids would go out of business. Sounds pretty good, now that I think of it. Nevertheless, I think with the WAAS and EGNOS systems the Americans don't control everything anymore. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waas and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Geostationary_Navigation_Overlay_Servi ce The Europeans wouldn't take kindly to having it screw up. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18358|18356|2008-09-28 16:38:34|Ben Okopnik|Re: more compass|On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 08:32:28AM -0700, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > GPS might be simple to use & accurate, so a handy gadget, but sort of > like pre-digested information (like TV) but when you Really need it, > do you want to count on the yank military (for anything for that > matter?) Gosh, I thought this was a list concerned with Origami boats. I see that I was mistaken, and that it's dedicated to taking pot-shots. OK, then... Before you get too self-congratulatory there, SHANE, just imagine if running the GPS system was up to the Canuck military. It would be down 99% of the time, since all the money for the program would have been stolen long ago (either by the French separatists or their hyper-English opposition, in order to defeat the other side), and everybody would be required to eat /poutine/ - and pay a (very large) administrative fee - before they were allowed (um, required) to use their non-functioning [C]GPS. Any time you feel like getting back to discussing boats, now... (By the way, have you heard the latest joke about the Canadian government? No??? Give it another few minutes; one will be along soon.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18359|18349|2008-09-28 16:43:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: [SPAM]RE: [origamiboats] lister petter PH2 air cooled engine|On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 10:53:50AM +0100, Denis Buggy wrote: > dear all re petter engines , > the purchasers of these engines are engineers not boat owners if you > want an engine to start when asked maybe 3 times a year with the aid > of a starting handle , you must create an engine with plenty of > inertia meaning a flywheel which weighs as much as a man and it > must have de-compression levers for the valves as you can then spin > the engine at speed and blow the air from the fuel system and you must > remember the injector pump needs at least 30lbs psi to prime it in > order for it to develop enough pressure to pump the second stage and > break the injector valve off its seat at 165 atmospheres . when you > have spun the bitch enough to cause insult to anything mechanical -- > you then without warning to the gods drop the compression levers and > remove your thumb from the handle of the starting handle as the gods > wish to break it for revenge as petters do not like to be disturbed > from a long sleep you then very nervously continue winding against > the compression until you feel the onset of a hernia you then call a > truce and take a break and curse the object in various languages and > start again , it will start and the pistons and shaft and bearings are > oversize some have no oil pump and have a little spoon to splash oil > on the piston skirt and each injector has its own fuel system . once > it is running and you are in a lifeboat it transforms itself into the > most revered object in your known world as nothing will stop it > except the hand of man this is a mini commercial marine engine , some > of its bigger cousins run on crude oil at 700 revs max and have a 12 > cyl engine as a starter motor . [laugh] Thanks, Denis. That's very close to Farley Mowatt's description of the "bullgine" in his boat - and reminds me of some engines I've known, especially a certain nameless English smudge-pot... I can laugh at it now, but there were many times while I was cranking it that I wished I had some dynamite close to hand. Once started, though, it was damn near impossible to kill; I'd swear the damn thing ran on nothing but air just to spite me. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18360|18360|2008-09-29 04:19:33|laurahannington|Freebies 29th September|Dear Members A NEW Page of great Freebies was just added ready for Monday 29th September. Visit Now! If you would like a veritable 'mountain' of free-stuff, take the time to visit the website below. It is packed with great freebies that ALL members can grab! There is even 250 Free Books you can download, straight away! You are sure to find something of interest, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES when you arrive at the site and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces...but its worth the work!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies! PS: When you have collected a few freebies for yourself, be nice and pass this email message forward to all your family and friends. Its very satisfying helping others and everyone loves something for nothing!| 18361|18356|2008-09-29 10:03:34|SHANE ROTHWELL|more compass|Ben, Couldn’t agree more, hopefully we do stick mostly to discussing origami boats & marine related things on this list. Hopefully we also stick to the facts as well. I don’t really see how relevant your “just imagine if” rant is, regardless of how accurate it may be. But I do believe the dependability of a very commonly used system like GPS is,……. isn’t it? And as a result, the dependability of those who run that system is a relevant concern, is it not? But while we’re there, are you saying that there actually ARE people who really do trust the yank military? That would include the moron wouldn't it? He’s the ultimate commander, is he not? If so, aside from being truly in awe, I do hope you are happy with the repercussions of the actions of those you have chosen, repeatedly, to represent you. Undoubtedly, you deserve them. Have a nice day Your mate, Shane (the grotty yachtie) P.S. your are right on the mark about the jokes about the Canadian gov’t, the jokes are earned, especially since the pm started blowing the moron publicly, disgusting, and he certianly does NOT represent Canuckistan with the smallest minoity gov't in our history. __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca| 18362|18356|2008-09-29 11:31:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: more compass|On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 07:03:32AM -0700, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Ben, > > Couldn’t agree more, hopefully we do stick mostly to discussing > origami boats & marine related things on this list. Hopefully we also > stick to the facts as well. I'm always up for that. Let's - as a famous American commentator used to say - review the facts. And by the way, before this goes much further: I'm not a fan of the current US administration; I am, in fact, strongly opposed to their current policies. I am also, however, a veteran of the US military, and am not likely to let a gratuitous slam like yours - particularly one that is completely malaprop and undeserved - pass unnoticed. By the same token, I have nothing but respect for Canadian soldiers - I've had dealings with them professionally, when I was stationed at Ft. Lewis, and have met some in civilian circumstances as well - but have reservations about how they get used by their government. Note that this does not cause me to take random swipes at them. GPS is a highly reliable, highly-available [1] system that's used by millions of people all over the world - is, in fact, the *only* satellite system that works nearly that well and that reliably. It was developed by the US DOD (just like the Internet), became a dual-use technology [2] in 1983, and is managed by the US Air Force. The Russians, the Indians, the Chinese, and a European consortium are trying to put up their own versions; none of them have yet come up to scratch to any useful degree. [3] Millions of people use it daily. I do agree that relying on it to save your life, without any fallbacks, would be stupid - "a prudent mariner always uses more than one source of information for navigation" - but taking a potshot at the US military while saying that is pointless, inflammatory, and makes you look foolish. [1] Highest uptime, by far, of any electronic navigational system in history. [2] Meaning that both the civilians and the military can use it. The US cannot just gratuitously "shut it down" because there's no second-layer system (other than emergency-response systems) for, say, commercial airplanes, or shipping. There are few guarantees in life, but GPS is going to stay powered up as long as the US is around and needs to protect its citizens and do business; I'd call that a fairly reasonable bet. [3] If you have problems trusting the US military, I invite you to carefully consider - and then write a 3000 word essay on - why you would trust any of the above *more*. > I don’t really see how relevant your “just imagine if” rant is, > regardless of how accurate it may be. But I do believe the > dependability of a very commonly used system like GPS is,……. isn’t it? > And as a result, the dependability of those who run that system is a > relevant concern, is it not? Addressed above, in detail. Do you have anything to add? > But while we’re there, are you saying that there actually ARE people > who really do trust the yank military? Why, yes - depending on what you mean by "trust". If you mean "trust them to bring joy to the heart of every pacifist by disbanding, waving flowers, and yelling 'violence solves nothing!'", then, no; no one trusts them to do that. If you mean "trust them to accomplish their mission to the best of their ability", then - yes. Most of the people in the world trust them to do that, absolutely and completely; otherwise, there would be a Russian (or other) flag waving over Washington (and Canada would probably gain a bit of southern territory.) You yourself trust the US military in that exact way - I guarantee it. > That would include the moron > wouldn't it? He’s the ultimate commander, is he not? Commander-in-Chief - yep. On the other hand, he breathes air, too. Should we all stop breathing because of that? > If so, aside from being truly in awe, I do hope you are happy with the > repercussions of the actions of those you have chosen, repeatedly, to > represent you. Undoubtedly, you deserve them. Not me, brother. Not even once. We could talk about the stolen elections, etc., but I've already made my point. > Have a nice day Your mate, Shane (the grotty yachtie) And the same to you. > P.S. your are right on the mark about the jokes about the Canadian > gov’t, the jokes are earned, especially since the pm started blowing > the moron publicly, disgusting, and he certianly does NOT represent > Canuckistan with the smallest minoity gov't in our history. Ahem. Kinda making my point for me, aren't you? :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * *| 18363|18356|2008-09-29 15:10:10|ANDREW AIREY|Re: more compass|Don't knock the American military mate,not in this context anyway.Given the tendencies of our control freak government the first thing they will do is once the european system is up and running is make you have a gps system in your car so that they can tax you on the mileage you do,and monitor whether you are breaking the speed limit or not - one of the incidental advantages of the current satnavs is that you can monitor your average speeds so that you don't fall foul of the plethora of average speed cameras that we have or are threatened with.The next thing will be that you will have to carry a personal monitor so they know where you are at all times.This will initially be implemented for paedophiles on the grounds that the authorities neeed to know where they are and will be extended to the rest of the male population with the enthusiastic support of their wives - can't claim this as a politically correct feminist thing since they don't believe in marriage anyway.We'd got much of the technology that George Orwell envisioned for 1984 by 1984 and have got everything else and a lot more since cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18364|18337|2008-09-29 15:52:42|brentswain38|Re: More Compass|One of mine shattered when I filed it with alcohol. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 11:12:17AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > When I worked on fish boats, most of them were the flat/card type. You can > > take them apart and clean them pretty easily. We normally used Varsol or > > compass fluid in them but make sure whatever you use doesn't affect the > > numbers on the card :). > > [laugh] A friend of mine in the British Virgin Islands tried to refill > his with alcohol. It ate off all the markings on the card within a day. > As I understand it, mineral oil works well. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18365|18339|2008-09-29 15:59:50|brentswain38|Re: lister petter PH2 air cooled engine|I prefer the older slower turning Yanmars. I had an aircooled 10hp Hatz in my boat till 96 when I went to a two cylindre Isuzu. Much quieter and cooler, but much heavier and I hated to give up the hand start option. I hear Princess Auto in Winnipeg has a chinese 10 hp diesel for $650 , new. Don't know how good they are. You are right when you say buy whatever is cheapest and get out sailing. I have several friends who have put Lister aircooled diesels in boats around 36 feet. The only problems were the ones listed above. The newer ones are small enough. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > I actually own a Lister air cooled marine diesel and a Yanmar water > cooled marine diesel. > > My Lister is a SL3 made in 1959 with a 3:1 marine box. Not sure what > it weighs but a 500 kg chain block picked it up without my noticing > anything. > > Physically it's a little higher than the Yanmar 3QM30H but I don't > know about length as I don't have a g/box for the Yanmar. I don't > think there's much in it. Weight wise, my guesstimate is they're about > the same, but keep in mind that the 3QM30H is one of the old seawater > cooled engines, relatively slow revving, manual and electric start, > and built accordingly. The new ones are a lot more refined, lighter > and you can't hand start them. Not to mention the prices are > extortionate in Australia, $15K for a new 30 HP Yanmar. > > The issues with air cooled engines have nothing to do with weight IMO, > unless we're comparing with aluminium block engines. The issues are: > > 1. A hot exhaust, but if you use an industrial diesel without a water > cooled exhaust, same problem, same solution. Lag it or build a water > jacket. > > 2. Noise. Air cooled engines are noisier. > > 3. Ventilation. This one compounds with the noise issue. You can't > seal them up in a nice tight box because you need to get the cooling > air in and out. You need a LOT of air. > > 4. Heat. A consequence of 3. Not necessarily a bad thing depending on > your climate but you might not want a lot of hot air in the tropics. > > 5. Space. The ducting to deal with points 2,3 & 4 is going to take up > space you could use for other things. > > I agree about the simplicity. I bought my Lister because it came > available close to me, the price was right, I like Lister engines (I > have 2 others) and it all works. If I can get a suitable g/box for the > Yanmar and a teardown doesn't reveal anything disastrous, I'll fit the > Yanmar for the reasons outlined above. Otherwise, it'll be the Lister > fitted in a way that's easy to swap out later on. I have a line on > another Yanmar, a 2QM15, which is a bit light on horsepower, but > another bird in the hand, so to speak. And I have a 3:1 epicyclic > gearbox partly disassembled, waiting for me to get some free time (I'm > away from my shop while people throw money at me to design software). > > Final comment - you need to be *really* careful comparing engines. I > don't know anything about the Isuzu referred to below, but you need to > know the HP & torque at the rev range you need, not its peak figures. > If it's developing its max continuous power at 3000 rpm, what g/box > are you going to fit and what size prop? Rule of thumb according to > Borg Warner is 100 shaft rpm per knot of speed. I have the pdf of > their Velvet Drive g/box installation & maintenance manual. 7 knots, > 700 rpm at the shaft, 1800 to 2200 rpm continuous with a 3:1 box. I > have never seen a 4:1 box and even 3:1 boxes aren't common near me. > That was another reason I bought the Lister, and I also have a Chinese > 3.5:1 box, but unfortunately it isn't rated for more than 15 HP at > 2200 rpm. > > My advice FWIW - if the engine works and the price is right, grab it. > Better to have a 'good enough' engine ready to install while building > the hull than be still waiting for the perfect engine to turn up.... > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > >>>>I found and read those posts, they were from last month. > > > > are those engines that big? I never had one in front of me but from some > > pictures I found on the net, they dont appear that big , maybe > higher than a > > small yanmar or volvo, but they are only 2 cylinders (the one I was > > interested in) so not very longer. > > would they be a lot heavier because of the density and quantity of the > > material they are made of? > > > > the reason I was interested was being air cooled it means no problem > with > > water cooling, rusting...ect... > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > Only a month ago? I am losing my mind. > > > > According to this, http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/engdata.html , the > > Petter PH2 is 688 pounds. I am not sure if this includes the > gearbox. The > > gearbox and housing may be a lot of weight. The Petter looks huge to my > > eyes for a 20hp diesel. See > > http://www.howardengineerium.co.uk/Images/petter-13.jpg > > > > Check it out against any of the data on a conventional engine of the > same > > horsepower. An Isuzu 23 hp diesel for example > > (http://www.isuzuengines.com/products/product_I.asp?series_id=1 > > > > > &model_id=23) is about 216 pounds so the Petter is 3 times the > weight. A > > Yanmar is 266 pounds. > > > http://www.yanmarmarine.com/uploads/products/pdf/GM_YM/3YM20_TechData.pdf > > > > > If you go with keel cooling, you will have a cooler/quieter boat > without any > > rusting or corrosion problems. I think you would be much better off > with a > > more conventional engine. > > > > Good luck, Paul > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 18366|18356|2008-09-29 16:06:25|brentswain38|Re: more compass|The European Space agency have been launching GPS satelites which are compatible with our GPS units, so the world won't be dependent on the Yank military. The Europeans don't trust them either. Some of the satelites you are picking up on your GPS now are European ones. More are in the works, as the yank miliary fades in influence . The Europeans are covering our asses. Any goon show is fair game for criticism. We should however, always do occasional checks, comparing out GPS units with our compasses. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Met a guy from Gibsons Landing, had a steel boat built with 4 plates of steel who recommended NOT to grind external welding flush (Hutter? Brent knows the design). anyway, they guy had a compass that was not very large that he had had adjusted by a professional many years ago & said that it was fine. > > GPS might be simple to use & accurate, so a handy gadget, but sort of like pre-digested information (like TV) but when you Really need it, do you want to count on the yank military (for anything for that matter?) > > So I figure, sure, use GPS but never trust it 100%, (it could be turned off, it could be scrambled, it could be fiddled with due to political whim) and be sure to learn & stick to the basics. Lead line, lookout & log, might be more work, but unlike the alternative, it works, always. > > If your looking for the compass adjuster that the freighters use, call Tymac Launch Services (they do the pilot launch gig in Vancouver Harbour) & they can pass along name of the guy who does it, an eastern European guy who has been doing it for many years. > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ > | 18367|18356|2008-09-29 21:30:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: more compass|On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 08:06:22PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > The European Space agency have been launching GPS satelites which are > compatible with our GPS units, so the world won't be dependent on the > Yank military. The Europeans don't trust them either. Some of the > satelites you are picking up on your GPS now are European ones. Not true. The European sats are _being_ launched, the system ("Galileo") is _in the process_ of being set up (it's supposed to be operational by 2013), but there's nothing active yet. When it finally goes up, it's supposed to be complementary to the US GPS system. In addition, if you think that the US system is problematic because it's subject to being shut down (which, I note, it never has been despite Bush's desire to do so) - I hate to tell you, but so is the European one; their phrasing is "subject to shutdown for military purposes in extreme circumstances." Better yet, the US and the EU have signed an agreement to allow *each other* to block each other's signals in case of war. Oh, and - China is also a part of the Galileo project, to the tune of $300M. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_positioning_system Feel free to tell me how this is an improvement. For myself, I don't trust _any_ government - but I do rely on their self-interest. In the case of the US, I consider the interest to be clearly defined and compelling; in the case of the (future) European system, I don't. The entire show still hinges on the US, period. > More > are in the works, as the yank miliary fades in influence . The > Europeans are covering our asses. Heh. If only. Ask, e.g., the Swiss these days about how well their asses are covered - and be sure to mention the Turkish laborers who have flooded Switzerland lately due to the easy mobility brought about by the EU. Then, check the crime stats - murder, robbery, etc. - in Switzerland for the period. That should be enlightening. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18368|18368|2008-09-30 01:52:39|harveyplanes|Entrance Fees vs. Length|I have noticed that in several different countries, the Bahamas for example, that the entrance fees (350 vs. 150) are almost, if not double for boats over 35, then those under 35 feet. I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts, or knowledge on the subject. Also, if this is true in more than a few places, is it possible to build a 34 footer? OR, what is the best length when considering these costs?| 18369|18369|2008-09-30 02:12:09|Aaron|Mill Scale|Maybe this might help someone? I soaked a 12 x 12 carbon steel plate in some phosphoric acid for 24 hours last weekend then rinsed with fresh water and sandblasted it after drying. What was taking 20 minutes to blast in my small cabinet was now done in less than 3 minutes. I bought the phosphoric acid at Home Depot and mixed it with water 3 to 1. I have not tried letting it dry like one may have to on the boat hulls. Aaron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18370|18368|2008-09-30 09:34:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Entrance Fees vs. Length|On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 05:52:36AM -0000, harveyplanes wrote: > I have noticed that in several different countries, the Bahamas for > example, that the entrance fees (350 vs. 150) are almost, if not > double for boats over 35, then those under 35 feet. I'm wondering if > anyone has any thoughts, or knowledge on the subject. Cruising friends of mine, Bob and Sheila, had Phil Bolger design them a boat, the "Loose Moose II", that was ugly as sin (http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/blogs/loose-moose-crane2.jpg) - but 1) it fit under the cut-off length for French marinas, above which the dockage doubled; 2) it sailed very well, fast and safely, according to them (they'd run into a Force 10 storm while crossing the Atlantic, and did fine); and 3) it held all their STUFF, including Sheila's piano (!) and Bob's steadycams (huge movie cameras.) They were very satisfied with it; according to them, it served all those purposes very well. If you're building your own boat, it it certainly worth considering those breakpoints - especially if the design is just a foot, or a few inches over one of the "round" numbers (e.g., 35') that is used to penalize cruisers. If you don't spend much time at marinas, the impact is less - but some countries, like the Bahamas, do have a fee structure based on length. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18371|18368|2008-09-30 10:00:10|martin demers|Re: Entrance Fees vs. Length|is there a list of the entrance fees for all countries, that exist? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: ben@... > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:32:15 -0400 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Entrance Fees vs. Length > > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 05:52:36AM -0000, harveyplanes wrote: >> I have noticed that in several different countries, the Bahamas for >> example, that the entrance fees (350 vs. 150) are almost, if not >> double for boats over 35, then those under 35 feet. I'm wondering if >> anyone has any thoughts, or knowledge on the subject. > > Cruising friends of mine, Bob and Sheila, had Phil Bolger design them a > boat, the "Loose Moose II", that was ugly as sin > (http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/blogs/loose-moose-crane2.jpg) - but > 1) it fit under the cut-off length for French marinas, above which the > dockage doubled; 2) it sailed very well, fast and safely, according to > them (they'd run into a Force 10 storm while crossing the Atlantic, and > did fine); and 3) it held all their STUFF, including Sheila's piano (!) > and Bob's steadycams (huge movie cameras.) They were very satisfied with > it; according to them, it served all those purposes very well. > > If you're building your own boat, it it certainly worth considering > those breakpoints - especially if the design is just a foot, or a few > inches over one of the "round" numbers (e.g., 35') that is used to > penalize cruisers. If you don't spend much time at marinas, the impact > is less - but some countries, like the Bahamas, do have a fee structure > based on length. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > _________________________________________________________________| 18372|18368|2008-09-30 10:12:07|Carl Anderson|Re: Entrance Fees vs. Length|Martin, You might try on the Seven Seas Cruising Association web forum. Seems that they have lots of info regarding that sort of stuff. Carl martin demers wrote: > > > > > is there a list of the entrance fees for all countries, that exist? > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: ben@... > > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:32:15 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Entrance Fees vs. Length > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 05:52:36AM -0000, harveyplanes wrote: > >> I have noticed that in several different countries, the Bahamas for > >> example, that the entrance fees (350 vs. 150) are almost, if not > >> double for boats over 35, then those under 35 feet. I'm wondering if > >> anyone has any thoughts, or knowledge on the subject. > > > > Cruising friends of mine, Bob and Sheila, had Phil Bolger design them a > > boat, the "Loose Moose II", that was ugly as sin > > (http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/blogs/loose-moose-crane2.jpg > ) - but > > 1) it fit under the cut-off length for French marinas, above which the > > dockage doubled; 2) it sailed very well, fast and safely, according to > > them (they'd run into a Force 10 storm while crossing the Atlantic, and > > did fine); and 3) it held all their STUFF, including Sheila's piano (!) > > and Bob's steadycams (huge movie cameras.) They were very satisfied with > > it; according to them, it served all those purposes very well. > > > > If you're building your own boat, it it certainly worth considering > > those breakpoints - especially if the design is just a foot, or a few > > inches over one of the "round" numbers (e.g., 35') that is used to > > penalize cruisers. If you don't spend much time at marinas, the impact > > is less - but some countries, like the Bahamas, do have a fee structure > > based on length. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > | 18373|18373|2008-09-30 10:39:49|Gerrit|Swain Boats|Hi there I have just seen the origami building methode and im very interested in that. There are a lot of pics from the Swain 36.But I didnt find any measurements and things like displacement, prismatic coefficient or some simple accomodation plans for take a better look over this boats. Can someone give me more information about the different types of Swain? I prefer around 32 to 38 feet boats. Greetings, Gerrit| 18374|18356|2008-09-30 10:51:18|audeojude|Re: more compass|The US GPS system is unlikely to be shut down under just about any circumstances other than in local areas. What nobody has mentioned is that they don't have to shut down the entire system in a crisis. They can shut down it for specifically delineated geographical areas if they need to. I think we spend way to much time hating each other because of one or two internationally known figures. Such as the current US president. I voted for him. I also approve of about 30% of what he has done. I disapprove of about 70% of what he has done. Or to be more accurate what he, the senate, congress, and the supreme court have done. All he is is the president. He has a lot of power, a lot but not that much. He only gets to keep doing what he is doing if a majority of the rest of the government goes along with it. Sometimes he goes along because the rest of the government says that they want something done. Congress and the senate are the ones that pass laws and hand out money for stuff to be done. People get all excited about presidential elections but nobody pays attention to our congressmen and senators. Those are the elections that make the biggest difference. Congress and the Senate have the power to stop a president cold in his tracks if they want. I don't know about the rest of you but I have access to the internet and read the local news out of other parts of the world such as australia, new zealand, england, other EU countries, Iraq and the rest of the middle east. I personally know people serving in Afganistan. The whole bloody world is going to hell in a hand basket if you really look at it. The EU has cracks a mile wide they are trying to patch over. The local and national corruption in a lot of EU countries makes what goes on here in the US look like childs play and if you move over to Russia and a lot of the former soviet block countries it is 10x worse. The criminals actually run the government there. I have friends here on their green cards from some of those countries. You should talk to them about how you have to pay off somebody to do just about anything. I don't think most Americans or Canadians have every even seen that happen in their personal lives much less it be the norm. I have been places in the world where it is common for children and adults to starve to death or die of diseases that could be treated with a 10 dollar over the counter medicine. Places where the average cop/law enforcement is corrupt not the exception the way it is in most first world nations. I know of places that women are still stoned to death or put in prison if a group of men attack and rape them. The men just get a slap on the wrist or no punishment. There are still places that slavery is common. From the blatant selling of a person at public auction to the subtler forms of chatlery. I see the wrongs in the US and Canada and when given the chance act against them by voting and writing my government officials in the US both local and federal, but these wrongs just about disappear in comparison with the stuff I have seen and heard about in large parts of the rest of the world. We who live in these first world western nations are among some of the most ignorant and insular of people when it comes to what happens outside our own country. Have you ever wondered why even as most of the rest of the world hates the US that most individuals in these third world nations would give anything to come live in the US. I have had mothers try to give me their (by our standards) very underage daughters if I would just take them with me back to the US. Europe is being buried under a flood of immigrants trying to come live in a first world nation. The US and Canada are dealing with the same thing at a somewhat reduced level compared to the EU. It is going to get worse. The reason is that our country's are the promised land for most of these people. We live in places where they can work and take most of the money home to feed their family's at the end of the day. Where the cops protect them not prey off of them. Where they can take their child to a hospital if he/she is dying and someone will look at them and treat them. This is the promised land compared to where they come from. Here they don't have to worry about being killed as part of a random political statement or because of the color of their skin or who their grandparents were. All they have to worry about here is some mild discrimination because they are immigrants and the same random violence that every one else is dealing with such as is my husband going to beat me or someone stole the radio out of the car. I'm not saying its perfect, but put it in perspective. If you look beyond our small world and see whats happening in all of it, it really will change how you perceive things. If we contribute negative attitudes and hate we are part of the problem. If you truly have problems with something then take action. Write a letter, suggest a solution, vote, run for office. If you can't contribute, then so as not to make the problem worse, just don't say anything. lol.. ok.. i got up on my soap box and have egged on this conversation so im no better than the rest of you rabble rouser's but im going back to reading about boat building now.| 18375|18375|2008-09-30 10:59:39|prairiemaidca|Swain boat info|Hi Garret: If you go into the files section there is some info on how to get Brent's book. It has some numbers you might be interested in. As I'm sure those of us that have built these boats will all agree they are all the same and yet all different. The hulls are pretty much the same if the plans are followed but that is where it ends. Each of us has a unique exterior and interior based on their own criteria of which many things dictate the final outcome. Your imagination, experience and bank account will have a major roll in the finished product. There really are no hard and fast rules except that in my opinion to deviate from the designers basic plan could result in an unsafe vessel. And those that have gone off shore in these boats know they are very sea worthy craft. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 18376|18376|2008-09-30 11:06:23|prairiemaidca|How Many Swains??|Hi All: Does anyone have any estimates as to how many Swain boats are actually in the water. I always see the numbers of this group growing and it would be interesting to know just how many are actually in the water and sailing. Would people be interested in a registry on this site of boat names and locations? Martin (Prairie Maid)| 18377|18368|2008-09-30 11:16:21|harveyplanes|Re: Entrance Fees vs. Length|Noonsite keeps a pretty good up to date list for countries and ports around the world. http://www.noonsite.com/Countries --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > is there a list of the entrance fees for all countries, that exist? > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: ben@... > > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:32:15 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Entrance Fees vs. Length > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 05:52:36AM -0000, harveyplanes wrote: > >> I have noticed that in several different countries, the Bahamas for > >> example, that the entrance fees (350 vs. 150) are almost, if not > >> double for boats over 35, then those under 35 feet. I'm wondering if > >> anyone has any thoughts, or knowledge on the subject. > > > > Cruising friends of mine, Bob and Sheila, had Phil Bolger design them a > > boat, the "Loose Moose II", that was ugly as sin > > (http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/blogs/loose-moose-crane2.jpg) - but > > 1) it fit under the cut-off length for French marinas, above which the > > dockage doubled; 2) it sailed very well, fast and safely, according to > > them (they'd run into a Force 10 storm while crossing the Atlantic, and > > did fine); and 3) it held all their STUFF, including Sheila's piano (!) > > and Bob's steadycams (huge movie cameras.) They were very satisfied with > > it; according to them, it served all those purposes very well. > > > > If you're building your own boat, it it certainly worth considering > > those breakpoints - especially if the design is just a foot, or a few > > inches over one of the "round" numbers (e.g., 35') that is used to > > penalize cruisers. If you don't spend much time at marinas, the impact > > is less - but some countries, like the Bahamas, do have a fee structure > > based on length. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 18378|18368|2008-09-30 12:52:14|harveyplanes|Re: Entrance Fees vs. Length|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: >Thanks for the thoughts. I have to admit though....that is one ugly boat :) Being able to take the piano is a plus. Glad it's working for them though. That's all that counts anyway. Cheers! > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 05:52:36AM -0000, harveyplanes wrote: > > I have noticed that in several different countries, the Bahamas for > > example, that the entrance fees (350 vs. 150) are almost, if not > > double for boats over 35, then those under 35 feet. I'm wondering if > > anyone has any thoughts, or knowledge on the subject. > > Cruising friends of mine, Bob and Sheila, had Phil Bolger design them a > boat, the "Loose Moose II", that was ugly as sin > (http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/blogs/loose-moose-crane2.jpg) - but > 1) it fit under the cut-off length for French marinas, above which the > dockage doubled; 2) it sailed very well, fast and safely, according to > them (they'd run into a Force 10 storm while crossing the Atlantic, and > did fine); and 3) it held all their STUFF, including Sheila's piano (!) > and Bob's steadycams (huge movie cameras.) They were very satisfied with > it; according to them, it served all those purposes very well. > > If you're building your own boat, it it certainly worth considering > those breakpoints - especially if the design is just a foot, or a few > inches over one of the "round" numbers (e.g., 35') that is used to > penalize cruisers. If you don't spend much time at marinas, the impact > is less - but some countries, like the Bahamas, do have a fee structure > based on length. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18379|18376|2008-09-30 12:55:55|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] How Many Swains??|Martin, a very good idea and I would certainly fill in the details of my BS36 if such a database were available. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of prairiemaidca Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:06 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] How Many Swains?? Hi All: Does anyone have any estimates as to how many Swain boats are actually in the water. I always see the numbers of this group growing and it would be interesting to know just how many are actually in the water and sailing. Would people be interested in a registry on this site of boat names and locations? Martin (Prairie Maid) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1698 - Release Date: 9/29/2008 7:25 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1698 - Release Date: 9/29/2008 7:25 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18380|18368|2008-09-30 13:41:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: Entrance Fees vs. Length|On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 04:52:12PM -0000, harveyplanes wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > >Thanks for the thoughts. I have to admit though....that is one ugly > boat :) Being able to take the piano is a plus. Glad it's working for > them though. That's all that counts anyway. > Cheers! Actually - I've found Bob's blog since I posted this morning - they lost the LMII (lightning strike) and now have a Cal with an electric engine in it. However, there are other people building and sailing that same design. Phil Bolger often designs weird-looking stuff that works amazingly well; in fact, his stitch-and-glue designs in plywood are very similar to Brent's steel stuff (people have built these in up to 50' LOA!) His wife (who is also theoretically a boat designer) is a raving lunatic, though: a number of years ago, when I tried to commission Phil to design a sailboat for me, she intercepted all my faxes to him, tried to _force_ me to accept a *powerboat* design from her instead, and then went absolutely insane, using filthy insults and ranting at me when I refused. Quite the interesting experience, that was. :) As Knut here has mentioned, "Most of the crazy people have NOT been locked up." -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18381|18368|2008-09-30 14:14:06|harveyplanes|Re: Entrance Fees vs. Length|Hahaha, I think I'll stick with a 'normal' design :) Not that Phil's designs (and of course his wife's) aren't functional, but a little out there for me. Hilarious story though...I take it you never got that design from them :) I'll think I'll be just as happy with a BS 31 or 36 just as soon as I can sell my Catalina 30. It'll be tough, but I think I can learn to deal :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 04:52:12PM -0000, harveyplanes wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > >Thanks for the thoughts. I have to admit though....that is one ugly > > boat :) Being able to take the piano is a plus. Glad it's working for > > them though. That's all that counts anyway. > > Cheers! > > Actually - I've found Bob's blog since I posted this morning - they lost > the LMII (lightning strike) and now have a Cal with an electric engine > in it. However, there are other people building and sailing that same > design. > > Phil Bolger often designs weird-looking stuff that works amazingly well; > in fact, his stitch-and-glue designs in plywood are very similar to > Brent's steel stuff (people have built these in up to 50' LOA!) His wife > (who is also theoretically a boat designer) is a raving lunatic, though: > a number of years ago, when I tried to commission Phil to design a > sailboat for me, she intercepted all my faxes to him, tried to _force_ > me to accept a *powerboat* design from her instead, and then went > absolutely insane, using filthy insults and ranting at me when I > refused. Quite the interesting experience, that was. :) > > As Knut here has mentioned, "Most of the crazy people have NOT been > locked up." > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18382|18376|2008-09-30 14:48:57|Paul Wilson|Re: How Many Swains??|I am interested as well. If you go to the database section, there is a registry but only 4 people have signed it. I would guess that many Swain owners don't know about the group. They are too busy sailing or building. Cheers, Paul Hi All: Does anyone have any estimates as to how many Swain boats are actually in the water. I always see the numbers of this group growing and it would be interesting to know just how many are actually in the water and sailing. Would people be interested in a registry on this site of boat names and locations? Martin (Prairie Maid) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18383|18373|2008-09-30 16:24:15|brentswain38|Re: Swain Boats|Gerrit The 36 footer is 35ft 5 inches overall on deck, 10ft 6 inch beam 17,280 lbs empty . The twin keeler is 4 ft draft ,and 5ft 10 for the single keeler empty. The prismatic coeficient is .54. The mast is 46 feet above the cabintop. The standard interior is a galley on one side of the wheelhouse , a quarter berth in a tiny cabin opposite,or head in the aft end of the wheelhouse, an inside steering seat in front of that. Ahead of that there is a choice of settee berths with a pilot berth outboard, or a dinette with a setteee berth outside of that . Next , ahead of the mnast is a head , or storage on eone side , and a heater opposite. Ahead of that is the forepeak berth. The 31 is 31 ft overall, 10 ft beam , 4 ft draft for the twin keeler, 5 ft for the single keeler, prismatic coeficcient of .54. displacement of 12,000 lbs empty. The mast is 40 ft above the cabintop. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > Hi there > > I have just seen the origami building methode and im very interested > in that. There are a lot of pics from the Swain 36.But I didnt find > any measurements and things like displacement, prismatic coefficient > or some simple accomodation plans for take a better look over this boats. > > Can someone give me more information about the different types of > Swain? I prefer around 32 to 38 feet boats. > > > Greetings, > Gerrit > | 18384|18384|2008-09-30 16:29:23|brentswain38|Anchor winch drum|When you weld the sides of the anchor winch drum to the centre , the shrinkage of the welds causes the outsides of the drum to warp . Recently I found a way to eliminate this problem. I heated a small area of the outside of the ends cherry red, them quenched it with cold water. I did this several times , shrinking the outside. Then it was far easier to tap it straight, and it stayed straight. Brent| 18385|18376|2008-09-30 16:37:21|brentswain38|Re: How Many Swains??|I've done about three dozen and Evan has probably done a similar number. Ken has done several, but with the book and DVD available, far more owners are now building their own . I estimate around 200 have been built. Most prefer a degree of anonymity. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I am interested as well. If you go to the database section, there is a > registry but only 4 people have signed it. I would guess that many Swain > owners don't know about the group. They are too busy sailing or building. > > Cheers, Paul > > Hi All: Does anyone have any estimates as to how many Swain boats are > actually in the water. I always see the numbers of this group growing > and it would be interesting to know just how many are actually in the > water and sailing. Would people be interested in a registry on this > site of boat names and locations? Martin (Prairie Maid) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18386|18386|2008-09-30 16:42:17|prairiemaidca|Database registry|I just tried to put Prairie Maid in and it won't take the info. Oh Well! Martin| 18387|18356|2008-09-30 16:48:04|brentswain38|Re: more compass|One needs only to step aboard a Hutton , see her heel dramatically as the owner grabs for his coffee cup to stop it from capsizing , to see the value of Huttons judgement. Cokeheads come up with some wierd theories. Unground welds are where the epoxy wears down quickest, and eventually becomes a maintenance headache, far beyond the time initially saved , unles the boat is rarely used. You can save grinding time by sticking to 1/8th 6011,and avoiding putting too much weld on seams that are to be ground ,in the first place. As long as all ground welds are welded both sides , there is no structural advantage to leaving them unground , and jusifying leaving them unground is simply trying to justify ones short term laziness. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Met a guy from Gibsons Landing, had a steel boat built with 4 plates of steel who recommended NOT to grind external welding flush (Hutter? Brent knows the design). anyway, they guy had a compass that was not very large that he had had adjusted by a professional many years ago & said that it was fine. > > GPS might be simple to use & accurate, so a handy gadget, but sort of like pre-digested information (like TV) but when you Really need it, do you want to count on the yank military (for anything for that matter?) > > So I figure, sure, use GPS but never trust it 100%, (it could be turned off, it could be scrambled, it could be fiddled with due to political whim) and be sure to learn & stick to the basics. Lead line, lookout & log, might be more work, but unlike the alternative, it works, always. > > If your looking for the compass adjuster that the freighters use, call Tymac Launch Services (they do the pilot launch gig in Vancouver Harbour) & they can pass along name of the guy who does it, an eastern European guy who has been doing it for many years. > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ > | 18388|18386|2008-09-30 16:53:31|silascrosby|Re: Database registry|I would also be interested in a registry. It would be particularly useful for prospective builders. For example,Carl of Moonflower could probably have used a registry when he did his boat tour before he started building. Every time I chat with another owner/builder I get new ideas for improvements. Those who don't want to sacrifice their anonymity needn't make an entry. Anyone know how to set up a 'registry' on this forum ? Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > I just tried to put Prairie Maid in and it won't take the info. Oh > Well! Martin > | 18389|18373|2008-09-30 18:25:36|Gerrit|Re: Swain Boats|Hi Brent Thank you for that informations. Sounds very interistant... One point for me is the headroom in that ships. Can you tell me what headroom the 36 feeter has? And you wrote the price for the plans in dollar. Is it US or CDN Dollar? And how to send from switzerland? Pls give a short e-mail for that.. Thanks, Gerrit --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Gerrit > The 36 footer is 35ft 5 inches overall on deck, 10ft 6 inch beam > 17,280 lbs empty . The twin keeler is 4 ft draft ,and 5ft 10 for the > single keeler empty. The prismatic coeficient is .54. The mast is 46 > feet above the cabintop. > The standard interior is a galley on one side of the wheelhouse , a > quarter berth in a tiny cabin opposite,or head in the aft end of the > wheelhouse, an inside steering seat in front of that. Ahead of that > there is a choice of settee berths with a pilot berth outboard, or a > dinette with a setteee berth outside of that . Next , ahead of the > mnast is a head , or storage on eone side , and a heater opposite. > Ahead of that is the forepeak berth. > The 31 is 31 ft overall, 10 ft beam , 4 ft draft for the twin keeler, > 5 ft for the single keeler, prismatic coeficcient of .54. displacement > of 12,000 lbs empty. The mast is 40 ft above the cabintop. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > > > Hi there > > > > I have just seen the origami building methode and im very interested > > in that. There are a lot of pics from the Swain 36.But I didnt find > > any measurements and things like displacement, prismatic coefficient > > or some simple accomodation plans for take a better look over this > boats. > > > > Can someone give me more information about the different types of > > Swain? I prefer around 32 to 38 feet boats. > > > > > > Greetings, > > Gerrit > > > | 18390|18373|2008-09-30 22:50:38|brentswain38|Re: Swain Boats|I usually go for 6ft 2 inches , but by dropping the floor lower, people who are 6 ft 6 have been able to get full headroom. In the wheelhouse you could get 7 ft headroom if you needed it. With the 31 , 6 ft 2 is pretty well max for the trunk cabin altho one could get more in the wheelhouse.. The US and Canadian dollars are more or less at par these days . Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > Hi Brent > > Thank you for that informations. Sounds very interistant... > > One point for me is the headroom in that ships. Can you tell me what > headroom the 36 feeter has? > > And you wrote the price for the plans in dollar. Is it US or CDN Dollar? > And how to send from switzerland? Pls give a short e-mail for that.. > > Thanks, Gerrit > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Gerrit > > The 36 footer is 35ft 5 inches overall on deck, 10ft 6 inch beam > > 17,280 lbs empty . The twin keeler is 4 ft draft ,and 5ft 10 for the > > single keeler empty. The prismatic coeficient is .54. The mast is 46 > > feet above the cabintop. > > The standard interior is a galley on one side of the wheelhouse , a > > quarter berth in a tiny cabin opposite,or head in the aft end of the > > wheelhouse, an inside steering seat in front of that. Ahead of that > > there is a choice of settee berths with a pilot berth outboard, or a > > dinette with a setteee berth outside of that . Next , ahead of the > > mnast is a head , or storage on eone side , and a heater opposite. > > Ahead of that is the forepeak berth. > > The 31 is 31 ft overall, 10 ft beam , 4 ft draft for the twin keeler, > > 5 ft for the single keeler, prismatic coeficcient of .54. displacement > > of 12,000 lbs empty. The mast is 40 ft above the cabintop. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > > > > > Hi there > > > > > > I have just seen the origami building methode and im very interested > > > in that. There are a lot of pics from the Swain 36.But I didnt find > > > any measurements and things like displacement, prismatic coefficient > > > or some simple accomodation plans for take a better look over this > > boats. > > > > > > Can someone give me more information about the different types of > > > Swain? I prefer around 32 to 38 feet boats. > > > > > > > > > Greetings, > > > Gerrit > > > > > > | 18391|18386|2008-09-30 23:46:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Database registry|On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 08:53:28PM -0000, silascrosby wrote: > I would also be interested in a registry. It would be particularly > useful for prospective builders. For example,Carl of Moonflower could > probably have used a registry when he did his boat tour before he > started building. > Every time I chat with another owner/builder I get new ideas for > improvements. > Those who don't want to sacrifice their anonymity needn't make an > entry. > Anyone know how to set up a 'registry' on this forum ? I could code up a program to set one up on my website pretty easily. Any particular features you folks want to have in it? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18392|18386|2008-10-01 01:45:24|Paul Thompson|Re: Database registry|On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 08:53:28PM -0000, silascrosby wrote: >> I would also be interested in a registry. It would be particularly >> useful for prospective builders. For example,Carl of Moonflower could >> probably have used a registry when he did his boat tour before he >> started building. >> Every time I chat with another owner/builder I get new ideas for >> improvements. >> Those who don't want to sacrifice their anonymity needn't make an >> entry. >> Anyone know how to set up a 'registry' on this forum ? > > I could code up a program to set one up on my website pretty easily. Any > particular features you folks want to have in it? > Aw, Ben, I am not sure that you should be the one to do this. You being one of those dammed untrustworthy Yanks an all that. Gawd knows what you might do with the data. sell it to the Ruskies? :-) Paul Thompson| 18393|18356|2008-10-01 05:34:29|sae140|Re: more compass|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > The European sats are _being_ launched, the system ("Galileo") > is _in the process_ of being set up (it's supposed to be operational > by 2013), but there's nothing active yet. When it finally goes up, > it's supposed to be complementary to the US GPS system. *Complementary* is exactly the right word - you won't be able to pick up Galileo signals on existing GPS receivers, which I suspect is flawed thinking. So who exactly is going to USE the Galileo system ? And where is the revenue going to come from ? (rhetotical questions - I've already seen the sales pitch). But does anyone REALLY need centimetric accuracy ? Personally, I think this is yet another 'Concorde' project - more about symbolism (or political penis-envy) than real need. Current status is that the first experimental birds are already flying, and the remainder are now in the process of being built. If this sounds like a protracted project, bear in mind that although the American NavStar system was conceived in the 1960s, with the first experimental satellite being launched in 1978, the full constellation of 24 (21 on-line, 3 spare) birds weren't fully operational until 1995. These are BIG (and very expensive - to the taxpayer) projects. Colin| 18394|18394|2008-10-01 05:51:05|sae140|Another way of making on-board electricity ?|From time to time on this forum we've discussed methods of making electricity on-board - so here's another one for consideration: Yesterday an experimental device was lowered into the River Humber on England's north-east coast to generate electricity using tidal power. The technique being used is that of oars/paddles being oscillated back and forth. Now anyone who has seen a pendulum self-steering system in operation will be aware of the tremendous power in the action of tilting a blade across even a modest flow of water. So - how about a pendulum oar oscillating back and forth across the width of the transom ? If the oar was relatively small it shouldn't affect the boat's steering, but if it did, then two opposing oars could be used. The clever bit would be translating the pendulous movement into useable electricity (that's where Ben and his mates come into the equation ...) Advantages: retractable (unlike a fixed propellor); would work at very slow speed (unlike a towed propellor); and not 'in your face' like a wind-genny. Disadvantages: relatively vulnerable and complex mechanism. Any thoughts ? Colin| 18395|18386|2008-10-01 08:15:22|audeojude|Re: Database registry|I set up the two databases on this site a long time ago. one is a boat registry and the other a contact database. there are a few entries in their already. If anyone wants more fields in them just let me know and I will add them. Scott ps. if their is some functional problem (someone said that they had tried to use it and couldn't) then let me know and I will play with it.| 18396|18386|2008-10-01 08:18:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: Database registry|On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 06:45:23PM +1300, Paul Thompson wrote: > On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 08:53:28PM -0000, silascrosby wrote: > >> I would also be interested in a registry. It would be particularly > >> useful for prospective builders. For example,Carl of Moonflower could > >> probably have used a registry when he did his boat tour before he > >> started building. > >> Every time I chat with another owner/builder I get new ideas for > >> improvements. > >> Those who don't want to sacrifice their anonymity needn't make an > >> entry. > >> Anyone know how to set up a 'registry' on this forum ? > > > > I could code up a program to set one up on my website pretty easily. Any > > particular features you folks want to have in it? > > Aw, Ben, I am not sure that you should be the one to do this. You > being one of those dammed untrustworthy Yanks an all that. Gawd knows > what you might do with the data. sell it to the Ruskies? :-) [laugh] I've always found it highly amusing to poke at the "Red panic" wherever I've encountered it. When someone around me starts doing some version of "the Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!" act, I put on my sinister look - the one wit the evil grin - and say in my (natural and real, since I was born and raised there) Russian accent, "They're already *HERE*, Comrade. *I* am Russian." This is particularly effective since I'm usually the biggest guy in the room. Watching the mental processes (and sometimes, the momentary panic response) rapidly clicking behind their eyes at that point can be very entertaining. Learning often occurs shortly thereafter. :) I suspect I've contributed, at least a little, to a general decrease in xenophobia. So, in short, I'm one those "different" kinds of Yank. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18397|18356|2008-10-01 08:23:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: more compass|On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 09:34:27AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > The European sats are _being_ launched, the system ("Galileo") > > is _in the process_ of being set up (it's supposed to be operational > > by 2013), but there's nothing active yet. When it finally goes up, > > it's supposed to be complementary to the US GPS system. > > *Complementary* is exactly the right word - you won't be able to pick > up Galileo signals on existing GPS receivers, which I suspect is > flawed thinking. Colin, are you sure? I may be wrong, of course, but as I understood it, Galileo was supposed to dovetail with the current system - i.e., their signals were indeed supposed to be usable by current GPS receivers - but it would be under ESA control (a.k.a. "political football") rather than the US. > So who exactly is going to USE the Galileo system ? GLONASS is, of course, a much bigger joke of the same sort. > And where is the revenue going to come from ? (rhetotical questions - > I've already seen the sales pitch). But does anyone REALLY need > centimetric accuracy ? Personally, I think this is yet another > 'Concorde' project - more about symbolism (or political penis-envy) > than real need. I completely and emphatically agree. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18398|18394|2008-10-01 08:43:09|Ben Okopnik|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 09:51:03AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > >From time to time on this forum we've discussed methods of making > electricity on-board - so here's another one for consideration: > > Yesterday an experimental device was lowered into the River Humber on > England's north-east coast to generate electricity using tidal power. > The technique being used is that of oars/paddles being oscillated back > and forth. The Israelis have a system in operation - some 15 or 20 years old, I believe - of hinged "rafts" (two flat sealed metal boxes, essentially) with a linear generator on the top and on the bottom. As the waves flex the connection, the generators get either extended or compressed... simple and elegant. The Danes do something a little different: they attach a large tube to the side of a cliff over water, drop a shaft down through it, and attach a large float to the bottom end. As the shaft pumps, it drives a linear generator inside the tube. In Hawaii, there's a hydrothermal rig - a temperature-differential driven pump (essentially a pipe several thousand feet long that hangs in the water) that cycles cold water from way below the thermocline. It drives a large rotor... *and* supplies very cold water which is now used to support a very large commercial lobster-raising operation. (I find the idea of cold-water lobsters from Hawaii to be an amusing mind-bender.) There's been a lot of experimentation with power from the ocean in the recent years, and I'm very glad to see it happening. I've actually considered setting up a miniature (folding) version of the Israeli system: some rigid floating media that can be assembled quickly and easily when you're at anchor. You'd have a big flat sheet of "stuff" floating behind you, but I can't see a problem with that except in crowded anchorages... > Now anyone who has seen a pendulum self-steering system in operation > will be aware of the tremendous power in the action of tilting a blade > across even a modest flow of water. > > So - how about a pendulum oar oscillating back and forth across the > width of the transom ? If the oar was relatively small it shouldn't > affect the boat's steering, but if it did, then two opposing oars > could be used. Either one of these would create a huge amount of drag. That's where the power would come from, but you'd lose more than you gained. On the other hand, if you made the tilt/rotation highly adjustable, you could "trade off" speed for power as you sailed: say, give up a knot in exchange for X number of amp-hours - that being what you're doing with towed generators. Hmm. If this system is simpler than a towed generator, that could be a pretty good gain. It's worth taking a look at. > The clever bit would be translating the pendulous movement into > useable electricity (that's where Ben and his mates come into the > equation ...) Uh-uh. If the idea's already been executed, filtering it through Brent's brain is the best way to go. He'll come up with a way to do it for CDN$3.95, and it'll be stronger than a Sherman tank. :))) > Advantages: retractable (unlike a fixed propellor); would work at very > slow speed (unlike a towed propellor); and not 'in your face' like a > wind-genny. > Disadvantages: relatively vulnerable and complex mechanism. Not if it's shorter than your rudder. Besides, just like in self-steering systems, you could make the rudder "kick up" if it hits something. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18399|18399|2008-10-01 10:18:10|prairiemaidca|Data Base|Hi All: I tried again to put Prairie Maid into the Data Base and this time it acccepted the information. Third time lucky. Martin..| 18400|18400|2008-10-01 10:20:41|prairiemaidca|E.U. GPS|Hi All: I remember watching a documentary on the subject quite along time ago and if I remember correctly they said you would have to have a different GPS unit to access the system. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 18401|18399|2008-10-01 12:25:46|silascrosby|Re: Data Base|Just entered my data into existing database. Looks fine. I was unaware of it. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi All: I tried again to put Prairie Maid into the Data Base and this > time it acccepted the information. Third time lucky. Martin.. > | 18402|18394|2008-10-01 16:09:27|brentswain38|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|I once read of a singlehanded engineer who rigged the same mechanism as a self winding watch, but much bigger, to generate electricity for sailing across the Atlantic. He generated so much electricity that he had to keep the thing tied off most of the time to prevent overchaging his batteries. It seems that, given the constant motion of a small boat at sea, it would be simple to rig a pendulum with a weight on the end to change into a rotary motion hooked up to a generator. This is something that a metal worker could easily build from scrap, and the only cost would be the generator, possibly a surplus permanent magnet motor or a alternator depending on the speed one gets. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 09:51:03AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > >From time to time on this forum we've discussed methods of making > > electricity on-board - so here's another one for consideration: > > > > Yesterday an experimental device was lowered into the River Humber on > > England's north-east coast to generate electricity using tidal power. > > The technique being used is that of oars/paddles being oscillated back > > and forth. > > The Israelis have a system in operation - some 15 or 20 years old, I > believe - of hinged "rafts" (two flat sealed metal boxes, essentially) > with a linear generator on the top and on the bottom. As the waves flex > the connection, the generators get either extended or compressed... > simple and elegant. The Danes do something a little different: they > attach a large tube to the side of a cliff over water, drop a shaft down > through it, and attach a large float to the bottom end. As the shaft > pumps, it drives a linear generator inside the tube. > > In Hawaii, there's a hydrothermal rig - a temperature-differential > driven pump (essentially a pipe several thousand feet long that hangs in > the water) that cycles cold water from way below the thermocline. It > drives a large rotor... *and* supplies very cold water which is now used > to support a very large commercial lobster-raising operation. (I find > the idea of cold-water lobsters from Hawaii to be an amusing > mind-bender.) > > There's been a lot of experimentation with power from the ocean in the > recent years, and I'm very glad to see it happening. I've actually > considered setting up a miniature (folding) version of the Israeli > system: some rigid floating media that can be assembled quickly and > easily when you're at anchor. You'd have a big flat sheet of "stuff" > floating behind you, but I can't see a problem with that except in > crowded anchorages... > > > Now anyone who has seen a pendulum self-steering system in operation > > will be aware of the tremendous power in the action of tilting a blade > > across even a modest flow of water. > > > > So - how about a pendulum oar oscillating back and forth across the > > width of the transom ? If the oar was relatively small it shouldn't > > affect the boat's steering, but if it did, then two opposing oars > > could be used. > > Either one of these would create a huge amount of drag. That's where the > power would come from, but you'd lose more than you gained. On the other > hand, if you made the tilt/rotation highly adjustable, you could "trade > off" speed for power as you sailed: say, give up a knot in exchange for > X number of amp-hours - that being what you're doing with towed > generators. > > Hmm. If this system is simpler than a towed generator, that could be a > pretty good gain. It's worth taking a look at. > > > The clever bit would be translating the pendulous movement into > > useable electricity (that's where Ben and his mates come into the > > equation ...) > > Uh-uh. If the idea's already been executed, filtering it through Brent's > brain is the best way to go. He'll come up with a way to do it for > CDN$3.95, and it'll be stronger than a Sherman tank. :))) > > > Advantages: retractable (unlike a fixed propellor); would work at very > > slow speed (unlike a towed propellor); and not 'in your face' like a > > wind-genny. > > Disadvantages: relatively vulnerable and complex mechanism. > > Not if it's shorter than your rudder. Besides, just like in > self-steering systems, you could make the rudder "kick up" if it hits > something. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18403|18356|2008-10-01 16:15:07|Paul Wilson|Re: more compass|>>>So who exactly is going to USE the Galileo system ? And where is the revenue going to come from ? (rhetorical questions - I've already seen the sales pitch). But does anyone REALLY need centimetric accuracy ? Personally, I think this is yet another 'Concorde' project - more about symbolism (or political penis-envy) than real need. Apologies if we are too off topic and I ramble on... All the airlines really want another satellite system. If it was only boats it would never happen. Aircraft still navigate via an old system of routes based on VOR and DME. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF_omnidirectional_range and its links if you are really interested. Aircraft connect the dots as they navigate from VOR station to VOR station as they fly around and use a lot of fuel in the process. These land based stations are numerous (at most airports) and expensive to maintain and operate. All aircraft must still use VOR and DME based systems since GPS has only recently been trusted by the airlines and not normally used as a primary navigation aide. Cost of the VOR/DME navigation systems in the aircraft is huge, costing tens of thousands of dollars for each aircraft. The navigation system of the helicopter I worked on had a cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. It was a big helicopter :). GPS is slowly being approved and with another reliable independent satellite system, the VOR and DME systems could eventually be shut down and save the airlines a lot of money. Satellite systems could eventually replace even the gyroscopes in the aircraft. Another huge expense since gyros aren't cheap. With their great accuracy and the ability to give altitude, a GPS antenna in each wing could tell the roll and heading of the aircraft, for example. The future is satellite navigation, satellite controlled autopilots, with satellite data links for collision avoidance and air traffic control as well. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18404|18394|2008-10-01 16:56:53|Paul Wilson|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|You could possibly use a starter motor (bendix) drive unit for the one way ratchet mechanism. Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:09 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ? I once read of a singlehanded engineer who rigged the same mechanism as a self winding watch, but much bigger, to generate electricity for sailing across the Atlantic. He generated so much electricity that he had to keep the thing tied off most of the time to prevent overchaging his batteries. It seems that, given the constant motion of a small boat at sea, it would be simple to rig a pendulum with a weight on the end to change into a rotary motion hooked up to a generator. This is something that a metal worker could easily build from scrap, and the only cost would be the generator, possibly a surplus permanent magnet motor or a alternator depending on the speed one gets. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18405|18394|2008-10-01 17:11:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 09:56:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > You could possibly use a starter motor (bendix) drive unit for the one way > ratchet mechanism. Heck, a spring-type clutch would do - but I do wonder what he used for the (very slow rotation speed) generator. It sounds like it would have to be massive. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18406|18394|2008-10-01 19:31:43|brentswain38|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|A big flywheel geared up for speed with those nylon gears would work, or with a toothed belt,or several. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 09:56:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > You could possibly use a starter motor (bendix) drive unit for the one way > > ratchet mechanism. > > Heck, a spring-type clutch would do - but I do wonder what he used for > the (very slow rotation speed) generator. It sounds like it would have > to be massive. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18407|18394|2008-10-01 19:38:51|David Frantz|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|Hi Guys; If a permant magnet DC motor is used for the generator it would have to be massive to get useful energy. For a small motor you would never get a huge spike in power out put but you would get fairly continous out put at low power. Such out put would charge batteries and such over time. Right now I see two hurdles that one would have to overcome. One would be keeping the axis of the pendulum oriented to the primary motion of the boat to maximize energy harvest. The other issue would be tuning the mechanism constantly due to variances in energy in the boarts motion. Of course there are other possibilities for the mechanical pick up that don't involve rotary motion. All you really need to do os to slide a magnet back and forth in a coil. Thought about this way you could have a simple float hanging over the side in such a way that the motion of the boat causes an up and down motion in a coil. That might not work under way real well but ought to do well at anchor anywhere there is any rythmic motion in the water. Your output would be a low level AC and would likely need a bit of electronics to drive a battery charger. Frankly there are likely a number of ways to effectively harvest the mechanical motion from the sea in the production of electricity. The biggest problem is that not all are going to be optimal for a given application. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 1, 2008, at 5:09 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 09:56:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: >> You could possibly use a starter motor (bendix) drive unit for the >> one way >> ratchet mechanism. > > Heck, a spring-type clutch would do - but I do wonder what he used for > the (very slow rotation speed) generator. It sounds like it would have > to be massive. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18408|18394|2008-10-01 19:44:52|David Frantz|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|Whoops Typo guys - that should have been "would not". As in you really don't need a massive motor. The thing to consider is the almost continual motion and thus the ability to produce a lot of power overtime. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 1, 2008, at 7:38 PM, David Frantz wrote: > Hi Guys; > > If a permant magnet DC motor is used for the generator it would have > to be massive to get useful energy. For a small motor you would never > get a huge spike in power out put but you would get fairly continous > out put at low power. Such out put would charge batteries and such > over time. > > Right now I see two hurdles that one would have to overcome. One > would be keeping the axis of the pendulum oriented to the primary > motion of the boat to maximize energy harvest. The other issue would > be tuning the mechanism constantly due to variances in energy in the > boarts motion. > > Of course there are other possibilities for the mechanical pick up > that don't involve rotary motion. All you really need to do os to > slide a magnet back and forth in a coil. Thought about this way you > could have a simple float hanging over the side in such a way that the > motion of the boat causes an up and down motion in a coil. That might > not work under way real well but ought to do well at anchor anywhere > there is any rythmic motion in the water. Your output would be a > low level AC and would likely need a bit of electronics to drive a > battery charger. > > Frankly there are likely a number of ways to effectively harvest the > mechanical motion from the sea in the production of electricity. The > biggest problem is that not all are going to be optimal for a given > application. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Oct 1, 2008, at 5:09 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > >> On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 09:56:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: >>> You could possibly use a starter motor (bendix) drive unit for the >>> one way >>> ratchet mechanism. >> >> Heck, a spring-type clutch would do - but I do wonder what he used >> for >> the (very slow rotation speed) generator. It sounds like it would >> have >> to be massive. >> >> >> -- >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET >> * >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >> ! Groups Links >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18409|18394|2008-10-01 19:52:24|vic_lub|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|A Magnetic Rod traveling through a copper coil sleeve produces electricity.. A small seasaw arangement for the copper coil sleeve with adjustable stops and a few diodes would produce d/c current... I dunno if this helps....wish i could draw a picture... Sometimes i think a little outside the box...sorry.. Cheers Vic| 18410|18394|2008-10-01 19:59:23|vic_lub|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|I found someone else to draw me a picture... Cheers Vic http://www.shake-flashlights.com/how-they-work.html| 18411|18394|2008-10-01 22:10:13|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|What are you guys nodding off? I described such a device in a post here several months ago. I even listed the source for the one way cam clutches to put it together. I recently applied for a job at Ocean Power Technologies, they make power buoys. Didn't manage to get an interview though. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 4:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ? I once read of a singlehanded engineer who rigged the same mechanism as a self winding watch, but much bigger, to generate electricity for sailing across the Atlantic. He generated so much electricity that he had to keep the thing tied off most of the time to prevent overchaging his batteries. It seems that, given the constant motion of a small boat at sea, it would be simple to rig a pendulum with a weight on the end to change into a rotary motion hooked up to a generator. This is something that a metal worker could easily build from scrap, and the only cost would be the generator, possibly a surplus permanent magnet motor or a alternator depending on the speed one gets. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 09:51:03AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > >From time to time on this forum we've discussed methods of making > > electricity on-board - so here's another one for consideration: > > > > Yesterday an experimental device was lowered into the River Humber on > > England's north-east coast to generate electricity using tidal power. > > The technique being used is that of oars/paddles being oscillated back > > and forth. > > The Israelis have a system in operation - some 15 or 20 years old, I > believe - of hinged "rafts" (two flat sealed metal boxes, essentially) > with a linear generator on the top and on the bottom. As the waves flex > the connection, the generators get either extended or compressed... > simple and elegant. The Danes do something a little different: they > attach a large tube to the side of a cliff over water, drop a shaft down > through it, and attach a large float to the bottom end. As the shaft > pumps, it drives a linear generator inside the tube. > > In Hawaii, there's a hydrothermal rig - a temperature-differential > driven pump (essentially a pipe several thousand feet long that hangs in > the water) that cycles cold water from way below the thermocline. It > drives a large rotor... *and* supplies very cold water which is now used > to support a very large commercial lobster-raising operation. (I find > the idea of cold-water lobsters from Hawaii to be an amusing > mind-bender.) > > There's been a lot of experimentation with power from the ocean in the > recent years, and I'm very glad to see it happening. I've actually > considered setting up a miniature (folding) version of the Israeli > system: some rigid floating media that can be assembled quickly and > easily when you're at anchor. You'd have a big flat sheet of "stuff" > floating behind you, but I can't see a problem with that except in > crowded anchorages... > > > Now anyone who has seen a pendulum self-steering system in operation > > will be aware of the tremendous power in the action of tilting a blade > > across even a modest flow of water. > > > > So - how about a pendulum oar oscillating back and forth across the > > width of the transom ? If the oar was relatively small it shouldn't > > affect the boat's steering, but if it did, then two opposing oars > > could be used. > > Either one of these would create a huge amount of drag. That's where the > power would come from, but you'd lose more than you gained. On the other > hand, if you made the tilt/rotation highly adjustable, you could "trade > off" speed for power as you sailed: say, give up a knot in exchange for > X number of amp-hours - that being what you're doing with towed > generators. > > Hmm. If this system is simpler than a towed generator, that could be a > pretty good gain. It's worth taking a look at. > > > The clever bit would be translating the pendulous movement into > > useable electricity (that's where Ben and his mates come into the > > equation ...) > > Uh-uh. If the idea's already been executed, filtering it through Brent's > brain is the best way to go. He'll come up with a way to do it for > CDN$3.95, and it'll be stronger than a Sherman tank. :))) > > > Advantages: retractable (unlike a fixed propellor); would work at very > > slow speed (unlike a towed propellor); and not 'in your face' like a > > wind-genny. > > Disadvantages: relatively vulnerable and complex mechanism. > > Not if it's shorter than your rudder. Besides, just like in > self-steering systems, you could make the rudder "kick up" if it hits > something. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18412|18412|2008-10-02 03:54:34|sallygrinton|Freebies 2nd October|Dear Members A NEW Page of great Freebies was just added ready for Thursday 2nd October. Visit Now! If you would like a veritable 'mountain' of free-stuff, take the time to visit the website below. It is packed with great freebies that ALL members can grab! There is even 250 Free Books you can download, straight away! You are sure to find something of interest, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES when you arrive at the site and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces...but its worth the work!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies! PS: When you have collected a few freebies for yourself, be nice and pass this email message forward to all your family and friends. Its very satisfying helping others and everyone loves something for nothing!| 18413|18356|2008-10-02 06:43:01|sae140|Re: more compass|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 09:34:27AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > The European sats are _being_ launched, the system ("Galileo") > > > is _in the process_ of being set up (it's supposed to be operational > > > by 2013), but there's nothing active yet. When it finally goes up, > > > it's supposed to be complementary to the US GPS system. > > > > *Complementary* is exactly the right word - you won't be able to pick > > up Galileo signals on existing GPS receivers, which I suspect is > > flawed thinking. > > Colin, are you sure? I may be wrong, of course, but as I understood it, > Galileo was supposed to dovetail with the current system - i.e., their > signals were indeed supposed to be usable by current GPS receivers - but > it would be under ESA control (a.k.a. "political football") rather than > the US. > Yep - there's been a lot of mis-information pushed around to suggest to the EU taxpayers that this project makes good sense .... There's a good summary of the current state of play at: http://www.techworld.com/mobility/news/index.cfm?newsid=101485 (May 2008) " The agreement between the EU and the US, specifies that while Galileo satellites will produce Galileo signals, and GPS satellites will produce GPS signals, both signals on the ground will be compatible and interoperable, allowing users in the future to use a device that contains both GPS and Galileo chipsets, which are still to be defined. Unfortunately, this will mean that existing GPS-based sat-nav devices will require a different chipset to utilise the Galileo signal. "The use of Galileo requires changes to the current GPS receivers," confirmed Javier Benedicto, Galileo project manager, ESA (European Space Agency) Navigation Department in an emailed reply. Besides the well-established GPS system, China is building its own network, and the Russians have their own Glonass system, which has a fairly limited geographical range, but is being improved. The US is currently in the process of improving its GPS network (so-called GPS-III). "By the way the use of future GPS (so-called GPS-III) will also require changes to receivers," added Benedicto. " For some typical EU-bullsh#t, see: http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/energy_transport/galileo/faq/index_en.htm " ... current GPS-receivers will most probaly not be able to receive Galileo-signals. It remains to be seen if industry will be able to provide software-updates, for example. On the other hand, given the advance in technological development, today's GPS-receivers would probably anyway be outdated in 5 or 6 years from now." They also say: " GALILEO will be fully operable in 2008 at the latest, with start of signal transmission in 2005." Yep - and I used to believe in the Tooth Fairy. Colin| 18414|18356|2008-10-02 09:12:43|Ben Okopnik|Re: more compass|On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 10:42:58AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 09:34:27AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > > > > [...] you won't be able to pick > > > up Galileo signals on existing GPS receivers > > > > Colin, are you sure? I may be wrong, of course, but as I understood it, > > Galileo was supposed to dovetail with the current system - i.e., their > > signals were indeed supposed to be usable by current GPS receivers - but > > it would be under ESA control (a.k.a. "political football") rather than > > the US. > > Yep - there's been a lot of mis-information pushed around to suggest > to the EU taxpayers that this project makes good sense .... > > There's a good summary of the current state of play at: > http://www.techworld.com/mobility/news/index.cfm?newsid=101485 (May 2008) Thank you - much appreciated! > "The use of Galileo requires changes to the current GPS receivers," > confirmed Javier Benedicto, Galileo project manager, ESA (European > Space Agency) Navigation Department in an emailed reply. Nice. > Besides the well-established GPS system, China is building its own > network, and the Russians have their own Glonass system, which has a > fairly limited geographical range, but is being improved. The US is > currently in the process of improving its GPS network (so-called GPS-III). I find it interesting that the Chinese are willing to throw $300M into Galileo. I strongly suspect that they're looking at it as the (relatively low) cost of having access to the labs and the latest research: i.e., the ESA will do the work while they reap the results, which they will then integrate into their own system. > They also say: " GALILEO will be fully operable in 2008 at the latest, > with start of signal transmission in 2005." Yep - and I used to > believe in the Tooth Fairy. Heh. 2013 is the projected date now, as I understand it. Speaking of projected-to-be-useful-soon stuff - and I have a lot more confidence in this one than I do in Galileo - a recent discovery in LEDs will increase their visible output 5-10x. That's 300 lumens *per watt*, more than double of even the Luxim Plasma lights. I'm seriously looking forward to that one. http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/03/nanocrystal-coating-led-lightbulbs.php -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18415|18394|2008-10-02 09:50:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 11:59:20PM -0000, vic_lub wrote: > I found someone else to draw me a picture... > > http://www.shake-flashlights.com/how-they-work.html A little back-of-the-envelope calculation: a review on that site says "shake it for 30 seconds, and you'll get 5 minutes of light" (I'll be kind and skip the "...but first, shake it for 3 minutes to 'prime' the system" part.) Assuming the average super-bright LED used in flashlights today - 3V at ~35mA draw - that's a *really* lousy conversion ratio. I.e., you're putting in a significant fraction of a horsepower by shaking the thing for that long, and you're getting out a small fraction of a mosquito fart worth of energy (about 3 milliamp-hours). I'm sure that there actually are reasonable ways to do this - off the top of my head, you could hang, say, a 500-lb weight on a 3'-long pendulum and feed it through a one-way clutch and some gearing to a generator (maybe with a gearbox in between to shift the torque/speed ratio for the best match, but you'd lose some power due to friction.) Do note that I'm NOT a mechanical engineer - one of those would probably laugh at my crude design. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18416|18394|2008-10-02 10:45:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 07:38:28PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > Hi Guys; > > If a permant magnet DC motor is used for the generator it would have > to be massive to get useful energy. For a small motor you would never > get a huge spike in power out put but you would get fairly continous > out put at low power. Such out put would charge batteries and such > over time. Assuming that you could provide the high RPM that those small motors needed, yes - which means a gearbox and frictional losses. When it comes to DC generation, slow speed = large mass. > Right now I see two hurdles that one would have to overcome. One > would be keeping the axis of the pendulum oriented to the primary > motion of the boat to maximize energy harvest. I'd say that a simple gyro-type mount (two-plane rotation) would take care of 95% of that pretty easily. > The other issue would > be tuning the mechanism constantly due to variances in energy in the > boarts motion. Well... I don't think that part would be much of a problem. After all, wind generators are constantly spinning up and spinning down, and they do fine. > Of course there are other possibilities for the mechanical pick up > that don't involve rotary motion. All you really need to do os to > slide a magnet back and forth in a coil. Isn't that just a special (linear) case of converting rotary motion? Most of the motion of a boat isn't linear - it's closer to rotary - which is why the one-way clutch and a motor/generator come to mind. > Frankly there are likely a number of ways to effectively harvest the > mechanical motion from the sea in the production of electricity. MAN, that's the truth. Just take a look at the US patent database - they've got a separate category for it (I ran across it yesterday while looking up "slow rotation generators", and was amazed by just how specific - and how LARGE - that category was.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18417|18394|2008-10-02 10:53:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 10:09:45PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > What are you guys nodding off? I described such a device in a post here > several months ago. I even listed the source for the one way cam clutches > to put it together. [laugh] Gary, that's a lot of what we do on this list: constantly rehash issues that are important to all of us. For myself, I've got the CRAFT Disease (Can't Remember A F*cking Thing), so my apologies for forgetting about your post - I did remember about the one-way cam clutches, at least that _someone_ here recommended them, but forgot that you talked about this issue. I'll go search for it in the archives; thanks for the reminder! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18418|18356|2008-10-02 12:09:26|audeojude|Re: more compass|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 09:34:27AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > The European sats are _being_ launched, the system ("Galileo") > > > is _in the process_ of being set up (it's supposed to be operational > > > by 2013), but there's nothing active yet. When it finally goes up, > > > it's supposed to be complementary to the US GPS system. > > > > *Complementary* is exactly the right word - you won't be able to pick > > up Galileo signals on existing GPS receivers, which I suspect is > > flawed thinking. > > Colin, are you sure? I may be wrong, of course, but as I understood it, > Galileo was supposed to dovetail with the current system - i.e., their > signals were indeed supposed to be usable by current GPS receivers - but > it would be under ESA control My understanding was that the systems were going to be compatable and that we are already using some of the galileo satalites. I was told that it is causing some compatibility issues on older gps units as it implements features that the old system doesn't have. If I remember what I was told correctly it mostly amounted to causing older units to take much longer to get a lock on the satellites and be ready to use. however my info is not official so take it with a grain of salt.| 18419|18356|2008-10-02 16:08:52|brentswain38|Re: more compass|At any rate it is foolish to go to sea without a sextant , tables and the knowledge of how to use them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 09:34:27AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > The European sats are _being_ launched, the system ("Galileo") > > > > is _in the process_ of being set up (it's supposed to be operational > > > > by 2013), but there's nothing active yet. When it finally goes up, > > > > it's supposed to be complementary to the US GPS system. > > > > > > *Complementary* is exactly the right word - you won't be able to pick > > > up Galileo signals on existing GPS receivers, which I suspect is > > > flawed thinking. > > > > Colin, are you sure? I may be wrong, of course, but as I understood it, > > Galileo was supposed to dovetail with the current system - i.e., their > > signals were indeed supposed to be usable by current GPS receivers - but > > it would be under ESA control > > My understanding was that the systems were going to be compatable and > that we are already using some of the galileo satalites. I was told > that it is causing some compatibility issues on older gps units as it > implements features that the old system doesn't have. If I remember > what I was told correctly it mostly amounted to causing older units to > take much longer to get a lock on the satellites and be ready to use. > > however my info is not official so take it with a grain of salt. > | 18420|18420|2008-10-02 16:16:58|brentswain38|Plexi Surprise|I just put a new plexi porthole in. I left the plastic coating on until the bedding compound set up. I then pulled the plastic off , expecting to find super clear plastic. What did I find? A big bump across the middle of the plexi. Best check your plexi well before assuming it is smooth. The next piece ,I took the plastic off to check it, then re covered it with masking tape to keep it clean. Best check to make sure your plexi is fair before installing it. Don't take anything for granted.| 18421|18394|2008-10-02 16:26:26|brentswain38|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|It could be made as small as some generators, rotatable for different point of sail , fore and aft for sailing to windward and athwartships for downwind sailing. A flywheel will average things out far more than we get with a wind generator. A locker could be set aside for it. The 24 hours a day would be the big advantage. We are not talking abstract theory here. That engineer did get more power than he needed crossing the atlantic. A 5 lb weight on a 2 ft pendulum 24 hours a day is a lot of energy output. Higher output LEDs can reduce the demand, to the point where we can simply forget about batteries and rely on the motion to keep them up. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 07:38:28PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Guys; > > > > If a permant magnet DC motor is used for the generator it would have > > to be massive to get useful energy. For a small motor you would never > > get a huge spike in power out put but you would get fairly continous > > out put at low power. Such out put would charge batteries and such > > over time. > > Assuming that you could provide the high RPM that those small motors > needed, yes - which means a gearbox and frictional losses. When it comes > to DC generation, slow speed = large mass. > > > Right now I see two hurdles that one would have to overcome. One > > would be keeping the axis of the pendulum oriented to the primary > > motion of the boat to maximize energy harvest. > > I'd say that a simple gyro-type mount (two-plane rotation) would take > care of 95% of that pretty easily. > > > The other issue would > > be tuning the mechanism constantly due to variances in energy in the > > boarts motion. > > Well... I don't think that part would be much of a problem. After all, > wind generators are constantly spinning up and spinning down, and they > do fine. > > > Of course there are other possibilities for the mechanical pick up > > that don't involve rotary motion. All you really need to do os to > > slide a magnet back and forth in a coil. > > Isn't that just a special (linear) case of converting rotary motion? > Most of the motion of a boat isn't linear - it's closer to rotary - > which is why the one-way clutch and a motor/generator come to mind. > > > Frankly there are likely a number of ways to effectively harvest the > > mechanical motion from the sea in the production of electricity. > > MAN, that's the truth. Just take a look at the US patent database - > they've got a separate category for it (I ran across it yesterday while > looking up "slow rotation generators", and was amazed by just how > specific - and how LARGE - that category was.) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18422|18356|2008-10-03 05:29:46|sae140|Re: more compass|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > My understanding was that the systems were going to be compatable and > that we are already using some of the galileo satalites. Not yet - it's still very early days ... At the moment there are only 2 satellites in orbit: GIOVE-A (Galileo In-Orbit Validation Element), and -B. 'A' was launched in Dec. 2005, having 2 x 386 (!) computers on-board. According to the ESA site it had an initial nominal operational life of just 2 years, and it's signals have been intermittent since January 08. But another part of the ESA site says that signal transmission is "currently discontinous due to signal calibration campaign" - so "yer pays yer money .....". GIOVE-B was launched in April of this year, also with an initial nominal operational life of 2 years. This bird IS transmitting usable Galileo signals - apparently 'A' had some kind of transmission noise problem. There is a 3rd experimental bird planned - GIOVE-A2 - before the mass upload of hardware. (Dunno when that will be - it's not clear from the official site) BTW - if anyone's interested in procuring a Galileo receiver - check out http://www.giove.esa.int/images/userpage/DataSheet_ESA.pdf ... but be warned: they're not exactly hand-held devices ! Colin| 18423|18394|2008-10-03 10:23:24|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|The solar industry has a capacitor used for wind generators in areas that have less than ideal volumes & velocities of wind. it "collects & holds" the charge that trickle into it, then, when it has 14 - 15 volts of energy in it it releases that energy in one one short burst into the batteries and starts collecting the dribbles of what's coming from the fan for the next shot into the batteries. __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/| 18424|18394|2008-10-03 12:41:15|blueridgebuilder|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|Here is a simple wind power device, an award winner from Popular Mechanics. "Wind Belt" http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1052/ Much simpler than current wind generators. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It could be made as small as some generators, rotatable for different > point of sail , fore and aft for sailing to windward and athwartships > for downwind sailing. A flywheel will average things out far more than > we get with a wind generator. A locker could be set aside for it. The > 24 hours a day would be the big advantage. We are not talking abstract > theory here. That engineer did get more power than he needed crossing > the atlantic. > A 5 lb weight on a 2 ft pendulum 24 hours a day is a lot of energy > output. Higher output LEDs can reduce the demand, to the point where > we can simply forget about batteries and rely on the motion to keep > them up. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 07:38:28PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > Hi Guys; > > > > > > If a permant magnet DC motor is used for the generator it would have > > > to be massive to get useful energy. For a small motor you would > never > > > get a huge spike in power out put but you would get fairly continous > > > out put at low power. Such out put would charge batteries and such > > > over time. > > > > Assuming that you could provide the high RPM that those small motors > > needed, yes - which means a gearbox and frictional losses. When it comes > > to DC generation, slow speed = large mass. > > > > > Right now I see two hurdles that one would have to overcome. One > > > would be keeping the axis of the pendulum oriented to the primary > > > motion of the boat to maximize energy harvest. > > > > I'd say that a simple gyro-type mount (two-plane rotation) would take > > care of 95% of that pretty easily. > > > > > The other issue would > > > be tuning the mechanism constantly due to variances in energy in the > > > boarts motion. > > > > Well... I don't think that part would be much of a problem. After all, > > wind generators are constantly spinning up and spinning down, and they > > do fine. > > > > > Of course there are other possibilities for the mechanical pick up > > > that don't involve rotary motion. All you really need to do os to > > > slide a magnet back and forth in a coil. > > > > Isn't that just a special (linear) case of converting rotary motion? > > Most of the motion of a boat isn't linear - it's closer to rotary - > > which is why the one-way clutch and a motor/generator come to mind. > > > > > Frankly there are likely a number of ways to effectively harvest the > > > mechanical motion from the sea in the production of electricity. > > > > MAN, that's the truth. Just take a look at the US patent database - > > they've got a separate category for it (I ran across it yesterday while > > looking up "slow rotation generators", and was amazed by just how > > specific - and how LARGE - that category was.) > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 18425|18394|2008-10-03 14:53:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 04:41:09PM -0000, blueridgebuilder wrote: > Here is a simple wind power device, an award winner from Popular > Mechanics. "Wind Belt" > > http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1052/ > > Much simpler than current wind generators. That is too cool for words. Thanks for the neat link! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18426|18394|2008-10-04 19:06:33|Darren Bos|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|The circuit Shane describes is the same as that used in BEAM solar robots (called a solar engine). There are many free designs for the circuit on the net and it would be fairly easy to adjust the components to take the amount of power you would likely get from any kind of wave generator. The main benefit would be get useful power out of the device at time when wave energy was low. Darren At 07:23 AM 03/10/2008, you wrote: >The solar industry has a capacitor used for wind generators in areas >that have less than ideal volumes & velocities of wind. it "collects >& holds" the charge that trickle into it, then, when it has 14 - 15 >volts of energy in it it releases that energy in one one short burst >into the batteries and starts collecting the dribbles of what's >coming from the fan for the next shot into the batteries. > >__________________________________________________________ >Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new >Yahoo! Canada Messenger at >http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18427|18394|2008-10-05 12:21:53|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|Just another idea: instead of using a bulky, heavy pendulum (which if it got loose in a seaway could be dangerous) and complicated gears and clutches, why not just go linear? Mount a tube athwartships (perhaps high and forward in the cabin where it wouldn't be in the way) surrounded by copper coils. Inside is a track or raceway that carries a permanent magnet back and forth across the vessel as it rolls, inducing an electrical current in the coils, which can then be harvested with the electronics described by SHANE and Darren and then stored in the batteries. A similar but purely mechanical device could aid ventilation (unrelated to the electrical system): a tube athwartships with a fairly close fitting lightweight plastic ball inside, an intake vent going up through the cabin roof in the center and exhaust vents at either extreme inside. The ball captures outside air each time it rolls past the intake and pushes it inside the cabin until it reaches the end, when it starts toward the other side.| 18428|18394|2008-10-05 22:47:17|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|When you are on a tack it stay to one side and not generate any power. The pendulum is self centering and would work all the time. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "RICHARD KOKEMOOR" To: Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ? > Just another idea: instead of using a bulky, heavy pendulum (which if > it got loose in a seaway could be dangerous) and complicated gears and > clutches, why not just go linear? Mount a tube athwartships (perhaps high > and forward in the cabin where it wouldn't be in the way) surrounded by > copper coils. Inside is a track or raceway that carries a permanent > magnet back and forth across the vessel as it rolls, inducing an > electrical current in the coils, which can then be harvested with the > electronics described by SHANE and Darren and then stored in the > batteries. > A similar but purely mechanical device could aid ventilation > (unrelated to the electrical system): a tube athwartships with a fairly > close fitting lightweight plastic ball inside, an intake vent going up > through the cabin roof in the center and exhaust vents at either extreme > inside. The ball captures outside air each time it rolls past the intake > and pushes it inside the cabin until it reaches the end, when it starts > toward the other side. > > > > | 18429|18394|2008-10-05 23:42:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|On Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 09:21:48AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > Just another idea: instead of using a bulky, heavy pendulum > (which if it got loose in a seaway could be dangerous) and > complicated gears and clutches, why not just go linear? Mount a > tube athwartships (perhaps high and forward in the cabin where it > wouldn't be in the way) surrounded by copper coils. Gary's already pointed out one problem; another is that it won't do anything when you're pitching instead of rolling. A pendulum - say, with a universal joint connected above the pivot - will work whenever there's any kind of repeated motion (I suppose that perfectly linear heaving would be excluded, but that's no more likely than a spherical cow. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18430|18430|2008-10-06 03:16:02|rachael_grantham|Freebies 6th October|Dear Members A NEW Page of great Freebies was just added ready for Monday 6th October. Visit Now! If you would like a veritable 'mountain' of free-stuff, take the time to visit the website below. It is packed with great freebies that ALL members can grab! There is even 250 Free Books you can download, straight away! You are sure to find something of interest, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES when you arrive at the site and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces...but its worth the work!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies! PS: When you have collected a few freebies for yourself, be nice and pass this email message forward to all your family and friends. Its very satisfying helping others and everyone loves something for nothing!| 18431|18394|2008-10-06 07:22:48|audeojude|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 09:21:48AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > Just another idea: instead of using a bulky, heavy pendulum > > (which if it got loose in a seaway could be dangerous) and > > complicated gears and clutches, why not just go linear? Mount a > > tube athwartships (perhaps high and forward in the cabin where it > > wouldn't be in the way) surrounded by copper coils. > > Gary's already pointed out one problem; another is that it won't do > anything when you're pitching instead of rolling. A pendulum - say, with > a universal joint connected above the pivot - will work whenever there's > any kind of repeated motion (I suppose that perfectly linear heaving > would be excluded, but that's no more likely than a spherical cow. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > set your mechanism up so that it powers the generator on both the upswing and the downswing. you can use the weight of the pendulum both directions.| 18432|17655|2008-10-06 08:21:33|Shane Duncan|Re: aluminium pilot house|http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/view/b04f?b=7 here is a CAD pic of my aluminum pilothouse in 4mm had a mate drew in up on Rhino a 3D cad package he designs lobster boats so was quite help-full re scantlings in ally will save around 160kgs up to will put that in the keel going for stick on toughened glass its all the rage down here for lobster boats even the military are using it now on the high speed frigates not too expensive $85 per porthole cheers shane   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house Hello Shane I cant see any reason not to use the aluminum, as long as the two metals are isolated from each other. What grade aluminum are you planning on using? I think I would trust bolts more than rivets Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18433|18394|2008-10-06 08:26:43|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|Good point - so make the tube an arc (center low) and it will have the same action as a pendulum of the same radius.| 18434|18394|2008-10-06 14:05:41|brentswain38|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|Point it fore and aft for pitching ( going to windward) and athwartships for rolling( downwind sailing) Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 09:21:48AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > Just another idea: instead of using a bulky, heavy pendulum > > (which if it got loose in a seaway could be dangerous) and > > complicated gears and clutches, why not just go linear? Mount a > > tube athwartships (perhaps high and forward in the cabin where it > > wouldn't be in the way) surrounded by copper coils. > > Gary's already pointed out one problem; another is that it won't do > anything when you're pitching instead of rolling. A pendulum - say, with > a universal joint connected above the pivot - will work whenever there's > any kind of repeated motion (I suppose that perfectly linear heaving > would be excluded, but that's no more likely than a spherical cow. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18435|18394|2008-10-06 17:54:55|vic_lub|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|These would roll in a tube easy.. http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SX0 Cheers Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > Good point - so make the tube an arc (center low) and it will have the same action as a pendulum of the same radius. > | 18436|18436|2008-10-06 18:10:05|Martin Demers|electric motor swain?|Hi, I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information for the conversion is now more easily available. I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or if someone is considering it. I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I was condidering the possibility of going electric. Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are the questions I am asking myself? any thoughts ? Martin.| 18437|18436|2008-10-06 20:13:00|Aaron Williams|Re: electric motor swain?|Martin   I have been looking at re-e-power.com  They have external mounted pod units. The only other electric motor that I would conscider for my BS36 was the thoosa brand at www.ngcmarine.com  They do cover a lot of info at the electricboats group. Aaron --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Martin Demers wrote: From: Martin Demers Subject: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 2:10 PM Hi, I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information for the conversion is now more easily available. I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or if someone is considering it. I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I was condidering the possibility of going electric. Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are the questions I am asking myself? any thoughts ? Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18438|18436|2008-10-06 20:33:22|Aaron Williams|Re: electric motor swain?|Martin You should also go over to watercar group they have some realy easy plans for hydrogen boosters that will really help the internal combustion engine gas or diesel. I would bet Brent would even have some fun building something for his boat --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Aaron Williams wrote: From: Aaron Williams Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 4:12 PM Martin   I have been looking at re-e-power.com  They have external mounted pod units. The only other electric motor that I would conscider for my BS36 was the thoosa brand at www.ngcmarine. com  They do cover a lot of info at the electricboats group. Aaron --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Martin Demers wrote: From: Martin Demers Subject: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 2:10 PM Hi, I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information for the conversion is now more easily available. I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or if someone is considering it. I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I was condidering the possibility of going electric. Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are the questions I am asking myself? any thoughts ? Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18439|18394|2008-10-06 22:18:21|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|No, it won't, unless your tube has coils along the whole length. When the boat is heeled it will stay in one section to one side. That's why motors that go round and round are so much easier to build than linear motors! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "RICHARD KOKEMOOR" To: Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 8:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ? > Good point - so make the tube an arc (center low) and it will have the > same action as a pendulum of the same radius. > > > > | 18440|18394|2008-10-06 22:20:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|Filed orientation is important, those would be damn hard to orient! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "vic_lub" To: Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 5:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ? These would roll in a tube easy.. http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SX0 Cheers Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > Good point - so make the tube an arc (center low) and it will have the same action as a pendulum of the same radius. > | 18441|18394|2008-10-07 00:07:36|vic_lub|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|As long as the magnet passes through the coil it will generate power....fast and spinning would improve power output.... Maybe the manetic ball would try to orient itself every time it passed a coil causing friction...hmm Cheers Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Filed orientation is important, those would be damn hard to orient! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "vic_lub" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 5:54 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ? > > > These would roll in a tube easy.. > http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SX0 > Cheers > Vic > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR > wrote: > > > > Good point - so make the tube an arc (center low) and it will have > the same action as a pendulum of the same radius. > > > | 18442|18394|2008-10-07 00:11:58|vic_lub|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|I have only had experiance with small sail boats.. Do bigger sail boats stop rocking when heeled? No movement fore and aft or port to starboard... Cheers Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > No, it won't, unless your tube has coils along the whole length. When the > boat is heeled it will stay in one section to one side. That's why motors > that go round and round are so much easier to build than linear motors! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RICHARD KOKEMOOR" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 8:26 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ? > > > > Good point - so make the tube an arc (center low) and it will have the > > same action as a pendulum of the same radius. > > > > > > > > > | 18443|18225|2008-10-07 05:37:36|Wally Paine|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|Re: Refrigeration: 1) When ranching in Zimbabwe I relied first on a gas fridge and paraffin deep freeze. 2) When I got a 4kVA diesel alternator I used a deep freeze fitted with "hold over" plates. If the freezer was full and cold it would stay frozen for ten days or so so long as you didn't put anything into it. The same applied to a huge icebox with 6 inches of foam around it. This set up replaced the gas and paraffin one and was much less trouble. 3)  Canvas water bags (a couple of pints)  hung in a breeze always gave coolish water. You get to like the taste. 4) I had a canvas water-bag (about a gallon) with a little canvas "dry" ,or at any rate  damp, compartment sewn on the bottom of it which kept butter solid, also bacon etc. A couple of beers or such like stored in the water bag section also kept cool enough.   Temperatures were up to 120 F in the shade and it was very dry so that when it was very hot the "evaporators" worked well.  They also worked fairly well when the temperature dropped a little and it was more humid.   Some of this may be applicable to on board refrigeration. Something to think about any way.   Re selling ice: I read somewhere that around 1820, ice cut some where in Canada?  was shipped down to southern USA in fast schooners, packed in saw dust, and at the height of summer might fetch 6c a pound.      Wally Paine.   --- On Thu, 25/9/08, silascrosby wrote: From: silascrosby Subject: [origamiboats] Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 September, 2008, 1:39 AM Brent, I'll turn down your offer to box with you or with anyone, with or without beer, thanks.Probably not smart to start a boxing career in one's fifties. Beer must be boxing-specific. Never too late start a beer-drinking career, though. Or running. Yep, I would think that evaporative cooling might just work (!). I remember those porous canvas water bags too. It is looking a bit crowded in what you call the 'low-rent district' the past few days. I guess it is from the general crowding everywhere on the south coast. Whose is the 36' blue hull at the gov. dock from the USA ? Steve --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Steve > Last Friday I was out cruising. This saturday , in the ring I built at > Rankins placed would be OK. I was refering to boxing , not running. > Most boxers I talk to share my experience with having had a beer the > night before. > When I was was a kid we used to use semi porous waterbags. The > evaporation of the water on the surface cooled it. Maybe someone could > put two beer in the shade, one with a wet towel around it and another > without and compare the temperatures. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > Brent, You got me, I can't resist. 'No gas in the tank' ? Gimme a > > break. I don't box ,do you run ? How does Friday sound ? Beer lubes > > the joints ya know, less pain. > > Have you ever seen a better September in this part of the world ? > > Unbelievable. > > Steve > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I've always found anything with alcohol in to taste a lot like weasel > > > piss.( Never tried weasel piss, just imagining) When you drink > > > something cold , it numbs the tastebuds, which is the only reason > > > alcohol tastes better cold. If you have bad wine , serve it very cold > > > and you'll numb everyones tastebuds so that it will taste great( > > > only thru cold ,totally numbed tastebuds) > > > The difference between good beer and bad beer is one tasts less foul > > > than the other. I use to drink for the high, but never did like the > > > taste, nor the tiredess the next couple of days . > > > I always loved getting those who had a beer the night before in the > > > boxing ring. Man they have absolutely no gas in their tank. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 09:06:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > In BC in Georgia Strait waters the thermocline is above ten feet > > > > > down. > > > > > Below that it's 7 degrees celcius , or 45 degrees farenheit > > > year > > > > > round. > > > > > > > > [laugh] In BC, you guys probably have to warm your beer over a > > > stove to > > > > get the alcohol to melt. If you could just come up with a > > > > superconductive cable that stretches from BC to the tropics, none > > > of us > > > > would ever have to worry about refrigeration again. > > > > > > > > I've fished a number of lakes in which the thermocline was very > > > shallow > > > > - you could see it on your depth sounder. Useful to know where it > > > is; > > > > the fish tend to congregate right above it. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18444|18339|2008-10-07 06:17:56|peter_d_wiley|Re: lister petter PH2 air cooled engine|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I prefer the older slower turning Yanmars. Yeah, me too, which is why I got the 3QM30H. Still have to source a g/box but I have one already, just a fair amount of work to mount it up. > I had an aircooled 10hp Hatz in my boat till 96 when I went to a two > cylindre Isuzu. Much quieter and cooler, but much heavier and I hated > to give up the hand start option. I hear Princess Auto in Winnipeg has > a chinese 10 hp diesel for $650 , new. Don't know how good they are. > You are right when you say buy whatever is cheapest and get out sailing. There are some Chinese copies of small single cylinder Yanmar industrial engines about. They go up to 20 HP IIRC and are designed to run at 1800 rpm for driving pumps, gen sets and the like. Water cooled, integral tank & radiator, manual and electric start, big flywheel. One of the larger sizes with a 3:1 box and I think you'd be good to go, pretty cheaply. I picked up one off of Ebay but it's a copy of the older horizontal Yanmar, open flywheel. Works fine, I got it cheap when nobody else bid, mainly to get the 3.5:1 box on it. That box, coupled to even a relatively fast running Kubota or the like, will get the shaft speed down to the useful range. Right now I know where there are another 4 marine boxes but either too expensive or too far from home. My advice FWIW is to get a good box and worry about the engine later, if the opportunity presents. You can always flog it again if you find the perfect engine, and a g/box opens up the use of industrial engines. Engineer friend of mine and I are plotting something else too, but ATM it's just sketches. PDW| 18445|18436|2008-10-07 08:12:58|martin demers|Re: electric motor swain?|Aaron, The down side is the weigh of the batteries that adds up to the weigh of the generator wich you need if you want to run continiously and some galons of diesel too. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: akenai@... > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:12:56 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > > > Martin > > I have been looking at re-e-power.com They have external mounted pod units. The only other electric motor that I would conscider for my BS36 was the thoosa brand at www.ngcmarine.com They do cover a lot of info at the electricboats group. > Aaron > > --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > From: Martin Demers > Subject: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 2:10 PM > > Hi, > > I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for > sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information for > the conversion is now more easily available. > I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or if > someone is considering it. > I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I > was condidering the possibility of going electric. > Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for > a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are the > questions I am asking myself? > > any thoughts ? > > Martin. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18446|18446|2008-10-07 12:48:07|Gerrit|what welding machine?|I did welding work many years ago..... Now, as I want to build a 36 feet steelboat I dont know what machine I really NEED for that. I want to train myself in welding with that, before I do the right work on my boat.... What do I really NEED when I just only want to build ONE boat? I want the most simple and cheap one what is good enough for just this job....| 18447|18394|2008-10-07 14:00:32|Ben Okopnik|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 04:07:35AM -0000, vic_lub wrote: > As long as the magnet passes through the coil it will generate > power.... In order to generate anything resembling _useful_ amounts of power, you need a minimum combination of magnet size, coil diameter and inductance, and speed of movement. I suggest reading up on Maxwell's law - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations - as well as considering the known facts. I.e., the Windbelt generator mentioned here and demonstrated in the video, with two magnets moving in and out of their paired coils several thousand times per minute, puts out 85 *milliamps* (this is after a lot of research and fine-tuning.) That's enough to light a pair of LEDs and run a clock and a radio - just - but it's not in any way useful for the quantities of power consumed on a boat. E.g., 24 hours of charging with that generator would give you about 20 minutes of operation on an average laptop, or about an hour of running an anchor light. > fast and spinning would improve power output.... Fast, yes. Spinning, no. Rotation is just the most efficient method we have of keeping the magnet and the coil in close proximity while moving them at high speed in relation to each other. I don't want to spoil a good dream, but power generation isn't all that easy. If it was, we wouldn't need to spend all that money on spars, rigging, and sails. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18448|18446|2008-10-07 14:08:01|James|Re: what welding machine?|indoors or outdoors ? jim On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Gerrit wrote: > I did welding work many years ago..... Now, as I want to build a 36 > feet steelboat I dont know what machine I really NEED for that. I want > to train myself in welding with that, before I do the right work on my > boat.... > > What do I really NEED when I just only want to build ONE boat? I want > the most simple and cheap one what is good enough for just this job.... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18449|18225|2008-10-07 14:12:19|Ben Okopnik|Re: anyone use refrigeration onboard?|On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 09:37:32AM +0000, Wally Paine wrote: >   > Re selling ice: I read somewhere that around 1820, ice cut some > where in Canada?  was shipped down to southern USA in fast schooners, > packed in saw dust, and at the height of summer might fetch 6c a > pound.    Romans used to do the same thing - have ice brought down from the mountains - 1500 or so years ago. Interesting how the economics of that work: in their day, the average Roman was the equivalent of a modern millionaire, so they could afford to do this. In the 1800s, as you say, ice was shipped from Canada to the US because there was a profit to be made - meaning that transportation costs (by ship) had become so low that 6 cents a pound was a profitable venture. (They probably could have made out even better by wrapping California heat in damp towels and bringing it up to Canada, but they just didn't know how to market it. A shame, that. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18450|18446|2008-10-07 14:29:22|Carl Anderson|Re: what welding machine?|Try a Lincoln 225 AC stick welder. Thats what we used to weld up my boat. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Gerrit wrote: > > > I did welding work many years ago..... Now, as I want to build a 36 > feet steelboat I dont know what machine I really NEED for that. I want > to train myself in welding with that, before I do the right work on my > boat.... > > What do I really NEED when I just only want to build ONE boat? I want > the most simple and cheap one what is good enough for just this job.... > > | 18451|18436|2008-10-07 14:33:11|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|electric motor swain?|I considered an electric drive system for the Swain 28 (scaled up 26) I am building, projected to displace 8400#, almost 4 long tons. Most people want 2-4 hp per ton; I am content with the formerly standard 1-2 hp per ton. An Etek motor at 36 volts can supply 6 hp. I've been reading Douglas Little's book Electric Boats. 6 hp would get me about 4.5 knots. (It would take 16.6 hp to reach hull speed, 6.5 knots.) At 4.5 knots I would go 108 NM in 24 hours, which would also be a good distance under sail. BUT, how much battery capacity would I need to go for even 4 hours? Turns out, at 36 volts, I would need 119 Amp hours per hp = 714. Six 6 volt golf cart batteries weigh 360# and cost at least $900. Their nominal capacity (when new) would be 1440Ah until flat. That means I could go for no more than an hour before mandatory recharge, which takes significantly longer than discharging them by running the electric drive. Only solution is to add more batteries, more weight, more cost, more volume. Lots more. If I wanted to motor for longer than my batteries' capacity, I would have to power the drive motor directly from a generator producing at least 6 x 750 watts/hp, which would require a 5000W genset, which uses an IC engine half again as powerful as the 6hp electric drive. If I need a >6 hp IC engine, why do I need in addition a generator head, a drive motor, a controller, tons of batteries and yards and yards of heavy copper cable, and a complex charging system? Oh, and by the way, I'd still need a 12 volt house battery with its own charging system, or a voltage converter. And although I could reverse electrically with yet another gizmo (reversing contactor), I might still need a reduction gear. It seems apparent that electric drive in its present state is best suited to very small vessels (smaller than mine) on rivers and small lakes, for short outings followed by extended spells of recharging from the grid rather than a genset. The upside of this exercise was that I figured out a way to gain a great deal of cabin sole area, stowage space and headroom through a fairly simple modification to the portion of the hull between the twin keels, which incidentally reduces the wetted surface while increasing the effective length of the keels and the displacement, so that I can carry more stuff, or the same stuff at a lower waterline, in greater comfort.| 18452|17655|2008-10-07 14:34:06|jonathanswef|Re: aluminium pilot house|> going for stick on toughened glass > its all the rage down here for lobster boats > even the military are using it now on the high speed frigates > not too expensive $85 per porthole Shane, Could you tell us a bit more about this? Stuck on the flat or into a rebate? What thickness glass? How big a hole are you or do they cover? Jonathan.| 18453|18436|2008-10-07 14:39:43|Ben Okopnik|Re: electric motor swain?|On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 10:10:01PM -0000, Martin Demers wrote: > > Hi, > > I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for > sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information for > the conversion is now more easily available. Oddly enough, the friend that I'd mentioned here several days ago - the fellow who owned the Loose Moose II - is using an electric drive on his boat. According to him, it's ridiculous *not* to do so given the rising fuel prices; he's saving a lot of money with the rig. Incidentally, Bob also helped me solve my refrigeration problem: he had a rant on his blog about how US cruisers just accept that their refrigeration systems are going to fail and be expensive to install and fix, while the Australians (he's spent a fair amount of time Down Under, as I recall) use a lot of 12-volt fridges out in the bush - systems that don't consume much power and don't break down any more often than a house fridge. I followed his advice and bought (hunted down, actually, since Coleman *just* stopped carrying them) a Coleman-Stirling "Power Cooler", and have been impressed as hell with it. It's quiet, it cools very quickly and efficiently, draws 0.6A on the second setting (there are five, with the last two being levels of freezing) - and it's doing this while sitting in my cockpit in daily 80+-degree temps. Oh, and I got it at the original $300 price that Coleman was selling it for: found a store in Alabama that still had one in stock. Everybody else is selling them for $500-700 these days. According to people who own one (I've done a lot of research around the Web), they're very reliable - and they run on carbon dioxide rather than Freon. Hard to beat, all around. > I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I > was condidering the possibility of going electric. > Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for > a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are the > questions I am asking myself? Cons: initial high cost, and (unless you already do) the necessity of understanding an entire new system that you've added to the boat. The pros... well, there are lots. I suggest subscribing to one of the relevant groups, or better yet, talking to someone who already has one. Just be sure to discount what they say by an appropriate factor. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18454|18446|2008-10-07 14:58:11|Gerrit|Re: what welding machine?|Hi Jim I want to build steel Swain 36 outdoor... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > indoors or outdoors ? > jim > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Gerrit wrote: > > > I did welding work many years ago..... Now, as I want to build a 36 > > feet steelboat I dont know what machine I really NEED for that. I want > > to train myself in welding with that, before I do the right work on my > > boat.... > > > > What do I really NEED when I just only want to build ONE boat? I want > > the most simple and cheap one what is good enough for just this job.... > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18455|18446|2008-10-07 15:16:13|jarrettolson921|Re: what welding machine?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > I did welding work many years ago..... Now, as I want to build a 36 > feet steelboat I dont know what machine I really NEED for that. I want > to train myself in welding with that, before I do the right work on my > boat.... > > > What do I really NEED when I just only want to build ONE boat? I want > the most simple and cheap one what is good enough for just this job.... > Get a wirefeed welder. If your going to be weldng outside get fluxcore wire so you don't have to use shielding gas. Changing out sticks is going to get old after you lay a couple thousand feet of weld. Look into a machine that can take a large spool, I have a miller 210 it is the smallest welder miller made at the time that could have a large spool in it. Look on craigslist and you should be able to find some good deals. If you want something new cyberweld.com is where i bought mine 5 years ago and i bought my tig from them 2 years ago and have been very happy with them.| 18456|18436|2008-10-07 15:59:24|brentswain38|electric motor swain?|The math in terms of batteries for electric drive simply doesn't add up. We need big improvements in battery technology before electric drive becomes practical. I'd be leery of any changes between the keels , or any major changes in a hull that has proven so successful as is. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > I considered an electric drive system for the Swain 28 (scaled up 26) I am building, projected to displace 8400#, almost 4 long tons. Most people want 2-4 hp per ton; I am content with the formerly standard 1-2 hp per ton. An Etek motor at 36 volts can supply 6 hp. > I've been reading Douglas Little's book Electric Boats. 6 hp would get me about 4.5 knots. (It would take 16.6 hp to reach hull speed, 6.5 knots.) At 4.5 knots I would go 108 NM in 24 hours, which would also be a good distance under sail. > BUT, how much battery capacity would I need to go for even 4 hours? Turns out, at 36 volts, I would need 119 Amp hours per hp = 714. Six 6 volt golf cart batteries weigh 360# and cost at least $900. Their nominal capacity (when new) would be 1440Ah until flat. That means I could go for no more than an hour before mandatory recharge, which takes significantly longer than discharging them by running the electric drive. Only solution is to add more batteries, more weight, more cost, more volume. Lots more. > If I wanted to motor for longer than my batteries' capacity, I would have to power the drive motor directly from a generator producing at least 6 x 750 watts/hp, which would require a 5000W genset, which uses an IC engine half again as powerful as the 6hp electric drive. > If I need a >6 hp IC engine, why do I need in addition a generator head, a drive motor, a controller, tons of batteries and yards and yards of heavy copper cable, and a complex charging system? Oh, and by the way, I'd still need a 12 volt house battery with its own charging system, or a voltage converter. And although I could reverse electrically with yet another gizmo (reversing contactor), I might still need a reduction gear. > It seems apparent that electric drive in its present state is best suited to very small vessels (smaller than mine) on rivers and small lakes, for short outings followed by extended spells of recharging from the grid rather than a genset. > The upside of this exercise was that I figured out a way to gain a great deal of cabin sole area, stowage space and headroom through a fairly simple modification to the portion of the hull between the twin keels, which incidentally reduces the wetted surface while increasing the effective length of the keels and the displacement, so that I can carry more stuff, or the same stuff at a lower waterline, in greater comfort. > | 18457|18446|2008-10-07 16:02:01|brentswain38|Re: what welding machine?|All I've ever needed is a cheap 225 amp buzzbox. For a one off boat, you can't justify the expense and hassle of a wire feed. There are only 350 hours of welding in the whole project. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > Hi Jim > > I want to build steel Swain 36 outdoor... > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > indoors or outdoors ? > > jim > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Gerrit wrote: > > > > > I did welding work many years ago..... Now, as I want to build a 36 > > > feet steelboat I dont know what machine I really NEED for that. I want > > > to train myself in welding with that, before I do the right work on my > > > boat.... > > > > > > What do I really NEED when I just only want to build ONE boat? I want > > > the most simple and cheap one what is good enough for just this > job.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 18458|18446|2008-10-07 16:26:14|Paul Wilson|Re: what welding machine?|Good choice. All you NEED is an AC arc welder. I used one for the whole boat. I kept the welder in a shed and had a 50 foot cable to the stinger with a short ground cable to the boat. It was very convenient to set up and use. Brent has very good reasons for this set-up in his book. Cheers, Paul Try a Lincoln 225 AC stick welder. Thats what we used to weld up my boat. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Gerrit wrote: > > > I did welding work many years ago..... Now, as I want to build a 36 > feet steelboat I dont know what machine I really NEED for that. I want > to train myself in welding with that, before I do the right work on my > boat.... > > What do I really NEED when I just only want to build ONE boat? I want > the most simple and cheap one what is good enough for just this job.... > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1711 - Release Date: 10/6/2008 5:37 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18459|18446|2008-10-07 16:44:32|Gerrit|Re: what welding machine?|O.k. Thank you all for the information.... So i will look for such a 225A buzzbox....I think I dont get a Lincoln here in switzerland, but I will see what I get. Tomorrow I will drive to different dealers here around 20 miles... I will try out with scrap during winter with it and then begin in spring with the hull. Will be about the steelprices here too when to start... Greetings, Gerrit| 18460|18436|2008-10-07 17:03:32|djackson99@aol.com|Re: electric motor swain?|I'm researching a hybrid system. Seer, a previous member did an lot of looking into this too.? Unfortunately he found a used boat at a price that more that right.? It think its one of those things that make since for some boats.? We plan to have a lot of power hungry tools in a cargo hold on a 74ft boat, so other than the price, it looks like a good idea. Thoosa 17000 from Asmo Marine, www.asmomarine.com and also www.ngcmarine.com is a 96V, 200 amp, 17kW said to replace a 52HP-60HP engine. ( I am not yet convinced that it will rival a 52 hp diesel. ) These use a cog belt reduction to the drive shaft.? The motor works as a generator and charges the battery bank, while the boat is driven by sails or engine in excess of the motor's throttle speed.? With a 200 amp draw at full power, I think it would be best to have a battery bank that would provide 200 amps per hour at 96 volts over 20 hours allowing for a constant 200 amp load without damaging the battery bank. A typical gel-cell is 12 volt, 55 amp hour, so 4 of then would provide 220 amp hours at 12 volt, and 8 times 12 makes the required 96 volts, so that comes to 24 batteries.? At $165 each that comes to just under $4000 for the batteries on top of the $8000 for the motor and controller.? The upside to a lot of batteries is that they can be hooked up to a rectifier in order to supply AC power to the shop tools, and it provides a large capacity for storing power generated by solar panels, prop and wind. At 43 pounds each it is also 1000 pounds of ballast.? They are 10 1/2" x 7 3/8" x 8 3/4" so it would be easy to put all of then in the top of one of the keels. Having 96 volt DC available also makes it possible to run some of the tools directly from a 96 volt DC motor. My problem at this point is I can figure out how to clutch the motor into the drive shaft or if it is even necessary to disengage it other than electrically.? I think Seer was going to us a V-belt drive and an idle pulley to engage the electric motor.? All ideas are welcome. Thanks Doug Jackson www.SubmarineBoat.com -----Original Message----- From: RICHARD KOKEMOOR To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 1:33 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re:electric motor swain? I considered an electric drive system for the Swain 28 (scaled up 26) I am building, projected to displace 8400#, almost 4 long tons. Most people want 2-4 hp per ton; I am content with the formerly standard 1-2 hp per ton. An Etek motor at 36 volts can supply 6 hp. I've been reading Douglas Little's book Electric Boats. 6 hp would get me about 4.5 knots. (It would take 16.6 hp to reach hull speed, 6.5 knots.) At 4.5 knots I would go 108 NM in 24 hours, which would also be a good distance under sail. BUT, how much battery capacity would I need to go for even 4 hours? Turns out, at 36 volts, I would need 119 Amp hours per hp = 714. Six 6 volt golf cart batteries weigh 360# and cost at least $900. Their nominal capacity (when new) would be 1440Ah until flat. That means I could go for no more than an hour before mandatory recharge, which takes significantly longer than discharging them by running the electric drive. Only solution is to add more batteries, more weight, more cost, more volume. Lots more. If I wanted to motor for longer than my batteries' capacity, I would have to power the drive motor directly from a generator producing at least 6 x 750 watts/hp, which would require a 5000W genset, which uses an IC engine half again as powerful as the 6hp electric drive. If I need a >6 hp IC engine, why do I need in addition a generator head, a drive motor, a controller, tons of batteries and yards and yards of heavy copper cable, and a complex charging system? Oh, and by the way, I'd still need a 12 volt house battery with its own charging system, or a voltage converter. And although I could reverse electrically with yet another gizmo (reversing contactor), I might still need a reduction gear. It seems apparent that electric drive in its present state is best suited to very small vessels (smaller than mine) on rivers and small lakes, for short outings followed by extended spells of recharging from the grid rather than a genset. The upside of this exercise was that I figured out a way to gain a great deal of cabin sole area, stowage space and headroom through a fairly simple modification to the portion of the hull between the twin keels, which incidentally reduces the wetted surface while increasing the effective length of the keels and the displacement, so that I can carry more stuff, or the same stuff at a lower waterline, in greater comfort. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18461|18446|2008-10-07 17:19:33|David Frantz|Re: what welding machine?|As has already been pointed out you don't need much in the way of a welder. However you do need to consider where boat is going to be built. If you don't have access to the required AC power the welder won't be of much use. So you need to think about your build site and it's electrical service. I only point this out because it would be almost impossible to run such a welder on the service feeding my house. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Gerrit wrote: > O.k. > > Thank you all for the information.... > > So i will look for such a 225A buzzbox....I think I dont get a Lincoln > here in switzerland, but I will see what I get. Tomorrow I will drive > to different dealers here around 20 miles... > > I will try out with scrap during winter with it and then begin in > spring with the hull. Will be about the steelprices here too when to > start... > > > Greetings, > Gerrit > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18462|18446|2008-10-07 17:38:01|James|Re: what welding machine?|Then you need a good stick welder like a miller , lincoln, or similar -- and do you know about the migweldingforum -- useful for stick too. mig is great , makes fabulous welds but only if the gas is fully shielded from wind, like "indoors". jim On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:58 PM, Gerrit wrote: > Hi Jim > > I want to build steel Swain 36 outdoor... > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > indoors or outdoors ? > > jim > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Gerrit wrote: > > > > > I did welding work many years ago..... Now, as I want to build a 36 > > > feet steelboat I dont know what machine I really NEED for that. I want > > > to train myself in welding with that, before I do the right work on my > > > boat.... > > > > > > What do I really NEED when I just only want to build ONE boat? I want > > > the most simple and cheap one what is good enough for just this > job.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18463|18446|2008-10-07 18:07:29|brentswain38|Re: what welding machine?|Switzerland is all 220 volt. All you ned is a 55 amp or better breaker. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > As has already been pointed out you don't need much in the way of a > welder. However you do need to consider where boat is going to be > built. If you don't have access to the required AC power the welder > won't be of much use. So you need to think about your build site and > it's electrical service. > > I only point this out because it would be almost impossible to run > such a welder on the service feeding my house. > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Gerrit wrote: > > > O.k. > > > > Thank you all for the information.... > > > > So i will look for such a 225A buzzbox....I think I dont get a Lincoln > > here in switzerland, but I will see what I get. Tomorrow I will drive > > to different dealers here around 20 miles... > > > > I will try out with scrap during winter with it and then begin in > > spring with the hull. Will be about the steelprices here too when to > > start... > > > > > > Greetings, > > Gerrit > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 18464|18446|2008-10-07 19:40:29|David Frantz|Re: what welding machine?|That is nice! My whole house, right now, runs off a 50 amp breaker which is why I mentioned the thought. I'm not even sure the lateral could handle 50 amps continously, all of late 1940s tech. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:07 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Switzerland is all 220 volt. All you ned is a 55 amp or better > breaker. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > wrote: >> >> As has already been pointed out you don't need much in the way of a >> welder. However you do need to consider where boat is going to be >> built. If you don't have access to the required AC power the welder >> won't be of much use. So you need to think about your build site >> and >> it's electrical service. >> >> I only point this out because it would be almost impossible to run >> such a welder on the service feeding my house. >> >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Gerrit wrote: >> >>> O.k. >>> >>> Thank you all for the information.... >>> >>> So i will look for such a 225A buzzbox....I think I dont get a >>> Lincoln >>> here in switzerland, but I will see what I get. Tomorrow I will >>> drive >>> to different dealers here around 20 miles... >>> >>> I will try out with scrap during winter with it and then begin in >>> spring with the hull. Will be about the steelprices here too when to >>> start... >>> >>> >>> Greetings, >>> Gerrit >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>> unsubscribe@... >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18465|18394|2008-10-07 20:00:15|Carl Volkwein|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|Has any one tried something like a "bent shaft weed eater, you could do away with the string head, and put mabe a plywood and fiberglass propeller, and mount an alternator where the engine used to be. Then some type of bracket in the middle of the shaft so you could hang it over the side, it'd be a sort of "tow behind generator"     carlvolkwein@... --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 10:47 PM When you are on a tack it stay to one side and not generate any power. The pendulum is self centering and would work all the time. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "RICHARD KOKEMOOR" To: Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ? > Just another idea: instead of using a bulky, heavy pendulum (which if > it got loose in a seaway could be dangerous) and complicated gears and > clutches, why not just go linear? Mount a tube athwartships (perhaps high > and forward in the cabin where it wouldn't be in the way) surrounded by > copper coils. Inside is a track or raceway that carries a permanent > magnet back and forth across the vessel as it rolls, inducing an > electrical current in the coils, which can then be harvested with the > electronics described by SHANE and Darren and then stored in the > batteries. > A similar but purely mechanical device could aid ventilation > (unrelated to the electrical system): a tube athwartships with a fairly > close fitting lightweight plastic ball inside, an intake vent going up > through the cabin roof in the center and exhaust vents at either extreme > inside. The ball captures outside air each time it rolls past the intake > and pushes it inside the cabin until it reaches the end, when it starts > toward the other side. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18466|17655|2008-10-07 20:47:14|Tom Mann|Re: aluminium pilot house|Hello Shane Looks good to me. Wish I knew how to work with CAD like that. Tom On 10/6/08, Shane Duncan wrote: > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/view/b04f?b=7 > > > here is a CAD pic of my aluminum pilothouse in 4mm > had a mate drew in up on Rhino a 3D cad package > he designs lobster boats so was quite help-full re scantlings in ally > will save around 160kgs up to > will put that in the keel > > going for stick on toughened glass > its all the rage down here for lobster boats > even the military are using it now on the high speed frigates > not too expensive $85 per porthole > cheers > shane > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18467|18446|2008-10-07 23:26:57|Paul Wilson|Re: what welding machine?|I doubt a welder capable of 225A will be single phase. The small single phase hobby welders seem to max out at about 160 amps, have a low strike voltage and poor duty cycle. You could power a two phase welder off the same circuit that feeds your oven if you can't get a separate power circuit at your house. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 11:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: what welding machine? Switzerland is all 220 volt. All you ned is a 55 amp or better breaker. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , David Frantz wrote: > > As has already been pointed out you don't need much in the way of a > welder. However you do need to consider where boat is going to be > built. If you don't have access to the required AC power the welder > won't be of much use. So you need to think about your build site and > it's electrical service. > > I only point this out because it would be almost impossible to run > such a welder on the service feeding my house. > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Gerrit wrote: > > > O.k. > > > > Thank you all for the information.... > > > > So i will look for such a 225A buzzbox....I think I dont get a Lincoln > > here in switzerland, but I will see what I get. Tomorrow I will drive > > to different dealers here around 20 miles... > > > > I will try out with scrap during winter with it and then begin in > > spring with the hull. Will be about the steelprices here too when to > > start... > > > > > > Greetings, > > Gerrit > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1711 - Release Date: 10/7/2008 6:40 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18468|18394|2008-10-07 23:31:45|vic_lub|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations Wow lotsa reading there.... I dunno if i wanna sit and learn all that...they use hieroglyphic's in there math for cripes sake....im too old to learn ancient eqyption... So the hopes to make much power is minimal... Just being able to top the last %10 float charge for deep cycle charging would be good enough for me.... Cheers Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 04:07:35AM -0000, vic_lub wrote: > > As long as the magnet passes through the coil it will generate > > power.... > > In order to generate anything resembling _useful_ amounts of power, you > need a minimum combination of magnet size, coil diameter and inductance, > and speed of movement. I suggest reading up on Maxwell's law - > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations > > - as well as considering the known facts. I.e., the Windbelt generator > mentioned here and demonstrated in the video, with two magnets moving > in and out of their paired coils several thousand times per minute, puts > out 85 *milliamps* (this is after a lot of research and fine- tuning.) > That's enough to light a pair of LEDs and run a clock and a radio - just > - but it's not in any way useful for the quantities of power consumed on > a boat. E.g., 24 hours of charging with that generator would give you > about 20 minutes of operation on an average laptop, or about an hour of > running an anchor light. > > > fast and spinning would improve power output.... > > Fast, yes. Spinning, no. Rotation is just the most efficient method we > have of keeping the magnet and the coil in close proximity while moving > them at high speed in relation to each other. > > I don't want to spoil a good dream, but power generation isn't all that > easy. If it was, we wouldn't need to spend all that money on spars, > rigging, and sails. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18469|17655|2008-10-07 23:44:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 05:47:10PM -0700, Tom Mann wrote: > Hello Shane > Looks good to me. > Wish I knew how to work with CAD like that. Not that hard - you just need some practice. And now, you don't have to pay 13 grand or whatever for AutoCAD to get it: http://sketchup.google.com/ Google is doing some amazing stuff these days. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18470|18394|2008-10-08 00:24:13|Ben Okopnik|Re: Another way of making on-board electricity ?|On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 03:31:43AM -0000, vic_lub wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations > > Wow lotsa reading there.... > I dunno if i wanna sit and learn all that...they use hieroglyphic's > in there math for cripes sake....im too old to learn ancient > eqyption... [laugh] You're not going to be cruising in the Red Sea, then? Those equations just state the relationship between the electric charge, the magnetic field, the electric field, and the electric current. The practical end of it isn't all that complex: if you move a magnet and a wire past each other, you'll generate a power spike in the wire as well as physical resistance to the movement of the magnet (equal and opposite, of course.) The current you generate depends on the number of wires (i.e., turns in a coil), the size and distance from the magnet to the wire, and the speed of movement of one past the other. Again, in practical terms - a 1" diameter magnet spinning at 1000 rpm within 1/4" of 1000 turn coil of, say, #30 wire will generate about 30 milliamps at about 4 volts. Scaling up from that is fairly linear, so you can guess fairly closely about what you'd get. Generally the numbers are pretty disappointing for most homebrewed rigs. > So the hopes to make much power is minimal... > Just being able to top the last %10 float charge for deep cycle > charging would be good enough for me.... Float is, what, 4% of capacity? That's what I seem to recall, anyway. That would be 4 amps on a 100-amp battery; a pretty significant challenge for a home-made generator. It's certainly possible, but it's neither simple nor all that cheap. Here's a fellow that built one for ~$150 that's supposed to generate 50-250W (i.e., ~4-20 amps at 12v): http://www.thekevdog.com/projects/wind_generator/ There's lots of others on the Web as well. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18471|18436|2008-10-08 00:43:58|Aaron Williams|Re: electric motor swain?|Martin I am still aways from making the final descision on what I will use for power.  A 600+ pound engine and transmision is more than the electric motor 65 and genarator  180 Fuel?  Batteries are heavy yes but would be part of the ballest. Although I have not found any that would fit inside the twin keels very well. Aaron  From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 4:12 AM Aaron, The down side is the weigh of the batteries that adds up to the weigh of the generator wich you need if you want to run continiously and some galons of diesel too. Martin. ____________ _________ _________ __ > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: akenai@yahoo. com > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:12:56 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > > > Martin > > I have been looking at re-e-power.com They have external mounted pod units. The only other electric motor that I would conscider for my BS36 was the thoosa brand at www.ngcmarine. com They do cover a lot of info at the electricboats group. > Aaron > > --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > From: Martin Demers > Subject: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 2:10 PM > > Hi, > > I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for > sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information for > the conversion is now more easily available. > I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or if > someone is considering it. > I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I > was condidering the possibility of going electric. > Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for > a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are the > questions I am asking myself? > > any thoughts ? > > Martin. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18472|18446|2008-10-08 02:20:37|Gerrit|Re: what welding machine?|I will look for the power what I get there at building place...I will use a stick welder, because I build all the ship outside and I dont neeed the welder for any kind of alu welding. So I think it wont be a good idea about using gas because the wind outside. My expiriences in welding are small, but I will train to use the stick welder during winter and did look for a good book about stick welding which I ordered from germany. I will reduce my theories for just that, what I need to do exactly the work on the boat and I will reduce my investment on money in the same way. I know there are a lot of "nice" things which one could use and have fun with, but I will build as easy and simple as possible without missing a first class result. Fitting out the boat will follow the same way...as I try to simplify anything in my life since many years too... There are a lot of things to do and I wont "loose the ground" in that. Better take my time to do other things like freshing up my navigation knowledge and maybe learning french language for my following voyages with my boat. And I just start collecting V4A and lead what takes some time too...| 18473|18446|2008-10-08 03:45:45|James|Re: what welding machine?|whereabouts are you , Gerrit ? ? jim ( scotland ) On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:20 AM, Gerrit wrote: > I will look for the power what I get there at building place...I will > use a stick welder, because I build all the ship outside and I dont > neeed the welder for any kind of alu welding. > > So I think it wont be a good idea about using gas because the wind > outside. My expiriences in welding are small, but I will train to use > the stick welder during winter and did look for a good book about > stick welding which I ordered from germany. > > I will reduce my theories for just that, what I need to do exactly the > work on the boat and I will reduce my investment on money in the same > way. I know there are a lot of "nice" things which one could use and > have fun with, but I will build as easy and simple as possible without > missing a first class result. Fitting out the boat will follow the > same way...as I try to simplify anything in my life since many years > too... > > There are a lot of things to do and I wont "loose the ground" in that. > Better take my time to do other things like freshing up my navigation > knowledge and maybe learning french language for my following voyages > with my boat. And I just start collecting V4A and lead what takes some > time too... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18474|18436|2008-10-08 04:37:50|Paul Wilson|Re: electric motor swain?|Hi Martin, I am a skeptic so I would be careful with the figures advertised. I would really doubt that for a given horsepower, a generator and electric motor combination would weigh less than the equivalent engine and transmission combination. It's hard to beat the efficiency of a motor and gearbox. If it does, then they have made a significant break-through in efficiency. It's more likely that you are getting a lot less horsepower for your money. Cheers, Paul Martin I am still aways from making the final descision on what I will use for power. A 600+ pound engine and transmision is more than the electric motor 65 and genarator 180 Fuel? Batteries are heavy yes but would be part of the ballest. Although I have not found any that would fit inside the twin keels very well. Aaron From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 4:12 AM Aaron, The down side is the weigh of the batteries that adds up to the weigh of the generator wich you need if you want to run continiously and some galons of diesel too. Martin. ____________ _________ _________ __ > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: akenai@yahoo. com > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:12:56 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > > > Martin > > I have been looking at re-e-power.com They have external mounted pod units. The only other electric motor that I would conscider for my BS36 was the thoosa brand at www.ngcmarine. com They do cover a lot of info at the electricboats group. > Aaron > > --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > From: Martin Demers > Subject: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 2:10 PM > > Hi, > > I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for > sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information for > the conversion is now more easily available. > I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or if > someone is considering it. > I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I > was condidering the possibility of going electric. > Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for > a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are the > questions I am asking myself? > > any thoughts ? > > Martin. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1713 - Release Date: 10/7/2008 6:40 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18475|18436|2008-10-08 07:57:19|Ben Okopnik|Re: electric motor swain?|On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 09:43:56PM -0700, Aaron Williams wrote: > Martin > I am still aways from making the final descision on what I will use > for power.  A 600+ pound engine and transmision is more than the > electric motor 65 and genarator  180 > Fuel?  Batteries are heavy yes but would be part of the > ballest. Although I have not found any that would fit inside the twin > keels very well. I'm rather a fan of electric drive - if I was building a boat right now, that's what I'd use - but I'm afraid that you're comparing apples to oranges here. Batteries are not fuel; they're simply a means of containing the fuel during the fill/consume cycle. You still need some way to charge them, with a whole lot of juice - and that still requires either an engine of some sort (i.e., a generator) or a whole king hell of a lot of alternate sources (i.e., solar panels.) The argument *for* this rig is that you can have a smaller engine running in much more economic regime - i.e., a constant speed for maximum efficiency. On a (relatively) heavy monohull, the numbers just don't work out for solar panels. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18476|18436|2008-10-08 08:18:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: electric motor swain?|On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:37:42PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Martin, > > I am a skeptic so I would be careful with the figures advertised. I would > really doubt that for a given horsepower, a generator and electric motor > combination would weigh less than the equivalent engine and transmission > combination. Well, the genset plus the motor don't weigh that much - but the batteries do. > It's hard to beat the efficiency of a motor and gearbox. If > it does, then they have made a significant break-through in efficiency. Not really. A typical internal combustion engine runs at 15% efficiency; if you add a turbocharger, you can possibly squeeze 20% out of it. The thermodynamic limit is ~37% for a steel engine (i.e., no matter what you do to improve it, you can never get above this figure without a complete change of basic design.) Reciprocating engines just aren't all that wonderful. Rotary engines are somewhat more efficient, but are still down in the low 20s. Mechanical transmissions are a good bit higher than that in efficiency - but high-power electric motors have efficiency ratings that typically _start_ at 90%. So, yes, you would save on the power transmission losses (and recoup some power while you were sailing.) Internal combustion is based on the idea of cheap and easily available fuel. It's not, and never was, based on efficient use of resources. The problem is that the fuel is no longer either cheap or easily available - but everybody seems to have forgotten that basic premise. Thus, our current slide to hell in a handbasket. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18477|18446|2008-10-08 08:19:49|sae140|Re: what welding machine?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I doubt a welder capable of 225A will be single phase. Pretty-much on the borderline - I've got a 240A BOC-Transarc which can either be wired for 220-240V single-phase, or 440V 3-phase. In practice single-phase is OK providing the lump is 'plumbed-in' directly to the fuse box as it pulls around 25A when burning 3.2mm rods on the 50 OCV setting. It would pull nearly 40A at 75 OCV, which I seldom use. If you're really stumped for a big AC supply, then consider a DC inverter. I have a hand-bag sized 140A Messer-Griesheim which has a duty-cycle of 100% at 100A and 35% at 140A, so will happily burn 3.2mm rods all day from a 13A socket. Having said that, if possible opt for the simple buzz-box, as there's almost nothing to go wrong with 'em. Colin| 18478|18436|2008-10-08 10:28:23|Aaron Williams|Re: electric motor swain?|Paul The electric motor is more efficient in power output but the power does have to be made from somewhere. battery supply charged through all of the means everyone here talks about solar, wind generators, dragging a generator in the water while under sail. The inboard diesel generator is the least efficient option for charging but still seams to be necessary for long term motoring. Aaron --- On Wed, 10/8/08, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: RE: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 12:37 AM Hi Martin, I am a skeptic so I would be careful with the figures advertised. I would really doubt that for a given horsepower, a generator and electric motor combination would weigh less than the equivalent engine and transmission combination. It's hard to beat the efficiency of a motor and gearbox. If it does, then they have made a significant break-through in efficiency. It's more likely that you are getting a lot less horsepower for your money. Cheers, Paul Martin I am still aways from making the final descision on what I will use for power. A 600+ pound engine and transmision is more than the electric motor 65 and genarator 180 Fuel? Batteries are heavy yes but would be part of the ballest. Although I have not found any that would fit inside the twin keels very well. Aaron From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 4:12 AM Aaron, The down side is the weigh of the batteries that adds up to the weigh of the generator wich you need if you want to run continiously and some galons of diesel too. Martin. ____________ _________ _________ __ > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: akenai@yahoo. com > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:12:56 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > > > Martin > > I have been looking at re-e-power.com They have external mounted pod units. The only other electric motor that I would conscider for my BS36 was the thoosa brand at www.ngcmarine. com They do cover a lot of info at the electricboats group. > Aaron > > --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Martin Demers wrote: > > From: Martin Demers > Subject: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 2:10 PM > > Hi, > > I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for > sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information for > the conversion is now more easily available. > I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or if > someone is considering it. > I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I > was condidering the possibility of going electric. > Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for > a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are the > questions I am asking myself? > > any thoughts ? > > Martin. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1713 - Release Date: 10/7/2008 6:40 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18479|18436|2008-10-08 10:47:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: electric motor swain?|On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 07:28:17AM -0700, Aaron Williams wrote: > Paul > The electric motor is more efficient in power output but the power > does have to be made from somewhere. battery supply charged through > all of the means everyone here talks about solar, wind generators, > dragging a generator in the water while under sail. The inboard diesel > generator is the least efficient option for charging but still seams > to be necessary for long term motoring. Once you add in the fact that you can't pull yourself by your own shoelaces (i.e., you can't use a towable generator to make the power that will push the boat _and_ pull a towable generator; ditto wind gens, etc.), you're limited to either solar (not enough surface/too much weight for the average monohull), fuel cells (ridiculously expensive and way too heavy for those power densities) or a traditional fuel-based generator. As they say, TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18480|18436|2008-10-08 15:00:40|Paul Wilson|Re: electric motor swain?|The inboard diesel generator is the least efficient option for charging but still seems to be necessary for long term motoring. Aaron I think that's why I wouldn't have an electric motor drive system. If we could get rid of the generator, it would be an easy decision. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18481|18436|2008-10-08 15:00:48|Paul Wilson|Re: electric motor swain?|Hi Ben, Yup, my assumption was that there would be an internal combustion motor as a generator. Most of these decisions, I think, eventually get based on the end use of the boat. The difference in the needs of a boat looking for power to get in and out of a marina is hugely different from the needs of a boat that wants to motor for 3 days straight to get into port. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:37:42PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Martin, > > I am a skeptic so I would be careful with the figures advertised. I would > really doubt that for a given horsepower, a generator and electric motor > combination would weigh less than the equivalent engine and transmission > combination. Well, the genset plus the motor don't weigh that much - but the batteries do. > It's hard to beat the efficiency of a motor and gearbox. If > it does, then they have made a significant break-through in efficiency. Not really. A typical internal combustion engine runs at 15% efficiency; if you add a turbocharger, you can possibly squeeze 20% out of it. The thermodynamic limit is ~37% for a steel engine (i.e., no matter what you do to improve it, you can never get above this figure without a complete change of basic design.) Reciprocating engines just aren't all that wonderful. Rotary engines are somewhat more efficient, but are still down in the low 20s. Mechanical transmissions are a good bit higher than that in efficiency - but high-power electric motors have efficiency ratings that typically _start_ at 90%. So, yes, you would save on the power transmission losses (and recoup some power while you were sailing.) Internal combustion is based on the idea of cheap and easily available fuel. It's not, and never was, based on efficient use of resources. The problem is that the fuel is no longer either cheap or easily available - but everybody seems to have forgotten that basic premise. Thus, our current slide to hell in a handbasket. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1713 - Release Date: 10/7/2008 6:40 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18482|18446|2008-10-08 15:26:39|Gerrit|Re: what welding machine?|Hi Jim Im from switzerland near Bern... I buyed a stick welder today. No easy job to get one here...Everyone wanted to sell gas and sometimes inverters around 140A....Nearly no "normal" welders here, and then too, the most only up to 160A... My only moves up to 200A, maybe really useful up to 160A (I hope so)...I hope it will be enough? He can be powered by 230V and 400V.... What sticks are to use for 1/4, 1/8 and 3/16 plates? I saw R and RC possible in 2,0mm, 2,5mm, 3,2mm and 4,0mm. What should I try for my different works? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > whereabouts are you , Gerrit ? ? jim ( scotland ) > > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:20 AM, Gerrit wrote: > > > I will look for the power what I get there at building place...I will > > use a stick welder, because I build all the ship outside and I dont > > neeed the welder for any kind of alu welding. > > > > So I think it wont be a good idea about using gas because the wind > > outside. My expiriences in welding are small, but I will train to use > > the stick welder during winter and did look for a good book about > > stick welding which I ordered from germany. > > > > I will reduce my theories for just that, what I need to do exactly the > > work on the boat and I will reduce my investment on money in the same > > way. I know there are a lot of "nice" things which one could use and > > have fun with, but I will build as easy and simple as possible without > > missing a first class result. Fitting out the boat will follow the > > same way...as I try to simplify anything in my life since many years > > too... > > > > There are a lot of things to do and I wont "loose the ground" in that. > > Better take my time to do other things like freshing up my navigation > > knowledge and maybe learning french language for my following voyages > > with my boat. And I just start collecting V4A and lead what takes some > > time too... > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18483|18436|2008-10-08 15:27:51|David Frantz|Re: electric motor swain?|That is pretty much the opposite of reality. What happens with diesel electric systems is that the motor/alternator are tuned for very effiecent operation at one speed. Electronics are then used to drive the propelling motor which has a low friction coupling to the shaft. As to gear boxes there is a lot of loss there both mechanically and in the sense that the engine almost never operates at optimal revs. Diesel electric propulsion has been around a very long time. It has only recently migrated to smaller platforms due to better electronic controls. Trains are one often given example but so to do some of the larger construction equipment made today. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 8, 2008, at 4:37 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Martin, > > I am a skeptic so I would be careful with the figures advertised. I > would > really doubt that for a given horsepower, a generator and electric > motor > combination would weigh less than the equivalent engine and > transmission > combination. It's hard to beat the efficiency of a motor and > gearbox. If > it does, then they have made a significant break-through in > efficiency. > It's more likely that you are getting a lot less horsepower for > your money. > > Cheers, Paul > > Martin > I am still aways from making the final descision on what I will use > for > power. A 600+ pound engine and transmision is more than the > electric motor > 65 and genarator 180 > Fuel? Batteries are heavy yes but would be part of the ballest. > Although I > have not found any that would fit inside the twin keels very well. > Aaron > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com %40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 4:12 AM > > Aaron, > > The down side is the weigh of the batteries that adds up to the > weigh of the > generator wich you need if you want to run continiously and some > galons of > diesel too. > > Martin. > ____________ _________ _________ __ >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> From: akenai@yahoo. com >> Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:12:56 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? >> >> >> Martin >> >> I have been looking at re-e-power.com They have external mounted pod > units. The only other electric motor that I would conscider for my > BS36 was > the thoosa brand at www.ngcmarine. com They do cover a lot of info > at the > electricboats group. >> Aaron >> >> --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Martin Demers wrote: >> >> From: Martin Demers >> Subject: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 2:10 PM >> >> Hi, >> >> I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for >> sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information >> for >> the conversion is now more easily available. >> I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or if >> someone is considering it. >> I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I >> was condidering the possibility of going electric. >> Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for >> a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are >> the >> questions I am asking myself? >> >> any thoughts ? >> >> Martin. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1713 - Release Date: > 10/7/2008 > 6:40 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18484|18446|2008-10-08 15:40:41|James|Re: what welding machine?|Gerrit , *others* can advise you better regarding sticks , i mainly use MIG now , rarely need my 35 year old buzzbox . I do recommend the Haynes book of welding , from amazon . We ski each february in Engelberg . Love it . (except i can NEVER get my email to work properly to contact the berghaus ! ) jim On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:26 PM, Gerrit wrote: > Hi Jim > > Im from switzerland near Bern... > > I buyed a stick welder today. No easy job to get one here...Everyone > wanted to sell gas and sometimes inverters around 140A....Nearly no > "normal" welders here, and then too, the most only up to 160A... > > My only moves up to 200A, maybe really useful up to 160A (I hope > so)...I hope it will be enough? He can be powered > by 230V and 400V.... > > What sticks are to use for 1/4, 1/8 and 3/16 plates? I saw R and RC > possible in 2,0mm, 2,5mm, 3,2mm and 4,0mm. What should I try for my > different works? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > > > whereabouts are you , Gerrit ? ? jim ( scotland ) > > > > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:20 AM, Gerrit wrote: > > > > > I will look for the power what I get there at building place...I > will > > > use a stick welder, because I build all the ship outside and I dont > > > neeed the welder for any kind of alu welding. > > > > > > So I think it wont be a good idea about using gas because the wind > > > outside. My expiriences in welding are small, but I will train to use > > > the stick welder during winter and did look for a good book about > > > stick welding which I ordered from germany. > > > > > > I will reduce my theories for just that, what I need to do exactly the > > > work on the boat and I will reduce my investment on money in the same > > > way. I know there are a lot of "nice" things which one could use and > > > have fun with, but I will build as easy and simple as possible without > > > missing a first class result. Fitting out the boat will follow the > > > same way...as I try to simplify anything in my life since many years > > > too... > > > > > > There are a lot of things to do and I wont "loose the ground" in that. > > > Better take my time to do other things like freshing up my navigation > > > knowledge and maybe learning french language for my following voyages > > > with my boat. And I just start collecting V4A and lead what takes some > > > time too... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18485|18436|2008-10-08 15:58:04|David Frantz|Re: electric motor swain?|I think the point that is being missed here is that you still win with a generator. Even if you do away with the batteries you still win from the standpoint of economics. Now I know that many see batteries as a maintenance and expense headache. I'm not going to dismiss the maintenance end of the headache but one should think about the expense carefully. One thing that is bothersome is all the effort that goes into putting lead into the keel that then becomes dead weight. That is weight that does nothing for you. The perspective of this novice is that a keel designed to hold it's weight as batteries might be a good idea. The biggest problem would be finding the right sort off cell to to down there. Also I think that one thing that is notable with people using battery only driven electric systems is that they don't see them as cruising drives. That is they are more of a propulsion source for getting in and out of harbors and such. For that sort of usage they are far better than outboards. It is an issue of expectations you simply won't cruise around the world on one battery charge. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 8, 2008, at 3:00 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > The inboard diesel generator is the least efficient option for > charging but > still seems to be necessary for long term motoring. > Aaron > > I think that's why I wouldn't have an electric motor drive system. > If we > could get rid of the generator, it would be an easy decision. > > Cheers, Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18486|18446|2008-10-08 16:09:57|Gerrit|Re: what welding machine?|Hi Jim I dont know much about welders (maybe nothing ;-). I just wanted to buy one for welding my boat. After finishing that, maybe i will never touch the welder again. I will just learn enough to do exactly the job for that work.... Engelberg is a good place. I know it from doing paragliding... Have you ever been in the "Lauterbrunnental"? "Kleine Scheidegg" and others are very nice for skiing too. You are right under the "Eiger North" with about 4000m there. Very impressioned! Of course here between Thun, Interlaken and around are very beautiful places. More for skiing than for sailing, of course...But with a small boat you can do nice daysailing at the several lakes here. Greetings, Gerrit --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > Gerrit , *others* can advise you better regarding sticks , i mainly use MIG > now , rarely need my 35 year old buzzbox . I do recommend the Haynes book > of welding , from amazon . > > We ski each february in Engelberg . Love it . (except i can NEVER get my > email to work properly to contact the berghaus ! ) > jim | 18487|18436|2008-10-08 18:11:46|Paul Wilson|Re: electric motor swain?|Hi David, I think relying on batteries for ballast instead of lead would be a bad idea. You would be compromising the stability of your boat. Batteries are heavy but not nearly as heavy as solid lead. Try picking up a block of lead the same size as a car battery. Bloody heavy. Also, salt water and batteries don't mix. The batteries must be vented so what happens when you get water in your bilge. How do you service a battery that is on the bottom of a keel? Honestly, I haven't researched it lately, but I don't get the economics argument. I know things are changing fast, so I could be wrong, but when I checked it out a year or two ago, it didn't even come close. What size generator are you talking about? Assuming we are talking about being able to go farther than in and out of the marina, I would assume you need the equivalent of say 12 to 15 kilowatts for a 36 footer. A 12 kilowatt generator wouldn't be cheap. I am guessing probably as much as the equivalent diesel. Add motor, wiring, etc and I think the economics won't add up. Of course, you could try to go cheap and do it yourself, but you could go cheap with a diesel and marinize one yourself as well, so we need to have fair comparisons. There are a lot of assumptions going on here :). I think if I was on a budget and doing it all again, I would go for a used marine diesel or do a car conversion and try to keep it simple. Preferably a Kubota, Ford, Toyota or Nissan based diesel so parts could be obtained just about anywhere. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Frantz Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? I think the point that is being missed here is that you still win with a generator. Even if you do away with the batteries you still win from the standpoint of economics. Now I know that many see batteries as a maintenance and expense headache. I'm not going to dismiss the maintenance end of the headache but one should think about the expense carefully. One thing that is bothersome is all the effort that goes into putting lead into the keel that then becomes dead weight. That is weight that does nothing for you. The perspective of this novice is that a keel designed to hold it's weight as batteries might be a good idea. The biggest problem would be finding the right sort off cell to to down there. Also I think that one thing that is notable with people using battery only driven electric systems is that they don't see them as cruising drives. That is they are more of a propulsion source for getting in and out of harbors and such. For that sort of usage they are far better than outboards. It is an issue of expectations you simply won't cruise around the world on one battery charge. David A Frantz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18488|18436|2008-10-08 18:19:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: electric motor swain?|On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 03:11:23PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Honestly, I haven't researched it lately, but I don't get the economics > argument. I know things are changing fast, so I could be wrong, but when I > checked it out a year or two ago, it didn't even come close. What size > generator are you talking about? Assuming we are talking about being able > to go farther than in and out of the marina, I would assume you need the > equivalent of say 12 to 15 kilowatts for a 36 footer. A 12 kilowatt > generator wouldn't be cheap. I am guessing probably as much as the > equivalent diesel. Just FYI - a 15kW generator is ~$2k at Home Depot. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18489|18436|2008-10-08 18:45:37|Paul Wilson|Re: electric motor swain?|I am still a skeptic :). The DC electric motors on most of the small boat systems I have seen generate a lot of heat and aren't so efficient. From what I have heard on another board, the output of them dramatically drops off as the motors heat up. Trains and large ships are efficient, like you say, but don't run off their batteries and as far as I am aware, use high voltage AC. I think to get the kind of efficiency you are talking about, you need high voltage, preferably brushless, AC (inverter) driven systems with water cooled motors. The Fischer Panda systems are probably as efficient as you say and designed for small boats. They are extremely expensive and complex. http://www.whisperprop.de/eng Anyway, I am no expert and don't want to pretend to be one. I am sure what I have said is further expanded, debated, and fully thrashed out and then discounted on some of the many other boards for alternate power so anyone really interested should probably go there... Cheers, Paul That is pretty much the opposite of reality. What happens with diesel electric systems is that the motor/alternator are tuned for very effiecent operation at one speed. Electronics are then used to drive the propelling motor which has a low friction coupling to the shaft. As to gear boxes there is a lot of loss there both mechanically and in the sense that the engine almost never operates at optimal revs. Diesel electric propulsion has been around a very long time. It has only recently migrated to smaller platforms due to better electronic controls. Trains are one often given example but so to do some of the larger construction equipment made today. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 8, 2008, at 4:37 AM, Paul Wilson > wrote: > Hi Martin, > > I am a skeptic so I would be careful with the figures advertised. I > would > really doubt that for a given horsepower, a generator and electric > motor > combination would weigh less than the equivalent engine and > transmission > combination. It's hard to beat the efficiency of a motor and > gearbox. If > it does, then they have made a significant break-through in > efficiency. > It's more likely that you are getting a lot less horsepower for > your money. > > Cheers, Paul > > Martin > I am still aways from making the final descision on what I will use > for > power. A 600+ pound engine and transmision is more than the > electric motor > 65 and genarator 180 > Fuel? Batteries are heavy yes but would be part of the ballest. > Although I > have not found any that would fit inside the twin keels very well. > Aaron > > From: martin demers > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com %40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 4:12 AM > > Aaron, > > The down side is the weigh of the batteries that adds up to the > weigh of the > generator wich you need if you want to run continiously and some > galons of > diesel too. > > Martin. > ____________ _________ _________ __ >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> From: akenai@yahoo. com >> Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:12:56 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? >> >> >> Martin >> >> I have been looking at re-e-power.com They have external mounted pod > units. The only other electric motor that I would conscider for my > BS36 was > the thoosa brand at www.ngcmarine. com They do cover a lot of info > at the > electricboats group. >> Aaron >> >> --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Martin Demers wrote: >> >> From: Martin Demers >> Subject: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 2:10 PM >> >> Hi, >> >> I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for >> sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information >> for >> the conversion is now more easily available. >> I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or if >> someone is considering it. >> I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I >> was condidering the possibility of going electric. >> Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for >> a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are >> the >> questions I am asking myself? >> >> any thoughts ? >> >> Martin. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1713 - Release Date: > 10/7/2008 > 6:40 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1713 - Release Date: 10/7/2008 6:40 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18490|18436|2008-10-08 18:55:17|Paul Wilson|Re: electric motor swain?|Just FYI - a 15kW generator is ~$2k at Home Depot. Ben, Hehe...I gotta laugh. Next time let me feel that I am right for at least a minute. Do you know whatever happened to Seer? He was really into this subject and I am wondering if he is too busy repairing the boats he bought to bother now. I hope he's out cruising, enjoying life and well. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18491|18436|2008-10-08 19:22:45|David Frantz|Re: electric motor swain?|Well I can concede that buying used is going to beat anything electric simply because of a lack if a used electric market. So like you say we aren't comparing Apples to Apples in that case. Batteries can be considered optional for diesel electric propulsion. You do raise ligitimate concerns about water ingress but that is an issue with starter batteries and house batteries. It is not something boaters haven't had to deal with in the past. As to storage in the keel that does imply a keel of a different design. The problem with mass is real and obviously this would only work if the right weight distribution was found for the boat in question. As to the generator yeah it would need to be fairly good size. But it would be a generator that would hopefully be able to provide house power when needed. More importantly since it is free of the drive shaft you would be also fee to position it and the motor and screw shafts in optimal positions on the ship. The only thing odd here is that the screw shaft would need a thrust bearing of some sort. Yeah I know all new tech has negatives but we need to also look at the positives. Some of the biggest cruise ships made are diesel electric, they didn't go that way because the negatives outweighed the positives. As to economics the big issue is the savings in fuel. It also let's you rethink the feasability of haveing AC power for example. Or for example a large whinch with an AC motor drive. Once you are able to deliver AC power to a drive motor there is then the possibility of all sorts of device becoming powered from that source. Sure 12VDC powered solutions exist but they come with their own issues. I'm not saying that the simplicity of an all mechanical diesel drive is a bad thing. It isn't as it is well proven over the years. What I'm saying is that deisel electric, supplemented with batteries or not, offers you features that the old approaches don't. One of those features is more economical operation. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 8, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi David, > > I think relying on batteries for ballast instead of lead would be a > bad > idea. You would be compromising the stability of your boat. > Batteries are > heavy but not nearly as heavy as solid lead. Try picking up a block > of lead > the same size as a car battery. Bloody heavy. Also, salt water and > batteries don't mix. The batteries must be vented so what happens > when you > get water in your bilge. How do you service a battery that is on the > bottom of a keel? > > Honestly, I haven't researched it lately, but I don't get the > economics > argument. I know things are changing fast, so I could be wrong, but > when I > checked it out a year or two ago, it didn't even come close. What > size > generator are you talking about? Assuming we are talking about > being able > to go farther than in and out of the marina, I would assume you need > the > equivalent of say 12 to 15 kilowatts for a 36 footer. A 12 kilowatt > generator wouldn't be cheap. I am guessing probably as much as the > equivalent diesel. Add motor, wiring, etc and I think the economics > won't > add up. Of course, you could try to go cheap and do it yourself, > but you > could go cheap with a diesel and marinize one yourself as well, so > we need > to have fair comparisons. There are a lot of assumptions going on > here :). > > I think if I was on a budget and doing it all again, I would go for > a used > marine diesel or do a car conversion and try to keep it simple. > Preferably > a Kubota, Ford, Toyota or Nissan based diesel so parts could be > obtained > just about anywhere. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of David Frantz > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:58 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > > I think the point that is being missed here is that you still win with > a generator. Even if you do away with the batteries you still win > from the standpoint of economics. > > Now I know that many see batteries as a maintenance and expense > headache. I'm not going to dismiss the maintenance end of the > headache but one should think about the expense carefully. One thing > that is bothersome is all the effort that goes into putting lead into > the keel that then becomes dead weight. That is weight that does > nothing for you. The perspective of this novice is that a keel > designed to hold it's weight as batteries might be a good idea. The > biggest problem would be finding the right sort off cell to to down > there. > > Also I think that one thing that is notable with people using battery > only driven electric systems is that they don't see them as cruising > drives. That is they are more of a propulsion source for getting in > and out of harbors and such. For that sort of usage they are far > better than outboards. It is an issue of expectations you simply > won't cruise around the world on one battery charge. > > David A Frantz > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18492|17655|2008-10-08 19:34:54|Gary H. Lucas|Re: aluminium pilot house|Tom, Give it a try. Go to the Rhino website and download the trial (full!) version. It will only save 25 times, and it won't stay running for more than 24 hours straight. However you can learn a lot in that time. I own a copy of Rhino, and I work with Solid Edge in my job, lots of fun. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Mann" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > Hello Shane > Looks good to me. > Wish I knew how to work with CAD like that. > Tom > > > On 10/6/08, Shane Duncan wrote: >> >> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/view/b04f?b=7 >> >> >> here is a CAD pic of my aluminum pilothouse in 4mm >> had a mate drew in up on Rhino a 3D cad package >> he designs lobster boats so was quite help-full re scantlings in ally >> will save around 160kgs up to >> will put that in the keel >> >> going for stick on toughened glass >> its all the rage down here for lobster boats >> even the military are using it now on the high speed frigates >> not too expensive $85 per porthole >> cheers >> shane >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18493|18446|2008-10-08 19:50:21|Gary H. Lucas|Re: what welding machine?|Okay guys, a little dose of reality here. I learned to weld on a Lincoln 225 amp AC machine when I was 10. It was hooked to our 60 amp house service, along with the electric stove, electric oven, electric garage door opener, etc. Dad was an electrician, and I was one for about 20 years too. No problem blowing the main breaker with the welder. No problem with the Lincoln 250 DC machine we replaced it with either. Simple facts. A 50 amp breaker will carry 75 amps for five minutes or more. The duty cycle of that AC 225 welder at 225 amps is 10%. That's 1 minute of welding for 9 minutes of rest. At 160 amps it is still about 60%, or 6 minutes in 10. So even if you overload your breaker you will get lots of welding done. The arc voltage is around 30 volts. So the line current will be 30 volts/220 volts = about 30 amps load for a 225 amp weld on a 220 volt line. I have tripped a circuit breaker with the 250 amp Lincoln. That was while TIG welding heavy aluminum with it cranked all the way up and needing to preheat for several minutes. It was also because even though I was an electrician the welder was fed from a 30 amp breaker! We knew it called for a 50, but a 50 is WAY more expensive, and we only welded heavy stuff a couple of times a year. I'd just get a cup of coffee more often. All that said, I'd buy a used industrial DC welder. DC is easier to weld with. You also have a greater choice of rods. If you aren't an expert welder you want all the help you can get. Any welder will essentially cost you nothing, you can always sell it for very close to what you paid. So why screw around, buy it, weld up the boat, sell it. Or do a little welding for others and let it earn it's keep. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Frantz" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what welding machine? > That is nice! My whole house, right now, runs off a 50 amp breaker > which is why I mentioned the thought. I'm not even sure the lateral > could handle 50 amps continously, all of late 1940s tech. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:07 PM, brentswain38 > wrote: > >> Switzerland is all 220 volt. All you ned is a 55 amp or better >> breaker. >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz >> wrote: >>> >>> As has already been pointed out you don't need much in the way of a >>> welder. However you do need to consider where boat is going to be >>> built. If you don't have access to the required AC power the welder >>> won't be of much use. So you need to think about your build site >>> and >>> it's electrical service. >>> >>> I only point this out because it would be almost impossible to run >>> such a welder on the service feeding my house. >>> >>> >>> David A Frantz >>> >>> websterindustro@... >>> Sent from my iPhone. >>> >>> On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Gerrit wrote: >>> >>>> O.k. >>>> >>>> Thank you all for the information.... >>>> >>>> So i will look for such a 225A buzzbox....I think I dont get a >>>> Lincoln >>>> here in switzerland, but I will see what I get. Tomorrow I will >>>> drive >>>> to different dealers here around 20 miles... >>>> >>>> I will try out with scrap during winter with it and then begin in >>>> spring with the hull. Will be about the steelprices here too when to >>>> start... >>>> >>>> >>>> Greetings, >>>> Gerrit >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>>> unsubscribe@... >>>> ! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >> ! Groups Links >> >> >> > | 18494|18446|2008-10-08 20:23:46|David Frantz|Re: what welding machine?|Well in my case I've been involved in industrial electricity long enough to know my electrical service is marginal at best and wouldn't support operation if a welder and everything else that would have to run at the same time. There would be no joy in starting everything back up each time the welder decided to trip the breaker. Especially this time of year when you would be left in the dark. You are right in the sense that the load seen on the supply side varies with the load on the welder. But I do think your numbers are a ways off due to transformer based welders being very inefficent. For people interested you can find graphs or charts on Lincolns web site. As a side note the original breaker box in my house has room for four breakers. That is it. Eventually I will have a new service but until then i'd have to be real careful about the attachment of large loads. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 8, 2008, at 7:50 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Okay guys, a little dose of reality here. I learned to weld on a > Lincoln > 225 amp AC machine when I was 10. It was hooked to our 60 amp house > service, along with the electric stove, electric oven, electric > garage door > opener, etc. Dad was an electrician, and I was one for about 20 > years too. > No problem blowing the main breaker with the welder. No problem > with the > Lincoln 250 DC machine we replaced it with either. > > Simple facts. A 50 amp breaker will carry 75 amps for five minutes > or more. > The duty cycle of that AC 225 welder at 225 amps is 10%. That's 1 > minute > of welding for 9 minutes of rest. At 160 amps it is still about > 60%, or 6 > minutes in 10. So even if you overload your breaker you will get > lots of > welding done. The arc voltage is around 30 volts. So the line > current will > be 30 volts/220 volts = about 30 amps load for a 225 amp weld on a > 220 volt > line. > > I have tripped a circuit breaker with the 250 amp Lincoln. That was > while > TIG welding heavy aluminum with it cranked all the way up and > needing to > preheat for several minutes. It was also because even though I was an > electrician the welder was fed from a 30 amp breaker! We knew it > called for > a 50, but a 50 is WAY more expensive, and we only welded heavy stuff a > couple of times a year. I'd just get a cup of coffee more often. > > All that said, I'd buy a used industrial DC welder. DC is easier to > weld > with. You also have a greater choice of rods. If you aren't an > expert > welder you want all the help you can get. Any welder will > essentially cost > you nothing, you can always sell it for very close to what you > paid. So why > screw around, buy it, weld up the boat, sell it. Or do a little > welding for > others and let it earn it's keep. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Frantz" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 7:40 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what welding machine? > > >> That is nice! My whole house, right now, runs off a 50 amp breaker >> which is why I mentioned the thought. I'm not even sure the lateral >> could handle 50 amps continously, all of late 1940s tech. >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:07 PM, brentswain38 >> wrote: >> >>> Switzerland is all 220 volt. All you ned is a 55 amp or better >>> breaker. >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> As has already been pointed out you don't need much in the way of a >>>> welder. However you do need to consider where boat is going to be >>>> built. If you don't have access to the required AC power the >>>> welder >>>> won't be of much use. So you need to think about your build site >>>> and >>>> it's electrical service. >>>> >>>> I only point this out because it would be almost impossible to run >>>> such a welder on the service feeding my house. >>>> >>>> >>>> David A Frantz >>>> >>>> websterindustro@... >>>> Sent from my iPhone. >>>> >>>> On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Gerrit wrote: >>>> >>>>> O.k. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you all for the information.... >>>>> >>>>> So i will look for such a 225A buzzbox....I think I dont get a >>>>> Lincoln >>>>> here in switzerland, but I will see what I get. Tomorrow I will >>>>> drive >>>>> to different dealers here around 20 miles... >>>>> >>>>> I will try out with scrap during winter with it and then begin in >>>>> spring with the hull. Will be about the steelprices here too >>>>> when to >>>>> start... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Greetings, >>>>> Gerrit >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>>>> unsubscribe@... >>>>> ! Groups Links >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18495|18436|2008-10-08 20:42:09|vic_lub|Re: electric motor swain?|I keep going in circles with this idea.... Assuming you need a 12kw electric motor to propel the boat... 2 h.p. per kw is the rule of thumb for generators...26 hp engine running uses alot of fuel... 12kw / 24 volts = 500 amps for charging batteries...way too much amperage for charging unless you have a HUGE bank of batteries....so waste of fuel there... Maybe if one of the newer invertors that are available might make it more efficient...they will take all the power from a small generator then add the battery bank power if its needed to run the electric motor....kinda like a power booster...then a small generator could be used and alot less fuel... My 2 cents Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Well I can concede that buying used is going to beat anything electric > simply because of a lack if a used electric market. So like you say > we aren't comparing Apples to Apples in that case. > > Batteries can be considered optional for diesel electric propulsion. > You do raise ligitimate concerns about water ingress but that is an > issue with starter batteries and house batteries. It is not something > boaters haven't had to deal with in the past. As to storage in the > keel that does imply a keel of a different design. The problem with > mass is real and obviously this would only work if the right weight > distribution was found for the boat in question. > > As to the generator yeah it would need to be fairly good size. But it > would be a generator that would hopefully be able to provide house > power when needed. More importantly since it is free of the drive > shaft you would be also fee to position it and the motor and screw > shafts in optimal positions on the ship. The only thing odd here is > that the screw shaft would need a thrust bearing of some sort. Yeah > I know all new tech has negatives but we need to also look at the > positives. Some of the biggest cruise ships made are diesel > electric, they didn't go that way because the negatives outweighed the > positives. > > As to economics the big issue is the savings in fuel. It also let's > you rethink the feasability of haveing AC power for example. Or for > example a large whinch with an AC motor drive. Once you are able to > deliver AC power to a drive motor there is then the possibility of all > sorts of device becoming powered from that source. Sure 12VDC powered > solutions exist but they come with their own issues. > > I'm not saying that the simplicity of an all mechanical diesel drive > is a bad thing. It isn't as it is well proven over the years. What > I'm saying is that deisel electric, supplemented with batteries or > not, offers you features that the old approaches don't. One of those > features is more economical operation. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Oct 8, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > Hi David, > > > > I think relying on batteries for ballast instead of lead would be a > > bad > > idea. You would be compromising the stability of your boat. > > Batteries are > > heavy but not nearly as heavy as solid lead. Try picking up a block > > of lead > > the same size as a car battery. Bloody heavy. Also, salt water and > > batteries don't mix. The batteries must be vented so what happens > > when you > > get water in your bilge. How do you service a battery that is on the > > bottom of a keel? > > > > Honestly, I haven't researched it lately, but I don't get the > > economics > > argument. I know things are changing fast, so I could be wrong, but > > when I > > checked it out a year or two ago, it didn't even come close. What > > size > > generator are you talking about? Assuming we are talking about > > being able > > to go farther than in and out of the marina, I would assume you need > > the > > equivalent of say 12 to 15 kilowatts for a 36 footer. A 12 kilowatt > > generator wouldn't be cheap. I am guessing probably as much as the > > equivalent diesel. Add motor, wiring, etc and I think the economics > > won't > > add up. Of course, you could try to go cheap and do it yourself, > > but you > > could go cheap with a diesel and marinize one yourself as well, so > > we need > > to have fair comparisons. There are a lot of assumptions going on > > here :). > > > > I think if I was on a budget and doing it all again, I would go for > > a used > > marine diesel or do a car conversion and try to keep it simple. > > Preferably > > a Kubota, Ford, Toyota or Nissan based diesel so parts could be > > obtained > > just about anywhere. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > ] On > > Behalf Of David Frantz > > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:58 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? > > > > I think the point that is being missed here is that you still win with > > a generator. Even if you do away with the batteries you still win > > from the standpoint of economics. > > > > Now I know that many see batteries as a maintenance and expense > > headache. I'm not going to dismiss the maintenance end of the > > headache but one should think about the expense carefully. One thing > > that is bothersome is all the effort that goes into putting lead into > > the keel that then becomes dead weight. That is weight that does > > nothing for you. The perspective of this novice is that a keel > > designed to hold it's weight as batteries might be a good idea. The > > biggest problem would be finding the right sort off cell to to down > > there. > > > > Also I think that one thing that is notable with people using battery > > only driven electric systems is that they don't see them as cruising > > drives. That is they are more of a propulsion source for getting in > > and out of harbors and such. For that sort of usage they are far > > better than outboards. It is an issue of expectations you simply > > won't cruise around the world on one battery charge. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 18496|18436|2008-10-08 23:15:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: electric motor swain?|On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 03:55:11PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > Just FYI - a 15kW generator is ~$2k at Home Depot. > Ben, > Hehe...I gotta laugh. Next time let me feel that I am right for at > least a minute. Sorry 'bout that. :) On the other hand, I'd never recommend a gas engine on a boat, so maybe that's not really a fair comparison; a 15kW diesel is a bit more expensive (there's one on eBay right now, a demo model with 10 hours on it, for a "Buy it now" price of $3899 with a low reserve.) New ones are 5-8k. > Do you know whatever happened to Seer? He was really into this > subject and I am wondering if he is too busy repairing the boats he bought > to bother now. I hope he's out cruising, enjoying life and well. He's sorta evaporated into thin air. As I understand it, he's away on business - which requires keeping a tight lid on. Would be nice to see him back at some point. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18497|18436|2008-10-09 01:03:18|David Frantz|Re: electric motor swain?|12Kw should be close to 16 hp. so that seems about right for a smaller boat. Here is a report on generators: http:// www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/fpia04/os/ecportgen.pdf . Not a lot there other than interesting numbers on life times that those cheap consumer models offer up. HorsePower = KW / (0.746 x EFF(gen)) Where EFF(gen) is the effiecency of the generator. You are right in that the rule of thumb is 2hp per KW is often sighted and is due in part to the issue of efficency and partly due to derating an engine for the duty. 80% effiecency puts you close to the 2 hp per KW mark, leading to 20HP. Also realize those numbers are offered up to support across the line starting of induction motors. The actual HP a generator set requires to start large motors is often twice to three times the nominal motor rating so even more HP is required on the input side. Modern electronics allow for controlled startup of electric motors thus somewhat reducing the start demands. One thing you can't do when comparing such arraingments is to assume that your hear box and clutches will beat electronics and a tuned engine. That rarely happens as the engine is hardly ever near it's optimal RPM nor is the overall efficency of a gear box all that great. It should be noted that charging batteries is not very efficient at all. The idea is if you are going to have a generator set on board you need to send the current directly to the motors controls. Batteries are best seen as intermittant power storage devices for sources that are intermittant like the sun and wind. Generally people that rely on battery power only drives do not expect to cruise long distances on that battery power. That is a key concept, it is more like the endurance of a small outboard. The advantage you get with batteries is the ability to recharge from wind or sun light. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 8, 2008, at 8:42 PM, vic_lub wrote: > I keep going in circles with this idea.... > > Assuming you need a 12kw electric motor to propel the boat... > > 2 h.p. per kw is the rule of thumb for generators...26 hp engine > running uses alot of fuel... > > 12kw / 24 volts = 500 amps for charging batteries...way too much > amperage for charging unless you have a HUGE bank of batteries....so > waste of fuel there... > > Maybe if one of the newer invertors that are available might make it > more efficient...they will take all the power from a small generator > then add the battery bank power if its needed to run the electric > motor....kinda like a power booster...then a small generator could be > used and alot less fuel... > > > My 2 cents > > Vic > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > wrote: >> >> Well I can concede that buying used is going to beat anything > electric >> simply because of a lack if a used electric market. So like you > say >> we aren't comparing Apples to Apples in that case. >> >> Batteries can be considered optional for diesel electric > propulsion. >> You do raise ligitimate concerns about water ingress but that is > an >> issue with starter batteries and house batteries. It is not > something >> boaters haven't had to deal with in the past. As to storage in > the >> keel that does imply a keel of a different design. The problem > with >> mass is real and obviously this would only work if the right > weight >> distribution was found for the boat in question. >> >> As to the generator yeah it would need to be fairly good size. But > it >> would be a generator that would hopefully be able to provide house >> power when needed. More importantly since it is free of the > drive >> shaft you would be also fee to position it and the motor and screw >> shafts in optimal positions on the ship. The only thing odd here > is >> that the screw shaft would need a thrust bearing of some sort. > Yeah >> I know all new tech has negatives but we need to also look at the >> positives. Some of the biggest cruise ships made are diesel >> electric, they didn't go that way because the negatives outweighed > the >> positives. >> >> As to economics the big issue is the savings in fuel. It also > let's >> you rethink the feasability of haveing AC power for example. Or > for >> example a large whinch with an AC motor drive. Once you are able > to >> deliver AC power to a drive motor there is then the possibility of > all >> sorts of device becoming powered from that source. Sure 12VDC > powered >> solutions exist but they come with their own issues. >> >> I'm not saying that the simplicity of an all mechanical diesel > drive >> is a bad thing. It isn't as it is well proven over the years. > What >> I'm saying is that deisel electric, supplemented with batteries or >> not, offers you features that the old approaches don't. One of > those >> features is more economical operation. >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Oct 8, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: >> >>> Hi David, >>> >>> I think relying on batteries for ballast instead of lead would be > a >>> bad >>> idea. You would be compromising the stability of your boat. >>> Batteries are >>> heavy but not nearly as heavy as solid lead. Try picking up a > block >>> of lead >>> the same size as a car battery. Bloody heavy. Also, salt water > and >>> batteries don't mix. The batteries must be vented so what > happens >>> when you >>> get water in your bilge. How do you service a battery that is > on the >>> bottom of a keel? >>> >>> Honestly, I haven't researched it lately, but I don't get the >>> economics >>> argument. I know things are changing fast, so I could be wrong, > but >>> when I >>> checked it out a year or two ago, it didn't even come close. > What >>> size >>> generator are you talking about? Assuming we are talking about >>> being able >>> to go farther than in and out of the marina, I would assume you > need >>> the >>> equivalent of say 12 to 15 kilowatts for a 36 footer. A 12 > kilowatt >>> generator wouldn't be cheap. I am guessing probably as much as > the >>> equivalent diesel. Add motor, wiring, etc and I think the > economics >>> won't >>> add up. Of course, you could try to go cheap and do it > yourself, >>> but you >>> could go cheap with a diesel and marinize one yourself as well, > so >>> we need >>> to have fair comparisons. There are a lot of assumptions going > on >>> here :). >>> >>> I think if I was on a budget and doing it all again, I would go > for >>> a used >>> marine diesel or do a car conversion and try to keep it simple. >>> Preferably >>> a Kubota, Ford, Toyota or Nissan based diesel so parts could be >>> obtained >>> just about anywhere. >>> >>> Cheers, Paul >>> >>> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of David Frantz >>> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:58 AM >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric motor swain? >>> >>> I think the point that is being missed here is that you still win > with >>> a generator. Even if you do away with the batteries you still win >>> from the standpoint of economics. >>> >>> Now I know that many see batteries as a maintenance and expense >>> headache. I'm not going to dismiss the maintenance end of the >>> headache but one should think about the expense carefully. One > thing >>> that is bothersome is all the effort that goes into putting lead > into >>> the keel that then becomes dead weight. That is weight that does >>> nothing for you. The perspective of this novice is that a keel >>> designed to hold it's weight as batteries might be a good idea. > The >>> biggest problem would be finding the right sort off cell to to > down >>> there. >>> >>> Also I think that one thing that is notable with people using > battery >>> only driven electric systems is that they don't see them as > cruising >>> drives. That is they are more of a propulsion source for getting > in >>> and out of harbors and such. For that sort of usage they are far >>> better than outboards. It is an issue of expectations you simply >>> won't cruise around the world on one battery charge. >>> >>> David A Frantz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@... >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18498|18446|2008-10-09 02:39:31|Gerrit|Re: what welding machine?|Hi again For reality.... For me it is important to get the machine that does exactly the job for the boat. Nothing more! When someone seen the material list of the Swain 36 so it would be easy to see what thickness of sticks is maximal used and what length of weldings should be done in that different measurements. The welder has to do his job well, of course. But the question was what kind of welder do I need for building the 36 feet hull. So as I see the maximum thickness of sticks will be 4mm when I see right. When I need 35-40A per mm thickness so I need a maximum power about good 160A. When I get 20% welding time in this conditions, so I believe that it is enough. Please correct me if Im wrong. Im just a Greenhorn and did my own thoughts by looking at the material list and looking in some books what I need for this job. Of course it would be fine when the welder works with the normal 230V in house. So maybe a invertor would be good with this. But if I can get 400V...Is it important or much better to use the small invertor? For mobility is not a problem I think. Am I wrong? Greets, Gerrit| 18499|18446|2008-10-09 03:14:18|David Frantz|Re: what welding machine?|Hi Gerrit; As has been said a simple AC buzz box welder will do. When we say buzz box we mean the old, simple transformer based units. That is the absolute minimal required. A step up would be a welder with DC capability. An argument can be made that a DC welder would be easier to us for a novice. Inverter based welders are very nice and nice & expensive. There is no technical requirement for them based on hull welding. An inverter with TIG might come in handy for interior stainless work if you have a desire for that. Most do their interiors in wood so that isn't an issue. The cost issue with inverters may be a USA issue, they are expensive here and frankly they should be cheaper than they are. It is really a question of what you are facing in your locale pricing wise. I've never used an inverter myself but people I know who have really liked them. I might suggest taking a welding course locally if you can. Do this before investing in a welder. This will do a couple of things for you. One it will answer most of your questions by obtaining first hand knowledge. Second it will allow you to determine if you have the skills ready to go to weld a boat up. As to the welding currents I have a funny story for you. A long time ago I worked in a plant that had a really old buzz box. So old that only a couple of the taps worked. Got to the point that I did all the welding at 80 amps. The welds didn't always look real good but it did melt metal. The point is you can weld with a poor welder if you have to. A better welder just males life a little easier. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 9, 2008, at 2:39 AM, Gerrit wrote: > Hi again > > For reality.... > > For me it is important to get the machine that does exactly the job > for the boat. Nothing more! When someone seen the material list of the > Swain 36 so it would be easy to see what thickness of sticks is > maximal used and what length of weldings should be done in that > different measurements. The welder has to do his job well, of course. > But the question was what kind of welder do I need for building the 36 > feet hull. > > So as I see the maximum thickness of sticks will be 4mm when I see > right. When I need 35-40A per mm thickness so I need a maximum power > about good 160A. When I get 20% welding time in this conditions, so I > believe that it is enough. Please correct me if Im wrong. Im just a > Greenhorn and did my own thoughts by looking at the material list and > looking in some books what I need for this job. > > Of course it would be fine when the welder works with the normal 230V > in house. So maybe a invertor would be good with this. But if I can > get 400V...Is it important or much better to use the small invertor? > For mobility is not a problem I think. Am I wrong? > > > Greets, Gerrit > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18500|18500|2008-10-09 03:36:10|dianefalworth|Freebies 9th October|Dear Members A NEW Page of great Freebies was just added ready for Thursday 9th October. Visit Now! If you would like a veritable 'mountain' of free-stuff, take the time to visit the website below. It is packed with great freebies that ALL members can grab! There is even 250 Free Books you can download, straight away! You are sure to find something of interest, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES when you arrive at the site and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces...but its worth the work!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies! PS: When you have collected a few freebies for yourself, be nice and pass this email message forward to all your family and friends. Its very satisfying helping others and everyone loves something for nothing!| 18501|18446|2008-10-09 05:51:57|sae140|Re: what welding machine?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > So as I see the maximum thickness of sticks will be 4mm when I see > right. When I need 35-40A per mm thickness so I need a maximum power > about good 160A. When I get 20% welding time in this conditions, so I > believe that it is enough. Please correct me if Im wrong. Im just a > Greenhorn and did my own thoughts by looking at the material list and > looking in some books what I need for this job. > Hi Gerrit In practice, you could easily weld-up a boat hull with just 3.2mm rods, although a handful of 2.5 would be useful for root passes. A budget of 30-35A per mm is usually about right, occasionally up to 40A. Personally, I've never been stuck for Amps when welding 3.2mm with the 140A inverter I mentioned. The primary reason people suggest welding plant >200A is to get a reasonably high duty cycle around the 120-140A mark - although having the capacity to really turn the wick up if necessary is always useful. You don't need to use 4mm rods - remember that you will be welding the plating *from both sides*. If you need to weld any thick stuff, then prep (prepare) the metal edges with a bevel and multi-pass. It's easy enough to weld mild steel 10mm and thicker like this - in fact, if you take a college welding course they'll usually start you off with test pieces of steel of this thickness as it's nigh impossible for the beginner to burn right through it. I know this sounds counter-intuitive - but welding thick steel with an reasonable quality arc welder really isn't an issue, whereas this method has it's limitations when it comes to welding relatively thin metal. 'best Colin| 18502|18502|2008-10-09 09:19:49|Martin Demers|sandblasting with sand and water|Hi, I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water thinking that someone could get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so would benefit of a job being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, but I just learned that you can sandblast with sand and water, the water being use to eliminate the dust. My question now is has it be done inside a steel sailboat before? would it leaves a lot of water on the steel to make it rust or would it have time to evaporate fast enough or maybe with the air pressure use to spray the sand and water mix there would not be much water left to rust the steel? Did Anyone had some experience with that kind of sandblasting or know someone who has? Martin.| 18503|18436|2008-10-09 09:21:36|Robert|Re: electric motor swain?|Martin, i have installed two EPod 3000 on my Swain 36. The boat is still under construction. i don 't consider this a cheaper alternative than a diesel drive. my boat of course is not in the water, i.e. the system has not been tested. i will be installing several batteries and a generator. it also involves 4 more holes in the bottom of the boat. any way, i am sure this idea will get shot at from all angles by this group. This is the way i am going. There is a space saving advantage for me inside the boat. Kevin at Re-E-Power is at heck of a nice guy, but if you order expect a year or more to get it all together. Bob Meade, Leesburg FL --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for > sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information for > the conversion is now more easily available. > I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or if > someone is considering it. > I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I > was condidering the possibility of going electric. > Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for > a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are the > questions I am asking myself? > > > any thoughts ? > > Martin. > | 18504|18436|2008-10-09 09:33:41|martin demers|Re: electric motor swain?|Bob, I first thought that it was a cheaper alternative to a diesel engine, but you can get a used one of 30hp for around $2500.00, on my boat I need a v-drive, that will add a little bit to the price but it will still be under the price of an electric system. One of the thing I like about the electric system is, like you said, the space saving, it is a big advantage. When will your boat be in the water? Let us informed about the performance of your system when you try it. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: meademd@... > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:21:19 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: electric motor swain? > > > Martin, > i have installed two EPod 3000 on my Swain 36. The boat is still > under > construction. > i don 't consider this a cheaper alternative than a diesel drive. > my boat of course is not in the water, i.e. the system has not been > tested. > i will be installing several batteries and a generator. > it also involves 4 more holes in the bottom of the boat. > any way, i am sure this idea will get shot at from all angles by > this group. > This is the way i am going. There is a space saving advantage for > me inside > the boat. > > Kevin at Re-E-Power is at heck of a nice guy, but if you order > expect a year > or more to get it all together. > > Bob Meade, > Leesburg FL > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > wrote: >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for >> sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information > for >> the conversion is now more easily available. >> I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or > if >> someone is considering it. >> I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel > I >> was condidering the possibility of going electric. >> Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it > reliable for >> a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are > the >> questions I am asking myself? >> >> >> any thoughts ? >> >> Martin. >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18505|18436|2008-10-09 09:56:14|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: electric motor swain?|"The argument *for* this rig is that you can have a smaller engine running in much more economic regime - i.e., a constant speed for maximum efficiency." That's true, but a) you have to run the genset much longer to recharge the battery bank than you would have had to run an IC engine to directly do the work done by the electric drive motor b) the smaller your genset engine, the longer you'll have to run it, and listen to it c) the smaller your genset engine, the less you can get out of your own way powering the drive engine from the genset directly. A small genset makes sense only if you are making repeated short trips and can leave your boat for many hours with the genset running unattended. But then you could probably put it somewhere with power grid access for recharging.| 18506|18436|2008-10-09 10:04:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: electric motor swain?|On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 01:02:57AM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > Generally people that rely on battery power only drives do not expect > to cruise long distances on that battery power. That is a key > concept, it is more like the endurance of a small outboard. The > advantage you get with batteries is the ability to recharge from wind > or sun light. As I'd mentioned before, Bob Weiss does indeed cruise with an electric drive system. I assure you that he's _not_ a marina-locked weekend warrior. http://boatbits.blogspot.com/ http://boatbits.blogspot.com/search/label/Electric%20propulsion -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18507|18502|2008-10-09 10:06:52|Paul|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|I saw an exhibition of this method on a DIY show a while back. They were stripping rust from the chassis of an old car. They did mention that it was not as thorough at rust removal as normal blasting and required some follow up with traditional blasting in the more heavily rusted areas. It does leave the metal very wet. Paul H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water thinking that someone could > get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so would benefit of a job > being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, but I just learned that you can > sandblast with sand and water, the water being use to eliminate the dust. My question now is > has it be done inside a steel sailboat before? would it leaves a lot of water on the steel to > make it rust or would it have time to evaporate fast enough or maybe with the air pressure > use to spray the sand and water mix there would not be much water left to rust the steel? > > Did Anyone had some experience with that kind of sandblasting or know someone who has? > > > Martin. > | 18508|18446|2008-10-09 10:21:39|Gerrit|Re: what welding machine?|Hi Colin Thank you for your message. With the 160A I thought that I would be in a save way. I did read and searched for more information about the welder I bought...It has just 10% at 160A. It will make 20% at 115A... I gave it back directly today, because I think it would be waisted money and time and a lot of frustration doing with that. I saw a professional inverter with 160A in another shop. Not that cheap as the other one, but I think for a good price. You can weld up to 4mm sticks if you have to and weld up 60% with 140A. 3,25mm would be nonstop with that. So I thought that I could pull both halfs of the hull same time. Then I can weld changing left and right half and the welder is easy to handle (4,6kg)....You also can get a WIG-Burner for that if needed. Maybe it would be good to buy this one. If I dont want him after finish the hull maybe this one is more easy and efficient to sell...I will think about that.... Greetings, Gerrit --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > > > > So as I see the maximum thickness of sticks will be 4mm when I see > > right. When I need 35-40A per mm thickness so I need a maximum power > > about good 160A. When I get 20% welding time in this conditions, so I > > believe that it is enough. Please correct me if Im wrong. Im just a > > Greenhorn and did my own thoughts by looking at the material list and > > looking in some books what I need for this job. > > > > Hi Gerrit > > In practice, you could easily weld-up a boat hull with just 3.2mm > rods, although a handful of 2.5 would be useful for root passes. > > A budget of 30-35A per mm is usually about right, occasionally up to > 40A. Personally, I've never been stuck for Amps when welding 3.2mm > with the 140A inverter I mentioned. The primary reason people suggest > welding plant >200A is to get a reasonably high duty cycle around the > 120-140A mark - although having the capacity to really turn the wick > up if necessary is always useful. > > You don't need to use 4mm rods - remember that you will be welding the > plating *from both sides*. If you need to weld any thick stuff, then > prep (prepare) the metal edges with a bevel and multi-pass. It's easy > enough to weld mild steel 10mm and thicker like this - in fact, if you > take a college welding course they'll usually start you off with test > pieces of steel of this thickness as it's nigh impossible for the > beginner to burn right through it. > > I know this sounds counter-intuitive - but welding thick steel with an > reasonable quality arc welder really isn't an issue, whereas this > method has it's limitations when it comes to welding relatively thin > metal. > > 'best > Colin > | 18509|18446|2008-10-09 10:27:32|Ben Okopnik|Re: what welding machine?|On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 06:39:25AM -0000, Gerrit wrote: > > So as I see the maximum thickness of sticks will be 4mm when I see > right. When I need 35-40A per mm thickness so I need a maximum power > about good 160A. When I get 20% welding time in this conditions, so I > believe that it is enough. Please correct me if Im wrong. In theory, you could weld everything on the boat with 1mm rod - it would just take longer. So if you find that you're just short of being able to weld with 4mm rod, just use the next size down and make multiple passes. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18510|18502|2008-10-09 10:48:05|martin demers|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|There is certainly an adjustement for the ration air/water/sand on that kind of system, so you can through less water if desired. Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: p_hardy@... > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:06:51 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > > I saw an exhibition of this method on a DIY show a while back. They > were stripping rust from the chassis of an old car. They did mention > that it was not as thorough at rust removal as normal blasting and > required some follow up with traditional blasting in the more heavily > rusted areas. It does leave the metal very wet. > > Paul H > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water > thinking that someone could >> get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so > would benefit of a job >> being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, but I > just learned that you can >> sandblast with sand and water, the water being use to eliminate the > dust. My question now is >> has it be done inside a steel sailboat before? would it leaves a > lot of water on the steel to >> make it rust or would it have time to evaporate fast enough or > maybe with the air pressure >> use to spray the sand and water mix there would not be much water > left to rust the steel? >> >> Did Anyone had some experience with that kind of sandblasting or > know someone who has? >> >> >> Martin. >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18511|18436|2008-10-09 11:58:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: electric motor swain?|On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 06:56:08AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > "The argument *for* this rig is that you can have a smaller engine > running in much more economic regime - i.e., a constant speed for > maximum efficiency." > That's true, but a) you have to run the genset much longer to recharge > the battery bank than you would have had to run an IC engine to > directly do the work done by the electric drive motor [blink] I'm not sure how we came around to that scenario, but - running a generator to recharge the batteries after you've run the engine off the batteries is not a sensible method in any way, nor have I suggested anything like that. If you're going to run the motor, you drive it directly from the generator with any *extra* generated power (i.e., when you're not running the electric motor at full output) going into the batteries. > b) the smaller > your genset engine, the longer you'll have to run it, and listen to it Of course. It wouldn't make sense to have a genset that can't fully power your motor at your average usage level. You should be able to directly drive it at, say, 80% [1] of max output, and tap the rest off the batteries - which get recharged when you run the motor at a lower level. [1] I haven't run any numbers on this - that's just a SWAG. > c) the smaller your genset engine, the less you can get out of your > own way powering the drive engine from the genset directly. A small > genset makes sense only if you are making repeated short trips and can > leave your boat for many hours with the genset running unattended. > But then you could probably put it somewhere with power grid access > for recharging. That last would be the only situation in which I'd ever recommend running the motor straight off the batteries for any length of time. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18512|18502|2008-10-09 14:03:24|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|Black grit is now used commercially for grit blasting as workers compensation rules and care of those living/breathing nearby is paramount. The black grit is the slag from smelting coper. It's sharp and leavesd very little dust. I imagine wet sand would be heavy and difficult to remove. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:06 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water I saw an exhibition of this method on a DIY show a while back. They were stripping rust from the chassis of an old car. They did mention that it was not as thorough at rust removal as normal blasting and required some follow up with traditional blasting in the more heavily rusted areas. It does leave the metal very wet. Paul H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water thinking that someone could > get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so would benefit of a job > being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, but I just learned that you can > sandblast with sand and water, the water being use to eliminate the dust. My question now is > has it be done inside a steel sailboat before? would it leaves a lot of water on the steel to > make it rust or would it have time to evaporate fast enough or maybe with the air pressure > use to spray the sand and water mix there would not be much water left to rust the steel? > > Did Anyone had some experience with that kind of sandblasting or know someone who has? > > > Martin. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1715 - Release Date: 10/8/2008 7:19 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18513|18502|2008-10-09 15:20:22|James|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|i recently used a 5000psi pressure washer with a grit blast attachment to take the paint and rust off my old yacht trailer , it was not that efficient ,except for the internal angles --- i finished off with angle grinding using flap discs. jim On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Martin Demers wrote: > > > Hi, > > I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water thinking > that someone could > get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so would > benefit of a job > being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, but I just > learned that you can > sandblast with sand and water, the water being use to eliminate the dust. > My question now is > has it be done inside a steel sailboat before? would it leaves a lot of > water on the steel to > make it rust or would it have time to evaporate fast enough or maybe with > the air pressure > use to spray the sand and water mix there would not be much water left to > rust the steel? > > Did Anyone had some experience with that kind of sandblasting or know > someone who has? > > Martin. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18514|18502|2008-10-09 16:48:22|Paul Hardy|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|The system they used had a pressure washer that provided the spray pressure, not air so it would be just a water and sand mix. Paul H _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of martin demers Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 10:47 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water There is certainly an adjustement for the ration air/water/sand on that kind of system, so you can through less water if desired. Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > From: p_hardy@hotmail. com > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:06:51 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > > I saw an exhibition of this method on a DIY show a while back. They > were stripping rust from the chassis of an old car. They did mention > that it was not as thorough at rust removal as normal blasting and > required some follow up with traditional blasting in the more heavily > rusted areas. It does leave the metal very wet. > > Paul H > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water > thinking that someone could >> get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so > would benefit of a job >> being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, but I > just learned that you can >> sandblast with sand and water, the water being use to eliminate the > dust. My question now is >> has it be done inside a steel sailboat before? would it leaves a > lot of water on the steel to >> make it rust or would it have time to evaporate fast enough or > maybe with the air pressure >> use to spray the sand and water mix there would not be much water > left to rust the steel? >> >> Did Anyone had some experience with that kind of sandblasting or > know someone who has? >> >> >> Martin. >> > > > __________________________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1713 - Release Date: 10/7/2008 6:40 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18515|18502|2008-10-09 16:49:23|Paul|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|The system they used was powered by a pressure washer so there was no air involved, just sand and water Paul H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > There is certainly an adjustement for the ration air/water/sand on that kind of system, so you can through less water if desired. > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: p_hardy@... > > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:06:51 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > > > > > I saw an exhibition of this method on a DIY show a while back. They > > were stripping rust from the chassis of an old car. They did mention > > that it was not as thorough at rust removal as normal blasting and > > required some follow up with traditional blasting in the more heavily > > rusted areas. It does leave the metal very wet. > > > > Paul H > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water > > thinking that someone could > >> get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so > > would benefit of a job > >> being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, but I > > just learned that you can > >> sandblast with sand and water, the water being use to eliminate the > > dust. My question now is > >> has it be done inside a steel sailboat before? would it leaves a > > lot of water on the steel to > >> make it rust or would it have time to evaporate fast enough or > > maybe with the air pressure > >> use to spray the sand and water mix there would not be much water > > left to rust the steel? > >> > >> Did Anyone had some experience with that kind of sandblasting or > > know someone who has? > >> > >> > >> Martin. > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 18516|18502|2008-10-09 16:51:12|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|For outside blasting, beach sand is all you need. It's dusty, but not a problem for outside . Some say you get a better surface with silca or black stuff, but beach sand is as good as or better than wheelabrader shot. it should be sifted thru a window screen and thoroughly dried before use. The sand going into the wet blaster has to be very dry . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ian and Jean Campbell" wrote: > > Black grit is now used commercially for grit blasting as workers compensation rules and care of those living/breathing nearby is paramount. > > The black grit is the slag from smelting coper. It's sharp and leavesd very little dust. > > I imagine wet sand would be heavy and difficult to remove. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:06 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > > I saw an exhibition of this method on a DIY show a while back. They > were stripping rust from the chassis of an old car. They did mention > that it was not as thorough at rust removal as normal blasting and > required some follow up with traditional blasting in the more heavily > rusted areas. It does leave the metal very wet. > > Paul H > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water > thinking that someone could > > get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so > would benefit of a job > > being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, but I > just learned that you can > > sandblast with sand and water, the water being use to eliminate the > dust. My question now is > > has it be done inside a steel sailboat before? would it leaves a > lot of water on the steel to > > make it rust or would it have time to evaporate fast enough or > maybe with the air pressure > > use to spray the sand and water mix there would not be much water > left to rust the steel? > > > > Did Anyone had some experience with that kind of sandblasting or > know someone who has? > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1715 - Release Date: 10/8/2008 7:19 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18517|18502|2008-10-09 16:54:34|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|Friends blasted their boat in California with a wet blaster on a hot day. It bloomed a light rust, but they went along behind the blaster , drying it off with rags, . The heat dried it out quickly, and they painted it immediately, and had no problems in the next 15 years. Grinding the thicker rust off, then blasting what is left may work. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" wrote: > > I saw an exhibition of this method on a DIY show a while back. They > were stripping rust from the chassis of an old car. They did mention > that it was not as thorough at rust removal as normal blasting and > required some follow up with traditional blasting in the more heavily > rusted areas. It does leave the metal very wet. > > Paul H > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water > thinking that someone could > > get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so > would benefit of a job > > being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, but I > just learned that you can > > sandblast with sand and water, the water being use to eliminate the > dust. My question now is > > has it be done inside a steel sailboat before? would it leaves a > lot of water on the steel to > > make it rust or would it have time to evaporate fast enough or > maybe with the air pressure > > use to spray the sand and water mix there would not be much water > left to rust the steel? > > > > Did Anyone had some experience with that kind of sandblasting or > know someone who has? > > > > > > Martin. > > > | 18518|18518|2008-10-09 17:24:44|brentswain38|Common Screwups|There have been several common screwups on my boats that some builders been repeating a lot. Some have extended the rudder post a foot or more above the bulwark. This completely screws up the option of inside steering by trimtab , or the extremely simple , well proven, bullet proof self steering I've designed for my boats. When you weld the decks to the hull, the weld shrinkage pulls the decks onto the hull. When you weld 1/8th plate to 3/16th with 1/8th 7024, then try to break the weld , it always breaks on the 1/8th inch plate, well outside the weld . Keep this in mind when a welder tries to make your project into a make work effort for himself , putting his income ahead of your interests. Boats that are fully welded on both sides , with a full weld under the decks , tend to oilcan under the decks. I've seen this on several of my 36 footers when the sun is at the right angle, built by someone who is bent on turning the project into a make work project for themselves , and trying to maximise the number of hours they get out of the job. With 1/8th 7024 on top, there is absolutely no benefit in welding the decks on both sides. This is particularly true of the bottom of the anchor well , which if welded both sides , will alaways oil can badly. Some have insisted on only two pintles on the trimtab, which makes it so flimsey that six year old can easily pull the works out by hand. The third pintle makes it bullet proof. When a guy building a 36 wanted his stern tube and aperature put in and asked me how many hours it takes I said about three hours. He asked another guy, who has built a lot of my boats , and altho he charges $5 less an hour than me ,usually takes more than twice as long as me to do any given job, and he said about 8 hours. He then told the fabricating shop to go ahead. The shop ended up taking 35 hours , at an hourly rate the same as I was charging, and the result was an abortion. It is a mistake to assume that because someone quotes an hourly rate that is less, that the job will cost less, when the person giving the quote has a habit of taking twice as many hours or more to get the job done, and does whatever he can to maximise the number of hours he gets out of the job. This is sometimes the result of the fabricator having absolutely no cruising experience and wasting a lot of time on things that don't matter, and ignoring things that do.Offshore cruising experience can make a huge difference. Don't let a non cruising amateur with no cruising experience redesign a well proven boat. Sandblasters always insist on blasting the whole boat to white metal even where the primer is good and will cause no problem, in order to maximise the cash they get out of the job. You have to keep a close eye on what they are doing , or get a much higher bill than was called for . Steel fabricators sometimes do this too.| 18519|18436|2008-10-09 18:00:50|vic_lub|Re: electric motor swain?|Generators usually have a sweet spot running at about %80 load...fuel vs KW output.. After the motoring is done the generator will still need to run at that %80 load to be economical... With 12kw needed for the motor it would be a 15 kw generator needed to get %80.. Charging deep cycle batteries should not exceed 20% of the ampere- hour rating... 12kw at 24 volts makes 500 amps... Charging at 500Amps at %20 ampere-hour rating makes it a 2500 ampere- hour battery bank which using the trojan t 105 batteries would wiegh atleast 1488lbs and use atleast 11 cubic feet.. You could heat a electric hotwater tank to draw some load, but the water will be hot way before your batteries are charged... 15kw generator is going to need lotsa fuel... Cheers Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 06:56:08AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > "The argument *for* this rig is that you can have a smaller engine > > running in much more economic regime - i.e., a constant speed for > > maximum efficiency." > > That's true, but a) you have to run the genset much longer to recharge > > the battery bank than you would have had to run an IC engine to > > directly do the work done by the electric drive motor > > [blink] I'm not sure how we came around to that scenario, but - running > a generator to recharge the batteries after you've run the engine off > the batteries is not a sensible method in any way, nor have I suggested > anything like that. If you're going to run the motor, you drive it > directly from the generator with any *extra* generated power (i.e., when > you're not running the electric motor at full output) going into the > batteries. > > > b) the smaller > > your genset engine, the longer you'll have to run it, and listen to it > > Of course. It wouldn't make sense to have a genset that can't fully > power your motor at your average usage level. You should be able to > directly drive it at, say, 80% [1] of max output, and tap the rest off > the batteries - which get recharged when you run the motor at a lower > level. > > [1] I haven't run any numbers on this - that's just a SWAG. > > > c) the smaller your genset engine, the less you can get out of your > > own way powering the drive engine from the genset directly. A small > > genset makes sense only if you are making repeated short trips and can > > leave your boat for many hours with the genset running unattended. > > But then you could probably put it somewhere with power grid access > > for recharging. > > That last would be the only situation in which I'd ever recommend > running the motor straight off the batteries for any length of time. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18520|18446|2008-10-09 19:39:51|peter_d_wiley|Re: what welding machine?|I agree 100% with this. These days I have a lot of welding gear and I still use my stick welder with cellulose fluxed rods most of the time. I'm playing with a MIG spool gun loaded with flux cored but honestly, the spool gun was $600 and the constant current power supply was more. You can buy a good stick welder and a LOT of electrodes for that money. I had the luxury of a fully equipped shop for a lot of my working life and now I'm semi-retired, I have a few things I don't strictly need just because I can. I think from other messages you've got your welder now but if I was going to buy one for a boat job, I'd definitely buy one of the 160A inverter welders. These things will run off a domestic supply (240V 10A here in Australia), weigh only a few kilos and are therefore extremely portable. You don't need a big welder with 50' long 400A leads to handle the voltage drop, you take the welder to the work on the end of a good extension lead. We used one of these inverter welders aboard ship as a general purpose unit for jobs that were too much trouble or impossible to get to the shop - welding brackets to the hull for temporary installations etc. Personally I don't agree with using the 7000 series electrodes on mild steel. There's absolutely no benefit having the weld a different metal composition to the parent metal and we're talking thin sections anyway - 3mm to 6mm for the most part. The tensile strength difference is a nonsense and if anyone doesn't believe me, weld up some coupons and break them using a strain gauge, because I have done this when I did my welding tickets many years ago. I just use E4111 (E6011 in the US) rods for all my root runs and out of position work, then E4112 or E4113 rods for h/v fillets and the like. Colin is dead right, it's easy to weld 10 or 12mm or thicker plate with 3mm rods. You just do a proper joint prep (use a cutting torch to bevel the edges on really thick sections) and weld using multiple runs, flipping the job over to equalise the cooling stresses. I am much happier with structural welds done this way than I am using a MIG, unless the MIG is running 1.6mm wire or better. I KNOW I'm getting penetration using the stick welder on a high amperage setting, it just takes longer and there's a greater risk of distortion if you don't use the proper welding sequence. This only applies to thick plate of course. My old bibles were 'Metals and How To Weld Them' and the Lincoln Procedure manual on arc welding. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > > > > So as I see the maximum thickness of sticks will be 4mm when I see > > right. When I need 35-40A per mm thickness so I need a maximum power > > about good 160A. When I get 20% welding time in this conditions, so I > > believe that it is enough. Please correct me if Im wrong. Im just a > > Greenhorn and did my own thoughts by looking at the material list and > > looking in some books what I need for this job. > > > > Hi Gerrit > > In practice, you could easily weld-up a boat hull with just 3.2mm > rods, although a handful of 2.5 would be useful for root passes. > > A budget of 30-35A per mm is usually about right, occasionally up to > 40A. Personally, I've never been stuck for Amps when welding 3.2mm > with the 140A inverter I mentioned. The primary reason people suggest > welding plant >200A is to get a reasonably high duty cycle around the > 120-140A mark - although having the capacity to really turn the wick > up if necessary is always useful. > > You don't need to use 4mm rods - remember that you will be welding the > plating *from both sides*. If you need to weld any thick stuff, then > prep (prepare) the metal edges with a bevel and multi-pass. It's easy > enough to weld mild steel 10mm and thicker like this - in fact, if you > take a college welding course they'll usually start you off with test > pieces of steel of this thickness as it's nigh impossible for the > beginner to burn right through it. > > I know this sounds counter-intuitive - but welding thick steel with an > reasonable quality arc welder really isn't an issue, whereas this > method has it's limitations when it comes to welding relatively thin > metal. > > 'best > Colin > | 18521|18446|2008-10-09 19:44:56|peter_d_wiley|Re: what welding machine?|> As a side note the original breaker box in my house has room for four > breakers. That is it. Eventually I will have a new service but until > then i'd have to be real careful about the attachment of large loads. Sorry but I just can't help gloating. I have 415V power, 90A per phase, coming into my place. My shop is fed from a sub board with 16mm2 wire and a 63A 3 phase breaker. My only power problem is paying the bill if I use my supply to its capacity. Other than that, I don't give it a thought. PDW| 18522|18436|2008-10-09 22:05:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: electric motor swain?|On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 10:00:47PM -0000, vic_lub wrote: > Generators usually have a sweet spot running at about %80 load...fuel > vs KW output.. Actually, diesel output has been pretty well flattened over time (by good gearbox design and variable-speed transmissions, as I understand it.) For example: http://www.frontierpower.com/library/makingsense.htm That's a nice set of curves for continuous vs. intermittent usage and fuel consumption/torque production. Note that it varies only slightly across the range - from 0.345 to 0.39 lb/hp-hr, and only from 0.345 to 0.36 once you get past 1200rpm. > After the motoring is done the generator will still need to run at > that %80 load to be economical... > With 12kw needed for the motor it would be a 15 kw generator needed > to get %80.. If you follow what I said earlier - that you only need a generator that services 80% of max power, with the rest drawn from the batteries during the rare moments when you need full power - then you're looking at a 10kW generator for a 12kW motor. And, given that the fuel consumption is fairly steady across the range, you can turn that genset down to service your needs - driving the motor _and_ a bit of battery charging - and still run efficiently. > water will be hot way before your batteries are charged... > 15kw generator is going to need lotsa fuel... For that 10kW generator, it's less than a gallon an hour at max, and rather less at normal cruising speeds. Here's a bunch of guys doing some relevant calculations (the people in rec.crafts.metalworking are a *very* knowledgeable bunch; when I used to subscribe, ages ago, I found it very pleasant and educational): http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.crafts.metalworking/2006-06/msg03756.html -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18523|18502|2008-10-10 06:03:35|martin demers|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|You really need the air pressure, I think, if you really want to remove all the rust. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: p_hardy@... > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:49:22 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > > The system they used was powered by a pressure washer so there was no > air involved, just sand and water > > Paul H > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> There is certainly an adjustement for the ration air/water/sand > on that kind of system, so you can through less water if desired. >> >> Martin >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: p_hardy@... >>> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:06:51 +0000 >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water >>> >>> >>> I saw an exhibition of this method on a DIY show a while back. > They >>> were stripping rust from the chassis of an old car. They did > mention >>> that it was not as thorough at rust removal as normal blasting and >>> required some follow up with traditional blasting in the more > heavily >>> rusted areas. It does leave the metal very wet. >>> >>> Paul H >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water >>> thinking that someone could >>>> get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so >>> would benefit of a job >>>> being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, but I >>> just learned that you can >>>> sandblast with sand and water, the water being use to eliminate > the >>> dust. My question now is >>>> has it be done inside a steel sailboat before? would it leaves a >>> lot of water on the steel to >>>> make it rust or would it have time to evaporate fast enough or >>> maybe with the air pressure >>>> use to spray the sand and water mix there would not be much water >>> left to rust the steel? >>>> >>>> Did Anyone had some experience with that kind of sandblasting or >>> know someone who has? >>>> >>>> >>>> Martin. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18524|18502|2008-10-10 07:32:53|sae140|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > Hi, > > I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water thinking that someone could > get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so would benefit of a job > being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, Hi Martin - you may not be wrong about this ... Rust can certainly be removed with UHP water-jetting, but some authorities state that mill-scale cannot be removed using water alone (i.e. without added abrasive), yet several firms are claiming in their sales-pitch that this can be done. These are just two that I found with a quick 'Google': http://www.uhpsurfaceprep.co.uk/paint-stripping.php http://www.hydropressure.com/rentals.html So - don't give up on the idea yet - the challenge is how to generate several tens of thousands of PSI and I have serious doubts whether this could be achieved with DIY kit, so rental may be the only way to go. I'm pretty sure that if hot water was used then this, together with the heat generated by the process, would result in speedy evaporation and thus minimal rust-bloom. In practice it might be necessary to over-winter new steel to rust-off the mill-scale, but this might still be a method worth serious consideration ? Colin| 18525|18502|2008-10-10 10:42:41|Larry Dale|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|The question I have is will the hydroblasting leave a surface that paint will stick to. Using an abrasive leaves a roughen surface that paint will bond to. sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > Hi, > > I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water thinking that someone could > get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so would benefit of a job > being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, Hi Martin - you may not be wrong about this ... Rust can certainly be removed with UHP water-jetting, but some authorities state that mill-scale cannot be removed using water alone (i.e. without added abrasive), yet several firms are claiming in their sales-pitch that this can be done. These are just two that I found with a quick 'Google': http://www.uhpsurfaceprep.co.uk/paint-stripping.php http://www.hydropressure.com/rentals.html So - don't give up on the idea yet - the challenge is how to generate several tens of thousands of PSI and I have serious doubts whether this could be achieved with DIY kit, so rental may be the only way to go. I'm pretty sure that if hot water was used then this, together with the heat generated by the process, would result in speedy evaporation and thus minimal rust-bloom. In practice it might be necessary to over-winter new steel to rust-off the mill-scale, but this might still be a method worth serious consideration ? Colin ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18526|18502|2008-10-10 12:27:20|J Fisher|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|Water blast surface is similar to dry blast providing you use similar media. I used to work for a Teflon coater who used a wet blast system and a dry blast system. When using aluminum oxide both systems provided similar surface finish, but when they went to glass bead on the wet system to prevent it from eating itself as fast, the surface changed dramatically. The glass beads were rounder and made what looked like puddles of metal, while the aluminum oxide left a very sharp jagged surface. With this in mind, I don't think a water only system would provide the rough surface required for good paint adhesion. My concern with a wet blast would be the rust bloom during the drying. John -------Original Message------- From: Larry Dale Date: 10/10/2008 7:42:46 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water The question I have is will the hydroblasting leave a surface that paint will stick to. Using an abrasive leaves a roughen surface that paint will bond to. sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Martin Demers" wrote: > Hi, > > I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water thinking that someone could > get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so would benefit of a job > being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, Hi Martin - you may not be wrong about this ... Rust can certainly be removed with UHP water-jetting, but some authorities state that mill-scale cannot be removed using water alone (i.e. without added abrasive), yet several firms are claiming in their sales-pitch that this can be done. These are just two that I found with a quick 'Google': http://www.uhpsurfaceprep.co.uk/paint-stripping.php http://www.hydropressure.com/rentals.html So - don't give up on the idea yet - the challenge is how to generate several tens of thousands of PSI and I have serious doubts whether this could be achieved with DIY kit, so rental may be the only way to go. I'm pretty sure that if hot water was used then this, together with the heat generated by the process, would result in speedy evaporation and thus minimal rust-bloom. In practice it might be necessary to over-winter new steel to rust-off the mill-scale, but this might still be a method worth serious consideration ? Colin ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18527|18436|2008-10-10 14:13:13|Aaron Williams|Re: electric motor swain?|Robert Do you have the time to correspond with me directly on you boat project? Aaron --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Robert wrote: From: Robert Subject: [origamiboats] Re: electric motor swain? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 5:21 AM Martin, i have installed two EPod 3000 on my Swain 36. The boat is still under construction. i don 't consider this a cheaper alternative than a diesel drive. my boat of course is not in the water, i.e. the system has not been tested. i will be installing several batteries and a generator. it also involves 4 more holes in the bottom of the boat. any way, i am sure this idea will get shot at from all angles by this group. This is the way i am going. There is a space saving advantage for me inside the boat. Kevin at Re-E-Power is at heck of a nice guy, but if you order expect a year or more to get it all together. Bob Meade, Leesburg FL --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I was reading on the net about some electric motor conversions for > sailboats, those are becoming more popular and all the information for > the conversion is now more easily available. > I was wondering if any Swain boat got one of those conversion or if > someone is considering it. > I have to install an engine in my boat, and before buying a diesel I > was condidering the possibility of going electric. > Is it worthed all the trouble of the installation, is it reliable for > a sailboat that goes to sea, is it as green as some say, those are the > questions I am asking myself? > > > any thoughts ? > > Martin. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18528|18518|2008-10-10 15:47:30|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Running the longitudinals the full length of the hull adds absolutely nothing to the strength of the boat . The extreme conic curve of the hull in the ends makes stringers totally redundant there , and can add distortion if they are welded after the hull is up. Any builder insisting they run the longitudinals the full length of the hull, has his own economic self interest in mind, not yours. Water on deck runs aft , and a big scupper at the aft end of the cockpit coamings will, along with a lifting eye at the LCB will handle any deck water you get . Making more scuppers serves no useful purpose ,and simply makes using the decks for water catchement more difficult. The also may increase maintenace problems. The simpler you can keep things the beter. Another make work effort by the builder. The way I have designed cockpit coamings gives you a great , handy stowage space between the backrest and the coaming, the only safe place to put things down , where they won't get stepped on or kicked ,like binocs, sheet tails etc. Straight coamings with no place in the cockpit to safely put hings down is a sure sign of lack of cruising experience in this particular design. I have deigned the foreward lower shroud chainplate on the cabin side for a good reason. If you fly a staysail and sail the boat as a cutter, then the size of staysail you can fly is greatly increased , adding 3 ft to the foot of the staysail , giving it a lower aspect ration , making the shheting point les critical and giving you a useful size staysail . Altho some may have no intention of flying a staysail , putting the chainplate in the proper position leaves your options open. People who fly this staysail say they not only point much higher with it, but sail a knot faster. It also leaves you one less shroud to duck under. Athwartships the mast is adequately stayed by the aft lower shrouds. The foreward lowers stay the centre of the mast fore and aft. The cabinsides, being steel are far stronger than the shrouds. Thus this does nothing to weaken the rig in any way. Again, don't let anyone with no offshore experience re-design your boat. I put the handrails on the edge of the cabinside for a good reason. On my last boat I found the top corner of the cabinside a bad place for paint chipping, as I had very foolishly put the handrails inboard. I cursed that decision for years , and got it right on my current boat. Of course anyone who hasn't maintained a steel boat over a long period of active use , or anyone who's boats have rarely leave the dock , will be totally naive as to the importance of this . Don't let a naive builder make a maintenace slave out of you. This is steel boatbuilding , not imitation fibreglass building . The priorities are different. A freind had such a naive builkder mak ehis cockpit coamings hollow to imitate a fibreglass boat. There was no access inside the coamings to alow him to paint and maintain it properly. For fibreglas this is not an issue , foir streel it is a major issue . Fibreglas coamings were designed that way for cheap easy construction in fibreglass. He ended up having to cut his coamings off and redo them in steel fashion, at great expense. Again, another naive decision fom someone with no long term steel boat experience. Over nearly 40 years of cruising I have founbd that one good mooring bit in the bow is all I have ever needed. Withthe anchor winch it makes a good level wind. I put the anchor rode on one side and crank , then shift it to the other side and crank som emore. I have found having a mooring bit in the centre to be an advantage withte anchor winch. Any builder who puts two in is inventing a make work project to suck more money out of the owner at his expense, putting his pocket book ahead of that of the owner. Weight in the ends makes a boat more prone to hobby horse going to windward in a big swell , making the boats pitching rythm more in sync with bigger , longer waves. For that reason it is a huge mistake to put a 600 lb fuel tank in the stern of a boat. One builder insists on doing that , and was even so dense as to combine 600 lbs of fuel tank under the cockpit with an 800 lb diesel under the front of the cockpit. The boat sat very low in the stern , so what did he do. Attempt to try it again on his next boat. Maybe he went to church and prayed that it wouldn't float the same way next time, so figured he was safe. Anytime you put a weld on the inside of the hull skin ,it raises a slight ridge on the outside. Alliut takes is about 15 or 20 minutes of grinding to eliminate them and make ahuge improvement in the papear4eance of the boat when painted. They dissapear when yo snadblast , then stand out like a sore thumb when the hull is painted. One builder who told the owner that it didn't mater , ended up with a hull that lets you clearly see all the stringer welds from across the harbour when the angle of the sun is right. He said "It is a steel boat so it should look distorted." I've never seen that builder look at the ass of a pretty girl and say. "Needs a bit of cellulite." The big advantage of the single one piece hatch I've designed is that it lets you seal the boat completely something that is almost impossible with a two part hatch , yet one builder has been quick to vandalise this advantage. I started out using a 1/2 inch by 4 inch flatbar to suppoprt he twin keels . I found it inadequate for stopping the keels from being driven up into the hull when you hit a rock at hull speed. I went to angle webs tied into a heavy angle floor between them . I have also been building a watertank between the keels , which makes them extremely strong. I have passed this info on to other builders who have ignored it, as they put their convenience ahead of the interests of the owner. One boat . who's owner I had advised on this and was ignored ,hit a rock and the end of the keel was driven into the hull knocking him unconscious , and filling the boat with several feet of water , before he woke up. > There have been several common screwups on my boats that some > builders been repeating a lot. > Some have extended the rudder post a foot or more above the bulwark. > This completely screws up the option of inside steering by trimtab , > or the extremely simple , well proven, bullet proof self steering I've > designed for my boats. > When you weld the decks to the hull, the weld shrinkage pulls the > decks onto the hull. When you weld 1/8th plate to 3/16th with 1/8th > 7024, then try to break the weld , it always breaks on the 1/8th inch > plate, well outside the weld . Keep this in mind when a welder tries > to make your project into a make work effort for himself , putting > his income ahead of your interests. Boats that are fully welded on > both sides , with a full weld under the decks , tend to oilcan under > the decks. I've seen this on several of my 36 footers when the sun is > at the right angle, built by someone who is bent on turning the > project into a make work project for themselves , and trying to > maximise the number of hours they get out of the job. With 1/8th > 7024 on top, there is absolutely no benefit in welding the decks on > both sides. > This is particularly true of the bottom of the anchor well , which if > welded both sides , will alaways oil can badly. > Some have insisted on only two pintles on the trimtab, which makes it > so flimsey that six year old can easily pull the works out by hand. > The third pintle makes it bullet proof. > When a guy building a 36 wanted his stern tube and aperature put in > and asked me how many hours it takes I said about three hours. He > asked another guy, who has built a lot of my boats , and altho he > charges $5 less an hour than me ,usually takes more than twice as long > as me to do any given job, and he said about 8 hours. He then told > the fabricating shop to go ahead. The shop ended up taking 35 hours , > at an hourly rate the same as I was charging, and the result was an > abortion. > It is a mistake to assume that because someone quotes an hourly rate > that is less, that the job will cost less, when the person giving the > quote has a habit of taking twice as many hours or more to get the job > done, and does whatever he can to maximise the number of hours he > gets out of the job. This is sometimes the result of the fabricator > having absolutely no cruising experience and wasting a lot of time on > things that don't matter, and ignoring things that do.Offshore > cruising experience can make a huge difference. Don't let a non > cruising amateur with no cruising experience redesign a well proven boat. > Sandblasters always insist on blasting the whole boat to white metal > even where the primer is good and will cause no problem, in order to > maximise the cash they get out of the job. You have to keep a close > eye on what they are doing , or get a much higher bill than was > called for . Steel fabricators sometimes do this too. > | 18529|18518|2008-10-10 16:03:02|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Builders who leave the central main water tank out , wasting an extremely usefull space for tankage , leave the tankage to be put elsewhere,higher up in the boat, taking away valuable storage space , always at a premium on a boat, while eliminating the huge structural advantage it gives to the support of the keels. Recessed port, while pretty, are another "make work at the owners expense" scheme buy the builder. I always leave a gap in the lifelines betwen the front end of the wheelhouse and the shrouds, as it makes launching and retrieving a dingy far easier and quicker than lifting it over the lifelines, yet some builders seem to make apoint of puting a stanchion and a cleat in this place to make sliding as dinghy thru it impssible. Another case of inexperiennce screwing things up out of sheer ignorance. Some build the forehatch with a curve in it , meaning the hatch has to be fully welded on one side instead of simply bent up. The difference in aesthetics is unoticeable. One builder, who has built dozens of my boats, built a 26 with the twin keels pushed out to a foot wide , effectively making a couple of drogues out of them, , because that made it more convenient for him to work on them. While the owner was disappointed with the performance the builder couldn't care less. Tough shit, he had his money. Be careful who you hire. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Running the longitudinals the full length of the hull adds absolutely > nothing to the strength of the boat . The extreme conic curve of the > hull in the ends makes stringers totally redundant there , and can add > distortion if they are welded after the hull is up. Any builder > insisting they run the longitudinals the full length of the hull, has > his own economic self interest in mind, not yours. > Water on deck runs aft , and a big scupper at the aft end of the > cockpit coamings will, along with a lifting eye at the LCB will > handle any deck water you get . Making more scuppers serves no useful > purpose ,and simply makes using the decks for water catchement more > difficult. The also may increase maintenace problems. The simpler you > can keep things the beter. Another make work effort by the builder. > The way I have designed cockpit coamings gives you a great , handy > stowage space between the backrest and the coaming, the only safe > place to put things down , where they won't get stepped on or kicked > ,like binocs, sheet tails etc. Straight coamings with no place in the > cockpit to safely put hings down is a sure sign of lack of cruising > experience in this particular design. > I have deigned the foreward lower shroud chainplate on the cabin side > for a good reason. If you fly a staysail and sail the boat as a > cutter, then the size of staysail you can fly is greatly increased , > adding 3 ft to the foot of the staysail , giving it a lower aspect > ration , making the shheting point les critical and giving you a > useful size staysail . Altho some may have no intention of flying a > staysail , putting the chainplate in the proper position leaves your > options open. People who fly this staysail say they not only point > much higher with it, but sail a knot faster. > It also leaves you one less shroud to duck under. Athwartships the > mast is adequately stayed by the aft lower shrouds. The foreward > lowers stay the centre of the mast fore and aft. The cabinsides, being > steel are far stronger than the shrouds. Thus this does nothing to > weaken the rig in any way. Again, don't let anyone with no offshore > experience re-design your boat. > I put the handrails on the edge of the cabinside for a good reason. On > my last boat I found the top corner of the cabinside a bad place for > paint chipping, as I had very foolishly put the handrails inboard. I > cursed that decision for years , and got it right on my current boat. > Of course anyone who hasn't maintained a steel boat over a long > period of active use , or anyone who's boats have rarely leave the > dock , will be totally naive as to the importance of this . > Don't let a naive builder make a maintenace slave out of you. This > is steel boatbuilding , not imitation fibreglass building . The > priorities are different. > A freind had such a naive builkder mak ehis cockpit coamings hollow > to imitate a fibreglass boat. There was no access inside the coamings > to alow him to paint and maintain it properly. For fibreglas this is > not an issue , foir streel it is a major issue . Fibreglas coamings > were designed that way for cheap easy construction in fibreglass. > He ended up having to cut his coamings off and redo them in steel > fashion, at great expense. Again, another naive decision fom someone > with no long term steel boat experience. > Over nearly 40 years of cruising I have founbd that one good mooring > bit in the bow is all I have ever needed. Withthe anchor winch it > makes a good level wind. I put the anchor rode on one side and crank , > then shift it to the other side and crank som emore. I have found > having a mooring bit in the centre to be an advantage withte anchor > winch. Any builder who puts two in is inventing a make work project > to suck more money out of the owner at his expense, putting his pocket > book ahead of that of the owner. Weight in the ends makes a boat more > prone to hobby horse going to windward in a big swell , making the > boats pitching rythm more in sync with bigger , longer waves. > For that reason it is a huge mistake to put a 600 lb fuel tank in the > stern of a boat. One builder insists on doing that , and was even so > dense as to combine 600 lbs of fuel tank under the cockpit with an > 800 lb diesel under the front of the cockpit. The boat sat very low in > the stern , so what did he do. Attempt to try it again on his next > boat. Maybe he went to church and prayed that it wouldn't float the > same way next time, so figured he was safe. > Anytime you put a weld on the inside of the hull skin ,it raises a > slight ridge on the outside. Alliut takes is about 15 or 20 minutes of > grinding to eliminate them and make ahuge improvement in the > papear4eance of the boat when painted. They dissapear when yo > snadblast , then stand out like a sore thumb when the hull is painted. > One builder who told the owner that it didn't mater , ended up with a > hull that lets you clearly see all the stringer welds from across the > harbour when the angle of the sun is right. He said "It is a steel > boat so it should look distorted." > I've never seen that builder look at the ass of a pretty girl and > say. "Needs a bit of cellulite." > The big advantage of the single one piece hatch I've designed is that > it lets you seal the boat completely something that is almost > impossible with a two part hatch , yet one builder has been quick to > vandalise this advantage. > I started out using a 1/2 inch by 4 inch flatbar to suppoprt he twin > keels . I found it inadequate for stopping the keels from being > driven up into the hull when you hit a rock at hull speed. I went to > angle webs tied into a heavy angle floor between them . I have also > been building a watertank between the keels , which makes them > extremely strong. I have passed this info on to other builders who > have ignored it, as they put their convenience ahead of the interests > of the owner. One boat . who's owner I had advised on this and was > ignored ,hit a rock and the end of the keel was driven into the hull > knocking him unconscious , and filling the boat with several feet of > water , before he woke up. > > > > > > There have been several common screwups on my boats that some > > builders been repeating a lot. > > Some have extended the rudder post a foot or more above the bulwark. > > This completely screws up the option of inside steering by trimtab , > > or the extremely simple , well proven, bullet proof self steering I've > > designed for my boats. > > When you weld the decks to the hull, the weld shrinkage pulls the > > decks onto the hull. When you weld 1/8th plate to 3/16th with 1/8th > > 7024, then try to break the weld , it always breaks on the 1/8th inch > > plate, well outside the weld . Keep this in mind when a welder tries > > to make your project into a make work effort for himself , putting > > his income ahead of your interests. Boats that are fully welded on > > both sides , with a full weld under the decks , tend to oilcan under > > the decks. I've seen this on several of my 36 footers when the sun is > > at the right angle, built by someone who is bent on turning the > > project into a make work project for themselves , and trying to > > maximise the number of hours they get out of the job. With 1/8th > > 7024 on top, there is absolutely no benefit in welding the decks on > > both sides. > > This is particularly true of the bottom of the anchor well , which if > > welded both sides , will alaways oil can badly. > > Some have insisted on only two pintles on the trimtab, which makes it > > so flimsey that six year old can easily pull the works out by hand. > > The third pintle makes it bullet proof. > > When a guy building a 36 wanted his stern tube and aperature put in > > and asked me how many hours it takes I said about three hours. He > > asked another guy, who has built a lot of my boats , and altho he > > charges $5 less an hour than me ,usually takes more than twice as long > > as me to do any given job, and he said about 8 hours. He then told > > the fabricating shop to go ahead. The shop ended up taking 35 hours , > > at an hourly rate the same as I was charging, and the result was an > > abortion. > > It is a mistake to assume that because someone quotes an hourly rate > > that is less, that the job will cost less, when the person giving the > > quote has a habit of taking twice as many hours or more to get the job > > done, and does whatever he can to maximise the number of hours he > > gets out of the job. This is sometimes the result of the fabricator > > having absolutely no cruising experience and wasting a lot of time on > > things that don't matter, and ignoring things that do.Offshore > > cruising experience can make a huge difference. Don't let a non > > cruising amateur with no cruising experience redesign a well proven > boat. > > Sandblasters always insist on blasting the whole boat to white metal > > even where the primer is good and will cause no problem, in order to > > maximise the cash they get out of the job. You have to keep a close > > eye on what they are doing , or get a much higher bill than was > > called for . Steel fabricators sometimes do this too. > > > | 18530|18502|2008-10-10 16:54:08|Doug|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|FYI: This study found that flash rust had little effect on the coating. http://www.chariotrobotics.com/Technical%20Articles.htm Ultra High Pressure (UHP) blasting with an ROV: http://www.chariotrobotics.com/Technical%20Articles.htm My local rental yards do not have 40K psi water jets. :( Doug J Tulsa, OK| 18531|18502|2008-10-10 18:28:09|martin demers|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|John, Did the wet blast system you were using had only water mix with the aluminiumoxide or did the water was also propulse with pressured air? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jfisher@... > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:27:08 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > > Water blast surface is similar to dry blast providing you use similar media. > I used to work for a Teflon coater who used a wet blast system and a dry > blast system. When using aluminum oxide both systems provided similar > surface finish, but when they went to glass bead on the wet system to > prevent it from eating itself as fast, the surface changed dramatically. > The glass beads were rounder and made what looked like puddles of metal, > while the aluminum oxide left a very sharp jagged surface. With this in > mind, I don't think a water only system would provide the rough surface > required for good paint adhesion. > > My concern with a wet blast would be the rust bloom during the drying. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Larry Dale > Date: 10/10/2008 7:42:46 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > The question I have is will the hydroblasting leave a surface that paint > will stick to. Using an abrasive leaves a roughen surface that paint will > bond to. > > sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > Martin Demers" > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water > thinking that someone could >> get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so > would benefit of a job >> being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, > > Hi Martin - you may not be wrong about this ... > > Rust can certainly be removed with UHP water-jetting, but some > authorities state that mill-scale cannot be removed using water alone > (i.e. without added abrasive), yet several firms are claiming in their > sales-pitch that this can be done. > > These are just two that I found with a quick 'Google': > http://www.uhpsurfaceprep.co.uk/paint-stripping.php > http://www.hydropressure.com/rentals.html > > So - don't give up on the idea yet - the challenge is how to generate > several tens of thousands of PSI and I have serious doubts whether > this could be achieved with DIY kit, so rental may be the only way to go. > > I'm pretty sure that if hot water was used then this, together with > the heat generated by the process, would result in speedy evaporation > and thus minimal rust-bloom. In practice it might be necessary > to over-winter new steel to rust-off the mill-scale, but this might > still be a method worth serious consideration ? > > Colin > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > --------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your > favourite sites. Download it now! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18532|18502|2008-10-10 18:33:39|J Fisher|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|Just water with abrasive. If you use high enough pressure you have a abrasive water jet cutter. They will cut through 1" + stainless plate like butter. John -------Original Message------- From: martin demers Date: 10/10/2008 3:28:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water John, Did the wet blast system you were using had only water mix with the aluminiumoxide or did the water was also propulse with pressured air? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jfisher@... > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:27:08 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > > Water blast surface is similar to dry blast providing you use similar media. > I used to work for a Teflon coater who used a wet blast system and a dry > blast system. When using aluminum oxide both systems provided similar > surface finish, but when they went to glass bead on the wet system to > prevent it from eating itself as fast, the surface changed dramatically. > The glass beads were rounder and made what looked like puddles of metal, > while the aluminum oxide left a very sharp jagged surface. With this in > mind, I don't think a water only system would provide the rough surface > required for good paint adhesion. > > My concern with a wet blast would be the rust bloom during the drying. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Larry Dale > Date: 10/10/2008 7:42:46 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > The question I have is will the hydroblasting leave a surface that paint > will stick to. Using an abrasive leaves a roughen surface that paint will > bond to. > > sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > Martin Demers" > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water > thinking that someone could >> get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so > would benefit of a job >> being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, > > Hi Martin - you may not be wrong about this ... > > Rust can certainly be removed with UHP water-jetting, but some > authorities state that mill-scale cannot be removed using water alone > (i.e. without added abrasive), yet several firms are claiming in their > sales-pitch that this can be done. > > These are just two that I found with a quick 'Google': > http://www.uhpsurfaceprep.co.uk/paint-stripping.php > http://www.hydropressure.com/rentals.html > > So - don't give up on the idea yet - the challenge is how to generate > several tens of thousands of PSI and I have serious doubts whether > this could be achieved with DIY kit, so rental may be the only way to go. > > I'm pretty sure that if hot water was used then this, together with > the heat generated by the process, would result in speedy evaporation > and thus minimal rust-bloom. In practice it might be necessary > to over-winter new steel to rust-off the mill-scale, but this might > still be a method worth serious consideration ? > > Colin > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > --------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your > favourite sites. Download it now! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > __________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18533|18502|2008-10-10 18:43:02|martin demers|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|Do you remember what kind or what brand was that machine? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jfisher@... > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:33:51 -0700 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > > Just water with abrasive. If you use high enough pressure you have a > abrasive water jet cutter. They will cut through 1" + stainless plate like > butter. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: martin demers > Date: 10/10/2008 3:28:49 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > > > John, > > Did the wet blast system you were using had only water mix with the > aluminiumoxide or did the water was also propulse with pressured air? > > Martin. > ________________________________ >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: jfisher@... >> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:27:08 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water >> >> >> Water blast surface is similar to dry blast providing you use similar > media. >> I used to work for a Teflon coater who used a wet blast system and a dry >> blast system. When using aluminum oxide both systems provided similar >> surface finish, but when they went to glass bead on the wet system to >> prevent it from eating itself as fast, the surface changed dramatically. >> The glass beads were rounder and made what looked like puddles of metal, >> while the aluminum oxide left a very sharp jagged surface. With this in >> mind, I don't think a water only system would provide the rough surface >> required for good paint adhesion. >> >> My concern with a wet blast would be the rust bloom during the drying. >> >> John >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Larry Dale >> Date: 10/10/2008 7:42:46 AM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water >> >> The question I have is will the hydroblasting leave a surface that paint >> will stick to. Using an abrasive leaves a roughen surface that paint will >> bond to. >> >> sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >> Martin Demers" >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water >> thinking that someone could >>> get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so >> would benefit of a job >>> being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, >> >> Hi Martin - you may not be wrong about this ... >> >> Rust can certainly be removed with UHP water-jetting, but some >> authorities state that mill-scale cannot be removed using water alone >> (i.e. without added abrasive), yet several firms are claiming in their >> sales-pitch that this can be done. >> >> These are just two that I found with a quick 'Google': >> http://www.uhpsurfaceprep.co.uk/paint-stripping.php >> http://www.hydropressure.com/rentals.html >> >> So - don't give up on the idea yet - the challenge is how to generate >> several tens of thousands of PSI and I have serious doubts whether >> this could be achieved with DIY kit, so rental may be the only way to go. >> >> I'm pretty sure that if hot water was used then this, together with >> the heat generated by the process, would result in speedy evaporation >> and thus minimal rust-bloom. In practice it might be necessary >> to over-winter new steel to rust-off the mill-scale, but this might >> still be a method worth serious consideration ? >> >> Colin >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your >> favourite sites. Download it now! >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18534|18502|2008-10-10 19:02:29|J Fisher|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|It was custom built to our specifications. John -------Original Message------- From: martin demers Date: 10/10/2008 3:43:06 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water Do you remember what kind or what brand was that machine? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jfisher@... > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:33:51 -0700 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > > Just water with abrasive. If you use high enough pressure you have a > abrasive water jet cutter. They will cut through 1" + stainless plate like > butter. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: martin demers > Date: 10/10/2008 3:28:49 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water > > > > John, > > Did the wet blast system you were using had only water mix with the > aluminiumoxide or did the water was also propulse with pressured air? > > Martin. > ________________________________ >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> From: jfisher@... >> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:27:08 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water >> >> >> Water blast surface is similar to dry blast providing you use similar > media. >> I used to work for a Teflon coater who used a wet blast system and a dry >> blast system. When using aluminum oxide both systems provided similar >> surface finish, but when they went to glass bead on the wet system to >> prevent it from eating itself as fast, the surface changed dramatically. >> The glass beads were rounder and made what looked like puddles of metal, >> while the aluminum oxide left a very sharp jagged surface. With this in >> mind, I don't think a water only system would provide the rough surface >> required for good paint adhesion. >> >> My concern with a wet blast would be the rust bloom during the drying. >> >> John >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Larry Dale >> Date: 10/10/2008 7:42:46 AM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting with sand and water >> >> The question I have is will the hydroblasting leave a surface that paint >> will stick to. Using an abrasive leaves a roughen surface that paint will >> bond to. >> >> sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >> Martin Demers" >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I started a post a few months ago about sanblasting with water >> thinking that someone could >>> get enough water pressure to remove rust over steel and doing so >> would benefit of a job >>> being done without any dust. I was wrong about that idea, >> >> Hi Martin - you may not be wrong about this ... >> >> Rust can certainly be removed with UHP water-jetting, but some >> authorities state that mill-scale cannot be removed using water alone >> (i.e. without added abrasive), yet several firms are claiming in their >> sales-pitch that this can be done. >> >> These are just two that I found with a quick 'Google': >> http://www.uhpsurfaceprep.co.uk/paint-stripping.php >> http://www.hydropressure.com/rentals.html >> >> So - don't give up on the idea yet - the challenge is how to generate >> several tens of thousands of PSI and I have serious doubts whether >> this could be achieved with DIY kit, so rental may be the only way to go. >> >> I'm pretty sure that if hot water was used then this, together with >> the heat generated by the process, would result in speedy evaporation >> and thus minimal rust-bloom. In practice it might be necessary >> to over-winter new steel to rust-off the mill-scale, but this might >> still be a method worth serious consideration ? >> >> Colin >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your >> favourite sites. Download it now! >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > __________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18535|18502|2008-10-10 19:17:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:32:46AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > Rust can certainly be removed with UHP water-jetting, but some > authorities state that mill-scale cannot be removed using water alone > (i.e. without added abrasive), yet several firms are claiming in their > sales-pitch that this can be done. > > These are just two that I found with a quick 'Google': > http://www.uhpsurfaceprep.co.uk/paint-stripping.php > http://www.hydropressure.com/rentals.html > > So - don't give up on the idea yet - the challenge is how to generate > several tens of thousands of PSI and I have serious doubts whether > this could be achieved with DIY kit, so rental may be the only way to go. When I was driving around New York a year or so ago, I saw these huge trucks - about the size and shape of a garbage truck, or maybe ~10% bigger - that the city was using to blast off the steelwork along the roads. There was a sign on them (I don't recall the wording at all) which explained that they used soda as the blasting agent and that there was no dust generated by the process. I'm assuming that it was something like a hugely powerful vaccuum cleaner combined with a blast stream directed so that the media and the rust got bounced into the intake. Pretty impressive gadget, but then NYC doesn't do thing half-way. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18536|18536|2008-10-10 21:43:58|Martin Demers|centerboard swing keel Swain|Hi, looking at sailboat pictures and specifications on the web, it came to my mind if any centerboard retractable keel Swain boat had been done before. Some nice and big sailboat are build this way , their owners seems very happy with them and find a lot of advantage to that kind of keel instalation. Would it be possible to install that kind of keel on a swain boat? Pros and cons? Martin.| 18537|18502|2008-10-10 22:06:28|sae140|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Larry Dale wrote: > > The question I have is will the hydroblasting leave a surface that paint will stick to. Using an abrasive leaves a roughen surface that paint will bond to. > Certainly a valid consideration. According to a 'Surface Preparation' document issued by International Protective Coatings, they consider that the hydro-blasting of a previously rusted or lightly corroded surface should leave behind a surface suitable for coating adhesion. They estimate that the roughened profile created by rusting due to weathering will be within the range 50-100 microns, which is broadly similar to that of copper slag (75-100), coarse sand (70), and iron shot (90). Colin| 18538|18502|2008-10-10 23:13:58|pynrc@aol.com|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|The system being discussed in this thread is termed wet blasting. Usually the blast media is propelled by air using a normal pot system, and water is added at the very end at the nozzle. The advantage is much less dust. You can do a very quick dry blast afterwards to remove any rust bloom caused by the wet blast. I would not blast with sand, as you are at risk of silicosis, a nasty lung disease. There are plenty of cheap alternatives such as granulated copper slag, garnet ilmenite etc. Regards, Richard. ************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18539|18536|2008-10-11 05:22:25|James|Re: centerboard swing keel Swain|bilge keels would be better , like on my Westerly . jim On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 2:43 AM, Martin Demers wrote: > > > > Hi, > > looking at sailboat pictures and specifications on the web, it came to my > mind if any > centerboard retractable keel Swain boat had been done before. Some nice and > big sailboat > are build this way , their owners seems very happy with them and find a lot > of advantage to > that kind of keel instalation. > Would it be possible to install that kind of keel on a swain boat? > Pros and cons? > > Martin. > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18540|18536|2008-10-11 05:58:29|martin demers|Re: centerboard swing keel Swain|Jim, Do you mean the common twin keels as on many Swain's boats. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jimmiestan@... > Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:22:23 +0100 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] centerboard swing keel Swain > > > bilge keels would be better , like on my Westerly . > jim > > On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 2:43 AM, Martin Demers wrote: > >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> looking at sailboat pictures and specifications on the web, it came to my >> mind if any >> centerboard retractable keel Swain boat had been done before. Some nice and >> big sailboat >> are build this way , their owners seems very happy with them and find a lot >> of advantage to >> that kind of keel instalation. >> Would it be possible to install that kind of keel on a swain boat? >> Pros and cons? >> >> Martin. >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18541|18536|2008-10-11 07:32:46|James|Re: centerboard swing keel Swain|yes , sorry , not bilge keels are they ? i really like the downwind habits of my w22 , and use the old volvo iron topsail for upwind help, and as you know , she has "triple " keels . I was in a severe blow - f7+ , gusting 8/9 , on the swin flats ,and tucked in behind a sandbar as the tide went down we saw the back of the 8/9 bits -- radio northsea`s vessel dragged that night it was so gusty. Don`t think even a southerly swing keel could take the slop and hammer we suffered ! that was 14 yrs ago or so, and diadem is still sweet and dry . jim On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 10:58 AM, martin demers wrote: > > > Jim, > > Do you mean the common twin keels as on many Swain's boats. > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: jimmiestan@... > > Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:22:23 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] centerboard swing keel Swain > > > > > > bilge keels would be better , like on my Westerly . > > jim > > > > On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 2:43 AM, Martin Demers wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> looking at sailboat pictures and specifications on the web, it came to > my > >> mind if any > >> centerboard retractable keel Swain boat had been done before. Some nice > and > >> big sailboat > >> are build this way , their owners seems very happy with them and find a > lot > >> of advantage to > >> that kind of keel instalation. > >> Would it be possible to install that kind of keel on a swain boat? > >> Pros and cons? > >> > >> Martin. > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18542|18536|2008-10-11 13:42:22|Carl Anderson|Re: centerboard swing keel Swain|Martin, I think that DOVE III has a centerboard. You would need to talk to Winston or Evan about that to be sure. But I remember that there was some modification to make it very shallow draft for the NW passage that Winston did with the boat. Must have worked out great as Winston sailed from Nanaimo across the Gulf of Alaska and through the Aleutians to get up north. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Martin Demers wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > looking at sailboat pictures and specifications on the web, it came to > my mind if any > centerboard retractable keel Swain boat had been done before. Some nice > and big sailboat > are build this way , their owners seems very happy with them and find a > lot of advantage to > that kind of keel instalation. > Would it be possible to install that kind of keel on a swain boat? > Pros and cons? > > Martin. > > | 18543|18502|2008-10-11 17:33:24|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting with sand and water|That flash rust has little effect on the coating was Joe's experience . Most epoxies are very tolerant of flash rust. If one was concerned , howvever, one could do a quick dry blast after the wet blast. That would minimise the amount of dust in the job. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > > FYI: This study found that flash rust had little effect on the coating. > http://www.chariotrobotics.com/Technical%20Articles.htm > > Ultra High Pressure (UHP) blasting with an ROV: > http://www.chariotrobotics.com/Technical%20Articles.htm > > My local rental yards do not have 40K psi water jets. :( > > Doug J > Tulsa, OK > | 18544|18536|2008-10-11 17:42:00|brentswain38|Re: centerboard swing keel Swain|Winston was considering twin keels for Dove 111, but I talked him out of it. I prefer twin keels , but for the NW pasage , there is absolutley no way you could build twin keels strong enough to resist the presure of miles of ice with a strong wind over it. If you were trapped in ice, the keels would simply be pushed together. Winston found the banging of the centreboard in the trunk to be so annoying that he didn't use the board much, and found it largely a waste of time. The difference in draft between twin keels and the centreline on a 36 is roughly a foot, not worth the trouble of a centreboard, altho it could be done, with a loss of stiffness, and interior space. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Martin, > > I think that DOVE III has a centerboard. > You would need to talk to Winston or Evan about that to be sure. > But I remember that there was some modification to make it very shallow > draft for the NW passage that Winston did with the boat. > Must have worked out great as Winston sailed from Nanaimo across the > Gulf of Alaska and through the Aleutians to get up north. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > Martin Demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > looking at sailboat pictures and specifications on the web, it came to > > my mind if any > > centerboard retractable keel Swain boat had been done before. Some nice > > and big sailboat > > are build this way , their owners seems very happy with them and find a > > lot of advantage to > > that kind of keel instalation. > > Would it be possible to install that kind of keel on a swain boat? > > Pros and cons? > > > > Martin. > > > > > | 18545|18518|2008-10-11 17:50:23|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|When I did a bit of work on Gary Prebbles boat, I wanted to put the one inch stainles pipe nipple in the transom to enable him to use trimtab steering. Unfortunately I didn't have the threaded nipple , so I suggested he make sure it gets done before painting. Unfortunately Evan didn't believe in trimtab steering so didn't want to give him the option. Having absolutely no experience with trimtab steering , niether him nor his guru felt making it an option was good idea , prefering to push very primitive cable steering. I wish I had simply welded in a straight piece of stainless one inch pipe at the right angle. Welding a threaded nipple on a piece of pipe already there would have been far easier, after painting and foaming, than what Gary ended up having to do. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Builders who leave the central main water tank out , wasting an > extremely usefull space for tankage , leave the tankage to be put > elsewhere,higher up in the boat, taking away valuable storage space , > always at a premium on a boat, while eliminating the huge structural > advantage it gives to the support of the keels. > Recessed port, while pretty, are another "make work at the owners > expense" scheme buy the builder. > I always leave a gap in the lifelines betwen the front end of the > wheelhouse and the shrouds, as it makes launching and retrieving a > dingy far easier and quicker than lifting it over the lifelines, yet > some builders seem to make apoint of puting a stanchion and a cleat in > this place to make sliding as dinghy thru it impssible. > Another case of inexperiennce screwing things up out of sheer ignorance. > Some build the forehatch with a curve in it , meaning the hatch has > to be fully welded on one side instead of simply bent up. The > difference in aesthetics is unoticeable. > One builder, who has built dozens of my boats, built a 26 with the > twin keels pushed out to a foot wide , effectively making a couple of > drogues out of them, , because that made it more convenient for him to > work on them. While the owner was disappointed with the performance > the builder couldn't care less. Tough shit, he had his money. > Be careful who you hire. > Brent > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Running the longitudinals the full length of the hull adds absolutely > > nothing to the strength of the boat . The extreme conic curve of the > > hull in the ends makes stringers totally redundant there , and can add > > distortion if they are welded after the hull is up. Any builder > > insisting they run the longitudinals the full length of the hull, has > > his own economic self interest in mind, not yours. > > Water on deck runs aft , and a big scupper at the aft end of the > > cockpit coamings will, along with a lifting eye at the LCB will > > handle any deck water you get . Making more scuppers serves no useful > > purpose ,and simply makes using the decks for water catchement more > > difficult. The also may increase maintenace problems. The simpler you > > can keep things the beter. Another make work effort by the builder. > > The way I have designed cockpit coamings gives you a great , handy > > stowage space between the backrest and the coaming, the only safe > > place to put things down , where they won't get stepped on or kicked > > ,like binocs, sheet tails etc. Straight coamings with no place in the > > cockpit to safely put hings down is a sure sign of lack of cruising > > experience in this particular design. > > I have deigned the foreward lower shroud chainplate on the cabin side > > for a good reason. If you fly a staysail and sail the boat as a > > cutter, then the size of staysail you can fly is greatly increased , > > adding 3 ft to the foot of the staysail , giving it a lower aspect > > ration , making the shheting point les critical and giving you a > > useful size staysail . Altho some may have no intention of flying a > > staysail , putting the chainplate in the proper position leaves your > > options open. People who fly this staysail say they not only point > > much higher with it, but sail a knot faster. > > It also leaves you one less shroud to duck under. Athwartships the > > mast is adequately stayed by the aft lower shrouds. The foreward > > lowers stay the centre of the mast fore and aft. The cabinsides, being > > steel are far stronger than the shrouds. Thus this does nothing to > > weaken the rig in any way. Again, don't let anyone with no offshore > > experience re-design your boat. > > I put the handrails on the edge of the cabinside for a good reason. On > > my last boat I found the top corner of the cabinside a bad place for > > paint chipping, as I had very foolishly put the handrails inboard. I > > cursed that decision for years , and got it right on my current boat. > > Of course anyone who hasn't maintained a steel boat over a long > > period of active use , or anyone who's boats have rarely leave the > > dock , will be totally naive as to the importance of this . > > Don't let a naive builder make a maintenace slave out of you. This > > is steel boatbuilding , not imitation fibreglass building . The > > priorities are different. > > A freind had such a naive builkder mak ehis cockpit coamings hollow > > to imitate a fibreglass boat. There was no access inside the coamings > > to alow him to paint and maintain it properly. For fibreglas this is > > not an issue , foir streel it is a major issue . Fibreglas coamings > > were designed that way for cheap easy construction in fibreglass. > > He ended up having to cut his coamings off and redo them in steel > > fashion, at great expense. Again, another naive decision fom someone > > with no long term steel boat experience. > > Over nearly 40 years of cruising I have founbd that one good mooring > > bit in the bow is all I have ever needed. Withthe anchor winch it > > makes a good level wind. I put the anchor rode on one side and crank , > > then shift it to the other side and crank som emore. I have found > > having a mooring bit in the centre to be an advantage withte anchor > > winch. Any builder who puts two in is inventing a make work project > > to suck more money out of the owner at his expense, putting his pocket > > book ahead of that of the owner. Weight in the ends makes a boat more > > prone to hobby horse going to windward in a big swell , making the > > boats pitching rythm more in sync with bigger , longer waves. > > For that reason it is a huge mistake to put a 600 lb fuel tank in the > > stern of a boat. One builder insists on doing that , and was even so > > dense as to combine 600 lbs of fuel tank under the cockpit with an > > 800 lb diesel under the front of the cockpit. The boat sat very low in > > the stern , so what did he do. Attempt to try it again on his next > > boat. Maybe he went to church and prayed that it wouldn't float the > > same way next time, so figured he was safe. > > Anytime you put a weld on the inside of the hull skin ,it raises a > > slight ridge on the outside. Alliut takes is about 15 or 20 minutes of > > grinding to eliminate them and make ahuge improvement in the > > papear4eance of the boat when painted. They dissapear when yo > > snadblast , then stand out like a sore thumb when the hull is painted. > > One builder who told the owner that it didn't mater , ended up with a > > hull that lets you clearly see all the stringer welds from across the > > harbour when the angle of the sun is right. He said "It is a steel > > boat so it should look distorted." > > I've never seen that builder look at the ass of a pretty girl and > > say. "Needs a bit of cellulite." > > The big advantage of the single one piece hatch I've designed is that > > it lets you seal the boat completely something that is almost > > impossible with a two part hatch , yet one builder has been quick to > > vandalise this advantage. > > I started out using a 1/2 inch by 4 inch flatbar to suppoprt he twin > > keels . I found it inadequate for stopping the keels from being > > driven up into the hull when you hit a rock at hull speed. I went to > > angle webs tied into a heavy angle floor between them . I have also > > been building a watertank between the keels , which makes them > > extremely strong. I have passed this info on to other builders who > > have ignored it, as they put their convenience ahead of the interests > > of the owner. One boat . who's owner I had advised on this and was > > ignored ,hit a rock and the end of the keel was driven into the hull > > knocking him unconscious , and filling the boat with several feet of > > water , before he woke up. > > > > > > > > > > > There have been several common screwups on my boats that some > > > builders been repeating a lot. > > > Some have extended the rudder post a foot or more above the bulwark. > > > This completely screws up the option of inside steering by trimtab , > > > or the extremely simple , well proven, bullet proof self steering I've > > > designed for my boats. > > > When you weld the decks to the hull, the weld shrinkage pulls the > > > decks onto the hull. When you weld 1/8th plate to 3/16th with 1/8th > > > 7024, then try to break the weld , it always breaks on the 1/8th inch > > > plate, well outside the weld . Keep this in mind when a welder tries > > > to make your project into a make work effort for himself , putting > > > his income ahead of your interests. Boats that are fully welded on > > > both sides , with a full weld under the decks , tend to oilcan under > > > the decks. I've seen this on several of my 36 footers when the sun is > > > at the right angle, built by someone who is bent on turning the > > > project into a make work project for themselves , and trying to > > > maximise the number of hours they get out of the job. With 1/8th > > > 7024 on top, there is absolutely no benefit in welding the decks on > > > both sides. > > > This is particularly true of the bottom of the anchor well , which if > > > welded both sides , will alaways oil can badly. > > > Some have insisted on only two pintles on the trimtab, which makes it > > > so flimsey that six year old can easily pull the works out by hand. > > > The third pintle makes it bullet proof. > > > When a guy building a 36 wanted his stern tube and aperature put in > > > and asked me how many hours it takes I said about three hours. He > > > asked another guy, who has built a lot of my boats , and altho he > > > charges $5 less an hour than me ,usually takes more than twice as long > > > as me to do any given job, and he said about 8 hours. He then told > > > the fabricating shop to go ahead. The shop ended up taking 35 hours , > > > at an hourly rate the same as I was charging, and the result was an > > > abortion. > > > It is a mistake to assume that because someone quotes an hourly rate > > > that is less, that the job will cost less, when the person giving the > > > quote has a habit of taking twice as many hours or more to get the job > > > done, and does whatever he can to maximise the number of hours he > > > gets out of the job. This is sometimes the result of the fabricator > > > having absolutely no cruising experience and wasting a lot of time on > > > things that don't matter, and ignoring things that do.Offshore > > > cruising experience can make a huge difference. Don't let a non > > > cruising amateur with no cruising experience redesign a well proven > > boat. > > > Sandblasters always insist on blasting the whole boat to white metal > > > even where the primer is good and will cause no problem, in order to > > > maximise the cash they get out of the job. You have to keep a close > > > eye on what they are doing , or get a much higher bill than was > > > called for . Steel fabricators sometimes do this too. > > > > > > | 18546|18536|2008-10-12 05:49:56|Wally Paine|Re: centerboard swing keel Swain|Lee boards might have been an option. The Thames barges around here (180 to 250 tons) have enormous ones over 12 foot long. They seem to be mounted on an axle which lies on a flush deck. Which most yachts don't have. There may be another way. I have not considered it properly.   Wally Paine  --- On Sat, 11/10/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: centerboard swing keel Swain To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 October, 2008, 10:41 PM Winston was considering twin keels for Dove 111, but I talked him out of it. I prefer twin keels , but for the NW pasage , there is absolutley no way you could build twin keels strong enough to resist the presure of miles of ice with a strong wind over it. If you were trapped in ice, the keels would simply be pushed together. Winston found the banging of the centreboard in the trunk to be so annoying that he didn't use the board much, and found it largely a waste of time. The difference in draft between twin keels and the centreline on a 36 is roughly a foot, not worth the trouble of a centreboard, altho it could be done, with a loss of stiffness, and interior space. Brent -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Martin, > > I think that DOVE III has a centerboard. > You would need to talk to Winston or Evan about that to be sure. > But I remember that there was some modification to make it very shallow > draft for the NW passage that Winston did with the boat. > Must have worked out great as Winston sailed from Nanaimo across the > Gulf of Alaska and through the Aleutians to get up north. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > Martin Demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > looking at sailboat pictures and specifications on the web, it came to > > my mind if any > > centerboard retractable keel Swain boat had been done before. Some nice > > and big sailboat > > are build this way , their owners seems very happy with them and find a > > lot of advantage to > > that kind of keel instalation. > > Would it be possible to install that kind of keel on a swain boat? > > Pros and cons? > > > > Martin. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18547|18547|2008-10-13 03:20:27|marylynbarworth|Freebies 13th October|Dear Members A NEW Page of great Freebies was just added ready for Monday 13th October. Visit Now! If you would like a veritable 'mountain' of free-stuff, take the time to visit the website below. It is packed with great freebies that ALL members can grab! There is even 250 Free Books you can download, straight away! You are sure to find something of interest, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES when you arrive at the site and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces...but its worth the work!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies! PS: When you have collected a few freebies for yourself, be nice and pass this email message forward to all your family and friends. Its very satisfying helping others and everyone loves something for nothing!| 18548|18536|2008-10-13 12:15:03|sae140|Re: centerboard swing keel Swain|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > Lee boards might have been an option. The Thames barges around here (180 to 250 tons) have enormous ones over 12 foot long. They seem to be mounted on an axle which lies on a flush deck. Which most yachts don't have. There may be another way. I have not considered it properly. >  > Wally Paine With a steel hull you would have the luxury of being able to weld a short stub axle onto the outside of the hull - where the deck and topsides meet - should be a plenty strong enough area. And you'd also need to weld a stand-off rail somewhere down towards the LWL, for the lee-board to press against. I think fitting and operating the lee-boards themselves would be straightforward enough, my concern would be how to ballast the hull without the lever advantage of the keel(s). Colin| 18549|18446|2008-10-13 22:48:26|Wesley Cox|Re: what welding machine?|I agree with everything you say here Gary, but I can attest to empirical data. I had an electrician use an inductive ammeter on the supply cord of my Lincoln 225 while I was doing a 200 amp weld and the draw was 49 amps. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what welding machine? Okay guys, a little dose of reality here. I learned to weld on a Lincoln 225 amp AC machine when I was 10. It was hooked to our 60 amp house service, along with the electric stove, electric oven, electric garage door opener, etc. Dad was an electrician, and I was one for about 20 years too. No problem blowing the main breaker with the welder. No problem with the Lincoln 250 DC machine we replaced it with either. Simple facts. A 50 amp breaker will carry 75 amps for five minutes or more. The duty cycle of that AC 225 welder at 225 amps is 10%. That's 1 minute of welding for 9 minutes of rest. At 160 amps it is still about 60%, or 6 minutes in 10. So even if you overload your breaker you will get lots of welding done. The arc voltage is around 30 volts. So the line current will be 30 volts/220 volts = about 30 amps load for a 225 amp weld on a 220 volt line. I have tripped a circuit breaker with the 250 amp Lincoln. That was while TIG welding heavy aluminum with it cranked all the way up and needing to preheat for several minutes. It was also because even though I was an electrician the welder was fed from a 30 amp breaker! We knew it called for a 50, but a 50 is WAY more expensive, and we only welded heavy stuff a couple of times a year. I'd just get a cup of coffee more often. All that said, I'd buy a used industrial DC welder. DC is easier to weld with. You also have a greater choice of rods. If you aren't an expert welder you want all the help you can get. Any welder will essentially cost you nothing, you can always sell it for very close to what you paid. So why screw around, buy it, weld up the boat, sell it. Or do a little welding for others and let it earn it's keep. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Frantz" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what welding machine? > That is nice! My whole house, right now, runs off a 50 amp breaker > which is why I mentioned the thought. I'm not even sure the lateral > could handle 50 amps continously, all of late 1940s tech. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:07 PM, brentswain38 > wrote: > >> Switzerland is all 220 volt. All you ned is a 55 amp or better >> breaker. >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz >> wrote: >>> >>> As has already been pointed out you don't need much in the way of a >>> welder. However you do need to consider where boat is going to be >>> built. If you don't have access to the required AC power the welder >>> won't be of much use. So you need to think about your build site >>> and >>> it's electrical service. >>> >>> I only point this out because it would be almost impossible to run >>> such a welder on the service feeding my house. >>> >>> >>> David A Frantz >>> >>> websterindustro@... >>> Sent from my iPhone. >>> >>> On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Gerrit wrote: >>> >>>> O.k. >>>> >>>> Thank you all for the information.... >>>> >>>> So i will look for such a 225A buzzbox....I think I dont get a >>>> Lincoln >>>> here in switzerland, but I will see what I get. Tomorrow I will >>>> drive >>>> to different dealers here around 20 miles... >>>> >>>> I will try out with scrap during winter with it and then begin in >>>> spring with the hull. Will be about the steelprices here too when to >>>> start... >>>> >>>> >>>> Greetings, >>>> Gerrit >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>>> unsubscribe@... >>>> ! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >> ! Groups Links >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1721 - Release Date: 10/12/2008 12:00 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18550|18536|2008-10-14 09:19:34|ANDREW AIREY|Re: centerboard swing keel Swain|You don't actually need a stub axle.On Humber keels the leeboards are suspended from chains.When it comes to ballasting however you would have to consider the hull shape carefully.Flat bottomed Thames barges had the considerable competitive advantage that they did not need to be ballasted when light and drew unladen about 2'6",which is why they displaced most of the older round bottomed coasters - being operable with only 2 crew helped as well. Beam was about 20ft.However there is a school of thought that small barge yachts are a bit of a dodgy proposition,being somewhat tender. Best book to get on the subject is Frank Carr's 'Sailing Barges' - 1989 edition is probably the most comprehensive cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18551|18446|2008-10-14 21:11:54|Gary H. Lucas|Re: what welding machine?|Wesley, Right, and what I am saying is that even a 30 amp circuit breaker would carry that for a couple of minutes without problem, about the same as the duty cycle for that welder. At worse, you would need to work for shorter periods of time, but you could get the job done. If you were doing this for pay you'd spend for the bigger service, AND a better welder, but that isn't the issue here. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wesley Cox" To: Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what welding machine? >I agree with everything you say here Gary, but I can attest to empirical >data. I had an electrician use an inductive ammeter on the supply cord of >my Lincoln 225 while I was doing a 200 amp weld and the draw was 49 amps. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 6:50 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what welding machine? > > > Okay guys, a little dose of reality here. I learned to weld on a Lincoln > 225 amp AC machine when I was 10. It was hooked to our 60 amp house > service, along with the electric stove, electric oven, electric garage > door > opener, etc. Dad was an electrician, and I was one for about 20 years > too. > No problem blowing the main breaker with the welder. No problem with the > Lincoln 250 DC machine we replaced it with either. > > Simple facts. A 50 amp breaker will carry 75 amps for five minutes or > more. > The duty cycle of that AC 225 welder at 225 amps is 10%. That's 1 minute > of welding for 9 minutes of rest. At 160 amps it is still about 60%, or 6 > minutes in 10. So even if you overload your breaker you will get lots of > welding done. The arc voltage is around 30 volts. So the line current > will > be 30 volts/220 volts = about 30 amps load for a 225 amp weld on a 220 > volt > line. > > I have tripped a circuit breaker with the 250 amp Lincoln. That was while > TIG welding heavy aluminum with it cranked all the way up and needing to > preheat for several minutes. It was also because even though I was an > electrician the welder was fed from a 30 amp breaker! We knew it called > for > a 50, but a 50 is WAY more expensive, and we only welded heavy stuff a > couple of times a year. I'd just get a cup of coffee more often. > > All that said, I'd buy a used industrial DC welder. DC is easier to weld > with. You also have a greater choice of rods. If you aren't an expert > welder you want all the help you can get. Any welder will essentially > cost > you nothing, you can always sell it for very close to what you paid. So > why > screw around, buy it, weld up the boat, sell it. Or do a little welding > for > others and let it earn it's keep. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Frantz" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 7:40 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: what welding machine? > > > That is nice! My whole house, right now, runs off a 50 amp breaker > > which is why I mentioned the thought. I'm not even sure the lateral > > could handle 50 amps continously, all of late 1940s tech. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@... > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:07 PM, brentswain38 > > wrote: > > > >> Switzerland is all 220 volt. All you ned is a 55 amp or better > >> breaker. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> As has already been pointed out you don't need much in the way of a > >>> welder. However you do need to consider where boat is going to be > >>> built. If you don't have access to the required AC power the welder > >>> won't be of much use. So you need to think about your build site > >>> and > >>> it's electrical service. > >>> > >>> I only point this out because it would be almost impossible to run > >>> such a welder on the service feeding my house. > >>> > >>> > >>> David A Frantz > >>> > >>> websterindustro@... > >>> Sent from my iPhone. > >>> > >>> On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Gerrit wrote: > >>> > >>>> O.k. > >>>> > >>>> Thank you all for the information.... > >>>> > >>>> So i will look for such a 225A buzzbox....I think I dont get a > >>>> Lincoln > >>>> here in switzerland, but I will see what I get. Tomorrow I will > >>>> drive > >>>> to different dealers here around 20 miles... > >>>> > >>>> I will try out with scrap during winter with it and then begin in > >>>> spring with the hull. Will be about the steelprices here too when to > >>>> start... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Greetings, > >>>> Gerrit > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >>>> unsubscribe@... > >>>> ! Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1721 - Release Date: > 10/12/2008 12:00 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18552|18552|2008-10-14 22:32:33|jhlean|Looking for ideal 30' to 35' yacht plans|I currently own a self built steel tahiti, and want something a little lighter (about half) and so am selling her. Her current auxilliary power is by electric motor, for which she is just too heavy (10 tons), so will take out the electric and use in the next boat, replace it with a diesel engine and sell it. I am attracted to origami construction and particularly to aluminium, though would need to cost it versus steel. At this stage I need to look at some possible plans. Can anyone suggest something? Requirements are for go anywhere safe cruising, 4 to 6 tons displacement, around 30 to 35' length, with decent live-aboard space. I have heard of a Brent Swain design "easy street" which is 31' but can't seem to find much on it. Of course I'll want to look at a number of alternatives. Any help appreciated. I'll be building the boat in New Zealand. Cheers, John.| 18553|18552|2008-10-15 04:50:28|Paul Wilson|Re: Looking for ideal 30' to 35' yacht plans|Hi John, I highly recommend Brent's 36 footer. It's a little bigger than you ask for but it sails really well. The 31 footer is also an option. I would buy Brent's book first and take it from there. Details on how to get the book are on the website as well as lots of pictures of the different boats. I built one in Canada and have it on the hard in New Plymouth now. Where are you located in NZ? Cheers, Paul I currently own a self built steel tahiti, and want something a little lighter (about half) and so am selling her. Her current auxilliary power is by electric motor, for which she is just too heavy (10 tons), so will take out the electric and use in the next boat, replace it with a diesel engine and sell it. I am attracted to origami construction and particularly to aluminium, though would need to cost it versus steel. At this stage I need to look at some possible plans. Can anyone suggest something? Requirements are for go anywhere safe cruising, 4 to 6 tons displacement, around 30 to 35' length, with decent live-aboard space. I have heard of a Brent Swain design "easy street" which is 31' but can't seem to find much on it. Of course I'll want to look at a number of alternatives. Any help appreciated. I'll be building the boat in New Zealand. Cheers, John. M [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18554|18554|2008-10-15 11:04:05|Martin Demers|home hardwar boat paint|hi, In some previous post there was an allusion made about Home Hardwar boat paint. I went to their web site to find it and was not able to do so. I am interested to learn more about it specially because it is suppose to be more affordable. Can someone who knows that product direct me to a more precise identification. Thanks, Martin.| 18555|18536|2008-10-15 12:38:31|Wally Paine|Re: centerboard swing keel Swain|I've both arrangements but you need a flush deck in both cases. We have several berthed in our creek though I've yet to sail on one.   Wally Paine  --- On Tue, 14/10/08, ANDREW AIREY wrote: From: ANDREW AIREY Subject: [origamiboats] Re: centerboard swing keel Swain To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 14 October, 2008, 2:13 PM You don't actually need a stub axle.On Humber keels the leeboards are suspended from chains.When it comes to ballasting however you would have to consider the hull shape carefully.Flat bottomed Thames barges had the considerable competitive advantage that they did not need to be ballasted when light and drew unladen about 2'6",which is why they displaced most of the older round bottomed coasters - being operable with only 2 crew helped as well. Beam was about 20ft.However there is a school of thought that small barge yachts are a bit of a dodgy proposition, being somewhat tender. Best book to get on the subject is Frank Carr's 'Sailing Barges' - 1989 edition is probably the most comprehensive cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18556|18552|2008-10-15 13:49:08|Shane Duncan|Re: Looking for ideal 30' to 35' yacht plans|Hi John I'm a kiwi building a Brent Swain 31 in Perth was originally thinking of building in aluminum but have gone for a 4mm steel hull with a 4mm aluminum pilot house getting the pilot house made at the moment just about completed the hull and deck will come in around 5.3 tons happy to chat have some pics under http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/browse/b04f cheers shane       ----- Original Message ---- From: jhlean To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:32:30 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Looking for ideal 30' to 35' yacht plans I currently own a self built steel tahiti, and want something a little lighter (about half) and so am selling her.  Her current auxilliary power is by electric motor, for which she is just too heavy (10 tons), so will take out the electric and use in the next boat, replace it with a diesel engine and sell it.   I am attracted to origami construction and particularly to aluminium, though would need to cost it versus steel..    At this stage I need to look at some possible plans.  Can anyone suggest something?  Requirements are for go anywhere safe cruising, 4 to 6 tons displacement, around 30 to 35' length, with decent live-aboard space.  I have heard of a Brent Swain design "easy street" which is 31' but can't seem to find much on it.  Of course I'll want to look at a number of alternatives.  Any help appreciated. I'll be building the boat in New Zealand. Cheers, John. ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18557|18557|2008-10-15 14:27:37|Gerrit|Sailing Performance Twin Keel vs. Finkeel BS 36|Hi I know that some people maybe dont like this discussion, but I would like to know how your boat is sailing. I mean seaworthness included, speed in different wind conditions up- and downwind and your thinkings about the different keels you SAILED ALREADY YOURSELF! No theoretics, please. Only the results are counting for me.... Thanks, Gerrit| 18558|18518|2008-10-15 14:50:52|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Going udersized on the centre of the winch dum is another screwup I've seen lately . 2 inch sch 40 is mimnimum and with a heavy load on a foulded anchor in a swell, one should pull the end of the rode up from in end of the drum to avoid bending the centre of the drum. Another example of no experience. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > When I did a bit of work on Gary Prebbles boat, I wanted to put the > one inch stainles pipe nipple in the transom to enable him to use > trimtab steering. Unfortunately I didn't have the threaded nipple , so > I suggested he make sure it gets done before painting. Unfortunately > Evan didn't believe in trimtab steering so didn't want to give him the > option. Having absolutely no experience with trimtab steering , > niether him nor his guru felt making it an option was good idea , > prefering to push very primitive cable steering. > I wish I had simply welded in a straight piece of stainless one inch > pipe at the right angle. Welding a threaded nipple on a piece of pipe > already there would have been far easier, after painting and foaming, > than what Gary ended up having to do. > Brent > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Builders who leave the central main water tank out , wasting an > > extremely usefull space for tankage , leave the tankage to be put > > elsewhere,higher up in the boat, taking away valuable storage space , > > always at a premium on a boat, while eliminating the huge structural > > advantage it gives to the support of the keels. > > Recessed port, while pretty, are another "make work at the owners > > expense" scheme buy the builder. > > I always leave a gap in the lifelines betwen the front end of the > > wheelhouse and the shrouds, as it makes launching and retrieving a > > dingy far easier and quicker than lifting it over the lifelines, yet > > some builders seem to make apoint of puting a stanchion and a cleat in > > this place to make sliding as dinghy thru it impssible. > > Another case of inexperiennce screwing things up out of sheer > ignorance. > > Some build the forehatch with a curve in it , meaning the hatch has > > to be fully welded on one side instead of simply bent up. The > > difference in aesthetics is unoticeable. > > One builder, who has built dozens of my boats, built a 26 with the > > twin keels pushed out to a foot wide , effectively making a couple of > > drogues out of them, , because that made it more convenient for him to > > work on them. While the owner was disappointed with the performance > > the builder couldn't care less. Tough shit, he had his money. > > Be careful who you hire. > > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Running the longitudinals the full length of the hull adds absolutely > > > nothing to the strength of the boat . The extreme conic curve of the > > > hull in the ends makes stringers totally redundant there , and can add > > > distortion if they are welded after the hull is up. Any builder > > > insisting they run the longitudinals the full length of the hull, has > > > his own economic self interest in mind, not yours. > > > Water on deck runs aft , and a big scupper at the aft end of the > > > cockpit coamings will, along with a lifting eye at the LCB will > > > handle any deck water you get . Making more scuppers serves no useful > > > purpose ,and simply makes using the decks for water catchement more > > > difficult. The also may increase maintenace problems. The simpler you > > > can keep things the beter. Another make work effort by the builder. > > > The way I have designed cockpit coamings gives you a great , handy > > > stowage space between the backrest and the coaming, the only safe > > > place to put things down , where they won't get stepped on or kicked > > > ,like binocs, sheet tails etc. Straight coamings with no place in the > > > cockpit to safely put hings down is a sure sign of lack of cruising > > > experience in this particular design. > > > I have deigned the foreward lower shroud chainplate on the cabin side > > > for a good reason. If you fly a staysail and sail the boat as a > > > cutter, then the size of staysail you can fly is greatly increased , > > > adding 3 ft to the foot of the staysail , giving it a lower aspect > > > ration , making the shheting point les critical and giving you a > > > useful size staysail . Altho some may have no intention of flying a > > > staysail , putting the chainplate in the proper position leaves your > > > options open. People who fly this staysail say they not only point > > > much higher with it, but sail a knot faster. > > > It also leaves you one less shroud to duck under. Athwartships the > > > mast is adequately stayed by the aft lower shrouds. The foreward > > > lowers stay the centre of the mast fore and aft. The cabinsides, being > > > steel are far stronger than the shrouds. Thus this does nothing to > > > weaken the rig in any way. Again, don't let anyone with no offshore > > > experience re-design your boat. > > > I put the handrails on the edge of the cabinside for a good reason. On > > > my last boat I found the top corner of the cabinside a bad place for > > > paint chipping, as I had very foolishly put the handrails inboard. I > > > cursed that decision for years , and got it right on my current boat. > > > Of course anyone who hasn't maintained a steel boat over a long > > > period of active use , or anyone who's boats have rarely leave the > > > dock , will be totally naive as to the importance of this . > > > Don't let a naive builder make a maintenace slave out of you. This > > > is steel boatbuilding , not imitation fibreglass building . The > > > priorities are different. > > > A freind had such a naive builkder mak ehis cockpit coamings hollow > > > to imitate a fibreglass boat. There was no access inside the coamings > > > to alow him to paint and maintain it properly. For fibreglas this is > > > not an issue , foir streel it is a major issue . Fibreglas coamings > > > were designed that way for cheap easy construction in fibreglass. > > > He ended up having to cut his coamings off and redo them in steel > > > fashion, at great expense. Again, another naive decision fom someone > > > with no long term steel boat experience. > > > Over nearly 40 years of cruising I have founbd that one good mooring > > > bit in the bow is all I have ever needed. Withthe anchor winch it > > > makes a good level wind. I put the anchor rode on one side and crank , > > > then shift it to the other side and crank som emore. I have found > > > having a mooring bit in the centre to be an advantage withte anchor > > > winch. Any builder who puts two in is inventing a make work project > > > to suck more money out of the owner at his expense, putting his pocket > > > book ahead of that of the owner. Weight in the ends makes a boat more > > > prone to hobby horse going to windward in a big swell , making the > > > boats pitching rythm more in sync with bigger , longer waves. > > > For that reason it is a huge mistake to put a 600 lb fuel tank in the > > > stern of a boat. One builder insists on doing that , and was even so > > > dense as to combine 600 lbs of fuel tank under the cockpit with an > > > 800 lb diesel under the front of the cockpit. The boat sat very low in > > > the stern , so what did he do. Attempt to try it again on his next > > > boat. Maybe he went to church and prayed that it wouldn't float the > > > same way next time, so figured he was safe. > > > Anytime you put a weld on the inside of the hull skin ,it raises a > > > slight ridge on the outside. Alliut takes is about 15 or 20 minutes of > > > grinding to eliminate them and make ahuge improvement in the > > > papear4eance of the boat when painted. They dissapear when yo > > > snadblast , then stand out like a sore thumb when the hull is painted. > > > One builder who told the owner that it didn't mater , ended up with a > > > hull that lets you clearly see all the stringer welds from across the > > > harbour when the angle of the sun is right. He said "It is a steel > > > boat so it should look distorted." > > > I've never seen that builder look at the ass of a pretty girl and > > > say. "Needs a bit of cellulite." > > > The big advantage of the single one piece hatch I've designed is that > > > it lets you seal the boat completely something that is almost > > > impossible with a two part hatch , yet one builder has been quick to > > > vandalise this advantage. > > > I started out using a 1/2 inch by 4 inch flatbar to suppoprt he twin > > > keels . I found it inadequate for stopping the keels from being > > > driven up into the hull when you hit a rock at hull speed. I went to > > > angle webs tied into a heavy angle floor between them . I have also > > > been building a watertank between the keels , which makes them > > > extremely strong. I have passed this info on to other builders who > > > have ignored it, as they put their convenience ahead of the interests > > > of the owner. One boat . who's owner I had advised on this and was > > > ignored ,hit a rock and the end of the keel was driven into the hull > > > knocking him unconscious , and filling the boat with several feet of > > > water , before he woke up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There have been several common screwups on my boats that some > > > > builders been repeating a lot. > > > > Some have extended the rudder post a foot or more above the > bulwark. > > > > This completely screws up the option of inside steering by trimtab , > > > > or the extremely simple , well proven, bullet proof self > steering I've > > > > designed for my boats. > > > > When you weld the decks to the hull, the weld shrinkage pulls the > > > > decks onto the hull. When you weld 1/8th plate to 3/16th with 1/8th > > > > 7024, then try to break the weld , it always breaks on the 1/8th > inch > > > > plate, well outside the weld . Keep this in mind when a welder > tries > > > > to make your project into a make work effort for himself , putting > > > > his income ahead of your interests. Boats that are fully welded on > > > > both sides , with a full weld under the decks , tend to oilcan under > > > > the decks. I've seen this on several of my 36 footers when the > sun is > > > > at the right angle, built by someone who is bent on turning the > > > > project into a make work project for themselves , and trying to > > > > maximise the number of hours they get out of the job. With 1/8th > > > > 7024 on top, there is absolutely no benefit in welding the decks on > > > > both sides. > > > > This is particularly true of the bottom of the anchor well , > which if > > > > welded both sides , will alaways oil can badly. > > > > Some have insisted on only two pintles on the trimtab, which > makes it > > > > so flimsey that six year old can easily pull the works out by hand. > > > > The third pintle makes it bullet proof. > > > > When a guy building a 36 wanted his stern tube and aperature put in > > > > and asked me how many hours it takes I said about three hours. He > > > > asked another guy, who has built a lot of my boats , and altho he > > > > charges $5 less an hour than me ,usually takes more than twice > as long > > > > as me to do any given job, and he said about 8 hours. He then told > > > > the fabricating shop to go ahead. The shop ended up taking 35 > hours , > > > > at an hourly rate the same as I was charging, and the result was an > > > > abortion. > > > > It is a mistake to assume that because someone quotes an hourly > rate > > > > that is less, that the job will cost less, when the person > giving the > > > > quote has a habit of taking twice as many hours or more to get > the job > > > > done, and does whatever he can to maximise the number of hours he > > > > gets out of the job. This is sometimes the result of the fabricator > > > > having absolutely no cruising experience and wasting a lot of > time on > > > > things that don't matter, and ignoring things that do.Offshore > > > > cruising experience can make a huge difference. Don't let a non > > > > cruising amateur with no cruising experience redesign a well proven > > > boat. > > > > Sandblasters always insist on blasting the whole boat to white > metal > > > > even where the primer is good and will cause no problem, in order to > > > > maximise the cash they get out of the job. You have to keep a close > > > > eye on what they are doing , or get a much higher bill than was > > > > called for . Steel fabricators sometimes do this too. > > > > > > > > > > | 18559|18436|2008-10-15 18:06:07|audeojude|Re: electric motor swain?|I followed his advice and bought (hunted down, actually, > since Coleman *just* stopped carrying them) a Coleman-Stirling "Power > Cooler", and have been impressed as hell with it. It's quiet, it cools > very quickly and efficiently, draws 0.6A on the second setting (there > are five, with the last two being levels of freezing) - and it's doing > this while sitting in my cockpit in daily 80+-degree temps. Oh, and I > got it at the original $300 price that Coleman was selling it for: found > a store in Alabama that still had one in stock. Everybody else is > selling them for $500-700 these days. According to people who own one > (I've done a lot of research around the Web), they're very reliable - > and they run on carbon dioxide rather than Freon. Hard to beat, all > around. I just got the last display model of one of these from an alabama coleman factory outlet for 250.00 plus 20 dollars in shipping. After reading about it hear I did some research and found the manufacture that still sells these units that coleman was rebranding and they go for 600 or 700 dollars for this base model. I'm pretty tickled.. it will fit great on my 23.5 ft boat and my battery bank should be able to run it for about 3 or 4 days along with the rest of my electronics.| 18560|18554|2008-10-15 19:09:10|martin demers|Re: home hardwar boat paint|I finally found the fisherman's paint on the home hardware web site, it is really offered at a cheap price. Is there a lot of people who tried it before? Is it a good quality? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mdemers2005@... > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:04:04 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] home hardwar boat paint > > > > hi, > > In some previous post there was an allusion made about Home Hardwar boat paint. I went to > their web site to find it and was not able to do so. I am interested to learn more about it > specially because it is suppose to be more affordable. Can someone who knows that product > direct me to a more precise identification. > > Thanks, Martin. > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18561|18561|2008-10-16 03:11:45|collettefalkirk|Freebies 16th October|Dear Members A NEW Page of great Freebies was just added ready for Thursday 16th October. Visit Now! If you would like a veritable 'mountain' of free-stuff, take the time to visit the website below. It is packed with great freebies that ALL members can grab! There is even 250 Free Books you can download, straight away! You are sure to find something of interest, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES when you arrive at the site and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces...but its worth the work!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies! PS: When you have collected a few freebies for yourself, be nice and pass this email message forward to all your family and friends. Its very satisfying helping others and everyone loves something for nothing!| 18562|18554|2008-10-16 13:57:45|brentswain38|Re: home hardwar boat paint|I've been using it over epoxy tar for decades , no problem. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > I finally found the fisherman's paint on the home hardware web site, it is really offered at a cheap price. Is there a lot of people who tried it before? Is it a good quality? > > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: mdemers2005@... > > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:04:04 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] home hardwar boat paint > > > > > > > > hi, > > > > In some previous post there was an allusion made about Home Hardwar boat paint. I went to > > their web site to find it and was not able to do so. I am interested to learn more about it > > specially because it is suppose to be more affordable. Can someone who knows that product > > direct me to a more precise identification. > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 18563|18518|2008-10-16 13:59:40|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Sorry for the typos. Computer time was running out fast. No opportunity to edit here. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Going udersized on the centre of the winch dum is another screwup I've > seen lately . 2 inch sch 40 is mimnimum and with a heavy load on a > foulded anchor in a swell, one should pull the end of the rode up from > in end of the drum to avoid bending the centre of the drum. Another > example of no experience. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > When I did a bit of work on Gary Prebbles boat, I wanted to put the > > one inch stainles pipe nipple in the transom to enable him to use > > trimtab steering. Unfortunately I didn't have the threaded nipple , so > > I suggested he make sure it gets done before painting. Unfortunately > > Evan didn't believe in trimtab steering so didn't want to give him the > > option. Having absolutely no experience with trimtab steering , > > niether him nor his guru felt making it an option was good idea , > > prefering to push very primitive cable steering. > > I wish I had simply welded in a straight piece of stainless one inch > > pipe at the right angle. Welding a threaded nipple on a piece of pipe > > already there would have been far easier, after painting and foaming, > > than what Gary ended up having to do. > > Brent > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Builders who leave the central main water tank out , wasting an > > > extremely usefull space for tankage , leave the tankage to be put > > > elsewhere,higher up in the boat, taking away valuable storage space , > > > always at a premium on a boat, while eliminating the huge structural > > > advantage it gives to the support of the keels. > > > Recessed port, while pretty, are another "make work at the owners > > > expense" scheme buy the builder. > > > I always leave a gap in the lifelines betwen the front end of the > > > wheelhouse and the shrouds, as it makes launching and retrieving a > > > dingy far easier and quicker than lifting it over the lifelines, yet > > > some builders seem to make apoint of puting a stanchion and a cleat in > > > this place to make sliding as dinghy thru it impssible. > > > Another case of inexperiennce screwing things up out of sheer > > ignorance. > > > Some build the forehatch with a curve in it , meaning the hatch has > > > to be fully welded on one side instead of simply bent up. The > > > difference in aesthetics is unoticeable. > > > One builder, who has built dozens of my boats, built a 26 with the > > > twin keels pushed out to a foot wide , effectively making a couple of > > > drogues out of them, , because that made it more convenient for him to > > > work on them. While the owner was disappointed with the performance > > > the builder couldn't care less. Tough shit, he had his money. > > > Be careful who you hire. > > > Brent > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Running the longitudinals the full length of the hull adds > absolutely > > > > nothing to the strength of the boat . The extreme conic curve of the > > > > hull in the ends makes stringers totally redundant there , and > can add > > > > distortion if they are welded after the hull is up. Any builder > > > > insisting they run the longitudinals the full length of the > hull, has > > > > his own economic self interest in mind, not yours. > > > > Water on deck runs aft , and a big scupper at the aft end of the > > > > cockpit coamings will, along with a lifting eye at the LCB will > > > > handle any deck water you get . Making more scuppers serves no > useful > > > > purpose ,and simply makes using the decks for water catchement more > > > > difficult. The also may increase maintenace problems. The > simpler you > > > > can keep things the beter. Another make work effort by the builder. > > > > The way I have designed cockpit coamings gives you a great , handy > > > > stowage space between the backrest and the coaming, the only safe > > > > place to put things down , where they won't get stepped on or > kicked > > > > ,like binocs, sheet tails etc. Straight coamings with no place > in the > > > > cockpit to safely put hings down is a sure sign of lack of cruising > > > > experience in this particular design. > > > > I have deigned the foreward lower shroud chainplate on the > cabin side > > > > for a good reason. If you fly a staysail and sail the boat as a > > > > cutter, then the size of staysail you can fly is greatly > increased , > > > > adding 3 ft to the foot of the staysail , giving it a lower aspect > > > > ration , making the shheting point les critical and giving you a > > > > useful size staysail . Altho some may have no intention of flying a > > > > staysail , putting the chainplate in the proper position leaves your > > > > options open. People who fly this staysail say they not only point > > > > much higher with it, but sail a knot faster. > > > > It also leaves you one less shroud to duck under. Athwartships the > > > > mast is adequately stayed by the aft lower shrouds. The foreward > > > > lowers stay the centre of the mast fore and aft. The cabinsides, > being > > > > steel are far stronger than the shrouds. Thus this does nothing to > > > > weaken the rig in any way. Again, don't let anyone with no offshore > > > > experience re-design your boat. > > > > I put the handrails on the edge of the cabinside for a good > reason. On > > > > my last boat I found the top corner of the cabinside a bad place for > > > > paint chipping, as I had very foolishly put the handrails inboard. I > > > > cursed that decision for years , and got it right on my current > boat. > > > > Of course anyone who hasn't maintained a steel boat over a long > > > > period of active use , or anyone who's boats have rarely leave the > > > > dock , will be totally naive as to the importance of this . > > > > Don't let a naive builder make a maintenace slave out of you. This > > > > is steel boatbuilding , not imitation fibreglass building . The > > > > priorities are different. > > > > A freind had such a naive builkder mak ehis cockpit coamings > hollow > > > > to imitate a fibreglass boat. There was no access inside the > coamings > > > > to alow him to paint and maintain it properly. For fibreglas this is > > > > not an issue , foir streel it is a major issue . Fibreglas coamings > > > > were designed that way for cheap easy construction in fibreglass. > > > > He ended up having to cut his coamings off and redo them in steel > > > > fashion, at great expense. Again, another naive decision fom someone > > > > with no long term steel boat experience. > > > > Over nearly 40 years of cruising I have founbd that one good > mooring > > > > bit in the bow is all I have ever needed. Withthe anchor winch it > > > > makes a good level wind. I put the anchor rode on one side and > crank , > > > > then shift it to the other side and crank som emore. I have found > > > > having a mooring bit in the centre to be an advantage withte anchor > > > > winch. Any builder who puts two in is inventing a make work project > > > > to suck more money out of the owner at his expense, putting his > pocket > > > > book ahead of that of the owner. Weight in the ends makes a boat > more > > > > prone to hobby horse going to windward in a big swell , making the > > > > boats pitching rythm more in sync with bigger , longer waves. > > > > For that reason it is a huge mistake to put a 600 lb fuel tank > in the > > > > stern of a boat. One builder insists on doing that , and was even so > > > > dense as to combine 600 lbs of fuel tank under the cockpit with an > > > > 800 lb diesel under the front of the cockpit. The boat sat very > low in > > > > the stern , so what did he do. Attempt to try it again on his next > > > > boat. Maybe he went to church and prayed that it wouldn't float the > > > > same way next time, so figured he was safe. > > > > Anytime you put a weld on the inside of the hull skin ,it raises a > > > > slight ridge on the outside. Alliut takes is about 15 or 20 > minutes of > > > > grinding to eliminate them and make ahuge improvement in the > > > > papear4eance of the boat when painted. They dissapear when yo > > > > snadblast , then stand out like a sore thumb when the hull is > painted. > > > > One builder who told the owner that it didn't mater , ended up > with a > > > > hull that lets you clearly see all the stringer welds from > across the > > > > harbour when the angle of the sun is right. He said "It is a steel > > > > boat so it should look distorted." > > > > I've never seen that builder look at the ass of a pretty girl and > > > > say. "Needs a bit of cellulite." > > > > The big advantage of the single one piece hatch I've designed > is that > > > > it lets you seal the boat completely something that is almost > > > > impossible with a two part hatch , yet one builder has been > quick to > > > > vandalise this advantage. > > > > I started out using a 1/2 inch by 4 inch flatbar to suppoprt > he twin > > > > keels . I found it inadequate for stopping the keels from being > > > > driven up into the hull when you hit a rock at hull speed. I went to > > > > angle webs tied into a heavy angle floor between them . I have also > > > > been building a watertank between the keels , which makes them > > > > extremely strong. I have passed this info on to other builders who > > > > have ignored it, as they put their convenience ahead of the > interests > > > > of the owner. One boat . who's owner I had advised on this and was > > > > ignored ,hit a rock and the end of the keel was driven into the hull > > > > knocking him unconscious , and filling the boat with several > feet of > > > > water , before he woke up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There have been several common screwups on my boats that some > > > > > builders been repeating a lot. > > > > > Some have extended the rudder post a foot or more above the > > bulwark. > > > > > This completely screws up the option of inside steering by > trimtab , > > > > > or the extremely simple , well proven, bullet proof self > > steering I've > > > > > designed for my boats. > > > > > When you weld the decks to the hull, the weld shrinkage pulls the > > > > > decks onto the hull. When you weld 1/8th plate to 3/16th with > 1/8th > > > > > 7024, then try to break the weld , it always breaks on the 1/8th > > inch > > > > > plate, well outside the weld . Keep this in mind when a welder > > tries > > > > > to make your project into a make work effort for himself , > putting > > > > > his income ahead of your interests. Boats that are fully > welded on > > > > > both sides , with a full weld under the decks , tend to oilcan > under > > > > > the decks. I've seen this on several of my 36 footers when the > > sun is > > > > > at the right angle, built by someone who is bent on > turning the > > > > > project into a make work project for themselves , and trying to > > > > > maximise the number of hours they get out of the job. With > 1/8th > > > > > 7024 on top, there is absolutely no benefit in welding the > decks on > > > > > both sides. > > > > > This is particularly true of the bottom of the anchor well , > > which if > > > > > welded both sides , will alaways oil can badly. > > > > > Some have insisted on only two pintles on the trimtab, which > > makes it > > > > > so flimsey that six year old can easily pull the works out by > hand. > > > > > The third pintle makes it bullet proof. > > > > > When a guy building a 36 wanted his stern tube and aperature > put in > > > > > and asked me how many hours it takes I said about three hours. He > > > > > asked another guy, who has built a lot of my boats , and altho he > > > > > charges $5 less an hour than me ,usually takes more than twice > > as long > > > > > as me to do any given job, and he said about 8 hours. He then > told > > > > > the fabricating shop to go ahead. The shop ended up taking 35 > > hours , > > > > > at an hourly rate the same as I was charging, and the result > was an > > > > > abortion. > > > > > It is a mistake to assume that because someone quotes an hourly > > rate > > > > > that is less, that the job will cost less, when the person > > giving the > > > > > quote has a habit of taking twice as many hours or more to get > > the job > > > > > done, and does whatever he can to maximise the number of hours he > > > > > gets out of the job. This is sometimes the result of the > fabricator > > > > > having absolutely no cruising experience and wasting a lot of > > time on > > > > > things that don't matter, and ignoring things that do.Offshore > > > > > cruising experience can make a huge difference. Don't let a non > > > > > cruising amateur with no cruising experience redesign a well > proven > > > > boat. > > > > > Sandblasters always insist on blasting the whole boat to white > > metal > > > > > even where the primer is good and will cause no problem, in > order to > > > > > maximise the cash they get out of the job. You have to keep a > close > > > > > eye on what they are doing , or get a much higher bill than was > > > > > called for . Steel fabricators sometimes do this too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18564|18436|2008-10-16 21:30:02|peter_d_wiley|Re: electric motor swain?|Thanks for that link, Ben. I was a contributor to r.c.m for over 10 years until the s/n ratio got too bad and my time became very limited. I picked up one of those Chinese diesels referred to, with 3.5:1 marine box, for $400. I got it for the box and planned on ditching the engine. I may change my mind now, especially as I can easily fabricate a Lovejoy coupling mount system. http://www.utterpower.com has quite a lot of information on these engines and coupling them to generator heads etc as well. This has given me some ideas. What I'm tempted to build/assemble is a 415V 3 phase genset head that can drive a 10HP 3 phase electric motor. Couple that with a good variable frequency drive system (VFD) and you're talking of something interesting and mostly available cheap. 3 phase electrics are cheap, the VFD is off the shelf and one I have mounted on my milling machine can theoretically go from 0.5Hz to 1000 Hz at the twist of a pot. No need for a g/box, just a bearing assy on the prop shaft to deal with the end thrust. I simply don't think that it's as efficient as a mech g/box driving a shaft, though, as you'd need the engine running anyway, and the losses would mount up. PDW > For that 10kW generator, it's less than a gallon an hour at max, and > rather less at normal cruising speeds. Here's a bunch of guys doing some > relevant calculations (the people in rec.crafts.metalworking are a > *very* knowledgeable bunch; when I used to subscribe, ages ago, I found > it very pleasant and educational): > > http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.crafts.metalworking/2006-06/msg03756.html > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18565|18554|2008-10-16 22:50:17|theboilerflue|Re: home hardwar boat paint|The stuuf is called Fisherman's Paint in Courtenay they only have gray, blue and white it's twenty bucks a gallon. it's on my boat which isn't yet in the water so i can atest to it's reliablity but brent says he uses it above the waterline. It's not for below the waterline says on the can. > hi, > > In some previous post there was an allusion made about Home Hardwar boat paint. I went to > their web site to find it and was not able to do so. I am interested to learn more about it > specially because it is suppose to be more affordable. Can someone who knows that product > direct me to a more precise identification. > > > Thanks, Martin. > | 18566|18518|2008-10-17 09:32:38|Claude|Re: Common Screwups|No problem Brent. We can still understand what you ment. I realy like all of those (common screwups) messages. They are very good information to add to your book. Claude --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Sorry for the typos. Computer time was running out fast. No > opportunity to edit here. > Brent | 18567|18554|2008-10-17 14:10:09|brentswain38|Re: home hardwar boat paint|I've seen it in white and green. I have used the white, some with tint in it, for decades. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > The stuuf is called Fisherman's Paint in Courtenay they only have > gray, blue and white it's twenty bucks a gallon. it's on my boat which > isn't yet in the water so i can atest to it's reliablity but brent > says he uses it above the waterline. It's not for below the waterline > says on the can. > > > hi, > > > > In some previous post there was an allusion made about Home Hardwar > boat paint. I went to > > their web site to find it and was not able to do so. I am interested > to learn more about it > > specially because it is suppose to be more affordable. Can someone > who knows that product > > direct me to a more precise identification. > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > | 18568|18518|2008-10-17 14:22:20|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Given the tendency for the trailing edges of the twin keels to be driven up into the boat when they collide with a rock ,and the fact that they are far enough back to be under the pilothouse floor in the 36, putting a 3/16th plate web across them would definitly not be in the way of anything. The top of this web could be T'd with a piece of 1/ 2 inch by 4 inch flatbar , making it extremely strong. If they are not far enough back, then expanding the size of the gussets off the trailing edges of the twin keels may take the load far enough back. I have tried to pass some of these points on to a guy who has built dozens of my boats, who has absolutely no offshore cruising experience, and been totally ignored, until I posted them here, informing his clients. Best check any of changes to the design with the designer, or the consequences are of your own making. Don't blame me for someone elses screwups. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > No problem Brent. We can still understand what you ment. > I realy like all of those (common screwups) messages. > They are very good information to add to your book. > Claude > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Sorry for the typos. Computer time was running out fast. No > > opportunity to edit here. > > Brent > | 18569|18518|2008-10-17 20:09:47|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Another common screwwup is putting a longitudinal stringer along the outside of the centreline, but so close that it makes it impossible to put a big watertank top in without either having to remove the stringer where it would end up inside the tank , or having it inside the tank and impossible to get behind to paint. You could run the sides of the tank down vertically, but this makes a watertrap that won't drain into the bilge sump. Evan Shaler insists on putting this stringer in this position , I assume, to force you to do things his way, using other drier and more vaulable space for tankage. In fact Evan has long insisted on doing almost all of the screwups I've listed here. It seems extremely difficult or impossible to convince him to do things properly, and he often insists on redesigning the boat, based on his almost zero cruising experience. When someone stubbornly insists on redesigning a well proven boat , the product of dozens of boats making many offshore cruises and adding their input to the design , it would seem a good idea to treat him as a last resort when looking for someone to help you build your boat, not a first option. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Given the tendency for the trailing edges of the twin keels to be > driven up into the boat when they collide with a rock ,and the fact > that they are far enough back to be under the pilothouse floor in the > 36, putting a 3/16th plate web across them would definitly not be in > the way of anything. The top of this web could be T'd with a piece of > 1/ 2 inch by 4 inch flatbar , making it extremely strong. > If they are not far enough back, then expanding the size of the > gussets off the trailing edges of the twin keels may take the load > far enough back. > I have tried to pass some of these points on to a guy who has built > dozens of my boats, who has absolutely no offshore cruising > experience, and been totally ignored, until I posted them here, > informing his clients. > Best check any of changes to the design with the designer, or the > consequences are of your own making. Don't blame me for someone elses > screwups. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > > > No problem Brent. We can still understand what you ment. > > I realy like all of those (common screwups) messages. > > They are very good information to add to your book. > > Claude > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Sorry for the typos. Computer time was running out fast. No > > > opportunity to edit here. > > > Brent > > > | 18570|18518|2008-10-18 00:23:54|silascrosby|Re: Common Screwups|Brent, has that actually happened to any boats that you know of ? (i.e. aft upper corner of the keels being forced up into the hulls on impact) I have had some really scary 'high-speed' impacts that have done no damage. Karl on 'Lungta' and I on my boat had a great sail back from Lasqueti Is. today. It blew about 40 knots in False Bay last night but backed off to 15- 20 k by this morning. Broad reach and run at 6 to 7.5 knots from Sister Is to Chrome Is.Immediately changed to NW wind in Baynes Sound ! I think I might modify my wind vane so that the 'sail' is set back from the vertical axis by a foot or two to give more leverage. That's the way Karl's is set up (made by Timo) and maybe yours ?. Mine works fine but it seemed that Karl was a little less inclined to reef down and seemed to be holding as steady a course with more sail up ( he was catching up !) Steve I put the boat on the beach right in front of Mike Taylor's house in Scotty Bay to do the shaft zinc and clean the prop. It is a bit too soft to get at the keel bottoms. Mike uses the launch ramp at the Lasqueti Fishing yard in Scotty Bay.--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Given the tendency for the trailing edges of the twin keels to be > driven up into the boat when they collide with a rock ,and the fact > that they are far enough back to be under the pilothouse floor in the > 36, putting a 3/16th plate web across them would definitly not be in > the way of anything. The top of this web could be T'd with a piece of > 1/ 2 inch by 4 inch flatbar , making it extremely strong. > If they are not far enough back, then expanding the size of the > gussets off the trailing edges of the twin keels may take the load > far enough back. > I have tried to pass some of these points on to a guy who has built > dozens of my boats, who has absolutely no offshore cruising > experience, and been totally ignored, until I posted them here, > informing his clients. > Best check any of changes to the design with the designer, or the > consequences are of your own making. Don't blame me for someone elses > screwups. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > > > No problem Brent. We can still understand what you ment. > > I realy like all of those (common screwups) messages. > > They are very good information to add to your book. > > Claude > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Sorry for the typos. Computer time was running out fast. No > > > opportunity to edit here. > > > Brent > > > | 18571|18518|2008-10-18 06:14:12|Gerrit|Re: Common Screwups|Hi there! Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I think everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone trys to "optimate" his boat.... I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start building my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I would like to change some things on my Swain 36. When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a lot of steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as possible. In the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and pilothouse I would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how I get a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will not be a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. Because I will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom and if ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I think that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up to my needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the pilothouse and the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane in bad conditions at sea.... So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? Greetings, Gerrit planed Swain 36 "Johanna"| 18572|18518|2008-10-18 08:28:47|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Common Screwups|Hi Gerrit The problem with being 6'3" is that you aren't used to ducking - like you are at 6'8".The important thing is to make sure that your work surfaces are at an optimum height.Not doing that really does give you backache cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18573|18436|2008-10-18 08:45:16|ANDREW AIREY|Re: electric motor swain?|Just a thought on electricity storage - what about cells from forktruck batteries.The complete units are usually either 36 or 48 volts and weigh about a ton BUT the ones I've seen can be dissassembld into individual 2 volt cells about 6 or 8inch square and about 2ft deep so could they be reassembled into a size that would fit into the keel.Would need to be waterproofed and properly vented of course cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18574|18518|2008-10-18 13:44:22|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|I was told that the 40 footer Mishar was leaving Quatsino and hit a rock with one keel at hull speed , knocking out the skipper . When he woke up there was a couple of feet of water in the boat. I had told the original owner to put a heavy angle iron floor across the aft ends of the keels , and gussets of the trailing edges to the hull, which I doubt he did. With the huge centreline tank between the aft ends of your keels , there is no risk of that happening to your boat. I have driven my keels a bit deeper into the hull there by hitting rocks , leaving a dish in the hull there. I jacked it out once , but the piece of square tubing I borowed from Mike Taylor has been used for a solar panel mast. Could sure use it again. The only limit on how far back you could set your windvane is the point where it hits the backstay. Go for as much as you can fit. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Brent, has that actually happened to any boats that you know of ? > (i.e. aft upper corner of the keels being forced up into the hulls on > impact) I have had some really scary 'high-speed' impacts that have > done no damage. > Karl on 'Lungta' and I on my boat had a great sail back from Lasqueti > Is. today. It blew about 40 knots in False Bay last night but backed > off to 15- 20 k by this morning. Broad reach and run at 6 to 7.5 knots > from Sister Is to Chrome Is.Immediately changed to NW wind in Baynes > Sound ! > I think I might modify my wind vane so that the 'sail' is set back > from the vertical axis by a foot or two to give more leverage. That's > the way Karl's is set up (made by Timo) and maybe yours ?. Mine works > fine but it seemed that Karl was a little less inclined to reef down > and seemed to be holding as steady a course with more sail up ( he was > catching up !) > Steve > I put the boat on the beach right in front of Mike Taylor's house in > Scotty Bay to do the shaft zinc and clean the prop. It is a bit too > soft to get at the keel bottoms. Mike uses the launch ramp at the > Lasqueti Fishing yard in Scotty Bay.--- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Given the tendency for the trailing edges of the twin keels to be > > driven up into the boat when they collide with a rock ,and the fact > > that they are far enough back to be under the pilothouse floor in the > > 36, putting a 3/16th plate web across them would definitly not be in > > the way of anything. The top of this web could be T'd with a piece of > > 1/ 2 inch by 4 inch flatbar , making it extremely strong. > > If they are not far enough back, then expanding the size of the > > gussets off the trailing edges of the twin keels may take the load > > far enough back. > > I have tried to pass some of these points on to a guy who has built > > dozens of my boats, who has absolutely no offshore cruising > > experience, and been totally ignored, until I posted them here, > > informing his clients. > > Best check any of changes to the design with the designer, or the > > consequences are of your own making. Don't blame me for someone elses > > screwups. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > > > > > No problem Brent. We can still understand what you ment. > > > I realy like all of those (common screwups) messages. > > > They are very good information to add to your book. > > > Claude > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry for the typos. Computer time was running out fast. No > > > > opportunity to edit here. > > > > Brent > > > > > > | 18575|18518|2008-10-18 13:51:57|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin then a flat floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see out of the wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in the rain and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be foolish. It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor space aft. 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 have had no problem getting headroom without having to change the design in any way , except lowering the floor. If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then it would probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > Hi there! > > Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I think > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone trys > to "optimate" his boat.... > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start building > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I would > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a lot of > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as possible. In > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and pilothouse I > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how I get > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will not be > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. Because I > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom and if > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I think > that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up to my > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the pilothouse and > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane in bad > conditions at sea.... > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > Greetings, Gerrit > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > | 18576|18518|2008-10-18 14:06:33|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges of the twin keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single keel will dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with molten lead poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading edge pipe won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long after I told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made the keels lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a rats ass if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have your money by then. Tough shit! If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the wheelhouse , one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch plate gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull to a web accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on the outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the strength of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of the keels inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto the keels with an airtight weld all around, of course. This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end of the keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It could be neccessary on the 31 tho. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin then a flat > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see out of the > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in the rain > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be foolish. > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor space aft. > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 have had no > problem getting headroom without having to change the design in any > way , except lowering the floor. > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then it would > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > > > Hi there! > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I think > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone trys > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start building > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I would > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a lot of > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as possible. In > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and pilothouse I > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how I get > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will not be > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. Because I > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom and if > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I think > > that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up to my > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the pilothouse and > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane in bad > > conditions at sea.... > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > | 18577|18518|2008-10-18 16:23:30|theboilerflue|Re: Common Screwups|Garrit, I'm six foot six and in my boat as it is when i'm standing on the built-in tank in between the keels my head clears the cabin roof stiffeners (which are one inch flat bars) by about two inches. I'm going to try and keep the floor and the ceiling as thin as possible to allow me standing room and hopefully it will work. If i had been building the boat from scratch instead of buying a unfinish project i would have pushed the cabin an inch or two higher but alas it will have to do now. In my world of high altitude one gets used to this kind of thing so unless you're really tall like me you should have no problem. i believe brent built my cabin to plan yo could ask him. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > Hi there! > > Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I think > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone trys > to "optimate" his boat.... > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start building > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I would > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a lot of > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as possible. In > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and pilothouse I > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how I get > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will not be > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. Because I > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom and if > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I think > that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up to my > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the pilothouse and > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane in bad > conditions at sea.... > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > Greetings, Gerrit > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > | 18578|18578|2008-10-18 20:26:06|prairiemaidca|battery power on board|Hi All: I looked at the battery's for the jacks and forklifts where I worked and thought that they could be used for ballast and a large power supply on board. I had a chat with the people who looked after them and soon realized that the charging and maintenance systems for units of that size would not be practical on a 36ft boat. Maybe things have changed in the battery world of late but I doubt it. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 18579|18578|2008-10-18 21:04:47|David Frantz|Re: battery power on board|I would have to think that the maintenace of any flooded lead acid battery at sea would be problematic. The primary problem being that they would seldom be level unless you are stopped in a bay. At the very least the battery would need a venting and capping system designed for such operation. A better bet might be gel cells or similar battery if lead is your friend. The other options revolve around new battery tech. Unfortunately much of that tech is tied up with poorly managed companies or might not be sea water compatible. As to charging circuits well do realize that you don't need 1000 amp quick charges. As to what is possible look at some of the hardware available for home solar electric panels. Many home systems today are 48 volts and charge fine from physically small chargers. Of course you trade off speed with the lower current. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 18, 2008, at 8:26 PM, prairiemaidca wrote: > Hi All: I looked at the battery's for the jacks and forklifts where I > worked and thought that they could be used for ballast and a large > power supply on board. I had a chat with the people who looked after > them and soon realized that the charging and maintenance systems for > units of that size would not be practical on a 36ft boat. Maybe > things > have changed in the battery world of late but I doubt it. Martin > (Prairie Maid) > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18580|18578|2008-10-18 22:52:35|Ben Okopnik|Re: battery power on board|On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 09:04:22PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > I would have to think that the maintenace of any flooded lead acid > battery at sea would be problematic. The primary problem being that > they would seldom be level unless you are stopped in a bay. At the > very least the battery would need a venting and capping system > designed for such operation. I've always used flooded-cell (Trojan golf-cart batteries), and I've never had a problem - even when the boat's spent days and days heeled way over. It is true that gels and AGMs are more efficient than the flooded types, and that I waste some of my produced energy by not using them; however, I find gel cells way too finicky/too sensitive to overcharging for me to trust them while cruising. If someone is using gel cells and their regulator shorts out (i.e., the charging voltage goes above 13.3 or so), all they'll be able to do for their batteries is give them a decent burial at sea. My Trojans take 15+ volts for several hours (during equalization) and have no problems whatsoever. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18581|18578|2008-10-19 02:03:48|Paul Wilson|Re: battery power on board|>>>>I've always used flooded-cell (Trojan golf-cart batteries), and I've never had a problem - even when the boat's spent days and days heeled way over. Me too. I have always used 4 of the Trojan batteries. I got about 7 years out of the first set. There may be better batteries now, but with the golf cart batteries being so good for the buck, I have never thought of changing to anything else. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18582|18578|2008-10-19 02:12:44|Paul Thompson|Re: battery power on board|On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 3:50 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > It is true that gels and AGMs are more efficient than the flooded types, > and that I waste some of my produced energy by not using them; however, > I find gel cells way too finicky/too sensitive to overcharging for me to > trust them while cruising. If someone is using gel cells and their > regulator shorts out (i.e., the charging voltage goes above 13.3 or so), > all they'll be able to do for their batteries is give them a decent > burial at sea. My Trojans take 15+ volts for several hours (during > equalization) and have no problems whatsoever. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * I agree whole heartily with the above. My gel battery experiment ended 11/2 years after in stalling them when my Ample power regulator failed and fried them. Dumping 4 200 amp gel batteries was not the best day of my life as I was cruising in the Caribbean and money was in short supply. Now days I too use Trojan 105's or the local equivalent and am very happy with them. They cost a fraction of the price that I paid for the gel items, and have lasted six years so far. I have six of them and they are never discharged more than 50%. A Victron Energy Phoenix takes care of the charging when I am in port or I run my Honda 2000i generator. This is also backed up by 300 watts of solar cells that take care of all my requirements 90% of the time. Regards, Paul Thompson| 18583|18518|2008-10-19 05:39:19|dejongralph|Re: Common Screwups - leading edges BS31|Brent, Is 2" sch80 good as leading edges for the twin keels of the 31, or not. Thanks Ralph > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single keel will > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with molten lead > poured in behind it. | 18584|18518|2008-10-19 16:13:15|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups - leading edges BS31|Probaly not. I'd go shaft, altho you could drop a shaft inside after assembly, as long as you weld it airtight Brent \ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" wrote: > > Brent, > Is 2" sch80 good as leading edges for the twin keels of the 31, or not. > > Thanks > Ralph > > > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single keel will > > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with molten lead > > poured in behind it. > | 18585|18518|2008-10-19 16:24:38|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an board if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out at low tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off their boat and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the government has made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian waters. I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any boats I have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back aboard any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him to do so, but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients struggle with everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while living in drying anchorages. The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life tied to a dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a total cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes life and death decisions) Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges of the twin > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single keel will > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with molten lead > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading edge pipe > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long after I > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made the keels > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a rats ass > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have your money > by then. Tough shit! > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the wheelhouse , > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch plate > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull to a web > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on the > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the strength > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of the keels > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto the keels > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end of the > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It could be > neccessary on the 31 tho. > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin then a flat > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see out of the > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in the rain > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be foolish. > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor space aft. > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 have had no > > problem getting headroom without having to change the design in any > > way , except lowering the floor. > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then it would > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I think > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone trys > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start building > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I would > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a lot of > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as possible. In > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and pilothouse I > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how I get > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will not be > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. Because I > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom and if > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I think > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up to my > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the pilothouse and > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane in bad > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > | 18586|18518|2008-10-19 16:26:06|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Dropping the tank top would be a better option. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Garrit, I'm six foot six and in my boat as it is when i'm standing on > the built-in tank in between the keels my head clears the cabin roof > stiffeners (which are one inch flat bars) by about two inches. I'm > going to try and keep the floor and the ceiling as thin as possible to > allow me standing room and hopefully it will work. If i had been > building the boat from scratch instead of buying a unfinish project i > would have pushed the cabin an inch or two higher but alas it will > have to do now. In my world of high altitude one gets used to this > kind of thing so unless you're really tall like me you should have no > problem. i believe brent built my cabin to plan yo could ask him. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > > > Hi there! > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I think > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone trys > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start building > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I would > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a lot of > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as possible. In > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and pilothouse I > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how I get > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will not be > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. Because I > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom and if > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I think > > that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up to my > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the pilothouse and > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane in bad > > conditions at sea.... > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > | 18587|18518|2008-10-19 16:28:30|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Another common screwup is running the keel sides up to make the watertank sides, or putting the top on where the keel meets the hull drastically reducing the capacity of the tank , and creating a relatively useless space above it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Dropping the tank top would be a better option. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Garrit, I'm six foot six and in my boat as it is when i'm standing on > > the built-in tank in between the keels my head clears the cabin roof > > stiffeners (which are one inch flat bars) by about two inches. I'm > > going to try and keep the floor and the ceiling as thin as possible to > > allow me standing room and hopefully it will work. If i had been > > building the boat from scratch instead of buying a unfinish project i > > would have pushed the cabin an inch or two higher but alas it will > > have to do now. In my world of high altitude one gets used to this > > kind of thing so unless you're really tall like me you should have no > > problem. i believe brent built my cabin to plan yo could ask him. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I think > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone trys > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start building > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I would > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a lot of > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as possible. In > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and pilothouse I > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how I get > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will not be > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. Because I > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom and if > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I think > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up to my > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the pilothouse and > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane in bad > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > | 18588|18557|2008-10-19 16:34:36|brentswain38|Re: Sailing Performance Twin Keel vs. Finkeel BS 36|Steve on the twin keel 36 Silas Crosby had a race against a sistership with a single keel . Downwind they were more or less matched . Upwind the single keeler had a slight advantage , but not so mutch as to stop Steve from wanting a rematch. I love the twin keels on my 31, the best decision I've made, 24 years and many Pacific crossings ago. Almost all people with my boats who went twin keels wouldn't want anything else and most of those who went for single keels wish they had gone for twin keels. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > Hi > > I know that some people maybe dont like this discussion, but I would > like to know how your boat is sailing. > > I mean seaworthness included, speed in different wind conditions up- > and downwind and your thinkings about the different keels you SAILED > ALREADY YOURSELF! No theoretics, please. Only the results are counting > for me.... > > Thanks, Gerrit > | 18589|18557|2008-10-19 17:14:13|djackson99@aol.com|Lead and Keels|I just got finished melting down another batch of wheel weights today bringing us to a total of 12K pounds of the 30K we need.? So now that my back is killing me I am wondering if it is possible to better place the lead in twin keels so as to take more advantage of the weight and there for reduce the total requirement for lead ballast.? Even saving 4K pounds at this point sounds like a good idea.? What if we build our twin keels only 2 inches wide and put all for the lead in wings at the bottom of the keels.? I'm thinking the wings would extend outward horizontally and they had enough volume to contain all of the lead.? The rest of the keel above the lead would then be used for cooling. I would not want the wings to be very wide, perhaps only 12 inches,? because I'd still want to be able to dry out the hull and I don't want them to need too much steel reinforcement in order to keep them from being damaged.? I'd attach them to the vertical keel with Ells cut from 1 inch plate on 24 inch centers and make the bottom plate of the wing from 1/2" steel.? The Ells would baffle the keels and extend to the tips of the wings to add support. My though is that the lead will not just be concentrated at the lowest point, but the keel will be thiner and the wing will also help to dampen roll. Does that sound logical?? Am I missing something? Thanks Doug J Tulsa, OK www.SubmarineBoat.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18590|18590|2008-10-20 02:59:45|laurafernway|Freebies 20th October|Dear Members A NEW Page of great Freebies was just added ready for Monday 20th October. Visit Now! If you would like a veritable 'mountain' of free-stuff, take the time to visit the website below. It is packed with great freebies that ALL members can grab! There is even 250 Free Books you can download, straight away! You are sure to find something of interest, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES when you arrive at the site and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces...but its worth the work!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies! PS: When you have collected a few freebies for yourself, be nice and pass this email message forward to all your family and friends. Its very satisfying helping others and everyone loves something for nothing!| 18591|18518|2008-10-20 16:15:55|Paul Wilson|Re: Common Screwups|Hi Brent, You make it sound like all of Evan's boats are crap :). I have to say that I had no problems with Evan whatsoever. I never felt any pressure to change anything. The most major change I made, was bounced off you and you said it would be OK. At the time, Evan had built or helped build 9 of your boats. I don't want to be critical, but to be fair, I have to say the plans were quite "sketchy" at the time and had few details. I am sure it is different now, but this was in 1986. I trusted Evan to interpret the plans, since he had the experience in building the boats and had approval by you to build to the plans. He made it clear that he had no cruising experience. If I remember right, I don't think he had actually sailed any boat at the time since his own boat had only just been launched. Be that as it may, I am sure there were no changes to any of the scantlings since the materials were ordered according to your list. Any design changes, like I said, were bounced off you. I did make a few of my own minor decisions since I had a little bit of offshore crewing and local sailing and developed some of my own opinions. While I was building, you dropped by once in awhile and voiced no objections as to what was going on. If you had said you didn't like something, I definitely would have changed it. Has any two homebuilt boats ever been the same? In conclusion, as far as my experience goes, any changes to the plans were my decision and I am to be blamed, not Evan. I am certain I could have learned more if you had built the boat instead of Evan, but I am extremely happy with the result. It has proven itself over and over again and sails great. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:25 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Common Screwups Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an board if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out at low tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off their boat and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the government has made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian waters. I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any boats I have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back aboard any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him to do so, but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients struggle with everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while living in drying anchorages. The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life tied to a dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a total cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes life and death decisions) Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brentswain38" wrote: > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges of the twin > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single keel will > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with molten lead > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading edge pipe > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long after I > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made the keels > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a rats ass > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have your money > by then. Tough shit! > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the wheelhouse , > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch plate > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull to a web > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on the > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the strength > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of the keels > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto the keels > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end of the > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It could be > neccessary on the 31 tho. > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin then a flat > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see out of the > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in the rain > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be foolish. > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor space aft. > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 have had no > > problem getting headroom without having to change the design in any > > way , except lowering the floor. > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then it would > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Gerrit" wrote: > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I think > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone trys > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start building > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I would > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a lot of > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as possible. In > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and pilothouse I > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how I get > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will not be > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. Because I > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom and if > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I think > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up to my > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the pilothouse and > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane in bad > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: 10/19/2008 6:02 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18592|18557|2008-10-20 16:21:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Lead and Keels|Doug, I wouldn't change anything without the designers approval. Keel design is critical to the performance of a yacht. The flow of water over a keel can become turbulent if not done right and greatly increase the drag. Making keels narrower, for example can cause them to "stall" earlier and effect windward performance and steering. Designing a wing keel is very complex. The angle of the wings is critical and probably best done with tank testing due to the flow lines around the hull and keel. My guess is your plan would probably help with rolling but make all other performance aspects of the yacht worse. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 10:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Lead and Keels I just got finished melting down another batch of wheel weights today bringing us to a total of 12K pounds of the 30K we need.? So now that my back is killing me I am wondering if it is possible to better place the lead in twin keels so as to take more advantage of the weight and there for reduce the total requirement for lead ballast.? Even saving 4K pounds at this point sounds like a good idea.? What if we build our twin keels only 2 inches wide and put all for the lead in wings at the bottom of the keels.? I'm thinking the wings would extend outward horizontally and they had enough volume to contain all of the lead.? The rest of the keel above the lead would then be used for cooling. I would not want the wings to be very wide, perhaps only 12 inches,? because I'd still want to be able to dry out the hull and I don't want them to need too much steel reinforcement in order to keep them from being damaged.? I'd attach them to the vertical keel with Ells cut from 1 inch plate on 24 inch centers and make the bottom plate of the wing from 1/2" steel.? The Ells would baffle the keels and extend to the tips of the wings to add support. My though is that the lead will not just be concentrated at the lowest point, but the keel will be thiner and the wing will also help to dampen roll. Does that sound logical?? Am I missing something? Thanks Doug J Tulsa, OK www.SubmarineBoat.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: 10/19/2008 6:02 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18593|18557|2008-10-20 16:55:46|brentswain38|Re: Lead and Keels|Thinner keels tend to stall when making leeway going to windward. Too thin is a mistake ,unless you are going in one direction only ,making no leeway, which doesn't happen in the real world of sailing. Even in a quartering sea you get banged around enough to cause thin keels to stall , especially if the leading edge is too sharp. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > I just got finished melting down another batch of wheel weights today bringing us to a total of 12K pounds of the 30K we need.? So now that my back is killing me I am wondering if it is possible to better place the lead in twin keels so as to take more advantage of the weight and there for reduce the total requirement for lead ballast.? Even saving 4K pounds at this point sounds like a good idea.? > > What if we build our twin keels only 2 inches wide and put all for the lead in wings at the bottom of the keels.? I'm thinking the wings would extend outward horizontally and they had enough volume to contain all of the lead.? The rest of the keel above the lead would then be used for cooling. > > I would not want the wings to be very wide, perhaps only 12 inches,? because I'd still want to be able to dry out the hull and I don't want them to need too much steel reinforcement in order to keep them from being damaged.? I'd attach them to the vertical keel with Ells cut from 1 inch plate on 24 inch centers and make the bottom plate of the wing from 1/2" steel.? The Ells would baffle the keels and extend to the tips of the wings to add support. > > My though is that the lead will not just be concentrated at the lowest point, but the keel will be thiner and the wing will also help to dampen roll. > > Does that sound logical?? Am I missing something? > > Thanks > Doug J > Tulsa, OK > www.SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18594|18557|2008-10-20 17:08:54|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Lead and Keels|Thanks Paul.? If I find some merit for the idea I will ask Jack Carson about it, but we're not building an Americas cup entry.? Also Jack is not exactly the tank testing kind of designer which is good because I'm not the kind that gives much credence to tank test anyway.? I'd rather talk to someone that has done it first, if that is possible.? --Doug J. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 3:21 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Lead and Keels Doug, I wouldn't change anything without the designers approval. Keel design is critical to the performance of a yacht. The flow of water over a keel can become turbulent if not done right and greatly increase the drag. Making keels narrower, for example can cause them to "stall" earlier and effect windward performance and steering. Designing a wing keel is very complex. The angle of the wings is critical and probably best done with tank testing due to the flow lines around the hull and keel. My guess is your plan would probably help with rolling but make all other performance aspects of the yacht worse. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 10:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Lead and Keels I just got finished melting down another batch of wheel weights today bringing us to a total of 12K pounds of the 30K we need.? So now that my back is killing me I am wondering if it is possible to better place the lead in twin keels so as to take more advantage of the weight and there for reduce the total requirement for lead ballast.? Even saving 4K pounds at this point sounds like a good idea.? What if we build our twin keels only 2 inches wide and put all for the lead in wings at the bottom of the keels.? I'm thinking the wings would extend outward horizontally and they had enough volume to contain all of the lead.? The rest of the keel above the lead would then be used for cooling. I would not want the wings to be very wide, perhaps only 12 inches,? because I'd still want to be able to dry out the hull and I don't want them to need too much steel reinforcement in order to keep them from being damaged.? I'd attach them to the vertical keel with Ells cut from 1 inch plate on 24 inch centers and make the bottom plate of the wing from 1/2" steel.? The Ells would baffle the keels and extend to the tips of the wings to add support. My though is that the lead will not just be concentrated at the lowest point, but the keel will be thiner and the wing will also help to dampen roll. Does that sound logical?? Am I missing something? Thanks Doug J Tulsa, OK www.SubmarineBoat.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: 10/19/2008 6:02 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18595|18557|2008-10-20 17:16:57|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Lead and Keels|Thanks Brent, that's good to know.? What do you think about putting a wing, about 12 to 16 inches wide down the outside of the bottom of the keel?? No pitch, just a lead filled wing in order to get the ballast lower and help dampen roll??? Like this:? http://www.submarineboat.com/images/sailboat/wing_keel_idea.JPG Thanks Doug -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 3:52 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels Thinner keels tend to stall when making leeway going to windward. Too thin is a mistake ,unless you are going in one direction only ,making no leeway, which doesn't happen in the real world of sailing. Even in a quartering sea you get banged around enough to cause thin keels to stall , especially if the leading edge is too sharp. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > I just got finished melting down another batch of wheel weights today bringing us to a total of 12K pounds of the 30K we need.? So now that my back is killing me I am wondering if it is possible to better place the lead in twin keels so as to take more advantage of the weight and there for reduce the total requirement for lead ballast.? Even saving 4K pounds at this point sounds like a good idea.? > > What if we build our twin keels only 2 inches wide and put all for the lead in wings at the bottom of the keels.? I'm thinking the wings would extend outward horizontally and they had enough volume to contain all of the lead.? The rest of the keel above the lead would then be used for cooling. > > I would not want the wings to be very wide, perhaps only 12 inches,? because I'd still want to be able to dry out the hull and I don't want them to need too much steel reinforcement in order to keep them from being damaged.? I'd attach them to the vertical keel with Ells cut from 1 inch plate on 24 inch centers and make the bottom plate of the wing from 1/2" steel.? The Ells would baffle the keels and extend to the tips of the wings to add support. > > My though is that the lead will not just be concentrated at the lowest point, but the keel will be thiner and the wing will also help to dampen roll. > > Does that sound logical?? Am I missing something? > > Thanks > Doug J > Tulsa, OK > www.SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18596|18554|2008-10-20 17:33:58|martin demers|Re: home hardwar boat paint|Is it better than Tremclad? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:10:06 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: home hardwar boat paint > > > I've seen it in white and green. I have used the white, some with tint > in it, for decades. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: >> >> The stuuf is called Fisherman's Paint in Courtenay they only have >> gray, blue and white it's twenty bucks a gallon. it's on my boat which >> isn't yet in the water so i can atest to it's reliablity but brent >> says he uses it above the waterline. It's not for below the waterline >> says on the can. >> >>> hi, >>> >>> In some previous post there was an allusion made about Home Hardwar >> boat paint. I went to >>> their web site to find it and was not able to do so. I am interested >> to learn more about it >>> specially because it is suppose to be more affordable. Can someone >> who knows that product >>> direct me to a more precise identification. >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Martin. >>> >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18597|18557|2008-10-20 17:58:20|brentswain38|Re: Lead and Keels|I've been thinking about that lately. The bottoms of the keels get a bit of a pounding , so I wouldn't go that far out, but do the outside more like a scheel keel, with half inch plate and pipe wall to take the pounding. I'd keep it too small to foul the anchor rode. I'v eben told that when airplanes started putting those downward pointing wingtips on they saved a bundle on fuel. Maybe Scheel keelg the outsuides of twin keels will reduce slippage and drag from tip vortexes enough to drasticaly improve windward performance. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent, that's good to know.? What do you think about putting a wing, about 12 to 16 inches wide down the outside of the bottom of the keel?? No pitch, just a lead filled wing in order to get the ballast lower and help dampen roll??? > > > Like this:? http://www.submarineboat.com/images/sailboat/wing_keel_idea.JPG > > Thanks > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 3:52 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thinner keels tend to stall when making leeway going to windward. Too > > > thin is a mistake ,unless you are going in one direction only ,making > > > no leeway, which doesn't happen in the real world of sailing. Even in > > > a quartering sea you get banged around enough to cause thin keels to > > > stall , especially if the leading edge is too sharp. > > > Brent > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I just got finished melting down another batch of wheel weights > > > today bringing us to a total of 12K pounds of the 30K we need.? So now > > > that my back is killing me I am wondering if it is possible to better > > > place the lead in twin keels so as to take more advantage of the > > > weight and there for reduce the total requirement for lead ballast.? > > > Even saving 4K pounds at this point sounds like a good idea.? > > > > > > > > What if we build our twin keels only 2 inches wide and put all for > > > the lead in wings at the bottom of the keels.? I'm thinking the wings > > > would extend outward horizontally and they had enough volume to > > > contain all of the lead.? The rest of the keel above the lead would > > > then be used for cooling. > > > > > > > > I would not want the wings to be very wide, perhaps only 12 inches,? > > > because I'd still want to be able to dry out the hull and I don't want > > > them to need too much steel reinforcement in order to keep them from > > > being damaged.? I'd attach them to the vertical keel with Ells cut > > > from 1 inch plate on 24 inch centers and make the bottom plate of the > > > wing from 1/2" steel.? The Ells would baffle the keels and extend to > > > the tips of the wings to add support. > > > > > > > > My though is that the lead will not just be concentrated at the > > > lowest point, but the keel will be thiner and the wing will also help > > > to dampen roll. > > > > > > > > Does that sound logical?? Am I missing something? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Doug J > > > > Tulsa, OK > > > > www.SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18598|18518|2008-10-20 18:18:18|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|86 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed since then, Evan has since come to think of himself as an expert, with absolutely no cruising experience since. A lo tof my boats have crosed a o lot of oceans since then and a lot of their input has been added to my designs.Evan used to listen to what I suggested from input from other cruisers out actualy cruising , and follow the directions I gave him. Now it's like trying to get a message thru a brick wall. For example, he took this 31 footer out for a sail in Georgia strait once, got caught out in a 25 knot westerly , and surprise, surprise , the anchor well vent that he had absolutely no cover on, and no way to close off, got a few splashes of water rin , and scared the shit out of him. He appeared to decide then and there that all vents are a bad idea , because they let water in. The boat next to me that Evan built has no real vents except the hatches , which are all you need if you repeat Evans only experience ,which is tied to the dock , but they don't work beating to windward offshore. You get "dockside only" experience. A couple in Frisco Bay were camped on a boat that Evan built , and woke up with splitting headaches, in time, fortunately, to realise that the boat was totally airtight. They were suffocating. The owner has since made the ventilation changes that were in the original design, that Evan had overuled. Don't let an amateur make life and death decisions, of which there are many on offshore cruising boats. On my first run to Tonga and back I didn't have enough ventilation , enough for safety but not enough for comfort. beating to windward thru the tropics for 4,000 miles. I put a couple of four inch cowl vents in for the next trip , and the difference was huge . You still need air in a hurricane , vents that can be left open in any conditions. Hurricanes don make you immune to suffocation. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > You make it sound like all of Evan's boats are crap :). I have to say that > I had no problems with Evan whatsoever. I never felt any pressure to change > anything. The most major change I made, was bounced off you and you said it > would be OK. At the time, Evan had built or helped build 9 of your boats. > I don't want to be critical, but to be fair, I have to say the plans were > quite "sketchy" at the time and had few details. I am sure it is different > now, but this was in 1986. I trusted Evan to interpret the plans, since he > had the experience in building the boats and had approval by you to build to > the plans. He made it clear that he had no cruising experience. If I > remember right, I don't think he had actually sailed any boat at the time > since his own boat had only just been launched. Be that as it may, I am > sure there were no changes to any of the scantlings since the materials were > ordered according to your list. Any design changes, like I said, were > bounced off you. I did make a few of my own minor decisions since I had a > little bit of offshore crewing and local sailing and developed some of my > own opinions. While I was building, you dropped by once in awhile and > voiced no objections as to what was going on. If you had said you didn't > like something, I definitely would have changed it. Has any two homebuilt > boats ever been the same? > > In conclusion, as far as my experience goes, any changes to the plans were > my decision and I am to be blamed, not Evan. I am certain I could have > learned more if you had built the boat instead of Evan, but I am extremely > happy with the result. It has proven itself over and over again and sails > great. > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:25 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Common Screwups > > Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an board > if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out at low > tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off their boat > and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the government has > made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian waters. > I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any boats I > have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, > especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. > I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back aboard > any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him to do so, > but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients struggle with > everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while living > in drying anchorages. > The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life tied to a > dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a total > cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes life and > death decisions) > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges of the twin > > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single keel will > > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with molten lead > > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading edge pipe > > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long after I > > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made the keels > > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a rats ass > > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have your money > > by then. Tough shit! > > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the wheelhouse , > > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch plate > > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull to a web > > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on the > > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the strength > > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of the keels > > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto the keels > > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end of the > > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It could be > > neccessary on the 31 tho. > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin then a flat > > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see out of the > > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in the rain > > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be foolish. > > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor space aft. > > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 have had no > > > problem getting headroom without having to change the design in any > > > way , except lowering the floor. > > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then it would > > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Gerrit" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I > think > > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone > trys > > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start building > > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I > would > > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a > lot of > > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as > possible. In > > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and pilothouse I > > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how > I get > > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and > > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will > not be > > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. > Because I > > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom and if > > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I > think > > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. > > > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up > to my > > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the pilothouse and > > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane in bad > > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: 10/19/2008 > 6:02 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18599|18557|2008-10-21 02:29:28|Aaron Williams|Re: Lead and Keels|What if any results from Ted's winged keels?  The pictures are in the photo section. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/view/aa0f?b=2 --- On Mon, 10/20/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 1:58 PM I've been thinking about that lately. The bottoms of the keels get a bit of a pounding , so I wouldn't go that far out, but do the outside more like a scheel keel, with half inch plate and pipe wall to take the pounding. I'd keep it too small to foul the anchor rode. I'v eben told that when airplanes started putting those downward pointing wingtips on they saved a bundle on fuel. Maybe Scheel keelg the outsuides of twin keels will reduce slippage and drag from tip vortexes enough to drasticaly improve windward performance. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, djackson99@. .. wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent, that's good to know.? What do you think about putting a wing, about 12 to 16 inches wide down the outside of the bottom of the keel?? No pitch, just a lead filled wing in order to get the ballast lower and help dampen roll??? > > > Like this:? http://www.submarin eboat.com/ images/sailboat/ wing_keel_ idea.JPG > > Thanks > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 3:52 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thinner keels tend to stall when making leeway going to windward. Too > > > thin is a mistake ,unless you are going in one direction only ,making > > > no leeway, which doesn't happen in the real world of sailing. Even in > > > a quartering sea you get banged around enough to cause thin keels to > > > stall , especially if the leading edge is too sharp. > > > Brent > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I just got finished melting down another batch of wheel weights > > > today bringing us to a total of 12K pounds of the 30K we need.? So now > > > that my back is killing me I am wondering if it is possible to better > > > place the lead in twin keels so as to take more advantage of the > > > weight and there for reduce the total requirement for lead ballast.? > > > Even saving 4K pounds at this point sounds like a good idea.? > > > > > > > > What if we build our twin keels only 2 inches wide and put all for > > > the lead in wings at the bottom of the keels.? I'm thinking the wings > > > would extend outward horizontally and they had enough volume to > > > contain all of the lead.? The rest of the keel above the lead would > > > then be used for cooling. > > > > > > > > I would not want the wings to be very wide, perhaps only 12 inches,? > > > because I'd still want to be able to dry out the hull and I don't want > > > them to need too much steel reinforcement in order to keep them from > > > being damaged.? I'd attach them to the vertical keel with Ells cut > > > from 1 inch plate on 24 inch centers and make the bottom plate of the > > > wing from 1/2" steel.? The Ells would baffle the keels and extend to > > > the tips of the wings to add support. > > > > > > > > My though is that the lead will not just be concentrated at the > > > lowest point, but the keel will be thiner and the wing will also help > > > to dampen roll. > > > > > > > > Does that sound logical?? Am I missing something? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Doug J > > > > Tulsa, OK > > > > www.SubmarineBoat. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18600|18557|2008-10-21 05:19:09|edward_stoneuk|Re: Lead and Keels|Hi Aaron, We are still fitting out and it will be a little while yet before we put to sea. The base of the keels is 1/2" plate and the edge around the wing is 3/4" round bar. In the middle of the keel athwartships is a knee boot shaped 1/4" frame. A plate is welded over the lead and up the front and back of the keel interior to make the diesel tank. These welds are difficult because the keel is very narrow. I have painted the inside of the keel tank with POR 15 to ensure that the welds are sealed as I didn't want the fuel contaminated with the lead, although I do not know if it would have caused problems. We filled the keels with lead before fitting them as I wanted to make sure that the lead ran into the outside of the wing. Regards, Ted| 18601|18557|2008-10-21 15:33:12|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Lead and Keels|Those are great looking keels Ted.? And just the information I was looking for.? Did you see anyone else that had wings on a bilge keel before you build these? I just finished reading the "wing keel" post in the archive; you and Brent must be having deja vu.? From what I can gather, probably help performance and it's just obvious to me anyway that they will soften roll both underway and at anchor.? I'll probably do something along the lines of a wing even if it's just using 1 1/2" plate for the keels bottom and extending it several inches outboard. I'll check with Jack Carson next.? He drew up our hull, but I know he'll likey say "You have lots to do, so don't go looking for more".? :) Best of Luck Doug J www.SubmarineBoat.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18602|18557|2008-10-22 15:04:57|brentswain38|Re: Lead and Keels|I don't think 12 to 16 inches would stand up when you are in a drying anchorage and a bit of swell came in. I don't think you could build it strong enough. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent, that's good to know.? What do you think about putting a wing, about 12 to 16 inches wide down the outside of the bottom of the keel?? No pitch, just a lead filled wing in order to get the ballast lower and help dampen roll??? > > > Like this:? http://www.submarineboat.com/images/sailboat/wing_keel_idea.JPG > > Thanks > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 3:52 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thinner keels tend to stall when making leeway going to windward. Too > > > thin is a mistake ,unless you are going in one direction only ,making > > > no leeway, which doesn't happen in the real world of sailing. Even in > > > a quartering sea you get banged around enough to cause thin keels to > > > stall , especially if the leading edge is too sharp. > > > Brent > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I just got finished melting down another batch of wheel weights > > > today bringing us to a total of 12K pounds of the 30K we need.? So now > > > that my back is killing me I am wondering if it is possible to better > > > place the lead in twin keels so as to take more advantage of the > > > weight and there for reduce the total requirement for lead ballast.? > > > Even saving 4K pounds at this point sounds like a good idea.? > > > > > > > > What if we build our twin keels only 2 inches wide and put all for > > > the lead in wings at the bottom of the keels.? I'm thinking the wings > > > would extend outward horizontally and they had enough volume to > > > contain all of the lead.? The rest of the keel above the lead would > > > then be used for cooling. > > > > > > > > I would not want the wings to be very wide, perhaps only 12 inches,? > > > because I'd still want to be able to dry out the hull and I don't want > > > them to need too much steel reinforcement in order to keep them from > > > being damaged.? I'd attach them to the vertical keel with Ells cut > > > from 1 inch plate on 24 inch centers and make the bottom plate of the > > > wing from 1/2" steel.? The Ells would baffle the keels and extend to > > > the tips of the wings to add support. > > > > > > > > My though is that the lead will not just be concentrated at the > > > lowest point, but the keel will be thiner and the wing will also help > > > to dampen roll. > > > > > > > > Does that sound logical?? Am I missing something? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Doug J > > > > Tulsa, OK > > > > www.SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18603|18557|2008-10-22 19:07:40|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Lead and Keels|Thanks Brent Then maybe a hinged wing keel? :)?? So you don't think that Teds keel will take the stress? Ted, when do you plan on being in the water?? Would you mind beaching on a lee shore for us? Seriously, I think that there is a design that would be sufficiently tough, provided you were being pounded against the rocks I think your making a good point for the cost and time are not worth the payoff --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 2:04 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels I don't think 12 to 16 inches would stand up when you are in a drying anchorage and a bit of swell came in. I don't think you could build it strong enough. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18604|18604|2008-10-23 00:49:40|Alex|Alex's new Origamiboats site|Hey y'all, I finally got a working website up for promoting my boatbuilding video, please click on it and have a look to help it propagate on Google and other search engines! http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats If you find spelling errors or have suggestions for formatting and content, please also give me your candid advice/opinions so that I can make it as good a site as possible. It's a basic template for my origamiboats.ca website which I'm still struggling with and hope to also get up soon. Alex| 18606|18557|2008-10-23 06:30:09|sae140|Re: Lead and Keels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Seriously, I think that there is a design that would be sufficiently tough, provided you were being pounded against the rocks > > I think your making a good point for the cost and time are not worth the payoff > > --Doug J > Back in Jan 2005 (message #6535) I put forward the suggestion of making keel-tip torpedoes from condemned oxygen bottles to contain 100% lead - a kind-of crude substitute for a Scheel-keel. The views expressed then were that it probably wasn't worth the effort of fabrication. There is also the problem of welding mixed-grade steel. Perhaps this, or a similar idea is worth re-considering ? Colin| 18607|18604|2008-10-23 07:19:18|James Pronk|Re: Alex's new Origamiboats site|Hello Alex I love your new web site, very well done! I will send links of it to a lot of people. I am still working hard a scrounging materials and making small parts. Thanks for all your hard work, James --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hey y'all, I finally got a working website up for promoting my > boatbuilding video, please click on it and have a look to help it > propagate on Google and other search engines! > > http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats > > If you find spelling errors or have suggestions for formatting and > content, please also give me your candid advice/opinions so that I can > make it as good a site as possible. > > It's a basic template for my origamiboats.ca website which I'm still > struggling with and hope to also get up soon. > > Alex > | 18608|18604|2008-10-23 08:55:35|Carl Anderson|Re: Alex's new Origamiboats site|Alex, Wonderful web site! I will be putting a link up to it today from MoonflowerOfMoab.com Carl Alex wrote: > > > Hey y'all, I finally got a working website up for promoting my > boatbuilding video, please click on it and have a look to help it > propagate on Google and other search engines! > > http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats > > If you find spelling errors or have suggestions for formatting and > content, please also give me your candid advice/opinions so that I can > make it as good a site as possible. > > It's a basic template for my origamiboats.ca website which I'm still > struggling with and hope to also get up soon. > > Alex > > | 18609|18557|2008-10-23 09:11:43|David Frantz|Re: Lead and Keels|If you are going to do something like that why not use standard pipe? That way you can match your metals. Further you should be able to get hemispherical caps to weld on. As to the utility of adding such to a boat I'm not qualified to say. There would however seem to be an advantage in having the greatest portion of the lead close to the bottom of the keel. Of course if you put all that weight down there you have to make sure you are good structurally. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 23, 2008, at 6:30 AM, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: >> >> Seriously, I think that there is a design that would be sufficiently > tough, provided you were being pounded against the rocks >> >> I think your making a good point for the cost and time are not worth > the payoff >> >> --Doug J >> > > Back in Jan 2005 (message #6535) I put forward the suggestion of > making keel-tip torpedoes from condemned oxygen bottles to contain > 100% lead - a kind-of crude substitute for a Scheel-keel. The views > expressed then were that it probably wasn't worth the effort of > fabrication. There is also the problem of welding mixed-grade steel. > > Perhaps this, or a similar idea is worth re-considering ? > > Colin > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18610|18604|2008-10-23 09:57:34|James|Re: Alex's new Origamiboats site|excellent , Alex , i like it and it`s inspiring me to get off my a-s and get some steel organised . Jim , Scotland On 10/23/08, Alex wrote: > > Hey y'all, I finally got a working website up for promoting my > boatbuilding video, please click on it and have a look to help it > propagate on Google and other search engines! > > http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats > > If you find spelling errors or have suggestions for formatting and > content, please also give me your candid advice/opinions so that I can > make it as good a site as possible. > > It's a basic template for my origamiboats.ca website which I'm still > struggling with and hope to also get up soon. > > Alex > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18611|18557|2008-10-23 10:15:01|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Lead and Keels|Yeah thanks, I read that thread too. I don't thing the fabrication time for torpedoes would be considerably less that Ted's wing keel but perhaps not likely to preform as well. My amateur view is that the cross section of a torpedo is considerably more than a wing so so it's going to cause more turbulence. I don't think I'd use a gas bottle because I'd like more metal on the bottom where the punishment is taken. The scrap yard has 8" pipe with 1/2" wall and the locals commonly taper the ends but cutting long wedges and folding the seams closed. That way it could make a gentle transition from the front corner of the keel and again into the aft corner of the keel. Do you know of anyone that has done this on a twin keels? --Doug Tulsa OK ?? Back in Jan 2005 (message #6535) I put forward the suggestion of making keel-tip torpedoes from condemned oxygen bottles to contain 100% lead - a kind-of crude substitute for a Scheel-keel. The views expressed then were that it probably wasn't worth the effort of fabrication. There is also the problem of welding mixed-grade steel. Perhaps this, or a similar idea is worth re-considering ? Colin ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18612|18557|2008-10-23 11:18:36|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Lead and Keels|Yes, sorry I had not read you post before that last reply. We do a lot of gas line work around here and there are multiple companies that stamp out hemispherical caps, but the welders only use them when for the high psi stuff, like 3000 psi, otherwise they just dart and fold, especially for structural stuff. Thinking about this a bit more, and pretending to know something about hydrodynamics I'd think something like Ted keel would be much better suited for the purpose of keeping that higher pressure water flowing laterally down the keel rather than rolling under and causing a vortex and it's associated drag. For that reason I keep coming back to just making the foot of the keel out of really thick steel. Brent scared me, so now I'm thinking about 1 1/2" plate. Then just let that plate extend out to the side. It would slowly curve out from the front to and follow the shape of the keel so that it stuck out about 12" to the side. I guess you could leave it at that if you really wanted simplicity and at that point you have not done any extra work. But it seams to me that you have the same advantage that you are suppose to get from adding a bottom plate to a rudder. To add lead and more thickness to the wing it's just a matter of adding a plate at an angle from the outside of the wing back to the side of the standard keel. Just cut some holes in the side of the standard keel so the lead can flow through and into the wing. Sort of like this: http://www.submarineboat.com/images/sailboat/wing_keel_idea.JPG Again, I'm no engineer, but I'd think that a wing that beefy would just pass the forces right on to the rest of the keel. If the waves and rocks could damage that wing, then they could damage a normal keel without a wing too and I should seek a better parking spot. ? If you are going to do something like that why not use standard pipe? That way you can match your metals. Further you should be able to get hemispherical caps to weld on. As to the utility of adding such to a boat I'm not qualified to say. There would however seem to be an advantage in having the greatest portion of the lead close to the bottom of the keel. Of course if you put all that weight down there you have to make sure you are good structurally. David A Frantz ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18613|18557|2008-10-23 11:24:20|Shane Duncan|Re: Lead and Keels|a long time since I've studied fluids but from what i can remember the cross sectional  area of a torpedo would produce less turbulence than that of a wing given that both have the same length and volume plus a torpedo would have less surface area for the same volume and therefore it would produce less parasitic drag the flow around a torpedo would be less complex than that of just about any wing and assuming both have the same surface roughness separation from laminar flow to turbulent flow would occur further back from the leading edge that's one of the reasons that's why torpedo's are shaped like torpedo's the least drag for a given thrust, ----- Original Message ---- From: "djackson99@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 11:14:42 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels Yeah thanks, I read that thread too.. I don't thing the fabrication time for torpedoes would be considerably less that Ted's wing keel but perhaps not likely to preform as well. My amateur view is that the cross section of a torpedo is considerably more than a wing so so it's going to cause more turbulence. I don't think I'd use a gas bottle because I'd like more metal on the bottom where the punishment is taken. The scrap yard has 8" pipe with 1/2" wall and the locals commonly taper the ends but cutting long wedges and folding the seams closed. That way it could make a gentle transition from the front corner of the keel and again into the aft corner of the keel. Do you know of anyone that has done this on a twin keels? --Doug Tulsa OK ?? Back in Jan 2005 (message #6535) I put forward the suggestion of making keel-tip torpedoes from condemned oxygen bottles to contain 100% lead - a kind-of crude substitute for a Scheel-keel. The views expressed then were that it probably wasn't worth the effort of fabrication.  There is also the problem of welding mixed-grade steel. Perhaps this, or a similar idea is worth re-considering ? Colin ?         [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18614|18557|2008-10-23 11:28:17|Aaron Williams|Re: Lead and Keels|I had concidered going with some 316 SS but the extra time for making the nosecone and the tail would be more of an art show project. Aaron --- On Thu, 10/23/08, djackson99@... wrote: From: djackson99@... Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 6:14 AM Yeah thanks, I read that thread too. I don't thing the fabrication time for torpedoes would be considerably less that Ted's wing keel but perhaps not likely to preform as well. My amateur view is that the cross section of a torpedo is considerably more than a wing so so it's going to cause more turbulence. I don't think I'd use a gas bottle because I'd like more metal on the bottom where the punishment is taken. The scrap yard has 8" pipe with 1/2" wall and the locals commonly taper the ends but cutting long wedges and folding the seams closed. That way it could make a gentle transition from the front corner of the keel and again into the aft corner of the keel. Do you know of anyone that has done this on a twin keels? --Doug Tulsa OK ?? Back in Jan 2005 (message #6535) I put forward the suggestion of making keel-tip torpedoes from condemned oxygen bottles to contain 100% lead - a kind-of crude substitute for a Scheel-keel. The views expressed then were that it probably wasn't worth the effort of fabrication. There is also the problem of welding mixed-grade steel. Perhaps this, or a similar idea is worth re-considering ? Colin ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18615|18604|2008-10-23 11:37:23|Shane Duncan|Re: Alex's new Origamiboats site|Alex I have watched your DVD many,many times after watching it i sent it to my father, two days later he rang me up and said that it looked like too much fun for just me, he took 3 weeks of work flew from New Zealand to Perth to help me rip the hull up. there was talk of you making a detailing DVD is this true? cheers shane ----- Original Message ---- From: James To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:57:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Alex's new Origamiboats site excellent , Alex , i like it and it`s inspiring me to get off my a-s and get some steel organised . Jim , Scotland On 10/23/08, Alex wrote: > > Hey y'all, I finally got a working website up for promoting my > boatbuilding video, please click on it and have a look to help it > propagate on Google and other search engines! > > http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats > > If you find spelling errors or have suggestions for formatting and > content, please also give me your candid advice/opinions so that I can > make it as good a site as possible. > > It's a basic template for my origamiboats.ca website which I'm still > struggling with and hope to also get up soon. > > Alex > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18616|18557|2008-10-23 12:05:13|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Lead and Keels|:)? "Square torpedos? What the hell where they thinking?" Yeah, that makes scene for a torpedo, but I think a torpedo connected to a keel is a different thing.? A torpedo still has a rather blunt end, but that could be tapered. The problem I see, and I purely guessing that it's a problem; is that the force of the water flowing over the bottom edge of the keel is greatest where the keel is at it widest, and it is that point where the pipe would present the least surface to prevent the flow from slipping downward. I suppose the pipe could be attached slightly outboard of the keel and that would help. I haven't a clue if a pipe would create less turbulence in the water the does flow over the edge but I guess it to be better than the sharp edges of a wing stuck onto the side of a normal bilge keel.?? At this point I'd bet we're splitting hairs and fabrication time and durability should have more weight.? On the durability point, I think the torpedo is a killer idea provided it's heavy walled steel. a long time since I've studied fluids but from what i can remember the cross sectional ?area of a torpedo would produce less turbulence than that of a wing given that both have the?same length and volume plus?a torpedo?would have less surface area for the same volume and therefore it would produce less parasitic drag the flow around a torpedo would be less complex than that of just about any wing and?assuming both have the same surface roughness separation from laminar flow to turbulent flow would occur further back from the leading edge that's one?of the reasons that's why torpedo's are shaped like torpedo's the least drag for a given thrust, Have A Nice Day. -----Original Message----- From: Shane Duncan To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 10:24 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels a long time since I've studied fluids but from what i can remember the cross sectional ?area of a torpedo would produce less turbulence than that of a wing given that both have the?same length and volume plus?a torpedo?would have less surface area for the same volume and therefore it would produce less parasitic drag the flow around a torpedo would be less complex than that of just about any wing and?assuming both have the same surface roughness separation from laminar flow to turbulent flow would occur further back from the leading edge that's one?of the reasons that's why torpedo's are shaped like torpedo's the least drag for a given thrust, ----- Original Message ---- From: "djackson99@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 11:14:42 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels Yeah thanks, I read that thread too.. I don't thing the fabrication time for torpedoes would be considerably less that Ted's wing keel but perhaps not likely to preform as well. My amateur view is that the cross section of a torpedo is considerably more than a wing so so it's going to cause more turbulence. I don't think I'd use a gas bottle because I'd like more metal on the bottom where the punishment is taken. The scrap yard has 8" pipe with 1/2" wall and the locals commonly taper the ends but cutting long wedges and folding the seams closed. That way it could make a gentle transition from the front corner of the keel and again into the aft corner of the keel. Do you know of anyone that has done this on a twin keels? --Doug Tulsa OK ?? Back in Jan 2005 (message #6535) I put forward the suggestion of making keel-tip torpedoes from condemned oxygen bottles to contain 100% lead - a kind-of crude substitute for a Scheel-keel. The views expressed then were that it probably wasn't worth the effort of fabrication.? There is also the problem of welding mixed-grade steel. Perhaps this, or a similar idea is worth re-considering ? Colin ? ? ? ? ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:? origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18617|18557|2008-10-23 23:22:35|Aaron Williams|Re: Lead and Keels|Ted   What would be the added width to your keels?  I was just wondering if I could wrap a 2" SS solid stock around the outside of each keels.  I have 1/2" plate with 1/4" SS covering the bottom of the keel. Aaron --- On Tue, 10/21/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: From: edward_stoneuk Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 1:19 AM Hi Aaron, We are still fitting out and it will be a little while yet before we put to sea. The base of the keels is 1/2" plate and the edge around the wing is 3/4" round bar. In the middle of the keel athwartships is a knee boot shaped 1/4" frame. A plate is welded over the lead and up the front and back of the keel interior to make the diesel tank. These welds are difficult because the keel is very narrow. I have painted the inside of the keel tank with POR 15 to ensure that the welds are sealed as I didn't want the fuel contaminated with the lead, although I do not know if it would have caused problems. We filled the keels with lead before fitting them as I wanted to make sure that the lead ran into the outside of the wing. Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18618|18604|2008-10-24 07:22:25|peter_d_wiley|Re: Alex's new Origamiboats site|[Hijacking thread] Shane, I noticed you're using what looks like pre-primed steel over in Perth. What supplier did you use? My local guys told me 'no can do' but I think they merely don't want to deal with anything they don't normally stock. I'm happy to order from the mainland guys, I freight stuff about all the time anyway. When I get home again I've got the money to order all my steel. First I've got to finish this job tho - might take me across to Perth yet, in which case I'll want to come and admire your progress. [End hijack] --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > Alex > > I have watched your DVD many,many times > > after watching it i sent it to my father, two days later he rang me up and said that > it looked like too much fun for just me, he took 3 weeks of work > flew from New Zealand to Perth to help me rip the hull up. > > there was talk of you making a detailing DVD is this true? > > cheers > shane > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: James > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:57:30 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Alex's new Origamiboats site > > excellent , Alex , i like it and it`s inspiring me to get off my a-s and get > some steel organised . > Jim , > Scotland > > > On 10/23/08, Alex wrote: > > > > Hey y'all, I finally got a working website up for promoting my > > boatbuilding video, please click on it and have a look to help it > > propagate on Google and other search engines! > > > > http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats > > > > If you find spelling errors or have suggestions for formatting and > > content, please also give me your candid advice/opinions so that I can > > make it as good a site as possible. > > > > It's a basic template for my origamiboats.ca website which I'm still > > struggling with and hope to also get up soon. > > > > Alex > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18619|18436|2008-10-24 09:01:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: electric motor swain?|On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 01:29:55AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > Thanks for that link, Ben. I was a contributor to r.c.m for over 10 > years until the s/n ratio got too bad and my time became very limited. r.c.m., along with a few other groups, was the cream of the crop of USENET - and I really miss it. Like many other serious groups, they had a strong sense of identity and a self-enforced professional ethic, which filtered out the idiots quite effectively and created a terrific learning and informational environment. If you were there for that long, then I owe you thanks - at some point, you would certainly have contributed to my reading pleasure and education. > I picked up one of those Chinese diesels referred to, with 3.5:1 > marine box, for $400. I got it for the box and planned on ditching the > engine. I may change my mind now, especially as I can easily fabricate > a Lovejoy coupling mount system. > > http://www.utterpower.com has quite a lot of information on these > engines and coupling them to generator heads etc as well. This has > given me some ideas. That *is* a fun site. I really like those guys' attitude and basic approach to things. But I've worked in a machine shop for a while and so have known a number of people like them. :) > What I'm tempted to build/assemble is a 415V 3 phase genset head that > can drive a 10HP 3 phase electric motor. Couple that with a good > variable frequency drive system (VFD) and you're talking of something > interesting and mostly available cheap. 3 phase electrics are cheap, > the VFD is off the shelf and one I have mounted on my milling machine > can theoretically go from 0.5Hz to 1000 Hz at the twist of a pot. No > need for a g/box, just a bearing assy on the prop shaft to deal with > the end thrust. I simply don't think that it's as efficient as a mech > g/box driving a shaft, though, as you'd need the engine running > anyway, and the losses would mount up. Some guy that I'd found during a Web search decided to go with a high-voltage AC motor, since (for a given HP) an industrial gadget like that is going to be a lot cheaper and probably more efficient than a 12v version. It's not as safe, I suppose - but I don't see it as that much of a problem. After all, we allow 120/240v in homes with children, idiots, and animals - and the bare terminals are only ~1/4" behind frangible plastic, or as close as a cracked electric cord... in any case, I see a lot of sense in this. At a high voltage, the current is low enough that it's easy and cheap to control, initial and/or replacement costs would be fairly low, and so on. The only "problem" is that regenerative braking, etc. could be a little tricky to rig up - and there aren't any commercially-available electronics for it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18620|18604|2008-10-24 17:15:10|Shane Duncan|Re: Alex's new Origamiboats site|Peter i had the same problem, re primed steel basically i got my steel form one steel it came in as bare 6m x 1.8m sheets i converted the plans to CAD, this took some time, i made a series of balsa wood models to check every thing lined up, this took about 4 goes then got everything plasma cut out (lined up beautifully though, the two sides were out by only 1.5mm at the transom) then sent the cut outs to get sandblasted and primed, cost a pretty penny always happy to drink beer and talk boats have a spare room if you want to stay a few nights cheers shane   ________________________________ From: peter_d_wiley To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 8:22:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alex's new Origamiboats site [Hijacking thread] Shane, I noticed you're using what looks like pre-primed steel over in Perth. What supplier did you use? My local guys told me 'no can do' but I think they merely don't want to deal with anything they don't normally stock. I'm happy to order from the mainland guys, I freight stuff about all the time anyway. When I get home again I've got the money to order all my steel. First I've got to finish this job tho - might take me across to Perth yet, in which case I'll want to come and admire your progress. [End hijack] --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > Alex > > I have watched your DVD many,many times > > after watching it i sent it to my father, two days later he rang me up and said that > it looked like too much fun for just me, he took 3 weeks of work > flew from New Zealand to Perth to help me rip the hull up. > > there was talk of you making a detailing DVD is this true? > > cheers > shane > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: James > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:57:30 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Alex's new Origamiboats site > > excellent , Alex , i like it and it`s inspiring me to get off my a-s and get > some steel organised . > Jim , > Scotland > > > On 10/23/08, Alex wrote: > > > > Hey y'all, I finally got a working website up for promoting my > > boatbuilding video, please click on it and have a look to help it > > propagate on Google and other search engines! > > > > http://www.freewebs..com/origamiboats > > > > If you find spelling errors or have suggestions for formatting and > > content, please also give me your candid advice/opinions so that I can > > make it as good a site as possible. > > > > It's a basic template for my origamiboats.ca website which I'm still > > struggling with and hope to also get up soon. > > > > Alex > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > >      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18621|18554|2008-10-24 17:42:47|brentswain38|Re: home hardwar boat paint|I've found tremclad to be just a common oil based exterior enamel, no different from any other one. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Is it better than Tremclad? > > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:10:06 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: home hardwar boat paint > > > > > > I've seen it in white and green. I have used the white, some with tint > > in it, for decades. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > >> > >> The stuuf is called Fisherman's Paint in Courtenay they only have > >> gray, blue and white it's twenty bucks a gallon. it's on my boat which > >> isn't yet in the water so i can atest to it's reliablity but brent > >> says he uses it above the waterline. It's not for below the waterline > >> says on the can. > >> > >>> hi, > >>> > >>> In some previous post there was an allusion made about Home Hardwar > >> boat paint. I went to > >>> their web site to find it and was not able to do so. I am interested > >> to learn more about it > >>> specially because it is suppose to be more affordable. Can someone > >> who knows that product > >>> direct me to a more precise identification. > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks, Martin. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 18622|18622|2008-10-24 17:52:46|brentswain38|Moving heat|I get home on a cold night , the boat's cold as ice. I fire up the stove and get a hot spot in my galley. The rest of the boat takes a while to warm up. If I were starting my interior today , It would be a simple matter to run a bit of two inch pipe behind all my interior woodwork to the ends of the boat, from the stove. Then I'd put a 2 inch bilge blower a reasonable distance from the stove. When the stove gets hot , it would be a simple matter to switch the blower on for a few minutes to send heat to the ends of the boat. After a few minutes the blower would no longer be needed. I've found with a well insulated boat, once the interior is warm it tends to stay that way with very little heat. As the fan would only be needed for a few minutes, there would be no need to consider power consumption. A computer fan would be too feeble to do the job. One could bolt a stainless box on the back of the stove with a two inch inlet and outlet to hook stainless tubing up to, but one would have to be careful initially to not let things get too hot. Maybe I can still do it , with a few more couplings. Brent| 18623|18518|2008-10-24 18:09:47|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|One mistake I have often seen over the years is the use of Lexan for pilothouse windows, often by those who have seen it fog up on other boats. After about three years it begins to fog up, eventually making it impossible to see out of that beautiful seat with a view in the wheelhouse. As I mentioned elsewhere on this site, I just pounded a 6 inch round of plexi with a sledgehammer without breaking it. It took may hits with the hammer. I don't think the strength of plexi is an issue unless you go for huge picture windows. A friend in the plastics business told me that plexi has 25 times the impact resistance of standard glass. Side windows are far more prone to breaking than front windows at sea.Tempered glass is a different story, and allows the use of a wiper, a huge advantage in rainy BC. I used 1/2inch tempered glass for the front of my wheelhouse for this reason. Love the hand operated wiper. As the only time it steams up is when I'm cooking, and drys off quickly after , I don't see any advantage in double paned glass. An extra 1/4 inch of foam in the hull will retain more heat. 3/8th glass has the same weight as the 11 guage steel plate that you remove for windows. Anything thicker adds weigh, altho I still prefer half inch tempered. Carl , you said you found a good source for glass. Where? I heard that Bronco glass in Whiterock was good source , but I went to Broco by mistake , a big mistake. I wouldn't recommend them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 86 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed since then, Evan has since come > to think of himself as an expert, with absolutely no cruising > experience since. A lo tof my boats have crosed a o lot of oceans > since then and a lot of their input has been added to my designs.Evan > used to listen to what I suggested from input from other cruisers out > actualy cruising , and follow the directions I gave him. Now it's like > trying to get a message thru a brick wall. > For example, he took this 31 footer out for a sail in Georgia strait > once, got caught out in a 25 knot westerly , and surprise, surprise , > the anchor well vent that he had absolutely no cover on, and no way to > close off, got a few splashes of water rin , and scared the shit out > of him. He appeared to decide then and there that all vents are a > bad idea , because they let water in. > The boat next to me that Evan built has no real vents except the > hatches , which are all you need if you repeat Evans only experience > ,which is tied to the dock , but they don't work beating to windward > offshore. You get "dockside only" experience. > A couple in Frisco Bay were camped on a boat that Evan built , and > woke up with splitting headaches, in time, fortunately, to realise > that the boat was totally airtight. They were suffocating. The owner > has since made the ventilation changes that were in the original > design, that Evan had overuled. Don't let an amateur make life and > death decisions, of which there are many on offshore cruising boats. > On my first run to Tonga and back I didn't have enough ventilation , > enough for safety but not enough for comfort. beating to windward thru > the tropics for 4,000 miles. I put a couple of four inch cowl vents in > for the next trip , and the difference was huge . You still need air > in a hurricane , vents that can be left open in any conditions. > Hurricanes don make you immune to suffocation. > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > You make it sound like all of Evan's boats are crap :). I have to > say that > > I had no problems with Evan whatsoever. I never felt any pressure > to change > > anything. The most major change I made, was bounced off you and you > said it > > would be OK. At the time, Evan had built or helped build 9 of your > boats. > > I don't want to be critical, but to be fair, I have to say the plans > were > > quite "sketchy" at the time and had few details. I am sure it is > different > > now, but this was in 1986. I trusted Evan to interpret the plans, > since he > > had the experience in building the boats and had approval by you to > build to > > the plans. He made it clear that he had no cruising experience. If I > > remember right, I don't think he had actually sailed any boat at the > time > > since his own boat had only just been launched. Be that as it may, I am > > sure there were no changes to any of the scantlings since the > materials were > > ordered according to your list. Any design changes, like I said, were > > bounced off you. I did make a few of my own minor decisions since I > had a > > little bit of offshore crewing and local sailing and developed some > of my > > own opinions. While I was building, you dropped by once in awhile and > > voiced no objections as to what was going on. If you had said you > didn't > > like something, I definitely would have changed it. Has any two > homebuilt > > boats ever been the same? > > > > In conclusion, as far as my experience goes, any changes to the > plans were > > my decision and I am to be blamed, not Evan. I am certain I could have > > learned more if you had built the boat instead of Evan, but I am > extremely > > happy with the result. It has proven itself over and over again and > sails > > great. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:25 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Common Screwups > > > > Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an board > > if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out at low > > tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off their boat > > and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the government has > > made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian waters. > > I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any boats I > > have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, > > especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. > > I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back aboard > > any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him to do so, > > but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients struggle with > > everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while living > > in drying anchorages. > > The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life tied to a > > dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a total > > cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes life and > > death decisions) > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges of the twin > > > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > > > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single keel will > > > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with molten lead > > > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading edge pipe > > > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > > > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long after I > > > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made the keels > > > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a rats ass > > > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have your money > > > by then. Tough shit! > > > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the wheelhouse , > > > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch plate > > > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull to a web > > > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on the > > > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the strength > > > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of the keels > > > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto the keels > > > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > > > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end of the > > > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It could be > > > neccessary on the 31 tho. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin then a flat > > > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see out > of the > > > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in the rain > > > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be foolish. > > > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor space aft. > > > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 have had no > > > > problem getting headroom without having to change the design in any > > > > way , except lowering the floor. > > > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then it would > > > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Gerrit" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I > > think > > > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone > > trys > > > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start > building > > > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I > > would > > > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a > > lot of > > > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as > > possible. In > > > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and > pilothouse I > > > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how > > I get > > > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and > > > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will > > not be > > > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. > > Because I > > > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom > and if > > > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I > > think > > > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up > > to my > > > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the > pilothouse and > > > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane > in bad > > > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: > 10/19/2008 > > 6:02 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 18624|18557|2008-10-24 18:24:46|brentswain38|Re: Lead and Keels|With half inch plate on the bottom, the top piece running directly into the side of the keel and the works full of lead , I don't think Ted will have any structural problems with his keels . They are tough as hell. The only problem Ted will have is with the shape of the trailing edge. Once an anchor rode fouls them by running between the keels he'll have a hell of a problem getting it free, potentially dangerous when fouled off a lee shore on a stormy night. Running a heavy piece of flat bar from the bottom aft corner of the keel to a point above it or slightly aft will help a lot. I had to do that on mine. Experimenting with a line off the bow of a model makes the problem and the solutions clear. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Thanks Brent > > > > Then maybe a hinged wing keel? :)?? So you don't think that Teds keel will take the stress? > > > > Ted, when do you plan on being in the water?? Would you mind beaching on a lee shore for us? > > > > Seriously, I think that there is a design that would be sufficiently tough, provided you were being pounded against the rocks > > > > I think your making a good point for the cost and time are not worth the payoff > > > > --Doug J > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 2:04 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think 12 to 16 inches would stand up when you are in a drying > > > anchorage and a bit of swell came in. I don't think you could build it > > > strong enough. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18625|18557|2008-10-24 18:29:24|brentswain38|Re: Lead and Keels|To much stainless surface area underwater will eat zincs like snackfood. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I had concidered going with some 316 SS�but the�extra time for making the nosecone and the tail would be more of an art show project. > Aaron > > > --- On Thu, 10/23/08, djackson99@... wrote: > > From: djackson99@... > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 6:14 AM > > > > > > > > Yeah thanks, I read that thread too. I don't thing the fabrication time for torpedoes would be considerably less that Ted's wing keel but perhaps not likely to preform as well. My amateur view is that the cross section of a torpedo is considerably more than a wing so so it's going to cause more turbulence. I don't think I'd use a gas bottle because I'd like more metal on the bottom where the punishment is taken. The scrap yard has 8" pipe with 1/2" wall and the locals commonly taper the ends but cutting long wedges and folding the seams closed. That way it could make a gentle transition from the front corner of the keel and again into the aft corner of the keel. > > Do you know of anyone that has done this on a twin keels? > > --Doug > Tulsa OK > ?? > > Back in Jan 2005 (message #6535) I put forward the suggestion of > > making keel-tip torpedoes from condemned oxygen bottles to contain > > 100% lead - a kind-of crude substitute for a Scheel-keel. The views > > expressed then were that it probably wasn't worth the effort of > > fabrication. There is also the problem of welding mixed-grade steel. > > Perhaps this, or a similar idea is worth re-considering ? > > Colin > > ? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18626|18604|2008-10-24 18:36:32|brentswain38|Re: Alex's new Origamiboats site|Great site Alex. Hope it works out well for you,and saves a lot of cruising dreams. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hey y'all, I finally got a working website up for promoting my > boatbuilding video, please click on it and have a look to help it > propagate on Google and other search engines! > > http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats > > If you find spelling errors or have suggestions for formatting and > content, please also give me your candid advice/opinions so that I can > make it as good a site as possible. > > It's a basic template for my origamiboats.ca website which I'm still > struggling with and hope to also get up soon. > > Alex > | 18627|18554|2008-10-24 20:33:36|martin demers|Re: home hardwar boat paint|I know that, but is the Fisherman's boat paint similar to Tremclad and those kind of exterior paints or is it different and made especially for boats? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:42:44 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: home hardwar boat paint > > > I've found tremclad to be just a common oil based exterior enamel, no > different from any other one. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Is it better than Tremclad? >> >> >> Martin. >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: brentswain38@... >>> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:10:06 +0000 >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: home hardwar boat paint >>> >>> >>> I've seen it in white and green. I have used the white, some with tint >>> in it, for decades. >>> Brent >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: >>>> >>>> The stuuf is called Fisherman's Paint in Courtenay they only have >>>> gray, blue and white it's twenty bucks a gallon. it's on my boat > which >>>> isn't yet in the water so i can atest to it's reliablity but brent >>>> says he uses it above the waterline. It's not for below the waterline >>>> says on the can. >>>> >>>>> hi, >>>>> >>>>> In some previous post there was an allusion made about Home Hardwar >>>> boat paint. I went to >>>>> their web site to find it and was not able to do so. I am interested >>>> to learn more about it >>>>> specially because it is suppose to be more affordable. Can someone >>>> who knows that product >>>>> direct me to a more precise identification. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Martin. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18628|18604|2008-10-25 06:10:41|peter_d_wiley|Re: Alex's new Origamiboats site|Thanks, Shane. I did find some pickled & oiled plate a year ago but didn't buy it. I may regret that. There's a mooring out the front of my place if you get the boat as far as Tasmania. Plenty of room and I have everything needed to help out with any problems. PDW > Peter > i had the same problem, re primed steel > basically i got my steel form one steel it came in as bare 6m x 1.8m sheets > > i converted the plans to CAD, this took some time, i made a series of balsa wood models > to check every thing lined up, this took about 4 goes > > then got everything plasma cut out (lined up beautifully though, the two sides were out by only 1.5mm at the transom) > then sent the cut outs to get sandblasted and primed, cost a pretty penny > > always happy to drink beer and talk boats > have a spare room if you want to stay a few nights > > cheers > shane > >   > > > > ________________________________ > From: peter_d_wiley > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 8:22:23 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alex's new Origamiboats site > > [Hijacking thread] > > Shane, I noticed you're using what looks like pre-primed steel over in > Perth. What supplier did you use? My local guys told me 'no can do' > but I think they merely don't want to deal with anything they don't > normally stock. I'm happy to order from the mainland guys, I freight > stuff about all the time anyway. > > When I get home again I've got the money to order all my steel. First > I've got to finish this job tho - might take me across to Perth yet, > in which case I'll want to come and admire your progress. > > [End hijack] > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > Alex > > > > I have watched your DVD many,many times > > > > after watching it i sent it to my father, two days later he rang me > up and said that > > it looked like too much fun for just me, he took 3 weeks of work > > flew from New Zealand to Perth to help me rip the hull up. > > > > there was talk of you making a detailing DVD is this true? > > > > cheers > > shane > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: James > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:57:30 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Alex's new Origamiboats site > > > > excellent , Alex , i like it and it`s inspiring me to get off my a-s > and get > > some steel organised . > > Jim , > > Scotland > > > > > > On 10/23/08, Alex wrote: > > > > > > Hey y'all, I finally got a working website up for promoting my > > > boatbuilding video, please click on it and have a look to help it > > > propagate on Google and other search engines! > > > > > > http://www.freewebs..com/origamiboats > > > > > > If you find spelling errors or have suggestions for formatting and > > > content, please also give me your candid advice/opinions so that I can > > > make it as good a site as possible. > > > > > > It's a basic template for my origamiboats.ca website which I'm still > > > struggling with and hope to also get up soon. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18629|18518|2008-10-25 11:43:27|Carl Anderson|Re: Common Screwups|Brent, I used Garibaldi Glass in Burnaby as the source for M.O.M.'s custom 1/2 inch tempered glass (I did use an offset insulated unit with 1/4 inch inside panel). If anyone needs more info let me know. Carl brentswain38 wrote: > > > > One mistake I have often seen over the years is the use of Lexan for > pilothouse windows, often by those who have seen it fog up on other > boats. After about three years it begins to fog up, eventually making > it impossible to see out of that beautiful seat with a view in the > wheelhouse. > As I mentioned elsewhere on this site, I just pounded a 6 inch round > of plexi with a sledgehammer without breaking it. It took may hits > with the hammer. I don't think the strength of plexi is an issue > unless you go for huge picture windows. A friend in the plastics > business told me that plexi has 25 times the impact resistance of > standard glass. Side windows are far more prone to breaking than > front windows at sea.Tempered glass is a different story, and allows > the use of a wiper, a huge advantage in rainy BC. > I used 1/2inch tempered glass for the front of my wheelhouse for this > reason. Love the hand operated wiper. As the only time it steams up > is when I'm cooking, and drys off quickly after , I don't see any > advantage in double paned glass. An extra 1/4 inch of foam in the hull > will retain more heat. > 3/8th glass has the same weight as the 11 guage steel plate that you > remove for windows. Anything thicker adds weigh, altho I still prefer > half inch tempered. > Carl , you said you found a good source for glass. Where? I heard > that Bronco glass in Whiterock was good source , but I went to Broco > by mistake , a big mistake. I wouldn't recommend them. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > 86 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed since then, Evan has since come > > to think of himself as an expert, with absolutely no cruising > > experience since. A lo tof my boats have crosed a o lot of oceans > > since then and a lot of their input has been added to my designs.Evan > > used to listen to what I suggested from input from other cruisers out > > actualy cruising , and follow the directions I gave him. Now it's like > > trying to get a message thru a brick wall. > > For example, he took this 31 footer out for a sail in Georgia strait > > once, got caught out in a 25 knot westerly , and surprise, surprise , > > the anchor well vent that he had absolutely no cover on, and no way to > > close off, got a few splashes of water rin , and scared the shit out > > of him. He appeared to decide then and there that all vents are a > > bad idea , because they let water in. > > The boat next to me that Evan built has no real vents except the > > hatches , which are all you need if you repeat Evans only experience > > ,which is tied to the dock , but they don't work beating to windward > > offshore. You get "dockside only" experience. > > A couple in Frisco Bay were camped on a boat that Evan built , and > > woke up with splitting headaches, in time, fortunately, to realise > > that the boat was totally airtight. They were suffocating. The owner > > has since made the ventilation changes that were in the original > > design, that Evan had overuled. Don't let an amateur make life and > > death decisions, of which there are many on offshore cruising boats. > > On my first run to Tonga and back I didn't have enough ventilation , > > enough for safety but not enough for comfort. beating to windward thru > > the tropics for 4,000 miles. I put a couple of four inch cowl vents in > > for the next trip , and the difference was huge . You still need air > > in a hurricane , vents that can be left open in any conditions. > > Hurricanes don make you immune to suffocation. > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > You make it sound like all of Evan's boats are crap :). I have to > > say that > > > I had no problems with Evan whatsoever. I never felt any pressure > > to change > > > anything. The most major change I made, was bounced off you and you > > said it > > > would be OK. At the time, Evan had built or helped build 9 of your > > boats. > > > I don't want to be critical, but to be fair, I have to say the plans > > were > > > quite "sketchy" at the time and had few details. I am sure it is > > different > > > now, but this was in 1986. I trusted Evan to interpret the plans, > > since he > > > had the experience in building the boats and had approval by you to > > build to > > > the plans. He made it clear that he had no cruising experience. If I > > > remember right, I don't think he had actually sailed any boat at the > > time > > > since his own boat had only just been launched. Be that as it > may, I am > > > sure there were no changes to any of the scantlings since the > > materials were > > > ordered according to your list. Any design changes, like I said, were > > > bounced off you. I did make a few of my own minor decisions since I > > had a > > > little bit of offshore crewing and local sailing and developed some > > of my > > > own opinions. While I was building, you dropped by once in awhile and > > > voiced no objections as to what was going on. If you had said you > > didn't > > > like something, I definitely would have changed it. Has any two > > homebuilt > > > boats ever been the same? > > > > > > In conclusion, as far as my experience goes, any changes to the > > plans were > > > my decision and I am to be blamed, not Evan. I am certain I could > have > > > learned more if you had built the boat instead of Evan, but I am > > extremely > > > happy with the result. It has proven itself over and over again and > > sails > > > great. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:25 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Common Screwups > > > > > > Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an board > > > if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out at low > > > tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off their boat > > > and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the government has > > > made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian waters. > > > I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any boats I > > > have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, > > > especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. > > > I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back aboard > > > any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him to do so, > > > but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients struggle with > > > everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while living > > > in drying anchorages. > > > The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life tied to a > > > dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a total > > > cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes life and > > > death decisions) > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges of > the twin > > > > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > > > > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single keel will > > > > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with molten lead > > > > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading > edge pipe > > > > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > > > > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long after I > > > > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made the keels > > > > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a rats ass > > > > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have your money > > > > by then. Tough shit! > > > > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the wheelhouse , > > > > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch plate > > > > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull to a web > > > > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on the > > > > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the > strength > > > > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of the keels > > > > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto the keels > > > > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > > > > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end of the > > > > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It could be > > > > neccessary on the 31 tho. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin then a flat > > > > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see out > > of the > > > > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in the > rain > > > > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be > foolish. > > > > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor space aft. > > > > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 have had no > > > > > problem getting headroom without having to change the design > in any > > > > > way , except lowering the floor. > > > > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then it > would > > > > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "Gerrit" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I > > > think > > > > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone > > > trys > > > > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start > > building > > > > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I > > > would > > > > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a > > > lot of > > > > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as > > > possible. In > > > > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and > > pilothouse I > > > > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how > > > I get > > > > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and > > > > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will > > > not be > > > > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. > > > Because I > > > > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom > > and if > > > > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I > > > think > > > > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up > > > to my > > > > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the > > pilothouse and > > > > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane > > in bad > > > > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: > > 10/19/2008 > > > 6:02 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > | 18630|18622|2008-10-25 12:15:05|Carl Anderson|Re: Moving heat|Brent & all, A very handy heat loss calculator for boats is found on Beth Leonard & Evans Starzinger's web site. It is an Excel spreadsheet and you can plug your values (boat dimensions, foam thickness, etc.) and get the resultant heat loss calculations (given as BTU's required for a given delta, or heat differential, between inside & outside temperatures and can be configured in C or F). Here is the link to the calculator page that has lots of other calculators for other things such as electrical, sailing loads, winch sizes, etc.: http://www.bethandevans.com/calculators.htm I found it very useful, particularly the electrical calculator. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com brentswain38 wrote: > > > I get home on a cold night , the boat's cold as ice. I fire up the > stove and get a hot spot in my galley. The rest of the boat takes a > while to warm up. If I were starting my interior today , It would be a > simple matter to run a bit of two inch pipe behind all my interior > woodwork to the ends of the boat, from the stove. Then I'd put a 2 > inch bilge blower a reasonable distance from the stove. When the stove > gets hot , it would be a simple matter to switch the blower on for a > few minutes to send heat to the ends of the boat. After a few > minutes the blower would no longer be needed. I've found with a well > insulated boat, once the interior is warm it tends to stay that way > with very little heat. As the fan would only be needed for a few > minutes, there would be no need to consider power consumption. A > computer fan would be too feeble to do the job. > One could bolt a stainless box on the back of the stove with a two > inch inlet and outlet to hook stainless tubing up to, but one would > have to be careful initially to not let things get too hot. > Maybe I can still do it , with a few more couplings. > Brent > > | 18631|18622|2008-10-25 15:08:02|Aaron Williams|Re: Moving heat|Thanks Carl They have a lot of other sailing info also. --- On Sat, 10/25/08, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Moving heat To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 8:15 AM Brent & all, A very handy heat loss calculator for boats is found on Beth Leonard & Evans Starzinger's web site. It is an Excel spreadsheet and you can plug your values (boat dimensions, foam thickness, etc.) and get the resultant heat loss calculations (given as BTU's required for a given delta, or heat differential, between inside & outside temperatures and can be configured in C or F). Here is the link to the calculator page that has lots of other calculators for other things such as electrical, sailing loads, winch sizes, etc.: http://www.bethande vans.com/ calculators. htm I found it very useful, particularly the electrical calculator. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab. com brentswain38 wrote: > > > I get home on a cold night , the boat's cold as ice. I fire up the > stove and get a hot spot in my galley. The rest of the boat takes a > while to warm up. If I were starting my interior today , It would be a > simple matter to run a bit of two inch pipe behind all my interior > woodwork to the ends of the boat, from the stove. Then I'd put a 2 > inch bilge blower a reasonable distance from the stove. When the stove > gets hot , it would be a simple matter to switch the blower on for a > few minutes to send heat to the ends of the boat. After a few > minutes the blower would no longer be needed. I've found with a well > insulated boat, once the interior is warm it tends to stay that way > with very little heat. As the fan would only be needed for a few > minutes, there would be no need to consider power consumption. A > computer fan would be too feeble to do the job. > One could bolt a stainless box on the back of the stove with a two > inch inlet and outlet to hook stainless tubing up to, but one would > have to be careful initially to not let things get too hot. > Maybe I can still do it , with a few more couplings. > Brent > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18632|18557|2008-10-25 17:50:35|edward_stoneuk|Re: Lead and Keels|Doug, Aaron, I have posted some photos of the starboard keel in the album 36' Fly. At its widest point the foot is 13" wide. I have lost my design notes, but from memory I used a NACA00xx curve for the outside edge. I have seen fin keels with wings and bilge keels with wings more especially in photos. I have been trying to find the websites with them on but cannot find the one that I used for inspiration, which was a French one with a lot of technical detail. I think Legend/Hunter yachts have several in their range the twin keels with splayed out wings. They are quite light and thin. There is one Hunter on the web that I found with winged keels but they aren't very clear. I had thought about using gas bottles or rather 6" or 8" sched 40 with end caps but thought the parallel side shape was wrong and it would be dificult to fair in to the keel. I thought about ropes catching on the front of the keel when I faired in the front of the wing, but didn't when I took the bite out of the aft of the keel, which I did to reduce the wetted area and to provide a gusset like structure where the keel meets the hull at the aft crosmember of the water tanks. I hadn't thought about reversing off a rope. Ah well. Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18633|18557|2008-10-25 18:08:55|edward_stoneuk|Re: Lead and Keels|Doug, Aaron, Here is a site with a photo of a Hunter with lumps on the ends of its twin keels. I Googled "biquille", which is the French for twin keels. /www.xboat.fr/en/photos-1428-HUNTER+306+BIQUILLE.html This isn't the site that I used before for information, but it is a start. Regards, Ted| 18634|18634|2008-10-25 18:19:02|Gary Prebble|Orcas missing|News today that 6 Orcas (largest loss ever) has occured in San Juan Islands. Belief is that they starved to death due to lack of Salmon. There is a totally distinct pod that feeds on seals. I wonder if necessity will see the salmon eating group switch to seal...does not look like it however.| 18635|18557|2008-10-25 18:23:39|edward_stoneuk|Re: Lead and Keels|Doug, Aaron, Here is the site that is was thinking of. I found it at last. http://www.lerouge-yachts.com/mono_TKS.htm Regards, Ted| 18636|18636|2008-10-26 18:26:11|sae140|DIY Solid Fuel Marine Heater|I've just uploaded details of a Solid Fuel Marine Heater - which is more suited to coal than wood - into the \Files section. Colin| 18637|18557|2008-10-26 19:07:01|sae140|Re: Lead and Keels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > A torpedo still has a rather blunt end, but that could be tapered. The leading end would need to be fabricated in such a way that it seamlessly flowed with the leading edge of the keel - you certainly wouldn't want it to project forward in advance of the keel's leading edge, unless you were planning on deliberately catching weed and nets (!). 1/2" wall pipe sounds good. One big advantage that I see is that using round pipe would eliminate the hazardous process of melting thousands of pounds of lead in one go. Before fitting the torpedo, it could be held vertical and just the leading tip filled with molten lead. After welding the torpedo to the keel, the pipe could then be filled with cylindrical slugs of lead moulded from a short length of identical pipe - say a 100 lbs at a time - in a similar manner to how cordite is loaded into a battleship's cannon's breach. That would just leave the detached trailing tip to deal with. I would visualise this as a simple elongated cone, which could be filled with lead before welding the cone onto the rear of the torpedo. I doubt if more than a couple of hundred pounds of lead would need to be melted in one go. > I think the torpedo is a killer idea provided it's heavy walled steel. I agree - but of course it's only an armchair engineering idea at present, and it may be that something VERY important has been overlooked ... I did think about squashing the tube into an oval (would need a mighty press !) which would then bring the x-section very close to that of a Scheel-keel, but I doubt if you could succesfully load slugs of lead with that shape. Ah well, back to the real world .... Colin| 18638|18636|2008-10-26 19:20:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: DIY Solid Fuel Marine Heater|On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 10:26:08PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > I've just uploaded details of a Solid Fuel Marine Heater - which is > more suited to coal than wood - into the \Files section. Interesting design, Colin. Any thoughts on how much something like that might cost? I've given some thought to cruising the European canals, and given the current price of, say, a Dickinson diesel stove ($800 or so for a medium-sized one), this sounds like a pretty good option. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18639|18639|2008-10-26 20:27:03|heretic_37ft|Karl before sailing from Hawaii to Canada|Very cool guy... http://krahenbuhl.net/BrentSwain37/060515-haulout/P1010191.JPG -- The Heretic PS Back ground boat was built by Brent Swain and Dan Henkel| 18640|18640|2008-10-27 03:08:56|patriciabaltman|Freebies 27th October|Dear Members A NEW Page of great Freebies was just added ready for Monday 27th October. Visit Now! If you would like a veritable 'mountain' of free-stuff, take the time to visit the website below. It is packed with great freebies that ALL members can grab! There is even 250 Free Books you can download, straight away! You are sure to find something of interest, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES when you arrive at the site and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces...but its worth the work!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies! PS: When you have collected a few freebies for yourself, be nice and pass this email message forward to all your family and friends. Its very satisfying helping others and everyone loves something for nothing!| 18641|18641|2008-10-27 04:11:26|Gerrit|Gaff Rig|Hello all Im looking for the cheapest and simplest way to build my ship and Im a lover of the gaff cutter too. So Im thinking about the possibility of a gaff rig on my Swain 36. Did anybody build this? I mean a more modern gaff rig, not too heavy with a light and shorter gaff than traditional boats have. I would like to have a selftending reefable jib and a furled sail on the bow oitside. Topsails for light wind would be good. The mast could be lower and stand in a tabernacle. I believe it would be a very fine option for a cruising boat and does not need any winches too. Who has an idea or any information specially for a boat like the Swain 36? Greetings, Gerrit| 18642|18641|2008-10-27 04:25:49|peter_d_wiley|Re: Gaff Rig|Go to George Buehler's web site and look at the plans etc for 'JUNO' and his other boats. He has some gaff rigs for hulls around the same displacement IIRC. www.georgebuehler.com One of these days I'm going to build a POGO just as a toy. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerrit" wrote: > > Hello all > > Im looking for the cheapest and simplest way to build my ship and Im a > lover of the gaff cutter too. So Im thinking about the possibility of > a gaff rig on my Swain 36. > > Did anybody build this? I mean a more modern gaff rig, not too heavy > with a light and shorter gaff than traditional boats have. I would > like to have a selftending reefable jib and a furled sail on the bow > oitside. Topsails for light wind would be good. > > The mast could be lower and stand in a tabernacle. I believe it would > be a very fine option for a cruising boat and does not need any > winches too. > > Who has an idea or any information specially for a boat like the Swain 36? > > Greetings, Gerrit > | 18643|18641|2008-10-27 04:29:14|James|Re: Gaff Rig|Gerrit, do you know of the* yago* boat site ? probably made for you, gaff rig and all. jim On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:11 AM, Gerrit wrote: > Hello all > > Im looking for the cheapest and simplest way to build my ship and Im a > lover of the gaff cutter too. So Im thinking about the possibility of > a gaff rig on my Swain 36. > > Did anybody build this? I mean a more modern gaff rig, not too heavy > with a light and shorter gaff than traditional boats have. I would > like to have a selftending reefable jib and a furled sail on the bow > oitside. Topsails for light wind would be good. > > The mast could be lower and stand in a tabernacle. I believe it would > be a very fine option for a cruising boat and does not need any > winches too. > > Who has an idea or any information specially for a boat like the Swain 36? > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18644|18636|2008-10-27 06:50:31|sae140|Re: DIY Solid Fuel Marine Heater|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 10:26:08PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > I've just uploaded details of a Solid Fuel Marine Heater - which is > > more suited to coal than wood - into the \Files section. > > Interesting design, Colin. Any thoughts on how much something like that > might cost? I've given some thought to cruising the European canals, and > given the current price of, say, a Dickinson diesel stove ($800 or so > for a medium-sized one), this sounds like a pretty good option. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Hi Ben - no idea offhand of the cost - my guess would be not a lot: using mostly offcut steel and standard welding kit. Time would 'cost' more than materials. The reason I uploaded this stuff was that I stumbled across: http://www.bluemoment.com/simplestove.html where the guy talks about using a 12" length of 4" x 4" box-section, which seemed absurdly small to me - so I searched around and came up with the design I posted. Seems 4" isn't so crazy after all, although 6" is probably right for a live-aboard. Using coal means it's a lot more complicated than a simple wood-burner of course, because of the need for a grate and a riddling mechanism. I'm sure it could be improved upon - a removable tray/ box to contain the ash would be one thing I'd add. Great pity we don't have the kind of driftwood to be found off Canada's shores ! Colin| 18645|18641|2008-10-27 07:51:51|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gaff Rig|On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 08:11:22AM -0000, Gerrit wrote: > Hello all > > Im looking for the cheapest and simplest way to build my ship and Im a > lover of the gaff cutter too. So Im thinking about the possibility of > a gaff rig on my Swain 36. If you're looking for cheap and simple, you might want to consider a junk rig as well. I haven't built one (although I'm considering redoing Ulysses as a junk rig at some point), but I've sailed on one, and was impressed. No winches there, either. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18646|18636|2008-10-27 08:09:19|Ben Okopnik|Re: DIY Solid Fuel Marine Heater|On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:50:28AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 10:26:08PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > I've just uploaded details of a Solid Fuel Marine Heater - which is > > > more suited to coal than wood - into the \Files section. > > > > Interesting design, Colin. Any thoughts on how much something like that > > might cost? I've given some thought to cruising the European canals, and > > given the current price of, say, a Dickinson diesel stove ($800 or so > > for a medium-sized one), this sounds like a pretty good option. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > Hi Ben - no idea offhand of the cost - my guess would be not a lot: > using mostly offcut steel and standard welding kit. Time would 'cost' > more than materials. The way it looked like to me is maybe a hundred bucks in materials (scrounged stainless, store-bought welding supplies and hardware) and lots of labor; possibly a good bit cheaper than looking for something used commercially. Although there's some interesting stuff available on eBay: http://tinyurl.com/6oxtwz A tent stove that burns coal, wood, diesel, or kerosene. > The reason I uploaded this stuff was that I stumbled across: > http://www.bluemoment.com/simplestove.html where the guy talks about > using a 12" length of 4" x 4" box-section, which seemed absurdly small > to me - so I searched around and came up with the design I posted. > Seems 4" isn't so crazy after all, although 6" is probably right for a > live-aboard. I think you're right; it's a nice alternative. I've heated my boat with propane (it was that or electricity, and I just wasn't going to pay for gas to run my generator every day for the entire winter!), and it was unpleasantly wet. I had to stick up my canvas sunshade under the main hatch to prevent constant dripping, and _drain_ it before I went to bed. > Great pity we don't have the kind of driftwood to be found off > Canada's shores ! Heh. If it wasn't for the weather, Canada would have some of the finest cruising in the world. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18647|18641|2008-10-27 08:24:26|Gerrit|Re: Gaff Rig|Hello Ben I have a eye on that too. But it will not be possible to use a tabernacle I think and I worry a bit about structural stability, becaue the mast from the Swain is standing on a bulkhead and maybe its needed therefore, because Brent already said that for example a changin to raised deck could give a problem with distortion from the structures.... So in my mind is, if using a gaff rigg in a tabernacle, so I wont change the position of the mast... Any ideas about that all?? Greets, Gerrit ....--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 08:11:22AM -0000, Gerrit wrote: > > Hello all > > > > Im looking for the cheapest and simplest way to build my ship and Im a > > lover of the gaff cutter too. So Im thinking about the possibility of > > a gaff rig on my Swain 36. > > If you're looking for cheap and simple, you might want to consider a > junk rig as well. I haven't built one (although I'm considering redoing > Ulysses as a junk rig at some point), but I've sailed on one, and was > impressed. No winches there, either. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18648|18641|2008-10-27 08:42:24|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gaff Rig|On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:24:22PM -0000, Gerrit wrote: > Hello Ben > > I have a eye on that too. But it will not be possible to use a > tabernacle I think and I worry a bit about structural stability, > becaue the mast from the Swain is standing on a bulkhead and maybe its > needed therefore, because Brent already said that for example a > changin to raised deck could give a problem with distortion from the > structures.... So in my mind is, if using a gaff rigg in a > tabernacle, so I wont change the position of the mast... You're probably right about that; I think that a junk would require repositioning the mast. I have seen junk rigs in tabernacles, so that's not much of an issue, but having the mast elsewhere would definitely need Brent's approval. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18649|18649|2008-10-27 09:24:26|Gerrit|Diesel Motors|Hi there Another question is a possible diesel from a car. I was looking for Mercedes but to marinise this you need expensive parts and the engine is already quite old, so that it would be a possible problem to get parts for that in maybe 10-15 years... What engines are good for the Swain 36? I prefer a not too big one around 50-60HP (VW, Ford, Peugeot, Toyota???) really is more than enough for my needs (Im a sailor!). He should be cheap to buy and to marinise too and of course parts should be to get mostly all over the world. By the way im from switzerland/europe... Thamk you for informations| 18650|18649|2008-10-27 09:57:50|Carl Anderson|Re: Diesel Motors|Gerrit, Auto diesel engines are not designed for the continuous use that a marine engine is. You would be better starting with an industrial engine IMHO. We used an ISUZU industrial that has been marinized in BC. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Gerrit wrote: > > > Hi there > > Another question is a possible diesel from a car. I was looking for > Mercedes but to marinise this you need expensive parts and the engine > is already quite old, so that it would be a possible problem to get > parts for that in maybe 10-15 years... > > What engines are good for the Swain 36? I prefer a not too big one > around 50-60HP (VW, Ford, Peugeot, Toyota???) really is more than > enough for my needs (Im a sailor!). > > He should be cheap to buy and to marinise too and of course parts > should be to get mostly all over the world. By the way im from > switzerland/europe... > > Thamk you for informations > > | 18651|18649|2008-10-27 13:57:49|Paul Cotter|Re: Diesel Motors|There was a long thread on this site regarding automobile diesels about 2 years ago. If I recall, a few folks were working on, or had modified, VW engines for the bigger Swains. Check through the archive, there was a lot of information in those postings. Cheers Paul On Oct 27, 2008, at 5:24 AM, Gerrit wrote: > Hi there > > Another question is a possible diesel from a car. I was looking for > Mercedes but to marinise this you need expensive parts and the engine > is already quite old, so that it would be a possible problem to get > parts for that in maybe 10-15 years... > > What engines are good for the Swain 36? I prefer a not too big one > around 50-60HP (VW, Ford, Peugeot, Toyota???) really is more than > enough for my needs (Im a sailor!). > > He should be cheap to buy and to marinise too and of course parts > should be to get mostly all over the world. By the way im from > switzerland/europe... > > Thamk you for informations > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18652|18649|2008-10-27 14:59:09|Paul Wilson|Re: Diesel Motors|There is an excellent book called Marine Conversions by Nigel Warren. Its old and out of print but well worth getting (Amazon?) if you are considering a conversion. Boatdesign.net also has a thread on conversions in their forum section. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerrit Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 1:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors Hi there Another question is a possible diesel from a car. I was looking for Mercedes but to marinise this you need expensive parts and the engine is already quite old, so that it would be a possible problem to get parts for that in maybe 10-15 years... What engines are good for the Swain 36? I prefer a not too big one around 50-60HP (VW, Ford, Peugeot, Toyota???) really is more than enough for my needs (Im a sailor!). He should be cheap to buy and to marinise too and of course parts should be to get mostly all over the world. By the way im from switzerland/europe... Thamk you for informations No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1747 - Release Date: 10/26/2008 7:53 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18653|18641|2008-10-27 14:59:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Gaff Rig|Something to consider.. If you want to go cheap and save money, you may have trouble finding used sails that fit if you go to a Gaff rig. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerrit Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 8:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Gaff Rig Hello all Im looking for the cheapest and simplest way to build my ship and Im a lover of the gaff cutter too. So Im thinking about the possibility of a gaff rig on my Swain 36. Did anybody build this? I mean a more modern gaff rig, not too heavy with a light and shorter gaff than traditional boats have. I would like to have a selftending reefable jib and a furled sail on the bow oitside. Topsails for light wind would be good. The mast could be lower and stand in a tabernacle. I believe it would be a very fine option for a cruising boat and does not need any winches too. Who has an idea or any information specially for a boat like the Swain 36? Greetings, Gerrit No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1747 - Release Date: 10/26/2008 9:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18654|18649|2008-10-27 18:25:18|Gordon Schnell|Re: Diesel Motors|VW makes an excellent diesel in "naturally aspirated" and turbo ranging in HP from 50 HP for the 1.5litre NA to 90+HP for the 1.9 turbo. Parts are available worldwide. If you use the skeg as your "radiator" and run "dry exhasut", marinizing is not required. A US boat manufacturer, Pathfinder, used them for years, although they saltwater cooled them and marinizing was a requirement. Gord Paul Wilson wrote: > > There is an excellent book called Marine Conversions by Nigel Warren. Its > old and out of print but well worth getting (Amazon?) if you are > considering > a conversion. Boatdesign.net also has a thread on conversions in their > forum section. > > Cheers, > Paul > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups. com ] On > Behalf Of Gerrit > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 1:24 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors > > Hi there > > Another question is a possible diesel from a car. I was looking for > Mercedes but to marinise this you need expensive parts and the engine > is already quite old, so that it would be a possible problem to get > parts for that in maybe 10-15 years... > > What engines are good for the Swain 36? I prefer a not too big one > around 50-60HP (VW, Ford, Peugeot, Toyota???) really is more than > enough for my needs (Im a sailor!). > > He should be cheap to buy and to marinise too and of course parts > should be to get mostly all over the world. By the way im from > switzerland/ europe... > > Thamk you for informations > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1747 - Release Date: 10/26/2008 > 7:53 PM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18655|18655|2008-10-27 18:39:44|prairiemaidca|V.W. diesel|Hi All: If anyone is looking for a V.W. diesel, I've got a fully rebuilt one in my shop. No computers,turbos etc. Just add fuel and a 12volt power supply to the pump and starter and away it goes. If anyone is interested let me know and I'll give you the details. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 18656|18655|2008-10-27 19:02:51|martin demers|Re: V.W. diesel|Hi, I have a few old VW diesel engine, so I was interested into marinising one for my boat, some are sold already marinised by Pathfinder marine. But I was warn by many boat owners that they were not meant to be used ina boat and that they dont last. That is other people opinions, I never tried one myself! Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: mforster@... > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:39:37 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] V.W. diesel > > > Hi All: If anyone is looking for a V.W. diesel, I've got a fully > rebuilt one in my shop. No computers,turbos etc. Just add fuel and a > 12volt power supply to the pump and starter and away it goes. If > anyone is interested let me know and I'll give you the details. > Martin (Prairie Maid) > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18657|18655|2008-10-27 19:14:48|Carl Anderson|self-steering vane|I'm wondering if I can get some ideas on how to attach the material (cloth) to the vane frame. thanks, Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com| 18658|18649|2008-10-27 21:57:43|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|Is there an after cooler on that VW engine? Or rather, if we use and engine with an after cooler, do we bother switching it to a marine after cooler; do away with it, or flow engine room intake air over it? What have you seen done? Thanks Doug J Tulsa OK -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Schnell To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 5:25 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors VW makes an excellent diesel in "naturally aspirated" and turbo ranging in HP from 50 HP for the 1.5litre NA to 90+HP for the 1.9 turbo. Parts are available worldwide. If you use the skeg as your "radiator" and run "dry exhasut", marinizing is not required. A US boat manufacturer, Pathfinder, used them for years, although they saltwater cooled them and marinizing was a requirement. Gord Paul Wilson wrote: > > There is an excellent book called Marine Conversions by Nigel Warren. Its > old and out of print but well worth getting (Amazon?) if you are > considering > a conversion. Boatdesign.net also has a thread on conversions in their > forum section. > > Cheers, > Paul > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups. com ] On > Behalf Of Gerrit > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 1:24 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors > > Hi there > > Another question is a possible diesel from a car. I was looking for > Mercedes but to marinise this you need expensive parts and the engine > is already quite old, so that it would be a possible problem to get > parts for that in maybe 10-15 years... > > What engines are good for the Swain 36? I prefer a not too big one > around 50-60HP (VW, Ford, Peugeot, Toyota???) really is more than > enough for my needs (Im a sailor!). > > He should be cheap to buy and to marinise too and of course parts > should be to get mostly all over the world. By the way im from > switzerland/ europe... > > Thamk you for informations > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1747 - Release Date: 10/26/2008 > 7:53 PM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18659|18655|2008-10-27 22:23:04|Gordon Schnell|Re: V.W. diesel|I work with a fellow who had one in his 36' glass boat. It was where I first saw one applied to marine. He liked it so much that when he bought his next boat (last year), he looked for and bought another boat with the VW engine. They are definitely tough enough for marine, they run very smooth and quiet, parts are relatively inexpensive. He swears by them. Gord martin demers wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I have a few old VW diesel engine, so I was interested into marinising > one for my boat, some are sold already marinised by Pathfinder marine. > But I was warn by many boat owners that they were not meant to be used > ina boat and that they dont last. That is other people opinions, I > never tried one myself! > > Martin. > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > From: mforster@platinum. ca > > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:39:37 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] V.W. diesel > > > > > > Hi All: If anyone is looking for a V.W. diesel, I've got a fully > > rebuilt one in my shop. No computers,turbos etc. Just add fuel and a > > 12volt power supply to the pump and starter and away it goes. If > > anyone is interested let me know and I'll give you the details. > > Martin (Prairie Maid) > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > | 18660|18649|2008-10-27 22:30:14|Gordon Schnell|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|I have a 1.6L Turbo....no "after cooler"/ intercooler is used. I have decided, however, to use the engine w/o the turbo...don't think I'll need the HP and want to avoid the extra heat in the engine bay. I am drawing combustion air in from the cockpit combings, thru a "water-knockout" and filter, straight into the engine bay. The engine then picks the air up from the engine bay and "hopefully" removes a lot of the heat. Comments?? Gord djackson99@... wrote: > > Is there an after cooler on that VW engine? > > Or rather, if we use and engine with an after cooler, do we bother > switching it to a marine after cooler; do away with it, or flow engine > room intake air over it? > > What have you seen done? > > Thanks > Doug J > Tulsa OK > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gordon Schnell > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 5:25 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors > > VW makes an excellent diesel in "naturally aspirated" and turbo ranging > > in HP from 50 HP for the 1.5litre NA to 90+HP for the 1.9 turbo. Parts > > are available worldwide. If you use the skeg as your "radiator" and run > > "dry exhasut", marinizing is not required. A US boat manufacturer, > > Pathfinder, used them for years, although they saltwater cooled them and > > marinizing was a requirement. > > Gord > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > There is an excellent book called Marine Conversions by Nigel > Warren. Its > > > old and out of print but well worth getting (Amazon?) if you are > > > considering > > > a conversion. Boatdesign.net also has a thread on conversions in their > > > forum section. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups. com ] On > > > Behalf Of Gerrit > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 1:24 AM > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors > > > > > > Hi there > > > > > > Another question is a possible diesel from a car. I was looking for > > > Mercedes but to marinise this you need expensive parts and the engine > > > is already quite old, so that it would be a possible problem to get > > > parts for that in maybe 10-15 years... > > > > > > What engines are good for the Swain 36? I prefer a not too big one > > > around 50-60HP (VW, Ford, Peugeot, Toyota???) really is more than > > > enough for my needs (Im a sailor!). > > > > > > He should be cheap to buy and to marinise too and of course parts > > > should be to get mostly all over the world. By the way im from > > > switzerland/ europe... > > > > > > Thamk you for informations > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1747 - Release Date: > 10/26/2008 > > > 7:53 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18661|18641|2008-10-27 23:06:27|Paul Thompson|Re: Gaff Rig|On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:24 AM, Gerrit wrote: > Hello Ben > > I have a eye on that too. But it will not be possible to use a > tabernacle I think and I worry a bit about structural stability, > becaue the mast from the Swain is standing on a bulkhead and maybe its Tabernacles with free standing rigs are are not a problem at all. The Dutch have done it since ancient times as have the Chinese. There are quite a number of Junk rigged boats out there with tabernacles right now (both big and small), just look around. It looks like I will be giving La Chica (Junk rigged schooner, 32ft 18000lbs disp.) tabernacles as well in the very near future. Was not intending to but recently canal/river fever has hit and it is looking increasingly attractive to me. Regards, Paul Thompson| 18662|18641|2008-10-27 23:20:58|Paul Thompson|Re: Gaff Rig|> > If you're looking for cheap and simple, you might want to consider a > junk rig as well. I haven't built one (although I'm considering redoing > Ulysses as a junk rig at some point), but I've sailed on one, and was > impressed. No winches there, either. > Ben, Should you need assistance with converting Ulysses to Junk Rig, please do not hesitate to ask (possibly off list as Brent don't like em :-) I have done a few conversions, my own included Currently I am about to start designing a new Junk Rig for.Carl Bostek's SV Aphrodite (http://www.svaphrodite.bostekanesthesia.com/) a boat not (I think) all that different from yours. She actually has a Gallant Rig currently (same as Seers boat has. Know how his doing?). However it has given a number of problems and Carl now wants to go to the Junk Rig. Regards, Paul Thompson| 18663|18649|2008-10-28 04:05:22|T & D Cain|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|Aftercooling and intercooling are terms which are usually only confused or exchanged by car salesmen!!, Inter must look or feel better than after? Perhaps the selling point is an abstract thing. Perhaps the whole process flow was considered and the compression stroke of the piston was the second stage? In compressor speak, an intercooler is placed between stages of compression, ie. Between LP and HP or intermediate stages before the HP stage, but all in the one compressor unit. Condensate is usually produced on the surfaces of the intercoolers, unless dry gas was indrawn to the first stage. I suppose the automotive engineers may be forgiven if they were involved since they could have stated that there was a second stage of compression inside the cylinder. An aftercooler is what is in most auto installations --- It takes some of the heat (due to compression) from the gas flow after the single stage turbo-compressor, and before it is used in the intake manifold. This improves the mass flow of oxygen so that more power can be developed per unit displacement. Aftercooling on single stage compressors with a significant inlet to outlet pressure ratio will usually produce condensate (if it's air, the water is condensed and needs to be removed). The ratio involved in automotive diesel or petrol engines is so low and the temperatures reached are still relatively so high, that it is not necessary to remove condensate, in fact it is of some benefit in the combustion process. Terry (putting on steel helmet in anticipation?) -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Tuesday, 28 October 2008 11:28 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors - Aftercooler [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18664|18641|2008-10-28 05:00:47|peter_d_wiley|Re: Gaff Rig|As for tabernacles and junk rigs, it most certainly is possible to do so, because Tom Colvin's designs have used them for many years. Look at the photos of come of the Gazelles for sale around the place. Brent doesn't like Tom's designs either, but that's IMO a combination of ignorance, lack of education and outright prejudice. There have been over 700 Gazelles built so far and that's only one of Tom's designs. I'm certain that if you do go junk rig, you'll need to move the mast, and you'll need to calculate how far to move it. You may need to do the same for a gaff rig, but maybe not as it's not a balanced lug the way a junk rig is. I do know that on Tom's junk schooners, the junk masts are a fair way forward of where they are for a gaff schooner rig on the same hull. While I like junk rigs too, in your position you're probably safer with the gaff rig. Keep in mind that if you need to screw overmuch with the design to get what you want, you may be looking at the wrong design. PDW > I have a eye on that too. But it will not be possible to use a > tabernacle I think and I worry a bit about structural stability, > becaue the mast from the Swain is standing on a bulkhead and maybe its > needed therefore, because Brent already said that for example a > changin to raised deck could give a problem with distortion from the > structures.... So in my mind is, if using a gaff rigg in a > tabernacle, so I wont change the position of the mast... > > Any ideas about that all?? > > Greets, Gerrit > > > ....--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 08:11:22AM -0000, Gerrit wrote: > > > Hello all > > > > > > Im looking for the cheapest and simplest way to build my ship and Im a > > > lover of the gaff cutter too. So Im thinking about the possibility of > > > a gaff rig on my Swain 36. > > > > If you're looking for cheap and simple, you might want to consider a > > junk rig as well. I haven't built one (although I'm considering redoing > > Ulysses as a junk rig at some point), but I've sailed on one, and was > > impressed. No winches there, either. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 18665|18641|2008-10-28 05:03:33|ANDREW AIREY|Gaff Rig|Don't discount winches.If you aren't counterweighting your mast they give a measure of control and safety.One of the more famous cruising blokes from way back was asked what was the most important innovation for short handed cruising boats - I think the questionner was expecting him to say SATNAV.He just said self tailing winches.I was crewing on a 50ft gaff rigged Dutch barge last year - Dutch barges have relatively short and light gaffs - and it was still a bit off a struggle for 2 of us to get the mainsail up without winch assistance.Probably just goes to show that I'm not fit cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18666|18641|2008-10-28 05:40:51|Gerrit|Gaff Rig|Thank you already for the reply I think about different possibilities for the ship in every way, but I will not change for the design....I like that ship very much and the service, including all the possible informations in this group seems to be very good, so that I will get an answer for any question by Brent himself (best way!), or some other competent members if needed. By the way, a 50feet boat with its giant sails is not to compare with a 36feet.. Moving the mast for a gaff rig is not always needed! You can take a look at Nick Skeates Wylo II for example. He designed gaff, bermudan and junk rig for his design. The mast position for the gaff and the bermudan are the same! Maybe it should be well calculated for the size and position of the single sails in that rig. I will wait for the plans which should be here soon and take a look at Brents possibilities to keep the bermudan rig cheap and easy build and singlehanded as possible. Then maybe I will ask Brent himself about his meaning for a possible gaff rig. The costs are a lot different, because you can build everything for the gaff rig, inclueded the sails relatively easy yourself. Have not to take them by a professional sailmaker.... So we will see.... Greets| 18667|18649|2008-10-28 07:09:20|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|You need to check whether the engine will run properly without the turbo as fitting it may have involved a change to the head design - usually to reduce the compression ratio cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18668|18655|2008-10-28 07:30:29|martin demers|Re: V.W. diesel|If it is proven that they are strong enough I would be glad to use the one I have on my boat, they are so easy to fix and parts are available anywhere. Maybe the people who had problems with them did something wrong, they pushed it to much at too high RPM or something like that, maybe they didn't had the proper transmission ratio. About the transmission; how do you mate the VW engine to a transmission? and wich transmission should someone use? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: gschnell@... > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:23:03 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] V.W. diesel > > > I work with a fellow who had one in his 36' glass boat. It was where I > first saw one applied to marine. He liked it so much that when he bought > his next boat (last year), he looked for and bought another boat with > the VW engine. They are definitely tough enough for marine, they run > very smooth and quiet, parts are relatively inexpensive. He swears by them. > Gord > > martin demers wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I have a few old VW diesel engine, so I was interested into marinising >> one for my boat, some are sold already marinised by Pathfinder marine. >> But I was warn by many boat owners that they were not meant to be used >> ina boat and that they dont last. That is other people opinions, I >> never tried one myself! >> >> Martin. >> ____________ _________ _________ __ >>> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> >>> From: mforster@platinum. ca >>> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:39:37 +0000 >>> Subject: [origamiboats] V.W. diesel >>> >>> >>> Hi All: If anyone is looking for a V.W. diesel, I've got a fully >>> rebuilt one in my shop. No computers,turbos etc. Just add fuel and a >>> 12volt power supply to the pump and starter and away it goes. If >>> anyone is interested let me know and I'll give you the details. >>> Martin (Prairie Maid) >>> >>> >>> >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ >> >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18669|18649|2008-10-28 09:44:33|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|I should have gone to bed last night.? Instead I researched intercoolers vs aftercoolers just to learn what you eloquently describe below. So do you have an opinion about converting an air-to-air aftercooler to air-to-water? --Doug J? ? -----Original Message----- From: T & D Cain To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 3:05 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors - Aftercooler Aftercooling and intercooling are terms which are usually only confused or exchanged by car salesmen!!, Inter must look or feel better than after? Perhaps the selling point is an abstract thing. Perhaps the whole process flow was considered and the compression stroke of the piston was the second stage? In compressor speak, an intercooler is placed between stages of compression, ie. Between LP and HP or intermediate stages before the HP stage, but all in the one compressor unit. Condensate is usually produced on the surfaces of the intercoolers, unless dry gas was indrawn to the first stage. I suppose the automotive engineers may be forgiven if they were involved since they could have stated that there was a second stage of compression inside the cylinder. An aftercooler is what is in most auto installations --- It takes some of the heat (due to compression) from the gas flow after the single stage turbo-compressor, and before it is used in the intake manifold. This improves the mass flow of oxygen so that more power can be developed per unit displacement. Aftercooling on single stage compressors with a significant inlet to outlet pressure ratio will usually produce condensate (if it's air, the water is condensed and needs to be removed). The ratio involved in automotive diesel or petrol engines is so low and the temperatures reached are still relatively so high, that it is not necessary to remove condensate, in fact it is of some benefit in the combustion process. Terry (putting on steel helmet in anticipation?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18670|18641|2008-10-28 14:53:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gaff Rig|On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 04:06:26PM +1300, Paul Thompson wrote: > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:24 AM, Gerrit wrote: > > Hello Ben > > > > I have a eye on that too. But it will not be possible to use a > > tabernacle I think and I worry a bit about structural stability, > > becaue the mast from the Swain is standing on a bulkhead and maybe its > > Tabernacles with free standing rigs are are not a problem at all. The > Dutch have done it since ancient times as have the Chinese. There are > quite a number of Junk rigged boats out there with tabernacles right > now (both big and small), just look around. It looks like I will be > giving La Chica (Junk rigged schooner, 32ft 18000lbs disp.) > tabernacles as well in the very near future. Was not intending to but > recently canal/river fever has hit and it is looking increasingly > attractive to me. Funny thing - that's why my wife and I have been taking aspirin lately. :) Since the temperatures aren't going down, that looks like the plan for the future. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18671|18655|2008-10-28 15:02:59|kingsknight4life|Re: self-steering vane|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I'm wondering if I can get some ideas on how to attach the material > (cloth) to the vane frame. > > thanks, > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > Nver tried it but lasahing or velcro perhaps? Rowland| 18672|18655|2008-10-28 15:40:01|Paul Wilson|Re: self-steering vane|> I'm wondering if I can get some ideas on how to attach the material > (cloth) to the vane frame. > Carl, I have eyelets in each corner of the cloth and have used shoe-string, tie-wraps, and braided nylon fishing line (tuna leader). They have all worked fine. I remove it when in port so it's not destroyed by the sun so anything quick and easy to use is fine with me. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18673|18641|2008-10-28 16:03:25|Paul Wilson|Re: Gaff Rig|I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little confusion. The kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the more modern versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by Blondie Hasler. Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. This is probably why it's more popular. My total experience with a junk rig is about a week's sailing. It was certainly easy to handle, however limited in sail combinations due the sail area restriction with the headsails and short masts. Personally, I spend too much time going to windward to want a Junk rig. Now don't go e-mailing me saying how they can sail to windward..I know they can. After having only 8 days downwind from Canada to Fiji, I want to be able to point an honest 45 degrees. Interestingly, I have rarely seen junk rigs sailing offshore in the Pacific. I don't think I have seen one for years, now. I think the real motivation for its popularity was economics, but with all the used rigging and sails available, you can come up with a conventional rig much cheaper now than in the past. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter_d_wiley Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig As for tabernacles and junk rigs, it most certainly is possible to do so, because Tom Colvin's designs have used them for many years. Look at the photos of come of the Gazelles for sale around the place. Brent doesn't like Tom's designs either, but that's IMO a combination of ignorance, lack of education and outright prejudice. There have been over 700 Gazelles built so far and that's only one of Tom's designs. I'm certain that if you do go junk rig, you'll need to move the mast, and you'll need to calculate how far to move it. You may need to do the same for a gaff rig, but maybe not as it's not a balanced lug the way a junk rig is. I do know that on Tom's junk schooners, the junk masts are a fair way forward of where they are for a gaff schooner rig on the same hull. While I like junk rigs too, in your position you're probably safer with the gaff rig. Keep in mind that if you need to screw overmuch with the design to get what you want, you may be looking at the wrong design. PDW > I have a eye on that too. But it will not be possible to use a > tabernacle I think and I worry a bit about structural stability, > becaue the mast from the Swain is standing on a bulkhead and maybe its > needed therefore, because Brent already said that for example a > changin to raised deck could give a problem with distortion from the > structures.... So in my mind is, if using a gaff rigg in a > tabernacle, so I wont change the position of the mast... > > Any ideas about that all?? > > Greets, Gerrit > > > ....--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 08:11:22AM -0000, Gerrit wrote: > > > Hello all > > > > > > Im looking for the cheapest and simplest way to build my ship and Im a > > > lover of the gaff cutter too. So Im thinking about the possibility of > > > a gaff rig on my Swain 36. > > > > If you're looking for cheap and simple, you might want to consider a > > junk rig as well. I haven't built one (although I'm considering redoing > > Ulysses as a junk rig at some point), but I've sailed on one, and was > > impressed. No winches there, either. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.4/1751 - Release Date: 10/27/2008 10:44 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18674|18649|2008-10-28 19:07:21|Gordon Schnell|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|Terry OK, you can take off the steel helmet. You asked if there was an aftercooler and if it would need to be "marinized". Explain to me.....where would it be placed, in the combustion stream? Why would we need it? Would it be valuable in the marine application? Is there any reason why I would want to consider it for my VW diesel marine application?? Gord T & D Cain wrote: > > Aftercooling and intercooling are terms which are usually only confused or > exchanged by car salesmen!!, Inter must look or feel better than after? > > Perhaps the selling point is an abstract thing. Perhaps the whole process > flow was considered and the compression stroke of the piston was the > second > stage? > > In compressor speak, an intercooler is placed between stages of > compression, > ie. Between LP and HP or intermediate stages before the HP stage, but > all in > the one compressor unit. > > Condensate is usually produced on the surfaces of the intercoolers, unless > dry gas was indrawn to the first stage. > > I suppose the automotive engineers may be forgiven if they were involved > since they could have stated that there was a second stage of compression > inside the cylinder. > > An aftercooler is what is in most auto installations --- It takes some of > the heat (due to compression) from the gas flow after the single stage > turbo-compressor, and before it is used in the intake manifold. This > improves the mass flow of oxygen so that more power can be developed per > unit displacement. > > Aftercooling on single stage compressors with a significant inlet to > outlet > pressure ratio will usually produce condensate (if it's air, the water is > condensed and needs to be removed). > > The ratio involved in automotive diesel or petrol engines is so low > and the > temperatures reached are still relatively so high, that it is not > necessary > to remove condensate, in fact it is of some benefit in the combustion > process. > > Terry (putting on steel helmet in anticipation?) > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of djackson99@... > Sent: Tuesday, 28 October 2008 11:28 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors - Aftercooler > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18675|18649|2008-10-28 19:14:06|Gordon Schnell|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|I checked that out. VW use the same block, head and injection system with or w/o turbo. All the sources I have found consider removing the turbo to be fine (but stupid...why "throw away HP??) Apparently, adding a turbo is as simple as changing the exhaust header, which I did. Should the engine show indications of needing the turbo, its' about 2 hrs. to add it. Don't even need to change the exhaust routing. Gord Gord ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > You need to check whether the engine will run properly without the > turbo as fitting it may have involved a change to the head design - > usually to reduce the compression ratio > cheers > andy airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger > .yahoo.com > > | 18676|18655|2008-10-28 19:32:01|Gordon Schnell|Re: V.W. diesel|Martin I chose a Velvet Drive marine transmission. 1. Drill the VW flywheel to accomodate a "flex plate" (female spline that matches the VD input shaft. 2. Bolt a 1" thick aluminum plate (same size as VW bellhousing) to the input face of the Velvet Drive. 3. Calculated the insertion depth for the input shaft of the Velvet Drive to the flexplate. 4. Slice off the VW bell housing to that depth. (Use a "cutoff" disc) 5. Slide the Velvet Drive into place and aligned it. 6. Welded the aluminum plate to the bell housing and then bolted thru the Aluminum plate into the VW block. Note: VW does some nasty things to the aluminum they cast the bellhousing from. Welding it requires some perserverance, which is why I thru bolted to the engine block, as well. (Insurance). Gord martin demers wrote: > > > > If it is proven that they are strong enough I would be glad to use the > one I have on my boat, they are so easy to fix and parts are available > anywhere. Maybe the people who had problems with them did something > wrong, they pushed it to much at too high RPM or something like that, > maybe they didn't had the proper transmission ratio. > About the transmission; how do you mate the VW engine to a > transmission? and wich transmission should someone use? > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: gschnell@... > > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:23:03 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] V.W. diesel > > > > > > I work with a fellow who had one in his 36' glass boat. It was where I > > first saw one applied to marine. He liked it so much that when he bought > > his next boat (last year), he looked for and bought another boat with > > the VW engine. They are definitely tough enough for marine, they run > > very smooth and quiet, parts are relatively inexpensive. He swears > by them. > > Gord > > > > martin demers wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I have a few old VW diesel engine, so I was interested into marinising > >> one for my boat, some are sold already marinised by Pathfinder marine. > >> But I was warn by many boat owners that they were not meant to be used > >> ina boat and that they dont last. That is other people opinions, I > >> never tried one myself! > >> > >> Martin. > >> ____________ _________ _________ __ > >>> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> > >>> From: mforster@platinum. ca > >>> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:39:37 +0000 > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] V.W. diesel > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi All: If anyone is looking for a V.W. diesel, I've got a fully > >>> rebuilt one in my shop. No computers,turbos etc. Just add fuel and a > >>> 12volt power supply to the pump and starter and away it goes. If > >>> anyone is interested let me know and I'll give you the details. > >>> Martin (Prairie Maid) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > >> > >> > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > | 18677|18649|2008-10-28 19:36:12|Denis Buggy|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|dear Gord engines with turbos normally have a different fuel setting and injector nozzles to cope with entirely different circumstances . many have a wastegate valve to dump turbo pressure and also have a diaphragm sensor to regulate the fuel pump and prevent excess fuel during turbo lag which occurs when engine speed lowers and boost pressure falls and the pedal is to the metal. this is why most vehicles today have an electronic pump and common rail as the computer can do electronically 60,0000 times a second what a mechanical governor will never do in its lifetime . MR AIREY was correct when he said compression is lowered to cope with the changes involved , timing is also changed and fuel and timing change again if it is intercooler is used along with different valves and cooling . bolting and un bolting does not do the business required regards denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: Gordon Schnell To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 11:14 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler I checked that out. VW use the same block, head and injection system with or w/o turbo. All the sources I have found consider removing the turbo to be fine (but stupid...why "throw away HP??) Apparently, adding a turbo is as simple as changing the exhaust header, which I did. Should the engine show indications of needing the turbo, its' about 2 hrs. to add it. Don't even need to change the exhaust routing. Gord Gord ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > You need to check whether the engine will run properly without the > turbo as fitting it may have involved a change to the head design - > usually to reduce the compression ratio > cheers > andy airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger > .yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18678|18649|2008-10-29 03:36:22|T & D Cain|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|Doug J, If you were needing the best power the unit could deliver under the operating environment in question, the choice would be made after considering the initial setups and ongoing maintenance required. The air volumes for air/air cooling are quite large, and the downstream side of the cooling air needs to get outside and not simply heat the enginespace. This sometimes means noise and large openings which most would not want in a smallish boat.--- Works OK in autos since there is either movement or forced airflow and lots of free passage to outside. Water is good --- radiators do the job well as we know - but in a boat it's salt water, not coolant, and the matrix used in autos is not suitable for salt water. Raw water schemes start to get pricey and complex and there is also an ongoing maintenance issue. If you had a separate keel-cooling circuit, it would work fine and be no more drama than any other keel-cooling application. For yachts I think NA rather than turbo is best. If it's a power boat, there is already too much noise for me, but a bit more would hardly be noticed, so turbo-charged efficiency is sensible for those people. Cheers, Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18679|18649|2008-10-29 03:36:36|T & D Cain|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|Gordon, --- Actually I didn't ask that marinising question, my reply was to the group in general after someone else asked that question, I was just interested in the way the aftercooler and intercooler designations were swapped around! In your case , I corresponded with you a few years back when you made the decision on the VW, and you are perfectly correct in your choice of setup. There was also an exchange re the link to the VW paper presented to the SAE on the development of the turbo version of the VW engine I use (the NA Pirhana 1600 ex Hawker Siddeley). I just got a little carried away with the compressor bits having spent quite a bit of my previous working life very closely associated with all sorts from GHH 5500HP turbos down to oil-free recips..-they sort of get in to the blood. I noticed that Denis had concerns re the injection pump --- the aneroid fitted to turbo models modifies the injection volume curve only when there is positive manifold pressure, so up till the point where you need more power than the NA situation can deliver, you will be running up the curves shown in the SAE paper. There is useful power below that point. I must get that paper out and re-read. After the trouble of designing and manufacturing an oil adapter plate to allow remote filtering and oil cooling, I saw one of-the-shelf in a US site just last week!!! That's life. Terry (now just as hot without the helmet --- 36C and 80+ RH) , -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Schnell [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18680|18641|2008-10-29 04:16:04|peter_d_wiley|Gaff Rig|I'm planning on either a junk rig or a gaff rig (jury is still out on that one) and I'm going to have AT LEAST one good winch. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Don't discount winches.If you aren't counterweighting your mast they give a measure of control and safety.One of the more famous cruising blokes from way back was asked what was the most important innovation for short handed cruising boats - I think the questionner was expecting him to say SATNAV.He just said self tailing winches.I was crewing on a 50ft gaff rigged Dutch barge last year - Dutch barges have relatively short and light gaffs - and it was still a bit off a struggle for 2 of us to get the mainsail up without winch assistance.Probably just goes to show that I'm not fit > > cheers > andy airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 18681|18655|2008-10-29 04:31:52|peter_d_wiley|Re: V.W. diesel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > If it is proven that they are strong enough I would be glad to use the one I have on my boat, they are so easy to fix and parts are available anywhere. Maybe the people who had problems with them did something wrong, they pushed it to much at too high RPM or something like that, maybe they didn't had the proper transmission ratio. > About the transmission; how do you mate the VW engine to a transmission? and wich transmission should someone use? How I'm planning on doing it - keep in mind that I have a very comprehensive machine shop. I plan on using a Type 16A Chinese box with a 3.5:1 reduction mated to a Yanmar 3QM30H diesel - 30 HP at 2600 rpm. I already have a Type 06 one that I'm quite impressed with. These boxes have input and output flanges, they don't have to be coupled directly to a fly wheel or similar though you can with the correct adaptor plat. I'm using a Lovejoy coupling between the flywheel and box to absorb vibration. I'll mount both engine and box on a steel subframe and flex mount the subframe to the hull. This isn't much work really but you do need some welding and lathe work done if you can't do it yourself. The advantage is that you can use any engine. It's a lot simpler than mating a g/box with a SAE flange mount to an engine with a different SAE mount (or none). The Velvet Drive boxes mentioned elsewhere are excellent units, very robust, but around here they're also very expensive and IMO a much bigger pain to fit unless you have the correct bell housing adaptor. As I'm currently stuck in Sydney 1000 km away from my main workshop, I'm machining up a new input drive shaft for a marine g/box that was a direct mount to the end of an engine crank. The ONLY reason I'm doing this is that it gets me away from programming computers every so often. If I'm stuck here long enough I'll make up a pattern and get an adapter plate cast up, but nobody in their right mind would do this other than as an exercise in machining. Work out the engine rpm and the desired shaft rpm and then look for a box that gives you the reduction you want. Borg Warner (makers of the Velvet Drive) advise a rule of thumb of 100 shaft rpm per knot. A lot of people are running around with less reduction than that, and there's a lot of literature, but I like the big prop/slow revs approach myself. I personally steer clear of Hurth gearboxes, or at least go AT LEAST one size up from their recommendation. PDW| 18682|18641|2008-10-29 05:42:59|Trevor Curtis|Re: Gaff Rig|Aye, nothing beats a good wench. Regards Trev 2008/10/29 peter_d_wiley : > I'm planning on either a junk rig or a gaff rig (jury is still out on > that one) and I'm going to have AT LEAST one good winch. > > PDW | 18683|18649|2008-10-29 11:40:16|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|Thanks for the advice Terry.? Lots of air volume would be a problem.? I do plan to use a turbo even with the additional work. I'll use the engine hard on some days and I just hate to leave good HP laying on the table.? I'm not crazy about raw water cooling an aftercooler because of the damage that could be caused by a leak. So I was thinking about using a keel to cool oil and use that oil cool from the keel to cool an aftercooler. If i have room, I might be able to just build a metal box around the stock aftercooler or fork out the bucks for a marine aftercooler.? Is that workable?? Best Doug J Doug J, If you were needing the best power the unit could deliver under the operating environment in question, the choice would be made after considering the initial setups and ongoing maintenance required. The air volumes for air/air cooling are quite large, and the downstream side of the cooling air needs to get outside and not simply heat the enginespace. This sometimes means noise and large openings which most would not want in a smallish boat.--- Works OK in autos since there is either movement or forced airflow and lots of free passage to outside. Water is good --- radiators do the job well as we know - but in a boat it's salt water, not coolant, and the matrix used in autos is not suitable for salt water. Raw water schemes start to get pricey and complex and there is also an ongoing maintenance issue. If you had a separate keel-cooling circuit, it would work fine and be no more drama than any other keel-cooling application. For yachts I think NA rather than turbo is best. If it's a power boat, there is already too much noise for me, but a bit more would hardly be noticed, so turbo-charged efficiency is sensible for those people. Cheers, Terry ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18684|18655|2008-10-29 12:10:38|martin demers|Re: V.W. diesel|Hi Peter, Where do you buy those chinese gearboxes? I found their website but still cannot locate an American distributor. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: peter_d_wiley@... > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:31:45 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> If it is proven that they are strong enough I would be glad to use > the one I have on my boat, they are so easy to fix and parts are > available anywhere. Maybe the people who had problems with them did > something wrong, they pushed it to much at too high RPM or something > like that, maybe they didn't had the proper transmission ratio. >> About the transmission; how do you mate the VW engine to a > transmission? and wich transmission should someone use? > > How I'm planning on doing it - keep in mind that I have a very > comprehensive machine shop. > > I plan on using a Type 16A Chinese box with a 3.5:1 reduction mated to > a Yanmar 3QM30H diesel - 30 HP at 2600 rpm. I already have a Type 06 > one that I'm quite impressed with. These boxes have input and output > flanges, they don't have to be coupled directly to a fly wheel or > similar though you can with the correct adaptor plat. I'm using a > Lovejoy coupling between the flywheel and box to absorb vibration. > I'll mount both engine and box on a steel subframe and flex mount the > subframe to the hull. > > This isn't much work really but you do need some welding and lathe > work done if you can't do it yourself. The advantage is that you can > use any engine. It's a lot simpler than mating a g/box with a SAE > flange mount to an engine with a different SAE mount (or none). > > The Velvet Drive boxes mentioned elsewhere are excellent units, very > robust, but around here they're also very expensive and IMO a much > bigger pain to fit unless you have the correct bell housing adaptor. > > As I'm currently stuck in Sydney 1000 km away from my main workshop, > I'm machining up a new input drive shaft for a marine g/box that was a > direct mount to the end of an engine crank. The ONLY reason I'm doing > this is that it gets me away from programming computers every so > often. If I'm stuck here long enough I'll make up a pattern and get an > adapter plate cast up, but nobody in their right mind would do this > other than as an exercise in machining. > > Work out the engine rpm and the desired shaft rpm and then look for a > box that gives you the reduction you want. Borg Warner (makers of the > Velvet Drive) advise a rule of thumb of 100 shaft rpm per knot. A lot > of people are running around with less reduction than that, and > there's a lot of literature, but I like the big prop/slow revs > approach myself. > > I personally steer clear of Hurth gearboxes, or at least go AT LEAST > one size up from their recommendation. > > PDW > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18685|18685|2008-10-29 12:20:48|Carl Anderson|Boom for sale|I have a aluminum boom section for sale. It is 8" X 4" X 16' with .180 wall thickness. Also has track for internal slides. Located in Nanaimo. Asking $200. Here is link to a picture of it on our truck: http://www.moonflowerofmoab.com/images/PB170045.JPG Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com| 18686|18641|2008-10-29 13:01:44|sae140|Re: Gaff Rig|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little confusion. The > kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the more modern > versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by Blondie Hasler. > Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. This is > probably why it's more popular. > The differences between the Hasler-Mcleod and the Colvin sails are principally those of shape, and sheeting methods. Colvin's masts are not structurally stayed - the stays are employed principally as anti-whip devices. Tabernacles ARE possible with unstayed masts, as are the use of light-air foresails. Colin| 18687|18685|2008-10-29 13:01:44|Aaron Williams|Re: Boom for sale|Carl Is that the same as what you are using? Would you be willing to hold it till Jan. I hope to be driving a truck back to Alaska. Aaron --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: [origamiboats] Boom for sale To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 8:20 AM I have a aluminum boom section for sale. It is 8" X 4" X 16' with .180 wall thickness. Also has track for internal slides. Located in Nanaimo. Asking $200. Here is link to a picture of it on our truck: http://www.moonflow erofmoab. com/images/ PB170045. JPG Carl MoonflowerOfMoab. com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18688|18641|2008-10-29 13:19:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gaff Rig|On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 07:42:57PM +1000, Trevor Curtis wrote: > 2008/10/29 peter_d_wiley : > > I'm planning on either a junk rig or a gaff rig (jury is still out on > > that one) and I'm going to have AT LEAST one good winch. > > Aye, nothing beats a good wench. Especially if you go with the "AT LEAST one" philosophy. Although sometimes the interaction between those systems can have unpredictable (and, given Murphy's Law, usually negative) results... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18689|18685|2008-10-29 13:24:43|Carl Anderson|Re: Boom for sale|Aaron, Yes, its the left-over piece of what we used for M.O.M. It is at Evan's place in Nanaimo right now. If you want it I'll have him keep it until then. Carl Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Carl > Is that the same as what you are using? > Would you be willing to hold it till Jan. I hope to be driving a truck > back to Alaska. > Aaron > > --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Carl Anderson > wrote: > > From: Carl Anderson > > Subject: [origamiboats] Boom for sale > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 8:20 AM > > I have a aluminum boom section for sale. > It is 8" X 4" X 16' with .180 wall thickness. > Also has track for internal slides. > Located in Nanaimo. > Asking $200. > > Here is link to a picture of it on our truck: > > http://www.moonflow erofmoab. com/images/ PB170045. JPG > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18690|18641|2008-10-29 14:25:29|Paul Wilson|Re: Gaff Rig|Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was wrong with it, but I think the masts would have come down without the shrouds since the mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have been a case of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer though! :). Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:02 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little confusion. The > kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the more modern > versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by Blondie Hasler. > Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. This is > probably why it's more popular. > The differences between the Hasler-Mcleod and the Colvin sails are principally those of shape, and sheeting methods. Colvin's masts are not structurally stayed - the stays are employed principally as anti-whip devices. Tabernacles ARE possible with unstayed masts, as are the use of light-air foresails. Colin 28/2008 9:20 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18691|18655|2008-10-29 19:32:19|brentswain38|Re: self-steering vane|I just sewed nylon 1/2 inch webbing loops on the back corners , then tied those to the ends of the rods. Make sure your webbing is nylon and not polyprop. Poly floats , nylon doesn't. Poly gets eaten quickly by UV, nylon doesn't, especially black nylon. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > I'm wondering if I can get some ideas on how to attach the material > > (cloth) to the vane frame. > > > > thanks, > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > Nver tried it but lasahing or velcro perhaps? > Rowland > | 18692|18641|2008-10-29 19:41:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gaff Rig|On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 07:25:18AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was wrong with > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the shrouds since the > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have been a case > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer though! :). I sailed on a homebuilt junk while I was in the islands (I don't recall the designer - not Colvin - but it had everything I admire about good boat design, simplicity and strength both); it had no shrouds and its masts were in tabernacles. The owner told me that he had ordered the round, tapered aluminum extrusions from a street light pole manufacturer in North Carolina; it was very cheap by comparison to buying anything that was actually called a mast, and had plenty of strength for his purposes. Incidentally, it sailed to windward just fine. I was on the boat as race crew, and we came off quite well - as I recall, 2nd or 3rd place - against the field. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18693|18641|2008-10-29 19:44:31|brentswain38|Re: Gaff Rig|With either a gaff rig or a junk rig ,you can't simply buy used sails, hank them on, and go cruising . Gaff sails ,used, are rare and junk even rarer , meaning you have to build them from scratch . Junks have hundreds of feet of running rigging, and many blocks , battens etc, and are anything but cheap or simple. They don't have anywhere near the windward performance of marconi , especially gaff. A friend ,who left BC for Mexico several years ago ,was a great fan of his junk rig. He is finally admitting that the only way to get his 40 footer to go to windward is by 80 horsepower diesel. I see absolutely no advantage, cost or simplicity wise, in a gaff or junk rig. Where are the great savings? They also tend to eat themselves with chaffe on a long pasgae. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 08:11:22AM -0000, Gerrit wrote: > > Hello all > > > > Im looking for the cheapest and simplest way to build my ship and Im a > > lover of the gaff cutter too. So Im thinking about the possibility of > > a gaff rig on my Swain 36. > > If you're looking for cheap and simple, you might want to consider a > junk rig as well. I haven't built one (although I'm considering redoing > Ulysses as a junk rig at some point), but I've sailed on one, and was > impressed. No winches there, either. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 18694|18694|2008-10-29 19:52:49|brentswain38|Cleaning fuel tanks|A friend recently cleaned the slime coat off his diesel tanks after many years use. I think that if one makes a routine of giving your tanks a good dose of biobor or similar diesel bug killer every fall and spring , you will prorbaly never need to clean your diesel tank. With the end of driving season, oil prices are now at their anual low, a good time to top the tanks up and store whatever you can, before heating season and rising oil prices. Another good time to top up is spring, the end of heating season and before the start of driving season. Give her a good dose of biobor, or equivalent diesel bug killer. Brent| 18695|18554|2008-10-29 19:54:29|brentswain38|Re: home hardwar boat paint|I haven't noticed any diference. I hear some take the paint out of the same vats , put marine on one and raise the price. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > I know that, but is the Fisherman's boat paint similar to Tremclad and those kind of exterior paints or is it different and made especially for boats? > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:42:44 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: home hardwar boat paint > > > > > > I've found tremclad to be just a common oil based exterior enamel, no > > different from any other one. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Is it better than Tremclad? > >> > >> > >> Martin. > >> ________________________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> From: brentswain38@ > >>> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:10:06 +0000 > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: home hardwar boat paint > >>> > >>> > >>> I've seen it in white and green. I have used the white, some with tint > >>> in it, for decades. > >>> Brent > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > >>>> > >>>> The stuuf is called Fisherman's Paint in Courtenay they only have > >>>> gray, blue and white it's twenty bucks a gallon. it's on my boat > > which > >>>> isn't yet in the water so i can atest to it's reliablity but brent > >>>> says he uses it above the waterline. It's not for below the waterline > >>>> says on the can. > >>>> > >>>>> hi, > >>>>> > >>>>> In some previous post there was an allusion made about Home Hardwar > >>>> boat paint. I went to > >>>>> their web site to find it and was not able to do so. I am interested > >>>> to learn more about it > >>>>> specially because it is suppose to be more affordable. Can someone > >>>> who knows that product > >>>>> direct me to a more precise identification. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, Martin. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 18696|18696|2008-10-29 21:57:04|Shane Duncan|Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail|I have decided to go with a Wharram Tiki wing sail. its a kind of high aspect gaff rig, it has excellent windward performance it is also a very simple and robust design  http://wharram.com/sales/images/wingsailconversion.jpg the sail wraps around a mast than back onto the sail to form a pocket this gives it a natural airfoil on the leading edge plus a way to lift the sail up and down the mast. there is a company in the states that cut out all the matertial for the Tiki wing sail send it to you then you do all the sowing saving a lot of money a brand new a gaff rig sail will be a lot cheaper to make than a new marconi rig sail as a lot of the expense in the marconi rig sail is ig getting a 3 dimensional airfoil from 2 dimensional material. This is achived on a gaff rig sail with the gaff and a loose-tied boom. i would bet that a Tiki gaff rig would sail better up wind than a second hand marconi rig sail not a lot of differance in cost, plus there is a safety factor with a gaff rig due to its lower CE and the ability to get the sail down in a hurry from the weight of the gaff. The working Pilot cutters used gaff rigs, not marconi rigs shane ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 8:44:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig With either a gaff rig or a junk rig ,you can't simply buy used sails, hank them on, and go cruising . Gaff sails ,used, are rare and junk even rarer , meaning you have to build them from scratch . Junks have hundreds of feet of running rigging, and many blocks , battens etc, and are anything but cheap or simple. They don't have anywhere near the windward performance of marconi , especially gaff. A friend ,who left BC for Mexico several years ago ,was  a great fan of his junk rig. He is finally admitting that the only way to get his 40 footer to go to windward is by 80 horsepower diesel. I see absolutely no advantage, cost or simplicity wise, in a gaff or junk rig.  Where are the great savings? They also tend to eat themselves with chaffe on a long pasgae. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 08:11:22AM -0000, Gerrit wrote: > > Hello all > > > > Im looking for the cheapest and simplest way to build my ship and Im a > > lover of the gaff cutter too. So Im thinking about the possibility of > > a gaff rig on my Swain 36. > > If you're looking for cheap and simple, you might want to consider a > junk rig as well. I haven't built one (although I'm considering redoing > Ulysses as a junk rig at some point), but I've sailed on one, and was > impressed. No winches there, either. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18697|18696|2008-10-29 23:06:12|brentswain38|Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail|Used sails would be a tiny fraction the cost of materials for any new sail of the same area. I've never had any problem geting marconi sails down in a hurry. In assesing the performance of any rig, you have to also add the time your spend waiting for it to be built and paying for it while the guy who went the supposedly less "efficent " route is underway. You'll never sail far enough to make up for the time you wasted. Cruising dreams die the death of a thousand cuts. Justifying extra expenses in the name of "Efficency " becomes a habit that tends to snowball expenses. Brent @yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > I have decided to go with a Wharram Tiki wing sail. > its a kind of high aspect gaff rig, it has excellent windward performance > it is also a very simple and robust design > >  http://wharram.com/sales/images/wingsailconversion.jpg > > the sail wraps around a mast than back onto the sail to form a pocket > this gives it a natural airfoil on the leading edge > plus a way to lift the sail up and down the mast. > > there is a company in the states that cut out all the matertial for the Tiki wing sail > send it to you then you do all the sowing saving a lot of money > > a brand new a gaff rig sail will be a lot cheaper to make than a new marconi rig sail > as a lot of the expense in the marconi rig sail is ig getting a 3 dimensional > airfoil from 2 dimensional material. This is achived on a gaff rig sail with the > gaff and a loose-tied boom. > > i would bet that a Tiki gaff rig would sail better up wind than a second hand > marconi rig sail not a lot of differance in cost, plus there is a safety factor with a gaff > rig due to its lower CE and the ability to get the sail down in a hurry from the weight of the gaff. > The working Pilot cutters used gaff rigs, not marconi rigs > > shane > > ________________________________ > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 8:44:31 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig > > With either a gaff rig or a junk rig ,you can't simply buy used > sails, hank them on, and go cruising . Gaff sails ,used, are rare > and junk even rarer , meaning you have to build them from scratch . > Junks have hundreds of feet of running rigging, and many blocks , > battens etc, and are anything but cheap or simple. They don't have > anywhere near the windward performance of marconi , especially gaff. > A friend ,who left BC for Mexico several years ago ,was  a great fan > of his junk rig. He is finally admitting that the only way to get > his 40 footer to go to windward is by 80 horsepower diesel. > I see absolutely no advantage, cost or simplicity wise, in a gaff > or junk rig.  Where are the great savings? They also tend to eat > themselves with chaffe on a long pasgae. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 08:11:22AM -0000, Gerrit wrote: > > > Hello all > > > > > > Im looking for the cheapest and simplest way to build my ship > and Im a > > > lover of the gaff cutter too. So Im thinking about the > possibility of > > > a gaff rig on my Swain 36. > > > > If you're looking for cheap and simple, you might want to consider > a > > junk rig as well. I haven't built one (although I'm considering > redoing > > Ulysses as a junk rig at some point), but I've sailed on one, and > was > > impressed. No winches there, either. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18698|18696|2008-10-30 00:59:21|Paul Wilson|Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail|>>>>>Used sails would be a tiny fraction the cost of materials for any new sail of the same area. There are incredibly good deals on good used sails. I just bought a used roller furling genoa for $400. It's in great shape. If I take care, it should last at least 5 years, probably 10. The last time I had a new acrylic sun strip sewn on to an existing sail, it cost almost that much. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18699|18649|2008-10-30 01:16:59|Gordon Schnell|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|Terry Thanks for reminding me of our previous "conversations". The company I used to machine my engine rebuild (VW) concur with your observations and my decisions. The injection pump rebuilder also reminded me that I need not apply the manifold vacuum feedback if I am not running the turbo. Everyone I have dealt with has supported my choices. Thanks for the support. I will post when she is in the water and up and running. Gord T & D Cain wrote: > > Gordon, --- Actually I didn't ask that marinising question, my reply > was to > the group in general after someone else asked that question, I was just > interested in the way the aftercooler and intercooler designations were > swapped around! > > In your case , I corresponded with you a few years back when you made the > decision on the VW, and you are perfectly correct in your choice of setup. > There was also an exchange re the link to the VW paper presented to > the SAE > on the development of the turbo version of the VW engine I use (the NA > Pirhana 1600 ex Hawker Siddeley). > > I just got a little carried away with the compressor bits having spent > quite > a bit of my previous working life very closely associated with all sorts > from GHH 5500HP turbos down to oil-free recips..-they sort of get in > to the > blood. > > I noticed that Denis had concerns re the injection pump --- the aneroid > fitted to turbo models modifies the injection volume curve only when there > is positive manifold pressure, so up till the point where you need more > power than the NA situation can deliver, you will be running up the curves > shown in the SAE paper. There is useful power below that point. I must get > that paper out and re-read. > > After the trouble of designing and manufacturing an oil adapter plate to > allow remote filtering and oil cooling, I saw one of-the-shelf in a US > site > just last week!!! That's life. > > Terry (now just as hot without the helmet --- 36C and 80+ RH) > > , > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of Gordon Schnell > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18700|18641|2008-10-30 03:40:15|peter_d_wiley|Re: Gaff Rig|Probably so. If you read Tom's books on steel boat building, you'll find a section where he gives you the math and figures on different types of masts and their fastening methods. His masts typically (for the size vessels we're discussing) are either 5" Sched 40 aluminium or 4" Sched 10 steel. Both stayed, both either keel stepped or stepped/locked in a tabernacle which is keel stepped, so the mast is effectively keel stepped anyway. I don't recall any of Tom's designs with free standing masts but I'm a long way from my library ATM. I do know that he added a spreader high up on his ANTELOPE design which was originally junk rigged and then changed to a gaff schooner rig. The plans I got from him with the junk schooner rig for a Witch show that he added a spreader here, too. I've never got around to asking him why; it doesn't show on my rigging plans for the gaff ketch or gaff schooner (I think...). Euler's Formula will tell you why it's a real good idea to have a stayed mast. You need to go to a lot bigger section to get the same stiffness. FWIW there was a builder in British Columbia who built a number of Gazelles but deviated from the plans sufficiently to claim that it was his own design. These boats apparently don't sail anywhere near as well because of the changes in the underbody design. Tom said he looked into suing him but the builder apparently only personally owned some tools and a pickup truck, so there wasn't going to be any gain. > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was wrong with > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the shrouds since the > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have been a case > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer though! :). > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:02 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little confusion. The > > kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the more modern > > versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by Blondie Hasler. > > Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. This is > > probably why it's more popular. > > > > The differences between the Hasler-Mcleod and the Colvin sails are > principally those of shape, and sheeting methods. Colvin's masts are > not structurally stayed - the stays are employed principally as > anti-whip devices. > > Tabernacles ARE possible with unstayed masts, as are the use of > light-air foresails. > Colin > > 28/2008 9:20 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18701|18701|2008-10-30 03:45:16|monicabroworth|Freebies 30th October|Dear Members A NEW Page of great Freebies was just added ready for Thursday 30th October. Visit Now! If you would like a veritable 'mountain' of free-stuff, take the time to visit the website below. It is packed with great freebies that ALL members can grab! There is even 250 Free Books you can download, straight away! You are sure to find something of interest, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES when you arrive at the site and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces...but its worth the work!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies! PS: When you have collected a few freebies for yourself, be nice and pass this email message forward to all your family and friends. Its very satisfying helping others and everyone loves something for nothing!| 18702|18655|2008-10-30 03:50:15|peter_d_wiley|Re: V.W. diesel|> Where do you buy those chinese gearboxes? > I found their website but still cannot locate an American distributor. No idea - I'm in Australia. The address below sent me a document giving some details on the Type 16A so I'd suggest asking her for a US distributor. zjjddq2008@... As I said I'm pretty happy with my Type 06 box and I expect to have a 16A one in the next month or so. Here is some data - I did a cut & paste from a Word doc so it doesn't line up at all. Hopefully you can figure it out. I'm trying to get a better manual. http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/209224719/marine_gear_box_for_marine.html Regards, Peter Type 06 Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing primarily in reduction as follows: Actualreduction ratio Modle Nominal reduction ratio Ahead drive Astern drive 3.5 ZF 06 3.5:1 3.5:1 3.28:1 3 ZF 06 3:01 3.05:1 3.28:1 2.5 ZF 06 2.5:1 2.52:1 2.50:1 The Type 16A Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing primarily in reduction as follows: Modle Nominal reduction ratio Ahead drive Astern drive 4 ZF 16A 4:01 3.83:1 3.61:1 3.5 ZF 16A 3.5:00 3.35:1 3.15:1 3 ZF 16A 3:01 2.95:1 2.95:1 2.5 ZF 16A 2.5:1 2.48:1 2.47:1 2 ZF 16 A 2:01 2.07:1 2.16:1 TECHNICAL PARAMETERS AND SPECIFICATIONS Item Description Symbols Unit Type06 Type16A 1 Rated transmission power P/n KW/ (r/min) 0.0118 0.0044 2 Rated speed of input shaft n (r/min) 2000 2100 3 Rated propeller thrust Type16 N.M 112.7 42.1 Type 06 16A Weight 70Kg 100Kg| 18703|18554|2008-10-30 04:12:53|martin demers|Re: home hardwar boat paint|do you know of any zinc primer that would fit in the same price range of the home hardware fisherman's paint? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:54:26 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: home hardwar boat paint > > > I haven't noticed any diference. I hear some take the paint out of > the same vats , put marine on one and raise the price. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> I know that, but is the Fisherman's boat paint similar to > Tremclad and those kind of exterior paints or is it different and > made especially for boats? >> >> Martin. >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: brentswain38@... >>> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:42:44 +0000 >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: home hardwar boat paint >>> >>> >>> I've found tremclad to be just a common oil based exterior > enamel, no >>> different from any other one. >>> Brent >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is it better than Tremclad? >>>> >>>> >>>> Martin. >>>> ________________________________ >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>> From: brentswain38@ >>>>> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:10:06 +0000 >>>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: home hardwar boat paint >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've seen it in white and green. I have used the white, some > with tint >>>>> in it, for decades. >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The stuuf is called Fisherman's Paint in Courtenay they only > have >>>>>> gray, blue and white it's twenty bucks a gallon. it's on my > boat >>> which >>>>>> isn't yet in the water so i can atest to it's reliablity but > brent >>>>>> says he uses it above the waterline. It's not for below the > waterline >>>>>> says on the can. >>>>>> >>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In some previous post there was an allusion made about Home > Hardwar >>>>>> boat paint. I went to >>>>>>> their web site to find it and was not able to do so. I am > interested >>>>>> to learn more about it >>>>>>> specially because it is suppose to be more affordable. Can > someone >>>>>> who knows that product >>>>>>> direct me to a more precise identification. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, Martin. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18704|18655|2008-10-30 05:00:46|martin demers|Re: V.W. diesel|Peter, where did you get yours? in australia? Marin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: peter_d_wiley@... > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:50:13 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel > > >> Where do you buy those chinese gearboxes? >> I found their website but still cannot locate an American distributor. > > No idea - I'm in Australia. > > The address below sent me a document giving some details on the Type > 16A so I'd suggest asking her for a US distributor. > > zjjddq2008@... > > As I said I'm pretty happy with my Type 06 box and I expect to have a > 16A one in the next month or so. > > Here is some data - I did a cut & paste from a Word doc so it doesn't > line up at all. Hopefully you can figure it out. I'm trying to get a > better manual. > > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/209224719/marine_gear_box_for_marine.html > > Regards, Peter > > Type 06 Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing primarily in > reduction as follows: > Actualreduction ratio > Modle > Nominal reduction ratio > Ahead drive > Astern drive > 3.5 ZF 06 > 3.5:1 > 3.5:1 > 3.28:1 > 3 ZF 06 > 3:01 > 3.05:1 > 3.28:1 > 2.5 ZF 06 > 2.5:1 > 2.52:1 > 2.50:1 > The Type 16A Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing > primarily in reduction as follows: > Modle > Nominal reduction ratio > Ahead drive > Astern drive > 4 ZF 16A > 4:01 > 3.83:1 > 3.61:1 > 3.5 ZF 16A > 3.5:00 > 3.35:1 > 3.15:1 > 3 ZF 16A > 3:01 > 2.95:1 > 2.95:1 > 2.5 ZF 16A > 2.5:1 > 2.48:1 > 2.47:1 > 2 ZF 16 A > 2:01 > 2.07:1 > 2.16:1 > > TECHNICAL PARAMETERS AND SPECIFICATIONS > Item > Description > Symbols > Unit > Type06 > Type16A > 1 > Rated transmission power > P/n > KW/ > (r/min) > 0.0118 > 0.0044 > 2 > Rated speed of input shaft > n > (r/min) > 2000 > 2100 > 3 > Rated propeller thrust > Type16 > N.M > 112.7 > 42.1 > > Type > 06 > 16A > Weight > 70Kg > 100Kg > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18705|18649|2008-10-30 05:57:08|T & D Cain|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|Doug J, I am not a heat exchanger design person, but from what I've seen and read, and what I have been taught by those whose life's work was compressors --- there are some basic approaches to sizing for all types of heat exchangers, however the bottom line is having the actual or projected operating numbers for the job in hand...real world temperature ranges for both coolant and output ---ambient and inlet air to engine in your case --- maximum mass-flow rate of product and normal mass-flow rate of the coolant. With this data, you can apply formula for Mean Temperature Difference for a given heat exchanger. To select or design a heat exchanger, there are also some quite basic and superficially simple formulae which deal with a host of variables present in any real world situation, generally this is a total heat transfer deal and you don't want to go into the why's and wherefores! OK, enough of the fine print: Your idea of a keel cooling circuit using a light grade oil to take heat from a conventional air/air module is interesting and I think it's doable without too much risk or troubles in realisation --- that doesn't mean I think it's necessary !!!! --- but, if you're determined to use some of the waste heat in your boat engine's exhaust, it should be not a major exercise to do a neat keel-cooled air/oil system. It is usual to account for the consequences of leakage if the dP is large, but in your case the turbo has a wastegate which probably limits the induction manifold to something between 0.6 and 0.9 bar. - roughly 9 to 13 psi - so the keel cooled oil needs to be circulated at a the required rate but at a low static head --- not difficult so far?? If you submerse the conventional air/air module in an atmospherically vented but close-fitting tank and ensure that the flow of oil is reasonably distributed across the matrix, the usual designs should not let you down. There could be need for a material upgrade for the air hoses if the chosen oil is not compatible --- usually need a silicon rubber or high-grade nitrile to resist unless those attachment points always remain oil-free ---- unlikely ??? The idea has some merit if you are driven to recover the heat and the engine was originally designed for turbocharging. Oil cooling becomes critical in the conversion of non-dedicated engines. The turbo has a thirst for bearing and seal cooling flow, and the piston crowns get hotter and that heat is taken into the oil by the oil jets fitted inside the crankcase. All the extra heat absorbed needs to be transferred out of the oil. The nominal sized marine oil cooler might be found wanting in some conversions. Cheers, terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2008 01:10 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors - Aftercooler Thanks for the advice Terry.? Lots of air volume would be a problem.? I do plan to use a turbo even with the additional work. I'll use the engine hard on some days and I just hate to leave good HP laying on the table.? I'm not crazy about raw water cooling an aftercooler because of the damage that could be caused by a leak. So I was thinking about using a keel to cool oil and use that oil cool from the keel to cool an aftercooler. If i have room, I might be able to just build a metal box around the stock aftercooler or fork out the bucks for a marine aftercooler.? Is that workable?? Best Doug J Doug J, If you were needing the best power the unit could deliver under the operating environment in question, the choice would be made after considering the initial setups and ongoing maintenance required. The air volumes for air/air cooling are quite large, and the downstream side of the cooling air needs to get outside and not simply heat the enginespace. This sometimes means noise and large openings which most would not want in a smallish boat.--- Works OK in autos since there is either movement or forced airflow and lots of free passage to outside. Water is good --- radiators do the job well as we know - but in a boat it's salt water, not coolant, and the matrix used in autos is not suitable for salt water. Raw water schemes start to get pricey and complex and there is also an ongoing maintenance issue. If you had a separate keel-cooling circuit, it would work fine and be no more drama than any other keel-cooling application. For yachts I think NA rather than turbo is best. If it's a power boat, there is already too much noise for me, but a bit more would hardly be noticed, so turbo-charged efficiency is sensible for those people. Cheers, Terry ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18706|18649|2008-10-30 06:06:37|T & D Cain|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|Too much silicon and not enough silicone makes for mistakes! -----Original Message----- From: T & D Cain [mailto:thcain@...] Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2008 19:27 To: 'origamiboats@yahoogroups.com' Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors - Aftercooler Doug J, I am not a heat exchanger design person, but from what I've seen and read, and what I have been taught by those whose life's work was compressors --- there are some basic approaches to sizing for all types of heat exchangers, however the bottom line is having the actual or projected operating numbers for the job in hand...real world temperature ranges for both coolant and output ---ambient and inlet air to engine in your case --- maximum mass-flow rate of product and normal mass-flow rate of the coolant. With this data, you can apply formula for Mean Temperature Difference for a given heat exchanger. To select or design a heat exchanger, there are also some quite basic and superficially simple formulae which deal with a host of variables present in any real world situation, generally this is a total heat transfer deal and you don't want to go into the why's and wherefores! OK, enough of the fine print: Your idea of a keel cooling circuit using a light grade oil to take heat from a conventional air/air module is interesting and I think it's doable without too much risk or troubles in realisation --- that doesn't mean I think it's necessary !!!! --- but, if you're determined to use some of the waste heat in your boat engine's exhaust, it should be not a major exercise to do a neat keel-cooled air/oil system. It is usual to account for the consequences of leakage if the dP is large, but in your case the turbo has a wastegate which probably limits the induction manifold to something between 0.6 and 0.9 bar. - roughly 9 to 13 psi - so the keel cooled oil needs to be circulated at a the required rate but at a low static head --- not difficult so far?? If you submerse the conventional air/air module in an atmospherically vented but close-fitting tank and ensure that the flow of oil is reasonably distributed across the matrix, the usual designs should not let you down. There could be need for a material upgrade for the air hoses if the chosen oil is not compatible --- usually need a silicone rubber or high-grade nitrile to resist unless those attachment points always remain oil-free ---- unlikely ??? The idea has some merit if you are driven to recover some of the heat and the engine was originally designed for turbocharging. Oil cooling becomes critical in the conversion of non-dedicated engines. The turbo has a thirst for bearing and seal cooling flow, and the piston crowns get hotter and that heat is taken into the oil by the oil jets fitted inside the crankcase. All the extra heat absorbed needs to be transferred out of the oil. The nominal sized marine oil cooler might be found wanting in some conversions. Cheers, terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2008 01:10 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel Motors - Aftercooler [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18707|18641|2008-10-30 06:53:47|sae140|Re: Gaff Rig|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 07:25:18AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was wrong with > > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the shrouds since the > > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have been a case > > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer though! :). > > I sailed on a homebuilt junk while I was in the islands (I don't recall > the designer - not Colvin - but it had everything I admire about good > boat design, simplicity and strength both); it had no shrouds and its > masts were in tabernacles. The owner told me that he had ordered the > round, tapered aluminum extrusions from a street light pole manufacturer > in North Carolina; it was very cheap by comparison to buying anything > that was actually called a mast, and had plenty of strength for his > purposes. > > Incidentally, it sailed to windward just fine. I was on the boat as race > crew, and we came off quite well - as I recall, 2nd or 3rd place - > against the field. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Despite having a wonderful picture of a junk-rigged Gazelle on the front cover of Colvin's 'Steel Boatbuilding - from plans to launching' (Vols 1 & 2), I have yet to find a single reference to junk rig construction within those pages - which is a helluva pity. However, in 'Cruising Wrinkles\ Sailing the Chinese Junk\ Masts', Colvin writes: " ... the majority of riverine junks do not carry ANY standing rigging. However, they DO lead halyards, topping lifts, etc. to the side of the hull which helps reduce the whipping of the spar somewhat. In most of the vessels of my design, the standing rigging merely serves to dampen the whip of the mast in a seaway." 'Cruising Wrinkles' is well-worth a read for anyone considering alternative rigs, in which Colvin runs comparative tests of jib-headed, gaff and junk rigs on the same hull. Also, I think it's always useful to bear in mind that gaff and junk rigs have their origins in working vessels, whereas the marconi rig has always been associated with racing yachts - their origins thus having a bearing on the performance characteristics of each rig as well as the demands placed on the crew using them. Certainly for the physically-challenged or older sailor, the junk rig has some advantages. Colin| 18708|18641|2008-10-30 08:14:20|ANDREW AIREY|Gaff Rig|Just as a constructional thought the boom on Het Leven - the Dutch barge in question - was not mounted on the mast.Presumeably this makes it easier to drop the mast for bridges,although in it's original operating area in Holland it probably would not have happened very often.It took the skipper and I about 90min to drop the mast and stow the sails(skipper is in his mid 80's).I think that where the masts had to be dropped frequently for bridges - Dutch Westlanders and Norfolk sailboats and Wherries are examples - then counterweighting the mast was frequently used cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18709|18649|2008-10-30 08:21:51|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|One problem with turbo's is that they add complication and you get some very interesting smoke and 'running on' effects if the oil seals fail. According to the guy who retrieved the truck after it happened to me they might last six months or six years,they are very unpredictable. cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 18710|18641|2008-10-30 15:09:30|brentswain38|Re: Gaff Rig|Honest junk rig entusiasts tell me they can point high in flat water only . I have seen this. In any kind of swell they point about 20 degrees lower than any well designed sloop or cutter. I have seen this too. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 07:25:18AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was > wrong with > > > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the shrouds > since the > > > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have > been a case > > > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer though! :). > > > > I sailed on a homebuilt junk while I was in the islands (I don't recall > > the designer - not Colvin - but it had everything I admire about good > > boat design, simplicity and strength both); it had no shrouds and its > > masts were in tabernacles. The owner told me that he had ordered the > > round, tapered aluminum extrusions from a street light pole manufacturer > > in North Carolina; it was very cheap by comparison to buying anything > > that was actually called a mast, and had plenty of strength for his > > purposes. > > > > Incidentally, it sailed to windward just fine. I was on the boat as race > > crew, and we came off quite well - as I recall, 2nd or 3rd place - > > against the field. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > Despite having a wonderful picture of a junk-rigged Gazelle on the > front cover of Colvin's 'Steel Boatbuilding - from plans to launching' > (Vols 1 & 2), I have yet to find a single reference to junk rig > construction within those pages - which is a helluva pity. > > However, in 'Cruising Wrinkles\ Sailing the Chinese Junk\ Masts', > Colvin writes: > " ... the majority of riverine junks do not carry ANY standing > rigging. However, they DO lead halyards, topping lifts, etc. to the > side of the hull which helps reduce the whipping of the spar somewhat. > In most of the vessels of my design, the standing rigging merely > serves to dampen the whip of the mast in a seaway." > > 'Cruising Wrinkles' is well-worth a read for anyone considering > alternative rigs, in which Colvin runs comparative tests of > jib-headed, gaff and junk rigs on the same hull. Also, I think it's > always useful to bear in mind that gaff and junk rigs have their > origins in working vessels, whereas the marconi rig has always been > associated with racing yachts - their origins thus having a bearing on > the performance characteristics of each rig as well as the demands > placed on the crew using them. Certainly for the > physically-challenged or older sailor, the junk rig has some advantages. > Colin > | 18711|18696|2008-10-30 15:12:24|brentswain38|Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail|Sew your own sun strip on . A good hand crank sewing machine is one of the greatest money savers on any cruising boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > >>>>>Used sails would be a tiny fraction the cost of materials for any > new sail of the same area. > > > There are incredibly good deals on good used sails. I just bought a used > roller furling genoa for $400. It's in great shape. If I take care, it > should last at least 5 years, probably 10. The last time I had a new > acrylic sun strip sewn on to an existing sail, it cost almost that much. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18712|18641|2008-10-30 15:20:14|brentswain38|Re: Gaff Rig|Those BC boats were built by either Foulkes of Fehrs. They a were ten guage plate , painted outside only welded outside only and the weld mostly grouind off for cosmetic reasons. They usualy rusted out from the inside, as the inside was rarely painted, only foamed over bare steel. They were disasters, but still sell for high prices in some cases. Friends tried sailing south, and finding it didn't have a hope in hell of self steering, gave up, and sold the boat. Other friends sailed on to Xmas Island, taking 76 days for the voyage, and sold her cheap there. They continue to give steel boats a bad name. As far as I know , the builders have no offshore cruising experience, and the boats are an example of people with no offshore experience redesigning boats. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Probably so. If you read Tom's books on steel boat building, you'll > find a section where he gives you the math and figures on different > types of masts and their fastening methods. > > His masts typically (for the size vessels we're discussing) are either > 5" Sched 40 aluminium or 4" Sched 10 steel. Both stayed, both either > keel stepped or stepped/locked in a tabernacle which is keel stepped, > so the mast is effectively keel stepped anyway. I don't recall any of > Tom's designs with free standing masts but I'm a long way from my > library ATM. I do know that he added a spreader high up on his > ANTELOPE design which was originally junk rigged and then changed to a > gaff schooner rig. The plans I got from him with the junk schooner rig > for a Witch show that he added a spreader here, too. I've never got > around to asking him why; it doesn't show on my rigging plans for the > gaff ketch or gaff schooner (I think...). > > Euler's Formula will tell you why it's a real good idea to have a > stayed mast. You need to go to a lot bigger section to get the same > stiffness. > > FWIW there was a builder in British Columbia who built a number of > Gazelles but deviated from the plans sufficiently to claim that it was > his own design. These boats apparently don't sail anywhere near as > well because of the changes in the underbody design. Tom said he > looked into suing him but the builder apparently only personally owned > some tools and a pickup truck, so there wasn't going to be any gain. > > > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was > wrong with > > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the shrouds > since the > > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have been > a case > > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer though! :). > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of sae140 > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:02 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little > confusion. The > > > kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the more modern > > > versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by Blondie > Hasler. > > > Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. This is > > > probably why it's more popular. > > > > > > > The differences between the Hasler-Mcleod and the Colvin sails are > > principally those of shape, and sheeting methods. Colvin's masts are > > not structurally stayed - the stays are employed principally as > > anti-whip devices. > > > > Tabernacles ARE possible with unstayed masts, as are the use of > > light-air foresails. > > Colin > > > > 28/2008 9:20 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 18713|18713|2008-10-30 15:42:15|svfrolic|DIY roller furling|Hi, I just got Brent's book and I found this roller furling design. I would like to make something like this for my boat so I am curious if anybody build this unit and what is her/his opinion. I was also looking for the option #2, to connect two parts of aluminum tubing using this connectors and bolts instead of welding them but I was afraid that the luff tube might be pulled out in heavy blow… I have got also another idea, why not to use just one single aluminum tube for both forestay and luff line...? Just make a slot along the pipe a little bigger on the bottom to slide luff rope in. I am not really sure if forestay and luff rope need to be separated in two parts of extrusion, but I can always put several pins in this tube to separate them. But anyway what do you think about using only one tube for both forestay and luff rope? Thanks, Matt| 18714|18518|2008-10-30 15:44:59|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|My neighbour in one of my 36 foters has a two piece hatch, with a lift top. I have rarely seen him lift the top during the many years he has been living aboard. With the canopy above the hatch, the most he can lift it is the same height as the cupola on the hatch, the way I originaly designed it. A one piece hatch can be easily made as watertight as the lid on a presser cooker. With a two piece hatch this is extremely difficult to impossible. It does make for extra wages for the builder tho. When we first began building steel masts for 36 footers, we used 5 1/2 inch OD tubing with a 11 guage wall thickness. This worked well over thousands of miles of ocean cruising, and never threatened to be any problem. It did become impossible to find, so we went for 6 inch OD( 150mm) tubing. When I told people to go for 6 inch OD, some bought well casing which is 6 5/8th OD with 10 guage wall, much heavier. This is the stuff with grooves in the ends for conectors.As it was what they had, we built masts out of it. It worked out OK , a bit heavy for a 36 , but most owners were happy. Several changed later to aluminium. When I asked one what the difference was, he said " If it had been 6 inch OD it wouldn't have been worth changing ,as the difference was minimal. With 6 5/8th it was marginaly worth the effort and expense of changing. Another advantage is that 6 inch comes in 24 foot lengths , eliminating one scarf. Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in the mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a lot of problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to Tonga and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. The materials list I give is all you need to build a boat. Evan prefers to add a lot of extra materials to the list, as he finds it easier and more convenient to simply grab an extra sheet at the owners expense and not have to plan material useage. More expense for the owner? Tough shit . His convenience is his first priority. I have seen an owner with a full sheet left over, which Evan could buy for a cut price for his own use. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > One mistake I have often seen over the years is the use of Lexan for > pilothouse windows, often by those who have seen it fog up on other > boats. After about three years it begins to fog up, eventually making > it impossible to see out of that beautiful seat with a view in the > wheelhouse. > As I mentioned elsewhere on this site, I just pounded a 6 inch round > of plexi with a sledgehammer without breaking it. It took may hits > with the hammer. I don't think the strength of plexi is an issue > unless you go for huge picture windows. A friend in the plastics > business told me that plexi has 25 times the impact resistance of > standard glass. Side windows are far more prone to breaking than > front windows at sea.Tempered glass is a different story, and allows > the use of a wiper, a huge advantage in rainy BC. > I used 1/2inch tempered glass for the front of my wheelhouse for this > reason. Love the hand operated wiper. As the only time it steams up > is when I'm cooking, and drys off quickly after , I don't see any > advantage in double paned glass. An extra 1/4 inch of foam in the hull > will retain more heat. > 3/8th glass has the same weight as the 11 guage steel plate that you > remove for windows. Anything thicker adds weigh, altho I still prefer > half inch tempered. > Carl , you said you found a good source for glass. Where? I heard > that Bronco glass in Whiterock was good source , but I went to Broco > by mistake , a big mistake. I wouldn't recommend them. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > 86 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed since then, Evan has since come > > to think of himself as an expert, with absolutely no cruising > > experience since. A lo tof my boats have crosed a o lot of oceans > > since then and a lot of their input has been added to my designs.Evan > > used to listen to what I suggested from input from other cruisers out > > actualy cruising , and follow the directions I gave him. Now it's like > > trying to get a message thru a brick wall. > > For example, he took this 31 footer out for a sail in Georgia strait > > once, got caught out in a 25 knot westerly , and surprise, surprise , > > the anchor well vent that he had absolutely no cover on, and no way to > > close off, got a few splashes of water rin , and scared the shit out > > of him. He appeared to decide then and there that all vents are a > > bad idea , because they let water in. > > The boat next to me that Evan built has no real vents except the > > hatches , which are all you need if you repeat Evans only experience > > ,which is tied to the dock , but they don't work beating to windward > > offshore. You get "dockside only" experience. > > A couple in Frisco Bay were camped on a boat that Evan built , and > > woke up with splitting headaches, in time, fortunately, to realise > > that the boat was totally airtight. They were suffocating. The owner > > has since made the ventilation changes that were in the original > > design, that Evan had overuled. Don't let an amateur make life and > > death decisions, of which there are many on offshore cruising boats. > > On my first run to Tonga and back I didn't have enough ventilation , > > enough for safety but not enough for comfort. beating to windward thru > > the tropics for 4,000 miles. I put a couple of four inch cowl vents in > > for the next trip , and the difference was huge . You still need air > > in a hurricane , vents that can be left open in any conditions. > > Hurricanes don make you immune to suffocation. > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > You make it sound like all of Evan's boats are crap :). I have to > > say that > > > I had no problems with Evan whatsoever. I never felt any pressure > > to change > > > anything. The most major change I made, was bounced off you and you > > said it > > > would be OK. At the time, Evan had built or helped build 9 of your > > boats. > > > I don't want to be critical, but to be fair, I have to say the plans > > were > > > quite "sketchy" at the time and had few details. I am sure it is > > different > > > now, but this was in 1986. I trusted Evan to interpret the plans, > > since he > > > had the experience in building the boats and had approval by you to > > build to > > > the plans. He made it clear that he had no cruising experience. If I > > > remember right, I don't think he had actually sailed any boat at the > > time > > > since his own boat had only just been launched. Be that as it > may, I am > > > sure there were no changes to any of the scantlings since the > > materials were > > > ordered according to your list. Any design changes, like I said, were > > > bounced off you. I did make a few of my own minor decisions since I > > had a > > > little bit of offshore crewing and local sailing and developed some > > of my > > > own opinions. While I was building, you dropped by once in awhile and > > > voiced no objections as to what was going on. If you had said you > > didn't > > > like something, I definitely would have changed it. Has any two > > homebuilt > > > boats ever been the same? > > > > > > In conclusion, as far as my experience goes, any changes to the > > plans were > > > my decision and I am to be blamed, not Evan. I am certain I could > have > > > learned more if you had built the boat instead of Evan, but I am > > extremely > > > happy with the result. It has proven itself over and over again and > > sails > > > great. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:25 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Common Screwups > > > > > > Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an board > > > if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out at low > > > tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off their boat > > > and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the government has > > > made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian waters. > > > I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any boats I > > > have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, > > > especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. > > > I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back aboard > > > any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him to do so, > > > but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients struggle with > > > everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while living > > > in drying anchorages. > > > The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life tied to a > > > dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a total > > > cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes life and > > > death decisions) > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges of > the twin > > > > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > > > > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single keel will > > > > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with molten lead > > > > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading > edge pipe > > > > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > > > > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long after I > > > > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made the keels > > > > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a rats ass > > > > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have your money > > > > by then. Tough shit! > > > > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the wheelhouse , > > > > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch plate > > > > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull to a web > > > > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on the > > > > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the > strength > > > > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of the keels > > > > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto the keels > > > > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > > > > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end of the > > > > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It could be > > > > neccessary on the 31 tho. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin then a flat > > > > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see out > > of the > > > > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in the > rain > > > > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be > foolish. > > > > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor space aft. > > > > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 have had no > > > > > problem getting headroom without having to change the design > in any > > > > > way , except lowering the floor. > > > > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then it > would > > > > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "Gerrit" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations Brent! I > > > think > > > > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when someone > > > trys > > > > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I start > > building > > > > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you directly, if I > > > would > > > > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the floor has a > > > lot of > > > > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as > > > possible. In > > > > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and > > pilothouse I > > > > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an idea how > > > I get > > > > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin and > > > > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull maybe will > > > not be > > > > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get that. > > > Because I > > > > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough headroom > > and if > > > > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" tall, so I > > > think > > > > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly high it up > > > to my > > > > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the > > pilothouse and > > > > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under windvane > > in bad > > > > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: > > 10/19/2008 > > > 6:02 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 18715|18713|2008-10-30 15:56:54|brentswain38|Re: DIY roller furling|Some people lately have been using a single pipe, as you can buy 1 1/4 inch aluminiumn sch 40 pipe with the slot already in it, saving a lot of time and work. Welding the last two inches of the slot closed makes the pipe a lot stiffer, and resistant to twisting loads . Try twisting it while watching the slot on the ends and you'll see why. They make up plastic bushings out of poly sheet to centre the stay and keep the stay and the luff rope apart. These are set every 2 ft, screwed in with flat head ss screws. At first I was concerned about the stay chafing the luff rope , but I was recently given a jib with a lot of years in this rig, and there was no evidence of chafe. It rolls up a lot smoother than the two pipe rig and takes a lot less welding. You can cut the bushings out of a sheet of 3/4 inch poly with a hole saw. Just push the hole saw 1/4 way thru one side, then 1/4 way thru from the other side. Then drill out the hole for the stay and one for the luff rope , before pushing the hole saw all the way thru. Single split pipe couplings work well for this rig too, pop riveted in with ss pop rivets. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svfrolic" wrote: > > Hi, > > I just got Brent's book and I found this roller furling design. I > would like to make something like this for my boat so I am curious if > anybody build this unit and what is her/his opinion. > I was also looking for the option #2, to connect two parts of > aluminum tubing using this connectors and bolts instead of welding > them but I was afraid that the luff tube might be pulled out in heavy > blow… > I have got also another idea, why not to use just one single aluminum > tube for both forestay and luff line...? Just make a slot along the > pipe a little bigger on the bottom to slide luff rope in. I am not > really sure if forestay and luff rope need to be separated in two > parts of extrusion, but I can always put several pins in this tube to > separate them. > But anyway what do you think about using only one tube for both > forestay and luff rope? > > Thanks, > > Matt > | 18716|18713|2008-10-30 16:09:11|Paul Wilson|DIY Welder|I thought some of you might be interested in this. Instructables is a great site. Lots of cool stuff. http://www.instructables.com/id/SpoolGun/ and http://www.instructables.com/id/Golfcart--Welder/ Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18717|18649|2008-10-30 16:31:07|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|Thanks again Terry for the good advice and info. Best of Luck Doug J [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18718|18557|2008-10-30 16:55:09|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Wing Keels, Rudder bottom plates, and wetted surface|I got an email and photos of a center keel that had a wings added on.? The boat is named Beatrice and she owned by Sten Hellsten of Sweden.? I also stole Teds photos and photos from Lerouge and posted all of them on a web page for comparision. http://www.submarineboat.com/keels.htm Beatrice must have a lot more wetted surface but Sten has sailed Beatrice some since the conversion and can't tell any difference in preformance.? Could be that the wing is off setting the additional surface area?? My question to you good folks is how much does wetted surface actually mean to preformance.? I can understand the actuall shape and cross-section to the direction of travel making a big diference but I'd think that another 5% of wetted suface would hardly be noticiable.? Is there any quantifiable measurement for the preformance loss? Best of Luck Doug J Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 5:23 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead and Keels Doug, Aaron, Here is the site that is was thinking of. I found it at last. http://www.lerouge-yachts.com/mono_TKS.htm Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18719|18719|2008-10-30 16:57:56|kingsknight4life|Steel prices dropped?|I heard steel prices world wide have been dropping, has this been reflected in retail prices yet? Also does anyone know where and how much the prices for preprimed wheel abraded prices are here in Canada? Thanks Rowland| 18720|18649|2008-10-30 17:01:27|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Diesel Motors - Aftercooler|But they sound really cool.? :)?? No, you are right any repair or replacement will be expensive but the fuel savings will make up for the additional cost.? And if you don't have any turbo problems, then you end up with more money in your pocket.? --Doug J One problem with turbo's is that they add complication and you get some very interesting smoke and 'running on' effects if the oil seals fail. According to the guy who retrieved the truck after it happened to me they might last six months or six years,they are very unpredictable. cheers andy airey ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18721|18719|2008-10-30 17:08:19|Carl Anderson|Re: Steel prices dropped?|Rowland, I just bought some stainless at the scrap yard and was surprised to see it at .75/pound!!!! Also the inventory was down quite a bit at my usual place. I guess that the Chinese aren't buying like they were earlier. Carl kingsknight4life wrote: > > > I heard steel prices world wide have been dropping, has this been > reflected in retail prices yet? Also does anyone know where and how > much the prices for preprimed wheel abraded prices are here in Canada? > Thanks Rowland > > | 18722|18696|2008-10-30 20:59:11|Aaron Williams|sails|I picked up a roller furling genoa last year for $200 on ebay all it needs is replace the sun gaurd strip. I even got the old SS roler furler with it. Since it is about 2 foot shorter than the plans could I make that up with sun gaurd strip? Aaron --- On Thu, 10/30/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 11:11 AM Sew your own sun strip on . A good hand crank sewing machine is one of the greatest money savers on any cruising boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > >>>>>Used sails would be a tiny fraction the cost of materials for any > new sail of the same area. > > > There are incredibly good deals on good used sails. I just bought a used > roller furling genoa for $400. It's in great shape. If I take care, it > should last at least 5 years, probably 10. The last time I had a new > acrylic sun strip sewn on to an existing sail, it cost almost that much. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18723|18641|2008-10-30 21:22:14|silascrosby|Re: Gaff Rig|I remember an outfit called Greenwich Yachts were building 'Gazelles' out of aluminum 25 or 30 years ago somewhere in the BC Lower Mainland. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Those BC boats were built by either Foulkes of Fehrs. They a were > ten guage plate , painted outside only welded outside only and the > weld mostly grouind off for cosmetic reasons. They usualy rusted out > from the inside, as the inside was rarely painted, only foamed over > bare steel. They were disasters, but still sell for high prices in > some cases. Friends tried sailing south, and finding it didn't have > a hope in hell of self steering, gave up, and sold the boat. Other > friends sailed on to Xmas Island, taking 76 days for the voyage, > and sold her cheap there. > They continue to give steel boats a bad name. > As far as I know , the builders have no offshore cruising > experience, and the boats are an example of people with no offshore > experience redesigning boats. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > Probably so. If you read Tom's books on steel boat building, you'll > > find a section where he gives you the math and figures on different > > types of masts and their fastening methods. > > > > His masts typically (for the size vessels we're discussing) are > either > > 5" Sched 40 aluminium or 4" Sched 10 steel. Both stayed, both > either > > keel stepped or stepped/locked in a tabernacle which is keel > stepped, > > so the mast is effectively keel stepped anyway. I don't recall any > of > > Tom's designs with free standing masts but I'm a long way from my > > library ATM. I do know that he added a spreader high up on his > > ANTELOPE design which was originally junk rigged and then changed > to a > > gaff schooner rig. The plans I got from him with the junk schooner > rig > > for a Witch show that he added a spreader here, too. I've never got > > around to asking him why; it doesn't show on my rigging plans for > the > > gaff ketch or gaff schooner (I think...). > > > > Euler's Formula will tell you why it's a real good idea to have a > > stayed mast. You need to go to a lot bigger section to get the same > > stiffness. > > > > FWIW there was a builder in British Columbia who built a number of > > Gazelles but deviated from the plans sufficiently to claim that it > was > > his own design. These boats apparently don't sail anywhere near as > > well because of the changes in the underbody design. Tom said he > > looked into suing him but the builder apparently only personally > owned > > some tools and a pickup truck, so there wasn't going to be any > gain. > > > > > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was > > wrong with > > > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the > shrouds > > since the > > > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have > been > > a case > > > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer > though! :). > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of sae140 > > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:02 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little > > confusion. The > > > > kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the > more modern > > > > versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by > Blondie > > Hasler. > > > > Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. > This is > > > > probably why it's more popular. > > > > > > > > > > The differences between the Hasler-Mcleod and the Colvin sails > are > > > principally those of shape, and sheeting methods. Colvin's masts > are > > > not structurally stayed - the stays are employed principally as > > > anti-whip devices. > > > > > > Tabernacles ARE possible with unstayed masts, as are the use of > > > light-air foresails. > > > Colin > > > > > > 28/2008 9:20 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 18724|18518|2008-10-30 21:35:45|silascrosby|Wire halyards|Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron halyards and sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps time for replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going offshore again. Steve ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in the > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a lot of > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to Tonga > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > Brent > > > | 18725|18696|2008-10-30 21:52:14|Paul Wilson|Re: sails|The sun protective strip is normally acrylic (good in the sun) so too stretchy. There is also sometimes a sun strip made from Dacron (lighter weight but doesn't lat as long) but it is normally 3 ounce(?) cloth and too light to be structural. The only real option is to add a panel onto the bottom. Iff it's a really old sail it may not be worth it since you have to rebuild the corners of the sail. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Williams Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 12:59 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] sails I picked up a roller furling genoa last year for $200 on ebay all it needs is replace the sun gaurd strip. I even got the old SS roler furler with it. Since it is about 2 foot shorter than the plans could I make that up with sun gaurd strip? Aaron --- On Thu, 10/30/08, brentswain38 > wrote: From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 11:11 AM Sew your own sun strip on . A good hand crank sewing machine is one of the greatest money savers on any cruising boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > >>>>>Used sails would be a tiny fraction the cost of materials for any > new sail of the same area. > > > There are incredibly good deals on good used sails. I just bought a used > roller furling genoa for $400. It's in great shape. If I take care, it > should last at least 5 years, probably 10. The last time I had a new > acrylic sun strip sewn on to an existing sail, it cost almost that much. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1757 - Release Date: 10/30/2008 2:35 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18726|18641|2008-10-31 02:38:53|brentswain38|Re: Gaff Rig|Greenwich built good boats out of aluminium. A friend worked for them. They woud give a quote, get some money down and start. They would run out of money , then start using money for the next order to finish the last one. This would progress until they needed all the money from the next boat to finish the last one. Finally the only way out was bankrupcy. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > I remember an outfit called Greenwich Yachts were building 'Gazelles' > out of aluminum 25 or 30 years ago somewhere in the BC Lower Mainland. > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Those BC boats were built by either Foulkes of Fehrs. They a were > > ten guage plate , painted outside only welded outside only and the > > weld mostly grouind off for cosmetic reasons. They usualy rusted out > > from the inside, as the inside was rarely painted, only foamed over > > bare steel. They were disasters, but still sell for high prices in > > some cases. Friends tried sailing south, and finding it didn't have > > a hope in hell of self steering, gave up, and sold the boat. Other > > friends sailed on to Xmas Island, taking 76 days for the voyage, > > and sold her cheap there. > > They continue to give steel boats a bad name. > > As far as I know , the builders have no offshore cruising > > experience, and the boats are an example of people with no offshore > > experience redesigning boats. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > Probably so. If you read Tom's books on steel boat building, you'll > > > find a section where he gives you the math and figures on different > > > types of masts and their fastening methods. > > > > > > His masts typically (for the size vessels we're discussing) are > > either > > > 5" Sched 40 aluminium or 4" Sched 10 steel. Both stayed, both > > either > > > keel stepped or stepped/locked in a tabernacle which is keel > > stepped, > > > so the mast is effectively keel stepped anyway. I don't recall any > > of > > > Tom's designs with free standing masts but I'm a long way from my > > > library ATM. I do know that he added a spreader high up on his > > > ANTELOPE design which was originally junk rigged and then changed > > to a > > > gaff schooner rig. The plans I got from him with the junk schooner > > rig > > > for a Witch show that he added a spreader here, too. I've never got > > > around to asking him why; it doesn't show on my rigging plans for > > the > > > gaff ketch or gaff schooner (I think...). > > > > > > Euler's Formula will tell you why it's a real good idea to have a > > > stayed mast. You need to go to a lot bigger section to get the same > > > stiffness. > > > > > > FWIW there was a builder in British Columbia who built a number of > > > Gazelles but deviated from the plans sufficiently to claim that it > > was > > > his own design. These boats apparently don't sail anywhere near as > > > well because of the changes in the underbody design. Tom said he > > > looked into suing him but the builder apparently only personally > > owned > > > some tools and a pickup truck, so there wasn't going to be any > > gain. > > > > > > > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was > > > wrong with > > > > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the > > shrouds > > > since the > > > > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have > > been > > > a case > > > > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer > > though! :). > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of sae140 > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:02 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little > > > confusion. The > > > > > kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the > > more modern > > > > > versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by > > Blondie > > > Hasler. > > > > > Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. > > This is > > > > > probably why it's more popular. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The differences between the Hasler-Mcleod and the Colvin sails > > are > > > > principally those of shape, and sheeting methods. Colvin's masts > > are > > > > not structurally stayed - the stays are employed principally as > > > > anti-whip devices. > > > > > > > > Tabernacles ARE possible with unstayed masts, as are the use of > > > > light-air foresails. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > 28/2008 9:20 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 18727|18696|2008-10-31 02:42:08|brentswain38|Re: sails|Esther,who repairs sails for a living, sold me some low stretch , lightweight stuff developed for that use. It wasn't that expensive. I went for black for maximum UV resistance, and invisibility in one boat anchorages. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > The sun protective strip is normally acrylic (good in the sun) so too > stretchy. There is also sometimes a sun strip made from Dacron (lighter > weight but doesn't lat as long) but it is normally 3 ounce(?) cloth and too > light to be structural. The only real option is to add a panel onto the > bottom. Iff it's a really old sail it may not be worth it since you have to > rebuild the corners of the sail. > > Cheers, Paul > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Aaron Williams > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 12:59 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] sails > > I picked up a roller furling genoa last year for $200 on ebay all it needs > is replace the sun gaurd strip. I even got the old SS roler furler with it. > Since it is about 2 foot shorter than the plans could I make that up with > sun gaurd strip? > Aaron > > --- On Thu, 10/30/08, brentswain38 > wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 11:11 AM > > Sew your own sun strip on . A good hand crank sewing machine is one > of the greatest money savers on any cruising boat. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Paul Wilson" > wrote: > > > > >>>>>Used sails would be a tiny fraction the cost of materials for > any > > new sail of the same area. > > > > > > There are incredibly good deals on good used sails. I just bought > a used > > roller furling genoa for $400. It's in great shape. If I take > care, it > > should last at least 5 years, probably 10. The last time I had a > new > > acrylic sun strip sewn on to an existing sail, it cost almost that > much. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1757 - Release Date: 10/30/2008 > 2:35 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18728|18518|2008-10-31 02:46:02|brentswain38|Re: Wire halyards|Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots on your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard may touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving and definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your options open, small ones don't Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron halyards and > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps time for > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going offshore again. > Steve > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in the > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a lot of > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to Tonga > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > Brent > > > > > > > | 18729|18713|2008-10-31 02:48:29|brentswain38|Re: DIY Welder|I prefer the alternator welder as I don't have to worry about the batteries running out of juice before the job is done. Cheaper too. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I thought some of you might be interested in this. Instructables is a great > site. Lots of cool stuff. > > http://www.instructables.com/id/SpoolGun/ and > http://www.instructables.com/id/Golfcart--Welder/ > > Cheers, Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18730|18719|2008-10-31 02:54:08|brentswain38|Re: Steel prices dropped?|I heard the Chinese economy is dropping fast . They still have 9% growth , but need far more growth to employ the new workers entering the work force . That is far below their recent growth rate. They consider it an economic meltdown which could lead to politican instability there. They were the ones responsible for the rise in metal prices. Their western markets are drying up rapidly . Lead prices here are dropping rapidly here too. > Rowland, > > I just bought some stainless at the scrap yard and was surprised to see > it at .75/pound!!!! > Also the inventory was down quite a bit at my usual place. > I guess that the Chinese aren't buying like they were earlier. > Carl > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > > I heard steel prices world wide have been dropping, has this been > > reflected in retail prices yet? Also does anyone know where and how > > much the prices for preprimed wheel abraded prices are here in Canada? > > Thanks Rowland > > > > > | 18731|18696|2008-10-31 02:56:12|brentswain38|Re: sails|What is two ft shorter , the sail or the furler? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I picked up a roller furling genoa last year for $200 on ebay all it needs is replace the sun gaurd strip. I even got the old SS roler furler with it. > Since it is about 2 foot shorter than the plans could I make that up with sun gaurd strip? > Aaron > > --- On Thu, 10/30/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 11:11 AM > > > > > > > Sew your own sun strip on . A good hand crank sewing machine is one > of the greatest money savers on any cruising boat. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Paul Wilson" > wrote: > > > > >>>>>Used sails would be a tiny fraction the cost of materials for > any > > new sail of the same area. > > > > > > There are incredibly good deals on good used sails. I just bought > a used > > roller furling genoa for $400. It's in great shape. If I take > care, it > > should last at least 5 years, probably 10. The last time I had a > new > > acrylic sun strip sewn on to an existing sail, it cost almost that > much. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18732|18518|2008-10-31 05:23:22|silascrosby|Re: Wire halyards|My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too small diameter. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots on > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard may > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving and > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your options > open, small ones don't > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron halyards and > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps time for > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going offshore > again. > > Steve > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in > the > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a > lot of > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to > Tonga > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18733|18641|2008-10-31 06:34:48|peter_d_wiley|Re: Gaff Rig|Brent, I didn't want to mention names because I have no personal knowledge of the people or situation. However, Jake Fehrs is the person Tom was referring to when he told me that his Gazelle design was altered to avoid payment of royalties. I don't know about the other shortcomings and I'm happy to take your word for them but I'll never buy a hull built by Fehrs. I personally know a couple of Gazelle owners, plus a person who had the slip next to Dick Johnson, owner for over 30 years of MIGRANT, the second Gazelle built. Dick sailed that boat for 30 years all over the South Pacific. Say what you like about some Gazelles and some owners but the original design does sail. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Those BC boats were built by either Foulkes of Fehrs. They a were > ten guage plate , painted outside only welded outside only and the > weld mostly grouind off for cosmetic reasons. They usualy rusted out > from the inside, as the inside was rarely painted, only foamed over > bare steel. They were disasters, but still sell for high prices in > some cases. Friends tried sailing south, and finding it didn't have > a hope in hell of self steering, gave up, and sold the boat. Other > friends sailed on to Xmas Island, taking 76 days for the voyage, > and sold her cheap there. > They continue to give steel boats a bad name. > As far as I know , the builders have no offshore cruising > experience, and the boats are an example of people with no offshore > experience redesigning boats. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > Probably so. If you read Tom's books on steel boat building, you'll > > find a section where he gives you the math and figures on different > > types of masts and their fastening methods. > > > > His masts typically (for the size vessels we're discussing) are > either > > 5" Sched 40 aluminium or 4" Sched 10 steel. Both stayed, both > either > > keel stepped or stepped/locked in a tabernacle which is keel > stepped, > > so the mast is effectively keel stepped anyway. I don't recall any > of > > Tom's designs with free standing masts but I'm a long way from my > > library ATM. I do know that he added a spreader high up on his > > ANTELOPE design which was originally junk rigged and then changed > to a > > gaff schooner rig. The plans I got from him with the junk schooner > rig > > for a Witch show that he added a spreader here, too. I've never got > > around to asking him why; it doesn't show on my rigging plans for > the > > gaff ketch or gaff schooner (I think...). > > > > Euler's Formula will tell you why it's a real good idea to have a > > stayed mast. You need to go to a lot bigger section to get the same > > stiffness. > > > > FWIW there was a builder in British Columbia who built a number of > > Gazelles but deviated from the plans sufficiently to claim that it > was > > his own design. These boats apparently don't sail anywhere near as > > well because of the changes in the underbody design. Tom said he > > looked into suing him but the builder apparently only personally > owned > > some tools and a pickup truck, so there wasn't going to be any > gain. > > > > > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was > > wrong with > > > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the > shrouds > > since the > > > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have > been > > a case > > > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer > though! :). > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of sae140 > > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:02 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little > > confusion. The > > > > kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the > more modern > > > > versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by > Blondie > > Hasler. > > > > Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. > This is > > > > probably why it's more popular. > > > > > > > > > > The differences between the Hasler-Mcleod and the Colvin sails > are > > > principally those of shape, and sheeting methods. Colvin's masts > are > > > not structurally stayed - the stays are employed principally as > > > anti-whip devices. > > > > > > Tabernacles ARE possible with unstayed masts, as are the use of > > > light-air foresails. > > > Colin > > > > > > 28/2008 9:20 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 18734|18655|2008-10-31 06:39:42|peter_d_wiley|Re: V.W. diesel|I hate to say it, Martin, but off of Ebay. I'm negotiating on a type 16A at the moment. The seller said she got her 2 from sally@... As I said there is a minimum order but I suggest you drop a line to the email address and see what happens. I've said it before but it bears repeating. There are engines everywhere. Marine g/boxes are harder to find. Most modern engines are running at 3000+ rpm so you need at least a 3:1 box. Find the box first and then the engine. These boxes don't have a bell housing so need some sort of sub-frame to align their input shaft with the engine, but that's not hard to do. A lot easier than mating something with a different size bell housing to an existing motor. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Peter, > > where did you get yours? in australia? > > Marin. > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: peter_d_wiley@... > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:50:13 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel > > > > > >> Where do you buy those chinese gearboxes? > >> I found their website but still cannot locate an American distributor. > > > > No idea - I'm in Australia. > > > > The address below sent me a document giving some details on the Type > > 16A so I'd suggest asking her for a US distributor. > > > > zjjddq2008@... > > > > As I said I'm pretty happy with my Type 06 box and I expect to have a > > 16A one in the next month or so. > > > > Here is some data - I did a cut & paste from a Word doc so it doesn't > > line up at all. Hopefully you can figure it out. I'm trying to get a > > better manual. > > > > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/209224719/marine_gear_box_for_marine.html > > > > Regards, Peter > > > > Type 06 Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing primarily in > > reduction as follows: > > Actualreduction ratio > > Modle > > Nominal reduction ratio > > Ahead drive > > Astern drive > > 3.5 ZF 06 > > 3.5:1 > > 3.5:1 > > 3.28:1 > > 3 ZF 06 > > 3:01 > > 3.05:1 > > 3.28:1 > > 2.5 ZF 06 > > 2.5:1 > > 2.52:1 > > 2.50:1 > > The Type 16A Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing > > primarily in reduction as follows: > > Modle > > Nominal reduction ratio > > Ahead drive > > Astern drive > > 4 ZF 16A > > 4:01 > > 3.83:1 > > 3.61:1 > > 3.5 ZF 16A > > 3.5:00 > > 3.35:1 > > 3.15:1 > > 3 ZF 16A > > 3:01 > > 2.95:1 > > 2.95:1 > > 2.5 ZF 16A > > 2.5:1 > > 2.48:1 > > 2.47:1 > > 2 ZF 16 A > > 2:01 > > 2.07:1 > > 2.16:1 > > > > TECHNICAL PARAMETERS AND SPECIFICATIONS > > Item > > Description > > Symbols > > Unit > > Type06 > > Type16A > > 1 > > Rated transmission power > > P/n > > KW/ > > (r/min) > > 0.0118 > > 0.0044 > > 2 > > Rated speed of input shaft > > n > > (r/min) > > 2000 > > 2100 > > 3 > > Rated propeller thrust > > Type16 > > N.M > > 112.7 > > 42.1 > > > > Type > > 06 > > 16A > > Weight > > 70Kg > > 100Kg > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 18735|18696|2008-10-31 10:49:49|Aaron Williams|Re: sails|If I remember it the sail is 2 foot shorter in luf. --- On Thu, 10/30/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sails To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 10:56 PM What is two ft shorter , the sail or the furler? Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I picked up a roller furling genoa last year for $200 on ebay all it needs is replace the sun gaurd strip. I even got the old SS roler furler with it. > Since it is about 2 foot shorter than the plans could I make that up with sun gaurd strip? > Aaron > > --- On Thu, 10/30/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 11:11 AM > > > > > > > Sew your own sun strip on . A good hand crank sewing machine is one > of the greatest money savers on any cruising boat. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Paul Wilson" > wrote: > > > > >>>>>Used sails would be a tiny fraction the cost of materials for > any > > new sail of the same area. > > > > > > There are incredibly good deals on good used sails. I just bought > a used > > roller furling genoa for $400. It's in great shape. If I take > care, it > > should last at least 5 years, probably 10. The last time I had a > new > > acrylic sun strip sewn on to an existing sail, it cost almost that > much. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18736|18518|2008-10-31 12:01:38|theboilerflue|Re: Wire halyards|hey brent what are you using as a halyard winch to gather wire rope? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too small > diameter. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots on > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard may > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving and > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your options > > open, small ones don't > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > wrote: > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron halyards and > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps time for > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going offshore > > again. > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in > > the > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a > > lot of > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to > > Tonga > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18737|18641|2008-10-31 12:15:50|theboilerflue|Re: Gaff Rig|speaking of altered designs, almost a year ago now there was a a bruce roberts i think that had been "brent-ed" for sale for like 7000 or something like that. The cabin house had been changed and maybe a twin keel had been put on i can't remember now i was interested cause it was so cheap (that may not have beeen all that great however). I think it was in richmond it was a consideration of mine when i was buying my boat my alex. Does anyone know what happened to it? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Brent, I didn't want to mention names because I have no personal > knowledge of the people or situation. > > However, Jake Fehrs is the person Tom was referring to when he told me > that his Gazelle design was altered to avoid payment of royalties. I > don't know about the other shortcomings and I'm happy to take your > word for them but I'll never buy a hull built by Fehrs. > > I personally know a couple of Gazelle owners, plus a person who had > the slip next to Dick Johnson, owner for over 30 years of MIGRANT, the > second Gazelle built. Dick sailed that boat for 30 years all over the > South Pacific. Say what you like about some Gazelles and some owners > but the original design does sail. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Those BC boats were built by either Foulkes of Fehrs. They a were > > ten guage plate , painted outside only welded outside only and the > > weld mostly grouind off for cosmetic reasons. They usualy rusted out > > from the inside, as the inside was rarely painted, only foamed over > > bare steel. They were disasters, but still sell for high prices in > > some cases. Friends tried sailing south, and finding it didn't have > > a hope in hell of self steering, gave up, and sold the boat. Other > > friends sailed on to Xmas Island, taking 76 days for the voyage, > > and sold her cheap there. > > They continue to give steel boats a bad name. > > As far as I know , the builders have no offshore cruising > > experience, and the boats are an example of people with no offshore > > experience redesigning boats. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > Probably so. If you read Tom's books on steel boat building, you'll > > > find a section where he gives you the math and figures on different > > > types of masts and their fastening methods. > > > > > > His masts typically (for the size vessels we're discussing) are > > either > > > 5" Sched 40 aluminium or 4" Sched 10 steel. Both stayed, both > > either > > > keel stepped or stepped/locked in a tabernacle which is keel > > stepped, > > > so the mast is effectively keel stepped anyway. I don't recall any > > of > > > Tom's designs with free standing masts but I'm a long way from my > > > library ATM. I do know that he added a spreader high up on his > > > ANTELOPE design which was originally junk rigged and then changed > > to a > > > gaff schooner rig. The plans I got from him with the junk schooner > > rig > > > for a Witch show that he added a spreader here, too. I've never got > > > around to asking him why; it doesn't show on my rigging plans for > > the > > > gaff ketch or gaff schooner (I think...). > > > > > > Euler's Formula will tell you why it's a real good idea to have a > > > stayed mast. You need to go to a lot bigger section to get the same > > > stiffness. > > > > > > FWIW there was a builder in British Columbia who built a number of > > > Gazelles but deviated from the plans sufficiently to claim that it > > was > > > his own design. These boats apparently don't sail anywhere near as > > > well because of the changes in the underbody design. Tom said he > > > looked into suing him but the builder apparently only personally > > owned > > > some tools and a pickup truck, so there wasn't going to be any > > gain. > > > > > > > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was > > > wrong with > > > > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the > > shrouds > > > since the > > > > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have > > been > > > a case > > > > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer > > though! :). > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of sae140 > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:02 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little > > > confusion. The > > > > > kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the > > more modern > > > > > versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by > > Blondie > > > Hasler. > > > > > Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. > > This is > > > > > probably why it's more popular. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The differences between the Hasler-Mcleod and the Colvin sails > > are > > > > principally those of shape, and sheeting methods. Colvin's masts > > are > > > > not structurally stayed - the stays are employed principally as > > > > anti-whip devices. > > > > > > > > Tabernacles ARE possible with unstayed masts, as are the use of > > > > light-air foresails. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > 28/2008 9:20 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 18738|18518|2008-10-31 12:19:51|Carl Anderson|Re: Wire halyards|Wire halyard winches are considered by many to be the MOST DANGEROUS THING that you can possibly put on a boat!! You should be looking at doing a rope to wire splice and use "regular" winches on the rope tail. With the advent of very low stretch synthetic rope, I have gone with rope halyards myself and put the large sheaves at the masthead as recommended by Brent so I have options in the future. Carl theboilerflue wrote: > > > hey brent what are you using as a halyard winch to gather wire rope? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in > > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too small > > diameter. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots on > > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard may > > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving and > > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your options > > > open, small ones don't > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "silascrosby" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron halyards and > > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps time for > > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going offshore > > > again. > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in > > > the > > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a > > > lot of > > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to > > > Tonga > > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18739|18518|2008-10-31 12:41:02|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Wire halyards|I'd think gasoline would be the most dangerous thing, but perhaps you could elaborate about the problem you see with wire halyard winches, because there are a lot of candy asses out their putting warning labels everything in the store and I'm not going to where safety glasses with using a caulking gun.?? (How's that for a run on sentence.) --Doug J Tulsa Ok -----Original Message----- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:19 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Wire halyards Wire halyard winches are considered by many to be the MOST DANGEROUS THING that you can possibly put on a boat!! You should be looking at doing a rope to wire splice and use "regular" winches on the rope tail. With the advent of very low stretch synthetic rope, I have gone with rope halyards myself and put the large sheaves at the masthead as recommended by Brent so I have options in the future. Carl theboilerflue wrote: > > > hey brent what are you using as a halyard winch to gather wire rope? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in > > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too small > > diameter. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots on > > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard may > > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving and > > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your options > > > open, small ones don't > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "silascrosby" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron halyards and > > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps time for > > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going offshore > > > again. > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in > > > the > > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a > > > lot of > > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to > > > Tonga > > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18740|18641|2008-10-31 12:54:46|brentswain38|Re: Gaff Rig|I think a kid in Oregon bought it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > speaking of altered designs, almost a year ago now there was a a bruce > roberts i think that had been "brent-ed" for sale for like 7000 or > something like that. The cabin house had been changed and maybe a twin > keel had been put on i can't remember now i was interested cause it > was so cheap (that may not have beeen all that great however). I think > it was in richmond it was a consideration of mine when i was buying my > boat my alex. Does anyone know what happened to it? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > Brent, I didn't want to mention names because I have no personal > > knowledge of the people or situation. > > > > However, Jake Fehrs is the person Tom was referring to when he told me > > that his Gazelle design was altered to avoid payment of royalties. I > > don't know about the other shortcomings and I'm happy to take your > > word for them but I'll never buy a hull built by Fehrs. > > > > I personally know a couple of Gazelle owners, plus a person who had > > the slip next to Dick Johnson, owner for over 30 years of MIGRANT, the > > second Gazelle built. Dick sailed that boat for 30 years all over the > > South Pacific. Say what you like about some Gazelles and some owners > > but the original design does sail. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Those BC boats were built by either Foulkes of Fehrs. They a were > > > ten guage plate , painted outside only welded outside only and the > > > weld mostly grouind off for cosmetic reasons. They usualy rusted out > > > from the inside, as the inside was rarely painted, only foamed over > > > bare steel. They were disasters, but still sell for high prices in > > > some cases. Friends tried sailing south, and finding it didn't have > > > a hope in hell of self steering, gave up, and sold the boat. Other > > > friends sailed on to Xmas Island, taking 76 days for the voyage, > > > and sold her cheap there. > > > They continue to give steel boats a bad name. > > > As far as I know , the builders have no offshore cruising > > > experience, and the boats are an example of people with no offshore > > > experience redesigning boats. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Probably so. If you read Tom's books on steel boat building, you'll > > > > find a section where he gives you the math and figures on different > > > > types of masts and their fastening methods. > > > > > > > > His masts typically (for the size vessels we're discussing) are > > > either > > > > 5" Sched 40 aluminium or 4" Sched 10 steel. Both stayed, both > > > either > > > > keel stepped or stepped/locked in a tabernacle which is keel > > > stepped, > > > > so the mast is effectively keel stepped anyway. I don't recall any > > > of > > > > Tom's designs with free standing masts but I'm a long way from my > > > > library ATM. I do know that he added a spreader high up on his > > > > ANTELOPE design which was originally junk rigged and then changed > > > to a > > > > gaff schooner rig. The plans I got from him with the junk schooner > > > rig > > > > for a Witch show that he added a spreader here, too. I've never got > > > > around to asking him why; it doesn't show on my rigging plans for > > > the > > > > gaff ketch or gaff schooner (I think...). > > > > > > > > Euler's Formula will tell you why it's a real good idea to have a > > > > stayed mast. You need to go to a lot bigger section to get the same > > > > stiffness. > > > > > > > > FWIW there was a builder in British Columbia who built a number of > > > > Gazelles but deviated from the plans sufficiently to claim that it > > > was > > > > his own design. These boats apparently don't sail anywhere near as > > > > well because of the changes in the underbody design. Tom said he > > > > looked into suing him but the builder apparently only personally > > > owned > > > > some tools and a pickup truck, so there wasn't going to be any > > > gain. > > > > > > > > > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was > > > > wrong with > > > > > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the > > > shrouds > > > > since the > > > > > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have > > > been > > > > a case > > > > > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer > > > though! :). > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of sae140 > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:02 AM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little > > > > confusion. The > > > > > > kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the > > > more modern > > > > > > versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by > > > Blondie > > > > Hasler. > > > > > > Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. > > > This is > > > > > > probably why it's more popular. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The differences between the Hasler-Mcleod and the Colvin sails > > > are > > > > > principally those of shape, and sheeting methods. Colvin's masts > > > are > > > > > not structurally stayed - the stays are employed principally as > > > > > anti-whip devices. > > > > > > > > > > Tabernacles ARE possible with unstayed masts, as are the use of > > > > > light-air foresails. > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > 28/2008 9:20 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18741|18641|2008-10-31 12:58:05|brentswain38|Re: Gaff Rig|Steve Rankin put a wheelhouse on his gazelle between the aft cabin and the forecabin making a huge improvement in accomodation and comfort. He did it in steel which made it a bit tender. In aluminium it would have been even better. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Brent, I didn't want to mention names because I have no personal > knowledge of the people or situation. > > However, Jake Fehrs is the person Tom was referring to when he told me > that his Gazelle design was altered to avoid payment of royalties. I > don't know about the other shortcomings and I'm happy to take your > word for them but I'll never buy a hull built by Fehrs. > > I personally know a couple of Gazelle owners, plus a person who had > the slip next to Dick Johnson, owner for over 30 years of MIGRANT, the > second Gazelle built. Dick sailed that boat for 30 years all over the > South Pacific. Say what you like about some Gazelles and some owners > but the original design does sail. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Those BC boats were built by either Foulkes of Fehrs. They a were > > ten guage plate , painted outside only welded outside only and the > > weld mostly grouind off for cosmetic reasons. They usualy rusted out > > from the inside, as the inside was rarely painted, only foamed over > > bare steel. They were disasters, but still sell for high prices in > > some cases. Friends tried sailing south, and finding it didn't have > > a hope in hell of self steering, gave up, and sold the boat. Other > > friends sailed on to Xmas Island, taking 76 days for the voyage, > > and sold her cheap there. > > They continue to give steel boats a bad name. > > As far as I know , the builders have no offshore cruising > > experience, and the boats are an example of people with no offshore > > experience redesigning boats. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > Probably so. If you read Tom's books on steel boat building, you'll > > > find a section where he gives you the math and figures on different > > > types of masts and their fastening methods. > > > > > > His masts typically (for the size vessels we're discussing) are > > either > > > 5" Sched 40 aluminium or 4" Sched 10 steel. Both stayed, both > > either > > > keel stepped or stepped/locked in a tabernacle which is keel > > stepped, > > > so the mast is effectively keel stepped anyway. I don't recall any > > of > > > Tom's designs with free standing masts but I'm a long way from my > > > library ATM. I do know that he added a spreader high up on his > > > ANTELOPE design which was originally junk rigged and then changed > > to a > > > gaff schooner rig. The plans I got from him with the junk schooner > > rig > > > for a Witch show that he added a spreader here, too. I've never got > > > around to asking him why; it doesn't show on my rigging plans for > > the > > > gaff ketch or gaff schooner (I think...). > > > > > > Euler's Formula will tell you why it's a real good idea to have a > > > stayed mast. You need to go to a lot bigger section to get the same > > > stiffness. > > > > > > FWIW there was a builder in British Columbia who built a number of > > > Gazelles but deviated from the plans sufficiently to claim that it > > was > > > his own design. These boats apparently don't sail anywhere near as > > > well because of the changes in the underbody design. Tom said he > > > looked into suing him but the builder apparently only personally > > owned > > > some tools and a pickup truck, so there wasn't going to be any > > gain. > > > > > > > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something was > > > wrong with > > > > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the > > shrouds > > > since the > > > > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could have > > been > > > a case > > > > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer > > though! :). > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of sae140 > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:02 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little > > > confusion. The > > > > > kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the > > more modern > > > > > versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by > > Blondie > > > Hasler. > > > > > Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. > > This is > > > > > probably why it's more popular. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The differences between the Hasler-Mcleod and the Colvin sails > > are > > > > principally those of shape, and sheeting methods. Colvin's masts > > are > > > > not structurally stayed - the stays are employed principally as > > > > anti-whip devices. > > > > > > > > Tabernacles ARE possible with unstayed masts, as are the use of > > > > light-air foresails. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > 28/2008 9:20 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 18742|18518|2008-10-31 13:00:33|brentswain38|Re: Wire halyards|Was that a stainless halyard? They have a high failure rate . Galv is far less prone to metal fatigue . This is another arguement for as big a sheave as possible , running thru the mast. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too small > diameter. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots on > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard may > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving and > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your options > > open, small ones don't > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > wrote: > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron halyards and > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps time for > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going offshore > > again. > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in > > the > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a > > lot of > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to > > Tonga > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18743|18655|2008-10-31 13:03:32|brentswain38|Re: V.W. diesel|Oversized engines can be run at much lower speeds. A mechanic I know runs his VW at 2,000 rpm. 3 to 1 gearboxes mean a much larger prop. 2 1/2 to 1 works on most VWs I know. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > I hate to say it, Martin, but off of Ebay. I'm negotiating on a type > 16A at the moment. The seller said she got her 2 from > > sally@... > > As I said there is a minimum order but I suggest you drop a line to > the email address and see what happens. > > I've said it before but it bears repeating. There are engines > everywhere. Marine g/boxes are harder to find. Most modern engines are > running at 3000+ rpm so you need at least a 3:1 box. Find the box > first and then the engine. These boxes don't have a bell housing so > need some sort of sub-frame to align their input shaft with the > engine, but that's not hard to do. A lot easier than mating something > with a different size bell housing to an existing motor. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Peter, > > > > where did you get yours? in australia? > > > > Marin. > > ________________________________ > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: peter_d_wiley@ > > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:50:13 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel > > > > > > > > >> Where do you buy those chinese gearboxes? > > >> I found their website but still cannot locate an American > distributor. > > > > > > No idea - I'm in Australia. > > > > > > The address below sent me a document giving some details on the Type > > > 16A so I'd suggest asking her for a US distributor. > > > > > > zjjddq2008@ > > > > > > As I said I'm pretty happy with my Type 06 box and I expect to have a > > > 16A one in the next month or so. > > > > > > Here is some data - I did a cut & paste from a Word doc so it doesn't > > > line up at all. Hopefully you can figure it out. I'm trying to get a > > > better manual. > > > > > > > http://www.alibaba.com/product- gs/209224719/marine_gear_box_for_marine.html > > > > > > Regards, Peter > > > > > > Type 06 Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing primarily in > > > reduction as follows: > > > Actualreduction ratio > > > Modle > > > Nominal reduction ratio > > > Ahead drive > > > Astern drive > > > 3.5 ZF 06 > > > 3.5:1 > > > 3.5:1 > > > 3.28:1 > > > 3 ZF 06 > > > 3:01 > > > 3.05:1 > > > 3.28:1 > > > 2.5 ZF 06 > > > 2.5:1 > > > 2.52:1 > > > 2.50:1 > > > The Type 16A Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing > > > primarily in reduction as follows: > > > Modle > > > Nominal reduction ratio > > > Ahead drive > > > Astern drive > > > 4 ZF 16A > > > 4:01 > > > 3.83:1 > > > 3.61:1 > > > 3.5 ZF 16A > > > 3.5:00 > > > 3.35:1 > > > 3.15:1 > > > 3 ZF 16A > > > 3:01 > > > 2.95:1 > > > 2.95:1 > > > 2.5 ZF 16A > > > 2.5:1 > > > 2.48:1 > > > 2.47:1 > > > 2 ZF 16 A > > > 2:01 > > > 2.07:1 > > > 2.16:1 > > > > > > TECHNICAL PARAMETERS AND SPECIFICATIONS > > > Item > > > Description > > > Symbols > > > Unit > > > Type06 > > > Type16A > > > 1 > > > Rated transmission power > > > P/n > > > KW/ > > > (r/min) > > > 0.0118 > > > 0.0044 > > > 2 > > > Rated speed of input shaft > > > n > > > (r/min) > > > 2000 > > > 2100 > > > 3 > > > Rated propeller thrust > > > Type16 > > > N.M > > > 112.7 > > > 42.1 > > > > > > Type > > > 06 > > > 16A > > > Weight > > > 70Kg > > > 100Kg > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > | 18744|18696|2008-10-31 13:04:51|brentswain38|Re: sails|Just shackle on a wire pennant to make the wire part of you halyard longer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > If I remember it the sail is 2 foot shorter in luf. > > --- On Thu, 10/30/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sails > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 10:56 PM > > > > > > > What is two ft shorter , the sail or the furler? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams > wrote: > > > > I picked up a roller furling genoa last year for $200 on ebay all > it needs is replace the sun gaurd strip. I even got the old SS roler > furler with it. > > Since it is about 2 foot shorter than the plans could I make that > up with sun gaurd strip? > > Aaron > > > > --- On Thu, 10/30/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 11:11 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sew your own sun strip on . A good hand crank sewing machine is > one > > of the greatest money savers on any cruising boat. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Paul Wilson" > > wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>Used sails would be a tiny fraction the cost of materials > for > > any > > > new sail of the same area. > > > > > > > > > There are incredibly good deals on good used sails. I just > bought > > a used > > > roller furling genoa for $400. It's in great shape. If I take > > care, it > > > should last at least 5 years, probably 10. The last time I had a > > new > > > acrylic sun strip sewn on to an existing sail, it cost almost > that > > much. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18745|18518|2008-10-31 13:05:33|Carl Anderson|Re: Wire halyards|I have read many first hand accounts on the internet (and in cruising books) from cruisers regarding having severe personal injuries (broken hand or arm or even worse but what could be worse than having a broken hand or arm while at sea?) from using wire winches onboard. Seems that all is OK until you have to release them under tension. That is when they become VERY dangerous especially compared to a modern sailboat rope winch. I guess that refueling from deck on a gas powered boat while underway at sea would be quite dangerous as well. Its just that I've read SO much that warns against using this type of wire winch that I couldn't think that anyone would be using one in this day & age but then maybe they are really very cheap comparatively and so is a gas engine compared to a diesel so that many with limited budgets will go that route and install a gas engine (preferably from an auto or a truck but I guess that a tractor or even a hay bailer would work in a pinch) and then go and get a wire winch or two for their halyards. (I can do a run-on sentence too!) ;) Carl djackson99@... wrote: > > > I'd think gasoline would be the most dangerous thing, but perhaps you > could elaborate about the problem you see with wire halyard winches, > because there are a lot of candy asses out their putting warning labels > everything in the store and I'm not going to where safety glasses with > using a caulking gun.?? (How's that for a run on sentence.) > > --Doug J > Tulsa Ok > | 18746|18518|2008-10-31 13:07:32|brentswain38|Re: Wire halyards|I use a rope tail on a regular winch. Just put an eye on one end of your wire , cable clamp an eye on the other end and put a rope thru the eye. Hoist your sail, then put the eye just above the winch, then nicopres the eye in. That way when you hoist the sail all the way, the eye is just above the winch and the wire never touches the winch. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > hey brent what are you using as a halyard winch to gather wire rope? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in > > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too small > > diameter. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots on > > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard may > > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving and > > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your options > > > open, small ones don't > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron halyards and > > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps time for > > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going offshore > > > again. > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in > > > the > > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a > > > lot of > > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to > > > Tonga > > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18747|18518|2008-10-31 13:09:40|brentswain38|Re: Wire halyards|Wire reel winchees are extremly dangerous and should never be used . There is absolutely no advantage to them. They also make hoisting a sail extremely slow. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I have read many first hand accounts on the internet (and in cruising > books) from cruisers regarding having severe personal injuries (broken > hand or arm or even worse but what could be worse than having a broken > hand or arm while at sea?) from using wire winches onboard. Seems that > all is OK until you have to release them under tension. That is when > they become VERY dangerous especially compared to a modern sailboat rope > winch. > > I guess that refueling from deck on a gas powered boat while underway at > sea would be quite dangerous as well. > > Its just that I've read SO much that warns against using this type of > wire winch that I couldn't think that anyone would be using one in this > day & age but then maybe they are really very cheap comparatively and so > is a gas engine compared to a diesel so that many with limited budgets > will go that route and install a gas engine (preferably from an auto or > a truck but I guess that a tractor or even a hay bailer would work in a > pinch) and then go and get a wire winch or two for their halyards. (I > can do a run-on sentence too!) ;) > > Carl > > > djackson99@... wrote: > > > > > > I'd think gasoline would be the most dangerous thing, but perhaps you > > could elaborate about the problem you see with wire halyard winches, > > because there are a lot of candy asses out their putting warning labels > > everything in the store and I'm not going to where safety glasses with > > using a caulking gun.?? (How's that for a run on sentence.) > > > > --Doug J > > Tulsa Ok > > > | 18748|18518|2008-10-31 13:43:23|David Frantz|Re: Wire halyards|It would seem to me that if the winch can't manage wire tension then you have the wrong winch. Now I make no bones about the fact that I read this forum to learn about boating and suffer from a lack of practical experience but that does mean I have spent a lot of time with ropes and chains of all sorts. The number one thing to realize is that the load you are moving will have a greater influence on that rope than your little body will. In any event I'm having a hard time imagining how a wire rope is any more dangerous than any other device. So what I'm asking the group here is this: is this danger real and how does it manafest itself. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 31, 2008, at 1:05 PM, Carl Anderson wrote: > I have read many first hand accounts on the internet (and in cruising > books) from cruisers regarding having severe personal injuries (broken > hand or arm or even worse but what could be worse than having a broken > hand or arm while at sea?) from using wire winches onboard. Seems > that > all is OK until you have to release them under tension. That is when > they become VERY dangerous especially compared to a modern sailboat > rope > winch. > > I guess that refueling from deck on a gas powered boat while > underway at > sea would be quite dangerous as well. > > Its just that I've read SO much that warns against using this type of > wire winch that I couldn't think that anyone would be using one in > this > day & age but then maybe they are really very cheap comparatively > and so > is a gas engine compared to a diesel so that many with limited budgets > will go that route and install a gas engine (preferably from an auto > or > a truck but I guess that a tractor or even a hay bailer would work > in a > pinch) and then go and get a wire winch or two for their halyards. (I > can do a run-on sentence too!) ;) > > Carl > > > djackson99@... wrote: >> >> >> I'd think gasoline would be the most dangerous thing, but perhaps you >> could elaborate about the problem you see with wire halyard winches, >> because there are a lot of candy asses out their putting warning >> labels >> everything in the store and I'm not going to where safety glasses >> with >> using a caulking gun.?? (How's that for a run on sentence.) >> >> --Doug J >> Tulsa Ok >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18749|18518|2008-10-31 14:08:37|David Frantz|Re: Wire halyards|Hi Brent Are you talking about the type of winch that rolls the wire up on a drum here. Sort of like a come-a-long? Because honestly I see a lot of commercial boats using such to hoist sails. Where does the danger come in as opposed to other methods? A lot of questions; but my first thought is that keeping this line on a drum, that is dedicated to it, would be the safest and most reliable way hoist a sail. Maybe I'm missing something or maybe you are talking about winches that would free wheel when dropping a sail. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 31, 2008, at 1:09 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Wire reel winchees are extremly dangerous and should never be used . > There is absolutely no advantage to them. They also make hoisting a > sail extremely slow. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: >> >> I have read many first hand accounts on the internet (and in > cruising >> books) from cruisers regarding having severe personal injuries > (broken >> hand or arm or even worse but what could be worse than having a > broken >> hand or arm while at sea?) from using wire winches onboard. Seems > that >> all is OK until you have to release them under tension. That is > when >> they become VERY dangerous especially compared to a modern > sailboat rope >> winch. >> >> I guess that refueling from deck on a gas powered boat while > underway at >> sea would be quite dangerous as well. >> >> Its just that I've read SO much that warns against using this type > of >> wire winch that I couldn't think that anyone would be using one in > this >> day & age but then maybe they are really very cheap comparatively > and so >> is a gas engine compared to a diesel so that many with limited > budgets >> will go that route and install a gas engine (preferably from an > auto or >> a truck but I guess that a tractor or even a hay bailer would work > in a >> pinch) and then go and get a wire winch or two for their > halyards. (I >> can do a run-on sentence too!) ;) >> >> Carl >> >> >> djackson99@... wrote: >>> >>> >>> I'd think gasoline would be the most dangerous thing, but > perhaps you >>> could elaborate about the problem you see with wire halyard > winches, >>> because there are a lot of candy asses out their putting warning > labels >>> everything in the store and I'm not going to where safety > glasses with >>> using a caulking gun.?? (How's that for a run on sentence.) >>> >>> --Doug J >>> Tulsa Ok >>> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18750|18518|2008-10-31 14:19:43|silascrosby|Re: Wire halyards|Yep, Stainless around maybe a 2" diam sheave. A bad design, replaced in NZ. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Was that a stainless halyard? They have a high failure rate . Galv > is far less prone to metal fatigue . This is another arguement for > as big a sheave as possible , running thru the mast. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in > > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too > small > > diameter. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots > on > > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard > may > > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving > and > > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your > options > > > open, small ones don't > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron > halyards and > > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps > time for > > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going > offshore > > > again. > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast > sheaves in > > > the > > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves > on > > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had > a > > > lot of > > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I > switched to > > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip > to > > > Tonga > > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18751|18518|2008-10-31 14:46:28|Carl Anderson|Re: Wire halyards|My masthead sheaves are 7" dia. (inside of the groove) and stand proud of the mast on both sides. The sheave box has all edges that the halyards may touch rounded considerably. I'm using NER T-900 for my halyards. Carl silascrosby wrote: > > > Yep, Stainless around maybe a 2" diam sheave. A bad design, replaced > in NZ. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Was that a stainless halyard? They have a high failure rate . Galv > > is far less prone to metal fatigue . This is another arguement for > > as big a sheave as possible , running thru the mast. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "silascrosby" > > wrote: > > > > > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in > > > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too > > small > > > diameter. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots > > on > > > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard > > may > > > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving > > and > > > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your > > options > > > > open, small ones don't > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "silascrosby" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron > > halyards and > > > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps > > time for > > > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going > > offshore > > > > again. > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast > > sheaves in > > > > the > > > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves > > on > > > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had > > a > > > > lot of > > > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I > > switched to > > > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip > > to > > > > Tonga > > > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18752|18518|2008-10-31 14:52:11|silascrosby|Re: Wire halyards|The old wire halyard reel winches were pretty good and I used them for several years in racing/cruising boats, coastal and offshore. The only danger as I remember is if the winch handle is left in the winch when the brake is released.Then the handle fans around in a fairly dangerous way potentially removing teeth or vitality. Direct drive with no ratcheting.Stand back! There are probably some cheap ones available these days in used stores. There are a number of things that are probably nearly as dangerous on sailboats, but are tolerable. My deck-mounted anchor chain windlass would likely not meet workers compensation board rules (I have very few employees on my boat, LOL), so I try to keep my digits well clear, and it moves quite slowly but has ,on occasion, very high loads. The rope-to-wire splice was used more than a crimped eye connection to allow smooth travel over sheaves and through exit-boxes etc. The splice was never meant to take the full load so lengths had to be planned carefully - it was a pain to plan ( like with mainsail reefs) and a pain to make. The wire halyard was nearly essential on tall-masted boats though because of the high stretch and low durability rope available until 30 yrs ago. My 15 yr old dacron halyards and sheets have amazed me with their durability. They are not even low-stretch, just garden-variety double braid dacron rope. I just sweat them up a few inches after 10 minutes or so of sailing. No scallops in my luff! As Brent points out , though, galv wire has a couple of applications that are apparently at least as good as rope,possibly better. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Brent > > Are you talking about the type of winch that rolls the wire up on a > drum here. Sort of like a come-a-long? Because honestly I see a > lot of commercial boats using such to hoist sails. Where does the > danger come in as opposed to other methods? > > A lot of questions; but my first thought is that keeping this line on > a drum, that is dedicated to it, would be the safest and most reliable > way hoist a sail. Maybe I'm missing something or maybe you are > talking about winches that would free wheel when dropping a sail. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Oct 31, 2008, at 1:09 PM, brentswain38 > wrote: > > > Wire reel winchees are extremly dangerous and should never be used . > > There is absolutely no advantage to them. They also make hoisting a > > sail extremely slow. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > >> > >> I have read many first hand accounts on the internet (and in > > cruising > >> books) from cruisers regarding having severe personal injuries > > (broken > >> hand or arm or even worse but what could be worse than having a > > broken > >> hand or arm while at sea?) from using wire winches onboard. Seems > > that > >> all is OK until you have to release them under tension. That is > > when > >> they become VERY dangerous especially compared to a modern > > sailboat rope > >> winch. > >> > >> I guess that refueling from deck on a gas powered boat while > > underway at > >> sea would be quite dangerous as well. > >> > >> Its just that I've read SO much that warns against using this type > > of > >> wire winch that I couldn't think that anyone would be using one in > > this > >> day & age but then maybe they are really very cheap comparatively > > and so > >> is a gas engine compared to a diesel so that many with limited > > budgets > >> will go that route and install a gas engine (preferably from an > > auto or > >> a truck but I guess that a tractor or even a hay bailer would work > > in a > >> pinch) and then go and get a wire winch or two for their > > halyards. (I > >> can do a run-on sentence too!) ;) > >> > >> Carl > >> > >> > >> djackson99@ wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> I'd think gasoline would be the most dangerous thing, but > > perhaps you > >>> could elaborate about the problem you see with wire halyard > > winches, > >>> because there are a lot of candy asses out their putting warning > > labels > >>> everything in the store and I'm not going to where safety > > glasses with > >>> using a caulking gun.?? (How's that for a run on sentence.) > >>> > >>> --Doug J > >>> Tulsa Ok > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 18753|18518|2008-10-31 15:01:38|silascrosby|Re: Wire halyards|Carl, 1.How did you pick this particular rope? 2. What are you using for sheets ? Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > My masthead sheaves are 7" dia. (inside of the groove) and stand proud > of the mast on both sides. The sheave box has all edges that the > halyards may touch rounded considerably. I'm using NER T-900 for my > halyards. > > Carl > > > silascrosby wrote: > > > > > > Yep, Stainless around maybe a 2" diam sheave. A bad design, replaced > > in NZ. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Was that a stainless halyard? They have a high failure rate . Galv > > > is far less prone to metal fatigue . This is another arguement for > > > as big a sheave as possible , running thru the mast. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "silascrosby" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in > > > > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too > > > small > > > > diameter. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots > > > on > > > > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard > > > may > > > > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > > > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving > > > and > > > > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your > > > options > > > > > open, small ones don't > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "silascrosby" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron > > > halyards and > > > > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps > > > time for > > > > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going > > > offshore > > > > > again. > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast > > > sheaves in > > > > > the > > > > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves > > > on > > > > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had > > > a > > > > > lot of > > > > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I > > > switched to > > > > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip > > > to > > > > > Tonga > > > > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18754|18518|2008-10-31 15:20:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wire halyards|On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 02:08:18PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > A lot of questions; but my first thought is that keeping this line on > a drum, that is dedicated to it, would be the safest and most reliable > way hoist a sail. Maybe I'm missing something or maybe you are > talking about winches that would free wheel when dropping a sail. I've been on a couple of boats with traditional "death winches" - i.e., those designed to handle wire in much the same way that the standard rope winches handle line. These are well named, and have a history of injuring people; even though there were a lot of them made, it's a bad, dangerous design, and whoever came up with the idea should have had his testicles jammed into one. The problem is that wire has essentially no pliability or surface roughness - and the design of the winch requires friction, which comes from the above two qualities. Getting a wire to grip the winch reliably requires a large number of wraps, a _perfect_ amount of tailing tension without any interruption whatsoever, and serrations on the drum that will either damage the wire (hel-l-lo, meathooks!) or will themselves be eroded over time (meaning that eventually your wire will slip anyway.) But that - believe it or not - is not the most dangerous part. That's reserved for slacking off the halyard: the brakes on these are *always* an idiotically-rickety jam-screw arrangement, such that the drum is either locked _or_ completely freewheeling. Releasing the drum means fiddling with that screw using utmost caution and somehow managing, every time, not to have it burn your hands or snatch off a body part (leather gloves do help but do not guarantee that you won't be hurt). As far as I know, there's no maintenance that can be done to improve this - although there are probably modifications you could make if you dare. I have no doubt that a good engineer could design a well-working wire winch using a similar action - but I've never heard of one. Brent's description of rigging a wire halyard is the only way that I know of to have a wire halyard without the associated craziness. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18755|18655|2008-10-31 19:20:31|martin demers|Re: V.W. diesel|HI, do you know of any other sources beside Lancing marine who offers marinising kits for the VW diesel, maybe used? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:03:29 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel > > > Oversized engines can be run at much lower speeds. A mechanic I know > runs his VW at 2,000 rpm. 3 to 1 gearboxes mean a much larger prop. > 2 1/2 to 1 works on most VWs I know. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: >> >> I hate to say it, Martin, but off of Ebay. I'm negotiating on a > type >> 16A at the moment. The seller said she got her 2 from >> >> sally@... >> >> As I said there is a minimum order but I suggest you drop a line to >> the email address and see what happens. >> >> I've said it before but it bears repeating. There are engines >> everywhere. Marine g/boxes are harder to find. Most modern engines > are >> running at 3000+ rpm so you need at least a 3:1 box. Find the box >> first and then the engine. These boxes don't have a bell housing so >> need some sort of sub-frame to align their input shaft with the >> engine, but that's not hard to do. A lot easier than mating > something >> with a different size bell housing to an existing motor. >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Peter, >>> >>> where did you get yours? in australia? >>> >>> Marin. >>> ________________________________ >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> From: peter_d_wiley@ >>>> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:50:13 +0000 >>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel >>>> >>>> >>>>> Where do you buy those chinese gearboxes? >>>>> I found their website but still cannot locate an American >> distributor. >>>> >>>> No idea - I'm in Australia. >>>> >>>> The address below sent me a document giving some details on > the Type >>>> 16A so I'd suggest asking her for a US distributor. >>>> >>>> zjjddq2008@ >>>> >>>> As I said I'm pretty happy with my Type 06 box and I expect to > have a >>>> 16A one in the next month or so. >>>> >>>> Here is some data - I did a cut & paste from a Word doc so it > doesn't >>>> line up at all. Hopefully you can figure it out. I'm trying to > get a >>>> better manual. >>>> >>>> >> http://www.alibaba.com/product- > gs/209224719/marine_gear_box_for_marine.html >>>> >>>> Regards, Peter >>>> >>>> Type 06 Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing > primarily in >>>> reduction as follows: >>>> Actualreduction ratio >>>> Modle >>>> Nominal reduction ratio >>>> Ahead drive >>>> Astern drive >>>> 3.5 ZF 06 >>>> 3.5:1 >>>> 3.5:1 >>>> 3.28:1 >>>> 3 ZF 06 >>>> 3:01 >>>> 3.05:1 >>>> 3.28:1 >>>> 2.5 ZF 06 >>>> 2.5:1 >>>> 2.52:1 >>>> 2.50:1 >>>> The Type 16A Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing >>>> primarily in reduction as follows: >>>> Modle >>>> Nominal reduction ratio >>>> Ahead drive >>>> Astern drive >>>> 4 ZF 16A >>>> 4:01 >>>> 3.83:1 >>>> 3.61:1 >>>> 3.5 ZF 16A >>>> 3.5:00 >>>> 3.35:1 >>>> 3.15:1 >>>> 3 ZF 16A >>>> 3:01 >>>> 2.95:1 >>>> 2.95:1 >>>> 2.5 ZF 16A >>>> 2.5:1 >>>> 2.48:1 >>>> 2.47:1 >>>> 2 ZF 16 A >>>> 2:01 >>>> 2.07:1 >>>> 2.16:1 >>>> >>>> TECHNICAL PARAMETERS AND SPECIFICATIONS >>>> Item >>>> Description >>>> Symbols >>>> Unit >>>> Type06 >>>> Type16A >>>> 1 >>>> Rated transmission power >>>> P/n >>>> KW/ >>>> (r/min) >>>> 0.0118 >>>> 0.0044 >>>> 2 >>>> Rated speed of input shaft >>>> n >>>> (r/min) >>>> 2000 >>>> 2100 >>>> 3 >>>> Rated propeller thrust >>>> Type16 >>>> N.M >>>> 112.7 >>>> 42.1 >>>> >>>> Type >>>> 06 >>>> 16A >>>> Weight >>>> 70Kg >>>> 100Kg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18756|18655|2008-10-31 19:23:06|martin demers|Re: V.W. diesel|Hi, Do you know any other sources beside Lancing marine that offers marinising kits for VW diesel? Maybe used? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:03:29 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel > > > Oversized engines can be run at much lower speeds. A mechanic I know > runs his VW at 2,000 rpm. 3 to 1 gearboxes mean a much larger prop. > 2 1/2 to 1 works on most VWs I know. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: >> >> I hate to say it, Martin, but off of Ebay. I'm negotiating on a > type >> 16A at the moment. The seller said she got her 2 from >> >> sally@... >> >> As I said there is a minimum order but I suggest you drop a line to >> the email address and see what happens. >> >> I've said it before but it bears repeating. There are engines >> everywhere. Marine g/boxes are harder to find. Most modern engines > are >> running at 3000+ rpm so you need at least a 3:1 box. Find the box >> first and then the engine. These boxes don't have a bell housing so >> need some sort of sub-frame to align their input shaft with the >> engine, but that's not hard to do. A lot easier than mating > something >> with a different size bell housing to an existing motor. >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Peter, >>> >>> where did you get yours? in australia? >>> >>> Marin. >>> ________________________________ >>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> From: peter_d_wiley@ >>>> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:50:13 +0000 >>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel >>>> >>>> >>>>> Where do you buy those chinese gearboxes? >>>>> I found their website but still cannot locate an American >> distributor. >>>> >>>> No idea - I'm in Australia. >>>> >>>> The address below sent me a document giving some details on > the Type >>>> 16A so I'd suggest asking her for a US distributor. >>>> >>>> zjjddq2008@ >>>> >>>> As I said I'm pretty happy with my Type 06 box and I expect to > have a >>>> 16A one in the next month or so. >>>> >>>> Here is some data - I did a cut & paste from a Word doc so it > doesn't >>>> line up at all. Hopefully you can figure it out. I'm trying to > get a >>>> better manual. >>>> >>>> >> http://www.alibaba.com/product- > gs/209224719/marine_gear_box_for_marine.html >>>> >>>> Regards, Peter >>>> >>>> Type 06 Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing > primarily in >>>> reduction as follows: >>>> Actualreduction ratio >>>> Modle >>>> Nominal reduction ratio >>>> Ahead drive >>>> Astern drive >>>> 3.5 ZF 06 >>>> 3.5:1 >>>> 3.5:1 >>>> 3.28:1 >>>> 3 ZF 06 >>>> 3:01 >>>> 3.05:1 >>>> 3.28:1 >>>> 2.5 ZF 06 >>>> 2.5:1 >>>> 2.52:1 >>>> 2.50:1 >>>> The Type 16A Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing >>>> primarily in reduction as follows: >>>> Modle >>>> Nominal reduction ratio >>>> Ahead drive >>>> Astern drive >>>> 4 ZF 16A >>>> 4:01 >>>> 3.83:1 >>>> 3.61:1 >>>> 3.5 ZF 16A >>>> 3.5:00 >>>> 3.35:1 >>>> 3.15:1 >>>> 3 ZF 16A >>>> 3:01 >>>> 2.95:1 >>>> 2.95:1 >>>> 2.5 ZF 16A >>>> 2.5:1 >>>> 2.48:1 >>>> 2.47:1 >>>> 2 ZF 16 A >>>> 2:01 >>>> 2.07:1 >>>> 2.16:1 >>>> >>>> TECHNICAL PARAMETERS AND SPECIFICATIONS >>>> Item >>>> Description >>>> Symbols >>>> Unit >>>> Type06 >>>> Type16A >>>> 1 >>>> Rated transmission power >>>> P/n >>>> KW/ >>>> (r/min) >>>> 0.0118 >>>> 0.0044 >>>> 2 >>>> Rated speed of input shaft >>>> n >>>> (r/min) >>>> 2000 >>>> 2100 >>>> 3 >>>> Rated propeller thrust >>>> Type16 >>>> N.M >>>> 112.7 >>>> 42.1 >>>> >>>> Type >>>> 06 >>>> 16A >>>> Weight >>>> 70Kg >>>> 100Kg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18757|18713|2008-10-31 19:50:50|svfrolic|Re: DIY roller furling|Thank you for the information. Looks like I will make a trip to the scrap yard soon:-). Do you know what this pipe with slot is used for so I would know where to look. I tried to Google it but with no success. I can always use regular pipe and cut the slot on the table saw then sand the edges but it might be tricky on the inside however I think I can make it. Matt| 18758|18518|2008-10-31 20:10:17|David Frantz|Re: Wire halyards|Ok I think we are on the same page now. Honestly what you describe does sound like poor design in a winch. I certainly could see where such a winch could do serious damage. I grew up in farm country where the use of winches is common. One solution that seems popular on manual winches was the use of a worm gear in the unit to prevent unconteoled back drive. Slow but very simple. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 31, 2008, at 2:52 PM, silascrosby wrote: > The old wire halyard reel winches were pretty good and I used them for > several years in racing/cruising boats, coastal and offshore. The only > danger as I remember is if the winch handle is left in the winch when > the brake is released.Then the handle fans around in a fairly > dangerous way potentially removing teeth or vitality. Direct drive > with no ratcheting.Stand back! There are probably some cheap ones > available these days in used stores. > There are a number of things that are probably nearly as dangerous on > sailboats, but are tolerable. My deck-mounted anchor chain windlass > would likely not meet workers compensation board rules (I have very > few employees on my boat, LOL), so I try to keep my digits well clear, > and it moves quite slowly but has ,on occasion, very high loads. > The rope-to-wire splice was used more than a crimped eye connection > to allow smooth travel over sheaves and through exit-boxes etc. The > splice was never meant to take the full load so lengths had to be > planned carefully - it was a pain to plan ( like with mainsail reefs) > and a pain to make. The wire halyard was nearly essential on > tall-masted boats though because of the high stretch and low > durability rope available until 30 yrs ago. > My 15 yr old dacron halyards and sheets have amazed me with their > durability. They are not even low-stretch, just garden-variety double > braid dacron rope. I just sweat them up a few inches after 10 minutes > or so of sailing. No scallops in my luff! > As Brent points out , though, galv wire has a couple of applications > that are apparently at least as good as rope,possibly better. > > Steve > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > wrote: >> >> Hi Brent >> >> Are you talking about the type of winch that rolls the wire up on a >> drum here. Sort of like a come-a-long? Because honestly I see a >> lot of commercial boats using such to hoist sails. Where does the >> danger come in as opposed to other methods? >> >> A lot of questions; but my first thought is that keeping this line on >> a drum, that is dedicated to it, would be the safest and most >> reliable >> way hoist a sail. Maybe I'm missing something or maybe you are >> talking about winches that would free wheel when dropping a sail. >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Oct 31, 2008, at 1:09 PM, brentswain38 >> wrote: >> >>> Wire reel winchees are extremly dangerous and should never be used . >>> There is absolutely no advantage to them. They also make hoisting a >>> sail extremely slow. >>> Brent >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: >>>> >>>> I have read many first hand accounts on the internet (and in >>> cruising >>>> books) from cruisers regarding having severe personal injuries >>> (broken >>>> hand or arm or even worse but what could be worse than having a >>> broken >>>> hand or arm while at sea?) from using wire winches onboard. Seems >>> that >>>> all is OK until you have to release them under tension. That is >>> when >>>> they become VERY dangerous especially compared to a modern >>> sailboat rope >>>> winch. >>>> >>>> I guess that refueling from deck on a gas powered boat while >>> underway at >>>> sea would be quite dangerous as well. >>>> >>>> Its just that I've read SO much that warns against using this type >>> of >>>> wire winch that I couldn't think that anyone would be using one in >>> this >>>> day & age but then maybe they are really very cheap comparatively >>> and so >>>> is a gas engine compared to a diesel so that many with limited >>> budgets >>>> will go that route and install a gas engine (preferably from an >>> auto or >>>> a truck but I guess that a tractor or even a hay bailer would work >>> in a >>>> pinch) and then go and get a wire winch or two for their >>> halyards. (I >>>> can do a run-on sentence too!) ;) >>>> >>>> Carl >>>> >>>> >>>> djackson99@ wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'd think gasoline would be the most dangerous thing, but >>> perhaps you >>>>> could elaborate about the problem you see with wire halyard >>> winches, >>>>> because there are a lot of candy asses out their putting warning >>> labels >>>>> everything in the store and I'm not going to where safety >>> glasses with >>>>> using a caulking gun.?? (How's that for a run on sentence.) >>>>> >>>>> --Doug J >>>>> Tulsa Ok >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>> unsubscribe@... >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 18759|18655|2008-10-31 23:47:01|T & D Cain|Re: V.W. diesel|Exactly which VW diesel are you considering? The essential parts are available from various suppliers. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of martin demers Sent: Saturday, 1 November 2008 08:51 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel HI, do you know of any other sources beside Lancing marine who offers marinising kits for the VW diesel, maybe used? Martin. ________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18760|18685|2008-11-01 03:01:19|Aaron Williams|Re: Boom for sale|I will take the boom and how would you like me to pay for it? --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boom for sale To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 9:24 AM Aaron, Yes, its the left-over piece of what we used for M.O.M. It is at Evan's place in Nanaimo right now. If you want it I'll have him keep it until then. Carl Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Carl > Is that the same as what you are using? > Would you be willing to hold it till Jan. I hope to be driving a truck > back to Alaska. > Aaron > > --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Carl Anderson > wrote: > > From: Carl Anderson > > Subject: [origamiboats] Boom for sale > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 8:20 AM > > I have a aluminum boom section for sale. > It is 8" X 4" X 16' with .180 wall thickness. > Also has track for internal slides. > Located in Nanaimo. > Asking $200. > > Here is link to a picture of it on our truck: > > http://www.moonflow erofmoab. com/images/ PB170045. JPG > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18761|18655|2008-11-01 05:19:14|peter_d_wiley|Re: V.W. diesel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Oversized engines can be run at much lower speeds. True but then you're installing a much bigger engine than you need or can possibly use, and likely not running it at the rpm to get max efficiency. I can't see the point if you can get something closer to ideal. However life is full of compromises so I wouldn't knock it. A mechanic I know > runs his VW at 2,000 rpm. 3 to 1 gearboxes mean a much larger prop. I don't see that as a problem. OK, there are practical limits to a prop aperture and a bigger prop might mean more drag. OTOH a bigger prop, turning more slowly, is a lot more efficient at transferring mechanical energy into thrust at the displacement hull speeds we're dealing with. A feathering 3 blade prop will cut the drag right down, at the cost of many $$$. I haven't been game to price one yet. > 2 1/2 to 1 works on most VWs I know. Which, at 2000 rpm, equates to a shaft speed of 800 rpm, which is pretty close to the rule of thumb of 100 rpm per knot of speed. Sounds pretty good to me. My Yanmar produces 20 HP at 1800 rpm and 30 HP at 2600 rpm. Those are continuous HP figures. I can ideally run a 3:1 box but anywhere from 2.5:1 to 4:1 will do by adjusting the prop size and pitch. PDW > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > I hate to say it, Martin, but off of Ebay. I'm negotiating on a > type > > 16A at the moment. The seller said she got her 2 from > > > > sally@ > > > > As I said there is a minimum order but I suggest you drop a line to > > the email address and see what happens. > > > > I've said it before but it bears repeating. There are engines > > everywhere. Marine g/boxes are harder to find. Most modern engines > are > > running at 3000+ rpm so you need at least a 3:1 box. Find the box > > first and then the engine. These boxes don't have a bell housing so > > need some sort of sub-frame to align their input shaft with the > > engine, but that's not hard to do. A lot easier than mating > something > > with a different size bell housing to an existing motor. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter, > > > > > > where did you get yours? in australia? > > > > > > Marin. > > > ________________________________ > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: peter_d_wiley@ > > > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:50:13 +0000 > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel > > > > > > > > > > > >> Where do you buy those chinese gearboxes? > > > >> I found their website but still cannot locate an American > > distributor. > > > > > > > > No idea - I'm in Australia. > > > > > > > > The address below sent me a document giving some details on > the Type > > > > 16A so I'd suggest asking her for a US distributor. > > > > > > > > zjjddq2008@ > > > > > > > > As I said I'm pretty happy with my Type 06 box and I expect to > have a > > > > 16A one in the next month or so. > > > > > > > > Here is some data - I did a cut & paste from a Word doc so it > doesn't > > > > line up at all. Hopefully you can figure it out. I'm trying to > get a > > > > better manual. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.alibaba.com/product- > gs/209224719/marine_gear_box_for_marine.html > > > > > > > > Regards, Peter > > > > > > > > Type 06 Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing > primarily in > > > > reduction as follows: > > > > Actualreduction ratio > > > > Modle > > > > Nominal reduction ratio > > > > Ahead drive > > > > Astern drive > > > > 3.5 ZF 06 > > > > 3.5:1 > > > > 3.5:1 > > > > 3.28:1 > > > > 3 ZF 06 > > > > 3:01 > > > > 3.05:1 > > > > 3.28:1 > > > > 2.5 ZF 06 > > > > 2.5:1 > > > > 2.52:1 > > > > 2.50:1 > > > > The Type 16A Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing > > > > primarily in reduction as follows: > > > > Modle > > > > Nominal reduction ratio > > > > Ahead drive > > > > Astern drive > > > > 4 ZF 16A > > > > 4:01 > > > > 3.83:1 > > > > 3.61:1 > > > > 3.5 ZF 16A > > > > 3.5:00 > > > > 3.35:1 > > > > 3.15:1 > > > > 3 ZF 16A > > > > 3:01 > > > > 2.95:1 > > > > 2.95:1 > > > > 2.5 ZF 16A > > > > 2.5:1 > > > > 2.48:1 > > > > 2.47:1 > > > > 2 ZF 16 A > > > > 2:01 > > > > 2.07:1 > > > > 2.16:1 > > > > > > > > TECHNICAL PARAMETERS AND SPECIFICATIONS > > > > Item > > > > Description > > > > Symbols > > > > Unit > > > > Type06 > > > > Type16A > > > > 1 > > > > Rated transmission power > > > > P/n > > > > KW/ > > > > (r/min) > > > > 0.0118 > > > > 0.0044 > > > > 2 > > > > Rated speed of input shaft > > > > n > > > > (r/min) > > > > 2000 > > > > 2100 > > > > 3 > > > > Rated propeller thrust > > > > Type16 > > > > N.M > > > > 112.7 > > > > 42.1 > > > > > > > > Type > > > > 06 > > > > 16A > > > > Weight > > > > 70Kg > > > > 100Kg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > | 18762|18641|2008-11-01 05:26:25|peter_d_wiley|Re: Gaff Rig|Tom is adamant about weight control on the Gazelle and the Witch series. Doing things like that will make the boat tender. The Gazelle is close to a modified sharpie design and its initial stability is based on its form as much as its ballast. You add weight up high, it gets tender. As designed it sails at no more than a 15 deg heel, closer to 10 deg. I had the chance to buy a Gazelle hull local to me but passed on it because it wasn't built to design and the time/effort to bring it bnack was out of line with the asking price. You second-guess the designer at your own risk, just like if I built a Swain I wouldn't deviate from the design without running my mods past you first. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Steve Rankin put a wheelhouse on his gazelle between the aft cabin > and the forecabin making a huge improvement in accomodation and > comfort. He did it in steel which made it a bit tender. In aluminium > it would have been even better. > Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > Brent, I didn't want to mention names because I have no personal > > knowledge of the people or situation. > > > > However, Jake Fehrs is the person Tom was referring to when he > told me > > that his Gazelle design was altered to avoid payment of royalties. > I > > don't know about the other shortcomings and I'm happy to take your > > word for them but I'll never buy a hull built by Fehrs. > > > > I personally know a couple of Gazelle owners, plus a person who had > > the slip next to Dick Johnson, owner for over 30 years of MIGRANT, > the > > second Gazelle built. Dick sailed that boat for 30 years all over > the > > South Pacific. Say what you like about some Gazelles and some > owners > > but the original design does sail. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Those BC boats were built by either Foulkes of Fehrs. They a > were > > > ten guage plate , painted outside only welded outside only and > the > > > weld mostly grouind off for cosmetic reasons. They usualy rusted > out > > > from the inside, as the inside was rarely painted, only foamed > over > > > bare steel. They were disasters, but still sell for high prices > in > > > some cases. Friends tried sailing south, and finding it didn't > have > > > a hope in hell of self steering, gave up, and sold the boat. > Other > > > friends sailed on to Xmas Island, taking 76 days for the > voyage, > > > and sold her cheap there. > > > They continue to give steel boats a bad name. > > > As far as I know , the builders have no offshore cruising > > > experience, and the boats are an example of people with no > offshore > > > experience redesigning boats. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Probably so. If you read Tom's books on steel boat building, > you'll > > > > find a section where he gives you the math and figures on > different > > > > types of masts and their fastening methods. > > > > > > > > His masts typically (for the size vessels we're discussing) > are > > > either > > > > 5" Sched 40 aluminium or 4" Sched 10 steel. Both stayed, both > > > either > > > > keel stepped or stepped/locked in a tabernacle which is keel > > > stepped, > > > > so the mast is effectively keel stepped anyway. I don't recall > any > > > of > > > > Tom's designs with free standing masts but I'm a long way from > my > > > > library ATM. I do know that he added a spreader high up on his > > > > ANTELOPE design which was originally junk rigged and then > changed > > > to a > > > > gaff schooner rig. The plans I got from him with the junk > schooner > > > rig > > > > for a Witch show that he added a spreader here, too. I've > never got > > > > around to asking him why; it doesn't show on my rigging plans > for > > > the > > > > gaff ketch or gaff schooner (I think...). > > > > > > > > Euler's Formula will tell you why it's a real good idea to > have a > > > > stayed mast. You need to go to a lot bigger section to get the > same > > > > stiffness. > > > > > > > > FWIW there was a builder in British Columbia who built a > number of > > > > Gazelles but deviated from the plans sufficiently to claim > that it > > > was > > > > his own design. These boats apparently don't sail anywhere > near as > > > > well because of the changes in the underbody design. Tom said > he > > > > looked into suing him but the builder apparently only > personally > > > owned > > > > some tools and a pickup truck, so there wasn't going to be any > > > gain. > > > > > > > > > Interesting. It was a Colvin I sailed on. Maybe something > was > > > > wrong with > > > > > it, but I think the masts would have come down without the > > > shrouds > > > > since the > > > > > mast wasn't so hefty and the shrouds were tight. It could > have > > > been > > > > a case > > > > > of a homebuilder thinking he was smarter than the designer > > > though! :). > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of sae140 > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:02 AM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I think there are two kinds of Junk rig causing a little > > > > confusion. The > > > > > > kind with stays holding the mast (Chinese, Colvin) and the > > > more modern > > > > > > versions with a free-standing mast (Jester) developed by > > > Blondie > > > > Hasler. > > > > > > Only with stays could you have a tabernacle and headsails. > > > This is > > > > > > probably why it's more popular. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The differences between the Hasler-Mcleod and the Colvin > sails > > > are > > > > > principally those of shape, and sheeting methods. Colvin's > masts > > > are > > > > > not structurally stayed - the stays are employed principally > as > > > > > anti-whip devices. > > > > > > > > > > Tabernacles ARE possible with unstayed masts, as are the use > of > > > > > light-air foresails. > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > 28/2008 9:20 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18763|18518|2008-11-01 05:36:08|peter_d_wiley|Re: Wire halyards|The design to go for, in a sheave carrying wire cable, is 40X the cable diameter. This is what we used to use for all shipboard sheaves where the cable had to have a long working life. Anything less than this figure and you reduce the working life of the cable. Going *much* less reduces the life really fast. So, 6mm should ideally have 240mm sheaves. You've got 175mm. That's not bad and for our purposes, plenty good enough. Assuming NER T-900 is wire, I'm not familiar with it. For rope, you can get away with a much smaller diameter sheave. I'm 1000km away from my reference library so can't quote a figure, but ignoring windage etc etc you don't go wrong going for bigger sheaves, within reason. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > My masthead sheaves are 7" dia. (inside of the groove) and stand proud > of the mast on both sides. The sheave box has all edges that the > halyards may touch rounded considerably. I'm using NER T-900 for my > halyards. > > Carl > > > silascrosby wrote: > > > > > > Yep, Stainless around maybe a 2" diam sheave. A bad design, replaced > > in NZ. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Was that a stainless halyard? They have a high failure rate . Galv > > > is far less prone to metal fatigue . This is another arguement for > > > as big a sheave as possible , running thru the mast. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "silascrosby" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in > > > > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too > > > small > > > > diameter. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots > > > on > > > > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard > > > may > > > > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > > > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving > > > and > > > > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your > > > options > > > > > open, small ones don't > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "silascrosby" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron > > > halyards and > > > > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps > > > time for > > > > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going > > > offshore > > > > > again. > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast > > > sheaves in > > > > > the > > > > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves > > > on > > > > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had > > > a > > > > > lot of > > > > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I > > > switched to > > > > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip > > > to > > > > > Tonga > > > > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18764|18518|2008-11-01 05:40:21|peter_d_wiley|Re: Wire halyards|You're not kidding it was a bad design. I personally would NEVER use stainless steel for this purpose and assuming it was a 5mm wire, that's only a 10:1 ratio, nowhere near enough. Stainless work hardens and becomes brittle far faster than galv steel does. I ran a marine engineering/science group for many years and we never used s/steel for wires if we could avoid it. On this I'm with Brent. If you're going to use wire halyards, use galvanised steel. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Yep, Stainless around maybe a 2" diam sheave. A bad design, replaced > in NZ. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Was that a stainless halyard? They have a high failure rate . Galv > > is far less prone to metal fatigue . This is another arguement for > > as big a sheave as possible , running thru the mast. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > wrote: > > > > > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in > > > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too > > small > > > diameter. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots > > on > > > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard > > may > > > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving > > and > > > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your > > options > > > > open, small ones don't > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron > > halyards and > > > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps > > time for > > > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going > > offshore > > > > again. > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast > > sheaves in > > > > the > > > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves > > on > > > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had > > a > > > > lot of > > > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I > > switched to > > > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip > > to > > > > Tonga > > > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18765|18655|2008-11-01 07:14:28|martin demers|Re: V.W. diesel|Terry, My VW engine is a 1991 1.6l na, it comes from a Golf. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: thcain@... > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:16:38 +0930 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel > > > Exactly which VW diesel are you considering? > > The essential parts are available from various suppliers. > > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of martin demers > Sent: Saturday, 1 November 2008 08:51 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel > > HI, > > do you know of any other sources beside Lancing marine who offers marinising > kits for the VW diesel, maybe used? > > Martin. > ________________________________ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18766|18655|2008-11-01 07:43:59|martin demers|Re: V.W. diesel|Hi peter, I just received an answer from Sally@, she is offering only 5 different ratios, they are not offering 3:1 but 3 1/2:1. I am waiting for a reply to see if they can have other ratios and for the price. Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: peter_d_wiley@... > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:39:40 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel > > > I hate to say it, Martin, but off of Ebay. I'm negotiating on a type > 16A at the moment. The seller said she got her 2 from > > sally@... > > As I said there is a minimum order but I suggest you drop a line to > the email address and see what happens. > > I've said it before but it bears repeating. There are engines > everywhere. Marine g/boxes are harder to find. Most modern engines are > running at 3000+ rpm so you need at least a 3:1 box. Find the box > first and then the engine. These boxes don't have a bell housing so > need some sort of sub-frame to align their input shaft with the > engine, but that's not hard to do. A lot easier than mating something > with a different size bell housing to an existing motor. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Peter, >> >> where did you get yours? in australia? >> >> Marin. >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: peter_d_wiley@... >>> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:50:13 +0000 >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel >>> >>> >>>> Where do you buy those chinese gearboxes? >>>> I found their website but still cannot locate an American > distributor. >>> >>> No idea - I'm in Australia. >>> >>> The address below sent me a document giving some details on the Type >>> 16A so I'd suggest asking her for a US distributor. >>> >>> zjjddq2008@... >>> >>> As I said I'm pretty happy with my Type 06 box and I expect to have a >>> 16A one in the next month or so. >>> >>> Here is some data - I did a cut & paste from a Word doc so it doesn't >>> line up at all. Hopefully you can figure it out. I'm trying to get a >>> better manual. >>> >>> > http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/209224719/marine_gear_box_for_marine.html >>> >>> Regards, Peter >>> >>> Type 06 Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing primarily in >>> reduction as follows: >>> Actualreduction ratio >>> Modle >>> Nominal reduction ratio >>> Ahead drive >>> Astern drive >>> 3.5 ZF 06 >>> 3.5:1 >>> 3.5:1 >>> 3.28:1 >>> 3 ZF 06 >>> 3:01 >>> 3.05:1 >>> 3.28:1 >>> 2.5 ZF 06 >>> 2.5:1 >>> 2.52:1 >>> 2.50:1 >>> The Type 16A Marine Gearbox comes into three models differing >>> primarily in reduction as follows: >>> Modle >>> Nominal reduction ratio >>> Ahead drive >>> Astern drive >>> 4 ZF 16A >>> 4:01 >>> 3.83:1 >>> 3.61:1 >>> 3.5 ZF 16A >>> 3.5:00 >>> 3.35:1 >>> 3.15:1 >>> 3 ZF 16A >>> 3:01 >>> 2.95:1 >>> 2.95:1 >>> 2.5 ZF 16A >>> 2.5:1 >>> 2.48:1 >>> 2.47:1 >>> 2 ZF 16 A >>> 2:01 >>> 2.07:1 >>> 2.16:1 >>> >>> TECHNICAL PARAMETERS AND SPECIFICATIONS >>> Item >>> Description >>> Symbols >>> Unit >>> Type06 >>> Type16A >>> 1 >>> Rated transmission power >>> P/n >>> KW/ >>> (r/min) >>> 0.0118 >>> 0.0044 >>> 2 >>> Rated speed of input shaft >>> n >>> (r/min) >>> 2000 >>> 2100 >>> 3 >>> Rated propeller thrust >>> Type16 >>> N.M >>> 112.7 >>> 42.1 >>> >>> Type >>> 06 >>> 16A >>> Weight >>> 70Kg >>> 100Kg >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18767|18518|2008-11-01 09:49:11|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wire halyards|On Sat, Nov 01, 2008 at 09:36:06AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > So, 6mm should ideally have 240mm sheaves. You've got 175mm. That's > not bad and for our purposes, plenty good enough. Assuming NER T-900 > is wire, I'm not familiar with it. I'm guessing it means New England Ropes' T-900, which is a high-tech double-braid line. If I recall correctly, that stuff has about as much stretch as steel does, but it's expensive as hell - $4 or $5 per foot in sizes usable on a 30'+ boat. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18768|18696|2008-11-01 13:49:11|martin demers|Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail|Hi, Having had a sewing workshop for many years I still have an industrial sewing machine, it is a Pfaff walking foot machine made to stich leather, canvas and thick materials like sail fabric. However I noticed that boat sails are sewn using zig-zag stiches and my machine makes only staight stiches. Can my machine be of any use on a sailboat or should I find a zig-zag machine? zig-zag stiches are generally used to spread tension more evenly. I wonder how straight stiches react on a sail. any comments? Martin. ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:11:53 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail > > > Sew your own sun strip on . A good hand crank sewing machine is one > of the greatest money savers on any cruising boat. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" > wrote: >> >>>>>>>Used sails would be a tiny fraction the cost of materials for > any >> new sail of the same area. >> >> >> There are incredibly good deals on good used sails. I just bought > a used >> roller furling genoa for $400. It's in great shape. If I take > care, it >> should last at least 5 years, probably 10. The last time I had a > new >> acrylic sun strip sewn on to an existing sail, it cost almost that > much. >> >> Cheers, Paul >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 18769|18696|2008-11-01 14:22:55|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail|On Sat, Nov 01, 2008 at 01:48:48PM -0400, martin demers wrote: > > Hi, > > Having had a sewing workshop for many years I still have an > industrial sewing machine, it is a Pfaff walking foot machine made to > stich leather, canvas and thick materials like sail fabric. However > I noticed that boat sails are sewn using zig-zag stiches and my > machine makes only staight stiches. > Can my machine be of any use on a sailboat or should I find a zig-zag machine? > zig-zag stiches are generally used to spread tension more evenly. > I wonder how straight stiches react on a sail. IN my experience, you need a zig-zag machine. Way back when, I had a very old hand-cranked Singer that I bought for $25; I *really* regret having sold it. It got out of tune, I didn't know what to do, and got rid of it. Big mistake... that thing could go through 8 layers of sailcloth without even slowing down. Since then, I've had a cheap Kenmore from Sears - not worth a damn, could barely stitch bedsheets - which my wife broke by trying to sew Velcro backing onto mosquito screening. I threw it away (it wasn't even worth a dishonorable burial), and searched around until I found another old Singer ($40 this time, from another sailor.) It's _way_ more complicated than I need, but it's all metal, and could probably stitch my boat back together if the welds ever cracked. :) Going through a 1/2" stack of cloth just required tweaking the thread tension a little - which is how life should be. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18770|18518|2008-11-01 23:34:45|theboilerflue|Re: Wire halyards|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > I'd think gasoline would be the most dangerous thing, but perhaps It's true there are some pretty crazy ass covering warning labels why today i bought a set of racheting strap-downs that told me to wear safty goggles and EAR PROTECTION! why in hell one has to ear protection i don't know i, maybe the sound of the 1-1/2 strap breaking will make you go deaf. you could elaborate about the problem you see with wire halyard winches, because there are a lot of candy asses out their putting warning labels everything in the store and I'm not going to where safety glasses with using a caulking gun.?? (How's that for a run on sentence.) > > --Doug J > Tulsa Ok > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Carl Anderson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:19 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Wire halyards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wire halyard winches are considered by many to be the MOST DANGEROUS > > THING that you can possibly put on a boat!! > > > > You should be looking at doing a rope to wire splice and use "regular" > > winches on the rope tail. > > > > With the advent of very low stretch synthetic rope, I have gone with > > rope halyards myself and put the large sheaves at the masthead as > > recommended by Brent so I have options in the future. > > > > Carl > > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > > hey brent what are you using as a halyard winch to gather wire rope? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "silascrosby" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the Marquesas ,in > > > > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too small > > > > diameter. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots on > > > > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard may > > > > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > > > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving and > > > > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your options > > > > > open, small ones don't > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "silascrosby" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron halyards and > > > > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps time for > > > > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going offshore > > > > > again. > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in > > > > > the > > > > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > > > > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a > > > > > lot of > > > > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > > > > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to > > > > > Tonga > > > > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18771|18655|2008-11-02 01:48:27|T & D Cain|Re: V.W. diesel|Martin, That's the same basic engine with some re-arrangements as the Piranha (spelt it wrong before!). The industrial VW conversion stands vertically. If you are happy with the VW's condition, there are a few local and overseas sources of the parts for conversion. I can also send you quite a few images of our engine which will make the final arrangement easier to visualise. I was lucky enough to happen upon a Pathfinder (US) VW conversion which had come to grief through a salt water leak back into the engine. No. 3 cylinder was seized, and the owner went for a $12000 Yanmar substitution. I won all of the easily removed parts which the installers of the new engine or some other party had not damaged during the investigation and removal. I wish now that I had simply loaded the whole thing into the Landcruiser and kept it for spares. However, the parts I did keep include the flywheel adapter plate and fasteners, the flywheel housing with the back face set up for a standard marine gearbox , some old engine mounts, a fuel injection pump (allegedly worth quite a lot), and a host of small accessories, all in quite good nick. Unfortunately, as Gordon will remember, the Bowman 1500 manifold/heat exchanger was badly damaged by the previous party or parties, and repairs would be needed to make that expensive assembly useable. Bowman tell us that this unit and all spares are still available. The flywheel housing is like new. If I were you, I'd get some current prices for the VW1500 Bowman unit and an external oil cooler and the adapter plate conversion (that's ex US unless you do one like mine). Also check the Jabscoshop UK or in Sydney, the 'Pumpshop' for a kit for a crankshaft mounted raw water pump unless you have some other path in mind (dry exhaust?). When you compare these with a full kit price including freight, you will be in a position to decide. Probably best to contact me directly if further discussion required and for image transmission rather than clog the Origami traffic, use thcain@.... Have a look at: http://www.alliedheattransfer.com.au/bowman.htm and: jabscoshop.co.uk for: RE: 29440-1101 --- quote for supply. Cheers, Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of martin demers Sent: Saturday, 1 November 2008 20:44 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: V.W. diesel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18772|18518|2008-11-02 03:56:19|peter_d_wiley|Re: Wire halyards|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > It would seem to me that if the winch can't manage wire tension then > you have the wrong winch. Now I make no bones about the fact that I > read this forum to learn about boating and suffer from a lack of > practical experience but that does mean I have spent a lot of time > with ropes and chains of all sorts. The number one thing to realize > is that the load you are moving will have a greater influence on that > rope than your little body will. In any event I'm having a hard time > imagining how a wire rope is any more dangerous than any other device. > > So what I'm asking the group here is this: is this danger real and how > does it manafest itself. > I think this has already been covered but basically you're right - the root problem is a piss-poor winch design with a piss-poor band braking system. You need to hold the winch handle with one hand and release the brake with the other. If you don't hold the winch handle, it freewheels and can easily break whatever is in the way. I would NEVER use one of these. For my own amusement I designed a winch using a planetary gear set and another one using a worm and wheel. I have a slotter (vertical metal shaper) so I can cut internal splines, keyways and gear teeth etc. Some people here may not know it so it bears repeating - for reasonably high ratios, a worm can drive a wheel but a wheel cannot back-drive a worm. The teeth have to shear first. These are very safe devices, great at force multiplication, but slow. What I did was design using a 20:1 worm & wheel combo that I picked up cheap, then put a gear drive on the worm shaft to reduce the reduction. I drew up the plans and thought about having the housing cast up, but it's gone no further. Lotta trouble to go to really except as a nice exercise in machining and pattern making. Many many years ago my father picked up a US Navy bomb hoist which is a marvel of compact engineering and one day I'm going to pull it apart to see what's in there. I'll bet money that it's a planetary gearbox, but this thing also has complete control in both cable directions. All in all, Brent's way is probably the simplest and probably what I'll do. PDW| 18773|18696|2008-11-02 04:01:17|peter_d_wiley|Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > old Singer ($40 this time, from another sailor.) It's _way_ more > complicated than I need, but it's all metal, and could probably stitch > my boat back together if the welds ever cracked. :) Going through a 1/2" > stack of cloth just required tweaking the thread tension a little - > which is how life should be. Next time you're near it, Ben, could you see if it's got a model number anywhere and post it? Near my place there are tons of old Singer machines, treadle and less commonly hand crank, and they go cheap. I actually have 2 in a crate I haven't unpacked yet that were my mothers, and I snagged before my sisters managed to. Both treadle machines and I think my mother said that one was an industrial model. She was a seamstress before raising 4 obnoxious children. PDW| 18774|18774|2008-11-02 14:59:52|Michael Casling|Sewing machine|A zig zag stitch is best for laying one piece of material on another, overlapping about an inch and running two rows of stitches on the seam. The problem with the small machines most suited for a boat, is they will not handle the heavy stuff, and there is not much room between the needle and the other end. I have a newer Phaff zig zag and an older Singer straight stitch, from before reverse was invented. Have sewn many miles on a heavy walking foot Phaff. That was the basic machine ( about six of them ) that we used for furniture and auto uphoslstery. We had a Singer about twice the size of the Phaff for very heavy work, and another Singer about four times the size of everything else. It would sew veneer plywood together. Stitch could be up to 5/8 inch. Had a wheel foot machine for fine leather work, and an Adler for car headlinings. I mention all this to illustrate that it is hard to find one machine that does it all. But a newer quality zig zag machine will do a lot of work, just expect to do some hand stitching through the heavy stuff. The machine needs to be more sturdy than a regular house hold unit. Michael| 18775|18518|2008-11-02 15:39:58|Paul Wilson|Re: Wire halyards|You're not kidding it was a bad design. I personally would NEVER use stainless steel for this purpose and assuming it was a 5mm wire, that's only a 10:1 ratio, nowhere near enough. Stainless work hardens and becomes brittle far faster than galv steel does. I ran a marine engineering/science group for many years and we never used s/steel for wires if we could avoid it. On this I'm with Brent. If you're going to use wire halyards, use galvanised steel. PDW I would say it depends on the quality of the galvanizing. I have SS halyards that are over 15 years old and have had galvanized ones that only lasted 2 or 3 years. There is such a thin flash of zinc on many things called galvanized, they might as well be bare steel. I tried paint and oils on the galv wire but found it was easier and probably cheaper in the long run to go with SS. The SS halyards will get a fish hook (strand popping out) usually at the eye/thimble first. I have a nicropress tool onboard (love it) and redo the end. You lose a bit of length but it will be good to go for a few more years. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18776|18776|2008-11-02 23:17:34|kingsknight4life|V-berth dimensions??|Hi Iwas wondering what the "typical" v-berth dimensions are on the 36 footer? I know there isn't a standard size but I'm assuming thaat most boats with a v-berth forward followed immediately by a head aft of it are close to the same size?? If someone could get me the measurements for the v-berth it would be greatly appreciated. 1. width at bow 2. width at aft end 3. lenght down the middle (and sides if possible) Thanks Rowland| 18777|18777|2008-11-03 03:21:06|rebeccafalworth|Freebies 3rd November|Dear Members A NEW Page of great Freebies was just added ready for Monday 3rd November. Visit Now! If you would like a veritable 'mountain' of free-stuff, take the time to visit the website below. It is packed with great freebies that ALL members can grab! There is even 250 Free Books you can download, straight away! You are sure to find something of interest, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES when you arrive at the site and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces...but its worth the work!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies! PS: When you have collected a few freebies for yourself, be nice and pass this email message forward to all your family and friends. Its very satisfying helping others and everyone loves something for nothing!| 18778|18518|2008-11-03 08:46:33|Carl Anderson|Re: Wire halyards|I was looking for a low stretch halyard & found a great deal on "roll ends" of T-900 from a rigging company in CT. The specs on this are pretty good for stretch & creep, especially if you keep to the low end of the working load. I am using 3/8" (10mm) so I'm probably around 5% of the SWL in my use if I have the halyard tensioned to 500 lbs. I'm using 1/2" Samson XLS for the sheets. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com silascrosby wrote: > > > Carl, > 1.How did you pick this particular rope? > > 2. What are you using for sheets ? > > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > My masthead sheaves are 7" dia. (inside of the groove) and stand proud > > of the mast on both sides. The sheave box has all edges that the > > halyards may touch rounded considerably. I'm using NER T-900 for my > > halyards. > > > > Carl > > > > > > silascrosby wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yep, Stainless around maybe a 2" diam sheave. A bad design, replaced > > > in NZ. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Was that a stainless halyard? They have a high failure rate . Galv > > > > is far less prone to metal fatigue . This is another arguement for > > > > as big a sheave as possible , running thru the mast. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "silascrosby" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My only halyard failure was a wire one,halfway to the > Marquesas ,in > > > > > 1988. A real pain at the time.Likely because the sheave was too > > > > small > > > > > diameter. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dacron works only as long as you have absolutely no sharp spots > > > > on > > > > > > your sheaves , sheave boxes or anywhere else that the halyard > > > > may > > > > > > touch. You sometimes only find out after starting out on a long > > > > > > passage , sometimes thhe hard way. Wire is far more forgiving > > > > and > > > > > > definitly lower stretch. Cheaper too. Big sheaves leave your > > > > options > > > > > > open, small ones don't > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "silascrosby" > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent, amazingly I am still using the original dacron > > > > halyards and > > > > > > > sheets that I launched the boat with 15 years ago. Perhaps > > > > time for > > > > > > > replacement but no failures yet.Certainly before going > > > > offshore > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ; Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast > > > > sheaves in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > > > > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the > sheaves > > > > on > > > > > > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > > > > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had > > > > a > > > > > > lot of > > > > > > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I > > > > switched to > > > > > > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip > > > > to > > > > > > Tonga > > > > > > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18779|18518|2008-11-03 08:56:12|Carl Anderson|Re: Wire halyards|Ben, Yup that's the T-900 that I got for my halyards. If you pay retail that stuff will cost an arm & a leg! I found a rigging company that gets rid of "roll ends" for about 25% of retail. I guess that most of their customers need lengths that are more than 100' and I'm looking for around 95' so I get the discount and the others pay the riggers their profit. I refuse to pay retail for anything if I can help it & MY GAWD the 'net has some deals if you look around!!!! Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Sat, Nov 01, 2008 at 09:36:06AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > So, 6mm should ideally have 240mm sheaves. You've got 175mm. That's > > not bad and for our purposes, plenty good enough. Assuming NER T-900 > > is wire, I'm not familiar with it. > > I'm guessing it means New England Ropes' T-900, which is a high-tech > double-braid line. If I recall correctly, that stuff has about as much > stretch as steel does, but it's expensive as hell - $4 or $5 per foot in > sizes usable on a 30'+ boat. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > * > > | 18780|18696|2008-11-03 13:55:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail|On Sun, Nov 02, 2008 at 09:01:16AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > old Singer ($40 this time, from another sailor.) It's _way_ more > > complicated than I need, but it's all metal, and could probably stitch > > my boat back together if the welds ever cracked. :) Going through a 1/2" > > stack of cloth just required tweaking the thread tension a little - > > which is how life should be. > > Next time you're near it, Ben, could you see if it's got a model > number anywhere and post it? As it happens, I have the manual (in PDF) right here on my laptop - even though I'm teaching a class today (on break right now), I can still pull it up. It's a Singer 319K, and as a guy who appreciates good machinery, you'd *love* this thing. Beautiful, beefy design that's made to last forever. > Near my place there are tons of old > Singer machines, treadle and less commonly hand crank, and they go > cheap. I actually have 2 in a crate I haven't unpacked yet that were > my mothers, and I snagged before my sisters managed to. Both treadle > machines and I think my mother said that one was an industrial model. > She was a seamstress before raising 4 obnoxious children. :) There's actually a vintage Singer group - my wife is subscribed to it - on Yahoo. Those folks really know their business, and have manuals for tuning these things, repairing them, etc. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18781|18696|2008-11-04 03:56:44|peter_d_wiley|Re: Gaff Rig Tiki wing sail|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 02, 2008 at 09:01:16AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > old Singer ($40 this time, from another sailor.) It's _way_ more > > > complicated than I need, but it's all metal, and could probably stitch > > > my boat back together if the welds ever cracked. :) Going through a 1/2" > > > stack of cloth just required tweaking the thread tension a little - > > > which is how life should be. > > > > Next time you're near it, Ben, could you see if it's got a model > > number anywhere and post it? > > As it happens, I have the manual (in PDF) right here on my laptop - even > though I'm teaching a class today (on break right now), I can still pull > it up. It's a Singer 319K, and as a guy who appreciates good machinery, > you'd *love* this thing. Beautiful, beefy design that's made to last > forever. Thanks for that, I'll keep an eye out. I do love good machinery, that's for sure. In fact I need to get on with the boat project before the barn becomes a functioning museum for metalworking equipment. It's amazing what you can find cheap if you look long enough. BTW quite a few of the old hands on r.c.m hang out on the Practical Machinist forum nowadays. Excellent place to ask metalworking related questions, and a very low tolerance for OT bullshit (unless clearly marked as OT and in a general forum). PDW| 18782|18782|2008-11-05 07:02:10|Matt|How much?|Hello, Simple question, how much would you (Brent) charge to build a twin keeled BS31, from buying the steel to sailing away? Seriously, all up, how much? (bear in mind, any help from me would be both infrequent and mostly unhelpfull.) Cheers, Matt Australia| 18783|18783|2008-11-05 17:54:37|Martin Demers|aluminium pilot house also aluminium cabin top|Hi, I was remembering the many post there was about the installation of an aluminium pilothouse and it's weight saving and I came to ask myself if it would be a good idea to have also the cabin top made of aluminium. any comments? Martin.| 18784|18784|2008-11-06 03:58:31|ruthbrookwater|New Freebies! (6th November)|A NEW PAGE of FREE STUFF was just added ready for Thursday 6th November. Visit Now! You are sure to find something of interest as there is something for everyone!, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages as they are uploaded. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies!| 18785|18785|2008-11-06 18:07:43|edward_stoneuk|twin wall polycarbonate roof lining|I think it was Brent who posted about lining the cabin top and underdecks with thin twin wall polycarbonate sheet with lining fabric glued to it. I was thinking of using 4mm thin sheet. Are there any views or advice on this, particularly how to fix it to the cabin top and also how to fix the material to it. Regards, Ted| 18786|18785|2008-11-06 18:57:31|Gordon Schnell|Re: twin wall polycarbonate roof lining|Edward Gord here in Vancouver. Sounds like the same material I'm using for the "headliner" throughout the boat. It looks like cardboard, corrugated, but is made of a plastic-like material and available in white and translucent. I have done a fair amount of the of the boat already. Easy to clean, cheap to buy and easy to cut and shape. I'm fastening it in place with #4 bronze screws into wood "firing strips" running vertically on the hull and laterally under the decks and cabintop. The firing strips are 1"X2" rough fir material and cover the entire interior of the decks and hull (above the waterline). These strips were screwed to the longitudinals, then "spray-foamed" in place and painted white (fire-retardent). It seems to be working well and looks good. Easy to clean, too. Do a test area and see what you think. It would be great to get some feedback before I go ahead and complete the task. Gord edward_stoneuk wrote: > > I think it was Brent who posted about lining the cabin top and > underdecks with thin twin wall polycarbonate sheet with lining fabric > glued to it. I was thinking of using 4mm thin sheet. Are there any > views or advice on this, particularly how to fix it to the cabin top > and also how to fix the material to it. > > Regards, > > Ted > > | 18787|18785|2008-11-06 21:15:12|Gary H. Lucas|Re: twin wall polycarbonate roof lining|Gordon, I believe what you are using is polypropylene. The polycarbonate stuff is used as glazing in the greenhouse industry. They use and buy it by the ACRE! There is also a triple wall polycarbonate material, and acrylic double wall too. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Schnell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] twin wall polycarbonate roof lining > Edward > Gord here in Vancouver. Sounds like the same material I'm using for the > "headliner" throughout the boat. It looks like cardboard, corrugated, > but is made of a plastic-like material and available in white and > translucent. I have done a fair amount of the of the boat already. Easy > to clean, cheap to buy and easy to cut and shape. > I'm fastening it in place with #4 bronze screws into wood "firing > strips" running vertically on the hull and laterally under the decks and > cabintop. The firing strips are 1"X2" rough fir material and cover the > entire interior of the decks and hull (above the waterline). These > strips were screwed to the longitudinals, then "spray-foamed" in place > and painted white (fire-retardent). It seems to be working well and > looks good. Easy to clean, too. > Do a test area and see what you think. > It would be great to get some feedback before I go ahead and complete > the task. > Gord > > > > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: >> >> I think it was Brent who posted about lining the cabin top and >> underdecks with thin twin wall polycarbonate sheet with lining fabric >> glued to it. I was thinking of using 4mm thin sheet. Are there any >> views or advice on this, particularly how to fix it to the cabin top >> and also how to fix the material to it. >> >> Regards, >> >> Ted >> >> > > | 18788|18785|2008-11-07 01:02:39|kingsknight4life|Re: twin wall polycarbonate roof lining|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > I think it was Brent who posted about lining the cabin top and > underdecks with thin twin wall polycarbonate sheet with lining fabric > glued to it. I was thinking of using 4mm thin sheet. Are there any > views or advice on this, particularly how to fix it to the cabin top > and also how to fix the material to it. > > Regards, > > Ted > Hi I tried that out a couple or 3 yrs ago while still building my boat (pre-stolen days) as I picked up a bunch of sheets from the scrap yard for 3 or 4 bucks each. I can't remember why I bought them, to be honest I may have bought them intending to mock up my interior with them. Anyway I had some material left from covering my setee cushions on the previous boat and glued them to the sheets. It was plain old contact cement (from Cdn tire) and it worked like a charm, even held when I left my test piece outside for over a year. It was light, waterproof, cheap and good looking. I think i t makes a great headliner. Rowland PS Can anyone give me the dimensions of the v-berth on their 36 footer, please? PPS I think the spray adhesive was a 3m product, black with red letters comes to mind.| 18789|18789|2008-11-07 02:07:36|T & D Cain|FW: V.W. diesel|-----Original Message----- From: notify@yahoogroups.com [mailto:notify@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of richytill Sent: Friday, 7 November 2008 16:11 I'm running a VW 16D into a Borg Warner velvet drive 2.5:1. The injector pump is limmited to run the engine at 3300 rpm for about 30 hp. The motor came from a wrecked Rabbit. With a 3 blade Campbels Sailor prop, the unit pushes a flush-deck fin-keel BS 36 at 6-7 knots depending on conditions. We cruise at 2300-2400 rpm for 5-6 knots. The drive has propelled us from Sooke to Queen Charlotte Straight and many,many places between for the last 3 years with no problems. The starter must be protected with a heat shield. The motor cost $850 cdn from a wrecker but fire departments will sell them for less from practice cars if you can find one. The rebuilt velevet drive cost $1150. Ask for the 80 amp Bosch alternator if you can get it. My dry exhaust is all 2" 316 ss-- it cost a trip to a dumpster and a bottle of Glenfidich plus the welding. A heat exchanger is required for an oil cooler. Use an expired propane tank for an expansion/header tank if you wish; they come free at the propane dealers. Don't cheap out on the transmission or it will likely fail you. There is a litany of failed transmission stories at the harbour here.| 18790|18789|2008-11-07 04:14:35|kingsknight4life|Re: FW: V.W. diesel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: notify@yahoogroups.com [mailto:notify@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > richytill > Sent: Friday, 7 November 2008 16:11 > Rich when are you going to be able to send me some of those interior pics we talked about. : ) Also what are people using for wiring harnesses and guages when they put in a motor thats not bought off of the shelf? I'm assuming if you pull it from a car you can get the guages too but I got mine off ebay and it is a "naked" motor with no bell housing and no wiring harness?? How do I go about hooking up guages and controls?? Guess I could always buy an Isuzu like everyone else? : ) Thanks Rowland| 18791|18791|2008-11-07 08:18:19|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: twin wall "poly carbonate" for head liner|Gord et all, Hey guys, the stuff that looks like cardboard made of plastic would probably be exellent for a head liner but is most definitely NOT polycarbonate. I shot 7.5kk pieces of that shit in 3.5gram cups for Barnes Hind and polycarb is really hard stuff, brittle as well. it's beauty is that it's hard & stands up pretty well to UV, thought as I think Brent has mentioned is not entirely impervious to it in this application probably a moot point as it obviously does the job & will be getting diddly in terms of UV & is cheap (what, about $15 for a 4' x 8' sheet) so have fun with it, but don't know how it would hold up under UV Cheers, Shane P.S. so Gord, when's the big splash? __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/| 18792|18789|2008-11-08 05:59:39|Martin Demers|Re: FW: V.W. diesel|Hi, when you mention dry exhaust do you men that you dont have a wet exhaust manifold? is your transmission bolted to a belhousing on the engine or is it bolted apart? Martin. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: notify@yahoogroups.com [mailto:notify@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > richytill > Sent: Friday, 7 November 2008 16:11 > > > I'm running a VW 16D into a Borg Warner velvet drive 2.5:1. The > injector pump is limmited to run the engine at 3300 rpm for about 30 > hp. The motor came from a wrecked Rabbit. With a 3 blade Campbels > Sailor prop, the unit pushes a flush-deck fin-keel BS 36 at 6-7 knots > depending on conditions. We cruise at 2300-2400 rpm for 5-6 knots. > The drive has propelled us from Sooke to Queen Charlotte Straight and > many,many places between for the last 3 years with no problems. The > starter must be protected with a heat shield. The motor cost $850 > cdn from a wrecker but fire departments will sell them for less from > practice cars if you can find one. The rebuilt velevet drive cost > $1150. Ask for the 80 amp Bosch alternator if you can get it. My > dry exhaust is all 2" 316 ss-- it cost a trip to a dumpster and a > bottle of Glenfidich plus the welding. A heat exchanger is required > for an oil cooler. Use an expired propane tank for an > expansion/header tank if you wish; they come free at the propane > dealers. Don't cheap out on the transmission or it will likely fail > you. There is a litany of failed transmission stories at the harbour > here. > | 18793|18791|2008-11-08 15:35:38|theboilerflue|Re: twin wall "poly carbonate" for head liner|I have always heard that stuff called coroplast. It's the same stuff used for election signs right, might be a lot of it lying around now for free like at major intersections and such. I was planning of using 1/8 inch mahogany which fetches about the same price per sheet not as easy to clean though but is wood. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Gord et all, > > Hey guys, the stuff that looks like cardboard made of plastic would probably be exellent for a head liner but is most definitely NOT polycarbonate. I shot 7.5kk pieces of that shit in 3.5gram cups for Barnes Hind and polycarb is really hard stuff, brittle as well. it's beauty is that it's hard & stands up pretty well to UV, thought as I think Brent has mentioned is not entirely impervious to it > > in this application probably a moot point as it obviously does the job & will be getting diddly in terms of UV & is cheap (what, about $15 for a 4' x 8' sheet) so have fun with it, but don't know how it would hold up under UV > > Cheers, > Shane > > P.S. so Gord, when's the big splash? > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ > | 18794|18791|2008-11-08 17:17:44|brentswain38|Re: twin wall "poly carbonate" for head liner|Rowland said he saw some with vinyl upholstery glued on it for headliner at the wooden boat show. He said it looks great. No delam or rot problems either. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I have always heard that stuff called coroplast. It's the same stuff > used for election signs right, might be a lot of it lying around now > for free like at major intersections and such. I was planning of using > 1/8 inch mahogany which fetches about the same price per sheet not as > easy to clean though but is wood. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Gord et all, > > > > Hey guys, the stuff that looks like cardboard made of plastic would > probably be exellent for a head liner but is most definitely NOT > polycarbonate. I shot 7.5kk pieces of that shit in 3.5gram cups for > Barnes Hind and polycarb is really hard stuff, brittle as well. it's > beauty is that it's hard & stands up pretty well to UV, thought as I > think Brent has mentioned is not entirely impervious to it > > > > in this application probably a moot point as it obviously does the > job & will be getting diddly in terms of UV & is cheap (what, about > $15 for a 4' x 8' sheet) so have fun with it, but don't know how it > would hold up under UV > > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > > P.S. so Gord, when's the big splash? > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new > Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > | 18795|18782|2008-11-08 17:24:49|brentswain38|Re: How much?|I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 hours for the detailing and 100 hours for the welding, at $30 per hour for the steel work. Interiors depend on how expensive an interior you want . I can rough one in on a week .Material costs depend on how good the scrounging is in your area. Where there is an oil, pulp or sugar industry there is usually scrap stainless. The last 36 I tacked together and detailed took me about six weeks . the owner did the welding. You could easily hire a welding student to weld it up for less that I' could do it for. I have recommended that to most owners. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > Hello, > Simple question, how much would you (Brent) charge to build a twin > keeled BS31, from buying the steel to sailing away? > Seriously, all up, how much? > (bear in mind, any help from me would be both infrequent and mostly > unhelpfull.) > Cheers, > Matt > Australia > | 18796|18719|2008-11-08 17:54:16|brentswain38|Re: Steel prices dropped?|I just heard of a guy buying all his stainless retail, at over $7 per pound. Makes you wonder who he is getting his advice from and how expensive such an advice source will be by the time he has finished his boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Rowland, > > I just bought some stainless at the scrap yard and was surprised to see > it at .75/pound!!!! > Also the inventory was down quite a bit at my usual place. > I guess that the Chinese aren't buying like they were earlier. > Carl > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > > I heard steel prices world wide have been dropping, has this been > > reflected in retail prices yet? Also does anyone know where and how > > much the prices for preprimed wheel abraded prices are here in Canada? > > Thanks Rowland > > > > > | 18797|18719|2008-11-08 19:22:48|Tom Mann|Re: Steel prices dropped?|Wow $7 a pound, wonder if he got a kiss with that! Steel prices here are in the .60 to .70 cent range. Hope they keep droppin. Tom On 11/8/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > I just heard of a guy buying all his stainless retail, at over $7 per > pound. Makes you wonder who he is getting his advice from and how > expensive such an advice source will be by the time he has finished > his boat. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Rowland, > > > > I just bought some stainless at the scrap yard and was surprised to see > > it at .75/pound!!!! > > Also the inventory was down quite a bit at my usual place. > > I guess that the Chinese aren't buying like they were earlier. > > Carl > > > > > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > > > > > I heard steel prices world wide have been dropping, has this been > > > reflected in retail prices yet? Also does anyone know where and how > > > much the prices for preprimed wheel abraded prices are here in Canada? > > > Thanks Rowland > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18798|18791|2008-11-08 19:38:52|mark hamill|Re: twin wall "poly carbonate" for head liner|www.coroplast.com There are a number of differnt weights and some with glue one side an others fire retardant. Home Depot, other hardware places often carry two weights. Mark| 18799|18791|2008-11-09 17:06:42|Jim Douglas|Re: twin wall "poly carbonate" for head liner|Hey guys, I've had an opportunity to be aboard a 30 foot sailboat that used the plastic corroplast as a headliner and also on any flat areas on the cabin sides. He used the nontinted clear stuff for the job, all nicely fiited to boot. Frankly gentlemen it just looked cheap and pretty damned unappealing. Using it as a backing for vinyl or some other covering might work plus it has some insulating properties to offer as well. Well, that's my two cents worth. Jim Douglas North Vancouver, B.C. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Gord et all, > > Hey guys, the stuff that looks like cardboard made of plastic would probably be exellent for a head liner but is most definitely NOT polycarbonate. I shot 7.5kk pieces of that shit in 3.5gram cups for Barnes Hind and polycarb is really hard stuff, brittle as well. it's beauty is that it's hard & stands up pretty well to UV, thought as I think Brent has mentioned is not entirely impervious to it > > in this application probably a moot point as it obviously does the job & will be getting diddly in terms of UV & is cheap (what, about $15 for a 4' x 8' sheet) so have fun with it, but don't know how it would hold up under UV > > Cheers, > Shane > > P.S. so Gord, when's the big splash? > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ > | 18800|18800|2008-11-09 22:41:26|kingsknight4life|I,m looking to buy a mast|For our "new" 36 ft. Bilge kee Brent Swain sailboat. :) Rowland| 18801|18801|2008-11-10 00:27:42|richytill|SS|I was asked to do the welding for a shut-down on a creamery/cheese factory once. All the old Stainless went into dumpsters and was hauled away to the scrap dealers. Some of the metal would need to be pressure washed but much of it was near perfect. If you are in a position to ask the job-site foreman for access to the dumpster in a situation like this, you may be able to salvage some quality stainless. Judicious quantities of rum and/or beer may serve to lubricate the deal.| 18802|18800|2008-11-10 02:29:44|Jim Douglas|Re: I,m looking to buy a mast|Rowland, I have an aluminium mast I'd like to sell! Came off a 36 foot Saugeen Witch which is also available.... While we're at it I've got a used marine Volvo diesel (in running condition according to the former ownwers), sails, and about 2000 lbs. of lead for sale as well. Lead is in the form of ingots and fishing cannon balls. All located in Parksville, B.C. Give me a call Jim Douglas North Vancouver, B.C. 604-986-2678 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > For our "new" 36 ft. Bilge kee > Brent Swain sailboat. :) > Rowland > | 18803|18803|2008-11-10 02:30:05|suzanneriston|Freebies 10th November|A NEW PAGE of FREE STUFF was just added ready for Monday 10th November. Visit Now! You are sure to find something of interest as there is something for everyone!, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday & Thursday...so add and keep the link in your FAVORITES and visit twice a week! www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces!) Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for free (the form is on every page) and you only get 2 emails a week informing you of the new pages as they are uploaded. Have a great day and enjoy the freebies!| 18804|18800|2008-11-10 13:21:34|James Pronk|Re: I,m looking to buy a mast|Hello Rowland Did you get a new boat or are you building one? James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > For our "new" 36 ft. Bilge kee > Brent Swain sailboat. :) > Rowland > | 18805|18800|2008-11-10 13:58:57|kingsknight4life|Re: I,m looking to buy a mast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Hello Rowland > Did you get a new boat or are you building one? > James. > Hi James Kind of a long story. As you may or may not know our original hull was stolen and scraped. :( After a couple of months we made an offer to purchase Gene's old hull but unfortunately for us I had underestimated the start up costs of our new business and also under estimated the time it would take to start seeing some decent money. ( which business doesn't go through this? lol) the result being that I couldn't afford to buy his hull so we had to let it go. Fast forward about 6 months and now we are slowly starting to turn things around and I'm itching to get a boat again or at least start building the parts. I had wrongly assummed the boat was gone so I started pricing out steel, keeping an eye for building spots etc. but nothing was definite. I was also faced with the task of trying to remove my brand new aluminum extrusion and lots of nice wood that was still on the land that my boat was stolen from. This was causing me some stress since we'd already lost the boat, losing the mast and wood probably would'vemade me go postal. lol I decided that I'd rather sell my mast for next to nothing than let it wind up in a scrap yard or become damaged from neglect since "the creep" had sold the 50 ft. trailer it was sitting on (blocked) out from under it, for scrap too. My father in law was going to drive to the Island and at least get the wood, when I thought up a possible win-win situation. I knew a builder who might want a mast and have the room to store our wood, so I approached him with my dilema. He took the mast for a great price and agreed to store our wood. I was happy since our wood was safe and our mast would be used for it's intended purposes, (NOT SCRAP/beer money for some punk) helping to transport a Swain boat around the world. (Even if it wasn't on our boat.) Ironically in less than 24 hrs. I got ahold of Gene and discovered that his hull was still for sale and we made a deal. Ironically or maybe "karmically" I had a hull again but my mast was "gone". Bev and I think that maybe by doing a good deed by letting our mast go for cheap, to someone that would use and appreciate it,this boat deal became possible. Who knows I'm just glad to be on the "Heretic highway" again, although now that I'm pricing masts out :(( Ugh! Steel or birdsmouth are definitely looking favorable at this point. Rowland| 18806|18806|2008-11-10 21:25:41|NHarney|Want to buy Swain 31 or 36|I would prefer a completed boat with bilge keels, but I'll consider unfinished projects and fin keels. Thanks, Norm Harney 805-402-1378 nharney(((at)))nharney.com| 18807|18789|2008-11-12 00:54:18|richytill|Re: FW: V.W. diesel|I made an adaptor plate from 1/2" steel to join the motor and transmission. No water is used in the dry exhaust. No salt water enters or leavss the engine compartment. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > Hi, > > when you mention dry exhaust do you men that you dont have a wet exhaust manifold? > is your transmission bolted to a belhousing on the engine or is it bolted apart? > > > Martin. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: notify@yahoogroups.com [mailto:notify@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > > richytill > > Sent: Friday, 7 November 2008 16:11 > > > > > > I'm running a VW 16D into a Borg Warner velvet drive 2.5:1. The > > injector pump is limmited to run the engine at 3300 rpm for about 30 > > hp. The motor came from a wrecked Rabbit. With a 3 blade Campbels > > Sailor prop, the unit pushes a flush-deck fin-keel BS 36 at 6-7 knots > > depending on conditions. We cruise at 2300-2400 rpm for 5-6 knots. > > The drive has propelled us from Sooke to Queen Charlotte Straight and > > many,many places between for the last 3 years with no problems. The > > starter must be protected with a heat shield. The motor cost $850 > > cdn from a wrecker but fire departments will sell them for less from > > practice cars if you can find one. The rebuilt velevet drive cost > > $1150. Ask for the 80 amp Bosch alternator if you can get it. My > > dry exhaust is all 2" 316 ss-- it cost a trip to a dumpster and a > > bottle of Glenfidich plus the welding. A heat exchanger is required > > for an oil cooler. Use an expired propane tank for an > > expansion/header tank if you wish; they come free at the propane > > dealers. Don't cheap out on the transmission or it will likely fail > > you. There is a litany of failed transmission stories at the harbour > > here. > > > | 18808|18800|2008-11-12 03:49:03|peter_d_wiley|Re: I,m looking to buy a mast|Jim, I sent you an email about the Witch. Regards, Peter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" wrote: > > Rowland, > > I have an aluminium mast I'd like to sell! Came off a 36 foot > Saugeen Witch which is also available.... > > While we're at it I've got a used marine Volvo diesel (in running > condition according to the former ownwers), sails, and about 2000 > lbs. of lead for sale as well. Lead is in the form of ingots and > fishing cannon balls. > > All located in Parksville, B.C. > > Give me a call > > Jim Douglas > North Vancouver, B.C. > 604-986-2678 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > For our "new" 36 ft. Bilge kee > > Brent Swain sailboat. :) > > Rowland > > > | 18809|18809|2008-11-12 04:01:34|marygradworth|Freebies 12th November|A NEW PAGE of FREE STUFF was just added and is ready to Visit Now! You are sure to find something of interest as there is something for everyone!, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday Wednesday & Friday...so keep visiting! If the link below is not working, visit the main website direct at: www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces!). http://snipurl.com/freebiestoday Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for FREE (the form is on every page). Have a great day and enjoy the freebies!| 18810|18800|2008-11-13 16:44:32|brentswain38|Re: I,m looking to buy a mast|Rowland Have you sued the scrap dealer yet or put a lien on his assets and bank account? That should finish your boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > wrote: > > > > Hello Rowland > > Did you get a new boat or are you building one? > > James. > > > Hi James > Kind of a long story. As you may or may not know our original hull > was stolen and scraped. :( After a couple of months we made an offer > to purchase Gene's old hull but unfortunately for us I had > underestimated the start up costs of our new business and also under > estimated the time it would take to start seeing some decent money. ( > which business doesn't go through this? lol) the result being that I > couldn't afford to buy his hull so we had to let it go. > > Fast forward about 6 months and now we are slowly starting to turn > things around and I'm itching to get a boat again or at least start > building the parts. I had wrongly assummed the boat was gone so I > started pricing out steel, keeping an eye for building spots etc. but > nothing was definite. I was also faced with the task of trying to > remove my brand new aluminum extrusion and lots of nice wood that was > still on the land that my boat was stolen from. This was causing me > some stress since we'd already lost the boat, losing the mast and > wood probably would'vemade me go postal. lol > > I decided that I'd rather sell my mast for next to nothing than let > it wind up in a scrap yard or become damaged from neglect since "the > creep" had sold the 50 ft. trailer it was sitting on (blocked) out > from under it, for scrap too. My father in law was going to drive to > the Island and at least get the wood, when I thought up a possible > win-win situation. I knew a builder who might want a mast and have > the room to store our wood, so I approached him with my dilema. He > took the mast for a great price and agreed to store our wood. I was > happy since our wood was safe and our mast would be used for it's > intended purposes, (NOT SCRAP/beer money for some punk) helping to > transport a Swain boat around the world. (Even if it wasn't on our > boat.) > > Ironically in less than 24 hrs. I got ahold of Gene and discovered > that his hull was still for sale and we made a deal. Ironically or > maybe "karmically" I had a hull again but my mast was "gone". Bev > and I think that maybe by doing a good deed by letting our mast go > for cheap, to someone that would use and appreciate it,this boat deal > became possible. Who knows I'm just glad to be on the "Heretic > highway" again, although now that I'm pricing masts out :(( Ugh! > Steel or birdsmouth are definitely looking favorable at this point. > > Rowland > | 18811|18791|2008-11-13 16:46:58|brentswain38|Re: twin wall "poly carbonate" for head liner|If you put the right sized dowel in the ends of those panels with a bit of urethane caulking , before gluing the vinyl on, you can make them up into full lengths. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Rowland said he saw some with vinyl upholstery glued on it for > headliner at the wooden boat show. He said it looks great. No delam or > rot problems either. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > I have always heard that stuff called coroplast. It's the same stuff > > used for election signs right, might be a lot of it lying around now > > for free like at major intersections and such. I was planning of using > > 1/8 inch mahogany which fetches about the same price per sheet not as > > easy to clean though but is wood. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > > wrote: > > > > > > Gord et all, > > > > > > Hey guys, the stuff that looks like cardboard made of plastic would > > probably be exellent for a head liner but is most definitely NOT > > polycarbonate. I shot 7.5kk pieces of that shit in 3.5gram cups for > > Barnes Hind and polycarb is really hard stuff, brittle as well. it's > > beauty is that it's hard & stands up pretty well to UV, thought as I > > think Brent has mentioned is not entirely impervious to it > > > > > > in this application probably a moot point as it obviously does the > > job & will be getting diddly in terms of UV & is cheap (what, about > > $15 for a 4' x 8' sheet) so have fun with it, but don't know how it > > would hold up under UV > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Shane > > > > > > P.S. so Gord, when's the big splash? > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new > > Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > | 18812|18518|2008-11-13 17:52:52|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|On most boats there is absolutely nowhere foreward of the cockpit to put anything down, without the risk of losing it obverboard. Everything you need up there , from kellets to shorelines , etc, has to be packed to and from the cockpit , often in rough conditions. On European boats , fordeck wells are common, and boats without them are considered second rate. Leaving out the foredeck well is a big mistake. My book and my postings here tell you how to avoid distortion there. If Evan, or anyone else stubornly refuses to follow the instructions and that results in distortion , then it is the fault of the builder, not the concept. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > My neighbour in one of my 36 foters has a two piece hatch, with a > lift top. I have rarely seen him lift the top during the many years > he has been living aboard. With the canopy above the hatch, the > most he can lift it is the same height as the cupola on the hatch, > the way I originaly designed it. A one piece hatch can be easily > made as watertight as the lid on a presser cooker. With a two piece > hatch this is extremely difficult to impossible. It does make for > extra wages for the builder tho. > > When we first began building steel masts for 36 footers, we used 5 > 1/2 inch OD tubing with a 11 guage wall thickness. This worked well > over thousands of miles of ocean cruising, and never threatened to > be any problem. It did become impossible to find, so we went for 6 > inch OD( 150mm) tubing. When I told people to go for 6 inch OD, some > bought well casing which is 6 5/8th OD with 10 guage wall, much > heavier. This is the stuff with grooves in the ends for conectors.As > it was what they had, we built masts out of it. It worked out OK , a > bit heavy for a 36 , but most owners were happy. Several changed > later to aluminium. When I asked one what the difference was, he > said " If it had been 6 inch OD it wouldn't have been worth > changing ,as the difference was minimal. With 6 5/8th it was > marginaly worth the effort and expense of changing. > Another advantage is that 6 inch comes in 24 foot lengths , > eliminating one scarf. > Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in the > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a lot of > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to Tonga > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > The materials list I give is all you need to build a boat. Evan > prefers to add a lot of extra materials to the list, as he finds it > easier and more convenient to simply grab an extra sheet at the > owners expense and not have to plan material useage. More expense > for the owner? Tough shit . His convenience is his first priority. > I have seen an owner with a full sheet left over, which Evan could > buy for a cut price for his own use. > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > One mistake I have often seen over the years is the use of Lexan > for > > pilothouse windows, often by those who have seen it fog up on other > > boats. After about three years it begins to fog up, eventually > making > > it impossible to see out of that beautiful seat with a view in the > > wheelhouse. > > As I mentioned elsewhere on this site, I just pounded a 6 inch > round > > of plexi with a sledgehammer without breaking it. It took may hits > > with the hammer. I don't think the strength of plexi is an issue > > unless you go for huge picture windows. A friend in the plastics > > business told me that plexi has 25 times the impact resistance of > > standard glass. Side windows are far more prone to breaking than > > front windows at sea.Tempered glass is a different story, and > allows > > the use of a wiper, a huge advantage in rainy BC. > > I used 1/2inch tempered glass for the front of my wheelhouse for > this > > reason. Love the hand operated wiper. As the only time it steams > up > > is when I'm cooking, and drys off quickly after , I don't see any > > advantage in double paned glass. An extra 1/4 inch of foam in the > hull > > will retain more heat. > > 3/8th glass has the same weight as the 11 guage steel plate that > you > > remove for windows. Anything thicker adds weigh, altho I still > prefer > > half inch tempered. > > Carl , you said you found a good source for glass. Where? I > heard > > that Bronco glass in Whiterock was good source , but I went to > Broco > > by mistake , a big mistake. I wouldn't recommend them. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > 86 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed since then, Evan has > since come > > > to think of himself as an expert, with absolutely no cruising > > > experience since. A lo tof my boats have crosed a o lot of oceans > > > since then and a lot of their input has been added to my > designs.Evan > > > used to listen to what I suggested from input from other > cruisers out > > > actualy cruising , and follow the directions I gave him. Now > it's like > > > trying to get a message thru a brick wall. > > > For example, he took this 31 footer out for a sail in Georgia > strait > > > once, got caught out in a 25 knot westerly , and surprise, > surprise , > > > the anchor well vent that he had absolutely no cover on, and no > way to > > > close off, got a few splashes of water rin , and scared the > shit out > > > of him. He appeared to decide then and there that all vents > are a > > > bad idea , because they let water in. > > > The boat next to me that Evan built has no real vents except the > > > hatches , which are all you need if you repeat Evans only > experience > > > ,which is tied to the dock , but they don't work beating to > windward > > > offshore. You get "dockside only" experience. > > > A couple in Frisco Bay were camped on a boat that Evan built , > and > > > woke up with splitting headaches, in time, fortunately, to > realise > > > that the boat was totally airtight. They were suffocating. The > owner > > > has since made the ventilation changes that were in the original > > > design, that Evan had overuled. Don't let an amateur make life > and > > > death decisions, of which there are many on offshore cruising > boats. > > > On my first run to Tonga and back I didn't have enough > ventilation , > > > enough for safety but not enough for comfort. beating to > windward thru > > > the tropics for 4,000 miles. I put a couple of four inch cowl > vents in > > > for the next trip , and the difference was huge . You still > need air > > > in a hurricane , vents that can be left open in any conditions. > > > Hurricanes don make you immune to suffocation. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > You make it sound like all of Evan's boats are crap :). I > have to > > > say that > > > > I had no problems with Evan whatsoever. I never felt any > pressure > > > to change > > > > anything. The most major change I made, was bounced off you > and you > > > said it > > > > would be OK. At the time, Evan had built or helped build 9 of > your > > > boats. > > > > I don't want to be critical, but to be fair, I have to say the > plans > > > were > > > > quite "sketchy" at the time and had few details. I am sure it > is > > > different > > > > now, but this was in 1986. I trusted Evan to interpret the > plans, > > > since he > > > > had the experience in building the boats and had approval by > you to > > > build to > > > > the plans. He made it clear that he had no cruising > experience. If I > > > > remember right, I don't think he had actually sailed any boat > at the > > > time > > > > since his own boat had only just been launched. Be that as it > > may, I am > > > > sure there were no changes to any of the scantlings since the > > > materials were > > > > ordered according to your list. Any design changes, like I > said, were > > > > bounced off you. I did make a few of my own minor decisions > since I > > > had a > > > > little bit of offshore crewing and local sailing and developed > some > > > of my > > > > own opinions. While I was building, you dropped by once in > awhile and > > > > voiced no objections as to what was going on. If you had said > you > > > didn't > > > > like something, I definitely would have changed it. Has any > two > > > homebuilt > > > > boats ever been the same? > > > > > > > > In conclusion, as far as my experience goes, any changes to the > > > plans were > > > > my decision and I am to be blamed, not Evan. I am certain I > could > > have > > > > learned more if you had built the boat instead of Evan, but I > am > > > extremely > > > > happy with the result. It has proven itself over and over > again and > > > sails > > > > great. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:25 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Common Screwups > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an > board > > > > if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out > at low > > > > tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off their > boat > > > > and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the > government has > > > > made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian > waters. > > > > I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any > boats I > > > > have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, > > > > especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. > > > > I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back > aboard > > > > any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him > to do so, > > > > but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients struggle > with > > > > everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while > living > > > > in drying anchorages. > > > > The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life tied > to a > > > > dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a > total > > > > cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes > life and > > > > death decisions) > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges of > > the twin > > > > > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > > > > > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single > keel will > > > > > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with > molten lead > > > > > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading > > edge pipe > > > > > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > > > > > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long > after I > > > > > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made > the keels > > > > > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a > rats ass > > > > > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have > your money > > > > > by then. Tough shit! > > > > > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the > wheelhouse , > > > > > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch > plate > > > > > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull > to a web > > > > > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on > the > > > > > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the > > strength > > > > > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of > the keels > > > > > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto > the keels > > > > > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > > > > > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end of > the > > > > > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It > could be > > > > > neccessary on the 31 tho. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin > then a flat > > > > > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see > out > > > of the > > > > > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in > the > > rain > > > > > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be > > foolish. > > > > > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor > space aft. > > > > > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 > have had no > > > > > > problem getting headroom without having to change the > design > > in any > > > > > > way , except lowering the floor. > > > > > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then > it > > would > > > > > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "Gerrit" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations > Brent! I > > > > think > > > > > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when > someone > > > > trys > > > > > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I > start > > > building > > > > > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you > directly, if I > > > > would > > > > > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the > floor has a > > > > lot of > > > > > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as > > > > possible. In > > > > > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and > > > pilothouse I > > > > > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an > idea how > > > > I get > > > > > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin > and > > > > > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull > maybe will > > > > not be > > > > > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get > that. > > > > Because I > > > > > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough > headroom > > > and if > > > > > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" > tall, so I > > > > think > > > > > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly > high it up > > > > to my > > > > > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the > > > pilothouse and > > > > > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under > windvane > > > in bad > > > > > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > > > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: > > > 10/19/2008 > > > > 6:02 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 18813|18518|2008-11-13 18:08:47|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|When I pulled together a 40 footer in 1980 the owner hired a couple of pulp mill welders to weld her up. They said " Brent is a great fitter, but the only complaint we have is he doesn't grind everything." I asked the owner' What do you call a fitter who grinds everything? A slow fitter." Had we gound everything , there is no way we could have put the hull, decks , keel, rudder cockpit and skeg together in 21 days. It would have taken far longer, with no benefits whatever. When you cut out the keel bottom , you end up with some heavy triangular bits of half inch plate. These are great for scraping the slag of the edges of the plates. If your cuts are fair, the only grinding you need to do is fairing of the high spots. The chalenge is to make cuts so fair they don't need grinding. Inside edges of decks need no grinding . They will be buried in foam and firing strips and never seen again. When you see a builder grinding the inside edges of deck panels , and other pieces that will be buried in foam or weld and never seen again, you know you are being scammed for the maximum number of hours the builder can drag the job into, for the maximum pay. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > My neighbour in one of my 36 foters has a two piece hatch, with a > lift top. I have rarely seen him lift the top during the many years > he has been living aboard. With the canopy above the hatch, the > most he can lift it is the same height as the cupola on the hatch, > the way I originaly designed it. A one piece hatch can be easily > made as watertight as the lid on a presser cooker. With a two piece > hatch this is extremely difficult to impossible. It does make for > extra wages for the builder tho. > > When we first began building steel masts for 36 footers, we used 5 > 1/2 inch OD tubing with a 11 guage wall thickness. This worked well > over thousands of miles of ocean cruising, and never threatened to > be any problem. It did become impossible to find, so we went for 6 > inch OD( 150mm) tubing. When I told people to go for 6 inch OD, some > bought well casing which is 6 5/8th OD with 10 guage wall, much > heavier. This is the stuff with grooves in the ends for conectors.As > it was what they had, we built masts out of it. It worked out OK , a > bit heavy for a 36 , but most owners were happy. Several changed > later to aluminium. When I asked one what the difference was, he > said " If it had been 6 inch OD it wouldn't have been worth > changing ,as the difference was minimal. With 6 5/8th it was > marginaly worth the effort and expense of changing. > Another advantage is that 6 inch comes in 24 foot lengths , > eliminating one scarf. > Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in the > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a lot of > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to Tonga > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > The materials list I give is all you need to build a boat. Evan > prefers to add a lot of extra materials to the list, as he finds it > easier and more convenient to simply grab an extra sheet at the > owners expense and not have to plan material useage. More expense > for the owner? Tough shit . His convenience is his first priority. > I have seen an owner with a full sheet left over, which Evan could > buy for a cut price for his own use. > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > One mistake I have often seen over the years is the use of Lexan > for > > pilothouse windows, often by those who have seen it fog up on other > > boats. After about three years it begins to fog up, eventually > making > > it impossible to see out of that beautiful seat with a view in the > > wheelhouse. > > As I mentioned elsewhere on this site, I just pounded a 6 inch > round > > of plexi with a sledgehammer without breaking it. It took may hits > > with the hammer. I don't think the strength of plexi is an issue > > unless you go for huge picture windows. A friend in the plastics > > business told me that plexi has 25 times the impact resistance of > > standard glass. Side windows are far more prone to breaking than > > front windows at sea.Tempered glass is a different story, and > allows > > the use of a wiper, a huge advantage in rainy BC. > > I used 1/2inch tempered glass for the front of my wheelhouse for > this > > reason. Love the hand operated wiper. As the only time it steams > up > > is when I'm cooking, and drys off quickly after , I don't see any > > advantage in double paned glass. An extra 1/4 inch of foam in the > hull > > will retain more heat. > > 3/8th glass has the same weight as the 11 guage steel plate that > you > > remove for windows. Anything thicker adds weigh, altho I still > prefer > > half inch tempered. > > Carl , you said you found a good source for glass. Where? I > heard > > that Bronco glass in Whiterock was good source , but I went to > Broco > > by mistake , a big mistake. I wouldn't recommend them. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > 86 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed since then, Evan has > since come > > > to think of himself as an expert, with absolutely no cruising > > > experience since. A lo tof my boats have crosed a o lot of oceans > > > since then and a lot of their input has been added to my > designs.Evan > > > used to listen to what I suggested from input from other > cruisers out > > > actualy cruising , and follow the directions I gave him. Now > it's like > > > trying to get a message thru a brick wall. > > > For example, he took this 31 footer out for a sail in Georgia > strait > > > once, got caught out in a 25 knot westerly , and surprise, > surprise , > > > the anchor well vent that he had absolutely no cover on, and no > way to > > > close off, got a few splashes of water rin , and scared the > shit out > > > of him. He appeared to decide then and there that all vents > are a > > > bad idea , because they let water in. > > > The boat next to me that Evan built has no real vents except the > > > hatches , which are all you need if you repeat Evans only > experience > > > ,which is tied to the dock , but they don't work beating to > windward > > > offshore. You get "dockside only" experience. > > > A couple in Frisco Bay were camped on a boat that Evan built , > and > > > woke up with splitting headaches, in time, fortunately, to > realise > > > that the boat was totally airtight. They were suffocating. The > owner > > > has since made the ventilation changes that were in the original > > > design, that Evan had overuled. Don't let an amateur make life > and > > > death decisions, of which there are many on offshore cruising > boats. > > > On my first run to Tonga and back I didn't have enough > ventilation , > > > enough for safety but not enough for comfort. beating to > windward thru > > > the tropics for 4,000 miles. I put a couple of four inch cowl > vents in > > > for the next trip , and the difference was huge . You still > need air > > > in a hurricane , vents that can be left open in any conditions. > > > Hurricanes don make you immune to suffocation. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > You make it sound like all of Evan's boats are crap :). I > have to > > > say that > > > > I had no problems with Evan whatsoever. I never felt any > pressure > > > to change > > > > anything. The most major change I made, was bounced off you > and you > > > said it > > > > would be OK. At the time, Evan had built or helped build 9 of > your > > > boats. > > > > I don't want to be critical, but to be fair, I have to say the > plans > > > were > > > > quite "sketchy" at the time and had few details. I am sure it > is > > > different > > > > now, but this was in 1986. I trusted Evan to interpret the > plans, > > > since he > > > > had the experience in building the boats and had approval by > you to > > > build to > > > > the plans. He made it clear that he had no cruising > experience. If I > > > > remember right, I don't think he had actually sailed any boat > at the > > > time > > > > since his own boat had only just been launched. Be that as it > > may, I am > > > > sure there were no changes to any of the scantlings since the > > > materials were > > > > ordered according to your list. Any design changes, like I > said, were > > > > bounced off you. I did make a few of my own minor decisions > since I > > > had a > > > > little bit of offshore crewing and local sailing and developed > some > > > of my > > > > own opinions. While I was building, you dropped by once in > awhile and > > > > voiced no objections as to what was going on. If you had said > you > > > didn't > > > > like something, I definitely would have changed it. Has any > two > > > homebuilt > > > > boats ever been the same? > > > > > > > > In conclusion, as far as my experience goes, any changes to the > > > plans were > > > > my decision and I am to be blamed, not Evan. I am certain I > could > > have > > > > learned more if you had built the boat instead of Evan, but I > am > > > extremely > > > > happy with the result. It has proven itself over and over > again and > > > sails > > > > great. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:25 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Common Screwups > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an > board > > > > if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out > at low > > > > tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off their > boat > > > > and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the > government has > > > > made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian > waters. > > > > I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any > boats I > > > > have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, > > > > especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. > > > > I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back > aboard > > > > any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him > to do so, > > > > but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients struggle > with > > > > everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while > living > > > > in drying anchorages. > > > > The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life tied > to a > > > > dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a > total > > > > cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes > life and > > > > death decisions) > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges of > > the twin > > > > > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > > > > > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single > keel will > > > > > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with > molten lead > > > > > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading > > edge pipe > > > > > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > > > > > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long > after I > > > > > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made > the keels > > > > > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a > rats ass > > > > > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have > your money > > > > > by then. Tough shit! > > > > > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the > wheelhouse , > > > > > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch > plate > > > > > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull > to a web > > > > > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on > the > > > > > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the > > strength > > > > > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of > the keels > > > > > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto > the keels > > > > > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > > > > > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end of > the > > > > > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It > could be > > > > > neccessary on the 31 tho. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin > then a flat > > > > > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see > out > > > of the > > > > > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in > the > > rain > > > > > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be > > foolish. > > > > > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor > space aft. > > > > > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 > have had no > > > > > > problem getting headroom without having to change the > design > > in any > > > > > > way , except lowering the floor. > > > > > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then > it > > would > > > > > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "Gerrit" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations > Brent! I > > > > think > > > > > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when > someone > > > > trys > > > > > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I > start > > > building > > > > > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you > directly, if I > > > > would > > > > > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the > floor has a > > > > lot of > > > > > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as > > > > possible. In > > > > > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and > > > pilothouse I > > > > > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an > idea how > > > > I get > > > > > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin > and > > > > > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull > maybe will > > > > not be > > > > > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get > that. > > > > Because I > > > > > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough > headroom > > > and if > > > > > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" > tall, so I > > > > think > > > > > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly > high it up > > > > to my > > > > > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the > > > pilothouse and > > > > > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under > windvane > > > in bad > > > > > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > > > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: > > > 10/19/2008 > > > > 6:02 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 18814|18518|2008-11-13 18:20:40|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Some people have taken welding courses to help them keep the cost of their boats down. I have suggested to many that they call the local welding school , and hire student welder to do the welding, for half of what I charge. When you hire a builder , suggest that you want to hire a student to do much of the cutting and welding, or want to do most of the cutting and welding yourself, and see how he reacts. If he acts offended ,thows a tantrum, and insists on doing it all himself, expect to pay far more for the job than it need cost. I've heard of one builder getting really pissed of when a client, who was a welder, did a bit of his own welding. He considered that his job , regardless of the clients past expereince as a welder. He expected the experienced welder to pay him to do what he could well do himself.$5 per hour less doesn't cover the cost of that kind of attitude. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > My neighbour in one of my 36 foters has a two piece hatch, with a > lift top. I have rarely seen him lift the top during the many years > he has been living aboard. With the canopy above the hatch, the > most he can lift it is the same height as the cupola on the hatch, > the way I originaly designed it. A one piece hatch can be easily > made as watertight as the lid on a presser cooker. With a two piece > hatch this is extremely difficult to impossible. It does make for > extra wages for the builder tho. > > When we first began building steel masts for 36 footers, we used 5 > 1/2 inch OD tubing with a 11 guage wall thickness. This worked well > over thousands of miles of ocean cruising, and never threatened to > be any problem. It did become impossible to find, so we went for 6 > inch OD( 150mm) tubing. When I told people to go for 6 inch OD, some > bought well casing which is 6 5/8th OD with 10 guage wall, much > heavier. This is the stuff with grooves in the ends for conectors.As > it was what they had, we built masts out of it. It worked out OK , a > bit heavy for a 36 , but most owners were happy. Several changed > later to aluminium. When I asked one what the difference was, he > said " If it had been 6 inch OD it wouldn't have been worth > changing ,as the difference was minimal. With 6 5/8th it was > marginaly worth the effort and expense of changing. > Another advantage is that 6 inch comes in 24 foot lengths , > eliminating one scarf. > Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in the > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a lot of > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to Tonga > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > The materials list I give is all you need to build a boat. Evan > prefers to add a lot of extra materials to the list, as he finds it > easier and more convenient to simply grab an extra sheet at the > owners expense and not have to plan material useage. More expense > for the owner? Tough shit . His convenience is his first priority. > I have seen an owner with a full sheet left over, which Evan could > buy for a cut price for his own use. > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > One mistake I have often seen over the years is the use of Lexan > for > > pilothouse windows, often by those who have seen it fog up on other > > boats. After about three years it begins to fog up, eventually > making > > it impossible to see out of that beautiful seat with a view in the > > wheelhouse. > > As I mentioned elsewhere on this site, I just pounded a 6 inch > round > > of plexi with a sledgehammer without breaking it. It took may hits > > with the hammer. I don't think the strength of plexi is an issue > > unless you go for huge picture windows. A friend in the plastics > > business told me that plexi has 25 times the impact resistance of > > standard glass. Side windows are far more prone to breaking than > > front windows at sea.Tempered glass is a different story, and > allows > > the use of a wiper, a huge advantage in rainy BC. > > I used 1/2inch tempered glass for the front of my wheelhouse for > this > > reason. Love the hand operated wiper. As the only time it steams > up > > is when I'm cooking, and drys off quickly after , I don't see any > > advantage in double paned glass. An extra 1/4 inch of foam in the > hull > > will retain more heat. > > 3/8th glass has the same weight as the 11 guage steel plate that > you > > remove for windows. Anything thicker adds weigh, altho I still > prefer > > half inch tempered. > > Carl , you said you found a good source for glass. Where? I > heard > > that Bronco glass in Whiterock was good source , but I went to > Broco > > by mistake , a big mistake. I wouldn't recommend them. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > 86 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed since then, Evan has > since come > > > to think of himself as an expert, with absolutely no cruising > > > experience since. A lo tof my boats have crosed a o lot of oceans > > > since then and a lot of their input has been added to my > designs.Evan > > > used to listen to what I suggested from input from other > cruisers out > > > actualy cruising , and follow the directions I gave him. Now > it's like > > > trying to get a message thru a brick wall. > > > For example, he took this 31 footer out for a sail in Georgia > strait > > > once, got caught out in a 25 knot westerly , and surprise, > surprise , > > > the anchor well vent that he had absolutely no cover on, and no > way to > > > close off, got a few splashes of water rin , and scared the > shit out > > > of him. He appeared to decide then and there that all vents > are a > > > bad idea , because they let water in. > > > The boat next to me that Evan built has no real vents except the > > > hatches , which are all you need if you repeat Evans only > experience > > > ,which is tied to the dock , but they don't work beating to > windward > > > offshore. You get "dockside only" experience. > > > A couple in Frisco Bay were camped on a boat that Evan built , > and > > > woke up with splitting headaches, in time, fortunately, to > realise > > > that the boat was totally airtight. They were suffocating. The > owner > > > has since made the ventilation changes that were in the original > > > design, that Evan had overuled. Don't let an amateur make life > and > > > death decisions, of which there are many on offshore cruising > boats. > > > On my first run to Tonga and back I didn't have enough > ventilation , > > > enough for safety but not enough for comfort. beating to > windward thru > > > the tropics for 4,000 miles. I put a couple of four inch cowl > vents in > > > for the next trip , and the difference was huge . You still > need air > > > in a hurricane , vents that can be left open in any conditions. > > > Hurricanes don make you immune to suffocation. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > You make it sound like all of Evan's boats are crap :). I > have to > > > say that > > > > I had no problems with Evan whatsoever. I never felt any > pressure > > > to change > > > > anything. The most major change I made, was bounced off you > and you > > > said it > > > > would be OK. At the time, Evan had built or helped build 9 of > your > > > boats. > > > > I don't want to be critical, but to be fair, I have to say the > plans > > > were > > > > quite "sketchy" at the time and had few details. I am sure it > is > > > different > > > > now, but this was in 1986. I trusted Evan to interpret the > plans, > > > since he > > > > had the experience in building the boats and had approval by > you to > > > build to > > > > the plans. He made it clear that he had no cruising > experience. If I > > > > remember right, I don't think he had actually sailed any boat > at the > > > time > > > > since his own boat had only just been launched. Be that as it > > may, I am > > > > sure there were no changes to any of the scantlings since the > > > materials were > > > > ordered according to your list. Any design changes, like I > said, were > > > > bounced off you. I did make a few of my own minor decisions > since I > > > had a > > > > little bit of offshore crewing and local sailing and developed > some > > > of my > > > > own opinions. While I was building, you dropped by once in > awhile and > > > > voiced no objections as to what was going on. If you had said > you > > > didn't > > > > like something, I definitely would have changed it. Has any > two > > > homebuilt > > > > boats ever been the same? > > > > > > > > In conclusion, as far as my experience goes, any changes to the > > > plans were > > > > my decision and I am to be blamed, not Evan. I am certain I > could > > have > > > > learned more if you had built the boat instead of Evan, but I > am > > > extremely > > > > happy with the result. It has proven itself over and over > again and > > > sails > > > > great. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:25 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Common Screwups > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an > board > > > > if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out > at low > > > > tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off their > boat > > > > and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the > government has > > > > made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian > waters. > > > > I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any > boats I > > > > have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, > > > > especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. > > > > I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back > aboard > > > > any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him > to do so, > > > > but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients struggle > with > > > > everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while > living > > > > in drying anchorages. > > > > The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life tied > to a > > > > dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a > total > > > > cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes > life and > > > > death decisions) > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges of > > the twin > > > > > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > > > > > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single > keel will > > > > > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with > molten lead > > > > > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading > > edge pipe > > > > > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > > > > > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long > after I > > > > > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made > the keels > > > > > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a > rats ass > > > > > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have > your money > > > > > by then. Tough shit! > > > > > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the > wheelhouse , > > > > > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch > plate > > > > > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull > to a web > > > > > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on > the > > > > > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the > > strength > > > > > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of > the keels > > > > > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto > the keels > > > > > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > > > > > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end of > the > > > > > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It > could be > > > > > neccessary on the 31 tho. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin > then a flat > > > > > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see > out > > > of the > > > > > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in > the > > rain > > > > > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be > > foolish. > > > > > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor > space aft. > > > > > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 > have had no > > > > > > problem getting headroom without having to change the > design > > in any > > > > > > way , except lowering the floor. > > > > > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then > it > > would > > > > > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "Gerrit" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations > Brent! I > > > > think > > > > > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when > someone > > > > trys > > > > > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I > start > > > building > > > > > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you > directly, if I > > > > would > > > > > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the > floor has a > > > > lot of > > > > > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as > > > > possible. In > > > > > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and > > > pilothouse I > > > > > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an > idea how > > > > I get > > > > > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin > and > > > > > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull > maybe will > > > > not be > > > > > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get > that. > > > > Because I > > > > > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough > headroom > > > and if > > > > > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" > tall, so I > > > > think > > > > > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly > high it up > > > > to my > > > > > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the > > > pilothouse and > > > > > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under > windvane > > > in bad > > > > > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > > > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: > > > 10/19/2008 > > > > 6:02 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 18815|18815|2008-11-13 21:33:13|dare2build|Hello Brent|In some other site,I don't recall which one or how recent the posting was, you were ask about a wheel house on your 26' design. You said that you were considering redrawing that design with wheel house. Have you done this? Also is there a more recent edition of your book or is the one I have current. I bought that book of the net several years ago.| 18816|18816|2008-11-14 02:47:43|francescharwoode|Freebies 14th November|A NEW PAGE of FREE STUFF was just added and is ready to Visit Now! You are sure to find something of interest as there is something for everyone!, and they create new pages full of freebies, every Monday Wednesday & Friday...so keep visiting! If the link below is not working, visit their main website direct at: www. FreebieTelegraph .com (obviously you will need to type it into your browser without the spaces!). http://snipurl.com/freebiestoday Lastly, if you want to stay informed as to when the new freebie pages are loaded (some offers are 'time' sensitive, so its the early bird that catches the worm!), they have an excellent Freebie VIP Group that you can join for FREE (the form is on every page). Have a great day and enjoy the freebies!| 18817|18518|2008-11-14 03:44:54|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Some people have been omitting proper mooring bits and chocks in the stern. I have seen one inch nylon spring lines break in a swell in Rarotonga. We should never be so naive as to assume we will find the totally sheltered harbours we enjoy at home, in the third world. "Yachtie" trendy , dainty little cleats have no place on an offsore cruising boat. Without adequate chocks , lines find the first thing available to cut themselves on, or trash a lot of other gear in the search. Al lines and chocks need to be stronger than the thickest lines that will ever use them. If a tug has to pull you of a reef, and you don''t have proper morring bits, that is a problem. He isn't going to hand you a piece of half inch nylon braid as a tow rope. A 2 inch hawser is more likely. Not having bits to take it will be a serious problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > My neighbour in one of my 36 foters has a two piece hatch, with a > lift top. I have rarely seen him lift the top during the many years > he has been living aboard. With the canopy above the hatch, the > most he can lift it is the same height as the cupola on the hatch, > the way I originaly designed it. A one piece hatch can be easily > made as watertight as the lid on a presser cooker. With a two piece > hatch this is extremely difficult to impossible. It does make for > extra wages for the builder tho. > > When we first began building steel masts for 36 footers, we used 5 > 1/2 inch OD tubing with a 11 guage wall thickness. This worked well > over thousands of miles of ocean cruising, and never threatened to > be any problem. It did become impossible to find, so we went for 6 > inch OD( 150mm) tubing. When I told people to go for 6 inch OD, some > bought well casing which is 6 5/8th OD with 10 guage wall, much > heavier. This is the stuff with grooves in the ends for conectors.As > it was what they had, we built masts out of it. It worked out OK , a > bit heavy for a 36 , but most owners were happy. Several changed > later to aluminium. When I asked one what the difference was, he > said " If it had been 6 inch OD it wouldn't have been worth > changing ,as the difference was minimal. With 6 5/8th it was > marginaly worth the effort and expense of changing. > Another advantage is that 6 inch comes in 24 foot lengths , > eliminating one scarf. > Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in the > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a lot of > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to Tonga > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > The materials list I give is all you need to build a boat. Evan > prefers to add a lot of extra materials to the list, as he finds it > easier and more convenient to simply grab an extra sheet at the > owners expense and not have to plan material useage. More expense > for the owner? Tough shit . His convenience is his first priority. > I have seen an owner with a full sheet left over, which Evan could > buy for a cut price for his own use. > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > One mistake I have often seen over the years is the use of Lexan > for > > pilothouse windows, often by those who have seen it fog up on other > > boats. After about three years it begins to fog up, eventually > making > > it impossible to see out of that beautiful seat with a view in the > > wheelhouse. > > As I mentioned elsewhere on this site, I just pounded a 6 inch > round > > of plexi with a sledgehammer without breaking it. It took may hits > > with the hammer. I don't think the strength of plexi is an issue > > unless you go for huge picture windows. A friend in the plastics > > business told me that plexi has 25 times the impact resistance of > > standard glass. Side windows are far more prone to breaking than > > front windows at sea.Tempered glass is a different story, and > allows > > the use of a wiper, a huge advantage in rainy BC. > > I used 1/2inch tempered glass for the front of my wheelhouse for > this > > reason. Love the hand operated wiper. As the only time it steams > up > > is when I'm cooking, and drys off quickly after , I don't see any > > advantage in double paned glass. An extra 1/4 inch of foam in the > hull > > will retain more heat. > > 3/8th glass has the same weight as the 11 guage steel plate that > you > > remove for windows. Anything thicker adds weigh, altho I still > prefer > > half inch tempered. > > Carl , you said you found a good source for glass. Where? I > heard > > that Bronco glass in Whiterock was good source , but I went to > Broco > > by mistake , a big mistake. I wouldn't recommend them. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > 86 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed since then, Evan has > since come > > > to think of himself as an expert, with absolutely no cruising > > > experience since. A lo tof my boats have crosed a o lot of oceans > > > since then and a lot of their input has been added to my > designs.Evan > > > used to listen to what I suggested from input from other > cruisers out > > > actualy cruising , and follow the directions I gave him. Now > it's like > > > trying to get a message thru a brick wall. > > > For example, he took this 31 footer out for a sail in Georgia > strait > > > once, got caught out in a 25 knot westerly , and surprise, > surprise , > > > the anchor well vent that he had absolutely no cover on, and no > way to > > > close off, got a few splashes of water rin , and scared the > shit out > > > of him. He appeared to decide then and there that all vents > are a > > > bad idea , because they let water in. > > > The boat next to me that Evan built has no real vents except the > > > hatches , which are all you need if you repeat Evans only > experience > > > ,which is tied to the dock , but they don't work beating to > windward > > > offshore. You get "dockside only" experience. > > > A couple in Frisco Bay were camped on a boat that Evan built , > and > > > woke up with splitting headaches, in time, fortunately, to > realise > > > that the boat was totally airtight. They were suffocating. The > owner > > > has since made the ventilation changes that were in the original > > > design, that Evan had overuled. Don't let an amateur make life > and > > > death decisions, of which there are many on offshore cruising > boats. > > > On my first run to Tonga and back I didn't have enough > ventilation , > > > enough for safety but not enough for comfort. beating to > windward thru > > > the tropics for 4,000 miles. I put a couple of four inch cowl > vents in > > > for the next trip , and the difference was huge . You still > need air > > > in a hurricane , vents that can be left open in any conditions. > > > Hurricanes don make you immune to suffocation. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > You make it sound like all of Evan's boats are crap :). I > have to > > > say that > > > > I had no problems with Evan whatsoever. I never felt any > pressure > > > to change > > > > anything. The most major change I made, was bounced off you > and you > > > said it > > > > would be OK. At the time, Evan had built or helped build 9 of > your > > > boats. > > > > I don't want to be critical, but to be fair, I have to say the > plans > > > were > > > > quite "sketchy" at the time and had few details. I am sure it > is > > > different > > > > now, but this was in 1986. I trusted Evan to interpret the > plans, > > > since he > > > > had the experience in building the boats and had approval by > you to > > > build to > > > > the plans. He made it clear that he had no cruising > experience. If I > > > > remember right, I don't think he had actually sailed any boat > at the > > > time > > > > since his own boat had only just been launched. Be that as it > > may, I am > > > > sure there were no changes to any of the scantlings since the > > > materials were > > > > ordered according to your list. Any design changes, like I > said, were > > > > bounced off you. I did make a few of my own minor decisions > since I > > > had a > > > > little bit of offshore crewing and local sailing and developed > some > > > of my > > > > own opinions. While I was building, you dropped by once in > awhile and > > > > voiced no objections as to what was going on. If you had said > you > > > didn't > > > > like something, I definitely would have changed it. Has any > two > > > homebuilt > > > > boats ever been the same? > > > > > > > > In conclusion, as far as my experience goes, any changes to the > > > plans were > > > > my decision and I am to be blamed, not Evan. I am certain I > could > > have > > > > learned more if you had built the boat instead of Evan, but I > am > > > extremely > > > > happy with the result. It has proven itself over and over > again and > > > sails > > > > great. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:25 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Common Screwups > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an > board > > > > if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out > at low > > > > tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off their > boat > > > > and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the > government has > > > > made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian > waters. > > > > I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any > boats I > > > > have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, > > > > especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. > > > > I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back > aboard > > > > any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him > to do so, > > > > but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients struggle > with > > > > everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while > living > > > > in drying anchorages. > > > > The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life tied > to a > > > > dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a > total > > > > cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes > life and > > > > death decisions) > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges of > > the twin > > > > > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > > > > > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single > keel will > > > > > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with > molten lead > > > > > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading > > edge pipe > > > > > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > > > > > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long > after I > > > > > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made > the keels > > > > > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a > rats ass > > > > > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have > your money > > > > > by then. Tough shit! > > > > > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the > wheelhouse , > > > > > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch > plate > > > > > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull > to a web > > > > > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on > the > > > > > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the > > strength > > > > > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of > the keels > > > > > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto > the keels > > > > > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > > > > > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end of > the > > > > > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It > could be > > > > > neccessary on the 31 tho. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin > then a flat > > > > > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to see > out > > > of the > > > > > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing in > the > > rain > > > > > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would be > > foolish. > > > > > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor > space aft. > > > > > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 > have had no > > > > > > problem getting headroom without having to change the > design > > in any > > > > > > way , except lowering the floor. > > > > > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , then > it > > would > > > > > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "Gerrit" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations > Brent! I > > > > think > > > > > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten when > someone > > > > trys > > > > > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I > start > > > building > > > > > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you > directly, if I > > > > would > > > > > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the > floor has a > > > > lot of > > > > > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this as > > > > possible. In > > > > > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and > > > pilothouse I > > > > > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an > idea how > > > > I get > > > > > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin > and > > > > > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull > maybe will > > > > not be > > > > > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get > that. > > > > Because I > > > > > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough > headroom > > > and if > > > > > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" > tall, so I > > > > think > > > > > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly > high it up > > > > to my > > > > > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the > > > pilothouse and > > > > > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under > windvane > > > in bad > > > > > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > > > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release Date: > > > 10/19/2008 > > > > 6:02 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 18818|18815|2008-11-14 17:25:32|brentswain38|Re: Hello Brent|Yes I have drawn up a wheelhouse for the 26. The last item I put in my book was the alternator welder. The latest update I did on that one was a 100 watt lightbulb between the stinger and the ground to stop the diodes from frying. I also did the woodstove drawings. If you have these updates your book is still current. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dare2build" wrote: > > In some other site,I don't recall which one or how recent the posting was, you were ask > about a wheel house on your 26' design. You said that you were considering redrawing that > design with wheel house. Have you done this? Also is there a more recent edition of your > book or is the one I have current. I bought that book of the net several years ago. > | 18819|18518|2008-11-14 17:31:27|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|When Winston Bushnell built his first 36 footer in the late 80's he launched her with a total of $14,000 in her and by the time he set saild for Hawaii and the western Pacific he had a total of $17,000 in her. He did his own work ,or traded labour, and worked in a boat yard and was thus able to scroung much of the material in her. Now people assume that they can hire people to build their boat , buy all the material new at retail prices and end up in the same price range.Not a chance. No one ever clamied that any boatbuilding method will let you do things that way and end up with an affordable boat. apear top assume they can built a shell, leave it out in the rain for several years and let it grow to completion. No way. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Some people have been omitting proper mooring bits and chocks in the > stern. I have seen one inch nylon spring lines break in a swell in > Rarotonga. We should never be so naive as to assume we will find the > totally sheltered harbours we enjoy at home, in the third > world. "Yachtie" trendy , dainty little cleats have no place on an > offsore cruising boat. Without adequate chocks , lines find the first > thing available to cut themselves on, or trash a lot of other gear in > the search. Al lines and chocks need to be stronger than the thickest > lines that will ever use them. If a tug has to pull you of a reef, > and you don''t have proper morring bits, that is a problem. He isn't > going to hand you a piece of half inch nylon braid as a tow rope. A > 2 inch hawser is more likely. Not having bits to take it will be a > serious problem. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > My neighbour in one of my 36 foters has a two piece hatch, with a > > lift top. I have rarely seen him lift the top during the many > years > > he has been living aboard. With the canopy above the hatch, the > > most he can lift it is the same height as the cupola on the hatch, > > the way I originaly designed it. A one piece hatch can be easily > > made as watertight as the lid on a presser cooker. With a two piece > > hatch this is extremely difficult to impossible. It does make for > > extra wages for the builder tho. > > > > When we first began building steel masts for 36 footers, we used > 5 > > 1/2 inch OD tubing with a 11 guage wall thickness. This worked well > > over thousands of miles of ocean cruising, and never threatened to > > be any problem. It did become impossible to find, so we went for 6 > > inch OD( 150mm) tubing. When I told people to go for 6 inch OD, > some > > bought well casing which is 6 5/8th OD with 10 guage wall, much > > heavier. This is the stuff with grooves in the ends for > conectors.As > > it was what they had, we built masts out of it. It worked out OK , > a > > bit heavy for a 36 , but most owners were happy. Several changed > > later to aluminium. When I asked one what the difference was, he > > said " If it had been 6 inch OD it wouldn't have been worth > > changing ,as the difference was minimal. With 6 5/8th it was > > marginaly worth the effort and expense of changing. > > Another advantage is that 6 inch comes in 24 foot lengths , > > eliminating one scarf. > > Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in > the > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a lot > of > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to > Tonga > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > The materials list I give is all you need to build a boat. Evan > > prefers to add a lot of extra materials to the list, as he finds it > > easier and more convenient to simply grab an extra sheet at the > > owners expense and not have to plan material useage. More expense > > for the owner? Tough shit . His convenience is his first priority. > > I have seen an owner with a full sheet left over, which Evan could > > buy for a cut price for his own use. > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > One mistake I have often seen over the years is the use of Lexan > > for > > > pilothouse windows, often by those who have seen it fog up on > other > > > boats. After about three years it begins to fog up, eventually > > making > > > it impossible to see out of that beautiful seat with a view in the > > > wheelhouse. > > > As I mentioned elsewhere on this site, I just pounded a 6 inch > > round > > > of plexi with a sledgehammer without breaking it. It took may hits > > > with the hammer. I don't think the strength of plexi is an issue > > > unless you go for huge picture windows. A friend in the plastics > > > business told me that plexi has 25 times the impact resistance of > > > standard glass. Side windows are far more prone to breaking than > > > front windows at sea.Tempered glass is a different story, and > > allows > > > the use of a wiper, a huge advantage in rainy BC. > > > I used 1/2inch tempered glass for the front of my wheelhouse for > > this > > > reason. Love the hand operated wiper. As the only time it steams > > up > > > is when I'm cooking, and drys off quickly after , I don't see any > > > advantage in double paned glass. An extra 1/4 inch of foam in the > > hull > > > will retain more heat. > > > 3/8th glass has the same weight as the 11 guage steel plate that > > you > > > remove for windows. Anything thicker adds weigh, altho I still > > prefer > > > half inch tempered. > > > Carl , you said you found a good source for glass. Where? I > > heard > > > that Bronco glass in Whiterock was good source , but I went to > > Broco > > > by mistake , a big mistake. I wouldn't recommend them. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > 86 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed since then, Evan has > > since come > > > > to think of himself as an expert, with absolutely no cruising > > > > experience since. A lo tof my boats have crosed a o lot of > oceans > > > > since then and a lot of their input has been added to my > > designs.Evan > > > > used to listen to what I suggested from input from other > > cruisers out > > > > actualy cruising , and follow the directions I gave him. Now > > it's like > > > > trying to get a message thru a brick wall. > > > > For example, he took this 31 footer out for a sail in Georgia > > strait > > > > once, got caught out in a 25 knot westerly , and surprise, > > surprise , > > > > the anchor well vent that he had absolutely no cover on, and no > > way to > > > > close off, got a few splashes of water rin , and scared the > > shit out > > > > of him. He appeared to decide then and there that all vents > > are a > > > > bad idea , because they let water in. > > > > The boat next to me that Evan built has no real vents except > the > > > > hatches , which are all you need if you repeat Evans only > > experience > > > > ,which is tied to the dock , but they don't work beating to > > windward > > > > offshore. You get "dockside only" experience. > > > > A couple in Frisco Bay were camped on a boat that Evan built , > > and > > > > woke up with splitting headaches, in time, fortunately, to > > realise > > > > that the boat was totally airtight. They were suffocating. The > > owner > > > > has since made the ventilation changes that were in the original > > > > design, that Evan had overuled. Don't let an amateur make life > > and > > > > death decisions, of which there are many on offshore cruising > > boats. > > > > On my first run to Tonga and back I didn't have enough > > ventilation , > > > > enough for safety but not enough for comfort. beating to > > windward thru > > > > the tropics for 4,000 miles. I put a couple of four inch cowl > > vents in > > > > for the next trip , and the difference was huge . You still > > need air > > > > in a hurricane , vents that can be left open in any conditions. > > > > Hurricanes don make you immune to suffocation. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > > > You make it sound like all of Evan's boats are crap :). I > > have to > > > > say that > > > > > I had no problems with Evan whatsoever. I never felt any > > pressure > > > > to change > > > > > anything. The most major change I made, was bounced off you > > and you > > > > said it > > > > > would be OK. At the time, Evan had built or helped build 9 > of > > your > > > > boats. > > > > > I don't want to be critical, but to be fair, I have to say > the > > plans > > > > were > > > > > quite "sketchy" at the time and had few details. I am sure > it > > is > > > > different > > > > > now, but this was in 1986. I trusted Evan to interpret the > > plans, > > > > since he > > > > > had the experience in building the boats and had approval by > > you to > > > > build to > > > > > the plans. He made it clear that he had no cruising > > experience. If I > > > > > remember right, I don't think he had actually sailed any boat > > at the > > > > time > > > > > since his own boat had only just been launched. Be that as it > > > may, I am > > > > > sure there were no changes to any of the scantlings since the > > > > materials were > > > > > ordered according to your list. Any design changes, like I > > said, were > > > > > bounced off you. I did make a few of my own minor decisions > > since I > > > > had a > > > > > little bit of offshore crewing and local sailing and > developed > > some > > > > of my > > > > > own opinions. While I was building, you dropped by once in > > awhile and > > > > > voiced no objections as to what was going on. If you had > said > > you > > > > didn't > > > > > like something, I definitely would have changed it. Has any > > two > > > > homebuilt > > > > > boats ever been the same? > > > > > > > > > > In conclusion, as far as my experience goes, any changes to > the > > > > plans were > > > > > my decision and I am to be blamed, not Evan. I am certain I > > could > > > have > > > > > learned more if you had built the boat instead of Evan, but I > > am > > > > extremely > > > > > happy with the result. It has proven itself over and over > > again and > > > > sails > > > > > great. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:25 AM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Common Screwups > > > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an > > board > > > > > if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out > > at low > > > > > tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off > their > > boat > > > > > and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the > > government has > > > > > made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian > > waters. > > > > > I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any > > boats I > > > > > have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, > > > > > especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. > > > > > I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back > > aboard > > > > > any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him > > to do so, > > > > > but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients > struggle > > with > > > > > everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while > > living > > > > > in drying anchorages. > > > > > The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life > tied > > to a > > > > > dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a > > total > > > > > cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes > > life and > > > > > death decisions) > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges > of > > > the twin > > > > > > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > > > > > > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single > > keel will > > > > > > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with > > molten lead > > > > > > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading > > > edge pipe > > > > > > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > > > > > > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long > > after I > > > > > > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made > > the keels > > > > > > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a > > rats ass > > > > > > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have > > your money > > > > > > by then. Tough shit! > > > > > > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the > > wheelhouse , > > > > > > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch > > plate > > > > > > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull > > to a web > > > > > > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on > > the > > > > > > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the > > > strength > > > > > > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of > > the keels > > > > > > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto > > the keels > > > > > > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > > > > > > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end > of > > the > > > > > > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It > > could be > > > > > > neccessary on the 31 tho. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin > > then a flat > > > > > > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to > see > > out > > > > of the > > > > > > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing > in > > the > > > rain > > > > > > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would > be > > > foolish. > > > > > > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor > > space aft. > > > > > > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 > > have had no > > > > > > > problem getting headroom without having to change the > > design > > > in any > > > > > > > way , except lowering the floor. > > > > > > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , > then > > it > > > would > > > > > > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , "Gerrit" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations > > Brent! I > > > > > think > > > > > > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten > when > > someone > > > > > trys > > > > > > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I > > start > > > > building > > > > > > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you > > directly, if I > > > > > would > > > > > > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the > > floor has a > > > > > lot of > > > > > > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this > as > > > > > possible. In > > > > > > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and > > > > pilothouse I > > > > > > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an > > idea how > > > > > I get > > > > > > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin > > and > > > > > > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull > > maybe will > > > > > not be > > > > > > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get > > that. > > > > > Because I > > > > > > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough > > headroom > > > > and if > > > > > > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" > > tall, so I > > > > > think > > > > > > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really > > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly > > high it up > > > > > to my > > > > > > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the > > > > pilothouse and > > > > > > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under > > windvane > > > > in bad > > > > > > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > > > > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release > Date: > > > > 10/19/2008 > > > > > 6:02 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18820|18518|2008-11-14 17:48:29|brentswain38|Re: Common Screwups|Sorry for the typos. Time ran out on this computer. Some people seem to assume that they can build a shell, leave it out in the rain, and watch it grow to completion, without having to touch it again. Dream on. With so many people insisting on new gear and materials, we are awash in used sailing gear and building materials, in excellent or sometimes new condition. Scruffy looking wood only needs a few minutes with a belt sander , or flex pad on the angle grinder to look new . Resourcefullness is the ability to see beyond a scruffy surface ( this applys to people to.). Put a coat of paint on it and a bit of filler made from a mix of oil base paint and talc, and it's age becomes irelevant. If it is plywood it has withstood the torture test of time, somthing that new wood hasn't.. Scrounging for it is not work, but sport. That is why I never charge people for time I spend in scrapyards helping them scrounge what they need( altho I hear some do). I consider that sport, not work. Used sails can often be found at 1/10th the cost of new. Just put a pencil under the stitching and see how easily it breaks . That will tell you how much UV dammage it has had. Some are in new condition. Yet I often hear people who insisted on new sails, and just about everything else , complaining about the cost of ther boat. No sympathy. They have been warned of the dangers of shopping for new gear. If all else fails , follow the directions. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > When Winston Bushnell built his first 36 footer in the late 80's he > launched her with a total of $14,000 in her and by the time he set > saild for Hawaii and the western Pacific he had a total of $17,000 in her. > He did his own work ,or traded labour, and worked in a boat yard and > was thus able to scroung much of the material in her. > Now people assume that they can hire people to build their boat , buy > all the material new at retail prices and end up in the same price > range.Not a chance. No one ever clamied that any boatbuilding method > will let you do things that way and end up with an affordable boat. > apear top assume they can built a shell, leave it out in the rain for > several years and let it grow to completion. No way. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Some people have been omitting proper mooring bits and chocks in the > > stern. I have seen one inch nylon spring lines break in a swell in > > Rarotonga. We should never be so naive as to assume we will find the > > totally sheltered harbours we enjoy at home, in the third > > world. "Yachtie" trendy , dainty little cleats have no place on an > > offsore cruising boat. Without adequate chocks , lines find the first > > thing available to cut themselves on, or trash a lot of other gear in > > the search. Al lines and chocks need to be stronger than the thickest > > lines that will ever use them. If a tug has to pull you of a reef, > > and you don''t have proper morring bits, that is a problem. He isn't > > going to hand you a piece of half inch nylon braid as a tow rope. A > > 2 inch hawser is more likely. Not having bits to take it will be a > > serious problem. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > My neighbour in one of my 36 foters has a two piece hatch, with a > > > lift top. I have rarely seen him lift the top during the many > > years > > > he has been living aboard. With the canopy above the hatch, the > > > most he can lift it is the same height as the cupola on the hatch, > > > the way I originaly designed it. A one piece hatch can be easily > > > made as watertight as the lid on a presser cooker. With a two piece > > > hatch this is extremely difficult to impossible. It does make for > > > extra wages for the builder tho. > > > > > > When we first began building steel masts for 36 footers, we used > > 5 > > > 1/2 inch OD tubing with a 11 guage wall thickness. This worked well > > > over thousands of miles of ocean cruising, and never threatened to > > > be any problem. It did become impossible to find, so we went for 6 > > > inch OD( 150mm) tubing. When I told people to go for 6 inch OD, > > some > > > bought well casing which is 6 5/8th OD with 10 guage wall, much > > > heavier. This is the stuff with grooves in the ends for > > conectors.As > > > it was what they had, we built masts out of it. It worked out OK , > > a > > > bit heavy for a 36 , but most owners were happy. Several changed > > > later to aluminium. When I asked one what the difference was, he > > > said " If it had been 6 inch OD it wouldn't have been worth > > > changing ,as the difference was minimal. With 6 5/8th it was > > > marginaly worth the effort and expense of changing. > > > Another advantage is that 6 inch comes in 24 foot lengths , > > > eliminating one scarf. > > > Some buiders have skipped using proper thru the mast sheaves in > > the > > > mastheads, as I have designed , out of sheer laziness. This > > > eliminates the option of using wire halyards, as the sheaves on > > > blocks are too small to prevent metal fatigue. > > > On my first boat I started out with rope halyards, and had a lot > > of > > > problems with chafe , and stretch . In New Zealand I switched to > > > wire and never looked back. I have got ten years and a trip to > > Tonga > > > and back on a single galvanized wire halyard. > > > The materials list I give is all you need to build a boat. Evan > > > prefers to add a lot of extra materials to the list, as he finds it > > > easier and more convenient to simply grab an extra sheet at the > > > owners expense and not have to plan material useage. More expense > > > for the owner? Tough shit . His convenience is his first priority. > > > I have seen an owner with a full sheet left over, which Evan could > > > buy for a cut price for his own use. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > One mistake I have often seen over the years is the use of Lexan > > > for > > > > pilothouse windows, often by those who have seen it fog up on > > other > > > > boats. After about three years it begins to fog up, eventually > > > making > > > > it impossible to see out of that beautiful seat with a view in the > > > > wheelhouse. > > > > As I mentioned elsewhere on this site, I just pounded a 6 inch > > > round > > > > of plexi with a sledgehammer without breaking it. It took may hits > > > > with the hammer. I don't think the strength of plexi is an issue > > > > unless you go for huge picture windows. A friend in the plastics > > > > business told me that plexi has 25 times the impact resistance of > > > > standard glass. Side windows are far more prone to breaking than > > > > front windows at sea.Tempered glass is a different story, and > > > allows > > > > the use of a wiper, a huge advantage in rainy BC. > > > > I used 1/2inch tempered glass for the front of my wheelhouse for > > > this > > > > reason. Love the hand operated wiper. As the only time it steams > > > up > > > > is when I'm cooking, and drys off quickly after , I don't see any > > > > advantage in double paned glass. An extra 1/4 inch of foam in the > > > hull > > > > will retain more heat. > > > > 3/8th glass has the same weight as the 11 guage steel plate that > > > you > > > > remove for windows. Anything thicker adds weigh, altho I still > > > prefer > > > > half inch tempered. > > > > Carl , you said you found a good source for glass. Where? I > > > heard > > > > that Bronco glass in Whiterock was good source , but I went to > > > Broco > > > > by mistake , a big mistake. I wouldn't recommend them. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > 86 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed since then, Evan has > > > since come > > > > > to think of himself as an expert, with absolutely no cruising > > > > > experience since. A lo tof my boats have crosed a o lot of > > oceans > > > > > since then and a lot of their input has been added to my > > > designs.Evan > > > > > used to listen to what I suggested from input from other > > > cruisers out > > > > > actualy cruising , and follow the directions I gave him. Now > > > it's like > > > > > trying to get a message thru a brick wall. > > > > > For example, he took this 31 footer out for a sail in Georgia > > > strait > > > > > once, got caught out in a 25 knot westerly , and surprise, > > > surprise , > > > > > the anchor well vent that he had absolutely no cover on, and no > > > way to > > > > > close off, got a few splashes of water rin , and scared the > > > shit out > > > > > of him. He appeared to decide then and there that all vents > > > are a > > > > > bad idea , because they let water in. > > > > > The boat next to me that Evan built has no real vents except > > the > > > > > hatches , which are all you need if you repeat Evans only > > > experience > > > > > ,which is tied to the dock , but they don't work beating to > > > windward > > > > > offshore. You get "dockside only" experience. > > > > > A couple in Frisco Bay were camped on a boat that Evan built , > > > and > > > > > woke up with splitting headaches, in time, fortunately, to > > > realise > > > > > that the boat was totally airtight. They were suffocating. The > > > owner > > > > > has since made the ventilation changes that were in the original > > > > > design, that Evan had overuled. Don't let an amateur make life > > > and > > > > > death decisions, of which there are many on offshore cruising > > > boats. > > > > > On my first run to Tonga and back I didn't have enough > > > ventilation , > > > > > enough for safety but not enough for comfort. beating to > > > windward thru > > > > > the tropics for 4,000 miles. I put a couple of four inch cowl > > > vents in > > > > > for the next trip , and the difference was huge . You still > > > need air > > > > > in a hurricane , vents that can be left open in any conditions. > > > > > Hurricanes don make you immune to suffocation. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > You make it sound like all of Evan's boats are crap :). I > > > have to > > > > > say that > > > > > > I had no problems with Evan whatsoever. I never felt any > > > pressure > > > > > to change > > > > > > anything. The most major change I made, was bounced off you > > > and you > > > > > said it > > > > > > would be OK. At the time, Evan had built or helped build 9 > > of > > > your > > > > > boats. > > > > > > I don't want to be critical, but to be fair, I have to say > > the > > > plans > > > > > were > > > > > > quite "sketchy" at the time and had few details. I am sure > > it > > > is > > > > > different > > > > > > now, but this was in 1986. I trusted Evan to interpret the > > > plans, > > > > > since he > > > > > > had the experience in building the boats and had approval by > > > you to > > > > > build to > > > > > > the plans. He made it clear that he had no cruising > > > experience. If I > > > > > > remember right, I don't think he had actually sailed any boat > > > at the > > > > > time > > > > > > since his own boat had only just been launched. Be that as it > > > > may, I am > > > > > > sure there were no changes to any of the scantlings since the > > > > > materials were > > > > > > ordered according to your list. Any design changes, like I > > > said, were > > > > > > bounced off you. I did make a few of my own minor decisions > > > since I > > > > > had a > > > > > > little bit of offshore crewing and local sailing and > > developed > > > some > > > > > of my > > > > > > own opinions. While I was building, you dropped by once in > > > awhile and > > > > > > voiced no objections as to what was going on. If you had > > said > > > you > > > > > didn't > > > > > > like something, I definitely would have changed it. Has any > > > two > > > > > homebuilt > > > > > > boats ever been the same? > > > > > > > > > > > > In conclusion, as far as my experience goes, any changes to > > the > > > > > plans were > > > > > > my decision and I am to be blamed, not Evan. I am certain I > > > could > > > > have > > > > > > learned more if you had built the boat instead of Evan, but I > > > am > > > > > extremely > > > > > > happy with the result. It has proven itself over and over > > > again and > > > > > sails > > > > > > great. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:25 AM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Common Screwups > > > > > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is leaving out any means of getting an > > > board > > > > > > if you fall overboard, or if you have a twin keeler dried out > > > at low > > > > > > tide. About 6 people a year in BC die when they fall off > > their > > > boat > > > > > > and are unable to gt back aboard. For this reason the > > > government has > > > > > > made a "Reboarding device" mandatory on all boats in Canadian > > > waters. > > > > > > I have always welded stainless rod rungs onthe transom of any > > > boats I > > > > > > have detailed, and a lowerable boarding ladder on the transom, > > > > > > especially for twin keelers, as described in mn book. > > > > > > I have yet to see Evan put any means whatever to get back > > > aboard > > > > > > any of the boats I've seen him build . I have encouraged him > > > to do so, > > > > > > but he stubbornly refuses. I have watched his clients > > struggle > > > with > > > > > > everything from tires to shipping pallets to get aboard while > > > living > > > > > > in drying anchorages. > > > > > > The only twin keeler he ever owned spent it's entire life > > tied > > > to a > > > > > > dock, except for a few daysails. Another example of hiring a > > > total > > > > > > cruising amateur to make your decisions for you ( sometimes > > > life and > > > > > > death decisions) > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another common screwup is going pipe for the leading edges > > of > > > > the twin > > > > > > > keels or sch 40 for the leading edge of the single keel. > > > > > > > Anything under sch 80 for the leading edges of the single > > > keel will > > > > > > > dent deeply if you hit a rock at hull speed, even with > > > molten lead > > > > > > > poured in behind it. Half inch wall thickness on the leading > > > > edge pipe > > > > > > > won't dent, no matter how hard you hit a rock. > > > > > > > With twin keels , Evan Shaler insisted on using pipe, long > > > after I > > > > > > > told him it was grossly inadequate. Why ? Becuase it made > > > the keels > > > > > > > lighter and easier for him to work with. He couldn't give a > > > rats ass > > > > > > > if they crumpled the first time you hit a rock. He'd have > > > your money > > > > > > > by then. Tough shit! > > > > > > > If the trailing edges of your keels end up ahead of the > > > wheelhouse , > > > > > > > one could take the load further aft by putting a half inch > > > plate > > > > > > > gusset from where the keels protrude 3 inches into the hull > > > to a web > > > > > > > accross the hull further aft. This, with another gusset on > > > the > > > > > > > outside, would add a lot of strength. One could increase the > > > > strength > > > > > > > of the attachement of this gusset to the trailing edge of > > > the keels > > > > > > > inside by lapping a couple of plates from the gusset onto > > > the keels > > > > > > > with an airtight weld all around, of course. > > > > > > > This shouldn't be needed with a 36 footer, as the aft end > > of > > > the > > > > > > > keels are far enough back to end up in the wheelhouse. It > > > could be > > > > > > > neccessary on the 31 tho. > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you give yourself 6ft 3 headroom in the trunk cabin > > > then a flat > > > > > > > > floor would mean you would have to stand on a stool to > > see > > > out > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > wheelhouse. Not having a wheelhouse would mean freezing > > in > > > the > > > > rain > > > > > > > > and snow or cooking in the sun when underway. That would > > be > > > > foolish. > > > > > > > > It would also drasticaly reduce storage space and floor > > > space aft. > > > > > > > > 6ft 3 headroom is no problem, as people who are 6 ft 6 > > > have had no > > > > > > > > problem getting headroom without having to change the > > > design > > > > in any > > > > > > > > way , except lowering the floor. > > > > > > > > If I head offshore it won't be until next september , > > then > > > it > > > > would > > > > > > > > probably be Mexico, where computers are common and cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > , "Gerrit" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi there! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im reading very interested your words and informations > > > Brent! I > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > > everything is logical but maybe sometimes forgotten > > when > > > someone > > > > > > trys > > > > > > > > > to "optimate" his boat.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope you will be not too much out on the sea when I > > > start > > > > > building > > > > > > > > > my boat, so that I can get some answers from you > > > directly, if I > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > like to change some things on my Swain 36. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I look to the accomodation plans, so I see the > > > floor has a > > > > > > lot of > > > > > > > > > steps inside the cabin. I would like to eliminate this > > as > > > > > > possible. In > > > > > > > > > the foreship it can be used, but in the main cabin and > > > > > pilothouse I > > > > > > > > > would like to eliminate as possible. Maybe you have an > > > idea how > > > > > > I get > > > > > > > > > a plain floor and a headroom of 6'3" in the main cabin > > > and > > > > > > > > > pilothouse. I know that rising up the cabin or hull > > > maybe will > > > > > > not be > > > > > > > > > a good idea, but that seems to be the only way to get > > > that. > > > > > > Because I > > > > > > > > > will liveboard it is important for me to get enough > > > headroom > > > > > and if > > > > > > > > > ever possible the plain floor inside the ship.Im 6'3" > > > tall, so I > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > > that I would need this headroom to feel really > > > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I aslo thought about using a trunk cabin and slightly > > > high it up > > > > > > to my > > > > > > > > > needs, but the I will loose some good storage of the > > > > > pilothouse and > > > > > > > > > the possibility watch out easily while sailing under > > > windvane > > > > > in bad > > > > > > > > > conditions at sea.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So how should I do to get my "perfect" ship? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, Gerrit > > > > > > > > > planed Swain 36 "Johanna" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > > > > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1733 - Release > > Date: > > > > > 10/19/2008 > > > > > > 6:02 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18821|18800|2008-11-14 17:51:12|brentswain38|Re: I,m looking to buy a mast|You need 46 feet of mast, minimum, for a 36. If you can find the same extrusion you can add it on with a sleeve inside , as long as the diameter and wall thickness are adequate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > wrote: > > > > Hello Rowland > > Did you get a new boat or are you building one? > > James. > > > Hi James > Kind of a long story. As you may or may not know our original hull > was stolen and scraped. :( After a couple of months we made an offer > to purchase Gene's old hull but unfortunately for us I had > underestimated the start up costs of our new business and also under > estimated the time it would take to start seeing some decent money. ( > which business doesn't go through this? lol) the result being that I > couldn't afford to buy his hull so we had to let it go. > > Fast forward about 6 months and now we are slowly starting to turn > things around and I'm itching to get a boat again or at least start > building the parts. I had wrongly assummed the boat was gone so I > started pricing out steel, keeping an eye for building spots etc. but > nothing was definite. I was also faced with the task of trying to > remove my brand new aluminum extrusion and lots of nice wood that was > still on the land that my boat was stolen from. This was causing me > some stress since we'd already lost the boat, losing the mast and > wood probably would'vemade me go postal. lol > > I decided that I'd rather sell my mast for next to nothing than let > it wind up in a scrap yard or become damaged from neglect since "the > creep" had sold the 50 ft. trailer it was sitting on (blocked) out > from under it, for scrap too. My father in law was going to drive to > the Island and at least get the wood, when I thought up a possible > win-win situation. I knew a builder who might want a mast and have > the room to store our wood, so I approached him with my dilema. He > took the mast for a great price and agreed to store our wood. I was > happy since our wood was safe and our mast would be used for it's > intended purposes, (NOT SCRAP/beer money for some punk) helping to > transport a Swain boat around the world. (Even if it wasn't on our > boat.) > > Ironically in less than 24 hrs. I got ahold of Gene and discovered > that his hull was still for sale and we made a deal. Ironically or > maybe "karmically" I had a hull again but my mast was "gone". Bev > and I think that maybe by doing a good deed by letting our mast go > for cheap, to someone that would use and appreciate it,this boat deal > became possible. Who knows I'm just glad to be on the "Heretic > highway" again, although now that I'm pricing masts out :(( Ugh! > Steel or birdsmouth are definitely looking favorable at this point. > > Rowland > | 18822|18800|2008-11-14 18:14:04|kingsknight4life|Re: I,m looking to buy a mast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Rowland > Have you sued the scrap dealer yet or put a lien on his assets and > bank account? That should finish your boat. > Brent meeting with a lawyer next week,time permitting. rowland| 18823|18518|2008-11-14 18:23:42|kingsknight4life|Re: Common Screwups|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Used sails can often be found at 1/10th the cost of new. Just put a > pencil under the stitching and see how easily it breaks . That will > tell you how much UV dammage it has had. Some are in new condition. > Yet I often hear people who insisted on new sails, and just about > everything else , complaining about the cost of ther boat. No > sympathy. They have been warned of the dangers of shopping for new > gear. If all else fails , follow the directions. > Brent > >Brent What are the sail dimensions? Assuming a guy can find a 47 ft. mast? I'm going o start looking now so that when I spot a dealI can pounce on it. rowland| 18824|18824|2008-11-14 20:10:04|kingsknight4life|more questions?|Brent or anyone else : ) Does the rigging on a 36 footer need to be 3/8"or is 5/16 (galvanized) strong enough? I found a source of galvanzed wire rope close to my house that recommended 7x19 over the 1x7 I thought I needed. It (7x19) sure is a LOT less stiff and would be easier to work with. Living in "Oil Country" there's lots of places that deal in wire rope and rigging. I'll do a site search, about end fittings but anyone willing to give their 2 cents worth on swaged vs poured vs spliced etc. please feel free to join in. I know poured is the strongest but how reliable are the homemade fittings in your book Brent? The reason I ask is that the details are kind of...lacking... it just says cut a tube into a cone and not much else?? Any additional info. for the technically challenged? I may also have found a source for Norseman/Sta Lok type fittings but for industrial use that may wind up being cheaper so I'll keep the group informed. Rowland| 18825|18824|2008-11-14 22:30:31|Carl Anderson|Re: more questions?|A properly spliced eye has 100% of the strength of the wire. You can't get any stronger than that. The type of eye needed in the end of 7X19 is different than what you would use on the 1X7. I used a fisherman's splice on the 1X7 that I used for my rigging. You would probably need to use a liverpool splice (very much more complicated) if you went with 7X19. As for strength 5/16" would be just fine in 1X7 as long as it is EHS rated (extra high strength) as that would give it 11,000 pounds at breaking strength. BE CAREFUL here as the common grade 5/16" 1X7 only has about 3,500 pounds breaking strength!!! One other concern is that the galvanizing on the 7X19 is not as heavy as the 1X7 so you will have rust occurring sooner. This is because the individual strands are so much smaller on the 7X19 wire. Carl kingsknight4life wrote: > > > Brent or anyone else : ) > > Does the rigging on a 36 footer need to be 3/8"or is 5/16 (galvanized) > strong enough? I found a source of galvanzed wire rope close to my > house that recommended 7x19 over the 1x7 I thought I needed. It (7x19) > sure is a LOT less stiff and would be easier to work with. Living > in "Oil Country" there's lots of places that deal in wire rope and > rigging. > > I'll do a site search, about end fittings but anyone willing to give > their 2 cents worth on swaged vs poured vs spliced etc. please feel > free to join in. I know poured is the strongest but how reliable are > the homemade fittings in your book Brent? The reason I ask is that the > details are kind of...lacking... it just says cut a tube into a cone > and not much else?? Any additional info. for the technically challenged? > > I may also have found a source for Norseman/Sta Lok type fittings but > for industrial use that may wind up being cheaper so I'll keep the > group informed. > > Rowland > > | 18826|18824|2008-11-14 22:51:55|Gary H. Lucas|Re: more questions?|I'd still love to see someone try the preformed eyes used by ALL the utility companies to guy poles. No utility uses any of those other kinds of eyes that I have ever seen. I've installed lots of them myself. They take about 30 seconds, and we then pulled them up with thousands of pounds of load. I can't remember ever seeing any slip or come off. And yes utility poles see a hell of a lot of wind, and they do NOT get any maintenance until they actually fail! If nothing else I'd carry some on board for emergency repairs. You can even install eyes on a cable in the middle, so you wouldn't have to cut your spare down. Leave the tail coiled on deck until you get to port and do a regular repair. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Anderson" To: Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] more questions? >A properly spliced eye has 100% of the strength of the wire. You can't > get any stronger than that. The type of eye needed in the end of 7X19 > is different than what you would use on the 1X7. I used a fisherman's > splice on the 1X7 that I used for my rigging. You would probably need > to use a liverpool splice (very much more complicated) if you went with > 7X19. As for strength 5/16" would be just fine in 1X7 as long as it is > EHS rated (extra high strength) as that would give it 11,000 pounds at > breaking strength. BE CAREFUL here as the common grade 5/16" 1X7 only > has about 3,500 pounds breaking strength!!! One other concern is that > the galvanizing on the 7X19 is not as heavy as the 1X7 so you will have > rust occurring sooner. This is because the individual strands are so > much smaller on the 7X19 wire. > > Carl > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: >> >> >> Brent or anyone else : ) >> >> Does the rigging on a 36 footer need to be 3/8"or is 5/16 (galvanized) >> strong enough? I found a source of galvanzed wire rope close to my >> house that recommended 7x19 over the 1x7 I thought I needed. It (7x19) >> sure is a LOT less stiff and would be easier to work with. Living >> in "Oil Country" there's lots of places that deal in wire rope and >> rigging. >> >> I'll do a site search, about end fittings but anyone willing to give >> their 2 cents worth on swaged vs poured vs spliced etc. please feel >> free to join in. I know poured is the strongest but how reliable are >> the homemade fittings in your book Brent? The reason I ask is that the >> details are kind of...lacking... it just says cut a tube into a cone >> and not much else?? Any additional info. for the technically challenged? >> >> I may also have found a source for Norseman/Sta Lok type fittings but >> for industrial use that may wind up being cheaper so I'll keep the >> group informed. >> >> Rowland >> >> > > | 18827|18824|2008-11-15 09:11:22|adam|Re: more questions?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I'd still love to see someone try the preformed eyes used by ALL the utility > companies to guy poles. No utility uses any of those other kinds of eyes > that I have ever seen. I've installed lots of them myself. They take about > 30 seconds, and we then pulled them up with thousands of pounds of load. I > can't remember ever seeing any slip or come off. And yes utility poles see > a hell of a lot of wind, and they do NOT get any maintenance until they > actually fail! > > If nothing else I'd carry some on board for emergency repairs. You can even > install eyes on a cable in the middle, so you wouldn't have to cut your > spare down. Leave the tail coiled on deck until you get to port and do a > regular repair. > > Gary H. Lucas Does anybody have a source contact info for these preformed eyes? I have been looking around at industrial fastener places (brafasco and such) without any luck. I'm in Ontario, but if I can't find local, would have no problem ordering. Cheers! Adam| 18828|18824|2008-11-15 10:17:08|Carl Anderson|Conduit...|In Moonflower Of Moab, we ran conduit in against the hull for propane & electrical wire before we foamed. IF we had it to do over again, we'd use 1" conduit & 90 degree ends. We found the 1" great for the propane/ stove runs w/ 90 degree ends easy to pull the rubber hose through. The electrical we did 3/4 & had 45 degree ends. MUCH harder to pull wire thru & the ends were a b***h. ALSO we wished we'd done MORE conduit... Just thought I'd let you guys in on our "pillow talk" tis' morning - Today our local ski resort opens & we're set to go slide around.... Nevertheless, our boat building is always foremost on our minds. I just finished reading "The Long Way" by Moitessier. Cheers! kate moonflowerofmoab.com| 18829|18824|2008-11-15 10:52:59|Carl Anderson|Re: Conduit...|Kate got the 90 & 45 backwards in her post. Carl Carl Anderson wrote: > > > In Moonflower Of Moab, we ran conduit in against the hull for propane & > electrical wire before we foamed. IF we had it to do over again, we'd > use 1" conduit & 90 degree ends. We found the 1" great for the propane/ > stove runs w/ 90 degree ends easy to pull the rubber hose through. The > electrical we did 3/4 & had 45 degree ends. MUCH harder to pull wire > thru & the ends were a b***h. ALSO we wished we'd done MORE conduit... > > Just thought I'd let you guys in on our "pillow talk" tis' morning - > Today our local ski resort opens & we're set to go slide around.... > Nevertheless, our boat building is always foremost on our minds. > I just finished reading "The Long Way" by Moitessier. > > Cheers! > kate > moonflowerofmoab.com > | 18830|18824|2008-11-15 11:36:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: more questions?|On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 02:09:53PM -0000, adam wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > I'd still love to see someone try the preformed eyes used by ALL the utility > > companies to guy poles. No utility uses any of those other kinds of eyes > > that I have ever seen. I've installed lots of them myself. They take about > > 30 seconds, and we then pulled them up with thousands of pounds of load. I > > can't remember ever seeing any slip or come off. > > Does anybody have a source contact info for these preformed eyes? I > have been looking around at industrial fastener places (brafasco and > such) without any luck. I'm in Ontario, but if I can't find local, > would have no problem ordering. I _think_ that what Gary is talking about - and please correct me if I'm wrong - are so-called wedge sockets: http://www.tpub.com/content/engine/14081/css/14081_324.htm (Incidentally, I *love* tpub. They have all the US military manuals on-line, and those things are written much like the equipment manuals in the 1950s: thorough, pains-taking, precise, and clear explanations of what and where and how.) This type of socket is available everywhere including simple hardware stores. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18831|18824|2008-11-15 12:17:32|John Langelo|Re: more questions?|Find one of the Ontario Hydro work yards and see if you can buy them there explaning what there for.   John --- On Sat, 11/15/08, adam wrote: From: adam Subject: [origamiboats] Re: more questions? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 6:09 AM --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I'd still love to see someone try the preformed eyes used by ALL the utility > companies to guy poles. No utility uses any of those other kinds of eyes > that I have ever seen. I've installed lots of them myself. They take about > 30 seconds, and we then pulled them up with thousands of pounds of load. I > can't remember ever seeing any slip or come off. And yes utility poles see > a hell of a lot of wind, and they do NOT get any maintenance until they > actually fail! > > If nothing else I'd carry some on board for emergency repairs. You can even > install eyes on a cable in the middle, so you wouldn't have to cut your > spare down. Leave the tail coiled on deck until you get to port and do a > regular repair. > > Gary H. Lucas Does anybody have a source contact info for these preformed eyes? I have been looking around at industrial fastener places (brafasco and such) without any luck. I'm in Ontario, but if I can't find local, would have no problem ordering. Cheers! Adam __________________________________________________________________ Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18832|18824|2008-11-15 12:30:39|Mall family|Re: Conduit...|The Long Way is a truly extraordinary meditation on what some sailors do, isn`t it ? My main distraction in life has been climbing , both mountain and rock , and i only rarely ventured fully offshore in my sailing boat till now , but i do understand some of what Moitessier was tring to say , i think. Were he alive today , he maybe wouldn`t want to be . jim , Diadem On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Carl Anderson wrote: > In Moonflower Of Moab, we ran conduit in against the hull for propane & > electrical wire before we foamed. IF we had it to do over again, we'd > use 1" conduit & 90 degree ends. We found the 1" great for the propane/ > stove runs w/ 90 degree ends easy to pull the rubber hose through. The > electrical we did 3/4 & had 45 degree ends. MUCH harder to pull wire > thru & the ends were a b***h. ALSO we wished we'd done MORE conduit... > > Just thought I'd let you guys in on our "pillow talk" tis' morning - > Today our local ski resort opens & we're set to go slide around.... > Nevertheless, our boat building is always foremost on our minds. > I just finished reading "The Long Way" by Moitessier. > > Cheers! > kate > moonflowerofmoab.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18833|18824|2008-11-15 14:06:38|Carl Anderson|Mall Offshore Family|& where are you "off shore"? & yes, Bernard would not be so free, me thinks. We've read all the Pardy's, Roths, Evans & Beth, now Bernard. What other guys should we read? thanks, k M.O.M. Mall family wrote: > > > The Long Way is a truly extraordinary meditation on what some sailors do, > isn`t it ? My main distraction in life has been climbing , both mountain > and rock , and i only rarely ventured fully offshore in my sailing boat till > now , but i do understand some of what Moitessier was tring to say , i > think. > Were he alive today , he maybe wouldn`t want to be . > jim , Diadem > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Carl Anderson >wrote: > > > In Moonflower Of Moab, we ran conduit in against the hull for propane & > > electrical wire before we foamed. IF we had it to do over again, we'd > > use 1" conduit & 90 degree ends. We found the 1" great for the propane/ > > stove runs w/ 90 degree ends easy to pull the rubber hose through. The > > electrical we did 3/4 & had 45 degree ends. MUCH harder to pull wire > > thru & the ends were a b***h. ALSO we wished we'd done MORE conduit... > > > > Just thought I'd let you guys in on our "pillow talk" tis' morning - > > Today our local ski resort opens & we're set to go slide around.... > > Nevertheless, our boat building is always foremost on our minds. > > I just finished reading "The Long Way" by Moitessier. > > > > Cheers! > > kate > > moonflowerofmoab.com > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18834|18834|2008-11-15 14:24:13|vjmtymo|lead|Who's the guy with the Colvin boat looking to get rid of his lead? Drop me a line. Victor| 18835|18789|2008-11-15 16:28:38|Martin Demers|Re: FW: V.W. diesel|Hi, I have a few questions concerning your VW installation; where did you exit your exhaust? did you insulate it and with what? can you send me a picture of the engine showing the adapter plate do you use the VW car starter? Thanks, Martin. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > I made an adaptor plate from 1/2" steel to join the motor and > transmission. No water is used in the dry exhaust. No salt water > enters or leavss the engine compartment. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > when you mention dry exhaust do you men that you dont have a wet > exhaust manifold? > > is your transmission bolted to a belhousing on the engine or is it > bolted apart? > > > > > > Martin. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: notify@yahoogroups.com [mailto:notify@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of > > > richytill > > > Sent: Friday, 7 November 2008 16:11 > > > > > > > > > I'm running a VW 16D into a Borg Warner velvet drive 2.5:1. The > > > injector pump is limmited to run the engine at 3300 rpm for about > 30 > > > hp. The motor came from a wrecked Rabbit. With a 3 blade > Campbels > > > Sailor prop, the unit pushes a flush-deck fin-keel BS 36 at 6-7 > knots > > > depending on conditions. We cruise at 2300-2400 rpm for 5-6 > knots. > > > The drive has propelled us from Sooke to Queen Charlotte Straight > and > > > many,many places between for the last 3 years with no problems. > The > > > starter must be protected with a heat shield. The motor cost > $850 > > > cdn from a wrecker but fire departments will sell them for less > from > > > practice cars if you can find one. The rebuilt velevet drive > cost > > > $1150. Ask for the 80 amp Bosch alternator if you can get it. > My > > > dry exhaust is all 2" 316 ss-- it cost a trip to a dumpster and a > > > bottle of Glenfidich plus the welding. A heat exchanger is > required > > > for an oil cooler. Use an expired propane tank for an > > > expansion/header tank if you wish; they come free at the propane > > > dealers. Don't cheap out on the transmission or it will likely > fail > > > you. There is a litany of failed transmission stories at the > harbour > > > here. > > > > > > | 18836|18824|2008-11-15 17:49:51|Mall family|Re: Mall Offshore Family|"voyage for madmen " --- i think it`s called ! Also, Robin Knox-Johnson was off Biscay , now snug back home in Scotland , and boat on hard at Loch Ness , awaiting re-varnishing (deks olyie ) of mast and spars. jim On 11/15/08, Carl Anderson wrote: > > & where are you "off shore"? > > & yes, Bernard would not be so free, me thinks. > We've read all the Pardy's, Roths, Evans & Beth, now Bernard. What > other guys should we read? > > thanks, > k > M.O.M. > Mall family wrote: > > > > > > The Long Way is a truly extraordinary meditation on what some sailors do, > > isn`t it ? My main distraction in life has been climbing , both mountain > > and rock , and i only rarely ventured fully offshore in my sailing boat > till > > now , but i do understand some of what Moitessier was tring to say , i > > think. > > Were he alive today , he maybe wouldn`t want to be . > > jim , Diadem > > > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Carl Anderson > > >>wrote: > > > > > In Moonflower Of Moab, we ran conduit in against the hull for propane & > > > electrical wire before we foamed. IF we had it to do over again, we'd > > > use 1" conduit & 90 degree ends. We found the 1" great for the propane/ > > > stove runs w/ 90 degree ends easy to pull the rubber hose through. The > > > electrical we did 3/4 & had 45 degree ends. MUCH harder to pull wire > > > thru & the ends were a b***h. ALSO we wished we'd done MORE conduit... > > > > > > Just thought I'd let you guys in on our "pillow talk" tis' morning - > > > Today our local ski resort opens & we're set to go slide around.... > > > Nevertheless, our boat building is always foremost on our minds. > > > I just finished reading "The Long Way" by Moitessier. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > kate > > > moonflowerofmoab.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18837|18824|2008-11-15 18:10:24|brentswain38|Re: more questions?|5/16th is all you need. Finer strands make it easier to work with ,initially , but once they show any rust they lose their strength very quickly.I prefer high tensile 1x7 for that reason. Harder to work with but lasts much longer.My book tells you how to tell the difference between high tensile and the soft stuff but simply bending it tells you what you have. The soft stuff bends like lead. Don't use it. The high tensile has a good spring to it. We bought enough out of a scrapyard to rig a 36 footer for $15. For the poured ends you make up the cone and weld the loop over the seam. Making the loop long makes it easier to work with once you put the wire in, as it gives you more room. You push the wire end thru, then bend the last half inch of each strand back on itself, 180 degrees. Then you pull it back into the cone, wrap a wet rag around the end and the wire where it leaves the fitting and pour molten zinc in, and let it cool slightly , before going on to the next one. Poured sockets are the strongest ever , far stronger than the wire,and the only ends aproved for bridges and elevators. Aluminium and copper ones are nowhere near the strength of the wire unless you do a flemish eye before putting the sleeve over it. Most industrial wire is now done with stainless sleeves. They match the strength of the wire. I used sleeves for the top and poured sockets for the bottom as the bottoms corrode more from water running down and corroding the wire under the thimbles. You can get that stiff wire around the thimbles by pre bending a 90 degree bend where the thimble ends on both ends. Then when you wrap it around the thimble the 90s touch and make it much easier to force the thimble down tight. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Brent or anyone else : ) > > Does the rigging on a 36 footer need to be 3/8"or is 5/16 (galvanized) > strong enough? I found a source of galvanzed wire rope close to my > house that recommended 7x19 over the 1x7 I thought I needed. It (7x19) > sure is a LOT less stiff and would be easier to work with. Living > in "Oil Country" there's lots of places that deal in wire rope and > rigging. > > I'll do a site search, about end fittings but anyone willing to give > their 2 cents worth on swaged vs poured vs spliced etc. please feel > free to join in. I know poured is the strongest but how reliable are > the homemade fittings in your book Brent? The reason I ask is that the > details are kind of...lacking... it just says cut a tube into a cone > and not much else?? Any additional info. for the technically challenged? > > I may also have found a source for Norseman/Sta Lok type fittings but > for industrial use that may wind up being cheaper so I'll keep the > group informed. > > Rowland > | 18838|18824|2008-11-15 18:12:25|brentswain38|Re: more questions?|-With the strands on 7x19 being so much thinner it takes far less time for them to rust thru once they begin to rust. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > A properly spliced eye has 100% of the strength of the wire. You can't > get any stronger than that. The type of eye needed in the end of 7X19 > is different than what you would use on the 1X7. I used a fisherman's > splice on the 1X7 that I used for my rigging. You would probably need > to use a liverpool splice (very much more complicated) if you went with > 7X19. As for strength 5/16" would be just fine in 1X7 as long as it is > EHS rated (extra high strength) as that would give it 11,000 pounds at > breaking strength. BE CAREFUL here as the common grade 5/16" 1X7 only > has about 3,500 pounds breaking strength!!! One other concern is that > the galvanizing on the 7X19 is not as heavy as the 1X7 so you will have > rust occurring sooner. This is because the individual strands are so > much smaller on the 7X19 wire. > > Carl > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > > Brent or anyone else : ) > > > > Does the rigging on a 36 footer need to be 3/8"or is 5/16 (galvanized) > > strong enough? I found a source of galvanzed wire rope close to my > > house that recommended 7x19 over the 1x7 I thought I needed. It (7x19) > > sure is a LOT less stiff and would be easier to work with. Living > > in "Oil Country" there's lots of places that deal in wire rope and > > rigging. > > > > I'll do a site search, about end fittings but anyone willing to give > > their 2 cents worth on swaged vs poured vs spliced etc. please feel > > free to join in. I know poured is the strongest but how reliable are > > the homemade fittings in your book Brent? The reason I ask is that the > > details are kind of...lacking... it just says cut a tube into a cone > > and not much else?? Any additional info. for the technically challenged? > > > > I may also have found a source for Norseman/Sta Lok type fittings but > > for industrial use that may wind up being cheaper so I'll keep the > > group informed. > > > > Rowland > > > > > | 18839|18824|2008-11-15 18:15:16|brentswain38|Re: more questions?|Those pre formed eyes will take a huge steady pull. With the cyclical tugging on a sailboat they give a little each tug . A friend had his all begin pulling out off the Oregon coast and had to do some fast work with cable clamps. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I'd still love to see someone try the preformed eyes used by ALL the utility > companies to guy poles. No utility uses any of those other kinds of eyes > that I have ever seen. I've installed lots of them myself. They take about > 30 seconds, and we then pulled them up with thousands of pounds of load. I > can't remember ever seeing any slip or come off. And yes utility poles see > a hell of a lot of wind, and they do NOT get any maintenance until they > actually fail! > > If nothing else I'd carry some on board for emergency repairs. You can even > install eyes on a cable in the middle, so you wouldn't have to cut your > spare down. Leave the tail coiled on deck until you get to port and do a > regular repair. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Anderson" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:30 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] more questions? > > > >A properly spliced eye has 100% of the strength of the wire. You can't > > get any stronger than that. The type of eye needed in the end of 7X19 > > is different than what you would use on the 1X7. I used a fisherman's > > splice on the 1X7 that I used for my rigging. You would probably need > > to use a liverpool splice (very much more complicated) if you went with > > 7X19. As for strength 5/16" would be just fine in 1X7 as long as it is > > EHS rated (extra high strength) as that would give it 11,000 pounds at > > breaking strength. BE CAREFUL here as the common grade 5/16" 1X7 only > > has about 3,500 pounds breaking strength!!! One other concern is that > > the galvanizing on the 7X19 is not as heavy as the 1X7 so you will have > > rust occurring sooner. This is because the individual strands are so > > much smaller on the 7X19 wire. > > > > Carl > > > > > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > >> > >> > >> Brent or anyone else : ) > >> > >> Does the rigging on a 36 footer need to be 3/8"or is 5/16 (galvanized) > >> strong enough? I found a source of galvanzed wire rope close to my > >> house that recommended 7x19 over the 1x7 I thought I needed. It (7x19) > >> sure is a LOT less stiff and would be easier to work with. Living > >> in "Oil Country" there's lots of places that deal in wire rope and > >> rigging. > >> > >> I'll do a site search, about end fittings but anyone willing to give > >> their 2 cents worth on swaged vs poured vs spliced etc. please feel > >> free to join in. I know poured is the strongest but how reliable are > >> the homemade fittings in your book Brent? The reason I ask is that the > >> details are kind of...lacking... it just says cut a tube into a cone > >> and not much else?? Any additional info. for the technically challenged? > >> > >> I may also have found a source for Norseman/Sta Lok type fittings but > >> for industrial use that may wind up being cheaper so I'll keep the > >> group informed. > >> > >> Rowland > >> > >> > > > > > | 18840|18824|2008-11-15 18:26:17|Carl Volkwein|Re: more questions?|Would the 1X7 with the common "fishermans splice and its 3500 lbs. breaking strenth be flexable enoughforthe halyard wire? carlvolkwein --- On Sat, 11/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: more questions? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 6:12 PM -With the strands on 7x19 being so much thinner it takes far less time for them to rust thru once they begin to rust. Brent -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > A properly spliced eye has 100% of the strength of the wire. You can't > get any stronger than that. The type of eye needed in the end of 7X19 > is different than what you would use on the 1X7. I used a fisherman's > splice on the 1X7 that I used for my rigging. You would probably need > to use a liverpool splice (very much more complicated) if you went with > 7X19. As for strength 5/16" would be just fine in 1X7 as long as it is > EHS rated (extra high strength) as that would give it 11,000 pounds at > breaking strength. BE CAREFUL here as the common grade 5/16" 1X7 only > has about 3,500 pounds breaking strength!!! One other concern is that > the galvanizing on the 7X19 is not as heavy as the 1X7 so you will have > rust occurring sooner. This is because the individual strands are so > much smaller on the 7X19 wire. > > Carl > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > > Brent or anyone else : ) > > > > Does the rigging on a 36 footer need to be 3/8"or is 5/16 (galvanized) > > strong enough? I found a source of galvanzed wire rope close to my > > house that recommended 7x19 over the 1x7 I thought I needed. It (7x19) > > sure is a LOT less stiff and would be easier to work with. Living > > in "Oil Country" there's lots of places that deal in wire rope and > > rigging. > > > > I'll do a site search, about end fittings but anyone willing to give > > their 2 cents worth on swaged vs poured vs spliced etc. please feel > > free to join in. I know poured is the strongest but how reliable are > > the homemade fittings in your book Brent? The reason I ask is that the > > details are kind of...lacking. .. it just says cut a tube into a cone > > and not much else?? Any additional info. for the technically challenged? > > > > I may also have found a source for Norseman/Sta Lok type fittings but > > for industrial use that may wind up being cheaper so I'll keep the > > group informed. > > > > Rowland > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18841|18824|2008-11-15 18:30:51|brentswain38|Re: Conduit...|The Long Way is a great read.The lack of any structural diffculties when compared to others making the same type of voyage shows clearly the difference between doing it in an industrially rigged metal boat and a yachty, trendy boat made of other materials. Peole seing the round the world racers of today are surprised by the "industrial" appearence of their rigging and construction. Thats what it takes in those lattitudes. Bernard could be still alive . I rememebr in Tahiti in 78 when we showed him the labeling on Canadian canned goods, showing all the ingredients . He said " That is a good law. We should all know what we are eating" as he sucked on his Gitane cigarettes. He died of lung cancer, and was fit enough to go on for decades at the time had he been more careful of what he put in himself. He would get pissed off if anyone suggested he quit smoking. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > In Moonflower Of Moab, we ran conduit in against the hull for propane & > electrical wire before we foamed. IF we had it to do over again, we'd > use 1" conduit & 90 degree ends. We found the 1" great for the propane/ > stove runs w/ 90 degree ends easy to pull the rubber hose through. The > electrical we did 3/4 & had 45 degree ends. MUCH harder to pull wire > thru & the ends were a b***h. ALSO we wished we'd done MORE conduit... > > Just thought I'd let you guys in on our "pillow talk" tis' morning - > Today our local ski resort opens & we're set to go slide around.... > Nevertheless, our boat building is always foremost on our minds. > I just finished reading "The Long Way" by Moitessier. > > > Cheers! > kate > moonflowerofmoab.com > | 18842|18824|2008-11-15 18:35:04|brentswain38|Re: more questions?|No way . Only 7x19 is flexible enough for halyard wire. Those wraparound fishermans splices are nowhere near the strength of the wire. Hook a chain comealong up to one, crank it up and and watch it unravel. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Would the 1X7 with the common "fishermans splice and its 3500 lbs. breaking strenth be flexable enoughforthe halyard wire? > carlvolkwein > > --- On Sat, 11/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: more questions? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 6:12 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > -With the strands on 7x19 being so much thinner it takes far less time > > for them to rust thru once they begin to rust. > > Brent > > > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > A properly spliced eye has 100% of the strength of the wire. You can't > > > get any stronger than that. The type of eye needed in the end of 7X19 > > > is different than what you would use on the 1X7. I used a fisherman's > > > splice on the 1X7 that I used for my rigging. You would probably need > > > to use a liverpool splice (very much more complicated) if you went with > > > 7X19. As for strength 5/16" would be just fine in 1X7 as long as it is > > > EHS rated (extra high strength) as that would give it 11,000 pounds at > > > breaking strength. BE CAREFUL here as the common grade 5/16" 1X7 only > > > has about 3,500 pounds breaking strength!!! One other concern is that > > > the galvanizing on the 7X19 is not as heavy as the 1X7 so you will have > > > rust occurring sooner. This is because the individual strands are so > > > much smaller on the 7X19 wire. > > > > > > Carl > > > > > > > > > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Brent or anyone else : ) > > > > > > > > Does the rigging on a 36 footer need to be 3/8"or is 5/16 (galvanized) > > > > strong enough? I found a source of galvanzed wire rope close to my > > > > house that recommended 7x19 over the 1x7 I thought I needed. It (7x19) > > > > sure is a LOT less stiff and would be easier to work with. Living > > > > in "Oil Country" there's lots of places that deal in wire rope and > > > > rigging. > > > > > > > > I'll do a site search, about end fittings but anyone willing to give > > > > their 2 cents worth on swaged vs poured vs spliced etc. please feel > > > > free to join in. I know poured is the strongest but how reliable are > > > > the homemade fittings in your book Brent? The reason I ask is that the > > > > details are kind of...lacking. .. it just says cut a tube into a cone > > > > and not much else?? Any additional info. for the technically > > challenged? > > > > > > > > I may also have found a source for Norseman/Sta Lok type fittings but > > > > for industrial use that may wind up being cheaper so I'll keep the > > > > group informed. > > > > > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18843|18824|2008-11-15 18:38:47|Mall family|Re: Conduit...|We have French friends who -- almost deliberately , it seems -- light up a gauloise between courses . and has anyone read Desperate Voyage ? ? jim On 11/15/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > The Long Way is a great read.The lack of any structural diffculties > when compared to others making the same type of voyage shows clearly > the difference between doing it in an industrially rigged metal boat > and a yachty, trendy boat made of other materials. Peole seing the > round the world racers of today are surprised by the "industrial" > appearence of their rigging and construction. Thats what it takes in > those lattitudes. > Bernard could be still alive . I rememebr in Tahiti in 78 when we > showed him the labeling on Canadian canned goods, showing all the > ingredients . He said " That is a good law. We should all know what we > are eating" as he sucked on his Gitane cigarettes. He died of lung > cancer, and was fit enough to go on for decades at the time had he > been more careful of what he put in himself. He would get pissed off > if anyone suggested he quit smoking. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Carl > Anderson wrote: > > > > In Moonflower Of Moab, we ran conduit in against the hull for propane & > > electrical wire before we foamed. IF we had it to do over again, we'd > > use 1" conduit & 90 degree ends. We found the 1" great for the > propane/ > > stove runs w/ 90 degree ends easy to pull the rubber hose through. The > > electrical we did 3/4 & had 45 degree ends. MUCH harder to pull wire > > thru & the ends were a b***h. ALSO we wished we'd done MORE conduit... > > > > Just thought I'd let you guys in on our "pillow talk" tis' morning - > > Today our local ski resort opens & we're set to go slide around.... > > Nevertheless, our boat building is always foremost on our minds. > > I just finished reading "The Long Way" by Moitessier. > > > > > > Cheers! > > kate > > moonflowerofmoab.com > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18844|18824|2008-11-15 21:02:22|Ben Okopnik|Re: Mall Offshore Family|On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 12:06:35PM -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > & where are you "off shore"? > > & yes, Bernard would not be so free, me thinks. > We've read all the Pardy's, Roths, Evans & Beth, now Bernard. What > other guys should we read? Some favorites of mine, outside of those: * Tristan Jones (great yarns, but not always... umm, strictly truthful) * Anything written by Reese Palley * "Sensible Cruising" by Don Casey and Lew Hackler -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18845|18824|2008-11-16 02:50:11|peter_d_wiley|Re: Conduit...|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mall family" wrote: > > We have French friends who -- almost deliberately , it seems -- light up a > gauloise between courses . > > and has anyone read Desperate Voyage ? ? Yeah. Good read. Another one is 'An Angel On Each Shoulder'. Forget the author, my library is 1000 km away from me ATM. I've got a lot of the sailing yarns, very instructive. People really should read Bill Tilman's books. If you haven't, you've missed some of the all-time classics. He took up sailing in his 50's to get to some of the world's remote places. I've been to some of those spots myself - in a 6500 tonne ship. As for Brent's comments re rigging in southern latitudes, agree 100%. I spent 11 years working on an icebreaker going between Hobart and the Antarctic continent. I'd take nothing except a steel hull with string rigging anywhere south of Tasmania. PDW| 18846|18824|2008-11-16 11:53:35|Martin Demers|Re: more questions?|Hi, to anyone with an answer, wich size of turnbuckle fits the best with 5/16 7x1 steel cable? Martin. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 5/16th is all you need. Finer strands make it easier to work with > ,initially , but once they show any rust they lose their strength very > quickly.I prefer high tensile 1x7 for that reason. Harder to work with > but lasts much longer.My book tells you how to tell the difference > between high tensile and the soft stuff but simply bending it tells > you what you have. The soft stuff bends like lead. Don't use it. The > high tensile has a good spring to it. We bought enough out of a > scrapyard to rig a 36 footer for $15. > For the poured ends you make up the cone and weld the loop over the > seam. Making the loop long makes it easier to work with once you put > the wire in, as it gives you more room. You push the wire end thru, > then bend the last half inch of each strand back on itself, 180 > degrees. Then you pull it back into the cone, wrap a wet rag around > the end and the wire where it leaves the fitting and pour molten zinc > in, and let it cool slightly , before going on to the next one. > Poured sockets are the strongest ever , far stronger than the > wire,and the only ends aproved for bridges and elevators. > Aluminium and copper ones are nowhere near the strength of the wire > unless you do a flemish eye before putting the sleeve over it. > Most industrial wire is now done with stainless sleeves. They match > the strength of the wire. I used sleeves for the top and poured > sockets for the bottom as the bottoms corrode more from water running > down and corroding the wire under the thimbles. > You can get that stiff wire around the thimbles by pre bending a 90 > degree bend where the thimble ends on both ends. Then when you wrap it > around the thimble the 90s touch and make it much easier to force the > thimble down tight. > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > Brent or anyone else : ) > > > > Does the rigging on a 36 footer need to be 3/8"or is 5/16 (galvanized) > > strong enough? I found a source of galvanzed wire rope close to my > > house that recommended 7x19 over the 1x7 I thought I needed. It (7x19) > > sure is a LOT less stiff and would be easier to work with. Living > > in "Oil Country" there's lots of places that deal in wire rope and > > rigging. > > > > I'll do a site search, about end fittings but anyone willing to give > > their 2 cents worth on swaged vs poured vs spliced etc. please feel > > free to join in. I know poured is the strongest but how reliable are > > the homemade fittings in your book Brent? The reason I ask is that the > > details are kind of...lacking... it just says cut a tube into a cone > > and not much else?? Any additional info. for the technically challenged? > > > > I may also have found a source for Norseman/Sta Lok type fittings but > > for industrial use that may wind up being cheaper so I'll keep the > > group informed. > > > > Rowland > > > | 18847|18824|2008-11-16 15:02:48|Mall family|Re: Mall Offshore Family|no, "welsh" tristan jones has always tended to rather annoy me -- anyone who deliberately takes a catamaran (anywhere )--no , down the danube ! ! and also forces his attention on boat-hitching females as he did , puts me off a little . but i`ll try your other authors, with pleasure . jim On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 1:59 AM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 12:06:35PM -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > > & where are you "off shore"? > > > > & yes, Bernard would not be so free, me thinks. > > We've read all the Pardy's, Roths, Evans & Beth, now Bernard. What > > other guys should we read? > > Some favorites of mine, outside of those: > > * Tristan Jones (great yarns, but not always... umm, strictly truthful) > * Anything written by Reese Palley > * "Sensible Cruising" by Don Casey and Lew Hackler > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET* > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18848|18824|2008-11-16 17:45:19|edward_stoneuk|Re: Mall Offshore Family Reading List|Hi All, "The Cruise of the Teddy" by Erling Tambs a three year cruise by a Norwegian and his bride in 1928 from Norway to New Zealand in a Colin Archer pilot cutter. Grafton Books 1989 ISBN 0-246-13510-7 Regards, Ted| 18849|18791|2008-11-16 17:54:16|edward_stoneuk|Re: twin wall "poly carbonate" for head liner|Many thanks to everyone on their input into the use of twinwall polycarbonate as lining material. We take your point that on its own it doesn't impress and we don't like the idea of vinyl glued to it. At the moment white painted 4mm (5/32") plywood with thin varnished lathes over the joins is our favourite. Regards, Ted| 18850|18791|2008-11-16 18:22:34|T & D Cain|Re: twin wall "poly carbonate" for head liner|There is a product available here called "Polyester White Headliner" and it is a thin (3) plywood with a factory white finish (on one side) which is quite hard. A coat or two of varnish on the plywood veneer side is a good idea. For joins, there is a white PVC extrusion which has a double groove for joining sheets on the flat. This PVC product comes in various sizes and forms for corners at 90 deg., for outside edge capping, as well as for flat joins of two sheets or pieces. It is inexpensive, looks good when fitted in the overhead or in 9mm ply work for fitout. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Monday, 17 November 2008 08:24 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: twin wall "poly carbonate" for head liner [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18851|18824|2008-11-16 19:34:26|Ben Okopnik|Re: Mall Offshore Family|On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 08:02:45PM +0000, Mall family wrote: > no, "welsh" tristan jones has always tended to rather annoy me -- anyone > who deliberately takes a catamaran (anywhere ) Heh. There are lots of people who do that, actually - every single day. All over the Pacific, in Brazil, etc., day in and day out, people deliberately take their multihulls out and (mostly) bring them back again. Been doing it for thousands of years, actually, so it's rather hard - at least for me - to sneer at that kind of a seafaring record. > --no , down the danube ! ! and > also forces his attention on boat-hitching females as he did , puts me off a > little . I don't recall that part, but it's been a while since I've read it. In much the same way that Jimmy Buffett has referred to his "Let's Get Drunk and Screw" song as a "love song from a different point of view", the Welsh have always valued good story-telling and have rarely let truth stand in the way of a good yarn - and Jones is a fine example of that. As long as you compensate properly ("True Virgins Make Dull Companions" might be apropos here), his stories are just fine. As the French say, however, "il ne faut pas disputer des goûts"; to each his own, and arguing about tastes is pointless. > but i`ll try your other authors, with pleasure . Enjoy! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18852|18791|2008-11-16 19:59:28|kingsknight4life|Re: twin wall "poly carbonate" for head liner|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Many thanks to everyone on their input into the use of twinwall > polycarbonate > as lining material. We take your point that on its own it doesn't > impress and we don't like the idea of vinyl glued to it. At the moment > white painted 4mm (5/32") plywood with thin varnished lathes over the > joins is our favourite. > > Regards, > Ted > Ted Sounds like a good choice. I think a thin, piece of plywood painted white and maybe some "fancy" hardwood as a batten makes a very striking and easy ot fabricate and remove overhead in a boat. This is what I'm considering but I am also impressed with the interiors with cedar strips used as headliners, too. I saw pics of a boat where they attached white plywood to the ceiling with velcro so it was easy to access. Probably more important on a non- metal boat since most fittings hsould be welded and there's no need to inspect backing plates etc. Although might come in hand for overhead wiring? The boat is called Ithaca and is on Dudley Dix's website,I think it is a Shearwater 45? Rowland| 18853|18824|2008-11-16 20:02:46|kingsknight4life|Re: more questions?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > Hi, to anyone with an answer, > > wich size of turnbuckle fits the best with 5/16 7x1 steel cable? > > Martin. > > >I've heard that you should go up a wire size on turnbuckles, so my guess is 3/8's. I guess logically you need a turnbuckle with the same or greater breaking strength than the wire? Don't take my word for it as I am just beginning to look into rigging. Anyone else know for sure? Rowland| 18854|18854|2008-11-16 23:21:27|Aaron|Dorado box|I was looking at some 6" air intake cowl type vents and was wondering about mounting them ona dorado box and how to paint the inside of the box? Aaron| 18857|18824|2008-11-17 14:31:58|Paul Wilson|Re: more questions?|I would go for ½ inch. It’s surprising how much weaker the turnbuckles are than the wire. In my opinion, the best turnbuckles have a mix of SS and bronze. Keep them lubed up and they will last forever. The SS body to SS thread ones end up with galled threads if you aren’t careful. The big ugly open bodied galvanized ones are big and ugly and much weaker for the same size as the others but will work fine if big enough and kept greased up. The threads on them are much coarser so it can be harder to adjust them. If buying new, they are much, much cheaper. Try to check the specs on any turnbuckle you use…. Here are two very good rigging references. Ben sent a link previously which also has a lot of the same information. As he mentioned, the military manuals are great! Many of them are free yet people are trying to sell them on the internet. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/nstm/ch613.pdf https://akocomm.us.army.mil/usapa/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_aa/pdf/fm5_125.pdf Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kingsknight4life Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 2:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: more questions? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > Hi, to anyone with an answer, > > wich size of turnbuckle fits the best with 5/16 7x1 steel cable? > > Martin. > > >I've heard that you should go up a wire size on turnbuckles, so my guess is 3/8's. I guess logically you need a turnbuckle with the same or greater breaking strength than the wire? Don't take my word for it as I am just beginning to look into rigging. Anyone else know for sure? Rowland No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1793 - Release Date: 11/16/2008 7:58 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18858|18854|2008-11-17 15:39:23|mauro gonzaga|Re: Dorado box|Dorade, my friend, not dorado. Dorade is considered to be the first modern yacht. Appeared in Europe at the Fastnet race, in 1931, skippered by the Stephens brothers, Rod and Olin. Apparently light and weak arrived second after Patience, five meters longer than Dorade. The Times wrote it was the most wanderful small yacht for ocean race ever built. She had the air vents on the box which was, after that, called Dorade. She won  Transatlantic  and Fastnet races convincing the Committees that small boats well skippered were much faster than their handicap was presuming. fair wind. Mauro --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Aaron wrote: From: Aaron Subject: [origamiboats] Dorado box To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 5:21 AM I was looking at some 6" air intake cowl type vents and was wondering about mounting them ona dorado box and how to paint the inside of the box? Aaron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18859|18854|2008-11-17 18:37:21|Aaron Williams|Re: Dorado box|Thank you --- On Mon, 11/17/08, mauro gonzaga wrote: From: mauro gonzaga Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dorado box To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 11:39 AM Dorade, my friend, not dorado. Dorade is considered to be the first modern yacht. Appeared in Europe at the Fastnet race, in 1931, skippered by the Stephens brothers, Rod and Olin. Apparently light and weak arrived second after Patience, five meters longer than Dorade. The Times wrote it was the most wanderful small yacht for ocean race ever built. She had the air vents on the box which was, after that, called Dorade. She won  Transatlantic  and Fastnet races convincing the Committees that small boats well skippered were much faster than their handicap was presuming. fair wind. Mauro --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Aaron wrote: From: Aaron Subject: [origamiboats] Dorado box To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 5:21 AM I was looking at some 6" air intake cowl type vents and was wondering about mounting them ona dorado box and how to paint the inside of the box? Aaron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18860|18824|2008-11-17 18:59:34|brentswain38|Re: more questions?|I prefer open bodied Galv turnbuckles. Galv are far less prone to metal fatigue than stainless, where metal fatigue failures are common. I have no interest in impressing any landlubbers with the shinnyness or daintyness of my turnbuckles. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I would go for ½ inch. It's surprising how much weaker the turnbuckles are > than the wire. In my opinion, the best turnbuckles have a mix of SS and > bronze. Keep them lubed up and they will last forever. The SS body to SS > thread ones end up with galled threads if you aren't careful. The big ugly > open bodied galvanized ones are big and ugly and much weaker for the same > size as the others but will work fine if big enough and kept greased up. > The threads on them are much coarser so it can be harder to adjust them. If > buying new, they are much, much cheaper. Try to check the specs on any > turnbuckle you use…. > > Here are two very good rigging references. Ben sent a link previously which > also has a lot of the same information. As he mentioned, the military > manuals are great! Many of them are free yet people are trying to sell them > on the internet. > > http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/nstm/ch613.pdf > > https://akocomm.us.army.mil/usapa/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_aa/pdf/fm5_125.pdf > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of kingsknight4life > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 2:03 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: more questions? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Martin Demers" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, to anyone with an answer, > > > > wich size of turnbuckle fits the best with 5/16 7x1 steel cable? > > > > Martin. > > > > > >I've heard that you should go up a wire size on turnbuckles, so my > guess is 3/8's. I guess logically you need a turnbuckle with the same > or greater breaking strength than the wire? Don't take my word for it > as I am just beginning to look into rigging. Anyone else know for sure? > Rowland > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1793 - Release Date: 11/16/2008 > 7:58 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18861|18854|2008-11-17 19:02:59|brentswain38|Re: Dorado box|All such boxes should be easily removeable Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > I was looking at some 6" air intake cowl type vents and was wondering > about mounting them ona dorado box and how to paint the inside of the > box? > Aaron > | 18862|18862|2008-11-17 19:11:25|brentswain38|Filtres|Recently stores have been taking polycarbonate water bottles off the shelf , banning them in some areas and putting out health warnings about the possible toxic effects of storing drinking water in polycarbonate. Some folks , worried about the effects of chlorine , run their water thru a charcoal filtre , to drip down into a clear plastic container made out of guess what? Polycarbonate. I wonder how many in line filtres are made of polycarbonate. I know that acrylic doesn't dissolve in Laquer thinner, it only crazes later . Polycarbonate definitely does. This should be a good test of what your filtres are made of. Brent| 18863|18854|2008-11-17 19:13:04|Aaron Williams|Re: Dorado box|Brent Would the whole box need to be removable or maybe just the top. If break 1" flanges then I could bolt the top plate down with the a 6" cowl vent attached. I was thinking to weld the rest of the box on. Aaron  --- On Mon, 11/17/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Dorado box To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 3:02 PM All such boxes should be easily removeable Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Aaron" wrote: > > I was looking at some 6" air intake cowl type vents and was wondering > about mounting them ona dorado box and how to paint the inside of the > box? > Aaron > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18864|18824|2008-11-17 19:15:22|brentswain38|Re: more questions?|Rowland I had a look at your boat and cleaned the scrap and grinder filings off. I didn't se a lot to do before sandblasting. The bow roller has too many braces across the top. Only one furthest foreward is needed. The rest have to come off. The outside plates are well supported by the hull , the centre one is totally unsupported, and they have bent before even when made of half inch plate. You need a staysail tang and a ring around the chimney --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, to anyone with an answer, > > > > wich size of turnbuckle fits the best with 5/16 7x1 steel cable? > > > > Martin. > > > > > >I've heard that you should go up a wire size on turnbuckles, so my > guess is 3/8's. I guess logically you need a turnbuckle with the same > or greater breaking strength than the wire? Don't take my word for it > as I am just beginning to look into rigging. Anyone else know for sure? > Rowland > | 18865|18865|2008-11-17 19:17:00|mkriley@fuse.net|Taku Marine Maple Bay B.C.|hi, Can anyone remark on the quality of this builder? I am wondering if I should travel to look at one of their boats? thanks mike| 18866|18824|2008-11-17 21:52:01|theboilerflue|Re: Conduit...|I used that black irrigation poly hose 1/2 inch and ran ones near to the stern, mid ship, head, bow and mast step. All seperate conduits and then to push wire through i took a length of galv. wire (there lot's of this on the farm as they use it for electic fences) and used as a needle to pull the wire through. the only propblem i had was put a sharp bend in the poly so i used garden hose for the sharp bends and just fit the poly in the garden hose and taped it up, the wire sometimes would get stuck at the garden hose join but a little jiggle got it going just fine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > In Moonflower Of Moab, we ran conduit in against the hull for propane & > electrical wire before we foamed. IF we had it to do over again, we'd > use 1" conduit & 90 degree ends. We found the 1" great for the propane/ > stove runs w/ 90 degree ends easy to pull the rubber hose through. The > electrical we did 3/4 & had 45 degree ends. MUCH harder to pull wire > thru & the ends were a b***h. ALSO we wished we'd done MORE conduit... > > Just thought I'd let you guys in on our "pillow talk" tis' morning - > Today our local ski resort opens & we're set to go slide around.... > Nevertheless, our boat building is always foremost on our minds. > I just finished reading "The Long Way" by Moitessier. > > > Cheers! > kate > moonflowerofmoab.com > | 18867|18867|2008-11-17 23:37:37|barnamos|Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and other sites for a while and see some folks almost ask this question but not quite. If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away again. I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or not, nor the merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a perfect cruising boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have different needs and aspirations - thank god! So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls of Colvin's. Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are at 48' and 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate for this type of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull weight impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important issue. Thanks in advance, Barney| 18868|18867|2008-11-18 02:15:13|peter_d_wiley|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his answer is going to be, though. You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of one of those hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. There's a lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% of it. By the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time or money, and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than otherwise. But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he does answer questions if asked sensibly. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" wrote: > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and other sites > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question but not quite. > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away again. > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or not, nor the > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a perfect cruising > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have different needs > and aspirations - thank god! > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls of Colvin's. > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are at 48' and > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate for this type > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull weight > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important issue. > > Thanks in advance, > > Barney > | 18869|18824|2008-11-18 02:51:03|Paul Wilson|Re: more questions?|>>>>>I prefer open bodied Galv turnbuckles. Galv are far less prone to metal fatigue than stainless, where metal fatigue failures are common. I have no interest in impressing any landlubbers with the shinnyness or daintyness of my turnbuckles. Brent Hah! Don’t call my turnbuckles dainty. Dainty isn’t allowed on my boat :). They were used when I got them and are probably 30 years old now but I see nothing wrong with them. I didn’t get them to impress anybody and there is nothing really dainty about them….a ½ inch SS turnbuckle is much stronger than a ½ inch galvanized one and the price was right. I think you would gladly have them if you knew what I paid for them :). Now on to my soapbox….. I have said it before, but I think SS gets an undeserved bad reputation. If SS was as bad as everyone says, masts would be falling down on cruising yachts every day, yet they aren’t. I can probably count the total rigging failures on one or two hands yet have probably come across many hundreds if not a thousand offshore boats over ten years in the South Pacific. In my opinion, the big problem with SS is that it will disguise poor maintenance, galvanized will quickly let you know that something is being neglected. Too many people think stainless means maintenance-less. Most of the rigging failures I have seen were problems with the forestay due to lack of maintenance (inspection/lube) and side loads (poor toggling) due to roller furling extrusions. In these same conditions with galvanized rigging, it would have failed as well…maybe sooner. I have seen many people sail off on a long passage without inspecting the wire under a roller furler, yet if any piece of rigging is going to fail, it will be that one. Is this kind of failure due to the fitting being SS? I don’t think so. It’s too easy for people to blame the fitting rather than themselves. I have had people laugh when I have taken apart and re-lubed the threads on my turnbuckles. They figure if it’s not broke don’t fix it. I don’t get it..…It only takes a few hours every couple of years yet these same people will blame the SS (crevice corrosion!) when it corrodes and pits in the threads. Would you blame the galvanized threads in a fitting if they rusted when you never re-lubed them? How long would a galvanized turnbuckle last if you did zero maintenance to it? Also, I don’t think my SS turnbuckles will ever fatigue. If they did, it would mean they were being bent (cycled) due to being improperly installed. The cycles in a straight pull would never do it. Slack rigging causing an improperly toggled turnbuckle to constantly flop back and forth might. The galvanized fitting might get away with it but it doesn’t make it right. Personally, I have never seen a failure in a SS fitting which hasn’t been caused by improper toggling causing side loading/bending on a fitting or poor maintenance. To conclude, I see nothing wrong with galvanized fittings. An improperly installed galvanized fitting is probably more forgiving than an improperly installed SS fitting, but I think SS is good and reliable as well, if it’s done right and the price is right. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18870|18854|2008-11-18 04:12:31|sae140|Re: Dorado box|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Dorade, my friend, not dorado. Dorade is considered to be the > first modern yacht ... She had the air vents on the box which > was, after that, called Dorade. Dorado of course being the name of a fish. Easy mistake to make. Aaron - Dorade boxes should ideally be removeable, so you could paint inside 'em that way - but if you decide to make them fixed items, then you might want to consider making them with thick removable acrylic or polycarb tops. That way you'll also benefit from getting a small amount of light below as well. Another alternative would be a Griffith's Hatch. Colin| 18871|18871|2008-11-18 06:45:31|James Pronk|23HP Diesel|Has anyone looked at these Diesels, and what do you think? Parts would be my main consern I think? Here is the link, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=170196172954&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123 What do you think? James.| 18872|18824|2008-11-18 09:54:47|Carl Anderson|Re: more questions?|Paul, From what I have found on the net the working load rating for a galvanized 1/2" turnbuckle is the same as the working load rating for a 316 SS 1/2" turnbuckle. No difference in the strength from what I can find out. Also the "pipe body" turnbuckles seem to have a lower working rating than the "open body" type. BTW I used 5/8" open body galvanized turnbuckles on my rigging.....kinda industrial I guess.... ;) Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Paul Wilson wrote: > > > >>>>>I prefer open bodied Galv turnbuckles. Galv are far less prone to > metal fatigue than stainless, where metal fatigue failures are > common. I have no interest in impressing any landlubbers with the > shinnyness or daintyness of my turnbuckles. > Brent > > Hah! Don’t call my turnbuckles dainty. Dainty isn’t allowed on my boat :). > They were used when I got them and are probably 30 years old now but I see > nothing wrong with them. I didn’t get them to impress anybody and there is > nothing really dainty about them….a ½ inch SS turnbuckle is much stronger > than a ½ inch galvanized one and the price was right. I think you would > gladly have them if you knew what I paid for them :). > | 18873|18824|2008-11-18 16:51:46|Paul Wilson|Re: more questions?|Hi Carl, This is kind of interesting....I am going back many years and have fried a few brain cells since I built the boat... I have these kind of turnbuckles....Navtec C600 on page 43 which is given as 15,200 pounds breaking strength according to the Navtecs site. http://www.oysterbayboatshop.com/pdf/1999CAT.PDF20Wire&part_id=22 There is no working load given. I would never have bought these since they are too expensive but they came with my used mast. Other 1/2 inch SS turnbuckles seem to be about 6600 kg or 14,500 pounds. All of this fits with wire of about 5/16 size of 12,500 pound breaking strength. Here are the galv turnbuckles (or similar) I remember looking at Steveston Marine...http://www.chicagohardware.com/catalog/04_07_Fturnbuckles.pdf This is the kind of turnbuckle I was referring to when I said "the big ugly ones":). I didn't trust these kind of turnbuckles based on the load rating yet I have seen and sailed boats rigged with them and never had a problem. To be fair, I think the 37 footer I sailed used the 5/8 inch turnbuckles like you have on your boat. Note there is no breaking strength given but a working load of only 2200 pounds for the 1/2 inch turnbuckle is not very much. A rigging company rule of thumb said working load should not exceed 40 per cent of breaking load. If we went best case and assume work load is 30 % of break load and go for the 5/8 inch turnbuckle (3500 pounds) we come up with a break load of 11600 pounds. If we went worst case and assume 1/2 inch turnbuckle at 40 % we come up with a breaking load of only 5500 pounds! Quite a range. So all this has proven to me is that I am making too many assumptions:). If we make another assumption that I am not full of s%$@, the 5/8 inch galv is weaker than the 1/2 SS. So what kind of turnbuckles were you comparing? Set me straight. It's kind of hard to check out the specs if they keep quoting differently! Cheers, Paul Paul, From what I have found on the net the working load rating for a galvanized 1/2" turnbuckle is the same as the working load rating for a 316 SS 1/2" turnbuckle. No difference in the strength from what I can find out. Also the "pipe body" turnbuckles seem to have a lower working rating than the "open body" type. BTW I used 5/8" open body galvanized turnbuckles on my rigging.....kinda industrial I guess.... ;) Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com| 18874|18824|2008-11-18 18:11:47|Carl Anderson|Re: more questions?|Paul, Some of the problem is that items custom made for the "marine" industry (such as Navtec) will give a breaking strength and leave it up to your judgement as to what load you want to use it at. However items made for the industrial rigging industry will have a rated load such as the 2200 pounds for the open turnbuckles in 1/2". In my work expeirience as a theatrical rigger the safety factor is 5 times or put another way you will only use an item up to 20% of its breaking strength and that is what the rated working load is: 1/5 of the breaking load for an item. When I looked up 1/2" turnbuckles at one vendor the galvanized & 316 SS had the same working load rating. For the strength of stainless look at suncor a mfg. that makes both forged & cast bodies with different ratings but they are WLL not breaking. http://www.suncorstainless.com/turnbuckle/S0107-EE.jpg Carl Paul Wilson wrote: > > > Hi Carl, > > This is kind of interesting....I am going back many years and have fried a > few brain cells since I built the boat... > > I have these kind of turnbuckles....Navtec C600 on page 43 which is given as > 15,200 pounds breaking strength according to the Navtecs site. > http://www.oysterbayboatshop.com/pdf/1999CAT.PDF20Wire&part_id=22 > There is > no working load given. I would never have bought these since they are too > expensive but they came with my used mast. Other 1/2 inch SS turnbuckles > seem to be about 6600 kg or 14,500 pounds. All of this fits with wire of > about 5/16 size of 12,500 pound breaking strength. > > Here are the galv turnbuckles (or similar) I remember looking at Steveston > Marine...http://www.chicagohardware.com/catalog/04_07_Fturnbuckles.pdf > > This > is the kind of turnbuckle I was referring to when I said "the big ugly > ones":). I didn't trust these kind of turnbuckles based on the load rating > yet I have seen and sailed boats rigged with them and never had a problem. > To be fair, I think the 37 footer I sailed used the 5/8 inch turnbuckles > like you have on your boat. Note there is no breaking strength given but a > working load of only 2200 pounds for the 1/2 inch turnbuckle is not very > much. A rigging company rule of thumb said working load should not exceed 40 > per cent of breaking load. If we went best case and assume work load is 30 > % of break load and go for the 5/8 inch turnbuckle (3500 pounds) we come up > with a break load of 11600 pounds. If we went worst case and assume 1/2 > inch turnbuckle at 40 % we come up with a breaking load of only 5500 > pounds! Quite a range. So all this has proven to me is that I am making > too many assumptions:). If we make another assumption that I am not full of > s%$@, the 5/8 inch galv is weaker than the 1/2 SS. > > So what kind of turnbuckles were you comparing? Set me straight. It's kind > of hard to check out the specs if they keep quoting differently! > > Cheers, Paul > > Paul, > > >From what I have found on the net the working load rating for a > galvanized 1/2" turnbuckle is the same as the working load rating for a > 316 SS 1/2" turnbuckle. No difference in the strength from what I can > find out. Also the "pipe body" turnbuckles seem to have a lower working > rating than the "open body" type. > > BTW I used 5/8" open body galvanized turnbuckles on my rigging.....kinda > industrial I guess.... ;) > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > | 18875|18824|2008-11-18 19:27:30|Paul Wilson|Re: more questions?|Thanks Carl, I wish there weren't so many "standards". My unstandard Westmarine catalog says WL is 40 percent of BL for the Hayn and Johnson turnbuckles that they sell. If I was rigging again, I think I would do as you and go for the 5/8 galv rather than the 1/2 galv turnbuckle. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 12:12 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: more questions? Paul, Some of the problem is that items custom made for the "marine" industry (such as Navtec) will give a breaking strength and leave it up to your judgement as to what load you want to use it at. However items made for the industrial rigging industry will have a rated load such as the 2200 pounds for the open turnbuckles in 1/2". In my work expeirience as a theatrical rigger the safety factor is 5 times or put another way you will only use an item up to 20% of its breaking strength and that is what the rated working load is: 1/5 of the breaking load for an item. When I looked up 1/2" turnbuckles at one vendor the galvanized & 316 SS had the same working load rating. For the strength of stainless look at suncor a mfg. that makes both forged & cast bodies with different ratings but they are WLL not breaking. http://www.suncorstainless.com/turnbuckle/S0107-EE.jpg Carl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18876|18854|2008-11-18 20:07:27|brentswain38|Re: Dorado box|It would be easier to make the whole box removeable as it may be hard to access all the corners.You could make the the box out of stainless, but the bottom may still need to be accessed with a grinder. > > Brent > Would the whole box need to be removable or maybe just the top. > If break 1" flanges then I could bolt the top plate down with the a 6" cowl vent attached. > I was thinking to weld the rest of the box on. > Aaron > > --- On Mon, 11/17/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Dorado box > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 3:02 PM > > > > > > > All such boxes should be easily removeable > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > > I was looking at some 6" air intake cowl type vents and was wondering > > about mounting them ona dorado box and how to paint the inside of the > > box? > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18877|18824|2008-11-18 20:07:52|mark hamill|Re: more questions?|My two cents: I purchased my galvanized turnbuckles from a rigging/wire supplier and they matched the wire strength. If you are concerned about appearance perhaps you could "cloak" them in PVC tube split down one side ( ID large enough to accomodate the turnbuckle) and painted with the newer type of paint meant for plastics--say a nice stainless color?? Or green for starboard and red port or wait is it green for.....:)| 18878|18867|2008-11-18 20:10:43|brentswain38|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|No problem doing any of those boats in origami. Just do a bit of experimenting with models. If there is an existing one near you, you can take the patterns off full sized with door skins and a glue gun. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" wrote: > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and other sites > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question but not quite. > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away again. > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or not, nor the > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a perfect cruising > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have different needs > and aspirations - thank god! > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls of Colvin's. > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are at 48' and > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate for this type > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull weight > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important issue. > > Thanks in advance, > > Barney > | 18879|18867|2008-11-18 20:13:50|brentswain38|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are 1930's wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and material, extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his answer is > going to be, though. > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of one of those > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. There's a > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% of it. By > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time or money, > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than otherwise. > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he does > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" wrote: > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and other sites > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question but not quite. > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away again. > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or not, nor the > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a perfect cruising > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have different needs > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls of Colvin's. > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are at 48' and > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate for this type > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull weight > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important issue. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Barney > > > | 18880|18824|2008-11-18 20:30:58|brentswain38|Re: more questions?|After Dick Thullier completed his circumnavigation in his 38 footer I saw the boat tied up in Victoria. I pointed to the crack in one of his clevis pins holding his rig up. He said "I know . I pulled one out the other day and it fell apart in my hand like broken glass, the whole rig needs replacing. After Frank Braithwaite sailed from BC to New Zealand and back,he said 'Everything I had that was so caled "Exotic Metal " like stainless, aluminium or bronze broke . I replaced them with mild steel and had no further problem." I worked on brake press , bending all kinds of metal daily , for many years. Most steels,if bent the wrong way, could be flattened out and bent back the other way, with no problem. Stainless broke every time, sometimes on the first bend. A friend said he knew a guy who had a well painted 35 year old galvanised rig. He took it to a rigger and asked if it should be replaced with stainless. The rigger took a new piece of stainless wire and bent it back and forth three times, before it broke. He then took a piece of the 35 year old galv wire and bent it back and forth 60 times without it breaking . He said "Does that answer your question." I have a few freebe stainless turnbuckles . I'd never trust them to hold my rig up. Paul , your budget and money supply is far greater than that most of us have to get off the treadmill with. > Brent > > > Hah! Don't call my turnbuckles dainty. Dainty isn't allowed on my boat :). > They were used when I got them and are probably 30 years old now but I see > nothing wrong with them. I didn't get them to impress anybody and there is > nothing really dainty about them….a ½ inch SS turnbuckle is much stronger > than a ½ inch galvanized one and the price was right. I think you would > gladly have them if you knew what I paid for them :). > > Now on to my soapbox….. > > I have said it before, but I think SS gets an undeserved bad reputation. If > SS was as bad as everyone says, masts would be falling down on cruising > yachts every day, yet they aren't. I can probably count the total rigging > failures on one or two hands yet have probably come across many hundreds if > not a thousand offshore boats over ten years in the South Pacific. In my > opinion, the big problem with SS is that it will disguise poor maintenance, > galvanized will quickly let you know that something is being neglected. Too > many people think stainless means maintenance-less. > > Most of the rigging failures I have seen were problems with the forestay due > to lack of maintenance (inspection/lube) and side loads (poor toggling) due > to roller furling extrusions. In these same conditions with galvanized > rigging, it would have failed as well…maybe sooner. I have seen many people > sail off on a long passage without inspecting the wire under a roller > furler, yet if any piece of rigging is going to fail, it will be that one. > Is this kind of failure due to the fitting being SS? I don't think so. > It's too easy for people to blame the fitting rather than themselves. > > I have had people laugh when I have taken apart and re-lubed the threads on > my turnbuckles. They figure if it's not broke don't fix it. I don't get > it..…It only takes a few hours every couple of years yet these same people > will blame the SS (crevice corrosion!) when it corrodes and pits in the > threads. Would you blame the galvanized threads in a fitting if they rusted > when you never re-lubed them? How long would a galvanized turnbuckle last > if you did zero maintenance to it? > > Also, I don't think my SS turnbuckles will ever fatigue. If they did, it > would mean they were being bent (cycled) due to being improperly installed. > The cycles in a straight pull would never do it. Slack rigging causing an > improperly toggled turnbuckle to constantly flop back and forth might. The > galvanized fitting might get away with it but it doesn't make it right. > Personally, I have never seen a failure in a SS fitting which hasn't been > caused by improper toggling causing side loading/bending on a fitting or > poor maintenance. > > To conclude, I see nothing wrong with galvanized fittings. An improperly > installed galvanized fitting is probably more forgiving than an improperly > installed SS fitting, but I think SS is good and reliable as well, if it's > done right and the price is right. > > Cheers, Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18881|18824|2008-11-18 20:42:53|brentswain38|Re: more questions?|The shank of the anchor , while resting against the roller has to rise vertically enough to tip back by itself. Anything that interferes with that, means you have to hang over the bow to get your anchor up. The side plates are supported by the hull and bulwarks. The centre plate is unsupported and has been known to bend , even when built of half inch plate. All that is needed is a piece of rod connecting it to one of the side plates. 3/8th plate is probably adequate for a 31 , but not for a 36. Evan has used 3/8th for the 36 and has left the centre plate totaly unsupported. I guess that explains why, in the two boats he has built for himself, he hasn't had enough confidence in his work to sail more than a few miles from home port. The best way to get a head start on rigging is to do one end and make the shrouds and stays a couple of feet longer than you need. Then, after the mast is up ,( with the help of cable clamps)you can take the shrouds down one at a time and have them swaged , or do poured sockets in place. That way there is no chance of screwups on the lengths. I painted all my rigging with epoxy tar, taped them with hockey tape, gave them another coat of epoxy tar, then snapped 3/8th ID black poly tubing over them. I feel I have a rig for life. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Rowland > I had a look at your boat and cleaned the scrap and grinder filings > off. I didn't se a lot to do before sandblasting. The bow roller has > too many braces across the top. Only one furthest foreward is needed. > The rest have to come off. The outside plates are well supported by > the hull , the centre one is totally unsupported, and they have bent > before even when made of half inch plate. > You need a staysail tang and a ring around the chimney > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, to anyone with an answer, > > > > > > wich size of turnbuckle fits the best with 5/16 7x1 steel cable? > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > >I've heard that you should go up a wire size on turnbuckles, so my > > guess is 3/8's. I guess logically you need a turnbuckle with the same > > or greater breaking strength than the wire? Don't take my word for it > > as I am just beginning to look into rigging. Anyone else know for sure? > > Rowland > > > | 18882|18882|2008-11-18 20:51:40|James Pronk|Raised Aft Deck|I was wondering about the draw backs and advantages of having an aft deck like Shair, The boat that Alex had for a short time, or Silas Crosby? Does Shair has the hole aft deck raised and Silas Crosby has just part of the deck raised? Would this be a good set-up for a family of 3 or 4? Does it add a lot of room down below and weight to the stern of the boat? We are just trying to make up are minds as to what are needs are and how small of a boat will meat those needs. Thank you, James.| 18883|18882|2008-11-18 21:05:24|Alex|Re: Raised Aft Deck|You are right James, Shair was fully raised, and Silas Crosby has a cabin with side decks aft. On Shair, the raised aft deck, which went straight across the hull from one side to the other (ie, no raised cabin) made for huge accommodation increases inside. The large aft cabin with its roomy bed and separate head would be a welcome addition for a family of 4 cruising, though a regular BS36 lay out would work for 4 as well. What the large aft cabin gives is more privacy, mostly, or it would be great for chartering where you want really private quarters. I loved to lay on the aft bed and look forward, it made the boat feel like a 40 footer. On Silas Crosby, the after cabin is smaller, though it does allow for a nicely protected cockpit. The passageway inside was on the starboard side of the hull, and it would be narrow for a large person but was fine for most people. On Shair you just walked to the aft cabin and stooped a bit to get in, it was all open (could be closed off). On Shair there was no cockpit, just seats bolted to the deck. I didn't take it deep ocean so I don't know if you'd feel overly exposed in this situation, but I felt ok sailing across the Georgia Straight (I'd have installed Lee-cloths/netting had I kept her). I didn't find that Shair behaved any differently in terms of weight aft, she was just as lively as Silas Crosby, and never hobby-horsed. I don't know how it would compare to a regular BS36, but it seemed normal to me (ie not squatting). For someone living aboard full time, that aft cabin on Shair was very cool. It's pretty much the same amount of steel as regular aft trunk cabin I think, it's just in a different shape, so weight should not be any different. Technically it was not just flush-decked aft, it was raised-flush-decked (some 6 or 8 inches or so). There is very good visibility from a raised aft deck, but of course you are also more exposed (on the other hand, you can go down below on a BS36 and hang out/steer from the inside steering station in snotty weather). Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I was wondering about the draw backs and advantages of having an aft > deck like Shair, The boat that Alex had for a short time, or Silas > Crosby? Does Shair has the hole aft deck raised and Silas Crosby has > just part of the deck raised? Would this be a good set-up for a > family of 3 or 4? Does it add a lot of room down below and weight to > the stern of the boat? > We are just trying to make up are minds as to what are needs are and > how small of a boat will meat those needs. > Thank you, > James. > | 18884|18882|2008-11-18 22:02:06|James Pronk|Re: Raised Aft Deck|Hey Alex, How do you like your new boat? Is it a BS31-1=30? Do you have photos posted? Have you been sailing it much? I love your web site it looks great, James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > You are right James, Shair was fully raised, and Silas Crosby has a > cabin with side decks aft. On Shair, the raised aft deck, which went > straight across the hull from one side to the other (ie, no raised > cabin) made for huge accommodation increases inside. The large aft > cabin with its roomy bed and separate head would be a welcome > addition for a family of 4 cruising, though a regular BS36 lay out > would work for 4 as well. What the large aft cabin gives is more > privacy, mostly, or it would be great for chartering where you want > really private quarters. I loved to lay on the aft bed and look > forward, it made the boat feel like a 40 footer. > > On Silas Crosby, the after cabin is smaller, though it does allow for > a nicely protected cockpit. The passageway inside was on the > starboard side of the hull, and it would be narrow for a large person > but was fine for most people. On Shair you just walked to the aft > cabin and stooped a bit to get in, it was all open (could be closed > off). On Shair there was no cockpit, just seats bolted to the deck. I > didn't take it deep ocean so I don't know if you'd feel overly > exposed in this situation, but I felt ok sailing across the Georgia > Straight (I'd have installed Lee-cloths/netting had I kept her). I > didn't find that Shair behaved any differently in terms of weight > aft, she was just as lively as Silas Crosby, and never hobby- horsed. > I don't know how it would compare to a regular BS36, but it seemed > normal to me (ie not squatting). > > For someone living aboard full time, that aft cabin on Shair was very > cool. It's pretty much the same amount of steel as regular aft trunk > cabin I think, it's just in a different shape, so weight should not > be any different. Technically it was not just flush-decked aft, it > was raised-flush-decked (some 6 or 8 inches or so). > > There is very good visibility from a raised aft deck, but of course > you are also more exposed (on the other hand, you can go down below > on a BS36 and hang out/steer from the inside steering station in > snotty weather). > > Alex > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > wrote: > > > > I was wondering about the draw backs and advantages of having an > aft > > deck like Shair, The boat that Alex had for a short time, or Silas > > Crosby? Does Shair has the hole aft deck raised and Silas Crosby > has > > just part of the deck raised? Would this be a good set-up for a > > family of 3 or 4? Does it add a lot of room down below and weight > to > > the stern of the boat? > > We are just trying to make up are minds as to what are needs are > and > > how small of a boat will meat those needs. > > Thank you, > > James. > > > | 18885|18867|2008-11-18 22:31:54|Barney|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|Thanks Brent, Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking here! So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a few hulls that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could likely get some hands on measurements. Thanks again, Barney On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are 1930's > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and material, > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his answer is > > going to be, though. > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of one of > those > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. There's > a > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% of it. > By > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time or > money, > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than otherwise. > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he does > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" wrote: > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and other > sites > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question but not > quite. > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away again. > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or not, nor > the > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a perfect > cruising > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have different > needs > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls of > Colvin's. > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are at 48' > and > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate for this > type > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull weight > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important issue. > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > | 18886|18824|2008-11-19 00:07:05|kingsknight4life|Re: more questions?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Rowland > I had a look at your boat and cleaned the scrap and grinder filings > off. I didn't se a lot to do before sandblasting. ' Thankyou Brent I think there's still a bit to do. Atleast as far as I can remember. Rowland| 18887|18824|2008-11-19 01:12:34|kingsknight4life|Re: more questions?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > -With the strands on 7x19 being so much thinner it takes far less time > for them to rust thru once they begin to rust. > Brent > Well I've been doing some investigating and 1x7 is hard to come by here in Alberta. EVERY place has 7x7 and 7x19 though. Also it sure pays to check around as the place, I first went to said the 7x19 is around $0.30/ft.(and I think 1x7 too) and other places are 60 cents to over $1.00/ft!! Seems only the utilty companies use the 1x7 stuff and they probably buy direct. Also elevators are now using sockets with wedges in them, not just poured. Can you use stainless fittings on galvanized wire? Suncor and Esmet have "stay lok type" fittings and I have been told "they should be" considerably cheaper than their marine variety counterparts.(We'll see) I'm kinda leaning towards poured sockts that I'll weld up myself, unless Carl will diviluge his secret splicing techniques in more detail. : ) Rowland| 18888|18867|2008-11-19 01:31:54|peter_d_wiley|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from my home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes origami hulls. The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that can't be reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done if you try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the underwater section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. The problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have is a hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst and limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine engineering R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there is never one technique that suits all circumstances. An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you compromise hull shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull *skin* together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from people here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing away any faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his after Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% of the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not in fact frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and then you STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like everywhere to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an example, or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have found it faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion and I'm LAZY. Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom does for the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot of steel hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. Anyway, that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you go to 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing floors to Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the keels attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. I've corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck off of East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of the keel shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another (MISTRESS QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia coast. Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the Great Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger than framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have frameless icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine vessel and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 years working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a big dent cut out. Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's Gazelle, as designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no engine) it generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched 38' Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. Approx 1 tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same interior volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, Tom's designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative mass materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of material. Mass doesn't lie. My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of Tom's designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set of study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for a lot of effort trying to convert one to the other without the designer's help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull that's neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You also won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you care about resale. Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you get from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set of study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler that I use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) designs without paying the designer his fees - please think again. I for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if it is a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it won't scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the hull shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel 50' plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can use smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller origami hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to be more tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld plates together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get pretty close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, you'll have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their curved shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate but then you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam welds are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the hull halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed hull over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre seam? I wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they never got to that bit. Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of all constraints. Pick one or the other and start. If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have numbers attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. PDW > Thanks Brent, > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking here! > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a few hulls > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could likely get > some hands on measurements. > > Thanks again, > > Barney > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are 1930's > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and material, > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his answer is > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of one of > > those > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. There's > > a > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% of it. > > By > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time or > > money, > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than otherwise. > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he does > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and other > > sites > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question but not > > quite. > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away again. > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or not, nor > > the > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a perfect > > cruising > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have different > > needs > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls of > > Colvin's. > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are at 48' > > and > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate for this > > type > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull weight > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important issue. > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18890|18824|2008-11-19 06:09:59|Paul Wilson|Re: more questions?|Paul , your budget and money supply is far greater than that most of us have to get off the treadmill with. > Brent Hey Brent, A little bit personal and a little bit misleading. Since you brought it up I will respond. I quit my job last January. I am fixing up a house with the idea of selling it for a profit when I am done. My money supply would be negative since I am spending more than I am making. I love it. I know all about the treadmill. I have had a good job on and off for the last ten years but while I was building and cruising for my first ten years, I lived from paycheck to paycheck. My first job when I got out of school paid $1400 a month yet in one year I managed to pay rent in Vancouver, feed myself and save $8000 so I could start construction on the boat. Just about everything I bought was used and then re-built. I don't think I have ever bought a new fitting in my life, so I know all about scrounging. Other than the last few years, I have always worked and sailed until I ran out of money. Other than now, I have quit a good job twice now for two year periods each time to travel, yet due to my lifestyle, I am far ahead of my friends who kept working. Eight of the last ten years I have made good (not great) money working in SE Asia six weeks on and six weeks off. On my six weeks off I have been able to live in Fiji and sail with little expense in the normal cruising grounds. I have had people call me lucky, saying "I wish I could do that". Luck has very little to do with it since I have made sacrifices and worked hard to get where I am. I always had a goal in mind and purposefully chose a profession that would get me work anywhere in the world. I am good enough at it that people have always wanted to hire me again after I quit my job. If I am lucky, it's because I was born in Canada, somewhat healthy, and had good parents. I don't think I have ever gone wild and splurged with the boat. I have saved and bought the boat a present every few years rather than spend money on insurance. If I have money in the bank, I think it's more to do with saving and not spending it than making it. I probably learned this from people like you and others like you I have met travelling. Thanks. I think if there is one message from this site, it's that the important thing is to get sailing. It makes sense to go Origami but honestly I don't think it matters what kind of boat you have as long as you are out there, have fun, and don't kill anyone else. If I ever disagree with you, (which is actually quite rare) it's more to offer an alternative (moderate?) view than anything else. I think sometimes we get too polarized and get too wrapped up in the "right" way to do things. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Hopefully this makes the website better. Smooth sailing, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18891|18824|2008-11-19 08:28:26|Martin Demers|Re: more questions?|Hi, !!! Where do you find some 1x7 at $0.30/ft, yesterday I went shopping here in Montreal in many industrial cable and chain suppliers and I found it at between $0.81/ft and $0.96/ ft. in the 5/16 size. Martin -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > -With the strands on 7x19 being so much thinner it takes far less time > > for them to rust thru once they begin to rust. > > Brent > > > Well I've been doing some investigating and 1x7 is hard to come by here > in Alberta. EVERY place has 7x7 and 7x19 though. Also it sure pays to > check around as the place, I first went to said the 7x19 is around > $0.30/ft.(and I think 1x7 too) and other places are 60 cents to over > $1.00/ft!! Seems only the utilty companies use the 1x7 stuff and they > probably buy direct. Also elevators are now using sockets with wedges > in them, not just poured. > Can you use stainless fittings on galvanized wire? Suncor and Esmet > have "stay lok type" fittings and I have been told "they should be" > considerably cheaper than their marine variety counterparts.(We'll see) > I'm kinda leaning towards poured sockts that I'll weld up myself, > unless Carl will diviluge his secret splicing techniques in more > detail. : ) > Rowland > | 18892|18824|2008-11-19 09:13:15|Martin Demers|Re: more questions? 1x7 found|for anyone who might be interested, after a few phone calls I found some 5/16 1x7 galvanized cable in Hamilton ON. at $0.50/ft from Sling chocker(hope I spell it right) it is a distributor for Wire rope industries inc. Martin - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > -With the strands on 7x19 being so much thinner it takes far less time > > for them to rust thru once they begin to rust. > > Brent > > > Well I've been doing some investigating and 1x7 is hard to come by here > in Alberta. EVERY place has 7x7 and 7x19 though. Also it sure pays to > check around as the place, I first went to said the 7x19 is around > $0.30/ft.(and I think 1x7 too) and other places are 60 cents to over > $1.00/ft!! Seems only the utilty companies use the 1x7 stuff and they > probably buy direct. Also elevators are now using sockets with wedges > in them, not just poured. > Can you use stainless fittings on galvanized wire? Suncor and Esmet > have "stay lok type" fittings and I have been told "they should be" > considerably cheaper than their marine variety counterparts.(We'll see) > I'm kinda leaning towards poured sockts that I'll weld up myself, > unless Carl will diviluge his secret splicing techniques in more > detail. : ) > Rowland > | 18893|18867|2008-11-19 09:21:52|Barney Treadway|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|Thanks for the detailed reply and please know I would NEVER rip off a design. I already have the study plans for a couple of Colvin's (boat porn is a good analogy as I admit to sneaking looks at them when the wife's not around!). My interest at this time is only to evaluate the best means to my ends. While I wouldn't dream of modifying Brent's or Tom's designs without working with them, as the one who "writes the checks" I reserve the right to determine which process will deliver the said design to the water in the most efficient manner. Were I in the market for a 36 footer, Brent's boat would be at the top of my list in front of the Gazelle due to a number of SUBJECTIVE reasons (layout options, integrated pilot house, ease of construction, etc). I also have enormous respect for Tom, Brent and folks like you who take time to respond in forums like these. Thanks again. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18894|18824|2008-11-19 10:34:17|theboilerflue|Re: more questions?|Rowland, North Island Ropes in courtenay sells 1x7 for .30 a foot as well last time i checked (a while ago) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > -With the strands on 7x19 being so much thinner it takes far less time > > for them to rust thru once they begin to rust. > > Brent > > > Well I've been doing some investigating and 1x7 is hard to come by here > in Alberta. EVERY place has 7x7 and 7x19 though. Also it sure pays to > check around as the place, I first went to said the 7x19 is around > $0.30/ft.(and I think 1x7 too) and other places are 60 cents to over > $1.00/ft!! Seems only the utilty companies use the 1x7 stuff and they > probably buy direct. Also elevators are now using sockets with wedges > in them, not just poured. > Can you use stainless fittings on galvanized wire? Suncor and Esmet > have "stay lok type" fittings and I have been told "they should be" > considerably cheaper than their marine variety counterparts.(We'll see) > I'm kinda leaning towards poured sockts that I'll weld up myself, > unless Carl will diviluge his secret splicing techniques in more > detail. : ) > Rowland > | 18895|18824|2008-11-19 10:38:13|theboilerflue|Re: more questions?|Paul where are you building your boat? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Paul , your budget and money supply is far greater than that most of > us have to get off the treadmill with. > > Brent > > > Hey Brent, > > A little bit personal and a little bit misleading. Since you brought it up > I will respond. > > I quit my job last January. I am fixing up a house with the idea of selling > it for a profit when I am done. My money supply would be negative since I > am spending more than I am making. I love it. > > I know all about the treadmill. I have had a good job on and off for the > last ten years but while I was building and cruising for my first ten years, > I lived from paycheck to paycheck. My first job when I got out of school > paid $1400 a month yet in one year I managed to pay rent in Vancouver, feed > myself and save $8000 so I could start construction on the boat. Just about > everything I bought was used and then re-built. I don't think I have ever > bought a new fitting in my life, so I know all about scrounging. Other than > the last few years, I have always worked and sailed until I ran out of > money. Other than now, I have quit a good job twice now for two year > periods each time to travel, yet due to my lifestyle, I am far ahead of my > friends who kept working. Eight of the last ten years I have made good (not > great) money working in SE Asia six weeks on and six weeks off. On my six > weeks off I have been able to live in Fiji and sail with little expense in > the normal cruising grounds. I have had people call me lucky, saying "I > wish I could do that". Luck has very little to do with it since I have > made sacrifices and worked hard to get where I am. I always had a goal in > mind and purposefully chose a profession that would get me work anywhere in > the world. I am good enough at it that people have always wanted to hire me > again after I quit my job. If I am lucky, it's because I was born in > Canada, somewhat healthy, and had good parents. I don't think I have ever > gone wild and splurged with the boat. I have saved and bought the boat a > present every few years rather than spend money on insurance. If I have > money in the bank, I think it's more to do with saving and not spending it > than making it. I probably learned this from people like you and others > like you I have met travelling. Thanks. > > I think if there is one message from this site, it's that the important > thing is to get sailing. It makes sense to go Origami but honestly I don't > think it matters what kind of boat you have as long as you are out there, > have fun, and don't kill anyone else. If I ever disagree with you, (which > is actually quite rare) it's more to offer an alternative (moderate?) view > than anything else. I think sometimes we get too polarized and get too > wrapped up in the "right" way to do things. There is more than one way to > skin a cat. Hopefully this makes the website better. > > Smooth sailing, Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18896|18824|2008-11-19 13:03:55|Paul Wilson|Re: more questions?|I starting building her in Vancouver 1986 and launched 1992. I now have her on the hard in New Plymouth, NZ. I am slowly giving her a well-deserved refit and plan on going sailing to the islands again after I get my permanent residency in a couple of years. Cheers, Paul Paul where are you building your boat? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18897|18867|2008-11-19 13:53:08|theboilerflue|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|Well for your information If I had maybe 3 more grand i could sprayfoam the boat and put it in the water by the end of the year. which makes my time working on the boat 362 days add that to the time that alex worked on the boat which i don't know (i think it sat around a lot). The final buget should be around 25,000 - 28,000 (and the steel cost: i believe almost 10,000 plus stainless scrap) which isn't bad and i don't think that would have been possible for me if it were any other boat being built. If i had built it i would have done more of the welding and not have paid brent to do most of the work (alex was filming right) so could have done it a little bit cheaper there as well. It's too bad i ran out of money, I knew the whole time it would be a gamble between funds and finishing the boat and i just came short so now i'll have to work a little and make more money - I'm not looking foward to it since i haven't had a job for a couple years now. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his after > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% of > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. | 18898|18854|2008-11-19 15:43:42|mauro gonzaga|Re: Dorado box|When I built my steel boat I made the Dorade box in stainless steel. The base of the box larger than the box itself. I cut the deck to be size of the box and weld it full penetration. Gorgeous. Mauro. --- On Wed, 11/19/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Dorado box To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 2:07 AM It would be easier to make the whole box removeable as it may be hard to access all the corners.You could make the the box out of stainless, but the bottom may still need to be accessed with a grinder. > > Brent > Would the whole box need to be removable or maybe just the top. > If break 1" flanges then I could bolt the top plate down with the a 6" cowl vent attached. > I was thinking to weld the rest of the box on. > Aaron > > --- On Mon, 11/17/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Dorado box > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 3:02 PM > > > > > > > All such boxes should be easily removeable > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > > I was looking at some 6" air intake cowl type vents and was wondering > > about mounting them ona dorado box and how to paint the inside of the > > box? > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18899|18824|2008-11-19 17:08:41|brentswain38|Re: more questions?|Be carefull of north Island Ropes. The last guy I know who had his rigging done there ended up with soft, low tensile wire with copper sleeves on galvanized wire. Some people mistake those nickle plated copper sleeves for stainless. They will corrode the wire out in no time. Rowland I drilled several holes in your boat, alongside the keels, bottom of the main sump and engine sump, and the bottom of the anchor well to let the rainwater out so it wouldn't rust out. The nosecone stainless was welded on without making the drain first. You can cut a hole in the stainless with a zipcut, weld around the hole, then cut the mild steel with a torch. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Rowland, North Island Ropes in courtenay sells 1x7 for .30 a foot as > well last time i checked (a while ago) > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > -With the strands on 7x19 being so much thinner it takes far less time > > > for them to rust thru once they begin to rust. > > > Brent > > > > > Well I've been doing some investigating and 1x7 is hard to come by here > > in Alberta. EVERY place has 7x7 and 7x19 though. Also it sure pays to > > check around as the place, I first went to said the 7x19 is around > > $0.30/ft.(and I think 1x7 too) and other places are 60 cents to over > > $1.00/ft!! Seems only the utilty companies use the 1x7 stuff and they > > probably buy direct. Also elevators are now using sockets with wedges > > in them, not just poured. > > Can you use stainless fittings on galvanized wire? Suncor and Esmet > > have "stay lok type" fittings and I have been told "they should be" > > considerably cheaper than their marine variety counterparts.(We'll see) > > I'm kinda leaning towards poured sockts that I'll weld up myself, > > unless Carl will diviluge his secret splicing techniques in more > > detail. : ) > > Rowland > > > | 18900|18867|2008-11-19 17:11:14|brentswain38|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|Buy the plans from Tom, to give Tom his due, and for the details and the rig, then take patterns off an existing hull for the origami plate shapes. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney Treadway wrote: > > Thanks for the detailed reply and please know I would NEVER rip off a > design. I already have the study plans for a couple of Colvin's (boat > porn is a good analogy as I admit to sneaking looks at them when the > wife's not around!). My interest at this time is only to evaluate the > best means to my ends. While I wouldn't dream of modifying Brent's or > Tom's designs without working with them, as the one who "writes the > checks" I reserve the right to determine which process will deliver the > said design to the water in the most efficient manner. > > Were I in the market for a 36 footer, Brent's boat would be at the top > of my list in front of the Gazelle due to a number of SUBJECTIVE reasons > (layout options, integrated pilot house, ease of construction, etc). > > I also have enormous respect for Tom, Brent and folks like you who take > time to respond in forums like these. > Thanks again. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18901|18867|2008-11-19 17:21:18|brentswain38|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|Yes my boats have frames , logitudinal ones ,like the hull deck joint, chines centreline, keel skeg , hull joint, tank top, andlongitudinals. Ignoring ther huge strength these add is a waste of time and money. My decks, being relatively flat, do need stiffeners which are far easier to put in working on a workbench ,unlike welding them in overhead, as Tom advises. I launched my 31 footer 30 days after the steel arrived. Try that with framed hulls starting from scratch working outside. More to come Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from my > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes origami hulls. > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that can't be > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done if you > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the underwater > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. The > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have is a > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst and > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine engineering > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there is never > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you compromise hull > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull *skin* > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from people > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing away any > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his after > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% of > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not in fact > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and then you > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like everywhere > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an example, > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have found it > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion and I'm > LAZY. > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom does for > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot of steel > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. Anyway, > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you go to > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing floors to > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the keels > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. I've > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck off of > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of the keel > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another (MISTRESS > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia coast. > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the Great > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger than > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have frameless > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine vessel > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 years > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a big dent > cut out. > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's Gazelle, as > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no engine) it > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched 38' > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. Approx 1 > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same interior > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, Tom's > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative mass > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of material. > Mass doesn't lie. > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of Tom's > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set of > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for a lot > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the designer's > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull that's > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You also > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you care > about resale. > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you get > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set of > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler that I > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think again. I > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if it is > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it won't > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the hull > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel 50' > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can use > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller origami > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to be more > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld plates > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get pretty > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, you'll > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their curved > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate but then > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam welds > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the hull > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed hull > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre seam? I > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they never got > to that bit. > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of all > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have numbers > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > PDW > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking here! > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a few hulls > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could likely get > > some hands on measurements. > > > > Thanks again, > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are 1930's > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and material, > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his answer is > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of one of > > > those > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. There's > > > a > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% of it. > > > By > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time or > > > money, > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than otherwise. > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he does > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and other > > > sites > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question but not > > > quite. > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away again. > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or not, nor > > > the > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a perfect > > > cruising > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have different > > > needs > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls of > > > Colvin's. > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are at 48' > > > and > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate for this > > > type > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull weight > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important issue. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18903|18824|2008-11-19 17:46:04|James Pronk|Re: more questions?|Hello Martin Have you started to build yet or are you still in the planing stages? I am in the scrounging stage right now and I am still trying to get more 316SS. I wanted to build the mooring bits but I am having a hard time finding 4" sch 40 ss pipe. I have some 3.5" id with 1/8th wall but I think this is to light. Would there be a way to put this over a heavy piece of mechanical tubing to give it strength and so it is not a rust problem --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > Hi, > > !!! Where do you find some 1x7 at $0.30/ft, yesterday I went shopping here in Montreal > in many industrial cable and chain suppliers and I found it at between $0.81/ft and $0.96/ > ft. in the 5/16 size. > > Martin > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > -With the strands on 7x19 being so much thinner it takes far less time > > > for them to rust thru once they begin to rust. > > > Brent > > > > > Well I've been doing some investigating and 1x7 is hard to come by here > > in Alberta. EVERY place has 7x7 and 7x19 though. Also it sure pays to > > check around as the place, I first went to said the 7x19 is around > > $0.30/ft.(and I think 1x7 too) and other places are 60 cents to over > > $1.00/ft!! Seems only the utilty companies use the 1x7 stuff and they > > probably buy direct. Also elevators are now using sockets with wedges > > in them, not just poured. > > Can you use stainless fittings on galvanized wire? Suncor and Esmet > > have "stay lok type" fittings and I have been told "they should be" > > considerably cheaper than their marine variety counterparts. (We'll see) > > I'm kinda leaning towards poured sockts that I'll weld up myself, > > unless Carl will diviluge his secret splicing techniques in more > > detail. : ) > > Rowland > > > | 18904|18867|2008-11-19 19:13:39|brentswain38|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|To suggest that reducing the amount of seam welding ,cutting and grinding by 80% doesn't save time is total bullshit. There is no rule that ends must be conic in origami building. Strongall boats have the chines going the full length of the hull, as the plate they use is too heavy for conic ends. My first origami boat was done that way ,before I discovered polyconic ends. If you prefer the exact shape of a traditional hard chine hull in origami then there is no law that says ytou can't pull it together origami style ,then modify the ends to your hearts desire , altho I don't see why you'd want to. None of Colvins Witch designs need transverse framing as the full length keels enable it to slide over any rocks without them. He doesn't do twin keelers. If he did, they would need a lot of transverse support for them, but only where the keels are . His transverse frames would be grossly inadequate. Single keels have the support of the centreline , structuraly,a huge full length angle iron.My single keelers need no transverse support as the keel and skeg, with the web connecting them take the load from the mast to the transom, make it temendously strong. Twin keels, being in the middle of the plate, need a lot more support. It takes minutes to weld up a stainless cleat and weld it down on a metal boat , a tiny frasction the cost and time of doing it on a non metal boat. This is the case with most other detailing, a fraction the time and expense of doing it on a non metal boat, saving a huge amount of time and cash. Thus the metalwork done is a much bigger percentage of the cost and time it takes to get a boat finished than with a non metal hull. The 20% figure is for non metal boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes my boats have frames , logitudinal ones ,like the hull deck joint, > chines centreline, keel skeg , hull joint, tank top, andlongitudinals. > Ignoring ther huge strength these add is a waste of time and money. > My decks, being relatively flat, do need stiffeners which are far > easier to put in working on a workbench ,unlike welding them in > overhead, as Tom advises. > I launched my 31 footer 30 days after the steel arrived. Try that > with framed hulls starting from scratch working outside. > More to come > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from my > > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes origami > hulls. > > > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that can't be > > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done if you > > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the underwater > > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. The > > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have is a > > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst and > > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine engineering > > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there is never > > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you compromise hull > > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull *skin* > > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from people > > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing away any > > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his after > > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% of > > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not in fact > > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and then you > > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like everywhere > > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an example, > > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have found it > > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion and I'm > > LAZY. > > > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom does for > > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot of steel > > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. Anyway, > > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you go to > > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing floors to > > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the keels > > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. I've > > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck off of > > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of the keel > > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another (MISTRESS > > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia coast. > > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the Great > > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger than > > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have frameless > > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine vessel > > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 years > > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a big dent > > cut out. > > > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's Gazelle, as > > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no engine) it > > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched 38' > > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. Approx 1 > > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same interior > > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, Tom's > > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative mass > > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of material. > > Mass doesn't lie. > > > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of Tom's > > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set of > > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for a lot > > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the designer's > > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull that's > > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You also > > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you care > > about resale. > > > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you get > > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set of > > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler that I > > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think again. I > > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if it is > > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it won't > > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the hull > > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel 50' > > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can use > > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller origami > > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to be more > > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld plates > > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get pretty > > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, you'll > > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their curved > > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate but then > > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam welds > > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the hull > > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed hull > > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre seam? I > > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they never got > > to that bit. > > > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of all > > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have numbers > > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > > > PDW > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking here! > > > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a few hulls > > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could > likely get > > > some hands on measurements. > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are 1930's > > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and > material, > > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his answer is > > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of one of > > > > those > > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. > There's > > > > a > > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% of it. > > > > By > > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time or > > > > money, > > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he does > > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and other > > > > sites > > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question but not > > > > quite. > > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or > not, nor > > > > the > > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a perfect > > > > cruising > > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have different > > > > needs > > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls of > > > > Colvin's. > > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are > at 48' > > > > and > > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate for this > > > > type > > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull > weight > > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18905|18902|2008-11-20 10:29:24|theboilerflue|Re: Evan Shaler|Where's your boat being built joe? nanaimo?| 18906|18902|2008-11-20 12:07:43|Joe Earsley|Re: Evan Shaler|Yes. -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of theboilerflue Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 6:29 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Evan Shaler Where's your boat being built joe? nanaimo? ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links| 18907|18867|2008-11-20 12:25:12|Barney|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|Thanks Brent, the 54' has a round bottom version that may lend itself to origami even better. I have a lot of research still to do on both methods it looks like! On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 00:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > To suggest that reducing the amount of seam welding ,cutting and > grinding by 80% doesn't save time is total bullshit. > There is no rule that ends must be conic in origami building. > Strongall boats have the chines going the full length of the hull, as > the plate they use is too heavy for conic ends. > My first origami boat was done that way ,before I discovered > polyconic ends. If you prefer the exact shape of a traditional hard > chine hull in origami then there is no law that says ytou can't pull > it together origami style ,then modify the ends to your hearts desire > , altho I don't see why you'd want to. > None of Colvins Witch designs need transverse framing as the full > length keels enable it to slide over any rocks without them. He > doesn't do twin keelers. If he did, they would need a lot of > transverse support for them, but only where the keels are . His > transverse frames would be grossly inadequate. Single keels have the > support of the centreline , structuraly,a huge full length angle > iron.My single keelers need no transverse support as the keel and > skeg, with the web connecting them take the load from the mast to the > transom, make it temendously strong. Twin keels, being in the > middle of the plate, need a lot more support. > It takes minutes to weld up a stainless cleat and weld it down on a > metal boat , a tiny frasction the cost and time of doing it on a non > metal boat. This is the case with most other detailing, a fraction the > time and expense of doing it on a non metal boat, saving a huge amount > of time and cash. Thus the metalwork done is a much bigger percentage > of the cost and time it takes to get a boat finished than with a non > metal hull. The 20% figure is for non metal boats. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Yes my boats have frames , logitudinal ones ,like the hull deck > joint, > > chines centreline, keel skeg , hull joint, tank top, > andlongitudinals. > > Ignoring ther huge strength these add is a waste of time and money. > > My decks, being relatively flat, do need stiffeners which are far > > easier to put in working on a workbench ,unlike welding them in > > overhead, as Tom advises. > > I launched my 31 footer 30 days after the steel arrived. Try that > > with framed hulls starting from scratch working outside. > > More to come > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from my > > > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > > > > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes > origami > > hulls. > > > > > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that can't > be > > > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > > > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done if > you > > > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the > underwater > > > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > > > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. The > > > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have > is a > > > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst > and > > > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine > engineering > > > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there is > never > > > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > > > > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you compromise > hull > > > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull > *skin* > > > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from > people > > > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing away > any > > > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his > after > > > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% > of > > > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > > > > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not in > fact > > > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > > > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > > > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and then > you > > > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like > everywhere > > > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an > example, > > > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > > > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have > found it > > > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion and > I'm > > > LAZY. > > > > > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom does > for > > > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot of > steel > > > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. Anyway, > > > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you go > to > > > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing floors > to > > > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the keels > > > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. > I've > > > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck off > of > > > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of the > keel > > > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another > (MISTRESS > > > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia > coast. > > > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the Great > > > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > > > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger > than > > > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have > frameless > > > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine > vessel > > > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 > years > > > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a big > dent > > > cut out. > > > > > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's Gazelle, > as > > > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no engine) > it > > > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched 38' > > > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. > Approx 1 > > > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same > interior > > > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, > Tom's > > > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > > > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative > mass > > > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of > material. > > > Mass doesn't lie. > > > > > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of > Tom's > > > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set of > > > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > > > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for a > lot > > > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the > designer's > > > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull > that's > > > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You also > > > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you > care > > > about resale. > > > > > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you get > > > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set of > > > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler > that I > > > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > > > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > > > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think again. > I > > > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if > it is > > > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > > > > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it > won't > > > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the hull > > > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel > 50' > > > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can > use > > > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller > origami > > > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to be > more > > > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld plates > > > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get > pretty > > > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, > you'll > > > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their > curved > > > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate but > then > > > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > > > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam > welds > > > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the hull > > > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed > hull > > > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre seam? > I > > > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they never > got > > > to that bit. > > > > > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of > all > > > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > > > > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > > > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have > numbers > > > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking > here! > > > > > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a few > hulls > > > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could > > likely get > > > > some hands on measurements. > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are > 1930's > > > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and > > material, > > > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his > answer is > > > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of one > of > > > > > those > > > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. > > There's > > > > > a > > > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% > of it. > > > > > By > > > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time > or > > > > > money, > > > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than > otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he > does > > > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and > other > > > > > sites > > > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question > but not > > > > > quite. > > > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or > > not, nor > > > > > the > > > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a > perfect > > > > > cruising > > > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have > different > > > > > needs > > > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls > of > > > > > Colvin's. > > > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are > > at 48' > > > > > and > > > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate > for this > > > > > type > > > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull > > weight > > > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18908|18902|2008-11-20 16:46:31|brentswain38|Re: Evan Shaler|You waited how long for him to finish a boat? Two years? The last boat I did took six weeks of my wages to do the shell and almost totally detail, including detailing and welding up the mast. I see less than a weeks work left before ballasting and painting. THANK YOU JOE. YOU HAVE MADE MY POINT ,EXACTLY. When Lyle built his 36 he bought a welder with an hour meter on. By the time the boat was done there was 350 hours on the meter, less than 12 weeks work. No more than another week with the welder turned off. That with a fraction the experience that Evan has. I was in the South Pacific at the time and when Lyle asked Evan to do it, he said he was basically told to fuck off and come back in a couple of years. Lets see , 6 weeks at $30 per hour vs 2 years at $25 per hour. Joe , you do the math. What's that? You can't do math? We kinda figured that out. You work for native bands? Hope you don't do their books . Otherwise you may find yourself an unwilling participant in our tradional game of "pin the tail on the honkey." You say you want to make changes that anyone with any cruising experience would simply refuse to do? Thank god I didn't end up working with you. I refuse to prostitute my designs ,as the designer always gets the blame , not thw guy who demanded the screw up. From now on I will call this kind of thinking " Joe Logic" For the last two years Joe told me he wanted me to do the work without ever mentioning Evan. For the last two years Joe has been telling Evan that he wanted him to do the work without ever mentioning me. I put of a trip south this winter because I wanted to stick around and help Joe out. Thanks Joe! Before Joe arrived on the, scene Evan and I shared the job well, for 25 years, altho Evan was more and more trying to push me out of the picture.I've been told of their derogatory comments made in their sunday morning bridge club gatherings. When I guy deals with his wife and his mistress in this way, old habits die hard and get carried over in to his other dealings with people. Such a guy's wife has good reason to get suspicious when she sees the guy behaving in this way toward others. So now we have a clear demonstration of what Joe's qualifications are on lecturing us about" Character". He appears to have non of his own. You can judge Character by how much time a person volenteers on this and other chatlines trying to help people solve their problems and keep their dreams affordable, asking nothing in return. How much have Evan and Joe contributed? You can judge Character by how much a person tries to monopolise knowledge and information , or by how readily he passes it on and seeks nothing in return. Evan always gets pissed off when I teach others how to do things for themselves , or how to avoid paying too much of their limited funds in wages to guys like him. When I first met Evan he was broke , in debt and homeless, living in the back of his elderly station wagon. I had more work than I wanted so I offered him half my job. Now he appears to want all of it. His first clients wanted me to do the work , but in order to give Evan a head start I refused and told them to get Evan to do it. I have often refused to do work and sent them to Evan over the last 25 years , enough for him to build two boats , buy a house , build a shop and cover his total cost of ,living for 25 years , asking nothing but the price of plans for the boats he did in return , which as Paul points out, is less than the cost of study plans from most designers. Is that a character reference? I bit my tongue, to avoid costing him work, when he insisted on doing screw ups I mentioned. I have been pointing out his screw ups to him in private for years , but he still stubbornly insisted on doing them. Only by posting he keel leading edge screw up here ,was I able to get him to start doing it properly. When the Joe debauckle arrived I suggested we compromise and share the work, and he basically told me to fuck off. So I lost interest in biting my tongue with regards to his way of doing things. Would you? Thanks for the phone number Joe. Friends have offered to give you a call and record any comments you make, then pass them on to me. Should be interesting. Then I can post the bullshit ones here for the education of others on your "Character" . Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > I am currently working with Evan Shaler to complete my hull that Evan > built for someone else about 18 years ago. I waited 2 years for Evan > to complete Carl and Kates boat "Moonflower of Moab" because I was > impressed with his attention to detail, his desire to listen to what I > want and give consructive feedback and his craftsmanship. Kate and > Carl both have said Evan's honesty and work ethic is beyond > comparison. The boat speaks for itself. So far I have been very > pleased with the work he has done on my hull and look forward to more > of the same. > > If you are considering hiring a boatbuilder it would be prudent to talk > to Evan and make up your own mind. I'm sure he can provide references > of past clients that can help you decide which way to go. > Regards, > Joe Earsley > 907-345-5915 > | 18909|18882|2008-11-20 16:50:32|brentswain38|Re: Raised Aft Deck|Raising it makes the stern look heavy , in other words, ugly as shit. Raising the crew higher increases the likelihood of falling overboard and doesn't add any useful space inside. It does add weight to the stern , which can drastically reduce windward performance. Weight in the ends puts the pitching frequency more in sync with bigger waves. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I was wondering about the draw backs and advantages of having an aft > deck like Shair, The boat that Alex had for a short time, or Silas > Crosby? Does Shair has the hole aft deck raised and Silas Crosby has > just part of the deck raised? Would this be a good set-up for a > family of 3 or 4? Does it add a lot of room down below and weight to > the stern of the boat? > We are just trying to make up are minds as to what are needs are and > how small of a boat will meat those needs. > Thank you, > James. > | 18910|18867|2008-11-20 16:53:10|brentswain38|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|Hayden A friend just took down his grown mast and went for a box section. If you are still going for a grown mast his fittings and turnbuckles are still available. I'll phone you and give you his number. Unfortunately he cut up the mast. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Well for your information If I had maybe 3 more grand i could > sprayfoam the boat and put it in the water by the end of the year. > which makes my time working on the boat 362 days add that to the time > that alex worked on the boat which i don't know (i think it sat around > a lot). The final buget should be around 25,000 - 28,000 (and the > steel cost: i believe almost 10,000 plus stainless scrap) which isn't > bad and i don't think that would have been possible for me if it were > any other boat being built. If i had built it i would have done more > of the welding and not have paid brent to do most of the work (alex > was filming right) so could have done it a little bit cheaper there as > well. It's too bad i ran out of money, I knew the whole time it would > be a gamble between funds and finishing the boat and i just came short > so now i'll have to work a little and make more money - I'm not > looking foward to it since i haven't had a job for a couple years now. > > > In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his after > > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% of > > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > | 18911|18824|2008-11-20 16:56:40|brentswain38|Re: more questions?|My uncle and my brother both got fired for "Good Jobs". It turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to them . They would have spent their entire life on that treadmill if they hadn't. Both were grateful a short time after, and ever since. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Paul , your budget and money supply is far greater than that most of > us have to get off the treadmill with. > > Brent > > > Hey Brent, > > A little bit personal and a little bit misleading. Since you brought it up > I will respond. > > I quit my job last January. I am fixing up a house with the idea of selling > it for a profit when I am done. My money supply would be negative since I > am spending more than I am making. I love it. > > I know all about the treadmill. I have had a good job on and off for the > last ten years but while I was building and cruising for my first ten years, > I lived from paycheck to paycheck. My first job when I got out of school > paid $1400 a month yet in one year I managed to pay rent in Vancouver, feed > myself and save $8000 so I could start construction on the boat. Just about > everything I bought was used and then re-built. I don't think I have ever > bought a new fitting in my life, so I know all about scrounging. Other than > the last few years, I have always worked and sailed until I ran out of > money. Other than now, I have quit a good job twice now for two year > periods each time to travel, yet due to my lifestyle, I am far ahead of my > friends who kept working. Eight of the last ten years I have made good (not > great) money working in SE Asia six weeks on and six weeks off. On my six > weeks off I have been able to live in Fiji and sail with little expense in > the normal cruising grounds. I have had people call me lucky, saying "I > wish I could do that". Luck has very little to do with it since I have > made sacrifices and worked hard to get where I am. I always had a goal in > mind and purposefully chose a profession that would get me work anywhere in > the world. I am good enough at it that people have always wanted to hire me > again after I quit my job. If I am lucky, it's because I was born in > Canada, somewhat healthy, and had good parents. I don't think I have ever > gone wild and splurged with the boat. I have saved and bought the boat a > present every few years rather than spend money on insurance. If I have > money in the bank, I think it's more to do with saving and not spending it > than making it. I probably learned this from people like you and others > like you I have met travelling. Thanks. > > I think if there is one message from this site, it's that the important > thing is to get sailing. It makes sense to go Origami but honestly I don't > think it matters what kind of boat you have as long as you are out there, > have fun, and don't kill anyone else. If I ever disagree with you, (which > is actually quite rare) it's more to offer an alternative (moderate?) view > than anything else. I think sometimes we get too polarized and get too > wrapped up in the "right" way to do things. There is more than one way to > skin a cat. Hopefully this makes the website better. > > Smooth sailing, Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18912|18867|2008-11-20 16:58:59|brentswain38|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|Making a model gives you a very clear idea of how it would work out in origami. Help you make aesthetic decisions in 3D too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney wrote: > > Thanks Brent, the 54' has a round bottom version that may lend itself to > origami even better. I have a lot of research still to do on both > methods it looks like! > > > > On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 00:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > To suggest that reducing the amount of seam welding ,cutting and > > grinding by 80% doesn't save time is total bullshit. > > There is no rule that ends must be conic in origami building. > > Strongall boats have the chines going the full length of the hull, as > > the plate they use is too heavy for conic ends. > > My first origami boat was done that way ,before I discovered > > polyconic ends. If you prefer the exact shape of a traditional hard > > chine hull in origami then there is no law that says ytou can't pull > > it together origami style ,then modify the ends to your hearts desire > > , altho I don't see why you'd want to. > > None of Colvins Witch designs need transverse framing as the full > > length keels enable it to slide over any rocks without them. He > > doesn't do twin keelers. If he did, they would need a lot of > > transverse support for them, but only where the keels are . His > > transverse frames would be grossly inadequate. Single keels have the > > support of the centreline , structuraly,a huge full length angle > > iron.My single keelers need no transverse support as the keel and > > skeg, with the web connecting them take the load from the mast to the > > transom, make it temendously strong. Twin keels, being in the > > middle of the plate, need a lot more support. > > It takes minutes to weld up a stainless cleat and weld it down on a > > metal boat , a tiny frasction the cost and time of doing it on a non > > metal boat. This is the case with most other detailing, a fraction the > > time and expense of doing it on a non metal boat, saving a huge amount > > of time and cash. Thus the metalwork done is a much bigger percentage > > of the cost and time it takes to get a boat finished than with a non > > metal hull. The 20% figure is for non metal boats. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes my boats have frames , logitudinal ones ,like the hull deck > > joint, > > > chines centreline, keel skeg , hull joint, tank top, > > andlongitudinals. > > > Ignoring ther huge strength these add is a waste of time and money. > > > My decks, being relatively flat, do need stiffeners which are far > > > easier to put in working on a workbench ,unlike welding them in > > > overhead, as Tom advises. > > > I launched my 31 footer 30 days after the steel arrived. Try that > > > with framed hulls starting from scratch working outside. > > > More to come > > > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from my > > > > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > > > > > > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes > > origami > > > hulls. > > > > > > > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that can't > > be > > > > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > > > > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done if > > you > > > > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the > > underwater > > > > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > > > > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. The > > > > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have > > is a > > > > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst > > and > > > > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine > > engineering > > > > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there is > > never > > > > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > > > > > > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you compromise > > hull > > > > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull > > *skin* > > > > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from > > people > > > > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing away > > any > > > > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his > > after > > > > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% > > of > > > > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > > > > > > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not in > > fact > > > > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > > > > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > > > > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and then > > you > > > > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like > > everywhere > > > > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an > > example, > > > > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > > > > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have > > found it > > > > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion and > > I'm > > > > LAZY. > > > > > > > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom does > > for > > > > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot of > > steel > > > > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. Anyway, > > > > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you go > > to > > > > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing floors > > to > > > > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the keels > > > > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. > > I've > > > > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck off > > of > > > > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of the > > keel > > > > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another > > (MISTRESS > > > > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia > > coast. > > > > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the Great > > > > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > > > > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger > > than > > > > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have > > frameless > > > > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine > > vessel > > > > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 > > years > > > > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a big > > dent > > > > cut out. > > > > > > > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's Gazelle, > > as > > > > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no engine) > > it > > > > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched 38' > > > > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. > > Approx 1 > > > > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same > > interior > > > > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, > > Tom's > > > > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > > > > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative > > mass > > > > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of > > material. > > > > Mass doesn't lie. > > > > > > > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of > > Tom's > > > > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set of > > > > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > > > > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for a > > lot > > > > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the > > designer's > > > > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull > > that's > > > > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You also > > > > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you > > care > > > > about resale. > > > > > > > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you get > > > > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set of > > > > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler > > that I > > > > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > > > > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > > > > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think again. > > I > > > > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if > > it is > > > > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > > > > > > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it > > won't > > > > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the hull > > > > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel > > 50' > > > > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can > > use > > > > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller > > origami > > > > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to be > > more > > > > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld plates > > > > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get > > pretty > > > > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, > > you'll > > > > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their > > curved > > > > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate but > > then > > > > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > > > > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam > > welds > > > > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the hull > > > > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed > > hull > > > > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre seam? > > I > > > > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they never > > got > > > > to that bit. > > > > > > > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of > > all > > > > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > > > > > > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > > > > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have > > numbers > > > > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking > > here! > > > > > > > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a few > > hulls > > > > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could > > > likely get > > > > > some hands on measurements. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are > > 1930's > > > > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and > > > material, > > > > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his > > answer is > > > > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of one > > of > > > > > > those > > > > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. > > > There's > > > > > > a > > > > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% > > of it. > > > > > > By > > > > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time > > or > > > > > > money, > > > > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than > > otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he > > does > > > > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and > > other > > > > > > sites > > > > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question > > but not > > > > > > quite. > > > > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or > > > not, nor > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a > > perfect > > > > > > cruising > > > > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have > > different > > > > > > needs > > > > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls > > of > > > > > > Colvin's. > > > > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are > > > at 48' > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate > > for this > > > > > > type > > > > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull > > > weight > > > > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important > > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18913|18882|2008-11-20 17:15:15|kingsknight4life|Re: Raised Aft Deck|Brent Surely it gives.some increase in useful space? Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > and doesn't add any useful space inside. I > | 18914|18914|2008-11-20 17:19:26|kingsknight4life|Building masts?|Hi Cedar birdsmouth or steel? Any thoughts, opinions and or rants? Rowland| 18915|18867|2008-11-20 17:19:32|brentswain38|Re: Greetings, bigger Colvin hull using origami|The steelwork on my 31 footer was 2/3rds the cost of getting her sailing and moving aboard. It took roughly 20 tabs , or 30 minutes cutting and welding for enough tabs to do my interior. It took me 30 days freom stel arrival to launch, another ten to detail her, another ten to paint , two days to rough the interior in and another week to rig and take her for her first sail. Alex barely touched his hull after I left. Are you suggesting that framed hulls finish themselves? Any hard chine hull can be done in origami, identical . Frames have nothing to do with the time it takes to do deck detail. Conic ends over chined ends are not a compromise. The opposite is true. Putting the deck stiffeners on before installing the deck is a huge advance in the building of decks, and can be done with any steel boat design, regardless of the hull building method. Anything else is a step backward. A 40 ft gazelle has less interior space than one of my 36 footers and the Witch has less than my 31 by a wide margin,and feel smaller inside than my 26 yet takes far longer to build, and you can't sit on a settee berth without getting the deck edge in the back of the head. Sounds like great engineering. Gazelles sail reasonably well. Tom did a great service to boaters by designing steel boats, long before other designers clued in. He helped a lot of cruisers get steel boats together, affordably. Too bad he was so locked in wooden boat building methods that he refused to advance steel boat building techniques in any significant way. A lot of progress could have been made in the many years he spent building, and designing . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes my boats have frames , logitudinal ones ,like the hull deck joint, > chines centreline, keel skeg , hull joint, tank top, andlongitudinals. > Ignoring ther huge strength these add is a waste of time and money. > My decks, being relatively flat, do need stiffeners which are far > easier to put in working on a workbench ,unlike welding them in > overhead, as Tom advises. > I launched my 31 footer 30 days after the steel arrived. Try that > with framed hulls starting from scratch working outside. > More to come > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from my > > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes origami > hulls. > > > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that can't be > > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done if you > > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the underwater > > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. The > > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have is a > > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst and > > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine engineering > > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there is never > > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you compromise hull > > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull *skin* > > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from people > > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing away any > > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his after > > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% of > > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not in fact > > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and then you > > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like everywhere > > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an example, > > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have found it > > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion and I'm > > LAZY. > > > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom does for > > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot of steel > > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. Anyway, > > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you go to > > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing floors to > > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the keels > > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. I've > > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck off of > > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of the keel > > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another (MISTRESS > > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia coast. > > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the Great > > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger than > > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have frameless > > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine vessel > > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 years > > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a big dent > > cut out. > > > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's Gazelle, as > > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no engine) it > > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched 38' > > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. Approx 1 > > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same interior > > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, Tom's > > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative mass > > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of material. > > Mass doesn't lie. > > > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of Tom's > > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set of > > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for a lot > > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the designer's > > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull that's > > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You also > > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you care > > about resale. > > > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you get > > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set of > > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler that I > > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think again. I > > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if it is > > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it won't > > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the hull > > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel 50' > > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can use > > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller origami > > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to be more > > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld plates > > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get pretty > > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, you'll > > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their curved > > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate but then > > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam welds > > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the hull > > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed hull > > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre seam? I > > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they never got > > to that bit. > > > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of all > > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have numbers > > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > > > PDW > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking here! > > > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a few hulls > > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could > likely get > > > some hands on measurements. > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are 1930's > > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and > material, > > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his answer is > > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of one of > > > > those > > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. > There's > > > > a > > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% of it. > > > > By > > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time or > > > > money, > > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he does > > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and other > > > > sites > > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question but not > > > > quite. > > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or > not, nor > > > > the > > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a perfect > > > > cruising > > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have different > > > > needs > > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls of > > > > Colvin's. > > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are > at 48' > > > > and > > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate for this > > > > type > > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull > weight > > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18916|18914|2008-11-20 17:29:37|brentswain38|Re: Building masts?|After hearing people saying that the price of steel is so high , that one may as well go for aluminium pipe. So yeaterday I checke dout th epi rice of a 20 ft length of aly pipe . Holy shit! over $2,000 for a 20 ft length! So much for that idea. Birdsmouth is an artsey fartsey gimmick, too flimsey for an offshore mast. Why would you go for so many glue lines a when a box section only has four, and lets you put the biggest dimension fore and aft where it is needed most. For offshore, a steel mast is still the most reliable and strongest mast you can get. It is still the most affordable , next to a grown mast . The weight difference compared to aluminium is not all that great. I just did one last summer . Using scarf joints makes the mast lighter and the job much quicker. So go buy a couple of 24 foot lengths of 6 inch OD tubing with an 11 gauge wall when you get here, and we can have one detailed in a couple of days. Does anyone know how much the price of steel has dropped in the last month or two? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi > Cedar birdsmouth or steel? > Any thoughts, opinions and or rants? > Rowland > | 18917|18914|2008-11-20 17:51:59|kingsknight4life|Re: Building masts?|Brent Before buying Gene's hull I priced out the plate/sheets to build a 40 ft. hull at $12K.Not primed or wheel abraded as I hear that is impossible to get here in AB. Rowland| 18918|18867|2008-11-20 19:15:42|Alex|Colvin hull abortions|Colvin hulls rank right up there with Bruce Roberts hulls for having the most hulks sitting incomplete in storage yards around the world. The building of them is not at all as simple as origami. Of course you should research this yourself, don't just take my word for it, go talk to people who have tried to build those hulls, and poke around boat yards where people are working on boats. I worked on a Colvin Witch hull with the aforementioned 3mm and 4mm plate and it was an abortion. The original builder couldn't put it together without distortion from all the non-contiguous hull plates being welded together, and there were so many "wows" in that hull that was just plain scary (though I imagine it floated, after a fashion). Even an amateur builder in origami will not generally end up with that distortion -- fairness is inherent in the origami process. The unreachable nooks and crannies created by the frames (they used angle-iron welded face-down so you could not even paint under it), as well as the wide box keel (it was so wide that you could stand in it with both legs and still had room to move) created so many rust zones/moisture traps that in time the original hull had rusted through with perforations which had been patched over with pieces of plate. To be fair to the design, it didn't help that the original owner tried to scrimp and just glued thin foam to the hull for insulation, which of course allowed moisture to form behind the air pockets between the hull plate and insulation. Nor did he properly prime and paint the inside of the hull, which only further invited trouble. Anyhow, that hull made my knees ache looking at her, and I'm glad that the owner wisely chose to abandon the project. You might still be able to go and inspect it, I believe, at the Independent Shipwrights storage yard in Coombs, BC. See if your knees start aching when looking at it too. It was such a waste of steel, money and effort, it's sad to see. Whenever possible, go and see a REAL example of the boats you are pondering buying or building, rather than being taken in by the sometimes pure conjecture cloaked as "fact" by self-styled experts, sometimes with stunningly silver-coated language which looks and sounds believable but in the end turns out to be as flimsy as Bush's claims about "Weapons of Mass Destruction". It's amazing what blarney people can spout with a few keystrokes! A fine example of this was when one so-called "expert" went to see my hull (the one Haidan is finishing) and delivered his report to the group, claiming that it had huge distortions as well as erosion. Go have a look at that hull at Haidan's place and decide for yourself if it doesn't have nice curves end to end and a hull skin nearly as smooth as a baby's ass, and with no filler at all. Also note that the "expert" wrote about three paragraphs about his expertise in the field of boatbuilding and welding before he delivered his damning report...as if he was worried that people wouldn't believe his statements, so he had to snow them with his lofty credentials. Whenever people spend so much time proclaiming their alleged expert background, you should raise a red flag and listen with caution. People who talk too much usually have very little of substance to say, more often than not. Anyone can say anything they like, but in the end the real proof can be within your reach simply buy taking a walk or drive and seeing the facts for youself on actual hulls, and speaking to the people who have real experience with those boats. Alex| 18919|18867|2008-11-20 19:50:33|Alex|Peter Wiley's comments|Peter, posting publicly while not in a good mood is not recommended. Calling the whole Origami process a "caper" ignores the successes people had with it and I think it's kind of mean-spirited, plus makes me wonder why you reached for that ordnance without considering what you are saying, as well as how you are saying it. Also, broadcasting untruths about the state of my hull (it was well more than simply tacked together during my tenure with it) really is uncalled for and I have to question what kind of person configures conjecture as fact, then ventures further broadcast it in this medium. It colours everything you say after that, it taints your subsequent statements deeply. Did you visit my hull and see if for yourself? Did you ask me to what degree it was completed before you constructed your statement? Nope. For the record, it was nearly completely detailed and all seams that counted were heavily welded. My reasons for passing the project to Haidan, at no profit to me, have no bearing on the worthiness of the origami techniques so don't even go there unless you want to look like a complete red-herring factory. I'm very tired of reading "My 20 years of marine engineering... My vast experience in the world of bla bla bla...my extensive background in etc etc", then finding so many inaccuracies in their statements, as well as blatant mis-truths and sometimes mean-spirited jibes at me or others personally. Where is this vitriol coming from? By the way, the concave curvature in the Witch's bow you mentioned did nothing but look like Colvin's attempt to copy a clipper ship bow onto a little boat, and worse, it removed bouyancy precisely from a place where it was needed for such a small steel vessel where weight in the ends requires fuller sections. It resulted in a hull which did not lift to waves but rather plowed/pile-drived through them like a submarine. "Pretty" does not always equal survival, though it looks nice on paper or at the dock I guess. And the floors Peter mentioned are only located as webs across the keel tops. There are four of them, and it makes the twin keel configuration not only possible, but very strong. Peter made it sound as if the whole hull is filled up again with framing, and this is simply not true (again, DO go take a walk inside one and have a look for yourself). Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from my > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes origami hulls. > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that can't be > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done if you > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the underwater > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. The > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have is a > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst and > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine engineering > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there is never > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you compromise hull > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull *skin* > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from people > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing away any > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his after > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% of > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not in fact > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and then you > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like everywhere > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an example, > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have found it > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion and I'm > LAZY. > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom does for > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot of steel > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. Anyway, > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you go to > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing floors to > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the keels > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. I've > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck off of > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of the keel > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another (MISTRESS > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia coast. > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the Great > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger than > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have frameless > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine vessel > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 years > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a big dent > cut out. > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's Gazelle, as > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no engine) it > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched 38' > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. Approx 1 > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same interior > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, Tom's > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative mass > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of material. > Mass doesn't lie. > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of Tom's > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set of > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for a lot > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the designer's > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull that's > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You also > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you care > about resale. > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you get > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set of > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler that I > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think again. I > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if it is > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it won't > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the hull > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel 50' > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can use > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller origami > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to be more > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld plates > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get pretty > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, you'll > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their curved > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate but then > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam welds > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the hull > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed hull > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre seam? I > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they never got > to that bit. > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of all > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have numbers > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > PDW > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking here! > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a few hulls > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could likely get > > some hands on measurements. > > > > Thanks again, > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are 1930's > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and material, > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his answer is > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of one of > > > those > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. There's > > > a > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% of it. > > > By > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time or > > > money, > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than otherwise. > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he does > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and other > > > sites > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question but not > > > quite. > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away again. > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or not, nor > > > the > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a perfect > > > cruising > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have different > > > needs > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls of > > > Colvin's. > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are at 48' > > > and > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate for this > > > type > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull weight > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important issue. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18920|18914|2008-11-20 21:19:48|Aaron Williams|Re: Building masts?|Brent did you forget to tell them that you wanted a hole in the 6" round stock? :-) Wait 2 more weeks aluminum on the futures market is down to 0.82 per pound. The high was almost $1.55 in July. But  much more expensive than steel. I wonder if Detroit dosnt get there act together if the price of steel will go lower than its been in twenty years? Aaron --- On Thu, 11/20/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building masts? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 1:29 PM After hearing people saying that the price of steel is so high , that one may as well go for aluminium pipe. So yeaterday I checke dout th epi rice of a 20 ft length of aly pipe . Holy shit! over $2,000 for a 20 ft length! So much for that idea. Birdsmouth is an artsey fartsey gimmick, too flimsey for an offshore mast. Why would you go for so many glue lines a when a box section only has four, and lets you put the biggest dimension fore and aft where it is needed most. For offshore, a steel mast is still the most reliable and strongest mast you can get. It is still the most affordable , next to a grown mast . The weight difference compared to aluminium is not all that great. I just did one last summer . Using scarf joints makes the mast lighter and the job much quicker. So go buy a couple of 24 foot lengths of 6 inch OD tubing with an 11 gauge wall when you get here, and we can have one detailed in a couple of days. Does anyone know how much the price of steel has dropped in the last month or two? Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi > Cedar birdsmouth or steel? > Any thoughts, opinions and or rants? > Rowland > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18921|18921|2008-11-20 23:49:55|dbourg2002|crazy rustproofing idea|Hello, I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" and do not have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this crazy idea when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply well to steel boats. In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I sprayed on with a shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer nozzle. This stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail.) It has some advantages as I see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it self-heals should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra protection inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be inaccessable. It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such but I think the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it would help as protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with tar epoxy. I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy idea. Don B. (Prairie gringo)| 18923|18921|2008-11-21 07:28:15|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|Do you have a trade name, supplier ? Another, important consideration, is whether it is fire-resistant and whether it´s toxic when on fire (some foam create cyanide etc if in a fire !) AFAIK, foam is a major cost in a large hull, several thousand dollars for a 16 m hull, for example. Also, any examples of marine use would be an important point ... I believe some std foams may not have sufficiently good adherence ... and if this is the case, the hull may rust under the foam, that would be a disaster. OTOH ... a cheap foam would be very welcome. More details would be appreciated. Hannu dbourg2002 wrote: > > Hello, > > I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" and do not > have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this crazy idea > when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply well to steel > boats. > > In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I sprayed on with a > shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer nozzle. This > stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail.) It has some advantages as I > see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it self-heals > should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. > > I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra protection > inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be inaccessable. > It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such but I think > the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it would help as > protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with tar epoxy. > > I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy idea. > > Don B. > (Prairie gringo) > > __._,_ | 18924|18921|2008-11-21 08:01:37|Martin Demers|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|Talking of foam, wich ones have a good adherence and wich ones dont? anyone with an answer? Martin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > > Do you have a trade name, supplier ? > > Another, important consideration, is whether it is fire-resistant and > whether it´s toxic when on fire (some foam create cyanide etc if in a > fire !) > AFAIK, foam is a major cost in a large hull, several thousand dollars > for a 16 m hull, for example. > Also, any examples of marine use would be an important point ... > > I believe some std foams may not have sufficiently good adherence ... > and if this is the case, the hull may rust under the foam, that would be > a disaster. > OTOH ... a cheap foam would be very welcome. > More details would be appreciated. > > Hannu > > > dbourg2002 wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" and do not > > have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this crazy idea > > when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply well to steel > > boats. > > > > In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I sprayed on with a > > shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer nozzle. This > > stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail.) It has some advantages as I > > see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it self-heals > > should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. > > > > I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra protection > > inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be inaccessable. > > It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such but I think > > the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it would help as > > protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with tar epoxy. > > > > I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy idea. > > > > Don B. > > (Prairie gringo) > > > > __._,_ > | 18925|18914|2008-11-21 09:16:29|Carl Anderson|Re: Building masts?|$2,000 is the price that I got here in the states. The fellow that built my mast has some source of aluminum in BC that is dirt cheap! The materials cost on my mast for the aluminum (excluding sail track & boom) came in at $1,800. That was for 50' of 6" sch 40 pipe plus the stuff for the spreaders & plate for the base, top and all the fittings. Holy shit! you need to shop around looks like! Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com brentswain38 wrote: > > > After hearing people saying that the price of steel is so high , that > one may as well go for aluminium pipe. So yeaterday I checke dout th > epi rice of a 20 ft length of aly pipe . Holy shit! over $2,000 for a > 20 ft length! So much for that idea. > Birdsmouth is an artsey fartsey gimmick, too flimsey for an offshore > mast. Why would you go for so many glue lines a when a box section > only has four, and lets you put the biggest dimension fore and aft > where it is needed most. > For offshore, a steel mast is still the most reliable and strongest > mast you can get. It is still the most affordable , next to a grown > mast . The weight difference compared to aluminium is not all that great. > I just did one last summer . Using scarf joints makes the mast > lighter and the job much quicker. > So go buy a couple of 24 foot lengths of 6 inch OD tubing with an 11 > gauge wall when you get here, and we can have one detailed in a couple > of days. > Does anyone know how much the price of steel has dropped in the last > month or two? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > Hi > > Cedar birdsmouth or steel? > > Any thoughts, opinions and or rants? > > Rowland > > > > | 18926|18914|2008-11-21 10:18:26|Tom Mann|Re: Building masts?|Yep price of aluminum is still pretty high. Last week I got 4 sheets of treadbright for an aluminum catle trailer, price was $1475 for 488 Lbs. Price of steel is comming down but its slow doing it. Tom On 11/21/08, Carl Anderson wrote: > > $2,000 is the price that I got here in the states. > The fellow that built my mast has some source of aluminum in BC that is > dirt cheap! > The materials cost on my mast for the aluminum (excluding sail track & > boom) came in at $1,800. That was for 50' of 6" sch 40 pipe plus the > stuff for the spreaders & plate for the base, top and all the fittings. > Holy shit! you need to shop around looks like! > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > After hearing people saying that the price of steel is so high , that > > one may as well go for aluminium pipe. So yeaterday I checke dout th > > epi rice of a 20 ft length of aly pipe . Holy shit! over $2,000 for a > > 20 ft length! So much for that idea. > > Birdsmouth is an artsey fartsey gimmick, too flimsey for an offshore > > mast. Why would you go for so many glue lines a when a box section > > only has four, and lets you put the biggest dimension fore and aft > > where it is needed most. > > For offshore, a steel mast is still the most reliable and strongest > > mast you can get. It is still the most affordable , next to a grown > > mast . The weight difference compared to aluminium is not all that great. > > I just did one last summer . Using scarf joints makes the mast > > lighter and the job much quicker. > > So go buy a couple of 24 foot lengths of 6 inch OD tubing with an 11 > > gauge wall when you get here, and we can have one detailed in a couple > > of days. > > Does anyone know how much the price of steel has dropped in the last > > month or two? > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >, > "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > Cedar birdsmouth or steel? > > > Any thoughts, opinions and or rants? > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18927|18927|2008-11-21 10:49:44|Tom Mann|Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|Hello All Thought I would give a report of how it is doing. The boat has been closed up for weeks, empty shell with windows and hatches on, Its foggy and wet outside, outside of boat is wet with water dripping off and the inside is dry as a bone. Rubed my hand under decks and sides and she feels dry no condinsation. So my report is it does work at keeping her dry. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18928|18921|2008-11-21 13:06:46|Bruce|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|What is the name of this product and where do you buy it? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > Hello, > > I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" and do not > have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this crazy idea > when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply well to steel > boats. > > In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I sprayed on with a > shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer nozzle. This > stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail.) It has some advantages as I > see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it self-heals > should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. > > I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra protection > inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be inaccessable. > It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such but I think > the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it would help as > protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with tar epoxy. > > I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy idea. > > Don B. > (Prairie gringo) > | 18929|18927|2008-11-21 19:47:30|kingsknight4life|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: >Tom Thats great news! I can't remember but how did you apply the ceramic beads, did they come premixed into an existing coating or did you mix the beads into the coating you were using to paint the inside of your hull? If you didn't mix them into, coal tar, for example, what was the painting schedule? Eg. zinc primer, coal taar expoxy, ceramic paint etc. Thanks Rowland| 18930|18914|2008-11-21 19:48:01|kingsknight4life|Re: Building masts?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > After hearing people saying that the price of steel is so high , that > one may as well go for aluminium pipe. So yeaterday I checke dout th > epi rice of a 20 ft length of aly pipe . Holy shit! over $2,000 for a > 20 ft length! So much for that idea. > Brent, have you priced out the steel lately? I was wondering what sail track goes for, last timeI chcked was on the WEst marine website and it was redonkulously high! Rowland| 18931|18914|2008-11-21 19:48:05|kingsknight4life|Re: Building masts?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Yep price of aluminum is still pretty high. Last week I got 4 sheets of > treadbright for an aluminum catle trailer, price was $1475 for 488 Lbs. > Price of steel is comming down but its slow doing it. > Tom >Funny how prices skyrocket when there's a "chance" of increased demand or perceived shortage but come down slowly? lol Oil prices are probably the worst for this, eg. offshore oil platforms MIGHT be affected by huricanes in the gulf so prices at thte pump jump 10 cents/litre but when they survive storms unscathed or the storms by pass the platforms completely the decrease takes months? HMMM! rowland| 18932|18932|2008-11-21 19:49:08|kingsknight4life|Attaching firring strips|I was thinking about firring strips when someone mentioned having to weld lots of tabs inside the hull to screw them to. Well way back, I did a test and glued and old rusty piece of metal (portlight cut out) that had sat on the ground, rusty and dirty for months, to a piece of wood (fir or hemlock) let it sit for 2 days and then tried to pull it apart. Well, the wood broke before the bond let go, I think this was using bulldog grip but I'd have to check. I thought it was a success and could go ahead and glue my firring strips in place, relying on the glue and the foam to keep them from moving. However, I vaguely remember someone telling me that gluing them wouldn't work becuase the wood and metal will expand and contractat different rates. I think the post was on the MBS forum and the reasoning was that the wood would pull free?? does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this matter? Rowland| 18933|18927|2008-11-21 21:25:05|Tom Mann|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|Hello Rowland I just mixed it 1 to 4 ratio with macropoxy 646 from sherwin williams thinned about 30%. on the inside all I used was the 646 on the outside there is a coat of zink primer first. I just did one coat streight epoxy and 2 coats with the beads mixed in Tom On 11/21/08, kingsknight4life wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > >Tom > Thats great news! I can't remember but how did you apply the ceramic > beads, did they come premixed into an existing coating or did you mix > the beads into the coating you were using to paint the inside of your > hull? If you didn't mix them into, coal tar, for example, what was the > painting schedule? Eg. zinc primer, coal taar expoxy, ceramic paint etc. > Thanks Rowland > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18934|18932|2008-11-21 21:35:49|Wesley Cox|Re: Attaching firring strips|No specific experience here, but I would think this to be likely. Wood and steel have very different rates of expansion. ----- Original Message ----- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 6:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Attaching firring strips I was thinking about firring strips when someone mentioned having to weld lots of tabs inside the hull to screw them to. Well way back, I did a test and glued and old rusty piece of metal (portlight cut out) that had sat on the ground, rusty and dirty for months, to a piece of wood (fir or hemlock) let it sit for 2 days and then tried to pull it apart. Well, the wood broke before the bond let go, I think this was using bulldog grip but I'd have to check. I thought it was a success and could go ahead and glue my firring strips in place, relying on the glue and the foam to keep them from moving. However, I vaguely remember someone telling me that gluing them wouldn't work becuase the wood and metal will expand and contractat different rates. I think the post was on the MBS forum and the reasoning was that the wood would pull free?? does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this matter? Rowland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1804 - Release Date: 11/21/2008 6:24 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18935|18927|2008-11-22 15:31:23|theboilerflue|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|I mixed it into the wasser coal tar (1 quart/gallon I believe) and painted it on in the morning following the mio-zinc (inside only). I tried spraying the stuff and and the only nozzle i could get it out of was a 524 (5 inch fan, .024 nozzle) but even that got clogged often enough. My sprayer just couldn't keep up with the 524 nozzle you need a pretty big one for continuous pressure with a hole that big. So i rolled the rest. I'm still going to foam so i wasn't too worried about even coverage. The kit cost me something close 140 or 160 with shipping for the twelve gallon kit it just comes in a box about a cubic foot with a bag full of really fine clay powder, the stuff is really slippery like cornstarch. For the price it seemed like a good idea i'm glad to hear it's working i had my doughts. Haidan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > >Tom > Thats great news! I can't remember but how did you apply the ceramic > beads, did they come premixed into an existing coating or did you mix > the beads into the coating you were using to paint the inside of your > hull? If you didn't mix them into, coal tar, for example, what was the > painting schedule? Eg. zinc primer, coal taar expoxy, ceramic paint etc. > Thanks Rowland > | 18936|18932|2008-11-22 15:31:31|Gordon Schnell|Re: Attaching firring strips|Rowland When I put the firring strips in my 40', I drilled each longitudinal frame (angle iron) where they crossed and put in a single screw. If the rate of expansion is a factor, the screw hole in the firring strip should elongate. Since they are about 12" apart, I doubt there will be noticeable "stretching" of the holes. When it was all in, I foamed it in place. It is now one very solid monocaulk (??) and strong enough to attach "furniture" etc Hope that is of help Gord Wesley Cox wrote: > > No specific experience here, but I would think this to be likely. Wood > and steel have very different rates of expansion. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kingsknight4life > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 6:45 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Attaching firring strips > > I was thinking about firring strips when someone mentioned having to > weld lots of tabs inside the hull to screw them to. Well way back, I > did a test and glued and old rusty piece of metal (portlight cut out) > that had sat on the ground, rusty and dirty for months, to a piece of > wood (fir or hemlock) let it sit for 2 days and then tried to pull it > apart. Well, the wood broke before the bond let go, I think this was > using bulldog grip but I'd have to check. I thought it was a success > and could go ahead and glue my firring strips in place, relying on the > glue and the foam to keep them from moving. However, I vaguely remember > someone telling me that gluing them wouldn't work becuase the wood and > metal will expand and contractat different rates. I think the post was > on the MBS forum and the reasoning was that the wood would pull free?? > > does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this matter? > Rowland > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1804 - Release Date: > 11/21/2008 6:24 PM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 18937|18932|2008-11-22 15:32:07|brentswain38|Re: Attaching firring strips|Once the foam and interior is in there is little chance of firring strips that hold only panneling going anywhere. For bulkheads and bigger pieces,I prefer tabs welded in . It only takes a dozen or so. I'd make sure there was lots of epoxy on the steel before glueing anything in. Andy had his wood bedded down on primer only and had a lot of problems with corosion behind it. Rowland , there is an inch of twist to the starboard front pilot house window on your boat.Quick and simple to fix . It becomes important if you want to use glass on the window, which is your only choice if you plan to have a wiper . I love my wind shield wiper , cruising these rainy Pacific Southwest winters. Check the power and telephone poles in your area. They use galv 1X7 for guy wires . They have their local sources so it should be localy available. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > No specific experience here, but I would think this to be likely. Wood and steel have very different rates of expansion. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kingsknight4life > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 6:45 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Attaching firring strips > > > I was thinking about firring strips when someone mentioned having to > weld lots of tabs inside the hull to screw them to. Well way back, I > did a test and glued and old rusty piece of metal (portlight cut out) > that had sat on the ground, rusty and dirty for months, to a piece of > wood (fir or hemlock) let it sit for 2 days and then tried to pull it > apart. Well, the wood broke before the bond let go, I think this was > using bulldog grip but I'd have to check. I thought it was a success > and could go ahead and glue my firring strips in place, relying on the > glue and the foam to keep them from moving. However, I vaguely remember > someone telling me that gluing them wouldn't work becuase the wood and > metal will expand and contractat different rates. I think the post was > on the MBS forum and the reasoning was that the wood would pull free?? > > does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this matter? > Rowland > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1804 - Release Date: 11/21/2008 6:24 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18938|18882|2008-11-22 15:32:41|brentswain38|Re: Raised Aft Deck|I don't think the slight amount of extra space under the side decks would be all that useful. It does make it complicated to run the shaft for the inside trimtab steering . Not having this arrangement makes the cost and power drain of the alternatives much greater. Running the shaft around corners drastically reduces the effectiveness of trimtab self steering. The lack of protection from the elements from this arrangement is also a big issue. Often when you are in tight quarters and have to be on deck in bad weather , this becomes not only a comfort factor, but a huge safety factor. A friend ended up on the rocks when his exposed cockpit led to hypothermia and the resulting bad decision making,decisions made in desperation. ts@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Brent > Surely it gives.some increase in useful space? > Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > and doesn't add any useful space inside. I > > > | 18939|18914|2008-11-22 15:32:54|brentswain38|Re: Building masts?|A 40 footer is huge compared to a 36. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Brent > Before buying Gene's hull I priced out the plate/sheets to build a 40 ft. hull at $12K.Not primed or wheel abraded as I hear that is impossible to get here in AB. > Rowland > | 18940|18921|2008-11-22 15:33:06|brentswain38|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|Urethane sparay foam sticks like shit to a blanket , over epoxy tar. You can't scrape it of with a chisel. Given the amount of corrosion with foam over bare steel one would be foolish to foam over bare steel or primer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > > > Talking of foam, wich ones have a good adherence and wich ones dont? > > anyone with an answer? > > Martin > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > > > > Do you have a trade name, supplier ? > > > > Another, important consideration, is whether it is fire-resistant and > > whether it´s toxic when on fire (some foam create cyanide etc if in a > > fire !) > > AFAIK, foam is a major cost in a large hull, several thousand dollars > > for a 16 m hull, for example. > > Also, any examples of marine use would be an important point ... > > > > I believe some std foams may not have sufficiently good adherence ... > > and if this is the case, the hull may rust under the foam, that would be > > a disaster. > > OTOH ... a cheap foam would be very welcome. > > More details would be appreciated. > > > > Hannu > > > > > > dbourg2002 wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" and do not > > > have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this crazy idea > > > when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply well to steel > > > boats. > > > > > > In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I sprayed on with a > > > shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer nozzle. This > > > stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail.) It has some advantages as I > > > see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it self-heals > > > should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. > > > > > > I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra protection > > > inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be inaccessable. > > > It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such but I think > > > the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it would help as > > > protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with tar epoxy. > > > > > > I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy idea. > > > > > > Don B. > > > (Prairie gringo) > > > > > > __._,_ > > > | 18941|18927|2008-11-22 15:33:28|brentswain38|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|Mine has drasticaly reduced the condensation, but when I cook, things still drip. It is a huge improvement, but no sustitute for foam, unfortunately. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Hello All > Thought I would give a report of how it is doing. > The boat has been closed up for weeks, empty shell with windows and hatches > on, Its foggy and wet outside, outside of boat is wet with water dripping > off and the inside is dry as a bone. Rubed my hand under decks and sides and > she feels dry no condinsation. So my report is it does work at keeping her > dry. > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18942|18867|2008-11-22 15:33:55|brentswain38|Re: Peter Wiley's comments|In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell for a gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for detailing and 100 for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Peter, posting publicly while not in a good mood is not recommended. > > Calling the whole Origami process a "caper" ignores the successes > people had with it and I think it's kind of mean-spirited, plus makes > me wonder why you reached for that ordnance without considering what > you are saying, as well as how you are saying it. > > Also, broadcasting untruths about the state of my hull (it was well > more than simply tacked together during my tenure with it) really is > uncalled for and I have to question what kind of person configures > conjecture as fact, then ventures further broadcast it in this > medium. It colours everything you say after that, it taints your > subsequent statements deeply. Did you visit my hull and see if for > yourself? Did you ask me to what degree it was completed before you > constructed your statement? Nope. For the record, it was nearly > completely detailed and all seams that counted were heavily welded. > > My reasons for passing the project to Haidan, at no profit to me, > have no bearing on the worthiness of the origami techniques so don't > even go there unless you want to look like a complete red-herring > factory. > > I'm very tired of reading "My 20 years of marine engineering... My > vast experience in the world of bla bla bla...my extensive background > in etc etc", then finding so many inaccuracies in their statements, > as well as blatant mis-truths and sometimes mean-spirited jibes at me > or others personally. Where is this vitriol coming from? > > By the way, the concave curvature in the Witch's bow you mentioned > did nothing but look like Colvin's attempt to copy a clipper ship bow > onto a little boat, and worse, it removed bouyancy precisely from a > place where it was needed for such a small steel vessel where weight > in the ends requires fuller sections. It resulted in a hull which > did not lift to waves but rather plowed/pile-drived through them like > a submarine. "Pretty" does not always equal survival, though it looks > nice on paper or at the dock I guess. > > And the floors Peter mentioned are only located as webs across the > keel tops. There are four of them, and it makes the twin keel > configuration not only possible, but very strong. Peter made it sound > as if the whole hull is filled up again with framing, and this is > simply not true (again, DO go take a walk inside one and have a look > for yourself). > > > Alex > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from my > > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes origami > hulls. > > > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that can't > be > > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done if > you > > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the > underwater > > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. The > > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have is > a > > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst and > > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine > engineering > > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there is > never > > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you compromise > hull > > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull > *skin* > > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from people > > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing away > any > > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his after > > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% of > > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not in > fact > > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and then > you > > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like > everywhere > > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an > example, > > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have found > it > > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion and > I'm > > LAZY. > > > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom does > for > > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot of > steel > > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. Anyway, > > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you go to > > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing floors > to > > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the keels > > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. I've > > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck off of > > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of the > keel > > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another (MISTRESS > > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia > coast. > > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the Great > > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger than > > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have > frameless > > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine vessel > > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 years > > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a big > dent > > cut out. > > > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's Gazelle, as > > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no engine) it > > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched 38' > > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. Approx > 1 > > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same > interior > > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, > Tom's > > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative mass > > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of material. > > Mass doesn't lie. > > > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of Tom's > > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set of > > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for a > lot > > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the designer's > > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull > that's > > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You also > > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you care > > about resale. > > > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you get > > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set of > > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler that > I > > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think again. I > > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if it > is > > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it won't > > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the hull > > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel 50' > > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can use > > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller > origami > > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to be > more > > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld plates > > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get pretty > > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, you'll > > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their curved > > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate but > then > > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam welds > > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the hull > > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed hull > > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre seam? I > > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they never > got > > to that bit. > > > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of all > > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have numbers > > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > > > PDW > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking > here! > > > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a few > hulls > > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could > likely get > > > some hands on measurements. > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are > 1930's > > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and > material, > > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his > answer is > > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of one > of > > > > those > > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. > There's > > > > a > > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% > of it. > > > > By > > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time or > > > > money, > > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than > otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he > does > > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and > other > > > > sites > > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question but > not > > > > quite. > > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade away > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or > not, nor > > > > the > > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a perfect > > > > cruising > > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have > different > > > > needs > > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls of > > > > Colvin's. > > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which are > at 48' > > > > and > > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate for > this > > > > type > > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall hull > weight > > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18943|18867|2008-11-22 15:35:01|brentswain38|Re: Colvin hull abortions|Icebreakers and origami yachts are worlds apart. Sailing big ships and sailing small yachts are worlds apart. The rules you apply to one can be a disaster when applied to the other. I've seen enough examples of that. This reminds me of the guy I once met who said "I did welding and building of excavators , so I know all about steel sailboats." Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Colvin hulls rank right up there with Bruce Roberts hulls for having > the most hulks sitting incomplete in storage yards around the world. > The building of them is not at all as simple as origami. Of course > you should research this yourself, don't just take my word for it, go > talk to people who have tried to build those hulls, and poke around > boat yards where people are working on boats. > > I worked on a Colvin Witch hull with the aforementioned 3mm and 4mm > plate and it was an abortion. The original builder couldn't put it > together without distortion from all the non-contiguous hull plates > being welded together, and there were so many "wows" in that hull > that was just plain scary (though I imagine it floated, after a > fashion). Even an amateur builder in origami will not generally end > up with that distortion -- fairness is inherent in the origami > process. The unreachable nooks and crannies created by the frames > (they used angle-iron welded face-down so you could not even paint > under it), as well as the wide box keel (it was so wide that you > could stand in it with both legs and still had room to move) created > so many rust zones/moisture traps that in time the original hull had > rusted through with perforations which had been patched over with > pieces of plate. To be fair to the design, it didn't help that the > original owner tried to scrimp and just glued thin foam to the hull > for insulation, which of course allowed moisture to form behind the > air pockets between the hull plate and insulation. Nor did he > properly prime and paint the inside of the hull, which only further > invited trouble. Anyhow, that hull made my knees ache looking at her, > and I'm glad that the owner wisely chose to abandon the project. You > might still be able to go and inspect it, I believe, at the > Independent Shipwrights storage yard in Coombs, BC. See if your knees > start aching when looking at it too. It was such a waste of steel, > money and effort, it's sad to see. > > Whenever possible, go and see a REAL example of the boats you are > pondering buying or building, rather than being taken in by the > sometimes pure conjecture cloaked as "fact" by self-styled experts, > sometimes with stunningly silver-coated language which looks and > sounds believable but in the end turns out to be as flimsy as Bush's > claims about "Weapons of Mass Destruction". It's amazing what blarney > people can spout with a few keystrokes! A fine example of this was > when one so-called "expert" went to see my hull (the one Haidan is > finishing) and delivered his report to the group, claiming that it > had huge distortions as well as erosion. Go have a look at that hull > at Haidan's place and decide for yourself if it doesn't have nice > curves end to end and a hull skin nearly as smooth as a baby's ass, > and with no filler at all. Also note that the "expert" wrote about > three paragraphs about his expertise in the field of boatbuilding and > welding before he delivered his damning report...as if he was worried > that people wouldn't believe his statements, so he had to snow them > with his lofty credentials. Whenever people spend so much time > proclaiming their alleged expert background, you should raise a red > flag and listen with caution. People who talk too much usually have > very little of substance to say, more often than not. > > Anyone can say anything they like, but in the end the real proof can > be within your reach simply buy taking a walk or drive and seeing the > facts for youself on actual hulls, and speaking to the people who > have real experience with those boats. > > Alex > | 18944|18914|2008-11-22 15:35:03|brentswain38|Re: Building masts?|Victor bough the steel for a 36 two summers ago for $9500. I think a comparison of the current price to that price would be a good indicator. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > After hearing people saying that the price of steel is so high , that > > one may as well go for aluminium pipe. So yeaterday I checke dout th > > epi rice of a 20 ft length of aly pipe . Holy shit! over $2,000 for a > > 20 ft length! So much for that idea. > > > Brent, > have you priced out the steel lately? I was wondering what sail track > goes for, last timeI chcked was on the WEst marine website and it was > redonkulously high! > Rowland > | 18945|18867|2008-11-22 20:46:30|Barney|Re: Peter Wiley's comments|For the life of me I can't see why there would be design sacrifices in doing a bigger hull in Origami but I wanted to throw it out there. The only concern I see is weight, especially when dealing with a low aspect rig and shallow draft. The point Alex brought up also seems valid, that of a novice builder getting a bumpy wavy hull that while functional will seriously effect resale value. It often seems that CAD gets ignored along with other technological advances due them being "newfangled" or the traditionalists feeling that somehow your not paying enough "penance" to get on the water. Barney On Sat, 2008-11-22 at 19:43 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell for a > gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for detailing and 100 > for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > Peter, posting publicly while not in a good mood is not recommended. > > > > Calling the whole Origami process a "caper" ignores the successes > > people had with it and I think it's kind of mean-spirited, plus > makes > > me wonder why you reached for that ordnance without considering > what > > you are saying, as well as how you are saying it. > > > > Also, broadcasting untruths about the state of my hull (it was well > > more than simply tacked together during my tenure with it) really > is > > uncalled for and I have to question what kind of person configures > > conjecture as fact, then ventures further broadcast it in this > > medium. It colours everything you say after that, it taints your > > subsequent statements deeply. Did you visit my hull and see if for > > yourself? Did you ask me to what degree it was completed before you > > constructed your statement? Nope. For the record, it was nearly > > completely detailed and all seams that counted were heavily welded. > > > > My reasons for passing the project to Haidan, at no profit to me, > > have no bearing on the worthiness of the origami techniques so > don't > > even go there unless you want to look like a complete red-herring > > factory. > > > > I'm very tired of reading "My 20 years of marine engineering... My > > vast experience in the world of bla bla bla...my extensive > background > > in etc etc", then finding so many inaccuracies in their statements, > > as well as blatant mis-truths and sometimes mean-spirited jibes at > me > > or others personally. Where is this vitriol coming from? > > > > By the way, the concave curvature in the Witch's bow you mentioned > > did nothing but look like Colvin's attempt to copy a clipper ship > bow > > onto a little boat, and worse, it removed bouyancy precisely from a > > place where it was needed for such a small steel vessel where > weight > > in the ends requires fuller sections. It resulted in a hull which > > did not lift to waves but rather plowed/pile-drived through them > like > > a submarine. "Pretty" does not always equal survival, though it > looks > > nice on paper or at the dock I guess. > > > > And the floors Peter mentioned are only located as webs across the > > keel tops. There are four of them, and it makes the twin keel > > configuration not only possible, but very strong. Peter made it > sound > > as if the whole hull is filled up again with framing, and this is > > simply not true (again, DO go take a walk inside one and have a > look > > for yourself). > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from my > > > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > > > > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes > origami > > hulls. > > > > > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that > can't > > be > > > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > > > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done > if > > you > > > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the > > underwater > > > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > > > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. The > > > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have > is > > a > > > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst > and > > > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine > > engineering > > > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there is > > never > > > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > > > > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you compromise > > hull > > > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull > > *skin* > > > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from > people > > > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing away > > any > > > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his > after > > > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% > of > > > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > > > > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not in > > fact > > > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > > > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > > > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and > then > > you > > > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like > > everywhere > > > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an > > example, > > > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > > > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have > found > > it > > > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion > and > > I'm > > > LAZY. > > > > > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom > does > > for > > > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot of > > steel > > > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. Anyway, > > > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you go > to > > > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing > floors > > to > > > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the keels > > > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. > I've > > > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck off > of > > > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of the > > keel > > > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another > (MISTRESS > > > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia > > coast. > > > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the Great > > > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > > > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger > than > > > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have > > frameless > > > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine > vessel > > > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 > years > > > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a big > > dent > > > cut out. > > > > > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's Gazelle, > as > > > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no engine) > it > > > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched 38' > > > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. > Approx > > 1 > > > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same > > interior > > > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, > > Tom's > > > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > > > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative > mass > > > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of > material. > > > Mass doesn't lie. > > > > > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of > Tom's > > > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set of > > > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > > > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for a > > lot > > > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the > designer's > > > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull > > that's > > > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You also > > > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you > care > > > about resale. > > > > > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you get > > > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set of > > > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler > that > > I > > > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > > > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > > > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think again. > I > > > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if > it > > is > > > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > > > > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it > won't > > > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the hull > > > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel > 50' > > > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can > use > > > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller > > origami > > > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to be > > more > > > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld plates > > > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get > pretty > > > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, > you'll > > > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their > curved > > > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate but > > then > > > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > > > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam > welds > > > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the hull > > > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed > hull > > > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre seam? > I > > > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they > never > > got > > > to that bit. > > > > > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of > all > > > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > > > > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > > > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have > numbers > > > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking > > here! > > > > > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a > few > > hulls > > > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could > > likely get > > > > some hands on measurements. > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are > > 1930's > > > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and > > material, > > > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his > > answer is > > > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of > one > > of > > > > > those > > > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. > > There's > > > > > a > > > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% > > of it. > > > > > By > > > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time > or > > > > > money, > > > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than > > otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he > > does > > > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and > > other > > > > > sites > > > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question > but > > not > > > > > quite. > > > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade > away > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or > > not, nor > > > > > the > > > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a > perfect > > > > > cruising > > > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have > > different > > > > > needs > > > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls > of > > > > > Colvin's. > > > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which > are > > at 48' > > > > > and > > > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate > for > > this > > > > > type > > > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall > hull > > weight > > > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important > > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18946|18946|2008-11-22 20:46:37|Gary H. Lucas|Brent's postings|Brent, I hate to ask, but has something bad happened in your life? You post a lot more now, and it seems to be of the bashing variety more than the helpful guy you have always been. To a new reader of this group you might come off as the kind people we all try to avoid, when I know that is not the case. Best Regards, Gary H. Lucas| 18947|18947|2008-11-22 20:46:59|Gary H. Lucas|Coating a Cast Iron Keel|I've pulled the cast iron retractable keel off my Etap 26, probably for the first time in 24 years. The very top portion never goes in the water and is still painted. The next level down had 1/4" of rust on both sides, where it is always in the water, but out of sight in the keel trunk. The bottom half was always wet but got bottom painted, and has some large rusting patches with no paint. It will be sandblasted clean, then heated to at least 250 degrees to drive out the water from the porous cast iron. I know this is necessary, I once encapsulated a Catalina 22 swing keel, and couldn't get the epoxy to cure properly until I heated to 180 degrees for 10 days! So what should I be priming and painting this thing with? Gary H. Lucas| 18948|18927|2008-11-22 20:47:03|Tom Mann|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|Cooking with Propane will cause moisture condinsation, I wonder if alcahol is the same? Tom On 11/22/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > Mine has drasticaly reduced the condensation, but when I cook, things > still drip. It is a huge improvement, but no sustitute for foam, > unfortunately. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Hello All > > Thought I would give a report of how it is doing. > > The boat has been closed up for weeks, empty shell with windows and > hatches > > on, Its foggy and wet outside, outside of boat is wet with water > dripping > > off and the inside is dry as a bone. Rubed my hand under decks and > sides and > > she feels dry no condinsation. So my report is it does work at > keeping her > > dry. > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18949|18921|2008-11-22 20:47:10|dbourg2002|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|So what does the group think of this idea? The application would be epoxy tar then the wax rustproofing then urathane foam. Maybe the rustproofing would only need to be sprayed in the hard to access areas. This would save money and provide piece of mind about the rust issues in these areas. By the way, I bought my rustproofing at a local autobody store. All the stores in my area (WInnipeg) seem to carry it. The only issue I would want to test is the ability of the foam to stick to the rustproofing. In terms of fire rating, I don't see it as an issue as if the fire gets down to the steel it's probably to late anyway. Maybe during the cold dark winter I'll do a adhesion test steel/epoxy/rustproofing/foam. Don B. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Urethane sparay foam sticks like shit to a blanket , over epoxy tar. > You can't scrape it of with a chisel. > Given the amount of corrosion with foam over bare steel one would be > foolish to foam over bare steel or primer. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Talking of foam, wich ones have a good adherence and wich ones dont? > > > > anyone with an answer? > > > > Martin > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" > wrote: > > > > > > Do you have a trade name, supplier ? > > > > > > Another, important consideration, is whether it is fire- resistant and > > > whether it´s toxic when on fire (some foam create cyanide etc if in a > > > fire !) > > > AFAIK, foam is a major cost in a large hull, several thousand dollars > > > for a 16 m hull, for example. > > > Also, any examples of marine use would be an important point ... > > > > > > I believe some std foams may not have sufficiently good adherence ... > > > and if this is the case, the hull may rust under the foam, that > would be > > > a disaster. > > > OTOH ... a cheap foam would be very welcome. > > > More details would be appreciated. > > > > > > Hannu > > > > > > > > > dbourg2002 wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" and do not > > > > have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this crazy idea > > > > when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply well to > steel > > > > boats. > > > > > > > > In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I sprayed on > with a > > > > shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer nozzle. This > > > > stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail.) It has some advantages as I > > > > see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it self- heals > > > > should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. > > > > > > > > I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra protection > > > > inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be > inaccessable. > > > > It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such but I think > > > > the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it would > help as > > > > protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with tar epoxy. > > > > > > > > I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy idea. > > > > > > > > Don B. > > > > (Prairie gringo) > > > > > > > > __._,_ > > > > > > | 18951|18947|2008-11-23 00:57:39|djackson99@aol.com|Windows, Differentials and Electric Drive|For starters we found 14 windows for our pilot house and drove home for $500.? They even came with there very own running school bus which is going to provided lots of others parts as well as it's windows.? But we've been looking electric drives still and that bus differential got me thinking about the following.? I'd really appreciate any feedback about this idea.? I know its not KISS but it's not the first time I've been Stupid and I rather enjoy the creative mixes of technologies even if it is more work.? It keeps me from just looking a more porn. On a 40 ton displacement boat, there is just no-way I'm going to replace a big turbo charged diesel with an electric motor. The number of generators and power combiner box, frequency speed control, and huge AC motor is just too much for me to deal with.? So the big turbo charged diesel stays.? However we still plan on having a lot of power hungry tools in the hold so we need a 20 wk, 3 phase, diesel generator as well as a large bank of batteries to power moderate loads without the generator and to store free power from sun, wind, and prop regeneration.? That 20 kw generator will burn about 1.4 gph at full load.? Just starting the John Deer 6068 or Cat 3116 up means we start burning 2.7+ gph and it goes up to about 9 or 10 gph. So to me it makes sense to consider adding a 20 kw 3 phase AC motor that can be used for slow speeds and powered off that generator. This also provides a backup propulsion system should the main engine need repairs. Hence I could live with my low cost Cat 3116 and not pay the $20K for that beautiful John Deer 6068. In addition a 10 to 17 kw permanent magnet DC motor could be powered off the 96 volt DC battery bank for making short hops. The DC motor on the drive shaft would also provide a method for regenerating off the prop when under sail or when under generator or diesel power. While standing beside our school bus today I decided that the rear end differential might be a good way to put both a big diesel and the/or AC and/or DC motors onto the drive shaft and save buying a real gearbox.? The diesel could be set in transverse to prop shaft and off to one side and connect to the differential through a drive shaft directly from the flywheel.? The differential would provide something close to a? 4:1 gear reduction as it normally would. One axel would connect to the prop shaft and the other would connect to the electric motors.? This axel would also have a shaft break.? With the break applied on the AC/DC motor axel the diesel would spin the prop.? When the diesel is shutdown either the AC or DC motor or both could be engaged with a clutch and belt or with a spur gear that slides into place onto a keyway in the axel. The break would be released and the prop would either be power by the AC or DC or both motors, or it could spin the DC motor to regenerate and charge the batteries.? The compression in the diesel and the gear reduction would prevent that drive shaft from turning when the electric motors are spinning.? Docking, which we will seldom do will be done under AC or DC power because that is the only way we have reverse available. Oh; No we are not tree huggers.? If we though diesel was going to be $3 a gallon, we would not even consider electirc drive :) Thanks for your ideas Doug & Kay Jackson www.SubmarineBoat.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18952|18946|2008-11-23 00:58:34|Carl Anderson|Re: Brent's postings|thank you gary.... whew - wish the O' site would stick to building boats... let's hope the tread goes in that direction... We're in the midst of it -[i.e., M.O.M.] hard enough without the bashing of our beloved boat builder. we'd be no where w/o im'. Brent, come on, be nice .... you really need to sail away ... For someone who doesn't have "a real job", nor ever has, you need to "chill" !!!!!!!!!!! quityerbellyakin' k Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > Brent, > I hate to ask, but has something bad happened in your life? You post a lot > more now, and it seems to be of the bashing variety more than the helpful > guy you have always been. To a new reader of this group you might come off > as the kind people we all try to avoid, when I know that is not the case. > > Best Regards, > > Gary H. Lucas > > | 18953|18867|2008-11-23 00:58:43|brentswain38|Re: Peter Wiley's comments|Cad is agreat way tio go and will save a huge amount of time on an origami hull --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney wrote: > > For the life of me I can't see why there would be design sacrifices in > doing a bigger hull in Origami but I wanted to throw it out there. The > only concern I see is weight, especially when dealing with a low aspect > rig and shallow draft. > > The point Alex brought up also seems valid, that of a novice builder > getting a bumpy wavy hull that while functional will seriously effect > resale value. > > It often seems that CAD gets ignored along with other technological > advances due them being "newfangled" or the traditionalists feeling that > somehow your not paying enough "penance" to get on the water. > > Barney > > > On Sat, 2008-11-22 at 19:43 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell for a > > gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for detailing and 100 > > for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > Peter, posting publicly while not in a good mood is not recommended. > > > > > > Calling the whole Origami process a "caper" ignores the successes > > > people had with it and I think it's kind of mean-spirited, plus > > makes > > > me wonder why you reached for that ordnance without considering > > what > > > you are saying, as well as how you are saying it. > > > > > > Also, broadcasting untruths about the state of my hull (it was well > > > more than simply tacked together during my tenure with it) really > > is > > > uncalled for and I have to question what kind of person configures > > > conjecture as fact, then ventures further broadcast it in this > > > medium. It colours everything you say after that, it taints your > > > subsequent statements deeply. Did you visit my hull and see if for > > > yourself? Did you ask me to what degree it was completed before you > > > constructed your statement? Nope. For the record, it was nearly > > > completely detailed and all seams that counted were heavily welded. > > > > > > My reasons for passing the project to Haidan, at no profit to me, > > > have no bearing on the worthiness of the origami techniques so > > don't > > > even go there unless you want to look like a complete red-herring > > > factory. > > > > > > I'm very tired of reading "My 20 years of marine engineering... My > > > vast experience in the world of bla bla bla...my extensive > > background > > > in etc etc", then finding so many inaccuracies in their statements, > > > as well as blatant mis-truths and sometimes mean-spirited jibes at > > me > > > or others personally. Where is this vitriol coming from? > > > > > > By the way, the concave curvature in the Witch's bow you mentioned > > > did nothing but look like Colvin's attempt to copy a clipper ship > > bow > > > onto a little boat, and worse, it removed bouyancy precisely from a > > > place where it was needed for such a small steel vessel where > > weight > > > in the ends requires fuller sections. It resulted in a hull which > > > did not lift to waves but rather plowed/pile-drived through them > > like > > > a submarine. "Pretty" does not always equal survival, though it > > looks > > > nice on paper or at the dock I guess. > > > > > > And the floors Peter mentioned are only located as webs across the > > > keel tops. There are four of them, and it makes the twin keel > > > configuration not only possible, but very strong. Peter made it > > sound > > > as if the whole hull is filled up again with framing, and this is > > > simply not true (again, DO go take a walk inside one and have a > > look > > > for yourself). > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from my > > > > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > > > > > > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes > > origami > > > hulls. > > > > > > > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that > > can't > > > be > > > > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > > > > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done > > if > > > you > > > > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the > > > underwater > > > > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > > > > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. The > > > > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have > > is > > > a > > > > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst > > and > > > > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine > > > engineering > > > > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there is > > > never > > > > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > > > > > > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you compromise > > > hull > > > > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull > > > *skin* > > > > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from > > people > > > > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing away > > > any > > > > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his > > after > > > > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% > > of > > > > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > > > > > > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not in > > > fact > > > > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > > > > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > > > > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and > > then > > > you > > > > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like > > > everywhere > > > > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an > > > example, > > > > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > > > > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have > > found > > > it > > > > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion > > and > > > I'm > > > > LAZY. > > > > > > > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom > > does > > > for > > > > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot of > > > steel > > > > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. Anyway, > > > > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you go > > to > > > > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing > > floors > > > to > > > > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the keels > > > > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. > > I've > > > > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck off > > of > > > > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of the > > > keel > > > > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another > > (MISTRESS > > > > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia > > > coast. > > > > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the Great > > > > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > > > > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger > > than > > > > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have > > > frameless > > > > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine > > vessel > > > > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 > > years > > > > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a big > > > dent > > > > cut out. > > > > > > > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's Gazelle, > > as > > > > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no engine) > > it > > > > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched 38' > > > > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. > > Approx > > > 1 > > > > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same > > > interior > > > > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, > > > Tom's > > > > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > > > > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative > > mass > > > > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of > > material. > > > > Mass doesn't lie. > > > > > > > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of > > Tom's > > > > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set of > > > > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > > > > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for a > > > lot > > > > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the > > designer's > > > > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull > > > that's > > > > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You also > > > > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you > > care > > > > about resale. > > > > > > > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you get > > > > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set of > > > > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler > > that > > > I > > > > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > > > > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > > > > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think again. > > I > > > > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if > > it > > > is > > > > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > > > > > > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it > > won't > > > > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the hull > > > > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel > > 50' > > > > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can > > use > > > > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller > > > origami > > > > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to be > > > more > > > > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld plates > > > > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get > > pretty > > > > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, > > you'll > > > > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their > > curved > > > > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate but > > > then > > > > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > > > > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam > > welds > > > > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the hull > > > > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed > > hull > > > > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre seam? > > I > > > > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they > > never > > > got > > > > to that bit. > > > > > > > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of > > all > > > > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > > > > > > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > > > > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have > > numbers > > > > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking > > > here! > > > > > > > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a > > few > > > hulls > > > > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could > > > likely get > > > > > some hands on measurements. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are > > > 1930's > > > > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and > > > material, > > > > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his > > > answer is > > > > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of > > one > > > of > > > > > > those > > > > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. > > > There's > > > > > > a > > > > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% > > > of it. > > > > > > By > > > > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time > > or > > > > > > money, > > > > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than > > > otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he > > > does > > > > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and > > > other > > > > > > sites > > > > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question > > but > > > not > > > > > > quite. > > > > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade > > away > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or > > > not, nor > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a > > perfect > > > > > > cruising > > > > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have > > > different > > > > > > needs > > > > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls > > of > > > > > > Colvin's. > > > > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which > > are > > > at 48' > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate > > for > > > this > > > > > > type > > > > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall > > hull > > > weight > > > > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important > > > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18954|18946|2008-11-23 00:58:46|brentswain38|Re: Brent's postings|I got backstabbed major in the building and design field and had to respond . Done with that now, unless someone want to resurect it. The screwup warnings were long overdue. Hope they save you guys from some pitfalls Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > I hate to ask, but has something bad happened in your life? You post a lot > more now, and it seems to be of the bashing variety more than the helpful > guy you have always been. To a new reader of this group you might come off > as the kind people we all try to avoid, when I know that is not the case. > > Best Regards, > > Gary H. Lucas > | 18955|18947|2008-11-23 00:58:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: Coating a Cast Iron Keel|On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 06:18:41PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > I've pulled the cast iron retractable keel off my Etap 26, probably for the > first time in 24 years. The very top portion never goes in the water and is > still painted. The next level down had 1/4" of rust on both sides, where it > is always in the water, but out of sight in the keel trunk. The bottom half > was always wet but got bottom painted, and has some large rusting patches > with no paint. > > It will be sandblasted clean, then heated to at least 250 degrees to drive > out the water from the porous cast iron. I know this is necessary, I once > encapsulated a Catalina 22 swing keel, and couldn't get the epoxy to cure > properly until I heated to 180 degrees for 10 days! > > So what should I be priming and painting this thing with? On a 16' Rebel's swing keel, I chipped off all the rust and hit the surface really hard with a 7" sanding disc, then used Interprotect 2000 - a guy in the boatyard was redoing his blistered fiberglass hull and had about half a gallon left over, so I gave him a few bucks for it. Then I put the antifouling right over it. It held up perfectly for as long as I owned the boat. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18956|18927|2008-11-23 00:59:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 02:35:18PM -0800, Tom Mann wrote: > Cooking with Propane will cause moisture condinsation, I wonder if alcahol > is the same? Much worse, in my experience. The first stove I ever had on a boat was an Origo alcohol stove; it was a pain in the ass to get going (the alcohol fumes would burn your eyes for the first several minutes as you warmed it up in the winter), didn't cook worth a damn - alcohol is very low-energy as compared to propane - and caused huge amounts of condensation. I got to hate the thing in just a couple of months. I switched to a camping stove that ran on propane, and the condensation went down by two thirds. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18957|18921|2008-11-23 00:59:13|Paul Wilson|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|Hi Don, If you blast and paint properly (as we all do :), I see no reason to use the wax. It will definitely prevent the foam from sticking. The wax or anything else like it, to me, is a temporary measure and not necessary if you paint properly. I used a wax coating (LPS amber seal?) on my engine once and it eventually peeled off and allowed water under it. Once it started peeling, it actually promoted corrosion since it trapped water under it. It was probably affected by the heat of the engine and to be honest probably not designed for it so it may have been better in the bilge. I now use grease thinned out with turpentine until I can spray it with a bottle onto the engine as a rust/corrosion inhibitor. Don’t use paint thinner, it will attack anything plastic. This is cheap and works much better than anything else I have found. I prefer synthetic grease since it never seems to dry out but a lanolin based grease would probably be great too. It makes a bit of a mess but you have zero corrosion if you chip or bang something. I would rather have to wash my hands after working on the engine than deal with rust all the time. If you do have a really bad spot that refuses to be painted properly, I have seen a product called Res Q Steel made by International that looks kind of interesting. I have never used it but it’s supposed to stop corrosion on previously rusty areas. It’s a thick red paste and I suspect nasty stuff. http://www.yachtpaint.com/australia//product_guide/special_products/AU_Res_Q _Steel.asp?ComponentID=18852 &SourcePageID=13346#1 I am not sure if you can get it in North America. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dbourg2002 Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 9:54 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: crazy rustproofing idea So what does the group think of this idea? The application would be epoxy tar then the wax rustproofing then urathane foam. Maybe the rustproofing would only need to be sprayed in the hard to access areas. This would save money and provide piece of mind about the rust issues in these areas. By the way, I bought my rustproofing at a local autobody store. All the stores in my area (WInnipeg) seem to carry it. The only issue I would want to test is the ability of the foam to stick to the rustproofing. In terms of fire rating, I don't see it as an issue as if the fire gets down to the steel it's probably to late anyway. Maybe during the cold dark winter I'll do a adhesion test steel/epoxy/rustproofing/foam. Don B. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brentswain38" wrote: > > Urethane sparay foam sticks like shit to a blanket , over epoxy tar. > You can't scrape it of with a chisel. > Given the amount of corrosion with foam over bare steel one would be > foolish to foam over bare steel or primer. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Martin Demers" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Talking of foam, wich ones have a good adherence and wich ones dont? > > > > anyone with an answer? > > > > Martin > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "gcode fi (hanermo)" > wrote: > > > > > > Do you have a trade name, supplier ? > > > > > > Another, important consideration, is whether it is fire- resistant and > > > whether it´s toxic when on fire (some foam create cyanide etc if in a > > > fire !) > > > AFAIK, foam is a major cost in a large hull, several thousand dollars > > > for a 16 m hull, for example. > > > Also, any examples of marine use would be an important point ... > > > > > > I believe some std foams may not have sufficiently good adherence ... > > > and if this is the case, the hull may rust under the foam, that > would be > > > a disaster. > > > OTOH ... a cheap foam would be very welcome. > > > More details would be appreciated. > > > > > > Hannu > > > > > > > > > dbourg2002 wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" and do not > > > > have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this crazy idea > > > > when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply well to > steel > > > > boats. > > > > > > > > In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I sprayed on > with a > > > > shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer nozzle. This > > > > stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail.) It has some advantages as I > > > > see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it self- heals > > > > should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. > > > > > > > > I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra protection > > > > inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be > inaccessable. > > > > It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such but I think > > > > the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it would > help as > > > > protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with tar epoxy. > > > > > > > > I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy idea. > > > > > > > > Don B. > > > > (Prairie gringo) > > > > > > > > __._,_ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1803 - Release Date: 11/22/2008 10:34 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18958|18914|2008-11-23 00:59:21|Paul Wilson|Re: Building masts?|Here is a steel price chart. http://www.ttiinc.com/object/ME_Materials_Steel It's a pretty scary picture but you can see that recently the price has crashed. There is much speculation on which way the steel prices will go... http://news.mining.com/?s=steel+price Some think that the price may stay low through 2009 but I wouldn't bet on the current low (lower?) price lasting. The global slowdown and market craziness has made all commodities crash to a point that manufacturers aren't making a profit. The low price of oil probably won't last for the same reason. Who is going to produce something if it's costing them money or they can sell it for more at a later date? Global production will probably be cut back until the price goes high again. My two cents :). http://www.bworld.com.ph/BW112208/content.php?id=051 Is the wide difference in quotes for anything metal based on whether it is old or new stock? Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building masts? Victor bough the steel for a 36 two summers ago for $9500. I think a comparison of the current price to that price would be a good indicator. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > After hearing people saying that the price of steel is so high , that > > one may as well go for aluminium pipe. So yeaterday I checke dout th > > epi rice of a 20 ft length of aly pipe . Holy shit! over $2,000 for a > > 20 ft length! So much for that idea. > > > Brent, > have you priced out the steel lately? I was wondering what sail track > goes for, last timeI chcked was on the WEst marine website and it was > redonkulously high! > Rowland > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1803 - Release Date: 11/22/2008 10:34 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18959|18921|2008-11-23 00:59:26|Carl Volkwein|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|I just read an artical in the latest Cruising World magazine, about these boats called "waterline boats". Sandblasted to white metal inside and out, then sprayed above the waterline, on deck, and inside with hot2,000  degreesF zink.Once it's cooled 6 layers of regular and high build epoxy are sprayed, any nesesary faring is done with long boards then the Algrip. They clame they look just like fiberglass.I don't know what goes on the bottom. carlvolkwein --- On Fri, 11/21/08, Bruce wrote: From: Bruce Subject: [origamiboats] Re: crazy rustproofing idea To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 1:06 PM What is the name of this product and where do you buy it? --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > Hello, > > I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" and do not > have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this crazy idea > when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply well to steel > boats. > > In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I sprayed on with a > shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer nozzle. This > stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail. ) It has some advantages as I > see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it self-heals > should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. > > I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra protection > inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be inaccessable. > It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such but I think > the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it would help as > protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with tar epoxy. > > I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy idea. > > Don B. > (Prairie gringo) > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18960|18946|2008-11-23 02:21:27|Wally Paine|Re: Brent's postings|The screwup warnings have been among the most informative posts recently. Most of them have been copied into my Origami-to-keep folder.   Wally Paine --- On Sun, 23/11/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's postings To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 3:53 AM I got backstabbed major in the building and design field and had to respond . Done with that now, unless someone want to resurect it. The screwup warnings were long overdue. Hope they save you guys from some pitfalls Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > I hate to ask, but has something bad happened in your life? You post a lot > more now, and it seems to be of the bashing variety more than the helpful > guy you have always been. To a new reader of this group you might come off > as the kind people we all try to avoid, when I know that is not the case. > > Best Regards, > > Gary H. Lucas > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18961|18961|2008-11-23 02:21:59|kingsknight4life|Re: Peter Wiley's comments (edit)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell for a > > gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for detailing and > 100 for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me." For what its worth I kept track of the hours that I paid Brent for when he detailed my first hull. The total hours were 129 and that was all stainless detailing (bowroller and railings were partially done) and I had lots. He also welded and installed engine mounts, compression posts, cut out portlights/windows, bulkhead tabs,enclosed the ballast and many other things. His estimates are pretty accurate. He didn't charge me for the times I dragged him to the scrap yards "hunting" for parts, travel time or anytime that he wasn't actually working. I can also attest that he works damn hard. In fact if you can, have all your pieces built before hand, as you can't grind fast enough to keep up. lol This is NOT to say that any other builders don't work hard or as hard (not by ANY means), I just know that sometimes Brent's estimates ie. timelines, seem "too good to be true" or maybe err on the optimistic side. They are pretty much bang on at least as far as detailing goes, from my first hand experience. I'm sure building a boat this way puts you years ahead of people building frames. As far as people taking years to complete Brent boats I have NO doubt that that is true. That comes down to MANY factors ranging from free time,individual skill levels, money, level of finish desired, complexity, materials availability, indecisiveness etc. All of those variables are present in any project whether its a boat or anything else for that matter and have no reflection on the design. > Rowland > | 18962|18927|2008-11-23 18:09:21|J Fisher|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|Guys, All combustion makes water vapor. Complete combustion of a hydro carbon results in CO2 and H2O, if it is incomplete you also throw in some CO and NOX. I don't remember my thermo classes all that well, but when you burn a gallon of gas you get about 2 gallons of water, I think alcohol is slightly better since it has less H per molecule. A fuel with lower H content should make less water. C2H5OH is alcohol, propane is C3H8, so I would think that chemically alcohol should be better. H6 vs H8, still a lot less than gas C7H14. John -------Original Message------- From: Ben Okopnik Date: 11/22/2008 10:59:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 02:35:18PM -0800, Tom Mann wrote: > Cooking with Propane will cause moisture condinsation, I wonder if alcahol > is the same? Much worse, in my experience. The first stove I ever had on a boat was an Origo alcohol stove; it was a pain in the ass to get going (the alcohol fumes would burn your eyes for the first several minutes as you warmed it up in the winter), didn't cook worth a damn - alcohol is very low-energy as compared to propane - and caused huge amounts of condensation. I got to hate the thing in just a couple of months. I switched to a camping stove that ran on propane, and the condensation went down by two thirds. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18963|18867|2008-11-23 18:10:00|J Fisher|Re: Peter Wiley's comments|I think Brents point has always been that as the boats get bigger, you just don't have a good way to handle the plates any more. If you had a full sized ship yard maybe, but not for the home builder. Think the concept scales, but eventually they parts are just too big to handle. Heck even big ships are built in small parts, then assembled. I have toured a couple of shipyards in South Korea including Hyuandai Heavy Industries. They build the ship from manageable sized parts into assemblies, then assemble the assemblies. Pretty amazing to see. If I remember right, they build the bow and stern separate, then the center section in ~100 foot sections. John -------Original Message------- From: Barney Date: 11/22/2008 6:46:50 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Peter Wiley's comments For the life of me I can't see why there would be design sacrifices in doing a bigger hull in Origami but I wanted to throw it out there. The only concern I see is weight, especially when dealing with a low aspect rig and shallow draft. The point Alex brought up also seems valid, that of a novice builder getting a bumpy wavy hull that while functional will seriously effect resale value. It often seems that CAD gets ignored along with other technological advances due them being "newfangled" or the traditionalists feeling that somehow your not paying enough "penance" to get on the water. Barney On Sat, 2008-11-22 at 19:43 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell for a > gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for detailing and 100 > for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > Peter, posting publicly while not in a good mood is not recommended. > > > > Calling the whole Origami process a "caper" ignores the successes > > people had with it and I think it's kind of mean-spirited, plus > makes > > me wonder why you reached for that ordnance without considering > what > > you are saying, as well as how you are saying it. > > > > Also, broadcasting untruths about the state of my hull (it was well > > more than simply tacked together during my tenure with it) really > is > > uncalled for and I have to question what kind of person configures > > conjecture as fact, then ventures further broadcast it in this > > medium. It colours everything you say after that, it taints your > > subsequent statements deeply. Did you visit my hull and see if for > > yourself? Did you ask me to what degree it was completed before you > > constructed your statement? Nope. For the record, it was nearly > > completely detailed and all seams that counted were heavily welded. > > > > My reasons for passing the project to Haidan, at no profit to me, > > have no bearing on the worthiness of the origami techniques so > don't > > even go there unless you want to look like a complete red-herring > > factory. > > > > I'm very tired of reading "My 20 years of marine engineering... My > > vast experience in the world of bla bla bla...my extensive > background > > in etc etc", then finding so many inaccuracies in their statements, > > as well as blatant mis-truths and sometimes mean-spirited jibes at > me > > or others personally. Where is this vitriol coming from? > > > > By the way, the concave curvature in the Witch's bow you mentioned > > did nothing but look like Colvin's attempt to copy a clipper ship > bow > > onto a little boat, and worse, it removed bouyancy precisely from a > > place where it was needed for such a small steel vessel where > weight > > in the ends requires fuller sections. It resulted in a hull which > > did not lift to waves but rather plowed/pile-drived through them > like > > a submarine. "Pretty" does not always equal survival, though it > looks > > nice on paper or at the dock I guess. > > > > And the floors Peter mentioned are only located as webs across the > > keel tops. There are four of them, and it makes the twin keel > > configuration not only possible, but very strong. Peter made it > sound > > as if the whole hull is filled up again with framing, and this is > > simply not true (again, DO go take a walk inside one and have a > look > > for yourself). > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from my > > > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > > > > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes > origami > > hulls. > > > > > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that > can't > > be > > > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > > > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done > if > > you > > > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the > > underwater > > > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > > > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. The > > > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have > is > > a > > > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst > and > > > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine > > engineering > > > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there is > > never > > > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > > > > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you compromise > > hull > > > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull > > *skin* > > > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from > people > > > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing away > > any > > > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his > after > > > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% > of > > > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > > > > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not in > > fact > > > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > > > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > > > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and > then > > you > > > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like > > everywhere > > > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an > > example, > > > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > > > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have > found > > it > > > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion > and > > I'm > > > LAZY. > > > > > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom > does > > for > > > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot of > > steel > > > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. Anyway, > > > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you go > to > > > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing > floors > > to > > > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the keels > > > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. > I've > > > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck off > of > > > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of the > > keel > > > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another > (MISTRESS > > > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia > > coast. > > > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the Great > > > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > > > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger > than > > > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have > > frameless > > > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine > vessel > > > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 > years > > > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a big > > dent > > > cut out. > > > > > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's Gazelle, > as > > > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no engine) > it > > > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched 38' > > > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. > Approx > > 1 > > > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same > > interior > > > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, > > Tom's > > > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > > > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative > mass > > > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of > material. > > > Mass doesn't lie. > > > > > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of > Tom's > > > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set of > > > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > > > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for a > > lot > > > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the > designer's > > > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull > > that's > > > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You also > > > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you > care > > > about resale. > > > > > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you get > > > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set of > > > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler > that > > I > > > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > > > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > > > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think again. > I > > > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if > it > > is > > > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > > > > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it > won't > > > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the hull > > > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel > 50' > > > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can > use > > > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller > > origami > > > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to be > > more > > > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld plates > > > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get > pretty > > > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, > you'll > > > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their > curved > > > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate but > > then > > > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > > > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam > welds > > > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the hull > > > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed > hull > > > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre seam? > I > > > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they > never > > got > > > to that bit. > > > > > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of > all > > > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > > > > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > > > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have > numbers > > > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking > > here! > > > > > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a > few > > hulls > > > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could > > likely get > > > > some hands on measurements. > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods are > > 1930's > > > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and > > material, > > > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his > > answer is > > > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of > one > > of > > > > > those > > > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another matter. > > There's > > > > > a > > > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe 20% > > of it. > > > > > By > > > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much time > or > > > > > money, > > > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than > > otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but he > > does > > > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and > > other > > > > > sites > > > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question > but > > not > > > > > quite. > > > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade > away > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile or > > not, nor > > > > > the > > > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a > perfect > > > > > cruising > > > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have > > different > > > > > needs > > > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger hulls > of > > > > > Colvin's. > > > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which > are > > at 48' > > > > > and > > > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate > for > > this > > > > > type > > > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall > hull > > weight > > > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very important > > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18964|18914|2008-11-23 18:12:00|J Fisher|Re: Building masts?|Problem with some of the steel suppliers is they were buying at high prices then the bottom fell out. They got stuck with the high priced inventory since the change happened so fast. I have heard this from several vendors on other metal products recently. John -------Original Message------- From: kingsknight4life Date: 11/21/2008 5:48:08 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building masts? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Yep price of aluminum is still pretty high. Last week I got 4 sheets of > treadbright for an aluminum catle trailer, price was $1475 for 488 Lbs. > Price of steel is comming down but its slow doing it. > Tom >Funny how prices skyrocket when there's a "chance" of increased demand or perceived shortage but come down slowly? lol Oil prices are probably the worst for this, eg. offshore oil platforms MIGHT be affected by huricanes in the gulf so prices at thte pump jump 10 cents/litre but when they survive storms unscathed or the storms by pass the platforms completely the decrease takes months? HMMM! rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18965|18946|2008-11-23 18:12:35|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brent's postings|On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 06:08:00AM +0000, Wally Paine wrote: > The screwup warnings have been among the most informative posts > recently. Most of them have been copied into my Origami-to-keep > folder.   Thanks, Wally - I was just about to post the same exact words, but you beat me to it. As far as I'm concerned, Brent's version of "bellyaching" is more useful than some other people's best efforts to contribute here: they're full of great advice, excellent info, and, frankly, they recap some of the lessons I've had to learn about contractors. I haven't dealt with any of the people he talks about, but I've been burned by contractors before; if I'd read what he's just covered here 10 years ago and followed that advice, I'd have avoided losing, oh, 20 grand over time. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18966|18867|2008-11-23 18:12:41|Tom Mann|Re: Peter Wiley's comments|Yep the time lines are very doable. I know I am probably considerd a slow arse builder 3 years this month and still not finished but I am building as a hobby that and I have done lots of other projectes inbetween. Pretty much a weekender when time , $ ,and motivation allows. Tom On 11/22/08, kingsknight4life wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell for a > > gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for detailing and > 100 for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me. For > what its worth I kept track of the hours that I paid Brent for > when he detailed my first hull. The total hours were 129 and that was > all stainless detailing (bowroller and railings were partially done) > and I had lots. He also welded and installed engine mounts, > compression posts, cut out portlights/windows, bulkhead tabs,enclosed > the ballast and many other things. His estimates are pretty accurate. > He didn't charge me for the times I dragged him to the scrap > yards "hunting" for parts, travel time or anytime that he wasn't > actually working. I can also attest that he works damn hard. In fact > if you can, have all your pieces built before hand as you can't grind > fast enough to keep up. lol > > This is NOT to say that any other builders don't work hard or as hard > (not by ANY means), I just know that sometimes Brent's estimates ie. > timelines, seem "too good to be true" or maybe err on the optimistic > side. They are pretty much bang on at least as far as detailing goes, > from my first hand experience. I'm sure building a boat this way puts > you years ahead for guys building frames. > As far as people taking years to complete Brent boats I have No doubt > that that is true. That comes down to MANY factors ranging from free > time,individual skill levels, money, level of finish desired, > complexity, materials availability, indecisiveness etc. All of those > variables are present in any project whether its a boat or anything > else for that matter and have no reflection on the design. > Rowland > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18967|18947|2008-11-23 18:13:10|Mall family|Re: Coating a Cast Iron Keel|On my 23` westerly i sanded the cast iron bilge keels off with flap discs on a warm day or two, then put on the recommended 5 coats of Primocon , then marine ( blakes ) antifouling : took the boat out of loch ness last week after 3 years , slight pimpling of rust is all , but the anti foul is almost gone . Same with the prop, still perfick on there . jim , Diadem On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 3:24 AM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 06:18:41PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > I've pulled the cast iron retractable keel off my Etap 26, probably for > the > > first time in 24 years. The very top portion never goes in the water and > is > > still painted. The next level down had 1/4" of rust on both sides, where > it > > is always in the water, but out of sight in the keel trunk. The bottom > half > > was always wet but got bottom painted, and has some large rusting patches > > > with no paint. > > > > It will be sandblasted clean, then heated to at least 250 degrees to > drive > > out the water from the porous cast iron. I know this is necessary, I once > > > encapsulated a Catalina 22 swing keel, and couldn't get the epoxy to cure > > > properly until I heated to 180 degrees for 10 days! > > > > So what should I be priming and painting this thing with? > > On a 16' Rebel's swing keel, I chipped off all the rust and hit the > surface really hard with a 7" sanding disc, then used Interprotect 2000 > - a guy in the boatyard was redoing his blistered fiberglass hull and > had about half a gallon left over, so I gave him a few bucks for it. > Then I put the antifouling right over it. It held up perfectly for as > long as I owned the boat. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET* > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 18968|18914|2008-11-23 18:13:51|Paul Wilson|Re: Building masts?|Another viewpoint on steel prices.. http://www.meps.co.uk/viewpoint10-08.htm This table shows historic prices in tabular form. http://www.meps.co.uk/allproducts%20steel%20price.htm Interesting at the spread in prices depending on where you live. It looks like if you want to get a proper price forecast you have to subscribe to their site and it's only 130 British pounds. :). Who's first? Paul Here is a steel price chart. http://www.ttiinc.com/object/ME_Materials_Steel It's a pretty scary picture but you can see that recently the price has crashed. There is much speculation on which way the steel prices will go... http://news.mining.com/?s=steel+price Some think that the price may stay low through 2009 but I wouldn't bet on the current low (lower?) price lasting. The global slowdown and market craziness has made all commodities crash to a point that manufacturers aren't making a profit. The low price of oil probably won't last for the same reason. Who is going to produce something if it's costing them money or they can sell it for more at a later date? Global production will probably be cut back until the price goes high again. My two cents :). http://www.bworld.com.ph/BW112208/content.php?id=051 Is the wide difference in quotes for anything metal based on whether it is old or new stock? Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building masts? Victor bough the steel for a 36 two summers ago for $9500. I think a comparison of the current price to that price would be a good indicator. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > After hearing people saying that the price of steel is so high , that > > one may as well go for aluminium pipe. So yeaterday I checke dout th > > epi rice of a 20 ft length of aly pipe . Holy shit! over $2,000 for a > > 20 ft length! So much for that idea. > > > Brent, > have you priced out the steel lately? I was wondering what sail track > goes for, last timeI chcked was on the WEst marine website and it was > redonkulously high! > Rowland > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1803 - Release Date: 11/22/2008 10:34 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1803 - Release Date: 11/22/2008 10:34 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18969|18961|2008-11-23 18:14:12|mark hamill|Re: Peter Wiley's comments (edit)|With regard to timelines on any project a skilled practioner in any field is obviously going to be much faster than an amateur. Reminds me of the time I decided to drywall a large space. I bought the tools and rented the lift and started with the ceiling which was 2 layers of type x 5/8" fireboard. After a week and a half and the realization that at this rate it would take a month and half for me to finish I hired drywallers to finish it---took them 5 days or less. They were amazing to watch. They Knew exactly what to do and how to do it quickly. Not me though. Mark| 18970|18961|2008-11-23 18:14:26|brentswain38|Re: Peter Wiley's comments (edit)|If you put a wheelhouse on a Gazelle, and are woried about weight, then doing it in aluminium would be less weight than the deck you take out to do it. You could also make the trunk cabin top and possibly the sides of aluminium , putting you ahead as far as weight is concerned.Gazewlle was designed with florida climes in mind. Different lattitudes have different priorities. When you decide to build a 50's design there is no law that says you have to use 50's technologhies or methods. Gazelle owners are much happier thasn Witch owners . It takes a 40 ft Colvin to get the interior space of a normal 36 footer.The wheelhouse gives it closer to the interior space of a normal 40 footer. Brent Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell for a > > > gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for detailing > and > > 100 for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me." > > For what its worth I kept track of the hours that I paid Brent for > when he detailed my first hull. The total hours were 129 and that was > all stainless detailing (bowroller and railings were partially done) > and I had lots. He also welded and installed engine mounts, > compression posts, cut out portlights/windows, bulkhead tabs,enclosed > the ballast and many other things. His estimates are pretty > accurate. He didn't charge me for the times I dragged him to the > scrap yards "hunting" for parts, travel time or anytime that he > wasn't actually working. I can also attest that he works damn hard. > In fact if you can, have all your pieces built before hand, as you > can't grind fast enough to keep up. lol > > This is NOT to say that any other builders don't work hard or as hard > (not by ANY means), I just know that sometimes Brent's estimates ie. > timelines, seem "too good to be true" or maybe err on the optimistic > side. They are pretty much bang on at least as far as detailing goes, > from my first hand experience. I'm sure building a boat this way puts > you years ahead of people building frames. As far as people taking > years to complete Brent boats I have NO doubt that that is true. That > comes down to MANY factors ranging from free time,individual skill > levels, money, level of finish desired, complexity, materials > availability, indecisiveness etc. All of those variables are present > in any project whether its a boat or anything else for that matter > and have no reflection on the design. > > Rowland > > > | 18971|18914|2008-11-23 18:14:32|brentswain38|Re: Building masts?|Victor said he couldn't find the receipts for the 6 inch steel mast I built him last summer , but he believed that the price for the two 24 ft 6 inch OD tubing was around $350 to $400 last summer, at the peak of steel prices. One can get a head start on making the bits and pieces that make up the mast.I'm hoping to soon post a list under "Advance Detailing' of all the bits and pieces one can make in advance , before starting the hull. The difference in weight between the steel mast and the aluminium 6 inch sch 40 tubing with 11 guage wall, is only roughly a pound a foot, or 46 lbs, centred halfway up, not a huge difference. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Here is a steel price chart. > http://www.ttiinc.com/object/ME_Materials_Steel It's a pretty scary picture > but you can see that recently the price has crashed. > > There is much speculation on which way the steel prices will go... > http://news.mining.com/?s=steel+price > > Some think that the price may stay low through 2009 but I wouldn't bet on > the current low (lower?) price lasting. The global slowdown and market > craziness has made all commodities crash to a point that manufacturers > aren't making a profit. The low price of oil probably won't last for the > same reason. Who is going to produce something if it's costing them money > or they can sell it for more at a later date? Global production will > probably be cut back until the price goes high again. My two cents :). > > http://www.bworld.com.ph/BW112208/content.php?id=051 > > Is the wide difference in quotes for anything metal based on whether it is > old or new stock? > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:58 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building masts? > > Victor bough the steel for a 36 two summers ago for $9500. I think a > comparison of the current price to that price would be a good indicator. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > After hearing people saying that the price of steel is so high , that > > > one may as well go for aluminium pipe. So yeaterday I checke dout th > > > epi rice of a 20 ft length of aly pipe . Holy shit! over $2,000 for a > > > 20 ft length! So much for that idea. > > > > > Brent, > > have you priced out the steel lately? I was wondering what sail track > > goes for, last timeI chcked was on the WEst marine website and it was > > redonkulously high! > > Rowland > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1803 - Release Date: 11/22/2008 > 10:34 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18972|18947|2008-11-23 18:14:43|brentswain38|Re: Coating a Cast Iron Keel|A friend used that International "Interprotect 2000E that they developed to stop osmosis on fibreglass boats, in marginal conditions . It stuck like shit to a blanket and remained perfect for years afterward. Brent In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I've pulled the cast iron retractable keel off my Etap 26, probably for the > first time in 24 years. The very top portion never goes in the water and is > still painted. The next level down had 1/4" of rust on both sides, where it > is always in the water, but out of sight in the keel trunk. The bottom half > was always wet but got bottom painted, and has some large rusting patches > with no paint. > > It will be sandblasted clean, then heated to at least 250 degrees to drive > out the water from the porous cast iron. I know this is necessary, I once > encapsulated a Catalina 22 swing keel, and couldn't get the epoxy to cure > properly until I heated to 180 degrees for 10 days! > > So what should I be priming and painting this thing with? > > Gary H. Lucas > | 18973|18961|2008-11-24 15:17:36|brentswain38|Re: Peter Wiley's comments (edit)|Years ago one of my 36 footers left Cabo San Lucas , bound for Hawaii at the same time as a Gazzelle . The 36 covered the first 1076 miles in ten days, then broke the top third of his mast off, due to a fitting I'd warned him about , but which he did nothing about . With the top third of his mast gone , he still beat the Gazzelle into Hilo by several days. Whatever you numbers may say , the proof is in the outcome. My 36 footers have consistently beat beneteaus of the same size , despite being far more heavily loaded, and have beat C&C boats of the same size , going to windward in 12 knots of wind. Defys logic, but whatever works , works. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > If you put a wheelhouse on a Gazelle, and are woried about weight, > then doing it in aluminium would be less weight than the deck you take > out to do it. You could also make the trunk cabin top and possibly the > sides of aluminium , putting you ahead as far as weight is > concerned.Gazewlle was designed with florida climes in mind. Different > lattitudes have different priorities. When you decide to build a 50's > design there is no law that says you have to use 50's technologhies or > methods. > Gazelle owners are much happier thasn Witch owners . It takes a 40 ft > Colvin to get the interior space of a normal 36 footer.The wheelhouse > gives it closer to the interior space of a normal 40 footer. > Brent > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell for a > > > > gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for detailing > > and > > > 100 for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me." > > > > For what its worth I kept track of the hours that I paid Brent for > > when he detailed my first hull. The total hours were 129 and that was > > all stainless detailing (bowroller and railings were partially done) > > and I had lots. He also welded and installed engine mounts, > > compression posts, cut out portlights/windows, bulkhead tabs,enclosed > > the ballast and many other things. His estimates are pretty > > accurate. He didn't charge me for the times I dragged him to the > > scrap yards "hunting" for parts, travel time or anytime that he > > wasn't actually working. I can also attest that he works damn hard. > > In fact if you can, have all your pieces built before hand, as you > > can't grind fast enough to keep up. lol > > > > This is NOT to say that any other builders don't work hard or as hard > > (not by ANY means), I just know that sometimes Brent's estimates ie. > > timelines, seem "too good to be true" or maybe err on the optimistic > > side. They are pretty much bang on at least as far as detailing goes, > > from my first hand experience. I'm sure building a boat this way puts > > you years ahead of people building frames. As far as people taking > > years to complete Brent boats I have NO doubt that that is true. That > > comes down to MANY factors ranging from free time,individual skill > > levels, money, level of finish desired, complexity, materials > > availability, indecisiveness etc. All of those variables are present > > in any project whether its a boat or anything else for that matter > > and have no reflection on the design. > > > Rowland > > > > > > | 18974|18946|2008-11-24 15:21:37|brentswain38|Re: Brent's postings|When you are checking a potential builder's references , skip the touchy feely stuff, and ask real questions based on the list of Common screwups I gave. Questions like "How many pintles does your trimtab have ." Two is not enough, regardless of whether anyone has got away with two. " Because someone got away with something ,that doesn't make it a good idea. Ask whether a ten year old can pull the trimtab out by grabbing it in the middle and giving it a good pull. Ask what they have for leading edges on their keels . Ask how hard it was to convince the builder to do things properly, in reference to the posting "Common screwups. " Ask what sort of support their twin keels have . 4inch by 1/2 inch flatbar on edge is not enough. Ask if their tankage is in the centreline, a space that is not much use for anything else, or if it is higher up, in places that are far more useful for other storage, and where it doesn't add any structural strength to twin keels. Go down the list of common screwups and ask all relevant questions, with the list as your guide. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > The screwup warnings have been among the most informative posts recently. Most of them have been copied into my Origami-to-keep folder. >   > Wally Paine > > --- On Sun, 23/11/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's postings > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, 23 November, 2008, 3:53 AM > > > > > > > I got backstabbed major in the building and design field and had to > respond . Done with that now, unless someone want to resurect it. The > screwup warnings were long overdue. Hope they save you guys from some > pitfalls > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > I hate to ask, but has something bad happened in your life? You > post a lot > > more now, and it seems to be of the bashing variety more than the > helpful > > guy you have always been. To a new reader of this group you might > come off > > as the kind people we all try to avoid, when I know that is not the > case. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18975|18867|2008-11-24 15:21:55|Barney|Re: Peter Wiley's comments|Hello again, Is there a reason that origami boats have to go stem to stern with a single sheet though? Wouldn't the same concepts apply if you staggered the plates? You wouldn't have to split the boat in two either or otherwise do a weld around the boats middle which might create a point of weakness. Thanks for any comments... B On Sun, 2008-11-23 at 05:09 -0700, J Fisher wrote: > I think Brents point has always been that as the boats get bigger, you > just > don't have a good way to handle the plates any more. If you had a full > sized ship yard maybe, but not for the home builder. Think the concept > scales, but eventually they parts are just too big to handle. > > Heck even big ships are built in small parts, then assembled. I have > toured > a couple of shipyards in South Korea including Hyuandai Heavy > Industries. > They build the ship from manageable sized parts into assemblies, then > assemble the assemblies. Pretty amazing to see. If I remember right, > they > build the bow and stern separate, then the center section in ~100 foot > sections. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Barney > Date: 11/22/2008 6:46:50 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Peter Wiley's comments > > For the life of me I can't see why there would be design sacrifices in > doing a bigger hull in Origami but I wanted to throw it out there. The > only concern I see is weight, especially when dealing with a low > aspect > rig and shallow draft. > > The point Alex brought up also seems valid, that of a novice builder > getting a bumpy wavy hull that while functional will seriously effect > resale value. > > It often seems that CAD gets ignored along with other technological > advances due them being "newfangled" or the traditionalists feeling > that > somehow your not paying enough "penance" to get on the water. > > Barney > > On Sat, 2008-11-22 at 19:43 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell for a > > gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for detailing and > 100 > > for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > Peter, posting publicly while not in a good mood is not > recommended. > > > > > > Calling the whole Origami process a "caper" ignores the successes > > > people had with it and I think it's kind of mean-spirited, plus > > makes > > > me wonder why you reached for that ordnance without considering > > what > > > you are saying, as well as how you are saying it. > > > > > > Also, broadcasting untruths about the state of my hull (it was > well > > > more than simply tacked together during my tenure with it) really > > is > > > uncalled for and I have to question what kind of person > configures > > > conjecture as fact, then ventures further broadcast it in this > > > medium. It colours everything you say after that, it taints your > > > subsequent statements deeply. Did you visit my hull and see if > for > > > yourself? Did you ask me to what degree it was completed before > you > > > constructed your statement? Nope. For the record, it was nearly > > > completely detailed and all seams that counted were heavily > welded. > > > > > > My reasons for passing the project to Haidan, at no profit to me, > > > have no bearing on the worthiness of the origami techniques so > > don't > > > even go there unless you want to look like a complete red-herring > > > factory. > > > > > > I'm very tired of reading "My 20 years of marine engineering... > My > > > vast experience in the world of bla bla bla...my extensive > > background > > > in etc etc", then finding so many inaccuracies in their > statements, > > > as well as blatant mis-truths and sometimes mean-spirited jibes at > > me > > > or others personally. Where is this vitriol coming from? > > > > > > By the way, the concave curvature in the Witch's bow you > mentioned > > > did nothing but look like Colvin's attempt to copy a clipper ship > > bow > > > onto a little boat, and worse, it removed bouyancy precisely from > a > > > place where it was needed for such a small steel vessel where > > weight > > > in the ends requires fuller sections. It resulted in a hull which > > > did not lift to waves but rather plowed/pile-drived through them > > like > > > a submarine. "Pretty" does not always equal survival, though it > > looks > > > nice on paper or at the dock I guess. > > > > > > And the floors Peter mentioned are only located as webs across > the > > > keel tops. There are four of them, and it makes the twin keel > > > configuration not only possible, but very strong. Peter made it > > sound > > > as if the whole hull is filled up again with framing, and this is > > > simply not true (again, DO go take a walk inside one and have a > > look > > > for yourself). > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from > my > > > > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > > > > > > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes > > origami > > > hulls. > > > > > > > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that > > can't > > > be > > > > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > > > > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done > > if > > > you > > > > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the > > > underwater > > > > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > > > > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. > The > > > > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have > > is > > > a > > > > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst > > and > > > > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine > > > engineering > > > > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there > is > > > never > > > > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > > > > > > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you > compromise > > > hull > > > > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull > > > *skin* > > > > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from > > people > > > > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing > away > > > any > > > > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his > > after > > > > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% > > of > > > > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > > > > > > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not > in > > > fact > > > > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > > > > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > > > > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and > > then > > > you > > > > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like > > > everywhere > > > > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an > > > example, > > > > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > > > > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have > > found > > > it > > > > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion > > and > > > I'm > > > > LAZY. > > > > > > > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom > > does > > > for > > > > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot > of > > > steel > > > > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. > Anyway, > > > > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you > go > > to > > > > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing > > floors > > > to > > > > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the > keels > > > > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. > > I've > > > > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck > off > > of > > > > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of > the > > > keel > > > > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another > > (MISTRESS > > > > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia > > > coast. > > > > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the > Great > > > > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > > > > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger > > than > > > > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have > > > frameless > > > > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine > > vessel > > > > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 > > years > > > > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a > big > > > dent > > > > cut out. > > > > > > > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's > Gazelle, > > as > > > > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no > engine) > > it > > > > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched > 38' > > > > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. > > Approx > > > 1 > > > > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same > > > interior > > > > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, > > > Tom's > > > > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > > > > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative > > mass > > > > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of > > material. > > > > Mass doesn't lie. > > > > > > > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of > > Tom's > > > > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set > of > > > > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > > > > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for > a > > > lot > > > > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the > > designer's > > > > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull > > > that's > > > > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You > also > > > > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you > > care > > > > about resale. > > > > > > > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you > get > > > > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set > of > > > > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler > > that > > > I > > > > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > > > > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > > > > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think > again. > > I > > > > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if > > it > > > is > > > > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > > > > > > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it > > won't > > > > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the > hull > > > > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel > > 50' > > > > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can > > use > > > > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller > > > origami > > > > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to > be > > > more > > > > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld > plates > > > > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get > > pretty > > > > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, > > you'll > > > > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their > > curved > > > > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate > but > > > then > > > > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > > > > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam > > welds > > > > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the > hull > > > > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed > > hull > > > > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre > seam? > > I > > > > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they > > never > > > got > > > > to that bit. > > > > > > > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of > > all > > > > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > > > > > > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > > > > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have > > numbers > > > > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking > > > here! > > > > > > > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a > > few > > > hulls > > > > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could > > > likely get > > > > > some hands on measurements. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods > are > > > 1930's > > > > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and > > > material, > > > > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his > > > answer is > > > > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of > > one > > > of > > > > > > those > > > > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another > matter. > > > There's > > > > > > a > > > > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe > 20% > > > of it. > > > > > > By > > > > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much > time > > or > > > > > > money, > > > > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than > > > otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but > he > > > does > > > > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and > > > other > > > > > > sites > > > > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question > > but > > > not > > > > > > quite. > > > > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade > > away > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile > or > > > not, nor > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a > > perfect > > > > > > cruising > > > > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have > > > different > > > > > > needs > > > > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger > hulls > > of > > > > > > Colvin's. > > > > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which > > are > > > at 48' > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate > > for > > > this > > > > > > type > > > > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall > > hull > > > weight > > > > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very > important > > > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 18976|18914|2008-11-24 15:22:12|James Pronk|Re: Building masts?|When the price of steel was going up my steel supplier raised the price of the steel on the rack, They did not wait till all the steel that was bought at a lower price was sold before they raised the price. I would call around and see if you can find a better price. With the price of fuel coming down shipping should be less as well, James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > Problem with some of the steel suppliers is they were buying at high prices > then the bottom fell out. They got stuck with the high priced inventory > since the change happened so fast. I have heard this from several vendors > on other metal products recently. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: kingsknight4life > Date: 11/21/2008 5:48:08 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building masts? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > Yep price of aluminum is still pretty high. Last week I got 4 sheets > of > > treadbright for an aluminum catle trailer, price was $1475 for 488 > Lbs. > > Price of steel is comming down but its slow doing it. > > Tom > >Funny how prices skyrocket when there's a "chance" of increased demand > or perceived shortage but come down slowly? lol Oil prices are probably > the worst for this, eg. offshore oil platforms MIGHT be affected by > huricanes in the gulf so prices at thte pump jump 10 cents/litre but > when they survive storms unscathed or the storms by pass the platforms > completely the decrease takes months? HMMM! > rowland > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18977|18947|2008-11-24 15:22:18|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Coating a Cast Iron Keel|Brent, That's what I used on the C22 keel. However I sold the boat before I ever got it in the water because I lost my job. So I don't know how it worked! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Coating a Cast Iron Keel A friend used that International "Interprotect 2000E that they developed to stop osmosis on fibreglass boats, in marginal conditions . It stuck like shit to a blanket and remained perfect for years afterward. Brent In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I've pulled the cast iron retractable keel off my Etap 26, probably for the > first time in 24 years. The very top portion never goes in the water and is > still painted. The next level down had 1/4" of rust on both sides, where it > is always in the water, but out of sight in the keel trunk. The bottom half > was always wet but got bottom painted, and has some large rusting patches > with no paint. > > It will be sandblasted clean, then heated to at least 250 degrees to drive > out the water from the porous cast iron. I know this is necessary, I once > encapsulated a Catalina 22 swing keel, and couldn't get the epoxy to cure > properly until I heated to 180 degrees for 10 days! > > So what should I be priming and painting this thing with? > > Gary H. Lucas > | 18978|18978|2008-11-24 17:42:47|brentswain38|Advancd detailing|For those who are not ready to start a hull , but crave a sense of progress , here is a list of the things you can do in advance, before starting the hull and before needing a lot of cash and a building site. Having these done in advance will considerably reduce the time in the yard. Bow Roller Nose cone chocks mooring bitts anchor winch padeyes cleats forehatch, hinges ,and hatch forehatch tiedown gussets mast step handrails stanchions bow pulpit chainplates mast detailing midshop lifting eye winch bases main hatch, hinges, and latch self steering rudder fittings wood stove chimney and ss deck plate You can also scrounge a lot of the rest of the gear you need ,whenever it comes up super cheap. If it is not exactly what you want take what you can use, and change it later. With the price of scrap stainless dropping , putting this off until later may result in your paying far more for the materials. Brent| 18979|18914|2008-11-24 17:43:26|brentswain38|Re: Building masts?|Now they are worried about deflation. Why? When prices are dropping , people will put of buying anything , while waiting for the price to drop. All economic activity stops cold ,so the deflation gets a snowball effect. I'm in no hurry to buy anything while they hold prices high . Payback for their past practises. We are calling the shots now. When I built my boat the economy was slow and they would do stuff just to keep the shop open. To bend up a cockpit well cost ten dollars. A few months later, when things were busier, a client was quoted $70 to do the same job. We cut and welded it up for less. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > When the price of steel was going up my steel supplier raised the > price of the steel on the rack, They did not wait till all the steel > that was bought at a lower price was sold before they raised the > price. I would call around and see if you can find a better price. > With the price of fuel coming down shipping should be less as well, > James. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > > > Problem with some of the steel suppliers is they were buying at > high prices > > then the bottom fell out. They got stuck with the high priced > inventory > > since the change happened so fast. I have heard this from several > vendors > > on other metal products recently. > > > > John > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: kingsknight4life > > Date: 11/21/2008 5:48:08 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building masts? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > > > > > Yep price of aluminum is still pretty high. Last week I got 4 > sheets > > of > > > treadbright for an aluminum catle trailer, price was $1475 for > 488 > > Lbs. > > > Price of steel is comming down but its slow doing it. > > > Tom > > >Funny how prices skyrocket when there's a "chance" of increased > demand > > or perceived shortage but come down slowly? lol Oil prices are > probably > > the worst for this, eg. offshore oil platforms MIGHT be affected by > > huricanes in the gulf so prices at thte pump jump 10 cents/litre > but > > when they survive storms unscathed or the storms by pass the > platforms > > completely the decrease takes months? HMMM! > > rowland > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 18980|18867|2008-11-24 17:43:51|brentswain38|Re: Peter Wiley's comments|I have used 20 ft plates when they were the only ones available. I used a 20 and an 8 on my 31. It is tricky getting the midship seam invisible tho. You put a 45 degre bevel on the inside plates' edges, then tack several wide pieces of plate on edge across the seam to keep it straight while welding. Then you do 2 inch welds with 1/8th 7024 on the inside , letting each cool before putting a weld next to it. After the hull is up, you slightly goudge the outside of the weld out till you hit solid metal, with a 1/8th inch grinding disc. Then you do very light , cool uphand welds with 1/8th inch 6011 , again doing only 2 inches at a time, and letting each cool before putting a weld next to it. Best done amidships where there is no conic curve, and the seam is only in the topside plate . Keep a checking while welding to make sure it is not distorting . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney wrote: > > Hello again, > > Is there a reason that origami boats have to go stem to stern with a > single sheet though? Wouldn't the same concepts apply if you staggered > the plates? You wouldn't have to split the boat in two either or > otherwise do a weld around the boats middle which might create a point > of weakness. > > Thanks for any comments... > > B > > On Sun, 2008-11-23 at 05:09 -0700, J Fisher wrote: > > I think Brents point has always been that as the boats get bigger, you > > just > > don't have a good way to handle the plates any more. If you had a full > > sized ship yard maybe, but not for the home builder. Think the concept > > scales, but eventually they parts are just too big to handle. > > > > Heck even big ships are built in small parts, then assembled. I have > > toured > > a couple of shipyards in South Korea including Hyuandai Heavy > > Industries. > > They build the ship from manageable sized parts into assemblies, then > > assemble the assemblies. Pretty amazing to see. If I remember right, > > they > > build the bow and stern separate, then the center section in ~100 foot > > sections. > > > > John > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Barney > > Date: 11/22/2008 6:46:50 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Peter Wiley's comments > > > > For the life of me I can't see why there would be design sacrifices in > > doing a bigger hull in Origami but I wanted to throw it out there. The > > only concern I see is weight, especially when dealing with a low > > aspect > > rig and shallow draft. > > > > The point Alex brought up also seems valid, that of a novice builder > > getting a bumpy wavy hull that while functional will seriously effect > > resale value. > > > > It often seems that CAD gets ignored along with other technological > > advances due them being "newfangled" or the traditionalists feeling > > that > > somehow your not paying enough "penance" to get on the water. > > > > Barney > > > > On Sat, 2008-11-22 at 19:43 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell for a > > > gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for detailing and > > 100 > > > for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > > > Peter, posting publicly while not in a good mood is not > > recommended. > > > > > > > > Calling the whole Origami process a "caper" ignores the successes > > > > people had with it and I think it's kind of mean-spirited, plus > > > makes > > > > me wonder why you reached for that ordnance without considering > > > what > > > > you are saying, as well as how you are saying it. > > > > > > > > Also, broadcasting untruths about the state of my hull (it was > > well > > > > more than simply tacked together during my tenure with it) really > > > is > > > > uncalled for and I have to question what kind of person > > configures > > > > conjecture as fact, then ventures further broadcast it in this > > > > medium. It colours everything you say after that, it taints your > > > > subsequent statements deeply. Did you visit my hull and see if > > for > > > > yourself? Did you ask me to what degree it was completed before > > you > > > > constructed your statement? Nope. For the record, it was nearly > > > > completely detailed and all seams that counted were heavily > > welded. > > > > > > > > My reasons for passing the project to Haidan, at no profit to me, > > > > have no bearing on the worthiness of the origami techniques so > > > don't > > > > even go there unless you want to look like a complete red- herring > > > > factory. > > > > > > > > I'm very tired of reading "My 20 years of marine engineering... > > My > > > > vast experience in the world of bla bla bla...my extensive > > > background > > > > in etc etc", then finding so many inaccuracies in their > > statements, > > > > as well as blatant mis-truths and sometimes mean-spirited jibes at > > > me > > > > or others personally. Where is this vitriol coming from? > > > > > > > > By the way, the concave curvature in the Witch's bow you > > mentioned > > > > did nothing but look like Colvin's attempt to copy a clipper ship > > > bow > > > > onto a little boat, and worse, it removed bouyancy precisely from > > a > > > > place where it was needed for such a small steel vessel where > > > weight > > > > in the ends requires fuller sections. It resulted in a hull which > > > > did not lift to waves but rather plowed/pile-drived through them > > > like > > > > a submarine. "Pretty" does not always equal survival, though it > > > looks > > > > nice on paper or at the dock I guess. > > > > > > > > And the floors Peter mentioned are only located as webs across > > the > > > > keel tops. There are four of them, and it makes the twin keel > > > > configuration not only possible, but very strong. Peter made it > > > sound > > > > as if the whole hull is filled up again with framing, and this is > > > > simply not true (again, DO go take a walk inside one and have a > > > look > > > > for yourself). > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I'm not in a real good mood because I've been working away from > > my > > > > > home base for 3 months now and I'm sick of it, so be warned.... > > > > > > > > > > Brent's reply demonstrates one thing only. Brent only likes > > > origami > > > > hulls. > > > > > > > > > > The fact is, Tom's designs have some quite subtle lines that > > > can't > > > > be > > > > > reproduced by origami techniques (unless you add so many extra > > > > > cuts/folds as to make it complex; probably anything can be done > > > if > > > > you > > > > > try hard enough). There's concave compound curvature in the > > > > underwater > > > > > section of a Witch bow, for example. Brent either doesn't care, > > > > > doesn't know or claims that the lines aren't important anyway. > > The > > > > > problem I have with this approach is, it's a classic 'all I have > > > is > > > > a > > > > > hammer, therefore everything is a nail'. It's bullshit at worst > > > and > > > > > limited vision at best. I spent nearly 20 years in marine > > > > engineering > > > > > R&D and there is never only one way to do anything, and there > > is > > > > never > > > > > one technique that suits all circumstances. > > > > > > > > > > An issue I have with this whole origami caper is, you > > compromise > > > > hull > > > > > shape and plate thickness for the technique. It does get a hull > > > > *skin* > > > > > together faster, but that's ALL. I have seen no evidence from > > > people > > > > > here that it actually gets a boat into the water and sailing > > away > > > > any > > > > > faster. In fact Alex never managed to get anything done on his > > > after > > > > > Brent tack welded the shell together. The hull is only about 20% > > > of > > > > > the total cost and probably not much more in total effort. > > > > > > > > > > Brent's designs (and I guess other origami ones) are also not > > in > > > > fact > > > > > frameless at all. He has just as much stiffening frames in the > > > > > deckhead as Tom's designs do. He has to add longitudinals before > > > > > welding the shells and then add floors inside afterwards, and > > > then > > > > you > > > > > STILL have to weld a pile of cleats, brackets and the like > > > > everywhere > > > > > to attach the interior. Look at the pix of 'Moonflower' as an > > > > example, > > > > > or Alex's DVD set (which I'd recommend you get if you haven't > > > > > already). By the time you've finished this, you may well have > > > found > > > > it > > > > > faster and easier to just build frames. That was my conclusion > > > and > > > > I'm > > > > > LAZY. > > > > > > > > > > Brent's 36 footer specifies hull plating 25% thicker than Tom > > > does > > > > for > > > > > the same displacement. Arguably 50% thicker - there are a lot > > of > > > > steel > > > > > hulls with 3mm plate sailing around. Myself, I'd use 4mm. > > Anyway, > > > > > that's an awful lot of framing material accounted for when you > > go > > > to > > > > > 5mm or 6mm hull plate. Unless you add the heavy reinforcing > > > floors > > > > to > > > > > Brent's hulls you still have structural weaknesses where the > > keels > > > > > attach to the hull plate - see Brent's recent posts about this. > > > I've > > > > > corresponded with the owner of a Colvin Witch who hit a wreck > > off > > > of > > > > > East London in SA - he slid straight over the top because of > > the > > > > keel > > > > > shape (not to mention that it's 8"x1" steel bar). Another > > > (MISTRESS > > > > > QUICKLY) was abandoned at sea and washed up on the Nova Scotia > > > > coast. > > > > > Dented hull but intact. Yet another ran on a rock bar in the > > Great > > > > > Lakes and was pulled off with nothing more than scratches in the > > > > > paint. Brent has claimed in the past that frameless is stronger > > > than > > > > > framed, but this also is not so. If it were true, we'd have > > > > frameless > > > > > icebreakers as these have the most severe duty of any marine > > > vessel > > > > > and I assure you that icebreakers do have frames - I spent 11 > > > years > > > > > working on one. Every so often we'd go to dry dock and have a > > big > > > > dent > > > > > cut out. > > > > > > > > > > Brent's 36 foot design displaces 17,000+ lbs IIRC. Tom's > > Gazelle, > > > as > > > > > designed, displaces 18,000. As built (the original had no > > engine) > > > it > > > > > generally displaces 22,000. That's a 42' hull. Tom's stretched > > 38' > > > > > Witch displaces 15,200 - I have a full set of plans for one. > > > Approx > > > > 1 > > > > > tonne less than Brent's 36' design with pretty much the same > > > > interior > > > > > volume. If in fact Brent was correct about the excess material, > > > > Tom's > > > > > designs would displace a lot more than Brent's do for the same > > > > > dimensions. They don't, so unless Tom has incorporated negative > > > mass > > > > > materials, he can't possibly be using a wasteful amount of > > > material. > > > > > Mass doesn't lie. > > > > > > > > > > My advice FWIW - this is the internet - is if you like one of > > > Tom's > > > > > designs, talk to him and maybe buy the plans, or at least a set > > of > > > > > study plans. If you like an origami design, ditto. I quite like > > > > > Brent's 36' bilge keeler myself. You're setting yourself up for > > a > > > > lot > > > > > of effort trying to convert one to the other without the > > > designer's > > > > > help and assistance and at the end of it all you'll have a hull > > > > that's > > > > > neither fish nor fowl, with no support from the designer. You > > also > > > > > won't be able to claim that it's anything but a one-off, if you > > > care > > > > > about resale. > > > > > > > > > > Pardon me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but what can you > > get > > > > > from measuring hulls that you can't get for $50 by buying a set > > of > > > > > study plans? Money well spent; I have some from George Buehler > > > that > > > > I > > > > > use for decoration in my workshop. Boat porn... And if you were > > > > > thinking of building one of Tom's (or Brent's or anyone else's) > > > > > designs without paying the designer his fees - please think > > again. > > > I > > > > > for one check with the designer when looking at boats, to see if > > > it > > > > is > > > > > a licensed build, and won't buy it if it's not. > > > > > > > > > > Origami is more shape limited but the other problem IMO is it > > > won't > > > > > scale well without really big industrial equipment to do the > > hull > > > > > shells. Think how you're going to lift/move sheets of 6mm steel > > > 50' > > > > > plus long. Not a problem with conventional construction, you can > > > use > > > > > smaller sheets. You do save a lot of butt welds on the smaller > > > > origami > > > > > hulls because you can get big sheets of steel. This starts to > > be > > > > more > > > > > tricky as the hull size increases. You'll need to butt weld > > plates > > > > > together to form the flat hull halves, and unless you can get > > > pretty > > > > > close to 100% penetration on those butts while they're flat, > > > you'll > > > > > have lines of weakness when you stress the shells into their > > > curved > > > > > shapes. Perhaps adding enough longs will stiffen up the plate > > but > > > > then > > > > > you're going to need stronger gear to pull the flat plate edges > > > > > together, followed by the hull shell halves. Those centre seam > > > welds > > > > > are going to be under a lot of stress, you'd better have the > > hull > > > > > halves well restrained. How are you going to roll the completed > > > hull > > > > > over far enough off centre to weld the outside of the centre > > seam? > > > I > > > > > wondered about that on the 36' one that Alex filmed but they > > > never > > > > got > > > > > to that bit. > > > > > > > > > > Both techniques produce boats that sail well. Neither is free of > > > all > > > > > constraints. Pick one or the other and start. > > > > > > > > > > If you want to discuss stuff further, send me an email. I'm not > > > > > interested in dealing with online arguments unless they have > > > numbers > > > > > attached that can be checked. And ATM, not even then. > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter, I think I know what Tom would say too, hence me asking > > > > here! > > > > > > > > > > > > So there wouldn't be an issue with added weight? There are a > > > few > > > > hulls > > > > > > that I know of around (from Turkey to Seattle) where I could > > > > likely get > > > > > > some hands on measurements. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 01:13 +0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > You'd save a huge amount of time and money. Tom's methods > > are > > > > 1930's > > > > > > > wooden boat building methods, extremely wateful of time and > > > > material, > > > > > > > extremely labour intensive, and to no advantage. > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why don't you ask Tom directly? I think I know what his > > > > answer is > > > > > > > > going to be, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can undoubtedly get to some sort of approximation of > > > one > > > > of > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > hulls. How much trouble it's going to be is another > > matter. > > > > There's > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > lot of work in one of those boats and the hull is maybe > > 20% > > > > of it. > > > > > > > By > > > > > > > > the time you've finished, you probably won't save much > > time > > > or > > > > > > > money, > > > > > > > > and I suspect your hull plate will be way thicker than > > > > otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But - ask Tom. He doesn't really suffer fools gladly but > > he > > > > does > > > > > > > > answer questions if asked sensibly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "barnamos" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, I've been wandering the archives of this and > > > > other > > > > > > > sites > > > > > > > > > for a while and see some folks almost ask this question > > > but > > > > not > > > > > > > quite. > > > > > > > > > If I missed it please shoot me the link and I'll fade > > > away > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not want to discuss whether junks are worthwhile > > or > > > > not, nor > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > merits of high vs low aspect rigs, the concept of a > > > perfect > > > > > > > cruising > > > > > > > > > boat is as nebulous as the perfect woman. We all have > > > > different > > > > > > > needs > > > > > > > > > and aspirations - thank god! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So that said :-), my current passion are the larger > > hulls > > > of > > > > > > > Colvin's. > > > > > > > > > Specifically the Kung Futse and Luk Chin designs which > > > are > > > > at 48' > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > 54' with ample beam. Is this size of vessel a candidate > > > for > > > > this > > > > > > > type > > > > > > > > > of construction? Has anyone done this? How is overall > > > hull > > > > weight > > > > > > > > > impacted? With a low aspect rig, this is a very > > important > > > > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > | 18981|18961|2008-11-24 17:44:16|Paul Wilson|Re: Peter Wiley's comments (edit)|I met someone who was cruising on a C & C 38 from BC to Mexico and Hawaii. They said the only boat that seemed to keep up and sail as well as them on passages was a Swain 36. The C & C had an extremely small fuel tank, very small water tanks and no room for storage. Living on it would have been like camping in a tent versus having a home. Cheers, Paul Years ago one of my 36 footers left Cabo San Lucas , bound for Hawaii at the same time as a Gazzelle . The 36 covered the first 1076 miles in ten days, then broke the top third of his mast off, due to a fitting I'd warned him about , but which he did nothing about . With the top third of his mast gone , he still beat the Gazzelle into Hilo by several days. Whatever you numbers may say , the proof is in the outcome. My 36 footers have consistently beat beneteaus of the same size , despite being far more heavily loaded, and have beat C&C boats of the same size , going to windward in 12 knots of wind. Defys logic, but whatever works , works. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18982|18961|2008-11-24 17:44:23|Martin Demers|Re: Peter Wiley's comments (edit)|Hi Brent, Is your 40 foot Swain also fast? Martin. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Years ago one of my 36 footers left Cabo San Lucas , bound for > Hawaii at the same time as a Gazzelle . The 36 covered the first > 1076 miles in ten days, then broke the top third of his mast off, > due to a fitting I'd warned him about , but which he did nothing > about . With the top third of his mast gone , he still beat the > Gazzelle into Hilo by several days. > Whatever you numbers may say , the proof is in the outcome. My 36 > footers have consistently beat beneteaus of the same size , despite > being far more heavily loaded, and have beat C&C boats of the same > size , going to windward in 12 knots of wind. Defys logic, but > whatever works , works. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > If you put a wheelhouse on a Gazelle, and are woried about weight, > > then doing it in aluminium would be less weight than the deck you > take > > out to do it. You could also make the trunk cabin top and possibly > the > > sides of aluminium , putting you ahead as far as weight is > > concerned.Gazewlle was designed with florida climes in mind. > Different > > lattitudes have different priorities. When you decide to build a > 50's > > design there is no law that says you have to use 50's > technologhies or > > methods. > > Gazelle owners are much happier thasn Witch owners . It takes a 40 > ft > > Colvin to get the interior space of a normal 36 footer.The > wheelhouse > > gives it closer to the interior space of a normal 40 footer. > > Brent > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell > for a > > > > > gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for > detailing > > > and > > > > 100 for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me." > > > > > > For what its worth I kept track of the hours that I paid Brent > for > > > when he detailed my first hull. The total hours were 129 and > that was > > > all stainless detailing (bowroller and railings were partially > done) > > > and I had lots. He also welded and installed engine mounts, > > > compression posts, cut out portlights/windows, bulkhead > tabs,enclosed > > > the ballast and many other things. His estimates are pretty > > > accurate. He didn't charge me for the times I dragged him to the > > > scrap yards "hunting" for parts, travel time or anytime that he > > > wasn't actually working. I can also attest that he works damn > hard. > > > In fact if you can, have all your pieces built before hand, as > you > > > can't grind fast enough to keep up. lol > > > > > > This is NOT to say that any other builders don't work hard or as > hard > > > (not by ANY means), I just know that sometimes Brent's estimates > ie. > > > timelines, seem "too good to be true" or maybe err on the > optimistic > > > side. They are pretty much bang on at least as far as detailing > goes, > > > from my first hand experience. I'm sure building a boat this way > puts > > > you years ahead of people building frames. As far as people > taking > > > years to complete Brent boats I have NO doubt that that is true. > That > > > comes down to MANY factors ranging from free time,individual > skill > > > levels, money, level of finish desired, complexity, materials > > > availability, indecisiveness etc. All of those variables are > present > > > in any project whether its a boat or anything else for that > matter > > > and have no reflection on the design. > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > | 18983|18983|2008-11-24 17:44:27|bert andjan|Re: Hi-Tech insulating ceramics|John wrote:  "All combustion makes water vapor. Complete combustion of a hydro carbon results in CO2 and H2O, if it is incomplete you also throw in some CO and NOX. " Recently, sadly,  two college kids here in the states died in their car of carbon monoxide  poisoning using a small charcoal burner to warm up.   I believe they were camping.   Got to be so careful burning  inside a closed area.... Bert and Jan in Michigan| 18984|18984|2008-11-24 17:44:33|brentswain38|Advance detailing|Here is a list of detailing you can do well in advance of building the hull, and before needing a building site and a lot of cash. Bow Roller Nose cone chocks mooring bitts anchor winch padeyes cleats forehatch, hinges and hatch forehatch tiedown gussets mast step handrails stanchions bow pulpit chainplates mast detailing midship lifting eyes winch bases main hatch, hinges and latch self steering wood stove chimney and ss deck plate rudder fittings Rudder 5 anchors| 18985|18985|2008-11-24 21:20:20|kingsknight4life|Sail diensions for the 36?|with the standard 47 foot mast? Rollie| 18986|18983|2008-11-24 22:43:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hi-Tech insulating ceramics|On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 02:07:30PM -0800, bert andjan wrote: > John wrote:  "All combustion makes water vapor. Complete combustion of a hydro carbon > results in CO2 and H2O, if it is incomplete you also throw in some CO and > NOX. " > > Recently, sadly,  two college kids here in the states died in their car of carbon monoxide  poisoning > using a small charcoal burner to warm up.   I believe they were camping.   Got to be so careful > burning  inside a closed area.... When I was in the Army, I had the experience of doing the slow-march at a funeral of a sergeant with almost 20 years experience. We had been on a field-training exercise in the Yakima desert; since it was cold, the man had lit a Coleman lantern and zipped his (heavy military canvas) tent nice and tight... left behind a wife and a couple of kids, too, if I recall correctly. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18987|18914|2008-11-24 22:47:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Building masts?|>>>>>Now they are worried about deflation. Why? When prices are dropping , people will put off buying anything , while waiting for the price to drop. All economic activity stops cold ,so the deflation gets a snowball effect. I'm in no hurry to buy anything while they hold prices high . Payback for their past practices. We are calling the shots now. I will take a stab at it. Apologies if you don't think this has to do with boat-building...I think it does, at least indirectly :) Deflation is very rare and associated with the great depression. Prices go down, factories close down because they aren't making money, people lose jobs, there is less demand for goods because people have less money, more factories close down, more lost jobs, etc, etc. The entire economy spirals down until everything stops. Not good. Governments can fight deflation by increasing the money supply (printing money). If money supply increases faster in an economy than the growth, inflation is the result. The fed in the states has already said they would do this. The value of each dollar becomes less (there is more of it) and prices go up. Governments like to stimulate growth by dropping interest rates..cheap loans, cheap mortgages,etc. The problem now is we have extremely low interest rates but a slowing(collapsing?) economy. They can't go any lower with the interest rates to stimulate growth. The governments are spending money, trying to stimulate growth and hoping we have enough growth that the debt and increasing money supply won't matter. If it doesn't work and we end up with a slowing economy with rising interest rates you will have a bad combination. You can end up with high inflation or even hyper inflation. Remember the 18 or 20 percent interest rates? Well that is nothing compared to hyper inflation. According to Wikipedia, Zimbabwe has an inflation rate in November of 89.7 Sextillion percent. I don't even know what a sextillion is but Zimbabwe is an extreme example of a government out of control. Another example is Germany in the 1920's and 1930's. It created the scene for the Nazis to come into power and World War II. If currencies were based on gold, it would keep things in check. You can't just print more gold, you have to buy it from somebody and it's a way of keeping governments honest. Nixon got rid of the gold standard in 1971 so that he could print money and pay for the Vietnam war. You can bet on steel prices and other services getting lower, but it's just a bet. Nobody really knows and you can find lots of "experts" in disagreement. Probably deflation for a little while longer. I would tend to believe the ones that predicted this collapse before it happened and almost all of them are saying that inflation is coming. They think that American government has promised too much money to bail everyone out and will therefore be printing as fast as they can. Peter Schiff is one of these experts. He now has the two most popular finance books on Amazon. Check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjzjiUEzx1w &feature=related I really wish you were right and we were calling the shots. The more you learn about this stuff, the less in control I feel. Neither deflation or inflation is good. The little guy is going to get screwed one way or the other. Happy sailing! Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 18988|18782|2008-11-25 18:07:37|Matt|Re: How much?|Thanks for your response Brent mate. Much as i'd LOVE to build my own boat, the simple reality is that it makes more sense financially to spend that time working. I earn a good amount of money, and paying someone else to do something that would take me ten times longer is really the only option. I frequent this forum because i'm fascinated by the process and would love to be doing it myself. But it doesn't make sense, alas. I'm 6 years into my 10 year 'retire-at-age-46' plan, and on target. So i reckon it's just gonna be best to continue building my business, let my properties keep growing (no financial meltdown in my neighbourhood!) then 'sell up and sail' by coming to BC and simply hiring you to build my dream boat. So take care of yourself mate! I'll need you in good health in 2012! In the meantime i'll have to content myself with a dozen weekend sails a year in my little plywood boat on the Gippsland Lakes. Cheers all, Matt Australia --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 hours for the detailing and > 100 hours for the welding, at $30 per hour for the steel work. > Interiors depend on how expensive an interior you want . I can rough > one in on a week .Material costs depend on how good the scrounging is > in your area. Where there is an oil, pulp or sugar industry there is > usually scrap stainless. > The last 36 I tacked together and detailed took me about six weeks . > the owner did the welding. You could easily hire a welding student to > weld it up for less that I' could do it for. I have recommended that > to most owners. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > > > Hello, > > Simple question, how much would you (Brent) charge to build a twin > > keeled BS31, from buying the steel to sailing away? > > Seriously, all up, how much? > > (bear in mind, any help from me would be both infrequent and mostly > > unhelpfull.) > > Cheers, > > Matt > > Australia > > > | 18989|18782|2008-11-25 18:07:40|Matt|Re: How much?|P.S. You should put your prices up. Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 hours for the detailing and > 100 hours for the welding, at $30 per hour for the steel work. > Interiors depend on how expensive an interior you want . I can rough > one in on a week .Material costs depend on how good the scrounging is > in your area. Where there is an oil, pulp or sugar industry there is > usually scrap stainless. > The last 36 I tacked together and detailed took me about six weeks . > the owner did the welding. You could easily hire a welding student to > weld it up for less that I' could do it for. I have recommended that > to most owners. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > > > Hello, > > Simple question, how much would you (Brent) charge to build a twin > > keeled BS31, from buying the steel to sailing away? > > Seriously, all up, how much? > > (bear in mind, any help from me would be both infrequent and mostly > > unhelpfull.) > > Cheers, > > Matt > > Australia > > > | 18990|18914|2008-11-25 18:07:45|brentswain38|Re: Building masts?|Sounds like a good time for people planning a boat to buy their detail materials and steel before the new flood of newly minted cash causes inflation.China isn't buying any more scrap and recyclers are having trouble getting rid of what they have. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > >>>>>Now they are worried about deflation. Why? When prices are > dropping , people will put off buying anything , while waiting for > the price to drop. All economic activity stops cold ,so the > deflation gets a snowball effect. I'm in no hurry to buy anything > while they hold prices high . Payback for their past practices. We > are calling the shots now. > > > I will take a stab at it. Apologies if you don't think this has to do with > boat-building...I think it does, at least indirectly :) > > Deflation is very rare and associated with the great depression. Prices go > down, factories close down because they aren't making money, people lose > jobs, there is less demand for goods because people have less money, more > factories close down, more lost jobs, etc, etc. The entire economy spirals > down until everything stops. Not good. Governments can fight deflation by > increasing the money supply (printing money). If money supply increases > faster in an economy than the growth, inflation is the result. The fed in > the states has already said they would do this. The value of each dollar > becomes less (there is more of it) and prices go up. Governments like to > stimulate growth by dropping interest rates..cheap loans, cheap > mortgages,etc. The problem now is we have extremely low interest rates but > a slowing(collapsing?) economy. They can't go any lower with the interest > rates to stimulate growth. The governments are spending money, trying to > stimulate growth and hoping we have enough growth that the debt and > increasing money supply won't matter. If it doesn't work and we end up with > a slowing economy with rising interest rates you will have a bad > combination. You can end up with high inflation or even hyper inflation. > Remember the 18 or 20 percent interest rates? Well that is nothing compared > to hyper inflation. According to Wikipedia, Zimbabwe has an inflation rate > in November of 89.7 Sextillion percent. I don't even know what a sextillion > is but Zimbabwe is an extreme example of a government out of control. > Another example is Germany in the 1920's and 1930's. It created the scene > for the Nazis to come into power and World War II. If currencies were based > on gold, it would keep things in check. You can't just print more gold, you > have to buy it from somebody and it's a way of keeping governments honest. > Nixon got rid of the gold standard in 1971 so that he could print money and > pay for the Vietnam war. > > You can bet on steel prices and other services getting lower, but it's just > a bet. Nobody really knows and you can find lots of "experts" in > disagreement. Probably deflation for a little while longer. I would tend > to believe the ones that predicted this collapse before it happened and > almost all of them are saying that inflation is coming. They think that > American government has promised too much money to bail everyone out and > will therefore be printing as fast as they can. Peter Schiff is one of > these experts. He now has the two most popular finance books on Amazon. > Check this out. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjzjiUEzx1w > > &feature=related > > > I really wish you were right and we were calling the shots. The more you > learn about this stuff, the less in control I feel. Neither deflation or > inflation is good. The little guy is going to get screwed one way or the > other. > > Happy sailing! > Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18991|18985|2008-11-25 18:07:46|brentswain38|Re: Sail diensions for the 36?|I don't understand the question? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > with the standard 47 foot mast? > Rollie > | 18992|18914|2008-11-25 18:10:46|steeldetailingindia|Detailing Services @ USD 10.00 Per Hour!!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Here is a steel price chart. > http://www.ttiinc.com/object/ME_Materials_Steel It's a pretty scary picture > but you can see that recently the price has crashed. > > There is much speculation on which way the steel prices will go... > http://news.mining.com/?s=steel+price > > Some think that the price may stay low through 2009 but I wouldn't bet on > the current low (lower?) price lasting. The global slowdown and market > craziness has made all commodities crash to a point that manufacturers > aren't making a profit. The low price of oil probably won't last for the > same reason. Who is going to produce something if it's costing them money > or they can sell it for more at a later date? Global production will > probably be cut back until the price goes high again. My two cents :). > > http://www.bworld.com.ph/BW112208/content.php?id=051 > > Is the wide difference in quotes for anything metal based on whether it is > old or new stock? > > Cheers, Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:58 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building masts? > > Victor bough the steel for a 36 two summers ago for $9500. I think a > comparison of the current price to that price would be a good indicator. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "kingsknight4life" > wildcatbjj@ wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > After hearing people saying that the price of steel is so high , that > > > one may as well go for aluminium pipe. So yeaterday I checke dout th > > > epi rice of a 20 ft length of aly pipe . Holy shit! over $2,000 for a > > > 20 ft length! So much for that idea. > > > > > Brent, > > have you priced out the steel lately? I was wondering what sail track > > goes for, last timeI chcked was on the WEst marine website and it was > > redonkulously high! > > Rowland > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1803 - Release Date: 11/22/2008 > 10:34 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 18993|18993|2008-11-25 18:11:46|cf.stout|Re: Global Metals Prices|News is that the global scrap metals market has completely collapsed. This might be something to watch as an indicator of when prices on new steel stock might start to rise again (which seems inevitable). The Chinese in particular had been buying huge quantities of steel scrap for quite a while...word was that most of it was needed to make rebar for the massive amount of concrete that was being used over there. With the global economy stalled companies are walking away from their contracts to purchase scrap metal, leaving the brokers and shippers holding the bag. I was told that a certain amount of virgin steel has to be included in the melt to make rebar and this undoubtably helped raise the price over and above the demand in their manufacturing industry for virgin steel. Recently, the Chinese government announced their own "Economic Stimulus Package" which was 580 billion dollars to be directed into keeping their infrastructure build-out going. Of course, it will take a while to get that going, and the actual total amount may be something other than stated, but it is going to be huge. If/when this comes to pass it seems to me that the scrap will gradually start shipping overseas again...entities that are holding it will be anxious to get it off of their property and off their books. Here in the Pacific NW USA all of the scrap metal yards and recycling places were taking in just about anything you could haul in and paying in cash on the spot...so that stopped real fast when the credit crunch hit, as they were likely going to the bank everyday to load the till with cash, and then suddenly they couldn't ship the stuff out anymore to boot. It seems to me that when we again start seeing people hauling in junk to the local scrap metal places that will be a sure sign that prices are going to start heading back up. Any comments? /Charles| 18994|18961|2008-11-25 18:11:47|brentswain38|Re: Peter Wiley's comments (edit)|Yes, its the same hull as the 36, just scaled up Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > Is your 40 foot Swain also fast? > > > Martin. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Years ago one of my 36 footers left Cabo San Lucas , bound for > > Hawaii at the same time as a Gazzelle . The 36 covered the first > > 1076 miles in ten days, then broke the top third of his mast off, > > due to a fitting I'd warned him about , but which he did nothing > > about . With the top third of his mast gone , he still beat the > > Gazzelle into Hilo by several days. > > Whatever you numbers may say , the proof is in the outcome. My 36 > > footers have consistently beat beneteaus of the same size , despite > > being far more heavily loaded, and have beat C&C boats of the same > > size , going to windward in 12 knots of wind. Defys logic, but > > whatever works , works. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > If you put a wheelhouse on a Gazelle, and are woried about weight, > > > then doing it in aluminium would be less weight than the deck you > > take > > > out to do it. You could also make the trunk cabin top and possibly > > the > > > sides of aluminium , putting you ahead as far as weight is > > > concerned.Gazewlle was designed with florida climes in mind. > > Different > > > lattitudes have different priorities. When you decide to build a > > 50's > > > design there is no law that says you have to use 50's > > technologhies or > > > methods. > > > Gazelle owners are much happier thasn Witch owners . It takes a 40 > > ft > > > Colvin to get the interior space of a normal 36 footer.The > > wheelhouse > > > gives it closer to the interior space of a normal 40 footer. > > > Brent > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In his book Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to build the shell > > for a > > > > > > gazelle. I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 for > > detailing > > > > and > > > > > 100 for welding. Sure sounds like time and money saved,to me." > > > > > > > > For what its worth I kept track of the hours that I paid Brent > > for > > > > when he detailed my first hull. The total hours were 129 and > > that was > > > > all stainless detailing (bowroller and railings were partially > > done) > > > > and I had lots. He also welded and installed engine mounts, > > > > compression posts, cut out portlights/windows, bulkhead > > tabs,enclosed > > > > the ballast and many other things. His estimates are pretty > > > > accurate. He didn't charge me for the times I dragged him to the > > > > scrap yards "hunting" for parts, travel time or anytime that he > > > > wasn't actually working. I can also attest that he works damn > > hard. > > > > In fact if you can, have all your pieces built before hand, as > > you > > > > can't grind fast enough to keep up. lol > > > > > > > > This is NOT to say that any other builders don't work hard or as > > hard > > > > (not by ANY means), I just know that sometimes Brent's estimates > > ie. > > > > timelines, seem "too good to be true" or maybe err on the > > optimistic > > > > side. They are pretty much bang on at least as far as detailing > > goes, > > > > from my first hand experience. I'm sure building a boat this way > > puts > > > > you years ahead of people building frames. As far as people > > taking > > > > years to complete Brent boats I have NO doubt that that is true. > > That > > > > comes down to MANY factors ranging from free time,individual > > skill > > > > levels, money, level of finish desired, complexity, materials > > > > availability, indecisiveness etc. All of those variables are > > present > > > > in any project whether its a boat or anything else for that > > matter > > > > and have no reflection on the design. > > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 18995|18984|2008-11-25 18:11:52|brentswain38|Re: Advance detailing|Oops forgot. Build about 5 anchors. You can leave the shank off one or two for better stowage ,and weld then on with the alternator welder when you lose an anchor ,or when the hurricane is comming. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Here is a list of detailing you can do well in advance of building > the hull, and before needing a building site and a lot of cash. > Bow Roller > Nose cone > chocks > mooring bitts > anchor winch > padeyes > cleats > forehatch, hinges and hatch > forehatch tiedown gussets > mast step > handrails > stanchions > bow pulpit > chainplates > mast detailing > midship lifting eyes > winch bases > main hatch, hinges and latch > self steering > wood stove > chimney and ss deck plate > rudder fittings > Rudder > 5 anchors > | 18996|18985|2008-11-26 14:49:38|kingsknight4life|Re: Sail diensions for the 36?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I don't understand the question? > Brent I'm looking for sails and since now I have a little time (under statement) before I need them, I'm keeping my eye out for deals on used sails. Trouble is I don't know what size I need. Is the 36 designed to use a sail that another more common boat uses, like the 30footer was? Eg. Should I be looking for sails off of a CC38 or Pacific seacraft 36 or do I need very specific luff and leach dimensions? Rowland PS Brent did u geþ my latest e mail?| 18997|18985|2008-11-26 14:49:43|kingsknight4life|Re: Sail diensions for the 36? possible double post,|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I don't understand the question? > Brent > >Brent I know one of your boats the 30 footer I think, uses sails from another more commond boat. So when looking for sails for the 30 footer you can just buy sails that fit the "chlorox 30" and know they will work. Is the same true for the 36? Can I just buy sails that fit a pacific seacraft 36 or CC 38 for example? If so, what type of boat if not what are the dimensions that I need to be looking for when looking for used sail bargains? eg. luff, leech etc It will still be awhile before I launch (mild under statemnt) but while I have the time I want to start collecting parts and trying to find bargains.Kind of like your detailing philosophy but with after market stuff like sails, instead of with stainless bits I can build myself. I'll save the electronics for last obviously. :0 Rowland PS did u get the e-mail I sent you yesterday?| 18998|18927|2008-11-26 14:49:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 04:57:45AM -0700, J Fisher wrote: > > All combustion makes water vapor. Complete combustion of a hydro carbon > results in CO2 and H2O, if it is incomplete you also throw in some CO and > NOX. I don't remember my thermo classes all that well, but when you burn a > gallon of gas you get about 2 gallons of water, I think alcohol is slightly > better since it has less H per molecule. A fuel with lower H content should > make less water. > > C2H5OH is alcohol, propane is C3H8, so I would think that chemically alcohol > should be better. H6 vs H8, still a lot less than gas C7H14. In theory, John, you're right. In practice, it doesn't work out that way. I have yet to see a boat heated with, say, hard coal that has anything but minimal condensation, while an alcohol heater will create so much moisture that it will soak your blankets in the middle of the night (trust me on this one; you don't want to experience it yourself.) Propane is somewhere between the two: after running my stove (in the main salon) or my portable heater (aft cabin) all night, there's sweat on the painted metal surfaces, but everything else is bone-dry. I don't know what all the relevant factors are, but there are clearly more of them than just the chemical composition of the fuel. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 18999|18984|2008-11-26 14:49:54|edward_stoneuk|Re: Advance detailing anchors|Hi Brent, Do you make all the same type and weight of anchor or do you have a variety for different holding conditions? Regards, Ted| 19000|19000|2008-11-26 14:49:57|Tom|Stainless Steel|Brent When I'm out looking for stainless scrap how do I tell which grade is which? Most of the scrap that I've come across is unmarked. What grade or grades should I look for? I know that you should look for stainless that's non-magnetic but I found some that was, I guess you could say, "slightly" magnetic. The magnet wouldn't stick, but I could feel a "slight" attraction from the magnet. I was given a mix of one and a half inch and one inch stainless ball valves. Some have "316" stamped on one end, and "800 WOG" stamped on the other end, and the handles are stainless . After a Google search I came up with; Investment casting Test Pressure: Seat (air) 80 PSI Shell (Hydrostatic) 1200 PSI Pressure rating 800 PSI WOG WOG = Water - OIL - GAS ? I have other valves that are 3 piece valves and have "Worcester 730 CF8M" on them and carbon steel handles. The Worcester site wasn't very helpful, the valves are probably obsolete. I did some Google searches and came up with; CF8M 316 Stainless Steel and CF8M Stainless Steel CF8M seems to be cast stainless. How about, the body parts are CF8M cast stainless and the ball is 316 stainless? So what grade is CF8M? Yeah, I know, it's CF8M, but how does it compare to something like 316? Thanks Tom|