19001|19001|2008-11-26 14:50:03|brentswain38|Common screwups|I did a very common screwup on my fist two boats. I made access to the bins under the bunks and the floor in the form of lift hatches.This is far more work than is neccessary and makes it hard to find stuff hiding around corners, or to gain full access for maintenance . On my current boat I made the entire bunk top liftable , hinged on the outside , providing easy acess to the entire area under the bunk . Unfortunately, I used small access hatches for the floor. I recently threw out the old floor, and made the entire floor liftable, eliminating the goofy little access hatches. This made insulating the underside of the floor much easier. With a watertank down there, you simply put a piece of styrofoam down and close the lid on it. When it gets ratty , you lift the floor , take the old one out , put a new one down and close the lid . Brent| 19002|19002|2008-11-26 15:36:34|brentswain38|Detail materials for a 36|Stainless detail materials list Stanchions- 22 -3/4 or 1 inch ss stainles sch 40 pipe 30 inches long Lifelines - 78 feet of 3/4 or 1 inch sch 40 ss pipe Handrails-40 ft of 3/4 inch sch 40 pipe. 3 ft of 1/2 inch ss rod Trim ( wheelhouse & cockpit)22ft 1/2 inch ss sch 40 pipe Mooring bitts 4 1/2 ft 3 1/2 inch ss sch 40 pipe Bow roller-1/2 inch x8 inches x 36 inches ss plate Cabin supports 16 ft of 2 inch sch 40 galv pipe Nosecone 12X18 inches of 1/8th inch ss plate Mast tabernacle - 12inches by 12 inches by1/8th inch ss plate, 12x 2ft x1/4 s plate Chocks and cleats 19 ft 1/2 inch ss rod Thru hulls -4-1 1/2 inch sch 40 ss pipe , ends threaded, and 2- 3/4 ss sch 40 pipe, ends threaded. Scupper liners , padeyes , etc. 3 ft 3/8th inch ss rod Drip lips 2 ft 1/2 inch by 1/8th inch ss fb Tank fillers and vents -2- 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe ends threaded. 2- 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe ends ss, ends threaded. Sheerleg sockets . 18inches of 2 inch sch 40 ss pipe Windvane 2 ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 s pipe 3 ft 1/2 inch sss rod 2 ft 1 inch OD ss tube 3 ft 1/2 inch ss sch 40 pipe 18inches 3/4 ID ss tube Trimtab 8ft 1/2 inch ss sch 40 pipe 3 1/2 ft X 11 inches , 16 guage ss plate Brent Swain| 19003|19001|2008-11-26 15:36:40|kingsknight4life|Re: Common screwups|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > On my current boat I made the entire bunk top > liftable , hinged on the outside , providing easy acess to the entire > area under the bunk . > Brent > Brent Should the setee backs be built as one solid hinged lid too? Rowland| 19004|19004|2008-11-26 15:37:19|brentswain38|Detail materials list|I just posted the stainless detail materials list in files. Now is a good time to pick up these materials ,now that scrap yards cant get rid of their stuff. Prices should be very negotiable. For the 31 and the 40 the list is the same except for a bit more or a bit less pipe for the lifelines and handrails. I hope to have a recent price on the steel mast tubing soon. Brent| 19005|18927|2008-11-26 21:35:05|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|Hi Ben, I guess the coal fired heater had a chimney to take the combustion products including the H2O out of the cabin, whereas the alcohol and propane heaters didn't. Regards, Ted| 19006|18927|2008-11-27 17:25:47|peter_d_wiley|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 04:57:45AM -0700, J Fisher wrote: > > > > All combustion makes water vapor. Complete combustion of a hydro carbon > > results in CO2 and H2O, if it is incomplete you also throw in some CO and > > NOX. I don't remember my thermo classes all that well, but when you burn a > > gallon of gas you get about 2 gallons of water, I think alcohol is slightly > > better since it has less H per molecule. A fuel with lower H content should > > make less water. > > > > C2H5OH is alcohol, propane is C3H8, so I would think that chemically alcohol > > should be better. H6 vs H8, still a lot less than gas C7H14. > > In theory, John, you're right. In practice, it doesn't work out that > way. I have yet to see a boat heated with, say, hard coal that has > anything but minimal condensation, while an alcohol heater will create > so much moisture that it will soak your blankets in the middle of the > night (trust me on this one; you don't want to experience it yourself.) > Propane is somewhere between the two: after running my stove (in the > main salon) or my portable heater (aft cabin) all night, there's sweat > on the painted metal surfaces, but everything else is bone-dry. > > I don't know what all the relevant factors are, but there are clearly > more of them than just the chemical composition of the fuel. I would suspect that the venting is the main issue. I'll bet that nobody has an unflued coal heater burning in their cabin but they do with alcohol or propane. This is where the water vapour is coming from, unvented combustion byproducts. My house in Sydney has a big gas heater and it vents to the outside. No water vapour problems at all inside. The flue is the key more than the fuel source. PDW| 19007|19000|2008-11-27 17:25:54|brentswain38|Re: Stainless Steel|I don't know of any easy way to test the type of stainless. Some scrapyards have test kits and can tell you which is which. I assume suppliers of retail stainless may know where you find the test kits. Otherwise ,favour non magnetic and keep an eye on the valves for the first year or so ,checking them from time to time. If they give no problem in the first year, you are unlikely to have any problems. They are easy to change in the water. Just screw any kind of standpipe on to take them above the waterline, with the valve closed, push a cork all the way thru to the hull skin, then change them, before pushing the cork out from the inside. brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Brent > When I'm out looking for stainless scrap how do I tell which grade is > which? Most of the scrap that I've come across is unmarked. What grade > or grades should I look for? I know that you should look for stainless > that's non-magnetic but I found some that was, I guess you could say, > "slightly" magnetic. The magnet wouldn't stick, but I could feel a > "slight" attraction from the magnet. > > I was given a mix of one and a half inch and one inch stainless ball > valves. > Some have "316" stamped on one end, and "800 WOG" stamped on the other > end, and the handles are stainless . > After a Google search I came up with; > Investment casting > Test Pressure: Seat (air) 80 PSI > Shell (Hydrostatic) 1200 PSI > Pressure rating 800 PSI WOG > WOG = Water - OIL - GAS ? > > I have other valves that are 3 piece valves and have "Worcester 730 > CF8M" on them and carbon steel handles. > The Worcester site wasn't very helpful, the valves are probably obsolete. > I did some Google searches and came up with; > CF8M 316 Stainless Steel > and > CF8M Stainless Steel > CF8M seems to be cast stainless. > > How about, the body parts are CF8M cast stainless and the ball is 316 > stainless? > So what grade is CF8M? Yeah, I know, it's CF8M, but how does it > compare to something like 316? > > Thanks > Tom > | 19008|18927|2008-11-27 17:26:33|brentswain38|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|For a given amount of moisture in the air, the higher you raise the temperature the less the relative humidity, relative to how much it can hold, as long as you don't add more water. Warmer air can hold more moisture , so as you raise the temperature, the amount it can hold rises, so the relative humidity drops. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > I guess the coal fired heater had a chimney to take the combustion > products including the H2O out of the cabin, whereas the alcohol and > propane heaters didn't. > > Regards, > > Ted > | 19009|18993|2008-11-27 17:26:52|brentswain38|Re: Global Metals Prices|Selkirk scrap tells me they want $3.25 a pound for scrap stainless. That is what they were asking before the plunge in metal prices. Russel quoted me $840 for the materials for the mast. I guess we'll have to let them sit on it a while longer, or shop for realistic metal dealers. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cf.stout" wrote: > > News is that the global scrap metals market has completely collapsed. > This might be something to watch as an indicator of when prices on > new steel stock might start to rise again (which seems inevitable). > > The Chinese in particular had been buying huge quantities of steel > scrap for quite a while...word was that most of it was needed to make > rebar for the massive amount of concrete that was being used over > there. With the global economy stalled companies are walking away from > their contracts to purchase scrap metal, leaving the brokers and > shippers holding the bag. > > I was told that a certain amount of virgin steel has to be included in > the melt to make rebar and this undoubtably helped raise the price > over and above the demand in their manufacturing industry for virgin > steel. Recently, the Chinese government announced their own "Economic > Stimulus Package" which was 580 billion dollars to be directed into > keeping their infrastructure build-out going. Of course, it will take > a while to get that going, and the actual total amount may be > something other than stated, but it is going to be huge. > > If/when this comes to pass it seems to me that the scrap will > gradually start shipping overseas again...entities that are holding it > will be anxious to get it off of their property and off their books. > Here in the Pacific NW USA all of the scrap metal yards and recycling > places were taking in just about anything you could haul in and paying > in cash on the spot...so that stopped real fast when the credit crunch > hit, as they were likely going to the bank everyday to load the till > with cash, and then suddenly they couldn't ship the stuff out anymore > to boot. > > It seems to me that when we again start seeing people hauling in junk > to the local scrap metal places that will be a sure sign that prices > are going to start heading back up. Any comments? > > /Charles > | 19010|18985|2008-11-27 17:27:17|brentswain38|Re: Sail diensions for the 36?|For a 46 foot mast a main with a luff of 42 ft will work. A foot length of 16 ft is max, shorter will work OK with a slight loss of sail area. I'd try to get at least 12 ft or preferably better. It's no big deal to shorten the luff. Just sew the patches back on with the eyes still in them. Any headsail that fits the forestay will work. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I don't understand the question? > > Brent > I'm looking for sails and since now I have a little time (under statement) before I need them, I'm keeping my eye out for deals on used sails. Trouble is I don't know what size I need. Is the 36 designed to use a sail that another more common boat uses, like the 30footer was? Eg. Should I be looking for sails off of a CC38 or Pacific seacraft 36 or do I need very specific luff and leach dimensions? > Rowland > PS Brent did u geþ my latest e mail? > | 19011|18927|2008-11-27 17:27:43|sae140|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > I guess the coal fired heater had a chimney to take the combustion > products including the H2O out of the cabin, whereas the alcohol and > propane heaters didn't. > > Regards, > > Ted > Exactly my thoughts too. Having said that, a friend of mine used to use a portable propane heater inside the house - one of those catalytic jobs which don't have a flue. The house didn't seem damp, but catalyst or not - water HAS to be generated as a waste product of combustion ... One of the most dangerous practices I've seen lately, is guys at boot sales running small suitcase generators INSIDE their vans, as a means of keeping warm. They run quietly, and without giving off any smoke, so the idjuts think that they're safe ... Colin| 19012|18927|2008-11-27 17:28:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 09:47:32PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I guess the coal fired heater had a chimney to take the combustion > products including the H2O out of the cabin, whereas the alcohol and > propane heaters didn't. Makes sense to me, sure; that would be a large factor. Again, though, there's a very large difference between running an alcohol stove and a propane one - the former creates a *huge* amount of humidity (every bit of fiberglass in the main salon of 34' boat was dripping) whereas the latter is reasonably dry (metal and Lexan surfaces that are exposed to weather on the other side sweat; nothing else does.) Anyone who has stood next to a campfire knows this: you can feel it drying out your skin like it was beef jerky. Standing next to an alcohol stove is like getting a moisturizing treatment in a salon. :) From what I hear, pressurized alcohol stoves are a little better about this - but I have no personal experience with them, so I can't say. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19013|18782|2008-11-27 17:28:54|brentswain38|Re: How much?|Many of the people I work for can't afford to pay more, and I make all I need when I build a boat. I love working with and for the proletariat. I get a great sense of accomplishment having helped them live their dreams , long after the money is spent. Greed has killed far to many cruising dreams( and friendships) already.I have to practise what I preach. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > P.S. You should put your prices up. > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I estimate 100 hours for the shell, 100 hours for the detailing and > > 100 hours for the welding, at $30 per hour for the steel work. > > Interiors depend on how expensive an interior you want . I can rough > > one in on a week .Material costs depend on how good the scrounging is > > in your area. Where there is an oil, pulp or sugar industry there is > > usually scrap stainless. > > The last 36 I tacked together and detailed took me about six weeks . > > the owner did the welding. You could easily hire a welding student to > > weld it up for less that I' could do it for. I have recommended that > > to most owners. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > Simple question, how much would you (Brent) charge to build a twin > > > keeled BS31, from buying the steel to sailing away? > > > Seriously, all up, how much? > > > (bear in mind, any help from me would be both infrequent and mostly > > > unhelpfull.) > > > Cheers, > > > Matt > > > Australia > > > > > > | 19014|18927|2008-11-27 17:44:34|brentswain38|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|A friend made propane heaters which were above the waterline , with a chimney for the exhuast and a drain for the intake. If they went out the propane would simply drain overboard. They took their intake air from the drain and were completely sealed from the inside of the boat , taking in outside air and expelling it outside. He bought cast iron burners from the scrapyard. It only worked in port and it took a small fan to get the heat blown down to the floor, but they worked well. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 09:47:32PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > > I guess the coal fired heater had a chimney to take the combustion > > products including the H2O out of the cabin, whereas the alcohol and > > propane heaters didn't. > > Makes sense to me, sure; that would be a large factor. Again, though, > there's a very large difference between running an alcohol stove and a > propane one - the former creates a *huge* amount of humidity (every bit > of fiberglass in the main salon of 34' boat was dripping) whereas the > latter is reasonably dry (metal and Lexan surfaces that are exposed to > weather on the other side sweat; nothing else does.) > > Anyone who has stood next to a campfire knows this: you can feel it > drying out your skin like it was beef jerky. Standing next to an alcohol > stove is like getting a moisturizing treatment in a salon. :) From what > I hear, pressurized alcohol stoves are a little better about this - but > I have no personal experience with them, so I can't say. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19015|18985|2008-11-28 16:24:01|theboilerflue|Re: Sail diensions for the 36?|I just got some used sails off someone who said they got a really great deal on sails at the seattle swap meet which i believe will be in feb sometime. > I'm looking for sails and since now I have a little time (under statement) before I need them, I'm keeping my eye out for deals on used sails.| 19016|19016|2008-11-28 16:27:00|troller10|New Adventure - Pictures|Hey everyone. I just thought that I would send a link to some of the pictures of "New Adventure". A 40 ft. steel Swain that was started in October 2007, in the front yard of the house. This summer I put it on wheels and towed it down to a friends shop to work on it out of the heat, (and to actually get something done.) I moved it again just last week, since the shop needed to be cleared for another project. So, it was towed to a another friends barn, where I'll be able to work on it until I get the outside painted, (I hope). Anyway, it is slow going but it is happening. Enjoy, Brien http://www.flickr.com/photos/new_adventure/| 19017|18993|2008-11-29 22:53:59|theboilerflue|Re: Global Metals Prices|Last week i was talking to the guy who runs Walker's he said they were buying stainless at ten cents a pound! they were selling it at a buck fifty. He also said that they can't sell anything, that no one is buying anything (or selling). He said they usually sod to some place doen in Seattle but that they haven't been buying for a while now, they had to lay off all but two of their guys. They are owned by selkirk/steel pacific/harpers are they not? > Selkirk scrap tells me they want $3.25 a pound for scrap stainless. > That is what they were asking before the plunge in metal prices. > Russel quoted me $840 for the materials for the mast. I guess we'll > have to let them sit on it a while longer, or shop for realistic > metal dealers. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cf.stout" wrote: > > > > News is that the global scrap metals market has completely > collapsed. > > This might be something to watch as an indicator of when prices on > > new steel stock might start to rise again (which seems inevitable). > > > > The Chinese in particular had been buying huge quantities of steel > > scrap for quite a while...word was that most of it was needed to > make > > rebar for the massive amount of concrete that was being used over > > there. With the global economy stalled companies are walking away > from > > their contracts to purchase scrap metal, leaving the brokers and > > shippers holding the bag. > > > > I was told that a certain amount of virgin steel has to be included > in > > the melt to make rebar and this undoubtably helped raise the price > > over and above the demand in their manufacturing industry for virgin > > steel. Recently, the Chinese government announced their > own "Economic > > Stimulus Package" which was 580 billion dollars to be directed into > > keeping their infrastructure build-out going. Of course, it will > take > > a while to get that going, and the actual total amount may be > > something other than stated, but it is going to be huge. > > > > If/when this comes to pass it seems to me that the scrap will > > gradually start shipping overseas again...entities that are holding > it > > will be anxious to get it off of their property and off their books. > > Here in the Pacific NW USA all of the scrap metal yards and > recycling > > places were taking in just about anything you could haul in and > paying > > in cash on the spot...so that stopped real fast when the credit > crunch > > hit, as they were likely going to the bank everyday to load the till > > with cash, and then suddenly they couldn't ship the stuff out > anymore > > to boot. > > > > It seems to me that when we again start seeing people hauling in > junk > > to the local scrap metal places that will be a sure sign that prices > > are going to start heading back up. Any comments? > > > > /Charles > > > | 19018|19016|2008-11-29 22:54:04|cal_sailing44|Re: New Adventure - Pictures|Hi Brien great photos, looks like it is comming along well. Keep us updated Cheers Cal Australia --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > Hey everyone. I just thought that I would send a link to some of > the pictures of "New Adventure". > > A 40 ft. steel Swain that was started in October 2007, in the front > yard of the house. > > > This summer I put it on wheels and towed it down to a friends > shop to work on it out of the heat, (and to actually get something > done.) > > I moved it again just last week, since the shop needed to be cleared > for another project. > > So, it was towed to a another friends barn, where I'll be able to work > on it until I get the outside painted, (I hope). > > Anyway, it is slow going but it is happening. > > Enjoy, > > Brien > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/new_adventure/ > | 19019|18927|2008-11-29 22:54:08|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|Hi Ben, My chemistry is a bit hazy, however looking at the combustion equations and heat energy output (kJ/mol) it would appear for the same heat output the alcohol produces more water vapour (H2O)or if it is providing less heat than the propane heater observed then there will be more condensation as Brent advises. Here are the combustion equations taken off the web. Ethanol (Alcohol) C2H5OH + 3 O2 ¨ 2 CO2 + 3 H2O The heat of combustion of Ethanol is −1409 kJ/mol[15]) Propane C3H8 + 5 O2 ---> 3 CO2 + 4 H2O The heat of combustion of propane is -2,220.1 kJ/mol. Regards, Ted| 19020|19020|2008-11-29 22:54:13|Martin Demers|origami hard chine VS radius chine|HI Brent, Have you ever thought of welding a round radius chine on the inside of the hard chine of an origani boat and than cut the steel plate on the outside of the hull on the top an bottom of the hard chine to achieve a rounder hull and eliminate that hard chine. Martin.| 19021|19016|2008-11-29 22:54:22|brentswain38|Re: New Adventure - Pictures|Great photos . Nice work. Thanks for the update. I think it would be a good idea to weld a 3 inch by half inch flatbar along the bottom of that mast support to make it a T section. It looks a little thin to support the rig on a 40 footer.T sectioning it would greatly strengthen it. Overkill there wouldn't hurt anything. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > Hey everyone. I just thought that I would send a link to some of > the pictures of "New Adventure". > > A 40 ft. steel Swain that was started in October 2007, in the front > yard of the house. > > > This summer I put it on wheels and towed it down to a friends > shop to work on it out of the heat, (and to actually get something > done.) > > I moved it again just last week, since the shop needed to be cleared > for another project. > > So, it was towed to a another friends barn, where I'll be able to work > on it until I get the outside painted, (I hope). > > Anyway, it is slow going but it is happening. > > Enjoy, > > Brien > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/new_adventure/ > | 19022|18927|2008-11-30 12:08:24|Wesley Cox|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|When normalized, the heat of combustion of propane, then, is about 555 kJ/(mol h2o) and ethanol is about 470 kJ/(mol h2o), a significant difference, but not huge. ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:04 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics Hi Ben, My chemistry is a bit hazy, however looking at the combustion equations and heat energy output (kJ/mol) it would appear for the same heat output the alcohol produces more water vapour (H2O)or if it is providing less heat than the propane heater observed then there will be more condensation as Brent advises. Here are the combustion equations taken off the web. Ethanol (Alcohol) C2H5OH + 3 O2 ¨ 2 CO2 + 3 H2O The heat of combustion of Ethanol is −1409 kJ/mol[15]) Propane C3H8 + 5 O2 ---> 3 CO2 + 4 H2O The heat of combustion of propane is -2,220.1 kJ/mol. Regards, Ted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1820 - Release Date: 11/29/2008 6:52 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19023|19020|2008-11-30 12:08:27|kingsknight4life|Re: origami hard chine VS radius chine|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > > > HI Brent, > > > Have you ever thought of welding a round radius chine on the inside of the hard chine of > an origani boat and than cut the steel plate on the outside of the hull on the top an bottom > of the hard chine to achieve a rounder hull and eliminate that hard chine. > > > Martin. > martin I know its been done on origami boats before. I think there is a pic of Ian's 39ft. aluminum, bilge keeler and the chine has been rounded. I saw that boat when it was at Shelter Island in Richmond, BC, it was the first Swain boat I ever saw. Not long after it Marcel's boat passed through the yard on the way to Quebec and then we stumbled onto Gord's boat while driving to the grocery store. Pretty soon we seemed to be bumping into Swan boats everywhere.:) I think Brent would say that since the chine is below the waterline tht its not worth the extra work, so why round it off? Rowland| 19024|18993|2008-11-30 12:08:41|edward_stoneuk|Re: Global Metals Prices|On the local (UK) TV news recently there was an item about a load of beer kegs that had been dumped in a country lane. Metal beer kegs are a popular item to steal and take to a scrap yard. I guess with scrap prices fallen so it wasn't worth the risk for the scrap dealer to buy obviously stolen items. When scrap prices were high thieves were stealing aluminium road signs, several went missing on the road that I use to get to work. They have stopped stealing them now. Regards, Ted| 19025|18927|2008-11-30 12:12:46|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 01:04:45PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Hi Ben, > > My chemistry is a bit hazy, however looking at the combustion > equations and heat energy output (kJ/mol) it would appear for the > same heat output the alcohol produces more water vapour (H2O)or if it > is providing less heat than the propane heater observed then there > will be more condensation as Brent advises. > > Here are the combustion equations taken off the web. > > Ethanol (Alcohol) > C2H5OH + 3 O2 ¨ 2 CO2 + 3 H2O > The heat of combustion of Ethanol is −1409 kJ/mol[15]) > > Propane > C3H8 + 5 O2 ---> 3 CO2 + 4 H2O > The heat of combustion of propane is -2,220.1 kJ/mol. Thanks, Ted! I've never been particularly strong in chemistry - lousy at it, in fact, particularly the inorganic bits - but this backs up my experience. My feeling about it (i.e., not backed by any scientific evidence, simply a conjecture based on experience) is that the hotter-burning fuels carry the water further away - possibly out of the cabin, whether via a flue or just by air movement - before it recondenses, while the "cooler" ones like alcohol barely manage to turn the stuff into steam, and it recondenses almost immediately on any cool surface nearby. Besides, alcohol is quite hygroscopic - so it adds its own load of water to the environment as you burn it. Last of all - and this is the death knell of alcohol stoves as far as I'm concerned - you can't fry anything crispy on one, and fried potatoes without a crispy crust are an abomination. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19026|19026|2008-11-30 15:43:53|troller10|Re: New Adventure - Pictures - Brent Swain|Re: New Adventure - Pictures Great photos . Nice work. Thanks for the update. I think it would be a good idea to weld a 3 inch by half inch flatbar along the bottom of that mast support to make it a T section. It looks a little thin to support the rig on a 40 footer.T sectioning it would greatly strengthen it. Overkill there wouldn't hurt anything. Brent ************************************************************** Thanks for the input Brent. The mast support is 2" x 4" x 1/4" box tube. Just yesterday I was talking to a friend about beefing it up a bit. I was thinking that I could sister two more pieces of 1/4" plate along sides the box tube. Do you think that would be sufficient? 3" x 1/2" flat-bar welded to the bottom of the box tube would be a lot easier though. Now that you know the mast support is boxtube would you still recommend the flat-bar? Thanks for the positive criticism. I'll keep posting pic's as I get them. By the way for anyone wanting an easy way to post pictures, I recommend using www.flickr.com, (I have no affiliation with flickr, I just experienced an easy way to get photo's on the web). Brien| 19027|19020|2008-11-30 15:44:04|Martin Demers|Re: origami hard chine VS radius chine|-- It would probably be a lot of extra work of course. I simply had that idea looking at some pictures of steel boat construction using radius chine the full lenght of the boat. I agree, it might not be worthed because the chine is below the water line. Maybe it could be considered if it convince the ones for who the aesthetic of the chine is the only reason why they wont buit an origami. Martin. - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > HI Brent, > > > > > > Have you ever thought of welding a round radius chine on the > inside of the hard chine of > > an origani boat and than cut the steel plate on the outside of the > hull on the top an bottom > > of the hard chine to achieve a rounder hull and eliminate that hard > chine. > > > > > > Martin. > > > martin > I know its been done on origami boats before. I think there is a pic > of Ian's 39ft. aluminum, bilge keeler and the chine has been rounded. > I saw that boat when it was at Shelter Island in Richmond, BC, it was > the first Swain boat I ever saw. Not long after it Marcel's boat > passed through the yard on the way to Quebec and then we stumbled > onto Gord's boat while driving to the grocery store. Pretty soon we > seemed to be bumping into Swan boats everywhere.:) > I think Brent would say that since the chine is below the waterline > tht its not worth the extra work, so why round it off? > Rowland > | 19028|18927|2008-11-30 15:44:10|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|If one was to figure the % differenc and volume used over the life of the boat or appliances it is a big differenc. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > When normalized, the heat of combustion of propane, then, is about 555 kJ/(mol h2o) and ethanol is about 470 kJ/(mol h2o), a significant difference, but not huge. | 19029|19029|2008-12-01 22:41:22|theboilerflue|Masthead light|Kate or Carl what that light who two have up on your mast? is it a fluresent 12v?| 19030|19030|2008-12-01 22:41:22|theboilerflue|mast building?|Ok here are a few questions i'll throw out there for who ever has an answer. I've seen some boats with one set oflower shrouds about half way between mast head and speaders and i've seen ones with both lower shrouds at the spreaders what are the merit of both? For a boom what size pipe should i look for? I'm thinking aluminum sh.40 5 inch? What is the design for a gooseneck should i make some sort of U-joint or two half-loopsor what? What size pipe to use for spreaders i have a bunch of 2 1/2 inch alu. sh.40? Does one close the ends off around the shrouds in some way?| 19031|19029|2008-12-05 03:54:30|Carl Anderson|Re: Masthead light|Haiden, Yes it is a high efficiency 12VDC fluorescent light. It draws 11 watts. Carl theboilerflue wrote: > > > Kate or Carl what that light who two have up on your mast? is it a > fluresent 12v? > | 19032|19032|2008-12-05 03:54:44|NHarney|Swain 31 or 36 WANTED|I'd like to buy a Swain 31 or 36 with bilge keels. I prefer a completed boat, but will consider substantially completed projects and single keels. Cash buyer. Norm Harney 805-402-1378 or norm@...| 19033|18927|2008-12-05 03:55:23|Paul Wilson|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|Something else to consider when choosing fuel for a heater... I seriously considered switching to propane in my boat after two winters in Vancouver with a dirty diesel heater. The thing that turned me off was how often I would have to run to the station and refill the bottle. A 20 pound bottle of propane has about 431,000 btu's of heating value. Diesel is about 166,000 btu per gallon. My heater was 16,000 btu at full output. On average, I figured that I would have to go get the bottle filled at the gas station every 3 days. Expensive, and a pain in the ass. One winter it was -15 C for weeks so the heater was going almost full blast. My diesel tank, in contrast, is 90 gallons and would feed the heater almost the whole winter. In theory at full maximum setting of my heater and assuming efficiencies are the same.. One 20 pound bottle of propane 431,000 / 16,000 equals 26.9 hours or 1.1 days. My 90 gallon diesel tank (166,000 * 90 ) / 16,000 equals 933 hours or 38.9 days. So my diesel tank is like having 35 bottles of propane on board.. I hope my figuring is correct :). In my experience, during the winters, propane for cooking didn't really change the quality of life regarding condensation. With a hatch cracked open, maybe the outside air coming in has more of an effect. I think that when it's cold enough, just the fact that you are living on board and breathing will help cause condensation to form. I don't recall ever being on board a boat in a Vancouver winter that didn't have sweaty ports and hatches. During winter, the liveaboards usually greeted each other by saying, "How is your heater?" rather than "How are you?" The best solution is to avoid winters :). Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:27 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics If one was to figure the % differenc and volume used over the life of the boat or appliances it is a big differenc. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > When normalized, the heat of combustion of propane, then, is about 555 kJ/(mol h2o) and ethanol is about 470 kJ/(mol h2o), a significant difference, but not huge. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1820 - Release Date: 11/30/2008 5:53 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19034|18993|2008-12-05 03:56:32|brentswain38|Re: Global Metals Prices|Thats how my mast and Rowlands boat went misissing I guess those guys are out of bussiness.High time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > On the local (UK) TV news recently there was an item about a load of > beer kegs that had been dumped in a country lane. Metal beer kegs are > a popular item to steal and take to a scrap yard. I guess with scrap > prices fallen so it wasn't worth the risk for the scrap dealer to buy > obviously stolen items. When scrap prices were high thieves were > stealing aluminium road signs, several went missing on the road that I > use to get to work. They have stopped stealing them now. > > Regards, > Ted > | 19035|19032|2008-12-05 09:59:39|kingsknight4life|Re: Swain 31 or 36 WANTED|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "NHarney" wrote: > > I'd like to buy a Swain 31 or 36 There was a 36 for sale on Yachtworld recently. It's located in Mexico though. Rowland| 19036|18927|2008-12-05 10:39:39|Barney|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|We had a Antartic Diesel that was glorious but ONLY when it was tuned to perfection. When we got it burning clean, the view window was clear, next to no soot on the deck, and you could never see any smoke. We would never attempt to adjust it for heat output but would keep it going for months at a time and on warmer days just open some hatches which would help keep the boat dry too. However it may have helped that our boat was cedar too... After having a kerosene heater (kill me now) and lugging propane bottles, I wouldn't do anything else as a liveaboard in the NW. Just my .02, and I don't guarantee its worth that.... Barney On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 11:13 +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > Something else to consider when choosing fuel for a heater... > > I seriously considered switching to propane in my boat after two > winters in > Vancouver with a dirty diesel heater. The thing that turned me off was > how > often I would have to run to the station and refill the bottle. A 20 > pound > bottle of propane has about 431,000 btu's of heating value. Diesel is > about > 166,000 btu per gallon. My heater was 16,000 btu at full output. On > average, I figured that I would have to go get the bottle filled at > the gas > station every 3 days. Expensive, and a pain in the ass. One winter it > was > -15 C for weeks so the heater was going almost full blast. My diesel > tank, > in contrast, is 90 gallons and would feed the heater almost the whole > winter. > > In theory at full maximum setting of my heater and assuming > efficiencies are > the same.. > One 20 pound bottle of propane > 431,000 / 16,000 equals 26.9 hours or 1.1 days. > > My 90 gallon diesel tank > (166,000 * 90 ) / 16,000 equals 933 hours or 38.9 days. > > So my diesel tank is like having 35 bottles of propane on board.. I > hope my > figuring is correct :). > > In my experience, during the winters, propane for cooking didn't > really > change the quality of life regarding condensation. With a hatch > cracked > open, maybe the outside air coming in has more of an effect. I think > that > when it's cold enough, just the fact that you are living on board and > breathing will help cause condensation to form. I don't recall ever > being > on board a boat in a Vancouver winter that didn't have sweaty ports > and > hatches. During winter, the liveaboards usually greeted each other by > saying, "How is your heater?" rather than "How are you?" > > The best solution is to avoid winters :). > > Cheers, Paul > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:27 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics > > If one was to figure the % differenc and volume used over the life of > the boat or appliances it is a big differenc. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > , "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > When normalized, the heat of combustion of propane, then, is about > 555 kJ/(mol h2o) and ethanol is about 470 kJ/(mol h2o), a significant > difference, but not huge. > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1820 - Release Date: > 11/30/2008 > 5:53 PM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 19037|19030|2008-12-05 15:35:50|brentswain38|Re: mast building?|Putting the aft lowers halfway up the top panel is to support the staysail stay. I prefer to put them both at the spreaders and use a running back stay when using the staysail. I only use it offshore on long tacks, but Steve on Silas Crosby uses it all the time. Sch 40 is too heavy for a boom. 5 inch aluminium with a 1/8th inch wall is much better. The drawing for the main boom goosneck is on page 65 of my book. Check it out. All of what you need is either in the book or on the plans . 1 inch sch 40 aluminium is all you need for spreaders. Some have used the struts off floatplanes, which are aerofoil shape and look real trendy. ABC scrap in Richmond BC at the north end of #3 road usually has lots at scrap aluminium prices. Spreader ends should have a piece of 3/8th half aluminium pipe welded in to take the shrouds. They shouldn't stick out beyond the shroud much, or they will chafe and catch the genny . I molded spreader end covers out of black 1 1/2 inch poly pipe , by heating it to soft, then molding it around the spreader end and shroud, with welding gloves ,while it was hot.. Commercially made ends are only available in white , which breaks down much faster than black plastic. I'll be in your neck of the woods in a week or so. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Ok here are a few questions i'll throw out there for who ever has an > answer. > I've seen some boats with one set oflower shrouds about half way > between mast head and speaders and i've seen ones with both lower > shrouds at the spreaders what are the merit of both? > For a boom what size pipe should i look for? I'm thinking aluminum > sh.40 5 inch? > What is the design for a gooseneck should i make some sort of U-joint > or two half-loopsor what? > What size pipe to use for spreaders i have a bunch of 2 1/2 inch alu. > sh.40? Does one close the ends off around the shrouds in some way? > | 19038|18927|2008-12-05 15:48:21|brentswain38|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|A friend, who switched from oil to wood this year, said it cost her more for heating oil per month last winter ,than for diesel to run her engine for the whole year. Where she lives in Heriot Bay, the guy I sold my last boat to collected enough wood from around his boat with a landing net to heat his boat all winter, without having to leave the deck for fuel( or pay a penny for it.) Wood heating makes one more independent of the "economy" I switched form oil to wood 32 years ago when I kept running out of oil when I was in a great anchorage , with lots of game ,fish, fresh water and wood , where I could have stayed for weeks. I have a clean burning oil heater with a blue flame, which makes me cough when I use it. Wood smoke doesn't . Many of my ancestors lived past 100, using only wood heat. I haven't hooked it up in years. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Something else to consider when choosing fuel for a heater... > > I seriously considered switching to propane in my boat after two winters in > Vancouver with a dirty diesel heater. The thing that turned me off was how > often I would have to run to the station and refill the bottle. A 20 pound > bottle of propane has about 431,000 btu's of heating value. Diesel is about > 166,000 btu per gallon. My heater was 16,000 btu at full output. On > average, I figured that I would have to go get the bottle filled at the gas > station every 3 days. Expensive, and a pain in the ass. One winter it was > -15 C for weeks so the heater was going almost full blast. My diesel tank, > in contrast, is 90 gallons and would feed the heater almost the whole > winter. > > In theory at full maximum setting of my heater and assuming efficiencies are > the same.. > One 20 pound bottle of propane > 431,000 / 16,000 equals 26.9 hours or 1.1 days. > > My 90 gallon diesel tank > (166,000 * 90 ) / 16,000 equals 933 hours or 38.9 days. > > So my diesel tank is like having 35 bottles of propane on board.. I hope my > figuring is correct :). > > In my experience, during the winters, propane for cooking didn't really > change the quality of life regarding condensation. With a hatch cracked > open, maybe the outside air coming in has more of an effect. I think that > when it's cold enough, just the fact that you are living on board and > breathing will help cause condensation to form. I don't recall ever being > on board a boat in a Vancouver winter that didn't have sweaty ports and > hatches. During winter, the liveaboards usually greeted each other by > saying, "How is your heater?" rather than "How are you?" > > The best solution is to avoid winters :). > > Cheers, Paul > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:27 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics > > If one was to figure the % differenc and volume used over the life of > the boat or appliances it is a big differenc. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > When normalized, the heat of combustion of propane, then, is about > 555 kJ/(mol h2o) and ethanol is about 470 kJ/(mol h2o), a significant > difference, but not huge. > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1820 - Release Date: 11/30/2008 > 5:53 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19039|19030|2008-12-05 15:53:22|brentswain38|Re: mast building?|Victor just told me that the 2-24 ft lengths of 6 inch tubing he bought for his mast last summer, at the peak of metal prices ,was around $600. Now that the market has crashed , Forsyth wants over $800.I guess they can sit on their tubing ( preferably end on) until they become a bit more desperate and reasonable. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Ok here are a few questions i'll throw out there for who ever has an > answer. > I've seen some boats with one set oflower shrouds about half way > between mast head and speaders and i've seen ones with both lower > shrouds at the spreaders what are the merit of both? > For a boom what size pipe should i look for? I'm thinking aluminum > sh.40 5 inch? > What is the design for a gooseneck should i make some sort of U-joint > or two half-loopsor what? > What size pipe to use for spreaders i have a bunch of 2 1/2 inch alu. > sh.40? Does one close the ends off around the shrouds in some way? > | 19040|19040|2008-12-05 15:54:34|Jim Douglas|Re: Lead for sale|For Victor, I still have approximately 2,000 lbs of lead for sale if you're still interested. Lead is located in Parksville, Vancouver Island. In case Victor has made other plans, I would be intereseted in hearing from any one else. Jim Douglas 604-986-2678| 19041|19020|2008-12-05 16:14:32|brentswain38|Re: origami hard chine VS radius chine|I made the chine on my boat from 12 inch pipe. It was a lot of work, and I doubt if I would do it again. The chine was 1/7th the circumfence of the pipe . Thus every foot of pipe made 7 ft of chine. I welded the pipe to the topside plate , then made cuts every 18 inches to let it bend . I would have been better off to pull the hull together first, then cut out 18 inch sections and fit the pipe in one piece at a time, making sure each piece was tangent to both the topsides and the bottom plates. Waterline yachts used to use conic origami shaped ends on their boats, with the radius sections only amidships . It looked great. Since then they have gone to puting in radiused plates the full length and you can see the flat topside plates on the stern from across the harbour. It looks ugly as hell, like a beautiful woman with a big flat spot on an otherwise shapely ass. Conic ends are a smooth curve, from sheerline to centreline. Radius chine ends are a flat topside plate , running into a radius section, then flat again on the bottom plate. They are also a lot more work , and expense than a one piece conic end, more work and expense for an inferior result. As water flowing across a chine is major turbulence, the greatest benefit in terms of drag come from eliminating the chines in the ends, and the benefit is minimal amidships where the flow is along the chine. In rough water , eliminating the chine amidships has some theoretical benefit, how much is anyone's guess. At any rate a small radiusing of the chine would give the same benefit as a big radius. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > > > HI Brent, > > > Have you ever thought of welding a round radius chine on the inside of the hard chine of > an origani boat and than cut the steel plate on the outside of the hull on the top an bottom > of the hard chine to achieve a rounder hull and eliminate that hard chine. > > > Martin. > | 19042|19026|2008-12-05 16:24:07|brentswain38|Re: New Adventure - Pictures - Brent Swain|I didn't realise it was a square tubing. It's probably strong enough. Putting a flat bar along the bottom would add a lot more strength than adding to the sides. Think of what happens under load. The top is in compresion, the bottom in tension. The top, being the cabin top, is not going anywhere. A piece of heavy flat bar along the bottom will add hugely to the tension strength. 1/2 by 3 inches is 90,000 lbs tension strength. The bottom edges of plate on the sides is nowhere near that strength. The sides are merely spacers for the top and bottom. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > Re: New Adventure - Pictures > > Great photos . Nice work. Thanks for the update. I think it would be > a good idea to weld a 3 inch by half inch flatbar along the bottom of > that mast support to make it a T section. It looks a little thin to > support the rig on a 40 footer.T sectioning it would greatly > strengthen it. > Overkill there wouldn't hurt anything. > Brent > ************************************************************** > Thanks for the input Brent. The mast support is 2" x 4" x 1/4" box tube. > > Just yesterday I was talking to a friend about beefing it up a bit. I > was thinking that I could sister two more pieces of 1/4" plate along > sides the box tube. Do you think that would be sufficient? > > 3" x 1/2" flat-bar welded to the bottom of the box tube would be a lot > easier though. Now that you know the mast support is boxtube would > you still recommend the flat-bar? > > Thanks for the positive criticism. I'll keep posting pic's as I get > them. By the way for anyone wanting an easy way to post pictures, I > recommend using www.flickr.com, (I have no affiliation with flickr, I > just experienced an easy way to get photo's on the web). > > Brien > | 19043|18993|2008-12-05 17:01:06|brentswain38|Re: Global Metals Prices|Selkirk bought Harpers , but not Walkers . Otherwise Walkers would be charging $3.25 a pound, or trying to. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Last week i was talking to the guy who runs Walker's he said they were > buying stainless at ten cents a pound! they were selling it at a buck > fifty. He also said that they can't sell anything, that no one is > buying anything (or selling). He said they usually sod to some place > doen in Seattle but that they haven't been buying for a while now, > they had to lay off all but two of their guys. They are owned by > selkirk/steel pacific/harpers are they not? > > > Selkirk scrap tells me they want $3.25 a pound for scrap stainless. > > That is what they were asking before the plunge in metal prices. > > Russel quoted me $840 for the materials for the mast. I guess we'll > > have to let them sit on it a while longer, or shop for realistic > > metal dealers. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cf.stout" wrote: > > > > > > News is that the global scrap metals market has completely > > collapsed. > > > This might be something to watch as an indicator of when prices on > > > new steel stock might start to rise again (which seems inevitable). > > > > > > The Chinese in particular had been buying huge quantities of steel > > > scrap for quite a while...word was that most of it was needed to > > make > > > rebar for the massive amount of concrete that was being used over > > > there. With the global economy stalled companies are walking away > > from > > > their contracts to purchase scrap metal, leaving the brokers and > > > shippers holding the bag. > > > > > > I was told that a certain amount of virgin steel has to be included > > in > > > the melt to make rebar and this undoubtably helped raise the price > > > over and above the demand in their manufacturing industry for virgin > > > steel. Recently, the Chinese government announced their > > own "Economic > > > Stimulus Package" which was 580 billion dollars to be directed into > > > keeping their infrastructure build-out going. Of course, it will > > take > > > a while to get that going, and the actual total amount may be > > > something other than stated, but it is going to be huge. > > > > > > If/when this comes to pass it seems to me that the scrap will > > > gradually start shipping overseas again...entities that are holding > > it > > > will be anxious to get it off of their property and off their books. > > > Here in the Pacific NW USA all of the scrap metal yards and > > recycling > > > places were taking in just about anything you could haul in and > > paying > > > in cash on the spot...so that stopped real fast when the credit > > crunch > > > hit, as they were likely going to the bank everyday to load the till > > > with cash, and then suddenly they couldn't ship the stuff out > > anymore > > > to boot. > > > > > > It seems to me that when we again start seeing people hauling in > > junk > > > to the local scrap metal places that will be a sure sign that prices > > > are going to start heading back up. Any comments? > > > > > > /Charles > > > > > > | 19044|19020|2008-12-05 20:03:56|heretic_37ft|Re: origami hard chine VS radius chine|Brent: I would never (never) change your hard-chine. It sails great! http://krahenbuhl.net/BrentSwain37/060515-haulout/P1010089.JPG Picture above is the best design on the planet! Respectfully, The Heretic| 19045|19040|2008-12-06 16:28:19|theboilerflue|Re: Lead for sale|paul liebenburg was looking for lead for his boat and i think he still is. He made a post asking for lead a few months ago with his number on it. > For Victor, > > I still have approximately 2,000 lbs of lead for sale if you're still > interested. Lead is located in Parksville, Vancouver Island. > > In case Victor has made other plans, I would be intereseted in hearing > from any one else. > > Jim Douglas > 604-986-2678 > | 19046|19046|2008-12-06 17:12:03|James Pronk|304L Stainless 316 Stainless|I think that I might have asked this a couple of months ago but I will ask again (just to conferm that I am an idiot). I have been looking for 316 ss but I am finding alot of 304L. Am I okay to use this above the water line? Can I use this for the trim tabe? Cam you mix and match 316 and 304L? I just picted up 340lb of stainless for $200 cash. Thank you James.| 19047|19040|2008-12-07 00:17:48|Paul Liebenberg|Re: Lead for sale|yes jim, I am still looking for lead. I will call you when I get home. (1 week) Paul L ----- Original Message ----- From: theboilerflue Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008 1:28 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead for sale To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > paul liebenburg was looking for lead for his boat and i think he still > is. He made a post asking for lead a few months ago with his > number on it. > >   > > For Victor, > > > > I still have approximately 2,000 lbs of lead for sale if > you're still > > interested. Lead is located in Parksville, Vancouver Island. > > > > In case Victor has made other plans, I would be intereseted in > hearing > > from any one else. > > > > Jim Douglas > > 604-986-2678 > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   > origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message > to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 19048|19048|2008-12-07 12:25:08|Ian and Jean Campbell|Scrap Metal Prices.....|Yesterday at Harpers in Duncan B.C. they were charging $2.50 a pound for sch 40, 1 inch 304 ss pipe but the acrclic/plexiglass sheet was 50 cents a pound. They said that they paid a lot for the scrap ....... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19049|19048|2008-12-07 15:31:15|James Pronk|Re: Scrap Metal Prices.....|Wow! I just paid less then $0.75 a lb for the mix 304&316 I picked up yesterday and it was tested so I know what it is! So would 304L be okay above the water line? James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ian and Jean Campbell" wrote: > > Yesterday at Harpers in Duncan B.C. they were charging $2.50 a pound for sch 40, 1 inch 304 ss pipe but the acrclic/plexiglass sheet was 50 cents a pound. They said that they paid a lot for the scrap ....... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19050|19046|2008-12-07 18:13:24|brentswain38|Re: 304L Stainless 316 Stainless|No problem above the waterline. No problem mix and match above the waterline, which is the bulk of your stainless use. The trimtab is easy to get at and change if you have a problem so I wouldn't worry about it. Below the waterline I'd stick to 316, but there is such a tiny amount of ss below the waterline, it shouldn't be a problem finding it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I think that I might have asked this a couple of months ago but I will > ask again (just to conferm that I am an idiot). > I have been looking for 316 ss but I am finding alot of 304L. Am I > okay to use this above the water line? Can I use this for the trim > tabe? Cam you mix and match 316 and 304L? I just picted up 340lb of > stainless for $200 cash. > Thank you James. > | 19051|19048|2008-12-07 18:20:07|brentswain38|Re: Scrap Metal Prices.....|I doubt if Harpers ever paid a lot for scrap. Nobody's buying it and the Campbell river pulp mill is shutting down permanently so there will be a huge amount of SS flooding the market. If you have the option , best to let them sit on it a while longer and see if they can afford to wait it out. With no income I doubt very much if they will. From $3.25 a pound a few days ago to $2.50 a pound yesterday is a rapid drop. Expect it to continue dropping at that rate . Brent - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ian and Jean Campbell" wrote: > > Yesterday at Harpers in Duncan B.C. they were charging $2.50 a pound for sch 40, 1 inch 304 ss pipe but the acrclic/plexiglass sheet was 50 cents a pound. They said that they paid a lot for the scrap ....... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19052|19032|2008-12-07 18:22:47|brentswain38|Re: Swain 31 or 36 WANTED|I could't find yachtworld . What was the name of the boat? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "NHarney" wrote: > > > > I'd like to buy a Swain 31 or 36 > > There was a 36 for sale on Yachtworld recently. It's located in Mexico though. > Rowland > | 19053|19053|2008-12-07 18:27:14|q243w5|lead for sale|I know someone who has 3000lbs + lead for sale in Ontario,Canada. Price was 75 cents a pound when I bought 1000 lbs recently. If interested contact me and I'll forward the contact information. robin| 19054|19029|2008-12-07 19:16:43|Aaron Williams|Re: Masthead light|Carl Ok we know what it is now where did you find it at....:-) --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Masthead light To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 5:09 AM Haiden, Yes it is a high efficiency 12VDC fluorescent light. It draws 11 watts. Carl theboilerflue wrote: > > > Kate or Carl what that light who two have up on your mast? is it a > fluresent 12v? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19055|19032|2008-12-07 20:29:47|theboilerflue|Re: Swain 31 or 36 WANTED|here brent http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/Custom-Swain-Cutter-2000318/San-Carlos%2C-Sonora/Mexico 89,500 wow aparently built by pacific marine engineering --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I could't find yachtworld . What was the name of the boat? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "NHarney" wrote: > > > > > > I'd like to buy a Swain 31 or 36 > > > > There was a 36 for sale on Yachtworld recently. It's located in > Mexico though. > > Rowland > > > | 19056|19029|2008-12-08 10:03:22|Aaron Williams|Re: Masthead light|Carl I was just feeling lazy when I replied to this Thanks for sharing Aaron  --- On Sun, 12/7/08, Aaron Williams wrote: From: Aaron Williams Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Masthead light To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, December 7, 2008, 3:16 PM Carl Ok we know what it is now where did you find it at....:-) --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Masthead light To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 5:09 AM Haiden, Yes it is a high efficiency 12VDC fluorescent light. It draws 11 watts. Carl theboilerflue wrote: > > > Kate or Carl what that light who two have up on your mast? is it a > fluresent 12v? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19057|19048|2008-12-08 11:22:01|troller10|Re: Scrap Metal Prices.....|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ian and Jean Campbell" wrote: > > Yesterday at Harpers in Duncan B.C. they were charging $2.50 a pound for sch 40, 1 inch 304 ss pipe but the acrclic/plexiglass sheet was 50 cents a pound. They said that they paid a lot for the scrap ....... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Down here in California the scrappers are paying 0.05 USD per pound for SS and if you want to buy it you will have to fork over 2.50 USD per pound. Cheers. Brien| 19058|19046|2008-12-08 15:45:43|cokedrum|Re: 304L Stainless 316 Stainless|I just found this link explaing the diffrent stainless steel grades and uses. Its a adobe pdf. file http://www.ssina.com/publications/salt_corrosion.html Hopefully it helps --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I think that I might have asked this a couple of months ago but I will > ask again (just to conferm that I am an idiot). > I have been looking for 316 ss but I am finding alot of 304L. Am I > okay to use this above the water line? Can I use this for the trim > tabe? Cam you mix and match 316 and 304L? I just picted up 340lb of > stainless for $200 cash. > Thank you James. > | 19059|19032|2008-12-08 20:24:23|brentswain38|Re: Swain 31 or 36 WANTED|Yes, that boat was built in Sausalito and has made several trips to Mexico and back to Frisco. A single keeler , very well built, and well painted. Brent flue" wrote: > > here brent > http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/Custom-Swain-Cutter-2000318/San-Carlos%2C-Sonora/Mexico > 89,500 wow > aparently built by pacific marine engineering > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I could't find yachtworld . What was the name of the boat? > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "NHarney" wrote: > > > > > > > > I'd like to buy a Swain 31 or 36 > > > > > > There was a 36 for sale on Yachtworld recently. It's located in > > Mexico though. > > > Rowland > > > > > > | 19060|19029|2008-12-09 08:43:13|Carl Anderson|Re: Masthead light|Aaron, Here is where I found the light: (kinda sounds religious!!??) http://store.solar-electric.com/sol12voldcli.html You have to make the fixture to mount it in. I made mine out of clear plastic tubing. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Carl > Ok we know what it is now where did you find it at....:-) > | 19061|19040|2008-12-09 10:28:55|vjmtymo|Re: Lead for sale|Jim I won't be buying lead until June. If you have another taker, go for it. Victor --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" wrote: > > For Victor, > > I still have approximately 2,000 lbs of lead for sale if you're still > interested. Lead is located in Parksville, Vancouver Island. > > In case Victor has made other plans, I would be intereseted in hearing > from any one else. > > Jim Douglas > 604-986-2678 > | 19062|18927|2008-12-10 16:03:57|Gary Prebble|Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics|Hi Paul... I have a Sigmar diesel heater with separate cold air stack. Worked excellent wintering over in Victoria. Hal Roth mentioned this unit in his last book as his choice. I remember condensation but was nothing compared to my last plastic boat. Regards Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Something else to consider when choosing fuel for a heater... > > I seriously considered switching to propane in my boat after two winters in > Vancouver with a dirty diesel heater. The thing that turned me off was how > often I would have to run to the station and refill the bottle. A 20 pound > bottle of propane has about 431,000 btu's of heating value. Diesel is about > 166,000 btu per gallon. My heater was 16,000 btu at full output. On > average, I figured that I would have to go get the bottle filled at the gas > station every 3 days. Expensive, and a pain in the ass. One winter it was > -15 C for weeks so the heater was going almost full blast. My diesel tank, > in contrast, is 90 gallons and would feed the heater almost the whole > winter. > > In theory at full maximum setting of my heater and assuming efficiencies are > the same.. > One 20 pound bottle of propane > 431,000 / 16,000 equals 26.9 hours or 1.1 days. > > My 90 gallon diesel tank > (166,000 * 90 ) / 16,000 equals 933 hours or 38.9 days. > > So my diesel tank is like having 35 bottles of propane on board.. I hope my > figuring is correct :). > > In my experience, during the winters, propane for cooking didn't really > change the quality of life regarding condensation. With a hatch cracked > open, maybe the outside air coming in has more of an effect. I think that > when it's cold enough, just the fact that you are living on board and > breathing will help cause condensation to form. I don't recall ever being > on board a boat in a Vancouver winter that didn't have sweaty ports and > hatches. During winter, the liveaboards usually greeted each other by > saying, "How is your heater?" rather than "How are you?" > > The best solution is to avoid winters :). > > Cheers, Paul > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:27 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hy-Tech insulating ceramics > > If one was to figure the % differenc and volume used over the life of > the boat or appliances it is a big differenc. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > When normalized, the heat of combustion of propane, then, is about > 555 kJ/(mol h2o) and ethanol is about 470 kJ/(mol h2o), a significant > difference, but not huge. > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1820 - Release Date: 11/30/2008 > 5:53 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19063|19001|2008-12-10 16:28:37|brentswain38|Re: Common screwups|There you may be trying to take things out while heeled, and separate doors or sliding doors would prorbaly be a better idea. Things in bins tend to stay put when you lift the lid. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > On my current boat I made the entire bunk top > > liftable , hinged on the outside , providing easy acess to the entire > > area under the bunk . > > Brent > > > Brent > Should the setee backs be built as one solid hinged lid too? > Rowland > | 19064|19026|2008-12-10 16:34:53|brentswain38|Re: New Adventure - Pictures - Brent Swain|Running the flat bar the full width of the 4 inch wide sq tubing would be better. Anything that you can't paint inside should be welded shut and airtight, like square tubing and doubler plates. Heating air expands, blowing the paint off, then sucking air and moisture back inside when it cools. Brent. - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > Re: New Adventure - Pictures > > Great photos . Nice work. Thanks for the update. I think it would be > a good idea to weld a 3 inch by half inch flatbar along the bottom of > that mast support to make it a T section. It looks a little thin to > support the rig on a 40 footer.T sectioning it would greatly > strengthen it. > Overkill there wouldn't hurt anything. > Brent > ************************************************************** > Thanks for the input Brent. The mast support is 2" x 4" x 1/4" box tube. > > Just yesterday I was talking to a friend about beefing it up a bit. I > was thinking that I could sister two more pieces of 1/4" plate along > sides the box tube. Do you think that would be sufficient? > > 3" x 1/2" flat-bar welded to the bottom of the box tube would be a lot > easier though. Now that you know the mast support is boxtube would > you still recommend the flat-bar? > > Thanks for the positive criticism. I'll keep posting pic's as I get > them. By the way for anyone wanting an easy way to post pictures, I > recommend using www.flickr.com, (I have no affiliation with flickr, I > just experienced an easy way to get photo's on the web). > > Brien > | 19065|19029|2008-12-10 16:40:05|brentswain38|Re: Masthead light|I've always used a piece of 2 inch plexi tubing, with an ABS cap glued on top. I put a 4 inch by 1/4 inch bolt thru the cap to keep the seagulls off( shit disturber) and put the bottom in a 2inch ss tubing bolted to the masthead fiting with a piece of bicycle inner tubing pulled over the joint to seal it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Aaron, > > Here is where I found the light: (kinda sounds religious!!??) > > http://store.solar-electric.com/sol12voldcli.html > > You have to make the fixture to mount it in. > I made mine out of clear plastic tubing. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > > Carl > > Ok we know what it is now where did you find it at....:-) > > > | 19066|19066|2008-12-10 19:33:33|bert andjan|Re: Masthead Light|Carl,   thanks for sending the catalog source for the light...   The ad says that  "a 7 watt bulb is available".   Seeing as it would draw lots less power, do you think the 7 watt bulb would be bright enough for the masthead? Thanks for all your inputs... Bert| 19067|19026|2008-12-11 09:42:33|troller10|Re: New Adventure - Pictures - Brent Swain|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Running the flat bar the full width of the 4 inch wide sq tubing would > be better. Anything that you can't paint inside should be welded shut > and airtight, like square tubing and doubler plates. Heating air > expands, blowing the paint off, then sucking air and moisture back > inside when it cools. > Brent. > > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > > > Re: New Adventure - Pictures > > > > Great photos . Nice work. Thanks for the update. I think it would be > > a good idea to weld a 3 inch by half inch flatbar along the bottom of > > that mast support to make it a T section. It looks a little thin to > > support the rig on a 40 footer.T sectioning it would greatly > > strengthen it. > > Overkill there wouldn't hurt anything. > > Brent > > ************************************************************** > > Thanks for the input Brent. The mast support is 2" x 4" x 1/4" box > tube. > > > > Just yesterday I was talking to a friend about beefing it up a bit. I > > was thinking that I could sister two more pieces of 1/4" plate along > > sides the box tube. Do you think that would be sufficient? > > > > 3" x 1/2" flat-bar welded to the bottom of the box tube would be a lot > > easier though. Now that you know the mast support is boxtube would > > you still recommend the flat-bar? > > > > Thanks for the positive criticism. I'll keep posting pic's as I get > > them. By the way for anyone wanting an easy way to post pictures, I > > recommend using www.flickr.com, (I have no affiliation with flickr, I > > just experienced an easy way to get photo's on the web). > > > > Brien > > > Thanks Brent, That is what I'll do. Cheers, Brien| 19068|19066|2008-12-11 11:15:02|Carl Anderson|Re: Masthead Light|Bert, Sure the 7 watt would be fine. I chose the 11 watt for its higher output in lumens. I thought that I should get all the brightness that I could up there. The cost is the same for both of them. Luminous efficiency is 52 lm/W for the 7 watt & 60 lm/W for the 11 watt. According to the manufacturer, that is better than LED's can get. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com bert andjan wrote: > > > Carl, thanks for sending the catalog source for the light... The ad > says that "a 7 watt bulb is available". Seeing as it would draw lots > less power, do you think the 7 watt bulb would be bright enough for the > masthead? > | 19069|19066|2008-12-11 15:54:46|brentswain38|Re: Masthead Light|Fluorescents are still far brighter per watt than leds. Fluorescent tubes are sensitive to temperature changes so carry extra bulbs. I've replaced a few of them. I've bought 7 watt trouble lights in BC and Tonga for $17. They are common. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Bert, > > Sure the 7 watt would be fine. > I chose the 11 watt for its higher output in lumens. > I thought that I should get all the brightness that I could up there. > The cost is the same for both of them. > Luminous efficiency is 52 lm/W for the 7 watt & 60 lm/W for the 11 watt. > According to the manufacturer, that is better than LED's can get. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > bert andjan wrote: > > > > > > Carl, thanks for sending the catalog source for the light... The ad > > says that "a 7 watt bulb is available". Seeing as it would draw lots > > less power, do you think the 7 watt bulb would be bright enough for the > > masthead? > > > | 19070|19066|2008-12-11 15:58:45|brentswain38|Re: Masthead Light|The visible range of lights is not determined only by lumens , but by the surface area of the light. A pinprick of light , is not as visible as the same number of lumens with a large lighted surface, such as a fluorescent bulb. A friend's 14 watt fluorescent bulb was clearly sighted at 8 miles at sea. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Fluorescents are still far brighter per watt than leds. Fluorescent > tubes are sensitive to temperature changes so carry extra bulbs. I've > replaced a few of them. I've bought 7 watt trouble lights in BC and > Tonga for $17. They are common. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Bert, > > > > Sure the 7 watt would be fine. > > I chose the 11 watt for its higher output in lumens. > > I thought that I should get all the brightness that I could up there. > > The cost is the same for both of them. > > Luminous efficiency is 52 lm/W for the 7 watt & 60 lm/W for the 11 watt. > > According to the manufacturer, that is better than LED's can get. > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > > > > > bert andjan wrote: > > > > > > > > > Carl, thanks for sending the catalog source for the light... > The ad > > > says that "a 7 watt bulb is available". Seeing as it would draw > lots > > > less power, do you think the 7 watt bulb would be bright enough > for the > > > masthead? > > > > > > | 19071|17949|2008-12-12 16:49:36|brentswain38|Steel prices|I just got some sources for steel tubing. Marmon is at 1-800-663-9572 Reliable tube is at 1-888-304-5888 teanm Tube is at 1-800-663-3515 I'll get some prices next week Forsyth said steel prices have dropped 10 to 20% since septemmber. Brent| 19072|19026|2008-12-12 16:51:46|brentswain38|Re: New Adventure - Pictures - Brent Swain|Keep any welds onto the cabintop plate tiny to avoid distortion as they are only for sealing and not all that structural. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Running the flat bar the full width of the 4 inch wide sq tubing would > > be better. Anything that you can't paint inside should be welded shut > > and airtight, like square tubing and doubler plates. Heating air > > expands, blowing the paint off, then sucking air and moisture back > > inside when it cools. > > Brent. > > > > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > > > > > Re: New Adventure - Pictures > > > > > > Great photos . Nice work. Thanks for the update. I think it would be > > > a good idea to weld a 3 inch by half inch flatbar along the bottom of > > > that mast support to make it a T section. It looks a little thin to > > > support the rig on a 40 footer.T sectioning it would greatly > > > strengthen it. > > > Overkill there wouldn't hurt anything. > > > Brent > > > ************************************************************** > > > Thanks for the input Brent. The mast support is 2" x 4" x 1/4" box > > tube. > > > > > > Just yesterday I was talking to a friend about beefing it up a bit. I > > > was thinking that I could sister two more pieces of 1/4" plate along > > > sides the box tube. Do you think that would be sufficient? > > > > > > 3" x 1/2" flat-bar welded to the bottom of the box tube would be a lot > > > easier though. Now that you know the mast support is boxtube would > > > you still recommend the flat-bar? > > > > > > Thanks for the positive criticism. I'll keep posting pic's as I get > > > them. By the way for anyone wanting an easy way to post pictures, I > > > recommend using www.flickr.com, (I have no affiliation with flickr, I > > > just experienced an easy way to get photo's on the web). > > > > > > Brien > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > That is what I'll do. > > Cheers, > > Brien > | 19073|19073|2008-12-12 17:06:57|thesnotrocket|Vacuum Recovery Sandblaster|What do you guys think of this thing? http://www.badboyblasters.com/id92.html Has anybody used one? It looks like it would be perfect for cleaning up welds when using pre primed plate. I also remember an old post Alex made about pre blasting and priming sheet yourself if you can't get it and this might work well for that. The contact patch looks pretty small so it would take awhile but you'd save a LOT of money on blasting media with the vacuum recovery. If you don't want to spend $700 it seems like you could easily make something similar by coupling a shopvac to a regular sandblaster.| 19074|19073|2008-12-12 20:03:21|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Vacuum Recovery Sandblaster|I looked at one of those too and it inspired me to botch together my own out of stuff I had laying around. I have not used it much but so far it works great. I have a 5 gal paint bucket sitting on the top of what looks like a play ground slide with a piece of window screen over the top of the sheet metal. My shop vac connects to the lid as well as a 1 1/4 inch PVC pipe.? The other end of the pipe runs out to a tarp about 30 feet away where the sand collects. The bottom of the bucket has a 3 inch gate check valve in it.? When the bucket is almost full of sand or I turn off the vacume the sand pours out onto the screen and slides down.? Good stuff falls through to the sheet metal and slides on down into another 5 gallon bucket and the crap falls off the end into a trash bucket.? Best of Luck Doug J www.SubmarineBoat.com -----Original Message----- From: thesnotrocket To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 4:06 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Vacuum Recovery Sandblaster What do you guys think of this thing? http://www.badboyblasters.com/id92.html Has anybody used one? It looks like it would be perfect for cleaning up welds when using pre primed plate. I also remember an old post Alex made about pre blasting and priming sheet yourself if you can't get it and this might work well for that. The contact patch looks pretty small so it would take awhile but you'd save a LOT of money on blasting media with the vacuum recovery. If you don't want to spend $700 it seems like you could easily make something similar by coupling a shopvac to a regular sandblaster.? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19075|19073|2008-12-13 06:26:55|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Vacuum Recovery Sandblaster|Hi, We used a similar piece of equipment over thirty years ago ,different make but the same idea. The shop I worked in used boilerplate from 1/4" up to 14"thick, weld runs could be cleaned and all slag blasted away to give a ready to paint surface.Cast iron which had cracked was ved then the wield area cleaned using this equipment. The equipment worked well with only one drawback, the brush had to be in contact with a surface to work properly so when cleaning an edge another piece of material was butted to the edge to give a working area. Mikeafloat uk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19076|19073|2008-12-13 06:41:35|T & D Cain|Re: Vacuum Recovery Sandblaster|A good process idea for limited area blast without the usual major local cleanup task. One caution ---- the idea that recycled abrasive is always OK is false in many cases. Most blast abrasives in common use will fracture to smaller particles in the first use at velocities which are useful in doing the task properly. If the recycled abrasive particles are below optimum sieve passing grade, they might well clean beautifully and quickly, but they have limited cutting and peening (profile development) ability at the same blast nozzle pressure. This means that what you recover needs to be screened to recover the oversize, not the undersized residue, if you are trying to get the best surface for primer or coating system locking to the steel or whatever. If the fines are dumped from the vacuum / return material, this system will save you material and time and give a reasonable coating surface after cleanup --- most of the crap you are trying to remove is quite fine. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of BrdbMc@... Sent: Saturday, 13 December 2008 20:57 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Vacuum Recovery Sandblaster Hi, We used a similar piece of equipment over thirty years ago ,different make but the same idea. The shop I worked in used boilerplate from 1/4" up to 14"thick, weld runs could be cleaned and all slag blasted away to give a ready to paint surface.Cast iron which had cracked was ved then the wield area cleaned using this equipment. The equipment worked well with only one drawback, the brush had to be in contact with a surface to work properly so when cleaning an edge another piece of material was butted to the edge to give a working area. Mikeafloat uk [ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19077|17500|2008-12-13 17:23:07|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing|So if you drive a Tesla? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane Duncan" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing sorry guys i just couldn't resists this one EcoGeeks get all the girls http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/539/ecogeeks-get-all-the-girls.html Just in case you needed another reason to care about the environment: It turns out girls dig guys who dig environmental technology. according to a study conducted by GM as part of this year's Challenge X competition: Nearly 9 in 10 women (88 percent) say they'd rather chat up someone who owns the latest fuel-efficient car versus the latest sports car. ----- Original Message ---- From: bendeac2000 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 7:37:15 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing It might be the future of sailing but not this model- I kite surf, weigh 75kg and use a biggest kite of 20 square metres. The kite ship uses a kite of (i'm told) 100 square metres. 5 times as big. And the ship weighs? The problem with kites is any machine that can be sufficiently powered by a kite can be lifted by that kite. OK on a surfboard but problematic with a freighter. There's a lot of very interesting research going on building sheet-ability into the kites without affecting control-ability. Then the massive vertical power spikes kites can currently generate might be moderated. Until then the Beluga is a perfect example of industry's current approach to sustainable energy- a kite up the front where reporters can see it and a diesel thumping away up the back. ben deacon www.kitesled.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyetrs3MQ0&feature=related > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnACybMhPs4&feature=related > > sailing without a mast > could this be the future of sailing ships? > its pretty windy 300m up plus reduces your capsize risk > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19078|17500|2008-12-13 19:24:12|James Pronk|Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing|10 out of 10, I would guess? James Pronk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > So if you drive a Tesla? > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shane Duncan" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:35 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing > > > sorry guys > i just couldn't resists this one > > > EcoGeeks get all the girls > http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/539/ecogeeks-get-all-the- girls.html > > Just in case you needed another reason to care about the environment: It > turns out girls dig guys who dig environmental technology. > according to a study conducted by GM as part of this year's Challenge X > competition: > Nearly 9 in 10 women (88 percent) say they'd rather chat up someone who owns > the latest fuel-efficient car versus the latest sports car. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: bendeac2000 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 7:37:15 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing > > It might be the future of sailing but not this model- I kite surf, weigh > 75kg and use a > biggest kite of 20 square metres. The kite ship uses a kite of (i'm told) > 100 square > metres. 5 times as big. And the ship weighs? > > The problem with kites is any machine that can be sufficiently powered by a > kite can be > lifted by that kite. OK on a surfboard but problematic with a freighter. > > There's a lot of very interesting research going on building sheet- ability > into the kites > without affecting control-ability. Then the massive vertical power spikes > kites can > currently generate might be moderated. > > Until then the Beluga is a perfect example of industry's current approach to > sustainable > energy- a kite up the front where reporters can see it and a diesel thumping > away up the > back. > > ben deacon > www.kitesled.com > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyetrs3MQ0&feature=related > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnACybMhPs4&feature=related > > > > sailing without a mast > > could this be the future of sailing ships? > > its pretty windy 300m up plus reduces your capsize risk > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19079|19079|2008-12-13 19:37:10|James Pronk|VW Jetta|I found a 1984 Jetta Diesel (not turbo)with 250K on it for $350. I know that there has been a lot of talk about these and I don't think I should turn this down. The diesel rabbit I had had over 800K so I know it should have a few hours left in it. Could I use the 5 speed tranny in say 2nd gear and reverse? or would I be better to get a marine transmission? If I built a exhaust manifold with a water jacket and keel cooling would that be enough to keep it cool?| 19080|19079|2008-12-13 22:00:54|peter_d_wiley|Re: VW Jetta|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I found a 1984 Jetta Diesel (not turbo)with 250K on it for $350. I know > that there has been a lot of talk about these and I don't think I > should turn this down. The diesel rabbit I had had over 800K so I know > it should have a few hours left in it. Could I use the 5 speed tranny > in say 2nd gear and reverse? NO. Emphasis intended. There is no thrust bearing in an auto trans and all that thrust the prop is applying to the water column has to be absorbed somewhere. Alternatively you could put a heavy duty thrust assy on the prop shaft and then probably get away with the existing trans. or would I be better to get a marine > transmission? It would be better, yeah, but it's a lot of fun finding one that'll fit without engineering the adaptor plates. Check what SAE size the Jetta diesel bell housing mount is and start from there. Alternatively use a marine trans that's stand-alone and couple it with a short shaft and Lovejoy coupling. The Borg Warner Velvet drive boxes are nicely engineered. Bell housing adaptors are readily available. I've got a Chinese 3.5:1 that I'm going to use, it has flanges for the input & output shafts so I can use any engine I want. There are lots of ways of skinning a cat but they all depend on your access to tools and personal mechanical/machining ability. An Ebay search sometimes finds marine g/boxes. Some guy in Florida had a number listed a while ago. If I built a exhaust manifold with a water jacket and > keel cooling would that be enough to keep it cool? Probably - approx 1/3 of the engine output is waste heat. You need to dump it somewhere. Heat transfer is a function of surface area and temperature gradient (plus other stuff like the conductivity of metal, fluid etc). Assume you're in 26C tropical water and size accordingly. It'll be a right bitch to overheat trying to get off a reef on the turn of the tide... Water cooled manifold - I don't know really. A dry manifold & exhaust is a potential fire hazard but a wet one is a maintenance PITA. I'm leaning toward dry myself, unless my Yanmar is rebuildable as it has the wet manifold already (and, incidentally, full of rust scale which I'm not looking fwd to getting out). PDW| 19081|19079|2008-12-14 12:58:08|thesnotrocket|Re: VW Jetta|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > > It would be better, yeah, but it's a lot of fun finding one that'll > fit without engineering the adaptor plates. Check what SAE size the > Jetta diesel bell housing mount is and start from there. I looked into this a while ago, the VW diesel cars don't have a standard SAE flange on the bellhousing but http://www.lancingmarine.com/ makes one that does as well as a bunch of other marinizing parts for them, pricey though. Another possibility would be from VW's industrial engine division, the engines they sell have the same blocks as the automotive ones and they're bound to have SAE bellhousings for them. It might be worth pursuing if you can get an engine for $350. I kind of lost interest in the VW option because there's plenty of other equipment that you can get a suitable engine and bellhousing from as one unit. Look at small loaders, forklifts, paving machines etc. One interesting possibility are older ThermoKing Reefer units, they have 4cyl Isuzu diesels that put out about 30hp. They have two speed governors that you have to have modified for variable speed use but I'm told that's easy enough. You can find these things in running condition anywhere from $50 to around $500. There's usually a few on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__Thermo-King-Isuzu-Diesel-Engine-skid-loader_W0QQitemZ150314959305QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQadiZ2865QQddiZ2811QQadnZCarQ20Q26Q20TruckQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116 http://cgi.ebay.ca/THERMOKING-DIESEL-REFRIGERATOR-DIESEL-ENGINE-COOLER_W0QQitemZ110324273289QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item110324273289&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1215|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318| 19082|19082|2008-12-14 17:33:25|prairiemaidca|V.W. engines|Hi All: I first started out with a totally rebuilt V.W. engine and we machined the bell housing to the comercial standadard to accept my hurth 25A gear. I purchased the 288-238 drive plate from Klassen diesel and thought I was away to the races. When I bolted it all together it was perfect. Untill I went to install the starter. The gear housing is just a bit to big in diameter to allow the starter to go into the hole. So it was either do it over with a smaller gear or change the whole game plan. I still have the engine and related parts except for the drive plate which I returned. If someone wants a v.w. ready to except a smaller gear I've got one. On the subject of reefer motors I trucked with those units for 28years and yes they are tough reliable motors. Just beware that a lot of them are totally worn out from thousands of hours of running time. Martin(Prairie Maid)| 19083|19079|2008-12-14 21:09:05|T & D Cain|Re: VW Jetta|I have some parts for the Pathfinder version, including the bell housing and damper drive plate -------no transmission. Problem would be the cost of freight from Australia. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Pronk Sent: Sunday, 14 December 2008 10:07 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] VW Jetta I found a 1984 Jetta Diesel (not turbo)with 250K on it for $350. I know that there has been a lot of talk about these and I don't think I should turn this down. The diesel rabbit I had had over 800K so I know it should have a few hours left in it. Could I use the 5 speed tranny in say 2nd gear and reverse? or would I be better to get a marine transmission? If I built a exhaust manifold with a water jacket and keel cooling would that be enough to keep it cool? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19084|19079|2008-12-14 21:09:34|T & D Cain|Re: VW Jetta|I have some parts for the Pathfinder version, including the bell housing and damper drive plate -------no transmission. Problem would be the cost of freight from Australia. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Pronk Sent: Sunday, 14 December 2008 10:07 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] VW Jetta [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19085|19085|2008-12-14 22:14:13|Gary Prebble|Rode|I was reading this post on crusiers forum http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f23/s-pacific-anchorage-depths-and- chain-length-21876.html Just wondering for the south seas what some of our "bin there" folk used. Thanks Gary| 19086|19085|2008-12-15 08:53:33|Carl Anderson|Re: Rode|Gary, Are you planning on a pacific cruise? We are in the process of redoing our anchoring system after much research. We now have a 20Kg bruce "knock-off" with 50' of 3/8" chain (both stainless) and 275' of 5/8" nylon 3 strand. All of that is for sale now. We are getting a 20Kg Manson Supreme with 100' of 5/16" G43 chain (both galvanized) and using the same nylon 3 strand. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Gary Prebble wrote: > > > I was reading this post on crusiers forum > http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f23/s-pacific-anchorage-depths-and- > > chain-length-21876.html > > Just wondering for the south seas what some of our "bin there" folk > used. > > Thanks > Gary > | 19087|19087|2008-12-15 11:58:42|James Pronk|saildrive|Hello Shane I see there is a new photo of a saildrive. Could you tell us about it? What is the engine you are using with it, were did you get it, what is the make? Thank you, James Pronk.| 19088|19085|2008-12-15 16:52:47|brentswain38|Re: Rode|When I go south of Baja I use 7X19 stainless wire rope with an eye every 50 feet. I put out enough for adequate scope, then loop a piece of poly rope thru the nearest eye for shock absorber. Some people use foats to keept he nylon off the bottom and to act as shock absorbers. Bob Griffiths on Ahwanee swore by floating poly rope, but that was before outboards becasme so common. I've used floats to kept the rode off the coral and to act as shock absorbers. Take enough poly for shorelines . The rich , who can afford nylon, are on the lookout for bleach bottles to keep their rodes from sinking and cutting on the cora, while the proletariat usually have enough poly for the job. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Gary, > > Are you planning on a pacific cruise? > We are in the process of redoing our anchoring system after much research. > We now have a 20Kg bruce "knock-off" with 50' of 3/8" chain (both > stainless) and 275' of 5/8" nylon 3 strand. > All of that is for sale now. > We are getting a 20Kg Manson Supreme with 100' of 5/16" G43 chain (both > galvanized) and using the same nylon 3 strand. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > I was reading this post on crusiers forum > > http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f23/s-pacific-anchorage-depths-and- > > > > chain-length-21876.html > > > > Just wondering for the south seas what some of our "bin there" folk > > used. > > > > Thanks > > Gary > > > | 19089|17500|2008-12-15 16:57:16|brentswain38|Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing|But they want nothing to do with a guy who uses public transit, or doesn't own a car. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > So if you drive a Tesla? > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shane Duncan" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:35 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing > > > sorry guys > i just couldn't resists this one > > > EcoGeeks get all the girls > http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/539/ecogeeks-get-all-the-girls.html > > Just in case you needed another reason to care about the environment: It > turns out girls dig guys who dig environmental technology. > according to a study conducted by GM as part of this year's Challenge X > competition: > Nearly 9 in 10 women (88 percent) say they'd rather chat up someone who owns > the latest fuel-efficient car versus the latest sports car. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: bendeac2000 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 7:37:15 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lattice mast or no mast kite sailing > > It might be the future of sailing but not this model- I kite surf, weigh > 75kg and use a > biggest kite of 20 square metres. The kite ship uses a kite of (i'm told) > 100 square > metres. 5 times as big. And the ship weighs? > > The problem with kites is any machine that can be sufficiently powered by a > kite can be > lifted by that kite. OK on a surfboard but problematic with a freighter. > > There's a lot of very interesting research going on building sheet-ability > into the kites > without affecting control-ability. Then the massive vertical power spikes > kites can > currently generate might be moderated. > > Until then the Beluga is a perfect example of industry's current approach to > sustainable > energy- a kite up the front where reporters can see it and a diesel thumping > away up the > back. > > ben deacon > www.kitesled.com > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyetrs3MQ0&feature=related > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnACybMhPs4&feature=related > > > > sailing without a mast > > could this be the future of sailing ships? > > its pretty windy 300m up plus reduces your capsize risk > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19090|19085|2008-12-15 20:13:02|Gary Prebble|Re: Rode|Hi Carl... good to hear from you..hope all is well. Just returned from crewing on a cat in the Caribe. In a word awesome! Now in Ontario at minus 20 celsius -40 windchill... so yes I am thinking about a cruise in southern waters. I will check out your anchoring system. Currently I use 40' of chain and 300' of 3 strand. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Gary, > > Are you planning on a pacific cruise? > We are in the process of redoing our anchoring system after much research. > We now have a 20Kg bruce "knock-off" with 50' of 3/8" chain (both > stainless) and 275' of 5/8" nylon 3 strand. > All of that is for sale now. > We are getting a 20Kg Manson Supreme with 100' of 5/16" G43 chain (both > galvanized) and using the same nylon 3 strand. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > I was reading this post on crusiers forum > > http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f23/s-pacific-anchorage- depths-and- > > > > chain-length-21876.html > > > > Just wondering for the south seas what some of our "bin there" folk > > used. > > > > Thanks > > Gary > > > | 19091|19091|2008-12-15 20:38:16|Shane Duncan|Re: saildrive Yanmar SD50|James the Sail drive unit is a Yanmar SD50 to go with a 39hp 3JH4E Yanmar marine diesel and a folding 18 inch prop I have the long single keel on my B31 so the sail drive will fit nicely and is well protected between the keel and the skeg with enough room for the prop to fold 39 hp is slightly over powered for a 31 footer but had a chat with a guy who owns a BS31 with the same engine and said it works well with plenty of back up when required. plus its a relatively light engine for its power. Yanmar makes a fibre glass bed for the leg and engine, so all you have to do is cut a 100x 200 mm slot in the hull then just glass the bed in to the hull. Obviously i cant do this, and will have to weld up a bed for the leg to bolt onto which i'm doing at the moment, will post pics of it as i go along. If anyone has any experience installing a sail drive on a steel boat please let me know The aluminium for my cabin top has just arrived will post some pics as its being made cheers shane ________________________________ From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 16 December, 2008 1:58:37 AM Subject: [origamiboats] saildrive Hello Shane I see there is a new photo of a saildrive. Could you tell us about it? What is the engine you are using with it, were did you get it, what is the make? Thank you, James Pronk. ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19092|19085|2008-12-16 00:10:05|Paul Wilson|Re: Rode|I am using 75 feet of 3/8 chain and 200 feet of 3/8 inch galv cable. I have some extra chain to add on if needed. I used to use 50 feet of chain and ¼ inch cable but I broke the cable once and like the extra weight. I used nylon rode in BC for years but I donÂ’t think I would feel good using nylon rode around coral in the tropics. I think itÂ’s too easy to get cut on a coral head sticking up. The lagoons can be deep but the coral heads stick up high. In Suvarov lagoon I was anchored in 70 feet of water but the coral heads came up to 20 or 30 feet or so of the surface, if I remember right. I had a similar situation in Wallace Island, although not as extreme. The rode would get wrapped up in the coral with the current shifts. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:53 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rode Gary, Are you planning on a pacific cruise? We are in the process of redoing our anchoring system after much research. We now have a 20Kg bruce "knock-off" with 50' of 3/8" chain (both stainless) and 275' of 5/8" nylon 3 strand. All of that is for sale now. We are getting a 20Kg Manson Supreme with 100' of 5/16" G43 chain (both galvanized) and using the same nylon 3 strand. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Gary Prebble wrote: > > > I was reading this post on crusiers forum > http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f23/s-pacific-anchorage-depths-and- > > chain-length-21876.html > > Just wondering for the south seas what some of our "bin there" folk > used. > > Thanks > Gary > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19093|19085|2008-12-16 07:43:49|Ben Okopnik|Re: Rode|On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 06:09:59PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I am using 75 feet of 3/8 chain and 200 feet of 3/8 inch galv cable. I have > some extra chain to add on if needed. I used to use 50 feet of chain and ¼ > inch cable but I broke the cable once and like the extra weight. I used > nylon rode in BC for years but I donÂ’t think I would feel good using nylon > rode around coral in the tropics. I think itÂ’s too easy to get cut on a > coral head sticking up. The lagoons can be deep but the coral heads stick > up high. In Suvarov lagoon I was anchored in 70 feet of water but the coral > heads came up to 20 or 30 feet or so of the surface, if I remember right. I > had a similar situation in Wallace Island, although not as extreme. The > rode would get wrapped up in the coral with the current shifts. Paul - How are you stowing the cable and chain? Do you have one of Brent's "spools"? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19094|19094|2008-12-16 09:37:13|first name last|http://handbooks.blogspot.com|http://handbooks.blogspot.com guys i wanna share the site for handbooks, standards, etc or by request. please visit and tell to your co friends Regards, Jc http://handbooks.blogspot.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19095|19085|2008-12-16 13:17:52|Paul Wilson|Re: Rode|Hi Ben, Yup, the only practical way to stow cable is on a spool. Using 3/8 inch cable is overkill but I chose it because it was available at the time, easy to splice, and I like the extra weight. I built up the center axle on the drum with some bits of wood to about 4 or 5 inch diameter so that the cable isn’t kinked too tightly around the drum. With smaller cable it wasn’t a problem but I was concerned about wrapping larger cable around too tight of a diameter. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:41 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rode On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 06:09:59PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I am using 75 feet of 3/8 chain and 200 feet of 3/8 inch galv cable. I have > some extra chain to add on if needed. I used to use 50 feet of chain and ¼ > inch cable but I broke the cable once and like the extra weight. I used > nylon rode in BC for years but I don’t think I would feel good using nylon > rode around coral in the tropics. I think it’s too easy to get cut on a > coral head sticking up. The lagoons can be deep but the coral heads stick > up high. In Suvarov lagoon I was anchored in 70 feet of water but the coral > heads came up to 20 or 30 feet or so of the surface, if I remember right. I > had a similar situation in Wallace Island, although not as extreme. The > rode would get wrapped up in the coral with the current shifts. Paul - How are you stowing the cable and chain? Do you have one of Brent's "spools"? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19096|19085|2008-12-16 18:15:03|brentswain38|Re: Rode|All metal rodes have been known to get wrapped around coral heads, and a swell lifting the boat breaks the rode. This is why one always needs a rope snubber, long enough to stretch as far as any swell would lift the boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I am using 75 feet of 3/8 chain and 200 feet of 3/8 inch galv cable. I have > some extra chain to add on if needed. I used to use 50 feet of chain and � > inch cable but I broke the cable once and like the extra weight. I used > nylon rode in BC for years but I don�t think I would feel good using nylon > rode around coral in the tropics. I think it�s too easy to get cut on a > coral head sticking up. The lagoons can be deep but the coral heads stick > up high. In Suvarov lagoon I was anchored in 70 feet of water but the coral > heads came up to 20 or 30 feet or so of the surface, if I remember right. I > had a similar situation in Wallace Island, although not as extreme. The > rode would get wrapped up in the coral with the current shifts. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Carl Anderson > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:53 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rode > > > > Gary, > > Are you planning on a pacific cruise? > We are in the process of redoing our anchoring system after much research. > We now have a 20Kg bruce "knock-off" with 50' of 3/8" chain (both > stainless) and 275' of 5/8" nylon 3 strand. > All of that is for sale now. > We are getting a 20Kg Manson Supreme with 100' of 5/16" G43 chain (both > galvanized) and using the same nylon 3 strand. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > I was reading this post on crusiers forum > > http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f23/s-pacific-anchorage-depths-and- > > > > chain-length-21876.html > > > > Just wondering for the south seas what some of our "bin there" folk > > used. > > > > Thanks > > Gary > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19097|19087|2008-12-16 18:17:55|brentswain38|Re: saildrive|While I now see saildrives made of stainless, earlier ones were all aluminium, and had constant , major corrosion problems. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Hello Shane > I see there is a new photo of a saildrive. Could you tell us about it? > What is the engine you are using with it, were did you get it, what is > the make? > Thank you, > James Pronk. > | 19098|18921|2008-12-16 18:20:04|brentswain38|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|Wax would stop your foam from sticking to the epoxy , a big mistake, with no benefit. Foam sticks to epoxy like shit to a goose. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > So what does the group think of this idea? > > The application would be epoxy tar then the wax rustproofing then > urathane foam. Maybe the rustproofing would only need to be sprayed > in the hard to access areas. This would save money and provide piece > of mind about the rust issues in these areas. By the way, I bought my > rustproofing at a local autobody store. All the stores in my area > (WInnipeg) seem to carry it. > > The only issue I would want to test is the ability of the foam to > stick to the rustproofing. In terms of fire rating, I don't see it as > an issue as if the fire gets down to the steel it's probably to late > anyway. > > Maybe during the cold dark winter I'll do a adhesion test > steel/epoxy/rustproofing/foam. > > Don B. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Urethane sparay foam sticks like shit to a blanket , over epoxy tar. > > You can't scrape it of with a chisel. > > Given the amount of corrosion with foam over bare steel one would > be > > foolish to foam over bare steel or primer. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Talking of foam, wich ones have a good adherence and wich ones > dont? > > > > > > anyone with an answer? > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Do you have a trade name, supplier ? > > > > > > > > Another, important consideration, is whether it is fire- > resistant and > > > > whether it�s toxic when on fire (some foam create cyanide etc > if in a > > > > fire !) > > > > AFAIK, foam is a major cost in a large hull, several thousand > dollars > > > > for a 16 m hull, for example. > > > > Also, any examples of marine use would be an important point ... > > > > > > > > I believe some std foams may not have sufficiently good > adherence ... > > > > and if this is the case, the hull may rust under the foam, that > > would be > > > > a disaster. > > > > OTOH ... a cheap foam would be very welcome. > > > > More details would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > Hannu > > > > > > > > > > > > dbourg2002 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" and > do not > > > > > have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this > crazy idea > > > > > when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply well > to > > steel > > > > > boats. > > > > > > > > > > In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I sprayed on > > with a > > > > > shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer nozzle. > This > > > > > stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail.) It has some > advantages as I > > > > > see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it self- > heals > > > > > should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra > protection > > > > > inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be > > inaccessable. > > > > > It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such but > I think > > > > > the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it would > > help as > > > > > protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with tar > epoxy. > > > > > > > > > > I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy > idea. > > > > > > > > > > Don B. > > > > > (Prairie gringo) > > > > > > > > > > __._,_ > > > > > > > > > > | 19099|19085|2008-12-16 19:46:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: Rode|On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:15:01PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > All metal rodes have been known to get wrapped around coral heads, and > a swell lifting the boat breaks the rode. This is why one always needs > a rope snubber, long enough to stretch as far as any swell would > lift the boat. That's damn solid advice. I learned this one on my own hide many years back. It was on an exposed coast way down south, where I'd sounded my way into a tiny bay that was only open to the SE to get some rest for the night (the winds had been out of NE or ENE for weeks.) Guess what: the wind veered to SE and howled all night long - and my all-chain rode wrapped around a coral head in the process. Worse yet, I hadn't yet learned to secure the chain so that it could be eased under load... in fact, it had slipped and *jammed*, while the bow was pumping in a 5-foot arc, with the rode doing its best to rip my bow off. I'm still amazed it didn't succeed. It took me a long, dangerous stretch of back-breaking work, and a hell of a lot of very serious risk-taking, to get it overhauled and to get a snubber on it. It took more work, with a mallet and a spike, to get that chain unlocked from around that cleat. We were still pounding like mad - but now, the boat wasn't being battered to hell (and doing her best to flip the mast overboard) every ten seconds. Worst night I ever spent on a boat, anywhere - and that includes hurricanes. Folks, I can be a damn fool as well as or better than anyone else. I do like to believe, however, that I won't be a damn fool in the same way twice: life's just too damn short for that. A snubber on any all-chain or all-wire rode is one of the articles of my religion. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19100|19087|2008-12-16 20:30:37|Shane Duncan|Re: saildrive|The sail drive it has a large sacrificial anode around the prop (can bee seen in the pic) and galvanic isolators are available the leg attaches to the hull via a large thick flexible rubber mount so the two will not be touching but will let you know re corrosion problems cheers shane ________________________________ From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 17 December, 2008 8:17:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: saildrive While I now see saildrives made of stainless, earlier ones were all aluminium, and had constant , major  corrosion problems. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Hello Shane > I see there is a new photo of a saildrive. Could you tell us about it? > What is the engine you are using with it, were did you get it, what is > the make? > Thank you, > James Pronk. > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/?p1=other&p2=au&p3=tagline [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19101|19085|2008-12-16 20:41:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Rode|On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 07:17:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Ben, > > Yup, the only practical way to stow cable is on a spool. Using 3/8 > inch cable is overkill but I chose it because it was available at the > time, easy to splice, and I like the extra weight. I built up the > center axle on the drum with some bits of wood to about 4 or 5 inch > diameter so that the cable isn’t kinked too tightly around the drum. > With smaller cable it wasn’t a problem but I was concerned about > wrapping larger cable around too tight of a diameter. Thanks, Paul; that all makes sense. I'd be a bit suspicious of wood on the axle - I still remember seeing the aluminum hub of a fishing reel that had collapsed after the fishing line was wound onto it under too much tension - but I'm planning on building a spool like that on Ulysses sometime in the next few years (frankly, when my current chain shows signs of wearing out!), and I'm doing a bit of mental info-hoarding before I do. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19102|19094|2008-12-17 08:24:20|first name last|Re: http://handbooks.blogspot.com|http://handbooks.blogspot.com guys i wanna share the site for handbooks, standards, etc or by request. please visit and tell to your co friends Regards, Jc http://handbooks.blogspot.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19103|19079|2008-12-17 13:20:18|thesnotrocket|Re: VW Jetta|I just stumbled across a Finnish company that makes marinizing parts for auto diesels including VW's. http://www.venevarustaja.fi/ Here is their bellhousing catalogue. http://www.venevarustaja.fi/data/bellhousingcatalogue.html --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "thesnotrocket" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > > > It would be better, yeah, but it's a lot of fun finding one that'll > > fit without engineering the adaptor plates. Check what SAE size the > > Jetta diesel bell housing mount is and start from there. > > I looked into this a while ago, the VW diesel cars don't have a > standard SAE flange on the bellhousing but > http://www.lancingmarine.com/ makes one that does as well as a bunch > of other marinizing parts for them, pricey though. Another > possibility would be from VW's industrial engine division, the engines > they sell have the same blocks as the automotive ones and they're > bound to have SAE bellhousings for them. It might be worth pursuing > if you can get an engine for $350. I kind of lost interest in the VW > option because there's plenty of other equipment that you can get a > suitable engine and bellhousing from as one unit. Look at small > loaders, forklifts, paving machines etc. One interesting > possibility are older ThermoKing Reefer units, they have 4cyl Isuzu > diesels that put out about 30hp. They have two speed governors that > you have to have modified for variable speed use but I'm told that's > easy enough. You can find these things in running condition anywhere > from $50 to around $500. There's usually a few on eBay. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__Thermo-King-Isuzu-Diesel-Engine-skid-loader_W0QQitemZ150314959305QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQadiZ2865QQddiZ2811QQadnZCarQ20Q26Q20TruckQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116 > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/THERMOKING-DIESEL-REFRIGERATOR-DIESEL-ENGINE-COOLER_W0QQitemZ110324273289QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item110324273289&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1215|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318 > | 19104|19085|2008-12-17 14:09:58|Paul Wilson|Re: Rode|I was a little skeptical about the wood as well but it lasted about 10 years before needing replacing. I used a hardwood and I think the grease kept it from rotting. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 2:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rode On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 07:17:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Ben, > > Yup, the only practical way to stow cable is on a spool. Using 3/8 > inch cable is overkill but I chose it because it was available at the > time, easy to splice, and I like the extra weight. I built up the > center axle on the drum with some bits of wood to about 4 or 5 inch > diameter so that the cable isn’t kinked too tightly around the drum. > With smaller cable it wasn’t a problem but I was concerned about > wrapping larger cable around too tight of a diameter. Thanks, Paul; that all makes sense. I'd be a bit suspicious of wood on the axle - I still remember seeing the aluminum hub of a fishing reel that had collapsed after the fishing line was wound onto it under too much tension - but I'm planning on building a spool like that on Ulysses sometime in the next few years (frankly, when my current chain shows signs of wearing out!), and I'm doing a bit of mental info-hoarding before I do. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19105|18921|2008-12-17 15:32:59|will jones|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|I don't know about geese around you, crap doesn't stick to them, they are teflon, because it is everywhere. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Tue, 12/16/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: crazy rustproofing idea To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 6:20 PM Wax would stop your foam from sticking to the epoxy , a big mistake, with no benefit. Foam sticks to epoxy like shit to a goose. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > So what does the group think of this idea? > > The application would be epoxy tar then the wax rustproofing then > urathane foam. Maybe the rustproofing would only need to be sprayed > in the hard to access areas. This would save money and provide piece > of mind about the rust issues in these areas. By the way, I bought my > rustproofing at a local autobody store. All the stores in my area > (WInnipeg) seem to carry it. > > The only issue I would want to test is the ability of the foam to > stick to the rustproofing. In terms of fire rating, I don't see it as > an issue as if the fire gets down to the steel it's probably to late > anyway. > > Maybe during the cold dark winter I'll do a adhesion test > steel/epoxy/ rustproofing/ foam. > > Don B. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Urethane sparay foam sticks like shit to a blanket , over epoxy tar. > > You can't scrape it of with a chisel. > > Given the amount of corrosion with foam over bare steel one would > be > > foolish to foam over bare steel or primer. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Martin Demers" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Talking of foam, wich ones have a good adherence and wich ones > dont? > > > > > > anyone with an answer? > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Do you have a trade name, supplier ? > > > > > > > > Another, important consideration, is whether it is fire- > resistant and > > > > whether it�s toxic when on fire (some foam create cyanide etc > if in a > > > > fire !) > > > > AFAIK, foam is a major cost in a large hull, several thousand > dollars > > > > for a 16 m hull, for example. > > > > Also, any examples of marine use would be an important point ... > > > > > > > > I believe some std foams may not have sufficiently good > adherence ... > > > > and if this is the case, the hull may rust under the foam, that > > would be > > > > a disaster. > > > > OTOH ... a cheap foam would be very welcome. > > > > More details would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > Hannu > > > > > > > > > > > > dbourg2002 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" and > do not > > > > > have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this > crazy idea > > > > > when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply well > to > > steel > > > > > boats. > > > > > > > > > > In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I sprayed on > > with a > > > > > shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer nozzle. > This > > > > > stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail. ) It has some > advantages as I > > > > > see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it self- > heals > > > > > should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra > protection > > > > > inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be > > inaccessable. > > > > > It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such but > I think > > > > > the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it would > > help as > > > > > protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with tar > epoxy. > > > > > > > > > > I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy > idea. > > > > > > > > > > Don B. > > > > > (Prairie gringo) > > > > > > > > > > __._,_ > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19106|18921|2008-12-17 15:50:30|James Pronk|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|I think it sticks more like shit to a blanket! James Pronk. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > I don't know about geese around you, crap doesn't stick to them, they are teflon, because it is everywhere. > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: crazy rustproofing idea > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 6:20 PM > > > > > > > Wax would stop your foam from sticking to the epoxy , a big mistake, > with no benefit. Foam sticks to epoxy like shit to a goose. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > > > So what does the group think of this idea? > > > > The application would be epoxy tar then the wax rustproofing then > > urathane foam. Maybe the rustproofing would only need to be sprayed > > in the hard to access areas. This would save money and provide piece > > of mind about the rust issues in these areas. By the way, I bought my > > rustproofing at a local autobody store. All the stores in my area > > (WInnipeg) seem to carry it. > > > > The only issue I would want to test is the ability of the foam to > > stick to the rustproofing. In terms of fire rating, I don't see it as > > an issue as if the fire gets down to the steel it's probably to late > > anyway. > > > > Maybe during the cold dark winter I'll do a adhesion test > > steel/epoxy/ rustproofing/ foam. > > > > Don B. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Urethane sparay foam sticks like shit to a blanket , over epoxy tar. > > > You can't scrape it of with a chisel. > > > Given the amount of corrosion with foam over bare steel one would > > be > > > foolish to foam over bare steel or primer. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Martin Demers" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Talking of foam, wich ones have a good adherence and wich ones > > dont? > > > > > > > > anyone with an answer? > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Do you have a trade name, supplier ? > > > > > > > > > > Another, important consideration, is whether it is fire- > > resistant and > > > > > whether it�s toxic when on fire (some foam create cyanide etc > > if in a > > > > > fire !) > > > > > AFAIK, foam is a major cost in a large hull, several thousand > > dollars > > > > > for a 16 m hull, for example. > > > > > Also, any examples of marine use would be an important point ... > > > > > > > > > > I believe some std foams may not have sufficiently good > > adherence ... > > > > > and if this is the case, the hull may rust under the foam, that > > > would be > > > > > a disaster. > > > > > OTOH ... a cheap foam would be very welcome. > > > > > More details would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > Hannu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dbourg2002 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" and > > do not > > > > > > have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this > > crazy idea > > > > > > when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply well > > to > > > steel > > > > > > boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I sprayed on > > > with a > > > > > > shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer nozzle. > > This > > > > > > stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail. ) It has some > > advantages as I > > > > > > see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it self- > > heals > > > > > > should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra > > protection > > > > > > inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be > > > inaccessable. > > > > > > It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such but > > I think > > > > > > the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it would > > > help as > > > > > > protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with tar > > epoxy. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy > > idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Don B. > > > > > > (Prairie gringo) > > > > > > > > > > > > __._,_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19107|19085|2008-12-17 18:25:41|brentswain38|Re: Rode|I fill mine up with rope. More usefull. A length of floating poly on the end will keep it afloat if you are caught on a lee shore and have to leave your ground tackle behind for a day or two. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I was a little skeptical about the wood as well but it lasted about 10 years before needing replacing. I used a hardwood and I think the grease kept it from rotting. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 2:39 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rode > > > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 07:17:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > > Yup, the only practical way to stow cable is on a spool. Using 3/8 > > inch cable is overkill but I chose it because it was available at the > > time, easy to splice, and I like the extra weight. I built up the > > center axle on the drum with some bits of wood to about 4 or 5 inch > > diameter so that the cable isn’t kinked too tightly around the drum. > > With smaller cable it wasn’t a problem but I was concerned about > > wrapping larger cable around too tight of a diameter. > > Thanks, Paul; that all makes sense. I'd be a bit suspicious of wood on > the axle - I still remember seeing the aluminum hub of a fishing reel > that had collapsed after the fishing line was wound onto it under too > much tension - but I'm planning on building a spool like that on Ulysses > sometime in the next few years (frankly, when my current chain shows > signs of wearing out!), and I'm doing a bit of mental info-hoarding > before I do. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19108|19085|2008-12-17 18:38:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: Rode|On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:25:39PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I fill mine up with rope. More usefull. A length of floating poly on > the end will keep it afloat if you are caught on a lee shore and have > to leave your ground tackle behind for a day or two. *Nice*. Wonder why I didn't think of it - that deals with all of my concerns about pressure on the hub, having rode to pay out at the end, and having it buoyed if you have to cut it loose in a hurry. That's exactly what I'm going to do when I build that windlass. Thanks, Brent. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19109|19085|2008-12-17 18:38:58|brentswain38|Re: Rode|2 inch sch 40 is minimum for the centre of the spool. Don't go any smaller, as I saw Evan do recently.I suggested to the owner that he pile the last of the rode, when it is vertical and the load on it is greatest, on the end of the spool near the well supported end bearing , where it has little chance of bending the centre pipe.Leave a gap there when you are filling the spool up , for the last of the rode to fill so it won't pile up and stop the drum from turning. Bigger on the centre pipe won't hurt. I am going back to square cut gears that can be easily reversed, and the handle and pawls can be put on the other end , if you pull a shoulder, like I did recently. A square cut gear lets you release the rode under load without having to back the drum up, which I could have sure used when I went agound at Xmas Island . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I was a little skeptical about the wood as well but it lasted about 10 years before needing replacing. I used a hardwood and I think the grease kept it from rotting. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 2:39 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rode > > > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 07:17:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > > Yup, the only practical way to stow cable is on a spool. Using 3/8 > > inch cable is overkill but I chose it because it was available at the > > time, easy to splice, and I like the extra weight. I built up the > > center axle on the drum with some bits of wood to about 4 or 5 inch > > diameter so that the cable isn’t kinked too tightly around the drum. > > With smaller cable it wasn’t a problem but I was concerned about > > wrapping larger cable around too tight of a diameter. > > Thanks, Paul; that all makes sense. I'd be a bit suspicious of wood on > the axle - I still remember seeing the aluminum hub of a fishing reel > that had collapsed after the fishing line was wound onto it under too > much tension - but I'm planning on building a spool like that on Ulysses > sometime in the next few years (frankly, when my current chain shows > signs of wearing out!), and I'm doing a bit of mental info-hoarding > before I do. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19110|18921|2008-12-17 18:41:37|brentswain38|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|OK. I'll stick to the blanket comparison from now on. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > > I think it sticks more like shit to a blanket! > James Pronk. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones > wrote: > > > > I don't know about geese around you, crap doesn't stick to them, > they are teflon, because it is everywhere. > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: crazy rustproofing idea > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 6:20 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wax would stop your foam from sticking to the epoxy , a big mistake, > > with no benefit. Foam sticks to epoxy like shit to a goose. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "dbourg2002" > wrote: > > > > > > So what does the group think of this idea? > > > > > > The application would be epoxy tar then the wax rustproofing then > > > urathane foam. Maybe the rustproofing would only need to be > sprayed > > > in the hard to access areas. This would save money and provide > piece > > > of mind about the rust issues in these areas. By the way, I > bought my > > > rustproofing at a local autobody store. All the stores in my area > > > (WInnipeg) seem to carry it. > > > > > > The only issue I would want to test is the ability of the foam to > > > stick to the rustproofing. In terms of fire rating, I don't see > it as > > > an issue as if the fire gets down to the steel it's probably to > late > > > anyway. > > > > > > Maybe during the cold dark winter I'll do a adhesion test > > > steel/epoxy/ rustproofing/ foam. > > > > > > Don B. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Urethane sparay foam sticks like shit to a blanket , over epoxy > tar. > > > > You can't scrape it of with a chisel. > > > > Given the amount of corrosion with foam over bare steel one > would > > > be > > > > foolish to foam over bare steel or primer. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Martin Demers" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Talking of foam, wich ones have a good adherence and wich > ones > > > dont? > > > > > > > > > > anyone with an answer? > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have a trade name, supplier ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Another, important consideration, is whether it is fire- > > > resistant and > > > > > > whether it�s toxic when on fire (some foam create cyanide > etc > > > if in a > > > > > > fire !) > > > > > > AFAIK, foam is a major cost in a large hull, several > thousand > > > dollars > > > > > > for a 16 m hull, for example. > > > > > > Also, any examples of marine use would be an important > point ... > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe some std foams may not have sufficiently good > > > adherence ... > > > > > > and if this is the case, the hull may rust under the foam, > that > > > > would be > > > > > > a disaster. > > > > > > OTOH ... a cheap foam would be very welcome. > > > > > > More details would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hannu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dbourg2002 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't post very often as I'm still on the "treadmill" > and > > > do not > > > > > > > have the vast experience of this group. Still, I had this > > > crazy idea > > > > > > > when I was rustproofing my car project that might apply > well > > > to > > > > steel > > > > > > > boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my car I used some wax based rustproofing that I > sprayed on > > > > with a > > > > > > > shutz gun that I put a length of hose on for a longer > nozzle. > > > This > > > > > > > stuff was fairly cheap ($29/gal-retail. ) It has some > > > advantages as I > > > > > > > see it, these being: cheap, it creeps into crevises, it > self- > > > heals > > > > > > > should it be scratched, it will mist into all cavities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking maybe it would be suitable for some extra > > > protection > > > > > > > inside a steel boat on those areas which would later be > > > > inaccessable. > > > > > > > It isn't intended to take the place of tar epoxy or such > but > > > I think > > > > > > > the idea may have merit as extra protection. I think it > would > > > > help as > > > > > > > protection on those almost impossible areas to paint with > tar > > > epoxy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't mind if this thread if flamed, it's just my crazy > > > idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don B. > > > > > > > (Prairie gringo) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __._,_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19111|18921|2008-12-17 19:46:07|mark hamill|Re: crazy rustproofing idea|I'm way off topic here but when I was a zookeeper I nearly killed myself slipping on goose and swan poop--like grease and just as sticky. I think the goose poop you are talking about has more fibre because of all the grass they eat. Get down close and see if I am not right;) > I don't know about geese around you, crap doesn't stick to them, they are teflon, because it is everywhere. > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > | 19112|19085|2008-12-18 08:52:23|audeojude|Re: Rode|I still remember seeing the aluminum hub of a fishing reel > that had collapsed after the fishing line was wound onto it under too > much tension I think that this is only because the fishing line is a bit stretchy. Each wrap around the spool that is two tight is stretched and therefore has compressive tension around the spool. The additive tension of hundreds of wraps would add up quite a bit. Chain or cable wouldn't do this. Nylon rode would though. I find it hard to imagine 2 inch schedule 40 pipe crushing easily from nylon anchor rode doing this though. :) we are probably talking in excess of a hundred thousand lbs of force needed to crumple it that way, the strength of the steel + the strength of the round shape enhancing that strength.| 19113|19085|2008-12-18 19:26:26|brentswain38|Re: Rode|The pipe would never crush, but if you have the rode wound around the centre with the anchor under a rock ledge and a swell lifts the boat , you could easily bend the middle of the spool. Winding the last of the rode on the end minimises this possiblility, altho going smaller on the centre pipe is a sure sign of no cruising experience. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > I still remember seeing the aluminum hub of a fishing reel > > that had collapsed after the fishing line was wound onto it under too > > much tension > > I think that this is only because the fishing line is a bit stretchy. > Each wrap around the spool that is two tight is stretched and > therefore has compressive tension around the spool. The additive > tension of hundreds of wraps would add up quite a bit. Chain or cable > wouldn't do this. Nylon rode would though. I find it hard to imagine 2 > inch schedule 40 pipe crushing easily from nylon anchor rode doing > this though. :) we are probably talking in excess of a hundred > thousand lbs of force needed to crumple it that way, the strength of > the steel + the strength of the round shape enhancing that strength. > | 19114|19001|2008-12-18 19:36:33|brentswain38|Common screwups|The front engine web and the angles supporting the engine should be sealed to the hull to keep any oil drippings in place, and not free to run the full length of the bilge. Sure,you expect your new engine to have no oil leaks , but one only has to look under relatively new, expensive cars to see how unrealistic this dream is.They all leak eventually. When the boat heels in a knockdown, any oil can run around the ends of the engine web, which is why the angles supporting the engine have to be continued down to the hull with plate and fully welded, oiltight. One owner had vibration from his VW cause the paint to fail at the ends of the engine web ,about three feet out from the engine, so had to continue the webs further out, almost to the chine. This addition doesn't have to be more than a couple of inches deep. Anchor rollers six inches wide won't hold two big anchors side by side. I replaced my six inch wide one with an 8 inch wide one, a quick and simple job , once the roller was built. Now I can leave two 55 lb deltas there. Brent| 19115|19085|2008-12-19 15:49:27|Paul Thompson|Rode|Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > Yup, the only practical way to stow cable is on a spool. Using 3/8 inch cable is overkill but I chose it because it was available at the time, easy to splice, and I like the extra weight. I built up the center axle on the drum with some bits of wood to about 4 or 5 inch diameter so that the cable isn't kinked too tightly around the drum. With smaller cable it wasn't a problem but I was concerned about wrapping larger cable around too tight of a diameter. > Hi Paul (Wilson), How well has the galvanised cable lasted? What did you do to preserve it/extend it's life? I am about to purchase my cable and must decide between galvanised or stainless. Paul Thompson| 19116|19116|2008-12-19 15:57:32|Paul Thompson|Cleaning up after foaming|Can those of you that have had there boats spray foamed please tell me what method and tools they used to clean up afterwards. I have just had La Chica done and there is a fair amount of cleaning up to be done now. Advice and input from those who have done it, would be most welcome. For those interested, La Chica is not a BS design but a traditional 32ft, heavy displacement double- ender. Displacement is about 18 000 lbs , that would be similar to the BS36 and area to be covered with foam should also be similar. It cost me NZ$ 1 200.00 as of yesterday. Thanks, Paul Thompson| 19117|19116|2008-12-19 17:20:53|brentswain38|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|Sanding is the only way to get it off bulkheads and wood surfaces if you haven't masked it first. I highly recommend masking before foaming. To slice the high spots off, I take a fish fillet knife, heat it red near the handle , then bend it to a 45 degree angle. This gives you a knife that lets you slice the high spots off, far easier to deal with than the dust from grinding it off( dust itchier than fibreglass, and you don't want to inhale it.) Painting it with cheap or free latex from the recycling centres drastically improves it's fire resistance. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Thompson" wrote: > > Can those of you that have had there boats spray foamed please tell me > what method and tools they used to clean up afterwards. I have just > had La Chica done and there is a fair amount of cleaning up to be done > now. Advice and input from those who have done it, would be most > welcome. > > For those interested, La Chica is not a BS design but a traditional > 32ft, heavy displacement double- ender. Displacement is about 18 000 > lbs , that would be similar to the BS36 and area to be covered with > foam should also be similar. It cost me NZ$ 1 200.00 as of yesterday. > > Thanks, > > Paul Thompson > | 19118|19085|2008-12-19 17:24:04|brentswain38|Re: Rode|I use 7X19 stainless because I got it very cheap at second hand boat places. It does get meathooks from broken strands from time to time, stainless being far more brittle than galv. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Thompson" wrote: > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > > > Yup, the only practical way to stow cable is on a spool. Using 3/8 inch cable is overkill but I chose it because it was available at the time, easy to splice, and I like the extra weight. I built up the center axle on the drum with some bits of wood to about 4 or 5 inch diameter so that the cable isn't kinked too tightly around the drum. With smaller cable it wasn't a problem but I was concerned about wrapping larger cable around too tight of a diameter. > > > > Hi Paul (Wilson), > > How well has the galvanised cable lasted? What did you do to preserve > it/extend it's life? I am about to purchase my cable and must decide > between galvanised or stainless. > > Paul Thompson > | 19119|19116|2008-12-19 19:10:30|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|Would a hot wire cutter work on this stuff, in order to remove the high spots? --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 4:20 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cleaning up after foaming Sanding is the only way to get it off bulkheads and wood surfaces if you haven't masked it first. I highly recommend masking before foaming. To slice the high spots off, I take a fish fillet knife, heat it red near the handle , then bend it to a 45 degree angle. This gives you a knife that lets you slice the high spots off, far easier to deal with than the dust from grinding it off( dust itchier than fibreglass, and you don't want to inhale it.) Painting it with cheap or free latex from the recycling centres drastically improves it's fire resistance. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Thompson" wrote: > > Can those of you that have had there boats spray foamed please tell me > what method and tools they used to clean up afterwards. I have just > had La Chica done and there is a fair amount of cleaning up to be done > now. Advice and input from those who have done it, would be most > welcome. > > For those interested, La Chica is not a BS design but a traditional > 32ft, heavy displacement double- ender. Displacement is about 18 000 > lbs , that would be similar to the BS36 and area to be covered with > foam should also be similar. It cost me NZ$ 1 200.00 as of yesterday. > > Thanks, > > Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19120|19116|2008-12-19 19:16:47|djackson99@aol.com|Price of Steel|Just got a quote today for some more steel, at 42 cents a pound.? We paid 61 cents a pound in June.? ...oh well, it's just money.?? The good thing is that the steel company across the street will let us dumpster dive in there scrap bins and sell to us at scrap yard prices. :) Doug and Kay www.SubmarineBoat.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19121|19121|2008-12-19 20:14:19|thesnotrocket|Isuzu/ThermoKing reefer diesels|Hi all, I've done some more internet sleuthing and things look promising :) Here's what I've found so far. The vast majority of units have the c201 engine putting out around 30hp continuous (I can't find definite specs, one guy on a forum claims 27 HP @ 2300rpm). The c223 was possibly used in some. Apparently these are extremely reliable engines and are known to run for 30000 hours in reefer applications so if you can find a low time unit it should last forever in a boat. They're so cheap that rebuilding one would probably be pointless. Here's the best part: The flywheel housing is a standard SAE 6 pattern with the bottom two holes undrilled. This could be easily rectified with a transfer punch and a drill press once you have the mounting plate for the transmission. Unfortunately it looks like the smallest mounting plate available for Twin Disc transmissions is SAE 5 (lower number = bigger) but the ZF 6M through the ZF 15MA are available with the SAE 6 pattern. It's really too bad the engine doesn't come with a SAE 5 pattern but I guess the gods don't like to make things too easy for us heretics ;) The ZF 15MA has a continuous duty rating between 33 and 40hp (depending on ratio) at 2600rpm which should be plenty of margin for a sailboat, it's also an 8 degree down angle unit which is nice. I'm not sure if the s stock flywheel will work, apparently it has holes with rubber bushings in it that engage with pins to drive the compressor in the reefer. At the least you'd have to get it drilled and tapped to fit the damper plate. This is all sounding pretty good to me so far so I think I'll start looking for an engine unless I'm missing something obvious that would make this unworkable. I'm landlocked in the praries and have no practical experience with marine diesels so I'm very interested in hearing what you guys think of this scheme.| 19122|19085|2008-12-19 23:34:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Rode|How well has the galvanised cable lasted? What did you do to preserve it/extend it's life? I am about to purchase my cable and must decide between galvanised or stainless. Paul Thompson Usually 2 to 3 years. I have just used regular axle grease once every month or two when I am not so lazy. Using the 3/8 cable I will let it rust a bit more since it is so much stronger than ¼ inch. I have usually tried to use the cable that is loose lay and has a hemp or fiber core for a center. It seems to hold some lubricant in the core and makes it last longer. ItÂ’s also usually cheaper and easier to splice. I have been able to get cable cheap and easily throughout the Pacific. Finding chain has been more of a problem and I have had the galvanizing go on cheap chain after 6 months. Suva lagoon in Fiji took the galvanizing off new chain in 6 weeks. There must be a lot of nasties in that mud! If I could get some larger SS 7 x 19 I might try it but I wonÂ’t pay the price for new since the galv is so cheap. I know there is special plastic coated wire for offshore trawlers but I suspect it is expensive. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19123|19121|2008-12-20 05:42:04|Denis Buggy|Re: Isuzu/ThermoKing reefer diesels|snotrocket . spend a little time with a fuel man who is familiar with the reefer units and see can you disarm the governor on the fuel pump as it may have only two modes fast idle or full throttle as the governor has to be set up for only two instructions check that it is variable or you will have little or no control over it . since they are good and cheap and only approx 30 hp would two engines be a huge extravagance . make sure your flywheel is drilled using an indexing head and done on a milling machine as you can check the 6 --8--or 10 bolt centres with the digital readout first as it will check your marks prior to drilling using the x--y axis on the readout . if you get this wrong it will start and go and you will have the party the whole works and some miles from shore you will find out what an offset flywheel is capable of doing to a gearbox . this is why your flywheel is presently rubber bushed to absorb shock from and to the compressor and to provide a sweet alignment spot for the drive as all the forces negotiate with the rubber and all win at the same time regards denis buggy A HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL FROM IRELAND ---------NOLLAIG SHONA GHUIT ----- Original Message ----- From: thesnotrocket To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:14 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Isuzu/ThermoKing reefer diesels Hi all, I've done some more internet sleuthing and things look promising :) Here's what I've found so far. The vast majority of units have the c201 engine putting out around 30hp continuous (I can't find definite specs, one guy on a forum claims 27 HP @ 2300rpm). The c223 was possibly used in some. Apparently these are extremely reliable engines and are known to run for 30000 hours in reefer applications so if you can find a low time unit it should last forever in a boat. They're so cheap that rebuilding one would probably be pointless. Here's the best part: The flywheel housing is a standard SAE 6 pattern with the bottom two holes undrilled. This could be easily rectified with a transfer punch and a drill press once you have the mounting plate for the transmission. Unfortunately it looks like the smallest mounting plate available for Twin Disc transmissions is SAE 5 (lower number = bigger) but the ZF 6M through the ZF 15MA are available with the SAE 6 pattern. It's really too bad the engine doesn't come with a SAE 5 pattern but I guess the gods don't like to make things too easy for us heretics ;) The ZF 15MA has a continuous duty rating between 33 and 40hp (depending on ratio) at 2600rpm which should be plenty of margin for a sailboat, it's also an 8 degree down angle unit which is nice. I'm not sure if the s stock flywheel will work, apparently it has holes with rubber bushings in it that engage with pins to drive the compressor in the reefer. At the least you'd have to get it drilled and tapped to fit the damper plate. This is all sounding pretty good to me so far so I think I'll start looking for an engine unless I'm missing something obvious that would make this unworkable. I'm landlocked in the praries and have no practical experience with marine diesels so I'm very interested in hearing what you guys think of this scheme. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19124|19124|2008-12-20 10:11:01|Claude|Weather on the coast|Hello Brent and anyone else living on a boat on the BC coast. I see that it is -19 this morning in Nanaimo. This must be terrible for you. I think that it will warm up for christmas. Take care Claude| 19125|19124|2008-12-20 16:20:50|brentswain38|Re: Weather on the coast|Karl, my neighbour on a 36 lives aboard next to me. He went to Nanaimo last nite and said Nanaimo was much colder and snowier than Comox. Minus 19 in Nanaimo and over a foot of snow, minus 7 in Comox with six inches of snow. I stocked up on firewood before it had a chance to get buried and have kept the boat cozy and warm. I only go the couple of blocks to the library to do internet, otherwise hibernate ,listen to the radio and read, Not a rough time by any stretch of the imagination , especially when I hear on the radio how the consumers are faring. Insulation, a good woodstove , and lots of time make weather far less relevant. I still think of Mexico. I'd be there but for.. well you know the rest. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > Hello Brent and anyone else living on a boat on the BC coast. > I see that it is -19 this morning in Nanaimo. > This must be terrible for you. > I think that it will warm up for christmas. > > Take care Claude > | 19126|19126|2008-12-20 16:33:02|brentswain38|Boatbuilding season|The best time to start building a steel hull is outside the summer heat season, preferably spring or fall. Metal working means wearing heavier , spatter proof clothing , and you don't have the option of working in shorts , no matter how hot it gets. Evan and I once talked about having a winter rate and a much higher summer rate, but the work never got busy enough to do it. My last client only had summer off so it wasn't an option . However there is definitely a penalty for doing it in the summer as the heat makes any given job take substantially longer, and thus more expensive. Some talk of people in higher lattitudes being far more productive than people in the tropics. I think if the same high lattitude people tried working in tropical conditions they would be far less productive than their tropical friends . The human body just cant take as much work in the heat, or work as efficiently.. Once the hull is up and decks and cabin on, you can easily put a cover over it to keep you in the shade, and , or paint it with an epoxy compatible white primer. Putting the building proccess of till summer looks attaractive to those who haven't worked with steel, outside in the heat, when you can fry an egg on the plate.. Brent| 19127|19079|2008-12-21 08:05:51|James Pronk|Re: VW Jetta|Thank you All I am going ahead and buying the Jetta. Is the any photos or files of a VW installed into one of Brent's boats? I remember seeing one but I just can't find it. Thank you once again James Pronk| 19128|19126|2008-12-21 08:17:05|Wally Paine|Re: Boatbuilding season|Under similar circumstances many years ago I'd start very early in the morning, knock off about 10:00, start again in the late afternoon and work on into the evening. Farm labour, on bright moonlit nights, often had finished their piecework when the day began. And mineworkers (shovel and wheelbarrow stuff and very hard work) with the benefit of electric lighting usually had their work ready for inspection at daybreak and were finished an hour later. Try and work around the worst of the heat. Wally Paine  --- On Sat, 20/12/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Boatbuilding season To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 20 December, 2008, 9:33 PM The best time to start building a steel hull is outside the summer heat season, preferably spring or fall. Metal working means wearing heavier , spatter proof clothing , and you don't have the option of working in shorts , no matter how hot it gets. Evan and I once talked about having a winter rate and a much higher summer rate, but the work never got busy enough to do it. My last client only had summer off so it wasn't an option . However there is definitely a penalty for doing it in the summer as the heat makes any given job take substantially longer, and thus more expensive. Some talk of people in higher lattitudes being far more productive than people in the tropics. I think if the same high lattitude people tried working in tropical conditions they would be far less productive than their tropical friends . The human body just cant take as much work in the heat, or work as efficiently. . Once the hull is up and decks and cabin on, you can easily put a cover over it to keep you in the shade, and , or paint it with an epoxy compatible white primer. Putting the building proccess of till summer looks attaractive to those who haven't worked with steel, outside in the heat, when you can fry an egg on the plate.. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19129|19129|2008-12-21 08:48:27|first name last|new books post at handbooks.blogspot.com|new books post at handbooks.blogspot.com thanks [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19130|19130|2008-12-21 09:22:17|prairiemaidca|Minus 34c on the Prairie this AM.|Prairie Maid sits under a blanket of snow and the temps are so low that going out to work in her even with her 220 heater is not appealing. To all of you owners and builders and dreamers, stay warm and safe and all the best of season to you. Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid)| 19131|19130|2008-12-21 09:56:50|James Pronk|Re: Minus 34c on the Prairie this AM.|Today is just the first day of winter and the shortest day-light day. So it will still be cold for a little longer but the days are going to get longer. James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Prairie Maid sits under a blanket of snow and the temps are so low that > going out to work in her even with her 220 heater is not appealing. To > all of you owners and builders and dreamers, stay warm and safe and all > the best of season to you. Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid) > | 19132|19130|2008-12-21 10:14:14|Aaron Williams|Re: Minus 34c on the Prairie this AM.|I guess I will quit complaining to my wife about it being to cold to work on my boat. Its only been down to -3 f or -20c here in Kenai. Its is almost a heat wave this week 28 f above. Aaron --- On Sun, 12/21/08, prairiemaidca wrote: > From: prairiemaidca > Subject: [origamiboats] Minus 34c on the Prairie this AM. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, December 21, 2008, 5:22 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Prairie Maid sits under a blanket of snow > and the temps are so low that > > going out to work in her even with her 220 heater is not > appealing. To > > all of you owners and builders and dreamers, stay warm and > safe and all > > the best of season to you. Martin and Betty (Prairie > Maid) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 19133|19124|2008-12-21 11:46:32|Michael Casling|Re: Weather on the coast|That must be the wind chill, or " feels Like " temperature that is being posted. Current Nanaimo is minus 2 according tp the web site. Night before was the coldest so far, minus four at my place, bottom of Gabriola, and about two degrees colder at the top end accross from Nanaimo. Folks around here have been saying it is minus a bunch while there is a puddle of liquid water nearby. However the winds have been strong, sometimes over 35 knots, and that makes it pretty miserable down at the docks. I have been earning grog money plowing drive ways. Michael, on the Island --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > Hello Brent and anyone else living on a boat on the BC coast. > I see that it is -19 this morning in Nanaimo. > This must be terrible for you. > I think that it will warm up for christmas. > > Take care Claude > | 19134|19134|2008-12-21 12:10:45|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Weather on the Coast|Cold as bloody charity.... though this morning it's a "balmy" -10C. -20C last monday, -22C yesterday morning, total well over 3' of snow up till last nite & have had to shovel the roof twice (in anticipation of the inevitable thaw) & it will be needed again today after the 10" dump last nite. So total is almost 4' thus far & counting. Gaining greater appreciation for the airtight stove! We are a bit up-island of Qualicum beach who got just nailed with snow. Worst in the province... apparantly, for a city anyway. Quite brilliantly Qualicum had a budget of zero dollars for snow removal, and this in a community that has the highest ratio of millionare's in the country! Go figure. We're at about 500' elevation so more snow & colder than QB. Nanaimo has 6", Vancouver & Pemberton, same. Port Albernie just 22km away over the mountians has none. Being a bit out of the way & stocked up on goodies & lots of wood it's no big deal. Quite comfey actually. Take care lads & Merry Christmas! Shane __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca| 19135|19134|2008-12-21 12:44:02|Ben Okopnik|Re: Weather on the Coast|On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 09:10:42AM -0800, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Cold as bloody charity.... though this morning it's a "balmy" -10C. > > -20C last monday, -22C yesterday morning, total well over 3' of snow > up till last nite & have had to shovel the roof twice (in anticipation > of the inevitable thaw) & it will be needed again today after the 10" > dump last nite. So total is almost 4' thus far & counting. Gaining > greater appreciation for the airtight stove! You folks should come down and build here in Florida. It's 80 degrees and sunny here today, and been pretty much like this for a week and more. (It would be great to have a bunch of origami people here, so I'm trying to make all you guys jealous. But the temps really have been like that. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19136|19134|2008-12-21 17:04:47|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Weather on the Coast|When I was about 16 I went skiing in Vermont. Some Canadians showed up looking for respite from the cold, they'd had -20C all week. The next morning at the ski slope it was -25 FAHRENHEIT at the bottom, and more like -50F at the top, PLUS a 25 mph wind! My buddy and I were the only ones to young to drink so we had the mountain to ourselves. Even the lift operators stayed in doors with the their finger on the E-stop! You can accomplish a lot when you are young and stupid. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" To: Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Weather on the Coast > Cold as bloody charity.... though this morning it's a "balmy" -10C. > > -20C last monday, -22C yesterday morning, total well over 3' of snow up > till last nite & have had to shovel the roof twice (in anticipation of the > inevitable thaw) & it will be needed again today after the 10" dump last > nite. So total is almost 4' thus far & counting. Gaining greater > appreciation for the airtight stove! > > We are a bit up-island of Qualicum beach who got just nailed with snow. > Worst in the province... apparantly, for a city anyway. Quite brilliantly > Qualicum had a budget of zero dollars for snow removal, and this in a > community that has the highest ratio of millionare's in the country! Go > figure. > > We're at about 500' elevation so more snow & colder than QB. > > Nanaimo has 6", Vancouver & Pemberton, same. Port Albernie just 22km away > over the mountians has none. Being a bit out of the way & stocked up on > goodies & lots of wood it's no big deal. Quite comfey actually. > > > > Take care lads & Merry Christmas! > Shane > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the > boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to > New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > | 19137|19134|2008-12-21 17:37:22|Robert T. Meade|Re: Weather on the Coast|I am down south of Ben a bit, in central Florida.? almost hot here today, 80deg F. cool enough in the mornings to work on the boat however, and i am mostly inside with the fans going, so is tolerable. i must admit i envy the Canadians in the summer though, when it is so hot and sticky humidity here. ? my regards to the group. ? Robert T. Meade Leesburg FL -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 5:04 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Weather on the Coast When I was about 16 I went skiing in Vermont. Some Canadians showed up looking for respite from the cold, they'd had -20C all week. The next morning at the ski slope it was -25 FAHRENHEIT at the bottom, and more like -50F at the top, PLUS a 25 mph wind! My buddy and I were the only ones to young to drink so we had the mountain to ourselves. Even the lift operators stayed in doors with the their finger on the E-stop! You can accomplish a lot when you are young and stupid. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" To: Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Weather on the Coast > Cold as bloody charity.... though this morning it's a "balmy" -10C. > > -20C last monday, -22C yesterday morning, total well over 3' of snow up > till last nite & have had to shovel the roof twice (in anticipation of the > inevitable thaw) & it will be needed again today after the 10" dump last > nite. So total is almost 4' thus far & counting. Gaining greater > appreciation for the airtight stove! > > We are a bit up-island of Qualicum beach who got just nailed with snow. > Worst in the province... apparantly, for a city anyway. Quite brilliantly > Qualicum had a budget of zero dollars for snow removal, and this in a > community that has the highest ratio of millionare's in the country! Go > figure. > > We're at about 500' elevation so more snow & colder than QB. > > Nanaimo has 6", Vancouver & Pemberton, same. Port Albernie just 22km away > over the mountians has none. Being a bit out of the way & stocked up on > goodies & lots of wood it's no big deal. Quite comfey actually. > > > > Take care lads & Merry Christmas! > Shane > > > __________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the > boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to > New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19138|19129|2008-12-21 17:56:13|first name last|Re: new books post at handbooks.blogspot.com|new books post at handbooks.blogspot.com thanks [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19139|19134|2008-12-22 08:26:28|TDPOPP@aol.com|Re: Weather on the Coast|>You folks should come down and build here in Florida. It's 80 degrees >and sunny here today, and been pretty much like this for a week and >more. >(It would be great to have a bunch of origami people here, so I'm trying >to make all you guys jealous. But the temps really have been like that. :) >-- >* Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * _http://LinuxGazettehttp_ (http://linuxgazette.net/) * Yes, it is nice there now Ben, but how do explain to the insurance company when the palmetto bugs pick up your boat hull and walk away with it? And having to remember to keep your dogs away from the lake as you don't want to feed the alligators? Teaching Basic Sailing at the Orlando NTC almost 30 years ago, I discovered that when you are in the water, Water Moccasins will swim to you! Always tradeoffs...... **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19140|19134|2008-12-22 08:43:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: Weather on the Coast|On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 08:27:59AM -0500, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > Yes, it is nice there now Ben, but how do explain to the insurance company > when the palmetto bugs pick up your boat hull and walk away with it? That's why you have to build your boat out of steel instead of wood or fiberglass. It also helps if you get the ballast in really quickly. > And having to remember to keep your dogs away from the lake as you don't > want to feed the alligators? You don't understand! I *don't* keep the dogs away from the lake; they're the *bait* (not real ones, of course - just decoys.) I like gator meat. > Teaching Basic Sailing at the Orlando NTC almost 30 years ago, I discovered > that when you are in the water, Water Moccasins will swim to you! Heh. True, they're very curious. And BIG. But that's down south; we don't have those here in the Matanzas river - they don't like the salt water. > Always tradeoffs...... For me, the big tradeoff is hurricanes. But, heck, by the time they come up here to North Florida, they're no worse than what the folks up Nanaimo way call a winter storm - and besides, it's *warm* when those things come. Wrestling with chafing gear on the anchor lines while it's blowing 60 is miserable enough as it is; doing it in the Canadian winter temps would be pure hell. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19141|19134|2008-12-22 12:05:13|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Weather on the Coast|Michael, you are lucky with the warming influence of the water mate! It's all the way up to -3C with drips off the roof this morning (glad I shoveled it for the 3rd time!). But about the real temperatures. there has been very little wind - under 5knotts here so it's not wind chill & my thermomiter is one of those lazer ones. very accurate. Hey! So its gonna thaw today, freeze tonight and snow tomorrow. The slush for Xmas. Yippee! Cheers & Best, Shane Posted by: "Michael Casling" kaipuke@... caslingm Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:46 am (PST) That must be the wind chill, or " feels Like " temperature that is being posted. Current Nanaimo is minus 2 according tp the web site. Night before was the coldest so far, minus four at my place, bottom of Gabriola, and about two degrees colder at the top end accross from Nanaimo. Folks around here have been saying it is minus a bunch while there is a puddle of liquid water nearby. However the winds have been strong, sometimes over 35 knots, and that makes it pretty miserable down at the docks. I have been earning grog money plowing drive ways. Michael, on the Island __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 19142|19134|2008-12-22 21:13:56|peter_d_wiley|Re: Weather on the Coast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 09:10:42AM -0800, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Cold as bloody charity.... though this morning it's a "balmy" -10C. > > > > -20C last monday, -22C yesterday morning, total well over 3' of snow > > up till last nite & have had to shovel the roof twice (in anticipation > > of the inevitable thaw) & it will be needed again today after the 10" > > dump last nite. So total is almost 4' thus far & counting. Gaining > > greater appreciation for the airtight stove! > > You folks should come down and build here in Florida. It's 80 degrees > and sunny here today, and been pretty much like this for a week and > more. > > (It would be great to have a bunch of origami people here, so I'm trying > to make all you guys jealous. But the temps really have been like that. :) Not that great. I've just got back to my place in Tasmania after working in Sydney since August. That got me out of here when it was cold and dark, into a sub-tropical winter climate. Now it's hitting 30+C in Sydney and the humidity is way up, I'm back on my place south of Hobart (43 S). Long sunny days, temps between 15C and 25C for the most part, cool nights and not many people. Brent is right, it's a right bitch doing outdoor work in heavy clothing in the heat. Fortunately I have a completely enclosed barn big enough to build anything up to 15m long and 4m beam. Semi-retirement is great, I get paid well when I want to work and I do what I want the rest of the time. I've even found a local place that'll blast and prime coat steel for me so as soon as I finish up some interstate work in January, I can start building a boat. Or just buy one if the market keeps getting worse. PDW| 19143|19143|2008-12-22 21:47:14|Gary Prebble|Blue Ringed Octopus|Just read an amazing article about this golf ball sized very fatal critter in Australian waters. Kills within 3 minutes of a "painless" bite. Victim looks dead due to near instant paralysis but 24hrs of assisted breathing and heart massage (as I read) can result in survival. Any Aussies on the site come across this little octopus phenom? I have never heard of it before until I read the article...fascinating but never want to meet one.| 19144|19143|2008-12-22 22:36:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: Blue Ringed Octopus|On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 02:47:12AM -0000, Gary Prebble wrote: > Just read an amazing article about this golf ball sized very fatal > critter in Australian waters. Kills within 3 minutes of a "painless" > bite. Victim looks dead due to near instant paralysis but 24hrs of > assisted breathing and heart massage (as I read) can result in > survival. Any Aussies on the site come across this little octopus > phenom? I have never heard of it before until I read the > article...fascinating but never want to meet one. Oh, he's one of the standard "deadly critters" that sailors should beware of. Off the top of my head: Sea wasp (a.k.a. Box Jellyfish) Blue-Ringed Octopus Conus Gloria Maris Sea snake ...and the most deadly creature of them all - The Drop Bear!!! :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_bear (Notice that most of these, including the Drop Bear, are in Australia or somewhere close by. Says something about the place, doesn't it? I still want to visit, though.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19145|19143|2008-12-22 23:56:11|Gary Prebble|Re: Blue Ringed Octopus|(Re Wikepedia)....I have heard that Aussies actually recommend and in fact use Crest tooth paste as the Drop Bear predation almost always results meeting the "Crest" of a person...therein also the inspiration for that brand... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 02:47:12AM -0000, Gary Prebble wrote: > > Just read an amazing article about this golf ball sized very fatal > > critter in Australian waters. Kills within 3 minutes of a "painless" > > bite. Victim looks dead due to near instant paralysis but 24hrs of > > assisted breathing and heart massage (as I read) can result in > > survival. Any Aussies on the site come across this little octopus > > phenom? I have never heard of it before until I read the > > article...fascinating but never want to meet one. > > Oh, he's one of the standard "deadly critters" that sailors should > beware of. Off the top of my head: > > Sea wasp (a.k.a. Box Jellyfish) > Blue-Ringed Octopus > Conus Gloria Maris > Sea snake > > ...and the most deadly creature of them all - The Drop Bear!!! :) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_bear > > (Notice that most of these, including the Drop Bear, are in Australia or > somewhere close by. Says something about the place, doesn't it? I still > want to visit, though.) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19146|19134|2008-12-23 12:19:35|mark hamill|Re: Weather on the Coast|Was out checking on the boat yesterday and I saw Brent rowing back to his boat through the ice. The aluminum hull of the dinghy was making a lot of noise. It was a beautiful clear day and the view was spectacular up towards the icefields with all the fresh snow. All the best, Mark| 19147|19134|2008-12-23 16:20:12|brentswain38|Re: Weather on the Coast|We'll trade you , half of our weather for half of yours. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 09:10:42AM -0800, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > Cold as bloody charity.... though this morning it's a "balmy" -10C. > > > > > > -20C last monday, -22C yesterday morning, total well over 3' of snow > > > up till last nite & have had to shovel the roof twice (in anticipation > > > of the inevitable thaw) & it will be needed again today after the 10" > > > dump last nite. So total is almost 4' thus far & counting. Gaining > > > greater appreciation for the airtight stove! > > > > You folks should come down and build here in Florida. It's 80 degrees > > and sunny here today, and been pretty much like this for a week and > > more. > > > > (It would be great to have a bunch of origami people here, so I'm trying > > to make all you guys jealous. But the temps really have been like > that. :) > > Not that great. I've just got back to my place in Tasmania after > working in Sydney since August. That got me out of here when it was > cold and dark, into a sub-tropical winter climate. Now it's hitting > 30+C in Sydney and the humidity is way up, I'm back on my place south > of Hobart (43 S). Long sunny days, temps between 15C and 25C for the > most part, cool nights and not many people. Brent is right, it's a > right bitch doing outdoor work in heavy clothing in the heat. > Fortunately I have a completely enclosed barn big enough to build > anything up to 15m long and 4m beam. Semi-retirement is great, I get > paid well when I want to work and I do what I want the rest of the time. > > I've even found a local place that'll blast and prime coat steel for > me so as soon as I finish up some interstate work in January, I can > start building a boat. Or just buy one if the market keeps getting worse. > > PDW > | 19148|19116|2008-12-23 16:21:23|brentswain38|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|I wouldn't want to risk setting fire to it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Would a hot wire cutter work on this stuff, in order to remove the high spots? > > --Doug J > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 4:20 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cleaning up after foaming > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanding is the only way to get it off bulkheads and wood surfaces if > > you haven't masked it first. I highly recommend masking before foaming. > > To slice the high spots off, I take a fish fillet knife, heat it red > > near the handle , then bend it to a 45 degree angle. This gives you a > > knife that lets you slice the high spots off, far easier to deal with > > than the dust from grinding it off( dust itchier than fibreglass, and > > you don't want to inhale it.) > > Painting it with cheap or free latex from the recycling centres > > drastically improves it's fire resistance. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Thompson" wrote: > > > > > > Can those of you that have had there boats spray foamed please tell me > > > what method and tools they used to clean up afterwards. I have just > > > had La Chica done and there is a fair amount of cleaning up to be done > > > now. Advice and input from those who have done it, would be most > > > welcome. > > > > > > For those interested, La Chica is not a BS design but a traditional > > > 32ft, heavy displacement double- ender. Displacement is about 18 000 > > > lbs , that would be similar to the BS36 and area to be covered with > > > foam should also be similar. It cost me NZ$ 1 200.00 as of yesterday. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19149|19116|2008-12-25 21:05:14|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|Comercaly made hot wire cutters work well but you need a resperator and air flow to protect from the little bit os smoke they give off. It will kill you inside a boat. 7" side head grinder with a sanding disk and proper safty gear wound be the easyest and safest. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I wouldn't want to risk setting fire to it. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > Would a hot wire cutter work on this stuff, in order to remove the > high spots? > > > > --Doug J | 19150|19116|2008-12-26 09:21:44|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|I would think a good sharp serrated knife with a bend near the handle would do a really good job of trimming the high spots. The advantage would be that it wouldn't produce a ton of small particles that stick to everything and are very hard to remove. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" To: Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2008 9:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cleaning up after foaming Comercaly made hot wire cutters work well but you need a resperator and air flow to protect from the little bit os smoke they give off. It will kill you inside a boat. 7" side head grinder with a sanding disk and proper safty gear wound be the easyest and safest. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I wouldn't want to risk setting fire to it. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > Would a hot wire cutter work on this stuff, in order to remove the > high spots? > > > > --Doug J | 19151|19116|2008-12-26 11:22:02|Carl Anderson|Cleaning up after foaming|I went to the thrift store & bought an array of knives as per Evan's direction. The best one was a SMALL serrated steak knife. I also had a big long hand saw for the walls [big space to saw]. Carl liked the long serrated carving knife w/ a flexible blade. Cutting w/ a knife took off large chunks that were easy to handle making less mess. I heard the "disk" idea was a crazy mess... but fast. We heard that it took days to clean up the mess w/ the disk idea. The static electricity in the stuff is bad...it clings to everything! Not as bad as Brent's' term, "shit to a blanket" but just about... WEAR your mask!!! It took me about 10 days & we did not have that much foam. Another few days to paint. GET YOUR latex paint from the dump OR at the recycle center. I got all of it from the Nanaimo recycle center for FREE. It took between 15 - 20 gallons. Don't worry about the color. Our color was purple, & different shades of purple. PURPLE HAZE.... Fill in those spaces w/ "Great Stuff". I'm still STILL finding foam bits as I clean those out of the way places... When painting the black tar [coat after coat] to prepare the inside for foaming, I whimpered... When I had to put fiber gum on the wee bits of wood to attach on the 500 or so tabs so we'd have a place to attach wood siding later on, my chin got more whimpery & one tear fell down my face. When I had to trim foam I all out bawled. Carl told me to go into the trailer & call my mom. That was definitely the nastiest part of the building process. But the foamer - Roy at Independent Shipwrights in Coombs, was awesome & had some great dirty jokes. Otherwise I don't know if I'd had made it... One more thing... We heard of someone who could not find a professional to foam. They found him dead in the bottom of his boat. We almost did it ourselves & the guy selling me the insulation said "Don't!" after I told him it was a boat. It is difficult to walk around inside a boat. Also, Roy had the whole air intact suit - the right tools, etc etc. & He is EXPERIENCED in foaming boats!!!!!!!!! We've up-dated our website. Tell us what you think! Love to all, & Merry Christmas! Kate [n' carl] moonflowerofmoab.com Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > I would think a good sharp serrated knife with a bend near the handle would > do a really good job of trimming the high spots. The advantage would be > that it wouldn't produce a ton of small particles that stick to everything > and are very hard to remove. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- | 19152|19116|2008-12-27 08:18:46|Wally Paine|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|The following is armchair stuff. i.e. I've not tried it or done any foaming at all. Would it be possible to install most of the interior wood work before foaming, leaving suitable gaps, and then foam between the wood work and the steel hull. If so, the wooden interior should contain the foam and minimise the cleaning up process. Comments please. Wally Paine --- On Fri, 26/12/08, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: [origamiboats] Cleaning up after foaming To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 26 December, 2008, 4:21 PM I went to the thrift store & bought an array of knives as per Evan's direction. The best one was a SMALL serrated steak knife. I also had a big long hand saw for the walls [big space to saw]. Carl liked the long serrated carving knife w/ a flexible blade. Cutting w/ a knife took off large chunks that were easy to handle making less mess. I heard the "disk" idea was a crazy mess... but fast. We heard that it took days to clean up the mess w/ the disk idea. The static electricity in the stuff is bad...it clings to everything! Not as bad as Brent's' term, "shit to a blanket" but just about... WEAR your mask!!! It took me about 10 days & we did not have that much foam. Another few days to paint. GET YOUR latex paint from the dump OR at the recycle center. I got all of it from the Nanaimo recycle center for FREE. It took between 15 - 20 gallons. Don't worry about the color. Our color was purple, & different shades of purple. PURPLE HAZE.... Fill in those spaces w/ "Great Stuff". I'm still STILL finding foam bits as I clean those out of the way places... When painting the black tar [coat after coat] to prepare the inside for foaming, I whimpered... When I had to put fiber gum on the wee bits of wood to attach on the 500 or so tabs so we'd have a place to attach wood siding later on, my chin got more whimpery & one tear fell down my face. When I had to trim foam I all out bawled. Carl told me to go into the trailer & call my mom. That was definitely the nastiest part of the building process. But the foamer - Roy at Independent Shipwrights in Coombs, was awesome & had some great dirty jokes. Otherwise I don't know if I'd had made it... One more thing... We heard of someone who could not find a professional to foam. They found him dead in the bottom of his boat. We almost did it ourselves & the guy selling me the insulation said "Don't!" after I told him it was a boat. It is difficult to walk around inside a boat. Also, Roy had the whole air intact suit - the right tools, etc etc. & He is EXPERIENCED in foaming boats!!!!!!! !! We've up-dated our website. Tell us what you think! Love to all, & Merry Christmas! Kate [n' carl] moonflowerofmoab. com Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > I would think a good sharp serrated knife with a bend near the handle would > do a really good job of trimming the high spots. The advantage would be > that it wouldn't produce a ton of small particles that stick to everything > and are very hard to remove. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19153|19153|2008-12-27 09:38:17|prairiemaidca|Foam and Clean Up|Hi All: With Prairie Maid we were very lucky that we found a pro installer who had some smaller gear for working in tight spaces. All the others we talked to did buidings etc. with nozzels that put out foam like a fire hose. He could get the foam very nicely behind the mounting strips and into the tight spots. He also was extreamly good at not ending up with large amounts of excess all over. I purcharsed a serrated flexible bread knife and did the trimming with it. Given the surface area of a 36 it still takes a lot of work but from what I've heard we had very little trimming to do compared to most. Even with just the knife the static cling is very annoying. I personally would not put anything in the boat that you would not want that foam to stick on. It also might break something if it expands in behind it, not unlike water freezing in a closed in space. Martin..| 19154|19116|2008-12-27 10:10:38|Carl Anderson|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|Wally, In my understanding with Brent, you must foam every metal surface inside the boat [after the coats of primer/ tar, etc...] I'm told a steel boat rusts from the inside. Everywhere you have bare steel inside will form condensation - very bad... & as Prairemaid said, the foam does expand. k M.O.M. Wally Paine wrote: > > > The following is armchair stuff. i.e. I've not tried it or done any > foaming at all. > > Would it be possible to install most of the interior wood work before > foaming, leaving suitable gaps, and then foam between the wood work and > the steel hull. If so, the wooden interior should contain the foam and > minimise the cleaning up process. Comments please. > > Wally Paine > > | 19155|19116|2008-12-27 12:51:00|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|Wally, Have you ever tried filling gaps with Great Stuff foam in a can? The tough part is estimating how big the cavity is, and how much you have filled it, without actually being able to see it! So you either leave voids from underfilling, or the foam comes out of every opening all over the place. A pro foaming an open surface can judge how much he is applying. He may put down say a 1/2" layer, knowing that it will expand to 2" before it cures. The other issue is that your boat should be built to be able to be taken apart, to reach rusting, bang out a dent, change something that didn't work as well as you hoped, etc. Boats with dead spaces you can never reach are bad news, whether they are steel, aluminum, or fiberglass. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wally Paine" To: Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Cleaning up after foaming The following is armchair stuff. i.e. I've not tried it or done any foaming at all. Would it be possible to install most of the interior wood work before foaming, leaving suitable gaps, and then foam between the wood work and the steel hull. If so, the wooden interior should contain the foam and minimise the cleaning up process. Comments please. Wally Paine --- On Fri, 26/12/08, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: [origamiboats] Cleaning up after foaming To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 26 December, 2008, 4:21 PM I went to the thrift store & bought an array of knives as per Evan's direction. The best one was a SMALL serrated steak knife. I also had a big long hand saw for the walls [big space to saw]. Carl liked the long serrated carving knife w/ a flexible blade. Cutting w/ a knife took off large chunks that were easy to handle making less mess. I heard the "disk" idea was a crazy mess... but fast. We heard that it took days to clean up the mess w/ the disk idea. The static electricity in the stuff is bad...it clings to everything! Not as bad as Brent's' term, "shit to a blanket" but just about... WEAR your mask!!! It took me about 10 days & we did not have that much foam. Another few days to paint. GET YOUR latex paint from the dump OR at the recycle center. I got all of it from the Nanaimo recycle center for FREE. It took between 15 - 20 gallons. Don't worry about the color. Our color was purple, & different shades of purple. PURPLE HAZE.... Fill in those spaces w/ "Great Stuff". I'm still STILL finding foam bits as I clean those out of the way places... When painting the black tar [coat after coat] to prepare the inside for foaming, I whimpered... When I had to put fiber gum on the wee bits of wood to attach on the 500 or so tabs so we'd have a place to attach wood siding later on, my chin got more whimpery & one tear fell down my face. When I had to trim foam I all out bawled. Carl told me to go into the trailer & call my mom. That was definitely the nastiest part of the building process. But the foamer - Roy at Independent Shipwrights in Coombs, was awesome & had some great dirty jokes. Otherwise I don't know if I'd had made it... One more thing... We heard of someone who could not find a professional to foam. They found him dead in the bottom of his boat. We almost did it ourselves & the guy selling me the insulation said "Don't!" after I told him it was a boat. It is difficult to walk around inside a boat. Also, Roy had the whole air intact suit - the right tools, etc etc. & He is EXPERIENCED in foaming boats!!!!!!! !! We've up-dated our website. Tell us what you think! Love to all, & Merry Christmas! Kate [n' carl] moonflowerofmoab. com Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > I would think a good sharp serrated knife with a bend near the handle > would > do a really good job of trimming the high spots. The advantage would be > that it wouldn't produce a ton of small particles that stick to everything > and are very hard to remove. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19156|19156|2008-12-27 12:56:06|silascrosby|Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical). I have thought of : 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the threads. 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint surface. 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, but OK if I have halyard backups. 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, if the most labour-intensive. Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is my biggest problem, life is alright. Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC| 19157|19156|2008-12-27 13:24:08|David Frantz|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Sandblasting? I'm not sure if the turn buckles will be inplace when you go to clean them but it might help either way. That is a suggestion but realize that the hardware is 15 years old. Some of the heavily stressed gear could be fatiqued. Taking this into account new turn buckles might not seem that expensive. Also; I'm not sure if I read you rich bit I'd be very careful about cutting any wire undertension. Look for someone locally with the experience & tools. Now thinking about this if you want to relieve some of that tension and decide that new turn buckles are in order why not soak the turn buckles with penetrating oil and and slowly loosen the tension buy running the threads back and forth. Sure you might have put some effort into it but it should be safer than trying to cut the wire. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Dec 27, 2008, at 12:56 PM, silascrosby wrote: > Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. > A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and > painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and > impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I > am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another > offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed > ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the > staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. > The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical). > I have thought of : > > 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. > > 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the > threads. > 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in > this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray > bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint > surface. > > 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be > under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, > but OK if I have halyard backups. > > 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. > > 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. > > 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and > sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, > if the most labour-intensive. > > Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is > my biggest problem, life is alright. > > Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. > > > cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 19158|19158|2008-12-27 13:54:11|prairiemaidca|Paint Remover|Hi Steve: I have a couple of things left over from when Prairie Maid was painted. One product is xylene, and the other is a dupont product called nason 441-21 med. reducer. It contains butyl acetate and acetone and some others. I've found that there isn't much that can't be softened with one of these two. They are both very nasty chemicals and should be treated with care. If possible you may be able to obtain a small sample from a body shop and very carefully apply it to the threads usint a Q tip or corner of a cloth and let it work. Then pick away enough to allow you to release some tension on the rig. As with any of these products you will want to make sure that none of it comes in contact with a surface that you are fond of. You or the Boat! Just one thought I had for your problem. Martin..| 19159|19156|2008-12-27 14:56:50|silascrosby|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|David,I plan to replace the turnbuckles with new ones.The turnbuckles will,of necessity, be in place as I need to clean the threads to remove them. Penetrating oil and working back and forth will be worth a try. Thanks for the advice about cutting under tension, I won't try that. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Sandblasting? > > I'm not sure if the turn buckles will be inplace when you go to clean > them but it might help either way. > > That is a suggestion but realize that the hardware is 15 years old. > Some of the heavily stressed gear could be fatiqued. Taking this into > account new turn buckles might not seem that expensive. > > Also; I'm not sure if I read you rich bit I'd be very careful about > cutting any wire undertension. Look for someone locally with the > experience & tools. > > Now thinking about this if you want to relieve some of that tension > and decide that new turn buckles are in order why not soak the turn > buckles with penetrating oil and and slowly loosen the tension buy > running the threads back and forth. Sure you might have put some > effort into it but it should be safer than trying to cut the wire. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Dec 27, 2008, at 12:56 PM, silascrosby wrote: > > > Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. > > A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and > > painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and > > impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I > > am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another > > offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed > > ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the > > staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. > > The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical). > > I have thought of : > > > > 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. > > > > 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the > > threads. > > 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in > > this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray > > bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint > > surface. > > > > 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be > > under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, > > but OK if I have halyard backups. > > > > 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. > > > > 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. > > > > 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and > > sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, > > if the most labour-intensive. > > > > Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is > > my biggest problem, life is alright. > > > > Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. > > > > > > cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 19160|19158|2008-12-27 15:00:32|silascrosby|Re: Paint Remover|Martin, thanks. In other words a stronger paint remover than my off-the-shelf attempt. OK, if I do that I will drape the work area as if it were in an operating room, including mask,scrubs, gloves, and eye protection. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi Steve: I have a couple of things left over from when Prairie Maid > was painted. One product is xylene, and the other is a dupont product > called nason 441-21 med. reducer. It contains butyl acetate and acetone > and some others. I've found that there isn't much that can't be > softened with one of these two. They are both very nasty chemicals and > should be treated with care. If possible you may be able to obtain a > small sample from a body shop and very carefully apply it to the > threads usint a Q tip or corner of a cloth and let it work. Then pick > away enough to allow you to release some tension on the rig. As with > any of these products you will want to make sure that none of it comes > in contact with a surface that you are fond of. You or the Boat! Just > one thought I had for your problem. Martin.. > | 19161|19156|2008-12-27 15:02:44|silascrosby|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Yes, maybe a little 'pencil-blaster' . Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Sandblasting? > > I'm not sure if the turn buckles will be inplace when you go to clean > them but it might help either way. > > That is a suggestion but realize that the hardware is 15 years old. > Some of the heavily stressed gear could be fatiqued. Taking this into > account new turn buckles might not seem that expensive. > > Also; I'm not sure if I read you rich bit I'd be very careful about > cutting any wire undertension. Look for someone locally with the > experience & tools. > > Now thinking about this if you want to relieve some of that tension > and decide that new turn buckles are in order why not soak the turn > buckles with penetrating oil and and slowly loosen the tension buy > running the threads back and forth. Sure you might have put some > effort into it but it should be safer than trying to cut the wire. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Dec 27, 2008, at 12:56 PM, silascrosby wrote: > > > Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. > > A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and > > painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and > > impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I > > am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another > > offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed > > ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the > > staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. > > The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical). > > I have thought of : > > > > 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. > > > > 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the > > threads. > > 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in > > this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray > > bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint > > surface. > > > > 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be > > under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, > > but OK if I have halyard backups. > > > > 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. > > > > 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. > > > > 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and > > sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, > > if the most labour-intensive. > > > > Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is > > my biggest problem, life is alright. > > > > Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. > > > > > > cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 19162|19156|2008-12-27 15:41:16|mark hamill|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Has anybody mentioned a torch or heat gun to burn or soften the paint followed by oil or WD40?| 19163|19156|2008-12-27 17:05:57|silascrosby|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Excellent suggestion. A small butane torch may be the solution.Particularly since I am not worried about damaging the turnbuckle. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Has anybody mentioned a torch or heat gun to burn or soften the paint > followed by oil or WD40? > | 19164|19156|2008-12-27 17:18:20|Wesley Cox|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|How about a hand held grinder with wire wheel? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19165|19134|2008-12-27 17:27:24|brentswain38|Re: Weather on the Coast|We have litteraly thousands of hurricane holes, so bullet proof , they rarely get enough wind to blow out a candle , even in hurricane force winds outside. The holding ground is as good as it gets.When I ride out a storm in one I think how wondeful they would be in the tropics, then I think "If they were in the tropics they would be so crammed with coral, you couldn't row a dinghy thru them.. Any place that isn't super deep is crammed with coral in the South Pacific. There is good holding in anchorages on high islands where there is river runoff, but in the atols there is only coral sand , as light as popcorn and as useful for holding in, with smooth slabs of coral a couple of inches under them. Jim, who has a 36 in Houston Texas, said he won't make it up here this year, as Hurricane Ike wiped him out. His boat is OK as he had moved it to a marina with floats. The one he left , which had solid docks,impaled all the boats there on the ends of the pilings. His pickup, RV and generator was under six feet of water and when he found the apartment he was staying in, there was nothing left but the concret slab,and all he found of his possesions was a bedspring in one corner and a fork in the other. That was about 50 miles inland. That kind of stuff just doesn't happen here. After seing what people have to do to deal with the weather in "Paradise" it seems so much easier to simply throw another log on the fire.Tropics is great for the nothern winter, but I wouldnt want to be there in the hurricane season. The ducks have it figured out , south for the winter and north for the summer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 08:27:59AM -0500, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > > > Yes, it is nice there now Ben, but how do explain to the insurance company > > when the palmetto bugs pick up your boat hull and walk away with it? > > That's why you have to build your boat out of steel instead of wood or > fiberglass. It also helps if you get the ballast in really quickly. > > > And having to remember to keep your dogs away from the lake as you don't > > want to feed the alligators? > > You don't understand! I *don't* keep the dogs away from the lake; > they're the *bait* (not real ones, of course - just decoys.) I like > gator meat. > > > Teaching Basic Sailing at the Orlando NTC almost 30 years ago, I discovered > > that when you are in the water, Water Moccasins will swim to you! > > Heh. True, they're very curious. And BIG. But that's down south; we > don't have those here in the Matanzas river - they don't like the salt > water. > > > Always tradeoffs...... > > For me, the big tradeoff is hurricanes. But, heck, by the time they come > up here to North Florida, they're no worse than what the folks up > Nanaimo way call a winter storm - and besides, it's *warm* when those > things come. Wrestling with chafing gear on the anchor lines while it's > blowing 60 is miserable enough as it is; doing it in the Canadian winter > temps would be pure hell. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19166|19156|2008-12-27 17:29:20|brentswain38|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|If you warm it till it softens with a standard propane torch, then a hand wire brush( tory toothbrush) gets the paint off very easily. It doesn't take much warming. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > How about a hand held grinder with wire wheel? > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19167|19116|2008-12-27 17:34:51|jimbaltaxe|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|Hi Gary &al Along the lines of the bent and serrated edge knife, I've come across a small device with a spring steel loop on a handle with one edge serrated and lightly sharpened which should be very suitable. The only surprise is that I found it in a pet shop! It is intended for grooming long haired dogs, specifically to cut out matted hair or undercoat to minimize shedding. A quick touch with a grindwheel would produce a sharp edge. Alternatively, why not simply try a hacksaw with the blade in sideways? I am assuming that you are mainly concerned with trimming convex faces. Enjoy Jim Baltaxe They said get a life. I looked on TradeMe but they didn't have any. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I would think a good sharp serrated knife with a bend near the handle would > do a really good job of trimming the high spots. The advantage would be > that it wouldn't produce a ton of small particles that stick to everything > and are very hard to remove. > > Gary H. Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19168|19116|2008-12-27 17:35:32|brentswain38|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|Get a lot of epoxy tar on the steel before foaming . Don't let the foamer leave, before doing several checks for voids and missed spots. Get a lot of cheap latex paint on the foam ,after trimming,for drastically improved fire resistance. It also seals in any remaining foam dust. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Wally, > Have you ever tried filling gaps with Great Stuff foam in a can? The tough > part is estimating how big the cavity is, and how much you have filled it, > without actually being able to see it! So you either leave voids from > underfilling, or the foam comes out of every opening all over the place. A > pro foaming an open surface can judge how much he is applying. He may put > down say a 1/2" layer, knowing that it will expand to 2" before it cures. > > The other issue is that your boat should be built to be able to be taken > apart, to reach rusting, bang out a dent, change something that didn't work > as well as you hoped, etc. Boats with dead spaces you can never reach are > bad news, whether they are steel, aluminum, or fiberglass. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wally Paine" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:18 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Cleaning up after foaming > > > The following is armchair stuff. i.e. I've not tried it or done any foaming > at all. > > Would it be possible to install most of the interior wood work before > foaming, leaving suitable gaps, and then foam between the wood work and the > steel hull. If so, the wooden interior should contain the foam and minimise > the cleaning up process. Comments please. > > Wally Paine > > --- On Fri, 26/12/08, Carl Anderson wrote: > From: Carl Anderson > Subject: [origamiboats] Cleaning up after foaming > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, 26 December, 2008, 4:21 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > I went to the thrift store & bought an array of knives as per > Evan's > > direction. The best one was a SMALL serrated steak knife. I also had a > > big long hand saw for the walls [big space to saw]. Carl liked the long > > serrated carving knife w/ a flexible blade. Cutting w/ a knife took off > > large chunks that were easy to handle making less mess. > > > > I heard the "disk" idea was a crazy mess... but fast. We heard that it > > took days to clean up the mess w/ the disk idea. The static electricity > > in the stuff is bad...it clings to everything! Not as bad as Brent's' > > term, "shit to a blanket" but just about... WEAR your mask!!! > > > > It took me about 10 days & we did not have that much foam. > > Another few days to paint. GET YOUR latex paint from the dump OR at the > > recycle center. I got all of it from the Nanaimo recycle center for > > FREE. It took between 15 - 20 gallons. Don't worry about the color. > > Our color was purple, & different shades of purple. PURPLE HAZE.... > > > > Fill in those spaces w/ "Great Stuff". > > > > I'm still STILL finding foam bits as I clean those out of the way > > places... When painting the black tar [coat after coat] to prepare the > > inside for foaming, I whimpered... When I had to put fiber gum on the > > wee bits of wood to attach on the 500 or so tabs so we'd have a place to > > attach wood siding later on, my chin got more whimpery & one tear fell > > down my face. When I had to trim foam I all out bawled. Carl told me > > to go into the trailer & call my mom. That was definitely the nastiest > > part of the building process. But the foamer - Roy at Independent > > Shipwrights in Coombs, was awesome & had some great dirty jokes. > > Otherwise I don't know if I'd had made it... > > > > One more thing... We heard of someone who could not find a professional > > to foam. They found him dead in the bottom of his boat. We almost did > > it ourselves & the guy selling me the insulation said "Don't!" after I > > told him it was a boat. It is difficult to walk around inside a boat. > > Also, Roy had the whole air intact suit - the right tools, etc etc. & > > He is EXPERIENCED in foaming boats!!!!!!! !! > > > > We've up-dated our website. Tell us what you think! > > > > Love to all, > > & Merry Christmas! > > > > Kate [n' carl] > > moonflowerofmoab. com > > > > Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > > > > > > > I would think a good sharp serrated knife with a bend near the handle > > would > > > do a really good job of trimming the high spots. The advantage would be > > > that it wouldn't produce a ton of small particles that stick to everything > > > and are very hard to remove. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19169|19156|2008-12-27 17:41:34|brentswain38|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Don't forget to put lots of paint on the new ones. Galv constanly erodes if it is not painted. Washing galv with vinegar gives the new paint a good bite on galv. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > How about a hand held grinder with wire wheel? > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19170|19156|2008-12-27 18:46:56|silascrosby|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Brent, I'm not sure that I will paint the new ones. If I do it will just be the bodies of the turnbuckles and not the threads.Probably just lanolin or some other gumpucky on the threads, but not paint. Even though I haven't adjusted the rig in years I should be able to. The paint on the threads prevents adjustment. Steve ps thanks to all for the rapid response to my 'painted thread' question. Where else could that happen? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Don't forget to put lots of paint on the new ones. Galv constanly > erodes if it is not painted. Washing galv with vinegar gives the new > paint a good bite on galv. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > How about a hand held grinder with wire wheel? > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: > 12/26/2008 1:01 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19171|19156|2008-12-27 19:20:56|mark hamill|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|" ps thanks to all for the rapid response to my 'painted thread' question. Where else could that happen?" Try "Paint in Turnbuckle Threads.com" ;)| 19172|19172|2008-12-27 19:44:22|prairiemaidca|Paint and the Rig|Hi Brent: I know you prefer the non stainless route for rigging and I have a question regarding the baby stay or intermediate stay between the main forstay and the mast. Would it be okay to use stainless wire for that? My concern is the wearing off of any protective coating by a hanked on sail in that position. Your thoughts greatly appreciated. Martin )Prairie Maid) P.S. any contact with Ken Smith??| 19173|19172|2008-12-27 19:47:41|brentswain38|Re: Paint and the Rig|Yes , you'd be better off with 1x19 ss for that stay, if you are using hanks on it. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi Brent: I know you prefer the non stainless route for rigging and I > have a question regarding the baby stay or intermediate stay between > the main forstay and the mast. Would it be okay to use stainless wire > for that? My concern is the wearing off of any protective coating by a > hanked on sail in that position. Your thoughts greatly appreciated. > Martin )Prairie Maid) P.S. any contact with Ken Smith?? > | 19174|19156|2008-12-27 19:52:56|brentswain38|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|With 5/16th galv wire , the only adjusting you'll have to do is in the first few months. Then paint will be OK. After you find how well a bit of heat and wire brush works, you'll have less apprehension about using paint. Goop works if you wrap them and paint over the wraping, but you still have to wire them. I didn't at first on my last boat and one undid itself in a gale and threw the body of the turnbuckle overboard. With new ones you can sometimes tug on a stay and watch it undo itself. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Brent, I'm not sure that I will paint the new ones. If I do it will > just be the bodies of the turnbuckles and not the threads.Probably > just lanolin or some other gumpucky on the threads, but not paint. > Even though I haven't adjusted the rig in years I should be able to. > The paint on the threads prevents adjustment. > > Steve > > ps thanks to all for the rapid response to my 'painted thread' > question. Where else could that happen? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Don't forget to put lots of paint on the new ones. Galv constanly > > erodes if it is not painted. Washing galv with vinegar gives the new > > paint a good bite on galv. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > > > How about a hand held grinder with wire wheel? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: > > 12/26/2008 1:01 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 19175|19175|2008-12-28 06:45:24|first name last|Re: new book title|http://handbooks.blogspot.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19176|19116|2008-12-29 02:27:38|Knut F Garshol|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|Wally, in principle it is possible to do as you suggest and it is probably possible to develop a decent way of proceeding with success, but the probability that you get it right the first time around is slim. The problems are: * the 2-component PU that you pump in behind the wooden interior will expand and turn into foam and depending on how much flow resistance that is created during foaming, it will produce a variable foam factor (and porosity) and a variable pressure against your lining. The maximum pressure is huge (around 30 bar or over 400 psi). You would have to secure the lining against moving, even iff you foam only small areas at a time, thus keeping the pressure low. * difficulty in estimating the volume to be filled per section, to define the volume of product to inject. Difficulty in defining sections and selecting the right sequence of foaming * the lining would have to be about �watertight� to avoid expanding foam from coming out in odd places (requiring cleaning up) * hard to ensure complete filling everywhere, even after careful selection of sections and sequences * you would need drainage holes in enclosed sections to let out air and avoid too much pressure build-up. Difficult to estimate necessary number, size and location of pressure relief holes. Holes would need to be patched afterwards I know this technique could be used, like when they foam up a glass fiber reinforced surfing board shell with PU-foam, but for a one-time builder it is not recommendable. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wally Paine Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:19 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Cleaning up after foaming The following is armchair stuff. i.e. I've not tried it or done any foaming at all. Would it be possible to install most of the interior wood work before foaming, leaving suitable gaps, and then foam between the wood work and the steel hull. If so, the wooden interior should contain the foam and minimise the cleaning up process. Comments please. Wally Paine --- On Fri, 26/12/08, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: [origamiboats] Cleaning up after foaming To: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com Date: Friday, 26 December, 2008, 4:21 PM I went to the thrift store & bought an array of knives as per Evan's direction. The best one was a SMALL serrated steak knife. I also had a big long hand saw for the walls [big space to saw]. Carl liked the long serrated carving knife w/ a flexible blade. Cutting w/ a knife took off large chunks that were easy to handle making less mess. I heard the "disk" idea was a crazy mess... but fast. We heard that it took days to clean up the mess w/ the disk idea. The static electricity in the stuff is bad...it clings to everything! Not as bad as Brent's' term, "shit to a blanket" but just about... WEAR your mask!!! It took me about 10 days & we did not have that much foam. Another few days to paint. GET YOUR latex paint from the dump OR at the recycle center. I got all of it from the Nanaimo recycle center for FREE. It took between 15 - 20 gallons. Don't worry about the color. Our color was purple, & different shades of purple. PURPLE HAZE.... Fill in those spaces w/ "Great Stuff". I'm still STILL finding foam bits as I clean those out of the way places... When painting the black tar [coat after coat] to prepare the inside for foaming, I whimpered... When I had to put fiber gum on the wee bits of wood to attach on the 500 or so tabs so we'd have a place to attach wood siding later on, my chin got more whimpery & one tear fell down my face. When I had to trim foam I all out bawled. Carl told me to go into the trailer & call my mom. That was definitely the nastiest part of the building process. But the foamer - Roy at Independent Shipwrights in Coombs, was awesome & had some great dirty jokes. Otherwise I don't know if I'd had made it... One more thing... We heard of someone who could not find a professional to foam. They found him dead in the bottom of his boat. We almost did it ourselves & the guy selling me the insulation said "Don't!" after I told him it was a boat. It is difficult to walk around inside a boat. Also, Roy had the whole air intact suit - the right tools, etc etc. & He is EXPERIENCED in foaming boats!!!!!!! !! We've up-dated our website. Tell us what you think! Love to all, & Merry Christmas! Kate [n' carl] moonflowerofmoab. com Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > I would think a good sharp serrated knife with a bend near the handle would > do a really good job of trimming the high spots. The advantage would be > that it wouldn't produce a ton of small particles that stick to everything > and are very hard to remove. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19177|19085|2008-12-29 02:27:38|Paul Wilson|Re: Rode|Reposting since it didn’t seem to get through….. Brent, I am not sure if I am following you correctly, but I think wire on top of rope on the drum would just cut down into the rope since it is so soft and allow the cable to bury itself. The pull is so great the hardwood gets crushed and compressed a bit. I keep my extra anchor rope on hose reels so I can quickly add on some if needed. Further info……When I broke my ¼ inch cable, I was using a snubber although it was probably on the short side since I was in shallow water. The snubber never broke so maybe it slipped??? I remember having a hard time getting a rolling hitch to grip on greased ¼ inch cable sometimes. Using a Prusik knot on the 3/8 cable has never slipped, however. Your idea of using shorter lengths of wire and eyes would have been better with the ¼ inch cable. I had only about 30 seconds warning when the cable suddenly snagged and then snapped. Conditions were extreme and when the cable snagged, the boat pitched so hard it threw books out of a shelf. Not a fun day, but it could have been worse since I was onboard and had another anchor ready. The only thing I can think of was that the thimble and nicro-press were held at right angles to the pull of the cable when it got caught in the coral. I suspect it then sheared the cable. I recovered the gear later and it snapped right where the cable entered the nicro-press. Everthing was relatively new with little corrosion and properly crimped. Following my experience, I don’t really trust the smaller cable and crimps …..at least for a 36 footer. So how long does your SS cable last in the water? Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rode I fill mine up with rope. More usefull. A length of floating poly on the end will keep it afloat if you are caught on a lee shore and have to leave your ground tackle behind for a day or two. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I was a little skeptical about the wood as well but it lasted about 10 years before needing replacing. I used a hardwood and I think the grease kept it from rotting. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 2:39 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rode > > > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 07:17:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > > Yup, the only practical way to stow cable is on a spool. Using 3/8 > > inch cable is overkill but I chose it because it was available at the > > time, easy to splice, and I like the extra weight. I built up the > > center axle on the drum with some bits of wood to about 4 or 5 inch > > diameter so that the cable isn’t kinked too tightly around the drum. > > With smaller cable it wasn’t a problem but I was concerned about > > wrapping larger cable around too tight of a diameter. > > Thanks, Paul; that all makes sense. I'd be a bit suspicious of wood on > the axle - I still remember seeing the aluminum hub of a fishing reel > that had collapsed after the fishing line was wound onto it under too > much tension - but I'm planning on building a spool like that on Ulysses > sometime in the next few years (frankly, when my current chain shows > signs of wearing out!), and I'm doing a bit of mental info-hoarding > before I do. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19178|19085|2008-12-29 02:27:38|Paul Wilson|Re: Rode|The eyes are a good idea. I have been using a rolling hitch (Prusik hitch) with a loop of line to a nylon snubber which grips the larger cable good if you do enough wraps. It would sometimes slip on ¼ inch cable but has never slipped on 3/8 cable. I used to always buoy my cable around coral until a guy hit the cable with his outboard. He was pretty upset but didnÂ’t have a good answer for me when I asked him why he was passing so close and so fast in an anchorage. I donÂ’t know why the local boats always use boats like pylons in a race course. I donÂ’t buoy the cable now unless absolutely needed. Brent, how long does the stainless cable last in the salt water? I have only been getting about 2- 3 years with galv cable in the tropics despite trying to keep it greased up. Are you using nicro-press fittings? When I broke my ¼ inch cable, it was right at a nicro-press where it got kinked in the coral. I now use a soft splice on the cable. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:53 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rode When I go south of Baja I use 7X19 stainless wire rope with an eye every 50 feet. I put out enough for adequate scope, then loop a piece of poly rope thru the nearest eye for shock absorber. Some people use foats to keept he nylon off the bottom and to act as shock absorbers. Bob Griffiths on Ahwanee swore by floating poly rope, but that was before outboards becasme so common. I've used floats to kept the rode off the coral and to act as shock absorbers. Take enough poly for shorelines . The rich , who can afford nylon, are on the lookout for bleach bottles to keep their rodes from sinking and cutting on the cora, while the proletariat usually have enough poly for the job. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Carl Anderson wrote: > > Gary, > > Are you planning on a pacific cruise? > We are in the process of redoing our anchoring system after much research. > We now have a 20Kg bruce "knock-off" with 50' of 3/8" chain (both > stainless) and 275' of 5/8" nylon 3 strand. > All of that is for sale now. > We are getting a 20Kg Manson Supreme with 100' of 5/16" G43 chain (both > galvanized) and using the same nylon 3 strand. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > I was reading this post on crusiers forum > > http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f23/s-pacific-anchorage-depths-and- > > > > chain-length-21876.html > > > > Just wondering for the south seas what some of our "bin there" folk > > used. > > > > Thanks > > Gary > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19179|19156|2008-12-29 02:27:38|Paul Wilson|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|I have had luck soaking frozen metal parts in vinegar. It slowly works its way on any rust and may take a day or two but it works. I have heard Coke works as well. I am not sure how you would get it to stay on a vertical surface and if it's paint holding it frozen probably won't help. If you aren't interested in saving the turnbuckles, you could lash the eye down so it doesn't flail around, then cut through the body or thread of the turnbuckle with a hacksaw to release the tension in the rigging. This might be safer than cutting the wire. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Frantz Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 7:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Paint in Turnbuckle Threads Sandblasting? I'm not sure if the turn buckles will be in place when you go to clean them but it might help either way. That is a suggestion but realize that the hardware is 15 years old. Some of the heavily stressed gear could be fatigued. Taking this into account new turn buckles might not seem that expensive. Also; I'm not sure if I read you rich bit I'd be very careful about cutting any wire under tension. Look for someone locally with the experience & tools. Now thinking about this if you want to relieve some of that tension and decide that new turn buckles are in order why not soak the turn buckles with penetrating oil and and slowly loosen the tension buy running the threads back and forth. Sure you might have put some effort into it but it should be safer than trying to cut the wire. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Dec 27, 2008, at 12:56 PM, silascrosby > wrote: > Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. > A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and > painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and > impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I > am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another > offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed > ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the > staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. > The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical). > I have thought of : > > 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. > > 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the > threads. > 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in > this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray > bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint > surface. > > 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be > under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, > but OK if I have halyard backups. > > 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. > > 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. > > 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and > sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, > if the most labour-intensive. > > Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is > my biggest problem, life is alright. > > Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. > > > cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19180|19085|2008-12-29 02:27:38|Paul Wilson|Re: Rode|Brent, I am not sure if I am following you correctly, but I think wire on top of rope on the drum would just cut into the rope since it is so soft and allow the cable to bury itself. The pull is so great the hardwood gets crushed and compressed a bit. I keep my extra anchor rope on hose reels so I can quickly add on some if needed. Further info……When I broke my ¼ inch cable, I was using a snubber although it was probably on the short side since I was in shallow water. The snubber never broke so maybe it slipped??? I remember having a hard time getting a rolling hitch to grip on greased ¼ inch cable sometimes. Using a Prusik knot on the 3/8 cable has never slipped, however. Your idea of using shorter lengths of wire and eyes would have been better with the ¼ inch cable. I had only about 30 seconds warning when the cable suddenly snagged and then snapped. Conditions were extreme and when the cable snagged, the boat pitched so hard it threw books out of a shelf. Not a fun day, but it could have been worse since I was onboard and had another anchor ready. The only thing I can think of was that the thimble and nicro-press were held at right angles to the pull of the cable when it got caught in the coral. I suspect it then sheared the cable. I recovered the gear later and it snapped right where the cable entered the nicro-press. Everthing was relatively new with little corrosion and properly crimped. Following my experience, I don’t really trust the smaller cable and crimps …..at least for a 36 footer. So how long does your SS cable last in the water? Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rode I fill mine up with rope. More usefull. A length of floating poly on the end will keep it afloat if you are caught on a lee shore and have to leave your ground tackle behind for a day or two. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I was a little skeptical about the wood as well but it lasted about 10 years before needing replacing. I used a hardwood and I think the grease kept it from rotting. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 2:39 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rode > > > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 07:17:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > > Yup, the only practical way to stow cable is on a spool. Using 3/8 > > inch cable is overkill but I chose it because it was available at the > > time, easy to splice, and I like the extra weight. I built up the > > center axle on the drum with some bits of wood to about 4 or 5 inch > > diameter so that the cable isn’t kinked too tightly around the drum. > > With smaller cable it wasn’t a problem but I was concerned about > > wrapping larger cable around too tight of a diameter. > > Thanks, Paul; that all makes sense. I'd be a bit suspicious of wood on > the axle - I still remember seeing the aluminum hub of a fishing reel > that had collapsed after the fishing line was wound onto it under too > much tension - but I'm planning on building a spool like that on Ulysses > sometime in the next few years (frankly, when my current chain shows > signs of wearing out!), and I'm doing a bit of mental info-hoarding > before I do. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19181|19116|2008-12-29 02:27:38|Alan H. Boucher|Re: Cleaning up after foaming|Try an electric carving knife. brentswain38 wrote: > > I wouldn't want to risk setting fire to it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , djackson99@... wrote: > > > > > > Would a hot wire cutter work on this stuff, in order to remove the > high spots? > > > > --Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 4:20 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cleaning up after foaming > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanding is the only way to get it off bulkheads and wood surfaces if > > > > you haven't masked it first. I highly recommend masking before foaming. > > > > To slice the high spots off, I take a fish fillet knife, heat it red > > > > near the handle , then bend it to a 45 degree angle. This gives you a > > > > knife that lets you slice the high spots off, far easier to deal with > > > > than the dust from grinding it off( dust itchier than fibreglass, and > > > > you don't want to inhale it.) > > > > Painting it with cheap or free latex from the recycling centres > > > > drastically improves it's fire resistance. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Paul Thompson" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Can those of you that have had there boats spray foamed please tell me > > > > > what method and tools they used to clean up afterwards. I have just > > > > > had La Chica done and there is a fair amount of cleaning up to be done > > > > > now. Advice and input from those who have done it, would be most > > > > > welcome. > > > > > > > > > > For those interested, La Chica is not a BS design but a traditional > > > > > 32ft, heavy displacement double- ender. Displacement is about 18 000 > > > > > lbs , that would be similar to the BS36 and area to be covered with > > > > > foam should also be similar. It cost me NZ$ 1 200.00 as of yesterday. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19182|19182|2008-12-29 02:29:11|Alex|posts not getting through|Sorry all, some of your posts Yahoo tagged as Spam last week and didn't get through. I have patched them through now. If you notice your post now arriving, this is what happened. Alex| 19183|19182|2008-12-29 20:32:14|Paul Wilson|Re: posts not getting through|Alex, thanks for taking me out of the sin bin. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19184|19156|2008-12-30 03:26:20|brentswain38|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Fluid Film which comes in a red and yellow spray can disolves rust and leaves lanolin behind. Heating the threaded part of turnbuckle body expands it and thus loosens it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I have had luck soaking frozen metal parts in vinegar. It slowly works its > way on any rust and may take a day or two but it works. I have heard Coke > works as well. I am not sure how you would get it to stay on a vertical > surface and if it's paint holding it frozen probably won't help. If you > aren't interested in saving the turnbuckles, you could lash the eye down so > it doesn't flail around, then cut through the body or thread of the > turnbuckle with a hacksaw to release the tension in the rigging. This might > be safer than cutting the wire. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of David Frantz > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 7:24 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Paint in Turnbuckle Threads > > > > Sandblasting? > > I'm not sure if the turn buckles will be in place when you go to clean > them but it might help either way. > > That is a suggestion but realize that the hardware is 15 years old. > Some of the heavily stressed gear could be fatigued. Taking this into > account new turn buckles might not seem that expensive. > > Also; I'm not sure if I read you rich bit I'd be very careful about > cutting any wire under tension. Look for someone locally with the > experience & tools. > > Now thinking about this if you want to relieve some of that tension > and decide that new turn buckles are in order why not soak the turn > buckles with penetrating oil and and slowly loosen the tension buy > running the threads back and forth. Sure you might have put some > effort into it but it should be safer than trying to cut the wire. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Dec 27, 2008, at 12:56 PM, silascrosby > wrote: > > > Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. > > A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and > > painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and > > impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I > > am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another > > offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed > > ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the > > staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. > > The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical). > > I have thought of : > > > > 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. > > > > 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the > > threads. > > 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in > > this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray > > bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint > > surface. > > > > 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be > > under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, > > but OK if I have halyard backups. > > > > 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. > > > > 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. > > > > 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and > > sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, > > if the most labour-intensive. > > > > Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is > > my biggest problem, life is alright. > > > > Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. > > > > > > cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19185|19085|2008-12-30 03:26:48|brentswain38|Re: Rode|I've had it bury a bit , but never enought to be a problem. In a swell the snubber looped thru the nearest eye takes the load. Some marine supplies throw out perfectly good plastic rope reels when they empty. Check their dumpsters. Sounds like you have far less problem with meat hooks in Galv than I've had in stainless. This matches my expereince with galv halyards. Never had a meat hook on one, but I see plenty with stainles halyards. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Brent, > > > > I am not sure if I am following you correctly, but I think wire on top of rope on the drum would just cut into the rope since it is so soft and allow the cable to bury itself. The pull is so great the hardwood gets crushed and compressed a bit. I keep my extra anchor rope on hose reels so I can quickly add on some if needed. > > > > Further info……When I broke my ¼ inch cable, I was using a snubber although it was probably on the short side since I was in shallow water. The snubber never broke so maybe it slipped??? I remember having a hard time getting a rolling hitch to grip on greased ¼ inch cable sometimes. Using a Prusik knot on the 3/8 cable has never slipped, however. Your idea of using shorter lengths of wire and eyes would have been better with the ¼ inch cable. I had only about 30 seconds warning when the cable suddenly snagged and then snapped. Conditions were extreme and when the cable snagged, the boat pitched so hard it threw books out of a shelf. Not a fun day, but it could have been worse since I was onboard and had another anchor ready. The only thing I can think of was that the thimble and nicro-press were held at right angles to the pull of the cable when it got caught in the coral. I suspect it then sheared the cable. I recovered the gear later and it snapped right where the cable entered the nicro-press. Everthing was relatively new with little corrosion and properly crimped. Following my experience, I don’t really trust the smaller cable and crimps …..at least for a 36 footer. > > > > So how long does your SS cable last in the water? > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:26 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rode > > > > I fill mine up with rope. More usefull. A length of floating poly on > the end will keep it afloat if you are caught on a lee shore and have > to leave your ground tackle behind for a day or two. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > I was a little skeptical about the wood as well but it lasted about > 10 years before needing replacing. I used a hardwood and I think the > grease kept it from rotting. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 2:39 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rode > > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 07:17:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > Hi Ben, > > > > > > Yup, the only practical way to stow cable is on a spool. Using 3/8 > > > inch cable is overkill but I chose it because it was available at the > > > time, easy to splice, and I like the extra weight. I built up the > > > center axle on the drum with some bits of wood to about 4 or 5 inch > > > diameter so that the cable isn’t kinked too tightly around the drum. > > > With smaller cable it wasn’t a problem but I was concerned about > > > wrapping larger cable around too tight of a diameter. > > > > Thanks, Paul; that all makes sense. I'd be a bit suspicious of wood on > > the axle - I still remember seeing the aluminum hub of a fishing reel > > that had collapsed after the fishing line was wound onto it under too > > much tension - but I'm planning on building a spool like that on Ulysses > > sometime in the next few years (frankly, when my current chain shows > > signs of wearing out!), and I'm doing a bit of mental info-hoarding > > before I do. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19186|19186|2008-12-30 03:50:31|Alex|Alex' BS 30|Hi group, have posted pix of my BS 30 twin keeler in the group's album section under "Alex's BS30", for those interested to see this interesting duck. She's a modified 31 type, flush-decked with a hard dodger, and 9.9 hp high-thrust outboard in a well. I got her last fall and plan to have her out and about soon where I can test out her characteristics. In time I plan on adding a wind-vane for self-steering, as well as retrofitting her with a proper pilot house, possibly of aluminum, bolted onto a flange. Brent has some ideas about how this can work, and it should result in more light down below as well as an inside steering position at last. As it is, the hard dodger isn't bad protection from multiple angles of wind, but it will never have the armchair comfort of a pilot house, nor the safety of a proper ship's hatch. Luckily the boat came with a very spiffing wind-generator, and the boat should be pretty self-sufficient once a water-catchment system is added. I'll add updates to the group when I have a chance to have some more fun with the ship, over time! Alex| 19187|19186|2008-12-30 06:41:37|thesnotrocket|Re: Alex' BS 30|Nice Alex, that flush deck looks a lot better than I thought it would from the description. How much headroom does it have under it? How does the outboard well setup work? Is it offset to clear the skeg? It seems like a great idea but I can't really visualize how it would fit in a Brent boat without being too deep in the water. Interesting is definitely an understatement. I hope she sails well and you have lots of fun with her :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi group, have posted pix of my BS 30 twin keeler in the group's album > section under "Alex's BS30", for those interested to see this > interesting duck. She's a modified 31 type, flush-decked with a hard > dodger, and 9.9 hp high-thrust outboard in a well. I got her last fall > and plan to have her out and about soon where I can test out her > characteristics. > > In time I plan on adding a wind-vane for self-steering, as well as > retrofitting her with a proper pilot house, possibly of aluminum, > bolted onto a flange. Brent has some ideas about how this can work, and > it should result in more light down below as well as an inside steering > position at last. As it is, the hard dodger isn't bad protection from > multiple angles of wind, but it will never have the armchair comfort of > a pilot house, nor the safety of a proper ship's hatch. > > Luckily the boat came with a very spiffing wind-generator, and the boat > should be pretty self-sufficient once a water-catchment system is > added. I'll add updates to the group when I have a chance to have some > more fun with the ship, over time! > > Alex > | 19188|19186|2008-12-30 11:05:34|James Pronk|Re: Alex' BS 30|Hello Alex your little ship looks great! It looks like you will have a lot of fun with her. After looking at the photos I was wondering about inside steering on that boat and you are working on that. Good luck and we are all looking forward to updates. Thank you, James Pronk. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi group, have posted pix of my BS 30 twin keeler in the group's album > section under "Alex's BS30", for those interested to see this > interesting duck. She's a modified 31 type, flush-decked with a hard > dodger, and 9.9 hp high-thrust outboard in a well. I got her last fall > and plan to have her out and about soon where I can test out her > characteristics. > > In time I plan on adding a wind-vane for self-steering, as well as > retrofitting her with a proper pilot house, possibly of aluminum, > bolted onto a flange. Brent has some ideas about how this can work, and > it should result in more light down below as well as an inside steering > position at last. As it is, the hard dodger isn't bad protection from > multiple angles of wind, but it will never have the armchair comfort of > a pilot house, nor the safety of a proper ship's hatch. > > Luckily the boat came with a very spiffing wind-generator, and the boat > should be pretty self-sufficient once a water-catchment system is > added. I'll add updates to the group when I have a chance to have some > more fun with the ship, over time! > > Alex > | 19189|19156|2008-12-30 18:42:27|brentswain38|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Epoxy tar goes real soft when you heat it. Then you can wire brush it off, turn the body 1/4 turn and brush off the rest. I'm sure you could find the right sized racing bike innertube behind the bike shop, to be a tight fit over the turnbuckle threads, after you grease it and wire the top end. Then you can hocky tape and epoxy tar the works, after it has had a season to set up. With high tensile 1x7 wire , it doesn't need any adjustment, after the first season of cruising. Galv , left bare , expands as it oxidises, so would cause the turnbuckle to size up anyway, and, unlike paint, it couldn't be removed by warming it with a torch. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Fluid Film which comes in a red and yellow spray can disolves rust and > leaves lanolin behind. Heating the threaded part of turnbuckle body > expands it and thus loosens it. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > I have had luck soaking frozen metal parts in vinegar. It slowly > works its > > way on any rust and may take a day or two but it works. I have > heard Coke > > works as well. I am not sure how you would get it to stay on a vertical > > surface and if it's paint holding it frozen probably won't help. If you > > aren't interested in saving the turnbuckles, you could lash the eye > down so > > it doesn't flail around, then cut through the body or thread of the > > turnbuckle with a hacksaw to release the tension in the rigging. > This might > > be safer than cutting the wire. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of David Frantz > > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 7:24 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Paint in Turnbuckle Threads > > > > > > > > Sandblasting? > > > > I'm not sure if the turn buckles will be in place when you go to clean > > them but it might help either way. > > > > That is a suggestion but realize that the hardware is 15 years old. > > Some of the heavily stressed gear could be fatigued. Taking this into > > account new turn buckles might not seem that expensive. > > > > Also; I'm not sure if I read you rich bit I'd be very careful about > > cutting any wire under tension. Look for someone locally with the > > experience & tools. > > > > Now thinking about this if you want to relieve some of that tension > > and decide that new turn buckles are in order why not soak the turn > > buckles with penetrating oil and and slowly loosen the tension buy > > running the threads back and forth. Sure you might have put some > > effort into it but it should be safer than trying to cut the wire. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Dec 27, 2008, at 12:56 PM, silascrosby > > wrote: > > > > > Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. > > > A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and > > > painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and > > > impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I > > > am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another > > > offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed > > > ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the > > > staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. > > > The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical). > > > I have thought of : > > > > > > 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. > > > > > > 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the > > > threads. > > > 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in > > > this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray > > > bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint > > > surface. > > > > > > 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be > > > under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, > > > but OK if I have halyard backups. > > > > > > 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. > > > > > > 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. > > > > > > 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and > > > sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, > > > if the most labour-intensive. > > > > > > Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is > > > my biggest problem, life is alright. > > > > > > Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. > > > > > > > > > cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19190|19186|2008-12-31 00:08:12|jeagle999|Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck????|Hi I was wondering about the flat deck, what are the pro's and con's ? Weight, strength, windows, headroom, looks etc.... Thanks for your time, j -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Hello Alex > your little ship looks great! It looks like you will have a lot of > fun with her. After looking at the photos I was wondering about > inside steering on that boat and you are working on that. > Good luck and we are all looking forward to updates. > Thank you, > James Pronk. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > Hi group, have posted pix of my BS 30 twin keeler in the group's > album > > section under "Alex's BS30", for those interested to see this > > interesting duck. She's a modified 31 type, flush-decked with a > hard > > dodger, and 9.9 hp high-thrust outboard in a well. I got her last > fall > > and plan to have her out and about soon where I can test out her > > characteristics. > > > > In time I plan on adding a wind-vane for self-steering, as well as > > retrofitting her with a proper pilot house, possibly of aluminum, > > bolted onto a flange. Brent has some ideas about how this can work, > and > > it should result in more light down below as well as an inside > steering > > position at last. As it is, the hard dodger isn't bad protection > from > > multiple angles of wind, but it will never have the armchair > comfort of > > a pilot house, nor the safety of a proper ship's hatch. > > > > Luckily the boat came with a very spiffing wind-generator, and the > boat > > should be pretty self-sufficient once a water-catchment system is > > added. I'll add updates to the group when I have a chance to have > some > > more fun with the ship, over time! > > > > Alex > > > | 19191|19156|2008-12-31 09:20:49|will jones|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Don't give up on the paint remover yet.  Try some 3M safest strip.  Just duck tape some plastic down on the boat (several layers if you are paranoid), apply liberally (glob it on then glob on some more) to the painted parts, wrap with plastic and come back in a couple of days.  Should peel the paint right off.  You can blast the paint off with a pressure sprayer.  This stuff is water based.  If you do not have 3M available, look for any adipate + glutamate paint stripper.  Get a stripper with both in it and not just one.  I haven't come up against a paint it won't soften, enamels, latex, epoxy whatever.  It will damage fiberglass, so use some HDPE plastic to protect surfaces.  Most of the 3M available in retail stores is their weakest concentration, so it might take a while to work.  You have to wrap with plastic to keep moist.  I typically use the painters plastic the ~.15mil stuff. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Sat, 12/27/08, silascrosby wrote: From: silascrosby Subject: [origamiboats] Paint in Turnbuckle Threads To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 12:56 PM Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical) . I have thought of : 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the threads. 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint surface. 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, but OK if I have halyard backups. 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, if the most labour-intensive. Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is my biggest problem, life is alright. Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19192|19153|2008-12-31 09:33:39|will jones|Re: Foam and Clean Up|Just a few additional comments on this thread and poly foams.  Best way to remove it is to prevent it from sticking in the first place.  Once cured, there are no reasonable solvents to soften or dissolve it.  I typically use 3X coats of Johnson paste furniture wax.  For larger areas I look for a cheap car wax that does not have any silicones or polymers added (harder to find these days).  Stay away from floor waxes, even for wood floors.  Virtually all have acrylic added, at least around me.  You can easily remove these waxes with 1/4 cup of ammonia in water.  A couple of wipings and a wipe rinse will pretty much take the wax off.  Use a higher concentration depending on your tolerance to ammonia.  Don't forget the gloves, kinda hard on the hands.   Charge up some plastic with a nylon duster, repeat every so often for easier foam shavings cleanup.   As the thread clearly shows, anything serrated is pretty much the best way to trim and shape. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Sat, 12/27/08, prairiemaidca wrote: From: prairiemaidca Subject: [origamiboats] Foam and Clean Up To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 9:38 AM Hi All: With Prairie Maid we were very lucky that we found a pro installer who had some smaller gear for working in tight spaces. All the others we talked to did buidings etc. with nozzels that put out foam like a fire hose. He could get the foam very nicely behind the mounting strips and into the tight spots. He also was extreamly good at not ending up with large amounts of excess all over. I purcharsed a serrated flexible bread knife and did the trimming with it. Given the surface area of a 36 it still takes a lot of work but from what I've heard we had very little trimming to do compared to most. Even with just the knife the static cling is very annoying. I personally would not put anything in the boat that you would not want that foam to stick on. It also might break something if it expands in behind it, not unlike water freezing in a closed in space. Martin.. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19193|19156|2008-12-31 11:04:26|silascrosby|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|OK, good idea.Lots of good ideas. I am going to have a draw prize for what I judge as the best solution to remove paint from turnbuckle threads. The draw prize will be a specialty beer and or a piece of Christmas fruit cake. The draw will be this evening when I return from a day of ski-touring. While it will be me that gets the prize ,I will be thinking of all the great paint removal ideas and those who made them. The weather is moderating here on the BC coast so I will get to some outside boat work next week. cheers, Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Don't give up on the paint remover yet.  Try some 3M safest strip.  Just duck tape some plastic down on the boat (several layers if you are paranoid), apply liberally (glob it on then glob on some more) to the painted parts, wrap with plastic and come back in a couple of days.  Should peel the paint right off.  You can blast the paint off with a pressure sprayer.  This stuff is water based.  If you do not have 3M available, look for any adipate + glutamate paint stripper.  Get a stripper with both in it and not just one.  I haven't come up against a paint it won't soften, enamels, latex, epoxy whatever.  It will damage fiberglass, so use some HDPE plastic to protect surfaces.  Most of the 3M available in retail stores is their weakest concentration, so it might take a while to work.  You have to wrap with plastic to keep moist.  I typically use the painters plastic the ~.15mil stuff. > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Sat, 12/27/08, silascrosby wrote: > > From: silascrosby > Subject: [origamiboats] Paint in Turnbuckle Threads > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 12:56 PM > > > > > > > Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. > A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and > painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and > impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I > am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another > offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed > ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the > staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. > The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical) . > I have thought of : > > 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. > > 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the > threads. > 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in > this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray > bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint > surface. > > 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be > under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, > but OK if I have halyard backups. > > 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. > > 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. > > 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and > sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, > if the most labour-intensive. > > Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is > my biggest problem, life is alright. > > Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. > > cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19194|19186|2008-12-31 12:36:55|Alex|Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck????|Hi J, The hull is pretty much identical to any other, and the flush deck is raised a little (about 6 inches) above the bulwark pipes. It's cabin top is therefor higher than the side decks on a regular cabin Swain hull. I haven't had the hull dried out to make measurements, but it looks to me that Evan and the previous owner did not raise the hull sides higher, the boat is identical to a regular hull then they added "cabin sides" to the top of the bulwark pipe tops, then went across the decks to the other side. I believe the owner then made a lower cabin sole to make up for the lowered headroom (there isn't a huge cavity under the sole), and put water tanks to the sides. Headroom is just ok for me, a 5'10.5" man, though the previous owner was shorter and likely enjoyed more airspace overhead than I do. The weight of the hull should be about the same as any swain of that size, as there is no more material in the decks (maybe even less) than a cabin boat and no diesel tankage, nor diesel engine aft. The outboard is light enough (just) that I can carry it myself, and is situated in a well in the cockpit on centerline, forward of the skeg. I"ll get pix of that set-up when I dry her out soon. There are 4 portlights in the boat, with the one in the head a stout opening-type. Fortunately because the previous owner didn't raise the decks up so high, she doesn't look ungainly to my eye the way some flush-deckers do, nor does she have any unusual motion at the dock. I did own a flush deck British boat once, as a liveaboard, and it had a very high flush deck and an odd motion. Luckily this boat feels normal. This has come at the expense of lowered headroom, but I believe that the upside is that the boat should feel and sail no differently than any other Swain hull. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeagle999" wrote: > > Hi > > I was wondering about the flat deck, what are the pro's and con's ? > Weight, strength, windows, headroom, looks etc.... > > > > Thanks for your time, > j > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > wrote: > > > > Hello Alex > > your little ship looks great! It looks like you will have a lot of > > fun with her. After looking at the photos I was wondering about > > inside steering on that boat and you are working on that. > > Good luck and we are all looking forward to updates. > > Thank you, > > James Pronk. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > Hi group, have posted pix of my BS 30 twin keeler in the group's > > album > > > section under "Alex's BS30", for those interested to see this > > > interesting duck. She's a modified 31 type, flush-decked with a > > hard > > > dodger, and 9.9 hp high-thrust outboard in a well. I got her last > > fall > > > and plan to have her out and about soon where I can test out her > > > characteristics. > > > > > > In time I plan on adding a wind-vane for self-steering, as well as > > > retrofitting her with a proper pilot house, possibly of aluminum, > > > bolted onto a flange. Brent has some ideas about how this can > work, > > and > > > it should result in more light down below as well as an inside > > steering > > > position at last. As it is, the hard dodger isn't bad protection > > from > > > multiple angles of wind, but it will never have the armchair > > comfort of > > > a pilot house, nor the safety of a proper ship's hatch. > > > > > > Luckily the boat came with a very spiffing wind-generator, and the > > boat > > > should be pretty self-sufficient once a water-catchment system is > > > added. I'll add updates to the group when I have a chance to have > > some > > > more fun with the ship, over time! > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > | 19195|19079|2008-12-31 14:13:21|James Pronk|Re: VW Jetta|Hello All I just came across this HURTH MARINE TRANSMISSION Gearbox HBW 250-2R. It has a gear ratio of 1.88:1. would this be a good mate to the 1.5 liter VW diesel? Thank you and Happy New Year to you all, James Pronk.| 19196|19153|2008-12-31 14:40:22|abellzey|Re: Foam and Clean Up|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > Just a few additional comments on this thread and poly foams.  Best way to remove it is to prevent it from sticking in the first place.  Once cured, there are no reasonable solvents to soften or dissolve it.  I typically use 3X coats of Johnson paste furniture wax.  For larger areas I look for a cheap car wax that does not have any silicones or polymers added (harder to find these days).  Stay away from floor waxes, even for wood floors.  Virtually all have acrylic added, at least around me.  You can easily remove these waxes with 1/4 cup of ammonia in water.  A couple of wipings and a wipe rinse will pretty much take the wax off.  Use a higher concentration depending on your tolerance to ammonia.  Don't forget the gloves, kinda hard on the hands. >   > Charge up some plastic with a nylon duster, repeat every so often for easier foam shavings cleanup. >   > As the thread clearly shows, anything serrated is pretty much the best way to trim and shape. > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Sat, 12/27/08, prairiemaidca wrote: > > From: prairiemaidca > Subject: [origamiboats] Foam and Clean Up > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 9:38 AM > > > > > > > Hi All: With Prairie Maid we were very lucky that we found a pro > installer who had some smaller gear for working in tight spaces. All > the others we talked to did buidings etc. with nozzels that put out > foam like a fire hose. He could get the foam very nicely behind the > mounting strips and into the tight spots. He also was extreamly good > at not ending up with large amounts of excess all over. I purcharsed a > serrated flexible bread knife and did the trimming with it. Given the > surface area of a 36 it still takes a lot of work but from what I've > heard we had very little trimming to do compared to most. Even with > just the knife the static cling is very annoying. I personally would > not put anything in the boat that you would not want that foam to stick > on. It also might break something if it expands in behind it, not > unlike water freezing in a closed in space. Martin.. > > I was wondering about building temporary forms to hold the foam. Putting plenty of pressure relief holes in it that could also be used for injecting at various places to ensure filling the form. If a good bond breaker was used the form would come off easily and you could foam one section at a time. > I have only just finished putting my hull together, so I am a little ahead of myself, but I enjoy thinking about and planning future steps. > Keep up all the boat building chatter. There are a lot of good ideas out there. > Al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19197|19156|2008-12-31 16:35:03|renrut5|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Contest? Ok, I'll bite... 1. Get someone else to clean the threads while you go skiing. :) or; 2. Propane torch and stiff wire brush (file brush might work). or; 3. Run a die over the threads if they aren't galvanized. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > OK, good idea.Lots of good ideas. I am going to have a draw prize for > what I judge as the best solution to remove paint from turnbuckle > threads. The draw prize will be a specialty beer and or a piece of > Christmas fruit cake. The draw will be this evening when I return from > a day of ski-touring. > While it will be me that gets the prize ,I will be thinking of all > the great paint removal ideas and those who made them. > The weather is moderating here on the BC coast so I will get to some > outside boat work next week. > cheers, Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > > > Don't give up on the paint remover yet.  Try some 3M safest strip.  > Just duck tape some plastic down on the boat (several layers if you > are paranoid), apply liberally (glob it on then glob on some more) to > the painted parts, wrap with plastic and come back in a couple of > days.  Should peel the paint right off.  You can blast the paint > off with a pressure sprayer.  This stuff is water based.  If you do > not have 3M available, look for any adipate + glutamate paint > stripper.  Get a stripper with both in it and not just one.  I haven't > come up against a paint it won't soften, enamels, latex, epoxy > whatever.  It will damage fiberglass, so use some HDPE plastic to > protect surfaces.  Most of the 3M available in retail stores is their > weakest concentration, so it might take a while to work.  You have to > wrap with plastic to keep moist.  I typically use the painters plastic > the ~.15mil stuff. > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --- On Sat, 12/27/08, silascrosby wrote: > > > > From: silascrosby > > Subject: [origamiboats] Paint in Turnbuckle Threads > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 12:56 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. > > A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and > > painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and > > impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I > > am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another > > offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed > > ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the > > staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. > > The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical) . > > I have thought of : > > > > 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. > > > > 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the > > threads. > > 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in > > this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray > > bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint > > surface. > > > > 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be > > under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, > > but OK if I have halyard backups. > > > > 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. > > > > 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. > > > > 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and > > sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, > > if the most labour-intensive. > > > > Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is > > my biggest problem, life is alright. > > > > Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. > > > > cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19198|19079|2008-12-31 18:53:03|brentswain38|Re: VW Jetta|James That would work well, a slightly smaller, prop for slightly less motoring performance , but less drag for sailing performance. Your plans are in the mail Thanks Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Hello All > I just came across this HURTH MARINE TRANSMISSION Gearbox HBW 250-2R. > It has a gear ratio of 1.88:1. would this be a good mate to the 1.5 > liter VW diesel? > Thank you and Happy New Year to you all, > James Pronk. > | 19199|19156|2008-12-31 18:54:09|brentswain38|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Finding a left hand die is the big problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "renrut5" wrote: > > Contest? Ok, I'll bite... > > > 1. Get someone else to clean the threads while you go skiing. :) > > or; > > 2. Propane torch and stiff wire brush (file brush might work). > > or; > > 3. Run a die over the threads if they aren't galvanized. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > OK, good idea.Lots of good ideas. I am going to have a draw prize for > > what I judge as the best solution to remove paint from turnbuckle > > threads. The draw prize will be a specialty beer and or a piece of > > Christmas fruit cake. The draw will be this evening when I return from > > a day of ski-touring. > > While it will be me that gets the prize ,I will be thinking of all > > the great paint removal ideas and those who made them. > > The weather is moderating here on the BC coast so I will get to some > > outside boat work next week. > > cheers, Steve > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > > > > > Don't give up on the paint remover yet. Try some 3M safest strip. > > Just duck tape some plastic down on the boat (several layers if you > > are paranoid), apply liberally (glob it on then glob on some more) to > > the painted parts, wrap with plastic and come back in a couple of > > days. Should peel the paint right off. You can blast the paint > > off with a pressure sprayer. This stuff is water based. If you do > > not have 3M available, look for any adipate + glutamate paint > > stripper. Get a stripper with both in it and not just one. I haven't > > come up against a paint it won't soften, enamels, latex, epoxy > > whatever. It will damage fiberglass, so use some HDPE plastic to > > protect surfaces. Most of the 3M available in retail stores is their > > weakest concentration, so it might take a while to work. You have to > > wrap with plastic to keep moist. I typically use the painters plastic > > the ~.15mil stuff. > > > > > > Valhalla > > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > > Bloomington, IN > > > > > > --- On Sat, 12/27/08, silascrosby wrote: > > > > > > From: silascrosby > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Paint in Turnbuckle Threads > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 12:56 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. > > > A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and > > > painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and > > > impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I > > > am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another > > > offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed > > > ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the > > > staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. > > > The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical) . > > > I have thought of : > > > > > > 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. > > > > > > 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the > > > threads. > > > 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in > > > this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray > > > bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint > > > surface. > > > > > > 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be > > > under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, > > > but OK if I have halyard backups. > > > > > > 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. > > > > > > 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. > > > > > > 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and > > > sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, > > > if the most labour-intensive. > > > > > > Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is > > > my biggest problem, life is alright. > > > > > > Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. > > > > > > cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 19200|19153|2008-12-31 18:55:59|brentswain38|Re: Foam and Clean Up|There could be enough left to stop paint from sticking in the future, especially if it soaks into wood.. Masking would be a better route to take. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "abellzey" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > > > Just a few additional comments on this thread and poly foams. Best > way to remove it is to prevent it from sticking in the first place. > Once cured, there are no reasonable solvents to soften or dissolve > it. I typically use 3X coats of Johnson paste furniture wax. For > larger areas I look for a cheap car wax that does not have any > silicones or polymers added (harder to find these days). Stay away > from floor waxes, even for wood floors. Virtually all have acrylic > added, at least around me. You can easily remove these waxes with 1/4 > cup of ammonia in water. A couple of wipings and a wipe rinse will > pretty much take the wax off. Use a higher concentration depending on > your tolerance to ammonia. Don't forget the gloves, kinda hard on the > hands. > > > > Charge up some plastic with a nylon duster, repeat every so often > for easier foam shavings cleanup. > > > > As the thread clearly shows, anything serrated is pretty much the > best way to trim and shape. > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --- On Sat, 12/27/08, prairiemaidca wrote: > > > > From: prairiemaidca > > Subject: [origamiboats] Foam and Clean Up > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 9:38 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All: With Prairie Maid we were very lucky that we found a pro > > installer who had some smaller gear for working in tight spaces. All > > the others we talked to did buidings etc. with nozzels that put out > > foam like a fire hose. He could get the foam very nicely behind the > > mounting strips and into the tight spots. He also was extreamly good > > at not ending up with large amounts of excess all over. I purcharsed a > > serrated flexible bread knife and did the trimming with it. Given the > > surface area of a 36 it still takes a lot of work but from what I've > > heard we had very little trimming to do compared to most. Even with > > just the knife the static cling is very annoying. I personally would > > not put anything in the boat that you would not want that foam to stick > > on. It also might break something if it expands in behind it, not > > unlike water freezing in a closed in space. Martin.. > > > > I was wondering about building temporary forms to hold the foam. > Putting plenty of pressure relief holes in it that could also be used > for injecting at various places to ensure filling the form. If a good > bond breaker was used the form would come off easily and you could > foam one section at a time. > > I have only just finished putting my hull together, so I am a > little ahead of myself, but I enjoy thinking about and planning future > steps. > > Keep up all the boat building chatter. There are a lot of good > ideas out there. > > Al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19201|19156|2008-12-31 22:30:54|vic_lub|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Use a bolt cutter with 4 foot handles and cut the turnbuckle, not the wire... Cheers Vic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > OK, good idea.Lots of good ideas. I am going to have a draw prize for > what I judge as the best solution to remove paint from turnbuckle > threads. The draw prize will be a specialty beer and or a piece of > Christmas fruit cake. The draw will be this evening when I return from > a day of ski-touring. > While it will be me that gets the prize ,I will be thinking of all > the great paint removal ideas and those who made them. > The weather is moderating here on the BC coast so I will get to some > outside boat work next week. > cheers, Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > > > Don't give up on the paint remover yet.  Try some 3M safest strip.  > Just duck tape some plastic down on the boat (several layers if you > are paranoid), apply liberally (glob it on then glob on some more) to > the painted parts, wrap with plastic and come back in a couple of > days.  Should peel the paint right off.  You can blast the paint > off with a pressure sprayer.  This stuff is water based.  If you do > not have 3M available, look for any adipate + glutamate paint > stripper.  Get a stripper with both in it and not just one.  I haven't > come up against a paint it won't soften, enamels, latex, epoxy > whatever.  It will damage fiberglass, so use some HDPE plastic to > protect surfaces.  Most of the 3M available in retail stores is their > weakest concentration, so it might take a while to work.  You have to > wrap with plastic to keep moist.  I typically use the painters plastic > the ~.15mil stuff. > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --- On Sat, 12/27/08, silascrosby wrote: > > > > From: silascrosby > > Subject: [origamiboats] Paint in Turnbuckle Threads > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 12:56 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. > > A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and > > painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and > > impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old and I > > am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another > > offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with pressed > > ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the > > staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. > > The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical) . > > I have thought of : > > > > 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. > > > > 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the > > threads. > > 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in > > this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to spray > > bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin paint > > surface. > > > > 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be > > under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and slack, > > but OK if I have halyard backups. > > > > 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. > > > > 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. > > > > 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and > > sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my best bet, > > if the most labour-intensive. > > > > Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If this is > > my biggest problem, life is alright. > > > > Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and suggestions. > > > > cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19202|19156|2009-01-01 18:34:43|theboilerflue|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|I have a pair of giant 4 foot bolt cutters if you want to use them steve give me a call 218-2929 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vic_lub" wrote: > > Use a bolt cutter with 4 foot handles and cut the turnbuckle, not > the wire... > Cheers > Vic > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > OK, good idea.Lots of good ideas. I am going to have a draw prize > for > > what I judge as the best solution to remove paint from turnbuckle > > threads. The draw prize will be a specialty beer and or a piece of > > Christmas fruit cake. The draw will be this evening when I return > from > > a day of ski-touring. > > While it will be me that gets the prize ,I will be thinking of all > > the great paint removal ideas and those who made them. > > The weather is moderating here on the BC coast so I will get to > some > > outside boat work next week. > > cheers, Steve > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones > wrote: > > > > > > Don't give up on the paint remover yet. Try some 3M safest > strip. > > Just duck tape some plastic down on the boat (several layers if you > > are paranoid), apply liberally (glob it on then glob on some more) > to > > the painted parts, wrap with plastic and come back in a couple of > > days. Should peel the paint right off. You can blast the paint > > off with a pressure sprayer. This stuff is water based. If you do > > not have 3M available, look for any adipate + glutamate paint > > stripper. Get a stripper with both in it and not just one. I > haven't > > come up against a paint it won't soften, enamels, latex, epoxy > > whatever. It will damage fiberglass, so use some HDPE plastic to > > protect surfaces. Most of the 3M available in retail stores is > their > > weakest concentration, so it might take a while to work. You have > to > > wrap with plastic to keep moist. I typically use the painters > plastic > > the ~.15mil stuff. > > > > > > Valhalla > > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > > Bloomington, IN > > > > > > --- On Sat, 12/27/08, silascrosby wrote: > > > > > > From: silascrosby > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Paint in Turnbuckle Threads > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 12:56 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, Folks, I need some ideas to solve my little problem. > > > A few years ago I went a bit nuts with the white enamel paint and > > > painted the body and threads of my turnbuckles. Misguided and > > > impetuous but I did it. Now, the standing rigging is 15 yrs old > and I > > > am going to replace it all (including turnbuckles) before another > > > offshore trip ( for peace of mind). It is all 1x7 galv. with > pressed > > > ss sleeves. There is no rust except at the bottom 1 foot of the > > > staysail stay where the staysail hanks wear a bit when furled. > > > The turnbuckles are 'open body' type (not cylindrical) . > > > I have thought of : > > > > > > 1. leaving it as is and go with the 'old' standing rig. > > > > > > 2. wire brush - doesn't work, can't get at enough of the > > > threads. > > > 3. paint remover - tried it. Does not seem to work well in > > > this setting and the toothbrush applicator/scrubber tends to > spray > > > bits of paint remover around nicely damaging the deck and cabin > paint > > > surface. > > > > > > 4. attack with a hacksaw. The first wires to cut would be > > > under quite a bit of tension. then the rig would be nice and > slack, > > > but OK if I have halyard backups. > > > > > > 5. just force the threads to turn with big tools. Nope. > > > > > > 6. cannot get a die in to clean the threads. > > > > > > 7. meticulously go at the threads with a very fine and > > > sharp metal tool to remove the paint bit by bit. Might be my > best bet, > > > if the most labour-intensive. > > > > > > Painting the screws was really dumb but I have done worse. If > this is > > > my biggest problem, life is alright. > > > > > > Season's greetings to all and I wait for your ideas and > suggestions. > > > > > > cheers, Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Comox,BC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 19203|19085|2009-01-01 20:06:16|adam|Re: Rode|Hi Brent! Do the "eyes" not reduce the strength of the cable by forcing a hard bend? Or are you attaching a small loop of cable to the main cable? Cheers! Adam > When I go south of Baja I use 7X19 stainless wire rope with an eye > every 50 feet. I put out enough for adequate scope, then loop a piece > of poly rope thru the nearest eye for shock absorber. Some people use > foats to keept he nylon off the bottom and to act as shock absorbers. > Bob Griffiths on Ahwanee swore by floating poly rope, but that was > before outboards becasme so common. I've used floats to kept the rode > off the coral and to act as shock absorbers. Take enough poly for > shorelines . The rich , who can afford nylon, are on the lookout for > bleach bottles to keep their rodes from sinking and cutting on the > cora, while the proletariat usually have enough poly for the job. > Brent > | 19204|19156|2009-01-01 21:52:19|James Pronk|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|I think that I would try a heat gun or a propane torch and wire brush first. Then I could put the old turnbuckles aside and have them for spares if I ever needed them for a temperary repair. If that didn't work I would move to a paint striper and if that didn't work I would cut them. Just my $.02 worth James Pronk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vic_lub" wrote: > > Use a bolt cutter with 4 foot handles and cut the turnbuckle, not > the wire... > Cheers > Vic > | 19205|19156|2009-01-01 23:26:27|silascrosby|Re: Paint in Turnbuckle Threads|Yah, that is kind of what I was thinking as well. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I think that I would try a heat gun or a propane torch and wire brush > first. Then I could put the old turnbuckles aside and have them for > spares if I ever needed them for a temperary repair. If that didn't > work I would move to a paint striper and if that didn't work I would > cut them. Just my $.02 worth > James Pronk > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vic_lub" wrote: > > > > Use a bolt cutter with 4 foot handles and cut the turnbuckle, not > > the wire... > > Cheers > > Vic > > > | 19206|19085|2009-01-02 16:15:28|brentswain38|Re: Rode|You have no choice but to have eyes in the ends of a cable anyway. Otherwise , how would you attach your anchor and rope? Properly done they have nearly the same strength as the cable. I wouldn't put them in the middle of the cable as they would be bent by the snubber and weaken from fatigue, quickly.I prefer to shacle 50 ft lengths together. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "adam" wrote: > > Hi Brent! > > Do the "eyes" not reduce the strength of the cable by forcing a hard > bend? Or are you attaching a small loop of cable to the main cable? > > Cheers! > Adam > > > When I go south of Baja I use 7X19 stainless wire rope with an eye > > every 50 feet. I put out enough for adequate scope, then loop a > piece > > of poly rope thru the nearest eye for shock absorber. Some people > use > > foats to keept he nylon off the bottom and to act as shock > absorbers. > > Bob Griffiths on Ahwanee swore by floating poly rope, but that was > > before outboards becasme so common. I've used floats to kept the > rode > > off the coral and to act as shock absorbers. Take enough poly for > > shorelines . The rich , who can afford nylon, are on the lookout for > > bleach bottles to keep their rodes from sinking and cutting on the > > cora, while the proletariat usually have enough poly for the job. > > Brent > > > | 19207|19085|2009-01-02 17:13:48|brentswain38|Re: Rode|I've only done several one year trips to Mexico and Tonga and ended up with meathooks in the SS cable . I suspect your galv may be lasting as long or longer. I plan to try galv next time. I have used copper nicopres , but had one wear thru from dragging on the bottom. I suspect you are having better luck with galv and liverpool splices , and plan to go that route next trip south. I'll leave cable on the surface to further the education of power boaters . They need the experience, or they will be setting anchored boats adrift while their owners are ashore. Thanks for the info. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > The eyes are a good idea. I have been using a rolling hitch (Prusik hitch) > with a loop of line to a nylon snubber which grips the larger cable good if > you do enough wraps. It would sometimes slip on ¼ inch cable but has never > slipped on 3/8 cable. I used to always buoy my cable around coral until a > guy hit the cable with his outboard. He was pretty upset but didn't have a > good answer for me when I asked him why he was passing so close and so fast > in an anchorage. I don't know why the local boats always use boats like > pylons in a race course. I don't buoy the cable now unless absolutely > needed. > > > > Brent, how long does the stainless cable last in the salt water? I have > only been getting about 2- 3 years with galv cable in the tropics despite > trying to keep it greased up. Are you using nicro-press fittings? When I > broke my ¼ inch cable, it was right at a nicro-press where it got kinked in > the coral. I now use a soft splice on the cable. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:53 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rode > > > > When I go south of Baja I use 7X19 stainless wire rope with an eye > every 50 feet. I put out enough for adequate scope, then loop a piece > of poly rope thru the nearest eye for shock absorber. Some people use > foats to keept he nylon off the bottom and to act as shock absorbers. > Bob Griffiths on Ahwanee swore by floating poly rope, but that was > before outboards becasme so common. I've used floats to kept the rode > off the coral and to act as shock absorbers. Take enough poly for > shorelines . The rich , who can afford nylon, are on the lookout for > bleach bottles to keep their rodes from sinking and cutting on the > cora, while the proletariat usually have enough poly for the job. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Gary, > > > > Are you planning on a pacific cruise? > > We are in the process of redoing our anchoring system after much > research. > > We now have a 20Kg bruce "knock-off" with 50' of 3/8" chain (both > > stainless) and 275' of 5/8" nylon 3 strand. > > All of that is for sale now. > > We are getting a 20Kg Manson Supreme with 100' of 5/16" G43 chain (both > > galvanized) and using the same nylon 3 strand. > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > I was reading this post on crusiers forum > > > > http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f23/s-pacific-anchorage-depths-and- > > > > > > > chain-length-21876.html > > > > > > Just wondering for the south seas what some of our "bin there" folk > > > used. > > > > > > Thanks > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19208|19186|2009-01-02 17:21:49|brentswain38|Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck????|I can't think of any pros. The cons are the boat looks ugly, is very cave like below decks regardless of how many skylights you have.I've yet to see an exception. Ports in the topsides are vulnerable when coming alongside and will be under water when beating to windward in strong winds ,and thus a liability if they break or leak. Standing on a flush deck when well heeled, while beating to windward, is like trying to straddle a whale , nothing but slippery deck between you and the leeward rail if you slip. They are far more dangerous in the likelihood of a "man overbard". Cabinsides give you something to get your feet against , and give a great sense of security when you are on a well heeled windward deck. When you increase the camber of a deck, as would be required to get adequate headroom in a flush decker , and the boat is well heeled, the leeward side is much closer to vertical, and drastical increases the risk of a man overboard. Raising the side decks 6 inches results in several hundred pounds reduction in righting moment. The deck has to be at the same height as the cabintop would be to get the same headroom in the 31 . In the 36 it would have to either be as high, or the floor would have to be dropped ,resulting in a huge reduction in tankage and floor space. The lack of a proper bulwark has just cost a friend his life, a couple of hundred feet from my boat, a few days ago. When nobody saw him for four days they dove under his boat and found him, with a big gash in his head. When the feet slip out from under you and there is no proper bulwark to stop you, you are going overboard , period. If you knock yourself out on the way, and there is nobody around ,it's game over. A toe rail is a pretty useless excuse for a bulwark, and altho it would slightly reduce the odds of going overboard , it is no substitiute for a four inch bulwark , especially given the deep snow and ice at the time. A flush deck is much harder to build than a trunk cabin and side decks . With side decks the panels are small and it is easy to keep the distortion out of them. With a flush deck, the areas are huge without the stiffness of cabinsides to keep things fair. They are also much heavier to lift in place. When you redesign a well proven boat, with so many having been built, and thus throw away the decades of experience thus gained, you add exponentially to the time and cost of having to reinvent things. We have all the patterns well sorted out for the boats we build. Change things in a major way and you start the learning proccess from scratch. You also lower the resale value, and make resale much harder than if one sticks to a well proven design. If it aint brioke, don't fix it. Cruisers' interest in flush decks comes from the fact that few have any experience cruising with adequate 2 ft wide side decks. Until they have experienced sailing with adequate side decks , flush decks seem the only solution to being able to get foreward in rough weateher without it being an obstacle course . My first boat had two foot side decks . Like all good things ,I came to take them for granted. On my next boat I made the incredibly foolish mistake of going for 18 inch side decks( Winabago priorities). They were great when tied to a dock . When heeled 25 degrees the lifelines were inside the deck - cabinside joint, and the only way to get foreward was to climb on the top of the cabin. This was extremely awkward, and dangerous , greatly increaseing the risk of a fall, and broken bones , especially as I had also made the foolish mistake of putting the handrails inboard from the top corner of the cabinside about six inches , leaving the natural place to put ones foot while going foreward, outside the handrail, greatly increasing the odds of a slip. I was embarassed to have made such foolish mistakes. The increased space in the cabin that motivated me ,was totally useless space that I could have, and have since, lived well without. You can get more visual space by putting up a few mirrors, without making your decks more dangerous. People have asked me to build narrow side decks . I have always refused. All have thanked me later when they had the experience of sailing on other boats in rough conditions with narrow side decks. They were extrememly grateful for their clear two foot side decks. I think flush decking smaller boats is a huge mistake. The cons outweigh the pros by a huge margin. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeagle999" wrote: > > Hi > > I was wondering about the flat deck, what are the pro's and con's ? > Weight, strength, windows, headroom, looks etc.... > > > > Thanks for your time, > j > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > wrote: > > > > Hello Alex > > your little ship looks great! It looks like you will have a lot of > > fun with her. After looking at the photos I was wondering about > > inside steering on that boat and you are working on that. > > Good luck and we are all looking forward to updates. > > Thank you, > > James Pronk. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > Hi group, have posted pix of my BS 30 twin keeler in the group's > > album > > > section under "Alex's BS30", for those interested to see this > > > interesting duck. She's a modified 31 type, flush-decked with a > > hard > > > dodger, and 9.9 hp high-thrust outboard in a well. I got her last > > fall > > > and plan to have her out and about soon where I can test out her > > > characteristics. > > > > > > In time I plan on adding a wind-vane for self-steering, as well as > > > retrofitting her with a proper pilot house, possibly of aluminum, > > > bolted onto a flange. Brent has some ideas about how this can > work, > > and > > > it should result in more light down below as well as an inside > > steering > > > position at last. As it is, the hard dodger isn't bad protection > > from > > > multiple angles of wind, but it will never have the armchair > > comfort of > > > a pilot house, nor the safety of a proper ship's hatch. > > > > > > Luckily the boat came with a very spiffing wind-generator, and the > > boat > > > should be pretty self-sufficient once a water-catchment system is > > > added. I'll add updates to the group when I have a chance to have > > some > > > more fun with the ship, over time! > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > | 19209|19153|2009-01-02 20:37:20|will jones|Re: Foam and Clean Up|A good naptha or mineral spirit wipe will make sure the wood is cleaned up prior to painting.  The furniture waxes really do not penetrate very well and the ammonia and water raise the grain.  Waxes with acrylics are quite hard to remove and any silicone based wax pretty much causes long term paint adhesion.  I've not had any problems with paste furniture wax though. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Wed, 12/31/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Foam and Clean Up To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 6:55 PM There could be enough left to stop paint from sticking in the future, especially if it soaks into wood.. Masking would be a better route to take. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "abellzey" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, will jones wrote: > > > > Just a few additional comments on this thread and poly foams. Best > way to remove it is to prevent it from sticking in the first place. > Once cured, there are no reasonable solvents to soften or dissolve > it. I typically use 3X coats of Johnson paste furniture wax. For > larger areas I look for a cheap car wax that does not have any > silicones or polymers added (harder to find these days). Stay away > from floor waxes, even for wood floors. Virtually all have acrylic > added, at least around me. You can easily remove these waxes with 1/4 > cup of ammonia in water. A couple of wipings and a wipe rinse will > pretty much take the wax off. Use a higher concentration depending on > your tolerance to ammonia. Don't forget the gloves, kinda hard on the > hands. > > > > Charge up some plastic with a nylon duster, repeat every so often > for easier foam shavings cleanup. > > > > As the thread clearly shows, anything serrated is pretty much the > best way to trim and shape. > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --- On Sat, 12/27/08, prairiemaidca wrote: > > > > From: prairiemaidca > > Subject: [origamiboats] Foam and Clean Up > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 9:38 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All: With Prairie Maid we were very lucky that we found a pro > > installer who had some smaller gear for working in tight spaces. All > > the others we talked to did buidings etc. with nozzels that put out > > foam like a fire hose. He could get the foam very nicely behind the > > mounting strips and into the tight spots. He also was extreamly good > > at not ending up with large amounts of excess all over. I purcharsed a > > serrated flexible bread knife and did the trimming with it. Given the > > surface area of a 36 it still takes a lot of work but from what I've > > heard we had very little trimming to do compared to most. Even with > > just the knife the static cling is very annoying. I personally would > > not put anything in the boat that you would not want that foam to stick > > on. It also might break something if it expands in behind it, not > > unlike water freezing in a closed in space. Martin.. > > > > I was wondering about building temporary forms to hold the foam. > Putting plenty of pressure relief holes in it that could also be used > for injecting at various places to ensure filling the form. If a good > bond breaker was used the form would come off easily and you could > foam one section at a time. > > I have only just finished putting my hull together, so I am a > little ahead of myself, but I enjoy thinking about and planning future > steps. > > Keep up all the boat building chatter. There are a lot of good > ideas out there. > > Al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19213|19213|2009-01-03 14:09:58|lachica31|Re Pradyumm Kapoor|Guys, Just ignore this twit. He post very infrequently and they are always rude and negative. I don't know why he is a member of this group at all. I think it is time that Alex banned him from this list. See below for his last 4 posts and you will see what I am getting at. Anyways, Happy New Year to everyone and hope you all achive your goals and objectives. For me, La Chica goes back to the water this year. Can't wait. Regards, Paul Thompson ------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Foam and Clean Up Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 23:03:58 +0530 (IST) From: Pradyumn kapoor Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com don't send me foolish messages -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boatdesign.net Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:06:59 +0530 (IST) From: Pradyumn kapoor Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com dont send me useless things and messagase -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Boatdesign.net Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:59:12 +0530 (IST) From: Pradyumn kapoor Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com dont send me useless messages -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: [SPAM][origamiboats] Searching for Happiness ? Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 06:53:31 +0100 (BST) From: Pradyumn kapoor Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com don't send me electures| 19214|19213|2009-01-04 01:12:54|Alex|Re: Re Pradyumm Kapoor|I've removed Pradyumm Kapoor from the group, that should tidy up the odd messages he posts. Weirdest thing. Oh well.| 19215|19215|2009-01-04 01:18:00|lachica31|Brents Wood Burning stove|I am building a stainless version of Brent's design (as per his book). I have a question with regards to the chimney. The book shows it as 4 inches in diameter I have some 6 inch spiral welded tube with a 1.5mm (about 1/16 inch) wall. Would it be safe to substitute for the 4 inch tube? Would this be better or worse? Lastly, What is the purpose of the fire brick lining that Brent has as an option. From these questions, you will gather that I know nothing about wood or coal burning stoves. So please educate me. Regards, Paul Thompson| 19216|19213|2009-01-04 09:51:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Re Pradyumm Kapoor|On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 06:12:52AM -0000, Alex wrote: > I've removed Pradyumm Kapoor from the group, that should tidy up the > odd messages he posts. Weirdest thing. Oh well. I recall that he tried to make sense once - something about "the price of gasoline him grow up so you must stock up now" - but it was too much effort, and he gave it up. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19217|19153|2009-01-04 11:53:26|will jones|Re: Foam and Clean Up|Now what is the burr in your posterior?  There is nothing silly about this. If you do not want answer don't post.  No need to flame someone.  As both a materials chemist and a woodworker I have employed common waxes as mold releases quite extensively.  I was mostly directing my original comment towards protecting steel, however works it quite well for wood.  While Brent raises a valid concern, vegetable waxes are readily removed wood with ammonia in water, solvent. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Pradyumn kapoor wrote: From: Pradyumn kapoor Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Foam and Clean Up To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 12:33 PM don't send me foolish messages --- On Sat, 3/1/09, will jones wrote: From: will jones Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Foam and Clean Up To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Saturday, 3 January, 2009, 7:07 AM A good naptha or mineral spirit wipe will make sure the wood is cleaned up prior to painting.  The furniture waxes really do not penetrate very well and the ammonia and water raise the grain.  Waxes with acrylics are quite hard to remove and any silicone based wax pretty much causes long term paint adhesion.  I've not had any problems with paste furniture wax though. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Wed, 12/31/08, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Foam and Clean Up To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 6:55 PM There could be enough left to stop paint from sticking in the future, especially if it soaks into wood.. Masking would be a better route to take. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "abellzey" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, will jones wrote: > > > > Just a few additional comments on this thread and poly foams. Best > way to remove it is to prevent it from sticking in the first place. > Once cured, there are no reasonable solvents to soften or dissolve > it. I typically use 3X coats of Johnson paste furniture wax. For > larger areas I look for a cheap car wax that does not have any > silicones or polymers added (harder to find these days). Stay away > from floor waxes, even for wood floors. Virtually all have acrylic > added, at least around me. You can easily remove these waxes with 1/4 > cup of ammonia in water. A couple of wipings and a wipe rinse will > pretty much take the wax off. Use a higher concentration depending on > your tolerance to ammonia. Don't forget the gloves, kinda hard on the > hands. > > > > Charge up some plastic with a nylon duster, repeat every so often > for easier foam shavings cleanup. > > > > As the thread clearly shows, anything serrated is pretty much the > best way to trim and shape. > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --- On Sat, 12/27/08, prairiemaidca wrote: > > > > From: prairiemaidca > > Subject: [origamiboats] Foam and Clean Up > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 9:38 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All: With Prairie Maid we were very lucky that we found a pro > > installer who had some smaller gear for working in tight spaces. All > > the others we talked to did buidings etc. with nozzels that put out > > foam like a fire hose. He could get the foam very nicely behind the > > mounting strips and into the tight spots. He also was extreamly good > > at not ending up with large amounts of excess all over. I purcharsed a > > serrated flexible bread knife and did the trimming with it. Given the > > surface area of a 36 it still takes a lot of work but from what I've > > heard we had very little trimming to do compared to most. Even with > > just the knife the static cling is very annoying. I personally would > > not put anything in the boat that you would not want that foam to stick > > on. It also might break something if it expands in behind it, not > > unlike water freezing in a closed in space. Martin.. > > > > I was wondering about building temporary forms to hold the foam. > Putting plenty of pressure relief holes in it that could also be used > for injecting at various places to ensure filling the form. If a good > bond breaker was used the form would come off easily and you could > foam one section at a time. > > I have only just finished putting my hull together, so I am a > little ahead of myself, but I enjoy thinking about and planning future > steps. > > Keep up all the boat building chatter. There are a lot of good > ideas out there. > > Al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger .yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19218|19215|2009-01-04 12:51:13|theboilerflue|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|I imagine the bricks have to do with adding volume to hold the heat rather than the heat just going into the air and quickly dissipating. Make sure you use fire bricks and not regular bricks ie. bricks that have been fired in a kiln and will not explode when heated to a high temp. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > I am building a stainless version of Brent's design (as per his book). > I have a question with regards to the chimney. The book shows it as 4 > inches in diameter I have some 6 inch spiral welded tube with a 1.5mm > (about 1/16 inch) wall. Would it be safe to substitute for the 4 inch > tube? Would this be better or worse? > > Lastly, What is the purpose of the fire brick lining that Brent has as > an option. From these questions, you will gather that I know nothing > about wood or coal burning stoves. So please educate me. > > Regards, Paul Thompson > | 19219|19186|2009-01-05 16:29:26|mauro gonzaga|Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck????|Sorry Alex, I do not understand why a 18 in wide side deck is so dangerous compared to the 24 in. To go forward the heeled boat, presumably you will step on the seam deck-cabin side, wheather side and you do not use the wide side deck you are talking about. I fully agree flush deck is dangerous at sea. Mauro --- On Fri, 1/2/09, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck???? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 11:21 PM I can't think of any pros. The cons are the boat looks ugly, is very cave like below decks regardless of how many skylights you have.I've yet to see an exception. Ports in the topsides are vulnerable when coming alongside and will be under water when beating to windward in strong winds ,and thus a liability if they break or leak. Standing on a flush deck when well heeled, while beating to windward, is like trying to straddle a whale , nothing but slippery deck between you and the leeward rail if you slip. They are far more dangerous in the likelihood of a "man overbard". Cabinsides give you something to get your feet against , and give a great sense of security when you are on a well heeled windward deck. When you increase the camber of a deck, as would be required to get adequate headroom in a flush decker , and the boat is well heeled, the leeward side is much closer to vertical, and drastical increases the risk of a man overboard. Raising the side decks 6 inches results in several hundred pounds reduction in righting moment. The deck has to be at the same height as the cabintop would be to get the same headroom in the 31 . In the 36 it would have to either be as high, or the floor would have to be dropped ,resulting in a huge reduction in tankage and floor space. The lack of a proper bulwark has just cost a friend his life, a couple of hundred feet from my boat, a few days ago. When nobody saw him for four days they dove under his boat and found him, with a big gash in his head. When the feet slip out from under you and there is no proper bulwark to stop you, you are going overboard , period. If you knock yourself out on the way, and there is nobody around ,it's game over. A toe rail is a pretty useless excuse for a bulwark, and altho it would slightly reduce the odds of going overboard , it is no substitiute for a four inch bulwark , especially given the deep snow and ice at the time. A flush deck is much harder to build than a trunk cabin and side decks . With side decks the panels are small and it is easy to keep the distortion out of them. With a flush deck, the areas are huge without the stiffness of cabinsides to keep things fair. They are also much heavier to lift in place. When you redesign a well proven boat, with so many having been built, and thus throw away the decades of experience thus gained, you add exponentially to the time and cost of having to reinvent things. We have all the patterns well sorted out for the boats we build. Change things in a major way and you start the learning proccess from scratch. You also lower the resale value, and make resale much harder than if one sticks to a well proven design. If it aint brioke, don't fix it. Cruisers' interest in flush decks comes from the fact that few have any experience cruising with adequate 2 ft wide side decks. Until they have experienced sailing with adequate side decks , flush decks seem the only solution to being able to get foreward in rough weateher without it being an obstacle course . My first boat had two foot side decks . Like all good things ,I came to take them for granted. On my next boat I made the incredibly foolish mistake of going for 18 inch side decks( Winabago priorities). They were great when tied to a dock . When heeled 25 degrees the lifelines were inside the deck - cabinside joint, and the only way to get foreward was to climb on the top of the cabin. This was extremely awkward, and dangerous , greatly increaseing the risk of a fall, and broken bones , especially as I had also made the foolish mistake of putting the handrails inboard from the top corner of the cabinside about six inches , leaving the natural place to put ones foot while going foreward, outside the handrail, greatly increasing the odds of a slip. I was embarassed to have made such foolish mistakes. The increased space in the cabin that motivated me ,was totally useless space that I could have, and have since, lived well without. You can get more visual space by putting up a few mirrors, without making your decks more dangerous. People have asked me to build narrow side decks . I have always refused. All have thanked me later when they had the experience of sailing on other boats in rough conditions with narrow side decks. They were extrememly grateful for their clear two foot side decks. I think flush decking smaller boats is a huge mistake. The cons outweigh the pros by a huge margin. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "jeagle999" wrote: > > Hi > > I was wondering about the flat deck, what are the pro's and con's ? > Weight, strength, windows, headroom, looks etc.... > > > > Thanks for your time, > j > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "James Pronk" > wrote: > > > > Hello Alex > > your little ship looks great! It looks like you will have a lot of > > fun with her. After looking at the photos I was wondering about > > inside steering on that boat and you are working on that. > > Good luck and we are all looking forward to updates. > > Thank you, > > James Pronk. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > Hi group, have posted pix of my BS 30 twin keeler in the group's > > album > > > section under "Alex's BS30", for those interested to see this > > > interesting duck. She's a modified 31 type, flush-decked with a > > hard > > > dodger, and 9.9 hp high-thrust outboard in a well. I got her last > > fall > > > and plan to have her out and about soon where I can test out her > > > characteristics. > > > > > > In time I plan on adding a wind-vane for self-steering, as well as > > > retrofitting her with a proper pilot house, possibly of aluminum, > > > bolted onto a flange. Brent has some ideas about how this can > work, > > and > > > it should result in more light down below as well as an inside > > steering > > > position at last. As it is, the hard dodger isn't bad protection > > from > > > multiple angles of wind, but it will never have the armchair > > comfort of > > > a pilot house, nor the safety of a proper ship's hatch. > > > > > > Luckily the boat came with a very spiffing wind-generator, and the > > boat > > > should be pretty self-sufficient once a water-catchment system is > > > added. I'll add updates to the group when I have a chance to have > > some > > > more fun with the ship, over time! > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19220|19215|2009-01-05 19:07:32|brentswain38|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|A friend switched to 6 inch ss tubing and loves it. His 4 inch had elbows in it which made it impossible to clean, so it was totally plugged. The six will eventually plug too, and be almost as hard to clean as the 4 inch.. I think he would have been better off to eliminate the elbows in the 4 inch and straighten it up. The six inch is definitely bulkier tho. The fire brick keeps the temperature much steadier for long term burning, but takes longer to heat up a cold cabin in a hurry. Some swear by it. It does reduce the firbox size , which is why I haven't got around to installing it yet. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > I am building a stainless version of Brent's design (as per his book). > I have a question with regards to the chimney. The book shows it as 4 > inches in diameter I have some 6 inch spiral welded tube with a 1.5mm > (about 1/16 inch) wall. Would it be safe to substitute for the 4 inch > tube? Would this be better or worse? > > Lastly, What is the purpose of the fire brick lining that Brent has as > an option. From these questions, you will gather that I know nothing > about wood or coal burning stoves. So please educate me. > > Regards, Paul Thompson > | 19221|19186|2009-01-05 19:12:19|brentswain38|Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck????|With two foot wide side decks , you can walk foreward on the side deck. With 18 inch side decks you have to walk on the cabin top to go foreward, an awkward way to go foreward, far less secure than walking on the side deck, and with a much greater chance of slipping and breaking bones. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Sorry Alex, I do not understand why a 18 in wide side deck is so dangerous compared to the 24 in. To go forward the heeled boat, presumably you will step on the seam deck-cabin side, wheather side and you do not use the wide side deck you are talking about. I fully agree flush deck is dangerous at sea. Mauro > > --- On Fri, 1/2/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck???? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 11:21 PM > > > > > > > I can't think of any pros. > The cons are the boat looks ugly, is very cave like below decks > regardless of how many skylights you have.I've yet to see an > exception. Ports in the topsides are vulnerable when coming alongside > and will be under water when beating to windward in strong winds ,and > thus a liability if they break or leak. > Standing on a flush deck when well heeled, while beating to > windward, is like trying to straddle a whale , nothing but slippery > deck between you and the leeward rail if you slip. They are far more > dangerous in the likelihood of a "man overbard". Cabinsides give you > something to get your feet against , and give a great sense of > security when you are on a well heeled windward deck. > When you increase the camber of a deck, as would be required to get > adequate headroom in a flush decker , and the boat is well heeled, the > leeward side is much closer to vertical, and drastical increases the > risk of a man overboard. > Raising the side decks 6 inches results in several hundred pounds > reduction in righting moment. The deck has to be at the same height > as the cabintop would be to get the same headroom in the 31 . In the > 36 it would have to either be as high, or the floor would have to be > dropped ,resulting in a huge reduction in tankage and floor space. > The lack of a proper bulwark has just cost a friend his life, a > couple of hundred feet from my boat, a few days ago. When nobody saw > him for four days they dove under his boat and found him, with a big > gash in his head. When the feet slip out from under you and there is > no proper bulwark to stop you, you are going overboard , period. If > you knock yourself out on the way, and there is nobody around ,it's > game over. A toe rail is a pretty useless excuse for a bulwark, and > altho it would slightly reduce the odds of going overboard , it is no > substitiute for a four inch bulwark , especially given the deep snow > and ice at the time. > A flush deck is much harder to build than a trunk cabin and side > decks . With side decks the panels are small and it is easy to keep > the distortion out of them. With a flush deck, the areas are huge > without the stiffness of cabinsides to keep things fair. They are > also much heavier to lift in place. > When you redesign a well proven boat, with so many having been built, > and thus throw away the decades of experience thus gained, you add > exponentially to the time and cost of having to reinvent things. We > have all the patterns well sorted out for the boats we build. Change > things in a major way and you start the learning proccess from > scratch. You also lower the resale value, and make resale much harder > than if one sticks to a well proven design. If it aint brioke, don't > fix it. > Cruisers' interest in flush decks comes from the fact that few have > any experience cruising with adequate 2 ft wide side decks. Until they > have experienced sailing with adequate side decks , flush decks seem > the only solution to being able to get foreward in rough weateher > without it being an obstacle course . > My first boat had two foot side decks . Like all good things ,I came > to take them for granted. On my next boat I made the incredibly > foolish mistake of going for 18 inch side decks( Winabago priorities). > They were great when tied to a dock . When heeled 25 degrees the > lifelines were inside the deck - cabinside joint, and the only way to > get foreward was to climb on the top of the cabin. This was extremely > awkward, and dangerous , greatly increaseing the risk of a fall, and > broken bones , especially as I had also made the foolish mistake of > putting the handrails inboard from the top corner of the cabinside > about six inches , leaving the natural place to put ones foot while > going foreward, outside the handrail, greatly increasing the odds of > a slip. I was embarassed to have made such foolish mistakes. The > increased space in the cabin that motivated me ,was totally useless > space that I could have, and have since, lived well without. You can > get more visual space by putting up a few mirrors, without making your > decks more dangerous. > People have asked me to build narrow side decks . I have always > refused. All have thanked me later when they had the experience of > sailing on other boats in rough conditions with narrow side decks. > They were extrememly grateful for their clear two foot side decks. > I think flush decking smaller boats is a huge mistake. The cons > outweigh the pros by a huge margin. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "jeagle999" wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > I was wondering about the flat deck, what are the pro's and con's ? > > Weight, strength, windows, headroom, looks etc.... > > > > > > > > Thanks for your time, > > j > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "James Pronk" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Alex > > > your little ship looks great! It looks like you will have a lot of > > > fun with her. After looking at the photos I was wondering about > > > inside steering on that boat and you are working on that. > > > Good luck and we are all looking forward to updates. > > > Thank you, > > > James Pronk. > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi group, have posted pix of my BS 30 twin keeler in the group's > > > album > > > > section under "Alex's BS30", for those interested to see this > > > > interesting duck. She's a modified 31 type, flush-decked with a > > > hard > > > > dodger, and 9.9 hp high-thrust outboard in a well. I got her last > > > fall > > > > and plan to have her out and about soon where I can test out her > > > > characteristics. > > > > > > > > In time I plan on adding a wind-vane for self-steering, as well as > > > > retrofitting her with a proper pilot house, possibly of aluminum, > > > > bolted onto a flange. Brent has some ideas about how this can > > work, > > > and > > > > it should result in more light down below as well as an inside > > > steering > > > > position at last. As it is, the hard dodger isn't bad protection > > > from > > > > multiple angles of wind, but it will never have the armchair > > > comfort of > > > > a pilot house, nor the safety of a proper ship's hatch. > > > > > > > > Luckily the boat came with a very spiffing wind-generator, and the > > > boat > > > > should be pretty self-sufficient once a water-catchment system is > > > > added. I'll add updates to the group when I have a chance to have > > > some > > > > more fun with the ship, over time! > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19222|19215|2009-01-05 19:17:48|brentswain38|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Firebricks also radiate heat long after the fire has gone out. My father said that his neighbours in Sakatchewan would buy the biggest airtight hippy killer stove they could find ,and pile bricks on and around it. Then on friday night, they would build a huge fire in it , and get the bricks really hot, then fill the stove and damp it down. Then they would go to town for the weekend , and at minus 40 degree temperatures they would come home sunday nite to find the house warm and cosy. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A friend switched to 6 inch ss tubing and loves it. His 4 inch had > elbows in it which made it impossible to clean, so it was totally > plugged. The six will eventually plug too, and be almost as hard to > clean as the 4 inch.. I think he would have been better off to > eliminate the elbows in the 4 inch and straighten it up. The six inch > is definitely bulkier tho. > The fire brick keeps the temperature much steadier for long term > burning, but takes longer to heat up a cold cabin in a hurry. Some > swear by it. It does reduce the firbox size , which is why I haven't > got around to installing it yet. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > I am building a stainless version of Brent's design (as per his book). > > I have a question with regards to the chimney. The book shows it as 4 > > inches in diameter I have some 6 inch spiral welded tube with a 1.5mm > > (about 1/16 inch) wall. Would it be safe to substitute for the 4 inch > > tube? Would this be better or worse? > > > > Lastly, What is the purpose of the fire brick lining that Brent has as > > an option. From these questions, you will gather that I know nothing > > about wood or coal burning stoves. So please educate me. > > > > Regards, Paul Thompson > > > | 19223|19223|2009-01-05 19:47:49|James Pronk|Ted's wing keels|Hello Ted How wide did you make the 1/2" base plate for your wing keels? How far up the side of the keel did you go to blend it back into the keel side? I will look in old posts to see if I can find it. Thank you, James Pronk.| 19224|19079|2009-01-06 02:33:59|Paul Wilson|Re: VW Jetta|Make sure you set the linkage properly on your Hurth. It is critical that the shift lever goes full travel or the clutch will slip a bit and burn up. Many people have problems with Hurths and it most often the setting of the shift lever that caused it to fail. The 250 series should be great. Some engines had a 100 series when they came out which was inadequate. I have the 150 series and it has been no trouble for 15 years on my Isuzu 35. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Pronk Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:13 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: VW Jetta Hello All I just came across this HURTH MARINE TRANSMISSION Gearbox HBW 250-2R. It has a gear ratio of 1.88:1. would this be a good mate to the 1.5 liter VW diesel? Thank you and Happy New Year to you all, James Pronk. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19225|19215|2009-01-06 06:54:29|Jonathan Stevens|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Fire bricks mean you can burn coal which would otherwise eat the steel. An insulated flue will keep the gasses hot so creosote doesn't condense. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19226|19215|2009-01-06 16:38:32|theboilerflue|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Ok curiosity has gotten the best of me, i'll bite. What makes a stove a "hippy killer" Brent? CO2 leaks? you got me --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Firebricks also radiate heat long after the fire has gone out. My > father said that his neighbours in Sakatchewan would buy the biggest > airtight hippy killer stove they could find ,and pile bricks on and > around it. Then on friday night, they would build a huge fire in it , > and get the bricks really hot, then fill the stove and damp it down. > Then they would go to town for the weekend , and at minus 40 degree > temperatures they would come home sunday nite to find the house warm > and cosy. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > A friend switched to 6 inch ss tubing and loves it. His 4 inch had > > elbows in it which made it impossible to clean, so it was totally > > plugged. The six will eventually plug too, and be almost as hard to > > clean as the 4 inch.. I think he would have been better off to > > eliminate the elbows in the 4 inch and straighten it up. The six inch > > is definitely bulkier tho. > > The fire brick keeps the temperature much steadier for long term > > burning, but takes longer to heat up a cold cabin in a hurry. Some > > swear by it. It does reduce the firbox size , which is why I haven't > > got around to installing it yet. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > > > I am building a stainless version of Brent's design (as per his book). > > > I have a question with regards to the chimney. The book shows it as 4 > > > inches in diameter I have some 6 inch spiral welded tube with a 1.5mm > > > (about 1/16 inch) wall. Would it be safe to substitute for the 4 inch > > > tube? Would this be better or worse? > > > > > > Lastly, What is the purpose of the fire brick lining that Brent has as > > > an option. From these questions, you will gather that I know nothing > > > about wood or coal burning stoves. So please educate me. > > > > > > Regards, Paul Thompson > > > > > > | 19228|19215|2009-01-07 14:59:32|Alex|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|I think what Brent refers to are the substandard woodstoves that people have cobbled together over the years up and down this coast which have cost many people their lives. Without a lining, then thin walled steel of a stove made from an old oil or fuel drum on it's side eventually burns through and burns down the house while you sleep. No control over the flue, and no air intake controls may have likely contributed to their danger, especially when a banked fire (many logs put on to keep the fire going overnight) "runs away" and the fire gets out of control. A friend told me the horrific story of a hippy couple on one of the gulf islands who stupidly banked more wood in their drum stove in their cabin, then went out to a party leaving their baby asleep inside. When they returned, the horrified couple found the cabin was completely aflame, the baby died in the fire. The wood they had banked had "taken off" and the stove must have created a roaring inferno inside itself before either burning through it's sides or creating so much heat that it ignited nearby combustible materials and burning down the cabin. The hippy movement brought many people out of urban environments into the country, in pursuit of an ideal to go "back to the land". While their ideals were lofty, they lacked backwoods smarts, and to top it off, they often rejected advice from locals who had actual pioneer backgrounds (ie people who put firebrick in their stoves). Thus this type of fire tragedy was repeated with enough regularity to result in such an unfortunate appellation for the home-made drum stove, "the hippy killer". One more anecdote about hippies... The husband of a friend of mine fancied himself a back-to-the-lander type in the manner of his Afrikaner forebears, and asked my advice about getting a boat to live on with my friend and her teenage daughter plus the couple's new baby. I said, "above all don't get an uninsulated fibreglass boat, look for an insulated steel Swain at least 36 feet long, with good heat. Your wife will thank you." There was a Swain on the market at that time, actually, and they could have afforded it, but he rejected my advice and went out and bought a 29 foot uninsulated fibreglass boat with no heat and pinched ends (meaning the liveable envelope was even smaller than 29 feet). They froze in winter and melted in summer. ..My friend is single again now, lives ashore, and her ex husband's boat quietly moulders, swinging empty at its mooring up in Comox harbour. Depressing but cautionary tale huh :p Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Ok curiosity has gotten the best of me, i'll bite. What makes a stove > a "hippy killer" Brent? CO2 leaks? you got me > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Firebricks also radiate heat long after the fire has gone out. My > > father said that his neighbours in Sakatchewan would buy the biggest > > airtight hippy killer stove they could find ,and pile bricks on and > > around it. Then on friday night, they would build a huge fire in it , > > and get the bricks really hot, then fill the stove and damp it down. > > Then they would go to town for the weekend , and at minus 40 degree > > temperatures they would come home sunday nite to find the house warm > > and cosy. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > A friend switched to 6 inch ss tubing and loves it. His 4 inch had > > > elbows in it which made it impossible to clean, so it was totally > > > plugged. The six will eventually plug too, and be almost as hard to > > > clean as the 4 inch.. I think he would have been better off to > > > eliminate the elbows in the 4 inch and straighten it up. The six inch > > > is definitely bulkier tho. > > > The fire brick keeps the temperature much steadier for long term > > > burning, but takes longer to heat up a cold cabin in a hurry. Some > > > swear by it. It does reduce the firbox size , which is why I haven't > > > got around to installing it yet. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > > > > > I am building a stainless version of Brent's design (as per his > book). > > > > I have a question with regards to the chimney. The book shows it > as 4 > > > > inches in diameter I have some 6 inch spiral welded tube with a > 1.5mm > > > > (about 1/16 inch) wall. Would it be safe to substitute for the 4 > inch > > > > tube? Would this be better or worse? > > > > > > > > Lastly, What is the purpose of the fire brick lining that Brent > has as > > > > an option. From these questions, you will gather that I know nothing > > > > about wood or coal burning stoves. So please educate me. > > > > > > > > Regards, Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > > | 19229|19215|2009-01-07 15:28:26|Carl Anderson|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Damn good advise Alex! We got our heater running during our trip last week and nothing like an insulated boat to keep that heat inside! Carl Alex wrote: > > I said, "above all don't get an uninsulated fibreglass boat, look for > an insulated steel Swain at least 36 feet long, with good heat. Your > wife will thank you." | 19230|19215|2009-01-07 16:12:23|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|My take is a lot of the Hippy types as showen in your telling read Mother Earth News that tells them all kinds of ways to prove Darwin right and creative was to kill the earth as it where. Some day they will get sued for bad advice by a surviver. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > I think what Brent refers to are the substandard woodstoves that > people have cobbled together over the years up and down this coast > which have cost many people their lives. Without a lining, then thin > walled steel of a stove made from an old oil or fuel drum on it's side > eventually burns through and burns down the house while you sleep. No > control over the flue, and no air intake controls may have likely > contributed to their danger, especially when a banked fire (many logs > put on to keep the fire going overnight) "runs away" and the fire gets > out of control. > > A friend told me the horrific story of a hippy couple on one of the > gulf islands who stupidly banked more wood in their drum stove in > their cabin, then went out to a party leaving their baby asleep > inside. When they returned, the horrified couple found the cabin was > completely aflame, the baby died in the fire. The wood they had banked > had "taken off" and the stove must have created a roaring inferno > inside itself before either burning through it's sides or creating so > much heat that it ignited nearby combustible materials and burning > down the cabin. > > The hippy movement brought many people out of urban environments into > the country, in pursuit of an ideal to go "back to the land". While > their ideals were lofty, they lacked backwoods smarts, and to top it > off, they often rejected advice from locals who had actual pioneer > backgrounds (ie people who put firebrick in their stoves). Thus this > type of fire tragedy was repeated with enough regularity to result in > such an unfortunate appellation for the home-made drum stove, "the > hippy killer". > > One more anecdote about hippies... The husband of a friend of mine > fancied himself a back-to-the-lander type in the manner of his > Afrikaner forebears, and asked my advice about getting a boat to live > on with my friend and her teenage daughter plus the couple's new baby. > I said, "above all don't get an uninsulated fibreglass boat, look for > an insulated steel Swain at least 36 feet long, with good heat. Your > wife will thank you." There was a Swain on the market at that time, > actually, and they could have afforded it, but he rejected my advice > and went out and bought a 29 foot uninsulated fibreglass boat with no > heat and pinched ends (meaning the liveable envelope was even smaller > than 29 feet). They froze in winter and melted in summer. ..My friend > is single again now, lives ashore, and her ex husband's boat quietly > moulders, swinging empty at its mooring up in Comox harbour. > > Depressing but cautionary tale huh :p > > > Alex | 19231|19215|2009-01-07 19:52:21|brentswain38|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|You need a grating for coal burning , or the fire goes out. Tried that. Wood burns best in it's own ashes, coal only keeps burning when on a grate, to keep it clear of ashes. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Fire bricks mean you can burn coal which would otherwise eat the steel. An > insulated flue will keep the gasses hot so creosote doesn't condense. > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19232|19215|2009-01-07 19:54:01|brentswain38|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Hippy Killer is the nickname for those thin, sheet metal airtight stoves you can buy cheaply at many hardware stores. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Ok curiosity has gotten the best of me, i'll bite. What makes a stove > a "hippy killer" Brent? CO2 leaks? you got me > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Firebricks also radiate heat long after the fire has gone out. My > > father said that his neighbours in Sakatchewan would buy the biggest > > airtight hippy killer stove they could find ,and pile bricks on and > > around it. Then on friday night, they would build a huge fire in it , > > and get the bricks really hot, then fill the stove and damp it down. > > Then they would go to town for the weekend , and at minus 40 degree > > temperatures they would come home sunday nite to find the house warm > > and cosy. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > A friend switched to 6 inch ss tubing and loves it. His 4 inch had > > > elbows in it which made it impossible to clean, so it was totally > > > plugged. The six will eventually plug too, and be almost as hard to > > > clean as the 4 inch.. I think he would have been better off to > > > eliminate the elbows in the 4 inch and straighten it up. The six inch > > > is definitely bulkier tho. > > > The fire brick keeps the temperature much steadier for long term > > > burning, but takes longer to heat up a cold cabin in a hurry. Some > > > swear by it. It does reduce the firbox size , which is why I haven't > > > got around to installing it yet. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > > > > > I am building a stainless version of Brent's design (as per his > book). > > > > I have a question with regards to the chimney. The book shows it > as 4 > > > > inches in diameter I have some 6 inch spiral welded tube with a > 1.5mm > > > > (about 1/16 inch) wall. Would it be safe to substitute for the 4 > inch > > > > tube? Would this be better or worse? > > > > > > > > Lastly, What is the purpose of the fire brick lining that Brent > has as > > > > an option. From these questions, you will gather that I know nothing > > > > about wood or coal burning stoves. So please educate me. > > > > > > > > Regards, Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > > | 19233|19186|2009-01-07 19:56:32|brentswain38|Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck????|When I stand on my 2 ft wide side decks the lifelines are hip high, when I stand on the cabin they are less than knee high, and far easier to get launched over by a freak wave or unexpected lurch. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Sorry Alex, I do not understand why a 18 in wide side deck is so dangerous compared to the 24 in. To go forward the heeled boat, presumably you will step on the seam deck-cabin side, wheather side and you do not use the wide side deck you are talking about. I fully agree�flush deck is dangerous at sea. Mauro > > --- On Fri, 1/2/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck???? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 11:21 PM > > > > > > > I can't think of any pros. > The cons are the boat looks ugly, is very cave like below decks > regardless of how many skylights you have.I've yet to see an > exception. Ports in the topsides are vulnerable when coming alongside > and will be under water when beating to windward in strong winds ,and > thus a liability if they break or leak. > Standing on a flush deck when well heeled, while beating to > windward, is like trying to straddle a whale , nothing but slippery > deck between you and the leeward rail if you slip. They are far more > dangerous in the likelihood of a "man overbard". Cabinsides give you > something to get your feet against , and give a great sense of > security when you are on a well heeled windward deck. > When you increase the camber of a deck, as would be required to get > adequate headroom in a flush decker , and the boat is well heeled, the > leeward side is much closer to vertical, and drastical increases the > risk of a man overboard. > Raising the side decks 6 inches results in several hundred pounds > reduction in righting moment. The deck has to be at the same height > as the cabintop would be to get the same headroom in the 31 . In the > 36 it would have to either be as high, or the floor would have to be > dropped ,resulting in a huge reduction in tankage and floor space. > The lack of a proper bulwark has just cost a friend his life, a > couple of hundred feet from my boat, a few days ago. When nobody saw > him for four days they dove under his boat and found him, with a big > gash in his head. When the feet slip out from under you and there is > no proper bulwark to stop you, you are going overboard , period. If > you knock yourself out on the way, and there is nobody around ,it's > game over. A toe rail is a pretty useless excuse for a bulwark, and > altho it would slightly reduce the odds of going overboard , it is no > substitiute for a four inch bulwark , especially given the deep snow > and ice at the time. > A flush deck is much harder to build than a trunk cabin and side > decks . With side decks the panels are small and it is easy to keep > the distortion out of them. With a flush deck, the areas are huge > without the stiffness of cabinsides to keep things fair. They are > also much heavier to lift in place. > When you redesign a well proven boat, with so many having been built, > and thus throw away the decades of experience thus gained, you add > exponentially to the time and cost of having to reinvent things. We > have all the patterns well sorted out for the boats we build. Change > things in a major way and you start the learning proccess from > scratch. You also lower the resale value, and make resale much harder > than if one sticks to a well proven design. If it aint brioke, don't > fix it. > Cruisers' interest in flush decks comes from the fact that few have > any experience cruising with adequate 2 ft wide side decks. Until they > have experienced sailing with adequate side decks , flush decks seem > the only solution to being able to get foreward in rough weateher > without it being an obstacle course . > My first boat had two foot side decks . Like all good things ,I came > to take them for granted. On my next boat I made the incredibly > foolish mistake of going for 18 inch side decks( Winabago priorities). > They were great when tied to a dock . When heeled 25 degrees the > lifelines were inside the deck - cabinside joint, and the only way to > get foreward was to climb on the top of the cabin. This was extremely > awkward, and dangerous , greatly increaseing the risk of a fall, and > broken bones , especially as I had also made the foolish mistake of > putting the handrails inboard from the top corner of the cabinside > about six inches , leaving the natural place to put ones foot while > going foreward, outside the handrail, greatly increasing the odds of > a slip. I was embarassed to have made such foolish mistakes. The > increased space in the cabin that motivated me ,was totally useless > space that I could have, and have since, lived well without. You can > get more visual space by putting up a few mirrors, without making your > decks more dangerous. > People have asked me to build narrow side decks . I have always > refused. All have thanked me later when they had the experience of > sailing on other boats in rough conditions with narrow side decks. > They were extrememly grateful for their clear two foot side decks. > I think flush decking smaller boats is a huge mistake. The cons > outweigh the pros by a huge margin. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "jeagle999" wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > I was wondering about the flat deck, what are the pro's and con's ? > > Weight, strength, windows, headroom, looks etc.... > > > > > > > > Thanks for your time, > > j > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "James Pronk" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Alex > > > your little ship looks great! It looks like you will have a lot of > > > fun with her. After looking at the photos I was wondering about > > > inside steering on that boat and you are working on that. > > > Good luck and we are all looking forward to updates. > > > Thank you, > > > James Pronk. > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi group, have posted pix of my BS 30 twin keeler in the group's > > > album > > > > section under "Alex's BS30", for those interested to see this > > > > interesting duck. She's a modified 31 type, flush-decked with a > > > hard > > > > dodger, and 9.9 hp high-thrust outboard in a well. I got her last > > > fall > > > > and plan to have her out and about soon where I can test out her > > > > characteristics. > > > > > > > > In time I plan on adding a wind-vane for self-steering, as well as > > > > retrofitting her with a proper pilot house, possibly of aluminum, > > > > bolted onto a flange. Brent has some ideas about how this can > > work, > > > and > > > > it should result in more light down below as well as an inside > > > steering > > > > position at last. As it is, the hard dodger isn't bad protection > > > from > > > > multiple angles of wind, but it will never have the armchair > > > comfort of > > > > a pilot house, nor the safety of a proper ship's hatch. > > > > > > > > Luckily the boat came with a very spiffing wind-generator, and the > > > boat > > > > should be pretty self-sufficient once a water-catchment system is > > > > added. I'll add updates to the group when I have a chance to have > > > some > > > > more fun with the ship, over time! > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19234|19215|2009-01-07 19:58:22|brentswain38|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Oil burning does a far more thorough job of killing the earth. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > My take is a lot of the Hippy types as showen in your telling read > Mother Earth News that tells them all kinds of ways to prove Darwin > right and creative was to kill the earth as it where. Some day they > will get sued for bad advice by a surviver. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > I think what Brent refers to are the substandard woodstoves that > > people have cobbled together over the years up and down this coast > > which have cost many people their lives. Without a lining, then > thin > > walled steel of a stove made from an old oil or fuel drum on it's > side > > eventually burns through and burns down the house while you sleep. > No > > control over the flue, and no air intake controls may have likely > > contributed to their danger, especially when a banked fire (many > logs > > put on to keep the fire going overnight) "runs away" and the fire > gets > > out of control. > > > > A friend told me the horrific story of a hippy couple on one of the > > gulf islands who stupidly banked more wood in their drum stove in > > their cabin, then went out to a party leaving their baby asleep > > inside. When they returned, the horrified couple found the cabin > was > > completely aflame, the baby died in the fire. The wood they had > banked > > had "taken off" and the stove must have created a roaring inferno > > inside itself before either burning through it's sides or creating > so > > much heat that it ignited nearby combustible materials and burning > > down the cabin. > > > > The hippy movement brought many people out of urban environments > into > > the country, in pursuit of an ideal to go "back to the land". While > > their ideals were lofty, they lacked backwoods smarts, and to top it > > off, they often rejected advice from locals who had actual pioneer > > backgrounds (ie people who put firebrick in their stoves). Thus this > > type of fire tragedy was repeated with enough regularity to result > in > > such an unfortunate appellation for the home-made drum stove, "the > > hippy killer". > > > > One more anecdote about hippies... The husband of a friend of mine > > fancied himself a back-to-the-lander type in the manner of his > > Afrikaner forebears, and asked my advice about getting a boat to > live > > on with my friend and her teenage daughter plus the couple's new > baby. > > I said, "above all don't get an uninsulated fibreglass boat, look > for > > an insulated steel Swain at least 36 feet long, with good heat. Your > > wife will thank you." There was a Swain on the market at that time, > > actually, and they could have afforded it, but he rejected my advice > > and went out and bought a 29 foot uninsulated fibreglass boat with > no > > heat and pinched ends (meaning the liveable envelope was even > smaller > > than 29 feet). They froze in winter and melted in summer. ..My > friend > > is single again now, lives ashore, and her ex husband's boat quietly > > moulders, swinging empty at its mooring up in Comox harbour. > > > > Depressing but cautionary tale huh :p > > > > > > Alex > | 19235|19215|2009-01-07 22:01:44|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|True but in North America 63% of the oul in the enviroment is from natural seepage. 33% from users through spills and unburnt fuel discharge or dumping of motor oil Only 4% from production and transport. In some areas enviromental groups are calling for drilling and extract to reduse seepage. In the Gulf Of Mexico more seeps out of the ocean floor then was spilled by the Exxon Vadeze. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Oil burning does a far more thorough job of killing the earth. > Brent | 19236|19215|2009-01-08 09:45:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 03:01:42AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > True but in North America 63% of the oul in the enviroment is from > natural seepage. 33% from users through spills and unburnt fuel > discharge or dumping of motor oil Only 4% from production and > transport. Good reasoning there, Jon. "I found a mouse turd in your yard; that means that it's OK for me to take a shit in your kitchen!" Jon, I keep wondering about this. Why is it that you feel that you have to defend oil companies? Does the fact that they're poisoning our air, water, and land (and you can argue about degrees and percentages, but you can't get around that basic fact) while ripping us off (highest profits in history during these war years - that used to be called "profiteering", and carried jail sentences) somehow make them wonderful and holy? Or are you perhaps in the oil business yourself? > In some areas enviromental groups are calling for drilling > and extract to reduse seepage. That sounds like it came from reading too many Exxon advertisements. What "environmental groups" are these? Ones created and sponsored by the oil industry for the purpose of calling for more drilling? No drilling is necessary to recover seepage. Containment plants, like the ones at Coal Point in California, work just fine. > In the Gulf Of Mexico more seeps out of > the ocean floor then was spilled by the Exxon Vadeze. [sigh] Most of what comes out of an oil seep is bitumen. A thick solid sludge that mostly (except for some tiny portion) stays on the bottom, where it comes out. By contrast, the entire cargo of the Valdez floated on top of the water. Further, the Gulf's ecosystems have been dealing with that seepage for millions of years, and are adapted to it; Prince William Sound had no such adaptation. If you take an Alaskan and expose him to the sun in the Saudi Arabian desert, you can't claim that you "didn't know" about the damage you'd cause "because Arabs don't have a problem with it." -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19237|19237|2009-01-08 11:31:14|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Brent's wood burning stove|Hi Brent et All, Happy New year! I'm planning on heating water by running a couple of heating tubes through the fire box of an airtight stove to a water tank, connecting the top of the tube to the top of the water heater, the bottom end to the bottom of the water tank. Convection will move the heated water. I've heard this is the way it was done in the old days. The air tight is of course mild carbon steel. But what to use for the heating tubes in the fire box? Copper may be easiest to fabricate with an externally threaded tube through the wall of the firebox with a flanged fitting on each side (or just a washer held in place with a nut onto the threaded tube) and pressure fittings, either flare or "olive" type. This way would need to have pressure fittings both inside and outside the firebox. Going with copper like this I would think that a steel plate inside the firebox would be needed to protect the copper tube or it will be dammaged the first time a log gets tossed in without extreme care. Also of concern (maybe) is the expansion rates of the copper as opposed to the steel of the wood stove? Or a SS tube welded in place with pressure fittings only on the outside of the firebox Or black iron tube welded in place through the wall of the firebox and threaded fittings inside the firebox to fabricate the "u" shape from bottom of the loop (in the firebox) to the top. Or is there an easier way of doing it? Mostly I'm concerned with the safety and the durability of the tubing inside the fire box This system will not be pressurized. but rather will use it for a> a heat sink to keep things warm like the bricks your family used on the wood stove, on a smaller scale b> to connect a heat exchanger to to run the domestic hot water supply through (planning on putting the heat exchanger on the top line from fire box to water tank to eliminate the need for a pump c> will also take a line from the hot water tank & run it to a couple of heat exchangers/radiators throughout the house. will also need a simple system to keep the water level right up in the hot water tank & plan on just using a sealed container (read SS beer keg) with a hard line down to the hot water tank (again, this is a non pressureized system so the hot H2o tank will be vented & there will be evaporation). Am planning on setting this up like a watering system for a hamster or a bird cage. I'm thinking that a low tech system like this might work really well on a boat for hot water for showering and perhaps a coil of pex/whatever under the "V" berth forward (or whatever) to spread the heat more evenly throughout the boat. For my system I will also be using thermostat's out of old electric hot water heaters to run 12V pumps that will take 40-140oC (now on sale at Princess Auto) to curculate the water for remote heat exchangers/radiators. Your comments much apprecaited! Shane __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 19238|19237|2009-01-08 12:23:44|Jack Gardiner|Re: Brent's wood burning stove|SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hi Brent et All, > > Happy New year! > > I'm planning on heating water by running a couple of heating tubes > through the fire box of an airtight stove to a water tank, connecting > the top of the tube to the top of the water heater, the bottom end to > the bottom of the water tank. Convection will move the heated water. > > I've heard this is the way it was done in the old days. > > The air tight is of course mild carbon steel. > > But what to use for the heating tubes in the fire box? > > Copper may be easiest to fabricate with an externally threaded tube > through the wall of the firebox with a flanged fitting on each side > (or just a washer held in place with a nut onto the threaded tube) and > pressure fittings, either flare or "olive" type. This way would need > to have pressure fittings both inside and outside the firebox. > Going with copper like this I would think that a steel plate inside > the firebox would be needed to protect the copper tube or it will be > dammaged the first time a log gets tossed in without extreme care. > Also of concern (maybe) is the expansion rates of the copper as > opposed to the steel of the wood stove? > > Or a SS tube welded in place with pressure fittings only on the > outside of the firebox > > Or black iron tube welded in place through the wall of the firebox and > threaded fittings inside the firebox to fabricate the "u" shape from > bottom of the loop (in the firebox) to the top. > > Or is there an easier way of doing it? > > Mostly I'm concerned with the safety and the durability of the tubing > inside the fire box > > This system will not be pressurized. but rather will use it for > a> a heat sink to keep things warm like the bricks your family used on > the wood stove, on a smaller scale > b> to connect a heat exchanger to to run the domestic hot water supply > through (planning on putting the heat exchanger on the top line from > fire box to water tank to eliminate the need for a pump > c> will also take a line from the hot water tank & run it to a couple > of heat exchangers/radiators throughout the house. > > will also need a simple system to keep the water level right up in the > hot water tank & plan on just using a sealed container (read SS beer > keg) with a hard line down to the hot water tank (again, this is a non > pressureized system so the hot H2o tank will be vented & there will be > evaporation). Am planning on setting this up like a watering system > for a hamster or a bird cage. > > I'm thinking that a low tech system like this might work really well > on a boat for hot water for showering and perhaps a coil of > pex/whatever under the "V" berth forward (or whatever) to spread the > heat more evenly throughout the boat. > > For my system I will also be using thermostat's out of old electric > hot water heaters to run 12V pumps that will take 40-140oC (now on > sale at Princess Auto) to curculate the water for remote heat > exchangers/radiators. > > Your comments much apprecaited! > > Shane > > __________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > http://www.therma-coil.com/ I bought 2 of these, they give you the hole saw, the press relief valve, very easy. of course if your building your own steel boat, you could fabricate this very easily. Jack| 19239|19239|2009-01-08 12:24:37|Aaron Williams|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove ?|Ben This has nothing to do with Brents wood stove, does it? Aaron --- On Thu, 1/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 5:42 AM On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 03:01:42AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > True but in North America 63% of the oul in the enviroment is from > natural seepage. 33% from users through spills and unburnt fuel > discharge or dumping of motor oil Only 4% from production and > transport. Good reasoning there, Jon. "I found a mouse turd in your yard; that means that it's OK for me to take a shit in your kitchen!" Jon, I keep wondering about this. Why is it that you feel that you have to defend oil companies? Does the fact that they're poisoning our air, water, and land (and you can argue about degrees and percentages, but you can't get around that basic fact) while ripping us off (highest profits in history during these war years - that used to be called "profiteering" , and carried jail sentences) somehow make them wonderful and holy? Or are you perhaps in the oil business yourself? > In some areas enviromental groups are calling for drilling > and extract to reduse seepage. That sounds like it came from reading too many Exxon advertisements. What "environmental groups" are these? Ones created and sponsored by the oil industry for the purpose of calling for more drilling? No drilling is necessary to recover seepage. Containment plants, like the ones at Coal Point in California, work just fine. > In the Gulf Of Mexico more seeps out of > the ocean floor then was spilled by the Exxon Vadeze. [sigh] Most of what comes out of an oil seep is bitumen. A thick solid sludge that mostly (except for some tiny portion) stays on the bottom, where it comes out. By contrast, the entire cargo of the Valdez floated on top of the water. Further, the Gulf's ecosystems have been dealing with that seepage for millions of years, and are adapted to it; Prince William Sound had no such adaptation. If you take an Alaskan and expose him to the sun in the Saudi Arabian desert, you can't claim that you "didn't know" about the damage you'd cause "because Arabs don't have a problem with it." -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19240|19237|2009-01-08 12:43:52|Paul Wilson|Re: Brent's wood burning stove|Shane, It should work but how about instead of using a tube, make a double wall on the fire box, say an inch thick filled with water. If you make it enough volume you could make it your water tank and get rid of the external tank made from the beer keg (or keep it for beer). If you are relying on water to transfer heat, you don't need to radiate the heat out of the firebox to the living space. I lived on a boat once that had a similar water heated system. It was expensive and complicated but really fantastic. When it was minus 10 or 15, the boat was toasty throughout. The system had a bulb on the tank that controlled the diesel fuel to the carburetor. It saved a lot of diesel fuel since it only poured the fuel in when you needed it. It also had an electric water pump as you describe that turned on once the water was hot, and shut off when the water was cold. It had an overpressure valve and was pressurized by the water system on the boat so I could use it for a hot shower. It was made by the original founders of Force 10 in the early 80s or late 70s and beautifully constructed. I was told it was the best thing Force 10 ever did but they only sold a few due to the cost. I am sure you could do it more simply but I am thinking you will still need a water pump unless the radiators are higher than the tank. You could keep it open vented, but I like the idea of the hot showers with the pressure system. Good luck. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SHANE ROTHWELL Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 5:31 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's wood burning stove Hi Brent et All, Happy New year! I'm planning on heating water by running a couple of heating tubes through the fire box of an airtight stove to a water tank, connecting the top of the tube to the top of the water heater, the bottom end to the bottom of the water tank. Convection will move the heated water. I've heard this is the way it was done in the old days. The air tight is of course mild carbon steel. But what to use for the heating tubes in the fire box? Copper may be easiest to fabricate with an externally threaded tube through the wall of the firebox with a flanged fitting on each side (or just a washer held in place with a nut onto the threaded tube) and pressure fittings, either flare or "olive" type. This way would need to have pressure fittings both inside and outside the firebox. Going with copper like this I would think that a steel plate inside the firebox would be needed to protect the copper tube or it will be dammaged the first time a log gets tossed in without extreme care. Also of concern (maybe) is the expansion rates of the copper as opposed to the steel of the wood stove? Or a SS tube welded in place with pressure fittings only on the outside of the firebox Or black iron tube welded in place through the wall of the firebox and threaded fittings inside the firebox to fabricate the "u" shape from bottom of the loop (in the firebox) to the top. Or is there an easier way of doing it? Mostly I'm concerned with the safety and the durability of the tubing inside the fire box This system will not be pressurized. but rather will use it for a> a heat sink to keep things warm like the bricks your family used on the wood stove, on a smaller scale b> to connect a heat exchanger to to run the domestic hot water supply through (planning on putting the heat exchanger on the top line from fire box to water tank to eliminate the need for a pump c> will also take a line from the hot water tank & run it to a couple of heat exchangers/radiators throughout the house. will also need a simple system to keep the water level right up in the hot water tank & plan on just using a sealed container (read SS beer keg) with a hard line down to the hot water tank (again, this is a non pressureized system so the hot H2o tank will be vented & there will be evaporation). Am planning on setting this up like a watering system for a hamster or a bird cage. I'm thinking that a low tech system like this might work really well on a boat for hot water for showering and perhaps a coil of pex/whatever under the "V" berth forward (or whatever) to spread the heat more evenly throughout the boat. For my system I will also be using thermostat's out of old electric hot water heaters to run 12V pumps that will take 40-140oC (now on sale at Princess Auto) to curculate the water for remote heat exchangers/radiators. Your comments much apprecaited! Shane __________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19241|19215|2009-01-08 13:28:38|lachica31|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > True but in North America 63% of the oul in the enviroment is from > natural seepage. 33% from users through spills and unburnt fuel > discharge or dumping of motor oil Only 4% from production and > transport. In some areas enviromental groups are calling for drilling > and extract to reduse seepage. In the Gulf Of Mexico more seeps out of > the ocean floor then was spilled by the Exxon Vadeze. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Oil burning does a far more thorough job of killing the earth. > > Brent > Jon, I take it that you did not vote for Obama :-) Do you work for the oil industry or something? You sure seem biased towards their view of the world.| 19242|19215|2009-01-08 13:34:34|lachica31|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 03:01:42AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > True but in North America 63% of the oul in the enviroment is from > > natural seepage. 33% from users through spills and unburnt fuel > > discharge or dumping of motor oil Only 4% from production and > > transport. > > Good reasoning there, Jon. "I found a mouse turd in your yard; that > means that it's OK for me to take a shit in your kitchen!" > > Jon, I keep wondering about this. Why is it that you feel that you have > to defend oil companies? .............. > > [sigh] Most of what comes out of an oil seep is bitumen. A thick solid > sludge that mostly (except for some tiny portion) stays on the bottom, > where it comes out. By contrast, the entire cargo of the Valdez floated > on top of the water. Further, the Gulf's ecosystems have been dealing > with that seepage for millions of years, and are adapted to it; Prince > William Sound had no such adaptation. If you take an Alaskan and expose > him to the sun in the Saudi Arabian desert, you can't claim that you > "didn't know" about the damage you'd cause "because Arabs don't have a > problem with it." > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Ben, my thoughts exactly, you took words out of my mouth.| 19243|19243|2009-01-08 13:49:24|lachica31|Chimneys & Grateings - Wood burnning stoves continued.....|What sort of termination would be best for the Chimney? I am aware of the H type, the half H or bent T type and then there is the inverted (upside down) V (^). I have also seen types that look like a donut. What are you guys using and why? Also with regards to the balance pipe, would keeping it close to the chimney to make it as warm as possible be a good idea? Sort of delivering preheated air to the firebox. Lastly, how high off the bottom of the stove should the grate be for coal and what should the spacing be between the rungs? My thinking is to provide a removable grate. The in city type environments where coal is often freely available I wood burn coal and when wwood was available I would remove the grate and burn wood. Regards, Paul Thompson| 19244|19186|2009-01-08 15:19:35|mauro gonzaga|Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck????|I appreciate, I meant that I do not need a 2 ft wide deck side to walk: when the boat is heeled I would place my feet in a very narrow part of the deck i.e. that part which is at the border with the cabin sides. The cabin side will keep my feet from slipping down. mauro --- On Thu, 1/8/09, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck???? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 1:56 AM When I stand on my 2 ft wide side decks the lifelines are hip high, when I stand on the cabin they are less than knee high, and far easier to get launched over by a freak wave or unexpected lurch. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Sorry Alex, I do not understand why a 18 in wide side deck is so dangerous compared to the 24 in. To go forward the heeled boat, presumably you will step on the seam deck-cabin side, wheather side and you do not use the wide side deck you are talking about. I fully agree�flush deck is dangerous at sea. Mauro > > --- On Fri, 1/2/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alex' BS 30 and the flat deck???? > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 11:21 PM > > > > > > > I can't think of any pros. > The cons are the boat looks ugly, is very cave like below decks > regardless of how many skylights you have.I've yet to see an > exception. Ports in the topsides are vulnerable when coming alongside > and will be under water when beating to windward in strong winds ,and > thus a liability if they break or leak. > Standing on a flush deck when well heeled, while beating to > windward, is like trying to straddle a whale , nothing but slippery > deck between you and the leeward rail if you slip. They are far more > dangerous in the likelihood of a "man overbard". Cabinsides give you > something to get your feet against , and give a great sense of > security when you are on a well heeled windward deck. > When you increase the camber of a deck, as would be required to get > adequate headroom in a flush decker , and the boat is well heeled, the > leeward side is much closer to vertical, and drastical increases the > risk of a man overboard. > Raising the side decks 6 inches results in several hundred pounds > reduction in righting moment. The deck has to be at the same height > as the cabintop would be to get the same headroom in the 31 . In the > 36 it would have to either be as high, or the floor would have to be > dropped ,resulting in a huge reduction in tankage and floor space. > The lack of a proper bulwark has just cost a friend his life, a > couple of hundred feet from my boat, a few days ago. When nobody saw > him for four days they dove under his boat and found him, with a big > gash in his head. When the feet slip out from under you and there is > no proper bulwark to stop you, you are going overboard , period. If > you knock yourself out on the way, and there is nobody around ,it's > game over. A toe rail is a pretty useless excuse for a bulwark, and > altho it would slightly reduce the odds of going overboard , it is no > substitiute for a four inch bulwark , especially given the deep snow > and ice at the time. > A flush deck is much harder to build than a trunk cabin and side > decks . With side decks the panels are small and it is easy to keep > the distortion out of them. With a flush deck, the areas are huge > without the stiffness of cabinsides to keep things fair. They are > also much heavier to lift in place. > When you redesign a well proven boat, with so many having been built, > and thus throw away the decades of experience thus gained, you add > exponentially to the time and cost of having to reinvent things. We > have all the patterns well sorted out for the boats we build. Change > things in a major way and you start the learning proccess from > scratch. You also lower the resale value, and make resale much harder > than if one sticks to a well proven design. If it aint brioke, don't > fix it. > Cruisers' interest in flush decks comes from the fact that few have > any experience cruising with adequate 2 ft wide side decks. Until they > have experienced sailing with adequate side decks , flush decks seem > the only solution to being able to get foreward in rough weateher > without it being an obstacle course . > My first boat had two foot side decks . Like all good things ,I came > to take them for granted. On my next boat I made the incredibly > foolish mistake of going for 18 inch side decks( Winabago priorities). > They were great when tied to a dock . When heeled 25 degrees the > lifelines were inside the deck - cabinside joint, and the only way to > get foreward was to climb on the top of the cabin. This was extremely > awkward, and dangerous , greatly increaseing the risk of a fall, and > broken bones , especially as I had also made the foolish mistake of > putting the handrails inboard from the top corner of the cabinside > about six inches , leaving the natural place to put ones foot while > going foreward, outside the handrail, greatly increasing the odds of > a slip. I was embarassed to have made such foolish mistakes. The > increased space in the cabin that motivated me ,was totally useless > space that I could have, and have since, lived well without. You can > get more visual space by putting up a few mirrors, without making your > decks more dangerous. > People have asked me to build narrow side decks . I have always > refused. All have thanked me later when they had the experience of > sailing on other boats in rough conditions with narrow side decks. > They were extrememly grateful for their clear two foot side decks. > I think flush decking smaller boats is a huge mistake. The cons > outweigh the pros by a huge margin. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "jeagle999" wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > I was wondering about the flat deck, what are the pro's and con's ? > > Weight, strength, windows, headroom, looks etc.... > > > > > > > > Thanks for your time, > > j > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "James Pronk" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Alex > > > your little ship looks great! It looks like you will have a lot of > > > fun with her. After looking at the photos I was wondering about > > > inside steering on that boat and you are working on that. > > > Good luck and we are all looking forward to updates. > > > Thank you, > > > James Pronk. > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi group, have posted pix of my BS 30 twin keeler in the group's > > > album > > > > section under "Alex's BS30", for those interested to see this > > > > interesting duck. She's a modified 31 type, flush-decked with a > > > hard > > > > dodger, and 9.9 hp high-thrust outboard in a well. I got her last > > > fall > > > > and plan to have her out and about soon where I can test out her > > > > characteristics. > > > > > > > > In time I plan on adding a wind-vane for self-steering, as well as > > > > retrofitting her with a proper pilot house, possibly of aluminum, > > > > bolted onto a flange. Brent has some ideas about how this can > > work, > > > and > > > > it should result in more light down below as well as an inside > > > steering > > > > position at last. As it is, the hard dodger isn't bad protection > > > from > > > > multiple angles of wind, but it will never have the armchair > > > comfort of > > > > a pilot house, nor the safety of a proper ship's hatch. > > > > > > > > Luckily the boat came with a very spiffing wind-generator, and the > > > boat > > > > should be pretty self-sufficient once a water-catchment system is > > > > added. I'll add updates to the group when I have a chance to have > > > some > > > > more fun with the ship, over time! > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19245|19215|2009-01-08 16:27:02|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Who is defending big oil the only thing I get from them is cheap energy from a group that as a whole has done more to help the enviroment then the users. Exxons profets have nothing to do with anything other then how they spend it and I personaly get none of it directly just like you and others. Exxon itself makes most its money and profets from drilling in countries exept from Kyoto and shiping it to other countries exempt from Kaoto. In this country they have gone as far as contribute to the enviromental groups that villenize them and through back door deals restricted oil drilling and exploration here. Why What you say. It increases there profets from drilling else where and from transporting to the US while restricting compatition. They are a villon looking at the bottom line. I beleave we need to change to cleaner tecnolagy but at the same time the paths being taken are not efficent, reliable or cost effective. Wind and solar for a land base econamy can not supply the needs or be relied on when needed to prosper. That dose not even take into account the enviromental hasards and inpact of each. Vialfuels are a whole new group jokes and enviromental problems. Simple math if you lose 15-30% efficency at 5-10% are you not actualy burning more petro chemicals? No it is not cleaner when all else is concidered in its production and the fact the petro part still has the same byproducts but now more per BTU and mile. What is the answer I would hope to use what works and inprove it short term and work towards real solutions long term while not wasteing money on stuped solutions. Jon Please remove your stool from my sink. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 03:01:42AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > True but in North America 63% of the oul in the enviroment is from > > natural seepage. 33% from users through spills and unburnt fuel > > discharge or dumping of motor oil Only 4% from production and > > transport. > > Good reasoning there, Jon. "I found a mouse turd in your yard; that > means that it's OK for me to take a shit in your kitchen!" > > Jon, I keep wondering about this. Why is it that you feel that you have > to defend oil companies? Does the fact that they're poisoning our air, > water, and land (and you can argue about degrees and percentages, but > you can't get around that basic fact) while ripping us off (highest > profits in history during these war years - that used to be called > "profiteering", and carried jail sentences) somehow make them wonderful > and holy? Or are you perhaps in the oil business yourself? > > > In some areas enviromental groups are calling for drilling > > and extract to reduse seepage. > > That sounds like it came from reading too many Exxon advertisements. > What "environmental groups" are these? Ones created and sponsored by the > oil industry for the purpose of calling for more drilling? > > No drilling is necessary to recover seepage. Containment plants, like > the ones at Coal Point in California, work just fine. > > > In the Gulf Of Mexico more seeps out of > > the ocean floor then was spilled by the Exxon Vadeze. > > [sigh] Most of what comes out of an oil seep is bitumen. A thick solid > sludge that mostly (except for some tiny portion) stays on the bottom, > where it comes out. By contrast, the entire cargo of the Valdez floated > on top of the water. Further, the Gulf's ecosystems have been dealing > with that seepage for millions of years, and are adapted to it; Prince > William Sound had no such adaptation. If you take an Alaskan and expose > him to the sun in the Saudi Arabian desert, you can't claim that you > "didn't know" about the damage you'd cause "because Arabs don't have a > problem with it." > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19246|19246|2009-01-08 16:56:36|thesnotrocket|Pre-ballasted keels|Hi all, I'm wondering if it would be possible to pour lead in the keels out in the open before pulling them into the hull. Has anyone done this? It would be for a 31 footer.| 19247|19215|2009-01-08 17:33:22|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 09:26:57PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Who is defending big oil the only thing I get from them is cheap > energy "Cheap" is a matter of definition. If your version of "cheap" means that your prices at the pump are more important than everyone having clean air to breathe and a clean ocean to swim in, then you and I disagree completely. As to "who is defending big oil", well, that would be you: every time that Brent, or anyone else, brings up the simple fact of pollution, you try to justify it with "yeah, but... XYZ percent this and that, so it's actually OK to keep poisoning the world." I got news for you: it's not OK. Neither you, nor I, nor the oil companies, nor any government owns the earth; at the very most, we're allowed temporary stewardship over it. Now, it just so happens that the governments and the oil companies and every single rapacious bastard who can get his hands on the till have managed to sell, to most people, the idea that they can pay for - and *OWN* - "drilling rights" and whatever other means they choose to destroy these resources that we all hold in common. By chopping down forests, they're destroying the oxygen that we all breathe. By taking that oil out of the ground, they're taking something that belongs to every human being on this earth. Talk to the Canadian cod fishermen - if you can find any - and ask them how "cheap" cod benefitted them in the end (I won't keep you in suspense: Georges Bank fishing is damn near dead, and it used to be one of the most, if not *the* most, productive cod fishery in the world.) Talk to the people in the Amazon Basin - where they've lost almost 150 thousand square miles of jungle in the recent years (data via National Institute of Space Research) - about "cheap" beef (the majority of the deforestation is being done to open up cattle grazing grounds). Hell, talk to *any* working people around you if you live in the US and tell me all about "cheap" - they're all finding out how buying "cheap" Chinese goods has sucked the credit balance _from_ the US and over _to_ China, and how we're "suddenly" having an economic crisis because of it. Then, think about what "cheap" really means. > Exxons profets have nothing to do with > anything other then how they spend it Really? The next time you're dying of thirst and the only shop in town decides to sell you a bottle of water for $1000, you can tell me all about how "profits have nothing to do with anything". A business - especially a large one - exists *only* in a relationship to its society. "Profiteering" is the name of a crime in which a business violates the trust that they hold on behalf of that society. Exxon and the other oil companies took advantage of the oil panic that they created and stole that 30 billion dollars - that's one year's profit, by the way - from the American people. Frankly, I believe that the current gas prices reflect their fear that Obama, once in power, will nail their hides to the wall - as I, personally, believe he should. > I beleave > we need to change to cleaner tecnolagy but at the same time the paths > being taken are not efficent, reliable or cost effective. Wind and > solar for a land base econamy can not supply the needs or be relied > on when needed to prosper. That's complete nonsense. Large sections of California, Colorado, Texas, Iowa, etc. run on wind energy; the US currently has about 20 megawatts of windpower generating capacity, and that's growing at 30-50% every year. Solar is also a huge source of power; I don't recall the numbers, but they're growing at about the same rate. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19248|19215|2009-01-08 18:11:55|Gary Prebble|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Hostages eventually sympathize with their captors. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Who is defending big oil the only thing I get from them is cheap > energy from a group that as a whole has done more to help the > enviroment then the users. Exxons profets have nothing to do with > anything other then how they spend it and I personaly get none of it > directly just like you and others. Exxon itself makes most its money > and profets from drilling in countries exept from Kyoto and shiping > it to other countries exempt from Kaoto. In this country they have > gone as far as contribute to the enviromental groups that villenize > them and through back door deals restricted oil drilling and > exploration here. Why What you say. It increases there profets from > drilling else where and from transporting to the US while restricting > compatition. They are a villon looking at the bottom line. I beleave > we need to change to cleaner tecnolagy but at the same time the paths > being taken are not efficent, reliable or cost effective. Wind and > solar for a land base econamy can not supply the needs or be relied > on when needed to prosper. That dose not even take into account the > enviromental hasards and inpact of each. Vialfuels are a whole new > group jokes and enviromental problems. Simple math if you lose 15- 30% > efficency at 5-10% are you not actualy burning more petro chemicals? > No it is not cleaner when all else is concidered in its production > and the fact the petro part still has the same byproducts but now > more per BTU and mile. What is the answer I would hope to use what > works and inprove it short term and work towards real solutions long > term while not wasteing money on stuped solutions. > > Jon > > Please remove your stool from my sink. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 03:01:42AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > True but in North America 63% of the oul in the enviroment is > from > > > natural seepage. 33% from users through spills and unburnt fuel > > > discharge or dumping of motor oil Only 4% from production and > > > transport. > > > > Good reasoning there, Jon. "I found a mouse turd in your yard; that > > means that it's OK for me to take a shit in your kitchen!" > > > > Jon, I keep wondering about this. Why is it that you feel that you > have > > to defend oil companies? Does the fact that they're poisoning our > air, > > water, and land (and you can argue about degrees and percentages, > but > > you can't get around that basic fact) while ripping us off (highest > > profits in history during these war years - that used to be called > > "profiteering", and carried jail sentences) somehow make them > wonderful > > and holy? Or are you perhaps in the oil business yourself? > > > > > In some areas enviromental groups are calling for drilling > > > and extract to reduse seepage. > > > > That sounds like it came from reading too many Exxon advertisements. > > What "environmental groups" are these? Ones created and sponsored > by the > > oil industry for the purpose of calling for more drilling? > > > > No drilling is necessary to recover seepage. Containment plants, > like > > the ones at Coal Point in California, work just fine. > > > > > In the Gulf Of Mexico more seeps out of > > > the ocean floor then was spilled by the Exxon Vadeze. > > > > [sigh] Most of what comes out of an oil seep is bitumen. A thick > solid > > sludge that mostly (except for some tiny portion) stays on the > bottom, > > where it comes out. By contrast, the entire cargo of the Valdez > floated > > on top of the water. Further, the Gulf's ecosystems have been > dealing > > with that seepage for millions of years, and are adapted to it; > Prince > > William Sound had no such adaptation. If you take an Alaskan and > expose > > him to the sun in the Saudi Arabian desert, you can't claim that you > > "didn't know" about the damage you'd cause "because Arabs don't > have a > > problem with it." > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 19249|19215|2009-01-08 18:15:05|edward_stoneuk|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Firebricks should give a better more homogenous burn with no coldspots from where the tars and gases associated with incomplete combustion can escape up the stack. I would expect a firebox with firebricks to have cleaner chimneys than those without. That said one needs dry wood to get a clean burn. Dry wood on a boat is a bit difficult. The Puget Sound Clean Air agency has a ruck of info on wood stoves and their operation, including a video. http://www.pscleanair.org/actions/woodstoves/basics.aspx I gather the certified stoves have a kind of smoke reburner box inside to cut down on the smoke and tar. When I was a lad on a farm in the UK we had open fires and burnt recently cut logs, which dripped with sap and old railway sleepers, which had been treated with creosote and burnt really well apart from spitting burning embers onto the dog and rug. One got used to licking ones thumb and forefinger to get them wet before picking up the embers and throwing them back into the fire. Often smoke would blow down the chimney and across the room. Any wood stove would be better then that, although sitting gazing into a wood fire with ones thoughts is pleasant. Regards, Ted| 19250|19223|2009-01-08 18:22:27|edward_stoneuk|Re: Ted's wing keels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Hello Ted > How wide did you make the 1/2" base plate for your wing keels? > How far up the side of the keel did you go to blend it back into the > keel side? I will look in old posts to see if I can find it. > Thank you, > James Pronk. > Hi James, The base plate at its widest is about 13" plus the ¾" round bar. The base plate is horizontal with the ground when the boat is level and therefore not perpendicular with the keel fin. The top of the wing is about 7" up the keel side at its highest. I drew it all up before I built it and I've looked again for the drawings but cannot find them, so I took these dimensions off the ones on the boat. Regards, Ted| 19251|19215|2009-01-08 18:33:27|mark hamill|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Hippie Killer--Just remembered that late 60's 70's a US company sold a cast iron kit to convert a 45 gallon barrel into a wood burning stove. Seemed really unsafe even then. It was advertised in a number of back to the land publications. Markh| 19252|19246|2009-01-08 18:33:32|edward_stoneuk|Re: Pre-ballasted keels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "thesnotrocket" wrote: > > Hi all, I'm wondering if it would be possible to pour lead in the > keels out in the open before pulling them into the hull. Has anyone > done this? It would be for a 31 footer. > Dear Snot Rocket, Thats what we did on our 36' BS. There are some pictures in the photos section under 36' Fly. Regards, Ted| 19253|19215|2009-01-08 18:36:33|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|The air and water is cleaner in the US then it was 40 years ago even with the increase of population and number of autos. These increases will continue with out wind and solar power. The areas Ben mentioned in the SW have been also having large problems with brown outs as well as needing other sorces of power to stabelize variations in output. Jon The same propaganda the Eco Fundamantalists use brought Hitler to power --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Hostages eventually sympathize with their captors. | 19254|19215|2009-01-08 18:39:48|Knut F Garshol|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|It is funny how this Origami boat-site frequently ends up discussing totally different matters than boats. I have to admit, that it is easier to accept this when the subject is of interest to myself (human nature....), so I am not ashamed of contributing, but be aware, this time there is nothing about boats. There are many angles into the subject of big-oil, cheap and expensive, cost of pollution, who should cover what cost etc etc. Still, I think it is pretty clear that the hydrocarbon age or the hydrocarbon energy age is coming to an end. If not because we run out of oil, then the consequences of climatic changes may hit us all in the face sooner than we think and force drastic changes. I came to the US in 2000 and I aired my view many times during the years since that the USA is probably the only nation in the world with the power and potential to drastically change the course of what this world is doing in the energy sector (including how we operate cars). The last 8 years, any hope of the USA stepping up to the plate and demonstrating leadership in this sector was of course non-existent, on the contrary, �let us dig ourselves deeper into the hole�! However, with new leadership, there is hope, even though the task has become much more difficult after the recent waste of precious resources on stupid wars (sorry, I had to let it out). What needs to be done is to add the cost of pollution where the pollution is produced (CO2 from power plants, cars etc) and serious incentives have to be provided for research, development and commercial supply of clean energy, clean cars and non-polluting manufacturing and agriculture. Private initiative and risk capital will be funneled into such enterprises if this becomes real policy and a stable business environment. As an example, the solar energy hitting Nevada in just a day (if I remember correctly) is about enough to supply all of the US energy consumption for a year. Of course, the problem is to catch this energy efficiently and to store it during the night. Is this (and other alternatives, like hydrogen energy) just a pipe-dream? May be, may be not. The point is, we do not really have a choice other than working on several alternative fronts, trusting that eventually there will be practical and economical solutions as a result of the efforts. Without trying, there is no solution and we will self-destruct. Could the US develop a car that does not depend on gasoline or other hydrocarbons? I think so, but it takes a decision to go for it and the rest of the world wood follow suit. Obama is right, this could create jobs domestically and trigger a NEW economy. The example of what happened when J F Kennedy decided to send a man to the Moon is a good one in this context. One additional aspect that could be mentioned is that oil is also a raw material for a myriad of different products that we can hardly exist without. Burn the oil for energy and eventually we do not have the necessary raw material. There is much more to be said along these lines, but I think you get my drift. After all, this is about boats and if cars will eventually run without HC, then our boats will probably do the same. I look forward to that and I want to get impressed once again with what this great nation is capable of when the leadership has the guts to define the course. Knut No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1882 - Release Date: 1/8/2009 8:13 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1882 - Release Date: 1/8/2009 8:13 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19255|19215|2009-01-08 18:58:59|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Thank You Knut a little bit closer to reality but we can do it easyer and less disruptive through the privet sector then government buying votes through government programs and money shuffeling. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > It is funny how this Origami boat-site frequently ends up discussing totally > different matters than boats. I have to admit, that it is easier to accept > this when the subject is of interest to myself (human nature....), so I am > not ashamed of contributing, but be aware, this time there is nothing about > boats. > > > > There are many angles into the subject of big-oil, cheap and expensive, cost > of pollution, who should cover what cost etc etc. Still, I think it is > pretty clear that the hydrocarbon age or the hydrocarbon energy age is > coming to an end. If not because we run out of oil, then the consequences of > climatic changes may hit us all in the face sooner than we think and force > drastic changes. > > > > I came to the US in 2000 and I aired my view many times during the years > since that the USA is probably the only nation in the world with the power > and potential to drastically change the course of what this world is doing > in the energy sector (including how we operate cars). The last 8 years, any > hope of the USA stepping up to the plate and demonstrating leadership in > this sector was of course non-existent, on the contrary, "let us dig > ourselves deeper into the hole"! However, with new leadership, there is > hope, even though the task has become much more difficult after the recent > waste of precious resources on stupid wars (sorry, I had to let it out). > > > > What needs to be done is to add the cost of pollution where the pollution is > produced (CO2 from power plants, cars etc) and serious incentives have to be > provided for research, development and commercial supply of clean energy, > clean cars and non-polluting manufacturing and agriculture. Private > initiative and risk capital will be funneled into such enterprises if this > becomes real policy and a stable business environment. As an example, the > solar energy hitting Nevada in just a day (if I remember correctly) is about > enough to supply all of the US energy consumption for a year. Of course, the > problem is to catch this energy efficiently and to store it during the > night. Is this (and other alternatives, like hydrogen energy) just a > pipe-dream? May be, may be not. The point is, we do not really have a choice > other than working on several alternative fronts, trusting that eventually > there will be practical and economical solutions as a result of the efforts. > Without trying, there is no solution and we will self-destruct. Could the US > develop a car that does not depend on gasoline or other hydrocarbons? I > think so, but it takes a decision to go for it and the rest of the world > wood follow suit. Obama is right, this could create jobs domestically and > trigger a NEW economy. The example of what happened when J F Kennedy decided > to send a man to the Moon is a good one in this context. > > > > One additional aspect that could be mentioned is that oil is also a raw > material for a myriad of different products that we can hardly exist > without. Burn the oil for energy and eventually we do not have the necessary > raw material. > > > > There is much more to be said along these lines, but I think you get my > drift. After all, this is about boats and if cars will eventually run > without HC, then our boats will probably do the same. I look forward to that > and I want to get impressed once again with what this great nation is > capable of when the leadership has the guts to define the course. > > > > Knut > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1882 - Release Date: 1/8/2009 > 8:13 AM > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1882 - Release Date: 1/8/2009 > 8:13 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19256|19246|2009-01-08 19:57:38|thesnotrocket|Re: Pre-ballasted keels|Thanks Ted, nice boat. How difficult did you find it installing the keels that way, would you do it differently if you had to do it again? Btw my name is Dave , I really need to get a new account lol. If anyone is wondering, thesnotrocket comes from a few years ago when I was really into sportbikes and had a green Kawasaki (the snot rocket). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Dear Snot Rocket, > > Thats what we did on our 36' BS. There are some pictures in the photos > section under 36' Fly. > > Regards, > Ted > | 19257|19215|2009-01-08 20:14:10|brentswain38|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Cruisers are a questioning lot, or we would quietly spend our lives on the treadmill, and wouldn't be interested in ways of getting off it, like building boats and going cruising. These discussions go with the territory of dealing with people who think outside the box, and don't passively accept "Groupthink. " My kind of folks. Wouldn't have it any other way. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Thank You Knut a little bit closer to reality but we can do it easyer > and less disruptive through the privet sector then government buying > votes through government programs and money shuffeling. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" > wrote: > > > > It is funny how this Origami boat-site frequently ends up > discussing totally > > different matters than boats. I have to admit, that it is easier to > accept > > this when the subject is of interest to myself (human nature....), > so I am > > not ashamed of contributing, but be aware, this time there is > nothing about > > boats. > > > > > > > > There are many angles into the subject of big-oil, cheap and > expensive, cost > > of pollution, who should cover what cost etc etc. Still, I think it > is > > pretty clear that the hydrocarbon age or the hydrocarbon energy age > is > > coming to an end. If not because we run out of oil, then the > consequences of > > climatic changes may hit us all in the face sooner than we think > and force > > drastic changes. > > > > > > > > I came to the US in 2000 and I aired my view many times during the > years > > since that the USA is probably the only nation in the world with > the power > > and potential to drastically change the course of what this world > is doing > > in the energy sector (including how we operate cars). The last 8 > years, any > > hope of the USA stepping up to the plate and demonstrating > leadership in > > this sector was of course non-existent, on the contrary, "let us dig > > ourselves deeper into the hole"! However, with new leadership, > there is > > hope, even though the task has become much more difficult after the > recent > > waste of precious resources on stupid wars (sorry, I had to let it > out). > > > > > > > > What needs to be done is to add the cost of pollution where the > pollution is > > produced (CO2 from power plants, cars etc) and serious incentives > have to be > > provided for research, development and commercial supply of clean > energy, > > clean cars and non-polluting manufacturing and agriculture. Private > > initiative and risk capital will be funneled into such enterprises > if this > > becomes real policy and a stable business environment. As an > example, the > > solar energy hitting Nevada in just a day (if I remember correctly) > is about > > enough to supply all of the US energy consumption for a year. Of > course, the > > problem is to catch this energy efficiently and to store it during > the > > night. Is this (and other alternatives, like hydrogen energy) just a > > pipe-dream? May be, may be not. The point is, we do not really have > a choice > > other than working on several alternative fronts, trusting that > eventually > > there will be practical and economical solutions as a result of the > efforts. > > Without trying, there is no solution and we will self-destruct. > Could the US > > develop a car that does not depend on gasoline or other > hydrocarbons? I > > think so, but it takes a decision to go for it and the rest of the > world > > wood follow suit. Obama is right, this could create jobs > domestically and > > trigger a NEW economy. The example of what happened when J F > Kennedy decided > > to send a man to the Moon is a good one in this context. > > > > > > > > One additional aspect that could be mentioned is that oil is also a > raw > > material for a myriad of different products that we can hardly exist > > without. Burn the oil for energy and eventually we do not have the > necessary > > raw material. > > > > > > > > There is much more to be said along these lines, but I think you > get my > > drift. After all, this is about boats and if cars will eventually > run > > without HC, then our boats will probably do the same. I look > forward to that > > and I want to get impressed once again with what this great nation > is > > capable of when the leadership has the guts to define the course. > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1882 - Release Date: > 1/8/2009 > > 8:13 AM > > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1882 - Release Date: > 1/8/2009 > > 8:13 AM > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19258|19243|2009-01-08 20:26:33|brentswain38|Re: Chimneys & Grateings - Wood burnning stoves continued.....|For the top, cut out a ten inch round of 16 guage stainless, bend it in half and bolt the sides to the chimney. If the bolts are athwartship, you can tilt the back up when anchored from the bow to create a draft before lighting the stove . Reverse when anchored stern to the wind. Tilt it right up to clean. Great for coastal cruising. For deep sea I put the bolts fore and aft , so it works better with a beam wind. The simplest and best I've found so far. I've tried others without success. For wood it has to be easy to clean creosote out of. You wouldn't get much preheat out of a chimney on a stove that is well damped down, altho I like the idea of runnin gthe intake air inside a thin waled 2 inch ss tubin ginside the firebox to preheat the air before letting it out. I'v efound that definitly reduces creaosote. I'd put a coal grate 2 or 3 inchess off the bottom of the stove. 3/4 inch space between them. Give it a shake wit the poker whenever you add fuel. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > What sort of termination would be best for the Chimney? I am aware of > the H type, the half H or bent T type and then there is the inverted > (upside down) V (^). I have also seen types that look like a donut. > What are you guys using and why? > > Also with regards to the balance pipe, would keeping it close to the > chimney to make it as warm as possible be a good idea? Sort of > delivering preheated air to the firebox. > > Lastly, how high off the bottom of the stove should the grate be for > coal and what should the spacing be between the rungs? > > My thinking is to provide a removable grate. The in city type > environments where coal is often freely available I wood burn coal and > when wwood was available I would remove the grate and burn wood. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 19259|19237|2009-01-08 20:29:54|brentswain38|Re: Brent's wood burning stove|A friend welded a stove pipe thru a watertank. Kept it just the right temperature, without boiling. That was an oilstove. If it were made round or oval it could be pressurised with a tire pump and thus eliminate the need for an electric pump for a shower. The fill could be on deck. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Shane, > > > > It should work but how about instead of using a tube, make a double wall on > the fire box, say an inch thick filled with water. If you make it enough > volume you could make it your water tank and get rid of the external tank > made from the beer keg (or keep it for beer). If you are relying on water > to transfer heat, you don't need to radiate the heat out of the firebox to > the living space. > > > > I lived on a boat once that had a similar water heated system. It was > expensive and complicated but really fantastic. When it was minus 10 or 15, > the boat was toasty throughout. The system had a bulb on the tank that > controlled the diesel fuel to the carburetor. It saved a lot of diesel fuel > since it only poured the fuel in when you needed it. It also had an > electric water pump as you describe that turned on once the water was hot, > and shut off when the water was cold. It had an overpressure valve and was > pressurized by the water system on the boat so I could use it for a hot > shower. It was made by the original founders of Force 10 in the early 80s > or late 70s and beautifully constructed. I was told it was the best thing > Force 10 ever did but they only sold a few due to the cost. I am sure you > could do it more simply but I am thinking you will still need a water pump > unless the radiators are higher than the tank. You could keep it open > vented, but I like the idea of the hot showers with the pressure system. > > > > Good luck. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of SHANE ROTHWELL > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 5:31 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's wood burning stove > > > > Hi Brent et All, > > Happy New year! > > I'm planning on heating water by running a couple of heating tubes through > the fire box of an airtight stove to a water tank, connecting the top of the > tube to the top of the water heater, the bottom end to the bottom of the > water tank. Convection will move the heated water. > > I've heard this is the way it was done in the old days. > > The air tight is of course mild carbon steel. > > But what to use for the heating tubes in the fire box? > > Copper may be easiest to fabricate with an externally threaded tube through > the wall of the firebox with a flanged fitting on each side (or just a > washer held in place with a nut onto the threaded tube) and pressure > fittings, either flare or "olive" type. This way would need to have pressure > fittings both inside and outside the firebox. > Going with copper like this I would think that a steel plate inside the > firebox would be needed to protect the copper tube or it will be dammaged > the first time a log gets tossed in without extreme care. Also of concern > (maybe) is the expansion rates of the copper as opposed to the steel of the > wood stove? > > Or a SS tube welded in place with pressure fittings only on the outside of > the firebox > > Or black iron tube welded in place through the wall of the firebox and > threaded fittings inside the firebox to fabricate the "u" shape from bottom > of the loop (in the firebox) to the top. > > Or is there an easier way of doing it? > > Mostly I'm concerned with the safety and the durability of the tubing inside > the fire box > > This system will not be pressurized. but rather will use it for > a> a heat sink to keep things warm like the bricks your family used on the > wood stove, on a smaller scale > b> to connect a heat exchanger to to run the domestic hot water supply > through (planning on putting the heat exchanger on the top line from fire > box to water tank to eliminate the need for a pump > c> will also take a line from the hot water tank & run it to a couple of > heat exchangers/radiators throughout the house. > > will also need a simple system to keep the water level right up in the hot > water tank & plan on just using a sealed container (read SS beer keg) with a > hard line down to the hot water tank (again, this is a non pressureized > system so the hot H2o tank will be vented & there will be evaporation). Am > planning on setting this up like a watering system for a hamster or a bird > cage. > > I'm thinking that a low tech system like this might work really well on a > boat for hot water for showering and perhaps a coil of pex/whatever under > the "V" berth forward (or whatever) to spread the heat more evenly > throughout the boat. > > For my system I will also be using thermostat's out of old electric hot > water heaters to run 12V pumps that will take 40-140oC (now on sale at > Princess Auto) to curculate the water for remote heat exchangers/radiators. > > Your comments much apprecaited! > > Shane > > __________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19260|19260|2009-01-08 20:34:51|lachica31|Position of Brent's wood burnning stove.|Should the opening of the stove face athwartships or for and aft? My preferance would be fore and aft. However the shape is awkward for that. All the picks I have seen show it as athwartships. Could one move the door? Or are there other reasons? Paul Thompson| 19261|19261|2009-01-08 20:40:26|Michael Hess|AW: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|It is called the "Stockholm Syndrome"... I agree with Ben's point most largly and I would add a lot of other points.. but I think this here is not a political group ;) just my 2 cent, Michael (RL 35Deg. 35' 44.97'' N; 139Deg. 20' 03.60'' E ) (virtually 51Deg. 32'05 S; 136Deg. 05' E) ________________________________ Von: Gary Prebble An: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Gesendet: Freitag, den 9. Januar 2009, 08:11:53 Uhr Betreff: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove Hostages eventually sympathize with their captors. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Who is defending big oil the only thing I get from them is cheap > energy from a group that as a whole has done more to help the > enviroment then the users. Exxons profets have nothing to do with > anything other then how they spend it and I personaly get none of it > directly just like you and others. Exxon itself makes most its money > and profets from drilling in countries exept from Kyoto and shiping > it to other countries exempt from Kaoto. In this country they have > gone as far as contribute to the enviromental groups that villenize > them and through back door deals restricted oil drilling and > exploration here. Why What you say. It increases there profets from > drilling else where and from transporting to the US while restricting > compatition. They are a villon looking at the bottom line. I beleave > we need to change to cleaner tecnolagy but at the same time the paths > being taken are not efficent, reliable or cost effective. Wind and > solar for a land base econamy can not supply the needs or be relied > on when needed to prosper. That dose not even take into account the > enviromental hasards and inpact of each. Vialfuels are a whole new > group jokes and enviromental problems. Simple math if you lose 15- 30% > efficency at 5-10% are you not actualy burning more petro chemicals? > No it is not cleaner when all else is concidered in its production > and the fact the petro part still has the same byproducts but now > more per BTU and mile. What is the answer I would hope to use what > works and inprove it short term and work towards real solutions long > term while not wasteing money on stuped solutions. > > Jon > > Please remove your stool from my sink. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 03:01:42AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > True but in North America 63% of the oul in the enviroment is > from > > > natural seepage. 33% from users through spills and unburnt fuel > > > discharge or dumping of motor oil Only 4% from production and > > > transport. > > > > Good reasoning there, Jon. "I found a mouse turd in your yard; that > > means that it's OK for me to take a shit in your kitchen!" > > > > Jon, I keep wondering about this. Why is it that you feel that you > have > > to defend oil companies? Does the fact that they're poisoning our > air, > > water, and land (and you can argue about degrees and percentages, > but > > you can't get around that basic fact) while ripping us off (highest > > profits in history during these war years - that used to be called > > "profiteering" , and carried jail sentences) somehow make them > wonderful > > and holy? Or are you perhaps in the oil business yourself? > > > > > In some areas enviromental groups are calling for drilling > > > and extract to reduse seepage. > > > > That sounds like it came from reading too many Exxon advertisements. > > What "environmental groups" are these? Ones created and sponsored > by the > > oil industry for the purpose of calling for more drilling? > > > > No drilling is necessary to recover seepage. Containment plants, > like > > the ones at Coal Point in California, work just fine. > > > > > In the Gulf Of Mexico more seeps out of > > > the ocean floor then was spilled by the Exxon Vadeze. > > > > [sigh] Most of what comes out of an oil seep is bitumen. A thick > solid > > sludge that mostly (except for some tiny portion) stays on the > bottom, > > where it comes out. By contrast, the entire cargo of the Valdez > floated > > on top of the water. Further, the Gulf's ecosystems have been > dealing > > with that seepage for millions of years, and are adapted to it; > Prince > > William Sound had no such adaptation. If you take an Alaskan and > expose > > him to the sun in the Saudi Arabian desert, you can't claim that you > > "didn't know" about the damage you'd cause "because Arabs don't > have a > > problem with it." > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19262|19260|2009-01-08 21:41:33|thesnotrocket|Re: Position of Brent's wood burnning stove.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > Should the opening of the stove face athwartships or for and aft? My > preferance would be fore and aft. However the shape is awkward for > that. All the picks I have seen show it as athwartships. Could one > move the door? Or are there other reasons? > > Paul Thompson > Somebody posted this link a while ago for a "square" stove design http://uk.geocities.com/faymarine/plansite/fire_design.htm I'm thinking about making one and mounting it to the bulkhead right above the saloon table. I hope this will allow me to fit a decent size hanging locker across from the head in a 31 footer as well as the advantage of a straight chimney and a door that opens for and aft. The only disadvantage I can see is that being so high off the sole might make it less effective but on the other hand it will be more centrally located. I'd cover the bulkhead with fire board with a layer of stainless steel on top for safety and stand the stove off from it some. Is there a rule of thumb as to how much clearance is actually needed around a stove? I believe the residential building code here specifies two feet but that's obviously impossible in a small boat. -Dave| 19263|19215|2009-01-08 22:28:42|peter_d_wiley|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Bullshit. The planet has been around before oils existed and will still be here long after it's all gone. Even the environment you're living in there in Canada is less than 20,000 years old. It was under an ice sheet before that. I'm no fan of stupidly burning fossil fuels when there are better ways to generate power, but ridiculous hyperbole is still ridiculous hyperbole regardless of which side of the argument it comes from. BTW burning wood releases CO2 along with a ton of other nasties including particulates. It's fine in a low density population area but an absolute disaster from an air quality POV if a lot of people in close proximity do it. PDW wrote: > > Oil burning does a far more thorough job of killing the earth. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: > > > > My take is a lot of the Hippy types as showen in your telling read > > Mother Earth News that tells them all kinds of ways to prove Darwin > > right and creative was to kill the earth as it where. Some day they > > will get sued for bad advice by a surviver. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > I think what Brent refers to are the substandard woodstoves that > > > people have cobbled together over the years up and down this coast > > > which have cost many people their lives. Without a lining, then > > thin > > > walled steel of a stove made from an old oil or fuel drum on it's > > side > > > eventually burns through and burns down the house while you sleep. > > No > > > control over the flue, and no air intake controls may have likely > > > contributed to their danger, especially when a banked fire (many > > logs > > > put on to keep the fire going overnight) "runs away" and the fire > > gets > > > out of control. > > > > > > A friend told me the horrific story of a hippy couple on one of the > > > gulf islands who stupidly banked more wood in their drum stove in > > > their cabin, then went out to a party leaving their baby asleep > > > inside. When they returned, the horrified couple found the cabin > > was > > > completely aflame, the baby died in the fire. The wood they had > > banked > > > had "taken off" and the stove must have created a roaring inferno > > > inside itself before either burning through it's sides or creating > > so > > > much heat that it ignited nearby combustible materials and burning > > > down the cabin. > > > > > > The hippy movement brought many people out of urban environments > > into > > > the country, in pursuit of an ideal to go "back to the land". While > > > their ideals were lofty, they lacked backwoods smarts, and to top it > > > off, they often rejected advice from locals who had actual pioneer > > > backgrounds (ie people who put firebrick in their stoves). Thus this > > > type of fire tragedy was repeated with enough regularity to result > > in > > > such an unfortunate appellation for the home-made drum stove, "the > > > hippy killer". > > > > > > One more anecdote about hippies... The husband of a friend of mine > > > fancied himself a back-to-the-lander type in the manner of his > > > Afrikaner forebears, and asked my advice about getting a boat to > > live > > > on with my friend and her teenage daughter plus the couple's new > > baby. > > > I said, "above all don't get an uninsulated fibreglass boat, look > > for > > > an insulated steel Swain at least 36 feet long, with good heat. Your > > > wife will thank you." There was a Swain on the market at that time, > > > actually, and they could have afforded it, but he rejected my advice > > > and went out and bought a 29 foot uninsulated fibreglass boat with > > no > > > heat and pinched ends (meaning the liveable envelope was even > > smaller > > > than 29 feet). They froze in winter and melted in summer. ..My > > friend > > > is single again now, lives ashore, and her ex husband's boat quietly > > > moulders, swinging empty at its mooring up in Comox harbour. > > > > > > Depressing but cautionary tale huh :p > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > | 19264|19215|2009-01-08 22:36:05|peter_d_wiley|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 03:01:42AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > True but in North America 63% of the oul in the enviroment is from > > natural seepage. 33% from users through spills and unburnt fuel > > discharge or dumping of motor oil Only 4% from production and > > transport. > > Good reasoning there, Jon. "I found a mouse turd in your yard; that > means that it's OK for me to take a shit in your kitchen!" Umm, Ben, I think you need to attend remedial math. On those figures, it's more like an elephant has taken a dump so it's therefore OK to toss on a mouse turd. Not the other way round. That said, I agree with you because excusing dumping crap because "it's just a little bit" always leads to MORE. > [sigh] Most of what comes out of an oil seep is bitumen. A thick solid > sludge that mostly (except for some tiny portion) stays on the bottom, > where it comes out. By contrast, the entire cargo of the Valdez floated > on top of the water. Further, the Gulf's ecosystems have been dealing > with that seepage for millions of years, and are adapted to it; Prince > William Sound had no such adaptation. If you take an Alaskan and expose > him to the sun in the Saudi Arabian desert, you can't claim that you > "didn't know" about the damage you'd cause "because Arabs don't have a > problem with it." People still going on about the Valdez? It was a cock-up entirely and brought no credit on the master, owners or company. There are no excuses EVEN IF no long-term harm has resulted. If true, that's been good luck not good management. I'm fortunate to live in an unpolluted part of the world and I've lived in places that were the reverse (like Jakarta). It's a lot nicer living where you can't see the air you're breathing and you can drink the water from the taps or streams & lakes. PDW| 19265|19215|2009-01-08 22:59:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 03:28:40AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > The planet has been around before oils existed and will > still be here long after it's all gone. That's probably true - barring large asteroids and errant black holes or cosmic strings - but that's not the issue, is it? The only thing that us humans really care about is whether the *human race* will survive. To do that, we need to have (for the moment) a planet to live on - and in just the same way that I don't want my main salon full of toxic waste, anyone with even a modicum of awareness would prefer not living in, eating, drinking, and breathing toxic guck. No matter how much profit it brings to some company or other, or how much "cheap" gas it results in. > BTW burning wood releases CO2 along with a ton of other nasties > including particulates. It's fine in a low density population area but > an absolute disaster from an air quality POV if a lot of people in > close proximity do it. You're right about that - but burning oil does all of that and far worse *plus* destroys a non-renewable resource. The "there's no easy answer, so let's keep doing the known-stupid thing" approach isn't workable even if you can point out flaws in the proposed improvements. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19266|19215|2009-01-08 23:33:13|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 11:36:31PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > The air and water is cleaner in the US then it was 40 years ago even > with the increase of population and number of autos. These increases > will continue with out wind and solar power. [laugh] This is arrant nonsense, Jon. Where do you get this stuff, Rush Limbaugh? The only places where the air and the water quality have improved - locally and temporarily - is *only* due to those "Eco Fundamentalists" that you hate so much, wherever they managed to get anti-pollution laws on the books. Despite, it must be said, violent opposition from people like you. > The areas Ben mentioned in > the SW have been also having large problems with brown outs as well as > needing other sorces of power to stabelize variations in output. Just like every single other area of the country (e.g., Pennsylvania and New York as recent examples.) Gosh, who could have possibly imagined that power demands can vary? That's why we have a country-wide power net. > The same propaganda the Eco Fundamantalists use brought Hitler to power I'm afraid you've just demonstrated your ignorance of history, as well. In fact, it's precisely the kind of selective blindness and "Big Brother Uber Alles" propaganda that you display that was used to terrify the Germans' into electing Hitler. I'd suggest reading William Shirer ("Rise and Fall of the Third Reich") - or perhaps just a capsule review from a reputable source: http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp [...] they knew what government officials have known throughout history - that during extreme national emergencies, people are most scared and thus much more willing to surrender their liberties in return for "security." And that’s exactly what happened during the Reichstag terrorist crisis. -- Jacob G. Hornberger, "How Hitler Became a Dictator" The Nazi terror in the early years affected the lives of relatively few Germans and a newly arrived observer was somewhat surprised to see that the people of this country did not seem to feel that they were being cowed... On the contrary, they supported it with genuine enthusiasm. Somehow it imbued them with a new hope and a new confidence and an astonishing faith in the future of their country. -- William Shirer, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19267|19215|2009-01-09 04:27:09|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|> [laugh] This is arrant nonsense, Jon. Where do you get this stuff, Rush > Limbaugh? The only places where the air and the water quality have > improved - locally and temporarily - is *only* due to those "Eco > Fundamentalists" that you hate so much, wherever they managed to get > anti-pollution laws on the books. Despite, it must be said, violent > opposition from people like you. Rush Who you mistake me for someone on the other extream from yourself. I am much closer to the middle and much more aware after all I am on the left coast. It is the proven faulty facts of the Eco fundamtalists not them. To hate them would give them to much inportance. It is fun to wind them up and here them spue there lack of depth. > Just like every single other area of the country (e.g., Pennsylvania and > New York as recent examples.) Gosh, who could have possibly imagined > that power demands can vary? That's why we have a country-wide power > net. Compleatly different thing. The problem is no amount of inprovment of existing energy types will pass the far lefts Idea that only renewable can be added to the grid and zero growth never minding its enviromental hasards and it is not free but subsidized energy. So now we are going to polute with mercery in lights that the common man will not dispose of properly and in ways many do with lead acid batteries.... The money spent on wind used to insulate and up grade heating and cooling on homes and businesses would save more energy then they produce killing no endangered birds. The grid they want to exspand so greatly well clear millions of acers of pathway to get to renewable enviromentaly friendly energy LOL. It makes little sence when other energy plants can be built right next to existing grid effecting 1/10,000 the land and enviroment. > > The same propaganda the Eco Fundamantalists use brought Hitler to power > > I'm afraid you've just demonstrated your ignorance of history, as well. > In fact, it's precisely the kind of selective blindness and "Big Brother > Uber Alles" propaganda that you display that was used to terrify the > Germans' into electing Hitler. I'd suggest reading William Shirer ("Rise > and Fall of the Third Reich") - or perhaps just a capsule review from a > reputable source: > > http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp > > [...] they knew what government officials have known throughout history > - that during extreme national emergencies, people are most scared and > thus much more willing to surrender their liberties in return for > "security." And that’s exactly what happened during the Reichstag > terrorist crisis. > -- Jacob G. Hornberger, "How Hitler Became a Dictator" > > The Nazi terror in the early years affected the lives of relatively > few Germans and a newly arrived observer was somewhat surprised to see > that the people of this country did not seem to feel that they were > being cowed... On the contrary, they supported it with genuine > enthusiasm. Somehow it imbued them with a new hope and a new confidence > and an astonishing faith in the future of their country. > -- William Shirer, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Funny you should know so well so many of the required training manuals of the the Church of Alvin Gore. Yes PROPAGANDA. As well as Silent Spring and the Population Bomb as well as the many on peek oil. Eco groups need scares to get money to lobby agenst overstated problems and made up ones and it is all about only power not the enviroment or ecosystem just power. As Albert Einstine once said to prove a theory correct you need to prove all parts correct. To prove a theory wrong you just need to prove any part wrong. So it is with the theory of AGW many parts of the science where fabricated to get the end result on AR4 presented at Bali and the earth is cooling the oceans are falling and the CO2 is riseing. The AGW theory is wrong we need to spend our money on true solutions not this crap. Jon| 19268|19215|2009-01-09 06:03:35|sae140|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > I got news for you: it's not OK. Neither you, nor I, nor the oil > companies, nor any government owns the earth; > By taking that oil out of the ground, they're taking > something that belongs to every human being on this earth. > Somewhat contradictory ... ? For the continued survival of life on this planet, it's essential that the oil fields are emptied and the energy and chemicals held within them released back into the environment from whence they came (albeit it would be far better if this were done over millenia rather than just a few decades) - otherwise imagine what would happen if (or rather when) a tectonic plate ruptures a major oil field: billions upon billions of barrels of oil instantly released into the environment, causing ocean-wide oil slicks the like of which have never been seen before - a situation just as globally traumatic as a major asteroid strike. Although we see oil fields as holding a precious resource - they are also ticking time bombs. "All fuel is biofuel" Colin| 19269|19246|2009-01-09 06:28:34|edward_stoneuk|Re: Pre-ballasted keels|Hi Dave, Thanks for clearing up the snot rocket question. A fast green motorbike makes sense. We didn't find it difficult and would do it again. We used a chain hoist laid on its side to drag them into position, and two hoists to lift them up through their holes. One would have to use something similar even if they were empty of lead. We put two wooden uprights from the keel line to the cabin roof centre in case the extra weight deformed the structure when we lifted. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "thesnotrocket" wrote: > > Thanks Ted, nice boat. How difficult did you find it installing the > keels that way, would you do it differently if you had to do it again? > > Btw my name is Dave , I really need to get a new account lol. If > anyone is wondering, thesnotrocket comes from a few years ago when I > was really into sportbikes and had a green Kawasaki (the snot rocket). > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Dear Snot Rocket, > > > > Thats what we did on our 36' BS. There are some pictures in the photos > > section under 36' Fly. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > | 19270|19215|2009-01-09 10:03:13|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 03:36:02AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 03:01:42AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > True but in North America 63% of the oul in the enviroment is from > > > natural seepage. 33% from users through spills and unburnt fuel > > > discharge or dumping of motor oil Only 4% from production and > > > transport. > > > > Good reasoning there, Jon. "I found a mouse turd in your yard; that > > means that it's OK for me to take a shit in your kitchen!" > > Umm, Ben, I think you need to attend remedial math. Does that beam in your eye ever itch, Peter? I freely admit that my skills at abstruse and complex math aren't very good - but I can still parse a polynomial, calculate a square root in my head (Newtonian or successive approximation, take your pick), and do a basic area-under-the-curve integration, so I get along just fine, thank you. By comparison, your communication skills are abysmal, and your logic skills are non-existent - so you're the last guy in the world who should be pointing fingers. > On those figures, > it's more like an elephant has taken a dump so it's therefore OK to > toss on a mouse turd. Not the other way round. Oh yes, your comprehension of what's written is also laughable. Good grief, man, can't you even read at the most basic level? The logic chain, since you can't parse it yourself, works like this: 1) The most active seep in the world, Coal Point in California, has produced about 850 barrels of crude oil in *40 years* (that's less than 2 barrels per month for the math-disabled.) 2) Jon's parroting of the oil company propaganda (isn't his toeing the line so cute?) is that it's OK for the oil companies to produce unlimited toxic emissions. Example: in 2005 alone, Chevron - alone - emitted 374 million metric tons of CO2 in its operations; that's about 1.5% of *all* global emissions (data via the International Energy Agency.) In that same period, a soil sample from one of their well sites contained toxic substances that exceeded maximum amounts permitted by U.S. law by 3,250 times, and of 252 water samples taken by Chevron, 99 percent had pollutants that exceeded maximum limits. That, to any rational person - note the 'ratio' part of 'rational', Peter? - is a case of using a mouse turd to justify an elephant dump. You fail at Basic Thinking; to the foot of the class with you. > I'm fortunate to live in an unpolluted part of the world and I've > lived in places that were the reverse (like Jakarta). It's a lot nicer > living where you can't see the air you're breathing and you can drink > the water from the taps or streams & lakes. Well, Peter, that's what many people here are trying to do. However, we're continually hampered by Rush Limbaugh and Bush-worshipping dinosaurs like Jon, and - unfortunately - their well-meaning supporters, who "only want to help clear up the hyperbole" like yourself. The problem with this "hyperbole-clearing" is that the status quo is precisely what Jon and his ilk want: Big Oil spewing pollutants without limit so that Jon and the rest can have "cheap gas". Those who want to CHANGE the status quo have to be loud - very, very loud - in order to be heard; the average person is always resistant to change, and has to have enough information, motivation, and reason to change. As a result, all the polluters have to do is sit back, do nothing, and issue a statement once in a while about how "green" they are, and perhaps another one expressing their shock at the "hyperbole" used by the other side. In short, your "help" - such as it is - is not appreciated. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19271|19215|2009-01-09 10:32:43|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 09:27:07AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > [laugh] This is arrant nonsense, Jon. Where do you get this stuff, > Rush > > Limbaugh? The only places where the air and the water quality have > > improved - locally and temporarily - is *only* due to those "Eco > > Fundamentalists" that you hate so much, wherever they managed to get > > anti-pollution laws on the books. Despite, it must be said, violent > > opposition from people like you. > > Rush Who you mistake me for someone on the other extream from > yourself. I'm not mistaking you for anyone at all; I'm very clear on the facts about you. You're too ignorant to spell or even use a spell-checker, you're too ignorant to look at actual facts instead of spouting company propaganda, you're too ignorant to consider - or even understand - your own long-term good, and you have nothing to contribute to an intelligent discussion. I don't claim to know anything else about you - notice that even the Rush bit was phrased as a question - but I don't need to, for this purpose. > I am much closer to the middle and much more aware after > all I am on the left coast. [laugh] The middle of *what*? That line is the hallmark of a Fox News watcher, with their "balanced" reporting. You can, perhaps, claim to be close to the middle of the conservative fanatics in the Republican party - you know, the one that's just been stomped into the ground at the polls? The one that even the hard-core Republicans are running away from? - but you're a billion miles away from anything like the middle of the US ploitical scale. > It is the proven faulty facts of the Eco > fundamtalists not them. To hate them would give them to much > inportance. It's not like you have a choice, though. Your constant kneejerk reactions anytime that anything ecologically-positive gets mentioned give you away. Oh, and by the way - "Eco fundamentalists"? *There's* a telling usage if one was ever needed. The people who work to bring you and everyone else a better life - clean water, clean air, clean land - are your hated enemies. Remember what I said about ignorance of your own long-term good? If, as you claim, you're not working for Big Oil - i.e., it's not even in your short-term good to support them - then you're that much more of a dupe, and Gary's brilliantly succinct statement says it all about you. The Stockholm Syndrome is alive and well. > It is fun to wind them up and here them spue there lack > of depth. As contrasted against... what, your own lack of depth? You have nothing to back up your nonsense numbers or statements, so your score is zero. You trying to judge other people's depth is just laughable. > > Just like every single other area of the country (e.g., > Pennsylvania and > > New York as recent examples.) Gosh, who could have possibly imagined > > that power demands can vary? That's why we have a country-wide power > > net. > > Compleatly different thing. ...because Jon wants it to be, right? > The problem is no amount of inprovment of > existing energy types will pass the far lefts Idea that only > renewable can be added to the grid and zero growth never minding its > enviromental hasards and it is not free but subsidized energy. I wouldn't know about the "far left" you're talking about any more than I would know about the insane ideas of the far right that you're so attached to, except where I accidentally run across them - like reading what you write (I'm more and more convinced that it's a waste of time equivalent to teaching a pig to sing... this might be my last reply on this topic, I don't know.) What I do know about, in detail, is an intelligent approach to resolving the power and pollution problems here in the US and in the rest of the world - and they are *NOT* based on simple-minded nonsense like what you're spouting. It's a complex problem, with complex solutions. Those who blow off about "the left won't accept anything other than blah, blah, blah" are trying to polarize (do you understand the term?) the discussion so that sophisticated, intelligent solutions are not possible are simply trying to prevent those solutions from being implemented. You mutter this simple-minded propaganda, which only fools and dupes and those who benefit from it believe in, and you think that I mistake you for someone else? Not a chance. > Funny you should know so well so many of the required training > manuals of the the Church of Alvin Gore. [ rolling eyes ] As usual, your kind is terrified of anyone with an education. Particularly one in history, since it highlights and exposes not only your current idiocy but the historical record of such idiocy. > The AGW theory is wrong we need to spend our money on > true solutions not this crap. Name a "true solution", Jon. So far, all you've done is spout company propaganda, and have said nothing useful. Show yourself to actually have some value: tell us about this "true solution" that will produce the necessary power and result in a cleaner environment. I suspect that I'll be waiting in vain for anything resembling an actual intelligent answer. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19272|19215|2009-01-09 10:47:58|Aaron Williams|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|I THINK THIS SAYS IT ALL � Thanks Knut --- On Thu, 1/8/09, Knut F Garshol wrote: It is funny how this Origami boat-site frequently ends up discussing totally different matters than boats. I have to admit, that it is easier to accept this when the subject is of interest to myself (human nature....), so I am not ashamed of contributing, but be aware, this time there is nothing about boats. There are many angles into the subject of big-oil, cheap and expensive, cost of pollution, who should cover what cost etc etc. Still, I think it is pretty clear that the hydrocarbon age or the hydrocarbon energy age is coming to an end. If not because we run out of oil, then the consequences of climatic changes may hit us all in the face sooner than we think and force drastic changes. I came to the US in 2000 and I aired my view many times during the years since that the USA is probably the only nation in the world with the power and potential to drastically change the course of what this world is doing in the energy sector (including how we operate cars). The last 8 years, any hope of the USA stepping up to the plate and demonstrating leadership in this sector was of course non-existent, on the contrary, �let us dig ourselves deeper into the hole�! However, with new leadership, there is hope, even though the task has become much more difficult after the recent waste of precious resources on stupid wars (sorry, I had to let it out). What needs to be done is to add the cost of pollution where the pollution is produced (CO2 from power plants, cars etc) and serious incentives have to be provided for research, development and commercial supply of clean energy, clean cars and non-polluting manufacturing and agriculture. Private initiative and risk capital will be funneled into such enterprises if this becomes real policy and a stable business environment. As an example, the solar energy hitting Nevada in just a day (if I remember correctly) is about enough to supply all of the US energy consumption for a year. Of course, the problem is to catch this energy efficiently and to store it during the night. Is this (and other alternatives, like hydrogen energy) just a pipe-dream? May be, may be not. The point is, we do not really have a choice other than working on several alternative fronts, trusting that eventually there will be practical and economical solutions as a result of the efforts. Without trying, there is no solution and we will self-destruct. Could the US develop a car that does not depend on gasoline or other hydrocarbons? I think so, but it takes a decision to go for it and the rest of the world wood follow suit. Obama is right, this could create jobs domestically and trigger a NEW economy. The example of what happened when J F Kennedy decided to send a man to the Moon is a good one in this context. One additional aspect that could be mentioned is that oil is also a raw material for a myriad of different products that we can hardly exist without. Burn the oil for energy and eventually we do not have the necessary raw material. There is much more to be said along these lines, but I think you get my drift. After all, this is about boats and if cars will eventually run without HC, then our boats will probably do the same. I look forward to that and I want to get impressed once again with what this great nation is capable of when the leadership has the guts to define the course. Knut No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1882 - Release Date: 1/8/2009 8:13 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1882 - Release Date: 1/8/2009 8:13 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:���origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19273|19215|2009-01-09 11:35:44|sae140|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > One additional aspect that could be mentioned is that oil is also a raw > material for a myriad of different products that we can hardly exist > without. Burn the oil for energy and eventually we do not have the necessary > raw material. > Simply not true. Anyone with even an elementary knowledge of organic chemistry knows that it's practicable to synthesise longer chain hydrocarbon compounds given enough feedstock of methane. The seabed contains enough methyl hydrate to keep the world going (at today's consumption rate) for a thousand years. The environmental effect of doing so is of course a completely separate matter.| 19274|19215|2009-01-09 12:08:50|Knut F Garshol|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|That�s good to know. When all the oil has been spent for energy purposes we just switch and everybody is happy........ _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 11:36 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove --- In HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com, Aaron Williams wrote: > One additional aspect that could be mentioned is that oil is also a raw > material for a myriad of different products that we can hardly exist > without. Burn the oil for energy and eventually we do not have the necessary > raw material. > Simply not true. Anyone with even an elementary knowledge of organic chemistry knows that it's practicable to synthesise longer chain hydrocarbon compounds given enough feedstock of methane. The seabed contains enough methyl hydrate to keep the world going (at today's consumption rate) for a thousand years. The environmental effect of doing so is of course a completely separate matter. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1884 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 8:38 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1884 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 8:38 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19275|19215|2009-01-09 12:34:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 11:03:34AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > I got news for you: it's not OK. Neither you, nor I, nor the oil > > companies, nor any government owns the earth; > > > By taking that oil out of the ground, they're taking > > something that belongs to every human being on this earth. > > Somewhat contradictory ... ? > > For the continued survival of life on this planet, it's essential that > the oil fields are emptied and the energy and chemicals held within > them released back into the environment from whence they came (albeit > it would be far better if this were done over millenia rather than > just a few decades) - otherwise imagine what would happen if (or > rather when) a tectonic plate ruptures a major oil field: billions > upon billions of barrels of oil instantly released into the > environment, causing ocean-wide oil slicks the like of which have > never been seen before - a situation just as globally traumatic as a > major asteroid strike. Although we see oil fields as holding a > precious resource - they are also ticking time bombs. Colin, I'm afraid you have a mistaken view of how an oil field works. First, when you talk about releasing the oil into "the environment" - what makes the air or the ocean any more "the environment" than the rock it's in? It's already in the environment; the problem is that the extraction, the refining, and the distribution processes, as well as the day-to-day use of oil as fuel, produces a huge amount of pollution, in many different ways. In order to bring up the "billions upon billions of barrels of oil" from thousands of feet below the surface [1], you need more than just an earthquake - you'd need a miracle (a rift in the lithosphere that extends down that far and is wide enough to allow the oil to gush but narrow enough that the pressure won't dissipate instantly) followed by another miracle (a magically-continuous source of pressure to keep it gushing.) The initial gush - the bit that you see in the movies - is only what they call "primary recovery", and goes on only long enough to "deflate the balloon" - i.e., relieve the pressure exerted by the weight on top of the oil-bearing reservoir rock. Now, here's the kicker: *every* US oil field - and, as far as I know, every major oil field in the world - has already been through primary recovery, and the only extraction methods usable now are tertiary ("enhanced oil recovery") ones: thermal injection (steam), gas injection, and chemical injection (all of this data is from the US Department of Energy, by the way.) I.e., there's no such thing as easily-extracted oil anymore - and there are no pressurized oil fields waiting to unload billions and billions of barrels of oil into our air and water. Even the deep-water ones have been tapped (the Na Kika field, at almost 8,000 feet deep) and are either in their secondary or tertiary phase. The oil companies spewing pollutants in every direction, however, are a daily reality instead of a "possible future" projection. Moreover, it is critical to their business model that they A) continue to abuse the environment for as long as they can, B) delay or destroy any initiatives to create clean energy (for which purpose they spread believable misinformation such as the above), and C) continue to foster legislation and the public image that allow them to keep polluting and taking a profit from it. It's understandable - any living entity, including a business, will fight to remain alive - but it's not acceptable. Not if we humans want to keep living here, on this planet. [1] According to the American Petroleum Institute oil and gas wells have been drilled at depths ranging from a few thousand feet to as deep as 5 miles, with the average oil well in 2004 running 5,249 feet (up from 3,810 feet in 1980.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19276|19215|2009-01-09 12:36:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 04:35:40PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > One additional aspect that could be mentioned is that oil is also a raw > > material for a myriad of different products that we can hardly exist > > without. Burn the oil for energy and eventually we do not have the > necessary > > raw material. > > > > Simply not true. Anyone with even an elementary knowledge of organic > chemistry knows that it's practicable to synthesise longer chain > hydrocarbon compounds given enough feedstock of methane. The seabed > contains enough methyl hydrate to keep the world going (at today's > consumption rate) for a thousand years. The environmental effect of > doing so is of course a completely separate matter. I'm curious. If that's the case, then why aren't we doing so for our fuel? (If it's commercially infeasible, then it's not a real solution, right?) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19277|19260|2009-01-09 13:03:23|mark hamill|Re: Position of Brent's wood burnning stove.|I have a small Fatsco stove (which Brent does not recommend for serious heating and I agree--expensive and rather prone to the cast iron breaking up if they rust) but it has an attached heat shield that extends around the back and really does an excellent job--one can touch it even when the stove is really burning. It's about 3' from the stove body. The flat top also has a wire fiddle that allows one to place a small pot on it. There is a circular grate that allows one to move it back and forth to clear ash. I have used it with coal. The base was mounted on a piece of concrete board (3/8"?) which never got very warm. For a picture etc. www.fatscostoves.com Markh| 19278|19278|2009-01-09 13:35:07|Aaron Williams|Fossil fuels|Ben Your right Ben we can turn methane into oil but if it was cheap and efficient then all of the oil companies would have made the move in that direction all ready. I have a BP gas to liquids plant 5 miles from my house that has been in the experimental stage for over 5 years now. I understand they get great quality oil but I could heat my house for a year on the energy they use to get 10 barrels of oil and still have 10 barrels of oil leftover. Did you know that BP is involved in several wind farms across the U.S.   Lets change the subject to something like fossil fuels. By the way I do work for a contractor that is helping oil companies get oil so you can drive your car and motor your boat in and out of the harbor. We are also hoping to build a gas pipline someday. So you can get away from coal fired electric power generators.   Aaron --- On Fri, 1/9/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 8:33 AM On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 04:35:40PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > One additional aspect that could be mentioned is that oil is also a raw > > material for a myriad of different products that we can hardly exist > > without. Burn the oil for energy and eventually we do not have the > necessary > > raw material. > > > > Simply not true. Anyone with even an elementary knowledge of organic > chemistry knows that it's practicable to synthesise longer chain > hydrocarbon compounds given enough feedstock of methane. The seabed > contains enough methyl hydrate to keep the world going (at today's > consumption rate) for a thousand years. The environmental effect of > doing so is of course a completely separate matter. I'm curious. If that's the case, then why aren't we doing so for our fuel? (If it's commercially infeasible, then it's not a real solution, right?) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19279|19278|2009-01-09 14:10:14|Barney|Fossil fuels|Ben, your problem is your insistence on using facts. We all know from the last eight years that facts are not important when considering whether to teach intelligent design (delightful oxymoron), invade other countries, develop alternative energy, invest in ethanol and "clean coal", etc. Sorry, but you need to stop reading stuff from scientists who have a bias for things "facty". If you'd just put your head in one of the hippy stoves loaded with hippie "herbs" for long enough you could jump on the methyl hydrate boondoggle (oops sorry I meant bandwagon) and see that because its winter, clearly there's no Global Warming. And for those not familiar with having ice in your drink (we are all sailors after all) the reason sea ice doesn't raise water levels is the same reason melting ice doesn't overflow your glass when it melts. However, once the land ice gets going (and its going) that is a different story. But Ben I'd rather hear you tell everyone how Microsoft saved the world of computers ;-) Cheers, Barney| 19280|19278|2009-01-09 14:21:52|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Fossil fuels|Another example of the earth doing what man dose so poorly. Methane traped in the earth from the time the earth formed and plate tectronics moving methel hydrates under ground is makeing new oil all the time. After large earthquake events it is not uncomen for old oil wells to have a increase of oil that has worked up into existing pools to replenish part of what has been removed. In the same way create new undiscovered pools. Some in only a mater of time well start seeping out into the rest of the enviroment. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Ben > Your right Ben we can turn methane into oil but if it was cheap and efficient then all of the oil companies would have made the move in that direction all ready. I have a BP gas to liquids plant 5 miles from my house that has been in the experimental stage for over 5 years now. I understand they get great quality oil but I could heat my house for a year on the energy they use to get 10 barrels of oil and still have 10 barrels of oil leftover. > Did you know that BP is involved in several wind farms across the U.S.   > Lets change the subject to something like fossil fuels. > By the way I do work for a contractor that is helping oil companies get oil so you can drive your car and motor your boat in and out of the harbor. We are also hoping to build a gas pipline someday. So you can get away from coal fired electric power generators. >   > Aaron > > --- On Fri, 1/9/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > From: Ben Okopnik > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 8:33 AM > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 04:35:40PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > One additional aspect that could be mentioned is that oil is also a raw > > > material for a myriad of different products that we can hardly exist > > > without. Burn the oil for energy and eventually we do not have the > > necessary > > > raw material. > > > > > > > Simply not true. Anyone with even an elementary knowledge of organic > > chemistry knows that it's practicable to synthesise longer chain > > hydrocarbon compounds given enough feedstock of methane. The seabed > > contains enough methyl hydrate to keep the world going (at today's > > consumption rate) for a thousand years. The environmental effect of > > doing so is of course a completely separate matter. > > I'm curious. If that's the case, then why aren't we doing so for our > fuel? (If it's commercially infeasible, then it's not a real solution, > right?) > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19281|19215|2009-01-09 14:50:47|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Even the left is changing sides. http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm? FuseAction=Minority.Speeches&ContentRecord_id=b87e3aad-802a-23ad-4fc0- 8e02c7bb8284&Region_id=&Issue_id= Jon| 19282|19215|2009-01-09 15:09:42|Paul Wilson|Future of the oceans.|A good series of articles recently came out from the Economist on the future of the oceans. http://www.economist.com/research/articlesbysubject/displaystory.cfm?subject id=348924 &story_id=12853926 Follow the links to the other articles. It's all pretty interesting reading. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19283|19278|2009-01-09 15:17:24|Ben Okopnik|Re: Fossil fuels|On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 12:09:48PM -0700, Barney wrote: > Ben, your problem is your insistence on using facts. We all know from > the last eight years that facts are not important when considering > whether to teach intelligent design (delightful oxymoron), invade other > countries, develop alternative energy, invest in ethanol and "clean > coal", etc. Sorry, but you need to stop reading stuff from scientists > who have a bias for things "facty". Barney Colbert, is that *YOU?* You, sir, have opened my eyes!!! From now on, I'm rejecting facts and going with my gut. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSE_saVX_2A > If you'd just put your head in one > of the hippy stoves loaded with hippie "herbs" for long enough you could > jump on the methyl hydrate boondoggle (oops sorry I meant bandwagon) and > see that because its winter, clearly there's no Global Warming. Barney, I see you've been talking to the same people I have. "I dunt know about that thar Global Warming - do you know how much I'm payin' for my heating bill?" > And for those not familiar with having ice in your drink (we are all > sailors after all) the reason sea ice doesn't raise water levels is the > same reason melting ice doesn't overflow your glass when it melts. > However, once the land ice gets going (and its going) that is a > different story. So are you saying that if we put land ice in our drinks, they'll just keep going and going? Sounds economical. Where do I get some of that there land ice? (My wife is of Japanese extraction, and as is often the case, is missing the enzyme that breaks down alcohol - meaning that if she drinks a shot of vodka, she'll get sloshed and _stay_ sloshed until she goes to the head. My Russian relatives are all *extremely* jealous of this "ability" of hers. :) > But Ben I'd rather hear you tell everyone how Microsoft saved the world > of computers ;-) Ummm... I'll have to get back to you on that one, Barney. It might take more imagination than I have to come up with that story. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19284|19215|2009-01-09 15:28:28|Paul Wilson|Re: Future of the oceans.|These bloody links always seem to be a pain. If you go to Special Reports and then hit Troubled Waters, the first link should work. Make sure you then also check out the links on the right side of the page to get the related articles. Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:10 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Future of the oceans. A good series of articles recently came out from the Economist on the future of the oceans. http://www.economist.com/research/articlesbysubject/displaystory.cfm?subject id=348924 &story_id=12853926 Follow the links to the other articles. It's all pretty interesting reading. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19285|19215|2009-01-09 16:14:21|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Future of the oceans.|Intewresting but a base assuption is global warming is hapening still in the troubled waters and CO2 articals. The oceans are cooling as well as the air and land even the IPCC agrees to that. It didn't explain the mechanics of asidification or compair to past earth history to prove there is a problems at the levals stated or at what leavels it is a real problem. It has been higher in the past and what natural mecanisoms changed it in the past. A big problem is niterates in fertalizers ect. that cause red tides and dead zones. To rotate crops use less fertalizers and stop growing crops for biofuels would help in this area a lot. To stop bio fuel production would also help in conserving fresh water. As the Austrailian government report stated the Great Barior Reef coral is healthy where protected but over fishing is harming the rest of the reef life. Over all I found it lacking in many areas and right on in others. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > These bloody links always seem to be a pain. > > If you go to Special Reports and then hit Troubled Waters, the first link > should work. Make sure you then also check out the links on the right side > of the page to get the related articles. > > > > Paul | 19286|19215|2009-01-09 16:15:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 07:50:46PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Even the left is changing sides. > http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm? > FuseAction=Minority.Speeches&ContentRecord_id=b87e3aad-802a-23ad-4fc0- > 8e02c7bb8284&Region_id=&Issue_id= [laugh] Only if you're willing to believe a minor political hack with a record for hating the environment and usually voting the Big Business line. http://www.themiddleclass.org/legislator/james-inhofe-452?gclid=CL6QkPOqgpgCFQukHgod2HF_DA Unsurprisingly, Jon has again aligned himself with ignorant losers who support Big Oil. James Inhofe - a Republican from Oklahoma, a state that's 2nd in the nation on natural gas production - is, of course, going to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth about "liberal scientists"... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19287|19215|2009-01-09 16:25:34|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|What ever the far left hangers on to AGW always end up name calling rather then growing. Jon A closed mind is a terrible thing when lose. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 07:50:46PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > Even the left is changing sides. > > http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm? > > FuseAction=Minority.Speeches&ContentRecord_id=b87e3aad-802a-23ad- 4fc0- > > 8e02c7bb8284&Region_id=&Issue_id= > > [laugh] Only if you're willing to believe a minor political hack with a > record for hating the environment and usually voting the Big Business > line. > > http://www.themiddleclass.org/legislator/james-inhofe-452? gclid=CL6QkPOqgpgCFQukHgod2HF_DA > > Unsurprisingly, Jon has again aligned himself with ignorant losers who > support Big Oil. James Inhofe - a Republican from Oklahoma, a state > that's 2nd in the nation on natural gas production - is, of course, > going to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth about "liberal > scientists"... > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19288|19215|2009-01-09 16:52:05|brentswain38|Q!!!|Tell the inuit the arctic ocean is getting colder as they stare out over open water that was once sea ice for 12,000 years and more, that they are simply imagining it. Right wing bullshit has to be challenged wherever it is propagated , lest bullshit unchalleged becomes accepted as fact, due to lack of challenge by realists. When I burn wood in my woodstove, the result is carbon neutral, as it would have produced as much greenhouse gas if it were left to rot. There are no supetankers bringing my heating fuel from the far side of the planet, leaking, belching and sometimes breaking up in the proccess. My wood is not refined in gas belching refineries. If I spend too much time in town amoung the car exhuasts I start to cough. If I run my oil heater , I coughsomething that my wood stove has never caused. My ancestors commonly lived well past 100, heating only with wood stoves. Obviously it didn't hurt them much. We laugh at the Romans for being so incredibly stupid as to carry their wines in lead containers, sweeten them with lead salts, and run their water thru lead pipes. In a hundred years people will laugh at us for being so incredibly stupid as to believe we can live amoung milions of car exhuast pipes without it affecting our health. Freinds who lived in Vancouver the last 5 years ended up using inhalers , which they no longer need after having left the land of belching exhuast pipes. Duhhhhh! Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > What ever the far left hangers on to AGW always end up name calling > rather then growing. > > Jon > > A closed mind is a terrible thing when lose. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 07:50:46PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > Even the left is changing sides. > > > http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm? > > > FuseAction=Minority.Speeches&ContentRecord_id=b87e3aad-802a-23ad- > 4fc0- > > > 8e02c7bb8284&Region_id=&Issue_id= > > > > [laugh] Only if you're willing to believe a minor political hack > with a > > record for hating the environment and usually voting the Big > Business > > line. > > > > http://www.themiddleclass.org/legislator/james-inhofe-452? > gclid=CL6QkPOqgpgCFQukHgod2HF_DA > > > > Unsurprisingly, Jon has again aligned himself with ignorant losers > who > > support Big Oil. James Inhofe - a Republican from Oklahoma, a state > > that's 2nd in the nation on natural gas production - is, of course, > > going to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth > about "liberal > > scientists"... > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 19289|19260|2009-01-09 16:58:13|brentswain38|Re: Position of Brent's wood burnning stove.|I've found that stuffing fibreglass insulation, which doesn't burn, behind the heat shield, is a far better insulator than the heat shield by itself. If you don't want the heat in a cabin and only use the stove for cooking , you can stuff it between the heat shield and the stove. Then all your heat will go to the stove top , or up the chimney. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > I have a small Fatsco stove (which Brent does not recommend for > serious heating and I agree--expensive and rather prone to the cast > iron breaking up if they rust) but it has an attached heat shield that > extends around the back and really does an excellent job--one can > touch it even when the stove is really burning. It's about 3' from the > stove body. The flat top also has a wire fiddle that allows one to > place a small pot on it. There is a circular grate that allows one to > move it back and forth to clear ash. I have used it with coal. The > base was mounted on a piece of concrete board (3/8"?) which never got > very warm. For a picture etc. www.fatscostoves.com > Markh > | 19290|19260|2009-01-09 17:01:27|brentswain38|Re: Position of Brent's wood burnning stove.|Mine , being in the aft quarter of the wheelhouse, faces fore and aft , which I prefer,as it lets me load it when well heeled, which I very rarely have to do. With the stove foreward by the mast, this is not always practical and one can live with it athwartships. Many have, with no serious complaints. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > Should the opening of the stove face athwartships or for and aft? My > preferance would be fore and aft. However the shape is awkward for > that. All the picks I have seen show it as athwartships. Could one > move the door? Or are there other reasons? > > Paul Thompson > | 19291|19215|2009-01-09 17:06:13|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Q!!!|The part of history the AGW croud leaves out. http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tell the inuit the arctic ocean is getting colder as they stare out > over open water that was once sea ice for 12,000 years and more, that > they are simply imagining it. | 19292|19260|2009-01-09 17:13:10|brentswain38|Re: Position of Brent's wood burnning stove.|One could simply butt a piece of thin walled ss stove pipe or square tubing against the back of the stove , leading down to the floor. Then the heating air inside it would rise and pull the cold air from the floor and as it was pulled up the air on top would descend. One could put a computer fan inside it just to help get it started. Stuffing a bunch of fibreglass house insulation behind a thin stainless heat shield to an inch or more thickness would keep any wood behind it room temperature. I had that on my last boat with the stove 3 inches away from the bulkhead , and the bulkhead under it didn't even get warm when the stove was cherry red. Airspace behind the stainless let the bulkhead get quite hot.Fibreglass insulation stopped the heat cold turkey, Asbestos fibreboard was useless at stopping heat. My current stove is no more than three inches from a similarly covered piece of plywood and it hasn't been a problem in the 25 years that I've been using it A good sized pan under the door of any stove, to catch the ashes, is a good idea. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "thesnotrocket" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > Should the opening of the stove face athwartships or for and aft? My > > preferance would be fore and aft. However the shape is awkward for > > that. All the picks I have seen show it as athwartships. Could one > > move the door? Or are there other reasons? > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > Somebody posted this link a while ago for a "square" stove design > http://uk.geocities.com/faymarine/plansite/fire_design.htm > I'm thinking about making one and mounting it to the bulkhead right > above the saloon table. I hope this will allow me to fit a decent > size hanging locker across from the head in a 31 footer as well as the > advantage of a straight chimney and a door that opens for and aft. > The only disadvantage I can see is that being so high off the sole > might make it less effective but on the other hand it will be more > centrally located. I'd cover the bulkhead with fire board with a > layer of stainless steel on top for safety and stand the stove off > from it some. Is there a rule of thumb as to how much clearance is > actually needed around a stove? I believe the residential building > code here specifies two feet but that's obviously impossible in a > small boat. > > -Dave > | 19293|19215|2009-01-09 17:21:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 09:25:32PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > What ever the far left hangers on to AGW always end up name calling > rather then growing. [laugh] *You* - as ignorant as you are - are going to talk to *me* about growing? Jon, you've been copying that Fox News crap for too long. If there ever was a more malaprop, misfit statement uttered here, I've managed to miss it. That one takes the prize. Oh, and by the way: I'm not a "hanger on" of any party; in fact, I dislike both of the standard platforms available, and don't feel any need to associate myself with either one. I do my own thinking. You, on the other hand, are clearly an ultra-right-wing fanatic, unable to think about any viewpoint but that of your echo chamber, and incapable of anything but parroting their standard talking points. Go ahead, tell us about the Adidas shoe-print found next to a dinosaur track. No, really, go ahead - we'll all be nice and hold off laughing... for a while. Meanwhile, I challenged you to tell us about your "true solution" to the energy and environmental crises. So far, all we've heard from you is more and more right-wing propaganda, lies, and distortions - repeated again and again, in classic right-wing fashion. Until you can answer that question, anything you've got to say is nothing but noise. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19294|19215|2009-01-09 17:31:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: Q!!!|On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 10:06:10PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > The part of history the AGW croud leaves out. > http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm The *actual* facts that right-wing fanatics always leave out: http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/ice.area.at.minimum.new.jpg -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19295|19295|2009-01-09 17:34:24|brentswain38|Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for uninsured boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to pay their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our lifestyle, to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance industry dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or who may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore acomodation for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the right of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing thru. Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or not. They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread to other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme established as the norm. Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the interests of the real estate industry. Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not stopping there, so they will get the message clearly. Brent| 19296|19215|2009-01-09 18:08:38|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Q!!!|How funny history starts in the fall of 1978 and leaves out the last 2 years. I expect you to be smarter then that. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 10:06:10PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > The part of history the AGW croud leaves out. > > http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm > > The *actual* facts that right-wing fanatics always leave out: > > http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/ice.area.at.minimum.new.jpg > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19297|19295|2009-01-09 18:52:54|Martin Demers|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo VS sheeps|Unfortunately people are like sheeps and if there is a mooring charge they are going to pay and will say it is like that and there is noting we can do. The same is thrue in provincial and federal parks where you have to pay for some services you didn't had to pay before, is it normal to pay to go camping in the nature? (under a tent) Here, north of Montreal the provincial park charges as much for one night of camping as the youth hostel would charge for a bed for one night, and in summer time they are full!!! Every little town charges entrance and parking fees for any point of interest to visit or enjoy like water falls, swimming...Those places used to be free when I was younger in the 70's. The last places of freedom left are on the ocean and in remote places..well, that is what I thought... Martin. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are > allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for uninsured > boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to pay > their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our lifestyle, > to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights > under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to > persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance industry > dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or who > may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood > under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in > Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore acomodation > for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the right > of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing thru. > Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving > thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the > area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). > All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should > email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or not. > They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I > think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living > outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread to > other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme > established as the norm. > Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the > interests of the real estate industry. > Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all > consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not stopping > there, so they will get the message clearly. > Brent > | 19298|19295|2009-01-09 19:09:42|Paul Wilson|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|Sounds like New Zealand. An over-regulated nanny state. You can't go into junkyard and buy scrap metal because someone thinks you might stub your toe. You can't go into many marinas without insurance. There is talk of everyone having to wear (not just have) a lifejacket on board or be fined. The NZ maritime organization wants to make it mandatory that every vessel has two means of communication on ALL vessels..even dinghies and kayaks according to one of the reps. A cell phone could qualify but I think this is nuts and told the maritime NZ rep so. It's kind of useless to have a cell phone if you don't have any coverage isn't it? Would that make you in violation of the law? Would you be legal if you had a cell phone but had no coverage? Wait, we better hire more bureaucrats so we can figure all this out...When I told him I once sailed from Hawaii to BC without any radio, he didn't understand. How did he think people used to sail? They keep bringing up (as all governments do) mandatory licensing for operators as well. If you look at how many boaters there are in NZ and how few actually run into trouble, all of this is unnecessary but it makes good news. One idiot does a bone-head move on a weekend like running over a water skier and it makes the national news. I believe it's all driven by power and money grabbing bureaucrats who are trying to justify their existence. They all think that everyone needs to be taken care of and they are there to save (regulate) everyone. The fact is they have very little to do with safety. Safety has far more to do with common sense and natural selection than any government regulation. Unfortunately, I think we are fighting a losing battle. Too many people have been spoon fed all their lives and think this is normal and for the common good. One day everyone will wake up and it will be 1984. Sorry if I digressed, but this kind of stuff really gets me going... Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:34 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for uninsured boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to pay their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our lifestyle, to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance industry dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or who may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore acomodation for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the right of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing thru. Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or not. They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread to other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme established as the norm. Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the interests of the real estate industry. Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not stopping there, so they will get the message clearly. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19299|19260|2009-01-09 19:17:23|mark hamill|Re: Position of Brent's wood burnning stove.|I must being going out of my mind. Did somebody recently say that they used a tank and pump which they purchased from Princess Auto to circulate the hot water to radiators when it got to the right temp? If so could you kindly indicate a name or part # for the pump and what temp sensor part # or type and perhaps the type and size of hose and the radiators type. I like Brents idea for the 2" duct but I need to get heat to the ends of my present boat (a cat) and don't necessarily want to put in a second stove--although that might be more on the KISS side and perhaps add some greater flexibility. Running a duct up from the floor really does help to move the air about espcially with a fan (uninsulated boat). Before I installed the same idea it would be 110* at my head and 32* F at my feet with an impenetrable thermal layer just below my waist. I think this might be of interest to a number of boaters. Regarding SS tubing for inside the firebox I worked in a Heat Exchanger plant in my youth and they used SS tubes That were bent in 2 to 1 foot arcs. In order to prevent them from collapsing they filled the bends with lead slugs and then melted the lead out. So I don't know how practical tight radius bends would be to make? Markh| 19300|19300|2009-01-09 19:47:10|CaC|Build your own plasma cutter|Given the skills with building welders and the like that I see on this list, thought this might be of interest to somebody: http://www.instructables.com/id/HOMEMADE_PLASMA_CUTTER Bruce -- Bruce C. Dillahunty http://www.craftacraft.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19301|19215|2009-01-09 21:16:45|James Pronk|Re: Q!!!|Jon If you were to look at the dates of these early explorers trips you will see that it would take them two years to make it through tne north west passage (one very long winter frozen in). Now it can be done in one season, and that is "sailing" the northwest passage! James Pronk. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > The part of history the AGW croud leaves out. > http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Tell the inuit the arctic ocean is getting colder as they stare out > > over open water that was once sea ice for 12,000 years and more, that > > they are simply imagining it. > | 19302|19215|2009-01-09 21:23:02|sae140|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 04:35:40PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > One additional aspect that could be mentioned is that oil is also a raw > > > material for a myriad of different products that we can hardly exist > > > without. Burn the oil for energy and eventually we do not have the > > necessary > > > raw material. > > > > > > > Simply not true. Anyone with even an elementary knowledge of organic > > chemistry knows that it's practicable to synthesise longer chain > > hydrocarbon compounds given enough feedstock of methane. The seabed > > contains enough methyl hydrate to keep the world going (at today's > > consumption rate) for a thousand years. The environmental effect of > > doing so is of course a completely separate matter. > > I'm curious. If that's the case, then why aren't we doing so for our > fuel? (If it's commercially infeasible, then it's not a real solution, > right?) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Because it's still early days. Methane has been recovered from permafrost-associated gas hydrates in the Messoyakha field in western Siberia for only the last 20 years. Recovery tests of methane from similar gas hydrates in the Prudhoe Bay field have yielded similar rates to those from the Russian field - but the extraction technology is still in it's infancy. A lot of work still needs to be done. However it's the same companies which are involved in both methyl hydrate extraction and oil extraction - so it makes obvious economic sense for them to stay with oil for as long as possible. Your claim that there are no pressurised fields remaining is bullshit. One of the main problems of drilling in the North Caspian Depression is the extremely high pressures to be found there (plus the hydrogen sulphide and other foul gases). Don't you remember Sadam Hussein setting the Iraq fields alight as the invading forces approached ? A very convincing and graphic demonstration of oil under pressure ! BTW, Hollywood movie-style wildcat gushers aren't witnessed anymore, not because the pressure isn't there, but because the rigs drill with copious amounts of heavy mud (Barium Sulphate) in the bore to balance the well's pressure - but then, apparently I don't understand anything at all about oil field operations ... There's also a very exciting project currently in it's infancy (in the States) where ethanol is being synthesised directly from CO2 and water by sunlight, using a complex and powerful mirror array. Only a few gallons a day so far, but it's a start. Couldn't find any serious links, but it's mentioned in: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/3561317/James-Mayandrsquos-Big-Ideas.html There's also a EU-funded project for research into the use of solar energy to power the photoelectrochemical gas-phase conversion of CO2 back to hydrocarbon fuels. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/converting_co2_.html| 19303|19215|2009-01-09 21:27:04|James Pronk|Re: Future of the oceans.|There is a function in most computer programs called spell check, I like to use it time to time. Thank you, James Pronk. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Intewresting but a base assuption is global warming is hapening still > in the troubled waters and CO2 articals. The oceans are cooling as > well as the air and land even the IPCC agrees to that. It didn't > explain the mechanics of asidification or compair to past earth > history to prove there is a problems at the levals stated or at what > leavels it is a real problem. It has been higher in the past and what > natural mecanisoms changed it in the past. A big problem is niterates > in fertalizers ect. that cause red tides and dead zones. To rotate > crops use less fertalizers and stop growing crops for biofuels would > help in this area a lot. To stop bio fuel production would also help > in conserving fresh water. As the Austrailian government report > stated the Great Barior Reef coral is healthy where protected but > over fishing is harming the rest of the reef life. Over all I found > it lacking in many areas and right on in others. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > These bloody links always seem to be a pain. > > > > If you go to Special Reports and then hit Troubled Waters, the > first link > > should work. Make sure you then also check out the links on the > right side > > of the page to get the related articles. > > > > > > > > Paul > | 19304|19304|2009-01-09 21:31:41|Gary H. Lucas|Interesting software|Here is a link to an interesting piece of software that would enable one to accurately measure a boat hull for the purposes of duplicating it or even modeling your hull so you could build internal furniture that would actually fit properly in the hull. http://www.rhinophoto3d.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=58 Gary H. Lucas| 19305|19215|2009-01-09 21:52:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Q!!!|On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 11:08:35PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > How funny history starts in the fall of 1978 and leaves out the last > 2 years. I expect you to be smarter then that. I wasn't trying to convince you of anything, Jon; it requires both intelligence and education to understand the things that I'm saying, and you're not qualified on either count. I'm just trying to inform others where the information can be found. Anyone who actually wants to be informed can look around the site; as I recall, there's a link to the current graph from the root node (http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/). The willfully obtuse are cordially invited to continue ranting about... well, anything. Stupidity, like hydrogen, is everywhere. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19306|19215|2009-01-09 22:30:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 02:23:01AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > Because it's still early days. Methane has been recovered from > permafrost-associated gas hydrates in the Messoyakha field in western > Siberia for only the last 20 years. Recovery tests of methane from > similar gas hydrates in the Prudhoe Bay field have yielded similar > rates to those from the Russian field - but the extraction technology > is still in it's infancy. A lot of work still needs to be done. > However it's the same companies which are involved in both methyl > hydrate extraction and oil extraction - so it makes obvious economic > sense for them to stay with oil for as long as possible. If we're looking at technologies that will produce power from renewable resources - i.e., solar mirrors, photovoltaics, wind generators, etc. - versus technologies that use non-renewable resources, why would it make any sense to go for the latter? > Your claim that there are no pressurised fields remaining is bullshit. I didn't make a *claim*. My statement included a qualifier - "as far as I know" - about this *precisely* because I don't know for certain despite having done some research. I'd appreciate your scaling back the asshole attitude unless you want the same in return. > One of the main problems of drilling in the North Caspian Depression > is the extremely high pressures to be found there (plus the hydrogen > sulphide and other foul gases). What does initial pressure have to do with pressure maintenance, or the amount of primary recovery? > Don't you remember Sadam Hussein setting the Iraq fields alight as the > invading forces approached ? A very convincing and graphic > demonstration of oil under pressure ! *Of course* that oil was under pressure: they couldn't do any extraction if it wasn't. This shows nothing about how the pressure was _produced._ > BTW, Hollywood movie-style > wildcat gushers aren't witnessed anymore, not because the pressure > isn't there, but because the rigs drill with copious amounts of heavy > mud (Barium Sulphate) in the bore to balance the well's pressure - but > then, apparently I don't understand anything at all about oil field > operations ... Colin, I've read all that info myself and can quote the stuff all day long. This doesn't make either one of us an expert. You, however, *have* made claims - without any qualifiers - about "billions and billions of barrels" of oil ready to spurt out through a "tectonic plate rupture". I can only regard this as a bizarre fantasy based on ignorance, or at best a severe misunderstanding; it certainly isn't made from expert knowledge. > There's also a very exciting project currently in it's infancy (in the > States) where ethanol is being synthesised directly from CO2 and water > by sunlight, using a complex and powerful mirror array. Only a few > gallons a day so far, but it's a start. Couldn't find any serious > links, but it's mentioned in: > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/3561317/James-Mayandrsquos-Big-Ideas.html If you read the article, he's just a guy with a wild imagination. That's great, but it's not real. In the real world, it's easier to just use the power produced by the mirror array; performing a double conversion is a net loss no matter how you look at it. > There's also a EU-funded project for research into the use of solar > energy to power the photoelectrochemical gas-phase conversion of CO2 > back to hydrocarbon fuels. > http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/converting_co2_.html If it ever happens on a usable scale, this would be a very nice addendum to the currently-available technologies. For the moment, it still has - as the inventor says - a long way to go to practical application. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19307|19295|2009-01-09 23:07:26|Gary Prebble|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|Brent: There is a group in the harbour fighting this elitist bullshit. We need to know where all vested interests stand publicly and post it on the internet...Harbour Chandler, all the mall folks... for starters. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are > allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for uninsured > boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to pay > their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our lifestyle, > to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights > under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to > persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance industry > dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or who > may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood > under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in > Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore acomodation > for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the right > of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing thru. > Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving > thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the > area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). > All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should > email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or not. > They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I > think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living > outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread to > other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme > established as the norm. > Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the > interests of the real estate industry. > Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all > consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not stopping > there, so they will get the message clearly. > Brent > | 19308|19278|2009-01-09 23:40:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Fossil fuels|On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 10:35:05AM -0800, Aaron Williams wrote: > Your right Ben we can turn methane into oil but if it was cheap > and efficient then all of the oil companies would have made the move > in that direction all ready. I have a BP gas to liquids plant 5 miles > from my house that has been in the experimental stage for over 5 years > now. I understand they get great quality oil but I could heat my house > for a year on the energy they use to get 10 barrels of oil and still > have 10 barrels of oil leftover. [grin] Yeah, that's what I understood about the current state of that process. > Did you know that BP is involved in several wind farms across the U.S.   Yep; if I recall correctly, they also co-invested in a huge wind farm in Indonesia. > Lets change the subject to something like fossil fuels. > By the way I do work for a contractor that is helping oil companies > get oil so you can drive your car and motor your boat in and out of > the harbor. We are also hoping to build a gas pipline someday. So you > can get away from coal fired electric power generators. It would be interesting to look into synthofuels - the stuff that the Germans came up with toward the end of WWII. I recall reading up on it at one point; there's a big group here in the US that's actually doing it and using the stuff, and they're quite happy with it - the overall running costs, even without economies of scale, are something like a quarter of petrofuel prices. Unfortunately, wood or other combustibles aren't easy to come by in mid-ocean... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19309|19304|2009-01-10 00:26:23|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Interesting software|Gary, Have been following this since it was beat? Do you know anyone who has actually used it? Have just become an authorized Rhino trainer and was considering including this as part of a training program for the marine industry. R/Jay Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas As scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. -Josh Billings From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Interesting software Here is a link to an interesting piece of software that would enable one to accurately measure a boat hull for the purposes of duplicating it or even modeling your hull so you could build internal furniture that would actually fit properly in the hull. http://www.rhinophoto3d.com/index.php?option=com_content &view=article&id=50&Itemid=58 Gary H. Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19310|19215|2009-01-10 03:55:06|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Q!!!|I should have knowen it was all tied into the same disproven computer models the IPCC uses. ROTFLMAO Sorry the theory and models have been proven wrong. Just this last year a report was on the news that all the ice would melt. It came back with avengence to prove them wrong. Can you show a nonliberal sight Independent preferably that uses data not linked to the IPCC or computer models. This one truly lacks credability and common sense. Off all the people you should know how foulable computer modeling can be. How disrespectful towards everyone. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 11:08:35PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > How funny history starts in the fall of 1978 and leaves out the last > > 2 years. I expect you to be smarter then that. > > I wasn't trying to convince you of anything, Jon; it requires both > intelligence and education to understand the things that I'm saying, and > you're not qualified on either count. I'm just trying to inform others > where the information can be found. Anyone who actually wants to be > informed can look around the site; as I recall, there's a link to the > current graph from the root node (http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/). The > willfully obtuse are cordially invited to continue ranting about... > well, anything. Stupidity, like hydrogen, is everywhere. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19311|19311|2009-01-10 10:16:01|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Lost Messages?|Hi Alex, On Thursday I posted a message under the subject of Brents wood burning stove and it seems to have slipped through the cracks? You mentioned a while ago there had been a similar problem & that you were able to retrieve messages some way? Thanks, Shane __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 19312|19215|2009-01-10 10:49:07|Knut F Garshol|Re: Q!!!|There is no need for computer models to observe directly that the arctic sea ice in summer is substantially reduced, that the ice cap on Greenland is melting, glaciers in Norway are retracting, Santiago Chile getting concerned about their water supply due to Andean glaciers melting etc. The computer models are of course calibrated against what we know to be the case today and then being used to project into the future. It is a little bit lame to discard the predictions of the computer models because �you should know how foulable computer modeling can be� or because you don�t like what they indicate. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 3:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Q!!! I should have knowen it was all tied into the same disproven computer models the IPCC uses. ROTFLMAO Sorry the theory and models have been proven wrong. Just this last year a report was on the news that all the ice would melt. It came back with avengence to prove them wrong. Can you show a nonliberal sight Independent preferably that uses data not linked to the IPCC or computer models. This one truly lacks credability and common sense. Off all the people you should know how foulable computer modeling can be. How disrespectful towards everyone. Jon --- In HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 11:08:35PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > How funny history starts in the fall of 1978 and leaves out the last > > 2 years. I expect you to be smarter then that. > > I wasn't trying to convince you of anything, Jon; it requires both > intelligence and education to understand the things that I'm saying, and > you're not qualified on either count. I'm just trying to inform others > where the information can be found. Anyone who actually wants to be > informed can look around the site; as I recall, there's a link to the > current graph from the root node (HYPERLINK "http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/"http://arctic.-atmos.uiuc.-edu/). The > willfully obtuse are cordially invited to continue ranting about... > well, anything. Stupidity, like hydrogen, is everywhere. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * HYPERLINK "http://LinuxGazette.NET"http://LinuxGazette-.NET * > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 7:59 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 7:59 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19313|19295|2009-01-10 10:58:34|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|Brent, You are 100% correct about the abuse of human rights and YES this is BIG BROTHER at work. Thank you for raising the allarm! However, the legal platform you suggest guarantees that BIG BROTHER will win as the "charter of rights & freedoms" is NOT for human beings and is a flim-flam created around the time of tredeau (may he rot in hell!). How? in the charter of rights & freedoms there is NO mention whatsoever of human beings, there is no mention of property. However, you are onto the right track, but its the Canadian Bill of Rights that you want to use for 3 reasons: 1. It specifically states that it is for the protection of people. Human beings 2. it specifically states that people have a right to their own property 3. ALL acts of parlament MUST pass a review before they are even allowed a 3rd reading (a pre-requisite before being passed into law) to insure that the human rights of Canadians are not infringed in any way. This a opposed to the flim-flam bullshit the govt tries to pass off as protecting the people. there is no pre-requisite like this for the charter flim flam and how often have you heard any gov't porkbarreler even refer to the Canadian Bill of Rights in the last 20 years? The other KEY point is that if BIG BROTHER=beaurocaps are to be put in their place the only way to do that is to represent ourselves as human beings. the legal term for a human being in this country is "Natural Person". If you just tell them your name, you AUTOMATICALLY by tacit acceptance, are assumed to be acting for and on behalf of the artificial person (the corporate entity that you applied for when you applied for a social insurance numer. a social insurance number is a 9 digit number and is in fact a corporate registry number). And who calls the shots for corporations.....the gov't. Again, Thanks for raising the allarm But, like someone else mentioned, we need a list of contacts to get the ball rolling. Cheers, Shane Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:34 pm (PST) The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for uninsured boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to pay their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our lifestyle, to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance industry dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or who may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore acomodation for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the right of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing thru. Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or not. They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread to other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme established as the norm. Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the interests of the real estate industry. Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not stopping there, so they will get the message clearly. Brent __________________________________________________________________ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 19314|19215|2009-01-10 12:08:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: Q!!!|On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 08:55:02AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > I should have knowen it was all tied into the same disproven computer > models the IPCC uses. Only if by "disproven" you mean that your masters have carried out a shrieking campaign against it. There's no scientific data that contradicts it, no matter how much you'd like it to. > ROTFLMAO Sorry the theory and models have been > proven wrong. Just this last year a report was on the news that all > the ice would melt. It came back with avengence to prove them wrong. That's been the hyperconservative freaks' tag line all along; you're simply rehashing their lies. "A report was on the news" is the game from *your* end of the political spectrum - I'm only interested in actual scientific data. By the way, have you come up with that "true solution" yet? Until you do, you stand here exposed as a liar. And I'm going to keep bringing this up whenever you post more of your lies. > Can you show a nonliberal sight Independent preferably that uses data > not linked to the IPCC or computer models. Can you show one single non-conservative site - one that uses actual research data from primary sources - that contradicts global warming? Or is this yet another demonstration that you're a liar? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19315|19215|2009-01-10 12:29:22|Ben Okopnik|Re: Q!!!|On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 10:43:18AM -0500, Knut F Garshol wrote: > There is no need for computer models to observe directly that the arctic sea > ice in summer is substantially reduced, that the ice cap on Greenland is > melting, glaciers in Norway are retracting, Santiago Chile getting concerned > about their water supply due to Andean glaciers melting etc. The computer > models are of course calibrated against what we know to be the case today > and then being used to project into the future. It is a little bit lame to > discard the predictions of the computer models because ?you should know how > foulable computer modeling can be? or because you don?t like what they > indicate. Just to point out a small misconception, and just so we're not letting Jon set the terms of the discussion: those graphs aren't projections. They're a record of factual measurements, including running updates - "observed climate change", as the index page states - by the NOAA National Weather Service, via their Envirnomental Measuring Center. This data was used by the IPCC in their reports; in fact, this is a primary source of data used by anyone interested in the Arctic climate. The only "foulable" part here is Jon's attitude - precisely because he (or more correctly, his conservative echo chamber) doesn't like them. The data itself is highly reliable and corroborated by several other international sources. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19316|19316|2009-01-10 14:53:18|svfrolic|furling project|I am going to build a jib roller furling for my boat based on Brent's book however I am going to use single pipe instead of two. I was said that it is possible to buy 1 1/4" aluminum pipe with slot already made but I couldn't find it on line anywhere so if anybody has an information where to buy it or what it is used for I would greatly appreciate it. The other option is to cut the slot myself on a table router but sanding and smoothing the inside edge is the difficult part of the project (maybe somebody has some tips about that). Third option is to buy a furling extrusion from some second hand sailing store and use it for the project, however I am not sure if the extrusion for the furling with it's own halyard (with pulley on the top of the extrusion) shouldn't be stronger than the commercially available products that use the swivel system and don't have the load from the halyard. I would appreciate all advice. Matt| 19317|19316|2009-01-10 15:38:59|brentswain38|Re: furling project|AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. It is used for the bolt ropes on awnings. A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot and round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring blade on the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the point load of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people were giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a block on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more reliable and less prone to jamming. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svfrolic" wrote: > > I am going to build a jib roller furling for my boat based on Brent's > book however I am going to use single pipe instead of two. > I was said that it is possible to buy 1 1/4" aluminum pipe with slot > already made but I couldn't find it on line anywhere so if anybody has > an information where to buy it or what it is used for I would greatly > appreciate it. > The other option is to cut the slot myself on a table router but > sanding and smoothing the inside edge is the difficult part of the > project (maybe somebody has some tips about that). > Third option is to buy a furling extrusion from some second hand > sailing store and use it for the project, however I am not sure if the > extrusion for the furling with it's own halyard (with pulley on the > top of the extrusion) shouldn't be stronger than the commercially > available products that use the swivel system and don't have the load > from the halyard. > I would appreciate all advice. > > Matt > | 19318|19260|2009-01-10 15:44:05|brentswain38|Re: Position of Brent's wood burnning stove.|Last night someone told me that the 2 inch pipe has to be insulated or it will lose any heat it contains before it gets to the end. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > I must being going out of my mind. > Did somebody recently say that they used a tank and pump which they purchased from > Princess Auto to circulate the hot water to radiators when it got to the right temp? If so could > you kindly indicate a name or part # for the pump and what temp sensor part # or type and > perhaps the type and size of hose and the radiators type. > I like Brents idea for the 2" duct but I need to get heat to the ends of my present boat (a cat) > and don't necessarily want to put in a second stove--although that might be more on the > KISS side and perhaps add some greater flexibility. Running a duct up from the floor really > does help to move the air about espcially with a fan (uninsulated boat). Before I installed the > same idea it would be 110* at my head and 32* F at my feet with an impenetrable thermal > layer just below my waist. I think this might be of interest to a number of boaters. > Regarding SS tubing for inside the firebox I worked in a Heat Exchanger plant in my youth > and they used SS tubes That were bent in 2 to 1 foot arcs. In order to prevent them from > collapsing they filled the bends with lead slugs and then melted the lead out. So I don't know > how practical tight radius bends would be to make? > Markh > | 19319|19215|2009-01-10 15:56:09|brentswain38|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|They have used mirror arays to boil water in the desert, then use the steam to power turbines and generate electricity. They figure there is enough potential in Northern Africa to power Europe. I met a family in Penrhyn , Cook Islands who had a 4 ft diameter solar oven on their boat and were baking bread regularly. I asked the skipper what the temperature in the solar oven was and he said"400 degres" I could have used this knowledge at Fanning island the previous 5 months where locals pay an arm and a leg for kerosene for cooking out of an anual income of $2,000. I hear now they are promoting solar cooking.I could have used it aboard , where propane or butane are unavailable. Eliminating or reducing substantially dependence on oil will make a far more politically stable and peaceful world for us to live and cruise in. Dependence on oil is the reason for most of the major wars of the last 30 years. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 02:23:01AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > > Because it's still early days. Methane has been recovered from > > permafrost-associated gas hydrates in the Messoyakha field in western > > Siberia for only the last 20 years. Recovery tests of methane from > > similar gas hydrates in the Prudhoe Bay field have yielded similar > > rates to those from the Russian field - but the extraction technology > > is still in it's infancy. A lot of work still needs to be done. > > However it's the same companies which are involved in both methyl > > hydrate extraction and oil extraction - so it makes obvious economic > > sense for them to stay with oil for as long as possible. > > If we're looking at technologies that will produce power from renewable > resources - i.e., solar mirrors, photovoltaics, wind generators, etc. - > versus technologies that use non-renewable resources, why would it make > any sense to go for the latter? > > > Your claim that there are no pressurised fields remaining is bullshit. > > I didn't make a *claim*. My statement included a qualifier - "as far as > I know" - about this *precisely* because I don't know for certain > despite having done some research. I'd appreciate your scaling back the > asshole attitude unless you want the same in return. > > > One of the main problems of drilling in the North Caspian Depression > > is the extremely high pressures to be found there (plus the hydrogen > > sulphide and other foul gases). > > What does initial pressure have to do with pressure maintenance, or the > amount of primary recovery? > > > Don't you remember Sadam Hussein setting the Iraq fields alight as the > > invading forces approached ? A very convincing and graphic > > demonstration of oil under pressure ! > > *Of course* that oil was under pressure: they couldn't do any extraction > if it wasn't. This shows nothing about how the pressure was _produced._ > > > BTW, Hollywood movie-style > > wildcat gushers aren't witnessed anymore, not because the pressure > > isn't there, but because the rigs drill with copious amounts of heavy > > mud (Barium Sulphate) in the bore to balance the well's pressure - but > > then, apparently I don't understand anything at all about oil field > > operations ... > > Colin, I've read all that info myself and can quote the stuff all day > long. This doesn't make either one of us an expert. You, however, *have* > made claims - without any qualifiers - about "billions and billions of > barrels" of oil ready to spurt out through a "tectonic plate rupture". > I can only regard this as a bizarre fantasy based on ignorance, or at > best a severe misunderstanding; it certainly isn't made from expert > knowledge. > > > There's also a very exciting project currently in it's infancy (in the > > States) where ethanol is being synthesised directly from CO2 and water > > by sunlight, using a complex and powerful mirror array. Only a few > > gallons a day so far, but it's a start. Couldn't find any serious > > links, but it's mentioned in: > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/3561317/James-Mayandrsquos-Big-Ideas.html > > If you read the article, he's just a guy with a wild imagination. That's > great, but it's not real. In the real world, it's easier to just use the > power produced by the mirror array; performing a double conversion is a > net loss no matter how you look at it. > > > There's also a EU-funded project for research into the use of solar > > energy to power the photoelectrochemical gas-phase conversion of CO2 > > back to hydrocarbon fuels. > > http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/converting_co2_.html > > If it ever happens on a usable scale, this would be a very nice addendum > to the currently-available technologies. For the moment, it still has - > as the inventor says - a long way to go to practical application. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19320|19295|2009-01-10 16:08:39|brentswain38|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|I think puting all our resources to a lawsuit against not only the Harbour Nazis, but the assets of the individuals who try to enforce violations of our charter rights under section 6, section 8 and section 15 of the charter of rights. A civil suit means we can put liens and garnishee orders against their personal bank accounts, wages, and lienns on their houses, cars , and any other personal assets they have. "Following orders " doesn't work as a defence for charter violations. They personally are accountable for their behavior, and their personal assets are liable.They need to be told this. Merchants also need to be informed of the violation of their charter rights under section 6, to persue a livlihood. Posters warning people of their liability if they visit Nanaimo should be posted in all ports south of Nananaimo by spring, especially Ports of Entry. Harbour Nazi phones should be continually ringing off the hook from now on, by those opposed to this violation of our charter rights . Phone calls are cheap. Those who advocate apathy, and passive acceptance are quislings and collaberators of the Harbour Nazis. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Brent: There is a group in the harbour fighting this elitist > bullshit. We need to know where all vested interests stand publicly > and post it on the internet...Harbour Chandler, all the mall folks... > for starters. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are > > allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for > uninsured > > boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to > pay > > their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our > lifestyle, > > to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights > > under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to > > persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance > industry > > dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or > who > > may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood > > under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in > > Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore > acomodation > > for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the > right > > of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing > thru. > > Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving > > thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the > > area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). > > All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should > > email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or > not. > > They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I > > think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living > > outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread > to > > other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme > > established as the norm. > > Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the > > interests of the real estate industry. > > Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all > > consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not > stopping > > there, so they will get the message clearly. > > Brent > > > | 19321|19215|2009-01-10 16:13:15|brentswain38|Re: Q!!!|The conflict over Kashmir is because the glaciers that supply the lions share of the water in Pakistan are drasticaly reduced, and India has an agreement with Pakistan to take only so much water. Now that much water is a much larger porportion of the total. Darfur is a climate change war due to the drought that creates conflict over grazing lands. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > There is no need for computer models to observe directly that the arctic sea > ice in summer is substantially reduced, that the ice cap on Greenland is > melting, glaciers in Norway are retracting, Santiago Chile getting concerned > about their water supply due to Andean glaciers melting etc. The computer > models are of course calibrated against what we know to be the case today > and then being used to project into the future. It is a little bit lame to > discard the predictions of the computer models because "you should know how > foulable computer modeling can be" or because you don't like what they > indicate. > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 3:55 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Q!!! > > > > I should have knowen it was all tied into the same disproven computer > models the IPCC uses. ROTFLMAO Sorry the theory and models have been > proven wrong. Just this last year a report was on the news that all > the ice would melt. It came back with avengence to prove them wrong. > Can you show a nonliberal sight Independent preferably that uses data > not linked to the IPCC or computer models. This one truly lacks > credability and common sense. Off all the people you should know how > foulable computer modeling can be. How disrespectful towards everyone. > > Jon > > --- In HYPERLINK > "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@..., Ben > Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 11:08:35PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > How funny history starts in the fall of 1978 and leaves out the > last > > > 2 years. I expect you to be smarter then that. > > > > I wasn't trying to convince you of anything, Jon; it requires both > > intelligence and education to understand the things that I'm > saying, and > > you're not qualified on either count. I'm just trying to inform > others > > where the information can be found. Anyone who actually wants to be > > informed can look around the site; as I recall, there's a link to > the > > current graph from the root node (HYPERLINK > "http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/"http://arctic.-atmos.uiuc.-edu/). > The > > willfully obtuse are cordially invited to continue ranting about... > > well, anything. Stupidity, like hydrogen, is everywhere. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > HYPERLINK "http://LinuxGazette.NET"http://LinuxGazette-.NET * > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 > 7:59 PM > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 > 7:59 PM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19322|19215|2009-01-10 16:19:42|mark hamill|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove--Solar stoves|http://www.solarcooking.org/plans/default.htm Speaking of Solar Stoves the above site has simple plans. There also "The Solar Boat Book"| 19323|19295|2009-01-10 16:26:05|brentswain38|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|In the 80's I asked Ed Broadbent about the bill of rights. He said it was passed before the charter of rights when such issues were still provincial jurisdiction , and thus had no force, and is thus not legally enforceable. The charter is legally binding as part of our constitution and we have had som eexcellent ruling supporting it by all courts up to the Supreme Court of Canada. Civil Liberties Lawyers said befor the Charter we had nothing, and laws could be totally arbritary with no base ground rules whatever. The charter was drawn up by some great Canadians from all provinces , not only by Pierre Idiot Trudeau. It was one of the good things he supported . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Brent, > > You are 100% correct about the abuse of human rights and YES this is BIG BROTHER at work. Thank you for raising the allarm! > > However, the legal platform you suggest guarantees that BIG BROTHER will win as the "charter of rights & freedoms" is NOT for human beings and is a flim-flam created around the time of tredeau (may he rot in hell!). How? in the charter of rights & freedoms there is NO mention whatsoever of human beings, there is no mention of property. > > However, you are onto the right track, but its the Canadian Bill of Rights that you want to use for 3 reasons: > 1. It specifically states that it is for the protection of people. Human beings > 2. it specifically states that people have a right to their own property > 3. ALL acts of parlament MUST pass a review before they are even allowed a 3rd reading (a pre-requisite before being passed into law) to insure that the human rights of Canadians are not infringed in any way. This a opposed to the flim-flam bullshit the govt tries to pass off as protecting the people. there is no pre-requisite like this for the charter flim flam and how often have you heard any gov't porkbarreler even refer to the Canadian Bill of Rights in the last 20 years? > > The other KEY point is that if BIG BROTHER=beaurocaps are to be put in their place the only way to do that is to represent ourselves as human beings. the legal term for a human being in this country is "Natural Person". If you just tell them your name, you AUTOMATICALLY by tacit acceptance, are assumed to be acting for and on behalf of the artificial person (the corporate entity that you applied for when you applied for a social insurance numer. a social insurance number is a 9 digit number and is in fact a corporate registry number). And who calls the shots for corporations.....the gov't. > > Again, Thanks for raising the allarm > > But, like someone else mentioned, we need a list of contacts to get the ball rolling. > > Cheers, > Shane > > > > > > Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 > Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:34 pm (PST) > The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are > allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for uninsured > boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to pay > their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our lifestyle, > to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights > under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to > persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance industry > dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or who > may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood > under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in > Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore acomodation > for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the right > of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing thru. > Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving > thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the > area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). > All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should > email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or not. > They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I > think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living > outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread to > other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme > established as the norm. > Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the > interests of the real estate industry. > Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all > consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not stopping > there, so they will get the message clearly. > Brent > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > | 19324|19215|2009-01-10 16:30:45|brentswain38|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove--Solar stoves|I tried something similar last summer during a hot spell and couldn't get it hot enough. This year I'll try it with a sheet of glass over it to let the heat build up, and not blow away. Auto window glass from the autowreckers is probably the toughest, and cheap. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > > http://www.solarcooking.org/plans/default.htm > > Speaking of Solar Stoves the above site has simple plans. There also "The Solar Boat Book" > | 19325|19295|2009-01-10 16:52:51|brentswain38|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|The phone number for the Nanaimo Port Authority is 250-753-4146 Phone often, several times a day. Ask your boating friends to phone often, several times a day, wherever you live. Phone calls are pennies now.Those who have free internet based phone service can phone free from anywhere on the planet. My Ontario based phone card shows up on their call display as being from Ontario, even when I call from anywhere on Vancouver Island. So they have no idea where you are calling from. I was told that if one takes a copy of a fax, makes several copies and tapes them to gether in a continuous loop , puts them in the Fax machine friday nite and turns it on, the fax machine receiving the fax just keeps on making copies the whole weekend, till the paper runs out . This also works for overnight faxes. Oh , by the way, the Nanaimo Port Authority's fax number is 250-753-4899. Just in case you wan to send a fax. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > In the 80's I asked Ed Broadbent about the bill of rights. He said it > was passed before the charter of rights when such issues were still > provincial jurisdiction , and thus had no force, and is thus not > legally enforceable. The charter is legally binding as part of our > constitution and we have had som eexcellent ruling supporting it by > all courts up to the Supreme Court of Canada. Civil Liberties Lawyers > said befor the Charter we had nothing, and laws could be totally > arbritary with no base ground rules whatever. > The charter was drawn up by some great Canadians from all provinces , > not only by Pierre Idiot Trudeau. It was one of the good things he > supported . > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > You are 100% correct about the abuse of human rights and YES this is > BIG BROTHER at work. Thank you for raising the allarm! > > > > However, the legal platform you suggest guarantees that BIG BROTHER > will win as the "charter of rights & freedoms" is NOT for human > beings and is a flim-flam created around the time of tredeau (may he > rot in hell!). How? in the charter of rights & freedoms there is NO > mention whatsoever of human beings, there is no mention of property. > > > > However, you are onto the right track, but its the Canadian Bill of > Rights that you want to use for 3 reasons: > > 1. It specifically states that it is for the protection of people. > Human beings > > 2. it specifically states that people have a right to their own property > > 3. ALL acts of parlament MUST pass a review before they are even > allowed a 3rd reading (a pre-requisite before being passed into law) > to insure that the human rights of Canadians are not infringed in any > way. This a opposed to the flim-flam bullshit the govt tries to pass > off as protecting the people. there is no pre-requisite like this for > the charter flim flam and how often have you heard any gov't > porkbarreler even refer to the Canadian Bill of Rights in the last 20 > years? > > > > The other KEY point is that if BIG BROTHER=beaurocaps are to be put > in their place the only way to do that is to represent ourselves as > human beings. the legal term for a human being in this country is > "Natural Person". If you just tell them your name, you AUTOMATICALLY > by tacit acceptance, are assumed to be acting for and on behalf of the > artificial person (the corporate entity that you applied for when you > applied for a social insurance numer. a social insurance number is a 9 > digit number and is in fact a corporate registry number). And who > calls the shots for corporations.....the gov't. > > > > Again, Thanks for raising the allarm > > > > But, like someone else mentioned, we need a list of contacts to get > the ball rolling. > > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@ brentswain38 > > Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:34 pm (PST) > > The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are > > allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for uninsured > > boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to pay > > their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our lifestyle, > > to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights > > under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to > > persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance industry > > dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or who > > may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood > > under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in > > Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore acomodation > > for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the right > > of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing thru. > > Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving > > thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the > > area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). > > All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should > > email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or not. > > They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I > > think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living > > outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread to > > other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme > > established as the norm. > > Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the > > interests of the real estate industry. > > Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all > > consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not stopping > > there, so they will get the message clearly. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to > Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > > > | 19326|19215|2009-01-10 20:33:29|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Q!!!|It is already happening if you look at NOAA and NASA sights where this small satelite history came from. With in weeks of when the big scare came out last year of the big melt several boats with ecotourests and paltitions got stuck in the refreezing in the artic and had to be rescued. Then prominate scientists came out and said it would only be new ice and not last and the polar ice would melt compleatly away according to IPCC in summer of 08. Some glacie have melted some have growen take you pick and get the answer you want. Some have melted and uncovered farmes and mines from before and during Roman times when fewer people poluted with just fire charcoal oil made from animal fat. Was that AGW or natural. All parts of the world have had times of weather, climate, new highs, new lows, storms and drought long before the theory of man made global warming. Vikeings lived in Greenland when it was wormer then now Romans grew grapes and made wine in areas that no one has sence. The IPCCs owen scientists that work on and did reviews show only 1% fermly beleave the green house theory and mans making of added GHG will kill the population off. A large number agree we have contributed to the rise of global temp but not more then a few thousands of a degree. Assesment Reports AR1-4 are controled and writen by polatitions not scientist and so reflect what they want them to say not what the scientist have to say. A lot of scientists are realy mad and speaking about what that the IPCC says they agree with in AR1-4 but that makes them a sceptic so you wouldn't look at any sight they are on being to much to the right of where you are. Why do I not trust the computer models because the IPCC even admits in AR1-4 that they dont have all the peramiters to accuerately forcast but they (polatitions) chose the resaults they thought most accurate. That being the view of that hand picked 1% the other 99% disregarding with any other view where ignored and missrepresented. You want science go read the damb studies and the reviews of the studies by other scientists in the IPCC. Better yet go to NASA and look over the science of sun spots or NOAA and the sciance of ocean currents on climate. Go study the science of CO2 doubleing it will not double the temp it is nonlinear. CO2 is at. Simpler observatins The sun comes out it gets warmer it goes down it gets cooler. When clouds come in at sun set it stays warmer at night then when they dont for days with the same high. Along the same lines check out the NASA report on the temp change when they landed all the plains un the US when 9-11 happened. Enough on that rant you need to check out the real sciance behind AR1-4 yourself. Solutions 1. ADAPT to the biggest part of climate change that has been going on from the birth of the planet. 2. Permote KISS cost effective forms of creating large volumes of energy. If it costs more it creates more poor and they will not be part of the solution in their life style. 3. High density batteries that follow 2. for all formes of transpertation over time as they are developed to meat the requierments. None at presant can fill all needs. This being the biggest problem as we still use one of the oldest tecs. or newer elaments that are priced away from the commen. 4. Fusion-O-Matic like the DMC in Back to the Future. This is the altimate Co2 capture if you just must the simplest and cheapest is to make baking soda with it. Not a lot of money in making baking soda no hight teck no big profets. If you have to have solar flash boilers and turbines work best no new tec. cost a lot less then photovoltic and can produce enough power part time. On a personal leavel I have a solar cooker from the 60s I use camping with a BSA seal on it. Have a solar cigaret lighter from the 70s. Wind is a hazard to nature and man but very profitable with government subsadies. Enviro concerns with clearing forested land to and from new grid. Bio heavy subsidised profeting mostly large corps. reduceing fuel economy requiering more petrolium based fuels to be used then with out. Causes inflation in all parts of life and deprives the poor of food around the world. So what is the short list requierments of your energy you realy havent said much outside tow the green line. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > Only if by "disproven" you mean that your masters have carried out a > shrieking campaign against it. There's no scientific data that > contradicts it, no matter how much you'd like it to. > > That's been the hyperconservative freaks' tag line all along; you're > simply rehashing their lies. "A report was on the news" is the game from > *your* end of the political spectrum - I'm only interested in actual > scientific data. > > By the way, have you come up with that "true solution" yet? Until you > do, you stand here exposed as a liar. And I'm going to keep bringing > this up whenever you post more of your lies. > > Can you show one single non-conservative site - one that uses actual > research data from primary sources - that contradicts global warming? Or > is this yet another demonstration that you're a liar? > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19327|19304|2009-01-10 20:53:42|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Interesting software|Jay, No I don't know anyone actually using. I saw it the Rhino newsgroup. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay K. Jeffries" To: Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:22 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Interesting software > Gary, > > Have been following this since it was beat? Do you know anyone who has > actually used it? Have just become an authorized Rhino trainer and was > considering including this as part of a training program for the marine > industry. > > R/Jay > > > > Respectfully, > > Jay K. Jeffries > > Andros Is., Bahamas > > > > As scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the > demand. > > -Josh Billings > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:32 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Interesting software > > > > Here is a link to an interesting piece of software that would enable one > to > accurately measure a boat hull for the purposes of duplicating it or even > modeling your hull so you could build internal furniture that would > actually > > fit properly in the hull. > > http://www.rhinophoto3d.com/index.php?option=com_content > &Itemid=58> &view=article&id=50&Itemid=58 > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 19328|19304|2009-01-10 21:06:32|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Interesting software|Gary, Thanks for the feedback. While visiting McNeel Miami, discussed methods to capture compound curves for installing windows/ports in large expensive yachts with a gentleman that was there for a class. I suggested this software as one option which would also minimize the amount of equipment he had to lug around the world to capture the dimensions. I did volunteer to lug the equipment as he gets to go to some pretty exotic places and spends dome time on some exquisite yachts. Not sure where he has went with a solution. Just tried a short time ago to get to Rhino Photo's web site but it appears that it is down. Depending on the camera, they are claiming an accuracy of 5ths to 0.5ths. R/Jay Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas As scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. -Josh Billings From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:42 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Interesting software Jay, No I don't know anyone actually using. I saw it the Rhino newsgroup. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay K. Jeffries" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:22 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Interesting software > Gary, > > Have been following this since it was beat? Do you know anyone who has > actually used it? Have just become an authorized Rhino trainer and was > considering including this as part of a training program for the marine > industry. > > R/Jay > > > > Respectfully, > > Jay K. Jeffries > > Andros Is., Bahamas > > > > As scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the > demand. > > -Josh Billings > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] > On > Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:32 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Interesting software > > > > Here is a link to an interesting piece of software that would enable one > to > accurately measure a boat hull for the purposes of duplicating it or even > modeling your hull so you could build internal furniture that would > actually > > fit properly in the hull. > > http://www.rhinophoto3d.com/index.php?option=com_content > &view=article&id=50 > &Itemid=58> &view=article&id=50&Itemid=58 > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19329|19215|2009-01-10 22:55:54|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 08:56:08PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > They have used mirror arays to boil water in the desert, then use the > steam to power turbines and generate electricity. They figure there is > enough potential in Northern Africa to power Europe. I met a family in > Penrhyn , Cook Islands who had a 4 ft diameter solar oven on their > boat and were baking bread regularly. I asked the skipper what the > temperature in the solar oven was and he said"400 degres" > I could have used this knowledge at Fanning island the previous 5 > months where locals pay an arm and a leg for kerosene for cooking out > of an anual income of $2,000. I hear now they are promoting solar > cooking.I could have used it aboard , where propane or butane are > unavailable. Brent, if you want to build one, they're *very* simple - and cost pretty much nothing. Here's a page with plans for a bunch of different ones, all of which are actually being used in different places in the world (one of my favorite pages on the Net, actually), with free plans. Most of them take nothing more than cardboard and foil to build. http://www.solarcooking.org/plans/ I built one on my foredeck when I was in the islands, and it would cook a pot of rice and beans that I set up in the morning by the time I got back from work. If I was cooking meat, I'd have to either get a really big piece (6-8 lbs.) or run out to the boat during lunch; otherwise, it would overcook. Rice by itself took about an hour. > Eliminating or reducing substantially dependence on oil will make a > far more politically stable and peaceful world for us to live and > cruise in. Dependence on oil is the reason for most of the major wars > of the last 30 years. Agreed, completely. I think that a sensible, progressive reduction in oil use can benefit all of us immediately, with greater and greater benefits as time goes on and more research into "green" energy comes in. I find it astounding that anyone outside of oil company execs and shills can even _think_ of arguing against this; it benefits everyone, in uncountable ways - including fewer reasons for going to war. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19330|19215|2009-01-10 22:59:34|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove--Solar stoves|On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 09:19:40PM -0000, mark hamill wrote: > > http://www.solarcooking.org/plans/default.htm > > Speaking of Solar Stoves the above site has simple plans. There also "The Solar Boat Book" [laugh] You beat me to it, Mark. Awesome site, isn't it? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19331|19215|2009-01-11 00:35:14|Ben Okopnik|Re: Q!!!|On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 01:33:28AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > It is already happening if you look at NOAA and NASA sights where > this small satelite history came from. With in weeks of when the big > scare came out last year of the big melt several boats with > ecotourests and paltitions got stuck in the refreezing in the artic > and had to be rescued. Then prominate scientists came out and said it > would only be new ice and not last and the polar ice would melt > compleatly away according to IPCC in summer of 08. "...and then, and then, they said the moon was made of green cheese!!! And then the monster came out from under the bed and ate all the cookies, and I wasn't even *near* the kitchen - REALLY!!!" Jon, would you just stop with the ridiculous invented crap you keep parroting, and check the facts once in a while? Or is that too difficult for you? Yor stories sound childish and silly. > Some glacie have > melted some have growen take you pick and get the answer you want. Yes, Jon. There's a thing called r-a-t-e o-f c-h-a-n-g-e - it's how adults judge whether something is happening over the long term. Perhaps you should get familiar with it. If more glaciers melt than grow, even by a small amount - and in this case, the amounts are huge - and if the majority of those changes move in one direction, then we can track that and predict what will happen. The data is indeed in, it is unequivocal, and only a willfully-blind right-wing extremist would cavil and dodge and lie to avoid the obvious conclusions. > The IPCCs owen > scientists that work on and did reviews show only 1% fermly beleave > the green house theory and mans making of added GHG will kill the > population off. A large number agree we have contributed to the rise > of global temp but not more then a few thousands of a degree. Oh, dear. We're back to the fairy tales again. > Assesment Reports AR1-4 are controled and writen by polatitions not > scientist and so reflect what they want them to say not what the > scientist have to say. [laugh] Your biggest complaint appears to be that they weren't written by *your* politicians. > A lot of scientists are realy mad Yeah, the streets are full of them. They're all waving protest signs and... well, you might want to put down the crack pipe and open the window, Jon. The world will look a little different after the fumes clear. > and speaking > about what that the IPCC says they agree with in AR1-4 but that makes > them a sceptic so you wouldn't look at any sight they are on being to > much to the right of where you are. Even _after_ reading your addled writing for so long, I can't make any sense of this muck. Can you at least speak English when you do this, or does foaming at the mouth prevent anything resembling rational thought? > Why do I not trust the computer > models Jon, I can't imagine anything in the world less interesting than your so-called "reasons" for not trusting research. Frankly, I see you as an ignorant, uneducated political dinosaur, rapidly sinking in your own swamp; your temerity in presuming to judge the work of scientists is amazingly funny - but your judgement in this area is completely worthless. > because the IPCC even admits in AR1-4 that they dont have all > the peramiters to accuerately forcast but they (polatitions) chose > the resaults they thought most accurate. That being the view of that > hand picked 1% the other 99% disregarding with any other view where > ignored and missrepresented. And that 1% is, of course, completely in control - to the extent that the work of the 99% isn't even getting published! Amazing. Must be those amplified brain-waves, diabolically beamed at night via those propeller beanies... Does your foil-lined hat ever itch, Jon? > Simpler observatins The sun comes out it gets warmer it > goes down it gets cooler. When clouds come in at sun set it stays > warmer at night then when they dont for days with the same high. And when you drum your fingers on your lips, it goes 'BIBL-BIBL-BIBL', too! Isn't that _exciting?_ From WordNet: climate n 1: the weather in some location averaged over some long period of time; "the dank climate of southern Wales"; "plants from a cold clime travel best in winter" [syn: {climate}, {clime}] Notice that "long period of time" part, Jon? It does not mean over the period of a day - which is what you're talking about. > Solutions Ahh, here we go. > 1. ADAPT to the biggest part of climate change that has been going on > from the birth of the planet. [laugh] Perhaps you should find out what the word "solutions" means, Jon. This isn't one. > 2. Permote KISS cost effective forms of creating large volumes of > energy. Gosh. Really? We need to create more energy to solve energy problems? I'll phone the newspapers right now - it's *amazing* that no one has figured that out until now. Another failure, Jon. So far, you're just making hollow noises. > 3. High density batteries that follow 2. for all formes of > transpertation over time as they are developed to meat the > requierments. None at presant can fill all needs. This being the > biggest problem as we still use one of the oldest tecs. or newer > elaments that are priced away from the commen. Err... so you're saying that your proposed "solution" doesn't exist. Ho-kay, then... > 4. Fusion-O-Matic like the DMC in Back to the Future. This is the > altimate Ah, now we come to a Jon "special" - fantasy! So sorry to harsh your buzz, dude; that's a non-starter too. > Co2 capture if you just must the simplest and cheapest is to make > baking soda with it. Not a lot of money in making baking soda no > hight teck no big profets. [blink] And this is supposed to happen *how*? Another pie-in-the-sky non-solution. > If you have to have solar flash boilers and turbines work best no new > tec. cost a lot less then photovoltic and can produce enough power > part time. Finally, something that sounds at least partly plausible. Except... not. Flash boilers don't collect or produce energy; they convert it (losing a percentage of input as heat.) They can't be compared to photovoltaic panels because PVs actually collect solar energy. Ditto turbines, which need fuel to operate. ******************************************************************** In short, you have not one single idea of how to improve anything or create anything useful. Exactly as I had said at the beginning of this discussion. ******************************************************************** > So what is the short list requierments of your energy For once, Jon, I'm going to take you seriously - especially since you tried (too bad about the complete failure) to give your list. First, I'm not looking for absolute and immediate solutions; as Brent said, any improvement in this direction is a good thing, and more will come with time. There are literally thousands if not millions of proven ideas - all that's lacking is the political will to implement them - but here are some moves in a positive direction. * Large-scale government initiatives to educate people about renewable energy as well as provide strong incentives to businesses to use renewable energy wherever possible. Note that a number of large businesses are already doing this without incentives; with them in place, this will be an avalanche. * Revisit decisions about the methods used to support the infrastructure - e.g., rethink how cities are run (transportation, food in/garbage out, etc.) and modify those methods to be as green as possible, where possible. Revisit those decisions every five years. * Build more high-efficiency systems in the energy cycle - i.e., fusion ovens for burning garbage that also use the heat to power generators (or heat homes directly). * Build more closed systems in the energy cycle - i.e., integrated pond-managements systems (e.g., ponds with ducks, carp, algae, and snails, where the sun drives algae growth, the carp and the ducks eat the algae, the snails clean up the dead plant matter, and the ducks and the carp provide fertilizer for the plants.) * Build more large-scale wind farms and solar collector farms. This is effective even in cities: rooftops covered with solar panels can provide either a large percentage or all of a home's power needs. I could go on and on; my point is that all of this can be and should be done right now, and that there's a multitude of other positive changes that can be made - easily and with huge positive results. There's nothing preventing it except entrenched bastards who don't care about poisoning the rest of humanity as long as they can make a buck. Finding anything awful and horrible in any of this, Jon? Or have you been fighting phantoms? That happens when you keep your eyes and ears closed but keep your mouth running at top speed. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19332|19215|2009-01-11 02:02:07|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Q!!!|Simply explain what you think is cause and effect that is scientifically proven and include source of science that has passed review of the greater science comunity. While you are at it read some of the science reports and reviews in the IPCC vast collection. That would not be just the ones that meet your end solution. It is more then obvious you have not read any of them and most likly not even the AR4 that was the talk of Bali. I find it interesting you always attack so rudely directions right out of the socalist agenda hand book. Sorry you feal the need for all the personal attacks it realy makes you look bad and uninformed towing the line for the far left and there socalist friends. So I will follow by example to make it OK for you. Feal free to do your part for the reduction in overpopulation. Don't exspect me to follow your example. Dec. 09 is the big get togather on Kyoto it will be realy interesting to see how that turns out. Till then Jon| 19333|19215|2009-01-11 02:21:28|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove--Solar stoves|Now to the real wood stove that has to do with boating rather then the government wasting it so boating costs more. In my younger years I worked as a welder in a factory building wood stoves that where brick lined. One design we were contracted to build used plates that where butted and outsid welbed then ground to a curve. When just butting the plates and outside welding in time the joints failed from exspansion and contraction. The solution was to run a bead on the inside also to tack the flex out at the corners from hot cold cycles. Just a thought for those that want to weld up a stove. I did save the sight and downloaded the plans. With a cadalitivc converter like required here it would emit little other then CO2. Jon| 19334|19215|2009-01-11 05:03:57|peter_d_wiley|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 08:56:08PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > They have used mirror arays to boil water in the desert, then use the > > steam to power turbines and generate electricity. They figure there is > > enough potential in Northern Africa to power Europe. I met a family in > > Penrhyn , Cook Islands who had a 4 ft diameter solar oven on their > > boat and were baking bread regularly. I asked the skipper what the > > temperature in the solar oven was and he said"400 degres" > > I could have used this knowledge at Fanning island the previous 5 > > months where locals pay an arm and a leg for kerosene for cooking out > > of an anual income of $2,000. I hear now they are promoting solar > > cooking.I could have used it aboard , where propane or butane are > > unavailable. > > Brent, if you want to build one, they're *very* simple - and cost pretty > much nothing. Here's a page with plans for a bunch of different ones, > all of which are actually being used in different places in the world > (one of my favorite pages on the Net, actually), with free plans. Most > of them take nothing more than cardboard and foil to build. > > http://www.solarcooking.org/plans/ > > I built one on my foredeck when I was in the islands, and it would cook > a pot of rice and beans that I set up in the morning by the time I got > back from work. If I was cooking meat, I'd have to either get a really > big piece (6-8 lbs.) or run out to the boat during lunch; otherwise, it > would overcook. Rice by itself took about an hour. > > > Eliminating or reducing substantially dependence on oil will make a > > far more politically stable and peaceful world for us to live and > > cruise in. Dependence on oil is the reason for most of the major wars > > of the last 30 years. > > Agreed, completely. I think that a sensible, progressive reduction in > oil use can benefit all of us immediately, with greater and greater > benefits as time goes on and more research into "green" energy comes in. > I find it astounding that anyone outside of oil company execs and shills > can even _think_ of arguing against this; it benefits everyone, in > uncountable ways - including fewer reasons for going to war. I've actually been saying that for over 15 years now. It breaks the strategic dependence on places like Saudi Arabia and other repressive countries. Without oil revenues they drop back to being societies that can't survive at 21C levels of technology and have close to zero ability to export perversions like Wahabi creeds. Don't know if you've ever come across them but reading Louis Burkhardt and than Wilfred Thesiger in close succession (esp ALL of Thesiger's books) will be an eye opener. Personally I'm a proponent of nuclear power until we get something better. I don't think it's the answer to everything, merely better technology for producing baseload electricity than any of the other methods. PDW| 19335|19295|2009-01-11 08:07:08|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|Hi , I have read with interest the posts on charges and rules being put into place and I do wonder about some of the comments. I live on a narrowboat in the UK and all inland waterway craft need a license and insurance. Those owners that buck the payment of these fees are not allowed in the mooring I use.Are those that do not have insurance going to pay any damages they cause, out of their own pocket ,I think not. I can understand some of the concerns but all societies have rules .Change the rule makers would seem to be the way to go. Recent events seem to show that neither capitalism or communism works,both appear to crumble under the same fault human greed.The same greed that will rob the fisherman of his fish,the farmer of his crop and the ability of a man to live at peace in the world . As to the troubles caused by religion,in my last life I did not believe in reincarnation , in this one I am not so sure.LOL Happy New Year to you all Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19336|19215|2009-01-11 09:20:25|Gary Prebble|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Professor Peter Cawood, acting head of The University of Western Australia's School of Earth and Environment as published in "Science Journal" January 2nd 2009 "The rate of climate change is now so much faster than we can observe in the rock record," he said. "There have been extremes in the past - once the Earth was a `snowball' with solid ice at the equator - but at this rate we can't support our current lifestyle, already causing mass extinctions of flora and fauna. The Earth will survive climate change - but humanity may not." My old hockey team mate still sucks back his smokes, still arguing about lack of true evidence of health risk.| 19337|19278|2009-01-11 10:22:41|audeojude|Re: Fossil fuels|> > But Ben I'd rather hear you tell everyone how Microsoft saved the world > > of computers ;-) > > Ummm... I'll have to get back to you on that one, Barney. It might take > more imagination than I have to come up with that story. :) Thank god that you couldn't come up with that story... I would have had to give up years and years of unreasoning dislike, disdain and despite for microsoft and bill gates. :) Long live Linux!!!!! Jon and Ben, you both are on opposite sides of a serious issue that both of you seem to have strong feelings about. However lets get back to boats. A brief side trek into the subject isn't a big deal but I'm having to dig through the global warming threads to find the boat warming posts. To be honest I think both of you would have stopped talking to each other long ago :) if there wasn't an audience. Ben, I have a friend now that sailed down and are living at marathon on their boats. I think they are planning to hit the bahamas for a while this winter also. I get many more people like you and them living down in the warm lands of pretty water and I'm going to have to just say the heck with it and close up shop and take my itty bitty 23 footer and go down there instead of waiting on getting a bigger boat. :) Scott| 19338|19338|2009-01-11 10:43:02|Sgt Sak|Global climate change fight...|I have been on this group for many years usually we are pretty good about being civil and staying on topics related to building, living on and cruising the best sailboats ever built. I might suggest taking the climate change argument to a different board. I will offer a couple of thoughts, 15,000 years ago where I sit (upstate ny) was a mile thick sheet of ice. I'm kind of glad it melted. The earth has been a sheet of ice from pole to pole and a tropical jungle from pole to pole. The climate changes, it always will, chemical pollution is a far greater issue than carbon. We as a species need to quit wasting resources fighting over land, religion or ideology and pool the collective knowledge and intelligence to get off this rock and expand into the vastness of space. Eventually earth will die, either due to an extra terrestrial source or it's own instability. Regards Phil| 19339|19339|2009-01-11 12:52:13|Tom Mann|MBS|Hello All Anyone been following the MBS ? I guess they have been having problems so some of the members started a new forum. www.metalboatbuilding.org Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19340|19295|2009-01-11 14:13:18|Tom Mann|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|Well Good Luck with that one Brent, seems they are following suit of whats going on down here in California, Been getting worse every year. Seems to me the only way we have some of the rights we should have and did have is to pay. Ticks me off to no end . My small boat is not in the water anymore because of it. Maina wanted $300,000 liability with them listed as benafishery, could not be on the lake after dark along with a long list of what you cant do. I think all the coastal harbors are as you describe short term avchorage if that even. Tom On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 2:34 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are > allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for uninsured > boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to pay > their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our lifestyle, > to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights > under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to > persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance industry > dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or who > may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood > under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in > Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore acomodation > for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the right > of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing thru. > Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving > thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the > area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). > All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should > email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or not. > They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I > think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living > outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread to > other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme > established as the norm. > Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the > interests of the real estate industry. > Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all > consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not stopping > there, so they will get the message clearly. > Brent > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19341|19339|2009-01-11 14:37:42|Paul Wilson|Re: MBS|Tom, what were the problems with MBS? I haven't followed it that closely. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Mann Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:52 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] MBS Hello All Anyone been following the MBS ? I guess they have been having problems so some of the members started a new forum. www.metalboatbuilding.org Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19342|19316|2009-01-11 16:33:39|svfrolic|Re: furling project|Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick pipe is strong enough? I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own extrusion what might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. It is > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot and > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring blade on > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the point load > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people were > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a block > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > reliable and less prone to jamming. > Brent | 19343|19304|2009-01-11 16:51:47|Gordon Schnell|Re: Interesting software|I have used Rhino 3D software. It's very powerful, but the learning curve is "steep". This looks like a very useful tool. Wonder what the "learning curve" would be. Thanks for the link. Gord Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > Jay, > No I don't know anyone actually using. I saw it the Rhino newsgroup. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jay K. Jeffries" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:22 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Interesting software > > > Gary, > > > > Have been following this since it was beat? Do you know anyone who has > > actually used it? Have just become an authorized Rhino trainer and was > > considering including this as part of a training program for the marine > > industry. > > > > R/Jay > > > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Jay K. Jeffries > > > > Andros Is., Bahamas > > > > > > > > As scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the > > demand. > > > > -Josh Billings > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] > > On > > Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:32 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Interesting software > > > > > > > > Here is a link to an interesting piece of software that would enable > one > > to > > accurately measure a boat hull for the purposes of duplicating it or > even > > modeling your hull so you could build internal furniture that would > > actually > > > > fit properly in the hull. > > > > http://www.rhinophoto3d.com/index.php?option=com_content > > > > > > &Itemid=58> &view=article&id=50&Itemid=58 > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 19344|19316|2009-01-11 16:53:12|Aaron Williams|Re: furling project|Matt You could cut the slote with a table saw. Make a jig that you could clamp on the far end of the table that would guide the tube on both sides and also with a pin in the middle to keep the pipe slot from cork screwing while cutting. The picture shows the idea. I still have to make one myself. Aaron --- On Sun, 1/11/09, svfrolic wrote: From: svfrolic Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:33 PM Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick pipe is strong enough? I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own extrusion what might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. Matt --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. It is > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot and > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring blade on > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the point load > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people were > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a block > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > reliable and less prone to jamming. > Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19345|19345|2009-01-11 16:57:21|Aaron Williams|Fw: Re: [origamiboats] Re: furling project|The attach failed the first time? --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Aaron Williams wrote: From: Aaron Williams Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: furling project To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:53 PM Matt You could cut the slote with a table saw. Make a jig that you could clamp on the far end of the table that would guide the tube on both sides and also with a pin in the middle to keep the pipe slot from cork screwing while cutting. The picture shows the idea. I still have to make one myself. Aaron --- On Sun, 1/11/09, svfrolic wrote: From: svfrolic Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:33 PM Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick pipe is strong enough? I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own extrusion what might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. Matt --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. It is > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot and > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring blade on > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the point load > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people were > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a block > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > reliable and less prone to jamming. > Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19346|19304|2009-01-11 16:57:57|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Interesting software|Gord, I would expect the learning curve to be relatively easy. The Rhino Photo software manipulates imports the points automatically. Massaging them in Rhino can be learned in a few minutes. Once I get a little ahead with my Westlawn tuition, I was considering making a purchase. Looks like their web site is up and running once more. R/Jay Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas As scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. -Josh Billings From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Schnell Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 4:52 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Interesting software I have used Rhino 3D software. It's very powerful, but the learning curve is "steep". This looks like a very useful tool. Wonder what the "learning curve" would be. Thanks for the link. Gord . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19347|19339|2009-01-11 17:58:46|Tom Mann|Re: MBS|Hello Paul I have not followed it that close eather but from what I read on in the subject the original ones that started the MBS did not want the forum or the online store, wanted to keep it like it was in the begining. The MBS forum is still up and running but the online store is not and a few of the guys that were runnung the forum were afraid it would be shut down and lost so they started another one. I am sure there is two sides to it so I cant say for sure whats going on. Tom On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Tom, what were the problems with MBS? I haven't followed it that closely. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of Tom Mann > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:52 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] MBS > > > > Hello All > Anyone been following the MBS ? I guess they have been having problems > so some of the members started a new forum. > www.metalboatbuilding.org > > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19348|19215|2009-01-11 20:15:01|Jim Phillips|Re: Q!!!|Ha ha.  Facts can always be twisted.   The surface area of ice affects the amount of sunlight reflected back off the earth, but sea level changes are connected to ice volume (not surface area).  Check out the the changes to the VOLUME of ice in Antarctica.  Look for the link yourselves.  Make your own conclusions.   Then check out the links between the CO2 concentration and sea level changes over geological history and see which criteria follows which.  Geological history follows a relationship which is the exact opposite of what we are being fed by the mainstream media.   Then check out sunspot activity and average temperatures and make your own conclusions again.  Unfortunately this can only be done over a time frame of modern history, not geological history, but the relationship is very interesting nevertheless.   And then, PLEASE.........go for a f..ing sail and relax!!   Cheers, Jim.   --- On Fri, 9/1/09, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Q!!! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, 9 January, 2009, 7:08 PM How funny history starts in the fall of 1978 and leaves out the last 2 years. I expect you to be smarter then that. Jon --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 10:06:10PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > The part of history the AGW croud leaves out. > > http://www.athropol is.com/map9. htm > > The *actual* facts that right-wing fanatics always leave out: > > http://arctic. atmos.uiuc. edu/cryosphere/ ice.area. at.minimum. new.jpg > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19349|19304|2009-01-11 20:21:15|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Interesting software|Gordon, I used Rhino for about 6 years, and I started using it because I felt it had the least learning curve! Id don't use it now as I work with Solid Edge. Solid Edge isn't very good for things like boat hulls though. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Schnell" To: Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Interesting software >I have used Rhino 3D software. It's very powerful, but the learning > curve is "steep". This looks like a very useful tool. Wonder what the > "learning curve" would be. > Thanks for the link. > Gord > > > > Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> >> Jay, >> No I don't know anyone actually using. I saw it the Rhino newsgroup. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jay K. Jeffries" > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:22 AM >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Interesting software >> >> > Gary, >> > >> > Have been following this since it was beat? Do you know anyone who has >> > actually used it? Have just become an authorized Rhino trainer and was >> > considering including this as part of a training program for the marine >> > industry. >> > >> > R/Jay >> > >> > >> > >> > Respectfully, >> > >> > Jay K. Jeffries >> > >> > Andros Is., Bahamas >> > >> > >> > >> > As scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the >> > demand. >> > >> > -Josh Billings >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> ] >> > On >> > Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas >> > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:32 PM >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Interesting software >> > >> > >> > >> > Here is a link to an interesting piece of software that would enable >> one >> > to >> > accurately measure a boat hull for the purposes of duplicating it or >> even >> > modeling your hull so you could build internal furniture that would >> > actually >> > >> > fit properly in the hull. >> > >> > http://www.rhinophoto3d.com/index.php?option=com_content >> >> > >> > >> > &Itemid=58> &view=article&id=50&Itemid=58 >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> >> > > | 19350|19215|2009-01-11 21:22:27|jim_cl@yahoo.com|Re: Q!!!|Ha ha.  Facts can always be twisted.   The surface area of ice affects the amount of sunlight reflected back off the earth, but sea level changes are connected to ice volume (not surface area).  Check out the the changes to the VOLUME of ice in Antarctica.  Look for the link yourselves.  Make your own conclusions. Think.   Then check out the links between the CO2 concentration and sea level changes over geological history and see which change comes first.  Geological history follows a relationship which is the exact opposite of what we are being fed by the mainstream media.   Then check out sunspot activity and average temperatures and make your own conclusions again.  Unfortunately this can only be done over a time frame of modern history, not geological history, but the relationship is very interesting.   And then......... please, go for a f..ing sail and relax!!   Cheers, Jim.   PS. Well done, Jon, for not hurling any insults while expressing your opinions on the topic! Others could do the same. --- On Fri, 9/1/09, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Q!!! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, 9 January, 2009, 7:08 PM How funny history starts in the fall of 1978 and leaves out the last 2 years. I expect you to be smarter then that. Jon --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 10:06:10PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > The part of history the AGW croud leaves out. > > http://www.athropol is.com/map9. htm > > The *actual* facts that right-wing fanatics always leave out: > > http://arctic. atmos.uiuc. edu/cryosphere/ ice.area. at.minimum. new.jpg > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox | 19351|19316|2009-01-11 21:38:01|svfrolic|Re: furling project|Aaron I was thinking about either router or table saw. Thanks for the pin idea. I was going to clamp my pipe to the piece of wood and then cut the slot against the guide but the pin will definitely help. I think I will try this deburring tool and then sand it with some fine grid sand paper. What size pipe are you going to use? I will make some drawings before I start the project so I can better share some ideas:-) Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Matt > You could cut the slote with a table saw. Make a jig that you could clamp on the far end of the table that would guide the tube on both sides and also with a pin in the middle to keep the pipe slot from cork screwing while cutting. The picture shows the idea. > I still have to make one myself. > Aaron > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > From: svfrolic > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:33 PM > > > > > > > Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick pipe is > strong enough? > I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own extrusion what > might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. > > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. It is > > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot and > > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring blade on > > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the point load > > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people were > > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a block > > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > > reliable and less prone to jamming. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19352|19215|2009-01-11 21:48:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: Q!!!|On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 07:02:06AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Simply explain what you think is cause and effect that is > scientifically proven and include source of science that has passed > review of the greater science comunity. Jon, I neither have to nor feel any need to explain anything to you; you've failed to understand the simple concepts expressed in plain English that I've used here, and I certainly don't feel like trying to educate you. Your parents were supposed to take care of that. Your bizarre concept of "the greater science community" means that I'm supposed to listen to your ignorant crowd and their opinions about how things should be (according to their political slant) instead of how they actually are. _You_ are welcome to indulge in that kind of idiocy - I note that the KKK and the Nazis have always had their own "scientific research", and have always insisted that it must be taken into account - but I'll stick with research that deals with facts. You've already shown yourself to be a liar and an ignoramus: your "true solution" turned out to be nothing except your hot air, without the slightest shred of reality behind it. "Fusion-O-Matic like the DMC in Back to the Future", Jon? You have no true solutions; all you have are your hyper-conservative echo chamber talking points, with neither science nor sense behind them. > While you are at it read some > of the science reports and reviews in the IPCC vast collection. That > would not be just the ones that meet your end solution. This would be... the IPCC that you were just denigrating as being completely worthless? You're getting tangled up in your lies, Jon. > I find it interesting you always attack so > rudely Jon, I find no reason to be civil to you. You yourself said, early on, that you're not going to be civil - that your only purpose was to "wind up the Eco Fundamentalists". Fine, I'll stand up for the "Eco Fundamentalists" even though I don't know what the hell you mean - except that you want to attack anyone who is pro-environment (and boy, did *you* pick the wrong forum for that!) You have decided that the rules of civil discussion don't apply to you (winding someone up lies way outside the pale); as a result, you don't get to start whining about incivility shown you. Want civil discourse? Learn to control yourself, learn the rules of politeness, act civilized, and you'll have it. Fall short, and reap the rewards. So go ahead and keep winding, Jon. So far, you're the one who's getting all wound up and tangled in your own bullshit. Me, I'm happy to have a "straight man" - I've got a lot to say about how the world can be improved, and as long as you want to keep playing the stooge (think Lou Costello at his most panicked and twitchy - "AAAABOTT!!!"), I'll keep smacking you down. Anytime you decide that you've had enough of looking like a loser in front of everyone here in the forum, you're welcome to back off on attacking anyone pro-environment. > Feal free > to do your part for the reduction in overpopulation. Don't exspect me > to follow your example. [laugh] You just keep missing every time you take a potshot at me, Jon. I've got a 17-month-old son, and another baby on the way. Don't bother congratulating me, though; that would be like getting a manky, crumpled, vomit-covered dollar offered to me by a homeless bum. No chance of me accepting it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19353|19316|2009-01-11 21:49:59|Gary H. Lucas|Re: furling project|Matt, Are you aware that the torsion strength (ability to take twist) of a tube is GREATLY reduced when you run a slot down it? The whole purpose of using a tube over the headstay is because cable has almost no torsional strength itself. So getting a continuous tube with an extruded slot up one side would be far better I believe. Try cutting a slot up a piece of PVC pipe and see how easily it twists afterwards. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "svfrolic" To: Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:37 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project Aaron I was thinking about either router or table saw. Thanks for the pin idea. I was going to clamp my pipe to the piece of wood and then cut the slot against the guide but the pin will definitely help. I think I will try this deburring tool and then sand it with some fine grid sand paper. What size pipe are you going to use? I will make some drawings before I start the project so I can better share some ideas:-) Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Matt > You could cut the slote with a table saw. Make a jig that you could clamp on the far end of the table that would guide the tube on both sides and also with a pin in the middle to keep the pipe slot from cork screwing while cutting. The picture shows the idea. > I still have to make one myself. > Aaron > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > From: svfrolic > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:33 PM > > > > > > > Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick pipe is > strong enough? > I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own extrusion what > might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. > > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. It is > > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot and > > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring blade on > > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the point load > > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people were > > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a block > > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > > reliable and less prone to jamming. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19354|19215|2009-01-11 21:53:56|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Q!!!|Thank you to get angery only gives the other persons view inportance. I am glad he felt what I had to say was so inportant. I havent heard him say anthing that the Demacratic Socalist Party didn't say in leading sheep that can't think for themselfs to slauter. Little was learned on the communal living in the 60s and 70s. I feel for him but he is happy in the minority ohwell. Batteries may soon be out useing Nanotechnology to give them more surface area and ability to store more power. Supercapaciters are showing promise but have dangers to overcome. Jon Had a ex that when she lied herself into a corner would always spew "You don't have a F++king clue" like she did. > PS. Well done, Jon, for not hurling any insults while expressing your opinions on the topic! Others could do the same.| 19355|19215|2009-01-11 23:11:36|T & D Cain|Re: Q!!!|Anyone who wants to read an interesting paper "The cold facts about global warming" written by a professor of geology and geophysics, could supply a valid e-mail address. The paper is in .pdf format and sized at 185.55 kb. If this group is keen to understand this topic, a few facts won't hurt? Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Phillips Sent: Monday, 12 January 2009 10:45 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Q!!! Ha ha. Facts can always be twisted. The surface area of ice affects the amount of sunlight reflected back off the earth, but sea level changes are connected to ice volume (not surface area). Check out the the changes to the VOLUME of ice in Antarctica. Look for the link yourselves. Make your own conclusions. Then check out the links between the CO2 concentration and sea level changes over geological history and see which criteria follows which. Geological history follows a relationship which is the exact opposite of what we are being fed by the mainstream media. Then check out sunspot activity and average temperatures and make your own conclusions again. Unfortunately this can only be done over a time frame of modern history, not geological history, but the relationship is very interesting nevertheless. And then, PLEASE.........go for a f..ing sail and relax!! Cheers, Jim. --- On Fri, 9/1/09, Jon & Wanda(Tink) com> wrote: From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) com> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Q!!! To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, 9 January, 2009, 7:08 PM How funny history starts in the fall of 1978 and leaves out the last 2 years. I expect you to be smarter then that. Jon --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 10:06:10PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > The part of history the AGW croud leaves out. > > http://www.athropol is.com/map9. htm > > The *actual* facts that right-wing fanatics always leave out: > > http://arctic. atmos.uiuc. edu/cryosphere/ ice.area. at.minimum. new.jpg > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs. yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19356|19215|2009-01-11 23:52:49|Ben Okopnik|Re: Q!!!|On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 02:53:55AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Thank you to get angery only gives the other persons view inportance. There, there. Does pretending that someone somewhere thinks you're important give you comfort? Cockroaches that get stepped on must comfort themselves with the same "philosophy". "Someone thought I was important enough to step on - HURRAH!!!" > I feel for him but he is happy > in the minority ohwell. You right-wing fanatics lost the last election. Who's in the minority, again? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19357|19215|2009-01-12 01:03:55|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Q!!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 02:53:55AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > Thank you to get angery only gives the other persons view inportance. > > There, there. Does pretending that someone somewhere thinks you're > important give you comfort? Right over your head it went zoom. This was not about importance or comfort. It was about views and how people that have little fits show that the view is important. > > Cockroaches that get stepped on must comfort themselves with the same > "philosophy". "Someone thought I was important enough to step on - > HURRAH!!!" Regressed another year. > > > I feel for him but he is happy > > in the minority ohwell. > > You right-wing fanatics lost the last election. Who's in the minority, > again? > The statement is about view of mans role on in global warming not political affiliation. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Do you treat everyone who has a opinion differant then you this way or are you just racest towards American Indians. Jon Sheep: A animal that will stick its head through the fence eat all the grass on the other side and die being afraid to pull its head back out.| 19358|19215|2009-01-12 01:33:22|Ben Okopnik|Re: Q!!!|On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 06:03:52AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 02:53:55AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > Thank you to get angery only gives the other persons view > inportance. > > > > There, there. Does pretending that someone somewhere thinks you're > > important give you comfort? > > Right over your head it went zoom. No, actually you crawled under my shoe. > > > I feel for him but he is happy > > > in the minority ohwell. > > > > You right-wing fanatics lost the last election. Who's in the > minority, > > again? > > The statement is about view of mans role on in global warming not > political affiliation. No, this statement is about you and dinosaurs like you being the political dregs. Now we have _that_ clear, you can argue about whatever else you want - with someone else. Starting now, your foolish babble goes into my killfile for the next month; anything you say will go directly into the trashcan, where it belongs. > Do you treat everyone who has a opinion differant then you this way > or are you just racest towards American Indians. *Of course* this was about you being an American Indian! Every single post in this thread was full of me talking about you being... oh yeah, an ignoramus and a political dinosaur. Good luck trying to make those into racial insults. Speaking of which - you've had nothing to say all along, but you're really getting desperate if you've stooped so low as to play the race card. Isn't that what you right-wing freaks always accuse liberals of doing? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19359|19215|2009-01-12 02:57:07|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Q!!!|Now to get back to the real subject. One way to get heat from a wood stove and pipe it to where you want it is space a light gage sheet metale box around three sides and the bottom. Attach a tube to a higher point going where you want the heat. In the bottom of the box a small fan forcing air into the box creating circulation or at the end of the tube drawing air out. The top of the stove could still be used to heat water if a little bigger the the stove box. Jon| 19360|19316|2009-01-12 02:58:46|Aaron Williams|Re: furling project|After a quick review of Brent book It showes using 2 sections of 1/2" pipe welded together side by side with one of them having the slot cut in it. That being the case then there would be torsion twist to worry about as long as the welding is proper. Aaron --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: furling project To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 5:49 PM Matt, Are you aware that the torsion strength (ability to take twist) of a tube is GREATLY reduced when you run a slot down it? The whole purpose of using a tube over the headstay is because cable has almost no torsional strength itself. So getting a continuous tube with an extruded slot up one side would be far better I believe. Try cutting a slot up a piece of PVC pipe and see how easily it twists afterwards. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "svfrolic" To: Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:37 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project Aaron I was thinking about either router or table saw. Thanks for the pin idea. I was going to clamp my pipe to the piece of wood and then cut the slot against the guide but the pin will definitely help. I think I will try this deburring tool and then sand it with some fine grid sand paper. What size pipe are you going to use? I will make some drawings before I start the project so I can better share some ideas:-) Matt --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Matt > You could cut the slote with a table saw. Make a jig that you could clamp on the far end of the table that would guide the tube on both sides and also with a pin in the middle to keep the pipe slot from cork screwing while cutting. The picture shows the idea. > I still have to make one myself. > Aaron > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > From: svfrolic > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:33 PM > > > > > > > Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick pipe is > strong enough? > I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own extrusion what > might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. > > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. It is > > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot and > > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring blade on > > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the point load > > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people were > > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a block > > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > > reliable and less prone to jamming. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19361|19215|2009-01-12 09:15:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 10:03:53AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > I think that a sensible, progressive reduction in > > oil use can benefit all of us immediately, with greater and greater > > benefits as time goes on and more research into "green" energy comes in. > > I find it astounding that anyone outside of oil company execs and shills > > can even _think_ of arguing against this; it benefits everyone, in > > uncountable ways - including fewer reasons for going to war. > > I've actually been saying that for over 15 years now. It breaks the > strategic dependence on places like Saudi Arabia and other repressive > countries. Without oil revenues they drop back to being societies that > can't survive at 21C levels of technology and have close to zero > ability to export perversions like Wahabi creeds. Agreed. The fact that we _are_ throwing huge amounts of money to these primitive cultures in which violence is the first and preferred answer to everything, thus enabling them to bring that dynamic to the world stage, still astounds me. It is *the* number one resource that enables all the craziness in the Middle East, with predictable consequences elsewhere. > Don't know if you've ever come across them but reading Louis Burkhardt > and than Wilfred Thesiger in close succession (esp ALL of Thesiger's > books) will be an eye opener. I don't recall reading anything by Burkhardt, but I first ran across Thesiger about two years ago. Excellent, stark characterization of the Arab cultures by a man who grew up there, knew them intimately, and spent a large part of his life exploring the area. I don't recall exactly, but looking over Wikipedia's list of his books, I think it was "Crossing the Sands" that I read. I'll join you in recommending him to anyone who wants to understand the Middle East. > Personally I'm a proponent of nuclear power until we get something > better. I don't think it's the answer to everything, merely better > technology for producing baseload electricity than any of the other > methods. I don't know what the situation is on your side of the world, but in the US, that's not a viable answer. Several years ago, I taught a class in New Mexico in which all of the students were from Los Alamos (as I'm sure you're aware, that's our big nuke power research facility.) When I expressed a viewpoint similar to yours, they all shook their heads and told me that a) it's against current US law to start building a power plant, and b) if the law was repealed that day, it would take a minumum of 17 years (!) to complete one due to all the required inspections, permissions, etc. They were rather cheerful about that figure, by the way, since it had just been reduced from 21 years - someone found a loophole in the paperwork that would actually allow them to get something done. There's a dearth of political will in this country; the very thing that made America great, the drive of its people to go for the best despite all obstacles appears to have been crushed into the mud. Given the current culture of lawsuits for every stubbed toe on one side and a nanny government on the other, the average American has been "pacified" into being a sheep: easy meat for the politicians to chew and swallow, and a herd to be driven to useless wars, etc. I'm sorry if this opinion offends anyone... but I grieve for my country, and can only hope that it will somehow turn around. I hope that we still have the ability to do so. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19362|19316|2009-01-12 09:44:05|svfrolic|Re: furling project|I am aware of reduced torsion strength of the slotted pipe and this is my concern too but I remember Brent mentioned that some people use single 1 1/4 inch aluminum sch 40 pipe successfully. They weld ends to make it more resistant for twisting. I am a little afraid that a single pipe might have reduced ability to reef the jib in stronger breeze because of twisting so I am still thinking about other options like double pipe or just buying old extrusion from rigging shop or sailing consignment store. Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > After a quick review of Brent book It showes using 2 sections of 1/2" pipe welded together side by side with one of them having the slot cut in it. That being the case then there would be torsion twist to worry about as long as the welding is proper. > Aaron > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 5:49 PM > > > > > > > Matt, > Are you aware that the torsion strength (ability to take twist) of a tube is > GREATLY reduced when you run a slot down it? The whole purpose of using a > tube over the headstay is because cable has almost no torsional strength > itself. So getting a continuous tube with an extruded slot up one side > would be far better I believe. Try cutting a slot up a piece of PVC pipe > and see how easily it twists afterwards. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "svfrolic" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > Aaron > > I was thinking about either router or table saw. Thanks for the pin > idea. I was going to clamp my pipe to the piece of wood and then cut > the slot against the guide but the pin will definitely help. > I think I will try this deburring tool and then sand it with some fine > grid sand paper. > What size pipe are you going to use? > I will make some drawings before I start the project so I can better > share some ideas:-) > > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Matt > > You could cut the slote with a table saw. Make a jig that you could > clamp on the far end of the table that would guide the tube on both > sides and also with a pin in the middle to keep the pipe slot from > cork screwing while cutting. The picture shows the idea. > > I still have to make one myself. > > Aaron > > > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > > > > From: svfrolic > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:33 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick pipe is > > strong enough? > > I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own extrusion what > > might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. > > > > Matt > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" ...> > > wrote: > > > > > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. It is > > > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > > > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot and > > > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring blade on > > > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > > > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > > > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the point load > > > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > > > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people were > > > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > > > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a block > > > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > > > reliable and less prone to jamming. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19363|19316|2009-01-12 10:36:06|Aaron Williams|Re: furling project|Matt This from my  Alaska steel book 1/2" sch 40 weighs .294 lbs per foot and @ 40' =23.5 lbs  1" sch 40 weighs .581 lbs per foot and x 40' = 23.24. Then there is 1" sch 80 weighs .751 lbs per foot x 40 = 30.04 The extra work involved in the 1/2" will add some weight but will be the strongest. The 1" sch 40 will be the lightest and will still be stronger than just  a wire. Ether way you still need to split the pipe. If using 1/2" weld the 2 sections together then cut the slots. Aaron   --- On Mon, 1/12/09, svfrolic wrote: From: svfrolic Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 5:44 AM I am aware of reduced torsion strength of the slotted pipe and this is my concern too but I remember Brent mentioned that some people use single 1 1/4 inch aluminum sch 40 pipe successfully. They weld ends to make it more resistant for twisting. I am a little afraid that a single pipe might have reduced ability to reef the jib in stronger breeze because of twisting so I am still thinking about other options like double pipe or just buying old extrusion from rigging shop or sailing consignment store. Matt --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > After a quick review of Brent book It showes using 2 sections of 1/2" pipe welded together side by side with one of them having the slot cut in it. That being the case then there would be torsion twist to worry about as long as the welding is proper. > Aaron > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 5:49 PM > > > > > > > Matt, > Are you aware that the torsion strength (ability to take twist) of a tube is > GREATLY reduced when you run a slot down it? The whole purpose of using a > tube over the headstay is because cable has almost no torsional strength > itself. So getting a continuous tube with an extruded slot up one side > would be far better I believe. Try cutting a slot up a piece of PVC pipe > and see how easily it twists afterwards. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "svfrolic" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > Aaron > > I was thinking about either router or table saw. Thanks for the pin > idea. I was going to clamp my pipe to the piece of wood and then cut > the slot against the guide but the pin will definitely help. > I think I will try this deburring tool and then sand it with some fine > grid sand paper. > What size pipe are you going to use? > I will make some drawings before I start the project so I can better > share some ideas:-) > > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Matt > > You could cut the slote with a table saw. Make a jig that you could > clamp on the far end of the table that would guide the tube on both > sides and also with a pin in the middle to keep the pipe slot from > cork screwing while cutting. The picture shows the idea. > > I still have to make one myself. > > Aaron > > > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > > > > From: svfrolic > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:33 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick pipe is > > strong enough? > > I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own extrusion what > > might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. > > > > Matt > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" ...> > > wrote: > > > > > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. It is > > > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > > > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot and > > > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring blade on > > > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > > > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > > > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the point load > > > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > > > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people were > > > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > > > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a block > > > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > > > reliable and less prone to jamming. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19364|19364|2009-01-12 11:37:30|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|Alex, Brent and Mark, This is re the lost message mentioned yesterday entitled “Brent’s Wood Burning Stove” Please chime in guys Brent, it was a question re what material to use for running plumbing through a firebox to heat water, and what is rather strange is that Mark, his message below, obviously did see my message, he answered it. but am I the only person who did NOT see my msg about plumbing thru a fire box, heating water & moving heat? Alex, was there not something similar quite recently where some mesages got.....lost (or retrieved or traced back or something but the glitch got caught?) anyhoo, same thing happening here? Can you find it or should I re write it as I have a number of questions re this system that I think will be helpful to the group. Thanks! Mark, that was me who mentioned the Princess Auto pump. 604-777-0735 is their # right off the top, buy lotsa bits from them. they earn it. anyway, its a 12v pony pump, the8ir part No is 5771431 it does draw 7a which may be is a consideration for you being a big draw but I'm doing this ashore...it'l pump liquids 40-140oC. what.... 140oC....so it will handle antifreeze. they're on sale right now for $70. I bought 2. Its a backup system for me as I will be leaving a woodburner overnight unattended (no problem, we heat with wood & do it daily), but I don't want to fry out the pex heat exchanger setup i will be using for one of my heating circuits. on a boat you would probably need to go stailess for the heat excahnger. Ashore I'm useing this for heating & there are a lot of differences in the systems we need, and facilities that are easy ashore are often unknown luxuries afloat. but the basics are the same. all the basics are the same. if you have a big enough system you also have the built in safety of the limits of water. that is, it will heat to 100oC and then will need a proportoionatel BIG whach of energy before it will evaporate into steam. So just have a resurvoir that is big enough that there is no chance of boiling off all the water with one load of wood. No problem for me but for you maybe you size the fire box smqaller because you now have a method of storing the heat for a bit.. bit more effient. If the sizing of that is not feasable, you might go with a heat exchanger that is not as effient. an example might be plumbing running directly throught the fire box as I am going to do, as opposed to havign a coil of copper around the chimney, not recommended as aside from being very innefiect, but it might be dangerous as it may cool the stack so much as to condense creasote onto it & be a fire hazard. but you could use the same principle of using a less effient heat exahcnger and build safety into the system. I plan to run my sustem comperably cool, reduces the risk & more temperature range available for backup or even a 2nd backup. they are cheap enough & it'd help me sleep at night Met a guy who had a tiny little wood burner in a camper, plumbd it under all floors & bunks & a wee bit of a pump. was quite impressive. at the same time I don't imagine he;d be leaving a fire in it un-attended Oh ya, Mark, whether your losing your mind or not I don’t know, always the possibility I suppose, but no, this ain’t it. Please let me know when you saw my message and how you got confused as to whether you saw it or not Cheers, Shane Posted by: "mark hamill" mhamill1@... sunbearone Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:17 pm (PST) I must being going out of my mind. Did somebody recently say that they used a tank and pump which they purchased from Princess Auto to circulate the hot water to radiators when it got to the right temp? If so could you kindly indicate a name or part # for the pump and what temp sensor part # or type and perhaps the type and size of hose and the radiators type. I like Brents idea for the 2" duct but I need to get heat to the ends of my present boat (a cat) and don't necessarily want to put in a second stove--although that might be more on the KISS side and perhaps add some greater flexibility. Running a duct up from the floor really does help to move the air about espcially with a fan (uninsulated boat). Before I installed the same idea it would be 110* at my head and 32* F at my feet with an impenetrable thermal layer just below my waist. I think this might be of interest to a number of boaters. Regarding SS tubing for inside the firebox I worked in a Heat Exchanger plant in my youth and they used SS tubes That were bent in 2 to 1 foot arcs. In order to prevent them from collapsing they filled the bends with lead slugs and then melted the lead out. So I don't know how practical tight radius bends would be to make? Markh __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 19365|19365|2009-01-12 18:40:22|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Interesting read|For those totaly sold on AGW this could be a interesting read of contradictions in the consensus. http://www.quadrant.org.au/magazine/issue/2009/1-2/the-contradictions- of-the-garnaut-report Jon| 19366|19364|2009-01-12 18:42:36|brentswain38|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|Stainless boiler tubing is readily available in scrapyards and is made for that use. If there is a rise in the tube inside the stove and its let in the top of the tank ,and taken out of the bottom, natural convection makes a pump unneccesary. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Alex, Brent and Mark, > > This is re the lost message mentioned yesterday entitled “Brent’s Wood Burning Stove” > > Please chime in guys > > Brent, it was a question re what material to use for running plumbing through a firebox to heat water, and what is rather strange is that Mark, his message below, obviously did see my message, he answered it. but am I the only person who did NOT see my msg about plumbing thru a fire box, heating water & moving heat? > > Alex, was there not something similar quite recently where some mesages got.....lost (or retrieved or traced back or something but the glitch got caught?) anyhoo, same thing happening here? Can you find it or should I re write it as I have a number of questions re this system that I think will be helpful to the group. Thanks! > > > > Mark, that was me who mentioned the Princess Auto pump. 604-777-0735 is their # right off the top, buy lotsa bits from them. they earn it. anyway, its a 12v pony pump, the8ir part No is 5771431 > it does draw 7a which may be is a consideration for you being a big draw but I'm doing this ashore...it'l pump liquids 40-140oC. what.... 140oC....so it will handle antifreeze. they're on sale right now for $70. I bought 2. Its a backup system for me as I will be leaving a woodburner overnight unattended (no problem, we heat with wood & do it daily), but I don't want to fry out the pex heat exchanger setup i will be using for one of my heating circuits. on a boat you would probably need to go stailess for the heat excahnger. > > Ashore I'm useing this for heating & there are a lot of differences in the systems we need, and facilities that are easy ashore are often unknown luxuries afloat. but the basics are the same. all the basics are the same. > > > if you have a big enough system you also have the built in safety of the limits of water. that is, it will heat to 100oC and then will need a proportoionatel BIG whach of energy before it will evaporate into steam. So just have a resurvoir that is big enough that there is no chance of boiling off all the water with one load of wood. No problem for me but for you maybe you size the fire box smqaller because you now have a method of storing the heat for a bit.. bit more effient. If the sizing of that is not feasable, you might go with a heat exchanger that is not as effient. an example might be plumbing running directly throught the fire box as I am going to do, as opposed to havign a coil of copper around the chimney, not recommended as aside from being very innefiect, but it might be dangerous as it may cool the stack so much as to condense creasote onto it & be a fire hazard. but you could use the same principle of using a less effient heat exahcnger > and build safety into the system. > > I plan to run my sustem comperably cool, reduces the risk & more temperature range available for backup or even a 2nd backup. they are cheap enough & it'd help me sleep at night > > Met a guy who had a tiny little wood burner in a camper, plumbd it under all floors & bunks & a wee bit of a pump. was quite impressive. at the same time I don't imagine he;d be leaving a fire in it un-attended > > Oh ya, Mark, whether your losing your mind or not I don’t know, always the possibility I suppose, but no, this ain’t it. Please let me know when you saw my message and how you got confused as to whether you saw it or not > > > Cheers, > Shane > > > > Posted by: "mark hamill" mhamill1@... sunbearone > Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:17 pm (PST) > I must being going out of my mind. > Did somebody recently say that they used a tank and pump which they purchased from > Princess Auto to circulate the hot water to radiators when it got to the right temp? If so could > you kindly indicate a name or part # for the pump and what temp sensor part # or type and > perhaps the type and size of hose and the radiators type. > I like Brents idea for the 2" duct but I need to get heat to the ends of my present boat (a cat) > and don't necessarily want to put in a second stove--although that might be more on the > KISS side and perhaps add some greater flexibility. Running a duct up from the floor really > does help to move the air about espcially with a fan (uninsulated boat). Before I installed the > same idea it would be 110* at my head and 32* F at my feet with an impenetrable thermal > layer just below my waist. I think this might be of interest to a number of boaters. > Regarding SS tubing for inside the firebox I worked in a Heat Exchanger plant in my youth > and they used SS tubes That were bent in 2 to 1 foot arcs. In order to prevent them from > collapsing they filled the bends with lead slugs and then melted the lead out. So I don't know > how practical tight radius bends would be to make? > Markh > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > | 19367|19316|2009-01-12 18:46:10|brentswain38|Re: furling project|Welding the last two inches of the slot shut, drasticaly reduces the twisting of the pipe to where it is almost as stiff as an unslotted pipe, and then twisting won't be a problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Matt > This from my Alaska steel book 1/2" sch 40 weighs .294 lbs per foot and @ 40' =23.5 lbs 1" sch 40 weighs .581 lbs per foot and x 40' = 23.24. Then there is 1" sch 80 weighs .751 lbs per foot x 40 = 30.04 > The extra work involved in the 1/2" will add some weight but will be the strongest. The 1" sch 40 will be the lightest and will still be stronger than just a wire. > Ether way you still need to split the pipe. If using 1/2" weld the 2 sections together then cut the slots. > Aaron > > > --- On Mon, 1/12/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > From: svfrolic > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 5:44 AM > > > > > > > I am aware of reduced torsion strength of the slotted pipe and this > is my concern too but I remember Brent mentioned that some people use > single 1 1/4 inch aluminum sch 40 pipe successfully. They weld ends > to make it more resistant for twisting. > I am a little afraid that a single pipe might have reduced ability to > reef the jib in stronger breeze because of twisting so I am still > thinking about other options like double pipe or just buying old > extrusion from rigging shop or sailing consignment store. > > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams > wrote: > > > > After a quick review of Brent book It showes using 2 sections of > 1/2" pipe welded together side by side with one of them having the > slot cut in it. That being the case then there would be torsion twist > to worry about as long as the welding is proper. > > Aaron > > > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 5:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, > > Are you aware that the torsion strength (ability to take twist) of > a tube is > > GREATLY reduced when you run a slot down it? The whole purpose of > using a > > tube over the headstay is because cable has almost no torsional > strength > > itself. So getting a continuous tube with an extruded slot up one > side > > would be far better I believe. Try cutting a slot up a piece of PVC > pipe > > and see how easily it twists afterwards. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "svfrolic" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:37 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > > > Aaron > > > > I was thinking about either router or table saw. Thanks for the pin > > idea. I was going to clamp my pipe to the piece of wood and then cut > > the slot against the guide but the pin will definitely help. > > I think I will try this deburring tool and then sand it with some > fine > > grid sand paper. > > What size pipe are you going to use? > > I will make some drawings before I start the project so I can better > > share some ideas:-) > > > > Matt > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams > wrote: > > > > > > Matt > > > You could cut the slote with a table saw. Make a jig that you > could > > clamp on the far end of the table that would guide the tube on both > > sides and also with a pin in the middle to keep the pipe slot from > > cork screwing while cutting. The picture shows the idea. > > > I still have to make one myself. > > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: svfrolic > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:33 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick > pipe is > > > strong enough? > > > I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own > extrusion what > > > might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > ...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. > It is > > > > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > > > > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot > and > > > > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring > blade on > > > > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > > > > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > > > > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the > point load > > > > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > > > > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people > were > > > > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > > > > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a > block > > > > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > > > > reliable and less prone to jamming. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19368|19295|2009-01-12 18:50:17|brentswain38|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|Our Consitutional rights under the Charter of rights have been far more strongly upheld by the courts than yours have been recently. However , if they fail , many vis ctims will simply make alifetime hobby out of causing the harbour nazis all the grief we a can come up with, any way we can. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Well Good Luck with that one Brent, seems they are following suit of whats > going on down here in California, Been getting worse every year. Seems to me > the only way we have some of the rights we should have and did have is to > pay. Ticks me off to no end . My small boat is not in the water anymore > because of it. Maina wanted $300,000 liability with them listed as > benafishery, could not be on the lake after dark along with a long list of > what you cant do. I think all the coastal harbors are as you describe short > term avchorage if that even. > Tom > > On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 2:34 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are > > allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for uninsured > > boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to pay > > their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our lifestyle, > > to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights > > under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to > > persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance industry > > dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or who > > may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood > > under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in > > Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore acomodation > > for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the right > > of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing thru. > > Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving > > thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the > > area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). > > All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should > > email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or not. > > They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I > > think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living > > outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread to > > other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme > > established as the norm. > > Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the > > interests of the real estate industry. > > Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all > > consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not stopping > > there, so they will get the message clearly. > > Brent > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19369|19316|2009-01-12 18:51:35|brentswain38|Re: furling project|Yes , it's been plenty strong enough, far stronger than commercially made furlers. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svfrolic" wrote: > > Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick pipe is > strong enough? > I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own extrusion what > might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. > > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. It is > > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot and > > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring blade on > > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the point load > > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people were > > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a block > > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > > reliable and less prone to jamming. > > Brent > | 19370|19316|2009-01-12 18:57:00|brentswain38|Re: furling project|Be careful using either to not get the slot twisting around the furler. Having extra help keeping it straight and putting a felt pen mark on the top makes it easier to keep track of which way the slot is facing. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svfrolic" wrote: > > Aaron > > I was thinking about either router or table saw. Thanks for the pin > idea. I was going to clamp my pipe to the piece of wood and then cut > the slot against the guide but the pin will definitely help. > I think I will try this deburring tool and then sand it with some fine > grid sand paper. > What size pipe are you going to use? > I will make some drawings before I start the project so I can better > share some ideas:-) > > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Matt > > You could cut the slote with a table saw. Make a jig that you could > clamp on the far end of the table that would guide the tube on both > sides and also with a pin in the middle to keep the pipe slot from > cork screwing while cutting. The picture shows the idea. > > I still have to make one myself. > > Aaron > > > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > > > > From: svfrolic > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:33 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick pipe is > > strong enough? > > I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own extrusion what > > might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. > > > > Matt > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" ...> > > wrote: > > > > > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. It is > > > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > > > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot and > > > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring blade on > > > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > > > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > > > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the point load > > > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > > > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people were > > > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > > > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a block > > > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > > > reliable and less prone to jamming. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19371|19365|2009-01-12 19:12:38|T & D Cain|Re: Interesting read|Jon, the link was truncated and so would not work as posted. That article can be accessed either by the full link: http://www.quadrant.org.au/magazine/issue/2009/1-2/the-contradictions-of-the -garnaut-report Or by http://www.quadrant.org.au/magazine/issue/2009/1-2/ Then use the contents listed. BTW, no takers on the Professor Ian Plimer's paper!!! Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 09:10 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Interesting read [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19372|19364|2009-01-12 19:35:55|mark hamill|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|Thanks Shane and Brent. Brent: Is that boiler tubing hard to bend I remember it being quite thick walled?? Speaking of convection when I was in the Boy Scouts (about the time dirt first started to appear on the planet) our scoutmaster (Og I think he was called) made a hot water heater out of a 5 gallon pail wilth tubing at the bottom and exiting at the top which was placed in the fire. The boiling water really belched out the top. Shane: Regarding when I saw the message it was last week sometime--but seemed to dissappear and a search produced nothing. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 3:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove Stainless boiler tubing is readily available in scrapyards and is made for that use. If there is a rise in the tube inside the stove and its let in the top of the tank ,and taken out of the bottom, natural convection makes a pump unneccesary. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Alex, Brent and Mark, > > This is re the lost message mentioned yesterday entitled â?oBrentâ?Ts Wood Burning Stoveâ? > > Please chime in guys > > Brent, it was a question re what material to use for running plumbing through a firebox to heat water, and what is rather strange is that Mark, his message below, obviously did see my message, he answered it. but am I the only person who did NOT see my msg about plumbing thru a fire box, heating water & moving heat? > > Alex, was there not something similar quite recently where some mesages got.....lost (or retrieved or traced back or something but the glitch got caught?) anyhoo, same thing happening here? Can you find it or should I re write it as I have a number of questions re this system that I think will be helpful to the group. Thanks! > > > > Mark, that was me who mentioned the Princess Auto pump. 604-777-0735 is their # right off the top, buy lotsa bits from them. they earn it. anyway, its a 12v pony pump, the8ir part No is 5771431 > it does draw 7a which may be is a consideration for you being a big draw but I'm doing this ashore...it'l pump liquids 40-140oC. what.... 140oC....so it will handle antifreeze. they're on sale right now for $70. I bought 2. Its a backup system for me as I will be leaving a woodburner overnight unattended (no problem, we heat with wood & do it daily), but I don't want to fry out the pex heat exchanger setup i will be using for one of my heating circuits. on a boat you would probably need to go stailess for the heat excahnger. > > Ashore I'm useing this for heating & there are a lot of differences in the systems we need, and facilities that are easy ashore are often unknown luxuries afloat. but the basics are the same. all the basics are the same. > > > if you have a big enough system you also have the built in safety of the limits of water. that is, it will heat to 100oC and then will need a proportoionatel BIG whach of energy before it will evaporate into steam. So just have a resurvoir that is big enough that there is no chance of boiling off all the water with one load of wood. No problem for me but for you maybe you size the fire box smqaller because you now have a method of storing the heat for a bit.. bit more effient. If the sizing of that is not feasable, you might go with a heat exchanger that is not as effient. an example might be plumbing running directly throught the fire box as I am going to do, as opposed to havign a coil of copper around the chimney, not recommended as aside from being very innefiect, but it might be dangerous as it may cool the stack so much as to condense creasote onto it & be a fire hazard. but you could use the same principle of using a less effient heat exahcnger > and build safety into the system. > > I plan to run my sustem comperably cool, reduces the risk & more temperature range available for backup or even a 2nd backup. they are cheap enough & it'd help me sleep at night > > Met a guy who had a tiny little wood burner in a camper, plumbd it under all floors & bunks & a wee bit of a pump. was quite impressive. at the same time I don't imagine he;d be leaving a fire in it un-attended > > Oh ya, Mark, whether your losing your mind or not I donâ?Tt know, always the possibility I suppose, but no, this ainâ?Tt it. Please let me know when you saw my message and how you got confused as to whether you saw it or not > > > Cheers, > Shane > > > > Posted by: "mark hamill" mhamill1@... sunbearone > Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:17 pm (PST) > I must being going out of my mind. > Did somebody recently say that they used a tank and pump which they purchased from > Princess Auto to circulate the hot water to radiators when it got to the right temp? If so could > you kindly indicate a name or part # for the pump and what temp sensor part # or type and > perhaps the type and size of hose and the radiators type. > I like Brents idea for the 2" duct but I need to get heat to the ends of my present boat (a cat) > and don't necessarily want to put in a second stove--although that might be more on the > KISS side and perhaps add some greater flexibility. Running a duct up from the floor really > does help to move the air about espcially with a fan (uninsulated boat). Before I installed the > same idea it would be 110* at my head and 32* F at my feet with an impenetrable thermal > layer just below my waist. I think this might be of interest to a number of boaters. > Regarding SS tubing for inside the firebox I worked in a Heat Exchanger plant in my youth > and they used SS tubes That were bent in 2 to 1 foot arcs. In order to prevent them from > collapsing they filled the bends with lead slugs and then melted the lead out. So I don't know > how practical tight radius bends would be to make? > Markh > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19373|19316|2009-01-12 20:12:38|svfrolic|Re: furling project|Sounds so good that it is worth to try. I think if I cut slot myself I can get the same result if I leave ends of the pipe intact. I don't risk a lot, in the worst case scenario I would need just replace the extrusion. Do you think 1 1/4" sch 40 would be sufficient for the job or maybe it is to much(I have a small 30' sailboat so the jib will not be bigger than 20 sq. m)? Thanks again, Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Welding the last two inches of the slot shut, drasticaly reduces the > twisting of the pipe to where it is almost as stiff as an unslotted > pipe, and then twisting won't be a problem. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Matt > > This from my Alaska steel book 1/2" sch 40 weighs .294 lbs per > foot and @ 40' =23.5 lbs 1" sch 40 weighs .581 lbs per foot and x 40' > = 23.24. Then there is 1" sch 80 weighs .751 lbs per foot x 40 = 30.04 > > The extra work involved in the 1/2" will add some weight but will be > the strongest. The 1" sch 40 will be the lightest and will still be > stronger than just a wire. > > Ether way you still need to split the pipe. If using 1/2" weld the 2 > sections together then cut the slots. > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/12/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > > > > From: svfrolic > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 5:44 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am aware of reduced torsion strength of the slotted pipe and this > > is my concern too but I remember Brent mentioned that some people use > > single 1 1/4 inch aluminum sch 40 pipe successfully. They weld ends > > to make it more resistant for twisting. > > I am a little afraid that a single pipe might have reduced ability to > > reef the jib in stronger breeze because of twisting so I am still > > thinking about other options like double pipe or just buying old > > extrusion from rigging shop or sailing consignment store. > > > > Matt > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams > > wrote: > > > > > > After a quick review of Brent book It showes using 2 sections of > > 1/2" pipe welded together side by side with one of them having the > > slot cut in it. That being the case then there would be torsion twist > > to worry about as long as the welding is proper. > > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 5:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, > > > Are you aware that the torsion strength (ability to take twist) of > > a tube is > > > GREATLY reduced when you run a slot down it? The whole purpose of > > using a > > > tube over the headstay is because cable has almost no torsional > > strength > > > itself. So getting a continuous tube with an extruded slot up one > > side > > > would be far better I believe. Try cutting a slot up a piece of PVC > > pipe > > > and see how easily it twists afterwards. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "svfrolic" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:37 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > > > > > Aaron > > > > > > I was thinking about either router or table saw. Thanks for the pin > > > idea. I was going to clamp my pipe to the piece of wood and then cut > > > the slot against the guide but the pin will definitely help. > > > I think I will try this deburring tool and then sand it with some > > fine > > > grid sand paper. > > > What size pipe are you going to use? > > > I will make some drawings before I start the project so I can better > > > share some ideas:-) > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > You could cut the slote with a table saw. Make a jig that you > > could > > > clamp on the far end of the table that would guide the tube on both > > > sides and also with a pin in the middle to keep the pipe slot from > > > cork screwing while cutting. The picture shows the idea. > > > > I still have to make one myself. > > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: svfrolic > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:33 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick > > pipe is > > > > strong enough? > > > > I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own > > extrusion what > > > > might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > > > ...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. > > It is > > > > > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > > > > > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot > > and > > > > > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring > > blade on > > > > > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > > > > > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > > > > > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the > > point load > > > > > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > > > > > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people > > were > > > > > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > > > > > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a > > block > > > > > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > > > > > reliable and less prone to jamming. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19374|19365|2009-01-12 20:17:45|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Interesting read|Try here and the post for 12,Jan http://www.nzclimatescience.org/ Jon| 19375|19364|2009-01-12 20:21:22|brentswain38|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|It is thin walled, so hard to bend without kinking. Weld elbows can be found , or it can be cut and welded together on a 45 Degree ends. The flow is slow so a couple of elbows won't matter. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Thanks Shane and Brent. > Brent: Is that boiler tubing hard to bend I remember it being quite thick walled?? Speaking of convection when I was in the Boy Scouts (about the time dirt first started to appear on the planet) our scoutmaster (Og I think he was called) made a hot water heater out of a 5 gallon pail wilth tubing at the bottom and exiting at the top which was placed in the fire. The boiling water really belched out the top. > > Shane: Regarding when I saw the message it was last week sometime--but seemed to dissappear and a search produced nothing. > > Mark > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 3:42 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove > > > Stainless boiler tubing is readily available in scrapyards and is made > for that use. If there is a rise in the tube inside the stove and its > let in the top of the tank ,and taken out of the bottom, natural > convection makes a pump unneccesary. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Alex, Brent and Mark, > > > > This is re the lost message mentioned yesterday entitled > â?oBrentâ?Ts Wood Burning Stoveâ? > > > > Please chime in guys > > > > Brent, it was a question re what material to use for running > plumbing through a firebox to heat water, and what is rather strange > is that Mark, his message below, obviously did see my message, he > answered it. but am I the only person who did NOT see my msg about > plumbing thru a fire box, heating water & moving heat? > > > > Alex, was there not something similar quite recently where some > mesages got.....lost (or retrieved or traced back or something but the > glitch got caught?) anyhoo, same thing happening here? Can you find it > or should I re write it as I have a number of questions re this system > that I think will be helpful to the group. Thanks! > > > > > > > > Mark, that was me who mentioned the Princess Auto pump. 604-777-0735 > is their # right off the top, buy lotsa bits from them. they earn it. > anyway, its a 12v pony pump, the8ir part No is 5771431 > > it does draw 7a which may be is a consideration for you being a big > draw but I'm doing this ashore...it'l pump liquids 40-140oC. what.... > 140oC....so it will handle antifreeze. they're on sale right now for > $70. I bought 2. Its a backup system for me as I will be leaving a > woodburner overnight unattended (no problem, we heat with wood & do it > daily), but I don't want to fry out the pex heat exchanger setup i > will be using for one of my heating circuits. on a boat you would > probably need to go stailess for the heat excahnger. > > > > Ashore I'm useing this for heating & there are a lot of differences > in the systems we need, and facilities that are easy ashore are often > unknown luxuries afloat. but the basics are the same. all the basics > are the same. > > > > > > if you have a big enough system you also have the built in safety > of the limits of water. that is, it will heat to 100oC and then will > need a proportoionatel BIG whach of energy before it will evaporate > into steam. So just have a resurvoir that is big enough that there is > no chance of boiling off all the water with one load of wood. No > problem for me but for you maybe you size the fire box smqaller > because you now have a method of storing the heat for a bit.. bit more > effient. If the sizing of that is not feasable, you might go with a > heat exchanger that is not as effient. an example might be plumbing > running directly throught the fire box as I am going to do, as opposed > to havign a coil of copper around the chimney, not recommended as > aside from being very innefiect, but it might be dangerous as it may > cool the stack so much as to condense creasote onto it & be a fire > hazard. but you could use the same principle of using a less effient > heat exahcnger > > and build safety into the system. > > > > I plan to run my sustem comperably cool, reduces the risk & more > temperature range available for backup or even a 2nd backup. they are > cheap enough & it'd help me sleep at night > > > > Met a guy who had a tiny little wood burner in a camper, plumbd it > under all floors & bunks & a wee bit of a pump. was quite impressive. > at the same time I don't imagine he;d be leaving a fire in it > un-attended > > > > Oh ya, Mark, whether your losing your mind or not I donâ?Tt know, > always the possibility I suppose, but no, this ainâ?Tt it. Please let > me know when you saw my message and how you got confused as to whether > you saw it or not > > > > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > > > > > > Posted by: "mark hamill" mhamill1@ sunbearone > > Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:17 pm (PST) > > I must being going out of my mind. > > Did somebody recently say that they used a tank and pump which they > purchased from > > Princess Auto to circulate the hot water to radiators when it got to > the right temp? If so could > > you kindly indicate a name or part # for the pump and what temp > sensor part # or type and > > perhaps the type and size of hose and the radiators type. > > I like Brents idea for the 2" duct but I need to get heat to the > ends of my present boat (a cat) > > and don't necessarily want to put in a second stove--although that > might be more on the > > KISS side and perhaps add some greater flexibility. Running a duct > up from the floor really > > does help to move the air about espcially with a fan (uninsulated > boat). Before I installed the > > same idea it would be 110* at my head and 32* F at my feet with an > impenetrable thermal > > layer just below my waist. I think this might be of interest to a > number of boaters. > > Regarding SS tubing for inside the firebox I worked in a Heat > Exchanger plant in my youth > > and they used SS tubes That were bent in 2 to 1 foot arcs. In order > to prevent them from > > collapsing they filled the bends with lead slugs and then melted the > lead out. So I don't know > > how practical tight radius bends would be to make? > > Markh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark > your favourite sites. Download it now at > > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19376|19316|2009-01-12 20:59:57|svfrolic|Re: furling project|Sorry, I didn't noticed that you have answered my question about pipe size. Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Welding the last two inches of the slot shut, drasticaly reduces the > twisting of the pipe to where it is almost as stiff as an unslotted > pipe, and then twisting won't be a problem. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Matt > > This from my Alaska steel book 1/2" sch 40 weighs .294 lbs per > foot and @ 40' =23.5 lbs 1" sch 40 weighs .581 lbs per foot and x 40' > = 23.24. Then there is 1" sch 80 weighs .751 lbs per foot x 40 = 30.04 > > The extra work involved in the 1/2" will add some weight but will be > the strongest. The 1" sch 40 will be the lightest and will still be > stronger than just a wire. > > Ether way you still need to split the pipe. If using 1/2" weld the 2 > sections together then cut the slots. > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/12/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > > > > From: svfrolic > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 5:44 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am aware of reduced torsion strength of the slotted pipe and this > > is my concern too but I remember Brent mentioned that some people use > > single 1 1/4 inch aluminum sch 40 pipe successfully. They weld ends > > to make it more resistant for twisting. > > I am a little afraid that a single pipe might have reduced ability to > > reef the jib in stronger breeze because of twisting so I am still > > thinking about other options like double pipe or just buying old > > extrusion from rigging shop or sailing consignment store. > > > > Matt > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams > > wrote: > > > > > > After a quick review of Brent book It showes using 2 sections of > > 1/2" pipe welded together side by side with one of them having the > > slot cut in it. That being the case then there would be torsion twist > > to worry about as long as the welding is proper. > > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 5:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, > > > Are you aware that the torsion strength (ability to take twist) of > > a tube is > > > GREATLY reduced when you run a slot down it? The whole purpose of > > using a > > > tube over the headstay is because cable has almost no torsional > > strength > > > itself. So getting a continuous tube with an extruded slot up one > > side > > > would be far better I believe. Try cutting a slot up a piece of PVC > > pipe > > > and see how easily it twists afterwards. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "svfrolic" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:37 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > > > > > Aaron > > > > > > I was thinking about either router or table saw. Thanks for the pin > > > idea. I was going to clamp my pipe to the piece of wood and then cut > > > the slot against the guide but the pin will definitely help. > > > I think I will try this deburring tool and then sand it with some > > fine > > > grid sand paper. > > > What size pipe are you going to use? > > > I will make some drawings before I start the project so I can better > > > share some ideas:-) > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > You could cut the slote with a table saw. Make a jig that you > > could > > > clamp on the far end of the table that would guide the tube on both > > > sides and also with a pin in the middle to keep the pipe slot from > > > cork screwing while cutting. The picture shows the idea. > > > > I still have to make one myself. > > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, svfrolic wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: svfrolic > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: furling project > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 12:33 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the advice. Do you think that 1 1/4", 1/8 thick > > pipe is > > > > strong enough? > > > > I will try to contact AJ Forsyth but I might make my own > > extrusion what > > > > might be cheaper than freighting 20' pipe from BC to MD. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > > > ...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > AJ forsyth in Campbell River has the pipe with the slot in it. > > It is > > > > > used for the bolt ropes on awnings. > > > > > A friend had a deburring tool that you could pull thru a slot > > and > > > > > round the corner off easily. It was a handle with a deburring > > blade on > > > > > the end , from Lee Valley Tools, for around $15. > > > > > With the luff fully supported by the luff rope in the slot, the > > > > > halyard on a furler is very lightly loaded compared to the > > point load > > > > > of hanks supporting the sail only every couple of feet. > > > > > A friend, who worked in a riggers shop, said a lot of people > > were > > > > > giving up on the swivel halyard hoist that most commercialy made > > > > > furlers use, that enable you to use a regular halyard, for a > > block > > > > > on the side of the extrusion, as the simple block was far more > > > > > reliable and less prone to jamming. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19377|19215|2009-01-13 03:24:49|peter_d_wiley|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 10:03:53AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > I think that a sensible, progressive reduction in > > > oil use can benefit all of us immediately, with greater and greater > > > benefits as time goes on and more research into "green" energy comes in. > > > I find it astounding that anyone outside of oil company execs and shills > > > can even _think_ of arguing against this; it benefits everyone, in > > > uncountable ways - including fewer reasons for going to war. > > > > I've actually been saying that for over 15 years now. It breaks the > > strategic dependence on places like Saudi Arabia and other repressive > > countries. Without oil revenues they drop back to being societies that > > can't survive at 21C levels of technology and have close to zero > > ability to export perversions like Wahabi creeds. > > Agreed. The fact that we _are_ throwing huge amounts of money to these > primitive cultures in which violence is the first and preferred answer > to everything, thus enabling them to bring that dynamic to the world > stage, still astounds me. It is *the* number one resource that enables > all the craziness in the Middle East, with predictable consequences > elsewhere. > > > Don't know if you've ever come across them but reading Louis Burkhardt > > and than Wilfred Thesiger in close succession (esp ALL of Thesiger's > > books) will be an eye opener. > > I don't recall reading anything by Burkhardt, Burkhardt predated Thesiger by about 100 years - he was in what is now Saudi Arabia around 1812 IIRC. First European to get to Mecca I think. The interesting part is, how little attitudes have changed. but I first ran across > Thesiger about two years ago. Excellent, stark characterization of the > Arab cultures by a man who grew up there, knew them intimately, and > spent a large part of his life exploring the area. I don't recall > exactly, but looking over Wikipedia's list of his books, I think it was > "Crossing the Sands" that I read. I'll join you in recommending him to > anyone who wants to understand the Middle East. 'The Marsh Arabs' is a great read. It's a pity your leadership didn't read and understand it BEFORE invading Iraq. > > > Personally I'm a proponent of nuclear power until we get something > > better. I don't think it's the answer to everything, merely better > > technology for producing baseload electricity than any of the other > > methods. > > I don't know what the situation is on your side of the world, but in the > US, that's not a viable answer. Not YET, no. Several years ago, I taught a class in > New Mexico in which all of the students were from Los Alamos (as I'm > sure you're aware, that's our big nuke power research facility.) When I > expressed a viewpoint similar to yours, they all shook their heads and > told me that a) it's against current US law to start building a power > plant, and b) if the law was repealed that day, it would take a minumum > of 17 years (!) to complete one due to all the required inspections, > permissions, etc. They were rather cheerful about that figure, by the > way, since it had just been reduced from 21 years - someone found a > loophole in the paperwork that would actually allow them to get > something done. > > There's a dearth of political will in this country; the very thing that > made America great, the drive of its people to go for the best despite > all obstacles appears to have been crushed into the mud. Given the > current culture of lawsuits for every stubbed toe on one side and a > nanny government on the other, the average American has been "pacified" > into being a sheep: easy meat for the politicians to chew and swallow, > and a herd to be driven to useless wars, etc. I'm sorry if this opinion > offends anyone... but I grieve for my country, and can only hope that it > will somehow turn around. I hope that we still have the ability to do > so. I lived in AZ for a while. We all used to laugh at the Cali people who were so holier about no nukes - while buying power from AZ's nukes. The solution to people like that is to pull the plug on them and leave them to their principles. Let's see how many green thoughts it takes to run a hospital, for example. I liked the people in AZ & NM but there's no water. One day they'll suck the aquifers dry, there'll be a big belching sound and a lot of places will go right back to desert. Too many people for the carrying capacity. Where I live nowadays is one of the nicest, quietest spots on the planet, and I've been around. Parts of NZ are prettier, but NZ really is only clinging to 1st World status because of its close association with Australia. It has no industry and no significant human or natural resources to generate any. It's a nice place, but too much of a nanny state for me. It's getting worse here, but we haven't yet sunk to the depths of NZ where they won't let you go sailing without a ton of stuff that doesn't actually make you safer, merely easier to find if your boat sinks. Personally I think we should just ban EPIRBs in non-commercial hands unless you also buy an insurance policy, and leave it up to the individuals to decide. But it'll never fly. Don't know about BC, I'm sort of planning on heading to Vancouver around August, but I do know that my climate is a lot milder in winter, so that's a plus. Water temp never drops below 11C even in the middle of winter (NO ice - I've seen all the sea ice I need to in my lifetime) and snow only reaches sea level maybe 2 or 3 times per winter, if that. Melts in a day. Doubt I'll ever move far from home nowadays, except to play tourist on my own sailboat. I see Vancouver has 600K people, that's more than the entire population of Tasmania. Hobart is 200K and you can live aboard in the central city dock without any hassle. BTW I have a book on wood burning stoves I bought off Mother Earth News many years ago - Ole Wik was the author IIRC. Mostly made from 200 litre drums. I can see how they could become people killers if you didn't exercise some judgement. Mother Earth News had a lot of good articles, but you did need to have a healthy dose of common sense to winnow out the plain lethal stuff. I still have all of issues 1 through to 72 IIRC - the first 12 years. PDW| 19378|19215|2009-01-13 10:48:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 08:24:47AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > I don't recall reading anything by Burkhardt, > > Burkhardt predated Thesiger by about 100 years - he was in what is now > Saudi Arabia around 1812 IIRC. First European to get to Mecca I think. > The interesting part is, how little attitudes have changed. > > but I first ran across > > Thesiger about two years ago. Excellent, stark characterization of the > > Arab cultures by a man who grew up there, knew them intimately, and > > spent a large part of his life exploring the area. I don't recall > > exactly, but looking over Wikipedia's list of his books, I think it was > > "Crossing the Sands" that I read. I'll join you in recommending him to > > anyone who wants to understand the Middle East. > > 'The Marsh Arabs' is a great read. It's a pity your leadership didn't > read and understand it BEFORE invading Iraq. [sigh] Peter, if it was up to me, Bush would have been impeached the day after his [non-]response on 9/11. I watched the growing insanity of Afghanistan and Iraq with absolute horror and frustration at not being able to do anything to stop it, and I watched Bush spit on and destroy the incredible outpouring of support that we got from the entire world after 9/11. I'm an American, and Bush, to my great shame, represented America for eight long years... and if I could have done anything to prevent or change that, I would have. I couldn't. Growing up in Russia and being intimately familiar with Central Asia and the people who live there gave me a lot of insight into how Arabs think and what their responses would be in that situation. Going to war in Iraq was the *stupidest* possible move that could be made - and yet, it happened. Unsurprisingly, all my old friends in the military intelligence community agreed with me; however, they were ignored, just like every single expert opinion on the subject was ignored. Bush *wanted* to go to war there, and when he couldn't find an actual reason, he invented a pretext - "weapons of mass destruction". > > > Personally I'm a proponent of nuclear power until we get something > > > better. I don't think it's the answer to everything, merely better > > > technology for producing baseload electricity than any of the other > > > methods. > > > > I don't know what the situation is on your side of the world, but in the > > US, that's not a viable answer. > > Not YET, no. The way it's structured, it would take years and years to dismantle the whole mechanism of bureaucracy around it - and *that* would take the American populace getting over their fear of nuclear energy. I don't hold out much hope in that direction. > I lived in AZ for a while. We all used to laugh at the Cali people who > were so holier about no nukes - while buying power from AZ's nukes. I think that the cynical/practical dynamic underlying that was "screw Arizona; if they blow themselves up, no big deal - they don't have much population density." > The solution to people like that is to pull the plug on them and leave > them to their principles. Let's see how many green thoughts it takes > to run a hospital, for example. Heh. Cute, but - without CA, AZ has no _food._ Ever notice that constant stream of trucks headed up I-10? > I liked the people in AZ & NM but > there's no water. One day they'll suck the aquifers dry, there'll be a > big belching sound and a lot of places will go right back to desert. > Too many people for the carrying capacity. Yep. Much of the US infrastructure is heavily overloaded, right up to capacity - and during the Bush years, it was all left to rot. Over 50% of the bridges and a large percentage of the major roadways in the US are out of maintenance. > Where I live nowadays is one of the nicest, quietest spots on the > planet, and I've been around. I've known some Kiwis in the past - sailors, especially - and they tend to be a pretty self-satisfied bunch. With good reason - even if they do have to eat witchetty grubs once a year to keep their citizenship... :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19379|19364|2009-01-13 10:56:26|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|Brent, what do you think about using copper and protecting it with a sheet of steel in the firebox? makes plumbing much easier but being copper, much easier to dammage, thus the sheet of steel to protect. to speed up movement of water & increase flow was thinking of running a few of these pipes through the firebox & joining them all together top & bottom with a manifold made of copper tube Thanks, Shane __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 19380|19380|2009-01-13 13:03:43|p.gregory1968|origami calculation of dimensions - how to ?|Hello everyone I'm new member of origami group,and I've ordered a ORIGAMIBOAT book ,but didn't got it yet - so, may be I'm totally wrong and may be I should to read the book carefully first - but nowhere I can't see a calculations for creating origami boat with exact angles and dimensions - so,my question is : Is there a link or page for to find an info. for basic calculations of cuts, angles,board curves, cuts widthness and all other details for to build a boat without mistakes ? Many thanks for any opinion - GregoryP| 19381|19215|2009-01-13 13:15:09|Gary Prebble|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Ben.... your fellow Americans I have met in Nanaimo Harbour persuing or building Brent boats should give you lots of optimism. Regards Gary . I'm sorry if this opinion > offends anyone... but I grieve for my country, and can only hope that it > will somehow turn around. I hope that we still have the ability to do > so. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19382|19215|2009-01-13 15:55:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 06:15:05PM -0000, Gary Prebble wrote: > Ben.... your fellow Americans I have met in Nanaimo Harbour persuing or > building Brent boats should give you lots of optimism. Gary, I believe that there are plenty of *individual* Americans who are fine people - people of integrity, ambition, and so on, people whom I would be (and am) proud to know. As a society and a culture... I have grave doubts. One of the pitfalls of democracy, as Heinlein noted, is that people can vote themselves bread and circuses - and we've reached that stage. One of the reasons I love cruising is that the height of the bar isn't about money (although a lot of things can be done with money); mostly, it's about ability. The greatest majority of the long-term cruisers I've met have been intelligent, adaptable, capable, open-minded people - no matter what country they come from. That's a world I like living in. People who have the willingness to work hard - and building a boat is very hard work indeed - do indeed tap into my optimistic side; they're mostly my kind of people... but there don't seem to be enough of them to counter the Lexus-driving, oil-guzzling, Walmart-addicted credit junkies. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19383|19215|2009-01-13 16:05:22|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Ben! I like Your posts and comments! Interesting points of view and a lot of new English words! Did´nt know there where so many :-) Gives me reason to use my old school dictionary.... When You and Your wife sail to Europe - let me know and I will show You some real nice sailing areas and places on the east coast of Sweden. Rgds/Leif T __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3762 (20090113) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com| 19384|19380|2009-01-13 16:26:33|brentswain38|Re: origami calculation of dimensions - how to ?|Draw your hull lines up in the usual way, do your calculations in the usual way, then make a very accurate model with the chines running full length. Then take very accurate patterns off it , cut the bottom pattern in half ,roughly amidships , join it at the bow and stern, then make an origami model out of one layer of fibreglass matt wetted out on a piece of arborite, well waxed. You can tape the seams together with masking tape, then fibreglas them from the inside,to make a model you can bounce off the wall, and do some aesthetic and interior visualising from that. You can also double check the displacement , LCB , etc on the model in the bathtub. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "p.gregory1968" wrote: > > Hello everyone > > I'm new member of origami group,and I've ordered a ORIGAMIBOAT book > ,but didn't got it yet - so, may be I'm totally wrong and may be I > should to read the book carefully first - but nowhere I can't see a > calculations for creating origami boat with exact angles and > dimensions - so,my question is : > > Is there a link or page for to find an info. for basic calculations of > cuts, angles,board curves, cuts widthness and all other details for to > build a boat without mistakes ? > > Many thanks for any opinion - GregoryP > | 19385|19364|2009-01-13 16:30:58|brentswain38|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|While copper is easier to bend and conducts heat very well , it is more fragile. There is plenty of stainless thin walled tubing in scrapyards , of all sizes , some with bends already in. I'd strive to find enough before going copper . Your proposal will work however. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Brent, > > what do you think about using copper and protecting it with a sheet of steel in the firebox? > > makes plumbing much easier but being copper, much easier to dammage, thus the sheet of steel to protect. > > to speed up movement of water & increase flow was thinking of running a few of these pipes through the firebox & joining them all together top & bottom with a manifold made of copper tube > > Thanks, > Shane > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > | 19386|19215|2009-01-13 16:38:58|brentswain38|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|It appears a change is in the works . Many fine Usanians with brains, free thinkers, were leaving for other countries in droves of political refugees ,which threatened to leave the patients in charge of the asylum. Living next door to an asylum doesn't make you safe if the patients are in charge of the assylum. Now wiser ones seem to have finally taken control. The ratio seems to have been 50-50 altho that number seems to be improving. It is embarassing as a Canadian that our government is returning those who refused to take part in an illegal war, making Canada a violater of international law. They have in the past been some of the best refugees anyone could ask for , people who refused to commit mass murder on anyones orders, and paid a high price for having such great ddication to their values. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Ben.... your fellow Americans I have met in Nanaimo Harbour persuing or > building Brent boats should give you lots of optimism. > > Regards > Gary > > > > . I'm sorry if this opinion > > offends anyone... but I grieve for my country, and can only hope that > it > > will somehow turn around. I hope that we still have the ability to do > > so. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 19387|19215|2009-01-13 17:56:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Ben, very well said. You keep great company. As a Canadian, I really hate to say this, but some of the most fantastic people I have met travelling have been the "enlightened" Americans. Hang in there, Paul P.S. You may also find this interesting. http://seekingalpha.com/author/james-quinn/articles/latest From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:54 AM To: Origami Boat list Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 06:15:05PM -0000, Gary Prebble wrote: > Ben.... your fellow Americans I have met in Nanaimo Harbour persuing or > building Brent boats should give you lots of optimism. Gary, I believe that there are plenty of *individual* Americans who are fine people - people of integrity, ambition, and so on, people whom I would be (and am) proud to know. As a society and a culture... I have grave doubts. One of the pitfalls of democracy, as Heinlein noted, is that people can vote themselves bread and circuses - and we've reached that stage. One of the reasons I love cruising is that the height of the bar isn't about money (although a lot of things can be done with money); mostly, it's about ability. The greatest majority of the long-term cruisers I've met have been intelligent, adaptable, capable, open-minded people - no matter what country they come from. That's a world I like living in. People who have the willingness to work hard - and building a boat is very hard work indeed - do indeed tap into my optimistic side; they're mostly my kind of people... but there don't seem to be enough of them to counter the Lexus-driving, oil-guzzling, Walmart-addicted credit junkies. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19388|19215|2009-01-13 19:45:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: SV: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:05:18PM +0100, Leif Thomsen wrote: > Ben! > > I like Your posts and comments! Interesting points of view and a lot of new > English words! Did´nt know there where so many :-) Gives me reason to use my > old school dictionary.... [laugh] Well, English is a wonderfully robust and expressive language. It may lack the nuance of, say, Russian, or the emotional sophistication of a Romance language, or the social aspects of Japanese - but it's got a lot of moxie (*there's* a wonderfully juicy word for you!), has a pleasantly free structure that doesn't force you to mangle the thoughts you want to express, and has enough freedom to say what you want even if you don't have exactly the right word. It's a good viral meme, too: it's penetrated into pretty much every country in the world, and where it penetrates, it tends to stick. It's a classic - and perhaps the most successful - case of a trade language gone mainstream. Besides, I like playing with languages. One of these days, I'm going to get a t-shirt that says so. :) > When You and Your wife sail to Europe - let me know and I will show You some > real nice sailing areas and places on the east coast of Sweden. Thanks, Leif - I'll keep that in mind! I was already planning on visiting my friend Christer Edling in northern Sweden, and I'm always happy to know more hospitable people wherever I go. If you happen to visit the US anytime soon and end up in Florida, feel free to contact me as well; there's a number of fun things to do here, too. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19389|19364|2009-01-14 08:27:46|edward_stoneuk|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|A copper tube water heating coil may corrode, especially if the fuel contains sulphur as do many coals. Another problem is that the cold water in the tube may cause the usually acidic combustion gases to condense leading to corrosion even of stainless steels. Commercial water heaters often us a bypass where the water circulating through the combustion area is kept at a temperature above the dew point of the combustion gases to avoid condensation. The water for the heating radiators is then bled off at a lower temperature. Another point is that the water tube should be as a 'U' or coil to allow for differential expansion and contraction of the tube and the stove shell to avoid straining the welds or connections leading to leaks of water or combustion gases. A good fire and or low water could cause the water to boil and produce steam, which if there is no pressure relief or a blockage will cause the system to explode, scalding anyone in the vicinity. This was a fairly common experience in early steam powered locomotives and river boats when the safety relief valves were tightened up to give more pressure and hence speed. Regards, Ted| 19390|19295|2009-01-14 20:23:51|Carl Anderson|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|Brent & others - Kate here of M.O.M. Could someone send us a copy of their letter to the Port Authority? I'd just like to make sure we put in the "right wording" & such to try to get rid of this terrible idea. Thanks All... whatta bummer. k brentswain38 wrote: > > > The phone number for the Nanaimo Port Authority is 250-753-4146 > Phone often, several times a day. Ask your boating friends to phone > often, several times a day, wherever you live. Phone calls are pennies > now.Those who have free internet based phone service can phone free > from anywhere on the planet. My Ontario based phone card shows up on > their call display as being from Ontario, even when I call from > anywhere on Vancouver Island. So they have no idea where you are > calling from. > I was told that if one takes a copy of a fax, makes several copies > and tapes them to gether in a continuous loop , puts them in the Fax > machine friday nite and turns it on, the fax machine receiving the fax > just keeps on making copies the whole weekend, till the paper runs > out . This also works for overnight faxes. > Oh , by the way, the Nanaimo Port Authority's fax number is > 250-753-4899. Just in case you wan to send a fax. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > In the 80's I asked Ed Broadbent about the bill of rights. He said it > > was passed before the charter of rights when such issues were still > > provincial jurisdiction , and thus had no force, and is thus not > > legally enforceable. The charter is legally binding as part of our > > constitution and we have had som eexcellent ruling supporting it by > > all courts up to the Supreme Court of Canada. Civil Liberties Lawyers > > said befor the Charter we had nothing, and laws could be totally > > arbritary with no base ground rules whatever. > > The charter was drawn up by some great Canadians from all provinces , > > not only by Pierre Idiot Trudeau. It was one of the good things he > > supported . > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , SHANE ROTHWELL > > wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > You are 100% correct about the abuse of human rights and YES this is > > BIG BROTHER at work. Thank you for raising the allarm! > > > > > > However, the legal platform you suggest guarantees that BIG BROTHER > > will win as the "charter of rights & freedoms" is NOT for human > > beings and is a flim-flam created around the time of tredeau (may he > > rot in hell!). How? in the charter of rights & freedoms there is NO > > mention whatsoever of human beings, there is no mention of property. > > > > > > However, you are onto the right track, but its the Canadian Bill of > > Rights that you want to use for 3 reasons: > > > 1. It specifically states that it is for the protection of people. > > Human beings > > > 2. it specifically states that people have a right to their own > property > > > 3. ALL acts of parlament MUST pass a review before they are even > > allowed a 3rd reading (a pre-requisite before being passed into law) > > to insure that the human rights of Canadians are not infringed in any > > way. This a opposed to the flim-flam bullshit the govt tries to pass > > off as protecting the people. there is no pre-requisite like this for > > the charter flim flam and how often have you heard any gov't > > porkbarreler even refer to the Canadian Bill of Rights in the last 20 > > years? > > > > > > The other KEY point is that if BIG BROTHER=beaurocaps are to be put > > in their place the only way to do that is to represent ourselves as > > human beings. the legal term for a human being in this country is > > "Natural Person". If you just tell them your name, you AUTOMATICALLY > > by tacit acceptance, are assumed to be acting for and on behalf of the > > artificial person (the corporate entity that you applied for when you > > applied for a social insurance numer. a social insurance number is a 9 > > digit number and is in fact a corporate registry number). And who > > calls the shots for corporations.....the gov't. > > > > > > Again, Thanks for raising the allarm > > > > > > But, like someone else mentioned, we need a list of contacts to get > > the ball rolling. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo > > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@ brentswain38 > > > Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:34 pm (PST) > > > The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are > > > allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for uninsured > > > boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to pay > > > their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our lifestyle, > > > to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights > > > under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to > > > persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance industry > > > dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or who > > > may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood > > > under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in > > > Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore acomodation > > > for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the right > > > of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing thru. > > > Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving > > > thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the > > > area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). > > > All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should > > > email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or not. > > > They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I > > > think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living > > > outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread to > > > other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme > > > established as the norm. > > > Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the > > > interests of the real estate industry. > > > Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all > > > consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not stopping > > > there, so they will get the message clearly. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to > > Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > | 19391|19380|2009-01-14 22:49:59|Aaron Williams|Re: origami calculation of dimensions - how to ?|Gregory  Read past post and search for Gerd and or Yago. Are you going to design your own boat? Or do you know that Brent sells plans for several sailboats. Aaron --- On Tue, 1/13/09, p.gregory1968 wrote: From: p.gregory1968 Subject: [origamiboats] origami calculation of dimensions - how to ? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 9:03 AM Hello everyone I'm new member of origami group,and I've ordered a ORIGAMIBOAT book ,but didn't got it yet - so, may be I'm totally wrong and may be I should to read the book carefully first - but nowhere I can't see a calculations for creating origami boat with exact angles and dimensions - so,my question is : Is there a link or page for to find an info. for basic calculations of cuts, angles,board curves, cuts widthness and all other details for to build a boat without mistakes ? Many thanks for any opinion - GregoryP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19392|19295|2009-01-15 21:21:27|brentswain38|Re: Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo|I'm just writing one . Email me your postal address. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Brent & others - > > Kate here of M.O.M. > > Could someone send us a copy of their letter to the Port Authority? > I'd just like to make sure we put in the "right wording" & such to try > to get rid of this terrible idea. > > Thanks All... > whatta bummer. > k > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > The phone number for the Nanaimo Port Authority is 250-753-4146 > > Phone often, several times a day. Ask your boating friends to phone > > often, several times a day, wherever you live. Phone calls are pennies > > now.Those who have free internet based phone service can phone free > > from anywhere on the planet. My Ontario based phone card shows up on > > their call display as being from Ontario, even when I call from > > anywhere on Vancouver Island. So they have no idea where you are > > calling from. > > I was told that if one takes a copy of a fax, makes several copies > > and tapes them to gether in a continuous loop , puts them in the Fax > > machine friday nite and turns it on, the fax machine receiving the fax > > just keeps on making copies the whole weekend, till the paper runs > > out . This also works for overnight faxes. > > Oh , by the way, the Nanaimo Port Authority's fax number is > > 250-753-4899. Just in case you wan to send a fax. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > In the 80's I asked Ed Broadbent about the bill of rights. He said it > > > was passed before the charter of rights when such issues were still > > > provincial jurisdiction , and thus had no force, and is thus not > > > legally enforceable. The charter is legally binding as part of our > > > constitution and we have had som eexcellent ruling supporting it by > > > all courts up to the Supreme Court of Canada. Civil Liberties Lawyers > > > said befor the Charter we had nothing, and laws could be totally > > > arbritary with no base ground rules whatever. > > > The charter was drawn up by some great Canadians from all provinces , > > > not only by Pierre Idiot Trudeau. It was one of the good things he > > > supported . > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , SHANE ROTHWELL > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > You are 100% correct about the abuse of human rights and YES this is > > > BIG BROTHER at work. Thank you for raising the allarm! > > > > > > > > However, the legal platform you suggest guarantees that BIG BROTHER > > > will win as the "charter of rights & freedoms" is NOT for human > > > beings and is a flim-flam created around the time of tredeau (may he > > > rot in hell!). How? in the charter of rights & freedoms there is NO > > > mention whatsoever of human beings, there is no mention of property. > > > > > > > > However, you are onto the right track, but its the Canadian Bill of > > > Rights that you want to use for 3 reasons: > > > > 1. It specifically states that it is for the protection of people. > > > Human beings > > > > 2. it specifically states that people have a right to their own > > property > > > > 3. ALL acts of parlament MUST pass a review before they are even > > > allowed a 3rd reading (a pre-requisite before being passed into law) > > > to insure that the human rights of Canadians are not infringed in any > > > way. This a opposed to the flim-flam bullshit the govt tries to pass > > > off as protecting the people. there is no pre-requisite like this for > > > the charter flim flam and how often have you heard any gov't > > > porkbarreler even refer to the Canadian Bill of Rights in the last 20 > > > years? > > > > > > > > The other KEY point is that if BIG BROTHER=beaurocaps are to be put > > > in their place the only way to do that is to represent ourselves as > > > human beings. the legal term for a human being in this country is > > > "Natural Person". If you just tell them your name, you AUTOMATICALLY > > > by tacit acceptance, are assumed to be acting for and on behalf of the > > > artificial person (the corporate entity that you applied for when you > > > applied for a social insurance numer. a social insurance number is a 9 > > > digit number and is in fact a corporate registry number). And who > > > calls the shots for corporations.....the gov't. > > > > > > > > Again, Thanks for raising the allarm > > > > > > > > But, like someone else mentioned, we need a list of contacts to get > > > the ball rolling. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Florida and San Diego comes to Nanaimo > > > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@ brentswain38 > > > > Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:34 pm (PST) > > > > The Nanaimo Harbour commision is planning to limit how long we are > > > > allowed to anchor there to 2 weeks, and make it illegal for uninsured > > > > boats to enter the harbour in some cases, to force all boaters to pay > > > > their $30 per night mooring fees. This is an attack on our lifestyle, > > > > to force us all onto the treadmill. It violates our mobility rights > > > > under section six in the Canadian consitutuion , and our right to > > > > persue a livlihood anywhere in Canada. It lets the insurance industry > > > > dictate who may or may not have access to our public waterways, or who > > > > may qualify for mobility rights and the right to persue a livlihood > > > > under the charter of rights. I and my friends have often anchored in > > > > Nanaimo for a few weeks work. We could never afford shore acomodation > > > > for that length of time, nor find it easily.It also viloates the right > > > > of merchants in the area to make a living off the boats passing thru. > > > > Thrifty's supermarket makes 3 million per year from boaters moving > > > > thru. Maybe we should start phoning them and other merchants in the > > > > area , like ship chandlers( Harbour Chandlers, West Marine, etc). > > > > All freedom loving Canadians, whether boat owners or not , should > > > > email or phone in their opposition , whether they own a boat or not. > > > > They claim to be asking for input. I suggest we give them plenty. I > > > > think they are trying to slip this in unoticed by boaters living > > > > outside Nanaimo. It is the thin edge of a wedge , which will spread to > > > > other anchorages all over the coast if it is allowed to becme > > > > established as the norm. > > > > Nanaimo has long been run by the real estate industry in the > > > > interests of the real estate industry. > > > > Giving Nanaimo a miss this summer is anothe roption we should all > > > > consider. Phone and tell the merchants there why we are not stopping > > > > there, so they will get the message clearly. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to > > > Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 19393|19393|2009-01-15 22:31:47|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Ocean acidity|On Discovery News today some insight in to how nature takes care of balencing the oceans acidity. http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/01/15/fish-poop-ocean.html? campaign=w01-101-ae-0002 Jon| 19394|19393|2009-01-16 00:33:52|djackson99@aol.com|Fuel Tank|I've go a 150 or so gallon fuel tank off a school bus, but it has no baffles and only about a 4 inch opening for the lines and sender.? Does anyone have any ideas about how to add baffles with minimal surgery? Thanks for the help. Doug J [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19395|19380|2009-01-16 03:21:46|p.gregory1968|Re: origami calculation of dimensions - how to ?|Hi Aaron Thank you for right idea - my problem is :I'm looking for catamaran plans - there are a little bit other body and length - but hope it should work in any way - if I'll use correct proportions fort his long boat - ratio l/w about 1/7 - 1/8| 19396|19393|2009-01-16 08:45:31|Tom Mann|Re: Fuel Tank|Cut one end off and slip baffles in, wekding each one as you go then weld the end back on? Tom On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 9:33 PM, wrote: > > I've go a 150 or so gallon fuel tank off a school bus, but it has no > baffles and only about a 4 inch opening for the lines and sender.? Does > anyone have any ideas about how to add baffles with minimal surgery? > > Thanks for the help. > Doug J > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19397|19393|2009-01-16 09:48:38|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Fuel Tank|Right.? A backing strip could go in to make welding it back together easier. Would it be worth welding on bolt flanges instead so it could be opened up again?? --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:45 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank Cut one end off and slip baffles in, wekding each one as you go then weld the end back on? Tom On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 9:33 PM, wrote: > > I've go a 150 or so gallon fuel tank off a school bus, but it has no > baffles and only about a 4 inch opening for the lines and sender.? Does > anyone have any ideas about how to add baffles with minimal surgery? > > Thanks for the help. > Doug J > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19398|19393|2009-01-16 10:54:41|Carl Anderson|Re: Fuel Tank|Doug, I think that you will be better off custom making a tank that fits exactly the area of where it will be placed. Also 150 gallons is a lot unless you are building a 40 footer. I have a little over 80 gallons (US measure) total fuel tankage in M.O.M. Carl djackson99@... wrote: > > > > I've go a 150 or so gallon fuel tank off a school bus, but it has no > baffles and only about a 4 inch opening for the lines and sender.? Does > anyone have any ideas about how to add baffles with minimal surgery? > > Thanks for the help. > Doug J > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 19399|19393|2009-01-16 11:39:46|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Fuel Tank|Hello Carl We follow M.O.M. on your web site.? Really do appreciate the work that you have put in on that. We have not started to build yet. Just collecting stuff and planning at this point but it's a 74ft boat with thirsty diesels so 150gal is just an auxiliary tank. We'll build other custom tanks, but this it such a nice rectangular tank that it's tempting to just use it. So on the pros and cons of integrated tanks vs removable tanks?? Seems like integrated might be easier to build and provide a little bit of double hull where as removable tanks are easier to maintain, replace and repair if needed.? What else is there to consider? Thanks Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 9:54 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank Doug, I think that you will be better off custom making a tank that fits exactly the area of where it will be placed. Also 150 gallons is a lot unless you are building a 40 footer. I have a little over 80 gallons (US measure) total fuel tankage in M.O.M. Carl djackson99@... wrote: > > > > I've go a 150 or so gallon fuel tank off a school bus, but it has no > baffles and only about a 4 inch opening for the lines and sender.? Does > anyone have any ideas about how to add baffles with minimal surgery? > > Thanks for the help. > Doug J > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19400|19393|2009-01-16 12:34:04|theboilerflue|Re: Fuel Tank|Are they stainless? i added some stainless baffles to a couple of tanks i found by cutting a slit in the top and sliding a plate in the idea was to cut holes on the other side of the tank for the corners to be welded into but, the time it took to finally get the plate to fit into the holes on the opposite side of the tank - wasn't worth it. So what i did for the rest of them was cut a curved slot and put the baffle in curved that way i only needed to weld along the top and the baffle still had its rigidity and wouldn't bend with the sloshing water, it was way easier. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > I've go a 150 or so gallon fuel tank off a school bus, but it has no baffles and only about a 4 inch opening for the lines and sender.? Does anyone have any ideas about how to add baffles with minimal surgery? > > Thanks for the help. > Doug J > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19401|19380|2009-01-16 12:49:36|Aaron Williams|Re: origami calculation of dimensions - how to ?|Phil Cats have been a big discussion here in tha past just do a search for for them. Aaron --- On Thu, 1/15/09, p.gregory1968 wrote: From: p.gregory1968 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami calculation of dimensions - how to ? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 11:21 PM Hi Aaron Thank you for right idea - my problem is :I'm looking for catamaran plans - there are a little bit other body and length - but hope it should work in any way - if I'll use correct proportions fort his long boat - ratio l/w about 1/7 - 1/8 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19402|19393|2009-01-16 14:37:38|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Fuel Tank|Sounds like a good idea.? Thanks --Doug -----Original Message----- From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:34 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel Tank Are they stainless? i added some stainless baffles to a couple of tanks i found by cutting a slit in the top and sliding a plate in the idea was to cut holes on the other side of the tank for the corners to be welded into but, the time it took to finally get the plate to fit into the holes on the opposite side of the tank - wasn't worth it. So what i did for the rest of them was cut a curved slot and put the baffle in curved that way i only needed to weld along the top and the baffle still had its rigidity and wouldn't bend with the sloshing water, it was way easier. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > I've go a 150 or so gallon fuel tank off a school bus, but it has no baffles and only about a 4 inch opening for the lines and sender.? Does anyone have any ideas about how to add baffles with minimal surgery? > > Thanks for the help. > Doug J > >? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19403|19393|2009-01-16 15:04:58|Carl Anderson|Re: Fuel Tank|Doug, Cleanout ports! You will need a way to get your arm into the tank and clean every bit of the inside. This might not happen soon but from everything I've read on the SSCA website you will have to do this eventualy if you keep the boat for any length of time. Seems that sludge & slime buildup are problematic with diesel fuel tanks. I'm very glad that I put 6" cleanouts on all of my large tanks. I wish that I had one on the day tank but it is only about 16 gallons. Carl djackson99@... wrote: > > > > Hello Carl > > We follow M.O.M. on your web site.? Really do appreciate the work that > you have put in on that. > > We have not started to build yet. Just collecting stuff and planning at > this point but it's a 74ft boat with thirsty diesels so 150gal is just > an auxiliary tank. We'll build other custom tanks, but this it such a > nice rectangular tank that it's tempting to just use it. > > So on the pros and cons of integrated tanks vs removable tanks?? Seems > like integrated might be easier to build and provide a little bit of > double hull where as removable tanks are easier to maintain, replace and > repair if needed.? What else is there to consider? > > Thanks > Doug J > | 19404|19393|2009-01-16 15:23:29|mark hamill|Re: Fuel Tank|Cleanout ports are important. A couple of boats I did maintenance on this summer had some black glop in them that had to removed and without the cleanouts this would have been difficult. Was there some discussion in this group about putting a drain in the bottom to remove water??| 19405|19393|2009-01-16 20:30:38|Tom Mann|Re: Fuel Tank|I would just weld the end in, unbolting it would not do much good you couldnt get past the first baffle. If the tanks in good shape after installing baffles you could make clean out ports on the top stradling the baffles. Tom On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:48 AM, wrote: > > Right.? A backing strip could go in to make welding it back together > easier. Would it be worth welding on bolt flanges instead so it could be > opened up again?? --Doug > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:45 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cut one end off and slip baffles in, wekding each one as you go then weld > > the end back on? > > Tom > > > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 9:33 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > I've go a 150 or so gallon fuel tank off a school bus, but it has no > > > baffles and only about a 4 inch opening for the lines and sender.? Does > > > anyone have any ideas about how to add baffles with minimal surgery? > > > > > > Thanks for the help. > > > Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19406|19393|2009-01-16 22:46:23|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Fuel Tank|Thanks for the ideas everybody.? Sounds like removable tanks with good port access to every corner, would aid in cleaning, draining off the bottom.? --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:30 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank I would just weld the end in, unbolting it would not do much good you couldnt get past the first baffle. If the tanks in good shape after installing baffles you could make clean out ports on the top stradling the baffles. Tom On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:48 AM, wrote: > > Right.? A backing strip could go in to make welding it back together > easier. Would it be worth welding on bolt flanges instead so it could be > opened up again?? --Doug > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19407|19215|2009-01-17 03:29:10|peter_d_wiley|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 08:24:47AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > I don't recall reading anything by Burkhardt, > > > > Burkhardt predated Thesiger by about 100 years - he was in what is now > > Saudi Arabia around 1812 IIRC. First European to get to Mecca I think. > > The interesting part is, how little attitudes have changed. > > > > but I first ran across > > > Thesiger about two years ago. Excellent, stark characterization of the > > > Arab cultures by a man who grew up there, knew them intimately, and > > > spent a large part of his life exploring the area. I don't recall > > > exactly, but looking over Wikipedia's list of his books, I think it was > > > "Crossing the Sands" that I read. I'll join you in recommending him to > > > anyone who wants to understand the Middle East. > > > > 'The Marsh Arabs' is a great read. It's a pity your leadership didn't > > read and understand it BEFORE invading Iraq. > > [sigh] Peter, if it was up to me, Bush would have been impeached the day > after his [non-]response on 9/11. I watched the growing insanity of > Afghanistan and Iraq with absolute horror and frustration at not being > able to do anything to stop it, and I watched Bush spit on and destroy > the incredible outpouring of support that we got from the entire world > after 9/11. I'm an American, and Bush, to my great shame, represented > America for eight long years... and if I could have done anything to > prevent or change that, I would have. I couldn't. Actually, going into Afghanistan wasn't all bad, but I don't think they thought it through. Should have been strictly a decapitation mission and leave. Tell the locals to sort their own affairs out with the promise that the next lot would be up against the wall if they kept on with the same old. And I shed no tears for Hussein. He deserved what he got. It was the sheer irrelevance (in terms of the BS WOT) and the total lack of consideration for what would happen NEXT that infuriated me. A 3 way civil war between the Sunnis, Shias and Kurds was guaranteed, with Turkey and Iran meddling, Turkey because they didn't want their Kurds getting ideas, Iran ditto *and* supporting the Shias. Aaargh. Outpouring of support - the USA lost mine when they started acting the same as their opponents. Torture is torture and once you start, there goes your moral superiority. That was it for me. You guys are going to have to wait a long time to live down Guantanamo Bay and when your people eventually end up on the receiving end, you've got no grounds for complaint. That coupled with 'extraordinary rendition' AKA kidnapping and torture should make any US businessman shiver when going places. If terrorism is a matter of definition, and kidnapping & torture is OK, the world has got a lot more risky. > > Growing up in Russia and being intimately familiar with Central Asia and > the people who live there gave me a lot of insight into how Arabs think > and what their responses would be in that situation. Going to war in > Iraq was the *stupidest* possible move that could be made - and yet, it > happened. Heh. I worked with some Siberians at one point and their fav saying was 'Nobody going to shoot you for being wrong'. Was an interesting insight into the culture they'd left... > The way it's structured, it would take years and years to dismantle the > whole mechanism of bureaucracy around it - and *that* would take the > American populace getting over their fear of nuclear energy. I don't > hold out much hope in that direction. Oh, I don't disagree with you. People are brainwashed and fearful about nukes. Most don't realise that the difference between a nuke power plant and a fossil fuelled one is the heat source for the steam. > > The solution to people like that is to pull the plug on them and leave > > them to their principles. Let's see how many green thoughts it takes > > to run a hospital, for example. > > Heh. Cute, but - without CA, AZ has no _food._ Ever notice that constant > stream of trucks headed up I-10? Shrug. A lot of the 'fresh' food I bought in supermarkets was crap anyway. They could import from Australia & NZ cheaper and get better quality. Our ag standards WRT pesticide residues etc are at least as rigorous as yours, unlike (say) Mexico and China. Not like there's all that many people in AZ to feed, after all. The trade barriers on agricultural produce certainly aren't there to protect Arizonans from competition! Only another 2 or 3 weeks working in Sydney and I can get back to my workshop and boats. Can't wait... PDW| 19408|19393|2009-01-17 03:42:22|thesnotrocket|Re: Fuel Tank|George Beuhler has an article on his site showing an old bottom draining tank design with a small sump on the bottom. It has a petcock below the fuel pickup for draining out any water that collects. It sounds like a good idea if the tank is accessible. http://www.georgebuehler.com/Fuel%20tank%20drains.html -Dave --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Thanks for the ideas everybody.? Sounds like removable tanks with good port access to every corner, would aid in cleaning, draining off the bottom.? --Doug J | 19409|19393|2009-01-17 15:14:47|Paul Wilson|Re: Fuel Tank|Hi Doug, In my opinion, I would really go for integral tanks rather than drop in or removable tanks. Having integral tanks is one of the great advantages of a metal boat. Cheaper and easier to build as well. Inspection and cleaning is possible as long as the access ports are large enough. You will eliminate problems of corrosion in an inaccessible area between the tank and the hull. I have known boats that had to dismantle an interior to remove a tank and get at a pinhole leak. Some just give up and add a bladder to a leaking tank. A low point drain is a good thing but not absolutely necessary. If you filter your fuel before it goes into the tank, you should have very few problems. My main tank is in the keel and dropping a hose into the tank and sucking a bit of fuel off the bottom once in awhile to check for water has worked well. In over 15 years, I have never had to clean the main tank. As long as fuel is well filtered for water before it goes into the tank, you shouldn't get slime or bacteria. The bacteria needs water to grow. Add a water dispersant or algae killer once in awhile. The idea of condensation causing water in a tank is a fallacy, in my opinion. The tank is full of fuel vapor, not air, so condensation shouldn't and in my experience doesn't form. I got a lot of water once into my day tank, but it came in through the vent line in rough weather. I think the vent lines are the culprit a lot of times. Buy a good water filter like a Baha filter that can handle the flow (more or less) from a fuel pump and you should be alright. If you can't afford or get a Baha filter, you can use a piece of felt in a large funnel to catch any water in the fuel. Cheers and good luck, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 4:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank Thanks for the ideas everybody.? Sounds like removable tanks with good port access to every corner, would aid in cleaning, draining off the bottom.? --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:30 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank I would just weld the end in, unbolting it would not do much good you couldnt get past the first baffle. If the tanks in good shape after installing baffles you could make clean out ports on the top stradling the baffles. Tom On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:48 AM, > wrote: > > Right.? A backing strip could go in to make welding it back together > easier. Would it be worth welding on bolt flanges instead so it could be > opened up again?? --Doug > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19410|19393|2009-01-17 15:23:17|Paul Wilson|Re: Fuel Tank|Found this.. http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm and this..I guess I spelled Baja wrong. http://www.bajafilters.com/ Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:15 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank Hi Doug, In my opinion, I would really go for integral tanks rather than drop in or removable tanks. Having integral tanks is one of the great advantages of a metal boat. Cheaper and easier to build as well. Inspection and cleaning is possible as long as the access ports are large enough. You will eliminate problems of corrosion in an inaccessible area between the tank and the hull. I have known boats that had to dismantle an interior to remove a tank and get at a pinhole leak. Some just give up and add a bladder to a leaking tank. A low point drain is a good thing but not absolutely necessary. If you filter your fuel before it goes into the tank, you should have very few problems. My main tank is in the keel and dropping a hose into the tank and sucking a bit of fuel off the bottom once in awhile to check for water has worked well. In over 15 years, I have never had to clean the main tank. As long as fuel is well filtered for water before it goes into the tank, you shouldn't get slime or bacteria. The bacteria needs water to grow. Add a water dispersant or algae killer once in awhile. The idea of condensation causing water in a tank is a fallacy, in my opinion. The tank is full of fuel vapor, not air, so condensation shouldn't and in my experience doesn't form. I got a lot of water once into my day tank, but it came in through the vent line in rough weather. I think the vent lines are the culprit a lot of times. Buy a good water filter like a Baha filter that can handle the flow (more or less) from a fuel pump and you should be alright. If you can't afford or get a Baha filter, you can use a piece of felt in a large funnel to catch any water in the fuel. Cheers and good luck, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 4:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank Thanks for the ideas everybody.? Sounds like removable tanks with good port access to every corner, would aid in cleaning, draining off the bottom.? --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:30 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank I would just weld the end in, unbolting it would not do much good you couldnt get past the first baffle. If the tanks in good shape after installing baffles you could make clean out ports on the top stradling the baffles. Tom On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:48 AM, > wrote: > > Right.? A backing strip could go in to make welding it back together > easier. Would it be worth welding on bolt flanges instead so it could be > opened up again?? --Doug > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19411|19393|2009-01-17 15:39:40|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Fuel Tank|Paul, My experience with condensation says that it IS a problem. However your tank in the keel would not be a problem, because it is kept at a very constant temperature by the water around it. A tank above the water line that swings widely in temperature will have condensation problems, UNLESS you can keep it about 10 degrees warmer than ambient at all times. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 3:23 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > Found this.. > > > > http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm > > > > and this..I guess I spelled Baja wrong. > > > > http://www.bajafilters.com/ > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:15 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > > > > Hi Doug, > > In my opinion, I would really go for integral tanks rather than drop in or > removable tanks. Having integral tanks is one of the great advantages of a > metal boat. Cheaper and easier to build as well. Inspection and cleaning > is possible as long as the access ports are large enough. You will > eliminate problems of corrosion in an inaccessible area between the tank > and > the hull. I have known boats that had to dismantle an interior to remove a > tank and get at a pinhole leak. Some just give up and add a bladder to a > leaking tank. > > A low point drain is a good thing but not absolutely necessary. If you > filter your fuel before it goes into the tank, you should have very few > problems. My main tank is in the keel and dropping a hose into the tank > and > sucking a bit of fuel off the bottom once in awhile to check for water has > worked well. In over 15 years, I have never had to clean the main tank. As > long as fuel is well filtered for water before it goes into the tank, you > shouldn't get slime or bacteria. The bacteria needs water to grow. Add a > water dispersant or algae killer once in awhile. The idea of condensation > causing water in a tank is a fallacy, in my opinion. The tank is full of > fuel vapor, not air, so condensation shouldn't and in my experience > doesn't > form. I got a lot of water once into my day tank, but it came in through > the vent line in rough weather. I think the vent lines are the culprit a > lot of times. Buy a good water filter like a Baha filter that can handle > the flow (more or less) from a fuel pump and you should be alright. If you > can't afford or get a Baha filter, you can use a piece of felt in a large > funnel to catch any water in the fuel. > > Cheers and good luck, > > Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > ] On > Behalf Of djackson99@... > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 4:46 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > > Thanks for the ideas everybody.? Sounds like removable tanks with good > port > access to every corner, would aid in cleaning, draining off the bottom.? > --Doug J > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:30 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > > I would just weld the end in, unbolting it would not do much good you > > couldnt get past the first baffle. If the tanks in good shape after > > installing baffles you could make clean out ports on the top stradling the > > baffles. > > Tom > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:48 AM, > > wrote: > >> > >> Right.? A backing strip could go in to make welding it back together > >> easier. Would it be worth welding on bolt flanges instead so it could be > >> opened up again?? --Doug > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 19412|19393|2009-01-17 18:08:13|Paul Wilson|Re: Fuel Tank|Hi Gary, If the volume above the fuel is not air but fuel vapor where does the water come from? It would have to come from the fuel itself, so if the fuel is clean going in, there should be no water. I would assume that there is always enough fuel in the tank that air would not be present since there is always some evaporation of fuel. An empty tank would of course, have condensation as you describe. I have never had any water in my main tank, although I have tested for water in the samples using water detectors that will test for water that is not visible. My boat has been stored on land for up to 9 months in hot and cold climates. It would have gone through the temperature swings that you describe. I think that if there is water in a fuel tank, chances are it has come from somewhere other than condensation. Am I missing something? Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:40 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank Paul, My experience with condensation says that it IS a problem. However your tank in the keel would not be a problem, because it is kept at a very constant temperature by the water around it. A tank above the water line that swings widely in temperature will have condensation problems, UNLESS you can keep it about 10 degrees warmer than ambient at all times. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 3:23 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > Found this.. > > > > http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm > > > > and this..I guess I spelled Baja wrong. > > > > http://www.bajafilters.com/ > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] > On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:15 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > > > > Hi Doug, > > In my opinion, I would really go for integral tanks rather than drop in or > removable tanks. Having integral tanks is one of the great advantages of a > metal boat. Cheaper and easier to build as well. Inspection and cleaning > is possible as long as the access ports are large enough. You will > eliminate problems of corrosion in an inaccessible area between the tank > and > the hull. I have known boats that had to dismantle an interior to remove a > tank and get at a pinhole leak. Some just give up and add a bladder to a > leaking tank. > > A low point drain is a good thing but not absolutely necessary. If you > filter your fuel before it goes into the tank, you should have very few > problems. My main tank is in the keel and dropping a hose into the tank > and > sucking a bit of fuel off the bottom once in awhile to check for water has > worked well. In over 15 years, I have never had to clean the main tank. As > long as fuel is well filtered for water before it goes into the tank, you > shouldn't get slime or bacteria. The bacteria needs water to grow. Add a > water dispersant or algae killer once in awhile. The idea of condensation > causing water in a tank is a fallacy, in my opinion. The tank is full of > fuel vapor, not air, so condensation shouldn't and in my experience > doesn't > form. I got a lot of water once into my day tank, but it came in through > the vent line in rough weather. I think the vent lines are the culprit a > lot of times. Buy a good water filter like a Baha filter that can handle > the flow (more or less) from a fuel pump and you should be alright. If you > can't afford or get a Baha filter, you can use a piece of felt in a large > funnel to catch any water in the fuel. > > Cheers and good luck, > > Paul > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > ] On > Behalf Of djackson99@... > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 4:46 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > > Thanks for the ideas everybody.? Sounds like removable tanks with good > port > access to every corner, would aid in cleaning, draining off the bottom.? > --Doug J > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:30 pm > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > > I would just weld the end in, unbolting it would not do much good you > > couldnt get past the first baffle. If the tanks in good shape after > > installing baffles you could make clean out ports on the top stradling the > > baffles. > > Tom > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:48 AM, > > > wrote: > >> > >> Right.? A backing strip could go in to make welding it back together > >> easier. Would it be worth welding on bolt flanges instead so it could be > >> opened up again?? --Doug > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19413|19393|2009-01-17 20:38:15|T & D Cain|Re: Fuel Tank|Gary is right and Mr. Pascoe is not. His article would have been more useful if he examined the fuel tank families more carefully and did the gas law interpretation more thoroughly. What matters is the non-liquid volume. Full fuel tanks don't exchange much vapor with the ambient. Less than full tanks which are relatively stable in absolute temperature, also don't exchange vapor for air in significant quantity if we don't use the fuel. As Gary writes, if the tank is experiencing absolute temperature swings of more than 5% (A 20degC swing is about 6.8%) on a daily basis, you will be slowly and surely adding water to the contents no matter where you live. Dry climates tend to have larger daily swings than wet or humid climates, so the in_and_out process still adds water, just a different amount. It is not about daily amount, it is about the number of days, and yes, water is always present in fuel and becomes separated when the concentration hits the maximum for the condition of the fuel. The only way to prevent contamination would be to follow the time proven breather techniques used since pussy was a cat in the electrical world. All liquid cooled transformers on a distribution system use a silica gel or equivalent system to absorb the incoming invisible vapor as the transformer cools. Fully sealed and liquid cooled units use a construction style which allows expansion and contraction without a vent (they also have an explosion vent or rupture diaphragm) --- but then these things are not feeding an engine, and the fuel vapor exiting on rising temperature would need activated carbon absorption or it would blind the silica gel. Life wasn't meant to be easy, but we all use water separating filters don't we? We also check for and remove any water from low temperature tank bottoms? Cheers, Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Sunday, 18 January 2009 06:10 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank Paul, My experience with condensation says that it IS a problem. However your tank in the keel would not be a problem, because it is kept at a very constant temperature by the water around it. A tank above the water line that swings widely in temperature will have condensation problems, UNLESS you can keep it about 10 degrees warmer than ambient at all times. Gary H. Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19414|19393|2009-01-17 22:05:46|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Fuel Tank|Paul, The air always contains moisture. At night the temperature goes down and the tank sucks moist air in, where it condenses. During the dryer air expands and pushes out, leaving behind the water. I built absolutely water tight keyboards for electronic equipment. We tested them submerged in a 5 gallon bucket of water with brick on top. After a week they were absolutely dry. We then put them in a greenhouse. After a month they had a teaspoon of water in them and everything was totally corroded. Dozens of them, all over the country, and every one filled with water! Yet the electrical cabinet they were connected to by a 25 conductor cable remained completely dry and corrosion free, for years and years. It finally dawned on us that the keyboards breathed through the cable! The enclosure they were connected to was raintight, but not water tight. It had a heat source, they were always a little warmer, and they never had problems. The keyboard had no active electronics, so no heat, and sealing them completely, except for the cable actually made the problem worse. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 6:08 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > Hi Gary, > > > > If the volume above the fuel is not air but fuel vapor where does the > water > come from? It would have to come from the fuel itself, so if the fuel is > clean going in, there should be no water. I would assume that there is > always enough fuel in the tank that air would not be present since there > is > always some evaporation of fuel. An empty tank would of course, have > condensation as you describe. > > > > I have never had any water in my main tank, although I have tested for > water > in the samples using water detectors that will test for water that is not > visible. My boat has been stored on land for up to 9 months in hot and > cold climates. It would have gone through the temperature swings that you > describe. I think that if there is water in a fuel tank, chances are it > has > come from somewhere other than condensation. Am I missing something? > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:40 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > > > > Paul, > My experience with condensation says that it IS a problem. However your > tank in the keel would not be a problem, because it is kept at a very > constant temperature by the water around it. A tank above the water line > that swings widely in temperature will have condensation problems, UNLESS > you can keep it about 10 degrees warmer than ambient at all times. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Wilson" > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 3:23 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > >> Found this.. >> >> >> >> http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm >> >> >> >> and this..I guess I spelled Baja wrong. >> >> >> >> http://www.bajafilters.com/ >> >> >> >> Cheers, Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > ] >> On >> Behalf Of Paul Wilson >> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:15 AM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank >> >> >> >> Hi Doug, >> >> In my opinion, I would really go for integral tanks rather than drop in >> or >> removable tanks. Having integral tanks is one of the great advantages of >> a >> metal boat. Cheaper and easier to build as well. Inspection and cleaning >> is possible as long as the access ports are large enough. You will >> eliminate problems of corrosion in an inaccessible area between the tank >> and >> the hull. I have known boats that had to dismantle an interior to remove >> a >> tank and get at a pinhole leak. Some just give up and add a bladder to a >> leaking tank. >> >> A low point drain is a good thing but not absolutely necessary. If you >> filter your fuel before it goes into the tank, you should have very few >> problems. My main tank is in the keel and dropping a hose into the tank >> and >> sucking a bit of fuel off the bottom once in awhile to check for water >> has >> worked well. In over 15 years, I have never had to clean the main tank. >> As >> long as fuel is well filtered for water before it goes into the tank, you >> shouldn't get slime or bacteria. The bacteria needs water to grow. Add a >> water dispersant or algae killer once in awhile. The idea of condensation >> causing water in a tank is a fallacy, in my opinion. The tank is full of >> fuel vapor, not air, so condensation shouldn't and in my experience >> doesn't >> form. I got a lot of water once into my day tank, but it came in through >> the vent line in rough weather. I think the vent lines are the culprit a >> lot of times. Buy a good water filter like a Baha filter that can handle >> the flow (more or less) from a fuel pump and you should be alright. If >> you >> can't afford or get a Baha filter, you can use a piece of felt in a large >> funnel to catch any water in the fuel. >> >> Cheers and good luck, >> >> Paul >> >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > >> [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> ] On >> Behalf Of djackson99@... > >> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 4:46 PM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank >> >> Thanks for the ideas everybody.? Sounds like removable tanks with good >> port >> access to every corner, would aid in cleaning, draining off the bottom.? >> --Doug J >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Mann > >> > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:30 pm >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank >> >> I would just weld the end in, unbolting it would not do much good you >> >> couldnt get past the first baffle. If the tanks in good shape after >> >> installing baffles you could make clean out ports on the top stradling >> the >> >> baffles. >> >> Tom >> >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:48 AM, >> >> > wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Right.? A backing strip could go in to make welding it back together >> >>> easier. Would it be worth welding on bolt flanges instead so it could be >> >>> opened up again?? --Doug >> >>> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 19415|19393|2009-01-17 22:37:27|Paul Wilson|Re: Fuel Tank|Gary and Terry, Ok, you guys have me 90% convinced.. I was thinking that the constant vaporization of the fuel would always cause a vapor "flow" out the vent line and not allow air back into the tank, even with it cooling. I must be wrong then, right ? I am kind of reluctant to hold a match against the cooling tanks vent line to test my theory.. Sorry, I don't want to be argumentative, I just want to understand and get rid of the 10% doubt so I can call myself an expert J. Thanks, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 4:06 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank Paul, The air always contains moisture. At night the temperature goes down and the tank sucks moist air in, where it condenses. During the dryer air expands and pushes out, leaving behind the water. I built absolutely water tight keyboards for electronic equipment. We tested them submerged in a 5 gallon bucket of water with brick on top. After a week they were absolutely dry. We then put them in a greenhouse. After a month they had a teaspoon of water in them and everything was totally corroded. Dozens of them, all over the country, and every one filled with water! Yet the electrical cabinet they were connected to by a 25 conductor cable remained completely dry and corrosion free, for years and years. It finally dawned on us that the keyboards breathed through the cable! The enclosure they were connected to was raintight, but not water tight. It had a heat source, they were always a little warmer, and they never had problems. The keyboard had no active electronics, so no heat, and sealing them completely, except for the cable actually made the problem worse. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 6:08 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > Hi Gary, > > > > If the volume above the fuel is not air but fuel vapor where does the > water > come from? It would have to come from the fuel itself, so if the fuel is > clean going in, there should be no water. I would assume that there is > always enough fuel in the tank that air would not be present since there > is > always some evaporation of fuel. An empty tank would of course, have > condensation as you describe. > > > > I have never had any water in my main tank, although I have tested for > water > in the samples using water detectors that will test for water that is not > visible. My boat has been stored on land for up to 9 months in hot and > cold climates. It would have gone through the temperature swings that you > describe. I think that if there is water in a fuel tank, chances are it > has > come from somewhere other than condensation. Am I missing something? > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] > On > Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:40 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > > > > Paul, > My experience with condensation says that it IS a problem. However your > tank in the keel would not be a problem, because it is kept at a very > constant temperature by the water around it. A tank above the water line > that swings widely in temperature will have condensation problems, UNLESS > you can keep it about 10 degrees warmer than ambient at all times. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Wilson" > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 3:23 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank > >> Found this.. >> >> >> >> http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm >> >> >> >> and this..I guess I spelled Baja wrong. >> >> >> >> http://www.bajafilters.com/ >> >> >> >> Cheers, Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > ] >> On >> Behalf Of Paul Wilson >> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:15 AM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank >> >> >> >> Hi Doug, >> >> In my opinion, I would really go for integral tanks rather than drop in >> or >> removable tanks. Having integral tanks is one of the great advantages of >> a >> metal boat. Cheaper and easier to build as well. Inspection and cleaning >> is possible as long as the access ports are large enough. You will >> eliminate problems of corrosion in an inaccessible area between the tank >> and >> the hull. I have known boats that had to dismantle an interior to remove >> a >> tank and get at a pinhole leak. Some just give up and add a bladder to a >> leaking tank. >> >> A low point drain is a good thing but not absolutely necessary. If you >> filter your fuel before it goes into the tank, you should have very few >> problems. My main tank is in the keel and dropping a hose into the tank >> and >> sucking a bit of fuel off the bottom once in awhile to check for water >> has >> worked well. In over 15 years, I have never had to clean the main tank. >> As >> long as fuel is well filtered for water before it goes into the tank, you >> shouldn't get slime or bacteria. The bacteria needs water to grow. Add a >> water dispersant or algae killer once in awhile. The idea of condensation >> causing water in a tank is a fallacy, in my opinion. The tank is full of >> fuel vapor, not air, so condensation shouldn't and in my experience >> doesn't >> form. I got a lot of water once into my day tank, but it came in through >> the vent line in rough weather. I think the vent lines are the culprit a >> lot of times. Buy a good water filter like a Baha filter that can handle >> the flow (more or less) from a fuel pump and you should be alright. If >> you >> can't afford or get a Baha filter, you can use a piece of felt in a large >> funnel to catch any water in the fuel. >> >> Cheers and good luck, >> >> Paul >> >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > >> [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> ] On >> Behalf Of djackson99@... > >> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 4:46 PM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank >> >> Thanks for the ideas everybody.? Sounds like removable tanks with good >> port >> access to every corner, would aid in cleaning, draining off the bottom.? >> --Doug J >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Mann > >> > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:30 pm >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Fuel Tank >> >> I would just weld the end in, unbolting it would not do much good you >> >> couldnt get past the first baffle. If the tanks in good shape after >> >> installing baffles you could make clean out ports on the top stradling >> the >> >> baffles. >> >> Tom >> >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:48 AM, > >> >> > wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Right.? A backing strip could go in to make welding it back together >> >>> easier. Would it be worth welding on bolt flanges instead so it could be >> >>> opened up again?? --Doug >> >>> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19416|19393|2009-01-18 01:27:08|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Fuel Tank|The fuel exspands and contracts as well with change in temp. Ever fill your car tank to the top a few blocks from home on a sunny day. The cool fuel from the under ground tank exspands in your tank and leaks out. Vaper from the fuel is only as much as the air can hold at a given temp. As it cools water vaper in outside air replaces some of the void from the fuel contracting and the air and fuel vaper contracting. Simple test instead of a match streach a condom over the vent with temp change it will inflate and deflate. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Gary and Terry, > > > > Ok, you guys have me 90% convinced.. I was thinking that the constant > vaporization of the fuel would always cause a vapor "flow" out the vent line > and not allow air back into the tank, even with it cooling. I must be wrong > then, right ? I am kind of reluctant to hold a match against the cooling > tanks vent line to test my theory.. > > > > Sorry, I don't want to be argumentative, I just want to understand and get > rid of the 10% doubt so I can call myself an expert J. > > > > Thanks, Paul > | 19417|19393|2009-01-18 12:56:49|mark hamill|Re: Fuel Tank|I went to a talk by a Naval ARch/Engineer and he said that if if there is an airspace it will eventually have some moisture migrating into it. In fuel tanks you also have an overflow or/and pressure relief valve which is connected directly to the outside air. My personal experience with contaminated fuel is that the source of it is the suppliers. Don't care how large a volume they may sell--some are really sloppy. This last summer I cleaned out probably 15 5 gallon gas tanks and the amount of crap in the fuel was amazing in all of them. There was only one source for the fuel--The marina. The oil soaker pads make a great filter placed in a funnel.| 19418|4173|2009-01-18 13:17:35|James Pronk|Charts|In the past I was able to download navigational charts on NOAA's website. Then they gave the option to Mapquest. I have downloaded the Mapquest Chart Navigator 5.08 but have been unable to download the chart I would like. Does anyone have experience at this or is there another website that has free downloadable charts? Thank you, James.| 19419|19393|2009-01-18 13:28:46|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Fuel Tank|Agreed. I went through about 10k litres / day of diesel some time (years) back. And we always tested for water. On Mig21bis apps ... ;) A few thousand litres would last about an hour. I suspect I may have some experience and formal training ..) Temp variations and empty air will over time cause condensation. The rest is a matter of degree. For large tanks, when they are carved 200ft in granite, and have less than 0.1 degree temp variations year-round, and are a few k cubic meters ie million of litres, they just dont vary enough to attract condensation. But it´s not our tanks case, and weneed to react accordingly. Grin ;) mark hamill wrote: > > I went to a talk by a Naval ARch/Engineer and he said that if if there > is an airspace it will > eventually have some moisture migrating into it. In fuel tanks you > also have an overflow > or/and pressure relief valve which is connected directly to the > outside air. My personal > experience with contaminated fuel is that the source of it is the > suppliers. Don't care how > large a volume they may sell--some are really sloppy. This last summer > I cleaned out > probably 15 5 gallon gas tanks and the amount of crap in the fuel was > amazing in all of > them. There was only one source for the fuel--The marina. The oil > soaker pads make a great > filter placed in a funnel. > > __._,_.__ | 19420|19420|2009-01-18 15:19:33|brianchabassol|Welding up side plates|I was wondering if anyone has had to weld up two smaller sheets to make one big enough for the side of a boat, I am unable to find a supplier of a sheet bigger than 20 feet long in my area. My main concern is that the weld would be visible as a long nasty horse rib down the side. Thanks Brian Chabassol 31 foot Swain| 19421|19420|2009-01-18 15:42:39|abellzey|Re: Welding up side plates|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone has had to weld up two smaller sheets to make > one big enough for the side of a boat, I am unable to find a supplier > of a sheet bigger than 20 feet long in my area. My main concern is that > the weld would be visible as a long nasty horse rib down the side. > Thanks > Brian Chabassol > 31 foot Swain > I spliced several sheets together to make the sides of my 40'er. I used two 20'x8' for each side and smaller pieces added to the bottom to complete them. You have to be careful to align them properly and stitch them evenly. When you pull the side together the joints fair them selves out nicely.| 19422|19420|2009-01-18 16:06:09|thesnotrocket|Re: Welding up side plates|There's a diagram in the files section showing how to get 31' sides out of 3 20'x8' sheets. http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QIpzSYbOdOP1FGn_S1ZTKOihx7jhBbzX9Lsir3F78W91p8SjSMrHjr1vhVMk4VE7D9JStjxFMSZh_KTeP7x-hWJS3uYht4RhNLte/31%27%20hull%20from%203%20x%2020%27x8%27%20sheets.gif I'll probably go this way myself. It's not that hard to keep 3/16" fair, 1/8" would be a different story. -Dave --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone has had to weld up two smaller sheets to make > one big enough for the side of a boat, I am unable to find a supplier > of a sheet bigger than 20 feet long in my area. My main concern is that > the weld would be visible as a long nasty horse rib down the side. > Thanks > Brian Chabassol > 31 foot Swain > | 19423|19423|2009-01-18 16:36:00|lachica31|Foaming - What I have learnt|Having now had La Chica fully foam sprayed (average thickness 40mmm) from cabin sole port to cabin sole starboard everywhere in fact except for the bilge, I would like to make some comments. Before you start, mask everything you do not want foam on. Use plastic on large areas and the blue masking tape to stick it on. Use masking tape on it's own in the small or narrow areas. Don't use the white masking tape or as our foam man suggest the brown parcel tape, both are hard to get off as they stick too well and breakup when you try to pull the stuff off. As Brent has suggested. Forget your excitement and don't let the foam man go away before you have carefully checked every square millimetre of the foamed area. You will find holidays, especially where shadows formed while spraying. Look closely next to frames and stringers. That is where you are most likely to find the holidays. Flat surfaces seem to cause little problem but stick a stiff piece of wire (mark the depth you want with a piece of tape) through the foam to check the depths at random intervals. Fortunately, if you have built one of Brent's boats, the shadow problem will be minimal as there are few to no transversals but check those stringers. Clean up! The Elephant in the room. It is very hard to control the exact depth of the foam, resulting in a sometimes very uneven surface. My guy did a fairly good job on the hull sides but overhead was very uneven and lots of fairing had to be done. After trying all the methods described in previous posts I settled on one. A 4inch (El Cheapo Chinese NZ$15.00) angle grinder with one of those 3M brillo pad type disks that they use for removing paint and rust from steel. This was very fast and accurate but it makes a hell of a mess. You need a Tyvek disposable suit and a full face respirator (covers eyes as well, I used the 3M product). I tried at first with a half mast and goggles but the dust kept on getting into the goggles and then into my eyes. With the grinder, it took one full day (8.5 hours) to fair the hull and another day to clean up. For cleaning up you need a brush with firm bristles and a good vacuum cleaner. Brush the foam first, then vacuum. If I had stuck to the knife system, I would still be there. After clean up, I touched up with a knife, a surefrom tool (looks like a plane with a cheese grater attached) and a Japanese saw. I did not want to use the grinder again as it would have meant another major clean up. So try and get everything as right as possible before cleaning up fully. You will need to clean up in some spots while grinding, so as to see what is happening. You also need a static free cloth to wipe your visor every now and again as the dust sticks to everything. Lastly, I borrowed an airless spray unit from a friend and sprayed latex/acrylic water based paint onto the foam. You need to do this as the dust does not stop until you do it. It also seals the surface and gives it a firmish crust. You use lots of paint, I think I used around 25 Liters (on a 32Ft heavy displacement double-ender). Fortunately the paint was free, given to me by a friend who is caretaker for a large school. He was quite please to get rid of all the partly emptied cans in his paint locker. Lastly, It cost me NZ$1 200.00. This is cheaper that buying a kit and doing it your self (in NZ the kits would have cost around NZ$1700 and then you must still do the work). It was also both cheaper and much quicker than buying sheet foam and cutting and pressing it in. Hope the above helps other who will need to do this job at some point. Regards, Paul Thompson| 19424|19424|2009-01-18 16:43:56|lachica31|Useing exsisting exhaust manifold|Guys, I have converted La Chica to a keel cooling tank and a dry exhaust. I am wondering if there is any reason why I should not continue to use me existing manifold. It is aluminium with an integral coolant header tank and heat exchanger. I am thinking of removing the heat exchanger core and welding the ends shut. That will create a manifold surrounded by the tank. I will then just pump the coolant through the tank on the way back to the keel tank from the engine. Is there any reason why I should not do this? Regards, Paul Thompson| 19425|19420|2009-01-18 17:20:45|mauro gonzaga|Re: Welding up side plates|To reduce distortion you should hammer all the weld. This is called peening. Then grind flush. Of course you will have to use some filler in way but not so much. mauro --- On Sun, 1/18/09, brianchabassol wrote: From: brianchabassol Subject: [origamiboats] Welding up side plates To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009, 9:19 PM I was wondering if anyone has had to weld up two smaller sheets to make one big enough for the side of a boat, I am unable to find a supplier of a sheet bigger than 20 feet long in my area. My main concern is that the weld would be visible as a long nasty horse rib down the side. Thanks Brian Chabassol 31 foot Swain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19426|4173|2009-01-18 17:42:00|Paul Wilson|Re: Charts|Does this help? Go down to the RNC section. http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/staff/charts.htm#RNC Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Pronk Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 7:18 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Charts In the past I was able to download navigational charts on NOAA's website. Then they gave the option to Mapquest. I have downloaded the Mapquest Chart Navigator 5.08 but have been unable to download the chart I would like. Does anyone have experience at this or is there another website that has free downloadable charts? Thank you, James. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19427|19427|2009-01-18 18:36:28|lachica31|Getting back to Brent's wood burning stove :-)|If you put a hot water coil in, should you still use fire bricks? Or would it be in lieu off? Regards, Paul Thompson| 19428|19423|2009-01-18 21:37:43|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|Nice write up.? Thanks for taking the time. I grew up on the border of Mexico so I am curious how you come up "La Chica" as a name? Doug J Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: lachica31 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 3:35 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Foaming - What I have learnt Having now had La Chica fully foam sprayed (average thickness 40mmm) from cabin sole port to cabin sole starboard everywhere in fact except for the bilge, I would like to make some comments. Before you start, mask everything you do not want foam on. Use plastic on large areas and the blue masking tape to stick it on. Use masking tape on it's own in the small or narrow areas. Don't use the white masking tape or as our foam man suggest the brown parcel tape, both are hard to get off as they stick too well and breakup when you try to pull the stuff off. As Brent has suggested. Forget your excitement and don't let the foam man go away before you have carefully checked every square millimetre of the foamed area. You will find holidays, especially where shadows formed while spraying. Look closely next to frames and stringers. That is where you are most likely to find the holidays. Flat surfaces seem to cause little problem but stick a stiff piece of wire (mark the depth you want with a piece of tape) through the foam to check the depths at random intervals. Fortunately, if you have built one of Brent's boats, the shadow problem will be minimal as there are few to no transversals but check those stringers. Clean up! The Elephant in the room. It is very hard to control the exact depth of the foam, resulting in a sometimes very uneven surface. My guy did a fairly good job on the hull sides but overhead was very uneven and lots of fairing had to be done. After trying all the methods described in previous posts I settled on one. A 4inch (El Cheapo Chinese NZ$15.00) angle grinder with one of those 3M brillo pad type disks that they use for removing paint and rust from steel. This was very fast and accurate but it makes a hell of a mess. You need a Tyvek disposable suit and a full face respirator (covers eyes as well, I used the 3M product). I tried at first with a half mast and goggles but the dust kept on getting into the goggles and then into my eyes. With the grinder, it took one full day (8.5 hours) to fair the hull and another day to clean up. For cleaning up you need a brush with firm bristles and a good vacuum cleaner. Brush the foam first, then vacuum. If I had stuck to the knife system, I would still be there. After clean up, I touched up with a knife, a surefrom tool (looks like a plane with a cheese grater attached) and a Japanese saw. I did not want to use the grinder again as it would have meant another major clean up. So try and get everything as right as possible before cleaning up fully. You will need to clean up in some spots while grinding, so as to see what is happening. You also need a static free cloth to wipe your visor every now and again as the dust sticks to everything. Lastly, I borrowed an airless spray unit from a friend and sprayed latex/acrylic water based paint onto the foam. You need to do this as the dust does not stop until you do it. It also seals the surface and gives it a firmish crust. You use lots of paint, I think I used around 25 Liters (on a 32Ft heavy displacement double-ender). Fortunately the paint was free, given to me by a friend who is caretaker for a large school. He was quite please to get rid of all the partly emptied cans in his paint locker. Lastly, It cost me NZ$1 200.00. This is cheaper that buying a kit and doing it your self (in NZ the kits would have cost around NZ$1700 and then you must still do the work). It was also both cheaper and much quicker than buying sheet foam and cutting and pressing it in. Hope the above helps other who will need to do this job at some point. Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19429|19393|2009-01-18 22:12:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Fuel Tank|On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 11:07:54AM +0930, T & D Cain wrote: > Gary is right and Mr. Pascoe is not. His article would have been more useful > if he examined the fuel tank families more carefully and did the gas law > interpretation more thoroughly. Gotta agree with that one. In the Caribbean - or anywhere that the daily temperature variations do a merry dance around the dewpoint - not using the most rigorous care to both keep the water out of your fuel _and_ filter out whatever remains means blown injector nozzles shortly thereafter. Water - well, steam - will do that, and that can be a very bad "OOPS" when you're far from help. > Life wasn't meant to be easy, but we all use water separating filters don't > we? We also check for and remove any water from low temperature tank > bottoms? You bet - and this is a good point to remind anyone who's forgotten that water separators are meant to be serviced very, very regularly. Once they fill up - which doesn't take much water - they don't do you any good. Anyone who has looked at the muck that ends up in water separators, especially from fuel bought in questionable locations, tends to be religious about the procedure. And changing fuel filters, as well. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19430|19393|2009-01-18 22:40:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: Fuel Tank|On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 07:28:28PM +0100, gcode fi (hanermo) wrote: > Agreed. > > I went through about 10k litres / day of diesel some time (years) back. > And we always tested for water. > On Mig21bis apps ... ;) > A few thousand litres would last about an hour. Funny, I was pretty sure that a "balalaika" used jet fuel rather than diesel ("kerosin" as the Russians referred to the stuff.) But, of course, JP4 and such are even more sensitive (_much_ more) than diesel to water contamination. > For large tanks, when they are carved 200ft in granite, and have less > than 0.1 degree temp variations year-round, and are a few k cubic meters > ie million of litres, they just dont vary enough to attract > condensation. [laugh] Yeah, large-scale stuff can be pretty nice. At one point, I did some computer security consulting for a major Canadian oil and gas exploration company; their server farm was set up in a big building that they owned. As part of the survey, I asked them about their power arrangements. My liaison gave me an odd look, then led me down to the basement and showed me their setup: 1) They had storage batteries that would keep all their equipment running for 15 minutes; 2) A few minutes into that, their diesel generators would run up automatically - with fuel for 8 hours; 3) 6 hours into _that_ cycle, their big natural gas generators would fire up - and they were fed straight from a pipe tapped straight into a huge gas pocket *under their building* that they'd drilled down to. As I wrote in the informal notes in my checklist under "Power arrangements": "Long after the human race is dead and gone, their computers will still be running." :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19431|19423|2009-01-19 10:25:46|Bill Jaine|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|We have an inflatable (RIB) that has been battered a little and has a leak that we cannot trace. Has anyone tried/or has advice on filling it with foam?? Obviously the non-absorbent/closed cell type Thanks Bill > > Having now had La Chica fully foam sprayed (average thickness 40mmm) > > from cabin sole port to cabin sole starboard everywhere in fact except > ---------- ---------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.9/1900 - Release Date: 1/18/2009 12:11 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19432|19423|2009-01-19 14:56:30|Paul Wilson|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|I remember seeing one dinghy where that was done and it was a mess. I believe the owners threw it away. The foam gets dented every time you bump into anything and you end up with a loose bag on some lumpy foam. I would do what I can to find and repair the leak. Good luck, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Jaine Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 4:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Foaming - What I have learnt We have an inflatable (RIB) that has been battered a little and has a leak that we cannot trace. Has anyone tried/or has advice on filling it with foam?? Obviously the non-absorbent/closed cell type Thanks Bill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19433|19423|2009-01-19 16:21:45|Bill Jaine|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|AH..very good point, thank you Paul :-) Bill Paul Wilson wrote: > > I remember seeing one dinghy where that was done and it was a mess. I > believe the owners threw it away. The foam gets dented every time you bump > into anything and you end up with a loose bag on some lumpy foam. I would > do what I can to find and repair the leak. > > Good luck, Paul > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups. com ] On > Behalf Of Bill Jaine > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 4:26 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Foaming - What I have learnt > > We have an inflatable (RIB) that has been battered a little and has a > leak that we cannot trace. > Has anyone tried/or has advice on filling it with foam?? > Obviously the non-absorbent/ closed cell type > Thanks > > Bill > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.9/1900 - Release Date: 1/18/2009 12:11 PM > > ---------- ---------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.9/1900 - Release Date: 1/18/2009 12:11 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19434|4173|2009-01-19 16:59:16|brentswain38|Re: Charts|I don't know about downloads, but my used laptop came with Maxsea charts called Cmap. They are an absolute abortion, charts that look like they were drawn by six year olds. Entire groups of islands are not on them . Many dangerous rocks are either mislabeled , or not shown at all on the charts. Bays that dry are shown with deep water in them.I've heard similar stories about Cmap charts elewhere in the world. They are dangerous to use. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > In the past I was able to download navigational charts on NOAA's > website. Then they gave the option to Mapquest. I have downloaded the > Mapquest Chart Navigator 5.08 but have been unable to download the > chart I would like. Does anyone have experience at this or is there > another website that has free downloadable charts? > Thank you, James. > | 19435|19393|2009-01-19 17:13:59|brentswain38|Re: Fuel Tank|The top of the centreline tank on the 36 is a huge cooling fin that keeps the temperature very close to seawater temperature. If you throw a piece of foam down on top before closing the lid( floor) on it there will be very little variation in temperature. I have not heard of anyone having condensation problems with them. This would not be the case if the tanks were not welded in to the hull . With the plexi window in the inspection plate it is easy to keep an eye on the bottom of the tank for any problems. I have found that fully welding the sides to the hull shrinks them a bit causing a slight oilcanning . This may possibly be resolved by heating strips radiating out from the inspection plate hole , cherry red with the torch, then quenching them with cold water. You can make the inspection plate as big as you want, as long as you leave enough around the edges for the structural strength to support twin keels. I prefer to make it 2 ft by 3ft, straddleing the baffle, to enable me to put my head in and see every sq inch of the inside of the tank or reach every sq inch within arms length. With the single keel, the tank is non structural, and you can make the inspection lid as big as you want. One client with a single keel, welded 4 inch by 4 inch ( 100mm ) angle around the edges and thus made the entire tank top removeable, far more removeable than most so called "Removeable" tanks with the interior built over them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > > Agreed. > > I went through about 10k litres / day of diesel some time (years) back. > And we always tested for water. > On Mig21bis apps ... ;) > A few thousand litres would last about an hour. > > I suspect I may have some experience and formal training ..) > Temp variations and empty air will over time cause condensation. > The rest is a matter of degree. > > For large tanks, when they are carved 200ft in granite, and have less > than 0.1 degree temp variations year-round, and are a few k cubic meters > ie million of litres, they just dont vary enough to attract > condensation. But it´s not our tanks case, and weneed to react accordingly. > Grin ;) > > > mark hamill wrote: > > > > I went to a talk by a Naval ARch/Engineer and he said that if if there > > is an airspace it will > > eventually have some moisture migrating into it. In fuel tanks you > > also have an overflow > > or/and pressure relief valve which is connected directly to the > > outside air. My personal > > experience with contaminated fuel is that the source of it is the > > suppliers. Don't care how > > large a volume they may sell--some are really sloppy. This last summer > > I cleaned out > > probably 15 5 gallon gas tanks and the amount of crap in the fuel was > > amazing in all of > > them. There was only one source for the fuel--The marina. The oil > > soaker pads make a great > > filter placed in a funnel. > > > > __._,_.__ > | 19436|19420|2009-01-19 17:23:53|brentswain38|Re: Welding up side plates|I used a 20 and a 12 for my 31. You can't see any sign of a seam. With the plates flat on the ground , grind a 45 degree bevel on one side for full penetration. Then tack it together and tack big pieces of plate on edge accross the seam every 6 inches to keep it from pulling either way. Make sure the plates line up before doing the full welds. Then carefully put down 2 inch welds of 1/8th inch 7024, letting each weld cool completely before putting another weld next to it. Keep checking the alignment with a straight edge, while welding . After the hull is puled together , grind the seams from the outside with a 1/8th gringing disc, grinding only deep enoug to find solid metal and no crack. Then do 2 inch uphand welds with 1/8th inch 6011, putting only tiny welds on so it won't pull. They will be ground flush so there is no need to put any more weld than it takes to level it. Let each weld cool completely before putting another next to it. Kep checking each weld after it cool,s with astraight edge. I'm in Comox , and can give you a hand with it if you need it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone has had to weld up two smaller sheets to make > one big enough for the side of a boat, I am unable to find a supplier > of a sheet bigger than 20 feet long in my area. My main concern is that > the weld would be visible as a long nasty horse rib down the side. > Thanks > Brian Chabassol > 31 foot Swain > | 19437|19215|2009-01-19 17:25:18|brentswain38|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House for Idiots" Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 08:24:47AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't recall reading anything by Burkhardt, > > > > > > Burkhardt predated Thesiger by about 100 years - he was in what is now > > > Saudi Arabia around 1812 IIRC. First European to get to Mecca I think. > > > The interesting part is, how little attitudes have changed. > > > > > > but I first ran across > > > > Thesiger about two years ago. Excellent, stark characterization > of the > > > > Arab cultures by a man who grew up there, knew them intimately, and > > > > spent a large part of his life exploring the area. I don't recall > > > > exactly, but looking over Wikipedia's list of his books, I think > it was > > > > "Crossing the Sands" that I read. I'll join you in recommending > him to > > > > anyone who wants to understand the Middle East. > > > > > > 'The Marsh Arabs' is a great read. It's a pity your leadership didn't > > > read and understand it BEFORE invading Iraq. > > > > [sigh] Peter, if it was up to me, Bush would have been impeached the day > > after his [non-]response on 9/11. I watched the growing insanity of > > Afghanistan and Iraq with absolute horror and frustration at not being > > able to do anything to stop it, and I watched Bush spit on and destroy > > the incredible outpouring of support that we got from the entire world > > after 9/11. I'm an American, and Bush, to my great shame, represented > > America for eight long years... and if I could have done anything to > > prevent or change that, I would have. I couldn't. > > Actually, going into Afghanistan wasn't all bad, but I don't think > they thought it through. Should have been strictly a decapitation > mission and leave. Tell the locals to sort their own affairs out with > the promise that the next lot would be up against the wall if they > kept on with the same old. > > And I shed no tears for Hussein. He deserved what he got. It was the > sheer irrelevance (in terms of the BS WOT) and the total lack of > consideration for what would happen NEXT that infuriated me. A 3 way > civil war between the Sunnis, Shias and Kurds was guaranteed, with > Turkey and Iran meddling, Turkey because they didn't want their Kurds > getting ideas, Iran ditto *and* supporting the Shias. Aaargh. > > Outpouring of support - the USA lost mine when they started acting the > same as their opponents. Torture is torture and once you start, there > goes your moral superiority. That was it for me. You guys are going to > have to wait a long time to live down Guantanamo Bay and when your > people eventually end up on the receiving end, you've got no grounds > for complaint. That coupled with 'extraordinary rendition' AKA > kidnapping and torture should make any US businessman shiver when > going places. If terrorism is a matter of definition, and kidnapping & > torture is OK, the world has got a lot more risky. > > > > > Growing up in Russia and being intimately familiar with Central Asia and > > the people who live there gave me a lot of insight into how Arabs think > > and what their responses would be in that situation. Going to war in > > Iraq was the *stupidest* possible move that could be made - and yet, it > > happened. > > Heh. I worked with some Siberians at one point and their fav saying > was 'Nobody going to shoot you for being wrong'. Was an interesting > insight into the culture they'd left... > > > The way it's structured, it would take years and years to dismantle the > > whole mechanism of bureaucracy around it - and *that* would take the > > American populace getting over their fear of nuclear energy. I don't > > hold out much hope in that direction. > > Oh, I don't disagree with you. People are brainwashed and fearful > about nukes. Most don't realise that the difference between a nuke > power plant and a fossil fuelled one is the heat source for the steam. > > > > The solution to people like that is to pull the plug on them and leave > > > them to their principles. Let's see how many green thoughts it takes > > > to run a hospital, for example. > > > > Heh. Cute, but - without CA, AZ has no _food._ Ever notice that constant > > stream of trucks headed up I-10? > > Shrug. A lot of the 'fresh' food I bought in supermarkets was crap > anyway. They could import from Australia & NZ cheaper and get better > quality. Our ag standards WRT pesticide residues etc are at least as > rigorous as yours, unlike (say) Mexico and China. Not like there's all > that many people in AZ to feed, after all. The trade barriers on > agricultural produce certainly aren't there to protect Arizonans from > competition! > > Only another 2 or 3 weeks working in Sydney and I can get back to my > workshop and boats. Can't wait... > > PDW > | 19438|19427|2009-01-19 17:27:48|brentswain38|Re: Getting back to Brent's wood burning stove :-)|I asked my father, a steam engineer all his life, what the expansion on a 2 inch exhuast pipe at 1200 degrees would be, and he said "1/4 inch in 15 feet."I don't think expansion of a coil in a wood stove would be an issue. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > If you put a hot water coil in, should you still use fire bricks? Or > would it be in lieu off? > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 19439|19423|2009-01-19 17:29:59|brentswain38|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|Foam does absorb water over time. I found super glue glues gumboots in a way that lasts the life of the sole. I believe it may also be far better for inflatables. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I remember seeing one dinghy where that was done and it was a mess. I > believe the owners threw it away. The foam gets dented every time you bump > into anything and you end up with a loose bag on some lumpy foam. I would > do what I can to find and repair the leak. > > > > Good luck, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Bill Jaine > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 4:26 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Foaming - What I have learnt > > > > We have an inflatable (RIB) that has been battered a little and has a > leak that we cannot trace. > Has anyone tried/or has advice on filling it with foam?? > Obviously the non-absorbent/closed cell type > Thanks > > Bill > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19440|19393|2009-01-19 19:59:57|mark hamill|Re: Fuel Tank|I heard of a neat trick that would work well with Brents Plexi viewing port--pour several or more drops of food coloring into your fuel and when it touches the water it is immediately makes the water visible--I use blue. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19441|19441|2009-01-19 20:07:35|brianchabassol|Side plates|Thanks to everyone who wrote with advice on the sideplates for my 31. And thanks Brent for the offer but Im now on the other side of Canada so the commute would be a bit much. I do have a bit of advice to confirm what Brent said about making small welds and checking for square though. I just finished my first Keel tacked it together small welds one side then the other and it turned out perfect , the second no problem I rushed it however and ran my welds to long without tacking properly, it crept now Im grinding about four feet of good weld, No fun. Slow down and you will be further ahead. Brian| 19442|19423|2009-01-19 20:10:07|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|If I were going to try something like this I'd look for the foam they fill puncture proof tires with. It's made to flex continuously going down the road so I doubt it would get dented. May cost a fortune though! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jaine" To: Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Foaming - What I have learnt > We have an inflatable (RIB) that has been battered a little and has a > leak that we cannot trace. > Has anyone tried/or has advice on filling it with foam?? > Obviously the non-absorbent/closed cell type > Thanks > > Bill > >> >> Having now had La Chica fully foam sprayed (average thickness 40mmm) >> >> from cabin sole port to cabin sole starboard everywhere in fact except >> > > ---------- > > > ---------- > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.9/1900 - Release Date: 1/18/2009 > 12:11 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 19443|19423|2009-01-20 00:35:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 08:56:28AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I remember seeing one dinghy where that was done and it was a mess. I > believe the owners threw it away. The foam gets dented every time you bump > into anything and you end up with a loose bag on some lumpy foam. I would > do what I can to find and repair the leak. What I've seen echoes Paul's experience exactly. On the other hand, I've helped a friend goop his leaking dinghy (the fabric was wearing through in a number of places - no way to patch it) with the stuff that West Marine sells. http://tinyurl.com/a8x2pb (It wasn't exactly this stuff - this was several years ago.) It was a HUGE pain in the ass, at least because we decided to do it as well as possible. We rolled the dinghy over, ten times in a row, just to make sure that the glop had spread everywhere - and then we did it again, flipping it end-for-end. We were both completely exhausted by the time it was done, but the dinghy didn't leak again in all the time that I knew him (several years after that point.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19444|19423|2009-01-20 01:13:20|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|It is a rubber foam and is valconized as well as weighs a lot. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > If I were going to try something like this I'd look for the foam they fill > puncture proof tires with. It's made to flex continuously going down the > road so I doubt it would get dented. May cost a fortune though! > > Gary H. Lucas | 19445|19215|2009-01-20 05:18:29|peter_d_wiley|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House for Idiots" > Brent Big print. Short sentences. PDW| 19446|19215|2009-01-20 05:18:29|peter_d_wiley|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House for Idiots" > Brent Big print. Short sentences. PDW| 19447|19215|2009-01-20 07:02:27|Robert T. Meade|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|why do people write this stuff on this web site and then double send it. must be a canadian. Robert T. Meade Leesburg FL -----Original Message----- From: peter_d_wiley To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 5:18 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House for Idiots" > Brent Big print. Short sentences. PDW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19448|19215|2009-01-20 12:58:46|mark hamill|Re: Brents Wood Burning stove|Being a Canadian is a problem with the cold--our poor limbs are so jittery from freezing we cannot control our limbs and therefore sometimes ddddddouble post. However once the lakes thaw---- a Canadian becomes one "...who is capable of making love standing up in a canoe." Don't you noncanadians try this you'll drown. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert T. Meade" wrote: > > why do people write this stuff on this web site and then double send it. > > > must be a canadian. > > > > > > > > Robert T. Meade > > Leesburg FL > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: peter_d_wiley peter_d_wiley@... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 5:18 am > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" brentswain38@ > > wrote: > > > > > > I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House for > > Idiots" > > > Brent > > > > Big print. Short sentences. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19449|19420|2009-01-20 16:18:17|boatwayupnorth|Re: Welding up side plates|Dave, I cannot open this gif-file in the files section. Could you make a copy and send it to my e-mail address as an attachement? Appreciate it! Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "thesnotrocket" wrote: > > There's a diagram in the files section showing how to get 31' sides > out of 3 20'x8' sheets. > http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QIpzSYbOdOP1FGn_S1ZTKOihx7jhBbzX9Lsir3F78 W91p8SjSMrHjr1vhVMk4VE7D9JStjxFMSZh_KTeP7x-hWJS3uYht4RhNLte/31%27% 20hull%20from%203%20x%2020%27x8%27%20sheets.gif > I'll probably go this way myself. It's not that hard to keep 3/16" > fair, 1/8" would be a different story. > > -Dave > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" > wrote: > > > > I was wondering if anyone has had to weld up two smaller sheets to make > > one big enough for the side of a boat, I am unable to find a supplier > > of a sheet bigger than 20 feet long in my area. My main concern is that > > the weld would be visible as a long nasty horse rib down the side. > > Thanks > > Brian Chabassol > > 31 foot Swain > > > | 19450|19423|2009-01-20 17:07:24|brentswain38|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|A friend said he saw bike tires in Hawaii that someone bought from Wal Mart that was entirely urethane foam filled . I can't find them here , but some bikers have heard of them.Perhaps the foam you mention could be used to fill bike tires. Do you know what it is called , if it could be used that way, and where I can get some? Does it come in an aerosol can? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > If I were going to try something like this I'd look for the foam they fill > puncture proof tires with. It's made to flex continuously going down the > road so I doubt it would get dented. May cost a fortune though! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Jaine" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:25 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Foaming - What I have learnt > > > > We have an inflatable (RIB) that has been battered a little and has a > > leak that we cannot trace. > > Has anyone tried/or has advice on filling it with foam?? > > Obviously the non-absorbent/closed cell type > > Thanks > > > > Bill > > > >> > >> Having now had La Chica fully foam sprayed (average thickness 40mmm) > >> > >> from cabin sole port to cabin sole starboard everywhere in fact except > >> > > > > ---------- > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.9/1900 - Release Date: 1/18/2009 > > 12:11 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 19451|19423|2009-01-20 19:10:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 10:07:22PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > A friend said he saw bike tires in Hawaii that someone bought from Wal > Mart that was entirely urethane foam filled . I can't find them here , > but some bikers have heard of them.Perhaps the foam you mention could > be used to fill bike tires. Do you know what it is called , if it > could be used that way, and where I can get some? Does it come in an > aerosol can? The stuff is sold in the US as "Slime": http://www.jcwhitney.com/SLIME-TUBELESS-TIRE-SEALANT/GP_2014129_N_111+10209+600010354_10109.jcw Quoting from the ad: * Prevents AND repairs flats - treat your tire before a puncture * occurs or use it to repair a flat or slow leak * Seals punctures up to 1/4" * Simply remove the valve core from the tire valve, inject Slime®, * inflate and rotate tire Takes 15 minutes or less! You'll never have to worry about getting stranded with a flat again! Slime® remains liquid, evenly coating the inside of the tire. Lasts for 2 years. Nontoxic, nonaerosol, nonflammable and water-soluble. Great for all automotive tires plus ATV, lawn tractor, utility equipment and golf cart tires. Canadian Tire also carries it, according to their catalog. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19452|19423|2009-01-20 19:41:55|JFisher|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|Slime is not the same stuff. It is basically latex that seals punctures. They make foam tire inserts for motorcycles but in that application they can melt due to the heat in the tires. John -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 5:07 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Foaming - What I have learnt On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 10:07:22PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > A friend said he saw bike tires in Hawaii that someone bought from Wal > Mart that was entirely urethane foam filled . I can't find them here , > but some bikers have heard of them.Perhaps the foam you mention could > be used to fill bike tires. Do you know what it is called , if it > could be used that way, and where I can get some? Does it come in an > aerosol can? The stuff is sold in the US as "Slime": http://www.jcwhitney.com/SLIME-TUBELESS-TIRE-SEALANT/GP_2014129_N_111+10209+ 600010354_10109.jcw Quoting from the ad: * Prevents AND repairs flats - treat your tire before a puncture * occurs or use it to repair a flat or slow leak * Seals punctures up to 1/4" * Simply remove the valve core from the tire valve, inject SlimeR, * inflate and rotate tire Takes 15 minutes or less! You'll never have to worry about getting stranded with a flat again! SlimeR remains liquid, evenly coating the inside of the tire. Lasts for 2 years. Nontoxic, nonaerosol, nonflammable and water-soluble. Great for all automotive tires plus ATV, lawn tractor, utility equipment and golf cart tires. Canadian Tire also carries it, according to their catalog. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 19453|19423|2009-01-20 19:46:59|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|Yeah, but would it work to seal a leaking dinghy? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "JFisher" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:39 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Foaming - What I have learnt > Slime is not the same stuff. It is basically latex that seals punctures. > They make foam tire inserts for motorcycles but in that application they > can > melt due to the heat in the tires. > > John > | 19454|19454|2009-01-20 20:43:48|Michael Hess|AW: [origamiboats] Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|Simple answer NO! sorry A bit elaborated... Necessary for the stuff to work is a rotation (provided by the slowly driven tire) to produce a thin film which "hardens/vulcanise" fast and some heat which is provided also from the movement of the tire. Because of the lower pressure the tire heats up a little bit (for the same reason it is not good to drive a low pressure tire long time/fast). To seal a dingy there are 2 methods, double layer which is also used with life west's, or a special "gum" in the first layer (which is a bit thicker) which seals automatic by heat the provided from the impact of ammo. The latter is to my knowledge still just a wet dream from the military. Foaming the Dingy from inside, would never provide the stability or not destroying the dinghy skin material. There are some "no flat" tires on the market, for bicycle. motorbikes and cars. They all work with a relatively "solid" piece of foam made from non thermoplastic plastic. To use the same method for you dinghy, you need to press the foam into the dinghy form, cut open the dinghy and put it inside. I thing buying a different dinghy might be cheaper in the end... ;) - Michael ________________________________ Von: Gary H. Lucas An: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 21. Januar 2009, 09:46:55 Uhr Betreff: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Foaming - What I have learnt Yeah, but would it work to seal a leaking dinghy? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "JFisher" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:39 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Foaming - What I have learnt > Slime is not the same stuff. It is basically latex that seals punctures. > They make foam tire inserts for motorcycles but in that application they > can > melt due to the heat in the tires. > > John > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19455|19423|2009-01-20 20:51:21|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|In the U.K. they sell a Avon/Zodiac sealant to seal small holes in inflatables. I have used the commercially available sealandt and also have used best qualitylatex paint which appears to similar to the expensive specialised sealant. The method is to pur the latex paint through the valve in the almost inflated dingy, reinflate, tumble dingy around to spread the sealant and leave the dingy so that the suispected holes are down. while the stuff sets. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19456|19456|2009-01-21 06:27:29|kingsknight4life|Masts again|Hope everyone had a safe and happy holidays! Now, here's an actual post about boats 9NOt politics :0) ). Is a 40 ft mast too short for the 36 because I might have aline on one? rowland| 19457|19454|2009-01-21 10:36:44|SHANE ROTHWELL|AW: [origamiboats] Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|Brent, they also have the "flat proof" tires on wheelbarrows. probably the same foam __________________________________________________________________ Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/| 19458|19364|2009-01-21 11:40:17|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|Robert, In spite of "THE" Moron's denial of it, the truth never goes away, although, just like Hitler, Stalin and Mao (of which he's most definitely in company) he most thankfully did. His demise would be celebrated, world wide. At least there is a growning recognition of reality, and decency, with the election of Obama. At least he is talking of repealing the practices of the Spanish Inquisiton that bush, his cronies (and indirectly you, being an american????) instigated, perpetuated and supported. A good start, but as he has done nothing more than speak, we'll have to wait to see what actually happens. I, as many other, am hopeful. "why do people write this stuff on this web site and then double send it" you ask? Just so the words are not lost "I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House forIdiots" "must be a Canadian" you say....DAMED RIGHT! Shane Rothwell in British Columbia Posted by: "Robert T. Meade" meademd@... airescooter Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:02 am (PST) why do people write this stuff on this web site and then double send it. must be a canadian. Robert T. Meade Leesburg FL -----Original Message----- From: peter_d_wiley To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 5:18 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House for Idiots" > Brent Big print. Short sentences. PDW Being a Canadian is a problem with the cold--our poor limbs are so jittery from freezing we cannot control our limbs and therefore sometimes ddddddouble post. However once the lakes thaw---- a Canadian becomes one "...who is capable of making love standing up in a canoe." Don't you noncanadians try this you'll drown. > why do people write this stuff on this web site and then double send it. > > > must be a canadian. > > > > > > > > Robert T. Meade > > Leesburg FL > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: peter_d_wiley peter_d_wiley@ ... > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 5:18 am > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Wood Burning stove > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" brentswain38@ > > wrote: > > > > > > I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House for > > Idiots" > > > Brent > > > > Big print. Short sentences. > > > > PDW > > > __________________________________________________________________ Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php| 19459|19459|2009-01-21 13:30:52|John Waalkes|What I have learnt|I wouldn't use foam, but have used latex sealers, ie Slime, FixaFlat, West Marine sealant ect. The key seems to be use enough to complely cover affected area. I used on old and batterd 13' Campway raft, when I could not find all of the leaks. The heavy duty Slime seemed to work best. Grandson helped with the turning ect. Raft no longer needs constant attention. Just use more than you think. Latex paint should work for the pin hole leaks will try that next time. John ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Jaine" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:25 AM> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Foaming - What I have learnt> > > > We have an inflatable (RIB) that has been battered a little and has a> > leak that we cannot trace.> > Has anyone tried/or has advice on filling it with foam??> > Obviously the non-absorbent/closed cell type> > Thanks> >> > Bill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19460|19364|2009-01-21 13:50:39|Ray|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: Shane - You are as entitled to your thoughts as anyone else is, but, you are also entitled to share them in more appropiate places. Please, consider doing so in the future. You've got a nice boat goin' on - let's talk about it.| 19461|19456|2009-01-21 16:17:09|brentswain38|Re: Masts again|Yes that would be a bit short, but it''s not hard to add a bit to the bottom, where the weight of any sleeves would not have much effect on stability. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hope everyone had a safe and happy holidays! > > Now, here's an actual post about boats 9NOt politics :0) ). Is a 40 ft > mast too short for the 36 because I might have aline on one? > rowland > | 19462|19423|2009-01-21 16:19:12|brentswain38|Re: Foaming - What I have learnt|Doesn't sound like that kinda heat would be a problem in bicycle tires Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, JFisher wrote: > > Slime is not the same stuff. It is basically latex that seals punctures. > They make foam tire inserts for motorcycles but in that application they can > melt due to the heat in the tires. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 5:07 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Foaming - What I have learnt > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 10:07:22PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > A friend said he saw bike tires in Hawaii that someone bought from Wal > > Mart that was entirely urethane foam filled . I can't find them here , > > but some bikers have heard of them.Perhaps the foam you mention could > > be used to fill bike tires. Do you know what it is called , if it > > could be used that way, and where I can get some? Does it come in an > > aerosol can? > > The stuff is sold in the US as "Slime": > > http://www.jcwhitney.com/SLIME-TUBELESS-TIRE-SEALANT/GP_2014129_N_111+10209+ > 600010354_10109.jcw > > Quoting from the ad: > > * Prevents AND repairs flats - treat your tire before a puncture > * occurs or use it to repair a flat or slow leak > * Seals punctures up to 1/4" > * Simply remove the valve core from the tire valve, inject SlimeR, > * inflate and rotate tire > > Takes 15 minutes or less! You'll never have to worry about getting > stranded with a flat again! SlimeR remains liquid, evenly coating the > inside of the tire. Lasts for 2 years. Nontoxic, nonaerosol, > nonflammable and water-soluble. Great for all automotive tires plus ATV, > lawn tractor, utility equipment and golf cart tires. > > Canadian Tire also carries it, according to their catalog. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > | 19463|19364|2009-01-21 22:08:58|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|I thought you where talking about Obamas historical mentors then I saw you only listen to the ones with liberal arts degrees. You realy need to get the other side for balance Try the Canadian Free Press. Somwhere in the middle is the truth. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Robert, > > In spite of "THE" Moron's denial of it, the truth never goes away, although, just like Hitler, Stalin and Mao (of which he's most definitely in company) he most thankfully did. His demise would be celebrated, world wide. > > At least there is a growning recognition of reality, and decency, with the election of Obama. At least he is talking of repealing the practices of the Spanish Inquisiton that bush, his cronies (and indirectly you, being an american????) instigated, perpetuated and supported. A good start, but as he has done nothing more than speak, we'll have to wait to see what actually happens. I, as many other, am hopeful. > > "why do people write this stuff on this web site and then double send it" you ask? > > Just so the words are not lost "I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House forIdiots" > > > "must be a Canadian" you say....DAMED RIGHT! > > Shane Rothwell in British Columbia | 19464|19364|2009-01-21 22:12:54|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|Can we take this discussion off of the list please? While it is important, there are many other forums that are devoted to the subject. I would like to get back to boats. Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas As scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. -Josh Billings From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove I thought you where talking about Obamas historical mentors then I saw you only listen to the ones with liberal arts degrees. You realy need to get the other side for balance Try the Canadian Free Press. Somwhere in the middle is the truth. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Robert, > > In spite of "THE" Moron's denial of it, the truth never goes away, although, just like Hitler, Stalin and Mao (of which he's most definitely in company) he most thankfully did. His demise would be celebrated, world wide. > > At least there is a growning recognition of reality, and decency, with the election of Obama. At least he is talking of repealing the practices of the Spanish Inquisiton that bush, his cronies (and indirectly you, being an american????) instigated, perpetuated and supported. A good start, but as he has done nothing more than speak, we'll have to wait to see what actually happens. I, as many other, am hopeful. > > "why do people write this stuff on this web site and then double send it" you ask? > > Just so the words are not lost "I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House forIdiots" > > > "must be a Canadian" you say....DAMED RIGHT! > > Shane Rothwell in British Columbia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19465|19364|2009-01-21 23:57:09|kingsknight4life|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jay K. Jeffries" wrote: > > Can we take this discussion off of the list please? While it is important, > there are many other forums that are devoted to the subject. I would like > to get back to boats. > > > > Respectfully, > > Jay K. Jeffries > > Andros Is., Bahamas I second that. While I do enjoy the fact that our on-line community does discuss things beyond Origami boats and sailing/cruising, (it is part of its charm), I think this discussion is taking over the group. I know some memners here enjoy talking politics but this little "side track" off topic has taken over and has a life of its own. Just my respectful 02 cents Rowland| 19466|19420|2009-01-22 00:44:50|thesnotrocket|Re: Welding up side plates|Hi Walter, this software doesn't seem to want to let me view your whole email or send an attachment through the group so i just uploaded it to TinyPic. http://i44.tinypic.com/2hr0mdi.jpg Let me know if that works for you. -Dave --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "boatwayupnorth" wrote: > > Dave, I cannot open this gif-file in the files section. Could you > make a copy and send it to my e-mail address as an attachement? > Appreciate it! > Walter > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "thesnotrocket" > wrote: > > > > There's a diagram in the files section showing how to get 31' sides > > out of 3 20'x8' sheets. > > > http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QIpzSYbOdOP1FGn_S1ZTKOihx7jhBbzX9Lsir3F78 > W91p8SjSMrHjr1vhVMk4VE7D9JStjxFMSZh_KTeP7x-hWJS3uYht4RhNLte/31%27% > 20hull%20from%203%20x%2020%27x8%27%20sheets.gif > > I'll probably go this way myself. It's not that hard to keep 3/16" > > fair, 1/8" would be a different story. > > > > -Dave > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" > > wrote: > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone has had to weld up two smaller sheets > to make > > > one big enough for the side of a boat, I am unable to find a > supplier > > > of a sheet bigger than 20 feet long in my area. My main concern > is that > > > the weld would be visible as a long nasty horse rib down the side. > > > Thanks > > > Brian Chabassol > > > 31 foot Swain > > > > > > | 19467|19364|2009-01-22 08:56:53|Knut F Garshol|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|AMEN Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay K. Jeffries Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:08 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove Can we take this discussion off of the list please? While it is important, there are many other forums that are devoted to the subject. I would like to get back to boats. Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas As scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. -Josh Billings From: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com [mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com] On Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:09 PM To: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove I thought you where talking about Obamas historical mentors then I saw you only listen to the ones with liberal arts degrees. You realy need to get the other side for balance Try the Canadian Free Press. Somwhere in the middle is the truth. Jon --- In HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com , SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Robert, > > In spite of "THE" Moron's denial of it, the truth never goes away, although, just like Hitler, Stalin and Mao (of which he's most definitely in company) he most thankfully did. His demise would be celebrated, world wide. > > At least there is a growning recognition of reality, and decency, with the election of Obama. At least he is talking of repealing the practices of the Spanish Inquisiton that bush, his cronies (and indirectly you, being an american????-) instigated, perpetuated and supported. A good start, but as he has done nothing more than speak, we'll have to wait to see what actually happens. I, as many other, am hopeful. > > "why do people write this stuff on this web site and then double send it" you ask? > > Just so the words are not lost "I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House forIdiots" > > > "must be a Canadian" you say....DAMED RIGHT! > > Shane Rothwell in British Columbia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.10/1906 - Release Date: 1/21/2009 7:07 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 1/22/2009 7:08 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19468|19364|2009-01-22 08:56:59|Knut F Garshol|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|Jon, this can easily end up in a �discussion� like you just had about global warming etc. Nobody ever convinced anybody or �won� this kind of �discussion� so please drop it. We all know where you stand and there is nothing new you can contribute that anyone wants to hear, unless by chance it would be about boats :-)) Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove I thought you where talking about Obamas historical mentors then I saw you only listen to the ones with liberal arts degrees. You realy need to get the other side for balance Try the Canadian Free Press. Somwhere in the middle is the truth. Jon --- In HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Robert, > > In spite of "THE" Moron's denial of it, the truth never goes away, although, just like Hitler, Stalin and Mao (of which he's most definitely in company) he most thankfully did. His demise would be celebrated, world wide. > > At least there is a growning recognition of reality, and decency, with the election of Obama. At least he is talking of repealing the practices of the Spanish Inquisiton that bush, his cronies (and indirectly you, being an american????-) instigated, perpetuated and supported. A good start, but as he has done nothing more than speak, we'll have to wait to see what actually happens. I, as many other, am hopeful. > > "why do people write this stuff on this web site and then double send it" you ask? > > Just so the words are not lost "I hear Bush is writing his memoirs . It is called "White House forIdiots" > > > "must be a Canadian" you say....DAMED RIGHT! > > Shane Rothwell in British Columbia No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.10/1906 - Release Date: 1/21/2009 7:07 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 1/22/2009 7:08 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19469|19420|2009-01-22 09:55:16|mkriley48|fixing leaky rafts|as a last resort you can cut a slit in the inside of the tube and install gromets so it can be laced back together. then put truck innertubes inside and inflate. Foam makes the boat too heavy to lift! mike| 19470|19364|2009-01-22 11:52:59|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|Gentlemen, Quite right, not the venue. it was what appeared to be the defence of that son of a bitch bush that got me going. Will endevour not to react in future. How about we all just keep the filth of politics out as much as possible? As suggested, Back to BOATS! Shane Posted by: "kingsknight4life" wildcatbjj@... kingsknight4life Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:57 pm (PST) --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Jay K. Jeffries" wrote: > > Can we take this discussion off of the list please? While it is important, > there are many other forums that are devoted to the subject. I would like > to get back to boats. > > > > Respectfully, > > Jay K. Jeffries > > Andros Is., Bahamas I second that. While I do enjoy the fact that our on-line community does discuss things beyond Origami boats and sailing/cruising, (it is part of its charm), I think this discussion is taking over the group. I know some memners here enjoy talking politics but this little "side track" off topic has taken over and has a life of its own. Just my respectful 02 cents Rowland __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/| 19471|19420|2009-01-22 15:51:50|boatwayupnorth|Re: Welding up side plates|Got it! Thanks a lot, Dave! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "thesnotrocket" wrote: > > > Hi Walter, this software doesn't seem to want to let me view your > whole email or send an attachment through the group so i just uploaded > it to TinyPic. http://i44.tinypic.com/2hr0mdi.jpg Let me know if > that works for you. > > -Dave > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "boatwayupnorth" > wrote: > > > > Dave, I cannot open this gif-file in the files section. Could you > > make a copy and send it to my e-mail address as an attachement? > > Appreciate it! > > Walter > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "thesnotrocket" > > wrote: > > > > > > There's a diagram in the files section showing how to get 31' sides > > > out of 3 20'x8' sheets. > > > > > http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QIpzSYbOdOP1FGn_S1ZTKOihx7jhBbzX9Lsir3F78 > > W91p8SjSMrHjr1vhVMk4VE7D9JStjxFMSZh_KTeP7x-hWJS3uYht4RhNLte/31%27% > > 20hull%20from%203%20x%2020%27x8%27%20sheets.gif > > > I'll probably go this way myself. It's not that hard to keep 3/16" > > > fair, 1/8" would be a different story. > > > > > > -Dave > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone has had to weld up two smaller sheets > > to make > > > > one big enough for the side of a boat, I am unable to find a > > supplier > > > > of a sheet bigger than 20 feet long in my area. My main concern > > is that > > > > the weld would be visible as a long nasty horse rib down the side. > > > > Thanks > > > > Brian Chabassol > > > > 31 foot Swain > > > > > > > > > > | 19472|19472|2009-01-22 20:23:18|mark hamill|Trim Tabs|Reading Brents diagram on the trim tab and remote location and how does the trim tab actually work??? On a tiller boat does it provide the power which actually makes the main rudder turn?? Or does one lash the tiller and let the trim tab do its thing?? Can one have a trim tab for a wheel steered boat then? Thanks for your help, Markh| 19473|19079|2009-01-22 22:54:23|James Pronk|Re: VW Jetta|Hello All I have been shopping for a transmission for my diesel engine and I found a Hurth H.B.W. 150 with a 2.00 : 1 Ratio for $1000 dollers. This transmission was taken off a brand new engine that needed a different angle. Would this be good or should I keep shopping around? James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Make sure you set the linkage properly on your Hurth. It is critical that > the shift lever goes full travel or the clutch will slip a bit and burn up. > Many people have problems with Hurths and it most often the setting of the > shift lever that caused it to fail. The 250 series should be great. Some > engines had a 100 series when they came out which was inadequate. I have > the 150 series and it has been no trouble for 15 years on my Isuzu 35. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of James Pronk > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:13 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: VW Jetta > > > > Hello All > I just came across this HURTH MARINE TRANSMISSION Gearbox HBW 250- 2R. > It has a gear ratio of 1.88:1. would this be a good mate to the 1.5 > liter VW diesel? > Thank you and Happy New Year to you all, > James Pronk. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19474|19079|2009-01-23 05:33:45|peter_d_wiley|Re: VW Jetta|You buy the g/box and the following week you find 3, all cheaper and closer to home. If it's going to do the job and you can afford it, buy it and move onto the next issue. Worked for me. The only thing I'd say is to consider what rpm you're going to run the engine at, to ensure 2:1 is enough reduction. I have a 3.3:1 box I'm going to fit to a Yanmar 30 HP engine that runs at 2600 rpm at its continuous power rating. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Hello All > I have been shopping for a transmission for my diesel engine and I > found a Hurth H.B.W. 150 with a 2.00 : 1 Ratio for $1000 dollers. > This transmission was taken off a brand new engine that needed a > different angle. Would this be good or should I keep shopping around? > James. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > Make sure you set the linkage properly on your Hurth. It is > critical that > > the shift lever goes full travel or the clutch will slip a bit and > burn up. > > Many people have problems with Hurths and it most often the setting > of the > > shift lever that caused it to fail. The 250 series should be > great. Some > > engines had a 100 series when they came out which was inadequate. > I have > > the 150 series and it has been no trouble for 15 years on my Isuzu > 35. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of James Pronk > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:13 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: VW Jetta > > > > > > > > Hello All > > I just came across this HURTH MARINE TRANSMISSION Gearbox HBW 250- > 2R. > > It has a gear ratio of 1.88:1. would this be a good mate to the 1.5 > > liter VW diesel? > > Thank you and Happy New Year to you all, > > James Pronk. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19475|19475|2009-01-23 17:05:18|eulachon@ymail.com|DIY whisker pole?|Hey Everyone, I'm new to this group, and I'm a big fan of both Brent's philosophy of empowered DIY sailing, and his excellent book, Building a Better Steel Boat. I'm also friend to more than one Brentboat owner. I bought a steel cutter last season, and among other upgrades, am fitting it out with a whisker pole. My J is 23ft, and I have a steel "Brentmast". If you'll be so kind as to indulge me, I have two questions: 1) does the pole need to be the full length of my J (for furling in and tacking)? 2)Can I fabricate a pole that would do the trick and be very sturdy? Eulachon| 19476|19475|2009-01-23 19:22:44|brentswain38|Re: DIY whisker pole?|The longer the pole the better, as long as you can reach the end from the pulpit if things foul out there. All you need for a pole is a piece of aluminium tubing or pipe. 1 1/2 inch sch 40 aluminium pipe is adequate for a 31, and probably for a 36 altho 2 inch would be safer. For bigger boats a larger diameter pipe with a thinner wall would help keep the weight down. Check the scrapyards and you may find something to do the trick. Larger diameter with thiner walls are stiffer, but lose more strength than sch 40 if you dent them, especially if you go too thin. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "eulachon@..." wrote: > > Hey Everyone, > > I'm new to this group, and I'm a big fan of both Brent's philosophy of > empowered DIY sailing, and his excellent book, Building a Better Steel > Boat. I'm also friend to more than one Brentboat owner. > > I bought a steel cutter last season, and among other upgrades, am > fitting it out with a whisker pole. My J is 23ft, and I have a steel > "Brentmast". > > If you'll be so kind as to indulge me, I have two questions: > 1) does the pole need to be the full length of my J (for furling in > and tacking)? > 2)Can I fabricate a pole that would do the trick and be very sturdy? > > Eulachon > | 19477|19079|2009-01-23 19:24:55|brentswain38|Re: VW Jetta|That will do the job. A 150 is a huge jump in strength and reliability from a 100 , mechainics tell me. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > You buy the g/box and the following week you find 3, all cheaper and > closer to home. > > If it's going to do the job and you can afford it, buy it and move > onto the next issue. Worked for me. > > The only thing I'd say is to consider what rpm you're going to run the > engine at, to ensure 2:1 is enough reduction. I have a 3.3:1 box I'm > going to fit to a Yanmar 30 HP engine that runs at 2600 rpm at its > continuous power rating. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > > > Hello All > > I have been shopping for a transmission for my diesel engine and I > > found a Hurth H.B.W. 150 with a 2.00 : 1 Ratio for $1000 dollers. > > This transmission was taken off a brand new engine that needed a > > different angle. Would this be good or should I keep shopping around? > > James. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > Make sure you set the linkage properly on your Hurth. It is > > critical that > > > the shift lever goes full travel or the clutch will slip a bit and > > burn up. > > > Many people have problems with Hurths and it most often the setting > > of the > > > shift lever that caused it to fail. The 250 series should be > > great. Some > > > engines had a 100 series when they came out which was inadequate. > > I have > > > the 150 series and it has been no trouble for 15 years on my Isuzu > > 35. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of James Pronk > > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:13 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: VW Jetta > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > I just came across this HURTH MARINE TRANSMISSION Gearbox HBW 250- > > 2R. > > > It has a gear ratio of 1.88:1. would this be a good mate to the 1.5 > > > liter VW diesel? > > > Thank you and Happy New Year to you all, > > > James Pronk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 19478|19472|2009-01-23 19:29:00|brentswain38|Re: Trim Tabs|You leave the tiller free and the trimtab pushes the traling edge of the rudder over. You would have to have a way to completely disconnect the wheel, altho once you have experienced trimtab steering ,you may not have much use for a wheel. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Reading Brents diagram on the trim tab and remote location and how does the trim tab > actually work??? On a tiller boat does it provide the power which actually makes the main > rudder turn?? Or does one lash the tiller and let the trim tab do its thing?? Can one have a > trim tab for a wheel steered boat then? > Thanks for your help, Markh > | 19479|19364|2009-01-23 19:30:28|brentswain38|Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove|Take it to Canadian Politics yahoo groups Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Jon, > > > > this can easily end up in a "discussion" like you just had about global > warming etc. > > > > Nobody ever convinced anybody or "won" this kind of "discussion" so please > drop it. > We all know where you stand and there is nothing new you can contribute that > > anyone wants to hear, unless by chance it would be about boats :-)) > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:09 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's Wood Burning Stove > > > > I thought you where talking about Obamas historical mentors then I > saw you only listen to the ones with liberal arts degrees. You realy > need to get the other side for balance Try the Canadian Free Press. > Somwhere in the middle is the truth. > > Jon > > --- In HYPERLINK > "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@..., SHANE > ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Robert, > > > > In spite of "THE" Moron's denial of it, the truth never goes away, > although, just like Hitler, Stalin and Mao (of which he's most > definitely in company) he most thankfully did. His demise would be > celebrated, world wide. > > > > At least there is a growning recognition of reality, and decency, > with the election of Obama. At least he is talking of repealing the > practices of the Spanish Inquisiton that bush, his cronies (and > indirectly you, being an american????-) instigated, perpetuated and > supported. A good start, but as he has done nothing more than speak, > we'll have to wait to see what actually happens. I, as many other, am > hopeful. > > > > "why do people write this stuff on this web site and then double > send it" you ask? > > > > Just so the words are not lost "I hear Bush is writing his > memoirs . It is called "White House forIdiots" > > > > > > "must be a Canadian" you say....DAMED RIGHT! > > > > Shane Rothwell in British Columbia > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.10/1906 - Release Date: 1/21/2009 > 7:07 AM > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 1/22/2009 > 7:08 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19480|19480|2009-01-23 22:12:32|Martin Demers|alcool stoves|Hi, I just bought an" origo" alcool stove and I now have to buy some alcool to use it. in the instructions they mention to use only denatured alcool (ethanol) and not use methyl hydrate (methanol). Is it what most people do or does some also use methyl hydrate? I ask because on the methyl hydrate container they mention that it is good for non pressurized boat stoves (the origo is non pressurized) Martin.| 19481|19475|2009-01-23 22:17:14|silascrosby|Re: DIY whisker pole?|I have never regretted having a 16'pole for a 13' J measurement ( 23' J ,that's a good-sized boat!), I started with 17' and cut some off. It really stretches the jib to make use of the sail area and minimise wear and tear in a seaway. Two inch diam sched 40 with home-brew end fittings. I have certainly dented, kinked and rendered useless a thin-walled but larger tube.It needs to take some good whacks. I raise the inboard end on a track to get it inside the forestay and staysail stay. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "eulachon@..." wrote: > > Hey Everyone, > > I'm new to this group, and I'm a big fan of both Brent's philosophy of > empowered DIY sailing, and his excellent book, Building a Better Steel > Boat. I'm also friend to more than one Brentboat owner. > > I bought a steel cutter last season, and among other upgrades, am > fitting it out with a whisker pole. My J is 23ft, and I have a steel > "Brentmast". > > If you'll be so kind as to indulge me, I have two questions: > 1) does the pole need to be the full length of my J (for furling in > and tacking)? > 2)Can I fabricate a pole that would do the trick and be very sturdy? > > Eulachon > | 19482|19079|2009-01-23 22:23:16|silascrosby|Re: VW Jetta|As Paul mentioned, Hurth seems to have a bad reputation at the moment. As Brent has said this is likely from undersizing. Like Paul I have a had a Hurth, in my case a 250, for 15 yrs, 4000 hrs with no problem. Mounted on an Isuzu C240(~50hp). Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Hello All > I have been shopping for a transmission for my diesel engine and I > found a Hurth H.B.W. 150 with a 2.00 : 1 Ratio for $1000 dollers. > This transmission was taken off a brand new engine that needed a > different angle. Would this be good or should I keep shopping around? > James. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > Make sure you set the linkage properly on your Hurth. It is > critical that > > the shift lever goes full travel or the clutch will slip a bit and > burn up. > > Many people have problems with Hurths and it most often the setting > of the > > shift lever that caused it to fail. The 250 series should be > great. Some > > engines had a 100 series when they came out which was inadequate. > I have > > the 150 series and it has been no trouble for 15 years on my Isuzu > 35. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of James Pronk > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:13 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: VW Jetta > > > > > > > > Hello All > > I just came across this HURTH MARINE TRANSMISSION Gearbox HBW 250- > 2R. > > It has a gear ratio of 1.88:1. would this be a good mate to the 1.5 > > liter VW diesel? > > Thank you and Happy New Year to you all, > > James Pronk. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19483|19483|2009-01-23 22:54:24|Tom Mann|Building with galvanized|Hello All Anyone geven any thought to building out of galvanized material ? Reason I am asking is I think I might build another one eather modified 26' or 31' and after all the fun of sandblasting I dont want to do that part again. Here in California wheel abraded pre primed is not available. Zinc rich primer is outlawed other than the spray cans. A lot of areas sandblasting has been outlawed. So need alternatives. I have worked with galvanized material for years and its not a big deal, anyway did some checking and you cant seem to get sheets wider that 4'.. Buying a 10 gage 4' x 10' hot roll cost $158 , 10 gage 4' x 10' galvanized sheet $165 . Thats about 18 cents a square foot more to eliminate the sandblasting and zinc primer. Did some figuring on the 26 4 ea 4' x 14' 4 ea 4' x 12' would be enough for the hull and transome with some left over. you would have one vertical seam near center of boat and one horizontal below water line. Sure seems to me you could save a lot of time,agrivation, and money doing it this way. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19484|19480|2009-01-23 23:00:15|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: alcool stoves|Methanol puts out fewer BTUs then Ethanol so in the way the stove is set up it may not produce enough heat to cook or boil water or requier a lot more fuel to do it. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I just bought an" origo" alcool stove and I now have to buy some alcool to use it. > in the instructions they mention to use only denatured alcool (ethanol) and not use methyl > hydrate (methanol). > Is it what most people do or does some also use methyl hydrate? > > I ask because on the methyl hydrate container they mention that it is good for non > pressurized boat stoves (the origo is non pressurized) > > > > Martin. > | 19485|19485|2009-01-24 00:39:56|eulachon@ymail.com|Woodstove for my boat: too big?|Hey y'all, I really appreciate this opportunity to ask the advice of so many mariners at once! My boat is 41ft on deck, but being a double ender, is only about 30ft long X 11ft wide in the interior, "open concept". I'm switching to wood heat, and I have found a nice deal on a real beautie wood stove (Elmira Stove Works)looks like a mini Blaze King. My only concern is that, while it's a small stove, it's still a little bigger than I was thinking for my boat. It's box is 19" deep X 14" high X 13" wide, while it's outer dimensions are 21" high X 21" deep X 17" wide. Waddya think... overkill? It a nice heavy steel lay up and dampens down really nicely. Advice appreciated! Cheers, Eulachon| 19486|19485|2009-01-24 01:02:53|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Woodstove for my boat: too big?|Dampening down wood stoves makes them burn slower as in all night but also hotter. I think it would almost heat a shop to work on the boat in. Just the thoughts of someone who built wood stover for a few years of the Carter adminastration after intrest went up to high to build houses. Jon--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "eulachon@..." wrote: > > Hey y'all, > > I really appreciate this opportunity to ask the advice of so many > mariners at once! > > My boat is 41ft on deck, but being a double ender, is only about 30ft > long X 11ft wide in the interior, "open concept". I'm switching to > wood heat, and I have found a nice deal on a real beautie wood stove > (Elmira Stove Works)looks like a mini Blaze King. > > My only concern is that, while it's a small stove, it's still a little > bigger than I was thinking for my boat. It's box is 19" deep X 14" > high X 13" wide, while it's outer dimensions are 21" high X 21" deep X > 17" wide. > > Waddya think... overkill? It a nice heavy steel lay up and dampens > down really nicely. > > Advice appreciated! > > Cheers, > Eulachon > | 19487|19485|2009-01-24 04:32:56|kingsknight4life|Re: Woodstove for my boat: too big?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > > > My boat is 41ft on deck, but being a double ender, is only about > 30ft > > long X 11ft wide > > Cheers, > > Eulachon > > > Was your boat recently on yachworld and for sale in BC? There was a green double ender that was for sale that looked like a good deal but still being in alberta we didn't bother to seriously consider it. Just curious if its the same boat, wish I could rember more details. rowland| 19488|19488|2009-01-24 10:10:08|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Lead for ballast available in Nanaimo|Hey Guys, ran into a fellow yesterday who has "a pallet of lead" that he wants to sell. Don't know what form it's in but worth a call if your looking for lead. his name is Jordan Anton 250-739-1946 Shane __________________________________________________________________ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 19489|19489|2009-01-24 11:46:09|theboilerflue|monel hull|here's an interesting boat made out of monel below the water line and steel above i don't know how they joined the two http://cgi.ebay.ca/World-Cruising-Mason-36-Sailboat-W-Monel-Steel-hull_W0QQitemZ130283234652QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSailboats?hash=item130283234652&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1308| 19490|19480|2009-01-24 13:08:56|mark hamill|Re: alcool stoves|I had a double burner Origo and used methyl hydrate I think each burner took about a quart or litre? Any reason given for not using Methyl hydrate??| 19491|19480|2009-01-24 13:11:52|mark hamill|Re: alcool stoves|http://www.scottbwilliams.com/articles/origo3000stove.html| 19492|19480|2009-01-24 13:18:58|Martin Demers|Re: alcool stoves|I just found the answer; vapors from methyl hydrate in the liquid form are toxic. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > I had a double burner Origo and used methyl hydrate I think each burner took about a quart > or litre? Any reason given for not using Methyl hydrate?? > | 19493|19472|2009-01-24 13:22:33|mark hamill|Re: Trim Tabs|Brent: I much prefer a tiller myself but on this particular boat--a wharram cat the mizzen is in the way and the throw of the tiller hard over each way is really large i. Thanks, Mark| 19494|19480|2009-01-24 13:44:43|mark hamill|Re: alcool stoves|> I just found the answer; vapors from methyl hydrate in the liquid form are toxic. Thanks---Finally an explanation for the drooling and "visions"--course I suppose drinking the stuff didn't help either.| 19495|19489|2009-01-24 16:28:15|kingsknight4life|Re: monel hull|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > here's an interesting boat made out of monel below the water line and > steel above i don't know how they joined the two > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/World-Cruising-Mason-36-Sailboat-W-Monel-Steel- hull_W0QQitemZ130283234652QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSailboats? hash=item130283234652&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39% 3A1|240%3A1308 > Hi Haidan That boat pops up on ebay 2 times a month for at least a year, each time the price is slightly lower. I don't think I've ever seen a single bid on it though? I think it was origanllly around $70k. Lots of new gear but the galey is al 240v electric?? somethng is turnng buyers awaw? Rollie| 19496|19483|2009-01-24 16:59:09|brentswain38|Re: Building with galvanized|I used hot galv for my decks , cabin, wheelhouse , cockpit and rudder.No problem.I wouldn't work with it for wages, as long term exposure to welding smoke from it is not a good idea, but for my own boat it was a one off deal. For welding it ,I used a face mask with check valves in hooked to 24 feet of plastic sump drain hose , sucking air from 21 feet away. The hose cost $7 , far less than the filtres, far safer , and it was easier to suck air thru it than thru filtres. I washed the galv with TSP , then vinegar, then water, then let it dry, before epoxy taring it. Stuck like shit to a blanket. A second boat takes a fraction the time of the first one. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Hello All > Anyone geven any thought to building out of galvanized material ? > Reason I am asking is I think I might build another one eather modified 26' > or 31' and after all the fun of sandblasting I dont want to do that part > again. Here in California wheel abraded pre primed is not available. Zinc > rich primer is outlawed other than the spray cans. A lot of areas > sandblasting has been outlawed. So need alternatives. > I have worked with galvanized material for years and its not a big deal, > anyway did some checking and you cant seem to get sheets wider that 4'.. > Buying a 10 gage 4' x 10' hot roll cost $158 , 10 gage 4' x 10' > galvanized sheet $165 . Thats about 18 cents a square foot more to eliminate > the sandblasting and zinc primer. > Did some figuring on the 26 > 4 ea 4' x 14' > 4 ea 4' x 12' > would be enough for the hull and transome with some left over. > you would have one vertical seam near center of boat and one horizontal > below water line. > Sure seems to me you could save a lot of time,agrivation, and money doing > it this way. > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19497|19485|2009-01-24 17:01:08|brentswain38|Re: Woodstove for my boat: too big?|No problem . Sounds like the perect size for your boat. To small and you keep finding wood that is an inch too long. Go for it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "eulachon@..." wrote: > > Hey y'all, > > I really appreciate this opportunity to ask the advice of so many > mariners at once! > > My boat is 41ft on deck, but being a double ender, is only about 30ft > long X 11ft wide in the interior, "open concept". I'm switching to > wood heat, and I have found a nice deal on a real beautie wood stove > (Elmira Stove Works)looks like a mini Blaze King. > > My only concern is that, while it's a small stove, it's still a little > bigger than I was thinking for my boat. It's box is 19" deep X 14" > high X 13" wide, while it's outer dimensions are 21" high X 21" deep X > 17" wide. > > Waddya think... overkill? It a nice heavy steel lay up and dampens > down really nicely. > > Advice appreciated! > > Cheers, > Eulachon > | 19498|19475|2009-01-24 17:03:30|brentswain38|Re: DIY whisker pole?|If you have that mast slider thing that Steve has ,that lets you raise the pole to get at the end, then the longer the better. If you can't get at the end underway, then it shouldn't be too long to let you reach the end. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > I have never regretted having a 16'pole for a 13' J measurement ( 23' > J ,that's a good-sized boat!), I started with 17' and cut some off. It > really stretches the jib to make use of the sail area and minimise > wear and tear in a seaway. Two inch diam sched 40 with home-brew end > fittings. I have certainly dented, kinked and rendered useless a > thin-walled but larger tube.It needs to take some good whacks. I > raise the inboard end on a track to get it inside the forestay and > staysail stay. > Steve > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "eulachon@" wrote: > > > > Hey Everyone, > > > > I'm new to this group, and I'm a big fan of both Brent's philosophy of > > empowered DIY sailing, and his excellent book, Building a Better Steel > > Boat. I'm also friend to more than one Brentboat owner. > > > > I bought a steel cutter last season, and among other upgrades, am > > fitting it out with a whisker pole. My J is 23ft, and I have a steel > > "Brentmast". > > > > If you'll be so kind as to indulge me, I have two questions: > > 1) does the pole need to be the full length of my J (for furling in > > and tacking)? > > 2)Can I fabricate a pole that would do the trick and be very sturdy? > > > > Eulachon > > > | 19499|19489|2009-01-24 17:10:06|brentswain38|Re: monel hull|Monel is like a type of bronze on the electrical scale. Good luck joining the two and avoiding serious electrolysis. Sounds like far more trouble than it is worth. I don't see the advantage, as corrosion is no problem on steel below the waterline , as long as you keep your zincs up. They once built an America's cup J boat with aluminium topsides and bronze botom. While they were launching it, Nat Herreschoff was sitting at the end of the dock with a piece of bronze and a piece of aluminium in a bucket of seawater , watching them fizzle, and chuckling to himself. The bottom corroded out completely in three years. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > here's an interesting boat made out of monel below the water line and > steel above i don't know how they joined the two > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/World-Cruising-Mason-36-Sailboat-W-Monel-Steel-hull_W0QQitemZ130283234652QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSailboats?hash=item130283234652&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1308 > | 19500|19500|2009-01-24 17:12:42|brentswain38|Alternator welder|I tried mounting the 75 watt halogen 120 volt bulb between the stinger and the ground to protect the diodes, on the alternator body. Bad idea. The vibration trashed the filament, so I now have the bulb mounted separately, where there is little vibration. Brent| 19501|19501|2009-01-24 19:26:30|Aaron|Mast and Boom|I have access to an 18' boom. Would that be to long or will I need to cut it down? Also it was removed from a 50' mast so there is a like new sail available for me. The sail is something like 6" longer in luff and 6" longer in the foot. Would it hurt to make my mast 50' since I am building it myself. Thanks Aaron| 19502|19489|2009-01-24 19:47:29|peter_d_wiley|Re: monel hull|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Monel is like a type of bronze on the electrical scale. Not bronze. Monel is an alloy of copper and nickel and is about the perfect alloy for a boat hull mechanically and in terms of corrosion resistance - leaving aside the cost of course. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Good luck > joining the two and avoiding serious electrolysis. That, I agree with. The advantage of monel is that it's essentially inert and naturally anti-fouls due to the high copper content. Welding it to steel on the waterline means you'll need a really good barrier paint job to keep the salt water off of the joint. An all monel hull would be a wonderful thing if you had money to burn. PDW| 19503|19483|2009-01-24 19:55:29|peter_d_wiley|Re: Building with galvanized|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Hello All > Anyone geven any thought to building out of galvanized material ? > Reason I am asking is I think I might build another one eather modified 26' > or 31' and after all the fun of sandblasting I dont want to do that part > again. Here in California wheel abraded pre primed is not available. Zinc > rich primer is outlawed other than the spray cans. A lot of areas > sandblasting has been outlawed. So need alternatives. > I have worked with galvanized material for years and its not a big deal, > anyway did some checking and you cant seem to get sheets wider that 4'.. > Buying a 10 gage 4' x 10' hot roll cost $158 , 10 gage 4' x 10' > galvanized sheet $165 . Thats about 18 cents a square foot more to eliminate > the sandblasting and zinc primer. > Did some figuring on the 26 > 4 ea 4' x 14' > 4 ea 4' x 12' > would be enough for the hull and transome with some left over. > you would have one vertical seam near center of boat and one horizontal > below water line. > Sure seems to me you could save a lot of time,agrivation, and money doing > it this way. > Tom Provided you do proper joint prep and use something like E4111 (6011 to you guys) rods and, as Brent says, ensure you're breathing clean air, I can't see why not. I generally grind thru the galv coating first but cellulose fluxed rods will burn through it. The clean air bit is important though. Breathing zinc fumes isn't good for your health. I can't find pre-primed plate local to me either but I have found an industrial place that'll take hot rolled, de-scale it, blast it & prime it for me. Cost is $20/square metre. I'm planning on going that way but might price hot dipped galv just to see. I don't think I can get it in 4mm but it's worth asking. PDW| 19504|19475|2009-01-24 20:12:01|Paul Ross|Re: DIY whisker pole?|Ah yes, so this would be the "cow bells" v.s. track question.... the fact is I have neither at this point, and the notion of welding a couple of sockets to the mast and callin' 'er done is very attractive, as opposed to installing a track. Would the cow-bells (please excuse what may be an offensive nickname here) mean that I could not stow the pole up against the mast vertically, or is that still an option. I've also been told that on longer downwind tacks (i.e. offshore) one likes to tune the rig out a bit, and that with fixed sockets you pretty much have to use 'er as she lies. Thoughts? Eulachon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19505|19485|2009-01-24 20:14:11|Paul Ross|Re: Woodstove for my boat: too big?|Music to my ears! Thanks Brent. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19506|19483|2009-01-24 20:39:00|Tom Mann|Re: Building with galvanized|Thanks Brent Glad to here it does work. It will be a while yet before I build but I will start looking for good deals on materials. I am figuring building the next one in the shop. migs, plasma,crane. ect. Im thinking if I pre make keels and skeg and get everything together that I should be able to get most of it together in a week, steel components that is. Tom On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 1:59 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I used hot galv for my decks , cabin, wheelhouse , cockpit and > rudder.No problem.I wouldn't work with it for wages, as long term > exposure to welding smoke from it is not a good idea, but for my own > boat it was a one off deal. For welding it ,I used a face mask with > check valves in hooked to 24 feet of plastic sump drain hose , > sucking air from 21 feet away. The hose cost $7 , far less than the > filtres, far safer , and it was easier to suck air thru it than thru > filtres. > I washed the galv with TSP , then vinegar, then water, then let it > dry, before epoxy taring it. Stuck like shit to a blanket. > A second boat takes a fraction the time of the first one. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > Hello All > > Anyone geven any thought to building out of galvanized material ? > > Reason I am asking is I think I might build another one eather > modified 26' > > or 31' and after all the fun of sandblasting I dont want to do that > part > > again. Here in California wheel abraded pre primed is not available. > Zinc > > rich primer is outlawed other than the spray cans. A lot of areas > > sandblasting has been outlawed. So need alternatives. > > I have worked with galvanized material for years and its not a big > deal, > > anyway did some checking and you cant seem to get sheets wider that 4'.. > > Buying a 10 gage 4' x 10' hot roll cost $158 , 10 gage 4' x 10' > > galvanized sheet $165 . Thats about 18 cents a square foot more to > eliminate > > the sandblasting and zinc primer. > > Did some figuring on the 26 > > 4 ea 4' x 14' > > 4 ea 4' x 12' > > would be enough for the hull and transome with some left over. > > you would have one vertical seam near center of boat and one > horizontal > > below water line. > > Sure seems to me you could save a lot of time,agrivation, and money > doing > > it this way. > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19507|19483|2009-01-24 20:46:59|Tom Mann|Re: Building with galvanized|Peter Yep I think it would be worth checking to see if its available. I didnt ask if anything was available thicker than 10 gage, Ill have to check see if 7 gage or 3/16" is available galvanized. Tom On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 4:55 PM, peter_d_wiley wrote: Provided you do proper joint prep and use something like E4111 (6011 > to you guys) rods and, as Brent says, ensure you're breathing clean > air, I can't see why not. I generally grind thru the galv coating > first but cellulose fluxed rods will burn through it. > > The clean air bit is important though. Breathing zinc fumes isn't good > for your health. > > I can't find pre-primed plate local to me either but I have found an > industrial place that'll take hot rolled, de-scale it, blast it & > prime it for me. Cost is $20/square metre. I'm planning on going that > way but might price hot dipped galv just to see. I don't think I can > get it in 4mm but it's worth asking. > > PDW > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19508|19483|2009-01-24 21:51:30|Aaron Williams|Re: Building with galvanized|Tom check with Seaport Steel in Seattle. I bought my 8' x 40' from them and they had them wheel abraded and primed.   Aaron --- On Sat, 1/24/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: From: peter_d_wiley Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building with galvanized To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 3:55 PM --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Hello All > Anyone geven any thought to building out of galvanized material ? > Reason I am asking is I think I might build another one eather modified 26' > or 31' and after all the fun of sandblasting I dont want to do that part > again. Here in California wheel abraded pre primed is not available. Zinc > rich primer is outlawed other than the spray cans. A lot of areas > sandblasting has been outlawed. So need alternatives. > I have worked with galvanized material for years and its not a big deal, > anyway did some checking and you cant seem to get sheets wider that 4'.. > Buying a 10 gage 4' x 10' hot roll cost $158 , 10 gage 4' x 10' > galvanized sheet $165 . Thats about 18 cents a square foot more to eliminate > the sandblasting and zinc primer. > Did some figuring on the 26 > 4 ea 4' x 14' > 4 ea 4' x 12' > would be enough for the hull and transome with some left over. > you would have one vertical seam near center of boat and one horizontal > below water line. > Sure seems to me you could save a lot of time,agrivation, and money doing > it this way. > Tom Provided you do proper joint prep and use something like E4111 (6011 to you guys) rods and, as Brent says, ensure you're breathing clean air, I can't see why not. I generally grind thru the galv coating first but cellulose fluxed rods will burn through it. The clean air bit is important though. Breathing zinc fumes isn't good for your health. I can't find pre-primed plate local to me either but I have found an industrial place that'll take hot rolled, de-scale it, blast it & prime it for me. Cost is $20/square metre. I'm planning on going that way but might price hot dipped galv just to see. I don't think I can get it in 4mm but it's worth asking. PDW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19509|19509|2009-01-25 06:14:18|boatwayupnorth|Swain boats in Norway|Hi all, does anybody know about any Swain boats in Norway/ Scandinavia? Walter| 19510|19427|2009-01-25 06:38:29|edward_stoneuk|Re: Getting back to Brent's wood burning stove :-)|Hi Paul, The fire bricks are to avoid cold spots in the combustion zone and hence give better combustion and less smoke and tar in the outlet. The hot water coil which will be heating cold water will tend to do the opposite so ideally use both, although stoves obviously work without either and one can put a kettle on top to heat water. I was talking to a farmer friend yesterday about his old central heating system, which is a water jacketed cylindrical fireplace large enough to put a large straw bale in. It is not lined and puts out a fair amount of smoke. He said the newer ones are lined with refractory and have several baffles with heating coils and forced air. A friend of his has one and it leaks water. Although the expansion of the pipes and stove is minimal, as combustion takes place it can cause the the pipes and welds to move and over a period of time lead to leaks. I have seen 2" Schd 40 321 stainless steel water heating coils in a landfill gas flare corrode and leak in one year of 24/7 use. This was because of sulphur in the exhaust gases condensing on the outside of the coil. I have also seen them twist out of shape in the heat when they ran dry, although this was at much higher temperatures than 1200° F. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > If you put a hot water coil in, should you still use fire bricks? Or > would it be in lieu off? > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 19511|19489|2009-01-25 07:41:16|audeojude|Re: monel hull|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > here's an interesting boat made out of monel below the water line and > steel above i don't know how they joined the two > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/World-Cruising-Mason-36-Sailboat-W-Monel-Steel-hull_W0QQitemZ130283234652QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSailboats?hash=item130283234652&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1308 > I would be wary of this boat. I have seen it come up for sale every 3 to 6 months for the last year or two. Could just be their bad luck in trying to sell it. Location isn't great for buyers in this end of the world. scott| 19512|19489|2009-01-25 08:21:39|Wally Paine|Re: monel hull|Ther was a cupro-nickle boat in Faversham creek a couple of years ago. It was designed and built by a chap who designed the mulberry harbours for the D-Day landings. Wally Paine --- On Sun, 25/1/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: From: peter_d_wiley Subject: [origamiboats] Re: monel hull To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 25 January, 2009, 12:47 AM --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Monel is like a type of bronze on the electrical scale. Not bronze. Monel is an alloy of copper and nickel and is about the perfect alloy for a boat hull mechanically and in terms of corrosion resistance - leaving aside the cost of course. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Good luck > joining the two and avoiding serious electrolysis. That, I agree with. The advantage of monel is that it's essentially inert and naturally anti-fouls due to the high copper content. Welding it to steel on the waterline means you'll need a really good barrier paint job to keep the salt water off of the joint. An all monel hull would be a wonderful thing if you had money to burn. PDW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19513|17655|2009-01-25 09:11:24|Shane Duncan|Re: aluminium pilot house|  some pics of my aluminium pilot house for a BS31 i have left around 40mm of Green on the bottom, to trim off later. Its been so nice working with aluminium after working with steel for the last 8 months. so light clean and easy to cut. But i guess there is nothing like steel when hit a reef in the night.     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/943837413/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/428092647/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19514|19489|2009-01-25 09:24:56|mauro gonzaga|Re: monel hull|I don't believe monel is antifouling. It has approx 30 pc copper and 70 pc nickel. Cost is terribly high. Better is to use Cu-Ni with 90 pc copper and 10 pc nickel. Cost is more reasonable and it is antifouling. Welding is made with Cu/Ni 70/30 rods (GTAW process) or wire (GMAW process) Fishing boats in Cu/Ni 90/10 were built in caribbian area with saving in drydocking time and expenses Mauro --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Wally Paine wrote: From: Wally Paine Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: monel hull To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 2:21 PM Ther was a cupro-nickle boat in Faversham creek a couple of years ago. It was designed and built by a chap who designed the mulberry harbours for the D-Day landings. Wally Paine --- On Sun, 25/1/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: From: peter_d_wiley Subject: [origamiboats] Re: monel hull To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Sunday, 25 January, 2009, 12:47 AM --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Monel is like a type of bronze on the electrical scale. Not bronze. Monel is an alloy of copper and nickel and is about the perfect alloy for a boat hull mechanically and in terms of corrosion resistance - leaving aside the cost of course. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Good luck > joining the two and avoiding serious electrolysis. That, I agree with. The advantage of monel is that it's essentially inert and naturally anti-fouls due to the high copper content. Welding it to steel on the waterline means you'll need a really good barrier paint job to keep the salt water off of the joint. An all monel hull would be a wonderful thing if you had money to burn. PDW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19515|19489|2009-01-25 09:27:22|mauro gonzaga|Re: monel hull|It can be welded using just Monel stick electrodes. It may be used also to weld Cu/Ni 90/10 to steel Mauro --- On Sun, 1/25/09, audeojude wrote: From: audeojude Subject: [origamiboats] Re: monel hull To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 1:41 PM --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > here's an interesting boat made out of monel below the water line and > steel above i don't know how they joined the two > > http://cgi.ebay ca/World- Cruising- Mason-36- Sailboat- W-Monel-Steel- hull_W0QQitemZ13 0283234652QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZSai lboats?hash= item130283234652 &_trksid= p3286.c0. m14&_trkparms= 66%3A2|65%3A10|39% 3A1|240%3A1308 > I would be wary of this boat. I have seen it come up for sale every 3 to 6 months for the last year or two. Could just be their bad luck in trying to sell it. Location isn't great for buyers in this end of the world. scott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19516|17655|2009-01-25 10:20:57|Tom Mann|Re: aluminium pilot house|Thanks Shane Lookin good Tom On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 6:11 AM, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > some pics of my aluminium pilot house for a BS31 > i have left around 40mm of Green on the bottom, to trim off later. > Its been so nice working with aluminium after working with steel for the > last 8 months. so light clean and easy to cut. > But i guess there is nothing like steel when hit a reef in the night. > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/943837413/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/428092647/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc > > > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. > Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19517|19517|2009-01-25 11:01:52|thesnotrocket|New '46 Aluminum Origami from Patrick Bray|Hi all, I was just looking at the Bray website and there is a new design that I assume is origami from the description. "The hull form has a short chine amidship above the waterline with rounded sections both fore and aft and a truncated, rounded underwater section. Not only is this form very fast through the water but it is fast and simple to build, reducing building costs." Nice looking boat and only 20k lbs displacement for 46' :O http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/ssilverseas.html -Dave| 19518|17655|2009-01-25 11:46:14|Martin Demers|Re: aluminium pilot house|By looking at your pilothouse pictures I see that you did all the cabin top in aluminium, not just the rear section, I always wanted to know if all could be made of aluminium including the side decks. Martin. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > >   > some pics of my aluminium pilot house for a BS31 > i have left around 40mm of Green on the bottom, to trim off later. > Its been so nice working with aluminium after working with steel for the last 8 months. so light clean and easy to cut. > But i guess there is nothing like steel when hit a reef in the night. >   >   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/ 943837413/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc >   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/ 428092647/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc > > > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19519|19483|2009-01-25 18:24:10|Tom Mann|Re: Building with galvanized|Thanks Aaron That would be an option but an expencive one, its over 1000 miles from here. At the prices I am looking at I can build the Hull,decks,cockpit,keels and skeg for under 3K if I do a 26'. Getting the 10 gage and 12 gage in galvanized is no problem same with angles and flats but the 3/16" plate for keels and skeg dont seem to be an option, probobly could send the plate to the galvanizer but not sure how that light of plate would take to being hot dipped. Dragging the keels and skeg out in the field and sandblasting would not be to bad, it would be a walk in the park compared to the whole boat On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > Tom check with Seaport Steel in Seattle. I bought my 8' x 40' from them and > they had them wheel abraded and primed. > > Aaron > > --- On Sat, 1/24/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > From: peter_d_wiley > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building with galvanized > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 3:55 PM > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > Hello All > > Anyone geven any thought to building out of galvanized material ? > > Reason I am asking is I think I might build another one eather > modified 26' > > or 31' and after all the fun of sandblasting I dont want to do that > part > > again. Here in California wheel abraded pre primed is not available. > Zinc > > rich primer is outlawed other than the spray cans. A lot of areas > > sandblasting has been outlawed. So need alternatives. > > I have worked with galvanized material for years and its not a big > deal, > > anyway did some checking and you cant seem to get sheets wider that 4'.. > > Buying a 10 gage 4' x 10' hot roll cost $158 , 10 gage 4' x 10' > > galvanized sheet $165 . Thats about 18 cents a square foot more to > eliminate > > the sandblasting and zinc primer. > > Did some figuring on the 26 > > 4 ea 4' x 14' > > 4 ea 4' x 12' > > would be enough for the hull and transome with some left over. > > you would have one vertical seam near center of boat and one > horizontal > > below water line. > > Sure seems to me you could save a lot of time,agrivation, and money > doing > > it this way. > > Tom > > Provided you do proper joint prep and use something like E4111 (6011 > to you guys) rods and, as Brent says, ensure you're breathing clean > air, I can't see why not. I generally grind thru the galv coating > first but cellulose fluxed rods will burn through it. > > The clean air bit is important though. Breathing zinc fumes isn't good > for your health. > > I can't find pre-primed plate local to me either but I have found an > industrial place that'll take hot rolled, de-scale it, blast it & > prime it for me. Cost is $20/square metre. I'm planning on going that > way but might price hot dipped galv just to see. I don't think I can > get it in 4mm but it's worth asking. > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19520|19483|2009-01-25 19:05:09|Aaron Williams|Re: Building with galvanized|I thought you were in Northern Cal --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Tom Mann wrote: From: Tom Mann Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building with galvanized To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 2:24 PM Thanks Aaron That would be an option but an expencive one, its over 1000 miles from here. At the prices I am looking at I can build the Hull,decks,cockpit, keels and skeg for under 3K if I do a 26'. Getting the 10 gage and 12 gage in galvanized is no problem same with angles and flats but the 3/16" plate for keels and skeg dont seem to be an option, probobly could send the plate to the galvanizer but not sure how that light of plate would take to being hot dipped. Dragging the keels and skeg out in the field and sandblasting would not be to bad, it would be a walk in the park compared to the whole boat On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > Tom check with Seaport Steel in Seattle. I bought my 8' x 40' from them and > they had them wheel abraded and primed. > > Aaron > > --- On Sat, 1/24/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > From: peter_d_wiley > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building with galvanized > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 3:55 PM > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > Hello All > > Anyone geven any thought to building out of galvanized material ? > > Reason I am asking is I think I might build another one eather > modified 26' > > or 31' and after all the fun of sandblasting I dont want to do that > part > > again. Here in California wheel abraded pre primed is not available. > Zinc > > rich primer is outlawed other than the spray cans. A lot of areas > > sandblasting has been outlawed. So need alternatives. > > I have worked with galvanized material for years and its not a big > deal, > > anyway did some checking and you cant seem to get sheets wider that 4'.. > > Buying a 10 gage 4' x 10' hot roll cost $158 , 10 gage 4' x 10' > > galvanized sheet $165 . Thats about 18 cents a square foot more to > eliminate > > the sandblasting and zinc primer. > > Did some figuring on the 26 > > 4 ea 4' x 14' > > 4 ea 4' x 12' > > would be enough for the hull and transome with some left over. > > you would have one vertical seam near center of boat and one > horizontal > > below water line. > > Sure seems to me you could save a lot of time,agrivation, and money > doing > > it this way. > > Tom > > Provided you do proper joint prep and use something like E4111 (6011 > to you guys) rods and, as Brent says, ensure you're breathing clean > air, I can't see why not. I generally grind thru the galv coating > first but cellulose fluxed rods will burn through it. > > The clean air bit is important though. Breathing zinc fumes isn't good > for your health. > > I can't find pre-primed plate local to me either but I have found an > industrial place that'll take hot rolled, de-scale it, blast it & > prime it for me. Cost is $20/square metre. I'm planning on going that > way but might price hot dipped galv just to see. I don't think I can > get it in 4mm but it's worth asking. > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19521|19521|2009-01-25 19:28:45|dare2build|A question in regard to building with galvanize|If the entire hull and deck was build out of galvanized steel, would their be any problems in welding 316 ss to it? Thank you kindly for your answers. Fred| 19522|19483|2009-01-25 20:46:22|Tom Mann|Re: Building with galvanized|Central California between Fresno and Bakersfield On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > I thought you were in Northern Cal > > --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Tom Mann wrote: > > > From: Tom Mann > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building with galvanized > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 2:24 PM > > > > > > > Thanks Aaron > That would be an option but an expencive one, its over 1000 miles from > here. > At the prices I am looking at I can build the Hull,decks,cockpit, keels and > skeg for under 3K if I do a 26'. > Getting the 10 gage and 12 gage in galvanized is no problem same with > angles and flats but the 3/16" plate for keels and skeg dont seem to be an > option, probobly could send the plate to the galvanizer but not sure how > that light of plate would take to being hot dipped. Dragging the keels and > skeg out in the field and sandblasting would not be to bad, it would be a > walk in the park compared to the whole boat > > On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Tom check with Seaport Steel in Seattle. I bought my 8' x 40' from them > and > > they had them wheel abraded and primed. > > > > Aaron > > > > --- On Sat, 1/24/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > From: peter_d_wiley > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building with galvanized > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 3:55 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > Hello All > > > Anyone geven any thought to building out of galvanized material ? > > > Reason I am asking is I think I might build another one eather > > modified 26' > > > or 31' and after all the fun of sandblasting I dont want to do that > > part > > > again. Here in California wheel abraded pre primed is not available. > > Zinc > > > rich primer is outlawed other than the spray cans. A lot of areas > > > sandblasting has been outlawed. So need alternatives. > > > I have worked with galvanized material for years and its not a big > > deal, > > > anyway did some checking and you cant seem to get sheets wider that > 4'.. > > > Buying a 10 gage 4' x 10' hot roll cost $158 , 10 gage 4' x 10' > > > galvanized sheet $165 . Thats about 18 cents a square foot more to > > eliminate > > > the sandblasting and zinc primer. > > > Did some figuring on the 26 > > > 4 ea 4' x 14' > > > 4 ea 4' x 12' > > > would be enough for the hull and transome with some left over. > > > you would have one vertical seam near center of boat and one > > horizontal > > > below water line. > > > Sure seems to me you could save a lot of time,agrivation, and money > > doing > > > it this way. > > > Tom > > > > Provided you do proper joint prep and use something like E4111 (6011 > > to you guys) rods and, as Brent says, ensure you're breathing clean > > air, I can't see why not. I generally grind thru the galv coating > > first but cellulose fluxed rods will burn through it. > > > > The clean air bit is important though. Breathing zinc fumes isn't good > > for your health. > > > > I can't find pre-primed plate local to me either but I have found an > > industrial place that'll take hot rolled, de-scale it, blast it & > > prime it for me. Cost is $20/square metre. I'm planning on going that > > way but might price hot dipped galv just to see. I don't think I can > > get it in 4mm but it's worth asking. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19523|19521|2009-01-25 20:55:02|Tom Mann|Re: A question in regard to building with galvanize|Fred No problem Just grind off galvanized coating where its going to be welded and use 309L rods or wire. I have welded 304 grade directly to galvanized with 6011 in milk barns and it held but would not recomend doing it on anything strucual like your boat. Tom On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 4:28 PM, dare2build wrote: > If the entire hull and deck was build out of galvanized steel, would their > be any problems in > welding 316 ss to it? > Thank you kindly for your answers. Fred > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19524|19489|2009-01-25 21:38:58|peter_d_wiley|Re: monel hull|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > I don't believe monel is antifouling. It has approx 30 pc copper and 70 pc nickel. Cost is terribly high. > Better is to use Cu-Ni with 90 pc copper and 10 pc nickel. Cost is more reasonable and it is antifouling. Welding is made with Cu/Ni 70/30 rods (GTAW process) or wire (GMAW process) > Fishing boats in Cu/Ni 90/10 were built in caribbian area with saving in drydocking time and expenses You are correct, I was thinking of cupro-nickel when I wrote that. Late night, beer.... PDW| 19525|19483|2009-01-25 21:51:57|peter_d_wiley|Re: Building with galvanized|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Thanks Aaron > That would be an option but an expencive one, its over 1000 miles from > here. > At the prices I am looking at I can build the Hull,decks,cockpit,keels and > skeg for under 3K if I do a 26'. > Getting the 10 gage and 12 gage in galvanized is no problem same with > angles and flats but the 3/16" plate for keels and skeg dont seem to be an > option, probobly could send the plate to the galvanizer but not sure how > that light of plate would take to being hot dipped. Shouldn't be a problem. I've had assemblies bigger than the entire bilge keels hot dipped in my old job, BTW. If you're going to do this I'd suggest asking the galvaniser what's the biggest piece they can handle. If they can do the entire keel and you can haul it to them, weld them up and haul them down. You might need to leave a couple holes for drainage and plug them later but still a good way to go. Ditto for the skeg if you could fab it all in advance. I'll be back home in a week and after some tidying up around the place I think I'll finally have the time to build my boat. I'm going to look into getting galvanised plate, see if it's possible and how much if it is. Incidentally I picked up a Metco metal spray gun off of Ebay for $20. Haven't used it yet, not sure I ever will, but I couldn't resist it for the price. PDW| 19526|19521|2009-01-26 15:21:09|brentswain38|Re: A question in regard to building with galvanize|Weld galv to galv, then whach it with a hammer to see how strong it is. Then think of the many boats built of red cedar , held together with a copper fastening every six inches. No problem. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Fred > No problem Just grind off galvanized coating where its going to be welded > and use 309L rods or wire. > I have welded 304 grade directly to galvanized with 6011 in milk barns and > it held but would not recomend doing it on anything strucual like your boat. > Tom > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 4:28 PM, dare2build wrote: > > > If the entire hull and deck was build out of galvanized steel, would their > > be any problems in > > welding 316 ss to it? > > Thank you kindly for your answers. Fred > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19527|1284|2009-01-26 15:24:03|brianchabassol|Rudder|Hi Brent Hows the weather in Comox? - 20 here. I have a question about the rudder for my 31 footer. The plans show the rudder detail but not the whole assembly, the book shows the whole assembly but does not really give the angle for the botton where it lines up with the skeg. Since im building the "small" parts first I dont have the hull to take the angle from, I was wondering if you have any tricks to ensure that the bottom of the rudder lines up with the skeg bottom, or should I just leave some extra to trim off the rudder bottom when its hung. Thanks Brian "Skookumchuck"| 19528|19475|2009-01-26 15:24:24|brentswain38|Re: DIY whisker pole?|I have cow bells with pole stowed up along my mast. No problem . My book shows you how. Tracks here have huge loads on them and are very prone to being ripped off, unless you have it wide and extruded into the mast , like Steves. Then it is a better option. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Ross wrote: > > Ah yes, so this would be the "cow bells" v.s. track question.... the fact is I have neither at this point, and the notion of welding a couple of sockets to the mast and callin' 'er done is very attractive, as opposed to installing a track. > > Would the cow-bells (please excuse what may be an offensive nickname here) mean that I could not stow the pole up against the mast vertically, or is that still an option. > > I've also been told that on longer downwind tacks (i.e. offshore) one likes to tune the rig out a bit, and that with fixed sockets you pretty much have to use 'er as she lies. > > Thoughts? > > Eulachon > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19529|19483|2009-01-26 15:27:44|brentswain38|Re: Building with galvanized|Very tricky getting th joints fair, especially with ten guage . Check my earlier post on this issue.. With a crane, if there is any problem, you have the option of grinding the weld flush, then flipping the plate over , putting the weld on a piece of heavy plate and hammering it fair , before flipping it back and pulling the hull together. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Thanks Brent > Glad to here it does work. It will be a while yet before I build but I will > start looking for good deals on materials. I am figuring building the next > one in the shop. migs, plasma,crane. ect. Im thinking if I pre make keels > and skeg and get everything together that I should be able to get most of it > together in a week, steel components that is. > Tom > > On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 1:59 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > I used hot galv for my decks , cabin, wheelhouse , cockpit and > > rudder.No problem.I wouldn't work with it for wages, as long term > > exposure to welding smoke from it is not a good idea, but for my own > > boat it was a one off deal. For welding it ,I used a face mask with > > check valves in hooked to 24 feet of plastic sump drain hose , > > sucking air from 21 feet away. The hose cost $7 , far less than the > > filtres, far safer , and it was easier to suck air thru it than thru > > filtres. > > I washed the galv with TSP , then vinegar, then water, then let it > > dry, before epoxy taring it. Stuck like shit to a blanket. > > A second boat takes a fraction the time of the first one. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > Hello All > > > Anyone geven any thought to building out of galvanized material ? > > > Reason I am asking is I think I might build another one eather > > modified 26' > > > or 31' and after all the fun of sandblasting I dont want to do that > > part > > > again. Here in California wheel abraded pre primed is not available. > > Zinc > > > rich primer is outlawed other than the spray cans. A lot of areas > > > sandblasting has been outlawed. So need alternatives. > > > I have worked with galvanized material for years and its not a big > > deal, > > > anyway did some checking and you cant seem to get sheets wider that 4'.. > > > Buying a 10 gage 4' x 10' hot roll cost $158 , 10 gage 4' x 10' > > > galvanized sheet $165 . Thats about 18 cents a square foot more to > > eliminate > > > the sandblasting and zinc primer. > > > Did some figuring on the 26 > > > 4 ea 4' x 14' > > > 4 ea 4' x 12' > > > would be enough for the hull and transome with some left over. > > > you would have one vertical seam near center of boat and one > > horizontal > > > below water line. > > > Sure seems to me you could save a lot of time,agrivation, and money > > doing > > > it this way. > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19530|1284|2009-01-26 15:36:13|brentswain38|Re: Rudder|You could get the angle off the drawing and give it a little extra kick up, but I prefer to wait , and take the angle off the boat when its leveled. It was minus 6 last night, snow forecast for this afternoon, then warming up, and raining , then clearing. Shoulda gone to Mexico. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" wrote: > > Hi Brent > Hows the weather in Comox? - 20 here. > I have a question about the rudder for my 31 footer. The plans show the > rudder detail but not the whole assembly, the book shows the whole > assembly but does not really give the angle for the botton where it > lines up with the skeg. Since im building the "small" parts first I > dont have the hull to take the angle from, I was wondering if you have > any tricks to ensure that the bottom of the rudder lines up with the > skeg bottom, or should I just leave some extra to trim off the rudder > bottom when its hung. > Thanks > Brian > "Skookumchuck" > | 19531|19489|2009-01-26 15:42:22|Paul Wilson|Re: monel hull|Having a boat for sale for one or two years is not that unusual. The internet has many boats on it that have been for sale for one or two years. Maybe they were over-priced to begin with, but I have seen some asking prices drop by 30 or 40 percent. With the current economy, I think prices will come down some more as people get more desperate to sell. Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of audeojude Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 1:41 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: monel hull --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > here's an interesting boat made out of monel below the water line and > steel above i don't know how they joined the two > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/World-Cruising-Mason-36-Sailboat-W-Monel-Steel-hull_W0QQi temZ130283234652QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSailboats?hash=item130283234652 &_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1308 > I would be wary of this boat. I have seen it come up for sale every 3 to 6 months for the last year or two. Could just be their bad luck in trying to sell it. Location isn't great for buyers in this end of the world. scott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19532|1284|2009-01-26 15:49:51|brianchabassol|Re: Rudder|That was fast, I was thinking the same thing, about taking the angle off the plans, but figured there would be to much margin for error. Im going to build it to the full 8 foot 9 then trim the angle later. While Im at it I was also wondering about the angle for the Transom and skeg do you do the skeg first then adjust the transom to match the angle ? Mexico sounds like a good idea,I was over to Mahone bay yesterday and its frozen solid right out to the mouth. Brian --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > You could get the angle off the drawing and give it a little extra > kick up, but I prefer to wait , and take the angle off the boat when > its leveled. > It was minus 6 last night, snow forecast for this afternoon, then > warming up, and raining , then clearing. Shoulda gone to Mexico. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" > wrote: > > > > Hi Brent > > Hows the weather in Comox? - 20 here. > > I have a question about the rudder for my 31 footer. The plans show the > > rudder detail but not the whole assembly, the book shows the whole > > assembly but does not really give the angle for the botton where it > > lines up with the skeg. Since im building the "small" parts first I > > dont have the hull to take the angle from, I was wondering if you have > > any tricks to ensure that the bottom of the rudder lines up with the > > skeg bottom, or should I just leave some extra to trim off the rudder > > bottom when its hung. > > Thanks > > Brian > > "Skookumchuck" > > > | 19533|19533|2009-01-26 16:57:26|lachica31|Can I continue to use existing manifold?|Guys, I have converted La Chica to a keel cooling tank and a dry exhaust. I am wondering if there is any reason why I should not continue to use me existing manifold. It is aluminium with an integral coolant header tank and heat exchanger. I am thinking of removing the heat exchanger core and welding the ends shut. That will create a manifold surrounded by the tank. I will then just pump the coolant through the tank on the way back to the keel tank from the engine. Is there any reason why I should not do this? Regards, Paul Thompson| 19534|19533|2009-01-26 19:26:47|Paul Wilson|Re: Can I continue to use existing manifold?|Hi Paul, I am not sure I follow you on what you want to do but I will give it a shot.. You should have a thermostat controlling the amount of flow, otherwise your engine will not run hot enough. I don't have a heat exchanger with my skeg cooler but have a water cooled exhaust manifold. The cooling circulates in the engine and when it gets hot enough for the thermostat to open, the hot coolant goes into the keel cooler then out again through the exhaust manifold and then into the engine. Having it this way preheats the cold water via the exhaust manifold before it hits the engine. Dumb question, but is the manifold/exchanger you mention part of the exhaust or separate? The exhaust manifold will get very hot without some kind of cooling. Are you sure it's aluminium and not some other alloy? I think some manifolds are magnesium, so welding it could be a problem. I would rather have something other than aluminium but with anti- freeze it probably would be OK. Any high point in coolant lines needs a place for air to escape or you could end up with air locks. If your header/ expansion tank is at a high spot it will let the air out and allow for expansion in the coolant if it is large enough. It might be worth keeping your manifold/tank for these reasons. If it doesn't do any of this (cooling exhaust, expansion, air bleeding), it is just something else to go wrong and serves no purpose. I hope my jumbled thoughts help... Cheers, Paul #2 From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lachica31 Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:57 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Can I continue to use existing manifold? Guys, I have converted La Chica to a keel cooling tank and a dry exhaust. I am wondering if there is any reason why I should not continue to use me existing manifold. It is aluminium with an integral coolant header tank and heat exchanger. I am thinking of removing the heat exchanger core and welding the ends shut. That will create a manifold surrounded by the tank. I will then just pump the coolant through the tank on the way back to the keel tank from the engine. Is there any reason why I should not do this? Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19535|19535|2009-01-26 19:43:52|Gary Prebble|Offshore Insurance|My Swain 36 is in Nanaimo. I am considering offshore to Mexico, Central America/Panama to Caribbean and back or south seas. 1) Can a single hander find insurance for 2 years? (My boat is just 3 yrs new...so must have insurance) 2) Better off to join Blue Water Cruisers Assoc (or other similar) and then apply for insurance (due to group rate)? 3) It has also been mentioned on this site about buying a good deal 2nd boat down south and just keeping it in said warmer clime...and watch for cheap discount air fare offering. (Has anyone done this?...perhaps coupla guys going in on it?) This would of course rule out the long distance cruising but I am more interested in just hanging out winter months in a warmer climate. Thanks.. Gary| 19536|1284|2009-01-27 05:26:39|brianchabassol|Rudder|I should have asked this in my earlier post but I cant seem to find in the book or the plans the thickness of the rudder plates. Is it 1/8 or 3/16 ? I would assume 3/16 but want to make sure. Thanks Brian| 19537|19483|2009-01-27 09:40:14|Tom Mann|Re: Building with galvanized|I defenantly here ya on that one brent, 10 gage is tricky. I am going to try it defferent than I have in the past. Peen the edges and gap the joint with small bolts the diameter of the gap I want. I orderd a roll of ER70S-2 mig wire, supposed to be a little better on the galvanized. .030" so I can keep the weld and heat input to a minumum. We shall see, I going to play with it a bit on scrap. Plannin on flipping plates and completing the welds and grinding the outside weld flush before I mark and cut the pattern out. Tom On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 12:27 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Very tricky getting th joints fair, especially with ten guage . Check > my earlier post on this issue.. With a crane, if there is any problem, > you have the option of grinding the weld flush, then flipping the > plate over , putting the weld on a piece of heavy plate and hammering > it fair , before flipping it back and pulling the hull together. > Brent > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19538|19483|2009-01-27 09:54:00|Tom Mann|Re: Building with galvanized|> > Peter > Did some checking and the galvanizer is about 150 miles from here. As small as the keels and skeg are on the 26 I think I can blast and prime a lot quicker than driving them to the galvanizer. Sounds like you got a heck of a deal on that gun, If I could find one that cheap I would buy it just to play with it . Tom > > > > Shouldn't be a problem. I've had assemblies bigger than the entire > bilge keels hot dipped in my old job, BTW. If you're going to do this > I'd suggest asking the galvaniser what's the biggest piece they can > handle. If they can do the entire keel and you can haul it to them, > weld them up and haul them down. You might need to leave a couple > holes for drainage and plug them later but still a good way to go. > Ditto for the skeg if you could fab it all in advance. > > I'll be back home in a week and after some tidying up around the place > I think I'll finally have the time to build my boat. I'm going to look > into getting galvanised plate, see if it's possible and how much if it is. > > Incidentally I picked up a Metco metal spray gun off of Ebay for $20. > Haven't used it yet, not sure I ever will, but I couldn't resist it > for the price. > > PDW > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19539|19533|2009-01-27 12:03:49|edward_stoneuk|Re: Can I continue to use existing manifold?|Hi Paul, That's what I did on my engine, took the heater exchanger element out and welded it shut. Regards, Ted| 19540|1489|2009-01-27 13:22:37|boatwayupnorth|Re: New 40 footer album|Hi Alex, I spent the last couple of days browsing through the archives - one of the few bright sides of having a lumbago ... Your message below is somewhat dated, but I wasn't able to find the album you obviously have created in the photo-section: "40 Footer -- With Amazing Grace". Also, I found several times that somebody mentioned pictures posted on a forum called "Origami2". Could anybody post a link to this if it still exists? And here some questions to Brent (or anybody else who has been raised with these bloody illogical imperial measurements ...): I finally found out how to convert gauges for sheet metal to millimeters, but what on earth is a "1/2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe" mentioned as part of the trimtab steering? What does "sch 40" stand for? And my last questions are regarding the preparations for and final painting of the hull. E.g. on Sat, Jan 24, 2009 Brent wrote: "I washed the galv with TSP , then vinegar, then water, then let it dry, before epoxy taring it" What is "TSP" and "epoxy tar"? Could somebody give me a specific brand for "epoxy tar", then I might be able to check what's in it and to find an equivalent for it here in Europe. Any help appreciated! Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Christie" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > I've finally made my pilgrimage to see Gord's 40 footer being built > in Vancouver, and have processed the photos and posted in an album > entitled "40 Footer -- With Amazing Grace". > > The visit was very informative, and there's absolutely nothing like > seeing the real thing to really get your head straight as to what you > are getting into with a project like this! There are so many details > that must be thought out on a boat that go beyond the basic notion of > the hull and deck, and certainly challenges at every turn that demand > creativity and patience to solve, as there is for many a custom > boatbuilding project. > > The initial impression of the 40 footer bare hull is that it is > a "ship" compared to the 36. However, after walking on the decks and > down below, I quickly became accustomed to its size, and the more > time I spent on it, the more I felt that it would be a the right size > for long term living aboard for my family. It is large enough to > accommodate food stores, water, spare equipment and fuel (the fin > keel version that Gord is building has very ample tankage) for > extensive journeys offshore, yet small enough to handle for two if > set up properly. Gord has all lines running aft to the cockpit for > this reason, and this should enhance single-handing capability. Even > a boat run by two people is really a single-hander, since each person > usually takes a watch on their own. > > Down below, I was pleased to see that the insides were not as > cavernous as I had been expecting, but it was still very roomy. The > space in the bow is big enough to really be creative and go beyond > the usual v-berth and create a true useable cabin. I think this is > because moving the aft bulkhead of the bow stateroom back will not > steal too much space from the main salon. Alternately, one could > still build a regular v-berth, but have an extra 4 feet to play with > for other uses. > > Back aft, below the cockpit, Gord is putting a large private berth > which allows one to have an aft cabin and still maintain the aft > cockpit outside. This can be done on the 36 footer, but the bed is > smaller, the engine has to move forward into the main cabin, and the > cockpit footwell has to be sacrificed in order to gain room below. > Ventilation for the aft cabin is provided via opening ports in the > footwell of the cockpit. > > This is a clear example of how a slight step up in size of hull > allows for greater flexibility in customizing to your needs. That > said, I do maintain that the 36 footer, as built to the plans, > represents the ideal simple cruising vessel for two, and would > counsel anyone trying to choose between a 36 and a 40 to seriously > look at how much space they really need. The 36 footer represents > more closely Brent's philosophy of "go simply, go NOW" approach, > whereas the 40, being a much bigger boat is going to require many > more hours to finish (Gord has spent about as much time detailing > with stainless as he has building the hull), and more hours to > maintain. However, if you need the space due to crew size, then the > choice is easier to make. I think any hull larger than this would > leave the philosphy of simplicity behind in its wake and enter the > realm of luxury yachts that "take" more than they "give". When you > walk the docks, you can tell that it is the smaller boats that get > used, while the "ships" tend to be stationary. > > The owner has made the sidedecks a few inches wider than called for > on the plans, and this has yielded a very easy passage forward for > the crew. A possible side-benefit to this decision is that weight of > the cabinsides has been nudged that much closer to the centreline of > the hull. Moving several hundred pounds of steel over like that has > to be good for overall stability, I imagine. Again, this is > something that can be done more easily on the 40 footer because there > is that much more room down below. The interior space does not > appear to be impacted at all by the slightly narrowed cabin. > > The stainless detailing on this hull is quite exceptional; Gord has > been able to really polish up the welds where the horizontal railings > meet the vertical stanchions with the help of a remarkable new type > of polishing wheel that fits on his grinder. It looks and feels just > like a regular grinding wheel, but it does not "eat" at the steel the > way a grinding or cutting wheel would (which would leave big > gouges). Instead, it allows you to feather the weld into the > surrounding metal such that you cannot tell where the metal is joined > to another piece. Definitely a must-have accessory for detailing > work. Did I remember the name of this remarkable wheel? Of course > not! > > For all the portlights, Gord has followed the Swain way of not having > any small opening ports on the outside of the hull except for the > forward hatch, the forward port in the centre of the pilot house, and > two see-through hatches on the top of the pilot house. He has made > the fixed ports even stronger by recessing them into the hull, such > that no object can scrape at their edges. > > I'll conclude with the pilot house in this posting: While many > choose to put forward-leaning windows on Brent boats, Gord has chosen > the more typical aft-leaning windows. However, he has regained the > rain and sun shading benefits usually reserved for Brent-style > windows by putting a visor over the windows. > > That's about all for my report today. I hope to get over and see the > 40 footer Mishar some time, as it is afloat and complete. It will be > interesting to compare a finished boat to one in build. > > Alex > | 19541|19483|2009-01-27 13:40:03|Denis Buggy|Re: Building with galvanized|dear Tom some years ago I made some large sliding doors for a industrial building and I had to finish the welding on a ladder where the fumes of the welding came from below me as I could only weld from above in the circumstances . I nearly died I got GALVO which is inhaling ammonia and other perfumes from the process , your throat narrows to the with of a pencil and you get bleeding lesions on the air passageway of your throat . you must try and sleep sitting up for a period of 3 weeks and the belief that your throat is about to close altogether and smother you if you sleep is ever present , I was fit and young and I made it . take care welding galvanize is not even close to mild steel in health issues . regards Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building with galvanized I defenantly here ya on that one brent, 10 gage is tricky. I am going to try it defferent than I have in the past. Peen the edges and gap the joint with small bolts the diameter of the gap I want. I orderd a roll of ER70S-2 mig wire, supposed to be a little better on the galvanized. .030" so I can keep the weld and heat input to a minumum. We shall see, I going to play with it a bit on scrap. Plannin on flipping plates and completing the welds and grinding the outside weld flush before I mark and cut the pattern out. Tom On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 12:27 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Very tricky getting th joints fair, especially with ten guage . Check > my earlier post on this issue.. With a crane, if there is any problem, > you have the option of grinding the weld flush, then flipping the > plate over , putting the weld on a piece of heavy plate and hammering > it fair , before flipping it back and pulling the hull together. > Brent > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19542|1489|2009-01-27 14:10:17|Jim Ragsdale|Re: New 40 footer album|schedule 40 pipe http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ansi-steel-pipes-d_305.html TSP http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/inftsp.html epoxy tar = coal tar epoxy paint ________________________________ From: boatwayupnorth To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:22:35 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New 40 footer album Hi Alex, I spent the last couple of days browsing through the archives - one of the few bright sides of having a lumbago ... Your message below is somewhat dated, but I wasn't able to find the album you obviously have created in the photo-section: "40 Footer -- With Amazing Grace". Also, I found several times that somebody mentioned pictures posted on a forum called "Origami2". Could anybody post a link to this if it still exists? And here some questions to Brent (or anybody else who has been raised with these bloody illogical imperial measurements ...): I finally found out how to convert gauges for sheet metal to millimeters, but what on earth is a "1/2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe" mentioned as part of the trimtab steering? What does "sch 40" stand for? And my last questions are regarding the preparations for and final painting of the hull. E.g. on Sat, Jan 24, 2009 Brent wrote: "I washed the galv with TSP , then vinegar, then water, then let it dry, before epoxy taring it" What is "TSP" and "epoxy tar"? Could somebody give me a specific brand for "epoxy tar", then I might be able to check what's in it and to find an equivalent for it here in Europe. Any help appreciated! Walter --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Alex Christie" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > I've finally made my pilgrimage to see Gord's 40 footer being built > in Vancouver, and have processed the photos and posted in an album > entitled "40 Footer -- With Amazing Grace". > > The visit was very informative, and there's absolutely nothing like > seeing the real thing to really get your head straight as to what you > are getting into with a project like this! There are so many details > that must be thought out on a boat that go beyond the basic notion of > the hull and deck, and certainly challenges at every turn that demand > creativity and patience to solve, as there is for many a custom > boatbuilding project. > > The initial impression of the 40 footer bare hull is that it is > a "ship" compared to the 36. However, after walking on the decks and > down below, I quickly became accustomed to its size, and the more > time I spent on it, the more I felt that it would be a the right size > for long term living aboard for my family. It is large enough to > accommodate food stores, water, spare equipment and fuel (the fin > keel version that Gord is building has very ample tankage) for > extensive journeys offshore, yet small enough to handle for two if > set up properly. Gord has all lines running aft to the cockpit for > this reason, and this should enhance single-handing capability. Even > a boat run by two people is really a single-hander, since each person > usually takes a watch on their own. > > Down below, I was pleased to see that the insides were not as > cavernous as I had been expecting, but it was still very roomy. The > space in the bow is big enough to really be creative and go beyond > the usual v-berth and create a true useable cabin. I think this is > because moving the aft bulkhead of the bow stateroom back will not > steal too much space from the main salon. Alternately, one could > still build a regular v-berth, but have an extra 4 feet to play with > for other uses. > > Back aft, below the cockpit, Gord is putting a large private berth > which allows one to have an aft cabin and still maintain the aft > cockpit outside. This can be done on the 36 footer, but the bed is > smaller, the engine has to move forward into the main cabin, and the > cockpit footwell has to be sacrificed in order to gain room below. > Ventilation for the aft cabin is provided via opening ports in the > footwell of the cockpit. > > This is a clear example of how a slight step up in size of hull > allows for greater flexibility in customizing to your needs. That > said, I do maintain that the 36 footer, as built to the plans, > represents the ideal simple cruising vessel for two, and would > counsel anyone trying to choose between a 36 and a 40 to seriously > look at how much space they really need. The 36 footer represents > more closely Brent's philosophy of "go simply, go NOW" approach, > whereas the 40, being a much bigger boat is going to require many > more hours to finish (Gord has spent about as much time detailing > with stainless as he has building the hull), and more hours to > maintain. However, if you need the space due to crew size, then the > choice is easier to make. I think any hull larger than this would > leave the philosphy of simplicity behind in its wake and enter the > realm of luxury yachts that "take" more than they "give". When you > walk the docks, you can tell that it is the smaller boats that get > used, while the "ships" tend to be stationary. > > The owner has made the sidedecks a few inches wider than called for > on the plans, and this has yielded a very easy passage forward for > the crew. A possible side-benefit to this decision is that weight of > the cabinsides has been nudged that much closer to the centreline of > the hull. Moving several hundred pounds of steel over like that has > to be good for overall stability, I imagine. Again, this is > something that can be done more easily on the 40 footer because there > is that much more room down below. The interior space does not > appear to be impacted at all by the slightly narrowed cabin. > > The stainless detailing on this hull is quite exceptional; Gord has > been able to really polish up the welds where the horizontal railings > meet the vertical stanchions with the help of a remarkable new type > of polishing wheel that fits on his grinder. It looks and feels just > like a regular grinding wheel, but it does not "eat" at the steel the > way a grinding or cutting wheel would (which would leave big > gouges). Instead, it allows you to feather the weld into the > surrounding metal such that you cannot tell where the metal is joined > to another piece. Definitely a must-have accessory for detailing > work. Did I remember the name of this remarkable wheel? Of course > not! > > For all the portlights, Gord has followed the Swain way of not having > any small opening ports on the outside of the hull except for the > forward hatch, the forward port in the centre of the pilot house, and > two see-through hatches on the top of the pilot house. He has made > the fixed ports even stronger by recessing them into the hull, such > that no object can scrape at their edges. > > I'll conclude with the pilot house in this posting: While many > choose to put forward-leaning windows on Brent boats, Gord has chosen > the more typical aft-leaning windows. However, he has regained the > rain and sun shading benefits usually reserved for Brent-style > windows by putting a visor over the windows. > > That's about all for my report today. I hope to get over and see the > 40 footer Mishar some time, as it is afloat and complete. It will be > interesting to compare a finished boat to one in build. > > Alex > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19543|19535|2009-01-27 14:23:09|mark hamill|Re: Offshore Insurance|The company that advertises in the Bluewater "Currents" is "Yacht insurance" out of Sidney 250-656-2608 www.yacht-insurance.ca My agent for BC is Pat Anderson Insurance, 1-877-311-8158 www.patand.com in Vancouver BC both companies are brokers. Does the 7 seas organization have insurance?? I don't have any affiliation with either. MarkH| 19544|1489|2009-01-27 16:04:38|brentswain38|Re: New 40 footer album|Sch 40 pipe is standard water pipe here in Canada, and much of the world . It's almost 5/8th inch ID and just over 3/4 inch OD . Larger sizes come much closer to the specified ID , for example 2 inch sch 40 is very close to 2 inch ID. I think it has soemething to do with the water flow rate. Epoxy Tar is a coal tar based two part epoxy. TSP is trisodium phosphate, used for degreasing and removing oil. It is available in most paint stores and even some supermarkets, for cleaning. It's a powder you disolve in water. Very inexpensive. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "boatwayupnorth" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > I spent the last couple of days browsing through the archives - one > of the few bright sides of having a lumbago ... > Your message below is somewhat dated, but I wasn't able to find the > album you obviously have created in the photo-section: "40 Footer -- > With Amazing Grace". > Also, I found several times that somebody mentioned pictures posted > on a forum called "Origami2". Could anybody post a link to this if it > still exists? > > And here some questions to Brent (or anybody else who has been raised > with these bloody illogical imperial measurements ...): > I finally found out how to convert gauges for sheet metal to > millimeters, but what on earth is a "1/2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe" > mentioned as part of the trimtab steering? What does "sch 40" stand > for? > And my last questions are regarding the preparations for and final > painting of the hull. E.g. on Sat, Jan 24, 2009 Brent wrote: > > "I washed the galv with TSP , then vinegar, then water, then let it > dry, before epoxy taring it" > > What is "TSP" and "epoxy tar"? Could somebody give me a specific > brand for "epoxy tar", then I might be able to check what's in it and > to find an equivalent for it here in Europe. > > Any help appreciated! > > Walter > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Christie" > wrote: > > > > Dear Group, > > > > I've finally made my pilgrimage to see Gord's 40 footer being built > > in Vancouver, and have processed the photos and posted in an album > > entitled "40 Footer -- With Amazing Grace". > > > > The visit was very informative, and there's absolutely nothing like > > seeing the real thing to really get your head straight as to what > you > > are getting into with a project like this! There are so many > details > > that must be thought out on a boat that go beyond the basic notion > of > > the hull and deck, and certainly challenges at every turn that > demand > > creativity and patience to solve, as there is for many a custom > > boatbuilding project. > > > > The initial impression of the 40 footer bare hull is that it is > > a "ship" compared to the 36. However, after walking on the decks > and > > down below, I quickly became accustomed to its size, and the more > > time I spent on it, the more I felt that it would be a the right > size > > for long term living aboard for my family. It is large enough to > > accommodate food stores, water, spare equipment and fuel (the fin > > keel version that Gord is building has very ample tankage) for > > extensive journeys offshore, yet small enough to handle for two if > > set up properly. Gord has all lines running aft to the cockpit for > > this reason, and this should enhance single-handing capability. > Even > > a boat run by two people is really a single-hander, since each > person > > usually takes a watch on their own. > > > > Down below, I was pleased to see that the insides were not as > > cavernous as I had been expecting, but it was still very roomy. The > > space in the bow is big enough to really be creative and go beyond > > the usual v-berth and create a true useable cabin. I think this is > > because moving the aft bulkhead of the bow stateroom back will not > > steal too much space from the main salon. Alternately, one could > > still build a regular v-berth, but have an extra 4 feet to play > with > > for other uses. > > > > Back aft, below the cockpit, Gord is putting a large private berth > > which allows one to have an aft cabin and still maintain the aft > > cockpit outside. This can be done on the 36 footer, but the bed is > > smaller, the engine has to move forward into the main cabin, and > the > > cockpit footwell has to be sacrificed in order to gain room below. > > Ventilation for the aft cabin is provided via opening ports in the > > footwell of the cockpit. > > > > This is a clear example of how a slight step up in size of hull > > allows for greater flexibility in customizing to your needs. That > > said, I do maintain that the 36 footer, as built to the plans, > > represents the ideal simple cruising vessel for two, and would > > counsel anyone trying to choose between a 36 and a 40 to seriously > > look at how much space they really need. The 36 footer represents > > more closely Brent's philosophy of "go simply, go NOW" approach, > > whereas the 40, being a much bigger boat is going to require many > > more hours to finish (Gord has spent about as much time detailing > > with stainless as he has building the hull), and more hours to > > maintain. However, if you need the space due to crew size, then the > > choice is easier to make. I think any hull larger than this would > > leave the philosphy of simplicity behind in its wake and enter the > > realm of luxury yachts that "take" more than they "give". When you > > walk the docks, you can tell that it is the smaller boats that get > > used, while the "ships" tend to be stationary. > > > > The owner has made the sidedecks a few inches wider than called for > > on the plans, and this has yielded a very easy passage forward for > > the crew. A possible side-benefit to this decision is that weight > of > > the cabinsides has been nudged that much closer to the centreline > of > > the hull. Moving several hundred pounds of steel over like that has > > to be good for overall stability, I imagine. Again, this is > > something that can be done more easily on the 40 footer because > there > > is that much more room down below. The interior space does not > > appear to be impacted at all by the slightly narrowed cabin. > > > > The stainless detailing on this hull is quite exceptional; Gord > has > > been able to really polish up the welds where the horizontal > railings > > meet the vertical stanchions with the help of a remarkable new type > > of polishing wheel that fits on his grinder. It looks and feels > just > > like a regular grinding wheel, but it does not "eat" at the steel > the > > way a grinding or cutting wheel would (which would leave big > > gouges). Instead, it allows you to feather the weld into the > > surrounding metal such that you cannot tell where the metal is > joined > > to another piece. Definitely a must-have accessory for detailing > > work. Did I remember the name of this remarkable wheel? Of course > > not! > > > > For all the portlights, Gord has followed the Swain way of not > having > > any small opening ports on the outside of the hull except for the > > forward hatch, the forward port in the centre of the pilot house, > and > > two see-through hatches on the top of the pilot house. He has made > > the fixed ports even stronger by recessing them into the hull, such > > that no object can scrape at their edges. > > > > I'll conclude with the pilot house in this posting: While many > > choose to put forward-leaning windows on Brent boats, Gord has > chosen > > the more typical aft-leaning windows. However, he has regained the > > rain and sun shading benefits usually reserved for Brent-style > > windows by putting a visor over the windows. > > > > That's about all for my report today. I hope to get over and see > the > > 40 footer Mishar some time, as it is afloat and complete. It will > be > > interesting to compare a finished boat to one in build. > > > > Alex > > > | 19545|1284|2009-01-27 16:07:54|brentswain38|Re: Rudder|Build the skeg from the drawings, take the angle for the transom gusset off the top back corner of the skeg, weld it on the centreline a couple of inches inside the aft end of the transom. Tack the transom to it, then pull the plate around the transom edge. You can take the gussett out afer the transom is in. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" wrote: > > That was fast, > I was thinking the same thing, about taking the angle off the plans, > but figured there would be to much margin for error. Im going to > build it to the full 8 foot 9 then trim the angle later. > While Im at it I was also wondering about the angle for the Transom > and skeg do you do the skeg first then adjust the transom to match > the angle ? > Mexico sounds like a good idea,I was over to Mahone bay yesterday and > its frozen solid right out to the mouth. > Brian > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > You could get the angle off the drawing and give it a little extra > > kick up, but I prefer to wait , and take the angle off the boat when > > its leveled. > > It was minus 6 last night, snow forecast for this afternoon, then > > warming up, and raining , then clearing. Shoulda gone to Mexico. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent > > > Hows the weather in Comox? - 20 here. > > > I have a question about the rudder for my 31 footer. The plans > show the > > > rudder detail but not the whole assembly, the book shows the > whole > > > assembly but does not really give the angle for the botton where > it > > > lines up with the skeg. Since im building the "small" parts first > I > > > dont have the hull to take the angle from, I was wondering if you > have > > > any tricks to ensure that the bottom of the rudder lines up with > the > > > skeg bottom, or should I just leave some extra to trim off the > rudder > > > bottom when its hung. > > > Thanks > > > Brian > > > "Skookumchuck" > > > > > > | 19546|19546|2009-01-27 16:10:02|brentswain38|Boom length|I remember Rowland asking a while back about the boom length for the 36. It's just under 16 feet, so cut it at 16 feet, then when it's on the boat, cut it so it can't possibly it the backsaty in a Chinese gybe. Brent| 19547|19533|2009-01-27 16:12:52|brentswain38|Re: Can I continue to use existing manifold?|Excellent way to get rid of the heat exchanger. Using the heat exchanger for skeg water drasticaly reduces the efficiency of keel cooling. Go for it. Gte rid of the heat exchanger and weld the ends shut. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > Guys, > > I have converted La Chica to a keel cooling tank and a dry exhaust. I > am wondering if there is any reason why I should not continue to use > me existing manifold. It is aluminium with an integral coolant header > tank and heat exchanger. > > I am thinking of removing the heat exchanger core and welding the ends > shut. That will create a manifold surrounded by the tank. I will then > just pump the coolant through the tank on the way back to the keel > tank from the engine. > > Is there any reason why I should not do this? > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 19548|19483|2009-01-27 16:14:58|brentswain38|Re: Building with galvanized|Galvanizing is great above the waterline, but a disaster below. The paint refused to stick to the bottom of my galvanized rudder until all the galvanizing was gone. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > Peter > > > Did some checking and the galvanizer is about 150 miles from here. As small > as the keels and skeg are on the 26 I think I can blast and prime a lot > quicker than driving them to the galvanizer. > Sounds like you got a heck of a deal on that gun, If I could find one that > cheap I would buy it just to play with it . > Tom > > > > > > > > > Shouldn't be a problem. I've had assemblies bigger than the entire > > bilge keels hot dipped in my old job, BTW. If you're going to do this > > I'd suggest asking the galvaniser what's the biggest piece they can > > handle. If they can do the entire keel and you can haul it to them, > > weld them up and haul them down. You might need to leave a couple > > holes for drainage and plug them later but still a good way to go. > > Ditto for the skeg if you could fab it all in advance. > > > > I'll be back home in a week and after some tidying up around the place > > I think I'll finally have the time to build my boat. I'm going to look > > into getting galvanised plate, see if it's possible and how much if it is. > > > > Incidentally I picked up a Metco metal spray gun off of Ebay for $20. > > Haven't used it yet, not sure I ever will, but I couldn't resist it > > for the price. > > > > PDW > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19549|1489|2009-01-27 16:26:29|boatwayupnorth|Re: New 40 footer album|That was quick! Thanks Jim! I bookmarked your links and found out that Hempel has this coal tar epoxy. Never heard of it before. Looks like Hempel is selling it as underwater paint. Do you know if its possible to paint it over with regular marine paint? Hempel has it only in black and red. Thanks again, much appreciated! Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > schedule 40 pipe > http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ansi-steel-pipes-d_305.html > TSP > http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/inftsp.html > epoxy tar = coal tar epoxy paint > > | 19550|19535|2009-01-27 16:39:00|Gary Prebble|Re: Offshore Insurance|Thanks Mark...I will check that out... Gary -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > The company that advertises in the Bluewater "Currents" is "Yacht insurance" > out of Sidney 250-656-2608 www.yacht-insurance.ca > My agent for BC is Pat Anderson Insurance, 1-877-311-8158 www.patand.com in Vancouver > BC both companies are brokers. Does the 7 seas organization have insurance?? > I don't have any affiliation with either. MarkH > | 19551|1489|2009-01-27 16:44:10|boatwayupnorth|Re: New 40 footer album|Thanks Brent! Jim beat you with an earlier reply by a couple of minutes - se my reply. So, basically these Sch 40 pipes are standard water pipes - give or take a bit varying from country to country? Found out in the meantime what both TSP and epoxy tar is sold as here in Norway - don't know why I didn't find it when I googled it before. Could you tell me if you use this epoxy tar paint both inside and outside and over and under the waterline? Hempel, the manufacturer I found, markets it as underwater paint only. It is sold in black and red only - is it possible to paint it over with another paint system? Must probably be an epoxy based paint then? Thanks for your help! Looking very much forward to your book! Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Sch 40 pipe is standard water pipe here in Canada, and much of the > world . It's almost 5/8th inch ID and just over 3/4 inch OD . Larger > sizes come much closer to the specified ID , for example 2 inch sch 40 > is very close to 2 inch ID. I think it has soemething to do with the > water flow rate. > Epoxy Tar is a coal tar based two part epoxy. > TSP is trisodium phosphate, used for degreasing and removing oil. It > is available in most paint stores and even some supermarkets, for > cleaning. It's a powder you disolve in water. Very inexpensive. > Brent > | 19552|1489|2009-01-27 16:56:46|mark hamill|Re: New 40 footer album|I have used Clovatar epoxy tar from Cloverdale and it goes on thick and hardens overnight| 19553|19535|2009-01-27 18:38:56|martin demers|Re: Offshore Insurance|What kind of insurance is usual for a boat? Is it like on a car, where you can insure dammage for others on one side and your own on the other side? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: aguysailing@...: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:38:59 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Offshore Insurance Thanks Mark...I will check that out...Gary-- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote:>> The company that advertises in the Bluewater "Currents" is "Yacht insurance"> out of Sidney 250-656-2608 www.yacht-insurance.ca > My agent for BC is Pat Anderson Insurance, 1-877-311-8158 www.patand.com in Vancouver > BC both companies are brokers. Does the 7 seas organization have insurance??> I don't have any affiliation with either. MarkH> _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19554|19535|2009-01-27 18:50:20|mark hamill|Re: Offshore Insurance|My local boat insurance is an ouchy $763---$663 for the hull with $500 deductble and $2 million personal liability for $100. I think this is the last year I will carry hull coverage it is an older (1985) wood/epoxy boat. Interestingly, in Ontario the rates were about 1/4 here. Maybe that would be a place to check for your offshore insurance??| 19555|19535|2009-01-27 18:53:57|martin demers|Re: Offshore Insurance|can we go with personal liability only? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: mhamill1@...: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:50:18 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Offshore Insurance My local boat insurance is an ouchy $763---$663 for the hull with $500 deductble and $2 million personal liability for $100. I think this is the last year I will carry hull coverage it is an older (1985) wood/epoxy boat. Interestingly, in Ontario the rates were about 1/4 here. Maybe that would be a place to check for your offshore insurance?? _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19556|17655|2009-01-27 18:59:07|Martin Demers|Re: aluminium pilot house|- I always thought that aluminium pilot house was only the rear elevated section, from those pictures I see that the whole cabin top is of aluminium. Would it be possible and a good idea to also make the side decks and cockpit of aluminium? Martin. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > >   > some pics of my aluminium pilot house for a BS31 > i have left around 40mm of Green on the bottom, to trim off later. > Its been so nice working with aluminium after working with steel for the last 8 months. so light clean and easy to cut. > But i guess there is nothing like steel when hit a reef in the night. >   >   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic /943837413/view? picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc >   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic /428092647/view? picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc > > > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19557|1489|2009-01-27 19:01:57|mark hamill|Re: New 40 footer Hempel paint|I redid my bottom (don't go there you bad minded people) with an new epoxy coat (and yes it has been difficult to sit on hard surfaces since then;) and fairing. I found some Hempel antifouling on sale and applied that over the epoxy first putting down a epoxy primer on a sanded surface as per the recommendations on the product sheet. I found out something interesting about 2 part primer in that once catalyzed you don't have to use the can all at once--one can put the cover on and it will last for at least 5 days. The solvent gassing off seems to set the epoxy. It is really vile stuff so use a GOOD respirator meant for those fumes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "boatwayupnorth" wrote: > > Thanks Brent! > Jim beat you with an earlier reply by a couple of minutes - se my > reply. So, basically these Sch 40 pipes are standard water pipes - give > or take a bit varying from country to country? > Found out in the meantime what both TSP and epoxy tar is sold as here > in Norway - don't know why I didn't find it when I googled it before. > Could you tell me if you use this epoxy tar paint both inside and > outside and over and under the waterline? Hempel, the manufacturer I > found, markets it as underwater paint only. It is sold in black and red > only - is it possible to paint it over with another paint system? Must > probably be an epoxy based paint then? > Thanks for your help! Looking very much forward to your book! > > Walter > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Sch 40 pipe is standard water pipe here in Canada, and much of the > > world . It's almost 5/8th inch ID and just over 3/4 inch OD . Larger > > sizes come much closer to the specified ID , for example 2 inch sch 40 > > is very close to 2 inch ID. I think it has soemething to do with the > > water flow rate. > > Epoxy Tar is a coal tar based two part epoxy. > > TSP is trisodium phosphate, used for degreasing and removing oil. It > > is available in most paint stores and even some supermarkets, for > > cleaning. It's a powder you disolve in water. Very inexpensive. > > Brent > > > | 19558|19535|2009-01-27 19:53:49|Paul Wilson|Re: Offshore Insurance|I haven't had insurance since 1996 and don't miss it. My neighbor had insurance and forgot to put oil in his engine after an oil change. Insurance paid for a new diesel engine. He then blew out all his sails racing after failing to reef. The insurance company declared it was an act of god after several other idiots did the same thing and paid out. I figure insurance is paying for others mistakes. For my dumber than a sack full of hammers neighbor, insurance was a great thing. For me, why should my money finance other peoples screw-ups? Fire in a boatyard or marina is probably the biggest risk to a boat, in my opinion. Insurance companies will give you cheap boatyard insurance but charge you a lot for offshore insurance. The liability risk in a boatyard is much higher. It doesn't make much sense to me. Personal liability is a thorny issue. If someone hurts themselves on my boat, will they sue me for everything? I think it is unlikely since they would have to prove me negligent. I guess that is a risk I am willing to take. For me, I would rather spend the money on a present for the boat every year which will truly make the boat safer or better. Over many years, it really adds up. My two cents, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mark hamill Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:50 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Offshore Insurance My local boat insurance is an ouchy $763---$663 for the hull with $500 deductble and $2 million personal liability for $100. I think this is the last year I will carry hull coverage it is an older (1985) wood/epoxy boat. Interestingly, in Ontario the rates were about 1/4 here. Maybe that would be a place to check for your offshore insurance?? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19559|19535|2009-01-27 19:58:21|mark hamill|Re: Offshore Insurance|Martin: Just got off the phone with my boat agent and she said the PLPD could be added to the house insurance--since we don't have our house insurance with this company I have just taken a quiz about the olde abode and she will let me know what a combination of house insurance and boat PLPD will be. Tommorrow I will phone my house agent and see what they say. Interesting. Let you know the results. MarkH| 19560|19535|2009-01-27 20:18:47|Knut F Garshol|Re: Offshore Insurance|Around where I am (Florida) there are marinas that will not rent you a dock space unless you have liability insurance. There are also marinas where you cannot dock as a guest without the same. I am still without any insurance at all and I intend to stay like this for as long as possible. Knut Archetype (BS36) _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mark hamill Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:58 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Offshore Insurance Martin: Just got off the phone with my boat agent and she said the PLPD could be added to the house insurance--since we don't have our house insurance with this company I have just taken a quiz about the olde abode and she will let me know what a combination of house insurance and boat PLPD will be. Tommorrow I will phone my house agent and see what they say. Interesting. Let you know the results. MarkH No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.14/1918 - Release Date: 1/27/2009 7:26 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.14/1918 - Release Date: 1/27/2009 7:26 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19561|19535|2009-01-28 00:33:49|silascrosby|Re: Offshore Insurance|We insured our boat for B.C.coastal cruising for a couple of years after launching, to the tune of about $750 per year in the mid-nineties. After a couple of years we let that lapse as our comfort and confidence with the boat grew.That insurance policy, as I remember it, covered us for a trip down the U.S. coast within ? 75 miles of the beach or thereabouts. Never really considered offshore insurance. For ~$75 per year we do have liability insurance for the boat's operation tacked onto our homeowner's insurance. The only catch is owning the house. Ha!, big catch! We were asked for liability insurance once in LaPaz, Mexico. They already had our week's moorage fees and I had no paper proof onboard of the insurance. They were happy to have the week's fees and never made a big issue of the lack of insurance. Now, after years of fun, it seems that we've got our money's worth out of the boat. It's all profit now.( I would still hate to lose her). Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Around where I am (Florida) there are marinas that will not rent you a dock > space unless you have liability insurance. There are also marinas where you > cannot dock as a guest without the same. I am still without any insurance at > all and I intend to stay like this for as long as possible. > > > > Knut > > Archetype (BS36) > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of mark hamill > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:58 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Offshore Insurance > > > > Martin: > Just got off the phone with my boat agent and she said the PLPD could be > added to the house > insurance--since we don't have our house insurance with this company I have > just taken a > quiz about the olde abode and she will let me know what a combination of > house insurance > and boat PLPD will be. Tommorrow I will phone my house agent and see what > they say. > Interesting. Let you know the results. > MarkH > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.14/1918 - Release Date: 1/27/2009 > 7:26 AM > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.14/1918 - Release Date: 1/27/2009 > 7:26 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19562|19533|2009-01-28 02:09:24|lachica31|Re: Can I continue to use existing manifold?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > Hi Paul, > I am not sure I follow you on what you want to do but I will give it a > shot.. > You should have a thermostat controlling the amount of flow, otherwise your > engine will not run hot enough. I don't have a heat exchanger with my skeg > cooler but have a water cooled exhaust manifold. The cooling circulates in > the engine and when it gets hot enough for the thermostat to open, the hot > coolant goes into the keel cooler then out again through the exhaust > manifold and then into the engine. Having it this way preheats the cold > water via the exhaust manifold before it hits the engine. Dumb question, > but is the manifold/exchanger you mention part of the exhaust or separate? > The exhaust manifold will get very hot without some kind of cooling. Are > you sure it's aluminium and not some other alloy? I think some manifolds > are magnesium, so welding it could be a problem. I would rather have > something other than aluminium but with anti- freeze it probably would be > OK. > > Any high point in coolant lines needs a place for air to escape or you could > end up with air locks. If your header/ expansion tank is at a high spot it > will let the air out and allow for expansion in the coolant if it is large > enough. It might be worth keeping your manifold/tank for these reasons. If > it doesn't do any of this (cooling exhaust, expansion, air bleeding), it is > just something else to go wrong and serves no purpose. > > I hope my jumbled thoughts help... Hi Paul (Wilson), Thanks for your input. Yes, I am aware of the points that you you raised and will keep them in mind as I work through this. The unit is one of those marine gems (quite common on modern engines). The header tank and heat exchanger wrap around the exhaust manifold. And yes all done in Aluminium and to top it all off, the end caps (at each end of the heat exchanger core) are bronze! Only a 3mm O ring separates the cap from the aluminium housing and no sacrificial anode or provision for one. What the types who designed this little wonder of marine engineering were smoking, I don't know. In the 10 odd years that I have had it, I have had to weld up holes caused by corrosion three times. Hopefully removing salt water from the equation will improve things. Regards, Paul Thompson.| 19563|19533|2009-01-28 02:10:45|lachica31|Re: Can I continue to use existing manifold?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Excellent way to get rid of the heat exchanger. Using the heat > exchanger for skeg water drasticaly reduces the efficiency of keel > cooling. Go for it. Gte rid of the heat exchanger and weld the ends shut. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > Guys, > > > > I have converted La Chica to a keel cooling tank and a dry exhaust. I > > am wondering if there is any reason why I should not continue to use > > me existing manifold. It is aluminium with an integral coolant header > > tank and heat exchanger. > > > > I am thinking of removing the heat exchanger core and welding the ends > > shut. That will create a manifold surrounded by the tank. I will then > > just pump the coolant through the tank on the way back to the keel > > tank from the engine. > > > > Is there any reason why I should not do this? > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > Thanks Brent, will do.| 19564|19533|2009-01-28 02:15:12|lachica31|Re: Can I continue to use existing manifold?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > That's what I did on my engine, took the heater exchanger element out > and welded it shut. > > Regards, > Ted > Thanks Ted, I though it would be the way but know harm in checking with the guys here. This list can be quite a fount of knowledge (and sometimes a lot of amazing bull :-).| 19565|19565|2009-01-28 05:04:54|brianchabassol|Rudder material|Hi again,Still plugging along was wondering about the Rudder material 1/8 or 1/16 ? Thanks Brian| 19566|1489|2009-01-28 07:52:22|boatwayupnorth|Re: New 40 footer Hempel paint|Hei Mark, congratulations with your new bottom! Hope it is easier to sit in the meanwhile ... So, it means I have to reprime over the epoxy tar and then I can paint with whatever paint and color I choose? Antifouling under the waterline and a regular epoxy paint over? Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > I redid my bottom (don't go there you bad minded people) with an new epoxy coat (and > yes it has been difficult to sit on hard surfaces since then;) and fairing. I found some > Hempel antifouling on sale and applied that over the epoxy first putting down a epoxy > primer on a sanded surface as per the recommendations on the product sheet. I found out > something interesting about 2 part primer in that once catalyzed you don't have to use the > can all at once--one can put the cover on and it will last for at least 5 days. The solvent > gassing off seems to set the epoxy. It is really vile stuff so use a GOOD respirator meant > for those fumes. | 19567|19567|2009-01-28 09:25:17|prairiemaidca|Rudder Material|Hi Brian: The materials list on the plans calls for the use of 1/8in. mild, although I believe someone made one out of stainless at some point. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 19568|19565|2009-01-28 09:53:53|Carl Anderson|Re: Rudder material|Brian, I used 1/8" plate for the rudder. Using 3/16" would make it very heavy & difficult to drive the pipe through as well. Carl sv-mom.com brianchabassol wrote: > > > Hi again,Still plugging along was wondering about the Rudder material > 1/8 or 1/16 ? > Thanks > Brian > > | 19569|19483|2009-01-28 10:01:18|Tom Mann|Re: Building with galvanized|Denis Its good that you bring that up, sorry to here it but at least people can get an idea of how bad it is in the right circumstances. Were you wearing a resperator at the time? Lucky enough I have never been sick from it, other than a headake. Welding a lot in the dairy construction buisness, I have welded galvanized for days on end and in my early days didnt wear a reperator just kept my face out of the line of smoke. I have gotten a tad smarter and wear a resperator most of the time when welding on jobs like that. Welding in general is not healthy and if welding in confined area can be deadly given the right circumstaces, From the fumes off the flux on welding rods or flux core wire or even mig,the carbondioxide and or argon take away the 02 and you die.. Freash air supply and reperator take away most of the dangers but murffies law prevales from time to time. Tom On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Denis Buggy wrote: > dear Tom some years ago I made some large sliding doors for a industrial > building and I had to finish the welding on a ladder where the fumes of the > welding came from below me as I could only weld from above in the > circumstances . > I nearly died I got GALVO which is inhaling ammonia and other perfumes > from the process , your throat narrows to the with of a pencil and you get > bleeding lesions on the air passageway of your throat . you must try and > sleep sitting up for a period of 3 weeks and the belief that your throat is > about to close altogether and smother you if you sleep is ever present , I > was fit and young and I made it . take care welding galvanize is not even > close to mild steel in health issues . regards Denis Buggy > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19570|19570|2009-01-28 10:51:58|Carl Volkwein|specs for 26'|I misplaced my origami boats books, how wide is the 26'er,what's the plate thickness, how much are the plans? And howcan I get anew book? carlvolkwein@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19571|1489|2009-01-28 11:16:05|john kupris|Re: New 40 footer album|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "boatwayupnorth" wrote: Hi, washed my house with tsp and no gloves, 3 layers of skin fell off. It can be used as a paint remover when mixed to be thick enough > > Thanks Brent! > Jim beat you with an earlier reply by a couple of minutes - se my > reply. So, basically these Sch 40 pipes are standard water pipes - give > or take a bit varying from country to country? > Found out in the meantime what both TSP and epoxy tar is sold as here > in Norway - don't know why I didn't find it when I googled it before. > Could you tell me if you use this epoxy tar paint both inside and > outside and over and under the waterline? Hempel, the manufacturer I > found, markets it as underwater paint only. It is sold in black and red > only - is it possible to paint it over with another paint system? Must > probably be an epoxy based paint then? > Thanks for your help! Looking very much forward to your book! > > Walter > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Sch 40 pipe is standard water pipe here in Canada, and much of the > > world . It's almost 5/8th inch ID and just over 3/4 inch OD . Larger > > sizes come much closer to the specified ID , for example 2 inch sch 40 > > is very close to 2 inch ID. I think it has soemething to do with the > > water flow rate. > > Epoxy Tar is a coal tar based two part epoxy. > > TSP is trisodium phosphate, used for degreasing and removing oil. It > > is available in most paint stores and even some supermarkets, for > > cleaning. It's a powder you disolve in water. Very inexpensive. > > Brent > > > | 19572|19565|2009-01-28 11:57:56|theboilerflue|Re: Rudder material|Where abouts are you building right now brian? I'm "vacationing" in halifax right now, thought maybe i could come hav a look see where your're at. give me a call 250-218-2929 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" wrote: > > Hi again,Still plugging along was wondering about the Rudder material > 1/8 or 1/16 ? > Thanks > Brian > | 19573|19565|2009-01-28 12:56:10|brianchabassol|Re: Rudder material|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" wrote: > > Hi again,Still plugging along was wondering about the Rudder material > 1/8 or 1/16 ? > Thanks > Brian > Sorry that should have red 3/16 Brian| 19574|19565|2009-01-28 12:59:23|brianchabassol|Re: Rudder material|Hi Carl,I kind of thought 3/16 seemed heavy but figured it was best to ask those who have already been there. Should have the rudder done next week Thanks Brian --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Brian, > > I used 1/8" plate for the rudder. > Using 3/16" would make it very heavy & difficult to drive the pipe > through as well. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > > brianchabassol wrote: > > > > > > Hi again,Still plugging along was wondering about the Rudder material > > 1/8 or 1/16 ? > > Thanks > > Brian > > > > > | 19575|19535|2009-01-28 12:59:30|Gerald Levy|Re: Offshore Insurance|I recently went through a similar process. I had bought a 35' steel sailboat built in 1983. The age of the boat wasn't so much of an issue but the construction material was: I was told flatly by some carriers that they would not insure used steel boats. The fact that I just had a survey performed with ultrasound testing (in which the boat came through with flying colors) mattered not a bit. Eventually, I obtained a coastal liability-only policy for $500 / year. While it's true that most marinas will insist on insurance (at least, on the East Coast of the US) I felt I needed *at least* a liability policy: otherwise a 'fender-bender' with a multi-million dollar yacht could cost me everything I own. Jerry| 19576|19565|2009-01-28 13:09:03|brianchabassol|Re: Rudder material|Hi Im down in the Annoplis valley south mountian, lived out west for 10 years though and realize these are not mountians. The "boat" is basicly a pair of keels,cleats,mast step,anchorwinch,gooseneck,stove,windows,driplips,mooring bits,boom,sails, ect Im doing as Brent said in his book to build the small parts first. I will be working on the rudder next week then Im going to collect and cut the metal for the cabin and decks so its ready to go when the hull gets pulled together. Hoping to order the metal for the hull late summer and have it tacked together for the fall. You are welcome to come and see but its more parts right now than boat. My number is 902-847-9894 What brings you to Halifax? Brian --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Where abouts are you building right now brian? I'm "vacationing" in > halifax right now, thought maybe i could come hav a look see where > your're at. give me a call 250-218-2929 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" > wrote: > > > > Hi again,Still plugging along was wondering about the Rudder material > > 1/8 or 1/16 ? > > Thanks > > Brian > > > | 19577|19570|2009-01-28 13:42:26|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: specs for 26'|Hi Carl, 8 foot beam, 10 gauge plate for the hull, 3/16" for keel sides and skeg. Paul I misplaced my origami boats books, how wide is the 26'er,what's the plate > thickness, how much are the plans? And howcan I get anew book? > carlvolkwein@... > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 19578|19570|2009-01-28 17:35:40|Carl Volkwein|Re: specs for 26'|Paul, Thanks for the quick reply carlvolkwein@... --- On Wed, 1/28/09, paulcotter@... wrote: From: paulcotter@... Subject: Re: [origamiboats] specs for 26' To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 28, 2009, 1:42 PM Hi Carl, 8 foot beam, 10 gauge plate for the hull, 3/16" for keel sides and skeg. Paul I misplaced my origami boats books, how wide is the 26'er,what's the plate > thickness, how much are the plans? And howcan I get anew book? > carlvolkwein@ yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19579|19483|2009-01-29 04:58:36|peter_d_wiley|Re: Building with galvanized|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Galvanizing is great above the waterline, but a disaster below. The > paint refused to stick to the bottom of my galvanized rudder until all > the galvanizing was gone. Wrong primer or bad prep before using the primer. My guys used to use 2 part epoxy paint over galv on the ship and the paint stuck fine. WE did this because we didn't want dissolved zinc contaminating scientific instruments but wasn't worth making everything out of s/steel. I notice a couple more comments about care needed in welding it. I'm still a long way from my reference library but I know there's notes in the Lincoln books on welding galv and the bottom line is, get a clean air source. Brent's use of a long bit of tubing would be the minimum. If I do it I'll probably try a SCUBA regulator on a long hose (I have tanks, do NOT use a normal air compressor unless you like your lungs contaminated by compressor oil). PDW| 19580|17655|2009-01-29 13:33:02|martin demers|Re: aluminium pilot house|any comments anyone??? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: mdemers2005@...: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:59:04 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house - I always thought that aluminium pilot house was only the rear elevated section, from those pictures I see that the whole cabin top is of aluminium. Would it be possible and a good idea to also make the side decks and cockpit of aluminium?Martin.-- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote:>> >  > some pics of my aluminium pilot house for a BS31> i have left around 40mm of Green on the bottom, to trim off later.> Its been so nice working with aluminium after working with steel for the last 8 months. so light clean and easy to cut.> But i guess there is nothing like steel when hit a reef in the night.>  >  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/943837413/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc>  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/428092647/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc> > > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19581|19483|2009-01-29 14:00:53|Paul Wilson|Re: Building with galvanized|I once heard the theory from a paint rep that if there is any scratch or pit the zinc leaches out as it tries to protect the metal and lifts the paint. He said you are better off without zinc coatings underwater. It could possibly be a reaction with the copper anti-fouling as well if there is not enough of a barrier coat between the two. I am not sure what to make of it, there have been many boats made with zinc primer that haven't had any problems, so it is just a theory. Maybe galvanizing, with its heavier zinc coating, is more of a problem. Cheers, Paul > > Galvanizing is great above the waterline, but a disaster below. The > paint refused to stick to the bottom of my galvanized rudder until all > the galvanizing was gone. Wrong primer or bad prep before using the primer. My guys used to use 2 part epoxy paint over galv on the ship and the paint stuck fine. WE did this because we didn't want dissolved zinc contaminating scientific instruments but wasn't worth making everything out of s/steel. PDW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19582|17655|2009-01-29 14:00:58|djackson99@aol.com|Re: aluminium pilot house|Martin It looks great! :) How are you planning to attach it to the steel deck? My guess would be that the joint between the side deck and hull has a lot more stress, and anything less than a fully welded stiffener like the side deck would compromise the strength. But you could bolt aluminum to the stiffener if you could figure out a way to keep the joint relatively dry. Yes, I think aluminum is a fun material to work with too.  My biggest problem with it is that it is so easy to gouge the surface. Thanks for sharing your work. Doug Jackson www.submarineboat.com -----Original Message----- From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:32 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house any comments anyone??? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: mdemers2005@...: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:59:04 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house - I always thought that aluminium pilot house was only the rear elevated section, from those pictures I see that the whole cabin top is of aluminium. Would it be possible and a good idea to also make the side decks and cockpit of aluminium?Martin.-- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote:>> >  > some pics of my aluminium pilot house for a BS31> i have left around 40mm of Green on the bottom, to trim off later.> Its been so nice working with aluminium after working with steel for the last 8 months. so light clean and easy to cut.> But i guess there is nothing like steel when hit a reef in the night.>  >  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/943837413/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc>  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/428092647/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc> > > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19583|17655|2009-01-29 14:07:44|martin demers|Re: aluminium pilot house|Doug, I was thinking of welding a 4in. wide stainless thick piece to the hull (at 90 deg.) all around of the boat and bolt the side deck/cabin top/cockpit assembly to it. In between I would add a marine scealant. Does that make sense? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: djackson99@...: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:00:34 -0500Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house MartinIt looks great! :)How are you planning to attach it to the steel deck?My guess would be that the joint between the side deck and hull has a lot more stress, and anything less than a fully welded stiffener like the side deck would compromise the strength. But you could bolt aluminum to the stiffener if you could figure out a way to keep the joint relatively dry.Yes, I think aluminum is a fun material to work with too. My biggest problem with it is that it is so easy to gouge the surface.Thanks for sharing your work.Doug Jacksonwww.submarineboat.com-----Original Message-----From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSent: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:32 pmSubject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot houseany comments anyone???To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: mdemers2005@...: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:59:04 +0000Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house- I always thought that aluminium pilot house was only the rear elevated section, from those pictures I see that the whole cabin top is of aluminium. Would it be possible and a good idea to also make the side decks and cockpit of aluminium?Martin.-- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote:>> >  > some pics of my aluminium pilot house for a BS31> i have left around 40mm of Green on the bottom, to trim off later.> Its been sonice working with aluminium after working with steel for the last 8 months. so light clean and easy to cut.> But i guess there is nothing like steel when hit a reef in the night.>  >  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/943837413/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc>  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/428092647/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=13&count=12&dir=asc> > > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19584|17655|2009-01-29 14:25:23|djackson99@aol.com|Re: aluminium pilot house|Yes, that's clear.? Do you plan to somehow isolate the bolts??? --Doug -----Original Message----- From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 1:07 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house Doug, I was thinking of welding a 4in. wide stainless thick piece to the hull (at 90 deg.) all around of the boat and bolt the side deck/cabin top/cockpit assembly to it. In between I would add a marine scealant. Does that make sense? Martin. ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19585|17655|2009-01-29 14:28:19|martin demers|Re: aluminium pilot house|Stainless bolts! Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: djackson99@...: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:24:08 -0500Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house Yes, that's clear.? Do you plan to somehow isolate the bolts??? --Doug-----Original Message-----From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comSent: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 1:07 pmSubject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot houseDoug,I was thinking of welding a 4in. wide stainless thick piece to the hull (at 90 deg.) all around of the boat and bolt the side deck/cabin top/cockpit assembly to it. In between I would add a marine scealant.Does that make sense?Martin.?[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19586|17655|2009-01-29 15:19:47|Knut F Garshol|Re: aluminium pilot house|Why complicate things and increase the cost when you are achieving close to nothing (as far as I can see)> The weight difference at deck level will not influence stability in any significant way and more seriously, you have now gone back to the standard headache of the plastic boats with leaks in the hull/deck joint. A sealant length of twice bow to stern + in exchange for a full length mild steel weld does not make sense. To attach an aluminum cabin top and a pilot house to steel side-decks via a vertical flange is a totally different story and can be done successfully. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house Yes, that's clear.? Do you plan to somehow isolate the bolts??? --Doug -----Original Message----- From: martin demers To: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 1:07 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house Doug, I was thinking of welding a 4in. wide stainless thick piece to the hull (at 90 deg.) all around of the boat and bolt the side deck/cabin top/cockpit assembly to it. In between I would add a marine scealant. Does that make sense? Martin. ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.15/1923 - Release Date: 1/29/2009 7:13 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.15/1923 - Release Date: 1/29/2009 7:13 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19587|17655|2009-01-29 15:23:23|djackson99@aol.com|Re: aluminium pilot house|Do stainless bolts not corrode if they are conductors between the steel and the aluminum or is it bearable??? --Doug Stainless bolts! ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19588|17655|2009-01-29 16:08:48|Paul Wilson|Re: aluminium pilot house|SS bolts will corrode aluminum if not insulated. Make sure you use 316 SS. I don't think 304 would be good enough. I wouldn't rely on sealant alone (even if properly painted) since it squeezes out too much under the bolt heads. A good gasket (rubber?) with lots of sealant and shoulder washers (nylon?) under the bolts would be the way to go in my uneducated opinion. I know it's been done before. If no one here has personal experience (I don't), you might want to try boatdesign.net or the metal boat society to see how it has been done before. Such a critical area has to be 100%. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 9:23 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house Do stainless bolts not corrode if they are conductors between the steel and the aluminum or is it bearable??? --Doug Stainless bolts! ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19589|1489|2009-01-29 17:05:21|mark hamill|Re: New 40 footer Hempel paint|I have never used epoxy paint for above water. Always some marine type of paint. YOu might want to avoid a white paint for the cabin top or at least the area forrward of the cockpit ans I have found the glare to be really intense. I now have a sandy color and it is much easier on the eyes. With regard to the primer and then antifouling I did it beacasue it was recommended by the paint store. The first time I painted the antifouling I did not use a primer and it seemed to be OK. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "boatwayupnorth" wrote: > > Hei Mark, > congratulations with your new bottom! Hope it is easier to sit in the > meanwhile ... > So, it means I have to reprime over the epoxy tar and then I can > paint with whatever paint and color I choose? Antifouling under the > waterline and a regular epoxy paint over? > > Walter > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" > wrote: > > > > I redid my bottom (don't go there you bad minded people) with an > new epoxy coat (and > > yes it has been difficult to sit on hard surfaces since then;) and > fairing. I found some > > Hempel antifouling on sale and applied that over the epoxy first > putting down a epoxy > > primer on a sanded surface as per the recommendations on the > product sheet. I found out > > something interesting about 2 part primer in that once catalyzed > you don't have to use the > > can all at once--one can put the cover on and it will last for at > least 5 days. The solvent > > gassing off seems to set the epoxy. It is really vile stuff so use > a GOOD respirator meant > > for those fumes. > | 19590|17655|2009-01-29 21:34:21|Carl Anderson|Re: aluminium pilot house|I would use something like TefGel to isolate the aluminum and stainless. The aluminum will turn to white powder without any isolation from the stainless. This is what I used to isolate the stainless from the aluminum on my mast. Check out: http://www.tefgel.com/ Carl sv-mom.com djackson99@... wrote: > > > > Do stainless bolts not corrode if they are conductors between the steel > and the aluminum or is it bearable??? --Doug > > Stainless bolts! > > ? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 19591|17655|2009-01-30 00:09:27|Aaron Williams|Re: aluminium pilot house|This was posted not to long ago and I would recomend everyone get there own copy   http://www.ssina.com/publications /salt_corrosion. html --- On Thu, 1/29/09, djackson99@... wrote: From: djackson99@... Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 11:23 AM Do stainless bolts not corrode if they are conductors between the steel and the aluminum or is it bearable??? --Doug Stainless bolts! ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19592|17655|2009-01-30 03:17:26|peter_d_wiley|Re: aluminium pilot house|Agree with what's below. The correct way to attach aluminium to stainless steel via bolts is to drill the holes oversize, use a nylon sleeve in the hole and nylon washers top & bottom. We did this in the past on some scientific equipment and it was a PITA. The flange is going to be interesting. You need it watertight but need to keep a barrier between the 2 metals. How you manage this and keep it from leaking is going to be a real interesting challenge. Frankly I think it's an idea not worth pursuing. A 3mm steel deck is going to be around 500 kg (7.8 kg/m2/mm of thickness. A 6mm aluminium deck is going to be about 280 kg (2.6kg/m2/mm of thickness). Assumption is there's approx 21 m2 of deck area, I used a real simplified triangle. Anyway the MOST you're going to save in mass is about 200 kg, for a huge amount of hassle. Personally I wouldn't do it and I'd be real suspicious about buying a used boat done like this. It's in the same league as putting a wooden deck on a steel hull. Might be possible but what's the point? PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > SS bolts will corrode aluminum if not insulated. Make sure you use 316 SS. > I don't think 304 would be good enough. I wouldn't rely on sealant alone > (even if properly painted) since it squeezes out too much under the bolt > heads. A good gasket (rubber?) with lots of sealant and shoulder washers > (nylon?) under the bolts would be the way to go in my uneducated opinion. I > know it's been done before. If no one here has personal experience (I > don't), you might want to try boatdesign.net or the metal boat society to > see how it has been done before. Such a critical area has to be 100%. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of djackson99@... > Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 9:23 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house > > > > > Do stainless bolts not corrode if they are conductors between the steel and > the aluminum or is it bearable??? --Doug > > Stainless bolts! > > ? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19593|17655|2009-01-30 10:05:08|Doug|Re: aluminium pilot house|Hi Carl So this stuff fills the voids because its the air, or moisture in the voids where the electrolysis occurs that causes the corrosion. So we either isolate the conductivity completely or we make sure that its a really good clean contact. Right? If that is the case then could the aluminum could be seperated from the steel with inner tube rubber or other gasket material to cover the large areas and then TefGel used on the bolts that cross the joint instead of insulating them with nylon? Is see testing on the www.tefgel.com site but the numbers mean nothing to me. Have you used this before, and can you vouch for it's long term effectiveness? Thanks Doug J www.submarineboat.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I would use something like TefGel to isolate the aluminum and stainless. > The aluminum will turn to white powder without any isolation from the > stainless. > This is what I used to isolate the stainless from the aluminum on my mast. > Check out: > > http://www.tefgel.com/ > > > Carl > sv-mom.com | 19594|17655|2009-01-30 11:59:47|Tom Mann|Re: aluminium pilot house|Doug From what I understand rubber is not good on aluminum and after working on aluminum cattle trailers that had rubber floor mats it's deffenantly not good. Holes all over under where the mats were. Tom On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 7:05 AM, Doug wrote: > Hi Carl > > So this stuff fills the voids because its the air, or moisture in the > voids where the electrolysis occurs that causes the corrosion. So we > either isolate the conductivity completely or we make sure that its a > really good clean contact. Right? > > If that is the case then could the aluminum could be seperated from > the steel with inner tube rubber or other gasket material to cover the > large areas and then TefGel used on the bolts that cross the joint > instead of insulating them with nylon? > > Is see testing on the www.tefgel.com site but the numbers mean nothing > to me. Have you used this before, and can you vouch for it's long term > effectiveness? > > Thanks > Doug J > www.submarineboat.com > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > I would use something like TefGel to isolate the aluminum and stainless. > > The aluminum will turn to white powder without any isolation from the > > stainless. > > This is what I used to isolate the stainless from the aluminum on my > mast. > > Check out: > > > > http://www.tefgel.com/ > > > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19595|17655|2009-01-30 12:29:35|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: aluminium pilot house|Aluminum poltice corrosion? ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 7:05 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house Hi Carl So this stuff fills the voids because its the air, or moisture in the voids where the electrolysis occurs that causes the corrosion. So we either isolate the conductivity completely or we make sure that its a really good clean contact. Right? If that is the case then could the aluminum could be seperated from the steel with inner tube rubber or other gasket material to cover the large areas and then TefGel used on the bolts that cross the joint instead of insulating them with nylon? Is see testing on the www.tefgel.com site but the numbers mean nothing to me. Have you used this before, and can you vouch for it's long term effectiveness? Thanks Doug J www.submarineboat.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I would use something like TefGel to isolate the aluminum and stainless. > The aluminum will turn to white powder without any isolation from the > stainless. > This is what I used to isolate the stainless from the aluminum on my mast. > Check out: > > http://www.tefgel.com/ > > > Carl > sv-mom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19596|17655|2009-01-30 13:34:33|Doug|Re: aluminium pilot house|Thanks Ian "Poultice Corrosion This form of corrosion can attack all metals, but aluminum is the most highly susceptible metal found in most pleasure boats. When moisture is held adjacent to something made of aluminum, and there is an absence of a supply of air at the interface, a chemical reaction takes place at the surface of the metal. The aluminum is transformed into an aluminum hydroxide substance which looks like a thick, white, pasty substance. It has no strength at all. Large pits can be eaten into the material in a relatively short time period (months) and the result is usually a complete compromise of the material. Poultice corrosion most commonly manifests itself in the damage of aluminum fuel tanks. Up until very recently, boat manufacturers typically stabilized fuel tanks with materials that were moisture absorbent (like spray-in foams) or with supports where moisture could be trapped between the support and the tank (like rubber placed between the tank and the securing straps). As long as the areas stayed perfectly dry there were no problems. But low in the boat where water can accumulate and get splashed around, fuel tanks have been affected." -- http://qualitymarineservices.net/other_corrosion.html That's the stuff that got Tom's aluminum cattle trailer. Tom, your cows rode in style, we never gave our pigs such comforts. I do have a great story about the trailer coming unhitched on day and the pigs passing us on the highway at about 65 mph. :) So it's not the rubber, its getting moisture trapped in there. I doubt it would do the steel side any favors either. So we stick the rubber down with Sika and put the joint up off the deck out of standing water. Any better ideas? --Doug Jackson --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ian and Jean Campbell" wrote: > > Aluminum poltice corrosion? | 19597|17655|2009-01-30 13:42:49|Knut F Garshol|Re: aluminium pilot house|Doug wrote: So it's not the rubber, its getting moisture trapped in there. I doubt it would do the steel side any favors either. So we stick the rubber down with Sika and put the joint up off the deck out of standing water. Any better ideas? Sound advice applicable to mounting a pilothouse and/or cabin top on a vertical flange off of a steel side-deck. However, attaching SS to the hull and an aluminum side-deck to the SS for a truly marginal weight benefit and buying increased cost and complexity, that does not make much sense [to me, that is :-)) ]. Knut _____ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.16/1925 - Release Date: 1/30/2009 7:37 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.16/1925 - Release Date: 1/30/2009 7:37 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19598|17655|2009-01-30 14:36:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 06:34:30PM -0000, Doug wrote: > > So it's not the rubber, its getting moisture trapped in there. I doubt > it would do the steel side any favors either. So we stick the rubber > down with Sika and put the joint up off the deck out of standing > water. Any better ideas? I recall this being brought up here a couple of years ago. At the time, I mentioned the way that the US Navy and CG do it on their small tenders, where they use steel for the hull and aluminum for the deck and superstructure: explosion-welded steel/aluminum strips. I also recall mentioning some sources for these that I'd found in searching the Net. Seems like the best solution: no gaskets, no leaks, no corrosion - weld it up and you're done. I don't know anything about the price, but I can't imagine that it would be all that high - especially compared to the time and cost of dealing with all the goop, etc. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19599|17655|2009-01-30 15:11:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 02:33:19PM -0500, Benjamin Okopnik wrote: > > I recall this being brought up here a couple of years ago. At the time, > I mentioned the way that the US Navy and CG do it on their small tenders, > where they use steel for the hull and aluminum for the deck and > superstructure: explosion-welded steel/aluminum strips. I also recall > mentioning some sources for these that I'd found in searching the Net. Looking back through my old emails, I see that I _didn't_ mention a source for these the first time. Here's one of many: ======================================== Dynamic Materials Corporation 5405 Spine Road Boulder, CO 80301 Phone: 1.303.665.5700 1.800.821.2666 Fax: 1.303.604.1897 http://www.dynamicmaterials.com/home info@... ======================================== You can also check out a bunch of their brochures, downloadable as PDFs: http://www.dynamicmaterials.com/Divisions/Clad%20Metal%20Group/Technical%20Information/Data%20Sheets%20and%20Brochures -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19600|17655|2009-01-30 15:34:18|Doug|Re: aluminium pilot house|Hello Ben Yes I remember that and I prices some of it too. I don't remember the price but I do remember it was very expensive. Especially when compared to inner tube rubber, Sika and bolts. But it is cool stuff. Here is a video of how the make it. http://crazymotion.net/explosion-welding/wldl6fIDGQ5EjAy.html Best of Luck Doug Jackson www.SubmarineBoat.com| 19601|17655|2009-01-30 15:39:51|mark hamill|Re: aluminium pilot house|I have had good results bonding aluminum to galvanized steel with Home Depot Polyurethane caulking/adhesive and stainless bolts bedded under the heads and washers and the holes drilled slightly larger to allow the caulking to squeeze out. The tube claims 50 years lifespan. For the joint how about as well that black butyl strip used on windows which comes in various widths??| 19602|19602|2009-01-30 15:41:49|cokedrum|B.S. 26 Layout|Hello All Hoping to get a second opinion on the twin keel dimensions for the 26ft The side view of the print shows the keels are 1.75ft high and the front view show the keels extending 1.75ft from the hull. The last view seems more critical as it gives you the proper draft. This seems to indicate that the keels are welded flush to the hull. I believe the keels are suppose to fit into the hull with a few inches for the angles to tie into. This doesn't seem right to me which is the reason for my post. Is there another view Im missing? Do i just ad 2-3 inches onto the height of the keels? Ill be the first to admit tend to miss things. Thanks Jesse| 19603|17655|2009-01-30 18:27:54|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 08:34:16PM -0000, Doug wrote: > Hello Ben > > Yes I remember that and I prices some of it too. I don't remember the > price but I do remember it was very expensive. Especially when > compared to inner tube rubber, Sika and bolts. I just gave them a call and talked to their marine division sales guy about this exact problem (attaching an aluminum pilothouse to a steel deck). Based on my description (approximate size, etc.), he recommended their 3/4" product (3/8" 5000-series aluminum welded to 3/8" mild steel) in a 4" width; the quote he gave me (a very rough quote, which is what I asked for) was $123/foot for an order of 20 feet. Yikes. Maybe it would be cheaper to solder it with gold? :) > But it is cool stuff. Here is a video of how the make it. > http://crazymotion.net/explosion-welding/wldl6fIDGQ5EjAy.html Oh yeah. That, and friction stir welding, are just _wild_ concepts. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19604|19602|2009-01-30 19:08:30|Tom Mann|Re: B.S. 26 Layout|I havnt looked at the mesurments but what I would do is make them half sheet tall to start with 24" then go off the bottom length measurment with the same leading edge angle. That way you have plenty to work with, then trim the top off after they are installed at however high you want them in hull. Seems to me if you are putting tanks in center you would want them up a bit and if not the keels would be flush with inside of hull and 3" x 3" angle from center to chine across top of keels Tom On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:41 PM, cokedrum wrote: > Hello All > > Hoping to get a second opinion on the twin keel dimensions for the 26ft > > The side view of the print shows the keels are 1.75ft high and the > front view show the keels extending 1.75ft from the hull. The last > view seems more critical as it gives you the proper draft. This seems > to indicate that the keels are welded flush to the hull. > > I believe the keels are suppose to fit into the hull with a few > inches for the angles to tie into. > > This doesn't seem right to me which is the reason for my post. > Is there another view Im missing? Do i just ad 2-3 inches onto the > height of the keels? Ill be the first to admit tend to miss things. > > Thanks Jesse > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19605|17655|2009-01-30 19:47:51|Doug|Re: aluminium pilot house|I bet just an inch wide would do, but I need 75 ft which that would cost me $2000. I'm looking a diesel engines that cost less. :) --Doug > I just gave them a call and talked to their marine > division sales guy about this exact problem (attaching an aluminum > pilothouse to a steel deck). Based on my description (approximate size, > etc.), he recommended their 3/4" product (3/8" 5000-series aluminum > welded to 3/8" mild steel) in a 4" width; the quote he gave me (a very > rough quote, which is what I asked for) was $123/foot for an order of 20 > feet. | 19606|17655|2009-01-30 19:49:43|Tom Mann|Re: aluminium pilot house|I thought there was somthing to do with the carbon in the rubber that caused issues allso? Doug I think milk cows get treated a little better than pigs and in some cases me to. Tom On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Doug wrote: > Thanks Ian > > "Poultice Corrosion > > This form of corrosion can attack all metals, but aluminum is the most > highly susceptible metal found in most pleasure boats. When moisture > is held adjacent to something made of aluminum, and there is an > absence of a supply of air at the interface, a chemical reaction takes > place at the surface of the metal. The aluminum is transformed into an > aluminum hydroxide substance which looks like a thick, white, pasty > substance. It has no strength at all. Large pits can be eaten into the > material in a relatively short time period (months) and the result is > usually a complete compromise of the material. > > Poultice corrosion most commonly manifests itself in the damage of > aluminum fuel tanks. Up until very recently, boat manufacturers > typically stabilized fuel tanks with materials that were moisture > absorbent (like spray-in foams) or with supports where moisture could > be trapped between the support and the tank (like rubber placed > between the tank and the securing straps). As long as the areas stayed > perfectly dry there were no problems. But low in the boat where water > can accumulate and get splashed around, fuel tanks have been affected." > -- http://qualitymarineservices.net/other_corrosion.html > > That's the stuff that got Tom's aluminum cattle trailer. Tom, your > cows rode in style, we never gave our pigs such comforts. I do have a > great story about the trailer coming unhitched on day and the pigs > passing us on the highway at about 65 mph. :) > > So it's not the rubber, its getting moisture trapped in there. I doubt > it would do the steel side any favors either. So we stick the rubber > down with Sika and put the joint up off the deck out of standing > water. Any better ideas? > > --Doug Jackson > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ian and Jean Campbell" > wrote: > > > > Aluminum poltice corrosion? > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19607|19602|2009-01-31 00:19:52|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: B.S. 26 Layout|I believe I posed the same question to Brent some time back. He suggested to cut the sides from a single 4 X 8 plate (each side would be 24"), then bury the sides in the hull to the depth of the angle you use for reinforcing them (~2-1/2 or 3 niches). Don't weld them flush. Where are you building? Cheers Paul > Hello All > > Hoping to get a second opinion on the twin keel dimensions for the 26ft > > The side view of the print shows the keels are 1.75ft high and the > front view show the keels extending 1.75ft from the hull. The last > view seems more critical as it gives you the proper draft. This seems > to indicate that the keels are welded flush to the hull. > > I believe the keels are suppose to fit into the hull with a few > inches for the angles to tie into. > > This doesn't seem right to me which is the reason for my post. > Is there another view Im missing? Do i just ad 2-3 inches onto the > height of the keels? Ill be the first to admit tend to miss things. > > Thanks Jesse > > | 19608|19608|2009-01-31 00:44:36|dare2build|Thank you Ben|A couple of years ago I was assigned to lag a couple of very large vessels,the exterior was of very heavy steel 1" or better. When I came across an open access hatch I noticed that the interior was completely lined in SS, this had me puzzled as to how this was done. I was on night shift so none of the engineering staff was around to ask. The Boilermaker that was in charge of us told me that it was some kind of super glue and extreme pressure that bonded the two metals together, I had my doubts. Until now, Thank you for that link now I know how it was done. Fred| 19609|19608|2009-01-31 10:12:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Thank you Ben|On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 05:44:34AM -0000, dare2build wrote: > A couple of years ago I was assigned to lag a couple of very large vessels,the exterior was of > very heavy steel 1" or better. When I came across an open access hatch I noticed that the > interior was completely lined in SS, this had me puzzled as to how this was done. I was on > night shift so none of the engineering staff was around to ask. The Boilermaker that was in > charge of us told me that it was some kind of super glue and extreme pressure that bonded > the two metals together, I had my doubts. Until now, Thank you for that link now I know how > it was done. You're welcome, Fred! It's nice to know that I've added to someone's "knowledge pile". I've learned a lot of things from a lot of people along the way, and I always enjoy being able to pay that back. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19610|17655|2009-01-31 10:41:52|audeojude|Re: aluminium pilot house|I actually know a guy in the local sailing club that his company sells the equipment to do the friction welding of dissimilar metals. I asked him once what it would take to get some of it... more than my gross revenue for my entire working life at 41. Ouch!!!! very cool stuff though... 10 or 15 years from now you will probably be able to buy some cool welder based on the same principble for 1000 bucks. scott > > Oh yeah. That, and friction stir welding, are just _wild_ concepts. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19611|17655|2009-01-31 11:59:39|Doug|Re: aluminium pilot house|> I thought there was somthing to do with the carbon in the rubber that caused issues allso? Could be, but if Sika is used between the metal and rubber or other gasket material then I'd think it'd be safe. I think water really has to be present for long periods of time, like under your floor mats. I've never seen an aluminum truck fuel tank with this; Poultice corrosion under the rubber of the tie down straps, but apparently it's a big problem for boats with aluminum tanks down below were they constantly stay damp. --Doug J| 19612|19602|2009-01-31 12:00:07|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|B.S. 26 Layout|"The side view of the print shows the keels are 1.75ft high and the front view show the keels extending 1.75ft from the hull. The last view seems more critical as it gives you the proper draft. This seems to indicate that the keels are welded flush to the hull. I believe the keels are suppose to fit into the hull with a few inches for the angles to tie into. This doesn't seem right to me which is the reason for my post. Is there another view Im missing? Do i just ad 2-3 inches onto the height of the keels? Ill be the first to admit tend to miss things. " My plans show in end-on view the twin keels to be 1'10" from hull to bottom. On the other hand, the side view explicitly gives this dimension as 1'10-1/2". In either case, you definitely want the keels extending into the hull and welded directly to the transverse 3"x3"x1/4" angles; I would go so far as to weld webs into the keels and weld those to the transverse angles. Reason being that on the weather side when heeled, the 1200# of ballast in that keel is nearly horizontal and trying to fold the keel inwards, while on the lee side when heeled, that keel is providing all the resistance to leeward movement, and this tends to fold that keel inward too. The wind force driving you to leeward is usually greater than that driving you forward. If (when} you are struck broadside by a wave, the force on the leeward keel would be immensely greater (and would be greater than the force on a single midline keel, which in contrast to the bilge keel (vertical when heeled) is canted over, allowing the vessel to slide leeward more, I think, than the same size bilge keel). It seems best if those forces are not taken by the weld between the thin hull plate and the keel surface. Moreover, you are naturally going to have more intrusion of each keel into the hull amidships than at either keel end, because of the curvature of the hull. It would be an immense amount of futile, counterproductive work to cut off the top of the keel to match that curvature. I doubt that a small variation of the height of the keels from the plan specifications, whichever figure you choose, is going to matter. Given Brent's practicality, it's likely he intended that you use a half width of 4' plate. That's a little less than 24" after cutting and grinding, but you gain a little (3/16" to 1/4") when welding the keel sides to the keel bottom plates. You can't have more than 2-3/4" intrusion in to the hull anyway without coming up against the horizontal parts of the transverse angles. But if you're really concerned about having as much of the keel height as possible outside the hull, using webs extending from the transverse angles into the keels will allow you the maximum height along with the maximum strength.| 19613|19613|2009-01-31 12:16:11|Aaron|Diesel Heaters|All Even though I have built a wood stove for my boat I interested in what size diesel heaters people use that they are happy with or that they think are to big or to small. Anyone with propane can through in there op also. Last year the water temp where I play was only up to 51 deg F. Thanks Aaron in Alaska| 19614|19613|2009-01-31 13:13:56|Carl Anderson|Re: Diesel Heaters|Aaron, We have put in a SIGMAR 120 that seems to be fine for a 36. Be sure to gravity feed it & you will have a great setup. Carl sv-mom.com Aaron wrote: > > > All > > Even though I have built a wood stove for my boat I interested in what > size diesel heaters people use that they are happy with or that they > think are to big or to small. Anyone with propane can through in there > op also. > Last year the water temp where I play was only up to 51 deg F. > Thanks > Aaron in Alaska > > | 19615|19613|2009-01-31 14:07:48|Paul Wilson|Re: Diesel Heaters|I have a Phoenix Cyclos heater in my 36. It is not made anymore but it has a 16,000 BTU rating. I was relatively comfortable living on board in Vancouver when it was -10C (14F). Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 6:16 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel Heaters All Even though I have built a wood stove for my boat I interested in what size diesel heaters people use that they are happy with or that they think are to big or to small. Anyone with propane can through in there op also. Last year the water temp where I play was only up to 51 deg F. Thanks Aaron in Alaska [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19616|19613|2009-01-31 15:45:23|Aaron Williams|Re: Diesel Heaters|Carl  I put the wood stove in the boat so I could work inside, but I found that I spend more time adding wood so I have been thinking a temparary diesel heater might be cheeper while in the winter construction mode. I am sure when I get some insulation in it won't take very much to get it warm and keep it that way. When I looked at your site and saw you had a Force 10, I was thinking propane. Now I see that Force 10bought out Sigmar Thanks Aaron --- On Sat, 1/31/09, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel Heaters To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 9:13 AM Aaron, We have put in a SIGMAR 120 that seems to be fine for a 36. Be sure to gravity feed it & you will have a great setup. Carl sv-mom.com Aaron wrote: > > > All > > Even though I have built a wood stove for my boat I interested in what > size diesel heaters people use that they are happy with or that they > think are to big or to small. Anyone with propane can through in there > op also. > Last year the water temp where I play was only up to 51 deg F. > Thanks > Aaron in Alaska > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19617|19613|2009-01-31 15:48:34|Aaron Williams|Re: Diesel Heaters|  I was looking at a used Dickinson Antartic --- On Sat, 1/31/09, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Diesel Heaters To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 10:07 AM I have a Phoenix Cyclos heater in my 36. It is not made anymore but it has a 16,000 BTU rating. I was relatively comfortable living on board in Vancouver when it was -10C (14F). Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Aaron Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 6:16 AM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel Heaters All Even though I have built a wood stove for my boat I interested in what size diesel heaters people use that they are happy with or that they think are to big or to small. Anyone with propane can through in there op also. Last year the water temp where I play was only up to 51 deg F. Thanks Aaron in Alaska [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19618|19483|2009-01-31 16:22:49|Tom Mann|Re: Building with galvanized|Paul It is confusing at times, I have heard the same theory except the other way with no zinc primer and scratched rusting causes the paint to lift. I guess the safest bet is dont get it scratched LOL Tom On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > I once heard the theory from a paint rep that if there is any scratch or > pit > the zinc leaches out as it tries to protect the metal and lifts the paint. > He said you are better off without zinc coatings underwater. It could > possibly be a reaction with the copper anti-fouling as well if there is not > enough of a barrier coat between the two. I am not sure what to make of > it, > there have been many boats made with zinc primer that haven't had any > problems, so it is just a theory. Maybe galvanizing, with its heavier zinc > coating, is more of a problem. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19619|19613|2009-01-31 17:07:29|Paul Wilson|Re: Diesel Heaters|My friends used one of those living onboard their 40 footer. They were quite happy with it. Cheers, Paul I was looking at a used Dickinson Antartic --- On Sat, 1/31/09, Paul Wilson > wrote: From: Paul Wilson > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Diesel Heaters To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 10:07 AM I have a Phoenix Cyclos heater in my 36. It is not made anymore but it has a 16,000 BTU rating. I was relatively comfortable living on board in Vancouver when it was -10C (14F). Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Aaron Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 6:16 AM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel Heaters All Even though I have built a wood stove for my boat I interested in what size diesel heaters people use that they are happy with or that they think are to big or to small. Anyone with propane can through in there op also. Last year the water temp where I play was only up to 51 deg F. Thanks Aaron in Alaska [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19620|17655|2009-01-31 17:51:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 03:41:44PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > I actually know a guy in the local sailing club that his company sells > the equipment to do the friction welding of dissimilar metals. I asked > him once what it would take to get some of it... more than my gross > revenue for my entire working life at 41. Ouch!!!! Heck, just run an aluminum engine without any oil for a few minutes. When you hear screeching noises followed by silence, you've achieved a friction weld. :))) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19621|19621|2009-01-31 20:28:09|Tom|Coal Tar Epoxy, Zinc, Rust proof/inhibiting primers, more informatio|"Lot's, of stuff" out there. Use Google and other search engines. Some of these epoxies are claiming a 30% expansion http://www.epoxyproducts.com/coaltar.html https://www.epoxy.com/216.htm http://www2.sherwin-williams.com/im/wastewater/targuardcoal.asp?nav=Products http://www.kpg-industrial.com/products/categories/industrial_coatings/epoxy_topcoats/high_build_coal_tar_epoxy/ http://www.madewell.com/mainstay-composite-liner/product-overviews/madewell-1103-epoxy-coal-tar.html ZINC - GALVANIZING, SALT WATER CORROSION http://www.epoxyproducts.com/zinc.html http://coatingepoxy.com/ http://www.zrcworldwide.com/?utm_source=MSN&utm_medium=CPC&utm_term=cold%2Bgalvanizing%2C%2Bcold%2Bgalvanizing%2Bcompound%2C%2Bgalvanizing%2Brepair%2C%2Bhot%2Bdip%2Bgalvanizing%2C%2Bzinc%2Bprimer%2C%2Bzinc%2Brich%2Bprimer%2C%2Bgalvanizing http://coatingepoxy.com/Products/Products.asp?ProductID=80 RUST PROOF, RUST INHIBITING PRIMERS http://www.ipaint.us/rustprimers.html http://www.hytechsales.com/prod18.html http://www.seichemical.com/products/CPT-298.html http://www.rustbullet.com/?source=msn| 19622|19602|2009-01-31 20:44:03|cokedrum|Re: B.S. 26 Layout|Thanks for the input everyone... I think i will go with 24" half a sheet and go from there. Paul Im building in Edmonton, A.B. I convinced my boss to let me build at work, pretty sweet deal as I work for a rather large boilermaker outfit. Having access to all sorts of useful equipment I figure ill be cheating a little on this project. But its either build at work or not build at all, building sites in Edmonton are few and far between. Im hoping to start the keels and the skeg this week. So far Ive cut the keel shoes, and salvaged the 1/2" stainless for the bow roller and sprocket for the anchor winch. Long way to go yet! Jesse| 19623|17655|2009-02-01 09:00:57|audeojude|Re: aluminium pilot house|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 03:41:44PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > > I actually know a guy in the local sailing club that his company sells > > the equipment to do the friction welding of dissimilar metals. I asked > > him once what it would take to get some of it... more than my gross > > revenue for my entire working life at 41. Ouch!!!! > > Heck, just run an aluminum engine without any oil for a few minutes. > When you hear screeching noises followed by silence, you've achieved a > friction weld. :))) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Rofl... yep... just the weld I always wanted to do to. scott| 19624|17655|2009-02-02 09:00:39|Tom Mann|Re: aluminium pilot house|That is cool, I had heard of explosion welding before but didnt relize they actualy blow it up like that to do it. I think I am missing somthing, maybee just been welding to long in the hot sun. From what I know and read a studied about dissimular metals and eletrolices, keeping them isolated from each other is the best bet. Does this explosion welding of aluminum to steel some how cancel the disimular metals problem? I can see how the strips would be easyer in contruction but other than that ? Tom On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Doug wrote: > Hello Ben > > Yes I remember that and I prices some of it too. I don't remember the > price but I do remember it was very expensive. Especially when > compared to inner tube rubber, Sika and bolts. > > But it is cool stuff. Here is a video of how the make it. > http://crazymotion.net/explosion-welding/wldl6fIDGQ5EjAy.html > > Best of Luck > Doug Jackson > www.SubmarineBoat.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19625|17655|2009-02-02 10:12:24|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminium pilot house|On Mon, Feb 02, 2009 at 06:00:37AM -0800, Tom Mann wrote: > That is cool, I had heard of explosion welding before but didnt relize they > actualy blow it up like that to do it. Isn't that fun to watch? :) I got to play with explosives quite a bit when I was in the Army, and got to learn about shaped charges, pressure fronts, and so on. That was an awesome demo of what happens during the explosion. Some of those commercial explosives propagate at almost 30,000fps - and slapping those two plates together from an inch apart has got to be about as loud as the explosion itself. > I think I am missing somthing, maybee just been welding to long in the hot > sun. From what I know and read a studied about dissimular metals and > eletrolices, keeping them isolated from each other is the best bet. Does > this explosion welding of aluminum to steel some how cancel the disimular > metals problem? It's not really the dissimilar metals that are the problem; it's the electrochemical interface between them. Take copper and aluminum and stick them in salt water, and you can almost watch the latter cooking off. When they're explosively welded, however, there's no space for any mediating agent (like water or even air), no interface - and so very little or no reaction. According to the many studies you can find on the Net (search for "transition joint" and have your PDF reader ready), the place where the metals join is almost completely passive. So, yes, you might say that explosive welding cancels that problem. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19626|17655|2009-02-02 12:26:25|Doug|Re: aluminium pilot house|Thanks for the advice Carl. I called Ultra Safety Systems who makes TefGel; www.tefgel.com. To use TefGel, you would dry fit the pilot house with a gasket made from butyl rubber or strips of fiberglass board. Then paint the steel, put the gasket and pilot house back in place and coat the inside of the hole, the bolt and nut threads as well as the washers with TefGel and tork it down. A fiberglass gasket will add a little more stiffness to the structure that rubber but they did not recommend any other sealer in the joint although it would not do any harm and would work to hold the gasket in place as stop leaks between the joints in the gasket. They recommended G-10 or FR4 epoxy fiberglass. A 1/16" thick, 12 x 48 inch sheet is under $30. TefGel is $22 for 2 ounces. And like the explosive welded interface you will also get a pilot house that will conduct a lighting strike on into the hull. I can see where it would be useful for all the other stuff that gets bolted on as well. Best of Luck Doug Jackson www.SubmarineBoat.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I would use something like TefGel to isolate the aluminum and stainless. > The aluminum will turn to white powder without any isolation from the > stainless. > This is what I used to isolate the stainless from the aluminum on my mast. > Check out: > > http://www.tefgel.com/ > > > Carl > sv-mom.com > | 19627|17655|2009-02-02 14:54:48|mauro gonzaga|Re: aluminium pilot house|Explosion welding is used to make clad plates. To a plate, usually in carbon steel which serves to sustain the stress, another plate, usually much thinner is bonded by the extreme pressure resulting from an explosion. This plate may be in material which could also be fusion welded (e.g. stainless steel to carbon steel) or material which could not be fusion welded like titanium on carbon steel. Since these plates are usually applied with the noble side in contact with the corrosive medium there is no problem of electrolitic corrosion. The same is with aluminum on steel, but in this case this "wafer" is used to transit from steel portion of the hull to aluminium, thus permitting to fusion weld alu to alu and steel to steel. The problem of electrolitic corrosion is not solved, therefore the dissimilar joint shall not be underwater and also above the water it shall be well painted. The same result can be obtained by bolting an aluminium plate to the steel and welding on that plate, or, bolt the aluminium pilot house on the steel deck, better if an insulation compound (plastic gasket) is placed in between. The system as described by our friends of the web is used for militar and passenger ships, but I would not use on a yacht superstructure. mauro  --- On Mon, 2/2/09, Tom Mann wrote: From: Tom Mann Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 3:00 PM That is cool, I had heard of explosion welding before but didnt relize they actualy blow it up like that to do it. I think I am missing somthing, maybee just been welding to long in the hot sun. From what I know and read a studied about dissimular metals and eletrolices, keeping them isolated from each other is the best bet. Does this explosion welding of aluminum to steel some how cancel the disimular metals problem? I can see how the strips would be easyer in contruction but other than that ? Tom On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Doug wrote: > Hello Ben > > Yes I remember that and I prices some of it too. I don't remember the > price but I do remember it was very expensive. Especially when > compared to inner tube rubber, Sika and bolts. > > But it is cool stuff. Here is a video of how the make it. > http://crazymotion. net/explosion- welding/wldl6fID GQ5EjAy.html > > Best of Luck > Doug Jackson > www.SubmarineBoat. com > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19628|19628|2009-02-03 15:47:04|eulachon@ymail.com|Mild surface rust beginning in areas of bilge...|Hi all, My boat was home-built a decade ago, by a steel fabricator. He was very scrupulous about shot-blasting and epoxying the inside and outside of the hull and didn't skimp out on high quality coatings. However it seems he neglected to leave drainage (limber) holes where the stringers meet the framing, and pooling of moisture in those places has begun to cause paint failure and surface rust in a couple of spots. D'oh! Now I am faced with task of establishing just how many places this may be beginning. Hopefully the little bit I saw under the head is all there is, but who knows- I'll have to pull up parts of the sole, get under the Vee-berth, etc, etc. Questions: As long as the the boat is in water, the inside of the hull will be wet (unless I'm missing something). So is there any way to treat, or at least arrest the corrosion before I haul the boat, or must I wait 5 or 6 months till bottom painting time to have a dry bilge to clean up? It seems I should be looking at where these moisture collecting spots are and neutralizing them by drilling limber holes for their drainage, but the last thing I want to do is compromise the paint with every hole I drill, and start a rust farm in my bilge! How would I prevent this? Cheers!| 19629|19501|2009-02-03 20:05:14|Aaron|Mast and Boom|Anyone with an Idea? My friend finely sent me some pictures of the boom I mentioned before. It has a section of extra heavy duty sail track that allows about 20" of verticle adjustment. Is the a specific name for that type boom? I will post some pictures also Aaron| 19630|19501|2009-02-03 20:33:49|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: Mast and Boom|Yes, old fashioned! But in its defense being able to lower the boom allows for tightening the sail when its necessary to flatten the sail perhaps to travel to windward in a blow. BUT the same can be accomplished with less strain on the mast by tightening a line through a cringle at the foot of the luff. Many modern booms are made without a track, in the belief that a loose footed main sets well. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19631|19501|2009-02-03 22:08:30|Aaron Williams|Re: Mast and Boom|The Rigg came off of a 20+year old cement boat that was scuttled 2 years ago. --- On Tue, 2/3/09, Ian and Jean Campbell wrote: From: Ian and Jean Campbell Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast and Boom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 4:26 PM Yes, old fashioned! But in its defense being able to lower the boom allows for tightening the sail when its necessary to flatten the sail perhaps to travel to windward in a blow. BUT the same can be accomplished with less strain on the mast by tightening a line through a cringle at the foot of the luff. Many modern booms are made without a track, in the belief that a loose footed main sets well. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19632|19632|2009-02-03 22:47:28|brentswain38|Built in dehumidifier|Several aquaintances have had good luck with electric dehumidifiers . One friend with a 45 footer pulled 5 gallons of water out of the air in the first week. They operate by blowing air over several cold plates , and the water condensing on the plates drips down into a container, which you empty at the end of the day. I have often thought if I lived aboard alongside a dock with shore power, I'd consider owning one. Then it dawned on me" I probably do own one." Before insulating the underside of my floor boards I used to get a lot of condensation in the bilges, water that was drawn from the air in the boat. If one were to run a small fan drawing air from the bilge near the heater,and a hole made at the opposite end to let air in, then most moisture in the air would condense out onto the hull plate and the air would emerge from the other end much drier. This would also be much colder air, so one would have to direct it at a heater to warm it, before it was allowed to circulate around the cabin. The resulting water would simply be pumped overboard , in effect distilled water. Sounds reasonable. Any comments? Brent| 19633|19501|2009-02-03 22:53:45|brentswain38|Re: Mast and Boom|I tried that on my first boat. Big mistake. To hoist sail you had to lift both the weight of the sail and the boom. Hard to lift both and get it tight. When you reefed the main, it was so far around the contraption you had to pull out all slides below the track each time, then reinsert them when you shook the reef out. Having the track end an inch above the lowest point of the boom is light years easier. Big screwup. Don't do it. Brent Brent. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > Anyone with an Idea? > > My friend finely sent me some pictures of the boom I mentioned before. > It has a section of extra heavy duty sail track that allows about 20" > of verticle adjustment. > Is the a specific name for that type boom? > I will post some pictures also > Aaron > | 19634|19602|2009-02-03 22:58:37|brentswain38|Re: B.S. 26 Layout|Don' cut your keels flush with the inside of the hull. You need to extend the keel sides 3 inches inside the hull so you can slot the webs into them and get enough strength in the connection. Yes cutting the 4X8 in half longitudinally lets you get both keels out of a single 4X8 sheet Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > I havnt looked at the mesurments but what I would do is make them half > sheet tall to start with 24" then go off the bottom length measurment with > the same leading edge angle. That way you have plenty to work with, then > trim the top off after they are installed at however high you want them in > hull. Seems to me if you are putting tanks in center you would want them up > a bit and if not the keels would be flush with inside of hull and 3" x 3" > angle from center to chine across top of keels > Tom > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:41 PM, cokedrum wrote: > > > Hello All > > > > Hoping to get a second opinion on the twin keel dimensions for the 26ft > > > > The side view of the print shows the keels are 1.75ft high and the > > front view show the keels extending 1.75ft from the hull. The last > > view seems more critical as it gives you the proper draft. This seems > > to indicate that the keels are welded flush to the hull. > > > > I believe the keels are suppose to fit into the hull with a few > > inches for the angles to tie into. > > > > This doesn't seem right to me which is the reason for my post. > > Is there another view Im missing? Do i just ad 2-3 inches onto the > > height of the keels? Ill be the first to admit tend to miss things. > > > > Thanks Jesse > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19635|17655|2009-02-03 23:10:41|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house|While it may cancel the problem at the interface, I'd be more worried about surfaces right next to the interface. I sailed from BC to New Zealand with a couple of steel outboard motor tanks in the cockpit, One had all steel fittings and the other had a copper pipe soldered in. The one with the copper was flaking thick rust , but the one with all steel fittings had only slight surface rust. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 02, 2009 at 06:00:37AM -0800, Tom Mann wrote: > > That is cool, I had heard of explosion welding before but didnt relize they > > actualy blow it up like that to do it. > > Isn't that fun to watch? :) I got to play with explosives quite a bit > when I was in the Army, and got to learn about shaped charges, pressure > fronts, and so on. That was an awesome demo of what happens during the > explosion. Some of those commercial explosives propagate at almost > 30,000fps - and slapping those two plates together from an inch apart > has got to be about as loud as the explosion itself. > > > I think I am missing somthing, maybee just been welding to long in the hot > > sun. From what I know and read a studied about dissimular metals and > > eletrolices, keeping them isolated from each other is the best bet. Does > > this explosion welding of aluminum to steel some how cancel the disimular > > metals problem? > > It's not really the dissimilar metals that are the problem; it's the > electrochemical interface between them. Take copper and aluminum and > stick them in salt water, and you can almost watch the latter cooking > off. When they're explosively welded, however, there's no space for any > mediating agent (like water or even air), no interface - and so very > little or no reaction. According to the many studies you can find on the > Net (search for "transition joint" and have your PDF reader ready), the > place where the metals join is almost completely passive. > > So, yes, you might say that explosive welding cancels that problem. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19636|19628|2009-02-03 23:14:48|brentswain38|Re: Mild surface rust beginning in areas of bilge...|A few handfuls of lime or cement in the bilges turns bilge water alkali which stops corrosion dead, Corrosion is an acid reaction. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "eulachon@..." wrote: > > Hi all, > > My boat was home-built a decade ago, by a steel fabricator. He was > very scrupulous about shot-blasting and epoxying the inside and > outside of the hull and didn't skimp out on high quality coatings. > However it seems he neglected to leave drainage (limber) holes where > the stringers meet the framing, and pooling of moisture in those > places has begun to cause paint failure and surface rust in a couple > of spots. > > D'oh! > > Now I am faced with task of establishing just how many places this may > be beginning. Hopefully the little bit I saw under the head is all > there is, but who knows- I'll have to pull up parts of the sole, get > under the Vee-berth, etc, etc. > > Questions: > > As long as the the boat is in water, the inside of the hull will be > wet (unless I'm missing something). So is there any way to treat, or > at least arrest the corrosion before I haul the boat, or must I wait 5 > or 6 months till bottom painting time to have a dry bilge to clean up? > > > > It seems I should be looking at where these moisture collecting spots > are and neutralizing them by drilling limber holes for their drainage, > but the last thing I want to do is compromise the paint with every > hole I drill, and start a rust farm in my bilge! How would I prevent > this? > > Cheers! > | 19637|19602|2009-02-04 03:24:43|cokedrum|Re: B.S. 26 Layout|Don' cut your keels flush with the inside of the hull. You need to extend the keel sides 3 inches inside the hull so you can slot the webs into them and get enough strength in the connection. Yes cutting the 4X8 in half longitudinally lets you get both keels out of a single 4X8 sheet Brent Thanks Brent. I cut the plate for my skeg today and Am now trying to figure out what size spacers (and where abouts to put them) are need to get the proper shape. Any advice would be appreciated, Thanks Jesse| 19639|19602|2009-02-04 07:40:23|Tom Mann|Re: B.S. 26 Layout|Ok Brent makes sense I think the plan needs modification, the station frame drawing shows keel flush with hull plating and 3"x3" angle across the top with note on side stating 3" x 3" x 1/4" angle 3 per side across keels. Being a welder and working from plans a lot I would have a tendancy to build to what the plan shows ? IMHO Tom On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 7:58 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Don' cut your keels flush with the inside of the hull. You need to extend > the keel sides 3 > inches inside the hull so you can slot the webs into them and get enough > strength in the > connection. > Yes cutting the 4X8 in half longitudinally lets you get both keels out of > a single 4X8 sheet > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > I havnt looked at the mesurments but what I would do is make them half > > sheet tall to start with 24" then go off the bottom length measurment > with > > the same leading edge angle. That way you have plenty to work with, then > > trim the top off after they are installed at however high you want them > in > > hull. Seems to me if you are putting tanks in center you would want them > up > > a bit and if not the keels would be flush with inside of hull and 3" x 3" > > angle from center to chine across top of keels > > Tom > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19640|19640|2009-02-04 10:13:29|SHANE ROTHWELL|Built in Dehumidifier|Brent, I'm doing basically the same thing in the greenhouse I'm building. dug a hole 12'deep that's about 10' x 10' & coiled 300' of 1/2" pvc pipe in it. pumping water through it will bring the water down to 8 degees C. & just run a fan over a heat exchanger to condence out the h2o as long as you have the temp diff you will be able to condense out the water. & of course the air flow to increase effiency. So as long as there are no issues with water in the bilge - maybe the insulation getting wet?- then it sounds like you nailed it. Sounds a very simple, cool solution. Shane Built in dehumidifier Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Tue Feb 3, 2009 7:47 pm (PST) Several aquaintances have had good luck with electric dehumidifiers . One friend with a 45 footer pulled 5 gallons of water out of the air in the first week. They operate by blowing air over several cold plates , and the water condensing on the plates drips down into a container, which you empty at the end of the day. I have often thought if I lived aboard alongside a dock with shore power, I'd consider owning one. Then it dawned on me" I probably do own one." Before insulating the underside of my floor boards I used to get a lot of condensation in the bilges, water that was drawn from the air in the boat. If one were to run a small fan drawing air from the bilge near the heater,and a hole made at the opposite end to let air in, then most moisture in the air would condense out onto the hull plate and the air would emerge from the other end much drier. This would also be much colder air, so one would have to direct it at a heater to warm it, before it was allowed to circulate around the cabin. The resulting water would simply be pumped overboard , in effect distilled water. Sounds reasonable. Any comments? Brent Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (1) __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 19641|19628|2009-02-04 10:36:26|will jones|Re: Mild surface rust beginning in areas of bilge...|Corrosion is an electrochemical rxn that occurs both under acidic and basic conditions.  The hydrogen rxn occurs under acidic conditions and an oxygen reaction occurs under basic conditions.  Both have a close emf (acidic hydrogen is +1.2 and basic oxygen is +0.4, iron is at -0.4 and zinc is -0.7).  Adding a little and just a little lime or cement probably gets you around a pH of 8 which is close enough to neutral to greatly slow down corrosion, however corrosion is still taking place, just much more slowly.   Pitting corrosion will probably be the biggest problem in the bilge.  Does the corrosion seem worse at the top of the average water level of the bilge?  Is the corrosion sort hilly.  That is, are there little bumps of corrosion? Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Tue, 2/3/09, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mild surface rust beginning in areas of bilge... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 11:14 PM A few handfuls of lime or cement in the bilges turns bilge water alkali which stops corrosion dead, Corrosion is an acid reaction. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "eulachon@.. ." wrote: > > Hi all, > > My boat was home-built a decade ago, by a steel fabricator. He was > very scrupulous about shot-blasting and epoxying the inside and > outside of the hull and didn't skimp out on high quality coatings. > However it seems he neglected to leave drainage (limber) holes where > the stringers meet the framing, and pooling of moisture in those > places has begun to cause paint failure and surface rust in a couple > of spots. > > D'oh! > > Now I am faced with task of establishing just how many places this may > be beginning. Hopefully the little bit I saw under the head is all > there is, but who knows- I'll have to pull up parts of the sole, get > under the Vee-berth, etc, etc. > > Questions: > > As long as the the boat is in water, the inside of the hull will be > wet (unless I'm missing something). So is there any way to treat, or > at least arrest the corrosion before I haul the boat, or must I wait 5 > or 6 months till bottom painting time to have a dry bilge to clean up? > > > > It seems I should be looking at where these moisture collecting spots > are and neutralizing them by drilling limber holes for their drainage, > but the last thing I want to do is compromise the paint with every > hole I drill, and start a rust farm in my bilge! How would I prevent > this? > > Cheers! > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19642|22|2009-02-05 21:06:12|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./239CKSAIL.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Schooner rig adapted for TYD#229 and #239. Stayed or Free Standing rig. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./239CKSAIL.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 19643|10783|2009-02-05 23:55:16|brentswain38|Watermaker|The last time I fired up the watermaker it was leaking a bunch of air into the intake side , and running rough. I found out that the rubber seal in the 5 micron pre filtre was set up for tap pressure , and as it was on the suction side should be set up for suction (as is our present prime minister) I turned the rubber seal around so it would expand when under suction. I managed to fit a sheetrubber washer between the clear side of the filtre housing and the top, as back up, Then it didn't leak a drop of air,and thus ran very smoothly ,without the pressure fluctuations. I may build a stainless version of the filtre housing in the future. Brent| 19644|19640|2009-02-05 23:57:39|brentswain38|Re: Built in Dehumidifier|Thanks There should never be insulation in the bottom of a bilge , just on the bottom of the floorboards. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Brent, > > I'm doing basically the same thing in the greenhouse I'm building. dug a hole 12'deep that's about 10' x 10' & coiled 300' of 1/2" pvc pipe in it. pumping water through it will bring the water down to 8 degees C. & just run a fan over a heat exchanger to condence out the h2o > > as long as you have the temp diff you will be able to condense out the water. & of course the air flow to increase effiency. So as long as there are no issues with water in the bilge - maybe the insulation getting wet?- then it sounds like you nailed it. > > Sounds a very simple, cool solution. > > Shane > > > > > Built in dehumidifier > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 > Tue Feb 3, 2009 7:47 pm (PST) > Several aquaintances have had good luck with electric dehumidifiers . One friend with a 45 > footer pulled 5 gallons of water out of the air in the first week. They operate by blowing air > over several cold plates , and the water condensing on the plates drips down into a > container, which you empty at the end of the day. I have often thought if I lived aboard > alongside a dock with shore power, I'd consider owning one. Then it dawned on me" I > probably do own one." Before insulating the underside of my floor boards I used to get a lot > of condensation in the bilges, water that was drawn from the air in the boat. If one were to > run a small fan drawing air from the bilge near the heater,and a hole made at the opposite > end to let air in, then most moisture in the air would condense out onto the hull plate and > the air would emerge from the other end much drier. This would also be much colder air, so > one would have to direct it at a heater to warm it, before it was allowed to circulate around > the cabin. The resulting water would simply be pumped overboard , in effect distilled water. > Sounds reasonable. Any comments? > Brent > > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic (1) > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > | 19645|19602|2009-02-06 00:02:02|brentswain38|Re: B.S. 26 Layout|I find one spacer in the top above the stern tube and one in the bottom about six inches up from the bottom is all you need . Dodging the final position of the stern tube and aperture is tricky, but after the skeg is on you don't need the top one anymore and it is easy to cut out. Don't put the bottom on until you have done all the work on the aperature stern tube, etc, so all the slag can fall out first. Brent Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cokedrum" wrote: > > Don' cut your keels flush with the inside of the hull. You need to > extend the > keel sides 3 > inches inside the hull so you can slot the webs into them and get enough > strength in the > connection. > Yes cutting the 4X8 in half longitudinally lets you get both keels out > of a > single 4X8 sheet > Brent > > > Thanks Brent. > > I cut the plate for my skeg today and Am now trying to figure out > what size spacers (and where abouts to put them) are need to get the > proper shape. > > Any advice would be appreciated, > > Thanks > Jesse > | 19646|10783|2009-02-06 00:46:31|Aaron Williams|Re: Watermaker|Brent is your Watermaker like the one in your book or did you make some improvements. I was talking to a fellow the other day as he was making an adjustment on or home water softener, He has a osmosis water filter system that he was going to test to see if it would work on his boat, it works on 75lbs water pressure, With the weather here just coming up from -20 deg F for the last 2 weeks it may be awhile before he get to try it. 4" of new snow and no ash yet. I can almost see the volcano from my back door. Aaron --- On Thu, 2/5/09, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Watermaker To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 7:55 PM The last time I fired up the watermaker it was leaking a bunch of air into the intake side , and running rough. I found out that the rubber seal in the 5 micron pre filtre was set up for tap pressure , and as it was on the suction side should be set up for suction (as is our present prime minister) I turned the rubber seal around so it would expand when under suction. I managed to fit a sheetrubber washer between the clear side of the filtre housing and the top, as back up, Then it didn't leak a drop of air,and thus ran very smoothly ,without the pressure fluctuations. I may build a stainless version of the filtre housing in the future. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19647|10783|2009-02-06 10:10:15|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Watermaker|Brent, Good work with diagnosing the problem & shifting the washer around. Also, your right, But Harper does it on his knees! Can you come up with a simple effective fix for the suction unit on knees? ........Please Shane Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Thu Feb 5, 2009 8:55 pm (PST) The last time I fired up the watermaker it was leaking a bunch of air into the intake side , and running rough. I found out that the rubber seal in the 5 micron pre filtre was set up for tap pressure , and as it was on the suction side should be set up for suction (as is our present prime minister) I turned the rubber seal around so it would expand when under suction. I managed to fit a sheetrubber washer between the clear side of the filtre housing and the top, as back up, Then it didn't leak a drop of air,and thus ran very smoothly ,without the pressure fluctuations. I may build a stainless version of the filtre housing in the future. Brent __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca| 19648|10783|2009-02-06 21:42:08|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Watermaker|Aaron, I happen to work for a company where I design and build RO units for waste water. A little bigger than the boat units, usually 10,000 gallons a day or bigger! The key factor with reverse osmosis is that you must overcome the natural osmotic pressure to force water through the membrane, and that is a function of the concentration of Total Dissolved Solids in the water. The low pressure RO unit you are talking about will only work when the TDS is very low, like you'd find in the tap water you would already drink. It will remove very low levels of impurities. In the case of sea water the TDS is very high so it takes 800 psi or more to push the water through the membrane. If you are in area with very high salinity it will take even more. An interesting phenomenon drove me crazy for a while. When you shut down an RO regular osmosis happens and pushes high pressure back towards the pump. In clean water RO the effect is not so big. But for waste water we aren't trying to squeeze clean water out, we are trying to drive the concentration of the dirty water way up. So when we shut off a unit with a 1200 psi 60 hp pump, all of a sudden it is like we have another 60 hp pump starting up and driving the water back at us! This was blowing the flanges right off the large plastic valves in the feed system to the pump. So I had to dissipate all the osmotic pressure before closing any valves. Surprisingly this takes nearly 2 full MINUTES! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:46 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Watermaker Brent is your Watermaker like the one in your book or did you make some improvements. I was talking to a fellow the other day as he was making an adjustment on or home water softener, He has a osmosis water filter system that he was going to test to see if it would work on his boat, it works on 75lbs water pressure, With the weather here just coming up from -20 deg F for the last 2 weeks it may be awhile before he get to try it. 4" of new snow and no ash yet. I can almost see the volcano from my back door. Aaron --- On Thu, 2/5/09, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Watermaker To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 7:55 PM The last time I fired up the watermaker it was leaking a bunch of air into the intake side , and running rough. I found out that the rubber seal in the 5 micron pre filtre was set up for tap pressure , and as it was on the suction side should be set up for suction (as is our present prime minister) I turned the rubber seal around so it would expand when under suction. I managed to fit a sheetrubber washer between the clear side of the filtre housing and the top, as back up, Then it didn't leak a drop of air,and thus ran very smoothly ,without the pressure fluctuations. I may build a stainless version of the filtre housing in the future. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19649|10783|2009-02-06 21:53:10|Aaron Williams|Re: Watermaker|Yhanks Gary That was what my understanding has been about the total disolved solids. I had my doubts about this system. Maybe it would be great if you had bad water in you tanks? http://www.kinetico.com/KineticoSystems/DrinkingWaterSystems.aspx   Aaron   --- On Fri, 2/6/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Watermaker To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 5:35 PM Aaron, I happen to work for a company where I design and build RO units for waste water. A little bigger than the boat units, usually 10,000 gallons a day or bigger! The key factor with reverse osmosis is that you must overcome the natural osmotic pressure to force water through the membrane, and that is a function of the concentration of Total Dissolved Solids in the water. The low pressure RO unit you are talking about will only work when the TDS is very low, like you'd find in the tap water you would already drink. It will remove very low levels of impurities. In the case of sea water the TDS is very high so it takes 800 psi or more to push the water through the membrane. If you are in area with very high salinity it will take even more. An interesting phenomenon drove me crazy for a while. When you shut down an RO regular osmosis happens and pushes high pressure back towards the pump. In clean water RO the effect is not so big. But for waste water we aren't trying to squeeze clean water out, we are trying to drive the concentration of the dirty water way up. So when we shut off a unit with a 1200 psi 60 hp pump, all of a sudden it is like we have another 60 hp pump starting up and driving the water back at us! This was blowing the flanges right off the large plastic valves in the feed system to the pump. So I had to dissipate all the osmotic pressure before closing any valves. Surprisingly this takes nearly 2 full MINUTES! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:46 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Watermaker Brent is your Watermaker like the one in your book or did you make some improvements. I was talking to a fellow the other day as he was making an adjustment on or home water softener, He has a osmosis water filter system that he was going to test to see if it would work on his boat, it works on 75lbs water pressure, With the weather here just coming up from -20 deg F for the last 2 weeks it may be awhile before he get to try it. 4" of new snow and no ash yet. I can almost see the volcano from my back door. Aaron --- On Thu, 2/5/09, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Watermaker To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 7:55 PM The last time I fired up the watermaker it was leaking a bunch of air into the intake side , and running rough. I found out that the rubber seal in the 5 micron pre filtre was set up for tap pressure , and as it was on the suction side should be set up for suction (as is our present prime minister) I turned the rubber seal around so it would expand when under suction. I managed to fit a sheetrubber washer between the clear side of the filtre housing and the top, as back up, Then it didn't leak a drop of air,and thus ran very smoothly ,without the pressure fluctuations. I may build a stainless version of the filtre housing in the future. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19650|19650|2009-02-07 13:45:16|James Pronk|Working with stainless steel|I was wondering if there are things I should know about stainless steel before I start building things for my boat. I was wondering about bending 1/2" rods for the wind vain, do I need to heat it up to a dull red before or just cold bend it? I know that 316 gets brittle from cold bending, but how is 304? Thank you, James Pronk.| 19651|19650|2009-02-07 15:31:18|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Working with stainless steel|303 is free machining, you can bend it. 304 is similar, a bit less, still considered free machining. You will need a heavy bender to work with 12 mm SS solids - your best bet is to buy an industrial/workshop bender second hand. 316 work hardens by bending or rubbing, so for machining it needs a heavy cut (which needs power and rigidity). James Pronk wrote: > > I was wondering if there are things I should know about stainless steel > before I start building things for my boat. I was wondering about > bending 1/2" rods for the wind vain, do I need to heat it up to a dull > red before or just cold bend it? I know that 316 gets brittle from cold > bending, but how is 304? > Thank you, > James Pronk. > > | 19652|19650|2009-02-07 20:47:05|James Pronk|Re: Working with stainless steel|Thank you for the response. I am often cold bending 3/4" hot rolled for my work so I don't think 1/2 ss will be much of a problem. I do have the use of a hosfeld bender so I could use that. Thank you, James Pronk for --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > > 303 is free machining, you can bend it. > 304 is similar, a bit less, still considered free machining. > > You will need a heavy bender to work with 12 mm SS solids - > your best bet is to buy an industrial/workshop bender second hand. > > 316 work hardens by bending or rubbing, so for machining it needs a > heavy cut (which needs power and rigidity). > > > James Pronk wrote: > > > > I was wondering if there are things I should know about stainless steel > > before I start building things for my boat. I was wondering about > > bending 1/2" rods for the wind vain, do I need to heat it up to a dull > > red before or just cold bend it? I know that 316 gets brittle from cold > > bending, but how is 304? > > Thank you, > > James Pronk. > > > > > | 19653|19650|2009-02-07 21:30:48|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Working with stainless steel|James, I used to bend hundreds of 1/2" stainless axles for greenhouse watering machines using a Hossfeld bender and bending cold around a 1" pin. Four 90 degree bends in each one. We used 304 SS as the 303 would crack. 316 will bend okay too, but the 304 is better where bending is concerned, and I have cracked 316 on sharper bends. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pronk" To: Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Working with stainless steel Thank you for the response. I am often cold bending 3/4" hot rolled for my work so I don't think 1/2 ss will be much of a problem. I do have the use of a hosfeld bender so I could use that. Thank you, James Pronk for --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > > 303 is free machining, you can bend it. > 304 is similar, a bit less, still considered free machining. > > You will need a heavy bender to work with 12 mm SS solids - > your best bet is to buy an industrial/workshop bender second hand. > > 316 work hardens by bending or rubbing, so for machining it needs a > heavy cut (which needs power and rigidity). > > > James Pronk wrote: > > > > I was wondering if there are things I should know about stainless steel > > before I start building things for my boat. I was wondering about > > bending 1/2" rods for the wind vain, do I need to heat it up to a dull > > red before or just cold bend it? I know that 316 gets brittle from cold > > bending, but how is 304? > > Thank you, > > James Pronk. > > > > > | 19654|10783|2009-02-07 21:33:43|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Watermaker|Aaron, Not so great for that either. RO produces a large concentrate stream typically 25% or more of the input flow that is dumped. So you'd lose 25% of your water just filtering it! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Watermaker Yhanks Gary That was what my understanding has been about the total disolved solids. I had my doubts about this system. Maybe it would be great if you had bad water in you tanks? http://www.kinetico.com/KineticoSystems/DrinkingWaterSystems.aspx Aaron --- On Fri, 2/6/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Watermaker To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 5:35 PM Aaron, I happen to work for a company where I design and build RO units for waste water. A little bigger than the boat units, usually 10,000 gallons a day or bigger! The key factor with reverse osmosis is that you must overcome the natural osmotic pressure to force water through the membrane, and that is a function of the concentration of Total Dissolved Solids in the water. The low pressure RO unit you are talking about will only work when the TDS is very low, like you'd find in the tap water you would already drink. It will remove very low levels of impurities. In the case of sea water the TDS is very high so it takes 800 psi or more to push the water through the membrane. If you are in area with very high salinity it will take even more. An interesting phenomenon drove me crazy for a while. When you shut down an RO regular osmosis happens and pushes high pressure back towards the pump. In clean water RO the effect is not so big. But for waste water we aren't trying to squeeze clean water out, we are trying to drive the concentration of the dirty water way up. So when we shut off a unit with a 1200 psi 60 hp pump, all of a sudden it is like we have another 60 hp pump starting up and driving the water back at us! This was blowing the flanges right off the large plastic valves in the feed system to the pump. So I had to dissipate all the osmotic pressure before closing any valves. Surprisingly this takes nearly 2 full MINUTES! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:46 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Watermaker Brent is your Watermaker like the one in your book or did you make some improvements. I was talking to a fellow the other day as he was making an adjustment on or home water softener, He has a osmosis water filter system that he was going to test to see if it would work on his boat, it works on 75lbs water pressure, With the weather here just coming up from -20 deg F for the last 2 weeks it may be awhile before he get to try it. 4" of new snow and no ash yet. I can almost see the volcano from my back door. Aaron --- On Thu, 2/5/09, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Watermaker To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 7:55 PM The last time I fired up the watermaker it was leaking a bunch of air into the intake side , and running rough. I found out that the rubber seal in the 5 micron pre filtre was set up for tap pressure , and as it was on the suction side should be set up for suction (as is our present prime minister) I turned the rubber seal around so it would expand when under suction. I managed to fit a sheetrubber washer between the clear side of the filtre housing and the top, as back up, Then it didn't leak a drop of air,and thus ran very smoothly ,without the pressure fluctuations. I may build a stainless version of the filtre housing in the future. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19655|19628|2009-02-07 21:43:22|ed_lithgow|Re: Mild surface rust beginning in areas of bilge...|You might consider using wicks in the affected locales, if you don't want to drill.Absorbant wicks inside something like a bent plastic drinking straw (to minimise hull contact) could suck up to the point where they start a syphon, if the lift isn't too great. Just a thought.I've done something similar on a wooden boat but you'd have to experiment to see if it can be made to work with your situation. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "eulachon@..." wrote: > > Hi all, > > My boat was home-built a decade ago, by a steel fabricator. He was > very scrupulous about shot-blasting and epoxying the inside and > outside of the hull and didn't skimp out on high quality coatings. > However it seems he neglected to leave drainage (limber) holes where > the stringers meet the framing, and pooling of moisture in those > places has begun to cause paint failure and surface rust in a couple > of spots. > > D'oh! > > Now I am faced with task of establishing just how many places this may > be beginning. Hopefully the little bit I saw under the head is all > there is, but who knows- I'll have to pull up parts of the sole, get > under the Vee-berth, etc, etc. > > Questions: > > As long as the the boat is in water, the inside of the hull will be > wet (unless I'm missing something). So is there any way to treat, or > at least arrest the corrosion before I haul the boat, or must I wait 5 > or 6 months till bottom painting time to have a dry bilge to clean up? > > > > It seems I should be looking at where these moisture collecting spots > are and neutralizing them by drilling limber holes for their drainage, > but the last thing I want to do is compromise the paint with every > hole I drill, and start a rust farm in my bilge! How would I prevent > this? > > Cheers! > | 19656|19656|2009-02-08 17:38:51|Alex|photos of BS 30|Hi All, I'm selling my BS 30, and I've posted photos on a flickr page, here for your interest: http://www.flickr.com/photos/35183978@N08/ Alex| 19657|10783|2009-02-08 18:50:29|brentswain38|Re: Watermaker|It's exactly the same as the one in my book. I just reversed the seal on the 5 micron filtre, and put a bit of sheet rubber behind the top to eliminate the bubbles of air being sucked in. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Brent is your Watermaker like the one in your book or did you make some improvements. > I was talking to a fellow the other day as he was making an adjustment on or home water softener, He has a osmosis water filter system that he was going to test to see if it would work on his boat, it works on 75lbs water pressure, With the weather here just coming up from -20 deg F for the last 2 weeks it may be awhile before he get to try it. 4" of new snow and no ash yet. I can almost see the volcano from my back door. > Aaron > > --- On Thu, 2/5/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Watermaker > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 7:55 PM > > > > > > > The last time I fired up the watermaker it was leaking a bunch of air > into the intake side , and running rough. I found out that the rubber > seal in the 5 micron pre filtre was set up for tap pressure , and as it > was on the suction side should be set up for suction (as is our present > prime minister) > I turned the rubber seal around so it would expand when under suction. > I managed to fit a sheetrubber washer between the clear side of the > filtre housing and the top, as back up, Then it didn't leak a drop of > air,and thus ran very smoothly ,without the pressure fluctuations. > I may build a stainless version of the filtre housing in the future. > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19658|19650|2009-02-08 18:58:33|brentswain38|Re: Working with stainless steel|I heat it cherry red then bend it, being carefull to keep at least a half inch or more between the two surfaces. I once phoned Atlas Alloys to ask about whether stainless should be quenched after heating or let cool slowly. The metalurgist looked it up in his book, then said " quench rapidly". This saves a lot of time fabricating stainless bits and pieces, not having to wait for things to cool. For chocks I weld a couple of 3/4 inch long pieces of 2 inch pipe to a piece of plate with a stop on the outside, heat the rod and wrap it around the pipe, then pull it off and cut it. Then I staighten it out a bit before welding it closed. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I was wondering if there are things I should know about stainless steel > before I start building things for my boat. I was wondering about > bending 1/2" rods for the wind vain, do I need to heat it up to a dull > red before or just cold bend it? I know that 316 gets brittle from cold > bending, but how is 304? > Thank you, > James Pronk. > | 19659|19650|2009-02-08 19:03:44|brentswain38|Re: Working with stainless steel|As I don't use stainless in high load areas, I simply weld up any cracks that form. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > James, > I used to bend hundreds of 1/2" stainless axles for greenhouse watering > machines using a Hossfeld bender and bending cold around a 1" pin. Four 90 > degree bends in each one. We used 304 SS as the 303 would crack. 316 will > bend okay too, but the 304 is better where bending is concerned, and I have > cracked 316 on sharper bends. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Pronk" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:47 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Working with stainless steel > > > Thank you for the response. I am often cold bending 3/4" hot rolled > for my work so I don't think 1/2 ss will be much of a problem. I do > have the use of a hosfeld bender so I could use that. > Thank you, > James Pronk > > for --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" > wrote: > > > > 303 is free machining, you can bend it. > > 304 is similar, a bit less, still considered free machining. > > > > You will need a heavy bender to work with 12 mm SS solids - > > your best bet is to buy an industrial/workshop bender second hand. > > > > 316 work hardens by bending or rubbing, so for machining it needs a > > heavy cut (which needs power and rigidity). > > > > > > James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > I was wondering if there are things I should know about stainless > steel > > > before I start building things for my boat. I was wondering about > > > bending 1/2" rods for the wind vain, do I need to heat it up to a > dull > > > red before or just cold bend it? I know that 316 gets brittle > from cold > > > bending, but how is 304? > > > Thank you, > > > James Pronk. > > > > > > > > > | 19660|19660|2009-02-08 21:19:16|dauntless_v32|aluminum boat with no insulation|I am looking at a nice french built aluminum sloop to purchase but she has no insulation. It would be a problem to take apart the interior to add insulation. Is it possible to live without it in northern climes. Thanks, Ford| 19661|19661|2009-02-09 12:05:10|dejongralph|Leading edges keels 31|1) I found a solid SS rod diameter 45mm (more or less 1 3/4"). I thought of using it as leding edge for the keels, but: -- 45mm instead of 50mm (2") -- SS instead of mild steal > corrosion -- ..... 2) I found a solid mildsteel bar with diameter 80mm. Is this better or to big. What do experts say? Thanks, Ralph| 19662|19660|2009-02-09 16:51:11|eulachon@ymail.com|Re: aluminum boat with no insulation|Hey Ford, My two cents is that it would be a problem. No one would dreeeeam of building a boat here in the Northwest without insulation, and for good reason. Even if you could find a way to keep it warm enough (unlikely) the condensation would be nightmarish. My guess is this is a Riviera boat? I have a friend who got a great deal on a boat that needed to have the interior ripped out and rebuilt. Let's just say that for every minute you spend gutting the interior you'll spend a day rebuilding it. Good Luck!| 19663|19656|2009-02-09 17:34:20|saillips|Re: photos of BS 30|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi All, I'm selling my BS 30, and I've posted photos on a flickr page, > here for your interest: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/35183978@N08/ > > Alex > Hi Alex, May I ask why you're selling it? Thanks, David| 19664|22|2009-02-09 18:35:38|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./285STUDY-GAP.JPG Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Newest Imagiro boat, at 31'/32'. General Arrangement Plan. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./285STUDY-GAP.JPG To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 19665|19665|2009-02-10 01:56:02|lachica31|Information sought on Airhead type loo|Hi Brent (or anyone who might have one), Can you describe or post pictures, drawings or a howto on making an Airhead. I believe that you have an Airhead or an Airhead type that you made yourself. I have considered buying one but at close to US$1000.00 that is not viable as it translates to nearly NZ$2000.00 plus the postage. I have been to the Airhead site but it is mostly pretty pictures but no concrete technical information. So I am looking for enough information to make my own. Any assistance with this would be most welcome. Regards, Paul Thompson| 19666|19666|2009-02-10 02:09:28|lachica31|Direction of flow for keel cooling tank system.|Guys, What is the correct flow arrangement for the keel cooling tank system? Hot water rises, cooling water sinks. The tank is to cool the water so I take it that I draw from the bottom of the tank and return to the top. Next, the water flows through the old header/heat exchanger tank (core/tube bundle has been removed and ends welded shut) which surrounds the exhaust manifold. Should it flow through the old header/heat exchanger tank and then to the engine or to the engine and then through the old header/heat exchanger tank and on to the cooling tank. I can see possible advantages for either way. Through the old header/heat exchanger tank first, would preheat the water on a cold day but would it possibly cause the engine to run hot in the tropics? What is the convention if there is any. Regards, Paul Thompson| 19667|19665|2009-02-10 16:29:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo|On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 06:56:01AM -0000, lachica31 wrote: > Hi Brent (or anyone who might have one), > > Can you describe or post pictures, drawings or a howto on making an > Airhead. I believe that you have an Airhead or an Airhead type that > you made yourself. I've got one, a Nature's Head. Great gadget for peace of mind if nothing else; I don't worry about the cops inspecting my boat anymore. It works pretty well, too. There's almost zero odor, and what little there is (e.g., when I open the main compartment or dump the whole thing) is completely inoffensive, like fresh-turned dirt. I'm very pleased as well as somewhat surprised: I must have seen a hundred people saying "no odor!" when I was reserching it, but to find out that there really isn't any stink at all was a bit beyond my expectations. > I have considered buying one but at close to US$1000.00 that is not > viable as it translates to nearly NZ$2000.00 plus the postage. I have > been to the Airhead site but it is mostly pretty pictures but no > concrete technical information. > > So I am looking for enough information to make my own. Any assistance > with this would be most welcome. I recall Brent describing it here and elsewhere; it really is as simple as he says. A quick search on Google pops up this SSCA discussion (Brent is posting as "Louis Riel" - heh, quite apropos - but his style is unmistakeable. :) http://www.ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?p=33874&sid=5a0e2369639552782a8859568380d540 -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19668|19665|2009-02-10 16:58:23|Donal Philby|Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo|We have an Airhead aboard, 4 years now, and I concur completely. Added benefit: when out on the hard, no problems. Benefit two: I designed the hose to the vent with enough slack that I can loosen two bolts by hand and pick the whole thing up and set it on the shower seat to clean the head compartment or get access for maintenance. Or unscrew the hose and set the unit on the cabin sole. Easy. To assess the cost, consider what you don't need: holding tank, expensive sewer hoses (that need to be changed regularly), head, rebuild kits, through hulls, etc. For me it was Airhead or bucket. No going backwards. Donal -----Original Message----- >From: Ben Okopnik >I've got one, a Nature's Head. Great gadget for peace of mind if nothing >else; I don't worry about the cops inspecting my boat anymore. It works >pretty well, too. There's almost zero odor, and what little there is >(e.g., when I open the main compartment or dump the whole thing) is >completely inoffensive, like fresh-turned dirt. | 19669|22|2009-02-10 18:45:54|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./285STUDY-GAP.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Newest Imagiro Boat. 31/32'. General Arrangement A. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./285STUDY-GAP.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 19670|19666|2009-02-10 19:23:30|Paul Wilson|Re: Direction of flow for keel cooling tank system.|You are right, the water comes up from the bottom of the tank or skeg and returns to the top.  That way if the water level was ever low, you wouldn't suck air and still have flow to cool the engine.  The coolant is preheated by the manifold before going into the engine.  I have been told this is better if you are in a cold climate since it will help prevent a cold shock to the engine but I am not sure if that is really a problem or not.  If your cooler is big enough, it will never overheat, even in the tropics, since the surrounding water has such a great cooling effect.  The coolant in the keel cooler should stay relatively cold compared to the engine.  I have run my engine for over 30 minutes on the hard in Fiji and the skeg was still able to keep the engine cool.  The skeg got warm to touch but the hull is one huge heat sink so everything was still OK. Cheers, Paul ________________________________ From: lachica31 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:09:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Direction of flow for keel cooling tank system. Guys, What is the correct flow arrangement for the keel cooling tank system? Hot water rises, cooling water sinks. The tank is to cool the water so I take it that I draw from the bottom of the tank and return to the top. Next, the water flows through the old header/heat exchanger tank (core/tube bundle has been removed and ends welded shut) which surrounds the exhaust manifold. Should it flow through the old header/heat exchanger tank and then to the engine or to the engine and then through the old header/heat exchanger tank and on to the cooling tank. I can see possible advantages for either way. Through the old header/heat exchanger tank first, would preheat the water on a cold day but would it possibly cause the engine to run hot in the tropics? What is the convention if there is any. Regards, Paul Thompson __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19671|19666|2009-02-10 23:17:40|Carl Anderson|Re: Direction of flow for keel cooling tank system.|Paul, In M.O.M. the cooling water is taken from the bottom of the skeg. Then it passes through the transmission heat exchanger to keep the ATF cool in the ZF25 (it is a hydraulic tranny). Then it goes to the water pump on the engine and circulates through the block. Finally after all that it exits through the thermostat to the top of the header tank that surrounds the exhaust manifold (this is where you check the coolant level as it is the highest point of the entire system). It exits the bottom of the tank and returns to the top of the skeg. It works for me. Carl SV-mom.com lachica31 wrote: > > > Guys, > > What is the correct flow arrangement for the keel cooling tank system? > Hot water rises, cooling water sinks. The tank is to cool the water so > I take it that I draw from the bottom of the tank and return to the top. > > Next, the water flows through the old header/heat exchanger tank > (core/tube bundle has been removed and ends welded shut) which > surrounds the exhaust manifold. Should it flow through the old > header/heat exchanger tank and then to the engine or to the engine and > then through the old header/heat exchanger tank and on to the cooling > tank. > > I can see possible advantages for either way. Through the old > header/heat exchanger tank first, would preheat the water on a cold > day but would it possibly cause the engine to run hot in the tropics? > > What is the convention if there is any. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > | 19672|19665|2009-02-11 06:29:40|stevepallen|Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 06:56:01AM -0000, lachica31 wrote: > > Hi Brent (or anyone who might have one), > > > > Can you describe or post pictures, drawings or a howto on making an > > Airhead. I believe that you have an Airhead or an Airhead type that > > you made yourself. > > I've got one, a Nature's Head. Great gadget for peace of mind if nothing > else; I don't worry about the cops inspecting my boat anymore. It works > pretty well, too. There's almost zero odor, and what little there is > (e.g., when I open the main compartment or dump the whole thing) is > completely inoffensive, like fresh-turned dirt. I'm very pleased as well > as somewhat surprised: I must have seen a hundred people saying "no > odor!" when I was reserching it, but to find out that there really isn't > any stink at all was a bit beyond my expectations. > > > I have considered buying one but at close to US$1000.00 that is not > > viable as it translates to nearly NZ$2000.00 plus the postage. I have > > been to the Airhead site but it is mostly pretty pictures but no > > concrete technical information. > > > > So I am looking for enough information to make my own. Any assistance > > with this would be most welcome. > > I recall Brent describing it here and elsewhere; it really is as simple > as he says. A quick search on Google pops up this SSCA discussion (Brent > is posting as "Louis Riel" - heh, quite apropos - but his style is > unmistakeable. :) > > http://www.ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?p=33874&sid=5a0e2369639552782a8859568380d540 > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > I remember the discussion some time ago. Soon I will be removing the sea toilet as I have some issue adding raw sewage to the coastline though its legal to do so here in the UK. I will be experimenting with some sort of compost toilet, I have the luxury of experimentation as I am not living aboard. I may also try it in my flat, as I have the luxury of living alone. I plan to give coir blocks a go[mentioned lower down in the postings], I read someplace that the small 'pot size portiions' are readily available, handy for the boat. I was wondering what people do with the 'results of their efforts' steve| 19673|19665|2009-02-11 13:01:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo|On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:29:37AM -0000, stevepallen wrote: > > > I remember the discussion some time ago. Soon I will be removing the > sea toilet as I have some issue adding raw sewage to the coastline > though its legal to do so here in the UK. I will be experimenting with > some sort of compost toilet, I have the luxury of experimentation as I > am not living aboard. I may also try it in my flat, as I have the > luxury of living alone. I plan to give coir blocks a go[mentioned > lower down in the postings], I read someplace that the small 'pot size > portiions' are readily available, handy for the boat. I couldn't find the coir blocks anywhere local, although all the nurseries and so on know what I'm talking about and tell me they sometimes have them in stock. Meanwhile, 35 lbs of peat moss (that's 3 cubic feet - I had a hell of a time strapping this huge block on the back of my motorcycle!) was $10 at Home Depot; I split about half of it into 2-gallon ZipLoc bags, and gave the other half away to a friend with a composting toilet. Given that I'm dumping this thing about once every 5-6 weeks, my supply should last about a year. The ZipLocs make it about as trouble-free as I need, so I see no reason to change anything. > I was wondering > what people do with the 'results of their efforts' The standard suggestion seems to be "since people are generally too squeamish to accept stuff like that for their gardens, stick it into a big heavy-duty trash bag and take it ashore to a dumpster." If you're going to do that, I suggest double-bagging; having the bag break while you're loading it into the dinghy could be unpleasant. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19674|10401|2009-02-11 16:02:41|boatwayupnorth|Re: Almost finish|Hei Marcel, Found your post in an older thread and was looking at your photos - congratulations to a marvelous job! You wrote in your message below that you will post some drawings about your Dorade vents in your photo album. Couldn't find them, but would love to have a look on them. So, if you read this post, could you please point me in the right direction where I can find these drawings (when you have made them public at all, that is ...). If you read this while on the water - fair winds! Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel Demers" wrote: > > Bonjour Rowland > > The wood I used inside the boat, teak-sherry wood- white pine- red and > yellow cedar- white oak-and 40 year old cedar, all came from just about > everywhere some from my brother's land (sherry wood) some from a sofa and > small tables a coworker wanted to get rid of (white oak) some from pieces of > wood I gathered in the garage through the years and the rest on sale at Rona > store (balance of stock) The one I used for the settees, the fridge and the > inside steering station is the yellow cedar I got on sale from the Rona > store. > I have put some drawings and pictures in my album ( Marcel's boat) the > drawings are not very large if you want to, send me an email address so I > can send you larger pictures of the drawings.. > By the way I appreciate all your feedbacks ...........merci beaucoup > Marcel > > > Now for my own question. lol What type of wood did you use on the > > interior, specifically on the vertical pieces of the setees, > > steering station, fridge etc.? It looks like birch but I have also > > seen teak that looks similair. Either way it is very nice. Could you > > post some more details and perhapsa drawing regarding those vents, > > they sound very intersting? > > > > Thanks and congrats on a well done project again, > > Rowland > | 19675|19665|2009-02-11 19:38:06|brentswain38|Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo|I use the rotting vegetation under moss covered logs after drying it for a while. Works just as well as anything else I've tried. I take the contents ashore and bury it to fertilise the forests. One of the reasons that Chinese agriculture has lasted so long is they don't throw the nutrients in the rivers and oceans, but return them to their original source. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:29:37AM -0000, stevepallen wrote: > > > > > I remember the discussion some time ago. Soon I will be removing the > > sea toilet as I have some issue adding raw sewage to the coastline > > though its legal to do so here in the UK. I will be experimenting with > > some sort of compost toilet, I have the luxury of experimentation as I > > am not living aboard. I may also try it in my flat, as I have the > > luxury of living alone. I plan to give coir blocks a go[mentioned > > lower down in the postings], I read someplace that the small 'pot size > > portiions' are readily available, handy for the boat. > > I couldn't find the coir blocks anywhere local, although all the > nurseries and so on know what I'm talking about and tell me they > sometimes have them in stock. Meanwhile, 35 lbs of peat moss (that's 3 > cubic feet - I had a hell of a time strapping this huge block on the > back of my motorcycle!) was $10 at Home Depot; I split about half of it > into 2-gallon ZipLoc bags, and gave the other half away to a friend with > a composting toilet. Given that I'm dumping this thing about once every > 5-6 weeks, my supply should last about a year. The ZipLocs make it about > as trouble-free as I need, so I see no reason to change anything. > > > I was wondering > > what people do with the 'results of their efforts' > > The standard suggestion seems to be "since people are generally too > squeamish to accept stuff like that for their gardens, stick it into a > big heavy-duty trash bag and take it ashore to a dumpster." If you're > going to do that, I suggest double-bagging; having the bag break while > you're loading it into the dinghy could be unpleasant. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19676|19676|2009-02-11 19:48:41|brentswain38|Homicidal autopilots|In recent years several pleasure boats , while motoring parallel to BC ferries have done sudden 90 degree turns in front of the ferries . People asked " Why would they suddenly turn in front of a BC ferry. " The probably didn't . Their autopilot did it for them. I have often watched my autohelm suddenly have a button stick and throw the helm hard over. It was a good thing I was not in a busy shipping channel at the time. I have asked the media ,the Coastguard , the transportation safety board and the mounties to better warn people of this danger. None have done anything of the sort. It appears they regard protecting the industries from civil suits more important than saving lives. Sometimes my suggestions have been met with sarcasm. Auto pilots should never be relied on in the presence of big ships or any other heavy traffic. This should be pointed out in any safety literature the Coast guard publishes and should also be included in any boating safety courses offered . Don't expect them to any time soon. They seem to have other priorities. Saving lives appears to be well down that list of priorities Brent| 19677|19661|2009-02-11 19:51:46|brentswain38|Re: Leading edges keels 31|Diameter , no problem. Stainless, big problem. A small amount of stainless attached to a huge amount of mild steel below the waterline will cause no serious problem. That much stainless will eat the mild steel next to it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" wrote: > > 1) > I found a solid SS rod diameter 45mm (more or less 1 3/4"). I thought > of using it as leding edge for the keels, but: > -- 45mm instead of 50mm (2") > -- SS instead of mild steal > corrosion > -- ..... > > 2) > I found a solid mildsteel bar with diameter 80mm. Is this better or > to big. > > What do experts say? > Thanks, > Ralph > | 19678|19660|2009-02-11 20:58:25|brentswain38|Re: aluminum boat with no insulation|I wouldn't dream of living aboard any boat without insulation, especialy aluminium. It would be raining harder inside than outside, most of the winter. How hard it would be to insulate depends on how the interor is put together. In the tropics an uninsulated aluminium boat would become a solar furnace, especialy bare aluminium, altho white paint over the works would be a huge improvement.I had to paint the above water parts in the stern of my aluminium dinghy white to stop burning my feet on it in the tropics. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dauntless_v32" wrote: > > I am looking at a nice french built aluminum sloop to purchase but she > has no insulation. It would be a problem to take apart the interior to > add insulation. Is it possible to live without it in northern climes. > Thanks, Ford > | 19679|19676|2009-02-11 21:15:23|silascrosby|Re: Homicidal autopilots|I have certainly had my boat steer wildly and unpredictably under the guidance of my little tiller pilot (like Brent's). It will predictably steer 25 degrees starboard if I turn on the propane solenoid, which is only ~ .5 m from the autopilot compass. Also the vhf or hf radio will affect the autopilot on transmit. Also if I have moved any large metallic object like a propane tank or spare anchor, even turning it 90 degrees, within a couple of feet of the autopilot , the boat will do a 90 degree turn. Karl noted his solar controller affected his autopilot. My machine hasn't done anything completely random ( now that I understand some of the effects of my actions) for a couple of years. The whole thing bears careful watching. I wonder how close you would need to be to a large ship for it to influence a small boat autopilot. Even if it was an erratic autopilot that caused an accident it would still be the skipper's responsibility, right ? Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > In recent years several pleasure boats , while motoring parallel to > BC ferries have done sudden 90 degree turns in front of the ferries . > People asked " Why would they suddenly turn in front of a BC ferry. " > The probably didn't . Their autopilot did it for them. I have often > watched my autohelm suddenly have a button stick and throw the helm > hard over. It was a good thing I was not in a busy shipping channel > at the time. > I have asked the media ,the Coastguard , the transportation safety > board and the mounties to better warn people of this danger. None have > done anything of the sort. It appears they regard protecting the > industries from civil suits more important than saving lives. > Sometimes my suggestions have been met with sarcasm. > Auto pilots should never be relied on in the presence of big ships or > any other heavy traffic. This should be pointed out in any safety > literature the Coast guard publishes and should also be included in > any boating safety courses offered . Don't expect them to any time > soon. They seem to have other priorities. Saving lives appears to be > well down that list of priorities > Brent > | 19680|19665|2009-02-11 21:21:39|brentswain38|Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo|I made the top of mine out of fibreglass. I used a piece of urethane foam for the mold for the inner part, and when I had it shaped I glued it to a piece of plywood. I epoxy tarred the mold , then coated it with mold release wax. .I should have given myself a bit more clearance in the front and the depth, so I wouldn't ned a separate seat. You need it to slope foreward so the liquids will drain foreward and into the liquids container. I eliminated the trap door for a simple lift out lid that you remove when giving birth to a conservative. A stainless lid from the thrift store with an ss cariage bolt in the middle for a handle works well for this. I molded a raised lip around the conservative birth canal, about 1/2 inch high, so liquids couldn't drain into it. I used a 12 inch diamter by 11 inch deep aluminium pressure cooker from the scrapyard ($2) for the bottom bucket ,altho one could make it match a standard black plastic bucket( slightly smaller). For the shit disturber I welded a stainless 3/8th inch rod hoop with the handle on the outside at 90 degrees tot he hoop so the hoop will lie horizontal when not being cranked. With the parasitic price of airhead and natures head, once you have the mold made, there is a livelihood to be made supplying parts for others who may want to build their own. With Natures head being a copy of airhead in so many ways, there is obviously no effective patent on the concept. While I don't believe that yachts are a measureable influence on serious pollution and are simply being made a handy political scapegoat, to avoid real effective action against real polluters, I made mine for the extreme simplicity of the unit and the ability to eliminate head plumbing , pumps check valves , thru hulls etc, once and for all. I remember crossing the equator on my last trip south , trying to repair a head pump, with sweat dripping down my face, and my hands covered in Conservative afterbirth. Won't have that problem again. I found I had to get the air outlet above my head when standing in the cockpit, as it doesn't compost well in cold weather. I put a weather cocking cap on the outlet so it will draw without the fan in any strong winds and help the fan out a bit. The city of Nananimo, which has proposed draconian rules for yachts, has no secondary sewage treatment at all for a city of over 100,000, and discharges its sewage directly into the most stagnant and current free water in Georgia Strait, which makes it an even greater sewage problem than Victoria or Vancouver. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 06:56:01AM -0000, lachica31 wrote: > > Hi Brent (or anyone who might have one), > > > > Can you describe or post pictures, drawings or a howto on making an > > Airhead. I believe that you have an Airhead or an Airhead type that > > you made yourself. > > I've got one, a Nature's Head. Great gadget for peace of mind if nothing > else; I don't worry about the cops inspecting my boat anymore. It works > pretty well, too. There's almost zero odor, and what little there is > (e.g., when I open the main compartment or dump the whole thing) is > completely inoffensive, like fresh-turned dirt. I'm very pleased as well > as somewhat surprised: I must have seen a hundred people saying "no > odor!" when I was reserching it, but to find out that there really isn't > any stink at all was a bit beyond my expectations. > > > I have considered buying one but at close to US$1000.00 that is not > > viable as it translates to nearly NZ$2000.00 plus the postage. I have > > been to the Airhead site but it is mostly pretty pictures but no > > concrete technical information. > > > > So I am looking for enough information to make my own. Any assistance > > with this would be most welcome. > > I recall Brent describing it here and elsewhere; it really is as simple > as he says. A quick search on Google pops up this SSCA discussion (Brent > is posting as "Louis Riel" - heh, quite apropos - but his style is > unmistakeable. :) > > http://www.ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php? p=33874&sid=5a0e2369639552782a8859568380d540 > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19681|19665|2009-02-11 21:23:31|brentswain38|Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo|The added benefit is a huge advantage for twin keelers that spend a lot of time in drying anchorages. You don't have to wait for high tide to pump the head. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Donal Philby wrote: > > We have an Airhead aboard, 4 years now, and I concur completely. Added benefit: when out on the hard, no problems. Benefit two: I designed the hose to the vent with enough slack that I can loosen two bolts by hand and pick the whole thing up and set it on the shower seat to clean the head compartment or get access for maintenance. Or unscrew the hose and set the unit on the cabin sole. Easy. > > To assess the cost, consider what you don't need: holding tank, expensive sewer hoses (that need to be changed regularly), head, rebuild kits, through hulls, etc. For me it was Airhead or bucket. No going backwards. > > Donal > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Ben Okopnik > > >I've got one, a Nature's Head. Great gadget for peace of mind if nothing > >else; I don't worry about the cops inspecting my boat anymore. It works > >pretty well, too. There's almost zero odor, and what little there is > >(e.g., when I open the main compartment or dump the whole thing) is > >completely inoffensive, like fresh-turned dirt. > | 19682|19676|2009-02-11 21:29:13|brentswain38|Re: Homicidal autopilots|I my experience it only takes a moment's brief inatention to have th eboat do a 90 under autopilot by total surprise, as in the two incidents mentiones . Who hasn't done that? One resulted in the entire crew being killed and the other the guy lost his wife and kids. Makes who is reponsible a moot point to them. I think the TSB, Coast Guard and the Mounties are reponsible for warning people of the dangers. That is what they are being paid for. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > I have certainly had my boat steer wildly and unpredictably under the > guidance of my little tiller pilot (like Brent's). > It will predictably steer 25 degrees starboard if I turn on the > propane solenoid, which is only ~ .5 m from the autopilot compass. > Also the vhf or hf radio will affect the autopilot on transmit. > Also if I have moved any large metallic object like a propane tank or > spare anchor, even turning it 90 degrees, within a couple of feet of > the autopilot , the boat will do a 90 degree turn. > Karl noted his solar controller affected his autopilot. > My machine hasn't done anything completely random ( now that I > understand some of the effects of my actions) for a couple of years. > The whole thing bears careful watching. > I wonder how close you would need to be to a large ship for it to > influence a small boat autopilot. > Even if it was an erratic autopilot that caused an accident it would > still be the skipper's responsibility, right ? > > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > In recent years several pleasure boats , while motoring parallel to > > BC ferries have done sudden 90 degree turns in front of the ferries . > > People asked " Why would they suddenly turn in front of a BC ferry. " > > The probably didn't . Their autopilot did it for them. I have often > > watched my autohelm suddenly have a button stick and throw the helm > > hard over. It was a good thing I was not in a busy shipping channel > > at the time. > > I have asked the media ,the Coastguard , the transportation safety > > board and the mounties to better warn people of this danger. None have > > done anything of the sort. It appears they regard protecting the > > industries from civil suits more important than saving lives. > > Sometimes my suggestions have been met with sarcasm. > > Auto pilots should never be relied on in the presence of big ships or > > any other heavy traffic. This should be pointed out in any safety > > literature the Coast guard publishes and should also be included in > > any boating safety courses offered . Don't expect them to any time > > soon. They seem to have other priorities. Saving lives appears to be > > well down that list of priorities > > Brent > > > | 19683|19665|2009-02-11 22:46:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo|On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 02:21:24AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > With the parasitic price of airhead and natures head, once you have > the mold made, there is a livelihood to be made supplying parts for > others who may want to build their own. With Natures head being a > copy of airhead in so many ways, there is obviously no effective > patent on the concept. One day, the Chinese will get into the act, and these things will sell for $14.99. Really, if you were making the entire thing out of heavy-duty plastic, how much would it cost? (Consider the complexity of the plastic toys that the Japanese include *free* with some of their 50-cent candy, and think really hard about that answer. Some of those toys have movable friction-fit joints.) Meanwhile, it's not about the production cost; it's all about what the market will bear - and I, unfortunately, am not quite as handy as I'd like to be when it comes to molding stuff. I'm also in a position where I can earn more money by working while I let other people charge me extortionate rates for stuff like this head... although with the economy going straight to hell and not even bothering with the handbasket, it looks like I'll be giving that up pretty soon. I'd rather be broke and cruise than be broke and stay here, in the land of endless huge bills. The Nature's Head guy tells me that he has Amish families assembling these things for him. I'm not really clear on the concept, since there's only minimal assembly required no matter what - and most of it could be easily designed out of the product. Besides, the assembly work I've seen is really crappy: the foam seal on the bottom unit (which you actually don't need) was skewed so far to the side that it was stretched and pinched and was creating a leak; the action of the flap is very rough and it jams if you're sitting on the head; the side latches, which are attached upside-down (?), keep popping loose (luckily, this does not cause the unit to fall apart); and the alignment of the assembled parts is just laughable. Fortunately, the basic design is sound enough to overcome all of that. Incidentally, I got to see an Airhead on another boat the other day. Even with all of the above glitches, the Nature's Head unit is a much, much better design. The owner of the AH was quite annoyed after seeing the NH, given that he paid quite a bit more than I did. The NH is quite a bit sturdier, much easier to disassemble for servicing, and the urine bottle is much easier to dump - it's a separate unit. Having seen one, I'm very glad that I went for the NH - although it can definitely stand some improvement. > I remember crossing the equator on my last trip south , > trying to repair a head pump, with sweat dripping down my face, and > my hands covered in Conservative afterbirth. Won't have that problem > again. This is *exactly* why I will never again have one of those goddamn nightmares that's called a "modern head" in the catalogs - I've had that same experience, in 8' seas. Never, ever again. All I've had aboard since then is a Lavac head (simple as it gets), and now the NH. (One of the parts of a modern head is actually called a "joker" valve. Is that a horrible hint of what you should expect, or what?) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19684|19665|2009-02-11 23:11:57|John Fisher|Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo|Cost to roto mold in China would be ~ $25 with about $10K worth of tooling. Just finished doing a molded gas tank with a few inserts, slightly smaller, but I can guess at the costs. Would still take a while to make back your investment. John -------Original Message------- From: Ben Okopnik Date: 2/11/2009 8:48:22 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 02:21:24AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > With the parasitic price of airhead and natures head, once you have > the mold made, there is a livelihood to be made supplying parts for > others who may want to build their own. With Natures head being a > copy of airhead in so many ways, there is obviously no effective > patent on the concept. One day, the Chinese will get into the act, and these things will sell for $14.99. Really, if you were making the entire thing out of heavy-duty plastic, how much would it cost? (Consider the complexity of the plastic toys that the Japanese include *free* with some of their 50-cent candy, and think really hard about that answer. Some of those toys have movable friction-fit joints.) Meanwhile, it's not about the production cost; it's all about what the market will bear - and I, unfortunately, am not quite as handy as I'd like to be when it comes to molding stuff. I'm also in a position where I can earn more money by working while I let other people charge me extortionate rates for stuff like this head... although with the economy going straight to hell and not even bothering with the handbasket, it looks like I'll be giving that up pretty soon. I'd rather be broke and cruise than be broke and stay here, in the land of endless huge bills. The Nature's Head guy tells me that he has Amish families assembling these things for him. I'm not really clear on the concept, since there's only minimal assembly required no matter what - and most of it could be easily designed out of the product. Besides, the assembly work I've seen is really crappy: the foam seal on the bottom unit (which you actually don't need) was skewed so far to the side that it was stretched and pinched and was creating a leak; the action of the flap is very rough and it jams if you're sitting on the head; the side latches, which are attached upside-down (?), keep popping loose (luckily, this does not cause the unit to fall apart); and the alignment of the assembled parts is just laughable. Fortunately, the basic design is sound enough to overcome all of that. Incidentally, I got to see an Airhead on another boat the other day. Even with all of the above glitches, the Nature's Head unit is a much, much better design. The owner of the AH was quite annoyed after seeing the NH, given that he paid quite a bit more than I did. The NH is quite a bit sturdier, much easier to disassemble for servicing, and the urine bottle is much easier to dump - it's a separate unit. Having seen one, I'm very glad that I went for the NH - although it can definitely stand some improvement. > I remember crossing the equator on my last trip south , > trying to repair a head pump, with sweat dripping down my face, and > my hands covered in Conservative afterbirth. Won't have that problem > again. This is *exactly* why I will never again have one of those goddamn nightmares that's called a "modern head" in the catalogs - I've had that same experience, in 8' seas. Never, ever again. All I've had aboard since then is a Lavac head (simple as it gets), and now the NH. (One of the parts of a modern head is actually called a "joker" valve. Is that a horrible hint of what you should expect, or what?) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19685|19685|2009-02-11 23:22:38|lachica31|Summary of knowledge re: Airhead and Natures head loo's|So what is an Airhead/Natures head exactly? As far as I can figure (I have never seen these things. Kiwi's are still about 10 years behind the curve here): 1. It is just a glorified bucket with a stainless steel crank to stir up the contents of the bucket. 2. The lid is shaped so as to separate the solids and liquids. 3. It has some forced ventilation provided by a computer fan (possibly not really needed). 4. The addition of peat/coconut, pith/saw dust or composting vegetation will provide the enzymes to trigger the reaction. 5. The solids turn into compost and can be gifted to your local friendly gardener (here in NZ they sell horse manure for $1 - $2 a bag. May be I can sell my shit? :-) So, if you don't pee in it, a simple bucket will actually do the job? You can make it a little more sophisticated by adding the SS crank to stir the stuff? And adding some mild forced ventilation will ensure no smells (my lovely Chinese wife does not like smooly things!). You can do the pissing in a bottle (nice fancy one from West Marine :-) and chuck it overboard come the witching hour. If you are feeling really energetic, you can make up a shaped lid for the bucket and attach a bottle to it to catch the pee. Every 2 - 4 weeks, I have some compost to sell/donate to the local organic farmer? :-) Have I got it rite! Regards, Paul Thompson| 19686|19676|2009-02-11 23:53:09|dbourg2002|Re: Homicidal autopilots|I don't have the wealth of experience that many of the group has but I do have to wonder of the wisdom of trusting the autopilot in conjested waters with large comercial vessels. When I first started sailing larger boats there was no way I would trust a AP in conjected waters and I still think that way. Don B (Winnipeg) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I my experience it only takes a moment's brief inatention to have th > eboat do a 90 under autopilot by total surprise, as in the two > incidents mentiones . Who hasn't done that? One resulted in the > entire crew being killed and the other the guy lost his wife and > kids. Makes who is reponsible a moot point to them. I think the TSB, > Coast Guard and the Mounties are reponsible for warning people of the > dangers. That is what they are being paid for. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > I have certainly had my boat steer wildly and unpredictably under > the > > guidance of my little tiller pilot (like Brent's). > > It will predictably steer 25 degrees starboard if I turn on the > > propane solenoid, which is only ~ .5 m from the autopilot compass. > > Also the vhf or hf radio will affect the autopilot on transmit. > > Also if I have moved any large metallic object like a propane tank > or > > spare anchor, even turning it 90 degrees, within a couple of feet of > > the autopilot , the boat will do a 90 degree turn. > > Karl noted his solar controller affected his autopilot. > > My machine hasn't done anything completely random ( now that I > > understand some of the effects of my actions) for a couple of > years. > > The whole thing bears careful watching. > > I wonder how close you would need to be to a large ship for it to > > influence a small boat autopilot. > > Even if it was an erratic autopilot that caused an accident it would > > still be the skipper's responsibility, right ? > > > > Steve > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > In recent years several pleasure boats , while motoring parallel > to > > > BC ferries have done sudden 90 degree turns in front of the > ferries . > > > People asked " Why would they suddenly turn in front of a BC > ferry. " > > > The probably didn't . Their autopilot did it for them. I have > often > > > watched my autohelm suddenly have a button stick and throw the > helm > > > hard over. It was a good thing I was not in a busy shipping > channel > > > at the time. > > > I have asked the media ,the Coastguard , the transportation > safety > > > board and the mounties to better warn people of this danger. None > have > > > done anything of the sort. It appears they regard protecting the > > > industries from civil suits more important than saving lives. > > > Sometimes my suggestions have been met with sarcasm. > > > Auto pilots should never be relied on in the presence of big > ships or > > > any other heavy traffic. This should be pointed out in any safety > > > literature the Coast guard publishes and should also be included > in > > > any boating safety courses offered . Don't expect them to any > time > > > soon. They seem to have other priorities. Saving lives appears to > be > > > well down that list of priorities > > > Brent > > > > > > | 19687|19685|2009-02-12 00:03:26|saillips|Re: Summary of knowledge re: Airhead and Natures head loo's|Haven't got any first hand experience, but read about one boater using the same idea adopted to a simple five-gallon bucket system. The "how-to" information is from the book Humanure found at this site: http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.html It's a wonderful treatise on the whole idea of an infrastructure built to deliver potable water, which is then put into a porcelean bowl and used to evacuate excrement, which then has to be treated (hopefully) at a municipal plant to deliver clean water again.Best researched and bibliographed book I've read in a while. He backs it up with 20 something years of the bucket/compost system at home with his family. After working 2 years, the compost is clean and free of pathogens, bacteria, etc, and goes into the garden. David| 19688|19685|2009-02-12 00:13:16|lachica31|Re: Summary of knowledge re: Airhead and Natures head loo's|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "saillips" wrote: > > Haven't got any first hand experience, but read about one boater using > the same idea adopted to a simple five-gallon bucket system. The > "how-to" information is from the book Humanure found at this site: > http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.html > It's a wonderful treatise on the whole idea of an infrastructure built > to deliver potable water, which is then put into a porcelean bowl and > used to evacuate excrement, which then has to be treated (hopefully) > at a municipal plant to deliver clean water again.Best researched and > bibliographed book I've read in a while. > He backs it up with 20 something years of the bucket/compost system at > home with his family. After working 2 years, the compost is clean and > free of pathogens, bacteria, etc, and goes into the garden. > David > Yes, I am aware of the Humanure book and have read it from cover to cover. Informative and entertaining reading. However he likes his composting on the wet side, the exact opposite of the Airhead/Natures head philosophy. Paul Thompson| 19689|19666|2009-02-12 00:16:12|lachica31|Re: Direction of flow for keel cooling tank system.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > You are right, the water comes up from the bottom of the tank or skeg and returns to the top.  That way if the water level was ever low, you wouldn't suck air and still have flow to cool the engine.  The coolant is preheated by the manifold before going into the engine.  I have been told this is better if you are in a cold climate since it will help prevent a cold shock to the engine but I am not sure if that is really a problem or not.  If your cooler is big enough, it will never overheat, even in the tropics, since the surrounding water has such a great cooling effect.  The coolant in the keel cooler should stay relatively cold compared to the engine.  I have run my engine for over 30 minutes on the hard in Fiji and the skeg was still able to keep the engine cool.  The skeg got warm to touch but the hull is one huge heat sink so everything was still OK. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ________________________________ > > From: lachica31 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:09:26 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Direction of flow for keel cooling tank system. > > Guys, > > What is the correct flow arrangement for the keel cooling tank system? > Hot water rises, cooling water sinks. The tank is to cool the water so > I take it that I draw from the bottom of the tank and return to the top. > > Next, the water flows through the old header/heat exchanger tank > (core/tube bundle has been removed and ends welded shut) which > surrounds the exhaust manifold. Should it flow through the old > header/heat exchanger tank and then to the engine or to the engine and > then through the old header/heat exchanger tank and on to the cooling > tank. > > I can see possible advantages for either way. Through the old > header/heat exchanger tank first, would preheat the water on a cold > day but would it possibly cause the engine to run hot in the tropics? > > What is the convention if there is any. > Thanks Paul (Wilson), Then I got it right and will do it as you have done. Paul Thompson| 19690|19665|2009-02-12 00:28:30|lachica31|Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I made the top of mine out of fibreglass. I used a piece of urethane > foam for the mold for the inner part, and when I had it shaped I > glued it to a piece of plywood. I epoxy tarred the mold , then coated ........ Thanks Brent, this has been most helpful. Paul| 19691|19676|2009-02-12 10:19:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: Homicidal autopilots|On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 02:15:21AM -0000, silascrosby wrote: > I have certainly had my boat steer wildly and unpredictably under the > guidance of my little tiller pilot (like Brent's). I've had mine decide to slam the wheel hard over without any cause whatsoever. I was making a passage across and up the Gulf Stream from the Bahamas to Florida, close-hauled on a 200-mile tack. Both of us were in the cockpit just sitting and talking; suddenly, the autopilot whirred and we tacked smartly. Fortunately, I carry a spare "head" unit; I swapped it in, put us about, and we proceeded on our merry way. Later on, when I tested it, it worked just fine. As a guy who has repaired a number of these units, I have to say that the output transistors (the gadgets that actually drive the autopilot motor) are way, way undersized in all of them - by a factor of at least 4. As a result, they overheat and blow out as soon as the weather gets a little rough, and misbehave at random times from having been over-stressed at some point. When I was cruising, I made a good bit of money by carrying spare driver transistors on board for exactly this kind of thing. I've actually thought of marketing power amplifiers for the most common autopilots out there, but decided that it's too narrow of a market, that most people wouldn't even understand the need, and that it would be too expensive (and possibly drop me into legal hot water) to match all the proprietary connectors for the different brands. > I wonder how close you would need to be to a large ship for it to > influence a small boat autopilot. Well, that's a good question - but I don't know if it works that way. Some years ago, I was travelling the ICW in company with a rather large steel vessel, and I was running my autopilot most of the time. Even though we passed each other several times, mostly within 50-100 feet, the autopilot didn't deviate a hair. > Even if it was an erratic autopilot that caused an accident it would > still be the skipper's responsibility, right ? Yep. You're still the skipper, skipper. The ultimate responsibility is yours. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19692|19685|2009-02-12 13:43:09|mark hamill|Re: Summary of knowledge re: Humanmanure simplicity|How irritatingly simple--there must be a way to complicate them--let me see...... Great site.| 19693|19685|2009-02-12 14:24:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: Summary of knowledge re: Airhead and Natures head loo's|On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 04:22:36AM -0000, lachica31 wrote: > So what is an Airhead/Natures head exactly? As far as I can figure (I > have never seen these things. Kiwi's are still about 10 years behind > the curve here): > > 1. It is just a glorified bucket with a stainless steel crank to stir > up the contents of the bucket. > > 2. The lid is shaped so as to separate the solids and liquids. > > 3. It has some forced ventilation provided by a computer fan (possibly > not really needed). [snip] You really do need the forced ventilation. The only stories I've ever heard where a composting head started smelling all ended with "...and then I found out that the fan died." > Have I got it rite! Yep - pretty much everything was right on the dot. If you're designing your own, it's really convenient to have the liquids and solids containers positioned together so they can be used at the same time, and also really handy if you can easily remove the liquids container (preferably replacing it with another bottle until you get a chance to empty the full one.) Another good idea is to have the fan at the top of the air vent rather than built into the unit: if the pipe sweats - which it will in the winter - the water is going to run back down the pipe and short out the fan. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19694|19676|2009-02-12 14:37:14|Paul Wilson|Re: Homicidal autopilots|Hi Guys, I have repaired quite a few autopilots over the years both on fish boats and on aircraft since it was my job. A common failure on a boat is the wires to the flux sensor. If you saw one apart, a flux sensor is a very fine coil on a gimbal assembly. The wires are extremely small (not much larger than a hair) since there are many turns in the windings in order to get the sensitivity to pick up the earth's magnetic field. Because these wires are always flexing, they eventually can break or go intermittent due to corrosion. The gimbal can also stick in rough weather and cause a wild course. Moving the autopilot frees it again and then everything is Ok until it sticks again. My guess is that if people knew how fragile these flux sensors were, they would treat their autopilot much more gently. Tiller pilots are constantly moved a bumped and damaged. Treat them like eggs. Some cheap boat autopilots used Hall effect transistors instead of flux sensors since they are cheaper and had no moving parts. I don't think they had much success since they weren't very sensitive. If drive transistors fail, I think this is mainly a fault of being overloaded due to either a hard steering boat or a too small autopilot. Aside from that, transistor/ FET technology is constantly changing and I think it is better than it was 15 years ago. I met one marine electronics tech who had lots of failures when FETs first started being used. With an autopilot driving a trim tab like on Brent's boats, overloading should never be a factor. I have had my tiller pilot apart more than once to fix it. Every single failure has been corrosion related. It is amazing to me how poorly engineered a seal on something meant for a boat can be. Hermetically sealed means plastic on plastic with a bit of crazy glue. You can have all the technology and sophistication in the world, but if you can't keep the water out or the little plastic switch doodad breaks, it will fail. I usually buy "Goop" from the store and with a syringe, put a narrow bead around all case seals. If you ever need to get it apart, it peals back cleanly. I have often thought of taking all the guts out of my tiller pilot and mounting it separately into a Tupperware container. It would probably last a lot longer. Connectors on the circuitry in marine electronics are almost always tin or silver plating and eventually fail. Gold is the standard on aircraft because it doesn't tarnish. Gold is of course much more expensive. It seems funny to me that you will have gold contacts in a computer at home but not in marine electronics where you really need it. Silicone dielectric grease helps on connectors but only use a thin coating. Never spray WD-40 or the commercial contact cleaners on anything plastic. Most of the time they are OK but I have seen some plastics destroyed by products with a petroleum base like WD-40. I know of one guy who had a Y-valve on his head fall apart after soaking it in WD-40. It just crumbled and could have sunk his boat. If an autopilot goes nuts because of a ship going close by, it is almost certainly a radio wave phenomenon rather than a magnetic one. Boat wiring acts like a great antenna for RF energy from a transmitter. My bet is the ship was transmitting on a powerful radio or the ships radar was screwing the autopilot up. It happened to a civilian helicopter in the past where the autopilot lost control when it was painted by a military radar. They redesigned all the wiring with double shielded wire on later helicopters in the critical systems and solved the problem. My autopilot would always go nuts when I transmitted on my SSB radio. There was not much I could do so just learned to turn it off and drift if I wanted to talk to someone. To properly shield electronics from RF energy is tricky and expensive and seldom done since it adds so much to the cost. It's possible almost every boat would have to be rewired if they tested them and regulated them the way they test aircraft. I don't think I want to go there. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19695|19676|2009-02-12 15:00:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: Homicidal autopilots|On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 08:35:24AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I have repaired quite a few autopilots over the years both on fish boats and > on aircraft since it was my job. A common failure on a boat is the wires to > the flux sensor. True; I've seen a couple of Robertson autopilots that died this way. > If drive transistors fail, I think this is mainly a fault of being > overloaded due to either a hard steering boat or a too small autopilot. Given the prices on those things, msot people tend to go small. It's a very common problem out there. > With an > autopilot driving a trim tab like on Brent's boats, overloading should never > be a factor. Heh. True enough, but how many people actually know enough to set that up? You're really talking about setting up a windvane and an autopilot, and most people by far will go for either one or the other - but not both. > I have had my tiller pilot apart more than once to fix it. Every single > failure has been corrosion related. Yep. On a boat, you can assume that to be the problem 99 percent of the time. What really annoys the hell out of me is that the AP manufacturers don't take the (minimal) time necessary to just pot the board. Hell, I've seen $3 Chinese AM/FM radios where the board was covered in that standard brown corrosion-preventing glop; it's not like it would take much! > It is amazing to me how poorly > engineered a seal on something meant for a boat can be. Hermetically sealed > means plastic on plastic with a bit of crazy glue. Back when Autohelm used to make pot-metal cases, they used to use a cross-shaped seal: two of the "arms" would go into the slots cut in the metal, and the other two would form a seal between the edges. You could feel the thing pop as you took it apart, and there were rarely any corrosion problems. Now that they make plastic cases, they went to an H-shaped seal - and I've had to tell lots of people "sorry, your unit can't be repaired" because the circuit board had big splotches of corrosion on it where water had obviously leaked in. > I have > often thought of taking all the guts out of my tiller pilot and mounting it > separately into a Tupperware container. It would probably last a lot > longer. I suspect it would. What they use for cases these days is a crime - especially for the price. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19696|19696|2009-02-12 15:07:51|De Clarke|air head on board|good resource on composting http://www.compostguy.com/category/composting-toilets/ I have an Air Head on board. the only reason I paid the outrageous price for something that could very well have been built from OTS parts for a fraction thereof, was that the US Coasties have blessed it as an acceptable Marine Sanitation Device and therefore it makes the boat legal in US waters. at the time I was planning to sail into US waters; so it seemed a wise precaution. if you have access to land -- any land with stuff growing on it -- then the matured contents of the AH should be returned to the soil *unless* you are taking heavy antibiotics or other powerful pharmaceuticals. imho. as Brent says, a prime error of our culture is the foolish attempt to interrupt the nutrient cycle that feeds the soil. as Joel Salatin comments (wrt animal husbandry but it is just as true for humanure), we create two separate problems (soil depletion and waste management) instead of one elegant and time-honoured solution (waste recycling as practised by the rest of the biotic realm). in summary -- the AH is overpriced and you can make a composting loo with a bucket and sawdust; but it's coastie-legal in Yankistan which may be worth the price of admission. I use mine lightly while at the dock -- one load of peat/coir has lasted a year so far with "emergency only" use. smell is very slight even w/o an active fan (but a reasonable rise of vent stack). de| 19697|19665|2009-02-12 15:17:21|mark hamill|Re: Information sought on Airhead type loo--dimensions|Perhaps we as a group could come up with the dimensions/photos of the heads others have built and manufactured heads and include them in the files section. For example what is the dimension of the poop hole (no wise ass comments ye preverts;) what is the distance between the liquid and solid holes?, is there a funnel/slope leading to the liquid hole?, what is the sitting height dimension, capacity of solids/liquids? I could try and put this together if you send me specifics and I could put together the discussion so far. What sayest?? Markh| 19698|19698|2009-02-12 15:28:56|brianchabassol|Dove 3 Steering arrangement|Just wondering if anyone out there has had an oppertunity to see the steering arangement of Dove 3. From the photos I have seen it is a rope and pulley affair to the rudder, I dont see a trim tab. I was wondering if this arrangement has been used sucessfully with a trim tab and if it would still be possible to hook an auto helm to the wheel. I think Brents jog stick arrangement would be easier but Im an aircraft mechanic and we seem to like things a bit complex. Plus I like the idea of sitting at the helm with a real wheel ,coffee in hand listening to my music and the rain falling , better put another log in the stove its getting chilly. Thanks Brian| 19699|19676|2009-02-12 15:38:32|Paul Wilson|Re: Homicidal autopilots|>>>>Heh. True enough, but how many people actually know enough to set that up? You're really talking about setting up a windvane and an autopilot, and most people by far will go for either one or the other - but not both. I feel lost without having both. Often there is little or no wind and having a cheap tiller pilot is not a luxury, in my mind. When my tiller pilot quit the day we left Fiji, my wife was in tears. I convinced her to keep going since the forecast was for good wind but we had to hand steer for a few days going in to NZ when we decided to motor. My wife hates steering so I think if I didn't have a tiller pilot, I would be divorced by now. It's so easy to set up for both. Remove link from windvane to trim tab arm. Insert tiller autopilot. You don't even have to remove the link. If the windvane can "freewheel" when disengaged, the autopilot moves all the linkages which are low friction anyway. All I have is the standard tiller pilot pin mounted on the trim tab arm and the tiller pilot goes from the toe rail to the arm. The standard tiller pilots can be set up to be used on either side of the boat so all you have to do is follow the directions to get the tab to move the right way...opposite to a standard rudder. You may have to play with the gain a bit, but I have found the factory settings usually about right. Ben, I know you know this..:). Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19700|19676|2009-02-12 15:41:01|Paul Wilson|Re: Homicidal autopilots|>>>>Heh. True enough, but how many people actually know enough to set that up? You're really talking about setting up a windvane and an autopilot, and most people by far will go for either one or the other - but not both. I feel lost without having both. Often there is little or no wind and having a cheap tiller pilot is not a luxury, in my mind. When my tiller pilot quit the day we left Fiji, my wife was in tears. I convinced her to keep going since the forecast was for good wind but we had to hand steer for a few days going in to NZ when we decided to motor. My wife hates steering so I think if I didn't have a tiller pilot, I would be divorced by now. It's so easy to set up for both. Remove link from windvane to trim tab arm. Insert tiller autopilot. You don't even have to remove the link. If the windvane can "freewheel" when disengaged, the autopilot moves all the linkages which are low friction anyway. All I have is the standard tiller pilot pin mounted on the trim tab arm and the tiller pilot goes from the toe rail to the arm. The standard tiller pilots can be set up to be used on either side of the boat so all you have to do is follow the directions to get the tab to move the right way...opposite to a standard rudder. You may have to play with the gain a bit, but I have found the factory settings usually about right. Ben, I know you know this..:). Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19701|19701|2009-02-12 23:02:03|dbourg2002|Home Depot Panel-frp Panel|I was down to Home Depot last night and as I was wandering around spotted some thin panels made of frp that looked to me like they might have some application for interiors. They were extremely strong and only about 1/8" thick. They also had not to bad a pattern on them, something like little bumps like the ceiling panels for houses they sell. They were a bit pricey at $45/4 X * sheet but they look like they would be puncture proof and you could probably make them removeable. Might be good for the interior of the head as well. If you go down there they might be worth checking out. Don (Winnipeg, nowwhere near any serious water !)| 19702|19661|2009-02-13 01:49:39|dejongralph|Re: Leading edges keels 31|Okey, so no ss bars. At work there are 3"(80mm)mildsteal bars. Are they to big to get the proper wing shape? Thanks, Ralph --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Diameter , no problem. Stainless, big problem. A small amount of > stainless attached to a huge amount of mild steel below the waterline > will cause no serious problem. That much stainless will eat the mild > steel next to it. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" > wrote: > > > > 1) > > I found a solid SS rod diameter 45mm (more or less 1 3/4"). I thought > > of using it as leding edge for the keels, but: > > -- 45mm instead of 50mm (2") > > -- SS instead of mild steal > corrosion > > -- ..... > > > > 2) > > I found a solid mildsteel bar with diameter 80mm. Is this better or > > to big. > > > > What do experts say? > > Thanks, > > Ralph > > > | 19703|19661|2009-02-13 01:55:42|brentswain38|Re: Leading edges keels 31|A bit big, but they will work. Keep in mind that if you draw a line thru them horizontaly when they are on the boat, you get an elipse, much sharper on the leading edge than the three inch cut horizontally when it is vertical. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" wrote: > > Okey, so no ss bars. > At work there are 3"(80mm)mildsteal bars. Are they to big to get > the proper wing shape? > > Thanks, > Ralph > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Diameter , no problem. Stainless, big problem. A small amount of > > stainless attached to a huge amount of mild steel below the > waterline > > will cause no serious problem. That much stainless will eat the > mild > > steel next to it. > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" > > wrote: > > > > > > 1) > > > I found a solid SS rod diameter 45mm (more or less 1 3/4"). I > thought > > > of using it as leding edge for the keels, but: > > > -- 45mm instead of 50mm (2") > > > -- SS instead of mild steal > corrosion > > > -- ..... > > > > > > 2) > > > I found a solid mildsteel bar with diameter 80mm. Is this > better or > > > to big. > > > > > > What do experts say? > > > Thanks, > > > Ralph > > > > > > | 19704|19666|2009-02-13 02:08:04|brentswain38|Re: Direction of flow for keel cooling tank system.|I run mine from bottom of he skeg directly to the engine then thru the exhuast manifold, then the header tank , then back to the skeg. Haven't had any cold shock in BC waters. I think the thermostat stays closed till things warm up a bit anyway. I made up an ss pipe fitting with a hose fitting on one end and a plastic hose barb on the other. This lets me jam the hose barb into the outlet of the header tank and a hose to the other end to enable me to force water or antifreze thru the skeg until it gushes out the other pipe into the header tank, forcing any airlocks out of the system. It also lets me go up to the gas dock at night and flush my cooling system out completely anytime, then replace the water with antifreeze later, at anchor. brent Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > You are right, the water comes up from the bottom of the tank or > skeg and returns to the top.  That way if the water level was ever > low, you wouldn't suck air and still have flow to cool the engine.  > The coolant is preheated by the manifold before going into the > engine.  I have been told this is better if you are in a cold climate > since it will help prevent a cold shock to the engine but I am not > sure if that is really a problem or not.  If your cooler is big > enough, it will never overheat, even in the tropics, since the > surrounding water has such a great cooling effect.  The coolant in the > keel cooler should stay relatively cold compared to the engine.  I > have run my engine for over 30 minutes on the hard in Fiji and the > skeg was still able to keep the engine cool.  The skeg got warm to > touch but the hull is one huge heat sink so everything was still OK. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: lachica31 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:09:26 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Direction of flow for keel cooling tank system. > > > > Guys, > > > > What is the correct flow arrangement for the keel cooling tank system? > > Hot water rises, cooling water sinks. The tank is to cool the water so > > I take it that I draw from the bottom of the tank and return to the top. > > > > Next, the water flows through the old header/heat exchanger tank > > (core/tube bundle has been removed and ends welded shut) which > > surrounds the exhaust manifold. Should it flow through the old > > header/heat exchanger tank and then to the engine or to the engine and > > then through the old header/heat exchanger tank and on to the cooling > > tank. > > > > I can see possible advantages for either way. Through the old > > header/heat exchanger tank first, would preheat the water on a cold > > day but would it possibly cause the engine to run hot in the tropics? > > > > What is the convention if there is any. > > > > Thanks Paul (Wilson), Then I got it right and will do it as you have done. > > Paul Thompson > | 19705|19676|2009-02-13 02:15:22|brentswain38|Re: Homicidal autopilots|Most autopilots fill with water at the first oportunity, despite their claims of being waterproof. This is a good reason to locate them belowdecks, operated via the trimtab, as I have shown in my book . This drastically reduces corrosion too. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > > I have repaired quite a few autopilots over the years both on fish boats and > on aircraft since it was my job. A common failure on a boat is the wires to > the flux sensor. If you saw one apart, a flux sensor is a very fine coil on > a gimbal assembly. The wires are extremely small (not much larger than a > hair) since there are many turns in the windings in order to get the > sensitivity to pick up the earth's magnetic field. Because these wires > are always flexing, they eventually can break or go intermittent due to > corrosion. The gimbal can also stick in rough weather and cause a wild > course. Moving the autopilot frees it again and then everything is Ok until > it sticks again. My guess is that if people knew how fragile these flux > sensors were, they would treat their autopilot much more gently. Tiller > pilots are constantly moved a bumped and damaged. Treat them like eggs. > Some cheap boat autopilots used Hall effect transistors instead of flux > sensors since they are cheaper and had no moving parts. I don't think they > had much success since they weren't very sensitive. > > > > If drive transistors fail, I think this is mainly a fault of being > overloaded due to either a hard steering boat or a too small autopilot. > Aside from that, transistor/ FET technology is constantly changing and I > think it is better than it was 15 years ago. I met one marine electronics > tech who had lots of failures when FETs first started being used. With an > autopilot driving a trim tab like on Brent's boats, overloading should never > be a factor. > > > > I have had my tiller pilot apart more than once to fix it. Every single > failure has been corrosion related. It is amazing to me how poorly > engineered a seal on something meant for a boat can be. Hermetically sealed > means plastic on plastic with a bit of crazy glue. You can have all the > technology and sophistication in the world, but if you can't keep the water > out or the little plastic switch doodad breaks, it will fail. I usually buy > "Goop" from the store and with a syringe, put a narrow bead around all case > seals. If you ever need to get it apart, it peals back cleanly. I have > often thought of taking all the guts out of my tiller pilot and mounting it > separately into a Tupperware container. It would probably last a lot > longer. > > > > Connectors on the circuitry in marine electronics are almost always tin or > silver plating and eventually fail. Gold is the standard on aircraft > because it doesn't tarnish. Gold is of course much more expensive. It > seems funny to me that you will have gold contacts in a computer at home but > not in marine electronics where you really need it. Silicone dielectric > grease helps on connectors but only use a thin coating. Never spray WD-40 > or the commercial contact cleaners on anything plastic. Most of the time > they are OK but I have seen some plastics destroyed by products with a > petroleum base like WD-40. I know of one guy who had a Y-valve on his head > fall apart after soaking it in WD-40. It just crumbled and could have sunk > his boat. > > > > If an autopilot goes nuts because of a ship going close by, it is almost > certainly a radio wave phenomenon rather than a magnetic one. Boat wiring > acts like a great antenna for RF energy from a transmitter. My bet is the > ship was transmitting on a powerful radio or the ships radar was screwing > the autopilot up. It happened to a civilian helicopter in the past where > the autopilot lost control when it was painted by a military radar. They > redesigned all the wiring with double shielded wire on later helicopters in > the critical systems and solved the problem. My autopilot would always go > nuts when I transmitted on my SSB radio. There was not much I could do so > just learned to turn it off and drift if I wanted to talk to someone. To > properly shield electronics from RF energy is tricky and expensive and > seldom done since it adds so much to the cost. It's possible almost every > boat would have to be rewired if they tested them and regulated them the way > they test aircraft. I don't think I want to go there. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19706|19676|2009-02-13 02:18:59|brentswain38|Re: Homicidal autopilots|I use both, just take the inside steering linkage off when using the windvane. Would't feel safe not having both options, given how simple and cheap they are. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > >>>>Heh. True enough, but how many people actually know enough to set that > up? You're really talking about setting up a windvane and an autopilot, > and most people by far will go for either one or the other - but not > both. > > > > I feel lost without having both. Often there is little or no wind and > having a cheap tiller pilot is not a luxury, in my mind. When my tiller > pilot quit the day we left Fiji, my wife was in tears. I convinced her to > keep going since the forecast was for good wind but we had to hand steer for > a few days going in to NZ when we decided to motor. My wife hates steering > so I think if I didn't have a tiller pilot, I would be divorced by now. > > > > It's so easy to set up for both. Remove link from windvane to trim tab arm. > Insert tiller autopilot. You don't even have to remove the link. If the > windvane can "freewheel" when disengaged, the autopilot moves all the > linkages which are low friction anyway. All I have is the standard tiller > pilot pin mounted on the trim tab arm and the tiller pilot goes from the toe > rail to the arm. The standard tiller pilots can be set up to be used on > either side of the boat so all you have to do is follow the directions to > get the tab to move the right way...opposite to a standard rudder. You may > have to play with the gain a bit, but I have found the factory settings > usually about right. > > > > Ben, I know you know this..:). > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19707|19698|2009-02-13 02:27:30|brentswain38|Re: Dove 3 Steering arrangement|Jack did a circumnavigatioin with that rig . Said it takes 8 knots of wind to work well ,Andy said the same after a Pacific circumnavigation. The vane in my book works in two knots of wind. Andy is changing it for the vertical axis one in my book. Steve tried the horizontal axis one , then went for the one in the book . Said it was less fiddling around to use it. I crossed the Comox bar in a good southeasterly , steering with the jog stick arrangement in my book . Hard over to hard over was a flick of the finger on the jog stick. Glad I didn't have a wheel to have to pump on and be constantly wondering where the rudder was pointed. I started with a wheel. Going from that to the jog stick was like going from the stone age to the space age. Even supertankers have replaced the wheel with jog sticks. You won't find a wheel on any new ones. The QE2 doesn't have a wheel, only jog sticks. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone out there has had an oppertunity to see the > steering arangement of Dove 3. From the photos I have seen it is a rope > and pulley affair to the rudder, I dont see a trim tab. I was wondering > if this arrangement has been used sucessfully with a trim tab and if it > would still be possible to hook an auto helm to the wheel. I think > Brents jog stick arrangement would be easier but Im an aircraft > mechanic and we seem to like things a bit complex. Plus I like the idea > of sitting at the helm with a real wheel ,coffee in hand listening to > my music and the rain falling , better put another log in the stove its > getting chilly. > Thanks > Brian > | 19708|19698|2009-02-13 06:07:33|brianchabassol|Re: Dove 3 Steering arrangement|Hi Brent Thanks for the fast reply, I was wondering also if I go with the jogstick does the wind vane has enough power to overcome the friction from the linkage in the jogstick assembly, or would the jogstick have to be disconnected at the top of the trim tab when the vane was being used? Hows the weather back home ? Thanks Brian --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Jack did a circumnavigatioin with that rig . Said it takes 8 knots > of wind to work well ,Andy said the same after a Pacific > circumnavigation. The vane in my book works in two knots of wind. > Andy is changing it for the vertical axis one in my book. Steve > tried the horizontal axis one , then went for the one in the book . > Said it was less fiddling around to use it. > I crossed the Comox bar in a good southeasterly , steering with the > jog stick arrangement in my book . Hard over to hard over was a > flick of the finger on the jog stick. Glad I didn't have a wheel to > have to pump on and be constantly wondering where the rudder was > pointed. I started with a wheel. Going from that to the jog stick > was like going from the stone age to the space age. Even > supertankers have replaced the wheel with jog sticks. You won't find > a wheel on any new ones. The QE2 doesn't have a wheel, only jog > sticks. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" > wrote: > > > > Just wondering if anyone out there has had an oppertunity to see > the > > steering arangement of Dove 3. From the photos I have seen it is a > rope > > and pulley affair to the rudder, I dont see a trim tab. I was > wondering > > if this arrangement has been used sucessfully with a trim tab and > if it > > would still be possible to hook an auto helm to the wheel. I think > > Brents jog stick arrangement would be easier but Im an aircraft > > mechanic and we seem to like things a bit complex. Plus I like the > idea > > of sitting at the helm with a real wheel ,coffee in hand listening > to > > my music and the rain falling , better put another log in the > stove its > > getting chilly. > > Thanks > > Brian > > > | 19709|19698|2009-02-13 13:32:29|brentswain38|Re: Dove 3 Steering arrangement|To use the windvane you have to disconnect the inside steering , by simply lifting the linkage out of the trimtab tiller. It is getting springlike here, sunny but slighly cool, near 0 at night and plus 8 in the daytime. If you are building back there , how do you plan to get your mast back there? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" wrote: > > Hi Brent > Thanks for the fast reply, I was wondering also if I go with the > jogstick does the wind vane has enough power to overcome the friction > from the linkage in the jogstick assembly, or would the jogstick have > to be disconnected at the top of the trim tab when the vane was being > used? Hows the weather back home ? > Thanks > Brian > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Jack did a circumnavigatioin with that rig . Said it takes 8 knots > > of wind to work well ,Andy said the same after a Pacific > > circumnavigation. The vane in my book works in two knots of wind. > > Andy is changing it for the vertical axis one in my book. Steve > > tried the horizontal axis one , then went for the one in the book . > > Said it was less fiddling around to use it. > > I crossed the Comox bar in a good southeasterly , steering with > the > > jog stick arrangement in my book . Hard over to hard over was a > > flick of the finger on the jog stick. Glad I didn't have a wheel to > > have to pump on and be constantly wondering where the rudder was > > pointed. I started with a wheel. Going from that to the jog stick > > was like going from the stone age to the space age. Even > > supertankers have replaced the wheel with jog sticks. You won't > find > > a wheel on any new ones. The QE2 doesn't have a wheel, only jog > > sticks. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" > > wrote: > > > > > > Just wondering if anyone out there has had an oppertunity to see > > the > > > steering arangement of Dove 3. From the photos I have seen it is > a > > rope > > > and pulley affair to the rudder, I dont see a trim tab. I was > > wondering > > > if this arrangement has been used sucessfully with a trim tab and > > if it > > > would still be possible to hook an auto helm to the wheel. I > think > > > Brents jog stick arrangement would be easier but Im an aircraft > > > mechanic and we seem to like things a bit complex. Plus I like > the > > idea > > > of sitting at the helm with a real wheel ,coffee in hand > listening > > to > > > my music and the rain falling , better put another log in the > > stove its > > > getting chilly. > > > Thanks > > > Brian > > > > > > | 19710|19676|2009-02-13 14:22:58|Paul Wilson|Re: Homicidal autopilots|Brent, do you have the tillerpilot mounted below? I am wondering how well it steers the boat if mounted down there. I am redoing my stern pulpit and will be adding the cable. My copy of your book is a first edition and is missing most of the "extras". I should buy a new copy, I guess. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:15 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Homicidal autopilots Most autopilots fill with water at the first oportunity, despite their claims of being waterproof. This is a good reason to locate them belowdecks, operated via the trimtab, as I have shown in my book . This drastically reduces corrosion too. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > > I have repaired quite a few autopilots over the years both on fish boats and > on aircraft since it was my job. A common failure on a boat is the wires to > the flux sensor. If you saw one apart, a flux sensor is a very fine coil on > a gimbal assembly. The wires are extremely small (not much larger than a > hair) since there are many turns in the windings in order to get the > sensitivity to pick up the earth's magnetic field. Because these wires > are always flexing, they eventually can break or go intermittent due to > corrosion. The gimbal can also stick in rough weather and cause a wild > course. Moving the autopilot frees it again and then everything is Ok until > it sticks again. My guess is that if people knew how fragile these flux > sensors were, they would treat their autopilot much more gently. Tiller > pilots are constantly moved a bumped and damaged. Treat them like eggs. > Some cheap boat autopilots used Hall effect transistors instead of flux > sensors since they are cheaper and had no moving parts. I don't think they > had much success since they weren't very sensitive. > > > > If drive transistors fail, I think this is mainly a fault of being > overloaded due to either a hard steering boat or a too small autopilot. > Aside from that, transistor/ FET technology is constantly changing and I > think it is better than it was 15 years ago. I met one marine electronics > tech who had lots of failures when FETs first started being used. With an > autopilot driving a trim tab like on Brent's boats, overloading should never > be a factor. > > > > I have had my tiller pilot apart more than once to fix it. Every single > failure has been corrosion related. It is amazing to me how poorly > engineered a seal on something meant for a boat can be. Hermetically sealed > means plastic on plastic with a bit of crazy glue. You can have all the > technology and sophistication in the world, but if you can't keep the water > out or the little plastic switch doodad breaks, it will fail. I usually buy > "Goop" from the store and with a syringe, put a narrow bead around all case > seals. If you ever need to get it apart, it peals back cleanly. I have > often thought of taking all the guts out of my tiller pilot and mounting it > separately into a Tupperware container. It would probably last a lot > longer. > > > > Connectors on the circuitry in marine electronics are almost always tin or > silver plating and eventually fail. Gold is the standard on aircraft > because it doesn't tarnish. Gold is of course much more expensive. It > seems funny to me that you will have gold contacts in a computer at home but > not in marine electronics where you really need it. Silicone dielectric > grease helps on connectors but only use a thin coating. Never spray WD-40 > or the commercial contact cleaners on anything plastic. Most of the time > they are OK but I have seen some plastics destroyed by products with a > petroleum base like WD-40. I know of one guy who had a Y-valve on his head > fall apart after soaking it in WD-40. It just crumbled and could have sunk > his boat. > > > > If an autopilot goes nuts because of a ship going close by, it is almost > certainly a radio wave phenomenon rather than a magnetic one. Boat wiring > acts like a great antenna for RF energy from a transmitter. My bet is the > ship was transmitting on a powerful radio or the ships radar was screwing > the autopilot up. It happened to a civilian helicopter in the past where > the autopilot lost control when it was painted by a military radar. They > redesigned all the wiring with double shielded wire on later helicopters in > the critical systems and solved the problem. My autopilot would always go > nuts when I transmitted on my SSB radio. There was not much I could do so > just learned to turn it off and drift if I wanted to talk to someone. To > properly shield electronics from RF energy is tricky and expensive and > seldom done since it adds so much to the cost. It's possible almost every > boat would have to be rewired if they tested them and regulated them the way > they test aircraft. I don't think I want to go there. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19711|19711|2009-02-13 15:52:59|Martin Demers|dog aboard????|someone want to give me a nice female rotweiler, I would bring the dog with me most of the time including on my boat, since I never brought a dog on a boat, specially a big dog like that, I would need advice from people who did it. I wonder if it is something current or if it brings to much trouble. now it is winter around here so I cannot just give it a try with the dog aboard the boat, I wont be able to do that before summer and I dont want to accept the dog now and realize later that it was not a good idea to have a dog on my boat. Martin.| 19712|19711|2009-02-13 16:13:55|Ben Okopnik|Re: dog aboard????|On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 08:52:57PM -0000, Martin Demers wrote: > someone want to give me a nice female rotweiler, I would bring the > dog with me most of the time including on my boat, since I never > brought a dog on a boat, specially a big dog like that, I would need > advice from people who did it. I wonder if it is something current or > if it brings to much trouble. now it is winter around here so I cannot > just give it a try with the dog aboard the boat, I wont be able to do > that before summer and I dont want to accept the dog now and realize > later that it was not a good idea to have a dog on my boat. A live-aboard friend here in the anchorage just tried exactly that (well, it was a male rottweiler, but other than that...) It didn't work out - as I'd warned him it wouldn't. He ended up giving the dog away. A big dog - especially a vigorous, active breed like a rottweiler - needs room to run. Not just twice or three times a day, but all day long. On a boat, that dog is going to get progressively more and more anxious, bored, and itchy - and since you're the alpha male in her world, and thus responsible for absolutely everything that's going on, she's going to try changing that, which means wrestling for dominance. RULE #387 OF BASIC SURVIVAL: don't ever play dominance games with a rottweiler. Large-caliber guns exist for a reason. If you want a dog aboard, get a Schipperke. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19713|19711|2009-02-13 18:00:39|martin demers|Re: dog aboard????|What about a Jack Russel? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: ben@...: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:10:21 -0500Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dog aboard???? On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 08:52:57PM -0000, Martin Demers wrote:> someone want to give me a nice female rotweiler, I would bring the > dog with me most of the time including on my boat, since I never > brought a dog on a boat, specially a big dog like that, I would need > advice from people who did it. I wonder if it is something current or > if it brings to much trouble. now it is winter around here so I cannot > just give it a try with the dog aboard the boat, I wont be able to do > that before summer and I dont want to accept the dog now and realize > later that it was not a good idea to have a dog on my boat.A live-aboard friend here in the anchorage just tried exactly that(well, it was a male rottweiler, but other than that...) It didn't workout - as I'd warned him it wouldn't. He ended up giving the dog away.A big dog - especially a vigorous, active breed like a rottweiler -needs room to run. Not just twice or three times a day, but all daylong. On a boat, that dog is going to get progressively more and moreanxious, bored, and itchy - and since you're the alpha male in herworld, and thus responsible for absolutely everything that's going on,she's going to try changing that, which means wrestling for dominance.RULE #387 OF BASIC SURVIVAL: don't ever play dominance games with arottweiler. Large-caliber guns exist for a reason.If you want a dog aboard, get a Schipperke.-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19714|19711|2009-02-13 18:17:21|kingsknight4life|Re: dog aboard????|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 08:52:57PM -0000, Martin Demers wrote someone want to give me a nice female rotweiler, I would bring the dog with me most of the time including on my boat, Thats the right attitude. If you get a dog they NEED to be with you. A good attitude, like yours overcomes lots of so called "problems". " I would need advice from people who did it." We lived for 1 year on a 24 ft boat with Zulu our 90 lb lab cross, it was great. Ben Wrote, "A live-aboard friend here in the anchorage just tried exactly that (well, it was a male rottweiler, but other than that...) It didn't work out - as I'd warned him it wouldn't. He ended up giving the dog away." True it depends on the situaton, the dog and the owner. We met many people in BC with dogs and the ones with the best behaved and probably the happiest dogs didn't always have large yards. In fact it was almost always the exact oppossite. Most people with big yards just "put the dog out" and then ignore it. This will lead to boredome and anxiety on the dogs part, which in turn usualy eads to them eating your stuff. A yard or farm is no replacement for walking/exercising your dog. "A big dog - especially a vigorous, active breed like a rottweiler - needs room to run. Not just twice or three times a day, but all day long. On a boat, that dog is going to get progressively more and more anxious, bored, and itchy -.. " YES (see above) "and since you're the alpha male in her world," (hopefully or things wont work out for either of you) and thus responsible for absolutely everything that's going on, she's going to try changing that, which means wrestling for dominance." NOT exactly true. IF a dog doesn't perceive you as the leader it will try and assume that role, since in a dogs mind there ALWAYS has to be a leader. Can't be apack with out a leader and even dogs that aren't comfortable being leaders will reluctantly assume that role as they are more uncomfortable being leaderless. This DOES NOT mean physical violence however. "RULE #387 OF BASIC SURVIVAL: don't ever play dominance games with a rottweiler. Large-caliber guns exist for a reason." I hope you're joking. I've owned a rotweiller in the past and one of my current dogs is part Rotti. AWESOME dogs and totally misunderstood. They are loyal and can be very laid back, it depends on the dog itself. "If you want a dog aboard, get a Schipperke." LOL Ben do you have a "little boatman"? My nieghbours for over 10 years had 2 schiperkes and initialy I LOATHED those yappy little "kicker dogs". :) I must say however that they grew on me and I ended up becoming a part time babysitter and full time dogwalker to those 2 guys. COOL dogs. Girls always ask about them when you walk them. ; ) They however are not great "boat" dogs in my opinion. The amount of energy they expend would equal that of 4 Rotti's. You could put them on a treadmill and power your boat though. lol If I had a "ship" on the other hand I'd get Schiperkes they could roam the decks and do laps around the ship. Also they would kill all the rats no problem. Think of a cross between a bear cub and a cruise missile or a jack russel in a fur coat. Awesome dogs. * Ben Okopnik * | 19715|19711|2009-02-13 18:24:47|kingsknight4life|Re: dog aboard????|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > What about a Jack Russel? > > > Martin. > >MUCH MUCH WORSE! People assume that small dogs are better for small spaces but it is as a general rule of thumb the exact opposite. Most small dogs require more exercise than larger dogs. This is however a genrality as it is both breed and dog specific. Most Great danes lie around all day and rarely move but dogs like Jack russels are like aerobic instructors on amphetamines. They never stop and if they can't run around they'll amuse them selves by destroying things. Terriers were bred to hunt and they have a high prey drive. The will to hunt, chase and destroy. You need to exercise them alot so that they are too tired to do "what comes naturally" and if you don't they find ways to amuse themseves. Needless to say the ways in which dogs amuse themselves (apart from tail chasing) rarely amuse their owners. Rotti is way better for a small boat than a Jack Russel. Of course this depends on the dog. 15 yr old Jack Russel maybe Lol better than rotti puppy. : ) Rowland| 19716|19711|2009-02-13 18:37:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: dog aboard????|On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 11:17:08PM -0000, kingsknight4life wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > We lived for 1 year on a 24 ft boat with Zulu our 90 lb lab cross, it > was great. Do note that my advice was specifically in regard to rottweilers. They can be great dogs - but without a strong and knowledgeable owner, they cna be an absolute horror story. Much like pit bulls. > and thus responsible for absolutely everything that's going on, > she's going to try changing that, which means wrestling for > dominance." > > NOT exactly true. IF a dog doesn't perceive you as the leader it will > try and assume that role, since in a dogs mind there ALWAYS has to be > a leader. Can't be apack with out a leader and even dogs that aren't > comfortable being leaders will reluctantly assume that role as they > are more uncomfortable being leaderless. This DOES NOT mean physical > violence however. Well, true. But none of those behaviors would be comfortable to be around. > "RULE #387 OF BASIC SURVIVAL: don't ever play dominance games with a > rottweiler. Large-caliber guns exist for a reason." > > I hope you're joking. I've owned a rotweiller in the past and one of > my current dogs is part Rotti. AWESOME dogs and totally > misunderstood. They are loyal and can be very laid back, it depends > on the dog itself. [shrug] I'm sure that it's possible for some people - say, professional shark trainers - to have a pet shark and have a great experience with it. That still wouldn't make it safe or even smart for anyone else. I know two people who got chewed to hell and gone by their rottweilers, and I guarantee you that they were praying for a weapon while it was happening. I realize that this is going to set the average dog-lover's hackles on end, but a lot of people who get a dog like an Akita, a pit bull, or a timber shepherd don't have the slightest clue of what they're doing - and keep doing the stupid thing long past the point when they should have gotten rid of the dog. As a result, a lot of people get hurt - and a lot of dogs get killed. It shouldn't happen at all - but in my world, if it does, then I'd rather the dog was dead than the human, stupid as they may have been, end up getting mauled. > "If you want a dog aboard, get a Schipperke." > > LOL Ben do you have a "little boatman"? [smile] No, but if I was going to have a dog aboard, that's what I'd have. > My nieghbours for over 10 > years had 2 schiperkes and initialy I LOATHED those yappy > little "kicker dogs". :) I must say however that they grew on me and > I ended up becoming a part time babysitter and full time dogwalker to > those 2 guys. COOL dogs. Girls always ask about them when you walk > them. ; ) Heh. That's almost exactly my experience with them as well: initially loathed the little yappy suckers (jeez, that hypersonic bark can *hurt!*), but then got to know them and really appreciate their intelligence, cleanliness, and ability to be a good crew member. I still wish they could be taught to be not quite so barky, though. > They however are not great "boat" dogs in my opinion. The amount of > energy they expend would equal that of 4 Rotti's. You could put them > on a treadmill and power your boat though. lol If I had a "ship" on > the other hand I'd get Schiperkes they could roam the decks and do > laps around the ship. Also they would kill all the rats no problem. > Think of a cross between a bear cub and a cruise missile or a jack > russel in a fur coat. Awesome dogs. The three that I've known all lived on board (all different boats) and were very happy; so were the families that had them. One of them used to jump in at the dock and race his owner back to the boat. He could usually beat that 1.5HP motor. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19717|19711|2009-02-13 18:38:46|Ben Okopnik|Re: dog aboard????|On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 11:24:45PM -0000, kingsknight4life wrote: > > small dogs require more exercise than larger dogs. This is however a > genrality as it is both breed and dog specific. Most Great danes lie > around all day and rarely move but dogs like Jack russels are like > aerobic instructors on amphetamines. [LOL] Excellent description. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19718|19711|2009-02-13 19:50:08|mark hamill|Re: dog aboard????|Another thing to note is that some dogs for example MY wifes born on the land and never been aboard a boat dog is a true chicken of the sea and spends every moment on board shaking with fear. Which is unpleasant for the pooch and owner. I stare whistfully at boats with dogs and cats (together no less) gamboling about assisting with the ships routine and bounding fearlessly/ecstatically into the tender for trips to shore. Cat running along the gunnels and sitting on the bow like a figurehead staring at the bow wave. Well at least my dog has meaty haunches should we ever get into a survival situation--although Polly says I'd be going first.| 19719|19698|2009-02-14 06:38:30|brianchabassol|Re: Dove 3 Steering arrangement|That helps, glad your getting a bit better weather , still frozen solid here. As for my mast I knew I was being posted and tried to sell/give it away, word of mouth buy and sell, no takers. Broke my heart but it went to Walkers last summer as it was to big to go on the truck.I have a pile of Sitka here so the new mast will be spruce as is the boom. I sold my little yanmar to a guy in Powell river so I wouldent have to drag it across the country either. Going to break down and buy a new Betamarine, the price is reasonable i guess for a new deisel. Take care Brian --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > To use the windvane you have to disconnect the inside steering , by > simply lifting the linkage out of the trimtab tiller. > It is getting springlike here, sunny but slighly cool, near 0 at > night and plus 8 in the daytime. > If you are building back there , how do you plan to get your mast > back there? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" > wrote: > > > > Hi Brent > > Thanks for the fast reply, I was wondering also if I go with the > > jogstick does the wind vane has enough power to overcome the > friction > > from the linkage in the jogstick assembly, or would the jogstick > have > > to be disconnected at the top of the trim tab when the vane was > being > > used? Hows the weather back home ? > > Thanks > > Brian > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Jack did a circumnavigatioin with that rig . Said it takes 8 > knots > > > of wind to work well ,Andy said the same after a Pacific > > > circumnavigation. The vane in my book works in two knots of > wind. > > > Andy is changing it for the vertical axis one in my book. Steve > > > tried the horizontal axis one , then went for the one in the > book . > > > Said it was less fiddling around to use it. > > > I crossed the Comox bar in a good southeasterly , steering with > > the > > > jog stick arrangement in my book . Hard over to hard over was > a > > > flick of the finger on the jog stick. Glad I didn't have a wheel > to > > > have to pump on and be constantly wondering where the rudder > was > > > pointed. I started with a wheel. Going from that to the jog > stick > > > was like going from the stone age to the space age. Even > > > supertankers have replaced the wheel with jog sticks. You won't > > find > > > a wheel on any new ones. The QE2 doesn't have a wheel, only jog > > > sticks. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Just wondering if anyone out there has had an oppertunity to > see > > > the > > > > steering arangement of Dove 3. From the photos I have seen it > is > > a > > > rope > > > > and pulley affair to the rudder, I dont see a trim tab. I was > > > wondering > > > > if this arrangement has been used sucessfully with a trim tab > and > > > if it > > > > would still be possible to hook an auto helm to the wheel. I > > think > > > > Brents jog stick arrangement would be easier but Im an > aircraft > > > > mechanic and we seem to like things a bit complex. Plus I like > > the > > > idea > > > > of sitting at the helm with a real wheel ,coffee in hand > > listening > > > to > > > > my music and the rain falling , better put another log in the > > > stove its > > > > getting chilly. > > > > Thanks > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > | 19720|19676|2009-02-14 11:52:03|buckrogers1234|Re: Homicidal autopilots|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > Paul: In my BS36 I have my tiller pilot mounted inside the pilot house and its mounted in a fore and aft direction, rather than port stbd, and seems to work fine. Sometimes it will go a bit off after making several course changes with the buttons. Brian > Brent, do you have the tillerpilot mounted below? I am wondering how well > it steers the boat if mounted down there. I am redoing my stern pulpit and > will be adding the cable. My copy of your book is a first edition and is > missing most of the "extras". I should buy a new copy, I guess. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:15 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Homicidal autopilots > > > > Most autopilots fill with water at the first oportunity, despite > their claims of being waterproof. This is a good reason to locate > them belowdecks, operated via the trimtab, as I have shown in my > book . This drastically reduces corrosion too. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Paul Wilson" > wrote: > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > I have repaired quite a few autopilots over the years both on fish > boats and > > on aircraft since it was my job. A common failure on a boat is > the wires to > > the flux sensor. If you saw one apart, a flux sensor is a very > fine coil on > > a gimbal assembly. The wires are extremely small (not much larger > than a > > hair) since there are many turns in the windings in order to get > the > > sensitivity to pick up the earth's magnetic field. Because > these wires > > are always flexing, they eventually can break or go intermittent > due to > > corrosion. The gimbal can also stick in rough weather and cause a > wild > > course. Moving the autopilot frees it again and then everything > is Ok until > > it sticks again. My guess is that if people knew how fragile > these flux > > sensors were, they would treat their autopilot much more gently. > Tiller > > pilots are constantly moved a bumped and damaged. Treat them like > eggs. > > Some cheap boat autopilots used Hall effect transistors instead of > flux > > sensors since they are cheaper and had no moving parts. I don't > think they > > had much success since they weren't very sensitive. > > > > > > > > If drive transistors fail, I think this is mainly a fault of being > > overloaded due to either a hard steering boat or a too small > autopilot. > > Aside from that, transistor/ FET technology is constantly changing > and I > > think it is better than it was 15 years ago. I met one marine > electronics > > tech who had lots of failures when FETs first started being used. > With an > > autopilot driving a trim tab like on Brent's boats, overloading > should never > > be a factor. > > > > > > > > I have had my tiller pilot apart more than once to fix it. Every > single > > failure has been corrosion related. It is amazing to me how poorly > > engineered a seal on something meant for a boat can be. > Hermetically sealed > > means plastic on plastic with a bit of crazy glue. You can have > all the > > technology and sophistication in the world, but if you can't keep > the water > > out or the little plastic switch doodad breaks, it will fail. I > usually buy > > "Goop" from the store and with a syringe, put a narrow bead around > all case > > seals. If you ever need to get it apart, it peals back cleanly. > I have > > often thought of taking all the guts out of my tiller pilot and > mounting it > > separately into a Tupperware container. It would probably last a > lot > > longer. > > > > > > > > Connectors on the circuitry in marine electronics are almost > always tin or > > silver plating and eventually fail. Gold is the standard on > aircraft > > because it doesn't tarnish. Gold is of course much more > expensive. It > > seems funny to me that you will have gold contacts in a computer > at home but > > not in marine electronics where you really need it. Silicone > dielectric > > grease helps on connectors but only use a thin coating. Never > spray WD-40 > > or the commercial contact cleaners on anything plastic. Most of > the time > > they are OK but I have seen some plastics destroyed by products > with a > > petroleum base like WD-40. I know of one guy who had a Y-valve on > his head > > fall apart after soaking it in WD-40. It just crumbled and could > have sunk > > his boat. > > > > > > > > If an autopilot goes nuts because of a ship going close by, it is > almost > > certainly a radio wave phenomenon rather than a magnetic one. > Boat wiring > > acts like a great antenna for RF energy from a transmitter. My > bet is the > > ship was transmitting on a powerful radio or the ships radar was > screwing > > the autopilot up. It happened to a civilian helicopter in the > past where > > the autopilot lost control when it was painted by a military > radar. They > > redesigned all the wiring with double shielded wire on later > helicopters in > > the critical systems and solved the problem. My autopilot would > always go > > nuts when I transmitted on my SSB radio. There was not much I > could do so > > just learned to turn it off and drift if I wanted to talk to > someone. To > > properly shield electronics from RF energy is tricky and expensive > and > > seldom done since it adds so much to the cost. It's possible > almost every > > boat would have to be rewired if they tested them and regulated > them the way > > they test aircraft. I don't think I want to go there. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19721|19721|2009-02-14 12:54:23|nikitodd|Sources/Prices/Suggestions for Steel?|Hi all, Looking to start a 36' hull soon -- my sense is that steel prices are continuing to drop. I am going to get some quotes on a steel package for the hull using the materials list in the "files" section. Please indulge me with four questions: 1. What specification should I use for the primed plate that Brent specs in his book -- how do I ask for this particular material from AJ Forsyth so that they will know what I am talking about? 2. Is the pre-primed material still worthwhile, or should I look at raw hot-rolled plate and plan on sandblasting it myself? 3. Are there other suppliers that I should look into in the mid- island area? 4. Are there any additions or revisions to the materials list in the "files" section that you would recommend when getting a quote for materials? Thanks in advance, all! -Todd| 19722|19721|2009-02-14 14:30:34|brentswain38|Re: Sources/Prices/Suggestions for Steel?|Wheelabraded and pre primed with a cold galv primer is well worth the price. Sandblasting is a huge pain in the ass and you are unlikely to get it anywhere near as clean. Ordinary mild steel is all you need. Will you be building in the Comox Valley? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nikitodd" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Looking to start a 36' hull soon -- my sense is that steel prices > are continuing to drop. > > I am going to get some quotes on a steel package for the hull using > the materials list in the "files" section. Please indulge me with > four questions: > > 1. What specification should I use for the primed plate that Brent > specs in his book -- how do I ask for this particular material from > AJ Forsyth so that they will know what I am talking about? > > 2. Is the pre-primed material still worthwhile, or should I look at > raw hot-rolled plate and plan on sandblasting it myself? > > 3. Are there other suppliers that I should look into in the mid- > island area? > > 4. Are there any additions or revisions to the materials list in > the "files" section that you would recommend when getting a quote > for materials? > > Thanks in advance, all! > > -Todd > | 19723|19676|2009-02-14 14:32:14|brentswain38|Re: Homicidal autopilots|Yes it's below and no one has had any problem with it below. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Brent, do you have the tillerpilot mounted below? I am wondering how well > it steers the boat if mounted down there. I am redoing my stern pulpit and > will be adding the cable. My copy of your book is a first edition and is > missing most of the "extras". I should buy a new copy, I guess. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:15 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Homicidal autopilots > > > > Most autopilots fill with water at the first oportunity, despite > their claims of being waterproof. This is a good reason to locate > them belowdecks, operated via the trimtab, as I have shown in my > book . This drastically reduces corrosion too. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Paul Wilson" > wrote: > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > I have repaired quite a few autopilots over the years both on fish > boats and > > on aircraft since it was my job. A common failure on a boat is > the wires to > > the flux sensor. If you saw one apart, a flux sensor is a very > fine coil on > > a gimbal assembly. The wires are extremely small (not much larger > than a > > hair) since there are many turns in the windings in order to get > the > > sensitivity to pick up the earth's magnetic field. Because > these wires > > are always flexing, they eventually can break or go intermittent > due to > > corrosion. The gimbal can also stick in rough weather and cause a > wild > > course. Moving the autopilot frees it again and then everything > is Ok until > > it sticks again. My guess is that if people knew how fragile > these flux > > sensors were, they would treat their autopilot much more gently. > Tiller > > pilots are constantly moved a bumped and damaged. Treat them like > eggs. > > Some cheap boat autopilots used Hall effect transistors instead of > flux > > sensors since they are cheaper and had no moving parts. I don't > think they > > had much success since they weren't very sensitive. > > > > > > > > If drive transistors fail, I think this is mainly a fault of being > > overloaded due to either a hard steering boat or a too small > autopilot. > > Aside from that, transistor/ FET technology is constantly changing > and I > > think it is better than it was 15 years ago. I met one marine > electronics > > tech who had lots of failures when FETs first started being used. > With an > > autopilot driving a trim tab like on Brent's boats, overloading > should never > > be a factor. > > > > > > > > I have had my tiller pilot apart more than once to fix it. Every > single > > failure has been corrosion related. It is amazing to me how poorly > > engineered a seal on something meant for a boat can be. > Hermetically sealed > > means plastic on plastic with a bit of crazy glue. You can have > all the > > technology and sophistication in the world, but if you can't keep > the water > > out or the little plastic switch doodad breaks, it will fail. I > usually buy > > "Goop" from the store and with a syringe, put a narrow bead around > all case > > seals. If you ever need to get it apart, it peals back cleanly. > I have > > often thought of taking all the guts out of my tiller pilot and > mounting it > > separately into a Tupperware container. It would probably last a > lot > > longer. > > > > > > > > Connectors on the circuitry in marine electronics are almost > always tin or > > silver plating and eventually fail. Gold is the standard on > aircraft > > because it doesn't tarnish. Gold is of course much more > expensive. It > > seems funny to me that you will have gold contacts in a computer > at home but > > not in marine electronics where you really need it. Silicone > dielectric > > grease helps on connectors but only use a thin coating. Never > spray WD-40 > > or the commercial contact cleaners on anything plastic. Most of > the time > > they are OK but I have seen some plastics destroyed by products > with a > > petroleum base like WD-40. I know of one guy who had a Y-valve on > his head > > fall apart after soaking it in WD-40. It just crumbled and could > have sunk > > his boat. > > > > > > > > If an autopilot goes nuts because of a ship going close by, it is > almost > > certainly a radio wave phenomenon rather than a magnetic one. > Boat wiring > > acts like a great antenna for RF energy from a transmitter. My > bet is the > > ship was transmitting on a powerful radio or the ships radar was > screwing > > the autopilot up. It happened to a civilian helicopter in the > past where > > the autopilot lost control when it was painted by a military > radar. They > > redesigned all the wiring with double shielded wire on later > helicopters in > > the critical systems and solved the problem. My autopilot would > always go > > nuts when I transmitted on my SSB radio. There was not much I > could do so > > just learned to turn it off and drift if I wanted to talk to > someone. To > > properly shield electronics from RF energy is tricky and expensive > and > > seldom done since it adds so much to the cost. It's possible > almost every > > boat would have to be rewired if they tested them and regulated > them the way > > they test aircraft. I don't think I want to go there. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19724|19721|2009-02-14 16:36:15|nikitodd|Re: Sources/Prices/Suggestions for Steel?|Hi Brent, Thanks for your reply. Yes, I will be building at my house in the Dove Cr. area. I recently picked up your book from your father -- please thank him for me when you see him! I haven't gotten a quote yet, but I will start with AJ Forsyth in C.R. Can I assume they should know what I am talking about if I request the plate be "wheelabraded / primed with cold galvanizing primer"? Any other suggestions for materials suppiers? Thanks, --Todd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Wheelabraded and pre primed with a cold galv primer is well worth the > price. Sandblasting is a huge pain in the ass and you are unlikely to > get it anywhere near as clean. Ordinary mild steel is all you need. > Will you be building in the Comox Valley? > Brent | 19725|19721|2009-02-14 18:21:21|Carl Anderson|Re: Sources/Prices/Suggestions for Steel?|Todd, They should know what you are talking about. I bought all my steel from AJ Foresyth (in Nanaimo) and had it abraded & primed. (which is done on the mainland) Be sure to have a look at the movie by Alex Christie showing Brent building the hull as it will save you a bunch of time figuring things out. You also might want to look at the photo cd that I have put together. Just a thought about having as much info as possible regarding building the hull. Carl SV-MOM.com nikitodd wrote: > > > Hi Brent, > > Thanks for your reply. > > Yes, I will be building at my house in the Dove Cr. area. I recently > picked up your book from your father -- please thank him for me when > you see him! > > I haven't gotten a quote yet, but I will start with AJ Forsyth in > C.R. Can I assume they should know what I am talking about if I > request the plate be "wheelabraded / primed with cold galvanizing > primer"? > > Any other suggestions for materials suppiers? > > Thanks, > > --Todd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Wheelabraded and pre primed with a cold galv primer is well worth > the > > price. Sandblasting is a huge pain in the ass and you are unlikely > to > > get it anywhere near as clean. Ordinary mild steel is all you > need. > > Will you be building in the Comox Valley? > > Brent > > | 19726|19721|2009-02-14 19:49:09|brentswain38|Re: Sources/Prices/Suggestions for Steel?|That green primer made by Devoe also works well. Avoid vinyl primers like International Nu plate F, the red or blue stuff. Nothing sticks to it. Bear in mind wheter the rprice includes delivery. With Forsyth it usually does, with other suppliers it usually doesn't. That can make a big difference in the final price. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nikitodd" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Thanks for your reply. > > Yes, I will be building at my house in the Dove Cr. area. I recently > picked up your book from your father -- please thank him for me when > you see him! > > I haven't gotten a quote yet, but I will start with AJ Forsyth in > C.R. Can I assume they should know what I am talking about if I > request the plate be "wheelabraded / primed with cold galvanizing > primer"? > > Any other suggestions for materials suppiers? > > > Thanks, > > --Todd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Wheelabraded and pre primed with a cold galv primer is well worth > the > > price. Sandblasting is a huge pain in the ass and you are unlikely > to > > get it anywhere near as clean. Ordinary mild steel is all you > need. > > Will you be building in the Comox Valley? > > Brent > | 19727|19727|2009-02-14 20:41:21|mickeyolaf|Single Spreader Rigs|I just finished a book by a 150,000 mile circumnavigator. One of his points/comments that caught my attention was; "Double spreader rigs are inherently more seaworthy than single spreader supported masts. Assuming that the structural loads are equally spread, the double spreader rig offers more of a chance of saving the spar in the event of a rigging failure. With a single spreader rig, if you loose a shroud it's almost certain the spar will be lost." Interesting observation since most of us have gone single spreader on our Swains.| 19728|19728|2009-02-14 21:49:41|brentswain38|Composting head dimensions|I just cecked the dimensions for the composter head top. The bowl is 4 1/2 inches deep at the front and 3 1/2 inches deep at the back. It is 8 inches wide by 11 inches long. The outside dimensions for the seat are 12 inches wide by 14 1/2 inches long. The Conservative birth canal is 4 inches diameter and 2 inches from the back of the bowl. The liquids drain is one inch diameter. The lip around the Conservative birth canal is 3/4 inch high. Taking a stainless 8 inch mixing bowl and laying up a fibreglas bowl inside it, cutting the FG bowl in half and laying up an extra 3 inch wide strip joining the two halves should give you the right dimensions for the bowl , either for the bowl or the mold . Cutting it for the right depth at both ends lets you put it on a board and put the raised lip around the ends , and the tory bith canal for the full mold. I think that the idea of a rotary mold is far too expensive when compared to fibreglas molded heads. I think this could become a cottage industry for anyone who wants to mold the parts and sell them to anyone wanting to build their own composter, with vet y little invested.. It could be done for a fraction the cost of Airheads or Natures head, without the need for the Chinese. The lower price should increase the demand exponentialy. Some have said that the musty smell makes you unpopular in marinas, but I think one could weld in a box on the vent pipe into which one could insert one of those deoderisers you see in urinals ( the ones responsible for the grafitti saying "Don't eat the big blue cookie). This could be easily replaced from time to time and the vent air would blow past it without retriction. I have found that when the anerobic bacteria takes over and things get smelly, adding a package of sanibac septic tank bacteria eliminates the anerobic smelly bacterial quickly. The lid could be one from an existing head as you won't get anythingfor your used head anyway, or a plyuwood one could be easily made up. A plastic 2 inch ID thru hull could be the vent outlet. Brent| 19729|19701|2009-02-14 22:35:05|Alan H. Boucher|Re: Home Depot Panel-frp Panel|Really good panels. They are thermoplastic probably a modified acrylic. I've used them for bathrooms in rental apartments using panel adhesive to fasten them to the walls. The material seems to be very chip and crack resistant. HD also has a variety of edge trims available. What convinced me to use these panels is that the HD I was in had used them in their bathrooms and they appeared to be standing up very well. Depending on your sense of aesthetics they could work as headliner as well as head and closet liners. I am working on a 38" Irwin that has the material in the heads. I have repainted some of the panels with Imron with just a scotchbrite scuffing first. We will see how well that stands up. dbourg2002 wrote: > > I was down to Home Depot last night and as I was wandering around > spotted some thin panels made of frp that looked to me like they might > have some application for interiors. They were extremely strong and > only about 1/8" thick. They also had not to bad a pattern on them, > something like little bumps like the ceiling panels for houses they > sell. They were a bit pricey at $45/4 X * sheet but they look like they > would be puncture proof and you could probably make them removeable. > Might be good for the interior of the head as well. > > If you go down there they might be worth checking out. > > Don > > (Winnipeg, nowwhere near any serious water !) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19730|19728|2009-02-14 22:42:55|Donal Philby|Re: Composting head dimensions|I realized that in the discussion of composters no mention was made of the most expensive version, with models for boats and RVs, Sun-Mar. It loads everything together and dehydrates all, so works best with some electric heat and fan. But waste goes into a round horizontal pivoting basket with a gate. As the waste dries it falls into a drawer in the bottom as you spin the barrel. Pretty slick. They make a whole line of composting toilet systems even for multi-story houses. While it may not appeal to the budget conscious cruisers, it is what most of the whole world is going to have to begin using, given the increasing population pressures, the expanding droughts and ever more depleted soils. Most of Sun-Mar's business is in the third world, but what a difference it would make in Los Angeles, for instance, or even Nanaimo and Victoria, so the only waste dumping into the Strait of Georgia would be gray water. If yachties have to do their part, then... donal| 19731|19728|2009-02-14 23:13:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: Composting head dimensions|On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 10:42:53PM -0500, Donal Philby wrote: > I realized that in the discussion of composters no mention was made of > the most expensive version, with models for boats and RVs, Sun-Mar. > It loads everything together and dehydrates all, so works best with > some electric heat and fan. But waste goes into a round horizontal > pivoting basket with a gate. As the waste dries it falls into a > drawer in the bottom as you spin the barrel. Pretty slick. They make > a whole line of composting toilet systems even for multi-story houses. > While it may not appeal to the budget conscious cruisers, it is what > most of the whole world is going to have to begin using, given the > increasing population pressures, the expanding droughts and ever more > depleted soils. Most of Sun-Mar's business is in the third world, but > what a difference it would make in Los Angeles, for instance, or even > Nanaimo and Victoria, so the only waste dumping into the Strait of > Georgia would be gray water. If yachties have to do their part, > then... As I recall, these units draw on the order of 2kW *per day*. Not something the average boater can do, other than running a generator every day. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19732|19728|2009-02-15 00:37:30|brentswain38|Re: Composting head dimensions|The Air head and Natures head method of separating solids from liquids made the Sun mar as outdated and obselete as dinosaurs. They tried them at the government dock in Heriot bay and they turned out to be disasters. They are also extremely bulky, and far too big for a boat. The Natures head and airhead are almost as compact as a marine head, and far lighter. The sun mar is huge , many times the size and weight of a standard marine head. The will quickly go the way of the dodo bird. With more practical options, they make no sense for a boat. For the bucket in a composting head, my 12 inch by 11 inch one could use an extra inch of height, but while the standard plastic bucket is a bit smaller , they are everywhere for free, and for that reason make a lot of sense. You could put a block of half inch plastic, pop riveted on, to reinforce where the shit disturber runs thru the side of the bucket, and without the hole in the bucket on the side opposite the handle. One could use the full height of the bucket and cut a hollow out of one side to let the foreward end of the fibreglass top sit in . One could cut this hollow a bit small then warm the edges up till they get soft and force the top in for a perfect molded fit. Then the seat would sit on the original top of the bucket. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 10:42:53PM -0500, Donal Philby wrote: > > I realized that in the discussion of composters no mention was made of > > the most expensive version, with models for boats and RVs, Sun- Mar. > > It loads everything together and dehydrates all, so works best with > > some electric heat and fan. But waste goes into a round horizontal > > pivoting basket with a gate. As the waste dries it falls into a > > drawer in the bottom as you spin the barrel. Pretty slick. They make > > a whole line of composting toilet systems even for multi-story houses. > > While it may not appeal to the budget conscious cruisers, it is what > > most of the whole world is going to have to begin using, given the > > increasing population pressures, the expanding droughts and ever more > > depleted soils. Most of Sun-Mar's business is in the third world, but > > what a difference it would make in Los Angeles, for instance, or even > > Nanaimo and Victoria, so the only waste dumping into the Strait of > > Georgia would be gray water. If yachties have to do their part, > > then... > > As I recall, these units draw on the order of 2kW *per day*. Not > something the average boater can do, other than running a generator > every day. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19733|19727|2009-02-15 00:42:58|brentswain38|Re: Single Spreader Rigs|Double spreader rigs give better support athwartships , but unless you have another lower intermediate shroud leading to the base of the intermediate shrouds , they have less fore and aft support. They are primarily for narrow boats with not enough beam to give adequate angles for a single set of spreaders. More bits and pieces mean more potential places for failures. The use of galv instead of stainless dratically reduces the chance of metal fatigue failures, the main cause of rigging fauilures with stainless. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I just finished a book by a 150,000 mile circumnavigator. One of his > points/comments that caught my attention was; > > "Double spreader rigs are inherently more seaworthy than single > spreader supported masts. Assuming that the structural loads are > equally spread, the double spreader rig offers more of a chance of > saving the spar in the event of a rigging failure. With a single > spreader rig, if you loose a shroud it's almost certain the spar will > be lost." > > Interesting observation since most of us have gone single spreader on > our Swains. > | 19734|19728|2009-02-15 23:05:22|lachica31|Re: Composting head dimensions|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just cecked the dimensions for the composter head top. The bowl > is 4 1/2 inches deep at the front and 3 1/2 inches deep at the back. > It is 8 inches wide by 11 inches long. The outside dimensions for > the seat are 12 inches wide by 14 1/2 inches long. The Conservative > birth canal is 4 inches diameter and 2 inches from the back of the > bowl. The liquids drain is one inch diameter. The lip around the > Thanks Brent, the above was really useful. Paul Thompson| 19735|19735|2009-02-15 23:23:17|lachica31|Glass Pilothouse Ports|Hi Brent (and anyone else), I believe that you said in an earlier post that you put glass over the front ports of your pilothouse. If so how did you attach them? I am seriously considering putting glass in my ones but as I originally planed on using acrylic, I did not put recessed frames in but just intended to fasten them to the outside in the normal manner (ie. with neoprene gasket and sealant as described in your book). I have spoken to National Glass (the local outfit), they say it is OK to just use one of their fancy sealants to glue the glass on. When I demured and said I could not just depend on the adhesive, they said that I could add fasteners to the mix but must use plastic inserts (sounds reasonable) and that the hole must be at least the same diameter as the thickness of the glass. The glass being of cause there super duper toughened stuff :-) . They have suggested 10mm thickness. What did you do? What do you guys on the list think? Paul Thompson| 19736|19735|2009-02-16 00:20:14|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Glass Pilothouse Ports|This has come up in many places. The common wisdom, and practice, seems to be to just glue it on. Apparently, they do it like this commercially, even on the superyachts. If they are not worried about it ... BTW- Whats the glass cost over there, and is it per square meter ? What about thicker ones re: cost and availability ? lachica31 wrote: > > Hi Brent (and anyone else), > > I believe that you said in an earlier post that you put glass over the > front ports of your pilothouse. > > If so how did you attach them? I am seriously considering putting > glass in my ones but as I originally planed on using acrylic, I did > not put recessed frames in but just intended to fasten them to the > outside in the normal manner (ie. with neoprene gasket and sealant as > described in your book). > > I have spoken to National Glass (the local outfit), they say it is OK > to just use one of their fancy sealants to glue the glass on. When I > demured and said I could not just depend on the adhesive, they said > that I could add fasteners to the mix but must use plastic inserts > (sounds reasonable) and that the hole must be at least the same > diameter as the thickness of the glass. The glass being of cause there > super duper toughened stuff :-) . They have suggested 10mm thickness. > > What did you do? What do you guys on the list think? > > Paul Thompson > > > | 19737|19737|2009-02-16 01:48:31|vowfdfhg|I want to meet you. Give me a chance!|I want to meet you. Give me a chance! Click here to chat with me online: http://krrfeee.zoomshare.com/files/chat.htm| 19738|19661|2009-02-16 02:03:39|dejongralph|Re: Leading edges keels 31|Okey got it, thanks, Ralph --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > A bit big, but they will work. Keep in mind that if you draw a line > thru them horizontaly when they are on the boat, you get an elipse, > much sharper on the leading edge than the three inch cut > horizontally when it is vertical. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" > wrote: > > > > Okey, so no ss bars. > > At work there are 3"(80mm)mildsteal bars. Are they to big to get > > the proper wing shape? > > > > Thanks, > > Ralph > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Diameter , no problem. Stainless, big problem. A small amount of > > > stainless attached to a huge amount of mild steel below the > > waterline > > > will cause no serious problem. That much stainless will eat > the > > mild > > > steel next to it. > > > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > I found a solid SS rod diameter 45mm (more or less 1 3/4"). I > > thought > > > > of using it as leding edge for the keels, but: > > > > -- 45mm instead of 50mm (2") > > > > -- SS instead of mild steal > corrosion > > > > -- ..... > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > I found a solid mildsteel bar with diameter 80mm. Is this > > better or > > > > to big. > > > > > > > > What do experts say? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ralph > > > > > > > > > > | 19739|19739|2009-02-16 02:52:35|heretic_37ft|Double Spreader Rigs|There is always a better way. It costs more, but you emulate the monarchs of sailing. You feel good, almost superior. But, then you find you have spent so much money trying, it is cheaper just to get a powerboat. Case in point: Steve and Linda Dashew, giving up on their grandeur boats and using two dirt cheap diesels to ride around on. -- The Heretic| 19740|19740|2009-02-16 02:58:34|kaviyhak|free diet plan and top 10 weight loss tips|free diet plan and top 10 weight loss tips http://weightlossdiettips-magha.blogspot.com aerobic training http://aerobictraining-nn.blogspot.com glorious sports shoes http://sportsshoes-nn.blogspot.com A GLOBAL HOME BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY http://www.moreinfo247.com/10216601/CB Home appliances at low prices, buy at the best prices Appliance Guide http://homeappliances-22.blogspot.com http://homeappliances-nn.blogspot.com| 19741|19740|2009-02-16 02:58:38|kaviyhak|free diet plan and top 10 weight loss tips|free diet plan and top 10 weight loss tips http://weightlossdiettips-magha.blogspot.com aerobic training http://aerobictraining-nn.blogspot.com glorious sports shoes http://sportsshoes-nn.blogspot.com A GLOBAL HOME BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY http://www.moreinfo247.com/10216601/CB Home appliances at low prices, buy at the best prices Appliance Guide http://homeappliances-22.blogspot.com http://homeappliances-nn.blogspot.com| 19742|19740|2009-02-16 02:58:38|kaviyhak|free diet plan and top 10 weight loss tips|free diet plan and top 10 weight loss tips http://weightlossdiettips-magha.blogspot.com aerobic training http://aerobictraining-nn.blogspot.com glorious sports shoes http://sportsshoes-nn.blogspot.com A GLOBAL HOME BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY http://www.moreinfo247.com/10216601/CB Home appliances at low prices, buy at the best prices Appliance Guide http://homeappliances-22.blogspot.com http://homeappliances-nn.blogspot.com| 19743|19740|2009-02-16 02:58:42|kaviyhak|free diet plan and top 10 weight loss tips|free diet plan and top 10 weight loss tips http://weightlossdiettips-magha.blogspot.com aerobic training http://aerobictraining-nn.blogspot.com glorious sports shoes http://sportsshoes-nn.blogspot.com A GLOBAL HOME BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY http://www.moreinfo247.com/10216601/CB Home appliances at low prices, buy at the best prices Appliance Guide http://homeappliances-22.blogspot.com http://homeappliances-nn.blogspot.com| 19744|19740|2009-02-16 02:58:47|kaviyhak|free diet plan and top 10 weight loss tips|free diet plan and top 10 weight loss tips http://weightlossdiettips-magha.blogspot.com aerobic training http://aerobictraining-nn.blogspot.com glorious sports shoes http://sportsshoes-nn.blogspot.com A GLOBAL HOME BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY http://www.moreinfo247.com/10216601/CB Home appliances at low prices, buy at the best prices Appliance Guide http://homeappliances-22.blogspot.com http://homeappliances-nn.blogspot.com| 19745|19739|2009-02-16 03:41:30|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|Well ... for the Dashews, as they themselves have said, are getting old(er) and the boat is not exactly cheap at 6M$ ... Their boat and filosophy is exactly what I think and appreciate, and thats the kind of boat I want to retire on ... only cheaper. Long, slim, efficient, no extra cabins. And they have shown very well why cruising in a powerboat is cheaper than in a sailboat. Cheers, Hannu Their heretic_37ft wrote: > > There is always a better way. It costs more, but you emulate the > monarchs of sailing. You feel good, almost superior. But, then you > find you have spent so much money trying, it is cheaper just to get a > powerboat. Case in point: Steve and Linda Dashew, giving up on their > grandeur boats and using two dirt cheap diesels to ride around on. > > -- The Heretic > | 19746|19739|2009-02-16 08:36:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 09:41:24AM +0100, gcode fi (hanermo) wrote: > Well ... for the Dashews, as they themselves have said, > are getting old(er) > and the boat is not exactly cheap at 6M$ ... > > Their boat and filosophy is exactly what I think and appreciate, and > thats the kind of boat I want to retire on ... only cheaper. > Long, slim, efficient, no extra cabins. > > And they have shown very well why cruising in a powerboat is cheaper > than in a sailboat. I've seen the Dashews peddle that line, but it's amazing to me that anybody would actually believe it. Given a powerboat and a sailboat that cost the same amount (i.e., depreciation, etc. are about the same), a thousand miles under sail costs you nothing while covering the same distance under sail costs you a thousand miles worth of fuel. How is this cheaper, again? Sails can be repaired by hand, pretty much anywhere. Sails can be _made,_ if necessary, out of dirt-cheap materials: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytarp_sails You could even carry a replacement kit with you - they take very little space. A $139 kit, for example, would replace all my sails and last several years (according to the Polytarp people, with whom I've exchanged email, there are a couple of sailors on 30+-foot boats who use these; one of them has been using his sails for almost five years now and hasn't had to replace them yet.) The cost of a diesel engine and the associated machinery (and installation!), on the other hand, is always high - and if yours breaks down in some out-of-the-way location, you're completely screwed. How's this cheaper, again? Going on to the specifics, if you search Google for 'powerboat crossing the atlantic' (I won't even mention the Pacific), the only thing you'll find that actually documents such crossings, other than stunts, is a Nordhavn rally - with the smallest boat being a 47-footer. That "little" 47-footer, by the way, carries a *base* price tag of $760,000, meaning that you'll need to add at least a quarter of that price for fitting out, for a cool total of over a million dollars. I also note that they had to stop in either Bermuda, the Azores, or both - no choice about that, as there would be in a sailboat - to refuel. Refilling the 1450 gallon diesel tank on that "little" boat, at $1.65/liter (current prices), would cost over *NINE* *THOUSAND* *DOLLARS*. How's this cheaper, again? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19747|19747|2009-02-16 09:26:07|will jones|Roll and tip painting Insights|Someone had posted a link to a really good site on the restoration of a Tartan 30. The painting section was well worth the read for the info on what mistakes were made and corrections applied. I asked the website owner some questions and here are his replies. These make more sense if you read his website. I think the website and answers are a great insight into working with 2 part paints. > How much could you mix at a time and how many strips could you do? I mixed up a quart at a time, enough to coat the whole hull once. Linear polyurethane paints don't kick in the way epoxies do, so the pot life is quite long and not really an issue. I could take my time and and work the strips all the way up one side and then down the other. That would work out to about 60 strips. > How much room did you leave between strips? About 3/8 to 1/2 inch. > How often did you have to change roller covers? I'm not sure if we are talking about the same kind of foam roller. I used closed cell foam rollers that look like white sausages. They are solid foam except for the tube that the roller axle goes through. One roller would last for one whole coat. > How often did you have to change foam brushes? I used one 4-inch brush per side, usually. Anything smaller than a 4-inch brush is not stiff enough and will soon get all floppy on you. The secret (I found) was to keep the brush as dry as possible by tipping it very lightly - less pressure, more strokes. Pressure is only applied a little when dragging across the gap between strips. > I noticed you were using one of the 8-10" trim type rollers, did you ever > switch to a standard 12" paint roller? The closed-cell rollers I used were only 7 or 8 inches long, none bigger that I could find. I think the small size makes it easier to control. Precision is way more important than speed. > Did you do the 320grit sanding mostly to work on areas that you painted > before you figured it out or just hit it in general due to good painting > practices. That is, using your refined technique, would you do the 320 > grit sanding between each coat? You got me here. I think 320 is what the instructions with the paint recommended, but that's just my vague recollection. This paint is VERY thin and shows scratches, so very fine grit is required. The heavier grits I used were in an attempt to sand out my screw-ups. > About how much paint did you need? 3 quarts, although about an inch remained in the can after each coat. By coat 3 I got wise to that and that last inch has been my touch-up stock ever since. Unmixed it keeps forever without thickening or skimming over. > Do you mind if I post your site and answers to several newsgroups I am on? Not at all. I'm happy to help in any way. When the time comes, let me know how it all turned out. Jeff Stoehr T30 148 Ayacucho http://www.t30makeover.com Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN| 19748|19735|2009-02-16 09:31:12|Shane Duncan|Re: Glass Pilothouse Ports|  About a month ago I saw an aluminium lobster boats (50 foot) That was hit by a huge wave It smashed  buckled and ripped of the top of the pilot house But left the glass still in its frames attached with Sika sealant Impressive --- Make Yahoo!7 your homepage and win a trip to the Quiksilver Pro. Find out more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19749|19735|2009-02-16 09:43:53|Carl Anderson|Re: Glass Pilothouse Ports|That's GREAT info and makes me feel better regarding my choice of using glass & Sika adhesive. Carl SV-MOM.com Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > About a month ago I saw an aluminium lobster boats (50 foot) > That was hit by a huge wave > It smashed buckled and ripped of the top of the pilot house > But left the glass still in its frames attached with Sika sealant > Impressive > > --- > | 19750|19728|2009-02-16 11:37:08|Donal Philby|Re: Composting head dimensions|I brought up Sun-Mar's version of a composting toilet because they certainly got the ball rolling. And their method seems much easier to accept for general home use. And in warm environment--heated house or boat or in the tropics--it doesn't need additional heat. They make two small models specifically for RVs and boats. I've seen them, and talked to a couple of happy owners, and they are nicely engineered. I'd rather have them in a house, simply because they are easier to maintain, having the basket and drawer. They are not obsolete, but serve a different, much larger, market. I've had a couple leisurely conversations with creator of the Airhead. He is an engineer who had a well paying job with industry, but is also a committed environmentalist. He decided to take the plunge and find a way to do his life making something to bring good to the world. It took him quite a while working through various ideas for green products before he had his epiphany over the liquids/solid separation than led to the creation of the Airhead. He has worked for years with little reward to bring the Airhead to market--or perhaps waiting for the market to come to him. It has been a tough sell until recently--hundredth monkey, and all that, and last I heard he was buried in orders. I've had maybe 10 people visit my boat, see the Airhead, ask the right questions, breath the air in the head and decide to order one themselves. Word of nose and mouth. All Nature's head has done has been to change a few things and try to divide up a small market. While I appreciate their efforts and alternative, I wish they had spent the time and brought to market a product that was another leap forward. You can look at them as exorbitantly expensive. But how many years of metal and fiberglass fabrication experience, not to mention natural inclination, to be able to quickly build your own version, using Mr. Airhead's epiphany laid before you. Few people could match you. But your idea to manufacture parts is a good one. Maybe a little unit that would drop onto the top of a five gallon paint bucket. I appreciate all the ideas. Here's another: years ago I remember flying in military transport planes. No head aboard, but on one bulkhead their was always a funnel connected to a tube. Perhaps these days with many more women in the military their are versions for both anatomies. I've seen such products on the market for commuters that get stuck in traffic. Adapted to the boat, this could be nice in rough weather. donal -----Original Message----- >From: brentswain38 >Sent: Feb 14, 2009 9:37 PM >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Composting head dimensions > >The Air head and Natures head method of separating solids from >liquids made the Sun mar as outdated and obselete as dinosaurs. They >tried them at the government dock in Heriot bay and they turned out >to be disasters. They are also extremely bulky, and far too big for >a boat. The Natures head and airhead are almost as compact as a >marine head, and far lighter. The sun mar is huge , many times the >size and weight of a standard marine head. The will quickly go the >way of the dodo bird. With more practical options, they make no >sense for a boat. > For the bucket in a composting head, my 12 inch by 11 inch one >could use an extra inch of height, but while the standard plastic >bucket is a bit smaller , they are everywhere for free, and for that >reason make a lot of sense. You could put a block of half inch >plastic, pop riveted on, to reinforce where the shit disturber runs >thru the side of the bucket, and without the hole in the bucket on >the side opposite the handle. > One could use the full height of the bucket and cut a hollow out of >one side to let the foreward end of the fibreglass top sit in . One >could cut this hollow a bit small then warm the edges up till they >get soft and force the top in for a perfect molded fit. Then the >seat would sit on the original top of the bucket. > Brent > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: >> >> On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 10:42:53PM -0500, Donal Philby wrote: >> > I realized that in the discussion of composters no mention was >made of >> > the most expensive version, with models for boats and RVs, Sun- >Mar. >> > It loads everything together and dehydrates all, so works best >with >> > some electric heat and fan. But waste goes into a round >horizontal >> > pivoting basket with a gate. As the waste dries it falls into a >> > drawer in the bottom as you spin the barrel. Pretty slick. >They make >> > a whole line of composting toilet systems even for multi-story >houses. >> > While it may not appeal to the budget conscious cruisers, it is >what >> > most of the whole world is going to have to begin using, given >the >> > increasing population pressures, the expanding droughts and ever >more >> > depleted soils. Most of Sun-Mar's business is in the third >world, but >> > what a difference it would make in Los Angeles, for instance, or >even >> > Nanaimo and Victoria, so the only waste dumping into the Strait >of >> > Georgia would be gray water. If yachties have to do their part, >> > then... >> >> As I recall, these units draw on the order of 2kW *per day*. Not >> something the average boater can do, other than running a generator >> every day. >> >> >> -- >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * >http://LinuxGazette.NET * >> > > > > >------------------------------------ > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 19751|19728|2009-02-16 12:31:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: Composting head dimensions|On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 02:49:39AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I just cecked the dimensions for the composter head top. The bowl > is 4 1/2 inches deep at the front and 3 1/2 inches deep at the back. > It is 8 inches wide by 11 inches long. The outside dimensions for > the seat are 12 inches wide by 14 1/2 inches long. The Conservative > birth canal is 4 inches diameter and 2 inches from the back of the > bowl. The liquids drain is one inch diameter. The lip around the > Conservative birth canal is 3/4 inch high. I started to follow up to this with my own measurements, and then realized that pictures would also be useful - so I created a web page. While I was at it, I wrote up a bunch of commentary about the Nature's Head, and I'm going to email the NH people with a link to it (maybe they'll get some useful clues out of it.) In any case, here it is, measurements and all: http://okopnik.com/head.html -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19752|19728|2009-02-16 12:57:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: Composting head dimensions|On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 11:37:07AM -0500, Donal Philby wrote: > > You can look at them as exorbitantly expensive. They are. > But how many years of > metal and fiberglass fabrication experience, not to mention natural > inclination, to be able to quickly build your own version, using Mr. > Airhead's epiphany laid before you. I realize this sounds heartless, but why should anyone care about Mr. Airhead's "years of experience" except as a sales point? What I want, when I buy a head, is not "years of experience"; what I want is a well-working head. When Mr. Airhead goes to the market, he's not paying the baker for his years of experience - otherwise, he'd be paying $100/loaf. Might be paying a couple of grand for a pound of meat, too (the rancher, the butcher, the trucker, the supermarket manager, etc...) I'm not just saying this from the consumer perspective, either. I have a lot of years in the computer industry, but if I wasn't able to solve my clients' problems, I'd be tossed out into the street - they wouldn't care about my experience, only about the fact that the problems still exist. If it had taken me ten seconds to get to the high level of expertise that I have, that still wouldn't be any of my clients' business or modify how much they're paying; they pay me to make the problems go away. End of story. Now, if Mr. Airhead is smart enough to capitalize on those years of experience, good for him and more power to him. But if his business model is so bad that he can be knocked out of the market by knockoffs, then his experience isn't doing him much good. > Here's another: years ago I remember flying in military transport > planes. No head aboard, but on one bulkhead their was always a funnel > connected to a tube. Just recently, I was talking to somebody about their multihull; the guy had a hole in one of his cockpit seats, discreetly covered with a neat little removable lid and aiming straight down at the water. Didn't even have to go anywhere when steering in bad weather. Brilliant. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19753|19735|2009-02-16 13:25:30|brentswain38|Re: Glass Pilothouse Ports|I didn't have recessed ports so I put a stainless angle 5/8th inch by 1 inch by 1/8th inch, top and botom with the 5/8th leg down and the 1 inch pressing on the edge of the glass with screws about a half inch in on the 1 inch leg , against the edge of the glass. I put a rubber strip with bedding between the glass and the angle as well as between the glass and the steel. Works well and it let me put a hand operated wiper on, a huge advantage in rainy weather. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > Hi Brent (and anyone else), > > I believe that you said in an earlier post that you put glass over the > front ports of your pilothouse. > > If so how did you attach them? I am seriously considering putting > glass in my ones but as I originally planed on using acrylic, I did > not put recessed frames in but just intended to fasten them to the > outside in the normal manner (ie. with neoprene gasket and sealant as > described in your book). > > I have spoken to National Glass (the local outfit), they say it is OK > to just use one of their fancy sealants to glue the glass on. When I > demured and said I could not just depend on the adhesive, they said > that I could add fasteners to the mix but must use plastic inserts > (sounds reasonable) and that the hole must be at least the same > diameter as the thickness of the glass. The glass being of cause there > super duper toughened stuff :-) . They have suggested 10mm thickness. > > What did you do? What do you guys on the list think? > > Paul Thompson > | 19754|19739|2009-02-16 13:39:42|brentswain38|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|The mainsail that I bought for $100 almost 30 years ago is on its last legs. It has taken me for 9 trips to the Charllotes and back , one to Mexico and back, and two trips to Tonga and back to BC, and 25 years of cruising 11 months a year . . What does that work out in miles per gallon or dollars per mile. What would those same trips have cost in fuel to motor? So now the Dashews say that motoring is cheaper than sailing . What total elitist bullshit. I guess if you insist on the super expensive, brand new ,off the shelf gear that they insist on , sailing can be very expensive, but few of the cruisers I meet out there could ever dream of using the gear and expensive cruising the Dashews do, few are that dense, and few would have gone anywhere if they had bought that kind of bullshit. Few would have cruised anywhere with that kind of unimaginitive lack of resourcefulness. I left Frisco for New Zealand on my first boat with $350 in my pocket. How much fuel would that have bought? It is sad that some will be discouraged from even trying to get out cruising by Dashews elitist propaganda, believing that the only way one can go cruising is with a huge pile of money. I hear he is writing a new book called " How to cruise on $10,000 a day." Such a deal!! Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > > Well ... for the Dashews, as they themselves have said, > are getting old(er) > and the boat is not exactly cheap at 6M$ ... > > Their boat and filosophy is exactly what I think and appreciate, and > thats the kind of boat I want to retire on ... only cheaper. > Long, slim, efficient, no extra cabins. > > And they have shown very well why cruising in a powerboat is cheaper > than in a sailboat. > Cheers, > Hannu > > Their > heretic_37ft wrote: > > > > There is always a better way. It costs more, but you emulate the > > monarchs of sailing. You feel good, almost superior. But, then you > > find you have spent so much money trying, it is cheaper just to get a > > powerboat. Case in point: Steve and Linda Dashew, giving up on their > > grandeur boats and using two dirt cheap diesels to ride around on. > > > > -- The Heretic > > > | 19755|19728|2009-02-16 13:59:24|brentswain38|Re: Composting head dimensions|The guy who invented the wheel really got the ball rolling , but I wouldn't use his technolgy today. Ditton Sun Mar's technology. Maybe airhead can use the flood of orders to reduce the price. Ditto Natures head. I heard the separtaing of solids from liquids was invented by NASA. Natures head proves their is no valid patent on it. NASA isn't allowed to hold patents. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 11:37:07AM -0500, Donal Philby wrote: > > > > You can look at them as exorbitantly expensive. > > They are. > > > But how many years of > > metal and fiberglass fabrication experience, not to mention natural > > inclination, to be able to quickly build your own version, using Mr. > > Airhead's epiphany laid before you. > > I realize this sounds heartless, but why should anyone care about Mr. > Airhead's "years of experience" except as a sales point? What I want, > when I buy a head, is not "years of experience"; what I want is a > well-working head. When Mr. Airhead goes to the market, he's not paying > the baker for his years of experience - otherwise, he'd be paying > $100/loaf. Might be paying a couple of grand for a pound of meat, too > (the rancher, the butcher, the trucker, the supermarket manager, etc...) > > I'm not just saying this from the consumer perspective, either. I have a > lot of years in the computer industry, but if I wasn't able to solve my > clients' problems, I'd be tossed out into the street - they wouldn't > care about my experience, only about the fact that the problems still > exist. If it had taken me ten seconds to get to the high level of > expertise that I have, that still wouldn't be any of my clients' > business or modify how much they're paying; they pay me to make the > problems go away. End of story. > > Now, if Mr. Airhead is smart enough to capitalize on those years of > experience, good for him and more power to him. But if his business > model is so bad that he can be knocked out of the market by knockoffs, > then his experience isn't doing him much good. > > > Here's another: years ago I remember flying in military transport > > planes. No head aboard, but on one bulkhead their was always a funnel > > connected to a tube. > > Just recently, I was talking to somebody about their multihull; the guy > had a hole in one of his cockpit seats, discreetly covered with a neat > little removable lid and aiming straight down at the water. Didn't even > have to go anywhere when steering in bad weather. Brilliant. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19756|19739|2009-02-16 16:07:40|Paul Wilson|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|Regarding the Dashews. I have a great deal of respect for the Dashews since they actually sail their boats and have practised what they preach. Very few couples put the miles on like them and I like how they have always experimented and then tested their ideas themselves. Their books are full of practical ideas and common sense whether you have a lot of money or not. I highly recommend them. Having met them, I wouldn't call them elitist. They are down to earth and very quiet, unassuming people. I have never heard or read anything from them that said "you have to do it our way". They are certainly in a different league than most of us, but variety is the spice of life and I would welcome them alongside me in any anchorage. The people I have met in Dashew boats seem to be as happy as any other cruiser. People can make their own choices. If someone is stupid enough to think that the Dashew's way is the only way and get discouraged because they can't afford it, then no loss. They are too narrow minded and they don't belong cruising. Personally, I could never afford one of their boats and wouldn't have one if I could. Their boats are incredibly big and complex, and painting one would break me. I want the freedom of a boat I can afford to maintain myself. It's my choice but I wouldn't condemn someone for making a different choice that seems to work for them. Anyway, I don't want to start a debate, but I really like some of their stuff and keep their books handy along with Brents. Cheers, Paul It is sad that some will be discouraged from even trying to get out cruising by Dashews elitist propaganda, believing that the only way one can go cruising is with a huge pile of money. I hear he is writing a new book called " How to cruise on $10,000 a day." Such a deal!! Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19757|19739|2009-02-16 16:46:12|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|Thanks Paul, I´m glad there is a voice of reason; Ben, Brent ... Steve Dashew is as far from elitist as someone with money can ever be. He does a large service to the community by freely documenting his ideas, experiences and backing them with numbers, coupled with his ideas collected over 30 years of cruising. There are 6M sailboats. His is a 6M powerboat. There are 60.000 $ sailboats. There are 60.000 powerboats (trawler style). In both categories, all he said makes sense and checks out. According to all published numbers I have been able to find- frhe the Pardeys (end end) to the Dashews (other end). Steve Dashew designs excellent boats to a given market - but well. In my humble opinion, they are by no means "extremely complex". The Nordhavns, yes, but not Steves boats. Look, Steve sells all his boats, with an excellent profit - he is doing exactly the right thing for *his market* - just like You are doing *for your market*. Both of You are 100% correct. It would make no sense for Steve D. to equip his boats less lavishly, when "his customers" want that and prefer to pay for it. What I said is; Steve D. has an excellent design sense in building "stout" and "safe", and measuring how "well" it works. This is very, very nice. And he publishes his numbers. Where are the numbers for Selene, Krogen, (Nordhavn), Swan, etc etc ? Where Are the Numbers for Bruce R ? I did not imply I would like or build for a 10.000$ / day - on the contrary. I specifically meant and implied that I would like and will build "in the same philosophy" for a lot less money. My examples/preferences; - nr of blades in prop - he went for the expensive one - engine size - same - engine shaft - same What I like; -strong glass windows (thick - very good) -shades - reduce air-conditioning needs 30% (this is in contrast to the absolutely incredible Nordhavn idea of having 7 compressors on one boat) -refrigerator power needs calculated, known and optimised (I will just use a cheap fridge) -costs given The new Dashew FPB boat is not painted and does not need paint (a grin - it´s a bit of a joke). From the people living on the water, several sites, fuel use has nothing to do with your primary cost of living. Every proven example puts it between nr 4 and nr 7. For me, a boat for living on (semi)permanently means I want hot and cold water, a loo, electricity for a laptop, (real) power tools. This, for me, necessitates a power boat. Sailboats are more fun. For me, the pc´s and power tools is how I can afford to live onboard permanently. Perhaps I expressed myself poorly, but I definitely did not think, and do not, and AFAIK did not in any way say or imply, that I prefer to live on "10.000$ a day". If this was indeed the case, I do most humbly apologise. Ben O- I was rather surprised by your tone ... ? What ? Why on earth ? If someone like Steve D. has more money than me, and chooses to share his experiences in great detail, unlike 99% of any and all sailors, cruisers and especially builders, I think it´s a great service. I don´t mind that he has money, and certainly do not feel a need to critisize him for it. I happily help Nordhavn owners when they come over here (usually language stuff or locating a part, I live in Barcelona Spain and speak fluent Spanish and know where to get stuff. It does not mean I need to afford a N. (I don´t at the moment)). Know, I also have a great deal of respect and liking for Brent´s filosophy, ideas, and doings. It´s all good stuff. I read ever post of your from the MBS when I joined some 4-5 years back. You were a voice of experienced! sanity in a sometimes (differing) crowd. I am really sorry if I said something wrong ... I definitely did not mean to. Paul Wilson wrote: > > Regarding the Dashews. > > I have a great deal of respect for the Dashews since they actually sail > their boats and have practised what they preach. Very few couples put the > miles on like them and I like how they have always experimented and then > tested their ideas themselves. Their books are full of practical ideas and > common sense whether you have a lot of money or not. I highly recommend > them. Having met them, I wouldn't call them elitist. They are down to > earth and very quiet, unassuming people. I have never heard or read > anything from them that said "you have to do it our way". They are > certainly in a different league than most of us, but variety is the > spice of > life and I would welcome them alongside me in any anchorage. The people I > have met in Dashew boats seem to be as happy as any other cruiser. People > can make their own choices. If someone is stupid enough to think that the > Dashew's way is the only way and get discouraged because they can't afford > it, then no loss. They are too narrow minded and they don't belong > cruising. Personally, I could never afford one of their boats and wouldn't > have one if I could. Their boats are incredibly big and complex, and > painting one would break me. I want the freedom of a boat I can afford to > maintain myself. It's my choice but I wouldn't condemn someone for making > a different choice that seems to work for them. > > Anyway, I don't want to start a debate, but I really like some of their > stuff and keep their books handy along with Brents. > > Cheers, Paul > > It is sad that some will be discouraged from even trying to get out > cruising by Dashews elitist propaganda, believing that the only way > one can go cruising is with a huge pile of money. > I hear he is writing a new book called " How to cruise on $10,000 a > day." Such a deal!! > Brent > > > > | 19758|19739|2009-02-16 18:29:55|Ben Okopnik|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:46:02PM +0100, gcode fi (hanermo) wrote: > > Ben, Brent ... > Steve Dashew is as far from elitist as someone with money can ever be. I didn't call him an elitist; please don't confuse me with someone else. My point was, and remains, that powerboat cruising is much more expensive than cruising under sail - and it makes no difference if Steve Dashew is the nicest guy in the world. If he says that cruising under power is cheaper than cruising under sail, he's flat wrong. > Steve Dashew designs excellent boats to a given market - but well. In my > humble opinion, they are by no means "extremely complex". As it happens, I agree; I've been aboard a Sundeer, and I think their deck layout is very sensible. > From the people living on the water, several sites, fuel use has > nothing to do with your primary cost of living. > Every proven example puts it between nr 4 and nr 7. I'm afraid that your "proven examples" only exist in on-line polls. I've been living aboard since 1991, and I think I can speak for _actual_ and _real_ people living on the water - I am one. I spent 7 years cruising the Caribbean, and a couple of years after that doing the US East Coast. If I did it under power, the cost of fuel would have multiplied the money I spent by a factor of a hundred at least. When I first left the US shores, I had $200 in my pocket. I earned some money along the way, doing whatever I could, but for most of those years, I was usually broke or close to it - and my sails carried me wherever I wanted to go anyway. On a powerboat, I would have just sat in some harbor and never moved - and, incidentally, never had any options for making money that I ran into along the way. If you want to convince someone that cruising under power is cheaper than under sail, I really am the wrong guy to try it on. > For me, a boat for living on (semi)permanently means I want hot and cold > water, a loo, electricity for a laptop, (real) power tools. [shrug] I've got a big hammer drill, several grinders, a circular saw, a Sawzall, and two welders aboard, along with lots of other tools. I make my living via my computer, and - as you may have seen from recent discussions here - I have a "loo" that's as good as it gets. Oh, and I still live on a sailboat. > Ben O- > I was rather surprised by your tone ... ? What ? > Why on earth ? If you believe that "cruising in a powerboat is cheaper than in a sailboat", then you and I disagree completely. I'm sorry if you've found my tone offensive, but it's very, very difficult to convey strong disagreement without seeming disagreeable - especially via a low-bandwidth medium like email. I have nothing against you, and I don't have anything against Steve Dashew. But I do disagree with that statement completely. > I don´t mind that he has money, and certainly do not feel a need to > critisize him for it. I happily help Nordhavn owners when they come over > here (usually language stuff or locating a part, I live in Barcelona > Spain and speak fluent Spanish and know where to get stuff. It does not > mean I need to afford a N. (I don´t at the moment)). And I don't have problems in that direction either. I've given a large amount of help to a number of people in the sailing community, and I don't stop to check what size of boat they're on. In fact, I recall a Canadian couple a few years ago who came in on a 50-plus "gold-plater"; they dragged and got tangled in my anchor chains one squally night, and the husband hurt himself badly while wrestling with the windlass. I rafted up our boats, calmed them down, bandaged his leg, took him to the hospital, helped them find an alternator repair shop, welded up the alternator bracket for them, taught them how to change their fuel filters... I assure you that I didn't do this because I hate people with expensive boats. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19759|19739|2009-02-16 18:56:20|brentswain38|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|The suggestion that power cruising is as cheap as sailing is very misleading , and as has been pointed out, a bare faced lie. As such it has to be challenged. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > > Thanks Paul, I´m glad there is a voice of reason; > > Ben, Brent ... > Steve Dashew is as far from elitist as someone with money can ever be. > > He does a large service to the community by freely documenting his > ideas, experiences and backing them with numbers, coupled with his ideas > collected over 30 years of cruising. > There are 6M sailboats. > His is a 6M powerboat. > There are 60.000 $ sailboats. > There are 60.000 powerboats (trawler style). > In both categories, all he said makes sense and checks out. According to > all published numbers I have been able to find- frhe the Pardeys (end > end) to the Dashews (other end). > > Steve Dashew designs excellent boats to a given market - but well. In my > humble opinion, they are by no means "extremely complex". > The Nordhavns, yes, but not Steves boats. > Look, Steve sells all his boats, with an excellent profit - he is doing > exactly the right thing for *his market* - just like You are doing *for > your market*. > Both of You are 100% correct. > It would make no sense for Steve D. to equip his boats less lavishly, > when "his customers" want that and prefer to pay for it. > > What I said is; > Steve D. has an excellent design sense in building "stout" and "safe", > and measuring how "well" it works. This is very, very nice. And he > publishes his numbers. > Where are the numbers for Selene, Krogen, (Nordhavn), Swan, etc etc ? > Where Are the Numbers for Bruce R ? > > I did not imply I would like or build for a 10.000$ / day - on the > contrary. I specifically meant and implied that I would like and will > build "in the same philosophy" for a lot less money. > My examples/preferences; > - nr of blades in prop - he went for the expensive one > - engine size - same > - engine shaft - same > > What I like; > -strong glass windows (thick - very good) > -shades - reduce air-conditioning needs 30% (this is in contrast to the > absolutely incredible Nordhavn idea of having 7 compressors on one boat) > -refrigerator power needs calculated, known and optimised (I will just > use a cheap fridge) > -costs given > > The new Dashew FPB boat is not painted and does not need paint (a grin - > it´s a bit of a joke). > > From the people living on the water, several sites, fuel use has > nothing to do with your primary cost of living. > Every proven example puts it between nr 4 and nr 7. > > For me, a boat for living on (semi)permanently means I want hot and cold > water, a loo, electricity for a laptop, (real) power tools. > This, for me, necessitates a power boat. Sailboats are more fun. > For me, the pc´s and power tools is how I can afford to live onboard > permanently. > > Perhaps I expressed myself poorly, but I definitely did not think, and > do not, and AFAIK did not in any way say or imply, that I prefer to live > on "10.000$ a day". > If this was indeed the case, I do most humbly apologise. > > Ben O- > I was rather surprised by your tone ... ? What ? > Why on earth ? > > If someone like Steve D. has more money than me, and chooses to share > his experiences in great detail, unlike 99% of any and all sailors, > cruisers and especially builders, I think it´s a great service. > I don´t mind that he has money, and certainly do not feel a need to > critisize him for it. I happily help Nordhavn owners when they come over > here (usually language stuff or locating a part, I live in Barcelona > Spain and speak fluent Spanish and know where to get stuff. It does not > mean I need to afford a N. (I don´t at the moment)). > > Know, I also have a great deal of respect and liking for Brent´s > filosophy, ideas, and doings. It´s all good stuff. > I read ever post of your from the MBS when I joined some 4-5 years back. > You were a voice of experienced! sanity in a sometimes (differing) crowd. > I am really sorry if I said something wrong ... I definitely did not > mean to. > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Regarding the Dashews. > > > > I have a great deal of respect for the Dashews since they actually sail > > their boats and have practised what they preach. Very few couples put the > > miles on like them and I like how they have always experimented and then > > tested their ideas themselves. Their books are full of practical ideas and > > common sense whether you have a lot of money or not. I highly recommend > > them. Having met them, I wouldn't call them elitist. They are down to > > earth and very quiet, unassuming people. I have never heard or read > > anything from them that said "you have to do it our way". They are > > certainly in a different league than most of us, but variety is the > > spice of > > life and I would welcome them alongside me in any anchorage. The people I > > have met in Dashew boats seem to be as happy as any other cruiser. People > > can make their own choices. If someone is stupid enough to think that the > > Dashew's way is the only way and get discouraged because they can't afford > > it, then no loss. They are too narrow minded and they don't belong > > cruising. Personally, I could never afford one of their boats and wouldn't > > have one if I could. Their boats are incredibly big and complex, and > > painting one would break me. I want the freedom of a boat I can afford to > > maintain myself. It's my choice but I wouldn't condemn someone for making > > a different choice that seems to work for them. > > > > Anyway, I don't want to start a debate, but I really like some of their > > stuff and keep their books handy along with Brents. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > It is sad that some will be discouraged from even trying to get out > > cruising by Dashews elitist propaganda, believing that the only way > > one can go cruising is with a huge pile of money. > > I hear he is writing a new book called " How to cruise on $10,000 a > > day." Such a deal!! > > Brent > > > > > > > > > | 19760|19739|2009-02-16 20:27:35|Paul Wilson|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|I wouldn't say power cruising is cheaper than sailing and I am not sure Dashew has ever said so either. I think his statements get taken out of context. In the articles I have read about his new power boat, he has talked about his own experience with his own boats and I don't believe he has ever made such a general statement. Specifically, I think that Steve Dashew has said that a Dashew-type powerboat is cheaper to operate and buy than a Dashew-type sailboat. I think this is quite possible since his sailboats have quite expensive systems (large engines, generators, etc) and can't be compared to the typical sailboat. You can buy a lot of fuel for the cost of one of his sails or the price of one of his masts. From his website: "the operational costs on a per mile basis are substantially less than what we're used to with sail." He is very specific about how he has come to this conclusion and he makes no general statements. He compares his new powerboat, a 70 footer with his old sailboat, a 78 footer. These are not your typical boats. http://www.setsail.com/dashew/Operating_Costs.html On his website he says he has 37,000 miles now with Windhorse. I see no reason to doubt what he says. To imply that he is telling lies is wrong. He isn't. Paul The suggestion that power cruising is as cheap as sailing is very misleading , and as has been pointed out, a bare faced lie. As such it has to be challenged. Brent So now the Dashews say that motoring is cheaper than sailing . What total elitist bullshit. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19761|19739|2009-02-16 20:38:21|Barney Treadway|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|If Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha all came to me and said that operational costs on a per mile basis are lower for an internal combustion engine using fuel you have to buy are lower than using a propulsion system where the energy is freely acquired I tell them they were full of shit too. Doesn't matter who the messenger is if the message is wrong. :-) Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: "Paul Wilson" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:27:34 To: Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Double Spreader Rigs I wouldn't say power cruising is cheaper than sailing and I am not sure Dashew has ever said so either. I think his statements get taken out of context. In the articles I have read about his new power boat, he has talked about his own experience with his own boats and I don't believe he has ever made such a general statement. Specifically, I think that Steve Dashew has said that a Dashew-type powerboat is cheaper to operate and buy than a Dashew-type sailboat. I think this is quite possible since his sailboats have quite expensive systems (large engines, generators, etc) and can't be compared to the typical sailboat. You can buy a lot of fuel for the cost of one of his sails or the price of one of his masts. From his website: "the operational costs on a per mile basis are substantially less than what we're used to with sail." He is very specific about how he has come to this conclusion and he makes no general statements. He compares his new powerboat, a 70 footer with his old sailboat, a 78 footer. These are not your typical boats. http://www.setsail.com/dashew/Operating_Costs.html On his website he says he has 37,000 miles now with Windhorse. I see no reason to doubt what he says. To imply that he is telling lies is wrong. He isn't. Paul The suggestion that power cruising is as cheap as sailing is very misleading , and as has been pointed out, a bare faced lie. As such it has to be challenged. Brent So now the Dashews say that motoring is cheaper than sailing . What total elitist bullshit. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19762|19739|2009-02-16 20:43:39|Barney Treadway|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|But then again they probably still use those electric winches and electric furling gear.... Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: "Paul Wilson" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:27:34 To: Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Double Spreader Rigs I wouldn't say power cruising is cheaper than sailing and I am not sure Dashew has ever said so either. I think his statements get taken out of context. In the articles I have read about his new power boat, he has talked about his own experience with his own boats and I don't believe he has ever made such a general statement. Specifically, I think that Steve Dashew has said that a Dashew-type powerboat is cheaper to operate and buy than a Dashew-type sailboat. I think this is quite possible since his sailboats have quite expensive systems (large engines, generators, etc) and can't be compared to the typical sailboat. You can buy a lot of fuel for the cost of one of his sails or the price of one of his masts. From his website: "the operational costs on a per mile basis are substantially less than what we're used to with sail." He is very specific about how he has come to this conclusion and he makes no general statements. He compares his new powerboat, a 70 footer with his old sailboat, a 78 footer. These are not your typical boats. http://www.setsail.com/dashew/Operating_Costs.html On his website he says he has 37,000 miles now with Windhorse. I see no reason to doubt what he says. To imply that he is telling lies is wrong. He isn't. Paul The suggestion that power cruising is as cheap as sailing is very misleading , and as has been pointed out, a bare faced lie. As such it has to be challenged. Brent So now the Dashews say that motoring is cheaper than sailing . What total elitist bullshit. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19763|19739|2009-02-16 20:50:06|Ben Okopnik|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 02:27:34PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I wouldn't say power cruising is cheaper than sailing and I am not sure > Dashew has ever said so either. I think his statements get taken out of > context. Paul, please recall that neither Brent not I were reacting to a statement by Steve Dashew. We were both responding to a statement by Hannu, which I'll cite here: | And they have shown very well why cruising in a powerboat is cheaper | than in a sailboat. Note the unqualified nature of the comparison, please. Now, it is certainly possible to qualify it to make it true - "cruising in a 22' powerboat is cheaper than in a 200' sailboat", or "cruising in a fully-sponsored powerboat is cheaper than in a sailboat you have to pay for", or "cruising in a powerboat is cheaper BECAUSE THE MARTIANS WILL TEAR YOUR HEAD OFF IF YOU CRUISE IN A SAILBOAT!!!!" :) - but, again, the statement as it was made is wrong. > To imply that he is telling lies is wrong. He isn't. I don't believe that either Brent or I have done so. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19764|19739|2009-02-16 20:57:22|David Frantz|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|I'm none of the guys referenced below but have to say it depends on what your long term goals are. Given that both ships will have an engine then you need to look at the cost of sail and rigging over the distance you expect to travel vs diesel fuel. In any event it wouldn't take much time at sea to cross the line. In effect your sail and rigging are your fuel and the more miles you put on them the better your economy of travel. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 16, 2009, at 8:38 PM, Barney Treadway wrote: > If Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha all came to me and said that > operational costs on a per mile basis are lower for an internal > combustion engine using fuel you have to buy are lower than using a > propulsion system where the energy is freely acquired I tell them > they were full of shit too. Doesn't matter who the messenger is if > the message is wrong. :-) > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Paul Wilson" > > Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:27:34 > To: > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Double Spreader Rigs > > > I wouldn't say power cruising is cheaper than sailing and I am not > sure > Dashew has ever said so either. I think his statements get taken > out of > context. In the articles I have read about his new power boat, he has > talked about his own experience with his own boats and I don't > believe he > has ever made such a general statement. Specifically, I think that > Steve > Dashew has said that a Dashew-type powerboat is cheaper to operate > and buy > than a Dashew-type sailboat. I think this is quite possible since > his > sailboats have quite expensive systems (large engines, generators, > etc) and > can't be compared to the typical sailboat. You can buy a lot of > fuel for > the cost of one of his sails or the price of one of his masts. > From his > website: "the operational costs on a per mile basis are > substantially less > than what we're used to with sail." He is very specific about how > he has > come to this conclusion and he makes no general statements. He > compares his > new powerboat, a 70 footer with his old sailboat, a 78 footer. > These are > not your typical boats. > > > > http://www.setsail.com/dashew/Operating_Costs.html > > > > On his website he says he has 37,000 miles now with Windhorse. I > see no > reason to doubt what he says. > > > > To imply that he is telling lies is wrong. He isn't. > > > > Paul > > > > The suggestion that power cruising is as cheap as sailing is very > misleading , and as has been pointed out, a bare faced lie. > As such it has to be challenged. > > Brent > > So now the Dashews say that motoring is cheaper than sailing . What > total elitist bullshit. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 19765|19765|2009-02-16 21:00:47|prairiemaidca|Lightening Stikes on a Swain Hull|Hi All: I'm curious, has anyone had their Swain hull hit by lightening and if so what were the consequences. Also what if any so called prevention or damage limiting devices or systems were in place? Martin... (Prairie Maid)| 19766|19739|2009-02-16 21:02:05|Ben Okopnik|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 01:38:20AM +0000, Barney Treadway wrote: > If Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha all came to me and said that > operational costs on a per mile basis are lower for an internal > combustion engine using fuel you have to buy are lower than using a > propulsion system where the energy is freely acquired I tell them they > were full of shit too. Doesn't matter who the messenger is if the > message is wrong. :-) Hey, at least two of those three are reported as reversing entropy... imagine an engine that _creates_ fuel as it runs. That would be cheaper than free. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19767|19728|2009-02-16 22:12:29|Donal Philby|Re: Composting head dimensions|-----Original Message----- >From: brentswain38 >NASA isn't allowed to hold patents. Actually, it can. A friend of mine with a PhD in physics from MIT who worked for NASA for years invented the technology for making the tiny hologram that can be seen on credit cards. He talked long and hard with the powers that be to hold on to the patent and charge a small fee for use. But they decided it was not worth the trouble. My friend said that if they had done as he asked and charged a penny for every credit card use, it would have funded the entire space program. donal| 19768|19728|2009-02-16 22:42:37|kingsknight4life|Re: Composting head dimensions|I always wondered how well does the urine separation work when using the head while the boat is heeled? It looks like the urine separator would do a good job when it (the head) is flat and level but does the pee still run down hill into the holes when the whole unit is tilted 20- 30 degrees to one side? Rowland| 19769|19728|2009-02-16 23:15:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: Composting head dimensions|On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:12:27PM -0500, Donal Philby wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > >From: brentswain38 > > >NASA isn't allowed to hold patents. > > Actually, it can. A friend of mine with a PhD in physics from MIT who > worked for NASA for years invented the technology for making the tiny > hologram that can be seen on credit cards. He talked long and hard > with the powers that be to hold on to the patent and charge a small > fee for use. But they decided it was not worth the trouble. My > friend said that if they had done as he asked and charged a penny for > every credit card use, it would have funded the entire space program. As far as I know, Stephen Benton never worked for NASA. He created the so-called "Benson holograms" while working for Polaroid, in 1968. http://www.holophile.com/html/benton.htm -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19770|19728|2009-02-16 23:28:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: Composting head dimensions|On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 03:42:35AM -0000, kingsknight4life wrote: > I always wondered how well does the urine separation work when using > the head while the boat is heeled? It looks like the urine separator > would do a good job when it (the head) is flat and level but does the > pee still run down hill into the holes when the whole unit is tilted 20- > 30 degrees to one side? I haven't had it out in that kind of weather yet. Frankly, I hope I won't for a long, long time: by the time "Ulysses" heels 30 degrees, most people will be going to the bathroom right where they stand. :))) This boat is rather slow, but she's very, very stable and sea-kindly; even in a really bad gale, she didn't heel more than ~15 degrees. I do tend to stay on top of sail changes, but that's not all there is to it. I've mounted the head athwartships, and with the two drains, I suspect that it will be all right. As I see it, a degree of heel that would cause problems with this head would probably make any other kind unusable as well. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19771|19728|2009-02-16 23:36:32|Ben Okopnik|Re: Composting head dimensions|On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 11:11:56PM -0500, Benjamin Okopnik wrote: > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:12:27PM -0500, Donal Philby wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: brentswain38 > > > > >NASA isn't allowed to hold patents. > > > > Actually, it can. A friend of mine with a PhD in physics from MIT who > > worked for NASA for years invented the technology for making the tiny > > hologram that can be seen on credit cards. He talked long and hard > > with the powers that be to hold on to the patent and charge a small > > fee for use. But they decided it was not worth the trouble. My > > friend said that if they had done as he asked and charged a penny for > > every credit card use, it would have funded the entire space program. > > As far as I know, Stephen Benton never worked for NASA. He created the > so-called "Benson holograms" while working for Polaroid, in 1968. Darn it, can't type today. "Benton holograms", of course. > http://www.holophile.com/html/benton.htm It is, unfortunately, true that NASA holds, and is now selling off, patents - on things they've discovered while funded by taxes. A complete violation of taxpayer rights... but, hey, the government has the guns, so we can't say anything about it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19772|19728|2009-02-17 00:27:05|Paul Wilson|Re: Composting head dimensions|I met an American guy who was always complaining about not being able to get or keep crew members. He had a Cal 34 and when healed over his head wouldn't work on one tack. It turned out he sailed with a pile of newspapers and spread them on the floor when he needed to take a crap. He would then roll the newspaper up when he was done and throw it out the companionway. It was probably practical and made sense but I wonder if that was the reason he couldn't keep crew. Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:25 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Composting head dimensions On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 03:42:35AM -0000, kingsknight4life wrote: > I always wondered how well does the urine separation work when using > the head while the boat is heeled? It looks like the urine separator > would do a good job when it (the head) is flat and level but does the > pee still run down hill into the holes when the whole unit is tilted 20- > 30 degrees to one side? I haven't had it out in that kind of weather yet. Frankly, I hope I won't for a long, long time: by the time "Ulysses" heels 30 degrees, most people will be going to the bathroom right where they stand. :))) This boat is rather slow, but she's very, very stable and sea-kindly; even in a really bad gale, she didn't heel more than ~15 degrees. I do tend to stay on top of sail changes, but that's not all there is to it. I've mounted the head athwartships, and with the two drains, I suspect that it will be all right. As I see it, a degree of heel that would cause problems with this head would probably make any other kind unusable as well. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19773|19739|2009-02-17 00:27:09|Paul Wilson|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|I take your point, Ben and sorry if I gave the impression I was implicating you. You are right, you never said anything against Dashew but I think Brent did. I really think when Brent is talking about elitism and lies, he is referring to Dashew, not Hannu. From Brent's e-mail... "So now the Dashews say that motoring is cheaper than sailing . What total elitist bullshit." And then refers to "Dashews elitist propaganda". And then "The suggestion that power cruising is as cheap as sailing is very misleading , and as has been pointed out, a bare faced lie." The third statement may not be specific but when taken with the previous two, I assume it is also a referral to Steve Dashew, not Hannu. It's always a shame that people get labeled so easily. There is nothing elitist about Steve Dashew. In my very limited experience, he is a real gentleman and as previously said, generous with his ideas and his time. I would hate the Dashews to judge others as some judge them. Being judgmental always limits your circle of friends. I like to think that we are all the same and as long as you are out cruising and having a good time, it really doesn't matter what boat you have or what you did in a previous life. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Double Spreader Rigs On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 02:27:34PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I wouldn't say power cruising is cheaper than sailing and I am not sure > Dashew has ever said so either. I think his statements get taken out of > context. Paul, please recall that neither Brent not I were reacting to a statement by Steve Dashew. We were both responding to a statement by Hannu, which I'll cite here: | And they have shown very well why cruising in a powerboat is cheaper | than in a sailboat. Note the unqualified nature of the comparison, please. Now, it is certainly possible to qualify it to make it true - "cruising in a 22' powerboat is cheaper than in a 200' sailboat", or "cruising in a fully-sponsored powerboat is cheaper than in a sailboat you have to pay for", or "cruising in a powerboat is cheaper BECAUSE THE MARTIANS WILL TEAR YOUR HEAD OFF IF YOU CRUISE IN A SAILBOAT!!!!" :) - but, again, the statement as it was made is wrong. > To imply that he is telling lies is wrong. He isn't. I don't believe that either Brent or I have done so. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19774|19739|2009-02-17 00:51:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 06:27:03PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I take your point, Ben and sorry if I gave the impression I was implicating > you. No worries, Paul; I just wanted to make sure we weren't talking past each other. You're a good guy, and I'd hate for us to miscommunicate. > Being judgmental > always limits your circle of friends. I like to think that we are all the > same and as long as you are out cruising and having a good time, it really > doesn't matter what boat you have or what you did in a previous life. I've found that once you're out and cruising, especially in the farther reaches, there's a great camaraderie among sailors (and the very few powerboaters that make it that far.) Here in the States, it's very much a status game... and unless you fly the right burgee and have the right boat, you're just not the Right Sort of People. It's a pretty judgemental place, this first world. I need to get out and cruising again. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19775|19739|2009-02-17 01:38:05|theboilerflue|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|here's and article about them apparently they don't like to go slower than 10 knots in a sailboat off shore and will motor. No wonder their power boat (perhaps more motoring efficient) is cheaper than sail. Who does that really, on a sailboat? anything less than ten knots? sounds like a completely different league, Apples and oranges. "In creating Wind Horse, he wanted to match Beowulf's300-mile days on a dollar-for-dollar basis. When sailing off- shore, the Dashews motor if their speed drops to less than 10 knots, about 40% of the time. Taking into account fuel, mainte- nance and wear on sails, Wind Horse costs $US3.09 per mile at an average speed of 11 knots – just beating Beowulf on economy." http://www.setsail.com/dashew/pdfs/boating_nz_fpb.pdf| 19776|19728|2009-02-17 11:51:43|Donal Philby|Re: Composting head dimensions|Ben, It was a specific encrypted version/process, if I remember right, that was useful to prevent/discourage counterfeiting, and why the CC companies latched on. We used to meet up for coffee. He was an avid amateur photographer and I was doing magazine and advertising photography, so that was mostly what we spoke about. He was way ahead of me when it came to understanding digital imaging. donal -----Original Message----- >From: Ben Okopnik >Sent: Feb 16, 2009 11:11 PM >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Composting head dimensions > >On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:12:27PM -0500, Donal Philby wrote: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: brentswain38 >> >> >NASA isn't allowed to hold patents. >> >> Actually, it can. A friend of mine with a PhD in physics from MIT who >> worked for NASA for years invented the technology for making the tiny >> hologram that can be seen on credit cards. He talked long and hard >> with the powers that be to hold on to the patent and charge a small >> fee for use. But they decided it was not worth the trouble. My >> friend said that if they had done as he asked and charged a penny for >> every credit card use, it would have funded the entire space program. > >As far as I know, Stephen Benton never worked for NASA. He created the >so-called "Benson holograms" while working for Polaroid, in 1968. > >http://www.holophile.com/html/benton.htm > > >-- >* Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > >------------------------------------ > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 19777|19777|2009-02-17 13:20:31|brianchabassol|Beta marine 20 HP|Hi Brent Wondering if you have had any runins with Betamarine engines? I was considering the 3 cylinder 20 HP for my 31. They also have a 14 and 16 in the same range but they Have 2 cylinders. Any advice appreaciated Brian| 19778|19777|2009-02-17 14:22:58|Paul Cotter|Re: Beta marine 20 HP|Small Beta marine engines are Kubotas. If you are interested in running a dry exhaust, there are a lot of second hand Kubotas (the same Kubota models as the Beta Marine engines) out there and a few outfits that import gray market Kubotas from Japan. They cost a fraction of the Beta engines. There are a few 3 cylinder Kubotas in the 12-20 hp range, but Beta only "marinized" the 2 cylinder Z engines. Kubota has a very strong reputation in the small diesel market. I've known a couple people with Betas and they are happy with them. Cheers Paul On Feb 17, 2009, at 9:20 AM, brianchabassol wrote: > Hi Brent > Wondering if you have had any runins with Betamarine engines? I was > considering the 3 cylinder 20 HP for my 31. They also have a 14 and 16 > in the same range but they Have 2 cylinders. > Any advice appreaciated > Brian > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19779|19777|2009-02-17 14:36:42|brentswain38|Re: Beta marine 20 HP|Kubota are great engines , simple , well built and lots of parts everywhere. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Cotter wrote: > > Small Beta marine engines are Kubotas. If you are interested in > running a dry exhaust, there are a lot of second hand Kubotas (the > same Kubota models as the Beta Marine engines) out there and a few > outfits that import gray market Kubotas from Japan. They cost a > fraction of the Beta engines. There are a few 3 cylinder Kubotas in > the 12-20 hp range, but Beta only "marinized" the 2 cylinder Z > engines. Kubota has a very strong reputation in the small diesel > market. I've known a couple people with Betas and they are happy with > them. > > Cheers > > Paul > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 9:20 AM, brianchabassol wrote: > > > Hi Brent > > Wondering if you have had any runins with Betamarine engines? I was > > considering the 3 cylinder 20 HP for my 31. They also have a 14 and 16 > > in the same range but they Have 2 cylinders. > > Any advice appreaciated > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19780|19739|2009-02-17 14:39:55|brentswain38|Re: Double Spreader Rigs|If you hate being at sea that much, catch a plane. It would cost a lot less than what they are spending.. How much one hates being at sea says a lot about the boat they chose. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > here's and article about them apparently they don't like to go slower > than 10 knots in a sailboat off shore and will motor. No wonder their > power boat (perhaps more motoring efficient) is cheaper than sail. Who > does that really, on a sailboat? anything less than ten knots? sounds > like a completely different league, Apples and oranges. > > "In creating Wind Horse, he > wanted to match Beowulf's300-mile days on > a dollar-for-dollar basis. When sailing off- > shore, the Dashews motor if their speed > drops to less than 10 knots, about 40% of > the time. Taking into account fuel, mainte- > nance and wear on sails, Wind Horse costs > $US3.09 per mile at an average speed of 11 > knots – just beating Beowulf on economy." > > http://www.setsail.com/dashew/pdfs/boating_nz_fpb.pdf > | 19781|19765|2009-02-17 14:44:43|brentswain38|Re: Lightening Stikes on a Swain Hull|I'm unaware of any, but one of the standard ways to deal with the problem is good grounding. You couldn't ask for better grounding than a metal hull. I disconnect all radios when lightening is around. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi All: I'm curious, has anyone had their Swain hull hit by lightening > and if so what were the consequences. Also what if any so called > prevention or damage limiting devices or systems were in place? > Martin... (Prairie Maid) > | 19782|19728|2009-02-17 14:49:10|brentswain38|Re: Composting head dimensions|I have had no problem with it tilted to one side. One way to make sure is to give the bottom of the bowl adequate slope, then try it out by heeling the bowl before putting it in the head . It is not a problem with the head in the fore and aft direction, which should be done anyway, as it is far more comfortable when the boat is heeled. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > I always wondered how well does the urine separation work when using > the head while the boat is heeled? It looks like the urine separator > would do a good job when it (the head) is flat and level but does the > pee still run down hill into the holes when the whole unit is tilted 20- > 30 degrees to one side? > Rowland > | 19783|19728|2009-02-17 14:52:19|brentswain38|Re: Composting head dimensions|For traditional heads it may be a simple matter iof relocating the intake thru hull deeper and closer to the centreline, so it doesn't come out of the water when heeled. I once had this problem til I moved the intake. Brent. Breent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I met an American guy who was always complaining about not being able to get > or keep crew members. He had a Cal 34 and when healed over his head > wouldn't work on one tack. It turned out he sailed with a pile of > newspapers and spread them on the floor when he needed to take a crap. He > would then roll the newspaper up when he was done and throw it out the > companionway. It was probably practical and made sense but I wonder if that > was the reason he couldn't keep crew. > > > > Paul > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:25 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Composting head dimensions > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 03:42:35AM -0000, kingsknight4life wrote: > > I always wondered how well does the urine separation work when using > > the head while the boat is heeled? It looks like the urine separator > > would do a good job when it (the head) is flat and level but does the > > pee still run down hill into the holes when the whole unit is tilted 20- > > 30 degrees to one side? > > I haven't had it out in that kind of weather yet. Frankly, I hope I > won't for a long, long time: by the time "Ulysses" heels 30 degrees, > most people will be going to the bathroom right where they stand. :))) > This boat is rather slow, but she's very, very stable and sea- kindly; > even in a really bad gale, she didn't heel more than ~15 degrees. I do > tend to stay on top of sail changes, but that's not all there is to it. > > I've mounted the head athwartships, and with the two drains, I suspect > that it will be all right. As I see it, a degree of heel that would > cause problems with this head would probably make any other kind > unusable as well. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19784|19784|2009-02-17 16:29:42|pynrc@aol.com|Painting gal wire|Hi, I have had the same gal wire on my boat for 20 years. I usually paint it with a 50/50 mix of silver paint and fishoil, which works well. I paint it on each individual stay with a small brush whilst suspended in a bosun's chair. The point of this post is to ask whether any of you have devised a quicker method of getting the paint onto the stay in situ? Regards, Richard ________________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE AOL Email account with unlimited storage. Experience Email and instant messaging together - chat while you mail and mail while you chat! Register for your free email account at http://free.aol.com.au| 19785|19785|2009-02-17 20:43:46|kingsknight4life|Stainless strength?|I will be building some parts for our boat and was wondering if sch 40 is as strong as solid bar in small diameters ie.less than 1" ? I noticed that some people use pipe to make cleats and others use rod? Is this just a case of using what's cheap and or available? Or are there advantages of one over the other? Maybe the differences in strenght and weight are negligible? Rowland| 19786|19786|2009-02-18 01:54:35|dejongralph|Chain plates|The SS pipe in chain plates against wear are welded in. Is this all around or just stitched? Thanks, Ralph| 19787|19777|2009-02-18 06:35:10|brianchabassol|Re: Beta marine 20 HP|Thanks guys, Just wanted to confirm what I had been reading. Brian --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Kubota are great engines , simple , well built and lots of parts > everywhere. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Cotter > wrote: > > > > Small Beta marine engines are Kubotas. If you are interested in > > running a dry exhaust, there are a lot of second hand Kubotas (the > > same Kubota models as the Beta Marine engines) out there and a few > > outfits that import gray market Kubotas from Japan. They cost a > > fraction of the Beta engines. There are a few 3 cylinder Kubotas > in > > the 12-20 hp range, but Beta only "marinized" the 2 cylinder Z > > engines. Kubota has a very strong reputation in the small diesel > > market. I've known a couple people with Betas and they are happy > with > > them. > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 9:20 AM, brianchabassol wrote: > > > > > Hi Brent > > > Wondering if you have had any runins with Betamarine engines? I > was > > > considering the 3 cylinder 20 HP for my 31. They also have a 14 > and 16 > > > in the same range but they Have 2 cylinders. > > > Any advice appreaciated > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19788|19728|2009-02-18 10:49:45|cyepler|Re: Composting head dimensions|I have been following the composting head thread, but is there a sketch or drawing of one available? If there is, could someone put it up in the file section? Or tell me where it is? I'd like to see a picture, they really are worth a thousand words when trying to understand how something works and is put together. Thanks, cyepler| 19789|19728|2009-02-18 10:55:23|Norm Moore|Re: Composting head dimensions|Here is a link showing an installation with many pictures http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/ewcompostingheadinstall.htm Norm Moore 559-645-5314 --- On Wed, 2/18/09, cyepler wrote: From: cyepler Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Composting head dimensions To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 7:49 AM I have been following the composting head thread, but is there a sketch or drawing of one available? If there is, could someone put it up in the file section? Or tell me where it is? I'd like to see a picture, they really are worth a thousand words when trying to understand how something works and is put together. Thanks, cyepler [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19790|19786|2009-02-18 17:41:24|brentswain38|Re: Chain plates|It should be welded all around to make it airtight, and thus avoid corrosion between the SS and the mild steel. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" wrote: > > The SS pipe in chain plates against wear are welded in. Is this all > around or just stitched? > > Thanks, > Ralph > | 19791|19785|2009-02-18 17:45:23|brentswain38|Re: Stainless strength?|It is nowhere near as strong for the same diameter, but for the 8 inch cleats , as long as you use sch 40, I think pipe is plenty strong enough. It is a matter of what's available. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > I will be building some parts for our boat and was wondering if sch 40 is as strong as solid bar in small diameters ie.less than 1" ? > > I noticed that some people use pipe to make cleats and others use rod? Is this just a case of using what's cheap and or available? Or are there advantages of one over the other? Maybe the differences in strenght and weight are negligible? > Rowland > | 19792|19728|2009-02-18 17:55:18|brentswain38|Re: Composting head dimensions|With the 3/4 inch lip around the conservative birth canal and the stainless cap on it there is no problem with standup pissing. The head being higher than a standard marine head, missing is far les likely . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Norm Moore wrote: > > Here is a link showing an installation with many pictures > > http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/ewcompostingheadinstall.htm > > Norm Moore > > 559-645-5314 > > --- On Wed, 2/18/09, cyepler wrote: > From: cyepler > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Composting head dimensions > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 7:49 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been following the composting head thread, but is there a sketch > > or drawing of one available? If there is, could someone put it up in > > the file section? Or tell me where it is? I'd like to see a picture, > > they really are worth a thousand words when trying to understand how > > something works and is put together. > > > > Thanks, > > > > cyepler > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19793|19793|2009-02-18 22:56:52|lachica31|Foam rubber suitable for Port Gaskets.|Hi Guys, In Brent's book he recommends to use neoprene rubber with sealant on each side as gasket material for ports. I Have been given a roll of EVA foam rubber (5mm thick) this stuff is very much like the pads that they sell to campers and backpackers for sleeping on (it may well be the same thing). It is also quite similar in feel to neoprene foam rubber but is a little stiffer and not quite as tear resistant. Research on the web reveals that the stuff is highly UV resistant but no mention of its use as gasket material. Brent (and all you guys) what do you think? Is it usable? Regards, Paul Thompson| 19794|19786|2009-02-19 04:08:17|dejongralph|Re: Chain plates|cheers --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It should be welded all around to make it airtight, and thus avoid > corrosion between the SS and the mild steel. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" > wrote: > > > > The SS pipe in chain plates against wear are welded in. Is this all > > around or just stitched? > > > > Thanks, > > Ralph > > > | 19795|19793|2009-02-19 10:36:52|SHANE ROTHWELL|Foam rubber suitable for Port Gaskets.|Posted by: "lachica31" pault@... lachica31 Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:56 pm (PST) Hi Guys, Found out the hard way that you can glue neoprene very effectively with Shoe Goo & the consistancy is very similar so you dont end up with hard spots (on knees I found but imagine the same effect with using it for gaskets) In Brent's book he recommends to use neoprene rubber with sealant on each side as gasket material for ports. I Have been given a roll of EVA foam rubber (5mm thick) this stuff is very much like the pads that they sell to campers and backpackers for sleeping on (it may well be the same thing). It is also quite similar in feel to neoprene foam rubber but is a little stiffer and not quite as tear resistant. Research on the web reveals that the stuff is highly UV resistant but no mention of its use as gasket material. Brent (and all you guys) what do you think? Is it usable? Regards, Paul Thompson __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/| 19796|19796|2009-02-19 12:39:36|de_anander|skeg cooling system|I've just repowered a Brent-style boat (Evan Shaler's copy of China Cloud, which I've owned since 2004). I'm not an expert marine diesel installer (that's an understatement) and am facing some uncertainty about the cooling system. The boat has skeg cooling (the skeg's full of antifreeze mix which circulates through long hose/pipe runs to the centre engine room). The level of fluid in the skeg is lower than the coolant intake and outflow of the new engine block. Will the engine coolant pump pull fluid up out of the skeg (about a foot of rise right at the engine room), or do I need to install a header tank higher than the entire engine cooling system and "overfill" the coolant system so there is no air space in the skeg and the header tank takes care of expansion? Or alternatively could I install a helper or lift pump, 12v, down at engine room floor level and push the fluid up into the engine? this would probably be cheaper and take up less space than a big header tank, and I could go on using the air space in the skeg for expansion. Last question: all of a sudden the origamiboats digest is appearing as formatted HTML in my mailbox. I don't use a mail agent that displays HTML so I can't read the digests any more. Is this some setting that I accidentally changed in my yahoogroups account, or did the moderator switch to HTML format for the digest? If it is my yahoo config then does anyone know where the option is to change it back to plain text (I have not yet found this option in the yahoo account config pages)? If it was the moderator, then may I plead for a return to plain text? thx de| 19797|19796|2009-02-19 13:51:26|brentswain38|Re: skeg cooling system|De You have two options. If your pump is a rubber impeller type , it should lift the coolant. If it is the cast iron type ,it wont. Then you need a header tank. Cast iron impellers are far tougher and more reliable. A header tank doesn't have to be huge. Mine is six inches diameter by 8 inches long. I prefer the header tank arangement. I hope to be in Nananimo in a couple of days, and can take a look at what you have, and discuss it with you. What kind of engine diid you put in? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "de_anander" wrote: > > > I've just repowered a Brent-style boat (Evan Shaler's copy of China > Cloud, which I've owned since 2004). I'm not an expert marine diesel > installer (that's an understatement) and am facing some uncertainty > about the cooling system. > > The boat has skeg cooling (the skeg's full of antifreeze mix which > circulates through long hose/pipe runs to the centre engine room). > The level of fluid in the skeg is lower than the coolant intake and > outflow of the new engine block. > > Will the engine coolant pump pull fluid up out of the skeg (about a > foot of rise right at the engine room), or do I need to install a > header tank higher than the entire engine cooling system and > "overfill" the coolant system so there is no air space in the skeg > and the header tank takes care of expansion? > > Or alternatively could I install a helper or lift pump, 12v, down at > engine room floor level and push the fluid up into the engine? this > would probably be cheaper and take up less space than a big header > tank, and I could go on using the air space in the skeg for expansion. > > Last question: all of a sudden the origamiboats digest is appearing > as formatted HTML in my mailbox. I don't use a mail agent that > displays HTML so I can't read the digests any more. Is this some > setting that I accidentally changed in my yahoogroups account, or did > the moderator switch to HTML format for the digest? If it is my > yahoo config then does anyone know where the option is to change it > back to plain text (I have not yet found this option in the yahoo > account config pages)? If it was the moderator, then may I plead for > a return to plain text? > > thx > > de > | 19798|19793|2009-02-19 13:55:31|brentswain38|Re: Foam rubber suitable for Port Gaskets.|I've used backpackers foam for insulating my forehatch.I thought it was closed cell but it soaked up water like a sponge during the ice age this January . I'm planning to change it for ethafoam, altho ethafoam has to be roughed up with a rasp to get urethane to stick to it well. I think it would leak around ports. Stick to neoprene closed cell foam Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > In Brent's book he recommends to use neoprene rubber with sealant on > each side as gasket material for ports. > > I Have been given a roll of EVA foam rubber (5mm thick) this stuff is > very much like the pads that they sell to campers and backpackers for > sleeping on (it may well be the same thing). It is also quite similar > in feel to neoprene foam rubber but is a little stiffer and not quite > as tear resistant. > > Research on the web reveals that the stuff is highly UV resistant but > no mention of its use as gasket material. > > Brent (and all you guys) what do you think? Is it usable? > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 19799|19793|2009-02-19 15:05:51|Carl Anderson|Re: Foam rubber suitable for Port Gaskets.|I used EDPM closed cell foam (1/4") on MOM. I got it here: http://www.materialscraps.com/ I lined every aluminum hatch with it. Made a great improvement (sound & insulation). Carl SV-MOM.com lachica31 wrote: > > > Hi Guys, > > In Brent's book he recommends to use neoprene rubber with sealant on > each side as gasket material for ports. > > I Have been given a roll of EVA foam rubber (5mm thick) this stuff is > very much like the pads that they sell to campers and backpackers for > sleeping on (it may well be the same thing). It is also quite similar > in feel to neoprene foam rubber but is a little stiffer and not quite > as tear resistant. > > Research on the web reveals that the stuff is highly UV resistant but > no mention of its use as gasket material. > > Brent (and all you guys) what do you think? Is it usable? > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > | 19800|19800|2009-02-21 12:39:34|michaelandmonica2003|steel hull constrution|we are looking to have a brent style hull made in the next year and are looking for a welder with experience with his methods to give us a price to take the hull to lock up.| 19801|19800|2009-02-21 12:57:25|Tom Mann|Re: steel hull constrution|Where are you located ? On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 9:39 AM, michaelandmonica2003 < michaelandmonica@...> wrote: > we are looking to have a brent style hull made in the next year and > are looking for a welder with experience with his methods to give us > a price to take the hull to lock up. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19802|19800|2009-02-21 13:48:20|Barney Treadway|steel hull constrution|Even though the final choice may be a private matter, it would be very helpful for others (me) to see the bid process and the various questions posted here on the list. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 09:57:24 To: Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel hull constrution Where are you located ? On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 9:39 AM, michaelandmonica2003 < michaelandmonica@...> wrote: > we are looking to have a brent style hull made in the next year and > are looking for a welder with experience with his methods to give us > a price to take the hull to lock up. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19803|19800|2009-02-21 15:19:00|brentswain38|Re: steel hull constrution|I'm available anywhere in Canada , or anywhere outside the US for that matter. I charge an hourly rate, plus expenses and meals . The owner provides the space , tools and materials, and works alongside me, until it gets to a stage where he can handle the rest. Where are you? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Barney Treadway" wrote: > > Even though the final choice may be a private matter, it would be very helpful for others (me) to see the bid process and the various questions posted here on the list. > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > > Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 09:57:24 > To: > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel hull constrution > > > Where are you located ? > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 9:39 AM, michaelandmonica2003 < > michaelandmonica@...> wrote: > > > we are looking to have a brent style hull made in the next year and > > are looking for a welder with experience with his methods to give us > > a price to take the hull to lock up. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19804|22|2009-02-21 21:18:24|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./285STUDYSAIL-FE22-09.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Imagiro 315. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./285STUDYSAIL-FE22-09.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 19805|19800|2009-02-22 01:58:15|michaelandmonica2003|Re: steel hull constrution|we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an approximate cost for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. we would like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 and do not know how much to put aside for the hull. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'm available anywhere in Canada , or anywhere outside the US for > that matter. I charge an hourly rate, plus expenses and meals . The > owner provides the space , tools and materials, and works alongside > me, until it gets to a stage where he can handle the rest. > Where are you? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Barney Treadway" > wrote: > > > > Even though the final choice may be a private matter, it would be > very helpful for others (me) to see the bid process and the various > questions posted here on the list. > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mann > > > > Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 09:57:24 > > To: > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel hull constrution > > > > > > Where are you located ? > > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 9:39 AM, michaelandmonica2003 < > > michaelandmonica@> wrote: > > > > > we are looking to have a brent style hull made in the next year > and > > > are looking for a welder with experience with his methods to > give us > > > a price to take the hull to lock up. > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19806|19800|2009-02-22 02:07:08|michaelandmonica2003|Re: steel hull constrution|sure I can post the numbers--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Barney Treadway" wrote: > > Even though the final choice may be a private matter, it would be very helpful for others (me) to see the bid process and the various questions posted here on the list. > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mann > > Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 09:57:24 > To: > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel hull constrution > > > Where are you located ? > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 9:39 AM, michaelandmonica2003 < > michaelandmonica@...> wrote: > > > we are looking to have a brent style hull made in the next year and > > are looking for a welder with experience with his methods to give us > > a price to take the hull to lock up. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19807|19800|2009-02-22 02:41:20|kingsknight4life|Re: steel hull constrution|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Barney Treadway" wrote: > > Even though the final choice may be a private matter, it would be very helpful for others (me) to see the bid process ..." Not sure if you'll see a "bid process" posted or a bid process at all. Pretty much Brent and Evan are the two guys on the island building these boats professionally, although there may be 1 or 2 others, like Ken. I think they each have their hourly rates and build until completed, as far as I know they don't give quotes for a completed hull. I may be wrong though. : ) it'll be interesting to see. good luck either way and welcome to the group. Rowland| 19808|19800|2009-02-22 09:40:19|Tom Mann|Re: steel hull constrution|Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal price may jump or lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks every time I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just time and material. Tom On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica2003 < michaelandmonica@...> wrote: > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an approximate cost > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. we would > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 and do > not know how much to put aside for the hull. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19809|19728|2009-02-22 13:53:48|mark hamill|Re: Composting head dimensions|Brent I I am making a plan of the composting toilet for general info. When you say "...The lip around the Conservative birth canal is 3/4 inch high." are you saying the this is above the lip of the CBC?? Doesn't that make it difficult to clean?? Markh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just cecked the dimensions for the composter head top. The bowl > is 4 1/2 inches deep at the front and 3 1/2 inches deep at the back. > It is 8 inches wide by 11 inches long. The outside dimensions for > the seat are 12 inches wide by 14 1/2 inches long. The Conservative > birth canal is 4 inches diameter and 2 inches from the back of the > bowl. The liquids drain is one inch diameter. The lip around the > Conservative birth canal is 3/4 inch high. > Taking a stainless 8 inch mixing bowl and laying up a fibreglas > bowl inside it, cutting the FG bowl in half and laying up an extra 3 > inch wide strip joining the two halves should give you the right > dimensions for the bowl , either for the bowl or the mold . Cutting > it for the right depth at both ends lets you put it on a board and > put the raised lip around the ends , and the tory bith canal for the > full mold. > I think that the idea of a rotary mold is far too expensive when > compared to fibreglas molded heads. I think this could become a > cottage industry for anyone who wants to mold the parts and sell > them to anyone wanting to build their own composter, with vet y > little invested.. It could be done for a fraction the cost of > Airheads or Natures head, without the need for the Chinese. The > lower price should increase the demand exponentialy. > Some have said that the musty smell makes you unpopular in > marinas, but I think one could weld in a box on the vent pipe into > which one could insert one of those deoderisers you see in urinals > ( the ones responsible for the grafitti saying "Don't eat the big > blue cookie). This could be easily replaced from time to time and > the vent air would blow past it without retriction. > I have found that when the anerobic bacteria takes over and things > get smelly, adding a package of sanibac septic tank bacteria > eliminates the anerobic smelly bacterial quickly. > The lid could be one from an existing head as you won't get > anythingfor your used head anyway, or a plyuwood one could be easily > made up. A plastic 2 inch ID thru hull could be the vent outlet. > Brent > | 19810|19810|2009-02-23 22:11:09|James Pronk|Anchor Winch|I have started to build a few parts for a BS 36 and I am starting on the anchor winch. I have a piece of 1/2" 316 ss, 9" in diameter. I was going to cut square teeth in it so I could use it to let out cable slowly as well as bringing in the anchor. I will try to post some photos of what I was thinking of doing. Any thoughts from the group on this? Thank you, James Pronk| 19811|19800|2009-02-24 14:47:25|peter_d_wiley|Re: steel hull constrution|FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm plate. It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for the bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as the hull is 5mm thick. Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or remaining steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and need another 300 kg. Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going to build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also need to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard of fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers & joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have plywood. A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the price his suppliers give for new material because not only is time money, chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) entertainment. That's different. My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else to do it. Works out pretty close in my experience. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal price may jump or > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks every time > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just time and > material. > Tom > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica2003 < > michaelandmonica@...> wrote: > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an approximate cost > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. we would > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 and do > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19812|19800|2009-02-24 17:28:18|brentswain38|Re: steel hull constrution|When working alongside the owner, there is absolutly no way of knowing in advance how much he will be able to do for himself , and how much I will be required to do. On some boats I simply mark things out , show him how to put bullwarks and stringers on, then leave him alone for a few days to cut and weld things up . Working in winter , in cooler weather it takes far less time to do a given job, than working in summer heat, when you could fry eggs on the plate. On others I have to do everything. I work for $30 an hour , plus expenses, meals, transportation and accomodation, whatever it takes. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Barney Treadway" > wrote: > > > > Even though the final choice may be a private matter, it would be > very helpful for others (me) to see the bid process ..." > > Not sure if you'll see a "bid process" posted or a bid process at all. > Pretty much Brent and Evan are the two guys on the island building > these boats professionally, although there may be 1 or 2 others, like > Ken. I think they each have their hourly rates and build until > completed, as far as I know they don't give quotes for a completed > hull. I may be wrong though. : ) it'll be interesting to see. > good luck either way and welcome to the group. > Rowland > | 19813|19800|2009-02-25 16:08:35|brentswain38|Re: steel hull constrution|You can make a huge amount of advance progress by welding up all the detail bits and pieces, like anchor winch, bow roller , hatches, self steering, mast tabernackle and fittings, handrails, cut stanchions to length and saddle them top and bottom,bend bow pulpit,make anchors, cleats, scrounging lead ,paint, plywood, etc etc. This can be done without putting out a lot of cash, or needing a building site. Detail is over 33% of the metal work. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > When working alongside the owner, there is absolutly no way of knowing > in advance how much he will be able to do for himself , and how much > I will be required to do. On some boats I simply mark things out , > show him how to put bullwarks and stringers on, then leave him alone > for a few days to cut and weld things up . > Working in winter , in cooler weather it takes far less time to do > a given job, than working in summer heat, when you could fry eggs on > the plate. On others I have to do everything. > I work for $30 an hour , plus expenses, meals, transportation and > accomodation, whatever it takes. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Barney Treadway" > > wrote: > > > > > > Even though the final choice may be a private matter, it would be > > very helpful for others (me) to see the bid process ..." > > > > Not sure if you'll see a "bid process" posted or a bid process at all. > > Pretty much Brent and Evan are the two guys on the island building > > these boats professionally, although there may be 1 or 2 others, like > > Ken. I think they each have their hourly rates and build until > > completed, as far as I know they don't give quotes for a completed > > hull. I may be wrong though. : ) it'll be interesting to see. > > good luck either way and welcome to the group. > > Rowland > > > | 19815|19800|2009-02-28 18:18:05|brentswain38|Re: steel hull constrution|Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more traditionally built boats. Ask the scrap dealers what they will pay you for scrap lead, then put an add in the buy and sell and offer wheelbalancing shops a couple of cents more. Start your scrounging a couple of years before starting the hull . The longer you have the less it will cost you. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm plate. > It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for the > bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as the > hull is 5mm thick. > > Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or remaining > steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. > > Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and need > another 300 kg. > > Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty > tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. > > To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going to > build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also need > to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard of > fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers & > joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard > doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand > rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have plywood. > > A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the price > his suppliers give for new material because not only is time money, > chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full > hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) > entertainment. That's different. > > My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and > double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else to do > it. Works out pretty close in my experience. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. > > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal price may > jump or > > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks > every time > > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just time and > > material. > > Tom > > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica2003 < > > michaelandmonica@> wrote: > > > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an approximate cost > > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. we would > > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 and do > > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 19816|19800|2009-02-28 18:31:04|James Pronk|Re: steel hull constrution|Hello Brent That is close to what I have been quoted for steel. Still looking for 36' x 8' 3/16 plate. James --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more > traditionally built boats. > Ask the scrap dealers what they will pay you for scrap lead, then > put an add in the buy and sell and offer wheelbalancing shops a > couple of cents more. > Start your scrounging a couple of years before starting the hull . > The longer you have the less it will cost you. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm > plate. > > It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for > the > > bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as the > > hull is 5mm thick. > > > > Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or > remaining > > steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. > > > > Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and > need > > another 300 kg. > > > > Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty > > tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. > > > > To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going to > > build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also > need > > to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard > of > > fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers & > > joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard > > doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand > > rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have > plywood. > > > > A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the > price > > his suppliers give for new material because not only is time money, > > chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full > > hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) > > entertainment. That's different. > > > > My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and > > double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else > to do > > it. Works out pretty close in my experience. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. > > > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal price > may > > jump or > > > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks > > every time > > > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just > time and > > > material. > > > Tom > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica2003 < > > > michaelandmonica@> wrote: > > > > > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an approximate > cost > > > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. > we would > > > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 > and do > > > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 19817|19800|2009-02-28 18:53:45|martin demers|Re: steel hull constrution|James, last time I checked, one year ago, I was able to get 40 ft lenght of 3/16 plate, here in the Montreal area. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:31:02 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution Hello Brent That is close to what I have been quoted for steel. Still looking for 36' x 8' 3/16 plate. James --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more > traditionally built boats. > Ask the scrap dealers what they will pay you for scrap lead, then > put an add in the buy and sell and offer wheelbalancing shops a > couple of cents more. > Start your scrounging a couple of years before starting the hull . > The longer you have the less it will cost you. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm > plate. > > It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for > the > > bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as the > > hull is 5mm thick. > > > > Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or > remaining > > steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. > > > > Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and > need > > another 300 kg. > > > > Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty > > tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. > > > > To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going to > > build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also > need > > to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard > of > > fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers & > > joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard > > doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand > > rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have > plywood. > > > > A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the > price > > his suppliers give for new material because not only is time money, > > chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full > > hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) > > entertainment. That's different. > > > > My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and > > double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else > to do > > it. Works out pretty close in my experience. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. > > > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal price > may > > jump or > > > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks > > every time > > > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just > time and > > > material. > > > Tom > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica2003 < > > > michaelandmonica@> wrote: > > > > > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an approximate > cost > > > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. > we would > > > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 > and do > > > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19818|19800|2009-02-28 21:41:28|Gordon Schnell|Re: steel hull constrution|They are available in Vancouver, BC as well. They just roll the steel off the roll and cut it whrer you like. Gord martin demers wrote: > > > James, last time I checked, one year ago, I was able to get 40 ft > lenght of 3/16 plate, here in the Montreal area. Martin. > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: jpronk1@yahoo. ca > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:31:02 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution > > Hello Brent > > That is close to what I have been quoted for steel. Still looking for > > 36' x 8' 3/16 plate. > > James > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows > > > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more > > > traditionally built boats. > > > Ask the scrap dealers what they will pay you for scrap lead, then > > > put an add in the buy and sell and offer wheelbalancing shops a > > > couple of cents more. > > > Start your scrounging a couple of years before starting the hull . > > > The longer you have the less it will cost you. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , "peter_d_wiley" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm > > > plate. > > > > It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for > > > the > > > > bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as > > the > > > > hull is 5mm thick. > > > > > > > > Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or > > > remaining > > > > steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. > > > > > > > > Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and > > > need > > > > another 300 kg. > > > > > > > > Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty > > > > tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. > > > > > > > > To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going > > to > > > > build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also > > > need > > > > to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard > > > of > > > > fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers > > & > > > > joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard > > > > doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand > > > > rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have > > > plywood. > > > > > > > > A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the > > > price > > > > his suppliers give for new material because not only is time > > money, > > > > chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full > > > > hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) > > > > entertainment. That's different. > > > > > > > > My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and > > > > double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else > > > to do > > > > it. Works out pretty close in my experience. > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. > > > > > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal > > price > > > may > > > > jump or > > > > > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks > > > > every time > > > > > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just > > > time and > > > > > material. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica200 3 < > > > > > michaelandmonica@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an > > approximate > > > cost > > > > > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. > > > we would > > > > > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 > > > and do > > > > > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 19819|19800|2009-02-28 21:50:50|Gary H. Lucas|Re: steel hull constrution|They probably run it through a flattener too, otherwise it would be a REAL bitch to work with! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Schnell" To: Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution > They are available in Vancouver, BC as well. They just roll the steel > off the roll and cut it whrer you like. > Gord > > > martin demers wrote: >> >> >> James, last time I checked, one year ago, I was able to get 40 ft >> lenght of 3/16 plate, here in the Montreal area. Martin. >> >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> >> From: jpronk1@yahoo. ca >> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:31:02 +0000 >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution >> >> Hello Brent >> >> That is close to what I have been quoted for steel. Still looking for >> >> 36' x 8' 3/16 plate. >> >> James >> >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> , "brentswain38" >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows >> >> > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more >> >> > traditionally built boats. >> >> > Ask the scrap dealers what they will pay you for scrap lead, then >> >> > put an add in the buy and sell and offer wheelbalancing shops a >> >> > couple of cents more. >> >> > Start your scrounging a couple of years before starting the hull . >> >> > The longer you have the less it will cost you. >> >> > Brent >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> , "peter_d_wiley" >> >> > wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm >> >> > plate. >> >> > > It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for >> >> > the >> >> > > bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as >> >> the >> >> > > hull is 5mm thick. >> >> > > >> >> > > Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or >> >> > remaining >> >> > > steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. >> >> > > >> >> > > Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and >> >> > need >> >> > > another 300 kg. >> >> > > >> >> > > Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty >> >> > > tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. >> >> > > >> >> > > To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going >> >> to >> >> > > build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also >> >> > need >> >> > > to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard >> >> > of >> >> > > fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers >> >> & >> >> > > joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard >> >> > > doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand >> >> > > rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have >> >> > plywood. >> >> > > >> >> > > A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the >> >> > price >> >> > > his suppliers give for new material because not only is time >> >> money, >> >> > > chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full >> >> > > hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) >> >> > > entertainment. That's different. >> >> > > >> >> > > My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and >> >> > > double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else >> >> > to do >> >> > > it. Works out pretty close in my experience. >> >> > > >> >> > > PDW >> >> > > >> >> > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> , Tom Mann wrote: >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. >> >> > > > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal >> >> price >> >> > may >> >> > > jump or >> >> > > > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks >> >> > > every time >> >> > > > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just >> >> > time and >> >> > > > material. >> >> > > > Tom >> >> > > > >> >> > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica200 3 < >> >> > > > michaelandmonica@ > wrote: >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an >> >> approximate >> >> > cost >> >> > > > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. >> >> > we would >> >> > > > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 >> >> > and do >> >> > > > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> >> >> > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ! Groups Links >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > | 19820|19820|2009-03-01 00:52:35|theboilerflue|extrusions|Anyone got any suggestions on getting extrusions for the sail track on the boom? Stainless would work as well. Does AJ Forsyth carry anything like that? Also Brent in your book it says one can get the extrusion for the roller furler, AJ Forsyth carry that? I put the engine in the other day, I don't imagine I have to go 50/50 with the anti-freeze in the skeg? maybe 25%? I figured the skeg to be around 15 gallons total does this seem about right on a 36?| 19821|19800|2009-03-01 04:27:14|peter_d_wiley|Re: steel hull constrution|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more > traditionally built boats. Actually it tells you nothing of the kind, unless you're simplistic. To make that comparison, first you'd need to specify how many kilos of steel were in the hull and then how many dollars per kilo you were paying for the steel, then the exchange rate on the day. Then you'd need to specify how much lead was needed to get the hull to its DWL. As of this evening, $12K AUD is $9643 CAD. Now we're down to $1643 difference. How many kilos of steel are you specifying for the 36' hull and how many kilos of lead ballast do you need? Are you talking new prices for steel or scrap prices? You have an interesting habit of making claims about materials prices but it turns out that it was a once in a lifetime deal that can't be counted on. The prices I've quoted for steel are for new stock ordered direct from the steel merchants. Lead is currently $0.42c/lb USD according to the LME and falling. Scrounging for lead is a good idea, it's what I've been doing for over a year now. I have a tonne already. I also have pretty much all the s/steel I need for trim etc and all the electrodes both mild and stainless. Given that from your own figures your 36' design is a full tonne heavier than a Colvin 38' Witch I don't think you're in a real strong position to be making claims about weight. PDW| 19822|19800|2009-03-01 11:17:40|Gordon Schnell|Re: steel hull constrution|If memory serves me, they ran it thru a "3 roller" set which bent it "reverse camber" as it came off the roll. The result was a perfectly flat sheet, although iron plate is pretty easily bent and conforms to the trailer deck, the floor, the ground or whatever else it lands on. Gord Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > They probably run it through a flattener too, otherwise it would be a > REAL > bitch to work with! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gordon Schnell" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:41 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution > > > They are available in Vancouver, BC as well. They just roll the steel > > off the roll and cut it whrer you like. > > Gord > > > > > > martin demers wrote: > >> > >> > >> James, last time I checked, one year ago, I was able to get 40 ft > >> lenght of 3/16 plate, here in the Montreal area. Martin. > >> > >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> > >> From: jpronk1@yahoo. ca > >> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:31:02 +0000 > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution > >> > >> Hello Brent > >> > >> That is close to what I have been quoted for steel. Still looking for > >> > >> 36' x 8' 3/16 plate. > >> > >> James > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> , "brentswain38" > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows > >> > >> > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more > >> > >> > traditionally built boats. > >> > >> > Ask the scrap dealers what they will pay you for scrap lead, then > >> > >> > put an add in the buy and sell and offer wheelbalancing shops a > >> > >> > couple of cents more. > >> > >> > Start your scrounging a couple of years before starting the hull . > >> > >> > The longer you have the less it will cost you. > >> > >> > Brent > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> , "peter_d_wiley" > >> > >> > wrote: > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm > >> > >> > plate. > >> > >> > > It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for > >> > >> > the > >> > >> > > bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as > >> > >> the > >> > >> > > hull is 5mm thick. > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or > >> > >> > remaining > >> > >> > > steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and > >> > >> > need > >> > >> > > another 300 kg. > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty > >> > >> > > tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going > >> > >> to > >> > >> > > build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also > >> > >> > need > >> > >> > > to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard > >> > >> > of > >> > >> > > fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers > >> > >> & > >> > >> > > joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard > >> > >> > > doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand > >> > >> > > rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have > >> > >> > plywood. > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the > >> > >> > price > >> > >> > > his suppliers give for new material because not only is time > >> > >> money, > >> > >> > > chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full > >> > >> > > hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) > >> > >> > > entertainment. That's different. > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and > >> > >> > > double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else > >> > >> > to do > >> > >> > > it. Works out pretty close in my experience. > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > PDW > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> , Tom Mann wrote: > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. > >> > >> > > > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal > >> > >> price > >> > >> > may > >> > >> > > jump or > >> > >> > > > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks > >> > >> > > every time > >> > >> > > > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just > >> > >> > time and > >> > >> > > > material. > >> > >> > > > Tom > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica200 3 < > >> > >> > > > michaelandmonica@ > wrote: > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an > >> > >> approximate > >> > >> > cost > >> > >> > > > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. > >> > >> > we would > >> > >> > > > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 > >> > >> > and do > >> > >> > > > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> > >> > >> > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > >> > > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ! Groups Links > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > > > > > > | 19823|19800|2009-03-01 21:53:22|Gary H. Lucas|Re: steel hull constrution|Gordon, It conforms to the floor and such while it is in a big sheet and you aren't trying to match a set of edges. Then you realize that if it has any bend in the wrong direction it becomes very difficult to work with. I ran in to this a short time ago building some big steel tanks that I designed. I lapped the joint in the wrong direction and the plate wasn't flat. The welder had a hell of a time pulling it together. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Schnell" To: Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution > If memory serves me, they ran it thru a "3 roller" set which bent it > "reverse camber" as it came off the roll. The result was a perfectly > flat sheet, although iron plate is pretty easily bent and conforms to > the trailer deck, the floor, the ground or whatever else it lands on. > Gord > > > Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> >> They probably run it through a flattener too, otherwise it would be a >> REAL >> bitch to work with! >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gordon Schnell" > >> To: > > >> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:41 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution >> >> > They are available in Vancouver, BC as well. They just roll the steel >> > off the roll and cut it whrer you like. >> > Gord >> > >> > >> > martin demers wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> James, last time I checked, one year ago, I was able to get 40 ft >> >> lenght of 3/16 plate, here in the Montreal area. Martin. >> >> >> >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> >> >> >> From: jpronk1@yahoo. ca >> >> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:31:02 +0000 >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution >> >> >> >> Hello Brent >> >> >> >> That is close to what I have been quoted for steel. Still looking for >> >> >> >> 36' x 8' 3/16 plate. >> >> >> >> James >> >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> >> , "brentswain38" >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows >> >> >> >> > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more >> >> >> >> > traditionally built boats. >> >> >> >> > Ask the scrap dealers what they will pay you for scrap lead, then >> >> >> >> > put an add in the buy and sell and offer wheelbalancing shops a >> >> >> >> > couple of cents more. >> >> >> >> > Start your scrounging a couple of years before starting the hull . >> >> >> >> > The longer you have the less it will cost you. >> >> >> >> > Brent >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> >> , "peter_d_wiley" >> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > > FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm >> >> >> >> > plate. >> >> >> >> > > It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for >> >> >> >> > the >> >> >> >> > > bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> > > hull is 5mm thick. >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > > Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or >> >> >> >> > remaining >> >> >> >> > > steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > > Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and >> >> >> >> > need >> >> >> >> > > another 300 kg. >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > > Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty >> >> >> >> > > tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > > To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> > > build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also >> >> >> >> > need >> >> >> >> > > to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard >> >> >> >> > of >> >> >> >> > > fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers >> >> >> >> & >> >> >> >> > > joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard >> >> >> >> > > doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand >> >> >> >> > > rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have >> >> >> >> > plywood. >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > > A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the >> >> >> >> > price >> >> >> >> > > his suppliers give for new material because not only is time >> >> >> >> money, >> >> >> >> > > chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full >> >> >> >> > > hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) >> >> >> >> > > entertainment. That's different. >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > > My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and >> >> >> >> > > double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else >> >> >> >> > to do >> >> >> >> > > it. Works out pretty close in my experience. >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > > PDW >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> >> , Tom Mann wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. >> >> >> >> > > > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal >> >> >> >> price >> >> >> >> > may >> >> >> >> > > jump or >> >> >> >> > > > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks >> >> >> >> > > every time >> >> >> >> > > > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just >> >> >> >> > time and >> >> >> >> > > > material. >> >> >> >> > > > Tom >> >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica200 3 < >> >> >> >> > > > michaelandmonica@ > wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an >> >> >> >> approximate >> >> >> >> > cost >> >> >> >> > > > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. >> >> >> >> > we would >> >> >> >> > > > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 >> >> >> >> > and do >> >> >> >> > > > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> >> >> > > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > > | 19824|19800|2009-03-01 22:47:59|Carl Anderson|Re: steel hull constrution|So with your 13% sales tax in BC the total would be $9040. Yes prices have come down since we bought our steel in 2006. Carl sv-mom.com brentswain38 wrote: > > > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more > traditionally built boats. > Ask the scrap dealers what they will pay you for scrap lead, then > put an add in the buy and sell and offer wheelbalancing shops a > couple of cents more. > Start your scrounging a couple of years before starting the hull . > The longer you have the less it will cost you. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm > plate. > > It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for > the > > bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as the > > hull is 5mm thick. > > > > Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or > remaining > > steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. > > > > Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and > need > > another 300 kg. > > > > Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty > > tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. > > > > To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going to > > build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also > need > > to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard > of > > fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers & > > joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard > > doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand > > rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have > plywood. > > > > A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the > price > > his suppliers give for new material because not only is time money, > > chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full > > hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) > > entertainment. That's different. > > > > My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and > > double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else > to do > > it. Works out pretty close in my experience. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. > > > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal price > may > > jump or > > > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks > > every time > > > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just > time and > > > material. > > > Tom > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica2003 < > > > michaelandmonica@> wrote: > > > > > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an approximate > cost > > > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. > we would > > > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 > and do > > > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > | 19825|19820|2009-03-01 22:49:44|Carl Anderson|Re: extrusions|Haidan try Yachttech in Sidney. Carl sv-mom.com theboilerflue wrote: > > > Anyone got any suggestions on getting extrusions for the sail track on > the boom? Stainless would work as well. Does AJ Forsyth carry anything > like that? > Also Brent in your book it says one can get the extrusion for the > roller furler, AJ Forsyth carry that? > I put the engine in the other day, I don't imagine I have to go 50/50 > with the anti-freeze in the skeg? maybe 25%? I figured the skeg to be > around 15 gallons total does this seem about right on a 36? > > | 19826|19800|2009-03-02 04:26:21|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: steel hull constrution|Global steel prices have fluctuated wildly over the last 8 years ... From around 400$/ton to 1200$/ton ... where the quantities we need to buy for steel hulls usually are relatively close to the market price+margin. At this time, they are falling fast, and likely to fall further. The demand from China, quoted as the main source for the large increase, has apparently totally dried up. I suspect that next summer/fall might be an excellent time to start buying. This ref: shows prices falling at around 20-25%/quarter. http://www.steelonthenet.com/prices.html I further suspect that we might be able to buy at the maybe 600$/level per ton, especially for a big purchase (2 boats at once, a very large one, etc). There are and will be many wholesalers/suppliers closing shop. Buying from them, it may be possible to get these at distressed prices, ie very cheap, if You have cash in hand, and are willing to accept what they have in stock. Carl Anderson wrote: > > So with your 13% sales tax in BC the total would be $9040. > Yes prices have come down since we bought our steel in 2006. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > | 19827|19820|2009-03-02 16:38:49|brentswain38|Re: extrusions|I've heard there is a place in Sidney BC that has the sail track. I havn't bothered with track on the boom, going loose footed for the main. In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Anyone got any suggestions on getting extrusions for the sail track on > the boom? Stainless would work as well. Does AJ Forsyth carry anything > like that? > Also Brent in your book it says one can get the extrusion for the > roller furler, AJ Forsyth carry that? > I put the engine in the other day, I don't imagine I have to go 50/50 > with the anti-freeze in the skeg? maybe 25%? I figured the skeg to be > around 15 gallons total does this seem about right on a 36? > | 19828|19800|2009-03-02 16:51:31|brentswain38|Re: steel hull constrution|I remember seeing a design for a 30 footer with 4,000 lbs of framing and 1/8th inch plate. I was once asked to plate a Weston Farmer tahiti ketch in Califiornia . The framing was completely done, a horrendous amount of work. I told the owner I could build him a 36 alongside the framework with a fraction the time and expense of simply framing the abortion, and get much better results. When you use 1/8th inch plate and the total is anywhere near the same weight as a similar sized origamiboat, then it is safe to assume that the rest of the weight is in totally redundant bits and pieces and you are looking at a huge amount of useless weight and a horrendous amount of totally redundant and needless work. Colvins are a prime example of such foolishness. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows > > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more > > traditionally built boats. > > Actually it tells you nothing of the kind, unless you're simplistic. > > To make that comparison, first you'd need to specify how many kilos of > steel were in the hull and then how many dollars per kilo you were > paying for the steel, then the exchange rate on the day. Then you'd > need to specify how much lead was needed to get the hull to its DWL. > > As of this evening, $12K AUD is $9643 CAD. Now we're down to $1643 > difference. How many kilos of steel are you specifying for the 36' > hull and how many kilos of lead ballast do you need? Are you talking > new prices for steel or scrap prices? You have an interesting habit of > making claims about materials prices but it turns out that it was a > once in a lifetime deal that can't be counted on. The prices I've > quoted for steel are for new stock ordered direct from the steel > merchants. > > Lead is currently $0.42c/lb USD according to the LME and falling. > Scrounging for lead is a good idea, it's what I've been doing for over > a year now. I have a tonne already. I also have pretty much all the > s/steel I need for trim etc and all the electrodes both mild and > stainless. > > Given that from your own figures your 36' design is a full tonne > heavier than a Colvin 38' Witch I don't think you're in a real strong > position to be making claims about weight. > > PDW > | 19829|19820|2009-03-02 16:55:32|brentswain38|Re: extrusions|Friends have bought the 1 1/4 inch aluminium sch 40 pipe with the slot in it from Forsyth. 25% is probably OK , but stronger gives you better anti corrosion in the long run. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Anyone got any suggestions on getting extrusions for the sail track on > the boom? Stainless would work as well. Does AJ Forsyth carry anything > like that? > Also Brent in your book it says one can get the extrusion for the > roller furler, AJ Forsyth carry that? > I put the engine in the other day, I don't imagine I have to go 50/50 > with the anti-freeze in the skeg? maybe 25%? I figured the skeg to be > around 15 gallons total does this seem about right on a 36? > | 19830|19800|2009-03-02 16:58:11|brentswain38|Re: steel hull constrution|I've never had that problem or heard of any of my clients having it, but I guess there is a first time for everything.Having worked on rolls in the past, it seems that what you got was the beginning of the roll which should have been sheered off as soon as it came out of the rolls. Someone trying to nickel and dime you. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Gordon, > It conforms to the floor and such while it is in a big sheet and you aren't > trying to match a set of edges. Then you realize that if it has any bend in > the wrong direction it becomes very difficult to work with. I ran in to > this a short time ago building some big steel tanks that I designed. I > lapped the joint in the wrong direction and the plate wasn't flat. The > welder had a hell of a time pulling it together. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gordon Schnell" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:17 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution > > > > If memory serves me, they ran it thru a "3 roller" set which bent it > > "reverse camber" as it came off the roll. The result was a perfectly > > flat sheet, although iron plate is pretty easily bent and conforms to > > the trailer deck, the floor, the ground or whatever else it lands on. > > Gord > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas wrote: > >> > >> They probably run it through a flattener too, otherwise it would be a > >> REAL > >> bitch to work with! > >> > >> Gary H. Lucas > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Gordon Schnell" > > >> To: >> > > >> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:41 PM > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution > >> > >> > They are available in Vancouver, BC as well. They just roll the steel > >> > off the roll and cut it whrer you like. > >> > Gord > >> > > >> > > >> > martin demers wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> James, last time I checked, one year ago, I was able to get 40 ft > >> >> lenght of 3/16 plate, here in the Montreal area. Martin. > >> >> > >> >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> >> > >> >> From: jpronk1@yahoo. ca > >> >> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:31:02 +0000 > >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution > >> >> > >> >> Hello Brent > >> >> > >> >> That is close to what I have been quoted for steel. Still looking for > >> >> > >> >> 36' x 8' 3/16 plate. > >> >> > >> >> James > >> >> > >> >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> >> , "brentswain38" > >> >> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows > >> >> > >> >> > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more > >> >> > >> >> > traditionally built boats. > >> >> > >> >> > Ask the scrap dealers what they will pay you for scrap lead, then > >> >> > >> >> > put an add in the buy and sell and offer wheelbalancing shops a > >> >> > >> >> > couple of cents more. > >> >> > >> >> > Start your scrounging a couple of years before starting the hull . > >> >> > >> >> > The longer you have the less it will cost you. > >> >> > >> >> > Brent > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> >> , "peter_d_wiley" > >> >> > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm > >> >> > >> >> > plate. > >> >> > >> >> > > It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for > >> >> > >> >> > the > >> >> > >> >> > > bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as > >> >> > >> >> the > >> >> > >> >> > > hull is 5mm thick. > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or > >> >> > >> >> > remaining > >> >> > >> >> > > steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and > >> >> > >> >> > need > >> >> > >> >> > > another 300 kg. > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty > >> >> > >> >> > > tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going > >> >> > >> >> to > >> >> > >> >> > > build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also > >> >> > >> >> > need > >> >> > >> >> > > to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard > >> >> > >> >> > of > >> >> > >> >> > > fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers > >> >> > >> >> & > >> >> > >> >> > > joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard > >> >> > >> >> > > doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand > >> >> > >> >> > > rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have > >> >> > >> >> > plywood. > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the > >> >> > >> >> > price > >> >> > >> >> > > his suppliers give for new material because not only is time > >> >> > >> >> money, > >> >> > >> >> > > chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full > >> >> > >> >> > > hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) > >> >> > >> >> > > entertainment. That's different. > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and > >> >> > >> >> > > double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else > >> >> > >> >> > to do > >> >> > >> >> > > it. Works out pretty close in my experience. > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > PDW > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> >> , Tom Mann wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. > >> >> > >> >> > > > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal > >> >> > >> >> price > >> >> > >> >> > may > >> >> > >> >> > > jump or > >> >> > >> >> > > > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks > >> >> > >> >> > > every time > >> >> > >> >> > > > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just > >> >> > >> >> > time and > >> >> > >> >> > > > material. > >> >> > >> >> > > > Tom > >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica200 3 < > >> >> > >> >> > > > michaelandmonica@ > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an > >> >> > >> >> approximate > >> >> > >> >> > cost > >> >> > >> >> > > > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. > >> >> > >> >> > we would > >> >> > >> >> > > > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 > >> >> > >> >> > and do > >> >> > >> >> > > > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. > >> >> > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> >> > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> >> > >> >> > > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ! Groups Links > >> >> > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > >> >> > >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > | 19831|19800|2009-03-02 22:01:12|James Pronk|Re: steel hull constrution|Martin, who in Montreal has the 40' length of 3/16 plate I will see if I can get it from there. Thank you, James Pronk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > James, last time I checked, one year ago, I was able to get 40 ft lenght of 3/16 plate, here in the Montreal area. Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:31:02 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Brent > > That is close to what I have been quoted for steel. Still looking for > > 36' x 8' 3/16 plate. > > James > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows > > > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more > > > traditionally built boats. > > > Ask the scrap dealers what they will pay you for scrap lead, then > > > put an add in the buy and sell and offer wheelbalancing shops a > > > couple of cents more. > > > Start your scrounging a couple of years before starting the hull . > > > The longer you have the less it will cost you. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm > > > plate. > > > > It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for > > > the > > > > bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as > > the > > > > hull is 5mm thick. > > > > > > > > Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or > > > remaining > > > > steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. > > > > > > > > Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and > > > need > > > > another 300 kg. > > > > > > > > Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty > > > > tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. > > > > > > > > To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going > > to > > > > build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also > > > need > > > > to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard > > > of > > > > fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers > > & > > > > joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard > > > > doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand > > > > rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have > > > plywood. > > > > > > > > A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the > > > price > > > > his suppliers give for new material because not only is time > > money, > > > > chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full > > > > hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) > > > > entertainment. That's different. > > > > > > > > My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and > > > > double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else > > > to do > > > > it. Works out pretty close in my experience. > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. > > > > > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal > > price > > > may > > > > jump or > > > > > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks > > > > every time > > > > > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just > > > time and > > > > > material. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica2003 < > > > > > michaelandmonica@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an > > approximate > > > cost > > > > > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. > > > we would > > > > > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 > > > and do > > > > > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19832|19800|2009-03-03 05:05:24|cokedrum|Re: steel hull constrution|Very observant post Forgive me if im the one mistaken but you mention your quote for the 38' Colvin comes to 12kAUD What was the total weight of the steel your quote refers too? Are you refering to just the 4mm plate used to plate the hull? Does this also include all the steel for framing/decking? Does this include the lead ballast? Many unanswered questions here, one might use the argument that saying that a current quote of 12kAUD is enough to build a 38' Colvin might be simplistic, especially to those not familiar with Colvin design's. Im not sure if Colvins designs are framed or not, but if so id love to get an idea as too what the frame alone ways on one of these 38' ers Once again I'll be the first to admit that I am not the most observant person, if you have included these figures somewhere in a previous post I apologize for my observation skills or lack of them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows > > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more > > traditionally built boats. > > Actually it tells you nothing of the kind, unless you're simplistic. > > To make that comparison, first you'd need to specify how many kilos of > steel were in the hull and then how many dollars per kilo you were > paying for the steel, then the exchange rate on the day. Then you'd > need to specify how much lead was needed to get the hull to its DWL. > > As of this evening, $12K AUD is $9643 CAD. Now we're down to $1643 > difference. How many kilos of steel are you specifying for the 36' > hull and how many kilos of lead ballast do you need? Are you talking > new prices for steel or scrap prices? You have an interesting habit of > making claims about materials prices but it turns out that it was a > once in a lifetime deal that can't be counted on. The prices I've > quoted for steel are for new stock ordered direct from the steel > merchants. > > Lead is currently $0.42c/lb USD according to the LME and falling. > Scrounging for lead is a good idea, it's what I've been doing for over > a year now. I have a tonne already. I also have pretty much all the > s/steel I need for trim etc and all the electrodes both mild and > stainless. > > Given that from your own figures your 36' design is a full tonne > heavier than a Colvin 38' Witch I don't think you're in a real strong > position to be making claims about weight. > > PDW > | 19833|19800|2009-03-03 07:19:44|martin demers|Re: steel hull constrution|James, I found the name of the company, it is called "Sofatec", they are a manufacturer welder of huge industrial components, they are located in St-Anne-des-Plaines (a few miles north of Montreal) the phone number is 450-478-3365the name of the person I talked to is Parker Lauzon, he is the estimator.Last year he quoted me at $2634.00 for 2 plates of 8x 36 ft.. You should be able to order the lenght you want, they include it in their next order. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:01:06 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution Martin, who in Montreal has the 40' length of 3/16 plate I will see if I can get it from there. Thank you, James Pronk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > James, last time I checked, one year ago, I was able to get 40 ft lenght of 3/16 plate, here in the Montreal area. Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:31:02 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Brent > > That is close to what I have been quoted for steel. Still looking for > > 36' x 8' 3/16 plate. > > James > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Steel for the 36 was just quoted at $8,000 here in Canada. It shows > > > how much you spend , not counting time, on framing for more > > > traditionally built boats. > > > Ask the scrap dealers what they will pay you for scrap lead, then > > > put an add in the buy and sell and offer wheelbalancing shops a > > > couple of cents more. > > > Start your scrounging a couple of years before starting the hull . > > > The longer you have the less it will cost you. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > FWIW I've been pricing the steel for a 38' Colvin hull in 4mm > > > plate. > > > > It comes to $12K AUD ATM, not including things like 316 pipe for > > > the > > > > bulwarks etc. A 40' Swain is going to be a fair bit more esp as > > the > > > > hull is 5mm thick. > > > > > > > > Steel was a fair bit cheaper 3 years ago but is dropping or > > > remaining > > > > steady at the moment. Nobody can guess what it'll be in a year. > > > > > > > > Lead has dropped a lot. I'm paying $1/kg ATM. I have 1 tonne and > > > need > > > > another 300 kg. > > > > > > > > Tom is right, trying to figure the hull cost a year out is pretty > > > > tough. My steel quotes are only good for 30 days. > > > > > > > > To minimise cost you need to decide that you're definitely going > > to > > > > build and then immediately start scavenging for deals. You also > > > need > > > > to decide how much 'stuff' you're going to have and what standard > > > of > > > > fit & finish you'll be happy with for the interior. Fancy timbers > > & > > > > joinery take time, lots of it. I built all my own kitchen cupboard > > > > doors etc and I'd never do it for pay - there are 7 coats of hand > > > > rubbed Danish oil for a finish. I think my boat is going to have > > > plywood. > > > > > > > > A builder working on a quoted price is going to quote you at the > > > price > > > > his suppliers give for new material because not only is time > > money, > > > > chasing used stuff is aggravating unless you're getting your full > > > > hourly rate for doing it. Doing it for yourself is (or can be) > > > > entertainment. That's different. > > > > > > > > My rule of thumb for most stuff is to take the materials cost and > > > > double it to arrive at the total cost if I'm paying someone else > > > to do > > > > it. Works out pretty close in my experience. > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Im in cental California, cant be much help to you. > > > > > Its tough to get a guestamate on cost a year out. Materal > > price > > > may > > > > jump or > > > > > lower who knows. My welding supplies are going up a couple bucks > > > > every time > > > > > I go in and pick up more. I dont contract eather usualy just > > > time and > > > > > material. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 PM, michaelandmonica2003 < > > > > > michaelandmonica@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > we live in cloverdale BC and we are looking for an > > approximate > > > cost > > > > > > for a hull. we have read your book and bought the alex video. > > > we would > > > > > > like to build a 40' aft cabin hull. we wish to start in 2010 > > > and do > > > > > > not know how much to put aside for the hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Réinventez comment vous restez en contact avec le nouveau Windows Live Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650737 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19834|19834|2009-03-03 15:39:07|slusher_ben|Cherub questions|I've considered several wood designs as a larger build but I've always had a streak in me that would want to try something different. I have experience in welding and I'm thinking of ordering a set of plans for Farmers Cherub. I was wondering if I decided to build this little ship if I could talk some of the smart guys on this site into some advice in changing the sail plan to a gaff cutter and a tabernacle mast. The intended use is for sailing in the Great Lakes for two and some extensive solo sailing in the Caribbean. I would want to trailer it but I have extensive experience in trailering loads so size and weight doesn't bother me. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.....| 19835|19834|2009-03-03 18:45:45|kingsknight4life|Re: Cherub questions|Hi Welcome to the group. While this group is v ery active and has lots of experience in sailing, boat building and cruising the subjects of gaff rigs and tabernacle masts are rarely touched upon. NOT to cvhase you away but perhpas the Wylo group could better answer those questions. Those boats are steel built, gaff raigged and have tabernacles. This group howevr may be able to answer these questions as well. Either way good luck Rowland| 19836|19836|2009-03-04 09:07:31|Carl Volkwein|ancher weight etc..|Dear Brent and all others,  I beleve I read in Brents book about a  modified Danforth annchor, what size{weight} would be rite for a 26' er?   Also, how much U.S.for another book, and what's the address to send it too? carlvolkwein@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19837|19728|2009-03-04 13:37:20|Martin Demers|Re: Composting head-problem for woman?|- after a discussion with a friend, explaning her the fonctioning of the composting toilet, she concluded that it cannot be used by woman because of the urine that has to go in a separate opening in the front of the bowl. She tinks that because of the female anatomy. what can be answered by woman that have used composting toilets? Martin. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Brent I > I am making a plan of the composting toilet for general info. When you say "...The lip > around the Conservative birth canal is 3/4 inch high." are you saying the this is above the > lip of the CBC?? Doesn't that make it difficult to clean?? > Markh > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I just cecked the dimensions for the composter head top. The bowl > > is 4 1/2 inches deep at the front and 3 1/2 inches deep at the back. > > It is 8 inches wide by 11 inches long. The outside dimensions for > > the seat are 12 inches wide by 14 1/2 inches long. The Conservative > > birth canal is 4 inches diameter and 2 inches from the back of the > > bowl. The liquids drain is one inch diameter. The lip around the > > Conservative birth canal is 3/4 inch high. > > Taking a stainless 8 inch mixing bowl and laying up a fibreglas > > bowl inside it, cutting the FG bowl in half and laying up an extra 3 > > inch wide strip joining the two halves should give you the right > > dimensions for the bowl , either for the bowl or the mold . Cutting > > it for the right depth at both ends lets you put it on a board and > > put the raised lip around the ends , and the tory bith canal for the > > full mold. > > I think that the idea of a rotary mold is far too expensive when > > compared to fibreglas molded heads. I think this could become a > > cottage industry for anyone who wants to mold the parts and sell > > them to anyone wanting to build their own composter, with vet y > > little invested.. It could be done for a fraction the cost of > > Airheads or Natures head, without the need for the Chinese. The > > lower price should increase the demand exponentialy. > > Some have said that the musty smell makes you unpopular in > > marinas, but I think one could weld in a box on the vent pipe into > > which one could insert one of those deoderisers you see in urinals > > ( the ones responsible for the grafitti saying "Don't eat the big > > blue cookie). This could be easily replaced from time to time and > > the vent air would blow past it without retriction. > > I have found that when the anerobic bacteria takes over and things > > get smelly, adding a package of sanibac septic tank bacteria > > eliminates the anerobic smelly bacterial quickly. > > The lid could be one from an existing head as you won't get > > anythingfor your used head anyway, or a plyuwood one could be easily > > made up. A plastic 2 inch ID thru hull could be the vent outlet. > > Brent > > > | 19838|19728|2009-03-04 14:45:11|Ben Okopnik|Re: Composting head-problem for woman?|On Wed, Mar 04, 2009 at 06:37:18PM -0000, Martin Demers wrote: > - after a discussion with a friend, explaning her the fonctioning of > the composting toilet, she concluded that it cannot be used by woman > because of the urine that has to go in a separate opening in the front > of the bowl. She tinks that because of the female anatomy. > > what can be answered by woman that have used composting toilets? My wife uses ours every day. A number of women that I've met on other boats, including a woman who has been using one for over 30 years, both on her farm in the past and on her boat currently, have no problems and don't need to make any adjustments. In case your friend isn't all that familiar with the basic layout of male and female anatomy (don't laugh; many women aren't, since their plumbing doesn't tend to stick out like ours does), you can reassure her: there's enough symmetry between the two for this purpose that it works just fine for both. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19839|19839|2009-03-05 00:15:49|lachica31|Sealing tempered glass PH ports|What have you guys (Brent?) done to seal the glass to the pilothouse? Used Brent's standard method with 6mm neoprene? Or are you relying totally on the sealant. What sealant are you using? Regards, Paul Thompson| 19840|19840|2009-03-05 16:51:35|theboilerflue|Flex pipe|well i was reading some old posts about the engine vibrations, mainly concerning the exhaust pipe and was wondering what the current solution to this is (dry exhaust). I found some mention of SS bellows and flex pipes and silicon hose. What has proved to work the best so far to thake the vibration out of the exhaust pipe?| 19841|22|2009-03-05 18:05:31|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./285STUDYGAPL-FE22-09.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Genera Arrangement Plan A. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./285STUDYGAPL-FE22-09.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 19842|19842|2009-03-05 21:40:04|Patric Albutat|Battery Monitors|Given the resourcefulness of this list and the DIY mentality I'm curious how members judge their battery charge state. Of course the easiest way would be to just use a simple voltmeter but even with a good one you'd still be guessing. Don't fancy that as batteries aren't exactly cheap. An araeometer on the other hand would be most precise but rather unpractical on a boat and you'd be limited to open lead acid batteries. Then there are these so called battery monitors like the NASA BM1 and others. Unfortunately they don't come cheap but in the end might be the better investment. What are your thoughts?| 19843|19842|2009-03-06 00:15:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Battery Monitors|On Fri, Mar 06, 2009 at 02:39:57AM -0000, Patric Albutat wrote: > Given the resourcefulness of this list and the DIY mentality I'm > curious how members judge their battery charge state. Of course the > easiest way would be to just use a simple voltmeter but even with a > good one you'd still be guessing. Don't fancy that as batteries aren't > exactly cheap. An araeometer on the other hand would be most precise > but rather unpractical on a boat and you'd be limited to open lead > acid batteries. Then there are these so called battery monitors like > the NASA BM1 and others. Unfortunately they don't come cheap but in > the end might be the better investment. You've pretty much covered the range, in my opinion. I use a sensitive reduced-scale voltmeter and have years of practice at understanding what I'm seeing - particularly since I also run a digital ammeter that continually shows me what I'm using. From my experience of watching the battery charge/discharge curves, I know rather precisely what my charge state is at any given time. Since I use golf-cart batteries (deep-cycle lead acid), I can also use a hydrometer/araeometer - and do, especially right after I equalize my batteries, which I do every couple of months. Frankly, I don't trust anything other than heavy-duty lead acids on a cruising boat: in marginal situations, these things can take a heavy over-charge and survive it, whereas other types of batteries will not. As an example, about a year ago, my wife forgot that the equalizing plug was still in the regulator and ran the engine for about four hours; by the time I got home, the battery voltage was just over *16 volts* and the acid was perking quite briskly. I pulled out the plug, added a little water to the cells, checked all the electronics (whew, nothing burned up), and - went right back to using the batteries as usual. I'm still using them, and they're now in their fifth (I think - I'd have to look it up to be sure) year, and all of the cells still look strong. Try _that_ with gels! If you're going to use anything other than HD lead acids, then take the money you've saved (theoretically, at least - the storage capacity of gels and AGMs is higher, so you can afford to buy smaller ones) and buy a _really_ good battery monitor. Then, study the hell out of its manual, and don't trust it until you're sure that you've got the charge/discharge measuring cycle properly calibrated - this can be a bit difficult. I'd also recommend a separate voltmeter and ammeter besides the monitor. All battery monitors I know of have them built in, but you can't see them at the same time, which is critical for understanding your batteries' response to loads. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19844|19840|2009-03-06 07:24:37|Denis Buggy|Re: Flex pipe|dear ? to start at the beginning the exhaust pipe is not vibrating unless you start the engine - changing engine mounts is a big deal for little results . you can use one or all of these solutions mount two used and cheap heavy duty koni shocks DOUBLE ACTING at a 45 degree angle front and rear of engine top . use Japanese Toyota or other quality flexible exhaust pipe bolted both ends THIS IS OF THE WOVEN STAINLESS STEEL CLOTH TYPE GOOD FOR 50000 MILES +. = best and simplest method GO TO YOUR TRUCK SUPPLIES CO AND GET A BAG OF GENERAL PURPOSE EXHAUST RUBBER MOUNTS and rubber mount the exaust . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 9:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Flex pipe well i was reading some old posts about the engine vibrations, mainly concerning the exhaust pipe and was wondering what the current solution to this is (dry exhaust). I found some mention of SS bellows and flex pipes and silicon hose. What has proved to work the best so far to thake the vibration out of the exhaust pipe? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19845|19840|2009-03-06 16:29:45|brentswain38|Re: Flex pipe|I tried silicone hose on my air cooled diesel. At 3/4 throttle it worked but burned at full throttle. It was right at the head. If it had been a couple of feet away, it may have worked. Now with a watercooled manifold, I have hose clamped a piece of silicone hose around the dry exhuast a couple of feet away from the head and it is doing OK , no sign of burning. For metal flex, it lasts much longer if it runs vertically. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > well i was reading some old posts about the engine vibrations, mainly concerning the exhaust pipe and was wondering what the current solution to this is (dry exhaust). I found some mention of SS bellows and flex pipes and silicon hose. What has proved to work the best so far to thake the vibration out of the exhaust pipe? > | 19846|19836|2009-03-06 17:08:54|brentswain38|Re: ancher weight etc..|22 lb would work, altho there would be no harm in using a 35 pounder. For a copy of my book, please send $20 plus $7 for US postage, to 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC V0R2V0 Canada Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Dear Brent and all others, > >  I beleve I read in Brents book about a  modified Danforth annchor, what size{weight} would be rite for a 26' er? > >   Also, how much U.S.for another book, and what's the address to send it too? > carlvolkwein@... > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19847|19842|2009-03-06 17:13:27|brentswain38|Re: Battery Monitors|Cheapie digital voltmeter permanently hooked up works well. Don't forget to turn it off after checking your battery. The readings get wild when the battery in the meter starts to die. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Patric Albutat" wrote: > > Given the resourcefulness of this list and the DIY mentality I'm curious how members judge their battery charge state. Of course the easiest way would be to just use a simple voltmeter but even with a good one you'd still be guessing. Don't fancy that as batteries aren't exactly cheap. An araeometer on the other hand would be most precise but rather unpractical on a boat and you'd be limited to open lead acid batteries. Then there are these so called battery monitors like the NASA BM1 and others. Unfortunately they don't come cheap but in the end might be the better investment. > > What are your thoughts? > | 19848|19848|2009-03-06 17:17:40|brentswain38|Welder Power|When my Chinese "Mao's Revenge " generator wouldn't start I hooked a 120 volt plug to the output of my alternator welder, and it ran the angle grinder just fine. It didn't run quite as fast as the 120 volt ran it, but it got the job done , in less time than I wasted trying to get the generator running. Brent| 19849|19842|2009-03-06 18:35:39|mark hamill|Re: Battery Monitors|I worked at a yacht charter company last summer as a "light mechanic" and this involved prepping and checking all boat systems after each charter. The boats were pretty expensive power and sail and all had battery monitors of varying sophistication. We checked every cell of every battery with a battery hygrometer and recorded it. This allowed one to keep an eye on any potential bad cells and general state. To the charterers we told them to recharge the batteries when it got out of the green area of the battery/volt meter. Some of these aren't expensive units at all they are just voltmeters with colors. Speaking of batteries I bought 4 new deep cycle batteries at Costco for $7 cdn each!!!!!!!!!!!. They had been $67 the day before. Of all the places I have checked they have been the cheapest so far as a general rule.| 19850|19842|2009-03-06 18:47:09|Ben Okopnik|Re: Battery Monitors|On Fri, Mar 06, 2009 at 10:13:23PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Cheapie digital voltmeter permanently hooked up works well. Don't > forget to turn it off after checking your battery. The readings get > wild when the battery in the meter starts to die. Another option is to hook up that DVM permanently, with 12v from the main batteries regulated down to whatever the meter requires for a power supply. I'm a _big_ fan of this option, since portable stuff (meters, water-level alarms, etc.) usually costs only a couple of bucks while the panel-mounted versions that do exactly the same thing, or less, cost hundreds of dollars. I carry a bunch of adjustable voltage regulators (LM317T, if anyone is interested - about a buck apiece and literally blowout-proof) and a kit of resistors on board for just that reason: any time I need a fixed voltage source of anything from 1.5 to ~11 volts at up to 1.5 amps, I can make one up in a few minutes. Schematic for a 3-volt regulator: ______ +12v o-------------|LM317T|--o-----------o-------------> +9v out ------ | | | > | | < 1.0k | | > | | | --- 100mF ------o --- | | > | < 6.2k | > | | | Gnd >------------------------o-----------o------------> Gnd -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19851|19728|2009-03-07 08:47:21|Martin Demers|Re: Composting head-problem for woman?|- I will have her try one when I by one or make one myself, that will probably concince her, all the past and current users cant be wrong. Martin. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 04, 2009 at 06:37:18PM -0000, Martin Demers wrote: > > - after a discussion with a friend, explaning her the fonctioning of > > the composting toilet, she concluded that it cannot be used by woman > > because of the urine that has to go in a separate opening in the front > > of the bowl. She tinks that because of the female anatomy. > > > > what can be answered by woman that have used composting toilets? > > My wife uses ours every day. A number of women that I've met on other > boats, including a woman who has been using one for over 30 years, both > on her farm in the past and on her boat currently, have no problems and > don't need to make any adjustments. > > In case your friend isn't all that familiar with the basic layout of > male and female anatomy (don't laugh; many women aren't, since their > plumbing doesn't tend to stick out like ours does), you can reassure > her: there's enough symmetry between the two for this purpose that it > works just fine for both. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19852|19842|2009-03-07 12:22:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: Battery Monitors|On Fri, Mar 06, 2009 at 06:43:12PM -0500, Benjamin Okopnik wrote: > > Schematic for a 3-volt regulator: Erm... whoops. I meant "9-volt regulator" here. Hopefully, nobody set themselves on fire. :) A 3-volt regulator would have a 1.4k resistor instead of the 6.2k. > ______ > +12v o-------------|LM317T|--o-----------o-------------> +9v out > ------ | | > | > | > | < 1.0k | > | > | > | | --- 100mF > ------o --- > | | > > | > < 6.2k | > > | > | | > Gnd >------------------------o-----------o------------> Gnd -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19853|19728|2009-03-07 20:26:18|Martin Demers|Re: Composting head-problem for emptying?|another question came to my mind regarding composting toilets. what happens when you want to empty the toilet and someone or a few people used it not so long before? did the last human solid matters to fill the bottom compost section had enough time to convert into compost or got only mixed with the content already in there? Martin. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 04, 2009 at 06:37:18PM -0000, Martin Demers wrote: > > - after a discussion with a friend, explaning her the fonctioning of > > the composting toilet, she concluded that it cannot be used by woman > > because of the urine that has to go in a separate opening in the front > > of the bowl. She tinks that because of the female anatomy. > > > > what can be answered by woman that have used composting toilets? > > My wife uses ours every day. A number of women that I've met on other > boats, including a woman who has been using one for over 30 years, both > on her farm in the past and on her boat currently, have no problems and > don't need to make any adjustments. > > In case your friend isn't all that familiar with the basic layout of > male and female anatomy (don't laugh; many women aren't, since their > plumbing doesn't tend to stick out like ours does), you can reassure > her: there's enough symmetry between the two for this purpose that it > works just fine for both. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19854|19728|2009-03-07 20:45:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: Composting head-problem for emptying?|On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 01:26:10AM -0000, Martin Demers wrote: > > another question came to my mind regarding composting toilets. > > what happens when you want to empty the toilet and someone or a few > people used it not so long before? > > did the last human solid matters to fill the bottom compost section > had enough time to convert into compost or got only mixed with the > content already in there? Well... none of it is actually converted into compost on that kind of a schedule. According to the Humanure book (an excellent read, by the way; worth going through even if much of it doesn't apply to these toilets), it takes about 2 years to fully "cook" human feces into compost and make it totally harmless. However, these "composting toilets" deodorize and vent the material in such a way that it's pretty non-smelly almost right away, although at first it's just mixed in with the buffer material. It does begin to break down within a couple of days, though. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19855|19728|2009-03-08 10:16:39|Knut F Garshol|Re: Composting head-problem for emptying?|The composting toiletts I have seen and also used myself in the cabin I had in Norway, all had more than one chamber to receive the dry material. When one chamber has filled, a new chamber is put in position and the first one is simply resting (composting). In my cabin there were 3 chambers. When the 3rd was almost full, we would empty out #1 and the material would be dry and without smell. In a boat, the space restrictions may cause problems in this respect, but removal of a single chamber and insertion of an empty one would be possible. Operation of composting toiletts depend a lot of frequency of use. Big difference between weekend-use only and live aboard with more than one person in respect of chamber exchange and post-storage before disposal. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 8:42 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Composting head-problem for emptying? On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 01:26:10AM -0000, Martin Demers wrote: > > another question came to my mind regarding composting toilets. > > what happens when you want to empty the toilet and someone or a few > people used it not so long before? > > did the last human solid matters to fill the bottom compost section > had enough time to convert into compost or got only mixed with the > content already in there? Well... none of it is actually converted into compost on that kind of a schedule. According to the Humanure book (an excellent read, by the way; worth going through even if much of it doesn't apply to these toilets), it takes about 2 years to fully "cook" human feces into compost and make it totally harmless. However, these "composting toilets" deodorize and vent the material in such a way that it's pretty non-smelly almost right away, although at first it's just mixed in with the buffer material. It does begin to break down within a couple of days, though. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * HYPERLINK "http://LinuxGazette.NET"http://LinuxGazette-.NET * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1988 - Release Date: 3/6/2009 7:17 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: 3/7/2009 6:43 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19856|19728|2009-03-08 16:13:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: Composting head-problem for emptying?|On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 10:09:48AM -0400, Knut F Garshol wrote: > The composting toiletts I have seen and also used myself in the cabin I had > in Norway, all had more than one chamber to receive the dry material. When > one chamber has filled, a new chamber is put in position and the first one > is simply resting (composting). In my cabin there were 3 chambers. When the > 3rd was almost full, we would empty out #1 and the material would be dry and > without smell. Yes, that would be the normal composting setup. In theory, if you had a well-going compost pile that produced 60°C, all the pathogens, roundworms, etc. would be dead in just a couple of days. Passive composting (i.e., the thing that happens in these heads) does not reach that kind of temperatures, and so takes much longer. > In a boat, the space restrictions may cause problems in this > respect, but removal of a single chamber and insertion of an empty one would > be possible. There's a Mormon-run web site that I came across a while ago where a guy is describing the necessities of survival living for a family of four, and he was recommending using a Nature's Head with a spare main compartment; he wanted to have one that he could set aside so it could "cook" a bit more before being dumped into his garden. That's not a bad approach if you have the space. > Operation of composting toiletts depend a lot of frequency of > use. Big difference between weekend-use only and live aboard with more than > one person in respect of chamber exchange and post-storage before disposal. I agree. In my experience, this kind of a solution works very well aboard a boat - although I have to say that they should have made an extra urine container a standard accessory rather than just a suggestion. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19857|19728|2009-03-10 14:39:22|brentswain38|Re: Composting head-problem for emptying?|I try to bury mine back in the bush under a log where nobody steps. Its surprising how much it breaks down in a few days . Trees appreciate it, I'm sure. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 10:09:48AM -0400, Knut F Garshol wrote: > > The composting toiletts I have seen and also used myself in the cabin I had > > in Norway, all had more than one chamber to receive the dry material. When > > one chamber has filled, a new chamber is put in position and the first one > > is simply resting (composting). In my cabin there were 3 chambers. When the > > 3rd was almost full, we would empty out #1 and the material would be dry and > > without smell. > > Yes, that would be the normal composting setup. In theory, if you had a > well-going compost pile that produced 60°C, all the pathogens, > roundworms, etc. would be dead in just a couple of days. Passive > composting (i.e., the thing that happens in these heads) does not reach > that kind of temperatures, and so takes much longer. > > > In a boat, the space restrictions may cause problems in this > > respect, but removal of a single chamber and insertion of an empty one would > > be possible. > > There's a Mormon-run web site that I came across a while ago where a guy > is describing the necessities of survival living for a family of four, > and he was recommending using a Nature's Head with a spare main > compartment; he wanted to have one that he could set aside so it could > "cook" a bit more before being dumped into his garden. That's not a bad > approach if you have the space. > > > Operation of composting toiletts depend a lot of frequency of > > use. Big difference between weekend-use only and live aboard with more than > > one person in respect of chamber exchange and post-storage before disposal. > > I agree. In my experience, this kind of a solution works very well > aboard a boat - although I have to say that they should have made an > extra urine container a standard accessory rather than just a > suggestion. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19858|10562|2009-03-10 14:41:33|brentswain38|Keels|Twin keels project into the hull about three inches. Single keels ,being on the centreline, don't have to ,so are cut off flush with the hull plate. This makes the centre tank much cleaner and easier to clean. Brent| 19859|19800|2009-03-11 05:18:18|peter_d_wiley|Re: steel hull constrution|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cokedrum" wrote: > > Very observant post > > Forgive me if im the one mistaken but you mention your quote for the > 38' Colvin comes to 12kAUD > > What was the total weight of the steel your quote refers too? I'd have to add up the amounts listed on the quotes which is tedious. If you really want to know send me an email and I'll forward you the pdf quote documents I have. > Are you refering to just the 4mm plate used to plate the hull? > Does this also include all the steel for framing/decking? All steel including framing. In fact I've certainly got more 4mm plate & flat bar in the quote than the hull strictly needs because I hate running out of materials and IME the stuff never gets cheaper. I just worked the plate out on what standard sizes were going to be available and allowed a generous wastage since I'll use the excess for bench tops in my workshop and the like. Unlike most people I have 3.5 acres of land, a 16m x 13m fabrication shed/workshop and a full machine shop at my disposal. I built that first. Plenty of storage space. > Does this include the lead ballast? Definitely not. I've been scrounging lead for over 2 years and have approx 1.3 tonnes. I've paid close to $AUD 1/kg. ATM it should be about that much in USD new so I'm still in front. I'll bet the price that Brent quoted didn't include the lead ballast either. > > Many unanswered questions here, one might use the argument that > saying that a current quote of 12kAUD is enough to build a 38' Colvin > might be simplistic, especially to those not familiar with Colvin > design's. Shrug. Say what you like, I didn't start this and I'm not real interested in pursuing it either. Note that I did NOT say it was enough to build a Witch, I said it was the price for the steel for the hull, all brand new, from a steel merchant - IOW you can place an order and that is what it costs, no special deals or once in a lifetime finds from scrap merchants to get the costs down. There's nothing about ballast, interior fitout, engine & drive train, rig, electronics, cooking/heating, head, insulation, anchoring equipment etc etc in that price. All those things are extra. I've been accumulating 'stuff' for years. What it costs to build a hull depends on what you want to put into it as well as what the design is. An example is the pipe rails etc. There's well over $1000 AUD difference between galv pipe & stainless from my suppliers at the moment. > Im not sure if Colvins designs are framed or not, but if so id love to > get an idea as too what the frame alone ways on one of these 38' ers Yes, framed. Well, the Witch is. Tom Colvin has done framed & frameless designs. Tom said that he found the possible hull shapes too limiting using origami type construction. Nobody is disputing that origami works, BTW, merely that it's not the best way under all circumstances. My background is heavy shipping so I have my own biases. I may well build an origami design one day, the technique has a lot going for it, but claims that it's faster and hulls are lighter than framed designs are somewhere between outright bullshit and gross exaggeration. Take a look at Van De Stadt framed designs for example WRT displacement. I'm not claiming that a light boat like the Van De Stadts is necessarily better than a heavier one, BTW, merely pointing out that claims that framed designs are heavier than frameless (Swain) designs are crap. FWIW, if I had to build a hull without protection from the weather, in as short a period as possible, I'd probably do it using the origami technique. You likely get it weathertight quicker, at (IMO) a cost in time doing the interior. Overall, time to get the boat in the water and sailing, I can't see there's much difference in it and that's all I really care about. Alex never even got a decent start on fitting out his 36' hull so what benefit was there in getting the hull tacked together fast? Years later and the boat still isn't sailing. It did make a great DVD tho. > Once again I'll be the first to admit that I am not the most > observant person, if you have included these figures somewhere in a > previous post I apologize for my observation skills or lack of them. I don't have any problems with answering questions but I am very busy with other projects than boats, so email often works better. I'll be working away from my home for a month or so. My parting advice - don't get too bogged down on the hull. It's the easy bit. Many people successfully build the hull and then the project dies; there are always hulls for sale. Figure out what you're going to do for the interior, engine & rig and the level/complexity of fittings etc. I hate electronics for example, I used to spend over half a million dollars a year on marine electronics in my last job. Anything more than a GPS and a depth sounder is too much IMO - and personally I have 2 sextants for when the GPS dies, and a sounding pole. PDW| 19860|19800|2009-03-11 13:37:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: steel hull constrution|On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 09:18:11AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > Overall, time to get the boat in the water > and sailing, I can't see there's much difference in it and that's all > I really care about. Alex never even got a decent start on fitting out > his 36' hull so what benefit was there in getting the hull tacked > together fast? Years later and the boat still isn't sailing. It did > make a great DVD tho. Nice _ad hominem_ argument there, Peter. Looked at from that perspective, all Colvin designs are worthless - since you've been on this list for a couple of years at least, and I haven't heard of you splashing a Witch or a boat yet. Or, rather than knocking Colvin, does it just mean that you're incompetent? Alex didn't manage to fit out his boat for reasons of his own - and those could have been anything at all. The design that he happened to use for his hull was a Swain, but that does not mean that building a Swain design makes it less likely that the interior will get finished. You having a preference one way or the other does not make the rest of the designs bad. It doesn't even mean that your choice is good. In other words, I'd suggest that you put down that broad tarring brush. Otherwise, you're likely to get smeared. > My parting advice - don't get too bogged down on the hull. It's the > easy bit. Many people successfully build the hull and then the project > dies; there are always hulls for sale. Figure out what you're going to > do for the interior, engine & rig and the level/complexity of fittings > etc. I hate electronics for example, I used to spend over half a > million dollars a year on marine electronics in my last job. Anything > more than a GPS and a depth sounder is too much IMO - and personally I > have 2 sextants for when the GPS dies, and a sounding pole. As is often the case with your posts, I strongly agree with a part of it - everything in the above paragraph, that is. In my view, a Swain design makes it much easier to not get bogged down in the hull - because building the hull now *becomes* the relatively-easy part. Given the number of unfinished hulls I've seen over the years, it's *not* the "easy bit" for people building non-Swain hulls. The average guy who decides to build his own tends to run out of steam about 8 months to a year into the project, by which point the average framed hull is about half-built (again, in my very broad experience with home builders, the hull usually takes about 2 years in the usual "evening-builder" situation.) At that point, with the project looking its worst, everything comes together to make it as dispiriting as possible, and the voices of the nay-sayers are ringing pretty loud and confident. It's hard to continue at that point - and it's a rare man who does. With an origami hull, the "bad stretch" is over in a matter of a week or two - and that happens early, when optimism is still running high and you can still laugh at the squeaking of the idiots. It's also a hell of a lot easier for even an inexperienced welder to do it Brent's way. Load it however you will, but spending a huge amount of effort, time, and money building a frame - essentially a preparatory step to building a hull, which is the actual goal - is not an improvement in a system where it's not needed. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19861|19800|2009-03-11 15:41:20|abellzey|Re: steel hull constrution|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 09:18:11AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > Overall, time to get the boat in the water > > and sailing, I can't see there's much difference in it and that's all > > I really care about. Alex never even got a decent start on fitting out > > his 36' hull so what benefit was there in getting the hull tacked > > together fast? Years later and the boat still isn't sailing. It did > > make a great DVD tho. > > Nice _ad hominem_ argument there, Peter. Looked at from that > perspective, all Colvin designs are worthless - since you've been on > this list for a couple of years at least, and I haven't heard of you > splashing a Witch or a boat yet. Or, rather than knocking Colvin, does > it just mean that you're incompetent? > > Alex didn't manage to fit out his boat for reasons of his own - and > those could have been anything at all. The design that he happened to > use for his hull was a Swain, but that does not mean that building a > Swain design makes it less likely that the interior will get finished. > You having a preference one way or the other does not make the rest of > the designs bad. It doesn't even mean that your choice is good. > > In other words, I'd suggest that you put down that broad tarring brush. > Otherwise, you're likely to get smeared. > > > My parting advice - don't get too bogged down on the hull. It's the > > easy bit. Many people successfully build the hull and then the project > > dies; there are always hulls for sale. Figure out what you're going to > > do for the interior, engine & rig and the level/complexity of fittings > > etc. I hate electronics for example, I used to spend over half a > > million dollars a year on marine electronics in my last job. Anything > > more than a GPS and a depth sounder is too much IMO - and personally I > > have 2 sextants for when the GPS dies, and a sounding pole. > > As is often the case with your posts, I strongly agree with a part of it > - everything in the above paragraph, that is. In my view, a Swain design > makes it much easier to not get bogged down in the hull - because > building the hull now *becomes* the relatively-easy part. Given the > number of unfinished hulls I've seen over the years, it's *not* the > "easy bit" for people building non-Swain hulls. The average guy who > decides to build his own tends to run out of steam about 8 months to a > year into the project, by which point the average framed hull is about > half-built (again, in my very broad experience with home builders, the > hull usually takes about 2 years in the usual "evening-builder" > situation.) At that point, with the project looking its worst, > everything comes together to make it as dispiriting as possible, and the > voices of the nay-sayers are ringing pretty loud and confident. It's > hard to continue at that point - and it's a rare man who does. > > With an origami hull, the "bad stretch" is over in a matter of a week or > two - and that happens early, when optimism is still running high and > you can still laugh at the squeaking of the idiots. It's also a hell of > a lot easier for even an inexperienced welder to do it Brent's way. Load > it however you will, but spending a huge amount of effort, time, and > money building a frame - essentially a preparatory step to building a > hull, which is the actual goal - is not an improvement in a system where > it's not needed. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * >If you don't anticipate enjoying the process you should not attempt to build. It is a long project. All my working life I have worked with steel, building things for other people. This boat is my hobby. I look forward to every day that I can do do some work on it. I can apply the things I have learned over the years to my own dream. The progress has been slower than I thought it would be, but that has not diminished the pleasure I derive from the work. when I finally retire completely I will be able to devote more time to it. The launching party will be a great day! For all you guys working on your boat or even just thinking about it, my advice would be to enjoy the process. Look forward to the big splash, but take pleasure in creative process. Good luck to all of you. Alan | 19862|19800|2009-03-11 16:37:05|Aaron Williams|Re: steel hull constrution|Thanks Allen  The fact is some of us are building boat because we want to and we are here on this group because we choose to build this design. Aaron --- On Wed, 3/11/09, abellzey wrote: From: abellzey Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel hull constrution To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 11:41 AM >If you don't anticipate enjoying the process you should not attempt to build. It is a long project. All my working life I have worked with steel, building things for other people. This boat is my hobby. I look forward to every day that I can do do some work on it. I can apply the things I have learned over the years to my own dream. The progress has been slower than I thought it would be, but that has not diminished the pleasure I derive from the work. when I finally retire completely I will be able to devote more time to it. The launching party will be a great day! For all you guys working on your boat or even just thinking about it, my advice would be to enjoy the process. Look forward to the big splash, but take pleasure in creative process. Good luck to all of you. Alan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19863|19800|2009-03-11 17:53:52|kingsknight4life|Re: steel hull constrution|Well put Ben. Peter comes on here alot and in my opinion trashes Origami boats under the guise of the voice of reason. In fact ths isn't the only forum where he does this. You repeatedly praise Colvin boats on the one hand while trahing "Brent boats" in the same breath? If these boats are so bad why do you continue to post here at all? Using Alex's hull as an example is hardy a logical arguement. As has been stated before the designer isn't responsible for how long or to what finish an owner decides to outfit his boat to. How could he? I think its pretty hard to deny that these hulls go together faster and easier than other similarily sized boats. Also pretty hard to deny that they sail well and are tough as nails. Thats all, pretty much Brent has ever claimed with regards to his boats. (He claims lots of things on other matters) but with regards to his boat he always said they went together fast, sailed well and were tough. No? I don't even want to get into you claiming they are overweight compared to Colvin's Witches as I have seen other Colvin designs of the same lenght with greater dislacements thans Brent's 36footer. Rowland| 19864|19800|2009-03-11 19:02:03|brentswain38|Re: steel hull constrution|I launched my 31 footer a month after the steel arrived, built a couple more 36 ft shells in june, then finished my detailing in ten days in August, took a break, and rigged her in ten days in October the same year. Costa Vida was launched, painted and foamd with the engine in, one year from the time the steel arrived, despite their having to go away for several months to earn a livlihood. It was their first boatbuilding project. Try that with a colvin, or any other framed boat. I roughed the interior in in two days . Not having frames didn't seem to be any disadvatage. Putting the tabs in to bolt the bulkheads to took about an hour. It would be pretty simple for you to post the weight of your framing here from your receipts, if that didn't threaten to embarass you, and contradict your past comments. The shapes of my origami boats sail well, look good, and do the job as well as or better than most other hull shapes. So it makes absolutely no sense whatever to waste a huge amount of time, effort and money trying to build a complex shape that has absolutely no advantage over origami boats, simply to get oneself off the treadmill and out cruising. Peter, stop beating your head against the wall on this issue, or suggesting others do the same. Find something more enjoyable to beat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Well put Ben. > > Peter comes on here alot and in my opinion trashes Origami boats under the guise of the voice of reason. In fact ths isn't the only forum where he does this. You repeatedly praise Colvin boats on the one hand while trahing "Brent boats" in the same breath? > > If these boats are so bad why do you continue to post here at all? Using Alex's hull as an example is hardy a logical arguement. As has been stated before the designer isn't responsible for how long or to what finish an owner decides to outfit his boat to. How could he? > I think its pretty hard to deny that these hulls go together faster and easier than other similarily sized boats. Also pretty hard to deny that they sail well and are tough as nails. Thats all, pretty much Brent has ever claimed with regards to his boats. (He claims lots of things on other matters) but with regards to his boat he always said they went together fast, sailed well and were tough. No? > > I don't even want to get into you claiming they are overweight compared to Colvin's Witches as I have seen other Colvin designs of the same lenght with greater dislacements thans Brent's 36footer. > Rowland > | 19865|19865|2009-03-12 16:19:31|nl.harney|Stainless Steel Retrofit?|I know very little about welding and metal working. I have found several used steel boats for sale that have painted steel safety rails, pulpits, bowrollers, cleats, bollards, etc. Is it feasible to cut these parts out and replace them with stainless ones and still end up with a good looking boat? Or would the process distort or warp the surrounding metal. As I said I have no experience with metal working. Thanks, Norm| 19866|19865|2009-03-12 17:23:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stainless Steel Retrofit?|On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 08:19:22PM -0000, nl.harney wrote: > I know very little about welding and metal working. I have found > several used steel boats for sale that have painted steel safety > rails, pulpits, bowrollers, cleats, bollards, etc. > > Is it feasible to cut these parts out and replace them with stainless > ones and still end up with a good looking boat? Or would the process > distort or warp the surrounding metal. As I said I have no experience > with metal working. In general, the answer is "yes". Steel is very malleable and forgiving, and with a little practice, you'll be able to flip a new stainless bollard into place of the old one in a couple of minutes. On the other hand, if there's (to pick a random problem) wood just under the deck where the bollard is mounted, you may have a problem: you need to make sure it doesn't catch on fire as you're welding, and whether that requires a week of disassembly to get to that spot, a metal separator that you manage to hammer into place, or just a friend spraying water on that piece of wood while you weld as quick as you can is the thing that will determine how long it will take overall. So, yes, it's possible. Is it feasible? Well, I'd suggest taking a close look at those places and considering all the factors - and since you don't have much experience, it's going to take either some serious thinking and studying on your part, or hiring an experienced welder to do it for you. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19867|19865|2009-03-12 18:48:36|brentswain38|Re: Stainless Steel Retrofit?|You have to be very careful not to set foam insulation on fire. I usually scrape foam at least two or three inches away from any weld area, then prop up soaked rags around the area, between the weld and the foam. Then I do short welds ,quenching every inch of weld with water in a squeeze bottle, before welding any further. Having a friend inside with a hose is a god idea. Stainless likes to be quenched rapidly. It is well worth doing as it can reduce maintenance by up to 80% Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 08:19:22PM -0000, nl.harney wrote: > > I know very little about welding and metal working. I have found > > several used steel boats for sale that have painted steel safety > > rails, pulpits, bowrollers, cleats, bollards, etc. > > > > Is it feasible to cut these parts out and replace them with stainless > > ones and still end up with a good looking boat? Or would the process > > distort or warp the surrounding metal. As I said I have no experience > > with metal working. > > In general, the answer is "yes". Steel is very malleable and forgiving, > and with a little practice, you'll be able to flip a new stainless > bollard into place of the old one in a couple of minutes. On the other > hand, if there's (to pick a random problem) wood just under the deck > where the bollard is mounted, you may have a problem: you need to make > sure it doesn't catch on fire as you're welding, and whether that > requires a week of disassembly to get to that spot, a metal separator > that you manage to hammer into place, or just a friend spraying water on > that piece of wood while you weld as quick as you can is the thing that > will determine how long it will take overall. > > So, yes, it's possible. Is it feasible? Well, I'd suggest taking a close > look at those places and considering all the factors - and since you > don't have much experience, it's going to take either some serious > thinking and studying on your part, or hiring an experienced welder to > do it for you. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19868|19800|2009-03-12 18:51:57|brentswain38|Re: steel hull constrution|Several of my clients sold their cramped, cluttered , claustrophobic Saugeen Witch's to build my boats, and all were glad they did. Mark and Jean on Costa Vida did, then sailed around the pacific. They were glad they didn't try it on a Saugeen witch. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I launched my 31 footer a month after the steel arrived, built a couple more 36 ft shells in june, then finished my detailing in ten days in August, took a break, and rigged her in ten days in October the same year. > Costa Vida was launched, painted and foamd with the engine in, one year from the time the steel arrived, despite their having to go away for several months to earn a livlihood. It was their first boatbuilding project. > Try that with a colvin, or any other framed boat. > I roughed the interior in in two days . Not having frames didn't seem to be any disadvatage. Putting the tabs in to bolt the bulkheads to took about an hour. > It would be pretty simple for you to post the weight of your framing here from your receipts, if that didn't threaten to embarass you, and contradict your past comments. > The shapes of my origami boats sail well, look good, and do the job as well as or better than most other hull shapes. So it makes absolutely no sense whatever to waste a huge amount of time, effort and money trying to build a complex shape that has absolutely no advantage over origami boats, simply to get oneself off the treadmill and out cruising. > Peter, stop beating your head against the wall on this issue, or suggesting others do the same. Find something more enjoyable to beat. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > Well put Ben. > > > > Peter comes on here alot and in my opinion trashes Origami boats under the guise of the voice of reason. In fact ths isn't the only forum where he does this. You repeatedly praise Colvin boats on the one hand while trahing "Brent boats" in the same breath? > > > > If these boats are so bad why do you continue to post here at all? Using Alex's hull as an example is hardy a logical arguement. As has been stated before the designer isn't responsible for how long or to what finish an owner decides to outfit his boat to. How could he? > > I think its pretty hard to deny that these hulls go together faster and easier than other similarily sized boats. Also pretty hard to deny that they sail well and are tough as nails. Thats all, pretty much Brent has ever claimed with regards to his boats. (He claims lots of things on other matters) but with regards to his boat he always said they went together fast, sailed well and were tough. No? > > > > I don't even want to get into you claiming they are overweight compared to Colvin's Witches as I have seen other Colvin designs of the same lenght with greater dislacements thans Brent's 36footer. > > Rowland > > > | 19869|19800|2009-03-12 19:50:47|James Pronk|Re: steel hull constrution|I was about one month from ordering the steel to build a fully framed Colvin boat, till I read some posts on the metal boat web site bad mouthing Brent. I looked into it myself and could see the benefits of building Brents way. I did look for about 4 years at steel boats to buy before I decided that I was not going to buy someone else's hunger horse. Also I would find so many half built Colvins that I could buy for scrap price and that was all they were worth. Buying one of these would have been throwing good money after bad. I know that everyone has there own reasons to build, mine being that I have had fiberglass boats that I have rebuilt and I would not trust them to make safe passages with my family. We want to go sailing off- shore with my family, but I don't want to spend ten years building a boat. To each there own, James Pronk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Several of my clients sold their cramped, cluttered , claustrophobic Saugeen Witch's to build my boats, and all were glad they did. Mark and Jean on Costa Vida did, then sailed around the pacific. They were glad they didn't try it on a Saugeen witch. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I launched my 31 footer a month after the steel arrived, built a couple more 36 ft shells in june, then finished my detailing in ten days in August, took a break, and rigged her in ten days in October the same year. > > Costa Vida was launched, painted and foamd with the engine in, one year from the time the steel arrived, despite their having to go away for several months to earn a livlihood. It was their first boatbuilding project. > > Try that with a colvin, or any other framed boat. > > I roughed the interior in in two days . Not having frames didn't seem to be any disadvatage. Putting the tabs in to bolt the bulkheads to took about an hour. > > It would be pretty simple for you to post the weight of your framing here from your receipts, if that didn't threaten to embarass you, and contradict your past comments. > > The shapes of my origami boats sail well, look good, and do the job as well as or better than most other hull shapes. So it makes absolutely no sense whatever to waste a huge amount of time, effort and money trying to build a complex shape that has absolutely no advantage over origami boats, simply to get oneself off the treadmill and out cruising. > > Peter, stop beating your head against the wall on this issue, or suggesting others do the same. Find something more enjoyable to beat. > > Brent | 19870|19870|2009-03-12 21:14:00|Gary Prebble|Propane LIne|I was reading that copper propane lines should be replaced by flexible lines (rubber?)for safety. My galley stove is copper lne hooked directly to 40lb tank on the stern rail. Is this a safety issue as I can't imagine how a copper line would bend or fatigue in a steel boat? ....| 19871|19865|2009-03-12 21:30:44|David Frantz|Re: Stainless Steel Retrofit?|If you know very little about welding it would pay to get some experience with it before committing to a self built boat. For the most part the skills required are easy to master if you have moderate to good eye to hand coordination. You might want to try out the process with a friend or take a local community welding class. A class is likely to bring you up to speed faster as hopefully you should get good feedback. As to Stainless you certainly could do as you suggest. Stainless does react more to the welding process than mild steel does so adjustments to the process might be needed. Different materials are needed to but that is part of the learning process. As to welding that always impacts the metal to some extent. Stainless is some what worst when it comes to distortion. In either case this problem can be minimized via good technique, fit up and taking your time. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 12, 2009, at 4:19 PM, "nl.harney" wrote: > I know very little about welding and metal working. I have found > several used steel boats for sale that have painted steel safety > rails, pulpits, bowrollers, cleats, bollards, etc. > > Is it feasible to cut these parts out and replace them with > stainless ones and still end up with a good looking boat? Or would > the process distort or warp the surrounding metal. As I said I have > no experience with metal working. > > Thanks, > Norm > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 19872|19870|2009-03-13 00:33:37|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Propane LIne|Vibration makes the joint wear and leak at the conections. The good news is you can smell it before it is consintrated enough to ignite unless you forgot to turn it off before going to sleep. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > I was reading that copper propane lines should be replaced by flexible lines (rubber?)for safety. My galley stove is copper lne hooked directly to 40lb tank on the stern rail. Is this a safety issue as I can't imagine how a copper line would bend or fatigue in a steel boat? > > .... > | 19873|19870|2009-03-13 00:38:39|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Propane LIne|Forgot to add that in the US sensors and shutoff switch as well as replaceing marine approved hose every few years is required. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Vibration makes the joint wear and leak at the conections. The good news is you can smell it before it is consintrated enough to ignite unless you forgot to turn it off before going to sleep. > > Jon | 19874|19870|2009-03-13 00:42:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: Propane LIne|On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 01:13:54AM -0000, Gary Prebble wrote: > I was reading that copper propane lines should be replaced by flexible > lines (rubber?)for safety. My galley stove is copper lne hooked > directly to 40lb tank on the stern rail. Is this a safety issue as I > can't imagine how a copper line would bend or fatigue in a steel boat? Same reasoning as ABYC's "no solid electrical wire" rule: copper hardens after a while, whether it's from vibration or just daily temp expansion/contraction - and with copper (unlike rubber), it's not obvious when it's failing. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19875|19870|2009-03-13 07:32:04|edward_stoneuk|Re: Propane LIne|Gary, The problem is that propane (density 1.748 kg/m3)is quite a bit heavier than air (density 1.2 kg/m3) and so will tend to build up in the bilges well below one's usual nose level. Not much is needed, only 2.2% propane in air to be explosive. It is not unknown for boats to explode when the owner comes on board and starts the motor. The flammability Limits in air are: Lower explosive limit : 2.2 % by volume Upper explosive limit : 9.5 % by volume If a propane alarm is fitted it would be set at about 0.5% (Check with supplier) Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Vibration makes the joint wear and leak at the conections. The good news is you can smell it before it is consintrated enough to ignite unless you forgot to turn it off before going to sleep. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > > > I was reading that copper propane lines should be replaced by flexible lines (rubber?)for safety. My galley stove is copper lne hooked directly to 40lb tank on the stern rail. Is this a safety issue as I can't imagine how a copper line would bend or fatigue in a steel boat? > > > > .... > > > | 19876|19870|2009-03-13 09:27:36|Gary Prebble|Re: Propane LIne|Using propane everyday aboard is no excuse to get complacent. Thanks for the info.... One mishap might be the last one one with that substance. .... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Forgot to add that in the US sensors and shutoff switch as well as replaceing marine approved hose every few years is required. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > > > Vibration makes the joint wear and leak at the conections. The good news is you can smell it before it is consintrated enough to ignite unless you forgot to turn it off before going to sleep. > > > > Jon > | 19877|19870|2009-03-13 11:32:22|Carl Anderson|Re: Propane LIne|Gary, I used one continuous rubber line from the tank regulator to the stove. I got it at a propane supply store in Nanaimo. Much less money than going to a marine place. Still it cost a little over $100 including fittings for a 30' run. Carl sv-mom.com Gary Prebble wrote: > > > Using propane everyday aboard is no excuse to get complacent. Thanks for > the info.... One mishap might be the last one one with that substance. > > .... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: > > > > Forgot to add that in the US sensors and shutoff switch as well as > replaceing marine approved hose every few years is required. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: > > > > > > Vibration makes the joint wear and leak at the conections. The good > news is you can smell it before it is consintrated enough to ignite > unless you forgot to turn it off before going to sleep. > > > > > > Jon > > > > | 19878|19870|2009-03-14 17:32:03|brentswain38|Re: Propane LIne|I use sch 40 1/4 inch stainles pipe with rubber for a foot or so before the tank and the stove so the stove can gimbal. I am thinking of putting a needle valve on the stove end of the pipe. Then I can turn all the burners on and slowly close the valve until the stove starts to get lower, then open it a bit . That way, if the rubber ever burns or ruptures , ther is a limit on how much propane can come out. I saw a boat burn when the rubber line over the wood stove burned thru. Rubber does break down over time.Stainles doesn't. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Gary, > > I used one continuous rubber line from the tank regulator to the stove. > I got it at a propane supply store in Nanaimo. > Much less money than going to a marine place. > Still it cost a little over $100 including fittings for a 30' run. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > Using propane everyday aboard is no excuse to get complacent. Thanks for > > the info.... One mishap might be the last one one with that substance. > > > > .... > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > > wrote: > > > > > > Forgot to add that in the US sensors and shutoff switch as well as > > replaceing marine approved hose every few years is required. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Vibration makes the joint wear and leak at the conections. The good > > news is you can smell it before it is consintrated enough to ignite > > unless you forgot to turn it off before going to sleep. > > > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > > > | 19879|19800|2009-03-14 17:40:13|brentswain38|Re: steel hull constrution|The Saugeen witch is a 34 footer on deck, and is only a 38 footer if you count the bowsprit. Comparing it to a 40 footer is like putting a ten foot bowsprit on a 36 then comparing it to a 46 footer without a bowsprit. It has less living space and less feeling of space than my 31 and about the same as my 26. This is typical of the distortion needed to find fault with an origami boat. Peter , after you have built your claustrophobic Saugeen witch with far more time and effort than it could possibly justify, and are grossly outsailed by one of my 36 footers, and find enough space inside the 36 to easily fit a saugeen witch inside, you are going to feel like a complete idiot. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cokedrum" wrote: > > > > Very observant post > > > > Forgive me if im the one mistaken but you mention your quote for the > > 38' Colvin comes to 12kAUD > > > > What was the total weight of the steel your quote refers too? > > I'd have to add up the amounts listed on the quotes which is tedious. If you really want to know send me an email and I'll forward you the pdf quote documents I have. > > > Are you refering to just the 4mm plate used to plate the hull? > > Does this also include all the steel for framing/decking? > > All steel including framing. In fact I've certainly got more 4mm plate & flat bar in the quote than the hull strictly needs because I hate running out of materials and IME the stuff never gets cheaper. I just worked the plate out on what standard sizes were going to be available and allowed a generous wastage since I'll use the excess for bench tops in my workshop and the like. Unlike most people I have 3.5 acres of land, a 16m x 13m fabrication shed/workshop and a full machine shop at my disposal. I built that first. Plenty of storage space. > > > Does this include the lead ballast? > > Definitely not. I've been scrounging lead for over 2 years and have approx 1.3 tonnes. I've paid close to $AUD 1/kg. ATM it should be about that much in USD new so I'm still in front. I'll bet the price that Brent quoted didn't include the lead ballast either. > > > > > Many unanswered questions here, one might use the argument that > > saying that a current quote of 12kAUD is enough to build a 38' Colvin > > might be simplistic, especially to those not familiar with Colvin > > design's. > > Shrug. Say what you like, I didn't start this and I'm not real interested in pursuing it either. Note that I did NOT say it was enough to build a Witch, I said it was the price for the steel for the hull, all brand new, from a steel merchant - IOW you can place an order and that is what it costs, no special deals or once in a lifetime finds from scrap merchants to get the costs down. There's nothing about ballast, interior fitout, engine & drive train, rig, electronics, cooking/heating, head, insulation, anchoring equipment etc etc in that price. All those things are extra. I've been accumulating 'stuff' for years. > > What it costs to build a hull depends on what you want to put into it as well as what the design is. An example is the pipe rails etc. There's well over $1000 AUD difference between galv pipe & stainless from my suppliers at the moment. > > > Im not sure if Colvins designs are framed or not, but if so id love to > > get an idea as too what the frame alone ways on one of these 38' ers > > Yes, framed. Well, the Witch is. Tom Colvin has done framed & frameless designs. Tom said that he found the possible hull shapes too limiting using origami type construction. Nobody is disputing that origami works, BTW, merely that it's not the best way under all circumstances. My background is heavy shipping so I have my own biases. I may well build an origami design one day, the technique has a lot going for it, but claims that it's faster and hulls are lighter than framed designs are somewhere between outright bullshit and gross exaggeration. Take a look at Van De Stadt framed designs for example WRT displacement. I'm not claiming that a light boat like the Van De Stadts is necessarily better than a heavier one, BTW, merely pointing out that claims that framed designs are heavier than frameless (Swain) designs are crap. > > FWIW, if I had to build a hull without protection from the weather, in as short a period as possible, I'd probably do it using the origami technique. You likely get it weathertight quicker, at (IMO) a cost in time doing the interior. Overall, time to get the boat in the water and sailing, I can't see there's much difference in it and that's all I really care about. Alex never even got a decent start on fitting out his 36' hull so what benefit was there in getting the hull tacked together fast? Years later and the boat still isn't sailing. It did make a great DVD tho. > > > Once again I'll be the first to admit that I am not the most > > observant person, if you have included these figures somewhere in a > > previous post I apologize for my observation skills or lack of them. > > I don't have any problems with answering questions but I am very busy with other projects than boats, so email often works better. I'll be working away from my home for a month or so. > > My parting advice - don't get too bogged down on the hull. It's the easy bit. Many people successfully build the hull and then the project dies; there are always hulls for sale. Figure out what you're going to do for the interior, engine & rig and the level/complexity of fittings etc. I hate electronics for example, I used to spend over half a million dollars a year on marine electronics in my last job. Anything more than a GPS and a depth sounder is too much IMO - and personally I have 2 sextants for when the GPS dies, and a sounding pole. > > PDW > | 19880|19870|2009-03-14 19:48:36|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Propane LIne|Rubber breaking down in time is why they need to be replaced every few years. Other sorses of leaks long term are also ball valvesand pipe elbows. Pipe as you used for the run should be acceptable. Copper presure fittings always eventualy leek. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I use sch 40 1/4 inch stainles pipe with rubber for a foot or so before the tank and the stove so the stove can gimbal. I am thinking of putting a needle valve on the stove end of the pipe. Then I can turn all the burners on and slowly close the valve until the stove starts to get lower, then open it a bit . That way, if the rubber ever burns or ruptures , ther is a limit on how much propane can come out. I saw a boat burn when the rubber line over the wood stove burned thru. Rubber does break down over time.Stainles doesn't. > Brent | 19881|19870|2009-03-14 22:30:42|Gary Prebble|Re: Propane LIne|Apparently in an enclosed sailboat it is ONE mistake only with propane. I have heard that the gas is difficult to remove as it sinks down to the bilge. How is propane in the bilge dealt with? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Rubber breaking down in time is why they need to be replaced every few years. Other sorses of leaks long term are also ball valvesand pipe elbows. Pipe as you used for the run should be acceptable. Copper presure fittings always eventualy leek. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I use sch 40 1/4 inch stainles pipe with rubber for a foot or so before the tank and the stove so the stove can gimbal. I am thinking of putting a needle valve on the stove end of the pipe. Then I can turn all the burners on and slowly close the valve until the stove starts to get lower, then open it a bit . That way, if the rubber ever burns or ruptures , ther is a limit on how much propane can come out. I saw a boat burn when the rubber line over the wood stove burned thru. Rubber does break down over time.Stainles doesn't. > > Brent > | 19882|19870|2009-03-14 22:50:37|mark hamill|Re: Propane LIne|For piece of mind heck all connections regularily with a spray bottle filled with a small amount of dish soap and water. The bubbles will tell.| 19883|19870|2009-03-14 22:51:02|Ben Okopnik|Re: Propane LIne|On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 11:48:25PM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Rubber breaking down in time is why they need to be replaced every few > years. Other sorses of leaks long term are also ball valvesand pipe > elbows. Pipe as you used for the run should be acceptable. Copper > presure fittings always eventualy leek. I've got high-quality "rubber" propane hose (nitrile tube with braided synthetic reinforcement) on Ulysses that's at least 10 years old, and is showing no sign of leaking, cracking, or so much as surface fading; it's connected throughout with brass fittings that I've put on (long barb, PVC glue, and secured with stainless wire locked with a ClampTite tool [1].) I inspect the whole system about once a year, and have never had any leaks. Stainless is a really good option that'll probably never go bad, but I wouldn't pass up considering the "rubber" option if you can get good quality hose and can make your own ends. SS tube is pretty expensive by comparison. [1] This is one of the most useful tools I have aboard, and recently, when it wore out after 15 years of use, the company replaced it free _and_ offered me a 50% discount on any of their other tools. I love these things so much that I've thought of going into business selling them. I *definitely* recommend one to anyone with a boat. http://www.clamptitetools.com/ (this is the factory site) Take a look at the "Repair hydraulic leaks in the field" section (a dealer's site): http://www.clamptool.com/pages/auto.html -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19884|19870|2009-03-14 23:03:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Propane LIne|On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 02:30:34AM -0000, Gary Prebble wrote: > Apparently in an enclosed sailboat it is ONE mistake only with > propane. I have heard that the gas is difficult to remove as it sinks > down to the bilge. How is propane in the bilge dealt with? Personally, I'd _hate_ to find out that I had a bilge full of propane. The only thing I could do at that point - after shutting off all the possible sources - is to bail the bilge with a bucket, again and again, until I thought that the level was low enough not to explode, or until I was completely exhausted. Possibly the latter in any case, because without a propane alarm, how would you know? I have a roller furling that I bought from a used boat equipment place in the islands - only to find out later that it came from a 46' boat which I saw explode the month before. It blew the deck off, killed the guy inside, and threw the one who was on deck about a hundred feet; fortunately, someone was passing by in a dinghy and pulled his unconscious body from the water. They smelled propane, and one of them went out on deck to shut off the tanks. Next thing he knew, he was waking up in the hospital, half-blind and mostly deaf. He mostly recovered, but it took months. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19885|19870|2009-03-14 23:09:49|Ben Okopnik|Re: Propane LIne|On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 02:50:31AM -0000, mark hamill wrote: > For piece of mind heck all connections regularily with a spray bottle > filled with a small amount of dish soap and water. The bubbles will > tell. Took me quite a while to learn that just a tiny bit too much soap will produce almost no bubbles. About one drop of dish soap to half a cup of water will bubble like hell (great for testing inflatable dinghies, etc.); five or six drops, and it won't bubble at all - the liquid just sorta moves out of the way. Seems weird, but it's the truth. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19886|19870|2009-03-15 00:45:56|lachica31|Re: Propane LIne|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > [1] This is one of the most useful tools I have aboard, and recently, > when it wore out after 15 years of use, the company replaced it free > _and_ offered me a 50% discount on any of their other tools. I love > these things so much that I've thought of going into business selling > them. I *definitely* recommend one to anyone with a boat. > > http://www.clamptitetools.com/ (this is the factory site) > Hi Ben, Which version of this tool (clamptite) do you use? They offer quite a few options and it seem to be a really really great tool. I am thinking that it could quickly pay for its self by me not having to buy hose clamps any more. Regards, Paul Thompson| 19887|19870|2009-03-15 01:03:43|Ben Okopnik|Re: Propane LIne|On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 04:45:53AM -0000, lachica31 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > [1] This is one of the most useful tools I have aboard, and recently, > > when it wore out after 15 years of use, the company replaced it free > > _and_ offered me a 50% discount on any of their other tools. I love > > these things so much that I've thought of going into business selling > > them. I *definitely* recommend one to anyone with a boat. > > > > http://www.clamptitetools.com/ (this is the factory site) > > > > Hi Ben, > > Which version of this tool (clamptite) do you use? They offer quite a > few options and it seem to be a really really great tool. I am > thinking that it could quickly pay for its self by me not having to > buy hose clamps any more. I started with the cheapest one - in fact, it was a sort of an experimental model, even simpler than the cheapest one they had - which made it all the nicer that they did that no-questions-asked replacement. Not only did it pay for itself in hose clamps, it did things that I simply wouldn't have been able to do before - e.g., the propane hoses (hose clamps can't exert that kind of pressure.) Hell, I've used it to lock two stainless pipes together where they were inserted into each other by compressing the outside one: you couldn't see any deformation, but they wouldn't come apart any more. I've probably used it twice a week since I've bought it, and that's a lot of use over the years. I took them up on their 50%-off offer and bought the cheaper stainless version, too. I figure that should last the rest of my life, and I'll be able to pass it on to the kids, too. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19888|19870|2009-03-15 12:31:52|theboilerflue|Re: Propane LIne|damn, i saw one of those at a oat swap meet last year in portland the guy wanter 10 bucks for it but i didn't really know what it was so i thought 10 bucks was a lot for a little metal rod --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > [1] This is one of the most useful tools I have aboard, and recently, > > when it wore out after 15 years of use, the company replaced it free > > _and_ offered me a 50% discount on any of their other tools. I love > > these things so much that I've thought of going into business selling > > them. I *definitely* recommend one to anyone with a boat. > > > > http://www.clamptitetools.com/ (this is the factory site) > > > > Hi Ben, > > Which version of this tool (clamptite) do you use? They offer quite a few options and it seem to be a really really great tool. I am thinking that it could quickly pay for its self by me not having to buy hose clamps any more. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 19889|19870|2009-03-15 18:01:26|mark hamill|Re: Propane LIne|About clearing out the bilge of propane, one can use a manual diaphram pump--ex. Guzzler as an effective air pump. If you have one there already you are good to go. Markh| 19890|19870|2009-03-15 21:56:50|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Propane LIne|Propane and its dangers are to inportant to not do right for info here are a few links and sights with the ofical regs bast on lost lives not just near misses. http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/links.html http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatbuilder/index.htm From there you can be safe as posable or prove Daewin right. Jon| 19891|19870|2009-03-16 00:20:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Propane LIne|I think if I had a bilge full of propane, I would open the hatches, turn off the tank, and clear out of the boat. The consequences of a spark are far too high to risk hanging around. The gas will eventually dissipate even though it is heavier than air. I wouldn't get back on the boat until after the smell went away but it would probably be safe after a few hours if there was a breeze blowing. Leaving the boat also lets your nose readjust since it will be desensitized to any smell quickly. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mark hamill Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:01 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Propane LIne About clearing out the bilge of propane, one can use a manual diaphram pump--ex. Guzzler as an effective air pump. If you have one there already you are good to go. Markh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19892|19870|2009-03-16 14:50:14|theboilerflue|Re: Propane LIne|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > damn, i saw one of those at a oat swap meet last year in portland the guy wanter 10 bucks for it but i didn't really know what it was so i thought 10 bucks was a lot for a little metal rod Man I really need to watch those typos!| 19893|19893|2009-03-16 14:59:59|theboilerflue|trim tab self steering|OK two questions about this wind vane thing. I was building it last night till i ran out of stainless welding rod. 1. on on the plans it shows 1 1/2" pipe for the vertical mounting pipe why 1 1/2 inch it seems that it would be easier to use 1" so that there is a huge gap to fill with bushing? Or does the wind vane need LOTS! of clearance or is there some other reason? 2. On my plans it show's the 1/2" pipe running up inside the stainless tube about 1/3 of the way up. What is to stop the wind vane from just getting lifted right off the 1/2" pipe? Or does that just not happen, I guess it would be pretty easy to fix but i was wondering if the plans showed this for some reason I'm unaware of? 3. Brent, what was the name of that window gasket stuff form central builders? bulldog something rather?| 19894|19894|2009-03-16 15:03:00|theboilerflue|Exhaust insulation|Carl and Kate or anyone with recommendations where did you get that insulative wrapping you guys have around your exhaust? Also speaking of engine heat anyone got suggestions on insulating the engine room for heat and sound?| 19895|19895|2009-03-16 15:21:07|theboilerflue|Roller furler|Brent I called AJ Forsyth they have no idea what i'm talking about - "1 1/2 pipe pipe with a slot to hold a bolt rope for awnings" Do you know what they would call it or part number or anything more specific?| 19896|19870|2009-03-16 15:35:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: Propane LIne|On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 06:50:05PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > damn, i saw one of those at a oat swap meet last year in portland > > the guy wanter 10 bucks for it but i didn't really know what it was > > so i thought 10 bucks was a lot for a little metal rod > > Man I really need to watch those typos! No harm done, except I tried to imagine people swapping oats and almost broke my brain. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19897|19894|2009-03-16 16:01:24|Ben Okopnik|Re: Exhaust insulation|On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 07:02:57PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > Carl and Kate or anyone with recommendations where did you get that > insulative wrapping you guys have around your exhaust? > > Also speaking of engine heat anyone got suggestions on insulating the > engine room for heat and sound? Here's the type of thing that I used: http://www.boilersupplies.com/boilergasket/boilerlist.html#t-tape (the roll pictured on the top left) A mechanic friend bought it for me, and I don't know who he bought it from, but this looks exactly right. It works like a charm; a two-layer wrap of it allows me to sit on the pipe comfortably even after the engine has been running for an hour. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19898|19898|2009-03-16 17:08:32|Gary Prebble|Back up ....|Cloudy windless days are frequent in the inside passage northwest BC (my location) which can result in dead batteries. I have 2 12 volt deep cell batteries kept charged by 2 railmount solar pannels. For past 4 yrs this has been fine... but!! Just wondering what some of the origami folk are using for back up? Another set of 12 volt batteries set aside or generator to charge battery charger? I am looking to put in some kind of back up... Thanks... Gary| 19899|19899|2009-03-16 18:54:34|Richard Kokemooor|Can table to glass be used for portlights/windows?|When I took some donations to a local charity thrift shop today, my eye fell on a glass coffee table top 1/2" thick and I wondered whether it or something like it could be used when it comes time to put in ports and windows. I did some searching on the internet and found out some things, but still have some questions. What I found out: 1/4" and 3/8" tops are tempered. Tempered glass cannot be cut; it just shatters into small relatively small safe shards. 1/2" glass tops are not tempered, at least from one supplier, and so could be cut by an amateur, at least in theory. How that is done I have not been able to discover. A British amateur cabinetmaking site said that thicker glass is cut the same way as thinner glass, but that table tops in UK are required to be tempered and so cannot be cut. Apparently untempered glass can to some degree be ground, so it might be possible to cut with a diamond cutoff wheel using plenty of lubricant to keep it from getting too hot. On the other hand, there is plenty of precut glass about, and not as expensive as might be imagined. www.glasstopsdirect.com for example is selling 6"x15"x1/2" for $12.95 plus $16.00 shipping, and 12"x15"x1/2" for $20.95 plus $20.00 shipping. True, that's not cheap cheap, but thick Plexiglass or Lexan is not cheap either. Another company had delivery trucks visiting major cities frequently; you order and then meet the truck when scheduled. I have not dealt with any of these companies myself. Anyone know more about this subject? I recall Brent mentioning using 1/2" glass in the front of his pilot house and remarking on its clarity and suitability for windshield wipers.| 19900|19895|2009-03-16 19:24:20|brentswain38|Re: Roller furler|Doug and Judy on the Moon Raven used it. You can see it on their boat. It's 1 1/4 , not 1 1/2. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Brent I called AJ Forsyth they have no idea what i'm talking about - "1 1/2 pipe pipe with a slot to hold a bolt rope for awnings" Do you know what they would call it or part number or anything more specific? > | 19901|19898|2009-03-16 21:48:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: Back up ....|On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 09:08:24PM -0000, Gary Prebble wrote: > Cloudy windless days are frequent in the inside passage northwest BC > (my location) which can result in dead batteries. I have 2 12 volt > deep cell batteries kept charged by 2 railmount solar pannels. For > past 4 yrs this has been fine... but!! Just wondering what some of the > origami folk are using for back up? Another set of 12 volt batteries > set aside or generator to charge battery charger? I am looking to put > in some kind of back up... Well, I use a lot of juice aboard [1], so I've got 250W worth of solar panels [2] and a 400W wind generator - all backed up by a 3.6kW gas generator as well as my 100+ amp alternator (a delta-wound truck alternator that also drives my welding system.) The price of diesel plus the cost of engine wear from running at low idle makes it more economical to run the gas gen when I need extra power. The generator - a very nice Honda frame-type which I just bought used the other day (looks cherry, less than half the price of new) - also runs my compressor, which lets me have a portable sand-blasting rig aboard, which makes me cheerful as hell. By the way, while I'm on the subject - I'd like to warn everyone about buying the little portable Honda generators (the EU2000 series). This is based on my experience, the experience of other people I've known for several years, and a number of cruisers who came through here recently. These little gens are small for the power output, are very, very quiet (when new, you can't hear them at all from 20 feet away), and very popular. What they're not is cheap, long-lived, easily-serviceable, or cheap to repair. Here's my experience with them: I owned one of these units for about three years; in fact, this $900+ gadget just gave up the ghost a couple of months ago. About a month after I first bought it, it wouldn't start anymore; not wanting to mess with a warrantied system, I took it to the dealer, who charged me $45 ("Warranty? Um, that's only if you send it to the Honda factory...") and muttered something about a spark plug (bullshit. I think I can tell when a plug isn't firing, but whatever.) It then ran pretty well for about 6 months, at which point is suddenly got about twice as loud as it was originally. I took it apart, found where the dealer had mis-assembled it when they put it back together and where it wore out a rubber mount as a result; I also found that the engineering on the thing completely sucked (e.g., the recoil starter cord is routed _backwards_ and thus chafed through every 6 months or so; taking the covers off required a degree in intestinal anatomy; the routing of the fuel hoses was stupid and forced them to unavoidably crimp around corners; the wire connecting the main electronics section was so short that you couldn't take the cover off without disconnecting it, which resulted in wear on the big, complicated plug that was molded into the electronics section - which would have to be replaced as a unit if that plug failed, and cost about what the generator does, and so on.) In any case, the parts that I needed couldn't be ordered - it was dealer-supply only, meaning I'd have to pay them for labor - and so it stayed noisy. After about two years, it started blowing gray smoke. My take on it was that the rings were wearing out. The problem slowly got worse and worse, until, at about the three-year mark, the whole thing finally died completely. The dealer told me that it would cost $680 *just for labor* - it seems that there's _no head_ on those motors, the block is a single unit that gets assembled from the bottom - and tried to charge me $90 for telling me that. I told him to keep the damn thing. In asking others who owned these Honda portables, I didn't meet one single person who saw one last for longer than 3 1/2 years. A guy I knew here replaced his three times over a three year period, and every single owner had expensive and unreasonable problems. By contrast, the frame-type gen I just bought is about 6" wider than the EU2000i and about twice as loud as the portable was. BUT, it can supply 3.6kW surge and 3.2kW max output (as opposed to the portable's 2kW max and 1.6kW max), cost me $300, and uses a Honda 160GX engine, for which I can get a replacement on eBay for under $200. There's no case disassembly, no weird hose or cord routing, it's tough as hell, and - as I'd said - can run my compressor, which the portable could not. I *might*, at some point in the future, replace my current gen with a Kipor 3000THi (a portable like the Honda, but costs a bit less, is supposedly somewhat better designed, and puts out 1kW more all around.) For now, though, I'm happy with the one I've got - noise and all. [1] I use one laptop for everything, and I'm coming to realize the folly of this. It's a big, power-hungry monster, and even my four Trojan golf-carts can't stand up to it for more than a couple of days without more input. Thinking about it some more, I just decided to run out tomorrow and buy a $300 Acer netbook that Staples has on sale; that thing runs for *9 hours* on its own battery. It's small, but I've played around with it and it's definitely useable, even with my big fingers. I suspect that it's going to draw around an amp as opposed to the big HP's _7_ amps. I pride myself on not being stupid for excessive lengths of time (everybody is stupid at some point; the trick is not to let it go on.) Less than two weeks ago, I ran into a bunch of people with netbooks at a Linux expo in California, asked lots of questions, and played with the hardware for a bit; today, I crossed over to realizing that it would solve a big part of my on-board power equation. That's not too bad for my self-image. :) [2] I'm using an MPPT charge controller which converts the entire output of the panels to AC, then converts it back to DC at the correct voltage. I've done a few tests, and that cute little trick gives me about a 20% boost in panel output (the manufacturer promises 0-30% depending on the conditions, and I haven't had a chance to test it in the really hot summer sun.) These things normally sell for over $450, but I managed to score one for $180-something with free shipping. Given the cost of solar panels, that's a very good deal indeed... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19902|19898|2009-03-16 22:09:44|lachica31|Re: Back up ....|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > cheap to repair. Here's my experience with them: > > I owned one of these units for about three years; in fact, this $900+ > gadget just gave up the ghost a couple of months ago. About a month > after I first bought it, it wouldn't start anymore; not wanting to mess > with a warrantied system, I took it to the dealer, who charged me $45 > ("Warranty? Um, that's only if you send it to the Honda factory...") > Kipor 3000THi (a portable like the Honda, but costs a bit less, is > supposedly somewhat better designed, and puts out 1kW more all around.) > For now, though, I'm happy with the one I've got - noise and all. > > > > [1] I use one laptop for everything, and I'm coming to realize the folly > of this. It's a big, power-hungry monster, and even my four Trojan > golf-carts can't stand up to it for more than a couple of days without > more input. Thinking about it some more, I just decided to run out > tomorrow and buy a $300 Acer netbook that Staples has on sale; that > thing runs for *9 hours* on its own battery. It's small, but I've played > around with it and it's definitely useable, even with my big fingers. I > suspect that it's going to draw around an amp as opposed to the big HP's > _7_ amps. > > I pride myself on not being stupid for excessive lengths of time > (everybody is stupid at some point; the trick is not to let it go on.) > Less than two weeks ago, I ran into a bunch of people with netbooks at a > Linux expo in California, asked lots of questions, and played with the > hardware for a bit; today, I crossed over to realizing that it would > solve a big part of my on-board power equation. That's not too bad for > my self-image. :) > Hi Ben, Thanx for the low down on the Honda. I was about to buy one. I think I will buy a Kipor instead. As for Notebooks, I am currently using a Dell mini 9 with Crunchbang! it just flies and you can plug it into an external monitor to get a decent display, I am also now using Crunchbang on my Dell M6300 and that has turned a fast laptop into an absolute screammer. Regards, Paul Thompson| 19903|19894|2009-03-17 00:11:40|Gordon Schnell|Re: Exhaust insulation|Concerning exhaust insulation: If you visit a builders supply warehouse, you'll find they sell pipe insulation in 4' lengths.and various internal diameters ..It's glass wool (1.5 to 2" wall thickness), tightly compacted and wrapped with a foil and paper wrapper with an adhesive "zipper" full length. This allows you to open the unit along it's full length, fit it over the exhaust pipe, close it around the pipe and seal it with the adhesive strip. Elbows and gentler bends can be accomodated by slicing out wedges laterally, to make the corner. Looks great when completed. Then just foam the whole thing and forget it. Gord brentswain38 wrote: > > You can get pink house insulation at any builders supply, like Slegg. > You can get the 3 inch wide tape at Harbour Chandlers or most ship > chandlers. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , "theboilerflue" > wrote: > > > > Carl and Kate or anyone with recommendations where did you get that > insulative wrapping you guys have around your exhaust? > > > > Also speaking of engine heat anyone got suggestions on insulating > the engine room for heat and sound? > > > > | 19904|19894|2009-03-17 00:18:54|Gordon Schnell|Re: Exhaust insulation|The material shown in the weblink:_ __http://www.boilersu pplies.com/ boilergasket/ boilerlist. html#t-tape_ is common from automotive suppliers. It's used for exhaust insulation...just wrap it on and wire wrap to hold it in place. Gord Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 07:02:57PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > Carl and Kate or anyone with recommendations where did you get that > > insulative wrapping you guys have around your exhaust? > > > > Also speaking of engine heat anyone got suggestions on insulating the > > engine room for heat and sound? > > Here's the type of thing that I used: > > http://www.boilersu pplies.com/ boilergasket/ boilerlist. html#t-tape > > > (the roll pictured on the top left) > > A mechanic friend bought it for me, and I don't know who he bought it > from, but this looks exactly right. It works like a charm; a two-layer > wrap of it allows me to sit on the pipe comfortably even after the > engine has been running for an hour. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > | 19905|19894|2009-03-17 10:16:47|Ray|Re: Exhaust insulation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Hey y'all - dumb question, but, wouldn't "header wrap" - the insulated cloth that I used to wrap my Harley's pipes do the same thing? It comes in a roll about 50' long and in 2 to 4" widths - about $50 at your local hotrod shop. Wet it down, wrap it around, and tie the ends down w/hose clamps. One wrap won't give you enough insulation to be able to touch a hot pipe, but, a couple might.| 19906|19894|2009-03-17 10:39:55|Gordon Schnell|Re: Exhaust insulation|Yes! We're talking about the same stuff, Ray. Gord Ray wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , Gordon Schnell .> wrote: > > > > > > Hey y'all - dumb question, but, wouldn't "header wrap" - the insulated > cloth that I used to wrap my Harley's pipes do the same thing? It > comes in a roll about 50' long and in 2 to 4" widths - about $50 at > your local hotrod shop. Wet it down, wrap it around, and tie the ends > down w/hose clamps. > > One wrap won't give you enough insulation to be able to touch a hot > pipe, but, a couple might. > > | 19907|19894|2009-03-17 11:50:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Exhaust insulation|On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 09:18:54PM -0700, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > The material shown in the weblink:_ __http://www.boilersu pplies.com/ > boilergasket/ boilerlist. html#t-tape_ > is > common from automotive suppliers. It's used for exhaust > insulation...just wrap it on and wire wrap to hold it in place. Exactly what I did. Incidentally, one of the best deals around for good seizing wire - whenever they have it - is Harbor Freight's "SS mechanic's wire" (that's what I used to secure my exhaust wrap.) It's a coil that comes in a blue plastic cylinder and costs only a couple of bucks (as opposed to West Marine's, etc. $20 for 20 feet or so...) I use the stuff for everything, including my ClampTite tool; it's flexible, malleable, and very, very strong. It's even better and cheaper than the SS wire that the ClampTite people sell, and that's pretty good wire to start with. Right now, their catalog doesn't show it, but whenever it's around, I suggest everybody grab a spool or five. You'll be using it while you build and while you cruise constantly. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19908|19898|2009-03-17 12:55:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: Back up ....|On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 02:09:36AM -0000, lachica31 wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > Thanx for the low down on the Honda. I was about to buy one. I think I > will buy a Kipor instead. You're welcome! My wife and I did one hell of a lot of research about this - we're probably the world's top experts on small generators now. :) What we came up with is that, for a boat that uses power tools of the range that we use (really, the compressor/sandblaster is the thing that sets the top limit for us), the two top options are a Honda Harmony (open frame) and a Kipor 3000THi, a.k.a. Kipor 2600. The latter is quiet and (reputedly) reliable: the Chinese use one to power the world's highest mobile phone base station, the one on Mount Everest, using a Kipor. The former is greati if you don't mind the noise and can find it used at a good price, and offers the advantage of easy service and inexpensive part replacement. > As for Notebooks, I am currently using a Dell mini 9 with Crunchbang! > it just flies and you can plug it into an external monitor to get a > decent display, I am also now using Crunchbang on my Dell M6300 and > that has turned a fast laptop into an absolute screammer. Thanks, Paul - I'd never heard of #! (as some people spell it) until now, but it sounds like a great thing to put on your Mini. The people at Staples only have a Windows version of their Acer, but the Linux version is even cheaper (no licensing fees), so it'll take me a couple of days to get my netbook, but I'm really looking forward to it. Just might throw #! on it as a dual boot. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19909|19893|2009-03-17 16:21:22|brentswain38|Re: trim tab self steering|One inch would be a bit tight with the hose barbs for bearings, but 1 1/4 would be OK . All windvane bearings should have at least 1/16th clearance and rattle loosly. Otherwise it won't work in light airs. I've never seen the top of the windvane come anywhere near comming off, but I have welded a 3/8th inch ss nut inside the sh 40 pipe , and I have put a 3/8th carriage bolt in with a 1/4 inch bolt tapped into the side between the top of the inside pipe and the carriage bolt to make sure it doesn't fall off in a knockdown. The polyurethane that I got from Home Hardware was Lepages Bulldog grip urethane, the stuff that comes in colours. It was $6.99 a tube. The cheaper stuff( $4 a tube) was not as good. I have been recently told that anything with Zylene in will eventually cause Plexi to craze. Doug used permatex ultra black silicone, available from Hartmans, and said it was the first time he had ports that didn't leak.I used that last time and so far no problems. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > OK two questions about this wind vane thing. I was building it last night till i ran out of stainless welding rod. > 1. on on the plans it shows 1 1/2" pipe for the vertical mounting pipe > why 1 1/2 inch it seems that it would be easier to use 1" so that there is a huge gap to fill with bushing? Or does the wind vane need LOTS! of clearance or is there some other reason? > > 2. On my plans it show's the 1/2" pipe running up inside the stainless tube about 1/3 of the way up. What is to stop the wind vane from just getting lifted right off the 1/2" pipe? Or does that just not happen, I guess it would be pretty easy to fix but i was wondering if the plans showed this for some reason I'm unaware of? > > 3. Brent, what was the name of that window gasket stuff form central builders? bulldog something rather? > | 19910|19898|2009-03-17 16:25:31|brentswain38|Re: Back up ....|My chinese generator doesn't fire at all now, not even on starting fluid. I think the lack of any kind of filtre from gas tank to carb is the problem. It would be a good idea to put one in the fuel line as soon as you buy one. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 02:09:36AM -0000, lachica31 wrote: > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > Thanx for the low down on the Honda. I was about to buy one. I think I > > will buy a Kipor instead. > > You're welcome! My wife and I did one hell of a lot of research about > this - we're probably the world's top experts on small generators now. > :) What we came up with is that, for a boat that uses power tools of the > range that we use (really, the compressor/sandblaster is the thing that > sets the top limit for us), the two top options are a Honda Harmony > (open frame) and a Kipor 3000THi, a.k.a. Kipor 2600. The latter is quiet > and (reputedly) reliable: the Chinese use one to power the world's > highest mobile phone base station, the one on Mount Everest, using a > Kipor. The former is greati if you don't mind the noise and can find it > used at a good price, and offers the advantage of easy service and > inexpensive part replacement. > > > As for Notebooks, I am currently using a Dell mini 9 with Crunchbang! > > it just flies and you can plug it into an external monitor to get a > > decent display, I am also now using Crunchbang on my Dell M6300 and > > that has turned a fast laptop into an absolute screammer. > > Thanks, Paul - I'd never heard of #! (as some people spell it) until > now, but it sounds like a great thing to put on your Mini. The people at > Staples only have a Windows version of their Acer, but the Linux version > is even cheaper (no licensing fees), so it'll take me a couple of days > to get my netbook, but I'm really looking forward to it. Just might > throw #! on it as a dual boot. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19911|19898|2009-03-18 06:46:15|sae140|Re: Back up ....|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > My chinese generator doesn't fire at all now, not even on starting fluid. I think the lack of any kind of filtre from gas tank to carb is the problem. It would be a good idea to put one in the fuel line as soon as you buy one. > Brent I've found that small Briggs and Stratton lawn-mower engines that are left for long periods with fuel in their tanks often refuse to start due to 'varnish' from the strange fuel we get these days clogging up the carb jets. Dunking the dismantled carb body in a jar of acetone for 10 mins usually does the trick, although on one occasion an overnight soak did cause a rubber seal in the carb to swell and rupture. The solution of course is to run the carb dry if planning to not use the engine for a while, which in the case of small lawn-mower and generator engines can mean running the tank dry if they are a combined unit. Colin| 19912|19899|2009-03-18 06:57:35|sae140|Re: Can table to glass be used for portlights/windows?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Kokemooor" wrote: > > When I took some donations to a local charity thrift shop today, my eye fell on a glass coffee table top 1/2" thick and I wondered whether it or something like it could be used when it comes time to put in ports and windows. I did some searching on the internet and found out some things, but still have some questions. > > What I found out: 1/4" and 3/8" tops are tempered. Tempered glass cannot be cut; it just shatters into small relatively small safe shards. 1/2" glass tops are not tempered, at least from one supplier, and so could be cut by an amateur, at least in theory. How that is done I have not been able to discover. A British amateur cabinetmaking site said that thicker glass is cut the same way as thinner glass, but that table tops in UK are required to be tempered and so cannot be cut. Apparently untempered glass can to some degree be ground, so it might be possible to cut with a diamond cutoff wheel using plenty of lubricant to keep it from getting too hot. > > On the other hand, there is plenty of precut glass about, and not as expensive as might be imagined. www.glasstopsdirect.com for example is selling 6"x15"x1/2" for $12.95 plus $16.00 shipping, and 12"x15"x1/2" for $20.95 plus $20.00 shipping. True, that's not cheap cheap, but thick Plexiglass or Lexan is not cheap either. Another company had delivery trucks visiting major cities frequently; you order and then meet the truck when scheduled. I have not dealt with any of these companies myself. > > Anyone know more about this subject? I recall Brent mentioning using 1/2" glass in the front of his pilot house and remarking on its clarity and suitability for windshield wipers. > It might be worth making contact with a glazier who specialises in shop front windows - they must create huge amounts of off-cuts in the normal course of business, plus of course the damaged windows they replace. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the glass they use is half-inch: 2 x 1/4" with a layer of plastic laminated in-between. Haven't a clue how they cut laminated glass - maybe with an abrasive water-lubed wheel ... ?| 19913|19898|2009-03-18 08:54:15|Ray|Re: Back up ....|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > I've found that small Briggs and Stratton lawn-mower engines that are left for long periods with fuel in their tanks often refuse to start due to 'varnish' from the strange fuel we get these days clogging up the carb jets. One additional approach is to dump some "SeaFoam" in your gas tank a day or two before you need to start the engine, and pull the engine through a couple revolutions to suck some of this stuff through the carb. It's intended to "clean out" 2-stroke outboards that were fogged for the winter, and works pretty well at cleaning up the varnish and sludge left behind by evaporated gasoline. I use it on all my engines- comes in a white/red can, usually available @ WalMart and most chain Auto Parts stores. Hope this helps, Ray| 19914|19898|2009-03-18 09:38:34|Ben Okopnik|Re: Back up ....|On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 12:54:08PM -0000, Ray wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > > I've found that small Briggs and Stratton lawn-mower engines that > > are left for long periods with fuel in their tanks often refuse to > > start due to 'varnish' from the strange fuel we get these days > > clogging up the carb jets. > > > One additional approach is to dump some "SeaFoam" in your gas tank a > day or two before you need to start the engine, and pull the engine > through a couple revolutions to suck some of this stuff through the > carb. [laugh] Damn, Ray, you beat me to it. That's what I was going to say, pretty much word for word. Sea Foam is pretty good stuff. I've used it on my outboard, too, when the local marina turned out to have had water in its gas (everybody here had huge problems out of that, blown heads and all, and the marina ended up having to rebuild its underground storage tanks.) Instead of dying and choking and coughing and sputtering, it started running fine again. This was especially useful since Tropical Storm Faye was working its way through here, my dinghy was the only one out of the entire anchorage that could move around in that rough water, and stalling would have been a bad, bad thing. Incidentally, I just ran across a post in another group comparing Sea Foam and Yamaha's Ringfree that's worth reading: http://tinyurl.com/d6w97n -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19915|19893|2009-03-18 13:42:43|theboilerflue|Re: trim tab self steering. Cutlass bearing|Thanks Brent. I figured that there would have to be something to hold the vane on just in case... Central builders in town doesn't carry any of Lepage's "bulldog" stuff any more i don't know if they just changed the packaging but i couldn't find any polyurethane that would claim to stay soft, the only poly stuff was that construction adhesive and something tells me that wouldn't work. I'll try that stuff from Hartmans, funny though when i talked to Doug last summer he told me he used SunderFlex by Loctite for his portholes (he wrote it down for me and i've been carrying it around in my wallet ever since waiting for the time when i need to get it) I'll see what combination of 1"/1 1/2" + hosebarb i can come up with and finish the thing up. I'm doing all the fiddly little jobs here and there that I've skipped over before, in preference of something else more important, it's nice pretty much just waiting for warmer weather to spray foam. Also the brass bushing it got wasn't the right size. the stern tube is 1 1/2" sch 40 which has a 1.610 ID and my shaft is 1 1/4" and they tell me they can't get one with those specs.I was thinking that i'd just try and take the current one down a bit on the outside but i thought it kinda strange that 1.610 wasn't a common size since it's regular sch 40 pipe anyway, any suggestions on what to for future replacements? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: One inch would be a bit tight with the hose barbs for bearings, but 1 1/4 would be OK . All windvane bearings should have at least 1/16th clearance and rattle loosly. Otherwise it won't work in light airs. I've never seen the top of the windvane come anywhere near comming off, but I have welded a 3/8th inch ss nut inside the sh 40 pipe , and I have put a 3/8th carriage bolt in with a 1/4 inch bolt tapped into the side between the top of the inside pipe and the carriage bolt to make sure it doesn't fall off in a knockdown. The polyurethane that I got from Home Hardware was Lepages Bulldog grip urethane, the stuff that comes in colours. It was $6.99 a tube. The cheaper stuff( $4 a tube) was not as good. I have been recently told that anything with Zylene in will eventually cause Plexi to craze. Doug used permatex ultra black silicone, available from Hartmans, and said it was the first time he had ports that didn't leak.I used that last time and so far no problems. Brent | 19916|19893|2009-03-18 14:14:00|brentswain38|Re: trim tab self steering. Cutlass bearing|You can make up a stainless sleeve with a collar on to take up the slack in the stern bearing. It makes it very easy to take it out without removing the shaft. I'll be up your way soon. Karl on Lungta over in the low rent district has the split 1 1/4 sch 40 aluminium pipe on his furler from Forsyth. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Thanks Brent. I figured that there would have to be something to hold the vane on just in case... Central builders in town doesn't carry any of Lepage's "bulldog" stuff any more i don't know if they just changed the packaging but i couldn't find any polyurethane that would claim to stay soft, the only poly stuff was that construction adhesive and something tells me that wouldn't work. I'll try that stuff from Hartmans, funny though when i talked to Doug last summer he told me he used SunderFlex by Loctite for his portholes (he wrote it down for me and i've been carrying it around in my wallet ever since waiting for the time when i need to get it) > I'll see what combination of 1"/1 1/2" + hosebarb i can come up with and finish the thing up. I'm doing all the fiddly little jobs here and there that I've skipped over before, in preference of something else more important, it's nice pretty much just waiting for warmer weather to spray foam. > > Also the brass bushing it got wasn't the right size. the stern tube is 1 1/2" sch 40 which has a 1.610 ID and my shaft is 1 1/4" and they tell me they can't get one with those specs.I was thinking that i'd just try and take the current one down a bit on the outside but i thought it kinda strange that 1.610 wasn't a common size since it's regular sch 40 pipe anyway, any suggestions on what to for future replacements? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > One inch would be a bit tight with the hose barbs for bearings, but 1 1/4 would be OK . All windvane bearings should have at least 1/16th clearance and rattle loosly. Otherwise it won't work in light airs. > I've never seen the top of the windvane come anywhere near comming off, but I have welded a 3/8th inch ss nut inside the sh 40 pipe , and I have put a 3/8th carriage bolt in with a 1/4 inch bolt tapped into the side between the top of the inside pipe and the carriage bolt to make sure it doesn't fall off in a knockdown. > The polyurethane that I got from Home Hardware was Lepages Bulldog grip urethane, the stuff that comes in colours. It was $6.99 a tube. The cheaper stuff( $4 a tube) was not as good. I have been recently told that anything with Zylene in will eventually cause Plexi to craze. Doug used permatex ultra black silicone, available from Hartmans, and said it was the first time he had ports that didn't leak.I used that last time and so far no problems. > Brent > | 19917|19898|2009-03-18 14:15:34|brentswain38|Re: Back up ....|A friend has had good luck with gas stabiliser to stop gas form getting to old. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > My chinese generator doesn't fire at all now, not even on starting fluid. I think the lack of any kind of filtre from gas tank to carb is the problem. It would be a good idea to put one in the fuel line as soon as you buy one. > > Brent > > I've found that small Briggs and Stratton lawn-mower engines that are left for long periods with fuel in their tanks often refuse to start due to 'varnish' from the strange fuel we get these days clogging up the carb jets. > Dunking the dismantled carb body in a jar of acetone for 10 mins usually does the trick, although on one occasion an overnight soak did cause a rubber seal in the carb to swell and rupture. > The solution of course is to run the carb dry if planning to not use the engine for a while, which in the case of small lawn-mower and generator engines can mean running the tank dry if they are a combined unit. > Colin > | 19918|19898|2009-03-18 15:41:45|Ray|Re: Back up ....|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > Incidentally, I just ran across a post in another group comparing Sea > Foam and Yamaha's Ringfree that's worth reading: > > http://tinyurl.com/d6w97n Thanks Ben - I've actually got to de-carbon a set of old Sportster heads this weekend - I'll give this stuff a go!| 19919|19919|2009-03-18 17:10:59|mark hamill|Composting Head dimensions|DIY "Natureshead/Airhead" Composting Toilet Dimensions Based on discussion from the Origami Boatbuilding Group Abbreviations: Airhead (AH)--www.airheadtoilet.com Natureshead (NH)--www.natureshead.net Brent Swain (BS) Ben Okopnick (BO) Dimensions: BS dimensions: Outer Bowl is 12"W X 141/2" long, Inner 11"X8". The slope is 3 1/2" Back and 4 ½" Front . NH slope is 6" front and 5" back. BO owns an NH and would recommend increasing length 3" for larger people. BS main hole is 4", NH 4 ½". BS main hole 2" from back, NH ¾". Urine hole BS 1". The urine tanks are about 2 gallons. The complete units are 18 to near 20" high. Total width with tanks 17.5" to 17.75". Base natureshead 13 x13" square, airhead 12.32 round Feb. 14 2009 Brent Swain I just checked the dimensions for the composter head top. The bowl is 4 1/2 inches deep at the front and 3 1/2 inches deep at the back. It is 8 inches wide by 11 inches long. The outside dimensions for the seat are 12 inches wide by 14 1/2 inches long. The Conservative birth canal is 4 inches diameter and 2 inches from the back of the bowl. The liquids drain is one inch diameter. The lip around the Conservative birth canal is 3/4 inch high. Taking a stainless 8 inch mixing bowl and laying up a fibreglass bowl inside it, cutting the FG bowl in half and laying up an extra 3 inch wide strip joining the two halves should give you the right dimensions for the bowl , either for the bowl or the mold . Cutting it for the right depth at both ends lets you put it on a board and put the raised lip around the ends , and the tory bith canal for the full mold. Some have said that the musty smell makes you unpopular in marinas, but I think one could weld in a box on the vent pipe into which one could insert one of those deoderizers you see in urinals This could be easily replaced from time to time and the vent air would blow past it without restriction. I have found that when the anerobic bacteria takes over and things get smelly, adding a package of sanibac septic tank bacteria eliminates the anerobic smelly bacterial quickly. The lid could be one from an existing head as you won't get anything for your used head anyway, or a plywood one could be easily made up. A plastic 2 inch ID thru hull could be the vent outlet. Brent Feb 16,2009 Ben Okopnik I started to follow up to this with my own measurements, and then realized that pictures would also be useful - so I created a web page. While I was at it, I wrote up a bunch of commentary about the Nature's Head, and I'm going to email the NH people with a link to it (maybe they'll get some useful clues out of it.) In any case, here it is, measurements and all: http://okopnik.com/head.html General outer dimensions and instructions for the commercial units are available at their sites. One might also want to refer to the Humanure Toilet http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/sawdustoilet.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19920|19898|2009-03-18 17:58:47|Paul Wilson|Re: Back up ....|Oven cleaner works great for taking carbon off engine parts as well...as long as the engine is disassembled :). Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:42 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Back up .... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Ben Okopnik wrote: > > Incidentally, I just ran across a post in another group comparing Sea > Foam and Yamaha's Ringfree that's worth reading: > > http://tinyurl.com/d6w97n Thanks Ben - I've actually got to de-carbon a set of old Sportster heads this weekend - I'll give this stuff a go! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19921|19921|2009-03-18 19:53:11|nikitodd|Sailing performance comments|I have pretty much "drunk the kool-aid" with regard to these boats, but I would like a bit more insight from those who have spent some time sailing them. I have the book and the DVD, and have no reservations about the construction of a Swain hull. What I want to know is: what real-world compromises am I making in terms of performance? How does the 36 with twin keels handle to windward? How easy is it to single-hand if rigged with roller reefing? How does it perform in light airs? Is the sail plan a good match? What would you change or recommend at the building stage that is not already in Brent's book or Alex's DVD? I know its not a light-displacement, flat-bottomed, fin keeled plastic boat, so I don't expect it to perform like one. I just want some general impressions of how it sails for a coastal cruising couple looking to explore this coast (with possible offshore aspirations). Cheers to all, Todd| 19922|19898|2009-03-19 08:29:14|Ray|Re: Back up ....|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Oven cleaner works great for taking carbon off engine parts as well...as > long as the engine is disassembled :). > > > > Cheers, Paul A wealth of knowledge - I'd never considered that! Dumb question: will it hurt Aluminum parts? The engine's disassembled, cases split, ready to put it together with a new bottom end.| 19923|19898|2009-03-19 09:01:04|J Fisher|Re: Back up ....|Yes, it can eat the aluminum. Just don't let it sit for a long time. John -------Original Message------- From: Ray Date: 3/19/2009 5:29:19 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Back up .... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Oven cleaner works great for taking carbon off engine parts as well...as > long as the engine is disassembled :). > > > > Cheers, Paul A wealth of knowledge - I'd never considered that! Dumb question: will it hurt Aluminum parts? The engine's disassembled, cases split, ready to put it together with a new bottom end. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19924|19921|2009-03-19 13:18:10|silascrosby|Spit out the Koolaid.|Spit out the Kool-Aid, quick! It's not too late. If Brent is a cult leader we are all in trouble. Wait, that's the way cults are supposed to be though, isn't it ? Maximum of 5 knots hard on the wind with any chop. Another knot in smooth water. Maybe better with brand new good sails and a feathering prop, but who has those ? Very easy and forgiving to singlehand. The problem is that it is easier to singlehand than to get a crew so you usually end up alone on the boat. Good if that's what you want. Light air performance seems to depend on sail area(duh), I have a 47'mast and a 16' boom and a conventional battened roach which makes for a big main and quite good light air sailing. Others have opted for the smaller main and, unless they have a 'drifter', light winds are not so much fun. Probably much like on Westsail 32's, which go really well with good sails and careful attention. An outstanding characteristic is the ability to sail straight downwind,wing and wing, using the relatively crude and simple windvane to trim-tab design for hours or days ,coastal or offshore without a worry. Lots of yawing especially in coastal square waves but almost never enough to get caught aback. This is a subject that comes up time and again but I never tire of it. I am always interested to hear of other experienced Swain boat sailors, especially but not only twin-keel, tell of their methods and tricks in difficult sailing conditions, light wind or strong. If all goes well, we will be leaving in 1 1/2 yrs for a big trip to Mexico - Galapagos -Easter Island- Chile and onwards.I would love to get to S Georgia. It is only discomfort and bad weather that stands in the way. This koolaid isn't like Jonestown, it's more like Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. Steve. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nikitodd" wrote: > > I have pretty much "drunk the kool-aid" with regard to these boats, but I would like a bit more insight from those who have spent some time sailing them. > > I have the book and the DVD, and have no reservations about the construction of a Swain hull. What I want to know is: what real-world compromises am I making in terms of performance? > > How does the 36 with twin keels handle to windward? How easy is it to single-hand if rigged with roller reefing? How does it perform in light airs? Is the sail plan a good match? What would you change or recommend at the building stage that is not already in Brent's book or Alex's DVD? > > I know its not a light-displacement, flat-bottomed, fin keeled plastic boat, so I don't expect it to perform like one. I just want some general impressions of how it sails for a coastal cruising couple looking to explore this coast (with possible offshore aspirations). > > Cheers to all, > > Todd > | 19928|19921|2009-03-20 21:09:19|brentswain38|Re: Sailing performance comments|My heavily loaded twin keel 31 has made two 23 day passages from Hawaii to BC. The first 1,000 miles was hard on the wind, 20 knot trade winds.My best run going south was 175 miles in 24 hours no appreciable current. The rig height is a trade off. Higher and you sail better in light airs, but reef sooner. My 36 has outsailed C&C's Beneteaus and Coopers going to windward in light airs , even heavily loaded. Light air performance is also dependent on how much of a packrat you are . I'm definitly a packrat. Speed is also dependent on balance and not having to shorten sail to early too retain control and self steering. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nikitodd" wrote: > > I have pretty much "drunk the kool-aid" with regard to these boats, but I would like a bit more insight from those who have spent some time sailing them. > > I have the book and the DVD, and have no reservations about the construction of a Swain hull. What I want to know is: what real-world compromises am I making in terms of performance? > > How does the 36 with twin keels handle to windward? How easy is it to single-hand if rigged with roller reefing? How does it perform in light airs? Is the sail plan a good match? What would you change or recommend at the building stage that is not already in Brent's book or Alex's DVD? > > I know its not a light-displacement, flat-bottomed, fin keeled plastic boat, so I don't expect it to perform like one. I just want some general impressions of how it sails for a coastal cruising couple looking to explore this coast (with possible offshore aspirations). > > Cheers to all, > > Todd > | 19929|19929|2009-03-21 09:13:21|lost_sd@yahoo.com|Make money Now !!! 1- Join Memolink For Free Becoming a |Make money Now !!! 1- Join Memolink For Free Becoming a Memolink member is simple and takes less than a minute. 2- Earn Points Earn points for completing surveys and shopping online. Start with 100 points. 3- Redeem For Rewards Exchange your points for the reward of your choice - cash, gift cards, or donate them to a charitable organization. Click here >>> http://dynamic-lab-2009.blogspot.com/2009/01/3-steps-will-change-your-life.html| 19930|19930|2009-03-21 13:00:24|lost_sd@yahoo.com|2 GB of 100% free space.|2 GB of 100% free space. Get 2 GB absolutely free! No setup fee, no credit cards, no expiration, no hassle. Click here >>> http://dynamic-lab-2009.blogspot.com/2009/01/get-2-gb-absolutely-free.html| 19931|19931|2009-03-22 03:13:10|matchejomfriends|You're invited!|You are invited to join my social network, check my friends list here: http://flirty.zoomshare.com/files/myphoto.htm| 19932|19932|2009-03-22 15:35:31|lachica31|Thickness of Neoprene port gasket|In Brent's book he said that he used 6mm Neoprene closed cell foam for gasket material. I have 3mm Neoprene. Is this thick enough? Or do I need to double up? Lastly Brent, did you use the Neoprene gasket on your glass ports as well? Or did you just rely on the sealant? What sealant dit you use? Regards, Paul Thompson| 19933|19932|2009-03-22 16:25:39|brentswain38|Re: Thickness of Neoprene port gasket|3mm is ok if the surface is flat and fair. I used permatex ultra copper . Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > In Brent's book he said that he used 6mm Neoprene closed cell foam for gasket material. I have 3mm Neoprene. Is this thick enough? Or do I need to double up? > > Lastly Brent, did you use the Neoprene gasket on your glass ports as well? Or did you just rely on the sealant? What sealant dit you use? > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 19934|19934|2009-03-22 16:44:19|lachica31|Chiney/stove/stack connection|Guys, How do you connect the chimney to the stove and to the through deck fitting and also the stack it's self on the above deck side? Are you just sleeving it? Bolting it? Welding it? In my opinion it needs to be removable. I am thinking along the lines of sleeving it to the stove and through deck fitting (inside) and putting a flange on and bolting the stack to the through deck fitting on the deck side. I would also make a cover that can be bolted in place of the stack should I want to remove it. Regards, Paul Thompson| 19935|19921|2009-03-22 16:59:45|brentswain38|Re: Spit out the Koolaid.|On my last run south I left Vancouver Island at the start of a good westerly and was south of Hawaii in 14 days. When Will sailed the Pearl song west from Mexico he covered 1006 miles in six days , nearly a 7.5 knot average , beating to windward, then broke the top 1/3rd off his mast , but still beat most of the boats he left Mexico with to Hawaii by several days , under jury rig. She was one of my 36 footers with a single keel. Steve has raced his twin keeler against a single keel 36 , and concluded there was little difference off the wind, but the 36 was marginally faster to windward. He wants a rematch. There is no comparison between my boats and a Wetsnail. My boats are a far more modern and lighter hull shape with a much smaller wetted surface and a transom, making them far less prone to hobby horse. My first cruising boat was a pipe dream designed by Kiney. It was a disaster downwind, with no directional stability whatever . Sailing her to New Zealand a was a constant struggle to keep her on course.I usually had to sail undercanvased to keep her on course, losing a lot of speed in the proccess. For my second boat I bought the myth of a full length keel being the key to directional stability , not understanding the relationship between hull shape and dirctional stability, something that many designers to this day don't understand. She was cantankerous on the helm and hard to steer. When I learned of the relationship between hull shape and directional stabilty I became determined to do everything possible to make directional stability a main priority. Boats I've designed since are extremely light on the helm, enabling one to use the toughest and simplest self steering rigs ever designed. The kool aid line reminds me of the story about a first grade teacher getting the kids to guess the flavour of the lifesavers she was giving them . They guessed the Cherry flavoured ones immediately, then the orange flavoured ones. When she gave them honey flavoured ones they were baffled . She said "Come on. You know what those are." They said "No teacher" She said " I'll give you a hint. What does your mother call your father?" A little girl shouted " Quick. Spit them out. They're assholes" Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Spit out the Kool-Aid, quick! It's not too late. If Brent is a cult leader we are all in trouble. Wait, that's the way cults are supposed to be though, isn't it ? > Maximum of 5 knots hard on the wind with any chop. Another knot in smooth water. Maybe better with brand new good sails and a feathering prop, but who has those ? > Very easy and forgiving to singlehand. The problem is that it is easier to singlehand than to get a crew so you usually end up alone on the boat. Good if that's what you want. > Light air performance seems to depend on sail area(duh), I have a 47'mast and a 16' boom and a conventional battened roach which makes for a big main and quite good light air sailing. Others have opted for the smaller main and, unless they have a 'drifter', light winds are not so much fun. Probably much like on Westsail 32's, which go really well with good sails and careful attention. > An outstanding characteristic is the ability to sail straight downwind,wing and wing, using the relatively crude and simple windvane to trim-tab design for hours or days ,coastal or offshore without a worry. Lots of yawing especially in coastal square waves but almost never enough to get caught aback. > This is a subject that comes up time and again but I never tire of it. > I am always interested to hear of other experienced Swain boat sailors, especially but not only twin-keel, tell of their methods and tricks in difficult sailing conditions, light wind or strong. > > If all goes well, we will be leaving in 1 1/2 yrs for a big trip to Mexico - Galapagos -Easter Island- Chile and onwards.I would love to get to S Georgia. It is only discomfort and bad weather that stands in the way. > > This koolaid isn't like Jonestown, it's more like Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. > > > > Steve. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nikitodd" wrote: > > > > I have pretty much "drunk the kool-aid" with regard to these boats, but I would like a bit more insight from those who have spent some time sailing them. > > > > I have the book and the DVD, and have no reservations about the construction of a Swain hull. What I want to know is: what real-world compromises am I making in terms of performance? > > > > How does the 36 with twin keels handle to windward? How easy is it to single-hand if rigged with roller reefing? How does it perform in light airs? Is the sail plan a good match? What would you change or recommend at the building stage that is not already in Brent's book or Alex's DVD? > > > > I know its not a light-displacement, flat-bottomed, fin keeled plastic boat, so I don't expect it to perform like one. I just want some general impressions of how it sails for a coastal cruising couple looking to explore this coast (with possible offshore aspirations). > > > > Cheers to all, > > > > Todd > > > | 19936|19934|2009-03-22 17:35:25|brentswain38|Re: Chiney/stove/stack connection|I weld it in with at least an inch or two of stainless around the chimney. I used to take it down and put it ashore when going south, but damnned near froze on my last trip home , so wont be leaving it beind next time.In the tropics I'll clean it out and use the stove and chimney for canned food storage. More to come. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > Guys, > > How do you connect the chimney to the stove and to the through deck fitting and also the stack it's self on the above deck side? > > Are you just sleeving it? Bolting it? Welding it? > > In my opinion it needs to be removable. I am thinking along the lines of sleeving it to the stove and through deck fitting (inside) and putting a flange on and bolting the stack to the through deck fitting on the deck side. > > I would also make a cover that can be bolted in place of the stack should I want to remove it. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 19937|19934|2009-03-22 17:57:39|lachica31|Re: Chiney/stove/stack connection|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I weld it in with at least an inch or two of stainless around the chimney. I used to take it down and put it ashore when going south, but damnned near froze on my last trip home , so wont be leaving it beind next time.In the tropics I'll clean it out and use the stove and chimney for canned food storage. > More to come. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > Guys, > > > > How do you connect the chimney to the stove and to the through deck fitting and also the stack it's self on the above deck side? > > > > Are you just sleeving it? Bolting it? Welding it? > > > > In my opinion it needs to be removable. I am thinking along the lines of sleeving it to the stove and through deck fitting (inside) and putting a flange on and bolting the stack to the through deck fitting on the deck side. > > > > I would also make a cover that can be bolted in place of the stack should I want to remove it. Brent, My reasons for thinking that removable might be a good idea is that I will be sailing in the Southern Ocean. Should I encounter survival or near survival conditions. it might be a good idea to pull the chimney before the sea does it for me. Regards, Paul Thompson| 19938|19921|2009-03-22 18:34:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Spit out the Koolaid.|I have twice gone over a thousand miles in 6.5 days in my 36 single keeler. I sail with too many spares and too many tools so am always overloaded. Compare the performance with any other boat of the same size with a 125 gallon water tank and a 90 gallon fuel tank like on my 36. I have hit 9 knots many times and was once going consistently 10.5 knots for about 3 hours. Westsails could never come even close to that. If people tell you it's all downwind offshore, don't believe it. I have never had an ideal wind and always seem to sail to windward no matter where I go. Close reaching or beam reaching if I have 12 knots of wind, I do at least 6 knots. I only had 8 days with the wind aft of the beam from Canada to Fiji and they were sporadic and light. One day I will go downwind, scoot down the waves and see how she can really go. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 10:00 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Spit out the Koolaid. On my last run south I left Vancouver Island at the start of a good westerly and was south of Hawaii in 14 days. When Will sailed the Pearl song west from Mexico he covered 1006 miles in six days , nearly a 7.5 knot average , beating to windward, then broke the top 1/3rd off his mast , but still beat most of the boats he left Mexico with to Hawaii by several days , under jury rig. She was one of my 36 footers with a single keel. Steve has raced his twin keeler against a single keel 36 , and concluded there was little difference off the wind, but the 36 was marginally faster to windward. He wants a rematch. There is no comparison between my boats and a Wetsnail. My boats are a far more modern and lighter hull shape with a much smaller wetted surface and a transom, making them far less prone to hobby horse. My first cruising boat was a pipe dream designed by Kiney. It was a disaster downwind, with no directional stability whatever . Sailing her to New Zealand a was a constant struggle to keep her on course.I usually had to sail undercanvased to keep her on course, losing a lot of speed in the proccess. For my second boat I bought the myth of a full length keel being the key to directional stability , not understanding the relationship between hull shape and dirctional stability, something that many designers to this day don't understand. She was cantankerous on the helm and hard to steer. When I learned of the relationship between hull shape and directional stabilty I became determined to do everything possible to make directional stability a main priority. Boats I've designed since are extremely light on the helm, enabling one to use the toughest and simplest self steering rigs ever designed. The kool aid line reminds me of the story about a first grade teacher getting the kids to guess the flavour of the lifesavers she was giving them . They guessed the Cherry flavoured ones immediately, then the orange flavoured ones. When she gave them honey flavoured ones they were baffled . She said "Come on. You know what those are." They said "No teacher" She said " I'll give you a hint. What does your mother call your father?" A little girl shouted " Quick. Spit them out. They're assholes" Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "silascrosby" wrote: > > Spit out the Kool-Aid, quick! It's not too late. If Brent is a cult leader we are all in trouble. Wait, that's the way cults are supposed to be though, isn't it ? > Maximum of 5 knots hard on the wind with any chop. Another knot in smooth water. Maybe better with brand new good sails and a feathering prop, but who has those ? > Very easy and forgiving to singlehand. The problem is that it is easier to singlehand than to get a crew so you usually end up alone on the boat. Good if that's what you want. > Light air performance seems to depend on sail area(duh), I have a 47'mast and a 16' boom and a conventional battened roach which makes for a big main and quite good light air sailing. Others have opted for the smaller main and, unless they have a 'drifter', light winds are not so much fun. Probably much like on Westsail 32's, which go really well with good sails and careful attention. > An outstanding characteristic is the ability to sail straight downwind,wing and wing, using the relatively crude and simple windvane to trim-tab design for hours or days ,coastal or offshore without a worry. Lots of yawing especially in coastal square waves but almost never enough to get caught aback. > This is a subject that comes up time and again but I never tire of it. > I am always interested to hear of other experienced Swain boat sailors, especially but not only twin-keel, tell of their methods and tricks in difficult sailing conditions, light wind or strong. > > If all goes well, we will be leaving in 1 1/2 yrs for a big trip to Mexico - Galapagos -Easter Island- Chile and onwards.I would love to get to S Georgia. It is only discomfort and bad weather that stands in the way. > > This koolaid isn't like Jonestown, it's more like Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. > > > > Steve. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "nikitodd" wrote: > > > > I have pretty much "drunk the kool-aid" with regard to these boats, but I would like a bit more insight from those who have spent some time sailing them. > > > > I have the book and the DVD, and have no reservations about the construction of a Swain hull. What I want to know is: what real-world compromises am I making in terms of performance? > > > > How does the 36 with twin keels handle to windward? How easy is it to single-hand if rigged with roller reefing? How does it perform in light airs? Is the sail plan a good match? What would you change or recommend at the building stage that is not already in Brent's book or Alex's DVD? > > > > I know its not a light-displacement, flat-bottomed, fin keeled plastic boat, so I don't expect it to perform like one. I just want some general impressions of how it sails for a coastal cruising couple looking to explore this coast (with possible offshore aspirations). > > > > Cheers to all, > > > > Todd > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19939|19898|2009-03-23 11:56:39|will jones|Re: Back up ....|I must second this.  DO NOT use any sodium hydroxide products with aluminum.  Oven cleaners and many types of drain cleaners are typically hydroxide products.  You can start a metal fire mixing sodium hydroxide and aluminum. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Thu, 3/19/09, J Fisher wrote: From: J Fisher Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Back up .... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 9:52 AM Yes, it can eat the aluminum. Just don't let it sit for a long time. John -------Original Message----- -- From: Ray Date: 3/19/2009 5:29:19 AM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Back up .... --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Oven cleaner works great for taking carbon off engine parts as well...as > long as the engine is disassembled :). > > > > Cheers, Paul A wealth of knowledge - I'd never considered that! Dumb question: will it hurt Aluminum parts? The engine's disassembled, cases split, ready to put it together with a new bottom end. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19940|19940|2009-03-23 14:26:55|Carl Anderson|insulation for sale|Aspen Aerogel Spaceloft: I have some leftover aerogel insulation for sale. I used it for the insulation on my refrigerator box to save inside space. About 100 sq. ft. (maybe more) of Spaceloft 9251 (9mm thick). Roll is 56" wide. This has a value of R10 per inch (each layer of this 9mm has R4). Only higher R value is by going to a vacuum panel. Asking $1/sq. ft. for the remainder of what I have (1/3 the original price). Carl & Kate sv-mom.com| 19941|19934|2009-03-23 15:09:39|theboilerflue|Re: Chiney / stove / stack connection|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: Mine's welded in with a stainless plate 4 or 5 inches around where it comes through the cabin roof. I was planning on making it usable as a vent when i take the stove out for those warmer climates. I'm planning on using some stainless flex pipe to connect the stove to the welded in pipe. They use that stainless flex pipe to (re)install wood stoves into older houses nowadays they just run it up the whole chimney so it should be pretty easy to find some scrap sine you'll only need a few feet. > Guys, > > How do you connect the chimney to the stove and to the through deck fitting and also the stack it's self on the above deck side? > > Are you just sleeving it? Bolting it? Welding it? > > In my opinion it needs to be removable. I am thinking along the lines of sleeving it to the stove and through deck fitting (inside) and putting a flange on and bolting the stack to the through deck fitting on the deck side. > > I would also make a cover that can be bolted in place of the stack should I want to remove it. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 19942|19940|2009-03-23 15:31:54|Paul Wilson|Tutorials on-line|Here is a link to some boat maintenance tutorials people might find interesting. http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19943|19934|2009-03-23 19:04:04|Gary Prebble|Re: Chiney/stove/stack connection|Good idea Brent...thanks... got me thinking about just making use of basic gravity. Cylindrical shape of the chimney just feed down a great big pepperoni or kalbosa to fit...just slice of as needed below decks. I think cans would just rattle too much. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I weld it in with at least an inch or two of stainless around the chimney. I used to take it down and put it ashore when going south, but damnned near froze on my last trip home , so wont be leaving it beind next time.In the tropics I'll clean it out and use the stove and chimney for canned food storage. > More to come. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > Guys, > > > > How do you connect the chimney to the stove and to the through deck fitting and also the stack it's self on the above deck side? > > > > Are you just sleeving it? Bolting it? Welding it? > > > > In my opinion it needs to be removable. I am thinking along the lines of sleeving it to the stove and through deck fitting (inside) and putting a flange on and bolting the stack to the through deck fitting on the deck side. > > > > I would also make a cover that can be bolted in place of the stack should I want to remove it. > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > | 19944|19934|2009-03-23 19:33:33|brentswain38|Re: Chiney / stove / stack connection|The double inside - outside sleeving I mentioned works well. Run the top one on the outside of the bottom one and creostote dribles out and stinks like hell. Run the top one inside the bttom one and the creosote stays in. This is all you need inside, but outside it will let the rain inside the pipe. That is why you need both on outside pipes. Best just weld a section of pipe thru the deck. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > Mine's welded in with a stainless plate 4 or 5 inches around where it comes through the cabin roof. I was planning on making it usable as a vent when i take the stove out for those warmer climates. I'm planning on using some stainless flex pipe to connect the stove to the welded in pipe. They use that stainless flex pipe to (re)install wood stoves into older houses nowadays they just run it up the whole chimney so it should be pretty easy to find some scrap sine you'll only need a few feet. > > Guys, > > > > How do you connect the chimney to the stove and to the through deck fitting and also the stack it's self on the above deck side? > > > > Are you just sleeving it? Bolting it? Welding it? > > > > In my opinion it needs to be removable. I am thinking along the lines of sleeving it to the stove and through deck fitting (inside) and putting a flange on and bolting the stack to the through deck fitting on the deck side. > > > > I would also make a cover that can be bolted in place of the stack should I want to remove it. > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > | 19945|19934|2009-03-23 19:38:13|brentswain38|Re: Chiney/stove/stack connection|Scrap yards here have a lot of 1/8th inch thick ss flanges for thin walled 4 inch stainless tubing. My outside chimney has a couple of these welded on and I simply bolt the flanges on each end together to make the stove pipe removeable. ( 4- 3/8th sss bolts) I just finished welding up a stove pipe for a lady on a wooden boat, that used a piece of 4 inch dia by 3 inch long tubing, split and reduced in size to fit inside the 4 inch tubing. This was fully welded to the top pipe. Then another was split and welded to make it larger, to fit over the pipe, and fully welded to the top pipe. Thus when you push the top pipe over the bottom one , it fits both outside and inside the bottom pipe. Rain on the outside runs off and creostote inside stays inside. Drilling and tapping a 5/16th bolt on one or two sides holds it in place. Tie a line thru an eye on the top piece so you can tie it down and prevent losing it at sea. You can leave it tied on when in use. A shackle thru the eye should stop heat from following far enough to burn the line. On my 36 footers where the chimney is alongside the mast, I like to put a 1/8th inch ss ring, about 1 1/2 inches high, around the base of the chimney, to keep the creosote from drooling all over the deck. I weld in a 1/2 inch sch 40 ss drain pipe from the low point of ring , under the side deck, to the topside to take this creosote overboard ,greatly reducing stains on the decks. I also have one at the top of the stove pipe, with a piece of plastic tubing leading outboard to take creosote stains from there overboard. I have found the best chimney top is a bent piece of 16 guiage stainless. fore and aft for coastal cruising and athwartships for offshore. Anchore by bow or stern , you just turn one end up and you have a draft already started before lighting the stove . Off shore it needs to be bolted athwartship ( bolts for and aft)for beam reaching. I have found that paint on mild steel within an inch or two of the 4 inch stove pipe will burn. That is why |I use stainless for that part. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I weld it in with at least an inch or two of stainless around the chimney. I used to take it down and put it ashore when going south, but damnned near froze on my last trip home , so wont be leaving it beind next time.In the tropics I'll clean it out and use the stove and chimney for canned food storage. > > More to come. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > > > Guys, > > > > > > How do you connect the chimney to the stove and to the through deck fitting and also the stack it's self on the above deck side? > > > > > > Are you just sleeving it? Bolting it? Welding it? > > > > > > In my opinion it needs to be removable. I am thinking along the lines of sleeving it to the stove and through deck fitting (inside) and putting a flange on and bolting the stack to the through deck fitting on the deck side. > > > > > > I would also make a cover that can be bolted in place of the stack should I want to remove it. > > Brent, > > My reasons for thinking that removable might be a good idea is that I will be sailing in the Southern Ocean. Should I encounter survival or near survival conditions. it might be a good idea to pull the chimney before the sea does it for me. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 19946|19946|2009-03-23 20:27:31|brentswain38|Grown Masts|Some friends have simply cut a spruce pole out of the bush for a mast for a quick and dirty way to get sailing quickly when short of funds. Those who tapered the full length found the top far too springy and bendy, so went for more high tech masts more quickly. Those who only started the taper 70% above the decks often sailed with their grown masts for decades with no complaints. One, after getting rid of his first, tapered full length and too bendy grown mast, went for another grown mast with the taper only starting 70% above the decks. With that mast he spent 19 years cruising the South Pacific and many years after returning to BC is still sailing with the grown spruce mast he stepped in the early 80's Grown masts only work on marconi rigs if the taper only starts 70% above the decks. For a 36 , 6 inch diameter from there to the deck works well. Brent| 19947|19946|2009-03-23 22:15:31|Donal Philby|Re: Grown Masts|-----Original Message----- >From: brentswain38 >Some friends have simply cut a spruce pole out of the bush for a mast for a quick and dirty way to get sailing quickly when short of >funds. Those who tapered the full length found the top far too springy and bendy, so went for more high tech masts more quickly. >Those who only started the taper 70% above the decks often sailed with their grown masts for decades with no complaints. I agree with Brent. We have a grown stick, about 50 foot. Tapered much as Brent suggested. It does taper to about 2 1/2 inches at the mast head. The masthead fitting extends down and partly around the mast. I recently rerigged the mast and changed from a single to a double spreader rig, partly because of the thinness (paranoia) and partly because we have a traditional cutter with the mast near the middle of the boat and the double spreader with runner and intermediates just make more sense to me, though we have never had any reason to doubt the original rig. Someone on another boatbuilding list built a boat similar to ours. He was a cabinet maker by trade, but was ready to get in the water, so got bid and specs on aluminum mast. He did the numbers also on a birdsmouth hollow and a grown stick. It turns out the lightest was the hollow mast, which in the end, he built himself. The grown stick weighted 100 pounds, or about a third, more. But most of that weight is in the butt. With the rigging gang in place ours balances (when lifted by the crane) about three feet below the lower spreader. I know the grown stick is also buoyancy if the boat capsizes, the same argument that Brent makes for the sealed SS mast. A good argument. And there is also the evidence that a heavier mast, in serious storm and waves, actually increases the resistance to capsize. Only when I got to thinking of a tightrope walker carrying a long pole, did I really understand. We pulled the mast once and left the boat at the dock in the water. The yard by the path of sportfishing boat going in and out day and night. I had slept aboard before the pull, but without the mast in the boat it would have been near impossible. At sea, even in 15-20 foot seas, the boat still has gentle motions that allows me wander the decks with little difficulty, something I have never been able to do on fancy raceboats, and especially up on the bow. I attribute much of that motion to the grown stick. donal| 19948|19948|2009-03-25 00:10:48|jhlean|BS 31 or BS 36?|I'm trying to decide between the Brent Swain 31 and 36. I assume both are 'go anywhere' cruisers. And naturally, one is bigger than the other... carries more stuff etc... but that is not that important to me. I have Brent's book on Origami Boats but it does not include layouts of either the 31 or 36. Is there anyway to see the layouts of these boats? Cheers, J Harry Lean.| 19949|19948|2009-03-25 01:30:46|kingsknight4life|Re: BS 31 or BS 36?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhlean" wrote: > >... Is there anyway to see the layouts of these boats? Cheers, J Harry Lean. > Hi As most bots are owner built there is no standard layout. There are some interior pics in the photos section. Most that I've seen are v-berth forward, followed by head to port, opposing settees and then a galley and steering station in the pilothouse. More or less. Rowland PS If anyone has interior pics it sure would be nice to see some more. I know there's some out there or there could be if anyone had 10 mins to spare and a digital camera. :)| 19951|19948|2009-03-25 06:38:56|martin demers|Re: BS 31 or BS 36?|many models have the pilothouse section but I have not seen much pictures of the steering station.anyone? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: w.schonfelder@... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:22:19 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 31 or BS 36? Rowland, I second this! The drawings included in Brents book are rather disappointing. Even if there is no standard layout, some ideas about what is possible would have been nice. Has anybody managed to find a way to put the dinette into the pilot house of the 36 or 40 footer? I also would appreciate it very much if somebody could post some pictures of the details for the trimtab and windvane installation. And lots of interior shots of course! Best Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhlean" wrote: > > > >... Is there anyway to see the layouts of these boats? Cheers, J Harry Lean. > > > Hi > As most bots are owner built there is no standard layout. There are some interior pics in the photos section. Most that I've seen are v-berth forward, followed by head to port, opposing settees and then a galley and steering station in the pilothouse. More or less. > Rowland > > PS > If anyone has interior pics it sure would be nice to see some more. I know there's some out there or there could be if anyone had 10 mins to spare and a digital camera. :) > _________________________________________________________________ Réinventez comment vous restez en contact avec le nouveau Windows Live Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650737 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19952|19946|2009-03-25 09:30:21|martin demers|Re: Grown Masts|would you recomend a kind of tree more than another, is there one to avoid?Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:35:05 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Grown Masts Some friends have simply cut a spruce pole out of the bush for a mast for a quick and dirty way to get sailing quickly when short of funds. Those who tapered the full length found the top far too springy and bendy, so went for more high tech masts more quickly. Those who only started the taper 70% above the decks often sailed with their grown masts for decades with no complaints. One, after getting rid of his first, tapered full length and too bendy grown mast, went for another grown mast with the taper only starting 70% above the decks. With that mast he spent 19 years cruising the South Pacific and many years after returning to BC is still sailing with the grown spruce mast he stepped in the early 80's Grown masts only work on marconi rigs if the taper only starts 70% above the decks. For a 36 , 6 inch diameter from there to the deck works well. Brent _________________________________________________________________ Partagez des photos avec vos amis sur Windows Live Messenger http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650741 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19953|19948|2009-03-25 10:50:40|Gordon Schnell|Re: BS 31 or BS 36?|Hi all. Some ideas for interiors and interior layouts would be useful and would give the "first timer" a "starting place". I've done a number of layouts and revisions for the 40 interior and saved them as .pdf files. I'll attach a an early version, if the site can handle the size. Gord Let me know, if they are of interest. boatwayupnorth wrote: > > Rowland, I second this! The drawings included in Brents book are > rather disappointing. Even if there is no standard layout, some ideas > about what is possible would have been nice. > Has anybody managed to find a way to put the dinette into the pilot > house of the 36 or 40 footer? > I also would appreciate it very much if somebody could post some > pictures of the details for the trimtab and windvane installation. And > lots of interior shots of course! > Best > Walter > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , "jhlean" wrote: > > > > > >... Is there anyway to see the layouts of these boats? Cheers, J > Harry Lean. > > > > > Hi > > As most bots are owner built there is no standard layout. There are > some interior pics in the photos section. Most that I've seen are > v-berth forward, followed by head to port, opposing settees and then a > galley and steering station in the pilothouse. More or less. > > Rowland > > > > PS > > If anyone has interior pics it sure would be nice to see some more. > I know there's some out there or there could be if anyone had 10 mins > to spare and a digital camera. :) > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19954|19948|2009-03-25 11:45:26|Carl Anderson|Re: BS 31 or BS 36?|These are a "do-it-yourself" kind of boat both in the building and the interior layout. You simply do what you feel you need for the kind of cruising that you anticipate. (Our desires are to first head north through the inside passage to Alaska from the San Juan Islands) We have followed this line of thinking in the building of MOM. Th most striking thing about MOM is the large pilothouse. Everything else is pretty much standard stuff blended from Brent's book & plans and our desires as to what we wanted in our boat. Our interior layout has the galley down just aft of the head (with the V berth ahead of that). Opposite the galley is the sea berth. Our dinette is very small & located up in the pilothouse to port with the steering station opposite that. Our pilothouse is very large inside as I needed enough room to do my morning routine of back exercises laying down on something flat & hard. The stern has a quarter berth to starboard with storage to port as well as behind the engine area. Some pictures are located at the web site. More will come as I have time. Carl sv-mom.com > >... Is there anyway to see the layouts of these boats? Cheers, J Harry > Lean. > > > Hi > As most bots are owner built there is no standard layout. There are some > interior pics in the photos section. Most that I've seen are v-berth > forward, followed by head to port, opposing settees and then a galley > and steering station in the pilothouse. More or less. > Rowland > > PS > If anyone has interior pics it sure would be nice to see some more. I > know there's some out there or there could be if anyone had 10 mins to > spare and a digital camera. :) | 19955|19948|2009-03-25 12:05:18|Barney|Largest Brent Boat?|G'day all, Just curious what is the largest Brent boat (or Brent-ish Origami) boat out there? Is there really an upper length threshold where the technique isn't as efficient? Ben, you have a heavy displ boat right? With a low aspect rig too? Do you have any specs or details on your fat bottomed girl? Thanks! Barney On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 07:41 -0700, Gordon Schnell wrote: > Hi all. Some ideas for interiors and interior layouts would be useful > and would give the "first timer" a "starting place". I've done a > number > of layouts and revisions for the 40 interior and saved them as .pdf > files. I'll attach a an early version, if the site can handle the > size. > Gord > Let me know, if they are of interest. > > boatwayupnorth wrote: > > > > Rowland, I second this! The drawings included in Brents book are > > rather disappointing. Even if there is no standard layout, some > ideas > > about what is possible would have been nice. > > Has anybody managed to find a way to put the dinette into the pilot > > house of the 36 or 40 footer? > > I also would appreciate it very much if somebody could post some > > pictures of the details for the trimtab and windvane installation. > And > > lots of interior shots of course! > > Best > > Walter > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > , "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > , "jhlean" wrote: > > > > > > > >... Is there anyway to see the layouts of these boats? Cheers, J > > Harry Lean. > > > > > > > Hi > > > As most bots are owner built there is no standard layout. There > are > > some interior pics in the photos section. Most that I've seen are > > v-berth forward, followed by head to port, opposing settees and then > a > > galley and steering station in the pilothouse. More or less. > > > Rowland > > > > > > PS > > > If anyone has interior pics it sure would be nice to see some > more. > > I know there's some out there or there could be if anyone had 10 > mins > > to spare and a digital camera. :) > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 19956|19948|2009-03-25 12:25:37|Gordon Schnell|Re: BS 31 or BS 36?|I posted a couple of "Interiors" for the 40PH, for those contemplating what you might do with your BS40 interior. Ideas and feedback welcomed, as I am in the interior construction phase, now. File name is:application/pdf 40PHInteriors.pdf 2 interior layouts for the BS 40 PH Gord Carl Anderson wrote: > > These are a "do-it-yourself" kind of boat both in the building and the > interior layout. You simply do what you feel you need for the kind of > cruising that you anticipate. (Our desires are to first head north > through the inside passage to Alaska from the San Juan Islands) > > We have followed this line of thinking in the building of MOM. > > Th most striking thing about MOM is the large pilothouse. Everything > else is pretty much standard stuff blended from Brent's book & plans and > our desires as to what we wanted in our boat. > > Our interior layout has the galley down just aft of the head (with the V > berth ahead of that). Opposite the galley is the sea berth. Our dinette > is very small & located up in the pilothouse to port with the steering > station opposite that. Our pilothouse is very large inside as I needed > enough room to do my morning routine of back exercises laying down on > something flat & hard. The stern has a quarter berth to starboard with > storage to port as well as behind the engine area. > > Some pictures are located at the web site. > More will come as I have time. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > >... Is there anyway to see the layouts of these boats? Cheers, J Harry > > Lean. > > > > > Hi > > As most bots are owner built there is no standard layout. There are > some > > interior pics in the photos section. Most that I've seen are v-berth > > forward, followed by head to port, opposing settees and then a galley > > and steering station in the pilothouse. More or less. > > Rowland > > > > PS > > If anyone has interior pics it sure would be nice to see some more. I > > know there's some out there or there could be if anyone had 10 mins to > > spare and a digital camera. :) > > | 19957|19948|2009-03-25 21:39:43|brentswain38|Re: Largest Brent Boat?|Two 55 footers were built in Port Hardy. One put enough miles on, on the north BC coast to go around the world, then sailed to Xmas Island and back in winter. Both passed Canadian ship inspection for Charter boats. Paul is building a 57 footer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney wrote: > > G'day all, > > Just curious what is the largest Brent boat (or Brent-ish Origami) boat > out there? Is there really an upper length threshold where the technique > isn't as efficient? > > Ben, you have a heavy displ boat right? With a low aspect rig too? Do > you have any specs or details on your fat bottomed girl? > > Thanks! > > Barney > > On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 07:41 -0700, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Hi all. Some ideas for interiors and interior layouts would be useful > > and would give the "first timer" a "starting place". I've done a > > number > > of layouts and revisions for the 40 interior and saved them as .pdf > > files. I'll attach a an early version, if the site can handle the > > size. > > Gord > > Let me know, if they are of interest. > > > > boatwayupnorth wrote: > > > > > > Rowland, I second this! The drawings included in Brents book are > > > rather disappointing. Even if there is no standard layout, some > > ideas > > > about what is possible would have been nice. > > > Has anybody managed to find a way to put the dinette into the pilot > > > house of the 36 or 40 footer? > > > I also would appreciate it very much if somebody could post some > > > pictures of the details for the trimtab and windvane installation. > > And > > > lots of interior shots of course! > > > Best > > > Walter > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > , "kingsknight4life" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > , "jhlean" wrote: > > > > > > > > > >... Is there anyway to see the layouts of these boats? Cheers, J > > > Harry Lean. > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > As most bots are owner built there is no standard layout. There > > are > > > some interior pics in the photos section. Most that I've seen are > > > v-berth forward, followed by head to port, opposing settees and then > > a > > > galley and steering station in the pilothouse. More or less. > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > PS > > > > If anyone has interior pics it sure would be nice to see some > > more. > > > I know there's some out there or there could be if anyone had 10 > > mins > > > to spare and a digital camera. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > | 19958|19948|2009-03-25 21:43:34|brentswain38|Re: BS 31 or BS 36?|Yes it's time I put the layouts in the book. The cost difference between building a 31 and a 36 is not all that great , but a well finished 36 sells for 3 or 4 times the price of a 31. My 31 is definitly all I could afford at the time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhlean" wrote: > > I'm trying to decide between the Brent Swain 31 and 36. I assume both are 'go anywhere' cruisers. And naturally, one is bigger than the other... carries more stuff etc... but that is not that important to me. I have Brent's book on Origami Boats but it does not include layouts of either the 31 or 36. Is there anyway to see the layouts of these boats? Cheers, J Harry Lean. > | 19959|19946|2009-03-25 21:49:12|brentswain38|Re: Grown Masts|Spruce is best by far, fir second best. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > would you recomend a kind of tree more than another, is there one to avoid?Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:35:05 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Grown Masts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some friends have simply cut a spruce pole out of the bush for a mast for a quick and dirty way to get sailing quickly when short of funds. > > Those who tapered the full length found the top far too springy and bendy, so went for more high tech masts more quickly. Those who only started the taper 70% above the decks often sailed with their grown masts for decades with no complaints. One, after getting rid of his first, tapered full length and too bendy grown mast, went for another grown mast with the taper only starting 70% above the decks. With that mast he spent 19 years cruising the South Pacific and many years after returning to BC is still sailing with the grown spruce mast he stepped in the early 80's > > Grown masts only work on marconi rigs if the taper only starts 70% above the decks. For a 36 , 6 inch diameter from there to the deck works well. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Partagez des photos avec vos amis sur Windows Live Messenger > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650741 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 19960|19948|2009-03-25 23:35:36|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Largest Brent Boat?|Paul's Boat is about 65ft.? It grew a bit. :)? His construction photos are here: www.submarineboat.com/pauls_boat.htm Best of Luck Doug J -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 8:39 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Largest Brent Boat? Two 55 footers were built in Port Hardy. One put enough miles on, on the north BC coast to go around the world, then sailed to Xmas Island and back in winter. Both passed Canadian ship inspection for Charter boats. Paul is building a 57 footer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Barney wrote: > > G'day all, > > Just curious what is the largest Brent boat (or Brent-ish Origami) boat > out there? Is there really an upper length threshold where the technique > isn't as efficient? > > Ben, you have a heavy displ boat right? With a low aspect rig too? Do > you have any specs or details on your fat bottomed girl? > > Thanks! > > Barney > > On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 07:41 -0700, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Hi all. Some ideas for interiors and interior layouts would be useful > > and would give the "first timer" a "starting place". I've done a > > number > > of layouts and revisions for the 40 interior and saved them as .pdf > > files. I'll attach a an early version, if the site can handle the > > size. > > Gord > > Let me know, if they are of interest. > > > > boatwayupnorth wrote: > > > > > > Rowland, I second this! The drawings included in Brents book are > > > rather disappointing. Even if there is no standard layout, some > > ideas > > > about what is possible would have been nice. > > > Has anybody managed to find a way to put the dinette into the pilot > > > house of the 36 or 40 footer? > > > I also would appreciate it very much if somebody could post some > > > pictures of the details for the trimtab and windvane installation. > > And > > > lots of interior shots of course! > > > Best > > > Walter > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > , "kingsknight4life" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > , "jhlean" wrote: > > > > > > > > > >... Is there anyway to see the layouts of these boats? Cheers, J > > > Harry Lean. > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > As most bots are owner built there is no standard layout. There > > are > > > some interior pics in the photos section. Most that I've seen are > > > v-berth forward, followed by head to port, opposing settees and then > > a > > > galley and steering station in the pilothouse. More or less. > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > PS > > > > If anyone has interior pics it sure would be nice to see some > > more. > > > I know there's some out there or there could be if anyone had 10 > > mins > > > to spare and a digital camera. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19961|19948|2009-03-26 05:12:33|Patric Albutat|Re: BS 31 or BS 36?|Yves Marie de Tanton did some plans on his interpretation of the Origami boat. His design is called "Imagiro". Interior plans for the Imagiro 315 and the 35 are both in the file section and on his website. It seema as if he based his design on the BS but I've never seen proper plans for these and the sketches in Brent's book leave a lot to be desired. cheers, Patric| 19962|19962|2009-03-26 07:23:12|pepad67|Pictures of steel mast|Hi, I read in Brent's book about steel mast and foud it interesting. But I can't imagine how the finished steel mast will look like, how will the halyard and blocks be instaled/attached to the mast, how will finished masthead lokk like and so on... Can I somewhere see some picturec od finished steel mast ? thanks Pepa| 19963|19963|2009-03-26 09:53:44|Donal Philby|Grown stick transport|Long, long ago and far, far way I was living in San Diego and building a boat. Another boat builder in the area suggested we go up to Coos Bay, Oregon and bring back a couple of sticks. He had an open utility trailer, a big, powerful sedan, and an idea. I helped him weld up a cross bar unit that we bolted across the trailer top. It had a couple of upright posts about a foot tall toward the edges. He had a heavy duty car top rack, too, onto which we welded some uprights. Then we found a scrap trailer tongue and welded (and bolted) that to two twenty foot long galvanized heavy wall water pipers. This was then bolted to the original trailer tongue. We strung extension wiring, added a long chain, and packed our bags. On the way North the extension tongue was unbolted and carried across the racks. We drove up the coast, looked over a couple of yards, talked to the managers, who were somewhat incredulous, but very helpful in selecting out a couple of 50+ foot trees that were pretty straight and close to the final dimensions we needed. We bolted on the extension tongue and the yard dropped the trees aboard the rig. The trailer took most of the weight and the tree tops stuck out a few feet beyond the front of the car. Off we went. It was a bit of a learning curve to drive the rig, especially dealing with the section in front as we would pivot to get into a gas station, for instance, but not too bad. We got stopped once by the Highway Patrol. The officer walked around and around the rig, looked at the drawing my friend had made and sent to the Highway Patrol for approval, and said, well, it seems like this shouldn't be legal, but it is, so drive safely and have a good trip. We did. But it was fun watching all the big, wide eyes of people driving by. donal| 19964|19963|2009-03-26 10:22:53|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Grown stick transport|Great story. Do you have a picture?? --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Donal Philby To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 8:50 am Subject: [origamiboats] Grown stick transport Long, long ago and far, far way I was living in San Diego and building a boat. Another boat builder in the area suggested we go up to Coos Bay, Oregon and bring back a couple of sticks. He had an open utility trailer, a big, powerful sedan, and an idea. I helped him weld up a cross bar unit that we bolted across the trailer top. It had a couple of upright posts about a foot tall toward the edges. He had a heavy duty car top rack, too, onto which we welded some uprights. Then we found a scrap trailer tongue and welded (and bolted) that to two twenty foot long galvanized heavy wall water pipers. This was then bolted to the original trailer tongue. We strung extension wiring, added a long chain, and packed our bags. On the way North the extension tongue was unbolted and carried across the racks. We drove up the coast, looked over a couple of yards, talked to the managers, who were somewhat incredulous, but very helpful in selecting out a couple of 50+ foot trees that were pretty straight and close to the final dimensions we needed. We bolted on the extension tongue and the yard dropped the trees aboard the rig. The trailer took most of the weight and the tree tops stuck out a few feet beyond the front of the car. Off we went. It was a bit of a learning curve to drive the rig, especially dealing with the section in front as we would pivot to get into a gas station, for instance, but not too bad. We got stopped once by the Highway Patrol. The officer walked around and around the rig, looked at the drawing my friend had made and sent to the Highway Patrol for approval, and said, well, it seems like this shouldn't be legal, but it is, so drive safely and have a good trip. We did. But it was fun watching all the big, wide eyes of people driving by. donal [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19965|19946|2009-03-26 14:36:00|mark hamill|Re: Grown Masts|Of the spruce family--black spruce because of its slow rate of growth is supposed to be the best| 19966|19948|2009-03-26 15:06:59|Barney Treadway|Re: Largest Brent Boat?|Thanks!! Junk rigged too! Is this boat in the water yet? Is Paul on this list? Barney djackson99@... wrote: > > > Paul's Boat is about 65ft.? It grew a bit. :)? > His construction photos are here: www.submarineboat.com/pauls_boat.htm > > Best of Luck > Doug J > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 8:39 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Largest Brent Boat? > > Two 55 footers were built in Port Hardy. One put enough miles on, on > the north BC coast to go around the world, then sailed to Xmas Island > and back in winter. Both passed Canadian ship inspection for Charter > boats. Paul is building a 57 footer. > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Barney wrote: > > > > > > G'day all, > > > > > > Just curious what is the largest Brent boat (or Brent-ish Origami) boat > > > out there? Is there really an upper length threshold where the technique > > > isn't as efficient? > > > > > > Ben, you have a heavy displ boat right? With a low aspect rig too? Do > > > you have any specs or details on your fat bottomed girl? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Barney > > > > > > On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 07:41 -0700, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > > > Hi all. Some ideas for interiors and interior layouts would be useful > > > > and would give the "first timer" a "starting place". I've done a > > > > number > > > > of layouts and revisions for the 40 interior and saved them as .pdf > > > > files. I'll attach a an early version, if the site can handle the > > > > size. > > > > Gord > > > > Let me know, if they are of interest. > > > > > > > > boatwayupnorth wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Rowland, I second this! The drawings included in Brents book are > > > > > rather disappointing. Even if there is no standard layout, some > > > > ideas > > > > > about what is possible would have been nice. > > > > > Has anybody managed to find a way to put the dinette into the pilot > > > > > house of the 36 or 40 footer? > > > > > I also would appreciate it very much if somebody could post some > > > > > pictures of the details for the trimtab and windvane installation. > > > > And > > > > > lots of interior shots of course! > > > > > Best > > > > > Walter > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > , "kingsknight4life" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > , "jhlean" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >... Is there anyway to see the layouts of these boats? Cheers, J > > > > > Harry Lean. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > As most bots are owner built there is no standard layout. There > > > > are > > > > > some interior pics in the photos section. Most that I've seen are > > > > > v-berth forward, followed by head to port, opposing settees and then > > > > a > > > > > galley and steering station in the pilothouse. More or less. > > > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > > > PS > > > > > > If anyone has interior pics it sure would be nice to see some > > > > more. > > > > > I know there's some out there or there could be if anyone had 10 > > > > mins > > > > > to spare and a digital camera. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19967|22|2009-03-26 19:49:12|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./239GAPL-NOV17-08.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : One Accommodation Plan for the Imagiro 385 You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./239GAPL-NOV17-08.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 19968|19948|2009-03-27 09:02:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: Largest Brent Boat?|On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 09:59:30AM -0600, Barney wrote: > > Ben, you have a heavy displ boat right? With a low aspect rig too? Do > you have any specs or details on your fat bottomed girl? Lots. What kind would you like? I'd hate to type up several thousand lines of detailed data only to find out that you meant "LOA, beam, and draft." :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19969|19963|2009-03-27 16:13:46|brentswain38|Re: Grown stick transport|For mine I lashed the trailer hitch to the end of the mast , then lashed the mast into a tiny boat trailer. Then I had my brother, who was a fireman and knew all the back roads , to do the driving. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Donal Philby wrote: > > Long, long ago and far, far way I was living in San Diego and building a boat. Another boat builder in the area suggested we go up to Coos Bay, Oregon and bring back a couple of sticks. He had an open utility trailer, a big, powerful sedan, and an idea. I helped him weld up a cross bar unit that we bolted across the trailer top. It had a couple of upright posts about a foot tall toward the edges. He had a heavy duty car top rack, too, onto which we welded some uprights. Then we found a scrap trailer tongue and welded (and bolted) that to two twenty foot long galvanized heavy wall water pipers. This was then bolted to the original trailer tongue. We strung extension wiring, added a long chain, and packed our bags. On the way North the extension tongue was unbolted and carried across the racks. We drove up the coast, looked over a couple of yards, talked to the managers, who were somewhat incredulous, but very helpful in selecting out a couple of 50+ foot trees that were pretty straight and close to the final dimensions we needed. We bolted on the extension tongue and the yard dropped the trees aboard the rig. The trailer took most of the weight and the tree tops stuck out a few feet beyond the front of the car. Off we went. It was a bit of a learning curve to drive the rig, especially dealing with the section in front as we would pivot to get into a gas station, for instance, but not too bad. We got stopped once by the Highway Patrol. The officer walked around and around the rig, looked at the drawing my friend had made and sent to the Highway Patrol for approval, and said, well, it seems like this shouldn't be legal, but it is, so drive safely and have a good trip. We did. But it was fun watching all the big, wide eyes of people driving by. > > donal > | 19970|19970|2009-03-27 16:19:29|brentswain38|Manual starter|My Isuzu starter became stickier and stickier , refusing to engage properly. This caused the gear to wear , making it even more reluctant to engage. I spent a lot of time whacking the back of the starter trying to get it to engage. Then I changed the starter and welded a pipe on the back of it with an ss bolt in the middle of it. Now I can take a stick, push on the bolt and force it to engage any time, eliminating total reliance on the solenoid, a huge improvement in reliability. Brent| 19971|19970|2009-03-27 16:39:19|Gary Prebble|Re: Manual starter|...which reminds me...many times when I try to start my yanmar I just get a click when I push the ignition button. However, when I "short" the solenoid with a screw driver the engine will turn over and start. Does this sound like the solenoid is toast? Sometimes the key will turn over the engine but not always. Brent, do you know anyplace in Nanaimo to get a solenoid if this is the problem... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > My Isuzu starter became stickier and stickier , refusing to engage properly. This caused the gear to wear , making it even more reluctant to engage. I spent a lot of time whacking the back of the starter trying to get it to engage. Then I changed the starter and welded a pipe on the back of it with an ss bolt in the middle of it. Now I can take a stick, push on the bolt and force it to engage any time, eliminating total reliance on the solenoid, a huge improvement in reliability. > Brent > | 19972|19970|2009-03-27 17:35:00|David Frantz|Re: Manual starter|While not exactly a boating experience I can point out that the quality of your electrical connections are paramount. Often starter problems on automobiles are just poor electrical connections. This I learned one year after spending half a winter crawling under my F 150 to wiggle the solenoid cable. Electrical issues are where I'd look first! David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 27, 2009, at 4:39 PM, Gary Prebble wrote: > ...which reminds me...many times when I try to start my yanmar I > just get a click when I push the ignition button. However, when I > "short" the solenoid with a screw driver the engine will turn over > and start. Does this sound like the solenoid is toast? Sometimes > the key will turn over the engine but not always. > > Brent, do you know anyplace in Nanaimo to get a solenoid if this is > the problem... > > Gary > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> My Isuzu starter became stickier and stickier , refusing to engage >> properly. This caused the gear to wear , making it even more >> reluctant to engage. I spent a lot of time whacking the back of >> the starter trying to get it to engage. Then I changed the starter >> and welded a pipe on the back of it with an ss bolt in the middle >> of it. Now I can take a stick, push on the bolt and force it to >> engage any time, eliminating total reliance on the solenoid, a huge >> improvement in reliability. >> Brent >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 19973|19970|2009-03-27 19:50:22|brentswain38|Re: Manual starter|Solar electric on Front street is an excellent source. Making the manual option makes one far less dependent on the solenoid or good contacts. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > ...which reminds me...many times when I try to start my yanmar I just get a click when I push the ignition button. However, when I "short" the solenoid with a screw driver the engine will turn over and start. Does this sound like the solenoid is toast? Sometimes the key will turn over the engine but not always. > > Brent, do you know anyplace in Nanaimo to get a solenoid if this is the problem... > > Gary > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > My Isuzu starter became stickier and stickier , refusing to engage properly. This caused the gear to wear , making it even more reluctant to engage. I spent a lot of time whacking the back of the starter trying to get it to engage. Then I changed the starter and welded a pipe on the back of it with an ss bolt in the middle of it. Now I can take a stick, push on the bolt and force it to engage any time, eliminating total reliance on the solenoid, a huge improvement in reliability. > > Brent > > > | 19974|19970|2009-03-27 20:00:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: Manual starter|On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 05:34:17PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > While not exactly a boating experience I can point out that the > quality of your electrical connections are paramount. Often starter > problems on automobiles are just poor electrical connections. This I > learned one year after spending half a winter crawling under my F 150 > to wiggle the solenoid cable. Electrical issues are where I'd look > first! That's not where I'd start looking - unless you mean "electrical issues inside the starter". When Gary shorts those solenoid terminals, he's drawing anywhere from 50-300 amps, depending on the engine size and type. A bad connection would prevent the starter from cranking at that point - and Gary says it spins just fine. It's still possible that there's a poor connection to the coil, but that's easy to test: just jumper the positive starter lead to the coil (the small terminal.) If it cranks, then either the key switch or the wiring from the key switch is bad (rare, in my experience.) Most often, the starter won't crank - which means that the problem is in the starter solenoid [1]. If you're lucky, you can take yours apart and clean the contactor (usually burned and carbonized to hell). If you can't, then you just buy a new one. I tend to try rebuilding when I can; many times, you can just drill out the two rivets and replace them with screws, which is a big win all around, since it makes your solenoid a serviceable (instead of a disposable) part. [1] When I'm diagnosing problems, I usually look for the most stressed or vulnerable-to-abuse component in the system; most of the time, that's where the problem will be. The contactor in the solenoid fits that definition: it's a switch that's supposed to be "instant-on", which is a hard enough job, but it's also supposed to carry several hundred amps. Trust an electrical engineer on this one: there's *NO* good way to do that. It's all brute force and hoping for luck. It's a wonder the damn things live as long as they do. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19975|19948|2009-03-28 00:45:01|Barney|Largest Brent Boat?|I guess displacement, layout, and rig overview if you don't mind. I'd hate to impose on your generosity until some basics are understood - then I'll impose like crazy. B On Fri, 2009-03-27 at 08:58 -0400, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 09:59:30AM -0600, Barney wrote: > > > > Ben, you have a heavy displ boat right? With a low aspect rig too? > Do > > you have any specs or details on your fat bottomed girl? > > Lots. What kind would you like? I'd hate to type up several thousand > lines of detailed data only to find out that you meant "LOA, beam, and > draft." :) > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > | 19976|19970|2009-03-28 19:24:14|brentswain38|Re: Manual starter|Besides eliminating total dependece on the solenoid, another advantage of the manual start, is when you are trying to start with a low battery the solenoid is not drawing any of the battery's scarce power. It all goes to the starter motor. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 05:34:17PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > While not exactly a boating experience I can point out that the > > quality of your electrical connections are paramount. Often starter > > problems on automobiles are just poor electrical connections. This I > > learned one year after spending half a winter crawling under my F 150 > > to wiggle the solenoid cable. Electrical issues are where I'd look > > first! > > That's not where I'd start looking - unless you mean "electrical issues > inside the starter". When Gary shorts those solenoid terminals, he's > drawing anywhere from 50-300 amps, depending on the engine size and > type. A bad connection would prevent the starter from cranking at that > point - and Gary says it spins just fine. > > It's still possible that there's a poor connection to the coil, but > that's easy to test: just jumper the positive starter lead to the coil > (the small terminal.) If it cranks, then either the key switch or the > wiring from the key switch is bad (rare, in my experience.) Most often, > the starter won't crank - which means that the problem is in the starter > solenoid [1]. If you're lucky, you can take yours apart and clean the > contactor (usually burned and carbonized to hell). If you can't, then > you just buy a new one. I tend to try rebuilding when I can; many times, > you can just drill out the two rivets and replace them with screws, > which is a big win all around, since it makes your solenoid a > serviceable (instead of a disposable) part. > > > [1] When I'm diagnosing problems, I usually look for the most stressed > or vulnerable-to-abuse component in the system; most of the time, that's > where the problem will be. The contactor in the solenoid fits that > definition: it's a switch that's supposed to be "instant-on", which is a > hard enough job, but it's also supposed to carry several hundred amps. > Trust an electrical engineer on this one: there's *NO* good way to do > that. It's all brute force and hoping for luck. It's a wonder the damn > things live as long as they do. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19977|19970|2009-03-29 10:44:17|Denis Buggy|Re: Manual starter|RE STARTER PROBLEMS the solenoid coil on many starters is voltage sensitive , and if you allow your voltage to drop to 11 or 22 volts before cranking your coil will heat up and your solenoid will not pull the bendix into the flywheel forever . it is a easy matter to mount a push button switch near the engine close to a manual pull cable to shut off the engine before working on it this will test your wiring theory however in practice if the existing solenoid wire is getting a signal your problems will lay else where . it is very important to have at least two earth straps from starter to boat steel as I have seen throttle cables and other engine conne ctions melt while trying to provide an earth to chassis from the engine as this area is frequently forgotten . you can get a serious burn/ start a fire and explode the battery if the screw driver shorts on the starter and then welds itself to the hot connections when you allow it to slip a half inch past the solenoid connexion to earth on the starter body you need a cool head to face down the sparks and hit the dummies screwdriver with a hammer to break the weld before the fire starts . damage to ring gear can be repaired by loosing the Phillips screws and rotating the ring gear on the flywheel 180 degrees and re tighten with locktite . most engines will stop in the same place most of the time and this concentrates wear on one spot , if your ring gear is an interference fit it will be removed by heating with gas all over with care , this job is best left to somebody who has done this before . your bendix can be re profiled by yourself and will work again happily if you remember to grease the sliding shaft and usually you need to sandpaper the contacts as the solenoid coil also doubles as a contactor for the heavy current and these contacts spark a great deal in their lives and need to be reprofiled to face each other at the correct flat to flat height . you can often source a good starter from a scrapyard this is the best plan and a spare fuel pump and alt and starter would be minimum offshore spares . regards denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 12:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Manual starter Besides eliminating total dependece on the solenoid, another advantage of the manual start, is when you are trying to start with a low battery the solenoid is not drawing any of the battery's scarce power. It all goes to the starter motor. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 05:34:17PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > While not exactly a boating experience I can point out that the > > quality of your electrical connections are paramount. Often starter > > problems on automobiles are just poor electrical connections. This I > > learned one year after spending half a winter crawling under my F 150 > > to wiggle the solenoid cable. Electrical issues are where I'd look > > first! > > That's not where I'd start looking - unless you mean "electrical issues > inside the starter". When Gary shorts those solenoid terminals, he's > drawing anywhere from 50-300 amps, depending on the engine size and > type. A bad connection would prevent the starter from cranking at that > point - and Gary says it spins just fine. > > It's still possible that there's a poor connection to the coil, but > that's easy to test: just jumper the positive starter lead to the coil > (the small terminal.) If it cranks, then either the key switch or the > wiring from the key switch is bad (rare, in my experience.) Most often, > the starter won't crank - which means that the problem is in the starter > solenoid [1]. If you're lucky, you can take yours apart and clean the > contactor (usually burned and carbonized to hell). If you can't, then > you just buy a new one. I tend to try rebuilding when I can; many times, > you can just drill out the two rivets and replace them with screws, > which is a big win all around, since it makes your solenoid a > serviceable (instead of a disposable) part. > > > [1] When I'm diagnosing problems, I usually look for the most stressed > or vulnerable-to-abuse component in the system; most of the time, that's > where the problem will be. The contactor in the solenoid fits that > definition: it's a switch that's supposed to be "instant-on", which is a > hard enough job, but it's also supposed to carry several hundred amps. > Trust an electrical engineer on this one: there's *NO* good way to do > that. It's all brute force and hoping for luck. It's a wonder the damn > things live as long as they do. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 19978|19970|2009-03-29 14:18:41|edward_stoneuk|Re: Manual starter|Here is a way of starting an engine without a battery. One needs a special engine though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAu-LYm9MtE&feature=related The are some wonderful related videos, especially if you have sound. Regards, Ted| 19979|19970|2009-03-29 16:59:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: Manual starter|On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 06:18:39PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Here is a way of starting an engine without a battery. One needs a > special engine though. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAu-LYm9MtE&feature=related Wow. That looked like the procedure for starting up the engines on QE2... maybe more complicated than that. Here's something a little simpler, and perhaps even suitable for people who want minimum complexity: Spring starter (supposed to be relatively low-cost and minimal maintenance): http://strongstarter.com/Light.html There are also pneumatic and hydraulic starters, with various pluses and minuses for each. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19980|19980|2009-03-29 20:50:52|hoss_manes|hello again|looking for a project boat, any around? 36 ft plus| 19981|19970|2009-03-29 22:10:34|Alan H. Boucher|Re: Manual starter|Then there is the story about the ocean racer that wrapped his mainsheet around the flywheel and jibed- several times. Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 06:18:39PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Here is a way of starting an engine without a battery. One needs a > > special engine though. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAu-LYm9MtE&feature=related > > > Wow. That looked like the procedure for starting up the engines on > QE2... maybe more complicated than that. Here's something a little > simpler, and perhaps even suitable for people who want minimum > complexity: > > Spring starter (supposed to be relatively low-cost and minimal > maintenance): > http://strongstarter.com/Light.html > > There are also pneumatic and hydraulic starters, with various pluses and > minuses for each. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19982|19970|2009-03-30 00:51:52|Paul Wilson|Re: Manual starter|I am missing something here regarding the solenoids. I think we may be over complicating things. A starter on a boat is one of the least of my worries. Starters and solenoids are extremely reliable. How often do they fail on a car and how many cycles do they do before failing? This is even though they are constantly doused by water when driving in the rain. I have had a starter solenoid fail once in 14 years and 2700 hours and it was my own fault for not looking at it often enough. I had a drip of water on it that I hadn't noticed. It didn't fail suddenly and was giving me warning since it intermittently sticking. I was lazy, taking it for granted, and should have looked at it sooner. The solenoid only took a couple of hours to fix and the starter motor itself needed rebuilding anyway after all those years. A little grease goes a long way for most starter repairs and you don't need any fancy tools. Most bearings and brushes are commonly obtained and cheap and easy to carry as spares. In an emergency, if you don't have spares, bearings can be cleaned and re-lubed. A bearing puller is cheap and should always be on board. The bendix itself will last for years and years if you keep the water out of it. Most starters or solenoids can be fixed anywhere in the world by any automotive place if you can't do it yourself and it will cost relatively little. If you are really worried about it and have the room, get a spare or used one. It won't break the bank if you can get an automotive equivalent. Most failures are due to corrosion so I feel they should be taken apart and greased once in awhile whether they fail or not. When you check it out the first time, buy spare bearings and brushes. Write all the part numbers down, and see if you can get a new bendix as a spare. You may be surprised how cheap the parts are from a starter rebuild outfit on Ebay. A lot of companies are selling parts now. When you have it apart use lots of good quality grease on the gears. If you are really keen, spray electrical insulating varnish on the windings and it should be better than new. If your batteries are down to 11 or 12 volts, they are basically discharged to nothing so you have really screwed up, in my opinion. Totally discharging expensive batteries is a great way to ruin them and never happens without lots of warning in a properly installed electrical system. If batteries are ever flattened so low, a spare battery and a couple of jumper cables is a simple system that will get you going. You don't need any switches or permanent wiring. Ideally, I prefer two electrical systems totally independent from each other with two alternators if possible. Discharging one system won't affect the other and you don't have any complicated interlocks, diodes or switches which can fail. The starter battery can be small and cheap (standard car battery), with a small alternator (20A) since it has very little load and only used for starting. If your alternator ever fails, you have another one you can use in an emergency. In my experience, alternators and voltage regulators fail much more often than starters. Having a motor that starts in an instant with only the turn of a key is a great thing in my opinion. Dragging anchor late at night, the quicker I can get the engine started, the better. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19983|19970|2009-03-30 01:05:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Manual starter|On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 05:51:48PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I am missing something here regarding the solenoids. I think we may be over > complicating things. A starter on a boat is one of the least of my worries. > Starters and solenoids are extremely reliable. How often do they fail on a > car and how many cycles do they do before failing? Let me put it this way: the number of starter solenoids that I've replaced on boats alone is far greater than the number of cars I've owned (not that it's a fair comparison - I was fixing boat engines for a living at one point.) As to cars, out of all the used cars I've owned, I only remember one that _didn't_ end up needing a starter or a solenoid replacement (a Subaru station wagon.) Every single American-made car that I bought used - and there was a number of them, since I used to race way back when - needed one either immediately or after a short interval. I got to be quite expert with rolling under cars and whacking the starter with a hammer to get it going "just one more time." I've also taken apart my share of solenoids, and have seen how badly damaged they get in normal operation... the only other bits that get that much wear on a car are the brake pads - except they're designed to do that. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19984|19970|2009-03-30 06:24:14|T & D Cain|Re: Manual starter|Paul Wilson is on the right track. There is a basic premise which relates to generating capacity and the size of units contributing to the load. If you have a single source (alternator), then you're up the creek without the proverbial. If you have two alternators which are capable of dealing with 60% of the known maximum load, you can survive. This last line means it is better in a boat to use two 60A alternators (separate vee-belts), than one 100A unit. There are many other scenarios when there is battery bank capacity A and solar panel B and hours of sunlight C etc. etc. Prop generators and wind generators and fuel cells, and tidal or wave-drive oscillatory energy sources, simply add to the confusion. It boils down to having an installed generation capacity arrangement on your propulsion engine which has redundant capacity sufficient to manage with minimum penalty. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Monday, 30 March 2009 14:22 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Manual starter Ideally, I prefer two electrical systems totally independent from each other with two alternators if possible. Discharging one system won't affect the other and you don't have any complicated interlocks, diodes or switches which can fail. The starter battery can be small and cheap (standard car battery), with a small alternator (20A) since it has very little load and only used for starting. If your alternator ever fails, you have another one you can use in an emergency. In my experience, alternators and voltage regulators fail much more often than starters. Having a motor that starts in an instant with only the turn of a key is a great thing in my opinion. Dragging anchor late at night, the quicker I can get the engine started, the better. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Messages in this topic (11) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19985|19970|2009-03-30 13:34:20|Gary Prebble|Re: Manual starter|Regarding making good connections does it help to smear vaseline on battery terminals and connecting wires to ends of solenoid, alternater etc ..\ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > While not exactly a boating experience I can point out that the > quality of your electrical connections are paramount. Often starter > problems on automobiles are just poor electrical connections. This I > learned one year after spending half a winter crawling under my F 150 > to wiggle the solenoid cable. Electrical issues are where I'd look > first! > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Mar 27, 2009, at 4:39 PM, Gary Prebble wrote: > > > ...which reminds me...many times when I try to start my yanmar I > > just get a click when I push the ignition button. However, when I > > "short" the solenoid with a screw driver the engine will turn over > > and start. Does this sound like the solenoid is toast? Sometimes > > the key will turn over the engine but not always. > > > > Brent, do you know anyplace in Nanaimo to get a solenoid if this is > > the problem... > > > > Gary > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > >> > >> My Isuzu starter became stickier and stickier , refusing to engage > >> properly. This caused the gear to wear , making it even more > >> reluctant to engage. I spent a lot of time whacking the back of > >> the starter trying to get it to engage. Then I changed the starter > >> and welded a pipe on the back of it with an ss bolt in the middle > >> of it. Now I can take a stick, push on the bolt and force it to > >> engage any time, eliminating total reliance on the solenoid, a huge > >> improvement in reliability. > >> Brent > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 19986|19980|2009-03-30 15:14:13|kingsknight4life|Re: hello again|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hoss_manes" wrote: > > looking for a project boat, any around? > 36 ft plus > There's a Roberts hull that's been "Brentified" on the Vancouver Craigslist Rowland| 19987|19970|2009-03-30 15:36:23|David Frantz|Re: Manual starter|That is a good question and honestly I've never tried it. I would tend to think it would have little long term value, but that is a guess on my part. For electrical connections you can by protective compounds in your local auto parts store. This is the route I'd take as the material is specifically designed to seal electrical connections on all the different plugs and sockets found there. Note these compounds are only really useful on otherwise sound mechanical connections. They do nothing for loose worn out sockets. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:32 PM, Gary Prebble wrote: > Regarding making good connections does it help to smear vaseline on > battery terminals and connecting wires to ends of solenoid, > alternater etc ..\ > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > wrote: >> >> While not exactly a boating experience I can point out that the >> quality of your electrical connections are paramount. Often starter >> problems on automobiles are just poor electrical connections. >> This I >> learned one year after spending half a winter crawling under my F 150 >> to wiggle the solenoid cable. Electrical issues are where I'd look >> first! >> >> >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Mar 27, 2009, at 4:39 PM, Gary Prebble wrote: >> >>> ...which reminds me...many times when I try to start my yanmar I >>> just get a click when I push the ignition button. However, when I >>> "short" the solenoid with a screw driver the engine will turn over >>> and start. Does this sound like the solenoid is toast? Sometimes >>> the key will turn over the engine but not always. >>> >>> Brent, do you know anyplace in Nanaimo to get a solenoid if this is >>> the problem... >>> >>> Gary >>> >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> My Isuzu starter became stickier and stickier , refusing to engage >>>> properly. This caused the gear to wear , making it even more >>>> reluctant to engage. I spent a lot of time whacking the back of >>>> the starter trying to get it to engage. Then I changed the starter >>>> and welded a pipe on the back of it with an ss bolt in the middle >>>> of it. Now I can take a stick, push on the bolt and force it to >>>> engage any time, eliminating total reliance on the solenoid, a huge >>>> improvement in reliability. >>>> Brent >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>> unsubscribe@... >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 19988|19970|2009-03-30 16:03:31|brentswain38|Re: Manual starter|Relying totally on an electromagnet to pull the contacts together to make contact between a battery and a starter motor is complicating things. Installing a simple push button to make the contact manually is drastically simplifying things. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 05:51:48PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I am missing something here regarding the solenoids. I think we may be over > > complicating things. A starter on a boat is one of the least of my worries. > > Starters and solenoids are extremely reliable. How often do they fail on a > > car and how many cycles do they do before failing? > > Let me put it this way: the number of starter solenoids that I've > replaced on boats alone is far greater than the number of cars I've > owned (not that it's a fair comparison - I was fixing boat engines for a > living at one point.) As to cars, out of all the used cars I've owned, I > only remember one that _didn't_ end up needing a starter or a solenoid > replacement (a Subaru station wagon.) Every single American-made car > that I bought used - and there was a number of them, since I used to > race way back when - needed one either immediately or after a short > interval. I got to be quite expert with rolling under cars and whacking > the starter with a hammer to get it going "just one more time." > > I've also taken apart my share of solenoids, and have seen how badly > damaged they get in normal operation... the only other bits that get > that much wear on a car are the brake pads - except they're designed to > do that. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 19989|19980|2009-03-30 16:10:40|brentswain38|Re: hello again|Years ago a guy phoned me up and asked where he could get a bare hull. I told him to buy a load of steel, and in less than three weeks we could have a hull, decks cabin , wheelhouse cockpit , keel and skeg in far less time and trouble than it would take him to find a hull, negotiate it's purchase and move it. He bought a load of steel and less than three weeks later he had what he wanted. The boat is now in New Guinea. He started with new wheelabraded material, and knew exactly what he had. Where are you? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hoss_manes" wrote: > > looking for a project boat, any around? > 36 ft plus > | 19990|19970|2009-03-30 16:13:35|Paul Wilson|Re: Manual starter|The stuff made for the job is silicone dielectric grease. I have always used DC4 from Dow Corning since it is what is used on aircraft. There are also some other brands that may not be silicone based that may also work well but I don't know the brands. I just used the DC 4 since it is what we used on aircraft. I know some people use regular grease or Vaseline but since they are petroleum based, they may attack some plastics or rubbers. Copper anti-seize works well on battery connections. Gary, it sounds like you may have a bad ignition switch or connection to the switch. Maybe bad contacts in the switch. Just a guess. Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Prebble Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:33 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Manual starter Regarding making good connections does it help to smear vaseline on battery terminals and connecting wires to ends of solenoid, alternater etc ..\ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , David Frantz wrote: > > While not exactly a boating experience I can point out that the > quality of your electrical connections are paramount. Often starter > problems on automobiles are just poor electrical connections. This I > learned one year after spending half a winter crawling under my F 150 > to wiggle the solenoid cable. Electrical issues are where I'd look > first! > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Mar 27, 2009, at 4:39 PM, Gary Prebble wrote: > > > ...which reminds me...many times when I try to start my yanmar I > > just get a click when I push the ignition button. However, when I > > "short" the solenoid with a screw driver the engine will turn over > > and start. Does this sound like the solenoid is toast? Sometimes > > the key will turn over the engine but not always. > > > > Brent, do you know anyplace in Nanaimo to get a solenoid if this is > > the problem... > > > > Gary > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > >> > >> My Isuzu starter became stickier and stickier , refusing to engage > >> properly. This caused the gear to wear , making it even more > >> reluctant to engage. I spent a lot of time whacking the back of > >> the starter trying to get it to engage. Then I changed the starter > >> and welded a pipe on the back of it with an ss bolt in the middle > >> of it. Now I can take a stick, push on the bolt and force it to > >> engage any time, eliminating total reliance on the solenoid, a huge > >> improvement in reliability. > >> Brent > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19991|19991|2009-03-30 16:42:53|Aaron|Head and shower system|To All Does anyone have any advice on how they have installed an interior shower. I am a long way from doing so but seams like a good time to ask. For me up north its almost always to cold for an outdoor shower. Aaron in Alaska| 19992|19970|2009-03-30 16:46:01|Paul Wilson|Re: Manual starter|Ben, I can't argue with your experience. I have always driven junk heaps and only changed a few. In all cases I can think of, the cars would have been in excess of 15 years old. My wife's car is on its original starter and its 1990. My van is 1988 and on its original too. If either one failed today, that's pretty good service. Cheers, Paul Let me put it this way: the number of starter solenoids that I've replaced on boats alone is far greater than the number of cars I've owned (not that it's a fair comparison - I was fixing boat engines for a living at one point.) As to cars, out of all the used cars I've owned, I only remember one that _didn't_ end up needing a starter or a solenoid replacement (a Subaru station wagon.) Every single American-made car that I bought used - and there was a number of them, since I used to race way back when - needed one either immediately or after a short interval. I got to be quite expert with rolling under cars and whacking the starter with a hammer to get it going "just one more time." I've also taken apart my share of solenoids, and have seen how badly damaged they get in normal operation... the only other bits that get that much wear on a car are the brake pads - except they're designed to do that. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19993|19970|2009-03-30 16:58:54|Ben Okopnik|Re: Manual starter|On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 09:43:47AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > Ben, > > I can't argue with your experience. I have always driven junk heaps and > only changed a few. In all cases I can think of, the cars would have been > in excess of 15 years old. My wife's car is on its original starter and > its 1990. My van is 1988 and on its original too. If either one failed > today, that's pretty good service. True enough - but then, car parts get to benefit from huge economies of scale and market share: when you have ten million cars out in the field, you have ten million (or more) testers giving you back information on your systems. Boat builders don't have that kind of feedback loop. What I was racing was all pre-1970 Chevy muscle cars - mostly Camaros with the occasional Nova SS thrown in - and that was around 1985, so 15-20 years old is about right. On the other hand, I've had to rebuild the Mitsubishi starter once and rebuild, then finally replace its solenoid twice in the past six years. It's never been wet, so that's not too great of a record. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 19994|19980|2009-03-30 18:04:09|kingsknight4life|Re: Hey Brent!|Tomorrow, March 31 the thieiving POS that stole our hull finally will have to show his face in the Duncan courthouse to stand trial. Rowland| 19995|19980|2009-03-30 18:06:18|bottomgun|Re: Hey Brent!|Rowland, Good luck and I hope they rape him after taking every penny he has. R/Jay Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas Save the whales - collect the whole set. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kingsknight4life Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hey Brent! Tomorrow, March 31 the thieiving POS that stole our hull finally will have to show his face in the Duncan courthouse to stand trial. Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 19996|19980|2009-03-30 18:09:13|kingsknight4life|Re: Hey Brent!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bottomgun" wrote: > > Rowland, > > Good luck and I hope they rape him after taking every penny he has. > > R/Jay > > > > Respectfully, > > Jay K. Jeffries > > Andros Is., Bahamas > > > > Save the whales - collect the whole set. > >I doubt he has ANY pennys but thanks for the support. Rowland| 19997|19991|2009-03-30 18:17:13|Gary Prebble|Re: Head and shower system|The floor of my head is waterproof - epoxy and paint. I hang a cheap garden pressure sprayer on a hook in the head...heat some water in your kettle, pour into the sprayer, add cold water to comfort and then enjoy. The water sponges up easily on the floor, no need for a drain. You are showered and your head walls and floor are cleaned. ...Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > To All > > Does anyone have any advice on how they have installed an interior shower. I am a long way from doing so but seams like a good time to ask. > For me up north its almost always to cold for an outdoor shower. > > Aaron in Alaska > | 19998|19980|2009-03-30 18:22:49|brentswain38|Re: Hey Brent!|Did you also put a lien on Can Am scrapyards assets and bank account and that belonging to Dan's Pre cast? An out of court settlement on that account could finish your boat and leave enough left over for cruising. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Tomorrow, March 31 the thieiving POS that stole our hull finally will have to show his face in the Duncan courthouse to stand trial. > Rowland > | 19999|19991|2009-03-30 18:25:13|brentswain38|Re: Head and shower system|Letting it drain into the bilge keeps the bilge clean. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > The floor of my head is waterproof - epoxy and paint. I hang a cheap garden pressure sprayer on a hook in the head...heat some water in your kettle, pour into the sprayer, add cold water to comfort and then enjoy. The water sponges up easily on the floor, no need for a drain. You are showered and your head walls and floor are cleaned. > ...Gary > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > > To All > > > > Does anyone have any advice on how they have installed an interior shower. I am a long way from doing so but seams like a good time to ask. > > For me up north its almost always to cold for an outdoor shower. > > > > Aaron in Alaska > > > | 20000|19980|2009-03-30 18:27:24|brentswain38|Re: Hey Brent!|Go after the guys who have the cash and assets. They are the sitting ducks in this case. You won't get much more that satisfaction out of a druggie. That won't pay the bills, or get you out cruising any sooner. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Did you also put a lien on Can Am scrapyards assets and bank account and that belonging to Dan's Pre cast? An out of court settlement on that account could finish your boat and leave enough left over for cruising. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > Tomorrow, March 31 the thieiving POS that stole our hull finally will have to show his face in the Duncan courthouse to stand trial. > > Rowland > > > |