20001|19980|2009-03-30 18:35:41|kingsknight4life|Re: Hey Brent!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Go after the guys who have the cash and assets. They are the sitting ducks in this case. You won't get much more that satisfaction out of a druggie. That won't pay the bills, or get you out cruising any sooner. > Brent Brent I've talked to a couple of lawyers. Rowland| 20002|19980|2009-03-30 19:12:48|John Langelo|Re: Hey Brent!|What's a good time to show up in court as a spectator. I want to see what this parasite looks like. I also live in Duncan. If this person has any friends for moral support, I want to see who they are also.   John --- On Mon, 3/30/09, kingsknight4life wrote: From: kingsknight4life Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hey Brent! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, March 30, 2009, 3:34 PM --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Go after the guys who have the cash and assets. They are the sitting ducks in this case. You won't get much more that satisfaction out of a druggie. That won't pay the bills, or get you out cruising any sooner. > Brent Brent I've talked to a couple of lawyers. Rowland __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20003|20003|2009-03-31 00:21:59|Thomas Martin|(no subject)|I have one just over 38', but I am going to be sailing here away this summer. I can't say anything else, as she is not metal. But she has been around a bit. Tom on s/v Isle of Avalon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20004|4193|2009-03-31 02:41:48|theboilerflue|skeg cooling|So for the cooling system with the skeg cooler, does one need an over flow tank with some sort of pressure valve on it to maintain a closed system like on a car or can i just get away with not filling the skeg up all the way to take up the expansion of the coolent?| 20005|19991|2009-03-31 03:27:10|polaris041|Re: Head and shower system|Hi Brent; From my understanding the act of showering is to clean the body. In doing this the shower water becomes contaminated with ,body fats/acids/dead skin/urine/fecal matter/pathogens and other toxins/waste matter expelled from the body. How one can imagine that such a brew "keeps the bilge clean" is something I would like to understand. regards pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Letting it drain into the bilge keeps the bilge clean. > Brent | 20006|19980|2009-03-31 05:48:19|theboilerflue|Roberts hull|That's the one. It was for sale November last year I thought about getting it but decided against the idea. I believe it was in Delta or Richmond before, someone must have moved it to gibsons which must have cost a pretty penny although it now a couple thousand cheaper. The photos of it in the tarp/shed are still the original ones from before which makes me think it's still the same owner? Maybe I'm remembering wrong but i thought it had ballast and engine before - was selling for around seven thousand, anyone remember? Alex was the one who pointed it out to me, must have been mentioned before on the this group. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hoss_manes" wrote: > > > > looking for a project boat, any around? > > 36 ft plus > > > There's a Roberts hull that's been "Brentified" on the Vancouver Craigslist > Rowland > | 20007|16151|2009-03-31 05:55:07|theboilerflue|Re: 35' Steel Boat For Sale|Yes there we are this one --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Wandling" wrote: > > Some of you may recall when I started my project to convert a Bruce > Roberts 345 to a real boat. I am now retired and will not have the > funds to complete this project. > > I have the boat for sale on craigslist: > http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/boa/492836447.html > > This boat is just under 35' on deck and has lots of interior space > with the 11' 8" beam. Brent and Evan Shaler both helped me by working > on this project and the pictures will show the "Swain" influence in > the cabin/pilothouse, skeg and outboard rudder. > > If you're interested, take a look at my ad and then email or telephone > me with questions or to set up a visit to the boat. > > Cheers, > > Stephen > | 20008|19991|2009-03-31 09:15:57|Ben Okopnik|Re: Head and shower system|On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 07:26:57AM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > Hi Brent; > > >From my understanding the act of showering is to clean the body. > In doing this the shower water becomes contaminated with ,body > fats/acids/dead skin/urine/fecal matter/pathogens and other > toxins/waste matter expelled from the body. > > How one can imagine that such a brew "keeps the bilge clean" is > something I would like to understand. I was a bit curious about that myself. In the days when I was crawling around on other people's boats, the filthiest, vilest-smelling bilges were the ones where the shower drained into them. The one time that I had to replace the engine intake through-hull on such a boat, I had to tell the owner to scrub the area around it himself: not only was the smell absolutely vomit-inducing [1], but the combination of soap scum and body oils was almost impossible to scrub off. As to inside showers in general, there aren't too many good choices. Shower pans are a huge pain in the ass; water is heavy, and trying to carry a full pan on a rocking boat can be a mess. The only really workable inside showers I've seen have been on relatively large boats, where they had a diaphragm pump and - this is the thing that makes it all work - lots of water flow (which implies lots of tankage), which carries all the crap out through large pipes. Hair, of which unbelievable amounts come off during a shower (especially if there's a woman aboard!) will kill every other pump setup damn near instantly. In general, though, I consider The One Right Answer to "how do I take showers inside?" to be "sail south and take them outside." :) In the tropics, you mostly just jump in the water with a bottle of Joy or Dawn dish soap, and then do a spray-down rinse-off when you get back on board (pump-up sprayers are one of the most useful things ever on a boat.) Simple, maintainable, and leaves your boat smelling just fine. [1] One thing I *don't* have is a weak stomach. While I was a medic, I've smelled and seen enough things that I'm pretty non-reactive in that regard; dumping the head, draining infected wounds, etc. doesn't bother me. That job almost made me toss my cookies. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20009|19980|2009-03-31 12:05:42|Ray|Re: Hey Brent!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Tomorrow, March 31 the thieiving POS that stole our hull finally will have to show his face in the Duncan courthouse to stand trial. > Rowland > Is this the relative, or the scrapyard that cut up your hull? Either way, fingers crossed for an outcome that's positive.| 20010|19970|2009-03-31 13:10:47|Denis Buggy|Re: Manual starter|dear Brent save your time and money do not try and pushbutton a starter main feed you will only scorch your finger as push switches are rated for milliamp use or a little higher , a decent starter is 7.5 kilowatt. the problem with starter current is bigger than you think and it is the biggest cause of burnt out buses in this part of Europe at 300,000 euros each you learn to pay attention to starter motors . for decades now all coaches have been fitted with heavy solenoids to supply the starter solenoid with heavy current in order that when the contacts in the starter fry and weld and proceed to become a small nuclear device you can break the circuit before the starter . sometimes the newer starters remain engaged with the flywheel and will not allow the bendix to free it self and the newer engines are so powerful 420-460 hp the driver does not notice until flames and smoke appears . all of our state buses have had to be retrofitted with starter extinguishers for this reason as the modern driver stands and stares as nothing more is required of him by anybody of consequence I know everybody is sick to death of this topic however if you say nothing it is tantamount to malicious damage to somebody's nearest and dearest . experminents with low voltage and highamps will contribute to global warming take care and regards from ireland . denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Manual starter Relying totally on an electromagnet to pull the contacts together to make contact between a battery and a starter motor is complicating things. Installing a simple push button to make the contact manually is drastically simplifying things. Brent > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20011|19991|2009-03-31 14:59:31|Paul Wilson|Re: Head and shower system|Shower sumps are not nice things..science fiction movies come to mind. You have to be able to easily clean all the areas of them. Mine is a shallow sump with a grate made from cutting board material and only holds a few gallons since it is emptied after every use. The original wood grate was hard to clean and eventually rotted. I empty the sump with a diaphragm bilge pump (Guzzler 10) which never has any problem clogging although the soap attacks the diaphragm of the pump after awhile. You will need to keep a rebuild kit handy. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20012|19980|2009-03-31 15:39:17|kingsknight4life|Re: Hey Brent!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > Tomorrow, March 31 the thieiving POS that stole our hull finally will have to show his face in the Duncan courthouse to stand trial. > > Rowland > > > > Is this the relative, or the scrapyard that cut up your hull? Either way, fingers crossed for an outcome that's positive. > Bev's Uncle. He plead guilt today in court. Sentencing is in May. Rowland| 20013|19980|2009-03-31 16:17:59|bottomgun|Re: Hey Brent!|Rowland, That is great news! Now will there be some monetary reimbursement? R/Jay Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas Save the whales - collect the whole set. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kingsknight4life Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hey Brent! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > Tomorrow, March 31 the thieiving POS that stole our hull finally will have to show his face in the Duncan courthouse to stand trial. > > Rowland > > > > Is this the relative, or the scrapyard that cut up your hull? Either way, fingers crossed for an outcome that's positive. > Bev's Uncle. He plead guilt today in court. Sentencing is in May. Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20014|19991|2009-03-31 17:37:45|mark hamill|Re: Head and shower system|The boats I work on in the bare-boatcharters have several different systems. Some have a shower drain that passes through a filtre into a covered box containing a pump and a float switch. or some boxes have a built in filtre. Quite a bit of hair and gack collect in the filtres after one week with 6 people showering. All these boats have hot water tanks that can be heated by the engine or shorepower. Some boats have no filtres and no float switch and are operated by a swithc in the head. One boat has the shower draining into an uncovered box in the bilge with a float switch so it can assist the regular bilge pump when water gets higher than the box and flows in. Personally I think a manual pump (which wouldn't need a filtre for the clogging icky bits) pumping from an uncovered box in the bilge, with warm water supplied by heating on the stove or from a thermal setup as in the "Solar Boat Book" would be good. From that book i made a 2 gallon garden pump sprayer painted black that can heated with solar or stove water very easily, in good weather it can be used on deck.| 20015|19970|2009-03-31 17:54:17|brentswain38|Re: Manual starter|I can't reach it by finger so use a stick. I hope to put a rubber boot over it to keep the inside clean. The only time it wouldn't engage , was when the key stuck and I ran it without knowing, engaged for several minutes. Got her working again, the epoxy was scorched but it became a spare and is now back in use. The push button option is for emergencies when she wont engage and you are heading for the rocks, and a scorched starter are the least of your worries. I've been told of older starters that had the manual option built in at the factory. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > dear Brent > save your time and money do not try and pushbutton a starter main feed you will only scorch your finger as push switches are rated for milliamp use or a little higher , a decent starter is 7.5 kilowatt. > the problem with starter current is bigger than you think and it is the biggest cause of burnt out buses in this part of Europe at 300,000 euros each you learn to pay attention to starter motors . > for decades now all coaches have been fitted with heavy solenoids to supply the starter solenoid with heavy current in order that when the contacts in the starter fry and weld and proceed to become a small nuclear device you can break the circuit before the starter . > sometimes the newer starters remain engaged with the flywheel and will not allow the bendix to free it self and the newer engines are so powerful 420-460 hp the driver does not notice until flames and smoke appears . > all of our state buses have had to be retrofitted with starter extinguishers for this reason as the modern driver stands and stares as nothing more is required of him by anybody of consequence > I know everybody is sick to death of this topic however if you say nothing it is tantamount to malicious damage to somebody's nearest and dearest . > experminents with low voltage and highamps will contribute to global warming take care and regards from ireland . denis buggy > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:02 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Manual starter > > > Relying totally on an electromagnet to pull the contacts together to make contact between a battery and a starter motor is complicating things. Installing a simple push button to make the contact manually is drastically simplifying things. > Brent > > > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20016|4193|2009-03-31 18:03:20|brentswain38|Re: skeg cooling|I have a header tank made out of a 9 inch long piece of six inch diameter tubing. I just push one of those soft plastic caps over the 1 1/2 inch filler. No pressure needed. If you put the outlet running to the skeg directly under the filler cap and make up a length of ss pipe with a hose fitting on one end and a plastic hose barb on the other , you can hook up to a pressure tank filed with anti freeze and force your coolant in , forcing the air bubbles out. You just jam the hose barb in the outlet . To flush you just hook up to a hose and let her run with the outlet in the cockpit. Yuo can change the water for antifreeze later. Engines with metal impellers in the pump ( Isuzu) only work with header tanks as they won't lift coolant, just circulate it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > So for the cooling system with the skeg cooler, does one need an over flow tank with some sort of pressure valve on it to maintain a closed system like on a car or can i just get away with not filling the skeg up all the way to take up the expansion of the coolent? > | 20017|19991|2009-03-31 18:05:07|brentswain38|Re: Head and shower system|I've had enough condensation in these lattitudes to keep it clean altho one has the option of a sump tank specifically for the shower in the bilge. You can take the whole thing ashore to clean it. Make the whole top removable if you want to really scrub it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 07:26:57AM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > Hi Brent; > > > > >From my understanding the act of showering is to clean the body. > > In doing this the shower water becomes contaminated with ,body > > fats/acids/dead skin/urine/fecal matter/pathogens and other > > toxins/waste matter expelled from the body. > > > > How one can imagine that such a brew "keeps the bilge clean" is > > something I would like to understand. > > I was a bit curious about that myself. In the days when I was crawling > around on other people's boats, the filthiest, vilest-smelling bilges > were the ones where the shower drained into them. The one time that I > had to replace the engine intake through-hull on such a boat, I had to > tell the owner to scrub the area around it himself: not only was the > smell absolutely vomit-inducing [1], but the combination of soap scum > and body oils was almost impossible to scrub off. > > As to inside showers in general, there aren't too many good choices. > Shower pans are a huge pain in the ass; water is heavy, and trying to > carry a full pan on a rocking boat can be a mess. The only really > workable inside showers I've seen have been on relatively large boats, > where they had a diaphragm pump and - this is the thing that makes it > all work - lots of water flow (which implies lots of tankage), which > carries all the crap out through large pipes. Hair, of which > unbelievable amounts come off during a shower (especially if there's a > woman aboard!) will kill every other pump setup damn near instantly. > > In general, though, I consider The One Right Answer to "how do I take > showers inside?" to be "sail south and take them outside." :) In the > tropics, you mostly just jump in the water with a bottle of Joy or Dawn > dish soap, and then do a spray-down rinse-off when you get back on > board (pump-up sprayers are one of the most useful things ever on a > boat.) Simple, maintainable, and leaves your boat smelling just fine. > > > [1] One thing I *don't* have is a weak stomach. While I was a medic, > I've smelled and seen enough things that I'm pretty non-reactive in that > regard; dumping the head, draining infected wounds, etc. doesn't bother > me. That job almost made me toss my cookies. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20018|19991|2009-03-31 18:40:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: Head and shower system|On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 07:57:26AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > Shower sumps are not nice things..science fiction movies come to mind. :))) > The original wood grate was hard to clean and eventually rotted. I've become a big fan of that gray plastic wood they sell at hardware stores. There's also some stuff called 'Veranda' that Home Depot sells; as long as you don't need a huge amount of strength, it's a good, rot-proof replacement for wood. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20019|19991|2009-03-31 19:55:41|mark hamill|Re: Head and shower system|Suppose one added a one way valve at the bottom of the box--when it contained shower water it would close due the inner water pressure but when empty or nearly so the flap could open and allow water from the bilge to enter and be pumped out adding a thrum box/debris filtre to it and it could serve two functions in one--it would not have to be an electric pump with float switch. One problem might be the pressure required to close the flaP? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > The boats I work on in the bare-boatcharters have several different systems. Some have a shower drain that passes through a filtre into a covered box containing a pump and a float switch. or some boxes have a built in filtre. Quite a bit of hair and gack collect in the filtres after one week with 6 people showering. All these boats have hot water tanks that can be heated by the engine or shorepower. Some boats have no filtres and no float switch and are operated by a swithc in the head. One boat has the shower draining into an uncovered box in the bilge with a float switch so it can assist the regular bilge pump when water gets higher than the box and flows in. > Personally I think a manual pump (which wouldn't need a filtre for the clogging icky bits) pumping from an uncovered box in the bilge, with warm water supplied by heating on the stove or from a thermal setup as in the "Solar Boat Book" would be good. From that book i made a 2 gallon garden pump sprayer painted black that can heated with solar or stove water very easily, in good weather it can be used on deck. > | 20020|4193|2009-03-31 22:24:05|theboilerflue|Re: skeg cooling|Ok so let me get this straight. As i understand it you have a small tank made out of pipe connected above the skeg with a set up that allows you to force water/antifreeze into the skeg and thus up into the engine. So as long as your header tank is above the engine and always has coolent in it, air will never enter the block and cause an air lock. "you can hook up to a pressure tank filed with anti freeze and force your coolant in" this pressure tank I don't quite understand however. is this another tank you have in the system or is this basically a bucket with aq pump? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have a header tank made out of a 9 inch long piece of six inch diameter tubing. I just push one of those soft plastic caps over the 1 1/2 inch filler. No pressure needed. If you put the outlet running to the skeg directly under the filler cap and make up a length of ss pipe with a hose fitting on one end and a plastic hose barb on the other , you can hook up to a pressure tank filed with anti freeze and force your coolant in , forcing the air bubbles out. You just jam the hose barb in the outlet . To flush you just hook up to a hose and let her run with the outlet in the cockpit. Yuo can change the water for antifreeze later. > Engines with metal impellers in the pump ( Isuzu) only work with header tanks as they won't lift coolant, just circulate it. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > So for the cooling system with the skeg cooler, does one need an over flow tank with some sort of pressure valve on it to maintain a closed system like on a car or can i just get away with not filling the skeg up all the way to take up the expansion of the coolent? > > > | 20021|4193|2009-03-31 22:48:49|theboilerflue|Re: skeg cooling|Funny thing is when i google "skeg cooling" 5 out of 8 returns are brent boats. It seems like such a simple clean system that more people would have it but i guess not. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have a header tank made out of a 9 inch long piece of six inch diameter tubing. I just push one of those soft plastic caps over the 1 1/2 inch filler. No pressure needed. If you put the outlet running to the skeg directly under the filler cap and make up a length of ss pipe with a hose fitting on one end and a plastic hose barb on the other , you can hook up to a pressure tank filed with anti freeze and force your coolant in , forcing the air bubbles out. You just jam the hose barb in the outlet . To flush you just hook up to a hose and let her run with the outlet in the cockpit. Yuo can change the water for antifreeze later. > Engines with metal impellers in the pump ( Isuzu) only work with header tanks as they won't lift coolant, just circulate it. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > So for the cooling system with the skeg cooler, does one need an over flow tank with some sort of pressure valve on it to maintain a closed system like on a car or can i just get away with not filling the skeg up all the way to take up the expansion of the coolent? > > > | 20022|19980|2009-03-31 23:15:53|hoss_manes|Re: hello again|i live in newfoundland, i followed up on len blowers 40ft aluminuim boat, it looks like its sold again to a guy in the states now, i've been away from the site for awhile, lots of catch up ,lol great site! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Years ago a guy phoned me up and asked where he could get a bare hull. I told him to buy a load of steel, and in less than three weeks we could have a hull, decks cabin , wheelhouse cockpit , keel and skeg in far less time and trouble than it would take him to find a hull, negotiate it's purchase and move it. He bought a load of steel and less than three weeks later he had what he wanted. The boat is now in New Guinea. > He started with new wheelabraded material, and knew exactly what he had. > Where are you? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hoss_manes" wrote: > > > > looking for a project boat, any around? > > 36 ft plus > > > | 20023|4193|2009-04-01 03:49:32|edward_stoneuk|Re: skeg cooling|Hi Brent, I have been thinking about fitting a header tank. What is the 9" x 6" diameter tubing made from? Do you run the coolant system unpressurised? Do you leave an air space above the coolant in the header tank? Thanks, Ted > > I have a header tank made out of a 9 inch long piece of six inch diameter tubing. I just push one of those soft plastic caps over the 1 1/2 inch filler. No pressure needed. If you put the outlet running to the skeg directly under the filler cap and make up a length of ss pipe with a hose fitting on one end and a plastic hose barb on the other , you can hook up to a pressure tank filed with anti freeze and force your coolant in , forcing the air bubbles out. You just jam the hose barb in the outlet . To flush you just hook up to a hose and let her run with the outlet in the cockpit. Yuo can change the water for antifreeze later. > Engines with metal impellers in the pump ( Isuzu) only work with header tanks as they won't lift coolant, just circulate it. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > So for the cooling system with the skeg cooler, does one need an over flow tank with some sort of pressure valve on it to maintain a closed system like on a car or can i just get away with not filling the skeg up all the way to take up the expansion of the coolent? > > > | 20024|19991|2009-04-01 03:53:04|edward_stoneuk|Re: Head and shower system|Hi Mark, I should think that the problem with a one way valve would be that it might be held open with hair, bits of soap, fingernail trimmings, band aids and all the usual human detritus that one gets in the bottom of a shower. Same probelm as with a pump. Regards, Ted| 20025|19991|2009-04-01 10:21:26|audeojude|Re: Head and shower system|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 07:57:26AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Shower sumps are not nice things..science fiction movies come to mind. > > :))) > > > The original wood grate was hard to clean and eventually rotted. > > I've become a big fan of that gray plastic wood they sell at hardware > stores. There's also some stuff called 'Veranda' that Home Depot sells; > as long as you don't need a huge amount of strength, it's a good, > rot-proof replacement for wood. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * That probably would work well for indoor use. For outdoor use I wouldnt like that stuff as most of the decks ive seen using it were warping or going gooey on the surface etc.... I've heard of people happy with it but none that I have seen after a year or so in use have impressed me at all.| 20026|20026|2009-04-01 10:51:59|Ben Okopnik|Upcoming GPS service brownouts|Today may be April 1st (happy birthday to me, by the way), but this isn't much of a joke. Hope you folks are all brushed up on your sextant skills... ------ From the RISKS Digest ----------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:59:21 -0700 From: Mike Tashker Subject: GPS Outages Feared In a press conference today (1 April 2009), a spokesman for the U.S. Air Force GPS Wing has confirmed fears that a worldwide outage of GPS service is likely. The current system may reach peak capacity before the launch of the next-generation Global Positioning System Space Segment satellites, known as GPS Block III, in 2014. "The huge proliferation of civilian hand-held, cellphone, and vehicle-based GPS equipment has taxed available bandwidth on the existing satellite constellation beyond our expectations," said Major Stan Ford Parkinson. "We expect that the transceivers in the Block III satellites will handle the load through 2040. But there's a likelihood of a gap -- a rolling worldwide GPS 'brown-out' -- between now and the first launches." The Air Force is planning a competitive procurement to study the potentially catastrophic effects on transportation and other industries that could occur as early as 2011. This appears to be a good use of stimulus funds, especially if it stimulates some more far-sighted thinking. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20027|19991|2009-04-01 11:54:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: Head and shower system|On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 02:18:35PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > I've become a big fan of that gray plastic wood they sell at hardware > > stores. There's also some stuff called 'Veranda' that Home Depot sells; > > as long as you don't need a huge amount of strength, it's a good, > > rot-proof replacement for wood. > > That probably would work well for indoor use. For outdoor use I > wouldnt like that stuff as most of the decks ive seen using it were > warping or going gooey on the surface etc.... I've heard of people > happy with it but none that I have seen after a year or so in use have > impressed me at all. I've got a bunch of it sitting outside, in bright sunlight, and often wet (I used it for slats to fill in the space around the engine cover in my cockpit); the local marina here has replaced all the wood on their concrete-covered floating docks with it; even the city of St. Augustine got rid of their wooden trash containers and replaced them with ones built of this stuff. I've had mine for over a year; the marina and the city have been converting their stuff for longer than that - and none of it has warped or gone "gooey" in any way that I can see. Looking around, it seems that the National Parks Service is converting all their outdoor stuff (tables, restrooms, etc.) to this stuff: http://www.nps.gov/sustain/spop/wood.html A lot of it also comes with a lifetime warranty against rot, splintering, termites, etc. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20028|20026|2009-04-01 11:55:46|Donal Philby|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|Ben, This has me confused. But first: Happy Birthday. I want all of them I can rack up. A friend I used to crew for on a race boat for many years just turned 94 and is still skippering his Rogers 39 and playing tennis several times a week. He did, last year, visit us on Vancouver Island after a ski trip to Whistler, but said it was finally time to put away the skis. May we be so blessed. I thought that the GPS system simply transmitted signals that the receivers used to determine position. It that is the case, it would be like a broadcast station complaining that they had too many listeners blocking the airwaves. Cellphones aren't contacting the satellites. Or am I missing something fundamental? But I will be selling off two of my four sextants soon anyway. donal -----Original Message----- >From: Ben Okopnik >In a press conference today (1 April 2009), a spokesman for the U.S. Air >Force GPS Wing has confirmed fears that a worldwide outage of GPS service is >likely. >"The huge proliferation of civilian hand-held, cellphone, and vehicle-based >GPS equipment has taxed available bandwidth on the existing satellite >constellation beyond our expectations," said Major Stan Ford Parkinson. | 20029|20026|2009-04-01 12:25:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 11:53:43AM -0400, Donal Philby wrote: > Ben, > This has me confused. > > But first: Happy Birthday. I want all of them I can rack up. A > friend I used to crew for on a race boat for many years just turned 94 > and is still skippering his Rogers 39 and playing tennis several times > a week. He did, last year, visit us on Vancouver Island after a ski > trip to Whistler, but said it was finally time to put away the skis. > May we be so blessed. I'm with you on that one, Donal. I love to see older folks who haven't given up; hell, I think that's *how* people get old - not by reaching some age, but by giving up. I've been privileged to know a number who haven't, and they're just great to be around: wit, wisdom, a strong sense of self, and usually a great big dollop of humor to top it all off. > I thought that the GPS system simply transmitted signals that the > receivers used to determine position. It that is the case, it would > be like a broadcast station complaining that they had too many > listeners blocking the airwaves. Cellphones aren't contacting the > satellites. Or am I missing something fundamental? Just a small piece, but - yes, you are. A connection between a transmitter and a receiver requires that some amount of power - "signal", if you will - flow between the two. In the case of, say, an AM radio, that amount is fairly small - only a few milliwatts - but it is there and it is required. Meanwhile, to get that level of signal to the receiver, the transmitter has to pump fairly hard: even small commercial radio stations tend to go with a 50 *kilowatt* transmitter. Even given the transmission losses, they can accomodate quite a lot of listeners. They can do this because land-based radio stations can draw on (essentially) unlimited power - which is cheap and easy. Moreover, they're not transmitting all that far: land-based radio tends to be mostly line-of-sight. Now, switch this same scenario to a satellite. They have to send their signal 21000km/13048mi to reach an Earth-based station, which means that the signal loss is huge (~182dB); their input power is strictly limited by whatever their solar panels can gather (1136 watts); their output power - dictated by the amount of input - is _very_ low (would you believe *500* watts?), and their "audience" has grown by huge leaps and bounds from a very small number that was originally projected to damn near everybody and their dog (yes, you can get dog collars with built-in GPS now.) So, yeah, a transmitter does have a definite fixed upper limit on how many receivers it can service. > But I will be selling off two of my four sextants soon anyway. You might want to hold on to them for a little bit; you'll be able to sell them for a bit more as the news spreads. };-> -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20030|8315|2009-04-01 13:24:05|Michael Casling|Shower|For the shower pan, I used some heavy vynal / plastic material. It sits on the shower floor with folds at the corners and comes up the sides about fifteen inches. The corners are hooked in place. A shower curtain is installed all the way around on hooks and sliding track. Water pressure can come from a bucket and bilge pump, or pressure cooker, or a container run up the mast. The pan requires manual draining after use with a bucket and sponge. The pan also does double duty as a hull patch or drogue if required. A 3/16 rope is sewn in the top edge. Michael| 20031|8315|2009-04-01 13:32:03|Ben Okopnik|Re: Shower|On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 05:23:41PM -0000, Michael Casling wrote: > For the shower pan, I used some heavy vynal / plastic material. > It sits on the shower floor with folds at the corners and comes up the sides about fifteen inches. The corners are hooked in place. A shower curtain is installed all the way around on hooks and sliding track. > Water pressure can come from a bucket and bilge pump, or pressure cooker, or a container run up the mast. > The pan requires manual draining after use with a bucket and sponge. > The pan also does double duty as a hull patch or drogue if required. > A 3/16 rope is sewn in the top edge. Nice setup - I suppose you use a bucket to empty it, or perhaps drain it into the head (depending on how that's set up.) I often thought that oil change kits, the ones that use a heavy plastic box with a 4" screw-top lid, would be pretty good for that - but then you'd need to give up 3" (that's about how tall those boxes are) under the sole of the shower, and designing it so that it was easily removable but didn't leak would be a little tricky. My advice is still "sail south and dive overboard." :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20032|20026|2009-04-01 14:20:40|Paul Wilson|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|This might be as big a problem as the polyestermites which were eating fiberglass boats until they were eradicated in the 70's. Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 5:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Upcoming GPS service brownouts On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 11:53:43AM -0400, Donal Philby wrote: > Ben, > This has me confused. > > But first: Happy Birthday. I want all of them I can rack up. A > friend I used to crew for on a race boat for many years just turned 94 > and is still skippering his Rogers 39 and playing tennis several times > a week. He did, last year, visit us on Vancouver Island after a ski > trip to Whistler, but said it was finally time to put away the skis. > May we be so blessed. I'm with you on that one, Donal. I love to see older folks who haven't given up; hell, I think that's *how* people get old - not by reaching some age, but by giving up. I've been privileged to know a number who haven't, and they're just great to be around: wit, wisdom, a strong sense of self, and usually a great big dollop of humor to top it all off. > I thought that the GPS system simply transmitted signals that the > receivers used to determine position. It that is the case, it would > be like a broadcast station complaining that they had too many > listeners blocking the airwaves. Cellphones aren't contacting the > satellites. Or am I missing something fundamental? Just a small piece, but - yes, you are. A connection between a transmitter and a receiver requires that some amount of power - "signal", if you will - flow between the two. In the case of, say, an AM radio, that amount is fairly small - only a few milliwatts - but it is there and it is required. Meanwhile, to get that level of signal to the receiver, the transmitter has to pump fairly hard: even small commercial radio stations tend to go with a 50 *kilowatt* transmitter. Even given the transmission losses, they can accomodate quite a lot of listeners. They can do this because land-based radio stations can draw on (essentially) unlimited power - which is cheap and easy. Moreover, they're not transmitting all that far: land-based radio tends to be mostly line-of-sight. Now, switch this same scenario to a satellite. They have to send their signal 21000km/13048mi to reach an Earth-based station, which means that the signal loss is huge (~182dB); their input power is strictly limited by whatever their solar panels can gather (1136 watts); their output power - dictated by the amount of input - is _very_ low (would you believe *500* watts?), and their "audience" has grown by huge leaps and bounds from a very small number that was originally projected to damn near everybody and their dog (yes, you can get dog collars with built-in GPS now.) So, yeah, a transmitter does have a definite fixed upper limit on how many receivers it can service. > But I will be selling off two of my four sextants soon anyway. You might want to hold on to them for a little bit; you'll be able to sell them for a bit more as the news spreads. };-> -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20033|4193|2009-04-01 15:51:58|brentswain38|Re: skeg cooling|Yes yo have it right. The pressure tank is an SS pop container, like the ones behind the shop where you picked up your boat. Maybe Jim will sell you one. Get one with no plastic on and you can use it for your shower. I put mine on top of the wood stove till it feels right for a shower, then pump it up with a tyre pump to about 40 lbs then have the shower below, or in remote anchorages, in the cockpit. Fill it to about 3/4 full, to allow space for the air. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Ok so let me get this straight. As i understand it you have a small tank made out of pipe connected above the skeg with a set up that allows you to force water/antifreeze into the skeg and thus up into the engine. So as long as your header tank is above the engine and always has coolent in it, air will never enter the block and cause an air lock. "you can hook up to a pressure tank filed with anti freeze and force your coolant in" this pressure tank I don't quite understand however. is this another tank you have in the system or is this basically a bucket with aq pump? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I have a header tank made out of a 9 inch long piece of six inch diameter tubing. I just push one of those soft plastic caps over the 1 1/2 inch filler. No pressure needed. If you put the outlet running to the skeg directly under the filler cap and make up a length of ss pipe with a hose fitting on one end and a plastic hose barb on the other , you can hook up to a pressure tank filed with anti freeze and force your coolant in , forcing the air bubbles out. You just jam the hose barb in the outlet . To flush you just hook up to a hose and let her run with the outlet in the cockpit. Yuo can change the water for antifreeze later. > > Engines with metal impellers in the pump ( Isuzu) only work with header tanks as they won't lift coolant, just circulate it. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > So for the cooling system with the skeg cooler, does one need an over flow tank with some sort of pressure valve on it to maintain a closed system like on a car or can i just get away with not filling the skeg up all the way to take up the expansion of the coolent? > > > > > > | 20034|4193|2009-04-01 15:54:53|brentswain38|Re: skeg cooling|Diesel salesmen do a great sales job on heat exchangers, and make more money that way. One Mechanic in Port Townsend was quoted as saying "If everyone went for keel cooling and dry exhuast, we mechanics would all be out of work." Promoting heat exchangers keeps them employed in the repair business and it's to them people go for advice on what they need. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Funny thing is when i google "skeg cooling" 5 out of 8 returns are brent boats. It seems like such a simple clean system that more people would have it but i guess not. > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I have a header tank made out of a 9 inch long piece of six inch diameter tubing. I just push one of those soft plastic caps over the 1 1/2 inch filler. No pressure needed. If you put the outlet running to the skeg directly under the filler cap and make up a length of ss pipe with a hose fitting on one end and a plastic hose barb on the other , you can hook up to a pressure tank filed with anti freeze and force your coolant in , forcing the air bubbles out. You just jam the hose barb in the outlet . To flush you just hook up to a hose and let her run with the outlet in the cockpit. Yuo can change the water for antifreeze later. > > Engines with metal impellers in the pump ( Isuzu) only work with header tanks as they won't lift coolant, just circulate it. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > So for the cooling system with the skeg cooler, does one need an over flow tank with some sort of pressure valve on it to maintain a closed system like on a car or can i just get away with not filling the skeg up all the way to take up the expansion of the coolent? > > > > > > | 20035|4193|2009-04-01 15:57:09|brentswain38|Re: skeg cooling|I use stainless tubing with a 16 guage wall, which is common in scrapyards here. I leave a couple of inches air space above the coolant and no pressure, as the plastic cap is just pushed on. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > I have been thinking about fitting a header tank. > > What is the 9" x 6" diameter tubing made from? > > Do you run the coolant system unpressurised? > > Do you leave an air space above the coolant in the header tank? > > Thanks, > > Ted > > > > > > > I have a header tank made out of a 9 inch long piece of six inch diameter tubing. I just push one of those soft plastic caps over the 1 1/2 inch filler. No pressure needed. If you put the outlet running to the skeg directly under the filler cap and make up a length of ss pipe with a hose fitting on one end and a plastic hose barb on the other , you can hook up to a pressure tank filed with anti freeze and force your coolant in , forcing the air bubbles out. You just jam the hose barb in the outlet . To flush you just hook up to a hose and let her run with the outlet in the cockpit. Yuo can change the water for antifreeze later. > > Engines with metal impellers in the pump ( Isuzu) only work with header tanks as they won't lift coolant, just circulate it. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > So for the cooling system with the skeg cooler, does one need an over flow tank with some sort of pressure valve on it to maintain a closed system like on a car or can i just get away with not filling the skeg up all the way to take up the expansion of the coolent? > > > > > > | 20036|20026|2009-04-01 16:00:13|brentswain38|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|That would drastically reduce the number of rich yuppies crowding the anchorages around the world, and leave the cruising grounds to those who are not intimidated by the simple rithmatic of celestial navigation, or logic. Have to add and subtract to figure out where to you are? Scary! Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > Today may be April 1st (happy birthday to me, by the way), but this > isn't much of a joke. Hope you folks are all brushed up on your sextant > skills... > > ------ From the RISKS Digest ----------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:59:21 -0700 > From: Mike Tashker > Subject: GPS Outages Feared > > In a press conference today (1 April 2009), a spokesman for the U.S. Air > Force GPS Wing has confirmed fears that a worldwide outage of GPS service is > likely. The current system may reach peak capacity before the launch of the > next-generation Global Positioning System Space Segment satellites, known as > GPS Block III, in 2014. > > "The huge proliferation of civilian hand-held, cellphone, and vehicle-based > GPS equipment has taxed available bandwidth on the existing satellite > constellation beyond our expectations," said Major Stan Ford Parkinson. "We > expect that the transceivers in the Block III satellites will handle the > load through 2040. But there's a likelihood of a gap -- a rolling worldwide > GPS 'brown-out' -- between now and the first launches." > > The Air Force is planning a competitive procurement to study the potentially > catastrophic effects on transportation and other industries that could occur > as early as 2011. This appears to be a good use of stimulus funds, > especially if it stimulates some more far-sighted thinking. > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20037|20026|2009-04-01 17:09:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 08:00:04PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > That would drastically reduce the number of rich yuppies crowding the > anchorages around the world, and leave the cruising grounds to those > who are not intimidated by the simple rithmatic of celestial > navigation, or logic. That would make me happy as all hell. :) > Have to add and subtract to figure out where to you are? Scary! I've been studying the S tables - all it requires is an almanac and 9 pages worth of tables. The damn thing *still* requires having a brain, though - it's just shocking what we expect of people these days! A friend of mine used to have a site about aeronautical engineering, with lots of valuable goodies on it. The material was freely downloadable - except that you had to solve a random but relatively simple quadratic equation (on the order of '2x^2 + 4x - 16 = 0') to get into the site in the first place. Comparing the number of login attempts with the number of successes was... funny and appalling at the same time. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20038|20038|2009-04-01 17:35:28|pynrc@aol.com|Head and shower systems|We have a strainer like you buy to put in the kitchen sink, sitting in our shower drain. Works well. The water ends up in a tall narrow tank with an open top. There is a small electric pump which is very easily removable. It sits on a strut which goes to the bottom of the tank, but unbolts from the top. You remove the strut and the pump as one. The best part is that I use two cheap hinged float switches in the tank, one one top and one bottom. They are connected through a relay to form a latching circuit. The pump switches on when the tank is full, and switches off when it is empty. This means that the pump only comes on once a day usually, instead of constantly on an off for short periods as with a single switch system. Tried and tested for 20 yrs. Regards, Richard. ________________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE AOL Email account with unlimited storage. Experience Email and instant messaging together - chat while you mail and mail while you chat! Register for your free email account at http://free.aol.com.au| 20039|20026|2009-04-01 19:16:04|T & D Cain|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|The laws of physics and the communications subset must have changed (perhaps only in the US?) There is no such power flow as described in this part, it is simply wrong. Just a small piece, but - yes, you are. A connection between a transmitter and a receiver requires that some amount of power - "signal", if you will - flow between the two. In the case of, say, an AM radio, that amount is fairly small - only a few milliwatts - but it is there and it is required. Meanwhile, to get that level of signal to the receiver, the transmitter has to pump fairly hard: even small commercial radio stations tend to go with a 50 *kilowatt* transmitter. Even given the transmission losses, they can accomodate quite a lot of listeners. -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Thursday, 2 April 2009 01:54 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Upcoming GPS service brownouts Cheers, Terry (AOCP and BOCP) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20040|19991|2009-04-01 19:33:30|theboilerflue|Re: Head and shower system|Yeah I used that stuff for my window frames got from comox builders/slegg lumber they called it Altwood 100% plastic there is other stuff that has wood fibers mixed with plastic and is stronger but is way more expensive > On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 07:57:26AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Shower sumps are not nice things..science fiction movies come to mind. > > :))) > > > The original wood grate was hard to clean and eventually rotted. > > I've become a big fan of that gray plastic wood they sell at hardware > stores. There's also some stuff called 'Veranda' that Home Depot sells; > as long as you don't need a huge amount of strength, it's a good, > rot-proof replacement for wood. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20041|20026|2009-04-01 19:33:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 08:45:33AM +0930, T & D Cain wrote: > The laws of physics and the communications subset must have changed (perhaps > only in the US?) Not at all. Your understanding of those laws, however, clearly leaves much to be desired. I suggest you look up the term "coupling" and do a little reading... no, actually, a lot of reading. Then, come back and admit you're wrong. > There is no such power flow as described in this part, it is simply wrong. I'll be sure to accept you as an authority really soon now. Just let me know when you've become the Royal Astronomer or something similar. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20042|19991|2009-04-01 19:40:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: Head and shower system|On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 11:33:17PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > Yeah I used that stuff for my window frames got from comox > builders/slegg lumber they called it Altwood 100% plastic there is > other stuff that has wood fibers mixed with plastic and is stronger > but is way more expensive The stuff I'm using is a bit cheaper than wood in equivalent sizes. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20043|19991|2009-04-01 19:52:25|theboilerflue|Re: Head and shower system|Yeah the alt wood wasn't very cheap either (for recycled plastic) barely less than wood, actually you could have gotten low grade lumber for cheaper I'm still pretty disgusted at myself for buying plastic at such prices. The stuff is very hard to work with, you can't bend it really at all - just shatters maybe if you heated it in an oven it would bend alright and it's full of air holes. I had a hell of a time finding it at all, and could only get 4x4s which i ripped into 2x2s and 2x4s for the frames and the outside edge of the frames (the inside of the 4x4) is pierced with holes like an aero bar but at least the foam will cover up that. And i should never have a problem of rust, mold or pealling paint with them. If any body ever uses it try to get 2x2s as they would have less holes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 11:33:17PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > Yeah I used that stuff for my window frames got from comox > > builders/slegg lumber they called it Altwood 100% plastic there is > > other stuff that has wood fibers mixed with plastic and is stronger > > but is way more expensive > > The stuff I'm using is a bit cheaper than wood in equivalent sizes. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20044|19991|2009-04-01 19:59:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Head and shower system|On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 11:52:14PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > Yeah the alt wood wasn't very cheap either (for recycled plastic) > barely less than wood, actually you could have gotten low grade lumber > for cheaper I'm still pretty disgusted at myself for buying plastic at > such prices. The stuff is very hard to work with, you can't bend it > really at all It's certainly not as flexible as wood, I agree. On the other hand, you'll never get a splinter. :) > - just shatters maybe if you heated it in an oven it > would bend alright and it's full of air holes. I had a hell of a time > finding it at all, and could only get 4x4s which i ripped into 2x2s > and 2x4s Yikes. I don't think it's really intended to be used like that - not that it's a problem, but one of the big advantages of the stuff is its surface finish. Ripping it, of course, blows that away. > for the frames and the outside edge of the frames (the inside > of the 4x4) is pierced with holes like an aero bar but at least the > foam will cover up that. And i should never have a problem of rust, > mold or pealling paint with them. If any body ever uses it try to get > 2x2s as they would have less holes. Home Depot has it in pretty much every size you could want; I suspect it'll become more popular and more available elsewhere soon. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20045|19991|2009-04-01 20:25:25|theboilerflue|Re: Head and shower system|Home depot in town didn't have any never did carry it (maybe not in canada?) they did have the expensive plastic decking however (why one wouldn't buy cedar for cheaper i'll never know) I left the finished surface on the widow sill face -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 11:52:14PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > Yeah the alt wood wasn't very cheap either (for recycled plastic) > > barely less than wood, actually you could have gotten low grade lumber > > for cheaper I'm still pretty disgusted at myself for buying plastic at > > such prices. The stuff is very hard to work with, you can't bend it > > really at all > > It's certainly not as flexible as wood, I agree. On the other hand, > you'll never get a splinter. :) > > > - just shatters maybe if you heated it in an oven it > > would bend alright and it's full of air holes. I had a hell of a time > > finding it at all, and could only get 4x4s which i ripped into 2x2s > > and 2x4s > > Yikes. I don't think it's really intended to be used like that - not > that it's a problem, but one of the big advantages of the stuff is its > surface finish. Ripping it, of course, blows that away. > > > for the frames and the outside edge of the frames (the inside > > of the 4x4) is pierced with holes like an aero bar but at least the > > foam will cover up that. And i should never have a problem of rust, > > mold or pealling paint with them. If any body ever uses it try to get > > 2x2s as they would have less holes. > > Home Depot has it in pretty much every size you could want; I suspect > it'll become more popular and more available elsewhere soon. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20046|20026|2009-04-01 21:23:38|Dale J. Robertson|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|April fools Hoax. A longstanding tradition! Dale Robertson Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 08:45:33AM +0930, T & D Cain wrote: > >> The laws of physics and the communications subset must have changed (perhaps >> only in the US?) >> > > Not at all. Your understanding of those laws, however, clearly leaves > much to be desired. I suggest you look up the term "coupling" and do a > little reading... no, actually, a lot of reading. Then, come back and > admit you're wrong. > > >> There is no such power flow as described in this part, it is simply wrong. >> > > I'll be sure to accept you as an authority really soon now. Just let me > know when you've become the Royal Astronomer or something similar. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20047|20026|2009-04-01 22:15:55|Ben Okopnik|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 09:23:12PM -0400, Dale J. Robertson wrote: > April fools Hoax. A longstanding tradition! It's possible. But I doubt it. http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/25.62.html#subj1 http://www.insidegnss.com/node/154 The people at NAVCEN/NIS didn't deny it when I called them but referred me to the GPS Wing; I'll call the PR people at Shriever AFB tomorrow and get the full story. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20048|20026|2009-04-01 23:02:37|Aaron Williams|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|I cant believe the Okopnik fell for it ! I think the solar magnetic field that may hit in 2012 will have a little effect though. Aaron --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Upcoming GPS service brownouts To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 6:15 PM On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 09:23:12PM -0400, Dale J. Robertson wrote: > April fools Hoax. A longstanding tradition! It's possible. But I doubt it. http://catless. ncl.ac.uk/ Risks/25. 62.html#subj1 http://www.insidegn ss.com/node/ 154 The people at NAVCEN/NIS didn't deny it when I called them but referred me to the GPS Wing; I'll call the PR people at Shriever AFB tomorrow and get the full story. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20049|20026|2009-04-01 23:04:10|Dale J. Robertson|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|GPS Wing is based at LA AFB. Their web page http://www.losangeles.af.mil/news/ appears to be up to the minute with their press releases (including one today). Their press office is at (310) 653-1131 If Inside GNSS had the story up on their page it's gone now. I seriously doubt that Risks.org (a UK site) got granted an exclusive by the US military. All that without even considering the technical merits of such an assertion. I suspect if you solve the equation for coupling at a distance of around 1 billion lambda (20,200 KM orbital altitude / 20 cm wavelength) you will find the effect pretty negligible. I'm just saying....... Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 09:23:12PM -0400, Dale J. Robertson wrote: > >> April fools Hoax. A longstanding tradition! >> > > It's possible. But I doubt it. > > http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/25.62.html#subj1 > http://www.insidegnss.com/node/154 > > The people at NAVCEN/NIS didn't deny it when I called them but referred > me to the GPS Wing; I'll call the PR people at Shriever AFB tomorrow and > get the full story. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20050|20026|2009-04-01 23:55:19|Ben Okopnik|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 08:02:36PM -0700, Aaron Williams wrote: > I cant believe the Okopnik fell for it ! I wouldn't crow about it just yet. :) >I think the solar magnetic > field that may hit in 2012 will have a little effect though. You fell for *that????* :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20051|20026|2009-04-02 01:03:57|Donal Philby|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|-----Original Message----- >From: brentswain38 >That would drastically reduce the number of rich yuppies crowding the anchorages around the world, and leave the cruising grounds to those who are not intimidated by the simple rithmatic of celestial navigation, or logic. Yeah, one of the things I love about Jimmy Cornell is that he started the rallies. They just suck up a mass of "personality free" boats (George Buehler's term) and keep 'em all together. I've thought a worthwhile avocation for a relaxed cruiser is to start a web site that would catalogue and track where all the rallies are at any given time. All the rest of us would have to do is look up where not to go when. donal| 20052|20026|2009-04-02 01:17:33|Aaron Williams|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|Thats the fun of it all. Your doing great Ben. We all need a laugh sometimes. --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Upcoming GPS service brownouts To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 7:52 PM On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 08:02:36PM -0700, Aaron Williams wrote: > I cant believe the Okopnik fell for it ! I wouldn't crow about it just yet. :) >I think the solar magnetic > field that may hit in 2012 will have a little effect though. You fell for *that????* :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20053|20026|2009-04-02 01:40:03|Donal Philby|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|-----Original Message----- >From: T & D Cain >The laws of physics and the communications subset must have changed (perhaps >only in the US?) I'm no electrical engineer, but I got my ham license at 13. It didn't make sense to me, but then it came from the military. When I went to radio school in the military I found I knew more than the teachers and had to correct them (which doesn't earn you a lot of points). I learned that a quarter wave whip antenna is called such because it radiates a quarter of the power a quarter of the way around each quarter. Which explains a lot. At least I learned to type and boosted morse reception to 30+wpm by typewriter. I'm still worried, though. I checked out WWV on the little Grundig and sure enough, it was fading in and out, probably with so many sailors wondering where they are. Wait til you see the budget to clean up the sunspots. donal| 20054|20026|2009-04-02 02:05:38|polaris041|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|Tell me if I'm wrong, but is'nt all this like saying if enough people go and stand in the sun, the sun will be drained of sufficient energy to cast shadows? Surely the transmissions from the satellite are beamed equally across it's target on earth. What do they do when things are getting crowded with tomany GPS, search for an empty antennae and swerve around to be caught by it. I don't think so; they just go on and dissipate into the surface of our great planet,adding a tiny little bit of energy to it. just my simple brain being simple. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Dale J. Robertson" wrote: > > April fools Hoax. A longstanding tradition! > Dale Robertson > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 08:45:33AM +0930, T & D Cain wrote: > > > >> The laws of physics and the communications subset must have changed (perhaps > >> only in the US?) > >> > > > > Not at all. Your understanding of those laws, however, clearly leaves > > much to be desired. I suggest you look up the term "coupling" and do a > > little reading... no, actually, a lot of reading. Then, come back and > > admit you're wrong. > > > > > >> There is no such power flow as described in this part, it is simply wrong. > >> > > > > I'll be sure to accept you as an authority really soon now. Just let me > > know when you've become the Royal Astronomer or something similar. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20055|20026|2009-04-02 03:09:59|Paul Wilson|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|I love it! I sent an earlier message but it never got through. This reminds me of polyestermites which were eating fiberglass boats in the 70's and causing osmosis blisters. One letter to a sailing magazine sent off a panic. Can we file this one with the Flying Spaghetti Monster? One of my favorite internet items. Ben, I think you originally sent the link, didn't you? A favorite of mine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster Cheers, Paul From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 7:04 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts Tell me if I'm wrong, but is'nt all this like saying if enough people go and stand in the sun, the sun will be drained of sufficient energy to cast shadows? Surely the transmissions from the satellite are beamed equally across it's target on earth. What do they do when things are getting crowded with tomany GPS, search for an empty antennae and swerve around to be caught by it. I don't think so; they just go on and dissipate into the surface of our great planet,adding a tiny little bit of energy to it. just my simple brain being simple. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Dale J. Robertson" wrote: > > April fools Hoax. A longstanding tradition! > Dale Robertson > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 08:45:33AM +0930, T & D Cain wrote: > > > >> The laws of physics and the communications subset must have changed (perhaps > >> only in the US?) > >> > > > > Not at all. Your understanding of those laws, however, clearly leaves > > much to be desired. I suggest you look up the term "coupling" and do a > > little reading... no, actually, a lot of reading. Then, come back and > > admit you're wrong. > > > > > >> There is no such power flow as described in this part, it is simply wrong. > >> > > > > I'll be sure to accept you as an authority really soon now. Just let me > > know when you've become the Royal Astronomer or something similar. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20056|20026|2009-04-02 09:18:24|audeojude|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|Ben, I think that the brownout article is a hoax, written by an idiot or disinformation. Where did you run across it? GPS is passive receive only, here are sites ranging from Universities, NOAA, Garmin, and the Air Force talking about how it works. Each satellite transmits a 50 watt signal that ground units receive. The ground units calculate your position after passively receiving 3 or more simultaneous signals from satellites. The more satellites it receives the more accurate the position. http://www.nasm.si.edu/gps/work.html http://www8.garmin.com/aboutGPS/ http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/kits/geodesy/geo09_gps.html http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=119| 20057|20026|2009-04-02 20:03:44|audeojude|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|hehehhe... forgot it was april fools day yesterday :) scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > Ben, I think that the brownout article is a hoax, written by an idiot or disinformation. Where did you run across it? GPS is passive receive only, here are sites ranging from Universities, NOAA, Garmin, and the Air Force talking about how it works. Each satellite transmits a 50 watt signal that ground units receive. The ground units calculate your position after passively receiving 3 or more simultaneous signals from satellites. The more satellites it receives the more accurate the position. > > http://www.nasm.si.edu/gps/work.html > http://www8.garmin.com/aboutGPS/ > http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/kits/geodesy/geo09_gps.html > http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=119 > | 20058|20026|2009-04-02 20:17:55|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|Easy on th FSM they got invited to the national confrence of churches last year. Besides the proper church wear is a Pirate outfit. I have there flag on my wall and it will be on my boat when done. Now if you conpaired it to the whole AGW hoax I would be right on board. Like I say you can find any side of subject on the internet. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I love it! I sent an earlier message but it never got through. This > reminds me of polyestermites which were eating fiberglass boats in the 70's > and causing osmosis blisters. One letter to a sailing magazine sent off a > panic. > > > > Can we file this one with the Flying Spaghetti Monster? One of my favorite > internet items. Ben, I think you originally sent the link, didn't you? A > favorite of mine. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster > > > > Cheers, Paul | 20059|20026|2009-04-02 21:05:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 01:17:42PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > > Ben, I think that the brownout article is a hoax, written by an idiot > or disinformation. Where did you run across it? RISKS, which is populated neither by idiots nor by people (normally) distributing misinformation - but it did indeed turn out to be an April Fools' joke, and I got caught by it. Oh well. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20060|20026|2009-04-03 00:09:03|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|Here is a little story from NASA about solar activaty that might be of more intrest. http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/01apr_deepsolarminimum.htm Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 01:17:42PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > > > > Ben, I think that the brownout article is a hoax, written by an idiot > > or disinformation. Where did you run across it? > > RISKS, which is populated neither by idiots nor by people (normally) > distributing misinformation - but it did indeed turn out to be an April > Fools' joke, and I got caught by it. Oh well. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20061|20026|2009-04-03 10:15:33|audeojude|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|cool article for some reason I had been thinking we were in a higher sunspot period and that was why my average cell phone quality sucked so bad.. lol.. now I have to just give in and accept that sprint just sucks!! scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Here is a little story from NASA about solar activaty that might be of more intrest. > http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/01apr_deepsolarminimum.htm > > Jon | 20062|19948|2009-04-03 13:36:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Largest Brent Boat?|On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 10:38:18PM -0600, Barney wrote: > I guess displacement, layout, and rig overview if you don't mind. I'd > hate to impose on your generosity until some basics are understood - > then I'll impose like crazy. So, first thing to note: "Ulysses" is not a Swain boat (I don't know if you were assuming that, but I want to make that clear from the start.) That being said: it's a 15T displacement, center-cockpit ketch; 34' LOA, 32' LOD, 11' beam, 5'6" draft. There are a couple of pics here from a few years ago, before we sandblasted, replated, and painted her as well as adding a pilothouse. At anchor http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi/Ulysses/1/large Standing up on her (wide) keel http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi/Ulysses/9/large In a sling - stern view http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi/Ulysses/11/large In a sling - front view http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi/Ulysses/12/large -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20063|20063|2009-04-03 18:47:09|mr_lugnuts_2007|Stainless to carbon steel welding|I'm concerned about welding stainless to carbon and I found this on the web: "Apart from the common stainless contamination that results during material forming / handling, a very common cause of corrosion results from the use of grinding wheels contaminated with steel particles or steel wire brushes. When lifting parts with a fork lift, use none steel components that separate the steel forks from the stainless. When you strap those stainless parts, place wood between the bands and the stainless. With stainless weld operations using carbon steel fixtures, ensure no carbon steel part is within 25 mm of the welds. If fixture parts are within close proximity of the welds replace the carbon steels components with stainless, copper or aluminum" See more at:www.weldreality.com/stainlesswelddata.htm Has anyone had problems where they welded stainless to carbon? How about galvanic drift? Painting the stainless and carbon would help w/ corrosion issues but are the potentials going to be a problem?Thx.| 20064|20064|2009-04-04 11:24:57|samsung_mwe@yahoo.com|Get paid up to $250 per hour Taking Surveys At Home! Your about t|Get paid up to $250 per hour Taking Surveys At Home! Your about to discover the perfect job! You can set the hours and work as much or as little as you like. You decide when you want to work leaving you in total control, and the best part about it is that you can get paid up to $250 per hour. Click here : http://mox-to-make-money.blogspot.com/2009/03/2.html| 20065|20026|2009-04-04 11:43:55|ed_lithgow|Re: Upcoming GPS service brownouts|Dont understand. I thought GPS Recievers were passive. How can the number of them be subject to (or generate) a bandwidth limitation? I'd say this was a hoax, given the date, except it isn't silly or amusing enough --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > That would drastically reduce the number of rich yuppies crowding the anchorages around the world, and leave the cruising grounds to those who are not intimidated by the simple rithmatic of celestial navigation, or logic. > Have to add and subtract to figure out where to you are? Scary! > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > Today may be April 1st (happy birthday to me, by the way), but this > > isn't much of a joke. Hope you folks are all brushed up on your sextant > > skills... > > > > ------ From the RISKS Digest ----------------------------------------------- > > > > Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:59:21 -0700 > > From: Mike Tashker > > Subject: GPS Outages Feared > > > > In a press conference today (1 April 2009), a spokesman for the U.S. Air > > Force GPS Wing has confirmed fears that a worldwide outage of GPS service is > > likely. The current system may reach peak capacity before the launch of the > > next-generation Global Positioning System Space Segment satellites, known as > > GPS Block III, in 2014. > > > > "The huge proliferation of civilian hand-held, cellphone, and vehicle-based > > GPS equipment has taxed available bandwidth on the existing satellite > > constellation beyond our expectations," said Major Stan Ford Parkinson. "We > > expect that the transceivers in the Block III satellites will handle the > > load through 2040. But there's a likelihood of a gap -- a rolling worldwide > > GPS 'brown-out' -- between now and the first launches." > > > > The Air Force is planning a competitive procurement to study the potentially > > catastrophic effects on transportation and other industries that could occur > > as early as 2011. This appears to be a good use of stimulus funds, > > especially if it stimulates some more far-sighted thinking. > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 20066|20063|2009-04-04 16:30:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding|I have never had any problem with SS to carbon steel either above or below the waterline. If you use the right rods and paint the joints it's fine. I used 316L rods on both 304 and 316 SS but the numbers might have changed now. Grinding dust from carbon steel can make a real mess of stainless. Cover and clean well afterwards or you will have to polish the SS to get the rust off. Cheers, Paul I'm concerned about welding stainless to carbon and I found this on the web: "Apart from the common stainless contamination that results during material forming / handling, a very common cause of corrosion results from the use of grinding wheels contaminated with steel particles or steel wire brushes. When lifting parts with a fork lift, use none steel components that separate the steel forks from the stainless. When you strap those stainless parts, place wood between the bands and the stainless. With stainless weld operations using carbon steel fixtures, ensure no carbon steel part is within 25 mm of the welds. If fixture parts are within close proximity of the welds replace the carbon steels components with stainless, copper or aluminum" See more at:www.weldreality.com/stainlesswelddata.htm Has anyone had problems where they welded stainless to carbon? How about galvanic drift? Painting the stainless and carbon would help w/ corrosion issues but are the potentials going to be a problem?Thx. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20067|20063|2009-04-04 17:03:49|Aaron Williams|Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding|Lugnuts If you were building a nuke plant then you would be required to follow all of the directions given in order to prevent cross contamination of the SS. If you need to weld bond the two together Carbon Steel and Stainless then the procedure would probably call for a 309/309L grade electrode.       Since we are only building boats for our selves most of the contamination issues are only visual not structural problems. You should still join the carbon to stainless with a 309 grade electrode. Most people use what the have available ether 308 or 316 electrodes but test have proven 309 is the best choice. There is a lot of info on this subject in maybe about 1 year ago. Aaron --- On Fri, 4/3/09, mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: From: mr_lugnuts_2007 Subject: [origamiboats] Stainless to carbon steel welding To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 2:46 PM I'm concerned about welding stainless to carbon and I found this on the web: "Apart from the common stainless contamination that results during material forming / handling, a very common cause of corrosion results from the use of grinding wheels contaminated with steel particles or steel wire brushes. When lifting parts with a fork lift, use none steel components that separate the steel forks from the stainless. When you strap those stainless parts, place wood between the bands and the stainless. With stainless weld operations using carbon steel fixtures, ensure no carbon steel part is within 25 mm of the welds. If fixture parts are within close proximity of the welds replace the carbon steels components with stainless, copper or aluminum" See more at:www.weldreality. com/stainlesswel ddata.htm Has anyone had problems where they welded stainless to carbon? How about galvanic drift? Painting the stainless and carbon would help w/ corrosion issues but are the potentials going to be a problem?Thx. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20068|20063|2009-04-04 17:49:46|polaris041|Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding|I go with the 309L rods; The best way to remove carbon steel contaminants from your 304-316 stainless is to use 'Weld-guard' 'stainless steel pickling Gel'; a product of BOC in my locality. But be warned it contains Hydrofluoric acid, the grandmother of all acids (dissolves glass/and human flesh with relish) Also costs an arm and a leg. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I have never had any problem with SS to carbon steel either above or below > the waterline. If you use the right rods and paint the joints it's fine. I > used 316L rods on both 304 and 316 SS but the numbers might have changed > now. Grinding dust from carbon steel can make a real mess of stainless. > Cover and clean well afterwards or you will have to polish the SS to get the > rust off. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > I'm concerned about welding stainless to carbon and I found this on the web: > "Apart from the common stainless contamination that results during material > forming / handling, a very common cause of corrosion results from the use of > grinding wheels contaminated with steel particles or steel wire brushes. | 20069|19991|2009-04-04 20:06:57|ed_lithgow|Re: Head and shower system|Get a bucket big enough to stand in comfortably, put the clothes you have been wearing in it and scald them with kettle water, (dont scald the elastic on boxer shorts etc) then add cold water to comfort. Trample the clothes and use them to sluice and soap yourself, and as washing and drying cloths (a wrung-out teashirt makes a better towel than a towel does, due to surface tension). If you want a rinse you'll need something like a plastic jerrican with a wide mouth to discard the water into, otherwise you could use a bucket with a lid. You could use your sprayer for the rinse, (you and the clothes) if you want and have one. The more thorough washing my feet get with this procedure seems to have cleared up my athletes foot. Any gradual build up of soap residue/grease/etc in the clothes can be addressed by a periodic "traditional" wash, perhaps when you have access to a machine, but I don't find this to be a problem. It may be relevant that I mostly wear synthetic, quick drying textiles, and the local climate (Taiwan), though humid, seems to favor quick drying. Of course you'll find it difficult to persuade a woman to use this technique, and it might be dangerous to try. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > The floor of my head is waterproof - epoxy and paint. I hang a cheap garden pressure sprayer on a hook in the head...heat some water in your kettle, pour into the sprayer, add cold water to comfort and then enjoy. The water sponges up easily on the floor, no need for a drain. You are showered and your head walls and floor are cleaned. > ...Gary > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > > To All > > > > Does anyone have any advice on how they have installed an interior shower. I am a long way from doing so but seams like a good time to ask. > > For me up north its almost always to cold for an outdoor shower. > > > > Aaron in Alaska > > > | 20070|20063|2009-04-05 04:39:22|mauro gonzaga|Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding|Confirm. Use 309 SS which is richer in Cr & Ni than the 304 or 316. Think about melting of the parent metal (carbon steel) and the weld metal (18/8 Cr/Ni of the 304 SS) Cromium diluted with carbon steel will have a composition with little Cr as 5% which is self hardening and brittle. So to avoid cracks DO NOT weld SS to CS with 304 or 316 SS  Mauro --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Aaron Williams wrote: From: Aaron Williams Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stainless to carbon steel welding To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 11:03 PM Lugnuts If you were building a nuke plant then you would be required to follow all of the directions given in order to prevent cross contamination of the SS. If you need to weld bond the two together Carbon Steel and Stainless then the procedure would probably call for a 309/309L grade electrode.       Since we are only building boats for our selves most of the contamination issues are only visual not structural problems. You should still join the carbon to stainless with a 309 grade electrode. Most people use what the have available ether 308 or 316 electrodes but test have proven 309 is the best choice. There is a lot of info on this subject in maybe about 1 year ago. Aaron --- On Fri, 4/3/09, mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: From: mr_lugnuts_2007 Subject: [origamiboats] Stainless to carbon steel welding To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 2:46 PM I'm concerned about welding stainless to carbon and I found this on the web: "Apart from the common stainless contamination that results during material forming / handling, a very common cause of corrosion results from the use of grinding wheels contaminated with steel particles or steel wire brushes. When lifting parts with a fork lift, use none steel components that separate the steel forks from the stainless. When you strap those stainless parts, place wood between the bands and the stainless. With stainless weld operations using carbon steel fixtures, ensure no carbon steel part is within 25 mm of the welds. If fixture parts are within close proximity of the welds replace the carbon steels components with stainless, copper or aluminum" See more at:www.weldreality. com/stainlesswel ddata.htm Has anyone had problems where they welded stainless to carbon? How about galvanic drift? Painting the stainless and carbon would help w/ corrosion issues but are the potentials going to be a problem?Thx. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20071|22|2009-04-05 09:23:10|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./239SAPR-NOV17-08.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Sail Plan for the Imagiro 385 You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./239SAPR-NOV17-08.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20072|20063|2009-04-05 16:41:33|Paul Wilson|Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding|I can't confirm since I have never had any cracks using the 316 rods. 309 may indeed be better but 316 for me has never been a problem. When I built my boat, the rod recommended to me was 316. Personally, I wouldn't worry about using 316 rods. Cheers, Paul Confirm. Use 309 SS which is richer in Cr & Ni than the 304 or 316. Think about melting of the parent metal (carbon steel) and the weld metal (18/8 Cr/Ni of the 304 SS) Cromium diluted with carbon steel will have a composition with little Cr as 5% which is self hardening and brittle. So to avoid cracks DO NOT weld SS to CS with 304 or 316 SS Mauro [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20073|19991|2009-04-05 17:48:44|brentswain38|Re: Head and shower system|Sleg lumber in Sidney has it . Offcuts are cheap or free. Stugg than is molded in smaller sizes has fewer and smaller airbubbles in it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Home depot in town didn't have any never did carry it (maybe not in canada?) they did have the expensive plastic decking however (why one wouldn't buy cedar for cheaper i'll never know) > I left the finished surface on the widow sill face > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 11:52:14PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > Yeah the alt wood wasn't very cheap either (for recycled plastic) > > > barely less than wood, actually you could have gotten low grade lumber > > > for cheaper I'm still pretty disgusted at myself for buying plastic at > > > such prices. The stuff is very hard to work with, you can't bend it > > > really at all > > > > It's certainly not as flexible as wood, I agree. On the other hand, > > you'll never get a splinter. :) > > > > > - just shatters maybe if you heated it in an oven it > > > would bend alright and it's full of air holes. I had a hell of a time > > > finding it at all, and could only get 4x4s which i ripped into 2x2s > > > and 2x4s > > > > Yikes. I don't think it's really intended to be used like that - not > > that it's a problem, but one of the big advantages of the stuff is its > > surface finish. Ripping it, of course, blows that away. > > > > > for the frames and the outside edge of the frames (the inside > > > of the 4x4) is pierced with holes like an aero bar but at least the > > > foam will cover up that. And i should never have a problem of rust, > > > mold or pealling paint with them. If any body ever uses it try to get > > > 2x2s as they would have less holes. > > > > Home Depot has it in pretty much every size you could want; I suspect > > it'll become more popular and more available elsewhere soon. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 20074|20074|2009-04-05 18:00:22|brentswain38|More common screwups|Some people with single keel 36 footers have put the top of the main water tank at the hull keel joint , reducing the capacity of the tank by up to 60%. The space above it is a relatively useless space. The tank top should be 4 ft wide at the widest point, ending up an inch or two below the floor. When one gets aove the hull keel joint and the width of the tank increases rapidly the capacity per inch of height increases drastically. While it is nice to have a reliable watermaker, I only feel secure with enough water in the tank to complete the voyage, rather than the assumption the watermaker will never break down, however reliable it may have proven so far. Only people with offshore experience will appreciate how much more peace of mind one gets at sea from having enough water in the tank, already made. brent| 20075|20075|2009-04-05 20:06:25|Gary Prebble|GPSNavX|Software and charting for Mac A friend has this I sail with here in BC. Software and charts less than $200. Incredibly good and priced right...if you have a Mac. Anyone know of a similar product for PC. Thanks Gary| 20076|20075|2009-04-05 21:35:24|Donal Philby|Re: GPSNavX|-----Original Message----- >From: Gary Prebble >Sent: Apr 5, 2009 5:06 PM >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] GPSNavX > >Software and charting for Mac > >A friend has this I sail with here in BC. Software and charts less than $200. Incredibly good and priced right...if you have a Mac. > >Anyone know of a similar product for PC. Many, but check out Fugawa. I'm a Mac user and MacENC is a wonderful program which I've previewed. Most of the EMC driven programs, however, are great for North America, but things really get complicated when you try to use them offshore. You can check out chartworld.com for ENCs that will work, but they are really made for commercial applications such as ships. The C-maps and Navionics (who use ENC for their own, make it impossible to use without proprietary issues that invalidate the inexpensive nature of ENCs, at least where they are given away (US) or reasonably priced (Canada). The ENC equivalents from Chartworld are only good for one year by contract and security code (self destructing, I believe) and very much more money also. It is a frustration for me. I'd like a small (waterproof) chart plotter topside and be able to use the Mac below, but that just isn't practical. But with a windows machine it is pretty easy, but only with the proprietary cards. I've talked to several technicians and they say the walls against "free and easy" are closing in. Anyway, I've never sailed with a chartplotter, so paper charts are pretty comfortable, though the cost, too, for them has gotten crazy for any extended voyage. Bellingham is an Option. donal| 20077|20063|2009-04-06 15:19:17|mauro gonzaga|Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding|Cracks are not sure but possible using 316 type electrodes. It depends also to the stress applied. Ask to any welding consumables manufacturer or consult a cathalogue. In general, consult always manufacturer's cathalogue before using any welding consumable: they are a mine of useful information and instructions. mauro --- On Sun, 4/5/09, Paul Wilson wrote: From: Paul Wilson Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stainless to carbon steel welding To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 10:39 PM I can't confirm since I have never had any cracks using the 316 rods. 309 may indeed be better but 316 for me has never been a problem. When I built my boat, the rod recommended to me was 316. Personally, I wouldn't worry about using 316 rods. Cheers, Paul Confirm. Use 309 SS which is richer in Cr & Ni than the 304 or 316. Think about melting of the parent metal (carbon steel) and the weld metal (18/8 Cr/Ni of the 304 SS) Cromium diluted with carbon steel will have a composition with little Cr as 5% which is self hardening and brittle. So to avoid cracks DO NOT weld SS to CS with 304 or 316 SS Mauro [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20078|20063|2009-04-07 08:09:16|sae140|Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding|This sounds like smoke and mirrors to me ! Ok - so metals migrate in a weld pool, but regardless of whether you start with a 24% or a 12% Cr concentration, within the weld there will always exist a Max Cr contour, a 0% Cr contour, and a 5% contour somewhere inbetween 'em - surely ? I don't see how it's possible to ever avoid this ... Anyway, FWIW, I've been using a stock of 2205 (duplex) rods for several years to weld mild to stainless without a single crack ever having occurred, even on stressed joints. These rods are certainly NOT recommended for this purpose, but I think it's pretty daft to select an exact type of rod when I can't be 100% sure about what grade of stainless I've bought from the scrap-yard. 2205 happens to have a high Cr content and excellent choride-pitting resistance, but the reason I bought 'em is that they were ex offshore oil rig (out-of-date) and as cheap as chips. I cannot see any case for using highly specialised electrodes when just building a boat or boat trailer. If you're really worried about cracking due to Cr dilution, try the Big Hammer test. If it passes that, sleep easy. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Cracks are not sure but possible using 316 type electrodes. It depends also to the stress applied. Ask to any welding consumables manufacturer or consult a cathalogue. In general, consult always manufacturer's cathalogue before using any welding consumable: they are a mine of useful information and instructions. > mauro > > --- On Sun, 4/5/09, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stainless to carbon steel welding > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 10:39 PM > > > > > > > I can't confirm since I have never had any cracks using the 316 rods. 309 > may indeed be better but 316 for me has never been a problem. When I > built my boat, the rod recommended to me was 316. Personally, I wouldn't > worry about using 316 rods. > > Cheers, Paul > > Confirm. Use 309 SS which is richer in Cr & Ni than the 304 or 316. Think > about melting of the parent metal (carbon steel) and the weld metal (18/8 > Cr/Ni of the 304 SS) Cromium diluted with carbon steel will have a > composition with little Cr as 5% which is self hardening and brittle. So to > avoid cracks DO NOT weld SS to CS with 304 or 316 SS > Mauro > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20079|20079|2009-04-07 12:18:34|Donal Philby|Light vs Heavy mast discussion|The Morgan's Cloud site is a must for high latitude sailors or wannabes. Lots of discussions of many topics. And here is a recent one, of a three part on re-masting with carbon fiber and the consequences--to the bank account, sailing ability and comfort at sea: http://morganscloud.com/aacblog/2009/04/refit-tale-5-carbon-fiber-mast-bottom.html donal| 20080|20063|2009-04-07 12:47:13|mauro gonzaga|Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding|OK Colin, I confess. I am Authorized Inspector for boiler and pressure vessel, i did this job for all my working life (....veeery long, alas). Everyone should put his experience and knowledge available to everybody in this forum. You put your experience, I appreciate its validity. For budget reasons it may be worth to follow your experience in non vital issues. I put my experience and knowledge in welding steel and alloys. I appreciate that pressure vessels may be mass destruction weapons and there is no room to play or make experiments. So I may seem to you somehow "narrow minded". Consider welding like self curing: if you want to take a medicine without the prescription of a doctor at least read the instruction. If you want to weld and you do not ask advice to a welding engineer at least read the instructions in the cathalogue. Don't you think it is a valuable advice?  However partecipants to this forum may follow your arguments, if in the same situation. I strongly recommend do not play with quality of material and welding with hull plating. Mind there is no better material than another: there is only material more suitable to a certain service, than others. This applies to all material: common steel and the extraordinary duplex steel and includes welding material. You have had no bad experience as consequence of your welding (wrong, let me say), well, I served in Navy and at that time (almost 50 years ago), I knew old divers who did not follow compensation tables because they "never had problems". Were they right? To complete the scenario: duplex (austenitic/ferritic lattice) steels are more difficult to treat than austenitic. They were developed for offshore use because of their higher resistance to stress (lighter structure, as consequence) and good resistance in sea water environement, but a lot of studies were developed on their welding, so, again, don't use them for vital parts unless you follow recommendations of a specialist, but not a skilled welder, I mean a welding expert. Fair wind and sympathy from Mauro   --- On Tue, 4/7/09, sae140 wrote: From: sae140 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 2:09 PM This sounds like smoke and mirrors to me ! Ok - so metals migrate in a weld pool, but regardless of whether you start with a 24% or a 12% Cr concentration, within the weld there will always exist a Max Cr contour, a 0% Cr contour, and a 5% contour somewhere inbetween 'em - surely ? I don't see how it's possible to ever avoid this ... Anyway, FWIW, I've been using a stock of 2205 (duplex) rods for several years to weld mild to stainless without a single crack ever having occurred, even on stressed joints. These rods are certainly NOT recommended for this purpose, but I think it's pretty daft to select an exact type of rod when I can't be 100% sure about what grade of stainless I've bought from the scrap-yard. 2205 happens to have a high Cr content and excellent choride-pitting resistance, but the reason I bought 'em is that they were ex offshore oil rig (out-of-date) and as cheap as chips. I cannot see any case for using highly specialised electrodes when just building a boat or boat trailer. If you're really worried about cracking due to Cr dilution, try the Big Hammer test. If it passes that, sleep easy. Colin --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Cracks are not sure but possible using 316 type electrodes. It depends also to the stress applied. Ask to any welding consumables manufacturer or consult a cathalogue. In general, consult always manufacturer' s cathalogue before using any welding consumable: they are a mine of useful information and instructions. > mauro > > --- On Sun, 4/5/09, Paul Wilson wrote: > > From: Paul Wilson > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stainless to carbon steel welding > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 10:39 PM > > > > > > > I can't confirm since I have never had any cracks using the 316 rods. 309 > may indeed be better but 316 for me has never been a problem. When I > built my boat, the rod recommended to me was 316. Personally, I wouldn't > worry about using 316 rods. > > Cheers, Paul > > Confirm. Use 309 SS which is richer in Cr & Ni than the 304 or 316. Think > about melting of the parent metal (carbon steel) and the weld metal (18/8 > Cr/Ni of the 304 SS) Cromium diluted with carbon steel will have a > composition with little Cr as 5% which is self hardening and brittle. So to > avoid cracks DO NOT weld SS to CS with 304 or 316 SS > Mauro > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20081|20081|2009-04-07 15:09:25|tomjlee2000|Amigos: Re:Idefix iv|Anyone know or communicate with IDEFIX IV these days? Any response appreciated. K I S| 20082|20063|2009-04-07 18:32:54|peter_d_wiley|Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding|Mauro, I agree with you. But then I spent a lot of my life in heavy offshore marine research vessels. Doing things as Colin suggests would have gotten equipment instantly condemned. In fact I would have refused to accept it aboard one of my vessels, I've seen people nearly killed when gear breaks under load. For non-critical stuff, yes, I do as Colin does. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > OK Colin, I confess. I am Authorized Inspector for boiler and pressure vessel, i did this job for all my working life (....veeery long, alas). Everyone should put his experience and knowledge available to everybody in this forum. You put your experience, I appreciate its validity. For budget reasons it may be worth to follow your experience in non vital issues. I put my experience and knowledge in welding steel and alloys. I appreciate that pressure vessels may be mass destruction weapons and there is no room to play or make experiments. So I may seem to you somehow "narrow minded". Consider welding like self curing: if you want to take a medicine without the prescription of a doctor at least read the instruction. If you want to weld and you do not ask advice to a welding engineer at least read the instructions in the cathalogue. Don't you think it is a valuable advice?  However partecipants to this forum may follow your arguments, if in the > same situation. I strongly recommend do not play with quality of material and welding with hull plating. Mind there is no better material than another: there is only material more suitable to a certain service, than others. This applies to all material: common steel and the extraordinary duplex steel and includes welding material. You have had no bad experience as consequence of your welding (wrong, let me say), well, I served in Navy and at that time (almost 50 years ago), I knew old divers who did not follow compensation tables because they "never had problems". Were they right? > To complete the scenario: duplex (austenitic/ferritic lattice) steels are more difficult to treat than austenitic. They were developed for offshore use because of their higher resistance to stress (lighter structure, as consequence) and good resistance in sea water environement, but a lot of studies were developed on their welding, so, again, don't use them for vital parts unless you follow recommendations of a specialist, but not a skilled welder, I mean a welding expert. > Fair wind and sympathy from Mauro >   > > --- On Tue, 4/7/09, sae140 wrote: > > From: sae140 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 2:09 PM > > > > > > > This sounds like smoke and mirrors to me ! Ok - so metals migrate in a weld pool, but regardless of whether you start with a 24% or a 12% Cr concentration, within the weld there will always exist a Max Cr contour, a 0% Cr contour, and a 5% contour somewhere inbetween 'em - surely ? I don't see how it's possible to ever avoid this ... > > Anyway, FWIW, I've been using a stock of 2205 (duplex) rods for several years to weld mild to stainless without a single crack ever having occurred, even on stressed joints. > These rods are certainly NOT recommended for this purpose, but I think it's pretty daft to select an exact type of rod when I can't be 100% sure about what grade of stainless I've bought from the scrap-yard. > 2205 happens to have a high Cr content and excellent choride-pitting resistance, but the reason I bought 'em is that they were ex offshore oil rig (out-of-date) and as cheap as chips. > I cannot see any case for using highly specialised electrodes when just building a boat or boat trailer. If you're really worried about cracking due to Cr dilution, try the Big Hammer test. If it passes that, sleep easy. Colin > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > Cracks are not sure but possible using 316 type electrodes. It depends also to the stress applied. Ask to any welding consumables manufacturer or consult a cathalogue. In general, consult always manufacturer' s cathalogue before using any welding consumable: they are a mine of useful information and instructions. > > mauro > > > > --- On Sun, 4/5/09, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > From: Paul Wilson > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stainless to carbon steel welding > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 10:39 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't confirm since I have never had any cracks using the 316 rods. 309 > > may indeed be better but 316 for me has never been a problem. When I > > built my boat, the rod recommended to me was 316. Personally, I wouldn't > > worry about using 316 rods. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > Confirm. Use 309 SS which is richer in Cr & Ni than the 304 or 316. Think > > about melting of the parent metal (carbon steel) and the weld metal (18/8 > > Cr/Ni of the 304 SS) Cromium diluted with carbon steel will have a > > composition with little Cr as 5% which is self hardening and brittle. So to > > avoid cracks DO NOT weld SS to CS with 304 or 316 SS > > Mauro > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20083|20083|2009-04-07 18:40:53|peter_d_wiley|Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|I have an opportunity to buy a quantity of 3.5mm 3CR12 (look it up if you don't know what it is, it's a low carbon Cr/Ni alloy used in mining etc). The cost to me is 2X the cost of hot rolled mild steel plate. I have a fair stock of E309 rods so the weld joint is OK. The 3CR12 has a slightly rough finish, is not polished etc. If I were to use it, I wouldn't plan on painting it except for non-skid areas and maybe not even there, use stick-on stuff. Weldability is on a par with mild steel unlike 316L so distortion issues no worse than mild steel if you have a modicum of sense. Locally, blasting & priming plate commercially adds $32/m2 to the price and I can get my mild steel for $34/m2, so the 3CR12 price is about equivalent to the blasted & primed mild steel. All fittings would need to be s/steel welded to the deck or bolted to welded acorn nuts as per Brent's idea but I was going to do that anyway. Any non-stainless fittings will need HDPE or equivalent between them and the stainless to stop galvanic couples, but I'm prepared for that. Can anyone think of good reasons not to do it? Regards, Peter| 20084|20083|2009-04-07 20:04:27|David Frantz|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|Stainless or not I can't imagine not painting it or in some way protecting the surface. The reverse is true from the standpoint of the sailor as a deck really needs to be slip resistant. Bare metal surfaces can be extremely slick. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 7, 2009, at 6:40 PM, peter_d_wiley wrote: > I have an opportunity to buy a quantity of 3.5mm 3CR12 (look it up > if you don't know what it is, it's a low carbon Cr/Ni alloy used in > mining etc). The cost to me is 2X the cost of hot rolled mild steel > plate. > > I have a fair stock of E309 rods so the weld joint is OK. > > The 3CR12 has a slightly rough finish, is not polished etc. If I > were to use it, I wouldn't plan on painting it except for non-skid > areas and maybe not even there, use stick-on stuff. > > Weldability is on a par with mild steel unlike 316L so distortion > issues no worse than mild steel if you have a modicum of sense. > > Locally, blasting & priming plate commercially adds $32/m2 to the > price and I can get my mild steel for $34/m2, so the 3CR12 price is > about equivalent to the blasted & primed mild steel. > > All fittings would need to be s/steel welded to the deck or bolted > to welded acorn nuts as per Brent's idea but I was going to do that > anyway. Any non-stainless fittings will need HDPE or equivalent > between them and the stainless to stop galvanic couples, but I'm > prepared for that. > > Can anyone think of good reasons not to do it? > > Regards, Peter > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20085|20083|2009-04-07 21:19:52|Tom Mann|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|I would emagine without a light color of paint it would get way to hot in the direct sun other than that I cant see any reason not to use it. Myself I think I would save the 1X and use mild steel. Tom On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 3:40 PM, peter_d_wiley wrote: > I have an opportunity to buy a quantity of 3.5mm 3CR12 (look it up if you > don't know what it is, it's a low carbon Cr/Ni alloy used in mining etc). > The cost to me is 2X the cost of hot rolled mild steel plate. > > I have a fair stock of E309 rods so the weld joint is OK. > > The 3CR12 has a slightly rough finish, is not polished etc. If I were to > use it, I wouldn't plan on painting it except for non-skid areas and maybe > not even there, use stick-on stuff. > > Weldability is on a par with mild steel unlike 316L so distortion issues no > worse than mild steel if you have a modicum of sense. > > Locally, blasting & priming plate commercially adds $32/m2 to the price and > I can get my mild steel for $34/m2, so the 3CR12 price is about equivalent > to the blasted & primed mild steel. > > All fittings would need to be s/steel welded to the deck or bolted to > welded acorn nuts as per Brent's idea but I was going to do that anyway. Any > non-stainless fittings will need HDPE or equivalent between them and the > stainless to stop galvanic couples, but I'm prepared for that. > > Can anyone think of good reasons not to do it? > > Regards, Peter > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20086|20083|2009-04-07 21:56:53|polaris041|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|Before you get too excitted about the acorn nut idea, go and buy one. Now place something through the thread and give a gentle tap. Hey presto; the dome pops off. What do we have? A hole in the boat. If you find a source where the nut and dome are machined from one peice of stock please let me know. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: . > > All fittings would need to be s/steel welded to the deck or bolted to welded acorn nuts as per Brent's idea but I was going to do that anyway. > > Regards, Peter | 20087|20083|2009-04-07 22:05:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 10:40:42PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > I have an opportunity to buy a quantity of 3.5mm 3CR12 (look it up if > you don't know what it is, it's a low carbon Cr/Ni alloy used in > mining etc). The cost to me is 2X the cost of hot rolled mild steel > plate. > > I have a fair stock of E309 rods so the weld joint is OK. > > The 3CR12 has a slightly rough finish, is not polished etc. If I were > to use it, I wouldn't plan on painting it except for non-skid areas > and maybe not even there, use stick-on stuff. > > Weldability is on a par with mild steel unlike 316L so distortion > issues no worse than mild steel if you have a modicum of sense. > > Locally, blasting & priming plate commercially adds $32/m2 to the > price and I can get my mild steel for $34/m2, so the 3CR12 price is > about equivalent to the blasted & primed mild steel. > > All fittings would need to be s/steel welded to the deck or bolted to > welded acorn nuts as per Brent's idea but I was going to do that > anyway. Any non-stainless fittings will need HDPE or equivalent > between them and the stainless to stop galvanic couples, but I'm > prepared for that. > > Can anyone think of good reasons not to do it? If you get into a collision or take damage in some other way, will you be able to get material to replace the damaged pieces? Will you be able to get this stuff elsewhere if you decide to make improvements while cruising? I'd have a really good think about availability in hard-to-reach cruising areas. You might be able to take care of some of that by cutting up a bunch of it into pieces small enough to use for ballast (e.g., plates that can be stacked in your keel, maybe?), but you _will_ be giving away one of the advantages of having a steel boat. Other than that one consideration, it sounds like a great labor- and maintenance-saver. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20088|20083|2009-04-07 22:12:50|Aaron Williams|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|Peter That is an interesting concept. Have you weld any of this stuff yourself ? Here is what I would start looking at, and I am sure you have been looking it already. 3.5 mm = .1377 inches witch is more than the thickness of .125 or 1/8" so you would be adding 1/3 again the weight to the deck. How well will this 3Cr12  will hold up to chloride and fatigue cracking. http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/STP/PAGES/STP24083S.htm Aaron On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 3:40 PM, peter_d_wiley wrote: > I have an opportunity to buy a quantity of 3.5mm 3CR12 (look it up if you > don't know what it is, it's a low carbon Cr/Ni alloy used in mining etc). > The cost to me is 2X the cost of hot rolled mild steel plate. > > I have a fair stock of E309 rods so the weld joint is OK. > > The 3CR12 has a slightly rough finish, is not polished etc. If I were to > use it, I wouldn't plan on painting it except for non-skid areas and maybe > not even there, use stick-on stuff. > > Weldability is on a par with mild steel unlike 316L so distortion issues no > worse than mild steel if you have a modicum of sense. > > Locally, blasting & priming plate commercially adds $32/m2 to the price and > I can get my mild steel for $34/m2, so the 3CR12 price is about equivalent > to the blasted & primed mild steel. > > All fittings would need to be s/steel welded to the deck or bolted to > welded acorn nuts as per Brent's idea but I was going to do that anyway. Any > non-stainless fittings will need HDPE or equivalent between them and the > stainless to stop galvanic couples, but I'm prepared for that. > > Can anyone think of good reasons not to do it? > > Regards, Peter > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20089|20081|2009-04-07 22:42:57|Carl Anderson|Re: Amigos: Re:Idefix iv|We'd like to know, too... MOM tomjlee2000 wrote: > > > > > Anyone know or communicate with IDEFIX IV these days? > > Any response appreciated. > > K I S > > | 20090|20090|2009-04-08 00:51:22|jhlean@yahoo.com|(no subject)|Hmmm... Can't agree with morning cloud's choice... there is a good reason for a heavier mast... its inertia helps prevent a roll over in heavy seas. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20091|20083|2009-04-08 05:02:48|peter_d_wiley|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|Haven't welded any myself but I'm definitely buying one sheet to experiment with. I have other uses for it. I've welded stainless in the past which is why I hate it in sheet form. Other concerns: Slippery deck. Agreed, but glued on non-skid would deal with that. A lot of aluminum boats locally aren't painted. In fact I had the paint soda-blasted off of my 30' aluminum workboats because it was a PITA, back when I was managing a marine science group. Glare. Yeah, I thought of this one too. Don't have a good answer. It's a dull silver finish, might not be too bad, might be unbearable, in which case you'd need to paint, and that could be tricky. Negates the benefit of the s/steel the moment you have to paint it anyway. Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick welder, I have a MIG spool gun that works well with flux cored wire off of a 24V power supply. Not going to carry a bottle of argon with me tho. In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. Extra cost. The plate is 2X mild steel but I'd need to either rent & blast/paint the deck myself or hire it done. The cost to get it done locally is $32/m2 for blast & prime coat so it's a wash up front, possible savings down the track if you never had to paint. I HATE sand blasting. Before anyone mentions pre-primed or pickled & oiled plate, it's not obtainable at any price or in the case of the P&O, obtainable only in 2400 x 1200 mm sheets. Too small. Weight. Not an issue, I can also get 3CR12 in 3mm for one thing and the hull is designed for a 4mm deck weight anyway. Acorn nuts. I'll have to try bashing one when I get home, I've got at least 100 in 12mm and 50 in 16mm plus a selection in 6, 8 & 10mm. Be interesting if the top comes out because the 12mm & 16mm ones looked like a solid forging to me. Stress cracking. I wasn't planning on using it below the WL so it wouldn't be in a chlorine environment. Welded to 316 pipe on the bulwarks, I doubt there's going to be a lot of flexing there anyway. Definitely a consideration tho. I'm tempted but the risk factors are a bit high due to the unknowns and I hate painting stainless, the paint never sticks well. It'd be safer to go with the mild steel and give it a couple solid coats of cold galvanizing then paint I think. Since nobody here thinks it's an unqualified wonderful idea to use the 3CR12, and all of you have one or more reservations, I think I'll drop it. Less hassle anyway, I only need to buy 4mm mild steel plate and the drops can be used anywhere. I'm going to use s/steel for bitts etc anyway, I already have a pile of s/steel pipe, bar & flats. Local steel boat for sale supposedly in good condition for $40K AUD. I need to go and take a look because that's my estimate of cost to build one (not the hull, the whole thing ready to launch doing it myself) and I don't really want to spend a year or more building if I can buy. Otherwise, I've got the steel lined up and will be back home from my latest working expedition in another 10 days. If I'm going to start at all, it'll be by May. If not, that's it. Time to move on. Incidentally on my current steel prices the plate and framing comes to $8,600 AUD including a 200 x 40mm keel shoe - I got lucky with that one so I can't really count it. 316 Sched 40 for 5 lengths of 32NB and 5 lengths of 25NB comes to over $2200 AUD EXTRA so I think I see galvanised pipe in my future... Regards, Peter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Peter > That is an interesting concept. Have you weld any of this stuff yourself ? Here is what I would start looking at, and I am sure you have been looking it already. > 3.5 mm = .1377 inches witch is more than the thickness of .125 or 1/8" so you would be adding 1/3 again the weight to the deck. How well will this 3Cr12� will hold up to chloride and fatigue cracking. > http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/STP/PAGES/STP24083S.htm | 20092|20063|2009-04-08 06:22:14|sae140|Re: Stainless to carbon steel welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Mauro, I agree with you. But then I spent a lot of my life in heavy offshore marine research vessels. Doing things as Colin suggests would have gotten equipment instantly condemned. In fact I would have refused to accept it aboard one of my vessels, I've seen people nearly killed when gear breaks under load. > > For non-critical stuff, yes, I do as Colin does. > > PDW > Just so that no-one will think of me as some kind of crazy cavalier welding maverick, I'd hasten to add that I have the highest respect for responsible welding practices where they are obviously required. With a steel boat however, especially those at the lower size range such as we are looking at here, just how many critical welds are there, and how essential is good welding practice when we are looking at boats which are massively over-built ? Take slag inclusions for example - I would expect an inspector to have a blue fit and the welder reprimanded or sacked if serious inclusions were detected on a pressurised pipe weld or similar - but with a steel boat, just how serious a threat does an inclusion pose ? I may have commented before that I'd stick my neck out and guess that if it wasn't for the need to keep water out of the hull, that 50% stitch-welding (2" full penetration weld, skip 2" etc) would still produce a hull capable of withstanding the stresses of being thrown against the rocks and still survive intact. If true, then that suggests that massive slag inclusions would not pose any serious threat to the integrity of the hull as a whole. Let me quickly add that I'm NOT suggesting that slag inclusions are 'OK', but just that they do not pose a dramatic 'end of the world' scenario if they should occur from time to time. Now I would expect such a suggestion to cause a professional welder or inspector to have a heart attack, but I have a concern that the intolerant pursuit of welding perfection - whether this is directed at technique or at the materials used - might actually put off an amateur with zero welding experience but still intent on home-building from realising his or her dream. And that would be a pity. Whenever welding is discussed on this forum, the conversation frequently descends into welding esoterica, which is hardly surprising given the level of expertise within the group - but, much as the idea might pain the professionals here, as far as steel boatbuilding is concerned, welding is but a means to an end, and is not necessarily an end in itself. By all means let's aim for perfection, just as long as "that's good enough" can be considered acceptable. Love and peace. Colin| 20093|20083|2009-04-08 08:16:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > Other concerns: > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > welder Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that I've got (http://www.perfectswitch.com/mobiarc200x.htm). > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20094|20094|2009-04-08 13:43:31|mr_lugnuts_2007|Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS to carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll study up on the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire welded thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a Miller w/ Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts| 20095|20083|2009-04-08 14:53:07|mauro gonzaga|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"?  I do not see Ni in it.  I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. Mauro --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: From: Ben Okopnik Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > Other concerns: > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > welder Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20096|20083|2009-04-09 07:10:50|peter_d_wiley|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|Chemical composition (percentages): C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic steel. This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how that's a good idea in a seaway... After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is simply waiting for the right situation to arise. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"?  I do not see Ni in it.  I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. > Mauro > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > From: Ben Okopnik > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > Other concerns: > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > > welder > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20097|20097|2009-04-09 14:13:29|brentswain38|power source|I stand corrected. I put a multimeter on the output from my alternator welder and it said 180 volts . I had to slow it down a lot to get to 125 volts. The angle grinder ran just fine at that RPM. Best get it at the right RPM before using it on your power tools. Brent| 20098|20079|2009-04-09 14:41:19|brentswain38|Re: Light vs Heavy mast discussion|I'm always amazed at the costs they quote , as if they were cheap. It looks like they are trying to impress us with their affluence. I'm not impressed with their foolishness. I listen to the consequences of their decisions on the traffic report every morning, before going back to sleep for another hour. The steel mast for the 36 costs under $1,000, including labour, leaving $24,000 to get a huge head start on the fool who spent the time working to pay for a $25,000 dollar mast. At an extra half knot , he will never sail far enough to make up for the time he wasted paying for the thing. People who deal with a mast that way have a tendency to deal with the rest of the boat the same way , leading to huge cost overuns, and as a consequence, usually never leave. When friends in light , expensive boats outsail me in light winds I tell them that they have another 40,000 miles to go before they actually pass me. Friends who have converted to aluminium masts from steel are usually ambivalent when asked how great the improvement in sailing ability was. With a six inch OD steel mast they say the improvement would be barely noticeable. Lighter masts definitly increase the liklihood of capsize. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Donal Philby wrote: > > The Morgan's Cloud site is a must for high latitude sailors or wannabes. Lots of discussions of many topics. And here is a recent one, of a three part on re-masting with carbon fiber and the consequences--to the bank account, sailing ability and comfort at sea: > > http://morganscloud.com/aacblog/2009/04/refit-tale-5-carbon-fiber-mast-bottom.html > > donal > | 20099|20083|2009-04-09 14:49:34|mauro gonzaga|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|Good you have decided not to use it. Martensite is the structure of the steel with high carbon content which forms heating it and remains cooling rapidly. Typical of wear resistant tools: files or chisels. I presume in mining is used beacause of its wear resistance given by it hardness. Among all repeat all type of steel AISI 400 serie is the most difficult to weld. However after welding post weld heat treatment is mandatory. DON?T USE IT. With your decision you have saved your deck. Fair wind. Mauro  --- On Thu, 4/9/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: From: peter_d_wiley Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 1:10 PM Chemical composition (percentages) : C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic steel. This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how that's a good idea in a seaway... After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is simply waiting for the right situation to arise. PDW --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"?  I do not see Ni in it.  I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. > Mauro > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > From: Ben Okopnik > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > Other concerns: > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > > welder > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20100|20074|2009-04-09 14:51:33|brentswain38|Re: More common screwups|When you reduce tankage on the centreline, a space that is relatively useless for anything else , you end up having to make up for it in areas higher up, which are better used for other stowage. Don't expect a builder who has always had plenty of storage ashore, to apreciate the importance of efficient use of storage space on a cruising boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Some people with single keel 36 footers have put the top of the main water tank at the hull keel joint , reducing the capacity of the tank by up to 60%. The space above it is a relatively useless space. The tank top should be 4 ft wide at the widest point, ending up an inch or two below the floor. When one gets aove the hull keel joint and the width of the tank increases rapidly the capacity per inch of height increases drastically. While it is nice to have a reliable watermaker, I only feel secure with enough water in the tank to complete the voyage, rather than the assumption the watermaker will never break down, however reliable it may have proven so far. > Only people with offshore experience will appreciate how much more peace of mind one gets at sea from having enough water in the tank, already made. > brent > | 20101|20097|2009-04-09 18:22:38|Paul Wilson|Re: power source|I stand corrected. I put a multimeter on the output from my alternator welder and it said 180 volts . I had to slow it down a lot to get to 125 volts. The angle grinder ran just fine at that RPM. Best get it at the right RPM before using it on your power tools. Brent Hi Brent, I am not familiar with how you have modified the output of your alternator but the output may not be what you think. Your angle grinder may actually be running on DC, not AC since the output of an unregulated alternator is actually a pulsed DC. If you are running it and can read a DC voltage coming off your alternator, this is most certainly the case. My guess is you haven't modified the diodes or windings of your alternator since you are using it for your welder and like to keep things simple. Measuring a voltage that is a combination of DC and AC with varying frequencies on a standard multimeter can be very misleading. Many power tools use a "universal" brush motor that doesn't care if it gets AC or DC. There are also many types of accessories that normally operate on 115V AC that will works just as well on 115V DC. Anything that is purely resistive will work, such as heaters, incandescent lights, coffee pots, etc. For motor driven appliances or tools, they must have a universal motor (AC or DC). They can't have any solid-state electronics, like variable speed, etc. To help explain, I got this snip from this website: http://islandcastaway.com/stuff/windpower/Alternator%20Secrets.htm MODIFICATION FOR 110 VOLT AC Alternators produce rectified DC power. If we tap the leads attached to the diodes, we can obtain 120 volt AC power. Some, but not all transformer operated appliances such as TV's, radio's, fluorescent lights might be possibly be run on this AC. AC coming from the alternator is very high frequency and a great many transformers will overheat at the high frequency. The only way to tell is to plug the device in for a few seconds, unplug it, and then feel the transformer or ballast to see if it is overheating. Even this is risky. Unless you're willing to take the chances involved, you might be better off converting an induction motor to provide pure 60 cycle AC, described later on. If you'd still like to give it a try, conversion is a simple matter of removing diodes, and connecting leads. In most alternators two wires are soldered to each of the diodes. Remove both from the diode and attach it to one of three leads. When wired as shown, two outlets with a common ground can be powered. Forget about running motor-driven appliances-unless they use universal AC-DC brush type motors. Ordinary induction motors are designed for 60 cycles AC. At different frequencies they will run at different rpm if at all, and will quite possibly overheat or be destroyed. Personally, I like to use an inverter and prefer not to take the risk of damaging or overheating a tool. A 400 watt inverter can power most small power tools and are relatively cheap. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20103|20103|2009-04-09 19:12:40|brentswain38|Steel mast|Andy Deering has a steel mast for a 36 for sale . It is 44 feet long , 6 inch OD tubing with a 1/8th inch wall. He went for an aluminium mast for his 36 footer and said the difference was unoticeable. His email address is andy_lisa@... Brent| 20104|20097|2009-04-09 19:14:05|brentswain38|Re: power source|I haven't modified anything. I priced the wire for heavier field windings and it came to $45. I can buy a spare for $25. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I stand corrected. I put a multimeter on the output from my alternator > welder and it said 180 volts . I had to slow it down a lot to get to 125 > volts. The angle grinder ran just fine at that RPM. Best get it at the right > RPM before using it on your power tools. > Brent > > Hi Brent, > > > > I am not familiar with how you have modified the output of your alternator > but the output may not be what you think. Your angle grinder may actually > be running on DC, not AC since the output of an unregulated alternator is > actually a pulsed DC. If you are running it and can read a DC voltage > coming off your alternator, this is most certainly the case. My guess is > you haven't modified the diodes or windings of your alternator since you are > using it for your welder and like to keep things simple. Measuring a > voltage that is a combination of DC and AC with varying frequencies on a > standard multimeter can be very misleading. > > > > Many power tools use a "universal" brush motor that doesn't care if it gets > AC or DC. There are also many types of accessories that normally operate on > 115V AC that will works just as well on 115V DC. Anything that is purely > resistive will work, such as heaters, incandescent lights, coffee pots, etc. > For motor driven appliances or tools, they must have a universal motor (AC > or DC). They can't have any solid-state electronics, like variable speed, > etc. > > > > To help explain, I got this snip from this website: > > > > http://islandcastaway.com/stuff/windpower/Alternator%20Secrets.htm > > MODIFICATION FOR 110 VOLT AC > > Alternators produce rectified DC power. If we tap the leads attached to the > diodes, we can obtain 120 volt AC power. Some, but not all transformer > operated appliances such as TV's, radio's, fluorescent lights might be > possibly be run on this AC. > > AC coming from the alternator is very high frequency and a great many > transformers will overheat at the high frequency. The only way to tell is to > plug the device in for a few seconds, unplug it, and then feel the > transformer or ballast to see if it is overheating. Even this is risky. > Unless you're willing to take the chances involved, you might be better off > converting an induction motor to provide pure 60 cycle AC, described later > on. > > If you'd still like to give it a try, conversion is a simple matter of > removing diodes, and connecting leads. In most alternators two wires are > soldered to each of the diodes. Remove both from the diode and attach it to > one of three leads. When wired as shown, two outlets with a common ground > can be powered. > > Forget about running motor-driven appliances-unless they use universal AC-DC > brush type motors. Ordinary induction motors are designed for 60 cycles AC. > At different frequencies they will run at different rpm if at all, and will > quite possibly overheat or be destroyed. > > Personally, I like to use an inverter and prefer not to take the risk of > damaging or overheating a tool. A 400 watt inverter can power most small > power tools and are relatively cheap. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20105|20083|2009-04-09 19:15:12|brentswain38|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|14 guage anythinbg would warp and oil can like hell. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Good you have decided not to use it. Martensite is the structure of the steel with high carbon content which forms heating it and remains cooling rapidly. Typical of wear resistant tools: files or chisels. I presume in mining is used beacause of its wear resistance given by it hardness. Among all repeat all type of steel AISI 400 serie is the most difficult to weld. However after welding post weld heat treatment is mandatory. DON?T USE IT. With your decision you have saved your deck. > Fair wind. Mauro > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > From: peter_d_wiley > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > > > > > > > Chemical composition (percentages) : > > C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 > > Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. > > I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic steel. > > This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. > > As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. > > As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how that's a good idea in a seaway... > > After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is simply waiting for the right situation to arise. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"? I do not see Ni in it. I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. > > Mauro > > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > Other concerns: > > > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > > > welder > > > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged > > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20106|20097|2009-04-09 21:01:33|David Frantz|Re: power source|I hate to use this word but of depends. That because there are a number of ways to come up with that AC value. For anything other than sine waves you need a true RMS converter in the meter for reliable results. Many lower cost meters are calibrated to read the RMS equivalent when measuring a clean sine wave. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 9, 2009, at 7:08 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I had the multimeter on the ac setting. Would that make it more > accurate? > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: >> >> I stand corrected. I put a multimeter on the output from my >> alternator >> welder and it said 180 volts . I had to slow it down a lot to get >> to 125 >> volts. The angle grinder ran just fine at that RPM. Best get it at >> the right >> RPM before using it on your power tools. >> Brent >> >> Hi Brent, >> >> >> >> I am not familiar with how you have modified the output of your >> alternator >> but the output may not be what you think. Your angle grinder may >> actually >> be running on DC, not AC since the output of an unregulated >> alternator is >> actually a pulsed DC. If you are running it and can read a DC >> voltage >> coming off your alternator, this is most certainly the case. My >> guess is >> you haven't modified the diodes or windings of your alternator >> since you are >> using it for your welder and like to keep things simple. Measuring a >> voltage that is a combination of DC and AC with varying >> frequencies on a >> standard multimeter can be very misleading. >> >> >> >> Many power tools use a "universal" brush motor that doesn't care if >> it gets >> AC or DC. There are also many types of accessories that normally >> operate on >> 115V AC that will works just as well on 115V DC. Anything that is >> purely >> resistive will work, such as heaters, incandescent lights, coffee >> pots, etc. >> For motor driven appliances or tools, they must have a universal >> motor (AC >> or DC). They can't have any solid-state electronics, like variable >> speed, >> etc. >> >> >> >> To help explain, I got this snip from this website: >> >> >> >> http://islandcastaway.com/stuff/windpower/Alternator%20Secrets.htm >> >> MODIFICATION FOR 110 VOLT AC >> >> Alternators produce rectified DC power. If we tap the leads >> attached to the >> diodes, we can obtain 120 volt AC power. Some, but not all >> transformer >> operated appliances such as TV's, radio's, fluorescent lights might >> be >> possibly be run on this AC. >> >> AC coming from the alternator is very high frequency and a great many >> transformers will overheat at the high frequency. The only way to >> tell is to >> plug the device in for a few seconds, unplug it, and then feel the >> transformer or ballast to see if it is overheating. Even this is >> risky. >> Unless you're willing to take the chances involved, you might be >> better off >> converting an induction motor to provide pure 60 cycle AC, >> described later >> on. >> >> If you'd still like to give it a try, conversion is a simple matter >> of >> removing diodes, and connecting leads. In most alternators two >> wires are >> soldered to each of the diodes. Remove both from the diode and >> attach it to >> one of three leads. When wired as shown, two outlets with a common >> ground >> can be powered. >> >> Forget about running motor-driven appliances-unless they use >> universal AC-DC >> brush type motors. Ordinary induction motors are designed for 60 >> cycles AC. >> At different frequencies they will run at different rpm if at all, >> and will >> quite possibly overheat or be destroyed. >> >> Personally, I like to use an inverter and prefer not to take the >> risk of >> damaging or overheating a tool. A 400 watt inverter can power most >> small >> power tools and are relatively cheap. >> >> Cheers, Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20107|20107|2009-04-09 21:20:30|kingsknight4life|Lawsuit|Hey brent Lawyers say the cost of a lawsuit will be costly and the outcome far from certain. Basically not worth throwing good money after bad so to speak. Well not exactly but the risk isn't worth the reward. Rowland| 20108|20097|2009-04-09 23:52:13|Ben Okopnik|Re: power source|On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 08:59:25PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > I hate to use this word but of depends. That because there are a > number of ways to come up with that AC value. For anything other > than sine waves you need a true RMS converter in the meter for > reliable results. Many lower cost meters are calibrated to read the > RMS equivalent when measuring a clean sine wave. ...the upshot of all of which is - no, you're not going to get an accurate measurement with a standard meter on AC. Even a true RMS meter (a rather expensive gadget) still wouldn't do you any good for measuring the voltage from an alternator; even though a true RMS design makes fewer assumptions, the ones that it does make are still wrong in this case. Looking at an oscilloscope and figuring out a rough multiplier factor based on the waveform, then shifting that number a bit based on the frequency, and finally multiplying it by the peak voltage would be the only way to come at it from the measurement end. Or you could just do a practical test: take something that draws a good amount of current (say, a grinder), plug it into a 120v socket, and listen to what it sounds like. Then, plug it into your alternator, and keep raising the RPM until it sounds pretty much like it did when it was plugged into a socket. Now you'll know what it takes to produce an equivalent amount of power - regardless of what the meter says. Obviously, I don't recommend powering computers or any other electronic equipment that way. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20109|20083|2009-04-10 01:54:01|mauro gonzaga|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|By the way Brent. The use of gauge instead of mils (of inch) or mm for thk. or diameter, is an American use that I never understood. Could you give me the key to understand these gauge numbers? Mauro --- On Fri, 4/10/09, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 1:14 AM 14 guage anythinbg would warp and oil can like hell. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Good you have decided not to use it. Martensite is the structure of the steel with high carbon content which forms heating it and remains cooling rapidly. Typical of wear resistant tools: files or chisels. I presume in mining is used beacause of its wear resistance given by it hardness. Among all repeat all type of steel AISI 400 serie is the most difficult to weld. However after welding post weld heat treatment is mandatory. DON?T USE IT. With your decision you have saved your deck. > Fair wind. Mauro > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > From: peter_d_wiley > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > > > > > > > Chemical composition (percentages) : > > C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 > > Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. > > I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic steel. > > This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. > > As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. > > As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how that's a good idea in a seaway... > > After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is simply waiting for the right situation to arise. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"? I do not see Ni in it. I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. > > Mauro > > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > Other concerns: > > > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > > > welder > > > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged > > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20110|20107|2009-04-10 04:03:20|Zoran R. Pualic|Re: Lawsuit|Hey Brent & Rowland, Old sentence "I lost money on gambling, but I lost even more on pulling out" Zoran, Belgrade (The lawyer) From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kingsknight4life Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 3:19 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Lawsuit Hey brent Lawyers say the cost of a lawsuit will be costly and the outcome far from certain. Basically not worth throwing good money after bad so to speak. Well not exactly but the risk isn't worth the reward. Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20111|20083|2009-04-10 04:47:37|peter_d_wiley|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|http://mdmetric.com/tech/steelthk.htm Since I never said anything about 14G plate/sheet at any time, the relevance of the comment escapes me anyway. You can see what the equivalent gauge conversions are from the above table. 3.5mm is close to 10G not 14G. The Americans and the other 10% of the world population still use the old imperial measurements because they're still stuck in a dead past. There isn't any other reason. I grew up using imperial measurements and switched to metric when I was in high school. The only places still using imperial are the USA, some Canadians and Liberia. The claim in the document I have on 3CR12 re control of distortion says "3CR12 behaves in a similar fashion to mild steel as regards distortion during welding. No particular requirements are needed to avoid the distortion which occurs during the welding of austenitic stainless steel". Regardless, I'm not experimenting, but I will buy one sheet to play with. At worst I'll have a nice shiny bench top in my shed. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > By the way Brent. The use of gauge instead of mils (of inch) or mm for thk. or diameter, is an American use that I never understood. Could you give me the key to understand these gauge numbers? Mauro > > --- On Fri, 4/10/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 1:14 AM > > > > > > > > > 14 guage anythinbg would warp and oil can like hell. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > Good you have decided not to use it. Martensite is the structure of the steel with high carbon content which forms heating it and remains cooling rapidly. Typical of wear resistant tools: files or chisels. I presume in mining is used beacause of its wear resistance given by it hardness. Among all repeat all type of steel AISI 400 serie is the most difficult to weld. However after welding post weld heat treatment is mandatory. DON?T USE IT. With your decision you have saved your deck. > > Fair wind. Mauro > > > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > From: peter_d_wiley > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chemical composition (percentages) : > > > > C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 > > > > Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. > > > > I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic steel. > > > > This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. > > > > As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. > > > > As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how that's a good idea in a seaway... > > > > After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is simply waiting for the right situation to arise. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"? I do not see Ni in it. I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. > > > Mauro > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > Other concerns: > > > > > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > > > > welder > > > > > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > > > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > > > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > > > > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged > > > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > > > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > > > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > > > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20112|20097|2009-04-10 04:48:22|sae140|Re: power source|Just want to echo what's already been said - using a 'mains' ac meter on frequencies much higher than 50-60Hz will show false readings. The idea to connect a lamp and see just how brightly it shines is a crude but nevertheless neat method of checking you're in the right ball-park. Certainly if the lamp filament blows that would be a sure sign that you're over-cooking the voltage ! Suggestion - assuming you can get access to both ends of the alternator's stator windings, consider connecting up the windings in both Star and Delta modes, and to be really fancy, you could even install an old-style manual Star-Delta changeover switch from an ex-scrapyard 3-phase motor controller. Star config would give you maximum voltage at roughly 1/2 the max current, and Delta would give you maximum current at roughly half the max voltage, for any given rotational speed. For all intents and purposes, Star and Delta configurations would give you the equivalent of an electronic 'gearbox'. Colin| 20113|20079|2009-04-10 04:55:44|peter_d_wiley|Re: Light vs Heavy mast discussion|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'm always amazed at the costs they quote , as if they were cheap. It looks like they are trying to impress us with their affluence. I'm not impressed with their foolishness. I listen to the consequences of their decisions on the traffic report every morning, before going back to sleep for another hour. > The steel mast for the 36 costs under $1,000, including labour, leaving $24,000 to get a huge head start on the fool who spent the time working to pay for a $25,000 dollar mast. I read that report and that was the exact same thing that struck me, too. Also, if it DOES break, and anything can, you're out another $25K for another one. If you can get one where you are at any price. Carbon fibre is wonderfully strong but its ultimate failure point is real close to its initial deformation point - at least with an alloy or steel stick, it'll bend before it breaks. You only transfer stresses anyway. If the stick doesn't give, how about the rigging? The attachment points of the shrouds? Stress anything enough and something in the system will break. Then down she comes. I liked Moitessier's account of winching his steel bowsprit back to useable condition after it got bent. Try that with carbon fibre or even aluminum. Not going to happen. PDW| 20114|20083|2009-04-10 05:36:57|mauro gonzaga|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|In pressure vessel industry ASME Sect.IX rules welding procedure and welders performance qualification. Approx.same requirements are in AWS D.1.1 for structures. Both require in addition to mechanical tests on welded joint (transverse tensile) also bend test face and root. This test is easy to replicate: you should weld two pieces of your sheet and cut a strip 1.5 inch wide, with weld transvers in the middle, carefully round the edges and bend 180° on a former having diameter four times the thickness of the test coupons. Use a round stock or heavy pipe as former and two more round stocks as jig, put grease to avoid seizing, bend with weld transverse in the middle. I bet that, without PWHT (15 minute minimum at 1350 °F min.temperature, slow heating and cooling), your bend test samples will break just besides the weld (if you use 316 weld metal), in the so called HAZ (heat affected zone)  It is not a matter of distorsion, the requirement of the PWHT is because of the hardening of the steel during welding. Rules require that no open discontinuity greater than 1/16 in shall appear after bending unless it is at the edges. All theory, because since it will not be possible to PWHT a boat at that temperature, then use of 13 % Cr is not allowed.  Fair wind. Mauro --- On Fri, 4/10/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: From: peter_d_wiley Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 10:47 AM http://mdmetric. com/tech/ steelthk. htm Since I never said anything about 14G plate/sheet at any time, the relevance of the comment escapes me anyway. You can see what the equivalent gauge conversions are from the above table. 3.5mm is close to 10G not 14G. The Americans and the other 10% of the world population still use the old imperial measurements because they're still stuck in a dead past. There isn't any other reason. I grew up using imperial measurements and switched to metric when I was in high school. The only places still using imperial are the USA, some Canadians and Liberia. The claim in the document I have on 3CR12 re control of distortion says "3CR12 behaves in a similar fashion to mild steel as regards distortion during welding. No particular requirements are needed to avoid the distortion which occurs during the welding of austenitic stainless steel". Regardless, I'm not experimenting, but I will buy one sheet to play with. At worst I'll have a nice shiny bench top in my shed. PDW --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > By the way Brent. The use of gauge instead of mils (of inch) or mm for thk. or diameter, is an American use that I never understood. Could you give me the key to understand these gauge numbers? Mauro > > --- On Fri, 4/10/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 1:14 AM > > > > > > > > > 14 guage anythinbg would warp and oil can like hell. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > Good you have decided not to use it. Martensite is the structure of the steel with high carbon content which forms heating it and remains cooling rapidly. Typical of wear resistant tools: files or chisels. I presume in mining is used beacause of its wear resistance given by it hardness. Among all repeat all type of steel AISI 400 serie is the most difficult to weld. However after welding post weld heat treatment is mandatory. DON?T USE IT. With your decision you have saved your deck. > > Fair wind. Mauro > > > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > From: peter_d_wiley > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chemical composition (percentages) : > > > > C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 > > > > Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. > > > > I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic steel. > > > > This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. > > > > As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. > > > > As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how that's a good idea in a seaway... > > > > After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is simply waiting for the right situation to arise. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"? I do not see Ni in it. I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. > > > Mauro > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > Other concerns: > > > > > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > > > > welder > > > > > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > > > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > > > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > > > > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged > > > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > > > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > > > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > > > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20115|20083|2009-04-10 07:44:26|mauro gonzaga|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|Sorry, forgotten to say that weld cap shall be ground smooth. mauro --- On Fri, 4/10/09, mauro gonzaga wrote: From: mauro gonzaga Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 11:35 AM In pressure vessel industry ASME Sect.IX rules welding procedure and welders performance qualification. Approx.same requirements are in AWS D.1.1 for structures. Both require in addition to mechanical tests on welded joint (transverse tensile) also bend test face and root. This test is easy to replicate: you should weld two pieces of your sheet and cut a strip 1.5 inch wide, with weld transvers in the middle, carefully round the edges and bend 180° on a former having diameter four times the thickness of the test coupons. Use a round stock or heavy pipe as former and two more round stocks as jig, put grease to avoid seizing, bend with weld transverse in the middle. I bet that, without PWHT (15 minute minimum at 1350 °F min.temperature, slow heating and cooling), your bend test samples will break just besides the weld (if you use 316 weld metal), in the so called HAZ (heat affected zone)  It is not a matter of distorsion, the requirement of the PWHT is because of the hardening of the steel during welding. Rules require that no open discontinuity greater than 1/16 in shall appear after bending unless it is at the edges. All theory, because since it will not be possible to PWHT a boat at that temperature, then use of 13 % Cr is not allowed.  Fair wind. Mauro --- On Fri, 4/10/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: From: peter_d_wiley Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 10:47 AM http://mdmetric. com/tech/ steelthk. htm Since I never said anything about 14G plate/sheet at any time, the relevance of the comment escapes me anyway. You can see what the equivalent gauge conversions are from the above table. 3.5mm is close to 10G not 14G. The Americans and the other 10% of the world population still use the old imperial measurements because they're still stuck in a dead past. There isn't any other reason. I grew up using imperial measurements and switched to metric when I was in high school. The only places still using imperial are the USA, some Canadians and Liberia. The claim in the document I have on 3CR12 re control of distortion says "3CR12 behaves in a similar fashion to mild steel as regards distortion during welding. No particular requirements are needed to avoid the distortion which occurs during the welding of austenitic stainless steel". Regardless, I'm not experimenting, but I will buy one sheet to play with. At worst I'll have a nice shiny bench top in my shed. PDW --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > By the way Brent. The use of gauge instead of mils (of inch) or mm for thk. or diameter, is an American use that I never understood. Could you give me the key to understand these gauge numbers? Mauro > > --- On Fri, 4/10/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 1:14 AM > > > > > > > > > 14 guage anythinbg would warp and oil can like hell. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > Good you have decided not to use it. Martensite is the structure of the steel with high carbon content which forms heating it and remains cooling rapidly. Typical of wear resistant tools: files or chisels. I presume in mining is used beacause of its wear resistance given by it hardness. Among all repeat all type of steel AISI 400 serie is the most difficult to weld. However after welding post weld heat treatment is mandatory. DON?T USE IT. With your decision you have saved your deck. > > Fair wind. Mauro > > > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > From: peter_d_wiley > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chemical composition (percentages) : > > > > C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 > > > > Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. > > > > I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic steel. > > > > This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. > > > > As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. > > > > As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how that's a good idea in a seaway... > > > > After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is simply waiting for the right situation to arise. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"? I do not see Ni in it. I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. > > > Mauro > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > Other concerns: > > > > > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > > > > welder > > > > > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > > > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > > > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > > > > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged > > > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > > > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > > > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > > > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20116|20116|2009-04-10 10:18:18|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?/acorn nuts|"Before you get too excitted about the acorn nut idea, go and buy one. Now place something through the thread and give a gentle tap. Hey presto; the dome pops off. What do we have? A hole in the boat." That, plus stainless steel acorn nuts are not readily available and I presume are expensive. How about a 1/4" NPT or larger black iron or galvanized pipe cap welded flush into the deck, with same size pipe plug to fill it if unused. You would have to find the type of plug with a hex socket instead of the protruding square head, and you would have to paint the top. Not sure if any common size bolt fits 1/4" NPT, but at worst you would have to cut your own threads with a readily available die.| 20117|20079|2009-04-10 11:25:44|Donal Philby|Re: Light vs Heavy mast discussion|The $55K that Morgan's Cloud paid seems astronomical, but when yards charge US$15K to paint a 40 foot FG hull in good shape (I've seen several), it brings things into perspective: You could call it inflated or simply over engineered. I call it nuts. While I respect what the MG people are doing--the sailing part, anyway--the real giveaway was when they said that now they get seasick. After several months cruising our current boat, with heavy mast and generous displacement we returned home and I jumped back aboard a 40' raceboat I'd crewed on, mostly doing bow. The contrast was simply amazing, the motion so fast and jerky. No wonder people with modern cruisers run the lines back to the cockpit. I wish the marine mags would publish roll test figures in their reviews. Ours is about three seconds, even with 39% ballast/displacement ratio. Convert the heavy mast savings into coin and store it in the bilge. donal >From: brentswain38 >I'm always amazed at the costs they quote , as if they were cheap. It looks like they are trying to impress us with their affluence. I'm not impressed with their foolishness. I listen to the consequences of their decisions on the traffic report every morning, before going back to sleep for another hour. > The steel mast for the 36 costs under $1,000, including labour, leaving $24,000 to get a huge head start on the fool who spent the time working to pay for a $25,000 dollar mast. At an extra half knot , he will never sail far enough to make up for the time he wasted paying for the thing. People who deal with a mast that way have a tendency to deal with the rest of the boat the same way , leading to huge cost overuns, and as a consequence, usually never leave. > When friends in light , expensive boats outsail me in light winds I tell them that they have another 40,000 miles to go before they actually pass me. > Friends who have converted to aluminium masts from steel are usually ambivalent when asked how great the improvement in sailing ability was. With a six inch OD steel mast they say the improvement would be barely noticeable. > Lighter masts definitly increase the liklihood of capsize. | 20118|20118|2009-04-10 13:53:52|silascrosby|"Xenos" 31' Brent boat website|http://svxenos.com/category/about-xenos-and-her-crew/| 20119|20083|2009-04-10 14:34:22|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|I did. He's confusing your posting with mine. I came across a cheap stash of 14 GA stainless and was considering using it but I probably won't. I don't have any experience welding ss and it doesn't seem as forgiving as mild steel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > http://mdmetric.com/tech/steelthk.htm > > Since I never said anything about 14G plate/sheet at any time, the relevance of the comment escapes me anyway. You can see what the equivalent gauge conversions are from the above table. 3.5mm is close to 10G not 14G. > > The Americans and the other 10% of the world population still use the old imperial measurements because they're still stuck in a dead past. There isn't any other reason. > > I grew up using imperial measurements and switched to metric when I was in high school. The only places still using imperial are the USA, some Canadians and Liberia. > > The claim in the document I have on 3CR12 re control of distortion says > > "3CR12 behaves in a similar fashion to mild steel as regards distortion during welding. No particular requirements are needed to avoid the distortion which occurs during the welding of austenitic stainless steel". > > Regardless, I'm not experimenting, but I will buy one sheet to play with. At worst I'll have a nice shiny bench top in my shed. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > By the way Brent. The use of gauge instead of mils (of inch) or mm for thk. or diameter, is an American use that I never understood. Could you give me the key to understand these gauge numbers? Mauro > > > > --- On Fri, 4/10/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 1:14 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 guage anythinbg would warp and oil can like hell. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > Good you have decided not to use it. Martensite is the structure of the steel with high carbon content which forms heating it and remains cooling rapidly. Typical of wear resistant tools: files or chisels. I presume in mining is used beacause of its wear resistance given by it hardness. Among all repeat all type of steel AISI 400 serie is the most difficult to weld. However after welding post weld heat treatment is mandatory. DON?T USE IT. With your decision you have saved your deck. > > > Fair wind. Mauro > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > From: peter_d_wiley > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chemical composition (percentages) : > > > > > > C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 > > > > > > Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. > > > > > > I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic steel. > > > > > > This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. > > > > > > As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. > > > > > > As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how that's a good idea in a seaway... > > > > > > After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is simply waiting for the right situation to arise. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"? I do not see Ni in it. I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. > > > > Mauro > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Other concerns: > > > > > > > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > > > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > > > > > welder > > > > > > > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > > > > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > > > > > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > > > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > > > > > > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged > > > > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > > > > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > > > > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > > > > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 20120|20083|2009-04-10 14:35:11|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|I did. He's confusing your posting with mine. I came across a cheap stash of 14 GA stainless and was considering using it but I probably won't. I don't have any experience welding ss and it doesn't seem as forgiving as mild steel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > http://mdmetric.com/tech/steelthk.htm > > Since I never said anything about 14G plate/sheet at any time, the relevance of the comment escapes me anyway. You can see what the equivalent gauge conversions are from the above table. 3.5mm is close to 10G not 14G. > > The Americans and the other 10% of the world population still use the old imperial measurements because they're still stuck in a dead past. There isn't any other reason. > > I grew up using imperial measurements and switched to metric when I was in high school. The only places still using imperial are the USA, some Canadians and Liberia. > > The claim in the document I have on 3CR12 re control of distortion says > > "3CR12 behaves in a similar fashion to mild steel as regards distortion during welding. No particular requirements are needed to avoid the distortion which occurs during the welding of austenitic stainless steel". > > Regardless, I'm not experimenting, but I will buy one sheet to play with. At worst I'll have a nice shiny bench top in my shed. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > By the way Brent. The use of gauge instead of mils (of inch) or mm for thk. or diameter, is an American use that I never understood. Could you give me the key to understand these gauge numbers? Mauro > > > > --- On Fri, 4/10/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 1:14 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 guage anythinbg would warp and oil can like hell. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > Good you have decided not to use it. Martensite is the structure of the steel with high carbon content which forms heating it and remains cooling rapidly. Typical of wear resistant tools: files or chisels. I presume in mining is used beacause of its wear resistance given by it hardness. Among all repeat all type of steel AISI 400 serie is the most difficult to weld. However after welding post weld heat treatment is mandatory. DON?T USE IT. With your decision you have saved your deck. > > > Fair wind. Mauro > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > From: peter_d_wiley > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chemical composition (percentages) : > > > > > > C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 > > > > > > Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. > > > > > > I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic steel. > > > > > > This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. > > > > > > As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. > > > > > > As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how that's a good idea in a seaway... > > > > > > After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is simply waiting for the right situation to arise. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"? I do not see Ni in it. I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. > > > > Mauro > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Other concerns: > > > > > > > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > > > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > > > > > welder > > > > > > > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > > > > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > > > > > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > > > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > > > > > > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged > > > > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > > > > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > > > > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > > > > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 20121|20083|2009-04-10 14:59:12|boatwayupnorth|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|Mauro, From the bottom of my heart: I aggree, this damn illogical imperial measurement stuff can drive one crazy! Try this link - for converting pretty much everything and gauges to millimeters too: http://www.onlineconversion.com/gauge_sheet_metal.htm Cheers Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > By the way Brent. The use of gauge instead of mils (of inch) or mm for thk. or diameter, is an American use that I never understood. Could you give me the key to understand these gauge numbers? Mauro > > --- On Fri, 4/10/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 1:14 AM > > > > > > > > > 14 guage anythinbg would warp and oil can like hell. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > Good you have decided not to use it. Martensite is the structure of the steel with high carbon content which forms heating it and remains cooling rapidly. Typical of wear resistant tools: files or chisels. I presume in mining is used beacause of its wear resistance given by it hardness. Among all repeat all type of steel AISI 400 serie is the most difficult to weld. However after welding post weld heat treatment is mandatory. DON?T USE IT. With your decision you have saved your deck. > > Fair wind. Mauro > > > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > From: peter_d_wiley > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chemical composition (percentages) : > > > > C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 > > > > Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. > > > > I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic steel. > > > > This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. > > > > As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. > > > > As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how that's a good idea in a seaway... > > > > After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is simply waiting for the right situation to arise. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"? I do not see Ni in it. I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. > > > Mauro > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > Other concerns: > > > > > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > > > > welder > > > > > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > > > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > > > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > > > > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged > > > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > > > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > > > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > > > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20122|20097|2009-04-10 17:35:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: power source|On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 08:48:11AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > Just want to echo what's already been said - using a 'mains' ac meter > on frequencies much higher than 50-60Hz will show false readings. > The idea to connect a lamp and see just how brightly it shines is a > crude but nevertheless neat method of checking you're in the right > ball-park. Certainly if the lamp filament blows that would be a sure > sign that you're over-cooking the voltage ! > > Suggestion - assuming you can get access to both ends of the > alternator's stator windings, consider connecting up the windings in > both Star and Delta modes, and to be really fancy, you could even > install an old-style manual Star-Delta changeover switch from an > ex-scrapyard 3-phase motor controller. *Nice* suggestion, Colin! I'd never heard of such a switch before, but it makes all the sense in the world. The alternator on my boat is a fairly standard Delta type - it fits a commercial truck - and it gives me all the welding current I need to burn the largest rod I'd want to use on the boat. A quick look around the Net shows how it can be easily down with a 3PDT relay (it would take a hell of a big 3PDT switch to avoid arcing... I doubt that you could find one for any reasonable price): http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/5/10/23385/2173 -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20123|20107|2009-04-10 21:41:16|kingsknight4life|Re: Lawsuit|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran R. Pualic" wrote: > > Hey Brent & Rowland, > > Old sentence "I lost money on gambling, but I lost even more on pulling out" > > Zoran, Belgrade > > (The lawyer) I dont get it.??? Rowland| 20124|20083|2009-04-10 22:17:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|Gauges of steel came from the number of passes a sheet of steel required in a rolling mill to reach final thickness. Hence 14 gauge is thinner than 12 gauge because it got rolled two more times. The differences between the different gauge standards is because the gauge also referred to the number of passes on a particular type of rolling mill. So different mills produced a different thickness for the same number of passes. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "boatwayupnorth" To: Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? Mauro, From the bottom of my heart: I aggree, this damn illogical imperial measurement stuff can drive one crazy! Try this link - for converting pretty much everything and gauges to millimeters too: http://www.onlineconversion.com/gauge_sheet_metal.htm Cheers Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > By the way Brent. The use of gauge instead of mils (of inch) or mm for > thk. or diameter, is an American use that I never understood. Could you > give me the key to understand these gauge numbers? Mauro > > --- On Fri, 4/10/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good > idea? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 1:14 AM > > > > > > > > > 14 guage anythinbg would warp and oil can like hell. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga ...> wrote: > > > > Good you have decided not to use it. Martensite is the structure of the > > steel with high carbon content which forms heating it and remains > > cooling rapidly. Typical of wear resistant tools: files or chisels. I > > presume in mining is used beacause of its wear resistance given by it > > hardness. Among all repeat all type of steel AISI 400 serie is the most > > difficult to weld. However after welding post weld heat treatment is > > mandatory. DON?T USE IT. With your decision you have saved your deck. > > Fair wind. Mauro > > > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > From: peter_d_wiley > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good > > idea? > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chemical composition (percentages) : > > > > C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 > > > > Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa > > where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. > > > > I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a > > copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild > > steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic > > steel. > > > > This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. > > > > As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the > > consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. > > With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one > > sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. > > > > As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put > > together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've > > buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist > > to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how > > that's a good idea in a seaway... > > > > After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If > > you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is > > simply waiting for the right situation to arise. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga > ...> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"? I do not > > > see Ni in it. I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 > > > (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they > > > harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in > > > annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape > > > they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color > > > like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust > > > free. > > > Mauro > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a > > > good idea? > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > Other concerns: > > > > > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a > > > > stick > > > > welder > > > > > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > > > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > > > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > > > > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one > > > fully-charged > > > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > > > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > > > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > > > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > > .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20125|20094|2009-04-10 22:42:56|Tom Mann|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works fine, about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap till you get it dialed in. Tom On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: > > First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS to > carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll study up on > the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire welded > thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a Miller w/ > Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20126|20116|2009-04-10 22:48:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?/acorn nuts|On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 07:17:15AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > "Before you get too excitted about the acorn nut idea, go and buy one. > Now place something through the thread and give a gentle tap. > Hey presto; the dome pops off. What do we have? A hole in the boat." > > That, plus stainless steel acorn nuts are not readily available and I > presume are expensive. How about a 1/4" NPT or larger black iron or > galvanized pipe cap welded flush into the deck, with same size pipe > plug to fill it if unused. Wasn't the whole point of the idea to have a non-rusting hardpoint on the boat? Unless you go with stainless, you're not going to have it; painting just delays the rust until the first time you use it - and it'll gum up the threads as well. If you're having a problem with acorn nut tops popping off (and why would you? If the top pops off when you hit it with a hammer, then don't hit it with a hammer - that's not what it's made for!), then you could: 1) Put a locknut on your threaded piece so that it can't bottom out; 2) Throw a bead around the acorn nut where you think it's weak; 3) Get honkin'-humongous acorns - say, 3/4" ID - which will be too big to destroy with a hammer; 4) Get a big SS nut and spend a couple of minutes closing off one end with weld material; 5) Weld two nuts one on top of another, drive a short screw into the top one, weld the hell out of the whole thing, and spend the rest of your life trying to pound it off with a hammer (if you're any good at welding, you'll die of old age before it happens.) In short: seems like a non-problem. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20127|20097|2009-04-11 06:09:13|sae140|Re: power source|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > A quick look around the Net shows how it can be easily down with a 3PDT > relay (it would take a hell of a big 3PDT switch to avoid arcing... I > doubt that you could find one for any reasonable price): > > http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/5/10/23385/2173 > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > I first came across Star-Delta starter gear in my first job back in the 60's. We had some seriously large machines which had 400 volt 3-phase motors about 3 ft long and 2ft in diameter which were directly coupled to huge hydraulic pumps, and these motors needed to be started from cold when under load (a pretty stupid set-up really ...). The Star-Delta switch-gear was held within a box on the wall which had a 3-position handle on the side. When the handle was held upwards in the 'start' position, the motor slowly gained revs against the load but had an upper speed limit, so when it was judged ok to do so, the handle was then pulled smartly downwards to the 'run' position where it self-locked in place. This switch-gear performed for all the world just like an 'electrical gearbox'. Whether or not the Star-Delta gear was a Nife-blade set-up, or whether it was a mechanical contactor, I really couldn't say - but it certainly felt 'mechanical' in operation. Seeing as you wouldn't need to change from Star to Delta that often - another solution would be to make up a 'link options' assembly, where the windings options could be selected by hard-wired links. I have this set-up in my 250A welder to select between single and three-phase.| 20128|20128|2009-04-11 09:23:37|samsung_mwe@yahoo.com|Get your own money making Toolbar Google AdSense is one of the bes|Get your own money making Toolbar Google AdSense is one of the best money making programs in the internet. but you must have a very high traffic web site to make money, I think this is very hard and expensive advertisements . NO problem Your Google AdSense Toolbar is the best solution to make a large amount of money without website or expensive advertisements . Download now >>> https://paydotcom.com/r/83373/alphalogic/23729455/| 20129|20107|2009-04-11 11:26:39|audeojude|Re: Lawsuit|sad but true.. layers get paid no matter what. They wont take a case for a percentage unless they know they can win and the gain to them is significant. I had a business that my partners did some underhanded stuff and I ended up being kicked out on the street and swindled out of about 250,000 dollars in equity in the business. I went to a very good and influential lawyer (he had been the county DA for several years prior to this).. He spent a couple hours with me at no charge and looked the case over and told me that I could for sure win it. Then he told me no one would take it unless they were paid by the hour. According to him it would realistically take about 30,000 dollars and 2 years to bring it to trial and win. the catch was that there would be nothing worth while in the way of assets by then to get any money back from. 6 months later the business was gone with nothing left because of bad decisions on the other owners part. I ended up having to walk away from it and start my whole economic life over again from scratch in my early 30's Between that and a couple other situations I have come to the conclusion that in any civil matter you only get as much justice as you can pay for and that getting justice usually just doubles your losses. For people that are rich and it is about a lot of money they can afford justice. For someone like me that makes 50,000 a year I usually can't afford justice as I will have to pay more to a lawyer than I will gain in winning the case. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't system with the lawyers winning every time. scott origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hey brent > Lawyers say the cost of a lawsuit will be costly and the outcome far from certain. Basically not worth throwing good money after bad so to speak. Well not exactly but the risk isn't worth the reward. > Rowland > | 20130|20116|2009-04-11 16:26:55|brentswain38|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?/acorn nuts|Welding a 1/8th inch ss cap on a regular stainless nut works OK and is far cheaper. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 07:17:15AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > > > "Before you get too excitted about the acorn nut idea, go and buy one. > > Now place something through the thread and give a gentle tap. > > Hey presto; the dome pops off. What do we have? A hole in the boat." > > > > That, plus stainless steel acorn nuts are not readily available and I > > presume are expensive. How about a 1/4" NPT or larger black iron or > > galvanized pipe cap welded flush into the deck, with same size pipe > > plug to fill it if unused. > > Wasn't the whole point of the idea to have a non-rusting hardpoint on > the boat? Unless you go with stainless, you're not going to have it; > painting just delays the rust until the first time you use it - and > it'll gum up the threads as well. > > If you're having a problem with acorn nut tops popping off (and why > would you? If the top pops off when you hit it with a hammer, then don't > hit it with a hammer - that's not what it's made for!), then you could: > > 1) Put a locknut on your threaded piece so that it can't bottom out; > 2) Throw a bead around the acorn nut where you think it's weak; > 3) Get honkin'-humongous acorns - say, 3/4" ID - which will be too big > to destroy with a hammer; > 4) Get a big SS nut and spend a couple of minutes closing off one end > with weld material; > 5) Weld two nuts one on top of another, drive a short screw into the top > one, weld the hell out of the whole thing, and spend the rest of your > life trying to pound it off with a hammer (if you're any good at > welding, you'll die of old age before it happens.) > > In short: seems like a non-problem. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20131|20118|2009-04-11 16:44:17|brentswain38|Re: "Xenos" 31' Brent boat website|That was George Hone's boat from Nananimo. The only reason there was a lack of headroom in the galley was because he decided to make it "Yachtie" without a wheelhouse, so Evan built it that way, no questions asked. Prostitutes will do whatever you pay them to do, and any problems that result are your problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > http://svxenos.com/category/about-xenos-and-her-crew/ > | 20132|20107|2009-04-11 17:55:24|brentswain38|Re: Lawsuit|Most such lawsuits are settled on the steps of the courthouse before going inside. They act like they have it all sewed up and when they realise that you are actually going to go ahead with it they get desperate to make a deal. When you put a lien on all their assets and buisiness grinds to a halt, and they are loooking at business staying that way until the court case comes up they throw money at you just to get back in business. Lawyers work on a contingency fee, in such cases. Try another lawyer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hey brent > Lawyers say the cost of a lawsuit will be costly and the outcome far from certain. Basically not worth throwing good money after bad so to speak. Well not exactly but the risk isn't worth the reward. > Rowland > | 20133|20097|2009-04-11 17:58:55|brentswain38|Re: power source|Paul. Great to have a highly qualified instruments technician on the site. If I made a big, funky one time use capacitor out of foil and paper , and hooked it across the leads, would that smooth ou=t the humps and give me a more accurate reading, without affecting the voltage? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Just want to echo what's already been said - using a 'mains' ac meter on frequencies much higher than 50-60Hz will show false readings. > The idea to connect a lamp and see just how brightly it shines is a crude but nevertheless neat method of checking you're in the right ball-park. Certainly if the lamp filament blows that would be a sure sign that you're over-cooking the voltage ! > > Suggestion - assuming you can get access to both ends of the alternator's stator windings, consider connecting up the windings in both Star and Delta modes, and to be really fancy, you could even install an old-style manual Star-Delta changeover switch from an ex-scrapyard 3-phase motor controller. > > Star config would give you maximum voltage at roughly 1/2 the max current, and Delta would give you maximum current at roughly half the max voltage, for any given rotational speed. For all intents and purposes, Star and Delta configurations would give you the equivalent of an electronic 'gearbox'. > > Colin > | 20134|20083|2009-04-11 18:06:18|brentswain38|Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea?|In metric plate 4mm is better for 31 footers and 3/16th is best for 36 footers . Wish we had both in Canada. 16 guage is 1/16th inch ,1.6mm, 11 guage is 1`/8th inch roughly 3.2mm. 12 and 14 guage is between these two. In Canada we are halfaway between metric and imperial. Liquids, weights and distances are in metric, plate thickness and building is in imperial.The metric push of the 70's never went all the way. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > http://mdmetric.com/tech/steelthk.htm > > Since I never said anything about 14G plate/sheet at any time, the relevance of the comment escapes me anyway. You can see what the equivalent gauge conversions are from the above table. 3.5mm is close to 10G not 14G. > > The Americans and the other 10% of the world population still use the old imperial measurements because they're still stuck in a dead past. There isn't any other reason. > > I grew up using imperial measurements and switched to metric when I was in high school. The only places still using imperial are the USA, some Canadians and Liberia. > > The claim in the document I have on 3CR12 re control of distortion says > > "3CR12 behaves in a similar fashion to mild steel as regards distortion during welding. No particular requirements are needed to avoid the distortion which occurs during the welding of austenitic stainless steel". > > Regardless, I'm not experimenting, but I will buy one sheet to play with. At worst I'll have a nice shiny bench top in my shed. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > By the way Brent. The use of gauge instead of mils (of inch) or mm for thk. or diameter, is an American use that I never understood. Could you give me the key to understand these gauge numbers? Mauro > > > > --- On Fri, 4/10/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 1:14 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 guage anythinbg would warp and oil can like hell. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > Good you have decided not to use it. Martensite is the structure of the steel with high carbon content which forms heating it and remains cooling rapidly. Typical of wear resistant tools: files or chisels. I presume in mining is used beacause of its wear resistance given by it hardness. Among all repeat all type of steel AISI 400 serie is the most difficult to weld. However after welding post weld heat treatment is mandatory. DON?T USE IT. With your decision you have saved your deck. > > > Fair wind. Mauro > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > From: peter_d_wiley > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chemical composition (percentages) : > > > > > > C 0.020 Si 0.5 Mn 1.2 P 0.02 S 0.002 Ni 0.65 Cr 11.6 Ti 0.25 N 0.015 > > > > > > Claimed corrosion rate in marine environment is less than 5 microns pa where mild steel is 1.25mm pa. > > > > > > I have a pdf of the specifications; if you email me I'll send you a copy. Weldability and distortion on welding is a lot closer to mild steel than say 304 or 316. It is a martensitic steel not an austenitic steel. > > > > > > This stuff was designed for the mining industry supposedly. > > > > > > As I said I don't think I'll do this. The idea is attractive but the consequences of unanticipated complications are too high for the gains. With 4mm mild steel I know exactly what I'm dealing with. I'll buy one sheet of the 3CR12 and use it for doublers, wear strips and the like. > > > > > > As for the boat I was looking at, I'm going to pass. It's well put together but I simply cannot contemplate buying anything where they've buried the engine and shaft coupling so you need to be a contortionist to get to them, or unbolt most of the cockpit sole. I can just see how that's a good idea in a seaway... > > > > > > After 30 odd years playing with big ships I know one thing for sure. If you can't get to it easily, it won't be maintained. Then Murphy is simply waiting for the right situation to arise. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Peter, just for curiosity which kind of steel is "3CR12"? I do not see Ni in it. I am afraid it is a Type 400 steel e.g. SA 240 Gr. 405 (13% Cr. 0.6% Ni) This type of steels are "martensitic" and they harden easy and really crack. They are used to make knives because in annealed conditions are relatively soft and once machined to shape they are quenched and consequently hardened. They are silver color like true ss (Type 300, martensitic) but they are not really rust free. > > > > Mauro > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Who thinks a stainless steel deck is a good idea? > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 2:12 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:38AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Other concerns: > > > > > > > > > > Repairs. Excellent point. In an emergency you could patch with mild > > > > > steel using E309 rods, it'd just look ugly. Problem is driving a stick > > > > > welder > > > > > > > > Not if you use Brent's alternator-driven version, or the gadget that > > > > I've got (http://www.perfects witch.com/ mobiarc200x. htm). > > > > > > > > > In a real emergency I'd patch with 6mm plywood, sikaflex and a screw > > > > > gun actually. Metal drilling Tek screws are your friend. > > > > > > > > Yep, that's a good backup. I've _always_ got at least one fully-charged > > > > power pack for my big Rigid drill-driver, a few cut-down sheets of ply > > > > under the forward bunk cushion, and a box of metal-drilling screws > > > > aboard. I used to have something similar when I was cruising in a > > > > plastic boat, way back when - that's when I came up with the idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 20135|20135|2009-04-11 18:22:51|Donal Philby|16 tips|I ran across this site today describing 16 money saving tips that studies have shown were used to survive the Great Depression. Reading through them, it seems most are discussed right here on this group and lead to more affordable boats. http://www.billshrink.com/blog/16-depression-era-money-saving-tips/ Two years ago I had one of those chance conversations with a stranger, brief, very deep, right to the core of things, and then he was gone and I don't even know his name. He said he worked mostly up on Baffin Island but had a sailboat in BC. We talked in a boatyard chandlery. He described how in the Great Depression that over 100,000+ people lived in middle and northern coastal BC, many in subsistence farming, fishing, whatever they could do, isolated from the outer world. Survival mode. He asked if I knew what, if the world economy collapses, and oil is gone (along with most transportation), was most important possession anyone could have. While possibilities roamed through my head, he said: membership in a community. A place where you can provide a useful service to others and draw support from others when needed. I thought we'd get to talk again, but then he was gone. donal| 20136|20103|2009-04-12 02:03:08|kingsknight4life|Re: Steel mast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Andy Deering has a steel mast for a 36 for sale . It is 44 feet long , 6 inch OD tubing with a 1/8th inch wall. He went for an aluminium mast for his 36 footer and said the difference was unoticeable. > His email address is andy_lisa@... > Brent > SOLD Now how can I get it from WA to Vanc. Island? I was thinking of Brent's modified trailer idea but don't know if that will fly with customs or Bc ferrys? Rowland| 20137|20097|2009-04-12 02:31:54|Paul Wilson|Re: power source|Hi Brent, I was away the weekend so have just read some of the other excellent replies. If you are reading DC voltage, the fewer "lumps" and the smoother the DC the better but I doubt it is worth building your own capacitor. I don't think it really matters or a capacitor is needed if all you are running is a motor. Anything other than a plain motor, I would run on an inverter. I like the light bulb idea from Colin, a simple and easy solution. If I was running a motor direct off my alternator, I would run my motor as slow as I could, then run the power tool and slowly increase rpms until it seemed to run right and go no further. This is not much of an answer but it should work OK. One guy runs his power tools direct off batteries and he claims 70V DC runs his power tools fine. http://www.instructables.com/id/Run-AC-Tools-on-Batteries-Directly,-without- an-Inv I always have a cheap multimeter handy. You don't need a fancy one, but always be aware that in general they only read AC sine wave at 50 or 60 hertz accurately. A square wave coming out of an inverter or any DC component to the waveform can really cause screwy readings on some multimeters. Even a fancy, true rms meter can have problems with high frequency or noisy voltages. Thanks for the compliment but I think others here might have more practical knowledge than me when it comes to boats or grunty electrical systems. If you have a helicopter to fix, however, I may be your man.. Cheers, Paul Paul. Great to have a highly qualified instruments technician on the site. If I made a big, funky one time use capacitor out of foil and paper , and hooked it across the leads, would that smooth ou=t the humps and give me a more accurate reading, without affecting the voltage? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "sae140" wrote: > > Just want to echo what's already been said - using a 'mains' ac meter on frequencies much higher than 50-60Hz will show false readings. > The idea to connect a lamp and see just how brightly it shines is a crude but nevertheless neat method of checking you're in the right ball-park. Certainly if the lamp filament blows that would be a sure sign that you're over-cooking the voltage ! > > Suggestion - assuming you can get access to both ends of the alternator's stator windings, consider connecting up the windings in both Star and Delta modes, and to be really fancy, you could even install an old-style manual Star-Delta changeover switch from an ex-scrapyard 3-phase motor controller. > > Star config would give you maximum voltage at roughly 1/2 the max current, and Delta would give you maximum current at roughly half the max voltage, for any given rotational speed. For all intents and purposes, Star and Delta configurations would give you the equivalent of an electronic 'gearbox'. > > Colin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20138|20097|2009-04-12 09:12:22|sae140|Re: power source|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > I like the light bulb idea from Colin, a simple and easy > solution. BTW - the lamp idea was Ben's - credit where it's due :^) For more accuracy - even though a bog-standard analog AC meter cannot be relied upon to give an accurate absolute reading at higher frequencies, whatever readings are displayed *will* be reproducable, so there may be a workaround ... Essentially it means calibrating the AC meter for the frequencies to be encountered, and although this procedure is something of a production, it only needs to be done once - preferably when a mains supply is available. Ideally, it would be best if you could measure the voltage across just one alternator winding - that would then give a single sine wave to examine, as opposed to a voltage ripple at 6x the r.p.m. Then, if a resistor chain (say, a 1k and a 10R resistor in series) was connected across that winding, the voltage across the smaller resistor could then be measured, ideally with a kosher oscilloscope, but if not, then with a 'sound-card oscillosope' using one of the many free PC programs on offer. (I have several of these, if you need) Then, measure the displayed voltage from peak-to-peak, multiply it by the resistor chain ratio, and divide that figure by 0.707 to give the approximate rms AC voltage output at that particular frequency/r.p.m If you're looking for a particular voltage - say 110 volts - then obviously alter the r.p.m until you see the required target voltage displayed on the oscilloscope. Then - either make up a comparison table, or simply mark the analog AC meter's crystal with that reading. No matter what the absolute AC measurement 'error' is, the meter can then be used thereafter to display that voltage at that frequency. If you repeat this exercise for several r.p.m's/voltages, it might even be possible to draw up a workable calibration graph to show intermediate values, but it would be valid only for that particular meter and alternator set-up. Colin| 20139|20097|2009-04-12 13:17:12|Gordon Schnell|Re: power source|Hi Paul, Hi Brent I jumped into this discussion a little late....but measuring the DC voltages with a meter should not require a capacitor, the 12V house or starting batteries are all the Ècapacitance you would need. Concerning the use of DC power tools onboard: I bought up the older model 12V tools and am running them directly from my house batteries. The batteries never run dead...eheheheheheh!! Gord Paul Wilson wrote: > > > Hi Brent, > > I was away the weekend so have just read some of the other excellent > replies. If you are reading DC voltage, the fewer "lumps" and the > smoother the DC the better but I doubt it is worth building your own > capacitor. I don't think it really matters or a capacitor is needed if all > you are running is a motor. Anything other than a plain motor, I would run > on an inverter. I like the light bulb idea from Colin, a simple and easy > solution. If I was running a motor direct off my alternator, I would > run my > motor as slow as I could, then run the power tool and slowly increase rpms > until it seemed to run right and go no further. This is not much of an > answer but it should work OK. > > One guy runs his power tools direct off batteries and he claims 70V DC > runs > his power tools fine. > http://www.instructables.com/id/Run-AC-Tools-on-Batteries-Directly,-without- > > an-Inv > > I always have a cheap multimeter handy. You don't need a fancy one, but > always be aware that in general they only read AC sine wave at 50 or 60 > hertz accurately. A square wave coming out of an inverter or any DC > component to the waveform can really cause screwy readings on some > multimeters. Even a fancy, true rms meter can have problems with high > frequency or noisy voltages. > > Thanks for the compliment but I think others here might have more > practical > knowledge than me when it comes to boats or grunty electrical systems. If > you have a helicopter to fix, however, I may be your man.. > > Cheers, Paul > > Paul. > Great to have a highly qualified instruments technician on the site. > If I made a big, funky one time use capacitor out of foil and paper , and > hooked it across the leads, would that smooth ou=t the humps and give me a > more accurate reading, without affecting the voltage? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "sae140" wrote: > > > > Just want to echo what's already been said - using a 'mains' ac meter on > frequencies much higher than 50-60Hz will show false readings. > > The idea to connect a lamp and see just how brightly it shines is a > crude > but nevertheless neat method of checking you're in the right ball-park. > Certainly if the lamp filament blows that would be a sure sign that you're > over-cooking the voltage ! > > > > Suggestion - assuming you can get access to both ends of the > alternator's > stator windings, consider connecting up the windings in both Star and > Delta > modes, and to be really fancy, you could even install an old-style manual > Star-Delta changeover switch from an ex-scrapyard 3-phase motor > controller. > > > > Star config would give you maximum voltage at roughly 1/2 the max > current, > and Delta would give you maximum current at roughly half the max voltage, > for any given rotational speed. For all intents and purposes, Star and > Delta > configurations would give you the equivalent of an electronic 'gearbox'. > > > > Colin > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 20140|20097|2009-04-12 14:53:44|sae140|Re: power source|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Hi Paul, Hi Brent > I jumped into this discussion a little late....but measuring the DC > voltages with a meter should not require a capacitor, the 12V house or > starting batteries are all the Ècapacitance you would need. > Concerning the use of DC power tools onboard: I bought up the older > model 12V tools and am running them directly from my house batteries. > The batteries never run dead...eheheheheheh!! > Gord DC ?? I thought this was all about measuring AC ? Whoops ....| 20141|20097|2009-04-12 15:52:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: power source|On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 01:11:26PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Then, if a resistor chain (say, a 1k and a 10R resistor in series) was > connected across that winding, the voltage across the smaller resistor > could then be measured, ideally with a kosher oscilloscope, but if > not, then with a 'sound-card oscillosope' using one of the many free > PC programs on offer. (I have several of these, if you need) I just brough that up on another list - 'xoscope' under Linux works great, and you can make a nice probe out of a piece of coax and two resistors (essentially as you explained above, in a voltage divider.) It's a handy gadget to have on board. The problem with getting this stuff to make sense is in estimating what "power factor" a given waveform will produce. A true sine wave, for example, has a factor of 0.707 - i.e., the AC from the average household socket is actually about 170V peak-to-peak, but nobody really cares about that. The thing that we *do* care about - i.e., how much work it will actually do as compared to DC - is the RMS value, which makes it 170V * (1/square_root(2)) = 120V. By the same token (if I recall correctly), a sawtooth has a factor of 0.5, and a triangular waveform is somewhere around 0.610; square wave factors, of course, depend on the duty cycle. Now, if you look at the output of an alternator (tapped off before the rectiying diodes, that is), you might see anything from a fairly nice, close-to-sine wave output to a spiky, noisy shape that looks like an X-ray of a diseased intestine - plus maybe spikes from intermittent field contacts, etc. Sure, the peak voltage is easy to read... but how do you figure out what the actual "useful" (RMS-equivalent) output is? Thus, my idea of running a grinder. If you want to be all "scientific" about it, you can get an "AC RMS power meter" - which consists of a spinning metal disc that's heated by induction and a very precise temperature probe. In crude terms, not much different from listening to a spinning grinder, as far as I'm concerned. :) > Then, measure the displayed voltage from peak-to-peak, multiply it by > the resistor chain ratio, and divide that figure by 0.707 to give the > approximate rms AC voltage output at that particular frequency/r.p.m > If you're looking for a particular voltage - say 110 volts - then > obviously alter the r.p.m until you see the required target voltage > displayed on the oscilloscope. Whoops - not exactly. 110V AC P-t-P is about 78V RMS - about 30% lower than what you get out of a socket. It's one of those things you always have to remember about using a scope: it shows P-t-P voltage. To get those numbers to mean anything to us humans, you have to twiddle them. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20142|20097|2009-04-12 15:56:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: power source|On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 10:16:30AM -0700, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Concerning the use of DC power tools onboard: I bought up the older > model 12V tools and am running them directly from my house batteries. > The batteries never run dead...eheheheheheh!! I did that for a long time on my previous boat: took a bunch of (relatively good quality) 12V portable tools and rigged each of them up with an RCA jack for a power connection, then ran an "extension cord" terminating in an RCA plug from my batteries. All the tools instantly became 4X more powerful, and I didn't have to worry about it when their rechargeable batteries died... If I ever went back to a small, simple boat, this is exactly what I'd do for all my power tools. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20143|20097|2009-04-12 15:57:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: power source|On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 06:53:09PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > > > Hi Paul, Hi Brent > > I jumped into this discussion a little late....but measuring the DC > > voltages with a meter should not require a capacitor, the 12V house or > > starting batteries are all the Ècapacitance you would need. > > Concerning the use of DC power tools onboard: I bought up the older > > model 12V tools and am running them directly from my house batteries. > > The batteries never run dead...eheheheheheh!! > > Gord > > DC ?? I thought this was all about measuring AC ? Whoops .... As I understood it, it was. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20144|20097|2009-04-12 17:48:32|Paul Wilson|Re: power source|DC ?? I thought this was all about measuring AC ? Whoops .... It's both...an unregulated output from an alternator is normally DC with an AC component to it that may be a series of humps at a high frequency or "lumpy" DC as previously mentioned. The lumps may be so large that the waveform may be just as much AC as DC if you are looking at it with no load. I am assuming the diodes are still involved and hooked up in the circuit since the alternator has not been modified, according to Brent. Most of the quick and dirty on-board alternator welders are done this way. Bypass the diodes and go direct to the alternator windings and you may have pure AC if it is grounded properly, but I have never tried it. Basically the alternator is running with a voltage on the field so that it produces output, but the output is not hooked to a battery so the voltage climbs above the normal 12 volts and is only limited be the rpm or load that might be hooked to it. There are a few assumptions made here since not all alternators are equal. If you look at some of the alternator books, it's amazing the variety and the screwed up complicated way that some of them work. Before anyone tries this at home, they really need to understand how an alternator works, or they may end up shopping for a new one. If anyone is interested, there are lots of web pages regarding on-board or off-road welders using alternators on the internet as well as Brent's book. All of your comments have been correct, as far as I am concerned. Apologies, since I am sure you already know this but for others it may be confusing..it sure was to me when I was in school. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20145|20097|2009-04-13 00:20:48|Gordon Schnell|Re: power source|sae140 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , Gordon Schnell .> wrote: > > > > Hi Paul, Hi Brent > > I jumped into this discussion a little late....but measuring the DC > > voltages with a meter should not require a capacitor, the 12V house or > > starting batteries are all the Ècapacitance you would need. > > Concerning the use of DC power tools onboard: I bought up the older > > model 12V tools and am running them directly from my house batteries. > > The batteries never run dead...eheheheheheh !! > > Gord > > DC ?? I thought this was all about measuring AC ? Whoops .... > Hey, your right....me wrong.....jumped in late...didnot follow the history WHOOOPS Gord > > | 20146|20097|2009-04-13 04:04:18|sae140|Re: power source|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > Then, measure the displayed voltage from peak-to-peak, multiply it by > > the resistor chain ratio, and divide that figure by 0.707 to give the > > approximate rms AC voltage output at that particular frequency/r.p.m > > If you're looking for a particular voltage - say 110 volts - then > > obviously alter the r.p.m until you see the required target voltage > > displayed on the oscilloscope. > > Whoops - not exactly. 110V AC P-t-P is about 78V RMS - about 30% lower > than what you get out of a socket. It's one of those things you always > have to remember about using a scope: it shows P-t-P voltage. To get > those numbers to mean anything to us humans, you have to twiddle them. > :) Yep - not well worded - I realised that after I wrote it, but figured that the paragraph would be read 'as a whole'. Perhaps what I should have made clear is that the 'target voltage' here isn't the 110V end result, but rather the desired 'displayed voltage' (on the scope) referred to at the beginning of the paragraph - which of course is subjected to x 0.707 and the resistor-chain multiplier. Colin| 20147|20107|2009-04-13 05:12:58|Zoran R. Pualic|Re: Lawsuit|Sorry, meaning was lost in translation... If somebody lost money in some business, he would lose even more later on lawyers! Z. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kingsknight4life Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:40 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lawsuit --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Zoran R. Pualic" wrote: > > Hey Brent & Rowland, > > Old sentence "I lost money on gambling, but I lost even more on pulling out" > > Zoran, Belgrade > > (The lawyer) I dont get it.??? Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20148|20148|2009-04-13 11:10:17|SHANE ROTHWELL|16 Tips|Donal et all, Thanks very much for this posting. In 2005 from the Human rights group I'm involved with, I was pointed in the direction of information regarding what is really happening with the economy. Book, chapter and bloody verse the documentary "the money masters" nailed it & described in chillingly accurate terms, exactly what has transpired since last fall as well as the reasons for it and the mecanism (s) used for it's implementation. Now available on Youtube. It was published in 1996. Pissed off a lot of people trying to warn them. Was called a fool. Whilst we sold the middle class house in the suburbs of Vancouver I have no doubt that many laughed. We are now in a double wide mobile on the island, building greenhouses & taking on livestock......knuckling down so to speak. As now it's apparent even to the village idiot that something is very wrong, I believe that curcumstance have silenced the laughter. Too bad really as there is nothing I can do now and have become considerably more guarded in what I say after working my ass off & spent virtually everything I have trying to pull it together to be sure we're not caught in the bankers trap as so many will be. The present situation is only going to accelerate from here on, so if building a Brentboat is your saftey net solution, don't delay for anything, your on the right track. I just hope you can get it together before the shit really hits the fan. Shane Posted by: "Donal Philby" donalphilby@... donalphilby Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:22 pm (PDT) I ran across this site today describing 16 money saving tips that studies have shown were used to survive the Great Depression. Reading through them, it seems most are discussed right here on this group and lead to more affordable boats. http://www.billshri nk.com/blog/ 16-depression- era-money- saving-tips/ Two years ago I had one of those chance conversations with a stranger, brief, very deep, right to the core of things, and then he was gone and I don't even know his name. He said he worked mostly up on Baffin Island but had a sailboat in BC. We talked in a boatyard chandlery. He described how in the Great Depression that over 100,000+ people lived in middle and northern coastal BC, many in subsistence farming, fishing, whatever they could do, isolated from the outer world. Survival mode. He asked if I knew what, if the world economy collapses, and oil is gone (along with most transportation) , was most important possession anyone could have. While possibilities roamed through my head, he said: membership in a community. A place where you can provide a useful service to others and draw support from others when needed. I thought we'd get to talk again, but then he was gone. donal __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 20151|20148|2009-04-14 15:14:41|brentswain38|Re: 16 Tips|I rememebr hearing a story about an eastern European family in the 20's who had moved to California. They didn't trust banks so kept all their cash in a tin can. Everyone laughed at the stupuid immigrants not putting their money safely in the banks. Then the banks collapsed and they bought all the land around them for pennies on the dollar, and became multi billionairs. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > Donal et all, > > > Thanks very much for this posting. > > In 2005 from the Human rights group I'm involved with, I was pointed in the direction of information regarding what is really happening with the economy. Book, chapter and bloody verse the documentary "the money masters" nailed it & described in chillingly accurate terms, exactly what has transpired since last fall as well as the reasons for it and the mecanism (s) used for it's implementation. Now available on Youtube. It was published in 1996. > > Pissed off a lot of people trying to warn them. Was called a fool. Whilst we sold the middle class house in the suburbs of Vancouver I have no doubt that many laughed. We are now in a double wide mobile on the island, building greenhouses & taking on livestock......knuckling down so to speak. > > As now it's apparent even to the village idiot that something is very wrong, I believe that curcumstance have silenced the laughter. > Too bad really as there is nothing I can do now and have become considerably more guarded in what I say after working my ass off & spent virtually everything I have trying to pull it together to be sure we're not caught in the bankers trap as so many will be. > > The present situation is only going to accelerate from here on, so if building a Brentboat is your saftey net solution, don't delay for anything, your on the right track. I just hope you can get it together before the shit really hits the fan. > > Shane > > > > > > > > Posted by: "Donal Philby" donalphilby@... donalphilby > Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:22 pm (PDT) > > > I ran across this site today describing 16 money saving tips that studies have shown were used to survive the Great Depression. Reading through them, it seems most are discussed right here on this group and lead to more affordable boats. > > http://www.billshri nk.com/blog/ 16-depression- era-money- saving-tips/ > > Two years ago I had one of those chance conversations with a stranger, brief, very deep, right to the core of things, and then he was gone and I don't even know his name. He said he worked mostly up on Baffin Island but had a sailboat in BC. We talked in a boatyard chandlery. He described how in the Great Depression that over 100,000+ people lived in middle and northern coastal BC, many in subsistence farming, fishing, whatever they could do, isolated from the outer world. Survival mode. He asked if I knew what, if the world economy collapses, and oil is gone (along with most transportation) , was most important possession anyone could have. While possibilities roamed through my head, he said: membership in a community. A place where you can provide a useful service to others and draw support from others when needed. > > I thought we'd get to talk again, but then he was gone. > > donal > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > | 20152|20103|2009-04-14 15:19:56|brentswain38|Re: Steel mast|Actually the Port Angeles ferry is Washington state ferries as is the Anacortes ferry. Brian on the Ocean Boy has already done it , so it can be done. Once accoss the border, trucking companies run 40 ft flatdecks up the island all the time. Give several a call and get quotes. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Andy Deering has a steel mast for a 36 for sale . It is 44 feet long , 6 inch OD tubing with a 1/8th inch wall. He went for an aluminium mast for his 36 footer and said the difference was unoticeable. > > His email address is andy_lisa@ > > Brent > > > SOLD > > Now how can I get it from WA to Vanc. Island? I was thinking of Brent's modified trailer idea but don't know if that will fly with customs or Bc ferrys? > Rowland > | 20153|20094|2009-04-14 16:09:38|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works fine, > about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap till you > get it dialed in. > Tom > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > wrote: > > > > > First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS to > > carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll study up on > > the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire welded > > thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a Miller w/ > > Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20154|20148|2009-04-14 16:57:47|Paul Wilson|Re: 16 Tips|I remember hearing a story about an eastern European family in the 20's who had moved to California. They didn't trust banks so kept all their cash in a tin can. Everyone laughed at the stupuid immigrants not putting their money safely in the banks. Then the banks collapsed and they bought all the land around them for pennies on the dollar, and became multi billionairs. Brent Regarding protecting yourself.....   The way money is being printed hyper-inflation may destroy the value of the money in the tin can if you don't get your timing in your land purchase just right.  Putting your money in gold or a case of scotch is another alternative and easier to sell :).  Zimbabwe have just stopped using their own currency after it has become valueless.  They had inflation of 230,000 percent and have praised the US for following their lead.   Many believe the US and some European countries are going the same way.  Hyper or extremely high inflation may be coming once the money they have printed comes into the economy.  Canada should fare much better than the US since it has a better banking system and a resource based economy but this is a world-wide problem and it's not over.  I hope this guy is wrong..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlDNMB6wYmI&feature=related I highly recommend Chris Martenson's website to learn about the economy without getting too partisan about it.....he has a great "Crash Course" that teaches how banking, government and the economy really works.  Very interesting and an absolutely fantastic place to start.  I believe that the less money you have, the more important this is.   www.chrismartenson.com a bio  http://www.chrismartenson.com/about Apologies if you think this has nothing to do with sailing but unfortunately all this will have a huge effect on all of our cruising dreams.  Everybody has to be informed in able to make sense of the BS regularly served up everyday.  Now go buy the case of scotch. Cheers, Paul PS the 16 tips were great and exactly what the bank DOESN'T want you to do....live frugally and wisely.....they want you to spend your money, get in deeper debt, and "stimulate" the economy.  Thinking that more debt will solve a problem of too much debt shows how stupid the government really is....Brent has had it right all along. __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20155|20094|2009-04-14 17:08:29|Paul Wilson|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|>>>Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. I have seen a few aluminum boats with unpainted decks but they always used checker plate for non-skid. They also had to wear shoes on deck otherwise they would burn their feet in the sun.  Using SS plate I think you will have to paint it, probably with epoxy to get the non-skid to stick to it.   Using a rubber mat non-skid like deck tread or something like it on unpainted SS I think is asking for trouble.  I don't really see any advantage to SS if it has to be painted. Cheers, Paul __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20156|20107|2009-04-14 18:08:15|kingsknight4life|Re: Lawsuit|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran R. Pualic" wrote: > > Sorry, meaning was lost in translation... > > If somebody lost money in some business, he would lose even more later on > lawyers! > > Z. > >I get it now. :) Rowland| 20157|20094|2009-04-14 19:41:18|David Frantz|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|I still think you will want to paint the stainless. Stainless doesn't mean rust proof by anymeans. This doesn't even take into account the other issues with working with stainless. As you may know welding fumes can be toxic, stainless adds it's own twist to this issue. Everyone has already pointed out the workability issues so I won't repeat except to say that there seems to be little history of this alloy in marine use. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: > > Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar > epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the > ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. > Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: >> >> I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works >> fine, >> about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap >> till you >> get it dialed in. >> Tom >> >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 >> wrote: >> >>> >>> First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS >>> to >>> carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll >>> study up on >>> the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire >>> welded >>> thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a >>> Miller w/ >>> Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20158|20094|2009-04-14 21:45:54|Aaron Williams|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|Its one thing to ask about welding thin SS but what are you going to use it on? It almost sounds like you want to use it for the deck of a boat ? Or is it for parts? Aaron On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: > > Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar > epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the > ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. > Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Tom Mann wrote: >> >> I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works >> fine, >> about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap >> till you >> get it dialed in. >> Tom >> >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 >> wrote: >> >>> >>> First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS >>> to >>> carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll >>> study up on >>> the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire >>> welded >>> thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a >>> Miller w/ >>> Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ...! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20159|20148|2009-04-14 22:41:11|Donal Philby|Re: 16 Tips|>I rememebr hearing a story about an eastern European family in the 20's who had moved to California. They didn't trust banks so kept all their cash in a tin can. Everyone laughed at the stupuid immigrants not putting their money safely in the banks. Then the banks collapsed and they bought all the land around them for pennies on the dollar, and became multi billionairs. > Brent >> In 2005 from the Human rights group I'm involved with, I was pointed in the direction of information regarding what is really happening with the economy. >> Shane I've seen the Money Masters. I would to anyone suggest spending the time to watch and contemplate The Crash Course at http://www.chrismartenson.com/ It takes about 3 1/2 hours on video. Worth every minute. Some of the finance is US-centric, but most of it is global. It is not so much about conspiracy, but a look at culminations that have caught up with us. Martenson concludes that the next 20 years are not going to be like the last 20 and we'd better figure out how we as individuals are going to respond. At any rate, read Maude Barlow's Too Close for Comfort to find Canada's place in the scheme of things (pun intended). I don't mean for any of this to be political (boats are universal), but the 16 tips just so mimicked the Origami philosophy that I couldn't help passing it on. We have a lifeboat, strong, mostly simple and easy to maintain and I'm very glad of it. donal| 20160|20160|2009-04-15 10:50:45|prairiemaidca|Rigging Wire|Hi All; Can anyone give me a brand name or the name of a supplier in western Canada that would stock the low stretch wire for the rig. The oil patch out here on the prairies uses lots of wire but I want to do some homework on actual brands etc. I want to start looking now for Prairie Maids wire so I can erect the mast when I've finished assembling it. The other item I need to look for is a boom. What is the suitable dia.size of aluminum pipe for the 36 hull. And on that note what are the pros and cons for having the main in a track on the boom or having it loose. I've been watching the volvo open ocean races on t.v. just to see what their equipment looks like. I can't see anything that looks useful for the average working man that wants to go long distance cruising on very limited funds. Fun to watch the speed that they are able to obtain though. Martin.| 20161|20160|2009-04-15 11:04:54|Donal Philby|Re: Rigging Wire|Ditto, A friend about to launch a home built boat was just asking sources of 1/4 inch 7x7 galvanized wire and appropriate turnbuckles at reasonable prices. One place he asked wanted as much for galv turnbuckles as West Marine wants for bronze. donal -----Original Message----- >From: prairiemaidca >Hi All; Can anyone give me a brand name or the name of a supplier in western Canada that would stock the low stretch wire for the rig. | 20163|20160|2009-04-15 18:33:46|kingsknight4life|Re: Rigging Wire|Martin Certified wire rope in Nisku has 1x7 galvanized wire. rowland| 20164|20160|2009-04-15 19:48:53|brentswain38|Re: Rigging Wire|5 inch OD with a 1/8th wall thickness will be OK for the boom in aluminium. Scrapyards have a lot of high tensile 1X7 galv wire. The sch 180 is very hard to bend , so when you see it in a scraspyard , it will have few kinks in it. The soft stuff will bend like lead and thus will have lots of kinks in it. Try bend a piece and you will see what it is quickly. 5/16th sch 180 has a breaking strength of 11,500 lbs., 7X7 is easier to work with , but with smaller strands, will lose it's strength much more quickly when it shows the first signs of rust. It's also more expensive.Once it is up and painted you don't have to work with it for a long time, if it is 1X7. Hydro , and Telus also uses a lot of it. Most telephone and power poles are held up by it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi All; Can anyone give me a brand name or the name of a supplier in western Canada that would stock the low stretch wire for the rig. The oil patch out here on the prairies uses lots of wire but I want to do some homework on actual brands etc. I want to start looking now for Prairie Maids wire so I can erect the mast when I've finished assembling it. The other item I need to look for is a boom. What is the suitable dia.size of aluminum pipe for the 36 hull. And on that note what are the pros and cons for having the main in a track on the boom or having it loose. I've been watching the volvo open ocean races on t.v. just to see what their equipment looks like. I can't see anything that looks useful for the average working man that wants to go long distance cruising on very limited funds. Fun to watch the speed that they are able to obtain though. Martin. > | 20165|20097|2009-04-15 19:54:03|brentswain38|Re: power source|I have been using a 12 volt drill for over a decade no problems. Wish I had changed the keyless ( brainless) chuch for a proper keyed chuck as soon as I bought the drill. Now I can't get the brainless one off. It is handy for small jobs , but no comparison with the one I run off my alternator when it comes to power. I haven't found a 12 volt angle grinder, and don't belive I ever will find one with the power of my ten amp makita, which runs fine off the alternator. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 10:16:30AM -0700, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > > > Concerning the use of DC power tools onboard: I bought up the older > > model 12V tools and am running them directly from my house batteries. > > The batteries never run dead...eheheheheheh!! > > I did that for a long time on my previous boat: took a bunch of > (relatively good quality) 12V portable tools and rigged each of them up > with an RCA jack for a power connection, then ran an "extension cord" > terminating in an RCA plug from my batteries. All the tools instantly > became 4X more powerful, and I didn't have to worry about it when their > rechargeable batteries died... > > If I ever went back to a small, simple boat, this is exactly what I'd do > for all my power tools. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20166|20094|2009-04-15 19:55:30|brentswain38|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|SS weldinbg spatter makes good nonskid. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > > I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works fine, > > about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap till you > > get it dialed in. > > Tom > > > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > > wrote: > > > > > > > > First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS to > > > carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll study up on > > > the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire welded > > > thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a Miller w/ > > > Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 20167|20160|2009-04-15 20:03:45|brentswain38|Re: Rigging Wire|Last time we bought rigging wire from a scrapyard , enough 5/16th 1X7 galv to rig a 36 footer , new off the reel, cost $24. Last summer, 5/8th galv turnbuckles cost $26, same as I paid 25 years ago. Now they have gone up to $36, so I will wait for the CDN$ to climb and bring the price back down. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 5 inch OD with a 1/8th wall thickness will be OK for the boom in aluminium. > Scrapyards have a lot of high tensile 1X7 galv wire. The sch 180 is very hard to bend , so when you see it in a scraspyard , it will have few kinks in it. The soft stuff will bend like lead and thus will have lots of kinks in it. Try bend a piece and you will see what it is quickly. 5/16th sch 180 has a breaking strength of 11,500 lbs., > 7X7 is easier to work with , but with smaller strands, will lose it's strength much more quickly when it shows the first signs of rust. It's also more expensive.Once it is up and painted you don't have to work with it for a long time, if it is 1X7. > Hydro , and Telus also uses a lot of it. Most telephone and power poles are held up by it. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > > > Hi All; Can anyone give me a brand name or the name of a supplier in western Canada that would stock the low stretch wire for the rig. The oil patch out here on the prairies uses lots of wire but I want to do some homework on actual brands etc. I want to start looking now for Prairie Maids wire so I can erect the mast when I've finished assembling it. The other item I need to look for is a boom. What is the suitable dia.size of aluminum pipe for the 36 hull. And on that note what are the pros and cons for having the main in a track on the boom or having it loose. I've been watching the volvo open ocean races on t.v. just to see what their equipment looks like. I can't see anything that looks useful for the average working man that wants to go long distance cruising on very limited funds. Fun to watch the speed that they are able to obtain though. Martin. > > > | 20170|20169|2009-04-16 13:20:16|Grant Henry|Re: Get Breaking News Toolbar for Your Web Browser Toolbar - Free Do|Is there any way to get this crap off the list? I'm a luddite at heart and may be misinformed, but if I block this particular sender my fear is blocking all postings from the list. Grant From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of samsung_mwe@... Sent: April 16, 2009 9:25 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Get Breaking News Toolbar for Your Web Browser Toolbar - Free Download Get Breaking News Toolbar for Your Web Browser Toolbar - Free Download Our News Ticker Toolbar is 100% Free and Safe. It will not monitor your web surfing activities or install any spyware or adware on your computer. You may easily uninstall it at any time by clicking on the uninstall button in the toolbar. Download Now FREE >>> http://easylnk.com/?8162 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20171|20171|2009-04-16 14:47:39|brentswain38|spam on this site|Alex Is there any way you can delete and block the spam that's appearing on this site? Brent| 20172|20094|2009-04-16 15:20:51|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|The whole boat. Hull, decks, and fittings. This is an economic issue. If I can buy SS for less than mild+paint, it seems like it's worth investigating. There are drawbacks to be sure. I have a sandblaster (a BIG one) and I don't mind blasting. I agree that even SS should be painted but I'm hoping that I could get away w/ cheap TrueValue/HomeDepot enamel for the hull while using Herculiner (pick-up truck bed liner) for high traffic areas of the deck. I can't get abraded/primed steel where I'm at and when you add up the cost of marine coatings (then double it since the inside has to be painted as well), things get real spendy, real fast. Plus, I hate spraying toxic goo all over creation.Thx.Andy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Its one thing to ask about welding thin SS but what are you going to use it on? It almost sounds like you want to use it for the deck of a boat ? Or is it for parts? > Aaron > > > > > > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > wrote: > > > > > Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar > > epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the > > ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. > > Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Tom Mann wrote: > >> > >> I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works > >> fine, > >> about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap > >> till you > >> get it dialed in. > >> Tom > >> > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS > >>> to > >>> carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll > >>> study up on > >>> the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire > >>> welded > >>> thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a > >>> Miller w/ > >>> Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >>> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ...! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20173|20094|2009-04-16 15:43:07|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|I suspect that the "little history" has more to do with the cost of SS compared to mild steel. I haven't decided to do this, I'm just trying to determine if it's worthwhile since I can get the SS for less than mild+coatings.Thx.Andy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > I still think you will want to paint the stainless. Stainless > doesn't mean rust proof by anymeans. > > This doesn't even take into account the other issues with working with > stainless. As you may know welding fumes can be toxic, stainless adds > it's own twist to this issue. Everyone has already pointed out the > workability issues so I won't repeat except to say that there seems to > be little history of this alloy in marine use. > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > wrote: > > > > > Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar > > epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the > > ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. > > Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > >> > >> I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works > >> fine, > >> about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap > >> till you > >> get it dialed in. > >> Tom > >> > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS > >>> to > >>> carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll > >>> study up on > >>> the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire > >>> welded > >>> thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a > >>> Miller w/ > >>> Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 20174|20094|2009-04-16 15:49:44|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|I suspect that the "little history" of SS in marine use has more to do with its higher cost when compared to mild steel. I haven't decided to do this but if I can get SS for less than mild+coatings, then it's worth considering. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > I still think you will want to paint the stainless. Stainless > doesn't mean rust proof by anymeans. > > This doesn't even take into account the other issues with working with > stainless. As you may know welding fumes can be toxic, stainless adds > it's own twist to this issue. Everyone has already pointed out the > workability issues so I won't repeat except to say that there seems to > be little history of this alloy in marine use. > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > wrote: > > > > > Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar > > epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the > > ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. > > Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > >> > >> I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works > >> fine, > >> about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap > >> till you > >> get it dialed in. > >> Tom > >> > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS > >>> to > >>> carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll > >>> study up on > >>> the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire > >>> welded > >>> thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a > >>> Miller w/ > >>> Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 20175|20094|2009-04-16 15:50:52|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|I suspect that the "little history" of SS in marine use has more to do with its higher cost when compared to mild steel. I haven't decided to do this but if I can get SS for less than mild+coatings, then it's worth considering. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > I still think you will want to paint the stainless. Stainless > doesn't mean rust proof by anymeans. > > This doesn't even take into account the other issues with working with > stainless. As you may know welding fumes can be toxic, stainless adds > it's own twist to this issue. Everyone has already pointed out the > workability issues so I won't repeat except to say that there seems to > be little history of this alloy in marine use. > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > wrote: > > > > > Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar > > epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the > > ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. > > Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > >> > >> I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works > >> fine, > >> about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap > >> till you > >> get it dialed in. > >> Tom > >> > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS > >>> to > >>> carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll > >>> study up on > >>> the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire > >>> welded > >>> thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a > >>> Miller w/ > >>> Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 20176|20094|2009-04-16 16:25:24|David Frantz|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|No that isn't what I'm concerned about, that is the cost of stainless. What we don't know is how this specific alloy will behave in marine structural environments. That is will it work hardened, crack, corrode or in other ways cause more problems than it solves. One thing with many stainless alloys is that they will work harden which may lead to problems for certain usages. Stainless also suffers from crevice corrosion. It is not like I'm saying this material is a bad thing, as I'm far from an expert when it comes to marine structures. All I'm saying is I wouldn't use the material unless I had an understanding about how it would perform on a ship. Experience is a good thing to rely on here, along with manufactures data. Frankly it is the same thing I'd say if you where to suggest an odd aluminum alloy, it just makes sense to stick with alloys known to perform well for marine usage. Dave mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: > I suspect that the "little history" of SS in marine use has more to do with its higher cost when compared to mild steel. I haven't decided to do this but if I can get SS for less than mild+coatings, then it's worth considering. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > >> I still think you will want to paint the stainless. Stainless >> doesn't mean rust proof by anymeans. >> >> This doesn't even take into account the other issues with working with >> stainless. As you may know welding fumes can be toxic, stainless adds >> it's own twist to this issue. Everyone has already pointed out the >> workability issues so I won't repeat except to say that there seems to >> be little history of this alloy in marine use. >> >> >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 >> wrote: >> >> >>> Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar >>> epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the >>> ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. >>> Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: >>> >>>> I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works >>>> fine, >>>> about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap >>>> till you >>>> get it dialed in. >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS >>>>> to >>>>> carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll >>>>> study up on >>>>> the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire >>>>> welded >>>>> thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a >>>>> Miller w/ >>>>> Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 20177|20094|2009-04-16 18:06:33|brentswain38|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|There was a 28 footer called Seven Seas , built of stainless ,that did a circumnavigation back in the 60's, no problems. Michael Bardiex was unhappy with his stainless boat. SS welding rod is very expensive. Do you have a good affordable source of ss welding rods? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > The whole boat. Hull, decks, and fittings. This is an economic issue. If I can buy SS for less than mild+paint, it seems like it's worth investigating. There are drawbacks to be sure. I have a sandblaster (a BIG one) and I don't mind blasting. I agree that even SS should be painted but I'm hoping that I could get away w/ cheap TrueValue/HomeDepot enamel for the hull while using Herculiner (pick-up truck bed liner) for high traffic areas of the deck. I can't get abraded/primed steel where I'm at and when you add up the cost of marine coatings (then double it since the inside has to be painted as well), things get real spendy, real fast. Plus, I hate spraying toxic goo all over creation.Thx.Andy > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Its one thing to ask about welding thin SS but what are you going to use it on? It almost sounds like you want to use it for the deck of a boat ? Or is it for parts? > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar > > > epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the > > > ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. > > > Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Tom Mann wrote: > > >> > > >> I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works > > >> fine, > > >> about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap > > >> till you > > >> get it dialed in. > > >> Tom > > >> > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> > > >>> First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS > > >>> to > > >>> carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll > > >>> study up on > > >>> the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire > > >>> welded > > >>> thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a > > >>> Miller w/ > > >>> Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > >>> > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >>> origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ...! Groups Links > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 20178|20094|2009-04-16 19:17:05|Ben Okopnik|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 04:19:51PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > No that isn't what I'm concerned about, that is the cost of stainless. > What we don't know is how this specific alloy will behave in marine > structural environments. That is will it work hardened, crack, > corrode or in other ways cause more problems than it solves. One > thing with many stainless alloys is that they will work harden which may > lead to problems for certain usages. Stainless also suffers from > crevice corrosion. Just as a personal anecdote, crevice corrosion just cost me about $500 and a hell of a lot of labor. About three weeks ago, my dinghy broke loose during a shakedown cruise, washed up on a beach in a state-run park, flipped over in the heavy seas, and drowned the 15HP Yamaha motor. I had to bring the boat into a marina, borrow a car from a friend, get the park rangers to drive me out there, get the dinghy (~350 lbs. with motor) loaded up on a truck without help, and drag it over to the park's maintenance shed. Then, I had to borrow a truck and a trailer, come back and retrieve it on another day, reassemble and clean everything, rewire the destroyed electrical system (wiring to the bow light and bilge pump), replace the lost bits, completely disassemble, clean, and reassemble every part of the motor, and replace the broken off tiller/throttle to boot. The dinghy had been secured to the boat by a very heavy piece of polypro line; the thing that broke was the bow eye, a beefy U-bolt at the front. I photographed the remains (the two threaded pieces with the nuts still in place) as a reminder to myself, and to anyone who thinks that stainless is the perfect answer to corrosion. http://okopnik.com/images/bow_eye.jpg > It is not like I'm saying this material is a bad thing, as I'm far from > an expert when it comes to marine structures. All I'm saying is I > wouldn't use the material unless I had an understanding about how it > would perform on a ship. Well, 300-series stainless steels are pretty good for the marine environment - but I don't know that it's the right thing for a hull. Mind you, a number of SS hulls have been built - e.g., http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/h/h-Pages/Image52.html - but I have no idea what alloy they went with. If I was going to do that, I'd sure as hell find out about the previous attempts, what worked, and what didn't. Searching Google for 'stainless steel hull', at the very least, would be instructive. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20179|20094|2009-04-17 01:23:07|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|Ben ... In case You might be wondering... The "Sisu" meaning guts is one of 4 icebreakers in service in Helsinki, Finland, where I come from. One or maybe 2 of the 4 are/were nuclear. IIRC its called upon to break upto 1-2 m thick ice for year-round maritime service from the port of Helsinki. However, with the ever-warming winters, the amount of service needed from the icebreakers has been steadily decreasing for the last 20+ years. 20 years ago we used to be able to run cars on the open, frozen sea, during winter, as an ice-race for fun. This has been increasingly impossible for the last 10+ years, except in the far north. I have never heard that it was made from stainless (does not mean it isn´t, just never heard about it). Cheers, Hannu Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 04:19:51PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > No that isn't what I'm concerned about, that is the cost of stainless. > > What we don't know is how this specific alloy will behave in marine > > structural environments. That is will it work hardened, crack, > > corrode or in other ways cause more problems than it solves. One > > thing with many stainless alloys is that they will work harden which > may > > lead to problems for certain usages. Stainless also suffers from > > crevice corrosion. > > Just as a personal anecdote, crevice corrosion just cost me about $500 > and a hell of a lot of labor. > > About three weeks ago, my dinghy broke loose during a shakedown cruise, > washed up on a beach in a state-run park, flipped over in the heavy > seas, and drowned the 15HP Yamaha motor. I had to bring the boat into a > marina, borrow a car from a friend, get the park rangers to drive me out > there, get the dinghy (~350 lbs. with motor) loaded up on a truck > without help, and drag it over to the park's maintenance shed. Then, I > had to borrow a truck and a trailer, come back and retrieve it on > another day, reassemble and clean everything, rewire the destroyed > electrical system (wiring to the bow light and bilge pump), replace the > lost bits, completely disassemble, clean, and reassemble every part of > the motor, and replace the broken off tiller/throttle to boot. > > The dinghy had been secured to the boat by a very heavy piece of polypro > line; the thing that broke was the bow eye, a beefy U-bolt at the front. > I photographed the remains (the two threaded pieces with the nuts still > in place) as a reminder to myself, and to anyone who thinks that > stainless is the perfect answer to corrosion. > > http://okopnik.com/images/bow_eye.jpg > > > > It is not like I'm saying this material is a bad thing, as I'm far from > > an expert when it comes to marine structures. All I'm saying is I > > wouldn't use the material unless I had an understanding about how it > > would perform on a ship. > > Well, 300-series stainless steels are pretty good for the marine > environment - but I don't know that it's the right thing for a hull. > Mind you, a number of SS hulls have been built - e.g., > http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/h/h-Pages/Image52.html > - > but I have no idea what alloy they went with. If I was going to do that, > I'd sure as hell find out about the previous attempts, what worked, and > what didn't. Searching Google for 'stainless steel hull', at the very > least, would be instructive. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 20180|20180|2009-04-17 08:23:47|fenixrises|Swain Boats at sea|Hi all, Since many of you are involved in building or planning to build I thought it would be a good idea to let you know that there are BS boats out there sailing. I just completed a circumnavigation. During my travels I saw and met the owners of two Swain boats. The first was a younger Australian. I met him in Phuket, Thailand. He had a red 31' that he bought in OZ. At the time I met him he and his Thai girlfriend were planning to go to the Chagos Islands, part of BIOT. This was at the end of '07. Next I met a Canadian in St. Thomas, earlier this year. He started his boat, a 36', in Vancover and finished it in Ontario(?) I think. He and his companion had sailed down to Trinidad/Tabago and were planning to head back up north. Later plans were to truck the boat back to Vancover and then spend some time cruising the Pac NW. Take care, Fred| 20181|20094|2009-04-17 08:40:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 07:22:45AM +0200, gcode fi (hanermo) wrote: > Ben ... In case You might be wondering... > The "Sisu" meaning guts is one of 4 icebreakers in service in Helsinki, > Finland, where I come from. Oddly enough, this is one of the very, very few words of Finnish (besides the amusingly palindromic 'saippuakauppias') that I know: when I first read Robert Heinlein's works, more than 30 years ago, he wrote about a spaceship (crewed by Finns) called "Sisu". I was curious, and looked it up. > One or maybe 2 of the 4 are/were nuclear. > IIRC its called upon to break upto 1-2 m thick ice for year-round > maritime service from the port of Helsinki. However, with the > ever-warming winters, the amount of service needed from the icebreakers > has been steadily decreasing for the last 20+ years. > 20 years ago we used to be able to run cars on the open, frozen sea, > during winter, as an ice-race for fun. This has been increasingly > impossible for the last 10+ years, except in the far north. Of course, since THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS GLOBAL WARMING (at least according to some very loud people), that's impossible. :) > I have never heard that it was made from stainless (does not mean it > isn´t, just never heard about it). The link that I provided came from the University of Cambridge, from a paper on stainless steels: http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2005/Stainless_steels/stainless.html As the saying goes, "I'm selling it for the same price as I bought it." :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20182|20182|2009-04-17 10:50:43|Gary Prebble|Skeg....|Brent...how often should the anti freeze be changed in the skeg? Thanks...Gary| 20183|20182|2009-04-17 13:47:01|brentswain38|Re: Skeg....|I have rarely changed mine , but I had a leak for a while that did the changing. I have been told that as long as it is still green it's non acidic, and no problem. Litmus paper will tell you. I may still have some. Are you back on the coast? I'm in Comox , hoping to head back to Lasquetti in the next couple of weeks. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Brent...how often should the anti freeze be changed in the skeg? > > Thanks...Gary > | 20184|20094|2009-04-17 13:56:18|brentswain38|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|Bow eyes tend to get crevice corrosion where they sit in a soggy hole. Best fabricate your own bow eye , not relying on any one or two bolts , but spreading the load over many bolts . Perhaps some of the thru bolts could be bronze. Best splice your bow line thru a bronze thimble. Make the whole towing arrangement, including the eye, stronger than the breaking strength of the half inch towing rope. I welded the ss 3/8th eye to an ss plate, keeping the eye out in the air, eliminating the chance of crevice corrosion , then bolting the plate thru the bow with several 3/8th ss bolts. Think I will change some of hese bolts for bronze. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 04:19:51PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > No that isn't what I'm concerned about, that is the cost of stainless. > > What we don't know is how this specific alloy will behave in marine > > structural environments. That is will it work hardened, crack, > > corrode or in other ways cause more problems than it solves. One > > thing with many stainless alloys is that they will work harden which may > > lead to problems for certain usages. Stainless also suffers from > > crevice corrosion. > > Just as a personal anecdote, crevice corrosion just cost me about $500 > and a hell of a lot of labor. > > About three weeks ago, my dinghy broke loose during a shakedown cruise, > washed up on a beach in a state-run park, flipped over in the heavy > seas, and drowned the 15HP Yamaha motor. I had to bring the boat into a > marina, borrow a car from a friend, get the park rangers to drive me out > there, get the dinghy (~350 lbs. with motor) loaded up on a truck > without help, and drag it over to the park's maintenance shed. Then, I > had to borrow a truck and a trailer, come back and retrieve it on > another day, reassemble and clean everything, rewire the destroyed > electrical system (wiring to the bow light and bilge pump), replace the > lost bits, completely disassemble, clean, and reassemble every part of > the motor, and replace the broken off tiller/throttle to boot. > > The dinghy had been secured to the boat by a very heavy piece of polypro > line; the thing that broke was the bow eye, a beefy U-bolt at the front. > I photographed the remains (the two threaded pieces with the nuts still > in place) as a reminder to myself, and to anyone who thinks that > stainless is the perfect answer to corrosion. > > http://okopnik.com/images/bow_eye.jpg > > > It is not like I'm saying this material is a bad thing, as I'm far from > > an expert when it comes to marine structures. All I'm saying is I > > wouldn't use the material unless I had an understanding about how it > > would perform on a ship. > > Well, 300-series stainless steels are pretty good for the marine > environment - but I don't know that it's the right thing for a hull. > Mind you, a number of SS hulls have been built - e.g., > http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/h/h-Pages/Image52.html - > but I have no idea what alloy they went with. If I was going to do that, > I'd sure as hell find out about the previous attempts, what worked, and > what didn't. Searching Google for 'stainless steel hull', at the very > least, would be instructive. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20185|20185|2009-04-17 15:23:34|prairiemaidca|Wire and Boom|Thanks all for the info on the boom material and the wire. Roland have you had a chance to look in any of the yards around the Edm. area for wire like Brent described. Also I'm still curious as to the advantages or disavantages of a loose footed main. The info about Swains out sailing the world is very interesting and appreciated. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 20186|20185|2009-04-17 19:53:45|brentswain38|Re: Wire and Boom|My last two boats had tracks on the main foot. I haven't bothered with a track on my current boat and in 25 years haven't had a reason to. I've been loose footed for 25 years , no problem. It can put a bit more bending load on the boom, but no problem with a stiff enough boom. At any rate , you could try loose footed, and if you don't like it, you can screw track on in minutes, anytime. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Thanks all for the info on the boom material and the wire. Roland have you had a chance to look in any of the yards around the Edm. area for wire like Brent described. Also I'm still curious as to the advantages or disavantages of a loose footed main. The info about Swains out sailing the world is very interesting and appreciated. > Martin (Prairie Maid) > | 20187|20185|2009-04-17 22:16:01|Carl Anderson|Re: Wire and Boom|My main is loose footed also. Its nice to be able to loosen the outhaul & get a fuller sail shape. Of course my boom is very stiff being what it is. Right now I'm on Lopez doing the interior finishing. Been sanding & painting the vee berth & head area. Next up is the galley, then the pilothouse! Carl sv-mom.com brentswain38 wrote: > > > My last two boats had tracks on the main foot. I haven't bothered with > a track on my current boat and in 25 years haven't had a reason to. > I've been loose footed for 25 years , no problem. It can put a bit > more bending load on the boom, but no problem with a stiff enough > boom. At any rate , you could try loose footed, and if you don't like > it, you can screw track on in minutes, anytime. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "prairiemaidca" > wrote: > > > > Thanks all for the info on the boom material and the wire. Roland > have you had a chance to look in any of the yards around the Edm. area > for wire like Brent described. Also I'm still curious as to the > advantages or disavantages of a loose footed main. The info about > Swains out sailing the world is very interesting and appreciated. > > Martin (Prairie Maid) > > > > | 20190|20094|2009-04-18 14:18:01|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|Do we know why he was unhappy? Material performance or cost? I bought some SS rod pretty cheaply when a local business closed but I had planned to use wire since I have a wire feed welder. If I do it that is-still not sure. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There was a 28 footer called Seven Seas , built of stainless ,that did a circumnavigation back in the 60's, no problems. Michael Bardiex was unhappy with his stainless boat. > SS welding rod is very expensive. Do you have a good affordable source of ss welding rods? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > > > > > The whole boat. Hull, decks, and fittings. This is an economic issue. If I can buy SS for less than mild+paint, it seems like it's worth investigating. There are drawbacks to be sure. I have a sandblaster (a BIG one) and I don't mind blasting. I agree that even SS should be painted but I'm hoping that I could get away w/ cheap TrueValue/HomeDepot enamel for the hull while using Herculiner (pick-up truck bed liner) for high traffic areas of the deck. I can't get abraded/primed steel where I'm at and when you add up the cost of marine coatings (then double it since the inside has to be painted as well), things get real spendy, real fast. Plus, I hate spraying toxic goo all over creation.Thx.Andy > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > > Its one thing to ask about welding thin SS but what are you going to use it on? It almost sounds like you want to use it for the deck of a boat ? Or is it for parts? > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. After researching the cost of the zinc primers and coal tar > > > > epoxies, I'm revisiting the idea of using stainless. I can get the > > > > ss (overstock liquidated inventory) for less than mild steel+paint. > > > > Still have to work out other issues like glare off the deck,etc,etc. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Tom Mann wrote: > > > >> > > > >> I welded 16 gage with .030 304L wire with tri mix gas and it works > > > >> fine, > > > >> about the same as running mild steel. Just practice a bit on scrap > > > >> till you > > > >> get it dialed in. > > > >> Tom > > > >> > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, mr_lugnuts_2007 > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> First, thx for all the replies to my recent posting for welding SS > > > >>> to > > > >>> carbon. I should have checked the archives b4 posting so I'll > > > >>> study up on > > > >>> the other postings. I would like to hear from anyone who has wire > > > >>> welded > > > >>> thin ss sheetgoods say, 14 to 18 GA. Real PITA? I'd be using a > > > >>> Miller w/ > > > >>> Argon/CO2 shielding and I have an average skill level.Thx.Lugnuts > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > >>> > > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >>> origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ...! Groups Links > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 20191|20094|2009-04-18 14:28:19|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|Hard to tell from the pix but I'm assuming the U part broke off where the nuts are? Maybe due to cyclical flexing and work harding? If that's the case, mild steel will work harden and snap off in the same way. It's not clear to me if that was a design failure or an inappropriate choice of steel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 04:19:51PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > No that isn't what I'm concerned about, that is the cost of stainless. > > What we don't know is how this specific alloy will behave in marine > > structural environments. That is will it work hardened, crack, > > corrode or in other ways cause more problems than it solves. One > > thing with many stainless alloys is that they will work harden which may > > lead to problems for certain usages. Stainless also suffers from > > crevice corrosion. > > Just as a personal anecdote, crevice corrosion just cost me about $500 > and a hell of a lot of labor. > > About three weeks ago, my dinghy broke loose during a shakedown cruise, > washed up on a beach in a state-run park, flipped over in the heavy > seas, and drowned the 15HP Yamaha motor. I had to bring the boat into a > marina, borrow a car from a friend, get the park rangers to drive me out > there, get the dinghy (~350 lbs. with motor) loaded up on a truck > without help, and drag it over to the park's maintenance shed. Then, I > had to borrow a truck and a trailer, come back and retrieve it on > another day, reassemble and clean everything, rewire the destroyed > electrical system (wiring to the bow light and bilge pump), replace the > lost bits, completely disassemble, clean, and reassemble every part of > the motor, and replace the broken off tiller/throttle to boot. > > The dinghy had been secured to the boat by a very heavy piece of polypro > line; the thing that broke was the bow eye, a beefy U-bolt at the front. > I photographed the remains (the two threaded pieces with the nuts still > in place) as a reminder to myself, and to anyone who thinks that > stainless is the perfect answer to corrosion. > > http://okopnik.com/images/bow_eye.jpg > > > It is not like I'm saying this material is a bad thing, as I'm far from > > an expert when it comes to marine structures. All I'm saying is I > > wouldn't use the material unless I had an understanding about how it > > would perform on a ship. > > Well, 300-series stainless steels are pretty good for the marine > environment - but I don't know that it's the right thing for a hull. > Mind you, a number of SS hulls have been built - e.g., > http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/h/h-Pages/Image52.html - > but I have no idea what alloy they went with. If I was going to do that, > I'd sure as hell find out about the previous attempts, what worked, and > what didn't. Searching Google for 'stainless steel hull', at the very > least, would be instructive. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20193|20185|2009-04-18 17:13:56|brentswain38|Re: Wire and Boom|Carl Are you comming north this summer? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > My main is loose footed also. > Its nice to be able to loosen the outhaul & get a fuller sail shape. > Of course my boom is very stiff being what it is. > > Right now I'm on Lopez doing the interior finishing. > Been sanding & painting the vee berth & head area. > Next up is the galley, then the pilothouse! > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > My last two boats had tracks on the main foot. I haven't bothered with > > a track on my current boat and in 25 years haven't had a reason to. > > I've been loose footed for 25 years , no problem. It can put a bit > > more bending load on the boom, but no problem with a stiff enough > > boom. At any rate , you could try loose footed, and if you don't like > > it, you can screw track on in minutes, anytime. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "prairiemaidca" > > wrote: > > > > > > Thanks all for the info on the boom material and the wire. Roland > > have you had a chance to look in any of the yards around the Edm. area > > for wire like Brent described. Also I'm still curious as to the > > advantages or disavantages of a loose footed main. The info about > > Swains out sailing the world is very interesting and appreciated. > > > Martin (Prairie Maid) > > > > > > > > | 20194|20094|2009-04-18 17:17:42|brentswain38|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|Mild steel is far less prone to work hardening than stainless and when it does , it shows , unlike stainless. Corrosion is a bigger problem with mild steel, with stainless it's work hardening, and crevice corrosion. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mr_lugnuts_2007" wrote: > > Hard to tell from the pix but I'm assuming the U part broke off where the nuts are? Maybe due to cyclical flexing and work harding? If that's the case, mild steel will work harden and snap off in the same way. It's not clear to me if that was a design failure or an inappropriate choice of steel. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 04:19:51PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > No that isn't what I'm concerned about, that is the cost of stainless. > > > What we don't know is how this specific alloy will behave in marine > > > structural environments. That is will it work hardened, crack, > > > corrode or in other ways cause more problems than it solves. One > > > thing with many stainless alloys is that they will work harden which may > > > lead to problems for certain usages. Stainless also suffers from > > > crevice corrosion. > > > > Just as a personal anecdote, crevice corrosion just cost me about $500 > > and a hell of a lot of labor. > > > > About three weeks ago, my dinghy broke loose during a shakedown cruise, > > washed up on a beach in a state-run park, flipped over in the heavy > > seas, and drowned the 15HP Yamaha motor. I had to bring the boat into a > > marina, borrow a car from a friend, get the park rangers to drive me out > > there, get the dinghy (~350 lbs. with motor) loaded up on a truck > > without help, and drag it over to the park's maintenance shed. Then, I > > had to borrow a truck and a trailer, come back and retrieve it on > > another day, reassemble and clean everything, rewire the destroyed > > electrical system (wiring to the bow light and bilge pump), replace the > > lost bits, completely disassemble, clean, and reassemble every part of > > the motor, and replace the broken off tiller/throttle to boot. > > > > The dinghy had been secured to the boat by a very heavy piece of polypro > > line; the thing that broke was the bow eye, a beefy U-bolt at the front. > > I photographed the remains (the two threaded pieces with the nuts still > > in place) as a reminder to myself, and to anyone who thinks that > > stainless is the perfect answer to corrosion. > > > > http://okopnik.com/images/bow_eye.jpg > > > > > It is not like I'm saying this material is a bad thing, as I'm far from > > > an expert when it comes to marine structures. All I'm saying is I > > > wouldn't use the material unless I had an understanding about how it > > > would perform on a ship. > > > > Well, 300-series stainless steels are pretty good for the marine > > environment - but I don't know that it's the right thing for a hull. > > Mind you, a number of SS hulls have been built - e.g., > > http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/h/h-Pages/Image52.html - > > but I have no idea what alloy they went with. If I was going to do that, > > I'd sure as hell find out about the previous attempts, what worked, and > > what didn't. Searching Google for 'stainless steel hull', at the very > > least, would be instructive. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 20195|20094|2009-04-18 17:49:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 06:27:26PM -0000, mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: > Hard to tell from the pix but I'm assuming the U part broke off where > the nuts are? Maybe due to cyclical flexing and work harding? Sorry, no. I've seen breaks due to work hardening before; this wasn't one. Did you see the corrosion in the picture? The stuff inside the break looked like shattered clay, not a clean break (as with work hardening) or a "stretched" appearance like with cyclical flex breaks. > If > that's the case, mild steel will work harden and snap off in the same > way. It's not clear to me if that was a design failure or an > inappropriate choice of steel. If it can be blamed on anything at all, it would be design failure. Brent is right: for a secure bow eye, you need multiple attachment points with a good backing plate - but that's not something you'll find on any production dinghy. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20196|20094|2009-04-18 20:08:43|brentswain38|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|Like oarlocks , the only way to get a decent one is to build it yourself. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 06:27:26PM -0000, mr_lugnuts_2007 wrote: > > Hard to tell from the pix but I'm assuming the U part broke off where > > the nuts are? Maybe due to cyclical flexing and work harding? > > Sorry, no. I've seen breaks due to work hardening before; this wasn't > one. Did you see the corrosion in the picture? The stuff inside the > break looked like shattered clay, not a clean break (as with work > hardening) or a "stretched" appearance like with cyclical flex breaks. > > > If > > that's the case, mild steel will work harden and snap off in the same > > way. It's not clear to me if that was a design failure or an > > inappropriate choice of steel. > > If it can be blamed on anything at all, it would be design failure. > Brent is right: for a secure bow eye, you need multiple attachment > points with a good backing plate - but that's not something you'll find > on any production dinghy. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20197|20094|2009-04-18 20:37:33|James Pronk|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|Hey Brent How would you build oarlocks? James --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Like oarlocks , the only way to get a decent one is to build it yourself. > Brent | 20198|20185|2009-04-18 21:10:14|kingsknight4life|Re: Wire and Boom|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Thanks all for the info on the boom material and the wire. Roland have you had a chance to look in any of the yards around the Edm. area for wire like Brent described. .... > Martin (Prairie Maid) No I havent had a chance. I'm not sure if we even have scrap yards here in Edm. like they do on the island. Most places here won't even sell to the public or if they do you have to tell them what you want and they go find it. No self browsing. Martin if you find any leads on boom matrial let me know, please. Maybe even we can split a mast literlly. I seem to find deals on 28-30 ft masts a lot.I might havea source for cheap wire but it will be a bit before I know for sure. Kind of a longshot though. I think its only 60 cents/ft retail. Rowland| 20199|20185|2009-04-18 22:46:58|Aaron Williams|Re: Wire and Boom|I am may be willing to part with the boom section I bought from Carl last fall. Aaron --- On Sat, 4/18/09, kingsknight4life wrote: From: kingsknight4life Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wire and Boom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 5:10 PM --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Thanks all for the info on the boom material and the wire. Roland have you had a chance to look in any of the yards around the Edm. area for wire like Brent described. .... > Martin (Prairie Maid) No I havent had a chance. I'm not sure if we even have scrap yards here in Edm. like they do on the island. Most places here won't even sell to the public or if they do you have to tell them what you want and they go find it. No self browsing. Martin if you find any leads on boom matrial let me know, please. Maybe even we can split a mast literlly. I seem to find deals on 28-30 ft masts a lot.I might havea source for cheap wire but it will be a bit before I know for sure. Kind of a longshot though. I think its only 60 cents/ft retail. Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20200|20094|2009-04-18 22:53:12|Aaron Williams|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|There was a fellow over in Europe that was tring to develope a stainless steel sailboat. The first one had serious cracking problems at the rib locations. Maybe he should have tried Origami? Aaron --- On Sat, 4/18/09, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:16 PM Mild steel is far less prone to work hardening than stainless and when it does , it shows , unlike stainless. Corrosion is a bigger problem with mild steel, with stainless it's work hardening, and crevice corrosion. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mr_lugnuts_ 2007" wrote: > > Hard to tell from the pix but I'm assuming the U part broke off where the nuts are? Maybe due to cyclical flexing and work harding? If that's the case, mild steel will work harden and snap off in the same way. It's not clear to me if that was a design failure or an inappropriate choice of steel. > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 04:19:51PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > No that isn't what I'm concerned about, that is the cost of stainless. > > > What we don't know is how this specific alloy will behave in marine > > > structural environments. That is will it work hardened, crack, > > > corrode or in other ways cause more problems than it solves. One > > > thing with many stainless alloys is that they will work harden which may > > > lead to problems for certain usages. Stainless also suffers from > > > crevice corrosion. > > > > Just as a personal anecdote, crevice corrosion just cost me about $500 > > and a hell of a lot of labor. > > > > About three weeks ago, my dinghy broke loose during a shakedown cruise, > > washed up on a beach in a state-run park, flipped over in the heavy > > seas, and drowned the 15HP Yamaha motor. I had to bring the boat into a > > marina, borrow a car from a friend, get the park rangers to drive me out > > there, get the dinghy (~350 lbs. with motor) loaded up on a truck > > without help, and drag it over to the park's maintenance shed. Then, I > > had to borrow a truck and a trailer, come back and retrieve it on > > another day, reassemble and clean everything, rewire the destroyed > > electrical system (wiring to the bow light and bilge pump), replace the > > lost bits, completely disassemble, clean, and reassemble every part of > > the motor, and replace the broken off tiller/throttle to boot. > > > > The dinghy had been secured to the boat by a very heavy piece of polypro > > line; the thing that broke was the bow eye, a beefy U-bolt at the front. > > I photographed the remains (the two threaded pieces with the nuts still > > in place) as a reminder to myself, and to anyone who thinks that > > stainless is the perfect answer to corrosion. > > > > http://okopnik. com/images/ bow_eye.jpg > > > > > It is not like I'm saying this material is a bad thing, as I'm far from > > > an expert when it comes to marine structures. All I'm saying is I > > > wouldn't use the material unless I had an understanding about how it > > > would perform on a ship. > > > > Well, 300-series stainless steels are pretty good for the marine > > environment - but I don't know that it's the right thing for a hull. > > Mind you, a number of SS hulls have been built - e.g., > > http://www.msm. cam.ac.uk/ phase-trans/ 2004/h/h- Pages/Image52. html - > > but I have no idea what alloy they went with. If I was going to do that, > > I'd sure as hell find out about the previous attempts, what worked, and > > what didn't. Searching Google for 'stainless steel hull', at the very > > least, would be instructive. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20201|20094|2009-04-19 03:27:55|David Frantz|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|Interesting! It would be nice to know the specifics of the material and welding process. Personally if I wanted a corrosion resistant ship I'd consider Aluminum. At least up to the point where the $$$$ signs become obvious. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 18, 2009, at 10:52 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > There was a fellow over in Europe that was tring to develope a > stainless steel sailboat. The first one had serious cracking > problems at the rib locations. Maybe he should have tried Origami? > Aaron > > --- On Sat, 4/18/09, brentswain38 wrote: > > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:16 PM > > > > > > > > > Mild steel is far less prone to work hardening than stainless and > when it does , it shows , unlike stainless. Corrosion is a bigger > problem with mild steel, with stainless it's work hardening, and > crevice corrosion. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mr_lugnuts_ 2007" > wrote: >> >> Hard to tell from the pix but I'm assuming the U part broke off >> where the nuts are? Maybe due to cyclical flexing and work harding? >> If that's the case, mild steel will work harden and snap off in the >> same way. It's not clear to me if that was a design failure or an >> inappropriate choice of steel. >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 04:19:51PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: >>>> No that isn't what I'm concerned about, that is the cost of >>>> stainless. >>>> What we don't know is how this specific alloy will behave in marine >>>> structural environments. That is will it work hardened, crack, >>>> corrode or in other ways cause more problems than it solves. One >>>> thing with many stainless alloys is that they will work harden >>>> which may >>>> lead to problems for certain usages. Stainless also suffers from >>>> crevice corrosion. >>> >>> Just as a personal anecdote, crevice corrosion just cost me about >>> $500 >>> and a hell of a lot of labor. >>> >>> About three weeks ago, my dinghy broke loose during a shakedown >>> cruise, >>> washed up on a beach in a state-run park, flipped over in the heavy >>> seas, and drowned the 15HP Yamaha motor. I had to bring the boat >>> into a >>> marina, borrow a car from a friend, get the park rangers to drive >>> me out >>> there, get the dinghy (~350 lbs. with motor) loaded up on a truck >>> without help, and drag it over to the park's maintenance shed. >>> Then, I >>> had to borrow a truck and a trailer, come back and retrieve it on >>> another day, reassemble and clean everything, rewire the destroyed >>> electrical system (wiring to the bow light and bilge pump), >>> replace the >>> lost bits, completely disassemble, clean, and reassemble every >>> part of >>> the motor, and replace the broken off tiller/throttle to boot. >>> >>> The dinghy had been secured to the boat by a very heavy piece of >>> polypro >>> line; the thing that broke was the bow eye, a beefy U-bolt at the >>> front. >>> I photographed the remains (the two threaded pieces with the nuts >>> still >>> in place) as a reminder to myself, and to anyone who thinks that >>> stainless is the perfect answer to corrosion. >>> >>> http://okopnik. com/images/ bow_eye.jpg >>> >>>> It is not like I'm saying this material is a bad thing, as I'm >>>> far from >>>> an expert when it comes to marine structures. All I'm saying is I >>>> wouldn't use the material unless I had an understanding about how >>>> it >>>> would perform on a ship. >>> >>> Well, 300-series stainless steels are pretty good for the marine >>> environment - but I don't know that it's the right thing for a hull. >>> Mind you, a number of SS hulls have been built - e.g., >>> http://www.msm. cam.ac.uk/ phase-trans/ 2004/h/h- Pages/Image52. >>> html - >>> but I have no idea what alloy they went with. If I was going to do >>> that, >>> I'd sure as hell find out about the previous attempts, what >>> worked, and >>> what didn't. Searching Google for 'stainless steel hull', at the >>> very >>> least, would be instructive. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http:// >>> LinuxGazette .NET * >>> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20202|20094|2009-04-19 16:22:30|Paul Wilson|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|>>>>There was a fellow over in Europe that was tring to develope a stainless steel sailboat. The first one had serious cracking problems at the rib locations. Maybe he should have tried Origami? Aaron I have no solid facts to back this but believe that some think because SS doesn't rust they can go to thinner plate. I met a guy who had a SS 45 footer in New Caledonia that his father had built and sailed for many years. It was such thin plate that it looked like a starved horse from the pictures he showed me. He went into the harbor when a cyclone was coming and there was no more room in the marina. He anchored as best he could but dragged and hit the reef. In his words it "rolled up into a ball like an aluminum can". It was crushed so badly it totally destroyed the interior although I don't believe it ever really holed the hull. He was working in Wallis Island to save money for a new boat. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20203|20185|2009-04-20 13:58:14|theboilerflue|Re: Wire and Boom|Roland, there was another 20 foot section of alu. pipe at ABC in campbell river last time i was up there it's been there for a while now (like a year or so). Thats where i got mine (4 3/4 ID) although this ones a little bit heavier, mine has a 1/8" wall the other one there looked maybe like 3/36 or so maybe it's a sch 40 pipe got mine for a dollar a pound cost me like forty bucks or something. Also got a quote from north island ropes, well acutally two quotes I'm not sure what to make of this: In courtenay they quoted me at (i don't have the quotes with me) something like 56 cents a foot for 5/16 high tensile galv 1x7 and someting like 8-9 bucks per eye. then the very next day i was up in campbell river and got a quote from north island ropes there: must have been a radical drop in steel prices or something cause it was something like 36 cents a foot and 8-9 per eye, I made sure it was the same stuff and yes they could deliver it down to the courtenay store at no cost. Anyway i got the second quote in writing, wish i had gotten the first one too. The real kicker is that the courtenay outlet doesn't do any slicing in fact the don't even have cable on stock they have it all done in campbell river!| 20205|20094|2009-04-20 15:36:53|brentswain38|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|Stainless tanks that are of to light a plate tend to get cracks on the corners from water sloshing around in them, flexing the ends. Second hand boaters supplys are full of them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > >>>>There was a fellow over in Europe that was tring to develope a stainless > steel sailboat. The first one had serious cracking problems at the rib > locations. Maybe he should have tried Origami? > Aaron > > > > I have no solid facts to back this but believe that some think because SS > doesn't rust they can go to thinner plate. I met a guy who had a SS 45 > footer in New Caledonia that his father had built and sailed for many years. > It was such thin plate that it looked like a starved horse from the pictures > he showed me. He went into the harbor when a cyclone was coming and there > was no more room in the marina. He anchored as best he could but dragged > and hit the reef. In his words it "rolled up into a ball like an aluminum > can". It was crushed so badly it totally destroyed the interior although I > don't believe it ever really holed the hull. He was working in Wallis > Island to save money for a new boat. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20206|20094|2009-04-20 15:43:09|brentswain38|Re: Welding 14 GA Stainless Sheet|I bend 1/4 or 3/16th by 1 inch ss flatbar into a U shape,and weld a piece of 1/2 inch ss shaft to the bottom of the loop. I make the bottom part out of a piece of ss sh 40 pipe , welded to another piece of ss flastbar with two bolt holes in it . These I bolt to the gunnel. I put a plastic hose barb in between the shaft and the pipe for silence and smooth bearing surface. I put a piece of 3/16th bolt thru the oar and thru a couple of holes drilled near the top of the U. This keeps the oar at aset angle and the oarlock at a set point on the oar, making rowing much easier on rough water. You don't have to think, just pull. Zero chance of them ever breaking. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Hey Brent > How would you build oarlocks? > James > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Like oarlocks , the only way to get a decent one is to build it yourself. > > Brent > | 20207|20185|2009-04-20 15:48:18|brentswain38|Re: Wire and Boom|Ken Smith of Smokey lake , NE of Edmonton said he found some super deals on ss scrap there. He built a 36 at Smoky Lake. We found enough hign tensile 1X7 in a scrapyard , fresh off the spool, to rig a 36, for $24, once . Check the scrapyards. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > > > Thanks all for the info on the boom material and the wire. Roland have you had a chance to look in any of the yards around the Edm. area for wire like Brent described. .... > > Martin (Prairie Maid) > > No I havent had a chance. I'm not sure if we even have scrap yards here in Edm. like they do on the island. Most places here won't even sell to the public or if they do you have to tell them what you want and they go find it. No self browsing. > > Martin if you find any leads on boom matrial let me know, please. Maybe even we can split a mast literlly. I seem to find deals on 28-30 ft masts a lot.I might havea source for cheap wire but it will be a bit before I know for sure. Kind of a longshot though. I think its only 60 cents/ft retail. > Rowland > | 20208|20185|2009-04-20 16:10:46|kingsknight4life|Re: Wire and Boom|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Ken Smith of Smokey lake , NE of Edmonton said he found some super deals on ss scrap there. He built a 36 at Smoky Lake. > We found enough hign tensile 1X7 in a scrapyard , fresh off the spool, to rig a 36, for $24, once . Check the scrapyards. > Brent Brent, "there" being Smokey Lake? Rowland| 20210|20185|2009-04-20 18:06:45|brentswain38|Re: Wire and Boom|He was in Smokey lake , but I don't know where his SS source was. Somewhere near Edmonton.When are you comming to the coast to finish your boat? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Ken Smith of Smokey lake , NE of Edmonton said he found some super deals on ss scrap there. He built a 36 at Smoky Lake. > > We found enough hign tensile 1X7 in a scrapyard , fresh off the spool, to rig a 36, for $24, once . Check the scrapyards. > > Brent > Brent, > "there" being Smokey Lake? > Rowland > | 20211|20211|2009-04-20 20:45:54|prairiemaidca|Stainless near Edmonton|The fellow lives on an acreage n.e. of morinville. I got a lot of S.S. from him for Prairie Maid. I picked up material that I figured would have cost over six thousand dollars new for just over three hundred. He collects it from various sources like gas plants etc. then he cuts it into short lengths and ships it on his own trucks to Ontario. I haven't talked to him in quite awhile but I can probably track down his name and number if you need it. Martin.| 20212|20185|2009-04-20 23:04:29|Carl Anderson|Re: Wire and Boom|You have some different names up there in the north! Here is the USA the 1X7 comes in 3 grades none of which are called high tensile. I used EHS (extra high strength) for my rigging. The other two grades are regular and HS(high strength). At the "store" where I bot mine they had all three grades and each was colour coded. Green was regular, yellow was HS and blue was EHS. Good luck with the "high tensile" up there in Canadia. Carl sv-mom.com theboilerflue wrote: > > > > Roland, there was another 20 foot section of alu. pipe at ABC in > campbell river last > time i was up there it's been there for a while now (like a year or > so). Thats where i > got mine (4 3/4 ID) although this ones a little bit heavier, mine has > a 1/8" wall the > other one there looked maybe like 3/36 or so maybe it's a sch 40 pipe > got mine for a > dollar a pound cost me like forty bucks or something. > Also got a quote from north island ropes, well acutally two quotes I'm > not sure what to > make of this: > In courtenay they quoted me at (i don't have the quotes with me) > something like 56 > cents a foot for 5/16 high tensile galv 1x7 and someting like 8-9 > bucks per eye. > then the very next day i was up in campbell river and got a quote from > north island > ropes there: must have been a radical drop in steel prices or > something cause it was > something like 36 cents a foot and 8-9 per eye, I made sure it was the > same stuff and > yes they could deliver it down to the courtenay store at no cost. > Anyway i got the > second quote in writing, wish i had gotten the first one too. The real > kicker is that > the courtenay outlet doesn't do any slicing in fact the don't even > have cable on stock > they have it all done in campbell river! > > | 20213|20185|2009-04-21 03:20:45|kingsknight4life|Re: Wire and Boom|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > He was in Smokey lake , but I don't know where his SS source was. Somewhere near Edmonton.When are you comming to the coast to finish your boat? > Brent When I get some more money. I ned to save up enough to get it blasted,painted and hopefully foamed. Rowland| 20214|20211|2009-04-21 03:22:18|kingsknight4life|Re: Stainless near Edmonton|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > The fellow lives on an acreage n.e. of morinville. I got a lot of S.S. from him for Prairie Maid. I picked up material that I figured would have cost over six thousand dollars new for just over three hundred. He collects it from various sources like gas plants etc. then he cuts it into short lengths and ships it on his own trucks to Ontario. I haven't talked to him in quite awhile but I can probably track down his name and number if you need it. > Martin. > That'd be great Rowland| 20215|20185|2009-04-21 03:45:44|kingsknight4life|Re: Wire and Boom|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > You have some different names up there in the north! > Here is the USA the 1X7 comes in 3 grades none of which are called high > tensile. > I used EHS (extra high strength) for my rigging. > The other two grades are regular and HS(high strength). > Good luck with the "high tensile" up there in Canadia. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > Carl Up here it is called Grade 110/160/180 and 220 at the place I was looking at. Its also called high strenght and extra high strength too, just depends where you go and who you talk to. I dont think its one of our weird Canadian sayings. :) Rowland| 20221|20185|2009-04-22 14:54:24|theboilerflue|Re: Wire and Boom|the stuff i was lookling at (high tensile) was rated for 11400 lbs minimum breaking strength, was the "extra high strength" the same is is that even stronger? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > You have some different names up there in the north! > > Here is the USA the 1X7 comes in 3 grades none of which are called high > > tensile. > > I used EHS (extra high strength) for my rigging. > > The other two grades are regular and HS(high strength). > > Good luck with the "high tensile" up there in Canadia. > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > Carl > Up here it is called Grade 110/160/180 and 220 at the place I was looking at. Its also called high strenght and extra high strength too, just depends where you go and who you talk to. I dont think its one of our weird Canadian sayings. :) > Rowland > | 20222|20185|2009-04-22 14:58:10|brentswain38|Re: Wire and Boom|11,400 sounds like the 180. brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > the stuff i was lookling at (high tensile) was rated for 11400 lbs minimum breaking strength, was the "extra high strength" the same is is that even stronger? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > You have some different names up there in the north! > > > Here is the USA the 1X7 comes in 3 grades none of which are called high > > > tensile. > > > I used EHS (extra high strength) for my rigging. > > > The other two grades are regular and HS(high strength). > > > Good luck with the "high tensile" up there in Canadia. > > > > > > Carl > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > Carl > > Up here it is called Grade 110/160/180 and 220 at the place I was looking at. Its also called high strenght and extra high strength too, just depends where you go and who you talk to. I dont think its one of our weird Canadian sayings. :) > > Rowland > > > | 20223|20223|2009-04-22 15:00:08|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: =?windows-1256?Q?I've_made_=A31260_in_one_week_using_this_...|Hope your paying tax on that [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20224|20185|2009-04-22 16:22:24|kingsknight4life|Re: Wire and Boom|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 11,400 sounds like the 180. > brent > Here is the specs I got from the website 5/16 Gr. 160/180/220 9900/11,100/13,600 3/8 Gr. 160/180/220 12,000/13,500/16,500 These are min. breaking loads. Rowland| 20225|20225|2009-04-22 22:22:03|Gary Prebble|Coupla quick questions...|I want to paint the deck. For prep would a scrub with vinegar and water cut the grime etc...? I do not want to use anything that is not OK for the ocean 2ndly...as a back up to my 2 deep cell batteries... would just a spare battery or 2 be the basics...not looking for anything fancy. If so how best to hook up for a boost? Lastly... My rode has the first 50' as anchor chain rusted now...looks like crap. Anything outside of replacement or re-galvanized one can do such as wire brush or paint that would remove the rust? thanks... Gary| 20226|20226|2009-04-23 08:25:37|audeojude|aerogel insulation|Didn't someone on here post that they had some areogel insulation for sale a while back.. I can't find reference to it by searching.I was almost certain that it was on this group though.| 20227|20227|2009-04-23 09:54:10|SHANE ROTHWELL|Coupla quick questions|Gary, put the chain in a bucket & dump "CLR" over it & let it soak for a bit. unbelievable how good it works at rust removal. refinishing...good question. for the batteries get a break before make rotary switch & set it up for "house" or "start" batteries. I have a drawing if your interested out of "living on 12v with ample power" wired it that way on my big boat & it worked really well. cheers, Shane Posted by: "Gary Prebble" aguysailing@... aguysailing Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:22 pm (PDT) I want to paint the deck. For prep would a scrub with vinegar and water cut the grime etc...? I do not want to use anything that is not OK for the ocean 2ndly...as a back up to my 2 deep cell batteries... would just a spare battery or 2 be the basics...not looking for anything fancy. If so how best to hook up for a boost? Lastly... My rode has the first 50' as anchor chain rusted now...looks like crap. Anything outside of replacement or re-galvanized one can do such as wire brush or paint that would remove the rust? thanks... Gary __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 20228|20227|2009-04-23 17:05:31|Gary Prebble|Re: Coupla quick questions|Hi Shane.. thanks for the clr tip...gonna give it a go. Regards battery... I do have the 1, 2 or both switch already. However, I do forget sometimes to set the switch to use just one battery so I was wondering about just a booster kind of set up with a spare battery. I want to keep it all just the basics. Regards Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > Gary, > > put the chain in a bucket & dump "CLR" over it & let it soak for a bit. unbelievable how good it works at rust removal. refinishing...good question. > > for the batteries get a break before make rotary switch & set it up for "house" or "start" batteries. I have a drawing if your interested out of "living on 12v with ample power" wired it that way on my big boat & it worked really well. > > cheers, > Shane > > > Posted by: "Gary Prebble" aguysailing@... aguysailing > Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:22 pm (PDT) > > > I want to paint the deck. For prep would a scrub with vinegar and water cut the grime etc...? I do not want to use anything that is not OK for the ocean > > 2ndly...as a back up to my 2 deep cell batteries... would just a spare battery or 2 be the basics...not looking for anything fancy. If so how best to hook up for a boost? > > Lastly... My rode has the first 50' as anchor chain rusted now...looks like crap. Anything outside of replacement or re-galvanized one can do such as wire brush or paint that would remove the rust? > > thanks... > Gary > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > | 20229|20225|2009-04-23 17:15:50|brentswain38|Re: Coupla quick questions...|Is your deck paint epoxy or oil based. Epoxy UV calking is hard to get paint to stick to. Any spare batteries have to be kept topped up , or they will lose their ability to hold a charge. Dragging a chain behind your car down a rural gravel road will get it shiny , for a short while . Good way to clean it before regalvanising, but don't let anyone run over the end while you are towing it. That could get exciting. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > I want to paint the deck. For prep would a scrub with vinegar and water cut the grime etc...? I do not want to use anything that is not OK for the ocean > > 2ndly...as a back up to my 2 deep cell batteries... would just a spare battery or 2 be the basics...not looking for anything fancy. If so how best to hook up for a boost? > > Lastly... My rode has the first 50' as anchor chain rusted now...looks like crap. Anything outside of replacement or re-galvanized one can do such as wire brush or paint that would remove the rust? > > thanks... > Gary > | 20230|20225|2009-04-23 18:32:37|Paul Wilson|Gulf of Mexica sailing|A wild stab but someone may have some local knowledge. I have an opportunity (?) of helping deliver a boat from Corpus Christi, Texas to Fiji and was wondering if anyone has some first or second hand knowledge of sailing in the Gulf of Mexico. From looking at the charts, it looks like a bit of a nightmare getting from Corpus Christi to Panama. There are lots of things to hit on the way and it looks like it is against the prevailing winds and current. How bad/good would it be? The trip would be leaving in about a month and it's in a (gulp!) 35 foot catamaran. Thanks, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20231|20226|2009-04-23 19:20:12|kingsknight4life|Re: aerogel insulation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > Didn't someone on here post that they had some areogel insulation for sale a while back.. I can't find reference to it by searching.I was almost certain that it was on this group though. > Yes it was Carl from M.O.M. I think he sod it though Rowland| 20232|20169|2009-04-23 21:13:19|jim dorey|Re: Get Breaking News Toolbar for Your Web Browser Toolbar - Free Do|Grant Henry wrote: > > > > Is there any way to get this crap off the list? I'm a luddite at heart > and may be misinformed, but if I block this particular sender my fear is > blocking all postings from the list. > > Grant i use the smart filters built into thunderbird, i look in the junk folder every few days to see if anything good got put in there, combined with the topic filtering, the spam's not too bad.| 20233|20233|2009-04-24 09:32:32|SHANE ROTHWELL|Coupla Quickies|Well, it would at least take the boredome out of an afternoon... Gary, sorry, forgot to mention that the wiring diagram for the break before make switcheS that I mentioned uses 2 make before break switches. this way you can use either set/bank of batteries, or both, or have em all disconnected. the trick to not gettign stuck with no battery grunt to start the donk is to remember & not go to sleep with both banks on..........this setup uses both switches to achieve the end result and I needed to post the list of where to have each switch, but it worked well. Brent, really liked the drag the chain down a gravel road trick. Shane Posted by: "Gary Prebble" aguysailing@... aguysailing Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:05 pm (PDT) Hi Shane.. thanks for the clr tip...gonna give it a go. Regards battery... I do have the 1, 2 or both switch already. However, I do forget sometimes to set the switch to use just one battery so I was wondering about just a booster kind of set up with a spare battery. I want to keep it all just the basics. Regards Gary __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 20234|20234|2009-04-24 10:04:31|SHANE ROTHWELL|Gulf of Mexica|Paul, I crewed on a Paterson 37' tri from Nawilliwill Harbour, Kawaii to Long Beach California in '78. 17 days as the north pacific high was quite far north at the time. Coupla thoughts - a monohull is designed to stay upright. big chunk of lead on the underside so if it capsizes/pitchpoles or whatever, it comes up. the combination of gravity and the basic design do that, just add time. Ok, how about a multi hull.....sure, they go like shit through a goose, but they are equally stable upside down as they are right side up. Ever hear of a mono hull breaking up when it wasnt being smashed against a reef or something? Ever hear of a milti breaking up? - how about weather? in a mono, wind pipes up you reef, more puff, reef some more, gets wild, you end up with bare poles, probably dragging something with your butt wedged into your bunk hopefully with a thermos of hot soup & something to eat & something to read. a multi? the wind gets up and you get busy as it's got to be hand steered, if really blowing you probably need a droge. watch that lift in the swells cuz if it gets under the wings it's sooooo easy to pas I might be wrong, but weather will just keep going whereas a man tends to tire in just a single day..... A milti is a gas inshore and they go like hell, lots of room, stable paltform, lots of fun. but offshore they are just like cocane... you can fucking fly, but the landing is potentially really hard. an accident looking for a place to happen. A wild stab but someone may have some local knowledge. I have an opportunity (?) of helping deliver a boat from Corpus Christi, Texas to Fiji and was wondering if anyone has some first or second hand knowledge of sailing in the Gulf of Mexico. From looking at the charts, it looks like a bit of a nightmare getting from Corpus Christi to Panama. There are lots of things to hit on the way and it looks like it is against the prevailing winds and current. How bad/good would it be? The trip would be leaving in about a month and it's in a (gulp!) 35 foot catamaran. Thanks, Paul __________________________________________________________________ Reclaim your name @... or @.... Get your new email address now! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/| 20235|20185|2009-04-24 13:26:51|mhs@well.com|Re: Wire and Boom|Hi Jackie, Sorry to be slow to reply. I don't have suggested dates right now. Feel free to suggest some in the mean time. Before we talk about pre-requisites let's clarify about what the class would be first. There are generally two concepts of classes in the surf. One is surf zone, which is I think what you are looking for. This is a class done in sea kayaks. The goal is to learn about surf zone dynamics and work towards skills which make it possible to launch and land sea kayaks through the surf zone safelyn without actually surfing. The purpose of this class is NOT to surf per se. This class is also great for any paddler, even those not planning to paddle on the coast (and thus not really needing to launch and land through surf), because the surf zone is one of the best places to learn to handle yourself, your paddle and your kayak. The very movement of the waves creates the opportunity to fast track learning universal skills like edging and bracing. This is hard to explain until you have tried it, but is amazingly effective. I would recommend this for almost all sea kayakers, unless they have a physical limitation which makes it inappropriate. Some people find the surf a scary place. This class is conducted in small stuff on a shallowly sloped beach. Most of the time is spent in the "soup zone", which is where the foam piles move toward shore after the waves have broken. The other class taught in the surf is a class in actually surfing kayaks. Most often introductions to surfing are done in surf boats or river boats, migrating to sea kayaks later if there is interest. I am not going to talk about this option further unless it turns out that is what you are interested in. Most places require paddlers to have gone through sea kayak classes 1 - 3 (they vary by name)or equivalent skill as pre-requisites for a surf zone class. I generally think this is a good idea, but we can talk it over. Certainly, everyone should be reasonably comfortable with being in a boat and have some experience with roughish water. Everyone will likely capsize their boats multiple times as part of the practice. We will not generally do rescues in the surf zone, but rather get back in them on shore. It can be tiring, so it is good to have multiple students. That way each person can watch and learn from others experience while they are resting. Dressing for the water and helmets are mandatory. Hope that's a good start. Matthew 415-710-2434 Original Message: ----------------- From: theboilerflue haidan@... Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:53:39 -0000 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wire and Boom the stuff i was lookling at (high tensile) was rated for 11400 lbs minimum breaking strength, was the "extra high strength" the same is is that even stronger? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > You have some different names up there in the north! > > Here is the USA the 1X7 comes in 3 grades none of which are called high > > tensile. > > I used EHS (extra high strength) for my rigging. > > The other two grades are regular and HS(high strength). > > Good luck with the "high tensile" up there in Canadia. > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > Carl > Up here it is called Grade 110/160/180 and 220 at the place I was looking at. Its also called high strenght and extra high strength too, just depends where you go and who you talk to. I dont think its one of our weird Canadian sayings. :) > Rowland > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com – What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint| 20236|20226|2009-04-24 15:16:03|mickeyolaf|Re: aerogel insulation|I watched two guys spray foam a 22' aluminum power boat yesterday in Courtenay. Two men did the hull and cabin in 2 hours to an inch and half thick. They were there at 3 and gone before 5. Spray foam is fast, sticks, fills every nook and cranny and is easy except for the later carving and sanding which takes a day. I was going to glue sheets in myself but it is false economy. Then I thought I would spray it myself but you can't beat professional spray foam for speed and economy. There are some jobs best left to others unless u have the equipment and skill to do it well yourself. I'm on day 4 now cleaning the deck aluminum and smoothing for primer. Someone has stolen my back and endurance and I could hardly get up this morning. Thank God for knee pads, advil and electric feather edgers. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > > > Didn't someone on here post that they had some areogel insulation for sale a while back.. I can't find reference to it by searching.I was almost certain that it was on this group though. > > > Yes it was Carl from M.O.M. I think he sod it though > Rowland > | 20237|20227|2009-04-24 15:33:21|silascrosby|Re: Coupla quick questions|gary, I changed from a battery switch to a single big house bank and a separate starting battery charged by a 'series regulator'(Xantrex, among others) after the house batteries are charged by alternator, solar etc. Well descibed in Nigel Calder's big book and dicussed a lot on SSCA forum, and ?perhaps on this one. It is working well for me after two years. I still have a big on/off switch to isolate batteries in emergency , as well as fuses). Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Hi Shane.. thanks for the clr tip...gonna give it a go. > > Regards battery... I do have the 1, 2 or both switch already. However, I do forget sometimes to set the switch to use just one battery so I was wondering about just a booster kind of set up with a spare battery. I want to keep it all just the basics. > > Regards > Gary > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > > > Gary, > > > > put the chain in a bucket & dump "CLR" over it & let it soak for a bit. unbelievable how good it works at rust removal. refinishing...good question. > > > > for the batteries get a break before make rotary switch & set it up for "house" or "start" batteries. I have a drawing if your interested out of "living on 12v with ample power" wired it that way on my big boat & it worked really well. > > > > cheers, > > Shane > > > > > > Posted by: "Gary Prebble" aguysailing@ aguysailing > > Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:22 pm (PDT) > > > > > > I want to paint the deck. For prep would a scrub with vinegar and water cut the grime etc...? I do not want to use anything that is not OK for the ocean > > > > 2ndly...as a back up to my 2 deep cell batteries... would just a spare battery or 2 be the basics...not looking for anything fancy. If so how best to hook up for a boost? > > > > Lastly... My rode has the first 50' as anchor chain rusted now...looks like crap. Anything outside of replacement or re-galvanized one can do such as wire brush or paint that would remove the rust? > > > > thanks... > > Gary > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > > > | 20238|20226|2009-04-24 16:35:02|kingsknight4life|Re: aerogel insulation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > ... > I was going to glue sheets in myself but it is false economy. Then I thought I would spray it myself but you can't beat professional spray foam for speed and economy. There are some jobs best left to others unless u have the equipment and skill to do it well yourself. .. > > Mickey I saw pics of Moonflower I think the aerogel was for the undeersides of the hatches not for insulating the boat. Rowland| 20239|20234|2009-04-24 16:50:02|Paul Wilson|Re: Gulf of Mexica|Thanks Shane, I take it you don't like multi-hulls. :). I don't disagree with what you have said but don't think we should really get into the multihull versus monohull debate on a steel boat forum. :). I am going with a conservative sailor like myself and we won't push it. I admit that I wish it was a 50 foot multi rather than a 35 footer since that would be much less likely to run into troubles. It should be a learning experience, to say the least. Cheers, Paul Paul, I crewed on a Paterson 37' tri from Nawilliwill Harbour, Kawaii to Long Beach California in '78. 17 days as the north pacific high was quite far north at the time. Coupla thoughts - a monohull is designed to stay upright. big chunk of lead on the underside so if it capsizes/pitchpoles or whatever, it comes up. the combination of gravity and the basic design do that, just add time. Ok, how about a multi hull.....sure, they go like shit through a goose, but they are equally stable upside down as they are right side up. Ever hear of a mono hull breaking up when it wasnt being smashed against a reef or something? Ever hear of a milti breaking up? - how about weather? in a mono, wind pipes up you reef, more puff, reef some more, gets wild, you end up with bare poles, probably dragging something with your butt wedged into your bunk hopefully with a thermos of hot soup & something to eat & something to read. a multi? the wind gets up and you get busy as it's got to be hand steered, if really blowing you probably need a droge. watch that lift in the swells cuz if it gets under the wings it's sooooo easy to pas I might be wrong, but weather will just keep going whereas a man tends to tire in just a single day..... A milti is a gas inshore and they go like hell, lots of room, stable paltform, lots of fun. but offshore they are just like cocane... you can fucking fly, but the landing is potentially really hard. an accident looking for a place to happen. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20240|20227|2009-04-24 18:32:35|Ben Okopnik|Re: Coupla quick questions|On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 05:41:49PM -0000, silascrosby wrote: > gary, I changed from a battery switch to a single big house bank and > a separate starting battery charged by a 'series regulator'(Xantrex, > among others) after the house batteries are charged by alternator, > solar etc. > Well descibed in Nigel Calder's big book and dicussed a lot on SSCA > forum, and ?perhaps on this one. It is working well for me after two > years. I still have a big on/off switch to isolate batteries in > emergency , as well as fuses). Or you could just automate the whole thing: get an old-style starter solenoid (~$15 at any auto parts store) and connect the coil to your engine key switch. Use the contactor to connect the start and the house batteries. This way, when you start your engine, you automatically get both batteries powering the starter, and both of them get charged while the engine is running - but as soon as you turn off the engine, the start battery is disconnected from the house bank. Simple and foolproof. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20241|20225|2009-04-24 21:29:58|Michael|Re: Gulf of Mexica sailing|This might sound a bit hard-edged, but here goes. You sound as though you have virtually no sailing experience, and a 35 foot catamaran is not (IMHO) a suitable vessel for an extended offshore voyage such as you are contemplating joining. 'Nuff said. Please spare me the flames, it needed to be said. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > A wild stab but someone may have some local knowledge. > > > > I have an opportunity (?) of helping deliver a boat from Corpus Christi, > Texas to Fiji and was wondering if anyone has some first or second hand > knowledge of sailing in the Gulf of Mexico. From looking at the charts, it > looks like a bit of a nightmare getting from Corpus Christi to Panama. > There are lots of things to hit on the way and it looks like it is against > the prevailing winds and current. How bad/good would it be? The trip > would be leaving in about a month and it's in a (gulp!) 35 foot catamaran. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20242|20226|2009-04-24 21:53:18|Carl Anderson|Re: aerogel insulation|Yes but it has been sold. Carl sv-mom.com audeojude wrote: > > > Didn't someone on here post that they had some areogel insulation for > sale a while back.. I can't find reference to it by searching.I was > almost certain that it was on this group though. > > | 20243|20225|2009-04-24 22:01:01|Paul Wilson|Re: Gulf of Mexica sailing|I may have sounded like that..not true however. I have sailed Tahiti to Canada and Malaysia to India as crew on other peoples boats and Canada to NZ on my own BS 36 with about 8 years of South Pacific sailing in the islands and NZ. A 35 foot catamaran is not my first choice but a friend is asking for my help and I am due for another adventure. I hope it's not too big of one! I was just looking for help regarding the local conditions in the Gulf of Mexico at that time of year since I have no experience there. Cheers, Paul This might sound a bit hard-edged, but here goes. You sound as though you have virtually no sailing experience, and a 35 foot catamaran is not (IMHO) a suitable vessel for an extended offshore voyage such as you are contemplating joining. 'Nuff said. Please spare me the flames, it needed to be said. Michael [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20244|20225|2009-04-24 22:02:58|Salvador|Re: Gulf of Mexica sailing|Very interesting Michael, I also have no sailing experience and was thinking about building a 47foot fiberglass catamaran for extendend cruising and would start too from the Gulf of Mexico. But I am in between the cat and a 44 foot steel sailboat, now that I see this type of comments start to lean towards the steel vessel as I intend to do offshore voyages with long-term stays on it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > This might sound a bit hard-edged, but here goes. > > You sound as though you have virtually no sailing experience, and a 35 foot catamaran is not (IMHO) a suitable vessel for an extended offshore voyage such as you are contemplating joining. > > 'Nuff said. Please spare me the flames, it needed to be said. > > Michael > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > A wild stab but someone may have some local knowledge. > > > > > > > > I have an opportunity (?) of helping deliver a boat from Corpus Christi, > > Texas to Fiji and was wondering if anyone has some first or second hand > > knowledge of sailing in the Gulf of Mexico. From looking at the charts, it > > looks like a bit of a nightmare getting from Corpus Christi to Panama. > > There are lots of things to hit on the way and it looks like it is against > > the prevailing winds and current. How bad/good would it be? The trip > > would be leaving in about a month and it's in a (gulp!) 35 foot catamaran. > > > > > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 20245|20226|2009-04-24 22:06:59|Carl Anderson|Re: aerogel insulation|I used the aerogel to insulate the refrigerator. Works absolutely great. Compressor runs 3 minutes out of every 15 with a inside temp of 38 degrees F. Carl sv-mom.com kingsknight4life wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > ... > > I was going to glue sheets in myself but it is false economy. Then I > thought I would spray it myself but you can't beat professional spray > foam for speed and economy. There are some jobs best left to others > unless u have the equipment and skill to do it well yourself. > .. > > > > > Mickey > I saw pics of Moonflower I think the aerogel was for the undeersides > of the hatches not for insulating the boat. > Rowland > > | 20246|20225|2009-04-24 23:01:25|lachica31|Re: Gulf of Mexica sailing|Michael, Comments of this sort and nature are unhelpful and not terribly useful. There are cats and cats, some are very capable boats and others should never leave the marina. As Paul Wilson has not mentioned the design, we do not know if it is of a suitable type. I can say that Paul is an experienced sailor and if you have read his past posts, you would be able to figure out that for yourself. While I most certainly do prefer mono hulls and traditional types at that, I have sailed cats offshore and I would do so again. Most notably I delivered a St. Francis 43 (designed by Angelo Lavranos) from Rio to Cape Town after the 1993 Cape to Rio yacht race. A voyage of over 3 500 miles through the Southern Ocean. The trip was not without problems but they were do to poor construction of the rig by the company that provided the rigging. The boat handled everything thrown at it in a capable manner. An outstanding moment from that trip was beating against a 45 knot head wind for the last day of the trip. We where doing 8 knots through the water, not many mono hulls of that size could give such a performance, even today. Paul, I have sailed La Chica thought the Caribbean sea entering the Gulf of Mexico through the Yucatan Channel. This was in November 1997. The voyage through the Caribbean sea was pleasant and down wind all the way. Typically 20 to 25 kts of wind, generally easing off around dawn and picking up again in the evening. The nasty gale that met us soon after existing the Yucatan Channel will not be forgotten for a long time. It was a classical Norther and it blew for a whole week. Since my destination was Fort Myers Beach it was right on the nose. After three days of it I had enough and went to Key West instead. Not sorry that I did as I had one of the best Christmases that I ever had. Since I have not sailed the other way, I cannot really advise you but I would say, wait for your weather window, then sail for Isla Mujeres/ Cancun in Mexico. Then, since you have a cat and presumably shallow draft, I would be inclined to hug the North American coast. The coast is protected by a barrier reef and that gives smooth water. Be aware that the coast is poorly charted (and even more poorly lighted) and the charts not always accurate. I believe that Nigel Calder has published a guide to the area that is quite good. Once you get to Panama you are back in the main stream and there is plenty of info on how to proceed. Don't listen to much to other peoples opinions (including mine) they are just opinions and mostly worth exactly what you paid for them. If I could get of work and away from my overhaul of La Chica, I would be asking if you want crew. Go for it, it should be good but some of it will be demanding sailing. As long as you are cautious (but not to much) and exercise prudence you should be fine. Regards, Paul Thompson --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > This might sound a bit hard-edged, but here goes. > > You sound as though you have virtually no sailing experience, and a 35 foot catamaran is not (IMHO) a suitable vessel for an extended offshore voyage such as you are contemplating joining. > > 'Nuff said. Please spare me the flames, it needed to be said. > > Michael > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > A wild stab but someone may have some local knowledge. > > > > > > > > I have an opportunity (?) of helping deliver a boat from Corpus Christi, > > Texas to Fiji and was wondering if anyone has some first or second hand > > knowledge of sailing in the Gulf of Mexico. From looking at the charts, it > > looks like a bit of a nightmare getting from Corpus Christi to Panama. > > There are lots of things to hit on the way and it looks like it is against > > the prevailing winds and current. How bad/good would it be? The trip > > would be leaving in about a month and it's in a (gulp!) 35 foot catamaran. | 20247|20226|2009-04-25 00:48:46|kingsknight4life|Re: aerogel insulation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I used the aerogel to insulate the refrigerator. > Works absolutely great. > Compressor runs 3 minutes out of every 15 with a inside temp of 38 > degrees F. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > >Guess I was 1/2 right or 1/2 wrong. lol I knew it wasn't for insulating the boat as I've seen your website and know you got it sprayfoamed. Rowland| 20248|20226|2009-04-25 05:09:14|lachica31|Re: aerogel insulation|Hi Carl, Can you tell me where you got your Aerogel insulation please. Thanks, Paul Thompson.| 20250|20250|2009-04-25 13:38:34|prairiemaidca|Spam Spam Spam|This is starting to look like a Monty Pithon skit. Where is this spam comming from and how do we stop it??? Personally I'm in favour of shooting anyone who does it. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 20251|20250|2009-04-25 13:54:47|kingsknight4life|Re: Spam Spam Spam|Alex Must be MIA. Seems most of it is coming from the same guy. Rowland| 20252|20250|2009-04-25 14:15:22|David Frantz|Re: Spam Spam Spam|That would be a much to fast of a death. Better to stake the body above an ant hill in the middle of a hot desert. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 25, 2009, at 1:38 PM, prairiemaidca wrote: > This is starting to look like a Monty Pithon skit. Where is this > spam comming from and how do we stop it??? Personally I'm in favour > of shooting anyone who does it. Martin (Prairie Maid) > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20253|20225|2009-04-25 22:28:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Gulf of Mexica sailing|Thanks, Paul. Most helpful. Cheers, the other Paul >>>Paul, I have sailed La Chica thought the Caribbean sea entering the Gulf of Mexico through the Yucatan Channel. This was in November 1997. The voyage through the Caribbean sea was pleasant and down wind all the way. Typically 20 to 25 kts of wind, generally easing off around dawn and picking up again in the evening. The nasty gale that met us soon after existing the Yucatan Channel will not be forgotten for a long time. It was a classical Norther and it blew for a whole week. Since my destination was Fort Myers Beach it was right on the nose. After three days of it I had enough and went to Key West instead. Not sorry that I did as I had one of the best Christmases that I ever had. Since I have not sailed the other way, I cannot really advise you but I would say, wait for your weather window, then sail for Isla Mujeres/ Cancun in Mexico. Then, since you have a cat and presumably shallow draft, I would be inclined to hug the North American coast. The coast is protected by a barrier reef and that gives smooth water. Be aware that the coast is poorly charted (and even more poorly lighted) and the charts not always accurate. I believe that Nigel Calder has published a guide to the area that is quite good. Once you get to Panama you are back in the main stream and there is plenty of info on how to proceed. Don't listen to much to other peoples opinions (including mine) they are just opinions and mostly worth exactly what you paid for them. If I could get of work and away from my overhaul of La Chica, I would be asking if you want crew. Go for it, it should be good but some of it will be demanding sailing. As long as you are cautious (but not to much) and exercise prudence you should be fine. Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20254|20226|2009-04-25 22:40:06|Carl Anderson|Re: aerogel insulation|It was made by Aspen Aerogel. I got it from Anchor Insulation in Rhode Island. I talked to Greg there. Carl lachica31 wrote: > > > Hi Carl, > > Can you tell me where you got your Aerogel insulation please. > > Thanks, > > Paul Thompson. > > | 20255|20227|2009-04-26 05:41:16|denis buggy|Re: Coupla quick questions|----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Coupla quick questions RE STEEL MULTIHULL AND CHARGING BATTERIES . there is a body of talk on steel multihulls already on file and there have been constant developments since , the latest is an article on this months Boat International on the 154 meter Prout steel trimaran with its british navy influence , some years ago when i wrote to some of the worlds naval architects who sold steel boat plans asking had they any knowledge of where i could buy steel multihull plans i received derisory replies which are already discussed on this site , i do not think i would receive the same replies today as steel trimaran design and research is cutting edge now and almost all navies and marine universities have current large funding devoted to this area as the design results are so dramatic. -- it is not that i knew anything but as people whose focus and vocation is new design they as a class failed in every area that mattered including good manners . RE BATTERIES CHARGING i once lost some skin and hair and clothes when i once investigated why a bus was overcharging and failing to start , a genius had replaced the 24volt radio with a 12volt cd player by running a wire to a single battery in a twin battery system , this meant that one battery was discharged while its partner was overcharged as the voltage would never climb to 28.6 volts which is the regulator charging switch off setting in a 24volt system . when i used the multimeter she blew and the peak of my hat saved my eyes . be careful when you charge batteries in series or parallel and put your hand on the sides to feel are some warm some cold when charged , wear glasses wear glasses , wear glasses and use a hydrometer if possible as it will find a dead cell quickly and safely . there are many battery management systems for sale some are excellent and are a great idea , they are used in rv and marine applications and remote start a generator and switch between batteries automatically and will auto shut down any draw of current below a set voltage which will not alone protect your starting current but prevent fires starting as low voltage supply will start a motor fire in ac or fan motors . in Volvo buses all fans now only work from the charging circuit only -- no working alternator = no fanmotors = no fires REGARDS DENIS BUGGY http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20256|20227|2009-04-26 08:19:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Coupla quick questions|On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 10:49:03AM +0100, denis buggy wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:27 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Coupla quick questions > > > RE STEEL MULTIHULL AND CHARGING BATTERIES . Just to make it clear: that message wasn't from me; I don't even know why it's got a header with my name on it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20257|20227|2009-04-26 11:20:03|Ben Okopnik|Re: Coupla quick questions|On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 10:49:03AM +0100, denis buggy wrote: > > there are many battery management systems for sale some are > excellent and are a great idea , they are used in rv and marine > applications and remote start a generator and switch between > batteries automatically and will auto shut down any draw of current > below a set voltage which will not alone protect your starting > current but prevent fires starting as low voltage supply will start > a motor fire in ac or fan motors . > > in Volvo buses all fans now only work from the charging circuit > only -- no working alternator = no fanmotors = no fires Hi, Denis - I can't find anything about this on the Web, but I can imagine the following: the motor stalls at too low of a voltage, which means it's no longer creating a magnetic field and thus no impedance - which essentially makes the motor a dead short. Fire, etc. results. It makes me wonder why they didn't just use a fuse... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20259|20227|2009-04-26 12:18:41|denis buggy|Re: Coupla quick questions|BEN ALL HAVE BEEN REQUESTED TO DELETE PREVIOUS MATERIAL WHEN REPLYING I DELETED ALL I COULD HOWEVER YOUR ADDRESS IS MADE OF STERN STUFF , THIS IS WHY I USED LARGE CAPITALS WHEN I SIGNED OFF AT THE END OF THE LETTER TO SHOW IT IS NOT FROM YOURSELF , I HOPE THE EXPERIENCE WAS NOT TOO TRAUMATIC AND I AM SURE YOU HAVE GOT OVER IT BY NOW -- in jest Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Coupla quick questions On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 10:49:03AM +0100, denis buggy wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:27 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Coupla quick questions > > > RE STEEL MULTIHULL AND CHARGING BATTERIES . Just to make it clear: that message wasn't from me; I don't even know why it's got a header with my name on it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20260|20227|2009-04-26 14:37:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Coupla quick questions|On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 05:26:30PM +0100, denis buggy wrote: > BEN > ALL HAVE BEEN REQUESTED TO DELETE PREVIOUS MATERIAL WHEN REPLYING Not exactly; the usual protocol is to cite only the material that you're replying to. Deleting everything is a reasonable fallback when the person replying lacks sufficient brainpower to do the former, though. :) > I > DELETED ALL I COULD HOWEVER YOUR ADDRESS IS MADE OF STERN STUFF , Yeah, I welded it up out of titanium. Expensive, but worth it! > THIS IS WHY I USED LARGE CAPITALS WHEN I SIGNED OFF AT THE END OF THE > LETTER TO SHOW IT IS NOT FROM YOURSELF As opposed to small capitals? I tend to use those, myself; Albany, New York and Pierre, South Dakota are my favorites. > , I HOPE THE EXPERIENCE WAS NOT > TOO TRAUMATIC AND I AM SURE YOU HAVE GOT OVER IT BY NOW -- in jest > Denis Years and years of therapy, my friend. I'll be sure to send you the bills. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20262|20234|2009-04-27 16:05:07|brentswain38|Re: Gulf of Mexica|From Panama west, a litle old lady in bathtub could almost sail it safely. That is an extremly mellow stretch of ocean , as long as you avoid the hurricane season. The trick when leaving Panama is to sail south to the southeast tradewinds and out of the doldrums, which are very wide there. You can be becalmed for weeks west of the Galapagos with great steady tradewinds only 100 miles south of you. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > Thanks Shane, I take it you don't like multi-hulls. :). > > > > I don't disagree with what you have said but don't think we should really > get into the multihull versus monohull debate on a steel boat forum. :). I > am going with a conservative sailor like myself and we won't push it. I > admit that I wish it was a 50 foot multi rather than a 35 footer since that > would be much less likely to run into troubles. It should be a learning > experience, to say the least. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > Paul, > > I crewed on a Paterson 37' tri from Nawilliwill Harbour, Kawaii to Long > Beach California in '78. 17 days as the north pacific high was quite far > north at the time. > > Coupla thoughts > - a monohull is designed to stay upright. big chunk of lead on the underside > so if it capsizes/pitchpoles or whatever, it comes up. the combination of > gravity and the basic design do that, just add time. Ok, how about a multi > hull.....sure, they go like shit through a goose, but they are equally > stable upside down as they are right side up. Ever hear of a mono hull > breaking up when it wasnt being smashed against a reef or something? Ever > hear of a milti breaking up? > - how about weather? in a mono, wind pipes up you reef, more puff, reef some > more, gets wild, you end up with bare poles, probably dragging something > with your butt wedged into your bunk hopefully with a thermos of hot soup & > something to eat & something to read. a multi? the wind gets up and you get > busy as it's got to be hand steered, if really blowing you probably need a > droge. watch that lift in the swells cuz if it gets under the wings it's > sooooo easy to pas I might be wrong, but weather will just keep going > whereas a man tends to tire in just a single day..... > > A milti is a gas inshore and they go like hell, lots of room, stable > paltform, lots of fun. but offshore they are just like cocane... you can > fucking fly, but the landing is potentially really hard. an accident looking > for a place to happen. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20263|20234|2009-04-27 18:29:25|Paul Wilson|Re: Gulf of Mexica|Thanks Brent. I am really looking forward to that part of the trip. Paul From Panama west, a litle old lady in bathtub could almost sail it safely. That is an extremly mellow stretch of ocean , as long as you avoid the hurricane season. The trick when leaving Panama is to sail south to the southeast tradewinds and out of the doldrums, which are very wide there. You can be becalmed for weeks west of the Galapagos with great steady tradewinds only 100 miles south of you. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20264|20234|2009-04-27 19:09:46|Donal Philby|Re: Gulf of Mexica|-----Original Message----- >From: brentswain38 >From Panama west, a litle old lady in bathtub could almost sail it safely. That is an extremly mellow stretch of ocean , as long as you avoid the hurricane season. I just got an email two days ago from friends several days out of the Galapagos on the way to the Marguesas and they reported that they were "flying along racking up 130+ nautical mile days and we've been hanging on (literally) for the ride. Waves have been unusually big - up to almost 4 meters - and we're often looking up at a green-blue pinnacle of a mountain of water heading directly at us." Downhill on the Hiscock highway... donal| 20265|20265|2009-04-28 07:40:29|Chris Sutton|Wylo II design|Has anyone compared the Swain design to a Wylo II ?| 20266|20234|2009-04-28 10:35:31|SHANE ROTHWELL|Gulf of Mexica|Paul, I agree & very specifically do NOT want to get into a disgussion as to the mono vs multi hull debate. In my humble opinion anyone who is foolhardy enough to go offshore in one as I did as a kid, deserves everything they get & if they get into trouble, should be left to their own devices. Now lets get back to the subject of real boats Shane __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca| 20268|20265|2009-04-28 18:47:48|kingsknight4life|Re: Wylo II design|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Sutton" wrote: > > Has anyone compared the Swain design to a Wylo II ? > There is a comparison on the Wylo group, I believe. Very similair philosophies behind both boats. Strong, simple and seaworthy first and foremost, seems to be the common theme. Rowland| 20269|20265|2009-04-29 05:31:29|sae140|Re: Wylo II design|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Sutton" wrote: > > Has anyone compared the Swain design to a Wylo II ? > The Wylo (meaning "White Man") has more sailplan options (marconi, gaff and junk) than the Swain, and has a c/b keel option, but no twin keel version - except at least one known maverick boat. On the negative side, the Wylo is multi-chine - the hardness of which is softened by inserting an on-edge solid 'D-bar' into each chine, so that's a minimum of 4 weld passes per chine. The construction frames are left in place as they are suitably spaced to form supports for bulkheads etc. Different construction method, but a very similar philosophy: "functionality above appearance".| 20270|20234|2009-04-29 06:38:04|deniswig|Re: Gulf of Mexica|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > Paul, > > I agree & very specifically do NOT want to get into a disgussion as to the mono vs multi hull debate. > > In my humble opinion anyone who is foolhardy enough to go offshore in one as I did as a kid, deserves everything they get & if they get into trouble, should be left to their own devices. > > Now lets get back to the subject of real boats > > Shane > Shane read your post slowly again and picture yourself and all the others gathered around some kid in trouble at sea--- shouting---- drown you little bastard drown and take your cursed multihull with you --sometimes this site can teach you a lot of things you never thought possible. regards denis > > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > | 20271|20234|2009-04-29 15:36:31|brentswain38|Re: Gulf of Mexica|I've seen current indicators on the pilot charts that show a westward current of up to 75 miles a day in that area. Add that to your speed thru the water.I've never seen big seas down there, nor heard of anyone seeing any. The climate is definitley changing. Everyone makes good time on that run, as long as they go far enough south to get out of the doldrums and into the SE Trades. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Donal Philby wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > >From: brentswain38 > > >From Panama west, a litle old lady in bathtub could almost sail it safely. That is an extremly mellow stretch of ocean , as long as you avoid the hurricane season. > > I just got an email two days ago from friends several days out of the Galapagos on the way to the Marguesas and they reported that they were "flying along racking up 130+ nautical mile days and we've been hanging on (literally) for the ride. Waves have been unusually big - up to almost 4 meters - and we're often looking up at a green-blue pinnacle of a mountain of water heading directly at us." > > Downhill on the Hiscock highway... > > donal > | 20272|20265|2009-04-29 15:45:38|brentswain38|Re: Wylo II design|I've never sen much point in the junk or gaff rig . I've sailed both. They are both far more complex with no real advantages. You don't walk into a boaters exchange , buy a sail for either for far less than the material cost , hoist it and go sailing within the hour. Centreboards only reduce the draft of my boats by one foot, not worth it, for the troubles of having moving parts below the waterline. A friend had me send a copy of my book to Nick Skeats. He has helped a lot of cruisers get sailing cheaply and safely , while avoiding the consumerism bullshit. With his many circumnavigations, it is hard for advocates of the " Be reasonable and do it the hard and expensive way" to deny his experience, or refute his practical and well proven ideas. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Sutton" wrote: > > > > Has anyone compared the Swain design to a Wylo II ? > > > > The Wylo (meaning "White Man") has more sailplan options (marconi, gaff and junk) than the Swain, and has a c/b keel option, but no twin keel version - except at least one known maverick boat. > > On the negative side, the Wylo is multi-chine - the hardness of which is softened by inserting an on-edge solid 'D-bar' into each chine, so that's a minimum of 4 weld passes per chine. The construction frames are left in place as they are suitably spaced to form supports for bulkheads etc. > > Different construction method, but a very similar philosophy: "functionality above appearance". > | 20273|20273|2009-04-29 16:42:28|brentswain38|Melting Ballast|Haidan told me about the way he melted his ballast using wood heat inside a 45 gallon steel drum with the lead pot inside that, saving a lot of cash in propane. Haidan, could you fill us in on the details? Brent| 20274|20273|2009-04-29 17:05:57|Paul Wilson|Re: Melting Ballast|I melted some lead to make ingots using a wood fire. I had a 45 gallon drum to contain the fire and an old barbecue lid for a mold. It didn't seem to be hot enough until I turned my shop vacuum hose blowing into the fire like a forge. As soon as I did that, it was worked just as well as propane, if not better. Cheers, Paul >>>>Haidan told me about the way he melted his ballast using wood heat inside a 45 gallon steel drum with the lead pot inside that, saving a lot of cash in propane. Haidan, could you fill us in on the details? Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20275|22|2009-04-29 17:59:41|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./229AFSAIL.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Imagiro 39 You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229AFSAIL.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20276|20273|2009-04-29 18:14:53|David Frantz|Re: Melting Ballast|Hi guys; The method below is well known, adding oxygen to a wood or charcoal fire well significantly increase heat output. Two other yahoo groups come to mind when talking about melting metal, they are Gingery Machines and Backyard Matal Casting. The Gingery Group covers building machine tools out of Aluminum scrape in a DIY fashion. On the other hand none of these groups deal with the volume of metal needed for a keel. The low melting point of lead should allow for continous melting though. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 29, 2009, at 5:05 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > I melted some lead to make ingots using a wood fire. I had a 45 > gallon drum > to contain the fire and an old barbecue lid for a mold. It didn't > seem to > be hot enough until I turned my shop vacuum hose blowing into the > fire like > a forge. > As soon as I did that, it was worked just as well as propane, if not > better. > > > > Cheers, Paul > >>>>> Haidan told me about the way he melted his ballast using wood heat > inside a 45 gallon steel drum with the lead pot inside that, saving > a lot of > cash in propane. Haidan, could you fill us in on the details? > Brent > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20277|20273|2009-04-30 06:56:25|Wally Paine|Re: Melting Ballast|A similar furnace  (i.e. using a 45 gallon drum) should surly be made with a fan blowing air round the inside circumference of the drum at the bottom. On would feed diesel in where the air enters the drum. I have used a similar  furnace which was no more than a similar sized (to a 45 gallon drum) hole in the ground lined with fire bricks. I could get it up about 1300 C in about 90 minutes  which was enough  enough to smelt the gold concentrates I had to treat. Wally Paine   --- On Wed, 29/4/09, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Melting Ballast To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 11:10 PM Hi guys; The method below is well known, adding oxygen to a wood or charcoal fire well significantly increase heat output. Two other yahoo groups come to mind when talking about melting metal, they are Gingery Machines and Backyard Matal Casting. The Gingery Group covers building machine tools out of Aluminum scrape in a DIY fashion. On the other hand none of these groups deal with the volume of metal needed for a keel. The low melting point of lead should allow for continous melting though. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 29, 2009, at 5:05 PM, Paul Wilson wrote: > I melted some lead to make ingots using a wood fire. I had a 45 > gallon drum > to contain the fire and an old barbecue lid for a mold. It didn't > seem to > be hot enough until I turned my shop vacuum hose blowing into the > fire like > a forge. > As soon as I did that, it was worked just as well as propane, if not > better. > > > > Cheers, Paul > >>>>> Haidan told me about the way he melted his ballast using wood heat > inside a 45 gallon steel drum with the lead pot inside that, saving > a lot of > cash in propane. Haidan, could you fill us in on the details? > Brent > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20278|20265|2009-04-30 08:06:18|sae140|Re: Wylo II design|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Sutton" wrote: > > Has anyone compared the Swain design to a Wylo II ? > In the spirit of free distribution of information, I've just uploaded scans of a set of (2005) Wylo-II study plans into the /Files section. These are sent out by Nick Skeates free of charge on request, but I thought I'd save him some postage ! Look-in at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wylo-II/ if you want more info. Colin| 20279|20273|2009-04-30 10:20:37|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Melting Ballast|Hi All Glad to be back.Emails bouncing and ISP probs have kept me away from the group for about 4 months. The more DIY end of the local scrap fraternity used to use an inclined steel chute with a wood fire underneath for cable burning.The burnt copper wire stayed on the chute and the lead ran down the chute into a mould. Adaptable idea? cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 20280|20273|2009-04-30 11:45:29|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Melting Ballast|Hi all For what its' worth......when I melted the ballast for my 40' I used an stainless "beer keg" mounted on a crude stand and heated it with a propane "Tiger Torch". It took about 6 hrs to melt 7000 lbs. If you use this process, beg/borrow/rent a large volume fan and hose to draw all the fumes away from the area where you are working (feeding the lead into the pot). The fumes will cause permanent brain damage. Gord ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Wilson Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 14:06 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Melting Ballast To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > I melted some lead to make ingots using a wood fire. I had > a 45 gallon drum > to contain the fire and an old barbecue lid for a mold. It > didn't seem to > be hot enough until I turned my shop vacuum hose blowing into > the fire like > a forge. > As soon as I did that, it was worked just as well as propane, if > not better. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > >>>>Haidan told me about the way he melted his ballast using > wood heat > inside a 45 gallon steel drum with the lead pot inside that, > saving a lot of > cash in propane. Haidan, could you fill us in on the details? > Brent > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20281|20273|2009-04-30 14:39:08|brentswain38|Re: Melting Ballast|I wonder if standing upwind in a 25 knot wind would do the same. Easy to minimise your time at the pot. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > Hi all > For what its' worth......when I melted the ballast for my 40' I used an stainless "beer keg" mounted on a crude stand and heated it with a propane "Tiger Torch". It took about 6 hrs to melt 7000 lbs. > If you use this process, beg/borrow/rent a large volume fan and hose to draw all the fumes away from the area where you are working (feeding the lead into the pot). The fumes will cause permanent brain damage. > Gord > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul Wilson > Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 14:06 > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Melting Ballast > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > I melted some lead to make ingots using a wood fire. I had > > a 45 gallon drum > > to contain the fire and an old barbecue lid for a mold. It > > didn't seem to > > be hot enough until I turned my shop vacuum hose blowing into > > the fire like > > a forge. > > As soon as I did that, it was worked just as well as propane, if > > not better. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > >>>>Haidan told me about the way he melted his ballast using > > wood heat > > inside a 45 gallon steel drum with the lead pot inside that, > > saving a lot of > > cash in propane. Haidan, could you fill us in on the details? > > Brent > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20282|20273|2009-04-30 18:42:20|edward_stoneuk|Re: Melting Ballast|There are three photos of our lead melting and pouring equipment in the photos section under 36' Fly. We made a melting/pouring pot out of a piece of 7" pipe with twin handles with cross handles at each end welded to it. The "furnace" is an angle frame to carry the two handles of the melting pot and to locate the insulation board walls. The floor is expanded steel mesh about 3" above the ground to let the air in. We used wood and coal with no forced air, although we used a hot air gun to help start the fire off. When it got going it drew well, especially if we move the sides in close to the pot to create a chimney effect. It used very little fuel. If the lead got too hot more crud formed, which I assumed was the lead oxidising, so excessive temperatures are to be avoided. We used mainly scrap lead sheet and weighed out each load before filling the melting pot, so that we filled the two keels equally and didn't get an excessive weight in the pot making it dangerous to move with. We filled the keels before lifting them into place in the hull. Hope this helps. Regards, Ted| 20283|20273|2009-04-30 21:54:22|theboilerflue|Re: Melting Ballast|> Haidan told me about the way he melted his ballast using wood heat inside a 45 gallon steel drum with the lead pot inside that, saving a lot of cash in propane. Haidan, could you fill us in on the details? > Brent Yea it worked pretty good. I took a propane bottle cut the bottom off (filled with water first and used a zip cut, wanted to keep my hands, arm and fingers ect.) turned it over took out the valve screwed in a pipe elbow and a pipe with a gate valve on it and welded a couple of pipes on the sides for handles. Then I first tried heating it with propane, rented a "corn cooker" they called it which was basically just a large single burner stove and tried to get the lead steaming away in there pot but it just didn't work quite as well as i thought it would so I grabbed an old metal oil drum, some old (and wet) mill cuts left around the farm, cut some notches in the top to hold the pot and some air holes in the bottom and a hole for the pipe to fit through and then had a merry (and toxic) time all weekend pouring lead into ingots. When i got the pot full enough i just took a tiger torch and heated the valve up till i could open it (and poured away) the only thing i would do different would be to make up ingolt that are the right size or close to fit in the keels although using the torch afterward to melt the lead into the keels wasn't that bad just make sure to have a few full bottles of propane cause the tiger torch only works well at full pressure after a little while it won't melt the lead fast enough and well I cause a little bit of distortion in the front of my keel which took a whole day to pull out with a piece of ready rod and still there is a dimple (popped in) on the starboard keel. But at full pressure the tiger torch sould melt that stuff right away, which it did fine for the first keel but lagged a bit on the second. Oh yah and use dry wood I had a hell of a time trying to get the fire up to heat but once i did i couldn't pour fast enough and watch out for who ever is down wind of you, I used lead form the scrap yard and that meant roofing tar toilet seating wax and anything else you could imagine mix with toxic lead fumes luckily i live out in the middle of nowhere and there was a constant breeze away from my house. It was lot's of fun if it wasn't so toxic i'd do it again, also don't do it in the rain the heat from the fire keeps the rain away from the pot but putting wet chunks of lead into a melting pot causes lots of hot spitting lead to fly every where and although it leave a beautiful shiny pattern all over the ground it burns the arms and the face| 20284|20273|2009-05-01 14:00:02|brentswain38|Re: Melting Ballast|Ted How difficult was it to move and raise the keels with the lead in them? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > There are three photos of our lead melting and pouring equipment in the photos section under 36' Fly. We made a melting/pouring pot out of a piece of 7" pipe with twin handles with cross handles at each end welded to it. The "furnace" is an angle frame to carry the two handles of the melting pot and to locate the insulation board walls. The floor is expanded steel mesh about 3" above the ground to let the air in. We used wood and coal with no forced air, although we used a hot air gun to help start the fire off. When it got going it drew well, especially if we move the sides in close to the pot to create a chimney effect. It used very little fuel. If the lead got too hot more crud formed, which I assumed was the lead oxidising, so excessive temperatures are to be avoided. We used mainly scrap lead sheet and weighed out each load before filling the melting pot, so that we filled the two keels equally and didn't get an excessive weight in the pot making it dangerous to move with. We filled the keels before lifting them into place in the hull. > > Hope this helps. > > Regards, > > Ted > | 20286|20273|2009-05-02 18:08:23|edward_stoneuk|Re: Melting Ballast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Ted > How difficult was it to move and raise the keels with the lead in them? > Brent It was easier than we thought it would be. When full of lead the keels sat upright on their wing bases as we dragged them in position using a chain hoist laid on its side with the endless chain twisted so that the chain returning to the gypsy was supported by the chain being pulled. This to avoid the chain jamming in the gypsy. Before filling the keels we canted them over a bit so the molten lead could flow into the toe of the keel wing. We also positioned them so that they mostly lined up with their respective slots in the hull. We lifted them into position using two chain hoists hooked onto lugs welded to the cabin top which was reinforced with steel and timber struts. Scaffold pole struts were welded to the hull to keep it stable and level. Come alongs, chocks and jacks were used to get the correct keel angles before they were welded into place. Hasidan mentioned about using a tiger torch to melt lead in the keel. We did this to remove splashes where we did not want lead and to fill the voids left when the lead solidified and shrunk away from the side. It caused distortion of the steel sides as has been mentioned, so I would also recommend caution. In the end we made a wooden shute to guide the molten lead where we wanted it. I used wood as it cools the lead less thasn a steel one and it's easy. It did several pours before it caught fire but that was easily put out by brushing with a leather gloved hand. Don't use water as the ensuing steam and spitting molten lead can be unpleasant. There is a photo (photos section under 36' Fly) of the two chain hoists being used to lift the port keel into place. Regards, Ted| 20287|20234|2009-05-03 12:04:49|SHANE ROTHWELL|Gulf of Mexica|Dennis, Had to laugh re the scenario you painted & your comment "Drown you little bastard drown". Kinda catchy. It might do well on the 'Pop' music chart set to the tune of "Dance little Sister Dance". Maybe you didn't notice that I said they are lots of fun, go like hell (and frankly are ideal for the standard booze cruise/fornacatorium). Perhaps you also missed that I said they are entirely unsiutable for offshore work. Admitedly my experience with multi hulls is rather limited. 20 days, 26,2700 miles, Max wind was under 35 knotts. Then again I was just a kid at the time. Sounds like you must have many many years of offshore experience in multi hulls to be such a strong supporter of such a remarkable technology? Ok, the kid inshore, of course you pick the stupid little bugger out of the water (sink the shit in the process for safety of all) and hopefully he gets his little bottom paddled by daddy and acutally learns something from the experience. But offshore? Would you support someone who goes hunting for griz with a 22? (just piss em off wouldn't it? you know, griz shit smells of pepper & has little bells in it?) How about muzzle swallowers? Can I interest you in game of solitaire' Russian Roulette? Hey, you might just get away with any one of those....but you want me to condone that which is on par do you? Over the last approximate 1,000 years, maybe a bit more, that man has been going offshore, in all variety of boats there is lots of empiratical (sp) evidence of what works. Millions, rather, hundreds of millons of voyages. The common thread? use what works. build a strong hull (and just how do you do that with a multi?????) put a stick for laundry on top and and the biggest bloody weight she'll carry below to creat a fulcurm so no matter what happens, provided she's still intact, she comes upright. Period. it generally works, provided the hull is solid and hasn't been belted against something else, or flooded Dennis, what I really don't get is that you are building a Brentboat aren't you? It appears you follow the logic presented on this site, that of the simple, solid and functional and and are teeth & eyes into it. I just do not understand why on earth you would support idocy so strongly, attempting to slander me in the process Then again, maybe I've missed something. Maybe there is tons of evidence proving beond any shaddow of a doubt that this wonderful vastly superiour revolutionary multi hull technology (that really should replace the standard thinking once all those luddites have finally seen the light and been shown the way). I'm all ears. So, can we drop this crap and get back to the point of it all, the common interest we all have in BOATS. Shane __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/| 20288|20234|2009-05-03 12:30:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gulf of Mexica|On Sun, May 03, 2009 at 09:04:48AM -0700, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Over the last approximate 1,000 years, maybe a bit more, that man has > been going offshore, in all variety of boats there is lots of > empiratical (sp) evidence of what works. Millions, rather, hundreds of > millons of voyages. The common thread? use what works. By that reasoning, multihulls win out - overwhelmingly. The Polynesians were making long voyages way before anybody else poked their noses out of a safe harbor or a coastwise run - and they were *not* doing it in monohulls. There are still one hell of a lot of boats, working and pleasure, being built every single day, that have more than one hull - and the most modern, high-tech craft are almost all multihulls. What works *for me* is a monohull - I like the price, the relative ease of construction, the broad availability, the relative ease of finding a slip (I don't do that normally, but I don't want to lose the option for no reason), and so on. However, "I like monohulls" does not automatically translate to "anyone with a multihull is a f***ing MORON!!!!!!!" in my world, and it would be nice if what was being said here didn't smack of that kind of "thinking". > build a strong > hull (and just how do you do that with a multi?????) Just like you do with a mono. Ever see a steel trimaran? I've seen a number of them. > put a stick for > laundry on top and and the biggest bloody weight she'll carry below to > creat a fulcurm so no matter what happens, provided she's still > intact, she comes upright. Period. No, comma. That's what you use for a conjunction/splice, you know. Monohulls are not the only possible design. A multihull achieves stability by other means: a lot of initial stability by rather obvious means, and ultimate stability - if it's deemed necessary - with a masthead float. I've even seen a tri where the owner put up an instant-inflate bag at the top, kinda like a car airbag. Multihulls, whatever you think, are not inherently less seaworthy than monohulls; in fact, you could make the opposite argument rather easily. > it generally works, provided the > hull is solid and hasn't been belted against something else, or > flooded True for multihulls as well. > Then again, maybe I've missed something. I'm glad you asked; the answer is a loud and clear "YES". :) Dogmatic statements are rarely true - primarily because the real world has exceptions to just about everything. Any overbearingly authoritative generality like "monohulls are better than multihulls" is automatically going to be wrong. > So, can we drop this crap and get back to the point of it all, the > common interest we all have in BOATS. That's what multihulls are, just like monohulls. That's what was being discussed. Did you have anything to add? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20289|20289|2009-05-04 12:20:12|Aaron|Sails|To the sail makers in the group Can a Schooner sail be cut for a Sloop rig? I found one that is 44x23 Thanks Aaron| 20290|20289|2009-05-04 12:47:47|Aaron Williams|Re: Sails|Maybe I should have asked this question a little differently after looking around a little bit. I found this on Craiglist and asked without thinking. Would it be worth while to buy all 8 of these sails and cut them to fit my BS36 http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/boa/1148373836.html --- On Mon, 5/4/09, Aaron wrote: From: Aaron Subject: [origamiboats] Sails To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 8:20 AM To the sail makers in the group Can a Schooner sail be cut for a Sloop rig? I found one that is 44x23 Thanks Aaron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20291|20289|2009-05-04 14:56:43|brentswain38|Re: Sails|Such a deal. Yes ,they can be easily recut to fit your boat, no problem. I've recut all kinds of sails to fit my boat, no problem. If you give the dimensions I can suggest ways for you to cut them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Maybe I should have asked this question a little differently after looking around a little bit. > I found this on Craiglist and asked without thinking. > Would it be worth while to buy all 8 of these sails and cut them to fit my BS36 > > http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/boa/1148373836.html > > --- On Mon, 5/4/09, Aaron wrote: > > From: Aaron > Subject: [origamiboats] Sails > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 8:20 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To the sail makers in the group > > > > Can a Schooner sail be cut for a Sloop rig? I found one that is 44x23 > > > > Thanks > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20292|20289|2009-05-04 15:14:08|Aaron Williams|Re: Sails|Thanks Brent I hope to know more in the next day or so. Aaron --- On Mon, 5/4/09, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sails To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 10:56 AM Such a deal. Yes ,they can be easily recut to fit your boat, no problem. I've recut all kinds of sails to fit my boat, no problem. If you give the dimensions I can suggest ways for you to cut them. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Maybe I should have asked this question a little differently after looking around a little bit. > I found this on Craiglist and asked without thinking. > Would it be worth while to buy all 8 of these sails and cut them to fit my BS36 > > http://sandiego. craigslist. org/nsd/boa/ 1148373836. html > > --- On Mon, 5/4/09, Aaron wrote: > > From: Aaron > Subject: [origamiboats] Sails > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 8:20 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To the sail makers in the group > > > > Can a Schooner sail be cut for a Sloop rig? I found one that is 44x23 > > > > Thanks > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20293|20234|2009-05-04 15:21:47|brentswain38|Re: Gulf of Mexica|I wouldn't feel safe in anything that can capsize and stay that way. I wouldn't feel much confidence in a masthead float's ability to stay there during a capsize in a rough sea. Except for Hurricane season, polynesians had much more melow conditions to explore further offshore in than those in northern lattitudes. Warm, calm tradewinds are far more inducive to cruising futher offshore than high altitude conditions. Notherners had good reason to be more intimidated. Early polynesians simply didn't have the materials to build seaworthy monohulls. They had no choice but multihulls, and were unaware of the concept of a monohul that could right itself Several friends have tried multihulls recently , after years of cruising in monohulls, and are dreaming of going back to monohulls. Some said that staying flat was nice , but sailing hard in rough seas meant having to wire the kettle in the stove to stop it from jumping the 3 inch fiddles, and having to crawl on all fours to go foreward , the motion was that violent. All were surprise at how uncomforatbly snappy and jerkly the movement was. They compared it to a car on a gravel road with no shocks or springs. The structural loads of two or three hulls wanting to move independently ,is far greater than any loads on a monohull, when it comes to point loads. Altho they may be fast when empty, loaded and stocked up for the huge distances in the Pacific, they don't make any better passage times than the monohulls, as the mono's fully loaded were much closer to their designed weight , the stores and equipment being a much smaller percentage of the total. They also had three hulls to paint and maintain. This would be far less of a factor for the relatively short distances in the Caribean. There is no shortage of former multihull fanatics in New Zealand , who, after having crossed the Pacific ,cant wait to get rid of their multihull and get into a monohull. They certainly haven't caught on with long distance Pacific voyagers, for good reason and the more long distance cruising experience they have the less interest they have in multihulls. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, May 03, 2009 at 09:04:48AM -0700, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Over the last approximate 1,000 years, maybe a bit more, that man has > > been going offshore, in all variety of boats there is lots of > > empiratical (sp) evidence of what works. Millions, rather, hundreds of > > millons of voyages. The common thread? use what works. > > By that reasoning, multihulls win out - overwhelmingly. The Polynesians > were making long voyages way before anybody else poked their noses out > of a safe harbor or a coastwise run - and they were *not* doing it in > monohulls. There are still one hell of a lot of boats, working and > pleasure, being built every single day, that have more than one hull - > and the most modern, high-tech craft are almost all multihulls. > > What works *for me* is a monohull - I like the price, the relative ease > of construction, the broad availability, the relative ease of finding a > slip (I don't do that normally, but I don't want to lose the option for > no reason), and so on. However, "I like monohulls" does not > automatically translate to "anyone with a multihull is a f***ing > MORON!!!!!!!" in my world, and it would be nice if what was being said > here didn't smack of that kind of "thinking". > > > build a strong > > hull (and just how do you do that with a multi?????) > > Just like you do with a mono. Ever see a steel trimaran? I've seen a > number of them. > > > put a stick for > > laundry on top and and the biggest bloody weight she'll carry below to > > creat a fulcurm so no matter what happens, provided she's still > > intact, she comes upright. Period. > > No, comma. That's what you use for a conjunction/splice, you know. > Monohulls are not the only possible design. > > A multihull achieves stability by other means: a lot of initial > stability by rather obvious means, and ultimate stability - if it's > deemed necessary - with a masthead float. I've even seen a tri where the > owner put up an instant-inflate bag at the top, kinda like a car airbag. > Multihulls, whatever you think, are not inherently less seaworthy than > monohulls; in fact, you could make the opposite argument rather easily. > > > it generally works, provided the > > hull is solid and hasn't been belted against something else, or > > flooded > > True for multihulls as well. > > > Then again, maybe I've missed something. > > I'm glad you asked; the answer is a loud and clear "YES". :) Dogmatic > statements are rarely true - primarily because the real world has > exceptions to just about everything. Any overbearingly authoritative > generality like "monohulls are better than multihulls" is automatically > going to be wrong. > > > So, can we drop this crap and get back to the point of it all, the > > common interest we all have in BOATS. > > That's what multihulls are, just like monohulls. That's what was being > discussed. Did you have anything to add? > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20295|20295|2009-05-05 13:43:06|Gary Prebble|Inverter?|I recently bought a used cordless drill...mastercraft 19.2 volts. I plugged in the batter re-charge into my inverter. It worked for about 3 minutes...buzzing sound and then went out. It would not work in a regular house plug afterward. Could the inverter have blown the charger?... Thanks...| 20296|20295|2009-05-05 13:49:49|Carl Anderson|Re: Inverter?|Thats a probability Gary. If you have a modified sine wave inverter it could be that it didn't like it. Might have been a bad charger from the get go. Carl Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > I recently bought a used cordless drill...mastercraft 19.2 volts. I > plugged in the batter re-charge into my inverter. It worked for about 3 > minutes...buzzing sound and then went out. It would not work in a > regular house plug afterward. Could the inverter have blown the charger?... > > Thanks... > > | 20297|20295|2009-05-05 16:15:06|Paul Wilson|Re: Inverter?|I agree with Carl, it probably didn't like the square wave coming out of the inverter. Another new charger may do the same thing again. A few small electronic items like chargers or travel voltage converters may use SCRs as a regulator in the circuit. SCRs are also use for many light dimmers in a house. They are cheap, compact, efficient, and easily blown up. Paul Thats a probability Gary. If you have a modified sine wave inverter it could be that it didn't like it. Might have been a bad charger from the get go. Carl Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > I recently bought a used cordless drill...mastercraft 19.2 volts. I > plugged in the batter re-charge into my inverter. It worked for about 3 > minutes...buzzing sound and then went out. It would not work in a > regular house plug afterward. Could the inverter have blown the charger?... > > Thanks... > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20298|20295|2009-05-05 17:41:08|brentswain38|Re: Inverter?|Hunt down a 12 volt drill and you can charge or run it directly off your battery. I have been using one off the battery for a decade or more, no problems. Change the keyless chuck for a real one while you can still get the old one off, before things freeze up. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I agree with Carl, it probably didn't like the square wave coming out of the > inverter. Another new charger may do the same thing again. A few small > electronic items like chargers or travel voltage converters may use SCRs as > a regulator in the circuit. SCRs are also use for many light dimmers in a > house. They are cheap, compact, efficient, and easily blown up. > > > > Paul > > Thats a probability Gary. > If you have a modified sine wave inverter it could be that it didn't > like it. > Might have been a bad charger from the get go. > > Carl > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > I recently bought a used cordless drill...mastercraft 19.2 volts. I > > plugged in the batter re-charge into my inverter. It worked for about 3 > > minutes...buzzing sound and then went out. It would not work in a > > regular house plug afterward. Could the inverter have blown the > charger?... > > > > Thanks... > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20299|20295|2009-05-05 18:10:47|Paul Wilson|Re: Inverter?|I have done the same although it was an old Makita 9 volt drill. It runs off 12 volt fine, although a little faster. I figured it probably has a 12 volt motor in it. You could also try running an 18 volt drill on 12 volts, of course, but it will run a lot slower. If drilling metal that might be a good thing. Variable speed triggers may screw things up and might need to be by-passed. Cheers, Paul Hunt down a 12 volt drill and you can charge or run it directly off your battery. I have been using one off the battery for a decade or more, no problems. Change the keyless chuck for a real one while you can still get the old one off, before things freeze up. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20300|20295|2009-05-06 01:47:03|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|Change the keyless chuck for a *good* keyless one, like one made by jacobs in steel, if you can find one used or can afford one new. The difference is enormous. You do not need a keyed chuck. Yesterday, I looked at the absolutely superb chucks on my 2 industrial li-ion 18v Hitachi drills, and they are real drill chucks, made by the Jacos company. They are as good as the industrial one I have in my lathe. The good keyless ones, in a good drill, have no problem drilling steel in large sizes very well and efficiently. Drill bits and good technique count for a lot. The battery idea is good, and I will try it with one of the 2 Black and Decker pos drills I never use any more. If it works, I will probably put a real chuck on one, to see how well it works, and compare it to the Hitachi. For those who may not know; drilling steels (metals) absolutely demands the correct speed in surface speeds, SFM or surface feet per minute (metres per minute), to work well. Some approximations in mild steel: Small drills should be run as fast as you can 1-3 mm, 1000+ rpm max speed of your drill (2800 rpm on the Hitachi) 4-6 mm, 600 rpm, a bit slower (at full speed your drill very quickly and wear out the drill bit too fast). 7-10 mm, 300-500 rpm a primary pilot hole is indicated to drill straight, fast, and accurate (also easier) 11-13 mm, slowest speed 100-200 rpm, high speed will burn out the drill bits edge very quickly For large holes be careful and hold the drill very firmly. A sprained or broken wrist is possible, and the breaking bit at 13 mm shattering is no joke. Knowing about it, you should be ok. For Stainless steels, 30-50% slower and use a tapping fluid or cutting oil Aluminum, about 2-3 x faster (usually as fast as your drills, bits and experience allow) Good bits will cut at least 3x faster than poor ones. The difference is enormous. If it whines, the bit is dull or you are going too fast. If chips and curls come out nicely, you are going just right. Paul Wilson wrote: > > > I have done the same although it was an old Makita 9 volt drill. It runs > off 12 volt fine, although a little faster. I figured it probably has a 12 > volt motor in it. You could also try running an 18 volt drill on 12 volts, > of course, but it will run a lot slower. If drilling metal that might be a > good thing. Variable speed triggers may screw things up and might need to > be by-passed. > > Cheers, Paul > > Hunt down a 12 volt drill and you can charge or run it directly off your > battery. I have been using one off the battery for a decade or more, no > problems. Change the keyless chuck for a real one while you can still get > the old one off, before things freeze up. > Brent > > | 20301|20301|2009-05-06 09:13:52|johndean61840|Photo's, how to open?|I am new to the group. I started reading from the oldest postings. I have not been able to open the photos. Any advice? Thanks, johndean PS Until November 09 I am living in a apartment overlooking the Atlantic very close to the west jetty of the Puerta Plata, DR harbor. Anybody going buy I'd love to have over for lunch.| 20302|20295|2009-05-06 10:51:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 07:48:28AM +0200, gcode fi (hanermo) wrote: > > Drill bits and good technique count for a lot. On which subject: those of you who A) do a lot of drilling and B) value your sanity, you *must* get a Drill Doctor. Don't skimp - get the big one (750X). You'll never regret it. I learned to sharpen drill bits by hand in the machine shop at Hughes Aircraft, where the old-timers, who had all been there for 25 years or so, did it as easily as picking their teeth (I can tell you that *learning* to do it, for somebody who has never done it is "just a little" more difficult than that.) Although I could probably still do it, it would require a lot of concentration and some practice before I got it right. By contrast, when my wife got curious about this gadget, she stuck a bit in it and had it sharp - with all the correct angles *and* a split point - about a minute later (she did watch the video on their website beforehand, though.) While she was at it, she re-sharpened _all_ our dull bits. According to her, it was fun. It's not the cheapest thing in the world (~$140 on eBay/Amazon), but I can keep my drill bits while other people keep buying new. Also, knowing that all your drill bits are always as sharp as when you bought them is a hell of a big contribution to your peace of mind, and lets you drill while smiling instead of cursing. I tell you this from personal experience. :) > The battery idea is good, and I will try it with one of the 2 Black and > Decker pos drills I never use any more. If it works, I will probably put > a real chuck on one, to see how well it works, and compare it to the > Hitachi. Works great - lots of extra power (amazing amounts, in fact, if you bought good quality 12V tools to start with.) I used to love my 12V Porter-Cable drill after I wired it up; pretty much rebuilt my old boat with it. > For those who may not know; > drilling steels (metals) absolutely demands the correct speed in surface > speeds, SFM or surface feet per minute (metres per minute), to work well. > > Some approximations in mild steel: > > Small drills should be run as fast as you can > 1-3 mm, 1000+ rpm max speed of your drill (2800 rpm on the Hitachi) > 4-6 mm, 600 rpm, a bit slower (at full speed your drill very quickly and > wear out the drill bit too fast). > 7-10 mm, 300-500 rpm a primary pilot hole is indicated to drill > straight, fast, and accurate (also easier) > 11-13 mm, slowest speed 100-200 rpm, high speed will burn out the drill > bits edge very quickly > > For large holes be careful and hold the drill very firmly. > A sprained or broken wrist is possible, and the breaking bit at 13 mm > shattering is no joke. Knowing about it, you should be ok. > > For Stainless steels, 30-50% slower and use a tapping fluid or cutting oil > Aluminum, about 2-3 x faster (usually as fast as your drills, bits and > experience allow) This is a good basic reference. Again, as I learned in that machine shop, using the right speed and a good quality cutting fluid (I love Moly B!) can make _all_ the difference in the world. We had to shift belts on the pulleys in order to set the speeds on that drill press, so I learned what was required for different situations pretty definitively. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20303|20295|2009-05-06 11:02:16|maxcamirand|Re: Inverter?|The good news: Canadian Tire will surely take it back if you tell them it blew when you plugged it into the wall. Regards, -Max Camirand| 20304|20295|2009-05-06 11:11:04|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|Yes, Ben, a drill dr sharpening jig etc. can make a lot of difference. I sharpen freehand, with good- to- bad results. When they are bad, I get a new bit, and do it later. Its not so hard (unless you are in a hurry or only have 1 bit). But, I practically have a cnc machine shop downstairs, and I get practice. Now, when I get a week (maybe in 2 weeks) I will assemble a 6 axis grinder/sharpener ! I design and build cnc stuff, often for money. Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 07:48:28AM +0200, gcode fi (hanermo) wrote: > > > > Drill bits and good technique count for a lot. > > On which subject: those of you who A) do a lot of drilling and B) value > your sanity, you *must* get a Drill Doctor. Don't skimp - get the big > one (750X). You'll never regret it. > > I learned to sharpen drill bits by hand in the machine shop at Hughes > Aircraft, where the old-timers, who had all been there for 25 years or > so, did it as easily as picking their teeth (I can tell you that > *learning* to do it, for somebody who has never done it is "just a > little" more difficult than that.) Although I could probably still do > it, it would require a lot of concentration and some practice before I > got it right. By contrast, when my wife got curious about this gadget, > she stuck a bit in it and had it sharp - with all the correct angles > *and* a split point - about a minute later (she did watch the video on > their website beforehand, though.) While she was at it, she re-sharpened > _all_ our dull bits. According to her, it was fun. > > It's not the cheapest thing in the world (~$140 on eBay/Amazon), but I > can keep my drill bits while other people keep buying new. Also, knowing > that all your drill bits are always as sharp as when you bought them is > a hell of a big contribution to your peace of mind, and lets you drill > while smiling instead of cursing. I tell you this from personal > experience. :) > > > The battery idea is good, and I will try it with one of the 2 Black and > > Decker pos drills I never use any more. If it works, I will probably > put > > a real chuck on one, to see how well it works, and compare it to the > > Hitachi. > > Works great - lots of extra power (amazing amounts, in fact, if you > bought good quality 12V tools to start with.) I used to love my 12V > Porter-Cable drill after I wired it up; pretty much rebuilt my old boat > with it. > > > For those who may not know; > > drilling steels (metals) absolutely demands the correct speed in > surface > > speeds, SFM or surface feet per minute (metres per minute), to work > well. > > > > Some approximations in mild steel: > > > > Small drills should be run as fast as you can > > 1-3 mm, 1000+ rpm max speed of your drill (2800 rpm on the Hitachi) > > 4-6 mm, 600 rpm, a bit slower (at full speed your drill very quickly > and > > wear out the drill bit too fast). > > 7-10 mm, 300-500 rpm a primary pilot hole is indicated to drill > > straight, fast, and accurate (also easier) > > 11-13 mm, slowest speed 100-200 rpm, high speed will burn out the drill > > bits edge very quickly > > > > For large holes be careful and hold the drill very firmly. > > A sprained or broken wrist is possible, and the breaking bit at 13 mm > > shattering is no joke. Knowing about it, you should be ok. > > > > For Stainless steels, 30-50% slower and use a tapping fluid or > cutting oil > > Aluminum, about 2-3 x faster (usually as fast as your drills, bits and > > experience allow) > > This is a good basic reference. Again, as I learned in that machine > shop, using the right speed and a good quality cutting fluid (I love > Moly B!) can make _all_ the difference in the world. We had to shift > belts on the pulleys in order to set the speeds on that drill press, so > I learned what was required for different situations pretty > definitively. > > > - > > > > | 20305|20295|2009-05-06 11:17:07|Donal Philby|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|-----Original Message----- >From: Ben Okopnik >using the right speed and a good quality cutting fluid (I love >Moly B!) can make _all_ the difference in the world. Last year when rigging our boat I worked with a freelance rigger to help me work through the process. He had worked for years on Tall Ships as crew so was understanding of traditional rigging. At any rate, we rigged with 1x19 SS and he used a Sawzall to cut the wire. Took a long time, even with new blades. After a while I went to my drill bit and accessories box and grabbed a can of cutting oil. I poured it on the wire and--rippyzip--we went from one blade doing two cuts to one blade finishing the other 90% and each cut taking a quarter of the time. Recently a local amateur boatbuilder also recommended Jig-a-Loo spray lubricant on table saw blades to make wood just fly through the machine with less binding. He was right. donal| 20306|20295|2009-05-06 11:34:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 05:12:28PM +0200, gcode fi (hanermo) wrote: > Yes, Ben, a drill dr sharpening jig etc. can make a lot of difference. Y'know, I've tried using sharpening jigs, and never found one that was worth a damn. When a friend of mine loaned me the DD (frankly, pushed it on me like a crack dealer offering the first hit :), I was skeptical. A little while later, I became converted to The One True Faith. :) > I sharpen freehand, with good- to- bad results. > When they are bad, I get a new bit, and do it later. Its not so hard > (unless you are in a hurry or only have 1 bit). > > But, I practically have a cnc machine shop downstairs, and I get practice. Wow. I'm almost jealous... but if I had one of those, I wouldn't be able to cruise as I'm doing right now (Beaufort, SC - a beautiful town!), so I'm satisfied. > Now, when I get a week (maybe in 2 weeks) I will assemble a 6 axis > grinder/sharpener ! That would make a heck of a sharpening system! :) > I design and build cnc stuff, often for money. Oddly enough, I knew that: I ran across one of your posts in some experimental CNC group a while ago when searching for some motor speed info. The Net, as they say, is a small place. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20307|20234|2009-05-06 14:18:00|SHANE ROTHWELL|Gulf of Mexica|Attn: THE “Editor-in-Chief” Dear Sir, In your last posting, in the last line, you asked if I had anything to add. I do. Isn’t it absolutely amazing what the combination of force of will, the loudest voice and the seemingly standardized practice, (as perfected by Fox “news”) of yelling an opponent down when logic entirely escapes them, these highly esteemed (obviously by some) traits, combined with wishful thinking, lack of observation or any firsthand experience whatsoever, or any concerted thought, are capable of producing? Could this be possible due to ones environment? If one were raised in an environment where they were taught from birth that they were vastly superior to ALL else, (there’s your fucking comma “mate”) Period. Where, if the bearing of a club over the head of the owner of ANYTHING you want does not entirely submit, “standard” practice is to blow his fucking brains out & take the bloody lot as initially planned anyway. Yes, genocide for personal gain. Works today just as it did in the Philippines in 1896 and in each and every “engagement” since. Tends to remind all exactly who is in charge and generate submission doesn’t it? Respect, however, is earned. No exceptions. Period. I would tend to agree with your statement that “Dogmatic statements are rarely true”, yet you trust the american military who runs the GPS system and tell me that the ONLY reason that I am safe is due to their “protection”. I have only one answer to that idiocy. Blow me. I will leave the last word to you, with a reiteration of one of your own statements which is one of the only other things you have ever said that I agree with “Any overbearingly authoritative generality is automatically going to be wrong”. Shane Rothwell Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Mon May 4, 2009 12:21 pm (PDT) I wouldn't feel safe in anything that can capsize and stay that way. I wouldn't feel much confidence in a masthead float's ability to stay there during a capsize in a rough sea. Except for Hurricane season, polynesians had much more melow conditions to explore further offshore in than those in northern lattitudes. Warm, calm tradewinds are far more inducive to cruising futher offshore than high altitude conditions. Notherners had good reason to be more intimidated. Early polynesians simply didn't have the materials to build seaworthy monohulls. They had no choice but multihulls, and were unaware of the concept of a monohul that could right itself Several friends have tried multihulls recently , after years of cruising in monohulls, and are dreaming of going back to monohulls. Some said that staying flat was nice , but sailing hard in rough seas meant having to wire the kettle in the stove to stop it from jumping the 3 inch fiddles, and having to crawl on all fours to go foreward , the motion was that violent. All were surprise at how uncomforatbly snappy and jerkly the movement was. They compared it to a car on a gravel road with no shocks or springs. The structural loads of two or three hulls wanting to move independently ,is far greater than any loads on a monohull, when it comes to point loads. Altho they may be fast when empty, loaded and stocked up for the huge distances in the Pacific, they don't make any better passage times than the monohulls, as the mono's fully loaded were much closer to their designed weight , the stores and equipment being a much smaller percentage of the total. They also had three hulls to paint and maintain. This would be far less of a factor for the relatively short distances in the Caribean. There is no shortage of former multihull fanatics in New Zealand , who, after having crossed the Pacific ,cant wait to get rid of their multihull and get into a monohull. They certainly haven't caught on with long distance Pacific voyagers, for good reason and the more long distance cruising experience they have the less interest they have in multihulls. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, May 03, 2009 at 09:04:48AM -0700, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Over the last approximate 1,000 years, maybe a bit more, that man has > > been going offshore, in all variety of boats there is lots of > > empiratical (sp) evidence of what works. Millions, rather, hundreds of > > millons of voyages. The common thread? use what works. > > By that reasoning, multihulls win out - overwhelmingly. The Polynesians > were making long voyages way before anybody else poked their noses out > of a safe harbor or a coastwise run - and they were *not* doing it in > monohulls. There are still one hell of a lot of boats, working and > pleasure, being built every single day, that have more than one hull - > and the most modern, high-tech craft are almost all multihulls. > > What works *for me* is a monohull - I like the price, the relative ease > of construction, the broad availability, the relative ease of finding a > slip (I don't do that normally, but I don't want to lose the option for > no reason), and so on. However, "I like monohulls" does not > automatically translate to "anyone with a multihull is a f***ing > MORON!!!!!!! " in my world, and it would be nice if what was being said > here didn't smack of that kind of "thinking". > > > build a strong > > hull (and just how do you do that with a multi?????) > > Just like you do with a mono. Ever see a steel trimaran? I've seen a > number of them. > > > put a stick for > > laundry on top and and the biggest bloody weight she'll carry below to > > creat a fulcurm so no matter what happens, provided she's still > > intact, she comes upright. Period. > > No, comma. That's what you use for a conjunction/ splice, you know. > Monohulls are not the only possible design. > > A multihull achieves stability by other means: a lot of initial > stability by rather obvious means, and ultimate stability - if it's > deemed necessary - with a masthead float. I've even seen a tri where the > owner put up an instant-inflate bag at the top, kinda like a car airbag. > Multihulls, whatever you think, are not inherently less seaworthy than > monohulls; in fact, you could make the opposite argument rather easily. > > > it generally works, provided the > > hull is solid and hasn't been belted against something else, or > > flooded > > True for multihulls as well. > > > Then again, maybe I've missed something. > > I'm glad you asked; the answer is a loud and clear "YES". :) Dogmatic > statements are rarely true - primarily because the real world has > exceptions to just about everything. Any overbearingly authoritative > generality like "monohulls are better than multihulls" is automatically > going to be wrong. > > > So, can we drop this crap and get back to the point of it all, the > > common interest we all have in BOATS. > > That's what multihulls are, just like monohulls. That's what was being > discussed. Did you have anything to add? > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. | 20308|20301|2009-05-06 14:48:52|edward_stoneuk|Re: Photo's, how to open?|Hi John, Have you joined the group? Until you do only Home and Messages are available. Regards, Ted > I am new to the group. I started reading from the oldest postings. I have not been able to open the photos. Any advice? > > Thanks, johndean > > PS Until November 09 I am living in a apartment overlooking the Atlantic very close to the west jetty of the Puerta Plata, DR harbor. Anybody going buy I'd love to have over for lunch. > | 20309|20234|2009-05-06 17:12:30|polaris041|Re: Gulf of Mexica|Good observation Shane; I too am bemused by "Ben". The guy must be as old as mathoozalah. One day just for fun I will scour the postings on this site and correlate the number of things/jobs Ben has been/done. Just today I gleaned he spent time at Hughes. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > Attn: THE “Editor-in-Chief” > > Dear Sir, > > In your last posting, in the last line, you asked if I had anything to add. I do. > > Isn’t it absolutely amazing what the combination of force of will, the loudest voice and the seemingly standardized practice, (as perfected by Fox “news”) of yelling an opponent down when logic entirely escapes them, these highly esteemed (obviously by some) traits, combined with wishful thinking, lack of observation or any firsthand experience whatsoever, or any concerted thought, are capable of producing? > > Could this be possible due to ones environment? If one were raised in an environment where they were taught from birth that they were vastly superior to ALL else, (there’s your fucking comma “mate”) Period. Where, if the bearing of a club over the head of the owner of ANYTHING you want does not entirely submit, “standard” practice is to blow his fucking brains out & take the bloody lot as initially planned anyway. Yes, genocide for personal gain. Works today just as it did in the Philippines in 1896 and in each and every “engagement” since. Tends to remind all exactly who is in charge and generate submission doesn’t it? Respect, however, is earned. No exceptions. Period. > > I would tend to agree with your statement that “Dogmatic statements are rarely true”, yet you trust the american military who runs the GPS system and tell me that the ONLY reason that I am safe is due to their “protection”. I have only one answer to that idiocy. Blow me. > > I will leave the last word to you, with a reiteration of one of your own statements which is one of the only other things you have ever said that I agree with “Any overbearingly authoritative generality is automatically going to be wrong”. > > > Shane Rothwell > > > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 > Mon May 4, 2009 12:21 pm (PDT) > > > I wouldn't feel safe in anything that can capsize and stay that way. I wouldn't feel much confidence in a masthead float's ability to stay there during a capsize in a rough sea. > Except for Hurricane season, polynesians had much more melow conditions to explore further offshore in than those in northern lattitudes. Warm, calm tradewinds are far more inducive to cruising futher offshore than high altitude conditions. Notherners had good reason to be more intimidated. Early polynesians simply didn't have the materials to build seaworthy monohulls. They had no choice but multihulls, and were unaware of the concept of a monohul that could right itself > Several friends have tried multihulls recently , after years of cruising in monohulls, and are dreaming of going back to monohulls. Some said that staying flat was nice , but sailing hard in rough seas meant having to wire the kettle in the stove to stop it from jumping the 3 inch fiddles, and having to crawl on all fours to go foreward , the motion was that violent. All were surprise at how uncomforatbly snappy and jerkly the movement was. They compared it to a car on a gravel road with no shocks or springs. > The structural loads of two or three hulls wanting to move independently ,is far greater than any loads on a monohull, when it comes to point loads. > Altho they may be fast when empty, loaded and stocked up for the huge distances in the Pacific, they don't make any better passage times than the monohulls, as the mono's fully loaded were much closer to their designed weight , the stores and equipment being a much smaller percentage of the total. They also had three hulls to paint and maintain. This would be far less of a factor for the relatively short distances in the Caribean. > There is no shortage of former multihull fanatics in New Zealand , who, after having crossed the Pacific ,cant wait to get rid of their multihull and get into a monohull. They certainly haven't caught on with long distance Pacific voyagers, for good reason and the more long distance cruising experience they have the less interest they have in multihulls. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 03, 2009 at 09:04:48AM -0700, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > > > Over the last approximate 1,000 years, maybe a bit more, that man has > > > been going offshore, in all variety of boats there is lots of > > > empiratical (sp) evidence of what works. Millions, rather, hundreds of > > > millons of voyages. The common thread? use what works. > > > > By that reasoning, multihulls win out - overwhelmingly. The Polynesians > > were making long voyages way before anybody else poked their noses out > > of a safe harbor or a coastwise run - and they were *not* doing it in > > monohulls. There are still one hell of a lot of boats, working and > > pleasure, being built every single day, that have more than one hull - > > and the most modern, high-tech craft are almost all multihulls. > > > > What works *for me* is a monohull - I like the price, the relative ease > > of construction, the broad availability, the relative ease of finding a > > slip (I don't do that normally, but I don't want to lose the option for > > no reason), and so on. However, "I like monohulls" does not > > automatically translate to "anyone with a multihull is a f***ing > > MORON!!!!!!! " in my world, and it would be nice if what was being said > > here didn't smack of that kind of "thinking". > > > > > build a strong > > > hull (and just how do you do that with a multi?????) > > > > Just like you do with a mono. Ever see a steel trimaran? I've seen a > > number of them. > > > > > put a stick for > > > laundry on top and and the biggest bloody weight she'll carry below to > > > creat a fulcurm so no matter what happens, provided she's still > > > intact, she comes upright. Period. > > > > No, comma. That's what you use for a conjunction/ splice, you know. > > Monohulls are not the only possible design. > > > > A multihull achieves stability by other means: a lot of initial > > stability by rather obvious means, and ultimate stability - if it's > > deemed necessary - with a masthead float. I've even seen a tri where the > > owner put up an instant-inflate bag at the top, kinda like a car airbag. > > Multihulls, whatever you think, are not inherently less seaworthy than > > monohulls; in fact, you could make the opposite argument rather easily. > > > > > it generally works, provided the > > > hull is solid and hasn't been belted against something else, or > > > flooded > > > > True for multihulls as well. > > > > > Then again, maybe I've missed something. > > > > I'm glad you asked; the answer is a loud and clear "YES". :) Dogmatic > > statements are rarely true - primarily because the real world has > > exceptions to just about everything. Any overbearingly authoritative > > generality like "monohulls are better than multihulls" is automatically > > going to be wrong. > > > > > So, can we drop this crap and get back to the point of it all, the > > > common interest we all have in BOATS. > > > > That's what multihulls are, just like monohulls. That's what was being > > discussed. Did you have anything to add? > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. > | 20310|20295|2009-05-06 17:57:09|brentswain38|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|I've never seen a Jacobs keyless chuck work well with steel for very long, nor heard of anyone who has had one work well for very long. None of mine has. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > > Change the keyless chuck for a *good* keyless one, like one made by > jacobs in steel, if you can find one used or can afford one new. > The difference is enormous. You do not need a keyed chuck. > > Yesterday, I looked at the absolutely superb chucks on my 2 industrial > li-ion 18v Hitachi drills, and they are real drill chucks, made by the > Jacos company. They are as good as the industrial one I have in my lathe. > The good keyless ones, in a good drill, have no problem drilling steel > in large sizes very well and efficiently. Drill bits and good technique > count for a lot. > > The battery idea is good, and I will try it with one of the 2 Black and > Decker pos drills I never use any more. If it works, I will probably put > a real chuck on one, to see how well it works, and compare it to the > Hitachi. > > For those who may not know; > drilling steels (metals) absolutely demands the correct speed in surface > speeds, SFM or surface feet per minute (metres per minute), to work well. > > Some approximations in mild steel: > > Small drills should be run as fast as you can > 1-3 mm, 1000+ rpm max speed of your drill (2800 rpm on the Hitachi) > 4-6 mm, 600 rpm, a bit slower (at full speed your drill very quickly and > wear out the drill bit too fast). > 7-10 mm, 300-500 rpm a primary pilot hole is indicated to drill > straight, fast, and accurate (also easier) > 11-13 mm, slowest speed 100-200 rpm, high speed will burn out the drill > bits edge very quickly > > For large holes be careful and hold the drill very firmly. > A sprained or broken wrist is possible, and the breaking bit at 13 mm > shattering is no joke. Knowing about it, you should be ok. > > For Stainless steels, 30-50% slower and use a tapping fluid or cutting oil > Aluminum, about 2-3 x faster (usually as fast as your drills, bits and > experience allow) > > Good bits will cut at least 3x faster than poor ones. The difference is > enormous. If it whines, the bit is dull or you are going too fast. If > chips and curls come out nicely, you are going just right. > > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > I have done the same although it was an old Makita 9 volt drill. It runs > > off 12 volt fine, although a little faster. I figured it probably has a 12 > > volt motor in it. You could also try running an 18 volt drill on 12 volts, > > of course, but it will run a lot slower. If drilling metal that might be a > > good thing. Variable speed triggers may screw things up and might need to > > be by-passed. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > Hunt down a 12 volt drill and you can charge or run it directly off your > > battery. I have been using one off the battery for a decade or more, no > > problems. Change the keyless chuck for a real one while you can still get > > the old one off, before things freeze up. > > Brent > > > > > | 20311|20295|2009-05-06 18:03:43|brentswain38|Re: Inverter?|Canadian tire warantee is not as good as it used to be. I recently bought a generator from them that had almost no compression and was very difficult to start. Initially they refused to give me my money back and said the warantee only covered repairs. I told them it was obviously a piece of shit to begin with as a friend had the same experinece with the same generator bought at the same time. It was only when I pointed out how easy it is to cost Canadian Tire many times the cost of the generator, that they relented. My friend had the same experience with them, but by pushing back hard, got his money back. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "maxcamirand" wrote: > > The good news: Canadian Tire will surely take it back if you tell them it blew when you plugged it into the wall. > > Regards, > -Max Camirand > | 20312|20312|2009-05-06 18:21:20|borealgrey|Relative advantage or disadvantage of twin keels|I've been following the list for some time and have a question, a few questions actually. I'm trying to sort out my understanding of the relative advantage/disadvantage of twin keels. I'd like to know what recovery is like after a capsize with twin keels, whether it's much the same between single or twin keels, faster, slower, etc.. Any insight would be appreciated. I'm also wondering if anyone recalls 'Chica 2' and if there is some history on its construction that can be shared. Thanks, Grant| 20313|20234|2009-05-06 21:45:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gulf of Mexica|On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 11:17:52AM -0700, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Attn: THE “Editor-in-Chief” > > Dear Sir, > > In your last posting, in the last line, you asked if I had anything to add. I do. [snip of another ignorant, ALL-CAPS-SPELLING loudmouth ranting about the US military, Philippines, Martian venereal diseases, or whatever] *Yawn* Go away, troll. [email address permanently banned from my mailbox] -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20314|20295|2009-05-06 21:50:12|Donal Philby|Re: Inverter?|-----Original Message----- >From: brentswain38 >Canadian tire warantee is not as good as it used to be. My guess is that they have the same policy of suppliers as West Marine. They both have the clout to tell all suppliers that if anything comes back in for any reason that the supplier has to take it back no questions asked. The retail company simply debits the cost from the suppliers most recent bill. I've talked to two WM suppliers and that is the case. So even if nothing wrong, lost bucks/looneys for the suppliers with no recourse. One reason to eliminate large corporations: too much power. Of course, then you'd really get an argument as a customer. I suspect that the CT people just didn't want to be bothered with the paperwork. And it's a long way to China for returns. donal| 20315|20234|2009-05-06 22:06:46|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gulf of Mexica|On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 09:12:04PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > Good observation Shane; > > I too am bemused by "Ben". The guy must be as old as mathoozalah. Why, no - I just turned 47 the other day. However, I didn't spend my life sitting in one place and gathering dust. Your assumptions about my age, jobs I've done, etc. speak quite loudly about _you_ far more than they do about me. Just to note, though: I get a lot of that (less now that I'm older; when I was 30, I used to get those wall-eyed, disbelieving stares all the time.) > One day just for fun I will scour the postings on this site and > correlate the number of things/jobs Ben has been/done. > > Just today I gleaned he spent time at Hughes. For when you do decide to look it up: that's Hughes Aircraft Company, Lomita, California. I went to work for them as a senior technician; did mostly millimeter-wave/experimental radar system construction and electronic design. I was also the senior tech and designer on the Earth-based Maser project (sponsored by the US Navy); designed the high-gain, low-noise amplifier for the Maser signal amplifier and a fast-response IMPATT-driver power supply that surpassed previous response standards. Want references? I don't suppose you would, though, since being wrong would make you look quite foolish. Feel free to ask for references for pretty much anything that I've said about myself, in fact; I've never had much to hide. That's where I get one of *my* favorite kinds of amusement: watching Doubting Thomases eating their words. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20316|20295|2009-05-06 22:44:31|theboilerflue|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|I allways find that the shoulders are wearing off all the time I'm not sure whether it's cause i'm going to fast or whether stainless is just damn hard to drill. The rest of the cutting edge is fine just the shoulder chips off. > For those who may not know; > drilling steels (metals) absolutely demands the correct speed in surface > speeds, SFM or surface feet per minute (metres per minute), to work well. > > Some approximations in mild steel: > > Small drills should be run as fast as you can > 1-3 mm, 1000+ rpm max speed of your drill (2800 rpm on the Hitachi) > 4-6 mm, 600 rpm, a bit slower (at full speed your drill very quickly and > wear out the drill bit too fast). > 7-10 mm, 300-500 rpm a primary pilot hole is indicated to drill > straight, fast, and accurate (also easier) > 11-13 mm, slowest speed 100-200 rpm, high speed will burn out the drill > bits edge very quickly > > For large holes be careful and hold the drill very firmly. > A sprained or broken wrist is possible, and the breaking bit at 13 mm > shattering is no joke. Knowing about it, you should be ok. > > For Stainless steels, 30-50% slower and use a tapping fluid or cutting oil > Aluminum, about 2-3 x faster (usually as fast as your drills, bits and > experience allow) > > Good bits will cut at least 3x faster than poor ones. The difference is > enormous. If it whines, the bit is dull or you are going too fast. If > chips and curls come out nicely, you are going just right. > > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > I have done the same although it was an old Makita 9 volt drill. It runs > > off 12 volt fine, although a little faster. I figured it probably has a 12 > > volt motor in it. You could also try running an 18 volt drill on 12 volts, > > of course, but it will run a lot slower. If drilling metal that might be a > > good thing. Variable speed triggers may screw things up and might need to > > be by-passed. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > Hunt down a 12 volt drill and you can charge or run it directly off your > > battery. I have been using one off the battery for a decade or more, no > > problems. Change the keyless chuck for a real one while you can still get > > the old one off, before things freeze up. > > Brent > > > > > | 20317|20295|2009-05-06 23:00:13|Ben Okopnik|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 02:44:19AM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > I allways find that the shoulders are wearing off all the time I'm not > sure whether it's cause i'm going to fast or whether stainless is just > damn hard to drill. The rest of the cutting edge is fine just the > shoulder chips off. The welding instructor that I had, Ken Hyde, showed me how to sharpen a bit for stainless; as I recall it, he had me grind it so that there was a slight "point" on the tip while the rest of the face was a bit flatter than average. I went from drilling maybe one hole per minute to just about "punching" holes instantly. Unfortunately, I don't remember the exact technique... and Ken's retired now (a hell of a loss to the world, in my opinion.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20318|20318|2009-05-06 23:14:49|mickeyolaf|Painting Costs|Thought I would share some of the info re the costs for supplies to paint our 36's deck, cabin, pilothouse, cockpit, basically all exterior except hull. Box of sandpaper from Lee Valley $10.00 10 x $5.00 for sanding disks $50.00 2 part high build epoxy primer $133.00 Add-a-lume powder $35.00 Base coat 2 part gray epoxy $40.40 Zolatone Silver Gray finish coat $111.00 Endura 2 part polyurethane UV clearcoat $125.00 1 gallon of cleaner reducer $36.00 plus taxes. Odds and sods ie masking tape, masks, gloves, etc about a hundred bucks. Should be good for ten years. I hope. The hull will be next. 6 coats of 2 part epoxy below the w/l, 4 above with a uv clearcoat. Haven't bought the hull paint yet.| 20319|20295|2009-05-07 01:38:48|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|Brent .. I suspect that there may be an issue with who made the chuck, maybe ? Or, the actual chuck itself is made for light duty. Many chucks are called jacobs chucks, it´s become a generic name like "xerox". I was referring to the original ones, made by Jacobs, especially the 513-1M or 5013 model on the Hitach DV18 cordless drill. These are the ones I have been very, very happy with. On this drill. http://www.toolbarn.com/product/hitachi/DS18DL/?amuc=5,60 My good quality keyless chuck on the lathe easily turns a 1.5 kW industrial motor (about 20 kg in mass) to a stop. Its 65€ retail, about 100 U$. A Spanish good quality industrial one. I wished to let people know, who may not have had the occasion to try industrial quality tools, that by simply changing the chuck, You get a vast improvement in drill run.out, gripping power, and sheer ability to do work. Industrial keyless chucks are very common for doing steel work, and work very well. No issues. The plastic hobby keyless chucks in the cheap power tools are another matter entirely. I have some, and have a very low opinion of them, failed in a very short time. For use on the boat, when I have the funds, I may go to an all-stainless industrial chuck. For boatbuilding, they are likely to last 10-20 years. (Unfotuntely, its 300$). No commercial affiliation, etc. brentswain38 wrote: > > > I've never seen a Jacobs keyless chuck work well with steel for very > long, nor heard of anyone who has had one work well for very long. > None of mine has. > Brent > > - > | 20320|20295|2009-05-07 04:18:20|David Frantz|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|I have to work with a lot of stainless at work, without a doubt it is a pain. The quality of the drill bit is important and knowing how to implement its use equally important. Below are a few suggestions to be taken with a grain of salt. 1. Once you start to feed the drill don't stop. Depending on the grade it will work harden almost instantly if you hesitate. 2. Use relatively slow RPMs to keep the velocity of the cutting edge low. 3. While the spindle is slow don't pussy foot around with feed. You want a relatively heavy feed. This was explained to me one day as keeping the fresh part of the helix under the old cut (revolution by Revolution). The idea being to keep your cutting edge under the surface of the previous cut deep enough to avoid the work hardened surface. 4. As has been mentioned use a good lube, ideally something to match the materials. Almost anything is better than nothing. 5. Drill twice. That is once to male a pilot hole. Atleast once more to bring the hole to size. 6. If you are lucky enough to have a pilot hole, but unlucky in work hardening the hole before you are through; turn the part over and drill from the other side. Often you can drill right through the hard area this way. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On May 6, 2009, at 10:44 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > I allways find that the shoulders are wearing off all the time I'm > not sure whether it's cause i'm going to fast or whether stainless > is just damn hard to drill. The rest of the cutting edge is fine > just the shoulder chips off. > >> For those who may not know; >> drilling steels (metals) absolutely demands the correct speed in >> surface >> speeds, SFM or surface feet per minute (metres per minute), to work >> well. >> >> Some approximations in mild steel: >> >> Small drills should be run as fast as you can >> 1-3 mm, 1000+ rpm max speed of your drill (2800 rpm on the Hitachi) >> 4-6 mm, 600 rpm, a bit slower (at full speed your drill very >> quickly and >> wear out the drill bit too fast). >> 7-10 mm, 300-500 rpm a primary pilot hole is indicated to drill >> straight, fast, and accurate (also easier) >> 11-13 mm, slowest speed 100-200 rpm, high speed will burn out the >> drill >> bits edge very quickly >> >> For large holes be careful and hold the drill very firmly. >> A sprained or broken wrist is possible, and the breaking bit at 13 mm >> shattering is no joke. Knowing about it, you should be ok. >> >> For Stainless steels, 30-50% slower and use a tapping fluid or >> cutting oil >> Aluminum, about 2-3 x faster (usually as fast as your drills, bits >> and >> experience allow) >> >> Good bits will cut at least 3x faster than poor ones. The >> difference is >> enormous. If it whines, the bit is dull or you are going too fast. If >> chips and curls come out nicely, you are going just right. >> >> >> Paul Wilson wrote: >>> >>> >>> I have done the same although it was an old Makita 9 volt drill. >>> It runs >>> off 12 volt fine, although a little faster. I figured it probably >>> has a 12 >>> volt motor in it. You could also try running an 18 volt drill on >>> 12 volts, >>> of course, but it will run a lot slower. If drilling metal that >>> might be a >>> good thing. Variable speed triggers may screw things up and might >>> need to >>> be by-passed. >>> >>> Cheers, Paul >>> >>> Hunt down a 12 volt drill and you can charge or run it directly >>> off your >>> battery. I have been using one off the battery for a decade or >>> more, no >>> problems. Change the keyless chuck for a real one while you can >>> still get >>> the old one off, before things freeze up. >>> Brent >>> >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20321|20234|2009-05-07 04:29:05|polaris041|Re: Gulf of Mexica|You're a funny guy Ben. Straight for the throat. I assure you my 'assumptions" about you, say nothing about me. I don't need to "eat my words/back down or what ever else you would have me do.You assume I am a Doubting Thomas, who has just sat around my whole 63 years. Often I am impressed with your input and the detail offered. You may have noticed I said "one day just for FUN". So just for fun and our edification how about a chronology of your jobs/experiences and positions. I'm sure it would be of interest to many viewers of this forum. pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 09:12:04PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > Good observation Shane; > > > > I too am bemused by "Ben". The guy must be as old as mathoozalah. > > Why, no - I just turned 47 the other day. However, I didn't spend my > life sitting in one place and gathering dust. Your assumptions about my > age, jobs I've done, etc. speak quite loudly about _you_ far more than > they do about me. > e. That's where I get one of *my* favorite kinds of > amusement: watching Doubting Thomases eating their words. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20322|20295|2009-05-07 06:30:08|sae140|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > I have to work with a lot of stainless at work, without a doubt it is > a pain. The quality of the drill bit is important and knowing how to > implement its use equally important. Below are a few suggestions to > be taken with a grain of salt. > > 1. > Once you start to feed the drill don't stop. Depending on the grade > it will work harden almost instantly if you hesitate. > > 2. > Use relatively slow RPMs to keep the velocity of the cutting edge low. > > 3. > While the spindle is slow don't pussy foot around with feed. You want > a relatively heavy feed. This was explained to me one day as keeping > the fresh part of the helix under the old cut (revolution by > Revolution). The idea being to keep your cutting edge under the > surface of the previous cut deep enough to avoid the work hardened > surface. > > 4. > As has been mentioned use a good lube, ideally something to match the > materials. Almost anything is better than nothing. > > 5. > Drill twice. That is once to male a pilot hole. Atleast once more > to bring the hole to size. > > 6. > If you are lucky enough to have a pilot hole, but unlucky in work > hardening the hole before you are through; turn the part over and > drill from the other side. Often you can drill right through the hard > area this way. > > David A Frantz Dunno about the 'grain of salt' (?) - all the above sounds spot on to me. I'd just add: if you're drilling thick stainless on a pillar drill - after drilling the pilot hole, smudge a dab of grease into the underside of the hole. That will keep the drilling fluid in place so you can drill the big 'un through a bath of fluid. And - if you're drilling stainless at an awkward angle, consider using condensed milk as a lube. It sticks to the drill well, and engineers at Kodak(UK) swear by this method - even if it does sound weird. Although stainless is frequently soft, the trick is to keep air away from the working surface so that hard chromium oxides do not form. I was once stuck in the field on a Sunday with only one 10mm drill which had started to squeal and burn. No shops and no sharpening gear. Out of desperation I fitted a new grinding disk into a small angle grinder, locked the grinder in a Workmate, and carefully used it as a grindstone. Crude procedure, but it worked - rake angle was a tad more than usual, but that bit cut into the 316 like butter. I've decided to stay with that rake angle in future. Colin| 20323|20295|2009-05-07 09:07:51|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|Agree 100%. Very good Colin. The grease trick is superb ! never thought of that. sae140 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , David Frantz > wrote: > > > > I have to work with a lot of stainless at work, without a doubt it is > > a pain. The quality of the drill bit is important and knowing how to > > implement its use equally important. Below are a few suggestions to > > be taken with a grain of salt. > > > > 1. > > Once you start to feed the drill don't stop. Depending on the grade > > it will work harden almost instantly if you hesitate. > > > > 2. > > Use relatively slow RPMs to keep the velocity of the cutting edge low. > > > > 3. > > While the spindle is slow don't pussy foot around with feed. You want > > a relatively heavy feed. This was explained to me one day as keeping > > the fresh part of the helix under the old cut (revolution by > > Revolution). The idea being to keep your cutting edge under the > > surface of the previous cut deep enough to avoid the work hardened > > surface. > > > > 4. > > As has been mentioned use a good lube, ideally something to match the > > materials. Almost anything is better than nothing. > > > > 5. > > Drill twice. That is once to male a pilot hole. Atleast once more > > to bring the hole to size. > > > > 6. > > If you are lucky enough to have a pilot hole, but unlucky in work > > hardening the hole before you are through; turn the part over and > > drill from the other side. Often you can drill right through the hard > > area this way. > > > > David A Frantz > > Dunno about the 'grain of salt' (?) - all the above sounds spot on to me. > > I'd just add: if you're drilling thick stainless on a pillar drill - > after drilling the pilot hole, smudge a dab of grease into the > underside of the hole. That will keep the drilling fluid in place so > you can drill the big 'un through a bath of fluid. > > And - if you're drilling stainless at an awkward angle, consider using > condensed milk as a lube. It sticks to the drill well, and engineers > at Kodak(UK) swear by this method - even if it does sound weird. > Although stainless is frequently soft, the trick is to keep air away > from the working surface so that hard chromium oxides do not form. > > I was once stuck in the field on a Sunday with only one 10mm drill > which had started to squeal and burn. No shops and no sharpening gear. > Out of desperation I fitted a new grinding disk into a small angle > grinder, locked the grinder in a Workmate, and carefully used it as a > grindstone. Crude procedure, but it worked - rake angle was a tad more > than usual, but that bit cut into the 316 like butter. I've decided to > stay with that rake angle in future. > > Colin > > _ > > | 20324|20234|2009-05-07 09:15:22|Ray|Re: Gulf of Mexica|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > How 'bout if You, Shane, Ben and everyone else keep personal and political BS off the forum? For either of us to assume that anyone else agrees with or will be swayed by our opinions is self-aggrandizing fantasy. I know what I think, and of course I think I'm right. Others with different experiences/backgrounds will look at me like I've got a third head on my shoulders when I try to explain why. So - regardless of my thoughts on the merits of either position, keep the stupid shit off list, OK? SHANE - you listening? Y'all wanta compare peckers - do it in personal mail exchanges.| 20325|20234|2009-05-07 11:08:23|Knut F Garshol|Re: Gulf of Mexica|I have been waiting for someone to say something along these lines and thanks for doing so. It needed to be said. The flame-throwing quickly loses its entertainment value and becomes boring. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 9:15 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Gulf of Mexica --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > How 'bout if You, Shane, Ben and everyone else keep personal and political BS off the forum? For either of us to assume that anyone else agrees with or will be swayed by our opinions is self-aggrandizing fantasy. I know what I think, and of course I think I'm right. Others with different experiences/backgrounds will look at me like I've got a third head on my shoulders when I try to explain why. So - regardless of my thoughts on the merits of either position, keep the stupid shit off list, OK? SHANE - you listening? Y'all wanta compare peckers - do it in personal mail exchanges. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20326|20234|2009-05-07 11:52:04|SHANE ROTHWELL|Gulf of Mexica|Gulf of Mexica Attn: THE “Editor-in-Chief” Dear Sir, OOOOOOh, such a stunning rebuke! Terrifying really. I will never sleep again for fear of reprisal………ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Lets see…., you call a man on all the complete bullshit he has come up with (how do YOU spell fraud?), call him a lying, thieving, cowardly, genocide for profit supporting, ignorant son of a bitch, then tell him to blow you His reaction? Oh……, a spelling correction and he calls you a Troll. Completely ignoring any real content and conveniently changes the subject (and then only when prompted by others), to his brilliant illustrious career. And the ultimate reprizal.. he tells you that “[email address permanently banned from my mailbox]”(oh the pain! Oh the pain!) Then, of course, reminds you, yet again, of his absolute superiority. I’m wondering if this reminds anyone else of Fox “news? As Pol mentioned…. “So just for fun and our edification how about a chronology of your jobs/experiences and positions.” Good Ideal Pol. I wonder who else might be interested in this potential earth shattering event? Please Mr. “Editor-in-Chief” PLEASE tell us again how wonderful you are and how blessed we are by your presence. PLEASE. Perhaps it will convince others to call a spade a spade & we can get rid of this bloody wanker & all the bullshit associated with it. I guess all that is left is to reiterate, Ben, BLOW ME. Shane Rothwell Posted by: "Ben Okopnik" ben@... pectus_roboreus1 Wed May 6, 2009 6:45 pm (PDT) On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 11:17:52AM -0700, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Attn: THE “Editor-in-Chiefâ€� > > Dear Sir, > > In your last posting, in the last line, you asked if I had anything to add. I do. [snip of another ignorant, ALL-CAPS-SPELLING loudmouth ranting about the US military, Philippines, Martian venereal diseases, or whatever] *Yawn* Go away, troll. [email address permanently banned from my mailbox] -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 11:17:52AM -0700, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: Attn: THE “Editor-in-Chief” Dear Sir, In your last posting, in the last line, you asked if I had anything to add. I do. Isn’t it absolutely amazing what the combination of force of will, the loudest voice and the seemingly standardized practice, (as perfected by Fox “news”) of yelling an opponent down when logic entirely escapes them, these highly esteemed (obviously by some) traits, combined with wishful thinking, lack of observation or any firsthand experience whatsoever, or any concerted thought, are capable of producing? Could this be possible due to ones environment? If one were raised in an environment where they were taught from birth that they were vastly superior to ALL else, (there’s your fucking comma “mate”) Period. Where, if the bearing of a club over the head of the owner of ANYTHING you want does not entirely submit, “standard” practice is to blow his fucking brains out & take the bloody lot as initially planned anyway. Yes, genocide for personal gain. Works today just as it did in the Philippines in 1896 and in each and every “engagement” since. Tends to remind all exactly who is in charge and generate submission doesn’t it? Respect, however, is earned. No exceptions. Period. I would tend to agree with your statement that “Dogmatic statements are rarely true”, yet you trust the american military who runs the GPS system and tell me that the ONLY reason that I am safe is due to their “protection”. I have only one answer to that idiocy. Blow me. I will leave the last word to you, with a reiteration of one of your own statements which is one of the only other things you have ever said that I agree with “Any overbearingly authoritative generality is automatically going to be wrong.” Shane Rothwell __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca | 20327|20234|2009-05-07 13:06:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gulf of Mexica|On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 08:28:55AM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > You're a funny guy Ben. Straight for the throat. It's interesting to hear that you're taking it that way: I think that I've responded in a fairly mild fashion, but you see straight razors and 13-turn lanyard knots. [shrug] You followed up to an inflammatory post expressing at least some degree of agreement with the flamer, and you appear to be aggrieved that I didn't respond with flowers and champagne. I think that's at least a little unreasonable. > I assure you my 'assumptions" about you, say nothing about me. > I don't need to "eat my words/back down or what ever else you would > have me do.You assume I am a Doubting Thomas, who has just sat around > my whole 63 years. Nope. But your surprise/disbelief at my mention of some (a short sub-list, at that) of the things I've done in my life is certainly indicative. > Often I am impressed with your input and the detail offered. > > You may have noticed I said "one day just for FUN". > > So just for fun and our edification how about a chronology of your jobs/experiences and positions. > > I'm sure it would be of interest to many viewers of this forum. Oh, dear. Well, it's not an unfair request, but I don't have anything like a writeup of that (at one point, in frustration at this type of questions, I started to write it; I only got to age 20, and then dropped it. I don't know that I can even find that file anymore.) It would take me quite a while, and it would be a hell of an autobiography. The closest thing I've got is a resume that I send to my clients, but that's only a narrow slice, mostly about my career in computers. Since I'm mostly doing high-end technical instruction these days, I wouldn't put down (for example) the Improvised Munitions training course that I went through while I was in Military Intelligence, or the customs clearance/warehousing stuff I did for an Israeli importer when I was 15 and living on my own, or the auto parts business that I owned and ran for 16 months. Even while I was in the Army, I shifted jobs more than anyone else I knew: basic/MOS training as an infantryman, reclassified (due to their inability to give me an overseas assignment) as a turbine engine mechanic, peripherally classified as a Russian linguist, assigned to an Air Defense Artillery (HAWK) unit, temp assignment to a MASH unit, reassigned to a Military Intelligence OPFOR unit... my whole life has been like that. All I can say is, I get bored easily. :) Once I've learned how to do a job - learned it really well, that is - is the most howlingly-awful, grinding thing I can imagine. That's one of the reasons I love sailing; you never learn it all, and there's always something interesting around the corner. Right now, for example, I'm trying to learn about stevedoring/loadmaster skills: I'm as good at knots as anyone I know, but some of the practical applications - e.g., lashing odd shapes, figuring out the best way to lead and hoist a huge load, etc. - are a bit of a weak spot for me. So, while I'm cruising, and teaching (I'm off to Sacramento this coming week), I'm also trying to learn what I can wherever I can. I might run down to the Sac docks and see if I can talk to some of the longshoremen or whatever. Way I figure it is, the day I stop learning, you might as well bury me. The body may still be moving, but the brain is dead or been stolen stolen by aliens. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20328|20295|2009-05-07 13:38:32|Ben Okopnik|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 10:29:57AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > > > I have to work with a lot of stainless at work, without a doubt it is > > a pain. The quality of the drill bit is important and knowing how to > > implement its use equally important. Below are a few suggestions to > > be taken with a grain of salt. > > > > 1. > > Once you start to feed the drill don't stop. Depending on the grade > > it will work harden almost instantly if you hesitate. > > > > 2. > > Use relatively slow RPMs to keep the velocity of the cutting edge low. > > > > 3. > > While the spindle is slow don't pussy foot around with feed. You want > > a relatively heavy feed. This was explained to me one day as keeping > > the fresh part of the helix under the old cut (revolution by > > Revolution). The idea being to keep your cutting edge under the > > surface of the previous cut deep enough to avoid the work hardened > > surface. > > > > 4. > > As has been mentioned use a good lube, ideally something to match the > > materials. Almost anything is better than nothing. > > > > 5. > > Drill twice. That is once to male a pilot hole. Atleast once more > > to bring the hole to size. > > > > 6. > > If you are lucky enough to have a pilot hole, but unlucky in work > > hardening the hole before you are through; turn the part over and > > drill from the other side. Often you can drill right through the hard > > area this way. > > > > David A Frantz > > > Dunno about the 'grain of salt' (?) - all the above sounds spot on to me. Ditto here - and it's all really good advice if you've never had to struggle with the stuff before. > I'd just add: if you're drilling thick stainless on a pillar drill - > after drilling the pilot hole, smudge a dab of grease into the > underside of the hole. That will keep the drilling fluid in place so > you can drill the big 'un through a bath of fluid. Nice! > And - if you're drilling stainless at an awkward angle, consider using > condensed milk as a lube. It sticks to the drill well, and engineers > at Kodak(UK) swear by this method - even if it does sound weird. > Although stainless is frequently soft, the trick is to keep air away > from the working surface so that hard chromium oxides do not form. Never heard of that one, but I'll keep it in my mental toolbox... > I was once stuck in the field on a Sunday with only one 10mm drill > which had started to squeal and burn. No shops and no sharpening gear. > Out of desperation I fitted a new grinding disk into a small angle > grinder, locked the grinder in a Workmate, and carefully used it as a > grindstone. Crude procedure, but it worked - rake angle was a tad more > than usual, but that bit cut into the 316 like butter. I've decided to > stay with that rake angle in future. I wonder if this is similar to what Ken Hyde showed me. The difference was literally between struggling and "cutting through butter". -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20329|20295|2009-05-07 14:55:59|brentswain38|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|I've found that, when drilling stainless, the first hint of it starting to squeal is time to take it out and sharpen it. Other wise the squeal will quickly take the temper out. If it is not cutting cleanly, it is time to resharpen. Keep trying to cut when it is squealing and it will quickly cook the drill bit. Lots of pressure will keep it cutting cleanly. In an awkward position on a boat, it is easy to find a place to put a chain hook and put a loop of chain over a 2X4, then use the 2X4 as a drill press over the drill. This gives far more power and control than trying to push a drill by direct hand pressure. A little innovation goes a long way . A friend had his drillprees outside. He made a small hole in the bottom of a 5 gallon plastic bucket and filled the bucket with water, then pointed the stream of water at the tip of his drill bit, when drilling stainless. It had zero chance of heating up, and drilled cleanly, without losing a bit. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I allways find that the shoulders are wearing off all the time I'm not sure whether it's cause i'm going to fast or whether stainless is just damn hard to drill. The rest of the cutting edge is fine just the shoulder chips off. > > > For those who may not know; > > drilling steels (metals) absolutely demands the correct speed in surface > > speeds, SFM or surface feet per minute (metres per minute), to work well. > > > > Some approximations in mild steel: > > > > Small drills should be run as fast as you can > > 1-3 mm, 1000+ rpm max speed of your drill (2800 rpm on the Hitachi) > > 4-6 mm, 600 rpm, a bit slower (at full speed your drill very quickly and > > wear out the drill bit too fast). > > 7-10 mm, 300-500 rpm a primary pilot hole is indicated to drill > > straight, fast, and accurate (also easier) > > 11-13 mm, slowest speed 100-200 rpm, high speed will burn out the drill > > bits edge very quickly > > > > For large holes be careful and hold the drill very firmly. > > A sprained or broken wrist is possible, and the breaking bit at 13 mm > > shattering is no joke. Knowing about it, you should be ok. > > > > For Stainless steels, 30-50% slower and use a tapping fluid or cutting oil > > Aluminum, about 2-3 x faster (usually as fast as your drills, bits and > > experience allow) > > > > Good bits will cut at least 3x faster than poor ones. The difference is > > enormous. If it whines, the bit is dull or you are going too fast. If > > chips and curls come out nicely, you are going just right. > > > > > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > > I have done the same although it was an old Makita 9 volt drill. It runs > > > off 12 volt fine, although a little faster. I figured it probably has a 12 > > > volt motor in it. You could also try running an 18 volt drill on 12 volts, > > > of course, but it will run a lot slower. If drilling metal that might be a > > > good thing. Variable speed triggers may screw things up and might need to > > > be by-passed. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > Hunt down a 12 volt drill and you can charge or run it directly off your > > > battery. I have been using one off the battery for a decade or more, no > > > problems. Change the keyless chuck for a real one while you can still get > > > the old one off, before things freeze up. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > | 20330|20318|2009-05-07 15:06:21|brentswain38|Re: Painting Costs|For USanians, the US military sheds a lot of surplus military epoxy which gets sold quite cheap. Generally epoxy is epoxy, they all go well over each other as long as you recoat soon enough.It's only the total thickness that counts. There is a place south of Port Townsend Washington that sells a lot of it cheap, including some great antifouling.There is anothe rplace in Richmond CA. Coopers surplus in Courtenay had a pile of Canadian Navy surplus antifouling a few years back for $35 for a 2 1/2 gallon pail. They said the Navy ordered it, and by the time it came, the ship it was for was out at sea, so they sold it cheap. Wish I had stocked up. If we have to buy those overgrown kids new toys all the time , then we may as well get whatever benifits we can. Ganger Enterprises in Surrey BC had a warehouse full of all kinds of paint last time I was there several years ago. You'd just have to call the manufacturer to find out the details of what you bought. Recycling centres give paint away for free, . Unfortunately it is mostly latex( good for covering foam) but one occasionally gets oil based , and possibly others. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Thought I would share some of the info re the costs for supplies to paint our 36's deck, cabin, pilothouse, cockpit, basically all exterior except hull. > > Box of sandpaper from Lee Valley $10.00 > 10 x $5.00 for sanding disks $50.00 > 2 part high build epoxy primer $133.00 > Add-a-lume powder $35.00 > Base coat 2 part gray epoxy $40.40 > Zolatone Silver Gray finish coat $111.00 > Endura 2 part polyurethane UV clearcoat $125.00 > 1 gallon of cleaner reducer $36.00 > > plus taxes. > > Odds and sods ie masking tape, masks, gloves, etc about a hundred bucks. > > Should be good for ten years. I hope. > > The hull will be next. > 6 coats of 2 part epoxy below the w/l, 4 above with a uv clearcoat. > Haven't bought the hull paint yet. > | 20331|20295|2009-05-07 16:02:34|David Frantz|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 10:29:57AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: >> >>> I have to work with a lot of stainless at work, without a doubt it is >>> a pain. The quality of the drill bit is important and knowing how to >>> implement its use equally important. Below are a few suggestions to >>> be taken with a grain of salt. >>> >>> 1. >>> Once you start to feed the drill don't stop. Depending on the grade >>> it will work harden almost instantly if you hesitate. >>> >>> 2. >>> Use relatively slow RPMs to keep the velocity of the cutting edge low. >>> >>> 3. >>> While the spindle is slow don't pussy foot around with feed. You want >>> a relatively heavy feed. This was explained to me one day as keeping >>> the fresh part of the helix under the old cut (revolution by >>> Revolution). The idea being to keep your cutting edge under the >>> surface of the previous cut deep enough to avoid the work hardened >>> surface. >>> >>> 4. >>> As has been mentioned use a good lube, ideally something to match the >>> materials. Almost anything is better than nothing. >>> >>> 5. >>> Drill twice. That is once to male a pilot hole. Atleast once more >>> to bring the hole to size. >>> >>> 6. >>> If you are lucky enough to have a pilot hole, but unlucky in work >>> hardening the hole before you are through; turn the part over and >>> drill from the other side. Often you can drill right through the hard >>> area this way. >>> >>> David A Frantz >>> >> Dunno about the 'grain of salt' (?) - all the above sounds spot on to me. >> > > Ditto here - and it's all really good advice if you've never had to > struggle with the stuff before. > With stainless I've found that even if you do everything the same every time once in a while the stainless wins. Milling stainless can be a real pain because those chips come off real hard leading to chipped tools. > > >> I'd just add: if you're drilling thick stainless on a pillar drill - >> after drilling the pilot hole, smudge a dab of grease into the >> underside of the hole. That will keep the drilling fluid in place so >> you can drill the big 'un through a bath of fluid. >> > > Nice! > > >> And - if you're drilling stainless at an awkward angle, consider using >> condensed milk as a lube. It sticks to the drill well, and engineers >> at Kodak(UK) swear by this method - even if it does sound weird. >> Although stainless is frequently soft, the trick is to keep air away >> from the working surface so that hard chromium oxides do not form. >> > > Never heard of that one, but I'll keep it in my mental toolbox... > One thing I've never tried for lubrication is Crisco. I knew a metal fabricator once that swore on it for field work. In this case, to my understanding, his use was on structural steel not stainless but the idea remains that it was a cheap solid lubricant that didn't run. This was not building fabrication but rather large structures for industry. More so he used this for power tapping steel with large drill motors. How this would work on stainless I don't know. Frankly I've yet to find the urge to do this on any of the little stuff I work on. > >> I was once stuck in the field on a Sunday with only one 10mm drill >> which had started to squeal and burn. No shops and no sharpening gear. >> Out of desperation I fitted a new grinding disk into a small angle >> grinder, locked the grinder in a Workmate, and carefully used it as a >> grindstone. Crude procedure, but it worked - rake angle was a tad more >> than usual, but that bit cut into the 316 like butter. I've decided to >> stay with that rake angle in future. >> > > I wonder if this is similar to what Ken Hyde showed me. The difference > was literally between struggling and "cutting through butter". > Speaking of sharpening, I think it was you that mentioned Drill Doctor and I'd like to concur. Even the older models can be coaxed into doing a good job. Notably I've found that it was doing a better job than some of the so called made in the USA drills we where buying. It is pretty bad when you have to resharpen a drill fresh from the factory package. I do wonder though if some manufactures assume you will regrind for your specific usage or maybe it is just quality control going out the window. > > | 20332|20332|2009-05-07 18:34:34|denis buggy|Re: drills and drilling, and other topics|i have been away and have missed out on all the fun and when i look at all the posts i see a pattern which has familiar cycles , a number of interesting posts which show the passion with which some people have for this group and i believe despite all that is said you would miss each other . the contribution of DAVID FRANZ AND THE BOILER FLUE in the middle of all of this is so generous and of such high quality as posts like these keep this group alive and able to weather even the likes of me and my interest in steel multihulls which un intentionally provoked a row even though i had said the matter was discussed in previous posts in order to avoid contention . i would agree with much that Brent and Ben had to say on the topic as any boat has features which are good and also in certain circumstances are dangerous . most boats sink and it took two large volumes to list only some of the sailing ships lost in the 18th and19 th century in my small country of Ireland some of them on their maiden voyage all crewed by experienced professionals and built by master shipwrights from all European countries . since this is a boatbuilding forum i will end this thread with your permission by asking you all not to debate the merits of one over another as i accept each design can be superior to another sometimes . i would also ask you to be patient with me as i relate how i hope to build this steel boat and why i am doing it as i do , many of you will think me mad however i would be grateful for any comment as there are people in this group who are generous and able with their advice , i set out some years ago with a belief that i knew enough to have a go at building a steel boat , following six months of studying the task i almost gave up when the enormity of what i did not know emerged . some years later i am only now coming to grips with the design which i am construction in .6mm galv steel to keep to 1 tenth scale i am simply pop riveting the lot together and sealing the edges with silicone as i merely wish to distribute scrap steel in its chosen area to scale the distribution of weight and i have got the assistance of a member of Strathclyde university marine engineering dept to help me tank test the planned boat, the sail plan is about to be tested by adding two keel sections on either side of my Malibu sit on top canoe using aluminium ladder section as i wish to test 4 yes i said 4 unstayed masts with independent mechanism for taking advantage of low airs and being able to unload two while using two full sails in a gale on one side of the trimaran as it would require the sails to now lift the centre and the outer hull from the water and this now is my fulcrum it floats and it be used as the main sailing hull if the wind changes as the centre main hull would no masts fitted . some high tech monohulls use a tilting bulb keel to allow more sail and therefore more speed by sending the lead out on a limb on the wind side . i am proposing to use sails out on a limb out on a hull which should make e it unlikely to capsize . what do you all think . the idea is not mine and has been used by schoinning of Australia . regards Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: David Frantz __,_i ._, have been away __ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20333|20318|2009-05-08 18:34:17|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: Painting Costs|Careful here with the discount paints! We bought 2 gallons of TRILUX at a boaters exchange store, and unfortunatly we found that it was really red paint of unknown brand and NOT antifouling. With the regular price at over $200 there is some temptation for counterfitting.... an empty can, a decently printed facscimile of the label and some cheap paint? I know Harvey had trouble with the bottom on his boat and wonder if he used the same paint or the Coopers paint? We had 6 inch growth, weeds and lots of shells too, an unbelievable mess that filled 2 45 gallon drums at the hard in the Comox Marina, all from a 37 footer. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20334|20295|2009-05-08 20:55:33|Gary Prebble|Re: Inverter?|Here is what Craftsman had to say Dear Mr. Prebble Thank you for contacting sears.com. We appreciate the opportunity to assist you concerning your inquiry. You should be able to use the inverter on your drill charger, however, there is a chance it could limit the life of the charger, but it should be alright. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us again. Look for Great Ideas throughout the store and find Sears exclusive innovations from great brands like Sony, Kenmore, NordicTrack, Craftsman and Reebok. Shop www.sears.com now to pick up great products for the season. Eli M. Sears Customer Care webcenter@... 1-800-349-4358 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > I recently bought a used cordless drill...mastercraft 19.2 volts. I plugged in the batter re-charge into my inverter. It worked for about 3 minutes...buzzing sound and then went out. It would not work in a regular house plug afterward. Could the inverter have blown the charger?... > > Thanks... > | 20335|20295|2009-05-08 22:35:54|Ben Okopnik|Re: Inverter?|On Sat, May 09, 2009 at 12:55:14AM -0000, Gary Prebble wrote: > Here is what Craftsman had to say > > Dear Mr. Prebble > > Thank you for contacting sears.com. > > We appreciate the opportunity to assist you concerning your inquiry. > You should be able to use the inverter on your drill charger, however, > there is a chance it could limit the life of the charger, but it should > be alright. Nice job of CYA on their part, wouldn't you say? :) In reality, inverters - unless you have a "vibrator" type from the 1950s or so - should run any sort of equipment just fine, and without any harm, modified sine or otherwise; the only thing I could possibly think of that wouldn't is an oscilloscope or a spectrum analyzer that relies on having a sine wave for a reference (you wouldn't hurt it - it just might not sync, depending on how touchy it was.) Over the years, I've had everything on board from an amazing little 600W portable jobbie that would run my vaccuum cleaner (which takes about 750W to run, and about twice that to start!) to my current 3kW gadget from Target, and I've never had anything blow out - except maybe the inverters themselves, which is why I got this way-over-capacity gadget that I use now. Here's a brief list of what I run off my inverter these days - not all at once, but ranging from "almost constantly" to "once in a while": 3 big Honeywell 120VAC fans HP printer/scanner/fax Laptops External 500GB disk drive Sangean shortwave radio Appliance chargers: 2 cell phones Palm Pilot Olympus digital camera Battery chargers (recently replaced with 12V versions): Ridgid 24V PowerMax Ridgid mini-drill batteries AA/AAA battery charger 2 Chicago Electric hand-held grinders Halogen work lights 1500W heat gun 1/2" hammer drill Jigsaw Singer sewing machine Soldering iron I'm sure I've forgotten a number of things; this is just off the top of my head. All of these work fine, and keep on working. I have, by the way, owned a Sears' rechargeable drill while living on the boat (got rid of it a month or two after I bought it; didn't like the quality.) It worked fine too. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20336|20318|2009-05-09 15:16:10|brentswain38|Re: Painting Costs|I believe Karl used the Coopers paint, with excellent results. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ian and Jean Campbell" wrote: > > Careful here with the discount paints! > > We bought 2 gallons of TRILUX at a boaters exchange store, and unfortunatly we found that it was really red paint of unknown brand and NOT antifouling. > > With the regular price at over $200 there is some temptation for counterfitting.... an empty can, a decently printed facscimile of the label and some cheap paint? > > I know Harvey had trouble with the bottom on his boat and wonder if he used the same paint or the Coopers paint? > > We had 6 inch growth, weeds and lots of shells too, an unbelievable mess that filled 2 45 gallon drums at the hard in the Comox Marina, all from a 37 footer. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20337|20295|2009-05-09 15:18:35|brentswain38|Re: Inverter?|I once bought a Craftsman angle grinder from Sears. It crapped out in a week. When I took it back for a refund ,they said they had to deduct usage. The following year a guy I was working for had the same experience. I told him to forget about Craftsman or Sears, and buy a real grinder, not a toy. Brent. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Here is what Craftsman had to say > > Dear Mr. Prebble > > Thank you for contacting sears.com. > > We appreciate the opportunity to assist you concerning your inquiry. > You should be able to use the inverter on your drill charger, however, > there is a chance it could limit the life of the charger, but it should > be alright. > > If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us again. > > Look for Great Ideas throughout the store and find Sears exclusive > innovations from great brands like Sony, Kenmore, NordicTrack, Craftsman > and Reebok. > > Shop www.sears.com now to pick up great products for the season. > > Eli M. > Sears Customer Care > webcenter@... > 1-800-349-4358 > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > > > I recently bought a used cordless drill...mastercraft 19.2 volts. I plugged in the batter re-charge into my inverter. It worked for about 3 minutes...buzzing sound and then went out. It would not work in a regular house plug afterward. Could the inverter have blown the charger?... > > > > Thanks... > > > | 20338|20295|2009-05-09 18:48:04|kingsknight4life|Re: Inverter?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I once bought a Craftsman angle grinder from Sears. It crapped out in a week. When I took it back for a refund ,they said they had to deduct usage. The following year a guy I was working for had the same experience. I told him to forget about Craftsman or Sears, and buy a real grinder, not a toy. > Brent. > We've used angle grinders from CDN tire and when the handle broke(was stripped) after 18 months we took it back no problem. Even though I had accidentally laid the grinder (still moving of course :) ) on the cord and damaged it. I've never had a problem with Canadian Tire or Costco either. Maybe I'm just charming or I sick Bev on them . lol Rowland| 20339|20295|2009-05-09 19:28:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: Inverter?|On Sat, May 09, 2009 at 07:18:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I once bought a Craftsman angle grinder from Sears. It crapped out in > a week. When I took it back for a refund ,they said they had to deduct > usage. Sears decided to be jerks about their powered stuff about ten years back; their "no-hassle" return/replacement policy now applies only to their hand tools (and not even all of those, if I recall correctly.) I don't deal with them much anymore - places like Home Depot have a "no questions asked" return policy. As a result, I've probably spent around $10k with them over the years. > The following year a guy I was working for had the same > experience. I told him to forget about Craftsman or Sears, and buy a > real grinder, not a toy. That's one of the reasons I do what I call "split" buying: either I buy top-quality stuff and never have to worry about it again, or I buy low-end stuff that's cheap enough to treat as being disposable. Anything else is way too expensive. I've spent most of my life learning that lesson over and over again; I still make that kind of mistake once in a while, but mostly, I don't waste money like that anymore. I've mentioned a variety of both here - e.g., the Chicago Electric line of Chinese-made tools from Harbor Freight, which actually last an amazingly long time (I bought three of their grinders for $14.97 apiece about three years ago, and still have all three despite cutting and grinding a hell of a lot of steel plus lots of other incidental usage.) I've also talked about stuff like the Drill Doctor, the ClampTite tool, the Mobi-Arc welder, etc. There's a whole lot of satisfaction in watching that "cost per use" figure drop lower and lower as you use these things... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20340|20295|2009-05-09 19:36:42|jfisher@wildblue.net|Re: Inverter?|You do know that craftsman and hd ridgid tools are made by the same company. They also make royobi tools as well. Lowes has the other major mfg vs sears and hd. John Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Ben Okopnik Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 19:23:35 To: Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Inverter? On Sat, May 09, 2009 at 07:18:15PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I once bought a Craftsman angle grinder from Sears. It crapped out in > a week. When I took it back for a refund ,they said they had to deduct > usage. Sears decided to be jerks about their powered stuff about ten years back; their "no-hassle" return/replacement policy now applies only to their hand tools (and not even all of those, if I recall correctly.) I don't deal with them much anymore - places like Home Depot have a "no questions asked" return policy. As a result, I've probably spent around $10k with them over the years. > The following year a guy I was working for had the same > experience. I told him to forget about Craftsman or Sears, and buy a > real grinder, not a toy. That's one of the reasons I do what I call "split" buying: either I buy top-quality stuff and never have to worry about it again, or I buy low-end stuff that's cheap enough to treat as being disposable. Anything else is way too expensive. I've spent most of my life learning that lesson over and over again; I still make that kind of mistake once in a while, but mostly, I don't waste money like that anymore. I've mentioned a variety of both here - e.g., the Chicago Electric line of Chinese-made tools from Harbor Freight, which actually last an amazingly long time (I bought three of their grinders for $14.97 apiece about three years ago, and still have all three despite cutting and grinding a hell of a lot of steel plus lots of other incidental usage.) I've also talked about stuff like the Drill Doctor, the ClampTite tool, the Mobi-Arc welder, etc. There's a whole lot of satisfaction in watching that "cost per use" figure drop lower and lower as you use these things... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20341|20295|2009-05-09 22:20:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: Inverter?|On Sat, May 09, 2009 at 11:35:02PM +0000, jfisher@... wrote: > You do know that craftsman and hd ridgid tools are made by the same > company. They also make royobi tools as well. Lowes has the other > major mfg vs sears and hd. I've just double-checked that, and they're actually different divisions under the Emerson corporate umbrella. Emerson makes tools that then get rebadged with whatever logos (not Ryobi, though - as far as I know, they're just a supplier to lots of different people.) http://professional-power-tool-guide.com/manufacturers/ridgid-power-tool-company/ Saying that they're the same company is sorta true, but sorta misses the point, too: the fact that the profit made by Ridgid now goes into Emerson's pockets (just like the profits from the Craftsman products) instead of the original owners of the Ridge Road Plumbing company does not mean that Ridgid tools are in any way comparable to Craftsman tools. In my experience, most Craftsman power tools are just not worth having - but I own the big Ridgid portable tool kit (drill, circular saw, etc.) and am really satisfied with it. Oh, and they're cheerful when it comes to paying off on their lifetime warranty, too. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20342|20295|2009-05-10 01:59:10|polaris041|Re: Inverter?|I thought "life time waranty", meant just that. When the tool dies, so does the warranty. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: . Oh, and they're cheerful when it comes > to paying off on their lifetime warranty, too. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20343|20343|2009-05-10 10:00:18|SHANE ROTHWELL|Inverter|Sees most retailers are tightening up their return policy. But not Princess Auto. The only way in which they have tightenend up their policies is that I seem to have trouble getting them to extend sale prices past a couple of months after the end of the sale. No, their tools are not the top of the line, but, for sake of argument, took back my 2 year old chain saw with no reciept, my word was good enough, & they gave me abotu 80% of the cost of it, they called it a warrantee return. I called it superb! so I immidiately bought 2 identical ones to replace it. Their 'no sale is complete until your satisfied' tag line that they plaster all over their product is exactly that & they stand behind it. __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/| 20344|20344|2009-05-10 14:06:33|origamidesign|Yasmina Designs House|Yasmina Designs House I Built Website for video of Origami Page- easy paper folding crafts for children and upload it at http://origami.yasmina-eg.com and here other services that I Offer in yasmina website Group such as: ( a 36 giga website templete On 9 DVD - web designs- hosting - free Template - paid template - Free hosting - Paid Hosting - Proxy - Video Clip Music - Learning Photoshop - football sport - English Premier League Goal) http://www.yasmina-eg.com/htmyas/links.htm Remember to tell me about your opnion of this websites, Cheers, Hany www.yasmina-eg.com| 20345|20345|2009-05-10 19:14:13|svfrolic|Swain 31 on ebay|Maybe somebody is interested, I just found her on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1995-Brent-Swain-31-Steel-Sloop_W0QQitemZ150343290997QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSailboats?hash=item2301289075&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308| 20346|20345|2009-05-10 21:32:22|martin demers|Re: Swain 31 on ebay|It looklikes this boat will sell for a good price!!! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svfrolic@... Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 23:14:03 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Swain 31 on ebay Maybe somebody is interested, I just found her on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1995-Brent-Swain-31-Steel-Sloop_W0QQitemZ150343290997QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSailboats?hash=item2301289075&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308 _________________________________________________________________ Avec Windows Live, vous gardez le contact avec tous vos amis au même endroit. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660830 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20347|20345|2009-05-10 21:50:22|jfisher|Re: Swain 31 on ebay|I have toured that boat in SF when they were there. Nice boat. Well worth the $$ if you want a 31. John _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of martin demers Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 9:32 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Swain 31 on ebay It looklikes this boat will sell for a good price!!! To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com From: svfrolic@yahoo. com Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 23:14:03 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Swain 31 on ebay Maybe somebody is interested, I just found her on ebay: http://cgi.ebay com/ebaymotors/1995-Brent-Swain-31-Steel-Sloop_W0QQitemZ150343290997QQcmdZVi ewItemQQptZSailboats?hash=item2301289075&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72% 3A317%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308 __________________________________________________________ Avec Windows Live, vous gardez le contact avec tous vos amis au même endroit. http://go.microsoft .com/?linkid=9660830 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20348|20345|2009-05-11 07:28:04|martin demers|Re: Swain 31 on ebay|It finally sold for $27,000.00 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: svfrolic@... Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 23:14:03 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Swain 31 on ebay Maybe somebody is interested, I just found her on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1995-Brent-Swain-31-Steel-Sloop_W0QQitemZ150343290997QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSailboats?hash=item2301289075&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308 _________________________________________________________________ Découvrez toute l'actualité de vos amis au même endroit. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660831 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20349|20345|2009-05-11 10:28:16|audeojude|Re: Swain 31 on ebay|This boat went for 27,100 US dollars after 120+ bids.| 20350|20295|2009-05-11 15:01:14|brentswain38|Re: Inverter?|Things may have changed at Canadian tire recently with their warrantee. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I once bought a Craftsman angle grinder from Sears. It crapped out in a week. When I took it back for a refund ,they said they had to deduct usage. The following year a guy I was working for had the same experience. I told him to forget about Craftsman or Sears, and buy a real grinder, not a toy. > > Brent. > > > We've used angle grinders from CDN tire and when the handle broke(was stripped) after 18 months we took it back no problem. Even though I had accidentally laid the grinder (still moving of course :) ) on the cord and damaged it. I've never had a problem with Canadian Tire or Costco either. Maybe I'm just charming or I sick Bev on them . lol > Rowland > | 20351|20351|2009-05-12 10:44:55|andyairey|DC Motors Generators?|Hi All In the last issue of the DBA (used to be Dutch Barge Association) newsletter there was an article by a guy who had remotorised his barge by chucking out a 5litre diesel and installing 4 10kw pancake DC motors instead.Batteries were charged either from shore or from a 13kw generator,which I assume would be on a good bit of the time, particularly when maximum power was needed when it would augment the battery.The rig was pretty expensive - about £23k from memory - but he did give some power consumption figures.As usual with a displacement hull - 50ft long in this case - they just went to demonstrate that piling in the power doesn't increase the speed all that much,but the interesting bit was that you could get about 4knots with under 5hp and this is the sort of speed limit you are stuck with on a lot of inland waterways.However he thought that it was turning out more economical than a straight diesel - particularly if you can get your batteries charged up at a marina.My thought was that it would be better to have 2 of these motors,one of which could be a backup/run as a generator,and keep a medium sized diesel in reserve for when you need the extra power for punching up a river or against a tide.Otherwise use a low powered and quiet electrical rig - unless you have a sailing barge and the wind is right.Any thoughts? cheers Andy Airey| 20352|20351|2009-05-12 11:40:47|David Frantz|Re: DC Motors Generators?|Speaking as a currently boatless industrial electrical tech I'd suggest that you install a generator large enough to power a motor large enough to power you through the worst conditions expected. So if you need say 30hp at the screw shaft under worst conditions then spec a generator suitable for that plus additional potential loads. That would be a rather large DC motor and likely not very efficent at slower speeds. At these slower speeds / power demands smaller motors and screws might make more sense. The other reality is that there is a lot of focus these days on AC technology. Here it might be possible to get buy with a single motor drive. I think the important thing is that if the boat is to go off shore then you need continous duty. This a generator must be sized to run that screw motor contiously. Of course a barge is a totally different issue which brings us back to that phrase "it depends". What one would be comfortable with duty cycle wise would make another nervous. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On May 12, 2009, at 10:44 AM, andyairey wrote: > Hi All > > In the last issue of the DBA (used to be Dutch Barge Association) > newsletter there was an article by a guy who had remotorised his > barge by chucking out a 5litre diesel and installing 4 10kw pancake > DC motors instead.Batteries were charged either from shore or from a > 13kw generator,which I assume would be on a good bit of the time, > particularly when maximum power was needed when it would augment the > battery.The rig was pretty expensive - about £23k from memory - but > he did give some power consumption figures.As usual with a displacem > ent hull - 50ft long in this case - they just went to demonstrate th > at piling in the power doesn't increase the speed all that much,but > the interesting bit was that you could get about 4knots with under 5 > hp and this is the sort of speed limit you are stuck with on a lot o > f inland waterways.However he thought that it was turning out more e > conomical than a straight diesel - particularly if you can get your > batteries charged up at a marina.My thought was that it would be bet > ter to have 2 of these motors,one of which could be a backup/run as > a generator,and keep a medium sized diesel in reserve for when you n > eed the extra power for punching up a river or against a tide.Otherw > ise use a low powered and quiet electrical rig - unless you have a s > ailing barge and the wind is right.Any thoughts? > cheers > Andy Airey > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20353|20351|2009-05-12 17:23:24|Paul Wilson|Re: DC Motors Generators?|I don’t want to be too negative but these stories are always too good to be true. I think his figures on being economical don’t take into account the initial purchase cost of all the equipment. You can buy many years of fuel for the extra cost of installing most of these systems. David is right about needing a high duty cycle system. I could probably move a 50 foot sailboat if there was no wind at close to 4 knots with a 2 or 3 hp outboard. With any kind of a head wind, not a chance. A 50 foot canal barge is long and skinny and very easily driven at 4 knots. A 13 kw generator is only about 17 hp not counting any deficiencies, which could be large. Even running all the time, the generator would never give enough power for motoring into a headwind on a 50 foot boat or even a 36 foot boat. The generator would only supplement the batteries for so long before the voltage dropped. My guess is the guy with the barge spends a lot of time doing very short trips. The efficient electric drive systems are usually quite special: high voltage DC or AC systems with high voltage generators, special controllers and high voltage battery banks. For instance, The Etek pancake motors which are now quite popular are 72 volt DC. You can buy components yourself but prices are high. There are many hobbyists experimenting, and it has driven demand. Finally, the weight and space factor of these systems can’t be ignored for a sailboat. So far, IMHO, it just doesn’t add up. There has been lots of discussion on this before, so if you want more details have a look at the old postings. There are also a lot of other long discussions on the boatdesign.net forums which are very good. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20354|20354|2009-05-13 16:49:27|ANDREW AIREY|(no subject)|I don't think that he's taken her out to sea as yet,but the barge was converted in Goole on the Ouse,which is strongly tidal.The Ouse joins up with the Trent to form the Humber estuary and the usual procedure on going from one river to the other is to drop down to Trent Falls on the ebb,moor up until the tide turns,and go up the other river on the flood.I did it once on a 70ft Narrowboat(7ft beam).We dropped down to Trent Falls on tickover,but then had to use 3/4 throttle to get across the Humber to tie up - only making slow progress at that because we weren't at the bottom of the ebb - and then up to Goole on the flood,again on not much more than tickover.The boat normally operates on the River Don,which is partly canalised,probably mostly at less than 1/4 throttle(10hp).However,standing over a diesel engine for long periods even at a relatively low power output is not particularly pleasant,hence the idea of electric drive with a low power and silenced generator/battery for still/slow water conditions,with a relatively high powered diesel as backup for when you really need it.I know that most of Brents boats are likely to be seagoing but there is always the Rover36.The thought was that one could buy a cheapish electric forktruck,use it to build the boat,and then cannibalise it for the battery,thereby adding a ton or so of ballast - probably not needed on the smaller Swains but useful on a barge cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 20355|20295|2009-05-14 05:20:59|peter_d_wiley|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've never seen a Jacobs keyless chuck work well with steel for very long, nor heard of anyone who has had one work well for very long. None of mine has. Perhaps you should buy better chucks. I currently have 6 ranging from genuine German Albrecht ones with a locking ring to Chinese made clones that'll take a 16mm drill shank. I use the big one in the tailstock of a Monarch CY lathe. It has a 7.5 HP 3 phase motor driving it and if the drill chuck wasn't up to it, it would no longer exist. I have a genuine ball bearing Jacobs keyed industrial chuck that never gets used any more. Another Albrecht keyless chuck with locking ring is on my AEG 750 watt geared hand drill. I've used it to hammer-drill 13mm holes through 150mm of reinforced concrete, time after time, for the last 15 years, and it's still going strong. This is far more severe on the chuck than drilling steel. All industrial DeWalt battery drills come with keyless chucks and they work fine for steel. My opinion FWIW, and I had the budget to buy anything I wanted. PDW| 20356|20356|2009-05-14 13:28:01|Gary Prebble|Victoria BC anchorage|Headin' down island to Victoria BC and I know there is no anchoring in the main harbour. Anyone know of any anchorages down that way... Sydney is too far but I did hear that Oak Bay might be ok... Thanks... Gary| 20357|20356|2009-05-14 14:09:07|brentswain38|Re: Victoria BC anchorage|Oak Bay is OK. Maybe a couple of BS 36 footers there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Headin' down island to Victoria BC and I know there is no anchoring in the main harbour. Anyone know of any anchorages down that way... Sydney is too far but I did hear that Oak Bay might be ok... > > Thanks... > Gary > | 20358|20295|2009-05-14 14:11:52|brentswain38|Re: drills and drilling, was : Inverter?|I have had no problem with standard chucks, and they are cheap. I tape the key to the cord so it doesn't get lost. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I've never seen a Jacobs keyless chuck work well with steel for very long, nor heard of anyone who has had one work well for very long. None of mine has. > > Perhaps you should buy better chucks. I currently have 6 ranging from genuine German Albrecht ones with a locking ring to Chinese made clones that'll take a 16mm drill shank. > > I use the big one in the tailstock of a Monarch CY lathe. It has a 7.5 HP 3 phase motor driving it and if the drill chuck wasn't up to it, it would no longer exist. I have a genuine ball bearing Jacobs keyed industrial chuck that never gets used any more. > > Another Albrecht keyless chuck with locking ring is on my AEG 750 watt geared hand drill. I've used it to hammer-drill 13mm holes through 150mm of reinforced concrete, time after time, for the last 15 years, and it's still going strong. This is far more severe on the chuck than drilling steel. > > All industrial DeWalt battery drills come with keyless chucks and they work fine for steel. > > My opinion FWIW, and I had the budget to buy anything I wanted. > > PDW > | 20359|22|2009-05-14 17:41:14|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./#229-INFALFKM.doc Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Imagiro 39. Accommodation Plans. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./%23229-INFALFKM.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20360|20360|2009-05-14 20:54:57|Doug|How much for that prop?|A guy down in New Orleans has LOTS of used props for sail on CraigsList. http://neworleans.craigslist.org/bfs/1144952623.html Something in the range of the 32 x 27 inch prop that I need is selling for about $1200. Is that a fair price and what sort of things do you look at when buying a used prop? Thanks Doug Jackson SubmarineBoat.com| 20361|20360|2009-05-14 21:50:25|brentswain38|Re: How much for that prop?|Balance it on your finger and hit it with a piece of metal . If it has a clear ring it is good metal. A dull thunk means electrolysis. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > A guy down in New Orleans has LOTS of used props for sail on CraigsList. http://neworleans.craigslist.org/bfs/1144952623.html > > Something in the range of the 32 x 27 inch prop that I need is selling for about $1200. Is that a fair price and what sort of things do you look at when buying a used prop? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > SubmarineBoat.com > | 20362|20360|2009-05-14 21:57:35|brentswain38|Re: How much for that prop?|We are awash in used props everywhere. $1200 sounds a bit steep, but I have never bought a 32 inch prop. Boaters exchanges are full of them. Get a prop within 4 inches of the pitch you want, preferably closer. Any more and if you try to repitch a prop more than 4 inches the blade breaks off. Try to get one to match your shaft size, altho a shim works well if you get a super deal on one that is close. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > A guy down in New Orleans has LOTS of used props for sail on CraigsList. http://neworleans.craigslist.org/bfs/1144952623.html > > Something in the range of the 32 x 27 inch prop that I need is selling for about $1200. Is that a fair price and what sort of things do you look at when buying a used prop? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > SubmarineBoat.com > | 20363|20363|2009-05-15 06:22:57|edward_stoneuk|Resin bedded cutlass bearings|I have been reading of resin bedded (i.e. Chockfast) cutlass or stern tube bearings. I was thinking of this as my stern tube is a bit distorted due to my welding. Does anyone have experience of bedding bearings in resin? Regards, Ted| 20364|22|2009-05-16 14:19:46|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./229AFGA123.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : 229 Imagir0 39. Accomodation Plans: 1;2 and 3 You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229AFGA123.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20365|20363|2009-05-16 15:46:35|brentswain38|Re: Resin bedded cutlass bearings|I have sanded down the cutless bearing with the tufnol( micarta ) sleeves to fit a distorted sterntube, no problem. Putting it in resin would make it very hard to remove. I put an oilite bushing in a stainless sleeve on my boat , with a 1/4 inch ss rod flange welded to the outboard end of the sleeve for easy removal , without taking the shaft out. I have changed the bearing in the water with a mask and snorkle , no problem. Just slack off the retaining bolt, take the prop off , tap it out. Then take the works on deck , change the oilite, dive down and put it back in. Lately I have been putting a 7 inch piece of one size larger pipe over the sterntube, welding that to the hull, then to the stern tube, to eliminate distortion, except for a ring around the inside of the stern tube, which is easily ground off. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > I have been reading of resin bedded (i.e. Chockfast) cutlass or stern tube bearings. I was thinking of this as my stern tube is a bit distorted due to my welding. Does anyone have experience of bedding bearings in resin? > > Regards, > Ted > | 20366|20366|2009-05-17 00:54:26|theboilerflue|Watch out that stuff lights up!|So i got the boat sprayfoamed the other day which put's the boat so much closer to the water. Today I was just filling in the gaps with cans of sprayfoam and the guys missed a farely large gap under the 3x3 angle i don't know how i didn't see it when i was checking it over. So I put a bunch of sprayfoam down in the gap and was filling a couple other smaller spots when everthing just burst into flames the 3x3 angle iron, the nearby spots I was filling, the end of the spray straw and me. Scared the shit out of me luckily I walked away from it with singed hair, eyebrows hot goo all over my hands and just a couple of blistery burns on my fore arms. The boat fared about the same after the initial shock I managed to stamp out all the smaller spots on fire and blungened the large burning spot next to the bulkhead with my sweater and kinda downsized it a bit but it wouldn't go out. I had to climb out of the boat jump down grab a bucket of water and climb back in and douse everything down. Holyshit. Black smoke everywhere and water but luckily the foam didn't really catch I still remember thinking that was it back to square one but it really doesn't burn too well. I'm happy for that wow the was a surprise I'll put a couple pictures of the damage up "haidan's boat". Has anyone ever had that happen to them? I still don't know what happened there was not flame or sparks going on maybe from walking around on the foam I built up enough of a static charge too cause a spark I don't know. I can't exactly say what went up first the stuff near the 3x3s or the stuff i was just working on, just suddenly I was on fire my arms and all around me there must have been gas all over man that was scary. It says nothing about spontanious combustion on the can. But i'm pretty sure that I just used too much in one area and it just formed a pocket and compressed the gasses inside. I'm so glad that both me and the boat are allright. I took the rest of the day off and spent some time pulling foam out of my hair and skin, stuff sure is sticky specially after it's been burnt| 20367|20366|2009-05-17 03:58:21|David Frantz|Re: Watch out that stuff lights up!|That is a harrowing tale. Makes one wonder about differnt foams and their resustance to fire. Interestingly I was at the hardware store earlier this week and happened to walk by a whole rack of different spray foams. Some are rated as fire stops for use around penetrations through walls and floors. Unfortunately I believe they are only rated so after installation and curing. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On May 17, 2009, at 12:53 AM, theboilerflue wrote: > So i got the boat sprayfoamed the other day which put's the boat so > much closer to the water. Today I was just filling in the gaps with > cans of sprayfoam and the guys missed a farely large gap under the > 3x3 angle i don't know how i didn't see it when i was checking it > over. So I put a bunch of sprayfoam down in the gap and was filling > a couple other smaller spots when everthing just burst into flames > the 3x3 angle iron, the nearby spots I was filling, the end of the > spray straw and me. Scared the shit out of me luckily I walked away > from it with singed hair, eyebrows hot goo all over my hands and > just a couple of blistery burns on my fore arms. The boat fared > about the same after the initial shock I managed to stamp out all > the smaller spots on fire and blungened the large burning spot next > to the bulkhead with my sweater and kinda downsized it a bit but it > wouldn't go out. I had to climb out of the boat jump down grab a > bucket of water and climb back in and douse everything down. > Holyshit. Black smoke everywhere and water but luckily the foam > didn't really catch I still remember thinking that was it back to > square one but it really doesn't burn too well. I'm happy for that > wow the was a surprise I'll put a couple pictures of the damage up > "haidan's boat". Has anyone ever had that happen to them? I still > don't know what happened there was not flame or sparks going on > maybe from walking around on the foam I built up enough of a static > charge too cause a spark I don't know. I can't exactly say what went > up first the stuff near the 3x3s or the stuff i was just working on, > just suddenly I was on fire my arms and all around me there must > have been gas all over man that was scary. It says nothing about > spontanious combustion on the can. But i'm pretty sure that I just > used too much in one area and it just formed a pocket and compressed > the gasses inside. I'm so glad that both me and the boat are > allright. I took the rest of the day off and spent some time pulling > foam out of my hair and skin, stuff sure is sticky specially after > it's been burnt > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20368|20368|2009-05-17 10:18:08|prairiemaidca|Fire in the Hole|What was the brand of canned foam that caused this problem. I've used these products as well for a couple of places on Prairie Maid with no incidence. I'm just in the process of doing my on board fridge and will require a small amount of canned foam. You've prompted me to add some fire suppression items on board while I'm doing it. Static charge is very prominent when around the sprayed in foam. I've noticed that when shaving small amounts off for interior fitting. It would not suprise me that you generated a charge if you were rubbing against the foam and then got close to any bare metal. Thanks for the very useful heads up. Martin..| 20369|20366|2009-05-17 12:34:21|Knut F Garshol|Re: Watch out that stuff lights up!|A really bad experience and also extremely dangerous. It is hard to tell what actually happened just based on the description, but some general comments may be helpful: - When PU-foam reacts, it is an exothermic process (develops heat) - When spraying foam onto an area partly covered by already reacted foam, the previous foam insulates very well, preventing the normal heat loss - When the new foam reacts and heat is developed, this heat needs to escape to avoid too high maximum temperature - The heat generated during reaction is speeding up the reaction itself and thus raising the peak temperature - If the combination of factors brings the peak temperature above the ignition point, the PU will start burning - I know about incidents from the tunneling industry where too much PU-volume was placed in one go, starting a fire There are PU-foams that are formulated to develop less heat and there are also products that are fire retarded or self-extinguishing. The problem is to find the right quality. Typically, the one-component products in a pressure can are highly reactive to allow foaming based on reaction with air humidity. This is very different to the 2-component spray-foam systems used when foaming the boat originally. Knut [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20370|20366|2009-05-17 14:28:45|edward_stoneuk|Re: Watch out that stuff lights up!|Glad your OK Haidan. That is definitely too much excitment. The propellant in spray cans is often propane and or butane, something which strikes me as odd. That may be a contributing factor. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > So i got the boat sprayfoamed the other day which put's the boat so much closer to the water. Today I was just filling in the gaps with cans of sprayfoam and the guys missed a farely large gap under the 3x3 angle i don't know how i didn't see it when i was checking it over. So I put a bunch of sprayfoam down in the gap and was filling a couple other smaller spots when everthing just burst into flames the 3x3 angle iron, the nearby spots I was filling, the end of the spray straw and me. Scared the shit out of me luckily I walked away from it with singed hair, eyebrows hot goo all over my hands and just a couple of blistery burns on my fore arms. The boat fared about the same after the initial shock I managed to stamp out all the smaller spots on fire and blungened the large burning spot next to the bulkhead with my sweater and kinda downsized it a bit but it wouldn't go out. I had to climb out of the boat jump down grab a bucket of water and climb back in and douse everything down. Holyshit. Black smoke everywhere and water but luckily the foam didn't really catch I still remember thinking that was it back to square one but it really doesn't burn too well. I'm happy for that wow the was a surprise I'll put a couple pictures of the damage up "haidan's boat". Has anyone ever had that happen to them? I still don't know what happened there was not flame or sparks going on maybe from walking around on the foam I built up enough of a static charge too cause a spark I don't know. I can't exactly say what went up first the stuff near the 3x3s or the stuff i was just working on, just suddenly I was on fire my arms and all around me there must have been gas all over man that was scary. It says nothing about spontanious combustion on the can. But i'm pretty sure that I just used too much in one area and it just formed a pocket and compressed the gasses inside. I'm so glad that both me and the boat are allright. I took the rest of the day off and spent some time pulling foam out of my hair and skin, stuff sure is sticky specially after it's been burnt > | 20371|20371|2009-05-17 16:31:18|mickeyolaf|Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|I picked up 7 sheets of Treadmaster non-skid quite cheap, the grey diamond pattern stuff. If u google it some say it is great, some say it is useless and degrades quickly in UV. There is a topcoat u can put on it but who knows if it extends the life. Anybody ever had this stuff on a boat? How successful was it? I would hate to epoxy it down only to have to scrape it off. Just finished painting the decks and house. It took 1.5 gallons of 2 part epoxy primer, 1.5 gallons of Zolatone epoxy primer, 3 gallons of Zolatone finish, and 4 gallons of Endura 2 part UV Clear. Half the clear ends up in the air. I've learned now to buy more than u estimate u'll need. It cost me $30 for a courier when I ran out of clear in Courtenay and had to call Nanaimo for more. Zolatone Silver Grey looks awesome, hides welds, etc. The pattern fools the eye somehow to make the surface look fair. As soon as the final coat of clear was on the house a bird shit on it. Good luck I quess. On to the hull paint.| 20372|20371|2009-05-17 16:56:57|lachica31|Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I picked up 7 sheets of Treadmaster non-skid quite cheap, the grey diamond pattern stuff. > > If u google it some say it is great, some say it is useless and degrades quickly in UV. > Treadmaster in my experience lasts well and UV resistance is not a problem. It is also very non-skid but is uncomfortable to bare feet (at least to those feet that are normally shod with shoes). What is a problem as far as steel boats are concerned is corrosion, I have not yet seen a steel boat that has Treadmaster and is more than a few years old that does not have corrosion under the Treadmaster. I would not use it on a steel boat. Paul Thompson| 20373|20371|2009-05-17 17:07:24|Paul Wilson|Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|"I would hate to epoxy it down only to have to scrape it off." Exactly. I would use Kiwigrip (also known as Don't Slip from Benjamin Moore)...fantastic stuff and probably cheaper than the epoxy you would use to glue down the treadmaster. Search under the old postings for more info. http://www.pachena.com/ Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20374|20371|2009-05-17 17:25:23|lachica31|Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I picked up 7 sheets of Treadmaster non-skid quite cheap, the grey diamond pattern stuff. > > If u google it some say it is great, some say it is useless and degrades quickly in UV. > Treadmaster in my experience lasts well and UV resistance is not a problem. It is also very non-skid but is uncomfortable to bare feet (at least to those feet that are normally shod with shoes). What is a problem as far as steel boats are concerned is corrosion, I have not yet seen a steel boat that has Treadmaster and is more than a few years old that does not have corrosion under the Treadmaster. I would not use it on a steel boat. Paul Thompson| 20375|20371|2009-05-17 17:27:29|lachica31|Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > "I would hate to epoxy it down only to have to scrape it off." > > > > Exactly. I would use Kiwigrip (also known as Don't Slip from Benjamin > I can confirm the above KiwiGrip is good stuff and works as advertised. I have it on La Chica's decks and will use it again. Paul Thompson| 20376|20371|2009-05-17 18:38:39|Alan H. Boucher|Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|I've only used Kiwigrip on fiberglass decks. Its the besdt nonskid product I've seen. If you apply it over a properly prepared surface, it should work well on ateel . lachica31 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > "I would hate to epoxy it down only to have to scrape it off." > > > > > > > > Exactly. I would use Kiwigrip (also known as Don't Slip from Benjamin > > > I can confirm the above KiwiGrip is good stuff and works as > advertised. I have it on La Chica's decks and will use it again. > > Paul Thompson > > | 20377|20371|2009-05-17 21:58:58|Donal Philby|Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|-----Original Message----- >From: Paul Wilson >I would use Kiwigrip (also known as Don't Slip from Benjamin >Moore)...fantastic stuff and probably cheaper than the epoxy you would use >to glue down the treadmaster. Search under the old postings for more info. I'll second that opinion. It is on our deck and it works well. It is a latex product and I was quite sceptical of what it would be like to try sanding it down if I wanted to change the paint pattern or something. Well, after curing it sands beautifully, like micro balloons in epoxy. It is down over epoxy/cloth and seems quite stuck and is very hard now. Whether it is right for steel is certainly worth a call to the dealer in Tacoma or Olympia, though most likely you would put it over a system of epoxy paint on the boat anyway. Putting it on takes a bit of practice and I'd suggest doing a few bits of scrape ply first since the texture is controlled by how you use the supplied roller. And it is easy to touch up every once and a while. Pachena didn't have a color matching service so I had George Kirby Paint company do a match in the dreamy semi gloss enamel they've been making for 150 years or so that I used for the waterways. Maybe Ben Moore has a color matching service (thanks for the sourcing tip, Paul). donal| 20378|20366|2009-05-18 02:05:13|water_murf|Re: Watch out that stuff lights up!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > That is a harrowing tale. Hi Folks, If it was polyurethane foam you were using, the reaction that cures the foam is exothermic, it gives off heat, my guess is that you put too much in one spot and it reacted, generated heat, and spontaneously combusted. A slight imbalance of either the Polyol and Tin catalyst or the TDI would also cause it to get very hot. Some polyurethanes also have a bromide additive which acts as a flame retardant (they use this in Airplane Seats)in the finished product. This slows down the spread of fire but if it gets hot enough the foam will still burn creating lots of horribly toxic smoke. An even spread of foam would give a large surface area to volume and allow the foam to cool as it cures, the foam will give off toxic fumes for up to 24 hours after manufacture, so its very important to flush the air out of the hull before venturing inside. If you smell a sweet almond flavour this is the Cynanide from the Toluene Diisocyanate and you need to exit immediately. I used to make large volumes of this stuff for a job and we used to monitor the temperature for 24 hours after manufacture. Cheers Clive| 20379|11091|2009-05-18 07:39:34|James Pronk|GPS|I was looking at a few options for GPS. I was going to get a hand held but I saw that I could get a GPS antenna with a USP plug for my lap top. Would this be a good option? James Pronk| 20380|11091|2009-05-18 09:34:26|Carl Anderson|Re: GPS|It would if you are using some sort of charting program on your computer but it is nice to have a hand held as a backup. Using the USB GPS will require that you have the computer on to use the information coming from the GPS. Not a big deal. For me I'm using the GPS inside my AIS as the primary and have a hand held as the backup. Good idea to have 2 of these things aboard. By the way I just received my official CHS charts (raster versions) and they look great (would have liked to get them in vector format but the price is VERY high!). Carl sv-mom.com James Pronk wrote: > > > > I was looking at a few options for GPS. I was going to get a hand held > but I saw that I could get a GPS antenna with a USP plug for my lap top. > Would this be a good option? > James Pronk > > | 20381|20371|2009-05-18 10:35:47|mickeyolaf|Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|I'll look around for the product. I should do a test to see if it sticks to sanded polyurethane clearcoat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alan H. Boucher" wrote: > > I've only used Kiwigrip on fiberglass decks. Its the besdt nonskid > product I've seen. If you apply it over a properly prepared surface, it > should work well on ateel . > > lachica31 wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > > > > > "I would hate to epoxy it down only to have to scrape it off." > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. I would use Kiwigrip (also known as Don't Slip from Benjamin > > > > > I can confirm the above KiwiGrip is good stuff and works as > > advertised. I have it on La Chica's decks and will use it again. > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > | 20382|11091|2009-05-18 12:25:03|kanis707|Re: GPS|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: >It works well with the PC charting software and you can use it on land in the car also. One issue would be the lenth of the USB cable they are limited to 6 ft or so and you need to locate the laptop to allow the GPS unit to be outside. > I was looking at a few options for GPS. I was going to get a hand held but I saw that I could get a GPS antenna with a USP plug for my lap top. > Would this be a good option? > James Pronk > | 20383|11091|2009-05-18 13:17:17|David Frantz|Re: GPS|The USB approach with an antenna dongle is a valid approach but there are caveat. First; the vast majority of laptops are not water proof nor corrosion protected. In the past that wasn't an issue as laptops became outdated real fast, it may be a consideration today. Second; you will need to buy software. The good thing here is lots to choose from. Third; you now have to keep track of that dongle. That is if you are like me and have a tendency to misplace things. Fourth; I can't really call this approach a replacement for a hand held unit. They are two different approaches that serve different needs. That being said a handheld unit is very valuable in my opinion. Now you might not realize this but there is a broad spectrum of handheld GPS units available. The most interesting approach these days is cell phone with GPS built in. It is a good way to have GPS with you all the time without fuss. I'm sure others will post their opinions, many based on more experience then I have. So do consider what they have to say. In a nut shell I see a handheld unit as serving a different need than something like a laptop. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On May 18, 2009, at 7:38 AM, James Pronk wrote: > I was looking at a few options for GPS. I was going to get a hand > held but I saw that I could get a GPS antenna with a USP plug for my > lap top. > Would this be a good option? > James Pronk > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20384|22|2009-05-18 15:23:13|khooper_fboats|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|Very very nice. Will you be doing an accommodation plan for the center cockpit version as well? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats > group. > > File : /Imagiro Boats./229AFGA123.jpg > Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton > Description : 229 Imagir0 39. Accomodation Plans: 1;2 and 3 > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./229AFGA123.jpg > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles > > Regards, > > yvesmariedetanton > | 20385|11091|2009-05-18 19:41:51|Paul Wilson|Re: GPS|I don't think it's an option since the laptop uses too much power to run all the time. I always have a GPS on 24 hours a day, in the cockpit, where I can see it. I steer the boat using the GPS rather than a compass. The handheld waterproof units are great for this and use so little power you won't even notice it. I could never do this with a laptop. If you want to occasionally use the laptop with navigation software (a must have, IMHO), you can use a data cable from the handheld, fixed GPS unit, or external receiver, wherever it is mounted. By the way, most cruisers use CMap and are willing to give it away for free when you are out in the cruising grounds. If you are going to buy software, I would buy Oziexplorer for raster (RNC) charts. You can get NOAA charts for North America for free off the internet. Just google RNC NOAA charts. Ozi is relatively cheap and a great program. Maxsea is out in the cruising grounds a quite often given away for free like the CMap. It will read vector charts (Cmap) as well as raster charts but it is very expensive. I find it very powerful but it has a steep learning curve. Cheers, Paul On May 18, 2009, at 7:38 AM, James Pronk > wrote: > I was looking at a few options for GPS. I was going to get a hand > held but I saw that I could get a GPS antenna with a USP plug for my > lap top. > Would this be a good option? > James Pronk > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20386|20371|2009-05-18 22:21:14|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|My Etap 26 has grey treadmaster decks that are 25 years old, and in need of replacement now. It is still extremely non-skid, but holes are appearing in it. If you decide not to us it I would be interested in purchasing what you have. My boat has recesses where the treadmaster sits, so the surface is flush. That means paint on products wouldn't work real well as a replacement. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Treadmaster: Good or Bad? I picked up 7 sheets of Treadmaster non-skid quite cheap, the grey diamond pattern stuff. If u google it some say it is great, some say it is useless and degrades quickly in UV. There is a topcoat u can put on it but who knows if it extends the life. Anybody ever had this stuff on a boat? How successful was it? I would hate to epoxy it down only to have to scrape it off. Just finished painting the decks and house. It took 1.5 gallons of 2 part epoxy primer, 1.5 gallons of Zolatone epoxy primer, 3 gallons of Zolatone finish, and 4 gallons of Endura 2 part UV Clear. Half the clear ends up in the air. I've learned now to buy more than u estimate u'll need. It cost me $30 for a courier when I ran out of clear in Courtenay and had to call Nanaimo for more. Zolatone Silver Grey looks awesome, hides welds, etc. The pattern fools the eye somehow to make the surface look fair. As soon as the final coat of clear was on the house a bird shit on it. Good luck I quess. On to the hull paint. | 20387|11091|2009-05-19 08:12:28|audeojude|Re: GPS|USB cable length is max 14ft or there abouts by the standard spec. however you can buy powered extension cables up to 25 ft long. The combination of the two would give you about 40 ft of length for your usb cable. radiolabs.com has a powered extension this length for about 25$ if I remember right.. hmm let me check.. ok it is 29.95$ and 16 feet long.. so you can get about 30 feet from the computer. I'm not sure if you can stack these things for even more distance. The people at radio labs would probably know. scott -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kanis707" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > >It works well with the PC charting software and you can use it on land in the car also. One issue would be the lenth of the USB cable they are limited to 6 ft or so and you need to locate the laptop to allow the GPS unit to be outside. > | 20388|11091|2009-05-19 09:12:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: GPS|On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 11:38:53AM -0000, James Pronk wrote: > I was looking at a few options for GPS. I was going to get a hand held > but I saw that I could get a GPS antenna with a USP plug for my lap > top. > Would this be a good option? It's an excellent option - assuming you do an "and" rather than an "or". If you're going to have a GPS aboard at all, you definitely need a single, integrated "base" unit, whether it's a handheld or a mounted type - and if you're going to have one, you should have two. Given today's prices on them, it would be silly not to have a backup. The second unit could be the same as the base - or it could be a cheaper one, as long as it does everything you need. If you have cash to spare, you could even extend this reasoning to having a base unit, a backup handheld, and a USB dongle; this would be the "luxury" option. ;) I've got the first two and am planning on getting a dongle soon, and I also carry a good sextant as well as a backup plastic one (and I know how to make a "kamal" as well as how to do basic navigation without any of the above tools.) There's no such thing as too many nav instruments... I was very impressed by a dongle that I saw recently: it was about .75" x 1.5", had a 10' or so USB cable, and a magnet on the underside. The guy the had it just reached up through my main hatch and stuck it to the deck, plugged it into his laptop (an older Compaq with a 12" screen that he used for navigation, which only drew 1A per hour from the batteries), and he was off and running. It cost about $35, as I recall. Given the convenience and the low cost, it makes a great option for route planning, etc. Also, if you've got a reasonable combination of software and GPS, you can transfer routes from one to the other - and frankly, I find it one hell of a lot easier to plan on the laptop and then upload. Creating routes on the GPS itself, particularly ones that span anything over a few miles, can be a pain. I haven't bought the dongle yet, but I've got the brand and model written down at home (I'm teaching a class in Austin right now). If you'd like, I'll be happy to look it up when I get back. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20389|11091|2009-05-19 09:15:09|Ben Okopnik|Re: GPS|On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 12:12:10PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > USB cable length is max 14ft or there abouts by the standard spec. > however you can buy powered extension cables up to 25 ft long. The > combination of the two would give you about 40 ft of length for your > usb cable. > radiolabs.com has a powered extension this length for about 25$ if I > remember right.. hmm let me check.. > > ok it is 29.95$ and 16 feet long.. so you can get about 30 feet from > the computer. I'm not sure if you can stack these things for even more > distance. The people at radio labs would probably know. You can, up to 80'. I've just bought 3 so I can get my new WiFi war-driving rig up to the top of my mast. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20390|20366|2009-05-19 17:31:07|brentswain38|Re: Watch out that stuff lights up!|Sounds like you want to get that stuff covered with latex paint, ASAP. Good thing you didn't lose the works. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Glad your OK Haidan. That is definitely too much excitment. > > The propellant in spray cans is often propane and or butane, something which strikes me as odd. That may be a contributing factor. > > Regards, > Ted > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > So i got the boat sprayfoamed the other day which put's the boat so much closer to the water. Today I was just filling in the gaps with cans of sprayfoam and the guys missed a farely large gap under the 3x3 angle i don't know how i didn't see it when i was checking it over. So I put a bunch of sprayfoam down in the gap and was filling a couple other smaller spots when everthing just burst into flames the 3x3 angle iron, the nearby spots I was filling, the end of the spray straw and me. Scared the shit out of me luckily I walked away from it with singed hair, eyebrows hot goo all over my hands and just a couple of blistery burns on my fore arms. The boat fared about the same after the initial shock I managed to stamp out all the smaller spots on fire and blungened the large burning spot next to the bulkhead with my sweater and kinda downsized it a bit but it wouldn't go out. I had to climb out of the boat jump down grab a bucket of water and climb back in and douse everything down. Holyshit. Black smoke everywhere and water but luckily the foam didn't really catch I still remember thinking that was it back to square one but it really doesn't burn too well. I'm happy for that wow the was a surprise I'll put a couple pictures of the damage up "haidan's boat". Has anyone ever had that happen to them? I still don't know what happened there was not flame or sparks going on maybe from walking around on the foam I built up enough of a static charge too cause a spark I don't know. I can't exactly say what went up first the stuff near the 3x3s or the stuff i was just working on, just suddenly I was on fire my arms and all around me there must have been gas all over man that was scary. It says nothing about spontanious combustion on the can. But i'm pretty sure that I just used too much in one area and it just formed a pocket and compressed the gasses inside. I'm so glad that both me and the boat are allright. I took the rest of the day off and spent some time pulling foam out of my hair and skin, stuff sure is sticky specially after it's been burnt > > > | 20391|20371|2009-05-19 17:37:26|brentswain38|Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|I kinda prefer something that doesn't hide corrosion until it becomes more of a problem. With epoxied decks, you see the first time a rust blister begins to appear and get to nip it in the bud. With coverings like treadmaster, you don't see anything, until it is far more advanced. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Donal Philby wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Paul Wilson > >I would use Kiwigrip (also known as Don't Slip from Benjamin > >Moore)...fantastic stuff and probably cheaper than the epoxy you would use > >to glue down the treadmaster. Search under the old postings for more info. > > I'll second that opinion. It is on our deck and it works well. It is a latex product and I was quite sceptical of what it would be like to try sanding it down if I wanted to change the paint pattern or something. Well, after curing it sands beautifully, like micro balloons in epoxy. It is down over epoxy/cloth and seems quite stuck and is very hard now. Whether it is right for steel is certainly worth a call to the dealer in Tacoma or Olympia, though most likely you would put it over a system of epoxy paint on the boat anyway. Putting it on takes a bit of practice and I'd suggest doing a few bits of scrape ply first since the texture is controlled by how you use the supplied roller. And it is easy to touch up every once and a while. Pachena didn't have a color matching service so I had George Kirby Paint company do a match in the dreamy semi gloss enamel they've been making for 150 years or so that I used for the waterways. Maybe Ben Moore has a color matching service (thanks for the sourcing tip, Paul). > > donal > | 20392|20371|2009-05-19 19:35:44|mickeyolaf|Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|How many years service before your TM looked bad? Maybe the boaters who complain about it are in the tropics or where the UV is extreme ie New Zealand/Aus. I would like to use it but for the work of putting it down I would like ten years of service minimum. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > My Etap 26 has grey treadmaster decks that are 25 years old, and in need of > replacement now. It is still extremely non-skid, but holes are appearing in > it. If you decide not to us it I would be interested in purchasing what you > have. My boat has recesses where the treadmaster sits, so the surface is > flush. That means paint on products wouldn't work real well as a > replacement. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mickeyolaf" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 4:30 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Treadmaster: Good or Bad? > > > I picked up 7 sheets of Treadmaster non-skid quite cheap, the grey diamond > pattern stuff. > > If u google it some say it is great, some say it is useless and degrades > quickly in UV. > > There is a topcoat u can put on it but who knows if it extends the life. > Anybody ever had this stuff on a boat? How successful was it? I would hate > to epoxy it down only to have to scrape it off. > > Just finished painting the decks and house. It took 1.5 gallons of 2 part > epoxy primer, 1.5 gallons of Zolatone epoxy primer, 3 gallons of Zolatone > finish, and 4 gallons of Endura 2 part UV Clear. Half the clear ends up in > the air. I've learned now to buy more than u estimate u'll need. It cost me > $30 for a courier when I ran out of clear in Courtenay and had to call > Nanaimo for more. > > Zolatone Silver Grey looks awesome, hides welds, etc. The pattern fools the > eye somehow to make the surface look fair. > > As soon as the final coat of clear was on the house a bird shit on it. Good > luck I quess. > > On to the hull paint. > | 20393|20366|2009-05-19 21:34:42|theboilerflue|Re: Watch out that stuff lights up!|well people ahd been telling me that they had made great stides in the fire retardency of that stuff and until noiw i didn't really believe it but that stuff really does not burn. I'm pretty sure that it was static that set it off but it was only the newly sprayed stuff the burns. Did you have a look at the pictures of it? For an explosion with fumes all around it's a pretty small burn, even the plastic on the bulkhead didn't melt much almost makes me think that it would have burned it self out after a while cause that plastic was pretty thin and it wouldn't take much heat to melt all that stuff but it hardly even melted and it was only about a foot above the fire. I feel kinda stupid for not having a fire extinguisher in the boat but the day before I really didn't need there was really nothing to burn but now there is an extinguisher that lives in the boat. But yah i'm going to put some paint down on it before i do anything else to it (beside trim the foam). The experiance mostly just scared the shit out of me, I thought for a second that I was totally on fire legs, arms everything luckily not and the burns arn't that bad just like a very very bad sun burn on underside of my forarms. Very glad I didn't lose the works. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Sounds like you want to get that stuff covered with latex paint, ASAP. > Good thing you didn't lose the works. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > > Glad your OK Haidan. That is definitely too much excitment. > > > > The propellant in spray cans is often propane and or butane, something which strikes me as odd. That may be a contributing factor. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > So i got the boat sprayfoamed the other day which put's the boat so much closer to the water. Today I was just filling in the gaps with cans of sprayfoam and the guys missed a farely large gap under the 3x3 angle i don't know how i didn't see it when i was checking it over. So I put a bunch of sprayfoam down in the gap and was filling a couple other smaller spots when everthing just burst into flames the 3x3 angle iron, the nearby spots I was filling, the end of the spray straw and me. Scared the shit out of me luckily I walked away from it with singed hair, eyebrows hot goo all over my hands and just a couple of blistery burns on my fore arms. The boat fared about the same after the initial shock I managed to stamp out all the smaller spots on fire and blungened the large burning spot next to the bulkhead with my sweater and kinda downsized it a bit but it wouldn't go out. I had to climb out of the boat jump down grab a bucket of water and climb back in and douse everything down. Holyshit. Black smoke everywhere and water but luckily the foam didn't really catch I still remember thinking that was it back to square one but it really doesn't burn too well. I'm happy for that wow the was a surprise I'll put a couple pictures of the damage up "haidan's boat". Has anyone ever had that happen to them? I still don't know what happened there was not flame or sparks going on maybe from walking around on the foam I built up enough of a static charge too cause a spark I don't know. I can't exactly say what went up first the stuff near the 3x3s or the stuff i was just working on, just suddenly I was on fire my arms and all around me there must have been gas all over man that was scary. It says nothing about spontanious combustion on the can. But i'm pretty sure that I just used too much in one area and it just formed a pocket and compressed the gasses inside. I'm so glad that both me and the boat are allright. I took the rest of the day off and spent some time pulling foam out of my hair and skin, stuff sure is sticky specially after it's been burnt > > > > > > | 20396|11091|2009-05-20 09:30:58|audeojude|Re: GPS|Ben, When you get the model on this I would love to get it. I have been getting little 14 dollar usb key wifi units and then just putting a cable on them but one that already had a cable on it would be nice. Then totally seal that end waterproof. I have found that on a boat the little usb keys and cables only last 5 or 6 months before corosion becomes significant. This is to the key and cable ends that are above decks when you are using it. I actually have for a primary unit one of the Radio lab marine wifi units that has a high db marine antenna with the usb dongle in the base of the antenna itself. It doesn't work as good as they claim it does but it is still impressive. It's nice that it will mount/screw to a standard VHF base/mount. It's kinda pricey though at 180 bucks. I only ended up with one because I bought one for a client and then had to warranty it and I ended up just getting him a new one. The old one was just out of warranty with radio labs but they do a out of warranty repair where they totally refurbish it for 35 dollars. So I ended up with it. They had an early design flaw that allowed water to get into the base and kill the usb dongle. :) funny thing is that it is the exact same chipset of the 14 dollar dongles I get. Only difference is the ones I could source didn't have the micro antenna connection to hook them up to the external antenna. Otherwise I would have just fixed it myself. scott > I was very impressed by a dongle that I saw recently: it was about .75" x > 1.5", had a 10' or so USB cable, and a magnet on the underside. The guy > the had it just reached up through my main hatch and stuck it to the > deck, plugged it into his laptop (an older Compaq with a 12" screen that > he used for navigation, which only drew 1A per hour from the batteries), > and he was off and running. It cost about $35, as I recall. Given the > convenience and the low cost, it makes a great option for route > planning, etc. Also, if you've got a reasonable combination of software > and GPS, you can transfer routes from one to the other - and frankly, I > find it one hell of a lot easier to plan on the laptop and then upload. > Creating routes on the GPS itself, particularly ones that span anything > over a few miles, can be a pain. > > I haven't bought the dongle yet, but I've got the brand and model > written down at home (I'm teaching a class in Austin right now). If > you'd like, I'll be happy to look it up when I get back. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20397|20397|2009-05-20 20:44:58|brianchabassol|Welding in inside corners|I have had some trouble getting a really good looking weld on some inside corners of my boat. Im pretty picky so mabe im going overboard with this but I was wondering if anyone had any tips on getting a good weld in a corner. My welding is looking pretty darn good on all other seams so I know I can produce a wuality weld, I just need the tecnique. Thanks Brian 31 twin keeler in Nova Scotia, formerly Comox .| 20398|20371|2009-05-20 21:52:45|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad?|I bought the boat at 25 years of age. I would bet it still looked good at 15. While it is doesn't look great right now, it is still serviceable and will probably not get changed for year or two. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 7:34 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Treadmaster: Good or Bad? How many years service before your TM looked bad? Maybe the boaters who complain about it are in the tropics or where the UV is extreme ie New Zealand/Aus. I would like to use it but for the work of putting it down I would like ten years of service minimum. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > My Etap 26 has grey treadmaster decks that are 25 years old, and in need > of > replacement now. It is still extremely non-skid, but holes are appearing > in > it. If you decide not to us it I would be interested in purchasing what > you > have. My boat has recesses where the treadmaster sits, so the surface is > flush. That means paint on products wouldn't work real well as a > replacement. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mickeyolaf" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 4:30 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Treadmaster: Good or Bad? > > > I picked up 7 sheets of Treadmaster non-skid quite cheap, the grey diamond > pattern stuff. > > If u google it some say it is great, some say it is useless and degrades > quickly in UV. > > There is a topcoat u can put on it but who knows if it extends the life. > Anybody ever had this stuff on a boat? How successful was it? I would hate > to epoxy it down only to have to scrape it off. > > Just finished painting the decks and house. It took 1.5 gallons of 2 part > epoxy primer, 1.5 gallons of Zolatone epoxy primer, 3 gallons of Zolatone > finish, and 4 gallons of Endura 2 part UV Clear. Half the clear ends up in > the air. I've learned now to buy more than u estimate u'll need. It cost > me > $30 for a courier when I ran out of clear in Courtenay and had to call > Nanaimo for more. > > Zolatone Silver Grey looks awesome, hides welds, etc. The pattern fools > the > eye somehow to make the surface look fair. > > As soon as the final coat of clear was on the house a bird shit on it. > Good > luck I quess. > > On to the hull paint. > | 20399|20397|2009-05-20 21:58:54|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding in inside corners|It would be good if you said what position, flat, horizontal, vertical, overhead, in order of difficulty. What rod is important too. Some rods suck except in flat or horizontal positions. The smoothness of the weld bead is also related to the type of rod. 7018 produces really smooth weld beads while 6010 produces a sharp edged ripple for instance. What is the fit up like? Are you trying to weld a poorly fitted seam? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianchabassol" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 8:44 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Welding in inside corners I have had some trouble getting a really good looking weld on some inside corners of my boat. Im pretty picky so mabe im going overboard with this but I was wondering if anyone had any tips on getting a good weld in a corner. My welding is looking pretty darn good on all other seams so I know I can produce a wuality weld, I just need the tecnique. Thanks Brian 31 twin keeler in Nova Scotia, formerly Comox . | 20400|11091|2009-05-20 22:01:13|Gary H. Lucas|Re: GPS|Why not take your 14 dollar unit with the cable plugged in, wrap a little tape around the connector, and pot it completely in epoxy? You can get plastic potting boxes with mounting flanges from electronics suppliers like Jameco. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "audeojude" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:30 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: GPS Ben, When you get the model on this I would love to get it. I have been getting little 14 dollar usb key wifi units and then just putting a cable on them but one that already had a cable on it would be nice. Then totally seal that end waterproof. I have found that on a boat the little usb keys and cables only last 5 or 6 months before corosion becomes significant. This is to the key and cable ends that are above decks when you are using it. I actually have for a primary unit one of the Radio lab marine wifi units that has a high db marine antenna with the usb dongle in the base of the antenna itself. It doesn't work as good as they claim it does but it is still impressive. It's nice that it will mount/screw to a standard VHF base/mount. It's kinda pricey though at 180 bucks. I only ended up with one because I bought one for a client and then had to warranty it and I ended up just getting him a new one. The old one was just out of warranty with radio labs but they do a out of warranty repair where they totally refurbish it for 35 dollars. So I ended up with it. They had an early design flaw that allowed water to get into the base and kill the usb dongle. :) funny thing is that it is the exact same chipset of the 14 dollar dongles I get. Only difference is the ones I could source didn't have the micro antenna connection to hook them up to the external antenna. Otherwise I would have just fixed it myself. scott > I was very impressed by a dongle that I saw recently: it was about .75" x > 1.5", had a 10' or so USB cable, and a magnet on the underside. The guy > the had it just reached up through my main hatch and stuck it to the > deck, plugged it into his laptop (an older Compaq with a 12" screen that > he used for navigation, which only drew 1A per hour from the batteries), > and he was off and running. It cost about $35, as I recall. Given the > convenience and the low cost, it makes a great option for route > planning, etc. Also, if you've got a reasonable combination of software > and GPS, you can transfer routes from one to the other - and frankly, I > find it one hell of a lot easier to plan on the laptop and then upload. > Creating routes on the GPS itself, particularly ones that span anything > over a few miles, can be a pain. > > I haven't bought the dongle yet, but I've got the brand and model > written down at home (I'm teaching a class in Austin right now). If > you'd like, I'll be happy to look it up when I get back. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20401|11091|2009-05-21 08:35:43|audeojude|Re: GPS|Hey Gary, I have thought about doing that but with having the unit built into the 8db omni antenna works so much better that I haven't gone to the effort to do anything more with the dongles. It is certainly a decent/cheap short range solution. USB wifi/key 8 to 19 dollars online and a 14 ft unpowered usb cable for another 8 to 10 bucks online and you have a dencent system. For extended reach on deck another 30 bucks for a active usb expansion cord. Your at about an average of 20 to 50 bucks for this solution plus whatever shipping you have to pay depending on whether you get the active extension cable. If you try and source these things locally though it isn't cost effective. USB wifi key is 45 to 60 bucks at the big box stores and a 14 ft usb extension cable is 40 bucks. This puts you between 100 and 140 dollars depending on getting the active extension. If your up in that range I would just jump to the radio labs unit that is tied into an 8db gain omni antenna. If your real techy.. another solution is to get a wireless router that suports client mode and put a high gain omni on it that can be mounted above deck. You then attach it to an available hotspot and have it rebroadcast the signal for your laptop anywhere on your boat. This is a more hands on solution as it requires a bit more knowledge and day to day interaction with it to set it up and keep it running as you move for one location to another. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Why not take your 14 dollar unit with the cable plugged in, wrap a little > tape around the connector, and pot it completely in epoxy? You can get > plastic potting boxes with mounting flanges from electronics suppliers like > Jameco. > > Gary H. Lucas | 20402|11091|2009-05-21 10:31:39|sae140|Re: GPS|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I was looking at a few options for GPS. I was going to get a hand held but I saw that I could get a GPS antenna with a USP plug for my lap top. > Would this be a good option? > James Pronk > I've never been overly impressed with the concept of 'GPS-mice/ dongles', whether these be serial or USB, for although they present an el cheapo GPS solution this set-up is totally reliant on both the GPS unit AND the computer working - if either fails there ain't no positional info. Also, GPS mice and dongles do not usually store waypoints and rely on the computer for waypoint operations. On the other hand, should your laptop fall over then a GPS handheld will still be able to function as a stand-alone unit. If you only have a USB port and need a long cable, I'm sure that a long RS232 cable plugged into an RS232-USB adapter would do the trick. Very much a personal thing of course - I have 3 x TP600 laptops, 3 x Lowrance GPS handhelds, and 3 x separate sources of power (plus photocopied charts & sextant - checkout: http://www.ybw.com/auto/newsdesk/20090419145006ymnews.html for news of GPS's state of play) - hopefully that's enough built-in redundancy ... Colin| 20403|20397|2009-05-21 13:26:14|theboilerflue|Re: Welding in inside corners|Brian, remember everything does get covered in foam never to been seen again. put enough metal down and it'll hold. Also I always found it was easier too weld one side of a joint if the other side was all ready welded, i guess it gave the weld metal something more it attach to and you could weld hot and faster. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" wrote: > > I have had some trouble getting a really good looking weld on some inside corners of my boat. Im pretty picky so mabe im going overboard with this but I was wondering if anyone had any tips on getting a good weld in a corner. My welding is looking pretty darn good on all other seams so I know I can produce a wuality weld, I just need the tecnique. > Thanks > Brian > 31 twin keeler in Nova Scotia, formerly Comox . > | 20404|20397|2009-05-21 13:33:12|Grant Henry|Re: Welding in inside corners|Brian, I like the idea of good welds - more is not better in the least. Try this, take a compass used to draw circles, tilt it over about 15 degrees, and "lead" it around to draw a circle on a piece of paper. Inside corners require the same motion, takes a bit of practice. Grant From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of theboilerflue Sent: May 21, 2009 11:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding in inside corners Brian, remember everything does get covered in foam never to been seen again. put enough metal down and it'll hold. Also I always found it was easier too weld one side of a joint if the other side was all ready welded, i guess it gave the weld metal something more it attach to and you could weld hot and faster. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brianchabassol" wrote: > > I have had some trouble getting a really good looking weld on some inside corners of my boat. Im pretty picky so mabe im going overboard with this but I was wondering if anyone had any tips on getting a good weld in a corner. My welding is looking pretty darn good on all other seams so I know I can produce a wuality weld, I just need the tecnique. > Thanks > Brian > 31 twin keeler in Nova Scotia, formerly Comox . > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20405|20397|2009-05-21 14:07:14|Carl Volkwein|Re: Welding in inside corners|Hey Brian, I don't know if this has already been suggested, but sometimes you can bend the electrode a bit so it's at a better angle, just the last inch or two carlvolkwein --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Grant Henry wrote: From: Grant Henry Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding in inside corners To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 1:31 PM Brian, I like the idea of good welds - more is not better in the least. Try this, take a compass used to draw circles, tilt it over about 15 degrees, and "lead" it around to draw a circle on a piece of paper. Inside corners require the same motion, takes a bit of practice. Grant From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of theboilerflue Sent: May 21, 2009 11:26 AM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding in inside corners Brian, remember everything does get covered in foam never to been seen again. put enough metal down and it'll hold. Also I always found it was easier too weld one side of a joint if the other side was all ready welded, i guess it gave the weld metal something more it attach to and you could weld hot and faster. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com , "brianchabassol" wrote: > > I have had some trouble getting a really good looking weld on some inside corners of my boat. Im pretty picky so mabe im going overboard with this but I was wondering if anyone had any tips on getting a good weld in a corner. My welding is looking pretty darn good on all other seams so I know I can produce a wuality weld, I just need the tecnique. > Thanks > Brian > 31 twin keeler in Nova Scotia, formerly Comox . > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20406|20397|2009-05-21 15:50:05|brentswain38|Re: Welding in inside corners|Sometimes one can weld hard to see areas by holding a mirror in one hand or setting it in the right position and seeing the weld thru the mirror. A bit tricky, but better than welding blind. Which particular welds are you refering to? brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Hey Brian, > I don't know if this has already been suggested, but sometimes you can bend the electrode a bit so it's at a better angle, just the last inch or two > carlvolkwein > > --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Grant Henry wrote: > > From: Grant Henry > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding in inside corners > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 1:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian, I like the idea of good welds - more is not better in the least. > > Try this, take a compass used to draw circles, tilt it over about 15 > > degrees, and "lead" it around to draw a circle on a piece of paper. > > Inside corners require the same motion, takes a bit of practice. > > > > Grant > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] > > On Behalf Of theboilerflue > > Sent: May 21, 2009 11:26 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding in inside corners > > > > Brian, remember everything does get covered in foam never to been seen > > again. put enough metal down and it'll hold. Also I always found it was > > easier too weld one side of a joint if the other side was all ready > > welded, i guess it gave the weld metal something more it attach to and > > you could weld hot and faster. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > , "brianchabassol" > > wrote: > > > > > > I have had some trouble getting a really good looking weld on some > > inside corners of my boat. Im pretty picky so mabe im going overboard > > with this but I was wondering if anyone had any tips on getting a good > > weld in a corner. My welding is looking pretty darn good on all other > > seams so I know I can produce a wuality weld, I just need the tecnique. > > > Thanks > > > Brian > > > 31 twin keeler in Nova Scotia, formerly Comox . > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20407|20345|2009-05-21 15:53:45|brentswain38|Re: Swain 31 on ebay|The buyer can sell that complex piece of junk self steering gear off the back for a good buck, then build a proper one with the directions in my book. That will bring the total price even lower. With the toughness efficency and proven reliabilty of trimtab self steering , I'm always amazed that people will get sucked into buying such flimsey self steering gear at such huge eprices for a boat with an outboard rudder. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > It finally sold for $27,000.00 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: svfrolic@... > Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 23:14:03 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain 31 on ebay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe somebody is interested, I just found her on ebay: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1995-Brent-Swain-31-Steel-Sloop_W0QQitemZ150343290997QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSailboats?hash=item2301289075&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Découvrez toute l'actualité de vos amis au même endroit. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660831 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20408|11091|2009-05-21 16:11:43|Paul Wilson|Re: GPS|I don't know if they work or not but there are quite a few plans for wifi antennas and boosters on www.instructables.com. Some are to boost the range using such items as cooking woks and steamers. Amusing, cheap and inventive, if they work. http://www.instructables.com/tag/keyword:antenna/?sort=none &q=wifi&limit:type:id=on Cheers, Paul Hey Gary, I have thought about doing that but with having the unit built into the 8db omni antenna works so much better that I haven't gone to the effort to do anything more with the dongles. It is certainly a decent/cheap short range solution. USB wifi/key 8 to 19 dollars online and a 14 ft unpowered usb cable for another 8 to 10 bucks online and you have a dencent system. For extended reach on deck another 30 bucks for a active usb expansion cord. Your at about an average of 20 to 50 bucks for this solution plus whatever shipping you have to pay depending on whether you get the active extension cable. If you try and source these things locally though it isn't cost effective. USB wifi key is 45 to 60 bucks at the big box stores and a 14 ft usb extension cable is 40 bucks. This puts you between 100 and 140 dollars depending on getting the active extension. If your up in that range I would just jump to the radio labs unit that is tied into an 8db gain omni antenna. If your real techy.. another solution is to get a wireless router that suports client mode and put a high gain omni on it that can be mounted above deck. You then attach it to an available hotspot and have it rebroadcast the signal for your laptop anywhere on your boat. This is a more hands on solution as it requires a bit more knowledge and day to day interaction with it to set it up and keep it running as you move for one location to another. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Why not take your 14 dollar unit with the cable plugged in, wrap a little > tape around the connector, and pot it completely in epoxy? You can get > plastic potting boxes with mounting flanges from electronics suppliers like > Jameco. > > Gary H. Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20409|11091|2009-05-21 18:24:13|Ben Okopnik|Re: GPS|On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 08:11:29AM +1200, Paul Wilson wrote: > I don't know if they work or not but there are quite a few plans for wifi > antennas and boosters on www.instructables.com. Some are to boost the > range using such items as cooking woks and steamers. Amusing, cheap and > inventive, if they work. > > http://www.instructables.com/tag/keyword:antenna/?sort=none > pe:id=on> &q=wifi&limit:type:id=on The Wok-Fi (or Wi-Fry) antennas work very well... if you have a rock-steady platform to aim them from. For a boat, you need an omni-directional antenna - the opposite of a parabolic one. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20410|20410|2009-05-21 19:14:56|Doug|Shopping of a Fiberglass Mast|I'm looking around for an economical tapered fiberglass mast so I went to Shakespeare Composite who manufacture these by the truck load. The representative my my area forwarded me this replay: "The regional sales manager just emailed me stating that Shakespeare does not manufacture poles for this application. Sorry." I just love it when some douche bag decides I can not buy their product for my application. So does anyone know of a another fiberglass pole company that does not have a douche bag for a regional sales manager? Doug Jackson SubmarineBoat.com| 20411|11091|2009-05-22 09:55:02|audeojude|Re: GPS|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Wilson" wrote: > > I don't know if they work or not but there are quite a few plans for wifi > antennas and boosters on www.instructables.com. Some are to boost the > range using such items as cooking woks and steamers. Amusing, cheap and > inventive, if they work. > > > > http://www.instructables.com/tag/keyword:antenna/?sort=none > pe:id=on> &q=wifi&limit:type:id=on > > > > Cheers, Paul Paul, a lot of these home brew antennas work quite well. The biggest problem is durability in a saltwater or outside environment. I have played with making and using home brew antennas and finally gave up and just buy commercial level equipment. The durability, appearance, size and average performance of my efforts just didn't compare to what you can buy already made. I also found that by the time I spent the time learning how to make and then making it that I could have paid for and been using one for a while if I had just bought it. I can buy 15 db 35 degree beam directional outdoor antennas for under 50 bucks now. Made of quality aluminum and plastic housings. I'm in the process of installing a 802.11 multi point wireless bridge with AP and client abilities for a customer right now using three routers and three antennas with associated cables. My hardware cost was just 600 dollars or so for all the wireless equipment. The antennas themselves were less than 160 dollars total for 2 15 db gain directional antennas and one 9 db omni antenna. My cost isn't even wholesale just normal retail from my supplier. Prices for this kind of stuff has fallen drastically over the last year or so. Where I'm at right now is that home brew stuff is fun to play with if you have the time and is a great learning experience, but in a dollars to performance/usability/time scale the commercial stuff wins out hands down.| 20412|20410|2009-05-22 13:52:27|Marty|Re: Shopping of a Fiberglass Mast|If you told him it was for a boat that was the problem. If you do find another manufacturer just give them the size you want, if they ask what it's for tell them it's for a flagpole or something similar. There are invariably two responses from suppliers when you tell them you need something for a boat or an airplane; (1) the price increases by a factor of 10, or (2) they won't sell it to you for fear of liability lawsuits. Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug" To: Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 7:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Shopping of a Fiberglass Mast > I'm looking around for an economical tapered fiberglass mast so I went to > Shakespeare Composite who manufacture these by the truck load. The > representative my my area forwarded me this replay: > > "The regional sales manager just emailed me stating that Shakespeare does > not manufacture poles for this application. Sorry." > > I just love it when some douche bag decides I can not buy their product > for my application. So does anyone know of a another fiberglass pole > company that does not have a douche bag for a regional sales manager? > > Doug Jackson > SubmarineBoat.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > | 20413|20413|2009-05-22 14:35:26|prairiemaidca|Shaft coupler Question|Hi All; Looking for opinions on shaft key material. Should the key for the gear end of the shaft be S.S. material or just standard key stock? The coupler appears to be mild steel and the Shaft is S.S. material. Also will copper coat antiseize work for this application or should another type be utilized in that area? The prop came with a brass type key so I figure it will possibly shear if one had a prop strike. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 20414|20413|2009-05-22 15:03:09|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Shaft coupler Question|Key material should always be softer than the items it is fitted to .I have seen hard keys not fitted properly that have acted as a cutter ruining both shaft and pulley ,etc . Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20415|20413|2009-05-22 18:51:09|David Frantz|Re: Shaft coupler Question|My opinion is that the easy way out of this I'd to go all stainless steel. That to make dealling with corrosion easier. As to shearing the brass keystock I suppose it is possible but I'd seek input from the coupling manufacture. At least in the industrial sense keys are awfully hard to shear off if properly installed. On the other hand soft keys have been used for ages on small engine fly wheels for much the same reason. To find out what the manufactures intentions where it is best to ask them directly. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On May 22, 2009, at 2:35 PM, prairiemaidca wrote: > Hi All; Looking for opinions on shaft key material. Should the key > for the gear end of the shaft be S.S. material or just standard key > stock? The coupler appears to be mild steel and the Shaft is S.S. > material. Also will copper coat antiseize work for this application > or should another type be utilized in that area? The prop came with > a brass type key so I figure it will possibly shear if one had a > prop strike. Martin (Prairie Maid) > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20416|20413|2009-05-22 19:34:08|Aaron Williams|Re: Shaft coupler Question|I would use a nickle base antiseize on stainless steel. --- On Fri, 5/22/09, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Shaft coupler Question To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 2:47 PM My opinion is that the easy way out of this I'd to go all stainless steel. That to make dealling with corrosion easier. As to shearing the brass keystock I suppose it is possible but I'd seek input from the coupling manufacture. At least in the industrial sense keys are awfully hard to shear off if properly installed. On the other hand soft keys have been used for ages on small engine fly wheels for much the same reason. To find out what the manufactures intentions where it is best to ask them directly. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On May 22, 2009, at 2:35 PM, prairiemaidca wrote: > Hi All; Looking for opinions on shaft key material. Should the key > for the gear end of the shaft be S.S. material or just standard key > stock? The coupler appears to be mild steel and the Shaft is S.S. > material. Also will copper coat antiseize work for this application > or should another type be utilized in that area? The prop came with > a brass type key so I figure it will possibly shear if one had a > prop strike. Martin (Prairie Maid) > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20417|20417|2009-05-23 04:36:09|mochilero2|professional boat builders?|Hi, I'm new to this group and I'm eager to learn more about origami boats. I've lived aboard and sailed a 27ft fiberglass sloop in Alaska for six years, and recently began searching for my next boat – one that is slightly larger and offshore cruising capable. The origami concept seems to fit well with my desire to have a simple, strong boat that could be constructed with a reasonable amount of time and bucks. I think the Brent Swain 31 would be the ideal design for my needs. However I'm not a metalworker, and even if I were I have no space in which to build a boat. So, I was wondering if someone has a list of recommended origami boat builders in Canada or Pacific Northwest? What might be a ball-park cost estimate for a builder to complete a BS31 hull, deck, and rigging, ready to float?| 20418|11091|2009-05-23 10:51:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: GPS|On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 01:30:19PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > Ben, > When you get the model on this I would love to get it. I have been > getting little 14 dollar usb key wifi units and then just putting a > cable on them but one that already had a cable on it would be nice. > Then totally seal that end waterproof. I have found that on a boat the > little usb keys and cables only last 5 or 6 months before corosion > becomes significant. This is to the key and cable ends that are above > decks when you are using it. [blink] Somehow, I got confused - perhaps between two conversations going on in different forums - and thought this was about a GPS dongle rather than a WiFi dongle. The former, in case anyone is interested, was one of these, or something very similar to it: http://cgi.ebay.com/Gosget-BU-358-SiRF-III-USB-GPS-Receiver_W0QQitemZ230314072964QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGPS_Devices?hash=item359fc9db84&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50 or http://tinyurl.com/o5oh7b As far as WiFi goes, I use an external unit that I'm planning to put into a waterproof housing and mount at the masthead. I've been playing around with it, and it's quite impressive: while wardriving (looking for open access points while driving around) here in Austin, I've been pulling in an average of 40-50 APs where my built-in WiFi gets maybe 4. Here's the unit I'm using: Alfa AWUS036H with a 9dB omnidirectional antenna http://roklandllc.blogspot.com/2009/01/alfa-awus036h-vs-gsky-500mw-usb-adapter.html About $50 for the unit itself, another $15 for the high-gain antenna. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20419|20419|2009-05-23 11:16:45|mickeyolaf|Anodizing or Chrome?|I have some aluminum parts I want to either chrome or anodize marine grey. Does anybody know which in the long term will stand up better in salt spray? I've noticed on some of my Schaeffer gear the black anodizing chips off.| 20420|20419|2009-05-23 11:44:18|Aaron Williams|Re: Anodizing or Chrome?|Mickey I have been powder coating metal parts for the last 3 years and I think you would be very happy with the results. Two places that I have bought powder from, They are a good resource for color choices. They both sell ceramic spray on coatings that does work for exhaust pipes. Small parts one can do themselves with an old electric oven and a cheaper priced gun. Acid etch or sandblast, the same as if you were going to paint the aluminum or steel pre bake the part in the oven so it gets dry cool down to under 180f \ 82c (most powders melt at 180 deg F) then blow the powder on. set the part in the oven bake for 15 minutes on average time. As soonas it cools to touch you can install the part. www.powderbuythepound.com www.columbiacoatings.com Aaron --- On Sat, 5/23/09, mickeyolaf wrote: From: mickeyolaf Subject: [origamiboats] Anodizing or Chrome? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009, 7:16 AM I have some aluminum parts I want to either chrome or anodize marine grey. Does anybody know which in the long term will stand up better in salt spray? I've noticed on some of my Schaeffer gear the black anodizing chips off. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20421|20410|2009-05-23 11:49:53|Doug|Re: Shopping of a Fiberglass Mast|Right you are. But the need to hide information for a company pisses my off. And it starts you having to answer a bunch of questions, like "Why you don't need a base?", and "What is the wire load?" The whole idea that a sales manager deciding if I warrant the privilege of buying there product based on his knowledge of sailboat construction is ridicules. You think building a boat is bad, try it when building a submarine. I know it's driven by our litigious society, but the sales manager is just adding to the problem of ambulance chasing lawyers, their clients and those occasional 7 morons on the jury. Imagine if all companies behaved as poorly as Shakespeare Composites. Think how many times Home Depot would have to say, "I'm sorry, but we can not sell you PVC pipe for that purpose." Thankfully there are companies that want to help. Smith Fiberglass manufactures fiberglass pipe right here in Tulsa. Unfortunately then can not taper it, but when I told the salesman what I was doing he has enthusiastic about it. It also turns out that the company's owner sponsored an America's Cup winner. Stepping down from the soap box. Doug Jackson SubmarineBoat.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Marty" wrote: > > If you told him it was for a boat that was the problem. If you do find > another manufacturer just give them the size you want, if they ask what it's > for tell them it's for a flagpole or something similar. There are > invariably two responses from suppliers when you tell them you need > something for a boat or an airplane; (1) the price increases by a factor of > 10, or (2) they won't sell it to you for fear of liability lawsuits. > > Marty > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 7:14 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Shopping of a Fiberglass Mast > > > > I'm looking around for an economical tapered fiberglass mast so I went to > > Shakespeare Composite who manufacture these by the truck load. The > > representative my my area forwarded me this replay: > > > > "The regional sales manager just emailed me stating that Shakespeare does > > not manufacture poles for this application. Sorry." > > > > I just love it when some douche bag decides I can not buy their product > > for my application. So does anyone know of a another fiberglass pole > > company that does not have a douche bag for a regional sales manager? > > > > Doug Jackson > > SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 20422|20419|2009-05-23 15:43:44|polaris041|Re: Anodizing or Chrome?|If it "chips off', it ain't anodizing. More like powder coating. Anodizing is a chemical infusion INTO the pore structure of the base metal. Powder coating sits on the surface. As for chrome plating aluminium, i'm not familiar, but an aquantance once used to electro plate insects with gold, so I suppose anyting can be done. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I have some aluminum parts I want to either chrome or anodize marine grey. > Does anybody know which in the long term will stand up better in salt spray? > I've noticed on some of my Schaeffer gear the black anodizing chips off. > | 20424|20424|2009-05-23 20:58:37|john66bessa|Blowing my mind|I just want to say that I just got introduced to this idea and it is blowing my mind. Just this morning I was wondering if there is an alternate way to make a Herrashoff Macro Polo hull.| 20425|20425|2009-05-23 21:06:04|john66bessa|Ketch Vs. Schooner Junk Rigs|I have a few questions already, this is the first that comes to mind. I have sailed on traditional schooners all my life that were either wood, or early enough to be steel built as wood. When I finally got my own boat (besides the banks dory and the lifeboat), it was a nice racing sloop, a Ranger 23. The Ranger works best under a full length genoa with nothing else up. I often thought a junk spanker would have been nice if the boat could be extended into a double-ender to help the steering. So my thought is that a ketch junk rig with a forward-leaning main mast would be very genoa-friendly for some sailing (with the junk mizzen helping with steering), and at other times the traditional Asian lug-rig would be better. Just my 2cts. John| 20426|20426|2009-05-24 00:00:38|Doug|Eight Sided Steel Mast|I can get eight sided galvanized mast (utility poles) locally but I wonder about the esthetic's. Does anyone have photos of an eight sided steel mast? Thanks Doug Jackson SubmarineBoat.com| 20427|20426|2009-05-24 00:30:30|lachica31|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > I can get eight sided galvanized mast (utility poles) locally but I wonder about the esthetic's. Does anyone have photos of an eight sided steel mast? Doug, 8 sided does not look to bad (there are hundreds of street light poles in Auckland that are 8 sided). However 16 sided looks much, much better and from more than about 5 meters or so you cannot even tell if they are round or not. If you can get 8 sided, you can almost certainly get 16 sided from the same outfit. You most likely will have to get them custom made. But you want that anyway as the standard taper used on light poles is more than you want in a free standing junk mast. If you email me direct, I will send you photo's of a 16 sided mast and I can also send you a spread sheet to calculate the section size. Lastly, forget about fibreglass masts, they are just to flexible and you cannot get them stiff enough without them getting really heavy.. I just replaced the fibreglass mast on Carl Bostek's Aphrodite (formally a Galent rig, I am in the process of converting her to a junk rig). Regards, Paul Thompson| 20428|20426|2009-05-24 09:52:07|John van V.|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|I wouldn't sweat it. First, is this for an Asian rig? If so, hey, free feng shue! (16 is probably good too, 4X4 :) I have been long attracted to synthetic fiber lamp posts, but I see from the other post that they might not be useful for an Asian rig.| 20429|20426|2009-05-24 10:46:36|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Hey Paul Yea, 16 sides would look fine, we have a some of 16 sided utility poles around here too, but the local company can only make 8 sided if the top is less than 10 inches (254mm).? And 12 sides if it is greater.? The tops on our mast are 7, 5, and 3 inches.? :( I'm also waiting on prices for rounded tapered steel mast, but they are not made locally.? The other option still in the running is tapering the top 1/4 of a steel pipe.? Oklahoma is a big oil and gas state so we have lots of 42 ft steel pipe laying around. I'm sure that we will go with steel, but I am also looking at aluminum, fiberglass, and wood for sake of comparison. Thanks again, and good luck on Aphrodite Doug Jackson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20430|20426|2009-05-24 10:53:22|John van V.|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Doug writes: "I'm sure that we will go with steel, but I am also looking at aluminum, fiberglass, and wood for sake of comparison." What are the different criteria for choosing? (Or is it criterion?)| 20431|20426|2009-05-24 11:35:17|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Hello John wrote: > > Doug writes: > "I'm sure that we will go with steel, but I am also looking at > aluminum, fiberglass, and wood for sake of comparison." > > What are the different criteria for choosing? (Or is it criterion?) > | 20433|20426|2009-05-24 12:51:00|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Hey Doug, Your No. 4 mast issue, weight does seem counterintuitive but covered it in my naval architecture course. It is an inertia issue, you don’t need a lot of weight for this as it is a long distance from your center of rotation. Here is my submitted answer for the issue: A dismasted sailboat is more vulnerable to capsize as compared to a vessel with an intact mask due to the large inherent roll inertia (i.e. resistance to rolling motion) of the mast and rigging. It is estimated that the mast and rigging contribute 60% of the total roll inertia when compared to the other two major weight contributors to a boat: hull and ballast. While the mast’s and rigging’s combined weight is much less than the other two, it’s gyradius (k, also known as radius of gyration) as measured from the vessel’s CG is much greater. The moment of inertia (Ir) is defined by the calculation: Note that the distance of the center of mass of the mast and rigging from vessel’s CG as defined by k is squared which greatly increases the resistance to roll. A longer natural period of roll (Tn) for a boat is desirable to avoid resonant magnification between the wave trains and the hull. As found in the following equation, a larger Ir will contribute to a larger natural period of roll for the boat: where: Tn = the vessel’s natural period of roll Ir = vessel’s moment of inertia GM = vessel’s metacentric height ∆ = vessel’s mass displacement Hopefully all of the equations came through (if they don’t will attach a PFD file later). With a short period of roll, you roll period may harmonize with the period of the waves so that as each wave hits you it adds more energy to your roll pushing you over further each time until you are finally knocked down. Note that it is distance from the VCG driving this more than the mass of the mast since the distance is a squared function of the vessel’s moment of inertia. PS: Still trying to figure how you are going to carry your sub on your large working yacht? J R/Jay Andros Is., Bahamas From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast Mast Criteria: #1 Strength - We have 3 mast and what I think will be a very stiff boat when loaded so I don't see quick healing spilling load from the sails. Hence I have used strongest recommendations I could find, which were in "Design and Build Your Own Junk Rig". #2 Cost - We are a work boat, and not a charter cruise boat so an 8 sided mast was a starter. A tapered steel pipe is about 1/2 the cost of the custom fab 8 sided mast, but a little weaker due to the welds. #3 Speed of construction. Tapering a steel pipe does not look that bad, but an 8 sided pole comes off the truck galvanized and ready to install. #4 Weight - I know there are some good arguments for heavy mast and longer roll intervals, especially when it's a junk rig anyway. But I'm having problems getting past how counter intuitive that sounds. :) #5 We want the mast hollow and open for wiring and ventilation so having it hot dipped galvanized seems like the best way to protect the inside surface. The details we've collected so for are here: http://www.submarineboat.com/junk_sails.htm Thanks for making me think about criteria. That helps. Doug Jackson --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "John van V." wrote: > > Doug writes: > "I'm sure that we will go with steel, but I am also looking at > aluminum, fiberglass, and wood for sake of comparison." > > What are the different criteria for choosing? (Or is it criterion?) > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20434|20426|2009-05-24 12:55:03|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Doug, Looks like the equations didn't make it so here is the answer in a PFD document. Take care, Jay Andros Is., Bahamas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20435|20426|2009-05-24 13:07:28|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Anyone else interested in the issue, please email me privately and I will forward the PFD document. R/Jay Andros Is., Bahamas From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay K. Jeffries Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:53 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: 'Doug' Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast Doug, Looks like the equations didn't make it so here is the answer in a PFD document. Take care, Jay Andros Is., Bahamas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20436|20426|2009-05-24 15:08:42|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Thanks Jay The roll speed in time with the waves makes sense.? I'll post your explanation and equations to my web page.? I really appreciate the layman explanation as I am sure others will. We actually considered taking the sub. Jack our hull designer was all about that, but I vetoed it in favor of downsizing to an ROV.? We have to have space to put the booty. :) Best of Luck Doug SubmarineBoat.com -----Original Message----- From: Jay K. Jeffries To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 24 May 2009 12:05 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast Anyone else interested in the issue, please email me privately and I will forward the PFD document. R/Jay Andros Is., Bahamas . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20437|20426|2009-05-24 15:18:59|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Doug, It is always great to follow your various endeavors. The ROV definitely makes sense based upon the size of your sub. I constantly assess various design that could manage to handle a couple of extra tons involved with a personal submersible. Very few can stand up to the mass up above the waterline. Will we see you up at the PSUB Conference this year in Vancouver at Phil Nuytten's facility? We are suppose to get some bottom time in his one-man submersibles plus there is talk of putting his 4-man sub in the water also. All we have to do is pay the crane bill. R/Jay Andros Is., Bahamas From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:07 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast Thanks Jay The roll speed in time with the waves makes sense.? I'll post your explanation and equations to my web page.? I really appreciate the layman explanation as I am sure others will. We actually considered taking the sub. Jack our hull designer was all about that, but I vetoed it in favor of downsizing to an ROV.? We have to have space to put the booty. :) Best of Luck Doug SubmarineBoat.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20438|20426|2009-05-24 21:06:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 09:52:01AM -0400, John van V. wrote: > I wouldn't sweat it. > > First, is this for an Asian rig? If so, hey, free feng shue! (16 is > probably good too, 4X4 :) [laugh] Nicely spotted - except that four is an *un*lucky number (since it sounds like the word for "death"); in fact, some buildings in Asia don't have a 4th floor for that reason. Eight, on the other hand, sounds like "wealth", and is thus considered very lucky. > I have been long attracted to synthetic fiber lamp posts, but I see > from the other post that they might not be useful for an Asian rig. That's probably because "fiberglass" sounds like a horrible insult in some Asian language. Better stick with steel or wood. :))) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20439|20426|2009-05-25 03:15:34|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Hellò, I'm Alfredo from Italy. I would appreciate if you could send me the pdf of the "Eight Sided Steel Mast". Thanks alfredo ---------- Initial Header ----------- From : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc : Date : Sun, 24 May 2009 13:05:29 -0400 Subject : RE: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast > Anyone else interested in the issue, please email me privately and I will > forward the PFD document. > > R/Jay > > Andros Is., Bahamas > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jay K. Jeffries > Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:53 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Cc: 'Doug' > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast > > > > > > > > > Doug, > > Looks like the equations didn't make it so here is the answer in a PFD > document. > > Take care, > > Jay > > Andros Is., Bahamas > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 20440|20440|2009-05-25 09:21:38|ANDREW AIREY|(no subject)|Hi all Many years ago a friend and I used powder coating on some vintage motorcycle parts.Mine were shotblasted and coated - no problems.His were shotblasted,zinc sprayed and powder coated.The coating bubbled and it all had to be redone.I realise that this doesn't answer your question about aluminium but it does mean that you should take advice on whether the powder coating will react with the substrate cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 20441|22|2009-05-25 09:36:57|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Mast_and_roll_inertia.pdf Uploaded by : djackson991 Description : Mast And Roll Inertia You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Mast_and_roll_inertia.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, djackson991 | 20442|20426|2009-05-25 09:40:53|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Alfredo I put Jay's file in the files folder as "Mast_and_roll_inertia.pdf" and you can also download it from my site: http://www.submarineboat.com/files/Mast_and_roll_inertia.pdf Best of Luck Doug -----Original Message----- From: alfredo.nannetti@... To: origamiboats Sent: Mon, 25 May 2009 2:15 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast Hellò, I'm Alfredo from Italy. I would appreciate if you could send me the pdf of the "Eight Sided Steel Mast". Thanks alfredo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20443|20443|2009-05-25 09:56:26|SHANE ROTHWELL|Eight sided steel mast|Hey Guys, Careful on the Feng Shui! Will have to ask re the number 16, but the number 4 is DEATH. In Chinese countries you wil NEVER see a 4th, or a 14th floor in any building. The 24th, 34th floor.....won't even go there. And be sure to 'dot the eyes' at the launching serimony. the eyes on the front of the boat that is, otherwise you will not be able to find your way home. Ok, a bit different, but these guys had manned flight whilst our ancestors were still grubbing around in caves with animal skins on their backs. And look what they've done since 1976 (Mao's death). they were flat on their ass after the madness of Mao. Bit different but look at what they now control and who they now have by the short & curlies. Shane __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/| 20444|22|2009-05-25 10:28:43|Gordon Schnell|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|Thanks for posting the "Roll and Inertia Relationship". I have looked for that previously. It begs the question: What is an ideal period of rotation? It would be a "must know" for responsible "mast procurement". Gord origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats > group. > > File : /Mast_and_roll_inertia.pdf > Uploaded by : djackson991 > > Description : Mast And Roll Inertia > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Mast_and_roll_inertia.pdf > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles > > > Regards, > > djackson991 > > > > | 20445|11091|2009-05-25 10:48:19|audeojude|Re: GPS|looks sweet. the reviews seem good to. :) I will have to get one of these to play with. scott > > Alfa AWUS036H with a 9dB omnidirectional antenna > http://roklandllc.blogspot.com/2009/01/alfa-awus036h-vs-gsky-500mw-usb-adapter.html > > About $50 for the unit itself, another $15 for the high-gain antenna. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20446|22|2009-05-25 12:27:00|John van V.|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|When Hudson rolled his Colvin schooner ORBIT in the Atlantic he noted that she became more stable after losing her masts.| 20447|11091|2009-05-25 13:56:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: GPS|On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 02:48:11PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > looks sweet. the reviews seem good to. :) It's the wardrivers' favorite toy. :) For $50, plus maybe $15 for a high-gain antenna, it's pretty hard to beat. We got back to Beaufort Saturday night after two weeks on the road to find that the powered USB extensions that I'd ordered had arrived. Last night, I hooked one up as a test and hoisted the Alfa unit on my flag halyard, about 15' off the deck. The difference is amazing: my built-in Wifi interface (which is actually a pretty good quality, 500mW Atheros AR242 card) shows 2-5 APs, depending on which way we're swinging - all either commercial (the marina here will sell you a connection) or private (some of the huge powerboats here have their own wireless gateways, but they're all secured.) The Alfa, however, shows *74* APs (information collected via Kismet over a 5-minute period.) Moreover, the top 18 APs are all shown as being about the same strength (0 to -1dBm). Right now, I'm tapped into the free Beaufort mesh network, which isn't even visible from here without the Alfa, and life is good. > I will have to get one of these to play with. Enjoy! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20448|20448|2009-05-25 17:52:39|j h lean|(no subject)|A friend used a steel mast for junk rigged boat but it was too heavy even for his stiff boat... he and I now use home made fibreglass masts which are great for junk rigs ... also if you run wires up it you must ensure that they cannot clang on the inside walls or it will drive you insane.... jhlean... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20449|20449|2009-05-25 18:46:26|John van V.|Re: Fiberglass masts|How do you come by your masts, or do you make them? John On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 5:52 PM, j h lean wrote: > A friend used a steel mast for junk rigged boat but it was too heavy even for his stiff boat... he and I now use home made fibreglass masts which are great for junk rigs ... also if you run wires up it you must ensure that they cannot clang on the inside walls or it will drive you insane.... jhlean... > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Empathy http://thinman.com/empathy Photography http://thinman.com/photography Technology http://thinman.com | 20450|20443|2009-05-25 19:01:35|John van V.|Re: Eight sided steel mast|There is no doubt that communism sucks but you say: "Bit different but look at what they now control and who they now have by the short & curlies." I saw the integration of the Hong Kong free market cash supply completely changing the situation when Britian handed the city state over, but that cannot be the complete story--they had to have had help. It was a our banking system that totally sold out manufacturing to China. And they did the same with technology to Bhopal India. Our new relationship with Pakistan will possibly change the technology sell-out, but I wonder how we will untangle the manufacturing sell-out. Probably the same players initiated both sell-outs: the Kissinger/Greenspan gang. But that's all over now.| 20451|22|2009-05-25 20:49:26|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|Gordon, Unfortunately I don't have time to dig it out right now (class assignment due) but if you look in Marchaj book on stability, I seem to remember that he goes into greater detail. Many of these issues concerning static and dynamic stability have no hard set numbers but a compromise has to be reached between many opposing factors. This is where the art comes into the engineering of naval architecture. Only a lot of experience working through various designs backed up with sea trial data makes it easier to make a fair guesstimation of these numbers. R/Jay Andros Is., Bahamas From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Schnell Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 10:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] New file uploaded to origamiboats Thanks for posting the "Roll and Inertia Relationship". I have looked for that previously. It begs the question: What is an ideal period of rotation? It would be a "must know" for responsible "mast procurement". Gord [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20452|22|2009-05-26 14:58:57|saillips|Phillip C Bolger's passing|Sorry to interject non-origami boat topics, but wanted to share the news of Bolger's death. This link is to the Bolger Yahoo Group with a long letter of explanation by Suzanne Altenburger, his wife and companion of 15 years. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/60397| 20453|22|2009-05-26 15:24:31|Ray|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "saillips" wrote: > > Sorry to interject non-origami boat topics, but wanted to share the news of Bolger's death. This link is to the Bolger Yahoo Group with a long letter of explanation by Suzanne Altenburger, his wife and companion of 15 years. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/60397 > This saddens me - I've built several of Bolger's little, different boats - they all worked well, and his method of explaining things made sense to THIS boatbuilding clod. RIP Mr. Bolger -| 20454|22|2009-05-26 18:39:09|maxcamirand|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|The Marchaj book dealing with this is "Seaworthiness: The forgotten factor" Regards, -Maxime Camirand --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jay K. Jeffries" wrote: > > Gordon, > > Unfortunately I don't have time to dig it out right now (class assignment > due) but if you look in Marchaj book on stability, I seem to remember that > he goes into greater detail. | 20455|22|2009-05-26 19:17:27|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|Maxime, Thanks for refreshing my memory. When I look behind a piece of paper pinned to my books shelves above my drafting board, I found my copy that I probably read 2 years ago. Reading Marchaj, you really get a feel for the need to balance a large number of opposing factors to get a good seaworthy vessel and realize that there will still be some negative factors that cannot be mitigated. R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of maxcamirand Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 6:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats The Marchaj book dealing with this is "Seaworthiness: The forgotten factor" Regards, -Maxime Camirand --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Jay K. Jeffries" wrote: > > Gordon, > > Unfortunately I don't have time to dig it out right now (class assignment > due) but if you look in Marchaj book on stability, I seem to remember that > he goes into greater detail. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20456|22|2009-05-26 20:19:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 06:58:49PM -0000, saillips wrote: > Sorry to interject non-origami boat topics, but wanted to share the > news of Bolger's death. This link is to the Bolger Yahoo Group with a > long letter of explanation by Suzanne Altenburger, his wife and > companion of 15 years. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/60397 Even though my one personal experience with Bolger was really awful (well, it was with Suzanne, actually - she was intercepting all the faxes that I was sending to Phil and was incredibly, stupidly arrogant and rude about trying to force _her_ design ideas down my throat), I've always believed that the man had contributed a huge amount of creative, innovative energy into the field of current boat design. He's going to be sorely missed by many... and I include myself in their number. /In pace requiescat/, Phil. You've done good work on this Earth, and memories of you will last long. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20457|22|2009-05-26 22:14:06|Bruce Hallman|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Ben Okopnik (well, it was with Suzanne, actually - she was intercepting all the > faxes that I was sending to Phil and was incredibly, stupidly arrogant > and rude... Stupidly arrogant and rude, look in a mirror. Don't you have a clue what was going on?| 20458|20417|2009-05-26 22:54:19|brentswain38|Re: professional boat builders?|I've built several dozen over the years . I work by the hour with the owner providing materials tools , building site, expenses ,meals and an hourly rate.I estimate 100 hours for the shell ( hull, decks cabin cockpit,keels rudder and skeg,) less if the owner can do the cutting, and some of the rest of the work. I work with the owner. Welding is another 100 hours. I charge $30 an hour, which makes around $3,000 or less for labour for the shell, tacked together. Some owners do enough to reduce the time in half. I hear steel for a 31 is around $7,000 at the moment, for the shell.Stainless scrap for the detailing varies widly in price. How much it costs to do the rest depends on how good a scrounger the owner is . How much syou spend depends on how much used gear you find and what deals you get on it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mochilero2" wrote: > > Hi, > I'm new to this group and I'm eager to learn more about origami boats. I've lived aboard and sailed a 27ft fiberglass sloop in Alaska for six years, and recently began searching for my next boat – one that is slightly larger and offshore cruising capable. The origami concept seems to fit well with my desire to have a simple, strong boat that could be constructed with a reasonable amount of time and bucks. I think the Brent Swain 31 would be the ideal design for my needs. However I'm not a metalworker, and even if I were I have no space in which to build a boat. So, I was wondering if someone has a list of recommended origami boat builders in Canada or Pacific Northwest? What might be a ball-park cost estimate for a builder to complete a BS31 hull, deck, and rigging, ready to float? > | 20459|20419|2009-05-26 22:57:05|brentswain38|Re: Anodizing or Chrome?|I'd go for the anodising.Much tougher and won't chip. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > If it "chips off', it ain't anodizing. > > More like powder coating. > > Anodizing is a chemical infusion INTO the pore structure of the base metal. Powder coating sits on the surface. > > As for chrome plating aluminium, i'm not familiar, but an aquantance once used to electro plate insects with gold, so I suppose anyting can be done. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > I have some aluminum parts I want to either chrome or anodize marine grey. > > Does anybody know which in the long term will stand up better in salt spray? > > I've noticed on some of my Schaeffer gear the black anodizing chips off. > > > | 20460|20424|2009-05-26 22:58:28|brentswain38|Re: Blowing my mind|Just experiment with cardboard patterns scissors and a bit of masking tape and see what shapes you come up with. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "john66bessa" wrote: > > I just want to say that I just got introduced to this idea and it is blowing my mind. > > Just this morning I was wondering if there is an alternate way to make a Herrashoff Macro Polo hull. > | 20461|20426|2009-05-26 23:01:36|brentswain38|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|A friend is cruising Mexico on a gazelle, junk rigged with those for masts.A bit heavy. For a junk, tapered from the bottom up is best for unstayed masts . For a marconi rig , its best if the taper only starts 70% above the decks. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > I can get eight sided galvanized mast (utility poles) locally but I wonder about the esthetic's. Does anyone have photos of an eight sided steel mast? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > SubmarineBoat.com > | 20462|20443|2009-05-26 23:21:02|brentswain38|Re: Eight sided steel mast|Globalisation is based on the naive assumption that shipping costs will remain cheap. Rising oil costs will kill the sellout of manufacturing to China, etc. We will have to start making what we need much closer to home. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John van V." wrote: > > There is no doubt that communism sucks but you say: > > "Bit different but look at what they now control and who they now have > by the short & curlies." > > I saw the integration of the Hong Kong free market cash supply > completely changing the situation when Britian handed the city state > over, but that cannot be the complete story--they had to have had > help. It was a our banking system that totally sold out manufacturing > to China. > > And they did the same with technology to Bhopal India. > > Our new relationship with Pakistan will possibly change the technology > sell-out, but I wonder how we will untangle the manufacturing > sell-out. Probably the same players initiated both sell-outs: the > Kissinger/Greenspan gang. But that's all over now. > | 20463|20426|2009-05-26 23:22:43|brentswain38|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Alfredo Have you started your boat yet? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > Hellò, I'm Alfredo from Italy. > I would appreciate if you could send me the pdf of the > "Eight Sided Steel Mast". > Thanks alfredo > > > ---------- Initial Header ----------- > > From : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To : origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Cc : > Date : Sun, 24 May 2009 13:05:29 -0400 > Subject : RE: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast > > > > > > > > > Anyone else interested in the issue, please email me privately and I will > > forward the PFD document. > > > > R/Jay > > > > Andros Is., Bahamas > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Jay K. Jeffries > > Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:53 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: 'Doug' > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug, > > > > Looks like the equations didn't make it so here is the answer in a PFD > > document. > > > > Take care, > > > > Jay > > > > Andros Is., Bahamas > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 20464|22|2009-05-26 23:25:02|Ben Okopnik|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 07:13:00PM -0700, Bruce Hallman wrote: > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Ben Okopnik > > (well, it was with Suzanne, actually - she was intercepting all the > > faxes that I was sending to Phil and was incredibly, stupidly arrogant > > and rude... > > Stupidly arrogant and rude, look in a mirror. Don't you have a clue > what was going on? Considering that the incident I was talking about happened a good ten years ago, *you* certainly have no idea of what was going on - or of what's going on right here and now. Now that you've made an idiot of yourself in public by mouthing off, don't you feel stupid? In addition, your laughable attempt at buying popularity here by trading on your fake outrage has failed miserably. As a result, you've managed to come across as a complete loser, with no manners whatsoever. Meanwhile, there are almost 7 billion people on this planet who are far more interesting and worthwhile than you. Goodbye, permanently. *PLONK* [sound of email address being dropped into a killfile] -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20465|20426|2009-05-26 23:30:43|John van V.|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|"We live in Oklahoma.? We do football, guns and church." All at the same time? Bless you!!| 20466|20443|2009-05-26 23:32:29|John van V.|Re: Eight sided steel mast|There is nothing naive about globalization, except possibly believing for a second that they poor anywhere will benefit, and that the wealth derived from it will enlighten the (Mexican) rich.| 20467|22|2009-05-27 10:40:19|Bruce Hallman|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|> Considering that the incident I was talking about happened a good ten > years ago, *you* certainly have no idea of what was going on - Everyone here can see that you hold such a grudge, (for ten years!), to write spiteful and hurtful things about a grieving wife, one day after her husband dies. Pathetic.| 20468|22|2009-05-27 17:53:35|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./290STUDYSAIL-MY26-09.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : 39'-2'.Center cockpit. raised Deck " Beyond". You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./290STUDYSAIL-MY26-09.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20469|22|2009-05-28 09:31:16|rockrothwell|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|Thank you Gentlemen for the autocalibration of both the Bull-o-meter and the Wank-o-meter! When first detected, there was a fraction of a second that I was unsure of the insutrument and my instincts. Both meters were pinned and I felt sick to my stomache. However, your multiple (better than a 1/2 dozen thus far, and counting) confirmations that this guy is a Wanker of the first order are most assuring. Hopefully he will follow the example of his peer, (yes, pathetically they DO exist) Greg of Origamimajic, and finally, finally, bloody finally see clearly that he is considered a complete Bozo & laughingstock by a group of people he appears to be so obsessed with impressing, and bless us with his silence. Shane Rothwell --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman wrote: > > > Considering that the incident I was talking about happened a good ten > > years ago, *you* certainly have no idea of what was going on - > > Everyone here can see that you hold such a grudge, (for ten years!), > to write spiteful and hurtful things about a grieving wife, one day > after her husband dies. Pathetic. > | 20470|22|2009-05-28 09:44:44|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|Not sure what the previous posts relate to ,but just posting to let you know both Bull-o-meter and Wank -o-meter are both trade marks taken out by the Pain in the ass corporation. The CEO of which is a neighbour of mine, but I am sure he is branching out . Best wishes to all, Mikeafloat uk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20471|22|2009-05-28 10:54:43|Bruce Hallman|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|>> > Considering that the incident I was talking about happened a good ten >> > years ago, *you* certainly have no idea of what was going on - Ten years? But, it was fifteen years ago that Phil Bolger ceased doing business as the sole proprietor "Philip C. Bolger". Ever since, his boat design business has been "Phil Bolger and Friends", a full partnership of two designers, husband and wife. To complain that Mr. Bolger chose to work in a business partnership with his wife (who is also an accomplished boat designer), is kind of like complaining that Miles Davis expressed his musical genius within the context of the Miles Davis Quartet. It was entirely Phil Bolger's choice to let his business partner handle the annoyances of outside communications, which no doubt were demanding and distracting to his creative process. Personally, I prefer the thought of him expressing his genius on the drawing board, and not wasting his energy responding to arrogant wankers all day long. And I am guessing, once a wanker, always a wanker.| 20472|22|2009-05-28 15:48:59|lachica31|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman wrote: > to his creative process. Personally, I prefer the thought of him > expressing his genius on the drawing board, and not wasting his energy > responding to arrogant wankers all day long. And I am guessing, once > a wanker, always a wanker. I guess it takes a wanker to recognise a wanker. Now if we could just get back to boats and you peacocks could put your egos aside. That would be nice. Paul Thompson| 20473|20426|2009-05-28 17:12:53|Doug|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Hey Jay An origami barge would do the tick. :) No on the conference. Dam shame on the timing. We've passed trough there for the past two years to go see Jack Carson about our hull plans. But hopefully we'll be diving our own sub by then this year. Should be a lot more adventurous than Phil's Deep Worker. :) Remember to close the main air induction valve. Doug J --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jay K. Jeffries" wrote: > > Doug, > > It is always great to follow your various endeavors. The ROV definitely > makes sense based upon the size of your sub. I constantly assess various > design that could manage to handle a couple of extra tons involved with a > personal submersible. Very few can stand up to the mass up above the > waterline. > > > > Will we see you up at the PSUB Conference this year in Vancouver at Phil > Nuytten's facility? We are suppose to get some bottom time in his one-man > submersibles plus there is talk of putting his 4-man sub in the water also. > All we have to do is pay the crane bill. > > R/Jay > > Andros Is., Bahamas > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of djackson99@... > Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:07 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast > > Thanks Jay > > The roll speed in time with the waves makes sense.? I'll post your > explanation and equations to my web page.? I really appreciate the layman > explanation as I am sure others will. > > We actually considered taking the sub. Jack our hull designer was all about > that, but I vetoed it in favor of downsizing to an ROV.? We have to have > space to put the booty. :) > > Best of Luck > Doug > SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20474|20426|2009-05-28 17:19:48|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast|Doug, Sorry we will not have a chance to meet in person this year. Good to hear that you will finally be able to splash your sub.you sure have put a lot of work into plus a lot of innovation. R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:12 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast Hey Jay An origami barge would do the tick. :) No on the conference. Dam shame on the timing. We've passed trough there for the past two years to go see Jack Carson about our hull plans. But hopefully we'll be diving our own sub by then this year. Should be a lot more adventurous than Phil's Deep Worker. :) Remember to close the main air induction valve. Doug J --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Jay K. Jeffries" wrote: > > Doug, > > It is always great to follow your various endeavors. The ROV definitely > makes sense based upon the size of your sub. I constantly assess various > design that could manage to handle a couple of extra tons involved with a > personal submersible. Very few can stand up to the mass up above the > waterline. > > > > Will we see you up at the PSUB Conference this year in Vancouver at Phil > Nuytten's facility? We are suppose to get some bottom time in his one-man > submersibles plus there is talk of putting his 4-man sub in the water also. > All we have to do is pay the crane bill. > > R/Jay > > Andros Is., Bahamas > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of djackson99@... > Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:07 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Eight Sided Steel Mast > > Thanks Jay > > The roll speed in time with the waves makes sense.? I'll post your > explanation and equations to my web page.? I really appreciate the layman > explanation as I am sure others will. > > We actually considered taking the sub. Jack our hull designer was all about > that, but I vetoed it in favor of downsizing to an ROV.? We have to have > space to put the booty. :) > > Best of Luck > Doug > SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20475|22|2009-05-28 21:06:56|Bruce Hallman|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|>> to his creative process. Personally, I prefer the thought of him >> expressing his genius on the drawing board, and not wasting his energy >> responding to arrogant wankers all day long. And I am guessing, once >> a wanker, always a wanker. > > I guess it takes a wanker to recognise a wanker. Now if we could just get > back to boats and you peacocks could put your egos aside. That would be > nice. > > Paul Thompson Good point, I agree, lets stick to boats. It is little bit tough to snip out the boat discussion from my quoted message and then knock me for lacking boat discussion. Regardless, lets move on.| 20476|22|2009-05-28 23:43:19|John van V.|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|How does a significant bereavement such as Phil's turn into a flame fest? Only on the Internet.| 20477|22|2009-05-29 03:50:21|sae140|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John van V." wrote: > > How does a significant bereavement such as Phil's turn into a flame > fest? Only on the Internet. > My take on this is that there is a difference between 'cause' and 'trigger'. Here, Bolger's sad passing just happened to be the trigger - it could well have been the anniversary of D-Day, or North Korea's missiles, or the state of the Japanese economy ... The ultimate 'cause' of the flaming lies within the personality characteristics of some members and the conflicts these evoke in others. The trigger here just happened to be Bolger. Next week it will be something else.| 20478|20478|2009-05-29 06:32:51|denis buggy|expeimental sail plan for steel trimaran|dear all I submitted a post previously and did not receive a reply which in this group is unusual if i have broken some taboo which would be easy to do knowing what we all know please let me know . i am not a sailor and i would be grateful for any advice on the following experimental plan . the sail plan is about to be tested by adding two keel sections -- amas on either side of my Malibu sit on top canoe using aluminium ladder section as i wish to test 4 yes i said 4 unstayed rotating masts each with independent mechanism for taking advantage of low airs ( double cat sail two inner two outer )and also being able to unload two sails on one hull while using two full sails in a gale on the other hull -- side of the trimaran, as it would now require the sails to lift the centre and the outer hull from the water to capsize and this is my fulcrum -- opposing ballast to the wind ,, it also floats and it can be used as the main sailing hull if the wind changes as the centre main hull would have no masts fitted . some high tech monohulls use a tilting -- moving bulb keel to allow more sail and therefore more speed by sending the lead out on a limb on the wind side . i am proposing to use sails out on a limb out on a hull/ ama which should make it unlikely to capsize . what do you all think . the principle is not mine and has been used by Schoinning of Australia . """ RADICAL BAY YACHT "" regards Denis Buggy __,_i ._, have been away __ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20479|20478|2009-05-29 07:31:08|sae140|Re: expeimental sail plan for steel trimaran|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > > dear all > I submitted a post previously and did not receive a reply which in this group is unusual if i have broken some taboo which would be easy to do knowing what we all know please let me know . Hi Denis - your last recorded post regarding trimarans was on the 2nd Jan, 2008. Perhaps you posted to another group ? 'best, Colin| 20480|20478|2009-05-29 08:50:10|denis buggy|Re: expeimental sail plan for steel trimaran|DEAR COLIN I SUBMITTED POST 20332 ON 7-5-2009 --TITLE ---RE DRILLS AND DRILLING AND OTHER TOPICS. REGARDS DENIS BUGGY --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > > dear all > I submitted a post previously and did not receive a reply which in this group is unusual if i have broken some taboo which would be easy to do knowing what we all know please let me know . Hi Denis - your last recorded post regarding trimarans was on the 2nd Jan, 2008. Perhaps you posted to another group ? 'best, Colin Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity a.. 8New Members b.. 1New Photos c.. 2New Files Visit Your Group Give Back Yahoo! for Good Get inspired by a good cause. Y! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20481|20478|2009-05-29 10:16:01|edward_stoneuk|Re: expeimental sail plan for steel trimaran|Well Dennis, I haven't the foggiest on how well it will work, but your tank tests will give some idea and be good fun. How do you see it as being better on what has gone before? It could be a bit of a handful when you tack. Do you have any photos? I knew a chap who made a canoe out of a folded sheet of corrugated iron with a small wooden transom and front bit like a junk. He had a bamboo outrigger and paddled about in it very successfully for a weekend. Needed a lot of bailing though. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > > dear all > I submitted a post previously and did not receive a reply which in this group is unusual if i have broken some taboo which would be easy to do knowing what we all know please let me know . > i am not a sailor and i would be grateful for any advice on the following experimental plan . > > the sail plan is about to be tested by adding two keel sections -- amas on either side of my Malibu sit on top canoe using aluminium ladder section as i wish to test 4 yes i said 4 unstayed rotating masts each with independent mechanism for taking advantage of low airs ( double cat sail two inner two outer )and also being able to unload two sails on one hull while using two full sails in a gale on the other hull -- side of the trimaran, > as it would now require the sails to lift the centre and the outer hull from the water to capsize > and this is my fulcrum -- opposing ballast to the wind ,, it also floats and it can be used as the main sailing hull if the wind changes as the centre main hull would have no masts fitted . > some high tech monohulls use a tilting -- moving bulb keel to allow more sail and therefore more speed by sending the lead out on a limb on the wind side . > i am proposing to use sails out on a limb out on a hull/ ama which should make it unlikely to capsize . > what do you all think . > the principle is not mine and has been used by Schoinning of Australia . > """ RADICAL BAY YACHT "" > regards Denis Buggy | 20482|20478|2009-05-29 10:16:08|edward_stoneuk|Re: expeimental sail plan for steel trimaran|Well Dennis, I haven't the foggiest on how well it will work, but your tank tests will give some idea and be good fun. How do you see it as being better on what has gone before? It could be a bit of a handful when you tack. Do you have any photos? I knew a chap who made a canoe out of a folded sheet of corrugated iron with a small wooden transom and front bit like a junk. He had a bamboo outrigger and paddled about in it very successfully for a weekend. Needed a lot of bailing though. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > > dear all > I submitted a post previously and did not receive a reply which in this group is unusual if i have broken some taboo which would be easy to do knowing what we all know please let me know . > i am not a sailor and i would be grateful for any advice on the following experimental plan . > > the sail plan is about to be tested by adding two keel sections -- amas on either side of my Malibu sit on top canoe using aluminium ladder section as i wish to test 4 yes i said 4 unstayed rotating masts each with independent mechanism for taking advantage of low airs ( double cat sail two inner two outer )and also being able to unload two sails on one hull while using two full sails in a gale on the other hull -- side of the trimaran, > as it would now require the sails to lift the centre and the outer hull from the water to capsize > and this is my fulcrum -- opposing ballast to the wind ,, it also floats and it can be used as the main sailing hull if the wind changes as the centre main hull would have no masts fitted . > some high tech monohulls use a tilting -- moving bulb keel to allow more sail and therefore more speed by sending the lead out on a limb on the wind side . > i am proposing to use sails out on a limb out on a hull/ ama which should make it unlikely to capsize . > what do you all think . > the principle is not mine and has been used by Schoinning of Australia . > """ RADICAL BAY YACHT "" > regards Denis Buggy | 20483|20478|2009-05-29 10:16:25|edward_stoneuk|Re: expeimental sail plan for steel trimaran|Well Dennis, I haven't the foggiest on how well it will work, but your tank tests will give some idea and be good fun. How do you see it as being better on what has gone before? It could be a bit of a handful when you tack. Do you have any photos? I knew a chap who made a canoe out of a folded sheet of corrugated iron with a small wooden transom and front bit like a junk. He had a bamboo outrigger and paddled about in it very successfully for a weekend. Needed a lot of bailing though. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > > dear all > I submitted a post previously and did not receive a reply which in this group is unusual if i have broken some taboo which would be easy to do knowing what we all know please let me know . > i am not a sailor and i would be grateful for any advice on the following experimental plan . > > the sail plan is about to be tested by adding two keel sections -- amas on either side of my Malibu sit on top canoe using aluminium ladder section as i wish to test 4 yes i said 4 unstayed rotating masts each with independent mechanism for taking advantage of low airs ( double cat sail two inner two outer )and also being able to unload two sails on one hull while using two full sails in a gale on the other hull -- side of the trimaran, > as it would now require the sails to lift the centre and the outer hull from the water to capsize > and this is my fulcrum -- opposing ballast to the wind ,, it also floats and it can be used as the main sailing hull if the wind changes as the centre main hull would have no masts fitted . > some high tech monohulls use a tilting -- moving bulb keel to allow more sail and therefore more speed by sending the lead out on a limb on the wind side . > i am proposing to use sails out on a limb out on a hull/ ama which should make it unlikely to capsize . > what do you all think . > the principle is not mine and has been used by Schoinning of Australia . > """ RADICAL BAY YACHT "" > regards Denis Buggy | 20484|20478|2009-05-29 12:36:15|John van V.|Re: expeimental sail plan for steel trimaran|Me too, I would like to see pictures.| 20485|22|2009-05-29 13:41:50|John van V.|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|Well it won't be L Francis, or Howard I because they both long passed on :(| 20486|20486|2009-05-29 19:34:23|John van V.|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff?|The Marco Polo is big, 55 ft, three masted schooner, but wood :( It is a life-boat design, narrow with high sheer and whale backs at either end. His sketch is pretty good to show what he had in mind, and I photographed one out of the water near the Marine Air Terminal (where the big flying boats used to land) in NYC. Sketch: http://www.mcallen.lib.tx.us/books/circumna/c_mar1.jpg Here are the underbody pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/john.van.v/MarcoPolo My opinion is that it would work, because the origami system seems to favor double-enders. The Marco Polo is "vanilla" enough that it could be modified in many ways to suit origami construction, such as making it a junk, or twin keeler, or hard chine. The rig could be two genoas with an Asian spanker. The lines as they are are hard to beat though. Marco Polos hold many 24 hr records, as they could keep sailing through anything. I was chatting w/ JH Lean about it and he told me that there is a simulation program for folding origami boats. The offsets are available in L Francis's book "Sensible Cruising Designs"| 20487|20486|2009-05-29 20:53:49|Paul Wilson|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff?|>>>The lines as they are are hard to beat though. Marco Polos hold many 24 hr records, as they could keep sailing through anything. I hate to be a nay-sayer but I have never heard of any 24 hour records for a Marco Polo. While I would say they probably sail well, don't believe the high speeds claimed. They are very long and lean and would present very little sail area down wind and be tender to windward. I have heard reports that they roll their guts out downwind. For a 55 foot boat, they have very little room in them so resale values are usually low. There was a guy in Vancouver who tried to improve the performance of his with a taller mast and more ballast. He hired a yacht designer to design the modifications and spent a small fortune but I don't think it ever really worked and it sailed on its ear. Herreschoff was a great designer but his beamier designs like Ticonderoga set all the records, I believe. Ticonderoga was/is a work of art. http://www.dayhillfineart.com/The_Ticonderoga_of_Greenwich-Original.htm As an aside, a lot of older yacht designs showed many small sails since it was believed that a person could not handle a large sail on their own. With better materials now and slab or roller reefing, this has been disproven, and larger sails are actually, simpler, easier and cheaper, than many smaller sails, IMHO. Marco Polo's come up for sale once in awhile and quite a few have been built in metal so I am sure you could do one in origami if you want. I seem to recall an aluminum bare hull for sale, a while ago but it was pretty rough.. There is a steel one for sale in Australia right now. It looks like a nice boat, but it's not cheap. The seller has done a good write-up on it. Just search Marco Polo in www.yachtworld.com Owner's website http://johanna2.com/owner.html Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20488|20486|2009-05-30 08:58:19|John van V.|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff?|> I hate to be a nay-sayer but I have never heard of any 24 hour records for a > Marco Polo. It could be that I read about them in magazines that were headed to the trash when I was very young. (The best strategy for Internet collaboration is "faith") I am not sure what points you are trying to make, (though I can explain to you why you are trying to make them) and they are certainly not in the spirit of inquiry. It is a high performance lifeboat designed for world cruising. If you think this is not a great vessel, then you are clueless.| 20489|20489|2009-05-30 15:35:44|brentswain38|Big brother gets bigger|I just heard that the Nananimo Harbour comission is taking applications for permission to anchor in Nananimo harbour this summer, for $1 a foot. They have also declared that composting heads are illegal in Nananimo. Unless there is a substantial boycott of Nananimo this summer, this money grubbing will spread to many BC anchorages. The Canada shipping act section 220 states that it is illegal for any one to enter the living quarters of a boat that's being lived aboard without an invitation by the skipper or a search warrant. This is also covered by the Charter of rights. If they come alongside and ask questions you have no reason to answer them or even acknowledge their presence. I also heard that the mounties are having several more catamarans built , to increase the harassment of boaters in BC waters. They too are not allowed to enter a boats living quarters without permission from the skipper, or a search warant. If you give them permission to come aboard they will go thru all your personal belongings and take notes , violating any personal privacy you may value. Best not give them permission. If anyone violates your charter rights against unreasonable search and siezure, you have the right to sue them in civil court and put liens against their personal bank accounts , wages, pensions and personal assets. Brent| 20490|20489|2009-05-30 15:42:20|David Frantz|Re: Big brother gets bigger|Interesting, there seems to be no end to the money grabs so that government can support special interest groups. The bit about composting heads is really strange, so much so I have to wonder what they reasoning is. It would seem to me to be the better approach for the ecology of the planet. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On May 30, 2009, at 3:35 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I just heard that the Nananimo Harbour comission is taking > applications for permission to anchor in Nananimo harbour this > summer, for $1 a foot. > They have also declared that composting heads are illegal in Nananimo. > Unless there is a substantial boycott of Nananimo this summer, this > money grubbing will spread to many BC anchorages. > The Canada shipping act section 220 states that it is illegal for > any one to enter the living quarters of a boat that's being lived > aboard without an invitation by the skipper or a search warrant. > This is also covered by the Charter of rights. If they come > alongside and ask questions you have no reason to answer them or > even acknowledge their presence. > I also heard that the mounties are having several more catamarans > built , to increase the harassment of boaters in BC waters. They > too are not allowed to enter a boats living quarters without > permission from the skipper, or a search warant. If you give them > permission to come aboard they will go thru all your personal > belongings and take notes , violating any personal privacy you may > value. Best not give them permission. > If anyone violates your charter rights against unreasonable search > and siezure, you have the right to sue them in civil court and put > liens against their personal bank accounts , wages, pensions and > personal assets. > Brent > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20491|20486|2009-05-30 15:42:50|martin demers|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|Bill Lee's Merlin was also a long and narrow boat (68ft long by 12 ft beam) and if I remember well it broke some records for the time. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: john.van.v@... Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 08:57:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? > I hate to be a nay-sayer but I have never heard of any 24 hour records for a > Marco Polo. It could be that I read about them in magazines that were headed to the trash when I was very young. (The best strategy for Internet collaboration is "faith") I am not sure what points you are trying to make, (though I can explain to you why you are trying to make them) and they are certainly not in the spirit of inquiry. It is a high performance lifeboat designed for world cruising. If you think this is not a great vessel, then you are clueless. _________________________________________________________________ Internet explorer 8 aide à protéger la vie privée. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9655573 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20492|20486|2009-05-30 16:07:01|Paul Wilson|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff?|John, I think you are mis-reading what I am saying. There are lots of great vessels for offshore, but when you chose one, it's important to get the all the facts. There are negative things about ANY design and there are negative things about the Marco Polo. My motivation was that I didn't want you to spend years building a boat and then not be happy with it once you were done. There is too much of that. My views have nothing to do with being on the internet. If we were sitting across a table, I would say the same things to you. You obviously love the Marco Polo. Go for it. Paul > I hate to be a nay-sayer but I have never heard of any 24 hour records for a > Marco Polo. It could be that I read about them in magazines that were headed to the trash when I was very young. (The best strategy for Internet collaboration is "faith") I am not sure what points you are trying to make, (though I can explain to you why you are trying to make them) and they are certainly not in the spirit of inquiry. It is a high performance lifeboat designed for world cruising. If you think this is not a great vessel, then you are clueless. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20493|20486|2009-05-30 16:47:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|Bill Lee's Merlin was also a long and narrow boat (68ft long by 12 ft beam) and if I remember well it broke some records for the time. Martin. True. She is also very, very light with a deep keel. A fantastic design, well ahead of its time. I wonder though, why Bill Lee's later designs are all beamier than Merlin and sail well, too. I actually am a fan of narrow boats. I think they steer better, are more forgiving and I prefer a boat that will punch through a wave rather than plow into one. This is one of the reasons I like Brent's design. His 36 has a beam of 10.5 feet which is narrow compared to many, but not extreme. 12 feet on 68 (Merlin) and 10 feet on 55 (Marco Polo) is particularly extreme. If all boats were the same, it would be a boring place :). Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20494|20489|2009-05-30 19:51:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: Big brother gets bigger|On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 03:41:19PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > Interesting, there seems to be no end to the money grabs so that > government can support special interest groups. > > The bit about composting heads is really strange, so much so I have to > wonder what they reasoning is. It would seem to me to be the better > approach for the ecology of the planet. As far as I know, government regulation is _never_ about ecology, or better reasoning; it can't be, since governments that don't spend all their time and effort taking care of their prime requirement of survival (getting more votes at any cost) quickly lose their meal ticket. By the same token, most people vote their pocket, the short-term gains - not their intelligence, morality, or conscience, which are all longer-term concepts. We have, over most of this planet, created governments that survive on pandering to the lowest common denominator - since it's the mass vote that counts above all. Until we humans get smarter as a race and create a system of government that has as its prime motivator the improvement of its citizens' lives, this kind of thing is going to be universal and ever-increasing. I don't want to sound like a pessimist - the central core of my personal philosophy is that we humans _are_ smart enough to eventually overcome all obstacles, whether this ecological morass that we're in, nuclear proliferation, or vile, destructive systems of government. It's just that some days, I can't help feeling like "*WHEN* already, dammit?" -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20495|20486|2009-05-31 14:11:49|Donal Philby|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|>Bill Lee's Merlin was also a long and narrow boat (68ft long by 12 ft beam) >and if I remember well it broke some records for the time. On the other hand, I spent a day once sailing SeaWitch, a 36 foot Angleman designed gaff ketch. On board is a bronze plaque for it's 1954 first to finish win of the Transpac: 10 days. It was a record only beaten by Windward Passage (60-70 foot) ten year later. Sometimes weather, tactics, strategy and good luck make the difference. Sea Witch was a grand ride, though. Understand that Marco Polo is a motor sailer by design. Read the design comments in the book Sensible Cruising Designs. From all reports I've heard (I've seen a couple from a distance), they do that very well. The long, narrow concept has validity except for marina charges, where short, fat wins. Think the East and West coast trollers. George Buehler has a power cruising book out that is called the Troller Yacht Book. He goes into great detail about long WL, fuel efficiency and low HP. Water Line length wins in power and sail, at least at displacement (non-planing) speeds. In sail, beam wins with surfing, if that is what you want. A Kiwi friend rounded the Horn on Steinlager, spinnaker up in 50 knots of wind, hitting 30 knots boat speed. Helmsman would only last 15 minutes of concentration. But he said it was the only thing better than sex he'd ever experienced. Now that's valid use of a beamy boat. Look at the first site below for designer comments on a long lean power boat design. Look at the second for what they did with this design. Around the world via the NW Passage from Edmonton, Alberta. I have been aboard the boat, talked to the owner. Very simple. It certainly could have been adapted to an origami style design. Considering that so many cruisers motor (so I hear) when the sail driven boat speed drops below say six knots, those folks might be better served with a boat like Idlewild. Buehler has a 38 footer with a calm seas range approaching 11,000 miles. (And remember, modern sails are made of oil! When we get past peak oil there might be another look at junk rigs since they can be made to work well with most any kind of cloth. Even cedar?) http://www.georgebuehler.com/Idelwild.html http://idlewildexpedition.ca/theboat.htm donal| 20496|20496|2009-05-31 18:31:06|jhlean|M42 Wingschooner|In the file section there is a drawing of a boat called the M42? wingschooner... can anybody tell me about this boat? Is it origami?| 20497|20497|2009-06-01 00:59:28|future boat owner|Hoping to view Brentboats|Brent and/or other builder/owners My daughter and I will be traveling to Vancouver (from Edmonton) on June 14 and then on to Vancouver Island on the 15. I have the plans for a Swain 36 that I want to start building this winter and I would dearly like to view as many boats under construction or on the water as possible. We have to be back in Vancouver on the 20 of June to pick up crew and then attend our Intermediate Cruise and learn. An experience of a Swain boat actually under sail would be a real bonus but I certainly do not want to overtax the generosity of any owners we may meet, I just want to spend some time talking boats and getting a better idea of what I want to build. The learning curve is steep for an aging prairie boy and I need to understand better deck layouts, interiors, systems, etc. Any and all help will be much appreciated. Please contact me directly at garthrolsen@... or 780-919-9111 Thanks in advance Garth Future sv Wholly Chinook| 20498|20498|2009-06-01 10:52:41|mickeyolaf|Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E|I'm still trying to ascertain the best way to force oil thru a new engine prior to turning it over? I talked to the Yanmar rep who said to engage the engine stop and turn the starter for 10 seconds 3 times and the pressure would come up. I would like to to have oil everywhere inside, bearings, top end etc before I hit the starter. My knowledge of diesels is limited to Duramax and that know how is pretty skinny. I wonder if u could pump oil thru the engine if u removed the oil pressure sender and put a nipple there? Or thru the filter hoses? Or fill it up and turn it upside down(just kidding)? Anybody know the best way to do this pre-prime? There seems to be a lot of different opinions on how best to accomplish it. It would kill me to start it up dry and have to listen to the knocking etc. Would probably take a 1000 hours off the engine life and 30 years off mine. Lets see, 54 years plus 30 years equals....ahhhh don't want to go there.............| 20499|20498|2009-06-01 12:00:20|Grant Henry|Re: Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E|Back in the early sixties, Gardner had a 65 horse engine that required manual pumping to bring up oil pressure before starting. Something of a pain but the engine never ran dry for those few moments before mechanical pressure kicked in. There may be some archival documentation still around. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mickeyolaf Sent: June 1, 2009 8:53 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E I'm still trying to ascertain the best way to force oil thru a new engine prior to turning it over? I talked to the Yanmar rep who said to engage the engine stop and turn the starter for 10 seconds 3 times and the pressure would come up. I would like to to have oil everywhere inside, bearings, top end etc before I hit the starter. My knowledge of diesels is limited to Duramax and that know how is pretty skinny. I wonder if u could pump oil thru the engine if u removed the oil pressure sender and put a nipple there? Or thru the filter hoses? Or fill it up and turn it upside down(just kidding)? Anybody know the best way to do this pre-prime? There seems to be a lot of different opinions on how best to accomplish it. It would kill me to start it up dry and have to listen to the knocking etc. Would probably take a 1000 hours off the engine life and 30 years off mine. Lets see, 54 years plus 30 years equals....ahhhh don't want to go there............. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20500|20498|2009-06-01 12:38:05|Ben Okopnik|Re: Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E|On Mon, Jun 01, 2009 at 02:52:30PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > I'm still trying to ascertain the best way to force oil thru a new > engine prior to turning it over? > I talked to the Yanmar rep who said to engage the engine stop and turn > the starter for 10 seconds 3 times and the pressure would come up. Why not just fill it up with oil and turn it over by hand? Put a closed-end wrench on your output shaft and turn it through a few times, as slowly as you like. Frankly, I don't think this is all that necessary: when a factory puts an engine together, they typically slap in bits of lube in the critical places - and the Japanese are well known for that kind of persnickety attention to detail. In other words, I suspect that your Yanmar is pre-greased well enough for that initial cranking period. However, since you want to do everything you can in order to reassure yourself, let's pretend that it's completely dry. What could you do at that point? Well... Start with a low-vis oil that will penetrate everywhere as rapidly as possible. Fill right up to the top mark on the dipstick; turn the shaft a few times, then check that level again, allowing a few minutes for settling (you need to fill those oil galleries.) I'm visualizing the oil system in the average engine, and there really isn't anything horribly complicated about the paths; there can't be, or the slighest bit of crud in the system would result in things burning up in very short order. This means that just a couple of full rotations should lube everything, but feel free to swing that wrench around as many times as you want - you won't do any harm. If you're feeling _really_ edgy about it, as you seem to be, pull your preheater plugs and spritz in a little WD40, or Marvel Mystery oil, or your favorite all-natural, expeller-pressed, certified-organically-pure olive oil (should make the exhaust smell good! :); this will get oil to the top set of the piston rings that much sooner. Once you're satisfied, crank it and run it long enough to get the temperature up; then, shut it down and change the oil, looking for metal shavings and such (this *IS* a good idea with Chinese engines; as I understand it, the assemblers tend to leave minor impurities - like their lunch dishes - in there.) Refill and enjoy. Can't think of anything else - by the time the camshaft (right under your valve covers) is wet, so is half of everything else that needs to be - so I think you'll be fine. Again, though, this is mostly about comfort for you. I doubt that there's any benefit to doing this. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20501|20498|2009-06-01 17:21:43|Ray|Re: Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I'm still trying to ascertain the best way to force oil thru a new engine prior to turning it over? As others have said - the friction surfaces (bearings, pistons, lobes of cams, pushrods, rockers) SHOULD have been thoroughly coated w/assembly lube when the engine was assembled. If you still feel like you must ensure pre-lubing prior to engine start - pull off the oil-pressure sending unit, and pump oil in through it. This will still not completely fill the lifters. The valvetrain gets lubricated by oil squirting out of the top of the lifter through the pushrods as they are slightly compressed on the upstroke. I suppose you could open the compression release and turn the engine over w/a socket on a drill turning the bolt in the end of the crank snout - but, I honestly don't know that it's worth your time. In my SBC hotrods, I used to be that anal, and pulled the distributor so I could tun the oil-pump w/an old shaft on a drill until I saw oil squirting onto the rockers - but I was told by someone who's opinion I respected that I was wasting my time, and that assembly lube was fine for the 2-3 seconds it'd take to build oil pressure on the engine's first start. *DO* change the oil after a few (3-5) heat-cycles - you will have some metal in the oil as the machined parts seat in. HTH - Ray| 20502|20486|2009-06-01 17:21:43|John van V.|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|"except for marina charges, where short, fat wins." And everywhere else, if you haven't noticed! I figure you want a boat to be 50+ long to get a good turn of speed, and under 10' wide to fit on a tractor trailer (I think the standard trailer is 54') if you want to go to California w/o going past Mexico to Panama. Many boats beat the 1.3 times the sq root of the water line length equation with power boat sterns. I have never sailed one, and don't plan to, as I know that wide sterned boats tend to broach going downwind, which is death. You want a broken up sail rig for ease of handling in bad weather and tight sails for windward work. So that leaves a boat something like the Marco Polo. Docking is luxury anyway--it tends to attract drunk rich a-holes, cops, thieves and other undesirables.| 20503|20498|2009-06-01 22:58:07|mickeyolaf|Re: Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E|I'm concerned because the engine was manufactured Dec/2005. It's new but 4 years old and may have dried up inside. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > I'm still trying to ascertain the best way to force oil thru a new engine prior to turning it over? > > > As others have said - the friction surfaces (bearings, pistons, lobes of cams, pushrods, rockers) SHOULD have been thoroughly coated w/assembly lube when the engine was assembled. If you still feel like you must ensure pre-lubing prior to engine start - pull off the oil-pressure sending unit, and pump oil in through it. > > This will still not completely fill the lifters. The valvetrain gets lubricated by oil squirting out of the top of the lifter through the pushrods as they are slightly compressed on the upstroke. > > I suppose you could open the compression release and turn the engine over w/a socket on a drill turning the bolt in the end of the crank snout - but, I honestly don't know that it's worth your time. > > In my SBC hotrods, I used to be that anal, and pulled the distributor so I could tun the oil-pump w/an old shaft on a drill until I saw oil squirting onto the rockers - but I was told by someone who's opinion I respected that I was wasting my time, and that assembly lube was fine for the 2-3 seconds it'd take to build oil pressure on the engine's first start. > > *DO* change the oil after a few (3-5) heat-cycles - you will have some metal in the oil as the machined parts seat in. > > HTH - > > Ray > | 20504|20486|2009-06-02 00:06:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|On Mon, Jun 01, 2009 at 05:20:37PM -0400, John van V. wrote: > > Many boats beat the 1.3 times the sq root of the water line length > equation with power boat sterns. I have never sailed one, and don't > plan to, as I know that wide sterned boats tend to broach going > downwind, which is death. Perhaps "know" is far too strong of a word for an issue that, um, broad. I have a boat with a very wide, essentially square stern: http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi/Ulysses I have sailed her thousands of miles in almost every kind of weather short of F11/12, including weathering a strong gale in the Gulf Stream, in very short, steep seas from astern; she has never broached, or even tried to. I also invite you to note that _all_ modern ocean racers have broad, "skimming dish" sterns; I seriously doubt that they would be designed with a fatal flaw such as automatic broaching downwind. > Docking is luxury anyway--it tends to attract drunk rich a-holes, > cops, thieves and other undesirables. You have a strong point there; it's possible to argue against it, but that would be an uphill struggle. :) In the seven years that I spent cruising the Caribbean, I don't remember ever staying at a dock for longer than it took to fuel and water up, and even that was very rare (mostly, I jugged it.) I don't recall feeling like I was missing anything. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20505|20505|2009-06-02 03:08:23|jennaphillipsers|New Freebies June 02|Dear Member As a special treat for members, we have found another great page full of free-stuff you can collect INSTANTLY! There is so much to grab, its definately worth the visit. Simply click on the link below and it will take you directly to this amazing freebie page! http://groups.google.com/group/freebiepeople/web/freebies-june02 If you can't find this 'temporary' page, visit: FreebieTelegraph (dot com), and there you will find more freebies, and a link to the LATEST ones! Thank you for all your support!| 20506|20498|2009-06-02 03:14:28|denis buggy|Re: Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E|----- Original Message ----- From: mickeyolaf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 3:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E I'm still trying to ascertain the best way to force oil thru a new engine prior to turning it over? I talked to the Yanmar rep who said to engage the engine stop and turn the starter for 10 seconds 3 times and the pressure would come up. I would like to to have oil everywhere inside, bearings, top end etc before I hit the starter. LISTEN TO YANMAR --NOBODY ELSE , DO NOT SPRAY ANYTHING ANYWHERE ,AEROSOL PROPELLANTS ARE EXPLOSIVE . IF YOU ARE REALLY WORRIED TAKE OFF THE FILLER CAP AND WHEN OIL APPEARS ON THE TOP OF THE VALVE ROCKER ARM YOU HAVE OIL EVERYWHERE IT IS REQUIRED PERIOD . DO NOT LET THE STARTER HEAT UP--- 10 REVS THEN REST A FEW MOMENTS WITH BATTERY ON CHARGE AND GO AGAIN DO NOT LET BATTERY DROP BELOW 11.5 VOLTS OR YOU WILL DAMAGE THE COIL IN THE STARTER . DO NOT REMOVE OR TAMPER WITH THE YANMAR ENGINE OIL , ALL ENGINES ARE ASSEMBLED WITH GENEROUS AMOUNTS OF OIL REGARDS DENIS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20507|20498|2009-06-02 09:00:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E|On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 08:14:17AM +0100, denis buggy wrote: > > DO NOT LET THE STARTER HEAT UP--- 10 REVS THEN REST A FEW MOMENTS > WITH BATTERY ON CHARGE AND GO AGAIN DO NOT LET BATTERY DROP BELOW > 11.5 VOLTS OR YOU WILL DAMAGE THE COIL IN THE STARTER . I'm afraid that's a bit over-stated. Let me put it this way: by my estimate, nine out of ten boats and five out of ten land vehicles drop below 11.5 while starting the engine, and many of them are often at that voltage, or below, before even starting to crank. Coils in starters don't tend to fail as a result; in fact, I've never seen a failed coil in a starter, although I've seen plenty of fried starter solenoid contacts. That, mostly, happens due to wear and resulting poor contact, which in turn creates arcing, worse contact, and eventually contact failure. Low voltage _can_ contribute quite a bit to the above (specifically, via contact chatter), but coil failure would be unusual. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20508|20486|2009-06-02 10:07:10|John van V.|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|> http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi/Ulysses Certainly one of the ugliest boats I have ever seen.| 20509|20486|2009-06-02 11:08:13|Ben Okopnik|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 10:06:08AM -0400, John van V. wrote: > > http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi/Ulysses > > Certainly one of the ugliest boats I have ever seen. Thanks! Your opinion is taken for what it's worth, to the exact degree of taste you've shown in boats so far. Meanwhile, it serves me and my family in a satisfactory manner. There's a human trait worth noting here: when a fool praises something - be it a child, an idea, or a house - the general opinion of the thing praised is decreased by that fact. Sad but true. Currently, I'm trying to resist thinking that Ulysses is much prettier than it actually is... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20510|20486|2009-06-02 12:14:20|John van V.|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|> Thanks! You are the guy who trashed Phil Bolger on his final day. Now you are using various sneaky strategies to attack Herreshoff's Marco Polo, and Herreshoff with it. You are what I call an Internet Bozo Clown -- you keep getting knocked down, but bounce back up--reinforced. You believe that we, when we criticize your attacks, are attacking you. And this justifies further attacks by you. You use the typical strategies of the abuser, you mix insult with compliment. After a few interchanges with you, I assumed that you were the "it" that attacked Phil, but I had to check. Why did I have to check, even though the insult strategy was exactly the same? You have a personality type which is exactly the same in every person who has this type of personality: no personality. You are devoid of the natural human collaborative constructs. You cannot work with others to create, but you can exploit. You cannot make, but you can take, in simple terms. You are a "taker not a maker." From your comments about Phil, most people on this list instantly identified you as having some kind of disorder, as many expressed it, and one person suggested that you react to "triggers." Well, I have seen enough--anything to you is a "trigger." This conversation started as a privately, and I did not have to wonder long why. The person who asked me about the Marco Polo was nervous about abuse, and here it is, in many forms, including an insult for the American iconic boat designer, on the day he died. Actually, social scientists and psychologists who look this disorder call it narcissism, and in the cases of Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden, Adolph Hitler, and possibly the entire Bush family: it is called malignant narcissism. Missing from this list are Jews and women, I can't think of any: that's bias, the social level of this malignancy. I believe there is a greater underlying dysfunction that binds various disorders such as obsessive compulsive disorder, child abuse, control "freakism," and the many other diseases where the sufferers of these diseases actually only cause others to suffer. These diseases exist in nature, but they are rare. When higher organisms display these symptoms, usually by violently stealing others' resoures (its all about resources) they get marginalized. Most higher organisms, mostly mammals but also others such as birds, are kind in their souls and do not want to hurt, but find it necessary such as in the "hunt." The defective kleptomaniacs are run off, or marginalized, and cannot reproduce, ending the defective gene within a generation. I usually end this rant by saying that we, as humans, are so damn kind we make the defective into our leaders -- sarcastically of course. Our leaders, or in the case of Ben, wanna-be leaders, take power either through extreme violence such as Hitler and Stalin, or by stealing votes, such as the Bush family, or by really weird strategies such as Ben. How do I know so much about Ben that I can draft his draft his psychological discharge from humanity? Simple, look at the bottom of his page, he is a Linux editor, and I was a Linux admin from 1992, when it started, until 2002, when all the US tech jobs were shipped to Bhopal India. Linux is what is called a monolithic operating system. The other kind, which is nearly every other operating system is a micro-kernel. In short, the difference is that code to operate systems such as printers have to compiled into the a monolithic kernel, and the same code can be simply installed on micro-kernels. This means that it is nearly impossible to support Linux as a commercial product. In effect it is nearly completely useless to the average person. What is frustrating is that Linux is the only non-commerical open, or public domain, project available for competition to Microsoft. The Mac operating system is superficially similar to Linux as it is based on Unix, but it is a micro-kernel. This is a tremendous problem for me, because I invested most of my life in Linux expecting the Linux "community" to be able to change just as the other operating system organizations had: Microsoft, Apple. What is important here is not the technology (as important as it is), but the profound frustration I felt. Just as the US tech economy was given to the wealthy of India with the support of the Linux community (to make them wealthier and the Indian poor poorer as a side-effect of Indian inflation) a Wahhabi Saudi terrorist attacked downtown Manhattan, literally attacking an important open software meeting center at the Sybase offices in the World Trade Center -- the industry loved us. Seeing most of our city clinically depressed and suffering from panic disorder, we knew something had to be done, much research was necessary. What could make a person so defective that he would do such an evil thing -- actually directly hurting his "own" people, as downtown Manhattan was one of the most culturally open societies ever and had many Muslims in-house? Bin Laden, and his fellow Wahhabis rationalize that God will sort them out in the end, just as the American war criminals did in Viet Nam: "Kill them all, let God sort them out." There is no point in pointing out problems in Islam! The problem lies elsewhere. Two years before the attack, scientists had fortunately cracked the "nut of love:" two important neurons, spindle and mirror. These neurons allow us to feel the feelings others have, and to conceptualize the effects we have on others. Ben is defective in that he lacks these neurons, or perhaps neural constructs built from these neurons. Ben's "love" is the weird love that he shows us--that's him being friendly. We do not have to know Ben personally, just people like Ben to see this. Will Ben kill? Probably not directly, but he may kill himself and his "loved" ones by sailing that barn door out into some really bad weather. The Linux (the same fatalist frustration existed in the Perl community) does not "kill" but the community has selfishly absorbed nearly all the freely available talent into the Linux cultural monolith that occupies a social layer above the system's monolith. No competing operating system can arise because of this depletion. Google's Android you may say is competition that is not Linux. Well, if you dig you will find that it is Linux under the hood, a fact that Google hides. We are now all seriously "foobared" thanks to Ben's community as it has forced into the Microsoft camp by them, despite their derision of Microsoft. The Linux community is ultimately in bed w/ Microsoft, both organizations consist of the same kinds of organisms. But that is not important. What is important is to understand the strategies of the those who lack personality. When you are in extreme pain or anxiety you know they in action. But there are "tell-tales:" first you will sense extreme frustration, and when that happens you know you cannot win, you must back off, unless you are getting paid to "deal." Another is the typical strategy, "a little nice a little nasty," as we see in nearly all of Ben's writing. Ben's obvious lies are also a good indicator; the truth for Ben is simply enough glue to make his lies stick: that is how he absorbs the resources he cannot conceptualize or collaborate to create. Ben is a bully, but Ben (and other non-personality types) have successfully organized to show that it is the bullies who attack people like Ben, and that people like Ben, because they are intelligent and rational, are justified in causing others pain, especially the people they hurt. With this simply strategy those like Ben have successfully organized against normality by forming a very busy sub-nation nation of smelly nerds, geeks, cosmologists, astrologists, and exceptionally cruel doctors (such as Dr Mengele--just a few examples). Then there are the judges, lawyers, doctors, politicians... This is just Ben's local community, not the greater community which is far more dangerous that includes the genocidal maniacs, and this greater group has to be diagnosed and hospitalized before they kill us all. At this point I stop and wonder why Ben has not been deleted from the list. That is a problem because Ben the bully has been abusing lots on this list, including the iconic designer, someone we will all miss dearly. That insult alone should have done it. I do know this: Yahoo sucks and any group on it suffers because of this. And there is something wrong with this is group, as it tolerates bullyism, and fails to terminate Ben. Do I wish Ben harm? Of course not, though pulling his pants down is sort of fun--something that the bullies like Ben will never grok. We need Ben as research material, as he is harmless, to be able to defeat the real bastards out there. Plus I am a Christian. We live for love and forgiveness, and believe it can transform even those who cannot love, and even those are who are exceedingly guilty. Proving this principle is important to keep Christianity moving forward, as well as other compassionate religions such as Buddhism and natural tribally native religions. God loves them all. And trust me when I guess that Ben is guilty, we just don't have any way of knowing how guilty. I am starting to worry that Ben may attack Colvin.| 20511|22|2009-06-02 12:16:04|Ben Okopnik|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 07:40:16AM -0700, Bruce Hallman wrote: > > Considering that the incident I was talking about happened a good ten > > years ago, *you* certainly have no idea of what was going on - > > Everyone here can see that you hold such a grudge, (for ten years!), > to write spiteful and hurtful things about a grieving wife, one day > after her husband dies. Pathetic. I appear to have missed this piece of idiocy until now. What's with all the trolls popping their heads up now? Is it just the weather, or something in the water?... Oh well. It's just another moron for the killfile. *PLONK* -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20512|20486|2009-06-02 12:26:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 12:14:14PM -0400, John van V. wrote: > > Thanks! > > You are the guy who trashed Phil Bolger on his final day. I'm not responsible for your lack of reading comprehension. If you were actually capable of understanding English, you'd see that I said nothing negative about Bolger; in fact, what I wrote was a tribute. > Now you are using various sneaky strategies to attack Herreshoff's > Marco Polo, and Herreshoff with it. Open the window and let out the crack fumes. I haven't said anything *at all* about your beloved whatever-the-hell-it-is; I haven't even bothered to look at the links you posted. > You believe that we You, jerkwad, are not a "we" - except for your multiple-personality disorder. You're a troll. > You are devoid of the > natural human collaborative constructs. You cannot work with others > to create, but you can exploit. You cannot make, but you can take, in > simple terms. You are a "taker not a maker." [laugh] Have you noticed my .sig, you brainless prat? I run a large volunteer organization, and I've contributed a very large amount of my time to helping others - without pay, and simply for my own satisfaction in improving the world. You, on the other hand, are a loud-mouthed nothing, and your opinions count for less than whale dung. > Will Ben kill? Yes, without a doubt. `` echo john.van.v@... >> ~/Mail/blacklist '' Goodbye, you psychotic troll. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20513|20513|2009-06-02 12:47:44|Ben Okopnik|Lightning Rod|...Yep, I'm proud to serve as one. The rest of you guys should be grateful; one of you might have drawn the ire of such a psychotic. Oh, and just in case I get murdered in my bed by a schizoid: please do note his email address. The police should be able to trace him pretty easily. I'll go back to my diseased Jewish Bush-family Wahabi no-personality WTC-exploding world-destroying Linux ax-murderer Colvin-Bolger-Hereshoff trashing now... it's a little complicated (I can't make heads or tails of it, myself), but incredibly satisfying. If I do it well enough, The World Conspiracy will promote me to its Ultimate Leader. So, back to work! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20514|20513|2009-06-02 12:57:37|Ray|Re: Lightning Rod|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Ben - You seem to be smart enough to know better - don't feed the trolls. | 20515|20513|2009-06-02 13:04:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Lightning Rod|On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 04:56:47PM -0000, Ray wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > Ben - > > You seem to be smart enough to know better - don't feed the trolls. You have a point, Ray. Thanks for the reminder. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20516|22|2009-06-02 13:44:58|Bruce Hallman|Re: Phillip C Bolger's passing|> something in the water?... Oh well. It's just another moron for the > killfile. > > *PLONK* I know I promised to talk boats, but this is funny. Ben 'plonked' me into his kill file last week, and now is calling me 'another moron' and 'plonking' me again into his kill file a second time. I guess the first plonk didn't work. (Obligatory boat talk now.) Anybody else here been working with the sourceforge CAD design software Free!ship? I have been playing around with it lately and find it to be simply great at doing the expand panel calculations necessary for origami boats.| 20517|20513|2009-06-02 13:50:21|Barney|Lightning Rod|I heard you had bad breath too. B On Tue, 2009-06-02 at 12:46 -0500, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > ...Yep, I'm proud to serve as one. The rest of you guys should be > grateful; one of you might have drawn the ire of such a psychotic. > > Oh, and just in case I get murdered in my bed by a schizoid: please do > note his email address. The police should be able to trace him pretty > easily. > > I'll go back to my diseased Jewish Bush-family Wahabi no-personality > WTC-exploding world-destroying Linux ax-murderer > Colvin-Bolger-Hereshoff > trashing now... it's a little complicated (I can't make heads or tails > of it, myself), but incredibly satisfying. If I do it well enough, The > World Conspiracy will promote me to its Ultimate Leader. So, back to > work! > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > | 20518|20497|2009-06-02 14:06:19|brentswain38|Re: Hoping to view Brentboats|Garth There are several in Nanaimo. Kim's modified 26 footer at Newcastle Marina in Nanaimo and another 36 in the same marina. Viski is in the last marina south of the BC ferry terminal. Another 36 is at the Nananimo Yacht club floats. Winston's 36 is at the maritime society's marina in Ladysmith. There may be one called Panache at Maple Bay Marina at the south end of Birds eye Cove . Another called Babara Allen may be in Genoa Bay, south of Birds Eye Cove.Ocean boy is usually at the fishermans dock in Victoria. Silver Moon may also be there , or at the marina in Esquimalt across the harbour. Ken Splett has a 36 in Becher Bay. Bruce Atkey has a 31 in Sooke. Comming north, there is one 36 under construction at Independent Shipwrights in Coombs , just west of the Jumping goat Inn on the road to Port Alberni. She is somewhat hidden behing molds for FG boats. There is Dove 2 ,Winston's last 36 in Deep bay. There are several in Comox, Moon Raven , Silas Crosby, at the government dock, Lungta anchored West of all the marinas in comox, where I usually anchor my 31 when I'm in the area, and another 36 will soon be anchored ,another off second avenue in Courtenay and another 36 under construction under the power lines on headquarters road. There is one 36 being worked on east of comox . In Campbell River there are a couple , Phsyche, and Shinola. There are two up Port Hardy and Port Macneil way . There is at least one, possibly more, in the Edmonton area. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "future boat owner" wrote: > > Brent and/or other builder/owners > > My daughter and I will be traveling to Vancouver (from Edmonton) on June 14 and then on to Vancouver Island on the 15. I have the plans for a Swain 36 that I want to start building this winter and I would dearly like to view as many boats under construction or on the water as possible. We have to be back in Vancouver on the 20 of June to pick up crew and then attend our Intermediate Cruise and learn. > > An experience of a Swain boat actually under sail would be a real bonus but I certainly do not want to overtax the generosity of any owners we may meet, I just want to spend some time talking boats and getting a better idea of what I want to build. The learning curve is steep for an aging prairie boy and I need to understand better deck layouts, interiors, systems, etc. Any and all help will be much appreciated. > > Please contact me directly at garthrolsen@... or 780-919-9111 > > Thanks in advance > > Garth > > Future sv Wholly Chinook > | 20519|20498|2009-06-02 14:11:19|brentswain38|Re: Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E|With a gravity feed tank, I just open up the bleed screws until fuel comes thru. With a hand fuel pump on my Isuzu, I just have to hand pump until I hear the fuel going back into the tank thru the return line. That way, even when I run the tank dry, there is no bleeding to do, just hand pump . A friend ,who said he had to turn his engine over a long time to lift the fuel from his bilge tank, is installing a gravity feed tank to eliminate the problem on his Yanmar. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I'm concerned because the engine was manufactured Dec/2005. It's new but 4 years old and may have dried up inside. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > > > I'm still trying to ascertain the best way to force oil thru a new engine prior to turning it over? > > > > > > As others have said - the friction surfaces (bearings, pistons, lobes of cams, pushrods, rockers) SHOULD have been thoroughly coated w/assembly lube when the engine was assembled. If you still feel like you must ensure pre-lubing prior to engine start - pull off the oil-pressure sending unit, and pump oil in through it. > > > > This will still not completely fill the lifters. The valvetrain gets lubricated by oil squirting out of the top of the lifter through the pushrods as they are slightly compressed on the upstroke. > > > > I suppose you could open the compression release and turn the engine over w/a socket on a drill turning the bolt in the end of the crank snout - but, I honestly don't know that it's worth your time. > > > > In my SBC hotrods, I used to be that anal, and pulled the distributor so I could tun the oil-pump w/an old shaft on a drill until I saw oil squirting onto the rockers - but I was told by someone who's opinion I respected that I was wasting my time, and that assembly lube was fine for the 2-3 seconds it'd take to build oil pressure on the engine's first start. > > > > *DO* change the oil after a few (3-5) heat-cycles - you will have some metal in the oil as the machined parts seat in. > > > > HTH - > > > > Ray > > > | 20520|20486|2009-06-02 14:16:36|brentswain38|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|There are soap operas called "Hospital", "Dallas" , etc . Maybe a soap opera called "Marina' would be accurate in describing the atmosphere in Marinas. No , one is not missing much by staying out of Marinas. They would have to pay me to tie up in one. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 01, 2009 at 05:20:37PM -0400, John van V. wrote: > > > > Many boats beat the 1.3 times the sq root of the water line length > > equation with power boat sterns. I have never sailed one, and don't > > plan to, as I know that wide sterned boats tend to broach going > > downwind, which is death. > > Perhaps "know" is far too strong of a word for an issue that, um, broad. > I have a boat with a very wide, essentially square stern: > > http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi/Ulysses > > I have sailed her thousands of miles in almost every kind of weather > short of F11/12, including weathering a strong gale in the Gulf Stream, > in very short, steep seas from astern; she has never broached, or even > tried to. I also invite you to note that _all_ modern ocean racers have > broad, "skimming dish" sterns; I seriously doubt that they would be > designed with a fatal flaw such as automatic broaching downwind. > > > Docking is luxury anyway--it tends to attract drunk rich a-holes, > > cops, thieves and other undesirables. > > You have a strong point there; it's possible to argue against it, but > that would be an uphill struggle. :) In the seven years that I spent > cruising the Caribbean, I don't remember ever staying at a dock for > longer than it took to fuel and water up, and even that was very rare > (mostly, I jugged it.) I don't recall feeling like I was missing > anything. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20521|20513|2009-06-02 14:23:07|brentswain38|Re: Lightning Rod|I get that on other sites whenever I challenge the "Be reasonable and do it the hard and expensive way" religion. I am flattered. If no one did it , I'd feel I was one of them, and that would be truly insulting. The contempt of assholes is the sincerest form of flattery, because, by their contempt , they are stating that you are not one of them. To have never have been challenged, is to never have challenged. What a wimpy way to live. If we all did that we would still be living in caves and , god forbid, be building boats over frames. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > ...Yep, I'm proud to serve as one. The rest of you guys should be > grateful; one of you might have drawn the ire of such a psychotic. > > Oh, and just in case I get murdered in my bed by a schizoid: please do > note his email address. The police should be able to trace him pretty > easily. > > I'll go back to my diseased Jewish Bush-family Wahabi no-personality > WTC-exploding world-destroying Linux ax-murderer Colvin-Bolger-Hereshoff > trashing now... it's a little complicated (I can't make heads or tails > of it, myself), but incredibly satisfying. If I do it well enough, The > World Conspiracy will promote me to its Ultimate Leader. So, back to > work! > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20522|20489|2009-06-02 14:27:10|brentswain38|Re: Big brother gets bigger|Their resoning is to clear out all low income boaters so they wont in any way incovenience the first class citizens, those with a lot of money. What they are saying is second class boater Brent , should be forced of his boat ,and into the ranks of the homeless, so first class citizen John , can a have the harbour to himself and other first class boaters , defined as those who can afford exorbitant marina fees the rest of the year. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 03:41:19PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > Interesting, there seems to be no end to the money grabs so that > > government can support special interest groups. > > > > The bit about composting heads is really strange, so much so I have to > > wonder what they reasoning is. It would seem to me to be the better > > approach for the ecology of the planet. > > As far as I know, government regulation is _never_ about ecology, or > better reasoning; it can't be, since governments that don't spend all > their time and effort taking care of their prime requirement of survival > (getting more votes at any cost) quickly lose their meal ticket. By the > same token, most people vote their pocket, the short-term gains - not > their intelligence, morality, or conscience, which are all longer-term > concepts. > > We have, over most of this planet, created governments that survive on > pandering to the lowest common denominator - since it's the mass vote > that counts above all. Until we humans get smarter as a race and create > a system of government that has as its prime motivator the improvement > of its citizens' lives, this kind of thing is going to be universal and > ever-increasing. > > I don't want to sound like a pessimist - the central core of my personal > philosophy is that we humans _are_ smart enough to eventually overcome > all obstacles, whether this ecological morass that we're in, nuclear > proliferation, or vile, destructive systems of government. It's just > that some days, I can't help feeling like "*WHEN* already, dammit?" > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20523|20489|2009-06-02 15:16:46|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Big brother gets bigger|Agreed. Although, like You gentlemen, I find this unfortunate and distasteful, the trend is alive and well in Europe as well. In Spain, they just acted a compulsory boat tax of 10% on top of sales tax of 16%. A new boat (registration compulsory) thus has 16% + 10% of taxes. ;[ Govmnt eejits are alive and well. As an aside, in Finland there are about 400k boats (pop 5 million). In Spain, about 30 k (pop 40 million, and lots of great coastline). Over here, they are serious about keeping boating only for rich people. A small slip is 120.000€, or 150.000$ (10m sailboat size) or monthly about 3-400€ rental. Crazy, huh ? brentswain38 wrote: > > > Their resoning is to clear out all low income boaters so they wont in > any way incovenience the first class citizens, those with a lot of > money. What they are saying is second class boater Brent , should be > forced of his boat ,and into the ranks of the homeless, so first class > citizen John , can a have the harbour to himself and other first class > boaters , defined as those who can afford exorbitant marina fees the > rest of the year. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 03:41:19PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > Interesting, there seems to be no end to the money grabs so that > > > government can support special interest groups. > > > > > > The bit about composting heads is really strange, so much so I > have to > > > wonder what they reasoning is. It would seem to me to be the better > > > approach for the ecology of the planet. > > > > As far as I know, government regulation is _never_ about ecology, or > > better reasoning; it can't be, since governments that don't spend all > > their time and effort taking care of their prime requirement of survival > > (getting more votes at any cost) quickly lose their meal ticket. By the > > same token, most people vote their pocket, the short-term gains - not > > their intelligence, morality, or conscience, which are all longer-term > > concepts. > > > > We have, over most of this planet, created governments that survive on > > pandering to the lowest common denominator - since it's the mass vote > > that counts above all. Until we humans get smarter as a race and create > > a system of government that has as its prime motivator the improvement > > of its citizens' lives, this kind of thing is going to be universal and > > ever-increasing. > > > > I don't want to sound like a pessimist - the central core of my personal > > philosophy is that we humans _are_ smart enough to eventually overcome > > all obstacles, whether this ecological morass that we're in, nuclear > > proliferation, or vile, destructive systems of government. It's just > > that some days, I can't help feeling like "*WHEN* already, dammit?" > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 20524|22|2009-06-02 15:25:19|Paul Wilson|Freeship|>>>>(Obligatory boat talk now.) Anybody else here been working with the sourceforge CAD design software Free!ship? I have been playing around with it lately and find it to be simply great at doing the expand panel calculations necessary for origami boats.Bruce Hallman wrote: Hi Bruce, Note that I changed the subject header. :). Yup, I love Freeship and have recommended it a couple of times. Its a fantastic program for unfolding plates and a real time saver. I started using Hulls from Carlson Design (an easy, great program) and then later went into Freeship when I wanted to do more complicated models. I now use the pay version Delftship but Freeship does what most people want. I think I have seen your name on the Freeship group a few times. Cheers, Paul| 20525|20489|2009-06-02 15:40:38|David Frantz|Re: Big brother gets bigger|The feeling I got was that this is directed at you specifically. Of course proving such is another matter altogether. I tend to agree that there is a mentality afloat that says you must be wealthy if you have a boat. This there is little embarassment in taxing the hell out of boat owners. Combine that with the current mentality that taxing the hell out of people in general is acceptable and you end up with the workings of a revolution on your hands. North America is in a sad state right now with the current snow job administrations. They are unfortunately just a bit more disingenous than the last. It is all about the people on power maintaining power. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 2, 2009, at 2:26 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Their resoning is to clear out all low income boaters so they wont > in any way incovenience the first class citizens, those with a lot > of money. What they are saying is second class boater Brent , should > be forced of his boat ,and into the ranks of the homeless, so first > class citizen John , can a have the harbour to himself and other > first class boaters , defined as those who can afford exorbitant > marina fees the rest of the year. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: >> >> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 03:41:19PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: >>> Interesting, there seems to be no end to the money grabs so that >>> government can support special interest groups. >>> >>> The bit about composting heads is really strange, so much so I >>> have to >>> wonder what they reasoning is. It would seem to me to be the >>> better >>> approach for the ecology of the planet. >> >> As far as I know, government regulation is _never_ about ecology, or >> better reasoning; it can't be, since governments that don't spend all >> their time and effort taking care of their prime requirement of >> survival >> (getting more votes at any cost) quickly lose their meal ticket. By >> the >> same token, most people vote their pocket, the short-term gains - not >> their intelligence, morality, or conscience, which are all longer- >> term >> concepts. >> >> We have, over most of this planet, created governments that survive >> on >> pandering to the lowest common denominator - since it's the mass vote >> that counts above all. Until we humans get smarter as a race and >> create >> a system of government that has as its prime motivator the >> improvement >> of its citizens' lives, this kind of thing is going to be universal >> and >> ever-increasing. >> >> I don't want to sound like a pessimist - the central core of my >> personal >> philosophy is that we humans _are_ smart enough to eventually >> overcome >> all obstacles, whether this ecological morass that we're in, nuclear >> proliferation, or vile, destructive systems of government. It's just >> that some days, I can't help feeling like "*WHEN* already, dammit?" >> >> >> -- >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET >> * >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20526|20526|2009-06-02 15:43:55|Carl Volkwein|wanting a prebuilt steel hull|Dear group,   I want to build a steel hulled boat, but don't know if I have the time or patince to build the whole thing,   Does anyone know where I could get a lifeboat, you know, like the kind the Titanic didn't have enough of? Like every ship in the world used to carry in davits. Iknow a lot of those ships were scraped, what happened to the lifeboats? Thanks carlvolkwein [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20527|20526|2009-06-02 18:44:42|Paul Wilson|Re: wanting a prebuilt steel hull|I have seen them on beaches and slums in India and Bangladesh. I believe the ships get scrapped there as well as some spots in Africa. The ones I have seen are more likely to get used as a shelter, than anything else. Performance is such that the local fishermen won't us them since time is money in the third world just like anywhere else. Just about all the ones I have seen are fiberglass and the smaller ones wouldn't be deep enough to get standing headroom unless you had a high cabin top. The larger ones are completely enclosed and would have a lot of windage. I think you would be better off with a used boat off something like Ebay, Yachtworld or Trademe in NZ if you don't really want to build one. Prices keep coming down but I would never buy a boat sight unseen since they always look great in the pictures. If you are thinking of building, I don't think (correction, I know) you can beat Brent's prices or build time. Performance is good and he has everything figured out. Good luck, Paul >>> I want to build a steel hulled boat, but don't know if I have the time or patince to build the whole thing, Does anyone know where I could get a lifeboat, you know, like the kind the Titanic didn't have enough of? Like every ship in the world used to carry in davits. Iknow a lot of those ships were scraped, what happened to the lifeboats? Thanks carlvolkwein| 20528|20526|2009-06-02 19:09:08|brentswain38|Re: wanting a prebuilt steel hull|Timo once called me up asking where he could get a hull. I told him to buy a load of steel, hire me to help him pull it together, and in less than three weeks, less time than it takes to find a hull , negotiate a price and move it, he would have a hull. He bought he load of steel and less than three wekds later he had his hull. He is now cruising New Guinea. The last 26 I did took about 21 days to build the hull, decks, cabin, cockpit , keels, rudder , skeg, lifelines ,handrails,cleats, mast step , etc , basically all the metal work. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Dear group, > > I want to build a steel hulled boat, but don't know if I have the time or patince > to build the whole thing, > Does anyone know where I could get a lifeboat, you know, like the kind the Titanic didn't have enough of? Like every ship in the world used to carry in davits. Iknow a lot of those ships were scraped, what happened to the lifeboats? Thanks > > > carlvolkwein > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20529|20489|2009-06-02 19:17:20|brentswain38|Re: Big brother gets bigger|The elitist BC premier just gave himself a 53% wage rise, and guess what. He got re-eletced, sending a clear message to politicoes everywhere that they can give themselves a 53% wage rise andd it's OK with voters. The result? Surry politicoes just gave themselves a 20% wage rise, knowing that that too would be OK with the people who are asked to give up freedoms to pay for it. People will support the targeting of people who live lifestyles they may someday wish to have the option of living, then be totally confused if it has been ruled out by the time they get there. I've been told that Brasil has such strict rules against importing boats that the only locally built boats available there are total pieces of shit. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > The feeling I got was that this is directed at you specifically. Of > course proving such is another matter altogether. > > I tend to agree that there is a mentality afloat that says you must be > wealthy if you have a boat. This there is little embarassment in > taxing the hell out of boat owners. Combine that with the current > mentality that taxing the hell out of people in general is acceptable > and you end up with the workings of a revolution on your hands. > > North America is in a sad state right now with the current snow job > administrations. They are unfortunately just a bit more disingenous > than the last. It is all about the people on power maintaining power. > > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jun 2, 2009, at 2:26 PM, brentswain38 > wrote: > > > Their resoning is to clear out all low income boaters so they wont > > in any way incovenience the first class citizens, those with a lot > > of money. What they are saying is second class boater Brent , should > > be forced of his boat ,and into the ranks of the homeless, so first > > class citizen John , can a have the harbour to himself and other > > first class boaters , defined as those who can afford exorbitant > > marina fees the rest of the year. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > >> > >> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 03:41:19PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > >>> Interesting, there seems to be no end to the money grabs so that > >>> government can support special interest groups. > >>> > >>> The bit about composting heads is really strange, so much so I > >>> have to > >>> wonder what they reasoning is. It would seem to me to be the > >>> better > >>> approach for the ecology of the planet. > >> > >> As far as I know, government regulation is _never_ about ecology, or > >> better reasoning; it can't be, since governments that don't spend all > >> their time and effort taking care of their prime requirement of > >> survival > >> (getting more votes at any cost) quickly lose their meal ticket. By > >> the > >> same token, most people vote their pocket, the short-term gains - not > >> their intelligence, morality, or conscience, which are all longer- > >> term > >> concepts. > >> > >> We have, over most of this planet, created governments that survive > >> on > >> pandering to the lowest common denominator - since it's the mass vote > >> that counts above all. Until we humans get smarter as a race and > >> create > >> a system of government that has as its prime motivator the > >> improvement > >> of its citizens' lives, this kind of thing is going to be universal > >> and > >> ever-increasing. > >> > >> I don't want to sound like a pessimist - the central core of my > >> personal > >> philosophy is that we humans _are_ smart enough to eventually > >> overcome > >> all obstacles, whether this ecological morass that we're in, nuclear > >> proliferation, or vile, destructive systems of government. It's just > >> that some days, I can't help feeling like "*WHEN* already, dammit?" > >> > >> > >> -- > >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > >> * > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 20530|20526|2009-06-02 20:16:35|Paul Wilson|Re: wanting a prebuilt steel hull|Correction.....meant to say I know you can't beat Brent's prices.... I need to read twice, post once :). Paul Wilson wrote: > > > I have seen them on beaches and slums in India and Bangladesh. I > believe the ships get scrapped there as well as some spots in Africa. > The ones I have seen are more likely to get used as a shelter, than > anything else. Performance is such that the local fishermen won't us > them since time is money in the third world just like anywhere else. > Just about all the ones I have seen are fiberglass and the smaller ones > wouldn't be deep enough to get standing headroom unless you had a high > cabin top. The larger ones are completely enclosed and would have a > lot of windage. I think you would be better off with a used boat off > something like Ebay, Yachtworld or Trademe in NZ if you don't really > want to build one. Prices keep coming down but I would never buy a boat > sight unseen since they always look great in the pictures. If you are > thinking of building, I don't think (correction, I know) you can beat > Brent's prices or build time. Performance is good and he has everything > figured out. > > Good luck, Paul > > >>> I want to build a steel hulled boat, but don't know if I have the > time or patince > to build the whole thing, > Does anyone know where I could get a lifeboat, you know, like the kind > the Titanic didn't have enough of? Like every ship in the world used to > carry in davits. Iknow a lot of those ships were scraped, what happened > to the lifeboats? Thanks > > carlvolkwein > > | 20531|20489|2009-06-02 20:19:43|David Frantz|Re: Big brother gets bigger|Not to pull the thread further off track but I've had the good fotune/ misfortune to travel to Brazil for work. They have or did have the same restrictive policies for the import of computers, machine tools and just about any other piece of capital. As you noted much of that produced in Brazil stuff is junk. It's sad but the very policies that are suppose to employ the masses keeps Brazil very backwards and unproductive. On the otherhand I think they have some of the best food in the world. Outside of that the need to learn to compete with the outside world. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 2, 2009, at 7:17 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > The elitist BC premier just gave himself a 53% wage rise, and guess > what. He got re-eletced, sending a clear message to politicoes > everywhere that they can give themselves a 53% wage rise andd it's > OK with voters. The result? Surry politicoes just gave themselves a > 20% wage rise, knowing that that too would be OK with the people who > are asked to give up freedoms to pay for it. > People will support the targeting of people who live lifestyles they > may someday wish to have the option of living, then be totally > confused if it has been ruled out by the time they get there. > I've been told that Brasil has such strict rules against importing > boats that the only locally built boats available there are total > pieces of shit. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > wrote: >> >> The feeling I got was that this is directed at you specifically. Of >> course proving such is another matter altogether. >> >> I tend to agree that there is a mentality afloat that says you must >> be >> wealthy if you have a boat. This there is little embarassment in >> taxing the hell out of boat owners. Combine that with the current >> mentality that taxing the hell out of people in general is acceptable >> and you end up with the workings of a revolution on your hands. >> >> North America is in a sad state right now with the current snow job >> administrations. They are unfortunately just a bit more disingenous >> than the last. It is all about the people on power maintaining >> power. >> >> >> >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Jun 2, 2009, at 2:26 PM, brentswain38 >> wrote: >> >>> Their resoning is to clear out all low income boaters so they wont >>> in any way incovenience the first class citizens, those with a lot >>> of money. What they are saying is second class boater Brent , should >>> be forced of his boat ,and into the ranks of the homeless, so first >>> class citizen John , can a have the harbour to himself and other >>> first class boaters , defined as those who can afford exorbitant >>> marina fees the rest of the year. >>> Brent >>> >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 03:41:19PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: >>>>> Interesting, there seems to be no end to the money grabs so that >>>>> government can support special interest groups. >>>>> >>>>> The bit about composting heads is really strange, so much so I >>>>> have to >>>>> wonder what they reasoning is. It would seem to me to be the >>>>> better >>>>> approach for the ecology of the planet. >>>> >>>> As far as I know, government regulation is _never_ about ecology, >>>> or >>>> better reasoning; it can't be, since governments that don't spend >>>> all >>>> their time and effort taking care of their prime requirement of >>>> survival >>>> (getting more votes at any cost) quickly lose their meal ticket. By >>>> the >>>> same token, most people vote their pocket, the short-term gains - >>>> not >>>> their intelligence, morality, or conscience, which are all longer- >>>> term >>>> concepts. >>>> >>>> We have, over most of this planet, created governments that survive >>>> on >>>> pandering to the lowest common denominator - since it's the mass >>>> vote >>>> that counts above all. Until we humans get smarter as a race and >>>> create >>>> a system of government that has as its prime motivator the >>>> improvement >>>> of its citizens' lives, this kind of thing is going to be universal >>>> and >>>> ever-increasing. >>>> >>>> I don't want to sound like a pessimist - the central core of my >>>> personal >>>> philosophy is that we humans _are_ smart enough to eventually >>>> overcome >>>> all obstacles, whether this ecological morass that we're in, >>>> nuclear >>>> proliferation, or vile, destructive systems of government. It's >>>> just >>>> that some days, I can't help feeling like "*WHEN* already, dammit?" >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET >>>> * >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>> unsubscribe@... >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20532|20486|2009-06-02 21:10:54|theboilerflue|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|You know i was thinking that i could create a reality TV show out of this list - it would pay for my boat, but the producers said no amount of suductive camera angles and suspensful comentary of a bunch of bearded old sea dogs (possibly overweight) sitting in front of there computers argueing, would hold any ratings so i abandoned the idea. I enjoy it however, certainly keeps me checking my email regularily. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There are soap operas called "Hospital", "Dallas" , etc . Maybe a soap opera called "Marina' would be accurate in describing the atmosphere in Marinas. No , one is not missing much by staying out of Marinas. They would have to pay me to tie up in one. > Brent | 20533|20533|2009-06-03 06:08:44|ANDREW AIREY|Big Brother gets bigger|If it's any consolation our current administration in the UK - and much of the political class - seems to be self destructing over fraudulent expenses claims.Although we probably won't get a general election for another 12 months - we don't have fixed term elections and another 12 months is as long as they can hang on for - the sooner we can get rid of this lot the better.I know you like Tony Blair over there - you're paying the bent bastard enough on the lecture circuit - his New Labour administration - now headed by Gordon Brown,has been introducing social control policies which would make the former East German Stasi look good. cheers Andy Airey Ps Don't knock everything Brazilian.Their mild steel plate - at least as judged by machineability - is as good as ours,and far superior to some French crap I was once issued with Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 20534|20534|2009-06-03 13:38:05|bufalowbob1939|rust in steel boats|I have returned from 3 summers crusing the French and Dutch canels. The Dutch build some verry nice metal boats. I am concitering building a boat that would be sutable for the canels but also as a costal cruser in salt water. This bring up the issue of rust. The English just make there canel boats out of 19mm steel and feel that they will die before it needs re plating or spray the inside with foam to act as a insulater and help with the condesation. The French use alumanum so painting the boat is not an issue. The Dutch steel boats use epoxie or zinc primer on there steel. I am wondering what experance people have had with foam and some of the zinc epoxies. If you wounder why I would think about building a boat in the USA and then shiping it to the EU its about getting thing done, in France geting thing done is like watching paint dry. The quality of wood is not acceptable and the VAT will kill you. Any first hand experance with any of the above would be helpfull. Thanks| 20535|20498|2009-06-03 15:15:25|edward_stoneuk|Re: Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E|Hi Mickey, I agree with Dennis. WD40 is a very thin lubricant and would tend to dilute and wash off any oil. Assuming the engine is not seized I would turn it over on the starter with the stop out so that it doesn't start. That way there is no load on the bearings, which unless someone has washed out the oil will still have oil on them. On the starte rather than by hand the oil pressure will build up quicker. That said its condition will depend on how and where it was stored. Is the oil in it storage oil or regular engine oil. Were the inlets and outlets sealed to prevent corrosion on the valve seats and stems. I bought a 10 year old ships lifeboat engine. We stripped it down and my ex diesel mechanic friend said it gad only done about 100 hours. Because it had been in the lifeboat all its life one piston, where a valve had been open was corroded so we replced that and re-sleeved the cylinder, renewed all the piston rings and timing belts and the jockey pulleys. We also fitted new injectors. Regards, Ted| 20536|20526|2009-06-03 15:18:42|sae140|Re: wanting a prebuilt steel hull|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Does anyone know where I could get a lifeboat, you know, like the kind the Titanic didn't have enough of? Like every ship in the world used to carry in davits. Iknow a lot of those ships were scraped, what happened to the lifeboats? Thanks > > carlvolkwein Hi Carl - the only ones I've seen in the last couple of years were of galvanised steel/ riveted construction. That may be a fine method of construction for a boat designed to spend it's life in davits, but after someone has kept them in the water for several years, the galv wears thin and the rivets start leaking. I'd suggest grp if you want to go down the lifeboat route, or build from plate if you really want steel. Colin| 20537|20534|2009-06-03 15:42:40|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: rust in steel boats|Hi, for the last 10 years I have lived on a narrowboat which was 11 years old when I bought it.The base plate is 1/2" which is the norm.. Sides are 5/16" ,the rest is a mixture of 5/16" or 3/16 plate. The original insulation was rockwell roof fibre, having done various alteration to internal linings I decided to use fire retardant polystyrene.Easy to fit and the shape of the boat lends itself to this. If looking for value for money some yards in the UK are buying shells from Poland and then fitting them out. As to the sea worthiness of a narrow boat , they have crossed the English channel, but it would be a braver man than me to attempt that. Good luck with you ideas . Mikeafloat uk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20538|20486|2009-06-03 16:24:53|audeojude|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|Um wow!!!!.. I know that Ben can be a bit abrasive with his bluntness once in a while but I have always found him to be decent man both on the Internet where I originally met him and in person. As a matter of fact my fiance' and I very much enjoyed his company last night sitting on his boat in the harbor talking boats and linux with him and his wife. A nicer couple you will not find with a beautiful young son. They live the life on their boat that most of us just dream of while we pay the mortgage on the house and scurry to work every day. They actually got off their butts and did it. I loved his boat. It is a very functional steel hull with room for a family, ketch rig with both masts in tabernacles that he can raise and lower himself, and a custom pilothouse over the center cockpit of his design that left me taking mental notes on ideas I would love to have on a boat of mine. John, You seriously need to go sailing. Please go back and read what you wrote. It was a long angry diatribe against ben, linux, india, Microsoft, google, yahoo, etc.. with you ending by claiming the mantle of Christianity. A less christ like letter would be hard to imagine. If you really think all of that about ben then please pray for him. To everyone on the list. It is getting really discouraging reading all these angry comments back and forth. There are people that are opinionated, that hold beliefs in life and in boats that differ from other individuals. When they express those differences it doesn't mean that you need to jump down their throats. If you wish to argue the point you can do it without attacking them. Even then at a certain point you need to move on to the next thing and just drop it.. we very seldom ever change other peoples minds when they are already made up. To be honest I don't want everyone to have the same opinion and beliefs. The only thing in common I would like everyone to have is to respect other peoples right to be different than you or to hold a different opinion than you. When you most feel the need to jump down someones throat is the time you most need to pause and ask yourself that if by doing are you just becoming a part of the problem rather than contributing to a solution. most of the time in the flame wars the solution is to just not respond and let it die. One persons inflammatory statement that everyone just ignores is a forgettable incident as opposed to a multi-person hate filled war of words that just drags on to no purpose. we have a handful of people on this list that have very iconic view points starting with the leader of the pack for this particular forum our own Brent Swain. I have found that for the most part these people tend to have some of the most innovative ideas. You might not like them but they are thinking outside the box and in the end that is why most of us are here. Along with that innovation and originality they mostly also hold strong non-traditional views on life, politics, religion etc... These areas leak through onto the boat building discussions on a fairly regular basis. We aren't really here on this list to talk about those things. As long as everyone is polite about it they can be informative and interesting but as soon as someone gets offended or angry it always seems to turn bad with many of us contributing to the negativity. I would make a suggestion for all of us.. We are here to talk boats. If during this conversation someone says something that makes you angry, about boats or off topic subjects, take a deep breath or take a break before you reply. If you can't make a reply that isn't angry then maybe just don't reply. If you ignore a stupid comment it will just die. If you feed negative energy into the situation it just breeds more negativity and grows. So, lets just talk boats... and practice a more positive attitude. Scott Carle| 20539|20486|2009-06-03 17:00:22|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Flame stop|Scott Carle, Well spoken! Rgds/Leif __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4128 (20090603) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com| 20540|20533|2009-06-03 17:16:48|brentswain38|Re: Big Brother gets bigger|Our guys get away with that ( like giving themselves a 53% wage rise) and still get voted in. There has been considerable interest in building my boats in Brasil, where building your own is the only way to get a good boat there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > If it's any consolation our current administration in the UK - and much of the political class - seems to be self destructing over fraudulent expenses claims.Although we probably won't get a general election for another 12 months - we don't have fixed term elections and another 12 months is as long as they can hang on for - the sooner we can get rid of this lot the better.I know you like Tony Blair over there - you're paying the bent bastard enough on the lecture circuit - his New Labour administration - now headed by Gordon Brown,has been introducing social control policies which would make the former East German Stasi look good. > cheers > Andy Airey > Ps Don't knock everything Brazilian.Their mild steel plate - at least as judged by machineability - is as good as ours,and far superior to some French crap I was once issued with > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 20541|20534|2009-06-03 17:35:43|brentswain38|Re: rust in steel boats|For my current boat ,I bought the steel from the supplier wheelabraded and priimed with zinc epoxy. After finishing the steel work, after rinsing it down with vinegar and TSP, then hosing it off and letting it dry, I covered this with 5 coats of epoxy tar above the waterline, four coats on deck and 3 inside. I should have put two below the waterline. After 25 years most of the paint is as good as the day I put it on, except where it is chipped. You can reduce the maintenance 80% if you use stainless trim on all outside corners. Paint often chips on outside corners, rarely on flat surfaces. On the US west coast, friends started looking for steel boats in California where they were rare. The further north they got the more common and better built were thet steel boats . When they got to BC they saw lots of them, many very well built. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bufalowbob1939" wrote: > > I have returned from 3 summers crusing the French and Dutch canels. The Dutch build some verry nice metal boats. I am concitering building a boat that would be sutable for the canels but also as a costal cruser in salt water. This bring up the issue of rust. The English just make there canel boats out of 19mm steel and feel that they will die before it needs re plating or spray the inside with foam to act as a insulater and help with the condesation. The French use alumanum so painting the boat is not an issue. The Dutch steel boats use epoxie or zinc primer on there steel. I am wondering what experance people have had with foam and some of the zinc epoxies. If you wounder why I would think about building a boat in the USA and then shiping it to the EU its about getting thing done, in France geting thing done is like watching paint dry. The quality of wood is not acceptable and the VAT will kill you. > > Any first hand experance with any of the above would be helpfull. > Thanks > | 20542|20489|2009-06-03 17:48:21|Gary Prebble|Re: Big brother gets bigger|I am anchored in Nanaimo Harbour right now. So far no one has hassled me. I am now going over to the wharfinger office and get the rules so I know first hand. The prawn fishing fleet is also at dockside right downtown. The water is frequently filled with sludge and oily bilge discharge just a few feet from their office... the prawners are not hassled for it. Money talks and special interest groups (corporations)go for the dough. I know some of the long time anchored out folk have paid up but I did hear a few will not pay and wait and see what happens. Brent, your boycott will not influence anyone (affluent yachties) that visits these parts unfortunately. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just heard that the Nananimo Harbour comission is taking applications for permission to anchor in Nananimo harbour this summer, for $1 a foot. > They have also declared that composting heads are illegal in Nananimo. > Unless there is a substantial boycott of Nananimo this summer, this money grubbing will spread to many BC anchorages. > The Canada shipping act section 220 states that it is illegal for any one to enter the living quarters of a boat that's being lived aboard without an invitation by the skipper or a search warrant. This is also covered by the Charter of rights. If they come alongside and ask questions you have no reason to answer them or even acknowledge their presence. > I also heard that the mounties are having several more catamarans built , to increase the harassment of boaters in BC waters. They too are not allowed to enter a boats living quarters without permission from the skipper, or a search warant. If you give them permission to come aboard they will go thru all your personal belongings and take notes , violating any personal privacy you may value. Best not give them permission. > If anyone violates your charter rights against unreasonable search and siezure, you have the right to sue them in civil court and put liens against their personal bank accounts , wages, pensions and personal assets. > Brent > | 20543|20489|2009-06-03 18:02:16|Gary Prebble|Re: Big brother gets bigger|BC voters turned out in force this past provincial election.... 48%. The BC population is just too well off to give a shit even letting a prick and criminal like Campbell can get re-elected. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The elitist BC premier just gave himself a 53% wage rise, and guess what. He got re-eletced, sending a clear message to politicoes everywhere that they can give themselves a 53% wage rise andd it's OK with voters. The result? Surry politicoes just gave themselves a 20% wage rise, knowing that that too would be OK with the people who are asked to give up freedoms to pay for it. > People will support the targeting of people who live lifestyles they may someday wish to have the option of living, then be totally confused if it has been ruled out by the time they get there. > I've been told that Brasil has such strict rules against importing boats that the only locally built boats available there are total pieces of shit. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > > > The feeling I got was that this is directed at you specifically. Of > > course proving such is another matter altogether. > > > > I tend to agree that there is a mentality afloat that says you must be > > wealthy if you have a boat. This there is little embarassment in > > taxing the hell out of boat owners. Combine that with the current > > mentality that taxing the hell out of people in general is acceptable > > and you end up with the workings of a revolution on your hands. > > > > North America is in a sad state right now with the current snow job > > administrations. They are unfortunately just a bit more disingenous > > than the last. It is all about the people on power maintaining power. > > > > > > > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Jun 2, 2009, at 2:26 PM, brentswain38 > > wrote: > > > > > Their resoning is to clear out all low income boaters so they wont > > > in any way incovenience the first class citizens, those with a lot > > > of money. What they are saying is second class boater Brent , should > > > be forced of his boat ,and into the ranks of the homeless, so first > > > class citizen John , can a have the harbour to himself and other > > > first class boaters , defined as those who can afford exorbitant > > > marina fees the rest of the year. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > >> > > >> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 03:41:19PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > >>> Interesting, there seems to be no end to the money grabs so that > > >>> government can support special interest groups. > > >>> > > >>> The bit about composting heads is really strange, so much so I > > >>> have to > > >>> wonder what they reasoning is. It would seem to me to be the > > >>> better > > >>> approach for the ecology of the planet. > > >> > > >> As far as I know, government regulation is _never_ about ecology, or > > >> better reasoning; it can't be, since governments that don't spend all > > >> their time and effort taking care of their prime requirement of > > >> survival > > >> (getting more votes at any cost) quickly lose their meal ticket. By > > >> the > > >> same token, most people vote their pocket, the short-term gains - not > > >> their intelligence, morality, or conscience, which are all longer- > > >> term > > >> concepts. > > >> > > >> We have, over most of this planet, created governments that survive > > >> on > > >> pandering to the lowest common denominator - since it's the mass vote > > >> that counts above all. Until we humans get smarter as a race and > > >> create > > >> a system of government that has as its prime motivator the > > >> improvement > > >> of its citizens' lives, this kind of thing is going to be universal > > >> and > > >> ever-increasing. > > >> > > >> I don't want to sound like a pessimist - the central core of my > > >> personal > > >> philosophy is that we humans _are_ smart enough to eventually > > >> overcome > > >> all obstacles, whether this ecological morass that we're in, nuclear > > >> proliferation, or vile, destructive systems of government. It's just > > >> that some days, I can't help feeling like "*WHEN* already, dammit?" > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > > >> * > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 20544|20544|2009-06-03 23:31:28|Wesley Cox|To Bruce Hallman re boat models|Bruce, I stopped receiving emails from the Bolger groups some time ago, because it was becoming more non-boat content than relevant content and I just didn't have time to filter it anymore. I do miss your boat models, though, a past time of my own, though I've never posted images. Have you done any origami stuff? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20545|20545|2009-06-04 04:45:50|juliaperryets|New Freebies June 04|Dear Member As a special treat for members, we have found another great page full of free-stuff you can collect INSTANTLY! There is so much to grab, its definately worth the visit. Simply click on the link below and it will take you directly to this amazing freebie page! http://groups.google.com/group/freebiepeople/web/freebies-june-04 If you can't find this 'temporary' page, visit: FreebieTelegraph (dot com), and there you will find more freebies, and a link to the LATEST ones! Thank you for all your support!| 20546|20546|2009-06-04 17:10:59|mllmag|Choice of welder|Hello everybody, I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... Martin NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries...| 20547|20486|2009-06-05 10:09:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: Marco Polo: Can you fold this Herreshoff? VS Bill Lee's Merlin|On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 04:08:52PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > Um wow!!!!.. I know that Ben can be a bit abrasive with his bluntness > once in a while but I have always found him to be decent man both on > the Internet where I originally met him and in person. > > As a matter of fact my fiance' and I very much enjoyed his company > last night sitting on his boat in the harbor talking boats and linux > with him and his wife. > > A nicer couple you will not find with a beautiful young son. They live > the life on their boat that most of us just dream of while we pay the > mortgage on the house and scurry to work every day. They actually got > off their butts and did it. Scott, it was a joy to meet you and your lovely fiancee. Spending the day with you two made this stop in Charleston, and this cruise, much more of a pleasure. > I loved his boat. It is a very functional steel hull with room for a > family, ketch rig with both masts in tabernacles that he can raise and > lower himself, and a custom pilothouse over the center cockpit of his > design that left me taking mental notes on ideas I would love to have > on a boat of mine. Thanks, Scott. Once I manage to get the rust under control, it'll be a lot better... I'm still working out the bugs in the painting process. :) This is one of the reasons that I like hanging out here and looking at Brent's designs: I thought I was a pretty clever monkey for coming up with some of the ideas on my boat, but the kinds of ideas that Brent and a few other people on this list come up with leave me stunned with admiration. In this respect, they do what I do but miles better. I'm just hanging around trying to learn how to be that smart, while helping others to whatever extent I can with the knowledge and experience that I have. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20548|20546|2009-06-05 10:22:35|will jones|Re: Choice of welder|Stay in Europe for your welder.  Here in the US, I purchased a 180A Clarke MIG for $450US to build a trailer to haul the 33T.  I believe this is an English brand.  Great duty cycle on this welder.  The only time I tripped out was when filling is the 1/4" gap between the side rails and cross members and only on the second or third one, depending on outside temp.   A 140-160A Hobart or Lincoln around me was $750US at the time.  I've used the 140A Hobart and it did not have as good a duty cycle as the Clarke.  Variable speed and Amp range.  You can't go wrong with this welder. --- On Thu, 6/4/09, mllmag wrote: From: mllmag Subject: [origamiboats] Choice of welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 5:10 PM Hello everybody, I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating.. .A pity, since I like recycling... ), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... Martin NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves.. .). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20549|20498|2009-06-05 10:33:38|will jones|Re: Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E|If the engine was assembled properly, it already has a lubricant coating on the bearings, cylinders, timing chain, etc. that will far outlast startup. So don't worry about it. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Grant Henry wrote: From: Grant Henry Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 11:55 AM Back in the early sixties, Gardner had a 65 horse engine that required manual pumping to bring up oil pressure before starting. Something of a pain but the engine never ran dry for those few moments before mechanical pressure kicked in. There may be some archival documentation still around. From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of mickeyolaf Sent: June 1, 2009 8:53 AM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E I'm still trying to ascertain the best way to force oil thru a new engine prior to turning it over? I talked to the Yanmar rep who said to engage the engine stop and turn the starter for 10 seconds 3 times and the pressure would come up. I would like to to have oil everywhere inside, bearings, top end etc before I hit the starter. My knowledge of diesels is limited to Duramax and that know how is pretty skinny. I wonder if u could pump oil thru the engine if u removed the oil pressure sender and put a nipple there? Or thru the filter hoses? Or fill it up and turn it upside down(just kidding)? Anybody know the best way to do this pre-prime? There seems to be a lot of different opinions on how best to accomplish it. It would kill me to start it up dry and have to listen to the knocking etc. Would probably take a 1000 hours off the engine life and 30 years off mine. Lets see, 54 years plus 30 years equals....ahhhh don't want to go there....... ...... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20550|20546|2009-06-05 10:44:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Choice of welder|On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 09:10:27PM -0000, mllmag wrote: > Hello everybody, > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking > on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings > saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull > (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I > like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build > a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm > trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers > and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand > Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician > tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when > welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but > it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change > it. Have you considered getting it fixed? That might be the cheapest option. Personally, I'd look for a 200A welder with the highest duty cycle I could find for the money I was willing to spend. I've heard people make the argument of "it'll cool down while you change rods and rest and wait for the weld to cool" and so on, but I don't find it valid: I hate to be limited by the low quality of a tool. I'd much rather use a high-quality tool, and let the *work* define my methods. Professional welders don't just use top-quality equipment because it looks nice or because that bright red or blue box gives them social status; they use it because they know that in a difficult situation, that extra bit of quality and power can make the difference between getting the job done or not. I'm not saying that you need a $15000 welding rig, though. I'm saying that you should figure out the maximum amount of welding output you'll need for the job, add whatever safety factor makes you feel comfortable on top of that (typically, that would be 50-100% extra), and buy equipment to do that. > So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make > a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like > Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some > cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? > Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? I'd say that a simple but tough AC buzzbox should be fine - as well as very cheap. It'll spatter more, and it limits you to certain types of rod, but you should be able to do everything you need for welding up a hull and deck. You can dig around at http://www.weldingrods.com/ and look for the types of rod that you'll want to use for all the jobs. If you can afford it, a good quality DC machine is, of course, better - but it is more complicated and _much_ more expensive per amp of output and duty cycle. On the other hand, it's a little easier to use, there's a lot more stuff you can do with it, and (given the amount of practice you'll have with it by then) you'll be able to make a living with it while cruising, especially if it's a multi-mode machine (i.e., SMAW/MIG/TIG). > On ebay there are > some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick > DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same > price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they > are any good? One of the people who used to post here, Seer, bought one and liked it. One person's opinion is too small of a sample set for me, though. Also, from my perspective, those things are way too complicated to buy in "Chinese" quality or to depend on. For myself, I'd avoid them. > Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need > oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is > oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting > (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? According to Brent - perhaps you should buy his book? It's got a lot of this stuff in it - an oxy-propane rig is all you need for cutting. Plasma cutters _are_ very nice, but unless you get a *big* one, you'll be waiting and waiting between cuts, while someone with an oxy-propane rig would be done already. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20551|20546|2009-06-05 12:55:07|sae140|Re: Choice of welder|I'd suggest a somewhat different approach. Rather than trying to select fabrication plant using your own judgement, you could do a lot worse than make contact with welders in your area and have a chat with them. It might even then be possible to hire an oxy-acetylene rig for a few days, which would solve your problem of cutting curves. Straight cuts can always be made with a decent angle grinder, and I'd suggest buying a 230mm, a 110mm and a third mid-sized grinder. That way you can fully use large disks without any waste. My favourite grinder is a Cetabo 150mm, which can be used either one or two-handed. Turning to welders - a lot depends on your power supply. If you're limited to 15A or less, then apart from a diesel/petrol-powered welder, an inverter is the only viable option. I have a Messer-Gresheim inverter which has a duty cycle of 100% at 100A, so can burn 3.2mm (c.110-120A) rods almost non-stop, direct from a 13A wall outlet. If you have a 30A supply, then a heavy duty buzz-box becomes feasible. Burning 3.2mm rods will pull between 23-25A at 50 OCV. I'm assuming you have a 240V single-phase supply. If you happen to have 440V 3-phase, then almost anything becomes possible - s/h 3-phase welders are often cheap to buy, as 3-phase is usually beyond the reach of amateur welders. Farm bankrupty or retirement sales are also a good source of welding kit - Oxford oil-cooled welders can often be bought cheaply. I bought a s/h BOC TransArc 250A air-cooled single & 3-phase for just £40 (< 50 Euros) a couple of years back, so it's not always essential to buy new kit. That lump is completely indestructible - pity you're not based in the UK, you'd be more than welcome to borrow it.| 20552|20498|2009-06-05 13:55:25|will jones|Re: Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E|Just a note.  If you still want to pre-prime, just go through where the oil pressure sending unit attaches.  Just some galvanize pipe, air hose, a valve or two and a check valve and you are in business. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Fri, 6/5/09, will jones wrote: From: will jones Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 5, 2009, 10:33 AM If the engine was assembled properly, it already has a lubricant coating on the bearings, cylinders, timing chain, etc. that will far outlast startup. So don't worry about it. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Grant Henry wrote: From: Grant Henry Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 11:55 AM Back in the early sixties, Gardner had a 65 horse engine that required manual pumping to bring up oil pressure before starting. Something of a pain but the engine never ran dry for those few moments before mechanical pressure kicked in. There may be some archival documentation still around. From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboat s@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of mickeyolaf Sent: June 1, 2009 8:53 AM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Pre-Priming a Yanmar 4JH3E I'm still trying to ascertain the best way to force oil thru a new engine prior to turning it over? I talked to the Yanmar rep who said to engage the engine stop and turn the starter for 10 seconds 3 times and the pressure would come up. I would like to to have oil everywhere inside, bearings, top end etc before I hit the starter. My knowledge of diesels is limited to Duramax and that know how is pretty skinny. I wonder if u could pump oil thru the engine if u removed the oil pressure sender and put a nipple there? Or thru the filter hoses? Or fill it up and turn it upside down(just kidding)? Anybody know the best way to do this pre-prime? There seems to be a lot of different opinions on how best to accomplish it. It would kill me to start it up dry and have to listen to the knocking etc. Would probably take a 1000 hours off the engine life and 30 years off mine. Lets see, 54 years plus 30 years equals....ahhhh don't want to go there....... ...... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20553|20553|2009-06-05 14:18:42|Martin Demers|weight of a 6in. steel mast|Hi, I am trying to figure the weight of a 6in steel mast. starting with the weight of a 6in. diameter steel tube x 1/8 wall by 20 feet long wich is 160 lbs. so if the mast is a bit over 40 ft (let say 45ft) that would make a mast of a little over 320 lbs. How this compares with the weight of an aluminium mast or of a wooden mast? anyone? Martin.| 20554|20546|2009-06-05 14:19:58|brentswain38|Re: Choice of welder|With boats being able to cross borders easily, you'd be better of to go build in a boater freindly EU country. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello everybody, > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > Martin > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > | 20555|20546|2009-06-05 14:23:34|brentswain38|Re: Choice of welder|A cheap AC 225 amp buzzbox is all I have ever needed. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With boats being able to cross borders easily, you'd be better of to go build in a boater freindly EU country. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > Hello everybody, > > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > > Martin > > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > > > | 20556|20546|2009-06-05 14:55:52|edward_stoneuk|Re: Choice of welder|Hi mllmag, Some types of welders even though the welder has the amperes will give weaker and intermittent flow with some types of rod as you describe. It happened to me with dia 3.2mm 6010/6011 rods, they just would not work well. After talking to welder friends who didn't know why, I spoke to a knowledgable technical chap from Thyssen, the company who made the rods, and after being told my type of welder, a small inverter one similar to yours, he said check the welder's open circuit voltage. I did and it was too low for the type of rods I was trying. I changed rods after checking their open circuit volyage requirement and now all is well. I changed to dia 3.2mm 6013, but not all types of them work well so there was some trial and error. Be aware that some welders and welding supplies company employees know little or nothing about open circuit voltage and may try to ridicule or patronise you. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello everybody, > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > Martin > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > | 20557|20553|2009-06-05 15:04:15|Doug|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|Steel is more that 40% lighter than a solid wood mast of the same strength according to the utility pole makers. But you can build a hollow wood mast. I'm still looking for an aluminum utility pole as a possible alternative, but so far have had no luck. My guess is that the increase in cost is going to be greater than the decrease in weight and maintenance anyway. Doug Jackson SubmarineBoat.com| 20558|20553|2009-06-05 15:58:14|Paul Wilson|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|Hi Martin, Here are some sections of aluminum masts to compare to: http://www.dwyermast.com/families.asp?cat1ID=20&cat1Name=Masts If you look in the files section of the group, I posted an old magazine article as a pdf file called "Build Your Own Mast" which discusses making masts out of commercial aluminum tubing. You will find some more weights in there. Cheers, Paul| 20559|20553|2009-06-05 15:59:01|martin demers|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|Then dont tell me how much weigh a solid wood mast!!! ...I saw an aluminium utility pole this afternoon at the scrap yard but it was only around 30ft long and tappering to about 3in. at the end. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: djackson99@... Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 19:03:57 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast Steel is more that 40% lighter than a solid wood mast of the same strength according to the utility pole makers. But you can build a hollow wood mast. I'm still looking for an aluminum utility pole as a possible alternative, but so far have had no luck. My guess is that the increase in cost is going to be greater than the decrease in weight and maintenance anyway. Doug Jackson SubmarineBoat.com _________________________________________________________________ Créez un personnage à votre image pour votre WL Messenger http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656622 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20560|20553|2009-06-05 16:12:32|will jones|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|Martin, chill man, this is about learning and most of the folks here have tidbits of knowledge that are quite good.    Actually he did tell you how much a hollow mast weighs.  Lets say a steel mast is 100 lbs, a solid wood mast would be 100/0.4=250lbs.  If 40% of the solid mast is hollow then the hollow mast would be 250lbs-(250 x 0.4) =150lbs or 250 x 0.6.  The a solid mast was only 30% heavier than a hollow mast of same size and the solid mast weighed 250lbs, the hollow one would weigh 175lbs.   Another way to guesstimate the weight is to know from this group that a number of hexagonal wooden masts are made around 1-1/2" thick and around 8"-10" in outside diameter.  If we use 10" and subtract 3" (2x1-1/2") we get 7"/10" or 70% hollow.  If this stays proportional over the taper we can just subtract 70% of the weight off. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Fri, 6/5/09, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 5, 2009, 3:58 PM Then dont tell me how much weigh a solid wood mast!!! ...I saw an aluminium utility pole this afternoon at the scrap yard but it was only around 30ft long and tappering to about 3in. at the end. To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com From: djackson99@aol. com Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 19:03:57 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast Steel is more that 40% lighter than a solid wood mast of the same strength according to the utility pole makers. But you can build a hollow wood mast. I'm still looking for an aluminum utility pole as a possible alternative, but so far have had no luck. My guess is that the increase in cost is going to be greater than the decrease in weight and maintenance anyway. Doug Jackson SubmarineBoat. com ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Créez un personnage à votre image pour votre WL Messenger http://go.microsoft .com/?linkid= 9656622 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20561|20561|2009-06-05 17:06:09|ANDREW AIREY|Rust in steel boats|Not strictly accurate about 19mm steel,at least for boats suitable for the narrow canals in the UK - 7ft beam max.The current standard practice for narrowboats is 10mm base,6mm sides,4mm top.The narrowboat I'm overhauling had 6mm base and 4.5mm sides.30 years or so in the water and about 12 years on land had reduced the base in places to 2mm and there were some dodgy places on the sides although it hadn't actually gone through.I suspect most the rot occurred on land.I've had it skinned with 6mm plate on the base and up to the waterline.The outside has been painted with epoxy tar. If you want to go up to wide beam or 'barge' sizes then UK builders would probably use thicker steel.19mm sounds about right for the base although Castle Boats,who skinned my narrowboats,have recently built a barge using 25mm plate for the base. Dutch practise was different.They used 6mm plate in the main,with 8mm as a possibility for the barges intended for heavier or seagoing use.Note that insurance companies are said to want plates to be at least 4mm thick. If you want to bring a boat into Europe from the USA you need to check out the EU Recreational Craft Directive,which may create problems for you. There are plenty of builders in the UK,or you could try Holland(expensive) or Poland.If you are content with use on inland waterways then builders can self certify the boat(narrowboats and wide beam narrowboats)but if you want something with coastal capability(some but not all replica Dutch barges)then you need a builder with a design approved to the relevant RCD standard as one-off approvals are horrendously expensive.You could self build an Origami boat though - there is an exemption for self builds. Don't register a barge in France if you want to take it to sea.The French don't regard barges as seagoing - I don't think they ever had a tradition of seagoing sailing barges like the English and the Dutch. cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 20562|20562|2009-06-05 22:13:46|mickeyolaf|Foam Backed Headliner|Anyone know the source of the headliners u see in higher end boats? Looks like leather, has or looks to have small pin holes in it. U used to see it in airplanes. I would like to find a liner that is substantially foam backed if possible.| 20563|20562|2009-06-06 10:22:11|Donal Philby|Re: Foam Backed Headliner|Go to www.sailrite.com and search for headliner. donal -----Original Message----- >From: mickeyolaf >Anyone know the source of the headliners u see in higher end boats? Looks like leather, has or looks to have small pin holes in it. U used to see it in airplanes. | 20564|11091|2009-06-06 11:05:22|Barney Treadway|Rig question for Ben and anyone else|Hi Ben, I see you have Ulysees masts in tabernacles and I'm wondering your reasons for a bermuda rig rather than a lower aspect rig? I'm wanting an easy way to drop masts as well and it seems the shorter the stick the better. When one adds the shorter twin keels it would also seem that a lower center of effort would be desired as well. Just curious, thanks. Barney| 20565|20546|2009-06-06 17:39:59|mllmag|Re: Choice of welder|Hello Ted, Thank you for the info. It could well be it. Looking at the specs for the machine (a decaweld MOS Evo 168) I read 75 Volts open voltage, 150 AMp at 30% duty and 110 AMp at 60%, and usable for up to 4mm electrodes. Now the latter I hardly think it can be true for my machine: I tried a 3.2mm rod for a job at the farm (joining two 10mm plates at right angle but with about 3mm gap in some places) and the machine could not fire it properly (it made a subdued hissing sound most of the time instead of a frying and crackling sound) besides putting a lot of slag inside the weld. I wish I could repair it. But I would have to make a trip to where it was bought, and I don't think the cost of that and the repair will pay for itself. Usually on the rods I buy for the farm jobs, the E6013, it is not mentioned the open voltage requirements on the package. They are Cevik brand, one found in one of the big warehouses for DIY and home improvement locally (Leroy Merlin, a french chain I think but the rod is made in Italy I think). As you say, when I go to a specialized shop, they don't know much either...and dificult to say when to trust them in what they say... Regards, martin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi mllmag, > > Some types of welders even though the welder has the amperes will give weaker and intermittent flow with some types of rod as you describe. It happened to me with dia 3.2mm 6010/6011 rods, they just would not work well. After talking to welder friends who didn't know why, I spoke to a knowledgable technical chap from Thyssen, the company who made the rods, and after being told my type of welder, a small inverter one similar to yours, he said check the welder's open circuit voltage. I did and it was too low for the type of rods I was trying. I changed rods after checking their open circuit volyage requirement and now all is well. I changed to dia 3.2mm 6013, but not all types of them work well so there was some trial and error. > > Be aware that some welders and welding supplies company employees know little or nothing about open circuit voltage and may try to ridicule or patronise you. > > Regards, > > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > Hello everybody, > > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > > Martin > > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > > > | 20566|20546|2009-06-06 17:42:52|brentswain38|Re: Choice of welder|6010's dont like AC Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi mllmag, > > Some types of welders even though the welder has the amperes will give weaker and intermittent flow with some types of rod as you describe. It happened to me with dia 3.2mm 6010/6011 rods, they just would not work well. After talking to welder friends who didn't know why, I spoke to a knowledgable technical chap from Thyssen, the company who made the rods, and after being told my type of welder, a small inverter one similar to yours, he said check the welder's open circuit voltage. I did and it was too low for the type of rods I was trying. I changed rods after checking their open circuit volyage requirement and now all is well. I changed to dia 3.2mm 6013, but not all types of them work well so there was some trial and error. > > Be aware that some welders and welding supplies company employees know little or nothing about open circuit voltage and may try to ridicule or patronise you. > > Regards, > > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > Hello everybody, > > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > > Martin > > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > > > | 20567|20546|2009-06-06 17:47:46|mllmag|Re: Choice of welder|Hello Ted, Thank you for the info. It could well be it. Looking at the specs for the machine (a decaweld MOS Evo 168) I read 75 Volts open voltage, 150 AMp at 30% duty and 110 AMp at 60%, and usable for up to 4mm electrodes. Now the latter I hardly think it can be true for my machine: I tried a 3.2mm rod for a job at the farm (joining two 10mm plates at right angle but with about 3mm gap in some places) and the machine could not fire it properly (it made a subdued hissing sound most of the time instead of a frying and crackling sound) besides putting a lot of slag inside the weld. I wish I could repair it. But I would have to make a trip to where it was bought, and I don't think the cost of that and the repair will pay for itself. Usually on the rods I buy for the farm jobs, the E6013, it is not mentioned the open voltage requirements on the package. They are Cevik brand, one found in one of the big warehouses for DIY and home improvement locally (Leroy Merlin, a french chain I think but the rod is made in Italy I think). As you say, when I go to a specialized shop, they don't know much either...and dificult to say when to trust them in what they say... Regards, martin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi mllmag, > > Some types of welders even though the welder has the amperes will give weaker and intermittent flow with some types of rod as you describe. It happened to me with dia 3.2mm 6010/6011 rods, they just would not work well. After talking to welder friends who didn't know why, I spoke to a knowledgable technical chap from Thyssen, the company who made the rods, and after being told my type of welder, a small inverter one similar to yours, he said check the welder's open circuit voltage. I did and it was too low for the type of rods I was trying. I changed rods after checking their open circuit volyage requirement and now all is well. I changed to dia 3.2mm 6013, but not all types of them work well so there was some trial and error. > > Be aware that some welders and welding supplies company employees know little or nothing about open circuit voltage and may try to ridicule or patronise you. > > Regards, > > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > Hello everybody, > > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > > Martin > > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > > > | 20568|20553|2009-06-06 17:49:46|brentswain38|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|I found a 6 inch OD with a 1/8th wall , roughly the same weight as a solid fir , or a 5 1/2 by 8 inch spruce box section with 1 1/4 inch walls, and far stronger. Seal it airtight and you have no worries about internal corrosion. Hollow wood masts tend to rot from the inside and are far more complicated to attatch stays and shrouds etc to than a steel mast. Lately I have been using a 2 to 1 scarf to joint 20 foot sections , much lighter and easier to do than sleeves, and just as strong as the original pipe. People who have switched from 6 5/8th well tubing to aluminium haven't found a huge improvement in sailing performance and one said if he had 6 inch instead of 6 5/8th, the change would have been unoticeable. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > Steel is more that 40% lighter than a solid wood mast of the same strength according to the utility pole makers. But you can build a hollow wood mast. > > I'm still looking for an aluminum utility pole as a possible alternative, but so far have had no luck. My guess is that the increase in cost is going to be greater than the decrease in weight and maintenance anyway. > > Doug Jackson > SubmarineBoat.com > | 20569|20561|2009-06-06 17:53:06|brentswain38|Re: Rust in steel boats|Would you have eliminated the inside corrosion problem if she had been painted inside with three coats of epoxy tar? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > Not strictly accurate about 19mm steel,at least for boats suitable for the narrow canals in the UK - 7ft beam max.The current standard practice for narrowboats is 10mm base,6mm sides,4mm top.The narrowboat I'm overhauling had 6mm base and 4.5mm sides.30 years or so in the water and about 12 years on land had reduced the base in places to 2mm and there were some dodgy places on the sides although it hadn't actually gone through.I suspect most the rot occurred on land.I've had it skinned with 6mm plate on the base and up to the waterline.The outside has been painted with epoxy tar. > If you want to go up to wide beam or 'barge' sizes then UK builders would probably use thicker steel.19mm sounds about right for the base although Castle Boats,who skinned my narrowboats,have recently built a barge using 25mm plate for the base. > Dutch practise was different.They used 6mm plate in the main,with 8mm as a possibility for the barges intended for heavier or seagoing use.Note that insurance companies are said to want plates to be at least 4mm thick. > If you want to bring a boat into Europe from the USA you need to check out the EU Recreational Craft Directive,which may create problems for you. > There are plenty of builders in the UK,or you could try Holland(expensive) or Poland.If you are content with use on inland waterways then builders can self certify the boat(narrowboats and wide beam narrowboats)but if you want something with coastal capability(some but not all replica Dutch barges)then you need a builder with a design approved to the relevant RCD standard as one-off approvals are horrendously expensive.You could self build an Origami boat though - there is an exemption for self builds. > Don't register a barge in France if you want to take it to sea.The French don't regard barges as seagoing - I don't think they ever had a tradition of seagoing sailing barges like the English and the Dutch. > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 20570|20546|2009-06-06 17:55:26|mllmag|Re: Choice of welder|Hello, Thanks. I'll look after this Clarke welder to see if I can find one that I can buy. But a MIG machine needs gas bottles and maybe that is prohibitive for an amateur. Or can it be used with a flux-core? I never could find a source explaining if the flux-core MIG welding is as good as regular MIG welding with gas...Anyway, it is said (Brent too)that MIG cannot be trusted for its quality welds specially if there is wind...BUt I think I would build inside. Funny how on ebay some MIG machines are actually cheaper than many inverters... I don't know why reputable machines (Lincoln, Miller) are so expensive, so I thought maybe they are better welders. From what you say this does not have to be so. Regards, Marti| 20571|20546|2009-06-06 18:22:14|mllmag|Re: Choice of welder|Hello Brent, Thanks for the reply. Do you mean that any 225 amp AC welder will do? I think Alex told me that for his boat you used a Lincoln AC welder, and a DC welder for some strange metal you found on the keel...Now a Lincoln machine is not a cheap one, even for AC welder. I cannot find them locally any cheap. ANd even in the USA they seem expensive in comparison...Alex tells me you have a lot of experience with many welding machines. Are in your opinion all equivalent and none any easier to weld or with better results, even cheap brands sold in big home improvement chains, probably made in china? If so, I guess I had bad luck in the inverter I got and it is really faulty or just inadequate (open voltage rating, duty cycle of 110 amp at 60% etc...). Regards, Martin| 20572|20546|2009-06-06 18:26:28|mllmag|Re: Choice of welder|Hello Brent, I wish I could, like coming nearby where you are and arrange something in order to build a BS26 or BS31. I talked with Alex about it, and I hoped I could do it in some time. But as time goes by I am pessimistic about it, since my family situation makes it very difficult for the time being...A real pity, and that's why I am trying to build or start building at least here. Regards, martin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With boats being able to cross borders easily, you'd be better of to go build in a boater freindly EU country. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > Hello everybody, > > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > > Martin > > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > > > | 20573|20553|2009-06-06 18:37:00|martin demers|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|Brent,when you say 2 to 1 scarf on a 6 in. tubing, do you mean the scarf is 12 in long. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:49:32 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast I found a 6 inch OD with a 1/8th wall , roughly the same weight as a solid fir , or a 5 1/2 by 8 inch spruce box section with 1 1/4 inch walls, and far stronger. Seal it airtight and you have no worries about internal corrosion. Hollow wood masts tend to rot from the inside and are far more complicated to attatch stays and shrouds etc to than a steel mast. Lately I have been using a 2 to 1 scarf to joint 20 foot sections , much lighter and easier to do than sleeves, and just as strong as the original pipe. People who have switched from 6 5/8th well tubing to aluminium haven't found a huge improvement in sailing performance and one said if he had 6 inch instead of 6 5/8th, the change would have been unoticeable. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > Steel is more that 40% lighter than a solid wood mast of the same strength according to the utility pole makers. But you can build a hollow wood mast. > > I'm still looking for an aluminum utility pole as a possible alternative, but so far have had no luck. My guess is that the increase in cost is going to be greater than the decrease in weight and maintenance anyway. > > Doug Jackson > SubmarineBoat.com > _________________________________________________________________ Nous sommes vos photos. Partagez-nous dès maintenant avec Windows Live Photos. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666051 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20574|20546|2009-06-06 18:43:36|martin demers|Re: Choice of welder|Brent, I dont have acces to electricity where my boat is located, so what would you think of a lincoln SA200 gas welder?Martin.(in Montreal) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:42:39 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder 6010's dont like AC Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi mllmag, > > Some types of welders even though the welder has the amperes will give weaker and intermittent flow with some types of rod as you describe. It happened to me with dia 3.2mm 6010/6011 rods, they just would not work well. After talking to welder friends who didn't know why, I spoke to a knowledgable technical chap from Thyssen, the company who made the rods, and after being told my type of welder, a small inverter one similar to yours, he said check the welder's open circuit voltage. I did and it was too low for the type of rods I was trying. I changed rods after checking their open circuit volyage requirement and now all is well. I changed to dia 3.2mm 6013, but not all types of them work well so there was some trial and error. > > Be aware that some welders and welding supplies company employees know little or nothing about open circuit voltage and may try to ridicule or patronise you. > > Regards, > > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > Hello everybody, > > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > > Martin > > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > > > _________________________________________________________________ Internet explorer 8 aide à protéger la vie privée. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9655573 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20575|20546|2009-06-06 18:57:05|mllmag|Re: Choice of welder|Hello Ben, Thank you for your reply. I was tempted to buy a AC buzzbox as cheap as I could find locally, a 200 Amp (forgot to look at what duty cycle) Herkules available at a home improvement chain locally for 150 Eu, and hope for the best. But I rethought about it and I don't want to throw money collecting welders after the one I got, and decided to ask the group in case welders are not really all similar even if they have the same specs. What you say that a multimode machine could be useful in a boat, even for a living, intrigues me. That's why I thought the Lotos was interesting. BUt I think the current source needed must be very stable and that's not easily available. There are some mobile welders, but very expensive. An interesting one is called www.zena.net, rated 150 amp DC at 100% duty cycle (or 200 amp if wanted as an option) and usable out of any turning engine. ANd it has options for MIG spools etc...But at a cost...I thought if it were any cheaper it would be very interesting since after building the boat it could be fitted easily in the boat engine, if one was available. I enquired about an oxy-acetilene set: the cheapest one locally (two bottles of about 3 feet high. The seller didn't know its capacity...and it was an specialist shop...)sells for a little more than 900 Eu. That's a lot of money for just an item to cut. I think I am better off witha cheap plasma cutter. The beauty of the Lotos is that it would solve that and the welder at the same time. It is a good thing the person who bought one was happy with it. However the machine is a bit shadowy: asking the seller, it said that 200 amp at 60% and 95 amp at 100% (which I found too low for a 200 amp at 60% and enquired the seller) was a typo and it really was 140 amp at 100%. But then he gave a link of the maker, and there it said it is 160 amp at 60%, 95 amp at 100%. So not really great...See what the seller answers, but it gives a bad impression... I bought already Brent's book, and the plans of the boat. Regards, martin > Have you considered getting it fixed? That might be the cheapest option. > > Personally, I'd look for a 200A welder with the highest duty cycle I > could find for the money I was willing to spend. I've heard people make > the argument of "it'll cool down while you change rods and rest and wait > for the weld to cool" and so on, but I don't find it valid: I hate to be > limited by the low quality of a tool. I'd much rather use a high-quality > tool, and let the *work* define my methods. Professional welders don't > just use top-quality equipment because it looks nice or because that > bright red or blue box gives them social status; they use it because > they know that in a difficult situation, that extra bit of quality and > power can make the difference between getting the job done or not. > > I'm not saying that you need a $15000 welding rig, though. I'm saying > that you should figure out the maximum amount of welding output you'll > need for the job, add whatever safety factor makes you feel comfortable > on top of that (typically, that would be 50-100% extra), and buy > equipment to do that. > > > So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make > > a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like > > Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some > > cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? > > Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? > > I'd say that a simple but tough AC buzzbox should be fine - as well as > very cheap. It'll spatter more, and it limits you to certain types of > rod, but you should be able to do everything you need for welding up a > hull and deck. You can dig around at http://www.weldingrods.com/ and > look for the types of rod that you'll want to use for all the jobs. > > If you can afford it, a good quality DC machine is, of course, better - > but it is more complicated and _much_ more expensive per amp of output > and duty cycle. On the other hand, it's a little easier to use, there's > a lot more stuff you can do with it, and (given the amount of practice > you'll have with it by then) you'll be able to make a living with it > while cruising, especially if it's a multi-mode machine (i.e., > SMAW/MIG/TIG). > > > On ebay there are > > some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick > > DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same > > price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they > > are any good? > > One of the people who used to post here, Seer, bought one and liked it. > One person's opinion is too small of a sample set for me, though. Also, > from my perspective, those things are way too complicated to buy in > "Chinese" quality or to depend on. For myself, I'd avoid them. > > > Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need > > oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is > > oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting > > (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > According to Brent - perhaps you should buy his book? It's got a lot of > this stuff in it - an oxy-propane rig is all you need for cutting. > Plasma cutters _are_ very nice, but unless you get a *big* one, you'll > be waiting and waiting between cuts, while someone with an oxy-propane > rig would be done already. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20576|20546|2009-06-06 19:13:11|mllmag|Re: Choice of welder|Hello, It is very interesting what you say: for a 100 amp at 100% cycle machine you say you can use 3.2mm rods. Well, in my inverter (decaweld model MOS Evo 168)I tried those (E6013 3.2mm rod) when trying to repair two 10mm plates at 90 deg angle with some 3-4mm gaps (so a difficult weld for me...), and in my opinion the machine could not fire them properly: most of the time (just after a few seconds) the sound was a subdues hissing instead of a frying crackling, suggesting that. And the specs of the machine said 110 amp at 60%, 150 amp at 30%, open circuit voltage 75 volts. So I am beginning to think after all the responses that the most important spec of a welder is the amps at 100% duty cycle, and forget the ratingthe seller gives (mine at 150 amp is very poor, if only at 30% cycle, and that maybe the cause of all the problems I find with it). I'm completely open to used equipment. I have looked extensively on the web. I cannot find none locally. There is very little second hand dealings here, I don't know why. maybe I don't know how to find them. Yes, really a pity I am not in the UK. Boat building would be much easier I think... ANother issue you mention: I have a 240 volt 15 amp supply (although I think I really use 30 amp, I am not sure). ANd I read that for AC welders at 240 volt really require higher amp supplies (I guess for a 225 AC welder as Brent suggests minimmum is 30 amp?), whereas DC welders require significantly less. Is that true? Regards, Martin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > I'd suggest a somewhat different approach. Rather than trying to select fabrication plant using your own judgement, you could do a lot worse than make contact with welders in your area and have a chat with them. > It might even then be possible to hire an oxy-acetylene rig for a few days, which would solve your problem of cutting curves. > Straight cuts can always be made with a decent angle grinder, and I'd suggest buying a 230mm, a 110mm and a third mid-sized grinder. That way you can fully use large disks without any waste. My favourite grinder is a Cetabo 150mm, which can be used either one or two-handed. > > Turning to welders - a lot depends on your power supply. If you're limited to 15A or less, then apart from a diesel/petrol-powered welder, an inverter is the only viable option. I have a Messer-Gresheim inverter which has a duty cycle of 100% at 100A, so can burn 3.2mm (c.110-120A) rods almost non-stop, direct from a 13A wall outlet. > > If you have a 30A supply, then a heavy duty buzz-box becomes feasible. Burning 3.2mm rods will pull between 23-25A at 50 OCV. I'm assuming you have a 240V single-phase supply. If you happen to have 440V 3-phase, then almost anything becomes possible - s/h 3-phase welders are often cheap to buy, as 3-phase is usually beyond the reach of amateur welders. > > Farm bankrupty or retirement sales are also a good source of welding kit - Oxford oil-cooled welders can often be bought cheaply. I bought a s/h BOC TransArc 250A air-cooled single & 3-phase for just £40 (< 50 Euros) a couple of years back, so it's not always essential to buy new kit. That lump is completely indestructible - pity you're not based in the UK, you'd be more than welcome to borrow it. > | 20577|11091|2009-06-06 21:53:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Rig question for Ben and anyone else|On Sat, Jun 06, 2009 at 09:04:02AM -0600, Barney Treadway wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I see you have Ulysees masts in tabernacles and I'm wondering your > reasons for a bermuda rig rather than a lower aspect rig? [grin] It's simple: that's what the boat came with. I've considered redoing it as a junk rig, but it's not something with a high priority. Sorry I don't have a better-considered rationale for it. If I was going to build something new, I'd definitely consider a low-aspect rig, though. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20578|20546|2009-06-06 22:00:39|David Frantz|Re: Choice of welder|David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 6, 2009, at 5:55 PM, mllmag wrote: > Hello, > Thanks. I'll look after this Clarke welder to see if I can find one > that I can buy. But a MIG machine needs gas bottles and maybe that > is prohibitive for an amateur. Or can it be used with a flux-core? Most mig welders can be converted to run flux core. Notably flux core is not mig welding, the two terms can't be used interchangably. > I never could find a source explaining if the flux-core MIG welding > is as good as regular MIG welding with gas...Anyway, I would have to say it isn't but I've done very little flux core. I use Mig at home and have used it in the past for machine repair, with the right equipement it can produce very nice welds. The key is prep, mig needs very clean metal which sort of rules it out for boat building. At least if you want to do that building fast out in the open. If you have indoor facilities and weeks of free time for prep work mig might be ok for some parts of the boat. > it is said (Brent too)that MIG cannot be trusted for its quality > welds specially if there is wind...BUt I think I would build inside. Mig is tough outside unless you can wait for the really still days. It is not just the wind that causes trouble though as mig has it's own issues that should cause one to think long and hard about using it. One issue is the so called cold starts. The other issues is weldor related in that you need to be able to visually see what is going on at the weld puddle and where that puddle is. Not always easy to do with mig. Mig is used in ship construction and some times flux core with gas shielding. The thing is these are not the small portable welders that many might be thinking about. A mig welder truely suited for the job is expensive. It is an expense that isn't required. > Funny how on ebay some MIG machines are actually cheaper than many > inverters... > I don't know why reputable machines (Lincoln, Miller) are so > expensive, so I thought maybe they are better welders. It depends on what types of welders you are talking about. The Lincoln and Miller mig welders are worth their asking price. Many of the imported mig welders are crap. Now when you start talking about imported AC/DC arc welders of the inverter type the discussion becomes more interesting. Some of the imported welders work well. The problem with the imports is sorting the good from the bad. Especially when the same welder may have dozens of names slapped on it. You might want to check out the welding forums for more info. > From what you say this does not have to be so. > Regards, > Marti > There are one or two European manufactures of welders that have an OK reputation. These wont be cheap though. The Chinese welders are a mixed bag. Some are developing reputations. Notice I didn't say good or bad as both apply. Again it is difficult for a westerner to separate the good from the bad. In any event the initial cost of the welder is nothing compared to the issue of service. One of the big advantages of the AC buzz boxes is that they can go for years before service Is required. Get anything more complex and you need to be able to get service parts. This is what you are buying with the two big name brands, it is the comfort that comes from knowing that you can get the unit repaired or serviced as needed. It becomes more important as the welder becomes more complex. So avoid the complex machines if you want to go cheap and live without support. Frankly you seem to be an example of what happens when a welder goes on the fritz and can not be serviced. Buying cheap no name welders can be very expensive in the long run. In any event I have to wonder if that welder you mentioned is really unservicable. Have you tried tracking it down on the net? I have this idea that Clark welders are built in Italy, but I could be wrong. Dave > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20579|20546|2009-06-06 22:03:25|David Frantz|Re: Choice of welder|I'm not brent but an SA200 is a classic welder and well respected. The problem is that many have been rebuilt and reengined several times. So you need to go over it with a fine tooth comb. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 6, 2009, at 6:43 PM, martin demers wrote: > > Brent, I dont have acces to electricity where my boat is located, > so what would you think of a lincoln SA200 gas welder?Martin.(in > Montreal) > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:42:39 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6010's dont like AC > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > >> > >> Hi mllmag, > >> > >> Some types of welders even though the welder has the amperes will >> give weaker and intermittent flow with some types of rod as you >> describe. It happened to me with dia 3.2mm 6010/6011 rods, they >> just would not work well. After talking to welder friends who >> didn't know why, I spoke to a knowledgable technical chap from >> Thyssen, the company who made the rods, and after being told my >> type of welder, a small inverter one similar to yours, he said >> check the welder's open circuit voltage. I did and it was too low >> for the type of rods I was trying. I changed rods after checking >> their open circuit volyage requirement and now all is well. I >> changed to dia 3.2mm 6013, but not all types of them work well so >> there was some trial and error. > >> > >> Be aware that some welders and welding supplies company employees >> know little or nothing about open circuit voltage and may try to >> ridicule or patronise you. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Ted > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > >>> > >>> Hello everybody, > >>> I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and >>> lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after >>> Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking >>> for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very >>> frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have >>> pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a >>> BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, >>> asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the >>> tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > >>> One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand >>> Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local >>> mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and >>> intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). >>> Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a >>> faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a >>> new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the >>> budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or >>> just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese >>> AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK >>> too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when >>> building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has >>> been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely >>> to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any >>> problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there >>> are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 >>> AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are >>> about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does >>> anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big >>> advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or >>> melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to >>> handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > >>> Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be >>> easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, >>> specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica >>> 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that >>> could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a >>> LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody >>> know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be >>> great for welding (for a newbie)? > >>> Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > >>> Martin > >>> NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the >>> boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat >>> builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they >>> ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the >>> building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an >>> enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not >>> available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the >>> governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take >>> that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local >>> builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a >>> certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, >>> paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very >>> discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other >>> more boatlover friendly countries... > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Internet explorer 8 aide à protéger la vie privée. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9655573 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20580|20580|2009-06-07 04:54:13|Paul Thompson|Dry exhaust hull gasket|Hi Guys, What are you using for gaskets where the exhaust exits the hull? Normal exhaust gasket material does not look as if it would enjoy getting wet. I do expect the exhaust exits to go under the water occasionally. Comments would be appreciated. Regards, Paul Thompson| 20581|20546|2009-06-07 06:14:23|sae140|Re: Choice of welder|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello, > It is very interesting what you say: for a 100 amp at 100% cycle machine you say you can use 3.2mm rods. Well, in my inverter (decaweld model MOS Evo 168)I tried those (E6013 3.2mm rod) when trying to repair two 10mm plates at 90 deg angle with some 3-4mm gaps (so a difficult weld for me...), and in my opinion the machine could not fire them properly: most of the time (just after a few seconds) the sound was a subdues hissing instead of a frying crackling, suggesting that. And the specs of the machine said 110 amp at 60%, 150 amp at 30%, open circuit voltage 75 volts. Stone me - 75volts OCV on an inverter - that kit should be able to burn ANYTHING ! Q. Does the arc characteristics always change after a few seconds ? I'm wondering if you might have a TIG selection switch set to ON ? If you do have one, it needs to be OFF when stick welding of course. > So I am beginning to think after all the responses that the most important spec of a welder is the amps at 100% duty cycle, and forget the ratingthe seller gives (mine at 150 amp is very poor, if only at 30% cycle, and that maybe the cause of all the problems I find with it). 30% at 150A is OK (mine is 35% @ 140A) - if you're burning 3.2mm you'll probably not often go much above 120A. > Yes, really a pity I am not in the UK. Boat building would be much easier I think... I think so. > ANother issue you mention: I have a 240 volt 15 amp supply (although I think I really use 30 amp, I am not sure). ANd I read that for AC welders at 240 volt really require higher amp supplies (I guess for a 225 AC welder as Brent suggests minimmum is 30 amp?), Well - the sums are straightforward. With a 50V OCV and a 240V supply, 120A at the arc would require: (50/240) * 120 = 25A supply. That's Max current, as the voltage progressively drops as the arc becomes established, but the supply needs to be able to handle the current from that initial arc 'pulse'. > whereas DC welders require significantly less. Is that true? I wouldn't like to say - the AC current quoted is RMS (root-mean-square), so it is the 'average' current when the 'lumps' are mathematically ironed-out. There's two types of DC employed in welders - 'lumpy DC' which results from attaching nothing more than a diode pack to an AC waveform, and 'smooth DC' which is found in MIG welders and inverters. I assume that the 'lumpy DC' spec is again an RMS average (.707 of peak), so the supply current requirement will be more-or-less the same as AC. The big supply requirement difference between an AC buzz-box and a DC inverter is achieved principally by the difference in output voltages, but also the power savings from voltage conversion efficiency (at the expense of using complex electronics technology with it's higher failure rate). I'm a great believer in making comparisons with other equipment: I went on a college welding course for a few weeks - they had crap helmets, but brilliant all-singing, all-dancing inverters. Having experienced that kit I can now make some kind of comparative judgement regarding my own. Sometimes welding problems are down to technique, and sometimes the problem lies with the welding plant, and I think it's mighty useful to be able to judge from experience which is which. 'best, Colin| 20582|20582|2009-06-07 08:31:30|prairiemaidca|Dry exhaust exit|Hi Paul; On Prairie Maid I have the exhaust exit fairly high on the transom through a S.S. nipple surrounded by a S.S. doughnut. I fabricated a S.S. pipe that has a curve in it so that it is actually has a slope downward to prevent any condensation or sea water from wanting to drip inward towards the flex pipe and muffler. I will be adding a flapper of some kind to the outside to stop large following seas from flowing up into the exit nipple. I used a piece of large diameter S.S. pipe as a conduit for the exhaust pipe to exit the engine box. It and the rest of the pipe is insulated with some special high temp insulation that I scrounged up. The pipe is able to slide through the insulation in the larger dia. allowing for any movement of the engine, especially when you start her up, and yet makes a good seal to help with any interior noise. Brent convinced me to go with a dry system and I'm very happy with the low volume comming from the pipe. Lots of the diesel pickups out here make way more noise. Martin...| 20583|20583|2009-06-07 10:25:48|SHANE ROTHWELL|Choice of a welder & Big Brother|Hey guys, check out PCWEBTEAM@..." precedes the charter of rights b> specifically mentions human beings and property c> ALL acts of parlament MUST pass a board/commitie to INSURE that the human rights of Canadians are not infringed by the proposed Act. Nothing like that with the 'charter of misleading bullshit'. Re: your rights & thugs with guns. The point is THEY have guns and just like Adolf's boys, they have learned that a gun to your temple will get a man to comply every time. My only question is, what's the differance between Adolf's mob and the one runnign this country? \ Shane __________________________________________________________________ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 20584|20546|2009-06-07 12:06:28|theboilerflue|Re: Choice of welder|Strange Metal? That must be that one of those 3x3 angle irons that is stainless on one side and mild steel on the other? it seemed like maybe one of those explosion welded metals that have been talked about? I found a chunk of it with all the scrap and it seemed like one side was bevelled like for a blade of some type? Found at the scrap yard i imagine? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello Brent, > Thanks for the reply. Do you mean that any 225 amp AC welder will do? I think Alex told me that for his boat you used a Lincoln AC welder, and a DC welder for some strange metal you found on the keel...Now a Lincoln machine is not a cheap one, even for AC welder. I cannot find them locally any cheap. ANd even in the USA they seem expensive in comparison...Alex tells me you have a lot of experience with many welding machines. Are in your opinion all equivalent and none any easier to weld or with better results, even cheap brands sold in big home improvement chains, probably made in china? If so, I guess I had bad luck in the inverter I got and it is really faulty or just inadequate (open voltage rating, duty cycle of 110 amp at 60% etc...). > Regards, > Martin > | 20585|20561|2009-06-07 13:10:49|ANDREW AIREY|Rust in steel boats|It probably would have if it had been done some years previous.Classic case of Caveat Emptor.The hull was partially floored and dry inside and the worst bits were under the flooring.Whether this had been put down to conceal the problems is something I've wondered about since.Even with the overplating it's still within budget and at least we've been able to pay for it a bit at a time.I think that Dutch Barge practice was to tar the inside of the bilges.Boat is now under cover cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 20586|20546|2009-06-07 16:55:54|edward_stoneuk|Re: Choice of welder|Hi Martin, I had a look at my DC inverter welder today. Its plate says: at 35% duty; 180 Amps, 27.2 Volts, 6.8 KVA, at 60% duty; 140 Amps 25.4 Volts, 4.9 KVA, and at 100% duty; 115 Amps, 24.6 Volts 3.9 KVA. The open circuit volyage Uo is 55 Volts. The dia 3.2 mm E6010 rods I tried unsuccessfully were Thyssen Cel 70. It was the Thyssen technical rep who knowing I had a small inverter welder advised me to check the open circuit voltage. I used to have the Thyssen welding rod catalogue. It stated if rods were suitable for low OCV welders. Not all of its 6013 range were. Oddly I have some Nexus dia 2.5 mm 309L rods that work a treat at 70 amps or on wery thin sheet down to 40 or 50 volts and their packet states 70 OCV minimum. I looked at the specs for the Decaweld MOS Evo 168 onthe web, it is as you say 75 open circuit voltage. That seems high in relation to the rest of the specification and might be a typo or an exaggeration. I don't know how you could check the open circuit voltage. Colin might know. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello Ted, > Thank you for the info. It could well be it. Looking at the specs for the machine (a decaweld MOS Evo 168) I read 75 Volts open voltage, 150 AMp at 30% duty and 110 AMp at 60%, and usable for up to 4mm electrodes. Now the latter I hardly think it can be true for my machine: I tried a 3.2mm rod for a job at the farm (joining two 10mm plates at right angle but with about 3mm gap in some places) and the machine could not fire it properly (it made a subdued hissing sound most of the time instead of a frying and crackling sound) besides putting a lot of slag inside the weld. > I wish I could repair it. But I would have to make a trip to where it was bought, and I don't think the cost of that and the repair will pay for itself. > Usually on the rods I buy for the farm jobs, the E6013, it is not mentioned the open voltage requirements on the package. They are Cevik brand, one found in one of the big warehouses for DIY and home improvement locally (Leroy Merlin, a french chain I think but the rod is made in Italy I think). > As you say, when I go to a specialized shop, they don't know much either...and dificult to say when to trust them in what they say... > > Regards, > martin > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > > Hi mllmag, > > > > Some types of welders even though the welder has the amperes will give weaker and intermittent flow with some types of rod as you describe. It happened to me with dia 3.2mm 6010/6011 rods, they just would not work well. After talking to welder friends who didn't know why, I spoke to a knowledgable technical chap from Thyssen, the company who made the rods, and after being told my type of welder, a small inverter one similar to yours, he said check the welder's open circuit voltage. I did and it was too low for the type of rods I was trying. I changed rods after checking their open circuit volyage requirement and now all is well. I changed to dia 3.2mm 6013, but not all types of them work well so there was some trial and error. > > > > Be aware that some welders and welding supplies company employees know little or nothing about open circuit voltage and may try to ridicule or patronise you. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > > > Hello everybody, > > > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > > > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > > > Martin > > > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > > > > > > | 20587|20546|2009-06-07 17:49:16|Wesley Cox|Re: Choice of welder|Open circuit voltage is a direct measurement of the voltage between the stinger and ground while not welding, using a volt meter on either the AC or DC scale according to the welder. Higher OCV is advantageous to initiate a smooth arc and the voltage will drop as the load of welding is applied to the circuit. ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 3:55 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder Hi Martin, I had a look at my DC inverter welder today. Its plate says: at 35% duty; 180 Amps, 27.2 Volts, 6.8 KVA, at 60% duty; 140 Amps 25.4 Volts, 4.9 KVA, and at 100% duty; 115 Amps, 24.6 Volts 3.9 KVA. The open circuit volyage Uo is 55 Volts. The dia 3.2 mm E6010 rods I tried unsuccessfully were Thyssen Cel 70. It was the Thyssen technical rep who knowing I had a small inverter welder advised me to check the open circuit voltage. I used to have the Thyssen welding rod catalogue. It stated if rods were suitable for low OCV welders. Not all of its 6013 range were. Oddly I have some Nexus dia 2.5 mm 309L rods that work a treat at 70 amps or on wery thin sheet down to 40 or 50 volts and their packet states 70 OCV minimum. I looked at the specs for the Decaweld MOS Evo 168 onthe web, it is as you say 75 open circuit voltage. That seems high in relation to the rest of the specification and might be a typo or an exaggeration. I don't know how you could check the open circuit voltage. Colin might know. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello Ted, > Thank you for the info. It could well be it. Looking at the specs for the machine (a decaweld MOS Evo 168) I read 75 Volts open voltage, 150 AMp at 30% duty and 110 AMp at 60%, and usable for up to 4mm electrodes. Now the latter I hardly think it can be true for my machine: I tried a 3.2mm rod for a job at the farm (joining two 10mm plates at right angle but with about 3mm gap in some places) and the machine could not fire it properly (it made a subdued hissing sound most of the time instead of a frying and crackling sound) besides putting a lot of slag inside the weld. > I wish I could repair it. But I would have to make a trip to where it was bought, and I don't think the cost of that and the repair will pay for itself. > Usually on the rods I buy for the farm jobs, the E6013, it is not mentioned the open voltage requirements on the package. They are Cevik brand, one found in one of the big warehouses for DIY and home improvement locally (Leroy Merlin, a french chain I think but the rod is made in Italy I think). > As you say, when I go to a specialized shop, they don't know much either...and dificult to say when to trust them in what they say... > > Regards, > martin > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > > Hi mllmag, > > > > Some types of welders even though the welder has the amperes will give weaker and intermittent flow with some types of rod as you describe. It happened to me with dia 3.2mm 6010/6011 rods, they just would not work well. After talking to welder friends who didn't know why, I spoke to a knowledgable technical chap from Thyssen, the company who made the rods, and after being told my type of welder, a small inverter one similar to yours, he said check the welder's open circuit voltage. I did and it was too low for the type of rods I was trying. I changed rods after checking their open circuit volyage requirement and now all is well. I changed to dia 3.2mm 6013, but not all types of them work well so there was some trial and error. > > > > Be aware that some welders and welding supplies company employees know little or nothing about open circuit voltage and may try to ridicule or patronise you. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > > > Hello everybody, > > > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > > > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > > > Martin > > > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.55/2160 - Release Date: 06/07/09 05:53:00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20588|20546|2009-06-07 18:46:13|will jones|Re: Choice of welder|No you don't need a shielding gas for carbon steel, so don't worry about the wind.  Just get 0.035 flux core wire and you are in business with a MIG.  Flux core welds are just as strong.  If you can't get good penetration due to lack of practice, just hit the edge of one of the plates with a grinder and put on a little bevel.  There is nothing wrong with this.  Alternatively, just go over the welds on the backside after you bend the boat up. You should practice welding anyway.  Any of the welders that you are going to get under $1500US are going to require some practice on your part to get a fully penetrating weld through 3/16-1/4" carbon steel plate.  If you can do this with a 200-225A stick welder, you can do it with a 180A Clarke MIG.  I've got both in the garage and with some practice can run fully penetrating beads.  I haven't done any in a while, so I'll have to burn some steel.  Besides, its always fun to burn steel. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Sat, 6/6/09, mllmag wrote: From: mllmag Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 6, 2009, 5:55 PM Hello, Thanks. I'll look after this Clarke welder to see if I can find one that I can buy. But a MIG machine needs gas bottles and maybe that is prohibitive for an amateur. Or can it be used with a flux-core? I never could find a source explaining if the flux-core MIG welding is as good as regular MIG welding with gas...Anyway, it is said (Brent too)that MIG cannot be trusted for its quality welds specially if there is wind...BUt I think I would build inside. Funny how on ebay some MIG machines are actually cheaper than many inverters... I don't know why reputable machines (Lincoln, Miller) are so expensive, so I thought maybe they are better welders. From what you say this does not have to be so. Regards, Marti [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20589|20497|2009-06-08 01:33:13|future boat owner|Re: Hoping to view Brentboats|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Garth > There are several .................... > Brent Thanks for the extensive list Brent. I have heard back from several people who are willing to show their boats and are most generous. I'm hoping that I can meet you and maybe network with a few others when we get there as I really want to check out interiors and don't want to do B&E's. I have spoken with Martin (Prairie Maid) here and I think there is at least I other builder. I haven't yet decided whether to build in Edmonton or at the coast (fast track). Many factors involved I'd like to discuss. Do you know where you will be next week? Fair winds Garth Future sv Wholly Chinook| 20590|20590|2009-06-08 04:24:26|dejongralph|Lead for metric 31'|Brent, Here in Belgium the steel for the hull would be 4 mm and for the deck and cabin 3 mm. A metric hull would than be 19 % lighter than a not metric one, the deck 6 %. 3/16 4.7625 4 119,1% 1/8 3,175 3 105,8% What would you advise on the amount of lead to use for your metric 31'? Thank you, Ralph| 20591|20590|2009-06-08 05:41:27|David Frantz|Re: Lead for metric 31'|Not Brent here but thought I'd comment. Aren't you going the wrong way with your sizes? Especially the 4mm stock. Mind you I'm not a navel engineer, it just that I avoid under sizing any thing I build as a normal course. I'm sure Brent will chime in when he wakes up. It could just be me and my desire to always over do it no mater what I'm working on. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 8, 2009, at 4:23 AM, dejongralph wrote: > Brent, > > Here in Belgium the steel for the hull would be 4 mm and for the > deck and cabin 3 mm. > > A metric hull would than be 19 % lighter than a not metric one, the > deck 6 %. > > 3/16 4.7625 4 119,1% > 1/8 3,175 3 105,8% > > What would you advise on the amount of lead to use for your metric > 31'? > > Thank you, > > Ralph > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20592|20546|2009-06-08 06:46:57|edward_stoneuk|Re: Choice of welder|Thanks Wesley, I was wondering if one could do that but didn't want to try lest the high amps fried my multimeter. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > Open circuit voltage is a direct measurement of the voltage between the stinger and ground while not welding, using a volt meter on either the AC or DC scale according to the welder. Higher OCV is advantageous to initiate a smooth arc and the voltage will drop as the load of welding is applied to the circuit. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: edward_stoneuk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 3:55 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder > > > > > > Hi Martin, > > I had a look at my DC inverter welder today. Its plate says: > > at 35% duty; 180 Amps, 27.2 Volts, 6.8 KVA, > > at 60% duty; 140 Amps 25.4 Volts, 4.9 KVA, > > and at 100% duty; 115 Amps, 24.6 Volts 3.9 KVA. > > The open circuit volyage Uo is 55 Volts. > > The dia 3.2 mm E6010 rods I tried unsuccessfully were Thyssen Cel 70. It was the Thyssen technical rep who knowing I had a small inverter welder advised me to check the open circuit voltage. I used to have the Thyssen welding rod catalogue. It stated if rods were suitable for low OCV welders. Not all of its 6013 range were. > > Oddly I have some Nexus dia 2.5 mm 309L rods that work a treat at 70 amps or on wery thin sheet down to 40 or 50 volts and their packet states 70 OCV minimum. > > I looked at the specs for the Decaweld MOS Evo 168 onthe web, it is as you say 75 open circuit voltage. That seems high in relation to the rest of the specification and might be a typo or an exaggeration. I don't know how you could check the open circuit voltage. Colin might know. > > Regards, > > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > Hello Ted, > > Thank you for the info. It could well be it. Looking at the specs for the machine (a decaweld MOS Evo 168) I read 75 Volts open voltage, 150 AMp at 30% duty and 110 AMp at 60%, and usable for up to 4mm electrodes. Now the latter I hardly think it can be true for my machine: I tried a 3.2mm rod for a job at the farm (joining two 10mm plates at right angle but with about 3mm gap in some places) and the machine could not fire it properly (it made a subdued hissing sound most of the time instead of a frying and crackling sound) besides putting a lot of slag inside the weld. > > I wish I could repair it. But I would have to make a trip to where it was bought, and I don't think the cost of that and the repair will pay for itself. > > Usually on the rods I buy for the farm jobs, the E6013, it is not mentioned the open voltage requirements on the package. They are Cevik brand, one found in one of the big warehouses for DIY and home improvement locally (Leroy Merlin, a french chain I think but the rod is made in Italy I think). > > As you say, when I go to a specialized shop, they don't know much either...and dificult to say when to trust them in what they say... > > > > Regards, > > martin > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > > > > Hi mllmag, > > > > > > Some types of welders even though the welder has the amperes will give weaker and intermittent flow with some types of rod as you describe. It happened to me with dia 3.2mm 6010/6011 rods, they just would not work well. After talking to welder friends who didn't know why, I spoke to a knowledgable technical chap from Thyssen, the company who made the rods, and after being told my type of welder, a small inverter one similar to yours, he said check the welder's open circuit voltage. I did and it was too low for the type of rods I was trying. I changed rods after checking their open circuit volyage requirement and now all is well. I changed to dia 3.2mm 6013, but not all types of them work well so there was some trial and error. > > > > > > Be aware that some welders and welding supplies company employees know little or nothing about open circuit voltage and may try to ridicule or patronise you. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello everybody, > > > > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > > > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > > > > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > > > > Martin > > > > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.55/2160 - Release Date: 06/07/09 05:53:00 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20593|20590|2009-06-08 08:17:56|Shane Duncan|Re: Lead for metric 31'|  A majority of 30 to 34 foot steel yachts built in New Zealand and Australia are built using 4mm, for the hull and 3mm for the cabin there are very few 30 foot steel yachts built using 5mm steel in Australia i'm using 4mm steel for my 31 foot BS cheers shane  --- On Mon, 8/6/09, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Lead for metric 31' To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Monday, 8 June, 2009, 9:41 AM Not Brent here but thought I'd comment.   Aren't you going the wrong  way with your sizes?   Especially the 4mm stock. Mind you I'm not a navel engineer, it just that I avoid under sizing  any thing I build as a normal course.   I'm sure Brent will chime in  when he wakes up.   It could just be me and my desire to always over  do it no mater what I'm working on. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 8, 2009, at 4:23 AM, dejongralph wrote: > Brent, > > Here in Belgium the steel for the hull would be 4 mm and for the  > deck and cabin 3 mm. > > A metric hull would than be 19 % lighter than a not metric one, the  > deck 6 %. > > 3/16    4.7625    4    119,1% > 1/8    3,175    3    105,8% > > What would you advise on the amount of lead to use for your metric  > 31'? > > Thank you, > > Ralph > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Need a Holiday? Win a $10,000 Holiday of your choice. Enter now.http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJxN2x2ZmNpBF9zAzIwMjM2MTY2MTMEdG1fZG1lY2gDVGV4dCBMaW5rBHRtX2xuawNVMTEwMzk3NwR0bV9uZXQDWWFob28hBHRtX3BvcwN0YWdsaW5lBHRtX3BwdHkDYXVueg--/SIG=14600t3ni/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/creativeholidays/*http%3A//au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/%3Fp1=other%26p2=au%26p3=mailtagline [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20594|20590|2009-06-08 09:10:45|martin demers|Re: Lead for metric 31'|My 37ft yacht is made of 1/8in thick plate(not a Swain but a classic)Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: shaneduncan206@... Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 05:17:47 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Lead for metric 31' A majority of 30 to 34 foot steel yachts built in New Zealand and Australia are built using 4mm, for the hull and 3mm for the cabin there are very few 30 foot steel yachts built using 5mm steel in Australia i'm using 4mm steel for my 31 foot BS cheers shane --- On Mon, 8/6/09, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Lead for metric 31' To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Received: Monday, 8 June, 2009, 9:41 AM Not Brent here but thought I'd comment. Aren't you going the wrong way with your sizes? Especially the 4mm stock. Mind you I'm not a navel engineer, it just that I avoid under sizing any thing I build as a normal course. I'm sure Brent will chime in when he wakes up. It could just be me and my desire to always over do it no mater what I'm working on. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 8, 2009, at 4:23 AM, dejongralph wrote: > Brent, > > Here in Belgium the steel for the hull would be 4 mm and for the > deck and cabin 3 mm. > > A metric hull would than be 19 % lighter than a not metric one, the > deck 6 %. > > 3/16 4.7625 4 119,1% > 1/8 3,175 3 105,8% > > What would you advise on the amount of lead to use for your metric > 31'? > > Thank you, > > Ralph > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links Need a Holiday? Win a $10,000 Holiday of your choice. Enter now.http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJxN2x2ZmNpBF9zAzIwMjM2MTY2MTMEdG1fZG1lY2gDVGV4dCBMaW5rBHRtX2xuawNVMTEwMzk3NwR0bV9uZXQDWWFob28hBHRtX3BvcwN0YWdsaW5lBHRtX3BwdHkDYXVueg--/SIG=14600t3ni/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/creativeholidays/*http%3A//au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/%3Fp1=other%26p2=au%26p3=mailtagline [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Attention à tous les Humains. Nous sommes vos photos. Libérez-nous de vos disques durs. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666050 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20595|20595|2009-06-08 16:05:53|heretic_37ft|Need to Contact Karl and Brent|Hi Brent and Karl: I just had a new Catamaran built. Will be in BC this summer on my trip to Alaska. Hulls are aluminum: http://krahenbuhl.net/pictures/09.06.08-2100A-install/100_0487.jpg Would like to stop by and say hello to you and Karl! How do I contact you folks once there? Will hopefully sail my BS 36 next summer south from Hawaii to Fiji. Your emails are being rejected... Thank you for all the help! Respectfully, The Heretic| 20596|20590|2009-06-08 16:10:40|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Lead for metric 31'|David - I believe it´s something Brent himself allowed.... ;] In general, steel hulls are vastly overbuilt. The reason for using 4 mm rather than 2.5 or 3 mm, is that the thinner plate is hard to double weld, and hard to keep fair. There is a not an absolute reason for having the thickness of the plate .... Even a 3 mm hull plated in steel would be around 6x stronger than a typical fiberglass hull, which are 6-10 mm in thckness in their thinnest places, typically. A steel hull is generally going to be vastly more puncture resistant. A second reason why somewhat thicker hulls are good is that the hull, overall, is the one thing you cannot upsize later. Corrosion, generally due to poor maintenance, will eat at the hull. A thicker hull will resist this far longer. As the others said, 4 mm is plenty for a lot of boat ... until you get to the very large ones. The mass of the plate, at the bottom, is good, thus a thicker hull - is easier to build fair - is just about the same cost - is the same or less work (beause it´s easier) - contributes to stability (slight effect, at the end of the day) Note that you may easily spend more on grinding discs and welding rods than the difference between a 4 mm or 4.5 mm hull thickness. The cost of the steel is your least problem, imho. David Frantz wrote: > > > Not Brent here but thought I'd comment. Aren't you going the wrong > way with your sizes? Especially the 4mm stock. > > Mind you I'm not a navel engineer, it just that I avoid under sizing > any thing I build as a normal course. I'm sure Brent will chime in > when he wakes up. It could just be me and my desire to always over > do it no mater what I'm working on. > > David A Frantz > | 20597|20595|2009-06-08 23:37:29|martin demers|Re: Need to Contact Karl and Brent|where will you install the mast??? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: heretic_37ft@... Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:05:12 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Need to Contact Karl and Brent Hi Brent and Karl: I just had a new Catamaran built. Will be in BC this summer on my trip to Alaska. Hulls are aluminum: http://krahenbuhl.net/pictures/09.06.08-2100A-install/100_0487.jpg Would like to stop by and say hello to you and Karl! How do I contact you folks once there? Will hopefully sail my BS 36 next summer south from Hawaii to Fiji. Your emails are being rejected... Thank you for all the help! Respectfully, The Heretic _________________________________________________________________ Avec Windows Live, vous gardez le contact avec tous vos amis au même endroit. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660830 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20598|20598|2009-06-09 03:18:09|juliaperryets|New Freebies June 09|Dear Member As a special treat for members, we have found another great page full of free-stuff you can collect INSTANTLY! There is so much to grab, its definately worth the visit. Simply click on the link below and it will take you directly to this amazing freebie page! http://groups.google.com/group/freebiepeople/web/freebies-june-09 If you can't find this 'temporary' page, visit: FreebieTelegraph (dot com), and there you will find more freebies, and a link to the LATEST ones! Thank you for all your support!| 20599|20595|2009-06-09 08:36:27|heretic_37ft|Re: Need to Contact Karl and Brent|The mast is very small and the sails operate in the longitudinal not vertical. > where will you install the mast??? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: heretic_37ft@... > Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:05:12 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Need to Contact Karl and Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent and Karl: > > > > I just had a new Catamaran built. Will be in BC this summer on my > > trip to Alaska. Hulls are aluminum: > > > > http://krahenbuhl.net/pictures/09.06.08-2100A-install/100_0487.jpg > > > > Would like to stop by and say hello to you and Karl! How do I contact > > you folks once there? > > > > Will hopefully sail my BS 36 next summer south from Hawaii to Fiji. > > > > Your emails are being rejected... > > > > Thank you for all the help! > > > > Respectfully, > > The Heretic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Avec Windows Live, vous gardez le contact avec tous vos amis au même endroit. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660830 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20600|20546|2009-06-09 12:38:28|Wesley Cox|Re: Choice of welder|The high current of welding is because of the very low resistance in the secondary, welding, circuit. The resistance of the circuit internal to the welder is very low, likewise that of the cables and the rod. I just checked a 3/32" 6010 rod, 0.4 ohms by my meter. The resistance of a voltmeter is ideally infinite in order to not affect the measurement. Infinite resistance isn't possible, so we settle for very high resistance. I don't have two meters to check the resistance, but suppose 10 Mohm for estimation purposes and 75 V on the welder, open circuit, then the current = voltage / resistance = 75 / 10,000,000 = very small current. I just checked my Lincoln 225 ac/dc out of curiosity. The OCV is steady at 77-78 V from the lowest setting up to just above mid range then it decreases to 56 V at the highest setting, this on DC+. The numbers are very similar for ac, with the voltmeter measuring ac. At the highest dc+ setting, I measured 56 V dc but 118 V ac, indicating the dc current is not very clean, but it does not need to be for welding. To address the original question, I have a Lincoln 225 ac only and 225 ac/dc. Both have been fantastic for me. The ac is about 13 years old and the dc about 10. I've used the hell out of both with no problems and great welds every time. The ac box cost $200 at the time and the dc $425. I'm sure prices have gone up, of course. I had an electrician check the current on the power cord while I welded at a job site once. With the ac/dc box on the second to highest setting, 200 A AC and I forget what DC, welding DC, the primary circuit, the cord that plugs in, was drawing 49 A. It does then require a 50 A circuit to weld at the higher settings, but I have used a 30 A circuit using plug adapters I made with male and female ends and short lengths of cord, at lower settings. One just has to be VERY careful to keep the setting low in that situation, not recommended by any means. ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 5:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder Thanks Wesley, I was wondering if one could do that but didn't want to try lest the high amps fried my multimeter. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > Open circuit voltage is a direct measurement of the voltage between the stinger and ground while not welding, using a volt meter on either the AC or DC scale according to the welder. Higher OCV is advantageous to initiate a smooth arc and the voltage will drop as the load of welding is applied to the circuit. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: edward_stoneuk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 3:55 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder > > > > > > Hi Martin, > > I had a look at my DC inverter welder today. Its plate says: > > at 35% duty; 180 Amps, 27.2 Volts, 6.8 KVA, > > at 60% duty; 140 Amps 25.4 Volts, 4.9 KVA, > > and at 100% duty; 115 Amps, 24.6 Volts 3.9 KVA. > > The open circuit volyage Uo is 55 Volts. > > The dia 3.2 mm E6010 rods I tried unsuccessfully were Thyssen Cel 70. It was the Thyssen technical rep who knowing I had a small inverter welder advised me to check the open circuit voltage. I used to have the Thyssen welding rod catalogue. It stated if rods were suitable for low OCV welders. Not all of its 6013 range were. > > Oddly I have some Nexus dia 2.5 mm 309L rods that work a treat at 70 amps or on wery thin sheet down to 40 or 50 volts and their packet states 70 OCV minimum. > > I looked at the specs for the Decaweld MOS Evo 168 onthe web, it is as you say 75 open circuit voltage. That seems high in relation to the rest of the specification and might be a typo or an exaggeration. I don't know how you could check the open circuit voltage. Colin might know. > > Regards, > > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > Hello Ted, > > Thank you for the info. It could well be it. Looking at the specs for the machine (a decaweld MOS Evo 168) I read 75 Volts open voltage, 150 AMp at 30% duty and 110 AMp at 60%, and usable for up to 4mm electrodes. Now the latter I hardly think it can be true for my machine: I tried a 3.2mm rod for a job at the farm (joining two 10mm plates at right angle but with about 3mm gap in some places) and the machine could not fire it properly (it made a subdued hissing sound most of the time instead of a frying and crackling sound) besides putting a lot of slag inside the weld. > > I wish I could repair it. But I would have to make a trip to where it was bought, and I don't think the cost of that and the repair will pay for itself. > > Usually on the rods I buy for the farm jobs, the E6013, it is not mentioned the open voltage requirements on the package. They are Cevik brand, one found in one of the big warehouses for DIY and home improvement locally (Leroy Merlin, a french chain I think but the rod is made in Italy I think). > > As you say, when I go to a specialized shop, they don't know much either...and dificult to say when to trust them in what they say... > > > > Regards, > > martin > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > > > > Hi mllmag, > > > > > > Some types of welders even though the welder has the amperes will give weaker and intermittent flow with some types of rod as you describe. It happened to me with dia 3.2mm 6010/6011 rods, they just would not work well. After talking to welder friends who didn't know why, I spoke to a knowledgable technical chap from Thyssen, the company who made the rods, and after being told my type of welder, a small inverter one similar to yours, he said check the welder's open circuit voltage. I did and it was too low for the type of rods I was trying. I changed rods after checking their open circuit volyage requirement and now all is well. I changed to dia 3.2mm 6013, but not all types of them work well so there was some trial and error. > > > > > > Be aware that some welders and welding supplies company employees know little or nothing about open circuit voltage and may try to ridicule or patronise you. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello everybody, > > > > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > > > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > > > > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > > > > Martin > > > > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.55/2160 - Release Date: 06/07/09 05:53:00 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.56/2162 - Release Date: 06/08/09 06:01:00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20601|20562|2009-06-09 14:11:24|mark hamill|Re: Foam Backed Headliner|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Anyone know the source of the headliners u see in higher end boats? Looks like leather, has or looks to have small pin holes in it. U used to see it in airplanes. > I would like to find a liner that is substantially foam backed if possible. > I worked at a yacht company and the headliners and sideliners were made of "naughahyde" (that leathery looking plastic stuff often used in boat and car upholstery) which was glued together with a contact cement sprayed on both sides to foam sheets of whatever thickness. It was layed out on a sheet of ply. I remember that one time it fell off the ceiling due to a glue problem--however it was nice to bump ones head on instead of a hard edge.| 20602|20590|2009-06-09 16:58:21|aku.ankka|Re: Lead for metric 31'|Do you think that Brent are crazy, when he wrote this: "Metric is great for the 31, 4mm for the hull, 3mm for the decks and cabin and 6mm for the keels. 4 mm is between 3/16th and 1/8th perfect for the 31 .I wish we could get it here." It's orginal here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/13085 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Not Brent here but thought I'd comment. Aren't you going the wrong > way with your sizes? Especially the 4mm stock. > > Mind you I'm not a navel engineer, it just that I avoid under sizing > any thing I build as a normal course. I'm sure Brent will chime in > when he wakes up. It could just be me and my desire to always over > do it no mater what I'm working on. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jun 8, 2009, at 4:23 AM, dejongralph wrote: > > > Brent, > > > > Here in Belgium the steel for the hull would be 4 mm and for the > > deck and cabin 3 mm. > > > > A metric hull would than be 19 % lighter than a not metric one, the > > deck 6 %. > > > > 3/16 4.7625 4 119,1% > > 1/8 3,175 3 105,8% > > > > What would you advise on the amount of lead to use for your metric > > 31'? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Ralph > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 20603|20546|2009-06-09 18:19:41|mllmag|Re: Choice of welder|Hello Will, Thanks for the valuable info. So using flux core in MIG welding gives the same strenght as welding with a shielding gas. That's very interesting (no book I could find compared both). Also you say that for carbon steel I shouldn't be worried about the wind. Why? I think I read that melted steel oxidizes rapidly if there is no gas or slag protection and that was very bad for the final quality of the weld. SOmehow this does not happen with carbon steel? If so, that good be very good news, since it seems MIG welding is easier and machines seem to be more easily available for whatever reason...I found a Lincoln MIG that seems interesting (Lincoln POWER MIG 180C at an offer that is similar to a reputable brand inverter). I haven't founa a Clarke locally, but still looking. Regarding penetration with a MIG, if one suspects it is the case, isn't just solved by incresing the wire feeder velocity and/or going slower making the weld, so it is really not difficult? (the usual stick 6013 also has some problems in penetration). I think I read the problem with MIG is that welds look nice almost always (except when using flux core, I am told?) and it is difficult to know if the penetration is enough or not, whereas in stick welding it is clearer by the appearance of the weld. Is that so? Thank you, Marti| 20604|20546|2009-06-09 18:23:31|mllmag|Re: Choice of welder|Hello Ted, Thank you for the specs. Is there any way I can find out if there is anything wrong with my Decaweld welder like not enough current or voltage etc...? From other posts I can meusure the open voltage directly while not welding and see if it is 75 Volts as stated. Anything else? Thank you, Marti| 20605|20605|2009-06-09 18:38:31|mllmag|Quotation for steel|Hello, I got a quotation for the price of steel and I would like to ask to the group if it seems reasonable. For the price of the plates they would charge me 0,90 Eu/Kg (that's about 1.27US$/Kg or 0.58US$/Pound or 0.64 CAD$/Pound), for whatever thickness (3,4,6,12 mm). One problem is that they only serve 3metres (9.8 feet) or 6m (19 feet) long by 1.5metres(4.9feet) width maximum, so that would mean a lot of cutting and welding to make for the sizes Brent gives in his list, specially if one wants to minimize waste. Is this usual? In Brent's book he mentions to have to weld in order to have widths greater than 2.5m, but not for as low as 1.5m... Thank you, Marti| 20606|20546|2009-06-10 06:12:38|edward_stoneuk|Re: Choice of welder|Hi Marti, I am sorry but I am not that knowledgable about electrics. Others on this site know more than me. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello Ted, > Thank you for the specs. Is there any way I can find out if there is anything wrong with my Decaweld welder like not enough current or voltage etc...? From other posts I can meusure the open voltage directly while not welding and see if it is 75 Volts as stated. Anything else? > Thank you, > Marti > | 20607|20605|2009-06-10 06:20:04|edward_stoneuk|Re: Quotation for steel|Hi Marti, You may be able to get bigger sheets or plates if you contact a steel supplier that is near to where steel boats, such as fishing boats are built or repaired. I should get several quotes if you can as steel salesmen will try to get the best price they can, and it can vary quite a lot. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello, > I got a quotation for the price of steel and I would like to ask to the group if it seems reasonable. > For the price of the plates they would charge me 0,90 Eu/Kg (that's about 1.27US$/Kg or 0.58US$/Pound or 0.64 CAD$/Pound), for whatever thickness (3,4,6,12 mm). One problem is that they only serve 3metres (9.8 feet) or 6m (19 feet) long by 1.5metres(4.9feet) width maximum, so that would mean a lot of cutting and welding to make for the sizes Brent gives in his list, specially if one wants to minimize waste. Is this usual? In Brent's book he mentions to have to weld in order to have widths greater than 2.5m, but not for as low as 1.5m... > Thank you, > Marti > | 20608|20605|2009-06-10 07:44:43|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Quotation for steel|I think Your price is pretty good ! For how many tons ? mllmag wrote: > > > Hello, > I got a quotation for the price of steel and I would like to ask to > the group if it seems reasonable. > For the price of the plates they would charge me 0,90 Eu/Kg (that's > about 1.27US$/Kg or 0.58US$/Pound or 0.64 CAD$/Pound), for whatever > thickness (3,4,6,12 mm). One problem is that they only serve 3metres > (9.8 feet) or 6m (19 feet) long by 1.5metres(4.9feet) width maximum, > so that would mean a lot of cutting and welding to make for the sizes > Brent gives in his list, specially if one wants to minimize waste. Is > this usual? In Brent's book he mentions to have to weld in order to > have widths greater than 2.5m, but not for as low as 1.5m... > Thank you, > Marti > > | 20609|20605|2009-06-10 09:43:54|ANDREW AIREY|Quotation for steel|I think I'd try elsewhere it sounds expensive.Where are you based and what steel have you specified.Try someone who decoils their own plates cheers Andy Airey(UK) Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 20610|20546|2009-06-10 11:03:38|will jones|Re: Choice of welder|Hello Will, >So using flux core in MIG welding gives the same strength as welding with a shielding gas. Easy answer, yes.  Given that one creates the weld properly, by penetrating the steel to create a good weld with wire of the same physical and chemical properties, the welds will be of roughly equal strength.  The strength comes from the choice of wire properties and good welding technique.  >I think I read that melted steel oxidizes rapidly if there is no gas or slag protection and that was very bad for the final quality of the weld. True.  Gas shielding and flux core both provide this protection. >Somehow this does not happen with carbon steel? No, still an issue. MIG minimizes a number of welding issues that one has with stick welding.  Do they go away? No, you still have them.  Does gas shielded MIG yield a better weld?  Yes, under right conditions.  How much better of a weld does gas shielding give?  For carbon steel in the range of thicknesses applicable to this type of building, not much.  Not worth the price to support using a shielding gas.  Poor technique will be of greater concern over issues with the filler material and weld matrix.  MIG's heat is much more localized than stick, the arc area is smaller and less filler is being delivered at once.  This makes it easier for the flux core to gas off and protect the weld from hydrogen and oxygen. There are several aspects to strength of a weld.  One must also think of the purpose of the weld, other than just joining steel or aluminum or plastic or some alloy.  It is a combination of material being welded, choice of filler, delivery of filler (rod or wire or other) and desired final properties of the weld.  Too much to cover here. My response is fairly generic.  Carbon steel is about the easiest steel to weld with few problems that mostly fall into issues with technique. Gas shielding really pays off with different alloys, stainless and aluminum.  If you want a really pretty weld on top with every day carbon steel, then spring for gas.  This is a boat, you want a good weld to join steel and are going to grind any joints smooth on the outside.  Keep your objectives in perspective. >Also you say that for carbon steel I shouldn't be worried about the wind. Why?  Wind is a matter of degrees.  You have to be concerned with any wind with shielded and moderate to high winds with flux core. A breeze or even light wind is nice with flux core.  Helps keep you cool, but it won't really affect the weld.  Now, if I lived in Nebraska where the winds are very strong, I might put a 1/2 piece of  plywood to block wind and dust with flux core welding outside.  >Regarding penetration with a MIG, if one suspects it is the case, isn't just solved by incresing the wire feeder velocity and/or going slower making the weld, so it is really not difficult?  and it is difficult to know if the penetration is enough or not, whereas in stick welding it is clearer by the appearance of the weld. Is that so? This is technique and welder capabilities.  With 220V, 180-225A welders (stick or MIG) you are at the reasonable operating limit of the welders with 6mm or 0.25" steel.  Single pass penetration takes very good technique, which takes quite a bit of practice.  You should be able to see if you have fully penetrated.  If you have a lot of practice and good technique, you will recognize the backside of a weld as fully penetrating.   You can easily check by drilling a 6mm or 0.25" hole and checking your weld.  You can just weld the hole shut.  It will be a while before you could do a fully penetrating, single pass, with this level of welder. All in all for this level of welder (220V 180-225A, AC) let me stummarize some observations over 30 years.  Or this is paint a bullseye on my comments. 1) Forget single pass for 1/4" or 6mm, unless you have a lot of practice and someone to review your welds.  2) Just kiss the edges with a grinder before welding, if you can. 3) A good welder, who understands their equipment and technique limitations will back weld.  A good welder will know if the weld needs back welded or not.  So if you do not know, plan on back welding.  You can bevel an edge, but you will probably still need to back weld and you will be wasting wire or rod.  I've got more respect for someone who understands this.  I am not trying to down play beveling, I do it when needed.  Given the choice for joining plates of this thickness with welders of this class, I would back weld before beveling.  If we were out at 1/2" or  12mm, I would bevel slightly and probably back weld.  Depends on what my welds looked liked and this would change as I got back into the swing of things. It really is about the limitations of the equipment and your skills.  I know what a fully penetrating weld looks like and my Clarke 180en with 035 wire performs quite well on 6mm/0.25" steel.  With my last project ( 38' trailer to haul and launch my 33', 9800lb, fixed keel boat), I took a certification class at a tech college before I built it to brush up on my technique.  I back welded.  I have some construction pics I could upload if there is any interest. 4) Get some scrap steel or buy a little extra of the thickness you are welding and weld it up,  cut it in half and check your welds.  Then do it again and again, ie practice.  Buy a welder a pint or 6 pack and ask them to look at your practice welds.  Give them the beer after weld review.  5) Flux core is fine for this material and the objectives of the weld.  Might even be better than rod, since theoretically you should end up with a thinner amount of filler metal.  The thicker rod weld gives more of a pivot point when the metal flexes in use. >I think I read the problem with MIG is that welds look nice almost always (except when using flux core, I am told?) A bad weld is a bad weld.  Some good welds look bad and some good welds look nice.  A bad weld looks like a bad weld.  When in doubt, drill a hole and check.  1) Is your metal fused with no slag between the filler and the base metal or incorporated into the weld? 2) How well are you penetrating the base metal?  Do you need to back weld or bevel? 3) Are there any voids? 4) Are you fusing the filler when you stop and start? Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Tue, 6/9/09, mllmag wrote: From: mllmag Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 6:19 PM Hello Will, Thanks for the valuable info. So using flux core in MIG welding gives the same strenght as welding with a shielding gas. That's very interesting (no book I could find compared both). Also you say that for carbon steel I shouldn't be worried about the wind. Why? I think I read that melted steel oxidizes rapidly if there is no gas or slag protection and that was very bad for the final quality of the weld. SOmehow this does not happen with carbon steel? If so, that good be very good news, since it seems MIG welding is easier and machines seem to be more easily available for whatever reason...I found a Lincoln MIG that seems interesting (Lincoln POWER MIG 180C at an offer that is similar to a reputable brand inverter). I haven't founa a Clarke locally, but still looking. Regarding penetration with a MIG, if one suspects it is the case, isn't just solved by incresing the wire feeder velocity and/or going slower making the weld, so it is really not difficult? (the usual stick 6013 also has some problems in penetration) . I think I read the problem with MIG is that welds look nice almost always (except when using flux core, I am told?) and it is difficult to know if the penetration is enough or not, whereas in stick welding it is clearer by the appearance of the weld. Is that so? Thank you, Marti [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20611|20546|2009-06-10 11:52:09|Grant Henry|Re: Choice of welder|Marti, Well, wind is an issue. Both processes use a shielding gas which is essential to a good weld and wind, of course, will blow the gas away. That's why welders have such a good deal working at -40C, they require a wind proof hording. With MIG, increase the amperage. Penetration is really a straw dog, unless you are using 6010, and welding only from one side. Fortunately, there is no reason to do this and it requires advanced skills. Penetration is achieved by back welding. Thoroughly grind back the first pass from the other side before adding a second pass from the other side (back side). MIG quality is generally what you get, is what you see. If you see what looks like little bubbles, grind it all out and do it again. Good luck. Grant From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mllmag Sent: June 9, 2009 4:20 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder Hello Will, Thanks for the valuable info. So using flux core in MIG welding gives the same strenght as welding with a shielding gas. That's very interesting (no book I could find compared both). Also you say that for carbon steel I shouldn't be worried about the wind. Why? I think I read that melted steel oxidizes rapidly if there is no gas or slag protection and that was very bad for the final quality of the weld. SOmehow this does not happen with carbon steel? If so, that good be very good news, since it seems MIG welding is easier and machines seem to be more easily available for whatever reason...I found a Lincoln MIG that seems interesting (Lincoln POWER MIG 180C at an offer that is similar to a reputable brand inverter). I haven't founa a Clarke locally, but still looking. Regarding penetration with a MIG, if one suspects it is the case, isn't just solved by incresing the wire feeder velocity and/or going slower making the weld, so it is really not difficult? (the usual stick 6013 also has some problems in penetration). I think I read the problem with MIG is that welds look nice almost always (except when using flux core, I am told?) and it is difficult to know if the penetration is enough or not, whereas in stick welding it is clearer by the appearance of the weld. Is that so? Thank you, Marti [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20612|20546|2009-06-10 12:15:20|sae140|Re: Choice of welder|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > So using flux core in MIG welding gives the same strenght as welding with a shielding gas. Before getting too enthusiastic about fluxed 'MIG' wire, you might like to do your homework regarding the relative costs involved. I've just done a quick 'Google' and couldn't easily find anyone selling full-sized reels of gas-less wire, but one site is offering Midi (8") sized spools of normal wire for £15, whereas the same sized spool (4.54Kg) of gas-less wire is £52. For comparison, a 5Kg box of 6013 rods will set you back around £10-12. Bear in mind that you'll be getting through quite a few boxes or reels while building a boat. 'best, Colin| 20613|20583|2009-06-10 14:15:41|brentswain38|Re: Choice of a welder & Big Brother|Before the charter, I asked Ed Broadbent about the Bill of Rights. He said it was brought in by the Diefenbaker government at a time when rights were still a provincial matter and thus had no legal effect. A lot of abuses have resulted in cases being thrown out of court, on the basis of the charter. We Metis have won our rights by the charter , so it works. A 225 amp buzzbox is all the welder you need, for around $300. You don't have to worry about shielding gasses, working conditions etc. It is far easier to get a good looking weld that has no strength with a wire feed. With stick, what you see is what you get. The leads are a lot easier to work with with stick. You just connect a short ground to the hull, via some scrap if neccesary, and put the welder amidships, then put a long enough lead on to reach both ends of the boat, and never have to move the welder again until you are finished. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > Hey guys, > > check out PCWEBTEAM@..." > it's stuff they get from verious departments plus what they thieve from people through the court system. Lots of welding stuff now and they have fresh air hoods up for auction now. > > RE: Big Brother > > Brent, > > The Charter of rights & freedoms is a sham brought in in 1968 by tredeau (may he rot in hell) and has NOTHING to do with human beings or personal property. Neither is mentioned in the act. > > The Canadian Bill of Rights is what you want as it: > a> precedes the charter of rights > b> specifically mentions human beings and property > c> ALL acts of parlament MUST pass a board/commitie to INSURE that the human rights of Canadians are not infringed by the proposed Act. Nothing like that with the 'charter of misleading bullshit'. > > Re: your rights & thugs with guns. > > The point is THEY have guns and just like Adolf's boys, they have learned that a gun to your temple will get a man to comply every time. My only question is, what's the differance between Adolf's mob and the one runnign this country? > \ > Shane > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > | 20614|20497|2009-06-10 14:17:42|brentswain38|Re: Hoping to view Brentboats|I'm not sure where I'll be next week , possibly Deep Bay or Lasquetti. When next week? I can arrange to meet you. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "future boat owner" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Garth > > There are several .................... > > Brent > > Thanks for the extensive list Brent. I have heard back from several people who are willing to show their boats and are most generous. I'm hoping that I can meet you and maybe network with a few others when we get there as I really want to check out interiors and don't want to do B&E's. > I have spoken with Martin (Prairie Maid) here and I think there is at least I other builder. I haven't yet decided whether to build in Edmonton or at the coast (fast track). Many factors involved I'd like to discuss. > Do you know where you will be next week? > > Fair winds > > Garth > > Future sv Wholly Chinook > | 20615|20590|2009-06-10 14:20:12|brentswain38|Re: Lead for metric 31'|I would recommend 3500 lbs of lead , and use the weight saving for the tons of junk that accumulate aboard a boat over time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" wrote: > > Brent, > > Here in Belgium the steel for the hull would be 4 mm and for the deck and cabin 3 mm. > > A metric hull would than be 19 % lighter than a not metric one, the deck 6 %. > > 3/16 4.7625 4 119,1% > 1/8 3,175 3 105,8% > > What would you advise on the amount of lead to use for your metric 31'? > > Thank you, > > Ralph > | 20616|20595|2009-06-10 14:22:43|brentswain38|Re: Need to Contact Karl and Brent|The best way to contact me is here or by email. Karl can be hard to find , but his sister works in the Comox or Courtenay library and will know where he is. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "heretic_37ft" wrote: > > Hi Brent and Karl: > > I just had a new Catamaran built. Will be in BC this summer on my > trip to Alaska. Hulls are aluminum: > > http://krahenbuhl.net/pictures/09.06.08-2100A-install/100_0487.jpg > > Would like to stop by and say hello to you and Karl! How do I contact > you folks once there? > > Will hopefully sail my BS 36 next summer south from Hawaii to Fiji. > > Your emails are being rejected... > > Thank you for all the help! > > Respectfully, > The Heretic > | 20617|20562|2009-06-10 14:26:28|brentswain38|Re: Foam Backed Headliner|Some have glued it on that coroplast signboard material that looks like a plastic version of corrogated cardboard. Soft but adequate for overhead panels, and very cheap. Zero deterioration over time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > Anyone know the source of the headliners u see in higher end boats? Looks like leather, has or looks to have small pin holes in it. U used to see it in airplanes. > > I would like to find a liner that is substantially foam backed if possible. > > > I worked at a yacht company and the headliners and sideliners were made of "naughahyde" (that leathery looking plastic stuff often used in boat and car upholstery) which was glued together with a contact cement sprayed on both sides to foam sheets of whatever thickness. It was layed out on a sheet of ply. I remember that one time it fell off the ceiling due to a glue problem--however it was nice to bump ones head on instead of a hard edge. > | 20618|20590|2009-06-10 14:29:13|brentswain38|Re: Lead for metric 31'|1/8th is a bit undersized for a 3/16th for easy construction and fairness, 3/16th is oversized for a 31 . I wish I could get 4mm here, I'd definitely use it for the 31, but 3/16th is a better option than 1/8th. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aku.ankka" wrote: > > Do you think that Brent are crazy, when he wrote this: > "Metric is great for the 31, 4mm for the hull, 3mm for the decks and > cabin and 6mm for the keels. 4 mm is between 3/16th and 1/8th perfect > for the 31 .I wish we could get it here." > > It's orginal here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/13085 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > > > Not Brent here but thought I'd comment. Aren't you going the wrong > > way with your sizes? Especially the 4mm stock. > > > > Mind you I'm not a navel engineer, it just that I avoid under sizing > > any thing I build as a normal course. I'm sure Brent will chime in > > when he wakes up. It could just be me and my desire to always over > > do it no mater what I'm working on. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Jun 8, 2009, at 4:23 AM, dejongralph wrote: > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > Here in Belgium the steel for the hull would be 4 mm and for the > > > deck and cabin 3 mm. > > > > > > A metric hull would than be 19 % lighter than a not metric one, the > > > deck 6 %. > > > > > > 3/16 4.7625 4 119,1% > > > 1/8 3,175 3 105,8% > > > > > > What would you advise on the amount of lead to use for your metric > > > 31'? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Ralph > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 20619|20605|2009-06-10 14:32:17|brentswain38|Re: Quotation for steel|As plate is shipped in rolls of great lengths , it is available , you just have to shop around and harass them enough. It used to be hard to get them to cut it in lengths over 20 ft here, until enough guys harassed them for longer lengths. Then it became common. They are just being too lazy to deal with longer lengths. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello, > I got a quotation for the price of steel and I would like to ask to the group if it seems reasonable. > For the price of the plates they would charge me 0,90 Eu/Kg (that's about 1.27US$/Kg or 0.58US$/Pound or 0.64 CAD$/Pound), for whatever thickness (3,4,6,12 mm). One problem is that they only serve 3metres (9.8 feet) or 6m (19 feet) long by 1.5metres(4.9feet) width maximum, so that would mean a lot of cutting and welding to make for the sizes Brent gives in his list, specially if one wants to minimize waste. Is this usual? In Brent's book he mentions to have to weld in order to have widths greater than 2.5m, but not for as low as 1.5m... > Thank you, > Marti > | 20620|20553|2009-06-10 14:33:43|brentswain38|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|Yes Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent,when you say 2 to 1 scarf on a 6 in. tubing, do you mean the scarf is 12 in long. Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:49:32 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a 6 inch OD with a 1/8th wall , roughly the same weight as a solid fir , or a 5 1/2 by 8 inch spruce box section with 1 1/4 inch walls, and far stronger. Seal it airtight and you have no worries about internal corrosion. Hollow wood masts tend to rot from the inside and are far more complicated to attatch stays and shrouds etc to than a steel mast. > > Lately I have been using a 2 to 1 scarf to joint 20 foot sections , much lighter and easier to do than sleeves, and just as strong as the original pipe. > > People who have switched from 6 5/8th well tubing to aluminium haven't found a huge improvement in sailing performance and one said if he had 6 inch instead of 6 5/8th, the change would have been unoticeable. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > > > > > Steel is more that 40% lighter than a solid wood mast of the same strength according to the utility pole makers. But you can build a hollow wood mast. > > > > > > I'm still looking for an aluminum utility pole as a possible alternative, but so far have had no luck. My guess is that the increase in cost is going to be greater than the decrease in weight and maintenance anyway. > > > > > > Doug Jackson > > > SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Nous sommes vos photos. Partagez-nous dès maintenant avec Windows Live Photos. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666051 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20621|20553|2009-06-10 14:35:20|brentswain38|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|Yes. I have the cutting pattern for a 6 inch mast 2 to 1 scarf, if you need it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent,when you say 2 to 1 scarf on a 6 in. tubing, do you mean the scarf is 12 in long. Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:49:32 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a 6 inch OD with a 1/8th wall , roughly the same weight as a solid fir , or a 5 1/2 by 8 inch spruce box section with 1 1/4 inch walls, and far stronger. Seal it airtight and you have no worries about internal corrosion. Hollow wood masts tend to rot from the inside and are far more complicated to attatch stays and shrouds etc to than a steel mast. > > Lately I have been using a 2 to 1 scarf to joint 20 foot sections , much lighter and easier to do than sleeves, and just as strong as the original pipe. > > People who have switched from 6 5/8th well tubing to aluminium haven't found a huge improvement in sailing performance and one said if he had 6 inch instead of 6 5/8th, the change would have been unoticeable. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > > > > > Steel is more that 40% lighter than a solid wood mast of the same strength according to the utility pole makers. But you can build a hollow wood mast. > > > > > > I'm still looking for an aluminum utility pole as a possible alternative, but so far have had no luck. My guess is that the increase in cost is going to be greater than the decrease in weight and maintenance anyway. > > > > > > Doug Jackson > > > SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Nous sommes vos photos. Partagez-nous dès maintenant avec Windows Live Photos. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666051 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20622|20546|2009-06-10 14:35:50|brentswain38|Re: Choice of welder|Don't know. Never used one. Gas is far more expensive than plug in. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent, I dont have acces to electricity where my boat is located, so what would you think of a lincoln SA200 gas welder?Martin.(in Montreal) > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:42:39 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6010's dont like AC > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > > > > Hi mllmag, > > > > > > Some types of welders even though the welder has the amperes will give weaker and intermittent flow with some types of rod as you describe. It happened to me with dia 3.2mm 6010/6011 rods, they just would not work well. After talking to welder friends who didn't know why, I spoke to a knowledgable technical chap from Thyssen, the company who made the rods, and after being told my type of welder, a small inverter one similar to yours, he said check the welder's open circuit voltage. I did and it was too low for the type of rods I was trying. I changed rods after checking their open circuit volyage requirement and now all is well. I changed to dia 3.2mm 6013, but not all types of them work well so there was some trial and error. > > > > > > Be aware that some welders and welding supplies company employees know little or nothing about open circuit voltage and may try to ridicule or patronise you. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello everybody, > > > > I have been planning building a Brent boat for some time, and lurking on the group almost every night, and finally, after Brent's postings saying one is better off building than looking for a second hand hull (I can agree: looking for none is very frustating...A pity, since I like recycling...), I think I have pulled the courage to try to build a boat (either a BS26 or a BS31, depending on materials cost). I'm trying to get started, asking for materials cost to several providers and getting the tools I need, hoping a building site will appear. > > > > One of them is the welder: I got a 140 Amp inverter of the brand Decaweld, and I think it does not work properly (a local mechanician tried it and agreed: it showed a weaker and intermittent flow when welding, compared to his Lincoln inverter). Maybe it is faulty...but it was a sort of a gift bought in a faraway city and I couldn't change it. So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? Is the magnetic blow a common problem when building a boat (I don't think it should: only in steel that has been sustained constant friction, like water flow, is more likely to happen, I read. Since the steel is new, there should not be any problem, I think), so I should go for a AC machine? On ebay there are some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they are any good? Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > > > Getting a Lincoln here in Spain (or in Europe) does not seem to be easy at least on the web, and they are terribly expensive, specially when shipping is included (besides it seems in AMerica 60 Hz is used, and in Europe is 50Hz, and a vendor told me that could break a 60 Hz machine in the end. He was referring to a LIncoln AC225 amp machine. He seemed very honest...). Does anybody know of any local machine easily available in Europe that would be great for welding (for a newbie)? > > > > Thank you for any help, and sorry if there are too many questions... > > > > Martin > > > > NB By the way, commenting on the person who said that in spain the boat owners are really abused, I can say that the amateur boat builders too:it is amazingly silly all the requirements they ask...INspection of the site by a bureaucrat, inspection of the building process by a naval engineer, aproval of the plans by an enginner, plate has to be "naval quality plate", which is not available in spain in less than 8mm...(the last time I went to the governement office that handles that said "Ok maybe we'll take that into consideration and waive that demand..". SOme local builders of steel boats have gone to the length of doing a certification that the steel they used is better than naval steel, paying the lab report for that themselves...). Really very discouraging unless one has deep pockets...I envy you in other more boatlover friendly countries... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Internet explorer 8 aide à protéger la vie privée. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9655573 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20623|20546|2009-06-10 14:39:25|brentswain38|Re: Choice of welder|We once used a miller 225 amp buzbox on an assembly line that was rated at 20% duty cucle , three shifts, 24 hours a day, at 225 amps ,welding full time. It never gave a bit of trouble ,even tho we were using it continuosly at far beyond its rated duty cycle. I've never found a 20% duty cycle to be a problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello Ben, > Thank you for your reply. > I was tempted to buy a AC buzzbox as cheap as I could find locally, a 200 Amp (forgot to look at what duty cycle) Herkules available at a home improvement chain locally for 150 Eu, and hope for the best. But I rethought about it and I don't want to throw money collecting welders after the one I got, and decided to ask the group in case welders are not really all similar even if they have the same specs. > What you say that a multimode machine could be useful in a boat, even for a living, intrigues me. That's why I thought the Lotos was interesting. BUt I think the current source needed must be very stable and that's not easily available. There are some mobile welders, but very expensive. An interesting one is called www.zena.net, rated 150 amp DC at 100% duty cycle (or 200 amp if wanted as an option) and usable out of any turning engine. ANd it has options for MIG spools etc...But at a cost...I thought if it were any cheaper it would be very interesting since after building the boat it could be fitted easily in the boat engine, if one was available. > I enquired about an oxy-acetilene set: the cheapest one locally (two bottles of about 3 feet high. The seller didn't know its capacity...and it was an specialist shop...)sells for a little more than 900 Eu. That's a lot of money for just an item to cut. I think I am better off witha cheap plasma cutter. The beauty of the Lotos is that it would solve that and the welder at the same time. It is a good thing the person who bought one was happy with it. However the machine is a bit shadowy: asking the seller, it said that 200 amp at 60% and 95 amp at 100% (which I found too low for a 200 amp at 60% and enquired the seller) was a typo and it really was 140 amp at 100%. But then he gave a link of the maker, and there it said it is 160 amp at 60%, 95 amp at 100%. So not really great...See what the seller answers, but it gives a bad impression... > I bought already Brent's book, and the plans of the boat. > Regards, > martin > > > Have you considered getting it fixed? That might be the cheapest option. > > > > Personally, I'd look for a 200A welder with the highest duty cycle I > > could find for the money I was willing to spend. I've heard people make > > the argument of "it'll cool down while you change rods and rest and wait > > for the weld to cool" and so on, but I don't find it valid: I hate to be > > limited by the low quality of a tool. I'd much rather use a high-quality > > tool, and let the *work* define my methods. Professional welders don't > > just use top-quality equipment because it looks nice or because that > > bright red or blue box gives them social status; they use it because > > they know that in a difficult situation, that extra bit of quality and > > power can make the difference between getting the job done or not. > > > > I'm not saying that you need a $15000 welding rig, though. I'm saying > > that you should figure out the maximum amount of welding output you'll > > need for the job, add whatever safety factor makes you feel comfortable > > on top of that (typically, that would be 50-100% extra), and buy > > equipment to do that. > > > > > So maybe I'll try to buy a new machine but I wouldn't want to make > > > a mistake and/or break the budget. Should I get a reputable brand like > > > Lincoln, Miller, or just any welder of about 140 Amps would work (some > > > cheap chinese AC welders on local shops...)? > > > Is DC strongly advised or AC is OK too (for a newbie)? > > > > I'd say that a simple but tough AC buzzbox should be fine - as well as > > very cheap. It'll spatter more, and it limits you to certain types of > > rod, but you should be able to do everything you need for welding up a > > hull and deck. You can dig around at http://www.weldingrods.com/ and > > look for the types of rod that you'll want to use for all the jobs. > > > > If you can afford it, a good quality DC machine is, of course, better - > > but it is more complicated and _much_ more expensive per amp of output > > and duty cycle. On the other hand, it's a little easier to use, there's > > a lot more stuff you can do with it, and (given the amount of practice > > you'll have with it by then) you'll be able to make a living with it > > while cruising, especially if it's a multi-mode machine (i.e., > > SMAW/MIG/TIG). > > > > > On ebay there are > > > some 3 in 1 machines like the Lotos CT420D that offer a 200 AMp stick > > > DC welder and a 100 Amp plasma cutter, and they are about the same > > > price of a Lincoln AC (200Amp)/DC (120Amp). Does anybody know if they > > > are any good? > > > > One of the people who used to post here, Seer, bought one and liked it. > > One person's opinion is too small of a sample set for me, though. Also, > > from my perspective, those things are way too complicated to buy in > > "Chinese" quality or to depend on. For myself, I'd avoid them. > > > > > Is a plasma cutter a big advantage or would I need > > > oxy-propane anyway (for maybe bending or melting the lead)? Is > > > oxy-propane cutting much more difficult to handle than plasma cutting > > > (I heard oxy cutting is hard to do well)? > > > > According to Brent - perhaps you should buy his book? It's got a lot of > > this stuff in it - an oxy-propane rig is all you need for cutting. > > Plasma cutters _are_ very nice, but unless you get a *big* one, you'll > > be waiting and waiting between cuts, while someone with an oxy-propane > > rig would be done already. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 20624|20561|2009-06-10 14:41:46|brentswain38|Re: Rust in steel boats|Thats why I like to make the floor one piece lift up, giving instant access to the entire area under it. Those tiny lift up panels, which have you looking around inaccessible corners, just don't cut it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > It probably would have if it had been done some years previous.Classic case of Caveat Emptor.The hull was partially floored and dry inside and the worst bits were under the flooring.Whether this had been put down to conceal the problems is something I've wondered about since.Even with the overplating it's still within budget and at least we've been able to pay for it a bit at a time.I think that Dutch Barge practice was to tar the inside of the bilges.Boat is now under cover > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 20625|20546|2009-06-10 16:10:04|will jones|Re: Choice of welder|While the cost of solid wire is cheaper than flux core, you will need to factor in the cost or rental cost of a tank and the cost of Ar/CO2 gas.   Here in the US you can get a 10lb spool of flux core for around $40US or a 10lb spool of solid core for around $30US.   A 80cuft (2264L) tank will run $200US to buy and $30US to fill.  Leasing a tank is usually a $100US deposit and $100US/year.   Outside on a calm day you might get by around 5 L/min for around 7 hours and on a mildly windy day will use around 8-10 L/min for 3.5-4 hours welding.  Any moderate wind and you will need to jump up to around 15 L/min for around 2.5 hours welding.  So you probably should have around 3 bottles on hand for a long weekend of welding and a way to haul the bottles back and forth to get refilled. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Wed, 6/10/09, sae140 wrote: From: sae140 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 12:14 PM --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mllmag" wrote: > So using flux core in MIG welding gives the same strenght as welding with a shielding gas. Before getting too enthusiastic about fluxed 'MIG' wire, you might like to do your homework regarding the relative costs involved. I've just done a quick 'Google' and couldn't easily find anyone selling full-sized reels of gas-less wire, but one site is offering Midi (8") sized spools of normal wire for £15, whereas the same sized spool (4.54Kg) of gas-less wire is £52. For comparison, a 5Kg box of 6013 rods will set you back around £10-12. Bear in mind that you'll be getting through quite a few boxes or reels while building a boat. 'best, Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20626|20546|2009-06-10 20:11:59|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Choice of welder|I'm going to jump in here a little. I've done a fair amount of Mig welding and also testing of the welds afterwards, by hot dip galvanizing the parts afterwards. When we welded parts with 0.035" welding wire the parts looked beautiful, and many would fall apart later after galvanizing! We switched to 0.045" wire and ALL the problems with bad welds went away. Many welding vendors have tried to convince me that 0.035" wire makes good consistent welds, and no one was ever able to get reliable welds on thousands of parts after galvanizing. The issue is very simple. To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig welding that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material with the same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" simply can not carry enough current to get good penetration. Metal gets deposited on top with a beautiful bead and almost no fusion zone. Mig welding with cheap welders have another big problem. A good industrial constant voltage mig welder will supply 1000 to 2000 amps into the arc at start! This causes the wire to burn back instantly without stubbing the work piece and the extra heat gets the fusion zone going right from the start. It is impossible to do this with a cheap welder running from an underpowered source of electricity. I used to repair welders for a local gas dealer. Two or three machines a week, every week. All kinds of machines, stick, Tig, Mig, you name it. Good commercial welding machines last a VERY long time! They also hold their value well. I think buying a good used commercial welding machine and building your boat, then selling it off for what you paid is a much better proposition than a cheap machine. A good welder can do miracles with almost any welder. So how many of you are real expert welders? Why not buy a welding machine that is easier to use so you are not at such a disadvantage? Everything from cars to bridges are being welded with Mig now. For a very good reason. Despite the higher cost of consumables the cost per pound actually deposited is far lower. The lower cost comes from less labor, and less wasted metal. Those short stubs you leave from every stick wire adds up fast. The welds are BETTER than stick welds too! A large part of this is because the welding process requires far less skill from the operator. However it takes MORE skill to properly set up the welding machine. If you don't know how to do it, then you'll be very unimpressed with the results using Mig. Bottom line is that Mig welding can produce a sound boat, IF you are using a good machine, set up right. Stick can also produce a sound boat IF you know how to stick weld properly. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "will jones" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder | 20627|20546|2009-06-10 21:02:03|David Frantz|Re: Choice of welder|Having used both a hugemongus commercial MIG welder and a small 220 volt portable I have to disagree somewhat with your conclusion when focused in home built ships. MIG just isn't a suitable solution if it is the only welder you will have. In fact I would go so far as to say trying to build with MIG is unwise for the amature and expensive. There are a number of problems as I see it. 1. The welded materials must be clean and properly preped. 2. Shielding gas is a big issue for work done outdoors. 3. Good penetration can be had as you point out but this is not with run of the mill hardware. Frankly I think most MIG welder manufactures over estimate their capacity by half. That is if the welder is rated for 1/4 inch mild steel it is going to be difficult to get good structural results on materials much thicker than 1/8". As you point out thicker wire helps but then you are talking about a vastly different welder. This need to invest in what would be professional welding equipement is a big negative as you increase your welding costs by order of a magnitude or more. 4. Then there is the issue of that MIG gun or torch. It is a great tool if you are always in a position that affords maximum visability. That isn't going to be the case when building a ship. The problem of course is the need to precisely place that arc puddle with MIG. Plain old stick welding offers a big advantage here. 5. Like it or not MIG has issues with cold starts. Yes it can be worked around. 6. Incase anbody else is reading MIG is not Flux Core, but I'd suggest that Flux Core has even more problems. So no I don't consider it to be a good investment either. These are my opinions of course but a good buzz box is not just a minimal investment to get the job done, rather it is the only thing truely needed. Yeah better welders produce better welds just like better weldors do. The thing is what do you need to get the job done, when a used buzz box can be had for as little as $65 do you really want to invest in a $4500 welder? There are of course all sorts of qualifiers in there because we are all individuals but as a task mild steel welding is nothing fancy at all. Of course going beyound basic boat building is another matter altogether. I've mentioned in the past that an option to do TIG would be nice if you want to do a lot if stainless trim work. Again it isn't a requirement at all but it is an issue that might be worth considering. Dave David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 10, 2009, at 8:04 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > I'm going to jump in here a little. I've done a fair amount of Mig > welding > and also testing of the welds afterwards, by hot dip galvanizing the > parts > afterwards. When we welded parts with 0.035" welding wire the parts > looked > beautiful, and many would fall apart later after galvanizing! We > switched > to 0.045" wire and ALL the problems with bad welds went away. Many > welding > vendors have tried to convince me that 0.035" wire makes good > consistent > welds, and no one was ever able to get reliable welds on thousands > of parts > after galvanizing. > > The issue is very simple. To get ample penetration you need the SAME > current > density for Mig welding that you need for stick welding of the same > thickness material with the same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > simply can not carry enough current to get good penetration. Metal > gets > deposited on top with a beautiful bead and almost no fusion zone. > > Mig welding with cheap welders have another big problem. A good > industrial > constant voltage mig welder will supply 1000 to 2000 amps into the > arc at > start! This causes the wire to burn back instantly without stubbing > the > work piece and the extra heat gets the fusion zone going right from > the > start. It is impossible to do this with a cheap welder running from > an > underpowered source of electricity. > > I used to repair welders for a local gas dealer. Two or three > machines a > week, every week. All kinds of machines, stick, Tig, Mig, you name > it. > Good commercial welding machines last a VERY long time! They also > hold > their value well. I think buying a good used commercial welding > machine and > building your boat, then selling it off for what you paid is a much > better > proposition than a cheap machine. > > A good welder can do miracles with almost any welder. So how many > of you > are real expert welders? Why not buy a welding machine that is > easier to > use so you are not at such a disadvantage? > > Everything from cars to bridges are being welded with Mig now. For > a very > good reason. Despite the higher cost of consumables the cost per > pound > actually deposited is far lower. The lower cost comes from less > labor, and > less wasted metal. Those short stubs you leave from every stick > wire adds > up fast. The welds are BETTER than stick welds too! A large part > of this > is because the welding process requires far less skill from the > operator. > However it takes MORE skill to properly set up the welding machine. > If you > don't know how to do it, then you'll be very unimpressed with the > results > using Mig. > > Bottom line is that Mig welding can produce a sound boat, IF you are > using a > good machine, set up right. Stick can also produce a sound boat IF > you know > how to stick weld properly. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "will jones" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:03 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20628|20546|2009-06-10 21:42:53|Paul Wilson|Re: Choice of welder|If I can be bold enough to add to what Gary has said. Gary's old postings are well worth reading... I recently got certified in Aluminum MIG welding and used several top of the line, all singing and dancing computerized machines. Even with these machines, it was possible to do perfectly good looking welds that had the strength of cheese. I had to test them to destruction. My 10 mm welds would have no voids, look great, but have no strength and snap in two before they would start bending in the press. I never tried different size wire like Gary describes but learned that the only way to get a high strength weld was to turn the current of the machine WAY up and go fast with the high amp setting. Most amateur welders keep the amps setting low, since it is slower and easier to control. If they tested their welds to destruction, many would get a nasty surprise. MIG is good but I think it would be an unnecessary pain in the ass when welding an origami boat. A stick welder with a 50 foot stinger cable as described in Brent's book is much more convenient and forgiving, IMO. Buy good quality cable and cut the cable up for your battery installation when you are done. I am a little surprised Gary says operating a MIG and buying all its consumables is cheaper than using a stick welder. My personal opinion is MIG is for mass production, hourly rate stuff where you have a station set-up and don't move the welder around. The tips wear out quickly, gas isn't cheap and a lot of time is spent keeping the machine working smoothly. None of this is true with a stick welder, you just uncoil the cable, flick a switch and go. I think every 10 minute job would turn into half an hour of screwing around using a MIG. I have been told that high pressure pipe-line welders all use stick instead of MIG. They say they have more control and it is stronger. I burnt out my cheap 230A AC welder when I built my boat. It was a Canadian Tire brand and I was abusing it, running at a high duty cycle at 160 amps while welding the chines. The replacement never quit but I took it a little easier with it. I think the the better welders use copper transformers instead of aluminum. Buy a good name brand model like a Miller or Lincoln isn't necessary but I don't think you will be sorry you did. If you can find one used, go for it, but a lot of people won't let them go.... Cheers, Paul| 20629|20546|2009-06-10 22:20:48|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Choice of welder|Paul & David, I reread what I wrote, and I don't see where I said Mig was the right choice. I certainly listed the pitfalls there. I also didn't suggest anyone spend big money for a welder. I suggested a good quality USED welder stick or mig, that would hold it's value, so that it's ultimate cost to you would be virtually zero. I once bought a 400 amp 100% duty cycle mig machine at a nuclear plant auction for 25 bucks once. They had fifty machines and none went over about $400. I sold it for several hundred 10 years later. A new cheap machine will sell used for way less than you paid. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder > If I can be bold enough to add to what Gary has said. Gary's old > postings are well worth reading... > > I recently got certified in Aluminum MIG welding and used several top of > the line, all singing and dancing computerized machines. Even with > these machines, it was possible to do perfectly good looking welds that > had the strength of cheese. I had to test them to destruction. My 10 > mm welds would have no voids, look great, but have no strength and snap > in two before they would start bending in the press. I never tried > different size wire like Gary describes but learned that the only way to > get a high strength weld was to turn the current of the machine WAY up > and go fast with the high amp setting. Most amateur welders keep the > amps setting low, since it is slower and easier to control. If they > tested their welds to destruction, many would get a nasty surprise. > > MIG is good but I think it would be an unnecessary pain in the ass when > welding an origami boat. A stick welder with a 50 foot stinger cable as > described in Brent's book is much more convenient and forgiving, IMO. > Buy good quality cable and cut the cable up for your battery > installation when you are done. I am a little surprised Gary says > operating a MIG and buying all its consumables is cheaper than using a > stick welder. My personal opinion is MIG is for mass production, > hourly rate stuff where you have a station set-up and don't move the > welder around. The tips wear out quickly, gas isn't cheap and a lot > of time is spent keeping the machine working smoothly. None of this is > true with a stick welder, you just uncoil the cable, flick a switch and > go. I think every 10 minute job would turn into half an hour of > screwing around using a MIG. I have been told that high pressure > pipe-line welders all use stick instead of MIG. They say they have more > control and it is stronger. > > I burnt out my cheap 230A AC welder when I built my boat. It was a > Canadian Tire brand and I was abusing it, running at a high duty cycle > at 160 amps while welding the chines. The replacement never quit but I > took it a little easier with it. I think the the better welders use > copper transformers instead of aluminum. Buy a good name brand model > like a Miller or Lincoln isn't necessary but I don't think you will be > sorry you did. If you can find one used, go for it, but a lot of people > won't let them go.... > > Cheers, Paul > > | 20630|20630|2009-06-10 23:06:55|Paul Wilson|Re: Choice of welder]|No worries Gary. I just wanted to express my experience and reinforce the value of stick versus MIG. Cheers, Paul Paul & David, I reread what I wrote, and I don't see where I said Mig was the right choice. I certainly listed the pitfalls there. I also didn't suggest anyone spend big money for a welder. I suggested a good quality USED welder stick or mig, that would hold it's value, so that it's ultimate cost to you would be virtually zero. I once bought a 400 amp 100% duty cycle mig machine at a nuclear plant auction for 25 bucks once. They had fifty machines and none went over about $400. I sold it for several hundred 10 years later. A new cheap machine will sell used for way less than you paid.| 20631|20546|2009-06-11 02:19:50|Aaron Williams|Re: Choice of welder|The cost of a good wire feed machine far out weights the benifites of a low cost stick welding machine. People say wire is easy to learn but dont be fooled. There is an art to it and it does take a lot more practice to get it consistantly right. Yes you can weld faster but one can also make bigger mistakes.  Look back into the past messages before you realy commit yourself. Aaron  --- On Wed, 6/10/09, sae140 wrote: From: sae140 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 8:14 AM --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mllmag" wrote: > So using flux core in MIG welding gives the same strenght as welding with a shielding gas. Before getting too enthusiastic about fluxed 'MIG' wire, you might like to do your homework regarding the relative costs involved. I've just done a quick 'Google' and couldn't easily find anyone selling full-sized reels of gas-less wire, but one site is offering Midi (8") sized spools of normal wire for £15, whereas the same sized spool (4.54Kg) of gas-less wire is £52. For comparison, a 5Kg box of 6013 rods will set you back around £10-12. Bear in mind that you'll be getting through quite a few boxes or reels while building a boat. 'best, Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20632|20546|2009-06-11 04:18:21|sae140|Re: Choice of welder|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Having used both a hugemongus commercial MIG welder and a small 220 > volt portable I have to disagree somewhat with your conclusion when > focused in home built ships. MIG just isn't a suitable solution if > it is the only welder you will have. In fact I would go so far as to > say trying to build with MIG is unwise for the amature and expensive. > > There are a number of problems as I see it. > 1. > The welded materials must be clean and properly preped. > 2. > Shielding gas is a big issue for work done outdoors. > 3. > Good penetration can be had as you point out but this is not with run > of the mill hardware. Frankly I think most MIG welder manufactures > over estimate their capacity by half. That is if the welder is rated > for 1/4 inch mild steel it is going to be difficult to get good > structural results on materials much thicker than 1/8". As you point > out thicker wire helps but then you are talking about a vastly > different welder. This need to invest in what would be professional > welding equipement is a big negative as you increase your welding > costs by order of a magnitude or more. > 4. > Then there is the issue of that MIG gun or torch. It is a great tool > if you are always in a position that affords maximum visability. > That isn't going to be the case when building a ship. The problem of > course is the need to precisely place that arc puddle with MIG. > Plain old stick welding offers a big advantage here. > 5. > Like it or not MIG has issues with cold starts. Yes it can be worked > around. > 6. > Incase anbody else is reading MIG is not Flux Core, but I'd suggest > that Flux Core has even more problems. So no I don't consider it to > be a good investment either. > > These are my opinions of course but a good buzz box is not just a > minimal investment to get the job done, rather it is the only thing > truely needed. Yeah better welders produce better welds just like > better weldors do. The thing is what do you need to get the job > done, when a used buzz box can be had for as little as $65 do you > really want to invest in a $4500 welder? There are of course all > sorts of qualifiers in there because we are all individuals but as a > task mild steel welding is nothing fancy at all. > > Of course going beyound basic boat building is another matter > altogether. I've mentioned in the past that an option to do TIG would > be nice if you want to do a lot if stainless trim work. Again it > isn't a requirement at all but it is an issue that might be worth > considering. > > Dave > I'd second these comments, but would add one more negative - the relatively short length of a MIG torch can be a right pain in the butt if you're moving around the hull much. Somewhat easier if you have a separate feeder unit, but shifting heavy plant around, especially at the tacking-together stage can become tedious. No such problems with stick. Only one long lead to worry about, and that can be aluminium if weight becomes a problem. Dave is right - if you just want to build one boat, then keep the kit as simple as possible. If you want to branch out and become a full-time welder, then buy the best kit you can afford. One other point I'd make is that the OP is located in Spain, so although it's interesting enough for comparison, there's not really much use me quoting UK prices of wire, or someone else quoting US prices. What matters is what the stuff costs in Spain. Likewise CO2 - in the UK, pub gas can often be got for £8 a fill, with no rental on the bottles (that's my situation). Professional CO2 mixes are a different story: expensive and of course there's rental. I don't know what the Spanish situation regarding gas is, but it's only after asking around and doing one's homework that the true expense will be revealed. Colin| 20633|20553|2009-06-11 05:59:31|martin demers|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|If you send it to me I will definitely use it!Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:34:13 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast Yes. I have the cutting pattern for a 6 inch mast 2 to 1 scarf, if you need it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent,when you say 2 to 1 scarf on a 6 in. tubing, do you mean the scarf is 12 in long. Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:49:32 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a 6 inch OD with a 1/8th wall , roughly the same weight as a solid fir , or a 5 1/2 by 8 inch spruce box section with 1 1/4 inch walls, and far stronger. Seal it airtight and you have no worries about internal corrosion. Hollow wood masts tend to rot from the inside and are far more complicated to attatch stays and shrouds etc to than a steel mast. > > Lately I have been using a 2 to 1 scarf to joint 20 foot sections , much lighter and easier to do than sleeves, and just as strong as the original pipe. > > People who have switched from 6 5/8th well tubing to aluminium haven't found a huge improvement in sailing performance and one said if he had 6 inch instead of 6 5/8th, the change would have been unoticeable. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > > > > > Steel is more that 40% lighter than a solid wood mast of the same strength according to the utility pole makers. But you can build a hollow wood mast. > > > > > > I'm still looking for an aluminum utility pole as a possible alternative, but so far have had no luck. My guess is that the increase in cost is going to be greater than the decrease in weight and maintenance anyway. > > > > > > Doug Jackson > > > SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Nous sommes vos photos. Partagez-nous dès maintenant avec Windows Live Photos. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666051 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Créez un personnage à votre image pour votre WL Messenger http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656622 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20634|20634|2009-06-11 06:40:40|ANDREW AIREY|Choice of Welder|Hi All Since HMG screwed up the £/euro exchange rate - can it be only 5 years since a euro was 69p,it's between 90- 95p now - it may be cheaper to buy in the UK and ship it to Spain.Provided the load weighs less than 1.25 tons and will fit on a standard pallet then shipping rates should be very reasonable.Look for a transport firm that does groupage loads or pallet exchange.Standard UK pallets are 1000mmx1250mm but be careful if Europallets are specified - these are smaller.A to B rates in the UK were about £80 the last time I checked - I wanted to move a Milwaukee miller but it was just too heavy to be collected.Don't know about the continental rates. cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 20635|20635|2009-06-11 12:23:50|will jones|choice of welder|This welding thread has been lively. I started my factory career out in the early 80's as a materials engineering chemist with Westinghouse, where I ran production control and failure analysis on plating, coatings, zinc galvanizing, welding, brazing, ceramics etc. I ran a chem analysis and metrology lab for about 5 years. There seems to be a wholesale dislike of MIG in the group of repliers with explanations of serious failures of welds attributed to the MIG technique and how some other technique or approach saved the day. If someone takes offense to this statement, I apologize up front, my intent is just to examine the failures, to provide a voice for MIG and to try not to insult anyone. I doubt if I will succeed, but please do not take any insult from my comment. But I do feel that there are issues that must be dispelled. This is one of those never ending battles that has gone on for over 50 years. >Breaking aluminum MIG welds and Hot Galvanize welds breaking with 035 wire. Bad welds, bad technique in both cases. Too little heat or too fast with gun in aluminum, built up aluminum oxide making filler brittle. Galvanize, poor penetration from welding too fast or too low amp setting, sulfuric acid attack during pickling probably attacked weld also. Problems cited to fix both problems compensated for incorrect technique. >Stick is stronger than MIG False, false and false again. Sticks and wire are rated on physically measureable properties. A rod and wire of the same physical/chemical specification are the same and will yield the same strength of weld, provided the proper technique for each filler material and welding approach is employed. If it doesn't, then the person or robot doing the weld is doing it wrong or the quality of the filler material is suspect. >A stick welder with a 50 foot stinger cable I don't know, you can drag 85lbs of 000 cable (or 125lbs of 00) or a 65lb MIG on wheels (clarke 180en). I grab the handle on my clarke and away I go. If I need to pick it up, no problems. >To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig welding that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material with the same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. Current density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. Last I looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You are sort of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the center of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed more amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point between the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the 6500K typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach the temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel in this type of welding. >MIG is harder than stick, stick is harder than MIG Both are correct. Each technique has its difficult points. With stick,striking the arc and returning to the joint and moving the rod side to side, in and down the weld all at the same time are tough for people to master at first. Cold starts with MIG, just wait 1/2 second before going down the weld. I've seen plenty of bad stick welds as well as MIG welds. Good penetration with 035 wire is a big issue. All of these are technique/training issue and not equipment failures. In both techniques too little time is spent on explaining to new welders what is good and bad about puddle development and manipulation. When I show people how to get the puddle swirling as the filler comes off the wire or rod and to use that to develop the weld and penetration, you can see the light go off in their heads and they can't wait to try it out. The books aren't showing them how to take the force of the arc and bisect the joint to push filler into the molten base metal and how the angle of the gun or rod alters this. A 175-1809A MIG will give you just as good and strong a weld as a 200A stick welder. There are alot more used 200A stick welders out there than MIG, so if pricing is at question, may be the best way to go. For less than a 1000 Euros (I looked up pricing in Euros for the pricing currency sensitive) for a new welder in this class, in what could be a 10-20,000 or more Euros project, seems a little trivial to quibble on the initial cost of a good welder. As far as operational costs, typically there won't be enough of a difference to give MIG-gas, MIG-gasless, or stick an overwhelming advantage. All three approaches will yield equal results, provided they are performed correctly. Pricing say be significantly different depending on location. But at least the thread has presented the major cost items and expendables to look at when deciding. Find people who have both types of welders or a welding supply that will let you play a little. Get some 10cm wide, 6mm thick flat stock and practice. Take a class or rent time if you can. Then decide on what type of welder you prefer. Then you too can join the great, neverending, MIG versus Stick debate. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN| 20636|20636|2009-06-11 12:57:58|will jones|OT Galvanized steel exploding story|The Westinghouse factory I worked at made powerline, substation, and other types of electrical products. One of the products was a pole fuse/switch. It was made out of stamped steel. The cans are around 10" in dia and height. Seems that unknown to Westinghouse the mfg of the cans was sold. The first time we did a galvanize run with the new cans, they all exploded. Around 100 cans started pinging and jumping like popcorn. I was out sampling a tank in the area when it happened. Scared the !@#$ out of everbody. All of the cans had a split down the side and subsequent runs would do the same for almost all the cans. We did stop production, even though it was fun to watch. Turns out the company was sold but the process to make the cans was not. They used a proprietary alloy and stress relieving process to stabilize the cans. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN| 20637|20635|2009-06-11 14:27:56|brentswain38|Re: choice of welder|When pulling a hull together for a first time builder many of whom are doubtfull about the strength of their welds, and have zero welding experience , I let them weld the pull tabs on, with 1/8th 7024. Then, after pulling the hull together I let them try to break the tabs off with a sledge hammer. When they are dripping with sweat and have bent the tabs back and forth many times , only to have them break well up from the weld, I ask them "Are you still worried about the strength of your welds? How does that compare to a copper fastening in red cedar every 6 inches? By the time one has tacked together a hull and decks, and done all the structurally unimportant welding, one is quite good with a stinger. I like to let the owner do as much of the unimportant welding as possible , to get him or her used to welding. Even the worst welder is far less likely to get a weak weld with stick than with wire, and there is no justification fore the extra expense of a wire welder, for a one off boat. Boatbuilding and cruising budgets die the death of a thousand cuts, none of which is by itself all that expensive, and forming the habit of saying " What is a few extra bucks for this or that , has killed far more cruising dreams than all other causes. It quickly becomes a habit, adding huge expense to the project, with no real improvement in results. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > > This welding thread has been lively. I started my factory career out in the early 80's as a materials engineering chemist with Westinghouse, where I ran production control and failure analysis on plating, coatings, zinc galvanizing, welding, brazing, ceramics etc. I ran a chem analysis and metrology lab for about 5 years. > > There seems to be a wholesale dislike of MIG in the group of repliers with explanations of serious failures of welds attributed to the MIG technique and how some other technique or approach saved the day. If someone takes offense to this statement, I apologize up front, my intent is just to examine the failures, to provide a voice for MIG and to try not to insult anyone. I doubt if I will succeed, but please do not take any insult from my comment. But I do feel that there are issues that must be dispelled. This is one of those never ending battles that has gone on for over 50 years. > > >Breaking aluminum MIG welds and Hot Galvanize welds breaking with 035 wire. > Bad welds, bad technique in both cases. Too little heat or too fast with gun in aluminum, built up aluminum oxide making filler brittle. Galvanize, poor penetration from welding too fast or too low amp setting, sulfuric acid attack during pickling probably attacked weld also. Problems cited to fix both problems compensated for incorrect technique. > > >Stick is stronger than MIG > False, false and false again. Sticks and wire are rated on physically measureable properties. A rod and wire of the same physical/chemical specification are the same and will yield the same strength of weld, provided the proper technique for each filler material and welding approach is employed. If it doesn't, then the person or robot doing the weld is doing it wrong or the quality of the filler material is suspect. > > >A stick welder with a 50 foot stinger cable > I don't know, you can drag 85lbs of 000 cable (or 125lbs of 00) or a 65lb MIG on wheels (clarke 180en). I grab the handle on my clarke and away I go. If I need to pick it up, no problems. > > >To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig welding that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material with the same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. Current density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. Last I looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You are sort of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the center of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed more amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point between the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the 6500K typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach the temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel in this type of welding. > > >MIG is harder than stick, stick is harder than MIG > Both are correct. Each technique has its difficult points. With stick,striking the arc and returning to the joint and moving the rod side to side, in and down the weld all at the same time are tough for people to master at first. Cold starts with MIG, just wait 1/2 second before going down the weld. I've seen plenty of bad stick welds as well as MIG welds. Good penetration with 035 wire is a big issue. All of these are technique/training issue and not equipment failures. > > In both techniques too little time is spent on explaining to new welders what is good and bad about puddle development and manipulation. When I show people how to get the puddle swirling as the filler comes off the wire or rod and to use that to develop the weld and penetration, you can see the light go off in their heads and they can't wait to try it out. The books aren't showing them how to take the force of the arc and bisect the joint to push filler into the molten base metal and how the angle of the gun or rod alters this. > > A 175-1809A MIG will give you just as good and strong a weld as a 200A stick welder. There are alot more used 200A stick welders out there than MIG, so if pricing is at question, may be the best way to go. For less than a 1000 Euros (I looked up pricing in Euros for the pricing currency sensitive) for a new welder in this class, in what could be a 10-20,000 or more Euros project, seems a little trivial to quibble on the initial cost of a good welder. As far as operational costs, typically there won't be enough of a difference to give MIG-gas, MIG-gasless, or stick an overwhelming advantage. All three approaches will yield equal results, provided they are performed correctly. Pricing say be significantly different depending on location. But at least the thread has presented the major cost items and expendables to look at when deciding. > > Find people who have both types of welders or a welding supply that will let you play a little. Get some 10cm wide, 6mm thick flat stock and practice. Take a class or rent time if you can. Then decide on what type of welder you prefer. Then you too can join the great, neverending, MIG versus Stick debate. > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > | 20638|20553|2009-06-11 14:28:40|brentswain38|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|Email me your postal address. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > If you send it to me I will definitely use it!Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:34:13 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. I have the cutting pattern for a 6 inch mast 2 to 1 scarf, if you need it. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > Brent,when you say 2 to 1 scarf on a 6 in. tubing, do you mean the scarf is 12 in long. Martin. > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:49:32 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a 6 inch OD with a 1/8th wall , roughly the same weight as a solid fir , or a 5 1/2 by 8 inch spruce box section with 1 1/4 inch walls, and far stronger. Seal it airtight and you have no worries about internal corrosion. Hollow wood masts tend to rot from the inside and are far more complicated to attatch stays and shrouds etc to than a steel mast. > > > > > > Lately I have been using a 2 to 1 scarf to joint 20 foot sections , much lighter and easier to do than sleeves, and just as strong as the original pipe. > > > > > > People who have switched from 6 5/8th well tubing to aluminium haven't found a huge improvement in sailing performance and one said if he had 6 inch instead of 6 5/8th, the change would have been unoticeable. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel is more that 40% lighter than a solid wood mast of the same strength according to the utility pole makers. But you can build a hollow wood mast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm still looking for an aluminum utility pole as a possible alternative, but so far have had no luck. My guess is that the increase in cost is going to be greater than the decrease in weight and maintenance anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug Jackson > > > > > > > SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Nous sommes vos photos. Partagez-nous dès maintenant avec Windows Live Photos. > > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666051 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Créez un personnage à votre image pour votre WL Messenger > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656622 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20639|20635|2009-06-11 15:25:41|will jones|Re: choice of welder|High amps to push a 7024 rod, throwing a lot of filler sure makes up for bad welding technique.  I can teach a monkey to slop on rod, especially with a mild steel drag rod like 7024.  Now I am not calling you a monkey Brent. :)    Or I can take an hour of time and have someone turning out nice, clean, strong, MIG or stick welds by sticking the gun or stinger in their hand and showing them how welding works and explaining how the puddle, filler and base metal interact.  No books involved.  Once they learn what they are looking at and for, it doesn't matter what they are welding with.  Then when they grab that thinner piece of steel they won't be burning 1/2" holes because they are trying to slop on rod.   I don't condem stick and I don't think MIG is the only way to go.  However, I am more than happy to debunk these anti-MIG myths. I don't advocate a few dollars more mentality on everything.  However, the welder is the primary tool.  You can pick up good used ones cheap, you can resell them or keep them around for more work.  One can always use a welder and a MIG is definitely more versatile than a stick welder.  Besides, once you get a welder, you realize how much better of a man you are with a welder.  I'll keep my welders till I die. --- On Thu, 6/11/09, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: choice of welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 2:27 PM When pulling a hull together for a first time builder many of whom are doubtfull about the strength of their welds, and have zero welding experience , I let them weld the pull tabs on, with 1/8th 7024. Then, after pulling the hull together I let them try to break the tabs off with a sledge hammer. When they are dripping with sweat and have bent the tabs back and forth many times , only to have them break well up from the weld, I ask them "Are you still worried about the strength of your welds? How does that compare to a copper fastening in red cedar every 6 inches? By the time one has tacked together a hull and decks, and done all the structurally unimportant welding, one is quite good with a stinger. I like to let the owner do as much of the unimportant welding as possible , to get him or her used to welding. Even the worst welder is far less likely to get a weak weld with stick than with wire, and there is no justification fore the extra expense of a wire welder, for a one off boat. Boatbuilding and cruising budgets die the death of a thousand cuts, none of which is by itself all that expensive, and forming the habit of saying " What is a few extra bucks for this or that , has killed far more cruising dreams than all other causes. It quickly becomes a habit, adding huge expense to the project, with no real improvement in results. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, will jones wrote: > > > This welding thread has been lively. I started my factory career out in the early 80's as a materials engineering chemist with Westinghouse, where I ran production control and failure analysis on plating, coatings, zinc galvanizing, welding, brazing, ceramics etc. I ran a chem analysis and metrology lab for about 5 years. > > There seems to be a wholesale dislike of MIG in the group of repliers with explanations of serious failures of welds attributed to the MIG technique and how some other technique or approach saved the day. If someone takes offense to this statement, I apologize up front, my intent is just to examine the failures, to provide a voice for MIG and to try not to insult anyone. I doubt if I will succeed, but please do not take any insult from my comment. But I do feel that there are issues that must be dispelled. This is one of those never ending battles that has gone on for over 50 years. > > >Breaking aluminum MIG welds and Hot Galvanize welds breaking with 035 wire. > Bad welds, bad technique in both cases. Too little heat or too fast with gun in aluminum, built up aluminum oxide making filler brittle. Galvanize, poor penetration from welding too fast or too low amp setting, sulfuric acid attack during pickling probably attacked weld also. Problems cited to fix both problems compensated for incorrect technique. > > >Stick is stronger than MIG > False, false and false again. Sticks and wire are rated on physically measureable properties. A rod and wire of the same physical/chemical specification are the same and will yield the same strength of weld, provided the proper technique for each filler material and welding approach is employed. If it doesn't, then the person or robot doing the weld is doing it wrong or the quality of the filler material is suspect. > > >A stick welder with a 50 foot stinger cable > I don't know, you can drag 85lbs of 000 cable (or 125lbs of 00) or a 65lb MIG on wheels (clarke 180en). I grab the handle on my clarke and away I go. If I need to pick it up, no problems. > > >To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig welding that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material with the same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. Current density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. Last I looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You are sort of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the center of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed more amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point between the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the 6500K typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach the temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel in this type of welding. > > >MIG is harder than stick, stick is harder than MIG > Both are correct. Each technique has its difficult points. With stick,striking the arc and returning to the joint and moving the rod side to side, in and down the weld all at the same time are tough for people to master at first. Cold starts with MIG, just wait 1/2 second before going down the weld. I've seen plenty of bad stick welds as well as MIG welds. Good penetration with 035 wire is a big issue. All of these are technique/training issue and not equipment failures. > > In both techniques too little time is spent on explaining to new welders what is good and bad about puddle development and manipulation. When I show people how to get the puddle swirling as the filler comes off the wire or rod and to use that to develop the weld and penetration, you can see the light go off in their heads and they can't wait to try it out. The books aren't showing them how to take the force of the arc and bisect the joint to push filler into the molten base metal and how the angle of the gun or rod alters this. > > A 175-1809A MIG will give you just as good and strong a weld as a 200A stick welder. There are alot more used 200A stick welders out there than MIG, so if pricing is at question, may be the best way to go. For less than a 1000 Euros (I looked up pricing in Euros for the pricing currency sensitive) for a new welder in this class, in what could be a 10-20,000 or more Euros project, seems a little trivial to quibble on the initial cost of a good welder. As far as operational costs, typically there won't be enough of a difference to give MIG-gas, MIG-gasless, or stick an overwhelming advantage. All three approaches will yield equal results, provided they are performed correctly. Pricing say be significantly different depending on location. But at least the thread has presented the major cost items and expendables to look at when deciding. > > Find people who have both types of welders or a welding supply that will let you play a little. Get some 10cm wide, 6mm thick flat stock and practice. Take a class or rent time if you can. Then decide on what type of welder you prefer. Then you too can join the great, neverending, MIG versus Stick debate. > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20640|20546|2009-06-11 15:33:42|theboilerflue|Re: Choice of welder|I used a lincon wire feed welder for most of the mild steel work that had to be done when i got my boat. So i did the outside seams on the hull and a bunch of the deck and inside with gas shielded wire (i'm inside) I used some flux core as well. After hauling the damn welder all around the boat along with the power cord and gas hose and stinger (which is always way to short) and ground clamp I really wish that i had just gotten a nice buzzbox instead. The wire feed was fast, except i had to stop and clean or change tips (and buy tips they are not tha cheap), Go get more gas (BUYBUYBUY) or change wire or change the wire housing, the spools that push the wire through the housing will eventually wear out so one must replace them. All of these things stop work on the boat until they're fixed. The gas isn't cheap flux core is usually twice the price of solid core wire. Always adjusting the feed or the current levels . I ran stainless through it a bit which worked pretty nice except that it spit slag everywhere so i had little stainless balls all over the boat, a pretty good amount of metal wasted in slag along, a gut at the welding shop told me the way to stop this is to cover the area around the work with anti-spatter goo - could I waste more time? Of course one can weld aluminum with those things but you'll need a sperate pound gun cause you're not going to be able to work alu. wire all the way through the housing, best get one you can hook up to the arc welder. The nicest thing about mig i found was tacking things in place - works so well for that cause you can rest the stinger right on the work, helmet down and press the weld button. Other than tacking stuff I have nothing good to say about those things I think you'd be better off (and learn to weld better) with a stick welder and they're way cheaper and I imagine it's easier to find sticks anywhere in the world than it is to find all those (brand) specific parts metioned above. stick with stick. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > The cost of a good wire feed machine far out weights the benifites of a low cost stick welding machine. People say wire is easy to learn but dont be fooled. There is an art to it and it does take a lot more practice to get it consistantly right. Yes you can weld faster but one can also make bigger mistakes. Look back into the past messages before you realy commit yourself. > Aaron > > --- On Wed, 6/10/09, sae140 wrote: > > > From: sae140 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 8:14 AM > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mllmag" wrote: > > So using flux core in MIG welding gives the same strenght as welding with a shielding gas. > > Before getting too enthusiastic about fluxed 'MIG' wire, you might like to do your homework regarding the relative costs involved. > > I've just done a quick 'Google' and couldn't easily find anyone selling full-sized reels of gas-less wire, but one site is offering Midi (8") sized spools of normal wire for £15, whereas the same sized spool (4.54Kg) of gas-less wire is £52. > For comparison, a 5Kg box of 6013 rods will set you back around £10-12. > > Bear in mind that you'll be getting through quite a few boxes or reels while building a boat. > > 'best, Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20641|20641|2009-06-11 16:10:09|brentswain38|Steve Clement|I just got an email on origami boats from Steve Clement in New Zealand which I tried to reply to, but it wouldn't go thru. Steve , if you have another email address , could you please email me again? Brent| 20642|20642|2009-06-11 16:23:33|denis buggy|Re: gary lucas post on welding|this post attached . from Gary Lucas covers the topic fully , i have been welding for 30 years and i am not qualified nor do i have even a fraction of the technical welding knowledge which is sometimes posted here --however i have 3 migs and 2 oil and 2 fan cooled stick welders most are three phase and the single phase mig is rarely used and we keep very light wire in it to do dainty jobs otherwise it is never used as we prefer a 600 amp oil cooled BOC ( cost 250 euros at auction) for heavy metal and a Lincoln 400 with a wire feed on a long jib for most other work ( cost 350 euros at auction ) . if you submit work for welding you will not see a pro use a single phase machine and he will invariably mig weld any mild steel --he does have a choice and he makes his choice based on sound reasons as enunciated by mr Gary Lucas below based on what i have learned over 30 years i would do a deal with a man who had a mobile welding plant . i would take my time and check him out and view some of his work and do a little talking to people who give him repeat business and i would do a deal to weld the entire boat apart from some small odds and ends you could do yourself . you would have a strong boat with a higher value finished in a way you will never learn because you will never have the opportunity to learn nor the funds to buy the amps and gear to do the business as described by mr Lucas . the cost of wheezing buzz boxes and fine wire to make it buzz is a travesty of common sense when you have a steel structure to make which has to keep you alive and have a resale value , any surveyor will look at the welding first and will remove thousands from any boat visibly buzz boxed and then the arithmetic really kicks in and the guy with the skill and equipment becomes a very cheap item . regards denis buggy The issue is very simple. To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig welding that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material with the same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" simply can not carry enough current to get good penetration. Metal gets deposited on top with a beautiful bead and almost no fusion zone. Mig welding with cheap welders have another big problem. A good industrial constant voltage mig welder will supply 1000 to 2000 amps into the arc at start! This causes the wire to burn back instantly without stubbing the work piece and the extra heat gets the fusion zone going right from the start. It is impossible to do this with a cheap welder running from an underpowered source of electricity. I used to repair welders for a local gas dealer. Two or three machines a week, every week. All kinds of machines, stick, Tig, Mig, you name it. Good commercial welding machines last a VERY long time! They also hold their value well. I think buying a good used commercial welding machine and building your boat, then selling it off for what you paid is a much better proposition than a cheap machine. A good welder can do miracles with almost any welder. So how many of you are real expert welders? Why not buy a welding machine that is easier to use so you are not at such a disadvantage? Everything from cars to bridges are being welded with Mig now. For a very good reason. Despite the higher cost of consumables the cost per pound actually deposited is far lower. The lower cost comes from less labor, and less wasted metal. Those short stubs you leave from every stick wire adds up fast. The welds are BETTER than stick welds too! A large part of this is because the welding process requires far less skill from the operator. However it takes MORE skill to properly set up the welding machine. If you don't know how to do it, then you'll be very unimpressed with the results using Mig. Bottom line is that Mig welding can produce a sound boat, IF you are using a good machine, set up right. Stick can also produce a sound boat IF you know how to stick weld properly MARKETPLACE I Make $350 per Day. Learn how I make 10k a month after I Got Fired!. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ How Many Triangles? 92.6% of Americans Fail this Question!. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mom Power: Discover the community of moms doing more for their families, for the world and for each other Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity a.. 5New Members Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Fashion News What's the word on fashion and style? Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. Yahoo! Groups Mom Power Just for moms Join the discussion . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20643|20546|2009-06-11 16:38:19|lachica31|Re: Choice of welder|Well after seeing this thread just go on and on and on and... I feel I have to put in my 10 cents worth as well (probably more than its worth :-). When I built La Chica (not an origami boat) I bought a second hand industrial mig (a Hobart 500 amp unit) and a cheap (Taiwanese) oil cooled stick welder. The oil cooled stick welder got hot a lot slower than the air cooled units but once hot, took forever to cool down. I got round that problem by putting it in a drum of water. After than it never over heated again. Once I learnt to use the Hobart (mig) it was fantastic. It had a separate head that while still heavy could be moved around the boat quite easily. I never had to bring it into the boat, I was always able to position the head by a hatch or port and just drop the lead in. Yes, there was a lot of fooling around with the wire feed, nozzles et al especially in the beginning but in the end the time saved by not having to chip slag and clean up all the time made it well worth the effort of learning to use it. Note that in an origami boat like that of Brent's designs, the benefit of mig would be much less as there is much. much less welding to do. The cost of the Hobart was zero (apart from running costs) as I sold for nearly exactly what I paid for it. If I were to build a Brent boat (I am, a BS36) I would be more than happy to do it with a Lincoln 220A buzz box, they are great welders for the money. But likely this time, I am just going to tack the whole boat together and hire a professional welder (with his own mig) to come and finish the job. One tool that I find very, very useful is an auto darkening welding helmet. If you weld a lot on your own (and if you are building a boat you will be) the connivance of having both hands free cannot be beat. But be wary of the cheap ones, they can be more trouble than they are worth especially if they are slow to darken, that can lead to arc eye which is not overly enjoyable. I have used to brands, Speedglas http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_WW/SpeedglasGlobal/Home/ and the Miller Elite http://www.millerwelds.com/products/weldinghelmets/digital-elite.php The Speedglas is far superior to the Millar and (in NZ) is twice the price. It is worth every cent. Regards, Paul Thompson| 20644|20553|2009-06-11 19:42:19|martin demers|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|Martin Demers 400 De Bienville St-Calixte Quebec J0K 1Z0 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:28:38 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast Email me your postal address. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > If you send it to me I will definitely use it!Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:34:13 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. I have the cutting pattern for a 6 inch mast 2 to 1 scarf, if you need it. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > Brent,when you say 2 to 1 scarf on a 6 in. tubing, do you mean the scarf is 12 in long. Martin. > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:49:32 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found a 6 inch OD with a 1/8th wall , roughly the same weight as a solid fir , or a 5 1/2 by 8 inch spruce box section with 1 1/4 inch walls, and far stronger. Seal it airtight and you have no worries about internal corrosion. Hollow wood masts tend to rot from the inside and are far more complicated to attatch stays and shrouds etc to than a steel mast. > > > > > > Lately I have been using a 2 to 1 scarf to joint 20 foot sections , much lighter and easier to do than sleeves, and just as strong as the original pipe. > > > > > > People who have switched from 6 5/8th well tubing to aluminium haven't found a huge improvement in sailing performance and one said if he had 6 inch instead of 6 5/8th, the change would have been unoticeable. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel is more that 40% lighter than a solid wood mast of the same strength according to the utility pole makers. But you can build a hollow wood mast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm still looking for an aluminum utility pole as a possible alternative, but so far have had no luck. My guess is that the increase in cost is going to be greater than the decrease in weight and maintenance anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug Jackson > > > > > > > SubmarineBoat.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Nous sommes vos photos. Partagez-nous dès maintenant avec Windows Live Photos. > > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666051 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Créez un personnage à votre image pour votre WL Messenger > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656622 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Attention à tous les Humains. Nous sommes vos photos. Libérez-nous de vos disques durs. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666050 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20645|20635|2009-06-11 19:50:42|Gary H. Lucas|Re: choice of welder|Will, You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you can with 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the business. My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off inside portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a cord we would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So we thought about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull about 28 amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the ground wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground wire, that's 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would burn that tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire current! We felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire cord was getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire is not just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a really short piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little resistance. Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat generated is very small, and won't burn off the wire. We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 volt short circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would reliably blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an undamaged cord. Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of the weld puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, a hell of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps before it melts into the arc. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "will jones" To: Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder >>To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig welding >>that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material with the >>same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. Current > density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. Last I > looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You are sort > of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the center > of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed more > amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point between > the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the 6500K > typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach the > temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel in this > type of welding. > | 20646|20635|2009-06-11 20:06:22|David Frantz|Re: choice of welder|The one problem here is that you need a welder capable of those currents. Most aren't. Atleast not in the same range as a buzz box. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 11, 2009, at 7:49 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Will, > You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you > can with > 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the > business. > My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off > inside > portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a > cord we > would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So we > thought > about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. > > We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull > about 28 > amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the > ground > wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground > wire, that's > 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would > burn that > tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire > current! We > felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire > cord was > getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? > > So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire > is not > just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a > really short > piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little > resistance. > Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat > generated is > very small, and won't burn off the wire. > > We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 volt > short > circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That > provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would > reliably > blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an > undamaged > cord. > > Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of > the weld > puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, > a hell > of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps > before it > melts into the arc. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "will jones" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder > > >>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig >>> welding >>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material >>> with the >>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" >> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. Current >> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. >> Last I >> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You >> are sort >> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the >> center >> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed >> more >> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point >> between >> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the >> 6500K >> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach >> the >> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel >> in this >> type of welding. >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20647|20635|2009-06-11 20:27:20|Gary H. Lucas|Re: choice of welder|David, The current we are talking about is in the range of 120 to 180 amps, a good comfortable buzz box range. The older mig welders were transformer welders, just like buzz boxes. A buzz box transformer is designed to droop the voltage as the current rises, thus keeping the current constant. A mig welder transformer is more like an ordinary transformer, with just a little droop. Hence the term constant voltage welder. When you strike an arc with a stick welder the voltage drops way off then comes back up as the arc is established. With a mig welder the voltage only droops a little at start, and the current shoots way up until the wire burns back. As the arc length increases the current drops because the voltage stays nearly the same. The only reason the cheap mig welders don't work so well is that they try to cheat on the physics of welding, which just can't be done. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Frantz" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > The one problem here is that you need a welder capable of those > currents. Most aren't. Atleast not in the same range as a buzz box. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jun 11, 2009, at 7:49 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > >> Will, >> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you >> can with >> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the >> business. >> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off >> inside >> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a >> cord we >> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So we >> thought >> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. >> >> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull >> about 28 >> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the >> ground >> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground >> wire, that's >> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would >> burn that >> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire >> current! We >> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire >> cord was >> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? >> >> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire >> is not >> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a >> really short >> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little >> resistance. >> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat >> generated is >> very small, and won't burn off the wire. >> >> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 volt >> short >> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That >> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would >> reliably >> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an >> undamaged >> cord. >> >> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of >> the weld >> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, >> a hell >> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps >> before it >> melts into the arc. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "will jones" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder >> >> >>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig >>>> welding >>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material >>>> with the >>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" >>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. Current >>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. >>> Last I >>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You >>> are sort >>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the >>> center >>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed >>> more >>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point >>> between >>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the >>> 6500K >>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach >>> the >>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel >>> in this >>> type of welding. >>> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >> ! Groups Links >> >> >> > | 20648|22|2009-06-12 17:39:35|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./285GAPL2-JN12-09.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Imagiro315. General Arrangement Plan B. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./285GAPL2-JN12-09.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20649|20649|2009-06-12 23:00:13|will jones|choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MATH I|Current density for a weld is power per square millimeter, typically in watts per square millimeter.  And power is current squared times resistance.  So the current densities can not be the same for 0.045" verses 0.125". However, using your line of reasoning they would still be different.  I have copper tables but no steel tables.  So I am going to use copper.  For comparison steel, is rated at 100 ohms-cmil/ft and copper is rated 10.09 ohms-cmil/ft.  So a simple iron carbon steel has 10x more resistance than copper.  Won't change the basic calculations, just the scale of the final numbers. 0.045 is close on to a 37 guage wire with a resistance of 0.52 ohm/ft for copper.  0.125" rod is pretty close to a guage 9 wire with a resistance if 0.0008 ohms/ft for copper.    There is over 600x difference in the resistance. So the current itself can't be the same for a fixed voltage.  But the voltages are different for MIG and SMAW, so lets look at that and the power delivered at the end of the electrode (rod or wire). What one has to look at is the secondary supply output.  The amps at the secondary will be the same at the end of electrode.  On my MIG it is 180A @30V  and on my 230A stick it is 230A @ 78V. I am not going to use resistance in the next determination (I've already shown its significantly different).  So what is the power we are going to get at the end of the electrode.  Power is what us turned into heat that melts the base metal.  So the power portion is 32400 for my MIG and 52900 for my Stick.  The power per square inch (no need to convert to mm since just showing relative difference) is 5,062500 for MIG and 1,079592 for Stick.  So roughly a 5x difference.  This would get larger if resistance was figured in due to large difference between the two guages. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 7:49 PM Will, You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you can with 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the business. My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off inside portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a cord we would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So we thought about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull about 28 amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the ground wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground wire, that's 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would burn that tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire current! We felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire cord was getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire is not just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a really short piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little resistance. Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat generated is very small, and won't burn off the wire. We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 volt short circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would reliably blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an undamaged cord. Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of the weld puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, a hell of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps before it melts into the arc. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "will jones" To: Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder >>To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig welding >>that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material with the >>same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. Current > density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. Last I > looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You are sort > of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the center > of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed more > amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point between > the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the 6500K > typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach the > temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel in this > type of welding. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20650|20635|2009-06-12 23:43:30|Aaron Williams|choice of welder|Besides the fact that without welders there would be no rocket science, I would think someone should start a welding forum somewhere else.  The fact still come down to what is the simplest way to build a steel sailboat.  Aaron  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20651|20635|2009-06-13 04:26:21|sae140|choice of welder|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Besides the fact that without welders there would be no rocket science, I would think someone should start a welding forum somewhere else. There are plenty of welding forums (or should that be 'fora' ?) around, but they tend to be designed for people who primarily want to weld, and to talk about nothing but welding, and where they compare each others welds and so on ... What it is that they weld is very much a secondary issue. > The fact still come down to what is the simplest way to build a steel sailboat. > Aaron > Exactly - there ain't any forums (fora) around dedicated to "just enough welding knowledge to build a steel boat" - well, except Origamiboats, of course ;^) Colin| 20652|20649|2009-06-13 19:41:32|Gary H. Lucas|Re: choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MA|Will, Hey if you are going to disagree at least do the math right! Note in your answer below that the ohms value quoted is in Circular Mils/Foot, in other words it's expressed in cross sectional area. Now in my part of the world a 0.045" wire has a cross sectional area of almost exactly 1/9 of a 0.125" wire, not the 1/600 area you quoted. Note the feet in the value equation. Your 0.125" welding rod is about a foot long. I stated that my 0.045" was about 1/2" long, 24 times shorter. So put 9/24 and you find that the 0.045" wire has about 3/8s as much resistance as a 0.125 welding rod! This of course all makes sense. Mig welders typically operate with an ARC voltage of 16 to 18 volts. A stick welder typically has an ARC voltage of about 30 volts. So the Mig welder can deliver the same energy into the weld because it can deliver more amps at a lower voltage. This all has to make sense because the reason you use a mig welder is to weld faster. In other words you melt more pounds of steel per minute than a stick welder can. The energy per pound to melt steel is the same for either process. Well the mig welder does have an advantage here. The faster you weld the LESS heat it takes, because the base metal can't conduct it away. Of course less heat in the base metal means less warping, but then boats don't warp do they? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "will jones" To: Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:00 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY Current density for a weld is power per square millimeter, typically in watts per square millimeter. And power is current squared times resistance. So the current densities can not be the same for 0.045" verses 0.125". However, using your line of reasoning they would still be different. I have copper tables but no steel tables. So I am going to use copper. For comparison steel, is rated at 100 ohms-cmil/ft and copper is rated 10.09 ohms-cmil/ft. So a simple iron carbon steel has 10x more resistance than copper. Won't change the basic calculations, just the scale of the final numbers. 0.045 is close on to a 37 guage wire with a resistance of 0.52 ohm/ft for copper. 0.125" rod is pretty close to a guage 9 wire with a resistance if 0.0008 ohms/ft for copper. There is over 600x difference in the resistance. So the current itself can't be the same for a fixed voltage. But the voltages are different for MIG and SMAW, so lets look at that and the power delivered at the end of the electrode (rod or wire). What one has to look at is the secondary supply output. The amps at the secondary will be the same at the end of electrode. On my MIG it is 180A @30V and on my 230A stick it is 230A @ 78V. I am not going to use resistance in the next determination (I've already shown its significantly different). So what is the power we are going to get at the end of the electrode. Power is what us turned into heat that melts the base metal. So the power portion is 32400 for my MIG and 52900 for my Stick. The power per square inch (no need to convert to mm since just showing relative difference) is 5,062500 for MIG and 1,079592 for Stick. So roughly a 5x difference. This would get larger if resistance was figured in due to large difference between the two guages. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: From: Gary H. Lucas Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 7:49 PM Will, You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you can with 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the business. My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off inside portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a cord we would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So we thought about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull about 28 amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the ground wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground wire, that's 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would burn that tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire current! We felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire cord was getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire is not just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a really short piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little resistance. Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat generated is very small, and won't burn off the wire. We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 volt short circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would reliably blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an undamaged cord. Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of the weld puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, a hell of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps before it melts into the arc. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "will jones" To: Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder >>To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig welding >>that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material with the >>same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. Current > density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. Last I > looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You are sort > of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the center > of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed more > amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point between > the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the 6500K > typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach the > temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel in this > type of welding. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20653|20635|2009-06-14 20:26:52|David Frantz|Re: choice of welder|I know the difference between constant current and constant voltage when it comes to welders. I'm not sure how that got into the discussion. The problem as I see it is that a mig welder is an expensive investment that can't do the whole job of putting the boat together. That even if you invest in a so called professional mig welder. Atleast not with the ease that you would have with a stick. You might convince me that a multi process welder is a good idea but that is so only if the buyer has intentions beyound building the ships structure and can afford the equipment. I'm not against MIG welding as a process, the fact is I've welded up a lot of stuff with that process. I'm more concerned about the minimal investment required to get the job done, I think many here are missing that component in this thread. Even used hardware generally has a wide spread between the cost of a buzz box and a suitable MIG welder. Yes I know there are exceptions but around here suitable used equipment still gets a good price. I guess it depends upon how flush for money you are but big projects like these would be less sensitive to failure if capital outlay for tools where minimized. Especially in my case where just buying raw materials for a shell are a problem. Everyone has his or hers priorities, all I'm trying to get across is that you don't absolutely need an expensive welder and a MIG might not be able to do the whole ship. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 11, 2009, at 8:26 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > David, > The current we are talking about is in the range of 120 to 180 amps, > a good > comfortable buzz box range. The older mig welders were transformer > welders, > just like buzz boxes. A buzz box transformer is designed to droop the > voltage as the current rises, thus keeping the current constant. A > mig > welder transformer is more like an ordinary transformer, with just a > little > droop. Hence the term constant voltage welder. When you strike an > arc with > a stick welder the voltage drops way off then comes back up as the > arc is > established. With a mig welder the voltage only droops a little at > start, > and the current shoots way up until the wire burns back. As the arc > length > increases the current drops because the voltage stays nearly the same. > > The only reason the cheap mig welders don't work so well is that > they try to > cheat on the physics of welding, which just can't be done. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Frantz" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:02 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > > >> The one problem here is that you need a welder capable of those >> currents. Most aren't. Atleast not in the same range as a buzz >> box. >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Jun 11, 2009, at 7:49 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" >> wrote: >> >>> Will, >>> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you >>> can with >>> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the >>> business. >>> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off >>> inside >>> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a >>> cord we >>> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So we >>> thought >>> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. >>> >>> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull >>> about 28 >>> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the >>> ground >>> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground >>> wire, that's >>> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would >>> burn that >>> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire >>> current! We >>> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire >>> cord was >>> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? >>> >>> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire >>> is not >>> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a >>> really short >>> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little >>> resistance. >>> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat >>> generated is >>> very small, and won't burn off the wire. >>> >>> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 volt >>> short >>> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That >>> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would >>> reliably >>> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an >>> undamaged >>> cord. >>> >>> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of >>> the weld >>> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, >>> a hell >>> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps >>> before it >>> melts into the arc. >>> >>> Gary H. Lucas >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "will jones" >>> To: >>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM >>> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder >>> >>> >>>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig >>>>> welding >>>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material >>>>> with the >>>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" >>>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. >>>> Current >>>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. >>>> Last I >>>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You >>>> are sort >>>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the >>>> center >>>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed >>>> more >>>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point >>>> between >>>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the >>>> 6500K >>>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach >>>> the >>>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel >>>> in this >>>> type of welding. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20654|20553|2009-06-15 04:49:00|peter_d_wiley|Re: weight of a 6in. steel mast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Then dont tell me how much weigh a solid wood mast!!! The question is impossible to answer as asked anyway. You need to ask what the mass per cubic centimeter of a particular species of timber is, then calculate just how much of it you have/need, then you'll have the answer. Here is the first of many hits on timber density. http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_wood.htm If you have a 12m solid round oregon mast of 150mm OD, it's mass is 12 * (0.075^2) * 3.141 * 530, using 530 kg/m3 as the mass of oregon. Square & rectangular sections are no more difficult. Conic - exercise for the student. 5 tonnes of my steel arrives in 3 days. PDW| 20655|20655|2009-06-15 14:45:58|edward_stoneuk|sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood|Hi all, Soon I will be fitting the cabin, hatches and pilot house 10mm acrylic windows. What are your favourite sealants for sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood, and what cleaners and primers have been used before applying the sealant? Thanks, Ted| 20656|20655|2009-06-15 15:16:05|Carl Anderson|Re: sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood|Why are you sealing them to wood? And why not use tempered glass? Carl sv-mom.com edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > Hi all, > > Soon I will be fitting the cabin, hatches and pilot house 10mm acrylic > windows. What are your favourite sealants for sealing acrylic windows > to steel and wood, and what cleaners and primers have been used before > applying the sealant? > > Thanks, > > Ted > > | 20657|20635|2009-06-15 23:40:56|Carl Volkwein|Re: choice of welder|Does anyone here have experiance welding with a welder made from a lawnmower and a auto. alternator? and if so how was it? carlvolkwein --- On Sun, 6/14/09, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 8:22 PM I know the difference between constant current and constant voltage when it comes to welders. I'm not sure how that got into the discussion. The problem as I see it is that a mig welder is an expensive investment that can't do the whole job of putting the boat together. That even if you invest in a so called professional mig welder. Atleast not with the ease that you would have with a stick. You might convince me that a multi process welder is a good idea but that is so only if the buyer has intentions beyound building the ships structure and can afford the equipment. I'm not against MIG welding as a process, the fact is I've welded up a lot of stuff with that process. I'm more concerned about the minimal investment required to get the job done, I think many here are missing that component in this thread. Even used hardware generally has a wide spread between the cost of a buzz box and a suitable MIG welder. Yes I know there are exceptions but around here suitable used equipment still gets a good price. I guess it depends upon how flush for money you are but big projects like these would be less sensitive to failure if capital outlay for tools where minimized. Especially in my case where just buying raw materials for a shell are a problem. Everyone has his or hers priorities, all I'm trying to get across is that you don't absolutely need an expensive welder and a MIG might not be able to do the whole ship. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 11, 2009, at 8:26 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > David, > The current we are talking about is in the range of 120 to 180 amps, > a good > comfortable buzz box range. The older mig welders were transformer > welders, > just like buzz boxes. A buzz box transformer is designed to droop the > voltage as the current rises, thus keeping the current constant. A > mig > welder transformer is more like an ordinary transformer, with just a > little > droop. Hence the term constant voltage welder. When you strike an > arc with > a stick welder the voltage drops way off then comes back up as the > arc is > established. With a mig welder the voltage only droops a little at > start, > and the current shoots way up until the wire burns back. As the arc > length > increases the current drops because the voltage stays nearly the same. > > The only reason the cheap mig welders don't work so well is that > they try to > cheat on the physics of welding, which just can't be done. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Frantz" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:02 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > > >> The one problem here is that you need a welder capable of those >> currents. Most aren't. Atleast not in the same range as a buzz >> box. >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@ mac.com >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Jun 11, 2009, at 7:49 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" >> wrote: >> >>> Will, >>> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you >>> can with >>> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the >>> business. >>> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off >>> inside >>> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a >>> cord we >>> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So we >>> thought >>> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. >>> >>> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull >>> about 28 >>> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the >>> ground >>> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground >>> wire, that's >>> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would >>> burn that >>> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire >>> current! We >>> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire >>> cord was >>> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? >>> >>> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire >>> is not >>> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a >>> really short >>> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little >>> resistance. >>> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat >>> generated is >>> very small, and won't burn off the wire. >>> >>> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 volt >>> short >>> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That >>> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would >>> reliably >>> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an >>> undamaged >>> cord. >>> >>> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of >>> the weld >>> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, >>> a hell >>> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps >>> before it >>> melts into the arc. >>> >>> Gary H. Lucas >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "will jones" >>> To: >>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM >>> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder >>> >>> >>>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig >>>>> welding >>>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material >>>>> with the >>>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" >>>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. >>>> Current >>>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. >>>> Last I >>>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You >>>> are sort >>>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the >>>> center >>>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed >>>> more >>>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point >>>> between >>>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the >>>> 6500K >>>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach >>>> the >>>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel >>>> in this >>>> type of welding. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20658|20658|2009-06-16 01:53:16|carolinewilsonplaces|New Freebies June 16|Dear Member As a special treat for members, we have found another great page full of free-stuff you can collect INSTANTLY! There is so much to grab, its definately worth the visit. Simply click on the link below and it will take you directly to this amazing freebie page! http://groups.google.com/group/freebiepeople/web/freebies-june-16 If you can't find this 'temporary' page, visit: FreebieTelegraph (dot com), and there you will find more freebies, and a link to the LATEST ones! Thank you for all your support!| 20659|20655|2009-06-16 03:44:55|edward_stoneuk|Re: sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood|Hi Carl, The acrylic windows will be on the inside of the steel, sandwiched between it and a 3/4" (20mm) plywood frame with 1/4" (6 mm) bolts at 2" (50mm) spacing. Acrylic is about half the density of glass. I am trying to reduce top weight where I can. That said, glass would be more see through after a few years and I had thought about using it for the pilot house. I have bought the cut to size acrylic now though. > Why are you sealing them to wood? > And why not use tempered glass? > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > | 20660|20660|2009-06-16 14:03:34|n_crevar|Let me introduce myself|My name is Nash. For years I have been religiously following discussions and ideas on this group and trying to learn as much I could... Not having any worthwhile experience on the subject to share and contribute to the group, I was just quietly sitting in the last row in the classroom and trying to pickup things... On the questions I was abut to ask - the answers just appeared... What brought me here? I want to sail the sailboat which will be also my home. Maybe sail the Ocean alone some day?? And no, I don't have any worthwhile sailing experience. I know that I will get some good laughs now. (But why not. I always prefer to make people laugh than cry). Sailing is one of my childhood dreams that never really materialized, but never faded away either. On the contrary, it was only growing with time. Back, some ten years ago, when I was living in Vancouver (still having a family at that time, now I am divorced) and doing research of the ways to accomplish this goal, I was regularly visiting different marinas and boatyards ... I came across unusual build steel boats that attracted my attention. Later I learned that they were Brent's designs... Then I discovered origami group on Yahoo, ordered Brent's "Heretics guide", plans for 36 footer, excellent video that Alex made... I made countless cardboard models of the boat since... What was Brent saying over the years in origami group, made for me far more sense than any other information from any source I could find. I changed my life stile. Got rid of my car, TV, stopped going out, choose very small and modest pace for living, cut material possessions to minimum... all as a step in adaptation for different life stile and to maximize investing and saving for the future boat... My original plan to step of the tread mill (as Brent would put it...) was 2010. But current events in economy, especially in auto industry which I was part of, made a slight change in the plans. So am back here. Ready as I'll ever be. I am aware of the fact that before I can read I have to learn letters first. And my first step should be to learn as much as I can. Before I moved to east in search for a job, I finished basic boating course at Vancouver CPS which gave me some very basic training, more an idea... So I would appreciated any help. If you are building, modifying, or just fixing your boat I am offering my hand in return for chance to learn something. Tools and work are not strange to me. Maybe if you are planing some sailing, and you do not mind companion of someone who is eager to learn and do things, I would be extremely happy and thankful. Or if you would like just to share some stories and experiences.... I am pretty mobile, living in the old FedEx van, touring the island, enjoying the beauty of nature, and "charging my mental batteries". (A few pictures of this journey from Windsor you can see on: http://ncrevar.webs.com/apps/photos/ ) Currently I am near Victoria and planing to go slowly toward north. I would love to meet Brent at his convenience... My biggest problem currently is communication. I do not have own connection to the Internet, my cell phone (Virgin) does not work here most of the time, but is also Windsor number (519) 790 8416, maybe text message would work... But I'll be checking group whenever I have a chance ... and I want to thank you all, for all those pieces of information, experience, wisdom and encouragement that I got through this group over the years... Nash| 20661|20661|2009-06-16 14:11:07|n_crevar|Let me introduce myself 2|and I almost forgot... my e-mail address is n_crevar@...| 20662|20660|2009-06-16 14:14:56|Keith Green|Re: Let me introduce myself|Nice post. There is a current ad on Vancouver Craigslist looking for crew, should you want sailing practice/experience. Keith n_crevar wrote: > My name is Nash. > For years I have been religiously following discussions and ideas on this group and trying to learn as much I could... Not having any worthwhile experience on the subject to share and contribute to the group, I was just quietly sitting in the last row in the classroom and trying to pickup things... On the questions I was abut to ask - the answers just appeared... > > What brought me here? I want to sail the sailboat which will be also my home. Maybe sail the Ocean alone some day?? And no, I don't have any worthwhile sailing experience. > > I know that I will get some good laughs now. (But why not. I always prefer to make people laugh than cry). Sailing is one of my childhood dreams that never really materialized, but never faded away either. On the contrary, it was only growing with time. > > Back, some ten years ago, when I was living in Vancouver (still having a family at that time, now I am divorced) and doing research of the ways to accomplish this goal, I was regularly visiting different marinas and boatyards ... I came across unusual build steel boats that attracted my attention. Later I learned that they were Brent's designs... Then I discovered origami group on Yahoo, ordered Brent's "Heretics guide", plans for 36 footer, excellent video that Alex made... I made countless cardboard models of the boat since... > What was Brent saying over the years in origami group, made for me far more sense than any other information from any source I could find. > I changed my life stile. Got rid of my car, TV, stopped going out, choose very small and modest pace for living, cut material possessions to minimum... all as a step in adaptation for different life stile and to maximize investing and saving for the future boat... > > My original plan to step of the tread mill (as Brent would put it...) was 2010. But current events in economy, especially in auto industry which I was part of, made a slight change in the plans. So am back here. Ready as I'll ever be. > I am aware of the fact that before I can read I have to learn letters first. And my first step should be to learn as much as I can. > > Before I moved to east in search for a job, I finished basic boating course at Vancouver CPS which gave me some very basic training, more an idea... > > So I would appreciated any help. > If you are building, modifying, or just fixing your boat I am offering my hand in return for chance to learn something. Tools and work are not strange to me. > Maybe if you are planing some sailing, and you do not mind companion of someone who is eager to learn and do things, I would be extremely happy and thankful. Or if you would like just to share some stories and experiences.... > > I am pretty mobile, living in the old FedEx van, touring the island, enjoying the beauty of nature, and "charging my mental batteries". > (A few pictures of this journey from Windsor you can see on: http://ncrevar.webs.com/apps/photos/ ) > Currently I am near Victoria and planing to go slowly toward north. > > I would love to meet Brent at his convenience... > > My biggest problem currently is communication. I do not have own connection to the Internet, my cell phone (Virgin) does not work here most of the time, but is also Windsor number (519) 790 8416, maybe text message would work... > > But I'll be checking group whenever I have a chance ... > > and I want to thank you all, for all those pieces of information, experience, wisdom and encouragement that I got through this group over the years... > > Nash > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.73/2180 - Release Date: 06/16/09 07:41:00 > > | 20663|20635|2009-06-16 17:07:12|brentswain38|Re: choice of welder|I use a 100 amp dodge alternator off my main engine , but the principle is the same. I feed the field thru a 65 watt 12 volt lightbulb to avoid feeding it too much and burning out the field windings. I put a toggle switch in so I can turn the field off when I'm not welding. I also put a 60 watt 120 volt bulb between the output and the ground to prevent frying the diodes when I break the arc. I use the engine RPM to control the amperage. I feed the field from my starting battery, but I understand that one can feed the field from the alternator output. Works well, smooth DC output. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Does anyone here have experiance welding with a welder made from a lawnmower and a auto. alternator? and if so how was it? > carlvolkwein > > --- On Sun, 6/14/09, David Frantz wrote: > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 8:22 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know the difference between constant current and constant voltage > > when it comes to welders. I'm not sure how that got into the > > discussion. > > > > The problem as I see it is that a mig welder is an expensive > > investment that can't do the whole job of putting the boat together. > > That even if you invest in a so called professional mig welder. > > Atleast not with the ease that you would have with a stick. > > > > You might convince me that a multi process welder is a good idea but > > that is so only if the buyer has intentions beyound building the ships > > structure and can afford the equipment. I'm not against MIG welding > > as a process, the fact is I've welded up a lot of stuff with that > > process. I'm more concerned about the minimal investment required to > > get the job done, I think many here are missing that component in this > > thread. Even used hardware generally has a wide spread between the > > cost of a buzz box and a suitable MIG welder. Yes I know there are > > exceptions but around here suitable used equipment still gets a good > > price. > > > > I guess it depends upon how flush for money you are but big projects > > like these would be less sensitive to failure if capital outlay for > > tools where minimized. Especially in my case where just buying raw > > materials for a shell are a problem. Everyone has his or hers > > priorities, all I'm trying to get across is that you don't absolutely > > need an expensive welder and a MIG might not be able to do the whole > > ship. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Jun 11, 2009, at 8:26 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > > > David, > > > The current we are talking about is in the range of 120 to 180 amps, > > > a good > > > comfortable buzz box range. The older mig welders were transformer > > > welders, > > > just like buzz boxes. A buzz box transformer is designed to droop the > > > voltage as the current rises, thus keeping the current constant. A > > > mig > > > welder transformer is more like an ordinary transformer, with just a > > > little > > > droop. Hence the term constant voltage welder. When you strike an > > > arc with > > > a stick welder the voltage drops way off then comes back up as the > > > arc is > > > established. With a mig welder the voltage only droops a little at > > > start, > > > and the current shoots way up until the wire burns back. As the arc > > > length > > > increases the current drops because the voltage stays nearly the same. > > > > > > The only reason the cheap mig welders don't work so well is that > > > they try to > > > cheat on the physics of welding, which just can't be done. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "David Frantz" > > > To: > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > > > > > > > > >> The one problem here is that you need a welder capable of those > > >> currents. Most aren't. Atleast not in the same range as a buzz > > >> box. > > >> > > >> David A Frantz > > >> > > >> websterindustro@ mac.com > > >> Sent from my iPhone. > > >> > > >> On Jun 11, 2009, at 7:49 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Will, > > >>> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you > > >>> can with > > >>> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the > > >>> business. > > >>> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off > > >>> inside > > >>> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a > > >>> cord we > > >>> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So we > > >>> thought > > >>> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. > > >>> > > >>> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull > > >>> about 28 > > >>> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the > > >>> ground > > >>> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground > > >>> wire, that's > > >>> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would > > >>> burn that > > >>> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire > > >>> current! We > > >>> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire > > >>> cord was > > >>> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? > > >>> > > >>> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire > > >>> is not > > >>> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a > > >>> really short > > >>> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little > > >>> resistance. > > >>> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat > > >>> generated is > > >>> very small, and won't burn off the wire. > > >>> > > >>> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 volt > > >>> short > > >>> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That > > >>> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would > > >>> reliably > > >>> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an > > >>> undamaged > > >>> cord. > > >>> > > >>> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of > > >>> the weld > > >>> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, > > >>> a hell > > >>> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps > > >>> before it > > >>> melts into the arc. > > >>> > > >>> Gary H. Lucas > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> From: "will jones" > > >>> To: > > >>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM > > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig > > >>>>> welding > > >>>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material > > >>>>> with the > > >>>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > > >>>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. > > >>>> Current > > >>>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. > > >>>> Last I > > >>>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You > > >>>> are sort > > >>>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the > > >>>> center > > >>>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed > > >>>> more > > >>>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point > > >>>> between > > >>>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the > > >>>> 6500K > > >>>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach > > >>>> the > > >>>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel > > >>>> in this > > >>>> type of welding. > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > >>> > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >>> origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > >>> ! Groups Links > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20664|20635|2009-06-16 17:08:38|brentswain38|Re: choice of welder|I also run my angle grinder from the welder output, and any other 120 volt tools I use. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Does anyone here have experiance welding with a welder made from a lawnmower and a auto. alternator? and if so how was it? > carlvolkwein > > --- On Sun, 6/14/09, David Frantz wrote: > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 8:22 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know the difference between constant current and constant voltage > > when it comes to welders. I'm not sure how that got into the > > discussion. > > > > The problem as I see it is that a mig welder is an expensive > > investment that can't do the whole job of putting the boat together. > > That even if you invest in a so called professional mig welder. > > Atleast not with the ease that you would have with a stick. > > > > You might convince me that a multi process welder is a good idea but > > that is so only if the buyer has intentions beyound building the ships > > structure and can afford the equipment. I'm not against MIG welding > > as a process, the fact is I've welded up a lot of stuff with that > > process. I'm more concerned about the minimal investment required to > > get the job done, I think many here are missing that component in this > > thread. Even used hardware generally has a wide spread between the > > cost of a buzz box and a suitable MIG welder. Yes I know there are > > exceptions but around here suitable used equipment still gets a good > > price. > > > > I guess it depends upon how flush for money you are but big projects > > like these would be less sensitive to failure if capital outlay for > > tools where minimized. Especially in my case where just buying raw > > materials for a shell are a problem. Everyone has his or hers > > priorities, all I'm trying to get across is that you don't absolutely > > need an expensive welder and a MIG might not be able to do the whole > > ship. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Jun 11, 2009, at 8:26 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > > > David, > > > The current we are talking about is in the range of 120 to 180 amps, > > > a good > > > comfortable buzz box range. The older mig welders were transformer > > > welders, > > > just like buzz boxes. A buzz box transformer is designed to droop the > > > voltage as the current rises, thus keeping the current constant. A > > > mig > > > welder transformer is more like an ordinary transformer, with just a > > > little > > > droop. Hence the term constant voltage welder. When you strike an > > > arc with > > > a stick welder the voltage drops way off then comes back up as the > > > arc is > > > established. With a mig welder the voltage only droops a little at > > > start, > > > and the current shoots way up until the wire burns back. As the arc > > > length > > > increases the current drops because the voltage stays nearly the same. > > > > > > The only reason the cheap mig welders don't work so well is that > > > they try to > > > cheat on the physics of welding, which just can't be done. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "David Frantz" > > > To: > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > > > > > > > > >> The one problem here is that you need a welder capable of those > > >> currents. Most aren't. Atleast not in the same range as a buzz > > >> box. > > >> > > >> David A Frantz > > >> > > >> websterindustro@ mac.com > > >> Sent from my iPhone. > > >> > > >> On Jun 11, 2009, at 7:49 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Will, > > >>> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you > > >>> can with > > >>> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the > > >>> business. > > >>> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off > > >>> inside > > >>> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a > > >>> cord we > > >>> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So we > > >>> thought > > >>> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. > > >>> > > >>> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull > > >>> about 28 > > >>> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the > > >>> ground > > >>> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground > > >>> wire, that's > > >>> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would > > >>> burn that > > >>> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire > > >>> current! We > > >>> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire > > >>> cord was > > >>> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? > > >>> > > >>> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire > > >>> is not > > >>> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a > > >>> really short > > >>> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little > > >>> resistance. > > >>> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat > > >>> generated is > > >>> very small, and won't burn off the wire. > > >>> > > >>> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 volt > > >>> short > > >>> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That > > >>> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would > > >>> reliably > > >>> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an > > >>> undamaged > > >>> cord. > > >>> > > >>> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of > > >>> the weld > > >>> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, > > >>> a hell > > >>> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps > > >>> before it > > >>> melts into the arc. > > >>> > > >>> Gary H. Lucas > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> From: "will jones" > > >>> To: > > >>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM > > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig > > >>>>> welding > > >>>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material > > >>>>> with the > > >>>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > > >>>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. > > >>>> Current > > >>>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. > > >>>> Last I > > >>>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You > > >>>> are sort > > >>>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the > > >>>> center > > >>>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed > > >>>> more > > >>>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point > > >>>> between > > >>>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the > > >>>> 6500K > > >>>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach > > >>>> the > > >>>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel > > >>>> in this > > >>>> type of welding. > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > >>> > > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >>> origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > >>> ! Groups Links > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20665|20665|2009-06-16 18:12:05|svseeker@ymail.com|Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|Following in Alex's foot steps, Kay and I put together a video on collecting and melting down lead wheel weights into ingots. Let me know if you have any suggestions. We still need 13,000 pounds more. :) Part 1 www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ljldtu-u-s Part 2 www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl-N-2Jgkr8 Best of Luck Doug Jackson Tulsa, OK SubmarineBoat.com| 20666|20665|2009-06-16 18:25:10|Alan H. Boucher|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|I see a lot of time in theater and shopping mall parking lots after dark in your future. svseeker@... wrote: > > > Following in Alex's foot steps, Kay and I put together a video on > collecting and melting down lead wheel weights into ingots. Let me > know if you have any suggestions. We still need 13,000 pounds more. :) > > Part 1 www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ljldtu-u-s > Part 2 www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl-N-2Jgkr8 > > Best of Luck > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > SubmarineBoat.com > > | 20667|20667|2009-06-16 21:26:01|boden36|Rust bullet|Have any of you used the product Rust Bullet and if so does it do what it says it will? Regards, Richard| 20668|20667|2009-06-16 21:34:52|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Rust bullet|Richard, We use it around a reverse osmosis facility that produces water for a remote US Naval facility. Between the local salt air in the tropic humidity and the brine we produce, Rust Billet does a great job of protecting our exposed ironwork with very little surface prep when we paint. R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of boden36 Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Rust bullet Have any of you used the product Rust Bullet and if so does it do what it says it will? Regards, Richard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20669|20669|2009-06-17 02:00:30|Space_cadet64|Main sheet arrangements|Hi everyone, I've been reading along with Origami boats for a few months now. I enjoy the sage advice and get a giggle out of the occasional flame :-) I'm the new owner of the 'What is' the flush deck 30' modification of the 31' brent design Here are some pictures that Alex took http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=brent+swain+30&w=all&s=int&referer_searched=1 I'm looking for some advice on the modification of the main sheet system. Currently the main sheet is in two parts, there are two sets of blocks, one set port and one set starboard, so to tack I wind up sheeting two lines instead of letting a traveller do it's thing. Now I'm lucky, some friends of mine have supplied me with some big honking 5/16" x 3" x 5" angle iron and a really heavy duty piece of steel track with a 8 bearing car (designed for an overhead ladder track) My thought is to weld the track to the angle iron and use the existing bolts/holes in the sea hood to bolt my fabricated traveller down. I'm thinking I'll reuse the block and tackle from the current setup to haul the traveller back and forth. The advantage of reusing the bolt holes mostly being I don't have to rip the insulation/liner limb from limb to make clean spots for welding. My question is what sort of blocks should I be looking for to use as the main sheet tackle? My budget is pretty shoestring, most of the lines/halyards are in need of replacement, so I'm saving my pennies for that. Are there any plans available to make home made blocks? I have access to a fair bit of equipment through various friends. I was looking at a double fiddle block on ebay, not cheap but I think a line that's fixed on one side of the traveller then to a double fiddle block that goes up to a triple block on the boom, the last length of sheet ending on a single block on the other side of the traveller and lead back into the cockpit through holes already in the doghouse seems like a solid solution. I've never setup the main sheet for a boat this big before (designed and built an 8' sailing dingy when I was 14) so I'm looking to bounce the idea off those with experience. Thanks!| 20670|20667|2009-06-17 03:50:12|polaris041|Re: Rust bullet|use of the search facility at the top of the page resulted in 74 hits for "rust bullet'. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "boden36" wrote: > > Have any of you used the product Rust Bullet and if so does it do what it says it will? Regards, Richard > | 20671|20665|2009-06-17 10:39:43|khooper_fboats|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|I know where a long-defunct outdoor shooting rage is, the bullet stop is a huge earth berm and over the years probably millions of rounds were shot into it, and I've been trying to work out a good way to excavate the bullets out for their lead. Last week I was shoveling the dirt into a 1/4" screen and trying to shake the bullets out. It works okay but the screen has no way to tell bullets from small rocks and there are a lot of rocks. I melted a pile of the "ore" down for a test and found that bullets and rocks make a fairly poor source for lead, there is so much copper jacketing and debris, and the jacketing is so jaggy, that it is hard to skim the debris off without leaving a lot of liquid lead trapped in the debris. Also there are a lot of these special bullets that law enforcement uses for practice, the lead is entirely encapsulated in a copper jacket to prevent the staff from so much lead exposure through lead dust created by gunfire. A noble idea, but to get the lead out of those you have to punch a hole or burn through the copper somehow. They are small and there are a lot of them. All in all it is a pain in the @ss but then again it is absolutely free. I need 11K pounds, so if the average round is 124 grains then I only need 620,968 bullets not counting the weight of debris. So no problem! Ken --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svseeker@..." wrote: > > Following in Alex's foot steps, Kay and I put together a video on collecting and melting down lead wheel weights into ingots. Let me know if you have any suggestions. We still need 13,000 pounds more. :) > > Part 1 www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ljldtu-u-s > Part 2 www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl-N-2Jgkr8 > > > Best of Luck > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > SubmarineBoat.com > | 20672|20669|2009-06-17 12:15:58|silascrosby|Re: Main sheet arrangements|I looked at the photos. You can just make your existing mainsheet one continuous line, rather than two separate purchases. No traveller. I have done the same for years.Seems to work quite well. It is about 6:1 purchase. Never need a winch for the mainsheet. There is enough friction in the blocks so that under load the lee part of the purchase can be hauled in and it pulls the boom mostly down to remove the twist from the mainsail. I also use a vang for the main when broadreaching. That is , unless you really want to make traveller. Plans for making good, cheap, strong blocks are in Brent's book. Buy several copies from him. They make wonderful wedding presents. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Space_cadet64" wrote: > > Hi everyone, I've been reading along with Origami boats for a few months now. I enjoy the sage advice and get a giggle out of the occasional flame :-) > > I'm the new owner of the 'What is' the flush deck 30' modification of the 31' brent design > > Here are some pictures that Alex took http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=brent+swain+30&w=all&s=int&referer_searched=1 > > I'm looking for some advice on the modification of the main sheet system. Currently the main sheet is in two parts, there are two sets of blocks, one set port and one set starboard, so to tack I wind up sheeting two lines instead of letting a traveller do it's thing. > > Now I'm lucky, some friends of mine have supplied me with some big honking 5/16" x 3" x 5" angle iron and a really heavy duty piece of steel track with a 8 bearing car (designed for an overhead ladder track) > > My thought is to weld the track to the angle iron and use the existing bolts/holes in the sea hood to bolt my fabricated traveller down. I'm thinking I'll reuse the block and tackle from the current setup to haul the traveller back and forth. > > The advantage of reusing the bolt holes mostly being I don't have to rip the insulation/liner limb from limb to make clean spots for welding. > > My question is what sort of blocks should I be looking for to use as the main sheet tackle? My budget is pretty shoestring, most of the lines/halyards are in need of replacement, so I'm saving my pennies for that. > > Are there any plans available to make home made blocks? I have access to a fair bit of equipment through various friends. I was looking at a double fiddle block on ebay, not cheap but I think a line that's fixed on one side of the traveller then to a double fiddle block that goes up to a triple block on the boom, the last length of sheet ending on a single block on the other side of the traveller and lead back into the cockpit through holes already in the doghouse seems like a solid solution. > > I've never setup the main sheet for a boat this big before (designed and built an 8' sailing dingy when I was 14) so I'm looking to bounce the idea off those with experience. > > Thanks! > | 20673|20669|2009-06-17 13:14:28|Carl Anderson|Re: Main sheet arrangements|I used Steve's system on MOM and it worked out well last year sailing around with just the main. One long continuous line. I used fiddle blocks with cam cleats on each end but you could just tie them off to a cleat as well. Carl sv-mom.com silascrosby wrote: > > > I looked at the photos. You can just make your existing mainsheet one > continuous line, rather than two separate purchases. No traveller. I > have done the same for years.Seems to work quite well. It is about 6:1 > purchase. Never need a winch for the mainsheet. There is enough > friction in the blocks so that under load the lee part of the purchase > can be hauled in and it pulls the boom mostly down to remove the twist > from the mainsail. I also use a vang for the main when broadreaching. > > That is , unless you really want to make traveller. > > Plans for making good, cheap, strong blocks are in Brent's book. Buy > several copies from him. They make wonderful wedding presents. > > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Space_cadet64" > wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, I've been reading along with Origami boats for a few > months now. I enjoy the sage advice and get a giggle out of the > occasional flame :-) > > > > I'm the new owner of the 'What is' the flush deck 30' modification > of the 31' brent design > > > > Here are some pictures that Alex took > http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=brent+swain+30&w=all&s=int&referer_searched=1 > > > > > I'm looking for some advice on the modification of the main sheet > system. Currently the main sheet is in two parts, there are two sets > of blocks, one set port and one set starboard, so to tack I wind up > sheeting two lines instead of letting a traveller do it's thing. > > > > Now I'm lucky, some friends of mine have supplied me with some big > honking 5/16" x 3" x 5" angle iron and a really heavy duty piece of > steel track with a 8 bearing car (designed for an overhead ladder track) > > > > My thought is to weld the track to the angle iron and use the > existing bolts/holes in the sea hood to bolt my fabricated traveller > down. I'm thinking I'll reuse the block and tackle from the current > setup to haul the traveller back and forth. > > > > The advantage of reusing the bolt holes mostly being I don't have to > rip the insulation/liner limb from limb to make clean spots for welding. > > > > My question is what sort of blocks should I be looking for to use as > the main sheet tackle? My budget is pretty shoestring, most of the > lines/halyards are in need of replacement, so I'm saving my pennies > for that. > > > > Are there any plans available to make home made blocks? I have > access to a fair bit of equipment through various friends. I was > looking at a double fiddle block on ebay, not cheap but I think a line > that's fixed on one side of the traveller then to a double fiddle > block that goes up to a triple block on the boom, the last length of > sheet ending on a single block on the other side of the traveller and > lead back into the cockpit through holes already in the doghouse seems > like a solid solution. > > > > I've never setup the main sheet for a boat this big before (designed > and built an 8' sailing dingy when I was 14) so I'm looking to bounce > the idea off those with experience. > > > > Thanks! > > > > | 20674|20665|2009-06-17 13:50:53|svseeker@ymail.com|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|Free lead would be great. I found on old gun range near Tulsa, but it had already been dug up quite a bit. One of the local gun ranges uses a dirt hill and they just sort it out by hand. Here's an untested idea for separating the lead from the dirt, rocks and copper. It would take 4 or 5 days to build and tune, but for free lead it would be worth it provided you can dig out a 1/2 a pound or better with each shovel full. http://www.submarineboat.com/images/metal_working/lead_bullet_and_rock_seperator.JPG Best of Luck Doug Jackson Tulsa, OK --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > I know where a long-defunct outdoor shooting rage is, the bullet stop is a huge earth berm and over the years probably millions of rounds were shot into it, and I've been trying to work out a good way to excavate the bullets out for their lead. > > Last week I was shoveling the dirt into a 1/4" screen and trying to shake the bullets out. It works okay but the screen has no way to tell bullets from small rocks and there are a lot of rocks. | 20675|20665|2009-06-17 14:13:31|brentswain38|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|Dirt and copper float on top of molten lead. Just scrape it off and sell the copper as scrap. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svseeker@..." wrote: > > Free lead would be great. I found on old gun range near Tulsa, but it had already been dug up quite a bit. One of the local gun ranges uses a dirt hill and they just sort it out by hand. > > Here's an untested idea for separating the lead from the dirt, rocks and copper. It would take 4 or 5 days to build and tune, but for free lead it would be worth it provided you can dig out a 1/2 a pound or better with each shovel full. > > http://www.submarineboat.com/images/metal_working/lead_bullet_and_rock_seperator.JPG > > Best of Luck > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > > > > I know where a long-defunct outdoor shooting rage is, the bullet stop is a huge earth berm and over the years probably millions of rounds were shot into it, and I've been trying to work out a good way to excavate the bullets out for their lead. > > > > Last week I was shoveling the dirt into a 1/4" screen and trying to shake the bullets out. It works okay but the screen has no way to tell bullets from small rocks and there are a lot of rocks. > | 20676|20669|2009-06-17 14:16:04|brentswain38|Re: Main sheet arrangements|My book shows you how to build the best blocks available at any price , in 20 minutes each for less then $2 each. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Space_cadet64" wrote: > > Hi everyone, I've been reading along with Origami boats for a few months now. I enjoy the sage advice and get a giggle out of the occasional flame :-) > > I'm the new owner of the 'What is' the flush deck 30' modification of the 31' brent design > > Here are some pictures that Alex took http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=brent+swain+30&w=all&s=int&referer_searched=1 > > I'm looking for some advice on the modification of the main sheet system. Currently the main sheet is in two parts, there are two sets of blocks, one set port and one set starboard, so to tack I wind up sheeting two lines instead of letting a traveller do it's thing. > > Now I'm lucky, some friends of mine have supplied me with some big honking 5/16" x 3" x 5" angle iron and a really heavy duty piece of steel track with a 8 bearing car (designed for an overhead ladder track) > > My thought is to weld the track to the angle iron and use the existing bolts/holes in the sea hood to bolt my fabricated traveller down. I'm thinking I'll reuse the block and tackle from the current setup to haul the traveller back and forth. > > The advantage of reusing the bolt holes mostly being I don't have to rip the insulation/liner limb from limb to make clean spots for welding. > > My question is what sort of blocks should I be looking for to use as the main sheet tackle? My budget is pretty shoestring, most of the lines/halyards are in need of replacement, so I'm saving my pennies for that. > > Are there any plans available to make home made blocks? I have access to a fair bit of equipment through various friends. I was looking at a double fiddle block on ebay, not cheap but I think a line that's fixed on one side of the traveller then to a double fiddle block that goes up to a triple block on the boom, the last length of sheet ending on a single block on the other side of the traveller and lead back into the cockpit through holes already in the doghouse seems like a solid solution. > > I've never setup the main sheet for a boat this big before (designed and built an 8' sailing dingy when I was 14) so I'm looking to bounce the idea off those with experience. > > Thanks! > | 20677|20669|2009-06-17 14:22:24|brentswain38|Re: Main sheet arrangements|After my first crossing of the pacific I went from a mainsheet horse to padeyes, to eliminate the noise of slamming about in a calm. A traveller would have the same problem. With a cruising boat , you have all the time in the world to vang down the boom. I tie mine to my lifeline when on a reach and let the mainsheet out. On a run I tie it to the chainplates , after letting the boom well out, then hault it down with the mainsheet, flattening the main as much as you can ever expect to. There is no need or advantage to a trsaveler on a cruising boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > I looked at the photos. You can just make your existing mainsheet one continuous line, rather than two separate purchases. No traveller. I have done the same for years.Seems to work quite well. It is about 6:1 purchase. Never need a winch for the mainsheet. There is enough friction in the blocks so that under load the lee part of the purchase can be hauled in and it pulls the boom mostly down to remove the twist from the mainsail. I also use a vang for the main when broadreaching. > > That is , unless you really want to make traveller. > > Plans for making good, cheap, strong blocks are in Brent's book. Buy several copies from him. They make wonderful wedding presents. > > Steve > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Space_cadet64" wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, I've been reading along with Origami boats for a few months now. I enjoy the sage advice and get a giggle out of the occasional flame :-) > > > > I'm the new owner of the 'What is' the flush deck 30' modification of the 31' brent design > > > > Here are some pictures that Alex took http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=brent+swain+30&w=all&s=int&referer_searched=1 > > > > I'm looking for some advice on the modification of the main sheet system. Currently the main sheet is in two parts, there are two sets of blocks, one set port and one set starboard, so to tack I wind up sheeting two lines instead of letting a traveller do it's thing. > > > > Now I'm lucky, some friends of mine have supplied me with some big honking 5/16" x 3" x 5" angle iron and a really heavy duty piece of steel track with a 8 bearing car (designed for an overhead ladder track) > > > > My thought is to weld the track to the angle iron and use the existing bolts/holes in the sea hood to bolt my fabricated traveller down. I'm thinking I'll reuse the block and tackle from the current setup to haul the traveller back and forth. > > > > The advantage of reusing the bolt holes mostly being I don't have to rip the insulation/liner limb from limb to make clean spots for welding. > > > > My question is what sort of blocks should I be looking for to use as the main sheet tackle? My budget is pretty shoestring, most of the lines/halyards are in need of replacement, so I'm saving my pennies for that. > > > > Are there any plans available to make home made blocks? I have access to a fair bit of equipment through various friends. I was looking at a double fiddle block on ebay, not cheap but I think a line that's fixed on one side of the traveller then to a double fiddle block that goes up to a triple block on the boom, the last length of sheet ending on a single block on the other side of the traveller and lead back into the cockpit through holes already in the doghouse seems like a solid solution. > > > > I've never setup the main sheet for a boat this big before (designed and built an 8' sailing dingy when I was 14) so I'm looking to bounce the idea off those with experience. > > > > Thanks! > > > | 20678|20641|2009-06-17 14:44:00|steve.clement@rocketmail.com|Re: Steve Clement|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just got an email on origami boats from Steve Clement in New Zealand which I tried to reply to, but it wouldn't go thru. Steve , if you have another email address , could you please email me again? > Brent > Hi , try steve.clement@rocketmail (dot) com Steve| 20679|20665|2009-06-17 15:57:33|khooper_fboats|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|It's really not that easy when you're dealing with bullet jackets, I would liken it to trying to get the rain out of a pile of hundreds of old tires. I may make some sort of basket and try to scoop, shake & drain it like they drain the fries at Macdonalds. Scrap yards buy copper by the pound and I do not know if they will want copper scrap that is spiked with lead. I will ask them. =^) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Dirt and copper float on top of molten lead. Just scrape it off and sell the copper as scrap. | 20680|20665|2009-06-17 17:38:56|theboilerflue|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|HAha nice setup just a little more professional than mine i was trying to make a video of my pouring but it was just me out there so didn't turn out too well and the battery died half way through so i gave it up. Sure was fun though if ti weren't so damn toxic i'd do it all the time. Nice "valve" you got there" I broke my gate valve at near the end of my pouring. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svseeker@..." wrote: > > Following in Alex's foot steps, Kay and I put together a video on collecting and melting down lead wheel weights into ingots. Let me know if you have any suggestions. We still need 13,000 pounds more. :) > > Part 1 www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ljldtu-u-s > Part 2 www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl-N-2Jgkr8 > > > Best of Luck > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > SubmarineBoat.com > | 20681|20665|2009-06-17 21:31:48|khooper_fboats|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|> http://www.submarineboat.com/images/metal_working/lead_bullet_and_rock_seperator.JPG I wish I had your ingenuity. That is really cool. It won't separate the lead from the copper but at least it would push the gravel out.| 20682|20665|2009-06-17 21:39:03|Aaron Williams|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.| Neet idea but you may want to study gold panning 101 Lead is just under the weight of gold so you would loose most of the small fragments at the screen. Aaron --- On Wed, 6/17/09, khooper_fboats wrote: From: khooper_fboats Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 5:31 PM > http://www.submarin eboat.com/ images/metal_ working/lead_ bullet_and_ rock_seperator. JPG I wish I had your ingenuity. That is really cool. It won't separate the lead from the copper but at least it would push the gravel out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20683|20665|2009-06-17 22:34:33|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|A small highbanker or tromel would work better on the mining end. A modern slude box seperates bulets and buckshot quite well. Dredge by a campground in the woods and a coffee can of lead is easy to get and some times a little gold too. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > >  Neet idea but you may want to study gold panning 101 Lead is just under the weight of gold so you would loose most of the small fragments at the screen. > Aaron > > --- On Wed, 6/17/09, khooper_fboats wrote: > > > From: khooper_fboats > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 5:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.submarin eboat.com/ images/metal_ working/lead_ bullet_and_ rock_seperator. JPG > > I wish I had your ingenuity. That is really cool. It won't separate the lead from the copper but at least it would push the gravel out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20684|20665|2009-06-17 23:46:04|svseeker@ymail.com|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|Yes, I think a sluice would get more lead, but with so many nuggets available I think going after the small fragments would only show you down. If it's anything like the 1700 pounds of gun range bullets I got; there is not much under 1/4 inch. I got my bullets off a range with a trap so there was very little dirt. Paid 8 cents a pound in 2003. Even then there is so much brass, copper, rocks, and pieces of targets that I scrapped about 50% of the original weight. With every bit of scrap you toss out of the smelter, you also toss out a little bit of lead clinging to it. So I thing separating it as best you can before it gets to the smelter is the most efficient way. Doug Jackson SubmarineBoat.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > A small highbanker or tromel would work better on the mining end. A modern slude box seperates bulets and buckshot quite well. Dredge by a campground in the woods and a coffee can of lead is easy to get and some times a little gold too. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > >  Neet idea but you may want to study gold panning 101 Lead is just under the weight of gold so you would loose most of the small fragments at the screen. > > Aaron > > | 20685|20667|2009-06-17 23:49:54|Aaron Williams|Re: Rust bullet|Jay  How often do you repaint the surface? --- On Tue, 6/16/09, Jay K. Jeffries wrote: From: Jay K. Jeffries Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Rust bullet To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 5:30 PM Richard, We use it around a reverse osmosis facility that produces water for a remote US Naval facility. Between the local salt air in the tropic humidity and the brine we produce, Rust Billet does a great job of protecting our exposed ironwork with very little surface prep when we paint. R/Jay From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of boden36 Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:26 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Rust bullet Have any of you used the product Rust Bullet and if so does it do what it says it will? Regards, Richard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20686|20665|2009-06-17 23:58:54|svseeker@ymail.com|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|The copper will likely go both ways. Some of it is flattened out, and that should go out with the rocks. But some of the stuff I got had copper bullets that were intact even after hitting the traps back wall. Those might end up with the lead. You can sell off the copper, but they will not give you a great price due to the mix of copper, brass and lead. And I cant take credit for the whole idea. I talked it over with two guys at work. One has dredged gold and the other hunted gems. Ingenuity is only other peoples good ideas put together to fit your budget. Best of Luck Doug "Lead Belly" Jackson --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > > http://www.submarineboat.com/images/metal_working/lead_bullet_and_rock_seperator.JPG > > I wish I had your ingenuity. That is really cool. It won't separate the lead from the copper but at least it would push the gravel out. > | 20687|20665|2009-06-18 01:46:14|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|The thought came to mind if a little copper is covered in lead and got poured in with the lead would it be of any problem. If it stayed dry anywhere exposed after lead cooled and shrank there would be no conductivity if something filled the void between the steel and lead to displace any condensation. Jon| 20688|20667|2009-06-18 05:54:19|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Rust bullet|Two to three years. R/Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Williams Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 11:50 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Rust bullet Jay How often do you repaint the surface? --- On Tue, 6/16/09, Jay K. Jeffries > wrote: . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20689|20665|2009-06-18 07:39:19|khooper_fboats|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|If lead were $1000 an ounce that would be a significant worry. =^) Or if I find that my pristine bullet mine has got contaminated with gold. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > >  Neet idea but you may want to study gold panning 101 Lead is just under the weight of gold so you would loose most of the small fragments at the screen. | 20690|20669|2009-06-18 08:55:40|sae140|Re: Main sheet arrangements|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Space_cadet64" wrote: > > I'm looking for some advice on the modification of the main sheet system. Currently the main sheet is in two parts, there are two sets of blocks, one set port and one set starboard, so to tack I wind up sheeting two lines instead of letting a traveller do it's thing. > If I understand you, these two sets of blocks are kept well separated ? If you keep the two sets of blocks together, then a rather neat system that can be used with or without a traveller is created, being a two-speed mainsheet system in which the sheet is not fixed anywhere, but runs around the blocks so that you end up with two sheets in your hand. Pull on the two sheets together to pull maximum length of sheet at half max. purchase. Pull on just one sheet and you pull half the length of sheet at max. purchase. I came across this system for the first time a couple of years back, and thought it was ingenious. There are some illustrations of this technique (towards the bottom of the page) at: http://www.mauriprosailing.com/Harken/Harken-Trimming-Systems/Mainsheet.htm Colin| 20691|20691|2009-06-18 10:08:11|dejongralph|SS Chainplates|I found nice bits off 7/16" ss 316 for the chain plates. They will sit on a ss bulwark. My question is: will the bottom part of the rigging rust were the galva will wear off? Experts? Thanks, Ralph| 20692|20692|2009-06-18 10:08:42|dejongralph|Gas bottles on BS 31|I would like to know were one is putting the two gas bottles on board of a BS 31. On the plans I can not find a special locker with drain over board in case of a leaking bottle. Thanks, Ralph| 20693|22|2009-06-18 10:31:53|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./285Rpic2-JN18-09.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Imagiro 315.Rendering You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./285Rpic2-JN18-09.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20694|20665|2009-06-18 10:45:16|svseeker@ymail.com|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|Jon It's really hard to get anything embedded into lead. Everything floats of the surface like a cork. Even chunks of steel will float like wood in water. I finally got chain to stick by pouring a layer of lead in the bottom of the mold and holding the first link down while the lead cooled. Then if I was careful to not completely re-melt the first layer while pouring in the rest of the lead it worked. http://www.submarineboat.com/images/metal_working/ballast_lead_2.JPG I wonder if it might be worth the trouble to have 20% of the ballast installed the keels in such a way that it could be removed? Has anyone done this? Best of Luck Doug Jackson --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > The thought came to mind if a little copper is covered in lead and got poured in with the lead would it be of any problem. If it stayed dry anywhere exposed after lead cooled and shrank there would be no conductivity if something filled the void between the steel and lead to displace any condensation. > > Jon > | 20695|20669|2009-06-18 10:51:22|Donal Philby|Re: Main sheet arrangements|-----Original Message----- >From: sae140 >If you keep the two sets of blocks together, then a rather neat system that can be used with or without a traveller is created, being a two-speed >mainsheet system in which the sheet is not fixed anywhere, but runs around the blocks so that you end up with two sheets in your hand. Pull on the >two sheets together to pull maximum length of sheet at half max. purchase. Pull on just one sheet and you pull half the length of sheet at max. >purchase. I came across this system for the first time a couple of years back, and thought it was ingenious. We used a Garhauer vang set with the line ends spliced together to form an endless loop. 3:1 and 6:1 depending on whether you pull one or both. Works well on a short traveler. I do need to put a spring or large hose chunk between the lower block and the traveler car to eliminate rattle, but it hasn't come up yet on the prioritized to-do list. donal| 20696|20665|2009-06-18 11:52:19|khooper_fboats|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|I think that is true and I wouldn't care much about cleaning the lead if I were going to pour it into a keel, but gun range lead is worth a premium to reloaders who will pay $1.50-$2.00 a pound for it or more, and buy all they can find these days for political reasons I do not want to talk about here so do not start with me. So I am going to sell the good lead which needs to be clean and buy a greater quantity of inferior lead. The keels will not know they have crappy dirty lead in them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > The thought came to mind if a little copper is covered in lead and got poured in with the lead would it be of any problem. If it stayed dry anywhere exposed after lead cooled and shrank there would be no conductivity if something filled the void between the steel and lead to displace any condensation. | 20697|20669|2009-06-18 11:54:44|Norm Moore|Re: Main sheet arrangements|Could you post some pictures of your main sheet rigging or some links to information?  I've seen two main sheets arranged with two sets of blocks and sheets, one on each side, but I'm having trouble visualizing how your setup is rigged. Norm Moore 559-645-5314 --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Donal Philby wrote: From: Donal Philby Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Main sheet arrangements To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 7:51 AM -----Original Message----- >From: sae140 >If you keep the two sets of blocks together, then a rather neat system that can be used with or without a traveller is created, being a two-speed >mainsheet system in which the sheet is not fixed anywhere, but runs around the blocks so that you end up with two sheets in your hand. Pull on the >two sheets together to pull maximum length of sheet at half max. purchase. Pull on just one sheet and you pull half the length of sheet at max. >purchase. I came across this system for the first time a couple of years back, and thought it was ingenious. We used a Garhauer vang set with the line ends spliced together to form an endless loop. 3:1 and 6:1 depending on whether you pull one or both. Works well on a short traveler. I do need to put a spring or large hose chunk between the lower block and the traveler car to eliminate rattle, but it hasn't come up yet on the prioritized to-do list. donal [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20698|20665|2009-06-18 14:01:52|brentswain38|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|Those Joshua style boats that Moitessier sailed, had removeable ballast. The result was that most of the keels rusted out from the inside. Best to seal the works. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "svseeker@..." wrote: > > Jon > > It's really hard to get anything embedded into lead. Everything floats of the surface like a cork. Even chunks of steel will float like wood in water. > > I finally got chain to stick by pouring a layer of lead in the bottom of the mold and holding the first link down while the lead cooled. Then if I was careful to not completely re-melt the first layer while pouring in the rest of the lead it worked. > http://www.submarineboat.com/images/metal_working/ballast_lead_2.JPG > > I wonder if it might be worth the trouble to have 20% of the ballast installed the keels in such a way that it could be removed? Has anyone done this? > > Best of Luck > Doug Jackson > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > > > The thought came to mind if a little copper is covered in lead and got poured in with the lead would it be of any problem. If it stayed dry anywhere exposed after lead cooled and shrank there would be no conductivity if something filled the void between the steel and lead to displace any condensation. > > > > Jon > > > | 20699|20669|2009-06-18 14:09:28|brentswain38|Re: Main sheet arrangements|I find having the sheetblocks 2 ft apart on the cabintop works best for the 31 and 36. Wider and you can't sheet it in enough. Narrower and the boom lifts too much. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Space_cadet64" wrote: > > > > > I'm looking for some advice on the modification of the main sheet system. Currently the main sheet is in two parts, there are two sets of blocks, one set port and one set starboard, so to tack I wind up sheeting two lines instead of letting a traveller do it's thing. > > > > If I understand you, these two sets of blocks are kept well separated ? > > If you keep the two sets of blocks together, then a rather neat system that can be used with or without a traveller is created, being a two-speed mainsheet system in which the sheet is not fixed anywhere, but runs around the blocks so that you end up with two sheets in your hand. Pull on the two sheets together to pull maximum length of sheet at half max. purchase. Pull on just one sheet and you pull half the length of sheet at max. purchase. I came across this system for the first time a couple of years back, and thought it was ingenious. > > There are some illustrations of this technique (towards the bottom of the page) at: http://www.mauriprosailing.com/Harken/Harken-Trimming-Systems/Mainsheet.htm > > Colin > | 20700|20691|2009-06-18 14:12:40|brentswain38|Re: SS Chainplates|I found it best to epoxy the rigging, especially the bottom 8 ft. Under the thimbles where the wire wraps around them is the worst spot for rust, as the salt runs down the shroud and accumulates there. Dipping the thimble end in epoxy will help a lot. That is why I used the poured sockets in my book there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" wrote: > > I found nice bits off 7/16" ss 316 for the chain plates. They will sit on a ss bulwark. > > My question is: will the bottom part of the rigging rust were the galva will wear off? > > Experts? > > Thanks, > Ralph > | 20701|20692|2009-06-18 14:17:13|brentswain38|Re: Gas bottles on BS 31|I put an aluminium box in the back of the cockpit for ther gas bottles. Most people build a small one , just big enough for two bottles. Then junk accumulates in front of it, so they put a slightly bigger box in. Then more junk accumulates in front of it, so they put a bigger one in. I just went for a 3ft loong one and it is full of junk that I don't want below. I put a hole in the front and put the bottles in front so, I can reach out the main hatch without going on deck, and turn them off from inside. It also makes a good cockpit seat, workbench and table. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" wrote: > > I would like to know were one is putting the two gas bottles on board of a BS 31. > > On the plans I can not find a special locker with drain over board in case of a leaking bottle. > > Thanks, > Ralph > | 20702|20702|2009-06-18 14:44:29|khooper_fboats|Aluminum Prices|Every so often I remember that the boat I really want is a big alloy catamaran, then I get quotes for aluminum, then I remember why I abandoned that idea last time I had it. Anyway here are current quotes for marine grade aluminum in 1000 lb lots in case it interests anybody: 5086 sheet 2.85/lb USD 5086 extrusions 4.50 6061 extrusions 3.10| 20703|20702|2009-06-18 15:11:09|svseeker@ymail.com|Re: Aluminum Prices|Actually the prices right now are a lot better than they were last year when we purchased our hull material. We paid almost twice the price for the hull steel compared to buying it now. So we are trying to make up some ground my purchased aluminum for our pilot house, tender, and battens. These prices are a lot better than last year. You must be in the UK if the price is $2.80 a pound. Aluminum and Stainless 800 535-9156 New Orleans, LA Aluminum - Request for Quote 11 pcs 3/16" sheet 4 ft x 20 ft 5086-H116 2311# @ $1.70/ # 3928.70 1 pcs 1/4" sheet 4 ft x 20 ft 5086-H116 276# @ $1.70/ # 469.20 1 pcs 1/8" sheet 4 ft x 20 ft 5086-H116 138# @ $1.80/ # 248.40 4 pcs 2" sch40 pipe x 20 ft 5 0 86-H32 $10.80/ FOOT 5086 ONLY 864.00 4 pcs 1/2" sch40 pipe x 20 ft 5 0 8 6-H32 $2.00/ FOOT 5086 ONLY 160.00 4 pcs 3/4" sch40 pipe x 20 ft 5 0 86-H32 $2.50/ FOOT 5086 ONLY 200.00 2 pcs 1" sch40 pipe x 20 ft 5 0 86-H32 $3.95/ FOOT 5086 ONLY 158.00 4 pcs 1/4" x 2" Flat Bar x 20 ft 5086-H111 46# @ $2.85/ # 4 WEEKS H111 ONLY 131.10 15 pcs 1/4" x 2" x 2" Angle x 25 ft 5056-H111 416# @ $2.85/ # 4 WEEKS 1185.60 16 pcs 1/4" x 2" x 3" Angle x 20 ft 5056-H111 561# @ $2.85/# 4 WEEKS 1598.85 F.O.B. New Orleans, 70112 TOTAL 8943.85 F.O.B. Tulsa, Ok. TOTAL 9930.85 Best of Luck Doug Jackson SubmarineBoat.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > Every so often I remember that the boat I really want is a big alloy catamaran, then I get quotes for aluminum, then I remember why I abandoned that idea last time I had it. Anyway here are current quotes for marine grade aluminum in 1000 lb lots in case it interests anybody: > > 5086 sheet 2.85/lb USD > 5086 extrusions 4.50 > 6061 extrusions 3.10 > | 20704|20702|2009-06-18 16:41:16|Jim Phillips|Re: Aluminum Prices|I couldn´t agree more.  Our ideal boat is also an alloy cat with LWL:BWL ratio of at least 12 and preferably higher.  What designs have you been considering?   Jim. --- On Thu, 18/6/09, khooper_fboats wrote: From: khooper_fboats Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Prices To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, 18 June, 2009, 3:44 PM Every so often I remember that the boat I really want is a big alloy catamaran, then I get quotes for aluminum, then I remember why I abandoned that idea last time I had it. Anyway here are current quotes for marine grade aluminum in 1000 lb lots in case it interests anybody: 5086 sheet 2.85/lb USD 5086 extrusions 4.50 6061 extrusions 3.10 Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20705|20669|2009-06-18 17:54:22|Donal Philby|Re: Main sheet arrangements|-----Original Message----- >From: Norm Moore >Could you post some pictures of your main sheet rigging or some links to information? Here is Garhauer page for vangs. I just used the setup as is but upside down. Ordered without rope (the normal ones for use as vangs already have rope in them). Measure length from boom attachment point to boat attachment point and multiply by six plus some extra for slack plus some for the "endless" splice. http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=50 You can also make this up with two anchor spots on house and back to boom end and down, or perhaps to boom and forward to mast then back to cabin top with two cam cleats. It takes some head scratching, but I worked it out once on paper then decided to do it differently. Brion Toss used to have a photo on his website, but doesn't. Search for and see text under Handy Billy. He refers to it as "endless mainsheet." Harken has a version: http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=HAR332&Category_Code=2SPEEDMAIN I'll see if I can take a photo that shows how it works on our boat. The secret it the two side by side cam cleats. I have seen several boats with two mainsheets. One owner loved it. The lee sheet acts as a vang. Very simple and strong. donal donal| 20706|20691|2009-06-18 18:19:46|martin demers|Re: SS Chainplates|Brent,epoxy resin or epoxy paint?Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:12:05 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: SS Chainplates I found it best to epoxy the rigging, especially the bottom 8 ft. Under the thimbles where the wire wraps around them is the worst spot for rust, as the salt runs down the shroud and accumulates there. Dipping the thimble end in epoxy will help a lot. That is why I used the poured sockets in my book there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" wrote: > > I found nice bits off 7/16" ss 316 for the chain plates. They will sit on a ss bulwark. > > My question is: will the bottom part of the rigging rust were the galva will wear off? > > Experts? > > Thanks, > Ralph > _________________________________________________________________ Attention à tous les Humains. Nous sommes vos photos. Libérez-nous de vos disques durs. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666050 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20707|20702|2009-06-18 18:35:16|Tom Mann|Re: Aluminum Prices|It is high I just bought a few sheets of 5052 H32 1/8" at $1.60 a pound, I also got some quotes for 3/16" and 1/4" plates at $1.35 a pound On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:44 AM, khooper_fboats wrote: > Every so often I remember that the boat I really want is a big alloy > catamaran, then I get quotes for aluminum, then I remember why I abandoned > that idea last time I had it. Anyway here are current quotes for marine > grade aluminum in 1000 lb lots in case it interests anybody: > > 5086 sheet 2.85/lb USD > 5086 extrusions 4.50 > 6061 extrusions 3.10 > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20708|20692|2009-06-18 18:37:35|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gas bottles on BS 31|On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 06:16:51PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I put an aluminium box in the back of the cockpit for ther gas > bottles. Most people build a small one , just big enough for two > bottles. Then junk accumulates in front of it, so they put a slightly > bigger box in. Then more junk accumulates in front of it, so they put > a bigger one in. I just went for a 3ft loong one and it is full of > junk that I don't want below. Just FYI, for those who want a pretty decent quality aluminum box that's built for the outside and can be used as a seat, AutoZone has lockable truck boxes for ~$140 and ~$190, in sizes that would work well on the average cruising boat. Hard to beat that price - that's not much more than just the materials. The welding quality on those isn't bad either. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20709|20667|2009-06-18 20:14:01|pynrc@aol.com|Re: Rust bullet|Thanks very much Jay, it is good to hear from someone who is actually using it, rather than the company sources on the net. Regards, Richard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20710|20667|2009-06-18 20:59:06|Ben Okopnik|Re: Rust bullet|On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 08:12:55PM -0400, pynrc@... wrote: > Thanks very much Jay, it is good to hear from someone who is actually using > it, rather than the company sources on the net. Regards, Richard. I was a bit too busy to reply for a week or so (had to teach a hellishly difficult class that took all of my available time), but we've used Rust Bullet here on Ulysses. Having figured out that some of our past painting falures were due to us not following the instructions properly, we read and followed everything the manufacturer suggested religiously. The stuff still peeled off in less than a year. RB appears to be some sort of a tough, plastic-like coating that sticks to de-rusted steel very well, and (assuming that you paint it within the recommended period) provides a good base for a topcoat. Where it failed, in my best estimate, is in not being able to follow the expansion and contraction of the steel during thermal cycling: we painted in the summer, and it bubbled up during the winter. When I peeled it up, the steel under it was still dry and had not rusted any further; the stuff had simply detached. Clearly, other people have had better experiences with it; the Net is full of stories from people other than the manufacturers. I just wanted to add my one note of discontent. :) I've come to believe, over time and a hell of a lot of (mostly wasted) expensive experimentation, that the simple approach - very similar to what Brent recommends - is the only one that works over the long term. Grind it or blast it, then immediately prime it with a good sticky epoxy. Then, put four or five more coats of epoxy on it, and you're done. No need for any kind of expensive goop - few (or none) of which live up to their advertising. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20711|20665|2009-06-19 09:36:02|Aaron Williams|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|Doug  Tthat makes more sence I was thinking like the the gravel pit were I used to shoot at where there were alot of dead clay pidgons. Aaron --- On Wed, 6/17/09, svseeker@... wrote: From: svseeker@... Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 7:45 PM Yes, I think a sluice would get more lead, but with so many nuggets available I think going after the small fragments would only show you down. If it's anything like the 1700 pounds of gun range bullets I got; there is not much under 1/4 inch. I got my bullets off a range with a trap so there was very little dirt. Paid 8 cents a pound in 2003. Even then there is so much brass, copper, rocks, and pieces of targets that I scrapped about 50% of the original weight. With every bit of scrap you toss out of the smelter, you also toss out a little bit of lead clinging to it. So I thing separating it as best you can before it gets to the smelter is the most efficient way. Doug Jackson SubmarineBoat. com --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > A small highbanker or tromel would work better on the mining end. A modern slude box seperates bulets and buckshot quite well. Dredge by a campground in the woods and a coffee can of lead is easy to get and some times a little gold too. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > >  Neet idea but you may want to study gold panning 101 Lead is just under the weight of gold so you would loose most of the small fragments at the screen. > > Aaron > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20712|20665|2009-06-19 11:38:51|denis buggy|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound. Doug Tthat makes more sence I was thinking like the the gravel pit were I used to shoot at where there were alot of dead clay pidgons. Aaron -AARON I HAVE A RECIPIE FOR DED CLAY PIDGONS BUT IF YOU HAVE ANY SENCE YU WONT ASK .DENIS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20713|20665|2009-06-19 12:07:48|Aaron Williams|Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound.|Thanks, I tried some once to much buck shot --- On Fri, 6/19/09, denis buggy wrote: From: denis buggy Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 7:38 AM ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Getting ballast lead at 27 cents a pound. Doug Tthat makes more sence I was thinking like the the gravel pit were I used to shoot at where there were alot of dead clay pidgons. Aaron -AARON I HAVE A RECIPIE FOR DED CLAY PIDGONS BUT IF YOU HAVE ANY SENCE YU WONT ASK .DENIS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20714|20714|2009-06-19 14:41:58|n_crevar|wifi internet|Cruising on the Vancouver Island (still on the ground) I discovered that can be found unprotected connections that can be used to access the internet. Like some McDonalds, Safeways, Best western... Usually they intercept transmission and open their web page instead, but opening another tab in the browser solved that problem - so far. My question is: Is there any simpler way, or gadget that really works, other then stop, start the laptop and check if there are any spots to connect... thanks Nash| 20715|20691|2009-06-19 15:32:11|brentswain38|Re: SS Chainplates|Epoxy tar covered with oil based, antifouling,or urethane paint to keep the UV out. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent,epoxy resin or epoxy paint?Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:12:05 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: SS Chainplates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found it best to epoxy the rigging, especially the bottom 8 ft. Under the thimbles where the wire wraps around them is the worst spot for rust, as the salt runs down the shroud and accumulates there. Dipping the thimble end in epoxy will help a lot. That is why I used the poured sockets in my book there. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" wrote: > > > > > > I found nice bits off 7/16" ss 316 for the chain plates. They will sit on a ss bulwark. > > > > > > My question is: will the bottom part of the rigging rust were the galva will wear off? > > > > > > Experts? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Ralph > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Attention à tous les Humains. Nous sommes vos photos. Libérez-nous de vos disques durs. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666050 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20716|20714|2009-06-19 18:19:27|David Frantz|Re: wifi internet|Yeah - buy an iPhone. If that is beyond budget you can get an iPod Touch and avoid the cell charges. The nice thing is that they are great gadgets in their own right. The bad thing is that WiFi performance varies widely with the device. Thus one might see a WiFi connection where another might not. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:41 PM, n_crevar wrote: > Cruising on the Vancouver Island (still on the ground) I discovered > that can be found unprotected connections that can be used to access > the internet. Like some McDonalds, Safeways, Best western... Usually > they intercept transmission and open their web page instead, but > opening another tab in the browser solved that problem - so far. > > My question is: > Is there any simpler way, or gadget that really works, other then > stop, start the laptop and check if there are any spots to connect... > > thanks > Nash > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20717|20714|2009-06-19 19:55:30|Barney|wifi internet|We have a G1 (google phone) and it is a really nice device. Similar size, more carriers coming this year (just tmobile now) and a much nicer keyboard than the iphone. Lots of free apps too. B On Fri, 2009-06-19 at 18:17 -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > Yeah - buy an iPhone. > > If that is beyond budget you can get an iPod Touch and avoid the cell > charges. > > The nice thing is that they are great gadgets in their own right. > The bad thing is that WiFi performance varies widely with the > device. Thus one might see a WiFi connection where another might not. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:41 PM, n_crevar wrote: > > > Cruising on the Vancouver Island (still on the ground) I discovered > > that can be found unprotected connections that can be used to > access > > the internet. Like some McDonalds, Safeways, Best western... > Usually > > they intercept transmission and open their web page instead, but > > opening another tab in the browser solved that problem - so far. > > > > My question is: > > Is there any simpler way, or gadget that really works, other then > > stop, start the laptop and check if there are any spots to > connect... > > > > thanks > > Nash > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > | 20718|20714|2009-06-19 20:06:17|John Fuller|Re: wifi internet|A couple of years ago I had a device about the size of a garage door opener that scanned for hotspots and let me know if they were open or secure. Unfortunately you had to read the screen each time you pressed the button to scan. GOOGLE " canary wifi" lots of info/ I used it to find places to us my Skype phone. John. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20719|20714|2009-06-19 21:26:53|David Frantz|Re: wifi internet|The G1 is an interesting device to say the least. Admittedly I have tried one my self, but the smart phone market in general is really hot! That means GPS and WiFi devices will become more and more readily available. So choice here is quickly expanding. As to the iPhone specifically I do have to say a few things about it. First; it has GPS which can be used by various apps, so it is a good energency navigation aid. In my estimation the screen is to small for a primary navigation device while at sea. Second; it has the WiFi as mentioned which would be very useful for the original posters needs. This means good support for the net via some of the best cell phone apps for E-Mail, web browsing and other network access needs. Of course it is also a cellular enabled device so you can get to that E-Mail in a lot more places. Third; it has a nice Touch screen with what I consider to be a very good keyboard arraingement. There are arguments about the keyboard but I've been happy with it. The bad is the cost of the associated contracts with the cell company. Right now though Apple has an alternative to the cell based iPhone in iPod Touch. That device eliminates the cell company contract and some of the other costs associated with iPhone. It is WiFi enabled so all those goodies come into play. Right now though there is no GPS model, so it isn't a back up navigation device. As a class these smart cell phones and network tablets are a realtively new "thing" on the market. Thus the capabilities are new and rapidly expanding. For many people they could effectively eliminate the need for laptop computers, they are certainly easier to keep with you. In any event I urge the original poster to look into some of these alternative devices. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 19, 2009, at 7:44 PM, Barney wrote: > We have a G1 (google phone) and it is a really nice device. Similar > size, more carriers coming this year (just tmobile now) and a much > nicer > keyboard than the iphone. Lots of free apps too. > > B > > On Fri, 2009-06-19 at 18:17 -0400, David Frantz wrote: >> >> >> Yeah - buy an iPhone. >> >> If that is beyond budget you can get an iPod Touch and avoid the cell >> charges. >> >> The nice thing is that they are great gadgets in their own right. >> The bad thing is that WiFi performance varies widely with the >> device. Thus one might see a WiFi connection where another might not. >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:41 PM, n_crevar wrote: >> >>> Cruising on the Vancouver Island (still on the ground) I discovered >>> that can be found unprotected connections that can be used to >> access >>> the internet. Like some McDonalds, Safeways, Best western... >> Usually >>> they intercept transmission and open their web page instead, but >>> opening another tab in the browser solved that problem - so far. >>> >>> My question is: >>> Is there any simpler way, or gadget that really works, other then >>> stop, start the laptop and check if there are any spots to >> connect... >>> >>> thanks >>> Nash >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20720|20702|2009-06-19 21:28:54|khooper_fboats|Re: Aluminum Prices|Well it looks like I was getting well and truly screwed on the aluminum prices don't it?! I think Peter Kerr's work is beautiful, these do not even look like metal boats: http://www.lizardyachts.com.au/ The 15m is what I am pricing out right now. At the metal prices they're sending me here & pmail it may even be do-able. Rough spreadsheet on metal for the amas + superstructure is about $23-25K if 5086 sheet is $1.60 and extrusions are $2.50 . Unless I'm making serious math mistakes. Every time I do math something horrible happens. You meant a LWL:BWL ratio of 1:2 right? Otherwise there is something going on I don't know about. Do you worry about alloy cracking? Any flex in a thin alloy cat and you have serious serious problems. These boats are quite literally as big as my house and 4mm plate seems thin as tissue at scales like that... MEANWHILE I am partway through a 7.5 foot model of the Tanton Origami 45 because I always end up back where I started when I do the alloy cat pipe dream thang. =^) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > > I couldn�t agree more.� Our ideal boat is also an alloy cat with LWL:BWL ratio of at least 12 and preferably higher.� What designs have you been considering? > � > Jim. | 20721|20702|2009-06-20 03:25:53|Jim Phillips|Re: Aluminum Prices|When I mentioned that ratio of 12:1, I was referring to the waterline length compared to the waterline beam of each hull of a cat, NOT the overall length and beam.  This is aimed at achieving a decent performance and still retain a semblance of comfort....not strictly possible, but this is all a compromise.   I checked out the specs on the website you mentioned for the Lizard 15 m.  It looks nice but not all the necessary info is there.  What really annoys me when analysing various cats is that the designers/vendors provide all sort of specs but do not provide what I consider amongst the most important: 1.  Wingdeck clearance. 2.  Length to beam ratio for each individual hull.   The majority of my cruising has been done on steel monos, but I have done a various deliveries on cats and our next (ideal) boat will be an alloy cat.  However, during these various deliveries, I came to realise the importance of these two factors,  They have a hell of a lot of importance in terms of performance and comfort.  With a low wingdeck clearance, not only do cups and plates go airborne when slamming to windward, I get seasick....  Yes, the last time I was chucking was on a solo delivery of a fat charter cat from the BVIs back to Saint Maarten.  In terms of performance, those FAT F...ER charter cats have a length:beam ratio (of each hull) that really reduced the ability to sail well.  But, ok, they were just deliveries, so it was a matter of running the engines, grabbing a bucket for the vomit, a bit of patience and then picking up the cash at the next port.   But with a real cat, it was a completely different situation.....   I can say I have NOT sailed a Chris White designed cat, but the logic makes a lot of sense to me.  I saw one of his Atlantic 58s recently and it really looked fantastic in terms of the overall balance between performance and comfort.  But it didn't make sense in terms of the price.  The old combination, yes, I know, pick two of three.....   I sent an email to Chris a couple of years ago and asked him about the possibility of a design change from fibreglass to alloy with the ability to pull the hull together through origami.  He replied that the additional weight was excessive and he was unwilling to do the adjustments.   What other cats have you looked at before the Lizard 15 m?         --- On Fri, 19/6/09, khooper_fboats wrote: From: khooper_fboats Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Prices To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Friday, 19 June, 2009, 10:28 PM Well it looks like I was getting well and truly screwed on the aluminum prices don't it?! I think Peter Kerr's work is beautiful, these do not even look like metal boats: http://www.lizardya chts.com. au/ The 15m is what I am pricing out right now. At the metal prices they're sending me here & pmail it may even be do-able. Rough spreadsheet on metal for the amas + superstructure is about $23-25K if 5086 sheet is $1.60 and extrusions are $2.50 . Unless I'm making serious math mistakes. Every time I do math something horrible happens. You meant a LWL:BWL ratio of 1:2 right? Otherwise there is something going on I don't know about. Do you worry about alloy cracking? Any flex in a thin alloy cat and you have serious serious problems. These boats are quite literally as big as my house and 4mm plate seems thin as tissue at scales like that... MEANWHILE I am partway through a 7.5 foot model of the Tanton Origami 45 because I always end up back where I started when I do the alloy cat pipe dream thang. =^) --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Jim Phillips wrote: > > I couldn�t agree more.� Our ideal boat is also an alloy cat with LWL:BWL ratio of at least 12 and preferably higher.� What designs have you been considering? > � > Jim. Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20722|20691|2009-06-20 03:56:04|polaris041|Re: SS Chainplates|Brent ,when you say epoxy tar, do you mean you can still buy 'tar epoxy'. It has been banned in Australia for many years. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Epoxy tar covered with oil based, antifouling,or urethane paint to keep the UV out. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > Brent,epoxy resin or epoxy paint?Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@ > > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:12:05 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: SS Chainplates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found it best to epoxy the rigging, especially the bottom 8 ft. Under the thimbles where the wire wraps around them is the worst spot for rust, as the salt runs down the shroud and accumulates there. Dipping the thimble end in epoxy will help a lot. That is why I used the poured sockets in my book there. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dejongralph" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I found nice bits off 7/16" ss 316 for the chain plates. They will sit on a ss bulwark. > > > > > > > > > > My question is: will the bottom part of the rigging rust were the galva will wear off? > > > > > > > > > > Experts? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Ralph > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Attention à tous les Humains. Nous sommes vos photos. Libérez-nous de vos disques durs. > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666050 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 20723|20723|2009-06-20 10:57:37|prairiemaidca|Non metal propane tanks|Hi All: Has anyone had any experience or heard any thing good or bad about these non metal propane tanks. A tank that doesn't rust sounds good in theory. But as in most things only time and usage will tell the true tale. Martin(Prairie Maid)| 20724|20723|2009-06-20 12:34:28|Carl Anderson|Re: Non metal propane tanks|Martin, I have the same questions about these kind of tanks. We have aluminum ones right now but they do show some signs of the aluminum oxidizing from the salt water. I have been considering getting the fiberglass ones as replacement. Carl sv-mom.com prairiemaidca wrote: > > > Hi All: Has anyone had any experience or heard any thing good or bad > about these non metal propane tanks. A tank that doesn't rust sounds > good in theory. But as in most things only time and usage will tell > the true tale. Martin(Prairie Maid) > > | 20725|20691|2009-06-20 12:59:12|polaris041|Re: SS Chainplates|Apologies. I have been advised tar epoxy is still available in Oz. "Epoxy tar is still available in OZ from Bias Boating and http://www.lacnam.com.au/downloads/tds-91.pdf and a few others a google search will turn up a few suppliers-" In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Brent ,when you say epoxy tar, do you mean you can still buy 'tar epoxy'. It has been banned in Australia for many years. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Epoxy tar covered with oil based, antifouling,or urethane paint to keep the UV out. > > Brent | 20726|20723|2009-06-20 13:29:01|David Frantz|Re: Non metal propane tanks|Funny you should ask as I've looked at such tanks myself. This for use around the house. Even though initially for grounded use I look to buy hardware that will be usable on that boat I hope to have in the future. In fact a lot of my puchases lately have had that dual use mentality. Unfortunately I skipped the purchase due to pressing matters. The things I'd be worried about are impact resistance and UV resistance. Fiberglass doesn't take impacts well thus these tanks often are wrapped in a protective skeleton. My take is that the tanks would be OK if in a suitable protective cabinet. A cabinet free of other hard objects to damage the tanks when things get tossed about. In the end I'm not convinced of value and frankly I'm not even excited about Propane on a boat. That probably doesn't help you much David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 20, 2009, at 10:57 AM, prairiemaidca wrote: > Hi All: Has anyone had any experience or heard any thing good or > bad about these non metal propane tanks. A tank that doesn't rust > sounds good in theory. But as in most things only time and usage > will tell the true tale. Martin(Prairie Maid) > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20727|20723|2009-06-20 18:37:39|Donal Philby|Re: Non metal propane tanks|-----Original Message----- >From: Carl Anderson >I have been considering getting the fiberglass ones as replacement. > If where you are going to use them is built specifically for the aluminum ones, they may not fit. The differences are subtle, but could be important. I know, and had to find a new home for ones that appeared (and were spec'd similarily) right, but wouldn't work without major surgery in all directions. The specifications seemed to be based on the inner tank and did not include the surround. donal| 20728|20723|2009-06-21 13:36:12|boatwayupnorth|Re: Non metal propane tanks|We have used a fibreglass propane tank for our barbecue for two years now. It is stored outside on our sun terrace in an partially enclosed cupboard and has seen some abuse. Temperature here in Northern-Norway varies from + 20 to -15 C. Can't see that it has been damaged in any way. I actually prefer it to the metal tanks we have used in the past - much easier to carry and the rust is a non-issue, of course. It is stored out of the sun, though. Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi All: Has anyone had any experience or heard any thing good or bad about these non metal propane tanks. A tank that doesn't rust sounds good in theory. But as in most things only time and usage will tell the true tale. Martin(Prairie Maid) > | 20729|20669|2009-06-22 18:42:00|Matthew Dalton|Re: Main sheet arrangements|Using a closed loop with the current blocks would certainly accomplish my goal (ease of handling.) Currently the blocks are attached slightly aft of mid-boom, and the blocks are shackled to plates welded on the deck near the gunnel. From what Brent said, on top of the cabin the blocks should be about 2' apart, currently my blocks are about 8'+ apart, the distance from the boom to the deck is about 2.5' so I think there's too much play to have the boom sit right. Clearly experimentation is needed. I noticed you have a picture of my boat tied up in Nanaimo on http://sv-mom.com/different%20boats.html you call her "What if?" but her name is "What is" as in "What is: a silly name for a boat!" I'm planning on painting the name on with a piece of white board after the name. It's more jovial then my dad's old sailboat "wits end" Tony (who built and I assume named her) must have a neat sense of humour :D Thanks for your input on the rig, I need to get off me arse and take some up close shots of the rig so you can see what I'm working with. Matthew On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 10:13 -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > I used Steve's system on MOM and it worked out well last year sailing > around with just the main. > One long continuous line. > I used fiddle blocks with cam cleats on each end but you could just > tie > them off to a cleat as well. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > silascrosby wrote: > > > > > > I looked at the photos. You can just make your existing mainsheet > one > > continuous line, rather than two separate purchases. No traveller. > I > > have done the same for years.Seems to work quite well. It is about > 6:1 > > purchase. Never need a winch for the mainsheet. There is enough > > friction in the blocks so that under load the lee part of the > purchase > > can be hauled in and it pulls the boom mostly down to remove the > twist > > from the mainsail. I also use a vang for the main when > broadreaching. > > > > That is , unless you really want to make traveller. > > > > Plans for making good, cheap, strong blocks are in Brent's book. > Buy > > several copies from him. They make wonderful wedding presents. > > > > Steve > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Space_cadet64" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi everyone, I've been reading along with Origami boats for a few > > months now. I enjoy the sage advice and get a giggle out of the > > occasional flame :-) > > > > > > I'm the new owner of the 'What is' the flush deck 30' > modification > > of the 31' brent design > > > > > > Here are some pictures that Alex took > > http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=brent+swain > +30&w=all&s=int&referer_searched=1 > > +30&w=all&s=int&referer_searched=1> > > > > > > I'm looking for some advice on the modification of the main sheet > > system. Currently the main sheet is in two parts, there are two > sets > > of blocks, one set port and one set starboard, so to tack I wind up > > sheeting two lines instead of letting a traveller do it's thing. > > > > > > Now I'm lucky, some friends of mine have supplied me with some > big > > honking 5/16" x 3" x 5" angle iron and a really heavy duty piece of > > steel track with a 8 bearing car (designed for an overhead ladder > track) > > > > > > My thought is to weld the track to the angle iron and use the > > existing bolts/holes in the sea hood to bolt my fabricated > traveller > > down. I'm thinking I'll reuse the block and tackle from the current > > setup to haul the traveller back and forth. > > > > > > The advantage of reusing the bolt holes mostly being I don't have > to > > rip the insulation/liner limb from limb to make clean spots for > welding. > > > > > > My question is what sort of blocks should I be looking for to use > as > > the main sheet tackle? My budget is pretty shoestring, most of the > > lines/halyards are in need of replacement, so I'm saving my pennies > > for that. > > > > > > Are there any plans available to make home made blocks? I have > > access to a fair bit of equipment through various friends. I was > > looking at a double fiddle block on ebay, not cheap but I think a > line > > that's fixed on one side of the traveller then to a double fiddle > > block that goes up to a triple block on the boom, the last length > of > > sheet ending on a single block on the other side of the traveller > and > > lead back into the cockpit through holes already in the doghouse > seems > > like a solid solution. > > > > > > I've never setup the main sheet for a boat this big before > (designed > > and built an 8' sailing dingy when I was 14) so I'm looking to > bounce > > the idea off those with experience. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > | 20730|20730|2009-06-23 11:03:46|SHANE ROTHWELL|Main Sheet Arrangements|Matthew, When you re-name her don't forget to have a virgin pee into the bilge whilst the cerimony is going on. Offical toasting and acutal re-nameing can be done on deck for disgression and privacy of the child. Horrible bad Joss otherwiswe! Shane Posted by: "Matthew Dalton" yahoo-groups@... Space_cadet64 Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:42 pm (PDT) Using a closed loop with the current blocks would certainly accomplish my goal (ease of handling.) Currently the blocks are attached slightly aft of mid-boom, and the blocks are shackled to plates welded on the deck near the gunnel. From what Brent said, on top of the cabin the blocks should be about 2' apart, currently my blocks are about 8'+ apart, the distance from the boom to the deck is about 2.5' so I think there's too much play to have the boom sit right. Clearly experimentation is needed. I noticed you have a picture of my boat tied up in Nanaimo on http://sv-mom. com/different% 20boats.html you call her "What if?" but her name is "What is" as in "What is: a silly name for a boat!" I'm planning on painting the name on with a piece of white board after the name. It's more jovial then my dad's old sailboat "wits end" Tony (who built and I assume named her) must have a neat sense of humour :D Thanks for your input on the rig, I need to get off me arse and take some up close shots of the rig so you can see what I'm working with. Matthew __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.| 20731|20669|2009-06-23 12:24:36|silascrosby|Re: Main sheet arrangements|Matthew, The mainsheet blocks are about 4' apart on my boat. Yours should be fine at 8'. You might need to use a vang at times to bring the boom down a bit. You have nearly mid-boom sheeting which , I think puts a bigger load on the gooseneck, especially in an arrested jibe. I have broken a cast gooseneck in this situation on another boat. However ,end-boom sheeting often puts the mainsheet and its hardware right in the way of the bridgedeck and companionway. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Dalton wrote: > > Using a closed loop with the current blocks would certainly accomplish > my goal (ease of handling.) > > Currently the blocks are attached slightly aft of mid-boom, and the blocks are > shackled to plates welded on the deck near the gunnel. From what Brent > said, on top of the cabin the blocks should be about 2' apart, currently > my blocks are about 8'+ apart, the distance from the boom to the deck is > about 2.5' so I think there's too much play to have the boom sit right. > > Clearly experimentation is needed. > > I noticed you have a picture of my boat tied up in Nanaimo on > http://sv-mom.com/different%20boats.html you call her "What if?" but her > name is "What is" as in "What is: a silly name for a boat!" I'm planning > on painting the name on with a piece of white board after the name. > > It's more jovial then my dad's old sailboat "wits end" > > Tony (who built and I assume named her) must have a neat sense of > humour :D > > Thanks for your input on the rig, I need to get off me arse and take > some up close shots of the rig so you can see what I'm working with. > > Matthew > > On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 10:13 -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > I used Steve's system on MOM and it worked out well last year sailing > > around with just the main. > > One long continuous line. > > I used fiddle blocks with cam cleats on each end but you could just > > tie > > them off to a cleat as well. > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > silascrosby wrote: > > > > > > > > > I looked at the photos. You can just make your existing mainsheet > > one > > > continuous line, rather than two separate purchases. No traveller. > > I > > > have done the same for years.Seems to work quite well. It is about > > 6:1 > > > purchase. Never need a winch for the mainsheet. There is enough > > > friction in the blocks so that under load the lee part of the > > purchase > > > can be hauled in and it pulls the boom mostly down to remove the > > twist > > > from the mainsail. I also use a vang for the main when > > broadreaching. > > > > > > That is , unless you really want to make traveller. > > > > > > Plans for making good, cheap, strong blocks are in Brent's book. > > Buy > > > several copies from him. They make wonderful wedding presents. > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "Space_cadet64" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, I've been reading along with Origami boats for a few > > > months now. I enjoy the sage advice and get a giggle out of the > > > occasional flame :-) > > > > > > > > I'm the new owner of the 'What is' the flush deck 30' > > modification > > > of the 31' brent design > > > > > > > > Here are some pictures that Alex took > > > http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=brent+swain > > +30&w=all&s=int&referer_searched=1 > > > > +30&w=all&s=int&referer_searched=1> > > > > > > > > I'm looking for some advice on the modification of the main sheet > > > system. Currently the main sheet is in two parts, there are two > > sets > > > of blocks, one set port and one set starboard, so to tack I wind up > > > sheeting two lines instead of letting a traveller do it's thing. > > > > > > > > Now I'm lucky, some friends of mine have supplied me with some > > big > > > honking 5/16" x 3" x 5" angle iron and a really heavy duty piece of > > > steel track with a 8 bearing car (designed for an overhead ladder > > track) > > > > > > > > My thought is to weld the track to the angle iron and use the > > > existing bolts/holes in the sea hood to bolt my fabricated > > traveller > > > down. I'm thinking I'll reuse the block and tackle from the current > > > setup to haul the traveller back and forth. > > > > > > > > The advantage of reusing the bolt holes mostly being I don't have > > to > > > rip the insulation/liner limb from limb to make clean spots for > > welding. > > > > > > > > My question is what sort of blocks should I be looking for to use > > as > > > the main sheet tackle? My budget is pretty shoestring, most of the > > > lines/halyards are in need of replacement, so I'm saving my pennies > > > for that. > > > > > > > > Are there any plans available to make home made blocks? I have > > > access to a fair bit of equipment through various friends. I was > > > looking at a double fiddle block on ebay, not cheap but I think a > > line > > > that's fixed on one side of the traveller then to a double fiddle > > > block that goes up to a triple block on the boom, the last length > > of > > > sheet ending on a single block on the other side of the traveller > > and > > > lead back into the cockpit through holes already in the doghouse > > seems > > > like a solid solution. > > > > > > > > I've never setup the main sheet for a boat this big before > > (designed > > > and built an 8' sailing dingy when I was 14) so I'm looking to > > bounce > > > the idea off those with experience. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 20732|20730|2009-06-23 13:23:42|Matthew Dalton|Re: Main Sheet Arrangements|Haha, I'd never heard of a virgin peeing in the bilge before, I grew up on a wood boat, where the task was much more arduous, hammering each bung three times while saying the boats name. I think I'm going to keep the name, it's pretty fun coming up with the ... after "what is"... Also with the pee in the bilge, won't I need to zink the metals in my bilge? That extra acid play havoc with lose bits of metal ;-) Matthew On Tue, 2009-06-23 at 08:02 -0700, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Matthew, > > When you re-name her don't forget to have a virgin pee into the bilge > whilst the cerimony is going on. Offical toasting and acutal > re-nameing can be done on deck for disgression and privacy of the > child. Horrible bad Joss otherwiswe! > > Shane > > Posted by: "Matthew Dalton" yahoo-groups@... Space_cadet64 > Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:42 pm (PDT) > > Using a closed loop with the current blocks would certainly accomplish > my goal (ease of handling.) > > Currently the blocks are attached slightly aft of mid-boom, and the > blocks are > shackled to plates welded on the deck near the gunnel. From what Brent > said, on top of the cabin the blocks should be about 2' apart, > currently > my blocks are about 8'+ apart, the distance from the boom to the deck > is > about 2.5' so I think there's too much play to have the boom sit > right. > > Clearly experimentation is needed. > > I noticed you have a picture of my boat tied up in Nanaimo on > http://sv-mom. com/different% 20boats.html you call her "What if?" but > her > name is "What is" as in "What is: a silly name for a boat!" I'm > planning > on painting the name on with a piece of white board after the name. > > It's more jovial then my dad's old sailboat "wits end" > > Tony (who built and I assume named her) must have a neat sense of > humour :D > > Thanks for your input on the rig, I need to get off me arse and take > some up close shots of the rig so you can see what I'm working with. > > Matthew > > __________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark > your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. > > > > | 20733|20733|2009-06-26 13:53:45|astonsteeltrawlers|Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA|Hey guys. It was metntioned to me on boatdesign.net that some of the members on this board may be able to direct me to some steel suppliers in the area for an upcoming project of mine. I don't mean to intrude on your board but would appreciate if anyone had any ideas. I need pretty large plates. The longest around 26' x 6.5'. The project stipulates 4, 5 and 6 mm, but .18 inches and 1/4 inches are good. The grade is A-36. Thank you for your time. Michael| 20734|20733|2009-06-26 14:36:14|Ronnie Foster|Re: Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA|Are you in the Houston, Texas area? If so contact: David Gary at MacSteel 713-633-7400 Let Me Know, Ronnie Foster A.S.T. Systems, Inc. 18570 Van Road Houston, Texas 77049 Phone: (281)456-0082 Fax: (281) 456-0083 Cell: (713) 829-4601 E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of astonsteeltrawlers Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 12:53 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA Hey guys. It was metntioned to me on boatdesign.net that some of the members on this board may be able to direct me to some steel suppliers in the area for an upcoming project of mine. I don't mean to intrude on your board but would appreciate if anyone had any ideas. I need pretty large plates. The longest around 26' x 6.5'. The project stipulates 4, 5 and 6 mm, but .18 inches and 1/4 inches are good. The grade is A-36. Thank you for your time. Michael [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20735|20733|2009-06-26 14:47:16|astonsteeltrawlers|Re: Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA|Ronnie: Thanks for the reply. I am actually going to be doing the project in Seattle, but would not rule our Houston as a source for material. Thanks for the lead. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronnie Foster" wrote: > > Are you in the Houston, Texas area? > > > > If so contact: David Gary at MacSteel 713-633-7400 > > > > Let Me Know, > > Ronnie Foster > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > 18570 Van Road > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of astonsteeltrawlers > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 12:53 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA > > > > > > > > > Hey guys. It was metntioned to me on boatdesign.net that some of the members > on this board may be able to direct me to some steel suppliers in the area > for an upcoming project of mine. I don't mean to intrude on your board but > would appreciate if anyone had any ideas. I need pretty large plates. The > longest around 26' x 6.5'. The project stipulates 4, 5 and 6 mm, but .18 > inches and 1/4 inches are good. The grade is A-36. Thank you for your time. > > Michael > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20736|20736|2009-06-26 17:01:25|adam|all wire halyards?|Hi all: Been looking at collecting the pieces for the running rigging. I know it has been discussed about the rope versus rope-to-wire spliced halyards, but does anybody have any experience with all wire halyards? I am thinking that if I go to al all-wire setup, could use small trailer winches (similar to Brent's manual windlass design) for halyard winches? 4 on the cabin top would give my my 3 halyards, plus one spare. Cheers Adam| 20737|20736|2009-06-26 17:20:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: all wire halyards?|On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 09:00:55PM -0000, adam wrote: > Hi all: > > Been looking at collecting the pieces for the running rigging. I know it has been discussed about the rope versus rope-to-wire spliced halyards, but does anybody have any experience with all wire halyards? > I am thinking that if I go to al all-wire setup, could use small trailer winches (similar to Brent's manual windlass design) for halyard winches? 4 on the cabin top would give my my 3 halyards, plus one spare. Searching the Web for "death winches" produces a bunch of 'random word dictionaries' (a tool that idiots try to use to gain rank for their websites) and - amusingly enough - my own post on the subject. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/18754 As you've probably gathered from the nickname, they're generally best avoided on a boat. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20738|20605|2009-06-26 17:56:31|mllmag|Re: Quotation for steel|Hello, Sorry for the late reply, but this is my busiest time of the year, and now I am trying to keep with the replies. They didn't specify, I guess for just what I needed to build the boat (the materials list Brent publishes and which I sent to them, for both the BS26 and BS31, in order to get two quotes. They gave the same prices). So is it really good? Because somebody said it wasn't. The real problem is that I would have to weld a lot of plates to have the sizes needed since they only provide for 3m by 1.5m. Martin| 20739|20605|2009-06-26 18:00:04|mllmag|Re: Quotation for steel|Hello, Sorry for the late reply. Thanks. That sounds like a good idea I can use, since there is a fishing port nearby. I can ask and see what replies I get, since the yellow pages and web searching didn't help me much... Thanks, Martin -| 20740|20605|2009-06-26 18:04:05|mllmag|Re: Quotation for steel|Hello, Sorry for the late reply. I asked about wheelabraded preprimed mild steel that Brent recommends. They didn't even understand me. They said they only had usual mild steel for machine fabrication. In the quote they specified it was S-235-JR quality. Is that good? Thank you, Marti| 20741|20546|2009-06-26 18:25:22|mllmag|Re: Choice of welder|Hello, Sorry for the late reply. I hesitate to answer since I see some people got annoyed for the thread...But just a short comment after your post, and what I could find asking around, and what I've done so far just for completion. So please ignore if someone feels annoyed by it...: a)mig is out for me: Brent and other people don't recommend it and the consensus seems to be it is mainly for shop and fabrication welding when hourly salary is important (no chipping slag etc...)and conditions are controlled and usually good. Flux-core should be usable even with rust dirtiness etc...But welding with that is not that easy (the slag hides the weld puddle I read in a uk forum which seems the best)..Penetration is tricky ,and in some welding forum I read that porosity (specially with gas) can be a problem that is not always apparent by the aspect of the weld. Regulation of the machine seems an obsession... In the end I bough the cheapest AC welder (besides the 150 amp inverter I have I can't really get good T joint welds with it) I could find in Europe on ebay for 89 Eu, but that some users told me it was great for the money (but for what kind of jobs?). I guess that qualifies as the cheap buzzbox that Brent touts so much...Because Lincoln,Miller AC buzzboxes aren't that cheap at all: 280-300 Eu plus shipping to europe (plus they are unusable here since they are 60 Hz and here it is 50 Hz). Here in europe they aren't available, at least in a Lincoln distributor...And finding what it is good and what it is bad is really very difficult. A supposedly good local brand? Asked me about 500 Eu for a 200 amp AC machine...NOt really cheap. I don't know where are those cheap buzzboxes, except those made in China which I finally bought (actually from a german store, but I guess it is from China. Pointless to ask anything to the store, they don't really know much about what they sell I am afraid. Long to explain) Oops...longer than I thought SO I leave it at that. Thanks Martin| 20742|20546|2009-06-26 18:29:02|mllmag|Re: Choice of welder|Hello, Thanks! That experience was useful to share,it is argumented, and it helps me to avoid the same mistake!. Best wishes, Martin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I used a lincon wire feed welder for most of the mild steel work that had to be done when i got my boat. So i did the outside seams on the hull and a bunch of the deck and inside with gas shielded wire (i'm inside) I used some flux core as well. After hauling the damn welder all around the boat along with the power cord and gas hose and stinger (which is always way to short) and ground clamp I really wish that i had just gotten a nice buzzbox instead. The wire feed was fast, except i had to stop and clean or change tips (and buy tips they are not tha cheap), Go get more gas (BUYBUYBUY) or change wire or change the wire housing, the spools that push the wire through the housing will eventually wear out so one must replace them. All of these things stop work on the boat until they're fixed. The gas isn't cheap flux core is usually twice the price of solid core wire. Always adjusting the feed or the current levels . I ran stainless through it a bit which worked pretty nice except that it spit slag everywhere so i had little stainless balls all over the boat, a pretty good amount of metal wasted in slag along, a gut at the welding shop told me the way to stop this is to cover the area around the work with anti-spatter goo - could I waste more time? Of course one can weld aluminum with those things but you'll need a sperate pound gun cause you're not going to be able to work alu. wire all the way through the housing, best get one you can hook up to the arc welder. The nicest thing about mig i found was tacking things in place - works so well for that cause you can rest the stinger right on the work, helmet down and press the weld button. Other than tacking stuff I have nothing good to say about those things I think you'd be better off (and learn to weld better) with a stick welder and they're way cheaper and I imagine it's easier to find sticks anywhere in the world than it is to find all those (brand) specific parts metioned above. stick with stick. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > The cost of a good wire feed machine far out weights the benifites of a low cost stick welding machine. People say wire is easy to learn but dont be fooled. There is an art to it and it does take a lot more practice to get it consistantly right. Yes you can weld faster but one can also make bigger mistakes. Look back into the past messages before you realy commit yourself. > > Aaron > > > > --- On Wed, 6/10/09, sae140 wrote: > > > > > > From: sae140 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 8:14 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > So using flux core in MIG welding gives the same strenght as welding with a shielding gas. > > > > Before getting too enthusiastic about fluxed 'MIG' wire, you might like to do your homework regarding the relative costs involved. > > > > I've just done a quick 'Google' and couldn't easily find anyone selling full-sized reels of gas-less wire, but one site is offering Midi (8") sized spools of normal wire for £15, whereas the same sized spool (4.54Kg) of gas-less wire is £52. > > For comparison, a 5Kg box of 6013 rods will set you back around £10-12. > > > > Bear in mind that you'll be getting through quite a few boxes or reels while building a boat. > > > > 'best, Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 20743|20743|2009-06-26 18:37:39|mllmag|Size of comealongs?|Hello, I am looking for comealongs to build a BS31 or BS26, and they keep asking me what size I need. I can't seem to find that info on Brent's book nor in the group. Does anybody know what size and how many they must be? They are rated by the Kgs (or Pounds) that they can lift. I refer always to chain comealongs. Here there are available in 250 Kg (for about 87 Eu), 500 Kg (around 100 Eu), 1 Ton and 1.5 Ton (really big comealong)(multiply by two to have an approx in pounds,or 0.45 for more accuracy). I have to enquire in renting shops. Thank you, Martin| 20744|20743|2009-06-26 20:18:48|khooper_fboats|Re: Size of comealongs?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: "They are rated by the Kgs (or Pounds) that they can lift. I refer always to chain comealongs. Here there are available in 250 Kg (for about 87 Eu), 500 Kg (around 100 Eu), 1 Ton and 1.5 Ton" Wow. 87 Euros, that is over $122 USD it says here on the Google. Wow. Harbor Freight has 4000 lb cable comealongs for $14. You'd have to pay freight but I'm guessing you might have a little money left over even so. Maybe even get two. =^) Ken | 20745|20733|2009-06-26 20:59:45|Aaron Williams|Re: Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA|Check with Seaport Steel in Seattle. --- On Fri, 6/26/09, astonsteeltrawlers wrote: From: astonsteeltrawlers Subject: [origamiboats] Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 9:52 AM Hey guys. It was metntioned to me on boatdesign.net that some of the members on this board may be able to direct me to some steel suppliers in the area for an upcoming project of mine. I don't mean to intrude on your board but would appreciate if anyone had any ideas. I need pretty large plates. The longest around 26' x 6.5'. The project stipulates 4, 5 and 6 mm, but .18 inches and 1/4 inches are good. The grade is A-36. Thank you for your time. Michael [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20746|20736|2009-06-27 10:43:15|adam|Re: all wire halyards?|That's not the type of winch I was referring to Ben. I was thinking of using the type you see on a boat trailer for hauling the boat onto the trailer. Does not use friction, captures the wire onto a drum, and uses a toothed detent wheel to lock the drum in place. No "set screw drag" to stop the drum, and the wire tail is fixed to the drum intself. Like I said, similar to Brent's windlass setup. Cheers Adam --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 09:00:55PM -0000, adam wrote: > > Hi all: > > > > Been looking at collecting the pieces for the running rigging. I know it has been discussed about the rope versus rope-to-wire spliced halyards, but does anybody have any experience with all wire halyards? > > I am thinking that if I go to al all-wire setup, could use small trailer winches (similar to Brent's manual windlass design) for halyard winches? 4 on the cabin top would give my my 3 halyards, plus one spare. > > Searching the Web for "death winches" produces a bunch of 'random word > dictionaries' (a tool that idiots try to use to gain rank for their > websites) and - amusingly enough - my own post on the subject. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/18754 > > As you've probably gathered from the nickname, they're generally best > avoided on a boat. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20747|20733|2009-06-27 18:59:19|astonsteeltrawlers|Re: Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA|Hey.... I checked out Seaport Steel's website. Looks like a really good lead. Will call on Monday. Hope they are OK dealing with the little guy. Thanks again. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Check with Seaport Steel in Seattle. > > --- On Fri, 6/26/09, astonsteeltrawlers wrote: > > > From: astonsteeltrawlers > Subject: [origamiboats] Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 9:52 AM > > > > > > > > > Hey guys. It was metntioned to me on boatdesign.net that some of the members on this board may be able to direct me to some steel suppliers in the area for an upcoming project of mine. I don't mean to intrude on your board but would appreciate if anyone had any ideas. I need pretty large plates. The longest around 26' x 6.5'. The project stipulates 4, 5 and 6 mm, but .18 inches and 1/4 inches are good. The grade is A-36. Thank you for your time. > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20748|20748|2009-06-28 08:10:29|sae140|Foam supplier - UK|For anyone in the UK or western Europe - I came across this site today: http://www.expandingfoamkits.co.uk The foam isn't fire rated, but apart from that it looks interesting ... Colin| 20749|20733|2009-06-28 17:21:56|brentswain38|Re: Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA|Gary Steel in Portland Oregon was a good supplier, if they are still around.They shipped it wheelabraded and primed with Devoe green primer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "astonsteeltrawlers" wrote: > > Hey.... I checked out Seaport Steel's website. Looks like a really good lead. Will call on Monday. Hope they are OK dealing with the little guy. Thanks again. > > Michael > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Check with Seaport Steel in Seattle. > > > > --- On Fri, 6/26/09, astonsteeltrawlers wrote: > > > > > > From: astonsteeltrawlers > > Subject: [origamiboats] Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 9:52 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey guys. It was metntioned to me on boatdesign.net that some of the members on this board may be able to direct me to some steel suppliers in the area for an upcoming project of mine. I don't mean to intrude on your board but would appreciate if anyone had any ideas. I need pretty large plates. The longest around 26' x 6.5'. The project stipulates 4, 5 and 6 mm, but .18 inches and 1/4 inches are good. The grade is A-36. Thank you for your time. > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 20750|20743|2009-06-28 17:29:58|brentswain38|Re: Size of comealongs?|I find that a couple of the cheap direct drive wire rope comealongs, preferably with a block on the hook end to give you a double purchase, are useful for most pulling, but to pull the hull together it is worthwhile to rent a 1.5 ton chain comealong for the one day it takes to pull the hull together, after it has all been cut out ,and the stringers and bulwarks welded on.After that the wire ones are all you need. They will be trashed by the end of the job, but will have justified their cheap cost. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello, > I am looking for comealongs to build a BS31 or BS26, and they keep asking me what size I need. I can't seem to find that info on Brent's book nor in the group. Does anybody know what size and how many they must be? They are rated by the Kgs (or Pounds) that they can lift. I refer always to chain comealongs. Here there are available in 250 Kg (for about 87 Eu), 500 Kg (around 100 Eu), 1 Ton and 1.5 Ton (really big comealong)(multiply by two to have an approx in pounds,or 0.45 for more accuracy). I have to enquire in renting shops. > Thank you, > Martin > | 20751|20669|2009-06-28 17:34:22|brentswain38|Re: Main sheet arrangements|With blocks 2 ft apart you won't need any vang closehauled.Any further out and you wont be able to stop the boom from lifting, or get her sheeted in enough with the sheet position on your boom. Tried that ,didn't work.So I moved them closer together. That worked. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Matthew, > The mainsheet blocks are about 4' apart on my boat. Yours should be fine at 8'. You might need to use a vang at times to bring the boom down a bit. > You have nearly mid-boom sheeting which , I think puts a bigger load on the gooseneck, especially in an arrested jibe. I have broken a cast gooseneck in this situation on another boat. > However ,end-boom sheeting often puts the mainsheet and its hardware right in the way of the bridgedeck and companionway. > Steve > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Dalton wrote: > > > > Using a closed loop with the current blocks would certainly accomplish > > my goal (ease of handling.) > > > > Currently the blocks are attached slightly aft of mid-boom, and the blocks are > > shackled to plates welded on the deck near the gunnel. From what Brent > > said, on top of the cabin the blocks should be about 2' apart, currently > > my blocks are about 8'+ apart, the distance from the boom to the deck is > > about 2.5' so I think there's too much play to have the boom sit right. > > > > Clearly experimentation is needed. > > > > I noticed you have a picture of my boat tied up in Nanaimo on > > http://sv-mom.com/different%20boats.html you call her "What if?" but her > > name is "What is" as in "What is: a silly name for a boat!" I'm planning > > on painting the name on with a piece of white board after the name. > > > > It's more jovial then my dad's old sailboat "wits end" > > > > Tony (who built and I assume named her) must have a neat sense of > > humour :D > > > > Thanks for your input on the rig, I need to get off me arse and take > > some up close shots of the rig so you can see what I'm working with. > > > > Matthew > > > > On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 10:13 -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > > > > I used Steve's system on MOM and it worked out well last year sailing > > > around with just the main. > > > One long continuous line. > > > I used fiddle blocks with cam cleats on each end but you could just > > > tie > > > them off to a cleat as well. > > > > > > Carl > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > silascrosby wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I looked at the photos. You can just make your existing mainsheet > > > one > > > > continuous line, rather than two separate purchases. No traveller. > > > I > > > > have done the same for years.Seems to work quite well. It is about > > > 6:1 > > > > purchase. Never need a winch for the mainsheet. There is enough > > > > friction in the blocks so that under load the lee part of the > > > purchase > > > > can be hauled in and it pulls the boom mostly down to remove the > > > twist > > > > from the mainsail. I also use a vang for the main when > > > broadreaching. > > > > > > > > That is , unless you really want to make traveller. > > > > > > > > Plans for making good, cheap, strong blocks are in Brent's book. > > > Buy > > > > several copies from him. They make wonderful wedding presents. > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "Space_cadet64" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, I've been reading along with Origami boats for a few > > > > months now. I enjoy the sage advice and get a giggle out of the > > > > occasional flame :-) > > > > > > > > > > I'm the new owner of the 'What is' the flush deck 30' > > > modification > > > > of the 31' brent design > > > > > > > > > > Here are some pictures that Alex took > > > > http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=brent+swain > > > +30&w=all&s=int&referer_searched=1 > > > > > > +30&w=all&s=int&referer_searched=1> > > > > > > > > > > I'm looking for some advice on the modification of the main sheet > > > > system. Currently the main sheet is in two parts, there are two > > > sets > > > > of blocks, one set port and one set starboard, so to tack I wind up > > > > sheeting two lines instead of letting a traveller do it's thing. > > > > > > > > > > Now I'm lucky, some friends of mine have supplied me with some > > > big > > > > honking 5/16" x 3" x 5" angle iron and a really heavy duty piece of > > > > steel track with a 8 bearing car (designed for an overhead ladder > > > track) > > > > > > > > > > My thought is to weld the track to the angle iron and use the > > > > existing bolts/holes in the sea hood to bolt my fabricated > > > traveller > > > > down. I'm thinking I'll reuse the block and tackle from the current > > > > setup to haul the traveller back and forth. > > > > > > > > > > The advantage of reusing the bolt holes mostly being I don't have > > > to > > > > rip the insulation/liner limb from limb to make clean spots for > > > welding. > > > > > > > > > > My question is what sort of blocks should I be looking for to use > > > as > > > > the main sheet tackle? My budget is pretty shoestring, most of the > > > > lines/halyards are in need of replacement, so I'm saving my pennies > > > > for that. > > > > > > > > > > Are there any plans available to make home made blocks? I have > > > > access to a fair bit of equipment through various friends. I was > > > > looking at a double fiddle block on ebay, not cheap but I think a > > > line > > > > that's fixed on one side of the traveller then to a double fiddle > > > > block that goes up to a triple block on the boom, the last length > > > of > > > > sheet ending on a single block on the other side of the traveller > > > and > > > > lead back into the cockpit through holes already in the doghouse > > > seems > > > > like a solid solution. > > > > > > > > > > I've never setup the main sheet for a boat this big before > > > (designed > > > > and built an 8' sailing dingy when I was 14) so I'm looking to > > > bounce > > > > the idea off those with experience. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 20752|20736|2009-06-28 17:39:49|brentswain38|Re: all wire halyards?|The handle flailing around is a serious danger when dropping anything.They also make hoisting the mainsail very slow. A bottom action sheet winch type could be welded up from stainless easily enough. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "adam" wrote: > > Hi all: > > Been looking at collecting the pieces for the running rigging. I know it has been discussed about the rope versus rope-to-wire spliced halyards, but does anybody have any experience with all wire halyards? > I am thinking that if I go to al all-wire setup, could use small trailer winches (similar to Brent's manual windlass design) for halyard winches? 4 on the cabin top would give my my 3 halyards, plus one spare. > > Cheers > Adam > | 20753|20743|2009-06-28 18:30:40|edward_stoneuk|Re: Size of comealongs?|Hi Martin, For pulling together our 36 I bought a couple of the cheap wire comealongs probably the same as Brent uses. They are fine. I had to repair them quite often though mainly due to excessive loads; and once accidently arced my welding electrode through the wire of one when it was under tension. Things fell apart after that. Fot the heavier loads, although they were cumbersome we used a couple of secondhand chain hoists, one of 1 tonne and one 1/2 tonne. To use them horizontally we took off the keep guide of the endless (manual pull) chain and flipped the pull chain into a figure of eight so that the tension part of the chain supported the returning part into the drive gypsy. The is a picture of one being used in the photos folder 36 Fly. Regards, Ted| 20754|20546|2009-06-28 20:07:11|bufalowbob1939|Re: Choice of welder|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: I have welded for 15 years. Mostly mild steel and stainless. I have found that if you purchase the best used maching you can afford you will be happy in the long run. You can sell it when you are done and the cost will be small if you purched it right to start with. As for mig, tig or stick it is up to you. I have seen the vido The art of Steel boat building. The welding was ok to tack two things toghter but above the water line were things are judged for cosmetics there is nothing like a nice mig weld. Tig requires more experance but on stainless it looks great and no gringing is required. In the end try for the best and hope you get half way there. The cost of a good welder is small in relationship to what you will spend on the rest of the boat. > Hello, > Sorry for the late reply. I hesitate to answer since I see some people got annoyed for the thread...But just a short comment after your post, and what I could find asking around, and what I've done so far just for completion. So please ignore if someone feels annoyed by it...: > a)mig is out for me: Brent and other people don't recommend it and the consensus seems to be it is mainly for shop and fabrication welding when hourly salary is important (no chipping slag etc...)and conditions are controlled and usually good. Flux-core should be usable even with rust dirtiness etc...But welding with that is not that easy (the slag hides the weld puddle I read in a uk forum which seems the best)..Penetration is tricky ,and in some welding forum I read that porosity (specially with gas) can be a problem that is not always apparent by the aspect of the weld. Regulation of the machine seems an obsession... > In the end I bough the cheapest AC welder (besides the 150 amp inverter I have I can't really get good T joint welds with it) I could find in Europe on ebay for 89 Eu, but that some users told me it was great for the money (but for what kind of jobs?). I guess that qualifies as the cheap buzzbox that Brent touts so much...Because Lincoln,Miller AC buzzboxes aren't that cheap at all: 280-300 Eu plus shipping to europe (plus they are unusable here since they are 60 Hz and here it is 50 Hz). Here in europe they aren't available, at least in a Lincoln distributor...And finding what it is good and what it is bad is really very difficult. A supposedly good local brand? Asked me about 500 Eu for a 200 amp AC machine...NOt really cheap. I don't know where are those cheap buzzboxes, except those made in China which I finally bought (actually from a german store, but I guess it is from China. Pointless to ask anything to the store, they don't really know much about what they sell I am afraid. Long to explain) > Oops...longer than I thought SO I leave it at that. > Thanks > Martin > | 20755|20755|2009-06-29 00:49:18|Shane Duncan|Re: rubber pin Swain31|for the 2 pins on the rubber I'm thinking of using 70mm long 16mm ss rod that will fit into a 20mm ss rod with a 16mm hole machined through it   does this sound about right /  tight too light?     Also have just completed putting on my aluminium cabin top to the deck using 17 tubes of sikiaflex 252, all went ok looks pretty good will post some pics soon   cheers shane Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20756|20546|2009-06-29 02:54:49|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Choice of welder|Seconded, re: good welder, mig, and cost. Has anyone tried a cheap TIG welder ? I have never tried TIG, and would like to learn. I have a good Mig, small inverter, and do so-so to quite decent welds on mild steel and stainless. I am willing to spend on a 3-500€ machine, but cannot justify 1000€ plus without a solid project, welding job, or prospect in mind. I would like to do some "fine welding" in outside visible seams, things like external rails (box covers), safety rails, grab rails, etc. mostly in stainless. 1-4 mm thick, some 6 -10 mm thick cnc machine parts under 14 inches in overall size. All recommendation gratefully accepted, including if the cheap ones are no good. My chicom inverter has performed well, for 6 years, for a 200€ small box (100 amps iirc). Max 3.5 mm electrodes. Very happy, great purchase. bufalowbob1939 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mllmag" wrote: > > I have welded for 15 years. Mostly mild steel and stainless. I have > found that if you purchase the best used maching you can afford you > will be happy in the long run. You can sell it when you are done and > the cost will be small if you purched it right to start with. As for > mig, tig or stick it is up to you. I have seen the vido The art of > Steel boat building. The welding was ok to tack two things toghter but > above the water line were things are judged for cosmetics there is > nothing like a nice mig weld. Tig requires more experance but on > stainless it looks great and no gringing is required. In the end try > for the best and hope you get half way there. The cost of a good > welder is small in relationship to what you will spend on the rest of > the boat. > > > | 20757|20733|2009-06-29 10:48:58|astonsteeltrawlers|Re: Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA|Brent: Thanks for the lead on the Portland Steel company. I tried to find them, but perhaps as you thought...they may be out of business as I had no luck. Michael| 20758|20736|2009-06-29 11:23:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: all wire halyards?|On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 02:43:06PM -0000, adam wrote: > That's not the type of winch I was referring to Ben. > > I was thinking of using the type you see on a boat trailer for hauling > the boat onto the trailer. Does not use friction, captures the wire > onto a drum, and uses a toothed detent wheel to lock the drum in > place. No "set screw drag" to stop the drum, and the wire tail is > fixed to the drum intself. > > Like I said, similar to Brent's windlass setup. Sorry, I didn't even consider that you might be talking about those, since they are so completely unsuited for the purpose. The absolute "no-go" factor is they would make it impossible to raise or drop the sail quickly: this is critical when you're sailing single-handed, or trying to synchronize it with the boat coming into the wind while someone else steering, or trying to get up a storm sail in a blow. In addition, because you'll have no way to feel whether a sail is jamming or not, you'll be far more likely to rip it if it does. As I recall, they are also very crude and of poor construction, hard to release with any degree of control under pressure, and will rust out in minimal time. In my opinion, they don't belong on a boat for any reason. Brent's windlass, by contrast, is perfectly fine for its application because you never need to either drop or retrieve the anchor at high speed; it's all about how much power you can apply and how much line you can store. It's also designed and constructed with much better quality. The fact that a mechanism works well for an anchor line does not mean that it's well suited for a halyard. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20759|20755|2009-06-30 15:14:20|brentswain38|Re: rubber pin Swain31|16mm is a bit too light for the pin. I'd go 25mm minimum for the 31 and 32mm minimum for the 36 Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > > > for the 2 pins on the rubber I'm thinking of using 70mm long 16mm ss rod > that will fit into a 20mm ss rod with a 16mm hole machined through it >   > does this sound about right /  tight too light? >   >   > Also have just completed putting on my aluminium cabin top to the deck > using 17 tubes of sikiaflex 252, all went ok looks pretty good > will post some pics soon >   > cheers > shane > > > > > > Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. > Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20760|20546|2009-07-01 01:12:34|Bob Wills|Re: Choice of welder|If you wish to tig you will need a good deal of practice, good eyes, and a steady hand. Mig is easy with good out come within 20 hours of experance.  There is not a cheep TIg welder as the weld is use a hi freq start and that required electronics. --- On Mon, 6/29/09, gcode fi (hanermo) wrote: From: gcode fi (hanermo) Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 6:54 AM Seconded, re: good welder, mig, and cost. Has anyone tried a cheap TIG welder ? I have never tried TIG, and would like to learn. I have a good Mig, small inverter, and do so-so to quite decent welds on mild steel and stainless. I am willing to spend on a 3-500€ machine, but cannot justify 1000€ plus without a solid project, welding job, or prospect in mind. I would like to do some "fine welding" in outside visible seams, things like external rails (box covers), safety rails, grab rails, etc. mostly in stainless. 1-4 mm thick, some 6 -10 mm thick cnc machine parts under 14 inches in overall size. All recommendation gratefully accepted, including if the cheap ones are no good. My chicom inverter has performed well, for 6 years, for a 200€ small box (100 amps iirc). Max 3.5 mm electrodes. Very happy, great purchase. bufalowbob1939 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mllmag" wrote: > > I have welded for 15 years. Mostly mild steel and stainless. I have > found that if you purchase the best used maching you can afford you > will be happy in the long run. You can sell it when you are done and > the cost will be small if you purched it right to start with. As for > mig, tig or stick it is up to you. I have seen the vido The art of > Steel boat building. The welding was ok to tack two things toghter but > above the water line were things are judged for cosmetics there is > nothing like a nice mig weld. Tig requires more experance but on > stainless it looks great and no gringing is required. In the end try > for the best and hope you get half way there. The cost of a good > welder is small in relationship to what you will spend on the rest of > the boat. > > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20761|20761|2009-07-01 03:12:15|lachica31|Controlling the trim tab|Brent specifies a rod system for inside steering via the rudder trim tab. I have no argument with that as it is undoubtedly the simplest, strongest and cheapest way to do it. However on La Chica, where inside steering via the trim tab was not under consideration when I built her 20 years ago, Brent's nice simple system is proving difficult to fit in. So I am considering useing a Telefex Morse push-pull cable, the same sort that is used in single lever engine controls. These cables are available in a range of sizes and can carry loads from 30lbs up to 500lbs. My thinking is to use a cable rated for 60lbs as the trim tab loads are not high. I would put a flexible jacket on the outer end to help keep the water out of the cable. Question, has anyone done this? If so has it worked well? What problems if any? Can anyone think of reasons as to why this may not be a good idea? If it's not a good idea, what am I missing? And why? Regards, Paul Thompson| 20762|20761|2009-07-01 09:12:39|Aaron Williams|Re: Controlling the trim tab|Paul I wonder if you get a setup just like you were hooking up an outboard on a power boat. They have the heavy push pull rod on the end witch is mounted on the engine, Teleflex even make a hydraulic unit. www.Go2marine.com carries several types that would give you some more ideas. Aaron --- On Tue, 6/30/09, lachica31 wrote: From: lachica31 Subject: [origamiboats] Controlling the trim tab To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 11:12 PM Brent specifies a rod system for inside steering via the rudder trim tab. I have no argument with that as it is undoubtedly the simplest, strongest and cheapest way to do it. However on La Chica, where inside steering via the trim tab was not under consideration when I built her 20 years ago, Brent's nice simple system is proving difficult to fit in. So I am considering useing a Telefex Morse push-pull cable, the same sort that is used in single lever engine controls. These cables are available in a range of sizes and can carry loads from 30lbs up to 500lbs. My thinking is to use a cable rated for 60lbs as the trim tab loads are not high. I would put a flexible jacket on the outer end to help keep the water out of the cable. Question, has anyone done this? If so has it worked well? What problems if any? Can anyone think of reasons as to why this may not be a good idea? If it's not a good idea, what am I missing? And why? Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20763|20733|2009-07-02 08:16:36|Tom|Re: Looking for Steel Supplier in North West USA|Another steel supplier in the Portland, Seattle area is PDM. I talked to their Sales rep at my shop and she said no problem. Cost? Have to get a quote. contact leslie Koontz at lkoontz@... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "astonsteeltrawlers" wrote: > > Hey guys. It was metntioned to me on boatdesign.net that some of the members on this board may be able to direct me to some steel suppliers in the area for an upcoming project of mine. I don't mean to intrude on your board but would appreciate if anyone had any ideas. I need pretty large plates. The longest around 26' x 6.5'. The project stipulates 4, 5 and 6 mm, but .18 inches and 1/4 inches are good. The grade is A-36. Thank you for your time. > > > Michael > | 20764|20761|2009-07-02 12:18:29|silascrosby|Re: Controlling the trim tab|I started with a used Morse cable but changed over to a length of 1 x 7 ss rigging wire inside a flexible plastic conduit.The length is about 15'. It worked fine. I actually don't use it much now that I have a small tiller pilot on the trim-tab. The Morse cable is probably not sensitive enough to be able to use the tillerpilot attached to the Morse. The rod linkage is more sensitive and the tillerpilot can go inside the boat attached to it. Better weather protection for the pilot. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > Brent specifies a rod system for inside steering via the rudder trim tab. I have no argument with that as it is undoubtedly the simplest, strongest and cheapest way to do it. > > However on La Chica, where inside steering via the trim tab was not under consideration when I built her 20 years ago, Brent's nice simple system is proving difficult to fit in. So I am considering useing a Telefex Morse push-pull cable, the same sort that is used in single lever engine controls. > > These cables are available in a range of sizes and can carry loads from 30lbs up to 500lbs. My thinking is to use a cable rated for 60lbs as the trim tab loads are not high. I would put a flexible jacket on the outer end to help keep the water out of the cable. > > Question, has anyone done this? If so has it worked well? What problems if any? Can anyone think of reasons as to why this may not be a good idea? If it's not a good idea, what am I missing? And why? > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 20765|20761|2009-07-02 13:29:37|Carl Anderson|Re: Controlling the trim tab|I use the rod & pipe linkage & I LOVE IT!!! Carl sv-mom.com silascrosby wrote: > > > I started with a used Morse cable but changed over to a length of 1 x > 7 ss rigging wire inside a flexible plastic conduit.The length is > about 15'. It worked fine. > I actually don't use it much now that I have a small tiller pilot on > the trim-tab. The Morse cable is probably not sensitive enough to be > able to use the tillerpilot attached to the Morse. The rod linkage is > more sensitive and the tillerpilot can go inside the boat attached to > it. Better weather protection for the pilot. > Steve > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "lachica31" wrote: > > > > Brent specifies a rod system for inside steering via the rudder trim > tab. I have no argument with that as it is undoubtedly the simplest, > strongest and cheapest way to do it. > > > > However on La Chica, where inside steering via the trim tab was not > under consideration when I built her 20 years ago, Brent's nice simple > system is proving difficult to fit in. So I am considering useing a > Telefex Morse push-pull cable, the same sort that is used in single > lever engine controls. > > > > These cables are available in a range of sizes and can carry loads > from 30lbs up to 500lbs. My thinking is to use a cable rated for 60lbs > as the trim tab loads are not high. I would put a flexible jacket on > the outer end to help keep the water out of the cable. > > > > Question, has anyone done this? If so has it worked well? What > problems if any? Can anyone think of reasons as to why this may not be > a good idea? If it's not a good idea, what am I missing? And why? > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > | 20766|22|2009-07-02 17:41:15|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./285Rpic1-JN18-09.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Imagiro 315. Rendering You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./285Rpic1-JN18-09.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20767|20546|2009-07-02 22:13:35|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Choice of welder|If your cheap welder is DC then all you need is a torch and an Argon bottle and regulator for stainless. You can scratch start on stainless, and the hi-frequency is only used for starting on stainless anyway. Tig welding aluminum needs the hi-frequency because it breaks up the non-conductive oxidation layer on the aluminum. However if you use a really big tungsten and straight polarity you can weld thin aluminum with DC. The tungsten gets a big ball on the end because the current is flowing from the workpiece to the tungsten, putting much more heat in the tungsten. But the direction of current flow also lifts off the oxidation. Tig is my favorite kind of welding. You have so much CONTROL you can do damn near anything! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "gcode fi (hanermo)" To: Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 2:54 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Choice of welder > Seconded, re: good welder, mig, and cost. > > Has anyone tried a cheap TIG welder ? > I have never tried TIG, and would like to learn. I have a good Mig, > small inverter, and do so-so to quite decent welds on mild steel and > stainless. > > I am willing to spend on a 3-500€ machine, but cannot justify 1000€ plus > without a solid project, welding job, or prospect in mind. > > I would like to do some "fine welding" in outside visible seams, things > like external rails (box covers), safety rails, grab rails, etc. mostly > in stainless. > 1-4 mm thick, some 6 -10 mm thick cnc machine parts under 14 inches in > overall size. > All recommendation gratefully accepted, including if the cheap ones are > no good. > > My chicom inverter has performed well, for 6 years, for a 200€ small box > (100 amps iirc). Max 3.5 mm electrodes. Very happy, great purchase. > > bufalowbob1939 wrote: >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> , "mllmag" wrote: >> >> I have welded for 15 years. Mostly mild steel and stainless. I have >> found that if you purchase the best used maching you can afford you >> will be happy in the long run. You can sell it when you are done and >> the cost will be small if you purched it right to start with. As for >> mig, tig or stick it is up to you. I have seen the vido The art of >> Steel boat building. The welding was ok to tack two things toghter but >> above the water line were things are judged for cosmetics there is >> nothing like a nice mig weld. Tig requires more experance but on >> stainless it looks great and no gringing is required. In the end try >> for the best and hope you get half way there. The cost of a good >> welder is small in relationship to what you will spend on the rest of >> the boat. >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 20768|20761|2009-07-03 00:27:06|brian vezina|Re: Controlling the trim tab|Paul:   On my BS36  'Tagish', I  have been using a stainless morse cable type 33 from Stevston marine.  It goes from the trim tab under my marine board cockpit seat and through the pilot house wall and inside.  It seems to work fine.  I have recently put a small autopilot directly to the cable inside the pilot house and it is mounted fore/aft position and it  works ok.   I dont think you need to worry about heavy loads like 60 lbs, it seems to take very little effort to steer of the trim tab.  --- On Wed, 7/1/09, lachica31 wrote: From: lachica31 Subject: [origamiboats] Controlling the trim tab To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 12:12 AM Brent specifies a rod system for inside steering via the rudder trim tab. I have no argument with that as it is undoubtedly the simplest, strongest and cheapest way to do it. However on La Chica, where inside steering via the trim tab was not under consideration when I built her 20 years ago, Brent's nice simple system is proving difficult to fit in. So I am considering useing a Telefex Morse push-pull cable, the same sort that is used in single lever engine controls. These cables are available in a range of sizes and can carry loads from 30lbs up to 500lbs. My thinking is to use a cable rated for 60lbs as the trim tab loads are not high. I would put a flexible jacket on the outer end to help keep the water out of the cable. Question, has anyone done this? If so has it worked well? What problems if any? Can anyone think of reasons as to why this may not be a good idea? If it's not a good idea, what am I missing? And why? Regards, Paul Thompson __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20769|20769|2009-07-03 08:32:06|tateshell|unsubscribe|Is there some secret to unsubscribing? I've tried repeatedly to unsubscribe with no success.| 20770|20769|2009-07-03 09:52:53|Gordon Schnell|Re: unsubscribe|To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com tateshell wrote: > > > Is there some secret to unsubscribing? I've tried repeatedly to > unsubscribe with no success. > > | 20771|20769|2009-07-03 13:37:32|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: unsubscribe|On the group pages on the net just above the surch bar is a tab for "My Groups" inside you can edit and unsubscribe. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tateshell" wrote: > > Is there some secret to unsubscribing? I've tried repeatedly to unsubscribe with no success. > | 20772|20761|2009-07-03 17:04:03|brentswain38|Re: Controlling the trim tab|Morse cables all tend to corrode up eventually,especially the outboard , exposed end, altho Steves rigging wire solution is a huge improvement. The pipe arrangement is good for centuries, with no maintenance, then you can let the next owner worry about it. Morse cable has a much shorter throw. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I use the rod & pipe linkage & I LOVE IT!!! > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > > silascrosby wrote: > > > > > > I started with a used Morse cable but changed over to a length of 1 x > > 7 ss rigging wire inside a flexible plastic conduit.The length is > > about 15'. It worked fine. > > I actually don't use it much now that I have a small tiller pilot on > > the trim-tab. The Morse cable is probably not sensitive enough to be > > able to use the tillerpilot attached to the Morse. The rod linkage is > > more sensitive and the tillerpilot can go inside the boat attached to > > it. Better weather protection for the pilot. > > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "lachica31" wrote: > > > > > > Brent specifies a rod system for inside steering via the rudder trim > > tab. I have no argument with that as it is undoubtedly the simplest, > > strongest and cheapest way to do it. > > > > > > However on La Chica, where inside steering via the trim tab was not > > under consideration when I built her 20 years ago, Brent's nice simple > > system is proving difficult to fit in. So I am considering useing a > > Telefex Morse push-pull cable, the same sort that is used in single > > lever engine controls. > > > > > > These cables are available in a range of sizes and can carry loads > > from 30lbs up to 500lbs. My thinking is to use a cable rated for 60lbs > > as the trim tab loads are not high. I would put a flexible jacket on > > the outer end to help keep the water out of the cable. > > > > > > Question, has anyone done this? If so has it worked well? What > > problems if any? Can anyone think of reasons as to why this may not be > > a good idea? If it's not a good idea, what am I missing? And why? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > | 20773|20761|2009-07-03 17:10:11|brentswain38|Re: Controlling the trim tab|I've never seen a tiller pilot or autohelm used at sea, which didn't eventually fillup with water in rough weather. Best get them belowdecks.One solution is to extend the ram all the way out, then duct tape plastic bags over it, so the end taped to the ram acts like a bellows. Clear plastic over the buttons lets you see what you are doing. Outside ones also tend to get stomped on when the action gets lively. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > I started with a used Morse cable but changed over to a length of 1 x 7 ss rigging wire inside a flexible plastic conduit.The length is about 15'. It worked fine. > I actually don't use it much now that I have a small tiller pilot on the trim-tab. The Morse cable is probably not sensitive enough to be able to use the tillerpilot attached to the Morse. The rod linkage is more sensitive and the tillerpilot can go inside the boat attached to it. Better weather protection for the pilot. > Steve > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > Brent specifies a rod system for inside steering via the rudder trim tab. I have no argument with that as it is undoubtedly the simplest, strongest and cheapest way to do it. > > > > However on La Chica, where inside steering via the trim tab was not under consideration when I built her 20 years ago, Brent's nice simple system is proving difficult to fit in. So I am considering useing a Telefex Morse push-pull cable, the same sort that is used in single lever engine controls. > > > > These cables are available in a range of sizes and can carry loads from 30lbs up to 500lbs. My thinking is to use a cable rated for 60lbs as the trim tab loads are not high. I would put a flexible jacket on the outer end to help keep the water out of the cable. > > > > Question, has anyone done this? If so has it worked well? What problems if any? Can anyone think of reasons as to why this may not be a good idea? If it's not a good idea, what am I missing? And why? > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > | 20774|20774|2009-07-03 18:53:10|theboilerflue|fuel tank gasket?|Any suggestions as to what to use as gasket material I have at my disposal right now half a tube of Sikaflex and half a tube of the silicone RV sealant which I used for the windows. The silicone would make it easier to open the tank some time in future without having to pry it off but do diesel and silicon react badly to each other?| 20775|20774|2009-07-03 22:57:06|mark hamill|Re: fuel tank gasket?|Go to your autoparts store/mechanic and ask them-don't screw around with fuel on a guess| 20776|20774|2009-07-04 05:57:09|sae140|Re: fuel tank gasket?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Any suggestions as to what to use as gasket material I have at my disposal right now half a tube of Sikaflex and half a tube of the silicone RV sealant which I used for the windows. The silicone would make it easier to open the tank some time in future without having to pry it off but do diesel and silicon react badly to each other? > Suggest you use a one-piece (if possible) nitrile rubber gasket: Ebay (co.uk) 260431883419 is the type of stuff to look for. Alternatively, one of the professional-quality 'instant gasket' products designed to be used with oils and petroleum, such as Hylomar Blue Instant Gasket Silicone Sealer. Colin| 20777|20761|2009-07-04 09:22:55|SHANE ROTHWELL|Controlling the trim tab|The Chinese have a good trick for keeping water out of electronic key pads. they use it more to keep remotes clean etc but it worked really well on the tv remote on the boat. Use saran wrap/shrink wrap. also works on cell phones & you can use the key pad & they also float (learned that one the hard way...) Don't know how it would work on a tiller pilot with the ram tho, but might work for a gps on deck or short term until you get it set up below decks. Re: Controlling the trim tab Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Fri Jul 3, 2009 2:10 pm (PDT) I've never seen a tiller pilot or autohelm used at sea, which didn't eventually fillup with water in rough weather. Best get them belowdecks.One solution is to extend the ram all the way out, then duct tape plastic bags over it, so the end taped to the ram acts like a bellows. Clear plastic over the buttons lets you see what you are doing. Outside ones also tend to get stomped on when the action gets lively. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > I started with a used Morse cable but changed over to a length of 1 x 7 ss rigging wire inside a flexible plastic conduit.The length is about 15'. It worked fine. > I actually don't use it much now that I have a small tiller pilot on the trim-tab. The Morse cable is probably not sensitive enough to be able to use the tillerpilot attached to the Morse. The rod linkage is more sensitive and the tillerpilot can go inside the boat attached to it. Better weather protection for the pilot. > Steve > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > Brent specifies a rod system for inside steering via the rudder trim tab. I have no argument with that as it is undoubtedly the simplest, strongest and cheapest way to do it. > > > > However on La Chica, where inside steering via the trim tab was not under consideration when I built her 20 years ago, Brent's nice simple system is proving difficult to fit in. So I am considering useing a Telefex Morse push-pull cable, the same sort that is used in single lever engine controls. > > > > These cables are available in a range of sizes and can carry loads from 30lbs up to 500lbs. My thinking is to use a cable rated for 60lbs as the trim tab loads are not high. I would put a flexible jacket on the outer end to help keep the water out of the cable. > > > > Question, has anyone done this? If so has it worked well? What problems if any? Can anyone think of reasons as to why this may not be a good idea? If it's not a good idea, what am I missing? And why? > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com | 20778|20778|2009-07-04 09:32:38|SHANE ROTHWELL|Fuel Tank Gasket|Nitrile Rubber works well. You can fabricate a gasket out of cut strips with a razor knife and glue the stuff with krazy glue. but be careful not to over doo the krazy glue as it can form a hard lump...all you want it to do is to weld, yes, literally weld, just like pvc & abs joints it melts the host material & it welds together, but if you put on too much it just forms a lump & krazy/super glue on its own cristalizes over time (it apparently never stops reacting, sort of like concrete) but if you go with just enuf to do the job, the joint remains pretty flexable. I did gaskets that were about 500mm x 500m for the fuel tanks on Metanme' & had no problems. I went with 3mm sheet. Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue Fri Jul 3, 2009 3:53 pm (PDT) Any suggestions as to what to use as gasket material I have at my disposal right now half a tube of Sikaflex and half a tube of the silicone RV sealant which I used for the windows. The silicone would make it easier to open the tank some time in future without having to pry it off but do diesel and silicon react badly to each other? __________________________________________________________________ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 20779|20774|2009-07-04 09:52:43|building_bighouse|Re: fuel tank gasket?|"For use within a diesel engine the gasket material must be able to withstand the temperatures generated from the engine but most importantly, must be able to withstand the continual contact with diesel fuel." "In general silicone RTV sealants are prone to attack from mineral oils. To overcome this problem silicone RTV's can be formulated using fluorosilicone polymers, however the dramatic increase in costs usually prohibits their commercial use." http://www.acc-silicones.com/products/adhesives/dieselresistantrtvsiliconesealant.ashx The source is a manufacturer of a diesel-resistant silicone product so should be read skeptically I suppose... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Any suggestions as to what to use as gasket material I have at my disposal right now half a tube of Sikaflex and half a tube of the silicone RV sealant which I used for the windows. The silicone would make it easier to open the tank some time in future without having to pry it off but do diesel and silicon react badly to each other? > | 20780|20635|2009-07-04 10:34:08|Ronnie Foster|Re: choice of welder|Price is defiantly an issue, Miller has Migs available at very inexpensive prices. With the correct wire for the material you are welding on at the time your welding speed will at least quadruple. Time saved is money saved, may not be for you, but it certainly has been for me. If you enlist the services of a good welding supply they can turn to wire that does things we have never dreamed of being able to do in the past. Technology in the Mig wire world is changing almost as fast as the computer world. Every month or two, my welding supply guy is bringing me a different roll of wire to test. The only material thickness I weld on are 14ga., 12ga.,10ga.,3/16” and ¼”, but the with the new wire, any thickness is doable. Just my thoughts, their worth exactly what they cost, Thorhooked From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Frantz Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 7:23 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder I know the difference between constant current and constant voltage when it comes to welders. I'm not sure how that got into the discussion. The problem as I see it is that a mig welder is an expensive investment that can't do the whole job of putting the boat together. That even if you invest in a so called professional mig welder. Atleast not with the ease that you would have with a stick. You might convince me that a multi process welder is a good idea but that is so only if the buyer has intentions beyound building the ships structure and can afford the equipment. I'm not against MIG welding as a process, the fact is I've welded up a lot of stuff with that process. I'm more concerned about the minimal investment required to get the job done, I think many here are missing that component in this thread. Even used hardware generally has a wide spread between the cost of a buzz box and a suitable MIG welder. Yes I know there are exceptions but around here suitable used equipment still gets a good price. I guess it depends upon how flush for money you are but big projects like these would be less sensitive to failure if capital outlay for tools where minimized. Especially in my case where just buying raw materials for a shell are a problem. Everyone has his or hers priorities, all I'm trying to get across is that you don't absolutely need an expensive welder and a MIG might not be able to do the whole ship. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 11, 2009, at 8:26 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > David, > The current we are talking about is in the range of 120 to 180 amps, > a good > comfortable buzz box range. The older mig welders were transformer > welders, > just like buzz boxes. A buzz box transformer is designed to droop the > voltage as the current rises, thus keeping the current constant. A > mig > welder transformer is more like an ordinary transformer, with just a > little > droop. Hence the term constant voltage welder. When you strike an > arc with > a stick welder the voltage drops way off then comes back up as the > arc is > established. With a mig welder the voltage only droops a little at > start, > and the current shoots way up until the wire burns back. As the arc > length > increases the current drops because the voltage stays nearly the same. > > The only reason the cheap mig welders don't work so well is that > they try to > cheat on the physics of welding, which just can't be done. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Frantz" > > To: > > Cc: > > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:02 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > > >> The one problem here is that you need a welder capable of those >> currents. Most aren't. Atleast not in the same range as a buzz >> box. >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Jun 11, 2009, at 7:49 PM, "Gary H. Lucas" > >> wrote: >> >>> Will, >>> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you >>> can with >>> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the >>> business. >>> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off >>> inside >>> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a >>> cord we >>> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So we >>> thought >>> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. >>> >>> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull >>> about 28 >>> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the >>> ground >>> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground >>> wire, that's >>> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would >>> burn that >>> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire >>> current! We >>> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire >>> cord was >>> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? >>> >>> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire >>> is not >>> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a >>> really short >>> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little >>> resistance. >>> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat >>> generated is >>> very small, and won't burn off the wire. >>> >>> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 volt >>> short >>> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That >>> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would >>> reliably >>> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an >>> undamaged >>> cord. >>> >>> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of >>> the weld >>> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, >>> a hell >>> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps >>> before it >>> melts into the arc. >>> >>> Gary H. Lucas >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "will jones" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM >>> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder >>> >>> >>>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig >>>>> welding >>>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material >>>>> with the >>>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" >>>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. >>>> Current >>>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. >>>> Last I >>>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You >>>> are sort >>>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the >>>> center >>>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed >>>> more >>>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point >>>> between >>>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the >>>> 6500K >>>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach >>>> the >>>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel >>>> in this >>>> type of welding. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20781|20774|2009-07-04 13:02:57|Carl Volkwein|Re: fuel tank gasket?|How about good ol' cork gaskets? carlvolkwein@... --- On Sat, 7/4/09, building_bighouse wrote: From: building_bighouse Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fuel tank gasket? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 9:51 AM "For use within a diesel engine the gasket material must be able to withstand the temperatures generated from the engine but most importantly, must be able to withstand the continual contact with diesel fuel." "In general silicone RTV sealants are prone to attack from mineral oils. To overcome this problem silicone RTV's can be formulated using fluorosilicone polymers, however the dramatic increase in costs usually prohibits their commercial use." http://www.acc- silicones. com/products/ adhesives/ dieselresistantr tvsiliconesealan t.ashx The source is a manufacturer of a diesel-resistant silicone product so should be read skeptically I suppose... --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Any suggestions as to what to use as gasket material I have at my disposal right now half a tube of Sikaflex and half a tube of the silicone RV sealant which I used for the windows. The silicone would make it easier to open the tank some time in future without having to pry it off but do diesel and silicon react badly to each other? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20782|20649|2009-07-05 09:52:12|morgan33t_ior|choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MATH I|I have been a way and now I am back and no I didn't fall of the earth no matter how some may wish it. :) Don't sigh too much, really this thread is not all that bad. People are not getting nasty, which is an excellent aspect of a discussion such as this. I see the original poster. See we didn't forget you. The original poster has decided on a welder in spite of us. If you learn the technical aspects of welding, you can weld with whatever you have. My goodness, even a robot can weld. I did have to clear up one response, really, only one: Gary, I did do the math correctly, really I did. It is not area that is 600x times difference, it is the resistance. So 0.52/0.0008 is 650 for copper. If we use 10X greater resistance for steel alloy then it is 5.2/0.008 which is still 650 times greater. You can have the same Amps, but not the same current density for differing wire diameters. This higher resistance combined with current squared gives you the 6000Kelvin you need at the weld to fuse the thin wire and the base metal. These values are from standard tables. I have others and other calculations where I can show that MIG actually costs less than stick, but that is for another time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Will, > Hey if you are going to disagree at least do the math right! Note in your > answer below that the ohms value quoted is in Circular Mils/Foot, in other > words it's expressed in cross sectional area. Now in my part of the world a > 0.045" wire has a cross sectional area of almost exactly 1/9 of a 0.125" > wire, not the 1/600 area you quoted. Note the feet in the value equation. > Your 0.125" welding rod is about a foot long. I stated that my 0.045" was > about 1/2" long, 24 times shorter. So put 9/24 and you find that the 0.045" > wire has about 3/8s as much resistance as a 0.125 welding rod! > > This of course all makes sense. Mig welders typically operate with an ARC > voltage of 16 to 18 volts. A stick welder typically has an ARC voltage of > about 30 volts. So the Mig welder can deliver the same energy into the weld > because it can deliver more amps at a lower voltage. > > This all has to make sense because the reason you use a mig welder is to > weld faster. In other words you melt more pounds of steel per minute than a > stick welder can. The energy per pound to melt steel is the same for either > process. Well the mig welder does have an advantage here. The faster you > weld the LESS heat it takes, because the base metal can't conduct it away. > Of course less heat in the base metal means less warping, but then boats > don't warp do they? > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "will jones" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:00 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread ever > die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY > > > Current density for a weld is power per square millimeter, typically in > watts per square millimeter. And power is current squared times resistance. > So the current densities can not be the same for 0.045" verses 0.125". > However, using your line of reasoning they would still be different. I have > copper tables but no steel tables. So I am going to use copper. For > comparison steel, is rated at 100 ohms-cmil/ft and copper is rated 10.09 > ohms-cmil/ft. So a simple iron carbon steel has 10x more resistance than > copper. Won't change the basic calculations, just the scale of the final > numbers. > 0.045 is close on to a 37 guage wire with a resistance of 0.52 ohm/ft for > copper. 0.125" rod is pretty close to a guage 9 wire with a resistance if > 0.0008 ohms/ft for copper. There is over 600x difference in the resistance. > So the current itself can't be the same for a fixed voltage. But the > voltages are different for MIG and SMAW, so lets look at that and the power > delivered at the end of the electrode (rod or wire). > What one has to look at is the secondary supply output. The amps at the > secondary will be the same at the end of electrode. On my MIG it is 180A > @30V and on my 230A stick it is 230A @ 78V. > I am not going to use resistance in the next determination (I've already > shown its significantly different). So what is the power we are going to get > at the end of the electrode. Power is what us turned into heat that melts > the base metal. So the power portion is 32400 for my MIG and 52900 for my > Stick. The power per square inch (no need to convert to mm since just > showing relative difference) is 5,062500 for MIG and 1,079592 for Stick. So > roughly a 5x difference. This would get larger if resistance was figured in > due to large difference between the two guages. > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > From: Gary H. Lucas > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 7:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will, > > You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you can with > > 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the business. > > My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off inside > > portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a cord we > > would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So we thought > > about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. > > > > We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull about 28 > > amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the ground > > wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground wire, that's > > 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would burn that > > tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire current! We > > felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire cord was > > getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? > > > > So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire is not > > just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a really short > > piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little resistance. > > Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat generated is > > very small, and won't burn off the wire. > > > > We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 volt short > > circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That > > provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would reliably > > blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an undamaged > > cord. > > > > Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of the weld > > puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, a hell > > of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps before it > > melts into the arc. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "will jones" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder > > > > >>To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for Mig welding > > >>that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material with the > > >>same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > > > How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. Current > > > density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. Last I > > > looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You are sort > > > of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in the center > > > of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you meed more > > > amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point between > > > the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the 6500K > > > typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to reach the > > > temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel in this > > > type of welding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20783|20649|2009-07-05 10:21:01|David Frantz|Re: choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MA|Hi Well good sales literature can justify anything. MIG may well be cost effective under the right conditions so I won't argue that. The problem as I see it is that MIG can't do everything required to get the ship in the water. In some cases, like outside this year, it wouldn't be successful at all. It isn't like I'm lacking MIG experience as currently it is the only welder I own, plus I've done industrial maintenance with one. The problem is initial conditions and the limited range of welds one can do with a MIG. To develop on the on the conditions issues with MIG, we will assume an outside build. First; you need calm weather with zero breeze in a very literal sense because it takes very little blow the shielding gas away. Second; you need extremely clean metal, in this regard welding mild steel is as tedious as welding aluminum. Joint fitup has to be really good. These problems should cause people to think a bit about MIGing an entire boat. Especially when done outside on the ground. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:51 AM, morgan33t_ior wrote: > I have been a way and now I am back and no I didn't fall of the > earth no matter how some may wish it. :) Don't sigh too much, really > this thread is not all that bad. People are not getting nasty, > which is an excellent aspect of a discussion such as this. > > I see the original poster. See we didn't forget you. The original > poster has decided on a welder in spite of us. If you learn the > technical aspects of welding, you can weld with whatever you have. > My goodness, even a robot can weld. > > I did have to clear up one response, really, only one: > > Gary, I did do the math correctly, really I did. It is not area > that is 600x times difference, it is the resistance. So 0.52/0.0008 > is 650 for copper. If we use 10X greater resistance for steel alloy > then it is 5.2/0.008 which is still 650 times greater. You can have > the same Amps, but not the same current density for differing wire > diameters. This higher resistance combined with current squared > gives you the 6000Kelvin you need at the weld to fuse the thin wire > and the base metal. These values are from standard tables. I have > others and other calculations where I can show that MIG actually > costs less than stick, but that is for another time. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: >> >> Will, >> Hey if you are going to disagree at least do the math right! Note >> in your >> answer below that the ohms value quoted is in Circular Mils/Foot, >> in other >> words it's expressed in cross sectional area. Now in my part of >> the world a >> 0.045" wire has a cross sectional area of almost exactly 1/9 of a >> 0.125" >> wire, not the 1/600 area you quoted. Note the feet in the value >> equation. >> Your 0.125" welding rod is about a foot long. I stated that my >> 0.045" was >> about 1/2" long, 24 times shorter. So put 9/24 and you find that >> the 0.045" >> wire has about 3/8s as much resistance as a 0.125 welding rod! >> >> This of course all makes sense. Mig welders typically operate with >> an ARC >> voltage of 16 to 18 volts. A stick welder typically has an ARC >> voltage of >> about 30 volts. So the Mig welder can deliver the same energy into >> the weld >> because it can deliver more amps at a lower voltage. >> >> This all has to make sense because the reason you use a mig welder >> is to >> weld faster. In other words you melt more pounds of steel per >> minute than a >> stick welder can. The energy per pound to melt steel is the same >> for either >> process. Well the mig welder does have an advantage here. The >> faster you >> weld the LESS heat it takes, because the base metal can't conduct >> it away. >> Of course less heat in the base metal means less warping, but then >> boats >> don't warp do they? >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "will jones" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:00 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread ever >> die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY >> >> >> Current density for a weld is power per square millimeter, >> typically in >> watts per square millimeter. And power is current squared times >> resistance. >> So the current densities can not be the same for 0.045" verses >> 0.125". >> However, using your line of reasoning they would still be >> different. I have >> copper tables but no steel tables. So I am going to use copper. For >> comparison steel, is rated at 100 ohms-cmil/ft and copper is rated >> 10.09 >> ohms-cmil/ft. So a simple iron carbon steel has 10x more resistance >> than >> copper. Won't change the basic calculations, just the scale of the >> final >> numbers. >> 0.045 is close on to a 37 guage wire with a resistance of 0.52 ohm/ >> ft for >> copper. 0.125" rod is pretty close to a guage 9 wire with a >> resistance if >> 0.0008 ohms/ft for copper. There is over 600x difference in the >> resistance. >> So the current itself can't be the same for a fixed voltage. But the >> voltages are different for MIG and SMAW, so lets look at that and >> the power >> delivered at the end of the electrode (rod or wire). >> What one has to look at is the secondary supply output. The amps at >> the >> secondary will be the same at the end of electrode. On my MIG it is >> 180A >> @30V and on my 230A stick it is 230A @ 78V. >> I am not going to use resistance in the next determination (I've >> already >> shown its significantly different). So what is the power we are >> going to get >> at the end of the electrode. Power is what us turned into heat that >> melts >> the base metal. So the power portion is 32400 for my MIG and 52900 >> for my >> Stick. The power per square inch (no need to convert to mm since just >> showing relative difference) is 5,062500 for MIG and 1,079592 for >> Stick. So >> roughly a 5x difference. This would get larger if resistance was >> figured in >> due to large difference between the two guages. >> >> Valhalla >> >> Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 >> >> Bloomington, IN >> >> --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> >> From: Gary H. Lucas >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 7:49 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Will, >> >> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you >> can with >> >> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the >> business. >> >> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off >> inside >> >> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a >> cord we >> >> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So >> we thought >> >> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. >> >> >> >> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull >> about 28 >> >> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the >> ground >> >> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground >> wire, that's >> >> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would >> burn that >> >> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire >> current! We >> >> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire >> cord was >> >> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? >> >> >> >> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire >> is not >> >> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a >> really short >> >> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little >> resistance. >> >> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat >> generated is >> >> very small, and won't burn off the wire. >> >> >> >> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 >> volt short >> >> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That >> >> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would >> reliably >> >> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an >> undamaged >> >> cord. >> >> >> >> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of >> the weld >> >> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, >> a hell >> >> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps >> before it >> >> melts into the arc. >> >> >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "will jones" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder >> >> >> >>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for >>>> Mig welding >> >>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material >>>> with the >> >>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" >> >>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. >>> Current >> >>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. >>> Last I >> >>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You >>> are sort >> >>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in >>> the center >> >>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you >>> meed more >> >>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point >>> between >> >>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the >>> 6500K >> >>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to >>> reach the >> >>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel >>> in this >> >>> type of welding. >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20784|20649|2009-07-05 14:14:38|Tom Mann|Re: choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MA|Interesting Which welds can only be done in stick and not mig provided you use a wind block of sorts? Also interesting comparison aluminum and steel being the same, Wish that was so because the aluminum dinghy I am finishing up now sure would have been easier! Tom On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 7:16 AM, David Frantz wrote: > Hi > > Well good sales literature can justify anything. MIG may well be > cost effective under the right conditions so I won't argue that. The > problem as I see it is that MIG can't do everything required to get > the ship in the water. In some cases, like outside this year, it > wouldn't be successful at all. > > It isn't like I'm lacking MIG experience as currently it is the only > welder I own, plus I've done industrial maintenance with one. The > problem is initial conditions and the limited range of welds one can > do with a MIG. > > To develop on the on the conditions issues with MIG, we will assume an > outside build. First; you need calm weather with zero breeze in a > very literal sense because it takes very little blow the shielding gas > away. Second; you need extremely clean metal, in this regard welding > mild steel is as tedious as welding aluminum. Joint fitup has to be > really good. > > These problems should cause people to think a bit about MIGing an > entire boat. Especially when done outside on the ground. > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:51 AM, morgan33t_ior > wrote: > > > I have been a way and now I am back and no I didn't fall of the > > earth no matter how some may wish it. :) Don't sigh too much, really > > this thread is not all that bad. People are not getting nasty, > > which is an excellent aspect of a discussion such as this. > > > > I see the original poster. See we didn't forget you. The original > > poster has decided on a welder in spite of us. If you learn the > > technical aspects of welding, you can weld with whatever you have. > > My goodness, even a robot can weld. > > > > I did have to clear up one response, really, only one: > > > > Gary, I did do the math correctly, really I did. It is not area > > that is 600x times difference, it is the resistance. So 0.52/0.0008 > > is 650 for copper. If we use 10X greater resistance for steel alloy > > then it is 5.2/0.008 which is still 650 times greater. You can have > > the same Amps, but not the same current density for differing wire > > diameters. This higher resistance combined with current squared > > gives you the 6000Kelvin you need at the weld to fuse the thin wire > > and the base metal. These values are from standard tables. I have > > others and other calculations where I can show that MIG actually > > costs less than stick, but that is for another time. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > >> > >> Will, > >> Hey if you are going to disagree at least do the math right! Note > >> in your > >> answer below that the ohms value quoted is in Circular Mils/Foot, > >> in other > >> words it's expressed in cross sectional area. Now in my part of > >> the world a > >> 0.045" wire has a cross sectional area of almost exactly 1/9 of a > >> 0.125" > >> wire, not the 1/600 area you quoted. Note the feet in the value > >> equation. > >> Your 0.125" welding rod is about a foot long. I stated that my > >> 0.045" was > >> about 1/2" long, 24 times shorter. So put 9/24 and you find that > >> the 0.045" > >> wire has about 3/8s as much resistance as a 0.125 welding rod! > >> > >> This of course all makes sense. Mig welders typically operate with > >> an ARC > >> voltage of 16 to 18 volts. A stick welder typically has an ARC > >> voltage of > >> about 30 volts. So the Mig welder can deliver the same energy into > >> the weld > >> because it can deliver more amps at a lower voltage. > >> > >> This all has to make sense because the reason you use a mig welder > >> is to > >> weld faster. In other words you melt more pounds of steel per > >> minute than a > >> stick welder can. The energy per pound to melt steel is the same > >> for either > >> process. Well the mig welder does have an advantage here. The > >> faster you > >> weld the LESS heat it takes, because the base metal can't conduct > >> it away. > >> Of course less heat in the base metal means less warping, but then > >> boats > >> don't warp do they? > >> > >> Gary H. Lucas > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "will jones" > >> To: > >> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:00 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread ever > >> die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY > >> > >> > >> Current density for a weld is power per square millimeter, > >> typically in > >> watts per square millimeter. And power is current squared times > >> resistance. > >> So the current densities can not be the same for 0.045" verses > >> 0.125". > >> However, using your line of reasoning they would still be > >> different. I have > >> copper tables but no steel tables. So I am going to use copper. For > >> comparison steel, is rated at 100 ohms-cmil/ft and copper is rated > >> 10.09 > >> ohms-cmil/ft. So a simple iron carbon steel has 10x more resistance > >> than > >> copper. Won't change the basic calculations, just the scale of the > >> final > >> numbers. > >> 0.045 is close on to a 37 guage wire with a resistance of 0.52 ohm/ > >> ft for > >> copper. 0.125" rod is pretty close to a guage 9 wire with a > >> resistance if > >> 0.0008 ohms/ft for copper. There is over 600x difference in the > >> resistance. > >> So the current itself can't be the same for a fixed voltage. But the > >> voltages are different for MIG and SMAW, so lets look at that and > >> the power > >> delivered at the end of the electrode (rod or wire). > >> What one has to look at is the secondary supply output. The amps at > >> the > >> secondary will be the same at the end of electrode. On my MIG it is > >> 180A > >> @30V and on my 230A stick it is 230A @ 78V. > >> I am not going to use resistance in the next determination (I've > >> already > >> shown its significantly different). So what is the power we are > >> going to get > >> at the end of the electrode. Power is what us turned into heat that > >> melts > >> the base metal. So the power portion is 32400 for my MIG and 52900 > >> for my > >> Stick. The power per square inch (no need to convert to mm since just > >> showing relative difference) is 5,062500 for MIG and 1,079592 for > >> Stick. So > >> roughly a 5x difference. This would get larger if resistance was > >> figured in > >> due to large difference between the two guages. > >> > >> Valhalla > >> > >> Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > >> > >> Bloomington, IN > >> > >> --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > >> > >> From: Gary H. Lucas > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 7:49 PM > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Will, > >> > >> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you > >> can with > >> > >> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the > >> business. > >> > >> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off > >> inside > >> > >> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a > >> cord we > >> > >> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So > >> we thought > >> > >> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. > >> > >> > >> > >> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull > >> about 28 > >> > >> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the > >> ground > >> > >> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground > >> wire, that's > >> > >> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would > >> burn that > >> > >> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire > >> current! We > >> > >> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire > >> cord was > >> > >> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? > >> > >> > >> > >> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire > >> is not > >> > >> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a > >> really short > >> > >> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little > >> resistance. > >> > >> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat > >> generated is > >> > >> very small, and won't burn off the wire. > >> > >> > >> > >> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 > >> volt short > >> > >> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That > >> > >> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would > >> reliably > >> > >> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an > >> undamaged > >> > >> cord. > >> > >> > >> > >> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of > >> the weld > >> > >> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, > >> a hell > >> > >> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps > >> before it > >> > >> melts into the arc. > >> > >> > >> > >> Gary H. Lucas > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> From: "will jones" > >> > >> To: > >> > >> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM > >> > >> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder > >> > >> > >> > >>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for > >>>> Mig welding > >> > >>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material > >>>> with the > >> > >>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > >> > >>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. > >>> Current > >> > >>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. > >>> Last I > >> > >>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You > >>> are sort > >> > >>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in > >>> the center > >> > >>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you > >>> meed more > >> > >>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point > >>> between > >> > >>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the > >>> 6500K > >> > >>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to > >>> reach the > >> > >>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel > >>> in this > >> > >>> type of welding. > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20785|20778|2009-07-05 17:02:31|Gordon Schnell|Re: Fuel Tank Gasket|I agree with the choice of 3mm nitrile. I did all the tank accesses (water and diesel) and all the lexan ports with it. Did a lot of research prior and that was the best choice Gord PS: Hi Shane. How goes it? SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Nitrile Rubber works well. You can fabricate a gasket out of cut > strips with a razor knife and glue the stuff with krazy glue. but be > careful not to over doo the krazy glue as it can form a hard > lump...all you want it to do is to weld, yes, literally weld, just > like pvc & abs joints it melts the host material & it welds together, > but if you put on too much it just forms a lump & krazy/super glue on > its own cristalizes over time (it apparently never stops reacting, > sort of like concrete) but if you go with just enuf to do the job, the > joint remains pretty flexable. > > I did gaskets that were about 500mm x 500m for the fuel tanks on > Metanme' & had no problems. I went with 3mm sheet. > > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... > theboilerflue > Fri Jul 3, 2009 3:53 pm (PDT) > > Any suggestions as to what to use as gasket material I have at my > disposal right now half a tube of Sikaflex and half a tube of the > silicone RV sealant which I used for the windows. The silicone would > make it easier to open the tank some time in future without having to > pry it off but do diesel and silicon react badly to each other? > > __________________________________________________________ > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to > Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > > > | 20786|20778|2009-07-06 12:04:10|edward_stoneuk|Re: Fuel Tank Gasket|I used nitrile gasket for my fuel tank access ports as well. I used potable water suitable silicon for the water tank though and the jury is still out on the acrylic windows. Regards, Ted| 20787|20787|2009-07-07 02:08:22|theboilerflue|time has come|Well I pulled the boat out of the shed Saturday and I was planning on taking a few days to set the mast up and take measurements for the rigging and boom and such but... well it's a little bigger than i thought and it's kinda in the way so i guess I'll do that in the water later. The crane is coming around 5pm tomorrow and it's going in the water soon after, I'm gonna launch it from the dike road out where Nickel Bros. puts their houses (which has just recently been cleared - just in time) so anyone who's around, if you want to watch feel free. I guess I'll be a resident of the low rent district soon, I'm excited hopefully everything goes off with out a hitch. I put a few more pictures up of the boat - from the side this time, it's been a long time since I've been able to see the whole side of the boat. So far my boat has stayed dry the vent cowlings even with out the innertube cover kept all the rain out from that torrential rainstorm we had last night so that's a good sign so far, window gasket as well - so far so good.| 20788|20787|2009-07-07 04:08:58|Denis Buggy|Re: time has come|well done and the bestof luck from ireland for the launch. denis ----- Original Message ----- From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 7:08 AM Subject: [origamiboats] time has come Well I pulled the boat out of the shed Saturday and I was planning on taking a few days to set the mast up and take measurements for the rigging and boom and such but... well it's a little bigger than i thought and it's kinda in the way so i guess I'll do that in the water later. The crane is coming around 5pm tomorrow and it's going in the water soon after, I'm gonna launch it from the dike road out where Nickel Bros. puts their houses (which has just recently been cleared - just in time) so anyone who's around, if you want to watch feel free. I guess I'll be a resident of the low rent district soon, I'm excited hopefully everything goes off with out a hitch. I put a few more pictures up of the boat - from the side this time, it's been a long time since I've been able to see the whole side of the boat. So far my boat has stayed dry the vent cowlings even with out the innertube cover kept all the rain out from that torrential rainstorm we had last night so that's a good sign so far, window gasket as well - so far so good. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20789|20789|2009-07-07 08:47:08|Keith Green|material compatability|Hi guys, I don't post much here but today i have a question you all might be able to help with. I recently bought a plywood dinghy (GlenL 14) that may be as much as 35 years old or so. It's in pretty good shape and I've had her out a couple times already. Last time out i noticed the centerboard was sticking and removed it. Turns out it has this cast iron shoe attached to the bottom of the plywood centerboard with a mortise-and tenon arrangement. Water had gotten in over the years and rotted away the cheeks of the mortise in the cast shoe. They no longer sell this part so I was thinking the quickest fix for this would be to machine shallow pockets in the remaining solid part of the shoe and replace the cheeks with bolted-in flatbar. My question is this: What material would be best suited for use as the flat-bar? I was considering steel, SS or brass as the easiest to get. SS would be my first choice but have heard rumblings about corrosion of SS in the oxygen-free interface of the lap-joint I will have. Is this going to be cause for worry or is there another material that will be better with the cast iron? Is there a good bedding compound I can get that will help keep the water out better than what was in there (probably nothing). I like to keep things simple so am not averse to using old-school stuff like tar, pine tar, etc. Thanks, Keith Green Surrey, BC.| 20790|20787|2009-07-07 09:06:54|Ray|Re: time has come|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Well I pulled the boat out of the shed Saturday and I was planning on taking a few days to set the mast up and take measurements for the rigging and boom and such but... well it's a little bigger than i thought and it's kinda in the way so i guess I'll do that in the water later. The crane is coming around 5pm tomorrow and it's going in the water soon after, I'm gonna launch it from the dike road out where Nickel Bros. puts their houses (which has just recently been cleared - just in time) so anyone who's around, if you want to watch feel free. I guess I'll be a resident of the low rent district soon, I'm excited hopefully everything goes off with out a hitch. I put a few more pictures up of the boat - from the side this time, it's been a long time since I've been able to see the whole side of the boat. So far my boat has stayed dry the vent cowlings even with out the innertube cover kept all the rain out from that torrential rainstorm we had last night so that's a good sign so far, window gasket as well - so far so good. > Congrats! Remember: Pics or it didn't happen!| 20791|20791|2009-07-07 11:10:29|SHANE ROTHWELL|Time Has Come|The Big Splash! Good on you lad, nothing quite like getting your arse wet! May it warm your heart Sir! How long before you got the stick in her, the memory of having finally told your employer what you really think of him & have the laundry flyin'? __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/| 20792|20792|2009-07-07 11:19:34|Shane Duncan|Re: Brent Swain 31 with aluminium cabin top and Yanmar sail drive|could resist this pic my two babies   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/2129904435/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc cheers   shane   ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20793|20792|2009-07-07 11:38:14|khooper_fboats|Re: Brent Swain 31 with aluminium cabin top and Yanmar sail drive|Do you have your keel poured? Is that trailer okay? I hope it is stronger than it looks. It must be =^\ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > could resist this pic > my two babies > >   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/2129904435/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc > > cheers >   > shane > >   > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. > Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20794|20792|2009-07-07 12:04:52|dejongralph|Re: Brent Swain 31 with aluminium cabin top and Yanmar sail drive|Nice babies super| 20795|20792|2009-07-07 16:12:15|theboilerflue|Re: Brent Swain 31 with aluminium cabin top and Yanmar sail drive|Nice trailer! thought about building one but ran out of time maybe some other time i'll get around to it. A trailer for twin keelers would be quite an asset on Vancouver Island.| 20796|20787|2009-07-07 16:22:13|Carl Anderson|Re: time has come|Congratulations Haidan! Hope the launching goes well. Two new to the water Brent Boats this week!!! Carl & Kate sv-mom.com Cortes Bay, BC theboilerflue wrote: > > > Well I pulled the boat out of the shed Saturday and I was planning on > taking a few days to set the mast up and take measurements for the > rigging and boom and such but... well it's a little bigger than i > thought and it's kinda in the way so i guess I'll do that in the water > later. The crane is coming around 5pm tomorrow and it's going in the > water soon after, I'm gonna launch it from the dike road out where > Nickel Bros. puts their houses (which has just recently been cleared - > just in time) so anyone who's around, if you want to watch feel free. > I guess I'll be a resident of the low rent district soon, I'm excited > hopefully everything goes off with out a hitch. I put a few more > pictures up of the boat - from the side this time, it's been a long > time since I've been able to see the whole side of the boat. So far my > boat has stayed dry the vent cowlings even with out the innertube > cover kept all the rain out from that torrential rainstorm we had last > night so that's a good sign so far, window gasket as well - so far so > good. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20797|20792|2009-07-07 20:00:40|Doug Jackson|Re: Brent Swain 31 with aluminium cabin top and Yanmar sail drive|Both look good. How did you end up attaching the cabin top to the deck? --Doug J ________________________________ From: Shane Duncan To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 10:19:17 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain 31 with aluminium cabin top and Yanmar sail drive could resist this pic my two babies http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/origamiboa ts/photos/ album/1266123051 /pic/2129904435/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc cheers shane [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20798|20792|2009-07-07 21:14:46|polaris041|Re: Brent Swain 31 with aluminium cabin top and Yanmar sail drive|Great effort Shane. From experience of having built a couple boats and having 2 children; now the expensive bit starts. But it's all part of the journey and well worth the effort. So you are moving the vessel to another locality for fit out or is the trailer just in preparation for that later on? regards pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > could resist this pic > my two babies > >   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/2129904435/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc > > cheers >   > shane | 20799|20787|2009-07-08 05:12:52|kingsknight4life|Re: time has come|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Congratulations Haidan! > > Hope the launching goes well. > > Two new to the water Brent Boats this week!!! > > Carl & Kate > sv-mom.com > > Cortes Bay, BC > >Congrats Haidan Must fell awesome to be putting your boat n the water. Carl which is the other boat? Rowland| 20800|20800|2009-07-08 09:15:39|building_bighouse|Steel Prices|Online newsletter of a steel producer, June 2009 edition: http://www.steelforge.com/metalswatch/2009/June.htm This says steel prices are averaging $420/ton USD and some are selling it as low as $380/ton. I know things are bad out there but...19c a pound? Has anybody priced steel in the real world in the past few weeks? I priced out the materials list of an entire steel Dix 57 last night just for grins and at 24c/lb it comes to less than $5K not counting waste. Am I missing something? Ken| 20801|20800|2009-07-08 09:52:57|Tom Mann|Re: Steel Prices|I hope it dont go that low! That might be good for us at the moment but the mills that fired up here in the US when the price was high enough for them to make it will shurly close up in a hurry then were back to buying from over seas again. On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:15 AM, building_bighouse < building_bighouse@...> wrote: > Online newsletter of a steel producer, June 2009 edition: > > http://www.steelforge.com/metalswatch/2009/June.htm > > This says steel prices are averaging $420/ton USD and some are selling it > as low as $380/ton. I know things are bad out there but...19c a pound? Has > anybody priced steel in the real world in the past few weeks? > > I priced out the materials list of an entire steel Dix 57 last night just > for grins and at 24c/lb it comes to less than $5K not counting waste. Am I > missing something? > > Ken > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20802|20649|2009-07-08 12:48:39|will jones|Re: choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MA|I can't imagine that there is a weld you can do with a 200-230A buzz box that I can't do with a 160-200A MIG using flux core wire.  One can weld thinner steel, aluminum, cast iron and stainless better with a MIG than a buzz box.  MIG gives better penetration than a buzz box of same relative Amps. What do you mean you can't weld outside?  That is the silliest myth I've ever read.  You can readily use flux core wire.  You don't need a shielding gas, especially for plate steel.  But when you need to weld aluminum or stainless, you will want that shielding gas because using stick pretty well gives you a poor quality weld compared to MIG.  I'd like to use some expletives to describe how poor stick is in these situations, but this is a family group.  :) My last project was a 38' trailer for a 33' 10,000lb sailboat with a 4' fixed keel.  Built it out of 8"-11.5lb/ft and 7"-9.8lb/ft C channel with a nominal web thickness of 0.195-0.22" to over 0.5", on the flange, with a 180A MIG using .035 flux core.  Built it in my driveway, outside.  Even stored the steel outside.  Towed the boat fine for 194 miles.  1/4" cold rolled plate is a walk in the park for a 175-200A MIG using 0.035 flux core. I can't imagine that people are out there welding up the inside, bending their boat and not back welding the outside with a buzz box.  I know I would be.  So there is no great mythical power from a buzz box here over MIG. Another myth-you do not need meticulously clean steel.  I didn't clean a single piece.  Due to the thickness I did bevel flanges. But I would have done that for a buzz box.  This is called knowing your material and welder limitations and how to produce a good weld. Why wouldn't you kiss the edges of your 1/4" plate steel with a grinder when welding with a buzz box?  That is just a good welding practice and has nothing to do with the welder.  Being on the ground is great, now you have a heat sink to keep your 1/4" plate from warping.  :-) What, now you can't fill with a MIG.  Now you can fill faster with a stick since it is throwing more than 4x the amount of filler metal.  But then with a MIG, you aren't wasting a lot of filler metal to fuse two pieces like you do with stick.  You get the same properties with wire and stick of the same type, you just use a lot more with stick than with MIG to do the same job.  Now there are times when a big old glob of filler adds to structure, but a butt joint isn't one of them. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Sun, 7/5/09, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:16 AM Hi Well good sales literature can justify anything. MIG may well be cost effective under the right conditions so I won't argue that. The problem as I see it is that MIG can't do everything required to get the ship in the water. In some cases, like outside this year, it wouldn't be successful at all. It isn't like I'm lacking MIG experience as currently it is the only welder I own, plus I've done industrial maintenance with one. The problem is initial conditions and the limited range of welds one can do with a MIG. To develop on the on the conditions issues with MIG, we will assume an outside build. First; you need calm weather with zero breeze in a very literal sense because it takes very little blow the shielding gas away. Second; you need extremely clean metal, in this regard welding mild steel is as tedious as welding aluminum. Joint fitup has to be really good. These problems should cause people to think a bit about MIGing an entire boat. Especially when done outside on the ground. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:51 AM, morgan33t_ior wrote: > I have been a way and now I am back and no I didn't fall of the > earth no matter how some may wish it. :) Don't sigh too much, really > this thread is not all that bad. People are not getting nasty, > which is an excellent aspect of a discussion such as this. > > I see the original poster. See we didn't forget you. The original > poster has decided on a welder in spite of us. If you learn the > technical aspects of welding, you can weld with whatever you have. > My goodness, even a robot can weld. > > I did have to clear up one response, really, only one: > > Gary, I did do the math correctly, really I did. It is not area > that is 600x times difference, it is the resistance. So 0.52/0.0008 > is 650 for copper. If we use 10X greater resistance for steel alloy > then it is 5.2/0.008 which is still 650 times greater. You can have > the same Amps, but not the same current density for differing wire > diameters. This higher resistance combined with current squared > gives you the 6000Kelvin you need at the weld to fuse the thin wire > and the base metal. These values are from standard tables. I have > others and other calculations where I can show that MIG actually > costs less than stick, but that is for another time. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: >> >> Will, >> Hey if you are going to disagree at least do the math right! Note >> in your >> answer below that the ohms value quoted is in Circular Mils/Foot, >> in other >> words it's expressed in cross sectional area. Now in my part of >> the world a >> 0.045" wire has a cross sectional area of almost exactly 1/9 of a >> 0.125" >> wire, not the 1/600 area you quoted. Note the feet in the value >> equation. >> Your 0.125" welding rod is about a foot long. I stated that my >> 0.045" was >> about 1/2" long, 24 times shorter. So put 9/24 and you find that >> the 0.045" >> wire has about 3/8s as much resistance as a 0.125 welding rod! >> >> This of course all makes sense. Mig welders typically operate with >> an ARC >> voltage of 16 to 18 volts. A stick welder typically has an ARC >> voltage of >> about 30 volts. So the Mig welder can deliver the same energy into >> the weld >> because it can deliver more amps at a lower voltage. >> >> This all has to make sense because the reason you use a mig welder >> is to >> weld faster. In other words you melt more pounds of steel per >> minute than a >> stick welder can. The energy per pound to melt steel is the same >> for either >> process. Well the mig welder does have an advantage here. The >> faster you >> weld the LESS heat it takes, because the base metal can't conduct >> it away. >> Of course less heat in the base metal means less warping, but then >> boats >> don't warp do they? >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "will jones" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:00 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread ever >> die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY >> >> >> Current density for a weld is power per square millimeter, >> typically in >> watts per square millimeter. And power is current squared times >> resistance. >> So the current densities can not be the same for 0.045" verses >> 0.125". >> However, using your line of reasoning they would still be >> different. I have >> copper tables but no steel tables. So I am going to use copper. For >> comparison steel, is rated at 100 ohms-cmil/ft and copper is rated >> 10.09 >> ohms-cmil/ft. So a simple iron carbon steel has 10x more resistance >> than >> copper. Won't change the basic calculations, just the scale of the >> final >> numbers. >> 0.045 is close on to a 37 guage wire with a resistance of 0.52 ohm/ >> ft for >> copper. 0.125" rod is pretty close to a guage 9 wire with a >> resistance if >> 0.0008 ohms/ft for copper. There is over 600x difference in the >> resistance. >> So the current itself can't be the same for a fixed voltage. But the >> voltages are different for MIG and SMAW, so lets look at that and >> the power >> delivered at the end of the electrode (rod or wire). >> What one has to look at is the secondary supply output. The amps at >> the >> secondary will be the same at the end of electrode. On my MIG it is >> 180A >> @30V and on my 230A stick it is 230A @ 78V. >> I am not going to use resistance in the next determination (I've >> already >> shown its significantly different). So what is the power we are >> going to get >> at the end of the electrode. Power is what us turned into heat that >> melts >> the base metal. So the power portion is 32400 for my MIG and 52900 >> for my >> Stick. The power per square inch (no need to convert to mm since just >> showing relative difference) is 5,062500 for MIG and 1,079592 for >> Stick. So >> roughly a 5x difference. This would get larger if resistance was >> figured in >> due to large difference between the two guages. >> >> Valhalla >> >> Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 >> >> Bloomington, IN >> >> --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> >> From: Gary H. Lucas >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 7:49 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Will, >> >> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you >> can with >> >> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the >> business. >> >> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off >> inside >> >> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a >> cord we >> >> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So >> we thought >> >> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. >> >> >> >> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull >> about 28 >> >> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the >> ground >> >> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground >> wire, that's >> >> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would >> burn that >> >> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire >> current! We >> >> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire >> cord was >> >> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? >> >> >> >> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire >> is not >> >> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a >> really short >> >> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little >> resistance. >> >> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat >> generated is >> >> very small, and won't burn off the wire. >> >> >> >> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 >> volt short >> >> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That >> >> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would >> reliably >> >> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an >> undamaged >> >> cord. >> >> >> >> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of >> the weld >> >> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, >> a hell >> >> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps >> before it >> >> melts into the arc. >> >> >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "will jones" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder >> >> >> >>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for >>>> Mig welding >> >>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material >>>> with the >> >>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" >> >>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. >>> Current >> >>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. >>> Last I >> >>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You >>> are sort >> >>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in >>> the center >> >>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you >>> meed more >> >>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point >>> between >> >>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the >>> 6500K >> >>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to >>> reach the >> >>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel >>> in this >> >>> type of welding. >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20803|20655|2009-07-08 12:53:48|will jones|Re: sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood|I had to do some window repairs and ran one over to a local auto glass shop.  He said the best sealant was polyurethane for the glass to aluminum frame I was working with. To clean surfaces I typically use MEK with 20% acetone.  Wipe it on, then wipe off with a clean towel.  The wipe off is important because solvents dissolve the grease, oil etc and evaporate off, leaving a residue.  If I am really worried about a residue, I follow up with a methanol wipe. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Mon, 6/15/09, edward_stoneuk wrote: From: edward_stoneuk Subject: [origamiboats] sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 2:45 PM Hi all, Soon I will be fitting the cabin, hatches and pilot house 10mm acrylic windows. What are your favourite sealants for sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood, and what cleaners and primers have been used before applying the sealant? Thanks, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20804|20649|2009-07-08 14:10:26|David Frantz|Re: choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MA|Hi all First off Mig is not Flux Core by any measure. Second a Mig torch dramatically limits access to places that are easy to get to with a stick welder. Third Mighas limited penetration with respect to similarly priced buzz box type welders. Please note that right now I have one welder which is a Mig welder. Even with that if I went forward with a boat build I would likely have a stick welder available to me for the project. A Mig has it's uses, I don't deny that, but if you are looking to buy one welder to do the whole project I believe it would be a poor choice. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 8, 2009, at 12:48 PM, will jones wrote: > I can't imagine that there is a weld you can do with a 200-230A buzz > box that I can't do with a 160-200A MIG using flux core wire. One > can weld thinner steel, aluminum, cast iron and stainless better > with a MIG than a buzz box. MIG gives better penetration than a > buzz box of same relative Amps. > > What do you mean you can't weld outside? That is the silliest myth > I've ever read. You can readily use flux core wire. You don't need > a shielding gas, especially for plate steel. But when you need to > weld aluminum or stainless, you will want that shielding gas because > using stick pretty well gives you a poor quality weld compared to > MIG. I'd like to use some expletives to describe how poor stick is > in these situations, but this is a family group. :) > > My last project was a 38' trailer for a 33' 10,000lb sailboat with a > 4' fixed keel. Built it out of 8"-11.5lb/ft and 7"-9.8lb/ft C > channel with a nominal web thickness of 0.195-0.22" to over 0.5", on > the flange, with a 180A MIG using .035 flux core. Built it in my > driveway, outside. Even stored the steel outside. Towed the boat > fine for 194 miles. 1/4" cold rolled plate is a walk in the park > for a 175-200A MIG using 0.035 flux core. I can't imagine that > people are out there welding up the inside, bending their boat and > not back welding the outside with a buzz box. I know I would be. > So there is no great mythical power from a buzz box here over MIG. > > Another myth-you do not need meticulously clean steel. I didn't > clean a single piece. Due to the thickness I did bevel flanges. But > I would have done that for a buzz box. This is called knowing your > material and welder limitations and how to produce a good weld. Why > wouldn't you kiss the edges of your 1/4" plate steel with a grinder > when welding with a buzz box? That is just a good welding practice > and has nothing to do with the welder. Being on the ground is > great, now you have a heat sink to keep your 1/4" plate from > warping. :-) > > What, now you can't fill with a MIG. Now you can fill faster with a > stick since it is throwing more than 4x the amount of filler metal. > But then with a MIG, you aren't wasting a lot of filler metal to > fuse two pieces like you do with stick. You get the same properties > with wire and stick of the same type, you just use a lot more with > stick than with MIG to do the same job. Now there are times when a > big old glob of filler adds to structure, but a butt joint isn't one > of them. > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, David Frantz wrote: > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread > ever die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:16 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > Well good sales literature can justify anything. MIG may well be > > cost effective under the right conditions so I won't argue that. The > > problem as I see it is that MIG can't do everything required to get > > the ship in the water. In some cases, like outside this year, it > > wouldn't be successful at all. > > > > It isn't like I'm lacking MIG experience as currently it is the only > > welder I own, plus I've done industrial maintenance with one. The > > problem is initial conditions and the limited range of welds one can > > do with a MIG. > > > > To develop on the on the conditions issues with MIG, we will assume an > > outside build. First; you need calm weather with zero breeze in a > > very literal sense because it takes very little blow the shielding gas > > away. Second; you need extremely clean metal, in this regard welding > > mild steel is as tedious as welding aluminum. Joint fitup has to be > > really good. > > > > These problems should cause people to think a bit about MIGing an > > entire boat. Especially when done outside on the ground. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:51 AM, morgan33t_ior > > wrote: > > > >> I have been a way and now I am back and no I didn't fall of the > >> earth no matter how some may wish it. :) Don't sigh too much, really > >> this thread is not all that bad. People are not getting nasty, > >> which is an excellent aspect of a discussion such as this. > >> > >> I see the original poster. See we didn't forget you. The original > >> poster has decided on a welder in spite of us. If you learn the > >> technical aspects of welding, you can weld with whatever you have. > >> My goodness, even a robot can weld. > >> > >> I did have to clear up one response, really, only one: > >> > >> Gary, I did do the math correctly, really I did. It is not area > >> that is 600x times difference, it is the resistance. So 0.52/0.0008 > >> is 650 for copper. If we use 10X greater resistance for steel alloy > >> then it is 5.2/0.008 which is still 650 times greater. You can have > >> the same Amps, but not the same current density for differing wire > >> diameters. This higher resistance combined with current squared > >> gives you the 6000Kelvin you need at the weld to fuse the thin wire > >> and the base metal. These values are from standard tables. I have > >> others and other calculations where I can show that MIG actually > >> costs less than stick, but that is for another time. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary H. Lucas" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Will, > >>> Hey if you are going to disagree at least do the math right! Note > >>> in your > >>> answer below that the ohms value quoted is in Circular Mils/Foot, > >>> in other > >>> words it's expressed in cross sectional area. Now in my part of > >>> the world a > >>> 0.045" wire has a cross sectional area of almost exactly 1/9 of a > >>> 0.125" > >>> wire, not the 1/600 area you quoted. Note the feet in the value > >>> equation. > >>> Your 0.125" welding rod is about a foot long. I stated that my > >>> 0.045" was > >>> about 1/2" long, 24 times shorter. So put 9/24 and you find that > >>> the 0.045" > >>> wire has about 3/8s as much resistance as a 0.125 welding rod! > >>> > >>> This of course all makes sense. Mig welders typically operate with > >>> an ARC > >>> voltage of 16 to 18 volts. A stick welder typically has an ARC > >>> voltage of > >>> about 30 volts. So the Mig welder can deliver the same energy into > >>> the weld > >>> because it can deliver more amps at a lower voltage. > >>> > >>> This all has to make sense because the reason you use a mig welder > >>> is to > >>> weld faster. In other words you melt more pounds of steel per > >>> minute than a > >>> stick welder can. The energy per pound to melt steel is the same > >>> for either > >>> process. Well the mig welder does have an advantage here. The > >>> faster you > >>> weld the LESS heat it takes, because the base metal can't conduct > >>> it away. > >>> Of course less heat in the base metal means less warping, but then > >>> boats > >>> don't warp do they? > >>> > >>> Gary H. Lucas > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "will jones" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:00 PM > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread ever > >>> die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY > >>> > >>> > >>> Current density for a weld is power per square millimeter, > >>> typically in > >>> watts per square millimeter. And power is current squared times > >>> resistance. > >>> So the current densities can not be the same for 0.045" verses > >>> 0.125". > >>> However, using your line of reasoning they would still be > >>> different. I have > >>> copper tables but no steel tables. So I am going to use copper. For > >>> comparison steel, is rated at 100 ohms-cmil/ft and copper is rated > >>> 10.09 > >>> ohms-cmil/ft. So a simple iron carbon steel has 10x more resistance > >>> than > >>> copper. Won't change the basic calculations, just the scale of the > >>> final > >>> numbers. > >>> 0.045 is close on to a 37 guage wire with a resistance of 0.52 ohm/ > >>> ft for > >>> copper. 0.125" rod is pretty close to a guage 9 wire with a > >>> resistance if > >>> 0.0008 ohms/ft for copper. There is over 600x difference in the > >>> resistance. > >>> So the current itself can't be the same for a fixed voltage. But the > >>> voltages are different for MIG and SMAW, so lets look at that and > >>> the power > >>> delivered at the end of the electrode (rod or wire). > >>> What one has to look at is the secondary supply output. The amps at > >>> the > >>> secondary will be the same at the end of electrode. On my MIG it is > >>> 180A > >>> @30V and on my 230A stick it is 230A @ 78V. > >>> I am not going to use resistance in the next determination (I've > >>> already > >>> shown its significantly different). So what is the power we are > >>> going to get > >>> at the end of the electrode. Power is what us turned into heat that > >>> melts > >>> the base metal. So the power portion is 32400 for my MIG and 52900 > >>> for my > >>> Stick. The power per square inch (no need to convert to mm since >>> just > >>> showing relative difference) is 5,062500 for MIG and 1,079592 for > >>> Stick. So > >>> roughly a 5x difference. This would get larger if resistance was > >>> figured in > >>> due to large difference between the two guages. > >>> > >>> Valhalla > >>> > >>> Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > >>> > >>> Bloomington, IN > >>> > >>> --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > >>> > >>> From: Gary H. Lucas > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > >>> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >>> Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 7:49 PM > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Will, > >>> > >>> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you > >>> can with > >>> > >>> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the > >>> business. > >>> > >>> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off > >>> inside > >>> > >>> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a > >>> cord we > >>> > >>> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So > >>> we thought > >>> > >>> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull > >>> about 28 > >>> > >>> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the > >>> ground > >>> > >>> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground > >>> wire, that's > >>> > >>> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would > >>> burn that > >>> > >>> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire > >>> current! We > >>> > >>> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire > >>> cord was > >>> > >>> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire > >>> is not > >>> > >>> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a > >>> really short > >>> > >>> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little > >>> resistance. > >>> > >>> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat > >>> generated is > >>> > >>> very small, and won't burn off the wire. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 > >>> volt short > >>> > >>> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That > >>> > >>> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would > >>> reliably > >>> > >>> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an > >>> undamaged > >>> > >>> cord. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of > >>> the weld > >>> > >>> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, > >>> a hell > >>> > >>> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps > >>> before it > >>> > >>> melts into the arc. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Gary H. Lucas > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> > >>> From: "will jones" > >>> > >>> To: > >>> > >>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM > >>> > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for > >>>>> Mig welding > >>> > >>>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material > >>>>> with the > >>> > >>>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > >>> > >>>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. > >>>> Current > >>> > >>>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. > >>>> Last I > >>> > >>>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You > >>>> are sort > >>> > >>>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in > >>>> the center > >>> > >>>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you > >>>> meed more > >>> > >>>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point > >>>> between > >>> > >>>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the > >>>> 6500K > >>> > >>>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to > >>>> reach the > >>> > >>>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel > >>>> in this > >>> > >>>> type of welding. > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20805|20800|2009-07-08 15:02:18|Wesley Cox|Re: Steel Prices|At the retail level, I recently priced some structural items. My best choice of local supplier has a weird pricing system that isn't very consistent by weight, premiums being added to small simple shapes. I can say the prices were approximately the same to slightly less than they were 4 years ago, at which time they were about 50% higher than 5 years prior. In my case, the price has fallen substantially from the peak but not terribly much vs historically prices. ----- Original Message ----- From: building_bighouse To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 8:15 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Prices Online newsletter of a steel producer, June 2009 edition: http://www.steelforge.com/metalswatch/2009/June.htm This says steel prices are averaging $420/ton USD and some are selling it as low as $380/ton. I know things are bad out there but...19c a pound? Has anybody priced steel in the real world in the past few weeks? I priced out the materials list of an entire steel Dix 57 last night just for grins and at 24c/lb it comes to less than $5K not counting waste. Am I missing something? Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.7/2222 - Release Date: 07/07/09 05:53:00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20806|20649|2009-07-08 15:18:51|Wesley Cox|Re: choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MA|I completely agree with this. I can do far more with a $400 stick welder than a $400 mig welder, which is even more true in the $200 range. Everyone has their preference, some strong preferences. I have all Lincoln welders, AC only and AC/DC stick, MIG and TIG. I use TIG any time finesse is required and if not, I use one of the stick welders. I haven't used MIG in years. If I were building my dream boat now, I absolutely would do it with a stick welder and feel 100% confident about it. My 6011 welds don't look as nice as my MIG welds, but they are still sharp. If I were to take the time to de-rust and used 6010, it would take a good eye to see the difference between my 6010 welds and MIG welds done by (another) pro. Nice MIG welds do look better to me, but it is not a major difference. My point is I wouldn't want someone who doesn't have the experience to know to take these arguments with a grain of salt to be discouraged from building a boat with a stick welder based on some of the implications in this thread that anything but MIG welding is inferior. Someone said that a boat surveyor will know if a boat was built with a buzz box and the value would be hurt by the fact. The adjectives were a bit stronger, but I don't remember them exactly. I won't claim to know if this is true or not, as I have zero experience in the field of boat surveying. I would ask, rhetorically, if the general case were made that stick welding is inferior to MIG welding, would that mean that all of the pipelines and buildings constructed by stick welds are of inferior quality? Of course not. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Frantz To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY Hi all First off Mig is not Flux Core by any measure. Second a Mig torch dramatically limits access to places that are easy to get to with a stick welder. Third Mighas limited penetration with respect to similarly priced buzz box type welders. Please note that right now I have one welder which is a Mig welder. Even with that if I went forward with a boat build I would likely have a stick welder available to me for the project. A Mig has it's uses, I don't deny that, but if you are looking to buy one welder to do the whole project I believe it would be a poor choice. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 8, 2009, at 12:48 PM, will jones wrote: > I can't imagine that there is a weld you can do with a 200-230A buzz > box that I can't do with a 160-200A MIG using flux core wire. One > can weld thinner steel, aluminum, cast iron and stainless better > with a MIG than a buzz box. MIG gives better penetration than a > buzz box of same relative Amps. > > What do you mean you can't weld outside? That is the silliest myth > I've ever read. You can readily use flux core wire. You don't need > a shielding gas, especially for plate steel. But when you need to > weld aluminum or stainless, you will want that shielding gas because > using stick pretty well gives you a poor quality weld compared to > MIG. I'd like to use some expletives to describe how poor stick is > in these situations, but this is a family group. :) > > My last project was a 38' trailer for a 33' 10,000lb sailboat with a > 4' fixed keel. Built it out of 8"-11.5lb/ft and 7"-9.8lb/ft C > channel with a nominal web thickness of 0.195-0.22" to over 0.5", on > the flange, with a 180A MIG using .035 flux core. Built it in my > driveway, outside. Even stored the steel outside. Towed the boat > fine for 194 miles. 1/4" cold rolled plate is a walk in the park > for a 175-200A MIG using 0.035 flux core. I can't imagine that > people are out there welding up the inside, bending their boat and > not back welding the outside with a buzz box. I know I would be. > So there is no great mythical power from a buzz box here over MIG. > > Another myth-you do not need meticulously clean steel. I didn't > clean a single piece. Due to the thickness I did bevel flanges. But > I would have done that for a buzz box. This is called knowing your > material and welder limitations and how to produce a good weld. Why > wouldn't you kiss the edges of your 1/4" plate steel with a grinder > when welding with a buzz box? That is just a good welding practice > and has nothing to do with the welder. Being on the ground is > great, now you have a heat sink to keep your 1/4" plate from > warping. :-) > > What, now you can't fill with a MIG. Now you can fill faster with a > stick since it is throwing more than 4x the amount of filler metal. > But then with a MIG, you aren't wasting a lot of filler metal to > fuse two pieces like you do with stick. You get the same properties > with wire and stick of the same type, you just use a lot more with > stick than with MIG to do the same job. Now there are times when a > big old glob of filler adds to structure, but a butt joint isn't one > of them. > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, David Frantz wrote: > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread > ever die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:16 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > Well good sales literature can justify anything. MIG may well be > > cost effective under the right conditions so I won't argue that. The > > problem as I see it is that MIG can't do everything required to get > > the ship in the water. In some cases, like outside this year, it > > wouldn't be successful at all. > > > > It isn't like I'm lacking MIG experience as currently it is the only > > welder I own, plus I've done industrial maintenance with one. The > > problem is initial conditions and the limited range of welds one can > > do with a MIG. > > > > To develop on the on the conditions issues with MIG, we will assume an > > outside build. First; you need calm weather with zero breeze in a > > very literal sense because it takes very little blow the shielding gas > > away. Second; you need extremely clean metal, in this regard welding > > mild steel is as tedious as welding aluminum. Joint fitup has to be > > really good. > > > > These problems should cause people to think a bit about MIGing an > > entire boat. Especially when done outside on the ground. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:51 AM, morgan33t_ior > > wrote: > > > >> I have been a way and now I am back and no I didn't fall of the > >> earth no matter how some may wish it. :) Don't sigh too much, really > >> this thread is not all that bad. People are not getting nasty, > >> which is an excellent aspect of a discussion such as this. > >> > >> I see the original poster. See we didn't forget you. The original > >> poster has decided on a welder in spite of us. If you learn the > >> technical aspects of welding, you can weld with whatever you have. > >> My goodness, even a robot can weld. > >> > >> I did have to clear up one response, really, only one: > >> > >> Gary, I did do the math correctly, really I did. It is not area > >> that is 600x times difference, it is the resistance. So 0.52/0.0008 > >> is 650 for copper. If we use 10X greater resistance for steel alloy > >> then it is 5.2/0.008 which is still 650 times greater. You can have > >> the same Amps, but not the same current density for differing wire > >> diameters. This higher resistance combined with current squared > >> gives you the 6000Kelvin you need at the weld to fuse the thin wire > >> and the base metal. These values are from standard tables. I have > >> others and other calculations where I can show that MIG actually > >> costs less than stick, but that is for another time. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary H. Lucas" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Will, > >>> Hey if you are going to disagree at least do the math right! Note > >>> in your > >>> answer below that the ohms value quoted is in Circular Mils/Foot, > >>> in other > >>> words it's expressed in cross sectional area. Now in my part of > >>> the world a > >>> 0.045" wire has a cross sectional area of almost exactly 1/9 of a > >>> 0.125" > >>> wire, not the 1/600 area you quoted. Note the feet in the value > >>> equation. > >>> Your 0.125" welding rod is about a foot long. I stated that my > >>> 0.045" was > >>> about 1/2" long, 24 times shorter. So put 9/24 and you find that > >>> the 0.045" > >>> wire has about 3/8s as much resistance as a 0.125 welding rod! > >>> > >>> This of course all makes sense. Mig welders typically operate with > >>> an ARC > >>> voltage of 16 to 18 volts. A stick welder typically has an ARC > >>> voltage of > >>> about 30 volts. So the Mig welder can deliver the same energy into > >>> the weld > >>> because it can deliver more amps at a lower voltage. > >>> > >>> This all has to make sense because the reason you use a mig welder > >>> is to > >>> weld faster. In other words you melt more pounds of steel per > >>> minute than a > >>> stick welder can. The energy per pound to melt steel is the same > >>> for either > >>> process. Well the mig welder does have an advantage here. The > >>> faster you > >>> weld the LESS heat it takes, because the base metal can't conduct > >>> it away. > >>> Of course less heat in the base metal means less warping, but then > >>> boats > >>> don't warp do they? > >>> > >>> Gary H. Lucas > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "will jones" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:00 PM > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread ever > >>> die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY > >>> > >>> > >>> Current density for a weld is power per square millimeter, > >>> typically in > >>> watts per square millimeter. And power is current squared times > >>> resistance. > >>> So the current densities can not be the same for 0.045" verses > >>> 0.125". > >>> However, using your line of reasoning they would still be > >>> different. I have > >>> copper tables but no steel tables. So I am going to use copper. For > >>> comparison steel, is rated at 100 ohms-cmil/ft and copper is rated > >>> 10.09 > >>> ohms-cmil/ft. So a simple iron carbon steel has 10x more resistance > >>> than > >>> copper. Won't change the basic calculations, just the scale of the > >>> final > >>> numbers. > >>> 0.045 is close on to a 37 guage wire with a resistance of 0.52 ohm/ > >>> ft for > >>> copper. 0.125" rod is pretty close to a guage 9 wire with a > >>> resistance if > >>> 0.0008 ohms/ft for copper. There is over 600x difference in the > >>> resistance. > >>> So the current itself can't be the same for a fixed voltage. But the > >>> voltages are different for MIG and SMAW, so lets look at that and > >>> the power > >>> delivered at the end of the electrode (rod or wire). > >>> What one has to look at is the secondary supply output. The amps at > >>> the > >>> secondary will be the same at the end of electrode. On my MIG it is > >>> 180A > >>> @30V and on my 230A stick it is 230A @ 78V. > >>> I am not going to use resistance in the next determination (I've > >>> already > >>> shown its significantly different). So what is the power we are > >>> going to get > >>> at the end of the electrode. Power is what us turned into heat that > >>> melts > >>> the base metal. So the power portion is 32400 for my MIG and 52900 > >>> for my > >>> Stick. The power per square inch (no need to convert to mm since >>> just > >>> showing relative difference) is 5,062500 for MIG and 1,079592 for > >>> Stick. So > >>> roughly a 5x difference. This would get larger if resistance was > >>> figured in > >>> due to large difference between the two guages. > >>> > >>> Valhalla > >>> > >>> Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > >>> > >>> Bloomington, IN > >>> > >>> --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > >>> > >>> From: Gary H. Lucas > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > >>> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >>> Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 7:49 PM > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Will, > >>> > >>> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you > >>> can with > >>> > >>> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the > >>> business. > >>> > >>> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off > >>> inside > >>> > >>> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a > >>> cord we > >>> > >>> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So > >>> we thought > >>> > >>> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull > >>> about 28 > >>> > >>> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the > >>> ground > >>> > >>> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground > >>> wire, that's > >>> > >>> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would > >>> burn that > >>> > >>> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire > >>> current! We > >>> > >>> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire > >>> cord was > >>> > >>> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire > >>> is not > >>> > >>> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a > >>> really short > >>> > >>> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little > >>> resistance. > >>> > >>> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat > >>> generated is > >>> > >>> very small, and won't burn off the wire. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 > >>> volt short > >>> > >>> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That > >>> > >>> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would > >>> reliably > >>> > >>> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an > >>> undamaged > >>> > >>> cord. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of > >>> the weld > >>> > >>> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, > >>> a hell > >>> > >>> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps > >>> before it > >>> > >>> melts into the arc. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Gary H. Lucas > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> > >>> From: "will jones" > >>> > >>> To: > >>> > >>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM > >>> > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for > >>>>> Mig welding > >>> > >>>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material > >>>>> with the > >>> > >>>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > >>> > >>>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. > >>>> Current > >>> > >>>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. > >>>> Last I > >>> > >>>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You > >>>> are sort > >>> > >>>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in > >>>> the center > >>> > >>>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you > >>>> meed more > >>> > >>>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point > >>>> between > >>> > >>>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the > >>>> 6500K > >>> > >>>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to > >>>> reach the > >>> > >>>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel > >>>> in this > >>> > >>>> type of welding. > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.8/2224 - Release Date: 07/08/09 05:53:00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20807|20800|2009-07-08 15:23:17|building_bighouse|Re: Steel Prices|> I can say the prices were approximately the same > to slightly less than they were 4 years ago, at which > time they were about 50% higher than 5 years prior." That sentence is like a table of offsets...requires much lofting...| 20808|20808|2009-07-08 15:53:23|theboilerflue|546 days leak free|Hurray, put the boat in and no leaks not even from the shaft seal. The boat just barely cleared the shore putting it in we had to swing the stern out so the skeg wouldn't ground but it fit. The crane operator said the boat weighed a whopping 20,000 lbs no fuel or water - i though it was supposed to weigh in at 17,000? but the crane could lift it anyway and it's sitting pretty high i n the water so maybe the crane's scale is really off. When I went down to start up the engine my ground cable had mysteriously come undone, not a big problem but the people on shore were probably wondering what was wrong when i disappeared for a 10 minutes while i found a wrench and a nut and such. And some weird fuel problems most likely sucking a little air somewhere in the line i'll have to check that out - probably just a loose hose clamp or something. Anyway it caused a few problems cause i had to pop down there and pump the priming pump every once and a while while i motored over to the marina, and i hit my first sand bar (just a little) - about twenty minutes out while i was down below trying to figure out why the engine was dying but the engine had already died by then so the wind and reverse engine pulled my off pretty easy. A fun little debauckle anchoring mainly cause the engine would keep dying when i would throttle down and switch gears but got every thing down eventually, I had no chain either which might have made i easier. But I was pleased to find no leaks, my header tank over flowed a little i think , i have to move it back up high again but the engine other than all the smoke that was coming off the it (from old grime and such) and the fuel problems ran pretty good stayed at about 160 f the whole time. I'll put up some picture once i collect them from my family. So from January 3rd 2008 to now ... 546 days| 20809|20800|2009-07-08 18:12:16|Wesley Cox|Re: Steel Prices|Hmmm, we are boat builders, right? ;) ----- Original Message ----- From: building_bighouse To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 2:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Prices > I can say the prices were approximately the same > to slightly less than they were 4 years ago, at which > time they were about 50% higher than 5 years prior." That sentence is like a table of offsets...requires much lofting... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.8/2224 - Release Date: 07/08/09 05:53:00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20810|20808|2009-07-08 21:01:19|silascrosby|Re: 546 days leak free|Congratulations, Haidan! Your boat looked like a battleship coming into the mudflats at high tide skimming submerged rocks at 6 knots and heading for the rock wall by the condos in Comox. Never seen an anchor chucked over the bow to such good effect. Has anyone had their 36' Brentboat weighed ? I always have guessed about 20,000 lbs loaded. Haidan's is floating high with empty tanks and only a foamed interior. Steve| 20811|20655|2009-07-08 21:31:32|polaris041|Re: sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood|Go visit your local packing agent who deals with 3M products. they have a whole range of double sided tapes for all sorts of applications. Some are foam tapes, up to many mm thick, others are 1mm or less. Many are used for glazing in commercial applications including buildings and vehicles.(I used them in the manufacture of rotor craft rotor blades and never had a failure). Best thing is they can be applied to one surface, (frame) the backing peeled off and the glass applied. Presto it is held in place and fixed with high strength. No mess on the inside, then apply a mastic to seal the outside edge of the glass to the frame. You see this type of things on flush mounted bus/train windows. It's mess free and secure. The latest sealants are polypropelene with instant grip and holding power. pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > I had to do some window repairs and ran one over to a local auto glass shop.  He said the best sealant was polyurethane for the glass to aluminum frame I was working with. > > To clean surfaces I typically use MEK with 20% acetone.  Wipe it on, then wipe off with a clean towel.  The wipe off is important because solvents dissolve the grease, oil etc and evaporate off, leaving a residue.  If I am really worried about a residue, I follow up with a methanol wipe. > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Mon, 6/15/09, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > From: edward_stoneuk > Subject: [origamiboats] sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 2:45 PM > Hi all, > > > > Soon I will be fitting the cabin, hatches and pilot house 10mm acrylic windows. What are your favourite sealants for sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood, and what cleaners and primers have been used before applying the sealant? | 20812|20812|2009-07-09 11:43:25|Ben Okopnik|Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in origami... :)|From the category of 'Stupidly Expensive and Highly Amusing': http://www.baekdal.com/design/architecture/yacht-concept-design/ -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20813|20812|2009-07-09 12:14:07|svseeker@ymail.com|Re: Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in origami... :)|I guess just building a private boat that ostentatious was not enough, so they felt the need to actually make it a falic symbol. --Doug J --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > From the category of 'Stupidly Expensive and Highly Amusing': > > http://www.baekdal.com/design/architecture/yacht-concept-design/ > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20814|20812|2009-07-09 12:50:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in origami... :)|On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 04:13:52PM -0000, svseeker@... wrote: > I guess just building a private boat that ostentatious was not enough, > so they felt the need to actually make it a falic symbol. --Doug J I thought it was a combo of a sex toy and hand-held vaccuum cleaner, myself. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20815|20649|2009-07-09 13:35:30|will jones|Re: choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MA|So just what are the 3 - 10lb spools of .025, .030 & .035 flux core wire I have? Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --- On Wed, 7/8/09, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread ever die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2009, 2:04 PM Hi all First off Mig is not Flux Core by any measure. Second a Mig torch dramatically limits access to places that are easy to get to with a stick welder. Third Mighas limited penetration with respect to similarly priced buzz box type welders. Please note that right now I have one welder which is a Mig welder. Even with that if I went forward with a boat build I would likely have a stick welder available to me for the project. A Mig has it's uses, I don't deny that, but if you are looking to buy one welder to do the whole project I believe it would be a poor choice. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 8, 2009, at 12:48 PM, will jones wrote: > I can't imagine that there is a weld you can do with a 200-230A buzz > box that I can't do with a 160-200A MIG using flux core wire. One > can weld thinner steel, aluminum, cast iron and stainless better > with a MIG than a buzz box. MIG gives better penetration than a > buzz box of same relative Amps. > > What do you mean you can't weld outside? That is the silliest myth > I've ever read. You can readily use flux core wire. You don't need > a shielding gas, especially for plate steel. But when you need to > weld aluminum or stainless, you will want that shielding gas because > using stick pretty well gives you a poor quality weld compared to > MIG. I'd like to use some expletives to describe how poor stick is > in these situations, but this is a family group. :) > > My last project was a 38' trailer for a 33' 10,000lb sailboat with a > 4' fixed keel. Built it out of 8"-11.5lb/ft and 7"-9.8lb/ft C > channel with a nominal web thickness of 0.195-0.22" to over 0.5", on > the flange, with a 180A MIG using .035 flux core. Built it in my > driveway, outside. Even stored the steel outside. Towed the boat > fine for 194 miles. 1/4" cold rolled plate is a walk in the park > for a 175-200A MIG using 0.035 flux core. I can't imagine that > people are out there welding up the inside, bending their boat and > not back welding the outside with a buzz box. I know I would be. > So there is no great mythical power from a buzz box here over MIG. > > Another myth-you do not need meticulously clean steel. I didn't > clean a single piece. Due to the thickness I did bevel flanges. But > I would have done that for a buzz box. This is called knowing your > material and welder limitations and how to produce a good weld. Why > wouldn't you kiss the edges of your 1/4" plate steel with a grinder > when welding with a buzz box? That is just a good welding practice > and has nothing to do with the welder. Being on the ground is > great, now you have a heat sink to keep your 1/4" plate from > warping. :-) > > What, now you can't fill with a MIG. Now you can fill faster with a > stick since it is throwing more than 4x the amount of filler metal. > But then with a MIG, you aren't wasting a lot of filler metal to > fuse two pieces like you do with stick. You get the same properties > with wire and stick of the same type, you just use a lot more with > stick than with MIG to do the same job. Now there are times when a > big old glob of filler adds to structure, but a butt joint isn't one > of them. > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, David Frantz wrote: > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread > ever die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:16 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > Well good sales literature can justify anything. MIG may well be > > cost effective under the right conditions so I won't argue that. The > > problem as I see it is that MIG can't do everything required to get > > the ship in the water. In some cases, like outside this year, it > > wouldn't be successful at all. > > > > It isn't like I'm lacking MIG experience as currently it is the only > > welder I own, plus I've done industrial maintenance with one. The > > problem is initial conditions and the limited range of welds one can > > do with a MIG. > > > > To develop on the on the conditions issues with MIG, we will assume an > > outside build. First; you need calm weather with zero breeze in a > > very literal sense because it takes very little blow the shielding gas > > away. Second; you need extremely clean metal, in this regard welding > > mild steel is as tedious as welding aluminum. Joint fitup has to be > > really good. > > > > These problems should cause people to think a bit about MIGing an > > entire boat. Especially when done outside on the ground. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:51 AM, morgan33t_ior > > wrote: > > > >> I have been a way and now I am back and no I didn't fall of the > >> earth no matter how some may wish it. :) Don't sigh too much, really > >> this thread is not all that bad. People are not getting nasty, > >> which is an excellent aspect of a discussion such as this. > >> > >> I see the original poster. See we didn't forget you. The original > >> poster has decided on a welder in spite of us. If you learn the > >> technical aspects of welding, you can weld with whatever you have. > >> My goodness, even a robot can weld. > >> > >> I did have to clear up one response, really, only one: > >> > >> Gary, I did do the math correctly, really I did. It is not area > >> that is 600x times difference, it is the resistance. So 0.52/0.0008 > >> is 650 for copper. If we use 10X greater resistance for steel alloy > >> then it is 5.2/0.008 which is still 650 times greater. You can have > >> the same Amps, but not the same current density for differing wire > >> diameters. This higher resistance combined with current squared > >> gives you the 6000Kelvin you need at the weld to fuse the thin wire > >> and the base metal. These values are from standard tables. I have > >> others and other calculations where I can show that MIG actually > >> costs less than stick, but that is for another time. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary H. Lucas" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Will, > >>> Hey if you are going to disagree at least do the math right! Note > >>> in your > >>> answer below that the ohms value quoted is in Circular Mils/Foot, > >>> in other > >>> words it's expressed in cross sectional area. Now in my part of > >>> the world a > >>> 0.045" wire has a cross sectional area of almost exactly 1/9 of a > >>> 0.125" > >>> wire, not the 1/600 area you quoted. Note the feet in the value > >>> equation. > >>> Your 0.125" welding rod is about a foot long. I stated that my > >>> 0.045" was > >>> about 1/2" long, 24 times shorter. So put 9/24 and you find that > >>> the 0.045" > >>> wire has about 3/8s as much resistance as a 0.125 welding rod! > >>> > >>> This of course all makes sense. Mig welders typically operate with > >>> an ARC > >>> voltage of 16 to 18 volts. A stick welder typically has an ARC > >>> voltage of > >>> about 30 volts. So the Mig welder can deliver the same energy into > >>> the weld > >>> because it can deliver more amps at a lower voltage. > >>> > >>> This all has to make sense because the reason you use a mig welder > >>> is to > >>> weld faster. In other words you melt more pounds of steel per > >>> minute than a > >>> stick welder can. The energy per pound to melt steel is the same > >>> for either > >>> process. Well the mig welder does have an advantage here. The > >>> faster you > >>> weld the LESS heat it takes, because the base metal can't conduct > >>> it away. > >>> Of course less heat in the base metal means less warping, but then > >>> boats > >>> don't warp do they? > >>> > >>> Gary H. Lucas > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "will jones" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:00 PM > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re:choice of welder, will this thread ever > >>> die --WARNING- BORING MATH IN REPLY > >>> > >>> > >>> Current density for a weld is power per square millimeter, > >>> typically in > >>> watts per square millimeter. And power is current squared times > >>> resistance. > >>> So the current densities can not be the same for 0.045" verses > >>> 0.125". > >>> However, using your line of reasoning they would still be > >>> different. I have > >>> copper tables but no steel tables. So I am going to use copper. For > >>> comparison steel, is rated at 100 ohms-cmil/ft and copper is rated > >>> 10.09 > >>> ohms-cmil/ft. So a simple iron carbon steel has 10x more resistance > >>> than > >>> copper. Won't change the basic calculations, just the scale of the > >>> final > >>> numbers. > >>> 0.045 is close on to a 37 guage wire with a resistance of 0.52 ohm/ > >>> ft for > >>> copper. 0.125" rod is pretty close to a guage 9 wire with a > >>> resistance if > >>> 0.0008 ohms/ft for copper. There is over 600x difference in the > >>> resistance. > >>> So the current itself can't be the same for a fixed voltage. But the > >>> voltages are different for MIG and SMAW, so lets look at that and > >>> the power > >>> delivered at the end of the electrode (rod or wire). > >>> What one has to look at is the secondary supply output. The amps at > >>> the > >>> secondary will be the same at the end of electrode. On my MIG it is > >>> 180A > >>> @30V and on my 230A stick it is 230A @ 78V. > >>> I am not going to use resistance in the next determination (I've > >>> already > >>> shown its significantly different). So what is the power we are > >>> going to get > >>> at the end of the electrode. Power is what us turned into heat that > >>> melts > >>> the base metal. So the power portion is 32400 for my MIG and 52900 > >>> for my > >>> Stick. The power per square inch (no need to convert to mm since >>> just > >>> showing relative difference) is 5,062500 for MIG and 1,079592 for > >>> Stick. So > >>> roughly a 5x difference. This would get larger if resistance was > >>> figured in > >>> due to large difference between the two guages. > >>> > >>> Valhalla > >>> > >>> Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > >>> > >>> Bloomington, IN > >>> > >>> --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > >>> > >>> From: Gary H. Lucas > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] choice of welder > >>> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >>> Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 7:49 PM > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Will, > >>> > >>> You can easily get the same current density with 0.045" wire as you > >>> can with > >>> > >>> 1/8" rod. My first career was as an electrician, I grew up in the > >>> business. > >>> > >>> My dad and I were very concerned about ground wires breaking off > >>> inside > >>> > >>> portable power tools, like pistol drills. Every time we replaced a > >>> cord we > >>> > >>> would find the ground wire hanging on by a couple of strands. So > >>> we thought > >>> > >>> about ways to test them without taking the drill apart. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> We had a test bench with a 3KW resistor load bank that would pull > >>> about 28 > >>> > >>> amps. We opened up a pistol drill and cut all the strands on the > >>> ground > >>> > >>> wire except one. Then we connected the 3 KW load to the ground > >>> wire, that's > >>> > >>> 28 amps, on a #16 wire cord rated 10 amps. We figured that would > >>> burn that > >>> > >>> tiny strand right off. The single strand carried the entire > >>> current! We > >>> > >>> felt the wire at the cut and it was only slightly warm. The entire > >>> cord was > >>> > >>> getting only a tiny bit warm. HUH? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> So here is the deal, Ohm's law. The resistance of a piece of wire > >>> is not > >>> > >>> just due to it's diameter, it's also due to it's length! So a > >>> really short > >>> > >>> piece of wire, like the single strand 1/8" long has very little > >>> resistance. > >>> > >>> Hence the voltage drop x the current, which equals the heat > >>> generated is > >>> > >>> very small, and won't burn off the wire. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> We did however figure out a good test. We simply applied a 120 > >>> volt short > >>> > >>> circuit across the cord and let the 20 am circuit breaker pop. That > >>> > >>> provides a short circuit current of 1000 amps or more! This would > >>> reliably > >>> > >>> blow apart a couple of strands and open the circuit, but not an > >>> undamaged > >>> > >>> cord. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Back to the mig welder. The current is carried to within 1/2" of > >>> the weld > >>> > >>> puddle by the copper contact tube that is roughly 1/4" in diameter, > >>> a hell > >>> > >>> of a big wire. That last 1/2" easily carries hundreds of amps > >>> before it > >>> > >>> melts into the arc. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Gary H. Lucas > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> > >>> From: "will jones" > >>> > >>> To: > >>> > >>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:23 PM > >>> > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] choice of welder > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>> To get ample penetration you need the SAME current density for > >>>>> Mig welding > >>> > >>>>> that you need for stick welding of the same thickness material > >>>>> with the > >>> > >>>>> same bead size. Wires smaller than 0.045" > >>> > >>>> How are you ever going to do this? Not physically possible. > >>>> Current > >>> > >>>> density delivered is based on wire diameter for a fixed amperage. > >>>> Last I > >>> > >>>> looked a stick is about 0.125" or 3X the diameter 0f 0.045". You > >>>> are sort > >>> > >>>> of correct, a stick will throw a much higher current density in > >>>> the center > >>> > >>>> of the arc and a wider range of current area. With stick you > >>>> meed more > >>> > >>>> amps because of the diameter of the rod. This is the whole point > >>>> between > >>> > >>>> the two techniques. Takes less current with MIG to get up to the > >>>> 6500K > >>> > >>>> typical at the weld. Current really is not relevent except to > >>>> reach the > >>> > >>>> temperature to melt the base metal and supply melted filler steel > >>>> in this > >>> > >>>> type of welding. > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20816|20812|2009-07-09 15:03:20|Ray|Re: Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in origami... :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > From the category of 'Stupidly Expensive and Highly Amusing': > > http://www.baekdal.com/design/architecture/yacht-concept-design/ > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Y-U-K!!!!| 20817|20812|2009-07-09 17:26:11|David Frantz|Re: Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in origami... :)|Cool. Looks like something that could be adapted to Origami rather easily. I like the thought that with the right design it could lead to a lot more headroom in a smaller vessel. This would be useful for us tall guys. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 9, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > From the category of 'Stupidly Expensive and Highly Amusing': > > http://www.baekdal.com/design/architecture/yacht-concept-design/ > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > * > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20818|22|2009-07-09 17:34:31|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./295R-A1.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Imagiro 435. Custom design. Based on the original 39; Imagiro 229, with the addition of a counter stern. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./295R-A1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20820|20812|2009-07-10 09:53:35|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in origami... :)|AND it can go 1.6 x (LWL^.5) ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20821|20787|2009-07-10 11:36:34|Carl Anderson|Re: time has come|Haidan & Alaska Joe both getting their boat in the the water the same week!! kingsknight4life wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Congratulations Haidan! > > > > Hope the launching goes well. > > > > Two new to the water Brent Boats this week!!! > > > > Carl & Kate > > sv-mom.com > > > > Cortes Bay, BC > > > >Congrats Haidan > > Must fell awesome to be putting your boat n the water. Carl which is > the other boat? > Rowland > > | 20822|20812|2009-07-10 15:35:37|Carl Volkwein|Re: Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in origami... :)|Just the sort of thing I was thinking, only you start with a cylendar made of an oil storage tank, they come in verious sizes, most are 15' tall- long by I think 7' dia. I could either take two of those, cut the ends off and weld them together, then split them down the middle, cut out a holow "V" shape at both ends, then pull them together to form a canoe, and use the other half for deck, and cockpit, with a little rise in the forward end, and a little camber in both, then tye a dinghy upside down over the companionway, with the transom removed for storage.   The thing is I can get these "oil storage tanks" for 150.00 each. So if I screwed it up, I'd only be out 300.00      carlvolkwein --- On Thu, 7/9/09, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in origami... :) To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "Origami Boat list" Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 5:25 PM Cool. Looks like something that could be adapted to Origami rather easily. I like the thought that with the right design it could lead to a lot more headroom in a smaller vessel. This would be useful for us tall guys. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 9, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > From the category of 'Stupidly Expensive and Highly Amusing': > > http://www.baekdal. com/design/ architecture/ yacht-concept- design/ > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET > * > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20823|20812|2009-07-10 16:08:09|David Frantz|Re: Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in origami... :)|Actually you might want to leave one of the ends in place as a bulkhead. I've thought a bit about the idea of using large pipe to build part of a ship with. It is to expensive for me to experiment with so it is all thought now. Further it is probably easier to simply have the round sections you might need rolled. Unless you have a line on cheap tanks. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 10, 2009, at 3:34 PM, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Just the sort of thing I was thinking, only you start with a > cylendar made of an oil storage tank, they come in verious sizes, > most are 15' tall- long by I think 7' dia. I could either take two > of those, cut the ends off and weld them together, then split them > down the middle, cut out a holow "V" shape at both ends, then pull > them together to form a canoe, and use the other half for deck, and > cockpit, with a little rise in the forward end, and a little camber > in both, then tye a dinghy upside down over the companionway, with > the transom removed for storage. > > The thing is I can get these "oil storage tanks" for 150.00 each. > So if I screwed it up, I'd only be out 300.00 > > carlvolkwein > > --- On Thu, 7/9/09, David Frantz wrote: > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in > origami... :) > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "Origami Boat list" > Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 5:25 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cool. > > > > Looks like something that could be adapted to Origami rather easily. > > I like the thought that with the right design it could lead to a lot > > more headroom in a smaller vessel. This would be useful for us tall > > guys. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Jul 9, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Ben Okopnik > wrote: > > > >> From the category of 'Stupidly Expensive and Highly Amusing': > >> > >> http://www.baekdal com/design/ architecture/ yacht-concept- design/ > >> > >> > >> -- > >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http:// >> LinuxGazette .NET > >> * > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20824|20812|2009-07-10 16:14:09|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in origami... :)|Friends that turned a fuel tank into a tower could not use it for quite some time even after power washing with strong detergent. The VOCs from the residual fuel were just too strong. They eventually were able to install two internal floors and cap the top with a deck. R/J2 Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas Save the whales...collect the whole set. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Frantz Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 4:04 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in origami... :) Actually you might want to leave one of the ends in place as a bulkhead. I've thought a bit about the idea of using large pipe to build part of a ship with. It is to expensive for me to experiment with so it is all thought now. Further it is probably easier to simply have the round sections you might need rolled. Unless you have a line on cheap tanks. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 10, 2009, at 3:34 PM, Carl Volkwein > wrote: > Just the sort of thing I was thinking, only you start with a > cylendar made of an oil storage tank, they come in verious sizes, > most are 15' tall- long by I think 7' dia. I could either take two > of those, cut the ends off and weld them together, then split them > down the middle, cut out a holow "V" shape at both ends, then pull > them together to form a canoe, and use the other half for deck, and > cockpit, with a little rise in the forward end, and a little camber > in both, then tye a dinghy upside down over the companionway, with > the transom removed for storage. > > The thing is I can get these "oil storage tanks" for 150.00 each. > So if I screwed it up, I'd only be out 300.00 > > carlvolkwein > > --- On Thu, 7/9/09, David Frantz > wrote: > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hmm, maybe *this* can be built in > origami... :) > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com " > > Cc: "Origami Boat list" > > Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 5:25 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cool. > > > > Looks like something that could be adapted to Origami rather easily. > > I like the thought that with the right design it could lead to a lot > > more headroom in a smaller vessel. This would be useful for us tall > > guys. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Jul 9, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Ben Okopnik > wrote: > > > >> From the category of 'Stupidly Expensive and Highly Amusing': > >> > >> http://www.baekdal com/design/ architecture/ yacht-concept- design/ > >> > >> > >> -- > >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http:// >> LinuxGazette .NET > >> * > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20825|20825|2009-07-10 16:36:23|future boat owner|Big Thank You|We are back to the daily grind a long way from the big water (or any water for that matter) after a terrific two and a half weeks at the coast.We spent a week on a cruise and learn, the second round for my daughter and I, and Capt. Mac took great pains to show me how much I have yet to learn about sailing. However he's a good teacher and a good host and in the end he did say I probably won't kill anybody so I'll take that as a rousing endorsement of my skills. I want to give a big thanks for the warm welcome and generous sharing we had from the entire community of Brent Boat Owners. Brent, Paul, Haiden, Steve, and all the others who Proudly showed us their boats, current projects, and answered our questions. I especially want to thank Steve for taking us on a rousing sail on Silas Crosby. That experience was invaluable in convincing me I'm making the right choice. In similar conditions Silas Crosby felt much more seakindly than the 42' we spent the next week on. Experiencing Steve's setup for rigging and seeing it put into action has firmed up many of my thoughts on the best way to do things. I hope all this knowledge doesn't leak out again before I get to use it. Great to meet all of you and thanks again Garth| 20826|20808|2009-07-10 16:47:40|future boat owner|Re: 546 days leak free|Great news Haiden I hope it stays leak free a while longer! Hard to believe that 3 weeks ago we were looking at your "project" in the barn and now it's your own ship on the sea. Or at least on the mudflats for now. You are giving inspiration for those of us following behind. I hope it won't be too long before we can once again share a sail together. Did you break a bottle over the bow or at least share a toast? Congratulations Garth| 20827|20761|2009-07-11 17:22:17|brentswain38|Re: Controlling the trim tab|I think most water seeps in thru the ram. Extending the ram all the way out, then taping a plastic bag to the end and the autopilot solves the problem, until the bag gets holed. Puting it inside is still the best protection. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > The Chinese have a good trick for keeping water out of electronic key pads. they use it more to keep remotes clean etc but it worked really well on the tv remote on the boat. Use saran wrap/shrink wrap. also works on cell phones & you can use the key pad & they also float (learned that one the hard way...) > > Don't know how it would work on a tiller pilot with the ram tho, but might work for a gps on deck or short term until you get it set up below decks. > > > > > Re: Controlling the trim tab > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 > Fri Jul 3, 2009 2:10 pm (PDT) > > > I've never seen a tiller pilot or autohelm used at sea, which didn't eventually fillup with water in rough weather. Best get them belowdecks.One solution is to extend the ram all the way out, then duct tape plastic bags over it, so the end taped to the ram acts like a bellows. Clear plastic over the buttons lets you see what you are doing. Outside ones also tend to get stomped on when the action gets lively. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > > > I started with a used Morse cable but changed over to a length of 1 x 7 ss rigging wire inside a flexible plastic conduit.The length is about 15'. It worked fine. > > I actually don't use it much now that I have a small tiller pilot on the trim-tab. The Morse cable is probably not sensitive enough to be able to use the tillerpilot attached to the Morse. The rod linkage is more sensitive and the tillerpilot can go inside the boat attached to it. Better weather protection for the pilot. > > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "lachica31" wrote: > > > > > > Brent specifies a rod system for inside steering via the rudder trim tab. I have no argument with that as it is undoubtedly the simplest, strongest and cheapest way to do it. > > > > > > However on La Chica, where inside steering via the trim tab was not under consideration when I built her 20 years ago, Brent's nice simple system is proving difficult to fit in. So I am considering useing a Telefex Morse push-pull cable, the same sort that is used in single lever engine controls. > > > > > > These cables are available in a range of sizes and can carry loads from 30lbs up to 500lbs. My thinking is to use a cable rated for 60lbs as the trim tab loads are not high. I would put a flexible jacket on the outer end to help keep the water out of the cable. > > > > > > Question, has anyone done this? If so has it worked well? What problems if any? Can anyone think of reasons as to why this may not be a good idea? If it's not a good idea, what am I missing? And why? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > | 20828|20792|2009-07-11 17:26:22|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain 31 with aluminium cabin top and Yanmar sail drive|Well done. Nice work. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Great effort Shane. > > From experience of having built a couple boats and having 2 children; now the expensive bit starts. > But it's all part of the journey and well worth the effort. > > So you are moving the vessel to another locality for fit out or is the trailer just in preparation for that later on? > > regards pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > could resist this pic > > my two babies > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/2129904435/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc > > > > cheers > > > > shane > | 20829|20808|2009-07-11 17:37:26|theboilerflue|Re: 546 days leak free|Well I said I was going to put it in the water real soon did you not believe me? Actually I didn't paln on having it in the water that fast either but it sure speeds things along as now everything that needs to et done is very apparent. Someone did give me a bottle of champaign and wanted to break it over the bow but i wouldn't let them as i see no point in wasting a bottle of wine (yes even Baby Duck) and i didn't want a bunch of broken glass drifting around in the mud flats near my boat. So it's sitting in my sink right now that has yet to be installed but I'll get to it at one time. Was that really only three weeks ago? I've really lost track of time seemed like i had the boat ready for the water for a very long time and was delaying putting it in. Next time you're out here we'll go for a sail. -- - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "future boat owner" wrote: > > Great news Haiden > > I hope it stays leak free a while longer! Hard to believe that 3 weeks ago we were looking at your "project" in the barn and now it's your own ship on the sea. Or at least on the mudflats for now. You are giving inspiration for those of us following behind. I hope it won't be too long before we can once again share a sail together. > > Did you break a bottle over the bow or at least share a toast? > > Congratulations > > Garth > | 20830|22|2009-07-11 18:29:27|building_bighouse|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|That is a pretty hull. Greg Elliot drew an origami boat with a fantail stern once, I know you are partial to the round sterns, have you seen that boat? Will this one have the raised deck? Maybe we will revisit the raised deck issue on the 45. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > File : /Imagiro Boats./295R-A1.jpg > Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton > Description : Imagiro 435. Custom design. Based on the original 39; Imagiro 229, with the addition of a counter stern. > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./295R-A1.jpg | 20831|22|2009-07-12 00:31:44|building_bighouse|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|That's pretty. I always loved counter sterns, I just don't want to live inside one. =^) Will this one have a raised deck, a wheel house? Maybe you and I will re-negotiate a raised deck on the 45. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > File : /Imagiro Boats./295R-A1.jpg > Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton > Description : Imagiro 435. Custom design. Based on the original 39; Imagiro 229, with the addition of a counter stern. > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./295R-A1.jpg | 20832|20655|2009-07-13 06:08:41|sailparpar|Re: sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood|best stuff i have found so far, and have tried everything from sikaflex to the cheapest silicon and butyl caulking, is, not in a tube. papayas windows are all sealed using very cheap airconditioning cork tape. it comes in rolls with wax paper on both sides, so you can cut it and put it in position before taking off the outer layer of tape and placing the acrylic window. have had no leaks in the last 2 years and spent a season in monsoon in the indian ocean and the last 2 months in the red sea, beating most of the way. Locky > > I had to do some window repairs and ran one over to a local auto glass shop.  He said the best sealant was polyurethane for the glass to aluminum frame I was working with. > > To clean surfaces I typically use MEK with 20% acetone.  Wipe it on, then wipe off with a clean towel.  The wipe off is important because solvents dissolve the grease, oil etc and evaporate off, leaving a residue.  If I am really worried about a residue, I follow up with a methanol wipe. > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > --- On Mon, 6/15/09, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > From: edward_stoneuk > Subject: [origamiboats] sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 2:45 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > Soon I will be fitting the cabin, hatches and pilot house 10mm acrylic windows. What are your favourite sealants for sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood, and what cleaners and primers have been used before applying the sealant? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20833|20808|2009-07-13 10:49:21|Gary Prebble|Re: 546 days leak free|Steve... I launched in 2005 at Nanaimo empty but complete. The crane operator said his scale tops out at 20K lbs which the boat exceeded according to him to the point where he almost decided not to hoist... I would guess slightly more than 20K ... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Congratulations, Haidan! > Your boat looked like a battleship coming into the mudflats at high tide skimming submerged rocks at 6 knots and heading for the rock wall by the condos in Comox. Never seen an anchor chucked over the bow to such good effect. > Has anyone had their 36' Brentboat weighed ? I always have guessed about 20,000 lbs loaded. Haidan's is floating high with empty tanks and only a foamed interior. > Steve > | 20834|20655|2009-07-13 11:47:45|mark hamill|Re: sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood|Another pre-package window sealing option might be that black sticky butyl? tape use on windows whick comes in various thickness and widths.It has a release paper on one side.| 20835|20808|2009-07-13 15:04:57|theboilerflue|Re: 546 days leak free|well actually to be accurate I talked to the crane operator afterward and he said he had probably close to 1,000 lbs of rigging as well so that puts the boat at 19,000 lbs but that's still more than i thought. Mike seemed pretty confidant in the accuracy of his scale although it measured in 50 lbs increments, he was a little hesitant to stretch out his boom too far which is why I just squeaked into the water. I'm still wondering about where I picked up the 4,000 lbs extra I worked out the steel list and got just over 15,000 (including the 4,850 lbs of lead) so add the engine (350 lbs) three stainless tanks (200 lbs altogether) the built in fuel tank (400lbs) foam (150 cu feet at 2 lbs = 300lbs) anchors (100 lbs) 15 gallons fuel (120) maybe a few hundred pounds og wood in there now (400lbs) paint (yes the paint weighted about 750 lbs) windows and gaskets (150 lbs) anti freeze (140lbs) so that's 2,910 lbs so i guess allowing and extra pounds or so here and there that get's it pretty close to 19,000 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Steve... I launched in 2005 at Nanaimo empty but complete. The crane operator said his scale tops out at 20K lbs which the boat exceeded according to him to the point where he almost decided not to hoist... I would guess slightly more than 20K ... > > Gary > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > > > Congratulations, Haidan! > > Your boat looked like a battleship coming into the mudflats at high tide skimming submerged rocks at 6 knots and heading for the rock wall by the condos in Comox. Never seen an anchor chucked over the bow to such good effect. > > Has anyone had their 36' Brentboat weighed ? I always have guessed about 20,000 lbs loaded. Haidan's is floating high with empty tanks and only a foamed interior. > > Steve > > > | 20836|20808|2009-07-14 18:19:35|Jim Ragsdale|Re: 546 days leak free|I'm curious about the amount of paint you used. What paint and number of coats and such did you use? I'm about to paint my boat (36' origami schooner) in the next few months and am wondering about how much paint/$ I think it will cost me. On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 2:04 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > > > well actually to be accurate I talked to the crane operator afterward and > he said he had probably close to 1,000 lbs of rigging as well so that puts > the boat at 19,000 lbs but that's still more than i thought. Mike seemed > pretty confidant in the accuracy of his scale although it measured in 50 lbs > increments, he was a little hesitant to stretch out his boom too far which > is why I just squeaked into the water. I'm still wondering about where I > picked up the 4,000 lbs extra I worked out the steel list and got just over > 15,000 (including the 4,850 lbs of lead) so add the engine (350 lbs) three > stainless tanks (200 lbs altogether) the built in fuel tank (400lbs) foam > (150 cu feet at 2 lbs = 300lbs) anchors (100 lbs) 15 gallons fuel (120) > maybe a few hundred pounds og wood in there now (400lbs) paint (yes the > paint weighted about 750 lbs) windows and gaskets (150 lbs) anti freeze > (140lbs) > so that's 2,910 lbs so i guess allowing and extra pounds or so here and > there that get's it pretty close to 19,000 > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > > > Steve... I launched in 2005 at Nanaimo empty but complete. The crane > operator said his scale tops out at 20K lbs which the boat exceeded > according to him to the point where he almost decided not to hoist... I > would guess slightly more than 20K ... > > > > Gary > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > "silascrosby" wrote: > > > > > > Congratulations, Haidan! > > > Your boat looked like a battleship coming into the mudflats at high > tide skimming submerged rocks at 6 knots and heading for the rock wall by > the condos in Comox. Never seen an anchor chucked over the bow to such good > effect. > > > Has anyone had their 36' Brentboat weighed ? I always have guessed > about 20,000 lbs loaded. Haidan's is floating high with empty tanks and only > a foamed interior. > > > Steve > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20838|20808|2009-07-15 15:59:06|brianchabassol|Re: 546 days leak free|Good job Haidan, looking fwd to seeing her when I come out in Sept. My 31 is still comming along but Im keeping to smaller parts I can move, just incase we decide to relocate to Vancouver Island again. Anyway take care Brian --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > I'm curious about the amount of paint you used. What paint and number of > coats and such did you use? I'm about to paint my boat (36' origami > schooner) in the next few months and am wondering about how much paint/$ I > think it will cost me. > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 2:04 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > well actually to be accurate I talked to the crane operator afterward and > > he said he had probably close to 1,000 lbs of rigging as well so that puts > > the boat at 19,000 lbs but that's still more than i thought. Mike seemed > > pretty confidant in the accuracy of his scale although it measured in 50 lbs > > increments, he was a little hesitant to stretch out his boom too far which > > is why I just squeaked into the water. I'm still wondering about where I > > picked up the 4,000 lbs extra I worked out the steel list and got just over > > 15,000 (including the 4,850 lbs of lead) so add the engine (350 lbs) three > > stainless tanks (200 lbs altogether) the built in fuel tank (400lbs) foam > > (150 cu feet at 2 lbs = 300lbs) anchors (100 lbs) 15 gallons fuel (120) > > maybe a few hundred pounds og wood in there now (400lbs) paint (yes the > > paint weighted about 750 lbs) windows and gaskets (150 lbs) anti freeze > > (140lbs) > > so that's 2,910 lbs so i guess allowing and extra pounds or so here and > > there that get's it pretty close to 19,000 > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > > "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > > > > > Steve... I launched in 2005 at Nanaimo empty but complete. The crane > > operator said his scale tops out at 20K lbs which the boat exceeded > > according to him to the point where he almost decided not to hoist... I > > would guess slightly more than 20K ... > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > > "silascrosby" wrote: > > > > > > > > Congratulations, Haidan! > > > > Your boat looked like a battleship coming into the mudflats at high > > tide skimming submerged rocks at 6 knots and heading for the rock wall by > > the condos in Comox. Never seen an anchor chucked over the bow to such good > > effect. > > > > Has anyone had their 36' Brentboat weighed ? I always have guessed > > about 20,000 lbs loaded. Haidan's is floating high with empty tanks and only > > a foamed interior. > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20839|22|2009-07-15 17:54:38|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./995HALF-JY15-09.JPG Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : 995.R-A1. Imagiro 24 Sparks. The design, previously a small hard chine steel boat, is now adapted for the Origami method of building. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./995HALF-JY15-09.JPG To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20840|20655|2009-07-15 18:07:35|edward_stoneuk|Re: sealing acrylic windows to steel and wood|Many thanks to all of you who mailed their thoughts and experiences on sealing windows. I have ordered some Scapa 3507 bedding tape, which is a high density UV resistant single sided self-adhesive PVC foam tape, as recommended by www.hadlowmarine.co.uk. I had thought about Sika and similar sealants but tend to get in a mess with sealants so the idea of tape appealed. Best regards, Ted| 20841|20808|2009-07-16 14:12:59|theboilerflue|Re: 546 days leak free|hmm lets see I put on 9 gallons of wasser mio-zinc which cost about 120/gal. 25 gallons of wasser moisture cured coal tar polyurethane- 80/gal a gallon of wasser thinner cost ??? 4 gallons of international interthane (990 or 980? i think) - 80/gal and a couple gallons of cheap "boat paint" from home hardware 20/gal also i used the 12 gallon kit of ceramic hy-tech microspheres http://www.hytechsales.com/insulating_paint_additives.html which cost 140 with shipping. it just mixes into the paint if i did it again i would use maybe another five gallon pail and i'd get more thinner since i ran out in the middle the wasser stuff is real think and needs thinning --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > I'm curious about the amount of paint you used. What paint and number of > coats and such did you use? I'm about to paint my boat (36' origami > schooner) in the next few months and am wondering about how much paint/$ I > think it will cost me. > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 2:04 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > well actually to be accurate I talked to the crane operator afterward and > > he said he had probably close to 1,000 lbs of rigging as well so that puts > > the boat at 19,000 lbs but that's still more than i thought. Mike seemed > > pretty confidant in the accuracy of his scale although it measured in 50 lbs > > increments, he was a little hesitant to stretch out his boom too far which > > is why I just squeaked into the water. I'm still wondering about where I > > picked up the 4,000 lbs extra I worked out the steel list and got just over > > 15,000 (including the 4,850 lbs of lead) so add the engine (350 lbs) three > > stainless tanks (200 lbs altogether) the built in fuel tank (400lbs) foam > > (150 cu feet at 2 lbs = 300lbs) anchors (100 lbs) 15 gallons fuel (120) > > maybe a few hundred pounds og wood in there now (400lbs) paint (yes the > > paint weighted about 750 lbs) windows and gaskets (150 lbs) anti freeze > > (140lbs) > > so that's 2,910 lbs so i guess allowing and extra pounds or so here and > > there that get's it pretty close to 19,000 > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > > "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > > > > > Steve... I launched in 2005 at Nanaimo empty but complete. The crane > > operator said his scale tops out at 20K lbs which the boat exceeded > > according to him to the point where he almost decided not to hoist... I > > would guess slightly more than 20K ... > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > > "silascrosby" wrote: > > > > > > > > Congratulations, Haidan! > > > > Your boat looked like a battleship coming into the mudflats at high > > tide skimming submerged rocks at 6 knots and heading for the rock wall by > > the condos in Comox. Never seen an anchor chucked over the bow to such good > > effect. > > > > Has anyone had their 36' Brentboat weighed ? I always have guessed > > about 20,000 lbs loaded. Haidan's is floating high with empty tanks and only > > a foamed interior. > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20842|20808|2009-07-17 17:26:24|Jim Ragsdale|Re: 546 days leak free|Thanks for the info. Any thoughts yet on the ceramic? Did you still foam it? On 7/16/09, theboilerflue wrote: > hmm lets see > I put on 9 gallons of wasser mio-zinc which cost about 120/gal. > 25 gallons of wasser moisture cured coal tar polyurethane- 80/gal > a gallon of wasser thinner cost ??? > 4 gallons of international interthane (990 or 980? i think) - 80/gal > and a couple gallons of cheap "boat paint" from home hardware 20/gal > also i used the 12 gallon kit of ceramic hy-tech microspheres > http://www.hytechsales.com/insulating_paint_additives.html which cost 140 > with shipping. it just mixes into the paint > > if i did it again i would use maybe another five gallon pail and i'd get > more thinner since i ran out in the middle the wasser stuff is real think > and needs thinning > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: >> >> I'm curious about the amount of paint you used. What paint and number of >> coats and such did you use? I'm about to paint my boat (36' origami >> schooner) in the next few months and am wondering about how much paint/$ I >> think it will cost me. >> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 2:04 PM, theboilerflue wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > well actually to be accurate I talked to the crane operator afterward >> > and >> > he said he had probably close to 1,000 lbs of rigging as well so that >> > puts >> > the boat at 19,000 lbs but that's still more than i thought. Mike seemed >> > pretty confidant in the accuracy of his scale although it measured in 50 >> > lbs >> > increments, he was a little hesitant to stretch out his boom too far >> > which >> > is why I just squeaked into the water. I'm still wondering about where I >> > picked up the 4,000 lbs extra I worked out the steel list and got just >> > over >> > 15,000 (including the 4,850 lbs of lead) so add the engine (350 lbs) >> > three >> > stainless tanks (200 lbs altogether) the built in fuel tank (400lbs) >> > foam >> > (150 cu feet at 2 lbs = 300lbs) anchors (100 lbs) 15 gallons fuel (120) >> > maybe a few hundred pounds og wood in there now (400lbs) paint (yes the >> > paint weighted about 750 lbs) windows and gaskets (150 lbs) anti freeze >> > (140lbs) >> > so that's 2,910 lbs so i guess allowing and extra pounds or so here and >> > there that get's it pretty close to 19,000 >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , >> > "Gary Prebble" wrote: >> > > >> > > Steve... I launched in 2005 at Nanaimo empty but complete. The crane >> > operator said his scale tops out at 20K lbs which the boat exceeded >> > according to him to the point where he almost decided not to hoist... I >> > would guess slightly more than 20K ... >> > > >> > > Gary >> > > >> > > >> > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , >> > "silascrosby" wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Congratulations, Haidan! >> > > > Your boat looked like a battleship coming into the mudflats at high >> > tide skimming submerged rocks at 6 knots and heading for the rock wall >> > by >> > the condos in Comox. Never seen an anchor chucked over the bow to such >> > good >> > effect. >> > > > Has anyone had their 36' Brentboat weighed ? I always have guessed >> > about 20,000 lbs loaded. Haidan's is floating high with empty tanks and >> > only >> > a foamed interior. >> > > > Steve >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > -- Sent from my mobile device | 20843|20843|2009-07-17 20:15:55|brentswain38|Interior tabs|I was recently told of a 36 footer that had 500 tabs welded in for the interior. I normally use 36 tabs for all the big stuff and roughly the same number for the lining, a total of around 72 tabs. Once the bulkheads are in, the rest of the interior can be hung off the bulkheads on 2x3's fore and aft. 500 tabs sounds like a "Make Work and wages " project for some scammer Brent| 20844|20843|2009-07-17 22:10:54|Donal Philby|Re: Interior tabs|-----Original Message----- >From: brentswain38 >I was recently told of a 36 footer that had 500 tabs welded in for the interior. I was thinking about the tab method of attaching bulkheads recently. They could leave small hard spots. But there is another solution, perhaps. That would be to use dense foam between the ply edge and the steel (25mm or less) and then use metal-specific epoxy and FG cloth to bond the hull and ply in the traditional way. You could use the initial tabs (only a few, as Brent points out) to position the bulkhead and hold it in place, then use the foam and FG and then unbolt the tabs. This would provide a soft connect, but very strong. Both West System and System Three now offer metal specific epoxy. I've seen this method recommended for other monocoque materials such as fiberglass and ferrocement. It would provide soft strength without the problems of transverse framing that Brent has written about. If nothing else, it would be a way to create lighter weight watertight bulkheads in a steel boat. Typical epoxy has adhesive strength of 2000 lbs per sq in, so we're not really talking strength compromises here. donal| 20845|20808|2009-07-18 14:50:03|theboilerflue|Re: 546 days leak free|Well yes i still foamed i don't trust those beads that much but i figured enough for the whole boat for 140 bucks why not, Tom Mann used it and said it made a difference from the California sun pretty good - or at least made the boat a bit less like an oven, I was inside though so missed the opportunity to bake or not in the sun. The other day however i was cutting some holes in the keel tops that stick out from the hull. I was using the oxy-acet torch and the damb stuff would not preheat, maybe if i held the torch there for a couple of minutes but i wasn't interested in burning off that much paint i had to pull over the plasma cutter to do it which worked just fine but i don't like cutting holes with the plasmar as it tends to destroy the expensive tips. The stuff seems like just a really fine clay powder although I'm sure there is much more to it than that - but that's what the custom declaration form says so i don't imagine it affects the paint badly if at all except make it really thick(er) and clog the sprayer nozzle - get some thinner. I think it recommends up to a 24 mill nozzle (even that clogged with mine) which requires a larger sprayer pump to keep up with it so either roll it or find a place that'll rent you a sprayer big enough to handle that volume. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > Thanks for the info. Any thoughts yet on the ceramic? Did you still foam it? > > On 7/16/09, theboilerflue wrote: > > hmm lets see > > I put on 9 gallons of wasser mio-zinc which cost about 120/gal. > > 25 gallons of wasser moisture cured coal tar polyurethane- 80/gal > > a gallon of wasser thinner cost ??? > > 4 gallons of international interthane (990 or 980? i think) - 80/gal > > and a couple gallons of cheap "boat paint" from home hardware 20/gal > > also i used the 12 gallon kit of ceramic hy-tech microspheres > > http://www.hytechsales.com/insulating_paint_additives.html which cost 140 > > with shipping. it just mixes into the paint > > > > if i did it again i would use maybe another five gallon pail and i'd get > > more thinner since i ran out in the middle the wasser stuff is real think > > and needs thinning > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > >> > >> I'm curious about the amount of paint you used. What paint and number of > >> coats and such did you use? I'm about to paint my boat (36' origami > >> schooner) in the next few months and am wondering about how much paint/$ I > >> think it will cost me. > >> > >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 2:04 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > well actually to be accurate I talked to the crane operator afterward > >> > and > >> > he said he had probably close to 1,000 lbs of rigging as well so that > >> > puts > >> > the boat at 19,000 lbs but that's still more than i thought. Mike seemed > >> > pretty confidant in the accuracy of his scale although it measured in 50 > >> > lbs > >> > increments, he was a little hesitant to stretch out his boom too far > >> > which > >> > is why I just squeaked into the water. I'm still wondering about where I > >> > picked up the 4,000 lbs extra I worked out the steel list and got just > >> > over > >> > 15,000 (including the 4,850 lbs of lead) so add the engine (350 lbs) > >> > three > >> > stainless tanks (200 lbs altogether) the built in fuel tank (400lbs) > >> > foam > >> > (150 cu feet at 2 lbs = 300lbs) anchors (100 lbs) 15 gallons fuel (120) > >> > maybe a few hundred pounds og wood in there now (400lbs) paint (yes the > >> > paint weighted about 750 lbs) windows and gaskets (150 lbs) anti freeze > >> > (140lbs) > >> > so that's 2,910 lbs so i guess allowing and extra pounds or so here and > >> > there that get's it pretty close to 19,000 > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > >> > "Gary Prebble" wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Steve... I launched in 2005 at Nanaimo empty but complete. The crane > >> > operator said his scale tops out at 20K lbs which the boat exceeded > >> > according to him to the point where he almost decided not to hoist... I > >> > would guess slightly more than 20K ... > >> > > > >> > > Gary > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > >> > "silascrosby" wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > Congratulations, Haidan! > >> > > > Your boat looked like a battleship coming into the mudflats at high > >> > tide skimming submerged rocks at 6 knots and heading for the rock wall > >> > by > >> > the condos in Comox. Never seen an anchor chucked over the bow to such > >> > good > >> > effect. > >> > > > Has anyone had their 36' Brentboat weighed ? I always have guessed > >> > about 20,000 lbs loaded. Haidan's is floating high with empty tanks and > >> > only > >> > a foamed interior. > >> > > > Steve > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > -- > Sent from my mobile device > | 20846|20843|2009-07-18 14:52:33|theboilerflue|Re: Interior tabs|Yah lots of work including the 500 little bumbs to grind smooth on the outside --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I was recently told of a 36 footer that had 500 tabs welded in for the interior. I normally use 36 tabs for all the big stuff and roughly the same number for the lining, a total of around 72 tabs. > Once the bulkheads are in, the rest of the interior can be hung off the bulkheads on 2x3's fore and aft. 500 tabs sounds like a "Make Work and wages " project for some scammer > Brent > | 20847|20843|2009-07-18 15:26:58|brentswain38|Re: Interior tabs|That would be a lot of extra work for nothing. Keep it simple. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Donal Philby wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > >From: brentswain38 > > >I was recently told of a 36 footer that had 500 tabs welded in for the interior. > > I was thinking about the tab method of attaching bulkheads recently. They could leave small hard spots. But there is another solution, perhaps. That would be to use dense foam between the ply edge and the steel (25mm or less) and then use metal-specific epoxy and FG cloth to bond the hull and ply in the traditional way. You could use the initial tabs (only a few, as Brent points out) to position the bulkhead and hold it in place, then use the foam and FG and then unbolt the tabs. This would provide a soft connect, but very strong. Both West System and System Three now offer metal specific epoxy. I've seen this method recommended for other monocoque materials such as fiberglass and ferrocement. It would provide soft strength without the problems of transverse framing that Brent has written about. If nothing else, it would be a way to create lighter weight watertight bulkheads in a steel boat. Typical epoxy has adhesive strength of 2000 lbs per sq in, so we're not really talking strength compromises here. > > donal > | 20848|20843|2009-07-18 16:58:23|theboilerflue|Re: Interior tabs|I just attached my furing strips to the 1x1 angle irons that run the length of the hull, it was a bit or work, i used self tapping SS metal screws but had to drill a hole first anyway. left no bumbs that weren't all ready there. In places where i needed more attachment points i just put in more stiffeners which can't hurt - better than tabs that do nothing but hold some wood. The foam really does hold the wood pretty good though, the wood on the ceiling of my boat was just held up by little tabs welded to the flatbar stiffeners - not screwed i and it's not coming off or moving with out the use of a pry bar. I used way to many strips - vertical every 16 inches i think but you could make do with half that probably or put them horizontal along the stiffeners. I find i attach another piece of wood to bridge two or three of them anyway when i build onto them them. But three is about the maximum i can get the 2x2 to bend to the hull shape except mid ship where it's less curvy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Donal Philby wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > >From: brentswain38 > > >I was recently told of a 36 footer that had 500 tabs welded in for the interior. > > I was thinking about the tab method of attaching bulkheads recently. They could leave small hard spots. But there is another solution, perhaps. That would be to use dense foam between the ply edge and the steel (25mm or less) and then use metal-specific epoxy and FG cloth to bond the hull and ply in the traditional way. You could use the initial tabs (only a few, as Brent points out) to position the bulkhead and hold it in place, then use the foam and FG and then unbolt the tabs. This would provide a soft connect, but very strong. Both West System and System Three now offer metal specific epoxy. I've seen this method recommended for other monocoque materials such as fiberglass and ferrocement. It would provide soft strength without the problems of transverse framing that Brent has written about. If nothing else, it would be a way to create lighter weight watertight bulkheads in a steel boat. Typical epoxy has adhesive strength of 2000 lbs per sq in, so we're not really talking strength compromises here. > > donal > | 20849|20843|2009-07-18 17:08:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: Interior tabs|On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 10:10:53PM -0400, Donal Philby wrote: > -----Original Message----- > >From: brentswain38 > > >I was recently told of a 36 footer that had 500 tabs welded in for the interior. > > I was thinking about the tab method of attaching bulkheads recently. > They could leave small hard spots. But there is another solution, > perhaps. That would be to use dense foam between the ply edge and the > steel (25mm or less) and then use metal-specific epoxy and FG cloth to > bond the hull and ply in the traditional way. You could use the > initial tabs (only a few, as Brent points out) to position the > bulkhead and hold it in place, then use the foam and FG and then > unbolt the tabs. This would provide a soft connect, but very strong. > Both West System and System Three now offer metal specific epoxy. > I've seen this method recommended for other monocoque materials such > as fiberglass and ferrocement. It would provide soft strength without > the problems of transverse framing that Brent has written about. If > nothing else, it would be a way to create lighter weight watertight > bulkheads in a steel boat. Typical epoxy has adhesive strength of > 2000 lbs per sq in, so we're not really talking strength compromises > here. It sounds good in theory, Donal - but I can tell you, after helping a friend survey about two dozen bluewater boats, that detabbed bulkheads are a constant and serious problem in fiberglass boats at least. Also, welding on a tab is a matter of a few moments, while glassing something in is fraught with possible problems, is comparatively expensive in materials, and takes a while - and is not nearly as strong as a weld. The torsional forces that a boat in the open ocean experiences are immense, especially in bad weather - and having your bulkheads come loose could kill you, or in the best case leave your boat a barely- habitable, dangerous mess for the next thousand miles of your passage with an expensive, long repair at the end. Why compromise, especially since there's no compelling reason? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20850|20843|2009-07-18 19:08:05|James Pronk|Re: Interior tabs|Do Brent boats need bulkheads? James| 20851|20851|2009-07-19 20:33:38|vic_lub|Lead up for bid in canada|http://crownassets.pwgsc.gc.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=34616&lcn=175588&lct=L&srchtype=&so=ASC&sf=ferm-clos&lci=&str=11<nf=1&test=1 Hello I follow this forum regularly and envy the awesome work and dedication that poeple put into there boats.. I have no idea what scrap lead sells for but i thought the above link might be helpful in someone here that needs it.. Cheers Vic| 20852|20843|2009-07-19 22:29:31|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Interior tabs|What do you do when you come to the corners? Like say between the cabin top and the sides? I would think you would need a bunch of tabs there. On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 1:33 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > > > I just attached my furing strips to the 1x1 angle irons that run the length > of the hull, it was a bit or work, i used self tapping SS metal screws but > had to drill a hole first anyway. left no bumbs that weren't all ready > there. In places where i needed more attachment points i just put in more > stiffeners which can't hurt - better than tabs that do nothing but hold some > wood. The foam really does hold the wood pretty good though, the wood on the > ceiling of my boat was just held up by little tabs welded to the flatbar > stiffeners - not screwed i and it's not coming off or moving with out the > use of a pry bar. I used way to many strips - vertical every 16 inches i > think but you could make do with half that probably or put them horizontal > along the stiffeners. I find i attach another piece of wood to bridge two or > three of them anyway when i build onto them them. But three is about the > maximum i can get the 2x2 to bend to the hull shape except mid ship where > it's less curvy > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > Donal Philby wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: brentswain38 > > > > >I was recently told of a 36 footer that had 500 tabs welded in for the > interior. > > > > I was thinking about the tab method of attaching bulkheads recently. They > could leave small hard spots. But there is another solution, perhaps. That > would be to use dense foam between the ply edge and the steel (25mm or less) > and then use metal-specific epoxy and FG cloth to bond the hull and ply in > the traditional way. You could use the initial tabs (only a few, as Brent > points out) to position the bulkhead and hold it in place, then use the foam > and FG and then unbolt the tabs. This would provide a soft connect, but very > strong. Both West System and System Three now offer metal specific epoxy. > I've seen this method recommended for other monocoque materials such as > fiberglass and ferrocement. It would provide soft strength without the > problems of transverse framing that Brent has written about. If nothing > else, it would be a way to create lighter weight watertight bulkheads in a > steel boat. Typical epoxy has adhesive strength of 2000 lbs per sq in, so > we're not really talking strength compromises here. > > > > donal > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20853|20843|2009-07-20 14:02:02|theboilerflue|Re: Interior tabs|well on the cabin ceiling corners i just placed wood in between the 1" frames just like down the middle of the ceiling as well. I just placed them i didn't bother to attach them mostly because i was never planning on attaching anything heavy to the roof anyway, the foam holds them in place now just fine. Under the side decks against the hull i did the same as i had done for the ceiling. For the side deck - cabin join I attached the wood to the extra bit of side deck that stuck into the cabin an inch or so and screwed in on with self tapping metal screws - didn't even have to drill a hole for those ones since it's only 10 gauge plate. I placed the wood right up against the cabin top with a thin filling of spray foam from a can just to ensure the foam got there before the spray foamers came (helped lock it in place too). I would recommend putting the wood on top of the flat bars rather than in between like i did so there is a bigger gap for the foam - I'm just tall and so needed the headroom so didn't want to sink the ceiling down any more than I had to. On the cabin sides i just glued verticals to the hull with polyurethane construction adhesive so my side can attach to them and the window frames. I saw a great idea for handholds on another 36er down in the states he had put an aluminium pipe all the way along the cabin/side deck join with little legs every couple of feet much like the grab rail on my cabin top roof, it was just bolted through the wood attached there. It was really nice placement right at shoulder height so no funny contortions needed to walk and grab your way around the boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > What do you do when you come to the corners? Like say between the cabin top > and the sides? I would think you would need a bunch of tabs there. > On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 1:33 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > I just attached my furing strips to the 1x1 angle irons that run the length > > of the hull, it was a bit or work, i used self tapping SS metal screws but > > had to drill a hole first anyway. left no bumbs that weren't all ready > > there. In places where i needed more attachment points i just put in more > > stiffeners which can't hurt - better than tabs that do nothing but hold some > > wood. The foam really does hold the wood pretty good though, the wood on the > > ceiling of my boat was just held up by little tabs welded to the flatbar > > stiffeners - not screwed i and it's not coming off or moving with out the > > use of a pry bar. I used way to many strips - vertical every 16 inches i > > think but you could make do with half that probably or put them horizontal > > along the stiffeners. I find i attach another piece of wood to bridge two or > > three of them anyway when i build onto them them. But three is about the > > maximum i can get the 2x2 to bend to the hull shape except mid ship where > > it's less curvy > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > > Donal Philby wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > >From: brentswain38 > > > > > > >I was recently told of a 36 footer that had 500 tabs welded in for the > > interior. > > > > > > I was thinking about the tab method of attaching bulkheads recently. They > > could leave small hard spots. But there is another solution, perhaps. That > > would be to use dense foam between the ply edge and the steel (25mm or less) > > and then use metal-specific epoxy and FG cloth to bond the hull and ply in > > the traditional way. You could use the initial tabs (only a few, as Brent > > points out) to position the bulkhead and hold it in place, then use the foam > > and FG and then unbolt the tabs. This would provide a soft connect, but very > > strong. Both West System and System Three now offer metal specific epoxy. > > I've seen this method recommended for other monocoque materials such as > > fiberglass and ferrocement. It would provide soft strength without the > > problems of transverse framing that Brent has written about. If nothing > > else, it would be a way to create lighter weight watertight bulkheads in a > > steel boat. Typical epoxy has adhesive strength of 2000 lbs per sq in, so > > we're not really talking strength compromises here. > > > > > > donal > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20854|20843|2009-07-20 16:59:28|brentswain38|Re: Interior tabs|No. Bulkheads are non structural, and thus optional. They do provide a great place to hang your interior off. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Do Brent boats need bulkheads? > James > | 20855|20843|2009-07-20 17:02:18|brentswain38|Re: Interior tabs|The firring bits around the ports can be a good place to screw a longitudinal piece of wood, then the piece fort he cabin top can be screwed to it. Or you can put a tab every deck beam to screw a 1x3 along the top, then screw a smaller sq to it for the cabin sides. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > What do you do when you come to the corners? Like say between the cabin top > and the sides? I would think you would need a bunch of tabs there. > On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 1:33 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > I just attached my furing strips to the 1x1 angle irons that run the length > > of the hull, it was a bit or work, i used self tapping SS metal screws but > > had to drill a hole first anyway. left no bumbs that weren't all ready > > there. In places where i needed more attachment points i just put in more > > stiffeners which can't hurt - better than tabs that do nothing but hold some > > wood. The foam really does hold the wood pretty good though, the wood on the > > ceiling of my boat was just held up by little tabs welded to the flatbar > > stiffeners - not screwed i and it's not coming off or moving with out the > > use of a pry bar. I used way to many strips - vertical every 16 inches i > > think but you could make do with half that probably or put them horizontal > > along the stiffeners. I find i attach another piece of wood to bridge two or > > three of them anyway when i build onto them them. But three is about the > > maximum i can get the 2x2 to bend to the hull shape except mid ship where > > it's less curvy > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > > Donal Philby wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > >From: brentswain38 > > > > > > >I was recently told of a 36 footer that had 500 tabs welded in for the > > interior. > > > > > > I was thinking about the tab method of attaching bulkheads recently. They > > could leave small hard spots. But there is another solution, perhaps. That > > would be to use dense foam between the ply edge and the steel (25mm or less) > > and then use metal-specific epoxy and FG cloth to bond the hull and ply in > > the traditional way. You could use the initial tabs (only a few, as Brent > > points out) to position the bulkhead and hold it in place, then use the foam > > and FG and then unbolt the tabs. This would provide a soft connect, but very > > strong. Both West System and System Three now offer metal specific epoxy. > > I've seen this method recommended for other monocoque materials such as > > fiberglass and ferrocement. It would provide soft strength without the > > problems of transverse framing that Brent has written about. If nothing > > else, it would be a way to create lighter weight watertight bulkheads in a > > steel boat. Typical epoxy has adhesive strength of 2000 lbs per sq in, so > > we're not really talking strength compromises here. > > > > > > donal > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20856|20856|2009-07-22 08:07:35|James Pronk|Diesel engine for sale|I thought this might be of interest to someone. http://www.dieselenginemotor.com/index.php?action=listing&type=view&id=3891&show=1 If I did not have an engine already I would be looking at this one, James.| 20857|20856|2009-07-22 09:04:43|building_bighouse|Re: Diesel engine for sale|Allen Machine in Chattanooga sells new 27 horse Yanmars for $1600 or they did last time I looked. Lots of other low priced marine stuff too, they advertise extensively in Boat & Harbors. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I thought this might be of interest to someone. > > http://www.dieselenginemotor.com/index.php?action=listing&type=view&id=3891&show=1 > > If I did not have an engine already I would be looking at this one, > James. > | 20858|20858|2009-07-22 14:52:27|mauro gonzaga|Re: Brent Swain|How are longitudinals welded? Intermittent I presume,  which length and interval? If longitudinal are strong enough why do not attach transverse framing to them, as necessary, for support of interior?Mauro. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20859|20858|2009-07-22 18:10:54|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain|I weld them in with a two inch weld every 6 inches on opposite sides with 1/8th inch 7024 Tabs are all you need for bulkheads and don't have to be fitted like transverse frames, a long and tedious proccess, that does little or nothing structurally for the hull, but does add a lot of weight and expense. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > How are longitudinals welded? Intermittent I presume, which length and interval? If longitudinal are strong enough why do not attach transverse framing to them, as necessary, for support of interior?Mauro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20860|20860|2009-07-23 13:20:26|H a i d a n|(no subject)|cause you'd have to bend them all to fit which would be very fun, much easier to bend a big long piece of angle as you go rather than little one foot pieces. -- Powered By Outblaze| 20861|20861|2009-07-23 19:29:24|Aaron|Mast Building|Any Ideas I still have not understood the issue of mast stability. I making the choice to build my mast with aluminum. My question is wether to use 5" Sch. 40 (.256 wall and 5.563 OD) or 6" (.280 wall and 6.625 od)There is only about 50 lbs difference in weight. I was thinking about adding a 3.5"od sch 40 .190 wall half pipe to the length of the mast to create a bit of an air foil which could also have lines or electrical running inside. The sail track would be attached to the half pipe Hopefully I am not making to much out of this. Aaron| 20862|20862|2009-07-24 22:43:37|knutfgarshol|Steel plate thickness for BS 36'|Can somebody help me out (so I do not have to spend hours going through posts....): Steel plate thickness 36" hull, deck and single keel (if built according to Brent's design)? Thanks!| 20863|22|2009-07-25 13:22:21|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./995SAIL-JY25-09.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : TYD#995 Imagiro 24. Sail Plan You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./995SAIL-JY25-09.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20864|20862|2009-07-25 14:29:23|brentswain38|Re: Steel plate thickness for BS 36'|1/8th inch decks , 3/16th hull, 1/4 inch keel sides, 1/2 inch keel bottom and leading edge. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > Can somebody help me out (so I do not have to spend hours going through posts....): > > Steel plate thickness 36" hull, deck and single keel (if built according to Brent's design)? > > Thanks! > | 20865|20861|2009-07-25 15:13:49|brentswain38|Re: Mast Building|6 inch sch 40 would work well. Skip the add ons. It's not worth the effort, expense, weight and time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > Any Ideas > I still have not understood the issue of mast stability. > I making the choice to build my mast with aluminum. My question is wether to use 5" Sch. 40 (.256 wall and 5.563 OD) or 6" (.280 wall and 6.625 od)There is only about 50 lbs difference in weight. I was thinking about adding a 3.5"od sch 40 .190 wall half pipe to the length of the mast to create a bit of an air foil which could also have lines or electrical running inside. The sail track would be attached to the half pipe > Hopefully I am not making to much out of this. > Aaron > | 20866|20862|2009-07-25 15:56:38|Knut F Garshol|Re: Steel plate thickness for BS 36'|Thanks Brent for the quick reply! Great help as always. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel plate thickness for BS 36' 1/8th inch decks , 3/16th hull, 1/4 inch keel sides, 1/2 inch keel bottom and leading edge. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > Can somebody help me out (so I do not have to spend hours going through posts....): > > Steel plate thickness 36" hull, deck and single keel (if built according to Brent's design)? > > Thanks! > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20867|20867|2009-07-29 12:01:31|Alex Christie|BS 36 stuff for sale|Hi All, I've got various BS 36 stuff for sale: --4 Sails (Jib, Storms'l, 2 gennies) --Stainless tube for propane gas line --Lots of stainless tubing pieces of various sizes and lengths --Stainless steel sheet for trim tab --Stainless rod for trim tab shaft --AC Welder 225 GLM --4 boxes of 7024 Rod, unopened --4 boxes 6011 Rod, unopened --Grinder --Bronze Prop Contact me for details and viewing in Victoria BC, at achristie@... Cheers, Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20868|20868|2009-07-29 14:23:40|brentswain38|Consumerism|For those who advocate throwing a lot of money at a boat, I just thought of a good definition of consumerism. It is the science of working 60 hour weeks for a lifetime, to pay for " Time saving" devices. Brent| 20869|20868|2009-07-29 14:42:29|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Consumerism|YES! brentswain38 wrote: > > > For those who advocate throwing a lot of money at a boat, I just > thought of a good definition of consumerism. It is the science of > working 60 hour weeks for a lifetime, to pay for " Time saving" devices. > Brent > | 20870|20868|2009-07-29 15:22:28|prairiemaidca|Consumerism|Reminds me of the old story of the fisherman meeting the Wall Street tycoon on the beach as he has just landed his boat. Para phrased, The millionaire basically points out to the fisherman that if he was to stay out later and catch more fish he would have more money and could have all the good things in life. He replies I catch enough to live and feed my family, I go for a drink after with my friends, play my guitar and go home to my lovely wife. The millionaire is quick to point out that he could use the extra money to buy more boats and soon he would be a corporation and be on wall street like him and have time to come down here and sit on the beach. The fisherman just looks around at his surroundings and smiles. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 20871|20868|2009-07-29 16:15:21|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: Consumerism|Re stuff: 1.25 inch X 3/16 X 8 foot length Alum. T track from Ocean Pacific in Campbell River $320, Defender in USA east coast $104, Parker Marine Iin Courtenay, $120.00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20872|22|2009-07-29 18:02:03|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./295pelev-JY29-09.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : 295 Imagiro 435. Elevation You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./295pelev-JY29-09.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20873|20868|2009-07-30 14:00:28|brentswain38|Re: Consumerism|After you buy it, put the higher price tag on and it will perform better. ( some seem to actually believe that) Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ian and Jean Campbell" wrote: > > Re stuff: > > 1.25 inch X 3/16 X 8 foot length Alum. T track from Ocean Pacific in Campbell River $320, Defender in USA east coast $104, Parker Marine Iin Courtenay, $120.00 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20874|20874|2009-07-31 02:08:40|theboilerflue|Purple Haze!|Eventually after putting up with all these little bits of foam floating around when I brushed up against the walls, or ceiling or just walked too close to it, I put a layer of paint down to seal it all nicely. As prophesized the free mix of all paint turns into this weird pinky purple. which may expedite my putting up of the siding and head liner.| 20875|20874|2009-07-31 02:13:28|theboilerflue|Re: Purple Haze!|Oh yah I sprayed it with this paint sprayer i got at crappy tire just hooked into the generator. It worked pretty good, much much easier than painting with a brush over all those bumpy foam bits. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Eventually after putting up with all these little bits of foam floating around when I brushed up against the walls, or ceiling or just walked too close to it, I put a layer of paint down to seal it all nicely. As prophesized the free mix of all paint turns into this weird pinky purple. which may expedite my putting up of the siding and head liner. > | 20876|20874|2009-07-31 14:06:12|brentswain38|Re: Purple Haze!|Being free ,you could cover it with a coat of white, or something less ugly . With one coat on already , it will take far less for a second coat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Oh yah I sprayed it with this paint sprayer i got at crappy tire just hooked into the generator. It worked pretty good, much much easier than painting with a brush over all those bumpy foam bits. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Eventually after putting up with all these little bits of foam floating around when I brushed up against the walls, or ceiling or just walked too close to it, I put a layer of paint down to seal it all nicely. As prophesized the free mix of all paint turns into this weird pinky purple. which may expedite my putting up of the siding and head liner. > > > | 20877|20877|2009-07-31 19:59:28|brianchabassol|Ganley Snowbird|Hi Brent, I was wondering what your thoughts were on the Ganley Snowbird. One has come up locally and it is in very good condition at a more than reasonable price. It is rigged as a junk with a keel stepped mast, I was wondering your thoughts on the junk rig. Thanks Brian Chabassol| 20878|20877|2009-08-01 14:12:43|brentswain38|Re: Ganley Snowbird|Ganly snowbird is an excellent boat, the one that first got me interested in steel boats back in 73. Go for it. The junk rig is an abortion, horrendously complex and chafe prone, hopeless to windward. They only go to windward at warp speed, speed only attainable by warping the truth. Take what junk rig enthusiasts tell you with a huge grain of salt, extreme bullshit about their performance seems to be an inherent part of their culture. Put a proper rig on the snowbird and you will have an excellent, practical boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brianchabassol" wrote: > > Hi Brent, I was wondering what your thoughts were on the Ganley Snowbird. One has come up locally and it is in very good condition at a more than reasonable price. It is rigged as a junk with a keel stepped mast, I was wondering your thoughts on the junk rig. > Thanks > Brian Chabassol > | 20879|20877|2009-08-01 17:51:20|lachica31|Re: Ganley Snowbird|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Ganly snowbird is an excellent boat, the one that first got me interested in steel boats back in 73. > Go for it. > The junk rig is an abortion, horrendously complex and chafe prone, hopeless to windward. They only go to windward at warp speed, speed only attainable by warping the truth. Take what junk rig enthusiasts tell you with a huge grain of salt, extreme bullshit about their performance seems to be an inherent part of their culture. > Put a proper rig on the snowbird and you will have an excellent, practical boat. > Brent Hi Brent, I have a wealth of respect for your achievements and what you say and the advice you give is mostly very sound and I agree with many of your view points. I have also implemented many of you suggestions and ideas in La Chica. (I also have the plans for your BS36 a project that will happen in the not to distant future). However when it comes to Junk rigs, your views are very, very out of date. What you have said does indeed apply to most of the junk rigged boats that had flat sails. ie. the sails have no camber (and they are the majority of junk rigged boats at the moment). Modern junk rigged boats are a rather different kettle of fish, their sails have camber and some of them are quite capable of giving a Bermuda rigged boat a run for there money. (no I am talking cruising boats of the type we have here _not_ hot shot racers). To prove my point, I have uploaded some photos of boats belong to friends of mine. In particular Arne's Johanna and Slieve's Poppy will likely keep up or even sail away from most boats to the windward (they are well sailed by people who know what they are doing.) once the sheets are eased, very few bermuda rigged boats will keep up with them unless they fly a spinnaker. Poppy is a Westerly Konsort. She raced in the last Isle of Wright round the island race and cam e 236 out of 839 boats. She beat the other Konsorts in the race. She had some problems not related (She had flooding and had taken on about half a ton of water) to her rig and had to heave to for 20 minutes to sort it out (pump out). Despite this they still placed third way down in the fleet. They almost certainly would have been in the top 10% if they had not had this problem. Also note, the boat (Poppy) was sailed by three gents all 60+. I have uploaded some photo's that can be seen in the photo's section under modern Junks or just use the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1410021652/pic/list Just so that you know these boats are real and do exist. To the best of my knowledge, no modern junks rigged boats are currently on the water in Canada, so you are unlikely to have encountered one yet. Regards, Paul Thompson| 20880|20877|2009-08-01 20:24:40|kingsknight4life|Re: Ganley Snowbird|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Ganly snowbird is an excellent boat, the one that first got me interested in steel boats back in 73. > Go for it. >... > Brent > > Brent, do you know anything or have any thoughts on the Ganley Shadow? Rowland| 20881|20881|2009-08-02 04:32:03|Alex|Video of Moonflower of Moab Swain 36|Just a short video of Kate and Carl's boat, MOM, at anchor in Oak Bay, for your viewing interest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQybpCTCmeg They bought a trysail off me and we had a great "gam" in the cockpit in the setting sun. Their boat is very interesting, a true example of the versatility possible in creating your own boat from Brent's plans. Alex| 20882|20877|2009-08-02 06:09:29|Wally Paine|Re: Ganley Snowbird|The thing about junk rigs is that they are mostly designed, built and sailed by their owners Nothing wrong with that.   So they vary a lot. The best are good cruising rigs and the worst are much as Brent describes.  Also it is my opinion that heavy displacement yachts may lack sufficient length to carry an adequate junk rig  and will find themselves under canvassed.  Wally Paine  --- On Sat, 1/8/09, lachica31 wrote: From: lachica31 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ganley Snowbird To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 1 August, 2009, 10:51 PM   --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Ganly snowbird is an excellent boat, the one that first got me interested in steel boats back in 73. > Go for it. > The junk rig is an abortion, horrendously complex and chafe prone, hopeless to windward. They only go to windward at warp speed, speed only attainable by warping the truth. Take what junk rig enthusiasts tell you with a huge grain of salt, extreme bullshit about their performance seems to be an inherent part of their culture. > Put a proper rig on the snowbird and you will have an excellent, practical boat. > Brent Hi Brent, I have a wealth of respect for your achievements and what you say and the advice you give is mostly very sound and I agree with many of your view points. I have also implemented many of you suggestions and ideas in La Chica. (I also have the plans for your BS36 a project that will happen in the not to distant future). However when it comes to Junk rigs, your views are very, very out of date. What you have said does indeed apply to most of the junk rigged boats that had flat sails. ie. the sails have no camber (and they are the majority of junk rigged boats at the moment). Modern junk rigged boats are a rather different kettle of fish, their sails have camber and some of them are quite capable of giving a Bermuda rigged boat a run for there money. (no I am talking cruising boats of the type we have here _not_ hot shot racers). To prove my point, I have uploaded some photos of boats belong to friends of mine. In particular Arne's Johanna and Slieve's Poppy will likely keep up or even sail away from most boats to the windward (they are well sailed by people who know what they are doing.) once the sheets are eased, very few bermuda rigged boats will keep up with them unless they fly a spinnaker. Poppy is a Westerly Konsort. She raced in the last Isle of Wright round the island race and cam e 236 out of 839 boats. She beat the other Konsorts in the race. She had some problems not related (She had flooding and had taken on about half a ton of water) to her rig and had to heave to for 20 minutes to sort it out (pump out). Despite this they still placed third way down in the fleet. They almost certainly would have been in the top 10% if they had not had this problem. Also note, the boat (Poppy) was sailed by three gents all 60+. I have uploaded some photo's that can be seen in the photo's section under modern Junks or just use the link: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/origamiboa ts/photos/ album/1410021652 /pic/list Just so that you know these boats are real and do exist. To the best of my knowledge, no modern junks rigged boats are currently on the water in Canada, so you are unlikely to have encountered one yet. Regards, Paul Thompson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20883|20883|2009-08-02 13:00:55|prairiemaidca|M.o M. Flag|Hey Kate and Carl. I'm curious as to the flag you have flying from your mast in the home page picture, I can't make out what it is. Your boat looks great! Hopefully one day Prairie Maid will sit pretty in the salt. We are just finishing up the fridge and galley area. Martin.| 20884|20883|2009-08-02 13:21:33|Carl Anderson|Re: M.o M. Flag|Hi All, Kate here of MOM [aka Moonflower of Moab] & Carl. Alex, it was great seeing you & hearing of your latest adventures. & Thanks for the video. So FUN! Ah yes, the flag. We winter MOM on Lopez Island, San Juan Islands, WA. & on Lopez, some guy has made up these Earth Flags. When you're on Lopez, everyone flies these flags. Carl says, it's a courtesy flag since we're all just visitors here [on Earth, that is.] Thank you, Martin, for the praise. We've just come back south from adventures on MOM way up to the Broughtons, Alert Bay, & islands there. We sailed down Johnstone in following seas. We got to see Haiden in Comox just after he launched his new Brent Boat - SV-Exit, & more to come in detail when we up date the web site. All in all, MOM is a wonderful sailing vessel, & such a comfortable home. We are SO glad [at this point in the game] that we've built her. Yes, Martin, you'll be so GLAD you put in a fridge. We've still got frozen meat from when we started over a month ago. BUT the best thing was having a COLD drink when it got so HOT in Nanaimo. We look forward to meeting those who are able to have the guts & perseverance to complete these tough beasts of the sea! k prairiemaidca wrote: > > > Hey Kate and Carl. I'm curious as to the flag you have flying from > your mast in the home page picture, I can't make out what it is. Your > boat looks great! Hopefully one day Prairie Maid will sit pretty in > the salt. We are just finishing up the fridge and galley area. Martin. > > | 20885|20877|2009-08-02 17:54:38|brentswain38|Re: Ganley Snowbird|I don't now a lot about them, but I believe one was built behind Capitol Iron in Victoria in the 80s. Nice looking boat, if I remember correctly. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Ganly snowbird is an excellent boat, the one that first got me interested in steel boats back in 73. > > Go for it. > >... > > Brent > > > > > Brent, > do you know anything or have any thoughts on the Ganley Shadow? > Rowland > | 20886|20877|2009-08-02 18:00:08|brentswain38|Re: Ganley Snowbird|Ganley had a lot of hands on experience both building and sailing his boats.Unlike some designers, he got his hands dirty. Thus they are well built and designed, very practical boats. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > I don't now a lot about them, but I believe one was built behind Capitol Iron in Victoria in the 80s. Nice looking boat, if I remember correctly. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > Ganly snowbird is an excellent boat, the one that first got me interested in steel boats back in 73. > > > Go for it. > > >... > > > Brent > > > > > > > > Brent, > > do you know anything or have any thoughts on the Ganley Shadow? > > Rowland > > > | 20887|20877|2009-08-02 18:22:44|lachica31|Re: Ganley Snowbird|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > The thing about junk rigs is that they are mostly designed, built and sailed by their owners Nothing wrong with that.   So they vary a lot. The best are good cruising rigs and the worst are much as Brent describes.  > Also it is my opinion that heavy displacement yachts may lack sufficient length to carry an adequate junk rig  and will find themselves under canvassed.  > Wally Paine  You get abortions in owner built Junk rigged boats just like you get in any other rig but that does not mean you can make blanket statements to the effect that Junk rigs are bad any more than you can make the same statement about other rigs. Getting enough sail area on a heavy displacement boat can be challenge under any rig. However with good design, it can be done. Look at the photo of Sampson. That boat is very heavy but she is slipping along just fine in a force 3 breeze. At the end of the day people put the rig they like on their boats and that is fine. But just because you have a different rig or have had a bad experience with an example of another rig does not mean that all rigs that are not what you have are bad. And just because you have not had any experience of another rig, Junk rig or any other does not mean it is bad. Regards, Paul Thompson| 20888|22|2009-08-05 11:40:08|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Imagiro Boats./995GA-AT05-09.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Tyd#995. Imagiro 24. General Arrangement Plan. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Imagiro%20Boats./995GA-AT05-09.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 20889|20877|2009-08-06 19:51:40|brentswain38|Re: Ganley Snowbird|Junks are by their very nature , horrendously complex. Friends with a 44 footer tell me they have over 350 feet of running rigging. Put the mast to windward and you get a good sail shape. Put the mast to leeward and you have a horribly innefficient sail shape which bends the wrong way. So how do you get the mast to switch sides underway? I've heard a lot of stories about more efficient junks for decades , but have never seen one. I've sailed cicles around junks, who's owners claimed were very efficient to windward , with many witnesses , only to have the junk owners to claim to have sailed circles around me, while showing videos of me sailing circles around them. This has been standard practise amoung many junk fanatics I've known. They sail to windward at "Warp speed", speed only attainable by warping the truth. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > > > The thing about junk rigs is that they are mostly designed, built and sailed by their owners Nothing wrong with that.   So they vary a lot. The best are good cruising rigs and the worst are much as Brent describes.  > > Also it is my opinion that heavy displacement yachts may lack sufficient length to carry an adequate junk rig  and will find themselves under canvassed.  > > Wally Paine  > > You get abortions in owner built Junk rigged boats just like you get in any other rig but that does not mean you can make blanket statements to the effect that Junk rigs are bad any more than you can make the same statement about other rigs. > > Getting enough sail area on a heavy displacement boat can be challenge under any rig. However with good design, it can be done. Look at the photo of Sampson. That boat is very heavy but she is slipping along just fine in a force 3 breeze. > > At the end of the day people put the rig they like on their boats and that is fine. But just because you have a different rig or have had a bad experience with an example of another rig does not mean that all rigs that are not what you have are bad. > > And just because you have not had any experience of another rig, Junk rig or any other does not mean it is bad. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > | 20890|20890|2009-08-07 18:29:57|brentswain38|Transom trim|I just had a visit with a guy with a Waterline 33 footer . He said he had major problems with paint being chipped off the corners of the transom. Being a reversed transom, I could see how it was far more likely to be chipped by a dinghy than a more traditional transom. However, regardless of what kind of transom you have, it is not a bad idea to run a few downhand passes of stainless welding down the corners so there is stainless showing instead . No more than a few minutes work and a bit of grinding her flush. There have been ocasional chips on my more traditional transom, but far less than would be the case with a reversed transom. In that case, making a fair bit of the pointy end of stainless plate may well be justified. Brent Brent| 20891|20891|2009-08-08 01:37:50|briannarobertsers|New Mix of Freebies - August 08|Dear Members As a special treat for members, I have found another great page full of free-stuff you can collect INSTANTLY! There is so much to grab, its definately worth the visit. Simply click on the link below and it will take you directly to this amazing NEW freebie page! http://groups.google.com/group/megafreebies/web/freebies-august-08 Enjoy!| 20892|20892|2009-08-08 20:47:57|theboilerflue|Mast stepped|I gathered up all the Brent boaters from arounf the marina today and we all managed to raise my mast at the gov. dock today. struggled with the thing for about an hour or so but we got it up there it's all tied up with 1/2" line and i'll measure and get the wire rigging made up on monday. I put up a picture of the boat with the mast up. The mast is leaning a little too far aft but I'll have to adjust that with a come-along. Then boom, roller furler and sails and i'm good to go.| 20893|20892|2009-08-08 23:07:19|Carl Anderson|Re: Mast stepped|Congrats! We'll see ya sailin' soon!!!! Love ya, Kate n' Carl sv-mom.com theboilerflue wrote: > > > I gathered up all the Brent boaters from arounf the marina today and > we all managed to raise my mast at the gov. dock today. struggled with > the thing for about an hour or so but we got it up there it's all tied > up with 1/2" line and i'll measure and get the wire rigging made up on > monday. I put up a picture of the boat with the mast up. The mast is > leaning a little too far aft but I'll have to adjust that with a > come-along. Then boom, roller furler and sails and i'm good to go. > > | 20894|20894|2009-08-10 02:11:41|briannarobertsers|New Mix of Free Stuff (10th August)|Dear Members As a special treat for members, I have found another great page full of free-stuff you can collect INSTANTLY! There is so much to grab, its definately worth the visit. Simply click on the link below and it will take you directly to this amazing NEW freebie page! http://groups.google.com/group/freebiestoday/web/freebies-august-10 Enjoy!| 20895|20895|2009-08-11 15:17:54|Ben Okopnik|Solar energy: Grid parity|Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost of electric generation: http://www.good.is/post/countdown-to-%e2%80%9cgrid-parity%e2%80%9d/ In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around 2015. This is based on data from recent research, and independently confirmed by the US Department of Energy. My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're consuming. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20896|20896|2009-08-11 15:46:08|brianchabassol|Snowbird update|After much consideration I decided to pass on the snowbird. The design and hull were top notch but the junk rig and a lot of smaller issues found in the survey made up my mind. To bad , for the right price it would be a good project but it was quiet a bit above project prices. Maby next time Thanks to all for your input Brian| 20897|20895|2009-08-11 17:02:17|David Frantz|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Hi Ben; I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is an allied science of optics they often have some very interesting articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being published require additional processing of the modules. The other scarry part here is that if the present administration stays in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to keep the price high. In other words I have this fear there will be a lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead to another big government program to address that. For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the left so funding the research is a problem. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 11, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost > of > electric generation: > > http://www.good.is/post/countdown-to-%e2%80%9cgrid-parity%e2%80%9d/ > > In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around > 2015. > This is based on data from recent research, and independently > confirmed > by the US Department of Energy. > > My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come > crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're > investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're consuming. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > * > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20898|20895|2009-08-11 17:11:46|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Come up with cold fusion and almost all the arguements against nuclear power dissapear, at least from this staunch lifetime leftie. Go for a sail and buy your panels elsewhere if protectionism becomes a problem. That is what cruising boats are for. Get rid of the control freak thinking of the right wingers, re border control-cater to the fear industry, and you will be freeer to do that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Ben; > > I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is an > allied science of optics they often have some very interesting > articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in > output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it > might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being > published require additional processing of the modules. > > The other scarry part here is that if the present administration stays > in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to > keep the price high. In other words I have this fear there will be a > lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead to > another big government program to address that. > > For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in > advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech > floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion > to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the > left so funding the research is a problem. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Aug 11, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost > > of > > electric generation: > > > > http://www.good.is/post/countdown-to-%c3%a2%c2%80%c2%9cgrid-parity%c3%a2%c2%80%c2%9d/ > > > > In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around > > 2015. > > This is based on data from recent research, and independently > > confirmed > > by the US Department of Energy. > > > > My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come > > crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're > > investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're consuming. :) > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > > * > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 20899|20895|2009-08-11 17:12:46|Knut F Garshol|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Being the "stupid" Norwegian in the group and lacking understanding of the "stupid" American politics (I am NOT inviting another political rant session), may be you can explain to me WHY if the "present administration stays in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to keep the price high" when the stated aim of your current President and his administration is to get more use of clean energy (like solar power)? Higher price would not increase the use of such power? What in the world is the logic behind such a statement? rgds Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Frantz Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 5:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: Origami Boat list Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity Hi Ben; I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is an allied science of optics they often have some very interesting articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being published require additional processing of the modules. The other scarry part here is that if the present administration stays in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to keep the price high. In other words I have this fear there will be a lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead to another big government program to address that. For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the left so funding the research is a problem. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 11, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ben Okopnik net> wrote: > Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost > of > electric generation: > > http://www.good. is/post/countdown-to-"grid-parity"/ > > In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around > 2015. > This is based on data from recent research, and independently > confirmed > by the US Department of Energy. > > My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come > crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're > investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're consuming. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET > * > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20900|20895|2009-08-11 17:49:48|Carl Volkwein|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Has anybody thought about or designed a workable battery charger made from a bicycle and an auto alternator? you could ride the bike when in port, and charge your battery any time you were in the cockpit, making it into a sort of exercise bike.    You'd need some way to hold it up rite and stable, some sort of rollers to transfer power from the tires and belt it to a big truck alternator, but hey, free power, and an exersise machine. carlvolkwein --- On Tue, 8/11/09, Knut F Garshol wrote: From: Knut F Garshol Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 5:11 PM   Being the "stupid" Norwegian in the group and lacking understanding of the "stupid" American politics (I am NOT inviting another political rant session), may be you can explain to me WHY if the "present administration stays in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to keep the price high" when the stated aim of your current President and his administration is to get more use of clean energy (like solar power)? Higher price would not increase the use of such power? What in the world is the logic behind such a statement? rgds Knut _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of David Frantz Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 5:01 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Cc: Origami Boat list Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity Hi Ben; I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is an allied science of optics they often have some very interesting articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being published require additional processing of the modules. The other scarry part here is that if the present administration stays in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to keep the price high. In other words I have this fear there will be a lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead to another big government program to address that. For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the left so funding the research is a problem. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 11, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ben Okopnik net> wrote: > Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost > of > electric generation: > > http://www.good. is/post/countdown- to-"grid- parity"/ > > In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around > 2015. > This is based on data from recent research, and independently > confirmed > by the US Department of Energy. > > My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come > crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're > investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're consuming. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET > * > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20901|20895|2009-08-11 18:22:23|David Frantz|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Hi Brent; Actually I wasn't thinking about cold fusion but that has possibilities too. Contray to popular belief research really never stopped with regard to cold fusion. The government sponsored research has gone on at China Lake with some interesting reports being published. As to what I had in mind maybe I can dig up some links later. Google sponsored a very interesting talk on one process. As to the control freak thinking we currently have a very left wing leaning government that wants controls over every bit of our lives. The right simply wanted to keep the plantary scum out of the country. So you really have to ask which is worst. You are right though better to spend as much time as possible away and live in peace with your surroundings. My problem is it took me a long time ti realize this and time grows short. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 11, 2009, at 5:11 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Come up with cold fusion and almost all the arguements against > nuclear power dissapear, at least from this staunch lifetime leftie. > Go for a sail and buy your panels elsewhere if protectionism becomes > a problem. That is what cruising boats are for. > Get rid of the control freak thinking of the right wingers, re > border control-cater to the fear industry, and you will be freeer to > do that. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > wrote: >> >> Hi Ben; >> >> I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is >> an >> allied science of optics they often have some very interesting >> articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in >> output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it >> might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being >> published require additional processing of the modules. >> >> The other scarry part here is that if the present administration >> stays >> in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to >> keep the price high. In other words I have this fear there will >> be a >> lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead >> to >> another big government program to address that. >> >> For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in >> advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech >> floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion >> to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the >> left so funding the research is a problem. >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Aug 11, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: >> >>> Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost >>> of >>> electric generation: >>> >>> http://www.good.is/post/countdown-to-%e2%80%9cgrid-parity%e2%80%9d/ >>> >>> In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around >>> 2015. >>> This is based on data from recent research, and independently >>> confirmed >>> by the US Department of Energy. >>> >>> My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come >>> crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're >>> investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're >>> consuming. :) >>> >>> >>> -- >>> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET >>> * >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>> unsubscribe@... >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20902|20895|2009-08-11 18:32:50|David Frantz|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Hi Knut; I did not state that well, but what I meant was that the price of such panels might not come down as many expect due to medling in the free market. Further the current administration seems to favor expensive energy to the detriment of the guy that needs that energy. If you are really concerned about energy, carbon emmissions and the like then you need to support much lower cost alternatives. In part this means moving manufacturing off US soil. As a side note I'm not a supporter of the global warming crowd. Frankly there is no sound evidence that this research has come to the right conclusion. We certainly have man made issues on the planet but there is a total lack of credible proof that global warming is a fact. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 11, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Knut F Garshol wrote: > Being the "stupid" Norwegian in the group and lacking understanding > of the > "stupid" American politics (I am NOT inviting another political rant > session), may be you can explain to me WHY if the "present > administration > stays in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in > place to > keep the price high" when the stated aim of your current President > and his > administration is to get more use of clean energy (like solar > power)? Higher > price would not increase the use of such power? What in the world is > the > logic behind such a statement? > > > > rgds > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of David Frantz > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 5:01 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Cc: Origami Boat list > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity > > > > > > Hi Ben; > > I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is an > allied science of optics they often have some very interesting > articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in > output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it > might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being > published require additional processing of the modules. > > The other scarry part here is that if the present administration stays > in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to > keep the price high. In other words I have this fear there will be a > lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead to > another big government program to address that. > > For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in > advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech > floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion > to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the > left so funding the research is a problem. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Aug 11, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ben Okopnik net> wrote: > >> Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost >> of >> electric generation: >> >> http://www.good. > is/post/countdown-to-"grid-parity"/ >> >> In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around >> 2015. >> This is based on data from recent research, and independently >> confirmed >> by the US Department of Energy. >> >> My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come >> crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're >> investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're consuming. :) >> >> >> -- >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET >> * >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >> ! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20903|20895|2009-08-11 18:45:18|David Frantz|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Yeah I've thought about it. The thinking due to lack of a boat ;) What you suggest is very possible and I actually thought about building such into a bulkhead doorway. As to the generator/alternator realize that as a human you would do real good to produce about 1/3 rd horse power so the generator need not be large. As to the solution choosen my initial thinking is that a DC generator would be the easy approach. In my case the idea came about due to the need to exercise. I would imagine the cockpit approach would work as long as you keep it out of the way. It would probably work as an way to recover a dead battery if a couple of people where on board. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 11, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Has anybody thought about or designed a workable battery charger > made from a bicycle > and an auto alternator? you could ride the bike when in port, and > charge your battery any time you were in the cockpit, making it into > a sort of exercise bike. > You'd need some way to hold it up rite and stable, some sort of > rollers to transfer power from the tires and belt it to a big truck > alternator, but hey, free power, and an exersise machine. > carlvolkwein > --- On Tue, 8/11/09, Knut F Garshol wrote: > > From: Knut F Garshol > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 5:11 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > Being the "stupid" Norwegian in the group and > lacking understanding of the > > "stupid" American politics (I am NOT inviting another political rant > > session), may be you can explain to me WHY if the "present > administration > > stays in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in > place to > > keep the price high" when the stated aim of your current President > and his > > administration is to get more use of clean energy (like solar > power)? Higher > > price would not increase the use of such power? What in the world is > the > > logic behind such a statement? > > > > rgds > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups. com] On > > Behalf Of David Frantz > > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 5:01 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Cc: Origami Boat list > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity > > > > Hi Ben; > > > > I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is an > > allied science of optics they often have some very interesting > > articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in > > output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it > > might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being > > published require additional processing of the modules. > > > > The other scarry part here is that if the present administration stays > > in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to > > keep the price high. In other words I have this fear there will be a > > lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead to > > another big government program to address that. > > > > For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in > > advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech > > floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion > > to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the > > left so funding the research is a problem. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Aug 11, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ben Okopnik > net> wrote: > > > >> Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost > >> of > >> electric generation: > >> > >> http://www.good. > > is/post/countdown- to-"grid- parity"/ > >> > >> In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around > >> 2015. > >> This is based on data from recent research, and independently > >> confirmed > >> by the US Department of Energy. > >> > >> My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come > >> crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're > >> investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're consuming. :) > >> > >> > >> -- > >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > .NET > >> * > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 20904|20895|2009-08-11 20:33:47|Knut F Garshol|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Hi David, the last thing first. I am a geological engineer of profession and I have also a hard time accepting the scare-mongering that is going on. It is ONLY 10000 years since Scandinavia was under 2-3000 m of ice and ONLY 5000 years since most of it was gone. Who caused the warming that caused all this ice to disappear? We certainly did not drive cars at the time. It is being claimed that the changes are a lot faster now than ever before and there may be some truth in that, but proof that it is all man-made is missing. I am more concerned about energy in relation to dependency on oil from the Middle East. It is about time that a target is set and that the rules of the game for private investors and industry are set to support inventions that can solve this problem. I don't really care if solar energy or something we don't know about today will be the biggest contributor to the solution. My point is that without a defined goal and applicable incentives (and may be penalties), it will take much much much longer before we get there (if ever). There are many ways of meddling in the free market and they are not all negative. See above. If the playing field gets leveled for all businesses to contribute to moving the country in a wanted direction (and benefit if they do), then this would probably be something only the political system could achieve through rules and regulations. That does not necessarily mean that Government has to do it all, manage or steer the activity in any detail. Generally speaking, coming from a different place, I am a bit shocked about the polarization of all sorts of issues in the political debate in the US. Why is it that on both sides it seems like ANY position taken by the other side per definition is not only wrong and stupid, but even with bad intent. What is called "left" politics here and sometimes socialist, communist and even compared to the nazis, would probably fit in pretty well as right-wing policy some places in Europe. Stop using labels and start discussing the merits of what people suggest as solutions and improvements to existing problems. It would also help if both sides stopped to evaluate two things: 1) is it conceivable that the other side may have a point? 2) is it possible that my side does not know it all? rgds Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Frantz Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 6:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity Hi Knut; I did not state that well, but what I meant was that the price of such panels might not come down as many expect due to medling in the free market. Further the current administration seems to favor expensive energy to the detriment of the guy that needs that energy. If you are really concerned about energy, carbon emmissions and the like then you need to support much lower cost alternatives. In part this means moving manufacturing off US soil. As a side note I'm not a supporter of the global warming crowd. Frankly there is no sound evidence that this research has come to the right conclusion. We certainly have man made issues on the planet but there is a total lack of credible proof that global warming is a fact. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 11, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Knut F Garshol net> wrote: > Being the "stupid" Norwegian in the group and lacking understanding > of the > "stupid" American politics (I am NOT inviting another political rant > session), may be you can explain to me WHY if the "present > administration > stays in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in > place to > keep the price high" when the stated aim of your current President > and his > administration is to get more use of clean energy (like solar > power)? Higher > price would not increase the use of such power? What in the world is > the > logic behind such a statement? > > > > rgds > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of David Frantz > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 5:01 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Cc: Origami Boat list > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity > > > > > > Hi Ben; > > I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is an > allied science of optics they often have some very interesting > articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in > output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it > might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being > published require additional processing of the modules. > > The other scarry part here is that if the present administration stays > in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to > keep the price high. In other words I have this fear there will be a > lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead to > another big government program to address that. > > For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in > advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech > floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion > to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the > left so funding the research is a problem. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Aug 11, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ben Okopnik net> wrote: > >> Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost >> of >> electric generation: >> >> http://www.good. is/post/countdown-to-> > is/post/countdown-to-"grid-parity"/ >> >> In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around >> 2015. >> This is based on data from recent research, and independently >> confirmed >> by the US Department of Energy. >> >> My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come >> crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're >> investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're consuming. :) >> >> >> -- >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET> .NET >> * >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@ yahoogroups.comYahoo >> ! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20905|20895|2009-08-11 21:30:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Hi, David - On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 05:00:43PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > Hi Ben; > > I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is an > allied science of optics they often have some very interesting > articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in > output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it > might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being > published require additional processing of the modules. I don't see your point. Do you even begin to realize how much processing - how many millions of discrete process steps - go into building a computer? Now, given that, have you seen the prices for laptops lately? I'm sitting here typing this on an Aspire One laptop: 160GB hard drive, 2GB memory, built-in video camera, sound, USB, 9-hour battery, and tons of other features - that I bought brand-new for $349. Can you please explain to me how a solar panel of *any* kind can come even close to that level of complexity or cost of production? Especially when you can actually make a solar panel yourself with an inkjet and an oven? http://www.abc.net.au/ra/innovations/stories/s2397257.htm The thing that keeps the price of panels high is _not_ production costs; Arco figured out how to roll out continuous PV material for a dollar per square foot back in early 1980 (I was at the press conference at their downtown LA facility when they announced it.) The thing that has kept the price high is simple market forces: when the demand is relatively low, it's a luxury - meaning that people who need it will pay whatever the traffic will bear. When it's a commodity, on the other hand, then the manufacturers have no choice but to cut the profit to the bone - otherwise, some other company will take over the market by undercutting them, and they'll be out of business. Ergo, $349 laptops with every possible feature. > The other scarry part here is that if the present administration stays > in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to > keep the price high. Oh, dear. You mean like the insane tariffs imposed by the Repuglicans? The ones that let GM and their like keep making and selling crap cars while the rest of the world was getting better and better ones? You see how far that got them. I'm not a huge fan of any politician; Obama is no angel. But Bush was simply scum, and should have been impeached and prosecuted for genocide. > In other words I have this fear there will be a > lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead to > another big government program to address that. Which free market is this? None has ever existed anywhere, as far as I know, except in the minds of economical theorists. Let's not start with how some administration is going to "interfere" with a free market; that's never been anything more than a convenient talking point. > For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in > advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech > floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion > to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the > left so funding the research is a problem. Not accusing you of anything here, David, but *that* paranoid line is repeated /ad infinitum/ by every kook out there. Rants on how Big Oil, or The Government, or The Men in the Black Helicopters have kept the great secret of free power away from the masses abound; there's millions of them all over the Web. Let me mention a key word here: PROTOTYPE. Sure, there are a few things (very, very few) that would require a multi-million dollar cyclotron or whatever as a bare start - but pretty much every single principle of modern physics can be demonstrated with less than a hundred bucks worth of equipment, and 90% of them for way under that (see Richard Feynman's "Six Easy Pieces" at your local library for a description.) If you have some amazing idea that'll change the world, *demonstrate it* - and the world will beat a path to your door. If you think that Big Oil is after you, send your prototype to The Amazing Randi - there's your instant publicity _and_ a million bucks to boot. If you think that he just might be in the employ of Big Oil - the enemy is everywhere! - then write your gadget up in detail and send it to every newspaper in the country, including the communist, anarchist, and environmentalist ones (you figure Big Oil controls every one of those?) Put it on YouTube. Hire a plane and drag a banner behind it while scattering brochures over, say, New York City. You won't make any money, but the world will benefit from your amazing whatchamacallit, and there'd be no point in hunting you down any longer, right? I've seen a hell of a lot of hot air from all these "brilliant inventors" who had the secret of cheap energy and so on. I've never seen a single one of them produce anything *but* hot air, though. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * | 20906|20895|2009-08-12 09:46:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 02:49:27PM -0700, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Has anybody thought about or designed a workable battery charger made > from a bicycle and an auto alternator? you could ride the bike when in > port, and charge your battery any time you were in the cockpit, making > it into a sort of exercise bike. >    You'd need some way to hold it up rite and stable, some sort of > rollers to transfer power from the tires and belt it to a big truck > alternator, but hey, free power, and an exersise machine. The problem is that we humans just aren't very good as draft horses. :) Sure, it would make sense to create resistance in your bike by attaching a generator instead of using friction - and you'd get *something* into your batteries - but it would be expensive and inefficient (a truck alternator wouldn't work, by the way - wrong speed, horrible power mismatch. Think "clock motor" instead.) So, what _would_ you get? Well, if a horsepower is ~750W, and a trained athlete can produce about a third of that continously, let's count on half of that output - i.e. 125W. So, if you kept pedaling at your maximum level of effort for an hour (not something that most of us can do), you'd get about 10 amp-hours into your batteries (125W / 12V = ~10A.) To put that in perspective, a 15-watt solar panel with 8 hours of insolation will give you about the same amount - and would cost a lot less, both in time and money, than rigging up a custom-made generator on an exercise bike. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20907|20895|2009-08-12 10:54:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 06:21:05PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > As to the control freak thinking we currently have a very left wing > leaning government that wants controls over every bit of our lives. Funny you should phrase it that way, David. Been listening to much Rush Limbaugh lately? You appear to be using his technique of accusing the left of classic right-winger behavior, which is just laughable - it only works on people who are so ignorant of basic politics, history, and economics that they _have_ to listen to demagogues so that they'll know what to think (and I use that term in a very restricted sense.) Let me remind you of what you've forgotten: the left is called "the left" because they are politically left of center. That means more wealth distribution among the people, more social supports (e.g., welfare), fewer class barriers - in general, a more "power to the people" approach. The far end of the scale in that direction is socialism - say, something like the Swedish economic system. The right, on the other hand, is *right* of center - am I making myself clear yet? That means more wealth concentration in the hands of a small number, fewer social supports, more controls, and a more hierarchical, totalitarian structure. The far end of the scale in *that* direction is totalitarianism - something like Russia during the communist era, or Hitler's Germany. Thus endeth the basic lesson in politics. Now, for the sixty-four dollar question: *which* party is it, again, that's all about control? > The right simply wanted to keep the plantary scum out of the > country. So you really have to ask which is worst. I guess that would be "plantary scum" like me; I'm a Russian immigrant. Or possibly my wife, whose parents came here from Japan. Or maybe - the right's current favorite stalking horse for their racism - Obama's father. "Plantary" scum, all of us. Please tell me - keeping in mind that your last name is "FRANTZ" - what kind of "plantary scum", exactly, should be kept out, and when should that policy have started? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20908|20895|2009-08-12 12:54:05|Donal Philby|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|There is so much more to the problem that just cheaper panels. We have two 75W panels and a wind gen aboard and that generates plenty of juice for most needs daily, including the refer. But it won't be enough for almost any house. Size matters. Downscaling the world would be a lot cheaper. Smaller living space means smaller lights, less to heat or cool, fewer possessions, and less energy needs. Sailing vessels and sailors certainly are in the vanguard of what the future may look like. I recommend a rather mind bending work by a founder of the Canadian Work Less Party. "Workers of the World Relax" One critical concept he discusses is Jevon's Paradox. Go to: http://makewealthhistory.org/2009/01/16/workers-of-the-world-relax-by-conrad-schmidt/ One security key to power is decentralization. My main concern with traditional nuclear power is that it keeps supply in the hands of a few, providing opportunities for abuse. Here is one bit of decentralized hope that is not quite cold fusion, but in the direction of sensible power generation is Hyperion's tiny nuclear generators. http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/ Portland, Oregon's change to LED stop light is saving $500,000 a year in power and maintenance. But Jevon's paradox will certainly still apply. donal| 20909|20895|2009-08-12 18:11:30|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|The aboriginals tried to keep the planetary scum out of your country and mine, and we failed . So you are still there. Ronny Regan made the same promise, while employing illegal immigrants to clean his diapers. Mexicans are simply trying to enjoy what was stolen from them at gunpoint. I wish them all the luck they can get. They are called planetary scum by rednecks because they are brown and have large families. If they were blue eyed Swedish beauty queens with their tubes tied, the redneck politicoes would be rushing down there to welcome them in person. Why the drug wars? becaue USanians are providing the market, and US prohibition makes it highly profitable, while killing any other options for survival they may have. I have been hearing of breakthrus in solar panels for decades, which promised to increase the output while reducing the price drasticaly, but have yet to see anything on the market. An alternator guy said the alternators on small english cars dont have to go so fast to get a reasonable output. Perhaps I could feed the field on one like I do my welder, from the starting battery, and get a high outoput wind generator from the autowreckers, cheap. Does anyone know if that is possible? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Brent; > > Actually I wasn't thinking about cold fusion but that has > possibilities too. Contray to popular belief research really never > stopped with regard to cold fusion. The government sponsored > research has gone on at China Lake with some interesting reports being > published. > > As to what I had in mind maybe I can dig up some links later. Google > sponsored a very interesting talk on one process. > > As to the control freak thinking we currently have a very left wing > leaning government that wants controls over every bit of our lives. > The right simply wanted to keep the plantary scum out of the > country. So you really have to ask which is worst. > > You are right though better to spend as much time as possible away and > live in peace with your surroundings. My problem is it took me a long > time ti realize this and time grows short. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Aug 11, 2009, at 5:11 PM, brentswain38 > wrote: > > > Come up with cold fusion and almost all the arguements against > > nuclear power dissapear, at least from this staunch lifetime leftie. > > Go for a sail and buy your panels elsewhere if protectionism becomes > > a problem. That is what cruising boats are for. > > Get rid of the control freak thinking of the right wingers, re > > border control-cater to the fear industry, and you will be freeer to > > do that. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > > wrote: > >> > >> Hi Ben; > >> > >> I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is > >> an > >> allied science of optics they often have some very interesting > >> articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in > >> output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it > >> might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being > >> published require additional processing of the modules. > >> > >> The other scarry part here is that if the present administration > >> stays > >> in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to > >> keep the price high. In other words I have this fear there will > >> be a > >> lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead > >> to > >> another big government program to address that. > >> > >> For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in > >> advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech > >> floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion > >> to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the > >> left so funding the research is a problem. > >> > >> David A Frantz > >> > >> websterindustro@ > >> Sent from my iPhone. > >> > >> On Aug 11, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > >> > >>> Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost > >>> of > >>> electric generation: > >>> > >>> http://www.good.is/post/countdown-to-%c3%a2%c2%80%c2%9cgrid-parity%c3%a2%c2%80%c2%9d/ > >>> > >>> In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around > >>> 2015. > >>> This is based on data from recent research, and independently > >>> confirmed > >>> by the US Department of Energy. > >>> > >>> My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come > >>> crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're > >>> investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're > >>> consuming. :) > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > >>> * > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >>> unsubscribe@ > >>> ! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 20910|20895|2009-08-12 18:24:17|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Free trade and globalisation means shipping the raw resources from Brasil to China, making it into consumer goods then shipping it back to North America and Europe, drasticaly increasing dependece on oil, and cheap shipping. Protectionism means manufacturing the goods closer to home and closer to the sourced of materials, reducing dependence on oil. Dwindling energy resources, and skyrocketing shipping costs may settle the problem for us. How competitive will products produced in China be compared to locally produced goods, at $200+ a barrel oil, and the resulting shipping costs? USanians didn't need a passport to get into their own country before the right wingers began trashing personal freedoms while preaching freedom. People were not being sent to Syria to be tortured for their opinions. They weren't being thrown in jail, or denied airline travel , for expressing a political opinion.They didn't live in fear of stating apolitical opinion.Some freedom!I guess that's politics. They are not judged by what they do, or have been doing for the last 8 years, only by what they say. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Hi David, > > > > the last thing first. I am a geological engineer of profession and I have > also a hard time accepting the scare-mongering that is going on. It is ONLY > 10000 years since Scandinavia was under 2-3000 m of ice and ONLY 5000 years > since most of it was gone. Who caused the warming that caused all this ice > to disappear? We certainly did not drive cars at the time. It is being > claimed that the changes are a lot faster now than ever before and there may > be some truth in that, but proof that it is all man-made is missing. > > > > I am more concerned about energy in relation to dependency on oil from the > Middle East. It is about time that a target is set and that the rules of the > game for private investors and industry are set to support inventions that > can solve this problem. I don't really care if solar energy or something we > don't know about today will be the biggest contributor to the solution. My > point is that without a defined goal and applicable incentives (and may be > penalties), it will take much much much longer before we get there (if > ever). > > > > There are many ways of meddling in the free market and they are not all > negative. See above. If the playing field gets leveled for all businesses to > contribute to moving the country in a wanted direction (and benefit if they > do), then this would probably be something only the political system could > achieve through rules and regulations. That does not necessarily mean that > Government has to do it all, manage or steer the activity in any detail. > > > > Generally speaking, coming from a different place, I am a bit shocked about > the polarization of all sorts of issues in the political debate in the US. > Why is it that on both sides it seems like ANY position taken by the other > side per definition is not only wrong and stupid, but even with bad intent. > What is called "left" politics here and sometimes socialist, communist and > even compared to the nazis, would probably fit in pretty well as right-wing > policy some places in Europe. Stop using labels and start discussing the > merits of what people suggest as solutions and improvements to existing > problems. It would also help if both sides stopped to evaluate two things: > 1) is it conceivable that the other side may have a point? 2) is it possible > that my side does not know it all? > > > > rgds > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of David Frantz > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 6:32 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity > > > > > > Hi Knut; > > I did not state that well, but what I meant was that the price of such > panels might not come down as many expect due to medling in the free > market. Further the current administration seems to favor expensive > energy to the detriment of the guy that needs that energy. > > If you are really concerned about energy, carbon emmissions and the > like then you need to support much lower cost alternatives. In part > this means moving manufacturing off US soil. > > As a side note I'm not a supporter of the global warming crowd. > Frankly there is no sound evidence that this research has come to the > right conclusion. We certainly have man made issues on the planet > but there is a total lack of credible proof that global warming is a > fact. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Aug 11, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Knut F Garshol net> > wrote: > > > Being the "stupid" Norwegian in the group and lacking understanding > > of the > > "stupid" American politics (I am NOT inviting another political rant > > session), may be you can explain to me WHY if the "present > > administration > > stays in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in > > place to > > keep the price high" when the stated aim of your current President > > and his > > administration is to get more use of clean energy (like solar > > power)? Higher > > price would not increase the use of such power? What in the world is > > the > > logic behind such a statement? > > > > > > > > rgds > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of David Frantz > > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 5:01 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Cc: Origami Boat list > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ben; > > > > I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is an > > allied science of optics they often have some very interesting > > articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in > > output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it > > might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being > > published require additional processing of the modules. > > > > The other scarry part here is that if the present administration stays > > in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to > > keep the price high. In other words I have this fear there will be a > > lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead to > > another big government program to address that. > > > > For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in > > advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech > > floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion > > to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the > > left so funding the research is a problem. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Aug 11, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ben Okopnik > net> wrote: > > > >> Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost > >> of > >> electric generation: > >> > >> http://www.good. is/post/countdown-to-> > > is/post/countdown-to-"grid-parity"/ > >> > >> In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around > >> 2015. > >> This is based on data from recent research, and independently > >> confirmed > >> by the US Department of Energy. > >> > >> My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come > >> crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're > >> investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're consuming. :) > >> > >> > >> -- > >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > .NET> .NET > >> * > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > unsubscribe@ > yahoogroups.comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20911|20881|2009-08-12 18:28:25|sailparpar|Re: Video of Moonflower of Moab Swain 36|Nice boat!!! red just like parpar, even has the same Earth Flag i carried across the Pacific....Rock On!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Locky -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Just a short video of Kate and Carl's boat, MOM, at anchor in Oak Bay, for your viewing interest: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQybpCTCmeg > > They bought a trysail off me and we had a great "gam" in the cockpit in the setting sun. Their boat is very interesting, a true example of the versatility possible in creating your own boat from Brent's plans. > > Alex > | 20912|20895|2009-08-12 18:32:22|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|I have been told that the permanent magnet motor that I bought for $28 is now many times that price, due to increased demand. Dont expect anything to get cheaper due to reduced production costs. I remember when oil was $40 a barrel and gas at the pump was 19 cents a litre. Diesel costs half as much as gas to manufacture, but does it sell for half the price of gas? Cost of production has nothing to do with price. Greed, and what you will pay ,decides that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > Hi, David - > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 05:00:43PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Ben; > > > > I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is an > > allied science of optics they often have some very interesting > > articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in > > output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it > > might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being > > published require additional processing of the modules. > > I don't see your point. Do you even begin to realize how much processing > - how many millions of discrete process steps - go into building a > computer? Now, given that, have you seen the prices for laptops lately? > > I'm sitting here typing this on an Aspire One laptop: 160GB hard drive, > 2GB memory, built-in video camera, sound, USB, 9-hour battery, and tons > of other features - that I bought brand-new for $349. Can you please > explain to me how a solar panel of *any* kind can come even close to > that level of complexity or cost of production? Especially when you can > actually make a solar panel yourself with an inkjet and an oven? > > http://www.abc.net.au/ra/innovations/stories/s2397257.htm > > The thing that keeps the price of panels high is _not_ production costs; > Arco figured out how to roll out continuous PV material for a dollar per > square foot back in early 1980 (I was at the press conference at their > downtown LA facility when they announced it.) > > The thing that has kept the price high is simple market forces: when the > demand is relatively low, it's a luxury - meaning that people who need > it will pay whatever the traffic will bear. When it's a commodity, on > the other hand, then the manufacturers have no choice but to cut the > profit to the bone - otherwise, some other company will take over the > market by undercutting them, and they'll be out of business. Ergo, $349 > laptops with every possible feature. > > > The other scarry part here is that if the present administration stays > > in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to > > keep the price high. > > Oh, dear. You mean like the insane tariffs imposed by the Repuglicans? > The ones that let GM and their like keep making and selling crap cars > while the rest of the world was getting better and better ones? You see > how far that got them. > > I'm not a huge fan of any politician; Obama is no angel. But Bush was > simply scum, and should have been impeached and prosecuted for genocide. > > > In other words I have this fear there will be a > > lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead to > > another big government program to address that. > > Which free market is this? None has ever existed anywhere, as far as I > know, except in the minds of economical theorists. Let's not start with > how some administration is going to "interfere" with a free market; > that's never been anything more than a convenient talking point. > > > For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in > > advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech > > floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion > > to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the > > left so funding the research is a problem. > > Not accusing you of anything here, David, but *that* paranoid line is > repeated /ad infinitum/ by every kook out there. Rants on how Big Oil, > or The Government, or The Men in the Black Helicopters have kept the > great secret of free power away from the masses abound; there's millions > of them all over the Web. > > Let me mention a key word here: PROTOTYPE. Sure, there are a few things > (very, very few) that would require a multi-million dollar cyclotron or > whatever as a bare start - but pretty much every single principle of > modern physics can be demonstrated with less than a hundred bucks worth > of equipment, and 90% of them for way under that (see Richard Feynman's > "Six Easy Pieces" at your local library for a description.) If you have > some amazing idea that'll change the world, *demonstrate it* - and the > world will beat a path to your door. > > If you think that Big Oil is after you, send your prototype to The > Amazing Randi - there's your instant publicity _and_ a million bucks to > boot. If you think that he just might be in the employ of Big Oil - the > enemy is everywhere! - then write your gadget up in detail and send it > to every newspaper in the country, including the communist, anarchist, > and environmentalist ones (you figure Big Oil controls every one of > those?) Put it on YouTube. Hire a plane and drag a banner behind it > while scattering brochures over, say, New York City. You won't make any > money, but the world will benefit from your amazing whatchamacallit, and > there'd be no point in hunting you down any longer, right? > > I've seen a hell of a lot of hot air from all these "brilliant > inventors" who had the secret of cheap energy and so on. I've never seen > a single one of them produce anything *but* hot air, though. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20913|20913|2009-08-13 02:45:25|briannarobertsers|Bumper Mix of New Free Stuff (13th August)|Dear Members As a special treat for members, I have found another great page full of free-stuff you can collect INSTANTLY! There is so much to grab, its definately worth the visit. Simply click on the link below and it will take you directly to this amazing NEW freebie page! http://groups.google.com/group/freebiestoday/web/freebies-august-13 Enjoy!| 20915|20881|2009-08-13 04:59:56|kingsknight4life|Re: Video of Moonflower of Moab Swain 36|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sailparpar" wrote: > > Nice boat!!! > > red just like parpar, even has the same Earth Flag i carried across the Pacific....Rock On!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > > Locky > Hi Locky When are you guys going to update your site? Did you guys sell parpar and if so what did you replace her with? I also think its time to update your site too Carl. :) some of us at the moment can only live vicariously through other "Brentboat" owners sites. (ie. me) Thanks Rowland| 20916|20895|2009-08-13 08:48:39|edward_stoneuk|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > >> > Let me remind you of what you've forgotten: the left is called "the > left" because they are politically left of center. That means more > wealth distribution among the people, more social supports (e.g., > welfare), fewer class barriers - in general, a more "power to the > people" approach. The far end of the scale in that direction is > socialism - say, something like the Swedish economic system. > > The right, on the other hand, is *right* of center - am I making myself > clear yet? That means more wealth concentration in the hands of a small > number, fewer social supports, more controls, and a more hierarchical, > totalitarian structure. The far end of the scale in *that* direction is > totalitarianism - something like Russia during the communist era, or > Hitler's Germany. > Hi Ben, It never seemed that straightforward to me. Hitler's Germany was run by the Nazi party or to give it its full name the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, which translates to National Socialist German Workers' Party. Russia and its satellite states in the communist era was known as the USSR or the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. You can't judge a book by its cover I guess. All is in flux, ideas, conventional wisdoms, mental, physical and perhaps spiritual resources change both personally and of groups and nations. Our environment continually changes too. It always has been so and I should imagine it always will be so. As far as I know neither country got involved in building origamboats although both countries had and have now excellent engineers. Regards, Ted| 20917|20895|2009-08-13 09:19:07|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Isn't it interesting how the difference between political right and left depends in so many peoples' minds on policy concerning distribution of wealth, and policy on creation of wealth is an afterthought at best?   Tax all the wealth creators into the ground, stagnant or no wealth creation, no pleasure boating business, cost of marine materials/equipment/supplies gets even higher. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20918|20895|2009-08-13 19:00:18|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Engineers are often indoctrinated into looking things up in a book and following strictly the standard, cast in stone, way of doing things. In their indoctrination, challenging conventional norms is strongly dicouraged, as is inovation. Thus entertaining the idea of origami would be a no-no. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > >> > > Let me remind you of what you've forgotten: the left is called "the > > left" because they are politically left of center. That means more > > wealth distribution among the people, more social supports (e.g., > > welfare), fewer class barriers - in general, a more "power to the > > people" approach. The far end of the scale in that direction is > > socialism - say, something like the Swedish economic system. > > > > The right, on the other hand, is *right* of center - am I making myself > > clear yet? That means more wealth concentration in the hands of a small > > number, fewer social supports, more controls, and a more hierarchical, > > totalitarian structure. The far end of the scale in *that* direction is > > totalitarianism - something like Russia during the communist era, or > > Hitler's Germany. > > > > Hi Ben, > > It never seemed that straightforward to me. > > Hitler's Germany was run by the Nazi party or to give it its full name the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, which translates to National Socialist German Workers' Party. > > Russia and its satellite states in the communist era was known as the USSR or the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. > > You can't judge a book by its cover I guess. All is in flux, ideas, conventional wisdoms, mental, physical and perhaps spiritual resources change both personally and of groups and nations. Our environment continually changes too. It always has been so and I should imagine it always will be so. > > As far as I know neither country got involved in building origamboats although both countries had and have now excellent engineers. > > Regards, > Ted > | 20919|20895|2009-08-13 19:08:38|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|So tell us Herr Frantz, when was the last time a member got up in the US congress and said "If we allow those Mexicans into the country my wife and I wont be able to pick lettuce for five dollars a day." Immigration is not about keeping people out, its about keeping them vulnerable, subservient and scared , or the threat is to send them back to a corporate engineered situation of even greater vulnerability subservience and fear, for the benefit of the corporate world. If they wanted to keep them out, they would make the effort to make things better in the country they come from. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Free trade and globalisation means shipping the raw resources from Brasil to China, making it into consumer goods then shipping it back to North America and Europe, drasticaly increasing dependece on oil, and cheap shipping. Protectionism means manufacturing the goods closer to home and closer to the sourced of materials, reducing dependence on oil. Dwindling energy resources, and skyrocketing shipping costs may settle the problem for us. How competitive will products produced in China be compared to locally produced goods, at $200+ a barrel oil, and the resulting shipping costs? > USanians didn't need a passport to get into their own country before the right wingers began trashing personal freedoms while preaching freedom. People were not being sent to Syria to be tortured for their opinions. They weren't being thrown in jail, or denied airline travel , for expressing a political opinion.They didn't live in fear of stating apolitical opinion.Some freedom!I guess that's politics. They are not judged by what they do, or have been doing for the last 8 years, only by what they say. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > > > Hi David, > > > > > > > > the last thing first. I am a geological engineer of profession and I have > > also a hard time accepting the scare-mongering that is going on. It is ONLY > > 10000 years since Scandinavia was under 2-3000 m of ice and ONLY 5000 years > > since most of it was gone. Who caused the warming that caused all this ice > > to disappear? We certainly did not drive cars at the time. It is being > > claimed that the changes are a lot faster now than ever before and there may > > be some truth in that, but proof that it is all man-made is missing. > > > > > > > > I am more concerned about energy in relation to dependency on oil from the > > Middle East. It is about time that a target is set and that the rules of the > > game for private investors and industry are set to support inventions that > > can solve this problem. I don't really care if solar energy or something we > > don't know about today will be the biggest contributor to the solution. My > > point is that without a defined goal and applicable incentives (and may be > > penalties), it will take much much much longer before we get there (if > > ever). > > > > > > > > There are many ways of meddling in the free market and they are not all > > negative. See above. If the playing field gets leveled for all businesses to > > contribute to moving the country in a wanted direction (and benefit if they > > do), then this would probably be something only the political system could > > achieve through rules and regulations. That does not necessarily mean that > > Government has to do it all, manage or steer the activity in any detail. > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, coming from a different place, I am a bit shocked about > > the polarization of all sorts of issues in the political debate in the US. > > Why is it that on both sides it seems like ANY position taken by the other > > side per definition is not only wrong and stupid, but even with bad intent. > > What is called "left" politics here and sometimes socialist, communist and > > even compared to the nazis, would probably fit in pretty well as right-wing > > policy some places in Europe. Stop using labels and start discussing the > > merits of what people suggest as solutions and improvements to existing > > problems. It would also help if both sides stopped to evaluate two things: > > 1) is it conceivable that the other side may have a point? 2) is it possible > > that my side does not know it all? > > > > > > > > rgds > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of David Frantz > > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 6:32 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Knut; > > > > I did not state that well, but what I meant was that the price of such > > panels might not come down as many expect due to medling in the free > > market. Further the current administration seems to favor expensive > > energy to the detriment of the guy that needs that energy. > > > > If you are really concerned about energy, carbon emmissions and the > > like then you need to support much lower cost alternatives. In part > > this means moving manufacturing off US soil. > > > > As a side note I'm not a supporter of the global warming crowd. > > Frankly there is no sound evidence that this research has come to the > > right conclusion. We certainly have man made issues on the planet > > but there is a total lack of credible proof that global warming is a > > fact. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Aug 11, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Knut F Garshol > net> > > wrote: > > > > > Being the "stupid" Norwegian in the group and lacking understanding > > > of the > > > "stupid" American politics (I am NOT inviting another political rant > > > session), may be you can explain to me WHY if the "present > > > administration > > > stays in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in > > > place to > > > keep the price high" when the stated aim of your current President > > > and his > > > administration is to get more use of clean energy (like solar > > > power)? Higher > > > price would not increase the use of such power? What in the world is > > > the > > > logic behind such a statement? > > > > > > > > > > > > rgds > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of David Frantz > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 5:01 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > > Cc: Origami Boat list > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Solar energy: Grid parity > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ben; > > > > > > I get Photonics/Spectra on a regular basis and since solar power is an > > > allied science of optics they often have some very interesting > > > articles in there. What we can expect is continous improvement in > > > output per panel but I'm not sure the panel price will move much, it > > > might even go up. The problem is that many of the techniques being > > > published require additional processing of the modules. > > > > > > The other scarry part here is that if the present administration stays > > > in power we might actually see protectionary measures put in place to > > > keep the price high. In other words I have this fear there will be a > > > lack of free market pressure on pricing. This of course will lead to > > > another big government program to address that. > > > > > > For the needs of the average boater there is actually more promise in > > > advanced nuclear technologies. There are some interesting tech > > > floating around that would provide for straight conversion of fusion > > > to electrical current. Of course this isn't a darling tech of the > > > left so funding the research is a problem. > > > > > > David A Frantz > > > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > > > On Aug 11, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ben Okopnik > > net> wrote: > > > > > >> Interesting article on when solar power cost will equal current cost > > >> of > > >> electric generation: > > >> > > >> http://www.good. > is/post/countdown-to-> > > > is/post/countdown-to-"grid-parity"/ > > >> > > >> In short, 2/3 of the US is projected to achieve grid parity around > > >> 2015. > > >> This is based on data from recent research, and independently > > >> confirmed > > >> by the US Department of Energy. > > >> > > >> My take-home from this is that solar panel prices are going to come > > >> crashing down in the next couple of years. Sell short if you're > > >> investing, and wait to buy as long as you can if you're consuming. :) > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > > .NET> .NET > > >> * > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------ > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > > > unsubscribe@ > > yahoogroups.comYahoo > > >> ! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > unsubscribe@ > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 20920|20920|2009-08-13 19:14:58|prairiemaidca|To paint or stick on??|Hi All: I'm looking at putting the name on Prairie Maid before the weather goes into the deep freeze once again. I was wondering if anyone has had experience with those pre made vinyl letter systems or am I better off to explore my artistic side and try to paint it on??? As usual your thoughts are appreciated. Martin.| 20921|20895|2009-08-13 20:07:43|Ben Okopnik|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Hi, Ted - On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:48:32PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > Let me remind you of what you've forgotten: the left is called "the > > left" because they are politically left of center. That means more > > wealth distribution among the people, more social supports (e.g., > > welfare), fewer class barriers - in general, a more "power to the > > people" approach. The far end of the scale in that direction is > > socialism - say, something like the Swedish economic system. > > > > The right, on the other hand, is *right* of center - am I making myself > > clear yet? That means more wealth concentration in the hands of a small > > number, fewer social supports, more controls, and a more hierarchical, > > totalitarian structure. The far end of the scale in *that* direction is > > totalitarianism - something like Russia during the communist era, or > > Hitler's Germany. > > Hi Ben, > > It never seemed that straightforward to me. > > Hitler's Germany was run by the Nazi party or to give it its full name > the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, which translates > to National Socialist German Workers' Party. > > Russia and its satellite states in the communist era was known as the > USSR or the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Sure - but the economic structure of both was a two-level system: wealth and nearly-total power for the privileged few, essentially slave status for everyone else. Having grown up in Russia, I'm pretty familiar with what that looks like - regardless of what they called it. > You can't judge a book by its cover I guess. Oh, I agree with you completely - but please note that I was responding to a characterization of "the left" as being the party that wants complete control. That's the favorite "through-the-looking-glass" argument of the neo-cons, who have already demonstrated their hysterical grasping for control via Bush, Cheney, and the rest of that gang. That particular kettle calling the pot black is just too ludicrous for words. > All is in flux, ideas, > conventional wisdoms, mental, physical and perhaps spiritual resources > change both personally and of groups and nations. Our environment > continually changes too. It always has been so and I should imagine it > always will be so. Again, I agree - excellent points all. > As far as I know neither country got involved in building origamboats > although both countries had and have now excellent engineers. Oooh, nice tie-in. :) Didn't the Russians invent arc welding in the first place? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * | 20922|20920|2009-08-13 20:35:04|allanweiman|Re: To paint or stick on??|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi All: I'm looking at putting the name on Prairie Maid before the weather goes into the deep freeze once again. I was wondering if anyone has had experience with those pre made vinyl letter systems or am I better off to explore my artistic side and try to paint it on??? As usual your thoughts are appreciated. Martin. > Hi hi, The vinyl letter system is very good, any font, colour etc. Never comes off! Friend have had theirs on for almost a decade! We've had ours on for a few years, it looks the same as the day it was put on.| 20923|20920|2009-08-13 21:03:25|Knut F Garshol|Re: To paint or stick on??|I have had only great results with stick-on pre-made letters and numbers. Key is to clean the substrate properly with vinegar or similar. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of prairiemaidca Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 7:14 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] To paint or stick on?? Hi All: I'm looking at putting the name on Prairie Maid before the weather goes into the deep freeze once again. I was wondering if anyone has had experience with those pre made vinyl letter systems or am I better off to explore my artistic side and try to paint it on??? As usual your thoughts are appreciated. Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20924|20920|2009-08-13 22:40:34|mark hamill|Re: To paint or stick on??|Was It the Girl or the Numbers? August 12, 2009 – San Francisco Bay It may be wise to keep an overcoat handy when traveling with passengers such as this. Photo Latitude / Andy © 2009 Latitude 38 Publishing Co., Inc. Several weeks ago a member of the Latitude family was pulled over while idling up a local channel in a ski boat. Aboard were two bare-chested young men and a gorgeous blonde girl wearing a bikini. As we understand the incident, the officers did not initially cite any infraction, but asked to see the boat's registration papers and the crew's I.D.s. Although the young men will forever be convinced that the officers simply wanted a closer look at their stunning blonde passenger, after thoroughly scrutinizing the boat, the officers did eventually issue a jaw-dropping $376 ticket for improper CF numbers. The colorful italicized numerals and characters that the ski boat displayed, they said, were improper. (Fix-it tickets cannot be issued for such infractions.) Turns out, the officers were correct. According to DMV regulations, unless federally documented, all sailboats over 8 feet long and all powerboats, including dinghies, must display permanently attached or painted CF numbers on both sides of its bow. They must be in "plain vertical block characters" of not less than three inches in height, must contrast in color with the background hull color, and must have spaces equal to the width of a letter other than "I" between the prefix and the number, and the number and the suffix. What's truly ironic about the incident described above is that stick-on numerals and alphabets very similar those used on the ticketed ski boat are marketed at many California marine stores. They have rounded, slighitly italicized characters and come in a wide range of colors, some with patterns that fade from one hue to another. Although we assume that thousands of them have been sold over the years, evidently none are technically legal.| 20925|20895|2009-08-13 23:14:02|Ben Okopnik|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 04:54:03PM -0000, Donal Philby wrote: > There is so much more to the problem that just cheaper panels. > > We have two 75W panels and a wind gen aboard and that generates plenty > of juice for most needs daily, including the refer. But it won't be > enough for almost any house. Size matters. > > Downscaling the world would be a lot cheaper. Smaller living space > means smaller lights, less to heat or cool, fewer possessions, and > less energy needs. Sailing vessels and sailors certainly are in the > vanguard of what the future may look like. I agree, but - how do you make people give up the bigger house, the SUV, the extra TV set in the bedroom/living room/kids' room/bathroom? Someone recently snarked that since the American medical establishment was unable to cope with obesity, the American economy decided to help... that may be the only way things will change in a positive direction. But Jevon's Paradox will _still_ apply, from a different perspective. As long as the average household has enough money to stay above the level of desperate poverty, people will continue to buy crap with anything left over after food, shelter, and the remainder of basic necessities have been covered. The US has had just about a century of intense, continual training in consumerism - you *must* buy crap with every remaining penny you have, or you're not a good American! - and breaking *that* habit would take a huge amount of awareness and work. Frankly, I don't know if it can be done... but if it can't, America isn't going to survive much longer. Those who have read "Pinocchio" will understand this parallel: China has been running Pleasure Island for our "benefit" for the last 30+ years, and America has been slowly turning into a donkey for just that long. Pretty soon, they'll harness us and put us to work - and all we'll be able to do is bray. > I recommend a rather mind bending work by a founder of the Canadian > Work Less Party. > > "Workers of the World Relax" Interesting concept - one with which I agree in principle, but, again, would require changing the entire structure/work ethic of the country. Who bells the cat? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20926|20895|2009-08-14 03:26:47|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Both Brent, Ben and some others made some great points on the political side, but I wont get in that. Re: grid parity- and here is the Very Good News ! I started this trawler stuff, seriously, about 6 years ago. 1. At that time, solar panels cost about 8$ / watt. 2. 1.5 years ago, solar panels cost about 4-6$/watt. 3. Today, they cost about 2.65$/watt. Efficiencies have climbed, from around 10-12 to 12-14%. At around 2$/watt for the panel, IF the whole system is based on paying an industrial price for it, you get grid parity. System cost; Currently, a solar system costs about 1/3 batteries, 1/3 panels, 1/3 controllers and installation. The controllers are simple electronics - their prices will go down through competition, as demand is now vastly increasing. Similar to the laptop mentioned. Installation is a variable - you can do it yourself, it´s certainly easy enough for all/most on this list. Battery power/kWh is decreasing slower, about 5%-10%/year. Again, due to competition, materials science and economies of scale. There is an excellent article on power generation costs on Professional Boatbuilder this month, by Nigel Calder. It mentions the current electrical cost as around 1$/kWh using the old, overpriced "marine system" pricing. IF you add current priced panels, a decent controller, and suitable batteries, and install it yourself, your real-world cost will be about 1/3 of that, I think, or about 0.30$/kWh. The only requirements to hit 0.20$/kWh are; - battery prices must go down 30% - panel prices must go down 25% - controller must not cost more than 1000$, or you must not pay too much for a controller About 90% of the cost of producing a PV panel is polysilicon, which is abundant and cheap in quantity. There was an articifial price increase, due to vast demand larger than supply, that multiplied the cost about 5 times last year. This has now lowered by more than 50%, and new sources are coming online. As polysilicon takes about a 2b$ investment and 2-3 years to get running, the supply is not yet there, but coming online this year from several major manufacturers. The virtuous cycle of more demand, more production, lower production costs increasing demand - has made 100% certain that we will hit grid parity, very, very soon. Whether this is within 2 years (maybe), 4 years (almost certainly) or ten years (very unlikely) down the road is immaterial. The ability to generate cheap energy is very good new for all of us. It will mean lowered reliance on the middle east crowd, improved standard of living, less conflicts, and less reliance on central authority and power generation. The good news is that none of these things can be controlled by any authority - this should actually help the people on both sides of the political debate. There are any nr of factories producing electronics (controllers), batteries and PV panels throughout the world. And with a vast, vast, vast market opening, this is only the start of a great rush into the market. As such, large flows of capital have gone and are going to lots of companies in this space. Please note that price reductions are built into the business models and projections of most Pv manfuacturers. If they themselves tell us that they will sell their products 20% cheaper every year, I for one will tend to believe them. BTW - Polysilicon is the same stuff microprocessors are made from. Just larger chunks. At this time, worldwide production is increasing about 60% year/year, and prices are decreasing accordingly, and demand is rising accordingly. Now- storing and transporting the power is another matter entirely. For this, a boat with local storage, immediate use, and moderate storage requirements is an excellent option. Sorry for the long post - many issues are not apt for snappy one-liners. For a boat; In a nutshell- my opinion- you need 2kW of panel power, and 3000 VA of storage - and you get grid and power independence. About 10 big (125-150W) panels, and 12 big batteries. This gives you permanent power generation, fresh water, fridge, freezer and all home comforts including power tools, pc´s, navigation etc. etc. The only thing you don´t get is chilly air conditioning, totally unnecessary, in my opinion. For this, you need a big boat - around 16 m in a trawler type boat, to get them on the roof. 10 panels at 1.3 sq m each, is 13 square meters, or a 3m x 4m hard top ((pilot)house roof).| 20927|20927|2009-08-14 09:29:07|Shane Duncan|a shiny BrentSwain31, almost ready for splash down|      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/1682671124/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&count=20&dir=asc   __________________________________________________________________________________ Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local. Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20928|20895|2009-08-14 09:41:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 09:26:25AM +0200, gcode fi (hanermo) wrote: > > System cost; > Currently, a solar system costs about 1/3 batteries, 1/3 panels, 1/3 > controllers and installation. > The controllers are simple electronics - their prices will go down > through competition, as demand is now vastly increasing. > Similar to the laptop mentioned. Excellent points all, and really good research - thank you! There's one thing that I want to note, though - it's not applicable to boats, but the point here has been *grid* parity all along. You don't need batteries. If you have a grid controller, you can use the grid itself for storage; that is, you sell the excess power during the day, and buy it back at night. As far as I'm aware, you don't lose anything by doing so. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20929|20929|2009-08-14 09:47:12|Martin Demers|sailing freedom VS big brother VS world order|I know this is not directly of sailing interest but it is indirectly, there is a popular video on google called "new world order". If those things happen the way it is planned, where will be our freedom for sailing and other outdoor activities? go have a look!| 20930|20920|2009-08-14 10:09:06|audeojude|Re: To paint or stick on??|The letters are perfectly legal for putting the boats name on the boat. Just not the registration numbers on the boat. On my boat the registration numbers and the name are in totally different styles.. It is pretty clearly set out in the packet you get when you register the boat. If you know how to read and then actually bother to read the instructions you should have no problem. As to vinyl decals.. they work very well and are very durable. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > > > > > > Was It the Girl or the Numbers? > August 12, 2009 – San Francisco Bay > > > It may be wise to keep an overcoat handy when traveling with passengers such as this. > Photo Latitude / Andy > © 2009 Latitude 38 Publishing Co., Inc. > > > > Several weeks ago a member of the Latitude family was pulled over while idling up a local channel in a ski boat. Aboard were two bare-chested young men and a gorgeous blonde girl wearing a bikini. > > As we understand the incident, the officers did not initially cite any infraction, but asked to see the boat's registration papers and the crew's I.D.s. Although the young men will forever be convinced that the officers simply wanted a closer look at their stunning blonde passenger, after thoroughly scrutinizing the boat, the officers did eventually issue a jaw-dropping $376 ticket for improper CF numbers. The colorful italicized numerals and characters that the ski boat displayed, they said, were improper. (Fix-it tickets cannot be issued for such infractions.) > > Turns out, the officers were correct. According to DMV regulations, unless federally documented, all sailboats over 8 feet long and all powerboats, including dinghies, must display permanently attached or painted CF numbers on both sides of its bow. They must be in "plain vertical block characters" of not less than three inches in height, must contrast in color with the background hull color, and must have spaces equal to the width of a letter other than "I" between the prefix and the number, and the number and the suffix. > > What's truly ironic about the incident described above is that stick-on numerals and alphabets very similar those used on the ticketed ski boat are marketed at many California marine stores. They have rounded, slighitly italicized characters and come in a wide range of colors, some with patterns that fade from one hue to another. Although we assume that thousands of them have been sold over the years, evidently none are technically legal. > | 20931|20895|2009-08-14 10:57:09|Donal Philby|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Hanermo, This is Jevon's Paradox in action. Guaranteed to provide you with more entertainment, but less leisure. I wish I had not let my wife talk me into the refer aboard. It is responsible for most of the complications and hassles aboard. Indeed, the electrical system is almost a burden despite that I made it as simple and substantial as I could figure out how to do. It is ever so difficult to let complications go. donal --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > For a boat; > In a nutshell- my opinion- you need 2kW of panel power, and 3000 VA of > storage - and you get grid and power independence. > About 10 big (125-150W) panels, and 12 big batteries. This gives you > permanent power generation, fresh water, fridge, freezer and all home > comforts including power tools, pc´s, navigation etc. etc. > The only thing you don´t get is chilly air conditioning, totally > unnecessary, in my opinion. > For this, you need a big boat - around 16 m in a trawler type boat, to > get them on the roof. > 10 panels at 1.3 sq m each, is 13 square meters, or a 3m x 4m hard top > ((pilot)house roof). > | 20932|20927|2009-08-14 11:12:04|Carl Anderson|Re: a shiny BrentSwain31, almost ready for splash down|Congrats! Who's boat & where was she built? & by the way, your missing a keel :)... sv-mom.com Shane Duncan wrote: > > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/1682671124/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&count=20&dir=asc > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local. > Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 20933|20927|2009-08-14 11:56:13|Shane Duncan|Re: a shiny BrentSwain31, almost ready for splash down|  working on the missing keel had a few distractions on the way cheers shane http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/album/1266123051/pic/1740579144/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&count=20&dir=asc Congrats! Who's boat & where was she built? & by the way, your missing a keel :)... sv-mom.com >  > > > >  >  >  __________________________________________________________________________________ Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local. Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20934|20895|2009-08-14 11:58:56|Carl Anderson|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|We really like the refrigerator that I built into MOM! No complications (yes you have to have a larger electrical system but are YOU going to live like the Pardy's?). The only hassle is that in the Pacific North West environment we have to defrost the thing after 2 months of full time cruising. Insulation is the heart of any refrigeration system in a boat and I built in over R30 (forget about measuring inches of the stuff the "R" value is the only important thing). The very old & degraded 240 watt solar system that I have (Brent would be proud as it cost me NOTHING!) has kept the thing running on its own. I do have a 440 amp hour battery system dedicated for that (plus the inverter, computer, radar, cabin fans & deck light). Anyway whoever thinks that you need a 2KW solar array is WAY, WAY off base and needs to do some research into sizing arrays, battery storage & load. Thanks for your time, Carl sv-mom.com Donal Philby wrote: > > > Hanermo, > > This is Jevon's Paradox in action. Guaranteed to provide you with more > entertainment, but less leisure. I wish I had not let my wife talk me > into the refer aboard. It is responsible for most of the complications > and hassles aboard. Indeed, the electrical system is almost a burden > despite that I made it as simple and substantial as I could figure out > how to do. It is ever so difficult to let complications go. > > donal > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "gcode fi (hanermo)" > wrote: > > > For a boat; > > In a nutshell- my opinion- you need 2kW of panel power, and 3000 VA of > > storage - and you get grid and power independence. > > About 10 big (125-150W) panels, and 12 big batteries. This gives you > > permanent power generation, fresh water, fridge, freezer and all home > > comforts including power tools, pc´s, navigation etc. etc. > > The only thing you don´t get is chilly air conditioning, totally > > unnecessary, in my opinion. > > For this, you need a big boat - around 16 m in a trawler type boat, to > > get them on the roof. > > 10 panels at 1.3 sq m each, is 13 square meters, or a 3m x 4m hard top > > ((pilot)house roof). > > > > | 20935|20895|2009-08-14 13:48:59|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Carl - My boat is a home .. not a camper. As such, I am halfway between the Nordhavn crowd, who cannot manage with 12 kW gensets, and the typical sailboats, with 2 mid-size batteries. And ... I can absolutely, unequivocally state that I know how many kWh/day, and how large a solar array I need. Of course, I will be living in a 60 ton boat, and I have full cnc metal workshop, with 7 axis lathes, 5 axis mills, plasma cutting equipment etc. etc. all of which I can use to fix anyones stuff if and when they need it, in the harbor/on the hook etc. The consumption of the tools on a daily basis is more/less zero, as they are not going to be used more than sometimes, ie at need. 2 kW is the minimum/optimum for *house* use. And I very much have researched the issue. It is not the one for survival use ... or a typical sailboat setup. 2 kW + 3 kVa gives you a fridge, freezer, 2 pc´s, (led) lights, watermaker for showers for 4, fresh-water flush (no odors), nav instruments, radar at night if you want, 6 days with no genset. Which of the above can you do with less ? House as in normal, common, 240 V efficient, cheap, silent large comfortable appliances, available worlwide with zero maintenance and 6 year avg. lifespan. Please note the word efficient. And the word cheap. And the zero maintenance. When you tell me I am way off base, you should consider what the use is, where and what for etc. The ONLY ones who say you dont want or need large amounts of free solar electricity are the ones who have chosen to give up on normal comfortable appliances, which is a lifestyle choice, usually due to financial considerations. This is fair enough - If I had just wanted to go, I would have done that 6 years ago. And then most need to give up, for various reasons that often have to do with lack of typical amenities. I chose to equip myself, and then go with the amenities and an income stream (metal workshop). everyone choices are different - and I can well understand and symphatise with other peoples choices. IF you had the power .. would you mind having an easy way to use any normal appliance. Would you mind having a large refrigerator, or 2 ? As in being able to have more fresh stuff ? Cold drinks ? Milk ? Cokes ? Keep medicines cold ? A radar at night ? Now .. when I sail, I do without any of the above, and vastly enjoy myself. When I travel, likewise. When I move onto my trawler, I will NOT do without runnning water, normal toilets etc. as I cannot see any reason not to. I also find it unnecessary and silly to not have power and very desirable to more/less never need to run a genset. My power needs are for a metal workshop - and normal hotel loads. Wasteful power I consider air-conditioning (for us), stabilisers (poor design, wrong hull, not fit for purpose), electric ovens. TV I can take or leave, we dont have a TV antenna at this time (3 years). Carl Anderson wrote: > > Anyway whoever thinks that you need a 2KW solar array is WAY, WAY off > base and needs to do some research into sizing arrays, battery storage & > load. > > Thanks for your time, > Carl > sv-mom.com > | 20936|20895|2009-08-14 14:27:22|Marty Puckett|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Ben said: > If you have a grid controller, you can >use the grid >itself for storage; that is, you sell the >excess power during the day, >and buy it back at night. As far as I'm >aware, you don't lose anything >by doing so. Good point, but just be aware that rules, regs, and pricing structures for selling power back to your electric company vary from state to state and even btwn different companies within the same state. Your mileage may vary. Marty > | 20937|20920|2009-08-14 15:10:06|brentswain38|Re: To paint or stick on??|I prefer removeable name boards so I can take them off when painting. Two bolts thru the bulwark for each is all you need. With unregisterd boiats you can change them anytime. Brtent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > I have had only great results with stick-on pre-made letters and numbers. > Key is to clean the substrate properly with vinegar or similar. > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of prairiemaidca > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 7:14 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] To paint or stick on?? > > > > > > Hi All: I'm looking at putting the name on Prairie Maid before the weather > goes into the deep freeze once again. I was wondering if anyone has had > experience with those pre made vinyl letter systems or am I better off to > explore my artistic side and try to paint it on??? As usual your thoughts > are appreciated. Martin. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20938|20895|2009-08-14 15:23:41|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|I agree about power requirements. I did my first 8 years of cruising including three pacific crossinggs without a battery. Carl, you should keep in mind that your fridge is new and problems havent had time to begin. Since leaving high school I have lived without refridgeration ever since. I put an icebox in my last boat and only used it once or twice in ten years, never missed it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > We really like the refrigerator that I built into MOM! > No complications (yes you have to have a larger electrical system but > are YOU going to live like the Pardy's?). > The only hassle is that in the Pacific North West environment we have to > defrost the thing after 2 months of full time cruising. > Insulation is the heart of any refrigeration system in a boat and I > built in over R30 (forget about measuring inches of the stuff the "R" > value is the only important thing). > The very old & degraded 240 watt solar system that I have (Brent would > be proud as it cost me NOTHING!) has kept the thing running on its own. > I do have a 440 amp hour battery system dedicated for that (plus the > inverter, computer, radar, cabin fans & deck light). > > Anyway whoever thinks that you need a 2KW solar array is WAY, WAY off > base and needs to do some research into sizing arrays, battery storage & > load. > > Thanks for your time, > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > > Donal Philby wrote: > > > > > > Hanermo, > > > > This is Jevon's Paradox in action. Guaranteed to provide you with more > > entertainment, but less leisure. I wish I had not let my wife talk me > > into the refer aboard. It is responsible for most of the complications > > and hassles aboard. Indeed, the electrical system is almost a burden > > despite that I made it as simple and substantial as I could figure out > > how to do. It is ever so difficult to let complications go. > > > > donal > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "gcode fi (hanermo)" > > wrote: > > > > > For a boat; > > > In a nutshell- my opinion- you need 2kW of panel power, and 3000 VA of > > > storage - and you get grid and power independence. > > > About 10 big (125-150W) panels, and 12 big batteries. This gives you > > > permanent power generation, fresh water, fridge, freezer and all home > > > comforts including power tools, pc´s, navigation etc. etc. > > > The only thing you don´t get is chilly air conditioning, totally > > > unnecessary, in my opinion. > > > For this, you need a big boat - around 16 m in a trawler type boat, to > > > get them on the roof. > > > 10 panels at 1.3 sq m each, is 13 square meters, or a 3m x 4m hard top > > > ((pilot)house roof). > > > > > > > > | 20939|20939|2009-08-14 16:33:49|ANDREW AIREY|Solar Energy:Grid Parity|Sorry Ben,the big danger you have to watch out for is Utopianism,allied with a concentration of power,and this does not necessarily align with conventional political labels.The big virtue of political democracy,at least as practised in the USA and post-war Europe is that periodically you get a chance to kick the bastards out,which hopefully keeps them on their toes.The problem arises when you can't get shut of the sods and they use the levers of power to oppress anyone who disagrees with their way of thinking.In European terms both American political parties are pretty right wing and it doesn't help clarity of thought when you label anything to the left of Margaret Thatcher as Socialist and use it as a term of abuse,as it seems to be in the USA. Socialism,as defined by collective action to secure workers rights,freedoms etc,has had a generally positive run in Europe for much of the last century and it's why both the Nazis and the Communists used it in their party labels.Both had an element of Utopianism in their make up and god help anyone who didn't fit into their ideological pattern. You frequently get Utopianism in religion - hardline Muslims,say Iran and Al Quaeda would currently fit the bill perfectly - but Christianity can furnish plenty of examples as well. The thing that worries me about the Green movement,Global warming etc is that it's rapidly turning into a sort of secular religion.In fact it's probably at the stage where Socialism was at the beginning of the 20th century so we can probably expect some sort of green Stalin in the not too dim and distant.Tough luck on all us outspoken Anarchists when that happens cheers Andy Airey PS You seem to be having a political dustup about 'Socialist Medecin' at the moment.Considering that we spend about half the amount per capita on health that you do the NHS does a damn good job.Yes,it has faults,and could do with some reforms,but most people get a good deal out of it most of the time Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 20940|20939|2009-08-14 17:20:25|Knut F Garshol|Re: Solar Energy:Grid Parity|Andrew, thanks for expressing in more clear and elaborate terms what I also tried to convey when I voiced some opinions about the labels of "left" and "right". The fact that some of the loudmouths in the US are now one time naming Obama and other Democrats as communists and the other loudmouths calling them nazis (or Obaba = Hitler) is just showing how little they know about the labels they are using. I am personally on the right side where I come from, but in the US I know that many would call me communist without even blinking an eye. The real danger in any community is linked to a breakdown of checks and balances that are normally built into modern democratic systems. When one group (even a pretty small one) gets well enough organized and starts using scare tactics and may be even violence, that is when we enter the slipper slope to dictatorship. This applies whether we use the label communist (Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Castro etc) or fascist (Hitler, Mussolini etc.). The practical result is the same in both cases, that one relatively small group, without scruples or limitations may dominate everything in the community any way they want (= dictatorship). Some tendencies that anybody with eyes open can see in US politics and society the last decade are quite scary. I am still optimistic that common sense will prevail. It is certainly quite interesting to observe what is going on.... Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ANDREW AIREY Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 4:34 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Solar Energy:Grid Parity Sorry Ben,the big danger you have to watch out for is Utopianism,allied with a concentration of power,and this does not necessarily align with conventional political labels.The big virtue of political democracy,at least as practised in the USA and post-war Europe is that periodically you get a chance to kick the bastards out,which hopefully keeps them on their toes.The problem arises when you can't get shut of the sods and they use the levers of power to oppress anyone who disagrees with their way of thinking.In European terms both American political parties are pretty right wing and it doesn't help clarity of thought when you label anything to the left of Margaret Thatcher as Socialist and use it as a term of abuse,as it seems to be in the USA. Socialism,as defined by collective action to secure workers rights,freedoms etc,has had a generally positive run in Europe for much of the last century and it's why both the Nazis and the Communists used it in their party labels.Both had an element of Utopianism in their make up and god help anyone who didn't fit into their ideological pattern. You frequently get Utopianism in religion - hardline Muslims,say Iran and Al Quaeda would currently fit the bill perfectly - but Christianity can furnish plenty of examples as well. The thing that worries me about the Green movement,Global warming etc is that it's rapidly turning into a sort of secular religion.In fact it's probably at the stage where Socialism was at the beginning of the 20th century so we can probably expect some sort of green Stalin in the not too dim and distant.Tough luck on all us outspoken Anarchists when that happens cheers Andy Airey PS You seem to be having a political dustup about 'Socialist Medecin' at the moment.Considering that we spend about half the amount per capita on health that you do the NHS does a damn good job.Yes,it has faults,and could do with some reforms,but most people get a good deal out of it most of the time Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20941|20895|2009-08-14 18:01:48|Carl Anderson|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|I'm sorry, I assumed that you were referring to an origami sailboat. That is the focus of this group. Living on a 60 ton houseboat is something totally different. I apologize for any mistakes in my post as you have something totally different in mind. Carl gcode fi (hanermo) wrote: > > > Carl - My boat is a home .. not a camper. > > As such, I am halfway between the Nordhavn crowd, who cannot manage with > 12 kW gensets, and the typical sailboats, with 2 mid-size batteries. > > And ... I can absolutely, unequivocally state that I know how many > kWh/day, and how large a solar array I need. > Of course, I will be living in a 60 ton boat, and I have full cnc metal > workshop, with 7 axis lathes, 5 axis mills, plasma cutting equipment > etc. etc. all of which I can use to fix anyones stuff if and when they > need it, in the harbor/on the hook etc. The consumption of the tools on > a daily basis is more/less zero, as they are not going to be used more > than sometimes, ie at need. > > 2 kW is the minimum/optimum for *house* use. And I very much have > researched the issue. > It is not the one for survival use ... or a typical sailboat setup. > 2 kW + 3 kVa gives you a fridge, freezer, 2 pc´s, (led) lights, > watermaker for showers for 4, fresh-water flush (no odors), nav > instruments, radar at night if you want, 6 days with no genset. > Which of the above can you do with less ? > > House as in normal, common, 240 V efficient, cheap, silent large > comfortable appliances, available worlwide with zero maintenance and 6 > year avg. lifespan. > Please note the word efficient. And the word cheap. And the zero > maintenance. > > When you tell me I am way off base, you should consider what the use is, > where and what for etc. > The ONLY ones who say you dont want or need large amounts of free solar > electricity are the ones who have chosen to give up on normal > comfortable appliances, which is a lifestyle choice, usually due to > financial considerations. > This is fair enough - If I had just wanted to go, I would have done that > 6 years ago. And then most need to give up, for various reasons that > often have to do with lack of typical amenities. I chose to equip > myself, and then go with the amenities and an income stream (metal > workshop). > everyone choices are different - and I can well understand and > symphatise with other peoples choices. > > IF you had the power .. would you mind having an easy way to use any > normal appliance. > Would you mind having a large refrigerator, or 2 ? As in being able to > have more fresh stuff ? Cold drinks ? Milk ? Cokes ? Keep medicines cold ? > A radar at night ? > > Now .. when I sail, I do without any of the above, and vastly enjoy > myself. When I travel, likewise. > When I move onto my trawler, I will NOT do without runnning water, > normal toilets etc. as I cannot see any reason not to. > I also find it unnecessary and silly to not have power and very > desirable to more/less never need to run a genset. > > My power needs are for a metal workshop - and normal hotel loads. > > Wasteful power I consider air-conditioning (for us), stabilisers (poor > design, wrong hull, not fit for purpose), electric ovens. > TV I can take or leave, we dont have a TV antenna at this time (3 years). > > Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Anyway whoever thinks that you need a 2KW solar array is WAY, WAY off > > base and needs to do some research into sizing arrays, battery storage & > > load. > > > > Thanks for your time, > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > | 20942|20939|2009-08-14 21:15:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: Solar Energy:Grid Parity|On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 08:33:43PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Sorry Ben,the big danger you have to watch out for is > Utopianism,allied with a concentration of power,and this does not > necessarily align with conventional political labels. Well, Andrew, you have a point - when you come at it from a larger perspective, that is indeed the danger (I tend to label it as "fanaticism", but we're really talking about the same thing.) > The big virtue of political democracy,at least as practised in the USA > and post-war Europe is that periodically you get a chance to kick the > bastards out,which hopefully keeps them on their toes.The problem > arises when you can't get shut of the sods and they use the levers of > power to oppress anyone who disagrees with their way of thinking. [Nod] I was honestly stunned when Obama won. It may have just been that McCain and "oh-dear-god-you're-joking" Palin were just too implausible as the winners even for those who pull the strings. > In > European terms both American political parties are pretty right wing > and it doesn't help clarity of thought when you label anything to the > left of Margaret Thatcher as Socialist and use it as a term of > abuse,as it seems to be in the USA. I realize that; one of my wife's often-repeated statements is that in the US, she's a yellow-dog liberal while in Europe, she'd be a centrist. My political bent is quite different from hers, but I'd be pretty close to the center as well - on the European scale. Amusing aside: a German friend of mine recently sent me this pic, which I assume is intended to represent the US view of Europe plus a few other bits of the world. I found it hilarious. http://imagechan.com/img/7386/The%20World/ > You frequently get Utopianism in religion - hardline Muslims,say Iran > and Al Quaeda would currently fit the bill perfectly - but > Christianity can furnish plenty of examples as well. Oh, no argument from me. Religions have started more wars and killed more people that anything else. Even Hitler's whole political setup was ostensibly based around that "rightful heir of the Byzantine empire" nonsense. > The thing that worries me about the Green movement,Global warming etc > is that it's rapidly turning into a sort of secular religion. I can't speak for Europe, but here, we have the fundamentalist whackos shrieking about "junk science" and "theories" and every other kind of nonsense that they've used to keep people in the dark and under their thumbs for centuries. Global warming just happens to be their latest target. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20943|20943|2009-08-15 02:12:38|briannarobertsers|Free Stuff for Members to Share|Dear Members I have found another great page full of free-stuff you can collect INSTANTLY! There is so much to grab, its definately worth the visit. Simply click on the link below and it will take you directly to this amazing NEW freebie page! http://groups.google.com/group/freebieshare/web/freebies-august-15 Enjoy!| 20944|20944|2009-08-15 17:04:10|brentswain38|Turnbuckles|I just orderd a set of new 5/8th galvanised turnbuckles for less than I paid for them 25 years ago. Such a deal. I doubt if stainless would have lasted as many pacific crossings and year round cruising, and remained reliable. Dollar for dollar? Lets see. That would have required stainless ones to last at least 100 years of fulltime cruising, or more to be economically ahead, with ten times as many pacific crossings, and remain reliable. I doubt very much if that would be the case. This sime I will epoxy them, hockey tape them, then epoxy them some more. I will seal the threads with a 50-50 mix of white lead and tallow. I've heard of 100 year old shackles being easy to undo with such a mix in them. Brent| 20945|20944|2009-08-15 17:12:31|martin demers|Re: Turnbuckles|where do you get them? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 21:04:00 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Turnbuckles I just orderd a set of new 5/8th galvanised turnbuckles for less than I paid for them 25 years ago. Such a deal. I doubt if stainless would have lasted as many pacific crossings and year round cruising, and remained reliable. Dollar for dollar? Lets see. That would have required stainless ones to last at least 100 years of fulltime cruising, or more to be economically ahead, with ten times as many pacific crossings, and remain reliable. I doubt very much if that would be the case. This sime I will epoxy them, hockey tape them, then epoxy them some more. I will seal the threads with a 50-50 mix of white lead and tallow. I've heard of 100 year old shackles being easy to undo with such a mix in them. Brent _________________________________________________________________ Nous sommes vos photos. Partagez-nous dès maintenant avec Windows Live Photos. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666051 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20946|20895|2009-08-15 17:27:03|theboilerflue|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|well having visited with kate and carl just the other day in their boat let me tell you it is way more luxurious than a camper - and I would know since I lived in one for the last two years. Amazine that you can have an entire metal shop like that on a boat kinda makes me jealous but I don't think i have the room on a 36 footer (ten tonner) I was quite impressed by the fridge setup that they had on their boat and further so that it ran off the solar - we'll see how it does in the tropics (maybe you MOM folks will have to BUY a solar panel if you head south - Where did you get those for free?) At some point in the financial timeline I would like to have a system much like that since food does last one hell of a lot longer cold than not. But I have no need of a shower on my boat perhaps this is something that you are used to having always but one First Worlder must keep in mind that that is a luxury that most of the world lives without. I think of myself as very privileged by being able to head down to one of the two Rec centres or swimming pools and have a nice long hot shower at no cost most people do not have a luxury like that, having one right at home is really luxurious. So no I for one do not deem fresh water showers for four necessary and will not ever have one although I may at time to time install a large black plastic bag with a shower head up the mast. I have now been living on my boat with no power. Fresh water is at the sink, no shower, once i finish fucking around with the mast I have my LED nav lights and plan on having LED cabin lights but candles work quite well for now. I certainly don't feel that I'm living without any comforts.| 20947|20895|2009-08-15 19:06:41|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Canadian Tire has great LED lights in a mount, about 9 LEDs with a switch fo about $15. They only draw about 80 millimps. Karl can show you them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > well having visited with kate and carl just the other day in their boat let me tell you it is way more luxurious than a camper - and I would know since I lived in one for the last two years. > > Amazine that you can have an entire metal shop like that on a boat kinda makes me jealous but I don't think i have the room on a 36 footer (ten tonner) > > I was quite impressed by the fridge setup that they had on their boat and further so that it ran off the solar - we'll see how it does in the tropics (maybe you MOM folks will have to BUY a solar panel if you head south - Where did you get those for free?) At some point in the financial timeline I would like to have a system much like that since food does last one hell of a lot longer cold than not. But I have no need of a shower on my boat perhaps this is something that you are used to having always but one First Worlder must keep in mind that that is a luxury that most of the world lives without. I think of myself as very privileged by being able to head down to one of the two Rec centres or swimming pools and have a nice long hot shower at no cost most people do not have a luxury like that, having one right at home is really luxurious. So no I for one do not deem fresh water showers for four necessary and will not ever have one although I may at time to time install a large black plastic bag with a shower head up the mast. > I have now been living on my boat with no power. Fresh water is at the sink, no shower, once i finish fucking around with the mast I have my LED nav lights and plan on having LED cabin lights but candles work quite well for now. I certainly don't feel that I'm living without any comforts. > | 20948|20944|2009-08-15 19:31:05|theboilerflue|Re: Turnbuckles|And where did you get these Brent? I just missed the boat I guess bought mine at redden net in Campbell River at a shocking 32 dollars each too bad got most of my rig up though just the roller furler/forestay to go which seems to be a difficult thing to lift up there with out bending/breaking to much any suggestions? I got the wire covered in conduit and inside the aluminium pipe and the end crimped around a thimble just have to pull the thing up there. Me and three friends walked it from the farm to the marina fitted the cable through it than proceeded to break it in two getting it to the boat it broke right at the joint between the two 20 foot sections (I'm using the older 2x 1/2" pipe system). I bolted a plate across the break with i'm sure will hold just fine (wish i had re-enforced that weak spot with a welded plate but didn't think i would get much stress that way - but of course moving it would do that) Also funny thing with coal tar - I went into Cloverdale the other day to get a gallon of the stuff for my rigging and they just downright refused to sell it to me, said (and I quote) "I could go to jail if I sell you this paint" apparently I'm not certified enough and "the government has been cracking down" I argued with the manager of the store for ten minutes or so and called around to see if some one I knew had their HAZMAT spraying certification but they didn't so I left in disgust. I brooded in the truck for a little while went and did something else than went to General Paint and the conversation when like this: haidan: Hi I'd like to get some coal tar epoxy paint please counter person: well ... we have a few different size kits which would you like haidan: Oh just a gallon please counter person: Ok and she went a got a gallon and the curing agent and typed away in the computer and i paid for it and she got me the documentation on the stuff with the mixing ratios and such and I left. I don't know what was wrong with Cloverdale (maybe I forgot the magic word) but I didn't want to ask about it with the General Paint lady just in case she didn't know that this stuff was so dangerous in my uncertified little mitts. Carl said he had a similar encounter in CLoverdale but they eventually conceded by letting him sign a waver. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just orderd a set of new 5/8th galvanised turnbuckles for less than I paid for them 25 years ago. Such a deal. I doubt if stainless would have lasted as many pacific crossings and year round cruising, and remained reliable. Dollar for dollar? Lets see. That would have required stainless ones to last at least 100 years of fulltime cruising, or more to be economically ahead, with ten times as many pacific crossings, and remain reliable. I doubt very much if that would be the case. > This sime I will epoxy them, hockey tape them, then epoxy them some more. I will seal the threads with a 50-50 mix of white lead and tallow. I've heard of 100 year old shackles being easy to undo with such a mix in them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just orderd a set of new 5/8th galvanised turnbuckles for less than I paid for them 25 years ago. Such a deal. I doubt if stainless would have lasted as many pacific crossings and year round cruising, and remained reliable. Dollar for dollar? Lets see. That would have required stainless ones to last at least 100 years of fulltime cruising, or more to be economically ahead, with ten times as many pacific crossings, and remain reliable. I doubt very much if that would be the case. > This sime I will epoxy them, hockey tape them, then epoxy them some more. I will seal the threads with a 50-50 mix of white lead and tallow. I've heard of 100 year old shackles being easy to undo with such a mix in them. > Brent > | 20949|20895|2009-08-16 08:39:00|audeojude|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|I replaced all the cabin lights and running/mast lights with led's a few years ago on my boat and with every light on the boat inside and outside running it draws .8 amps according to my battery monitor system. 5 inside led fixturs with 20+ led's in each of them a bow light, stern light and two led bulbs in my masthead fixture. The running lights and mast head light work great. the cabin lights i have mixed reviews on. they work good and give enough light see well... however they are just enough below the brightness that is comfortable to read by that you have to slightly strain to read by them. Brent the 9 led lights you got that only draw 80 milliamps definitely will fall in this category.. they will be good for power consumption and general area lighting at night but will be a bit dim for specific tasks such as reading or working on something fine and close up. some of the newer bulbs and fixtures that put out high intensity warm yellow light.. much more natural light are really making a difference. They burn a bit more power than the older bulbs but the frequency of the light is easier to see by and much brighter. They still only burn in the .2 to .4 of an amp range.. I think a combination of the more efficient lower power units with specific task lights in the newer bulbs would be a good compromise. I just purchased a led light bar for 24 dollars that uses these new bulbs and it by itself can light up my whole cabin. I don't have the details in front of me right now. ok i dug this out of an old email it is a link to a web forum that I found these on. Might have to register to see it though. http://beneteau235.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3812 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Canadian Tire has great LED lights in a mount, about 9 LEDs with a switch fo about $15. They only draw about 80 millimps. Karl can show you them. > Brent > | 20950|20950|2009-08-16 12:43:59|theboilerflue|LED Lights|I am planning on building all of my LED lights for my cabin and nav lights I just breadboarded my first test light yesterday: Three green LEDs draws about 20 mA I'm driving them through a LM317 voltage regulator as I have heard that they tend to die from voltage spikes in a boat so the regulator should take care of that. 3 leds is about all one can power with 12volts (in series) as each one needs 3.2volt to drive them so yah 9 should be about 80mA (3x3 leds in parallel) Has anyone any experiances with doing this before they could pass along?| 20951|20939|2009-08-16 15:01:21|ANDREW AIREY|Solar Energy:Grid Parity|Before I got sidetracked onto politics Brent was asking about European car alternators. Fiat and Citroen used to do small ones,I think the Citroen one was fitted to the 2CV.If you want a smallish output to match the output of wind generator what about a motorcycle alternator? cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 20952|20944|2009-08-16 15:35:19|mickeyolaf|Re: Turnbuckles|Brent, Have you ever tried TEF GEL? I've been coating all my fastners with it as they are installed. The company claims stainless into aluminum/stainless on stainless will never gall. I quess my great grandsons will find out. I've been to a few mast building shops and they are using it. Where are your galvanized turnbuckles made? I have 100x more faith in my New Zealand stainless turnbuckles than I ever would in Chinese galvanized. I would trust North American manufactured galvanized fittings. I made the mistake years ago of buying a Chinese throttle control. The chrome peeled. The split rings rusted. The unit is a mess. A lesson learned. Since then I have bought from suppliers/countries who have quality control. Ports from Holland. Blocks from US etc. Clutches from England. When your t/buckles arrive you should look on the back of the box for their origin. A lot of company names we all trusted for tools and hardware have outsourced to Asia in the search for more profit. At the end users peril. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just orderd a set of new 5/8th galvanised turnbuckles for less than I paid for them 25 years ago. Such a deal. I doubt if stainless would have lasted as many pacific crossings and year round cruising, and remained reliable. Dollar for dollar? Lets see. That would have required stainless ones to last at least 100 years of fulltime cruising, or more to be economically ahead, with ten times as many pacific crossings, and remain reliable. I doubt very much if that would be the case. > This sime I will epoxy them, hockey tape them, then epoxy them some more. I will seal the threads with a 50-50 mix of white lead and tallow. I've heard of 100 year old shackles being easy to undo with such a mix in them. > Brent > | 20953|20953|2009-08-16 16:06:50|john dean|Starting a new boat?|I would like to come and help on a new hull. I live in the DR and will be coming to the US/Canada in November. I know the is not a nice time to be outdoors but I thought I'd check. Cheers, John Dean| 20954|20895|2009-08-16 16:43:57|David Frantz|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Hi Ben; I have some free time to respond to this but I'm not sure if it is best for the thread. What puts me over hte edge is your characterization of somebody that does not buy into the current political climate. That doesn't mean I'm right of center rather that life has laid bare a few realities to me. So I will hit upon a few of your issues below. 1. As to Rush L. I've heard of him but honestly I don't listen to the Radio much at all. I haven't had it on in my truck in years and seldom at home. As to the comment about controlling every bit of our lives I stand by the comment, the left is much worst than the right when it comes to meddling in ones private affairs. 2. As to listening to demagogues and ignorance take a very long look in the mirror. A good portion of Obamas mission is based on ignorance, you can't reasonably support him or the left and expect people with free minds to support you. 3. It is interesting that you think that the left is about wealth distribution (as if that is a good thing) when history has shown repeatedly that people end up poorer when subjected to such bullshit. Oh and that social support you seem to be so excited about is nothing but modern slavery and a government promoted class system. Doubt that; then consider looking at any inner city slum in any city in America, where we now have multiple generations of dependent people. 4. Now that doesn't mean we don't help people in need but that is a far cry from what we have done up and till this point. Instead we remove all incentive for individual initiative, self respect, respect for the law and set up generations to remain on the dole. The left is clearly nothing more than the economies of the old south with a new mask. 5. Your characterization of the right is down right stupid and doesn't reflect any reality I'm aware of. The right is about making your own way and your own wealth, and not stealing it from others. As to controls I can't possibly see how you can even say that, really, where do you think all the initiatives come from to control life on this planet. It is not the right which would rather have as few controls on them and the market place as is possible and reasonable. This one little statement from you highlight a lack of awareness of what si going on in the world. 6. So yeah it is the Democrats that are all about control. Its true if you are big business, a little business, an individual trying to live his life or a public servant. You should not that Washington is all a buzz of late because all the departments of government that have been throttled in their desire to control your life think they are free again to institute burdensome regulation. 7. Your view of the political landscape is a bit simplistic anyways. Many of us do not consider ourself the member of any one political party. Certainly in my case I'm more Libertarian than either Democrat or Republican. 8. As to Planetary Scum I was trying to be polite and I think you know damn well what I meant by that. I'm not sure what it does for you to twist it into racism when it has nothing to do with that, and you should realize the word Planetary encompasses the whole of the planet. There are some terrible evil people in this world and keeping them out of the country should be a very high priority. Further you should realize that has nothing to do with racism and I take great offense to your characterization of people, who have a little respect for life, that way. I have had the good fortune of working with people that have literally come from all over the world, many literally escaping horrors beyond comprehension, but I suspect that each and everyone of them would support my position that there are many people you don't want to let into this country. Really, Ben think about it a bit; would you be happy if you took refuge in a foreign country, after seeing the rest of your family exterminated and found that ten years later the doors are wide open to the very people that so drastically altered your life. I doubt you would be happy nor anybody reading this thread, it is an imperative that we have standards to entry into this country. Frankly a lot of these people are not happy to see the Obama administration kissing up to the despots of the world, not for political reasons but because of the pain it causes them. ---------------------------- Anyway this is really taking the boat down the wrong stream. It may be cruising related but it hardly is related to building boats. Dave Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 06:21:05PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > >> As to the control freak thinking we currently have a very left wing >> leaning government that wants controls over every bit of our lives. >> > > Funny you should phrase it that way, David. Been listening to much Rush > Limbaugh lately? You appear to be using his technique of accusing the > left of classic right-winger behavior, which is just laughable - it only > works on people who are so ignorant of basic politics, history, and > economics that they _have_ to listen to demagogues so that they'll know > what to think (and I use that term in a very restricted sense.) > > Let me remind you of what you've forgotten: the left is called "the > left" because they are politically left of center. That means more > wealth distribution among the people, more social supports (e.g., > welfare), fewer class barriers - in general, a more "power to the > people" approach. The far end of the scale in that direction is > socialism - say, something like the Swedish economic system. > > The right, on the other hand, is *right* of center - am I making myself > clear yet? That means more wealth concentration in the hands of a small > number, fewer social supports, more controls, and a more hierarchical, > totalitarian structure. The far end of the scale in *that* direction is > totalitarianism - something like Russia during the communist era, or > Hitler's Germany. > > Thus endeth the basic lesson in politics. Now, for the sixty-four dollar > question: *which* party is it, again, that's all about control? > > >> The right simply wanted to keep the plantary scum out of the >> country. So you really have to ask which is worst. >> > > I guess that would be "plantary scum" like me; I'm a Russian immigrant. > Or possibly my wife, whose parents came here from Japan. Or maybe - the > right's current favorite stalking horse for their racism - Obama's > father. "Plantary" scum, all of us. > > Please tell me - keeping in mind that your last name is "FRANTZ" - what > kind of "plantary scum", exactly, should be kept out, and when should > that policy have started? > > > | 20955|20953|2009-08-16 17:25:00|David Frantz|Back to boating tech.|The discussions related to alternative energy systems is very interesting and hopefully still open for discussion. One area of concern is always batteries for such system. Here http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html is some new tech that might actually make it to market. Http://www.ceramatec.com/ is a Coorstek company, yes the same Coors we all love, so this is no fly by night operation. Hopefully this means the battery will become a reality. There is of course a question of the final product being suitable for a boat of any type but there is a lot of promise in what I see. No matter what your power supply; solar cells, windmills, sailing or whatever if you are going to use power you need a way to store it when that generation source is no longer available. Considering that current battery tech has a lot of negatives an improvement would certainly be welcomed. As to statements on solar cells and the drop in prices recently that is directly due to a slump in demand for semiconductor grade silicon. If demand for wafers go up the price of the modules will go up. Further because the cells used are big chunks of silicon you don't get the advantages of smaller feature size you see in the electronics industries. Further many improvements that are being researched for semiconductor based solar panels imply more processing steps to the panels. So I don't see a continual fall in the price of the current silicon based panels. What will be interesting in the next year or two are the possibilities of polymer based solar panels. The problem being efficiencies of the panel so on a boat you may be compelled to use silicon to simply save space. What does all this mean? Well I take it to mean we are not there yet for a new round of technology improvements. Costs are better right now but there is a question of how long that will go on. The reality is todays systems are not that much different than systems from twenty years ago baring electronic controls improvements. Dave| 20956|20950|2009-08-16 17:46:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: LED Lights|On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 04:42:53PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > I am planning on building all of my LED lights for my cabin and nav > lights I just breadboarded my first test light yesterday: Three green > LEDs draws about 20 mA I'm driving them through a LM317 voltage > regulator as I have heard that they tend to die from voltage spikes in > a boat so the regulator should take care of that. 3 leds is about all > one can power with 12volts (in series) as each one needs 3.2volt to > drive them so yah 9 should be about 80mA (3x3 leds in parallel) Has > anyone any experiances with doing this before they could pass along? Sure - parallel them and use however many you want. Please note that you shouldn't just parallel the LEDs themselves, since the slightly-variant voltage drop across them would just cause them to burn out one after another; instead, connect each LED in series with the appropriate resistor (i.e., max current of 20mA at max voltage - say, 14.4v while you're running your engine - works out to (14.4-3.2)/.020=560 ohms), then parallel all your LED/resistor sets, as many as you'd like: ______ ______ ______ ______ ______ ______ +12v | | | | | | z z z z z z z 560 z 560 z 560 z 560 z 560 z 560 z z z z z z | | | | | | V LED V LED V LED V LED V LED V LED _ _ _ _ _ _ Gnd | | | | | | ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ Also, I wouldn't rely on just the regulator to block spikes; their response time isn't all that good. Put a couple of capacitors - say, a .001µF and a 1µF tantalum with at least a 50V rating - across the regulator input; that should protect both it and the LEDs. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20957|20953|2009-08-16 18:25:17|brentswain38|Re: Starting a new boat?|Ask again in november. I have nothing on the horizon at the moment, but that could change. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john dean wrote: > > I would like to come and help on a new hull. I live in the DR and will be coming to the US/Canada in November. I know the is not a nice time to be outdoors but I thought I'd check. > > Cheers, John Dean > | 20958|20895|2009-08-16 18:30:54|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Yes mine are bit on the dim side for reading, but I see Karl reading all winter long with one just over his shoulder. I was wondering if one could get a better light just by throwing a few orange or red ones into the mix of white bulbs. Brent s these new bulbs and it by itself can light up my whole cabin. I don't have the details in front of me right now. > ok i dug this out of an old email it is a link to a web forum that I found these on. > Might have to register to see it though. > http://beneteau235.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3812 > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Canadian Tire has great LED lights in a mount, about 9 LEDs with a switch fo about $15. They only draw about 80 millimps. Karl can show you them. > > Brent > > > | 20959|20895|2009-08-16 18:53:16|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|The right is about control, corporate control, the golden rule, where those who have the gold make the rules. If the left is about control it is by those we have the power to thow out if we feel the urge, not the case with corporate dictatorship. A good example is the right wing US, where huge areas of land are owned outright by timber corporations, whereas in further to the left Canada, most of it is publicly owned and we are free to camp , hike, hunt and fish over huge areas of public land, without having to grovel to a corporation. The right, by advocating elimination of minimum wages and labour protection laws, is about stealing the fruits of their labours, with no accountability or public reponsibility. Their main goal is, and has always been, to widen the gap between rich and poor, for fun and profit. Fredom for the rick at the expense of freedom for the poor. They are elitsit by nature. Right wing governments in Central America in the 80's are good examples of this. Health care is another example. With private health care their main objectived is to find w a way to weasel out of paying ,whereas with public health care, such a strategy leaves an even greater liability and expense down the road. If we are going to have big government I much prefer big government by those who depend on my vote to that of corporate government who needent give a rats ass what I think. So they want minimum government? Who do they go whining to for subsidies ? Government. Who runs the courts to whom they take their complaints ? Government.Who educates their kids? Government. Who pays the police who guard their wealth? Government. Who builds maintains and clears the highways they are so dependent on? Government. Who maintains the ports and aids to navigation they depend on? government.The list goes on and on and on. Corporate welfare is the proper name for what they advocate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Ben; > > I have some free time to respond to this but I'm not sure if it is best > for the thread. What puts me over hte edge is your characterization of > somebody that does not buy into the current political climate. That > doesn't mean I'm right of center rather that life has laid bare a few > realities to me. So I will hit upon a few of your issues below. > > 1. > As to Rush L. I've heard of him but honestly I don't listen to the Radio > much at all. I haven't had it on in my truck in years and seldom at > home. As to the comment about controlling every bit of our lives I > stand by the comment, the left is much worst than the right when it > comes to meddling in ones private affairs. > 2. > As to listening to demagogues and ignorance take a very long look in the > mirror. A good portion of Obamas mission is based on ignorance, you > can't reasonably support him or the left and expect people with free > minds to support you. > 3. > It is interesting that you think that the left is about wealth > distribution (as if that is a good thing) when history has shown > repeatedly that people end up poorer when subjected to such bullshit. > Oh and that social support you seem to be so excited about is nothing > but modern slavery and a government promoted class system. Doubt that; > then consider looking at any inner city slum in any city in America, > where we now have multiple generations of dependent people. > 4. > Now that doesn't mean we don't help people in need but that is a far cry > from what we have done up and till this point. Instead we remove all > incentive for individual initiative, self respect, respect for the law > and set up generations to remain on the dole. The left is clearly > nothing more than the economies of the old south with a new mask. > 5. > Your characterization of the right is down right stupid and doesn't > reflect any reality I'm aware of. The right is about making your own > way and your own wealth, and not stealing it from others. As to > controls I can't possibly see how you can even say that, really, where > do you think all the initiatives come from to control life on this > planet. It is not the right which would rather have as few controls on > them and the market place as is possible and reasonable. This one > little statement from you highlight a lack of awareness of what si going > on in the world. > 6. > So yeah it is the Democrats that are all about control. Its true if you > are big business, a little business, an individual trying to live his > life or a public servant. You should not that Washington is all a buzz > of late because all the departments of government that have been > throttled in their desire to control your life think they are free again > to institute burdensome regulation. > 7. > Your view of the political landscape is a bit simplistic anyways. > Many of us do not consider ourself the member of any one political > party. Certainly in my case I'm more Libertarian than either Democrat > or Republican. > 8. > As to Planetary Scum I was trying to be polite and I think you know damn > well what I meant by that. I'm not sure what it does for you to twist > it into racism when it has nothing to do with that, and you should > realize the word Planetary encompasses the whole of the planet. There > are some terrible evil people in this world and keeping them out of the > country should be a very high priority. Further you should realize > that has nothing to do with racism and I take great offense to your > characterization of people, who have a little respect for life, that > way. I have had the good fortune of working with people that have > literally come from all over the world, many literally escaping horrors > beyond comprehension, but I suspect that each and everyone of them would > support my position that there are many people you don't want to let > into this country. > > Really, Ben think about it a bit; would you be happy if you took refuge > in a foreign country, after seeing the rest of your family exterminated > and found that ten years later the doors are wide open to the very > people that so drastically altered your life. I doubt you would be > happy nor anybody reading this thread, it is an imperative that we have > standards to entry into this country. Frankly a lot of these people > are not happy to see the Obama administration kissing up to the despots > of the world, not for political reasons but because of the pain it > causes them. > > ---------------------------- > > Anyway this is really taking the boat down the wrong stream. It may be > cruising related but it hardly is related to building boats. > > > > Dave > > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 06:21:05PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > >> As to the control freak thinking we currently have a very left wing > >> leaning government that wants controls over every bit of our lives. > >> > > > > Funny you should phrase it that way, David. Been listening to much Rush > > Limbaugh lately? You appear to be using his technique of accusing the > > left of classic right-winger behavior, which is just laughable - it only > > works on people who are so ignorant of basic politics, history, and > > economics that they _have_ to listen to demagogues so that they'll know > > what to think (and I use that term in a very restricted sense.) > > > > Let me remind you of what you've forgotten: the left is called "the > > left" because they are politically left of center. That means more > > wealth distribution among the people, more social supports (e.g., > > welfare), fewer class barriers - in general, a more "power to the > > people" approach. The far end of the scale in that direction is > > socialism - say, something like the Swedish economic system. > > > > The right, on the other hand, is *right* of center - am I making myself > > clear yet? That means more wealth concentration in the hands of a small > > number, fewer social supports, more controls, and a more hierarchical, > > totalitarian structure. The far end of the scale in *that* direction is > > totalitarianism - something like Russia during the communist era, or > > Hitler's Germany. > > > > Thus endeth the basic lesson in politics. Now, for the sixty-four dollar > > question: *which* party is it, again, that's all about control? > > > > > >> The right simply wanted to keep the plantary scum out of the > >> country. So you really have to ask which is worst. > >> > > > > I guess that would be "plantary scum" like me; I'm a Russian immigrant. > > Or possibly my wife, whose parents came here from Japan. Or maybe - the > > right's current favorite stalking horse for their racism - Obama's > > father. "Plantary" scum, all of us. > > > > Please tell me - keeping in mind that your last name is "FRANTZ" - what > > kind of "plantary scum", exactly, should be kept out, and when should > > that policy have started? > > > > > > > | 20960|20939|2009-08-16 18:55:06|brentswain38|Solar Energy:Grid Parity|Motorcycle alternator or outboard alternator? Hadn't thought of that. Have to ask the alternator experts. Thanks Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Before I got sidetracked onto politics Brent was asking about European car alternators. > Fiat and Citroen used to do small ones,I think the Citroen one was fitted to the 2CV.If you want a smallish output to match the output of wind generator what about a motorcycle alternator? > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 20961|20953|2009-08-16 19:03:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: Back to boating tech.|On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 05:21:06PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > The discussions related to alternative energy systems is very > interesting and hopefully still open for discussion. One area of > concern is always batteries for such system. Here > http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html > is some new tech that might actually make it to market. > Http://www.ceramatec.com/ is a Coorstek company, yes the same Coors we > all love, so this is no fly by night operation. Hopefully this means > the battery will become a reality. There's a tremendous amount of battery and fuel cell research that's reached the results stage recently. Much of it will be hitting the market within the next year or two - which supports the "avalanche effect" theory of lower prices and commoditization of solar power. I do note that Dan Nocera is on the Ceramatec board, which to my mind at least, gives them a lot of credibility. > As to statements on solar cells and the drop in prices recently that is > directly due to a slump in demand for semiconductor grade silicon. You, of course, would know better than the professionals in the field who were interviewed for the article that you've just cited. According to them, Now the cost is tumbling, driven by new thin-film chemistry and manufacturing techniques. Leaders in the field include companies like Arizona-based First Solar, which can paint solar cells onto glass; and Konarka, an upstart that purchased a defunct Polaroid film factory in New Bedford, Mass., and now plans to print cells onto rolls of flexible plastic. Personally, I'll take the pros opinions on this one - since they support my own research and long experience in this field. > Further > because the cells used are big chunks of silicon you don't get the > advantages of smaller feature size you see in the electronics > industries. [sigh] Let me translate the word "silicon" for you, David: in short, it's *sand*. Silicon is one of the cheapest, most available materials out there; second most abundant element on Earth. Lab-grade silicon goes for less than $2 per pound - and a large PV cell contains _maybe_ an ounce of it. And this "big chunks" theory of yours? Sorry, you're wrong again. If you can _paint_ or _print_ solar cells - and this is what Arco and the above-cited companies are doing - then there are no "big chunks" involved. It's clear that you don't know what a PV cell is, or how it's made, or what the relevant economic drivers are. Why not read up and find out? Wikipedia has a pretty good entry on the basics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell Please note particularly the section on thin films - i.e., the current generation of PV panels. I quote explicitly from that section: It is commonly accepted that as manufacturing techniques evolve production costs will be dominated by constituent material requirements, whether this be a silicon substrate, or glass cover. In case you missed the point: the *largest* cost in producing PV panels is going to be either the silicon substrate or the glass - i.e., they're so close in cost that one or the other will determine the lowest point to which the cost of the panels can fall. In essence, not much more than two panes of glass. > What does all this mean? Well I take it to mean we are not there yet > for a new round of technology improvements. "We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, In accents most forlorn, Outside the church, ere Mass began, One frosty Sunday morn. [...] "The crops are done; ye'll have your work To save one bag of grain; From here way out to Back-o'-Bourke They're singin' out for rain. [...] "If we don't get three inches, man, Or four to break this drought, We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "Before the year is out." In God's good time down came the rain; And all the afternoon On iron roof and window-pane It drummed a homely tune. [...] And, oh, the smiles on every face, As happy lad and lass Through grass knee-deep on Casey's place Went riding down to Mass. "There'll be bush-fires for sure, me man, There will, without a doubt; We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "Before the year is out." -- John O'Brien, "Said Hanrahan" Enjoy your pessimism, David. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20962|20950|2009-08-16 19:03:42|Carl Anderson|Thanks Alex|Alex, Thank you for the nice picture of MOM that is on the origami site main page. Carl & Kate sv-mom.com| 20963|20895|2009-08-16 19:57:35|martin demers|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|your right wing description is exactly what is explained and fear in a few "new world order plan" videos on the net, if everything becomes owned by private corporations around the world who will want to control everythimg you buy and sale, where will be our freedom! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 22:53:08 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Solar energy: Grid parity The right is about control, corporate control, the golden rule, where those who have the gold make the rules. If the left is about control it is by those we have the power to thow out if we feel the urge, not the case with corporate dictatorship. A good example is the right wing US, where huge areas of land are owned outright by timber corporations, whereas in further to the left Canada, most of it is publicly owned and we are free to camp , hike, hunt and fish over huge areas of public land, without having to grovel to a corporation. The right, by advocating elimination of minimum wages and labour protection laws, is about stealing the fruits of their labours, with no accountability or public reponsibility. Their main goal is, and has always been, to widen the gap between rich and poor, for fun and profit. Fredom for the rick at the expense of freedom for the poor. They are elitsit by nature. Right wing governments in Central America in the 80's are good examples of this. Health care is another example. With private health care their main objectived is to find w a way to weasel out of paying ,whereas with public health care, such a strategy leaves an even greater liability and expense down the road. If we are going to have big government I much prefer big government by those who depend on my vote to that of corporate government who needent give a rats ass what I think. So they want minimum government? Who do they go whining to for subsidies ? Government. Who runs the courts to whom they take their complaints ? Government.Who educates their kids? Government. Who pays the police who guard their wealth? Government. Who builds maintains and clears the highways they are so dependent on? Government. Who maintains the ports and aids to navigation they depend on? government.The list goes on and on and on. Corporate welfare is the proper name for what they advocate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Ben; > > I have some free time to respond to this but I'm not sure if it is best > for the thread. What puts me over hte edge is your characterization of > somebody that does not buy into the current political climate. That > doesn't mean I'm right of center rather that life has laid bare a few > realities to me. So I will hit upon a few of your issues below. > > 1. > As to Rush L. I've heard of him but honestly I don't listen to the Radio > much at all. I haven't had it on in my truck in years and seldom at > home. As to the comment about controlling every bit of our lives I > stand by the comment, the left is much worst than the right when it > comes to meddling in ones private affairs. > 2. > As to listening to demagogues and ignorance take a very long look in the > mirror. A good portion of Obamas mission is based on ignorance, you > can't reasonably support him or the left and expect people with free > minds to support you. > 3. > It is interesting that you think that the left is about wealth > distribution (as if that is a good thing) when history has shown > repeatedly that people end up poorer when subjected to such bullshit. > Oh and that social support you seem to be so excited about is nothing > but modern slavery and a government promoted class system. Doubt that; > then consider looking at any inner city slum in any city in America, > where we now have multiple generations of dependent people. > 4. > Now that doesn't mean we don't help people in need but that is a far cry > from what we have done up and till this point. Instead we remove all > incentive for individual initiative, self respect, respect for the law > and set up generations to remain on the dole. The left is clearly > nothing more than the economies of the old south with a new mask. > 5. > Your characterization of the right is down right stupid and doesn't > reflect any reality I'm aware of. The right is about making your own > way and your own wealth, and not stealing it from others. As to > controls I can't possibly see how you can even say that, really, where > do you think all the initiatives come from to control life on this > planet. It is not the right which would rather have as few controls on > them and the market place as is possible and reasonable. This one > little statement from you highlight a lack of awareness of what si going > on in the world. > 6. > So yeah it is the Democrats that are all about control. Its true if you > are big business, a little business, an individual trying to live his > life or a public servant. You should not that Washington is all a buzz > of late because all the departments of government that have been > throttled in their desire to control your life think they are free again > to institute burdensome regulation. > 7. > Your view of the political landscape is a bit simplistic anyways. > Many of us do not consider ourself the member of any one political > party. Certainly in my case I'm more Libertarian than either Democrat > or Republican. > 8. > As to Planetary Scum I was trying to be polite and I think you know damn > well what I meant by that. I'm not sure what it does for you to twist > it into racism when it has nothing to do with that, and you should > realize the word Planetary encompasses the whole of the planet. There > are some terrible evil people in this world and keeping them out of the > country should be a very high priority. Further you should realize > that has nothing to do with racism and I take great offense to your > characterization of people, who have a little respect for life, that > way. I have had the good fortune of working with people that have > literally come from all over the world, many literally escaping horrors > beyond comprehension, but I suspect that each and everyone of them would > support my position that there are many people you don't want to let > into this country. > > Really, Ben think about it a bit; would you be happy if you took refuge > in a foreign country, after seeing the rest of your family exterminated > and found that ten years later the doors are wide open to the very > people that so drastically altered your life. I doubt you would be > happy nor anybody reading this thread, it is an imperative that we have > standards to entry into this country. Frankly a lot of these people > are not happy to see the Obama administration kissing up to the despots > of the world, not for political reasons but because of the pain it > causes them. > > ---------------------------- > > Anyway this is really taking the boat down the wrong stream. It may be > cruising related but it hardly is related to building boats. > > > > Dave > > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 06:21:05PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > >> As to the control freak thinking we currently have a very left wing > >> leaning government that wants controls over every bit of our lives. > >> > > > > Funny you should phrase it that way, David. Been listening to much Rush > > Limbaugh lately? You appear to be using his technique of accusing the > > left of classic right-winger behavior, which is just laughable - it only > > works on people who are so ignorant of basic politics, history, and > > economics that they _have_ to listen to demagogues so that they'll know > > what to think (and I use that term in a very restricted sense.) > > > > Let me remind you of what you've forgotten: the left is called "the > > left" because they are politically left of center. That means more > > wealth distribution among the people, more social supports (e.g., > > welfare), fewer class barriers - in general, a more "power to the > > people" approach. The far end of the scale in that direction is > > socialism - say, something like the Swedish economic system. > > > > The right, on the other hand, is *right* of center - am I making myself > > clear yet? That means more wealth concentration in the hands of a small > > number, fewer social supports, more controls, and a more hierarchical, > > totalitarian structure. The far end of the scale in *that* direction is > > totalitarianism - something like Russia during the communist era, or > > Hitler's Germany. > > > > Thus endeth the basic lesson in politics. Now, for the sixty-four dollar > > question: *which* party is it, again, that's all about control? > > > > > >> The right simply wanted to keep the plantary scum out of the > >> country. So you really have to ask which is worst. > >> > > > > I guess that would be "plantary scum" like me; I'm a Russian immigrant. > > Or possibly my wife, whose parents came here from Japan. Or maybe - the > > right's current favorite stalking horse for their racism - Obama's > > father. "Plantary" scum, all of us. > > > > Please tell me - keeping in mind that your last name is "FRANTZ" - what > > kind of "plantary scum", exactly, should be kept out, and when should > > that policy have started? > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Attention à tous les Humains. Nous sommes vos photos. Libérez-nous de vos disques durs. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666050 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20964|20895|2009-08-16 20:59:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 04:43:04PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > Hi Ben; > > I have some free time to respond to this but I'm not sure if it is best > for the thread. What puts me over hte edge is your characterization of > somebody that does not buy into the current political climate. Actually, my characterization was of someone who had swallowed the neo-cons' talking points, hook, line, and sinker. If you chose to jump over the edge about that, I hope you brought your parachute. > That > doesn't mean I'm right of center rather that life has laid bare a few > realities to me. Oh yes - the "reality" argument, straight from Fox News. Your "reality" beats everyone else's hands down, of course - because you said so! David, unless you come up with something original, you really have nothing to say about politics that would interest me in the slightest. I've heard it all before, and if I wanted to hear any more of it, Karl Rove is still spouting the original venom that you all try to imitate. No need for me to get it second-hand. I do, however, reserve the right to laugh at the inanities and the insanities of the neo-con agenda whenever that drum gets pounded. By the way: you spend your time here on this list, where you get to reap the benefit of the generosity of a "leftie" named Brent Swain - a man who practices his political beliefs by giving away an incredibly valuable resource, his time and his effort and his ability to design some of the best cruising boats ever created - and you have the gall to talk crap about how horrible the left is, and how they're all about control and taking everything away from people? This demonstrates perfectly how the right is all about goodness and light and paying for what you get. > Anyway this is really taking the boat down the wrong stream. It may be > cruising related but it hardly is related to building boats. Good suggestion. Let's just stick to boats, and this will be a much more peaceful forum to be in. I don't mind talking solar power or electrical systems with you - but let's leave the politics out of it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20965|20895|2009-08-16 21:43:01|Paul Wilson|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|I have been quiet lately due to a crappy internet connection that requires standing on one leg, wearing tin foil on my head, and holding my computer with arms stretched over my head. The marina wifi antenna is far too far away.... Anyway, I can't resist sending this link to an article that seems quite appropriate to this thread, even if it has nothing to do with origami boats or solar energy. My apologies. http://theburningplatform.com/economy/animal-farm-2009 Cheers, Paul Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 04:43:04PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Ben; > > > > I have some free time to respond to this but I'm not sure if it is best > > for the thread. What puts me over hte edge is your characterization of > > somebody that does not buy into the current political climate. > > Actually, my characterization was of someone who had swallowed the > neo-cons' talking points, hook, line, and sinker. If you chose to jump > over the edge about that, I hope you brought your parachute. > > > That > > doesn't mean I'm right of center rather that life has laid bare a few > > realities to me. > > Oh yes - the "reality" argument, straight from Fox News. Your "reality" > beats everyone else's hands down, of course - because you said so! > > David, unless you come up with something original, you really have > nothing to say about politics that would interest me in the slightest. > I've heard it all before, and if I wanted to hear any more of it, Karl > Rove is still spouting the original venom that you all try to imitate. > No need for me to get it second-hand. I do, however, reserve the right > to laugh at the inanities and the insanities of the neo-con agenda > whenever that drum gets pounded. > > By the way: you spend your time here on this list, where you get to reap > the benefit of the generosity of a "leftie" named Brent Swain - a man > who practices his political beliefs by giving away an incredibly > valuable resource, his time and his effort and his ability to design > some of the best cruising boats ever created - and you have the gall to > talk crap about how horrible the left is, and how they're all about > control and taking everything away from people? This demonstrates > perfectly how the right is all about goodness and light and paying for > what you get. > > > Anyway this is really taking the boat down the wrong stream. It may be > > cruising related but it hardly is related to building boats. > > Good suggestion. Let's just stick to boats, and this will be a much more > peaceful forum to be in. I don't mind talking solar power or electrical > systems with you - but let's leave the politics out of it. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2306 - Release Date: 08/16/09 06:09:00 > > | 20966|20895|2009-08-16 23:00:58|Chris Salayka|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Thanks Paul for the link -- very synchronistic! and good! Just to add some fuel to the fire, saw 'District 9' today -- very much a satire with clear message. Also appreciate your humour. And this interesting and curious thread on building steel boats . . . Chris Freedom is Paradise ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 6:42:48 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Solar energy: Grid parity I have been quiet lately due to a crappy internet connection that requires standing on one leg, wearing tin foil on my head, and holding my computer with arms stretched over my head. The marina wifi antenna is far too far away.... Anyway, I can't resist sending this link to an article that seems quite appropriate to this thread, even if it has nothing to do with origami boats or solar energy. My apologies. http://theburningpl atform.com/ economy/animal- farm-2009 Cheers, Paul Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 04:43:04PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Ben; > > > > I have some free time to respond to this but I'm not sure if it is best > > for the thread. What puts me over hte edge is your characterization of > > somebody that does not buy into the current political climate. > > Actually, my characterization was of someone who had swallowed the > neo-cons' talking points, hook, line, and sinker. If you chose to jump > over the edge about that, I hope you brought your parachute. > > > That > > doesn't mean I'm right of center rather that life has laid bare a few > > realities to me. > > Oh yes - the "reality" argument, straight from Fox News. Your "reality" > beats everyone else's hands down, of course - because you said so! > > David, unless you come up with something original, you really have > nothing to say about politics that would interest me in the slightest. > I've heard it all before, and if I wanted to hear any more of it, Karl > Rove is still spouting the original venom that you all try to imitate. > No need for me to get it second-hand. I do, however, reserve the right > to laugh at the inanities and the insanities of the neo-con agenda > whenever that drum gets pounded. > > By the way: you spend your time here on this list, where you get to reap > the benefit of the generosity of a "leftie" named Brent Swain - a man > who practices his political beliefs by giving away an incredibly > valuable resource, his time and his effort and his ability to design > some of the best cruising boats ever created - and you have the gall to > talk crap about how horrible the left is, and how they're all about > control and taking everything away from people? This demonstrates > perfectly how the right is all about goodness and light and paying for > what you get. > > > Anyway this is really taking the boat down the wrong stream. It may be > > cruising related but it hardly is related to building boats. > > Good suggestion. Let's just stick to boats, and this will be a much more > peaceful forum to be in. I don't mind talking solar power or electrical > systems with you - but let's leave the politics out of it. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2306 - Release Date: 08/16/09 06:09:00 > > __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20967|20967|2009-08-17 00:57:45|briannarobertsers|Free Stuff for Members (August 17th)|Dear Members I have found another great page full of free-stuff you can collect INSTANTLY! There is so much to grab, its definately worth the visit. Simply click on the link below and it will take you directly to this amazing NEW freebie page! http://groups.google.com/group/freebieshare/web/freebies-august-17 Enjoy!| 20968|20895|2009-08-17 03:05:32|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|As some one that dose not listen to Rush at all or Fox very often or most the main stream media. As a business owner I find this to be a respons strait out of the Democratic Socalist Party. No dought Ben is a member in good standing. When the first settlers came to America the first year they tried socalisum and nearly parished it is in normal history books on James Town. Again in the 60s and 70s it was tried on communes that are all gone with others still trying it today and failing. As a American Indian if you don't like it leave and go where they do it your way you have a world cruser. On health care the big socalist topic today try reading HB3200 http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf Concider that fraud is 20% of what is payed out in Medacare and Medacade. The feds public employees and unions can opt out the rest of us have to jump through hoops or lose our private that nearly 70% want left alone. When you get to the part where it only pays $5000 per person and $10000 a family per year tell us how that is not rationing or people will not loss all they have worked for. On welfair tell me how providing more then in houseing medical and income then poverty level is a hand up not a hand out. It is a form of slavery people can't afford to get away from. Bought votes. Offer one a job requiering them to start out like anyother employee and they will not take it. On Cap and Tax the fokes down under just voted it down to help save there econamy knowing it si now cooling and that the whole AGW CO2 crap was a con job. Dec. in Copenhagen should be interesting but then even Al Gore said when VP we would not sign Kyoto unless the big developing countries did. All these isues are about pulling the wool over peoples eyes promoted by goverment officals and corperations seeking power and controle over people or big proffets. Only uniformed sheep let it happen. The scariest phrase is "We are from the government and are here to help you" constitutionaly there only job is to protect us fromenamies from abrode and within. Jon Off for the week to make a living to not need the governments unneeded help through free market well it still exist. Dont forget to click the heals of your jackboots. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 04:43:04PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > Hi Ben; > > > > I have some free time to respond to this but I'm not sure if it is best > > for the thread. What puts me over hte edge is your characterization of > > somebody that does not buy into the current political climate. > > Actually, my characterization was of someone who had swallowed the > neo-cons' talking points, hook, line, and sinker. If you chose to jump > over the edge about that, I hope you brought your parachute. > > > That > > doesn't mean I'm right of center rather that life has laid bare a few > > realities to me. > > Oh yes - the "reality" argument, straight from Fox News. Your "reality" > beats everyone else's hands down, of course - because you said so! > > David, unless you come up with something original, you really have > nothing to say about politics that would interest me in the slightest. > I've heard it all before, and if I wanted to hear any more of it, Karl > Rove is still spouting the original venom that you all try to imitate. > No need for me to get it second-hand. I do, however, reserve the right > to laugh at the inanities and the insanities of the neo-con agenda > whenever that drum gets pounded. > > By the way: you spend your time here on this list, where you get to reap > the benefit of the generosity of a "leftie" named Brent Swain - a man > who practices his political beliefs by giving away an incredibly > valuable resource, his time and his effort and his ability to design > some of the best cruising boats ever created - and you have the gall to > talk crap about how horrible the left is, and how they're all about > control and taking everything away from people? This demonstrates > perfectly how the right is all about goodness and light and paying for > what you get. > > > Anyway this is really taking the boat down the wrong stream. It may be > > cruising related but it hardly is related to building boats. > > Good suggestion. Let's just stick to boats, and this will be a much more > peaceful forum to be in. I don't mind talking solar power or electrical > systems with you - but let's leave the politics out of it. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20969|20895|2009-08-17 11:00:52|Ben Okopnik|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 07:05:19AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > As some one that dose not listen to Rush at all or Fox very often or > most the main stream media. Right, Jon & Wanda(Tink). You've always been the thoughtful, balanced political commentator here - with spelling and grammar that matches your brilliance. I guess it's time to renew your membership in my trash bin again - this time, permanently. I'm not even sure why I granted you the privilege of making it temporary, the last time. Bye-bye, stupid ranter! *PLONK* -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20970|20953|2009-08-17 11:56:01|Donal Philby|Alt energy hitch|One possible hitch in the alternative energy drive is the supply of rare earth metals. These are used for batteries (cell phones and cars), solar panels, wind generators (the permanent magnets of neodymium), nuclear plants, and more, and are indeed "rare." In fact, China holds 97 percent of in ground supply and is cutting export and hoarding, generating complaints from other nations to the WTO. Twenty five pounds of rare earths are found in a Toyota Prius in battery and motor: lanthanum and neodynium. A large wind gen requires hundreds of pounds per MW. There are 17 rare earths such as germanium, indium, holmium and others most of us have never heard of. Australia, Canada and the US hold (so far) the known balance of sites. Only 12 sites on the planet have been found to hold rare earths. So it is going to take more than a white sandy beach to take us into the next round of energy generation, and there is bound to be some politics and power plays involved. My wife and I have begun a trickle of investments in this area. The irony is that at a time of peak oil production, the alternatives have their own set of peak supply issues. Perhaps the earth (and the universe) is telling us something about rampant consumption. donal| 20971|20953|2009-08-17 14:04:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: Alt energy hitch|On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 03:55:38PM -0000, Donal Philby wrote: > > One possible hitch in the alternative energy drive is the supply of > rare earth metals. These are used for batteries (cell phones and > cars), solar panels, wind generators (the permanent magnets of > neodymium), nuclear plants, and more, and are indeed "rare." In > fact, China holds 97 percent of in ground supply and is cutting export > and hoarding, generating complaints from other nations to the WTO. The first part of what you say is true enough: PV cells, particularly the current generation, do indeed require rare-earth metals (tellurium, specifically - since the basis of thin-film panels is CdTe). However, I'm afraid that you've been misled about the source: although China has discovered some tellurium-rich ores in Xinju, this says nothing about the rest of the world. Have you ever heard of Telluride, Colorado? Or the fact that the most common source of tellurium is a by-product of copper refining? The US has quite a large copper industry; so does much of South America. It's true enough that the global production figures for tellurium are rather small now - but that's because there hasn't been any demand for it. According to Wikipedia's article on CdTe PV cells, Recently, researchers have added an unusual twist – astrophysicists identify tellurium as the most abundant element in the universe with an atomic number over 40. This surpasses, e.g., heavier materials like tin, bismuth, and lead, which are common. Researchers have shown that well-known undersea ridges (which are now being evaluated for their economic recoverability) are rich in tellurium and by themselves could supply more tellurium than we could ever use for all of our global energy. Now, as to actual figures (same source): There is about 3 g/cm³ Te in CdTe. One micrometre over a square meter area is 1 cubic centimetre, or 3 grams of Te. Typical CdTe layer thicknesses are about 3 micrometres, so there are 9 g/m^2. At 10% efficiency, one gigawatt is 7.32 km^2, or 66 tonnes. However, it takes only about 0.5 micrometre thickness to absorb 90% of the sunlight in a CdTe layer. If cells were this thick, six times less Te would be needed per gigawatt, or 11 tonnes/GW. Note that whatever Te is unused in processing will be recycled and used. At 11T/GW, even at current rates of production, there's enough Te being produced to make 12 *gigawatts* worth of solar panels every year - without any involvement from China. > Twenty five pounds of rare earths are found in a Toyota Prius in > battery and motor: lanthanum and neodynium. A large wind gen > requires hundreds of pounds per MW. I haven't looked into those, but we can have that discussion another day. This one was specifically about PV cells and grid parity. > Australia, Canada and the US hold (so far) the known balance of sites. > Only 12 sites on the planet have been found to hold rare earths. Again, I don't know where you got that statement, but it's wrong. Rare earths are found everywhere, but in different concentrations. Some years ago, I went up to Northern California with a couple of friends to do a bit of hard rock gold mining; when we took the stuff to the processor to be assayed, he found tantalum in it - which immediately brought in the US government, since tantalum is used in producing deuterium. A quick declaration of eminent domain, and the US now owns a rare-earth production site. Happens all the time. > So > it is going to take more than a white sandy beach to take us into the > next round of energy generation, and there is bound to be some > politics and power plays involved. Are you saying that those *aren't* involved in fossil fuel energy? :) > My wife and I have begun a trickle of investments in this area. The > irony is that at a time of peak oil production, the alternatives have > their own set of peak supply issues. Perhaps the earth (and the > universe) is telling us something about rampant consumption. There, Donal, we're in complete agreement. Doubling our (already ridiculous) level of energy consumption in the last thirty years is just beyond all reason. That's why my preferred approach is both about reducing consumption _and_ replacing fossil fuels with renewable resources. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20972|20953|2009-08-17 14:30:06|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Alt energy hitch|Agree 100% with reducing consumption. And very much in favor of getting my own grid-independence. If I never need to pay for power consumption, well ... FSRL says PV is now doable at the 1$/W level ... Buying a big PV setup, and not using fossil fuels to run hotel loads seems to me to be a very sensible solution. And giving very long range, and very safe independent liveaboard possibilities. When you have unlimkited drinking water, showers, loos and tools, your possibilities are very, very good. With (probabaly cheap) long range IT, it should be possible to be mostly moving ...| 20973|20939|2009-08-17 16:03:41|John Fisher|Re: Solar Energy:Grid Parity|Motorcycle alternators are usually built into the bike. They tend to have a fixed coil with a rotating magnet. Usually the magnets go right on the crank and the fixed field mounts to the engine cases. Might work, but would require some fabrication to complete the unit. John -------Original Message------- From: ANDREW AIREY Date: 8/16/2009 1:01:27 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Solar Energy:Grid Parity Before I got sidetracked onto politics Brent was asking about European car alternators. Fiat and Citroen used to do small ones,I think the Citroen one was fitted to the 2CV.If you want a smallish output to match the output of wind generator what about a motorcycle alternator? cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ---------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2309 - Release Date: 08/17/09 06:08:00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20974|20920|2009-08-17 19:46:25|bufalowbob1939|Re: To paint or stick on??|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi All: I'm looking at putting the name on Prairie Maid before the weather goes into the deep freeze once again. I was wondering if anyone has had experience with those pre made vinyl letter systems or am I better off to explore my artistic side and try to paint it on??? As usual your thoughts are appreciated. Martin. > I have use pre made vinyl letters for years. They last for about five years. They are cheep. If you use the letters the first time they make a good patter for you when you do paint the name on.| 20975|20939|2009-08-17 19:51:17|brentswain38|Solar Energy:Grid Parity|Is the magnet at a permanent magnet? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Fisher" wrote: > > Motorcycle alternators are usually built into the bike. They tend to have a > fixed coil with a rotating magnet. Usually the magnets go right on the > crank and the fixed field mounts to the engine cases. Might work, but would > require some fabrication to complete the unit. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: ANDREW AIREY > Date: 8/16/2009 1:01:27 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Solar Energy:Grid Parity > > Before I got sidetracked onto politics Brent was asking about European car > alternators. > Fiat and Citroen used to do small ones,I think the Citroen one was fitted to > the 2CV.If you want a smallish output to match the output of wind generator > what about a motorcycle alternator? > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > ---------- > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2309 - Release Date: 08/17/09 06:08:00 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20976|20944|2009-08-17 19:53:27|brentswain38|Re: Turnbuckles|I bought them at Ocean Pacific in Campbell river, for $21.16 each. They cost me $26 , 25 years ago. I also needed some liquid electrical tape, but their price was $18, compared to the going rate of $7. I'll let the buyers of electrical tape subsidise my turnbuckles. They are 5/8th inch jaw both ends galv open body. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > where do you get them? > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 21:04:00 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Turnbuckles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just orderd a set of new 5/8th galvanised turnbuckles for less than I paid for them 25 years ago. Such a deal. I doubt if stainless would have lasted as many pacific crossings and year round cruising, and remained reliable. Dollar for dollar? Lets see. That would have required stainless ones to last at least 100 years of fulltime cruising, or more to be economically ahead, with ten times as many pacific crossings, and remain reliable. I doubt very much if that would be the case. > > This sime I will epoxy them, hockey tape them, then epoxy them some more. I will seal the threads with a 50-50 mix of white lead and tallow. I've heard of 100 year old shackles being easy to undo with such a mix in them. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Nous sommes vos photos. Partagez-nous dès maintenant avec Windows Live Photos. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666051 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20977|20953|2009-08-17 19:56:54|brentswain38|Re: Back to boating tech.|Lookin foreward to the paint on solar panels that I've been hearing about in the media. My decks would give enough juice to run my motor. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 05:21:06PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > > The discussions related to alternative energy systems is very > > interesting and hopefully still open for discussion. One area of > > concern is always batteries for such system. Here > > http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html > > is some new tech that might actually make it to market. > > Http://www.ceramatec.com/ is a Coorstek company, yes the same Coors we > > all love, so this is no fly by night operation. Hopefully this means > > the battery will become a reality. > > There's a tremendous amount of battery and fuel cell research that's > reached the results stage recently. Much of it will be hitting the > market within the next year or two - which supports the "avalanche > effect" theory of lower prices and commoditization of solar power. > > I do note that Dan Nocera is on the Ceramatec board, which to my mind at > least, gives them a lot of credibility. > > > As to statements on solar cells and the drop in prices recently that is > > directly due to a slump in demand for semiconductor grade silicon. > > You, of course, would know better than the professionals in the field > who were interviewed for the article that you've just cited. According > to them, > > Now the cost is tumbling, driven by new thin-film chemistry and > manufacturing techniques. Leaders in the field include companies like > Arizona-based First Solar, which can paint solar cells onto glass; and > Konarka, an upstart that purchased a defunct Polaroid film factory in > New Bedford, Mass., and now plans to print cells onto rolls of flexible > plastic. > > Personally, I'll take the pros opinions on this one - since they support > my own research and long experience in this field. > > > Further > > because the cells used are big chunks of silicon you don't get the > > advantages of smaller feature size you see in the electronics > > industries. > > [sigh] Let me translate the word "silicon" for you, David: in short, > it's *sand*. Silicon is one of the cheapest, most available materials > out there; second most abundant element on Earth. Lab-grade silicon goes > for less than $2 per pound - and a large PV cell contains _maybe_ an > ounce of it. > > And this "big chunks" theory of yours? Sorry, you're wrong again. If you > can _paint_ or _print_ solar cells - and this is what Arco and the > above-cited companies are doing - then there are no "big chunks" > involved. > > It's clear that you don't know what a PV cell is, or how it's made, or > what the relevant economic drivers are. Why not read up and find out? > Wikipedia has a pretty good entry on the basics. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell > > Please note particularly the section on thin films - i.e., the current > generation of PV panels. I quote explicitly from that section: > > It is commonly accepted that as manufacturing techniques evolve > production costs will be dominated by constituent material > requirements, whether this be a silicon substrate, or glass cover. > > In case you missed the point: the *largest* cost in producing PV panels > is going to be either the silicon substrate or the glass - i.e., they're > so close in cost that one or the other will determine the lowest point > to which the cost of the panels can fall. In essence, not much more than > two panes of glass. > > > What does all this mean? Well I take it to mean we are not there yet > > for a new round of technology improvements. > > "We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, > In accents most forlorn, > Outside the church, ere Mass began, > One frosty Sunday morn. > > [...] > > "The crops are done; ye'll have your work > To save one bag of grain; > From here way out to Back-o'-Bourke > They're singin' out for rain. > > [...] > > "If we don't get three inches, man, > Or four to break this drought, > We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, > "Before the year is out." > > In God's good time down came the rain; > And all the afternoon > On iron roof and window-pane > It drummed a homely tune. > > [...] > > And, oh, the smiles on every face, > As happy lad and lass > Through grass knee-deep on Casey's place > Went riding down to Mass. > > "There'll be bush-fires for sure, me man, > There will, without a doubt; > We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, > "Before the year is out." > > -- John O'Brien, "Said Hanrahan" > > > Enjoy your pessimism, David. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 20978|20895|2009-08-17 20:05:19|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|When I asked some left of centre doctors what the solution to fraud in the public health care system is, they said "Put doctors on a flat salary and eliminate the greed factor. " One would have to be incredibly dense to believe that the private sector, who's health care costs ten times as much for a given operation, has less than 20% fraud. The whole thing is fraud. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > As some one that dose not listen to Rush at all or Fox very often or most the main stream media. As a business owner I find this to be a respons strait out of the Democratic Socalist Party. No dought Ben is a member in good standing. When the first settlers came to America the first year they tried socalisum and nearly parished it is in normal history books on James Town. Again in the 60s and 70s it was tried on communes that are all gone with others still trying it today and failing. As a American Indian if you don't like it leave and go where they do it your way you have a world cruser. On health care the big socalist topic today try reading HB3200 > http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf > Concider that fraud is 20% of what is payed out in Medacare and Medacade. The feds public employees and unions can opt out the rest of us have to jump through hoops or lose our private that nearly 70% want left alone. When you get to the part where it only pays $5000 per person and $10000 a family per year tell us how that is not rationing or people will not loss all they have worked for. > On welfair tell me how providing more then in houseing medical and income then poverty level is a hand up not a hand out. It is a form of slavery people can't afford to get away from. Bought votes. Offer one a job requiering them to start out like anyother employee and they will not take it. > On Cap and Tax the fokes down under just voted it down to help save there econamy knowing it si now cooling and that the whole AGW CO2 crap was a con job. Dec. in Copenhagen should be interesting but then even Al Gore said when VP we would not sign Kyoto unless the big developing countries did. > All these isues are about pulling the wool over peoples eyes promoted by goverment officals and corperations seeking power and controle over people or big proffets. Only uniformed sheep let it happen. > The scariest phrase is "We are from the government and are here to help you" constitutionaly there only job is to protect us fromenamies from abrode and within. > > Jon > > Off for the week to make a living to not need the governments unneeded help through free market well it still exist. Dont forget to click the heals of your jackboots. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 04:43:04PM -0400, David Frantz wrote: > > > Hi Ben; > > > > > > I have some free time to respond to this but I'm not sure if it is best > > > for the thread. What puts me over hte edge is your characterization of > > > somebody that does not buy into the current political climate. > > > > Actually, my characterization was of someone who had swallowed the > > neo-cons' talking points, hook, line, and sinker. If you chose to jump > > over the edge about that, I hope you brought your parachute. > > > > > That > > > doesn't mean I'm right of center rather that life has laid bare a few > > > realities to me. > > > > Oh yes - the "reality" argument, straight from Fox News. Your "reality" > > beats everyone else's hands down, of course - because you said so! > > > > David, unless you come up with something original, you really have > > nothing to say about politics that would interest me in the slightest. > > I've heard it all before, and if I wanted to hear any more of it, Karl > > Rove is still spouting the original venom that you all try to imitate. > > No need for me to get it second-hand. I do, however, reserve the right > > to laugh at the inanities and the insanities of the neo-con agenda > > whenever that drum gets pounded. > > > > By the way: you spend your time here on this list, where you get to reap > > the benefit of the generosity of a "leftie" named Brent Swain - a man > > who practices his political beliefs by giving away an incredibly > > valuable resource, his time and his effort and his ability to design > > some of the best cruising boats ever created - and you have the gall to > > talk crap about how horrible the left is, and how they're all about > > control and taking everything away from people? This demonstrates > > perfectly how the right is all about goodness and light and paying for > > what you get. > > > > > Anyway this is really taking the boat down the wrong stream. It may be > > > cruising related but it hardly is related to building boats. > > > > Good suggestion. Let's just stick to boats, and this will be a much more > > peaceful forum to be in. I don't mind talking solar power or electrical > > systems with you - but let's leave the politics out of it. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 20979|20953|2009-08-17 20:07:38|brentswain38|Re: Alt energy hitch|I once hitched a ride with a BC Hydro tecnician who told me of a guy with a remote cabin near a high tension power line. He put a ground mat under a low point in the line and powered his house for ten years, before Hydro caught on. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > > Agree 100% with reducing consumption. > > And very much in favor of getting my own grid-independence. > If I never need to pay for power consumption, well ... > > FSRL says PV is now doable at the 1$/W level ... > > Buying a big PV setup, and not using fossil fuels to run hotel loads > seems to me to be a very sensible solution. > And giving very long range, and very safe independent liveaboard > possibilities. > When you have unlimkited drinking water, showers, loos and tools, your > possibilities are very, very good. > > With (probabaly cheap) long range IT, it should be possible to be mostly > moving ... > | 20980|20944|2009-08-17 20:49:19|pynrc@aol.com|Re: Turnbuckles|I have found over the long term that wrapping gal turnbuckles in Denso tape ( available from plumbers supplies store, is a kind of hemp tape covered with lanolin) and then wrapping that in gaffer tape is a cheap and very effective protection. Regards, Richard.________________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE AOL Email account with unlimited storage. Experience Email and instant messaging together - chat while you mail and mail while you chat! Register for your free email account at http://free.aol.com.au [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20981|20953|2009-08-17 22:15:59|Chris Salayka|Re: Alt energy hitch|Hi Here's a link to a new battery technology -- hooked up with solar if the battery works as advertised it will be the answer -- and is cost effective. Chris http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html Freedom is Paradise ________________________________ From: gcode fi (hanermo) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 11:29:31 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Alt energy hitch Agree 100% with reducing consumption. And very much in favor of getting my own grid-independence. If I never need to pay for power consumption, well ... FSRL says PV is now doable at the 1$/W level ... Buying a big PV setup, and not using fossil fuels to run hotel loads seems to me to be a very sensible solution. And giving very long range, and very safe independent liveaboard possibilities. When you have unlimkited drinking water, showers, loos and tools, your possibilities are very, very good. With (probabaly cheap) long range IT, it should be possible to be mostly moving ... __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20982|20944|2009-08-17 22:31:06|Keith Green|Re: Turnbuckles|I don't post on here much but this thread caught my eye. Do you have a preferred brand for the brush-on electrical tape? What various uses have you found for it on your boats? Thanks, Keith Green Surrey, BC brentswain38 wrote: > I bought them at Ocean Pacific in Campbell river, for $21.16 each. They cost me $26 , 25 years ago. I also needed some liquid electrical tape, but their price was $18, compared to the going rate of $7. I'll let the buyers of electrical tape subsidise my turnbuckles. They are 5/8th inch jaw both ends galv open body. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > >> where do you get them? >> >> >> | 20983|20983|2009-08-18 04:21:16|briannarobertsers|offer: free football jersey's!|Hi There! Grab a FREE Football Jersey! (usa only offer) They have 32 Teams to Choose from! A friend sent me the following link from their freebie group. Check it out! http://groups.google.com/group/collectingfreebies/web/free-football-jerseys-usa-only I have applied for myself, and even though you have to participate in some surveys to collect the offer..its well worth it!| 20984|20939|2009-08-18 08:59:56|John Fisher|Re: Solar Energy:Grid Parity|Yes, magnets are permanent on most alternators. Some of the old Yamaha ones are excited field (brush and coils), but I have not seen that used for a long time. Motocross bikes are usually an internal magnet with an external coil and trail/street bikes are usually internal coil/external magnet for more power. There is also a company called Ricky coil that rewinds the fields for more power. John -------Original Message------- From: brentswain38 Date: 8/17/2009 5:51:23 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Solar Energy:Grid Parity Is the magnet at a permanent magnet? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Fisher" wrote: > > Motorcycle alternators are usually built into the bike. They tend to have a > fixed coil with a rotating magnet. Usually the magnets go right on the > crank and the fixed field mounts to the engine cases. Might work, but would > require some fabrication to complete the unit. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: ANDREW AIREY > Date: 8/16/2009 1:01:27 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Solar Energy:Grid Parity > > Before I got sidetracked onto politics Brent was asking about European car > alternators. > Fiat and Citroen used to do small ones,I think the Citroen one was fitted to > the 2CV.If you want a smallish output to match the output of wind generator > what about a motorcycle alternator? > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > ---------- > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2309 - Release Date: 08/17/09 06:08:00 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ---------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.59/2310 - Release Date: 08/17/09 18:04:00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20985|20895|2009-08-18 11:45:50|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|Sorry All!  Ben....where do you get off calling anybody a "stupid ranter". You captured that title a long time ago. Perhaps you would be better off to keep your thoughts to yourself ..... or, better yet, leave the Origami site. G ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik  Date: Monday, August 17, 2009 8:01 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Solar energy: Grid parity To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 07:05:19AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > > As some one that dose not listen to Rush at all or Fox very > often or > > most the main stream media. > > Right, Jon & Wanda(Tink). You've always been the thoughtful, balanced > political commentator here - with spelling and grammar that > matches your > brilliance. > > I guess it's time to renew your membership in my trash bin again > - this > time, permanently. I'm not even sure why I granted you the > privilege of > making it temporary, the last time. Bye-bye, stupid ranter! > > *PLONK* > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 20986|20939|2009-08-18 15:11:21|brentswain38|Solar Energy:Grid Parity|Permanent magnet alternators are ideal for wind generators. All old motorcycle engines eventually end up in scrapyards and I don't suppose it would be hard to cut the relevant alternator parts out with a hacksaw, and add a few approriate bearings in the relevant places. Brent. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Fisher" wrote: > > Yes, magnets are permanent on most alternators. Some of the old Yamaha ones > are excited field (brush and coils), but I have not seen that used for a > long time. Motocross bikes are usually an internal magnet with an external > coil and trail/street bikes are usually internal coil/external magnet for > more power. There is also a company called Ricky coil that rewinds the > fields for more power. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: brentswain38 > Date: 8/17/2009 5:51:23 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Solar Energy:Grid Parity > > Is the magnet at a permanent magnet? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Fisher" wrote: > > > > Motorcycle alternators are usually built into the bike. They tend to have > a > > fixed coil with a rotating magnet. Usually the magnets go right on the > > crank and the fixed field mounts to the engine cases. Might work, but > would > > require some fabrication to complete the unit. > > > > John > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: ANDREW AIREY > > Date: 8/16/2009 1:01:27 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Solar Energy:Grid Parity > > > > Before I got sidetracked onto politics Brent was asking about European car > > alternators. > > Fiat and Citroen used to do small ones,I think the Citroen one was fitted > to > > the 2CV.If you want a smallish output to match the output of wind > generator > > what about a motorcycle alternator? > > cheers > > Andy Airey > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2309 - Release Date: 08/17/09 > 06:08:00 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ---------- > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.59/2310 - Release Date: 08/17/09 18:04:00 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20987|20895|2009-08-18 15:15:39|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|We Canadians live in a free country where freedom of speech is guaranteed in out constitution. Any one who can't aqccept that is free to leave to a country more to their likeing. I would suggest Burma. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, GORDON SCHNELL wrote: > > Sorry All! > Ben....where do you get off calling anybody a "stupid ranter". You captured that title a long time ago. Perhaps you would be better off to keep your thoughts to yourself ..... or, better yet, leave the Origami site. > G > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ben Okopnik > Date: Monday, August 17, 2009 8:01 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Solar energy: Grid parity > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 07:05:19AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > > > > As some one that dose not listen to Rush at all or Fox very > > often or > > > most the main stream media. > > > > Right, Jon & Wanda(Tink). You've always been the thoughtful, balanced > > political commentator here - with spelling and grammar that > > matches your > > brilliance. > > > > I guess it's time to renew your membership in my trash bin again > > - this > > time, permanently. I'm not even sure why I granted you the > > privilege of > > making it temporary, the last time. Bye-bye, stupid ranter! > > > > *PLONK* > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 20988|20895|2009-08-18 16:05:00|sae140|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > We Canadians live in a free country where freedom of speech is guaranteed in out constitution. Some guarantee. See: http://www.canadianfreespeech.com| 20989|20939|2009-08-18 17:16:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Solar Energy:Grid Parity|>>>>>Permanent magnet alternators are ideal for wind generators. All old motorcycle engines eventually end up in scrapyards and I don't suppose it would be hard to cut the relevant alternator parts out with a hacksaw, and add a few appropriate bearings in the relevant places. It really depends at what speed they are designed to run. You can have high speed or low speed permanent magnet motors. Only the low speed ones will really work as a wind generator. You need to find one that will put out at least 12 volts at ideally 200 rpm or less. If you make your own blades, they will be likely large diameter to get the power out of the wind and you will have a lower rpm unit than the higher speed, multi-blade wind generators. I know nothing about motorcycles, but my guess is that the alternators are designed to run at high rpm and would put out little voltage at the low speeds that a wind generator runs at. You Adding a gearbox usually adds too much friction to make it worthwhile. There is such a demand for low rpm, high voltage PM motors that used ones are very hard to find compared to a few years ago. If motor cycle alternators are really workable, you should be able to find lots of people on the internet who have already done it since there are so many alternate energy experimenters out and about. I once got some old Bell 206 helicopter tail rotor blades, an old PM motor that put out over 72 volts at about 600(?) rpm and made a wind generator. It really put out the juice but was kind of scary with the 5 foot diameter blades spinning around just over your head. It also killed a lot of birds when I was offshore. I learned to really hate the noise even though I took great pains to balance it properly and had an automatic governor that prevented it from over-speeding. It went bye-bye in a bad squall one night while I was ashore and I confess I wasn't sorry to see it go. Too bad it took out a solar panel on the way :(. I love my solar panels and think cost per watt per pain in the ass factor over time that they win hands down. The problem is its hard to find places on a small boat for lots of panels. Cheers, Paul| 20990|20939|2009-08-18 17:19:44|jfisher@wildblue.net|Re: Solar Energy:Grid Parity|Motorcycle alternators would be designed to run at crank speed so 1000 to 15000 rpm depending on the bike. John Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Paul Wilson Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:16:25 To: Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Solar Energy:Grid Parity >>>>>Permanent magnet alternators are ideal for wind generators. All old motorcycle engines eventually end up in scrapyards and I don't suppose it would be hard to cut the relevant alternator parts out with a hacksaw, and add a few appropriate bearings in the relevant places. It really depends at what speed they are designed to run. You can have high speed or low speed permanent magnet motors. Only the low speed ones will really work as a wind generator. You need to find one that will put out at least 12 volts at ideally 200 rpm or less. If you make your own blades, they will be likely large diameter to get the power out of the wind and you will have a lower rpm unit than the higher speed, multi-blade wind generators. I know nothing about motorcycles, but my guess is that the alternators are designed to run at high rpm and would put out little voltage at the low speeds that a wind generator runs at. You Adding a gearbox usually adds too much friction to make it worthwhile. There is such a demand for low rpm, high voltage PM motors that used ones are very hard to find compared to a few years ago. If motor cycle alternators are really workable, you should be able to find lots of people on the internet who have already done it since there are so many alternate energy experimenters out and about. I once got some old Bell 206 helicopter tail rotor blades, an old PM motor that put out over 72 volts at about 600(?) rpm and made a wind generator. It really put out the juice but was kind of scary with the 5 foot diameter blades spinning around just over your head. It also killed a lot of birds when I was offshore. I learned to really hate the noise even though I took great pains to balance it properly and had an automatic governor that prevented it from over-speeding. It went bye-bye in a bad squall one night while I was ashore and I confess I wasn't sorry to see it go. Too bad it took out a solar panel on the way :(. I love my solar panels and think cost per watt per pain in the ass factor over time that they win hands down. The problem is its hard to find places on a small boat for lots of panels. Cheers, Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20991|20939|2009-08-18 19:44:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Solar Energy:Grid Parity|On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 05:16:25PM -0400, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I once got some old Bell 206 helicopter tail rotor blades, an old PM > motor that put out over 72 volts at about 600(?) rpm and made a wind > generator. It really put out the juice but was kind of scary with the 5 > foot diameter blades spinning around just over your head. It also > killed a lot of birds when I was offshore. I learned to really hate the > noise even though I took great pains to balance it properly and had an > automatic governor that prevented it from over-speeding. It went > bye-bye in a bad squall one night while I was ashore and I confess I > wasn't sorry to see it go. Too bad it took out a solar panel on the way > :(. Same thing happened to a friend of mine, when he was off the Turks & Caicos. His wind-gen prop shaft broke, the prop came whirring down, stuck a blade through one of his solar panels, bounced, put a blade through the _remaining_ solar panel, then went overboard. Since Jerry was on a trimaran, he didn't have a big engine to drive an alternator, and he didn't have that much fuel for his outboard. He spent a miserable week limping to Puerto Rico in very light winds. When he told me that story, I told him it sounded like his WG was jealous of the solar panels, and committed suicide just so he could take them out. Your experience proves my point. :) > I love my solar panels and think cost per watt per pain in the ass > factor over time that they win hands down. The problem is its hard to > find places on a small boat for lots of panels. If you follow Brent's idea of solid lifelines, you could have quite a number of panels that folded down while under way and could be tilted back into position at anchor. I realize that coming into marinas and such could get a bit crunchy if you're not careful, but a bit of engineering or forward planning (or both) should take care of that issue. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 20992|20939|2009-08-18 20:10:21|brentswain38|Solar Energy:Grid Parity|So much for the motor cycle idea I put my 5 ft diameter blade on a post at the stern so I really have to reach to touch it. Not a problem. I packed it's 1 7/8th diameter pipe in a 3 inch pipe with lots of foam around it so the noise is minimal. Balance it by a string in the middle of the hub. Only one seagull was dumb enought hover behind it for a while while it was spining. He never got the nerve to check it closer , and I haven't see a bird that dense since. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > >>>>>Permanent magnet alternators are ideal for wind generators. All > old motorcycle engines eventually end up in scrapyards and I don't > suppose it would be hard to cut the relevant alternator parts out with a > hacksaw, and add a few appropriate bearings in the relevant places. > > It really depends at what speed they are designed to run. You can have > high speed or low speed permanent magnet motors. Only the low speed > ones will really work as a wind generator. You need to find one that > will put out at least 12 volts at ideally 200 rpm or less. If you make > your own blades, they will be likely large diameter to get the power out > of the wind and you will have a lower rpm unit than the higher speed, > multi-blade wind generators. I know nothing about motorcycles, but my > guess is that the alternators are designed to run at high rpm and would > put out little voltage at the low speeds that a wind generator runs at. > You Adding a gearbox usually adds too much friction to make it > worthwhile. There is such a demand for low rpm, high voltage PM motors > that used ones are very hard to find compared to a few years ago. If > motor cycle alternators are really workable, you should be able to find > lots of people on the internet who have already done it since there are > so many alternate energy experimenters out and about. > > I once got some old Bell 206 helicopter tail rotor blades, an old PM > motor that put out over 72 volts at about 600(?) rpm and made a wind > generator. It really put out the juice but was kind of scary with the 5 > foot diameter blades spinning around just over your head. It also > killed a lot of birds when I was offshore. I learned to really hate the > noise even though I took great pains to balance it properly and had an > automatic governor that prevented it from over-speeding. It went > bye-bye in a bad squall one night while I was ashore and I confess I > wasn't sorry to see it go. Too bad it took out a solar panel on the way > :(. I love my solar panels and think cost per watt per pain in the ass > factor over time that they win hands down. The problem is its hard to > find places on a small boat for lots of panels. > > Cheers, Paul > | 20993|20895|2009-08-18 20:21:24|brentswain38|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|On Cruisers Forum, questioning the supreme authority of big brother is forbidden. They support posts which advocate apathetic compliance with the demands of big brother, and juistify their abuses, but any posts which inform people of their legal rights in dealing with big brother get deleted. Who runs cruisers forum? Big Brother of course. Thats why I only check the site for occasional messages and try to avoid posting anything usefull there, which may give them some credibilty they don't deserve. Anyone with questions I can answer, can ask them on other forums. With the right having had a strangle hold on information, you can expect that the freedom the internet provides come as a great cultural shock to them, and their mouthpieces. While big brother may not support freedom of speech , it's up to us individuals to support it, any way we can. Our freeddoms are a lot more intact than those of our southern neighbours. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > We Canadians live in a free country where freedom of speech is guaranteed in out constitution. > > Some guarantee. See: http://www.canadianfreespeech.com > | 20994|20939|2009-08-18 21:35:15|Paul Wilson|Re: Solar Energy:Grid Parity|My wind generator worked great if there were no waves at anchor and it worked great offshore when the boat was rolling and pitching at the same time. The problem was at anchor with pitching due to a short chop. I would never have a two blade wind generator again for this reason. If you look at a two blade generator frozen in time in a pitching boat at anchor, when the blades are horizontal they are twisting about their axis. The moment or force is minimal since it is like grabbing the blade and twirling it with your wrist. When the blade is vertical, it moves through a great arc with the boat going through a fast pitch. Its like grabbing the blade a wagging it through the air....much more force involved. Gyroscopic effects cause the reactive force to react 90 degrees to actual force so the wind generator vibrates even though everything is statically balanced....the forces involved with the blades vertical are much more than with the blades horizontal. Even with a perfectly balanced blades, in those conditions, it will shake everything to bits. A 3 or 4 blade generator doesn't have this problem since the forces of blades being horizontal versus blades being vertical are not so great since with 3 or 4 blades spaced around the hub they cancel each other. The night I lost my wind generator, I was in Suvarov and it was blowing 25 to 30 knots from the south over a large lagoon and there were about 6 to 8 foot waves going through the anchorage. The waves were going right over the deck and the anchor line was trying to jump out of the bow roller. The gyroscopic effect shook the wind generator so bad it snapped the 5/8 inch shaft of the motor..... not a good night, but Suvarov is a wonderful place so it was worth it. :). I am not sure why birds liked my wind generator, but about 3 got too close for comfort... big mess. Cheers, Paul brentswain38 wrote: > > > So much for the motor cycle idea > I put my 5 ft diameter blade on a post at the stern so I really have > to reach to touch it. Not a problem. I packed it's 1 7/8th diameter > pipe in a 3 inch pipe with lots of foam around it so the noise is > minimal. Balance it by a string in the middle of the hub. > Only one seagull was dumb enought hover behind it for a while while it > was spining. He never got the nerve to check it closer , and I haven't > see a bird that dense since. > Brent > > | 20995|20939|2009-08-19 02:26:26|aaron riis|Re: pine mast?|hi, again wondering on your opinions of a solid pine mast I was just thinking the trees grow very straight, its heavier than spruce, but more resistant to rot what do you think?   Aaron ---                                 From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Solar Energy:Grid Parity To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 6:34 PM   My wind generator worked great if there were no waves at anchor and it worked great offshore when the boat was rolling and pitching at the same time. The problem was at anchor with pitching due to a short chop. I would never have a two blade wind generator again for this reason. If you look at a two blade generator frozen in time in a pitching boat at anchor, when the blades are horizontal they are twisting about their axis. The moment or force is minimal since it is like grabbing the blade and twirling it with your wrist. When the blade is vertical, it moves through a great arc with the boat going through a fast pitch. Its like grabbing the blade a wagging it through the air....much more force involved. Gyroscopic effects cause the reactive force to react 90 degrees to actual force so the wind generator vibrates even though everything is statically balanced.... the forces involved with the blades vertical are much more than with the blades horizontal. Even with a perfectly balanced blades, in those conditions, it will shake everything to bits. A 3 or 4 blade generator doesn't have this problem since the forces of blades being horizontal versus blades being vertical are not so great since with 3 or 4 blades spaced around the hub they cancel each other. The night I lost my wind generator, I was in Suvarov and it was blowing 25 to 30 knots from the south over a large lagoon and there were about 6 to 8 foot waves going through the anchorage. The waves were going right over the deck and the anchor line was trying to jump out of the bow roller. The gyroscopic effect shook the wind generator so bad it snapped the 5/8 inch shaft of the motor..... not a good night, but Suvarov is a wonderful place so it was worth it. :). I am not sure why birds liked my wind generator, but about 3 got too close for comfort... big mess. Cheers, Paul brentswain38 wrote: > > > So much for the motor cycle idea > I put my 5 ft diameter blade on a post at the stern so I really have > to reach to touch it. Not a problem. I packed it's 1 7/8th diameter > pipe in a 3 inch pipe with lots of foam around it so the noise is > minimal. Balance it by a string in the middle of the hub. > Only one seagull was dumb enought hover behind it for a while while it > was spining. He never got the nerve to check it closer , and I haven't > see a bird that dense since. > Brent > > __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 20996|20996|2009-08-19 02:44:04|briannarobertsers|Free Cosmetics, Games and More!|Hi There! Here is a mix of free items you can have: 1. Mascara (new) 2. Cetaphil Skin Cleansers & Moisturizers 3. An array of Garden & Indoor Games 4. Nascar T-Shirt (new) 5. Some other items You can view and collect all these items at the following link: http://groups.google.com/group/collectingfreebies/web/usa-freebies I hope you like the mix!| 20997|20895|2009-08-19 05:38:38|sae140|Re: Solar energy: Grid parity|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > On Cruisers Forum, questioning the supreme authority of big brother is forbidden. They support posts which advocate apathetic compliance with the demands of big brother, and juistify their abuses, but any posts which inform people of their legal rights in dealing with big brother get deleted. Who runs cruisers forum? Big Brother of course. Thats why I only check the site for occasional messages and try to avoid posting anything usefull there, which may give them some credibilty they don't deserve. Anyone with questions I can answer, can ask them on other forums. > With the right having had a strangle hold on information, you can expect that the freedom the internet provides come as a great cultural shock to them, and their mouthpieces. > While big brother may not support freedom of speech , it's up to us individuals to support it, any way we can. > Our freeddoms are a lot more intact than those of our southern neighbours. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > We Canadians live in a free country where freedom of speech is guaranteed in out constitution. > > > > Some guarantee. See: http://www.canadianfreespeech.com > > > I was really thinking about the irony of David Irving who, prior to his visit to Canada in 1992 had praised that country for having such a liberal approach to free speech, only to be arrested and deported for having a history of expressing his well-known controversial views. Freedom of speech on this forum should include not only the right for others to express controversial views, but should also include the right for someone to tell another to shut up or leave. (Keyword = 'tell', which is NOT the same as enforcing compliance) For, although it may sound like an oxymoron, that person has the right of free speech too ! Colin| 20998|20939|2009-08-19 14:27:24|Ray|Solar Energy:Grid Parity|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Permanent magnet alternators are ideal for wind generators. All old motorcycle engines eventually end up in scrapyards and I don't suppose it would be hard to cut the relevant alternator parts out with a hacksaw, and add a few approriate bearings in the relevant places. > Brent. You could indeed use the rotor and stators, BUT - most bike alternators put out a MAX of 30 amps, and that's at speeds of 2K rpm + SO - given those parameters, do they still make sense? (PS - I'm not judging, I'm asking!)| 20999|20939|2009-08-19 14:29:45|Ray|Solar Energy:Grid Parity|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > So much for the motor cycle idea >Balance it by a string in the middle of the hub. > Brent Brent - color me dumb, but, I'm having a hard time visualizing this. Care to explain a little futher?| 21000|20939|2009-08-19 14:34:01|Ray|Solar Energy:Grid Parity|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > So much for the motor cycle idea >Balance it by a string in the middle of the hub. > Brent Brent - color me dumb, but, I'm having a hard time visualizing this. Care to explain a little futher?|