22001|22000|2010-01-11 03:37:54|kingsknight4life|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Reading this group, I was surprised that many people pointed out, that every BS36 is slightly different. And that why it take longer to fit parts/furniture in it. > > This is what puzles me. If pattern of the hull (and other parts) was/were plasma pre-cut from CNC files, aligning marks were made during CNC cut, all pull points were placed in exact pre-determined locations, hull pulled to proper beam and measured at marks made during CNC cut, etc WHY every hull would be different? I cannot understand it from my not-so-great mechanical point of view. All hulls were built from paper plans, there are no CNC files that I know of. Also all the builders put on their own personal touches so no two are EXACTLY alike but the hulls are pretty darn close.> > This brings another subject. I do not plan to weld the hull by myself (it is not my field). If all recommended by Brent part were prebuilt, engine ordered, propeller shaft and propeller available, etc. IS IT POSSIBLE to build BS40 with help of 1 reputable boatbuilder/welder in 1 month to power-away stage (no rigging - engine only)? It might be and is probably possible. lol What I mean is it depends on lots of factors. Can you co-ordinate the arrival/purchase of all materials before hand. Do you have an indoor building site? What level of finish is required by you? I think you could but it's pushing the envelope. I think if Brent helped you could pull together a hull in less than a month.> > As I understand, if steel was wheel abrided and primed by steel supplier, most time consuming work is to clean/wirebrush welds/scraped_primer and put touch-up primer on welds/hull every day to protect it from corrosion. > > Another possible hold-up is sand-blasting (if needed), painting and insulation. Before insulation it is need to make all "mounting" rails/tabs for future furniture. No you don't need all the tabs, I think Brent recommends just putting in the tabs for the main bulkheads and mounting furniture off of them and the firring strips. > > I would like to know amount of man-hours to buld BS40. Let say working 8-10 hours a day, with regular speed doing quility work (without need to scrounge for extra metal and lead). Famous boat answer coming up, "It depends". Again there are too many variables for someone to answer for you.> > Another important consideration is the PRICE. I agree, it is possible to find cheap steel and stainless steel on scrap yards. But sometimes, it would be more expensive to move such metal to building site, than buy it from local supplier (if no good scrap yards available in the area). There are good bargains to be found in scrap yards etc but usually it is at the expense of time (but not always). > > Another question, how much suppliers charge for plasma cutting? Will be most suppliers able to cut plates for BS40 half-hull? > > Am I dreaming? Who here isn't? ; ) Join the club and start building. These boats are tough and go together quicker than most. what you spend in time and or money is up to the builder and there are "brent boats" out there in all time/price ranges. Hell some of us like Alex and myself are on our 2nd or 3rd Brent boat. lol > | 22002|22000|2010-01-11 05:40:04|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > All hulls were built from paper plans, there are no CNC files that I know of. Is it very difficult to make CNC files for the hull and deck? Or just nobody wanted to do so for BS40? > Can you co-ordinate the arrival/purchase of all materials before hand. More likely. If I know EXACTLY what i need. > Do you have an > indoor building site? Not yet. Why do I need indoor site? Could you tell me please. It might be possible to find ex-boat building site in Portland or in SF Bay Area next to water. > What level of finish is required by you? I think you could but it's > pushing the envelope. Fully welded hull (+ windows, door, hutches, tanks, ballast, etc - everything what need to be done before foaming). Engine ready to power the boat. Tabs and strips to put interior on, painted hull, foamed. No interior (at all OR, may be, some plywood instead of floor to walk on). No rigging, but some hardware to put/mount it later. Basically - the hull ready to touch water and power away (by engine). > > Am I dreaming? > > Who here isn't? ; ) :))| 22003|22000|2010-01-11 07:19:02|kingsknight4life|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|--As far as I know Brent has only made paper plans. I'm not sure how difficult computer generated plans would be to make (for Brent) or whomever wanted them. I'm not sure it is even necessary really. Brent can pull a hull together quickly. Your best bet would be to hire him to do it. The building site does NOt have to be indoors in fact I'd say 90%+ of these boats were built outdoors or under tarps. It will make things slightly easier and quicker as there are times when its too miserable or raining and working outdoors isn't an option. There is a materials list for all of these boats and the you can order all the raw steel ahead of time, it is quicker to get it pre-primed. Do you have lead and figured out how to melt it into your keel yet? You will "need" some stainless but some parts are "stainless optional" like bulwark caps and even hand railings. Have you ordered paint or contracted someone to paint it? There are some logistical issues that present themselves but again these boats can go together relatively quick but it depends on LOTS of variables. Maybe give Brent a call or email and see what he thinks? I think a 40 footer would take at least 50% longer to build than the 36. IS your boat for 2 only, if so 36 is lots of room? Rowland| 22004|22004|2010-01-11 07:49:29|Sikander.|Google Groups idea, and New Year's message from Alex|Hi All, after a busy time over the recent Christmas season, I've only just now had a chance to peruse postings, and need a few days to absorb the import of some of the proposals afoot for moving to Google groups. I can say that I have been working on formulating a permanent home for Origamiboats in the form of a website, though currently I can't afford it (not in the size and bandwidth that would be required to support large flows of data as a group). I currently have a website up which is a start (a free site): http://www.freewebs.com/origamiboats/ and it has worked ok for getting word out and processing some DVD sales. Yahoo has been a cost-effective and relatively easy interface for many years. However, I will look at what people have said, and will analyze what can be done. I will also read all the input from members about the idea of setting up a new group on Google. Obviously as the originator of the Origamiboats group here, it could be seen as appropriate to have a hand in the steering of a new group, though of course nothing prevents anyone from setting up spin-off groups as they like (the internet is a pretty free range). Anyhow, I'll just try and absorb what's been discussed here (have only just had a chance to scan messages quickly), and put my own two cents in soon, ok? I appreciate the dedication our members have shown for preserving and archiving any valuable data which may be gleaned from archived postings -- this is a job I most certainly couldn't take on myself alone. As well, it's heartening to see the good-will towards the philosophy behind the creation of these remarkable craft. It keeps up my faith in what I have done with the group, as well as my DVD, and encourages me to focus and re-invigorate my powers of intention on the goal of completing 1)another boat; 2)Vol 2 of the Origamiboats DVD - fitting out a hull; and 3)the 3rd film which was meant to act as a "prequel" to both films, an introduction and overview to the boats and the ideas, as well as information about floating examples and the lifestyle. A very fine 2010 to all of you, and I look forward to engaging in some re-visioning the group to best suit the evolving web-environments and technologies which are becoming available. I don't think there is any harm in trying out new things -- those which serve well will take flight, the rest will crash and burn according to natural laws of entropy or whatever :p Oh, and there is now an Origamiboats Facebook page, just to try it out. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=176943150951 I there is a sudden meet-up, people can have event notices right to their cellular phones, then hustle over the appropriate bay. Cheers, Alex| 22005|21995|2010-01-11 08:43:53|scott|Re: food for thought|Do you notice that in the list of yahoo services that yahoo groups isn't listed there. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > this was once one of the biggest sites on the internet full of do it yourself websites check it out > > http://geocities.yahoo.com/index.php > | 22006|22000|2010-01-11 09:00:03|Carl Anderson|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I would have to say that a 40 foot hull would take much longer than this unless you had 3 to 4 people working on it so construction will be 24/7. > This brings another subject. I do not plan to weld the hull by myself > (it is not my field). If all recommended by Brent part were prebuilt, > engine ordered, propeller shaft and propeller available, etc. IS IT > POSSIBLE to build BS40 with help of 1 reputable boatbuilder/welder in 1 > month to power-away stage (no rigging - engine only)? Again I say that the time needed is much longer than what 1 man has in a month. Evan has a quote of just less than 300 man-hours to produce a water-tight, unballasted, undetailed 36 foot hull. The complexity of working with the 40 footer would probably double that amount of hours just to get to the water-tight stage. Then you will need to ballast & detail the hull. Not to mention the painting (and here you WILL have to respect cure-time of whatever paint system you use). > I would like to know amount of man-hours to buld BS40. Let say working > 8-10 hours a day, with regular speed doing quility work (without need to > scrounge for extra metal and lead). When it comes to suppliers and timing all that would have to happen to really screw up your schedule would be having 1 instance of someone not getting their part done on a Friday but slipping "just until Monday" and you might have lost 2 days of good working time for that part of the project. Have that happen twice and you will never be able to do something like that in 1 month! You might have been able to get 40 foot long wheel abraded & primed steel plates plasma cut when the USA had a ship build industry, but now I would say that the answer is NO. I HAD to go to Canada to find a supplier that could do the "wheel abraded & primed" part. > Another question, how much suppliers charge for plasma cutting? Will be > most suppliers able to cut plates for BS40 half-hull? Like Rowland says "aren't we all here" > Am I dreaming? | 22007|22007|2010-01-11 11:33:42|Gord Schnell|Fwd: [origamiboats] Re: Main Sail|Begin forwarded message: > From: Gord Schnell > Date: December 12, 2009 7:28:43 AM PST (CA) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Main Sail > > Brent > How are things with you? Haven't seen you for quite some time. What > is your recommendation for mast height on the BS 40? > On 11-Dec-09, at 3:39 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > >> Yes it would work well. Most 36 footers today are going for 46 to >> 47 ft masts . 48 would be workable, altho reducing the luff of a >> sail is no big deal. >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: >> > >> > Would this sail work for a BS 36? >> > My plans are at the shop and I was hoping someone would know. >> > Thank you, >> > James >> > Foot: 14 ' >> > Luff: 43.6' >> > Leech: 45' >> > >> >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22008|22000|2010-01-11 12:38:02|markh|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Didn't Brent say that if someone hired him to do a bare hull it would take 3o days. I am not sure if this was completely welded or tacked. I may (probably) be wrong. If Brent takes 30 days then how long would a "new to the construction method" builder would take? I multiply all my estimates of time by 8 when working on boats unless it is something I have done before--of course I am the type that might weld his hand to his forehead accidently. Are you near a welding/tech school? He also recommended tacking it together and having an apprentice welder do all the welds thereafter. Hope I am not putting words in anyones mouth here. Markh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22009|22009|2010-01-11 13:44:52|Ben Okopnik|Archival project|Hi, all: The first two stages of the Origami downloading project have been completed; all the downloading is finished, and all the downloaded files have been converted to a plain-text format. They've also been compiled as a mail archive that is readable with any email program. The resulting file (52.3MB) is available here: http://okopnik.com/ori/origami_archive Just on general principles, I'd suggest that anyone having 50MB or so of spare space download this archive; the more people do this, the more of a reliable backup we'll have. The remaining two stages - setting this up as a searchable Web archive and setting up automated scripts that update it on a daily basis - should be finished sometime in the next couple of days, as I find the time to do the necessary programming. By comparison to the first two stages, these are relatively simple tasks. The practical upshot of this is that we now have choices that we didn't have previously. Whether we decide to stay with Yahoo, switch to another provider, or host it privately, we can do it without any trouble. In addition, it is now certain that this group's history will not be lost. Again, thanks to everyone who participated. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22010|22000|2010-01-11 13:51:05|theboilerflue|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I think Rowland is right with the waiting for parts thing slowing you down, some things just take time for example painting probably will take you at least three days, sandblasting and painting for me took all week all long days and during which you couldn't do much else on the boat cause you're waiting for paint to dry. Building these boats is a big process, it will take over your life, so be prepared. If you are concerned about building site rental I would start putting everything together like brent says handrails, winch, hatches ect it may even be possible to throw together all the deck pieces leave them long for trimming, with the flatbar welded on to the underside of them, this way once you have the hull pulled together you could throw the deck together in a day or two. If I were trying to pull one together in a month I would also blast and prime-paint the steel at some point before finishing the hull then just grind and paint the burnt weld areas. Unless the wheel abrading/shop priming leave the steel rough enough to just paint without a quick blast? I'm not sure about that, mine was rusty and so needed it but kate and carl you just painted didn't you? But wild (what is your name anyway) if you don't want to do any welding your self I'd be a damn good idea to make sure you don't have to do any welding on the boat after this expedited build cause any welder who has to come onto your boat while it is floating is going to cost you more than a land based one. I would recommend just bolting the firring strips to the angle iron stringers and the deck overlap as much as possible as every tab you weld on takes more time (you also have to weld the hull smooth on the outside on each) I used self tapping stainless screws to attach and only had to weld tabs on the ceiling mostly and in fact on the hull in places where I would of welded a tab I just put in more stringers - can't hurt. I would also watch out for "reputable boatbuilders/welders" as there is definitely a culture of perfectionist welders/boatbuilder who think they are putting together a nuclear power plant - the ones who WILL NOT USE 309l rod to weld stainless to stainless type (it's against the rules). I really recommend losing any goals of absolute perfection and embrace the world of "good enough" especially if you want to build in a month. How long did it take for Carson/Guildersleave's Bella Via to go together with a team of builders? Yes insulation follows painting and the mounting of the firring strips and bulkheads. I wish I had put in ALL my bulkheads before foaming I now understand what brent was saying about hanging you interior off these bulkheads. I'm not sure how much money could be saved with scrap yard salvage If you went on a mission to a bunch of good scrap yards and just picked up every piece of pipe, rod and good size chunk of plate you could find It'd definably be worth your time. What is the difference between scrap price and new? (I've never actually bought new stainless myself) but I always figured it was somewhere around 10x the price for new? If you're in the Bay Area? I bet there'd be lots of good scrap yards in the stockton/sacremento area - with all that old industry there, there must be scrap left over from? I would say that will power and determination are most important things to the building of a boat it's a hard long process and although I sure it becomes easier the more money you throw at it, it's not going to be easy and quick. It will cost more than you think and take twice as long, or ten times| 22011|22004|2010-01-11 14:14:11|Ben Okopnik|Re: Google Groups idea, and New Year's message from Alex|Hey, Alex - nice to see you back! (By the way, I like the classic name referent there; "Sikander" has has quite a bit of power behind it, and lots of Sikhs give that name to their kids. Those folks have a keen sense of military history...) On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:44:36PM -0000, Sikander. wrote: > Oh, and there is now an Origamiboats Facebook page, just to try it > out. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=176943150951 I there is a > sudden meet-up, people can have event notices right to their cellular > phones, then hustle over the appropriate bay. Excellent idea, even better than using my email address! Look out for a wave of "friends" coming your way. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com | 22012|22009|2010-01-11 15:22:31|Doug Jackson|Re: Archival project|Well done. Thanks for getting that done Ben. I'll added a 11mg, self extracting (zip) compressed mirror for the file. http://www.submarineboat.com/files/Yahoo_Origamboat_Archive_Feb2000-Jan2010.exe Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ________________________________ From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 12:43:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Archival project Hi, all: The first two stages of the Origami downloading project have been completed; all the downloading is finished, and all the downloaded files have been converted to a plain-text format. They've also been compiled as a mail archive that is readable with any email program. The resulting file (52.3MB) is available here: http://okopnik. com/ori/origami_ archive Just on general principles, I'd suggest that anyone having 50MB or so of spare space download this archive; the more people do this, the more of a reliable backup we'll have. The remaining two stages - setting this up as a searchable Web archive and setting up automated scripts that update it on a daily basis - should be finished sometime in the next couple of days, as I find the time to do the necessary programming. By comparison to the first two stages, these are relatively simple tasks. The practical upshot of this is that we now have choices that we didn't have previously. Whether we decide to stay with Yahoo, switch to another provider, or host it privately, we can do it without any trouble. In addition, it is now certain that this group's history will not be lost. Again, thanks to everyone who participated. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com| 22013|22000|2010-01-11 15:49:05|theboilerflue|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|> > More likely. If I know EXACTLY what i need. > There is a materials list in the files section indoor building site? > Not yet. Why do I need indoor site? Could you tell me please. It might be possible to find ex-boat building site in Portland or in SF Bay Area next to water. If you build in the summer in the sun it'll be very hot but do able and if it rains on the hull that will accelerate rusting > Fully welded hull (+ windows, door, hutches, tanks, ballast, etc - everything what need to be done before foaming). Engine ready to power the boat. Tabs and strips to put interior on, painted hull, foamed. No interior (at all OR, may be, some plywood instead of floor to walk on). No rigging, but some hardware to put/mount it later. Basically - the hull ready to touch water and power away (by engine). > If you put in a tank between the keels it serves as a pretty good floor I'm in no hurry to put one in yet after six months of living in it in the pilot house you do but it's easy if you weld in some angle iron frames for it to sit on, makes the build a lot easier too. > > > Am I dreaming? > > > > Who here isn't? ; ) | 22014|22000|2010-01-11 17:41:15|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I launched and motored away in my 31 footer a month after the steel arrived, but that was a bare shell. If the steel was all pre cut and one had built all the detailing before hand, it would be possible to motor away in a month. Foaming and interior would probably be easier to do after launching. Wheelabraded an pre primed steel with the right primer eliminates the need for sandblasting. I estimate about 100 hours to pull together a 36 ft hull, deck, cockpit, wheelhouse, cabin, keel rudder and skeg. Welding is another 100 hours at $30 an hour plus expenses. Detail is more, less if you build a lot of it in advance..I don't know how much it is for a 40 footer , but it is a much bigger boat. I limit myself to 36 feet, easier on the back. First you do as cruise of scrapyards and see what you can get cheap before buying anything new. That's sport , not work, so time is irrelevant. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Reading this group, I was surprised that many people pointed out, that every BS36 is slightly different. And that why it take longer to fit parts/furniture in it. > > This is what puzles me. If pattern of the hull (and other parts) was/were plasma pre-cut from CNC files, aligning marks were made during CNC cut, all pull points were placed in exact pre-determined locations, hull pulled to proper beam and measured at marks made during CNC cut, etc WHY every hull would be different? I cannot understand it from my not-so-great mechanical point of view. > > This brings another subject. I do not plan to weld the hull by myself (it is not my field). If all recommended by Brent part were prebuilt, engine ordered, propeller shaft and propeller available, etc. IS IT POSSIBLE to build BS40 with help of 1 reputable boatbuilder/welder in 1 month to power-away stage (no rigging - engine only)? > > As I understand, if steel was wheel abrided and primed by steel supplier, most time consuming work is to clean/wirebrush welds/scraped_primer and put touch-up primer on welds/hull every day to protect it from corrosion. > > Another possible hold-up is sand-blasting (if needed), painting and insulation. Before insulation it is need to make all "mounting" rails/tabs for future furniture. > > I would like to know amount of man-hours to buld BS40. Let say working 8-10 hours a day, with regular speed doing quility work (without need to scrounge for extra metal and lead). > > Another important consideration is the PRICE. I agree, it is possible to find cheap steel and stainless steel on scrap yards. But sometimes, it would be more expensive to move such metal to building site, than buy it from local supplier (if no good scrap yards available in the area). > > Another question, how much suppliers charge for plasma cutting? Will be most suppliers able to cut plates for BS40 half-hull? > > Am I dreaming? > | 22015|22007|2010-01-11 17:41:33|brentswain38|Fwd: [origamiboats] Re: Main Sail|I've drawn the mast for the 40 at at 52 feet, but for the windless BC coast, it could be higher. Still cruising 11 months a year on the BC coast. Will I see you out here soon? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Gord Schnell > > Date: December 12, 2009 7:28:43 AM PST (CA) > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Main Sail > > > > Brent > > How are things with you? Haven't seen you for quite some time. What > > is your recommendation for mast height on the BS 40? > > On 11-Dec-09, at 3:39 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > >> Yes it would work well. Most 36 footers today are going for 46 to > >> 47 ft masts . 48 would be workable, altho reducing the luff of a > >> sail is no big deal. > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > >> > > >> > Would this sail work for a BS 36? > >> > My plans are at the shop and I was hoping someone would know. > >> > Thank you, > >> > James > >> > Foot: 14 ' > >> > Luff: 43.6' > >> > Leech: 45' > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22016|22000|2010-01-11 17:47:35|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|We found some great scrapyards in Oakland. They even had ss rods in the metal can for $1 a pound and cheap military surplus epoxies from Seattle area. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > I think Rowland is right with the waiting for parts thing slowing you down, some things just take time for example painting probably will take you at least three days, sandblasting and painting for me took all week all long days and during which you couldn't do much else on the boat cause you're waiting for paint to dry. Building these boats is a big process, it will take over your life, so be prepared. If you are concerned about building site rental I would start putting everything together like brent says handrails, winch, hatches ect it may even be possible to throw together all the deck pieces leave them long for trimming, with the flatbar welded on to the underside of them, this way once you have the hull pulled together you could throw the deck together in a day or two. If I were trying to pull one together in a month I would also blast and prime-paint the steel at some point before finishing the hull then just grind and paint the burnt weld areas. > > Unless the wheel abrading/shop priming leave the steel rough enough to just paint without a quick blast? I'm not sure about that, mine was rusty and so needed it but kate and carl you just painted didn't you? > > But wild (what is your name anyway) if you don't want to do any welding your self I'd be a damn good idea to make sure you don't have to do any welding on the boat after this expedited build cause any welder who has to come onto your boat while it is floating is going to cost you more than a land based one. > > I would recommend just bolting the firring strips to the angle iron stringers and the deck overlap as much as possible as every tab you weld on takes more time (you also have to weld the hull smooth on the outside on each) I used self tapping stainless screws to attach and only had to weld tabs on the ceiling mostly and in fact on the hull in places where I would of welded a tab I just put in more stringers - can't hurt. > > I would also watch out for "reputable boatbuilders/welders" as there is definitely a culture of perfectionist welders/boatbuilder who think they are putting together a nuclear power plant - the ones who WILL NOT USE 309l rod to weld stainless to stainless type (it's against the rules). I really recommend losing any goals of absolute perfection and embrace the world of "good enough" especially if you want to build in a month. > > How long did it take for Carson/Guildersleave's Bella Via to go together with a team of builders? > > Yes insulation follows painting and the mounting of the firring strips and bulkheads. I wish I had put in ALL my bulkheads before foaming I now understand what brent was saying about hanging you interior off these bulkheads. > > I'm not sure how much money could be saved with scrap yard salvage If you went on a mission to a bunch of good scrap yards and just picked up every piece of pipe, rod and good size chunk of plate you could find It'd definably be worth your time. What is the difference between scrap price and new? (I've never actually bought new stainless myself) but I always figured it was somewhere around 10x the price for new? If you're in the Bay Area? I bet there'd be lots of good scrap yards in the stockton/sacremento area - with all that old industry there, there must be scrap left over from? > > I would say that will power and determination are most important things to the building of a boat it's a hard long process and although I sure it becomes easier the more money you throw at it, it's not going to be easy and quick. It will cost more than you think and take twice as long, or ten times > | 22017|22009|2010-01-11 17:50:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: Archival project|On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:22:07PM -0800, Doug Jackson wrote: > Well done. Thanks for getting that done Ben. You're welcome, Doug. Again, it would have taken much, much longer without the rest of the team. > I'll added a 11mg, self extracting (zip) compressed mirror for the file. > > http://www.submarineboat.com/files/Yahoo_Origamboat_Archive_Feb2000-Jan2010.exe Cool. :) Although people with Linux, Mac OS, or any other OSes might have to do a little fiddling to decompress that. Do note, though, that the archive will be updated on a regular basis (this is why I left it uncompressed), so this file is going to grow. I'll also make the updates available as increments so you don't have to re-download the entire archive every time. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22018|22009|2010-01-11 17:53:25|Doug Jackson|Re: Archival project|They still make Mac's? ;) Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ________________________________ From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 4:49:14 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Archival project On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:22:07PM -0800, Doug Jackson wrote: > Well done. Thanks for getting that done Ben. You're welcome, Doug. Again, it would have taken much, much longer without the rest of the team. > I'll added a 11mg, self extracting (zip) compressed mirror for the file. > > http://www.submarineboat.com/files/Yahoo_Origamboat_Archive_Feb2000-Jan2010.exe Cool. :) Although people with Linux, Mac OS, or any other OSes might have to do a little fiddling to decompress that. Do note, though, that the archive will be updated on a regular basis (this is why I left it uncompressed) , so this file is going to grow. I'll also make the updates available as increments so you don't have to re-download the entire archive every time. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com | 22019|22007|2010-01-11 17:55:23|Gord Schnell|Re: Main Sail|Thanks Brent....sure hope you'll see me out there soon. Gord On 11-Jan-10, at 2:40 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > I've drawn the mast for the 40 at at 52 feet, but for the windless > BC coast, it could be higher. > Still cruising 11 months a year on the BC coast. > Will I see you out here soon? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell > wrote: > > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > From: Gord Schnell > > > Date: December 12, 2009 7:28:43 AM PST (CA) > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Main Sail > > > > > > Brent > > > How are things with you? Haven't seen you for quite some time. > What > > > is your recommendation for mast height on the BS 40? > > > On 11-Dec-09, at 3:39 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > >> Yes it would work well. Most 36 footers today are going for 46 to > > >> 47 ft masts . 48 would be workable, altho reducing the luff of a > > >> sail is no big deal. > > >> > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Would this sail work for a BS 36? > > >> > My plans are at the shop and I was hoping someone would know. > > >> > Thank you, > > >> > James > > >> > Foot: 14 ' > > >> > Luff: 43.6' > > >> > Leech: 45' > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22020|22009|2010-01-11 17:58:24|Ben Okopnik|Re: Archival project|On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 02:53:19PM -0800, Doug Jackson wrote: > They still make Mac's? ;) $2.99 on special, with a side of fries and a small drink. Although I've always wondered how people run programs on those things. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22021|22009|2010-01-11 18:31:08|wild_explorer|Re: Archival project|Thanks Ben! It is already easier to search and, best of all, I can do it OFF-LINE. Nice... ;) > have been converted to a plain-text format. They've also been compiled > as a mail archive that is readable with any email program. > > The resulting file (52.3MB) is available here: > > http://okopnik.com/ori/origami_archive > | 22022|22009|2010-01-11 18:39:52|Ben Okopnik|Re: Archival project|On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:31:02PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Thanks Ben! It is already easier to search and, best of all, I can do it OFF-LINE. Nice... ;) _Exactly_ the point of the whole exercise. We now have lots and lots of options... -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22023|22000|2010-01-11 18:54:31|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Yep, there are lot of big scrapyards in Oakland. I might cross out SF Bay Area, as possible building site, just because of sale taxes. It is possible to find reasonably priced building site at ex-military base in Alameda. The bad part - it add 10% to a price of everything sold here. Another problem - registation more expenseve. Portland area still looks pretty good. No sale taxes, close to steel suppliers (Eugene and Seattle). Pretty good weather during summer. Should be a lot of scrapyards around Portland too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > We found some great scrapyards in Oakland. They even had ss rods in the metal can for $1 a pound and cheap military surplus epoxies from Seattle area. > | 22024|22000|2010-01-11 20:32:47|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|It has been a while since I used my Rhino 3D program, I use Solid Edge day to day, but using AutoCAD I could easily produce a set of Cad files in a day or two at most from the paper drawings. I bought a copy of Brent's plans for the 31. The reason I haven't done is simply that I had no immediate use for it, and I haven't found a way to fold up the flat parts in a 3D program yet. 3D programs are good at flattening not folding up. I have folded a 3D model by sweeping a developable surface that approximates the 31. The problem is that the real thing has compound curves at the bow and stern that are created when you pull the metal together. No Cad program I know of can do an accurate job of simulating that. I believe I have a way to produce an accurate model starting from a developable surface. The problem is that it is exceedingly tedious work to do. The concept is that the developable model has a visible crease at the bow and stern. That crease shows up in a paper model too, but not in the steel. One reason is that the angle stringers get welded on first, and they cross the are of the crease so it can't form easily. The other reason is that with the thickness of metal being pulled into shape you cannot possibly stretch any dimension across the plate in the pulling process. It would take hundreds of tons of force, not thousands of pounds. So if you make the simple assumption that the sheet size CAN'T change then you can slice the creased model at a number of stations from the bow back to where the crease meets the cuts that make the chine. The length of the line at the intersection of the creased plate with the station is the length of the curved piece of steel at that location. So if you draw a smooth curve on the station with a length exactly matching the creased line length, then the curve must be very close to the steel in the real world. Those curves are then easily lofted to produce a model very close to the real thing. Since the creased surface was created by a developable process it can be flattened automatically by the 3D program to produce a file for cutting. I estimate that a 31 foot boat modeled, cut and pulled together from these files would have an accuracy of within 1/2" everywhere. That means you could model an interior where every piece could be designed to fit no closer than an inch to the hull. These parts could be designed for CNC router cutting So in a few hours you could have a completely cut hull and deck, AND a completely cut interior that would fit perfectly. Most of us will never build our own boat. I think a kit like this could increase your chances of finishing one by a whole lot. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "wild_explorer" To: Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 4:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > All hulls were built from paper plans, there are no CNC files that I > know of. Is it very difficult to make CNC files for the hull and deck? Or just nobody wanted to do so for BS40? > Can you co-ordinate the arrival/purchase of all materials before hand. More likely. If I know EXACTLY what i need. > Do you have an > indoor building site? Not yet. Why do I need indoor site? Could you tell me please. It might be possible to find ex-boat building site in Portland or in SF Bay Area next to water. > What level of finish is required by you? I think you could but it's > pushing the envelope. Fully welded hull (+ windows, door, hutches, tanks, ballast, etc - everything what need to be done before foaming). Engine ready to power the boat. Tabs and strips to put interior on, painted hull, foamed. No interior (at all OR, may be, some plywood instead of floor to walk on). No rigging, but some hardware to put/mount it later. Basically - the hull ready to touch water and power away (by engine). > > Am I dreaming? > > Who here isn't? ; ) :)) | 22025|22000|2010-01-11 21:27:03|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dreamor reality?|Yes. Your dreamin'....but we here are all dreamers. Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: wild_explorer Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 09:31:54 To: Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > All hulls were built from paper plans, there are no CNC files that I know of. Is it very difficult to make CNC files for the hull and deck? Or just nobody wanted to do so for BS40? > Can you co-ordinate the arrival/purchase of all materials before hand. More likely. If I know EXACTLY what i need. > Do you have an > indoor building site? Not yet. Why do I need indoor site? Could you tell me please. It might be possible to find ex-boat building site in Portland or in SF Bay Area next to water. > What level of finish is required by you? I think you could but it's > pushing the envelope. Fully welded hull (+ windows, door, hutches, tanks, ballast, etc - everything what need to be done before foaming). Engine ready to power the boat. Tabs and strips to put interior on, painted hull, foamed. No interior (at all OR, may be, some plywood instead of floor to walk on). No rigging, but some hardware to put/mount it later. Basically - the hull ready to touch water and power away (by engine). > > Am I dreaming? > > Who here isn't? ; ) :)) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22026|22000|2010-01-11 22:11:26|ric|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dreamor reality?|(Please correct me if I am wrong) But I read somewhere that Brent and the owner had the steel for a 36' delivered 2pm on a Thursday and by 11pm Friday had the hull decks and cabin all cut out and stitched. Brent has just reinforced that his 31 was away in 1 month So why is Wild dreaming? It is perfectly achievable. Just a matter of logistics; And from the way Wild is approaching the job I feel he has every chance of pulling it off. Ever seen those group efforts where a congregation starts Friday night and has a service in a new church on Sunday evening. Just logistics and the will to achieve it. Go for it wild. Document your hull project so it can be computer cut. When I looked into it the cutting rate was 2.4 m/minute. Not a lot of minutes in cutting out a whole boat once the preparation is done. Loading and clearing the sheets will take longer than the cutting. And yes go for a covered site where ever you are. Makes working 24/7 a pleasure as well as controlling security and somewhere to store all the pre-builts. But above all, have fun. ps. can someone please explain to an Aussie what wheel abrading is? When ever I have a project I just get all the metal blasted to class 2 and sprayed with an inorganic weld through zinc. All I do once the welding is done is water blast the job to get rid of the welding smoke, apply some really thinned cold galv to the welds and any ground spots,then apply the paint. (I do work in a covered site). ric hutchings --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell@... wrote: > > Yes. Your dreamin'....but we here are all dreamers. Gord > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22027|22000|2010-01-12 00:05:13|theboilerflue|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Times 8 that's what I was going to say but figured it was some arbitrary number - guess not| 22028|22000|2010-01-12 01:28:34|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Brent, wrote: > > I launched and motored away in my 31 footer a month after the steel arrived, but that was a bare shell. If the steel was all pre cut and one had built all the detailing before hand, it would be >possible to motor away in a month. What is your estimate for laying out lines + cutting hull plates + cutting plates for parts for BS40? About 100 hours? > Foaming and interior woul >probably be easier to do after launching. Is it because after launching it is easier to find foamer in local marinas if they have boat lift? Or other reasons? > I estimate about 100 hours to pull together a 36 ft hull, deck, cockpit, wheelhouse, cabin, keel rudder and skeg. Welding is another 100 hours at $30 an hour plus expenses. Detail is more, less if you build a lot of it in advance..I don't know how much it is for a 40 footer , but it is a much bigger boat. I limit myself to 36 feet, easier on the back. Is this estimate for BS36 without putting pre-built detailing and engine? Does it include grinding the welds/hill and primer touch-up? Is it possible ruffly estimate BS40? > First you do as cruise of scrapyards and see what you can get cheap before buying anything new. That's sport , not work, so time is >irrelevant. I like dumpster-diving myself (related to my field). It is amazing what you can find there. I have no experience in metal findings (yet). If I can find good scrapyard in the area, I will go for it. More likely to find stainless steel.| 22029|22000|2010-01-12 01:42:56|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > to day, but using AutoCAD I could easily produce a set of Cad files in a day > or two at most from the paper drawings. Hm-m-m. Sounds like reasonable time frame. Is it built in function in AutoCAD to generate files for CNC cutter? > for it, and I haven't found a way to fold up the flat parts in a 3D program > yet. 3D programs are good at flattening not folding up. I would like to discuss it more. Check your e-mail. > files would have an accuracy of within 1/2" everywhere. That means you > could model an interior where every piece could be designed to fit no closer > than an inch to the hull. These parts could be designed for CNC router > cutting So in a few hours you could have a completely cut hull and deck, > AND a completely cut interior that would fit perfectly. That would be perfect solution. I do not plan interior at this time, but it would be nice to have such option.| 22030|22000|2010-01-12 02:46:45|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Thank you to ALL for your brains storm. ;) Looks like it is not such crazy idea. I do not plan to start building a boat "next" month. I still have time for preparation. I will not start this project, If I cannot fit the schedule (theoretically) in 2 weeks and sufficient funds to finish it. That way, more likely, I could make it in reality in 1 month (my vacation allowance). So, - Building site: Level surface close to water with industrial electrical power. Better to have shed and overhead crane. If not, check weather records for last 10 years and pick better season for boat building. Preferably steel suppliers should be reasonably close to cut shipping cost. Local welding suppliers (if something needed). - Steel: Wheel abraded and zinc primed (need to verify if available). Cost more, but eliminates sand-blasting. Full length plates. Part CNC pre-cut. I will check if close-by suppliers have CNC tables able to cut 8x40 sheets. - Pre-built parts: I might be able to outsource this to local community college which has welding program. Students need practice anyway and some local scrapyard should have enough materials for that. - Welder: Under reputable welder I meant, welder who knows how to weld thin metal without distortion. I would not trust such work to inexperienced welder, who will overweld and contribute to bigger distortion of the hull. If more than 2 welders necessary, it is need to have lead-welder/supervisor who will watch and guide them. - Welding equipment: No idea at this time - could be rented. - Ballasting: Check local scrap metal companies for lead price. Covered keel area (same way as asbestos removal) with air intake and vacuum exhaust to outside of the hull. Putting small chunks of lead into the keel. Melt lead layer by layer using propane torch inside the keels. Probably will do it by myself with proper safety equipment. - Painting: ~ 3 days?? - 24 man/hr??. Painting could be done at the same time inside and outside the hull. Deck. cabin, wheelhouse could be painted at the same time or later. No idea what paint to use (should be in Brent's book) - Foaming: Could be postponed (according Brent's recommendation), but need to call and get quote (need to know price). - Engine: Need to chose proper engine/transmission - need help for that. Installation and alignment: my estimate ~1-2 days (~16hr)? I can do it by myself. - Hull pull and hull welding (from pre-cut parts): ~200-300 man/hr What else???| 22031|22000|2010-01-12 03:57:11|ric|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Easy there Wild. You will never paint a vessel of that size in 24 man hrs. You may do it in three days but it will take a considerable gang of men. How many I can't tell you, as I don't know the parameters of the job. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > >> > - Painting: > > ~ 3 days?? - 24 man/hr??. Painting could be done at the same time inside and outside the hull. Deck. cabin, wheelhouse could be painted at the same time or later. No idea what paint to use (should be in Brent's book) > > What else??? > | 22032|22000|2010-01-12 13:12:26|theboilerflue|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|> Wheel abraded and zinc primed (need to verify if available). Cost more, but eliminates sand-blasting. Full length plates. Part CNC pre-cut. I will check if close-by suppliers have CNC tables able to cut 8x40 sheets. I wouldn't be surprised if you have trouble finding someone to do that, I've heard people have trouble just getting the sheets that size delivered much less cut. Most pre-cut boat kits are built with smaller sheets -traditional method > > > No idea at this time - could be rented. just buy a used DC buzzbox you can find them on craigslist/ebay for 100-300 bucks and you can always sell it again. > > - Ballasting: > > Check local scrap metal companies for lead price. > I don't know what the price for lead would be now but the best I could find two years ago 65 cents a pound CAD > Covered keel area (same way as asbestos removal) with air intake and vacuum exhaust to outside of the hull. Putting small chunks of lead into the keel. Melt lead layer by layer using propane torch inside the keels. Probably will do it by myself with proper safety equipment. I found that the lead would fill all the gaps around the ingots in my keels pretty well by melting it down with a tiger torch so no real need to do it layer by layer just put all the lead in and melt it down at a high heat > > - Painting: > > ~ 3 days?? - 24 man/hr??. Painting could be done at the same time inside and outside the hull. Deck. cabin, wheelhouse could be painted at the same time or later. No idea what paint to use (should be in Brent's book) It takes a while to sandblast so if you end up sandblasting which you probably won't you'll probably want to blast inside then paint cover the windows then blast outside and paint. but with out sand blasting you could probably paint inside and out no problem but theres a lot of layers and cure times between the layers so depending on what kind of paint you use and tempurature, direct sun it'll take at least 3 days probably more like 5 or 6| 22033|22000|2010-01-12 14:17:22|rooster|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|You could build with aluminum;faster cutting, faster welding and no sand blasting and/or expensive paint job. Just a thought| 22034|22000|2010-01-12 14:20:42|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Ya-a-a... My bad. This painting time is foolishly optimistic (unrealistic). That why I want to put plans in 3D. At least we will know parameters for the certain job and could estimate the cost. I did some fast modeling in 3D for the boat - my version based on boat parameters (beam, length). That gave me following: Hull, transom, keels, rudder, skeg painting area (one side). Does not include deck, cabin, wheelhouse (which could be painted later) BS36 - 650-700 sq.ft BS40 - 950-1000 sq.ft Now I can call to painting services and get estimates. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > Easy there Wild. You will never paint a vessel of that size in 24 man hrs. You may do it in three days but it will take a considerable gang of men. How many I can't tell you, as I don't know the parameters of the job. > | 22035|22000|2010-01-12 14:23:28|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|May be it is true, but I do not like aluminum - just MY personal preferences. So, it is not the option for ME. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rooster" wrote: > > > You could build with aluminum;faster cutting, faster welding and no sand blasting and/or expensive paint job. > > Just a thought > | 22036|22000|2010-01-12 14:37:52|Aaron Williams|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Wild As the owner of a small Plasma cutting table I have given this subject a lot of thought while build my own BS36. My first table was to small for the 5' wide sheets that work best most of the material usage less waste. I  now have a 5' x 10'. I can cut evreything for a BS36 or smaller except the hull and the 6' wide sheet for the cabin top.  Deck plates cabin and pilothouse pre cut with window openings with 1/2" to 1" tabs left on Maybe even the forward cabin roof with pre cut vents and hatch. for sure get the mast arch. and keel bottom (twin or single). I have even thought about cutting the deck beams but I think it would waste to much.  Cutting the SS parts is easy enough. Getting all of the ideas drawn out is not so easy. The real problem for me has been not having anyother boats close by to compare to.   Questions that I still need to ask:  Why does work keep getting in the way of living Aaron   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22037|22000|2010-01-12 15:06:30|mickeyolaf|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I just painted my aluminum BS 36. It took me a week of prep cleaning to bright. Then wiped by hand with solvent cleaner until the rags came up clean. Then wiped with water. My knees will never be the same. We then sprayed 2 coats of high build 2 part, then 2 coats of 2 part color then 2 coats of 2 part clear clear. The masking took 2 of us a complete day. The primer took a day for 2 coats. The same for the color and clear. We sprayed wet on wet. We did the house and cabin and decks first with 8 coats in the high traffic areas and 6 in the low. My cockpit floor is probably an 1/8" thick. I was exhausted after this job was done. I had a quote to paint the boat of $35,000. We did it for a fifth of that with high tech paint and lots of sweat. I haven't read all of the messages here re this subject which I will do now. You can build a boat quickly if u are not working, have all materials on hand, no wife, no kids, unlimited funds, don't look for deals, live where the weather is perfect, ............. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Ya-a-a... My bad. This painting time is foolishly optimistic (unrealistic). > > That why I want to put plans in 3D. At least we will know parameters for the certain job and could estimate the cost. > > I did some fast modeling in 3D for the boat - my version based on boat parameters (beam, length). That gave me following: > > Hull, transom, keels, rudder, skeg painting area (one side). Does not include deck, cabin, wheelhouse (which could be painted later) > > BS36 - 650-700 sq.ft > > BS40 - 950-1000 sq.ft > > Now I can call to painting services and get estimates. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > Easy there Wild. You will never paint a vessel of that size in 24 man hrs. You may do it in three days but it will take a considerable gang of men. How many I can't tell you, as I don't know the parameters of the job. > > > | 22038|22000|2010-01-12 16:18:58|Carl Anderson|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Before I started to build MOM I looked for what a boat builder would charge for a finished hull. Only quote I got was $90,000 for a hull that would be "ready to ballast". When I asked why so much the reply was "last one I did for $50,000 and didn't make any money on it". Seems that when you have a "professional" operation the expenses can get quite out of hand very fast! Lots of sweat saved us quite a bit but not the 80% that you are talking. Carl sv-mom.com mickeyolaf wrote: > > > I had a quote to paint the boat of $35,000. > > We did it for a fifth of that with high tech paint and lots of sweat. > | 22039|22000|2010-01-12 16:23:07|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|In the tropics bare aluminium gets hot enough to get serious burns off. So you have to paint it if you don't want to walkin a frying pan. Below the water you have to paint it ti keep antifouling on. An aluminium buider told me the only real success he had painting aluminium was to sandblast it lightly. A penny dropped in the bilge or any copper will corrode it right thru so the bilges should be painted. Sprayfoam on aluminium can be easily wiped of with the bare had so it should be at least primed inside. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rooster" wrote: > > > You could build with aluminum;faster cutting, faster welding and no sand blasting and/or expensive paint job. > > Just a thought > | 22040|22000|2010-01-12 16:24:57|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dreamor reality?|The 36 in two days was just the hull tacked together. None of it was pre cut so that included cutting, and welding the bulwark caps and stringers on. A wheelabrader is a shot blaster which uses centrifugal force from a huge wheel to throw steel shot at the plate. It goes in the wheelabrader rusty, and comes out the other end looking like a sheet of cement. Many steel suppliers have them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > (Please correct me if I am wrong) But I read somewhere that Brent and > the owner had the steel for a 36' delivered 2pm on a Thursday and by > 11pm Friday had the hull decks and cabin all cut out and stitched. > Brent has just reinforced that his 31 was away in 1 month So why is > Wild dreaming? It is perfectly achievable. Just a matter of logistics; > And from the way Wild is approaching the job I feel he has every chance > of pulling it off. Ever seen those group efforts where a congregation > starts Friday night and has a service in a new church on Sunday evening. > Just logistics and the will to achieve it. Go for it wild. Document > your hull project so it can be computer cut. When I looked into it the > cutting rate was 2.4 m/minute. Not a lot of minutes in cutting out a > whole boat once the preparation is done. Loading and clearing the sheets > will take longer than the cutting. And yes go for a covered site where > ever you are. Makes working 24/7 a pleasure as well as controlling > security and somewhere to store all the pre-builts. But above all, have > fun. ps. can someone please explain to an Aussie what wheel abrading > is? When ever I have a project I just get all the metal blasted to class > 2 and sprayed with an inorganic weld through zinc. All I do once the > welding is done is water blast the job to get rid of the welding smoke, > apply some really thinned cold galv to the welds and any ground > spots,then apply the paint. (I do work in a covered site). ric > hutchings > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell@ wrote: > > > > Yes. Your dreamin'....but we here are all dreamers. Gord > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22041|22000|2010-01-12 16:28:08|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I have no estimates on cutting, but layout with my patterns is a couple of hours. Cutting and pulling together the entire shell is under 100 hours I painted my boat after launching, except for the bottom. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, > > wrote: > > > > I launched and motored away in my 31 footer a month after the steel arrived, but that was a bare shell. If the steel was all pre cut and one had built all the detailing before hand, it would be >possible to motor away in a month. > > What is your estimate for laying out lines + cutting hull plates + cutting plates for parts for BS40? About 100 hours? > > > Foaming and interior woul > >probably be easier to do after launching. > > Is it because after launching it is easier to find foamer in local marinas if they have boat lift? Or other reasons? > > > I estimate about 100 hours to pull together a 36 ft hull, deck, cockpit, wheelhouse, cabin, keel rudder and skeg. Welding is another 100 hours at $30 an hour plus expenses. Detail is more, less if you build a lot of it in advance..I don't know how much it is for a 40 footer , but it is a much bigger boat. I limit myself to 36 feet, easier on the back. > > Is this estimate for BS36 without putting pre-built detailing and engine? Does it include grinding the welds/hill and primer touch-up? Is it possible ruffly estimate BS40? > > > First you do as cruise of scrapyards and see what you can get cheap before buying anything new. That's sport , not work, so time is >irrelevant. > > I like dumpster-diving myself (related to my field). It is amazing what you can find there. I have no experience in metal findings (yet). If I can find good scrapyard in the area, I will go for it. More likely to find stainless steel. > | 22042|22000|2010-01-12 16:31:55|Doug Jackson|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|We have a 5' x 10' router table that we will adapt for plasma. We'll likely route out plywood templates for lots of the openings. We've fallen deeply in love with the CNC table and the plasma torch. For those of you that will be drawing up designs for CNC, please consider sharing your work via DXF files or the like. We're not building a Swain but I and I'm sure others would like to see parts like anchors, anchor winches, dorades, etc. What other parts might lend themselves to CNC? Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ________________________________ From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 12, 2010 1:35:59 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? Wild As the owner of a small Plasma cutting table I have given this subject a lot of thought while build my own BS36. My first table was to small for the 5' wide sheets that work best most of the material usage less waste. I now have a 5' x 10'. I can cut evreything for a BS36 or smaller except the hull and the 6' wide sheet for the cabin top. Deck plates cabin and pilothouse pre cut with window openings with 1/2" to 1" tabs left on Maybe even the forward cabin roof with pre cut vents and hatch. for sure get the mast arch. and keel bottom (twin or single). I have even thought about cutting the deck beams but I think it would waste to much. Cutting the SS parts is easy enough. Getting all of the ideas drawn out is not so easy. The real problem for me has been not having anyother boats close by to compare to. Questions that I still need to ask: Why does work keep getting in the way of living Aaron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22043|22000|2010-01-12 18:36:19|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Just got off the phone with steel supplier. Pre-primed sheet 3/16 8x40 plasma PRE-CUT, DELIVERED to Portland - $2000. "These plates are normally ABS Grade A and are primed with International's primer Interplate NQA-937 ¾-1mil dft 933-gray." The supplier can plasma cut 2(two) 8x40 sheets at the same time on CNC table 17x85ft. They just need CNC files. So, I see VERY BIG reason to convert plans to CNC files. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Wheel abraded and zinc primed (need to verify if available). Cost more, but eliminates sand-blasting. Full length plates. Part CNC pre-cut. I will check if close-by suppliers have CNC tables able to cut 8x40 sheets. > > I wouldn't be surprised if you have trouble finding someone to do that, I've heard people have trouble just getting the sheets that size delivered much less cut. Most pre-cut boat kits are built with smaller sheets -traditional method | 22044|22000|2010-01-12 19:19:43|Denis Buggy|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|when you consult the pros i.e. the people who make paint and have to stand over their product . you get a different approach and a different result . I spray galvanize steel and plastic and aluminium and bare steel and each have their own primers . think you are smarter than the paint makers and you better have a lot of time and money to remove a mess from whatever you are painting and start again . the best way for you to avoid confusion is to down load the data sheets from the paint manufactures website . TRY AKZO NOBEL --OR--SIKKENS all you need is a little common sense and a viscosity cup which is cheap and you can make your own --( they will give you cups for nothing with a big order and you follow the data sheet instructions which are free they start with the degreasing and they even show which grit to use to prepare then degrease again and use tack rags to take any dust off and you are ready for your etch primer which has acid as a thinner //catalyst-- and the acid etches the metal by removing a layer and allowing the primer to bond in the process the real thing works anything else is a joke and a waste of time and paint/money . THE DATA SHEET WILL SAY FOR PROFESSIONAL USE ONLY -- FORGET ANY MASK YOU CAN BUY OR GET A LOAN OF THEY DO NOT WORK EVEN THE BEST 3 M OR ANY OTHER JUST FORGET EVER TRYING TO FILTER ACID OR ICIONIATE --CYANIDE IT DOES NOT FILTER . you must rent or borrow a full face mask with a horse of a compressor in order to blast your face with clean air and drive your spray gun . piston compressors have a oil mist and are illegal you must use a screw compressor for clean air and it must pass through a 3 stage filter with moisture removal and-- a air dryer as 2 pack paint will not like moisture . THE HOSES YOU USE WILL USUALLY BE USED FOR SMALL POWER TOOLS AND WILL HAVE SOME OIL IN THE LINE TO LUBRICATE THE SMALL AIR TOOLS THIS WILL COST YOU THOUSANDS IF YOU MIX IT WITH 2 PACK . you cannot sand the etch primer - you will have to be happy with whatever job you have done and you are now ready to paint . KEEP EVERY JACKASS AWAY FROM THE BOAT AS THEY FIND IT IRRISTIABLE TO RUB A FINGER ALONG A NEW PAINT SURFACE AND THEIR SKIN OIL WILL MAKE THE PAINT PART LIKE THE SEA OF GALILEE JUST BEFORE IT DRIES. FOLLOW THE DATA SHEET --REALLY FOLLOW THE DATA SHEET - DO NOT ADJUST THE DATA SHEET EVEN A LITTLE OR A DROP EVEN IF YOU RUN OUT OF ANYTHING -- JUST DO WHAT THEY SAY AT THE TEMPERATURE THEY SAY AND A 4000, PAINT JOB WILL NOT GO TO WASTE . stick with one paint manufacturer not supplier as each manufacturer has designed their paints to work as a system and each stage and ingredient will not react with each other , you also keep your technical back up with one manufacturer as they will not want to know you if you introduce any product into the equation other than theirs as you now have destroyed any warranty their product has by mixing it with another mix . this is a constant danger with paint from different suppliers as some use more thinners than others also make sure you use 2 pack acrylic as you cannot sand 2 pack polyurethane and polish properly after to repair a finish sorry about all the big type but I am the chief culprit for re inventing the wheel and thinking I can get away with it -- . denis buggy In the tropics bare aluminium gets hot enough to get serious burns off. So you have to paint it if you don't want to walkin a frying pan. Below the water you have to paint it ti keep antifouling on. An aluminium buider told me the only real success he had painting aluminium was to sandblast it lightly. A penny dropped in the bilge or any copper will corrode it right thru so the bilges should be painted. Sprayfoam on aluminium can be easily wiped of with the bare had so it should be at least primed inside. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rooster" wrote: > > > You could build with aluminum;faster cutting, faster welding and no sand blasting and/or expensive paint job. > > Just a thought > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22045|22000|2010-01-12 20:49:35|Aaron Williams|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Denis Good job on explaning it, Sounds like a NACE inspector telling it like it is. not always what we want to here. Aaron --- On Tue, 1/12/10, Denis Buggy wrote: From: Denis Buggy Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month.. Dream or reality? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 3:19 PM   when you consult the pros i.e. the people who make paint and have to stand over their product . you get a different approach and a different result . I spray galvanize steel and plastic and aluminium and bare steel and each have their own primers . think you are smarter than the paint makers and you better have a lot of time and money to remove a mess from whatever you are painting and start again . the best way for you to avoid confusion is to down load the data sheets from the paint manufactures website . TRY AKZO NOBEL --OR--SIKKENS all you need is a little common sense and a viscosity cup which is cheap and you can make your own --( they will give you cups for nothing with a big order and you follow the data sheet instructions which are free they start with the degreasing and they even show which grit to use to prepare then degrease again and use tack rags to take any dust off and you are ready for your etch primer which has acid as a thinner //catalyst-- and the acid etches the metal by removing a layer and allowing the primer to bond in the process the real thing works anything else is a joke and a waste of time and paint/money . THE DATA SHEET WILL SAY FOR PROFESSIONAL USE ONLY -- FORGET ANY MASK YOU CAN BUY OR GET A LOAN OF THEY DO NOT WORK EVEN THE BEST 3 M OR ANY OTHER JUST FORGET EVER TRYING TO FILTER ACID OR ICIONIATE --CYANIDE IT DOES NOT FILTER . you must rent or borrow a full face mask with a horse of a compressor in order to blast your face with clean air and drive your spray gun . piston compressors have a oil mist and are illegal you must use a screw compressor for clean air and it must pass through a 3 stage filter with moisture removal and-- a air dryer as 2 pack paint will not like moisture . THE HOSES YOU USE WILL USUALLY BE USED FOR SMALL POWER TOOLS AND WILL HAVE SOME OIL IN THE LINE TO LUBRICATE THE SMALL AIR TOOLS THIS WILL COST YOU THOUSANDS IF YOU MIX IT WITH 2 PACK . you cannot sand the etch primer - you will have to be happy with whatever job you have done and you are now ready to paint . KEEP EVERY JACKASS AWAY FROM THE BOAT AS THEY FIND IT IRRISTIABLE TO RUB A FINGER ALONG A NEW PAINT SURFACE AND THEIR SKIN OIL WILL MAKE THE PAINT PART LIKE THE SEA OF GALILEE JUST BEFORE IT DRIES. FOLLOW THE DATA SHEET --REALLY FOLLOW THE DATA SHEET - DO NOT ADJUST THE DATA SHEET EVEN A LITTLE OR A DROP EVEN IF YOU RUN OUT OF ANYTHING -- JUST DO WHAT THEY SAY AT THE TEMPERATURE THEY SAY AND A 4000, PAINT JOB WILL NOT GO TO WASTE . stick with one paint manufacturer not supplier as each manufacturer has designed their paints to work as a system and each stage and ingredient will not react with each other , you also keep your technical back up with one manufacturer as they will not want to know you if you introduce any product into the equation other than theirs as you now have destroyed any warranty their product has by mixing it with another mix . this is a constant danger with paint from different suppliers as some use more thinners than others also make sure you use 2 pack acrylic as you cannot sand 2 pack polyurethane and polish properly after to repair a finish sorry about all the big type but I am the chief culprit for re inventing the wheel and thinking I can get away with it -- . denis buggy In the tropics bare aluminium gets hot enough to get serious burns off. So you have to paint it if you don't want to walkin a frying pan. Below the water you have to paint it ti keep antifouling on. An aluminium buider told me the only real success he had painting aluminium was to sandblast it lightly. A penny dropped in the bilge or any copper will corrode it right thru so the bilges should be painted. Sprayfoam on aluminium can be easily wiped of with the bare had so it should be at least primed inside. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "rooster" wrote: > > > You could build with aluminum;faster cutting, faster welding and no sand blasting and/or expensive paint job. > > Just a thought > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22046|22000|2010-01-12 21:14:24|Doug Jackson|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I've got no experience pulling a hull together, but I seems to me, after several paper models, that there is a fairly good chance that CNC hull parts are not going to fit up well on an origami design. Even with perfect mates for the two sides the outcome of stitching the sides together might be different if crew A put more bracing from the ground to the bulwarks and crew B let most of the weight be distributed through the center line. The difference would be in the angle formed between two plates at the chines resulting in slightly different beams. Maybe you could correct that by just pulling or pushing the sides out the mate with the deck, but that might make up for the work you were trying to save. I'd be interested to hear what others think. Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 12, 2010 5:36:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? Just got off the phone with steel supplier. Pre-primed sheet 3/16 8x40 plasma PRE-CUT, DELIVERED to Portland - $2000. "These plates are normally ABS Grade A and are primed with International' s primer Interplate NQA-937 ¾-1mil dft 933-gray." The supplier can plasma cut 2(two) 8x40 sheets at the same time on CNC table 17x85ft. They just need CNC files. So, I see VERY BIG reason to convert plans to CNC files. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Wheel abraded and zinc primed (need to verify if available). Cost more, but eliminates sand-blasting. Full length plates. Part CNC pre-cut. I will check if close-by suppliers have CNC tables able to cut 8x40 sheets. > > I wouldn't be surprised if you have trouble finding someone to do that, I've heard people have trouble just getting the sheets that size delivered much less cut. Most pre-cut boat kits are built with smaller sheets -traditional method | 22047|22000|2010-01-12 22:13:32|Aaron Williams|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Doug One would be advised to check the measurements on the inside before pre-cutting the wood work. Every engineered drawing I have worked with had the disclaimer "Field Verifiy". Aaron --- On Tue, 1/12/10, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month.. Dream or reality? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 5:13 PM   I've got no experience pulling a hull together, but I seems to me, after several paper models, that there is a fairly good chance that CNC hull parts are not going to fit up well on an origami design. Even with perfect mates for the two sides the outcome of stitching the sides together might be different if crew A put more bracing from the ground to the bulwarks and crew B let most of the weight be distributed through the center line. The difference would be in the angle formed between two plates at the chines resulting in slightly different beams. Maybe you could correct that by just pulling or pushing the sides out the mate with the deck, but that might make up for the work you were trying to save. I'd be interested to hear what others think. Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ____________ _________ _________ __ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Tue, January 12, 2010 5:36:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? Just got off the phone with steel supplier. Pre-primed sheet 3/16 8x40 plasma PRE-CUT, DELIVERED to Portland - $2000. "These plates are normally ABS Grade A and are primed with International' s primer Interplate NQA-937 ¾-1mil dft 933-gray." The supplier can plasma cut 2(two) 8x40 sheets at the same time on CNC table 17x85ft. They just need CNC files. So, I see VERY BIG reason to convert plans to CNC files. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Wheel abraded and zinc primed (need to verify if available). Cost more, but eliminates sand-blasting. Full length plates. Part CNC pre-cut. I will check if close-by suppliers have CNC tables able to cut 8x40 sheets. > > I wouldn't be surprised if you have trouble finding someone to do that, I've heard people have trouble just getting the sheets that size delivered much less cut. Most pre-cut boat kits are built with smaller sheets -traditional method [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22048|22000|2010-01-12 23:29:34|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I really do not see why exactly identical hull's patterns, pulled with the same sequence would be different. If 2 halves aligned exactly, it should give proper beam ratio throughout the hull when pulled to a proper beam in 3 points. I believe, deck plates are cut from the plans anyway. Rudder, keels, skeg could be pre-cut too. Cabin, wheel house plates could be cut over-sized and trimmed (but I am not sure if it is really necessary). Does anybody know, if it is possible to use ALL pre-cut parts? Or some require custom fitting? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > I've got no experience pulling a hull together, but I seems to me, after several paper models, that there is a fairly good chance that CNC hull parts are not going to fit up well on an origami design. Even with perfect mates for the two sides the outcome of stitching the sides together might be different if crew A put more bracing from the ground to the bulwarks and crew B let most of the weight be distributed through the center line. The difference would be in the angle formed between two plates at the chines resulting in slightly different beams. Maybe you could correct that by just pulling or pushing the sides out the mate with the deck, but that might make up for the work you were trying to save. | 22050|22050|2010-01-13 06:09:42|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Alluminium interiors|Alluminium interiors. That's sound to me really interesting. Micke, I would like to know why have you chosen to do like that. What is the thikness of the alluminium you have used and how have you finished it. Have you calcolate the extimate weight of the interiors compare to playwood? If we can cut the hull with CNC sistem, we can do the same with alluminium interiors (easy). Steel hull and alluminium interiors, very quick. Thanks Alfredo (Italy) > I just painted my aluminum BS 36. It took me a week of prep cleaning to bright. Then wiped by hand with solvent cleaner until the rags came up clean. Then wiped with water. My knees will never be the same. > > We then sprayed 2 coats of high build 2 part, then 2 coats of 2 part color then 2 coats of 2 part clear clear. > > The masking took 2 of us a complete day. The primer took a day for 2 coats. The same for the color and clear. We sprayed wet on wet. > > We did the house and cabin and decks first with 8 coats in the high traffic areas and 6 in the low. My cockpit floor is probably an 1/8" thick. > > I was exhausted after this job was done. > > I had a quote to paint the boat of $35,000. > > We did it for a fifth of that with high tech paint and lots of sweat. > > I haven't read all of the messages here re this subject which I will do now. > > You can build a boat quickly if u are not working, have all materials on hand, no wife, no kids, unlimited funds, don't look for deals, live where the weather is perfect, ............. > | 22051|22051|2010-01-13 08:33:17|sitefix|organization|OK, The post about the plasma table being set up to cut everything but the hulls caught my eye. A couple thoughts crossed my mind. ***1-ONE- first*** a) well, this sorta takes away from the BB philosophy and approach. which I think sums up to keep the cost down to a manageable level that most normal "dreamers" can deal with as well as keeping the building techniques realistic to the same type folks as well. b) this isn't a religious site, and maybe having some options here and there might be nice for those that can afford them. My skills with a torch are ok. Nothing great. I just got a new tip, and am going to go get some 3/16 to "play" with. I figure some 6" X 8' band and will cut many 2.5" X 6" pieces to make some coupons to weld with. Yeh, I am old school and plan to do some different positions and joint types. 3/32 as well as 1/8 rod, and try some different rod, 6010-11-13 and 7014-18. Yeh, I got DC as well as AC. I really enjoy welding enough that when I don't run a good looking bead I am not happy. I used to erect and modify steel buildings, so I have welded a little bit, but no formal training. Anyways, back to noticing a few recent post. I would like to know where the cnc table is?? And what the cost factors would be. Personally, if the cost is $1500.00 more than a straight drop, then I would rather put the money into a plasma rig. All I need is a compressor and filters and I have something left over to barter with after the project. If the difference is only a couple hundred, then, wow, who could resist???? ***2-TWO***, My second notice was that "wildE" mentioned his location of wheeled and primed steel in 40' delivered. OK, it took me many calls just to find bare 8'X40' lengths here on the east coast. It would have to come out of detroit, ship piggy back on another load to philly then dropped to me 3 hrs away. So, what's the chance of organizing a list of suppliers????? Steel companies that folks have been successful with. Their location and numbers with a current dated price per pound prior to travel??? This gives someone something to start with. Maybe a file folder to be updated regularly?? ***3-Thirdly*** OK- i am in the pre-stage, but am active on practical projects right now. I am thinking that I would really like to hear from some that have completed or at least are ahead of me and review a list of: Woulda couldas shouldas. Things that they would do different if they would do it again. I know how easy it is to get tunnel vision on a big project. Especially when things are going well and moving along quickly. How about posting some warnings, easy things to miss, or get out of sequence. D@anm, I guess I am just to used to a procedural checklist. Brent's list of common mistakes are great. I have printed this out and started a project folder. It will be kept in front. Maybe some other posters have some insight into their own overcomings of certain struggles in the projects??? ***4-fourthly*** Inorganic zinc weldthrough spray on??? I gotta check this out. Anyone else use this??? Any pros and cons with it?? ***5-fifthly*** What was the hardest thing to do / weld / fit etc on your build out??? I am thinking that I should start practicing on that. I am heading to the scrapyard today, I'm gonna see what they have for SS and other such when I pick up my 3/16 ribbon. Ok, I really did not start this to be this long. Just sorta happened. I do look forward to your insights. Mac| 22052|22052|2010-01-13 09:55:42|sitefix|dink / tender|my last post went on a bit. my apoligies. I am looking at Brent's book on the page with his dinghy outline and paragraph.. I have downloaded the 4 files on this site showing his dink made of aluminum in the same manner as the other boats. Ok, where do i start. I get some aluminum. Does it really need to be a marine grade?? I am gonna see what the scrap yard has in 4 x 8 sheets 1/8". Any series to stay away from?? How about a list of acceptable in preferable order Do I blow up and grid the page that has the little outline of the dink?? Then try to loft from that?? I would like to try this project. I know it's aluminum and I plan to use steel on the main hull, but I think I have access to a spool gun that I can run off my welder, so again. Book in hand, where do I start. Thanks for any good points. mac| 22054|22051|2010-01-13 11:51:26|wild_explorer|Re: organization|There are several big CNC cutting tables around Portland, OR. As this time, CNC plasma cutting of 3/16 8x40 sheet is around $250-300 per sheet depending on the density of cutting (time). It is more economical to cut big sheets - less time to set up CNC table. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > Anyways, back to noticing a few recent post. > I would like to know where the cnc table is?? And what the cost factors would be. Personally, if the cost is $1500.00 more than a straight drop, then I would rather put the money into a plasma rig. | 22055|22052|2010-01-13 12:15:39|Aaron Williams|Re: dink / tender|Mac Yes you want to use marine grade aluminum for any submerged saltwater applactions like the hull. If you want to only use it in fresh water then you can get 5052 grade aluminum but it is a softer material than the 5086 marine grade. You would weld ether with 5056 aluminum wire. If you have never welded before I would recomend you get someone to teach you how to weld the aluminum,and the steel if you are going to build your own boat. Your life will depend on it. Aaron   --- On Wed, 1/13/10, sitefix wrote: From: sitefix Subject: [origamiboats] dink / tender To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 13, 2010, 5:53 AM   my last post went on a bit. my apoligies. I am looking at Brent's book on the page with his dinghy outline and paragraph.. I have downloaded the 4 files on this site showing his dink made of aluminum in the same manner as the other boats. Ok, where do i start. I get some aluminum. Does it really need to be a marine grade?? I am gonna see what the scrap yard has in 4 x 8 sheets 1/8". Any series to stay away from?? How about a list of acceptable in preferable order Do I blow up and grid the page that has the little outline of the dink?? Then try to loft from that?? I would like to try this project. I know it's aluminum and I plan to use steel on the main hull, but I think I have access to a spool gun that I can run off my welder, so again. Book in hand, where do I start. Thanks for any good points. mac [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22056|22056|2010-01-13 12:31:49|qzoozq|Jetdrive?|Hi Folks, I'm new to the group, my name is Kai, I'm from Germany and i have just received my Brent-Bible and the 36footer plans. I plan to start building in the next couple of years and want to prefabricate as much as I can in advance. I will dare to ask this question because I know you have a heart for heretics: has anyone ever fitted a cruising yacht with a jetdrive? Just an idea. To my mind it would have certain advantages (no drag of propeller, no parts outside the boat, no gearbox...), I know it doesn't have the same efficency as a propeller and needs more rpms, but I want to sail most of the time really. What I don't know: will it provide enough propulsion? Any comments? Thanks Kai| 22057|22052|2010-01-13 13:03:28|John Fisher|Re: dink / tender|One thing to watch out for with the Al dink is theft. When metals got valuable, I think Brent had his stolen. Personally I would go wood or glass that looks really ratty to keep it from getting stolen. John On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Mac > Yes you want to use marine grade aluminum for any submerged saltwater > applactions like the hull. If you want to only use it in fresh water then > you can get 5052 grade aluminum but it is a softer material than the 5086 > marine grade. You would weld ether with 5056 aluminum wire. If you have > never welded before I would recomend you get someone to teach you how to > weld the aluminum,and the steel if you are going to build your own boat. > Your life will depend on it. > Aaron > > --- On Wed, 1/13/10, sitefix > > wrote: > > From: sitefix > > Subject: [origamiboats] dink / tender > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, January 13, 2010, 5:53 AM > > > > > my last post went on a bit. my apoligies. > > I am looking at Brent's book on the page with his dinghy outline and > paragraph.. I have downloaded the 4 files on this site showing his dink made > of aluminum in the same manner as the other boats. > > Ok, where do i start. > I get some aluminum. Does it really need to be a marine grade?? > I am gonna see what the scrap yard has in 4 x 8 sheets 1/8". > Any series to stay away from?? How about a list of acceptable in preferable > order > > Do I blow up and grid the page that has the little outline of the dink?? > Then try to loft from that?? > > I would like to try this project. I know it's aluminum and I plan to use > steel on the main hull, but I think I have access to a spool gun that I can > run off my welder, so again. Book in hand, where do I start. > > Thanks for any good points. > > mac > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22058|22056|2010-01-13 13:30:18|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Jetdrive?|It will work, of course, if you have a big enough jet. You need a certain minimum size of diameter for the jet, to get reasonable push for the application of pushing a sailboat along. Thus one from a jet ski is not going to work too well ... it will simply cavitate all day long. If you can source a suitably sized one, I am sure it would work. Due to the nature of the beast, it would probably be the fastest BS boat around ;) You face then 2 problems; The decent sized jet needs a fairly big motor. Consider that even small jet skis have motors in the 50-100 Hp and up size ... I suspect that at a minimum you would need about 50, maybe 70 Hp to make a jet bigger than a jetski work. This is probably the low minimum to make it work at all. The second problem is paying for it all. When I talked to two designers and builders of jet drives, about 15 years back, just the bare drive for around 100 Hp was 10.000$... Add motor to this. So the conclusions: The physics are "wrong" for this. Even though a BS boat will move with very little push, like all sailboats, getting this push means lots of revs, a big motor and a big jet. At normal sailboat speeds in the under 7 knots range, you are still wasting 80-90% of the energy due to how a normal jet drive works. So a 100 Hp jet drive might give you 10 Hp of action, or about 5 knots. It might be possible to get a different turbine, one meant for lower speeds. This should maybe double your efficiency, and you might then get 6 knots of speed. Going from 10 Hp real to 20 Hp will probably raise your speed from 5 to 6 knots. Given the physics, there is no reason that a jet drive cannot be built for say 15 knots max speed. If you are on this forum, you probably do not wish to pay for a custom manifold and propulsor .. And at 200 Hp you might get into the 9 knot range. OF course, at 300 Hp you might get into the 15 knots area ...] This could be tested, if someone with a BS could ask a jetski or jet boat to tow them for 5 minutes. > > > Hi Folks, > > I'm new to the group, my name is Kai, I'm from Germany and i have just > received my Brent-Bible and the 36footer plans. I plan to start > building in the next couple of years and want to prefabricate as much > as I can in advance. > > I will dare to ask this question because I know you have a heart for > heretics: has anyone ever fitted a cruising yacht with a jetdrive? > Just an idea. To my mind it would have certain advantages (no drag of > propeller, no parts outside the boat, no gearbox...), I know it > doesn't have the same efficency as a propeller and needs more rpms, > but I want to sail most of the time really. What I don't know: will it > provide enough propulsion? > > Any comments? > > Thanks > > Kai > | 22059|22000|2010-01-13 14:04:37|theboilerflue|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Also if you get a professional sprayer the painting part will go fast - you'll still have to wait about 8 hours or so between all 6-8 coats| 22060|22000|2010-01-13 14:05:33|theboilerflue|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|you might as well paint it all at the same time here's the surface area calculations I used when buying my paint: 36x8x6(2 hullsides and deck both sides) since the hull plates to begin with are 36x8 I just asume abolute the same for the deck and cabin so 1728 lets say 1800 or 2000 square feet for a 40 footer it'd be more around 2300 or 2500 > > BS36 - 650-700 sq.ft > > BS40 - 950-1000 sq.ft > > Now I can call to painting services and get estimates. | 22061|22000|2010-01-13 14:07:21|theboilerflue|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|35000 that's nuts! that's more than my whole boat paint included what do they think they're trying to pull? > > I had a quote to paint the boat of $35,000. > > We did it for a fifth of that with high tech paint and lots of sweat. | 22062|22000|2010-01-13 14:21:06|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|There is a vast difference between yacht glossy finishes and usable workboat level finishes. It could be they aimed for a "yacht" finish. This could involve say 200 kg of filler, 4-6 filler sessions, and maybe 500 hours of fairing work. + 50 hours masking. > > > 35000 that's nuts! that's more than my whole boat paint included what > do they think they're trying to pull? > > > I had a quote to paint the boat of $35,000. > > > > We did it for a fifth of that with high tech paint and lots of sweat. > | 22063|22050|2010-01-13 14:21:58|mickeyolaf|Re: Alluminium interiors|I intended to finish the interior in wood. Teak plywood for most of it. Then as the tanks and sole and battery compartments went in in aluminum I just decided to continue with metal. There will be a wood facing on alot of the visible metal with paint between. I also thought welded bulkheads and sole etc etc would be stronger than tabbed in plywood. Aluminum also doesn't rot. I have designed huge ventilation into this boat with solar 24/7 4" vents fore and aft, 14 opening ports, hatch, dutch door. The whole interior is sprayed with 1.5" foam. There is a Webasco diesel furnace to keep her dry in the winter. Roland brought up a good point to me early in this build that my metal interior would sweat so I've done everything I can to prevent that. I don't have my notes with me re the boat. I can't remember all of the scantlings for the metal sizes. I will let u know. I'm writing this on the beach in Mexico. Should I order u guys a Corona or a Pacifico? When u take a beer out of the ice here it sweats condensation. Usually it's me sweating at work or on the boat so this is a nice change. Now I have to decide should I have a lime in this beer or not? Did I mention the ladies here? Some have nice lines. Some are top heavy which is ok. A couple have wineglass transoms. Some of the bikinis are under canvassed. The waves are loud today. There's about a 10 knot breeze. > > > > I haven't read all of the messages here re this subject which I will do now. > > > > You can build a boat quickly if u are not working, have all materials on hand, no wife, no kids, unlimited funds, don't look for deals, live where the weather is perfect, ............. > > > | 22064|22000|2010-01-13 14:27:41|ngmoore53|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|If you're already in the SF Bay Area you might want to check out Mare Island. I think Vallejo was still trying to get businesses to locate on the island. Mare was the diesel sub fleet base and they have two launch ramps and two relatively narrow dry docks on the eastern side. There were many large vacant warehouse buildings right at the dry docks and a couple of boatyards in the Vallejo area. You'd have to check out their condition and cost, but they undoubtedly have the electrical service to run a few welders. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Yep, there are lot of big scrapyards in Oakland. I might cross out SF Bay Area, as possible building site, just because of sale taxes. It is possible to find reasonably priced building site at ex-military base in Alameda. The bad part - it add 10% to a price of everything sold here. Another problem - registation more expenseve. > > Portland area still looks pretty good. No sale taxes, close to steel suppliers (Eugene and Seattle). Pretty good weather during summer. Should be a lot of scrapyards around Portland too. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > We found some great scrapyards in Oakland. They even had ss rods in the metal can for $1 a pound and cheap military surplus epoxies from Seattle area. > > > | 22065|22050|2010-01-13 14:33:54|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Alluminium interiors|Where in Mexico ? .. enquiring minds want to know. Know the country very well, driven all over it on 3 month adventure trips, been there 8 times, got my divemaster certs there... Like the place, nice people, the food is great. And, these days, "tambien en espanol, naturalmente". I remember well how the undercanvassed biminis would flap enticingly in the breeze when a rubio with a chilango accent appeared. It could easily lead to very enjoyable sailing lessons, explaining the finer points of how such things can happen.. If you are working on the boat down there, I would very much like details of the setup. Availability of tools, marina or boatyard costs, etc .. OR do you just have a place where you can work on the boat but need to be more/less self sufficient regarding all equipment. How is availability of paints, foams, can you rent compressors, gensets etc. > I intended to finish the interior in wood. Teak plywood for most of it. > > Then as the tanks and sole and battery compartments went in in > aluminum I just decided to continue with metal. There will be a wood > facing on alot of the visible metal with paint between. > > I also thought welded bulkheads and sole etc etc would be stronger > than tabbed in plywood. Aluminum also doesn't rot. > > I have designed huge ventilation into this boat with solar 24/7 4" > vents fore and aft, 14 opening ports, hatch, dutch door. The whole > interior is sprayed with 1.5" foam. > > There is a Webasco diesel furnace to keep her dry in the winter. > > Roland brought up a good point to me early in this build that my metal > interior would sweat so I've done everything I can to prevent that. > > I don't have my notes with me re the boat. I can't remember all of the > scantlings for the metal sizes. I will let u know. > > I'm writing this on the beach in Mexico. Should I order u guys a > Corona or a Pacifico? > > When u take a beer out of the ice here it sweats condensation. Usually > it's me sweating at work or on the boat so this is a nice change. > > Now I have to decide should I have a lime in this beer or not? > > Did I mention the ladies here? Some have nice lines. Some are top > heavy which is ok. A couple have wineglass transoms. Some of the > bikinis are under canvassed. > > The waves are loud today. There's about a 10 knot breeze. > > > > > > > I haven't read all of the messages here re this subject which I > will do now. > > > > > > You can build a boat quickly if u are not working, have all > materials on hand, no wife, no kids, unlimited funds, don't look for > deals, live where the weather is perfect, ............. > | 22066|22000|2010-01-13 15:20:57|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 07:07:12PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > 35000 that's nuts! that's more than my whole boat paint included what > do they think they're trying to pull? That's what the high-end "yacht" painters charge. It's stupid and it's insane, but as long as there are people out there who will pay it - and there are lots of them - that's what they'll continue to charge. When I had Ulysses out in a yard, I got to know one of these guys. One of the things I needed to do while I was out was to paint the hull above the rubrail and up to the toerail - call it about 34'*2' * 2 sides, or less than 150^2', four coats of epoxy plus a urethane topcoat (it had already had a protective layer of epoxy sprayed on after sandblasting.) He thought about it, then gave me a price, including a "buddy discount": $4500. That's *not* including the paint, by the way. My wife thinks I'm a gentleman because I *didn't* tell him to go straight to hell. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22067|22056|2010-01-13 16:29:52|Doug Jackson|Re: Jetdrive?|Kai I've got a diesel powered jet pump on a yet to be tested 5,000lb boat/submarine. I built a speed up gear box that goes between the 160hp Ford 7.3IDI and an older model Berkley 12JC-A Jet Pump. It's a low cost solution as Jet Pumps go. About $1000 for a used 7.3, $300 from a used Berkley, and $800 for the parts for the gear box. I can see some additional advantages for a Jet pump on a sailboat. Saver on marine life as well as human swimmers. No possible damage from logs or rocks. No snag possibility for sea-weeds. The intake grate will often prevent rope and plastic from being ingested. If it does happen, you will be able to clear it without going under water. You will need a pump with the clean out port outside the hull. My Berkley 12JC-A has the clean out port inside the hull which is a great way to sink a boat if you open that while you are in the water. But I don't think your looking to build a submarine. You can also rig it for a great rooster tail! You can celebrate your departure from each anchorage with a fountain of water, put out fires on docks or vessels, or hose down any boat behind you. You can see more about my setup here: http://www.submarineboat.com/engine_and_jet_drive.htm Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ________________________________ From: qzoozq To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, January 13, 2010 11:31:19 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Jetdrive? Hi Folks, I'm new to the group, my name is Kai, I'm from Germany and i have just received my Brent-Bible and the 36footer plans. I plan to start building in the next couple of years and want to prefabricate as much as I can in advance. I will dare to ask this question because I know you have a heart for heretics: has anyone ever fitted a cruising yacht with a jetdrive? Just an idea. To my mind it would have certain advantages (no drag of propeller, no parts outside the boat, no gearbox...), I know it doesn't have the same efficency as a propeller and needs more rpms, but I want to sail most of the time really. What I don't know: will it provide enough propulsion? Any comments? Thanks Kai| 22068|22052|2010-01-13 16:38:57|brentswain38|Re: dink / tender|You could build it from a blowup of the one in the book, or you could experiment with models bases on the one in the book. If I were building her again I'd make the transom wider for greater stability. I did have pits and pinholes in the bottom after 20 years, but this may have been from copper filings tracked off the dock or other areas , on my shoes. I would clean preferably sandblast the area where my feet go, the bottom insides and give her several coats of cold galvanizing primer. Only the bottom inside was corroded the rest was in perfect condition. She did get stolen when scrap prices were extremely high. Finding a mig welder was also a problem for changes, or filing the pinholes. With fibreglass, I can do modifications or repairs anywhere. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > my last post went on a bit. my apoligies. > > I am looking at Brent's book on the page with his dinghy outline and paragraph.. I have downloaded the 4 files on this site showing his dink made of aluminum in the same manner as the other boats. > > Ok, where do i start. > I get some aluminum. Does it really need to be a marine grade?? > I am gonna see what the scrap yard has in 4 x 8 sheets 1/8". > Any series to stay away from?? How about a list of acceptable in preferable order > > Do I blow up and grid the page that has the little outline of the dink?? > Then try to loft from that?? > > I would like to try this project. I know it's aluminum and I plan to use steel on the main hull, but I think I have access to a spool gun that I can run off my welder, so again. Book in hand, where do I start. > > Thanks for any good points. > > mac > | 22069|22050|2010-01-13 16:43:58|brentswain38|Re: Alluminium interiors|Each aluminium surface connected to the hull will act as a cooling fin and have major condensation problems. It will make for a very cold interior on cold frosty nights. I have spent about $50 on my interior, as plywood for scrounging is everywhere. This is definitely not the case with aluminium. I'd wait to see how it works out before making any decisions in that direction. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > Alluminium interiors. That's sound to me really interesting. > > Micke, I would like to know why have you chosen to do like that. > What is the thikness of the alluminium you have used and how have you finished it. Have you calcolate the extimate weight of the interiors compare to playwood? > If we can cut the hull with CNC sistem, we can do the same with alluminium interiors (easy). Steel hull and alluminium interiors, very quick. > Thanks > Alfredo (Italy) > > > > > > I just painted my aluminum BS 36. It took me a week of prep cleaning to bright. Then wiped by hand with solvent cleaner until the rags came up clean. Then wiped with water. My knees will never be the same. > > > > We then sprayed 2 coats of high build 2 part, then 2 coats of 2 part color then 2 coats of 2 part clear clear. > > > > The masking took 2 of us a complete day. The primer took a day for 2 coats. The same for the color and clear. We sprayed wet on wet. > > > > We did the house and cabin and decks first with 8 coats in the high traffic areas and 6 in the low. My cockpit floor is probably an 1/8" thick. > > > > I was exhausted after this job was done. > > > > I had a quote to paint the boat of $35,000. > > > > We did it for a fifth of that with high tech paint and lots of sweat. > > > > I haven't read all of the messages here re this subject which I will do now. > > > > You can build a boat quickly if u are not working, have all materials on hand, no wife, no kids, unlimited funds, don't look for deals, live where the weather is perfect, ............. > > > | 22070|22000|2010-01-13 16:51:19|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Using all pre cut parts is no problem. When you join 6 square plates perfectly corner to corner, the shape you end up with is a foregone conclusion. There is zero chance of it being anything but square. The same is true of more complex shapes like a hull and deck, regardless of how it is supported or any other factors. Steel is very unforgiving in determining which shape it will take . It doesn't stretch. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I really do not see why exactly identical hull's patterns, pulled with the same sequence would be different. If 2 halves aligned exactly, it should give proper beam ratio throughout the hull when pulled to a proper beam in 3 points. > > I believe, deck plates are cut from the plans anyway. Rudder, keels, skeg could be pre-cut too. Cabin, wheel house plates could be cut over-sized and trimmed (but I am not sure if it is really necessary). > > Does anybody know, if it is possible to use ALL pre-cut parts? Or some require custom fitting? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > I've got no experience pulling a hull together, but I seems to me, after several paper models, that there is a fairly good chance that CNC hull parts are not going to fit up well on an origami design. Even with perfect mates for the two sides the outcome of stitching the sides together might be different if crew A put more bracing from the ground to the bulwarks and crew B let most of the weight be distributed through the center line. The difference would be in the angle formed between two plates at the chines resulting in slightly different beams. Maybe you could correct that by just pulling or pushing the sides out the mate with the deck, but that might make up for the work you were trying to save. > | 22071|22051|2010-01-13 16:56:25|brentswain38|Re: organization|Some prices quoted by suppliers includes delivery, some don't.That can change the eventual cost. Carboweld is what we use a lot of here, We've had no problems with it, but it goes on thin, and one should give the shell another coat as soon as it is pulled together.Those who haven't, and take too long have ended up having to sandblast, which partly defeats the purpose of buying the plate shotblasted and primed ( except for inside.). International Interzinc works, but goes on a bit thick and the fumes can be rough. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > OK, > > The post about the plasma table being set up to cut everything but the hulls caught my eye. A couple thoughts crossed my mind. > ***1-ONE- first*** > a) well, this sorta takes away from the BB philosophy and approach. which I think sums up to keep the cost down to a manageable level that most normal "dreamers" can deal with as well as keeping the building techniques realistic to the same type folks as well. > b) this isn't a religious site, and maybe having some options here and there might be nice for those that can afford them. > > My skills with a torch are ok. Nothing great. I just got a new tip, and am going to go get some 3/16 to "play" with. I figure some 6" X 8' band and will cut many 2.5" X 6" pieces to make some coupons to weld with. > > Yeh, I am old school and plan to do some different positions and joint types. 3/32 as well as 1/8 rod, and try some different rod, 6010-11-13 and 7014-18. Yeh, I got DC as well as AC. I really enjoy welding enough that when I don't run a good looking bead I am not happy. I used to erect and modify steel buildings, so I have welded a little bit, but no formal training. > > Anyways, back to noticing a few recent post. > I would like to know where the cnc table is?? And what the cost factors would be. Personally, if the cost is $1500.00 more than a straight drop, then I would rather put the money into a plasma rig. All I need is a compressor and filters and I have something left over to barter with after the project. If the difference is only a couple hundred, then, wow, who could resist???? > > ***2-TWO***, My second notice was that "wildE" mentioned his location of wheeled and primed steel in 40' delivered. OK, it took me many calls just to find bare 8'X40' lengths here on the east coast. It would have to come out of detroit, ship piggy back on another load to philly then dropped to me 3 hrs away. > > So, what's the chance of organizing a list of suppliers????? > Steel companies that folks have been successful with. Their location and numbers with a current dated price per pound prior to travel??? > > This gives someone something to start with. Maybe a file folder to be updated regularly?? > > ***3-Thirdly*** > OK- i am in the pre-stage, but am active on practical projects right now. I am thinking that I would really like to hear from some that have completed or at least are ahead of me and review a list of: > Woulda couldas shouldas. Things that they would do different if they would do it again. I know how easy it is to get tunnel vision on a big project. Especially when things are going well and moving along quickly. How about posting some warnings, easy things to miss, or get out of sequence. D@anm, I guess I am just to used to a procedural checklist. > > Brent's list of common mistakes are great. I have printed this out and started a project folder. It will be kept in front. Maybe some other posters have some insight into their own overcomings of certain struggles in the projects??? > > ***4-fourthly*** > Inorganic zinc weldthrough spray on??? I gotta check this out. > Anyone else use this??? Any pros and cons with it?? > > ***5-fifthly*** > What was the hardest thing to do / weld / fit etc on your build out??? > I am thinking that I should start practicing on that. > I am heading to the scrapyard today, I'm gonna see what they have for SS and other such when I pick up my 3/16 ribbon. > > Ok, I really did not start this to be this long. Just sorta happened. > I do look forward to your insights. > > Mac > | 22072|22000|2010-01-13 17:04:50|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I once used a sprayer that a client rented . I told him to get the biggest one they had, and never mention that it was being used on a boat. With "Boat" they think "Epoxy" and , worried it will come back frozen with epoxy, won't rent it to you. Tell them that you are painting your barn with oil based paint. This one was so huge that it sprayed a four foot wide swath, and it took only 15 minutes to put a coat on the entire outside, or the inside of a 36. I had to run with it to avoid runs in the paint . It was well worth the cost,it saved the client money. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Also if you get a professional sprayer the painting part will go fast - you'll still have to wait about 8 hours or so between all 6-8 coats > | 22073|22050|2010-01-13 17:08:30|brentswain38|Re: Alluminium interiors|Pacifico , por favor, la mejor de la mejor. Gracias. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I intended to finish the interior in wood. Teak plywood for most of it. > > Then as the tanks and sole and battery compartments went in in aluminum I just decided to continue with metal. There will be a wood facing on alot of the visible metal with paint between. > > I also thought welded bulkheads and sole etc etc would be stronger than tabbed in plywood. Aluminum also doesn't rot. > > I have designed huge ventilation into this boat with solar 24/7 4" vents fore and aft, 14 opening ports, hatch, dutch door. The whole interior is sprayed with 1.5" foam. > > There is a Webasco diesel furnace to keep her dry in the winter. > > Roland brought up a good point to me early in this build that my metal interior would sweat so I've done everything I can to prevent that. > > I don't have my notes with me re the boat. I can't remember all of the scantlings for the metal sizes. I will let u know. > > I'm writing this on the beach in Mexico. Should I order u guys a Corona or a Pacifico? > > When u take a beer out of the ice here it sweats condensation. Usually it's me sweating at work or on the boat so this is a nice change. > > Now I have to decide should I have a lime in this beer or not? > > Did I mention the ladies here? Some have nice lines. Some are top heavy which is ok. A couple have wineglass transoms. Some of the bikinis are under canvassed. > > The waves are loud today. There's about a 10 knot breeze. > > > > > > > > > I haven't read all of the messages here re this subject which I will do now. > > > > > > You can build a boat quickly if u are not working, have all materials on hand, no wife, no kids, unlimited funds, don't look for deals, live where the weather is perfect, ............. > > > > > > | 22074|22000|2010-01-13 17:15:53|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Origami boats don't need fillers, even for a "Yachtie " finish. A rough paint job can be sanded smooth any time after getting her cruising , if one is so motivated. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > > There is a vast difference between yacht glossy finishes and usable > workboat level finishes. > It could be they aimed for a "yacht" finish. > > This could involve say 200 kg of filler, 4-6 filler sessions, and maybe > 500 hours of fairing work. > + 50 hours masking. > > > > > > > 35000 that's nuts! that's more than my whole boat paint included what > > do they think they're trying to pull? > > > > > I had a quote to paint the boat of $35,000. > > > > > > We did it for a fifth of that with high tech paint and lots of sweat. > > > | 22075|22000|2010-01-13 18:02:59|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Thanks, theboilerflue. You are absolutely right - I can count just material surface from BS40 material list. Hull - 728 sq.ft Keel(single) - 104 sq.ft Deck - 104 sq.ft Total: 936 sq.ft So, painted surface would be (+ 10-15%) -> ~ 1100 sq.ft for painting outside of the boat, plus the same for inside. Which includes ~ 850 sq.ft. for hull outside painting (special type of paint?). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > you might as well paint it all at the same time here's the surface area calculations I used when buying my paint: 36x8x6(2 hullsides and deck both sides) since the hull plates to begin with are 36x8 I just asume abolute the same for the deck and cabin so 1728 lets say 1800 or 2000 square feet for a 40 footer it'd be more around 2300 or 2500 > > > > BS36 - 650-700 sq.ft > > > > BS40 - 950-1000 sq.ft > > > > Now I can call to painting services and get estimates. > | 22076|22000|2010-01-13 20:54:07|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|You guys need to visit the Rhino newsgroup and ask about the guy doing animal sculpture from sheetmetal. He models it in Rhino, has it CNC cut and tig welds it together. Picture how hard it would be to weld up a 17 foot tall realistic looking Giraffe from 16 gauge sheet if it didn't fit PERFECTLY! A boat is trivial compared to what this guy does. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "wild_explorer" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? I really do not see why exactly identical hull's patterns, pulled with the same sequence would be different. If 2 halves aligned exactly, it should give proper beam ratio throughout the hull when pulled to a proper beam in 3 points. I believe, deck plates are cut from the plans anyway. Rudder, keels, skeg could be pre-cut too. Cabin, wheel house plates could be cut over-sized and trimmed (but I am not sure if it is really necessary). Does anybody know, if it is possible to use ALL pre-cut parts? Or some require custom fitting? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > I've got no experience pulling a hull together, but I seems to me, after > several paper models, that there is a fairly good chance that CNC hull > parts are not going to fit up well on an origami design. Even with > perfect mates for the two sides the outcome of stitching the sides > together might be different if crew A put more bracing from the ground to > the bulwarks and crew B let most of the weight be distributed through the > center line. The difference would be in the angle formed between two > plates at the chines resulting in slightly different beams. Maybe you > could correct that by just pulling or pushing the sides out the mate with > the deck, but that might make up for the work you were trying to save. | 22077|22051|2010-01-13 21:00:37|Gary H. Lucas|Re: organization|I've been carrying this phone number in my pocket for about 10 years now. A really interesting East Coast scrapyard. There is one in Southern, NJ and one in Delaware along Interstate 95. I've been to the Jersey one once. Stacks of aluminum plate, steel plate, rooms filled with short pieces of all kinds of metal shapes. Racks filled with angle, Tees, Tubing, Rounds, you name it. The name is Fazzio 856-881-3186 Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "sitefix" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 8:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] organization OK, The post about the plasma table being set up to cut everything but the hulls caught my eye. A couple thoughts crossed my mind. ***1-ONE- first*** a) well, this sorta takes away from the BB philosophy and approach. which I think sums up to keep the cost down to a manageable level that most normal "dreamers" can deal with as well as keeping the building techniques realistic to the same type folks as well. b) this isn't a religious site, and maybe having some options here and there might be nice for those that can afford them. My skills with a torch are ok. Nothing great. I just got a new tip, and am going to go get some 3/16 to "play" with. I figure some 6" X 8' band and will cut many 2.5" X 6" pieces to make some coupons to weld with. Yeh, I am old school and plan to do some different positions and joint types. 3/32 as well as 1/8 rod, and try some different rod, 6010-11-13 and 7014-18. Yeh, I got DC as well as AC. I really enjoy welding enough that when I don't run a good looking bead I am not happy. I used to erect and modify steel buildings, so I have welded a little bit, but no formal training. Anyways, back to noticing a few recent post. I would like to know where the cnc table is?? And what the cost factors would be. Personally, if the cost is $1500.00 more than a straight drop, then I would rather put the money into a plasma rig. All I need is a compressor and filters and I have something left over to barter with after the project. If the difference is only a couple hundred, then, wow, who could resist???? ***2-TWO***, My second notice was that "wildE" mentioned his location of wheeled and primed steel in 40' delivered. OK, it took me many calls just to find bare 8'X40' lengths here on the east coast. It would have to come out of detroit, ship piggy back on another load to philly then dropped to me 3 hrs away. So, what's the chance of organizing a list of suppliers????? Steel companies that folks have been successful with. Their location and numbers with a current dated price per pound prior to travel??? This gives someone something to start with. Maybe a file folder to be updated regularly?? ***3-Thirdly*** OK- i am in the pre-stage, but am active on practical projects right now. I am thinking that I would really like to hear from some that have completed or at least are ahead of me and review a list of: Woulda couldas shouldas. Things that they would do different if they would do it again. I know how easy it is to get tunnel vision on a big project. Especially when things are going well and moving along quickly. How about posting some warnings, easy things to miss, or get out of sequence. D@anm, I guess I am just to used to a procedural checklist. Brent's list of common mistakes are great. I have printed this out and started a project folder. It will be kept in front. Maybe some other posters have some insight into their own overcomings of certain struggles in the projects??? ***4-fourthly*** Inorganic zinc weldthrough spray on??? I gotta check this out. Anyone else use this??? Any pros and cons with it?? ***5-fifthly*** What was the hardest thing to do / weld / fit etc on your build out??? I am thinking that I should start practicing on that. I am heading to the scrapyard today, I'm gonna see what they have for SS and other such when I pick up my 3/16 ribbon. Ok, I really did not start this to be this long. Just sorta happened. I do look forward to your insights. Mac | 22078|22052|2010-01-13 21:03:09|Gary H. Lucas|Re: dink / tender|Look for my fairly extensive posts on aluminum welding. Even thin aluminum welded with mig needs to be spray welded, not short arced. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dink / tender Mac Yes you want to use marine grade aluminum for any submerged saltwater applactions like the hull. If you want to only use it in fresh water then you can get 5052 grade aluminum but it is a softer material than the 5086 marine grade. You would weld ether with 5056 aluminum wire. If you have never welded before I would recomend you get someone to teach you how to weld the aluminum,and the steel if you are going to build your own boat. Your life will depend on it. Aaron --- On Wed, 1/13/10, sitefix wrote: From: sitefix Subject: [origamiboats] dink / tender To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 13, 2010, 5:53 AM my last post went on a bit. my apoligies. I am looking at Brent's book on the page with his dinghy outline and paragraph.. I have downloaded the 4 files on this site showing his dink made of aluminum in the same manner as the other boats. Ok, where do i start. I get some aluminum. Does it really need to be a marine grade?? I am gonna see what the scrap yard has in 4 x 8 sheets 1/8". Any series to stay away from?? How about a list of acceptable in preferable order Do I blow up and grid the page that has the little outline of the dink?? Then try to loft from that?? I would like to try this project. I know it's aluminum and I plan to use steel on the main hull, but I think I have access to a spool gun that I can run off my welder, so again. Book in hand, where do I start. Thanks for any good points. mac [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22079|22051|2010-01-13 21:20:44|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: organization|Fazzio's is a fantastic place. There is also Fazzio Brothers not far away that has metal odds & ends along with all kinds of surplus and an extensive old-style hardware store. Plan on spending more than an hour there wandering through their interconnected warehouses (don't forget upstairs in one or more of the warehouses also). R/Jay Resepectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 9:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] organization I've been carrying this phone number in my pocket for about 10 years now. A really interesting East Coast scrapyard. There is one in Southern, NJ and one in Delaware along Interstate 95. I've been to the Jersey one once. Stacks of aluminum plate, steel plate, rooms filled with short pieces of all kinds of metal shapes. Racks filled with angle, Tees, Tubing, Rounds, you name it. The name is Fazzio 856-881-3186 Gary H. Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22080|22052|2010-01-13 22:06:06|sitefix|extensive aluminum welding post|Ok, I have been looking for your post. I was wondering if they might be grouped together or under a special title? Maybe the core of these would be good to put into a "files" folder?? I don't have spray access now. I could only find 5052 structural at the scrap yard today. I paid too much for some 3/16 X 6" X 20' today to make some coupons. 10 pounds each of 6010-11-13 all 1/8 and a 3/32 6013 to play with on 1/8 ribbon. I got a s22p12 mig case with gun. Not sure what size collets yet but will get into it tomorrow. With all the stick and ribbon, I will be busy for a few days. Gee, spray only on the aluminum. Thanks for the heads up. I did get some 308l-16 to make a mess with too. One thing at a time. I just copied the "things to do list" in the files section, so when I am happy with my welds, I guess I will be starting. Ok, thanks again. mac --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Look for my fairly extensive posts on aluminum welding. Even thin aluminum > welded with mig needs to be spray welded, not short arced. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Williams" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 12:15 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dink / tender > > | 22081|22051|2010-01-14 00:34:53|theboilerflue|Re: organization|> So, what's the chance of organizing a list of suppliers????? > Steel companies that folks have been successful with. Their location and numbers with a current dated price per pound prior to travel??? I think that is a great idea, maybe not even just steel suppliers but other sources for odd ball parts like rigging alternatives and such. Also like the more screw ups idea. > ***5-fifthly*** > What was the hardest thing to do / weld / fit etc on your build out??? > I am thinking that I should start practicing on that. > I am heading to the scrapyard today, I'm gonna see what they have for SS and other such when I pick up my 3/16 ribbon welding the long seam on the bottom of the boat with sparks landing on you -get a leather jacket, and start going to the gym so your prepared to hold the 7" grinder up there for two days.| 22082|22050|2010-01-14 06:49:37|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Alluminium interiors|Thanks Micke, please let me know about the thickness of the alluminium you used for the forniture. I mean what is the minimum thick in order: it doesen't bend, it is structurally strong enough, and for saveing weight and money. I haven't understood if you paint the inside of every single peace of forniture, my idea would be to paint them just with an antisweating paint. Micke if you can put some more pictures on the photo-section of the origami group in order to see better what you are doing, that would be great. In alternative I can give you my e-mail address. Have a nice beer, anyway. alfredo > I intended to finish the interior in wood. Teak plywood for most of it. > > Then as the tanks and sole and battery compartments went in in aluminum I just decided to continue with metal. There will be a wood facing on alot of the visible metal with paint between. > > I also thought welded bulkheads and sole etc etc would be stronger than tabbed in plywood. Aluminum also doesn't rot. > > I have designed huge ventilation into this boat with solar 24/7 4" vents fore and aft, 14 opening ports, hatch, dutch door. The whole interior is sprayed with 1.5" foam. > > There is a Webasco diesel furnace to keep her dry in the winter. > > Roland brought up a good point to me early in this build that my metal interior would sweat so I've done everything I can to prevent that. > > I don't have my notes with me re the boat. I can't remember all of the scantlings for the metal sizes. I will let u know. > > I'm writing this on the beach in Mexico. Should I order u guys a Corona or a Pacifico? > > When u take a beer out of the ice here it sweats condensation. Usually it's me sweating at work or on the boat so this is a nice change. > > Now I have to decide should I have a lime in this beer or not? > > Did I mention the ladies here? Some have nice lines. Some are top heavy which is ok. A couple have wineglass transoms. Some of the bikinis are under canvassed. > > The waves are loud today. There's about a 10 knot breeze. > > > > > > > > > I haven't read all of the messages here re this subject which I will do now. > > > > > > You can build a boat quickly if u are not working, have all materials on hand, no wife, no kids, unlimited funds, don't look for deals, live where the weather is perfect, ............. > > > > > > > > | 22083|22050|2010-01-14 07:15:58|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Alluminium interiors|Yes, you are right Brent. I'm just at the stage of planning things. But, my idea is to drow all the peace of forniture on the computer (included holes, apertures and evrything you can do at the computer), than put evrything on an alluminium sheet with minimal scrap material lost,and make cut evrything by CNC sistem. I know it's an expense but: it should be very quick and I can build the forniture (very simple interiors of course) before building the boat. I remember the interiors of the 31' you told me to have a look. The black one anchored outside with the black canoa. Remember? Something very simple like that, open space. Sweating problem. Antisweating inside (it is like a paint), very thin wood outside (less than 1 mm). The real matter to me (more than money) is a quick construction right to go. It is just an idea so far. My plan is also to sail in very warm conditions and places anyway, I hate cold weather. It makes evything too difficult to me. Hull made of steel, of course. alf > Each aluminium surface connected to the hull will act as a cooling fin and have major condensation problems. It will make for a very cold interior on cold frosty nights. I have spent about $50 on my interior, as plywood for scrounging is everywhere. This is definitely not the case with aluminium. I'd wait to see how it works out before making any decisions in that direction. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > > > Alluminium interiors. That's sound to me really interesting. > > > > Micke, I would like to know why have you chosen to do like that. > > What is the thikness of the alluminium you have used and how have you finished it. Have you calcolate the extimate weight of the interiors compare to playwood? > > If we can cut the hull with CNC sistem, we can do the same with alluminium interiors (easy). Steel hull and alluminium interiors, very quick. > > Thanks > > Alfredo (Italy) > > > > > > > > > > > I just painted my aluminum BS 36. It took me a week of prep cleaning to bright. Then wiped by hand with solvent cleaner until the rags came up clean. Then wiped with water. My knees will never be the same. > > > > > > We then sprayed 2 coats of high build 2 part, then 2 coats of 2 part color then 2 coats of 2 part clear clear. > > > > > > The masking took 2 of us a complete day. The primer took a day for 2 coats. The same for the color and clear. We sprayed wet on wet. > > > > > > We did the house and cabin and decks first with 8 coats in the high traffic areas and 6 in the low. My cockpit floor is probably an 1/8" thick. > > > > > > I was exhausted after this job was done. > > > > > > I had a quote to paint the boat of $35,000. > > > > > > We did it for a fifth of that with high tech paint and lots of sweat. > > > > > > I haven't read all of the messages here re this subject which I will do now. > > > > > > You can build a boat quickly if u are not working, have all materials on hand, no wife, no kids, unlimited funds, don't look for deals, live where the weather is perfect, ............. > > > > > > > > | 22084|22084|2010-01-14 08:09:57|ANDREW AIREY|Jet Drive|If you are wanting to minimise propellor drag how about modifying a bow thruster.These are available for fitting to narrow boats and barges in the UK - Vetus do a range,either electric or hydraulic powered - or you could try a barge breaker/shipyard in Europe for a second hand one.These might be a bit large for your purposes though cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 22085|22056|2010-01-14 14:40:12|qzoozq|Re: Jetdrive?|Thank you very much for your fast and competent answers. It´s more or less what I figured and so, by the need of so many hps I guess the idea died just then and there. It´s probably cleverer to spend the money on a folding prop anyway. KAI| 22086|22050|2010-01-14 16:24:40|brentswain38|Re: Alluminium interiors|if you minimize the contact between the aluminiunm interior and the hull, you can minimize the problem, as heat can only escape thru the contact points, and the interior is non structural anyway. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > Yes, you are right Brent. I'm just at the stage of planning things. > But, my idea is to drow all the peace of forniture on the computer (included holes, apertures and evrything you can do at the computer), than put evrything on an alluminium sheet with minimal scrap material lost,and make cut evrything by CNC sistem. I know it's an expense but: > it should be very quick and I can build the forniture (very simple interiors of course) before building the boat. > I remember the interiors of the 31' you told me to have a look. > The black one anchored outside with the black canoa. Remember? > Something very simple like that, open space. > Sweating problem. > Antisweating inside (it is like a paint), very thin wood outside (less than 1 mm). > The real matter to me (more than money) is a quick construction right to go. > It is just an idea so far. > My plan is also to sail in very warm conditions and places anyway, I hate cold weather. It makes evything too difficult to me. > Hull made of steel, of course. > alf > > > > > > > Each aluminium surface connected to the hull will act as a cooling fin and have major condensation problems. It will make for a very cold interior on cold frosty nights. I have spent about $50 on my interior, as plywood for scrounging is everywhere. This is definitely not the case with aluminium. I'd wait to see how it works out before making any decisions in that direction. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > Alluminium interiors. That's sound to me really interesting. > > > > > > Micke, I would like to know why have you chosen to do like that. > > > What is the thikness of the alluminium you have used and how have you finished it. Have you calcolate the extimate weight of the interiors compare to playwood? > > > If we can cut the hull with CNC sistem, we can do the same with alluminium interiors (easy). Steel hull and alluminium interiors, very quick. > > > Thanks > > > Alfredo (Italy) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just painted my aluminum BS 36. It took me a week of prep cleaning to bright. Then wiped by hand with solvent cleaner until the rags came up clean. Then wiped with water. My knees will never be the same. > > > > > > > > We then sprayed 2 coats of high build 2 part, then 2 coats of 2 part color then 2 coats of 2 part clear clear. > > > > > > > > The masking took 2 of us a complete day. The primer took a day for 2 coats. The same for the color and clear. We sprayed wet on wet. > > > > > > > > We did the house and cabin and decks first with 8 coats in the high traffic areas and 6 in the low. My cockpit floor is probably an 1/8" thick. > > > > > > > > I was exhausted after this job was done. > > > > > > > > I had a quote to paint the boat of $35,000. > > > > > > > > We did it for a fifth of that with high tech paint and lots of sweat. > > > > > > > > I haven't read all of the messages here re this subject which I will do now. > > > > > > > > You can build a boat quickly if u are not working, have all materials on hand, no wife, no kids, unlimited funds, don't look for deals, live where the weather is perfect, ............. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22087|22056|2010-01-14 16:33:38|David Frantz|Re: Jetdrive?|Have you considered a tunnel drive? This would give some protection to the prop if that is a concern. I'm thinking something like the old Pen Yan boats of the past. It is major hull surgery though. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jan 14, 2010, at 2:40 PM, qzoozq wrote: > Thank you very much for your fast and competent answers. It´s more o > r less what I figured and so, by the need of so many hps I guess the > idea died just then and there. It´s probably cleverer to spend the > money on a folding prop anyway. > > KAI > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22088|22088|2010-01-14 17:48:43|sailordude1999|CNC plasma cutting services|I have a great interest in metal boat building and all things welding and fabrication. I own a small metal fabrication shop and have recently added to our mix of tools a 4' x 10' plasma and routing machine. If I can be of assistance to anyone with a need for such services I would offer up what would likely be the most affordable pricing avialable anywhere. Still setting my machine with a better plasma so somewhat limited in thickness at this point. Email me erik.carlsen@... if you want more details. Located in downtown Philadelphia(USA). See my photo gallery for details of some my equipment and other work. PhiladelphiaMachineWorks.com must type in your browser bar. Good luck builders. Erik| 22089|22089|2010-01-14 18:30:47|sitefix|nagging questions|Ok, I have been reviewing quite abit. I have two areas right now that keep bothering me. I think becouse of the many different options available. Perhaps, folks would throw in their 2 cents on powering the boat. 1)Best bang for buck diesel- maybe some alternative and why. I read Brent's book about the tranny situation. How small is too smal and how big is too big. If I come across a slow rpm lugger, what is practical?? What should I start looking for? 2)Mast options. Steel / aluminum pros and cons, types of aluminum and wall thickness. I am all about the galvanized stays. But what about different finds at the scrapyard. What are possibilities limeted to?? There are tons of sched 40 alum 6-8 water pipe around here. I am thinking way to thin skined. But what are my hi pri lookout items that I need to keep the antennas tuned for when scrounging. OK, thanks for everyone's input into my other post. Didn't get any welding done today, had to fix a riding mower and split wood. Now I gotta clean the garage from the mess of the log splitter and the mower work. I did get a mess of rod and some steel to work on. Hope no one would fuss at me for having a like new mig case and gun under my workbench for 5 days now and never used it yet. Came with the welder. I am gonna make myself burn some rod for a while before I play with it. I don't have pulse so I guess I am gonna cool my heels on the aluminum for a while as the pulse add on is right spendy. Ok, cheers to all the innocents and non malcontents. mac| 22090|22090|2010-01-14 19:34:49|Gary H. Lucas|Old Aluminum welding post 1|I found these posts in my sent folder Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > Doug, > One other thing regarding Mig welding of aluminum. Many people set the > Mig welders up wrong because they think it is similar to steel welding. > Aluminum should be welded using the spray arc process when welding > aluminum. You get much better penetration, use less wire, get a smoother > bead, a cleaner weld, and it is twice as fast. > > To get spray arc you need to turn the voltage up, WAY up from steel > welding. As you are doing that you also need to increase the wire feed > speed (current) so the wire doesn't burn back into the torch. How do you > know you are using spray arc? Look at the end of the wire after welding. > If it has a sharp point on the end you were spray welding. If has a ball > on the end you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Look at the > weld. If it has sharp closely spaced ripples you were short arc welding, > turn the voltage up. Spray arc makes nice smooth wavy weld beads. Look > at the weld again, it is sooty looking and dark you were short arc > welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc welds are quite often almost > shiny. Listen to the welder, if it sounds like frying eggs you are short > arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc sounds exactly like spray > painting with a spray gun. Watch the spatter hitting the floor. If you > have spatter hitting the floor you are short arc welding, turn the voltage > up. Spray makes almost zero spatter, no wire is wasted. Look at the arc, > if the wire appears to be pulsating you are short arc welding, turn the > voltage up. Spray arc welding has an arc that fans out from the sharp tip > of the wire. When you are really in the groove you feel like you are > spraying the metal onto the weld, which you are. It's a wonderful thing > when you finally get the voltage and current right and you are just flying > down the weld seam just laying down this beautifully smooth weld. > > A greenhouse I was doing work for had this guy come in to weld up > thousands of aluminum benches from 1/16" thick extrusions. The guy was > getting paid piece work and he was fast. I told the owner that the guy > had his welder set up wrong. He asked the guy to let me adjust his > welder. He was really pissed because I wasted almost an hour getting it > right. I showed the owner that the welds were much better, very much > stronger, and he had lots of broken welds in the past. I came back a > couple of days later and the welds looked very good. I asked the owner if > the guy was still mad at me. He said "No, once he realized he was going > twice as fast and getting paid piece work he kept his mouth shut!" > | 22091|22091|2010-01-14 19:35:21|Gary H. Lucas|Aluminum welding 3|----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminium welding > Eduardo, > Polarity is the same for all Mig welding steel or aluminum. This would be > positive electrode or what is called 'Reverse' polarity from what you > would stick weld with. The reason is that the current flows from positive > to negative, and you want the heat going into the puddle, not into the > relatively tiny welding wire. With stick you need the current flowing > into the much larger rod to melt it completely. > > You want to use straight Argon for aluminum. If you get crater cracking > at the finish of a weld you should suspect you have a leaky gas hose or > contaminated Argon. I got a bottle of argon contaminated with nitrogen > once. I couldn't make a good weld no how after changing the bottle. I > put the old bottle back on that had a tiny bit left and the problems went > away. The gas supplier admitted to me that his supplier accidentally mixed > liquid argon with liquid nitrogen. Oops! A hundred grand or so of > worthless gas! > > I didn't specify the voltage because so often machines don't have a volt > meter, and I don't really know an exact number. So I have always just > kept turning it up until all the indicators I mentioned show up. This > isn't a subtle thing you will miss when it goes from short arc to spray > arc, it happens quite suddenly. > > Speed is a similar issue, although speed is directly proportional to > current. If you double the speed you double the current. Makes sense, it > takes X amount of energy to vaporize Y amount of wire. Double Y and you > need to double X. As you keep raising the voltage the wire stickout will > get shorter and shorter, so you need to raise the wire speed so it doesn't > burn back into the tip. The wire feed speed is constant. The stick out > of the wire adjusts automatically when you are using a constant voltage > machine. This happens because the resistance of the arc determines how > much current it can carry, and how fast the wire burns. When the arc is > short, the current goes up and the wires burns back. As the wire gets > shorter the arc gets longer, increasing the resistance, and lowering the > current so the wire burns slower and extends out further. > > I have welded with constant current stick machines using a Miller gun with > a control that has a switch for use with constant current machines. these > controls have what looks like an extra small ground clamp that you place > nearer the weld. What is does is measure the arc voltage and adjust the > speed of the wire feed motor to match the current. This setup works but > has a few gotchas. It has a tendency to give a cold start because the > current can't rise real high at start. I frequently preheated with a gas > torch if starting weld quality was important. It is much more sensitive > to your technique too. A constant voltage machine is much preferred. > > About the worst thing you can have is a cheap Mig welding machine. Cheap > machines will always make a cold start because the transformer is sized to > provide only the machines rated welding current, not the 1000 amps or so > that will instantly vaporize a cold wire on start. So you get wire > stubbing, and poor quality at the start of every weld. Buy a good old > industrial machine, sell it for what you paid when you are done. > > In case you are wondering about how I know about this stuff above, it's > not because I'm a welder. I was an industrial electrician first. During > my second career in the greenhouse industry I also did welding machine > repairs for my partner who owned an industrial gas supply. I would test > weld with all kinds of machines to figure out what repairs they might > need. > > Wire size is very important for both steel and aluminum welding. Wire > size determines the current you will be welding with. Unfortunately Mig > machines will produce beautiful looking welds with a wire size that is too > small to produce adequate penetration. For instance 0.035" wire is very > popular for steel welding. I used to produce machine frames from 1/16" > wall round and rectangular steel tubes and 1/8" thick hot rolled strap and > angle. We got beautiful welds with 0.035" wire. We also had so many weld > failures after galvanizing that we had to find another way. The only > thing that solved the problem consistently was to increase the wire size > to 0.045". That made welding somewhat difficult on such thin material. > You had to put the heat in the right place and a 1" long weld was done > almost before you had time to think about what you were doing. The weld > failures stopped though, and our welding costs went down quite a lot too. > Don't be fooled into thinking that your bead has great strength because it > is pretty, if the wire was too small you will very surprised at how little > penetration you will get. > > On aluminum it is very important that you use the right alloy for the base > metal. The right alloy is usually NOT the same alloy as the base metal! > The weld bead and the base metal are mixing at the fusion zone, creating a > third alloy. So you typically find the 6061 and 6063 structural alloys > being welded with 4043 wire. The 6000 series alloys lose strength when > welded because they are heat treated. The welding heat anneals the area > near the weld. 5000 series alloys typically used for marine plate are not > heat treated so they lose very little strength when welded. > > You are going to want to use probably 5/64 wire on 1/4" plate for good > penetration. If your machine won't do a good start on that size wire it > is too small for the task. Going to smaller wire could work, but I would > do extensive testing of samples before trusting it. Welding small samples > can be VERY misleading on aluminum. It heats so quickly that a small > sample will be at five hundred degrees in seconds, and will weld very > well. The same material in a 4 x 8 sheet and you may not even have the > power to get it hot enough to burn your hand! > > Hope this helps. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "drddias" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:57 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] aluminium welding > > > Thanks Gary Lucas for your lesson in the subject > but please tell me the other details: > where to connect the positive/negative > what wire > what gaz > what volts (turn it up!!) > what speed > for marine plate say 1/4" > regards > eduardo > > | 22092|22092|2010-01-14 19:35:31|Gary H. Lucas|Aluminum welding 2|----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > Terry, > In all honesty most of this came from a little Miller booklet given to me > by a very good welder about 33 years ago. I lost it about 25 years ago > and searched for copies everywhere to no avail. It was great because it > had pictures of everything I described that made it perfectly clear. > > You are right, I did forget to mention about how spray arc transfers MUCH > more energy to the weld puddle than short arc, which is very important. > To Tig weld aluminum thicker that 1/8" requires a welding machine of > greater than 200 amps. When I learned how to weld with the old 250 amp > Lincoln I had an air cooled torch. I had to wear two gloves to hold it > because it got so hot, and would trip the overheat switch in the welder > all the time. With Mig and spray arc the heat transfer is so efficient > you have a weld bead before the heat has been drawn away by the high > conductivity of the base metal. So a 200 amp Mig welder is quite useful > on aluminum while for Tig I wouldn't recommend anything smaller than 400 > amp. > > I did a lot of aluminum welding with the old 250 amp Lincoln. I used to > repair street light poles smashed into pieces by cars. On the heavy stuff > I'd set it on top of a plumbers propane fired lead pot. When it reached > the temperature that solder would melt right away when touching the > surface I'd put on my gloves and start welding. I fixed a set of > electricians 4" pipe bending dies that were 3" thick this way. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "T & D Cain" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:50 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > > >> Gary Lucas, your post below would have to be one of the best general >> guides >> I have seen to MIG with aluminium, especially for those who have mastered >> the art in all-position short-arc steel >> >> Your way of describing the necessary extra heat transfer avoids almost >> all >> of the difficulties in many other brief tutorials. In particular you show >> the novice how to quickly adapt to thin section welds. >> >> Well written. >> >> Terry >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] >> On >> Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas >> Sent: Thursday, 14 June 2007 9:35 AM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks >> >> >> >> Doug, >> One other thing regarding Mig welding of aluminum. Many people set the >> Mig >> welders up wrong because they think it is similar to steel welding. >> Aluminum should be welded using the spray arc process when welding >> aluminum. >> >> You get much better penetration, use less wire, get a smoother bead, a >> cleaner weld, and it is twice as fast. >> >> To get spray arc you need to turn the voltage up, WAY up from steel >> welding. >> >> As you are doing that you also need to increase the wire feed speed >> (current) so the wire doesn't burn back into the torch. How do you know >> you >> are using spray arc? Look at the end of the wire after welding. If it has >> a sharp point on the end you were spray welding. If has a ball on the end >> you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Look at the weld. If it >> has sharp closely spaced ripples you were short arc welding, turn the >> voltage up. Spray arc makes nice smooth wavy weld beads. Look at the weld >> again, it is sooty looking and dark you were short arc welding, turn the >> voltage up. Spray arc welds are quite often almost shiny. Listen to the >> welder, if it sounds like frying eggs you are short arc welding, turn the >> voltage up. Spray arc sounds exactly like spray painting with a spray >> gun. >> Watch the spatter hitting the floor. If you have spatter hitting the >> floor >> you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray makes almost zero >> spatter, no wire is wasted. Look at the arc, if the wire appears to be >> pulsating you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc >> welding >> has an arc that fans out from the sharp tip of the wire. When you are >> really in the groove you feel like you are spraying the metal onto the >> weld, >> >> which you are. It's a wonderful thing when you finally get the voltage >> and >> current right and you are just flying down the weld seam just laying down >> this beautifully smooth weld. >> >> A greenhouse I was doing work for had this guy come in to weld up >> thousands >> of aluminum benches from 1/16" thick extrusions. The guy was getting paid >> piece work and he was fast. I told the owner that the guy had his welder >> set up wrong. He asked the guy to let me adjust his welder. He was really >> pissed because I wasted almost an hour getting it right. I showed the >> owner >> that the welds were much better, very much stronger, and he had lots of >> broken welds in the past. I came back a couple of days later and the >> welds >> looked very good. I asked the owner if the guy was still mad at me. He >> said "No, once he realized he was going twice as fast and getting paid >> piece >> >> work he kept his mouth shut!" >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: com> >> To: >> yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:57 AM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you Gary >>> >>> I am certainly not pro with my MIG.? If you have an opinion let me know >>> if >> >>> you think TIG would be better for thin material compared to one of >>> Millers >> >>> Pulse MIG machines. >>> >>> Thanks again >>> Doug J >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free >>> from AOL at AOL.com. >>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > | 22093|22056|2010-01-14 20:03:28|markh|Re: Jetdrive?|Looked up Pen Yan and found drawings and reference to it at the following. Very interesting, thanks. http://www.pennyanbbs.org/index.php?showtopic=4460 Have you considered a tunnel drive? This would give some protection to the prop if that is a concern. I'm thinking something like the old Pen Yan boats of the past. It is major hull surgery though. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jan 14, 2010, at 2:40 PM, qzoozq wrote: > Thank you very much for your fast and competent answers. It´s more o > r less what I figured and so, by the need of so many hps I guess the > idea died just then and there. It´s probably cleverer to spend the > money on a folding prop anyway. > > KAI > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22094|22091|2010-01-14 20:40:08|Gord Schnell|Re: Aluminum welding 3|I'd like to make one correction and here's hoping no one is offended: In electric current flow, it is the electrons that are "torn" from the molecule and form the current. Electrons are negatively charged. Therefore, the current is made up of electrons (-) and they are attracted to the (+) source. Gord On 14-Jan-10, at 4:35 PM, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:47 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminium welding > > > Eduardo, > > Polarity is the same for all Mig welding steel or aluminum. This > would be > > positive electrode or what is called 'Reverse' polarity from what > you > > would stick weld with. The reason is that the current flows from > positive > > to negative, and you want the heat going into the puddle, not into > the > > relatively tiny welding wire. With stick you need the current > flowing > > into the much larger rod to melt it completely. > > > > You want to use straight Argon for aluminum. If you get crater > cracking > > at the finish of a weld you should suspect you have a leaky gas > hose or > > contaminated Argon. I got a bottle of argon contaminated with > nitrogen > > once. I couldn't make a good weld no how after changing the > bottle. I > > put the old bottle back on that had a tiny bit left and the > problems went > > away. The gas supplier admitted to me that his supplier > accidentally mixed > > liquid argon with liquid nitrogen. Oops! A hundred grand or so of > > worthless gas! > > > > I didn't specify the voltage because so often machines don't have > a volt > > meter, and I don't really know an exact number. So I have always > just > > kept turning it up until all the indicators I mentioned show up. > This > > isn't a subtle thing you will miss when it goes from short arc to > spray > > arc, it happens quite suddenly. > > > > Speed is a similar issue, although speed is directly proportional to > > current. If you double the speed you double the current. Makes > sense, it > > takes X amount of energy to vaporize Y amount of wire. Double Y > and you > > need to double X. As you keep raising the voltage the wire > stickout will > > get shorter and shorter, so you need to raise the wire speed so it > doesn't > > burn back into the tip. The wire feed speed is constant. The stick > out > > of the wire adjusts automatically when you are using a constant > voltage > > machine. This happens because the resistance of the arc determines > how > > much current it can carry, and how fast the wire burns. When the > arc is > > short, the current goes up and the wires burns back. As the wire > gets > > shorter the arc gets longer, increasing the resistance, and > lowering the > > current so the wire burns slower and extends out further. > > > > I have welded with constant current stick machines using a Miller > gun with > > a control that has a switch for use with constant current > machines. these > > controls have what looks like an extra small ground clamp that you > place > > nearer the weld. What is does is measure the arc voltage and > adjust the > > speed of the wire feed motor to match the current. This setup > works but > > has a few gotchas. It has a tendency to give a cold start because > the > > current can't rise real high at start. I frequently preheated with > a gas > > torch if starting weld quality was important. It is much more > sensitive > > to your technique too. A constant voltage machine is much preferred. > > > > About the worst thing you can have is a cheap Mig welding machine. > Cheap > > machines will always make a cold start because the transformer is > sized to > > provide only the machines rated welding current, not the 1000 amps > or so > > that will instantly vaporize a cold wire on start. So you get wire > > stubbing, and poor quality at the start of every weld. Buy a good > old > > industrial machine, sell it for what you paid when you are done. > > > > In case you are wondering about how I know about this stuff above, > it's > > not because I'm a welder. I was an industrial electrician first. > During > > my second career in the greenhouse industry I also did welding > machine > > repairs for my partner who owned an industrial gas supply. I would > test > > weld with all kinds of machines to figure out what repairs they > might > > need. > > > > Wire size is very important for both steel and aluminum welding. > Wire > > size determines the current you will be welding with. > Unfortunately Mig > > machines will produce beautiful looking welds with a wire size > that is too > > small to produce adequate penetration. For instance 0.035" wire is > very > > popular for steel welding. I used to produce machine frames from > 1/16" > > wall round and rectangular steel tubes and 1/8" thick hot rolled > strap and > > angle. We got beautiful welds with 0.035" wire. We also had so > many weld > > failures after galvanizing that we had to find another way. The only > > thing that solved the problem consistently was to increase the > wire size > > to 0.045". That made welding somewhat difficult on such thin > material. > > You had to put the heat in the right place and a 1" long weld was > done > > almost before you had time to think about what you were doing. The > weld > > failures stopped though, and our welding costs went down quite a > lot too. > > Don't be fooled into thinking that your bead has great strength > because it > > is pretty, if the wire was too small you will very surprised at > how little > > penetration you will get. > > > > On aluminum it is very important that you use the right alloy for > the base > > metal. The right alloy is usually NOT the same alloy as the base > metal! > > The weld bead and the base metal are mixing at the fusion zone, > creating a > > third alloy. So you typically find the 6061 and 6063 structural > alloys > > being welded with 4043 wire. The 6000 series alloys lose strength > when > > welded because they are heat treated. The welding heat anneals the > area > > near the weld. 5000 series alloys typically used for marine plate > are not > > heat treated so they lose very little strength when welded. > > > > You are going to want to use probably 5/64 wire on 1/4" plate for > good > > penetration. If your machine won't do a good start on that size > wire it > > is too small for the task. Going to smaller wire could work, but I > would > > do extensive testing of samples before trusting it. Welding small > samples > > can be VERY misleading on aluminum. It heats so quickly that a small > > sample will be at five hundred degrees in seconds, and will weld > very > > well. The same material in a 4 x 8 sheet and you may not even have > the > > power to get it hot enough to burn your hand! > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "drddias" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:57 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] aluminium welding > > > > > > Thanks Gary Lucas for your lesson in the subject > > but please tell me the other details: > > where to connect the positive/negative > > what wire > > what gaz > > what volts (turn it up!!) > > what speed > > for marine plate say 1/4" > > regards > > eduardo > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22095|22051|2010-01-14 20:45:52|James Pronk|Re: organization|Haidan You can use two hands to hold up the 7" grinder, I do once and a while!   James --- On Thu, 1/14/10, theboilerflue wrote: From: theboilerflue Subject: [origamiboats] Re: organization To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 12:34 AM   > So, what's the chance of organizing a list of suppliers??? ?? > Steel companies that folks have been successful with. Their location and numbers with a current dated price per pound prior to travel??? I think that is a great idea, maybe not even just steel suppliers but other sources for odd ball parts like rigging alternatives and such. Also like the more screw ups idea. > ***5-fifthly* ** > What was the hardest thing to do / weld / fit etc on your build out??? > I am thinking that I should start practicing on that. > I am heading to the scrapyard today, I'm gonna see what they have for SS and other such when I pick up my 3/16 ribbon welding the long seam on the bottom of the boat with sparks landing on you -get a leather jacket, and start going to the gym so your prepared to hold the 7" grinder up there for two days. __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22096|22056|2010-01-14 20:48:37|David Frantz|Re: Jetdrive?|Right now I'm having a hard time with the idea of building a dingy. I'm trying to figure out how to rearrainge my life to manage getting a vessel to travel in. Pennyan comes to mind because I grew up about an hour away from that town in upstate NY. Of course they made power boats which is a bit different than sail. The problem is of course the major surgery to a sailboats hull and the impact that might have on performance. Still it might be useful in shallow water craft. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jan 14, 2010, at 8:03 PM, markh wrote: > Looked up Pen Yan and found drawings and reference to it at the > following. Very interesting, thanks. http://www.pennyanbbs.org/index.php?showtopic=4460 > > > > Have you considered a tunnel drive? This would give some protection > to the prop if that is a concern. I'm thinking something like the old > Pen Yan boats of the past. It is major hull surgery though. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jan 14, 2010, at 2:40 PM, qzoozq wrote: > >> Thank you very much for your fast and competent answers. It´s more o >> r less what I figured and so, by the need of so many hps I guess the >> idea died just then and there. It´s probably cleverer to spend the >> money on a folding prop anyway. >> >> KAI >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >> ! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22097|22091|2010-01-14 21:47:09|Doug Jackson|Re: Aluminum welding 3|Yeah, but has anyone ever seen it happen? :) Gary: > You are going to want to use probably 5/64 wire on 1/4" plate for good > penetration. Kay and I will be doing nearly everything in 1/4" plate. Our rig is a Lincoln Invertec V300 powering a Cobramatic water cooled, push-pull feeder. We plan to do a couple of cycles of stitch, flip, back gouge, stitch for the hull plates. Would you still recommend 5/64? And can you suggest starting wire feed speed and volt/amp setting? And would you suggest CV GMAW mode? And what wire? Would Gas-Shielded Flux-Core, usually E71T-1 do best with pure CO2? Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Gord Schnell To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 7:40:04 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminum welding 3 I'd like to make one correction and here's hoping no one is offended: In electric current flow, it is the electrons that are "torn" from the molecule and form the current. Electrons are negatively charged. Therefore, the current is made up of electrons (-) and they are attracted to the (+) source. Gord On 14-Jan-10, at 4:35 PM, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:47 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminium welding > > > Eduardo, > > Polarity is the same for all Mig welding steel or aluminum. This > would be > > positive electrode or what is called 'Reverse' polarity from what > you > > would stick weld with. The reason is that the current flows from > positive > > to negative, and you want the heat going into the puddle, not into > the > > relatively tiny welding wire. With stick you need the current > flowing > > into the much larger rod to melt it completely. > > > > You want to use straight Argon for aluminum. If you get crater > cracking > > at the finish of a weld you should suspect you have a leaky gas > hose or > > contaminated Argon. I got a bottle of argon contaminated with > nitrogen > > once. I couldn't make a good weld no how after changing the > bottle. I > > put the old bottle back on that had a tiny bit left and the > problems went > > away. The gas supplier admitted to me that his supplier > accidentally mixed > > liquid argon with liquid nitrogen. Oops! A hundred grand or so of > > worthless gas! > > > > I didn't specify the voltage because so often machines don't have > a volt > > meter, and I don't really know an exact number. So I have always > just > > kept turning it up until all the indicators I mentioned show up. > This > > isn't a subtle thing you will miss when it goes from short arc to > spray > > arc, it happens quite suddenly. > > > > Speed is a similar issue, although speed is directly proportional to > > current. If you double the speed you double the current. Makes > sense, it > > takes X amount of energy to vaporize Y amount of wire. Double Y > and you > > need to double X. As you keep raising the voltage the wire > stickout will > > get shorter and shorter, so you need to raise the wire speed so it > doesn't > > burn back into the tip. The wire feed speed is constant. The stick > out > > of the wire adjusts automatically when you are using a constant > voltage > > machine. This happens because the resistance of the arc determines > how > > much current it can carry, and how fast the wire burns. When the > arc is > > short, the current goes up and the wires burns back. As the wire > gets > > shorter the arc gets longer, increasing the resistance, and > lowering the > > current so the wire burns slower and extends out further. > > > > I have welded with constant current stick machines using a Miller > gun with > > a control that has a switch for use with constant current > machines. these > > controls have what looks like an extra small ground clamp that you > place > > nearer the weld. What is does is measure the arc voltage and > adjust the > > speed of the wire feed motor to match the current. This setup > works but > > has a few gotchas. It has a tendency to give a cold start because > the > > current can't rise real high at start. I frequently preheated with > a gas > > torch if starting weld quality was important. It is much more > sensitive > > to your technique too. A constant voltage machine is much preferred. > > > > About the worst thing you can have is a cheap Mig welding machine. > Cheap > > machines will always make a cold start because the transformer is > sized to > > provide only the machines rated welding current, not the 1000 amps > or so > > that will instantly vaporize a cold wire on start. So you get wire > > stubbing, and poor quality at the start of every weld. Buy a good > old > > industrial machine, sell it for what you paid when you are done. > > > > In case you are wondering about how I know about this stuff above, > it's > > not because I'm a welder. I was an industrial electrician first. > During > > my second career in the greenhouse industry I also did welding > machine > > repairs for my partner who owned an industrial gas supply. I would > test > > weld with all kinds of machines to figure out what repairs they > might > > need. > > > > Wire size is very important for both steel and aluminum welding. > Wire > > size determines the current you will be welding with. > Unfortunately Mig > > machines will produce beautiful looking welds with a wire size > that is too > > small to produce adequate penetration. For instance 0.035" wire is > very > > popular for steel welding. I used to produce machine frames from > 1/16" > > wall round and rectangular steel tubes and 1/8" thick hot rolled > strap and > > angle. We got beautiful welds with 0.035" wire. We also had so > many weld > > failures after galvanizing that we had to find another way. The only > > thing that solved the problem consistently was to increase the > wire size > > to 0.045". That made welding somewhat difficult on such thin > material. > > You had to put the heat in the right place and a 1" long weld was > done > > almost before you had time to think about what you were doing. The > weld > > failures stopped though, and our welding costs went down quite a > lot too. > > Don't be fooled into thinking that your bead has great strength > because it > > is pretty, if the wire was too small you will very surprised at > how little > > penetration you will get. > > > > On aluminum it is very important that you use the right alloy for > the base > > metal. The right alloy is usually NOT the same alloy as the base > metal! > > The weld bead and the base metal are mixing at the fusion zone, > creating a > > third alloy. So you typically find the 6061 and 6063 structural > alloys > > being welded with 4043 wire. The 6000 series alloys lose strength > when > > welded because they are heat treated. The welding heat anneals the > area > > near the weld. 5000 series alloys typically used for marine plate > are not > > heat treated so they lose very little strength when welded. > > > > You are going to want to use probably 5/64 wire on 1/4" plate for > good > > penetration. If your machine won't do a good start on that size > wire it > > is too small for the task. Going to smaller wire could work, but I > would > > do extensive testing of samples before trusting it. Welding small > samples > > can be VERY misleading on aluminum. It heats so quickly that a small > > sample will be at five hundred degrees in seconds, and will weld > very > > well. The same material in a 4 x 8 sheet and you may not even have > the > > power to get it hot enough to burn your hand! > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "drddias" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:57 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] aluminium welding > > > > > > Thanks Gary Lucas for your lesson in the subject > > but please tell me the other details: > > where to connect the positive/negative > > what wire > > what gaz > > what volts (turn it up!!) > > what speed > > for marine plate say 1/4" > > regards > > eduardo > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 22098|22098|2010-01-14 22:56:26|inter4905|wood stove ball valve damper|Hi Brent, In your book you mention the use of a SS ball valve as an intake damper, can the plastic inside the valve be affected by the heat of the stove? Martin.| 22099|22098|2010-01-15 00:28:47|brentswain38|Re: wood stove ball valve damper|Pulp mill surplus ball dampers use teflon which is highly heat resistant so no problem with them. I'm not sure about the cheapies. Gate valves are all metal so no problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > In your book you mention the use of a SS ball valve as an intake damper, > can the plastic inside the valve be affected by the heat of the stove? > > Martin. > | 22100|22089|2010-01-15 00:35:10|brentswain38|Re: nagging questions|6 inch sch 40 has a 1/4 inch wall thickness which is plenty. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > Ok, I have been reviewing quite abit. > I have two areas right now that keep bothering me. > I think becouse of the many different options available. > > Perhaps, folks would throw in their 2 cents on powering the boat. > > 1)Best bang for buck diesel- maybe some alternative and why. I read Brent's book about the tranny situation. How small is too smal and how big is too big. If I come across a slow rpm lugger, what is practical?? What should I start looking for? > > 2)Mast options. Steel / aluminum pros and cons, types of aluminum and wall thickness. I am all about the galvanized stays. But what about different finds at the scrapyard. What are possibilities limeted to?? > There are tons of sched 40 alum 6-8 water pipe around here. I am thinking way to thin skined. But what are my hi pri lookout items that I need to keep the antennas tuned for when scrounging. > > OK, thanks for everyone's input into my other post. > Didn't get any welding done today, had to fix a riding mower and split wood. Now I gotta clean the garage from the mess of the log splitter and the mower work. I did get a mess of rod and some steel to work on. Hope no one would fuss at me for having a like new mig case and gun under my workbench for 5 days now and never used it yet. Came with the welder. > I am gonna make myself burn some rod for a while before I play with it. I don't have pulse so I guess I am gonna cool my heels on the aluminum for a while as the pulse add on is right spendy. > > Ok, cheers to all the innocents and non malcontents. > mac > | 22101|22000|2010-01-15 01:24:19|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Brent, what type of paint was used with that sprayer? Was it the same paint for inside and outside of the hull? How long did it took to finish painting the hull? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I once used a sprayer that a client rented ...skiped > This one was so huge that it sprayed a four foot wide swath, and it took only 15 minutes to put a coat on the entire outside, or the inside of a 36. I had to run with it to avoid runs in the paint . It was well worth the cost,it saved the client money. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Also if you get a professional sprayer the painting part will go fast - you'll still have to wait about 8 hours or so between all 6-8 coats > > > | 22102|22102|2010-01-15 01:34:15|wild_explorer|What was the outcome for Group's effort to put Brent's boats in 3D?|Could somebody tell me what was group's outcome to put Brent's boats in 3D? I see, that 3D subject was in discussion even in early 2001. 3D programs went long way since. What was the final result of group's (or personal) effort for this? Thanks!| 22103|22056|2010-01-15 08:31:20|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Jetdrive?|--- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, " "qzoozq" qzoozq@...   qzoozq.> wrote: Thank you very much for your fast and competent answers. It´s more or less what I figured and so, by the need of so many hps I guess the idea died just then and there. It´s probably cleverer to spend the money on a folding prop anyway. A folding prop is not intended to work in an aperture, as there is not enough length for it to fold up. It makes sense in an offset installation or sufficiently far ahead of a spade rudder.  These have their own advantages but are not features of Brent boats.  A feathering prop can work in an aperture, but is complex and expensive.  "Everything is a compromise." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22104|22052|2010-01-15 14:09:23|sitefix|Re: dink / tender|Gary, I copied you 3 articles and am studying now. Thanks, what a great benefit having people like you around. I missed it at first as I thought you meant pulse spray. so anyhow I put them together. I guess I figured no way until I perused your article about turning up the heat. Maybe I can spray after all and will look for some 5086 to practice on. merci bucu, malti grazi, domo arrigatto. aachoo!~ Thanks again, Mac (with a smile back on)| 22105|22089|2010-01-15 14:11:43|sitefix|Re: nagging questions|Ok, that's great news. I will get a chunk to play with and become familiar with it. Does the 5086 rule apply here or since it is not actually in water maybe not quite so important?? Or??? Mac --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 6 inch sch 40 has a 1/4 inch wall thickness which is plenty. > > - > > > | 22106|22089|2010-01-15 15:07:27|brentswain38|Re: nagging questions|If you have s corrosion problems they will be where you can keep an eye on them. Above a few feet above deck corrosion drops off drastically. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > Ok, that's great news. I will get a chunk to play with and become familiar with it. Does the 5086 rule apply here or since it is not actually in water maybe not quite so important?? Or??? > Mac > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > 6 inch sch 40 has a 1/4 inch wall thickness which is plenty. > > > > - > > > > > > | 22107|22000|2010-01-15 15:07:27|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|We used devoe 235 ,inside and out, topcoated with urethane above the waterline and epoxy antifouling below, wet on wet.. It took about a week to paint her. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Brent, what type of paint was used with that sprayer? Was it the same paint for inside and outside of the hull? > > How long did it took to finish painting the hull? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I once used a sprayer that a client rented > > ...skiped > > > This one was so huge that it sprayed a four foot wide swath, and it took only 15 minutes to put a coat on the entire outside, or the inside of a 36. I had to run with it to avoid runs in the paint . It was well worth the cost,it saved the client money. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > Also if you get a professional sprayer the painting part will go fast - you'll still have to wait about 8 hours or so between all 6-8 coats > > > > > > | 22108|22089|2010-01-15 15:44:46|Aaron Williams|Re: nagging questions|I believe 6" aluminum pipe only comes in 6061 series  --- On Fri, 1/15/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: nagging questions To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 15, 2010, 11:07 AM   If you have s corrosion problems they will be where you can keep an eye on them. Above a few feet above deck corrosion drops off drastically. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "sitefix" wrote: > > Ok, that's great news. I will get a chunk to play with and become familiar with it. Does the 5086 rule apply here or since it is not actually in water maybe not quite so important?? Or??? > Mac > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > 6 inch sch 40 has a 1/4 inch wall thickness which is plenty. > > > > - > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22109|22098|2010-01-15 16:57:27|martin demers|Re: wood stove ball valve damper|Brent, Also, in the book you mention that you once made a stove and it finally started to rust through. was it made of thick or thin steel? I'am asking because I can get some steel square tubing of 1 ft x 1ft the lenght of my choice and with a thicknes of around 1/4 in. wich seems to me relatively thick. stainless is hard to find in scrap yards in the Montreal area! Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 05:28:36 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: wood stove ball valve damper Pulp mill surplus ball dampers use teflon which is highly heat resistant so no problem with them. I'm not sure about the cheapies. Gate valves are all metal so no problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > In your book you mention the use of a SS ball valve as an intake damper, > can the plastic inside the valve be affected by the heat of the stove? > > Martin. > _________________________________________________________________ Souhaitez la bonne ann�e avec Messenger pour mobiles. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9706123 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22110|22110|2010-01-16 02:13:28|Ben Okopnik|Origami archive project|Hi, all - We're getting near completion. Which is not to say we're done yet, but a lot of sweat has gone by the board. :) The Origami archive is now available for your reading pleasure at http://okopnik.com/origami/ . I still need to write the search program and add a few other features (it turns out that there are *NO* programs available to do this kind of archive display, so I had to write everything from scratch), and still need to finish setting up the automatic downloading/processing routine. Both of these are about 80% finished, but not quite there yet. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22111|22111|2010-01-16 06:18:31|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Water tank|Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great solution for many reasons as we all know. I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top has to be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap between the hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, painting and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. How do you solve this problem? Alfredo| 22112|22050|2010-01-16 06:22:19|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Alluminium interiors|That is another reason why I like steel hulls. You don't need structural interiors. I can put a peace of rubber (or something similar to avoid the contact between interiors and hull. Just where I bolt them. Alfredo > if you minimize the contact between the aluminiunm interior and the hull, you can minimize the problem, as heat can only escape thru the contact points, and the interior is non structural anyway. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > > > Yes, you are right Brent. I'm just at the stage of planning things. > > But, my idea is to drow all the peace of forniture on the computer (included holes, apertures and evrything you can do at the computer), than put evrything on an alluminium sheet with minimal scrap material lost,and make cut evrything by CNC sistem. I know it's an expense but: > > it should be very quick and I can build the forniture (very simple interiors of course) before building the boat. > > I remember the interiors of the 31' you told me to have a look. > > The black one anchored outside with the black canoa. Remember? > > Something very simple like that, open space. > > Sweating problem. > > Antisweating inside (it is like a paint), very thin wood outside (less than 1 mm). > > The real matter to me (more than money) is a quick construction right to go. > > It is just an idea so far. > > My plan is also to sail in very warm conditions and places anyway, I hate cold weather. It makes evything too difficult to me. > > Hull made of steel, of course. > > alf > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each aluminium surface connected to the hull will act as a cooling fin and have major condensation problems. It will make for a very cold interior on cold frosty nights. I have spent about $50 on my interior, as plywood for scrounging is everywhere. This is definitely not the case with aluminium. I'd wait to see how it works out before making any decisions in that direction. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > > > Alluminium interiors. That's sound to me really interesting. > > > > > > > > Micke, I would like to know why have you chosen to do like that. > > > > What is the thikness of the alluminium you have used and how have you finished it. Have you calcolate the extimate weight of the interiors compare to playwood? > > > > If we can cut the hull with CNC sistem, we can do the same with alluminium interiors (easy). Steel hull and alluminium interiors, very quick. > > > > Thanks > > > > Alfredo (Italy) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just painted my aluminum BS 36. It took me a week of prep cleaning to bright. Then wiped by hand with solvent cleaner until the rags came up clean. Then wiped with water. My knees will never be the same. > > > > > > > > > > We then sprayed 2 coats of high build 2 part, then 2 coats of 2 part color then 2 coats of 2 part clear clear. > > > > > > > > > > The masking took 2 of us a complete day. The primer took a day for 2 coats. The same for the color and clear. We sprayed wet on wet. > > > > > > > > > > We did the house and cabin and decks first with 8 coats in the high traffic areas and 6 in the low. My cockpit floor is probably an 1/8" thick. > > > > > > > > > > I was exhausted after this job was done. > > > > > > > > > > I had a quote to paint the boat of $35,000. > > > > > > > > > > We did it for a fifth of that with high tech paint and lots of sweat. > > > > > > > > > > I haven't read all of the messages here re this subject which I will do now. > > > > > > > > > > You can build a boat quickly if u are not working, have all materials on hand, no wife, no kids, unlimited funds, don't look for deals, live where the weather is perfect, ............. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22113|22111|2010-01-16 10:39:16|Carl Anderson|Re: Water tank|Alfredo, This is the very reason that I went without the water tank between the keels on MOM. Very difficult to paint. Besides I really wanted to have stainless water tanks to keep the "bad taste factor" down. So I gave up some storage space under the pilothouse floor and have great tasting water! Carl sv-mom.com alfredo.nannetti@... wrote: > > > Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great > solution for many reasons as we all know. > I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top has to > be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap between > the hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, > painting and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. > How do you solve this problem? > Alfredo > > | 22114|22098|2010-01-16 10:45:15|mauro gonzaga|Re: wood stove ball valve damper|1/4 inch is the right thk for a stove. You will not miss stainless steel.Stainless steel distorts more and has a lower coefficient of heat transmission. Best would be a cast iron stove, it is cheap enough to efford. Mauro --- On Fri, 1/15/10, martin demers wrote: > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: wood stove ball valve damper > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, January 15, 2010, 10:57 PM > > > >   Brent, > > > > Also, in the book you mention that you once made a stove > and it finally started to rust through. > > was it made of thick or thin steel? > > > > I'am asking because I can get some steel square tubing of 1 > ft x 1ft the lenght of my choice and with a thicknes of > around 1/4 in. wich seems to me relatively thick. > > > > stainless is hard to find in scrap yards in the Montreal > area! > > > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 05:28:36 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: wood stove ball valve damper > >   > > > > Pulp mill surplus ball dampers use teflon which is highly > heat resistant so no problem with them. I'm not sure about > the cheapies. Gate valves are all metal so no problem. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "inter4905" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > In your book you mention the use of a SS ball valve as > an intake damper, > > can the plastic inside the valve be affected by the > heat of the stove? > > > > Martin. > > > > > > >     >          >            >   > _________________________________________________________________ > Souhaitez la bonne année avec Messenger pour mobiles. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9706123 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! > Groups Links > > >     origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > | 22115|22110|2010-01-16 12:14:21|wild_explorer|Re: Origami archive project|Ben, thanks for your hard work! It is already looks good. Please, keep us updated about your progress. Full off-line archive greatly simplified my search. Thanks again! > > The Origami archive is now available for your reading pleasure at > http://okopnik.com/origami/ . I still need to write the search program | 22116|22111|2010-01-16 12:56:41|Denis Buggy|Re: Water tank|ALFREDO this may help -buy bulk fibreglass matting sheets which can be 2 meters by 2 meters and then buy 25 lt can of resin with the large bottle of catalyst , using a large old paintbrush build up layers of fibreglass on the inside of your hull --keel area you can make the water tank as big as you wish and when you are finished you measure and make a lid inverted like a lid of a cookie tin turned upside down and fit this to the top of your tank with generous amounts of resin between the mating surfaces you can fit an inspection cover and glass in plumbing fittings .. make sure you make it strong and secure it fully and include battens in the tank as when it is half full it wants to go places you do not need it to go. the fibreglass work /mix/details are on the web free. regards denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: alfredo.nannetti@... To: origamiboats Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 11:18 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Water tank Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great solution for many reasons as we all know. I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top has to be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap between the hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, painting and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. How do you solve this problem? Alfredo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22117|22111|2010-01-16 13:00:09|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|No one has had any major problems with the watertank between the keels and the space is not too useful for anything else. If you don't put it there then you have to use more useful storage places for water tankage reducing useful storage on the boat. Making the lid large enough to let you reach all parts of the tank within arms length , and stick your head inside, makes maintenance easy and putting a window in the middle, straddling the baffle lets you check the inside of the tank anytime. The tank there is great structural support for the twin keels which, are hard to brace strongly enough without it, especially stopping the aft ends of the keels from driving up into the hull if you hit a rock. Has that happened at all to you when you hit the rock in Nanaimo, Carl? Once client made the entire top of the water tank ss and removable. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Alfredo, > > This is the very reason that I went without the water tank between the > keels on MOM. Very difficult to paint. Besides I really wanted to have > stainless water tanks to keep the "bad taste factor" down. So I gave up > some storage space under the pilothouse floor and have great tasting water! > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > alfredo.nannetti@... wrote: > > > > > > Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great > > solution for many reasons as we all know. > > I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top has to > > be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap between > > the hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, > > painting and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. > > How do you solve this problem? > > Alfredo > > > > > | 22118|22098|2010-01-16 13:07:56|brentswain38|Re: wood stove ball valve damper|1/4 inch wont rust thru any time soon. It was not the rusting thru that was my problem, but the constant shedding of flaky rust. That cold galvanizing primer over sandblasted steel is incredibly heat resistant. Friends have had it last years on a woodstove. I have had no problem with heat transfer on my ss stove. 1/8th ss doesn't hold heat in . You are welcome to put your hand on mine when it is running, to check it out. Stainless is far more scarce here than it used to be, since the recession started. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > 1/4 inch is the right thk for a stove. You will not miss stainless steel.Stainless steel distorts more and has a lower coefficient of heat transmission. Best would be a cast iron stove, it is cheap enough to efford. > Mauro > > --- On Fri, 1/15/10, martin demers wrote: > > > From: martin demers > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: wood stove ball valve damper > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Friday, January 15, 2010, 10:57 PM > > > > > > > >   Brent, > > > > > > > > Also, in the book you mention that you once made a stove > > and it finally started to rust through. > > > > was it made of thick or thin steel? > > > > > > > > I'am asking because I can get some steel square tubing of 1 > > ft x 1ft the lenght of my choice and with a thicknes of > > around 1/4 in. wich seems to me relatively thick. > > > > > > > > stainless is hard to find in scrap yards in the Montreal > > area! > > > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 05:28:36 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: wood stove ball valve damper > > > >   > > > > > > > > Pulp mill surplus ball dampers use teflon which is highly > > heat resistant so no problem with them. I'm not sure about > > the cheapies. Gate valves are all metal so no problem. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > "inter4905" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > In your book you mention the use of a SS ball valve as > > an intake damper, > > > can the plastic inside the valve be affected by the > > heat of the stove? > > > > > > Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > >     > >          > >            > >   > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Souhaitez la bonne année avec Messenger pour mobiles. > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9706123 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! > > Groups Links > > > > > >     origamiboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > | 22119|22111|2010-01-16 13:14:23|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|I worry about what is happening between a dropped in water tank and the hull under it. It doesn't ever get looked at, until there is a problem . It is a dank sludgy area which can never dry out properly nor be cleaned or maintained. With the built in water tank, you can look at the bottom of the tank, which is the hull, thru the window any time.I'm leery about sludgy areas which are inaccessibly hidden for decades. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > ALFREDO > this may help -buy bulk fibreglass matting sheets which can be 2 meters by 2 meters and then buy 25 lt can of resin with the large bottle of catalyst , > using a large old paintbrush build up layers of fibreglass on the inside of your hull --keel area you can make the water tank as big as you wish and when you are finished you measure and make a lid inverted like a lid of a cookie tin turned upside down and fit this to the top of your tank with generous amounts of resin between the mating surfaces > you can fit an inspection cover and glass in plumbing fittings .. make sure you make it strong and secure it fully and include battens in the tank as when it is half full it wants to go places you do not need it to go. > the fibreglass work /mix/details are on the web free. regards denis buggy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: alfredo.nannetti@... > To: origamiboats > Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 11:18 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Water tank > > > > Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great solution for many reasons as we all know. > I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top has to be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap between the hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, painting and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. > How do you solve this problem? > Alfredo > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22120|22111|2010-01-16 13:16:06|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|I worry about what is happening between a dropped in water tank and the hull under it. It doesn't ever get looked at, until there is a problem . It is a dank sludgy area which can never dry out properly nor be cleaned or maintained. With the built in water tank, you can look at the bottom of the tank, which is the hull, thru the window any time.I'm leery about sludgy areas which are inaccessibly hidden for decades. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > ALFREDO > this may help -buy bulk fibreglass matting sheets which can be 2 meters by 2 meters and then buy 25 lt can of resin with the large bottle of catalyst , > using a large old paintbrush build up layers of fibreglass on the inside of your hull --keel area you can make the water tank as big as you wish and when you are finished you measure and make a lid inverted like a lid of a cookie tin turned upside down and fit this to the top of your tank with generous amounts of resin between the mating surfaces > you can fit an inspection cover and glass in plumbing fittings .. make sure you make it strong and secure it fully and include battens in the tank as when it is half full it wants to go places you do not need it to go. > the fibreglass work /mix/details are on the web free. regards denis buggy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: alfredo.nannetti@... > To: origamiboats > Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 11:18 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Water tank > > > > Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great solution for many reasons as we all know. > I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top has to be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap between the hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, painting and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. > How do you solve this problem? > Alfredo > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22121|22111|2010-01-16 13:21:15|Aaron Williams|Re: Water tank|I like the way Edward Sone built his internal tank.I may be extra work but it does apear to solve the question about seal welding the inside of the tank. Aaron --- On Sat, 1/16/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water tank To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 8:59 AM   No one has had any major problems with the watertank between the keels and the space is not too useful for anything else. If you don't put it there then you have to use more useful storage places for water tankage reducing useful storage on the boat. Making the lid large enough to let you reach all parts of the tank within arms length , and stick your head inside, makes maintenance easy and putting a window in the middle, straddling the baffle lets you check the inside of the tank anytime. The tank there is great structural support for the twin keels which, are hard to brace strongly enough without it, especially stopping the aft ends of the keels from driving up into the hull if you hit a rock. Has that happened at all to you when you hit the rock in Nanaimo, Carl? Once client made the entire top of the water tank ss and removable. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Alfredo, > > This is the very reason that I went without the water tank between the > keels on MOM. Very difficult to paint. Besides I really wanted to have > stainless water tanks to keep the "bad taste factor" down. So I gave up > some storage space under the pilothouse floor and have great tasting water! > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > alfredo.nannetti@ ... wrote: > > > > > > Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great > > solution for many reasons as we all know. > > I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top has to > > be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap between > > the hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, > > painting and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. > > How do you solve this problem? > > Alfredo > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22122|22111|2010-01-16 13:27:27|Tom Mann|Re: Water tank|I have seen quite a few photos where they put box type sides just a few inches tall, eliminates the V that way. Tom On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 3:18 AM, alfredo.nannetti@... < alfredo.nannetti@...> wrote: > Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great solution > for many reasons as we all know. > I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top has to > be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap between the > hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, painting > and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. > How do you solve this problem? > Alfredo > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22123|22111|2010-01-16 13:46:29|markh|Re: Water tank|I think Brents rationale for the built in tanks is the best. However, FYI you might like to see how this one builder used HDPE plastic to make tanks. http://homepage.mac.com/agunther/.Public/pilot_house/prj.html Go to "Current Status" and scroll down. Alot more work and much more expensive probably but as I said FYI. MarkH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22124|22111|2010-01-16 14:56:53|theboilerflue|Re: Water tank|The tank is difficult to paint although I think it sandblasts pretty good when you stick the nozzle into the tank and let the sand bounce around inside it seemed to hit everywhere inside pretty good also my metal was shop primed and only needed a light blasting in most spot, just the rusty stuff needed it bad and the tank was in pretty good shape. Actually I believe Alex put a coat of zinc paint onto it at some point early on? Painting with a brush or a roller was pretty much impossible but with a sprayer it was pretty easy I just sprayed a lot of paint all around it was hard to check to make sure I got it everywhere because of the fumes so I just made sure with extra paint. I also am using it as a fuel tank not for water, I also have nice tasting water out of my stainless steel tanks. they're about 14"x36" tubes with two baffles each bolted to the 3x3 angle stiffeners above the keels. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great solution for many reasons as we all know. > I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top has to be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap between the hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, painting and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. > How do you solve this problem? > Alfredo > | 22125|22111|2010-01-16 16:40:43|Carl Anderson|Hitting the rocks in Nanaimo|Kate here, the one who cut Newcastle Island too close. but as they say, "Ya haven't been around until you've run aground". We put those baffles in our SS tanks. However, the only damage to MOM is that we scraped some paint off the bottom of the keels. Oh, yeah, my pride ;} To see the pictures, go to sv-mom.com & click on "2008" in the left menu. The slide show on that page shows my faux pas'... Tah tah to all, k PS: we just got back from the scrap yard here in Salt Lake City. WOW, we came outta there w/ such goodies! We took a picture of a huge pile of 316 SS plate. We got 3 - 6' long pieces of SS hinge we're gonna use for steps inside the boat. We're gonna make the steps fold down if we want. Thus the hinge. We got some ball cocks, plate, angle, 3-way valve, 1/2 rod, a dog bowl, etc etc for about $50. Then we stopped by West Marine on the way home & saw that hinge for 60$ a piece!!! Utah Metal, oh yeah! brentswain38 wrote: > > > No one has had any major problems with the watertank between the keels > and the space is not too useful for anything else. If you don't put it > there then you have to use more useful storage places for water tankage > reducing useful storage on the boat. Making the lid large enough to let > you reach all parts of the tank within arms length , and stick your head > inside, makes maintenance easy and putting a window in the middle, > straddling the baffle lets you check the inside of the tank anytime. The > tank there is great structural support for the twin keels which, are > hard to brace strongly enough without it, especially stopping the aft > ends of the keels from driving up into the hull if you hit a rock. Has > that happened at all to you when you hit the rock in Nanaimo, Carl? > Once client made the entire top of the water tank ss and removable. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Alfredo, > > > > This is the very reason that I went without the water tank between the > > keels on MOM. Very difficult to paint. Besides I really wanted to have > > stainless water tanks to keep the "bad taste factor" down. So I gave up > > some storage space under the pilothouse floor and have great tasting > water! > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > alfredo.nannetti@... wrote: > > > > > > > > > Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great > > > solution for many reasons as we all know. > > > I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top > has to > > > be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap > between > > > the hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, > > > painting and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. > > > How do you solve this problem? > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > > > | 22126|22000|2010-01-16 16:53:01|yvesmariedetanton|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|CNC files are available for the Imagiro 39'Hull. With many different layouts, decks are another matter. Aft cockpit;raised deck with pilothouse;trunk cabin with pilothouse; midship cockpit. I can on demand, provide files for a specific deck configuration. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > All hulls were built from paper plans, there are no CNC files that I know of. > > Is it very difficult to make CNC files for the hull and deck? Or just nobody wanted to do so for BS40? > > > Can you co-ordinate the arrival/purchase of all materials before hand. > > More likely. If I know EXACTLY what i need. > > > Do you have an > > indoor building site? > > Not yet. Why do I need indoor site? Could you tell me please. It might be possible to find ex-boat building site in Portland or in SF Bay Area next to water. > > > What level of finish is required by you? I think you could but it's > > pushing the envelope. > > Fully welded hull (+ windows, door, hutches, tanks, ballast, etc - everything what need to be done before foaming). Engine ready to power the boat. Tabs and strips to put interior on, painted hull, foamed. No interior (at all OR, may be, some plywood instead of floor to walk on). No rigging, but some hardware to put/mount it later. Basically - the hull ready to touch water and power away (by engine). > > > > Am I dreaming? > > > > Who here isn't? ; ) > > :)) > | 22127|22110|2010-01-16 19:32:05|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami archive project|On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 05:13:24PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Ben, thanks for your hard work! It is already looks good. Please, keep > us updated about your progress. I've just added a search facility, in which all posts can be searched by subject, author, content (or any combination of these), or Yahoo post number (some people used these as references in their posts.) I've also formatted it a bit more nicely, and there's now a help file for the search engine. > Full off-line archive greatly simplified my search. Thanks again! You're welcome! I hope everyone finds it as handy as you have, and meanwhile, we'll have a daily running backup of the group (that's the next - and last - part of this project.) > > The Origami archive is now available for your reading pleasure at > > http://okopnik.com/origami/ . -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22128|22091|2010-01-16 20:14:50|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Aluminum welding 3|Yep, I'm an electrical guy and I know that. Still wrote it backwards! Experience, what allows you to recognize a mistake. When make it again. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gord Schnell" To: Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminum welding 3 > I'd like to make one correction and here's hoping no one is offended: > In electric current flow, it is the electrons that are "torn" from the > molecule and form the current. Electrons are negatively charged. > Therefore, the current is made up of electrons (-) and they are > attracted to the (+) source. > Gord > > On 14-Jan-10, at 4:35 PM, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gary H. Lucas" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:47 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminium welding >> >> > Eduardo, >> > Polarity is the same for all Mig welding steel or aluminum. This >> would be >> > positive electrode or what is called 'Reverse' polarity from what >> you >> > would stick weld with. The reason is that the current flows from >> positive >> > to negative, and you want the heat going into the puddle, not into >> the >> > relatively tiny welding wire. With stick you need the current >> flowing >> > into the much larger rod to melt it completely. >> > >> > You want to use straight Argon for aluminum. If you get crater >> cracking >> > at the finish of a weld you should suspect you have a leaky gas >> hose or >> > contaminated Argon. I got a bottle of argon contaminated with >> nitrogen >> > once. I couldn't make a good weld no how after changing the >> bottle. I >> > put the old bottle back on that had a tiny bit left and the >> problems went >> > away. The gas supplier admitted to me that his supplier >> accidentally mixed >> > liquid argon with liquid nitrogen. Oops! A hundred grand or so of >> > worthless gas! >> > >> > I didn't specify the voltage because so often machines don't have >> a volt >> > meter, and I don't really know an exact number. So I have always >> just >> > kept turning it up until all the indicators I mentioned show up. >> This >> > isn't a subtle thing you will miss when it goes from short arc to >> spray >> > arc, it happens quite suddenly. >> > >> > Speed is a similar issue, although speed is directly proportional to >> > current. If you double the speed you double the current. Makes >> sense, it >> > takes X amount of energy to vaporize Y amount of wire. Double Y >> and you >> > need to double X. As you keep raising the voltage the wire >> stickout will >> > get shorter and shorter, so you need to raise the wire speed so it >> doesn't >> > burn back into the tip. The wire feed speed is constant. The stick >> out >> > of the wire adjusts automatically when you are using a constant >> voltage >> > machine. This happens because the resistance of the arc determines >> how >> > much current it can carry, and how fast the wire burns. When the >> arc is >> > short, the current goes up and the wires burns back. As the wire >> gets >> > shorter the arc gets longer, increasing the resistance, and >> lowering the >> > current so the wire burns slower and extends out further. >> > >> > I have welded with constant current stick machines using a Miller >> gun with >> > a control that has a switch for use with constant current >> machines. these >> > controls have what looks like an extra small ground clamp that you >> place >> > nearer the weld. What is does is measure the arc voltage and >> adjust the >> > speed of the wire feed motor to match the current. This setup >> works but >> > has a few gotchas. It has a tendency to give a cold start because >> the >> > current can't rise real high at start. I frequently preheated with >> a gas >> > torch if starting weld quality was important. It is much more >> sensitive >> > to your technique too. A constant voltage machine is much preferred. >> > >> > About the worst thing you can have is a cheap Mig welding machine. >> Cheap >> > machines will always make a cold start because the transformer is >> sized to >> > provide only the machines rated welding current, not the 1000 amps >> or so >> > that will instantly vaporize a cold wire on start. So you get wire >> > stubbing, and poor quality at the start of every weld. Buy a good >> old >> > industrial machine, sell it for what you paid when you are done. >> > >> > In case you are wondering about how I know about this stuff above, >> it's >> > not because I'm a welder. I was an industrial electrician first. >> During >> > my second career in the greenhouse industry I also did welding >> machine >> > repairs for my partner who owned an industrial gas supply. I would >> test >> > weld with all kinds of machines to figure out what repairs they >> might >> > need. >> > >> > Wire size is very important for both steel and aluminum welding. >> Wire >> > size determines the current you will be welding with. >> Unfortunately Mig >> > machines will produce beautiful looking welds with a wire size >> that is too >> > small to produce adequate penetration. For instance 0.035" wire is >> very >> > popular for steel welding. I used to produce machine frames from >> 1/16" >> > wall round and rectangular steel tubes and 1/8" thick hot rolled >> strap and >> > angle. We got beautiful welds with 0.035" wire. We also had so >> many weld >> > failures after galvanizing that we had to find another way. The only >> > thing that solved the problem consistently was to increase the >> wire size >> > to 0.045". That made welding somewhat difficult on such thin >> material. >> > You had to put the heat in the right place and a 1" long weld was >> done >> > almost before you had time to think about what you were doing. The >> weld >> > failures stopped though, and our welding costs went down quite a >> lot too. >> > Don't be fooled into thinking that your bead has great strength >> because it >> > is pretty, if the wire was too small you will very surprised at >> how little >> > penetration you will get. >> > >> > On aluminum it is very important that you use the right alloy for >> the base >> > metal. The right alloy is usually NOT the same alloy as the base >> metal! >> > The weld bead and the base metal are mixing at the fusion zone, >> creating a >> > third alloy. So you typically find the 6061 and 6063 structural >> alloys >> > being welded with 4043 wire. The 6000 series alloys lose strength >> when >> > welded because they are heat treated. The welding heat anneals the >> area >> > near the weld. 5000 series alloys typically used for marine plate >> are not >> > heat treated so they lose very little strength when welded. >> > >> > You are going to want to use probably 5/64 wire on 1/4" plate for >> good >> > penetration. If your machine won't do a good start on that size >> wire it >> > is too small for the task. Going to smaller wire could work, but I >> would >> > do extensive testing of samples before trusting it. Welding small >> samples >> > can be VERY misleading on aluminum. It heats so quickly that a small >> > sample will be at five hundred degrees in seconds, and will weld >> very >> > well. The same material in a 4 x 8 sheet and you may not even have >> the >> > power to get it hot enough to burn your hand! >> > >> > Hope this helps. >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "drddias" >> > To: >> > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:57 PM >> > Subject: [origamiboats] aluminium welding >> > >> > >> > Thanks Gary Lucas for your lesson in the subject >> > but please tell me the other details: >> > where to connect the positive/negative >> > what wire >> > what gaz >> > what volts (turn it up!!) >> > what speed >> > for marine plate say 1/4" >> > regards >> > eduardo >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 22129|22111|2010-01-16 20:38:41|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|I think integral water tank is a very good idea. It adds strength to he hull and will not let water in if hull damaged under tank's area. As was pointed already, it act as a floor too. May be it is just need to have two tanks. 1-st from SS for drinking water, 2-nd for "house" water (cleaning dishes, washing hands, shower, etc.) Smaller 1-st SS tank would be easier to keep under negative pressure - keeps water fresh 3-4 times longer than under atmosphere pressure. I do not know if it would be enough room to keep 1-st tank inside 2-nd (big) one. As I know, it is better to have 2 waste tanks for waste water too. One for "gray water", second for "black water" (sewage). "Black water" tank should be plastic to withstand very corrosive environment. Waste tanks are more important at the marinas or monitored waters, than in the ocean ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Alfredo, > > This is the very reason that I went without the water tank between the > keels on MOM. Very difficult to paint. Besides I really wanted to have > stainless water tanks to keep the "bad taste factor" down. So I gave up > some storage space under the pilothouse floor and have great tasting water! > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > alfredo.nannetti@... wrote: > > > > > > Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great > > solution for many reasons as we all know. > > I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top has to > > be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap between > > the hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, > > painting and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. > > How do you solve this problem? > > Alfredo > > > > > | 22130|22091|2010-01-16 20:45:29|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Aluminum welding 3|Doug, 5/64 aluminum wire is not a really big wire. It's an easy size to get. Aluminum takes a huge amount of heat compared to steel, and you need the wire size to handle the current density. The feed rate will be slower, because the amount of metal needed for the weld bead is the same with any wire size. Absolutely you want CV Constant Voltage mode. With CV the arc length is tightly controlled. With CC Constant Current you need a gun with a variable speed motor that senses the current and adjusts the speed. It works, but not as well. The main reason is that constant current welders can't supply the high current needed for a good hot start. The arc voltage is going to be about 21 volts, where for steel it would be maybe 16 - 18 tops. The speed control knob on the gun is current adjust. Start with the voltage lower, and have a helper adjust it up on the welding machine until the arc transitions completely into spray arc mode. You'll know when it happens, it's kind of magical. The sparks stop flying out of the arc, the sound changes to the sound of spray painting, the arc takes on a fan shape, the ripples in the weld flatten to a gentle undulation, and you are putting metal down at an incredible rate! Arrgh, after writing this far I realize you are talking about STEEL! Okay, skip the 5/64, that's for aluminum, use 0.045" steel wire. That will give you good penetration, and will weld about twice as fast as 0.035" wire. I don't like straight CO2 it spatters like hell and you have a lot of cleanup to do. In big structural welding I understand they run straight CO2 with the current really high and actually spray arc weld with it. I prefer C25, 75% Argon, 25% CO2. Straight Argon is not good for steel welding, you don't get good wetting in of the bead. Steel welding is short arc. If you watch the arc closely you will see the wire getting longer and shorter very rapidly as it short, burns back, and shorts again. The welding voltage will be in the range of 14-16 volts I believe. On steel welding if the voltage is too high you will get a much more violent arc and lots of spatter to clean up. Steel welding always spatters quite a lot as it is. I don't know a lot about the various steel alloy wires. I have used the highly deoxidized ones because they work best on rusty steel. The steel must be MUCH cleaner for mig welding. Don't try picking up a piece of rusty metal and welding it. Hit it with a wire wheel first. I have no experience with flux cored wires. I know they can even be used without gas, and are much more wind resistant. Hope this helps, Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Jackson" To: Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminum welding 3 > Yeah, but has anyone ever seen it happen? :) > > Gary: > >> You are going to want to use probably 5/64 wire on 1/4" plate for good >> penetration. > > Kay and I will be doing nearly everything in 1/4" plate. Our rig is a > Lincoln Invertec V300 powering a Cobramatic water cooled, push-pull > feeder. We plan to do a couple of cycles of stitch, flip, back gouge, > stitch for the hull plates. Would you still recommend 5/64? And can you > suggest starting wire feed speed and volt/amp setting? And would you > suggest CV GMAW mode? And what wire? Would Gas-Shielded Flux-Core, > usually E71T-1 do best with pure CO2? > > Doug > > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine > Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gord Schnell > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 7:40:04 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminum welding 3 > > I'd like to make one correction and here's hoping no one is offended: > In electric current flow, it is the electrons that are "torn" from the > molecule and form the current. Electrons are negatively charged. > Therefore, the current is made up of electrons (-) and they are > attracted to the (+) source. > Gord > > On 14-Jan-10, at 4:35 PM, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gary H. Lucas" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:47 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminium welding >> >> > Eduardo, >> > Polarity is the same for all Mig welding steel or aluminum. This >> would be >> > positive electrode or what is called 'Reverse' polarity from what >> you >> > would stick weld with. The reason is that the current flows from >> positive >> > to negative, and you want the heat going into the puddle, not into >> the >> > relatively tiny welding wire. With stick you need the current >> flowing >> > into the much larger rod to melt it completely. >> > >> > You want to use straight Argon for aluminum. If you get crater >> cracking >> > at the finish of a weld you should suspect you have a leaky gas >> hose or >> > contaminated Argon. I got a bottle of argon contaminated with >> nitrogen >> > once. I couldn't make a good weld no how after changing the >> bottle. I >> > put the old bottle back on that had a tiny bit left and the >> problems went >> > away. The gas supplier admitted to me that his supplier >> accidentally mixed >> > liquid argon with liquid nitrogen. Oops! A hundred grand or so of >> > worthless gas! >> > >> > I didn't specify the voltage because so often machines don't have >> a volt >> > meter, and I don't really know an exact number. So I have always >> just >> > kept turning it up until all the indicators I mentioned show up. >> This >> > isn't a subtle thing you will miss when it goes from short arc to >> spray >> > arc, it happens quite suddenly. >> > >> > Speed is a similar issue, although speed is directly proportional to >> > current. If you double the speed you double the current. Makes >> sense, it >> > takes X amount of energy to vaporize Y amount of wire. Double Y >> and you >> > need to double X. As you keep raising the voltage the wire >> stickout will >> > get shorter and shorter, so you need to raise the wire speed so it >> doesn't >> > burn back into the tip. The wire feed speed is constant. The stick >> out >> > of the wire adjusts automatically when you are using a constant >> voltage >> > machine. This happens because the resistance of the arc determines >> how >> > much current it can carry, and how fast the wire burns. When the >> arc is >> > short, the current goes up and the wires burns back. As the wire >> gets >> > shorter the arc gets longer, increasing the resistance, and >> lowering the >> > current so the wire burns slower and extends out further. >> > >> > I have welded with constant current stick machines using a Miller >> gun with >> > a control that has a switch for use with constant current >> machines. these >> > controls have what looks like an extra small ground clamp that you >> place >> > nearer the weld. What is does is measure the arc voltage and >> adjust the >> > speed of the wire feed motor to match the current. This setup >> works but >> > has a few gotchas. It has a tendency to give a cold start because >> the >> > current can't rise real high at start. I frequently preheated with >> a gas >> > torch if starting weld quality was important. It is much more >> sensitive >> > to your technique too. A constant voltage machine is much preferred. >> > >> > About the worst thing you can have is a cheap Mig welding machine. >> Cheap >> > machines will always make a cold start because the transformer is >> sized to >> > provide only the machines rated welding current, not the 1000 amps >> or so >> > that will instantly vaporize a cold wire on start. So you get wire >> > stubbing, and poor quality at the start of every weld. Buy a good >> old >> > industrial machine, sell it for what you paid when you are done. >> > >> > In case you are wondering about how I know about this stuff above, >> it's >> > not because I'm a welder. I was an industrial electrician first. >> During >> > my second career in the greenhouse industry I also did welding >> machine >> > repairs for my partner who owned an industrial gas supply. I would >> test >> > weld with all kinds of machines to figure out what repairs they >> might >> > need. >> > >> > Wire size is very important for both steel and aluminum welding. >> Wire >> > size determines the current you will be welding with. >> Unfortunately Mig >> > machines will produce beautiful looking welds with a wire size >> that is too >> > small to produce adequate penetration. For instance 0.035" wire is >> very >> > popular for steel welding. I used to produce machine frames from >> 1/16" >> > wall round and rectangular steel tubes and 1/8" thick hot rolled >> strap and >> > angle. We got beautiful welds with 0.035" wire. We also had so >> many weld >> > failures after galvanizing that we had to find another way. The only >> > thing that solved the problem consistently was to increase the >> wire size >> > to 0.045". That made welding somewhat difficult on such thin >> material. >> > You had to put the heat in the right place and a 1" long weld was >> done >> > almost before you had time to think about what you were doing. The >> weld >> > failures stopped though, and our welding costs went down quite a >> lot too. >> > Don't be fooled into thinking that your bead has great strength >> because it >> > is pretty, if the wire was too small you will very surprised at >> how little >> > penetration you will get. >> > >> > On aluminum it is very important that you use the right alloy for >> the base >> > metal. The right alloy is usually NOT the same alloy as the base >> metal! >> > The weld bead and the base metal are mixing at the fusion zone, >> creating a >> > third alloy. So you typically find the 6061 and 6063 structural >> alloys >> > being welded with 4043 wire. The 6000 series alloys lose strength >> when >> > welded because they are heat treated. The welding heat anneals the >> area >> > near the weld. 5000 series alloys typically used for marine plate >> are not >> > heat treated so they lose very little strength when welded. >> > >> > You are going to want to use probably 5/64 wire on 1/4" plate for >> good >> > penetration. If your machine won't do a good start on that size >> wire it >> > is too small for the task. Going to smaller wire could work, but I >> would >> > do extensive testing of samples before trusting it. Welding small >> samples >> > can be VERY misleading on aluminum. It heats so quickly that a small >> > sample will be at five hundred degrees in seconds, and will weld >> very >> > well. The same material in a 4 x 8 sheet and you may not even have >> the >> > power to get it hot enough to burn your hand! >> > >> > Hope this helps. >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "drddias" >> > To: >> > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:57 PM >> > Subject: [origamiboats] aluminium welding >> > >> > >> > Thanks Gary Lucas for your lesson in the subject >> > but please tell me the other details: >> > where to connect the positive/negative >> > what wire >> > what gaz >> > what volts (turn it up!!) >> > what speed >> > for marine plate say 1/4" >> > regards >> > eduardo >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 22131|22091|2010-01-16 20:59:48|Tom Mann|Re: Aluminum welding 3|Doug the dual sheild works ok, you still have to block the wind, heavy slag but it does clean off easy. The added cost of the wire and extra flow rate on the gas didnt seem worth it to me compared to solid wire. Tom On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Yeah, but has anyone ever seen it happen? :) > > Gary: > > > You are going to want to use probably 5/64 wire on 1/4" plate for good > > penetration. > > Kay and I will be doing nearly everything in 1/4" plate. Our rig is a > Lincoln Invertec V300 powering a Cobramatic water cooled, push-pull feeder. > We plan to do a couple of cycles of stitch, flip, back gouge, stitch for > the hull plates. Would you still recommend 5/64? And can you suggest > starting wire feed speed and volt/amp setting? And would you suggest CV > GMAW mode? And what wire? Would Gas-Shielded Flux-Core, usually E71T-1 do > best with pure CO2? > > Doug > > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine > Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gord Schnell > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 7:40:04 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminum welding 3 > > I'd like to make one correction and here's hoping no one is offended: > In electric current flow, it is the electrons that are "torn" from the > molecule and form the current. Electrons are negatively charged. > Therefore, the current is made up of electrons (-) and they are > attracted to the (+) source. > Gord > > On 14-Jan-10, at 4:35 PM, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:47 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminium welding > > > > > Eduardo, > > > Polarity is the same for all Mig welding steel or aluminum. This > > would be > > > positive electrode or what is called 'Reverse' polarity from what > > you > > > would stick weld with. The reason is that the current flows from > > positive > > > to negative, and you want the heat going into the puddle, not into > > the > > > relatively tiny welding wire. With stick you need the current > > flowing > > > into the much larger rod to melt it completely. > > > > > > You want to use straight Argon for aluminum. If you get crater > > cracking > > > at the finish of a weld you should suspect you have a leaky gas > > hose or > > > contaminated Argon. I got a bottle of argon contaminated with > > nitrogen > > > once. I couldn't make a good weld no how after changing the > > bottle. I > > > put the old bottle back on that had a tiny bit left and the > > problems went > > > away. The gas supplier admitted to me that his supplier > > accidentally mixed > > > liquid argon with liquid nitrogen. Oops! A hundred grand or so of > > > worthless gas! > > > > > > I didn't specify the voltage because so often machines don't have > > a volt > > > meter, and I don't really know an exact number. So I have always > > just > > > kept turning it up until all the indicators I mentioned show up. > > This > > > isn't a subtle thing you will miss when it goes from short arc to > > spray > > > arc, it happens quite suddenly. > > > > > > Speed is a similar issue, although speed is directly proportional to > > > current. If you double the speed you double the current. Makes > > sense, it > > > takes X amount of energy to vaporize Y amount of wire. Double Y > > and you > > > need to double X. As you keep raising the voltage the wire > > stickout will > > > get shorter and shorter, so you need to raise the wire speed so it > > doesn't > > > burn back into the tip. The wire feed speed is constant. The stick > > out > > > of the wire adjusts automatically when you are using a constant > > voltage > > > machine. This happens because the resistance of the arc determines > > how > > > much current it can carry, and how fast the wire burns. When the > > arc is > > > short, the current goes up and the wires burns back. As the wire > > gets > > > shorter the arc gets longer, increasing the resistance, and > > lowering the > > > current so the wire burns slower and extends out further. > > > > > > I have welded with constant current stick machines using a Miller > > gun with > > > a control that has a switch for use with constant current > > machines. these > > > controls have what looks like an extra small ground clamp that you > > place > > > nearer the weld. What is does is measure the arc voltage and > > adjust the > > > speed of the wire feed motor to match the current. This setup > > works but > > > has a few gotchas. It has a tendency to give a cold start because > > the > > > current can't rise real high at start. I frequently preheated with > > a gas > > > torch if starting weld quality was important. It is much more > > sensitive > > > to your technique too. A constant voltage machine is much preferred. > > > > > > About the worst thing you can have is a cheap Mig welding machine. > > Cheap > > > machines will always make a cold start because the transformer is > > sized to > > > provide only the machines rated welding current, not the 1000 amps > > or so > > > that will instantly vaporize a cold wire on start. So you get wire > > > stubbing, and poor quality at the start of every weld. Buy a good > > old > > > industrial machine, sell it for what you paid when you are done. > > > > > > In case you are wondering about how I know about this stuff above, > > it's > > > not because I'm a welder. I was an industrial electrician first. > > During > > > my second career in the greenhouse industry I also did welding > > machine > > > repairs for my partner who owned an industrial gas supply. I would > > test > > > weld with all kinds of machines to figure out what repairs they > > might > > > need. > > > > > > Wire size is very important for both steel and aluminum welding. > > Wire > > > size determines the current you will be welding with. > > Unfortunately Mig > > > machines will produce beautiful looking welds with a wire size > > that is too > > > small to produce adequate penetration. For instance 0.035" wire is > > very > > > popular for steel welding. I used to produce machine frames from > > 1/16" > > > wall round and rectangular steel tubes and 1/8" thick hot rolled > > strap and > > > angle. We got beautiful welds with 0.035" wire. We also had so > > many weld > > > failures after galvanizing that we had to find another way. The only > > > thing that solved the problem consistently was to increase the > > wire size > > > to 0.045". That made welding somewhat difficult on such thin > > material. > > > You had to put the heat in the right place and a 1" long weld was > > done > > > almost before you had time to think about what you were doing. The > > weld > > > failures stopped though, and our welding costs went down quite a > > lot too. > > > Don't be fooled into thinking that your bead has great strength > > because it > > > is pretty, if the wire was too small you will very surprised at > > how little > > > penetration you will get. > > > > > > On aluminum it is very important that you use the right alloy for > > the base > > > metal. The right alloy is usually NOT the same alloy as the base > > metal! > > > The weld bead and the base metal are mixing at the fusion zone, > > creating a > > > third alloy. So you typically find the 6061 and 6063 structural > > alloys > > > being welded with 4043 wire. The 6000 series alloys lose strength > > when > > > welded because they are heat treated. The welding heat anneals the > > area > > > near the weld. 5000 series alloys typically used for marine plate > > are not > > > heat treated so they lose very little strength when welded. > > > > > > You are going to want to use probably 5/64 wire on 1/4" plate for > > good > > > penetration. If your machine won't do a good start on that size > > wire it > > > is too small for the task. Going to smaller wire could work, but I > > would > > > do extensive testing of samples before trusting it. Welding small > > samples > > > can be VERY misleading on aluminum. It heats so quickly that a small > > > sample will be at five hundred degrees in seconds, and will weld > > very > > > well. The same material in a 4 x 8 sheet and you may not even have > > the > > > power to get it hot enough to burn your hand! > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "drddias" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:57 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] aluminium welding > > > > > > > > > Thanks Gary Lucas for your lesson in the subject > > > but please tell me the other details: > > > where to connect the positive/negative > > > what wire > > > what gaz > > > what volts (turn it up!!) > > > what speed > > > for marine plate say 1/4" > > > regards > > > eduardo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22132|22110|2010-01-16 22:45:34|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami archive project|On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 07:31:37PM -0500, Benjamin Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 05:13:24PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > > > Full off-line archive greatly simplified my search. Thanks again! > > You're welcome! I hope everyone finds it as handy as you have, and > meanwhile, we'll have a daily running backup of the group (that's the > next - and last - part of this project.) Which is now completed. The archive is up to date as of an hour or so ago; the automatic retrieval system will update it once a day. In theory, this thing should now run on rails: we'll have a running backup, just in case. We also have (I'm going to take a moment of pride in my own craftsmanship :) a pretty nice interface and a *very* fancy search engine. The only thing we can't really do with the archive is show everything arranged by threads - Yahoo stole that information from us. It's a header in the emails that each of us sent to the list, and it cannot be reconstructed from the Yahoo pages - and threading can't just be done by subject. I've managed to reconstruct pretty much everything else of importance, but that's lost. Suggestions for improvements are always welcome! > The Origami archive is now available for your reading pleasure at > http://okopnik.com/origami/ . -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22133|22111|2010-01-17 00:32:07|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|I have a 3/4 inch thru hull in the galley with an ss ball valve on it for washing water. I use an airhead type composting head, which eliminates the holding tank and thru hulls. Gray water is too much volume to contain in a tank while living aboard full time, and it's environmentally harmless anyway, especially compared to what cities put out. I wouldn't go anywhere where the harbour Taliban are that obsessive. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I think integral water tank is a very good idea. It adds strength to he hull and will not let water in if hull damaged under tank's area. As was pointed already, it act as a floor too. > > May be it is just need to have two tanks. 1-st from SS for drinking water, 2-nd for "house" water (cleaning dishes, washing hands, shower, etc.) Smaller 1-st SS tank would be easier to keep under negative pressure - keeps water fresh 3-4 times longer than under atmosphere pressure. I do not know if it would be enough room to keep 1-st tank inside 2-nd (big) one. > > As I know, it is better to have 2 waste tanks for waste water too. One for "gray water", second for "black water" (sewage). "Black water" tank should be plastic to withstand very corrosive environment. Waste tanks are more important at the marinas or monitored waters, than in the ocean ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Alfredo, > > > > This is the very reason that I went without the water tank between the > > keels on MOM. Very difficult to paint. Besides I really wanted to have > > stainless water tanks to keep the "bad taste factor" down. So I gave up > > some storage space under the pilothouse floor and have great tasting water! > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > alfredo.nannetti@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Bilge keels have the water tank right in between, which is a great > > > solution for many reasons as we all know. > > > I just wander how to prevent corrosion inside. The water tank top has to > > > be weld above and not belove (impossible) and the all around gap between > > > the hull and the tank top is going to be very narrow for sunblasting, > > > painting and maintenance, in spite of the inspection plate. > > > How do you solve this problem? > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > > | 22134|22111|2010-01-17 01:46:52|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|At least even small "gray water" tank gives you an option to dump it in allowed zone/pump station (or at night time) IF rules are enforced. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Gray water is too much volume to contain in a tank while living aboard full time, and it's environmentally harmless anyway, especially compared to what cities put out. > I wouldn't go anywhere where the harbour Taliban are that obsessive. | 22135|22111|2010-01-17 02:57:51|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Water tank|Thank you very much to all of you about your suggeriments. My impression is that the final solution didn't come up yet. Structural water tanks (bilge keels) are great for all of those reasons: strenght of the boat collision bulkhead floor center weight low barycenter saveing storage space easy to build economic So, I think that every solution should go in this direction. The matter is that building this way creates a potentially weak point in the boat. And it is an important point becose we are talking of a submerged area of the hull skin, in addiction where the drinkable water is. Even if you put a transparent lid for checking, you don't solve the problem. For two reasons: the first is that you see just the bottom (easy to protect) and not under the perimetral tank top (the weakest part), the second is that when you see the problem it's too late. The cancer has started and you don't know how to stop it becouse you don't have the access to work at it properly. I don't know the english word to say "a non accessible area" which has to be absolutely avoided on steel boats (like, for instance, a deep narrow welded anchorpeak). Stainless stiil tank top doesen't solve the problem. The perimetral top is safe but not the hull. The Tom solution "box type sides just a few inches tall eliminates the V that way" might be a good one but, structurally talking, I think it's not so strong and it's quite big job anyway. So what? Maybe the best solution is what the "theboilerflue" said. Put the fuel in. So, make the best to paint the tank as better as you can and then let the gasoline work as antirust. Something like the paraflu in the skeg. Of course we have to put stainless steel tanks for water below pilot house floor. Does all of this make sense? Alfredo| 22136|22111|2010-01-17 07:47:57|Tom Mann|Re: Water tank|Thats the world of boat building, so many pro's, con's, and what ifs. Bolt in stainless tanks are a good option if you have room and can handle the extra weight, they have to be built heavy enough to keep from flexing , if not they will crack, they still need access plates for clean out and pasivating after weld up. My next one will have built in water tanks, max capacity minumal space, What I am going to do is make the whole top removable, box sides no tight V. about a 3" lip around parimeter and across bafels, studs welded in from the bottom sides. Top plate unpainted stainless. Tom On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 11:57 PM, alfredo.nannetti@... < alfredo.nannetti@...> wrote: > Thank you very much to all of you about your suggeriments. > > My impression is that the final solution didn't come up yet. > Structural water tanks (bilge keels) are great for all of those reasons: > strenght of the boat > collision bulkhead > floor > center weight > low barycenter > saveing storage space > easy to build > economic > > So, I think that every solution should go in this direction. > > The matter is that building this way creates a potentially weak point in > the boat. And it is an important point becose we are talking of a submerged > area of the hull skin, in addiction where the drinkable water is. > Even if you put a transparent lid for checking, you don't solve the > problem. For two reasons: the first is that you see just the bottom (easy to > protect) and not under the perimetral tank top (the weakest part), the > second is that when you see the problem it's too late. The cancer has > started and you don't know how to stop it becouse you don't have the access > to work at it properly. I don't know the english word to say "a non > accessible area" which has to be absolutely avoided on steel boats (like, > for instance, a deep narrow welded anchorpeak). > Stainless stiil tank top doesen't solve the problem. The perimetral top is > safe but not the hull. > The Tom solution "box type sides just a few inches tall eliminates the V > that way" might be a good one but, structurally talking, I think it's not so > strong and it's quite big job anyway. > So what? > Maybe the best solution is what the "theboilerflue" said. > Put the fuel in. So, make the best to paint the tank as better as you can > and then let the gasoline work as antirust. Something like the paraflu in > the skeg. Of course we have to put stainless steel tanks for water below > pilot house floor. > Does all of this make sense? > Alfredo > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22137|22111|2010-01-17 09:43:41|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Water tank|What are folks' thoughts about flexible bladders in this location for water tankage?  Advantages: 1) solves the potable water-compatible paint problem Bent has commented on several times before; 2) no need for baffles, as there is no free surface; 3) no need for venting; 4) no sloshing noises (I expect; have no personal  experience). Disadvantage:  difficult, but not impossible to gauge how much water is left. The bladder could be covered by a suitably stiffened steel plate (forming the PH sole)  bolted to the transverse members supporting the keels (but make sure there is no chafe on the bladder!).  Put a plastic strum box in the lowest part of the center with a hose leading to the bilge pump.  To inspect the hull periodically, when the bladder is empty or nearly so, remove the top plate and peel one end of the bladder back and inspect; repeat for the other end.  If maintenance is needed, temporarily remove the bladder for excellent exposure.   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22138|22110|2010-01-17 12:53:59|Nick Arios|Re: Origami archive project|Ben, Great job, thanks for all your efforts for the group. Nick ________________________________ From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Sat, January 16, 2010 10:45:26 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami archive project On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 07:31:37PM -0500, Benjamin Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 05:13:24PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > > > Full off-line archive greatly simplified my search. Thanks again! > > You're welcome! I hope everyone finds it as handy as you have, and > meanwhile, we'll have a daily running backup of the group (that's the > next - and last - part of this project.) Which is now completed. The archive is up to date as of an hour or so ago; the automatic retrieval system will update it once a day. In theory, this thing should now run on rails: we'll have a running backup, just in case. We also have (I'm going to take a moment of pride in my own craftsmanship :) a pretty nice interface and a *very* fancy search engine. The only thing we can't really do with the archive is show everything arranged by threads - Yahoo stole that information from us. It's a header in the emails that each of us sent to the list, and it cannot be reconstructed from the Yahoo pages - and threading can't just be done by subject. I've managed to reconstruct pretty much everything else of importance, but that's lost. Suggestions for improvements are always welcome! > The Origami archive is now available for your reading pleasure at > http://okopnik. com/origami/ . -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22139|22111|2010-01-17 13:25:50|mauro gonzaga|Re: Water tank|It doesn't make sense at all, Alfredo. Tanks may be structural but the cover must be wide enough to enter to clean and paint. Do this way: Weld around all the periphery of the top a flat bar which will be the frame for the cover. Cut the cover with drilled holes for bolting all around but keep the diameter smaller e.g. 4 mm for 6 mm bolts. The cover shall have also a round hole ( 15 cm dia) were a small cover is bolted (tack weld nuts on inside of the cover for this round openings). Position the cover on the peripherical frame welded to the hull and drill holes (diameter 8 mm for 6 mm bolts) through the existing holes (the 4 mm ones). Then put rubber between cover and frame, enter into the holes through the 15 cm centre opening, the 6 mm bolts and from the outside tighten the nuts. The interior shall be painted with epoxy paint (easier than polyurethane), suitable for food (drinking water). Otherwise, after careful cleaning you may use the ship's system: a coat of cement liquid using a brush, it is cheap, simple, but it must be inspected and toched up or nenewed every year. The 15 cm round cover will be used to fix vent and intake connections outside. Insidde the intake connection shall be prolongated by a pipe till the bottom. This small cover may be used for inspection. Mauro --- On Sun, 1/17/10, alfredo.nannetti@... wrote: From: alfredo.nannetti@... Subject: Re:[origamiboats] Re: Water tank To: "origamiboats" Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 8:57 AM   Thank you very much to all of you about your suggeriments. My impression is that the final solution didn't come up yet. Structural water tanks (bilge keels) are great for all of those reasons: strenght of the boat collision bulkhead floor center weight low barycenter saveing storage space easy to build economic So, I think that every solution should go in this direction. The matter is that building this way creates a potentially weak point in the boat. And it is an important point becose we are talking of a submerged area of the hull skin, in addiction where the drinkable water is. Even if you put a transparent lid for checking, you don't solve the problem. For two reasons: the first is that you see just the bottom (easy to protect) and not under the perimetral tank top (the weakest part), the second is that when you see the problem it's too late. The cancer has started and you don't know how to stop it becouse you don't have the access to work at it properly. I don't know the english word to say "a non accessible area" which has to be absolutely avoided on steel boats (like, for instance, a deep narrow welded anchorpeak). Stainless stiil tank top doesen't solve the problem. The perimetral top is safe but not the hull. The Tom solution "box type sides just a few inches tall eliminates the V that way" might be a good one but, structurally talking, I think it's not so strong and it's quite big job anyway. So what? Maybe the best solution is what the "theboilerflue" said. Put the fuel in. So, make the best to paint the tank as better as you can and then let the gasoline work as antirust. Something like the paraflu in the skeg. Of course we have to put stainless steel tanks for water below pilot house floor. Does all of this make sense? Alfredo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22140|22111|2010-01-17 16:54:10|theboilerflue|Re: Water tank|I don't know why, if you're going to have two tanks why you wouldn't have them both for drinking water (and you could use them for washing dishes, shower ect.). Is spoiling of fresh water tanks an issue? I would imagine one would use the water before it spoils. Also keep in mind any tank under and pressure other than local atmospheric pressure will have to be built to take the expansion and contraction or else you'd end up with cracks. I personally would never keep my sewage on the boat I'd much rather flush it out into ocean, what else are you going to do with it? It's going to end up in the ocean in the long run anyway, even if you use a pump out station. And other than black water ie. sewage what other "grey" are you going to have? dish water? > May be it is just need to have two tanks. 1-st from SS for drinking water, 2-nd for "house" water (cleaning dishes, washing hands, shower, etc.) Smaller 1-st SS tank would be easier to keep under negative pressure - keeps water fresh 3-4 times longer than under atmosphere pressure. I do not know if it would be enough room to keep 1-st tank inside 2-nd (big) one. > > As I know, it is better to have 2 waste tanks for waste water too. One for "gray water", second for "black water" (sewage). "Black water" tank should be plastic to withstand very corrosive environment. Waste tanks are more important at the marinas or monitored waters, than in the ocean ;) > | 22141|22111|2010-01-17 17:05:38|theboilerflue|Re: Water tank|I think brents right about the dank, moist area under any fit-to-hull tanks, they seem like a bad idea, cause let be honest how often are you going take part a good section of your interior and pull the tanks to inspect the hull at least with the integral you can see the corrosion - and it can be gotten to it's just not easy, it involves fitting (as much of) your torso into the inspection port and reaching all the way to the end of the tank while basically upside down. Another reason I was so pleased to use the integral as a fuel tank instead of water was because: what kind of paint is really safe to keep your drinking water in? and it's much easier to paint if you're using all the same paint for the whole boat and don't have to worry about getting coal tar into ones water tank. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > Thank you very much to all of you about your suggeriments. > > My impression is that the final solution didn't come up yet. > Structural water tanks (bilge keels) are great for all of those reasons: > strenght of the boat > collision bulkhead > floor > center weight > low barycenter > saveing storage space > easy to build > economic > > So, I think that every solution should go in this direction. > > The matter is that building this way creates a potentially weak point in the boat. And it is an important point becose we are talking of a submerged area of the hull skin, in addiction where the drinkable water is. > Even if you put a transparent lid for checking, you don't solve the problem. For two reasons: the first is that you see just the bottom (easy to protect) and not under the perimetral tank top (the weakest part), the second is that when you see the problem it's too late. The cancer has started and you don't know how to stop it becouse you don't have the access to work at it properly. I don't know the english word to say "a non accessible area" which has to be absolutely avoided on steel boats (like, for instance, a deep narrow welded anchorpeak). > Stainless stiil tank top doesen't solve the problem. The perimetral top is safe but not the hull. > The Tom solution "box type sides just a few inches tall eliminates the V that way" might be a good one but, structurally talking, I think it's not so strong and it's quite big job anyway. > So what? > Maybe the best solution is what the "theboilerflue" said. > Put the fuel in. So, make the best to paint the tank as better as you can and then let the gasoline work as antirust. Something like the paraflu in the skeg. Of course we have to put stainless steel tanks for water below pilot house floor. > Does all of this make sense? > Alfredo > | 22142|22110|2010-01-17 17:21:46|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami archive project|On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 09:53:57AM -0800, Nick Arios wrote: > Ben, > > Great job, thanks for all your efforts for the group. You're welcome, Nick. I felt it was a jo worth doing. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22143|22143|2010-01-17 18:29:51|mickeyolaf|Radar|For those who have a radar purchase in their future there's an article in Cruising World this month on 18" radar. Price vs ability comparison.| 22144|22111|2010-01-17 19:37:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: Water tank|On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 09:53:39PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > I don't know why, if you're going to have two tanks why you wouldn't > have them both for drinking water (and you could use them for washing > dishes, shower ect.). Unfortunately, in some places, graywater is becoming a legal issue. Yes, it's all bull. Yes, it's a political ploy to make the politicians look like they're "protecting the citizens". Yes, it's all going to end up in the ocean anyway. The problem is that none of that matters when a water Nazi comes along and fines you $2500 (or, at their discretion, up to $25000) for "polluting". I *hate* having to store my sewage aboard. Sure, the composting head makes it easier, etc., but I'm carrying SEWAGE in my living space - something that is unsanitary, dangerous, pointless, and would be completely unnecessary if it wasn't for the politicians' games and lies. The ocean is not harmed by bodily wastes; it *is* harmed by the pollutants those same politicians blithely ignore because they've been paid off (and I don't care whether it's by cash bribes, political favors, or a future promise of reelection) to do so; I'm outraged to the limit by the fact that this is so. But I still do it, because the practicalities of life aboard in the US dictate that I have to. I hope, before I'm too old for it, to sail away to places where that's not the case. > Is spoiling of fresh water tanks an issue? I > would imagine one would use the water before it spoils. Heh. Haidan, when you cruise in warm waters, you'll need to get used to the slight taste of bleach, or maybe iodine in your water - or you'll have to get used to the *strong* taste of algae. You would not believe how quickly that stuff grows in your tank unless you take positive and constant measures (a capful of bleach for every 20 gallons) to prevent it. > I personally would never keep my sewage on > the boat I'd much rather flush it out into ocean, what else are you > going to do with it? It's going to end up in the ocean in the long run > anyway, even if you use a pump out station. And other than black water > ie. sewage what other "grey" are you going to have? dish water? Yep. That, and shower water, and anything else other than sewage that you flush overboard. I agree with you - it's the rankest craziness - but that's the world we live in, courtesy of the "bread and circuses" policies that are the way to political power these days. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22146|22110|2010-01-18 05:17:56|boatwayupnorth|Re: Origami archive project|Hi Ben and everybody else who joined hands, just wanted to say thanks too! You turned a rather nasty pissing contest into something really productive. Looking forward to download archive + search program! Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Nick Arios wrote: > > Ben, > > Great job, thanks for all your efforts for the group. > > Nick > > | 22147|22110|2010-01-18 13:07:11|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami archive project|On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 10:13:57AM -0000, boatwayupnorth wrote: > Hi Ben and everybody else who joined hands, > just wanted to say thanks too! You turned a rather nasty pissing > contest into something really productive. Looking forward to download > archive + search program! Both are now available. :) There's a downloadable text file, in the standard 'mbox' mail format, at http://okopnik.com/ori/origami_archive (~50MB and growing daily); there's also a nicely-searchable Web interface to the archive at http://okopnik.com/origami/ (updated daily.) As with any recently-completed project, we're now in the troubleshooting stage, so comments, suggestions, and ideas are welcome. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22148|22110|2010-01-18 13:14:28|edward|Re: Origami archive project|Hi Ben, Many thanks to you and those who helped. I have just tried it and it's really neat. Regards, Ted| 22149|22110|2010-01-18 14:13:51|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami archive project|On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 06:14:17PM -0000, edward wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > Many thanks to you and those who helped. I have just tried it and it's really neat. You're certainly welcome, Ted! Glad to see that folks are getting good use out of it. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22150|22111|2010-01-18 15:26:57|theboilerflue|Re: Water tank|> > Unfortunately, in some places, graywater is becoming a legal issue. How is this enforceable? you are allowed to pump water out of your boat aren't you, how do they tell if this water has been sullied or not? Or that you didn't dump this sullied water when you were out of the Black Water Nazi's jurisdiction. And for real grey water dumping is an issue? really, like dish water and shower water? Man they are really out to get you. > Heh. Haidan, when you cruise in warm waters, you'll need to get used to > the slight taste of bleach, or maybe iodine in your water - or you'll > have to get used to the *strong* taste of algae. You would not believe > how quickly that stuff grows in your tank unless you take positive and > constant measures (a capful of bleach for every 20 gallons) to prevent > it. > I didn't realize it'd grow that fast. bleach sounds kinda gross anybody ever try grapefruit seed extract in their water tanks it's supposed to be able to purify water and would at least taste better than bleach healthier too? Thanks a lot of all your work on the archiving now we just need some people to go through it all and compile it all into nice usable packets like "common screw ups" or in sections pertaining to specific parts of a boat like engine, keel cooling, rig, mast, hull, welding ect.....| 22151|22111|2010-01-18 16:02:17|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|"theboilerflue", There are several reasons to have 2 tanks for water: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > I don't know why, if you're going to have two tanks why you wouldn't have them both for drinking water (and you could use them for washing dishes, shower ect.). Is spoiling of fresh water tanks an issue? You put in both tanks drinking water anyway, but difference is the quality of the water. In SS small tank you keep water to drink and cook. Because it is SS, you do not need to put any coating inside the tank. Second (big tank) you use for anything else. Big tank could be "chlorinated", small tank could be kept under slight negative pressure (vacuum) for longer freshness of drinking water and natural taste. > I would imagine one would use the water before it spoils. Water stays fresh about 1 week under normal atmospheric pressure. 2-3 weeks under slight vacuum. On power boats, one can use ozone water disinfection unit, but it does require LOT of electricity - which is not suitable solution for sail boat. So, simple calculation - 5 knots under sail x 24 hr x 7 days = 840 miles range with "fresh" drinking water. With small tank ~2-3 time longer. > Also keep in mind any tank under and pressure other than local atmospheric pressure will have to be built to take the expansion and contraction or else you'd end up with cracks. Small tank should be INSIDE big tank, but not integrated to the hull (just have supports). No cracks, etc. Not very simple to do, but worth of it. > I personally would never keep my sewage on the boat I'd much rather flush it out into ocean, what else are you going to do with it? Some times you have to stay in port or marina. Local authority/harbor master will not allow you to dump everything you want into harbor's waters. You can do it of cause if you do not mind to pay big fines for that.| 22152|22111|2010-01-18 16:06:36|markh|Re: Water tank|To remove chlorine taste you can install a charcoal filtre such as "Rainfresh" in line-I've had the same one on my boat for years--I just take the element out if it is going to sit for awhile. www.rainfresh.ca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22153|22111|2010-01-18 16:56:47|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|Box sides leave two low points outside the box for water to puddle in without draining properly to the bilge sump. A mirror lowered in thru the inspection port gives full view of the tank top from the inside. I make the inspection port big enough to let you put your head in either side of the baffle and see every part of the tank . There is no such easy option for the space between a tank and the hull, which is someties filled with bilge water, and often damp. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > Thank you very much to all of you about your suggeriments. > > My impression is that the final solution didn't come up yet. > Structural water tanks (bilge keels) are great for all of those reasons: > strenght of the boat > collision bulkhead > floor > center weight > low barycenter > saveing storage space > easy to build > economic > > So, I think that every solution should go in this direction. > > The matter is that building this way creates a potentially weak point in the boat. And it is an important point becose we are talking of a submerged area of the hull skin, in addiction where the drinkable water is. > Even if you put a transparent lid for checking, you don't solve the problem. For two reasons: the first is that you see just the bottom (easy to protect) and not under the perimetral tank top (the weakest part), the second is that when you see the problem it's too late. The cancer has started and you don't know how to stop it becouse you don't have the access to work at it properly. I don't know the english word to say "a non accessible area" which has to be absolutely avoided on steel boats (like, for instance, a deep narrow welded anchorpeak). > Stainless stiil tank top doesen't solve the problem. The perimetral top is safe but not the hull. > The Tom solution "box type sides just a few inches tall eliminates the V that way" might be a good one but, structurally talking, I think it's not so strong and it's quite big job anyway. > So what? > Maybe the best solution is what the "theboilerflue" said. > Put the fuel in. So, make the best to paint the tank as better as you can and then let the gasoline work as antirust. Something like the paraflu in the skeg. Of course we have to put stainless steel tanks for water below pilot house floor. > Does all of this make sense? > Alfredo > | 22154|22111|2010-01-18 17:03:26|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|On a twin keeler, you still need the structural strength to support the keels .Without the tank, you need the transverse angles running from chine to centreline, which is nowhere near as strong as the tank. Your bladder would have to lie accross the tops of these, which are chafe points , especially when the bladder is only partially filled. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > What are folks' thoughts about flexible bladders in this location for water tankage?  Advantages: 1) solves the potable water-compatible paint problem Bent has commented on several times before; 2) no need for baffles, as there is no free surface; 3) no need for venting; 4) no sloshing noises (I expect; have no personal  experience). Disadvantage:  difficult, but not impossible to gauge how much water is left. The bladder could be covered by a suitably stiffened steel plate (forming the PH sole)  bolted to the transverse members supporting the keels (but make sure there is no chafe on the bladder!).  Put a plastic strum box in the lowest part of the center with a hose leading to the bilge pump.  To inspect the hull periodically, when the bladder is empty or nearly so, remove the top plate and peel one end of the bladder back and inspect; repeat for the other end.  If maintenance is needed, temporarily remove the bladder for excellent exposure.   > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22155|22111|2010-01-18 17:11:50|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|When I called the Canadian coastguard I asked how they planned to enforce the holding tank laws, given that in Canada , under the charter of rights, they had to have a search warrant, signed by a judge, to even legaly enter the living space on a boat. Entering boat without a search warrant is a criminal offence in Canada. They said "Actually it's totally unenforceable" . In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > Unfortunately, in some places, graywater is becoming a legal issue. > > How is this enforceable? you are allowed to pump water out of your boat aren't you, how do they tell if this water has been sullied or not? Or that you didn't dump this sullied water when you were out of the Black Water Nazi's jurisdiction. And for real grey water dumping is an issue? really, like dish water and shower water? Man they are really out to get you. > > > Heh. Haidan, when you cruise in warm waters, you'll need to get used to > > the slight taste of bleach, or maybe iodine in your water - or you'll > > have to get used to the *strong* taste of algae. You would not believe > > how quickly that stuff grows in your tank unless you take positive and > > constant measures (a capful of bleach for every 20 gallons) to prevent > > it. > > > I didn't realize it'd grow that fast. bleach sounds kinda gross anybody ever try grapefruit seed extract in their water tanks it's supposed to be able to purify water and would at least taste better than bleach healthier too? > > Thanks a lot of all your work on the archiving now we just need some people to go through it all and compile it all into nice usable packets like "common screw ups" or in sections pertaining to specific parts of a boat like engine, keel cooling, rig, mast, hull, welding ect..... > | 22156|22111|2010-01-18 17:17:53|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|Simple solution for Canadians . Stay out of the US. Lately in the name of "Security" the US has been stealing passports at the border, then sending us home, where the Canadian government" At the request of Harper's "Lover boy" Uncle Sam, has then accused us of trying to enter Canada without a passport. Not worth the hassle --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 09:53:39PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > I don't know why, if you're going to have two tanks why you wouldn't > > have them both for drinking water (and you could use them for washing > > dishes, shower ect.). > > Unfortunately, in some places, graywater is becoming a legal issue. > > Yes, it's all bull. Yes, it's a political ploy to make the politicians > look like they're "protecting the citizens". Yes, it's all going to end > up in the ocean anyway. The problem is that none of that matters when a > water Nazi comes along and fines you $2500 (or, at their discretion, up > to $25000) for "polluting". > > I *hate* having to store my sewage aboard. Sure, the composting head > makes it easier, etc., but I'm carrying SEWAGE in my living space - > something that is unsanitary, dangerous, pointless, and would be > completely unnecessary if it wasn't for the politicians' games and lies. > The ocean is not harmed by bodily wastes; it *is* harmed by the > pollutants those same politicians blithely ignore because they've been > paid off (and I don't care whether it's by cash bribes, political > favors, or a future promise of reelection) to do so; I'm outraged to the > limit by the fact that this is so. > > But I still do it, because the practicalities of life aboard in the US > dictate that I have to. I hope, before I'm too old for it, to sail away > to places where that's not the case. > > > Is spoiling of fresh water tanks an issue? I > > would imagine one would use the water before it spoils. > > Heh. Haidan, when you cruise in warm waters, you'll need to get used to > the slight taste of bleach, or maybe iodine in your water - or you'll > have to get used to the *strong* taste of algae. You would not believe > how quickly that stuff grows in your tank unless you take positive and > constant measures (a capful of bleach for every 20 gallons) to prevent > it. > > > I personally would never keep my sewage on > > the boat I'd much rather flush it out into ocean, what else are you > > going to do with it? It's going to end up in the ocean in the long run > > anyway, even if you use a pump out station. And other than black water > > ie. sewage what other "grey" are you going to have? dish water? > > Yep. That, and shower water, and anything else other than sewage that > you flush overboard. I agree with you - it's the rankest craziness - but > that's the world we live in, courtesy of the "bread and circuses" > policies that are the way to political power these days. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22157|22111|2010-01-18 17:43:10|ric|Re: Water tank|Can some one please explain to me what by definition is "fresh water". What are the problems of drinking "non fresh water". Seems I have been doing that most of my life. have fun --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Water stays fresh about 1 week under normal atmospheric pressure. 2-3 weeks under slight vacuum. On power boats, one can use ozone water disinfection unit, but it does require LOT of electricity - which is not suitable solution for sail boat. > | 22158|22111|2010-01-18 20:00:43|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Water tank|Ben, We should try not to distort the facts, like those who are distorting the facts. I work in the wastewater industry. Human wastes going directly into the ocean are harmful, period. So sending your waste ashore is in fact better. Some cities in the US discharge sewage water in to the ocean that is polluted, but MOST do not. I agree completely that private boats contribute so little as to be non-issue. I still wouldn't swim any place where all the boats are discharging overboard, and I'll bet you wouldn't either. I also like not having to defend what I do while telling somebody they are doing something wrong! Chlorinate your water tanks, carbon filters do a great job of removing chlorine from the water you use. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Water tank > On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 09:53:39PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: >> I don't know why, if you're going to have two tanks why you wouldn't >> have them both for drinking water (and you could use them for washing >> dishes, shower ect.). > > Unfortunately, in some places, graywater is becoming a legal issue. > > Yes, it's all bull. Yes, it's a political ploy to make the politicians > look like they're "protecting the citizens". Yes, it's all going to end > up in the ocean anyway. The problem is that none of that matters when a > water Nazi comes along and fines you $2500 (or, at their discretion, up > to $25000) for "polluting". > > I *hate* having to store my sewage aboard. Sure, the composting head > makes it easier, etc., but I'm carrying SEWAGE in my living space - > something that is unsanitary, dangerous, pointless, and would be > completely unnecessary if it wasn't for the politicians' games and lies. > The ocean is not harmed by bodily wastes; it *is* harmed by the > pollutants those same politicians blithely ignore because they've been > paid off (and I don't care whether it's by cash bribes, political > favors, or a future promise of reelection) to do so; I'm outraged to the > limit by the fact that this is so. > > But I still do it, because the practicalities of life aboard in the US > dictate that I have to. I hope, before I'm too old for it, to sail away > to places where that's not the case. > >> Is spoiling of fresh water tanks an issue? I >> would imagine one would use the water before it spoils. > > Heh. Haidan, when you cruise in warm waters, you'll need to get used to > the slight taste of bleach, or maybe iodine in your water - or you'll > have to get used to the *strong* taste of algae. You would not believe > how quickly that stuff grows in your tank unless you take positive and > constant measures (a capful of bleach for every 20 gallons) to prevent > it. > >> I personally would never keep my sewage on >> the boat I'd much rather flush it out into ocean, what else are you >> going to do with it? It's going to end up in the ocean in the long run >> anyway, even if you use a pump out station. And other than black water >> ie. sewage what other "grey" are you going to have? dish water? > > Yep. That, and shower water, and anything else other than sewage that > you flush overboard. I agree with you - it's the rankest craziness - but > that's the world we live in, courtesy of the "bread and circuses" > policies that are the way to political power these days. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22159|22111|2010-01-18 21:33:19|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|It looks like you were drinking "fresh water" all your life. Your stomach will recognize it (if you do not have iron stomach). "Non fresh water" taste, smells and looks differently. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > Can some one please explain to me what by definition is "fresh water". > What are the problems of drinking "non fresh water". > Seems I have been doing that most of my life. > > have fun | 22160|22111|2010-01-18 22:11:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: Water tank|On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 01:06:32PM -0800, markh wrote: > To remove chlorine taste you can install a charcoal filtre such as > "Rainfresh" in line-I've had the same one on my boat for years--I just > take the element out if it is going to sit for awhile. > www.rainfresh.ca I just use a regular store-bought filter holder (~$17) with an activated-charcoal insert (~$11 every 6-8 months.) My wife is _very_ sensitive to water that's got an off taste, but this gadget kept her happy even in St. Augustine, where the water was loaded with sulfur. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22161|22111|2010-01-18 22:48:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Water tank|On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 08:23:04PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, in some places, graywater is becoming a legal issue. > > How is this enforceable? I haven't had to deal with it yet, but I'd imagine it would be much like sewage: they'll check to see if have a graywater tank, if all your sinks and shower drains are plumbed into it, and that all your valves are locked in the "to tank" position. Any failure means a big ticket. It hasn't happened yet in most places, but it's starting to, Ohio, for example, has one in place: "Except on Lake Erie, the Muskingum River and the Ohio River, no person shall launch, moor, dock, operate, or permit to be operated any vessel with a sink, toilet, or sanitary system capable of discharging urine, fecal matter, contents of a chemical commode, kitchen wastes, laundry wastes, slop sink drainage, or other household wastes into the waters in this state." A number of other states do as well. > Thanks a lot of all your work on the archiving Thanks so much for your own part in it! > now we just need some > people to go through it all and compile it all into nice usable > packets like "common screw ups" or in sections pertaining to specific > parts of a boat like engine, keel cooling, rig, mast, hull, welding > ect..... That search engine is accepting applications as we speak. :) Try 'brentswain' in the 'From' field and 'screwup*' or 'screwup* mistake*' in 'Body'; that'll give you a good start. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22162|22111|2010-01-19 01:22:36|ric|Re: Water tank|Sorry Wild, that just does not make sense. I have lived out of rain water tanks that have gone a year without top up and the water tastes just fine. I have used water out of boat tanks that have not been pressed for at least 6 months and they taste just fine. Maybe many years roughing it in 3rd world countries has given me an iron stomach. So what happens to water after 2-3 weeks that makes it 'not fresh'? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > It looks like you were drinking "fresh water" all your life. Your stomach will recognize it (if you do not have iron stomach). "Non fresh water" taste, smells and looks differently. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > Can some one please explain to me what by definition is "fresh water". > > What are the problems of drinking "non fresh water". > > Seems I have been doing that most of my life. > > > > have fun > | 22163|22111|2010-01-19 01:47:50|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|Ric, Rain water is different. It is distilled water. If you collect it after your "rain collection" system is "flashed" by the rain, it is more safe than faucet water. Just take the water from faucet, keep it in open container for 2 days, than put it in thermos, close the lid tight, keep it there for 2-3 weeks, open thermos and smell it, taste, etc. Feel the difference. Basically, bacterias will do all the work to spoil the water. Do another experiment. Boil the water, immediately put it in thermos, close the lid tight. Keep it there for 2-3 weeks. Taste it after that time - water still "fresh". --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > Sorry Wild, that just does not make sense. > I have lived out of rain water tanks that have gone a year without top up and the water tastes just fine. > I have used water out of boat tanks that have not been pressed for at least 6 months and they taste just fine. > > Maybe many years roughing it in 3rd world countries has given me an iron stomach. > > So what happens to water after 2-3 weeks that makes it 'not fresh'? | 22164|22111|2010-01-19 02:01:47|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|In California, you will not be able to get "live aboard" slip in the marina, if you do not have waste tank. Pumping tanks is free in California, so you have no excuse not to pump your tank and dump waste water into the harbor. Yes, I know, many people wash dishes just with plain water... Take shower without soap.... So, such rules made for people who do not do it, and use chemicals and soap. ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 08:23:04PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > Unfortunately, in some places, graywater is becoming a legal issue. > > > > How is this enforceable? > > I haven't had to deal with it yet, but I'd imagine it would be much like > sewage: they'll check to see if have a graywater tank, if all your sinks > and shower drains are plumbed into it, and that all your valves are > locked in the "to tank" position. Any failure means a big ticket. | 22165|22111|2010-01-19 03:43:33|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Water tank|Yes, it seems to be the best. It holds all Brent solutions, you use only one tipe of paint, you have the strenght and it should be corrosion free. However I wander what happen when the boat is heeling on one side and the engine is on. Is the sucking fuel pipe always sunk? Is there any problem of intake air? Does anybody know how many liters of fuel is holded on the 31' bottom tank? alfredo > I think brents right about the dank, moist area under any fit-to-hull tanks, they seem like a bad idea, cause let be honest how often are you going take part a good section of your interior and pull the tanks to inspect the hull at least with the integral you can see the corrosion - and it can be gotten to it's just not easy, it involves fitting (as much of) your torso into the inspection port and reaching all the way to the end of the tank while basically upside down. Another reason I was so pleased to use the integral as a fuel tank instead of water was because: what kind of paint is really safe to keep your drinking water in? and it's much easier to paint if you're using all the same paint for the whole boat and don't have to worry about getting coal tar into ones water tank. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > > > Thank you very much to all of you about your suggeriments. > > > > My impression is that the final solution didn't come up yet. > > Structural water tanks (bilge keels) are great for all of those reasons: > > strenght of the boat > > collision bulkhead > > floor > > center weight > > low barycenter > > saveing storage space > > easy to build > > economic > > > > So, I think that every solution should go in this direction. > > > > The matter is that building this way creates a potentially weak point in the boat. And it is an important point becose we are talking of a submerged area of the hull skin, in addiction where the drinkable water is. > > Even if you put a transparent lid for checking, you don't solve the problem. For two reasons: the first is that you see just the bottom (easy to protect) and not under the perimetral tank top (the weakest part), the second is that when you see the problem it's too late. The cancer has started and you don't know how to stop it becouse you don't have the access to work at it properly. I don't know the english word to say "a non accessible area" which has to be absolutely avoided on steel boats (like, for instance, a deep narrow welded anchorpeak). > > Stainless stiil tank top doesen't solve the problem. The perimetral top is safe but not the hull. > > The Tom solution "box type sides just a few inches tall eliminates the V that way" might be a good one but, structurally talking, I think it's not so strong and it's quite big job anyway. > > So what? > > Maybe the best solution is what the "theboilerflue" said. > > Put the fuel in. So, make the best to paint the tank as better as you can and then let the gasoline work as antirust. Something like the paraflu in the skeg. Of course we have to put stainless steel tanks for water below pilot house floor. > > Does all of this make sense? > > Alfredo > > > > > | 22166|22111|2010-01-19 03:52:41|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Water tank|Yes, that suonds to me a good solution. Only one problem. It takes time. I always try to simplify evrything for the construction becouse building a boat is always a big amount of time and effort, anyway. Minimize works is the first solution to me. alfredo > It doesn't make sense at all, Alfredo. > Tanks may be structural but the cover must be wide enough to enter to clean and paint. Do this way: Weld around all the periphery of the top a flat bar which will be the frame for the cover. Cut the cover with drilled holes for bolting all around but keep the diameter smaller e.g. 4 mm for 6 mm bolts. The cover shall have also a round hole ( 15 cm dia) were a small cover is bolted (tack weld nuts on inside of the cover for this round openings). Position the cover on the peripherical frame welded to the hull and drill holes (diameter 8 mm for 6 mm bolts) through the existing holes (the 4 mm ones). Then put rubber between cover and frame, enter into the holes through the 15 cm centre opening, the 6 mm bolts and from the outside tighten the nuts. The interior shall be painted with epoxy paint (easier than polyurethane), suitable for food (drinking water). Otherwise, after careful cleaning you may use the ship's system: a coat of cement liquid using a brush, > it is cheap, simple, but it must be inspected and toched up or nenewed every year. The 15 cm round cover will be used to fix vent and intake connections outside. Insidde the intake connection shall be prolongated by a pipe till the bottom. This small cover may be used for inspection. > Mauro > > > --- On Sun, 1/17/10, alfredo.nannetti@... wrote: > > From: alfredo.nannetti@... > Subject: Re:[origamiboats] Re: Water tank > To: "origamiboats" > Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 8:57 AM > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much to all of you about your suggeriments. > > > > My impression is that the final solution didn't come up yet. > > Structural water tanks (bilge keels) are great for all of those reasons: > > strenght of the boat > > collision bulkhead > > floor > > center weight > > low barycenter > > saveing storage space > > easy to build > > economic > > > > So, I think that every solution should go in this direction. > > > > The matter is that building this way creates a potentially weak point in the boat. And it is an important point becose we are talking of a submerged area of the hull skin, in addiction where the drinkable water is. > > Even if you put a transparent lid for checking, you don't solve the problem. For two reasons: the first is that you see just the bottom (easy to protect) and not under the perimetral tank top (the weakest part), the second is that when you see the problem it's too late. The cancer has started and you don't know how to stop it becouse you don't have the access to work at it properly. I don't know the english word to say "a non accessible area" which has to be absolutely avoided on steel boats (like, for instance, a deep narrow welded anchorpeak). > > Stainless stiil tank top doesen't solve the problem. The perimetral top is safe but not the hull. > > The Tom solution "box type sides just a few inches tall eliminates the V that way" might be a good one but, structurally talking, I think it's not so strong and it's quite big job anyway. > > So what? > > Maybe the best solution is what the "theboilerflue" said. > > Put the fuel in. So, make the best to paint the tank as better as you can and then let the gasoline work as antirust. Something like the paraflu in the skeg. Of course we have to put stainless steel tanks for water below pilot house floor. > > Does all of this make sense? > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 22167|22111|2010-01-19 09:40:33|Tom Mann|Re: Water tank|Wild What if the water is not in a sealed container? and sloshing through baffles? On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 10:46 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > Ric, > > Rain water is different. It is distilled water. If you collect it after > your "rain collection" system is "flashed" by the rain, it is more safe than > faucet water. > > Just take the water from faucet, keep it in open container for 2 days, than > put it in thermos, close the lid tight, keep it there for 2-3 weeks, open > thermos and smell it, taste, etc. Feel the difference. > > Basically, bacterias will do all the work to spoil the water. > > Do another experiment. Boil the water, immediately put it in thermos, close > the lid tight. Keep it there for 2-3 weeks. Taste it after that time - water > still "fresh". > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > Sorry Wild, that just does not make sense. > > I have lived out of rain water tanks that have gone a year without top up > and the water tastes just fine. > > I have used water out of boat tanks that have not been pressed for at > least 6 months and they taste just fine. > > > > Maybe many years roughing it in 3rd world countries has given me an iron > stomach. > > > > So what happens to water after 2-3 weeks that makes it 'not fresh'? > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22168|22111|2010-01-19 10:03:24|James Pronk|Re: Water tank|Has any one tried oregano oil in there water tanks? I know it has been used in India for centuries in open cisterns? I have used it for years when traveling. I take a couple of drops every day. I have traveled with friends who wouldn't, ate the same food then cared them to the hospital a couple of days later. James --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Tom Mann wrote: From: Tom Mann Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Water tank To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 9:40 AM   Wild What if the water is not in a sealed container? and sloshing through baffles? On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 10:46 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > Ric, > > Rain water is different. It is distilled water. If you collect it after > your "rain collection" system is "flashed" by the rain, it is more safe than > faucet water. > > Just take the water from faucet, keep it in open container for 2 days, than > put it in thermos, close the lid tight, keep it there for 2-3 weeks, open > thermos and smell it, taste, etc. Feel the difference. > > Basically, bacterias will do all the work to spoil the water. > > Do another experiment. Boil the water, immediately put it in thermos, close > the lid tight. Keep it there for 2-3 weeks. Taste it after that time - water > still "fresh". > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "ric" wrote: > > > > Sorry Wild, that just does not make sense. > > I have lived out of rain water tanks that have gone a year without top up > and the water tastes just fine. > > I have used water out of boat tanks that have not been pressed for at > least 6 months and they taste just fine. > > > > Maybe many years roughing it in 3rd world countries has given me an iron > stomach. > > > > So what happens to water after 2-3 weeks that makes it 'not fresh'? > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22169|22169|2010-01-19 10:21:58|jpronk1|Anchor Winch Handle|I was just looking in the files to see how long the handles are. Is 24" about right?| 22170|22169|2010-01-19 12:08:37|Carl Anderson|Re: Anchor Winch Handle|Depends on how tall you are (I stand up for more leverage). Remember that it is always easier to cut off a little than weld a little on! Carl sv-mom.com jpronk1 wrote: > > > I was just looking in the files to see how long the handles are. > Is 24" about right? > > | 22171|22111|2010-01-19 14:04:27|Gord Schnell|Re: Water tank|My Thoughts! Spend the time now, while your building, so you don't spend your time and money in some remote tropical anchorage, fixing things that shouldn't NEED fixing. Gord On 19-Jan-10, at 12:52 AM, alfredo.nannetti@... wrote: > Yes, that suonds to me a good solution. > Only one problem. It takes time. I always try to simplify evrything > for the construction becouse building a boat is always a big amount > of time and effort, anyway. > Minimize works is the first solution to me. > alfredo > > > It doesn't make sense at all, Alfredo. > > Tanks may be structural but the cover must be wide enough to enter > to clean and paint. Do this way: Weld around all the periphery of > the top a flat bar which will be the frame for the cover. Cut the > cover with drilled holes for bolting all around but keep the > diameter smaller e.g. 4 mm for 6 mm bolts. The cover shall have also > a round hole ( 15 cm dia) were a small cover is bolted (tack weld > nuts on inside of the cover for this round openings). Position the > cover on the peripherical frame welded to the hull and drill holes > (diameter 8 mm for 6 mm bolts) through the existing holes (the 4 mm > ones). Then put rubber between cover and frame, enter into the holes > through the 15 cm centre opening, the 6 mm bolts and from the > outside tighten the nuts. The interior shall be painted with epoxy > paint (easier than polyurethane), suitable for food (drinking > water). Otherwise, after careful cleaning you may use the ship's > system: a coat of cement liquid using a brush, > > it is cheap, simple, but it must be inspected and toched up or > nenewed every year. The 15 cm round cover will be used to fix vent > and intake connections outside. Insidde the intake connection shall > be prolongated by a pipe till the bottom. This small cover may be > used for inspection. > > Mauro > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/17/10, alfredo.nannetti@... > wrote: > > > > From: alfredo.nannetti@... > > Subject: Re:[origamiboats] Re: Water tank > > To: "origamiboats" > > Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 8:57 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much to all of you about your suggeriments. > > > > > > > > My impression is that the final solution didn't come up yet. > > > > Structural water tanks (bilge keels) are great for all of those > reasons: > > > > strenght of the boat > > > > collision bulkhead > > > > floor > > > > center weight > > > > low barycenter > > > > saveing storage space > > > > easy to build > > > > economic > > > > > > > > So, I think that every solution should go in this direction. > > > > > > > > The matter is that building this way creates a potentially weak > point in the boat. And it is an important point becose we are > talking of a submerged area of the hull skin, in addiction where the > drinkable water is. > > > > Even if you put a transparent lid for checking, you don't solve > the problem. For two reasons: the first is that you see just the > bottom (easy to protect) and not under the perimetral tank top (the > weakest part), the second is that when you see the problem it's too > late. The cancer has started and you don't know how to stop it > becouse you don't have the access to work at it properly. I don't > know the english word to say "a non accessible area" which has to be > absolutely avoided on steel boats (like, for instance, a deep narrow > welded anchorpeak). > > > > Stainless stiil tank top doesen't solve the problem. The > perimetral top is safe but not the hull. > > > > The Tom solution "box type sides just a few inches tall eliminates > the V that way" might be a good one but, structurally talking, I > think it's not so strong and it's quite big job anyway. > > > > So what? > > > > Maybe the best solution is what the "theboilerflue" said. > > > > Put the fuel in. So, make the best to paint the tank as better as > you can and then let the gasoline work as antirust. Something like > the paraflu in the skeg. Of course we have to put stainless steel > tanks for water below pilot house floor. > > > > Does all of this make sense? > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22172|22111|2010-01-19 14:05:36|theboilerflue|the tank|Maybe the tap water is more fresh here in canada but I've been using tap water for the last 6-7 months now out of my stainless tanks and have only filled them twice so essentially I've been drinking and cooking with 12 week old un-freshilized tap water and for the last stint the boat has been a toasty 25-30 degrees (have to make use of the power I'm paying for) I use salt water for everything but cooking and drinking and I take showers on land where I also take dumps, in fact I have yet to take a dump in my boat, If I were out in the middle of nowhere it'd be a different story but in a populated area I wouldn't be letting some logs float around, that's gross I live in those waters, and it's not bad for the ocean but rather for people (to be honest mainly me). If I were somewhere whereas they told me I couldn't use my head, I'd use a bucket - that is still legal in the states isn't it? So these state laws about soiling the ocean with my food scrapings, where does the state end is it a 3 mile limit thing or does it extend farther. If fact how is the law "organized" in the states in respect to boats I'm sure it's a total mess with a billion different police factions but for some one who's planning on spending some time down that way (I know brent, yes I'm a masochist and I'll weld my passport to my person) but in the spirit of hopefully avoiding any problems where do they roam so to speak, their must be the coast guard who handle all US waters and the state police who handle what ever the jurisdiction of the state is and the city cops, do they have county marine police as well? And I admit for someone with a lot more ties to the states a big ticket might be an issue but they would really have a hard time making any foreign boat pay it, especially if it's state law - unless of course the gestapo shows up to seize one's boat, it isn't that bad yet is it? Wild (insert real name here), If you're going to the trouble to make a large tank with a smaller stainless tank inside it why don't you just spend the extra 100-200 bucks and make up a nice big stainless tank that you could keep all the water in drinkable, otherwise you'd be carrying a hell of a lot excess weight in the boat that you could very easily do with out and use sea water for.| 22173|22111|2010-01-19 14:08:52|theboilerflue|Re: Water tank|I have a day 12 gallon day tank hung off the underside of my cockpit which gravity feeds in the engine so don't have to worry about sucking fuel out of the main fuel tank while healed also most of the time when you're running the engine you aren't healed right over unless you're motor sailing. The fuel pickup in my tank is a 1/2" pipe that extends down to the back edge of the tank so it leaves the bottom-middle depression for water/gunk accumulation so i think to be sucking air the tank would have to be pretty close to the level where one wouldn't want to use the fuel in the tank anyway due to contamination. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > Yes, it seems to be the best. > It holds all Brent solutions, you use only one tipe of paint, > you have the strenght and it should be corrosion free. > > However I wander what happen when the boat is heeling on one side and the engine is on. Is the sucking fuel pipe always sunk? Is there any problem of intake air? > > Does anybody know how many liters of fuel is holded on the 31' bottom tank? > > alfredo > > > > > > I think brents right about the dank, moist area under any fit-to-hull tanks, they seem like a bad idea, cause let be honest how often are you going take part a good section of your interior and pull the tanks to inspect the hull at least with the integral you can see the corrosion - and it can be gotten to it's just not easy, it involves fitting (as much of) your torso into the inspection port and reaching all the way to the end of the tank while basically upside down. Another reason I was so pleased to use the integral as a fuel tank instead of water was because: what kind of paint is really safe to keep your drinking water in? and it's much easier to paint if you're using all the same paint for the whole boat and don't have to worry about getting coal tar into ones water tank. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > Thank you very much to all of you about your suggeriments. > > > > > > My impression is that the final solution didn't come up yet. > > > Structural water tanks (bilge keels) are great for all of those reasons: > > > strenght of the boat > > > collision bulkhead > > > floor > > > center weight > > > low barycenter > > > saveing storage space > > > easy to build > > > economic > > > > > > So, I think that every solution should go in this direction. > > > > > > The matter is that building this way creates a potentially weak point in the boat. And it is an important point becose we are talking of a submerged area of the hull skin, in addiction where the drinkable water is. > > > Even if you put a transparent lid for checking, you don't solve the problem. For two reasons: the first is that you see just the bottom (easy to protect) and not under the perimetral tank top (the weakest part), the second is that when you see the problem it's too late. The cancer has started and you don't know how to stop it becouse you don't have the access to work at it properly. I don't know the english word to say "a non accessible area" which has to be absolutely avoided on steel boats (like, for instance, a deep narrow welded anchorpeak). > > > Stainless stiil tank top doesen't solve the problem. The perimetral top is safe but not the hull. > > > The Tom solution "box type sides just a few inches tall eliminates the V that way" might be a good one but, structurally talking, I think it's not so strong and it's quite big job anyway. > > > So what? > > > Maybe the best solution is what the "theboilerflue" said. > > > Put the fuel in. So, make the best to paint the tank as better as you can and then let the gasoline work as antirust. Something like the paraflu in the skeg. Of course we have to put stainless steel tanks for water below pilot house floor. > > > Does all of this make sense? > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > > > | 22174|22111|2010-01-19 14:15:59|theboilerflue|Re: Water tank|Yeah that's great question anybody know how much fuel my tank will carry on a 36'? I've haven't used it yet and it's such a dynamic funny shape I don't think my estimations are very close. > Does anybody know how many liters of fuel is holded on the 31' bottom tank? > > alfredo > | 22175|22169|2010-01-19 14:27:12|theboilerflue|Re: Anchor Winch Handle|Mine's about 2 1/2 - 3 feet but I'm tall mainly that's what I had available at the time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > I was just looking in the files to see how long the handles are. > Is 24" about right? > | 22176|22111|2010-01-19 15:51:01|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|In Canada, it's illegal for them to enter your living quarters on your boat without a search warrant, unless you are dense enough to invite them. So they can't legally check to see if you have a holding tank of any kind. When the first explorers came to the east coast, the fish were so thick that they almost stopped the ships dead in their tracks. They had only to lower baskets over the side to bring them up filled with fish. When the passenger pidgeons migrated, they left a layer of shit seven inches deep. The streams in spawning season were so thick with salmon you could almost walk across on their backs. The buffalo herds were 200 miles across . In 1870, Wyatt Earp described a buffalo herd on the move. He said it took them nine days to pass a given point. None of these critters had holding tanks, but the environment was in great shape. Have we improved the environment since then? When I pumped my head in the tropics the fish went into a recycling feeding frenzy and none was left in a minute or two. They tell us we should add chlorine or formaldehyde to make it more environmentally friendly. I wonder if the fish would agree. In Vancouver all the storm drains are drained by the same pipes as the sewers . So in heavy rain, there is zero sewage treatment, as nothing could handle the volume. In Nanaimo they are asking us to believe that a city of roughly 100,000, with only primary treatment, puts less in the ocean than a half dozen boats in the harbour in winter. Do you feel insulted by their suggestion that we are that dense? Do you plan to patronize such insulting assholes, by spending money in Nanaimo this summer? One of the reasons China has endured so long when so many civilizations have had such a short life, is they take the nutrients out of the soil, use them, then put them back on the land, whereas we take the nutrients out of the soil, use them then throw them in the oceans. Composing heads eliminate this problem. I dump mine back in the bush where possible. Trees love it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 08:23:04PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > Unfortunately, in some places, graywater is becoming a legal issue. > > > > How is this enforceable? > > I haven't had to deal with it yet, but I'd imagine it would be much like > sewage: they'll check to see if have a graywater tank, if all your sinks > and shower drains are plumbed into it, and that all your valves are > locked in the "to tank" position. Any failure means a big ticket. > > It hasn't happened yet in most places, but it's starting to, Ohio, for > example, has one in place: > 870 Wyatt Earp descibed a buffm nine days to pass a given point.alo herd on the move he said iut took them nine days top pass a givenpoint. None of htese critters had holding tanks, but the environment was in great shape. > "Except on Lake Erie, the Muskingum River and the Ohio River, no person > shall launch, moor, dock, operate, or permit to be operated any vessel > with a sink, toilet, or sanitary system capable of discharging urine, > fecal matter, contents of a chemical commode, kitchen wastes, laundry > wastes, slop sink drainage, or other household wastes into the waters in > this state." > > A number of other states do as well. > > > Thanks a lot of all your work on the archiving > > Thanks so much for your own part in it! > > > now we just need some > > people to go through it all and compile it all into nice usable > > packets like "common screw ups" or in sections pertaining to specific > > parts of a boat like engine, keel cooling, rig, mast, hull, welding > > ect..... > > That search engine is accepting applications as we speak. :) Try > 'brentswain' in the 'From' field and 'screwup*' or 'screwup* mistake*' > in 'Body'; that'll give you a good start. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22177|22111|2010-01-19 15:55:10|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|If you keep the sun and UV out of rainwater, it will keep along time I had black and blue baja bags for water the last time I went south, Water in the black bag stayed fresh the whole time , but water in the blue bags got a bit of UV sunlight and went swampy. I have since acquired black plastic gerry cans for UV free water storage on deck. Scepter makes them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > Sorry Wild, that just does not make sense. > I have lived out of rain water tanks that have gone a year without top up and the water tastes just fine. > I have used water out of boat tanks that have not been pressed for at least 6 months and they taste just fine. > > Maybe many years roughing it in 3rd world countries has given me an iron stomach. > > So what happens to water after 2-3 weeks that makes it 'not fresh'? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > It looks like you were drinking "fresh water" all your life. Your stomach will recognize it (if you do not have iron stomach). "Non fresh water" taste, smells and looks differently. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > > > Can some one please explain to me what by definition is "fresh water". > > > What are the problems of drinking "non fresh water". > > > Seems I have been doing that most of my life. > > > > > > have fun > > > | 22178|22111|2010-01-19 15:55:34|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|People pay more in Marina fees than my total cost of living. Staying out of marinas lets me cruise full time with the money saved. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > In California, you will not be able to get "live aboard" slip in the marina, if you do not have waste tank. Pumping tanks is free in California, so you have no excuse not to pump your tank and dump waste water into the harbor. > > Yes, I know, many people wash dishes just with plain water... Take shower without soap.... So, such rules made for people who do not do it, and use chemicals and soap. ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 08:23:04PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, in some places, graywater is becoming a legal issue. > > > > > > How is this enforceable? > > > > I haven't had to deal with it yet, but I'd imagine it would be much like > > sewage: they'll check to see if have a graywater tank, if all your sinks > > and shower drains are plumbed into it, and that all your valves are > > locked in the "to tank" position. Any failure means a big ticket. > | 22179|22169|2010-01-19 16:03:29|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Handle|I carry an extra 3 ft length of 1 1/4 sch 40 aluminium pipe to put over the handle when I need extra leverage. Don't forget to put an ss pad where the handle hits the deck and where it hits the top front corner of the cabin top. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Depends on how tall you are (I stand up for more leverage). > Remember that it is always easier to cut off a little than weld a little on! > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > > jpronk1 wrote: > > > > > > I was just looking in the files to see how long the handles are. > > Is 24" about right? > > > > > | 22180|22169|2010-01-19 16:04:01|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Handle|Yes. 24 inches is about right. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > I was just looking in the files to see how long the handles are. > Is 24" about right? > | 22181|22111|2010-01-19 16:32:01|brentswain38|Re: the tank|BC water is some of the best in the world , according to the UN. When I come off the open ocean, its great to fill my tanks from a tap with some of the best water I've had in a long time. Before we began using the centreline on my boats for tankage, we used to run 4 inch by half inch flat bars on edge, from chine to centreline, to support the twin keels. It's along span, and the centrline tank drastically reduces the length of this span. A hull speed collision with rocks convinced me that this is not strong enough. So for the last nearly 20 years, my plans have specified 3 by 3 by half inch angle, from the chine to the edge of the tank top, to support the twin keels. When you bend a half inch thick flatbar on edge, the outside is under compression and the inside is under tension. With the flatbar or angle welded to the hull, the chances of it compressing is zero. While running the brake press for many years, we never allowed for compression, the inside never moved. The outside of a bend did all the stretching. It is exponentially easier to stretch the edge of a half inch flatbar, than to stretch the three inch wide flange of an angle . Altho I have told Evan this many times, he has always flatly refused to use angle for the keel supports, and refused to build in the centreline tank. Why? Flatbars look tidier and are easier for the builder to use, and more easily made to look pretty. Structural strength? Who cares? Evan doesn't. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Maybe the tap water is more fresh here in canada but I've been using tap water for the last 6-7 months now out of my stainless tanks and have only filled them twice so essentially I've been drinking and cooking with 12 week old un-freshilized tap water and for the last stint the boat has been a toasty 25-30 degrees (have to make use of the power I'm paying for) I use salt water for everything but cooking and drinking and I take showers on land where I also take dumps, in fact I have yet to take a dump in my boat, If I were out in the middle of nowhere it'd be a different story but in a populated area I wouldn't be letting some logs float around, that's gross I live in those waters, and it's not bad for the ocean but rather for people (to be honest mainly me). If I were somewhere whereas they told me I couldn't use my head, I'd use a bucket - that is still legal in the states isn't it? > > So these state laws about soiling the ocean with my food scrapings, where does the state end is it a 3 mile limit thing or does it extend farther. If fact how is the law "organized" in the states in respect to boats I'm sure it's a total mess with a billion different police factions but for some one who's planning on spending some time down that way (I know brent, yes I'm a masochist and I'll weld my passport to my person) but in the spirit of hopefully avoiding any problems where do they roam so to speak, their must be the coast guard who handle all US waters and the state police who handle what ever the jurisdiction of the state is and the city cops, do they have county marine police as well? And I admit for someone with a lot more ties to the states a big ticket might be an issue but they would really have a hard time making any foreign boat pay it, especially if it's state law - unless of course the gestapo shows up to seize one's boat, it isn't that bad yet is it? > > Wild (insert real name here), If you're going to the trouble to make a large tank with a smaller stainless tank inside it why don't you just spend the extra 100-200 bucks and make up a nice big stainless tank that you could keep all the water in drinkable, otherwise you'd be carrying a hell of a lot excess weight in the boat that you could very easily do with out and use sea water for. > | 22182|22111|2010-01-19 16:36:02|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|Steve Millar could tell you how much tankage there is in the centreline tank. It is a huge amount of fuel, depending on how much you lower the top, which is why I use it for water. It is far less in the 31 . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Yeah that's great question anybody know how much fuel my tank will carry on a 36'? I've haven't used it yet and it's such a dynamic funny shape I don't think my estimations are very close. > > > > Does anybody know how many liters of fuel is holded on the 31' bottom tank? > > > > alfredo > > > | 22183|22111|2010-01-19 18:19:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Water tank|On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 08:46:58PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > In Canada, it's illegal for them to enter your living quarters on your > boat without a search warrant, unless you are dense enough to invite > them. So they can't legally check to see if you have a holding tank of > any kind. The US, by contrast, is a "free country": the cops are free to hassle anyone on a boat any time they feel like it. Warrant? Don't make me laugh. It's a "conveyance", not a "residence" - no matter whether you live aboard or not. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22184|22111|2010-01-19 21:06:49|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|Are you talking about pool on cruise ship? :)) Under "not sealed" container do you mean container connected to the atmosphere? I am not expert on water treatment, but I think, it will contribute to a grow of bacterias in the water. As Brent mentioned, light contributes to it too. You can use the technic used for centuries to keep water in open containers - put silver plates or bars into the tank. This way you will have naturally disinfected water + some "emergency cash" when you need it ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Wild > What if the water is not in a sealed container? and sloshing through > baffles? | 22185|22111|2010-01-19 21:21:06|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|Our current prime minister is a sucky little poodle of the Bush regime, who would love to make Canada a clone of the US. He is already giving our law enforcement people instructions on how to be an asshole, from US Police. A guy from Vancouver was heading east on the trans Canada Highway couple of years ago when a Texas Highway Patrol invited here by our sucky yank wannabe prime ministe, tried to flag him down. He gave the guy the finger and drove on. Later a mountie with a Texas Highway patrol guy flagged him down. They forced him out of the car and left his six tear old son crying inside. They refused to let him attend to his son. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 08:46:58PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > In Canada, it's illegal for them to enter your living quarters on your > > boat without a search warrant, unless you are dense enough to invite > > them. So they can't legally check to see if you have a holding tank of > > any kind. > > The US, by contrast, is a "free country": the cops are free to hassle > anyone on a boat any time they feel like it. Warrant? Don't make me > laugh. It's a "conveyance", not a "residence" - no matter whether you > live aboard or not. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22186|22111|2010-01-19 21:43:23|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|"theboilerflue", according your information in message #21694, I will estimate the volume of your tank (somebody check my calculation please) for water this way: Tank on BS36 (estimated) is 8ft long x ~ 10 ft wide x 3 ft deep. So, we have - 120in x 96in x 36in = 414,720 cub in. Because it should have triangular profile (looking from front to end), it would be only half of volume of rectangular shape. So, 414,720 cub in / 2 = 207,360 cub in -> 897 US Gal -> ~ 747 UK Gal -> ~ 3400 Liters Am I right???? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Yeah that's great question anybody know how much fuel my tank will carry on a 36'? I've haven't used it yet and it's such a dynamic funny shape I don't think my estimations are very close. > | 22187|22111|2010-01-19 21:56:57|wild_explorer|Re: the tank|I do not know if I need such big tank for drinking water... And it is need to weld SS over hull's plates to make SS integrated tank. May be not worse of troubles. If small SS tank could carry enough drinking water - better to put it inside big tank. Easier to maintain. But everybody has their own ideas.... Which is fine ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Wild (insert real name here), If you're going to the trouble to make a large tank with a smaller stainless tank inside it why don't you just spend the extra 100-200 bucks and make up a nice big stainless tank that you could keep all the water in drinkable, otherwise you'd be carrying a hell of a lot excess weight in the boat that you could very easily do with out and use sea water for. > | 22188|22111|2010-01-19 22:00:08|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|When they asked what he does for a living he said "None of your business." Later, when he filed a lawsuit, they found out what he does for a living . He was a Vancouver cop. They settled for an undisclosed amount, rumoured to be $ millions . Texas highway patrol was on the next plane out of the country. They said "If you had told us you were a cop we would have let you go." He said "That was my point , if you know the law we let you go, if you don't we violate you rights, including abusing your child." US homeland security are embarassed by having their neighbours having more civil rights than they have, so are insisting we lower our standards to their level. Our sucky little, bible thumping, Bush loving PM, who wants to make Canada a clone of the US, fortunately is at an all time low in the polls, with little chance of recovering, due to his record of human rights abuses, and will soon no longer be in charge We'll breath a sigh of relief when he's gone. Last week I suggested to a federal opposition leader that our PM's sucking up to the US is a liability, that the opposition has failed to take full advantage of. He agreed. They have been inviting law enforcement assholes from the US to teach our law enforcement how to to act like bigger assholes, as if they didn't already know. Nanaimo Port Authority has been trying to imitate the San Diego Harbor Patrol lately, which is strengthening the boycott Nanaimo movement ( which, hopefully will send a multi million dollar lesson to Nanaimo and others.) Thank god our charter of rights is still basically intact, to the chagrin of Uncle Sam and his Canadian Ottawa boyfriend. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Our current prime minister is a sucky little poodle of the Bush regime, who would love to make Canada a clone of the US. He is already giving our law enforcement people instructions on how to be an asshole, from US Police. > A guy from Vancouver was heading east on the trans Canada Highway couple of years ago when a Texas Highway Patrol invited here by our sucky yank wannabe prime ministe, tried to flag him down. He gave the guy the finger and drove on. Later a mountie with a Texas Highway patrol guy flagged him down. They forced him out of the car and left his six tear old son crying inside. They refused to let him attend to his son. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 08:46:58PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > In Canada, it's illegal for them to enter your living quarters on your > > > boat without a search warrant, unless you are dense enough to invite > > > them. So they can't legally check to see if you have a holding tank of > > > any kind. > > > > The US, by contrast, is a "free country": the cops are free to hassle > > anyone on a boat any time they feel like it. Warrant? Don't make me > > laugh. It's a "conveyance", not a "residence" - no matter whether you > > live aboard or not. > > > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > | 22189|22111|2010-01-19 22:06:31|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|When recently, putting a fuel tank behind the main water tank,we took a five gallon plastic pail and filled it, then dumped it into the tank, until we had the tankage we needed( 40 gallons ). That is where we put the lid. Then we burned a hole in the low point with a 1/8th 6011 at 225 amps, to drain it, then plugged the hole . I'll have to try that with the main tank, next time I work on a 36, in the building stage. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > "theboilerflue", according your information in message #21694, I will estimate the volume of your tank (somebody check my calculation please) for water this way: > > Tank on BS36 (estimated) is 8ft long x ~ 10 ft wide x 3 ft deep. So, we have - 120in x 96in x 36in = 414,720 cub in. Because it should have triangular profile (looking from front to end), it would be only half of volume of rectangular shape. So, > > 414,720 cub in / 2 = 207,360 cub in -> 897 US Gal -> ~ 747 UK Gal -> ~ 3400 Liters > > Am I right???? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Yeah that's great question anybody know how much fuel my tank will carry on a 36'? I've haven't used it yet and it's such a dynamic funny shape I don't think my estimations are very close. > > > | 22190|22111|2010-01-19 22:09:39|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|The main water tank on the 36 is 8ft long by 48 inches wide at the widest point, by about 14 inches deep, with the same prismatic coeficient as the hull, about.54. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > "theboilerflue", according your information in message #21694, I will estimate the volume of your tank (somebody check my calculation please) for water this way: > > Tank on BS36 (estimated) is 8ft long x ~ 10 ft wide x 3 ft deep. So, we have - 120in x 96in x 36in = 414,720 cub in. Because it should have triangular profile (looking from front to end), it would be only half of volume of rectangular shape. So, > > 414,720 cub in / 2 = 207,360 cub in -> 897 US Gal -> ~ 747 UK Gal -> ~ 3400 Liters > > Am I right???? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Yeah that's great question anybody know how much fuel my tank will carry on a 36'? I've haven't used it yet and it's such a dynamic funny shape I don't think my estimations are very close. > > > | 22191|22111|2010-01-19 22:27:35|steve|Re: Water tank|There's my cue. On my BS36 between the keels there are two water tanks that hold a total of about 48 imp. gals ( ? 4.4 l/gal). Aft of that , under the pilothouse sole ( this is a centre cockpit boat so the pilothouse is more forward than usual) there is a fuel tank of about 95 imp gals. It could have been bigger as there is 18" of storage space on top of the fuel tank , under the sole. I also have two plastic water tanks to port of the engine , accessible from the aft cabin that hold about 50 imp. gals. Total of about 100 gals of water storage on the boat. I have installed bladders into the main integral watertanks for better taste. Not essential , but I am trying them out. The tanks , as Brent mentioned are easily accessible for clean-out or painting. I have emptied and cleaned the fuel tank twice in 15 yrs, for peace of mind mostly , as there was very little crud and no water. The keels were prepared for tankage with pressure tested welded caps on the ballast, but I have never used them as such. I think they would hold about 15 imperial gallons each , I may have actually measured that. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Steve Millar could tell you how much tankage there is in the centreline tank. It is a huge amount of fuel, depending on how much you lower the top, which is why I use it for water. It is far less in the 31 . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Yeah that's great question anybody know how much fuel my tank will carry on a 36'? I've haven't used it yet and it's such a dynamic funny shape I don't think my estimations are very close. > > > > > > > Does anybody know how many liters of fuel is holded on the 31' bottom tank? > > > > > > alfredo > > > > > > | 22192|22111|2010-01-19 22:33:03|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|Sorry for misinformation. So, 3 and 3 1/2 was width of the tank at the ends. According new information estimated volume would be: Calculation #1: 96in long x 48in wide x 14in deep = 64,512/2 = 32,256 cub.in -> ~140 US Gal -> 116 UK Gal -> 528 Litres Calculation #2 96in x 36in wide x 14in = 48,384 = 24,192/2 cub.in. -> ~ 100 US Gal -> 87 UK Gal -> 396 Litres Well.. Not much... But good enough if you conserve fuel & water ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The main water tank on the 36 is 8ft long by 48 inches wide at the widest point, by about 14 inches deep, with the same prismatic coeficient as the hull, about.54. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > "theboilerflue", according your information in message #21694, I will estimate the volume of your tank (somebody check my calculation please) for water this way: > > > > Tank on BS36 (estimated) is 8ft long x ~ 10 ft wide x 3 ft deep. So, we have - 120in x 96in x 36in = 414,720 cub in. Because it should have triangular profile (looking from front to end), it would be only half of volume of rectangular shape. So, > > > > 414,720 cub in / 2 = 207,360 cub in -> 897 US Gal -> ~ 747 UK Gal -> ~ 3400 Liters > > > > Am I right???? | 22193|22111|2010-01-19 23:46:10|theboilerflue|Re: Water tank|No, your dead wrong. The tank is about 8 feet long, 3 1/2 at the ends and maybe 4 in the middle so if it were 4 perfect symmetrical triangular pyramids side to side with the their ends chopped off, which it isn't, it be (guessing at 1.75 feet depth in the middle) ((1.75x2x4/3)-(1.75x0.5x1.5/3))x4=18.5 cu feet=140 gallons which I have serious doubts about, as most every surface is curved. My eyeball estimate is about 80 gal. I guess When I go to the fuel dock I better be prepared to pay somewhere between 240 - 420 dollars to fill it up. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > "theboilerflue", according your information in message #21694, I will estimate the volume of your tank (somebody check my calculation please) for water this way: > > Tank on BS36 (estimated) is 8ft long x ~ 10 ft wide x 3 ft deep. So, we have - 120in x 96in x 36in = 414,720 cub in. Because it should have triangular profile (looking from front to end), it would be only half of volume of rectangular shape. So, > > 414,720 cub in / 2 = 207,360 cub in -> 897 US Gal -> ~ 747 UK Gal -> ~ 3400 Liters > > Am I right???? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Yeah that's great question anybody know how much fuel my tank will carry on a 36'? I've haven't used it yet and it's such a dynamic funny shape I don't think my estimations are very close. > > > | 22194|22111|2010-01-20 02:01:26|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|But I was on a right track :) - just picked wrong depth of the tank and width. I corrected my calculation later. According Brent, tank on BS36 is about 14 inch deep. How deep is your tank? Is it 21 inch (1.75 ft) deep at lowest point??? If so, your tank should be bigger than 80 US Gal. Even more than 140 Gal. At least, now you can calculate how much tankage you will lose if you drop the floor 2 inches to make more headroom. Actually, sometimes, it is hard to envision what we are talking about without some kind of sketch/drawing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > No, your dead wrong. The tank is about 8 feet long, 3 1/2 at the ends and maybe 4 in the middle so if it were 4 perfect symmetrical triangular pyramids side to side with the their ends chopped off, which it isn't, it be (guessing at 1.75 feet depth in the middle) ((1.75x2x4/3)-(1.75x0.5x1.5/3))x4=18.5 cu feet=140 gallons which I have serious doubts about, as most every surface is curved. My eyeball estimate is about 80 gal. | 22196|22169|2010-01-20 09:50:01|jpronk1|Re: Anchor Winch Handle|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Don't forget to put an ss pad where the handle hits the deck and where it hits the top front corner of the cabin top. This is where I am having problems "I need a deck and cabin top!" I have a friend that buys from a supplier that unrolls steel. I ran the order trough his company because he buys so much volume from them I thought it would be easier (Over $500 000 in one month). They told him that they would not do it, even if I sent a truck to pick it up. James.| 22197|22197|2010-01-20 11:57:56|SHANE ROTHWELL|Fuel tankage/Day tank|Hey Haidan, Sounds like you have the day tank sussed. a couple of small things that can make a differance are to use a manual pump to pump from your main fuel tank in the bilge, a guzler type is good as long as you have neoprene gaskets/flappers & membrane in it as neoprene is the only rubber (that I'm aware of that's commonly available) that wont screw up in diesel. The other is to plumb your return lines from your engine to return back to your day tank. This provides 2 advantages. first, what you ultimately take out of your day tank is only what the donk actually burns as in some diesels, up to about 1/2 of what you draw out of the tank goes thru the system & is returned to the tank via the injector return lines. The other advantage is that all the time you are running your donk, you are polishing your fuel, but if it's plumbed into the main tank you end up pumping more into your day tank (admittedly not a helluva lot more effort) but you are polishing fuel and dumping it into a larger volume of material (fuel) haveing less net effect, but if you return it to your day tank, then you are just making sure that your fuel is getting the best cleaning possible (witht the same set up). One more little ditty. When you plumb the lines (ya, 1/2" is a bit over sized = good) from the day tank to your primary filters, put a "y" in there, and install a second primary filter in parallel. be sure to put ball valves on both sides of both filters so the one you are not using can be entirely secluded from your operating system. A bit of pelavaer, but set up this way, if you ever get a clogged filter (always at the worst possible time eh), then, provided you always have a clean filter - with the side that is not in use, bled & ready to go, if the filter you have in operation cloggs & the donk begins to sputter, you can switch over to your spare filter & carry on. If you can get a drain right in the very bottom of your day tank where you mentioned you have a depression, so much the better then to clean up the worst of the crap, it's just the turn of a valve, but don't forget to tie it off with wire so it only comes open when you want it. What is it they say, 99.9% of all failures with diesels are related to the cleanliness of fuel. Shane Re: Water tank Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:08 am (PST) I have a day 12 gallon day tank hung off the underside of my cockpit which gravity feeds in the engine so don't have to worry about sucking fuel out of the main fuel tank while healed also most of the time when you're running the engine you aren't healed right over unless you're motor sailing. The fuel pickup in my tank is a 1/2" pipe that extends down to the back edge of the tank so it leaves the bottom-middle depression for water/gunk accumulation so i think to be sucking air the tank would have to be pretty close to the level where one wouldn't want to use the fuel in the tank anyway due to contamination. __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca| 22198|22111|2010-01-20 13:24:12|theboilerflue|Re: Water tank|yeah a way to sketch stuff would be great but trying to draw anything on a computer with a touch pad is a little tough. What I was trying to say is that the tank is kinda the shape of two narrow tall pyramids stacked base to base with each of their points cut off. So two 1/3 depth x width x height. Whether it's 60 or 180 gallons I not too worried the engine I've got (22hp yanmar 3 cylinder) can't burn through more than half a gallon an hour so even with modest estimates it still gives me a range of about 8 solid days of motoring, maybe 1000 miles? something I hope to never have to do. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Sorry for misinformation. So, 3 and 3 1/2 was width of the tank at the ends. > > According new information estimated volume would be: > > Calculation #1: > > 96in long x 48in wide x 14in deep = 64,512/2 = 32,256 cub.in -> > ~140 US Gal -> 116 UK Gal -> 528 Litres > > Calculation #2 > > 96in x 36in wide x 14in = 48,384 = 24,192/2 cub.in. -> > ~ 100 US Gal -> 87 UK Gal -> 396 Litres > > Well.. Not much... But good enough if you conserve fuel & water ;) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > The main water tank on the 36 is 8ft long by 48 inches wide at the widest point, by about 14 inches deep, with the same prismatic coeficient as the hull, about.54. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > "theboilerflue", according your information in message #21694, I will estimate the volume of your tank (somebody check my calculation please) for water this way: > > > > > > Tank on BS36 (estimated) is 8ft long x ~ 10 ft wide x 3 ft deep. So, we have - 120in x 96in x 36in = 414,720 cub in. Because it should have triangular profile (looking from front to end), it would be only half of volume of rectangular shape. So, > > > > > > 414,720 cub in / 2 = 207,360 cub in -> 897 US Gal -> ~ 747 UK Gal -> ~ 3400 Liters > > > > > > Am I right???? > | 22199|22111|2010-01-20 14:51:39|brentswain38|Re: Water tank|Oops my mistake . The tank doesn't have the same prismatic coeficient as the hull, as the ends are flat and don't run into the hull. The front end is 32 inches wide by about 8 inches deep. The back end is 42 inches wide by about a foot deep. Take the average area of the front end, back end and centre baffle and multiply this by the length of the tank, and you have the volume. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > But I was on a right track :) - just picked wrong depth of the tank and width. I corrected my calculation later. According Brent, tank on BS36 is about 14 inch deep. How deep is your tank? Is it 21 inch (1.75 ft) deep at lowest point??? > > If so, your tank should be bigger than 80 US Gal. Even more than 140 Gal. > > At least, now you can calculate how much tankage you will lose if you drop the floor 2 inches to make more headroom. > > Actually, sometimes, it is hard to envision what we are talking about without some kind of sketch/drawing. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > No, your dead wrong. The tank is about 8 feet long, 3 1/2 at the ends and maybe 4 in the middle so if it were 4 perfect symmetrical triangular pyramids side to side with the their ends chopped off, which it isn't, it be (guessing at 1.75 feet depth in the middle) ((1.75x2x4/3)-(1.75x0.5x1.5/3))x4=18.5 cu feet=140 gallons which I have serious doubts about, as most every surface is curved. My eyeball estimate is about 80 gal. > | 22200|22197|2010-01-20 15:02:41|Aaron Williams|Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank|I was told to install an access fitting above the lowest point on the fuel tank so as to be able to remove water. Something like just a tube 1/2" off the bottom and large enough to allow a plastic suction tube to slide through to the bottom of the tank, like one of the oil change kits for down the dip stick. It was also mentioned about how far down to stick a filler nozzle down into the tank to prevent excess foaming. Aaron  --- On Wed, 1/20/10, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: From: SHANE ROTHWELL Subject: [origamiboats] Fuel tankage/Day tank To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 7:57 AM   Hey Haidan, Sounds like you have the day tank sussed. a couple of small things that can make a differance are to use a manual pump to pump from your main fuel tank in the bilge, a guzler type is good as long as you have neoprene gaskets/flappers & membrane in it as neoprene is the only rubber (that I'm aware of that's commonly available) that wont screw up in diesel. The other is to plumb your return lines from your engine to return back to your day tank. This provides 2 advantages. first, what you ultimately take out of your day tank is only what the donk actually burns as in some diesels, up to about 1/2 of what you draw out of the tank goes thru the system & is returned to the tank via the injector return lines. The other advantage is that all the time you are running your donk, you are polishing your fuel, but if it's plumbed into the main tank you end up pumping more into your day tank (admittedly not a helluva lot more effort) but you are polishing fuel and dumping it into a larger volume of material (fuel) haveing less net effect, but if you return it to your day tank, then you are just making sure that your fuel is getting the best cleaning possible (witht the same set up). One more little ditty. When you plumb the lines (ya, 1/2" is a bit over sized = good) from the day tank to your primary filters, put a "y" in there, and install a second primary filter in parallel. be sure to put ball valves on both sides of both filters so the one you are not using can be entirely secluded from your operating system. A bit of pelavaer, but set up this way, if you ever get a clogged filter (always at the worst possible time eh), then, provided you always have a clean filter - with the side that is not in use, bled & ready to go, if the filter you have in operation cloggs & the donk begins to sputter, you can switch over to your spare filter & carry on. If you can get a drain right in the very bottom of your day tank where you mentioned you have a depression, so much the better then to clean up the worst of the crap, it's just the turn of a valve, but don't forget to tie it off with wire so it only comes open when you want it. What is it they say, 99.9% of all failures with diesels are related to the cleanliness of fuel. Shane Re: Water tank Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@graffiti. net theboilerflue Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:08 am (PST) I have a day 12 gallon day tank hung off the underside of my cockpit which gravity feeds in the engine so don't have to worry about sucking fuel out of the main fuel tank while healed also most of the time when you're running the engine you aren't healed right over unless you're motor sailing. The fuel pickup in my tank is a 1/2" pipe that extends down to the back edge of the tank so it leaves the bottom-middle depression for water/gunk accumulation so i think to be sucking air the tank would have to be pretty close to the level where one wouldn't want to use the fuel in the tank anyway due to contamination. ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail. yahoo.ca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22201|22169|2010-01-20 15:07:53|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Handle|Gary had a similar problem in the Peterborough Ontario area. Under $10 grand is just too small an order for the arrogant bastards to bother with. They refuse to sell what you need for a 36. So he came to BC to build his boat. No problem here. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Don't forget to put an ss pad where the handle hits the deck and where it hits the top front corner of the cabin top. > > This is where I am having problems "I need a deck and cabin top!" > I have a friend that buys from a supplier that unrolls steel. I ran the order trough his company because he buys so much volume from them I thought it would be easier (Over $500 000 in one month). They told him that they would not do it, even if I sent a truck to pick it up. > James. > | 22202|22197|2010-01-20 15:17:54|brentswain38|Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank|Shane Good points. I used a guzzler for my lavac head. What an abortion. They made sure you can't improvise on their rubber parts, so you have to buy their parts, a problem when mine failed crossing the equator south of Xmas Island. No guzzler dealerships out there. I wouldn't recommend Guzzlers for anything. One client used a rotary agricultural pump which are made for diesel, permanently mounted under the cockpit seat. Neoprene can have problems with long term use in diesel.I've seen it disolve in diesel. Nitrile is better only available on rotary farm pumps. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hey Haidan, > > Sounds like you have the day tank sussed. a couple of small things that can make a differance are to use a manual pump to pump from your main fuel tank in the bilge, a guzler type is good as long as you have neoprene gaskets/flappers & membrane in it as neoprene is the only rubber (that I'm aware of that's commonly available) that wont screw up in diesel. > > The other is to plumb your return lines from your engine to return back to your day tank. This provides 2 advantages. first, what you ultimately take out of your day tank is only what the donk actually burns as in some diesels, up to about 1/2 of what you draw out of the tank goes thru the system & is returned to the tank via the injector return lines. The other advantage is that all the time you are running your donk, you are polishing your fuel, but if it's plumbed into the main tank you end up pumping more into your day tank (admittedly not a helluva lot more effort) but you are polishing fuel and dumping it into a larger volume of material (fuel) haveing less net effect, but if you return it to your day tank, then you are just making sure that your fuel is getting the best cleaning possible (witht the same set up). > > One more little ditty. When you plumb the lines (ya, 1/2" is a bit over sized = good) from the day tank to your primary filters, put a "y" in there, and install a second primary filter in parallel. be sure to put ball valves on both sides of both filters so the one you are not using can be entirely secluded from your operating system. A bit of pelavaer, but set up this way, if you ever get a clogged filter (always at the worst possible time eh), then, provided you always have a clean filter - with the side that is not in use, bled & ready to go, if the filter you have in operation cloggs & the donk begins to sputter, you can switch over to your spare filter & carry on. > > If you can get a drain right in the very bottom of your day tank where you mentioned you have a depression, so much the better then to clean up the worst of the crap, it's just the turn of a valve, but don't forget to tie it off with wire so it only comes open when you want it. > > What is it they say, 99.9% of all failures with diesels are related to the cleanliness of fuel. > > Shane > > > > > > Re: Water tank > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue > Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:08 am (PST) > > > I have a day 12 gallon day tank hung off the underside of my cockpit which gravity feeds in the engine so don't have to worry about sucking fuel out of the main fuel tank while healed also most of the time when you're running the engine you aren't healed right over unless you're motor sailing. The fuel pickup in my tank is a 1/2" pipe that extends down to the back edge of the tank so it leaves the bottom-middle depression for water/gunk accumulation so i think to be sucking air the tank would have to be pretty close to the level where one wouldn't want to use the fuel in the tank anyway due to contamination. > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > | 22203|22197|2010-01-20 15:43:04|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank|I agree on the neoprene,,,,made all my diesel access cover gasketing of neoprene...just replced them all with nitrile. They turned soft and distorted so badly they leaked. Who'd a thought that would happen? Gord Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. Envoy� sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r�seau de Bell. -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 20:01:14 To: Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank Shane Good points. I used a guzzler for my lavac head. What an abortion. They made sure you can't improvise on their rubber parts, so you have to buy their parts, a problem when mine failed crossing the equator south of Xmas Island. No guzzler dealerships out there. I wouldn't recommend Guzzlers for anything. One client used a rotary agricultural pump which are made for diesel, permanently mounted under the cockpit seat. Neoprene can have problems with long term use in diesel.I've seen it disolve in diesel. Nitrile is better only available on rotary farm pumps. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hey Haidan, > > Sounds like you have the day tank sussed. a couple of small things that can make a differance are to use a manual pump to pump from your main fuel tank in the bilge, a guzler type is good as long as you have neoprene gaskets/flappers & membrane in it as neoprene is the only rubber (that I'm aware of that's commonly available) that wont screw up in diesel. > > The other is to plumb your return lines from your engine to return back to your day tank. This provides 2 advantages. first, what you ultimately take out of your day tank is only what the donk actually burns as in some diesels, up to about 1/2 of what you draw out of the tank goes thru the system & is returned to the tank via the injector return lines. The other advantage is that all the time you are running your donk, you are polishing your fuel, but if it's plumbed into the main tank you end up pumping more into your day tank (admittedly not a helluva lot more effort) but you are polishing fuel and dumping it into a larger volume of material (fuel) haveing less net effect, but if you return it to your day tank, then you are just making sure that your fuel is getting the best cleaning possible (witht the same set up). > > One more little ditty. When you plumb the lines (ya, 1/2" is a bit over sized = good) from the day tank to your primary filters, put a "y" in there, and install a second primary filter in parallel. be sure to put ball valves on both sides of both filters so the one you are not using can be entirely secluded from your operating system. A bit of pelavaer, but set up this way, if you ever get a clogged filter (always at the worst possible time eh), then, provided you always have a clean filter - with the side that is not in use, bled & ready to go, if the filter you have in operation cloggs & the donk begins to sputter, you can switch over to your spare filter & carry on. > > If you can get a drain right in the very bottom of your day tank where you mentioned you have a depression, so much the better then to clean up the worst of the crap, it's just the turn of a valve, but don't forget to tie it off with wire so it only comes open when you want it. > > What is it they say, 99.9% of all failures with diesels are related to the cleanliness of fuel. > > Shane > > > > > > Re: Water tank > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue > Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:08 am (PST) > > > I have a day 12 gallon day tank hung off the underside of my cockpit which gravity feeds in the engine so don't have to worry about sucking fuel out of the main fuel tank while healed also most of the time when you're running the engine you aren't healed right over unless you're motor sailing. The fuel pickup in my tank is a 1/2" pipe that extends down to the back edge of the tank so it leaves the bottom-middle depression for water/gunk accumulation so i think to be sucking air the tank would have to be pretty close to the level where one wouldn't want to use the fuel in the tank anyway due to contamination. > > > > >__________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22204|22197|2010-01-20 16:15:02|wild_explorer|Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank|On a big ship, we had small "day diesel fuel tank" with prismatic bottom, "dump" valve at lowest point of the bottom and small/tall window with marks to see how much fuel left. Good thing about having window - you can see if there is water in the tank (it clearly visible). If there is water, you open the valve and dump water in the bilge tank. It was a plate, set at 45-60 deg under the valve. It helps to see if diesel fuel starts dumping after/instead of water. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I was told to install an access fitting above the lowest point on the fuel tank so as to be able to remove water. Something like just a tube 1/2" off the bottom and large enough to allow a plastic suction tube to slide through to the bottom of the tank, like one of the oil change kits for down the dip stick. It was also mentioned about how far down to stick a filler nozzle down into the tank to prevent excess foaming. > Aaron  | 22205|22111|2010-01-20 18:30:16|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|You mean like this? http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/BS36_water_tank_prototype.JPG Would be little bit hard to draw it with touch pad, but I carry small wheel optical mouse with me ;) Do you want to join future "3D club" for prototyping Origami boat? ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > yeah a way to sketch stuff would be great but trying to draw anything on a computer with a touch pad is a little tough. What I was trying to say is that the tank is kinda the shape of two narrow tall pyramids stacked base to base with each of their points cut off. | 22206|22111|2010-01-20 19:22:53|Aaron Williams|Re: Water tank|Sort of but switch the length and width --- On Wed, 1/20/10, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: Re:[origamiboats] Re: Water tank To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 2:30 PM   You mean like this? http://groups. google.com/ group/origamiboa ts/web/BS36_ water_tank_ prototype. JPG Would be little bit hard to draw it with touch pad, but I carry small wheel optical mouse with me ;) Do you want to join future "3D club" for prototyping Origami boat? ;)) --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > yeah a way to sketch stuff would be great but trying to draw anything on a computer with a touch pad is a little tough. What I was trying to say is that the tank is kinda the shape of two narrow tall pyramids stacked base to base with each of their points cut off. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22207|22111|2010-01-20 20:31:42|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|Which one? I thought tank is 8ft long, 4ft wide at the middle, 3' & 3'6" wide at the ends. 21" deep at the center, 1' deep at 3'6" side, 8" deep at 3' side. Where is my mistake? Another question. Why water tank does not run all the way to the hull in horizontal direction (looking from front to back of the hull)? Is this space used for other tank? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Sort of but switch the length and width > | 22208|22111|2010-01-20 21:00:43|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|OK, Got it. Water tank has V-shape if you are looking from front to end of the hull + trapezoid shape halves (front & back) if looking from the top. Will redraw it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Which one? > > I thought tank is 8ft long, 4ft wide at the middle, 3' & 3'6" wide at the ends. 21" deep at the center, 1' deep at 3'6" side, 8" deep at 3' side. > > Where is my mistake? > > Another question. Why water tank does not run all the way to the hull in horizontal direction (looking from front to back of the hull)? Is this space used for other tank? | 22209|22197|2010-01-21 01:25:53|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank|What is a guzzler? alfredo > Shane > Good points. I used a guzzler for my lavac head. What an abortion. They made sure you can't improvise on their rubber parts, so you have to buy their parts, a problem when mine failed crossing the equator south of Xmas Island. No guzzler dealerships out there. > I wouldn't recommend Guzzlers for anything. > One client used a rotary agricultural pump which are made for diesel, permanently mounted under the cockpit seat. Neoprene can have problems with long term use in diesel.I've seen it disolve in diesel. Nitrile is better only available on rotary farm pumps. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Hey Haidan, > > > > Sounds like you have the day tank sussed. a couple of small things that can make a differance are to use a manual pump to pump from your main fuel tank in the bilge, a guzler type is good as long as you have neoprene gaskets/flappers & membrane in it as neoprene is the only rubber (that I'm aware of that's commonly available) that wont screw up in diesel. > > > > The other is to plumb your return lines from your engine to return back to your day tank. This provides 2 advantages. first, what you ultimately take out of your day tank is only what the donk actually burns as in some diesels, up to about 1/2 of what you draw out of the tank goes thru the system & is returned to the tank via the injector return lines. The other advantage is that all the time you are running your donk, you are polishing your fuel, but if it's plumbed into the main tank you end up pumping more into your day tank (admittedly not a helluva lot more effort) but you are polishing fuel and dumping it into a larger volume of material (fuel) haveing less net effect, but if you return it to your day tank, then you are just making sure that your fuel is getting the best cleaning possible (witht the same set up). > > > > One more little ditty. When you plumb the lines (ya, 1/2" is a bit over sized = good) from the day tank to your primary filters, put a "y" in there, and install a second primary filter in parallel. be sure to put ball valves on both sides of both filters so the one you are not using can be entirely secluded from your operating system. A bit of pelavaer, but set up this way, if you ever get a clogged filter (always at the worst possible time eh), then, provided you always have a clean filter - with the side that is not in use, bled & ready to go, if the filter you have in operation cloggs & the donk begins to sputter, you can switch over to your spare filter & carry on. > > > > If you can get a drain right in the very bottom of your day tank where you mentioned you have a depression, so much the better then to clean up the worst of the crap, it's just the turn of a valve, but don't forget to tie it off with wire so it only comes open when you want it. > > > > What is it they say, 99.9% of all failures with diesels are related to the cleanliness of fuel. > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Water tank > > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue > > Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:08 am (PST) > > > > > > I have a day 12 gallon day tank hung off the underside of my cockpit which gravity feeds in the engine so don't have to worry about sucking fuel out of the main fuel tank while healed also most of the time when you're running the engine you aren't healed right over unless you're motor sailing. The fuel pickup in my tank is a 1/2" pipe that extends down to the back edge of the tank so it leaves the bottom-middle depression for water/gunk accumulation so i think to be sucking air the tank would have to be pretty close to the level where one wouldn't want to use the fuel in the tank anyway due to contamination. > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > > > > > | 22210|22111|2010-01-21 02:18:59|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|Does it look correct now? http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/BS36_water_tank_prototype_v2.JPG Let me know, If looks OK, I will check the volume. Dividing ribs are in the tank just to show geometry of the tank. Could be useful as separators, but will make maintenance of the tank difficult. Somebody can install removable plastic separators if wanted. Same question again: Why water tank does not run all the way (up to hull plates) from front to end of the hull? What is the reason for that? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Sort of but switch the length and width > | 22211|22211|2010-01-21 11:36:43|SHANE ROTHWELL|fuel tanks|Brent & Gord, I stand corrected. you are quite correct, Nitrile it is! thanks for catching it. Also, Haidan, If you are going to have enough fuel to run the donk for 8 days you want to keep that fuel in good shape. Brent can tell you much more about condensation and that, but having had the diesel bug (christ what a hasstle!), man you do NOT want it. The diesel bug is basically the diesel being broken down by microbes & is on it's way back to nature. it starts where water touches the diesel & the water will be of course on the bottom. Black, or green, stringy or crystaline, just ugly and comes in many forms, all of which you will notice. I believe the devil has a 'special' form waiting just for each & every one of us if you give it a chance. To make god damned sure you dont' get the bug and to keep your fuel in good shape, 3 things: 1. DO have a way of removing the water from the bottom of your main tanks- this can be as simple as having the lowest point in your main tanks directly below the filler and sucking the crap ouf of the tank with a pvc tube & a wet & dry vacuum ($40 at Cambodian tire for a small one) 2. Do have a simple system to polish your fuel in the main tank. Maybe this could be something simple & cheap using what you already have, in that you could have a byepass after your 2 primary filters between your day tank and your lift pump that goes back to your main fuel tanks, you could pump fuel up into your day tank (12 gals or about 50 litres you sed?) and run it back into your main fuel tank - through your primary filters. get in the habbit to do it regularly. plumbing it like this may also help in bleeding the system after a filter change. oh ya, have heaps of filters & buy them by the case 3. use a product called "Bio-bore" that prevents the bug. It will NOT stop the bug once it has started but it will prevent the bug. Don't know if you've ever seen the bug, grows much faster in the tropics cuz it's warmer, but it does happen herer in the great white north, and believe me man, you don't want it. written by Brent Shane Good points. I used a guzzler for my lavac head. What an abortion. They made sure you can't improvise on their rubber parts, so you have to buy their parts, a problem when mine failed crossing the equator south of Xmas Island. No guzzler dealerships out there. I wouldn't recommend Guzzlers for anything. One client used a rotary agricultural pump which are made for diesel, permanently mounted under the cockpit seat. Neoprene can have problems with long term use in diesel.I've seen it disolve in diesel. Nitrile is better only available on rotary farm pumps. Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:24 am (PST) yeah a way to sketch stuff would be great but trying to draw anything on a computer with a touch pad is a little tough. What I was trying to say is that the tank is kinda the shape of two narrow tall pyramids stacked base to base with each of their points cut off. So two 1/3 depth x width x height. Whether it's 60 or 180 gallons I not too worried the engine I've got (22hp yanmar 3 cylinder) can't burn through more than half a gallon an hour so even with modest estimates it still gives me a range of about 8 solid days of motoring, maybe 1000 miles? something I hope to never have to do. __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca| 22212|22197|2010-01-21 13:59:53|brentswain38|Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank|Guzzler is a brand name for a small hand operated diaphragm bilge pump, similar in shape to the one in my book, but a piece of plastic crap. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > What is a guzzler? > alfredo > > > > > Shane > > Good points. I used a guzzler for my lavac head. What an abortion. They made sure you can't improvise on their rubber parts, so you have to buy their parts, a problem when mine failed crossing the equator south of Xmas Island. No guzzler dealerships out there. > > I wouldn't recommend Guzzlers for anything. > > One client used a rotary agricultural pump which are made for diesel, permanently mounted under the cockpit seat. Neoprene can have problems with long term use in diesel.I've seen it disolve in diesel. Nitrile is better only available on rotary farm pumps. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > > > Hey Haidan, > > > > > > Sounds like you have the day tank sussed. a couple of small things that can make a differance are to use a manual pump to pump from your main fuel tank in the bilge, a guzler type is good as long as you have neoprene gaskets/flappers & membrane in it as neoprene is the only rubber (that I'm aware of that's commonly available) that wont screw up in diesel. > > > > > > The other is to plumb your return lines from your engine to return back to your day tank. This provides 2 advantages. first, what you ultimately take out of your day tank is only what the donk actually burns as in some diesels, up to about 1/2 of what you draw out of the tank goes thru the system & is returned to the tank via the injector return lines. The other advantage is that all the time you are running your donk, you are polishing your fuel, but if it's plumbed into the main tank you end up pumping more into your day tank (admittedly not a helluva lot more effort) but you are polishing fuel and dumping it into a larger volume of material (fuel) haveing less net effect, but if you return it to your day tank, then you are just making sure that your fuel is getting the best cleaning possible (witht the same set up). > > > > > > One more little ditty. When you plumb the lines (ya, 1/2" is a bit over sized = good) from the day tank to your primary filters, put a "y" in there, and install a second primary filter in parallel. be sure to put ball valves on both sides of both filters so the one you are not using can be entirely secluded from your operating system. A bit of pelavaer, but set up this way, if you ever get a clogged filter (always at the worst possible time eh), then, provided you always have a clean filter - with the side that is not in use, bled & ready to go, if the filter you have in operation cloggs & the donk begins to sputter, you can switch over to your spare filter & carry on. > > > > > > If you can get a drain right in the very bottom of your day tank where you mentioned you have a depression, so much the better then to clean up the worst of the crap, it's just the turn of a valve, but don't forget to tie it off with wire so it only comes open when you want it. > > > > > > What is it they say, 99.9% of all failures with diesels are related to the cleanliness of fuel. > > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Water tank > > > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@ theboilerflue > > > Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:08 am (PST) > > > > > > > > > I have a day 12 gallon day tank hung off the underside of my cockpit which gravity feeds in the engine so don't have to worry about sucking fuel out of the main fuel tank while healed also most of the time when you're running the engine you aren't healed right over unless you're motor sailing. The fuel pickup in my tank is a 1/2" pipe that extends down to the back edge of the tank so it leaves the bottom-middle depression for water/gunk accumulation so i think to be sucking air the tank would have to be pretty close to the level where one wouldn't want to use the fuel in the tank anyway due to contamination. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > > > > > > > > > > | 22213|22211|2010-01-21 14:03:26|wild_explorer|Re: fuel tanks|I agree with Shane, Easy way to prevent diesel engine and diesel fuel problems are: - Have small "Day" diesel fuel tank and periodically dump water from it - Have simple pump between main and day tank (diaphragm or piston type)with intake at LOWEST possible point in main tank (no mesh or filter on intake port). - Have industrial coarse filter with clear body and replaceable inserts AFTER this pump. - Keep good supply of Ethyl alcohol (Ethanol) on board and periodically put some in main fuel tank (better through fuel intake - it will kill all bacterias in tank water). Using Isopropyl alcohol is not a good idea, because it leaves residue on injectors. Ethyl alcohol should be available in most places. - Have coarse and fine filters for day fuel tank. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > 3. use a product called "Bio-bore" that prevents the bug. It will NOT stop the bug once it has started but it will prevent the bug. > | 22214|22211|2010-01-21 14:06:33|brentswain38|Re: fuel tanks|One should use lots of bug killer in ones diesel fuel , often. A clear sight glass in the side of a tank is a fire hazard. That's why I got rid of mine. A window in the top of the tank is far less of a fire hazard ,as if it melts in a fire it doesn't let he fuel run out, and there is not enough air in the tank to keep it burning. It can't go anywhere. A vacuum guage in your fuel line will let you know when your filtres need changing. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Brent & Gord, > I stand corrected. you are quite correct, Nitrile it is! thanks for catching it. > > Also, Haidan, > > If you are going to have enough fuel to run the donk for 8 days you want to keep that fuel in good shape. Brent can tell you much more about condensation and that, but having had the diesel bug (christ what a hasstle!), man you do NOT want it. The diesel bug is basically the diesel being broken down by microbes & is on it's way back to nature. it starts where water touches the diesel & the water will be of course on the bottom. > Black, or green, stringy or crystaline, just ugly and comes in many forms, all of which you will notice. I believe the devil has a 'special' form waiting just for each & every one of us if you give it a chance. > > To make god damned sure you dont' get the bug and to keep your fuel in good shape, 3 things: > 1. DO have a way of removing the water from the bottom of your main tanks- this can be as simple as having the lowest point in your main tanks directly below the filler and sucking the crap ouf of the tank with a pvc tube & a wet & dry vacuum ($40 at Cambodian tire for a small one) > 2. Do have a simple system to polish your fuel in the main tank. Maybe this could be something simple & cheap using what you already have, in that you could have a byepass after your 2 primary filters between your day tank and your lift pump that goes back to your main fuel tanks, you could pump fuel up into your day tank (12 gals or about 50 litres you sed?) and run it back into your main fuel tank - through your primary filters. get in the habbit to do it regularly. plumbing it like this may also help in bleeding the system after a filter change. oh ya, have heaps of filters & buy them by the case > 3. use a product called "Bio-bore" that prevents the bug. It will NOT stop the bug once it has started but it will prevent the bug. > > Don't know if you've ever seen the bug, grows much faster in the tropics cuz it's warmer, but it does happen herer in the great white north, and believe me man, you don't want it. > > > > written by Brent > > Shane > Good points. I used a guzzler for my lavac head. What an abortion. They made sure you can't improvise on their rubber parts, so you have to buy their parts, a problem when mine failed crossing the equator south of Xmas Island. No guzzler dealerships out there. > I wouldn't recommend Guzzlers for anything. > One client used a rotary agricultural pump which are made for diesel, permanently mounted under the cockpit seat. Neoprene can have problems with long term use in diesel.I've seen it disolve in diesel. Nitrile is better only available on rotary farm pumps. > > > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue > Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:24 am (PST) > > > yeah a way to sketch stuff would be great but trying to draw anything on a computer with a touch pad is a little tough. What I was trying to say is that the tank is kinda the shape of two narrow tall pyramids stacked base to base with each of their points cut off. So two 1/3 depth x width x height. Whether it's 60 or 180 gallons I not too worried the engine I've got (22hp yanmar 3 cylinder) can't burn through more than half a gallon an hour so even with modest estimates it still gives me a range of about 8 solid days of motoring, maybe 1000 miles? something I hope to never have to do. > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > | 22215|22211|2010-01-21 14:13:59|markh|Re: fuel tanks|To easily SEE if there is water in your fuel be it gas or diesel add drops of food coloring to the tank--when it hits the water if present it turns the water the color of the food coloring. Works very well for me in my OB gas tanks. Straining the fuel through oil absorber pads will get rid of nasty bits and can be quite an eyeopener as to how dirty some fuel providers tanks are--such as our local marina tanks. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22216|22197|2010-01-21 14:30:52|theboilerflue|Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank|Yeah I didn't realize how much fuel is returned but luckily I plumbed it into the day tank, actually it goes right back into the filter housing on the tank side. I was wondering about the gusher pump rubber I'll have to change mine... or check to see if it's neoprene. This day tank system definitely simplifies things for sure ie. less things to go wrong. I mounted the gusher pump in the bilge under the pilot house floor. Good idea with the second filter, at some time when that bank error in my flavour happens I'll get another one, my engine primes pretty easily but still is a little messy. My day tank I got from someone down island and it's pretty nicely made, looks like the guy bent a sheet of SS into a half circle capped each end and the top and he put in 1/4" nipples for a sight gauge a fill, a vent at the top corner, pickup into the side so the tank has maybe a gallon or so below the pickup and a drain right in the bottom. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hey Haidan, > > Sounds like you have the day tank sussed. a couple of small things that can make a differance are to use a manual pump to pump from your main fuel tank in the bilge, a guzler type is good as long as you have neoprene gaskets/flappers & membrane in it as neoprene is the only rubber (that I'm aware of that's commonly available) that wont screw up in diesel. > > The other is to plumb your return lines from your engine to return back to your day tank. This provides 2 advantages. first, what you ultimately take out of your day tank is only what the donk actually burns as in some diesels, up to about 1/2 of what you draw out of the tank goes thru the system & is returned to the tank via the injector return lines. The other advantage is that all the time you are running your donk, you are polishing your fuel, but if it's plumbed into the main tank you end up pumping more into your day tank (admittedly not a helluva lot more effort) but you are polishing fuel and dumping it into a larger volume of material (fuel) haveing less net effect, but if you return it to your day tank, then you are just making sure that your fuel is getting the best cleaning possible (witht the same set up). > > One more little ditty. When you plumb the lines (ya, 1/2" is a bit over sized = good) from the day tank to your primary filters, put a "y" in there, and install a second primary filter in parallel. be sure to put ball valves on both sides of both filters so the one you are not using can be entirely secluded from your operating system. A bit of pelavaer, but set up this way, if you ever get a clogged filter (always at the worst possible time eh), then, provided you always have a clean filter - with the side that is not in use, bled & ready to go, if the filter you have in operation cloggs & the donk begins to sputter, you can switch over to your spare filter & carry on. > > If you can get a drain right in the very bottom of your day tank where you mentioned you have a depression, so much the better then to clean up the worst of the crap, it's just the turn of a valve, but don't forget to tie it off with wire so it only comes open when you want it. > > What is it they say, 99.9% of all failures with diesels are related to the cleanliness of fuel. > > Shane > > > > > > Re: Water tank > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue > Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:08 am (PST) > > > I have a day 12 gallon day tank hung off the underside of my cockpit which gravity feeds in the engine so don't have to worry about sucking fuel out of the main fuel tank while healed also most of the time when you're running the engine you aren't healed right over unless you're motor sailing. The fuel pickup in my tank is a 1/2" pipe that extends down to the back edge of the tank so it leaves the bottom-middle depression for water/gunk accumulation so i think to be sucking air the tank would have to be pretty close to the level where one wouldn't want to use the fuel in the tank anyway due to contamination. > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > | 22217|22197|2010-01-21 14:31:57|theboilerflue|Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank|I just used 1/4" vinyl hose as a sight gauge attached to a SS pipe nibble at the top and bottom of the tank. I was told that I'd get yellow and brittle and I'll have to replace it every once and a while but it's a day tank so that should be a problem, would have been nice to put valves in each nipple I guess...... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > On a big ship, we had small "day diesel fuel tank" with prismatic bottom, "dump" valve at lowest point of the bottom and small/tall window with marks to see how much fuel left. Good thing about having window - you can see if there is water in the tank (it clearly visible). If there is water, you open the valve and dump water in the bilge tank. It was a plate, set at 45-60 deg under the valve. It helps to see if diesel fuel starts dumping after/instead of water. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > I was told to install an access fitting above the lowest point on the fuel tank so as to be able to remove water. Something like just a tube 1/2" off the bottom and large enough to allow a plastic suction tube to slide through to the bottom of the tank, like one of the oil change kits for down the dip stick. It was also mentioned about how far down to stick a filler nozzle down into the tank to prevent excess foaming. > > Aaron  > | 22218|22111|2010-01-21 14:41:31|theboilerflue|Re: Water tank|yeah pretty much it looks a bit more pointy in the boat than on paper I'm sure the measurements are off a bit, but yeah that's the shape of course all the edges except the bulkhead ends are rounded to the shape of the hull --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > You mean like this? > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/BS36_water_tank_prototype.JPG > > Would be little bit hard to draw it with touch pad, but I carry small wheel optical mouse with me ;) > > Do you want to join future "3D club" for prototyping Origami boat? ;)) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > yeah a way to sketch stuff would be great but trying to draw anything on a computer with a touch pad is a little tough. What I was trying to say is that the tank is kinda the shape of two narrow tall pyramids stacked base to base with each of their points cut off. > | 22219|22111|2010-01-21 14:42:04|theboilerflue|Re: Water tank|yes that's better v shape see it's two pyramids base to base with their tops cut off? I think the reason the tank isn't carried all the way to the hull is so that you can reach each end without having to climb more than half way into the tank beside the bulkheads give strength to the keels and that little triangle in the front would give much tankage and in the back I'd rather use it for bilge storage. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Does it look correct now? > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/BS36_water_tank_prototype_v2.JPG > > Let me know, If looks OK, I will check the volume. Dividing ribs are in the tank just to show geometry of the tank. Could be useful as separators, but will make maintenance of the tank difficult. Somebody can install removable plastic separators if wanted. > > Same question again: Why water tank does not run all the way (up to hull plates) from front to end of the hull? What is the reason for that? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Sort of but switch the length and width > > > | 22220|22211|2010-01-21 15:05:32|Paul Wilson|Re: fuel tanks|Using too much Biocide can clog filters. It can turn to jelly. I crewed on a boat which had this problem after the skipper added Biobore one day. I suspect he added too much. We had no problem with clogged filters but kept clogging them up after that. We had to get rid of over 200 gallons of fuel and then clean the tank of a pink scum which had coated all the surfaces of the tank. Not much fun in a rolling anchorage. I would only use what is recommended. If there is no water in the fuel, the algae can't grow so first line of defense is to prevent the water from getting into the tank and using good water separating filters which are checked often. I fill my day tank by pumping air into the main tank in the keel through the vent line with a dinghy pump. I have a Tee in the vent line with a couple of ball valves to shut off the vent and open to the air pump. No pumps are then needed in the fuel line and its a cheap and reliable system. 3 psi will lift fuel over 7 feet. You just have to make sure you don't use too much pressure. With the thick steel of the main tank being integral to the hull, 3 psi is no problem. Cheers, Paul brentswain38 wrote: > > > One should use lots of bug killer in ones diesel fuel , often. > A clear sight glass in the side of a tank is a fire hazard. That's why > I got rid of mine. A window in the top of the tank is far less of a > fire hazard ,as if it melts in a fire it doesn't let he fuel run out, > and there is not enough air in the tank to keep it burning. It can't > go anywhere. > A vacuum guage in your fuel line will let you know when your filtres > need changing. . > > > | 22221|22211|2010-01-21 16:23:48|wild_explorer|Re: fuel tanks|This is true for "home made" view/sight window in the tank made from regular glass or plastic. If you use visual gauges/windows from industrial equipment (pressure tanks, chemical, etc), it has different glass in it than "windows" glass. It is high strength, high temperature and very thick. If you take/cut it out from such equipment found in scrap yards and put/weld it to your tank, you should not have any problems even in case of fire. Just do not use low temperature gasket to seal such window to the tank. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A clear sight glass in the side of a tank is a fire hazard. That's why I got rid of mine. A window in the top of the tank is far less of a fire hazard ,as if it melts in a fire it doesn't let he fuel run out, and there is not enough air in the tank to keep it burning. It can't go anywhere. > A vacuum guage in your fuel line will let you know when your filtres need changing. . | 22222|22197|2010-01-21 16:43:11|Gord Schnell|Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank|Hey Brent, I've got a pair of Guzzlers, new in the box, made of really metal...probably about 20 years old and complete with "spares". Gord On 21-Jan-10, at 10:59 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > Guzzler is a brand name for a small hand operated diaphragm bilge > pump, similar in shape to the one in my book, but a piece of plastic > crap. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" > wrote: > > > > What is a guzzler? > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > Shane > > > Good points. I used a guzzler for my lavac head. What an > abortion. They made sure you can't improvise on their rubber parts, > so you have to buy their parts, a problem when mine failed crossing > the equator south of Xmas Island. No guzzler dealerships out there. > > > I wouldn't recommend Guzzlers for anything. > > > One client used a rotary agricultural pump which are made for > diesel, permanently mounted under the cockpit seat. Neoprene can > have problems with long term use in diesel.I've seen it disolve in > diesel. Nitrile is better only available on rotary farm pumps. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hey Haidan, > > > > > > > > Sounds like you have the day tank sussed. a couple of small > things that can make a differance are to use a manual pump to pump > from your main fuel tank in the bilge, a guzler type is good as long > as you have neoprene gaskets/flappers & membrane in it as neoprene > is the only rubber (that I'm aware of that's commonly available) > that wont screw up in diesel. > > > > > > > > The other is to plumb your return lines from your engine to > return back to your day tank. This provides 2 advantages. first, > what you ultimately take out of your day tank is only what the donk > actually burns as in some diesels, up to about 1/2 of what you draw > out of the tank goes thru the system & is returned to the tank via > the injector return lines. The other advantage is that all the time > you are running your donk, you are polishing your fuel, but if it's > plumbed into the main tank you end up pumping more into your day > tank (admittedly not a helluva lot more effort) but you are > polishing fuel and dumping it into a larger volume of material > (fuel) haveing less net effect, but if you return it to your day > tank, then you are just making sure that your fuel is getting the > best cleaning possible (witht the same set up). > > > > > > > > One more little ditty. When you plumb the lines (ya, 1/2" is a > bit over sized = good) from the day tank to your primary filters, > put a "y" in there, and install a second primary filter in parallel. > be sure to put ball valves on both sides of both filters so the one > you are not using can be entirely secluded from your operating > system. A bit of pelavaer, but set up this way, if you ever get a > clogged filter (always at the worst possible time eh), then, > provided you always have a clean filter - with the side that is not > in use, bled & ready to go, if the filter you have in operation > cloggs & the donk begins to sputter, you can switch over to your > spare filter & carry on. > > > > > > > > If you can get a drain right in the very bottom of your day > tank where you mentioned you have a depression, so much the better > then to clean up the worst of the crap, it's just the turn of a > valve, but don't forget to tie it off with wire so it only comes > open when you want it. > > > > > > > > What is it they say, 99.9% of all failures with diesels are > related to the cleanliness of fuel. > > > > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Water tank > > > > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@ theboilerflue > > > > Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:08 am (PST) > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a day 12 gallon day tank hung off the underside of my > cockpit which gravity feeds in the engine so don't have to worry > about sucking fuel out of the main fuel tank while healed also most > of the time when you're running the engine you aren't healed right > over unless you're motor sailing. The fuel pickup in my tank is a > 1/2" pipe that extends down to the back edge of the tank so it > leaves the bottom-middle depression for water/gunk accumulation so i > think to be sucking air the tank would have to be pretty close to > the level where one wouldn't want to use the fuel in the tank anyway > due to contamination. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options > in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22223|22211|2010-01-21 16:46:42|wild_explorer|Re: fuel tanks|This is the link for gasket materials suitable for use with diesel/bio-diesel fuel http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/Materials_Compatibility.pdf Short extract from this document: Neoprene - NOT RECOMMENDED Teflon Relatively no changes in hardness or swell Nylon 6/6 Relatively no changes in hardness or swell Nitrile Hardness was reduced approximately 20 percent; swell increased approximately 17 to 18 percent Viton A401-C Relatively no changes in hardness or swell Viton GFLT Relatively no changes in hardness or swell Fluorosilicon Hardness is relatively unchanged; swell increased approximately 7 percent Polyurethane Hardness is relatively unchanged; swell increased approximately 6 percent Polypropylene Hardness was reduced approximately 10 percent; swell increased from 8 to 15 percent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Brent & Gord, > I stand corrected. you are quite correct, Nitrile it is! thanks for catching it. | 22224|22211|2010-01-21 20:02:08|Denis Buggy|Re: fuel tanks|RE FUEL ISSUES. a vacuum gauge will not work for your fuel filters as---------- the suction is always between the lift pump and tank only. the fuel then passes at aprox 30 psi to the injector pump via the filters and water trap . the fuel should then be used by the injector pump and the excess will break the seal on the non return valve ( steel ball bearing with spring behind ) and return preferably to the diesel tank----------- however a bad system will send fuel back to the fuel filter and an even worse system will bleed of the excess from the injectors which sometimes contain air to the filters also . the best system will have a large LARGE AS BIG AS YOU CAN GET water trap before the filters and after the lift pump . the best have a large glass bowl below the water trap and a tap/screw to vent water while the engine is running and all fuel not required will return to the tank . the importance of the large water trap is to allow slow movement of fuel in order to give water a chance to separate naturally as it want to do anyway however anything less than a liter in size for a small engine will simply rush the fuel and is a waste of money ( availible from scrap trucks/ buses/ equipment ). the engines which constantly return a large quantity to the fuel tanks are the best as the fuel undergoes POLISHING as it is circulated through the filters more than once -this is a big help in keeping the algae away . my solution with our commercial tanks is to drain or suck the bottom 10 gals from each tank now and again the busy ones are clean and anything left parked occasionally has algae and water at the bottom . we have never used biocide in 60 years . cleaning a tank is the best solution in conjunction with a deep DEEP water trap. you can buy fuel moniters for home tanks which are not expensive . a cheap and good solution would be to use a sender unit from a toyota or honda or other car with quality electrics and you must match it with the originial gauge as the work by earth ristisance and sender and gauge are matched and must stay matched -this would be something you could trust and you simply bend th arm with the plastic float to match your tank . a good tank has a well below the suction pipe in order that solids are not sucked up and it allows the tank to retain rubbish in one area only . regards denis buggy This is true for "home made" view/sight window in the tank made from regular glass or plastic. If you use visual gauges/windows from industrial equipment (pressure tanks, chemical, etc), it has different glass in it than "windows" glass. It is high strength, high temperature and very thick. If you take/cut it out from such equipment found in scrap yards and put/weld it to your tank, you should not have any problems even in case of fire. Just do not use low temperature gasket to seal such window to the tank. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A clear sight glass in the side of a tank is a fire hazard. That's why I got rid of mine. A window in the top of the tank is far less of a fire hazard ,as if it melts in a fire it doesn't let he fuel run out, and there is not enough air in the tank to keep it burning. It can't go anywhere. > A vacuum guage in your fuel line will let you know when your filtres need changing. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22225|22211|2010-01-21 20:29:08|markh|Re: fuel tanks|We use somethiong called "Humout" for tanks sitting over the winter--seems to work well. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: fuel tanks Using too much Biocide can clog filters. It can turn to jelly. I crewed on a boat which had this problem after the skipper added Biobore one day. I suspect he added too much. We had no problem with clogged filters but kept clogging them up after that. We had to get rid of over 200 gallons of fuel and then clean the tank of a pink scum which had coated all the surfaces of the tank. Not much fun in a rolling anchorage. I would only use what is recommended. If there is no water in the fuel, the algae can't grow so first line of defense is to prevent the water from getting into the tank and using good water separating filters which are checked often. I fill my day tank by pumping air into the main tank in the keel through the vent line with a dinghy pump. I have a Tee in the vent line with a couple of ball valves to shut off the vent and open to the air pump. No pumps are then needed in the fuel line and its a cheap and reliable system. 3 psi will lift fuel over 7 feet. You just have to make sure you don't use too much pressure. With the thick steel of the main tank being integral to the hull, 3 psi is no problem. Cheers, Paul brentswain38 wrote: > > > One should use lots of bug killer in ones diesel fuel , often. > A clear sight glass in the side of a tank is a fire hazard. That's why > I got rid of mine. A window in the top of the tank is far less of a > fire hazard ,as if it melts in a fire it doesn't let he fuel run out, > and there is not enough air in the tank to keep it burning. It can't > go anywhere. > A vacuum guage in your fuel line will let you know when your filtres > need changing. . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22226|22211|2010-01-21 22:14:52|brentswain38|Re: fuel tanks|A vacuum gauge will tell you the condition of the filtres you have before it gets to the final filtre on the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > > > RE FUEL ISSUES. > > a vacuum gauge will not work for your fuel filters as---------- the suction is always between the lift pump and tank only. > the fuel then passes at aprox 30 psi to the injector pump via the filters and water trap . > the fuel should then be used by the injector pump and the excess will break the seal on the non return valve ( steel ball bearing with spring behind ) and return preferably to the diesel tank----------- however a bad system will send fuel back to the fuel filter and an even worse system will bleed of the excess from the injectors which sometimes contain air to the filters also . > the best system will have a large LARGE AS BIG AS YOU CAN GET water trap before the filters and after the lift pump . the best have a large glass bowl below the water trap and a tap/screw to vent water while the engine is running and all fuel not required will return to the tank . > the importance of the large water trap is to allow slow movement of fuel in order to give water a chance to separate naturally as it want to do anyway however anything less than a liter in size for a small engine will simply rush the fuel and is a waste of money ( availible from scrap trucks/ buses/ equipment ). > the engines which constantly return a large quantity to the fuel tanks are the best as the fuel undergoes POLISHING as it is circulated through the filters more than once -this is a big help in keeping the algae away . > my solution with our commercial tanks is to drain or suck the bottom 10 gals from each tank now and again the busy ones are clean and anything left parked occasionally has algae and water at the bottom . we have never used biocide in 60 years . cleaning a tank is the best solution in conjunction with a deep DEEP water trap. > you can buy fuel moniters for home tanks which are not expensive . > a cheap and good solution would be to use a sender unit from a toyota or honda or other car with quality electrics and you must match it with the originial gauge as the work by earth ristisance and sender and gauge are matched and must stay matched -this would be something you could trust and you simply bend th arm with the plastic float to match your tank . > a good tank has a well below the suction pipe in order that solids are not sucked up and it allows the tank to retain rubbish in one area only . > regards denis buggy > > > > > > > This is true for "home made" view/sight window in the tank made from regular glass or plastic. > > If you use visual gauges/windows from industrial equipment (pressure tanks, chemical, etc), it has different glass in it than "windows" glass. It is high strength, high temperature and very thick. If you take/cut it out from such equipment found in scrap yards and put/weld it to your tank, you should not have any problems even in case of fire. Just do not use low temperature gasket to seal such window to the tank. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > A clear sight glass in the side of a tank is a fire hazard. That's why I got rid of mine. A window in the top of the tank is far less of a fire hazard ,as if it melts in a fire it doesn't let he fuel run out, and there is not enough air in the tank to keep it burning. It can't go anywhere. > > A vacuum guage in your fuel line will let you know when your filtres need changing. . > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22227|22211|2010-01-21 23:02:45|theboilerflue|the diesel critter pandemic|thanks for the info I'll make sure to take medicine when I get to the tropics and fill my big tank, I can't imagine I'll use it until I head offshore as the day tank should do for the coastal areas where one is within a day or two of fuel docks. The day tank I got came already spray foamed so that should stop most condensation inside it. > If you are going to have enough fuel to run the donk for 8 days you want to keep that fuel in good shape. Brent can tell you much more about condensation and that, but having had the diesel bug (christ what a hasstle!), man you do NOT want it. The diesel bug is basically the diesel being broken down by microbes & is on it's way back to nature. it starts where water touches the diesel & the water will be of course on the bottom. > Black, or green, stringy or crystaline, just ugly and comes in many forms, all of which you will notice. I believe the devil has a 'special' form waiting just for each & every one of us if you give it a chance. > > To make god damned sure you dont' get the bug and to keep your fuel in good shape, 3 things: > 1. DO have a way of removing the water from the bottom of your main tanks- this can be as simple as having the lowest point in your main tanks directly below the filler and sucking the crap ouf of the tank with a pvc tube & a wet & dry vacuum ($40 at Cambodian tire for a small one) > 2. Do have a simple system to polish your fuel in the main tank. Maybe this could be something simple & cheap using what you already have, in that you could have a byepass after your 2 primary filters between your day tank and your lift pump that goes back to your main fuel tanks, you could pump fuel up into your day tank (12 gals or about 50 litres you sed?) and run it back into your main fuel tank - through your primary filters. get in the habbit to do it regularly. plumbing it like this may also help in bleeding the system after a filter change. oh ya, have heaps of filters & buy them by the case > 3. use a product called "Bio-bore" that prevents the bug. It will NOT stop the bug once it has started but it will prevent the bug. > > Don't know if you've ever seen the bug, grows much faster in the tropics cuz it's warmer, but it does happen herer in the great white north, and believe me man, you don't want it. > > > > written by Brent > > Shane > Good points. I used a guzzler for my lavac head. What an abortion. They made sure you can't improvise on their rubber parts, so you have to buy their parts, a problem when mine failed crossing the equator south of Xmas Island. No guzzler dealerships out there. > I wouldn't recommend Guzzlers for anything. > One client used a rotary agricultural pump which are made for diesel, permanently mounted under the cockpit seat. Neoprene can have problems with long term use in diesel.I've seen it disolve in diesel. Nitrile is better only available on rotary farm pumps. > > > Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue > Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:24 am (PST) > > > yeah a way to sketch stuff would be great but trying to draw anything on a computer with a touch pad is a little tough. What I was trying to say is that the tank is kinda the shape of two narrow tall pyramids stacked base to base with each of their points cut off. So two 1/3 depth x width x height. Whether it's 60 or 180 gallons I not too worried the engine I've got (22hp yanmar 3 cylinder) can't burn through more than half a gallon an hour so even with modest estimates it still gives me a range of about 8 solid days of motoring, maybe 1000 miles? something I hope to never have to do. > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > | 22228|22197|2010-01-21 23:10:55|theboilerflue|Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank|oops.. mine's a Whale Gusher not a Guzzler an easy mistake they look almost identical from their website. I haven't taken the new plastic one apart but Judy and Doug gave me a couple older aluminium ones of which the diaphragms were both busted on, and the valves look pretty easy to fabricate out of some inner tube or maybe nitrle? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Guzzler is a brand name for a small hand operated diaphragm bilge pump, similar in shape to the one in my book, but a piece of plastic crap. | 22229|22211|2010-01-21 23:23:55|theboilerflue|Re: fuel tanks|I thought about doing this when I was in the build stage cause it's so simple, I decided against it due to concerns about the tank flexing and welds cracking over time, maybe I'll give it a try sometime I figured I'd need more like 10 psi but if all one needs is a couple of pounds.... it is 1/4" plate after all. That is how I "plan to" pump out my sewage tank but it's a small beer keg and so I figure it's built for pressure. Yeah the pressure gauge will screw right into the filtered side of my filter housing... adding it to the list. > I fill my day tank by pumping air into the main tank in the keel through > the vent line with a dinghy pump. I have a Tee in the vent line with a > couple of ball valves to shut off the vent and open to the air pump. No > pumps are then needed in the fuel line and its a cheap and reliable > system. 3 psi will lift fuel over 7 feet. You just have to make sure > you don't use too much pressure. With the thick steel of the main tank > being integral to the hull, 3 psi is no problem. > > > A vacuum guage in your fuel line will let you know when your filtres > > need changing. . | 22230|22211|2010-01-21 23:36:28|theboilerflue|Re: fuel tanks|maybe an idea would be to put in a small pump and filter that just circulates the fuel in the main tank while the engine runs. just to polish the fuel and prevent water and bugs from accumulating in your tank?| 22231|22211|2010-01-22 03:48:19|David Frantz|Re: fuel tanks|Has anybody tried a short wave length UV source? At work such are used in part of the water purification system. The newer technologies use lower power light sources. Of course a big negative is that the sources are very dangerous if you are not careful. The idea would be to keep the growth from happening in the first place. That should greatly reduce the impact on the filter system. I really don't know if this would work in combo with diesel fuel. Frankly I've never seen any indication that it has benn tried commercially. Maybe it doesn't work or maybe the tradition is to simply use filtering because you have to have it anyways. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:31 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > maybe an idea would be to put in a small pump and filter that just > circulates the fuel in the main tank while the engine runs. just to > polish the fuel and prevent water and bugs from accumulating in your > tank? > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22232|22211|2010-01-22 05:34:05|Paul Wilson|Re: fuel tanks|1 psi of water equals 27.7 inches of water. Since fuel is lighter than water ( about 80 percent of the weight of water), 3 psi would be enough to raise the fuel at least 83 inches or about 7 feet. I have been doing it for over 18 years without a problem. I finally fitted a gauge in the line after many years but when filling with a dinghy pump you quickly get a feel for how much pressure you are putting into the tank. Cheers, Paul theboilerflue wrote: > > > I thought about doing this when I was in the build stage cause it's so > simple, I decided against it due to concerns about the tank flexing > and welds cracking over time, maybe I'll give it a try sometime I > figured I'd need more like 10 psi but if all one needs is a couple of > pounds.... it is 1/4" plate after all. That is how I "plan to" pump > out my sewage tank but it's a small beer keg and so I figure it's > built for pressure. > > Yeah the pressure gauge will screw right into the filtered side of my > filter housing... adding it to the list. > > > I fill my day tank by pumping air into the main tank in the keel > through > > the vent line with a dinghy pump. I have a Tee in the vent line with a > > couple of ball valves to shut off the vent and open to the air pump. No > > pumps are then needed in the fuel line and its a cheap and reliable > > system. 3 psi will lift fuel over 7 feet. You just have to make sure > > you don't use too much pressure. With the thick steel of the main tank > > being integral to the hull, 3 psi is no problem. > > > > > > A vacuum guage in your fuel line will let you know when your filtres > > > need changing. . > > | 22233|22233|2010-01-22 11:35:24|SHANE ROTHWELL|Fuel tanks|Hey Haiden, Do go to the trouble of putting a ball valve on top and bottom of your vinl sight glass. not only easier to replace, but a very basic safety issue as if there is ever a fire... this way you can isolate the vinl and open the valves only when you need a reading. If you only have one primary filter and it cloggs... for Maybe $25 it's not worth the risk going without. YOu can do it cheap with Princess Auto. Dont' count on a bank error in your favor. You are not dealing with human beings. If they could get 2 cents for your balls, you'd be a unich. 1/4" fittings on the day tank eh?? I thought you said you had 1/2" fuel lines from day tank to primaries & right through to the donk? I went with 1/4" lines on a small day tank on my boat years ago & did dammage to the gen set by starving it for fuel. if it's only 1/4" for guages etc no worries but you want no restriction on fuel to the filters and thereafter Bleeding the system a bit messy eh. Good, a slight coating (wiped up, not flowing as then it's a fire hazard) of diesel on everything in the engine room keeps bolts from corroding Brents suggestion of vacuum guage to see if filters need changeing is a good one. then you know where you stand at a glance Dennis mentioned 60 years with no bug killer. Quite possible, but he's in Scotland isnt he? And ashore with a maintainance crew isn't he? Sounds like the guy is meticulous which is the ideal situation with diesel, prevention being preferable to cure, but Cheap insurance to err on the side of caution, use biobore (it's the only one I know of that works). The Wank suggested ethonol, or whatever, but as usual, it's having a wet dream. Markh suggested using food coloring in the fuel. Slick, never heard of that but helluva good idea. being water soluble it would not mix with the diesel. the cost is nada, just dont get the stuff in your food, does horrible things to you & about as far from natural as it gets, humans were not designed to ingest such garbage. Cheers, Shane Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:31 am (PST) I just used 1/4" vinyl hose as a sight gauge attached to a SS pipe nibble at the top and bottom of the tank. I was told that I'd get yellow and brittle and I'll have to replace it every once and a while but it's a day tank so that should be a problem, would have been nice to put valves in each nipple I guess...... . Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank Posted by: "theboilerflue" haidan@... theboilerflue Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am (PST) Yeah I didn't realize how much fuel is returned but luckily I plumbed it into the day tank, actually it goes right back into the filter housing on the tank side. I was wondering about the gusher pump rubber I'll have to change mine... or check to see if it's neoprene. This day tank system definitely simplifies things for sure ie. less things to go wrong. I mounted the gusher pump in the bilge under the pilot house floor. Good idea with the second filter, at some time when that bank error in my flavour happens I'll get another one, my engine primes pretty easily but still is a little messy. My day tank I got from someone down island and it's pretty nicely made, looks like the guy bent a sheet of SS into a half circle capped each end and the top and he put in 1/4" nipples for a sight gauge a fill, a vent at the top corner, pickup into the side so the tank has maybe a gallon or so below the pickup and a drain right in the bottom. Brent wrote: One should use lots of bug killer in ones diesel fuel , often. A clear sight glass in the side of a tank is a fire hazard. That's why I got rid of mine. A window in the top of the tank is far less of a fire hazard ,as if it melts in a fire it doesn't let he fuel run out, and there is not enough air in the tank to keep it burning. It can't go anywhere. A vacuum guage in your fuel line will let you know when your filtres need changing. . Re: fuel tanks Posted by: "markh" mhamill1@... sunbearone Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:13 am (PST) To easily SEE if there is water in your fuel be it gas or diesel add drops of food coloring to the tank--when it hits the water if present it turns the water the color of the food coloring. Works very well for me in my OB gas tanks. Straining the fuel through oil absorber pads will get rid of nasty bits and can be quite an eyeopener as to how dirty some fuel providers tanks are--such as our local marina tanks. __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 22234|22211|2010-01-22 13:22:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: fuel tanks|On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 03:47:31AM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > Has anybody tried a short wave length UV source? My wife and I looked at one at the St. Pete boat show last year, about $3k for the complete setup. It was mostly aimed at the powerboat market, though: powered by 120VAC, and not shy about sucking down the juice. Nifty idea in theory; in practice - well, you have to couple a significant amount of energy to kill stuff, right? So, you have to put out a lot of UV - and you have to put out even more to account for both the UV generator inefficiency and loss during transmission. Possibly a reasonable solution if you have unlimited energy (even so, where does the dead algae, etc., go?); not such a great idea for cruising sailboats. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22235|22197|2010-01-22 15:20:13|brentswain38|Re: Fuel tankage/Day tank|Whales are infinitely better pumps than guzzlers --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > oops.. mine's a Whale Gusher not a Guzzler an easy mistake they look almost identical from their website. I haven't taken the new plastic one apart but Judy and Doug gave me a couple older aluminium ones > of which the diaphragms were both busted on, and the valves look pretty easy to fabricate out of some inner tube or maybe nitrle? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Guzzler is a brand name for a small hand operated diaphragm bilge pump, similar in shape to the one in my book, but a piece of plastic crap. > | 22236|22233|2010-01-22 16:16:47|wild_explorer|Re: Fuel tanks|Ethanol is widely used in fuels (including diesel) behind Polar Circle and Antarctica to get rid of water in fuel tanks. Water in the tank is MUCH bigger problem there than just algae growing. You will not be able to start engine if water freezes (not issue on a boat). Mixing water with Ethanol allows to burn such mix in the engine if it gets there. Ethanol will kill bacterias and algae in water/fuel. You can find Ethanol in most marine supply stores (used for stoves/burners) and anywhere else. What a point to buy some fancy products? You can use Ethanol much wider (as disinfectant for water and fuel, as medicine, have a good drink with friends, etc) P.S. Shane, are enjoying your profanity again? Just do not mix it with your technical advises... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hey Haiden, The Wank suggested ethonol, or whatever, but as usual, it's having a wet dream. > | 22237|22211|2010-01-22 16:23:14|David Frantz|Re: fuel tanks|That would certainly have been an issue with older systems, but today you can get UV emitting LEDs. As to the power required to kill the bugs I'm not sure what would be needed my thought is that if you hooked an LED up to a solar panel you could get 12 hours of treatment fairly cheap. The idea being to use constant radiation in place of high intensity. As to the algea and other dead stuff that is an issue but this won't eliminate the need for filtering. Instead it would act to limit growth like an electronic biocide. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jan 22, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 03:47:31AM -0500, David Frantz wrote: >> Has anybody tried a short wave length UV source? > > My wife and I looked at one at the St. Pete boat show last year, about > $3k for the complete setup. It was mostly aimed at the powerboat > market, > though: powered by 120VAC, and not shy about sucking down the juice. > > Nifty idea in theory; in practice - well, you have to couple a > significant amount of energy to kill stuff, right? So, you have to put > out a lot of UV - and you have to put out even more to account for > both > the UV generator inefficiency and loss during transmission. Possibly a > reasonable solution if you have unlimited energy (even so, where does > the dead algae, etc., go?); not such a great idea for cruising > sailboats. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22238|22211|2010-01-22 18:43:10|wild_explorer|Re: fuel tanks|You will need to get high power UV LED with wave length 200 nm-400 nm (e.g. are used to inactivate noxious microorganisms). To limit power consumption, it will need high frequency modulator with variable pulse modulation. Such device will need liquid-tight enclosure (submersible if inside the tank - more likely quartz glass to limit absorption of UV by enclosure) to focus UV energy for more efficiency and run liquid trough it. It is possible to use just pipe and mount LED's facing inside of pipe (for use with water only). How much power is enough to kill microorganisms? What will be effective production of such device? This are other questions. Looks too complicated. There are several patents related to this subject. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > That would certainly have been an issue with older systems, but today > you can get UV emitting LEDs. As to the power required to kill the > bugs I'm not sure what would be needed my thought is that if you > hooked an LED up to a solar panel you could get 12 hours of treatment > fairly cheap. The idea being to use constant radiation in place of > high intensity. > > As to the algea and other dead stuff that is an issue but this won't > eliminate the need for filtering. Instead it would act to limit > growth like an electronic biocide. | 22239|22211|2010-01-22 20:52:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: fuel tanks|On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 04:22:07PM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > That would certainly have been an issue with older systems, but today > you can get UV emitting LEDs. As to the power required to kill the > bugs I'm not sure what would be needed my thought is that if you > hooked an LED up to a solar panel you could get 12 hours of treatment > fairly cheap. The idea being to use constant radiation in place of > high intensity. I suspect that this wouldn't work any better than substituting 10 hours of sun-tanning for a 1/2-second burst from a flamethrower. :) Given the volume of an average fuel tank, you can't use UV to do anything with the fuel stored in it - which means that you have to work with it in some restricted channel, e.g., where the fuel comes out of the tank. This also means that the fuel will be moving through that channel at a pretty good clip - the narrower the channel, the faster it'll have to move, right? All of *that* means that your UV rig will shine on any given ounce of fuel for only a fraction of a second. In short, unless you really blast the hell out of it while you have the chance, there's no way that you'll kill anything in it. > As to the algea and other dead stuff that is an issue but this won't > eliminate the need for filtering. Instead it would act to limit > growth like an electronic biocide. Reasonable. For the moment, though, the chemical treatment does all of that and doesn't require either a) paying thousands of dollars for the initial setup or b) gobs of (expensively manufactured) power. The UV approach doesn't have anything to match that. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22240|22233|2010-01-22 22:08:17|theboilerflue|Re: Fuel tanks|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hey Haiden, > Do go to the trouble of putting a ball valve on top and bottom of your vinl sight glass. not only easier to replace, but a very basic safety issue as if there is ever a fire... this way you can isolate the vinl and open the valves only when you need a reading. > Yeah I had that exact thought last night when I returned to the boat, I will next time I empty the tank low enough. > If you only have one primary filter and it cloggs... for Maybe $25 it's not worth the risk going without. YOu can do it cheap with Princess Auto. The filter housings are the expensive things not the filters or does princess auto just sell them really really cheap, the housings I priced out around town here were more like 150-300 > > Dont' count on a bank error in your favor. You are not dealing with human beings. If they could get 2 cents for your balls, you'd be a unich. > I'm just saying that I'm trying to get out sailing on a budget of about 0 right now so I have to prioritize - it is high on the list however. I worked pretty steady for a about 2 months or so until the end of December at which time things kinda dried up much like my savings, until then I hadn't really worked (for money) since March 07. When put the boat in the water I had 200 hundred bucks left or so, so one bit at a time, im checking things off the list. > 1/4" fittings on the day tank eh?? I thought you said you had 1/2" fuel lines from day tank to primaries & right through to the donk? I went with 1/4" lines on a small day tank on my boat years ago & did dammage to the gen set by starving it for fuel. if it's only 1/4" for guages etc no worries but you want no restriction on fuel to the filters and thereafter > Uh no the day tank has all sorts of size fittings let's see if I can remember at the top of the tank theres a 1 1/2" fill , 1/2" vent, two 1/4" for the sight glass, pickup is 1" and the drain at the bottom is 1" > Bleeding the system a bit messy eh. Good, a slight coating (wiped up, not flowing as then it's a fire hazard) of diesel on everything in the engine room keeps bolts from corroding sure my feeling exactly, It can get a little smoky if there's too much however.... and there's no E in my name everyone makes that mistake.| 22241|22233|2010-01-22 22:12:59|theboilerflue|Re: Fuel tanks|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > Mixing water with Ethanol allows to burn such mix in the engine if it gets there. Does the ethanol also stop the water fromclogging ones injectors? > P.S. Shane, are enjoying your profanity again? Just do not mix it with your technical advises... > Hawr hawr, always a good source of entertainment though, some people watch days of there lives or survivor I just subscribe to this listserv| 22242|22211|2010-01-22 22:19:38|theboilerflue|Re: fuel tanks|I imagine you could rig it too run only when you use the engine so as not to drain the battery but you'd have to run the engine fairly frequently for that to work. But those UV LEDs should work it theory I imagine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > That would certainly have been an issue with older systems, but today > you can get UV emitting LEDs. As to the power required to kill the > bugs I'm not sure what would be needed my thought is that if you > hooked an LED up to a solar panel you could get 12 hours of treatment > fairly cheap. The idea being to use constant radiation in place of > high intensity. > > As to the algea and other dead stuff that is an issue but this won't > eliminate the need for filtering. Instead it would act to limit > growth like an electronic biocide. > > > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Jan 22, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 03:47:31AM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > >> Has anybody tried a short wave length UV source? > > > > My wife and I looked at one at the St. Pete boat show last year, about > > $3k for the complete setup. It was mostly aimed at the powerboat > > market, > > though: powered by 120VAC, and not shy about sucking down the juice. > > > > Nifty idea in theory; in practice - well, you have to couple a > > significant amount of energy to kill stuff, right? So, you have to put > > out a lot of UV - and you have to put out even more to account for > > both > > the UV generator inefficiency and loss during transmission. Possibly a > > reasonable solution if you have unlimited energy (even so, where does > > the dead algae, etc., go?); not such a great idea for cruising > > sailboats. > > > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 22243|22211|2010-01-22 22:20:29|theboilerflue|Re: fuel tanks|> I suspect that this wouldn't work any better than substituting 10 hours > of sun-tanning for a 1/2-second burst from a flamethrower. :) Actually Ben a 1/2 second burst of flame burns, at least my skin way better than sitting out in the sun all day does, but you're probably right it'd take quite a blast to kill things in a big tank like mine.| 22244|22233|2010-01-22 22:57:59|James Pronk|Re: Fuel tanks|Hey Haiden Would the housing for a VW jetta fuel filter work for you? I could send one your way if it is still available. James __________________________________________________________________ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22245|22211|2010-01-23 01:27:50|Paul Wilson|Re: fuel tanks|Why not use one of the magnetic fuel cleaners to help clean the fuel. They require no power and should never need cleaning. I have heard good reports about them. There are quite a few different models now.....here are a couple: http://www.diesel-fuels.com/algae-x/magnetic-fuel-conditioning.php http://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page462.html Paul wild_explorer wrote: > > > You will need to get high power UV LED with wave length 200 nm-400 nm > (e.g. are used to inactivate noxious microorganisms). To limit power > consumption, it will need high frequency modulator with variable pulse > modulation. Such device will need liquid-tight enclosure (submersible > if inside the tank - more likely quartz glass to limit absorption of > UV by enclosure) to focus UV energy for more efficiency and run liquid > trough it. > > It is possible to use just pipe and mount LED's facing inside of pipe > (for use with water only). > > How much power is enough to kill microorganisms? What will be > effective production of such device? This are other questions. > > Looks too complicated. There are several patents related to this subject. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , David Frantz > wrote: > > > > That would certainly have been an issue with older systems, but today > > you can get UV emitting LEDs. As to the power required to kill the > > bugs I'm not sure what would be needed my thought is that if you > > hooked an LED up to a solar panel you could get 12 hours of treatment > > fairly cheap. The idea being to use constant radiation in place of > > high intensity. > > > > As to the algea and other dead stuff that is an issue but this won't > > eliminate the need for filtering. Instead it would act to limit > > growth like an electronic biocide. > > __._,_ > > | 22246|22211|2010-01-23 02:24:24|wild_explorer|Re: fuel tanks|You can make one by yourself using magnet removed from magnetron of old microwave oven and rare-earth magnets from old computer's hard drives for such device. BE CAREFUL - old style magnetrones have toxic parts. I just do not see how magnetic field is going to clean diesel fuel from nasty non-magnetic particles. It can improve fuel quality before combustion - yes... But cleaning and restoring fuel??? Looks like placebo pill... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Why not use one of the magnetic fuel cleaners to help clean the fuel. > They require no power and should never need cleaning. I have heard good > reports about them. There are quite a few different models now.....here > are a couple: > > http://www.diesel-fuels.com/algae-x/magnetic-fuel-conditioning.php > > http://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page462.html > > Paul | 22247|22111|2010-01-23 02:34:17|wild_explorer|Re: Water tank|Here is original link for answer to question "Water doesn't spoil, but why do some water bottles have expiration dates?" http://www.ccmr.cornell.edu/education/ask/index.html?quid=791 I put some highlights here too: As long as a bottle of water stays unopened, it is safe to drink. The taste however can change over the course of time. The plastic of the container can make the taste go bad when it is not stored properly. Also, sunlight can deteriorate the plastic and add to the bad flavor. Many gases are able to pass through plastics, which can affect the taste of bottled water. It is recommended that when a bottle of water is opened, it is used within two weeks, because algae or bacteria can start to grow and will cause health risks. So bottled water doesn't spoil when unopened, but the taste can change over time and some states require an expiration date. That's why bottled water has an expiration date. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mann wrote: > > Wild > What if the water is not in a sealed container? and sloshing through > baffles? | 22248|22211|2010-01-23 02:56:24|Paul Wilson|Re: fuel tanks|I know of several diesel mechanics that swear the magnet devices work. I have seen the before and after of fuel samples at boat shows and it was impressive. They kill the bacteria and don't work by pulling out "magnetic" particles in the fuel. If they did, they would collect the crap and need to be periodically cleaned, which they don't. I think the magnets screw up the bacteria by polarizing them which kills them but it doesn't actually filter them out. You still need to use your regular filters. I have no idea if a normal magnet scavenged from something else would work or not. You may be right about the claims of increased mileage or better stability giving gains in efficiency being bogus. Personally, I would only think of the magnets as an aid to killing or preventing bacteria. More from Wikipedia which talks of UV, bacteria and algae in diesel fuel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_fuel#Algae.2C_microbes.2C_and_water_contamination Cheers, Paul wild_explorer wrote: > > > You can make one by yourself using magnet removed from magnetron of > old microwave oven and rare-earth magnets from old computer's hard > drives for such device. BE CAREFUL - old style magnetrones have toxic > parts. > > I just do not see how magnetic field is going to clean diesel fuel > from nasty non-magnetic particles. It can improve fuel quality before > combustion - yes... But cleaning and restoring fuel??? Looks like > placebo pill... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Why not use one of the magnetic fuel cleaners to help clean the fuel. > > They require no power and should never need cleaning. I have heard good > > reports about them. There are quite a few different models now.....here > > are a couple: > > > > http://www.diesel-fuels.com/algae-x/magnetic-fuel-conditioning.php > > > > > http://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page462.html > > > > > Paul > > > | 22249|22233|2010-01-23 04:11:48|wild_explorer|Re: Fuel tanks|Short answer is - Yes. I made a page here: http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats-engine/web/properties-of-diesel-fuel-and-related-liquids Surface tension of Diesel/Ethanol/Water are 25/22.4/72.9 The addition of even a few percent of ethanol to water sharply reduces the surface tension of water. There is a link for 95% Ethanol blend fuel for diesel engines there too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > Does the ethanol also stop the water fromclogging ones injectors? > | 22250|22211|2010-01-23 04:23:53|wild_explorer|Re: fuel tanks|Looks like a good DIY project. Do you have diesel engine and tank? It would be pretty easy to make and test magnetic device for diesel fuel treatment. You will not find more powerful (natural) magnets than Rare-Earth magnets. I would be interested in test results. Passing fuel trough magnets DOES improve igniting characteristics of fuel (confirmed easier cold start). May be it affects microorganisms too ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I know of several diesel mechanics that swear the magnet devices work. > I have seen the before and after of fuel samples at boat shows and it > was impressive. They kill the bacteria and don't work by pulling out > "magnetic" particles in the fuel. If they did, they would collect the > crap and need to be periodically cleaned, which they don't. I think the > magnets screw up the bacteria by polarizing them which kills them but it > doesn't actually filter them out. You still need to use your regular > filters. I have no idea if a normal magnet scavenged from something > else would work or not. > > You may be right about the claims of increased mileage or better > stability giving gains in efficiency being bogus. Personally, I would > only think of the magnets as an aid to killing or preventing bacteria. > > More from Wikipedia which talks of UV, bacteria and algae in diesel fuel: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_fuel#Algae.2C_microbes.2C_and_water_contamination | 22251|22211|2010-01-23 06:27:45|Paul Wilson|Re: fuel tanks|Sorry, I have the diesel and tank but not the time or the will to experiment. With units available relatively cheap that have (I assume) the bugs worked out of them, I doubt mixing an expensive diesel/ crappy fuel and an experimental filter is all that wise. One has to pick ones priorities. Paul wild_explorer wrote: > > > Looks like a good DIY project. Do you have diesel engine and tank? It > would be pretty easy to make and test magnetic device for diesel fuel > treatment. You will not find more powerful (natural) magnets than > Rare-Earth magnets. I would be interested in test results. > > > | 22252|22233|2010-01-23 11:20:31|SHANE ROTHWELL|Fuel tanks|Hey Haidan, Sorry for the spelling fau-pas, no offence intended. Princess Auto in Coquitlam sells filter bases for about $12.- 15 - cost you an extra $6.- for a call in order and $.60 per pound (why the hell they use pounds in this country I don't know). You can order a catalog for free, give them a call 604-777-0735. I spend heaps there and they really do stand behind their product. Filters are cheap as well, but be sure to get one that's goes down to as fine as possible. lots of people say 10 micron for diesel is fine, but if you can get it down to 2 micron you are way ahead of the game as you can't be too clean with fuel. buy a case of fuel filters & stow it away. You can also order on line & I think save the call in order fee, either way, get their catalog, well worth the call. Re the bankscum. Good. get out before it really hits the fan. Shane Haidan wrote: The filter housings are the expensive things not the filters or does princess auto just sell them really really cheap, the housings I priced out around town here were more like 150-300 I'm just saying that I'm trying to get out sailing on a budget of about 0 right now so I have to prioritize - it is high on the list however. I worked pretty steady for a about 2 months or so until the end of December at which time things kinda dried up much like my savings, until then I hadn't really worked (for money) since March 07. When put the boat in the water I had 200 hundred bucks left or so, so one bit at a time, im checking things off the list. __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 22253|22253|2010-01-23 11:24:40|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: the Fraud-u-wank,|Oi, Frauduwank, Gee, that stings....., especially so from a fraud such as yourself......."Wildexplorer".......how bloody pathetic, what parents name their childeren, or, more accurately, the names behind which those childeren attempt to hide themselves and attempt to expound with "authority". Pathetic. . By the way, keep drinking the ethanol from the marine supply outfits, it's having noticable effect. Shane The Frauduwank wrote: Ethanol is widely used in fuels (including diesel) behind Polar Circle and Antarctica to get rid of water in fuel tanks. Water in the tank is MUCH bigger problem there than just algae growing. You will not be able to start engine if water freezes (not issue on a boat). Mixing water with Ethanol allows to burn such mix in the engine if it gets there. Ethanol will kill bacterias and algae in water/fuel. You can find Ethanol in most marine supply stores (used for stoves/burners) and anywhere else. What a point to buy some fancy products? You can use Ethanol much wider (as disinfectant for water and fuel, as medicine, have a good drink with friends, etc) P.S. Shane, are enjoying your profanity again? Just do not mix it with your technical advises... __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 22254|22233|2010-01-23 11:36:24|theboilerflue|Re: Fuel tanks|sure that would work I imagine, are they separate from the engine on jettas that's kinda nice? Where are you located? can I come pick it up? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hey Haiden > Would the housing for a VW jetta fuel filter work for you? I could send one your way if it is still available. > James > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22255|22255|2010-01-23 16:11:24|Denis Buggy|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|RE MESSING WITH FUEL . do not mess with fuel and ethanol is very dangerous stuff . pre ignition caused by changing the cetane rating of diesel will if you are lucky merely burn a hole on the side of each piston skirt . you must remember all the figures are done and the engine maker is relying on you not to put anything in the engine other than standard diesel . If you even consider the simple five stages of a common rail injection process in your car you should realise any change to fuel will have disastrous consequences as the fuel is ignited five times per single ignition cycle with a little shot of diesel after the main explosion to burn the nox gases properly before they get out the exhaust . none of those stages of pre ignition will work properly with a higher rating and the fuel computer is not programmed to know what is going on. to repair any fuel system properly will cost you thousands and i know having had a faulty delivery of kerosene instead of diesel . regards denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: wild_explorer To The addition of even a few percent of ethanol to water sharply reduces the surface tension of water. There is a link for 95% Ethanol blend fuel for diesel engines there too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > Does the ethanol also stop the water fromclogging ones injectors? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22256|22211|2010-01-23 16:54:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: fuel tanks|On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 08:56:22PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I know of several diesel mechanics that swear the magnet devices work. I'm afraid that anecdotal evidence is worth exactly what you've paid for it. :) Here are some links to hard data, just from a quick Google search: The Federal Trade Commission's page on "fuel-saving devices": http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut10.shtm Has a (longish) list of devices tested by the EPA; of these, only 7 have been shown to have any effect at all. Of those, 4 create a very small improvement in fuel economy but increase emissions, and may constitute illegal tampering; the other 3 either decrease power to accessories (air conditioner, etc.) or modify your driving habits. --- The EPA's so-called "511" program for evaluating after-market devices has been testing "fuel-improving" gadgets since the early 70s, with a battery of tests designed to be as fair as possible. The UK has an equivalent called "the drive cycle". Here's a review that they conducted for the "PETRO-MIZER" fuel magnet, backed by their tests of several other devices mentioned in it: http://www.epa.gov/OMS/consumer/devices/pb83181115.pdf Their conclusion: "EPA testing of Super-Mag and Moleculetor, two devices similar to PETRO-MIZER, showed no emissions or fuel economy benefits. EPA is unaware of theories or data which could explain why exposing a hydrocarbon fuel to a magnetic field prior to induction into a combustion chamber would affect the combustion process and, thus, emissions or fuel economy." --- A professor of Automotive and Manufacturing Engineering Technology at MNSU who has spent some time debunking this stuff: http://www.mnsu.edu/news/read/?paper=topstories&id=old-1086498001 > I think the > magnets screw up the bacteria by polarizing them which kills them but it > doesn't actually filter them out. Whoops - buzzword alert! "Polarizing" is another one of those magic words that's used to mean "don't worry about what it means, just buy our gadget!" Doesn't work, I'm afraid; otherwise, all we'd have to do when we got sick is walk through a metal detector, and all the bacteria would die. No such luck. :( > More from Wikipedia which talks of UV, bacteria and algae in diesel fuel: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_fuel#Algae.2C_microbes.2C_and_water_contamination Didn't see anything in there about UV, I'm afraid. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22257|22211|2010-01-23 19:31:16|wild_explorer|Re: fuel tanks|If that company will show me simple presentation/test like: take a glass of contaminated diesel fuel - put a drop from the glass under microscope and show me alive bacterias - put fuel from such liquid in their system - cycle it through the system - put treated fuel in disinfected glass - put a drop of treated fuel under microscope - show me dead bacterias. I will be first in a line to buy such product. It is very simple device. There is no "bugs" in such unit. Magnetic field DOES affect living creatures, but will NOT kill them. Watch this (I saw it on science channel when they were talking about magnetic field and found short clips on Internet) http://www.edutube.org/en/video/levitating-frog-using-diamagnetic-levitation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-Al7GAnH8Q Frog and grasshopper are very alive while exposed to MUCH higher magnetic field that could possibly create permanent magnet. So, magnetic field does not kill. Otherwise, it would be used in medical field and food industry. They still use radiation, high temperature, high pressure, UV to kill bacterias. It would be different story, If that device could do something like this with bacterias (just smash them against housing of the device). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g5UVrOt2CI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lBxYtkh4ts&feature=related I have used magnets over rubber fuel line, just because it did not cost me anything. From old DC motor I took stator (with 2 magnets), cut it in half in horizontal direction to keep magnets intact, put it over rubber fuel line, secured it with plastic tie wraps. If it does nothing - no harm, I did not spend any money on it. As DIY project its OK, but I will not spend any money on such device unless company/seller show me the test I described in the beginning of this message. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > With units available relatively cheap that have (I assume) > the bugs worked out of them, | 22258|22255|2010-01-23 20:32:05|Gord Schnell|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|Well Denis....I'm not sure what part of the world your from...but...go farther North or South, to the colder climes and you will find EVERYONE uses alcohol in the diesel fuel. Gord On 23-Jan-10, at 1:11 PM, Denis Buggy wrote: > RE MESSING WITH FUEL . > do not mess with fuel and ethanol is very dangerous stuff . > pre ignition caused by changing the cetane rating of diesel will if > you are lucky merely burn a hole on the side of each piston skirt . > you must remember all the figures are done and the engine maker is > relying on you not to put anything in the engine other than standard > diesel . > If you even consider the simple five stages of a common rail > injection process in your car you should realise any change to fuel > will have disastrous consequences > as the fuel is ignited five times per single ignition cycle with a > little shot of diesel after the main explosion to burn the nox gases > properly before they get out the exhaust . > none of those stages of pre ignition will work properly with a > higher rating and the fuel computer is not programmed to know what > is going on. > to repair any fuel system properly will cost you thousands and i > know having had a faulty delivery of kerosene instead of diesel . > regards denis buggy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: wild_explorer > To > > The addition of even a few percent of ethanol to water sharply > reduces the surface tension of water. > > There is a link for 95% Ethanol blend fuel for diesel engines there > too. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > wrote: > > > > > > Does the ethanol also stop the water fromclogging ones injectors? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22259|22211|2010-01-23 21:50:46|theboilerflue|Re: fuel tanks|what a weird video, If I were the one doing this "test" to show the strength of the magnetic field in MRI machines I would have chosen something that wasn't stainless cause last time I came across one of those oxygen bottles in the scrap yard it wasn't very magnetic. > It would be different story, If that device could do something like this with bacterias (just smash them against housing of the device). > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g5UVrOt2CI > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lBxYtkh4ts&feature=related | 22260|22255|2010-01-23 22:11:24|wild_explorer|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|I definitely will not put such diesel engine you describe (with electronics and computers) on MY boat. I will go for "old style" bulletproof, low RPM, industrial engine with mechanical pump. It will burn almost anything compatible with it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > none of those stages of pre ignition will work properly with a higher rating and the fuel computer is not programmed to know what is going on. > to repair any fuel system properly will cost you thousands and i know having had a faulty delivery of kerosene instead of diesel . > regards denis buggy | 22261|22211|2010-01-23 23:16:00|wild_explorer|Re: fuel tanks|Looks like a good idea. Especially on a sailboat - engine does not run as often as on power boat. Just need to use 12V DC (or whatever voltage on your boat) electric fuel impeller pump mounted above main fuel tank level. Plus filter with water separator. It can be run any time when you have shore power, run engine or have solar power. Especially useful after fueling. Put fuel in the tank, run it through the filter to get rid of fuel contaminants and water. Put fuel stabilizer in a tank after it. Cycle fuel regularly through the filter. Simple maintenance. Less problems with the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > maybe an idea would be to put in a small pump and filter that just circulates the fuel in the main tank while the engine runs. just to polish the fuel and prevent water and bugs from accumulating in your tank? > | 22262|22211|2010-01-24 01:48:31|Paul Wilson|Re: fuel tanks|Hi Ben, I was a skeptic, too so I have found some better/ more appropriate links. The magnet units were developed in NZ over 20 years so maybe it is more accepted here. The US Coast Guard has done some testing and seem to like it, too. Read here and click on the links to see how it works: http://www.dieselsolutions.co.nz/how-debug-works.shtml and here http://www.dieselsolutions.co.nz/testimonials.shtml The following is the unit I saw at the boat show along with fuel samples and then purchased. I have yet to try it myself. This unit has been tested by the University of Wales. http://www.purafiner.com/proof.htm I am a little skeptical about the fuel saving claims of the magnet units....the links you gave would seem to confirm this. I am.not so skeptical about the killing of the bacteria, however. Note I am not defending the products, just repeating their claims. Everyone needs to decide for themselves. In regards to the Wikipedia link, I assumed when they talked about sunlight they meant UV. I could be wrong in my assumption. Cheers, Paul Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 08:56:22PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I know of several diesel mechanics that swear the magnet devices work. > > I'm afraid that anecdotal evidence is worth exactly what you've paid for > it. :) Here are some links to hard data, just from a quick Google > search: > > The Federal Trade Commission's page on "fuel-saving devices": > > http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut10.shtm > > > Has a (longish) list of devices tested by the EPA; of these, only 7 have > been shown to have any effect at all. Of those, 4 create a very small > improvement in fuel economy but increase emissions, and may constitute > illegal tampering; the other 3 either decrease power to accessories (air > conditioner, etc.) or modify your driving habits. > > --- > > The EPA's so-called "511" program for evaluating after-market devices > has been testing "fuel-improving" gadgets since the early 70s, with a > battery of tests designed to be as fair as possible. The UK has an > equivalent called "the drive cycle". Here's a review that they conducted > for the "PETRO-MIZER" fuel magnet, backed by their tests of several > other devices mentioned in it: > > http://www.epa.gov/OMS/consumer/devices/pb83181115.pdf > > > Their conclusion: > > "EPA testing of Super-Mag and Moleculetor, two devices similar to > PETRO-MIZER, showed no emissions or fuel economy benefits. EPA is > unaware of theories or data which could explain why exposing a > hydrocarbon fuel to a magnetic field prior to induction into a > combustion chamber would affect the combustion process and, thus, > emissions or fuel economy." > > --- > > A professor of Automotive and Manufacturing Engineering Technology at > MNSU who has spent some time debunking this stuff: > http://www.mnsu.edu/news/read/?paper=topstories&id=old-1086498001 > > > > I think the > > magnets screw up the bacteria by polarizing them which kills them > but it > > doesn't actually filter them out. > > Whoops - buzzword alert! "Polarizing" is another one of those magic > words that's used to mean "don't worry about what it means, just buy our > gadget!" Doesn't work, I'm afraid; otherwise, all we'd have to do when > we got sick is walk through a metal detector, and all the bacteria would > die. No such luck. :( > > > More from Wikipedia which talks of UV, bacteria and algae in diesel > fuel: > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_fuel#Algae.2C_microbes.2C_and_water_contamination > > > Didn't see anything in there about UV, I'm afraid. > > - > > > | 22263|22255|2010-01-24 05:55:17|Denis Buggy|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|DEAR GORD AND ALL the reason I was alarmist about fuel is that it is a nightmare area if you are inclined to become a physicist on the basis of a 30 minute fuel think in on the web . what you do is going to be ignited at approx 1200 degrees in a metal chamber which has very strict rules on how this is to happen and when . if you change the rating of the fuel it happens earlier or later -both are bad news for you and your engine . a big separate matter is the lubricant in the diesel which allows all the steel mating surfaces to move and do their job before combustion , to replace the elements in a inline pump and the injector nozzles is approx 3500.00 euros per vehicle here ----- some years ago I posted the cost of a faulty diesel delivery cost 35,000.00 euros and this involved kerosene /paraffin which has some lubricant in it . alcohol has none . re engine electronics -you cannot buy a bus or truck in Europe today without a common rail fuel system I.E. all Scandia all Volvo all Daf all Man all Mercedes engines are common rail------- in cars -all Bmw all Mercedes--Toyota --Mazda --Peugeot--Renault E.C.T. are all common rail today --and all have a computer which is by law set up for emissions control within strict parameters which do not allow any changes to the fuel as all figures and info from sensors go into the bin when you mess with fuel -------as the bog standard BMW saloon engine has computer controlled variable turbo vanes - computer controlled engine valve timing -- computer controlled metering and delivery and timing of fuel ----------all controlled by the analysing of the exhaust by the computer as smoke -- always--- always--- always means un burnt fuel there fore less fuel will be metered to the engine and more turbo boost will be admitted and the wastegate valve will be closed and if the fuel is right your arse is sucked into the seat with the acceleration -------however if you are burning lies instead of fuel expect to start walking soon . re nasty bugs in fuel and biocide ------if you remove their hotel they will leave as they need their hotel to live --DRAIN THE WATER ------from the tank . due to the existence of a land border on this island there is a lot of messing with fuel as the rules and diesel colour are different on each side of the border and boat and agricultural diesel are dyed red and sold 60% less than road diesel if you remove the dye you can make a nice profit and everything from white bread to cat litter is used to soak up the dye -- it also can be washed out using acid however this as you can expect has consequences . most people with any brains buy diesel from one filling station only and keep the receipts and make the filling station owner aware they will not leave a without receipt as all diesel shop bills tend to be settled out of court and quickly and quietly as the fuel is always the problem . the truckers here have to fit diesel heaters in the fuel filters and the tank as the warranty ends on the truck if you put anything fancy into the fuel and the computer logs the changes to the fuel and the measures the engine had to make to cope with it .. regards denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gord Schnell" To: Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel messing witches spells > Well Denis....I'm not sure what part of the world you are from . > > | 22264|22255|2010-01-24 06:28:28|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|Well ... this does not apply to Canada or Finland, where hundreds of thousands of people routinely drive trucks and cars, every day, with diesel, with std normal diesel. I have never seen anyone add anything to their diesel in Finland, and the air force certainly does not. I have filled tanks in -28C myself. Std winter diesel is rated to -29 C or - 84 F. see a good reply from many oil companies (canada) re diesel http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca/gtdproject/fluids/localdiesel.htm or from Finland http://www.st1.fi/index.php?id=221 Neste sells and guarantees their std deisel down to minus -40 C if you buy the very cold grade. http://www.neste.fi/artikkeli.aspx?path=2589%2c2655%2c2710%2c2734%2c2739%2c3361%2c3552%2c3557 Maybe with older engines, and if you dont have regular diesel service (antarctica, maybe, or spitzbergen ?) and you had an old motor, and it did not start, you might use (alcohol ? ) additives, but the normal, std methods use for about 70 years was heating the bottom of the truck. Wood fires were commonly used by the russian and german army in the first part of the century. However, todays commercial truckers dont put anything extra in their tanks. Neither do the fishing boats in Dutch Harbour. Neither did the Nordhavns on the GSSR. What boating experience, or other, do you have further up north than Rovaniemi, or Dutch Harbour or ... Since you say that everyone uses alcohol, you must be very north ... > Well Denis....I'm not sure what part of the world your from...but...go > farther North or South, to the colder climes and you will find > EVERYONE uses alcohol in the diesel fuel. > Gord > | 22265|22255|2010-01-24 06:37:35|Wally Paine|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|When dealing with a restricted national fuel supply (in Rhodesia and due to UN sanctions) the government used to mix a varying amount of ethanol in with the petrol to make ends meet. Ones engine (car) ran more or less OK until one stopped then you got a vapour bubble in the fuel pump. To get it started again I used to stretch my lips over the filler hole and blow, forcing some cool fuel into the pump and then sprint to the drivers seat and crank. One  usually got it going after a couple of attempts. I have no idea what it did in the long term to the engines. Wally Paine --- On Sat, 23/1/10, Denis Buggy wrote: From: Denis Buggy Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel messing witches spells To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 23 January, 2010, 21:11   RE MESSING WITH FUEL . do not mess with fuel and ethanol is very dangerous stuff . pre ignition caused by changing the cetane rating of diesel will if you are lucky merely burn a hole on the side of each piston skirt . you must remember all the figures are done and the engine maker is relying on you not to put anything in the engine other than standard diesel . If you even consider the simple five stages of a common rail injection process in your car you should realise any change to fuel will have disastrous consequences as the fuel is ignited five times per single ignition cycle with a little shot of diesel after the main explosion to burn the nox gases properly before they get out the exhaust . none of those stages of pre ignition will work properly with a higher rating and the fuel computer is not programmed to know what is going on. to repair any fuel system properly will cost you thousands and i know having had a faulty delivery of kerosene instead of diesel . regards denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: wild_explorer To The addition of even a few percent of ethanol to water sharply reduces the surface tension of water. There is a link for 95% Ethanol blend fuel for diesel engines there too. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > Does the ethanol also stop the water fromclogging ones injectors? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22266|22255|2010-01-24 14:08:18|Gord Schnell|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|Denis I see your email address is tagged "ie". Where are you living? It would seem you have given diesel fuel far more thought than I. Most of my exposure to diesel use is North American and limited to agricultural and heavy equipment applications...and it is a bit "time dated" as it has been a while since I concerned myself, much at all, about the quality of diesel I am burning. Looks like I will have to "update" myself. Thanks for the heads up. Gord On 24-Jan-10, at 2:55 AM, Denis Buggy wrote: > DEAR GORD AND ALL > > > the reason I was alarmist about fuel is that it is a nightmare area > if you > are inclined to become a physicist on the basis of a 30 minute > fuel think > in on the web . > what you do is going to be > ignited at > approx 1200 degrees in a metal chamber which has very strict rules > on how > this is to happen and when . > if you change the rating of the fuel it happens earlier or later - > both are > bad news for you and your engine . > a big separate matter is the lubricant in the diesel which allows > all the > steel mating surfaces to move and do their job before combustion , to > replace the elements in a inline pump and the injector nozzles is > approx > 3500.00 euros per vehicle here ----- some years ago I posted the > cost of a > faulty diesel delivery cost 35,000.00 euros and this involved > kerosene > /paraffin which has some lubricant in it . > alcohol has none . > re engine electronics -you cannot buy a > bus or > truck in Europe today without a common rail fuel system I.E. all > Scandia > all Volvo all Daf all Man all Mercedes engines are common > rail------- in > cars -all Bmw all Mercedes--Toyota --Mazda --Peugeot--Renault E.C.T. > are all > common rail today --and all have a computer which is by law set up > for > emissions control within strict parameters which do not allow any > changes > to the fuel as all figures and info from sensors go into the bin > when you > mess with fuel > > -------as the bog standard BMW saloon engine has computer controlled > variable turbo vanes - computer controlled engine valve timing -- > computer > controlled metering and delivery and timing of fuel ----------all > controlled > by the analysing of the exhaust by the computer as smoke -- always--- > always--- always means un burnt fuel there fore less fuel will be > metered > to the engine and more turbo boost will be admitted and the > wastegate valve > will be closed and if the fuel is right your arse is sucked into the > seat > with the acceleration -------however if you are burning lies > instead of > fuel expect to start walking soon . > > re nasty bugs in fuel and biocide ------if you remove their hotel > they > will leave as they need their hotel to live --DRAIN THE WATER ------ > from the > tank . > > due to the existence of a land border on this > island > there is a lot of messing with fuel as the rules and diesel colour are > different on each side of the border and boat and agricultural > diesel are > dyed red and sold 60% less than road diesel > if you remove the dye you can make a nice profit and everything from > white > bread to cat litter is used to soak up the dye -- it also can be > washed out > using acid however this as you can expect has consequences . > most people with any brains buy diesel from one filling station > only and > keep the receipts and make the filling station owner aware they will > not > leave a without receipt as all diesel shop bills tend to be > settled out of > court and quickly and quietly as the fuel is always the problem . > the truckers here have to fit diesel > heaters in the fuel filters and the tank as the warranty ends on the > truck > if you put anything fancy into the fuel and the computer logs the > changes to > the fuel and the measures the engine had to make to cope with it .. > regards > denis buggy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gord Schnell" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 1:32 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel messing witches spells > > >> Well Denis....I'm not sure what part of the world you are from . >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22267|22255|2010-01-24 16:22:55|wild_explorer|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|Dear Denis, I am enjoying reading your opinion. More likely you are the expert on AUTOMOTIVE engines. It is unlikely, that people will put "last generation, green-technology, fancy BMW or Mercedes" automotive engine on a boat. You just gave them very good reason not to do it. There is noticeable difference between automotive (passenger car) and marine/industrial diesel engines. Marine/industrial diesel engines built for reliability and able to withstand reasonable abuse. Such engines are not so sensitive to the quality of diesel fuel as automotive engines. I see owners of passenger cars who has 300,000 miles on odometer in 10-20 years and very proud of such fact. Let see. 300,000/40 mi/hr = 7500 hours of running engine during the life of the car (10-20 years) with all scheduled engine maintenance. Marine engine running 365/7/24 (1 year) - 365x24 = 8760 hours with no maintenance (just regular check on running engine). And such diesel engines last about 10-15 years with scheduled maintenance. It could be different for small marine engines, but they do not need to run 365/7/24. See the difference??? Marine diesel fuel is lower grade than diesel fuel for cars. No problems. So, it is limitation of the engine design, not diesel engine itself. This engine (see link below) runs on diesel/bio-diesel fuel as well as on aviation kerosene (which will damage your fancy automotive engine). Why? Because it was the REQUIREMENT for this engine to run on it and designers just complied with it. http://www.dieselmotorcycles.com/engineering.htm Second: Who is talking about mixing diesel fuel with Ethanol alcohol and running engine on such mixture all the time(or long time) for marine application? We are talking about removing water from main fuel tank and killing bacterias/microbes in the tank. I agree, what is OK for marine engines, might not be usable for automotive engines. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > DEAR GORD AND ALL > > > the reason I was alarmist about fuel is that it is a nightmare area if you > are inclined to become a physicist on the basis of a 30 minute fuel think > in on the web . | 22268|22268|2010-01-24 17:02:04|ric|new photos----better with captions.|Thanks 'theboilerflue' for posting your 23 photos. Is that you amongst the progress? Seems you have quite a job on your hands. What would make it a lot more enjoyable and informative would be some captions that are quite easy to add by the poster. In fact it would be great if many posters could go back and edit captions to their pictures. have fun| 22269|22211|2010-01-24 17:08:52|wild_explorer|Re: fuel tanks|These links you provided are more informative than ones before. It have enough information for someone's DIY project. Easy to do. I just was surprised, they (NZ) claimed this device worldwide patented but did not provide patent number and many companies just do "replicas". At least they have distributors in USA - easy to ask for simple test (or written independent test results) before buying. I cold not find any information of this device's test at USCG (coast guards) website. If somebody want to do DIY project, watch this video how to remove magnets from magnetron. Note: if tip of magnetron is pink colored - it is TOXIC. Be careful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YZuxEtzD9c Paul, you already have this product. Please, keep us updated on effectiveness of this device. What was the price? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > seem to like it, too. Read here and click on the links to see how it > works: > > http://www.dieselsolutions.co.nz/how-debug-works.shtml > > and here > > http://www.dieselsolutions.co.nz/testimonials.shtml > > The following is the unit I saw at the boat show along with fuel samples > and then purchased. I have yet to try it myself. This unit has been > tested by the University of Wales. > > http://www.purafiner.com/proof.htm | 22270|22211|2010-01-24 18:09:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: fuel tanks|Hi, Paul - On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 07:48:30PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I was a skeptic, too so I have found some better/ more appropriate > links. Well, I doubt that you could find "better" than an actual reputable, well-known laboratory - and I think you'd have to agree that EPA's lab is about as reputable as you can get. If you can cite a source of equivalent or better reputation, I'd be glad to see what they have to say. > The magnet units were developed in NZ over 20 years so maybe it > is more accepted here. The US Coast Guard has done some testing and > seem to like it, too. Read here and click on the links to see how it > works: > > http://www.dieselsolutions.co.nz/how-debug-works.shtml > > and here > > http://www.dieselsolutions.co.nz/testimonials.shtml "The people who sell them swear that it works." Hmm. Unusual. :) Have you actually read those, Paul? I just have, and *not a single one of them* is an actual formal test; at least of them says so explicitly. The Bureau Veritas certification - just like the CARB certification from California - does not mean that anything was tested; it simply says that they went through the channels to apply for the paperwork. The US Coast Guard reference is not from or by the US Coast Guard; it's simply a cite of what was brought up for discussion in one of their conferences (which was the company's own materials.) Pretty much _all_ of it is the company's own ads - sometimes filtered through some external (and non-authoritative) source so it could look better. The "ICI New Zealand Limited Corporate Research Laboratory Biodeterioration Service"? (*Lovely* name, that.) Interesting thing about'em, though: the only "ICI New Zealand Limited Corporate Research Laboratory" that comes up in a Google search is... two hits, both from the above manufacturer of these "Debug" units. Opening it up to "ICI New Zealand Limited" finds... a computer company. They don't seem to have any "corporate research laboratory" - and certainly not one that researches "biodeterioration". The "Monya Sigler Phillips, PhD" that wrote their "Why Bacteria Hate Magnets" brochure? She was a student at UT-Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas in 1992... and has never, ever been heard from again, on any issue whatsoever - other than that one write-up (if you know anything about the world of academia, you'll realize why this is impossible for an actual PhD. The term "publish or perish" is indicative, at least.) In short: there are *no* authoritative results or even authoritative research shown anywhere in their testimonials, but there *is* a whole lot of misleading puffery, special pleading, misdirection, and hot air ("There is an old story about a Scottish marine engineer who observed... fewer clogging problems" is what they chose as the hook in their ads.) If they had even *one* bit of solid proof, they wouldn't need any of the latter, would they? > The following is the unit I saw at the boat show along with fuel samples > and then purchased. I have yet to try it myself. This unit has been > tested by the University of Wales. > > http://www.purafiner.com/proof.htm I'm not going to apply my sceptic filter to these folks' claims, except to say that the putative study they commissioned from the University of Wales, TA/40397/67488/94/REL, only comes up in two places via Google, and one on Yahoo. Both are - you've guessed it - "fuel magnet" sellers. Wouldn't you think that an actual study proving their point would be touted by every single fuel magnet seller in the world? Now, if somebody was willing to bet, say, $100 on the result, I'd take the time and the effort to contact the people at UofW to get the complete and real story on this study. Any takers? > I am a little skeptical about the fuel saving claims of the magnet > units....the links you gave would seem to confirm this. I am.not so > skeptical about the killing of the bacteria, however. Note I am not > defending the products, just repeating their claims. Understood. As a friend of mine used to say, "I'm selling it for the same as I bought it" (it sounds better in Spanish, though. :) > Everyone needs to > decide for themselves. In regards to the Wikipedia link, I assumed when > they talked about sunlight they meant UV. I could be wrong in my > assumption. Actually, their point was that sunlight is necessary for algae to grow (whereas UV is supposed to kill the beasties.) This is what proves that it's not algae, but bacteria that grows in there. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com | 22271|22255|2010-01-24 18:45:58|James Pronk|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|Wild I would not burn anything but diesel fuel in a diesel engine. Like Denis says. What you do is going to be ignited at approx 1200 degrees in a metal chamber which has very strict rules on how this is to happen and when . if you change the rating of the fuel it happens earlier or later -both are bad news  for you and your engine . I do not muck around with the fuel in my diesel. Not only is my life but the life of my wife and kids would be at risk.  One day you might be sitting in a nice harbour with out a care in the world. You might feel a shock wave roll through the anchorage. I would be cutting my dock lines or my anchor rode and heading out to deep water. That diesel engine better fire up and fast because you could only have 3 minutes till all hell breaks loose. Are you a diesel mechanic? 300 000km is nothing on a diesel. My friends who drove the sh1t out of there diesels could get 300 000km on them. My last VW had 800 000km then the odometer broke, my mechanic bought it from me and drove it over 1 000 000 km without a rebuild. Filter your fuel! Baja filter when you fill the tank, filter it from your main tank to your day tank and filter it on its way to the engine. Take good care of your fuel. A diesel engine is very different then a gas engine. James --- On Sun, 1/24/10, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel messing witches spells To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:19 PM   Dear Denis, I am enjoying reading your opinion. More likely you are the expert on AUTOMOTIVE engines. It is unlikely, that people will put "last generation, green-technology, fancy BMW or Mercedes" automotive engine on a boat. You just gave them very good reason not to do it. There is noticeable difference between automotive (passenger car) and marine/industrial diesel engines. Marine/industrial diesel engines built for reliability and able to withstand reasonable abuse. Such engines are not so sensitive to the quality of diesel fuel as automotive engines. I see owners of passenger cars who has 300,000 miles on odometer in 10-20 years and very proud of such fact. Let see. 300,000/40 mi/hr = 7500 hours of running engine during the life of the car (10-20 years) with all scheduled engine maintenance. Marine engine running 365/7/24 (1 year) - 365x24 = 8760 hours with no maintenance (just regular check on running engine). And such diesel engines last about 10-15 years with scheduled maintenance. It could be different for small marine engines, but they do not need to run 365/7/24. See the difference?? ? Marine diesel fuel is lower grade than diesel fuel for cars. No problems. So, it is limitation of the engine design, not diesel engine itself. This engine (see link below) runs on diesel/bio-diesel fuel as well as on aviation kerosene (which will damage your fancy automotive engine). Why? Because it was the REQUIREMENT for this engine to run on it and designers just complied with it. http://www.dieselmo torcycles. com/engineering. htm Second: Who is talking about mixing diesel fuel with Ethanol alcohol and running engine on such mixture all the time(or long time) for marine application? We are talking about removing water from main fuel tank and killing bacterias/microbes in the tank. I agree, what is OK for marine engines, might not be usable for automotive engines. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > DEAR GORD AND ALL > > > the reason I was alarmist about fuel is that it is a nightmare area if you > are inclined to become a physicist on the basis of a 30 minute fuel think > in on the web . __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22272|22211|2010-01-24 20:40:07|tinboat2010|Re: fuel tanks, magnets, MRI|Bacteria hate magnets? ("Monya Phillips, Why Bacteria Hate Magnets") A couple of MRI's didn't stop the flesh eating bacteria that was growing on my mitral valve. (Capnocytophaga) Seems that a couple of months of "heavy duty antibiotics" were needed to kill the critters. 4 different antibiotics, 18 days, 24/7, in the hospital. Then 6 weeks of daily, self-infused antibiotic. The magnet in a MRI is strong enough to temporarily realign atoms in your body, just a little stronger than something that you would wrap around a fuel line. It would have been nice if they could have run me through a MRI machine 4 or 5 times and killed the bacteria. (The MRI's that I had weren't related to the Capnocytophaga bacteria.) TinBoat --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > Hi, Paul - > > On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 07:48:30PM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > > I was a skeptic, too so I have found some better/ more appropriate > > links. > > Well, I doubt that you could find "better" than an actual reputable, > well-known laboratory - and I think you'd have to agree that EPA's lab > is about as reputable as you can get. If you can cite a source of > equivalent or better reputation, I'd be glad to see what they have to > say. > > > The magnet units were developed in NZ over 20 years so maybe it > > is more accepted here. The US Coast Guard has done some testing and > > seem to like it, too. Read here and click on the links to see how it > > works: > > > > http://www.dieselsolutions.co.nz/how-debug-works.shtml > > > > and here > > > > http://www.dieselsolutions.co.nz/testimonials.shtml > > "The people who sell them swear that it works." Hmm. Unusual. :) > > Have you actually read those, Paul? I just have, and *not a single one > of them* is an actual formal test; at least of them says so explicitly. > The Bureau Veritas certification - just like the CARB certification from > California - does not mean that anything was tested; it simply says that > they went through the channels to apply for the paperwork. The US Coast > Guard reference is not from or by the US Coast Guard; it's simply a cite > of what was brought up for discussion in one of their conferences (which > was the company's own materials.) > > Pretty much _all_ of it is the company's own ads - sometimes filtered > through some external (and non-authoritative) source so it could look > better. The "ICI New Zealand Limited Corporate Research Laboratory > Biodeterioration Service"? (*Lovely* name, that.) Interesting thing > about'em, though: the only "ICI New Zealand Limited Corporate Research > Laboratory" that comes up in a Google search is... two hits, both from > the above manufacturer of these "Debug" units. Opening it up to "ICI New > Zealand Limited" finds... a computer company. They don't seem to have > any "corporate research laboratory" - and certainly not one that > researches "biodeterioration". > > The "Monya Sigler Phillips, PhD" that wrote their "Why Bacteria Hate > Magnets" brochure? She was a student at UT-Southwestern Medical Center > in Dallas in 1992... and has never, ever been heard from again, on any > issue whatsoever - other than that one write-up (if you know anything > about the world of academia, you'll realize why this is impossible for > an actual PhD. The term "publish or perish" is indicative, at least.) > > In short: there are *no* authoritative results or even authoritative > research shown anywhere in their testimonials, but there *is* a whole > lot of misleading puffery, special pleading, misdirection, and hot air > ("There is an old story about a Scottish marine engineer who observed... > fewer clogging problems" is what they chose as the hook in their ads.) > If they had even *one* bit of solid proof, they wouldn't need any of the > latter, would they? > > > The following is the unit I saw at the boat show along with fuel samples > > and then purchased. I have yet to try it myself. This unit has been > > tested by the University of Wales. > > > > http://www.purafiner.com/proof.htm > > I'm not going to apply my sceptic filter to these folks' claims, except > to say that the putative study they commissioned from the University of > Wales, TA/40397/67488/94/REL, only comes up in two places via Google, > and one on Yahoo. Both are - you've guessed it - "fuel magnet" sellers. > > Wouldn't you think that an actual study proving their point would be > touted by every single fuel magnet seller in the world? Now, if somebody > was willing to bet, say, $100 on the result, I'd take the time and the > effort to contact the people at UofW to get the complete and real story > on this study. Any takers? > > > I am a little skeptical about the fuel saving claims of the magnet > > units....the links you gave would seem to confirm this. I am.not so > > skeptical about the killing of the bacteria, however. Note I am not > > defending the products, just repeating their claims. > > Understood. As a friend of mine used to say, "I'm selling it for the > same as I bought it" (it sounds better in Spanish, though. :) > > > Everyone needs to > > decide for themselves. In regards to the Wikipedia link, I assumed when > > they talked about sunlight they meant UV. I could be wrong in my > > assumption. > > Actually, their point was that sunlight is necessary for algae to grow > (whereas UV is supposed to kill the beasties.) This is what proves that > it's not algae, but bacteria that grows in there. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22273|22255|2010-01-24 20:49:53|wild_explorer|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|It is kind of... misleading information for several reasons: - Fresh water/condensate in the tank has the same freezing temperature. No matter what "low temperature" diesel fuel you have, water WILL FREEZE at below 0C/32F. If water is above your fuel intake/in_tank_pump and frozen, you will not be able to start engine. - Did you EVER drain water from your diesel car's tank? Does your car tank have drain plug for that? I do not think so. How did you get rid of water at that case? - All this talk about low temperature does not apply to boats. Usually, main fuel tank on a boat is below waterline. Sea water freezing point is about -2C/28F. Unless you are in VERY cold climate, fresh water in your tank will not freeze. You need to worry about day tank if your boat does not have heater. But condensation will be in play if your main tank vented to atmosphere. - Marine diesel fuel is NOT best grade, you WILL get lot of water and contaminants in it when fueling. So, water in diesel fuel is bigger problem than in car's diesel fuel. P.S. About "you did not see anybody adding to their diesel fuel". Just because you do not see it, it does not mean it is not there. That why there are different grades of diesel fuel (summer, winter, low-temperature, etc). It DOES have some additives there. If you driving car (gasoline) in California and filling up your car's tank, you will get 10% of Ethanol in it. It is just there. Is it good for the engine? I do not think so. But you have no choice! Do you want 100% gasoline? Fill up you car in another state. And NONE of car manufacturers complain. They still backup engine warranty (even up to 100K miles for some manufacturers). Do you have such engine warranty in Europe (160,000 km)? Probably not. Again, it is not the limitation of the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gcode fi (hanermo)" wrote: > > I have never seen anyone add anything to their diesel in Finland, and > the air force certainly does not. > I have filled tanks in -28C myself. > > Std winter diesel is rated to -29 C or - 84 F. | 22274|22211|2010-01-24 21:04:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: fuel tanks, magnets, MRI|On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 01:40:00AM -0000, tinboat2010 wrote: > Bacteria hate magnets? ("Monya Phillips, Why Bacteria Hate Magnets") A > couple of MRI's didn't stop the flesh eating bacteria that was growing > on my mitral valve. (Capnocytophaga) Seems that a couple of months of > "heavy duty antibiotics" were needed to kill the critters. 4 different > antibiotics, 18 days, 24/7, in the hospital. Then 6 weeks of daily, > self-infused antibiotic. > The magnet in a MRI is strong enough to temporarily realign atoms in > your body, just a little stronger than something that you would wrap > around a fuel line. It would have been nice if they could have run me > through a MRI machine 4 or 5 times and killed the bacteria. (The MRI's > that I had weren't related to the Capnocytophaga bacteria.) Yeah, that's the kind of thing I was thinking about, having had a couple of MRIs myself in the past. The amount of focused power that it takes to simply _align_ hydrogen nuclei - .1-3 tesla, with fluctuations of no more than 3 parts per million, if the Wikipedia article is correct - would take a permanent magnet of over 100 tons to generate. *Killing* anything with magnetism, including bacteria, if it can be done at all, would require a magnet that's orders of magnitude more powerful. Dinky little 3-oz. magnets epoxied into a plastic tube just don't seem like the right thing, somehow. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22275|22255|2010-01-24 21:35:24|wild_explorer|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|James, again, I am NOT suggesting to run diesel engine on Ethanol. Read below. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > Like Denis says. What you do is going to be ignited at > approx 1200 degrees in a metal chamber which has very strict rules on how > this is to happen and when . > if you change the rating of the fuel it happens earlier or later -both are > bad news  for you and your engine . Do not worry about it. It is NOT so critical for low RPM engines. Early ignition - not good. Little bit late - not a big deal. Water/Ethanol/Diesel mix will ignite later than pure diesel fuel. But it will not be noticeable in most cases. Again... Do not allow Water/Ethanol mixture to get into your engine - dump it from day tank. > That diesel engine better fire up and fast because you could only have 3 minutes till all hell breaks loose. You right again. If you take care of your engine - fine. Not so many people do it. What happen if you have water in you fuel which will settle on a bottom of your tank while you enjoying good weather? It will be sucked into your fuel lines... Bad news. THAT WHY WE DISCUSS IT HERE. TO FIND BETTER SOLUTION HOW TO DO OT RIGHT WAY. Everybody has their own preferences and ideas. Some of them will be criticize, some - adopted. I do not have any problems with that. I just give MY opinion. > Are you a diesel mechanic? > 300 000km is nothing on a diesel. I use to work as marine mechanic long time ago. So, I know a little bit about marine diesel engines. I was talking about 300K miles = 480K kilometers (not 300K km). > My friends who drove the sh1t out of there diesels could get 300 000km on them. My last VW had 800 000km then the odometer broke, my mechanic bought it from me and drove it over 1 000 000 km without a rebuild. 1M km = 620K mi, very possible. Diesel commercial track runs up to 1M miles - no problems. But it is good OLD diesel engine. Is in it? And 1M km is about 15,500 hours on your diesel engine. Marine diesel engines (big ones) could easily go up to 45,000-90,000 hours with regular maintenance. So, it is about 2,880,000-5,760,000 km ;)) > Filter your fuel! Baja filter when you fill the tank, filter it from your main tank to your day tank and filter it on its way to the engine. > Take good care of your fuel. Who will disagree with that? :)) | 22276|22255|2010-01-24 22:57:04|jpronk1|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|I am saying do not add Ethanol to your diesel fuel for any diesel engine. The best way to get rid or water is to drain it from a low point in your day tank and to also run a line in your main tank lower then your fuel pick-up to pump water if any from the bottom of the tank. I talked to my mechanic today, 1.4 million km on the VW and it is still running. You will not always get the best diesel fuel. There are steps that you can take to try to clean it up. Let it sit in the jerry can for a day and then have a good look at it. Does the top need skimming, is there sediment or water at the bottom? Don't just add ethanol to your diesel fuel and think that it is okay! James --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > James, again, I am NOT suggesting to run diesel engine on Ethanol. Read below. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Like Denis says. What you do is going to be ignited at > > approx 1200 degrees in a metal chamber which has very strict rules on how > > this is to happen and when . > > if you change the rating of the fuel it happens earlier or later -both are > > bad news  for you and your engine . > > Do not worry about it. It is NOT so critical for low RPM engines. Early ignition - not good. Little bit late - not a big deal. Water/Ethanol/Diesel mix will ignite later than pure diesel fuel. But it will not be noticeable in most cases. Again... Do not allow Water/Ethanol mixture to get into your engine - dump it from day tank. > > > That diesel engine better fire up and fast because you could only have 3 minutes till all hell breaks loose. > > You right again. If you take care of your engine - fine. Not so many people do it. What happen if you have water in you fuel which will settle on a bottom of your tank while you enjoying good weather? It will be sucked into your fuel lines... Bad news. > > THAT WHY WE DISCUSS IT HERE. TO FIND BETTER SOLUTION HOW TO DO OT RIGHT WAY. Everybody has their own preferences and ideas. Some of them will be criticize, some - adopted. I do not have any problems with that. I just give MY opinion. > > > Are you a diesel mechanic? > > 300 000km is nothing on a diesel. > > I use to work as marine mechanic long time ago. So, I know a little bit about marine diesel engines. I was talking about 300K miles = 480K kilometers (not 300K km). > > > My friends who drove the sh1t out of there diesels could get 300 000km on them. My last VW had 800 000km then the odometer broke, my mechanic bought it from me and drove it over 1 000 000 km without a rebuild. > > 1M km = 620K mi, very possible. Diesel commercial track runs up to 1M miles - no problems. But it is good OLD diesel engine. Is in it? > > And 1M km is about 15,500 hours on your diesel engine. Marine diesel engines (big ones) could easily go up to 45,000-90,000 hours with regular maintenance. So, it is about 2,880,000-5,760,000 km ;)) > > > Filter your fuel! Baja filter when you fill the tank, filter it from your main tank to your day tank and filter it on its way to the engine. > > Take good care of your fuel. > > Who will disagree with that? :)) > | 22277|22255|2010-01-25 00:08:52|wild_explorer|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|Why not to put fuel intake at the lowest point of main fuel tank in first place? This way fuel will go through coarse filter installed outside the tank (to get rid of solids), water separator, pump, to a day fuel tank. Remaining water will settle at the bottom of day tank waiting for dumping by valve at the bottom. What is the point to have extra line in a main tank to remove water? Good fuel delivery system design needs day tank anyway. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > The best way to get rid or water is to drain it from a low point in your day tank and to also run a line in your main tank lower then your fuel pick-up to pump water if any from the bottom of the tank. > | 22278|22278|2010-01-25 00:50:02|wild_explorer|Engine & fuel tank : Nitrile - compatability with diesel fuel|There are different types of Nitrile products. According information below, some of it incompatible with diesel fuel. Nitrile NBR (Nitrile butadiene rubber (NBR)) - NOT compatible. Nitrile rubber (Buna-N)is a synthetic rubber copolymer of acrylonitrile (ACN) and butadiene. Some trade names are: Nipol, Krynac and Europrene - COMPATIBLE Nitrile, Hydrogenated - COMPATIBLE Source: http://www.efunda.com/DesignStandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Diesel%20Oil http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats-engine/web/Diesel_fuel_Materials_Compatibility.pdf| 22279|22279|2010-01-25 01:11:08|wild_explorer|Engine recommendation for BS36 and BS40 (North America + WW service)|This subject was probably already discussed, but may be some revised information is available. What brand and engine model (available in North America with world wide service) would you recommend for BS36 and BS40?| 22281|22255|2010-01-25 07:14:38|James Pronk|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|This can be your first step to keeping you fuel clean. If you can keep most water out of your day tank would you not do this? Yes you can just filter it but why would you not want to be able to do this? You need to be able to count on your diesel engine if you have it! If you look in your tank and see crud in the bottom would you want to pump it out or run it through your filters then have to change your filters? James --- On Mon, 1/25/10, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel messing witches spells To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, January 25, 2010, 12:08 AM   Why not to put fuel intake at the lowest point of main fuel tank in first place? This way fuel will go through coarse filter installed outside the tank (to get rid of solids), water separator, pump, to a day fuel tank. Remaining water will settle at the bottom of day tank waiting for dumping by valve at the bottom. What is the point to have extra line in a main tank to remove water? Good fuel delivery system design needs day tank anyway. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > The best way to get rid or water is to drain it from a low point in your day tank and to also run a line in your main tank lower then your fuel pick-up to pump water if any from the bottom of the tank. > __________________________________________________________________ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22282|22279|2010-01-25 08:36:33|Carl Anderson|Re: Engine recommendation for BS36 and BS40 (North America + WW serv|In my exploration of these boats I found the following: Isuzu (predominent), Yanmar, Bukh, Pathfinder (VolksWagon), Hercules, Perkins, Beta (Kubota) and one boat (Ocean Pearl) used a four stroke outboard by Yamaha. Carl sv-mom.com wild_explorer wrote: > > > This subject was probably already discussed, but may be some revised > information is available. > > What brand and engine model (available in North America with world wide > service) would you recommend for BS36 and BS40? > > | 22283|22255|2010-01-25 08:59:11|Carl Anderson|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|In my opinion this is what works best: Let your main fuel tank be the "settling" tank and have the crud & water go to the bottom with a way to drain it out. Proper design here makes for less expense by not having to change out any pre-filters in the system. Then have a water separating, 2 micron filter between your day tank & engine filter. My engine, an Isuzu 4LE2, has an electric fuel pump that runs about 4 to 5 times what the engine needs with the return going back to the day tank. This way I have a very good fuel polishing system in my day tank with the main tank doing the pre-filter settling. Good filtration starts with running ALL of your incoming diesel through a water separating filter funnel (I just found a great deal on them from Mr. Funnel & got one that will pass 15 gallons per minute for $40). In fact I just had my boat filled late December while "on-the-hard" from the land based diesel supplier (the guy who delivers to the marina) hoping that this would be the cleanest fuel and the filter funnel caught a bit of general crud (looked like some sand & little black pieces of ???) but no water. And his response was "I don't know how that got in there!" Carl sv-mom.com James Pronk wrote: > > > This can be your first step to keeping you fuel clean. If you can keep > most water out of your day tank would you not do this? Yes you can just > filter it but why would you not want to be able to do this? You need to > be able to count on your diesel engine if you have it! > If you look in your tank and see crud in the bottom would you want to > pump it out or run it through your filters then have to change your filters? > James > Why not to put fuel intake at the lowest point of main fuel tank in > first place? This way fuel will go through coarse filter installed > outside the tank (to get rid of solids), water separator, pump, to a day > fuel tank. Remaining water will settle at the bottom of day tank waiting > for dumping by valve at the bottom. What is the point to have extra line > in a main tank to remove water? Good fuel delivery system design needs > day tank anyway. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > > > The best way to get rid or water is to drain it from a low point in > your day tank and to also run a line in your main tank lower then your > fuel pick-up to pump water if any from the bottom of the tank. > > > | 22284|22284|2010-01-25 10:44:05|SHANE ROTHWELL|Fuel Messing Witches Spells.... Garbage removal|In the last week or so, "Wildexplorer" has suggested the following. I hope he follows his own advice: So PLEASE Fraud-U-Wank, PLEASE DO exactly as you expound and recommend to the rest of us: - Please do use the majic magnetic bug killer (commonly exposed as a joke in the early 90's) - Please do draw fuel directly from the very bottom of your main fuel tanks as you suggest (brilliant!) - Please do Add heaps of ethanol to all diesel you use - Please do continue to drink it as well as you so brilliantly recommend to the rest of us. (what are you, a crack head?) Very obviously Fraud-U-Wank, the pathetic fraud who calls itself "Wildexplorer".....(get bloody real) is of far far far superior intelect, and of course experience, to the rest of the world. He is after all a californian and Soooooo impressive the way he can drive a keyboard all the way there,..... and back. And you might also consider pulling your head out of your ass and having a look around, it's a beautiful world out there full of all sorts of interesting people who have valuable, confirmable experience and expertise (most reciently on this site, Dennis) who do not spend all of their time looking on the internet for some majic voo-doo that will solve all their problems, they apply the grey matter they are blessed with as opposed to your practice of sqandering it. So, you bozo, take your political correctness, your idiotic dreamy mind fuck bullshit, twist it into a little knot and RAM IT! STOP SPAMMING THIS SITE! Who was it who suggested banning the idiot some time ago? He's just dangerous. and if you don't have the brains of the Re: Fuel messing witches spells Posted by: "wild_explorer" williswildest@... wild_explorer Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:08 pm (PST) Why not to put fuel intake at the lowest point of main fuel tank in first place? This way fuel will go through coarse filter installed outside the tank (to get rid of solids), water separator, pump, to a day fuel tank. Remaining water will settle at the bottom of day tank waiting for dumping by valve at the bottom. What is the point to have extra line in a main tank to remove water? Good fuel delivery system design needs day tank anyway. __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 22285|22284|2010-01-25 11:44:26|Alan H. Boucher|Re: Fuel Messing Witches Spells.... Garbage removal|Re: wildexplorer, don't get so upset. If he wasn't wasting his time trying to get you guys wound up he'd probably be doing something worse. All kinds of antisocial behavior comes to mind. That's what the delete button is for. If everyone deletes his comments, it will cease to be fun for him and he'll go away. On 1/25/2010 10:43 AM, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > In the last week or so, "Wildexplorer" has suggested the following. I > hope he follows his own advice: > > So PLEASE Fraud-U-Wank, PLEASE DO exactly as you expound and recommend > to the rest of us: > - Please do use the majic magnetic bug killer (commonly exposed as a > joke in the early 90's) > - Please do draw fuel directly from the very bottom of your main fuel > tanks as you suggest (brilliant!) > - Please do Add heaps of ethanol to all diesel you use > - Please do continue to drink it as well as you so brilliantly > recommend to the rest of us. (what are you, a crack head?) > > Very obviously Fraud-U-Wank, the pathetic fraud who calls itself > "Wildexplorer".....(get bloody real) is of far far far superior > intelect, and of course experience, to the rest of the world. He is > after all a californian and Soooooo impressive the way he can drive a > keyboard all the way there,..... and back. > > And you might also consider pulling your head out of your ass and > having a look around, it's a beautiful world out there full of all > sorts of interesting people who have valuable, confirmable experience > and expertise (most reciently on this site, Dennis) who do not spend > all of their time looking on the internet for some majic voo-doo that > will solve all their problems, they apply the grey matter they are > blessed with as opposed to your practice of sqandering it. > > So, you bozo, take your political correctness, your idiotic dreamy > mind fuck bullshit, twist it into a little knot and RAM IT! > > STOP SPAMMING THIS SITE! > > Who was it who suggested banning the idiot some time ago? He's just > dangerous. > > and if you don't have the brains of the > > Re: Fuel messing witches spells > Posted by: "wild_explorer" williswildest@... > wild_explorer > Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:08 pm (PST) > > Why not to put fuel intake at the lowest point of main fuel tank in > first place? This way fuel will go through coarse filter installed > outside the tank (to get rid of solids), water separator, pump, to a > day fuel tank. Remaining water will settle at the bottom of day tank > waiting for dumping by valve at the bottom. What is the point to have > extra line in a main tank to remove water? Good fuel delivery system > design needs day tank anyway. > > __________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark > your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22286|22268|2010-01-25 13:59:15|theboilerflue|Re: new photos----better with captions. , i know i know|Yep that's progress so far on the inside I just rebuilt the engine box yesterday I'll put up a couple pictures of it too after writing this. And yes I know what you mean about the lack of captions, they really are helpful for those of you researching possible options - I've been there (still am for a lot of tings in fact) I'll do that too As a note about engines, wild, I do and I believe there are quite a few boat owners on this list that do have a non marine engine - it's part of the benefit of the skeg cooling and dry exhaust system on steel boats, one can fit and engine in with almost no difference in the setup than a car or tractor as in my case. My engine is made by Yanmar but has John Deere stamped on it it came out of a 950 Deere lawn tractor originally. 22hp 3 cyl. I believe a coupe people have converted old VW engines. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > Thanks 'theboilerflue' for posting your 23 photos. Is that you amongst the progress? Seems you have quite a job on your hands. > > What would make it a lot more enjoyable and informative would be some captions that are quite easy to add by the poster. > > > In fact it would be great if many posters could go back and edit captions to their pictures. > > > have fun > | 22287|531|2010-01-25 17:26:42|Denis Buggy|Re: engines|RE DIESEL ENGINES To take the bad taste out of this thread and maybe end it for the moment I will offer the following as a diversion ----- if you are interested in unusual marine engines you could start with my favourite the JUMO 205 - nothing has ever beat this and it was used first in 1930 , the design was and is very efficient and gave a 2 stroke diesel engine the same efficiency as a 4 stroke however it had no valves or camshaft pushrods cam followers to give trouble . it was licensed to the Napier engine co by the German JUNKERS CO and English and nazi produced the same engine for a period - the engine is in use today in some navy boats and railway locos however it is now known as the NAPIER DELTIC and they simply joined 3 engines together in a triangle YES A TRIANGLE DIESEL ENGINE WITH A CRANKSHAFT ON EACH CORNER !. there are some clips on u tube where you can hear all 36 pistons firing and you would have to be at least a mile up wind on a cold start day -however when warm it is a magical orchestra of sound and if you are standing in a station when one of them passes at full volume it is uplifting as a performance by Rachaminiov . the original Jumo engine was used by the nazis to show off and a Dornier do26 flew from Hamburg in 1936 to Rio a 11000mile non stop journey while all others were taking off from Foynes/SHANNON in Ireland and had to go to Gander in New Foundland as they could not reach New York in one go 2600 miles from anywhere in Europe . it was also used in BLOHM AND VOSS flying boats which were moored for months in mid Atlantic and refuelled by subs to do their mid Atlantic spotting patrols which wrongly made the allies think the Germans had 3000 + subs in mid Atlantic -they never knew about the flying boats until after the war . there is a famous case of 14 hurricane fighters failing to shoot down one after emptying all their ammunition into this unarmed plane they had to all watch it fly away as its diesel failed to explode and the Germans had self sealing rubber fuel tanks and the engines did not require any electrical service to keep them running. diesel engines are the future and the first one was run on groundnut oil by Rudolph diesel they are capable of extraordinary service in unusual circumstances by talented people . denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:53 PM As a note about engines, wild, I do and I believe there are quite a few boat owners on this list that do have a non marine engine - it's part of the benefit of the skeg cooling and dry exhaust system on steel boats, one can fit and engine in with almost no difference in the setup than a car or tractor as in my case. My engine is made by Yanmar but has John Deere stamped on it it came out of a 950 Deere lawn tractor originally. 22hp 3 cyl. I believe a coupe people have converted old VW eng > have fun > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22288|22255|2010-01-25 17:38:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 06:58:28AM -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Good filtration starts with running ALL of your incoming diesel through > a water separating filter funnel (I just found a great deal on them from > Mr. Funnel & got one that will pass 15 gallons per minute for $40). > In fact I just had my boat filled late December while "on-the-hard" from > the land based diesel supplier (the guy who delivers to the marina) > hoping that this would be the cleanest fuel and the filter funnel caught > a bit of general crud (looked like some sand & little black pieces of > ???) but no water. And his response was "I don't know how that got in > there!" I saw a grungy, crusty sailor-type in Nassau, Bahamas using a T-shirt as a filter while filling up. All the gold-plated yachties around him sneered and laughed... until he dumped what looked like a 1/4 lb. of sand out of that T-shirt. Then, they all scurried off in a panic to find a mechanic who would clean out the fuel in their tanks. I've got a big Baja filter and use it unless I'm absolutely certain of the fuel supplier. Here's a big tip if you're going cruising: don't install the tiny "yachty" fuel fill that they sell at West Marine; get the big commercial type. This will enable you to fill up at big commercial facilities in wild and wooly places, assuming you can convince these guys to take care of you - they're often the only ones who have good fuel. If you don't have a big fill and a good air vent on your tank... well, the US Navy fuel point on the East coast of Puerto Rico told me that they pump at 150 gallons *per minute*. It wasn't quite that fast - it took them almost 3 minutes to fill my 113 gallon tank - but it would blow a standard plastic boat setup right apart. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22289|22289|2010-01-25 18:26:39|theboilerflue|captions|alright I spent a while writing a bunch of comments on my own photos for your view/scheming pleasure. check it out hope it explains things, input would be greatly appreciated.| 22290|22255|2010-01-25 18:30:17|theboilerflue|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|I was thinking of sometime making my own baja filter sometime any one know of a good source for fine screens to use? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Wild > I would not burn anything but diesel fuel in a diesel engine. > Like Denis says. What you do is going to be ignited at > approx 1200 degrees in a metal chamber which has very strict rules on how > this is to happen and when . > if you change the rating of the fuel it happens earlier or later -both are > bad news  for you and your engine . > I do not muck around with the fuel in my diesel. Not only is my life but the life of my wife and kids would be at risk. >  One day you might be sitting in a nice harbour with out a care in the world. You might feel a shock wave roll through the anchorage. I would be cutting my dock lines or my anchor rode and heading out to deep water. That diesel engine better fire up and fast because you could only have 3 minutes till all hell breaks loose. > Are you a diesel mechanic? > 300 000km is nothing on a diesel. My friends who drove the sh1t out of there diesels could get 300 000km on them. My last VW had 800 000km then the odometer broke, my mechanic bought it from me and drove it over 1 000 000 km without a rebuild. > Filter your fuel! Baja filter when you fill the tank, filter it from your main tank to your day tank and filter it on its way to the engine. > Take good care of your fuel. A diesel engine is very different then a gas engine. > James > > > --- On Sun, 1/24/10, wild_explorer wrote: > > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel messing witches spells > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:19 PM > > >   > > > > Dear Denis, > > I am enjoying reading your opinion. More likely you are the expert on AUTOMOTIVE engines. It is unlikely, that people will put "last generation, green-technology, fancy BMW or Mercedes" automotive engine on a boat. You just gave them very good reason not to do it. > > There is noticeable difference between automotive (passenger car) and marine/industrial diesel engines. Marine/industrial diesel engines built for reliability and able to withstand reasonable abuse. Such engines are not so sensitive to the quality of diesel fuel as automotive engines. > > I see owners of passenger cars who has 300,000 miles on odometer in 10-20 years and very proud of such fact. Let see. > > 300,000/40 mi/hr = 7500 hours of running engine during the life of the car (10-20 years) with all scheduled engine maintenance. > > Marine engine running 365/7/24 (1 year) - 365x24 = 8760 hours with no maintenance (just regular check on running engine). And such diesel engines last about 10-15 years with scheduled maintenance. It could be different for small marine engines, but they do not need to run 365/7/24. > > See the difference?? ? > > Marine diesel fuel is lower grade than diesel fuel for cars. No problems. So, it is limitation of the engine design, not diesel engine itself. > > This engine (see link below) runs on diesel/bio-diesel fuel as well as on aviation kerosene (which will damage your fancy automotive engine). Why? Because it was the REQUIREMENT for this engine to run on it and designers just complied with it. > > http://www.dieselmo torcycles. com/engineering. htm > > Second: Who is talking about mixing diesel fuel with Ethanol alcohol and running engine on such mixture all the time(or long time) for marine application? We are talking about removing water from main fuel tank and killing bacterias/microbes in the tank. > > I agree, what is OK for marine engines, might not be usable for automotive engines. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > DEAR GORD AND ALL > > > > > > the reason I was alarmist about fuel is that it is a nightmare area if you > > are inclined to become a physicist on the basis of a 30 minute fuel think > > in on the web . > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22291|22255|2010-01-25 22:43:03|steve|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|I don't know of a source for fine filters , so I'm no help at all. I revised my fuel filler plumbing 12 or 13 yrs ago to be able to accept much higher flow rates , as suggested in another post. This solved the problem of getting to a busy fuel dock and trickling in low flow diesel while all the private ships are milling around waiting for their 2000 gallon fill-ups. Gas-dock attendants looking side-long at me as the filler pipes belch and spew trying to accept some pathetic 40 gallons or so. Now the fuel rushes in like the Puntledge River in January. Problem is that in 2001 , I succumbed to the temptation to buy a 'Baja Filter'. I swore I wasn't going to do it , but I had made the mistake of stopping in San Diego on the way to the Baja! Gotta have one. The guys at Downwind Marine agreed with me and even agreed to sell me one for retail plus 15% - a heck of a deal ! Now, with the Baja Filter the flow is not as slow as initially but it's no river in spate either. So I rarely use it. I'll probably use it more if I get to Chile where it may be mostly re-fuelling by carrying jugs. No pressure from other thirstier mariners there. Here in BC if a fuel dock dispensed watery or dirty fuel the word would get around pretty quick, especially among the dwindling fishing fleet. Never had dirty fuel in Mexico ( only re-fuelled in LaPaz and Mazatlan ) ,or enroute to NZ. However I guess it could happen randomly and unexpectedly. Cleaned the tank twice in 15 yrs and had 5-10 mls of tarry crap and a ml or two of water both times. I have done 'diesel treatment' once or twice. cheers , Steve (Haidan , no , I won't sell the Baja filter to you) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I was thinking of sometime making my own baja filter sometime any one know of a good source for fine screens to use? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Wild > > I would not burn anything but diesel fuel in a diesel engine. > > Like Denis says. What you do is going to be ignited at > > approx 1200 degrees in a metal chamber which has very strict rules on how > > this is to happen and when . > > if you change the rating of the fuel it happens earlier or later -both are > > bad news  for you and your engine . > > I do not muck around with the fuel in my diesel. Not only is my life but the life of my wife and kids would be at risk. > >  One day you might be sitting in a nice harbour with out a care in the world. You might feel a shock wave roll through the anchorage. I would be cutting my dock lines or my anchor rode and heading out to deep water. That diesel engine better fire up and fast because you could only have 3 minutes till all hell breaks loose. > > Are you a diesel mechanic? > > 300 000km is nothing on a diesel. My friends who drove the sh1t out of there diesels could get 300 000km on them. My last VW had 800 000km then the odometer broke, my mechanic bought it from me and drove it over 1 000 000 km without a rebuild. > > Filter your fuel! Baja filter when you fill the tank, filter it from your main tank to your day tank and filter it on its way to the engine. > > Take good care of your fuel. A diesel engine is very different then a gas engine. > > James > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/24/10, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > From: wild_explorer > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel messing witches spells > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:19 PM > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > Dear Denis, > > > > I am enjoying reading your opinion. More likely you are the expert on AUTOMOTIVE engines. It is unlikely, that people will put "last generation, green-technology, fancy BMW or Mercedes" automotive engine on a boat. You just gave them very good reason not to do it. > > > > There is noticeable difference between automotive (passenger car) and marine/industrial diesel engines. Marine/industrial diesel engines built for reliability and able to withstand reasonable abuse. Such engines are not so sensitive to the quality of diesel fuel as automotive engines. > > > > I see owners of passenger cars who has 300,000 miles on odometer in 10-20 years and very proud of such fact. Let see. > > > > 300,000/40 mi/hr = 7500 hours of running engine during the life of the car (10-20 years) with all scheduled engine maintenance. > > > > Marine engine running 365/7/24 (1 year) - 365x24 = 8760 hours with no maintenance (just regular check on running engine). And such diesel engines last about 10-15 years with scheduled maintenance. It could be different for small marine engines, but they do not need to run 365/7/24. > > > > See the difference?? ? > > > > Marine diesel fuel is lower grade than diesel fuel for cars. No problems. So, it is limitation of the engine design, not diesel engine itself. > > > > This engine (see link below) runs on diesel/bio-diesel fuel as well as on aviation kerosene (which will damage your fancy automotive engine). Why? Because it was the REQUIREMENT for this engine to run on it and designers just complied with it. > > > > http://www.dieselmo torcycles. com/engineering. htm > > > > Second: Who is talking about mixing diesel fuel with Ethanol alcohol and running engine on such mixture all the time(or long time) for marine application? We are talking about removing water from main fuel tank and killing bacterias/microbes in the tank. > > > > I agree, what is OK for marine engines, might not be usable for automotive engines. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > > > DEAR GORD AND ALL > > > > > > > > > the reason I was alarmist about fuel is that it is a nightmare area if you > > > are inclined to become a physicist on the basis of a 30 minute fuel think > > > in on the web . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22292|22268|2010-01-25 22:49:42|Gord Schnell|Re: new photos----better with captions. , i know i know|Thought I should reply to this one as I have a VW 1.6L turbo diesel for power. It is relatively light weight, runs with minimal vibration and is rated at 68HP. Parts are available worldwide. Gord On 25-Jan-10, at 10:53 AM, theboilerflue wrote: > Yep that's progress so far on the inside I just rebuilt the engine > box yesterday I'll put up a couple pictures of it too after writing > this. And yes I know what you mean about the lack of captions, they > really are helpful for those of you researching possible options - > I've been there (still am for a lot of tings in fact) I'll do that too > > As a note about engines, wild, I do and I believe there are quite a > few boat owners on this list that do have a non marine engine - it's > part of the benefit of the skeg cooling and dry exhaust system on > steel boats, one can fit and engine in with almost no difference in > the setup than a car or tractor as in my case. My engine is made by > Yanmar but has John Deere stamped on it it came out of a 950 Deere > lawn tractor originally. 22hp 3 cyl. I believe a coupe people have > converted old VW engines. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > Thanks 'theboilerflue' for posting your 23 photos. Is that you > amongst the progress? Seems you have quite a job on your hands. > > > > What would make it a lot more enjoyable and informative would be > some captions that are quite easy to add by the poster. > > > > > > In fact it would be great if many posters could go back and edit > captions to their pictures. > > > > > > have fun > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22293|22293|2010-01-26 00:40:18|theboilerflue|fuel filters|Hey Paul Liebenberg, I seem to remember you mentioned having some sort of filter housing that takes a roll of paper towel as a disposable filter? or am I just imagining things, it was a while ago. Have you tried it out? I was curious.| 22294|531|2010-01-26 00:57:43|wild_explorer|Re: engines|Denis, very interesting reading. Thanks! So, what industrial diesel 2-4 cylinders, 20-50 Hp, liquid cooled, low RPM (with max torque around 1500-2500 rpm), bulletproof-reliable, with mechanical pressure pump, same design for decades but still in production, would you recommend? World wide service preferred. P.S. Small marine diesel engines are nothing but slightly modified industrial engines (for tractors, generators, etc). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > RE DIESEL ENGINES > To take the bad taste out of this thread and maybe end it for the moment I will offer the following as a diversion ----- > if you are interested in unusual marine engines you could start with my favourite the JUMO 205 - nothing has ever beat this and it | 22296|531|2010-01-26 04:51:02|Marc|Re: engines|Interesting stuff. I have a lot of materials on the Jumo opposed-piston engines, but never knew they had been used in boats and never suspected a connection between Junkers and Napier. What is your source for the Blohm & Voss flying-boat operations in the open ocean? This is contrary to everything I know about flying-boat ops and B&V in particular. They were, to the best of my knowledge, armed throughout their war service, and I know of no instance where they operated without shore support. If this is true, it puts a very different slant on the strategic potential of flying boats. Best, Marc de Piolen --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > RE DIESEL ENGINES > To take the bad taste out of this thread and maybe end it for the moment I will offer the following as a diversion ----- > if you are interested in unusual marine engines you could start with my favourite the JUMO 205 - nothing has ever beat this and it was used first in 1930 , the design was and is very efficient and gave a 2 stroke diesel engine the same efficiency as a 4 stroke however it had no valves or camshaft pushrods cam followers to give trouble . > it was licensed to the Napier engine co by the German JUNKERS CO and English and nazi produced the same engine for a period - > the engine is in use today in some navy boats and railway locos however it is now known as the NAPIER DELTIC and they simply joined 3 engines together in a triangle > it was also used in BLOHM AND VOSS flying boats which were moored for months in mid Atlantic and refuelled by subs to do their mid Atlantic spotting patrols which wrongly made the allies think the Germans had 3000 + subs in mid Atlantic -they never knew about the flying boats until after the war . > there is a famous case of 14 hurricane fighters failing to shoot down one after emptying all their ammunition into this unarmed plane they had to all watch it fly away as its diesel failed to explode and the Germans had self sealing rubber fuel tanks and the engines did not require any electrical service to keep them running. | 22297|22297|2010-01-26 21:01:46|Alan H. Boucher|Fwd: FW: Re: Diesel Aircraft engines|A little off topic, but here's one of the neater applications for the Napier engine. As I remember, this package showed up on a surplus property sale after they discontinued use. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FW: Re: Diesel Aircraft engines Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 02:50:16 +0000 From: boblippman@... Bob, I first heard of the Napier Deltic engine in the mid-1960s when I started hanging out at the Brooklyn fire station that housed the FDNY Superpumper and its tender. The Superpumper had a Napier Deltic because it was powerful enough to push out 8,800 gallons per minute (@350 psi) yet light enough to be driven on city streets and bridges. The FDNY also kept a spare engine in its crate in the shops. Here is a picture of the Superpumper: The Superpumper had a "Supertender" that was housed with it and accompanied it on all calls. The Tender carried 4 1/2" hose and a lot of fittings, along with some more of the 12 inch hard suction hose sections. The tractor of the tractor-trailer combo had a large Stang nozzle (8" dia) that could be used to squirt 10,000 gpm and knock down buildings, etc. Here is a picture of the Supertender: Needless to say, it was always extremely impressive to see these two tractor-trailer combinations barreling up, say Amsterdam Avenue, red light and siren, one right after the other. The other parts of the Superpumper system consisted of three "Satellites", which were normal size fire trucks carrying more of the 4 1/2" hose and equipped with Stang nozzles that were bigger than those on a normal pumper but not as big as the monster one on the Tender. Those nozzles could put out 4,000 gpm. The normal pumper's Stangs were probably 2,000 gpm but the pumpers only put out 1,000 gpm so the Stang (or the older "Multiversals") would be fed from more than one pumper at a time. Here is a picture of a Superpumper Satellite: There was also a station wagon operated by an officer. The wagon, along with the satellites, carried a manifold that could be fed from the Superpumper through its 4 1/2" hose and in turn feed a bunch of 2 1/2" gated outlets. And here is a nice history of the system, which was designed by the same man who designed the SS United States. THE SUPER PUMPER SYSTEM By Glenn Morson From Concept to Contract Not known to many, the “Super Pumper” concept dates back to 1910 when Mr. William Francis Gibbs an internationally renowned naval architect came up with an idea for the “land fireboat”, but his ideas where not received with serious consideration. In the 1930?s Gibbs had plans drawn up for his “land fireboat” using two Zeppelin engines, but this was still just a concept, while he was designing the fireboat FIREFIGHTER for New York City. He could not get the land fireboat out of his head; penning down designs and also showing practical reasons for his idea: which included the land fireboat acting as a portable pumping station delivering water from lakes ponds and other inland mass water sources. Giving greater water pressures than existing fire fighting equipment at the time, unfortunately for Gibbs such a vehicle was still no more than just a dream. Not being possible, due to engineering limitations that would restrict such a vehicle until the 1960?s. Diesel engines that could fulfill this type of pumping requirement and be light enough to mount on a truck did not exist, as well as hose that could cope with the pressures in Gibbs? design. Mr. William Francis Gibbs went on to be come America?s foremost ship designer going on to design 74% of the U.S. Navy?s fleet used during World War II plus the passenger liner S.S. UNITED STATES. Gibbs never gave up on his land fireboat, he became encouraged by newly developed lightweight diesel engines for the British navy as well as the U.S. Navy?s development of high pressure hoses that could withstand the requirement of the envisaged fire fighting apparatus. During 1962, Gibbs invited Mack Trucks to take part in the design of what is known today as the SUPER PUMPER and its companion Tender; with studies by Gibbs and Mack engineers into engineering feasibility, design right through to construction and materials. The DeLaval Turbine Inc was commissioned to design a multi-stage centrifugal pump with a Naper-Deltic T18-37C diesel to power the pumps; Gibbs and Cox Inc would provide the necessary services to act as design agents leaving Mack Trucks acting as the general contractor. Teams of managers, scientists and engineers from both corporations were assembled to work on this project. William Gibbs 20th April 1963 F.D.N.Y. experienced its busiest day to date, the combination of several dry spells plus prolonged water shortages led to one of the biggest fires on Staten Island. Staten Island was mainly thick brush, oak and pine trees with a small clusters of homes. On that day a series of small brush fires quickly committed all Staten Island?s fire companies; there was almost no water available due to the drought and poor water mains, additional fire companies were dispatched from Brooklyn and Manhattan. Their response time was hampered by the need for the additional companies to be shipped across to Staten Island by ferry boats. As a result of the delay in providing adequate fire cover, the total loss on the Island exceeded $2 Million with over 1300 firefighter and over 80 Fire companies being committed, firefighter could do little to save property and land due to the lack of water. Firefighters in the rest of the city were kept busy in that twenty four hour period with over 2000 alarms being transmitted for fires. Gibbs watched the events of that day; after he analyzed all the statistics he came to the conclusion that his land fireboat could have had great effect on the outcome of the Staten Island fire. It could have pumped water from the Tottenville water front providing an unlimited supply of water to the working companies. This was it; the time had come for his idea to become a necessity in a modern day fire service. He approached the F.D.N.Y. The department?s officials were enthusiastic about the idea of a large high pressure pumping appliance. But one problem! The department?s funding for the next financial year had been budgeted; this was a set back for Gibbs, but he was determined to sell this idea to the City. After attending several hearings and testifying to justify the expense, the approval was eventually given and at 10:00am December 3rd 1963 Fire Commissioner Edward Thompson signed the contract for Mack Trucks to build the Super Pumper and it?s Tender at a cost of $875,000.00 to the city. Commissioner Edward stated, “This will be the most powerful firefighting equipment the world has ever known.” * The Super Pumper* The tractor utilized for the Super Pumper was a commercial Mack, model designated F715FSTP. The engine was a four stroke cycle Mack END864 V8 diesel of 255 HP. An Allison CLT4460 six speed semi-automatic transmission was coupled to the engine an d equipped for a power take off unit to drive the priming pump and starting air compressor for the pump engine. Additional power take off units powered the air brake compressor including the power steering pump. The semi-trailer was mounted to the fifth wheel of the tractor. Mounted at the rear of the tractor trailer is a DeLaval six stage pump having a built in piston type valve to allow for operation in either pressure or volume positions. To supply water to the pump there are four unchecked inlets to the rear. Two of these are 4 1/2 inch while the other two are 12 inch with 4 1/2 inch inlets set into their caps. There are also two 4 1/2 inch checked inlets on each side of the apparatus at the rear. There are a total of eight 4 1/2 inch discharge outlets with four located on each side of the apparatus. Directly coupled to the pump is the Napier-Deltic engine this is an 18 cylinder turbo-blown compression ignition, water cooled opposed piston type operating on a two stroke cycle. The exhaust silencer is intended to reduce the overall engine noise level within 6ft distance from the apparatus. On each side of this silencer are 200 gallon diesel fuel tanks which can feed the diesel independently or simultaneously. The pump engine is started by air pressure (450PSI) provided from air tanks located on the tractor. There is a single master shut off to prevent engine over speeding. A mechanical crane is located at the rear to assist in positioning and supporting the rigid 12 inch suction connections. By the end of 1964, the pumping unit of the Super Pumper was approximately 90% complete. *Length* * 43'3"* *Width* *8'* *Height* * 11' 4"* * Weight* * 68,500 pounds* * Maximum speed* * 42 MPH* * Rated horsepower of pump engine* * 2400* * Fuel carrying capacity* * 400 gallons* * Pump* * 6 stage 2 position* * Pump capacity* * 8800 GPM at 350 PSI* * Serial number* * F715FSP1000* *The Tender* The primary tender would be a flat hose bed trailer instead of the hose reels indented in the original design; unfortunately the intended design was not practical at the time of manufacturing due to limited technology. When a working model of the tender with reels was made, problems surfaced with the hose butts on the reels that proved the design to be impractical. A manifold system with gauged discharge outlets would also be included in the trailers design. Utilizing the same basic Mack cab over tractor as that of the Super Pumper, modifications were made to fit an operating platform that would support the high pressure monitor, designated model F715FSTT... When originally delivered, the Tender had a large McEntyre monitor similar to those on the fireboats. This was replaced with a large Stang "Intelligiant" monitor which had an 8 inch barrel operated by hand wheels including interchangeable tips of 3, 3 1/2, 4, 5 inch and a 2000 GPM fog tip. The monitor was supplied via the four 4 1/2 inch checked inlets with two located on each side of the tractor. There were also hydraulically operated outriggers on each side of the tractor located below the operating platform attached to the frame. Their purpose is to stabilize the rig and counteract the nozzle reaction of back pressure. These outriggers were also equipped with mechanical interlocking devices in the event of hydraulic failure. The maximum reach of a stream thrown by the tender's monitor was 600 feet. The bulk of the trailer consists of a divided hose bed with each compartment capable of carrying 1000 feet of 4 1/2 inch hose. The front end of the trailer was equipped with a large “walk in” type compartment. The rear axles were steerable from a reverse seated position located at the rear center of the trailer; this was to be removed in a later modification. This apparatus was designed and manufactured so that the tractor could easily uncouple from the trailer. This allowed for the tractor, carrying the large monitor, to maneuver easily and into tighter spots than wouldn?t be possible as a tractor trailer combination. *Length* 41'6" *Width* *8'* *Height* *11' 4"* * Weight* 60,000 pounds Monitor capacity 10,000 GPM Reaction force of monitor 5000 PSI Maximum reach of stream * 600'* Serial number F715FSTT1001 *Satellites* * *The Super Pumper System was developed out of necessity due to the inability to build the tender as originally designed. The new system consisted of the Super Pumper, Tender, and three satellite tenders that were developed to carry the same amount of hose and equipment as originally intended for the tender. Each of the three satellite were built on the Mack "C" model cab designated model C85FD. They were equipped with Mack END673 176 HP diesel engines and manual transmissions. Each was capable of carrying 2000 feet of 4 1/2 inch hose and had a Stang "Intelligiant" monitor that had a 6 inch barrel which was manually controlled. These monitors had a water delivery capability of 4000 GPM and had 2, 2 1/2, 3, 3 1/2, and 4 inch tips as well as 700 and 2000 GPM fog tips. Each satellite had four inlets with two on each side. There was one checked and one unchecked inlet on each side. When lines were supplied to a satellite they were hooked up to the unchecked inlets first. All three satellites were equipped with portable manifolds. These manifolds had 4 1/2 inch inlets and either six 2 1/2 inch gated outlets or two 3 inch and four 2 1/2 inch gated outlets. Weighing a little over 200 pounds, the portable manifolds were utilized efficiently at operations requiring many hand lines the Super Pumper could supply the manifold from a remote location with the manifold positioned in front of the fire scene. *SATELLITES* *Length* * 25'7"* *Width* *8'* *Height* * 10'9"* * Monitor capacity* * 4000 GPM Butts* * Model designation* * C85FD* * RUNS AND WORKERS* * SUPER PUMPER and TENDER * * The last response made by the Super Pumper occurred on April, 24^th , 1982.* * YEAR* * RUNS* * WORKERS* * 1965* * 46* * 7* * 1966* * 163* * 59* * 1967* * 114* * 41* * 1968* * 237* * 67* * 1969* * 219* * 56* * 1970* * 234* * 78* * 1971* * 206* * 66* * 1972* * 165* * 54* * 1973* * 190* * 81* * 1974* * 231* * 114* * 1975* * 216* * 134* * 1976* * 99* * 63* * 1977* * 41* * 28* * 1978* * 24* * 17* * 1979* * 38* * 26* * 1980* * 25* * 12* * 1981* * 26* * 11* * 1982* * 11* * 4* * TOTAL* * 2285* * 918* The above text is an adaptation of John A. Calderone?s book entitled, The F.D.N.Y. Super Pumper System. If you are looking for a more in-depth history of the above F.D.N.Y. vehicles mentioned in this article, I strongly recommend you purchasing a copy of the book which includes over 100 photos and illustrations. The book is still available from the following sites: http://www.fireapparatusjournal.com/sp-order.pdf and www.westchestercollect.com . Also available are copies of the blue prints for the Super Pumper System from http://www.grovegraphics.com/blueprints.htm The blue-line blueprint will be made from the original velum drawing by a California firefighter that is over twenty-five years old. This print is NOT a photocopy but an actual blueprint. The overall size of this blueprint is approximately 20 1/2 x 15 1/2 inche*s.** * * Click Here for Review * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22298|22268|2010-01-27 01:19:11|wild_explorer|Re: Non-marine engines (was: new photos----better with captions. , i|theboilerflue, Industrial diesel engines (tractors, generators, etc) will work just fine on a boat. It might require some minor modifications (like deeper oil pan and extended oil intake). If RPM/torque chart for the engine available, gear ratio for gearbox known, it should not be any problems to choose propeller size, etc. Do you use gear box from the same tractor as well? Gord, Is it "good OLD design" VW diesel engine? Do you use original gearbox from VW as well? If I can find low mileage (low hours) tractor or VW engine for a good price, I might go for it as well. Marine engine is not really necessary, if you can get RELIABLE liquid cooled diesel engine from another application and modify it by yourself. ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Thought I should reply to this one as I have a VW 1.6L turbo diesel > for power. It is relatively light weight, runs with minimal vibration > and is rated at 68HP. Parts are available worldwide. > Gord > > On 25-Jan-10, at 10:53 AM, theboilerflue wrote: > > > Yep that's progress so far on the inside I just rebuilt the engine > > box yesterday I'll put up a couple pictures of it too after writing > > this. And yes I know what you mean about the lack of captions, they > > really are helpful for those of you researching possible options - > > I've been there (still am for a lot of tings in fact) I'll do that too > > > > As a note about engines, wild, I do and I believe there are quite a > > few boat owners on this list that do have a non marine engine - it's > > part of the benefit of the skeg cooling and dry exhaust system on > > steel boats, one can fit and engine in with almost no difference in > > the setup than a car or tractor as in my case. My engine is made by > > Yanmar but has John Deere stamped on it it came out of a 950 Deere > > lawn tractor originally. 22hp 3 cyl. I believe a coupe people have > > converted old VW engines. > > | 22299|22268|2010-01-27 12:48:26|Gord Schnell|Re: Non-marine engines (was: new photos----better with captions. , i|I'm using an '86 VW Jetta Turbo diesel and a Velvet Drive 71C transmission. I modified the VW bellhousing to mate the Velvet Drive to the engine. Gord On 26-Jan-10, at 10:18 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > theboilerflue, Industrial diesel engines (tractors, generators, etc) > will work just fine on a boat. It might require some minor > modifications (like deeper oil pan and extended oil intake). If RPM/ > torque chart for the engine available, gear ratio for gearbox known, > it should not be any problems to choose propeller size, etc. > > Do you use gear box from the same tractor as well? > > Gord, > > Is it "good OLD design" VW diesel engine? Do you use original > gearbox from VW as well? > > If I can find low mileage (low hours) tractor or VW engine for a > good price, I might go for it as well. Marine engine is not really > necessary, if you can get RELIABLE liquid cooled diesel engine from > another application and modify it by yourself. ;)) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell > wrote: > > > > Thought I should reply to this one as I have a VW 1.6L turbo diesel > > for power. It is relatively light weight, runs with minimal > vibration > > and is rated at 68HP. Parts are available worldwide. > > Gord > > > > On 25-Jan-10, at 10:53 AM, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > Yep that's progress so far on the inside I just rebuilt the engine > > > box yesterday I'll put up a couple pictures of it too after > writing > > > this. And yes I know what you mean about the lack of captions, > they > > > really are helpful for those of you researching possible options - > > > I've been there (still am for a lot of tings in fact) I'll do > that too > > > > > > As a note about engines, wild, I do and I believe there are > quite a > > > few boat owners on this list that do have a non marine engine - > it's > > > part of the benefit of the skeg cooling and dry exhaust system on > > > steel boats, one can fit and engine in with almost no difference > in > > > the setup than a car or tractor as in my case. My engine is made > by > > > Yanmar but has John Deere stamped on it it came out of a 950 Deere > > > lawn tractor originally. 22hp 3 cyl. I believe a coupe people have > > > converted old VW engines. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22300|22300|2010-01-27 12:50:34|Jonathan Stevens|Alloy for hatches|What grade of alloy should one use for the hatches? I was offered various numbers by some one new to the job; I didn't know which to go for and they couldn't help. Thanks, Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22301|22268|2010-01-27 13:00:53|theboilerflue|Re: Non-marine engines|On this engine I'm wouldn't be too worried about the oil pan depth it deep enough that it was cumbersome as it was. it's a fairly low rpm motor for most Yanmars as I understand, off the top of my head it tops off at 1700 or so I've been told some Yanmars run much faster than that it also idles at a fairly high rpm like 1400 or something I can't remember now but it seemed high, though is what the book recommended. I have a Hurth 100 gear box which has a small reduction like 10:9 or something the reverse is a little lower than forward but pretty much it's a 1:1. I attached it in kinda an unusual way, I built a bed, the engine bolts to that and the transmission bolts to it as well, there's a (I have no idea what they are called but it's two disks with 6 or 8 perpendicular springs running out from a splined hole that accepts the transmission, it's bolted to the flywheel. So no bell housing in the traditional sense. This whole engine transmission assembly then bolts to the engine bed built onto the boat. It'd of been interesting to use a tractor tranny but can't imagine myself working the clutch and shifter and tiller while trying to avoid smashing into a half million dollar yacht navigating over the fuel dock very successfully. I terrified enough motoring around near other boats as it is although it's much better since I fixed the fuel control on the governor, now the engine stays running when I switch from go to stop going and go backwards. The drill press we have at the farm uses an old jeep transmission to gear it down no clutch though you just turn off the drill and change gears. There are keyed flanges on each the transmission and shaft, I have a 1 1/4" SS shaft and a 14" dia 16 pitch prop or maybe it's 16" - 14" I can't remember. I've been sitting in the water for too long, need to get to the beach -preferably one of those warm sunny ones with those under canvased bikinis that mickey was so found of a few weeks back. Mickey, yours is the aluminium boat at Wolf marine right? I stop by there every once and while if I happen to be going by when the gate is open, every time it's a little further ahead, looking good yesterday nice smooth finish on the paint job. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > theboilerflue, Industrial diesel engines (tractors, generators, etc) will work just fine on a boat. It might require some minor modifications (like deeper oil pan and extended oil intake). If RPM/torque chart for the engine available, gear ratio for gearbox known, it should not be any problems to choose propeller size, etc. > > Do you use gear box from the same tractor as well? | 22302|22300|2010-01-27 13:19:17|theboilerflue|Re: Alloy for hatches|My hatches came with the boat already cut out they were the wrong type (scrapyard) for bending and cracked but I just washed them smooth with a tig welder I don't imagine it's that critical for strength. but if your buying new, might as well get one that will take the bend. I think 5052 is the usual bending aluminium but I've found 6061 can take a bend too fairly well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > What grade of alloy should one use for the hatches? I was offered various > numbers by some one new to the job; I didn't know which to go for and they > couldn't help. Thanks, > > Jonathan. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22303|22300|2010-01-27 13:22:57|Aaron Williams|Re: Alloy for hatches|Since Hatches are above waterline you could use 5052 wich is cheaper than the marine grade 5086 Aaron --- On Wed, 1/27/10, Jonathan Stevens wrote: From: Jonathan Stevens Subject: [origamiboats] Alloy for hatches To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 27, 2010, 8:49 AM   What grade of alloy should one use for the hatches? I was offered various numbers by some one new to the job; I didn't know which to go for and they couldn't help. Thanks, Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22304|22300|2010-01-27 15:13:45|jonathanswef|Re: Alloy for hatches|That's really helpful Thanks.J. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Since Hatches are above waterline you could use 5052 wich is cheaper than the marine grade 5086 > Aaron > > --- On Wed, 1/27/10, Jonathan Stevens wrote: > > > From: Jonathan Stevens > Subject: [origamiboats] Alloy for hatches > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, January 27, 2010, 8:49 AM > > >   > > > > What grade of alloy should one use for the hatches? I was offered various > numbers by some one new to the job; I didn't know which to go for and they > couldn't help. Thanks, > > Jonathan. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22305|22255|2010-01-27 16:59:26|brentswain38|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|I remember reading about a couple off central America having to motor off a lee shore agaist a steep chop with water flowing down the decks . The fuel tank was almost empty, and they couldn't put more in from their gerry cans, because of the water on deck. They had those goofy little yachtie "flush " fillers. That is why I always advocate 1 1/2 inch sch 40 fillers , standingn several inces above the decks, with standard ss caps on them. They can be put in out of the way places near the centreline( so they don't go underwater in a knock down, when someone forgot to screw the caps on tight enough. ) Flush fillers have no place on an ocean going yacht, especially not on the side decks.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 06:58:28AM -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Good filtration starts with running ALL of your incoming diesel through > > a water separating filter funnel (I just found a great deal on them from > > Mr. Funnel & got one that will pass 15 gallons per minute for $40). > > In fact I just had my boat filled late December while "on-the-hard" from > > the land based diesel supplier (the guy who delivers to the marina) > > hoping that this would be the cleanest fuel and the filter funnel caught > > a bit of general crud (looked like some sand & little black pieces of > > ???) but no water. And his response was "I don't know how that got in > > there!" > > I saw a grungy, crusty sailor-type in Nassau, Bahamas using a T-shirt as > a filter while filling up. All the gold-plated yachties around him > sneered and laughed... until he dumped what looked like a 1/4 lb. of > sand out of that T-shirt. Then, they all scurried off in a panic to find > a mechanic who would clean out the fuel in their tanks. > > I've got a big Baja filter and use it unless I'm absolutely certain of > the fuel supplier. > > Here's a big tip if you're going cruising: don't install the tiny > "yachty" fuel fill that they sell at West Marine; get the big commercial > type. This will enable you to fill up at big commercial facilities in > wild and wooly places, assuming you can convince these guys to take care > of you - they're often the only ones who have good fuel. If you don't > have a big fill and a good air vent on your tank... well, the US Navy > fuel point on the East coast of Puerto Rico told me that they pump at > 150 gallons *per minute*. It wasn't quite that fast - it took them > almost 3 minutes to fill my 113 gallon tank - but it would blow a > standard plastic boat setup right apart. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22306|19001|2010-01-27 17:11:44|brentswain38|Common screwups|A neighbour , on one of my 36 footers ,complained about the double foredeck mooring bitts, leaving the staysail tang between them exposed, and it being difficult to keep the paint on it, with the anchor chain passing directly over it. With the single mooring bitt shown in the plans , the staysail tang is somewhat protected, behind the mooring bitt. When I asked him if there is ever any advantage to double mooring bitts, he couldn't think of any offhand. It appears to be just another " Make work and more wages for Evan" effort, who always insists on double bitts. You can reduce the problem somewhat, by making several passes of stainless welding over the staysail tang, as well as the tops of chainplates. I prefer mild steel for such parts, for it's structural reliability , but stainless for any wear parts and corners reduces maintenance. The stainless passes can be done much later, after painting and foaming, as long as you quench them quickly after welding.| 22307|22255|2010-01-27 17:12:22|brentswain38|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|Most indistrial suppliers have the fine screens . Baja filtres are easy to make , but if I were doing mine again, I'd leave the downpipe sticking up inside the filtre an inch or more, to stop any drops of water that may have made it past the screen. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I was thinking of sometime making my own baja filter sometime any one know of a good source for fine screens to use? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Wild > > I would not burn anything but diesel fuel in a diesel engine. > > Like Denis says. What you do is going to be ignited at > > approx 1200 degrees in a metal chamber which has very strict rules on how > > this is to happen and when . > > if you change the rating of the fuel it happens earlier or later -both are > > bad news for you and your engine . > > I do not muck around with the fuel in my diesel. Not only is my life but the life of my wife and kids would be at risk. > >  One day you might be sitting in a nice harbour with out a care in the world. You might feel a shock wave roll through the anchorage. I would be cutting my dock lines or my anchor rode and heading out to deep water. That diesel engine better fire up and fast because you could only have 3 minutes till all hell breaks loose. > > Are you a diesel mechanic? > > 300 000km is nothing on a diesel. My friends who drove the sh1t out of there diesels could get 300 000km on them. My last VW had 800 000km then the odometer broke, my mechanic bought it from me and drove it over 1 000 000 km without a rebuild. > > Filter your fuel! Baja filter when you fill the tank, filter it from your main tank to your day tank and filter it on its way to the engine. > > Take good care of your fuel. A diesel engine is very different then a gas engine. > > James > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/24/10, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > From: wild_explorer > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel messing witches spells > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:19 PM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Dear Denis, > > > > I am enjoying reading your opinion. More likely you are the expert on AUTOMOTIVE engines. It is unlikely, that people will put "last generation, green-technology, fancy BMW or Mercedes" automotive engine on a boat. You just gave them very good reason not to do it. > > > > There is noticeable difference between automotive (passenger car) and marine/industrial diesel engines. Marine/industrial diesel engines built for reliability and able to withstand reasonable abuse. Such engines are not so sensitive to the quality of diesel fuel as automotive engines. > > > > I see owners of passenger cars who has 300,000 miles on odometer in 10-20 years and very proud of such fact. Let see. > > > > 300,000/40 mi/hr = 7500 hours of running engine during the life of the car (10-20 years) with all scheduled engine maintenance. > > > > Marine engine running 365/7/24 (1 year) - 365x24 = 8760 hours with no maintenance (just regular check on running engine). And such diesel engines last about 10-15 years with scheduled maintenance. It could be different for small marine engines, but they do not need to run 365/7/24. > > > > See the difference?? ? > > > > Marine diesel fuel is lower grade than diesel fuel for cars. No problems. So, it is limitation of the engine design, not diesel engine itself. > > > > This engine (see link below) runs on diesel/bio-diesel fuel as well as on aviation kerosene (which will damage your fancy automotive engine). Why? Because it was the REQUIREMENT for this engine to run on it and designers just complied with it. > > > > http://www.dieselmo torcycles. com/engineering. htm > > > > Second: Who is talking about mixing diesel fuel with Ethanol alcohol and running engine on such mixture all the time(or long time) for marine application? We are talking about removing water from main fuel tank and killing bacterias/microbes in the tank. > > > > I agree, what is OK for marine engines, might not be usable for automotive engines. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > > > DEAR GORD AND ALL > > > > > > > > > the reason I was alarmist about fuel is that it is a nightmare area if you > > > are inclined to become a physicist on the basis of a 30 minute fuel think > > > in on the web . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22308|531|2010-01-27 17:35:03|Denis Buggy|Re: engines|dear Marc you have a way with you --- and a peer review on the net is putting me to some trouble as I posted from memory and did not have the text and source ready to be challenged in such great style --------I know of no instance --if this is true --but never knew --never suspected --- my e mail address is denis@... please send me your address for some material to be sent to you . the Deltic society is a good place to start re the Deltic engine and the history of Napier and Junkers . your reference to shore support probably means the photos of German army with hoses running from a furnace to warm an engine before starting which feature in a lot of material on these engines I do not know how they were started at sea but I suspect the periods at sea were the summer months only . I do know these were hardy machines and were fitted with a large degaussing ring for exploding mines at sea while flying over them and were capable of surviving at sea for periods . this bv138 was the shipyards first flying boat and was called the flying shoe/clog by its crews as it was truly a boat with a wing attached . this engine is reported in current use in its Deltic form with the Greek and British navies . --------------------00000000000000-------------------------------- re enquiry --------what is a suitable engine for a boat ??--- this question is not as simple as it seems as the rule book must be obeyed first and the first rule is engine loading ---the engine must not be too big for its work as it must have a load to push to breathe and work properly and also it must not be overloaded as this is equally bad . to come up with the formula you should firstly ask the orgamiboats community who know from experience what power level is correct loading for this hull type and the prop speed and size must be quoted as not all engines run at the same speed and you must run the engine at its sweet spot ---some sweet spots are two thirds revs in a busy engine and one third engine speed in a large Cummins or cat which are meant to be lugged at low revs . you may have 3 or more correct recipes for Brent's boat as the high revving engine will be mated to its prop and a low speed engine will be mated to its different prop -the end result from three different engines with 3 different props may be the same for the same hull . the real experts will be the people who own these boats who have seen cavitations on a prop or black smoke coming out the exhaust . there is a great book by Dave gerr on props which is loved and hated on this group which will give you some idea that his views may not be an exact science . proof of the pudding is in the eating -regards denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: Marc To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:49 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines Interesting stuff. I have a lot of materials on the Jumo opposed-piston engines, but never knew they had been used in boats and never suspected a connection between Junkers and Napier. What is your source for the Blohm & Voss flying-boat operations in the open ocean? This is contrary to everything I know about flying-boat ops and B&V in particular. They were, to the best of my knowledge, armed throughout their war service, and I know of no instance where they operated without shore support. If this is true, it puts a very different slant on the strategic potential of flying boats. Best, Marc de Piolen Reply to sender | Reply to group Messages in this topic (39) Recent Activity: a.. New Members 9 a.. New Photos 19 a.. New Files 1 Visit Your Group Start a New Topic To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com MARKETPLACE Going Green: Your Yahoo! Groups resource for green living Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22309|19810|2010-01-27 22:06:00|jpronk1|Re: Anchor Winch|I have the anchor winch pretty much finished. I will post some photos of it tomorrow. James --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I have started to build a few parts for a BS 36 and I am starting on > the anchor winch. I have a piece of 1/2" 316 ss, 9" in diameter. I was > going to cut square teeth in it so I could use it to let out cable > slowly as well as bringing in the anchor. I will try to post some > photos of what I was thinking of doing. Any thoughts from the group on > this? > Thank you, > James Pronk > | 22310|22300|2010-01-27 22:40:41|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Alloy for hatches|6061 has a tendency to crack since it usually supplied heat treated. 6063 bends much better. I used to bend aluminum pipe on a tight radius. 6061 would often break suddenly, 60663 always bent smoothly. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "theboilerflue" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alloy for hatches My hatches came with the boat already cut out they were the wrong type (scrapyard) for bending and cracked but I just washed them smooth with a tig welder I don't imagine it's that critical for strength. but if your buying new, might as well get one that will take the bend. I think 5052 is the usual bending aluminium but I've found 6061 can take a bend too fairly well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > What grade of alloy should one use for the hatches? I was offered various > numbers by some one new to the job; I didn't know which to go for and they > couldn't help. Thanks, > > Jonathan. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22311|22311|2010-01-28 10:53:59|Helmut Schlager|simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|hello group lurking a while (understanding only half of the themes and tech speech) - what the hell is 40 gauge wire ore sheet metall thckness??) Situated in austria near the danube, I`m asking for a real small origami design for a motordriven rivercruiser. What is the thinnesd (?) steel sheet thickness to build origami? I`m trying to do a small boat (length about 6m[20feet Igess?], and 2,4m broad [8feet?]). this dimension is allowed to go by trailer without expensive guide, it must be also have a weigthing under 3000kg (~al little bit under 6000 lbs(?)) to be allowed to travel along the streets,... (if I`m out of labor (because of elderness - 15 years to that point) it would no more be necessary (most of the time) to go by road, but in the meantime I have to do some transportation on the road - therefore the limits in weight and widh. any links, designs, hints welcome regards helmut schlager| 22312|22311|2010-01-28 11:49:26|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|The commonly used rule of thumb is about 10 m minimum length for a metal boat. As Brents designs are slightly more efficient, ie lighter, the smaller ones still work at around 30 ft. The practical minimum sheet thickness for metal boats is about 4 mm. If you wanted to do a boat from say 3 mm thick sheets, welding would distort them, as would working on them. Also, all scantlings etc. are based on sheets thick enough to stand walking etc. At 3 mm the sheets may plop or bend, unless internal extra framing is put in. As a skin, the 3 mm is more than strong enough ... but might rust ! and would by it´s very nature probably be distorted during the build. As a practical choice, I don´t think a steel boat is a good option for your river cruiser. I would suggest cold molded plywood - It´s fast to build, easy to do, strong. By weight, it is stronger than a steel boat. By weight, it is the strongest, lightest best boatbuilding material I know of. Like steel, working with it is easy and does not require large amounts of expensive exotic tools. Also, as a river cruiser, ultimate yield strength which is best in steel boats, will not be a requirement. You are unlikely for example to hit a container floating under the surface, and moorings (and help) are always near. Google for cold molded plywood boats ... ;) > hello group > > lurking a while (understanding only half of the themes and tech speech) > - what the hell is 40 gauge wire ore sheet metall thckness??) > Situated in austria near the danube, I`m asking for a real small origami > design for a motordriven rivercruiser. > What is the thinnesd (?) steel sheet thickness to build origami? > I`m trying to do a small boat (length about 6m[20feet Igess?], and 2,4m > broad [8feet?]). this dimension is allowed to go by trailer without > expensive guide, > it must be also have a weigthing under 3000kg (~al little bit under 6000 > lbs(?)) to be allowed to travel along the streets,... > (if I`m out of labor (because of elderness - 15 years to that point) it > would no more be necessary (most of the time) to go by road, but in the > meantime I have to do some transportation on the road - therefore the > limits in weight and widh. > > any links, designs, hints welcome > > regards helmut schlager > | 22313|22311|2010-01-28 12:36:31|James Pronk|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|You should look at "Eighteen" it is a steel motor boat. I know in Holland there is all kinds of small steel boats. James --- On Thu, 1/28/10, Helmut Schlager wrote: From: Helmut Schlager Subject: [origamiboats] simple origami-design for small river cruiser? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, January 28, 2010, 10:53 AM hello group lurking a while (understanding only half of the themes and tech speech) - what the hell is 40 gauge wire ore sheet metall thckness??) Situated in austria near the danube, I`m asking for a real small origami design for a motordriven rivercruiser. What is the thinnesd (?) steel sheet thickness to build origami? I`m trying to do a small boat (length about 6m[20feet Igess?], and 2,4m broad [8feet?]). this dimension is allowed to go by trailer without expensive guide, it must be also have a weigthing under 3000kg (~al little bit under 6000 lbs(?)) to be allowed to travel along the streets,... (if I`m out of labor (because of elderness - 15 years to that point) it would no more be necessary (most of the time) to go by road, but in the meantime I have to do some transportation on the road - therefore the limits in weight and widh. any links, designs, hints welcome regards helmut schlager ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22314|22311|2010-01-28 12:56:23|markh|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|Helmut: I would suggest a Bolger design like the Sneakeasy or if you want to sleep on it maybe the tennessee. John Michalak also has some easy to build designs in plywood as well. Following link--look under plans. And join the Bolger Yahoo group and or read PhilBolgers design books like Boats with an Open Mind. http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: gcode fi (hanermo) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] simple origami-design for small river cruiser? The commonly used rule of thumb is about 10 m minimum length for a metal boat. As Brents designs are slightly more efficient, ie lighter, the smaller ones still work at around 30 ft. The practical minimum sheet thickness for metal boats is about 4 mm. If you wanted to do a boat from say 3 mm thick sheets, welding would distort them, as would working on them. Also, all scantlings etc. are based on sheets thick enough to stand walking etc. At 3 mm the sheets may plop or bend, unless internal extra framing is put in. As a skin, the 3 mm is more than strong enough ... but might rust ! and would by it´s very nature probably be distorted during the build. As a practical choice, I don´t think a steel boat is a good option for your river cruiser. I would suggest cold molded plywood - It´s fast to build, easy to do, strong. By weight, it is stronger than a steel boat. By weight, it is the strongest, lightest best boatbuilding material I know of. Like steel, working with it is easy and does not require large amounts of expensive exotic tools. Also, as a river cruiser, ultimate yield strength which is best in steel boats, will not be a requirement. You are unlikely for example to hit a container floating under the surface, and moorings (and help) are always near. Google for cold molded plywood boats ... ;) > hello group > > lurking a while (understanding only half of the themes and tech speech) > - what the hell is 40 gauge wire ore sheet metall thckness??) > Situated in austria near the danube, I`m asking for a real small origami > design for a motordriven rivercruiser. > What is the thinnesd (?) steel sheet thickness to build origami? > I`m trying to do a small boat (length about 6m[20feet Igess?], and 2,4m > broad [8feet?]). this dimension is allowed to go by trailer without > expensive guide, > it must be also have a weigthing under 3000kg (~al little bit under 6000 > lbs(?)) to be allowed to travel along the streets,... > (if I`m out of labor (because of elderness - 15 years to that point) it > would no more be necessary (most of the time) to go by road, but in the > meantime I have to do some transportation on the road - therefore the > limits in weight and widh. > > any links, designs, hints welcome > > regards helmut schlager > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22315|22311|2010-01-28 15:00:16|ric|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|Try this one Helmut. http://www.benford.us/index.html?lists.html A little bit different but a great river boat. The Friday harbour ferry at 20ft x 8ft and 4250 lbs, in ply; but could be done in steel. There are a dozen of these being run on Vancouver harbour as ferries carrying 12 passengers http://www.granvilleislandferries.bc.ca/ I have the plans for this little tub and intend to do an origami conversion to build in stitch and glue ply, but it could be done in steel with a bit of thought. have fun --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager wrote: > > hello group > > lurking a while (understanding only half of the themes and tech speech) > - what the hell is 40 gauge wire ore sheet metall thckness??) > Situated in austria near the danube, I`m asking for a real small origami > design for a motordriven rivercruiser. > What is the thinnesd (?) steel sheet thickness to build origami? > I`m trying to do a small boat (length about 6m[20feet Igess?], and 2,4m > broad [8feet?]). this dimension is allowed to go by trailer without > expensive guide, > it must be also have a weigthing under 3000kg (~al little bit under 6000 > lbs(?)) to be allowed to travel along the streets,... > (if I`m out of labor (because of elderness - 15 years to that point) it > would no more be necessary (most of the time) to go by road, but in the > meantime I have to do some transportation on the road - therefore the > limits in weight and widh. > > any links, designs, hints welcome > > regards helmut schlager > | 22316|22311|2010-01-28 15:09:57|ric|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|Sorry the first link doesn't take you all the way. When the page opens scroll down to the 20' False Creek ferry and open the PDF. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > Try this one Helmut. > > http://www.benford.us/index.html?lists.html > > A little bit different but a great river boat. The Friday harbour ferry at 20ft x 8ft and 4250 lbs, in ply; but could be done in steel. There are a dozen of these being run on Vancouver harbour as ferries carrying 12 passengers > > http://www.granvilleislandferries.bc.ca/ > > I have the plans for this little tub and intend to do an origami conversion to build in stitch and glue ply, but it could be done in steel with a bit of thought. > > have fun | 22317|22255|2010-01-28 16:13:14|theboilerflue|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|Brent are you saying the screens stop water from going through? I was under the assumption that these screens were for particulates only. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > Most indistrial suppliers have the fine screens . > Baja filtres are easy to make , but if I were doing mine again, I'd leave the downpipe sticking up inside the filtre an inch or more, to stop any drops of water that may have made it past the screen. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > I was thinking of sometime making my own baja filter sometime any one know of a good source for fine screens to use? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > Wild > > > I would not burn anything but diesel fuel in a diesel engine. > > > Like Denis says. What you do is going to be ignited at > > > approx 1200 degrees in a metal chamber which has very strict rules on how > > > this is to happen and when . > > > if you change the rating of the fuel it happens earlier or later -both are > > > bad news for you and your engine . > > > I do not muck around with the fuel in my diesel. Not only is my life but the life of my wife and kids would be at risk. > > >  One day you might be sitting in a nice harbour with out a care in the world. You might feel a shock wave roll through the anchorage. I would be cutting my dock lines or my anchor rode and heading out to deep water. That diesel engine better fire up and fast because you could only have 3 minutes till all hell breaks loose. > > > Are you a diesel mechanic? > > > 300 000km is nothing on a diesel. My friends who drove the sh1t out of there diesels could get 300 000km on them. My last VW had 800 000km then the odometer broke, my mechanic bought it from me and drove it over 1 000 000 km without a rebuild. > > > Filter your fuel! Baja filter when you fill the tank, filter it from your main tank to your day tank and filter it on its way to the engine. > > > Take good care of your fuel. A diesel engine is very different then a gas engine. > > > James > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/24/10, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: wild_explorer > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel messing witches spells > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Received: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:19 PM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Denis, > > > > > > I am enjoying reading your opinion. More likely you are the expert on AUTOMOTIVE engines. It is unlikely, that people will put "last generation, green-technology, fancy BMW or Mercedes" automotive engine on a boat. You just gave them very good reason not to do it. > > > > > > There is noticeable difference between automotive (passenger car) and marine/industrial diesel engines. Marine/industrial diesel engines built for reliability and able to withstand reasonable abuse. Such engines are not so sensitive to the quality of diesel fuel as automotive engines. > > > > > > I see owners of passenger cars who has 300,000 miles on odometer in 10-20 years and very proud of such fact. Let see. > > > > > > 300,000/40 mi/hr = 7500 hours of running engine during the life of the car (10-20 years) with all scheduled engine maintenance. > > > > > > Marine engine running 365/7/24 (1 year) - 365x24 = 8760 hours with no maintenance (just regular check on running engine). And such diesel engines last about 10-15 years with scheduled maintenance. It could be different for small marine engines, but they do not need to run 365/7/24. > > > > > > See the difference?? ? > > > > > > Marine diesel fuel is lower grade than diesel fuel for cars. No problems. So, it is limitation of the engine design, not diesel engine itself. > > > > > > This engine (see link below) runs on diesel/bio-diesel fuel as well as on aviation kerosene (which will damage your fancy automotive engine). Why? Because it was the REQUIREMENT for this engine to run on it and designers just complied with it. > > > > > > http://www.dieselmo torcycles. com/engineering. htm > > > > > > Second: Who is talking about mixing diesel fuel with Ethanol alcohol and running engine on such mixture all the time(or long time) for marine application? We are talking about removing water from main fuel tank and killing bacterias/microbes in the tank. > > > > > > I agree, what is OK for marine engines, might not be usable for automotive engines. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > > > > > DEAR GORD AND ALL > > > > > > > > > > > > the reason I was alarmist about fuel is that it is a nightmare area if you > > > > are inclined to become a physicist on the basis of a 30 minute fuel think > > > > in on the web . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 22318|22255|2010-01-28 21:44:58|brentswain38|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|Once the super fine screens are soaked in diesel the surface tension in water won't let it go thru. You can buy the big plastic funnels with super fine screens in them and try to get water to go thru diesel soaked sceens . It won't go thru. Baja filtres start with a coarse screen then a finer one then a super fine screen, which will stop water if it is diesel soaked first. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Brent are you saying the screens stop water from going through? I was under the assumption that these screens were for particulates only. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > Most indistrial suppliers have the fine screens . > > Baja filtres are easy to make , but if I were doing mine again, I'd leave the downpipe sticking up inside the filtre an inch or more, to stop any drops of water that may have made it past the screen. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > I was thinking of sometime making my own baja filter sometime any one know of a good source for fine screens to use? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > > > Wild > > > > I would not burn anything but diesel fuel in a diesel engine. > > > > Like Denis says. What you do is going to be ignited at > > > > approx 1200 degrees in a metal chamber which has very strict rules on how > > > > this is to happen and when . > > > > if you change the rating of the fuel it happens earlier or later -both are > > > > bad news for you and your engine . > > > > I do not muck around with the fuel in my diesel. Not only is my life but the life of my wife and kids would be at risk. > > > >  One day you might be sitting in a nice harbour with out a care in the world. You might feel a shock wave roll through the anchorage. I would be cutting my dock lines or my anchor rode and heading out to deep water. That diesel engine better fire up and fast because you could only have 3 minutes till all hell breaks loose. > > > > Are you a diesel mechanic? > > > > 300 000km is nothing on a diesel. My friends who drove the sh1t out of there diesels could get 300 000km on them. My last VW had 800 000km then the odometer broke, my mechanic bought it from me and drove it over 1 000 000 km without a rebuild. > > > > Filter your fuel! Baja filter when you fill the tank, filter it from your main tank to your day tank and filter it on its way to the engine. > > > > Take good care of your fuel. A diesel engine is very different then a gas engine. > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/24/10, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: wild_explorer > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel messing witches spells > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Received: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:19 PM > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Denis, > > > > > > > > I am enjoying reading your opinion. More likely you are the expert on AUTOMOTIVE engines. It is unlikely, that people will put "last generation, green-technology, fancy BMW or Mercedes" automotive engine on a boat. You just gave them very good reason not to do it. > > > > > > > > There is noticeable difference between automotive (passenger car) and marine/industrial diesel engines. Marine/industrial diesel engines built for reliability and able to withstand reasonable abuse. Such engines are not so sensitive to the quality of diesel fuel as automotive engines. > > > > > > > > I see owners of passenger cars who has 300,000 miles on odometer in 10-20 years and very proud of such fact. Let see. > > > > > > > > 300,000/40 mi/hr = 7500 hours of running engine during the life of the car (10-20 years) with all scheduled engine maintenance. > > > > > > > > Marine engine running 365/7/24 (1 year) - 365x24 = 8760 hours with no maintenance (just regular check on running engine). And such diesel engines last about 10-15 years with scheduled maintenance. It could be different for small marine engines, but they do not need to run 365/7/24. > > > > > > > > See the difference?? ? > > > > > > > > Marine diesel fuel is lower grade than diesel fuel for cars. No problems. So, it is limitation of the engine design, not diesel engine itself. > > > > > > > > This engine (see link below) runs on diesel/bio-diesel fuel as well as on aviation kerosene (which will damage your fancy automotive engine). Why? Because it was the REQUIREMENT for this engine to run on it and designers just complied with it. > > > > > > > > http://www.dieselmo torcycles. com/engineering. htm > > > > > > > > Second: Who is talking about mixing diesel fuel with Ethanol alcohol and running engine on such mixture all the time(or long time) for marine application? We are talking about removing water from main fuel tank and killing bacterias/microbes in the tank. > > > > > > > > I agree, what is OK for marine engines, might not be usable for automotive engines. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > DEAR GORD AND ALL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the reason I was alarmist about fuel is that it is a nightmare area if you > > > > > are inclined to become a physicist on the basis of a 30 minute fuel think > > > > > in on the web . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 22319|22255|2010-01-28 23:24:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 03:42:36AM -0000, steve wrote: > > I revised my fuel filler plumbing 12 or 13 yrs ago to be able to > accept much higher flow rates , as suggested in another post. This > solved the problem of getting to a busy fuel dock and trickling in low > flow diesel while all the private ships are milling around waiting for > their 2000 gallon fill-ups. Gas-dock attendants looking side-long at > me as the filler pipes belch and spew trying to accept some pathetic > 40 gallons or so. > Now the fuel rushes in like the Puntledge River in January. Nice feeling, isn't it? :) > Problem is that in 2001 , I succumbed to the temptation to buy a 'Baja > Filter'. I swore I wasn't going to do it , but I had made the mistake > of stopping in San Diego on the way to the Baja! Gotta have one. The > guys at Downwind Marine agreed with me and even agreed to sell me one > for retail plus 15% - a heck of a deal ! > > Now, with the Baja Filter the flow is not as slow as initially but > it's no river in spate either. So I rarely use it. I'll probably use > it more if I get to Chile where it may be mostly re-fuelling by > carrying jugs. No pressure from other thirstier mariners there. I think we're talking about opposite, or at least complementary scenarios here. Places that do bunkerage have clean fuel almost by definition; they're moving hundreds of *tons* of fuel per day, so it a) doesn't get a chance to sit around, and b) their tanks are constantly getting flushed by the movement of fuel. It's the last place in the world where I'd worry about pre-filtering fuel. Filling up at some tiny little fuel dock on the Murrumbidgee [1] or in Tierra del Fuego, either via a 1/2" hose that takes half a day or by rusty fuel drums rolled down the dock by a cigarette-puffing local (make sure it's diesel before you put it in!), that's the place for the Baja filter. Oh, and I hope you got the larger one: the little one is only good for teaching you patience. :) [1] I stole that one from Slocum. He sarcastically referred to a clueless skipper as "a whaler from the Murrumbidgee", a small river in the mountains of Australia. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22320|22211|2010-01-28 23:25:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: fuel tanks|On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 03:20:11AM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > > I suspect that this wouldn't work any better than substituting 10 hours > > of sun-tanning for a 1/2-second burst from a flamethrower. :) > > Actually Ben a 1/2 second burst of flame burns, at least my skin way > better than sitting out in the sun all day does, but you're probably > right it'd take quite a blast to kill things in a big tank like mine. That was exactly my point, Haidan: a 1/2-second burst from a flamethrower will actually destroy things, while 10 hours of sun-tanning will just give you a nice tan. Same idea with algae, etc.: a sufficient amount of UV will kill them; anything less than that would be useless. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22321|22311|2010-01-29 05:45:23|boatwayupnorth|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|Helmut, can't help you with the choice of your boat, but here is a link you might find useful to convert imperial measurements to metric: http://www.onlineconversion.com/ Viel Spass beim bauen! Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager wrote: > > hello group > > lurking a while (understanding only half of the themes and tech speech) > - what the hell is 40 gauge wire ore sheet metall thckness??) > Situated in austria near the danube, I`m asking for a real small origami > design for a motordriven rivercruiser. > What is the thinnesd (?) steel sheet thickness to build origami? > I`m trying to do a small boat (length about 6m[20feet Igess?], and 2,4m > broad [8feet?]). this dimension is allowed to go by trailer without > expensive guide, > it must be also have a weigthing under 3000kg (~al little bit under 6000 > lbs(?)) to be allowed to travel along the streets,... > (if I`m out of labor (because of elderness - 15 years to that point) it > would no more be necessary (most of the time) to go by road, but in the > meantime I have to do some transportation on the road - therefore the > limits in weight and widh. > > any links, designs, hints welcome > > regards helmut schlager > | 22322|22255|2010-01-29 13:34:21|brentswain38|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|In Mexico , cruisers get together and hire a big taxi to make a gerry can fuel run to the nearest Pemex station, to get fuel with a higher turnover rate, which is far cleaner than anyhting you can buy off a dock there. One could always improve the flow rate in a Baja filtre, by building it out of six inch pipe rather than 4 inch pipe. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 03:42:36AM -0000, steve wrote: > > > > I revised my fuel filler plumbing 12 or 13 yrs ago to be able to > > accept much higher flow rates , as suggested in another post. This > > solved the problem of getting to a busy fuel dock and trickling in low > > flow diesel while all the private ships are milling around waiting for > > their 2000 gallon fill-ups. Gas-dock attendants looking side-long at > > me as the filler pipes belch and spew trying to accept some pathetic > > 40 gallons or so. > > Now the fuel rushes in like the Puntledge River in January. > > Nice feeling, isn't it? :) > > > Problem is that in 2001 , I succumbed to the temptation to buy a 'Baja > > Filter'. I swore I wasn't going to do it , but I had made the mistake > > of stopping in San Diego on the way to the Baja! Gotta have one. The > > guys at Downwind Marine agreed with me and even agreed to sell me one > > for retail plus 15% - a heck of a deal ! > > > > Now, with the Baja Filter the flow is not as slow as initially but > > it's no river in spate either. So I rarely use it. I'll probably use > > it more if I get to Chile where it may be mostly re-fuelling by > > carrying jugs. No pressure from other thirstier mariners there. > > I think we're talking about opposite, or at least complementary > scenarios here. Places that do bunkerage have clean fuel almost by > definition; they're moving hundreds of *tons* of fuel per day, so it a) > doesn't get a chance to sit around, and b) their tanks are constantly > getting flushed by the movement of fuel. It's the last place in the > world where I'd worry about pre-filtering fuel. > > Filling up at some tiny little fuel dock on the Murrumbidgee [1] or in > Tierra del Fuego, either via a 1/2" hose that takes half a day or by > rusty fuel drums rolled down the dock by a cigarette-puffing local (make > sure it's diesel before you put it in!), that's the place for the Baja > filter. Oh, and I hope you got the larger one: the little one is only > good for teaching you patience. :) > > > [1] I stole that one from Slocum. He sarcastically referred to a > clueless skipper as "a whaler from the Murrumbidgee", a small river in > the mountains of Australia. :) > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22323|22311|2010-01-29 14:39:43|jonathanswef|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|Helmut, I am building an eighteen foot origami in 3mm. I found Brent's ideas and the boats on this site so inspirational (and the members so helpful), I had to build one of my own, even though professionally, I mostly work in wood. It just seems like a fun thing to do. The finished boat wil be bomb proof and properly painted and maintained should last as well as any other. I designed my own. Selway Fisher offers a design for a fifteen foot launch in steel; I'm sure it could be converted to origami. If you asked Paul Fisher, he might get keen enough to design you what you want. Jonathan. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager wrote: > > hello group > > lurking a while (understanding only half of the themes and tech speech) > - what the hell is 40 gauge wire ore sheet metall thckness??) > Situated in austria near the danube, I`m asking for a real small origami > design for a motordriven rivercruiser. > What is the thinnesd (?) steel sheet thickness to build origami? > I`m trying to do a small boat (length about 6m[20feet Igess?], and 2,4m > broad [8feet?]). this dimension is allowed to go by trailer without > expensive guide, > it must be also have a weigthing under 3000kg (~al little bit under 6000 > lbs(?)) to be allowed to travel along the streets,... > (if I`m out of labor (because of elderness - 15 years to that point) it > would no more be necessary (most of the time) to go by road, but in the > meantime I have to do some transportation on the road - therefore the > limits in weight and widh. > > any links, designs, hints welcome > > regards helmut schlager > | 22324|22255|2010-01-29 14:59:48|theboilerflue|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|interesting I had no idea --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Once the super fine screens are soaked in diesel the surface tension in water won't let it go thru. You can buy the big plastic funnels with super fine screens in them and try to get water to go thru diesel soaked sceens . It won't go thru. > Baja filtres start with a coarse screen then a finer one then a super fine screen, which will stop water if it is diesel soaked first. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Brent are you saying the screens stop water from going through? I was under the assumption that these screens were for particulates only. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Most indistrial suppliers have the fine screens . > > > Baja filtres are easy to make , but if I were doing mine again, I'd leave the downpipe sticking up inside the filtre an inch or more, to stop any drops of water that may have made it past the screen. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > I was thinking of sometime making my own baja filter sometime any one know of a good source for fine screens to use? > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Wild > > > > > I would not burn anything but diesel fuel in a diesel engine. > > > > > Like Denis says. What you do is going to be ignited at > > > > > approx 1200 degrees in a metal chamber which has very strict rules on how > > > > > this is to happen and when . > > > > > if you change the rating of the fuel it happens earlier or later -both are > > > > > bad news for you and your engine . > > > > > I do not muck around with the fuel in my diesel. Not only is my life but the life of my wife and kids would be at risk. > > > > >  One day you might be sitting in a nice harbour with out a care in the world. You might feel a shock wave roll through the anchorage. I would be cutting my dock lines or my anchor rode and heading out to deep water. That diesel engine better fire up and fast because you could only have 3 minutes till all hell breaks loose. > > > > > Are you a diesel mechanic? > > > > > 300 000km is nothing on a diesel. My friends who drove the sh1t out of there diesels could get 300 000km on them. My last VW had 800 000km then the odometer broke, my mechanic bought it from me and drove it over 1 000 000 km without a rebuild. > > > > > Filter your fuel! Baja filter when you fill the tank, filter it from your main tank to your day tank and filter it on its way to the engine. > > > > > Take good care of your fuel. A diesel engine is very different then a gas engine. > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/24/10, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: wild_explorer > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel messing witches spells > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Received: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:19 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Denis, > > > > > > > > > > I am enjoying reading your opinion. More likely you are the expert on AUTOMOTIVE engines. It is unlikely, that people will put "last generation, green-technology, fancy BMW or Mercedes" automotive engine on a boat. You just gave them very good reason not to do it. > > > > > > > > > > There is noticeable difference between automotive (passenger car) and marine/industrial diesel engines. Marine/industrial diesel engines built for reliability and able to withstand reasonable abuse. Such engines are not so sensitive to the quality of diesel fuel as automotive engines. > > > > > > > > > > I see owners of passenger cars who has 300,000 miles on odometer in 10-20 years and very proud of such fact. Let see. > > > > > > > > > > 300,000/40 mi/hr = 7500 hours of running engine during the life of the car (10-20 years) with all scheduled engine maintenance. > > > > > > > > > > Marine engine running 365/7/24 (1 year) - 365x24 = 8760 hours with no maintenance (just regular check on running engine). And such diesel engines last about 10-15 years with scheduled maintenance. It could be different for small marine engines, but they do not need to run 365/7/24. > > > > > > > > > > See the difference?? ? > > > > > > > > > > Marine diesel fuel is lower grade than diesel fuel for cars. No problems. So, it is limitation of the engine design, not diesel engine itself. > > > > > > > > > > This engine (see link below) runs on diesel/bio-diesel fuel as well as on aviation kerosene (which will damage your fancy automotive engine). Why? Because it was the REQUIREMENT for this engine to run on it and designers just complied with it. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.dieselmo torcycles. com/engineering. htm > > > > > > > > > > Second: Who is talking about mixing diesel fuel with Ethanol alcohol and running engine on such mixture all the time(or long time) for marine application? We are talking about removing water from main fuel tank and killing bacterias/microbes in the tank. > > > > > > > > > > I agree, what is OK for marine engines, might not be usable for automotive engines. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > DEAR GORD AND ALL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the reason I was alarmist about fuel is that it is a nightmare area if you > > > > > > are inclined to become a physicist on the basis of a 30 minute fuel think > > > > > > in on the web . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22325|22255|2010-01-29 15:09:44|Carl Anderson|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|That is how the Mr Funnel works too. Has two of these screens and is over 6" diameter. Carl, sv-mom.com theboilerflue wrote: > > > interesting I had no idea > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Once the super fine screens are soaked in diesel the surface tension > in water won't let it go thru. You can buy the big plastic funnels with > super fine screens in them and try to get water to go thru diesel soaked > sceens . It won't go thru. > > Baja filtres start with a coarse screen then a finer one then a super > fine screen, which will stop water if it is diesel soaked first. > > | 22326|22255|2010-01-29 15:13:50|theboilerflue|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|I was just looking at their website they seem pretty reasonable I don't think I'd be able to find the materials to make a baja filter any cheaper than they Mr Funnel sells for. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > That is how the Mr Funnel works too. > Has two of these screens and is over 6" diameter. > > Carl, > sv-mom.com > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > interesting I had no idea > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Once the super fine screens are soaked in diesel the surface tension > > in water won't let it go thru. You can buy the big plastic funnels with > > super fine screens in them and try to get water to go thru diesel soaked > > sceens . It won't go thru. > > > Baja filtres start with a coarse screen then a finer one then a super > > fine screen, which will stop water if it is diesel soaked first. > > > > | 22328|22328|2010-01-30 00:05:38|hotelechovictorkilo|3/16 versus 5mm Plate|Hi I can only get 5mm steel plate, do you think the extra weight will affect the 31 footers sailing ability by much? Craig| 22329|22327|2010-01-30 00:35:43|tropical_breeze52|Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria?|Hi Craig Not yet but working towards it Haydn --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > Hi > > Anyone building a BS design in the Melbourne area? > > Craig > | 22330|22330|2010-01-30 04:06:41|samuelpattani|A new selection of giveaways for members. Jan 28|Hello Everyone! Here is a FRESH selection of stuff members can collect for nothing There is lots to grab in this new Giveaway Mix! http://groups.google.com/group/amazing-freebies/web/bumper-giveaways-jan-28 Enjoy!| 22332|22327|2010-01-30 08:52:40|tropical_breeze52|Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria?|Hi Graig BS 36 bilge keeler Graig Ive been looking for the right design been down the Pratique 35 and looked at 36 spray but wanted as bilge keeler in a single chine found the Brent Swain designs and this what Ive been searching for as Im nearing retirement wanted a no frill down to earrh boat that I can scrub her hull with out a marina crane and do the maintance on her --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > Hi Haydn > > Great. What size are you planning on building? I am in NW Melbourne near the Airport > > Craig > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Craig > > Not yet but working towards it > > Haydn > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > Anyone building a BS design in the Melbourne area? > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > | 22333|22255|2010-01-30 09:25:11|tropical_breeze52|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|Hi Im an old diesel fitter worked in mining and at the moment the construction Industry I can tell you the best thing to do is filter your fuel as much as possible be it before it goes into the fuel tanks and make sure you have good quality filtering systems . Every day I see fuel damage to diesel engines we are forever pulling out fuel tanks and cleaning them if you dont you end up with problems in you injector pumps and thats a lot of $$$$ down the drain and could be your life . Ive seen living mould in fuel tanks. I still recall my old Dad on the farm (back in the 50s) had a galvanised fuel funel with a extremely fine filter in the bottom of it it work a treat . Ive seem fuel hose that you use to top up your boat tank inside some times the interior of the hose breaks down and little balls of rubber or what ever wash down with the fuel and end up in your fuel tank and roll around in the bottom of your tak block you outlet to your fuel pump your motor stops and your in a storm not if you take precautions it wont . Look at like this would you drink containiated water hopfully not so dont containinate your diesel fuel treat it like your drinking water both could save your life --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I remember reading about a couple off central America having to motor off a lee shore agaist a steep chop with water flowing down the decks . The fuel tank was almost empty, and they couldn't put more in from their gerry cans, because of the water on deck. They had those goofy little yachtie "flush " fillers. That is why I always advocate 1 1/2 inch sch 40 fillers , standingn several inces above the decks, with standard ss caps on them. They can be put in out of the way places near the centreline( so they don't go underwater in a knock down, when someone forgot to screw the caps on tight enough. ) Flush fillers have no place on an ocean going yacht, especially not on the side decks.. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 06:58:28AM -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Good filtration starts with running ALL of your incoming diesel through > > > a water separating filter funnel (I just found a great deal on them from > > > Mr. Funnel & got one that will pass 15 gallons per minute for $40). > > > In fact I just had my boat filled late December while "on-the-hard" from > > > the land based diesel supplier (the guy who delivers to the marina) > > > hoping that this would be the cleanest fuel and the filter funnel caught > > > a bit of general crud (looked like some sand & little black pieces of > > > ???) but no water. And his response was "I don't know how that got in > > > there!" > > > > I saw a grungy, crusty sailor-type in Nassau, Bahamas using a T-shirt as > > a filter while filling up. All the gold-plated yachties around him > > sneered and laughed... until he dumped what looked like a 1/4 lb. of > > sand out of that T-shirt. Then, they all scurried off in a panic to find > > a mechanic who would clean out the fuel in their tanks. > > > > I've got a big Baja filter and use it unless I'm absolutely certain of > > the fuel supplier. > > > > Here's a big tip if you're going cruising: don't install the tiny > > "yachty" fuel fill that they sell at West Marine; get the big commercial > > type. This will enable you to fill up at big commercial facilities in > > wild and wooly places, assuming you can convince these guys to take care > > of you - they're often the only ones who have good fuel. If you don't > > have a big fill and a good air vent on your tank... well, the US Navy > > fuel point on the East coast of Puerto Rico told me that they pump at > > 150 gallons *per minute*. It wasn't quite that fast - it took them > > almost 3 minutes to fill my 113 gallon tank - but it would blow a > > standard plastic boat setup right apart. > > > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > | 22334|22255|2010-01-30 09:40:28|tropical_breeze52|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|I meant to add make sure you have a water seperator similiar to a what on Yanmars engine nothing fancy you can tap it off with a hammer and screw driver would its just a clear bowl with s spin on aluminium threaded flange that you can easily see it there is any containination in your fuel In the construction Industry we tend to serice the filter around the 250 hours spin off the water seperator and check for contaminationa and clean it and relpace the fuel filter at the same time --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hi Im an old diesel fitter worked in mining and at the moment the construction Industry I can tell you the best thing to do is filter your fuel as much as possible be it before it goes into the fuel tanks and make sure you have good quality filtering systems . Every day I see fuel damage to diesel engines we are forever pulling out fuel tanks and cleaning them if you dont you end up with problems in you injector pumps and thats a lot of $$$$ down the drain and could be your life . Ive seen living mould in fuel tanks. I still recall my old Dad on the farm (back in the 50s) had a galvanised fuel funel with a extremely fine filter in the bottom of it it work a treat . Ive seem fuel hose that you use to top up your boat tank inside some times the interior of the hose breaks down and little balls of rubber or what ever wash down with the fuel and end up in your fuel tank and roll around in the bottom of your tak block you outlet to your fuel pump your motor stops and your in a storm not if you take precautions it wont . Look at like this would you drink containiated water hopfully not so dont containinate your diesel fuel treat it like your drinking water both could save your life > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I remember reading about a couple off central America having to motor off a lee shore agaist a steep chop with water flowing down the decks . The fuel tank was almost empty, and they couldn't put more in from their gerry cans, because of the water on deck. They had those goofy little yachtie "flush " fillers. That is why I always advocate 1 1/2 inch sch 40 fillers , standingn several inces above the decks, with standard ss caps on them. They can be put in out of the way places near the centreline( so they don't go underwater in a knock down, when someone forgot to screw the caps on tight enough. ) Flush fillers have no place on an ocean going yacht, especially not on the side decks.. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 06:58:28AM -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > > > Good filtration starts with running ALL of your incoming diesel through > > > > a water separating filter funnel (I just found a great deal on them from > > > > Mr. Funnel & got one that will pass 15 gallons per minute for $40). > > > > In fact I just had my boat filled late December while "on-the-hard" from > > > > the land based diesel supplier (the guy who delivers to the marina) > > > > hoping that this would be the cleanest fuel and the filter funnel caught > > > > a bit of general crud (looked like some sand & little black pieces of > > > > ???) but no water. And his response was "I don't know how that got in > > > > there!" > > > > > > I saw a grungy, crusty sailor-type in Nassau, Bahamas using a T-shirt as > > > a filter while filling up. All the gold-plated yachties around him > > > sneered and laughed... until he dumped what looked like a 1/4 lb. of > > > sand out of that T-shirt. Then, they all scurried off in a panic to find > > > a mechanic who would clean out the fuel in their tanks. > > > > > > I've got a big Baja filter and use it unless I'm absolutely certain of > > > the fuel supplier. > > > > > > Here's a big tip if you're going cruising: don't install the tiny > > > "yachty" fuel fill that they sell at West Marine; get the big commercial > > > type. This will enable you to fill up at big commercial facilities in > > > wild and wooly places, assuming you can convince these guys to take care > > > of you - they're often the only ones who have good fuel. If you don't > > > have a big fill and a good air vent on your tank... well, the US Navy > > > fuel point on the East coast of Puerto Rico told me that they pump at > > > 150 gallons *per minute*. It wasn't quite that fast - it took them > > > almost 3 minutes to fill my 113 gallon tank - but it would blow a > > > standard plastic boat setup right apart. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > | 22335|22255|2010-01-30 10:06:03|Alan H. Boucher|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|The best solution is two filters, valved so that you can run on one while cleaning the other. On 1/30/2010 9:40 AM, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > I meant to add make sure you have a water seperator similiar to a what > on Yanmars engine nothing fancy you can tap it off with a hammer and > screw driver would its just a clear bowl with s spin on aluminium > threaded flange that you can easily see it there is any containination > in your fuel In the construction Industry we tend to serice the filter > around the 250 hours spin off the water seperator and check for > contaminationa and clean it and relpace the fuel filter at the same time > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "tropical_breeze52" > wrote: > > > > Hi Im an old diesel fitter worked in mining and at the moment the > construction Industry I can tell you the best thing to do is filter > your fuel as much as possible be it before it goes into the fuel tanks > and make sure you have good quality filtering systems . Every day I > see fuel damage to diesel engines we are forever pulling out fuel > tanks and cleaning them if you dont you end up with problems in you > injector pumps and thats a lot of $$$$ down the drain and could be > your life . Ive seen living mould in fuel tanks. I still recall my old > Dad on the farm (back in the 50s) had a galvanised fuel funel with a > extremely fine filter in the bottom of it it work a treat . Ive seem > fuel hose that you use to top up your boat tank inside some times the > interior of the hose breaks down and little balls of rubber or what > ever wash down with the fuel and end up in your fuel tank and roll > around in the bottom of your tak block you outlet to your fuel pump > your motor stops and your in a storm not if you take precautions it > wont . Look at like this would you drink containiated water hopfully > not so dont containinate your diesel fuel treat it like your drinking > water both could save your life > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > I remember reading about a couple off central America having to > motor off a lee shore agaist a steep chop with water flowing down the > decks . The fuel tank was almost empty, and they couldn't put more in > from their gerry cans, because of the water on deck. They had those > goofy little yachtie "flush " fillers. That is why I always advocate 1 > 1/2 inch sch 40 fillers , standingn several inces above the decks, > with standard ss caps on them. They can be put in out of the way > places near the centreline( so they don't go underwater in a knock > down, when someone forgot to screw the caps on tight enough. ) Flush > fillers have no place on an ocean going yacht, especially not on the > side decks.. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 06:58:28AM -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Good filtration starts with running ALL of your incoming > diesel through > > > > > a water separating filter funnel (I just found a great deal on > them from > > > > > Mr. Funnel & got one that will pass 15 gallons per minute for > $40). > > > > > In fact I just had my boat filled late December while > "on-the-hard" from > > > > > the land based diesel supplier (the guy who delivers to the > marina) > > > > > hoping that this would be the cleanest fuel and the filter > funnel caught > > > > > a bit of general crud (looked like some sand & little black > pieces of > > > > > ???) but no water. And his response was "I don't know how that > got in > > > > > there!" > > > > > > > > I saw a grungy, crusty sailor-type in Nassau, Bahamas using a > T-shirt as > > > > a filter while filling up. All the gold-plated yachties around him > > > > sneered and laughed... until he dumped what looked like a 1/4 lb. of > > > > sand out of that T-shirt. Then, they all scurried off in a panic > to find > > > > a mechanic who would clean out the fuel in their tanks. > > > > > > > > I've got a big Baja filter and use it unless I'm absolutely > certain of > > > > the fuel supplier. > > > > > > > > Here's a big tip if you're going cruising: don't install the tiny > > > > "yachty" fuel fill that they sell at West Marine; get the big > commercial > > > > type. This will enable you to fill up at big commercial > facilities in > > > > wild and wooly places, assuming you can convince these guys to > take care > > > > of you - they're often the only ones who have good fuel. If you > don't > > > > have a big fill and a good air vent on your tank... well, the US > Navy > > > > fuel point on the East coast of Puerto Rico told me that they > pump at > > > > 150 gallons *per minute*. It wasn't quite that fast - it took them > > > > almost 3 minutes to fill my 113 gallon tank - but it would blow a > > > > standard plastic boat setup right apart. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22336|22255|2010-01-30 14:14:47|brentswain38|Re: Fuel messing witches spells|That's why I like to put a long cylindrical screen if very fine mesh, formed around a pipe , in the bottom of the tank, on the end of the pickup line. That gives you the maximum surface area for your screen , minimising the chances of it being blocked . That also keeps th e little bits, and any loose paint , in your fuel tank, before they have a chance to get to your fuel line. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hi Im an old diesel fitter worked in mining and at the moment the construction Industry I can tell you the best thing to do is filter your fuel as much as possible be it before it goes into the fuel tanks and make sure you have good quality filtering systems . Every day I see fuel damage to diesel engines we are forever pulling out fuel tanks and cleaning them if you dont you end up with problems in you injector pumps and thats a lot of $$$$ down the drain and could be your life . Ive seen living mould in fuel tanks. I still recall my old Dad on the farm (back in the 50s) had a galvanised fuel funel with a extremely fine filter in the bottom of it it work a treat . Ive seem fuel hose that you use to top up your boat tank inside some times the interior of the hose breaks down and little balls of rubber or what ever wash down with the fuel and end up in your fuel tank and roll around in the bottom of your tak block you outlet to your fuel pump your motor stops and your in a storm not if you take precautions it wont . Look at like this would you drink containiated water hopfully not so dont containinate your diesel fuel treat it like your drinking water both could save your life > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I remember reading about a couple off central America having to motor off a lee shore agaist a steep chop with water flowing down the decks . The fuel tank was almost empty, and they couldn't put more in from their gerry cans, because of the water on deck. They had those goofy little yachtie "flush " fillers. That is why I always advocate 1 1/2 inch sch 40 fillers , standingn several inces above the decks, with standard ss caps on them. They can be put in out of the way places near the centreline( so they don't go underwater in a knock down, when someone forgot to screw the caps on tight enough. ) Flush fillers have no place on an ocean going yacht, especially not on the side decks.. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 06:58:28AM -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > > > Good filtration starts with running ALL of your incoming diesel through > > > > a water separating filter funnel (I just found a great deal on them from > > > > Mr. Funnel & got one that will pass 15 gallons per minute for $40). > > > > In fact I just had my boat filled late December while "on-the-hard" from > > > > the land based diesel supplier (the guy who delivers to the marina) > > > > hoping that this would be the cleanest fuel and the filter funnel caught > > > > a bit of general crud (looked like some sand & little black pieces of > > > > ???) but no water. And his response was "I don't know how that got in > > > > there!" > > > > > > I saw a grungy, crusty sailor-type in Nassau, Bahamas using a T-shirt as > > > a filter while filling up. All the gold-plated yachties around him > > > sneered and laughed... until he dumped what looked like a 1/4 lb. of > > > sand out of that T-shirt. Then, they all scurried off in a panic to find > > > a mechanic who would clean out the fuel in their tanks. > > > > > > I've got a big Baja filter and use it unless I'm absolutely certain of > > > the fuel supplier. > > > > > > Here's a big tip if you're going cruising: don't install the tiny > > > "yachty" fuel fill that they sell at West Marine; get the big commercial > > > type. This will enable you to fill up at big commercial facilities in > > > wild and wooly places, assuming you can convince these guys to take care > > > of you - they're often the only ones who have good fuel. If you don't > > > have a big fill and a good air vent on your tank... well, the US Navy > > > fuel point on the East coast of Puerto Rico told me that they pump at > > > 150 gallons *per minute*. It wasn't quite that fast - it took them > > > almost 3 minutes to fill my 113 gallon tank - but it would blow a > > > standard plastic boat setup right apart. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > > > > | 22337|22327|2010-01-30 14:19:06|brentswain38|Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria?|I'm unaware ogf any being built there. Lately I can't sem to get into mesages. It only brings up a single message. The only ones I can get into are home. Anyone else having this problem , or could it be just this computer? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > Hi Haydn > > Great. What size are you planning on building? I am in NW Melbourne near the Airport > > Craig > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Craig > > Not yet but working towards it > > Haydn > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > Anyone building a BS design in the Melbourne area? > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > | 22338|22338|2010-01-30 15:31:40|Don & Karina|Re: fuel tanks-alcohol|_____ I don't often pipe up as there are so many experts on this group but could one not use some isopropyl alcohol in the fuel tanks to get rid of the water. We do this in our diesel fuel stove at the cottage. We add about one tablespoon of alcohol to 2-1/2 gallons of diesel every five tankfulls or so. The alcohol mixes well with water and then is burnt just like the rest of the diesel. Maybe someone else has tried this. It works for our application. The alcohol would definitely kill any bacteria. Just a thought. Don Bourgeois [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22341|22338|2010-01-30 16:46:39|David Frantz|Re: fuel tanks-alcohol|That is what "dry gas" for gasoline engines is. How well I works with diesel I can't say. If it mixes properly with the diesel I don't see a problem. However I'm not an expert by any means. Diesel itself gets reformulated depending upon environmetal conditions so you do have to take that into consideration. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Jan 30, 2010, at 3:31 PM, Don & Karina wrote: > > > > > _____ > > > > I don't often pipe up as there are so many experts on this > > group but could one not use some isopropyl alcohol in the fuel > > tanks to get rid of the water. We do this in our diesel fuel stove > > at the cottage. We add about one tablespoon of alcohol to 2-1/2 > gallons > > of diesel every five tankfulls or so. The alcohol mixes well with > water and > then > > is burnt just like the rest of the diesel. Maybe someone else has > tried > this. > > It works for our application. The alcohol would definitely kill any > > bacteria. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > Don Bourgeois > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22342|22327|2010-01-30 18:21:52|tropical_breeze52|Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria?|Hi Craig As I price steel ect Ill let you know how I go over the next few months vis versa we might be able to save a few Dollars here and there between us Cheers haydn --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > All noted haydn, good luck with the project. > > Craig > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Graig > > BS 36 bilge keeler Graig Ive been looking for the right design been down the Pratique 35 and looked at 36 spray but wanted as bilge keeler in a single chine found the Brent Swain designs and this what Ive been searching for as Im nearing retirement wanted a no frill down to earrh boat that I can scrub her hull with out a marina crane and do the maintance on her > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Haydn > > > > > > Great. What size are you planning on building? I am in NW Melbourne near the Airport > > > > > > Craig > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Craig > > > > Not yet but working towards it > > > > Haydn > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > Anyone building a BS design in the Melbourne area? > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22344|22311|2010-01-31 05:57:24|Harry|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|I too have purchased plans from Jay Benford for the Friday Harbour Ferry 24' version. Would love to build it using the origami steel method, using steel or aluminum. The plans are only available for plywood. Can these plans work in steel if one were to build it lighter by: 1.Eliminating the diesel donk and use a small 4 stroke outboard in a well; 2.lighten the superstructure/furnishings using lighter materials. Would one have to use a different hull or start the design from scratch? Harry Tams Tasmania --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > Sorry the first link doesn't take you all the way. When the page opens scroll down to the 20' False Creek ferry and open the PDF. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > Try this one Helmut. > > > > http://www.benford.us/index.html?lists.html > > > > A little bit different but a great river boat. The Friday harbour ferry at 20ft x 8ft and 4250 lbs, in ply; but could be done in steel. There are a dozen of these being run on Vancouver harbour as ferries carrying 12 passengers > > > > http://www.granvilleislandferries.bc.ca/ > > > > I have the plans for this little tub and intend to do an origami conversion to build in stitch and glue ply, but it could be done in steel with a bit of thought. > > > > have fun > | 22345|22311|2010-01-31 07:27:21|Helmut Schlager|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|hello this guy is building with 3mm and the deckstructure with 2mm steelplate thickness http://www.yago-project.com/content/blogcategory/93/102/lang,ger/ or better for you (I checked same text in english as well) http://www.yago-project.com/content/blogcategory/93/102/lang,en/ scroll down to cahpter: "June 20th - getting hot " so I´m thinking (hoping) that this rule of thumbs are not the end of possibilitys... As I dont have practice in origamiboutbulding I`m asking here about your thougts... if the length shrinks down to 20 feet (6m) shouldnt the thickness of sheetmetal also decrease? - and even more than the length? - also to have in mind, that the roughness of use for river and canalcruising is not as wild as for going over the ocean,.. a calculation for the weigth (rule of thumb): (If I calculate [rough] a half cylinder: 6m x 2,5m x 3,14/2 x 0,003m x specific weight = araound 550 kg) If I do the rest in plywood, there should be a weight possible of around 1000kg at the end for the finished boat? or did I forget something an experienced builder will know? (sorry for BSE [bad, simple english]) regards helmut gcode fi (hanermo) schrieb: > > > The commonly used rule of thumb is about 10 m minimum length for a metal > boat. > As Brents designs are slightly more efficient, ie lighter, the smaller > ones still work at around 30 ft. > > The practical minimum sheet thickness for metal boats is about 4 mm. > > If you wanted to do a boat from say 3 mm thick sheets, welding would > distort them, as would working on them. > Also, all scantlings etc. are based on sheets thick enough to stand > walking etc. > At 3 mm the sheets may plop or bend, unless internal extra framing is > put in. > > As a skin, the 3 mm is more than strong enough ... but might rust ! and > would by it´s very nature probably be distorted during the build. > > As a practical choice, I don´t think a steel boat is a good option for > your river cruiser. > I would suggest cold molded plywood - > It´s fast to build, easy to do, strong. By weight, it is stronger than a > steel boat. > By weight, it is the strongest, lightest best boatbuilding material I > know of. > Like steel, working with it is easy and does not require large amounts > of expensive exotic tools. > > Also, as a river cruiser, ultimate yield strength which is best in steel > boats, will not be a requirement. > You are unlikely for example to hit a container floating under the > surface, and moorings (and help) are always near. > > Google for cold molded plywood boats ... ;) > > > hello group > > > > lurking a while (understanding only half of the themes and tech speech) > > - what the hell is 40 gauge wire ore sheet metall thckness??) > > Situated in austria near the danube, I`m asking for a real small > origami > > design for a motordriven rivercruiser. > > What is the thinnesd (?) steel sheet thickness to build origami? > > I`m trying to do a small boat (length about 6m[20feet Igess?], and 2,4m > > broad [8feet?]). this dimension is allowed to go by trailer without > > expensive guide, > > it must be also have a weigthing under 3000kg (~al little bit under > 6000 > > lbs(?)) to be allowed to travel along the streets,... > > (if I`m out of labor (because of elderness - 15 years to that point) it > > would no more be necessary (most of the time) to go by road, but in the > > meantime I have to do some transportation on the road - therefore the > > limits in weight and widh. > > > > any links, designs, hints welcome > > > > regards helmut schlager > > > > | 22346|22346|2010-01-31 08:29:50|tropical_breeze52|metric conversion for the hull sheets Australia|I just down loads Brents pdf with the hull material list and will convert to metric as Australia is metric on steel http://www.xlerplate.com.au/files/dmfile/XLERPLATESizeScheduleNov2009.pdf The above link is a blue scope steel sheet sizes I can get the lenght no worries and width can be up to 3.2 meters wide What thickness would you recomend 5 or 6 mm Brents pdf reads 3/16 thick for some reason I thought the hull sheets were 1/4" not 3/16? Haydn| 22347|22311|2010-01-31 11:03:37|gcode fi (hanermo)|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|Obviously it is possible, as cars are about 1.5 mm sheet steel. And this guys work re: welding actually looks really good. I am impressed. BUT ... Are you an expert welder ? Will you learn to that level ? Are you willing to Mig and TIG weld ? Can you afford the machines ? It is hard, and fraught with problems, to work on thin sheets for a boat. You will get lots of risks and possible problems with corrosion. So, if you think you can work at the very hardest part of the work-envelope, I dont think there is any reason why you could not, technically, work from thin sheet. Re: the total mass, you are maybe missing about 2/3 of the totals. Engine, engine beds, tankage. Insulation (Which You must have). Pipes, wires, batteries etc. Pilothouse. Systems. Sanitation (legal requirement, I believe (might want to check on this)). Size of hull is about 6 x 2,5 m (x 2 top and bottom) x + 6 m x 2,5 m (x 2 both sides). The extras will come in the forms of details and interior bits. Say 60 sq m. 20 kg/m2 x 3 mm x 60 = = 3600 kg. This realistically includes plywood framing and some minimal interiors. Tanks 200 kg. Engine 100 kg. Batterys + cables 100 kg. 1/3 of the work and money is the hull. I think it is not realistic under 3000 kg. I am sure it is possible (but will be far too heavy). Is it worth it ? - You make the choice. All I am saying is that it is much harder, more difficult, heavier and more expensive than it may seem, and has a lot of technical challenges. As per your link, note that he has spent 5 years at it, and has a long way to go. As the other option, A BS is meant to go together fast and easy, in minimal time. > > > hello > > this guy is building with 3mm and the deckstructure with 2mm steelplate > thickness > http://www.yago-project.com/content/blogcategory/93/102/lang,ger/ > > > or better for you (I checked same text in english as well) > > http://www.yago-project.com/content/blogcategory/93/102/lang,en/ > > > scroll down to cahpter: "June 20th - getting hot " > so I´m thinking (hoping) that this rule of thumbs are not the end of > possibilitys... > > As I dont have practice in origamiboutbulding I`m asking here about your > thougts... > if the length shrinks down to 20 feet (6m) shouldnt the thickness of > sheetmetal also decrease? > - and even more than the length? - also to have in mind, that the > roughness of use for river and canalcruising is not as wild as for > going over the ocean,.. > > a calculation for the weigth (rule of thumb): > (If I calculate [rough] a half cylinder: 6m x 2,5m x 3,14/2 x 0,003m x > specific weight = araound 550 kg) > If I do the rest in plywood, there should be a weight possible of around > 1000kg at the end for the finished boat? > or did I forget something an experienced builder will know? > > (sorry for BSE [bad, simple english]) > > regards helmut > > gcode fi (hanermo) schrieb: > > > > > > The commonly used rule of thumb is about 10 m minimum length for a metal > > boat. > > As Brents designs are slightly more efficient, ie lighter, the smaller > > ones still work at around 30 ft. > > > > The practical minimum sheet thickness for metal boats is about 4 mm. > > > > If you wanted to do a boat from say 3 mm thick sheets, welding would > > distort them, as would working on them. > > Also, all scantlings etc. are based on sheets thick enough to stand > > walking etc. > > At 3 mm the sheets may plop or bend, unless internal extra framing is > > put in. > > > > As a skin, the 3 mm is more than strong enough ... but might rust ! and > > would by it´s very nature probably be distorted during the build. > > > > As a practical choice, I don´t think a steel boat is a good option for > > your river cruiser. > > I would suggest cold molded plywood - > > It´s fast to build, easy to do, strong. By weight, it is stronger than a > > steel boat. > > By weight, it is the strongest, lightest best boatbuilding material I > > know of. > > Like steel, working with it is easy and does not require large amounts > > of expensive exotic tools. > > > > Also, as a river cruiser, ultimate yield strength which is best in steel > > boats, will not be a requirement. > > You are unlikely for example to hit a container floating under the > > surface, and moorings (and help) are always near. > > > > Google for cold molded plywood boats ... ;) > > > > > hello group > > > > > > lurking a while (understanding only half of the themes and tech > speech) > > > - what the hell is 40 gauge wire ore sheet metall thckness??) > > > Situated in austria near the danube, I`m asking for a real small > > origami > > > design for a motordriven rivercruiser. > > > What is the thinnesd (?) steel sheet thickness to build origami? > > > I`m trying to do a small boat (length about 6m[20feet Igess?], and > 2,4m > > > broad [8feet?]). this dimension is allowed to go by trailer without > > > expensive guide, > > > it must be also have a weigthing under 3000kg (~al little bit under > > 6000 > > > lbs(?)) to be allowed to travel along the streets,... > > > (if I`m out of labor (because of elderness - 15 years to that > point) it > > > would no more be necessary (most of the time) to go by road, but > in the > > > meantime I have to do some transportation on the road - therefore the > > > limits in weight and widh. > > > > > > any links, designs, hints welcome > > > > > > regards helmut schlager > > > > > > | 22348|22311|2010-01-31 11:05:00|James Pronk|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|This is the 31' Yago. I think if you look at all the photos you will see that he is building a full frame structure inside the hull. Correct me if I'm wrong but 3mm is, I think, thinner then 1/8 (3mm=.118"). 5mm is about .196", 3/16 = .187. James --- On Sun, 1/31/10, Helmut Schlager wrote: From: Helmut Schlager Subject: Re: [origamiboats] simple origami-design for small river cruiser? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, January 31, 2010, 7:27 AM   hello this guy is building with 3mm and the deckstructure with 2mm steelplate thickness http://www.yago- project.com/ content/blogcate gory/93/102/ lang,ger/ or better for you (I checked same text in english as well) http://www.yago- project.com/ content/blogcate gory/93/102/ lang,en/ scroll down to cahpter: "June 20th - getting hot " so I´m thinking (hoping) that this rule of thumbs are not the end of possibilitys. .. As I dont have practice in origamiboutbulding I`m asking here about your thougts... if the length shrinks down to 20 feet (6m) shouldnt the thickness of sheetmetal also decrease? - and even more than the length? - also to have in mind, that the roughness of use for river and canalcruising is not as wild as for going over the ocean,.. a calculation for the weigth (rule of thumb): (If I calculate [rough] a half cylinder: 6m x 2,5m x 3,14/2 x 0,003m x specific weight = araound 550 kg) If I do the rest in plywood, there should be a weight possible of around 1000kg at the end for the finished boat? or did I forget something an experienced builder will know? (sorry for BSE [bad, simple english]) regards helmut gcode fi (hanermo) schrieb: > > > The commonly used rule of thumb is about 10 m minimum length for a metal > boat. > As Brents designs are slightly more efficient, ie lighter, the smaller > ones still work at around 30 ft. > > The practical minimum sheet thickness for metal boats is about 4 mm. > > If you wanted to do a boat from say 3 mm thick sheets, welding would > distort them, as would working on them. > Also, all scantlings etc. are based on sheets thick enough to stand > walking etc. > At 3 mm the sheets may plop or bend, unless internal extra framing is > put in. > > As a skin, the 3 mm is more than strong enough ... but might rust ! and > would by it´s very nature probably be distorted during the build. > > As a practical choice, I don´t think a steel boat is a good option for > your river cruiser. > I would suggest cold molded plywood - > It´s fast to build, easy to do, strong. By weight, it is stronger than a > steel boat. > By weight, it is the strongest, lightest best boatbuilding material I > know of. > Like steel, working with it is easy and does not require large amounts > of expensive exotic tools. > > Also, as a river cruiser, ultimate yield strength which is best in steel > boats, will not be a requirement. > You are unlikely for example to hit a container floating under the > surface, and moorings (and help) are always near. > > Google for cold molded plywood boats ... ;) > > > hello group > > > > lurking a while (understanding only half of the themes and tech speech) > > - what the hell is 40 gauge wire ore sheet metall thckness??) > > Situated in austria near the danube, I`m asking for a real small > origami > > design for a motordriven rivercruiser. > > What is the thinnesd (?) steel sheet thickness to build origami? > > I`m trying to do a small boat (length about 6m[20feet Igess?], and 2,4m > > broad [8feet?]). this dimension is allowed to go by trailer without > > expensive guide, > > it must be also have a weigthing under 3000kg (~al little bit under > 6000 > > lbs(?)) to be allowed to travel along the streets,... > > (if I`m out of labor (because of elderness - 15 years to that point) it > > would no more be necessary (most of the time) to go by road, but in the > > meantime I have to do some transportation on the road - therefore the > > limits in weight and widh. > > > > any links, designs, hints welcome > > > > regards helmut schlager > > > > __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22349|22311|2010-01-31 11:10:32|James Pronk|Re: simple origami-design for small river cruiser?|Sorry I thought I was responding to another question. You are talking about a twenty foot long boat. James --- On Sun, 1/31/10, James Pronk wrote: From: James Pronk Subject: Re: [origamiboats] simple origami-design for small river cruiser? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, January 31, 2010, 11:02 AM   This is the 31' Yago. I think if you look at all the photos you will see that he is building a full frame structure inside the hull. Correct me if I'm wrong but 3mm is, I think, thinner then 1/8 (3mm=.118"). 5mm is about .196", 3/16 = .187. James --- On Sun, 1/31/10, Helmut Schlager wrote: From: Helmut Schlager Subject: Re: [origamiboats] simple origami-design for small river cruiser? To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Received: Sunday, January 31, 2010, 7:27 AM   hello this guy is building with 3mm and the deckstructure with 2mm steelplate thickness http://www.yago- project.com/ content/blogcate gory/93/102/ lang,ger/ or better for you (I checked same text in english as well) http://www.yago- project.com/ content/blogcate gory/93/102/ lang,en/ scroll down to cahpter: "June 20th - getting hot " so I´m thinking (hoping) that this rule of thumbs are not the end of possibilitys. .. As I dont have practice in origamiboutbulding I`m asking here about your thougts... if the length shrinks down to 20 feet (6m) shouldnt the thickness of sheetmetal also decrease? - and even more than the length? - also to have in mind, that the roughness of use for river and canalcruising is not as wild as for going over the ocean,.. a calculation for the weigth (rule of thumb): (If I calculate [rough] a half cylinder: 6m x 2,5m x 3,14/2 x 0,003m x specific weight = araound 550 kg) If I do the rest in plywood, there should be a weight possible of around 1000kg at the end for the finished boat? or did I forget something an experienced builder will know? (sorry for BSE [bad, simple english]) regards helmut gcode fi (hanermo) schrieb: > > > The commonly used rule of thumb is about 10 m minimum length for a metal > boat. > As Brents designs are slightly more efficient, ie lighter, the smaller > ones still work at around 30 ft. > > The practical minimum sheet thickness for metal boats is about 4 mm. > > If you wanted to do a boat from say 3 mm thick sheets, welding would > distort them, as would working on them. > Also, all scantlings etc. are based on sheets thick enough to stand > walking etc. > At 3 mm the sheets may plop or bend, unless internal extra framing is > put in. > > As a skin, the 3 mm is more than strong enough ... but might rust ! and > would by it´s very nature probably be distorted during the build. > > As a practical choice, I don´t think a steel boat is a good option for > your river cruiser. > I would suggest cold molded plywood - > It´s fast to build, easy to do, strong. By weight, it is stronger than a > steel boat. > By weight, it is the strongest, lightest best boatbuilding material I > know of. > Like steel, working with it is easy and does not require large amounts > of expensive exotic tools. > > Also, as a river cruiser, ultimate yield strength which is best in steel > boats, will not be a requirement. > You are unlikely for example to hit a container floating under the > surface, and moorings (and help) are always near. > > Google for cold molded plywood boats ... ;) > > > hello group > > > > lurking a while (understanding only half of the themes and tech speech) > > - what the hell is 40 gauge wire ore sheet metall thckness??) > > Situated in austria near the danube, I`m asking for a real small > origami > > design for a motordriven rivercruiser. > > What is the thinnesd (?) steel sheet thickness to build origami? > > I`m trying to do a small boat (length about 6m[20feet Igess?], and 2,4m > > broad [8feet?]). this dimension is allowed to go by trailer without > > expensive guide, > > it must be also have a weigthing under 3000kg (~al little bit under > 6000 > > lbs(?)) to be allowed to travel along the streets,... > > (if I`m out of labor (because of elderness - 15 years to that point) it > > would no more be necessary (most of the time) to go by road, but in the > > meantime I have to do some transportation on the road - therefore the > > limits in weight and widh. > > > > any links, designs, hints welcome > > > > regards helmut schlager > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail. yahoo.ca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22350|22346|2010-01-31 14:22:10|Aaron Williams|Re: metric conversion for the hull sheets Australia|Best conversion program I have found http://joshmadison.com/software/convert-for-windows/ Aaron --- On Sun, 1/31/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: From: tropical_breeze52 Subject: [origamiboats] metric conversion for the hull sheets Australia To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 31, 2010, 4:29 AM   I just down loads Brents pdf with the hull material list and will convert to metric as Australia is metric on steel http://www.xlerplat e.com.au/ files/dmfile/ XLERPLATESizeSch eduleNov2009. pdf The above link is a blue scope steel sheet sizes I can get the lenght no worries and width can be up to 3.2 meters wide What thickness would you recomend 5 or 6 mm Brents pdf reads 3/16 thick for some reason I thought the hull sheets were 1/4" not 3/16? Haydn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22351|22346|2010-01-31 15:07:43|Ben Okopnik|Re: metric conversion for the hull sheets Australia|On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 11:22:03AM -0800, Aaron Williams wrote: > Best conversion program I have found > http://joshmadison.com/software/convert-for-windows/ Try typing in your conversion, or math formula, into Google's search box. 12.37 feet in meters 647 square inches in square decimeters sqrt(20^2 + 30^2) $13489 USD in AUD and so on. It's a pretty clever gadget. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22352|22346|2010-01-31 15:08:27|theboilerflue|Re: metric conversion for the hull sheets Australia|the hull of brents boat are 3/16" (4.7625mm) the keels and integral tank are 1/4"(6.35 mm) and before you ask nominal pipe size (sch 40, ect) is explained here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_Pipe_Size sch 40 is just normal gas pipe and is very common. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > I just down loads Brents pdf with the hull material list and will convert to metric as Australia is metric on steel > http://www.xlerplate.com.au/files/dmfile/XLERPLATESizeScheduleNov2009.pdf > The above link is a blue scope steel sheet sizes > I can get the lenght no worries and width can be up to 3.2 meters wide What thickness would you recomend 5 or 6 mm Brents pdf reads 3/16 thick for some reason I thought the hull sheets were 1/4" not 3/16? > Haydn > | 22353|22346|2010-01-31 15:22:43|tropical_breeze52|Re: metric conversion for the hull sheets Australia|Hi I guess I didnt explain myself as I browsed through the building process I had seen s/s pipe witten in not Galvanised pipe . All I was concerned with was mainly the weight factor not the actual conversions I guess its not that critical cheers Haydn --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > the hull of brents boat are 3/16" (4.7625mm) the keels and integral tank are 1/4"(6.35 mm) and before you ask nominal pipe size (sch 40, ect) is explained here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_Pipe_Size sch 40 is just normal gas pipe and is very common. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > I just down loads Brents pdf with the hull material list and will convert to metric as Australia is metric on steel > > http://www.xlerplate.com.au/files/dmfile/XLERPLATESizeScheduleNov2009.pdf > > The above link is a blue scope steel sheet sizes > > I can get the lenght no worries and width can be up to 3.2 meters wide What thickness would you recomend 5 or 6 mm Brents pdf reads 3/16 thick for some reason I thought the hull sheets were 1/4" not 3/16? > > Haydn > > > | 22354|22327|2010-02-01 00:42:55|tropical_breeze52|Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria?|Hi Craig Well I checked out 5 mm steel sheet via Blue scope steel They have it listed to over 12 meters but only make up to 9 meter x 2.4x 5mm lengths for a sheet that long blue scope steel quoted me $4200 for two 9 meter sheets9($2100 each) if I wanted longer sheets I would have to buy sheets more than just 2 as they would have to set up the machine ect and its not worth it to them for just two sheets @ 11 or 12 meter lengths I didnt price around as yet as Im after 11 meter dont know where to get it other than malasia and it would need to be sand blasted from there I can tell you Cheers Haydn --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > Hi Graig > BS 36 bilge keeler Graig Ive been looking for the right design been down the Pratique 35 and looked at 36 spray but wanted as bilge keeler in a single chine found the Brent Swain designs and this what Ive been searching for as Im nearing retirement wanted a no frill down to earrh boat that I can scrub her hull with out a marina crane and do the maintance on her > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Haydn > > > > Great. What size are you planning on building? I am in NW Melbourne near the Airport > > > > Craig > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Craig > > > Not yet but working towards it > > > Haydn > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > Anyone building a BS design in the Melbourne area? > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > | 22355|22355|2010-02-01 17:54:05|ANDREW AIREY|Small river cruiser|Hi Have a look what the Dutch do - they've been building in iron/steel in all sizes for over 100 years and they invented yachting.Try the boating section of Speurders.nl to get an idea of the sort of things being offered for sale.I ought to have bid on a 20ft Pottjalk - a variety of very small sailing barge - a few months ago but missed it.3mm is possible if you are a skilled welder or know someone who is,but 4mm gives you a bit more corrosion resistance and strength, since you are much more likely to hit things on a river or canal than you are at sea,floating containers notwithstanding.There may be insurability considerations with 3mm, because insurance companies seem to regard 4mm as a minimum on larger boats[say 15m long) cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 22356|22356|2010-02-01 18:07:49|wild_explorer|Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|I called several recycle companies today to find the price of of scrap lead. I was told that the price of Soft Lead is 3 times more than Hard Lead. Wheel weights are made from Hard Lead = less expensive. Soft Lead: The melting point is 621°F (327°C) Hard Lead(with 10% antimony and 90 lead): has melting point 486°F (252°C) source: http://dictionary.mechanicalengineering.tv/LEAD.html There is some information what the difference is from another source: Quote: "Lead is sold as soft lead, 99.90% pure, common lead (lead that has been desilvered), 99.85% pure, and corroding lead (for paint), 99.94% pure. Hard lead is alloyed with 6%-18% antimony, which increases the strength of the lead. The addition of only 1% Sb or 3% Sn increases the strength by 50%. Hard lead is used for battery plates. Terne plate is heavy sheet steel coated with a lead-tin alloy. 75-25 and 50-50 Pb-Sn alloys are used."| 22357|22355|2010-02-02 00:22:50|Tamsmania|Small river cruiser|I know they have, and they are just what I'm after. I was hoping that the origamiboats crowd would have plans for a boat of this type built in the origami steel/aluminum method. The Benford Friday Harbour Ferry has a lot of room in it. I think their would be a big demand for these type of boats. The Dutch barge is a very popular 'houseboat' for the canals/rivers in the EU. Is there anything out there? Harry Tams --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Hi > > Have a look what the Dutch do - they've been building in iron/steel in all sizes for over 100 years and they invented yachting.Try the boating section of Speurders.nl to get an idea of the sort of things being offered for sale.I ought to have bid on a 20ft Pottjalk - a variety of very small sailing barge - a few months ago but missed it.3mm is possible if you are a skilled welder or know someone who is,but 4mm gives you a bit more corrosion resistance and strength, since you are much more likely to hit things on a river or canal than you are at sea,floating containers notwithstanding.There may be insurability considerations with 3mm, because insurance companies seem to regard 4mm as a minimum on larger boats[say 15m long) > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 22359|22327|2010-02-02 03:37:28|ric|Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria?|Drive around some industrial area and find a fabricator who is using large plate and ask them the source. You will be surprised what you turn up. The big boys are not there for you in the quantities you want. have fun --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > Hi Haydn > > One Steel is also a big seller of steel plate. > They have several different grades in 5mm plate. > | 22360|22327|2010-02-02 07:21:34|tropical_breeze52|Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria?|Hi I only checked quickly yesterday mainly to see if I could the 11 meters in one length which I cant I have a few mates that are fabricators that I havent even asked yet . Ill find the right source as the length I want now is reduced and Ill get trade prices also --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > Drive around some industrial area and find a fabricator who is using large plate and ask them the source. You will be surprised what you turn up. The big boys are not there for you in the quantities you want. > > have fun > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Haydn > > > > One Steel is also a big seller of steel plate. > > They have several different grades in 5mm plate. > > > | 22361|22361|2010-02-02 07:27:20|tropical_breeze52|Surgested Australian steel grade equivelent to Canadian grade|I dont have Brents Book yet but so far I can find is Canadian steel grade W44 which is equivelent to Australian HA250 Whats used in Canada to build the Brent Swain Boats I know you used undercoated steel over there not sure what grade you Canooks use overe there. Would W44 be recomended for hulls?| 22362|22361|2010-02-02 09:53:16|James Pronk|Re: Surgested Australian steel grade equivelent to Canadian grade|TYPE W – Weldable steels for general construction. Available in six strength grades. These steels are widely used for bridges and other dynamically loaded structures. Grade 44W is recommended for normal building construction where field or shop welding procedures are used. Not specifically recommended for low temperature applications.    I think these are a low alloy high strength steel James --- On Tue, 2/2/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: From: tropical_breeze52 Subject: [origamiboats] Surgested Australian steel grade equivelent to Canadian grade To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, February 2, 2010, 7:26 AM   I dont have Brents Book yet but so far I can find is Canadian steel grade W44 which is equivelent to Australian HA250 Whats used in Canada to build the Brent Swain Boats I know you used undercoated steel over there not sure what grade you Canooks use overe there. Would W44 be recomended for hulls? __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22363|22327|2010-02-02 12:13:18|Carl Anderson|interior of MOM|We have added a large (over 350 pictures) PowerPoint presentation showing the complete building of the interior of MOM for those who might be interested. Carl sv-mom.com| 22364|22356|2010-02-02 14:20:42|theboilerflue|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Jim, I got my lead for somewhere between 40 -70 cents a pound, wheel weights are sold cheaper usually cause they're aren't all lead there some steel in there the rest was mostly old lead fitting used in house construction back in the day, ie. plumbing fittings and vent stacks. They replace them all these days with copper or plastic fittings, I called around to all the roofing companies in town to see if I could buy it from them at slightly more than the scrap yard would but had no success, for some reason they seemed to have no idea why I would be looking for lead from them. Really it was kinda infuriating really since the roofing/decking companies I've worked for in the past, I know did save all the lead/copper they took off reno jobs, after calling the 5 top roofing places in town I gave up. But I may be worth a shot. I'm not sure but I imagine if you're melting your own ingots any other metals that are put in with the lead would just float to the top, depending on their density/melting point of course. You're looking for weight not strength. let's see antimony, Density: 6.697 g/cc lead Density: 11.35 g/cc I imagine that would seperate in a melting pot. the bucket of wheel weights I bought at the scrap yard was I believe half scrap lead price - whatever they were charging at the time so that seemed like a good deal since they'd be more than half lead than steel and antimony. so if hard lead is 1/3 the cost minus 10% it would seem that would be a better deal --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I called several recycle companies today to find the price of of scrap lead. I was told that the price of Soft Lead is 3 times more than Hard Lead. > > Wheel weights are made from Hard Lead = less expensive. > > Soft Lead: The melting point is 621°F (327°C) > > Hard Lead(with 10% antimony and 90 lead): has melting point 486°F (252°C) > > source: http://dictionary.mechanicalengineering.tv/LEAD.html > > There is some information what the difference is from another source: > > Quote: > "Lead is sold as soft lead, 99.90% pure, common lead (lead that has been desilvered), 99.85% pure, and corroding lead (for paint), 99.94% pure. Hard lead is alloyed with 6%-18% antimony, which increases the strength of the lead. The addition of only 1% Sb or 3% Sn increases the strength by 50%. Hard lead is used for battery plates. Terne plate is heavy sheet steel coated with a lead-tin alloy. 75-25 and 50-50 Pb-Sn alloys are used." > | 22365|22356|2010-02-02 23:46:20|wild_explorer|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|"theboilerflue", you are right. Well... Unless you personally know owner or manager of the company, people do not want to get in troubles helping "stranger" (private boat builder). It is easier to get lead from recycling company. Recycling companies (at this time) buy wheel_weights/hard_lead for about 15c, soft_lead - about 45c. So price is not so bad even if company makes 25-50% profit selling lead. For ballast, it does not matter much what lead to use. It is easier to work with wheel weights. Sort it by size, split it between keels and measure/adjust the weight to be equal. Put bigger sizes on the bottom of the keel, smaller on top. Melt it with propane torch. Should work good enough. No need to remove steel clips - it will stay on top and seal lead. Easier to put sealing compound on top later. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Jim, I got my lead for somewhere between 40 -70 cents a pound, wheel weights are sold cheaper usually cause they're aren't all lead there some steel in there the rest was mostly old lead fitting used in house construction back in the day, ie. plumbing fittings and vent stacks. They replace them all these days with copper or plastic fittings, I called around to all the roofing companies in town to see if I could buy it from them at slightly more than the scrap yard would but had no success, for some reason they seemed to have no idea why I would be looking for lead from them. Really it was kinda infuriating really since the roofing/decking companies I've worked for in the past, I know did save all the lead/copper they took off reno jobs, after calling the 5 top roofing places in town I gave up. But I may be worth a shot. I'm not sure but I imagine if you're melting your own ingots any other metals that are put in with the lead would just float to the top, depending on their density/melting point of course. You're looking for weight not strength. > let's see antimony, Density: 6.697 g/cc > lead Density: 11.35 g/cc > I imagine that would seperate in a melting pot. > the bucket of wheel weights I bought at the scrap yard was I believe half scrap lead price - whatever they were charging at the time so that seemed like a good deal since they'd be more than half lead than steel and antimony. > > so if hard lead is 1/3 the cost minus 10% it would seem that would be a better deal | 22366|22356|2010-02-03 05:09:54|tropical_breeze52|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Hi Down In aust If I was looking for leadit would be old batteries so Id check out all the trucking companies the construction machinery companies large auto dealers (smaller Batteries) even battery retailers see if you can do some deals before the scrap dealers buy The old faulty batteries cheap. Just weork out a good way to remove the acid Cheers Haydn --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > "theboilerflue", you are right. > > Well... Unless you personally know owner or manager of the company, people do not want to get in troubles helping "stranger" (private boat builder). It is easier to get lead from recycling company. Recycling companies (at this time) buy wheel_weights/hard_lead for about 15c, soft_lead - about 45c. So price is not so bad even if company makes 25-50% profit selling lead. For ballast, it does not matter much what lead to use. > > It is easier to work with wheel weights. Sort it by size, split it between keels and measure/adjust the weight to be equal. Put bigger sizes on the bottom of the keel, smaller on top. Melt it with propane torch. Should work good enough. No need to remove steel clips - it will stay on top and seal lead. Easier to put sealing compound on top later. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Jim, I got my lead for somewhere between 40 -70 cents a pound, wheel weights are sold cheaper usually cause they're aren't all lead there some steel in there the rest was mostly old lead fitting used in house construction back in the day, ie. plumbing fittings and vent stacks. They replace them all these days with copper or plastic fittings, I called around to all the roofing companies in town to see if I could buy it from them at slightly more than the scrap yard would but had no success, for some reason they seemed to have no idea why I would be looking for lead from them. Really it was kinda infuriating really since the roofing/decking companies I've worked for in the past, I know did save all the lead/copper they took off reno jobs, after calling the 5 top roofing places in town I gave up. But I may be worth a shot. I'm not sure but I imagine if you're melting your own ingots any other metals that are put in with the lead would just float to the top, depending on their density/melting point of course. You're looking for weight not strength. > > let's see antimony, Density: 6.697 g/cc > > lead Density: 11.35 g/cc > > I imagine that would seperate in a melting pot. > > the bucket of wheel weights I bought at the scrap yard was I believe half scrap lead price - whatever they were charging at the time so that seemed like a good deal since they'd be more than half lead than steel and antimony. > > > > so if hard lead is 1/3 the cost minus 10% it would seem that would be a better deal > | 22367|22356|2010-02-03 05:18:39|theboilerflue|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|I just thought that a roofing company would be more than pleased to have someone come by and pick up all there scrap lead AND pay slightly MORE for it than if they had taken it to the scrap yard themselves - apparently not though! they're hardly "helping me out" that would be them giving the lead to me. If you could get enough wheel weight for 15 cents a pound that would be a great deal. I wouldn't try and melt down wheel weights into the keels I buckled one of my keels a little just melting down the ingots a bit you'd be better off making a melting pot and casting the ingots first, preferably into something close to the shape of the keels, In order to have all the steel float to the top you'd need a whole pool of molten lead which I think would throw off too much heat have a look at those great videos Doug made http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm#Wood_Burning_Lead_Smelter either that or pour directly into the keels from the pot. And I welded a steel cap on over top of the lead, it seemed stronger and cheaper than some sort of pour in mix and easier to sand blast the keels later. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > "theboilerflue", you are right. > > Well... Unless you personally know owner or manager of the company, people do not want to get in troubles helping "stranger" (private boat builder). It is easier to get lead from recycling company. Recycling companies (at this time) buy wheel_weights/hard_lead for about 15c, soft_lead - about 45c. So price is not so bad even if company makes 25-50% profit selling lead. For ballast, it does not matter much what lead to use. > > It is easier to work with wheel weights. Sort it by size, split it between keels and measure/adjust the weight to be equal. Put bigger sizes on the bottom of the keel, smaller on top. Melt it with propane torch. Should work good enough. No need to remove steel clips - it will stay on top and seal lead. Easier to put sealing compound on top later. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Jim, I got my lead for somewhere between 40 -70 cents a pound, wheel weights are sold cheaper usually cause they're aren't all lead there some steel in there the rest was mostly old lead fitting used in house construction back in the day, ie. plumbing fittings and vent stacks. They replace them all these days with copper or plastic fittings, I called around to all the roofing companies in town to see if I could buy it from them at slightly more than the scrap yard would but had no success, for some reason they seemed to have no idea why I would be looking for lead from them. Really it was kinda infuriating really since the roofing/decking companies I've worked for in the past, I know did save all the lead/copper they took off reno jobs, after calling the 5 top roofing places in town I gave up. But I may be worth a shot. I'm not sure but I imagine if you're melting your own ingots any other metals that are put in with the lead would just float to the top, depending on their density/melting point of course. You're looking for weight not strength. > > let's see antimony, Density: 6.697 g/cc > > lead Density: 11.35 g/cc > > I imagine that would seperate in a melting pot. > > the bucket of wheel weights I bought at the scrap yard was I believe half scrap lead price - whatever they were charging at the time so that seemed like a good deal since they'd be more than half lead than steel and antimony. > > > > so if hard lead is 1/3 the cost minus 10% it would seem that would be a better deal > | 22368|22356|2010-02-03 05:18:39|theboilerflue|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid | 22369|22356|2010-02-03 05:24:28|theboilerflue|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|I thought about that when I was melting down my lead, in fact I melted it next to a couple pallets full of old batteries, but I figured one would only get about 10-20 pounds of lead (if that) per battery and at least a litre or two of acid, then what? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid > | 22370|22356|2010-02-03 06:35:18|kingsknight4life|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|If I were doing it again, I'd try and buy an old boat and use the keel from that. Well I actually did that the first time (thanks Mickey) and i also used scrap lead and tire weights. Tire weights suck!! Don't melt them inside your boat as they are not pure lead and give off all kinds of black smoke, from rubber, oil and dirt mixed in with them. The steel clips will float to the top and can be skimmed off but I would melt them out side first into ingots or how Brent instructs in his book. Rowland| 22372|22356|2010-02-03 08:54:49|Carl Anderson|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|If anyone tries doing the "old boat keel" idea I wish them better luck than Alex had. Make sure that you have a boat with a bolt-on keel (exposed) and not one that is contained inside the fiberglass hull/keel structure. Alex got one that way, which according to the old manufacturer was lead, but found that it was a mix of concrete and who knows what else! This only discovered after running the chainsaw to cut it open (not to mention a wasted trip to the lower mainland with a large truck). Carl sv-mom.com kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > If I were doing it again, I'd try and buy an old boat and use the keel > from that. Well I actually did that the first time (thanks Mickey) and i > also used scrap lead and tire weights. Tire weights suck!! Don't melt > them inside your boat as they are not pure lead and give off all kinds > of black smoke, from rubber, oil and dirt mixed in with them. The steel > clips will float to the top and can be skimmed off but I would melt them > out side first into ingots or how Brent instructs in his book. > Rowland | 22373|22373|2010-02-03 09:33:44|martin|Lead Ballast Search|Hi All; I managed to get over half of the lead required for Prairie Maid from a major hospital's nucular medicine department. They had over a couple thousand pounds of lead in blocks, sheet, and hundreds of containers that resembled jars. All very pure lead. At that time they were very happy to just give it to me for free just to get it out of their way. Might be worth inquiring about. Like they say timming is everything when it comes to good scrounging!. Martin...| 22374|22327|2010-02-03 10:06:39|Russell Smith|Re: interior of MOM|Yes Carl, I am certainly interested in viewing the photos of the interior installation. Also Carl, I was told that you did extensive research regarding standing and running rigging on MOM, with the results being very impresive. I would like to bend your ear on these issues as well if you would like to share.   Russell  --- On Tue, 2/2/10, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: [origamiboats] interior of MOM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, February 2, 2010, 5:13 PM   We have added a large (over 350 pictures) PowerPoint presentation showing the complete building of the interior of MOM for those who might be interested. Carl sv-mom.com __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22375|22356|2010-02-03 11:38:33|Wally Paine|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|With respect to a lead - antimony mixture, one dissolves in the other to a certain extent and will not therefore separate out entirely when molten. I think (and I am open to correction) that lead will dissolve up to about 12% of antimony (12% of the combined weight that is) and that solution has a melting point of about 246 deg C which is lower, of course, than either lead or antimony on their own.  Wally Paine --- On Tue, 2/2/10, theboilerflue wrote: From: theboilerflue Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 2 February, 2010, 19:18   Jim, I got my lead for somewhere between 40 -70 cents a pound, wheel weights are sold cheaper usually cause they're aren't all lead there some steel in there the rest was mostly old lead fitting used in house construction back in the day, ie. plumbing fittings and vent stacks. They replace them all these days with copper or plastic fittings, I called around to all the roofing companies in town to see if I could buy it from them at slightly more than the scrap yard would but had no success, for some reason they seemed to have no idea why I would be looking for lead from them. Really it was kinda infuriating really since the roofing/decking companies I've worked for in the past, I know did save all the lead/copper they took off reno jobs, after calling the 5 top roofing places in town I gave up. But I may be worth a shot. I'm not sure but I imagine if you're melting your own ingots any other metals that are put in with the lead would just float to the top, depending on their density/melting point of course. You're looking for weight not strength. let's see antimony, Density: 6.697 g/cc lead Density: 11.35 g/cc I imagine that would seperate in a melting pot. the bucket of wheel weights I bought at the scrap yard was I believe half scrap lead price - whatever they were charging at the time so that seemed like a good deal since they'd be more than half lead than steel and antimony. so if hard lead is 1/3 the cost minus 10% it would seem that would be a better deal --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I called several recycle companies today to find the price of of scrap lead. I was told that the price of Soft Lead is 3 times more than Hard Lead. > > Wheel weights are made from Hard Lead = less expensive. > > Soft Lead: The melting point is 621°F (327°C) > > Hard Lead(with 10% antimony and 90 lead): has melting point 486°F (252°C) > > source: http://dictionary. mechanicalengine ering.tv/ LEAD.html > > There is some information what the difference is from another source: > > Quote: > "Lead is sold as soft lead, 99.90% pure, common lead (lead that has been desilvered), 99.85% pure, and corroding lead (for paint), 99.94% pure. Hard lead is alloyed with 6%-18% antimony, which increases the strength of the lead. The addition of only 1% Sb or 3% Sn increases the strength by 50%. Hard lead is used for battery plates. Terne plate is heavy sheet steel coated with a lead-tin alloy. 75-25 and 50-50 Pb-Sn alloys are used." > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22376|22327|2010-02-03 11:54:07|Carl Anderson|Re: interior of MOM|Russell, I did the standing rigging on MOM using 3/8" 1X7 EHS galvanized wire. The eyes are all hand turned using a method that was called a "fisherman's splice" when relayed to me. Also the eyes are covered with tarred nylon service and then painted over with some very thinned out Wasser urethane tar (maybe a little ugly but hopefully adding to the corrosion resistance). I had two samples of my hand turned eyes pull tested to destruction at the local wire rope company with impressive results. The eyes really are stronger than the wire! As for the running rigging I am using New England Ropes T900 (10mm) for my halyards and Samson XLS (1/2") for my sheets. I do have some Novatech line (3/8") for the furler reef line. Can't think of anything else regarding the rigging on MOM. Carl sv-mom.com Russell Smith wrote: > > > Yes Carl, I am certainly interested in viewing the photos of the > interior installation. Also Carl, I was told that you did > extensive research regarding standing and running rigging on MOM, with > the results being very impresive. I would like to bend your ear on these > issues as well if you would like to share. > > Russell > | 22377|22356|2010-02-03 12:44:14|wild_explorer|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|The lead is in hazardous_materials/poison category. In some places you need to have some kind of license/permit to have a deal with it. Or people just do not want to get in POSSIBLE troubles for several hundreds dollars. Nobody knows what you REALLY going to do with it. ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I just thought that a roofing company would be more than pleased to have someone come by and pick up all there scrap lead AND pay slightly MORE for it than if they had taken it to the scrap yard themselves - apparently not though! they're hardly "helping me out" that would be them giving the lead to me. | 22378|22356|2010-02-03 12:59:52|wild_explorer|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Yep, in some places it is illegal to dump acid in the water or into the dirt on your own land. No mentioning battery plates needs to be cleaned from porous material (which plate's greed have). Not worth of troubles. I could get gel batteries (no liquid acid inside) for free, but weight of (shipping) battery's box 31.5x28x11.5cm is only 18.5KG (~36Lb). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid > | 22379|22356|2010-02-03 13:03:46|wild_explorer|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Somebody mentioned before you need to clean/washed old/recycle lead anyway from contaminants and dirt. Agree, melting pot is better, but more work. May be it just need to use weights and pour concrete to hold weights? This way no melting, no poisonous fumes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: Tire weights suck!! Don't melt them inside your boat as they are not pure lead and give off all kinds of black smoke, from rubber, oil and dirt mixed in with them. The steel clips will float to the top and can be skimmed off but I would melt them out side first into ingots or how Brent instructs in his book. | 22380|22373|2010-02-03 13:08:46|wild_explorer|Re: Lead Ballast Search|Last time I did quick research on the subject, I found that such Lead is "Hot" - radioactive. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. It was a big case in our area several years back, when research accelerator was closed and shield lead bricks were need to be disassembled and hauled away. After all consideration about public danger - the conclusion was it is safer to keep the structure intact. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > Hi All; I managed to get over half of the lead required for Prairie Maid from a major hospital's nucular medicine department. They had over a couple thousand pounds of lead in blocks, sheet, and hundreds of containers that resembled jars. All very pure lead. At that time they were very happy to just give it to me for free just to get it out of their way. Might be worth inquiring about. Like they say timming is everything when it comes to good scrounging!. > Martin... > | 22381|22373|2010-02-03 13:19:19|martin|Lead Ballast Search|Hi All: The first question I asked before even having a look at the lead in question was"is there any radiation from it" I was assured that there was not. My second question was why are you willing to give it to me. I was told they normally have a fellow pick it up and pay a nominal amount for it. At that time the cost of shipping it anywhere was higher than what he could recoup and there were no local takers anywhere till I came along. That was why they were storing it beside their loading dock in the basement of the hospital. All the lead storage containers normally hold a tiny speck of material that is inserted into the human body for medical tests. Recycling them back for a refill is just far to expensive given their weight. Martin.| 22382|22356|2010-02-03 13:28:42|Gord Schnell|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Thought I'd throw my "two cents" in re: Ballast....when I poured the 7000 ibs. of ballast for my 40', I purchased ingots (50 lbs each). A larger beer keg (SS), with the top cut off, served as the melting pot. A 3" gate valve and about 12" of 3" dia. pipe near the bottom was the spigot. It stood on an angle iron stand with 18" legs. 2 tiger torches and a 100 lb. bottle of propane provided the heat. A large extraction fan and 10" dia hose vacuumed the fumes away. Note: Lead fumes are deadly!! I took about 8 hours to melt all 7000 lbs. and another 36 hrs. to fully cool. I poured 2 or 3 gallons of epoxy paint over top and welded in a plate to seal. Above the ballast is my forward diesel tank. The aft portion of the keel extends to the keel bottom plate and provides the aft diesel tank. Gord On 3-Feb-10, at 2:16 AM, theboilerflue wrote: > I just thought that a roofing company would be more than pleased to > have someone come by and pick up all there scrap lead AND pay > slightly MORE for it than if they had taken it to the scrap yard > themselves - apparently not though! they're hardly "helping me out" > that would be them giving the lead to me. If you could get enough > wheel weight for 15 cents a pound that would be a great deal. > > I wouldn't try and melt down wheel weights into the keels I buckled > one of my keels a little just melting down the ingots a bit you'd be > better off making a melting pot and casting the ingots first, > preferably into something close to the shape of the keels, In order > to have all the steel float to the top you'd need a whole pool of > molten lead which I think would throw off too much heat have a look > at those great videos Doug madehttp://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm#Wood_Burning_Lead_Smelter > either that or pour directly into the keels from the pot. And I > welded a steel cap on over top of the lead, it seemed stronger and > cheaper than some sort of pour in mix and easier to sand blast the > keels later. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > > > "theboilerflue", you are right. > > > > Well... Unless you personally know owner or manager of the > company, people do not want to get in troubles helping > "stranger" (private boat builder). It is easier to get lead from > recycling company. Recycling companies (at this time) buy > wheel_weights/hard_lead for about 15c, soft_lead - about 45c. So > price is not so bad even if company makes 25-50% profit selling > lead. For ballast, it does not matter much what lead to use. > > > > It is easier to work with wheel weights. Sort it by size, split it > between keels and measure/adjust the weight to be equal. Put bigger > sizes on the bottom of the keel, smaller on top. Melt it with > propane torch. Should work good enough. No need to remove steel > clips - it will stay on top and seal lead. Easier to put sealing > compound on top later. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > wrote: > > > > > > Jim, I got my lead for somewhere between 40 -70 cents a pound, > wheel weights are sold cheaper usually cause they're aren't all lead > there some steel in there the rest was mostly old lead fitting used > in house construction back in the day, ie. plumbing fittings and > vent stacks. They replace them all these days with copper or plastic > fittings, I called around to all the roofing companies in town to > see if I could buy it from them at slightly more than the scrap yard > would but had no success, for some reason they seemed to have no > idea why I would be looking for lead from them. Really it was kinda > infuriating really since the roofing/decking companies I've worked > for in the past, I know did save all the lead/copper they took off > reno jobs, after calling the 5 top roofing places in town I gave up. > But I may be worth a shot. I'm not sure but I imagine if you're > melting your own ingots any other metals that are put in with the > lead would just float to the top, depending on their > > let's see > antimony, Density: 6.697 g/cc > > > lead Density: 11.35 g/cc > > > I imagine that would seperate in a melting pot. > > > the bucket of wheel weights I bought at the scrap yard was I > believe half scrap lead price - whatever they were charging at the > time so that seemed like a good deal since they'd be more than half > lead than steel and antimony. > > > > > > so if hard lead is 1/3 the cost minus 10% it would seem that > would be a better deal > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22383|22383|2010-02-03 13:41:40|Gord Schnell|Lead ballast|If anyone is interested in a lead melting pot, I still have the one I used for my 40'. Gord| 22384|22356|2010-02-03 14:10:59|Paul Wilson|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|I used lead wheel weights when I built my boat. I melted it in a tub on a stand outside the boat and used a pipe and a gate valve to gravity flow it into the keel through an opening. As the lead flows in to the keel it almost instantly solidifies. A tiger torch kept the lead molten in the pipe. The steel clips and dirt floated to the top of the tub and were easily skinned off with a shovel. I never noticed any antimony coming out of the lead. Using a tub, you can do it in several pours and keep the volume of lead and heat down to a more manageable size. I wouldn't try melting it in the keel. It takes a great deal of heat and I would worry about the fumes and excess heat inside the hull. I know of one boat that tried to do the "skimming" down in the keel and they couldn't get the lead hot enough and ended up with a dirty mess of lead. It's surprising how much volume the clips take up so they definitely need to be removed. Spending so much time in a hull with molten lead would not be a good working environment, to say the least. When melting lead, it's good to keep the molten lead just liquid but not so hot that it is gassing off too much. Wear a forced air mask. Wash your hands after working with it or you will be ingesting it later. Cheers, Paul > > | 22385|22373|2010-02-03 15:16:50|martin|Lead Ballast Search|HI All; When placing Prairie Maids ballast I was lucky that many of the pieces I had to work with would dry stack tight together. I then made a pot out of a chunk of the six inch leading pipe for the keel Added some chain and a good sized handle for tipping and a large steel piece over the area so that the pot could be suspended and heated with a tiger torch and my cutting torch. I could then pour in liquid lead around any areas that needed it. Breathing air came from my scuba tank and an extra long regulator hose that I added. A large box fan supplied ventalation durring the process. I think everyone is in agreement that no matter your system or choice for working with that much molten lead you can not be too careful in avoiding the inhaling of those toxic fumes. Martin.| 22386|22373|2010-02-03 18:05:23|wild_explorer|Re: Lead Ballast Search|It falls into Bio-hazard group (same as syringes, needles, etc). Not a big deal, if you know how properly handle it. Just do it yourself - do not allow anybody else to touch it (for legal reasons). How small were such things? If small, might be even better than lead shots. It is a good idea to check big hospitals... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > All the lead storage containers normally hold a tiny speck of material that is inserted into the human body for medical tests. Recycling them back for a refill is just far to expensive given their weight. > Martin. > | 22387|22356|2010-02-03 19:13:35|brentswain38|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|The weight of wheel weights are 20 % of the total , so just do a 20% overkill on the weight of your wheel weights. They all float to the top, where they can easily be skimmed off.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I used lead wheel weights when I built my boat. I melted it in a tub > on a stand outside the boat and used a pipe and a gate valve to gravity > flow it into the keel through an opening. As the lead flows in to the > keel it almost instantly solidifies. A tiger torch kept the lead molten > in the pipe. The steel clips and dirt floated to the top of the tub and > were easily skinned off with a shovel. I never noticed any antimony > coming out of the lead. Using a tub, you can do it in several pours > and keep the volume of lead and heat down to a more manageable size. I > wouldn't try melting it in the keel. It takes a great deal of heat and > I would worry about the fumes and excess heat inside the hull. I know > of one boat that tried to do the "skimming" down in the keel and they > couldn't get the lead hot enough and ended up with a dirty mess of > lead. It's surprising how much volume the clips take up so they > definitely need to be removed. Spending so much time in a hull with > molten lead would not be a good working environment, to say the least. > When melting lead, it's good to keep the molten lead just liquid but not > so hot that it is gassing off too much. Wear a forced air mask. Wash > your hands after working with it or you will be ingesting it later. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > | 22388|22356|2010-02-03 19:35:34|brentswain38|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Battery lead doesn't melt well , just turns to powder. Tried that, not so good. Don't waste your time on batteries. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I thought about that when I was melting down my lead, in fact I melted it next to a couple pallets full of old batteries, but I figured one would only get about 10-20 pounds of lead (if that) per battery and at least a litre or two of acid, then what? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid > > > | 22389|22356|2010-02-04 03:55:50|tropical_breeze52|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|My Ballast Is from wheel weights I have been around a few tyre places locally and set up a slabs of beer arrangements . What I had in mind was once I have a bit there melt it down into cast ion fry pan ingots and skim the top off and when it cools stack it away till Im ready for it I have very accurate scales that to up to 2 tonnes so I was going to work out my balast that way also thought batteries might be ok but wont be doing it now once I have a colection of ingots I was going to weigh them evenly for both side via the ingots then when Im ready melt them down . out side and pour into the keels never weld the keels in later I have good stuff to use has far as lifing when I need it. Haydn --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Battery lead doesn't melt well , just turns to powder. Tried that, not so good. Don't waste your time on batteries. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > I thought about that when I was melting down my lead, in fact I melted it next to a couple pallets full of old batteries, but I figured one would only get about 10-20 pounds of lead (if that) per battery and at least a litre or two of acid, then what? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid > > > > > > | 22390|22356|2010-02-04 04:04:16|theboilerflue|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|I just used a bathroom scale to weigh my ingots, weighed them and separated it into two even pallets then lift each pallet up with a tractor and had a couple of friends help me carry them inside the boat. I can't remember how much I bought but it worked out to 4850 lbs. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > My Ballast > Is from wheel weights I have been around a few tyre places locally and set up a slabs of beer arrangements . What I had in mind was once I have a bit there melt it down into cast ion fry pan ingots and skim the top off and when it cools stack it away till Im ready for it I have very accurate scales that to up to 2 tonnes so I was going to work out my balast that way also thought batteries might be ok but wont be doing it now > once I have a colection of ingots I was going to weigh them evenly for both side via the ingots then when Im ready melt them down . out side and pour into the keels never weld the keels in later I have good stuff to use has far as lifing when I need it. > Haydn > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Battery lead doesn't melt well , just turns to powder. Tried that, not so good. Don't waste your time on batteries. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > I thought about that when I was melting down my lead, in fact I melted it next to a couple pallets full of old batteries, but I figured one would only get about 10-20 pounds of lead (if that) per battery and at least a litre or two of acid, then what? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid > > > > > > > > > > | 22391|22356|2010-02-04 04:47:22|tropical_breeze52|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Im not sure if this would work but If I can find better lead I was thinking on the line I could mark there ingots and melt them first into the keels then the wheel weights to make up the balance putting the denser lead towards the bottom of the keel does this make an sense Maybe I should wait till Brents book gets here Haydn --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I just used a bathroom scale to weigh my ingots, weighed them and separated it into two even pallets then lift each pallet up with a tractor and had a couple of friends help me carry them inside the boat. I can't remember how much I bought but it worked out to 4850 lbs. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > My Ballast > > Is from wheel weights I have been around a few tyre places locally and set up a slabs of beer arrangements . What I had in mind was once I have a bit there melt it down into cast ion fry pan ingots and skim the top off and when it cools stack it away till Im ready for it I have very accurate scales that to up to 2 tonnes so I was going to work out my balast that way also thought batteries might be ok but wont be doing it now > > once I have a colection of ingots I was going to weigh them evenly for both side via the ingots then when Im ready melt them down . out side and pour into the keels never weld the keels in later I have good stuff to use has far as lifing when I need it. > > Haydn > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > Battery lead doesn't melt well , just turns to powder. Tried that, not so good. Don't waste your time on batteries. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > I thought about that when I was melting down my lead, in fact I melted it next to a couple pallets full of old batteries, but I figured one would only get about 10-20 pounds of lead (if that) per battery and at least a litre or two of acid, then what? > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22392|22356|2010-02-04 08:46:12|Carl Anderson|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Get your lead together BEFORE you put the second keel on! Then after the first keel is welded on & you still have one to go you move all the lead into the boat through the opening for the second keel NOT up & over the top! This little labor & time saving item is brought to you by Evan Shaler: (Remember him? the boat builder that Brent accuses of wasting your time & effort??) But go ahead & get everything all tacked together and haul 5000 pounds of lead "over the top" if you want. Carl sv-mom.com theboilerflue wrote: > > > I just used a bathroom scale to weigh my ingots, weighed them and > separated it into two even pallets then lift each pallet up with a > tractor and had a couple of friends help me carry them inside the boat. > I can't remember how much I bought but it worked out to 4850 lbs. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "tropical_breeze52" > wrote: > > > > My Ballast > > Is from wheel weights I have been around a few tyre places locally > and set up a slabs of beer arrangements . What I had in mind was once I > have a bit there melt it down into cast ion fry pan ingots and skim the > top off and when it cools stack it away till Im ready for it I have very > accurate scales that to up to 2 tonnes so I was going to work out my > balast that way also thought batteries might be ok but wont be doing it now > > once I have a colection of ingots I was going to weigh them evenly > for both side via the ingots then when Im ready melt them down . out > side and pour into the keels never weld the keels in later I have good > stuff to use has far as lifing when I need it. > > Haydn > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > Battery lead doesn't melt well , just turns to powder. Tried that, > not so good. Don't waste your time on batteries. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > I thought about that when I was melting down my lead, in fact I > melted it next to a couple pallets full of old batteries, but I figured > one would only get about 10-20 pounds of lead (if that) per battery and > at least a litre or two of acid, then what? > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "tropical_breeze52" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22393|22373|2010-02-04 10:21:28|Norm Moore|Re: Lead Ballast Search|You're wrong. Small lead containers are routinely used to ship radioactive isotopes for nuclear medicine. They never directly contact the isotopes, (which have very short half lives - we're talking days), they just shield them so they're not HOT. Back in the 80-90's they just shipped them one way, but most of the dealers now have a contract that requires shipping the containers back. I already checked this one out. There still may be a few of these laying around radiology as door stops, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. There is also lead shielding used in the walls and doors of many radiological departments, if a hospital is being demolished near you. Norm Moore 559-645-5314 ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 10:07:17 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead Ballast Search Last time I did quick research on the subject, I found that such Lead is "Hot" - radioactive. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. It was a big case in our area several years back, when research accelerator was closed and shield lead bricks were need to be disassembled and hauled away. After all consideration about public danger - the conclusion was it is safer to keep the structure intact. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "martin" wrote: > > Hi All; I managed to get over half of the lead required for Prairie Maid from a major hospital's nucular medicine department. They had over a couple thousand pounds of lead in blocks, sheet, and hundreds of containers that resembled jars. All very pure lead. At that time they were very happy to just give it to me for free just to get it out of their way. Might be worth inquiring about. Like they say timming is everything when it comes to good scrounging!. > Martin... > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22394|22356|2010-02-04 12:23:23|James Pronk|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|I was going to weld up a mold the shape of the base of the keel and about 3" deep. I would divide this into three or four sections. I would also make some extra middle sections. Stack them in the keel then poor the rest around the gaps. James __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22395|22356|2010-02-04 13:09:03|brentswain38|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|I told Evan that trick ( as with everything else he knows about building my boats). The same trick works for your tank top. If you have no good reason to put the keel on quickly , leaving the second keel off saves a lot of effort. With the 31 I leave the two little triangle pieces in the aft hull centreline out as long as possible, for the same reason. I remember watching some guys install bow thrusters etc on a huge aluminium fishboat. They started by cutting a 4 by 4 foot hole in the side, set a flight of stairs up to the opening and used it for access for weeks before welding it up again when the job was done.Saved them a huge amount of time and effort. The wonders of metal boatbuilding! Doesn't work so well for fibreglass boats . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Get your lead together BEFORE you put the second keel on! > Then after the first keel is welded on & you still have one to go you > move all the lead into the boat through the opening for the second keel > NOT up & over the top! > > This little labor & time saving item is brought to you by Evan Shaler: > (Remember him? the boat builder that Brent accuses of wasting your time > & effort??) > > But go ahead & get everything all tacked together and haul 5000 pounds > of lead "over the top" if you want. > > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > I just used a bathroom scale to weigh my ingots, weighed them and > > separated it into two even pallets then lift each pallet up with a > > tractor and had a couple of friends help me carry them inside the boat. > > I can't remember how much I bought but it worked out to 4850 lbs. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "tropical_breeze52" > > wrote: > > > > > > My Ballast > > > Is from wheel weights I have been around a few tyre places locally > > and set up a slabs of beer arrangements . What I had in mind was once I > > have a bit there melt it down into cast ion fry pan ingots and skim the > > top off and when it cools stack it away till Im ready for it I have very > > accurate scales that to up to 2 tonnes so I was going to work out my > > balast that way also thought batteries might be ok but wont be doing it now > > > once I have a colection of ingots I was going to weigh them evenly > > for both side via the ingots then when Im ready melt them down . out > > side and pour into the keels never weld the keels in later I have good > > stuff to use has far as lifing when I need it. > > > Haydn > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Battery lead doesn't melt well , just turns to powder. Tried that, > > not so good. Don't waste your time on batteries. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I thought about that when I was melting down my lead, in fact I > > melted it next to a couple pallets full of old batteries, but I figured > > one would only get about 10-20 pounds of lead (if that) per battery and > > at least a litre or two of acid, then what? > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "tropical_breeze52" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22396|22356|2010-02-04 13:12:38|brentswain38|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Take your cordless drill along and drill into it to see what kind of shavings come out, and how far you can drill into it before hitting steel etc. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > If anyone tries doing the "old boat keel" idea I wish them better luck > than Alex had. Make sure that you have a boat with a bolt-on keel > (exposed) and not one that is contained inside the fiberglass hull/keel > structure. > > Alex got one that way, which according to the old manufacturer was lead, > but found that it was a mix of concrete and who knows what else! This > only discovered after running the chainsaw to cut it open (not to > mention a wasted trip to the lower mainland with a large truck). > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > > > > If I were doing it again, I'd try and buy an old boat and use the keel > > from that. Well I actually did that the first time (thanks Mickey) and i > > also used scrap lead and tire weights. Tire weights suck!! Don't melt > > them inside your boat as they are not pure lead and give off all kinds > > of black smoke, from rubber, oil and dirt mixed in with them. The steel > > clips will float to the top and can be skimmed off but I would melt them > > out side first into ingots or how Brent instructs in his book. > > Rowland > | 22397|22356|2010-02-04 13:16:50|brentswain38|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|One couple I worked for called the scrapyard and asked what they charged for lead. They said 45 cents a pound. Then the other called and asked what they pay for lead. They said 10 cents a pound. So they offered in the buy and sell and in wheel balancing shops 12 cents a pound and got all they wanted. If you are on central Vancouver Island and have to deal with the monopoly here, you will get ripped off. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > "theboilerflue", you are right. > > Well... Unless you personally know owner or manager of the company, people do not want to get in troubles helping "stranger" (private boat builder). It is easier to get lead from recycling company. Recycling companies (at this time) buy wheel_weights/hard_lead for about 15c, soft_lead - about 45c. So price is not so bad even if company makes 25-50% profit selling lead. For ballast, it does not matter much what lead to use. > > It is easier to work with wheel weights. Sort it by size, split it between keels and measure/adjust the weight to be equal. Put bigger sizes on the bottom of the keel, smaller on top. Melt it with propane torch. Should work good enough. No need to remove steel clips - it will stay on top and seal lead. Easier to put sealing compound on top later. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Jim, I got my lead for somewhere between 40 -70 cents a pound, wheel weights are sold cheaper usually cause they're aren't all lead there some steel in there the rest was mostly old lead fitting used in house construction back in the day, ie. plumbing fittings and vent stacks. They replace them all these days with copper or plastic fittings, I called around to all the roofing companies in town to see if I could buy it from them at slightly more than the scrap yard would but had no success, for some reason they seemed to have no idea why I would be looking for lead from them. Really it was kinda infuriating really since the roofing/decking companies I've worked for in the past, I know did save all the lead/copper they took off reno jobs, after calling the 5 top roofing places in town I gave up. But I may be worth a shot. I'm not sure but I imagine if you're melting your own ingots any other metals that are put in with the lead would just float to the top, depending on their density/melting point of course. You're looking for weight not strength. > > let's see antimony, Density: 6.697 g/cc > > lead Density: 11.35 g/cc > > I imagine that would seperate in a melting pot. > > the bucket of wheel weights I bought at the scrap yard was I believe half scrap lead price - whatever they were charging at the time so that seemed like a good deal since they'd be more than half lead than steel and antimony. > > > > so if hard lead is 1/3 the cost minus 10% it would seem that would be a better deal > | 22398|22356|2010-02-04 13:23:14|brentswain38|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|By the time I could afford the second half of my ballast, the boat had been painted and foamed, so that is what I did. It worked out well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > I was going to weld up a mold the shape of the base of the keel and about 3" deep. I would divide this into three or four sections. I would also make some extra middle sections. Stack them in the keel then poor the rest around the gaps. > James > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22399|22356|2010-02-04 14:44:15|brentswain38|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|I don't see Evan posting any info here. If he did, it would quickly become obvious he knows absolutely nothing about cruising,or cruising boats , or why things are done the way they are, as he has zero experience. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I told Evan that trick ( as with everything else he knows about building my boats). The same trick works for your tank top. > If you have no good reason to put the keel on quickly , leaving the second keel off saves a lot of effort. With the 31 I leave the two little triangle pieces in the aft hull centreline out as long as possible, for the same reason. > I remember watching some guys install bow thrusters etc on a huge aluminium fishboat. They started by cutting a 4 by 4 foot hole in the side, set a flight of stairs up to the opening and used it for access for weeks before welding it up again when the job was done.Saved them a huge amount of time and effort. The wonders of metal boatbuilding! Doesn't work so well for fibreglass boats . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Get your lead together BEFORE you put the second keel on! > > Then after the first keel is welded on & you still have one to go you > > move all the lead into the boat through the opening for the second keel > > NOT up & over the top! > > > > This little labor & time saving item is brought to you by Evan Shaler: > > (Remember him? the boat builder that Brent accuses of wasting your time > > & effort??) > > > > But go ahead & get everything all tacked together and haul 5000 pounds > > of lead "over the top" if you want. > > > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > > I just used a bathroom scale to weigh my ingots, weighed them and > > > separated it into two even pallets then lift each pallet up with a > > > tractor and had a couple of friends help me carry them inside the boat. > > > I can't remember how much I bought but it worked out to 4850 lbs. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "tropical_breeze52" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > My Ballast > > > > Is from wheel weights I have been around a few tyre places locally > > > and set up a slabs of beer arrangements . What I had in mind was once I > > > have a bit there melt it down into cast ion fry pan ingots and skim the > > > top off and when it cools stack it away till Im ready for it I have very > > > accurate scales that to up to 2 tonnes so I was going to work out my > > > balast that way also thought batteries might be ok but wont be doing it now > > > > once I have a colection of ingots I was going to weigh them evenly > > > for both side via the ingots then when Im ready melt them down . out > > > side and pour into the keels never weld the keels in later I have good > > > stuff to use has far as lifing when I need it. > > > > Haydn > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Battery lead doesn't melt well , just turns to powder. Tried that, > > > not so good. Don't waste your time on batteries. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought about that when I was melting down my lead, in fact I > > > melted it next to a couple pallets full of old batteries, but I figured > > > one would only get about 10-20 pounds of lead (if that) per battery and > > > at least a litre or two of acid, then what? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "tropical_breeze52" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22400|22356|2010-02-04 17:48:01|kingsknight4life|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I just used a bathroom scale to weigh my ingots, weighed them and separated it into two even pallets then lift each pallet up with a tractor and had a couple of friends help me carry them inside the boat. I can't remember how much I bought but it worked out to 4850 lbs. > LOL I did it the high tech way too, Haidan. A cheapo bathroom scale from Walmart. Weighed everything up and made 2 equal piles. Unfortunately for me I didn't have a tractor but I did have BOTh keels welded on already, so I humped it up a flight of stairs and back down into the hull. :( I bought my lead (well most of it) in the form of a keel, from Mickey. The rest I got from scrap yards and some wheel weights from Bev's work place. The lead from the keel was very clean and most of it I just placed in the keels and melted lead around it with a tiger torch. I must've moved that lead at least 2 or 3 times. Once from Mickey's yard, we eventually found a friend with a picker truck. Then I cut the keel and hand bombed it into a rental truck (1/2 ton no less ) and ferried it to the Island. I thought for sure we were going to blow a tire or worse. Then I unloaded it at Yellowpoint at some jerks place.(names omitted to protect the guiltuy) :) Then moved it again to Duncan and finally into the boat. Who neeeds a gym when you're building a boat? lol Rowland| 22401|22356|2010-02-04 22:02:46|arctichusky44|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Brent, Stop slagging Evan every chance you get, it makes you look bad, not Evan . Anyone I have spoke with was very pleased to have him build their boat,saying that he is a better welder than you, listens to their ideas and often came up with better ways of carrying them out. it was a pleasure to not have ideas RAMMED down their throats, Believe it or not, many new builders have read and researched a lot and your experience is just one mans ideas.Just because you have an axe to grind, don't do it here please. Frankly, after spending a lifetime of working on the worlds oceans in every kind of vessel plus sailing a hundred thousand ofshore miles in my own boat, I find your experience quite limited to one small speck. I think that instead of "cruising" 11 months a year, you spend most of your time in the public libraries ranting on the various forums. Go real cruising dude!Get some real experience! Frank --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I don't see Evan posting any info here. If he did, it would quickly become obvious he knows absolutely nothing about cruising,or cruising boats , or why things are done the way they are, as he has zero experience. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I told Evan that trick ( as with everything else he knows about building my boats). The same trick works for your tank top. > > If you have no good reason to put the keel on quickly , leaving the second keel off saves a lot of effort. With the 31 I leave the two little triangle pieces in the aft hull centreline out as long as possible, for the same reason. > > I remember watching some guys install bow thrusters etc on a huge aluminium fishboat. They started by cutting a 4 by 4 foot hole in the side, set a flight of stairs up to the opening and used it for access for weeks before welding it up again when the job was done.Saved them a huge amount of time and effort. The wonders of metal boatbuilding! Doesn't work so well for fibreglass boats . > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Get your lead together BEFORE you put the second keel on! > > > Then after the first keel is welded on & you still have one to go you > > > move all the lead into the boat through the opening for the second keel > > > NOT up & over the top! > > > > > > This little labor & time saving item is brought to you by Evan Shaler: > > > (Remember him? the boat builder that Brent accuses of wasting your time > > > & effort??) > > > > > > But go ahead & get everything all tacked together and haul 5000 pounds > > > of lead "over the top" if you want. > > > > > > > > > Carl > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > > > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I just used a bathroom scale to weigh my ingots, weighed them and > > > > separated it into two even pallets then lift each pallet up with a > > > > tractor and had a couple of friends help me carry them inside the boat. > > > > I can't remember how much I bought but it worked out to 4850 lbs. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "tropical_breeze52" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My Ballast > > > > > Is from wheel weights I have been around a few tyre places locally > > > > and set up a slabs of beer arrangements . What I had in mind was once I > > > > have a bit there melt it down into cast ion fry pan ingots and skim the > > > > top off and when it cools stack it away till Im ready for it I have very > > > > accurate scales that to up to 2 tonnes so I was going to work out my > > > > balast that way also thought batteries might be ok but wont be doing it now > > > > > once I have a colection of ingots I was going to weigh them evenly > > > > for both side via the ingots then when Im ready melt them down . out > > > > side and pour into the keels never weld the keels in later I have good > > > > stuff to use has far as lifing when I need it. > > > > > Haydn > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Battery lead doesn't melt well , just turns to powder. Tried that, > > > > not so good. Don't waste your time on batteries. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought about that when I was melting down my lead, in fact I > > > > melted it next to a couple pallets full of old batteries, but I figured > > > > one would only get about 10-20 pounds of lead (if that) per battery and > > > > at least a litre or two of acid, then what? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "tropical_breeze52" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22402|22356|2010-02-04 22:19:19|theboilerflue|Lead Density Smackdown!!|Well you won't get to do it again unfortunately, so I would suggest getting a gym membership at the Lewis Centre just down the street from your boat, it's a good place for showers too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > LOL I did it the high tech way too, Haidan. A cheapo bathroom scale from Walmart. Weighed everything up and made 2 equal piles. Unfortunately for me I didn't have a tractor but I did have BOTh keels welded on already, so I humped it up a flight of stairs and back down into the hull. :( > > I bought my lead (well most of it) in the form of a keel, from Mickey. The rest I got from scrap yards and some wheel weights from Bev's work place. The lead from the keel was very clean and most of it I just placed in the keels and melted lead around it with a tiger torch. I must've moved that lead at least 2 or 3 times. Once from Mickey's yard, we eventually found a friend with a picker truck. Then I cut the keel and hand bombed it into a rental truck (1/2 ton no less ) and ferried it to the Island. I thought for sure we were going to blow a tire or worse. > > Then I unloaded it at Yellowpoint at some jerks place.(names omitted to protect the guiltuy) :) Then moved it again to Duncan and finally into the boat. Who neeeds a gym when you're building a boat? lol > Rowland > | 22403|22327|2010-02-05 00:49:41|tropical_breeze52|Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria?|Hin Again Craig Well thebest price so far for 5 mm plate has been $1150 including gst for 5mm x 2400 x 6 meters which isnt to bad but Ill keep on looking plenty of time . One steel wernt helpful at all Cheers haydn --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hi Craig > As I price steel ect Ill let you know how I go over the next few months vis versa we might be able to save a few Dollars here and there > between us > Cheers haydn > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > All noted haydn, good luck with the project. > > > > Craig > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Graig > > > BS 36 bilge keeler Graig Ive been looking for the right design been down the Pratique 35 and looked at 36 spray but wanted as bilge keeler in a single chine found the Brent Swain designs and this what Ive been searching for as Im nearing retirement wanted a no frill down to earrh boat that I can scrub her hull with out a marina crane and do the maintance on her > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Haydn > > > > > > > > Great. What size are you planning on building? I am in NW Melbourne near the Airport > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Craig > > > > > Not yet but working towards it > > > > > Haydn > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone building a BS design in the Melbourne area? > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22404|22327|2010-02-05 01:53:54|hotelechovictorkilo|Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria?|Hi Haydn Are CNC cutting files available? You could have the whole kit cut out and delivered, this would include the offcuts. Anyone have experience getting a BS design CNC cut? Craig --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hin Again Craig > Well thebest price so far for 5 mm plate has been $1150 including gst > for 5mm x 2400 x 6 meters which isnt to bad but Ill keep on looking plenty of time . One steel wernt helpful at all > Cheers haydn > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Craig > > As I price steel ect Ill let you know how I go over the next few months vis versa we might be able to save a few Dollars here and there > > between us > > Cheers haydn > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > > > > All noted haydn, good luck with the project. > > > > > > Craig > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Graig > > > > BS 36 bilge keeler Graig Ive been looking for the right design been down the Pratique 35 and looked at 36 spray but wanted as bilge keeler in a single chine found the Brent Swain designs and this what Ive been searching for as Im nearing retirement wanted a no frill down to earrh boat that I can scrub her hull with out a marina crane and do the maintance on her > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Haydn > > > > > > > > > > Great. What size are you planning on building? I am in NW Melbourne near the Airport > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Craig > > > > > > Not yet but working towards it > > > > > > Haydn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone building a BS design in the Melbourne area? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22405|22327|2010-02-05 02:29:05|tropical_breeze52|Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria?|Hi Graig , Im cutting by hand when I do it not worth the bother lazer cuting my build will be nice and slow have the fun is getting there cheers haydn --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > Hi Haydn > > Are CNC cutting files available? You could have the whole kit cut out and delivered, this would include the offcuts. > > Anyone have experience getting a BS design CNC cut? > > Craig > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hin Again Craig > > Well thebest price so far for 5 mm plate has been $1150 including gst > > for 5mm x 2400 x 6 meters which isnt to bad but Ill keep on looking plenty of time . One steel wernt helpful at all > > Cheers haydn > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Craig > > > As I price steel ect Ill let you know how I go over the next few months vis versa we might be able to save a few Dollars here and there > > > between us > > > Cheers haydn > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > All noted haydn, good luck with the project. > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Graig > > > > > BS 36 bilge keeler Graig Ive been looking for the right design been down the Pratique 35 and looked at 36 spray but wanted as bilge keeler in a single chine found the Brent Swain designs and this what Ive been searching for as Im nearing retirement wanted a no frill down to earrh boat that I can scrub her hull with out a marina crane and do the maintance on her > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Haydn > > > > > > > > > > > > Great. What size are you planning on building? I am in NW Melbourne near the Airport > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Craig > > > > > > > Not yet but working towards it > > > > > > > Haydn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone building a BS design in the Melbourne area? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22406|22327|2010-02-05 10:45:27|Aaron Williams|Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria?|Craig Read back for the last 2 months there have been several conversation regarding  C-n-C cutting. --- On Thu, 2/4/10, hotelechovictorkilo wrote: From: hotelechovictorkilo Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS In Melbourne Victoria? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 4, 2010, 9:53 PM   Hi Haydn Are CNC cutting files available? You could have the whole kit cut out and delivered, this would include the offcuts. Anyone have experience getting a BS design CNC cut? Craig --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hin Again Craig > Well thebest price so far for 5 mm plate has been $1150 including gst > for 5mm x 2400 x 6 meters which isnt to bad but Ill keep on looking plenty of time . One steel wernt helpful at all > Cheers haydn > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Craig > > As I price steel ect Ill let you know how I go over the next few months vis versa we might be able to save a few Dollars here and there > > between us > > Cheers haydn > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "hotelechovictorkil o" wrote: > > > > > > > > > All noted haydn, good luck with the project. > > > > > > Craig > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Graig > > > > BS 36 bilge keeler Graig Ive been looking for the right design been down the Pratique 35 and looked at 36 spray but wanted as bilge keeler in a single chine found the Brent Swain designs and this what Ive been searching for as Im nearing retirement wanted a no frill down to earrh boat that I can scrub her hull with out a marina crane and do the maintance on her > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "hotelechovictorkil o" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Haydn > > > > > > > > > > Great. What size are you planning on building? I am in NW Melbourne near the Airport > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Craig > > > > > > Not yet but working towards it > > > > > > Haydn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "hotelechovictorkil o" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone building a BS design in the Melbourne area? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22407|22407|2010-02-05 12:00:16|James|Hydroformed hull|The book, "Design for Welding", was published by the James F. Lincoln Arc Welding Foundation in 1948. It includes 82 papers submitted for their Awards Program. One is "The Small Sailing Yacht Adapted for Arc Welding Construction" and shows an experiment that hydroformed a pair of dinghy hulls. Keels were 3/4" pipe, skins 18 ga. steel, and false common gunwhales 3/4" pipe. After welding, the hulls looked like a partially inflated football. Hydroforming water pressure was 100 psi. Any welding distortion was "pressed out". The hulls were cut apart at the false gunwhale, a C shape welded to finish the edge, and the double-ended stern cut off and a transom fitted. The author proposed a 37' hull with a material list and cost estimates. The plastic elongation necessary was 12%, easily handled by mild steel and some aluminum alloys. I made a model of the 'Helen B. Thomas', a Boston knockabout schooner built in 1902. The deck and keel were 1/4", the hull skins 16 ga. The extra heavy deck with the keel extending up to it kept all stretching in the hull skins. Photos are here: http://picasaweb.google.com/jimrudholm/SailboatHull#| 22408|22407|2010-02-05 15:03:45|brentswain38|Re: Hydroformed hull|Man, that's ingenious and beautiful. The Aussies were building a gelignite 35 , formed with explosives, but this is far simpler and easier to experiment with . Thanks for the great post and info. House tap pressure is around 85 PSI, which could be all the pressure you need, and, being liquid and non compressible, it is perfectly safe. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James" wrote: > > The book, "Design for Welding", was published by the James F. Lincoln Arc Welding Foundation in 1948. It includes 82 papers submitted for their Awards Program. One is "The Small Sailing Yacht Adapted for Arc Welding Construction" and shows an experiment that hydroformed a pair of dinghy hulls. Keels were 3/4" pipe, skins 18 ga. steel, and false common gunwhales 3/4" pipe. After welding, the hulls looked like a partially inflated football. Hydroforming water pressure was 100 psi. Any welding distortion was "pressed out". The hulls were cut apart at the false gunwhale, a C shape welded to finish the edge, and the double-ended stern cut off and a transom fitted. The author proposed a 37' hull with a material list and cost estimates. The plastic elongation necessary was 12%, easily handled by mild steel and some aluminum alloys. > I made a model of the 'Helen B. Thomas', a Boston knockabout schooner built in 1902. The deck and keel were 1/4", the hull skins 16 ga. The extra heavy deck with the keel extending up to it kept all stretching in the hull skins. Photos are here: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/jimrudholm/SailboatHull# > | 22409|22356|2010-02-05 15:09:07|brentswain38|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|There is nothing wrong with cutting a 10 inch round hole in the hull, below the waterline so distortion is not a problem, plate and passing the lead etc thru, as well as extension cords cutting hoses stinger cable , etc, then welding it up afterwards. Leave it open as long as possible , only closing it when its painting and foaming time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Well you won't get to do it again unfortunately, so I would suggest getting a gym membership at the Lewis Centre just down the street from your boat, it's a good place for showers too. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > LOL I did it the high tech way too, Haidan. A cheapo bathroom scale from Walmart. Weighed everything up and made 2 equal piles. Unfortunately for me I didn't have a tractor but I did have BOTh keels welded on already, so I humped it up a flight of stairs and back down into the hull. :( > > > > I bought my lead (well most of it) in the form of a keel, from Mickey. The rest I got from scrap yards and some wheel weights from Bev's work place. The lead from the keel was very clean and most of it I just placed in the keels and melted lead around it with a tiger torch. I must've moved that lead at least 2 or 3 times. Once from Mickey's yard, we eventually found a friend with a picker truck. Then I cut the keel and hand bombed it into a rental truck (1/2 ton no less ) and ferried it to the Island. I thought for sure we were going to blow a tire or worse. > > > > Then I unloaded it at Yellowpoint at some jerks place.(names omitted to protect the guiltuy) :) Then moved it again to Duncan and finally into the boat. Who neeeds a gym when you're building a boat? lol > > Rowland > > > | 22410|22356|2010-02-05 15:53:25|brentswain38|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|When I see someone taking credit for what I taught them, I have to set the record straight. When I see someone with no experience redesigning my boats in ways that will cause problems, I will always warn them. When I see people heading for a more expensive and less effective way of doing things, on this or any other site, which wont work as well, and will cost far more, and I have simpler and more affordable ways of doing the same thing, I will always submit hem. I have enabled many, who could never have afforded to cruise in a good, safe, seaworthy boat, to get off the treadmill, at a price they could afford and go cruising , by offering affordable innovative solutions for their problems. Having always considered solutions to their problems public domain , I have done so for free and have asked for nothing in 'Consulting fees" even tho they have been sometimes offered. Others on this site can confirm that. The time I spend trying to solve peoples cruising challenges on the internet, I do for no financial gain to myself. For that I make no apology. When I find info or an idea that may be useful to others I post it here. Unlike some, I make no effort to monopolise it. When Evan comes up with a solution he considers it a "Trade Secret" and gets real pissed of at me every time I teach others how to build my boats, or write a book telling others how to do their own work. He hasn't lifted a finger for anyone unless there is a buck in it for him. That is why boats he builds cost far more in his wages than those built by others. I feel an obligation to warn people of scam artists . If they are happy to be scammed that is their choice, but the obligation to warn them is mine, and that of anyone else who is aware of it. My goal, when I build a boat for anyone is to get them cruising as quickly and as affordably as possible, as well as to enable them to get the maximum amount of knowledge out of the project to enable them to do more of their own work in the future.. Evans is to squeeze as much money out of the client as possible, keep them in the dark as much as possible, so they will have to hire him to do as much as possible, . People have the right to know that. If you simply want to throw money at a boat from a distance, pay someone else to do all the running around , and not get your hands dirty, Evan is your man. Don't expect it to come cheap tho.If you don't mind getting your own hands dirty and learning a bit about metal work, and enjoy doing a bit of your own work on a project, he is the last person you want involved. Evan said it all when he says " Brent doesn't Charge enough." To me, enough is defined as enough to cover my minimal expenses. Any more is irrelevant. For a car driving ,land dweller like Evan, no amount is enough. I've single handed across the Pacific nine times and done 9 trips to the Charlottes and back, as well as cruised 11 months a year for the last 34 years . You say that's not experience? Bullshit. You say that is less important than spending ones time in a shack in Nanaimo, without a boat in the water, without having ever sailed more than ten miles from home port on your own boat? Bullshit. It sometimes takes a bit more experience to realise the advantages of innovations I have made, which Evan has resisted. Thus, what people think of his changes, before they head offshore has little relevance. ( Like his boats with no ventilation). It takes the experience of taking a removeable tank out of the bilge after many years of inaccessible corrosion under it to realise the benefits of a built in tank, etc etc. Until then, only tidiness counts. It takes a collision with a rock driving your twin keels into the hull at their trailing edges to realise the importance of more structural strength there. Until then those flimsey flatbars look so much tidier and far more "Professional." Some have looked at the welds on my boat and said "Pretty rough. I'd rather hire Evan." Evan did most of the welding on my hull , something he will never tell you. I let him do it to gather experience and pay for plans, to save himself some cash, which would have otherwise gone into my pocket.. I don't do the welding on my boats. I encourage the owner to teach himself to do his own welding or hire student, who will work for far less than I do, to save himself money, which would other wise go into my pocket. Evan's attitude is the exact opposite.He gets pissed of when an experienced welder does his own welding. Thanks for the invitation to clear up these issues. Much appreciated . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "arctichusky44" wrote: > > Brent, Stop slagging Evan every chance you get, it makes you look bad, not Evan . Anyone I have spoke with was very pleased to have him build their boat,saying that he is a better welder than you, listens to their ideas and often came up with better ways of carrying them out. it was a pleasure to not have ideas RAMMED down their throats, Believe it or not, many new builders have read and researched a lot and your experience is just one mans ideas.Just because you have an axe to grind, don't do it here please. Frankly, after spending a lifetime of working on the worlds oceans in every kind of vessel plus sailing a hundred thousand ofshore miles in my own boat, I find your experience quite limited to one small speck. I think that instead of "cruising" 11 months a year, you spend most of your time in the public libraries ranting on the various forums. Go real cruising dude!Get some real experience! Frank > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I don't see Evan posting any info here. If he did, it would quickly become obvious he knows absolutely nothing about cruising,or cruising boats , or why things are done the way they are, as he has zero experience. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I told Evan that trick ( as with everything else he knows about building my boats). The same trick works for your tank top. > > > If you have no good reason to put the keel on quickly , leaving the second keel off saves a lot of effort. With the 31 I leave the two little triangle pieces in the aft hull centreline out as long as possible, for the same reason. > > > I remember watching some guys install bow thrusters etc on a huge aluminium fishboat. They started by cutting a 4 by 4 foot hole in the side, set a flight of stairs up to the opening and used it for access for weeks before welding it up again when the job was done.Saved them a huge amount of time and effort. The wonders of metal boatbuilding! Doesn't work so well for fibreglass boats . > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > > > Get your lead together BEFORE you put the second keel on! > > > > Then after the first keel is welded on & you still have one to go you > > > > move all the lead into the boat through the opening for the second keel > > > > NOT up & over the top! > > > > > > > > This little labor & time saving item is brought to you by Evan Shaler: > > > > (Remember him? the boat builder that Brent accuses of wasting your time > > > > & effort??) > > > > > > > > But go ahead & get everything all tacked together and haul 5000 pounds > > > > of lead "over the top" if you want. > > > > > > > > > > > > Carl > > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just used a bathroom scale to weigh my ingots, weighed them and > > > > > separated it into two even pallets then lift each pallet up with a > > > > > tractor and had a couple of friends help me carry them inside the boat. > > > > > I can't remember how much I bought but it worked out to 4850 lbs. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , "tropical_breeze52" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > My Ballast > > > > > > Is from wheel weights I have been around a few tyre places locally > > > > > and set up a slabs of beer arrangements . What I had in mind was once I > > > > > have a bit there melt it down into cast ion fry pan ingots and skim the > > > > > top off and when it cools stack it away till Im ready for it I have very > > > > > accurate scales that to up to 2 tonnes so I was going to work out my > > > > > balast that way also thought batteries might be ok but wont be doing it now > > > > > > once I have a colection of ingots I was going to weigh them evenly > > > > > for both side via the ingots then when Im ready melt them down . out > > > > > side and pour into the keels never weld the keels in later I have good > > > > > stuff to use has far as lifing when I need it. > > > > > > Haydn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Battery lead doesn't melt well , just turns to powder. Tried that, > > > > > not so good. Don't waste your time on batteries. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought about that when I was melting down my lead, in fact I > > > > > melted it next to a couple pallets full of old batteries, but I figured > > > > > one would only get about 10-20 pounds of lead (if that) per battery and > > > > > at least a litre or two of acid, then what? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what would one do with the gallons and gallons of toxic acid? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , "tropical_breeze52" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just weork out a good way to remove the acid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22411|22356|2010-02-05 16:31:42|Paul Wilson|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|For the record, I hired Evan to pull together my hull in 1986. He came highly recommended and he was not at all like Brent describes. Personally, I have no complaints with Evan and am very happy with the result. As far as I know, he did not try or push to change anything in the design. I knew at the time he had almost no sailing experience. It really didn't matter to me since I wasn't asking him to sail the boat, just help build the hull. If what Brent says is true, he has changed. Cheers, Paul brentswain38 wrote: > > > When I see someone taking credit for what I taught them, I have to set > the record straight. When I see someone with no experience redesigning > my boats in ways that will cause problems, I will always warn them. > When I see people heading for a more expensive and less effective way > of doing things, on this or any other site, which wont work as well, > and will cost far more, and I have simpler and more affordable ways of > doing the same thing, I will always submit hem. I have enabled many, > who could never have afforded to cruise in a good, safe, seaworthy > boat, to get off the treadmill, at a price they could afford and go > cruising , by offering affordable innovative solutions for their > problems. Having always considered solutions to their problems public > domain , I have done so for free and have asked for nothing in > 'Consulting fees" even tho they have been sometimes offered. Others on > this site can confirm that. The time I spend trying to solve peoples > cruising challenges on the internet, I do for no financial gain to > myself. For that I make no apology. > When I find info or an idea that may be useful to others I post it > here. Unlike some, I make no effort to monopolise it. > When Evan comes up with a solution he considers it a "Trade Secret" > and gets real pissed of at me every time I teach others how to build > my boats, or write a book telling others how to do their own work. He > hasn't lifted a finger for anyone unless there is a buck in it for > him. That is why boats he builds cost far more in his wages than those > built by others. I feel an obligation to warn people of scam artists . > If they are happy to be scammed that is their choice, but the > obligation to warn them is mine, and that of anyone else who is aware > of it. > My goal, when I build a boat for anyone is to get them cruising as > quickly and as affordably as possible, as well as to enable them to > get the maximum amount of knowledge out of the project to enable them > to do more of their own work in the future.. Evans is to squeeze as > much money out of the client as possible, keep them in the dark as > much as possible, so they will have to hire him to do as much as > possible, . People have the right to know that. > If you simply want to throw money at a boat from a distance, pay > someone else to do all the running around , and not get your hands > dirty, Evan is your man. Don't expect it to come cheap tho.If you > don't mind getting your own hands dirty and learning a bit about metal > work, and enjoy doing a bit of your own work on a project, he is the > last person you want involved. > Evan said it all when he says " Brent doesn't Charge enough." To me, > enough is defined as enough to cover my minimal expenses. Any more is > irrelevant. For a car driving ,land dweller like Evan, no amount is > enough. > I've single handed across the Pacific nine times and done 9 trips to > the Charlottes and back, as well as cruised 11 months a year for the > last 34 years . You say that's not experience? Bullshit. You say that > is less important than spending ones time in a shack in Nanaimo, > without a boat in the water, without having ever sailed more than ten > miles from home port on your own boat? Bullshit. > It sometimes takes a bit more experience to realise the advantages of > innovations I have made, which Evan has resisted. Thus, what people > think of his changes, before they head offshore has little relevance. > ( Like his boats with no ventilation). It takes the experience of > taking a removeable tank out of the bilge after many years of > inaccessible corrosion under it to realise the benefits of a built in > tank, etc etc. Until then, only tidiness counts. > It takes a collision with a rock driving your twin keels into the hull > at their trailing edges to realise the importance of more structural > strength there. Until then those flimsey flatbars look so much tidier > and far more "Professional." > Some have looked at the welds on my boat and said "Pretty rough. I'd > rather hire Evan." Evan did most of the welding on my hull , something > he will never tell you. I let him do it to gather experience and pay > for plans, to save himself some cash, which would have otherwise gone > into my pocket.. > I don't do the welding on my boats. I encourage the owner to teach > himself to do his own welding or hire student, who will work for far > less than I do, to save himself money, which would other wise go into > my pocket. Evan's attitude is the exact opposite.He gets pissed of > when an experienced welder does his own welding. > > Thanks for the invitation to clear up these issues. Much appreciated . > > > | 22412|22356|2010-02-05 17:06:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 08:52:43PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > When I see people heading for a more expensive and less effective way > of doing things, on this or any other site, which wont work as well, > and will cost far more, and I have simpler and more affordable ways of > doing the same thing, I will always submit hem. I have enabled many, > who could never have afforded to cruise in a good, safe, seaworthy > boat, to get off the treadmill, at a price they could afford and go > cruising , by offering affordable innovative solutions for their > problems. Having always considered solutions to their problems public > domain , I have done so for free and have asked for nothing in > 'Consulting fees" even tho they have been sometimes offered. Others on > this site can confirm that. I'll vouch for that right now. A few months ago, I asked Brent, off-list, for help on a complicated problem with redesigning my cooling system; he described an excellent solution, went on to exchange a number of emails with me explaining every detail that I didn't understand, and was incredibly kind and endlessly patient. From a professional consulting perspective, I've rarely had that quality of service regardless of how high the fee was. Keeping in mind that I haven't bought his plans - only his book and DVD - I offered to pay him for his time. He refused it. Whatever other characteristics you can ascribe to Brent Swain, the man is smart, knows cruising boat design better than anyone I've ever read or spoken to in my many years of sailing and cruising, and is generous to a fault. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22413|22356|2010-02-05 17:18:39|Carl Anderson|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Another for the record here: Everything that has been said about Evan "creating work for himself" on our boat project is totally untrue. Most of the "extra work" that was done on MOM was at my insistence with consultation from Evan. I know this as I spent 10 months of my life working side by side with Evan during the building of our hull. Anything that was a departure from the stock plans was carefully discussed and options were given to do things one way or another. Things that I wanted that took considerable extra time to do compared to the stock plans were items that Evan would always attempt to talk me out of. Seemed to me that he was trying to avoid having the extra hours that my extra things would take. Evan Shaler did most of the metal work for our boat MOM. Our boat is THE MOST DOCUMENTED BS36 ever built. Look at our web site at sv-mom.com and see for yourself. If you want to see more then please feel free to purchase the 2 CD's that show the complete story of the building of our boat. (shameless plug here) So... What is happening here is that Brent is upset from a misunderstanding that happened 2 years ago regarding someone who contacted him to pull together a new hull. Then things changed, as so often happens, and this person found an unfinished hull that had been pulled together by Evan. So he had Evan finish the detailing work on this hull. As a result Brent felt that Evan had cheated him out of pulling a new hull together. Even though Brent seems arrogant, immature and xenophobic I will not resort to any personal attacks as he is an excellent designer; quite the "idea man" in his own right. This is what Evan told me at the start: "Brent comes up with most all the ideas for these boats I just build them the best I can". Carl sv-mom.com Paul Wilson wrote: > > > For the record, I hired Evan to pull together my hull in 1986. He came > highly recommended and he was not at all like Brent describes. > Personally, I have no complaints with Evan and am very happy with the > result. As far as I know, he did not try or push to change anything in > the design. I knew at the time he had almost no sailing experience. It > really didn't matter to me since I wasn't asking him to sail the boat, > just help build the hull. If what Brent says is true, he has changed. > > Cheers, Paul > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > When I see someone taking credit for what I taught them, I have to set > > the record straight. When I see someone with no experience redesigning > > my boats in ways that will cause problems, I will always warn them. > > When I see people heading for a more expensive and less effective way > > of doing things, on this or any other site, which wont work as well, > > and will cost far more, and I have simpler and more affordable ways of > > doing the same thing, I will always submit hem. I have enabled many, > > who could never have afforded to cruise in a good, safe, seaworthy > > boat, to get off the treadmill, at a price they could afford and go > > cruising , by offering affordable innovative solutions for their > > problems. Having always considered solutions to their problems public > > domain , I have done so for free and have asked for nothing in > > 'Consulting fees" even tho they have been sometimes offered. Others on > > this site can confirm that. The time I spend trying to solve peoples > > cruising challenges on the internet, I do for no financial gain to > > myself. For that I make no apology. > > When I find info or an idea that may be useful to others I post it > > here. Unlike some, I make no effort to monopolise it. > > When Evan comes up with a solution he considers it a "Trade Secret" > > and gets real pissed of at me every time I teach others how to build > > my boats, or write a book telling others how to do their own work. He > > hasn't lifted a finger for anyone unless there is a buck in it for > > him. That is why boats he builds cost far more in his wages than those > > built by others. I feel an obligation to warn people of scam artists . > > If they are happy to be scammed that is their choice, but the > > obligation to warn them is mine, and that of anyone else who is aware > > of it. > > My goal, when I build a boat for anyone is to get them cruising as > > quickly and as affordably as possible, as well as to enable them to > > get the maximum amount of knowledge out of the project to enable them > > to do more of their own work in the future.. Evans is to squeeze as > > much money out of the client as possible, keep them in the dark as > > much as possible, so they will have to hire him to do as much as > > possible, . People have the right to know that. > > If you simply want to throw money at a boat from a distance, pay > > someone else to do all the running around , and not get your hands > > dirty, Evan is your man. Don't expect it to come cheap tho.If you > > don't mind getting your own hands dirty and learning a bit about metal > > work, and enjoy doing a bit of your own work on a project, he is the > > last person you want involved. > > Evan said it all when he says " Brent doesn't Charge enough." To me, > > enough is defined as enough to cover my minimal expenses. Any more is > > irrelevant. For a car driving ,land dweller like Evan, no amount is > > enough. > > I've single handed across the Pacific nine times and done 9 trips to > > the Charlottes and back, as well as cruised 11 months a year for the > > last 34 years . You say that's not experience? Bullshit. You say that > > is less important than spending ones time in a shack in Nanaimo, > > without a boat in the water, without having ever sailed more than ten > > miles from home port on your own boat? Bullshit. > > It sometimes takes a bit more experience to realise the advantages of > > innovations I have made, which Evan has resisted. Thus, what people > > think of his changes, before they head offshore has little relevance. > > ( Like his boats with no ventilation). It takes the experience of > > taking a removeable tank out of the bilge after many years of > > inaccessible corrosion under it to realise the benefits of a built in > > tank, etc etc. Until then, only tidiness counts. > > It takes a collision with a rock driving your twin keels into the hull > > at their trailing edges to realise the importance of more structural > > strength there. Until then those flimsey flatbars look so much tidier > > and far more "Professional." > > Some have looked at the welds on my boat and said "Pretty rough. I'd > > rather hire Evan." Evan did most of the welding on my hull , something > > he will never tell you. I let him do it to gather experience and pay > > for plans, to save himself some cash, which would have otherwise gone > > into my pocket.. > > I don't do the welding on my boats. I encourage the owner to teach > > himself to do his own welding or hire student, who will work for far > > less than I do, to save himself money, which would other wise go into > > my pocket. Evan's attitude is the exact opposite.He gets pissed of > > when an experienced welder does his own welding. > > > > Thanks for the invitation to clear up these issues. Much appreciated . > > > > > > > > | 22414|22407|2010-02-05 17:40:22|quarnin|Re: Hydroformed hull|Hi this seems very intriguing do u have anymore information I've googled Desigh for Welding but no luck. 18 gauge is a bit thin though but your photos show a very fair hull shape regards RG > The book, "Design for Welding", was published by the James F. Lincoln > Arc Welding Foundation in 1948. It includes 82 papers submitted for > their Awards Program. One is "The Small Sailing Yacht Adapted for Arc > Welding Construction" and shows an experiment that hydroformed a pair > of dinghy hulls. Keels were 3/4" pipe, skins 18 ga. steel, and false > common gunwhales 3/4" pipe. After welding, the hulls looked like a > partially inflated football. Hydroforming water pressure was 100 psi. > Any welding distortion was "pressed out". The hulls were cut apart at > the false gunwhale, a C shape welded to finish the edge, and the > double-ended stern cut off and a transom fitted. The author proposed a > 37' hull with a material list and cost estimates. The plastic > elongation necessary was 12%, easily handled by mild steel and some > aluminum alloys. > I made a model of the 'Helen B. Thomas', a Boston knockabout schooner > built in 1902. The deck and keel were 1/4", the hull skins 16 ga. The > extra heavy deck with the keel extending up to it kept all stretching > in the hull skins. Photos are here: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/jimrudholm/SailboatHull# > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2668 - Release Date: 02/05/10 06:35:00 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22415|22407|2010-02-05 18:42:21|brentswain38|Re: Hydroformed hull|It's easy and inexpensive for anyone to experiment with a couple of pieces of 18 gauge and a bit of tap pressure, to check the idea out further. Could start to be used for bits and pieces other than the hull, initially. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, quarnin wrote: > > Hi this seems very intriguing do u have anymore information I've > googled Desigh for Welding but no luck. > 18 gauge is a bit thin though but your photos show a very fair hull shape > > regards RG > > > The book, "Design for Welding", was published by the James F. Lincoln > > Arc Welding Foundation in 1948. It includes 82 papers submitted for > > their Awards Program. One is "The Small Sailing Yacht Adapted for Arc > > Welding Construction" and shows an experiment that hydroformed a pair > > of dinghy hulls. Keels were 3/4" pipe, skins 18 ga. steel, and false > > common gunwhales 3/4" pipe. After welding, the hulls looked like a > > partially inflated football. Hydroforming water pressure was 100 psi. > > Any welding distortion was "pressed out". The hulls were cut apart at > > the false gunwhale, a C shape welded to finish the edge, and the > > double-ended stern cut off and a transom fitted. The author proposed a > > 37' hull with a material list and cost estimates. The plastic > > elongation necessary was 12%, easily handled by mild steel and some > > aluminum alloys. > > I made a model of the 'Helen B. Thomas', a Boston knockabout schooner > > built in 1902. The deck and keel were 1/4", the hull skins 16 ga. The > > extra heavy deck with the keel extending up to it kept all stretching > > in the hull skins. Photos are here: > > > > http://picasaweb.google.com/jimrudholm/SailboatHull# > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2668 - Release Date: 02/05/10 06:35:00 > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22416|22356|2010-02-05 18:42:50|brentswain38|Re: Ballast: - Hard lead vs. Soft lead|Evan has changed, drastically. He was a very different person back then. The 500 tabs for an interior that normally takes about a couple of dozen is good example, as is the time on Carl's boat. How much of your own welding and cutting did you do, Carl? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > For the record, I hired Evan to pull together my hull in 1986. He came > highly recommended and he was not at all like Brent describes. > Personally, I have no complaints with Evan and am very happy with the > result. As far as I know, he did not try or push to change anything in > the design. I knew at the time he had almost no sailing experience. It > really didn't matter to me since I wasn't asking him to sail the boat, > just help build the hull. If what Brent says is true, he has changed. > > Cheers, Paul > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > When I see someone taking credit for what I taught them, I have to set > > the record straight. When I see someone with no experience redesigning > > my boats in ways that will cause problems, I will always warn them. > > When I see people heading for a more expensive and less effective way > > of doing things, on this or any other site, which wont work as well, > > and will cost far more, and I have simpler and more affordable ways of > > doing the same thing, I will always submit hem. I have enabled many, > > who could never have afforded to cruise in a good, safe, seaworthy > > boat, to get off the treadmill, at a price they could afford and go > > cruising , by offering affordable innovative solutions for their > > problems. Having always considered solutions to their problems public > > domain , I have done so for free and have asked for nothing in > > 'Consulting fees" even tho they have been sometimes offered. Others on > > this site can confirm that. The time I spend trying to solve peoples > > cruising challenges on the internet, I do for no financial gain to > > myself. For that I make no apology. > > When I find info or an idea that may be useful to others I post it > > here. Unlike some, I make no effort to monopolise it. > > When Evan comes up with a solution he considers it a "Trade Secret" > > and gets real pissed of at me every time I teach others how to build > > my boats, or write a book telling others how to do their own work. He > > hasn't lifted a finger for anyone unless there is a buck in it for > > him. That is why boats he builds cost far more in his wages than those > > built by others. I feel an obligation to warn people of scam artists . > > If they are happy to be scammed that is their choice, but the > > obligation to warn them is mine, and that of anyone else who is aware > > of it. > > My goal, when I build a boat for anyone is to get them cruising as > > quickly and as affordably as possible, as well as to enable them to > > get the maximum amount of knowledge out of the project to enable them > > to do more of their own work in the future.. Evans is to squeeze as > > much money out of the client as possible, keep them in the dark as > > much as possible, so they will have to hire him to do as much as > > possible, . People have the right to know that. > > If you simply want to throw money at a boat from a distance, pay > > someone else to do all the running around , and not get your hands > > dirty, Evan is your man. Don't expect it to come cheap tho.If you > > don't mind getting your own hands dirty and learning a bit about metal > > work, and enjoy doing a bit of your own work on a project, he is the > > last person you want involved. > > Evan said it all when he says " Brent doesn't Charge enough." To me, > > enough is defined as enough to cover my minimal expenses. Any more is > > irrelevant. For a car driving ,land dweller like Evan, no amount is > > enough. > > I've single handed across the Pacific nine times and done 9 trips to > > the Charlottes and back, as well as cruised 11 months a year for the > > last 34 years . You say that's not experience? Bullshit. You say that > > is less important than spending ones time in a shack in Nanaimo, > > without a boat in the water, without having ever sailed more than ten > > miles from home port on your own boat? Bullshit. > > It sometimes takes a bit more experience to realise the advantages of > > innovations I have made, which Evan has resisted. Thus, what people > > think of his changes, before they head offshore has little relevance. > > ( Like his boats with no ventilation). It takes the experience of > > taking a removeable tank out of the bilge after many years of > > inaccessible corrosion under it to realise the benefits of a built in > > tank, etc etc. Until then, only tidiness counts. > > It takes a collision with a rock driving your twin keels into the hull > > at their trailing edges to realise the importance of more structural > > strength there. Until then those flimsey flatbars look so much tidier > > and far more "Professional." > > Some have looked at the welds on my boat and said "Pretty rough. I'd > > rather hire Evan." Evan did most of the welding on my hull , something > > he will never tell you. I let him do it to gather experience and pay > > for plans, to save himself some cash, which would have otherwise gone > > into my pocket.. > > I don't do the welding on my boats. I encourage the owner to teach > > himself to do his own welding or hire student, who will work for far > > less than I do, to save himself money, which would other wise go into > > my pocket. Evan's attitude is the exact opposite.He gets pissed of > > when an experienced welder does his own welding. > > > > Thanks for the invitation to clear up these issues. Much appreciated . > > > > > > > | 22417|22407|2010-02-05 21:38:44|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Hydroformed hull|Pressure washers will give you 2000 to 3000 psi if you needed it, so no problem generating the pressures required. You'd just want to make sure there was absolutely no air in there! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 6:41 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hydroformed hull It's easy and inexpensive for anyone to experiment with a couple of pieces of 18 gauge and a bit of tap pressure, to check the idea out further. Could start to be used for bits and pieces other than the hull, initially. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, quarnin wrote: > > Hi this seems very intriguing do u have anymore information I've > googled Desigh for Welding but no luck. > 18 gauge is a bit thin though but your photos show a very fair hull shape > > regards RG > > > The book, "Design for Welding", was published by the James F. Lincoln > > Arc Welding Foundation in 1948. It includes 82 papers submitted for > > their Awards Program. One is "The Small Sailing Yacht Adapted for Arc > > Welding Construction" and shows an experiment that hydroformed a pair > > of dinghy hulls. Keels were 3/4" pipe, skins 18 ga. steel, and false > > common gunwhales 3/4" pipe. After welding, the hulls looked like a > > partially inflated football. Hydroforming water pressure was 100 psi. > > Any welding distortion was "pressed out". The hulls were cut apart at > > the false gunwhale, a C shape welded to finish the edge, and the > > double-ended stern cut off and a transom fitted. The author proposed a > > 37' hull with a material list and cost estimates. The plastic > > elongation necessary was 12%, easily handled by mild steel and some > > aluminum alloys. > > I made a model of the 'Helen B. Thomas', a Boston knockabout schooner > > built in 1902. The deck and keel were 1/4", the hull skins 16 ga. The > > extra heavy deck with the keel extending up to it kept all stretching > > in the hull skins. Photos are here: > > > > http://picasaweb.google.com/jimrudholm/SailboatHull# > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2668 - Release Date: 02/05/10 > > 06:35:00 > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22418|22418|2010-02-05 21:44:37|tropical_breeze52|Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig welding Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both?| 22419|22418|2010-02-05 22:50:01|David Frantz|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|If you are to buy one welder, it should be a stick welder. A common buzz box will do. A MIG process is not suitable for outdoor use. Further the short, stiff, hardnosed hose assembly makes for access issues. Beyound that making good quality MIG welds takes a bit more practice and greater accessibility. I've done a fair amount of MIG welding and can see where it's speed might be useful at times. But there are considerations: 1. A MIG will not handle the entire job with ease and reliability. 2. There is more to learn with MIG and you need to recognize cold starts and other weld failures common to the platform. 3. Penetration can be an issue. 4. You are contantly moving cables a tanks around. In any event time for bed! In summation a simple buzz box will do the trick. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 5, 2010, at 9:41 PM, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > welding > Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22420|22418|2010-02-06 00:44:32|tropical_breeze52|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Your right Wind would be my worst problem and Im a lot better stick welder the mig Cheers --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > If you are to buy one welder, it should be a stick welder. A common > buzz box will do. > > A MIG process is not suitable for outdoor use. Further the short, > stiff, hardnosed hose assembly makes for access issues. Beyound > that making good quality MIG welds takes a bit more practice and > greater accessibility. > > I've done a fair amount of MIG welding and can see where it's speed > might be useful at times. But there are considerations: > 1. A MIG will not handle the entire job with ease and reliability. > 2. There is more to learn with MIG and you need to recognize cold > starts and other weld failures common to the platform. > 3. Penetration can be an issue. > 4. You are contantly moving cables a tanks around. > > In any event time for bed! In summation a simple buzz box will do > the trick. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Feb 5, 2010, at 9:41 PM, tropical_breeze52 > wrote: > > > I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > > welding > > Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > > what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 22421|22418|2010-02-06 03:26:20|ric|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Don't overlook to range of inverter welders now available. With a rating of 200amps the duty cycle is adequate and you will have easy starts, less splash and good even penetration. Plus an easy to move, compact and light unit. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Your right > Wind would be my worst problem and Im a lot better stick welder the mig > Cheers > | 22422|22418|2010-02-06 04:48:52|tropical_breeze52|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Yes I have been looking around did find a inverter arc and plasma cutter combo with tig option and a few other similar welders yes there a nice size If I went mig Id have to build in a shed as the breeze would stuff mig welding so I think your right on the money (inverter) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > Don't overlook to range of inverter welders now available. With a rating of 200amps the duty cycle is adequate and you will have easy starts, less splash and good even penetration. Plus an easy to move, compact and light unit. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Your right > > Wind would be my worst problem and Im a lot better stick welder the mig > > Cheers > > > | 22423|22407|2010-02-06 09:33:51|James|Re: Hydroformed hull|RG, I found two books at Amazon.com. The editor is Robert S. Green. I have scanned the article. The book states: "Permission to publish any material contained herein, either in whole or in part, is granted provided proper credit is given to The James F. Lincoln Arc Welding Foundation." The scan did not copy the photos well. The text is ok. I'll try to post to the Files. Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, quarnin wrote: > > Hi this seems very intriguing do u have anymore information I've > googled Desigh for Welding but no luck. > 18 gauge is a bit thin though but your photos show a very fair hull shape > > regards RG > > > The book, "Design for Welding", was published by the James F. Lincoln > > Arc Welding Foundation in 1948. It includes 82 papers submitted for > > their Awards Program. One is "The Small Sailing Yacht Adapted for Arc > > Welding Construction" and shows an experiment that hydroformed a pair > > of dinghy hulls. Keels were 3/4" pipe, skins 18 ga. steel, and false > > common gunwhales 3/4" pipe. After welding, the hulls looked like a > > partially inflated football. Hydroforming water pressure was 100 psi. > > Any welding distortion was "pressed out". The hulls were cut apart at > > the false gunwhale, a C shape welded to finish the edge, and the > > double-ended stern cut off and a transom fitted. The author proposed a > > 37' hull with a material list and cost estimates. The plastic > > elongation necessary was 12%, easily handled by mild steel and some > > aluminum alloys. > > I made a model of the 'Helen B. Thomas', a Boston knockabout schooner > > built in 1902. The deck and keel were 1/4", the hull skins 16 ga. The > > extra heavy deck with the keel extending up to it kept all stretching > > in the hull skins. Photos are here: > > > > http://picasaweb.google.com/jimrudholm/SailboatHull# > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2668 - Release Date: 02/05/10 06:35:00 > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22424|22407|2010-02-06 10:13:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Hydroformed hull|On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 02:33:35PM -0000, James wrote: > RG, > I found two books at Amazon.com. The editor is Robert S. Green. I > have scanned the article. The book states: "Permission to publish any > material contained herein, either in whole or in part, is granted > provided proper credit is given to The James F. Lincoln Arc Welding > Foundation." Open-source welding. Awesome! :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22425|22407|2010-02-06 14:09:06|James|Re: Hydroformed hull|Here is a link to the rough scan of the "Design for Welding" article on hydroforming: http://picasaweb.google.com/jimrudholm/HydroformedBoat# Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 02:33:35PM -0000, James wrote: > > RG, > > I found two books at Amazon.com. The editor is Robert S. Green. I > > have scanned the article. The book states: "Permission to publish any > > material contained herein, either in whole or in part, is granted > > provided proper credit is given to The James F. Lincoln Arc Welding > > Foundation." > > Open-source welding. Awesome! :) > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22426|22418|2010-02-06 15:01:56|brentswain38|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig welding > Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > | 22427|22407|2010-02-06 15:09:29|brentswain38|Re: Hydroformed hull|A friend who has built both steel and aluminium boats including Americas cup bats tels me thateven se hets of aluminium form the sam epallet bed differently. Its no problem with origami hulls whos shape is defined by the edges, but for hydro forming of bigger hulls there may be a lot of variation. For steel it would be consistent enough. One could weld two sheets for a 36 together ( ahuge amount of temporaery welding) bulge it a bit, then build it in standard origami style. It would be far rounder and displace a bit more( float higher) but would look very round. For aluminium dinghies it would be wonIf you get enough round in a sheet you could simply pullthe beam inand youd have the rocker. Then put pram bow and transom on. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James" wrote: > > RG, > I found two books at Amazon.com. The editor is Robert S. Green. I have scanned the article. The book states: "Permission to publish any material contained herein, either in whole or in part, is granted provided proper credit is given to The James F. Lincoln Arc Welding Foundation." > The scan did not copy the photos well. The text is ok. I'll try to post to the Files. > Jim > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, quarnin wrote: > > > > Hi this seems very intriguing do u have anymore information I've > > googled Desigh for Welding but no luck. > > 18 gauge is a bit thin though but your photos show a very fair hull shape > > > > regards RG > > > > > The book, "Design for Welding", was published by the James F. Lincoln > > > Arc Welding Foundation in 1948. It includes 82 papers submitted for > > > their Awards Program. One is "The Small Sailing Yacht Adapted for Arc > > > Welding Construction" and shows an experiment that hydroformed a pair > > > of dinghy hulls. Keels were 3/4" pipe, skins 18 ga. steel, and false > > > common gunwhales 3/4" pipe. After welding, the hulls looked like a > > > partially inflated football. Hydroforming water pressure was 100 psi. > > > Any welding distortion was "pressed out". The hulls were cut apart at > > > the false gunwhale, a C shape welded to finish the edge, and the > > > double-ended stern cut off and a transom fitted. The author proposed a > > > 37' hull with a material list and cost estimates. The plastic > > > elongation necessary was 12%, easily handled by mild steel and some > > > aluminum alloys. > > > I made a model of the 'Helen B. Thomas', a Boston knockabout schooner > > > built in 1902. The deck and keel were 1/4", the hull skins 16 ga. The > > > extra heavy deck with the keel extending up to it kept all stretching > > > in the hull skins. Photos are here: > > > > > > http://picasaweb.google.com/jimrudholm/SailboatHull# > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2668 - Release Date: 02/05/10 06:35:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22428|22418|2010-02-06 15:21:07|tropical_breeze52|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-INVERTER-MIG-WELDER-250AMP-WITH-REMOTE-WIRE-FEED_W0QQitemZ350312639617QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item519042ac81 I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have 10 meter leads --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig welding > > Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > > > | 22429|22418|2010-02-06 15:38:35|tropical_breeze52|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|or this one here http://cgi.ebay.com.au/200-AMP-ARC-WELDER-TIG-WELDER-WITH-PULSE-2-IN-1-UNIT_W0QQitemZ350311462853QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item519030b7c5 Or this three in one http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PLASMA-CUTTER-ARC-WELDER-TIG-WELDER-3-IN-1-UNIT_W0QQitemZ370328306423QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item56394982f7 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-INVERTER-MIG-WELDER-250AMP-WITH-REMOTE-WIRE-FEED_W0QQitemZ350312639617QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item519042ac81 > I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have 10 meter leads > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig welding > > > Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > > > > > > | 22430|22418|2010-02-06 15:54:20|tropical_breeze52|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|This one Ive had in mind its a three in 50amp plasma with 200 amp inverter stick and tig http://cgi.ebay.com.au/200AMP-AC-DC-TIG-PULSE-INVERTER-WELDER-PLASMA-CUTTER_W0QQitemZ370328310495QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item56394992df I can borrow a oxy when I need it also but for short time only. So thought a plasma might be ok --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > or this one here > http://cgi.ebay.com.au/200-AMP-ARC-WELDER-TIG-WELDER-WITH-PULSE-2-IN-1-UNIT_W0QQitemZ350311462853QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item519030b7c5 > Or this three in one > http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PLASMA-CUTTER-ARC-WELDER-TIG-WELDER-3-IN-1-UNIT_W0QQitemZ370328306423QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item56394982f7 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-INVERTER-MIG-WELDER-250AMP-WITH-REMOTE-WIRE-FEED_W0QQitemZ350312639617QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item519042ac81 > > I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have 10 meter leads > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig welding > > > > Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > > > > > > > > > > | 22431|22418|2010-02-06 16:11:05|David Frantz|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the important question followed closely by all the little limitations that using MIG implies. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-INVERTER-MIG-WELDER-250AMP-WITH-REMOTE-WIRE-FEED_W0QQitemZ350312639617QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item519042ac81 > I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > 10 meter leads > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no >> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a >> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead >> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we >> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" >> wrote: >>> >>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig >>> welding >>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered >>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22432|22418|2010-02-06 17:19:01|Aaron Williams|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Dave I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with...   Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. Aaron --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: From: David Frantz Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM   Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the important question followed closely by all the little limitations that using MIG implies. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > 10 meter leads > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no >> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a >> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead >> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we >> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" >> wrote: >>> >>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig >>> welding >>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered >>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? >>> >> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22433|22418|2010-02-07 11:48:22|David Frantz|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house wiring can't handle much more. I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing if you have other plans for the welder. On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > Dave > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > Aaron > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > asked before on here > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > using MIG implies. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 .. au >> wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have >> 10 meter leads >> >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" >> wrote: >>> >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . >>> >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig >>>> welding >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ >> yahoogroups. comYahoo >> ! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22434|22418|2010-02-07 14:40:28|HAYDN GROSVENOR|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Hi David Well the best stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac motor driving a dc generator welder she was a big bad girl but wow she could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one,  I do use a mig at work  but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be buying  on a small  stick dc inverter tig combo  welder which will do the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board  ( when Its finished ) just in case. one of Brents  yatchs T bones me out at sea Ha Ha Haydn  ________________________________ From: David Frantz To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here   Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house wiring can't handle much more. I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing if you have other plans for the welder. On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > Dave > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > Aaron > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > From: David Frantz > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > asked before on here > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > using MIG implies. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 .. au >> wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have >> 10 meter leads >> >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" >> wrote: >>> >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . >>> >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig >>>> welding >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ >> yahoogroups. comYahoo >> ! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22435|22435|2010-02-07 22:20:05|jpronk1|Termofor wood stove|Have you seen this stove! http://www.termofor.ru/eng/index.html I think this would be great in one of your boats, Brent. James| 22436|22418|2010-02-08 02:54:11|hotelechovictorkilo|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|HI Haydn The OLD CIG tradesmen ARC boxes are also great welders. I have 15 meter long welding cables on mine! Its just ohms law, minimise voltage drop and you can make the cables as long as you want. I would crimp and solder all the cable and connections. The voltage drop on my cables is exactly the same with short leads and long leads. Another old welder if you can find it is the old Lincoln Bullet. Its a huge DC welder probably 3 phase only. Way too big for most people so they sell very cheaply. The only thing that I cant seem to get right is VERTICAL UP WELDING. Anyone have any tricks for doing this right? I used the right rods for vertical up, however you need a lot of practice! I helped someone else build a steel hull and I decided just to use vertical down rather than vertical up. I used used quality 3 pass welds vertically down. Vertically up is supposed to be stronger for what reason I dont really know. Craig --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > Hi David > Well the best stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac motor driving a dc generator welder she was a big bad girl but wow she could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. > I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one,  I do use a mig at work  but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be buying  on a small  stick dc inverter tig combo  welder which will do the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board  ( when Its finished ) just in case. one of Brents  yatchs T bones me out at sea Ha Ha > Haydn  > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Frantz > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here > >   > Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! > It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately > that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I > pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money > for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. > > As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. > It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house > wiring can't handle much more. > > I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. > Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required > two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural > steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. > Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature > welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more > importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the > additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. > > If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing > if you have other plans for the welder. > > On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend > freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling > TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Dave > > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > > asked before on here > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > > using MIG implies. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 > .. au > >> wrote: > > > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- > >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ > >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > >> 10 meter leads > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no > >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a > >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead > >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we > >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > >>> > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > >>>> welding > >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22439|14535|2010-02-08 06:33:52|Don|Re: Alex & Brents Video|Well Alex another compliment. Just watched it again today. It's funny, my housemate is a fitter turner and his initial reaction when looking at photo's etc. were pretty skeptical. He watched the video separately to me, while I was at work, and phoned me to tell me that we are going to have to build a motor launch for him first! I am going to stick with a Junk Rigged Wylo although I really like the raised cabin and deck arrangement on yours. Lots of time yet but tell me if it is not being rude, how much did your hull cost you in steel? I have a great mate who works in a stainless steel mill! Mates rates! For the trim that is. Thanks again, it was easy to watch and so many questions answered. I might have worked out Brents accent when I next watch it! Don --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Oil country also has a lot of scrap SS cheap. My Brisbane uncle tells > me that the sugar industry also put out lots of scrap stainless, as do > brewrys, restaurants, etc. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > > > Thanks for the compliment, Brien, makes the work of the video > editing worth it. > > > > My bare hull is trimmed out entirely in stainless, and now I feel > lucky to have been able to find so much of it in pulp mill country. > It's like gold now, that stuff! I have a lovely 4 foot long piece of > sch 40 pipe which is I think 7 inch diameter (or maybe 6, I will > measure), if someone wants to buy it. It is perfect for the aft-facing > vents and vent in anchor well. > > > > Good luck with your project, and we look forward to hearing how it > all goes for you! Very smart to get cracking on the lead-gathering. I > dropped the ball on that one and didn't buy when it was cheaper. Some > old fart has all the wheel shops tied up with his cannon-ball making > biz (for fishing), so I'm out of luck there for it! I will keep > searching so as to avoid regular market cost. > > > > Alex > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: troller10 > > Date: Friday, September 28, 2007 6:43 am > > Subject: [origamiboats] Alex & Brents Video > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > I received Alex's video a while back, and I just wanted to tell > > > everyone that it is worth the money. > > > > > > Brent makes it look easy, that is for sure. > > > > > > I have collected 1200 lbs of wheel weights, so far and the local tire > > > shop has promised me all I can get from them. Plus, I have a > > > connection to a guy that recycles forklift counter weights, (Steel > > > cased Lead). > > > > > > I found the 2.5" dia. solid steel shaft, (for the leading edges > > > of the > > > keels), at the local steel recycler, (at a third of the price > > > from a > > > steel supplier). > > > > > > The prices that the recyclers are paying have really brought a > > > lot of > > > scrap out of the fields. > > > > > > Scrap stainless is of hard to find in my area, (lots of thin tubing > > > but no sched 40 pipe). > > > > > > It will take me longer than the 3 weeks it would take Brent to stitch > > > a hull together, but it will be done. > > > > > > Thanks for a great Group Alex. > > > > > > Brien > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22440|22418|2010-02-08 06:38:17|James Pronk|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Craig Are you using a whip as you weld up? It is a very small stroke up then back down again. It is only about 5mm long. Your weld pool cools slightly as you go up then you go back down again into the bottom of the weld pool to fill it, then up again, just a little higher, and just keep going. Your slag will be drooping, it is what you call grapes, your weld should be good under this. James --- On Mon, 2/8/10, hotelechovictorkilo wrote: From: hotelechovictorkilo Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, February 8, 2010, 2:51 AM   HI Haydn The OLD CIG tradesmen ARC boxes are also great welders. I have 15 meter long welding cables on mine! Its just ohms law, minimise voltage drop and you can make the cables as long as you want. I would crimp and solder all the cable and connections. The voltage drop on my cables is exactly the same with short leads and long leads. Another old welder if you can find it is the old Lincoln Bullet. Its a huge DC welder probably 3 phase only. Way too big for most people so they sell very cheaply. The only thing that I cant seem to get right is VERTICAL UP WELDING. Anyone have any tricks for doing this right? I used the right rods for vertical up, however you need a lot of practice! I helped someone else build a steel hull and I decided just to use vertical down rather than vertical up. I used used quality 3 pass welds vertically down. Vertically up is supposed to be stronger for what reason I dont really know. Craig --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > Hi David > Well the best stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac motor driving a dc generator welder she was a big bad girl but wow she could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. > I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one,  I do use a mig at work  but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be buying  on a small  stick dc inverter tig combo  welder which will do the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board  ( when Its finished ) just in case. one of Brents  yatchs T bones me out at sea Ha Ha > Haydn  > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: David Frantz > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here > >   > Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! > It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately > that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I > pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money > for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. > > As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. > It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house > wiring can't handle much more. > > I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. > Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required > two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural > steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. > Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature > welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more > importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the > additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. > > If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing > if you have other plans for the welder. > > On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend > freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling > TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Dave > > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > > asked before on here > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > > using MIG implies. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 > .. au > >> wrote: > > > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- > >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ > >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > >> 10 meter leads > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no > >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a > >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead > >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we > >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > >>> > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > >>>> welding > >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger .yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22441|22435|2010-02-08 07:05:41|martin demers|Re: Termofor wood stove|I might be wrong but it look like a hippie-killer, it seems made of thin metal. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 03:19:56 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Termofor wood stove Have you seen this stove! http://www.termofor.ru/eng/index.html I think this would be great in one of your boats, Brent. James _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22445|22445|2010-02-08 12:14:14|markh|Re: Alex and Brents Video|Considering that this thread was prefaced by two advertising sex tapes and material--I was rather concerned about what I was going to find when I opened it--;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22447|22447|2010-02-08 13:05:23|jjoftheusa|Enough is Enough|How about getting rid of the porn| 22448|22448|2010-02-08 13:05:38|JJ & Irene|(no subject)|How about getting rid of the porn Jewel (aka JJ) & Irene Johnson Rockport, Texas   Heal the Past, Live the Present, Dream the Future.   Always Be Safe   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22449|22445|2010-02-08 13:34:00|Norm Moore|Re: Alex and Brents Video|It's pretty easy to spot unwanted spam and delete it. Hopefully your e-mail allows you to exclude spam. This happens on every group, just learn how to deal with it. Norm Moore 559-645-5314 ________________________________ From: markh To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, February 8, 2010 9:13:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alex and Brents Video Considering that this thread was prefaced by two advertising sex tapes and material--I was rather concerned about what I was going to find when I opened it--;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22451|14535|2010-02-08 14:55:18|theboilerflue|Re: Alex & Brents Video|The video is pretty good, it's a neat thing to see put together by basically two people and a couple of come-a-longs in what? like a period of a month or so? Alex or Brent what is the time span that the video covers that was pretty close to what the hull was when I got it and I'm curious. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Don" wrote: > > Well Alex another compliment. Just watched it again today. > > It's funny, my housemate is a fitter turner and his initial reaction when looking at photo's etc. were pretty skeptical. He watched the video separately to me, while I was at work, and phoned me to tell me that we are going to have to build a motor launch for him first! > > I am going to stick with a Junk Rigged Wylo although I really like the raised cabin and deck arrangement on yours. Lots of time yet but tell me if it is not being rude, how much did your hull cost you in steel? > > I have a great mate who works in a stainless steel mill! Mates rates! For the trim that is. > > Thanks again, it was easy to watch and so many questions answered. I might have worked out Brents accent when I next watch it! > > Don > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Oil country also has a lot of scrap SS cheap. My Brisbane uncle tells > > me that the sugar industry also put out lots of scrap stainless, as do > > brewrys, restaurants, etc. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > > > > > Thanks for the compliment, Brien, makes the work of the video > > editing worth it. > > > > > > My bare hull is trimmed out entirely in stainless, and now I feel > > lucky to have been able to find so much of it in pulp mill country. > > It's like gold now, that stuff! I have a lovely 4 foot long piece of > > sch 40 pipe which is I think 7 inch diameter (or maybe 6, I will > > measure), if someone wants to buy it. It is perfect for the aft-facing > > vents and vent in anchor well. > > > > > > Good luck with your project, and we look forward to hearing how it > > all goes for you! Very smart to get cracking on the lead-gathering. I > > dropped the ball on that one and didn't buy when it was cheaper. Some > > old fart has all the wheel shops tied up with his cannon-ball making > > biz (for fishing), so I'm out of luck there for it! I will keep > > searching so as to avoid regular market cost. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: troller10 > > > Date: Friday, September 28, 2007 6:43 am > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Alex & Brents Video > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > I received Alex's video a while back, and I just wanted to tell > > > > everyone that it is worth the money. > > > > > > > > Brent makes it look easy, that is for sure. > > > > > > > > I have collected 1200 lbs of wheel weights, so far and the local tire > > > > shop has promised me all I can get from them. Plus, I have a > > > > connection to a guy that recycles forklift counter weights, (Steel > > > > cased Lead). > > > > > > > > I found the 2.5" dia. solid steel shaft, (for the leading edges > > > > of the > > > > keels), at the local steel recycler, (at a third of the price > > > > from a > > > > steel supplier). > > > > > > > > The prices that the recyclers are paying have really brought a > > > > lot of > > > > scrap out of the fields. > > > > > > > > Scrap stainless is of hard to find in my area, (lots of thin tubing > > > > but no sched 40 pipe). > > > > > > > > It will take me longer than the 3 weeks it would take Brent to stitch > > > > a hull together, but it will be done. > > > > > > > > Thanks for a great Group Alex. > > > > > > > > Brien > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 22454|22418|2010-02-08 15:21:56|hotelechovictorkilo|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Hi James I have been using a "U" as I push up. Maybe thats where I have been going wrong. The "whip" makes more sense, I will try it and report back. Craig --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Craig > Are you using a whip as you weld up? It is a very small stroke up then back down again. It is only about 5mm long. Your weld pool cools slightly as you go up then you go back down again into the bottom of the weld pool to fill it, then up again, just a little higher, and just keep going. > Your slag will be drooping, it is what you call grapes, your weld should be good under this. > James > > --- On Mon, 2/8/10, hotelechovictorkilo wrote: > > > From: hotelechovictorkilo > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Monday, February 8, 2010, 2:51 AM > > >   > > > > HI Haydn > > The OLD CIG tradesmen ARC boxes are also great welders. I have 15 meter long welding cables on mine! Its just ohms law, minimise voltage drop and you can make the cables as long as you want. I would crimp and solder all the cable and connections. The voltage drop on my cables is exactly the same with short leads and long leads. > > Another old welder if you can find it is the old Lincoln Bullet. Its a huge DC welder probably 3 phase only. Way too big for most people so they sell very cheaply. > > The only thing that I cant seem to get right is VERTICAL UP WELDING. Anyone have any tricks for doing this right? > > I used the right rods for vertical up, however you need a lot of practice! I helped someone else build a steel hull and I decided just to use vertical down rather than vertical up. I used used quality 3 pass welds vertically down. Vertically up is supposed to be stronger for what reason I dont really know. > > Craig > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > > > Hi David > > Well the best stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac motor driving a dc generator welder she was a big bad girl but wow she could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. > > I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one,  I do use a mig at work  but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be buying  on a small  stick dc inverter tig combo  welder which will do the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board  ( when Its finished ) just in case. one of Brents  yatchs T bones me out at sea Ha Ha > > Haydn  > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > From: David Frantz > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here > > > >   > > Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! > > It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately > > that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I > > pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money > > for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. > > > > As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. > > It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house > > wiring can't handle much more. > > > > I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. > > Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required > > two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural > > steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. > > Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature > > welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more > > importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the > > additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. > > > > If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing > > if you have other plans for the welder. > > > > On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend > > freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling > > TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > Dave > > > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > > > > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > > > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > > > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > > > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > > > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > > > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > > > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > > > asked before on here > > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > > > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > > > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > > > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > > > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > > > > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > > > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > > > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > > > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > > > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > > > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > > > using MIG implies. > > > > > > David A Frantz > > > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 > > .. au > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- > > >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ > > >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > > >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > > >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > > >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > > >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > > >> 10 meter leads > > >> > > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no > > >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a > > >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead > > >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we > > >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" > > >>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > > >>>> welding > > >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > > >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > > >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > > >> ! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger .yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22457|22457|2010-02-08 16:36:53|theboilerflue|mast moving|here's a good rig for those of you that are/were thinking of hauling a 47 foot long mast down the highway page 210 http://books.google.ca/books?id=bYO_Uuj07mgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22how+to+make+money+with+boats%22&ei=k39wS67SMJ2IkATtqOj4DA&client=firefox-a&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false| 22458|22418|2010-02-08 19:04:54|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Craig, For vertical up you'll find it is easier if the rod is rated as "fast freeze". It is all about controlling the temperature of the weld puddle. You can't pile molten metal on top of molten metal, it has to solidify enough to support the metal above it. With stick the arc length controls the heat input. A longer arc generates less heat because the resistance of the plasma is higher, and the current is therefore lower. So part of the whipping technique is creating a longer arc to input less heat. In whipping you are also moving the arc off the weld puddle and onto the colder metal to the sides. Trying welding with some 7018 vertical up. When you finish the slag will look like grapes, but underneath the weld bead can have just gentle ripples. Pipe welders use 7018 for the cover pass because it tends to be very non-porous and leak free. It is not good for root passes because the slag is very difficult to chip out in a V groove. I had a buddy who was an awesome welder. I hired him to do some structural welding and he made beautiful welds vertical up using 5/32" rods! We got done in a hurry because he was so fast, and the deposition rate was very high. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "hotelechovictorkilo" To: Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 2:51 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here HI Haydn The OLD CIG tradesmen ARC boxes are also great welders. I have 15 meter long welding cables on mine! Its just ohms law, minimise voltage drop and you can make the cables as long as you want. I would crimp and solder all the cable and connections. The voltage drop on my cables is exactly the same with short leads and long leads. Another old welder if you can find it is the old Lincoln Bullet. Its a huge DC welder probably 3 phase only. Way too big for most people so they sell very cheaply. The only thing that I cant seem to get right is VERTICAL UP WELDING. Anyone have any tricks for doing this right? I used the right rods for vertical up, however you need a lot of practice! I helped someone else build a steel hull and I decided just to use vertical down rather than vertical up. I used used quality 3 pass welds vertically down. Vertically up is supposed to be stronger for what reason I dont really know. Craig --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > Hi David > Well the best stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac > motor driving a dc generator welder she was a big bad girl but wow she > could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. > I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one, I do use a mig at > work but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be > buying  on a small stick dc inverter tig combo welder which will do > the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board  ( when Its > finished ) just in case. one of Brents yatchs T bones me out at sea Ha > Ha > Haydn > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Frantz > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked > before on here > >  > Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! > It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately > that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I > pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money > for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. > > As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. > It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house > wiring can't handle much more. > > I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. > Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required > two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural > steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. > Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature > welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more > importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the > additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. > > If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing > if you have other plans for the welder. > > On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend > freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling > TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Dave > > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > > asked before on here > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > > using MIG implies. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 > yahoo.com > > .. au > >> wrote: > > > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- > >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ > >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > >> 10 meter leads > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no > >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a > >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead > >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we > >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > >>> > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > >>>> welding > >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > > yahoogroups. comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22459|22407|2010-02-08 19:57:24|brentswain38|Re: Hydroformed hull|Sorry for the typos. Finished the message and found less than a minute on the computer, so I hit send. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A friend who has built both steel and aluminium boats including Americas cup bats tels me thateven se hets of aluminium form the sam epallet bed differently. Its no problem with origami hulls whos shape is defined by the edges, but for hydro forming of bigger hulls there may be a lot of variation. For steel it would be consistent enough. One could weld two sheets for a 36 together ( ahuge amount of temporaery welding) bulge it a bit, then build it in standard origami style. It would be far rounder and displace a bit more( float higher) but would look very round. For aluminium dinghies it would be wonIf you get enough round in a sheet you could simply pullthe beam inand youd have the rocker. Then put pram bow and transom on. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James" wrote: > > > > RG, > > I found two books at Amazon.com. The editor is Robert S. Green. I have scanned the article. The book states: "Permission to publish any material contained herein, either in whole or in part, is granted provided proper credit is given to The James F. Lincoln Arc Welding Foundation." > > The scan did not copy the photos well. The text is ok. I'll try to post to the Files. > > Jim > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, quarnin wrote: > > > > > > Hi this seems very intriguing do u have anymore information I've > > > googled Desigh for Welding but no luck. > > > 18 gauge is a bit thin though but your photos show a very fair hull shape > > > > > > regards RG > > > > > > > The book, "Design for Welding", was published by the James F. Lincoln > > > > Arc Welding Foundation in 1948. It includes 82 papers submitted for > > > > their Awards Program. One is "The Small Sailing Yacht Adapted for Arc > > > > Welding Construction" and shows an experiment that hydroformed a pair > > > > of dinghy hulls. Keels were 3/4" pipe, skins 18 ga. steel, and false > > > > common gunwhales 3/4" pipe. After welding, the hulls looked like a > > > > partially inflated football. Hydroforming water pressure was 100 psi. > > > > Any welding distortion was "pressed out". The hulls were cut apart at > > > > the false gunwhale, a C shape welded to finish the edge, and the > > > > double-ended stern cut off and a transom fitted. The author proposed a > > > > 37' hull with a material list and cost estimates. The plastic > > > > elongation necessary was 12%, easily handled by mild steel and some > > > > aluminum alloys. > > > > I made a model of the 'Helen B. Thomas', a Boston knockabout schooner > > > > built in 1902. The deck and keel were 1/4", the hull skins 16 ga. The > > > > extra heavy deck with the keel extending up to it kept all stretching > > > > in the hull skins. Photos are here: > > > > > > > > http://picasaweb.google.com/jimrudholm/SailboatHull# > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2668 - Release Date: 02/05/10 06:35:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 22460|22447|2010-02-08 20:03:51|brentswain38|Re: Enough is Enough|Done. I was away from internet connections for a couple of days --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jjoftheusa" wrote: > > How about getting rid of the porn > | 22461|14535|2010-02-08 20:05:51|brentswain38|Re: Alex & Brents Video|Weld a bit of mild steel to the shafts and then hit it with a sledge hammer to make sure it's no fancy alloy that doesn't weld well. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > I received Alex's video a while back, and I just wanted to tell > everyone that it is worth the money. > > Brent makes it look easy, that is for sure. > > I have collected 1200 lbs of wheel weights, so far and the local tire > shop has promised me all I can get from them. Plus, I have a > connection to a guy that recycles forklift counter weights, (Steel > cased Lead). > > I found the 2.5" dia. solid steel shaft, (for the leading edges of the > keels), at the local steel recycler, (at a third of the price from a > steel supplier). > > The prices that the recyclers are paying have really brought a lot of > scrap out of the fields. > > Scrap stainless is of hard to find in my area, (lots of thin tubing > but no sched 40 pipe). > > It will take me longer than the 3 weeks it would take Brent to stitch > a hull together, but it will be done. > > Thanks for a great Group Alex. > > Brien > | 22463|22418|2010-02-09 02:24:35|hotelechovictorkilo|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Hi Gary Thanks for the tips. I have some 7018's I will try them using the long arc techniques that you mention. Thanks Craig --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Craig, > For vertical up you'll find it is easier if the rod is rated as "fast > freeze". It is all about controlling the temperature of the weld puddle. > You can't pile molten metal on top of molten metal, it has to solidify > enough to support the metal above it. With stick the arc length controls > the heat input. A longer arc generates less heat because the resistance of > the plasma is higher, and the current is therefore lower. So part of the > whipping technique is creating a longer arc to input less heat. In whipping > you are also moving the arc off the weld puddle and onto the colder metal to > the sides. > > Trying welding with some 7018 vertical up. When you finish the slag will > look like grapes, but underneath the weld bead can have just gentle ripples. > Pipe welders use 7018 for the cover pass because it tends to be very > non-porous and leak free. It is not good for root passes because the slag > is very difficult to chip out in a V groove. > > I had a buddy who was an awesome welder. I hired him to do some structural > welding and he made beautiful welds vertical up using 5/32" rods! We got > done in a hurry because he was so fast, and the deposition rate was very > high. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hotelechovictorkilo" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 2:51 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before > on here > > > HI Haydn > > The OLD CIG tradesmen ARC boxes are also great welders. I have 15 meter long > welding cables on mine! Its just ohms law, minimise voltage drop and you can > make the cables as long as you want. I would crimp and solder all the cable > and connections. The voltage drop on my cables is exactly the same with > short leads and long leads. > > Another old welder if you can find it is the old Lincoln Bullet. Its a huge > DC welder probably 3 phase only. Way too big for most people so they sell > very cheaply. > > > The only thing that I cant seem to get right is VERTICAL UP WELDING. Anyone > have any tricks for doing this right? > > I used the right rods for vertical up, however you need a lot of practice! I > helped someone else build a steel hull and I decided just to use vertical > down rather than vertical up. I used used quality 3 pass welds vertically > down. Vertically up is supposed to be stronger for what reason I dont > really know. > > Craig > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, HAYDN GROSVENOR > wrote: > > > > Hi David > > Well the best stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac > > motor driving a dc generator welder she was a big bad girl but wow she > > could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. > > I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one, I do use a mig at > > work but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be > > buying  on a small stick dc inverter tig combo welder which will do > > the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board  ( when Its > > finished ) just in case. one of Brents yatchs T bones me out at sea Ha > > Ha > > Haydn > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: David Frantz > > To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > > Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked > > before on here > > > >  > > Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! > > It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately > > that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I > > pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money > > for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. > > > > As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. > > It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house > > wiring can't handle much more. > > > > I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. > > Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required > > two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural > > steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. > > Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature > > welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more > > importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the > > additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. > > > > If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing > > if you have other plans for the welder. > > > > On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend > > freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling > > TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > Dave > > > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > > > > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > > > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > > > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > > > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > > > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > > > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > > > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > > > asked before on here > > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > > > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > > > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > > > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > > > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > > > > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > > > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > > > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > > > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > > > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > > > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > > > using MIG implies. > > > > > > David A Frantz > > > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 > > yahoo.com > > > .. au > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- > > >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ > > >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > > >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > > >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > > >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > > >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > > >> 10 meter leads > > >> > > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no > > >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a > > >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead > > >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we > > >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" > > >>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > > >>>> welding > > >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > > >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > > >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > > >> ! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > > > yahoogroups. comYahoo > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22471|22407|2010-02-09 11:10:36|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Hydroformed hull|This is a fascinating but possibly impractical idea for building any vessel much larger than a dinghy, but apparently did work well for that.  The author's dinghy was 40" beam and made of 16 gauge steel.  His proposed yacht (actually yachts, the vessels have to be formed in pairs) was to be of 8 gauge steel (about three times as thick) and about three times that beam.  The pressure required to form it, by his calculation P = 40,000*t*2/B, would therefore be similar to that required for the dinghy, a little over 100 psi.  That's doable.  But the hulls while being formed would have to contain water twice the volume of one hull up to the sheer line (not just the LWL), which for the two hulls would be at least six times the targeted displacement of one of the yachts.  The pressure on the lowermost hull from the contained water would be not much greater than the applied pressure of 100 psi, since the pressure at the bottom of a column of water 20 feet high is only about 9 psi.  But the contained water would weigh at least 60,000 lb, plus the 20,000 or so pounds of steel.  A substantial supporting framework would be required.  Not to mention a provision for releasing the water gradually, and from a bottom fitting. But could not the same thing be done with air pressure?  The 100 psi range is obtainable with even homeowner units, if you just let them run long enough.  Pressure is pressure; it should not matter whether the fluid is air, water or hydraulic fluid. If the structure leaks air somewhere, it would be easily detected with soapy water and remedied by welding. Probably the biggest drawback of the method,  at least for amateur application, is that it requires that two vessels be built simultaneously.  That is, you must find two people who want to (and can) build the same vessel at the same time in the same place.  I think when that happens, if ever, they are already married and need only one boat! But security-minded cruising authors recommend carrying two dinghies, the second for the use of anyone who might be left aboard while the first is in use, or for giving the appearance of the yacht being occupied even when no one is aboard.  Remember also that two dinghies made by this method would nest.  If someone takes on this project, I would surely like to see the pictures, and I would dearly like to know what became of the author's intention "to build two such boats for the 1947-48 season." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22474|22407|2010-02-09 12:10:05|Aaron Williams|Re: Hydroformed hull|Don't under estimate the danger of compressed air. The volume you need just for a dingy would level your house if you had a severe failure in the steel sheet or the weld. Aaron --- On Tue, 2/9/10, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: From: RICHARD KOKEMOOR Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hydroformed hull To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 7:10 AM   This is a fascinating but possibly impractical idea for building any vessel much larger than a dinghy, but apparently did work well for that.  The author's dinghy was 40" beam and made of 16 gauge steel.  His proposed yacht (actually yachts, the vessels have to be formed in pairs) was to be of 8 gauge steel (about three times as thick) and about three times that beam.  The pressure required to form it, by his calculation P = 40,000*t*2/B, would therefore be similar to that required for the dinghy, a little over 100 psi.  That's doable.  But the hulls while being formed would have to contain water twice the volume of one hull up to the sheer line (not just the LWL), which for the two hulls would be at least six times the targeted displacement of one of the yachts.  The pressure on the lowermost hull from the contained water would be not much greater than the applied pressure of 100 psi, since the pressure at the bottom of a column of water 20 feet high is only about 9 psi.  But the contained water would weigh at least 60,000 lb, plus the 20,000 or so pounds of steel.  A substantial supporting framework would be required.  Not to mention a provision for releasing the water gradually, and from a bottom fitting. But could not the same thing be done with air pressure?  The 100 psi range is obtainable with even homeowner units, if you just let them run long enough.  Pressure is pressure; it should not matter whether the fluid is air, water or hydraulic fluid. If the structure leaks air somewhere, it would be easily detected with soapy water and remedied by welding. Probably the biggest drawback of the method,  at least for amateur application, is that it requires that two vessels be built simultaneously.  That is, you must find two people who want to (and can) build the same vessel at the same time in the same place.  I think when that happens, if ever, they are already married and need only one boat! But security-minded cruising authors recommend carrying two dinghies, the second for the use of anyone who might be left aboard while the first is in use, or for giving the appearance of the yacht being occupied even when no one is aboard.  Remember also that two dinghies made by this method would nest.  If someone takes on this project, I would surely like to see the pictures, and I would dearly like to know what became of the author's intention "to build two such boats for the 1947-48 season." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22478|22447|2010-02-09 14:27:34|Paul Wilson|Re: Enough is Enough|I thought new members were screened to stop this kind of thing? I have never seen it so bad. Are you the only moderator now? I can't remember when I last heard from Alex. Thanks for all your efforts. Cheers, Paul brentswain38 wrote: > > Done. I was away from internet connections for a couple of days > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "jjoftheusa" > wrote: > > > > How about getting rid of the porn > > > > | 22483|22483|2010-02-10 01:57:57|theboilerflue|SEXY ANCHOR FROM BRASIL WANTS MEMBERS INPUT ---- NO REALLY IT'S KIND|I just ran across this anyone have any experiance with this kind of anchor looks kinda easy to make much like the Rocna, check out the tempest especially,| 22484|22483|2010-02-10 02:06:50|theboilerflue|Re: SEXY ANCHOR FROM BRASIL WANTS MEMBERS INPUT ---- NO REALLY IT'S |--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I just ran across this anyone have any experiance with this kind of anchor looks kinda easy to make much like the Rocna, check out the tempest especially, >oops... here's the link http://www.ancoralatina.com/acolhimento/ingles/description_carateristic/a_better_penetration.html| 22485|22418|2010-02-10 04:30:07|martin demers|Re: Stick weld or Mig /welding from under|Hi, Could someone with the experience tell me the method to stick weld from underneath a plate. I have to close the opening made for a motor well in the rear of my boat with a 1/8 in. plate. I was thinking of welding it inside since I was never very successfull welding by under unless I learn the right method. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 03:38:12 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here Craig Are you using a whip as you weld up? It is a very small stroke up then back down again. It is only about 5mm long. Your weld pool cools slightly as you go up then you go back down again into the bottom of the weld pool to fill it, then up again, just a little higher, and just keep going. Your slag will be drooping, it is what you call grapes, your weld should be good under this. James --- On Mon, 2/8/10, hotelechovictorkilo wrote: From: hotelechovictorkilo Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, February 8, 2010, 2:51 AM HI Haydn The OLD CIG tradesmen ARC boxes are also great welders. I have 15 meter long welding cables on mine! Its just ohms law, minimise voltage drop and you can make the cables as long as you want. I would crimp and solder all the cable and connections. The voltage drop on my cables is exactly the same with short leads and long leads. Another old welder if you can find it is the old Lincoln Bullet. Its a huge DC welder probably 3 phase only. Way too big for most people so they sell very cheaply. The only thing that I cant seem to get right is VERTICAL UP WELDING. Anyone have any tricks for doing this right? I used the right rods for vertical up, however you need a lot of practice! I helped someone else build a steel hull and I decided just to use vertical down rather than vertical up. I used used quality 3 pass welds vertically down. Vertically up is supposed to be stronger for what reason I dont really know. Craig --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > Hi David > Well the best� stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac motor driving a dc� generator� welder she was a big bad girl but wow she could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. > I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one,� I do use a mig at work� but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be� buying � on a small� stick dc inverter� tig combo� welder which will do the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board� � ( when Its finished� )� just in case. one of Brents� yatchs� T bones me out at sea Ha Ha > Haydn� > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: David Frantz > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here > > � > Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! > It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately > that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I > pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money > for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. > > As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. > It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house > wiring can't handle much more. > > I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. > Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required > two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural > steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. > Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature > welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more > importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the > additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. > > If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing > if you have other plans for the welder. > > On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend > freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling > TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Dave > > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > > asked before on here > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > > using MIG implies. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 > .. au > >> wrote: > > > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- > >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ > >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > >> 10 meter leads > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no > >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a > >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead > >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we > >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > >>> > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > >>>> welding > >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger .yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer� 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Voici T�l�phone WindowsMD. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9708128 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22487|22483|2010-02-10 08:05:33|James Pronk|Re: SEXY ANCHOR FROM BRASIL WANTS MEMBERS INPUT ---- NO REALLY IT'S |I have seen these but not in use. The person that had one had good to say about it but they were spending alot of time at the dock. James --- On Wed, 2/10/10, theboilerflue wrote: From: theboilerflue Subject: [origamiboats] Re: SEXY ANCHOR FROM BRASIL WANTS MEMBERS INPUT ---- NO REALLY IT'S KINDA NEAT To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 2:05 AM   --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I just ran across this anyone have any experiance with this kind of anchor looks kinda easy to make much like the Rocna, check out the tempest especially, >oops... here's the link http://www.ancorala tina.com/ acolhimento/ ingles/descripti on_carateristic/ a_better_ penetration. html __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22488|22488|2010-02-10 09:16:41|bert|Origami vs. America's Cup|Yup, they just had another postponement of the Cup race in Spain. "Waves 4 to 6 feet on the Med....it could have turned into a demolition derby." Oh, wow, hundreds of millions of dollars for these babies and they can't handle 4 to 6 footers? See, one of the origami boats could have won the America's Cup today for a tiny fraction of that kind of money....But then the silver cup would just clutter up one Brent's 36 footers ;o) BTW, does anyone know which networks will televise it if the guys ever think the seas are kind enough not to hurt their multi-million dollar babies? Be neat to watch. Bert in Michigan| 22489|22418|2010-02-10 10:01:12|Aaron Williams|Re: Stick weld or Mig /welding from under|Think of welding flat while welding overhead, like looking in a mirror sometime things are backwards push insted of pull. always try to start away from your self and weld to yourself as the rod gets shorter your arm get longer. try that the other way and both get shorter. What welding electrode are you using Low hydrogen E7018 or celulose E6010 --- On Wed, 2/10/10, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig /welding from under To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 12:29 AM Hi, Could someone with the experience tell me the method to stick weld from underneath a plate. I have to close the opening made for a motor well in the rear of my boat with a 1/8 in. plate. I was thinking of welding it  inside since I was never very successfull welding  by under unless I learn the right method. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 03:38:12 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here                         Craig Are you using a whip as you weld up? It is a very small stroke up then back down again. It is only about 5mm long. Your weld pool cools slightly as you go up then you go back down again into the bottom of the weld pool to fill it, then up again, just a little higher, and just keep going. Your slag will be drooping, it is what you call grapes, your weld should be good under this. James --- On Mon, 2/8/10, hotelechovictorkilo wrote: From: hotelechovictorkilo Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, February 8, 2010, 2:51 AM   HI Haydn The OLD CIG tradesmen ARC boxes are also great welders. I have 15 meter long welding cables on mine! Its just ohms law, minimise voltage drop and you can make the cables as long as you want. I would crimp and solder all the cable and connections. The voltage drop on my cables is exactly the same with short leads and long leads. Another old welder if you can find it is the old Lincoln Bullet. Its a huge DC welder probably 3 phase only. Way too big for most people so they sell very cheaply. The only thing that I cant seem to get right is VERTICAL UP WELDING. Anyone have any tricks for doing this right? I used the right rods for vertical up, however you need a lot of practice! I helped someone else build a steel hull and I decided just to use vertical down rather than vertical up. I used used quality 3 pass welds vertically down. Vertically up is supposed to be stronger for what reason I dont really know. Craig --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > Hi David > Well the best stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac motor driving a dc generator welder she was a big bad girl but wow she could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. > I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one,  I do use a mig at work  but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be buying  on a small  stick dc inverter tig combo  welder which will do the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board  ( when Its finished ) just in case. one of Brents  yatchs T bones me out at sea Ha Ha > Haydn > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: David Frantz > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here > >   > Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! > It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately > that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I > pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money > for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. > > As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. > It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house > wiring can't handle much more. > > I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. > Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required > two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural > steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. > Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature > welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more > importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the > additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. > > If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing > if you have other plans for the welder. > > On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend > freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling > TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Dave > > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > > asked before on here > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > > using MIG implies. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 > .. au > >> wrote: > > > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- > >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ > >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > >> 10 meter leads > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no > >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a > >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead > >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we > >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > >>> > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > >>>> welding > >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger .yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                _________________________________________________________________ Voici Téléphone WindowsMD. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9708128 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22490|22490|2010-02-10 10:12:45|SHANE ROTHWELL|Enough is enough|Is there any way of either/both barring these jerks or setting something up so that everyone can send them, automatically (have it run all night or something) 50,0000,00000,0000 emails from each and every one of us telling them to fuck off & clogging up their system? Asking them politely is not going to stop them, but to completely shut them down by drowning them in volume may. If we could do this as a standard, then when we get a spammer it does not even have to be disgussed, just send them a zillion emails to clog them up. We have a couple thousand members don't we? __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 22491|22483|2010-02-10 10:32:55|Carl Anderson|Re: SEXY ANCHOR FROM BRASIL WANTS MEMBERS INPUT ---- NO REALLY IT'S |Looks like the spade/rocna/manson concept. Carl sv-mom.com theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > I just ran across this anyone have any experiance with this kind of > anchor looks kinda easy to make much like the Rocna, check out the > tempest especially, > >oops... here's the link > > http://www.ancoralatina.com/acolhimento/ingles/description_carateristic/a_better_penetration.html > > > | 22493|22488|2010-02-10 11:46:44|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Origami vs. America's Cup|Bert, The Cup Races will not be carried by TV in the States but are available for free over the Web. The excuse is that do to the changing venue and "short" notice, there was insufficient time to set up contracts for the coverage. R/Jay Resepectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas Save the whales, collect the whole set. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bert Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 9:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Origami vs. America's Cup Yup, they just had another postponement of the Cup race in Spain. "Waves 4 to 6 feet on the Med....it could have turned into a demolition derby." Oh, wow, hundreds of millions of dollars for these babies and they can't handle 4 to 6 footers? See, one of the origami boats could have won the America's Cup today for a tiny fraction of that kind of money....But then the silver cup would just clutter up one Brent's 36 footers ;o) BTW, does anyone know which networks will televise it if the guys ever think the seas are kind enough not to hurt their multi-million dollar babies? Be neat to watch. Bert in Michigan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22494|22407|2010-02-10 13:05:15|Helmut Schlager|Re: Hydroformed hull|hello group please could someone explain what 16 gauge steel means: what thickness (I gess?) is gauge, what relationship to other imerial measurement exists? I also have seen that wire is sometime measured in "gauge"... does it mean 1/16 inch? but than I dont understand that 8 gauge ist 3 times as thick?? and: is somebody willing to explain the hydroforming in very simple english I`m not sure I understand it in the right manner. thanks in advance helmut RICHARD KOKEMOOR schrieb: > > > This is a fascinating but possibly impractical idea for building any > vessel much larger than a dinghy, but apparently did work well for > that. The author's dinghy was 40" beam and made of 16 gauge steel. > His proposed yacht (actually yachts, the vessels have to be formed in > pairs) was to be of 8 gauge steel (about three times as thick) and > about three times that beam. The pressure required to form it, by his > calculation P = 40,000*t*2/B, would therefore be similar to that > required for the dinghy, a little over 100 psi. That's doable. > But the hulls while being formed would have to contain water twice the > volume of one hull up to the sheer line (not just the LWL), which for > the two hulls would be at least six times the targeted displacement of > one of the yachts. The pressure on the lowermost hull from the > contained water would be not much greater than the applied pressure of > 100 psi, since the pressure at the bottom of a column of water 20 feet > high is only about 9 psi. But the contained water would weigh at > least 60,000 lb, plus the 20,000 or so pounds of steel. A substantial > supporting framework would be required. Not to mention a provision > for releasing the water gradually, and from a bottom fitting. > But could not the same thing be done with air pressure? The 100 psi > range is obtainable with even homeowner units, if you just let them > run long enough. Pressure is pressure; it should not matter whether > the fluid is air, water or hydraulic fluid. If the structure leaks air > somewhere, it would be easily detected with soapy water and remedied > by welding. > Probably the biggest drawback of the method, at least for amateur > application, is that it requires that two vessels be built > simultaneously. That is, you must find two people who want to (and > can) build the same vessel at the same time in the same place. I > think when that happens, if ever, they are already married and need > only one boat! > But security-minded cruising authors recommend carrying two dinghies, > the second for the use of anyone who might be left aboard while the > first is in use, or for giving the appearance of the yacht being > occupied even when no one is aboard. Remember also that two dinghies > made by this method would nest. If someone takes on this project, I > would surely like to see the pictures, and I would dearly like to know > what became of the author's intention "to build two such boats for the > 1947-48 season." > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22495|22495|2010-02-10 13:12:22|Dave|Unsubscribe me niow|How do I get out of this site? jerx seem to have ruined it| 22497|22495|2010-02-10 13:29:47|David Frantz|Re: Unsubscribe me niow|The site gets attacked by porn pedlars two days in a row and you just up and leave? Believe me I don't want the crap filling up my mail box either bit fighting these guys is not easy. So atleast give the moderators reasonable time. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Dave wrote: > How do I get out of this site? jerx seem to have ruined it > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22498|22418|2010-02-10 13:36:08|john kupris|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Vertical welding, Practice every thing in a vise , with all welds, verticle'    very accurate spacing, I used.  1/16" E6011 butt rods for spacing  on the hot side but I used 1/8" .  A dc welder was the easiest to weld it with. . weld tacks about 3 times an Inch.   It works and after you spot weld , you will have lots of confidence, keep it cool .. John Building a 42' Gazelle , in Chicago...   ________________________________ From: hotelechovictorkilo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 1:21:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here   Hi Gary Thanks for the tips. I have some 7018's I will try them using the long arc techniques that you mention. Thanks Craig --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Craig, > For vertical up you'll find it is easier if the rod is rated as "fast > freeze". It is all about controlling the temperature of the weld puddle. > You can't pile molten metal on top of molten metal, it has to solidify > enough to support the metal above it. With stick the arc length controls > the heat input. A longer arc generates less heat because the resistance of > the plasma is higher, and the current is therefore lower. So part of the > whipping technique is creating a longer arc to input less heat. In whipping > you are also moving the arc off the weld puddle and onto the colder metal to > the sides. > > Trying welding with some 7018 vertical up. When you finish the slag will > look like grapes, but underneath the weld bead can have just gentle ripples. > Pipe welders use 7018 for the cover pass because it tends to be very > non-porous and leak free. It is not good for root passes because the slag > is very difficult to chip out in a V groove. > > I had a buddy who was an awesome welder. I hired him to do some structural > welding and he made beautiful welds vertical up using 5/32" rods! We got > done in a hurry because he was so fast, and the deposition rate was very > high. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hotelechovictorkil o" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 2:51 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before > on here > > > HI Haydn > > The OLD CIG tradesmen ARC boxes are also great welders. I have 15 meter long > welding cables on mine! Its just ohms law, minimise voltage drop and you can > make the cables as long as you want. I would crimp and solder all the cable > and connections. The voltage drop on my cables is exactly the same with > short leads and long leads. > > Another old welder if you can find it is the old Lincoln Bullet. Its a huge > DC welder probably 3 phase only. Way too big for most people so they sell > very cheaply. > > > The only thing that I cant seem to get right is VERTICAL UP WELDING. Anyone > have any tricks for doing this right? > > I used the right rods for vertical up, however you need a lot of practice! I > helped someone else build a steel hull and I decided just to use vertical > down rather than vertical up. I used used quality 3 pass welds vertically > down. Vertically up is supposed to be stronger for what reason I dont > really know. > > Craig > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, HAYDN GROSVENOR > wrote: > > > > Hi David > > Well the best stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac > > motor driving a dc generator welder she was a big bad girl but wow she > > could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. > > I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one, I do use a mig at > > work but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be > > buying  on a small stick dc inverter tig combo welder which will do > > the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board  ( when Its > > finished ) just in case. one of Brents yatchs T bones me out at sea Ha > > Ha > > Haydn > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > From: David Frantz > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked > > before on here > > > >  > > Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! > > It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately > > that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I > > pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money > > for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. > > > > As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. > > It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house > > wiring can't handle much more. > > > > I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. > > Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required > > two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural > > steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. > > Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature > > welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more > > importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the > > additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. > > > > If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing > > if you have other plans for the welder. > > > > On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend > > freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling > > TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > Dave > > > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > > > > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > > > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > > > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > > > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > > > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > > > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > > > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > > > asked before on here > > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > > > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > > > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > > > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > > > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > > > > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > > > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > > > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > > > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > > > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > > > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > > > using MIG implies. > > > > > > David A Frantz > > > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 > > yahoo.com > > > .. au > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- > > >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ > > >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > > >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > > >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > > >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > > >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > > >> 10 meter leads > > >> > > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no > > >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a > > >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead > > >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we > > >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" > > >>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > > >>>> welding > > >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > > >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > > >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > > >> ! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > > > yahoogroups. comYahoo > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22499|22490|2010-02-10 13:43:48|brentswain38|Re: Enough is enough|I don't know the computer game as well as Alex, or some of you do, or I would Alex, do you know any tricks to deal with these assholes? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Is there any way of either/both barring these jerks or setting something up so that everyone can send them, automatically (have it run all night or something) 50,0000,00000,0000 emails from each and every one of us telling them to fuck off & clogging up their system? > > Asking them politely is not going to stop them, but to completely shut them down by drowning them in volume may. > > If we could do this as a standard, then when we get a spammer it does not even have to be disgussed, just send them a zillion emails to clog them up. We have a couple thousand members don't we? > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > | 22500|14535|2010-02-10 13:54:41|brentswain38|Re: Alex & Brents Video|I can't remember how long we took total with Alex's hull, as we took breaks, but I have put together hull, decks cabin cockpit, wheelhouse, keels and skeg in under a week and a half. Maybe its the guys trying to sell the stone age imitation wooden boatbuilding methods who are sending us the porn etc. Luddites try anything to slow the rate of progress, to a rate their pea brains can keep up with. I've banned several of them, but somehow it just keeps coming.It's definitely a sabotage attempt. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > The video is pretty good, it's a neat thing to see put together by basically two people and a couple of come-a-longs in what? like a period of a month or so? Alex or Brent what is the time span that the video covers that was pretty close to what the hull was when I got it and I'm curious. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Don" wrote: > > > > Well Alex another compliment. Just watched it again today. > > > > It's funny, my housemate is a fitter turner and his initial reaction when looking at photo's etc. were pretty skeptical. He watched the video separately to me, while I was at work, and phoned me to tell me that we are going to have to build a motor launch for him first! > > > > I am going to stick with a Junk Rigged Wylo although I really like the raised cabin and deck arrangement on yours. Lots of time yet but tell me if it is not being rude, how much did your hull cost you in steel? > > > > I have a great mate who works in a stainless steel mill! Mates rates! For the trim that is. > > > > Thanks again, it was easy to watch and so many questions answered. I might have worked out Brents accent when I next watch it! > > > > Don > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > Oil country also has a lot of scrap SS cheap. My Brisbane uncle tells > > > me that the sugar industry also put out lots of scrap stainless, as do > > > brewrys, restaurants, etc. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks for the compliment, Brien, makes the work of the video > > > editing worth it. > > > > > > > > My bare hull is trimmed out entirely in stainless, and now I feel > > > lucky to have been able to find so much of it in pulp mill country. > > > It's like gold now, that stuff! I have a lovely 4 foot long piece of > > > sch 40 pipe which is I think 7 inch diameter (or maybe 6, I will > > > measure), if someone wants to buy it. It is perfect for the aft-facing > > > vents and vent in anchor well. > > > > > > > > Good luck with your project, and we look forward to hearing how it > > > all goes for you! Very smart to get cracking on the lead-gathering. I > > > dropped the ball on that one and didn't buy when it was cheaper. Some > > > old fart has all the wheel shops tied up with his cannon-ball making > > > biz (for fishing), so I'm out of luck there for it! I will keep > > > searching so as to avoid regular market cost. > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: troller10 > > > > Date: Friday, September 28, 2007 6:43 am > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Alex & Brents Video > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > I received Alex's video a while back, and I just wanted to tell > > > > > everyone that it is worth the money. > > > > > > > > > > Brent makes it look easy, that is for sure. > > > > > > > > > > I have collected 1200 lbs of wheel weights, so far and the local tire > > > > > shop has promised me all I can get from them. Plus, I have a > > > > > connection to a guy that recycles forklift counter weights, (Steel > > > > > cased Lead). > > > > > > > > > > I found the 2.5" dia. solid steel shaft, (for the leading edges > > > > > of the > > > > > keels), at the local steel recycler, (at a third of the price > > > > > from a > > > > > steel supplier). > > > > > > > > > > The prices that the recyclers are paying have really brought a > > > > > lot of > > > > > scrap out of the fields. > > > > > > > > > > Scrap stainless is of hard to find in my area, (lots of thin tubing > > > > > but no sched 40 pipe). > > > > > > > > > > It will take me longer than the 3 weeks it would take Brent to stitch > > > > > a hull together, but it will be done. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for a great Group Alex. > > > > > > > > > > Brien > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 22501|22418|2010-02-10 13:59:30|brentswain38|Re: Stick weld or Mig /welding from under|The trick with overhead welding is to point the stick in the direction you are traveling, pointing the heat away from the puddle, then get the speed perfect. Too slow and the puddle gets too big and drops, Too fast and you leave holes. Just fast enough to fill the puddle and no slower.Keep the heat low around 90 amps for 1/8th 6011. 60 is the tensile strength ( 60,000 psi) 11 the freezing rate. 7024 is very slow freezing which is why it doesn't work so well overhead. 24 is too runny , but makes smooth horizontal welds for that reason. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > Hi, > Could someone with the experience tell me the method to stick weld from underneath a plate. I have to close the opening made for a motor well in the rear of my boat with a 1/8 in. plate. I was thinking of welding it inside since I was never very successfull welding by under unless I learn the right method. > Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 03:38:12 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > Are you using a whip as you weld up? It is a very small stroke up then back down again. It is only about 5mm long. Your weld pool cools slightly as you go up then you go back down again into the bottom of the weld pool to fill it, then up again, just a little higher, and just keep going. > > Your slag will be drooping, it is what you call grapes, your weld should be good under this. > > James > > > > --- On Mon, 2/8/10, hotelechovictorkilo wrote: > > > > From: hotelechovictorkilo > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Monday, February 8, 2010, 2:51 AM > > > > > > > > HI Haydn > > > > The OLD CIG tradesmen ARC boxes are also great welders. I have 15 meter long welding cables on mine! Its just ohms law, minimise voltage drop and you can make the cables as long as you want. I would crimp and solder all the cable and connections. The voltage drop on my cables is exactly the same with short leads and long leads. > > > > Another old welder if you can find it is the old Lincoln Bullet. Its a huge DC welder probably 3 phase only. Way too big for most people so they sell very cheaply. > > > > The only thing that I cant seem to get right is VERTICAL UP WELDING. Anyone have any tricks for doing this right? > > > > I used the right rods for vertical up, however you need a lot of practice! I helped someone else build a steel hull and I decided just to use vertical down rather than vertical up. I used used quality 3 pass welds vertically down. Vertically up is supposed to be stronger for what reason I dont really know. > > > > Craig > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > > > > > Hi David > > > Well the best stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac motor driving a dc generator welder she was a big bad girl but wow she could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. > > > I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one, I do use a mig at work but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be buying  on a small stick dc inverter tig combo welder which will do the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board  ( when Its finished ) just in case. one of Brents yatchs T bones me out at sea Ha Ha > > > Haydn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > From: David Frantz > > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > > Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here > > > > > >  > > > Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! > > > It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately > > > that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I > > > pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money > > > for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. > > > > > > As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. > > > It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house > > > wiring can't handle much more. > > > > > > I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. > > > Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required > > > two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural > > > steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. > > > Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature > > > welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more > > > importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the > > > additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. > > > > > > If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing > > > if you have other plans for the welder. > > > > > > On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend > > > freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling > > > TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. > > > > > > David A Frantz > > > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > > > Dave > > > > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > > > > > > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > > > > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > > > > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > > > > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > > > > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > > > > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > > > > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > > > > asked before on here > > > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > > > > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > > > > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > > > > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > > > > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > > > > > > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > > > > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > > > > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > > > > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > > > > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > > > > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > > > > using MIG implies. > > > > > > > > David A Frantz > > > > > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 > > > .. au > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- > > > >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ > > > >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > > > >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > > > >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > > > >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > > > >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > > > >> 10 meter leads > > > >> > > > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > > >> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no > > > >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a > > > >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead > > > >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we > > > >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > > > >>>> welding > > > >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > > > >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > > > >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > > > >> ! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger .yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Voici Téléphone WindowsMD. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9708128 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22502|22407|2010-02-10 14:09:44|theboilerflue|Re: Hydroformed hull|Gauge was the amount of times a sheet of steel was put through the rollers, so the higher the number the more squished and therefore thinner it was. However since every steel was different at the time I'm sure it meant dick all, and is a ridiculous way to measure, well anything. Here's a chart, keeping with the ridiculous theme here, it's in imperial measurements. http://www.engineersedge.com/gauge.htm --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager wrote: > > hello group > > please could someone explain what 16 gauge steel means: what thickness > (I gess?) is gauge, what relationship to other imerial measurement exists? > I also have seen that wire is sometime measured in "gauge"... > > does it mean 1/16 inch? > but than I dont understand that 8 gauge ist 3 times as thick?? > > and: is somebody willing to explain the hydroforming in very simple > english I`m not sure I understand it in the right manner. > > thanks in advance > helmut > > > RICHARD KOKEMOOR schrieb: > > > > > > This is a fascinating but possibly impractical idea for building any > > vessel much larger than a dinghy, but apparently did work well for > > that. The author's dinghy was 40" beam and made of 16 gauge steel. > > His proposed yacht (actually yachts, the vessels have to be formed in > > pairs) was to be of 8 gauge steel (about three times as thick) and > > about three times that beam. The pressure required to form it, by his > > calculation P = 40,000*t*2/B, would therefore be similar to that > > required for the dinghy, a little over 100 psi. That's doable. > > But the hulls while being formed would have to contain water twice the > > volume of one hull up to the sheer line (not just the LWL), which for > > the two hulls would be at least six times the targeted displacement of > > one of the yachts. The pressure on the lowermost hull from the > > contained water would be not much greater than the applied pressure of > > 100 psi, since the pressure at the bottom of a column of water 20 feet > > high is only about 9 psi. But the contained water would weigh at > > least 60,000 lb, plus the 20,000 or so pounds of steel. A substantial > > supporting framework would be required. Not to mention a provision > > for releasing the water gradually, and from a bottom fitting. > > But could not the same thing be done with air pressure? The 100 psi > > range is obtainable with even homeowner units, if you just let them > > run long enough. Pressure is pressure; it should not matter whether > > the fluid is air, water or hydraulic fluid. If the structure leaks air > > somewhere, it would be easily detected with soapy water and remedied > > by welding. > > Probably the biggest drawback of the method, at least for amateur > > application, is that it requires that two vessels be built > > simultaneously. That is, you must find two people who want to (and > > can) build the same vessel at the same time in the same place. I > > think when that happens, if ever, they are already married and need > > only one boat! > > But security-minded cruising authors recommend carrying two dinghies, > > the second for the use of anyone who might be left aboard while the > > first is in use, or for giving the appearance of the yacht being > > occupied even when no one is aboard. Remember also that two dinghies > > made by this method would nest. If someone takes on this project, I > > would surely like to see the pictures, and I would dearly like to know > > what became of the author's intention "to build two such boats for the > > 1947-48 season." > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22503|22407|2010-02-10 14:41:15|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Hydroformed hull|The term gauge goes back to the way steel sheets are made, by rolling them thinner and thinner. So 16 gauge sheet took sixteen passes through a particular type of rolling mill. an 8 gauge sheet was rolled less and was therefore thicker. The fact that different mills needed a different number of passes meant that there are a number of gauge specifications out there. However 16 gauge is generally about 0.060" thick or 1.5 mm. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helmut Schlager" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hydroformed hull > hello group > > please could someone explain what 16 gauge steel means: what thickness > (I gess?) is gauge, what relationship to other imerial measurement exists? > I also have seen that wire is sometime measured in "gauge"... > > does it mean 1/16 inch? > but than I dont understand that 8 gauge ist 3 times as thick?? > > and: is somebody willing to explain the hydroforming in very simple > english I`m not sure I understand it in the right manner. > > thanks in advance > helmut > > > RICHARD KOKEMOOR schrieb: >> >> >> This is a fascinating but possibly impractical idea for building any >> vessel much larger than a dinghy, but apparently did work well for >> that. The author's dinghy was 40" beam and made of 16 gauge steel. >> His proposed yacht (actually yachts, the vessels have to be formed in >> pairs) was to be of 8 gauge steel (about three times as thick) and >> about three times that beam. The pressure required to form it, by his >> calculation P = 40,000*t*2/B, would therefore be similar to that >> required for the dinghy, a little over 100 psi. That's doable. >> But the hulls while being formed would have to contain water twice the >> volume of one hull up to the sheer line (not just the LWL), which for >> the two hulls would be at least six times the targeted displacement of >> one of the yachts. The pressure on the lowermost hull from the >> contained water would be not much greater than the applied pressure of >> 100 psi, since the pressure at the bottom of a column of water 20 feet >> high is only about 9 psi. But the contained water would weigh at >> least 60,000 lb, plus the 20,000 or so pounds of steel. A substantial >> supporting framework would be required. Not to mention a provision >> for releasing the water gradually, and from a bottom fitting. >> But could not the same thing be done with air pressure? The 100 psi >> range is obtainable with even homeowner units, if you just let them >> run long enough. Pressure is pressure; it should not matter whether >> the fluid is air, water or hydraulic fluid. If the structure leaks air >> somewhere, it would be easily detected with soapy water and remedied >> by welding. >> Probably the biggest drawback of the method, at least for amateur >> application, is that it requires that two vessels be built >> simultaneously. That is, you must find two people who want to (and >> can) build the same vessel at the same time in the same place. I >> think when that happens, if ever, they are already married and need >> only one boat! >> But security-minded cruising authors recommend carrying two dinghies, >> the second for the use of anyone who might be left aboard while the >> first is in use, or for giving the appearance of the yacht being >> occupied even when no one is aboard. Remember also that two dinghies >> made by this method would nest. If someone takes on this project, I >> would surely like to see the pictures, and I would dearly like to know >> what became of the author's intention "to build two such boats for the >> 1947-48 season." >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 22504|22407|2010-02-10 14:50:29|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Hydroformed hull|Air would be so dangerous you can't believe. Lots of people have been killed by using old propane or Freon tanks for air compressors. However, the place to expand your full size hull would be in the water. Drag it into the water, expand it, and then pump low pressure air into it to displace the water so it floats. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "RICHARD KOKEMOOR" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:10 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hydroformed hull This is a fascinating but possibly impractical idea for building any vessel much larger than a dinghy, but apparently did work well for that. The author's dinghy was 40" beam and made of 16 gauge steel. His proposed yacht (actually yachts, the vessels have to be formed in pairs) was to be of 8 gauge steel (about three times as thick) and about three times that beam. The pressure required to form it, by his calculation P = 40,000*t*2/B, would therefore be similar to that required for the dinghy, a little over 100 psi. That's doable. But the hulls while being formed would have to contain water twice the volume of one hull up to the sheer line (not just the LWL), which for the two hulls would be at least six times the targeted displacement of one of the yachts. The pressure on the lowermost hull from the contained water would be not much greater than the applied pressure of 100 psi, since the pressure at the bottom of a column of water 20 feet high is only about 9 psi. But the contained water would weigh at least 60,000 lb, plus the 20,000 or so pounds of steel. A substantial supporting framework would be required. Not to mention a provision for releasing the water gradually, and from a bottom fitting. But could not the same thing be done with air pressure? The 100 psi range is obtainable with even homeowner units, if you just let them run long enough. Pressure is pressure; it should not matter whether the fluid is air, water or hydraulic fluid. If the structure leaks air somewhere, it would be easily detected with soapy water and remedied by welding. Probably the biggest drawback of the method, at least for amateur application, is that it requires that two vessels be built simultaneously. That is, you must find two people who want to (and can) build the same vessel at the same time in the same place. I think when that happens, if ever, they are already married and need only one boat! But security-minded cruising authors recommend carrying two dinghies, the second for the use of anyone who might be left aboard while the first is in use, or for giving the appearance of the yacht being occupied even when no one is aboard. Remember also that two dinghies made by this method would nest. If someone takes on this project, I would surely like to see the pictures, and I would dearly like to know what became of the author's intention "to build two such boats for the 1947-48 season." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22506|22506|2010-02-10 15:51:32|Aaron Williams|Re: ANCHOR A real boat anchor|Nice idea for an anchor. I agree it reminds me of a Rocna  also. --- On Wed, 2/10/10, mkriley48 wrote: From: mkriley48 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: SEXY ANCHOR FROM BRASIL WANTS MEMBERS INPUT ---- NO REALLY IT'S KINDA NEAT To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 9:28 AM   this looks very good I must admit. I agree about the tempest, seems expensive what with shipping. mike --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > I just ran across this anyone have any experiance with this kind of anchor looks kinda easy to make much like the Rocna, check out the tempest especially, > >oops... here's the link > > http://www.ancorala tina.com/ acolhimento/ ingles/descripti on_carateristic/ a_better_ penetration. html > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22507|22490|2010-02-10 15:58:10|wild_explorer|Re: Enough is enough|Turn ON moderation for New members. Read this http://playingwithsid.blogspot.com/2008/01/what-works-in-yahoo-groups-spam-control.html --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I don't know the computer game as well as Alex, or some of you do, or I would > Alex, do you know any tricks to deal with these assholes? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Is there any way of either/both barring these jerks or setting something up so that everyone can send them, automatically (have it run all night or something) 50,0000,00000,0000 emails from each and every one of us telling them to fuck off & clogging up their system? > > > > Asking them politely is not going to stop them, but to completely shut them down by drowning them in volume may. > > > > If we could do this as a standard, then when we get a spammer it does not even have to be disgussed, just send them a zillion emails to clog them up. We have a couple thousand members don't we? > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > | 22508|22508|2010-02-10 20:16:19|brentswain38|Porn|I tried to dump the porn and eliminate the posters. Hope I didn't delete any real members by mistake. I didn't want to open each one. That would take a long time. Brent| 22509|22490|2010-02-10 20:56:10|Dale J. Robertson|Very, Very Bad idea was Enough is enough|You should know that spammers NEVER use their own email address. They hijack (it's known as spoofing) someone else's address. You can be fairly certain that any email you send to the "from" or "reply-to" address of a spam email message will be clogging the email system of an innocent party. You should also be aware that what you are advocating is classified as a cyber-crime in many jurisdictions. As a law abiding netizen, not making any attempt to conceal your identity, you would be way easier to track down and might be an appealing target for a lazy cyber-crime fighter looking to meet his/her quota! As frustrating as all this is, the best course of action is still "burn before reading" i.e. delete without opening Dale J. Robertson SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > Is there any way of either/both barring these jerks or setting > something up so that everyone can send them, automatically (have it > run all night or something) 50,0000,00000,0000 emails from each and > every one of us telling them to fuck off & clogging up their system? > > Asking them politely is not going to stop them, but to completely shut > them down by drowning them in volume may. > > If we could do this as a standard, then when we get a spammer it does > not even have to be disgussed, just send them a zillion emails to clog > them up. We have a couple thousand members don't we? > > __________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22510|22447|2010-02-11 05:54:49|Sikander.|Re: Enough is Enough|I'm in Vietnam right now on a late tour of duty (my draft card finally came in), with spotty access to the internet, so unfortunately cannot moderate all the messages currently. Normally I quietly ban and delete spammers, which is perhaps why you have noticed an increase lately! Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I thought new members were screened to stop this kind of thing? I have > never seen it so bad. Are you the only moderator now? I can't remember > when I last heard from Alex. Thanks for all your efforts. > > Cheers, Paul > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Done. I was away from internet connections for a couple of days > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "jjoftheusa" > > wrote: > > > > > > How about getting rid of the porn > > > > > > > > | 22511|22490|2010-02-11 07:11:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: Enough is enough|On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 06:43:32PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I don't know the computer game as well as Alex, or some of you do, or I would > Alex, do you know any tricks to deal with these assholes? Wildexplorer is right on the dot with this - turn on automatic moderation for new members. The only problem with this approach is that it requires a little more time and attention from the moderator: you'd have to figure out how often you want to check the new posts, then see if a new member is actually posting origami-relevant stuff. If they're not, you kick them out. This works better (i.e., is less annoying) if you've got two or more people doing it, but shouldn't take more than five minutes for each cycle. I'm willing to help if you'd find it useful. (Folks, we don't really want the job of moderating this list to become a burden to Brent. I'm volunteering to help, but it would sure be nice if some of you other long-time members offered your help too.) The downside is that new members' first emails don't get posted to the group until you approve them. That doesn't seem like much of a burden, especially if the interval is no more than a couple of days. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22512|22490|2010-02-11 10:11:47|Dave Ladd|Re: Enough is enough|I volunteer also. . Lurking in front of a computer all day, so let me know if you want me to help moderate. On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 06:43:32PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > I don't know the computer game as well as Alex, or some of you do, or I > would > > Alex, do you know any tricks to deal with these assholes? > > Wildexplorer is right on the dot with this - turn on automatic > moderation for new members. The only problem with this approach is that > it requires a little more time and attention from the moderator: you'd > have to figure out how often you want to check the new posts, then see > if a new member is actually posting origami-relevant stuff. If they're > not, you kick them out. This works better (i.e., is less annoying) if > you've got two or more people doing it, but shouldn't take more than > five minutes for each cycle. I'm willing to help if you'd find it > useful. > > (Folks, we don't really want the job of moderating this list to become a > burden to Brent. I'm volunteering to help, but it would sure be nice if > some of you other long-time members offered your help too.) > > The downside is that new members' first emails don't get posted to the > group until you approve them. That doesn't seem like much of a burden, > especially if the interval is no more than a couple of days. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22513|22447|2010-02-11 10:41:08|SHANE ROTHWELL|Enough is Enough|Dale, Your point appreciated, but it's all pretty bloody pathetic isn't it? Seems there are a lot of people who have a bloody caniption everytime they see their own, or anyone elses, shaddow. (when in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!) Terrorism? I had a cup of coffee this moring. Does that make me a terrorist? At this rate, I wonder how long it is going to take before america implodes? It's obviously not you who makes these bloody moronic laws, but what about the rest of us, just suck it up? Posted by: "Dale J. Robertson" dale@... djrobertson_99 Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:56 pm (PST) You should know that spammers NEVER use their own email address. They hijack (it's known as spoofing) someone else's address. You can be fairly certain that any email you send to the "from" or "reply-to" address of a spam email message will be clogging the email system of an innocent party. You should also be aware that what you are advocating is classified as a cyber-crime in many jurisdictions. As a law abiding netizen, not making any attempt to conceal your identity, you would be way easier to track down and might be an appealing target for a lazy cyber-crime fighter looking to meet his/her quota! As frustrating as all this is, the best course of action is still "burn before reading" i.e. delete without opening Dale J. Robertson SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > Is there any way of either/both barring these jerks or setting > something up so that everyone can send them, automatically (have it > run all night or something) 50,0000,00000, 0000 emails from each and > every one of us telling them to fuck off & clogging up their system? > > Asking them politely is not going to stop them, but to completely shut > them down by drowning them in volume may. > > If we could do this as a standard, then when we get a spammer it does > not even have to be disgussed, just send them a zillion emails to clog > them up. We have a couple thousand members don't we? > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 22514|22447|2010-02-11 11:15:43|brentswain38|Re: Enough is Enough|Alex and I don't monitor this site every hour of the day. I may go many days without internet access. Just ignore the spammers, and I'll do what I can, when I can, to clean it up. Don't open up their messages, or even acknowledge them. I've tried in the past to get rid of these spammers, but they seem to keep coming back. I'll do what I can , but I'm not supergeek. If I accidentally blocked members , just log in again under another name and email address. That's what they do. Don't give them the power to do more harm, by letting them discourage you from tapping into this source of info. That is empowering them. This remains one of the best sites on the net, with some highly qualified contributors. Contributors don't owe us anything so we should be grateful for the expertise they offer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Dale, > > Your point appreciated, but it's all pretty bloody pathetic isn't it? > > Seems there are a lot of people who have a bloody caniption everytime they see their own, or anyone elses, shaddow. (when in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!) > > Terrorism? I had a cup of coffee this moring. Does that make me a terrorist? > > At this rate, I wonder how long it is going to take before america implodes? > > It's obviously not you who makes these bloody moronic laws, but what about the rest of us, just suck it up? > > > > Posted by: "Dale J. Robertson" dale@... djrobertson_99 > Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:56 pm (PST) > > > You should know that spammers NEVER use their own email address. They > hijack (it's known as spoofing) someone else's address. You can be > fairly certain that any email you send to the "from" or "reply-to" > address of a spam email message will be clogging the email system of an > innocent party. > You should also be aware that what you are advocating is classified as a > cyber-crime in many jurisdictions. As a law abiding netizen, not making > any attempt to conceal your identity, you would be way easier to track > down and might be an appealing target for a lazy cyber-crime fighter > looking to meet his/her quota! > As frustrating as all this is, the best course of action is still "burn > before reading" i.e. delete without opening > Dale J. Robertson > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > > > Is there any way of either/both barring these jerks or setting > > something up so that everyone can send them, automatically (have it > > run all night or something) 50,0000,00000, 0000 emails from each and > > every one of us telling them to fuck off & clogging up their system? > > > > Asking them politely is not going to stop them, but to completely shut > > them down by drowning them in volume may. > > > > If we could do this as a standard, then when we get a spammer it does > > not even have to be disgussed, just send them a zillion emails to clog > > them up. We have a couple thousand members don't we? > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > | 22515|22447|2010-02-11 13:02:12|theboilerflue|Re: Enough is Enough|Is there no way that new members would have to "type in the number visible in this box" thing or answer some "skill" testing question to prove that they are human not bots, I can't imagine these people are actually signing up in person. doesn't yahoo offer something like that for it's groups? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Alex and I don't monitor this site every hour of the day. I may go many days without internet access. Just ignore the spammers, and I'll do what I can, when I can, to clean it up. Don't open up their messages, or even acknowledge them. > I've tried in the past to get rid of these spammers, but they seem to keep coming back. I'll do what I can , but I'm not supergeek. If I accidentally blocked members , just log in again under another name and email address. That's what they do. Don't give them the power to do more harm, by letting them discourage you from tapping into this source of info. That is empowering them. > This remains one of the best sites on the net, with some highly qualified contributors. Contributors don't owe us anything so we should be grateful for the expertise they offer. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Dale, > > > > Your point appreciated, but it's all pretty bloody pathetic isn't it? > > > > Seems there are a lot of people who have a bloody caniption everytime they see their own, or anyone elses, shaddow. (when in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!) > > > > Terrorism? I had a cup of coffee this moring. Does that make me a terrorist? > > > > At this rate, I wonder how long it is going to take before america implodes? > > > > It's obviously not you who makes these bloody moronic laws, but what about the rest of us, just suck it up? > > > > > > > > Posted by: "Dale J. Robertson" dale@ djrobertson_99 > > Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:56 pm (PST) > > > > > > You should know that spammers NEVER use their own email address. They > > hijack (it's known as spoofing) someone else's address. You can be > > fairly certain that any email you send to the "from" or "reply-to" > > address of a spam email message will be clogging the email system of an > > innocent party. > > You should also be aware that what you are advocating is classified as a > > cyber-crime in many jurisdictions. As a law abiding netizen, not making > > any attempt to conceal your identity, you would be way easier to track > > down and might be an appealing target for a lazy cyber-crime fighter > > looking to meet his/her quota! > > As frustrating as all this is, the best course of action is still "burn > > before reading" i.e. delete without opening > > Dale J. Robertson > > > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > > > > > > Is there any way of either/both barring these jerks or setting > > > something up so that everyone can send them, automatically (have it > > > run all night or something) 50,0000,00000, 0000 emails from each and > > > every one of us telling them to fuck off & clogging up their system? > > > > > > Asking them politely is not going to stop them, but to completely shut > > > them down by drowning them in volume may. > > > > > > If we could do this as a standard, then when we get a spammer it does > > > not even have to be disgussed, just send them a zillion emails to clog > > > them up. We have a couple thousand members don't we? > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > > > | 22516|22447|2010-02-11 13:23:13|wild_explorer|Re: Enough is Enough|Ignoring spammers will just encourage them to clog this group. It is a BIG problem on Internet and big business. The best way, is to use group managing tools. Most NEW members just register to have access to the photos and files. Yes, it is inconvenient for new member to be monitored first several messages. But it WILL discourage spammers to post junk - nobody will see it. They will try anyway, and IF they see it went trough, they ALL will be posting junk in this group. It was pointed out already. NEVER open or reply on spam messages. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Just ignore the spammers, and I'll do what I can, when I can, to clean it up. Don't open up their messages, or even acknowledge them. > | 22517|22407|2010-02-11 13:33:36|Helmut Schlager|Re: Hydroformed hull|Thanks fore enlighting (?) me, your imperial measurement isnt easy for the decimal world,,, anyway: if i understand hydroforming right: they weld two steelplates flat on flat together and then pumping between the sheets water with about domestic household pressure? what I didnt understand: how do they weld the sheets together?- there is somethere the speech of tubes - do they part them at one side and put the steelplates between the splited tube to weld each plate to one side of the tube???? -why? or do i understand something wrong? A least question: you talk about a dinghi build with that method "hydroforming" : is there anywhere a detailed describtion incl plateforms? any photos, scetches,... regards helmut ps: not so sorry for typos - english isnt my mothertounge (?) - and no, I dont wont see your answers in german - but simple english would help... Gary H. Lucas schrieb: > > > The term gauge goes back to the way steel sheets are made, by rolling > them > thinner and thinner. So 16 gauge sheet took sixteen passes through a > particular type of rolling mill. an 8 gauge sheet was rolled less and was > therefore thicker. The fact that different mills needed a different > number > of passes meant that there are a number of gauge specifications out > there. > However 16 gauge is generally about 0.060" thick or 1.5 mm. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Helmut Schlager" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:04 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hydroformed hull > > > hello group > > > > please could someone explain what 16 gauge steel means: what thickness > > (I gess?) is gauge, what relationship to other imerial measurement > exists? > > I also have seen that wire is sometime measured in "gauge"... > > > > does it mean 1/16 inch? > > but than I dont understand that 8 gauge ist 3 times as thick?? > > > > and: is somebody willing to explain the hydroforming in very simple > > english I`m not sure I understand it in the right manner. > > > > thanks in advance > > helmut > > > > > > RICHARD KOKEMOOR schrieb: > >> > >> > >> This is a fascinating but possibly impractical idea for building any > >> vessel much larger than a dinghy, but apparently did work well for > >> that. The author's dinghy was 40" beam and made of 16 gauge steel. > >> His proposed yacht (actually yachts, the vessels have to be formed in > >> pairs) was to be of 8 gauge steel (about three times as thick) and > >> about three times that beam. The pressure required to form it, by his > >> calculation P = 40,000*t*2/B, would therefore be similar to that > >> required for the dinghy, a little over 100 psi. That's doable. > >> But the hulls while being formed would have to contain water twice the > >> volume of one hull up to the sheer line (not just the LWL), which for > >> the two hulls would be at least six times the targeted displacement of > >> one of the yachts. The pressure on the lowermost hull from the > >> contained water would be not much greater than the applied pressure of > >> 100 psi, since the pressure at the bottom of a column of water 20 feet > >> high is only about 9 psi. But the contained water would weigh at > >> least 60,000 lb, plus the 20,000 or so pounds of steel. A substantial > >> supporting framework would be required. Not to mention a provision > >> for releasing the water gradually, and from a bottom fitting. > >> But could not the same thing be done with air pressure? The 100 psi > >> range is obtainable with even homeowner units, if you just let them > >> run long enough. Pressure is pressure; it should not matter whether > >> the fluid is air, water or hydraulic fluid. If the structure leaks air > >> somewhere, it would be easily detected with soapy water and remedied > >> by welding. > >> Probably the biggest drawback of the method, at least for amateur > >> application, is that it requires that two vessels be built > >> simultaneously. That is, you must find two people who want to (and > >> can) build the same vessel at the same time in the same place. I > >> think when that happens, if ever, they are already married and need > >> only one boat! > >> But security-minded cruising authors recommend carrying two dinghies, > >> the second for the use of anyone who might be left aboard while the > >> first is in use, or for giving the appearance of the yacht being > >> occupied even when no one is aboard. Remember also that two dinghies > >> made by this method would nest. If someone takes on this project, I > >> would surely like to see the pictures, and I would dearly like to know > >> what became of the author's intention "to build two such boats for the > >> 1947-48 season." > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22518|22483|2010-02-11 13:53:03|wild_explorer|Inventing the plow??? (wasRe: ANCHOR FROM BRASIL ---- NO REALLY IT'|I am just curious... They claim it is PATENTED. How can someone possibly patent design which was used for centuries??? As a plow.... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > I just ran across this anyone have any experiance with this kind of anchor looks kinda easy to make much like the Rocna, check out the tempest especially, > >oops... here's the link > > http://www.ancoralatina.com/acolhimento/ingles/description_carateristic/a_better_penetration.html > | 22519|22483|2010-02-11 15:16:25|David Frantz|Re: Inventing the plow??? (wasRe: ANCHOR FROM BRASIL ---- NO REALLY|Many modern patents are simply new spins on prior art. Part of that due to the inability of the patent office completely review ever concept. And partly due to the fact that am old device can be patented again due to the slightest improvement. A century or two ago Stanely did so with their hand planes. One little modification/improvement and you get a new patent. The patent system is far from perfect. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 11, 2010, at 1:51 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > I am just curious... They claim it is PATENTED. How can someone > possibly patent design which was used for centuries??? As a plow.... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > wrote: >> >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: >>> >>> I just ran across this anyone have any experiance with this kind >>> of anchor looks kinda easy to make much like the Rocna, check out >>> the tempest especially, >>> oops... here's the link >> >> http://www.ancoralatina.com/acolhimento/ingles/description_carateristic/a_better_penetration.html >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22520|22520|2010-02-11 22:48:04|Alex Christie|spam settings improved, moderators added|Just to update everyone here quickly on spam-reduction, as I have just a few moments out of my semi-submerged bamboo cage on the Sai Gon river (luckily there is internet in the hut above): I've set the spam filter to "On" (it's a new thing, I think, and we will monitor it to see if it is overzealous or not), and new members are automatically moderated until they prove themselves genuine origamiphiles. Dave and Ben have been promoted as officers in charge of spam recon, search and destroy, so now there are 4 of us that can combat the non-origami incoming. Of course this is the internet, and of course there will always be spam, but now we have more human filters. The odd bit might come through, but I doubt much will from now on. Hope that cleans things up around here! I gotta go back to my semi-submerged bamboo thing now, so catch you later. Alex| 22521|22520|2010-02-11 23:07:09|Paul Wilson|Re: spam settings improved, moderators added|Thanks to and the other volunteers! Cheers, Paul Alex Christie wrote: > > Just to update everyone here quickly on spam-reduction, as I have just > a few moments out of my semi-submerged bamboo cage on the Sai Gon > river (luckily there is internet in the hut above): I've set the spam > filter to "On" (it's a new thing, I think, and we will monitor it to > see if it is overzealous or not), and new members are automatically > moderated until they prove themselves genuine origamiphiles. > > Dave and Ben have been promoted as officers in charge of spam recon, > search and destroy, so now there are 4 of us that can combat the > non-origami incoming. Of course this is the internet, and of course > there will always be spam, but now we have more human filters. The odd > bit might come through, but I doubt much will from now on. > > Hope that cleans things up around here! I gotta go back to my > semi-submerged bamboo thing now, so catch you later. > > Alex > > | 22522|22522|2010-02-12 00:42:00|k`pasa h'en han s`a|ok,I`ll stick,,,,,,,,,,spam settings improved, moderators added|Glad to hear someone can take charge to fight this crap.It gives perverts like me a bad name!!  I joined this group because I want to build and use a sailboat for the rest of my life.I have many useful skills in case you want to help each other in our dreams.  I`m not handy at cyberwars against spam,but if you need a knuckle dragging mouth breathing warrior that leaves no one on the field,contact me.Darkowl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22523|22447|2010-02-12 10:19:40|SHANE ROTHWELL|Enough is Enough|Hi Guys, I figure what Brent & Alex said pretty much covers it. Thanks for your efforts guys! But I'd bet pretty much all I have that the bamboo cage that Alex is referring to is, give or take, about 30, and THE most stunningly beautiful sweet loving considerate .....er, ahhh... bamboo cage you could ever imagine. And it's not cold & rainy either, is it mate? Cheers, Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:15 am (PST) Alex and I don't monitor this site every hour of the day. I may go many days without internet access. Just ignore the spammers, and I'll do what I can, when I can, to clean it up. Don't open up their messages, or even acknowledge them. I've tried in the past to get rid of these spammers, but they seem to keep coming back. I'll do what I can , but I'm not supergeek. If I accidentally blocked members , just log in again under another name and email address. That's what they do. Don't give them the power to do more harm, by letting them discourage you from tapping into this source of info. That is empowering them. This remains one of the best sites on the net, with some highly qualified contributors. Contributors don't owe us anything so we should be grateful for the expertise they offer. __________________________________________________________________ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 22524|22356|2010-02-12 20:14:54|Carl Volkwein|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|I have a boat design [not one of Brents} that calls for a balast of" concreat and scrap steel" and was wondering about wheel weights and concreat instead, would there be a problem with the steel and lead together? carlvolkwein --- On Fri, 2/5/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead Density Smackdown!! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 5, 2010, 3:08 PM   There is nothing wrong with cutting a 10 inch round hole in the hull, below the waterline so distortion is not a problem, plate and passing the lead etc thru, as well as extension cords cutting hoses stinger cable , etc, then welding it up afterwards. Leave it open as long as possible , only closing it when its painting and foaming time. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Well you won't get to do it again unfortunately, so I would suggest getting a gym membership at the Lewis Centre just down the street from your boat, it's a good place for showers too. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > LOL I did it the high tech way too, Haidan. A cheapo bathroom scale from Walmart. Weighed everything up and made 2 equal piles. Unfortunately for me I didn't have a tractor but I did have BOTh keels welded on already, so I humped it up a flight of stairs and back down into the hull. :( > > > > I bought my lead (well most of it) in the form of a keel, from Mickey. The rest I got from scrap yards and some wheel weights from Bev's work place. The lead from the keel was very clean and most of it I just placed in the keels and melted lead around it with a tiger torch. I must've moved that lead at least 2 or 3 times. Once from Mickey's yard, we eventually found a friend with a picker truck. Then I cut the keel and hand bombed it into a rental truck (1/2 ton no less ) and ferried it to the Island. I thought for sure we were going to blow a tire or worse. > > > > Then I unloaded it at Yellowpoint at some jerks place.(names omitted to protect the guiltuy) :) Then moved it again to Duncan and finally into the boat. Who neeeds a gym when you're building a boat? lol > > Rowland > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22525|22490|2010-02-13 04:22:24|kingsknight4life|Re: Very, Very Bad idea was Enough is enough|I know on other groups they usually send you an email after you register and that email has a link requiring verification by the registerer (sp?). I heard that this will stop them too as they don't have the time to respond to verification links before posting? anyone famiilair with this?" Rowland| 22526|22356|2010-02-13 04:39:38|kingsknight4life|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > I have a boat design [not one of Brents} that calls for a balast of" concreat and scrap steel" and was wondering about wheel weights and concreat instead, would there be a problem with the steel and lead together? > carlvolkwein > > Carl, I think there might be a problem if you just try mixing lead and say, steel punchings for example. Doing this would cause the steel to float on the lead but you could melt in the lead that you have and then top it off with steel mixed in concrete or epoxy and maybe even capped off with a steel plate. You may even be able to put in steel then very slowly melt the lead in around it, only "pouring" in a little at a time so you don't float the steel? Rowland| 22527|22490|2010-02-13 07:30:49|scott|Re: Very, Very Bad idea was Enough is enough|This is one of the reasons that I think yahoo groups might be going away in the future. Yahoo hasn't spent the time or money to upgrade yahoo groups in a long time while they have done so for email and messaging and the my yahoo featurs as well as yahooo 360. Unless they do some work on it soon I would start to lay money on it being a discontinued feature in the next year or so. There are a lot of features that yahoo groups lacks compared to a modern forum. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > I know on other groups they usually send you an email after you register and that email has a link requiring verification by the registerer (sp?). I heard that this will stop them too as they don't have the time to respond to verification links before posting? anyone famiilair with this?" > Rowland > | 22528|22356|2010-02-13 09:22:10|Doug Jackson|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|Howdy I think the plan is to not melt the wheel weights down but to use them as the aggregate in concrete. I've picked up some piles of wheel weights that were left outdoors for years and at worst, there was a little surface rust. If you were to melt down the weights and remove the clips you will get about 610 pounds / cubic foot. You'll loose 20% of the weight from the metal clips. Concrete is about 150 pounds / cubic foot. A 5 gallon bucket of wheel weights is about 170 pounds, so 5 / 7.5 gal per cu ft x 170 = 113 pounds / cubic foot. Maybe you can get 1/2 a cubic foot of concrete packed into the voids? That would bring the total to 113 + 75 = 188 pounds / cubic foot? We are getting our wheel weights for about $23 cents a pound including expenses, so unless your getting them for less, you might consider melting the weights down, and putting the 610 pound / cubic foot lead in the bottom of the keel/s and then iron and concrete on top of the lead. My numbers are only estimates and guesstimates, so I'd suggest you do a test sample and see what you actually get. If you'd like to see more of the mess I've made with lead, here is the site: http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm Best of Luck Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ________________________________ From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 13, 2010 3:38:48 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead Density Smackdown!! --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > I have a boat design [not one of Brents} that calls for a balast of" concreat and scrap steel" and was wondering about wheel weights and concreat instead, would there be a problem with the steel and lead together? > carlvolkwein > > Carl, I think there might be a problem if you just try mixing lead and say, steel punchings for example. Doing this would cause the steel to float on the lead but you could melt in the lead that you have and then top it off with steel mixed in concrete or epoxy and maybe even capped off with a steel plate. You may even be able to put in steel then very slowly melt the lead in around it, only "pouring" in a little at a time so you don't float the steel? Rowland | 22529|22356|2010-02-13 13:35:06|brentswain38|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|One 36 footer used pulp mill grinder plates , cast iron with lead melted around them. It was far cheaper than all lead, and worked out well for the single keeler, which as lots of room in the keel, but I wouldn't recommend it for twin keels. I still think you'd be better off to melt your lead. You can do it over a wood fire. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Howdy > > I think the plan is to not melt the wheel weights down but to use them as the aggregate in concrete. I've picked up some piles of wheel weights that were left outdoors for years and at worst, there was a little surface rust. If you were to melt down the weights and remove the clips you will get about 610 pounds / cubic foot. You'll loose 20% of the weight from the metal clips. Concrete is about 150 pounds / cubic foot. A 5 gallon bucket of wheel weights is about 170 pounds, so 5 / 7.5 gal per cu ft x 170 = 113 pounds / cubic foot. Maybe you can get 1/2 a cubic foot of concrete packed into the voids? That would bring the total to 113 + 75 = 188 pounds / cubic foot? > > We are getting our wheel weights for about $23 cents a pound including expenses, so unless your getting them for less, you might consider melting the weights down, and putting the 610 pound / cubic foot lead in the bottom of the keel/s and then iron and concrete on top of the lead. > > My numbers are only estimates and guesstimates, so I'd suggest you do a test sample and see what you actually get. > > If you'd like to see more of the mess I've made with lead, here is the site: > http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm > > Best of Luck > Doug > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine > Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: kingsknight4life > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, February 13, 2010 3:38:48 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead Density Smackdown!! > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > > > I have a boat design [not one of Brents} that calls for a balast of" concreat and scrap steel" and was wondering about wheel weights and concreat instead, would there be a problem with the steel and lead together? > > carlvolkwein > > > > > Carl, > I think there might be a problem if you just try mixing lead and say, steel punchings for example. Doing this would cause the steel to float on the lead but you could melt in the lead that you have and then top it off with steel mixed in concrete or epoxy and maybe even capped off with a steel plate. You may even be able to put in steel then very slowly melt the lead in around it, only "pouring" in a little at a time so you don't float the steel? > Rowland > | 22530|22356|2010-02-13 13:40:58|brentswain38|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|On that boat, the cast iron grinder plates were 50% of the total weight, the lead the rest. We welded an airtight plate over it to keep oxygen, moisture, and thus corrosion, out of the mix. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > One 36 footer used pulp mill grinder plates , cast iron with lead melted around them. It was far cheaper than all lead, and worked out well for the single keeler, which as lots of room in the keel, but I wouldn't recommend it for twin keels. > I still think you'd be better off to melt your lead. You can do it over a wood fire. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > Howdy > > > > I think the plan is to not melt the wheel weights down but to use them as the aggregate in concrete. I've picked up some piles of wheel weights that were left outdoors for years and at worst, there was a little surface rust. If you were to melt down the weights and remove the clips you will get about 610 pounds / cubic foot. You'll loose 20% of the weight from the metal clips. Concrete is about 150 pounds / cubic foot. A 5 gallon bucket of wheel weights is about 170 pounds, so 5 / 7.5 gal per cu ft x 170 = 113 pounds / cubic foot. Maybe you can get 1/2 a cubic foot of concrete packed into the voids? That would bring the total to 113 + 75 = 188 pounds / cubic foot? > > > > We are getting our wheel weights for about $23 cents a pound including expenses, so unless your getting them for less, you might consider melting the weights down, and putting the 610 pound / cubic foot lead in the bottom of the keel/s and then iron and concrete on top of the lead. > > > > My numbers are only estimates and guesstimates, so I'd suggest you do a test sample and see what you actually get. > > > > If you'd like to see more of the mess I've made with lead, here is the site: > > http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm > > > > Best of Luck > > Doug > > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine > > Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kingsknight4life > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, February 13, 2010 3:38:48 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead Density Smackdown!! > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > > > > > I have a boat design [not one of Brents} that calls for a balast of" concreat and scrap steel" and was wondering about wheel weights and concreat instead, would there be a problem with the steel and lead together? > > > carlvolkwein > > > > > > > > Carl, > > I think there might be a problem if you just try mixing lead and say, steel punchings for example. Doing this would cause the steel to float on the lead but you could melt in the lead that you have and then top it off with steel mixed in concrete or epoxy and maybe even capped off with a steel plate. You may even be able to put in steel then very slowly melt the lead in around it, only "pouring" in a little at a time so you don't float the steel? > > Rowland > > > | 22531|22356|2010-02-13 15:30:10|theboilerflue|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|I can't imagine there's any problem with galvanic corrosion between metals as long as they are sealed, using concrete to seal them might not work since it's quite porous but if you welded a plate over to seal it or epoxied it. Maybe paint your keel first too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Howdy > > I think the plan is to not melt the wheel weights down but to use them as the aggregate in concrete. I've picked up some piles of wheel weights that were left outdoors for years and at worst, there was a little surface rust. If you were to melt down the weights and remove the clips you will get about 610 pounds / cubic foot. You'll loose 20% of the weight from the metal clips. Concrete is about 150 pounds / cubic foot. A 5 gallon bucket of wheel weights is about 170 pounds, so 5 / 7.5 gal per cu ft x 170 = 113 pounds / cubic foot. Maybe you can get 1/2 a cubic foot of concrete packed into the voids? That would bring the total to 113 + 75 = 188 pounds / cubic foot? > > We are getting our wheel weights for about $23 cents a pound including expenses, so unless your getting them for less, you might consider melting the weights down, and putting the 610 pound / cubic foot lead in the bottom of the keel/s and then iron and concrete on top of the lead. > > My numbers are only estimates and guesstimates, so I'd suggest you do a test sample and see what you actually get. > > If you'd like to see more of the mess I've made with lead, here is the site: > http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm > > Best of Luck > Doug > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine > Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: kingsknight4life > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, February 13, 2010 3:38:48 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead Density Smackdown!! > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > > > I have a boat design [not one of Brents} that calls for a balast of" concreat and scrap steel" and was wondering about wheel weights and concreat instead, would there be a problem with the steel and lead together? > > carlvolkwein > > > > > Carl, > I think there might be a problem if you just try mixing lead and say, steel punchings for example. Doing this would cause the steel to float on the lead but you could melt in the lead that you have and then top it off with steel mixed in concrete or epoxy and maybe even capped off with a steel plate. You may even be able to put in steel then very slowly melt the lead in around it, only "pouring" in a little at a time so you don't float the steel? > Rowland > | 22532|22356|2010-02-13 15:55:30|Paul Wilson|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|I don't think you are off with your calculations. My lead wheel weights filled the shop floor before they were melted. There are so many gaps between the pieces. For a days work, it is worth melting the lead and making it as concentrated a volume as possible. Your ballast ends up being lower and your tanks in the keel end up being larger. Having larger tanks in the keel helps keep the weight low down and frees up more space. Doug, you have a fantastic website. Cheers, Paul Doug Jackson wrote: > > > Howdy > > I think the plan is to not melt the wheel weights down but to use them > as the aggregate in concrete. I've picked up some piles of wheel > weights that were left outdoors for years and at worst, there was a > little surface rust. If you were to melt down the weights and remove > the clips you will get about 610 pounds / cubic foot. You'll loose 20% > of the weight from the metal clips. Concrete is about 150 pounds / > cubic foot. A 5 gallon bucket of wheel weights is about 170 pounds, so > 5 / 7.5 gal per cu ft x 170 = 113 pounds / cubic foot. Maybe you can > get 1/2 a cubic foot of concrete packed into the voids? That would > bring the total to 113 + 75 = 188 pounds / cubic foot? > > We are getting our wheel weights for about $23 cents a pound including > expenses, so unless your getting them for less, you might consider > melting the weights down, and putting the 610 pound / cubic foot lead > in the bottom of the keel/s and then iron and concrete on top of the lead. > > My numbers are only estimates and guesstimates, so I'd suggest you do > a test sample and see what you actually get. > > If you'd like to see more of the mess I've made with lead, here is the > site: > http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm > > > Best of Luck > Doug > " > > > | 22533|22356|2010-02-13 23:19:50|ric|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: >, using concrete to seal them might not work since it's quite porous. To the contrary, concrete if used correctly is quite water proof, as demonstrated by the plethora of concrete products that are made to hold water. The secret is in the mix. Sand ; must be washed to be free of all organic matter and free of clay. Also dry (containing no moisture, or it's water content known).Cement: best to use one with a 20% pozolan content. (that is also known as fly ash).Water; The mix is, Sand 2 Cement 1 Water.46 This will give a dry crumbly mix so a plasticiser is needed, a bit of detergent will suffice. Curing is important. If at room temperature, free water needs to be available for 28 days for full crystal growth to occur. If you have a steam generator 48 hrs will give you 98% of it's max possible strength. the other2% will accrue over many years. As the coefficient of steel and concrete are the same the two are quite compatible. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22534|22356|2010-02-14 00:53:15|theboilerflue|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|Yes concrete will hold water in, I'm not saying water will ever flow through it, but every bare piece of concrete I've ever seen will absorb a bit of water, that is why the sell sealers for it, and also why it cracks in the winter. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > >, using concrete to seal them might not work since it's quite porous. > > > To the contrary, concrete if used correctly is quite water proof, as > demonstrated by the plethora of concrete products that are made to hold > water. The secret is in the mix. > > Sand ; must be washed to be free of all organic matter and free of clay. > Also dry (containing no moisture, or it's water content known).Cement: > best to use one with a 20% pozolan content. (that is also known as fly > ash).Water; > The mix is, Sand 2 Cement 1 Water.46 > This will give a dry crumbly mix so a plasticiser is needed, a bit of > detergent will suffice. > Curing is important. If at room temperature, free water needs to be > available for 28 days for full crystal growth to occur. If you have a > steam generator 48 hrs will give you 98% of it's max possible strength. > the other2% will accrue over many years. > As the coefficient of steel and concrete are the same the two are quite > compatible. > . > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22535|22356|2010-02-14 04:26:12|ric|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|To the contrary,, concrete made to the specs I have given will be TOTALLY water proof with no shrinkage cracks and will therefore not have ice form within it splitting it apart. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Yes concrete will hold water in, I'm not saying water will ever flow through it, but every bare piece of concrete I've ever seen will absorb a bit of water, that is why the sell sealers for it, and also why it cracks in the winter. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > >, using concrete to seal them might not work since it's quite porous. > > > > > > To the contrary, concrete if used correctly is quite water proof, as > > demonstrated by the plethora of concrete products that are made to hold > > water. The secret is in the mix. > > > > Sand ; must be washed to be free of all organic matter and free of clay. > > Also dry (containing no moisture, or it's water content known).Cement: > > best to use one with a 20% pozolan content. (that is also known as fly > > ash).Water; > > The mix is, Sand 2 Cement 1 Water.46 > > This will give a dry crumbly mix so a plasticiser is needed, a bit of > > detergent will suffice. > > Curing is important. If at room temperature, free water needs to be > > available for 28 days for full crystal growth to occur. If you have a > > steam generator 48 hrs will give you 98% of it's max possible strength. > > the other2% will accrue over many years. > > As the coefficient of steel and concrete are the same the two are quite > > compatible. > > . > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22536|22536|2010-02-14 07:34:19|Jonathan Stevens|Eighteen hatches|Well I ordered some 5052 alloy, cut out the hatches and took them to the college where I've been topping up my welding skills. Put the first one on the press brake and it seemed a bit stiffer than I imagined; looked closely at the markings and it said 5083. I reset the thing so that the fold wasn't so tight and carried on. This of course meant that the corners were not now close so I dressed them in with a dolly and hide mallet. I had a go at TIG last week (for the first time) and found it remarkably like Oxy-acetylene which I learned at school except for the foot pedal. Being able to adjust the intensity of the "flame" whilst welding is great! Got the TIG going again and got the welding all done, just, before the course finished. A bit of a challenge getting every joint in such a place I could weld it easily; I had to stand up for some of the corners which gave an extra challenge controlling the foot pedal. Ran the torch over the folded edges where cracks were showing in the hope they won't now spread. Just need to find the time to polish up the welds so they look good enough to show off. I would love to have a TIG welder with AC because it is such fun; if I could afford one, I'd still have to hire the bottle though. It costs me enough each year for my oxy set without another one to add to the list. Cheaper to sign up for another class and save all the TIG work for that. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22537|22356|2010-02-14 10:44:40|Doug Jackson|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|Thank you Paul, we're glad you like the web site and hope others will find it useful. Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 13, 2010 2:55:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lead Density Smackdown!! I don't think you are off with your calculations. My lead wheel weights filled the shop floor before they were melted. There are so many gaps between the pieces. For a days work, it is worth melting the lead and making it as concentrated a volume as possible. Your ballast ends up being lower and your tanks in the keel end up being larger. Having larger tanks in the keel helps keep the weight low down and frees up more space. Doug, you have a fantastic website. Cheers, Paul Doug Jackson wrote: > > > Howdy > > I think the plan is to not melt the wheel weights down but to use them > as the aggregate in concrete. I've picked up some piles of wheel > weights that were left outdoors for years and at worst, there was a > little surface rust. If you were to melt down the weights and remove > the clips you will get about 610 pounds / cubic foot. You'll loose 20% > of the weight from the metal clips. Concrete is about 150 pounds / > cubic foot. A 5 gallon bucket of wheel weights is about 170 pounds, so > 5 / 7.5 gal per cu ft x 170 = 113 pounds / cubic foot. Maybe you can > get 1/2 a cubic foot of concrete packed into the voids? That would > bring the total to 113 + 75 = 188 pounds / cubic foot? > > We are getting our wheel weights for about $23 cents a pound including > expenses, so unless your getting them for less, you might consider > melting the weights down, and putting the 610 pound / cubic foot lead > in the bottom of the keel/s and then iron and concrete on top of the lead. > > My numbers are only estimates and guesstimates, so I'd suggest you do > a test sample and see what you actually get. > > If you'd like to see more of the mess I've made with lead, here is the > site: > http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm > > > Best of Luck > Doug > " > > > | 22538|22356|2010-02-14 14:33:03|brentswain38|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|Going for lead, instead of concrete and steel, will drastically increase available space for tankage in your keel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > I have a boat design [not one of Brents} that calls for a balast of" concreat and scrap steel" and was wondering about wheel weights and concreat instead, would there be a problem with the steel and lead together? > carlvolkwein > > --- On Fri, 2/5/10, brentswain38 wrote: > > From: brentswain38 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead Density Smackdown!! > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, February 5, 2010, 3:08 PM > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > There is nothing wrong with cutting a 10 inch round hole in the hull, below the waterline so distortion is not a problem, plate and passing the lead etc thru, as well as extension cords cutting hoses stinger cable , etc, then welding it up afterwards. Leave it open as long as possible , only closing it when its painting and foaming time. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > > > Well you won't get to do it again unfortunately, so I would suggest getting a gym membership at the Lewis Centre just down the street from your boat, it's a good place for showers too. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > > > > > LOL I did it the high tech way too, Haidan. A cheapo bathroom scale from Walmart. Weighed everything up and made 2 equal piles. Unfortunately for me I didn't have a tractor but I did have BOTh keels welded on already, so I humped it up a flight of stairs and back down into the hull. :( > > > > > > > > I bought my lead (well most of it) in the form of a keel, from Mickey. The rest I got from scrap yards and some wheel weights from Bev's work place. The lead from the keel was very clean and most of it I just placed in the keels and melted lead around it with a tiger torch. I must've moved that lead at least 2 or 3 times. Once from Mickey's yard, we eventually found a friend with a picker truck. Then I cut the keel and hand bombed it into a rental truck (1/2 ton no less ) and ferried it to the Island. I thought for sure we were going to blow a tire or worse. > > > > > > > > Then I unloaded it at Yellowpoint at some jerks place.(names omitted to protect the guiltuy) :) Then moved it again to Duncan and finally into the boat. Who neeeds a gym when you're building a boat? lol > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22539|22356|2010-02-14 18:40:30|James Pronk|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!| Edward Stone On you boat "Fly" how much room is there above the lead  on your bilge keels with the wings? Are you using the space for tanks? James __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22540|22490|2010-02-15 13:14:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: Very, Very Bad idea was Enough is enough|On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 12:29:35PM -0000, scott wrote: > This is one of the reasons that I think yahoo groups might be going > away in the future. Yahoo hasn't spent the time or money to upgrade > yahoo groups in a long time while they have done so for email and > messaging and the my yahoo featurs as well as yahooo 360. Unless they > do some work on it soon I would start to lay money on it being a > discontinued feature in the next year or so. There are a lot of > features that yahoo groups lacks compared to a modern forum. Scott is right on the dot with this. Simple authentication features like CAPTCHA (pictures of letters on numbers, intended to prevent account creation by bots and such) and challenge-response schemes, such as verification emails, have been around for ages and work pretty well for decreasing the amount of spam in groups - but Yahoo either doesn't bother implementing them or does so after a long, long time. This supports the point that I made in an earlier email: people who use Yahoo's groups - us, that is - are not Yahoo's customers; we're the *product*. Yahoo sells the data that they mine from group interaction, ad response, etc. to their real customers, or use it themselves for more effective ad campaigns - and spend the minimum amount of money and effort necessary to keep the producers (again, that's us) coming back. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22541|22536|2010-02-15 14:05:43|theboilerflue|Re: Eighteen hatches|TIG is lot's of fun and teaches you a lot about welding, I learned to weld first with an oxy-acetylene kit and yeah found TIG to be basically the same. Aluminium TIG is a little different I never figured that one out, and prefer the speeds of a pound gun anyway. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Well I ordered some 5052 alloy, cut out the hatches and took them to the > college where I've been topping up my welding skills. Put the first one on > the press brake and it seemed a bit stiffer than I imagined; looked closely > at the markings and it said 5083. I reset the thing so that the fold wasn't > so tight and carried on. This of course meant that the corners were not now > close so I dressed them in with a dolly and hide mallet. I had a go at TIG > last week (for the first time) and found it remarkably like Oxy-acetylene > which I learned at school except for the foot pedal. Being able to adjust > the intensity of the "flame" whilst welding is great! Got the TIG going > again and got the welding all done, just, before the course finished. A bit > of a challenge getting every joint in such a place I could weld it easily; I > had to stand up for some of the corners which gave an extra challenge > controlling the foot pedal. Ran the torch over the folded edges where cracks > were showing in the hope they won't now spread. Just need to find the time > to polish up the welds so they look good enough to show off. > > I would love to have a TIG welder with AC because it is such fun; if I could > afford one, I'd still have to hire the bottle though. It costs me enough > each year for my oxy set without another one to add to the list. Cheaper to > sign up for another class and save all the TIG work for that. > > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22543|22418|2010-02-16 09:19:14|martin demers|Re: Stick weld or Mig /welding from under|Hi Aaron, I dont know what electrodes I will be using to weld from underneath, now I am using 6013 or 6011 for regular flat welding. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: akenai@... Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:56:22 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig /welding from under Think of welding flat while welding overhead, like looking in a mirror sometime things are backwards push insted of pull. always try to start away from your self and weld to yourself as the rod gets shorter your arm get longer. try that the other way and both get shorter. What welding electrode are you using Low hydrogen E7018 or celulose E6010 --- On Wed, 2/10/10, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig /welding from under To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 12:29 AM Hi, Could someone with the experience tell me the method to stick weld from underneath a plate. I have to close the opening made for a motor well in the rear of my boat with a 1/8 in. plate. I was thinking of welding it inside since I was never very successfull welding by under unless I learn the right method. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 03:38:12 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here Craig Are you using a whip as you weld up? It is a very small stroke up then back down again. It is only about 5mm long. Your weld pool cools slightly as you go up then you go back down again into the bottom of the weld pool to fill it, then up again, just a little higher, and just keep going. Your slag will be drooping, it is what you call grapes, your weld should be good under this. James --- On Mon, 2/8/10, hotelechovictorkilo wrote: From: hotelechovictorkilo Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, February 8, 2010, 2:51 AM HI Haydn The OLD CIG tradesmen ARC boxes are also great welders. I have 15 meter long welding cables on mine! Its just ohms law, minimise voltage drop and you can make the cables as long as you want. I would crimp and solder all the cable and connections. The voltage drop on my cables is exactly the same with short leads and long leads. Another old welder if you can find it is the old Lincoln Bullet. Its a huge DC welder probably 3 phase only. Way too big for most people so they sell very cheaply. The only thing that I cant seem to get right is VERTICAL UP WELDING. Anyone have any tricks for doing this right? I used the right rods for vertical up, however you need a lot of practice! I helped someone else build a steel hull and I decided just to use vertical down rather than vertical up. I used used quality 3 pass welds vertically down. Vertically up is supposed to be stronger for what reason I dont really know. Craig --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > Hi David > Well the best� stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac motor driving a dc� generator� welder she was a big bad girl but wow she could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. > I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one,� I do use a mig at work� but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be� buying � on a small� stick dc inverter� tig combo� welder which will do the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board� � ( when Its finished� )� just in case. one of Brents� yatchs� T bones me out at sea Ha Ha > Haydn� > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: David Frantz > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here > > � > Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! > It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately > that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I > pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money > for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. > > As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. > It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house > wiring can't handle much more. > > I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. > Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required > two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural > steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. > Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature > welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more > importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the > additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. > > If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing > if you have other plans for the welder. > > On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend > freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling > TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Dave > > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > > asked before on here > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > > using MIG implies. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 > .. au > >> wrote: > > > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- > >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ > >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > >> 10 meter leads > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no > >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a > >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead > >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we > >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > >>> > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > >>>> welding > >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger .yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer� 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________ Voici T�l�phone WindowsMD. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9708128 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22544|22544|2010-02-16 09:23:14|martin demers|replating 1/8 steel with 3/16 plate|HI, I was trying to know if I could replate my steel classic(37ft) wich is made of 1/8 corteen steel on frames with 3/16 steel going section by section without distortion. Thanks, Martin. _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22545|22418|2010-02-16 12:28:24|brentswain38|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|Iprefer stick, 1/8th 6011 for uphand and overhead, 1/8th 7024 for flat horizontal welds. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig welding > Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > | 22546|22418|2010-02-16 12:56:00|James Pronk|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|I was going to try some 6013 put I don't know if it would be the best on preprimed steel? James --- On Tue, 2/16/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 12:25 PM   Iprefer stick, 1/8th 6011 for uphand and overhead, 1/8th 7024 for flat horizontal welds. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig welding > Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22547|22418|2010-02-16 14:00:44|Aaron Williams|Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here|James   6013 is best used on AC machines 7018 is the basic counter part for DC reverse polarity all position vertical up only ( down will get most people in trouble) 7024 DC reverse polarity is best for flat welding  no vertical 6011 AC and 6010 DC reverse polarity. all position vertical up or down   Try each. I was suprised to find 7018 worked best for most of my weld on the primed metal, even after cleaning of the zink primer. Aaron    --- On Tue, 2/16/10, James Pronk wrote: From: James Pronk Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 8:55 AM   I was going to try some 6013 put I don't know if it would be the best on preprimed steel? James --- On Tue, 2/16/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Received: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 12:25 PM   Iprefer stick, 1/8th 6011 for uphand and overhead, 1/8th 7024 for flat horizontal welds. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig welding > Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr com/gift/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22548|22418|2010-02-16 14:02:45|Aaron Williams|Re: Stick weld or Mig /welding from under|ether one will work for overhead welding Just take a little practice. Vertical up is the hardest do to the thickness of the material keep the heat up and only go half the rod length at a time. --- On Tue, 2/16/10, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig /welding from under To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 5:18 AM   Hi Aaron, I dont know what electrodes I will be using to weld from underneath, now I am using 6013 or 6011 for regular flat welding. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: akenai@... Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:56:22 -0800 Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig /welding from under                         Think of welding flat while welding overhead, like looking in a mirror sometime things are backwards push insted of pull. always try to start away from your self and weld to yourself as the rod gets shorter your arm get longer. try that the other way and both get shorter. What welding electrode are you using Low hydrogen E7018 or celulose E6010 --- On Wed, 2/10/10, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig /welding from under To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 12:29 AM Hi, Could someone with the experience tell me the method to stick weld from underneath a plate. I have to close the opening made for a motor well in the rear of my boat with a 1/8 in. plate. I was thinking of welding it  inside since I was never very successfull welding  by under unless I learn the right method. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: jpronk1@... Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 03:38:12 -0800 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here                         Craig Are you using a whip as you weld up? It is a very small stroke up then back down again. It is only about 5mm long. Your weld pool cools slightly as you go up then you go back down again into the bottom of the weld pool to fill it, then up again, just a little higher, and just keep going. Your slag will be drooping, it is what you call grapes, your weld should be good under this. James --- On Mon, 2/8/10, hotelechovictorkilo wrote: From: hotelechovictorkilo Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, February 8, 2010, 2:51 AM   HI Haydn The OLD CIG tradesmen ARC boxes are also great welders. I have 15 meter long welding cables on mine! Its just ohms law, minimise voltage drop and you can make the cables as long as you want. I would crimp and solder all the cable and connections. The voltage drop on my cables is exactly the same with short leads and long leads. Another old welder if you can find it is the old Lincoln Bullet. Its a huge DC welder probably 3 phase only. Way too big for most people so they sell very cheaply. The only thing that I cant seem to get right is VERTICAL UP WELDING. Anyone have any tricks for doing this right? I used the right rods for vertical up, however you need a lot of practice! I helped someone else build a steel hull and I decided just to use vertical down rather than vertical up. I used used quality 3 pass welds vertically down. Vertically up is supposed to be stronger for what reason I dont really know. Craig --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > Hi David > Well the best stick welder I ever used was an old lincon it had a ac motor driving a dc generator welder she was a big bad girl but wow she could lay the nicest weld you could ever see. > I havent got a welder at the moment and will need one,  I do use a mig at work  but I wont be building it there so wanted an opinion , So I will be buying  on a small  stick dc inverter tig combo  welder which will do the job and hopfully some thing that I could leave on board  ( when Its finished ) just in case. one of Brents  yatchs T bones me out at sea Ha Ha > Haydn > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: David Frantz > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > Sent: Mon, 8 February, 2010 3:45:52 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been asked before on here > >   > Buying toys err tools is a problem I've suffered from all my life! > It is something I inherited from my father for sure. Unfortunately > that is a lot of money out of the pocket over the years. So when I > pointed out that a buzz box would work it was to save somebody money > for the boat and as an antidote to the tool buying bug. > > As to a welder I currently have at home a MIG with a 175 amp rating. > It is just a small Lincoln SP 175 which I own simply because my house > wiring can't handle much more. > > I use to use a giant of a MIG welder at a place I use to work. > Forgot the maufactures name but it was a huge green thing and required > two guys to easily move. It was fully capable of welding structural > steel. So I have a good idea what a MIG welder can be capable of. > Such welders are not cheap though. For a one off build by an amature > welder I see buying a MIG for the project as a waste of time and more > importantly a waste of money. The waste of time is due to the > additional time to learn to reliable produce safe welds. > > If you have a bad tool habit that is a different story. Same thing > if you have other plans for the welder. > > On top of all of this I'm of the opinion that if you want to spend > freely you would be better off with a welder also capable of handling > TIG. That to do stainless bright work and fine detail. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@ mac.com > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Dave > > I think someone trying to justify buying a new TOY to play with... > > > > Have you looked at the Millermatic 211 110/220v portable wire > > machine? I could not resist getting one for myself I have it set up > > with E71TGS .035 flux core wire. 220V still has a low duty cycle but > > I figured it would work real well for welding on the furring strip > > tabs and any seal welding I feel must be done. It's to small of a > > machine for .045 wire to be efficient. Still not cheap at $1000. but > > with the 110v capability I can fix the neighbors fence. > > Aaron > > > > > > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, David Frantz wrote: > > > > > > From: David Frantz > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stick weld or Mig I guess its been > > asked before on here > > To: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Cc: "origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com" > > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't bother with a MIG only welder. Especially if > > you haven't developed a great deal of skill and an indepth > > understanding of a MIGs limitations. As Brent pointed out it is very > > easy to get a weld that looks fantastic with no ability to hold > > together at all. Plus you will need a stick welder anyway. > > > > As someone else has already mentioned this was gone over in various > > ways a few months back. People of course have different perspectives > > but your number one concern should be the quality of the welds in the > > critical areas. I'm not saying that one can't make a boat that is > > SAFE with a MIG welder but rather I'm saying can YOU? That is the > > important question followed closely by all the little limitations that > > using MIG implies. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@ mac.com > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 3:18 PM, tropical_breeze52 > .. au > >> wrote: > > > >> http://cgi.ebay com.au/NEW- INVERTER- MIG-WELDER- 250AMP-WITH- > >> REMOTE-WIRE- FEED_W0QQitemZ35 0312639617QQcmdZ ViewItemQQptZAU_ > >> BnI_Woodworking_ Metalworking? hash=item519042a c81 > >> I have been looking at this inveter mig with remot wire feed the > >> only thing would be gas blowing away while welding . Im not sure > >> what its like but you can buy flux cored wire also. you casn use 1.2 > >> mm wire in this one and its gen set friendly I think it might have > >> 10 meter leads > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> It's very easy to get a mig weld which looks perfect which has no > >>> strength . Far less likely with stick . I once built a boat in a > >>> sheet metal shop which had all the migs we needed. The short lead > >>> was a real pain in the ass for pulling the shell together, so we > >>> switched to stick for that. For the final welding they used mig . > >>> > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I would like to kown what best in hull welding using stick or mig > >>>> welding > >>>> Knowing a stick weld can have a wider weld than the mig I wondered > >>>> what people are using. What advantages or disadvantages for both? > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ > >> yahoogroups. comYahoo > >> ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger .yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                 __________________________________________________________ Voici Téléphone WindowsMD. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9708128 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                                                _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22549|22549|2010-02-17 09:19:58|tropical_breeze52|Re Keel for the 36 footer|Hi Brent Wanted to ask a question I found some 65 mm (21/2") solid bar today at work which my boss said I could have Which is a bit smaller than the 4 inch I told you about . Would this be better to use or I dont mind moding the 4 " to suit either. Ill be build the keels in the workshop at work so I have every thing I need there so it will have absolute maximum penitration and be built like the pruvebial bick shit house excuse the expression. also would it make much differece if the bottom keel was thicker than 1/2 plate as I might be able to find a free bee for both bottom keels plates maybe 1 inch plate. ( just in case a submarine tries to surface underneath me ) Cheers Hg02| 22550|22550|2010-02-17 10:16:58|jpronk1|Starting a BS 36|So after a good year of scrounging I am realy thinking of starting the actual building of my boat. My wife is happy because are back yard is looking less like a scrap yard the more I get pieces made. The nice thing about stainless is that all the parts can stay outside till I need them. I am thinking about building the decks first and storing them inside till I need them. I'm thinking of building the hull from 4-8x20 foot sheets of .187" I will only need to weld less then 4 feet of these together if the seem falls at the dart cut out. James| 22551|22551|2010-02-17 11:04:29|Ben Okopnik|Yahoo business model|So, I keep mentioning this - how we're not Yahoo's customers, which is why they don't care about making the groups work better (or even work well in the first place) - and here's a good example of what I'm talking about: http://okopnik.com/misc/yahoo_sales.jpg Background info: a while ago, my wife searched the Yahoo shops for a kid harness (lets them run around, but you can still stop them if they try to run out into traffic.) Yahoo duly took note of this, and sold the information to their customers - including NexTag. So, whenever I use Yahoo's web interface - which I normally don't, but since I've been banning spammers in this group, I now have to - they present me with "targeted" ads from their customers, based on anything I've searched for, bought, or mentioned in a post to any of their groups. I have a practice of _never_ buying something I didn't search for on my own, but I'm at least slightly annoyed, since they stole some of my screen real estate to shove their commercial at me. Time to install AdBlocker, I guess... Data mining is big business, folks; Yahoo is a 22 *billion* dollar company, with $3.29B cash on hand (http://ycharts.com/companies/YHOO). I'm not saying that they're the Devil and must be destroyed; I am saying that you should be at least aware of what you're paying for the service that you're getting. As the saying goes, TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22552|22549|2010-02-17 12:55:48|brentswain38|Re: Re Keel for the 36 footer|2 1/2 inch will work well. Try welding a test piece on in then whack it with a sledgehammer to test the weld. Some shaft is high tensile which calls for special welding t=4chniques. Alex had that problem and he had to use different welding methods for the steel he had. thicker plate for the bottoms is great, the thicker the better. Just subtract the extra weight from your ballast. When my last boat pounded on the rocks for several weeks, the half inch plate on the bottom of her keel was dented in deeply. For my current boat, I had some 1 1/4 inch spring steel , unweldable, so I cut it to the keel shape, put it inside, and poured the lead ballast on top of it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hi Brent > Wanted to ask a question I found some 65 mm (21/2") solid bar today at work which my boss said I could have > Which is a bit smaller than the 4 inch I told you about . Would this be better to use or I dont mind moding the 4 " to suit either. > Ill be build the keels in the workshop at work so I have every thing I need there so it will have absolute maximum penitration and be built like the pruvebial bick shit house excuse the expression. > also would it make much differece if the bottom keel was thicker than 1/2 plate as I might be able to find a free bee for both bottom keels plates maybe 1 inch plate. ( just in case a submarine tries to surface underneath me ) > Cheers Hg02 > | 22553|22551|2010-02-17 12:58:20|theboilerflue|Re: Yahoo business model|Oh, how lovely I was looking for one of those myself, I was thinking while reading your post that the ad was going to be a bunch of pictures of not so happy kids on leashes, or worst smiling happy kids on leaches. Hard sell either way. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > So, I keep mentioning this - how we're not Yahoo's customers, which is > why they don't care about making the groups work better (or even work > well in the first place) - and here's a good example of what I'm talking > about: > > http://okopnik.com/misc/yahoo_sales.jpg > > Background info: a while ago, my wife searched the Yahoo shops for a kid > harness (lets them run around, but you can still stop them if they try > to run out into traffic.) Yahoo duly took note of this, and sold the > information to their customers - including NexTag. So, whenever I use > Yahoo's web interface - which I normally don't, but since I've been > banning spammers in this group, I now have to - they present me with > "targeted" ads from their customers, based on anything I've searched > for, bought, or mentioned in a post to any of their groups. I have a > practice of _never_ buying something I didn't search for on my own, but > I'm at least slightly annoyed, since they stole some of my screen real > estate to shove their commercial at me. Time to install AdBlocker, I > guess... > > Data mining is big business, folks; Yahoo is a 22 *billion* dollar > company, with $3.29B cash on hand (http://ycharts.com/companies/YHOO). > I'm not saying that they're the Devil and must be destroyed; I am saying > that you should be at least aware of what you're paying for the service > that you're getting. As the saying goes, TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such > thing as a free lunch.) > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22554|22551|2010-02-17 13:32:09|Ben Okopnik|Re: Yahoo business model|On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 05:48:46PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > Oh, how lovely I was looking for one of those myself, I was thinking > while reading your post that the ad was going to be a bunch of > pictures of not so happy kids on leashes, or worst smiling happy kids > on leaches. Hard sell either way. [grin] Oh, we're very happy with ours - and so is our 2-1/2 year old. When he wants to go for a walk, he brings "Clippy Bear" to one of us as a hint. These days, it's also accompanied with a very hopeful "go 'SHORE?", which is just too cute to resist. http://bit.ly/bcZEO9 -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22555|22550|2010-02-17 14:44:41|tropical_breeze52|Re: Starting a BS 36|Hi James Im do the same as I cant buy the long sheets overe here but Im still scrouging for as least 6 months but will do the 20% of other stuff Cheers HG02 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > So after a good year of scrounging I am realy thinking of starting the actual building of my boat. > My wife is happy because are back yard is looking less like a scrap yard the more I get pieces made. The nice thing about stainless is that all the parts can stay outside till I need them. > I am thinking about building the decks first and storing them inside till I need them. > I'm thinking of building the hull from 4-8x20 foot sheets of .187" > I will only need to weld less then 4 feet of these together if the seem falls at the dart cut out. > James > | 22556|22551|2010-02-17 21:22:04|theboilerflue|Re: Yahoo business model|Oh I see, Actually, I think Michael could sell leashes pretty well, much better than the teddy bear add. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 05:48:46PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > Oh, how lovely I was looking for one of those myself, I was thinking > > while reading your post that the ad was going to be a bunch of > > pictures of not so happy kids on leashes, or worst smiling happy kids > > on leaches. Hard sell either way. > > [grin] Oh, we're very happy with ours - and so is our 2-1/2 year old. > When he wants to go for a walk, he brings "Clippy Bear" to one of us as > a hint. These days, it's also accompanied with a very hopeful "go > 'SHORE?", which is just too cute to resist. > > http://bit.ly/bcZEO9 > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22557|22549|2010-02-18 11:20:39|scott|Re: Re Keel for the 36 footer|Wouldn't you be able to heat this up with a torch and loose the temper? Then weld it? Maybe a stupid question. I don't know a lot about it. scott > For my current boat, I had some 1 1/4 inch spring steel , unweldable, so I cut it to the keel shape, put it inside, and poured the lead ballast on top of it. | 22558|22558|2010-02-18 12:33:24|martin demers|Brent'stove chemney condensation|Hi Brent, I just finished welding a little stove like the plan in your book and I am using it in my 22ft camper to test it.A lot of condensation (or something else) is happening in the chemney and some of that brown stuff is now dropping on the floor under the 90deg elbow. Is there a way to avoid it? Martin _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22559|22558|2010-02-18 13:25:37|brentswain38|Re: Brent'stove chemney condensation|In North America, when we put stovepipe together, we run the smaller pipe from the bottom into the larger top pipe to keep the rising smoke in. The smoke has no tendency to escape , but this does let the creosote drip out. In Europe they put the bigger pipe end on the bottom and run the smaller end into it from the top. This keeps the creosote in. Welded up elbows, or soldered ones, don't leak like formed elbows. In BC we have a huge supply of stainless 16 gauge or thicker scrap pipe from the pulp mills, in our scrapyards. I prefer to make all my stovepipe out of this 45 inch pipe, and on a boa,t weld as much as possible, eliminating any chance for creosote to drain out. I recently made a removable top for a lady , by cutting two 3 inch long sections of the top pipe, then cutting one down to fit inside the pipe, welding it in, then adding a bit to make the other fit over the pipe, and welding it on. The inside one keeps the creosote in and the outside one keeps te rain out. It was easy to do and worked slick. A tapped 3/8th ss bolt thru the works keeps them together. .. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Hi Brent, > I just finished welding a little stove like the plan in your book and I am using it in my 22ft camper to test it.A lot of condensation (or something else) is happening in the chemney and some of that brown stuff is now dropping on the floor under the 90deg elbow. Is there a way to avoid it? > > Martin > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22560|22549|2010-02-18 13:29:57|brentswain38|Re: Re Keel for the 36 footer|Tried that, didn't work well enough. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > Wouldn't you be able to heat this up with a torch and loose the temper? Then weld it? Maybe a stupid question. I don't know a lot about it. > scott > > > > For my current boat, I had some 1 1/4 inch spring steel , unweldable, so I cut it to the keel shape, put it inside, and poured the lead ballast on top of it. > | 22561|22549|2010-02-18 13:39:15|Aaron Williams|Re: Re Keel for the 36 footer|Spring steel If it is the same as T1, It is used in forklift forks and almost all industrial lifting equipment. You would need to preheat 200F maybe 300F and weld with E11018 It been a long time since I work on any of that type of equipment. Aaron    --- On Thu, 2/18/10, scott wrote: From: scott Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Re Keel for the 36 footer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 7:19 AM   Wouldn't you be able to heat this up with a torch and loose the temper? Then weld it? Maybe a stupid question. I don't know a lot about it. scott > For my current boat, I had some 1 1/4 inch spring steel , unweldable, so I cut it to the keel shape, put it inside, and poured the lead ballast on top of it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22562|22356|2010-02-18 16:30:07|edward|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > On you boat "Fly" how much room is there above the lead  on your bilge keels with the wings? Are you using the space for tanks? Hi James, Yes I am using them for diesel tanks. From the top of the welded in plate on top of the lead to the underside of the tank top is 520mm (20.5 inches) There is a smell sump in one end to draw the water out. Regards, Ted| 22563|22558|2010-02-18 19:53:16|theboilerflue|Re: Brent'stove chemney condensation|I made that same mistake when I put together my stove, I figured the stove had to go inside the top chimney, and had a lovely smell of smoked salmon in the boat and everything inside it, including me I imagine. The creosote dripped down the inside of the chimney through the join in the pipe and when it hit the hot stove it would instantly turn to smoke, I'm gonna do that same thing and just weld another sleeve onto pipe on the stove which will clamp around the outside of the chimney pipe to keep it all sealed up. Nice smell, though, I'm told that stuff causes cancer at times. I too wanted a stove I could remove for warmer climates, in fact I believe I used the rest of that pipe you got at walkers for that last stove you built Brent, the guy at walkers said someone else picked it up for a stove in a boat, I figured it was you, it seems not many other boat owner do that type of thing. Did your side have mounts welded onto it already too? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > In North America, when we put stovepipe together, we run the smaller pipe from the bottom into the larger top pipe to keep the rising smoke in. The smoke has no tendency to escape , but this does let the creosote drip out. In Europe they put the bigger pipe end on the bottom and run the smaller end into it from the top. This keeps the creosote in. Welded up elbows, or soldered ones, don't leak like formed elbows. > In BC we have a huge supply of stainless 16 gauge or thicker scrap pipe from the pulp mills, in our scrapyards. I prefer to make all my stovepipe out of this 45 inch pipe, and on a boa,t weld as much as possible, eliminating any chance for creosote to drain out. I recently made a removable top for a lady , by cutting two 3 inch long sections of the top pipe, then cutting one down to fit inside the pipe, welding it in, then adding a bit to make the other fit over the pipe, and welding it on. The inside one keeps the creosote in and the outside one keeps te rain out. It was easy to do and worked slick. A tapped 3/8th ss bolt thru the works keeps them together. .. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > I just finished welding a little stove like the plan in your book and I am using it in my 22ft camper to test it.A lot of condensation (or something else) is happening in the chemney and some of that brown stuff is now dropping on the floor under the 90deg elbow. Is there a way to avoid it? > > > > Martin > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22564|22356|2010-02-18 20:42:37|James Pronk|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|Hello Edward How many litres can you get in the top of each keel? I am thinking of building my keels like yours, Thank you for your response, James --- On Thu, 2/18/10, edward wrote: From: edward Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead Density Smackdown!! To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 2:58 PM   --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > On you boat "Fly" how much room is there above the lead  on your bilge keels with the wings? Are you using the space for tanks? Hi James, Yes I am using them for diesel tanks. From the top of the welded in plate on top of the lead to the underside of the tank top is 520mm (20.5 inches) There is a smell sump in one end to draw the water out. Regards, Ted __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22565|22565|2010-02-19 05:05:08|tropical_breeze52|bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Hi Guys Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life.| 22566|22558|2010-02-19 08:05:29|Scott Knudsen|Brent'stove chemney condensation|Martin, You using dry wood? Shouldn't have any creosote with a hot fire and dry wood. Also, to get the proper draw you need to make sure you have a long enough chimney for whatever altitude you are at. Scott Hi Brent, I just finished welding a little stove like the plan in your book and I am using it in my 22ft camper to test it.A lot of condensation (or something else) is happening in the chemney and some of that brown stuff is now dropping on the floor under the 90deg elbow. Is there a way to avoid it? Martin| 22567|22356|2010-02-19 08:22:17|edward|Re: Lead Density Smackdown!!|Hi James, I haven't measured them yet but by rough calculation they are about 100 litres each or 22 UK gallons or 26 US gallons. I due course I will measure them by pouring in a known quantity of liquid. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hello Edward > How many litres can you get in the top of each keel? > I am thinking of building my keels like yours, > Thank you for your response, > James > > --- On Thu, 2/18/10, edward wrote: > > > From: edward > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead Density Smackdown!! > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 2:58 PM > > >   > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > On you boat "Fly" how much room is there above the lead  on your bilge keels with the wings? Are you using the space for tanks? > > Hi James, > > Yes I am using them for diesel tanks. From the top of the welded in plate on top of the lead to the underside of the tank top is 520mm (20.5 inches) There is a smell sump in one end to draw the water out. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22568|22558|2010-02-19 09:25:53|martin demers|Re: Brent'stove chemney condensation|Hi Scott, I am using left overs of hard wood from the pallet co. and also those manufactured logs.(the long lasting ones)My chemney is about 1 1/2 foot over my camper top. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: s.knudsen@... Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:05:47 -0600 Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Brent'stove chemney condensation Martin, You using dry wood? Shouldn't have any creosote with a hot fire and dry wood. Also, to get the proper draw you need to make sure you have a long enough chimney for whatever altitude you are at. Scott Hi Brent, I just finished welding a little stove like the plan in your book and I am using it in my 22ft camper to test it.A lot of condensation (or something else) is happening in the chemney and some of that brown stuff is now dropping on the floor under the 90deg elbow. Is there a way to avoid it? Martin _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22569|22565|2010-02-19 11:31:39|Tom Mann|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Hello Being a welder myself I would say if posable weld the sheets together first then mark out. You need both sides the same. Tom On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 2:01 AM, tropical_breeze52 < tropical_breeze52@...> wrote: > Hi Guys > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time > Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my > name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed > with these. > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only > be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and > set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull > shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. > Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good > acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the > same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full > side. > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as > long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building > a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22570|22565|2010-02-19 13:08:03|Carl Anderson|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Great on getting a plasma cutter. You will find it one of the most useful tools for the construction of a steel hull. It is useful from day one for cutting the hull & deck plates right down to cutting the last piece of stainless you will be using for the detailing. Good show! The most important question that you have here is about the size of your boat NOT about HOW to build it! What you have to answer is: are you going to be single-handing most or all of the time? To create a boat for single-handing I would think that the 31 footer would be your best bet as that keeps the sail area per sail down a little making sail handling easier. Ease of sail handling can be accomplished on a larger boat as well. One thing regarding this aspect of sailing would be to plan for an "all lines lead aft" design in your running rigging. This may require some deep thinking about the layout of all the cabintop items you will have. Some forethought into the layout of the running rigging coming from the mast is definitely required to make this work out for the best. One modification that I am making to MOM's running rigging this winter is accommodation to be able to reef the main from both sides of the boom. This was suggested by the owner of the "G.D. Higgins" as something to have. As Cosmo put it: "You should think about being able to always reef from the high side of the boat". Yes this makes for more complexity and additional hardware but after only one season sailing I can see the wisdom in his advise. The other alternative is to have all your reefing lines led aft through turning blocks & such. What you will find in building the larger hull (36 foot plates) is more storage options with the larger space inside. The boat builder that I hired to build our hull (and worked along side for 10 months) said that the time difference between the 31 footer & 36 footer was not a significant increase. In getting our boat together and planning on 2 people living inside we have been making many compromises regarding what and how much of anything we can take aboard. It is amazing how fast a 36 foot boat will fill up with "stuff" that you think is essential! Plan accordingly. Carl sv-mom.com tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > Hi Guys > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first > time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could > write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean > Im impressed with these. > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to > only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift > and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport > underneath) > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull > shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. > Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get > good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and > do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the > full side. > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat > as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be > building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > | 22571|22565|2010-02-19 13:58:37|theboilerflue|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|One thing regarding this aspect > of sailing would be to plan for an "all lines lead aft" design in your > running rigging. This may require some deep thinking about the layout > of all the cabintop items you will have. Some forethought into the > layout of the running rigging coming from the mast is definitely > required to make this work out for the best. I was thinking about this for my boat too maybe I'll do it sometime but for now I don't think I'll bother, I'll try the boat out with conventional at the mast rigging first. But my plan to lead all the lines aft was via a SS loop that is attached to the pin that runs through the mast step, I just left it an 1 or so longer or each side and made up a loop that fits over the pin out of some 3/4 rod. I have some pictures of it I think, so the boom vang attaches to the middle of it and I have a bunch of other attachments for blocks along either side to lead lines aft from, I haven't tried it out but in theory it should work pretty nicely. > > One modification that I am making to MOM's running rigging this winter > is accommodation to be able to reef the main from both sides of the > boom. This was suggested by the owner of the "G.D. Higgins" as > something to have. As Cosmo put it: "You should think about being able > to always reef from the high side of the boat". Yes this makes for more I have my reefing line run through the boom via sheaves at either end the plan is to have a winch and maybe some clutches on the underside of the boom so it can be operated from either side.| 22572|22572|2010-02-19 14:14:55|brentswain38|Gorge Harbour restrictions|There are plans to turn almost all of the western half of Gorge Harbour on Cortes Island BC into a huge oyster farm, eliminating one of the most popular anchorages on Cortes, and severely restricting access to the Marina there. They are in the public input stage at the moment . To oppose the gradual takeover of BC public anchorages for industrial use, send your comments to Kenneth.Albrecht@... phone him at 250-751-7220 or fax him at 250-751-7224 or email Shannon.vollema@... the federal waterways rep. Thanks Brent| 22573|22558|2010-02-19 14:22:16|brentswain38|Re: Brent'stove chemney condensation|Yes I went there with a friend who had a section of 12 inch pipe cut for her stove, the other half is still there if anyone wants to build a stove. I haven't seen her stove yet. I took my stove out for my last two trips south, to get more storage space, but the last time I wished I had left it in. The increase on storage wasn't much, as I could store canned goods in the cleaned out stove and cooking oil bottles in the stovepipe. It got cold after 33 degrees north, so next time I will leave it in and stock up on firewood before heading north, or south. As I don't use the forepeak at sea, I can put my extra food and firewood there and take it out when I reach the warm water, then store the extra canned food in the stove and chimney. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I made that same mistake when I put together my stove, I figured the stove had to go inside the top chimney, and had a lovely smell of smoked salmon in the boat and everything inside it, including me I imagine. The creosote dripped down the inside of the chimney through the join in the pipe and when it hit the hot stove it would instantly turn to smoke, I'm gonna do that same thing and just weld another sleeve onto pipe on the stove which will clamp around the outside of the chimney pipe to keep it all sealed up. Nice smell, though, I'm told that stuff causes cancer at times. > I too wanted a stove I could remove for warmer climates, in fact I believe I used the rest of that pipe you got at walkers for that last stove you built Brent, the guy at walkers said someone else picked it up for a stove in a boat, I figured it was you, it seems not many other boat owner do that type of thing. Did your side have mounts welded onto it already too? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > In North America, when we put stovepipe together, we run the smaller pipe from the bottom into the larger top pipe to keep the rising smoke in. The smoke has no tendency to escape , but this does let the creosote drip out. In Europe they put the bigger pipe end on the bottom and run the smaller end into it from the top. This keeps the creosote in. Welded up elbows, or soldered ones, don't leak like formed elbows. > > In BC we have a huge supply of stainless 16 gauge or thicker scrap pipe from the pulp mills, in our scrapyards. I prefer to make all my stovepipe out of this 45 inch pipe, and on a boa,t weld as much as possible, eliminating any chance for creosote to drain out. I recently made a removable top for a lady , by cutting two 3 inch long sections of the top pipe, then cutting one down to fit inside the pipe, welding it in, then adding a bit to make the other fit over the pipe, and welding it on. The inside one keeps the creosote in and the outside one keeps te rain out. It was easy to do and worked slick. A tapped 3/8th ss bolt thru the works keeps them together. .. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > I just finished welding a little stove like the plan in your book and I am using it in my 22ft camper to test it.A lot of condensation (or something else) is happening in the chemney and some of that brown stuff is now dropping on the floor under the 90deg elbow. Is there a way to avoid it? > > > > > > Martin > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 22574|22558|2010-02-19 14:27:49|brentswain38|Brent'stove chemney condensation|Dry wood is wonderful, but not always available in winter. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Scott Knudsen wrote: > > Martin, > > You using dry wood? Shouldn't have any creosote with a hot fire and dry > wood. > > Also, to get the proper draw you need to make sure you have a long > enough chimney for whatever altitude you are at. > > Scott > > Hi Brent, > I just finished welding a little stove like the plan in your book and I > am using it in my 22ft camper to test it.A lot of condensation (or > something else) is happening in the chemney and some of that brown stuff > is now dropping on the floor under the 90deg elbow. Is there a way to > avoid it? > > Martin > | 22575|22544|2010-02-19 14:28:22|brentswain38|Re: replating 1/8 steel with 3/16 plate|Is it round bilged or hard chine? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > HI, > I was trying to know if I could replate my steel classic(37ft) wich is made of 1/8 corteen steel on frames with 3/16 steel going section by section without distortion. > > Thanks, Martin. > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22576|22565|2010-02-19 14:28:48|brentswain38|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Tack the two sheets together, do the layout, then break the tacks, and cut them out if that is more convenient for you. Try locate the centre seam midships so it coincides with the seam across the bottom plate. That way you only have about one meter of extra seam , and it's much easier to keep distortion out there. How far are you cruising? The 36 lets you stock up more where things are cheaper. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hi Guys > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > | 22577|22565|2010-02-19 14:33:52|brentswain38|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|I once led my mainsheet aft. When it came time to drop the main , I'd get it halfway down and the halyard would snarl around something in the cockpit so it would take several trips from the cockpit to the mast to get it down. Gave up on that idea quickly. The detailing for the 31 and 36 are almost identical, so there is not much time advantage in the smaller boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Great on getting a plasma cutter. You will find it one of the most > useful tools for the construction of a steel hull. It is useful from > day one for cutting the hull & deck plates right down to cutting the > last piece of stainless you will be using for the detailing. Good show! > > The most important question that you have here is about the size of your > boat NOT about HOW to build it! > What you have to answer is: are you going to be single-handing most or > all of the time? > > To create a boat for single-handing I would think that the 31 footer > would be your best bet as that keeps the sail area per sail down a > little making sail handling easier. Ease of sail handling can be > accomplished on a larger boat as well. One thing regarding this aspect > of sailing would be to plan for an "all lines lead aft" design in your > running rigging. This may require some deep thinking about the layout > of all the cabintop items you will have. Some forethought into the > layout of the running rigging coming from the mast is definitely > required to make this work out for the best. > > One modification that I am making to MOM's running rigging this winter > is accommodation to be able to reef the main from both sides of the > boom. This was suggested by the owner of the "G.D. Higgins" as > something to have. As Cosmo put it: "You should think about being able > to always reef from the high side of the boat". Yes this makes for more > complexity and additional hardware but after only one season sailing I > can see the wisdom in his advise. The other alternative is to have all > your reefing lines led aft through turning blocks & such. > > What you will find in building the larger hull (36 foot plates) is more > storage options with the larger space inside. The boat builder that I > hired to build our hull (and worked along side for 10 months) said that > the time difference between the 31 footer & 36 footer was not a > significant increase. > > In getting our boat together and planning on 2 people living inside we > have been making many compromises regarding what and how much of > anything we can take aboard. It is amazing how fast a 36 foot boat will > fill up with "stuff" that you think is essential! > > Plan accordingly. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > > tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys > > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first > > time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could > > write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean > > Im impressed with these. > > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to > > only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift > > and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport > > underneath) > > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull > > shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. > > Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get > > good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and > > do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the > > full side. > > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat > > as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be > > building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > > > | 22578|22565|2010-02-19 15:18:33|Paul Wilson|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|I see little difference between ease of sailing between the 36 and 31. With roller furling and slab reefing, either one is very easy to single-hand. I have met many people who think a larger boat about 40 or 45 feet is easier to sail offshore than a smaller one due to it being less lively. As long as everything works, I tend to agree. At one extreme, however, I have a friend who single-hands a 65 foot ferro boat. It's mainsail is from a Santa Cruz 52 and he is 67 years old. It's impossible to lift the sails on your own. He struggles at times but he says he "needs to be organized" and only anchors and uses a mooring. Docking and maneuvering a boat in a tight marina is the challenge when it comes to size in my opinion. The smaller the better. Personally, given a choice between a 31 and a 36 , I would definitely go for the 36. I have never had any lines going aft on my boat although I have sailed on other boats that did. Personally, I have never seen the advantage of having lines aft. As Brent says, it seems to me there are always snags and snarls as well as lots of friction. Having the lines at the mast is simple and keeps a lot of line out of the cockpit which gets crowded enough as it is. With good hand holds and something to brace against near the mast like a stay or pulpit, working at the mast is never a problem other than getting wet. Cheers, Paul brentswain38 wrote: > > > I once led my mainsheet aft. When it came time to drop the main , I'd > get it halfway down and the halyard would snarl around something in > the cockpit so it would take several trips from the cockpit to the > mast to get it down. Gave up on that idea quickly. > The detailing for the 31 and 36 are almost identical, so there is not > much time advantage in the smaller boat. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Great on getting a plasma cutter. You will find it one of the most > > useful tools for the construction of a steel hull. It is useful from > > day one for cutting the hull & deck plates right down to cutting the > > last piece of stainless you will be using for the detailing. Good show! > > > > The most important question that you have here is about the size of > your > > boat NOT about HOW to build it! > > What you have to answer is: are you going to be single-handing most or > > all of the time? > > > > To create a boat for single-handing I would think that the 31 footer > > would be your best bet as that keeps the sail area per sail down a > > little making sail handling easier. Ease of sail handling can be > > accomplished on a larger boat as well. One thing regarding this aspect > > of sailing would be to plan for an "all lines lead aft" design in your > > running rigging. This may require some deep thinking about the layout > > of all the cabintop items you will have. Some forethought into the > > layout of the running rigging coming from the mast is definitely > > required to make this work out for the best. > > > > One modification that I am making to MOM's running rigging this winter > > is accommodation to be able to reef the main from both sides of the > > boom. This was suggested by the owner of the "G.D. Higgins" as > > something to have. As Cosmo put it: "You should think about being able > > to always reef from the high side of the boat". Yes this makes for more > > complexity and additional hardware but after only one season sailing I > > can see the wisdom in his advise. The other alternative is to have all > > your reefing lines led aft through turning blocks & such. > > > > What you will find in building the larger hull (36 foot plates) is more > > storage options with the larger space inside. The boat builder that I > > hired to build our hull (and worked along side for 10 months) said that > > the time difference between the 31 footer & 36 footer was not a > > significant increase. > > > > In getting our boat together and planning on 2 people living inside we > > have been making many compromises regarding what and how much of > > anything we can take aboard. It is amazing how fast a 36 foot boat will > > fill up with "stuff" that you think is essential! > > > > Plan accordingly. > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > | 22579|22544|2010-02-19 16:07:47|martin demers|Re: replating 1/8 steel with 3/16 plate|it is round bilged. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:27:26 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: replating 1/8 steel with 3/16 plate Is it round bilged or hard chine? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > HI, > I was trying to know if I could replate my steel classic(37ft) wich is made of 1/8 corteen steel on frames with 3/16 steel going section by section without distortion. > > Thanks, Martin. > __________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Lisez vos courriels Hotmail sur votre t�l�phone. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9708127 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22580|22565|2010-02-19 17:08:13|tropical_breeze52|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|I am thinking on two 6 meter(40ft) steel sheets per hull and join right on your designs center line. I would like to prime the sheets before building but I think it might be better to weld the hull first and fix the mess as I cant sand blast at work so maybe before the keels were welded and loose the sand out the keel holes I should have asked the steel seller if its possibly to buy primed sheets but as its from Korea I didnt think it possible As Far as cruising goes I will be making one of your water makers and dont want to be in the position that I have to go some where to buy food just because Ive run out because of lack of space. I did notice in the Yahoo photo file some one has used a hydraulic motor on your ancor winch as I want to make this boat so I can sail solo if needed has any one any input on this idea I can easily adapt construction industry hydraulics into Brent design and keep plenty of seal rebuild kits on board I know its not K.I.S.S but been in situations where the ancor starts sliding on seaweed and its blowing a gail on your own and the shore getting closer not a nice feeling So I thought I could run some steel hydraulic lines lag them inside the boat and make a bulk head fitting near the ancor and set up a small hydraulic motor to drive the drum.and keep the original hand winch as well . I do want in the end to make it as easy as possible to sail solo if I need to. with lest amount out of stress in natures bad situations. And want to build things in now while Im working and have the salary to spend because I wont later when retired. I intend to solar the boat but will wait till the last minute as I think there will be some great improvment in the next few years as far as solar cells. From what Ive seen wind generators fly to bits I might be to harsh saying that . A friend of mind had his ply cat fitted out very comfotably maybe to much as he lost a mast as one stage( to much weight). But the way he had it set up was very comforable. I lived on a 24 ft cat for a few months very ZEN Ha Ha and took in as much as I could looking over other cruise boats Ive mainly been a weekend sailor starting out in a sabot (8ft dingy) when I was 10 and have love the wind ever since. But I hate it when I build some thing and I didnt look at every angle before I built itand have always felt airing ideas to people gives you feed back even if they get a laugh out of it. Cheers Hg Cheers Hg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tack the two sheets together, do the layout, then break the tacks, and cut them out if that is more convenient for you. Try locate the centre seam midships so it coincides with the seam across the bottom plate. That way you only have about one meter of extra seam , and it's much easier to keep distortion out there. > How far are you cruising? The 36 lets you stock up more where things are cheaper. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Guys > > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. > > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. > > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > | 22581|22565|2010-02-19 17:24:54|tropical_breeze52|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Hi Paul I have been think also of running a couple of steel Hydraulic lines for the main halard(cap them for now) and if needed when Im older fitting a simple slip drum off a small hydraulic motor then to raise the main. A few other things have entered my head like ketch or cutter rig for sail handeling when your older but K.I.S.S must prevail always rule number one. Brents right when he says the lines get tangled mainly when you dont want them to. As if there is a god he likes comedy when he looks down at at our worst senario and laughs at our expense Cheers Hg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I see little difference between ease of sailing between the 36 and 31. > With roller furling and slab reefing, either one is very easy to > single-hand. I have met many people who think a larger boat about 40 or > 45 feet is easier to sail offshore than a smaller one due to it being > less lively. As long as everything works, I tend to agree. At one > extreme, however, I have a friend who single-hands a 65 foot ferro > boat. It's mainsail is from a Santa Cruz 52 and he is 67 years old. > It's impossible to lift the sails on your own. He struggles at times > but he says he "needs to be organized" and only anchors and uses a > mooring. Docking and maneuvering a boat in a tight marina is the > challenge when it comes to size in my opinion. The smaller the > better. Personally, given a choice between a 31 and a 36 , I would > definitely go for the 36. > > I have never had any lines going aft on my boat although I have sailed > on other boats that did. Personally, I have never seen the advantage of > having lines aft. As Brent says, it seems to me there are always snags > and snarls as well as lots of friction. Having the lines at the mast is > simple and keeps a lot of line out of the cockpit which gets crowded > enough as it is. With good hand holds and something to brace against > near the mast like a stay or pulpit, working at the mast is never a > problem other than getting wet. > > Cheers, Paul > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > I once led my mainsheet aft. When it came time to drop the main , I'd > > get it halfway down and the halyard would snarl around something in > > the cockpit so it would take several trips from the cockpit to the > > mast to get it down. Gave up on that idea quickly. > > The detailing for the 31 and 36 are almost identical, so there is not > > much time advantage in the smaller boat. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Great on getting a plasma cutter. You will find it one of the most > > > useful tools for the construction of a steel hull. It is useful from > > > day one for cutting the hull & deck plates right down to cutting the > > > last piece of stainless you will be using for the detailing. Good show! > > > > > > The most important question that you have here is about the size of > > your > > > boat NOT about HOW to build it! > > > What you have to answer is: are you going to be single-handing most or > > > all of the time? > > > > > > To create a boat for single-handing I would think that the 31 footer > > > would be your best bet as that keeps the sail area per sail down a > > > little making sail handling easier. Ease of sail handling can be > > > accomplished on a larger boat as well. One thing regarding this aspect > > > of sailing would be to plan for an "all lines lead aft" design in your > > > running rigging. This may require some deep thinking about the layout > > > of all the cabintop items you will have. Some forethought into the > > > layout of the running rigging coming from the mast is definitely > > > required to make this work out for the best. > > > > > > One modification that I am making to MOM's running rigging this winter > > > is accommodation to be able to reef the main from both sides of the > > > boom. This was suggested by the owner of the "G.D. Higgins" as > > > something to have. As Cosmo put it: "You should think about being able > > > to always reef from the high side of the boat". Yes this makes for more > > > complexity and additional hardware but after only one season sailing I > > > can see the wisdom in his advise. The other alternative is to have all > > > your reefing lines led aft through turning blocks & such. > > > > > > What you will find in building the larger hull (36 foot plates) is more > > > storage options with the larger space inside. The boat builder that I > > > hired to build our hull (and worked along side for 10 months) said that > > > the time difference between the 31 footer & 36 footer was not a > > > significant increase. > > > > > > In getting our boat together and planning on 2 people living inside we > > > have been making many compromises regarding what and how much of > > > anything we can take aboard. It is amazing how fast a 36 foot boat will > > > fill up with "stuff" that you think is essential! > > > > > > Plan accordingly. > > > > > > Carl > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > > > | 22582|22572|2010-02-19 17:33:22|tropical_breeze52|Re: Gorge Harbour restrictions|I hate to see this happening we have a similar problem here we have been able to beach a boat here for repairs for up to 3 months and then move off and sum are trying to eliminate this .Plus the beaucrats seem to like thinking up new rules to cover there existance in Aust Seemingly fix one prolem and create new problems Cheers Hg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There are plans to turn almost all of the western half of Gorge Harbour on Cortes Island BC into a huge oyster farm, eliminating one of the most popular anchorages on Cortes, and severely restricting access to the Marina there. They are in the public input stage at the moment . > To oppose the gradual takeover of BC public anchorages for industrial use, send your comments to Kenneth.Albrecht@... phone him at 250-751-7220 or fax him at 250-751-7224 or email Shannon.vollema@... the federal waterways rep. > Thanks > Brent > | 22583|22565|2010-02-19 17:50:33|tropical_breeze52|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|HI I had a chat to a contractor yesterday that makes vandal covers for our excavators where he works they have large amounts of scrape stainless and alumiium so I will be giving him my Brents s/s santas list to help fill so it was an incentive to buy the Plasma cutter I tried it on aluminium scrap and its so neat Hg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I once led my mainsheet aft. When it came time to drop the main , I'd get it halfway down and the halyard would snarl around something in the cockpit so it would take several trips from the cockpit to the mast to get it down. Gave up on that idea quickly. > The detailing for the 31 and 36 are almost identical, so there is not much time advantage in the smaller boat. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Great on getting a plasma cutter. You will find it one of the most > > useful tools for the construction of a steel hull. It is useful from > > day one for cutting the hull & deck plates right down to cutting the > > last piece of stainless you will be using for the detailing. Good show! > > > > The most important question that you have here is about the size of your > > boat NOT about HOW to build it! > > What you have to answer is: are you going to be single-handing most or > > all of the time? > > > > To create a boat for single-handing I would think that the 31 footer > > would be your best bet as that keeps the sail area per sail down a > > little making sail handling easier. Ease of sail handling can be > > accomplished on a larger boat as well. One thing regarding this aspect > > of sailing would be to plan for an "all lines lead aft" design in your > > running rigging. This may require some deep thinking about the layout > > of all the cabintop items you will have. Some forethought into the > > layout of the running rigging coming from the mast is definitely > > required to make this work out for the best. > > > > One modification that I am making to MOM's running rigging this winter > > is accommodation to be able to reef the main from both sides of the > > boom. This was suggested by the owner of the "G.D. Higgins" as > > something to have. As Cosmo put it: "You should think about being able > > to always reef from the high side of the boat". Yes this makes for more > > complexity and additional hardware but after only one season sailing I > > can see the wisdom in his advise. The other alternative is to have all > > your reefing lines led aft through turning blocks & such. > > > > What you will find in building the larger hull (36 foot plates) is more > > storage options with the larger space inside. The boat builder that I > > hired to build our hull (and worked along side for 10 months) said that > > the time difference between the 31 footer & 36 footer was not a > > significant increase. > > > > In getting our boat together and planning on 2 people living inside we > > have been making many compromises regarding what and how much of > > anything we can take aboard. It is amazing how fast a 36 foot boat will > > fill up with "stuff" that you think is essential! > > > > Plan accordingly. > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys > > > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first > > > time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could > > > write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean > > > Im impressed with these. > > > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to > > > only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > > > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift > > > and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport > > > underneath) > > > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull > > > shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. > > > Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get > > > good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and > > > do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > > > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the > > > full side. > > > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat > > > as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be > > > building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > > > > > > > | 22584|22558|2010-02-19 18:20:11|tropical_breeze52|Brent'stove chemney condensation|Hi Scott you probally know this but becareful of some woods maybe have been treated some reason or another out of over seas containers ect. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Hi Scott, > I am using left overs of hard wood from the pallet co. and also those manufactured logs.(the long lasting ones)My chemney is about 1 1/2 foot over my camper top. > > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: s.knudsen@... > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:05:47 -0600 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Brent'stove chemney condensation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, > > > > You using dry wood? Shouldn't have any creosote with a hot fire and dry > > wood. > > > > Also, to get the proper draw you need to make sure you have a long > > enough chimney for whatever altitude you are at. > > > > Scott > > > > Hi Brent, > > I just finished welding a little stove like the plan in your book and I > > am using it in my 22ft camper to test it.A lot of condensation (or > > something else) is happening in the chemney and some of that brown stuff > > is now dropping on the floor under the 90deg elbow. Is there a way to > > avoid it? > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22585|22565|2010-02-19 19:32:02|hotelechovictorkilo|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Hi What brand did you go for? I am shopping now. Is yours single phase or 3 phase, I dont have 3 phase power. Craig --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hi Guys > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > | 22586|22586|2010-02-20 02:41:03|tropical_breeze52|Ancor winch wire rope|Just been reading Brents book I have an old school mate the runs a window cleaning business in the city cleans high rise buildings I havent seen it for a while but he has offered me wire rope for free from the lifts they use on the sides of these sky scrapers they have to by law replace it every year I think its 5/16 or 3/8 but no weather protection on the rope could I untilize this if it was replace regularly ?or protect it with some thing| 22587|22565|2010-02-20 09:21:19|Nick Arios|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|I agree, lines led aft are increasing the friction and cost and provide small benefit. The mainsail often needs to be hand pulled forward to get a smooth crease when reefed and you cannot do that from the cockpit. An interesting idea from a couple that circumnavigated on a Catalina 36 is to weld a ladder like contraption on the boom that acts as both a place for the main to rest as well as handhold as you go to the mast. Cheers, Nick ________________________________ From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 3:18:25 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today I see little difference between ease of sailing between the 36 and 31. With roller furling and slab reefing, either one is very easy to single-hand. I have met many people who think a larger boat about 40 or 45 feet is easier to sail offshore than a smaller one due to it being less lively. As long as everything works, I tend to agree. At one extreme, however, I have a friend who single-hands a 65 foot ferro boat. It's mainsail is from a Santa Cruz 52 and he is 67 years old. It's impossible to lift the sails on your own. He struggles at times but he says he "needs to be organized" and only anchors and uses a mooring. Docking and maneuvering a boat in a tight marina is the challenge when it comes to size in my opinion. The smaller the better. Personally, given a choice between a 31 and a 36 , I would definitely go for the 36. I have never had any lines going aft on my boat although I have sailed on other boats that did. Personally, I have never seen the advantage of having lines aft. As Brent says, it seems to me there are always snags and snarls as well as lots of friction. Having the lines at the mast is simple and keeps a lot of line out of the cockpit which gets crowded enough as it is. With good hand holds and something to brace against near the mast like a stay or pulpit, working at the mast is never a problem other than getting wet. Cheers, Paul brentswain38 wrote: > > > I once led my mainsheet aft. When it came time to drop the main , I'd > get it halfway down and the halyard would snarl around something in > the cockpit so it would take several trips from the cockpit to the > mast to get it down. Gave up on that idea quickly. > The detailing for the 31 and 36 are almost identical, so there is not > much time advantage in the smaller boat. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Great on getting a plasma cutter. You will find it one of the most > > useful tools for the construction of a steel hull. It is useful from > > day one for cutting the hull & deck plates right down to cutting the > > last piece of stainless you will be using for the detailing. Good show! > > > > The most important question that you have here is about the size of > your > > boat NOT about HOW to build it! > > What you have to answer is: are you going to be single-handing most or > > all of the time? > > > > To create a boat for single-handing I would think that the 31 footer > > would be your best bet as that keeps the sail area per sail down a > > little making sail handling easier. Ease of sail handling can be > > accomplished on a larger boat as well. One thing regarding this aspect > > of sailing would be to plan for an "all lines lead aft" design in your > > running rigging. This may require some deep thinking about the layout > > of all the cabintop items you will have. Some forethought into the > > layout of the running rigging coming from the mast is definitely > > required to make this work out for the best. > > > > One modification that I am making to MOM's running rigging this winter > > is accommodation to be able to reef the main from both sides of the > > boom. This was suggested by the owner of the "G.D. Higgins" as > > something to have. As Cosmo put it: "You should think about being able > > to always reef from the high side of the boat". Yes this makes for more > > complexity and additional hardware but after only one season sailing I > > can see the wisdom in his advise. The other alternative is to have all > > your reefing lines led aft through turning blocks & such. > > > > What you will find in building the larger hull (36 foot plates) is more > > storage options with the larger space inside. The boat builder that I > > hired to build our hull (and worked along side for 10 months) said that > > the time difference between the 31 footer & 36 footer was not a > > significant increase. > > > > In getting our boat together and planning on 2 people living inside we > > have been making many compromises regarding what and how much of > > anything we can take aboard. It is amazing how fast a 36 foot boat will > > fill up with "stuff" that you think is essential! > > > > Plan accordingly. > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22588|22588|2010-02-20 11:35:37|SHANE ROTHWELL|Bought & tried out Plazma cutter today|Hey Paul & Hg, Years ago met an Aussie with a round bilge steelie who had a hydraulic motor set up on his anchor winch. Said it worked a treat for those sticky situations you mentioned. Also said SS "cheeks" as he called them, were essentail to protect the hull from the anchor when raising/lowering it. Not too sure about using hydraulics for raising the main tho... pulling the headboard through the masthead sheave, or ripping the tack out of your main might dampen a days sail... Hi Paul I have been think also of running a couple of steel Hydraulic lines for the main halard(cap them for now) and if needed when Im older fitting a simple slip drum off a small hydraulic motor then to raise the main. A few other things have entered my head like ketch or cutter rig for sail handeling when your older but K.I.S.S must prevail always rule number one. Brents right when he says the lines get tangled mainly when you dont want them to. As if there is a god he likes comedy when he looks down at at our worst senario and laughs at our expense Cheers Hg __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 22589|22572|2010-02-20 12:03:57|GP|Re: Gorge Harbour restrictions|Sent my opposition letter to both... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There are plans to turn almost all of the western half of Gorge Harbour on Cortes Island BC into a huge oyster farm, eliminating one of the most popular anchorages on Cortes, and severely restricting access to the Marina there. They are in the public input stage at the moment . > To oppose the gradual takeover of BC public anchorages for industrial use, send your comments to Kenneth.Albrecht@... phone him at 250-751-7220 or fax him at 250-751-7224 or email Shannon.vollema@... the federal waterways rep. > Thanks > Brent > | 22590|22572|2010-02-20 12:26:04|GP|Re: Gorge Harbour restrictions|Brent: you may be interested in this link as well: http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2010/02/please-heed-this-warning-from-former-attorney-general-of-norway.html Seems Alexandra Morton was completely correct a decade ago... she was ridiculed by the BC govt and the DFO for her views on fish farm sea lice destroying wild salmon runs. The good side is that opposition to Fish Farming is gaining momentum. Origamians... if you want to sail BC coastal waters and not visit an industrial park... please sign a letter on her site that is now building to over 20,000 signatures... www.adopt-a-fry.org Thanks Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There are plans to turn almost all of the western half of Gorge Harbour on Cortes Island BC into a huge oyster farm, eliminating one of the most popular anchorages on Cortes, and severely restricting access to the Marina there. They are in the public input stage at the moment . > To oppose the gradual takeover of BC public anchorages for industrial use, send your comments to Kenneth.Albrecht@... phone him at 250-751-7220 or fax him at 250-751-7224 or email Shannon.vollema@... the federal waterways rep. > Thanks > Brent > | 22591|22572|2010-02-20 12:45:53|SHANE ROTHWELL|Gorge Harbour restrictions|Brent, Thanks very much for this! Very clearly this guy is provincial. Fisheries & Oceans is Federal. Legally the two are completely separate water tight entities which may not, under ANY circumstances interchange, exchange, contract or arrange in any way shape or form ANY responcibilities of the other. At the same time we know they break the law on a regualr, daily, basis. So this guy Kenneth.Albrechtuy has no right whatsoever to have anything to do with it. Has he been told? At the same time, Alexandra Moulton has reciently forced the provincial government to obey the law and stop interfering (with regard to the fish farms in the Broughton Archepelago (sp) ) as it very clearly falls under federal jurisdiction. Now THAT is a woman with guts, dedication and integrity! If the tide passes over it, it's federal. Period. And if they do it anyway, perhaps monetary restriction would slow them down? Wouldn't repeated, regular fecal contamination of the crop effect sales of product by the subcontractor (s) who hold the oyster lease? How about if people started getting sick from their product? I wonder how often they would have to test their crop? Do you think they could afford to test 100% of the crop 100% of the time? If the guy who owns the oyster lease, as he would have to live on it to be sure that there are no....encroachments/whateve wouldn't he? what if he finds it impossible to buy groceries? what if he finds it impossible to buy fuel for his truck? his boat? How about if absolutely NOBODY will work on his equipment? What if he finds his wife is spit on and derided in public? his childeren chastised in school? the school bus will not provide service to take his kids to school? He can't buy a beer in the local? What if everyone was regularly flipping him and his family the bird as soon as they were recognized walking down the street or driving down the road? Is it illegal to have a piss on the beach? If it's federal owned, then why don't you and I have access to it? What if crouds of people just arrived on the beach (after a cup of tea perhaps?) and had a leak? or picked oysters? 500 of them at a time? What if it happened on a regular basis? What if they owners of the least had their pictures posted on every telephone pole asking people if they knew what this guy was up to? What if he's labelled as something far less than desirable for the community? Could he afford to have 24 hour guards? What if he was unable to hire guards? Please note that I ask nothing but questions, but I wonder how many people would be interested in persueing an oyster lease if they knew what the reaction of the people in and around the community might possibly be? I get the distinct impression that this is a particularly creative bunch, don't you? Do you figure that we might just possibly be able to come up with a number of other creative ways to make the prospect of an oyster lease in Gorge Harbour particularly, very specifically, rather un-attractive? Has anyone posted anything on the local bulliten boards? Perhaps gerilla advertising might be the way to get the message across to any prospective lease holders? On the other hand, maybe the locals want a macdonalds and a huge petrochemical plant on the island? What do you think? Just asking. Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:14 am (PST) There are plans to turn almost all of the western half of Gorge Harbour on Cortes Island BC into a huge oyster farm, eliminating one of the most popular anchorages on Cortes, and severely restricting access to the Marina there. They are in the public input stage at the moment . To oppose the gradual takeover of BC public anchorages for industrial use, send your comments to Kenneth.Albrecht@ gov.bc.ca phone him at 250-751-7220 or fax him at 250-751-7224 or email Shannon.vollema@ tc.gc.ca the federal waterways rep. Thanks Brent __________________________________________________________________ Get the name you've always wanted @... or @...! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/| 22592|22572|2010-02-20 13:22:01|GP|Re: Gorge Harbour restrictions|Shane: Below is Cortes Island Community Website http://cortesisland.com/cgi-bin/tideline/show_home.cgi There is mention of action to be taken about Bute inlet. I did not see a reference to Gorge Harbour yet. The tone of the Bute Inlet article is very strong so hopefully there will be strong opposition to the oyster lease. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Brent, > > Thanks very much for this! > > Very clearly this guy is provincial. Fisheries & Oceans is Federal. Legally the two are completely separate water tight entities which may not, under ANY circumstances interchange, exchange, contract or arrange in any way shape or form ANY responcibilities of the other. At the same time we know they break the law on a regualr, daily, basis. So this guy Kenneth.Albrechtuy has no right whatsoever to have anything to do with it. Has he been told? > > At the same time, Alexandra Moulton has reciently forced the provincial government to obey the law and stop interfering (with regard to the fish farms in the Broughton Archepelago (sp) ) as it very clearly falls under federal jurisdiction. Now THAT is a woman with guts, dedication and integrity! > > If the tide passes over it, it's federal. Period. And if they do it anyway, perhaps monetary restriction would slow them down? Wouldn't repeated, regular fecal contamination of the crop effect sales of product by the subcontractor (s) who hold the oyster lease? How about if people started getting sick from their product? I wonder how often they would have to test their crop? Do you think they could afford to test 100% of the crop 100% of the time? > > If the guy who owns the oyster lease, as he would have to live on it to be sure that there are no....encroachments/whateve wouldn't he? what if he finds it impossible to buy groceries? what if he finds it impossible to buy fuel for his truck? his boat? How about if absolutely NOBODY will work on his equipment? What if he finds his wife is spit on and derided in public? his childeren chastised in school? the school bus will not provide service to take his kids to school? He can't buy a beer in the local? What if everyone was regularly flipping him and his family the bird as soon as they were recognized walking down the street or driving down the road? > > Is it illegal to have a piss on the beach? If it's federal owned, then why don't you and I have access to it? What if crouds of people just arrived on the beach (after a cup of tea perhaps?) and had a leak? or picked oysters? 500 of them at a time? What if it happened on a regular basis? What if they owners of the least had their pictures posted on every telephone pole asking people if they knew what this guy was up to? > > > What if he's labelled as something far less than desirable for the community? Could he afford to have 24 hour guards? What if he was unable to hire guards? Please note that I ask nothing but questions, but I wonder how many people would be interested in persueing an oyster lease if they knew what the reaction of the people in and around the community might possibly be? > > I get the distinct impression that this is a particularly creative bunch, don't you? Do you figure that we might just possibly be able to come up with a number of other creative ways to make the prospect of an oyster lease in Gorge Harbour particularly, very specifically, rather un-attractive? > > Has anyone posted anything on the local bulliten boards? Perhaps gerilla advertising might be the way to get the message across to any prospective lease holders? On the other hand, maybe the locals want a macdonalds and a huge petrochemical plant on the island? What do you think? > > Just asking. > > > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 > Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:14 am (PST) > > > There are plans to turn almost all of the western half of Gorge Harbour on Cortes Island BC into a huge oyster farm, eliminating one of the most popular anchorages on Cortes, and severely restricting access to the Marina there. They are in the public input stage at the moment . > To oppose the gradual takeover of BC public anchorages for industrial use, send your comments to Kenneth.Albrecht@ gov.bc.ca phone him at 250-751-7220 or fax him at 250-751-7224 or email Shannon.vollema@ tc.gc.ca the federal waterways rep. > Thanks > Brent > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Get the name you've always wanted @... or @...! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/ > | 22593|22544|2010-02-20 15:49:23|brentswain38|Re: replating 1/8 steel with 3/16 plate|Yes you could . When rolling the plates, allow for shrinkage of the edges from welding , otherwidse the seams shrink inward. Centreing the seams on a frame or longitudinal reduces this problem. 3/16th will definiteluy be heavier , but less prone to distortion and corrosion --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > it is round bilged. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:27:26 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: replating 1/8 steel with 3/16 plate > > > > > > Is it round bilged or hard chine? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > HI, > > I was trying to know if I could replate my steel classic(37ft) wich is made of 1/8 corteen steel on frames with 3/16 steel going section by section without distortion. > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Lisez vos courriels Hotmail sur votre téléphone. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9708127 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22594|22572|2010-02-20 16:03:43|brentswain38|Re: Gorge Harbour restrictions|There is a mish mash of jurisdictions. Feds own the water over it, the seabed is provincial. Shannon is federal navigable waters , the albrecht guy is provincial fisheries. Several years ago, an oyster lease was moored off the eastern end of the gorge near some residents. They were very confrontational and left a cement mixer full of oyster shells running day and night. Late one night , someone went out an broke up the big diesel generator with a sledgehammer. Then they fired the head of the oyster lease and replaced him with someone more diplomatic. Now they get along well. Seems history has to repeat itself.I wonder if they factored that intot heir cost estimates. I belie dumping a container of crystal swimming pool bleach there every time you go by may make them less profitable. There is no shortage of sheltered water too deep to anchor in, for oyster leases, where they will bother no one , even in the Gorge. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Brent, > > Thanks very much for this! > > Very clearly this guy is provincial. Fisheries & Oceans is Federal. Legally the two are completely separate water tight entities which may not, under ANY circumstances interchange, exchange, contract or arrange in any way shape or form ANY responcibilities of the other. At the same time we know they break the law on a regualr, daily, basis. So this guy Kenneth.Albrechtuy has no right whatsoever to have anything to do with it. Has he been told? > > At the same time, Alexandra Moulton has reciently forced the provincial government to obey the law and stop interfering (with regard to the fish farms in the Broughton Archepelago (sp) ) as it very clearly falls under federal jurisdiction. Now THAT is a woman with guts, dedication and integrity! > > If the tide passes over it, it's federal. Period. And if they do it anyway, perhaps monetary restriction would slow them down? Wouldn't repeated, regular fecal contamination of the crop effect sales of product by the subcontractor (s) who hold the oyster lease? How about if people started getting sick from their product? I wonder how often they would have to test their crop? Do you think they could afford to test 100% of the crop 100% of the time? > > If the guy who owns the oyster lease, as he would have to live on it to be sure that there are no....encroachments/whateve wouldn't he? what if he finds it impossible to buy groceries? what if he finds it impossible to buy fuel for his truck? his boat? How about if absolutely NOBODY will work on his equipment? What if he finds his wife is spit on and derided in public? his childeren chastised in school? the school bus will not provide service to take his kids to school? He can't buy a beer in the local? What if everyone was regularly flipping him and his family the bird as soon as they were recognized walking down the street or driving down the road? > > Is it illegal to have a piss on the beach? If it's federal owned, then why don't you and I have access to it? What if crouds of people just arrived on the beach (after a cup of tea perhaps?) and had a leak? or picked oysters? 500 of them at a time? What if it happened on a regular basis? What if they owners of the least had their pictures posted on every telephone pole asking people if they knew what this guy was up to? > > > What if he's labelled as something far less than desirable for the community? Could he afford to have 24 hour guards? What if he was unable to hire guards? Please note that I ask nothing but questions, but I wonder how many people would be interested in persueing an oyster lease if they knew what the reaction of the people in and around the community might possibly be? > > I get the distinct impression that this is a particularly creative bunch, don't you? Do you figure that we might just possibly be able to come up with a number of other creative ways to make the prospect of an oyster lease in Gorge Harbour particularly, very specifically, rather un-attractive? > > Has anyone posted anything on the local bulliten boards? Perhaps gerilla advertising might be the way to get the message across to any prospective lease holders? On the other hand, maybe the locals want a macdonalds and a huge petrochemical plant on the island? What do you think? > > Just asking. > > > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 > Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:14 am (PST) > > > There are plans to turn almost all of the western half of Gorge Harbour on Cortes Island BC into a huge oyster farm, eliminating one of the most popular anchorages on Cortes, and severely restricting access to the Marina there. They are in the public input stage at the moment . > To oppose the gradual takeover of BC public anchorages for industrial use, send your comments to Kenneth.Albrecht@ gov.bc.ca phone him at 250-751-7220 or fax him at 250-751-7224 or email Shannon.vollema@ tc.gc.ca the federal waterways rep. > Thanks > Brent > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Get the name you've always wanted @... or @...! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/ > | 22595|22572|2010-02-20 16:05:26|brentswain38|Re: Gorge Harbour restrictions|They have brought in such restrictions here, so we just go to a remote bay where the control freaks never show, and do whatever we please, --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > I hate to see this happening we have a similar problem here we have been able to beach a boat here for repairs for up to 3 months and then move off and sum are trying to eliminate this .Plus the beaucrats seem to like thinking up new rules to cover there existance in Aust > Seemingly fix one prolem and create new problems > Cheers Hg > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > There are plans to turn almost all of the western half of Gorge Harbour on Cortes Island BC into a huge oyster farm, eliminating one of the most popular anchorages on Cortes, and severely restricting access to the Marina there. They are in the public input stage at the moment . > > To oppose the gradual takeover of BC public anchorages for industrial use, send your comments to Kenneth.Albrecht@ phone him at 250-751-7220 or fax him at 250-751-7224 or email Shannon.vollema@ the federal waterways rep. > > Thanks > > Brent > > > | 22596|22558|2010-02-20 16:07:20|brentswain38|Brent'stove chemney condensation|If you can't find an elbow that wont leak, weld your own up. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hi Scott > you probally know this but becareful of some woods maybe have been treated some reason or another out of over seas containers ect. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Scott, > > I am using left overs of hard wood from the pallet co. and also those manufactured logs.(the long lasting ones)My chemney is about 1 1/2 foot over my camper top. > > > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: s.knudsen@ > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:05:47 -0600 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Brent'stove chemney condensation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, > > > > > > > > You using dry wood? Shouldn't have any creosote with a hot fire and dry > > > > wood. > > > > > > > > Also, to get the proper draw you need to make sure you have a long > > > > enough chimney for whatever altitude you are at. > > > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > I just finished welding a little stove like the plan in your book and I > > > > am using it in my 22ft camper to test it.A lot of condensation (or > > > > something else) is happening in the chemney and some of that brown stuff > > > > is now dropping on the floor under the 90deg elbow. Is there a way to > > > > avoid it? > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22597|22586|2010-02-20 16:07:24|brentswain38|Re: Ancor winch wire rope|Yes, lots of grease will protect it to some degree. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Just been reading Brents book > I have an old school mate the runs a window cleaning business in the city cleans high rise buildings I havent seen it for a while but he has offered me wire rope for free from the lifts they use on the sides of these sky scrapers they have to by law replace it every year I think its 5/16 or 3/8 but no weather protection on the rope could I untilize this if it was replace regularly ?or protect it with some thing > | 22598|22586|2010-02-21 05:39:48|tropical_breeze52|Re: Ancor winch wire rope|Hi I know of place here than do hot dip galvanising Im not to sure if they will do old rope but this stuff looks like new the last time he asked and Im sure it would be hi tensile or it would be the best as work place Aurthority(Gov dept) here are really strick on the quailty they would have to have the best but Ill ring him tomorrow There a few old sails on ebay 10 year old mainly bay work probbally fogged to death a couple with luff of around the 45 to 47 ft off those bunnetoes french thingys Ha main $350 45 luff Jib 50 ft $345 been on a 42 ft benny toe not sure of any one opinion on this? but they are tidy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > Yes, lots of grease will protect it to some degree. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Just been reading Brents book > > I have an old school mate the runs a window cleaning business in the city cleans high rise buildings I havent seen it for a while but he has offered me wire rope for free from the lifts they use on the sides of these sky scrapers they have to by law replace it every year I think its 5/16 or 3/8 but no weather protection on the rope could I untilize this if it was replace regularly ?or protect it with some thing > > > | 22599|22565|2010-02-21 05:55:53|tropical_breeze52|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|HI Graig Is called a boswell its not a expensive unit 15 amp single phrase seems to work ok all I want it for is this build then is gone as Mr J Plonk1 (another origami menber) has put a few photos in here hes ahead with pots of stainless parts made so I better get some stainless done and post some photos also Ha Ha Hg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hotelechovictorkilo" wrote: > > Hi > > What brand did you go for? I am shopping now. Is yours single phase or 3 phase, I dont have 3 phase power. > > Craig > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Guys > > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. > > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. > > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > | 22600|22588|2010-02-21 06:02:52|tropical_breeze52|Re: Bought & tried out Plazma cutter today|All I had in mind was a slow spinning drum with the main halard rope just looped around it and holdiing the halard by hand so if any thing got caught up let the rope go slack so it slips. Any way I hope I dont get to old to pull the main up by hand --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hey Paul & Hg, > > Years ago met an Aussie with a round bilge steelie who had a hydraulic motor set up on his anchor winch. Said it worked a treat for those sticky situations you mentioned. Also said SS "cheeks" as he called them, were essentail to protect the hull from the anchor when raising/lowering it. > > Not too sure about using hydraulics for raising the main tho... pulling the headboard through the masthead sheave, or ripping the tack out of your main might dampen a days sail... > > > > > > Hi Paul > I have been think also of running a couple of steel Hydraulic lines for the main halard(cap them for now) and if needed when Im older fitting a simple slip drum off a small hydraulic motor then to raise the main. > A few other things have entered my head like ketch or cutter rig for sail handeling when your older but K.I.S.S must prevail always > rule number one. > Brents right when he says the lines get tangled mainly when you dont want them to. As if there is a god he likes comedy when he looks down at at our worst senario and laughs at our expense > Cheers Hg > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > | 22601|22572|2010-02-21 06:11:56|tropical_breeze52|Re: Gorge Harbour restrictions|Thats one of the reasons Ill be making one of your water makers get right away from the rules and regs . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > They have brought in such restrictions here, so we just go to a remote bay where the control freaks never show, and do whatever we please, > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > I hate to see this happening we have a similar problem here we have been able to beach a boat here for repairs for up to 3 months and then move off and sum are trying to eliminate this .Plus the beaucrats seem to like thinking up new rules to cover there existance in Aust > > Seemingly fix one prolem and create new problems > > Cheers Hg > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > There are plans to turn almost all of the western half of Gorge Harbour on Cortes Island BC into a huge oyster farm, eliminating one of the most popular anchorages on Cortes, and severely restricting access to the Marina there. They are in the public input stage at the moment . > > > To oppose the gradual takeover of BC public anchorages for industrial use, send your comments to Kenneth.Albrecht@ phone him at 250-751-7220 or fax him at 250-751-7224 or email Shannon.vollema@ the federal waterways rep. > > > Thanks > > > Brent > > > > > > | 22602|22565|2010-02-21 10:20:33|James Pronk|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Hg I have the same kind of plasma cutter, just a little 40 amp, 220 volt Chinese inverter. I had a lincoln pro-cut 55 (about $3000.00) with a 50 foot long led for the torch, till some thieving bastard help them self to it (and about $4000 of other tools and equipment). I like the little $500 inverter better, way cheaper to run, the torch is nice and small and it cuts just as well through 1/4" material.  I find that you just need to cut slow through 1/4" stainless and turn up you air pressure a little (about 10psi). James --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: From: tropical_breeze52 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 5:55 AM   HI Graig Is called a boswell its not a expensive unit 15 amp single phrase seems to work ok all I want it for is this build then is gone as Mr J Plonk1 (another origami menber) has put a few photos in here hes ahead with pots of stainless parts made so I better get some stainless done and post some photos also Ha Ha Hg --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "hotelechovictorkil o" wrote: > > Hi > > What brand did you go for? I am shopping now. Is yours single phase or 3 phase, I dont have 3 phase power. > > Craig > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Guys > > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. > > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. > > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22603|22565|2010-02-21 14:49:49|Gord Schnell|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Nick Having trouble visualizing that ladder mechanism.....can you give us more description? Gord On 20-Feb-10, at 6:21 AM, Nick Arios wrote: > I agree, lines led aft are increasing the friction and cost and > provide small benefit. The mainsail often needs to be hand pulled > forward to get a smooth crease when reefed and you cannot do that > from the cockpit. An interesting idea from a couple that > circumnavigated on a Catalina 36 is to weld a ladder like > contraption on the boom that acts as both a place for the main to > rest as well as handhold as you go to the mast. > > Cheers, > Nick > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Wilson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 3:18:25 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter > today > > I see little difference between ease of sailing between the 36 and 31. > With roller furling and slab reefing, either one is very easy to > single-hand. I have met many people who think a larger boat about 40 > or > 45 feet is easier to sail offshore than a smaller one due to it being > less lively. As long as everything works, I tend to agree. At one > extreme, however, I have a friend who single-hands a 65 foot ferro > boat. It's mainsail is from a Santa Cruz 52 and he is 67 years old. > It's impossible to lift the sails on your own. He struggles at times > but he says he "needs to be organized" and only anchors and uses a > mooring. Docking and maneuvering a boat in a tight marina is the > challenge when it comes to size in my opinion. The smaller the > better. Personally, given a choice between a 31 and a 36 , I would > definitely go for the 36. > > I have never had any lines going aft on my boat although I have sailed > on other boats that did. Personally, I have never seen the advantage > of > having lines aft. As Brent says, it seems to me there are always snags > and snarls as well as lots of friction. Having the lines at the mast > is > simple and keeps a lot of line out of the cockpit which gets crowded > enough as it is. With good hand holds and something to brace against > near the mast like a stay or pulpit, working at the mast is never a > problem other than getting wet. > > Cheers, Paul > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > I once led my mainsheet aft. When it came time to drop the main , > I'd > > get it halfway down and the halyard would snarl around something in > > the cockpit so it would take several trips from the cockpit to the > > mast to get it down. Gave up on that idea quickly. > > The detailing for the 31 and 36 are almost identical, so there is > not > > much time advantage in the smaller boat. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > , Carl Anderson > wrote: > > > > > > Great on getting a plasma cutter. You will find it one of the most > > > useful tools for the construction of a steel hull. It is useful > from > > > day one for cutting the hull & deck plates right down to cutting > the > > > last piece of stainless you will be using for the detailing. > Good show! > > > > > > The most important question that you have here is about the size > of > > your > > > boat NOT about HOW to build it! > > > What you have to answer is: are you going to be single-handing > most or > > > all of the time? > > > > > > To create a boat for single-handing I would think that the 31 > footer > > > would be your best bet as that keeps the sail area per sail down a > > > little making sail handling easier. Ease of sail handling can be > > > accomplished on a larger boat as well. One thing regarding this > aspect > > > of sailing would be to plan for an "all lines lead aft" design > in your > > > running rigging. This may require some deep thinking about the > layout > > > of all the cabintop items you will have. Some forethought into the > > > layout of the running rigging coming from the mast is definitely > > > required to make this work out for the best. > > > > > > One modification that I am making to MOM's running rigging this > winter > > > is accommodation to be able to reef the main from both sides of > the > > > boom. This was suggested by the owner of the "G.D. Higgins" as > > > something to have. As Cosmo put it: "You should think about > being able > > > to always reef from the high side of the boat". Yes this makes > for more > > > complexity and additional hardware but after only one season > sailing I > > > can see the wisdom in his advise. The other alternative is to > have all > > > your reefing lines led aft through turning blocks & such. > > > > > > What you will find in building the larger hull (36 foot plates) > is more > > > storage options with the larger space inside. The boat builder > that I > > > hired to build our hull (and worked along side for 10 months) > said that > > > the time difference between the 31 footer & 36 footer was not a > > > significant increase. > > > > > > In getting our boat together and planning on 2 people living > inside we > > > have been making many compromises regarding what and how much of > > > anything we can take aboard. It is amazing how fast a 36 foot > boat will > > > fill up with "stuff" that you think is essential! > > > > > > Plan accordingly. > > > > > > Carl > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22604|22565|2010-02-21 15:09:15|tropical_breeze52|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Thanks James I was wondering what air pressure and amps I would need for 3/16 5mm) hull plate I have 4 x 4 wood which I thought of using to lift the sheets off the groung before cutting would this be enough space to stop any blow back I have been thinking about some way of using a batton of some sort even a thin steel strap tacked the the plate from the layout and using as a guide when cutting or those magnetic squares holding the batton. And make a washer the same size as the cutter to line the baton up for cutting I have a while to think about that but as you get older your cutting gets a bit wobbly. maybe using a washer ( same size as the torch) off the batton so it gives you an easy quick way to get the batton set up for cutting. hopfully if I can sort some thing less chance of a stuff up --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hg > I have the same kind of plasma cutter, just a little 40 amp, 220 volt Chinese inverter. > I had a lincoln pro-cut 55 (about $3000.00) with a 50 foot long led for the torch, till some thieving bastard help them self to it (and about $4000 of other tools and equipment). > I like the little $500 inverter better, way cheaper to run, the torch is nice and small and it cuts just as well through 1/4" material. >  I find that you just need to cut slow through 1/4" stainless and turn up you air pressure a little (about 10psi). > James > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > From: tropical_breeze52 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 5:55 AM > > >   > > > > HI Graig > Is called a boswell its not a expensive unit 15 amp single phrase > seems to work ok all I want it for is this build then is gone > as Mr J Plonk1 (another origami menber) has put a few photos in here hes ahead with pots of stainless parts made so I better get some stainless done and post some photos also Ha Ha > Hg > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "hotelechovictorkil o" wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > What brand did you go for? I am shopping now. Is yours single phase or 3 phase, I dont have 3 phase power. > > > > Craig > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys > > > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. > > > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > > > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > > > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > > > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. > > > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22605|22605|2010-02-21 15:29:37|tropical_breeze52|Brents Dingy|I was wondering if they were any plans around for Brents dingy| 22606|22565|2010-02-21 16:27:26|James Pronk|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Hello Hg I think mine is using about 50 psi but I will have a look tonight. As for amps I always run mine at about 75% of max all the time (max with 1/4" stainless) and just change the cutting speed. I have tried using a batten with some luck. I use a piece of 1/4" round, tack it down ,off set, along a straight line let it cool then flex the loose end to the curve line. I weld small bolts upright to the plate and wire the 1/4 round to the bolts. I have tried to tack weld the batten down as I bent it but I would get a kink in the batten from the heat. I could try to post photos of how I do this. James --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: From: tropical_breeze52 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 3:07 PM   Thanks James I was wondering what air pressure and amps I would need for 3/16 5mm) hull plate I have 4 x 4 wood which I thought of using to lift the sheets off the groung before cutting would this be enough space to stop any blow back I have been thinking about some way of using a batton of some sort even a thin steel strap tacked the the plate from the layout and using as a guide when cutting or those magnetic squares holding the batton. And make a washer the same size as the cutter to line the baton up for cutting I have a while to think about that but as you get older your cutting gets a bit wobbly. maybe using a washer ( same size as the torch) off the batton so it gives you an easy quick way to get the batton set up for cutting. hopfully if I can sort some thing less chance of a stuff up --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hg > I have the same kind of plasma cutter, just a little 40 amp, 220 volt Chinese inverter. > I had a lincoln pro-cut 55 (about $3000.00) with a 50 foot long led for the torch, till some thieving bastard help them self to it (and about $4000 of other tools and equipment). > I like the little $500 inverter better, way cheaper to run, the torch is nice and small and it cuts just as well through 1/4" material. >  I find that you just need to cut slow through 1/4" stainless and turn up you air pressure a little (about 10psi) . > James > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > From: tropical_breeze52 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Received: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 5:55 AM > > >   > > > > HI Graig > Is called a boswell its not a expensive unit 15 amp single phrase > seems to work ok all I want it for is this build then is gone > as Mr J Plonk1 (another origami menber) has put a few photos in here hes ahead with pots of stainless parts made so I better get some stainless done and post some photos also Ha Ha > Hg > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "hotelechovictorkil o" wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > What brand did you go for? I am shopping now. Is yours single phase or 3 phase, I dont have 3 phase power. > > > > Craig > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys > > > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. > > > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > > > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > > > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > > > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. > > > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________________________ Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22607|22605|2010-02-21 16:49:59|Helmut Schlager|Re: Brents Dingy|me too! helmut ropical_breeze52 schrieb: > > I was wondering if they were any plans around for Brents dingy > > | 22608|22565|2010-02-21 23:09:55|Aaron Williams|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Some machines with 40 amps will cut everything up to 1/2" steel except any 1/2" SS or 1/2" aluminum. Most machines need 60+ lbs air pressure. I have a Hypertherm power max 600 and it works great with no troubles in 5 years. I used 4x4 to raise my sheets off the ground but 2x4 is plenty. As you get older give an old guy a break I am sure there are several old guys here that still have more finesse than a saber toothed tiger. Primer is a torch killer but plasma dosent even know its there. Aaron --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: From: tropical_breeze52 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 11:07 AM   Thanks James I was wondering what air pressure and amps I would need for 3/16 5mm) hull plate I have 4 x 4 wood which I thought of using to lift the sheets off the groung before cutting would this be enough space to stop any blow back I have been thinking about some way of using a batton of some sort even a thin steel strap tacked the the plate from the layout and using as a guide when cutting or those magnetic squares holding the batton. And make a washer the same size as the cutter to line the baton up for cutting I have a while to think about that but as you get older your cutting gets a bit wobbly. maybe using a washer ( same size as the torch) off the batton so it gives you an easy quick way to get the batton set up for cutting. hopfully if I can sort some thing less chance of a stuff up --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hg > I have the same kind of plasma cutter, just a little 40 amp, 220 volt Chinese inverter. > I had a lincoln pro-cut 55 (about $3000.00) with a 50 foot long led for the torch, till some thieving bastard help them self to it (and about $4000 of other tools and equipment). > I like the little $500 inverter better, way cheaper to run, the torch is nice and small and it cuts just as well through 1/4" material. >  I find that you just need to cut slow through 1/4" stainless and turn up you air pressure a little (about 10psi) . > James > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > From: tropical_breeze52 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Received: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 5:55 AM > > >   > > > > HI Graig > Is called a boswell its not a expensive unit 15 amp single phrase > seems to work ok all I want it for is this build then is gone > as Mr J Plonk1 (another origami menber) has put a few photos in here hes ahead with pots of stainless parts made so I better get some stainless done and post some photos also Ha Ha > Hg > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "hotelechovictorkil o" wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > What brand did you go for? I am shopping now. Is yours single phase or 3 phase, I dont have 3 phase power. > > > > Craig > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys > > > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. > > > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > > > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > > > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > > > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. > > > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22609|22565|2010-02-22 01:13:02|tropical_breeze52|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Hi James I was wondering about trying thin steel as a batton and using those magnetic squares to hold on to the stips of steel and hold down on the hull plate. I did place a photo in here its a quick start but will still take me a while to catch up to you Cheers Hg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hello Hg > I think mine is using about 50 psi but I will have a look tonight. As for amps I always run mine at about 75% of max all the time (max with 1/4" stainless) and just change the cutting speed. > I have tried using a batten with some luck. I use a piece of 1/4" round, tack it down ,off set, along a straight line let it cool then flex the loose end to the curve line. I weld small bolts upright to the plate and wire the 1/4 round to the bolts. I have tried to tack weld the batten down as I bent it but I would get a kink in the batten from the heat. > I could try to post photos of how I do this. > James > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > From: tropical_breeze52 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 3:07 PM > > >   > > > > Thanks James > I was wondering what air pressure and amps I would need for 3/16 5mm) hull plate I have 4 x 4 wood which I thought of using to lift the sheets off the groung before cutting would this be enough space > to stop any blow back > I have been thinking about some way of using a batton of some sort even a thin steel strap tacked the the plate from the layout and using as a guide when cutting or those magnetic squares holding the batton. And make a washer the same size as the cutter to line the baton up for cutting I have a while to think about that but as you get older your cutting gets a bit wobbly. maybe using a washer ( same size as the torch) off the batton so it gives you an easy quick way to get the batton set up for cutting. hopfully if I can sort some thing less chance of a stuff up > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Hg > > I have the same kind of plasma cutter, just a little 40 amp, 220 volt Chinese inverter. > > I had a lincoln pro-cut 55 (about $3000.00) with a 50 foot long led for the torch, till some thieving bastard help them self to it (and about $4000 of other tools and equipment). > > I like the little $500 inverter better, way cheaper to run, the torch is nice and small and it cuts just as well through 1/4" material. > >  I find that you just need to cut slow through 1/4" stainless and turn up you air pressure a little (about 10psi) . > > James > > > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > > > > From: tropical_breeze52 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Received: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 5:55 AM > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > HI Graig > > Is called a boswell its not a expensive unit 15 amp single phrase > > seems to work ok all I want it for is this build then is gone > > as Mr J Plonk1 (another origami menber) has put a few photos in here hes ahead with pots of stainless parts made so I better get some stainless done and post some photos also Ha Ha > > Hg > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "hotelechovictorkil o" wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > What brand did you go for? I am shopping now. Is yours single phase or 3 phase, I dont have 3 phase power. > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Guys > > > > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. > > > > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > > > > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > > > > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > > > > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. > > > > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22610|22000|2010-02-22 01:32:53|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I could not talk out myself to be "my own designer" ;) After playing with different software I came up with a "draft" of the hull's pattern. More likely not as good as Brent's design, but workable. I made quick model from "Letter" size paper. Pictures are here: http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/IMG_BS40_v29_U_v07_1.JPG?hl=en http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/IMG_BS40_v29_U_v07_2.JPG?hl=en http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/IMG_BS40_v29_U_v07_3.JPG?hl=en http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/IMG_BS40_v29_U_v07_4.JPG?hl=en http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/IMG_BS40_v29_U_v07_5.JPG?hl=en Does anybody wants to test it on bigger paper size (if you have bigger printer or plotter)? I would like to have a feedback if model fits - it is easier to see errors on bigger model. Any takers? Let me know ;) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > You guys need to visit the Rhino newsgroup and ask about the guy doing > animal sculpture from sheetmetal. He models it in Rhino, has it CNC cut and > tig welds it together. Picture how hard it would be to weld up a 17 foot > tall realistic looking Giraffe from 16 gauge sheet if it didn't fit > PERFECTLY! A boat is trivial compared to what this guy does. > > Gary H. Lucas | 22611|22565|2010-02-22 03:28:05|tropical_breeze52|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Hi James It the book the cutter came with says it will cut 16mm but Id dont thing it would but it does cut 1/2 mild steel easy . Temp is surposted to be around 12000 to 15000 celius quoting from the book I should be getting some steel tomorrow from the crane dept so Ill try it out then when I get it they have some heavy sheets laying around so I can cut my keel bootm plate buy thr plasma wont be big enough for that probally 1 inch but it was free like the keel bars so Im not unhappy about it --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Hello Hg > I think mine is using about 50 psi but I will have a look tonight. As for amps I always run mine at about 75% of max all the time (max with 1/4" stainless) and just change the cutting speed. > I have tried using a batten with some luck. I use a piece of 1/4" round, tack it down ,off set, along a straight line let it cool then flex the loose end to the curve line. I weld small bolts upright to the plate and wire the 1/4 round to the bolts. I have tried to tack weld the batten down as I bent it but I would get a kink in the batten from the heat. > I could try to post photos of how I do this. > James > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > From: tropical_breeze52 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 3:07 PM > > >   > > > > Thanks James > I was wondering what air pressure and amps I would need for 3/16 5mm) hull plate I have 4 x 4 wood which I thought of using to lift the sheets off the groung before cutting would this be enough space > to stop any blow back > I have been thinking about some way of using a batton of some sort even a thin steel strap tacked the the plate from the layout and using as a guide when cutting or those magnetic squares holding the batton. And make a washer the same size as the cutter to line the baton up for cutting I have a while to think about that but as you get older your cutting gets a bit wobbly. maybe using a washer ( same size as the torch) off the batton so it gives you an easy quick way to get the batton set up for cutting. hopfully if I can sort some thing less chance of a stuff up > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Hg > > I have the same kind of plasma cutter, just a little 40 amp, 220 volt Chinese inverter. > > I had a lincoln pro-cut 55 (about $3000.00) with a 50 foot long led for the torch, till some thieving bastard help them self to it (and about $4000 of other tools and equipment). > > I like the little $500 inverter better, way cheaper to run, the torch is nice and small and it cuts just as well through 1/4" material. > >  I find that you just need to cut slow through 1/4" stainless and turn up you air pressure a little (about 10psi) . > > James > > > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > > > > From: tropical_breeze52 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Received: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 5:55 AM > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > HI Graig > > Is called a boswell its not a expensive unit 15 amp single phrase > > seems to work ok all I want it for is this build then is gone > > as Mr J Plonk1 (another origami menber) has put a few photos in here hes ahead with pots of stainless parts made so I better get some stainless done and post some photos also Ha Ha > > Hg > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "hotelechovictorkil o" wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > What brand did you go for? I am shopping now. Is yours single phase or 3 phase, I dont have 3 phase power. > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Guys > > > > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. > > > > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > > > > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > > > > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > > > > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. > > > > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22612|22549|2010-02-22 04:25:34|tropical_breeze52|Re: Re Keel for the 36 footer|Hi Brent I filed the shaft quite easily today and it bruises easily but Ill do a welded test and see what if I can break it with the press at work tomorrow but I think if was mistakenly bought for bucket pins which really need harden sharft so its been sitting there for many many years just waiting for me so I have 2, 4foot lenghts Hg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 2 1/2 inch will work well. Try welding a test piece on in then whack it with a sledgehammer to test the weld. Some shaft is high tensile which calls for special welding t=4chniques. Alex had that problem and he had to use different welding methods for the steel he had. > thicker plate for the bottoms is great, the thicker the better. Just subtract the extra weight from your ballast. When my last boat pounded on the rocks for several weeks, the half inch plate on the bottom of her keel was dented in deeply. > For my current boat, I had some 1 1/4 inch spring steel , unweldable, so I cut it to the keel shape, put it inside, and poured the lead ballast on top of it. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent > > Wanted to ask a question I found some 65 mm (21/2") solid bar today at work which my boss said I could have > > Which is a bit smaller than the 4 inch I told you about . Would this be better to use or I dont mind moding the 4 " to suit either. > > Ill be build the keels in the workshop at work so I have every thing I need there so it will have absolute maximum penitration and be built like the pruvebial bick shit house excuse the expression. > > also would it make much differece if the bottom keel was thicker than 1/2 plate as I might be able to find a free bee for both bottom keels plates maybe 1 inch plate. ( just in case a submarine tries to surface underneath me ) > > Cheers Hg02 > > > | 22613|22000|2010-02-22 05:04:24|Jonathan Stevens|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Fun playing with shapes, isn't it? I used Freeship myself. I designed a boat with a single chine al the way, got Freeship to plot the strakes and then fiddled about with a few models to get the darts right. The beauty about Freeship is it does all those calculations like displacement and so on for you. Change the draft and it does them again. A good tool. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22614|22000|2010-02-22 12:59:01|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I am looking at Brent's design for several month already. After doing my own research and playing with all kind of software, I even more impressed now, that Brent was able to come up with his design long time ago without any computer's help. Computers now just allow to "polish" his idea. If Brent's plans were better documented and had more details for amateur boat builder like me, I would not even bother to do "my own design". It is just very nice to have the boat in 3D. Paper model, by the way, allows to see what kind of problems you will face during folding process of real hull. Very helpful... You are right, Freeship is a good tool. It allows to get "pseudo dynamic" characteristics by changing water line settings of the model. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Fun playing with shapes, isn't it? I used Freeship myself. I designed a boat > with a single chine al the way, got Freeship to plot the strakes and then > fiddled about with a few models to get the darts right. The beauty about > Freeship is it does all those calculations like displacement and so on for > you. Change the draft and it does them again. A good tool. | 22615|22000|2010-02-22 13:16:22|James Pronk|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Wild You could photo copy your printout on to transparency and project it with an over head projector. Then you can make it quit big and on material heavier then paper. James --- On Mon, 2/22/10, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, February 22, 2010, 12:58 PM   I am looking at Brent's design for several month already. After doing my own research and playing with all kind of software, I even more impressed now, that Brent was able to come up with his design long time ago without any computer's help. Computers now just allow to "polish" his idea. If Brent's plans were better documented and had more details for amateur boat builder like me, I would not even bother to do "my own design". It is just very nice to have the boat in 3D. Paper model, by the way, allows to see what kind of problems you will face during folding process of real hull. Very helpful... You are right, Freeship is a good tool. It allows to get "pseudo dynamic" characteristics by changing water line settings of the model. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Fun playing with shapes, isn't it? I used Freeship myself. I designed a boat > with a single chine al the way, got Freeship to plot the strakes and then > fiddled about with a few models to get the darts right. The beauty about > Freeship is it does all those calculations like displacement and so on for > you. Change the draft and it does them again. A good tool. __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22616|22000|2010-02-22 15:28:20|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Thanks, Good idea if there is no big printer/plotter around. I will try to find bigger copier/printer/plotter first, to enlarge my printout - overhead projector needs very precise adjustment to avoid image distortion. I would like to make hull's model from a cardboard at 1:10 scale as the next step. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > Wild > You could photo copy your printout on to transparency and project it with an over head projector. Then you can make it quit big and on material heavier then paper. > James | 22617|22605|2010-02-22 16:21:00|brentswain38|Re: Brents Dingy|Just scale up the pattern in my book. Do a bit of trail and error with a sheet of cardboard, modify as desired. If I were doing it again, I'd make the transom and bottom wider . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > I was wondering if they were any plans around for Brents dingy > | 22618|22618|2010-02-22 18:31:08|Gord Schnell|Fwd: Proposed oyster farm. Gorge Harbor, Cortes Island, BC|Apparently it is a Provincial decision. Give them "both barrels" everyone. Gord Begin forwarded message: > From: "Albrecht, Kenneth AL:EX" > Date: February 22, 2010 1:36:25 PM PST (CA) > To: Gord Schnell > Subject: RE: Proposed oyster farm. Gorge Harbor, Cortes Island, BC > > Dear Gord Schnell, > Thank you for your email regarding the application by the Klahoose > First > Nation for a shellfish tenure in Gorge Harbour. Although this > application is location in marine water (Federal jurisdiction), the > proposed structures will be attached to the sea floor (Provincial > jurisdiction) which will require Provincial approval in the form of a > Crown Land tenure. > > I have placed a copy of your response on file and your concerns will > be > taken into consideration when I complete my review of the application. > > Ken Albrecht > Technical Lands Officer > Ministry of Agriculture and Lands > Nanaimo > 250-751-3106 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gord Schnell [mailto:gschnell@...] > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 7:27 PM > To: Shannon.vollema@... > Cc: Albrecht, Kenneth AL:EX > Subject: Proposed oyster farm. Gorge Harbor, Cortes Island, BC > > I believe this a Federal issue, since the tide does pass in and out of > Gorge Harbor. A proposed oyster farm in this beautiful and very > popular harbor is abhorent. > As a sailor and a member of the Bluewater Cruising Association, I feel > we must all work to block this development and others like it. > Block this farm now and make it clear, other potential developments, > that we will not give up the rights and enjoyment of thousands for an > oyster farm. > Stop them now! > > Gordon Schnell > 4693 Boundary Road > Richmond, BC > 604-728-4704 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22619|22000|2010-02-22 18:49:32|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Here is how my "hull project" looks like in 3D: http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/3D_view_1.JPG http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/3D_view_2.JPG Looks better than paper model. I need to learn how to weld and start doing it in metal.. ;) Just kidding - it is LONG way to go with boat design even to get close to finished product ;) Would be somebody interested to participate in "3D Origamiboat project"? Something different than existing Brent's plans? He did excellent job to master his design. Do not count on me as a designer - I can just do some "dirty work" to put it in 3D.| 22620|22000|2010-02-22 20:34:44|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Just a little warning here. What you did looks very nice, a little too nice. The hull has a lot of compound curvature, which freeship allowed you to do. Brent's hull has very little compound curvature, because it is mostly conical sections which only have curvature in one direction. Yours assembles in paper because paper is very flexible and has little stiffness. I would trace your pattern onto a sheet of thin steel or aluminum and then try pulling the edges together. You could drill holes along all the edges so you can do the pulling using tie wire, without the need to weld. This would let you prove it could be pulled together. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "wild_explorer" To: Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 6:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? > Here is how my "hull project" looks like in 3D: > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/3D_view_1.JPG > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/3D_view_2.JPG > > Looks better than paper model. I need to learn how to weld and start doing > it in metal.. ;) > > Just kidding - it is LONG way to go with boat design even to get close to > finished product ;) > > Would be somebody interested to participate in "3D Origamiboat project"? > Something different than existing Brent's plans? He did excellent job to > master his design. Do not count on me as a designer - I can just do some > "dirty work" to put it in 3D. > > > > | 22621|22000|2010-02-22 21:02:48|markh|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Speaking of Paper Models----In WoodenBoat many moons, nay years ago there was an article about an interesting couple that built a catamaran to go from England to Noth america (near North America) to check out some Circus Horses of all things which they built out of split not cut wood and lashed together and covered with 8 plus layers of tarred butcher paper. Last heard they were somewhere on the Pacific off Costa Rica. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO--my challenge to you is to build an Origami boat out of tarred paper-show them welding is for Sissy's (cardboard would be acceptable) and Duct Tape--glue guns too (The Handy Mans Friend) and submit it to the --Red Green Show. If you aren't Canadian--look it up on line--eh. All the Best www.redgreen.com ----- Original Message ----- From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 3:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? Here is how my "hull project" looks like in 3D: http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/3D_view_1.JPG http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/3D_view_2.JPG Looks better than paper model. I need to learn how to weld and start doing it in metal.. ;) Just kidding - it is LONG way to go with boat design even to get close to finished product ;) Would be somebody interested to participate in "3D Origamiboat project"? Something different than existing Brent's plans? He did excellent job to master his design. Do not count on me as a designer - I can just do some "dirty work" to put it in 3D. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22622|22000|2010-02-22 21:33:36|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Well, I spent a lot of time to get rid of "knuckles" where hard chine section changes to smooth curvature. It was visible only in 3D. In my opinion, thin paper does not stretch and forms "knuckles" more easier than metal. When I tried the pattern from file section, I could not avoid "knuckles" in the model. Mine pattern needs more work, but it does not have "knuckles" so far (made from the same paper). Need to try thicker and stronger paper. Garry, thanks for brilliant idea about drilling holes. Folding paper model, I have noticed that edges are pulled easier if you apply force along full length of the edge. Wire would be perfect to apply such force and align edges. The other thing I noticed, that it is easier to put the halves together and align them if halves turned over. It is very unpractical during real hull construction - just an observation. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Brent's hull has very little compound curvature, because it is > mostly conical sections which only have curvature in one direction. Yours > assembles in paper because paper is very flexible and has little stiffness. > I would trace your pattern onto a sheet of thin steel or aluminum and then > try pulling the edges together. You could drill holes along all the edges > so you can do the pulling using tie wire, without the need to weld. This > would let you prove it could be pulled together. > > Gary H. Lucas | 22623|22000|2010-02-23 03:16:58|tropical_breeze52|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|HI It might be fun playing with paper and creating boat shapes but there a lot more to it than that.any design be it boat or car once you modify it things change on an car for example you increase the horse power and then the transmission needs to be made stronger the handel the horse power and down the power train including the diff and then as you have increased the speed you need better brakes to stop and as you are going around bend you need better handeling. If you choose not to some thing will go wrong or worst. Boats can be a bigger nightmare There would be no way I would sail in one of your boats or build one as it would be a waste of steel time and money Wild explorer. Ill stick to a proven design and use K.I.S.S Thanks all the best Wild You could have got a second job bought Brents plane and started building by now instead you are doing O playing with paper Or dont you want to sail and do some wild exploring Cheers Hg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I am looking at Brent's design for several month already. After doing my own research and playing with all kind of software, I even more impressed now, that Brent was able to come up with his design long time ago without any computer's help. Computers now just allow to "polish" his idea. If Brent's plans were better documented and had more details for amateur boat builder like me, I would not even bother to do "my own design". It is just very nice to have the boat in 3D. > > Paper model, by the way, allows to see what kind of problems you will face during folding process of real hull. Very helpful... > > You are right, Freeship is a good tool. It allows to get "pseudo dynamic" characteristics by changing water line settings of the model. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > > > Fun playing with shapes, isn't it? I used Freeship myself. I designed a boat > > with a single chine al the way, got Freeship to plot the strakes and then > > fiddled about with a few models to get the darts right. The beauty about > > Freeship is it does all those calculations like displacement and so on for > > you. Change the draft and it does them again. A good tool. > | 22624|22000|2010-02-23 05:28:16|tropical_breeze52|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Also Wild explorer I once saw a Hospital computer generated once it was built they found many problems example no one could find the light switches because they had been computer drawn in behind the curtains and when they wanted to move a pacient to the operating room they couldnt use the trolly because it wouldnt fit in the pacients room and be turned so the pacient could be slipped on to the trolly the list could go on and on. lots and lots of variables and I guess when Brent made his first boat he found some vaiable that he hadnt considered and as his expirance living on the sea he has also added many great practical ideas to this build Ill stick to a human design any day.Im not saying computers are bad I love them and have built many fast and furious ones with all the lastest CPUs Solid state hard drives and all the rest http://s809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/HG02_photo/I7%20965%20rig/ like this one it can be taken on a plane as hand luggage it wieght about the same as a lap top and runs 2 SSDs I7 965 CPU a thin laptop dvd blue ray and ATI 5870x2 graphics cards its one bad boy its been around the world in more places than you and I will have ever been USA Canada Europe Brintain and New Zeland I quickly folded the case in a weekend and it all fits in a very small carry on bag all under 7 Kilos as Quantus wanted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > HI It might be fun playing with paper and creating boat shapes but there a lot more to it than that.any design be it boat or car once you modify it things change on an car for example you increase the horse power and then the transmission needs to be made stronger the handel the horse power and down the power train including the diff and then as you have increased the speed you need better brakes to stop and as you are going around bend you need better handeling. > If you choose not to some thing will go wrong or worst. Boats can be a bigger nightmare There would be no way I would sail in one of your boats or build one as it would be a waste of steel time and money > Wild explorer. > Ill stick to a proven design and use K.I.S.S Thanks > all the best Wild > You could have got a second job bought Brents plane and started building by now instead you are doing O playing with paper > Or dont you want to sail and do some wild exploring > Cheers Hg > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > I am looking at Brent's design for several month already. After doing my own research and playing with all kind of software, I even more impressed now, that Brent was able to come up with his design long time ago without any computer's help. Computers now just allow to "polish" his idea. If Brent's plans were better documented and had more details for amateur boat builder like me, I would not even bother to do "my own design". It is just very nice to have the boat in 3D. > > > > Paper model, by the way, allows to see what kind of problems you will face during folding process of real hull. Very helpful... > > > > You are right, Freeship is a good tool. It allows to get "pseudo dynamic" characteristics by changing water line settings of the model. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > > > > > Fun playing with shapes, isn't it? I used Freeship myself. I designed a boat > > > with a single chine al the way, got Freeship to plot the strakes and then > > > fiddled about with a few models to get the darts right. The beauty about > > > Freeship is it does all those calculations like displacement and so on for > > > you. Change the draft and it does them again. A good tool. > > > | 22625|22000|2010-02-23 09:29:59|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|You are right. If you need "sure shot" - stick to Brent's plans. You cannot go wrong. He has proven design of BS36. Unless you can sail a boat - it would be just "a design". Brent has PRODUCT. You can actually sail many of his BS36 on NW/Canada and talk to the builders. You sail it, you like it - build it! If Brent's plans had all the ideas he shared in this group properly documented (information, drawings, illustrations, pictures)- it would be the best building plan available. Unfortunately, it is not the case. It just does not have enough details for MY liking to build this boat in 1 month. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Ill stick to a proven design and use K.I.S.S Thanks > all the best Wild > You could have got a second job bought Brents plane and started building by now instead you are doing O playing with paper > Or dont you want to sail and do some wild exploring > Cheers Hg | 22626|22000|2010-02-23 11:15:54|Gord Schnell|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Here is a workable solution to modeling a Brent Swain. Buy a roll of brass shim stock (rolls are 6" wide). lay the shim stock out on a tabletop, lay a sheet of carbon paper (face down) over it and place Brents' plans over that. Trace the hull and deck panels onto the shim stock and then cut out the pieces with a pair of scissors. Use a soldering iron and flux-based (not acid) solder to "stitch it together". You will get the conical curves and all the other characteristics of a steel model (in bright copper color). I gives a very accurate model of a BS boat. I did one for my BS40 and it gets a lot of interest and positive comments (from boat people) Gord On 22-Feb-10, at 5:34 PM, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Just a little warning here. What you did looks very nice, a little too > nice. The hull has a lot of compound curvature, which freeship > allowed you > to do. Brent's hull has very little compound curvature, because it is > mostly conical sections which only have curvature in one direction. > Yours > assembles in paper because paper is very flexible and has little > stiffness. > I would trace your pattern onto a sheet of thin steel or aluminum > and then > try pulling the edges together. You could drill holes along all the > edges > so you can do the pulling using tie wire, without the need to weld. > This > would let you prove it could be pulled together. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "wild_explorer" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 6:49 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 > month. > Dream or reality? > > > Here is how my "hull project" looks like in 3D: > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/3D_view_1.JPG > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/3D_view_2.JPG > > > > Looks better than paper model. I need to learn how to weld and > start doing > > it in metal.. ;) > > > > Just kidding - it is LONG way to go with boat design even to get > close to > > finished product ;) > > > > Would be somebody interested to participate in "3D Origamiboat > project"? > > Something different than existing Brent's plans? He did excellent > job to > > master his design. Do not count on me as a designer - I can just > do some > > "dirty work" to put it in 3D. > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22627|22000|2010-02-23 14:38:26|tropical_breeze52|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Hi Wild All I was try to explain wild was computers are only as good as the software thats put into them (all known variables) if you missed putting some into the software some thing bad can happen look at some of the Tris that have broken beams and bows off as an example. As you are doing making models bring out the variables that are missed but there might be varables that you dont know about unforseen The work involved and the money you would have to put into your own workable design and the possible failure rate from me I cant afford it. Its like that yellow pc I made the one before it I slamed a power supply in to it late at night the next day it was on a plane to the USA he plugged it in and it had a melt down why because I forgot the power supply was a little unusal and was made only for 240 volt here in Oz (A VARIBLE MISSED) it didnt have a label on it stating that and it was a quality PSU. But it caused a few problems trying to fix it when its that far away. But its things like mast engine placement and lots of other things that gives the boat its soul and sailability that with out boats out there on the water and trial and error you will never know how your boat would perform. You say Brent boats information is unclear but once I found this site I bought some dvds and MOMs power point and it is all there plus the plans. And there are boats sailing with this design.Its fun make and creating stuff I know I love it but the time cost and labour to get it right is far to much we are only on the peice of dirt for a very short time and I for one are going to make the most of it and have so far. Keep making them if it makes you happy while Im exploring the earth in a boat that will not use much of the earth unused energy once its made have fun --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > You are right. If you need "sure shot" - stick to Brent's plans. You cannot go wrong. He has proven design of BS36. Unless you can sail a boat - it would be just "a design". Brent has PRODUCT. You can actually sail many of his BS36 on NW/Canada and talk to the builders. You sail it, you like it - build it! > > If Brent's plans had all the ideas he shared in this group properly documented (information, drawings, illustrations, pictures)- it would be the best building plan available. Unfortunately, it is not the case. It just does not have enough details for MY liking to build this boat in 1 month. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Ill stick to a proven design and use K.I.S.S Thanks > > all the best Wild > > You could have got a second job bought Brents plane and started building by now instead you are doing O playing with paper > > Or dont you want to sail and do some wild exploring > > Cheers Hg > | 22628|22000|2010-02-23 14:39:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:27:06AM -0000, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > Also Wild explorer > I once saw a Hospital computer generated once it was built they found > many problems example no one could find the light switches because > they had been computer drawn in behind the curtains So... if the architect had used a pencil, it would have made the builders and the electricians smarter??? That's amazing. You should report that to all the architectural societies right away, so that they'll never make the mistake of using computers again. I seriously doubt that you "saw" a hospital "generated" by a computer. Feel free to prove me wrong, though: hospitals don't normally just disappear, so you can tell us all where it is. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22629|22000|2010-02-24 05:03:43|tropical_breeze52|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Hi Ben If you like to come over to Australia Ill take to there personally and show you exactly what I quoted cheers Hg02 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hi Wild > All I was try to explain wild was computers are only as good as the software thats put into them (all known variables) if you missed putting some into the software some thing bad can happen look at some of the Tris that have broken beams and bows off as an example. > As you are doing making models bring out the variables that are missed but there might be varables that you dont know about unforseen > The work involved and the money you would have to put into your own workable design and the possible failure rate from me I cant afford it. > Its like that yellow pc I made the one before it I slamed a power supply in to it late at night the next day it was on a plane to the USA he plugged it in and it had a melt down why because I forgot the power supply was a little unusal and was made only for 240 volt here in Oz (A VARIBLE MISSED) it didnt have a label on it stating that and it was a quality PSU. But it caused a few problems trying to fix it when its that far away. > But its things like mast engine placement and lots of other things that gives the boat its soul and sailability that with out boats out there on the water and trial and error you will never know how your boat would perform. > You say Brent boats information is unclear but once I found this site I bought some dvds and MOMs power point and it is all there plus the plans. > And there are boats sailing with this design.Its fun make and creating stuff I know I love it but the time cost and labour to get it right is far to much we are only on the peice of dirt for a very short time and I for one are going to make the most of it and have so far. > Keep making them if it makes you happy while Im exploring the earth > in a boat that will not use much of the earth unused energy once its made > have fun > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > You are right. If you need "sure shot" - stick to Brent's plans. You cannot go wrong. He has proven design of BS36. Unless you can sail a boat - it would be just "a design". Brent has PRODUCT. You can actually sail many of his BS36 on NW/Canada and talk to the builders. You sail it, you like it - build it! > > > > If Brent's plans had all the ideas he shared in this group properly documented (information, drawings, illustrations, pictures)- it would be the best building plan available. Unfortunately, it is not the case. It just does not have enough details for MY liking to build this boat in 1 month. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > Ill stick to a proven design and use K.I.S.S Thanks > > > all the best Wild > > > You could have got a second job bought Brents plane and started building by now instead you are doing O playing with paper > > > Or dont you want to sail and do some wild exploring > > > Cheers Hg > > > | 22630|22000|2010-02-24 05:12:40|HAYDN GROSVENOR|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|http://www.kyhealth.org.au/ContactUs/WhereAreWe/index.aspx Kyabram district Hospital built a large extension when they finished and put the beds in the rooms there wasn't enough room to bring in the trolley from the operating theatre and that's a fact. What they now do is bring the bed out of the room into the hall and slide the patient onto the trolley.   This did happen Ben  and I would say the software didnt have enough thought put into it Kind Regards Hg02 ________________________________ From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 24 February, 2010 6:39:09 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?   On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:27:06AM -0000, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > Also Wild explorer > I once saw a Hospital computer generated once it was built they found > many problems example no one could find the light switches because > they had been computer drawn in behind the curtains So... if the architect had used a pencil, it would have made the builders and the electricians smarter??? That's amazing. You should report that to all the architectural societies right away, so that they'll never make the mistake of using computers again. I seriously doubt that you "saw" a hospital "generated" by a computer. Feel free to prove me wrong, though: hospitals don't normally just disappear, so you can tell us all where it is. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22631|22565|2010-02-24 05:19:39|tropical_breeze52|Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today|Hi Aron Well I cut 1/2 inch plate today cut out one keel plate bottom It was a bit slow but got though it had the amps set on 35 and 50psi maybe a bit higher it did struggle it will be more suited to thiner stuff Cheers Hg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Some machines with 40 amps will cut everything up to 1/2" steel except any 1/2" SS or 1/2" aluminum. Most machines need 60+ lbs air pressure. I have a Hypertherm power max 600 and it works great with no troubles in 5 years. I used 4x4 to raise my sheets off the ground but 2x4 is plenty. As you get older give an old guy a break I am sure there are several old guys here that still have more finesse than a saber toothed tiger. Primer is a torch killer but plasma dosent even know its there. > Aaron > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > From: tropical_breeze52 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 11:07 AM > > >   > > > > Thanks James > I was wondering what air pressure and amps I would need for 3/16 5mm) hull plate I have 4 x 4 wood which I thought of using to lift the sheets off the groung before cutting would this be enough space > to stop any blow back > I have been thinking about some way of using a batton of some sort even a thin steel strap tacked the the plate from the layout and using as a guide when cutting or those magnetic squares holding the batton. And make a washer the same size as the cutter to line the baton up for cutting I have a while to think about that but as you get older your cutting gets a bit wobbly. maybe using a washer ( same size as the torch) off the batton so it gives you an easy quick way to get the batton set up for cutting. hopfully if I can sort some thing less chance of a stuff up > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > Hg > > I have the same kind of plasma cutter, just a little 40 amp, 220 volt Chinese inverter. > > I had a lincoln pro-cut 55 (about $3000.00) with a 50 foot long led for the torch, till some thieving bastard help them self to it (and about $4000 of other tools and equipment). > > I like the little $500 inverter better, way cheaper to run, the torch is nice and small and it cuts just as well through 1/4" material. > >  I find that you just need to cut slow through 1/4" stainless and turn up you air pressure a little (about 10psi) . > > James > > > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > > > > From: tropical_breeze52 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bought and tried out a plasma cutter today > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Received: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 5:55 AM > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > HI Graig > > Is called a boswell its not a expensive unit 15 amp single phrase > > seems to work ok all I want it for is this build then is gone > > as Mr J Plonk1 (another origami menber) has put a few photos in here hes ahead with pots of stainless parts made so I better get some stainless done and post some photos also Ha Ha > > Hg > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "hotelechovictorkil o" wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > What brand did you go for? I am shopping now. Is yours single phase or 3 phase, I dont have 3 phase power. > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Guys > > > > Well I bought a plasma cutter today 40 amp and used it for the first time Im not sure about what amps Im surposed to used yet but I could write my name through 3/8 plate and a scape on the under side and clean Im impressed with these. > > > > Wanted some ideas on cutting the hull sheets here in Aust we seem to only be able to get 9 (29.52 ft) or 6 (20 ft = 6.096 ) meter sheets > > > > So I could cut the sheets at work on the weekends using the fork lift and set it up off the ground ( 6 meter sheets only wth some surport underneath) > > > > I am wondering what you guys thought of cutting the sheets for the hull shape and then but welding near the center line to join the two halves. Brent has said he has build one side out of two sheets. But can I get good acruacy say if I cut the two bow sections and made them exact and do the same with the two stern sections then but weld bow and stern > > > > or should I but weld the two sheets and then draw the patterns on the full side. > > > > One other thing I would like to ask is Im 58 and want to use this boat as long as I can ( no couch @ an old peoples home for me) Should I be building a 36 or a 31 footer as I intend to live aboard all my life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22632|22000|2010-02-24 06:08:09|tropical_breeze52|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Bn Im not sure what happens over there but as an example some body designs a car park at a super market and let say its underneath the shopping complex in Ozz they like to put lumps of concrete in front on wall so the cars wheel hits them and they stop before the wall Let say Dad buys a nice Holden (GMC with a front spoiler mun gets the first drive and drives down to the super market into the parking space infront of the wall the spoiler scraps over the lump of concrete and stops before the wall she says dam but the worst is yet to come when she backs out ripping the spoiler half off. Now PCs soft ware may now have figured it out or it may have been the guy using the soft ware couldnt be bother finding out what car heights are. But previoulsy no and there are many spoilers damaged from this. PC software is getting better and better all the time as we put more and more varables into them and in a way its probally no differnt than Brents designs and through his use the design improves over years of sailing. I have always belived this is the way life is it takes time for things to be user friendly Ask any disabled person cheers Hg02 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > http://www.kyhealth.org.au/ContactUs/WhereAreWe/index.aspx > Kyabram district Hospital built a large extension when they finished and put the beds in the rooms there wasn't enough room to bring in the trolley from the operating theatre and that's a fact. What they now do is bring the bed out of the room into the hall and slide the patient onto the trolley.   This did happen Ben  and I would say the software didnt have enough thought put into it > Kind Regards Hg02 > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 24 February, 2010 6:39:09 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? > >   > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:27:06AM -0000, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > Also Wild explorer > > I once saw a Hospital computer generated once it was built they found > > many problems example no one could find the light switches because > > they had been computer drawn in behind the curtains > > So... if the architect had used a pencil, it would have made the > builders and the electricians smarter??? That's amazing. You should > report that to all the architectural societies right away, so that > they'll never make the mistake of using computers again. > > I seriously doubt that you "saw" a hospital "generated" by a computer. > Feel free to prove me wrong, though: hospitals don't normally just > disappear, so you can tell us all where it is. > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22633|22000|2010-02-24 11:16:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:02:32AM -0000, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > Hi Ben > If you like to come over to Australia Ill take to there personally > and show you exactly what I quoted Although I'm planning on sailing to the Land Down Under at some point in the next few years (I have to see for myself if you folks walk upside down :), it's not quite happening yet - but I'm sure that the local papers would have had a field day with something like this, and people all over the world would be interested in it as a study case. So, what's the name of this hospital? I'll be glad to look it up on line; I teach classes in how to search the Net, and if it's been documented anywhere, I'll find it. Or you could just get off this particular hook and admit that it's *people*, and not their tools, that make mistakes - no matter what tools they're using. A carpenter who blamed his bad work on his circular saw would be laughable; architects who use a computer (or a slide rule) badly are in exactly the same position. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22634|22000|2010-02-24 11:44:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 02:12:34AM -0800, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > http://www.kyhealth.org.au/ContactUs/WhereAreWe/index.aspx That's a map, yes. Is this supposed to prove anything? > Kyabram district Hospital built a large extension when they finished > and put the beds in the rooms there wasn't enough room to bring in the > trolley from the operating theatre and that's a fact. What they now do > is bring the bed out of the room into the hall and slide the patient > onto the trolley.   This did happen Ben  and I would say the software > didnt have enough thought put into it It wasn't the architect, it was the software? I guess, from here forward, we can all excuse not paying our bills by saying "I wanted to do it, but my pen wouldn't let me." That should work really well, right? Meanwhile, searching on 'kyabram' in various combinations with 'trolley', 'operating (room|theater|theatre)', 'light switch', 'mistake', 'bad design', and so does not bring up *anything* of this sort - although the local ladies' auxiliary is very enthusiastic about how wonderful this hospital is, with _big_ trolleys loaded with towels rolling through the corridors. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22635|22000|2010-02-24 13:02:15|Matt Malone|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Enough already with this hospital thing. Software has limits, the professionals who use it should know those limits, and often they do not, they like the rest of us, trust some sleazy salesman, or are just plain lazy and it causes no end of predictable, tedious problems -- just the sort of thing that one generally wants to build a sailboat to get away from. Tell me more about welders and welding please. I have a 200A AC stick (SMAW) type welder that I have used 6011 and 6013 to do all sorts of farm-type welding, usually around 75-120A. I have never tried to make a water-tight weld before, but over time I have gotten better and it appears some long sections of my welds might be water tight. I have been paying close attention to the "vertical-up technique" posts and others that give specifics of weld geometry, rod type, Amps, polarity etc. I also have a wire feed welder, 50-60A, which uses either flux-core wire, or MIG wire. I have been using it flux-core only, lacking a bottle. I have been using 70-series wire in it, for again, farm-type welding on sheet down to 1/16th. I have never been very happy with the results however. The arc seems to keep blowing out and the wire pushes out of the electrode rapidly and re-contacts the surface, repeatedly. Sometimes it is like 5 times in a row. I have also been reading the posts on inexpensive plasma cutters with interest. I have been self-taught in welding. I have searched the web when the "vertical up technique" was being mentioned. I was looking for a simple graphic showing hand movements. One effective way of communicating it graphically might be like cursive pseudo-writing using a pen instead of an electrode to make the proper motions really clear. If anyone can post a link to something graphical, I would appreciate it. Matt _________________________________________________________________ Check your Hotmail from your phone. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9708121 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22636|22000|2010-02-24 13:02:25|Aaron Williams|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Some thing get engineered to be broken. --- On Wed, 2/24/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: From: tropical_breeze52 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 2:03 AM   Bn Im not sure what happens over there but as an example some body designs a car park at a super market and let say its underneath the shopping complex in Ozz they like to put lumps of concrete in front on wall so the cars wheel hits them and they stop before the wall Let say Dad buys a nice Holden (GMC with a front spoiler mun gets the first drive and drives down to the super market into the parking space infront of the wall the spoiler scraps over the lump of concrete and stops before the wall she says dam but the worst is yet to come when she backs out ripping the spoiler half off. Now PCs soft ware may now have figured it out or it may have been the guy using the soft ware couldnt be bother finding out what car heights are. But previoulsy no and there are many spoilers damaged from this. PC software is getting better and better all the time as we put more and more varables into them and in a way its probally no differnt than Brents designs and through his use the design improves over years of sailing. I have always belived this is the way life is it takes time for things to be user friendly Ask any disabled person cheers Hg02 --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > http://www.kyhealth .org.au/ContactU s/WhereAreWe/ index.aspx > Kyabram district Hospital built a large extension when they finished and put the beds in the rooms there wasn't enough room to bring in the trolley from the operating theatre and that's a fact. What they now do is bring the bed out of the room into the hall and slide the patient onto the trolley.   This did happen Ben  and I would say the software didnt have enough thought put into it > Kind Regards Hg02 > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Wed, 24 February, 2010 6:39:09 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? > >   > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:27:06AM -0000, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > Also Wild explorer > > I once saw a Hospital computer generated once it was built they found > > many problems example no one could find the light switches because > > they had been computer drawn in behind the curtains > > So... if the architect had used a pencil, it would have made the > builders and the electricians smarter??? That's amazing. You should > report that to all the architectural societies right away, so that > they'll never make the mistake of using computers again. > > I seriously doubt that you "saw" a hospital "generated" by a computer. > Feel free to prove me wrong, though: hospitals don't normally just > disappear, so you can tell us all where it is. > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22637|22000|2010-02-24 13:18:43|theboilerflue|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|So I'm confused are these software programs designing their own buildings or are architects using software to draw a building plan - I just ask cause if computers are designing their own buildings there may come a point when these programs find humans to be simply useless interference and responsible for unforgivable flaws in the programming - and turn against us - something should be done! Whether the architect is drafting a hospital either on a computer or with a pencil and they draw the doors in at 4 feet instead of 4.5 - they screwed up. Also in my experiences with a couple commercial construction sites things are not followed exactly to plan, a computer may be designing it but robots aren't yet building it, and no decent carpenter would put an electrical box in some weird hard to get at place just because the plans called for it. Luckily for us hospitals and such are built by people who do actually work in real 3-D instead of these independent designing programs and have at least some sense (or should) of what works. Which was the original point here, Jim these 3-D and even the paper cutouts may look real sleek but there are a lot of factors here and perhaps not going overboard would be advisable, As I've said from the start way don't you just start building your Brent Swain 36 or 40 or what ever size you wanted If you had thrown enough money at it you'd be done by now. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 02:12:34AM -0800, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > http://www.kyhealth.org.au/ContactUs/WhereAreWe/index.aspx > > That's a map, yes. Is this supposed to prove anything? > > > Kyabram district Hospital built a large extension when they finished > > and put the beds in the rooms there wasn't enough room to bring in the > > trolley from the operating theatre and that's a fact. What they now do > > is bring the bed out of the room into the hall and slide the patient > > onto the trolley.   This did happen Ben  and I would say the software > > didnt have enough thought put into it > > It wasn't the architect, it was the software? I guess, from here forward, > we can all excuse not paying our bills by saying "I wanted to do it, but > my pen wouldn't let me." That should work really well, right? > > Meanwhile, searching on 'kyabram' in various combinations with > 'trolley', 'operating (room|theater|theatre)', 'light switch', > 'mistake', 'bad design', and so does not bring up *anything* of this > sort - although the local ladies' auxiliary is very enthusiastic about > how wonderful this hospital is, with _big_ trolleys loaded with towels > rolling through the corridors. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22638|22000|2010-02-24 13:56:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:55:24PM -0500, Matt Malone wrote: > > I have been self-taught in welding. Nothing wrong with that. As far as I'm concerned, if you're at least reasonably coordinated and can learn from what you see, you can learn to weld pretty well. A school is great if you want to learn quickly, or you want to learn special techniques. I really enjoyed the course that I took, but that was partly due to the absolutely amazing instructor that I had. > I have searched the web when the > "vertical up technique" was being mentioned. I was looking for a > simple graphic showing hand movements. One effective way of > communicating it graphically might be like cursive pseudo-writing > using a pen instead of an electrode to make the proper motions really > clear. The Lincoln Arc Welding Manual has a really good listing of the various strokes, with graphical "pseudo-writing" of the sort you're talking about. There are some good examples in this PPT, including vertical-up: http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/knowledge/training/SMAWStickWelding.ppt -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22639|22000|2010-02-24 14:18:09|tropical_breeze52|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might becoem a better user also from more use Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats all Im saying here. I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly incredible . we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember not to do it again. well hoefully Hg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > Enough already with this hospital thing. Software has limits, the professionals who use it should know those limits, and often they do not, they like the rest of us, trust some sleazy salesman, or are just plain lazy and it causes no end of predictable, tedious problems -- just the sort of thing that one generally wants to build a sailboat to get away from. > > > > Tell me more about welders and welding please. I have a 200A AC stick (SMAW) type welder that I have used 6011 and 6013 to do all sorts of farm-type welding, usually around 75-120A. I have never tried to make a water-tight weld before, but over time I have gotten better and it appears some long sections of my welds might be water tight. I have been paying close attention to the "vertical-up technique" posts and others that give specifics of weld geometry, rod type, Amps, polarity etc. > > > > I also have a wire feed welder, 50-60A, which uses either flux-core wire, or MIG wire. I have been using it flux-core only, lacking a bottle. I have been using 70-series wire in it, for again, farm-type welding on sheet down to 1/16th. I have never been very happy with the results however. The arc seems to keep blowing out and the wire pushes out of the electrode rapidly and re-contacts the surface, repeatedly. Sometimes it is like 5 times in a row. > > > > I have also been reading the posts on inexpensive plasma cutters with interest. > > > > I have been self-taught in welding. I have searched the web when the "vertical up technique" was being mentioned. I was looking for a simple graphic showing hand movements. One effective way of communicating it graphically might be like cursive pseudo-writing using a pen instead of an electrode to make the proper motions really clear. > > > > If anyone can post a link to something graphical, I would appreciate it. > > > > Matt > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check your Hotmail from your phone. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9708121 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22640|22000|2010-02-24 14:37:28|tropical_breeze52|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|No Aron Ive made stuff and its wasnt quite right so I had to modify it slightly because Id missed some thing and I learnt from it. and fixed it . Would that boat design soft ware tell you the exact spot to put the keel and if it did would or could it be better if it was forward slightly to give better wind ward preformance or a better rudder shape. You can design a race motor bike in a PC but it still needs a human touch to make it the best it can be for that design --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Some thing get engineered to be broken. > > > --- On Wed, 2/24/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > From: tropical_breeze52 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 2:03 AM > > >   > > > > Bn > Im not sure what happens over there but as an example some body designs a car park at a super market and let say its underneath the shopping complex in Ozz they like to put lumps of concrete in front on wall so the cars wheel hits them and they stop before the wall > Let say Dad buys a nice Holden (GMC with a front spoiler mun gets the first drive and drives down to the super market into the parking space infront of the wall the spoiler scraps over the lump of concrete and stops before the wall she says dam but the worst is yet to come when she backs out ripping the spoiler half off. Now PCs soft ware may now have figured it out or it may have been the guy using the soft ware couldnt be bother finding out what car heights are. > But previoulsy no and there are many spoilers damaged from this. PC software is getting better and better all the time as we put more and more varables into them and in a way its probally no differnt than Brents designs and through his use the design improves over years of sailing. I have always belived this is the way life is > it takes time for things to be user friendly > Ask any disabled person > cheers Hg02 > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > > > http://www.kyhealth .org.au/ContactU s/WhereAreWe/ index.aspx > > Kyabram district Hospital built a large extension when they finished and put the beds in the rooms there wasn't enough room to bring in the trolley from the operating theatre and that's a fact. What they now do is bring the bed out of the room into the hall and slide the patient onto the trolley.   This did happen Ben  and I would say the software didnt have enough thought put into it > > Kind Regards Hg02 > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > From: Ben Okopnik > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Wed, 24 February, 2010 6:39:09 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? > > > >   > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:27:06AM -0000, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > Also Wild explorer > > > I once saw a Hospital computer generated once it was built they found > > > many problems example no one could find the light switches because > > > they had been computer drawn in behind the curtains > > > > So... if the architect had used a pencil, it would have made the > > builders and the electricians smarter??? That's amazing. You should > > report that to all the architectural societies right away, so that > > they'll never make the mistake of using computers again. > > > > I seriously doubt that you "saw" a hospital "generated" by a computer. > > Feel free to prove me wrong, though: hospitals don't normally just > > disappear, so you can tell us all where it is. > > > > -- > > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22641|22641|2010-02-24 15:25:43|wild_explorer|Please, change subject line when you go off-topic|Folks, PLEASE, change subject line when you start to discuss something unrelated to original post. It would simplify searching of the posts later. For example, if you start talking about welding, put WELDING as first word in subject line (or ENGINE, etc). Everybody will appreciate it later when they need to find information in this group.| 22642|22641|2010-02-24 15:39:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: Please, change subject line when you go off-topic|On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 08:25:02PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Folks, PLEASE, change subject line when you start to discuss something > unrelated to original post. It would simplify searching of the posts > later. > > For example, if you start talking about welding, put WELDING as first > word in subject line (or ENGINE, etc). Everybody will appreciate it > later when they need to find information in this group. I don't think that would help anything, Jim. Neither Yahoo nor my search engine search only by title (although with mine, you can tell it to do that.) E.g., http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?subject=welding&search=search would only show you the 622 Origami posts that have 'welding' in the title - but that's far from all there is; searching in the body, e.g. http://okopnik.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?body=welding&search=search turns up 2624 posts. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22643|22000|2010-02-24 15:43:49|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 07:32:20PM -0000, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > You can design a race motor bike in a PC but it still needs a human > touch to make it the best it can be for that design Whose touch was it that produced both the bike design in the PC, the PC itself, and the software in the first place? -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22644|22000|2010-02-24 16:53:45|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I already explained why I am not building BS40 so far. I just played the game "What do I need to know to go from Brent's BS40 plan to boat's building plan"? May be Brent's plan is enough for professional boatbuilder, but I still have MANY questions. Just for the hull: exact placement of longitudinal stiffeners, transverse reinforcement, pilot house plate development, roof, etc, etc, etc. If you DIY, you can sit all day long to try to figure out how to do it (try it, read group, ask questions, e-mail to Brent, etc). If I hire somebody who just know how to weld, they will ask ME all this questions. I better to have the answers right away or it will cost me. At this time I just spend my time - not money. It took me more than a month to make my first 3D model, which did not look very good. Another month to get familiar and find limitations of software I use. Even my present "hull project" looks like barge compare to Brent's boat (his boat even looks FAST). But with my project, I have headroom all the way through the hull and more usable space. I can put pilot house I like, etc, etc, etc. And steel supplier ask me for 2D plate development files to do CNC cutting. So, I have options to put BS40 in 2D, or make 3D and convert it to plates. It looks like nobody interested just in CNC files for BS40. Brent was not interested in my offer to put his BS40 in 3D. By the way, It took me about a day to make the draft of BS40 in 3D now (but it will be only available to Brent if he is interested). So, I will save money in a "long run". Instead of buying steel, keep it somewhere and let it rust, or just starting to pull hull together and trying "to go-from-here" I will make 3D model, test it on model, figure out FULL building sequence and THEN start real project. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Which was the original point here, Jim these 3-D and even the paper cutouts may look real sleek but there are a lot of factors here and perhaps not going overboard would be advisable, As I've said from the start way don't you just start building your Brent Swain 36 or 40 or what ever size you wanted If you had thrown enough money at it you'd be done by now. > | 22645|22000|2010-02-24 17:35:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 06:07:47PM -0000, theboilerflue wrote: > > So I'm confused are these software programs designing their own > buildings or are architects using software to draw a building plan - I > just ask cause if computers are designing their own buildings there > may come a point when these programs find humans to be simply useless > interference and responsible for unforgivable flaws in the programming > - and turn against us - something should be done! Haidan, you're SO right! I checked my sent mail folder the other day, and found out that my laptop has been sneaking around on me with a no-good, low-down, faithless Pentium desktop - *and* dating an iPhone on the side. We went to a reconciliation meeting with my life counselor, and uncovered deep-seated abandonment issues on its part (it's true - I do use a Sun workstation once in a while - but I SWEAR, it was only business!)... the relationship may yet survive, but I've been deeply wounded. Will I ever be able to trust my heart to a piece of hardware again? -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22646|22000|2010-02-24 18:01:36|Matt Malone|Good Diagrams Depicting Welding Techniques & FreeShip|Thank you Ben, http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/knowledge/training/SMAWStickWelding.ppt That was a good link. Page 31 of that link called "Troubleshooting Welds" shows 7 different welds. Trust me, I have seen them all at one time or another. It never describes the cause or solutions if you are making one of those to make a good weld. Can anyone interpret, welds A through G, or suggest a link that shows a similar photo but does explain the problems with each? Secondly, it seems to me that they are universally showing a process of "dragging" the weld puddle -- stick angled pointing toward the weld already made. One of the few things I learned from a welder is, you can "push" the weld puddle forward, by using a rod angle that points toward the area not yet welded. Clearly Lincoln is not getting this wrong, but I cannot deny I got less of A through G when I changed to pushing the puddle. Lastly, I really liked the mention of the FreeShip ship designing software. It took me a while to puzzle out how it was thinking of 3D, and where to start, but once I did, it was really cool. Hint: start by making 4 points with y=0, and x and z the corners of a square (0,0) (1,0) (1,1) (0,1), then select them in clockwise order and click new panel. The water is on the other side of the panel. Drag the corners to where you want them. Click an edge and Extrude Edge to make more panels. 20 minutes after puzzling that out, I had a nice double-ender with high coach roof giving a 160 degree ultimate stability margin. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:55:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:55:24PM -0500, Matt Malone wrote: > > I have been self-taught in welding. Nothing wrong with that. As far as I'm concerned, if you're at least reasonably coordinated and can learn from what you see, you can learn to weld pretty well. A school is great if you want to learn quickly, or you want to learn special techniques. I really enjoyed the course that I took, but that was partly due to the absolutely amazing instructor that I had. > I have searched the web when the > "vertical up technique" was being mentioned. I was looking for a > simple graphic showing hand movements. One effective way of > communicating it graphically might be like cursive pseudo-writing > using a pen instead of an electrode to make the proper motions really > clear. The Lincoln Arc Welding Manual has a really good listing of the various strokes, with graphical "pseudo-writing" of the sort you're talking about. There are some good examples in this PPT, including vertical-up: http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/knowledge/training/SMAWStickWelding.ppt -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22647|22000|2010-02-25 01:27:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: Good Diagrams Depicting Welding Techniques & FreeShip|On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 06:01:31PM -0500, Matt Malone wrote: > > Thank you Ben, > > http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/knowledge/training/SMAWStickWelding.ppt My pleasure, Matt. I just happen to know that Lincoln has terrific literature that's been developed over the years, and that they make it easily available - pretty much all their books are sold at publication cost. > That was a good link. Page 31 of that link called "Troubleshooting > Welds" shows 7 different welds. Trust me, I have seen them all at one > time or another. It never describes the cause or solutions if you are > making one of those to make a good weld. Can anyone interpret, welds > A through G, or suggest a link that shows a similar photo but does > explain the problems with each? Well, again, just searching the Web will bring up a wealth of answers, e.g.: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/stickweld.asp -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22648|22648|2010-02-25 04:04:40|ric|tropo|When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! Just my opinion Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might becoem a better user also from more use Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats all Im saying here. I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly incredible . we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember not to do it again. well hoefully Hg| 22649|22000|2010-02-25 05:50:20|boatwayupnorth|Re: Good Diagrams Depicting Welding Techniques & FreeShip|Hi Matt, here is a link to another welding-forum: http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/arc-tutorial.htm If you scroll down that page you'll find where they announce "vertical up" as the next issue the want to cover in a tutorial, so we'll just have to wait. Anyway, I found this site very useful with lots of helpful people on their forum, both professionals, experienced amateurs and bloody beginners like myself. Just bought a 200 A MMA inverter. Haven't used it much yet, but it's a revelation after my old AC buzzbox which I never came to grips with. Have done some fillets and will try vertical up next. Would love to hear more from others what to do how and what to avoid when starting welding. Cheers Walter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > Thank you Ben, > http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/knowledge/training/SMAWStickWelding.ppt > > That was a good link. Page 31 of that link called "Troubleshooting Welds" shows 7 different welds. Trust me, I have seen them all at one time or another. It never describes the cause or solutions if you are making one of those to make a good weld. Can anyone interpret, welds A through G, or suggest a link that shows a similar photo but does explain the problems with each? > Secondly, it seems to me that they are universally showing a process of "dragging" the weld puddle -- stick angled pointing toward the weld already made. One of the few things I learned from a welder is, you can "push" the weld puddle forward, by using a rod angle that points toward the area not yet welded. Clearly Lincoln is not getting this wrong, but I cannot deny I got less of A through G when I changed to pushing the puddle. > > Lastly, I really liked the mention of the FreeShip ship designing software. It took me a while to puzzle out how it was thinking of 3D, and where to start, but once I did, it was really cool. Hint: start by making 4 points with y=0, and x and z the corners of a square (0,0) (1,0) (1,1) (0,1), then select them in clockwise order and click new panel. The water is on the other side of the panel. Drag the corners to where you want them. Click an edge and Extrude Edge to make more panels. 20 minutes after puzzling that out, I had a nice double-ender with high coach roof giving a 160 degree ultimate stability margin. > > Matt > > | 22650|22650|2010-02-25 14:53:18|wild_explorer|Nice pictures of single keel BS36|Link to original AD is below: http://www.boatloco.com/boats/showthread.php?p=31732| 22651|22000|2010-02-25 15:24:16|Carl Volkwein|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|In Brents book it has a design on paper. couldn't you just scale that up to what you want? carlvolkwein@... --- On Wed, 2/24/10, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 4:53 PM   I already explained why I am not building BS40 so far. I just played the game "What do I need to know to go from Brent's BS40 plan to boat's building plan"? May be Brent's plan is enough for professional boatbuilder, but I still have MANY questions. Just for the hull: exact placement of longitudinal stiffeners, transverse reinforcement, pilot house plate development, roof, etc, etc, etc. If you DIY, you can sit all day long to try to figure out how to do it (try it, read group, ask questions, e-mail to Brent, etc). If I hire somebody who just know how to weld, they will ask ME all this questions. I better to have the answers right away or it will cost me. At this time I just spend my time - not money. It took me more than a month to make my first 3D model, which did not look very good. Another month to get familiar and find limitations of software I use. Even my present "hull project" looks like barge compare to Brent's boat (his boat even looks FAST). But with my project, I have headroom all the way through the hull and more usable space. I can put pilot house I like, etc, etc, etc. And steel supplier ask me for 2D plate development files to do CNC cutting. So, I have options to put BS40 in 2D, or make 3D and convert it to plates. It looks like nobody interested just in CNC files for BS40. Brent was not interested in my offer to put his BS40 in 3D. By the way, It took me about a day to make the draft of BS40 in 3D now (but it will be only available to Brent if he is interested). So, I will save money in a "long run". Instead of buying steel, keep it somewhere and let it rust, or just starting to pull hull together and trying "to go-from-here" I will make 3D model, test it on model, figure out FULL building sequence and THEN start real project. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Which was the original point here, Jim these 3-D and even the paper cutouts may look real sleek but there are a lot of factors here and perhaps not going overboard would be advisable, As I've said from the start way don't you just start building your Brent Swain 36 or 40 or what ever size you wanted If you had thrown enough money at it you'd be done by now. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22652|22000|2010-02-25 15:32:37|Carl Volkwein|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|The driver must learn where that spoiler is. carlvolkwein@... --- On Wed, 2/24/10, Aaron Williams wrote: From: Aaron Williams Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 1:02 PM   Some thing get engineered to be broken. --- On Wed, 2/24/10, tropical_breeze52 wrote: From: tropical_breeze52 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 2:03 AM   Bn Im not sure what happens over there but as an example some body designs a car park at a super market and let say its underneath the shopping complex in Ozz they like to put lumps of concrete in front on wall so the cars wheel hits them and they stop before the wall Let say Dad buys a nice Holden (GMC with a front spoiler mun gets the first drive and drives down to the super market into the parking space infront of the wall the spoiler scraps over the lump of concrete and stops before the wall she says dam but the worst is yet to come when she backs out ripping the spoiler half off. Now PCs soft ware may now have figured it out or it may have been the guy using the soft ware couldnt be bother finding out what car heights are. But previoulsy no and there are many spoilers damaged from this. PC software is getting better and better all the time as we put more and more varables into them and in a way its probally no differnt than Brents designs and through his use the design improves over years of sailing. I have always belived this is the way life is it takes time for things to be user friendly Ask any disabled person cheers Hg02 --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, HAYDN GROSVENOR wrote: > > http://www.kyhealth .org.au/ContactU s/WhereAreWe/ index.aspx > Kyabram district Hospital built a large extension when they finished and put the beds in the rooms there wasn't enough room to bring in the trolley from the operating theatre and that's a fact. What they now do is bring the bed out of the room into the hall and slide the patient onto the trolley.   This did happen Ben  and I would say the software didnt have enough thought put into it > Kind Regards Hg02 > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Wed, 24 February, 2010 6:39:09 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? > >   > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:27:06AM -0000, tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > Also Wild explorer > > I once saw a Hospital computer generated once it was built they found > > many problems example no one could find the light switches because > > they had been computer drawn in behind the curtains > > So... if the architect had used a pencil, it would have made the > builders and the electricians smarter??? That's amazing. You should > report that to all the architectural societies right away, so that > they'll never make the mistake of using computers again. > > I seriously doubt that you "saw" a hospital "generated" by a computer. > Feel free to prove me wrong, though: hospitals don't normally just > disappear, so you can tell us all where it is. > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22653|22000|2010-02-25 18:37:33|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|If I upscale it, it will not fit on 40ft plate anymore. Steel supplier told me it would be too dangerous to handle/load/unload steel in 3/16x8ft more than 40ft (standard size) - they DO NOT DO IT. I do not see any point to use joint-lengh plates - it lose all advantage of Brent's idea to use full-length plate to make boat look very smooth. I can make some adjustments to original design (pilothouse, cabin), but it will affect original look. So, if "go ugly", why not to improve volume of living space in the hull? It will require wider (joint) total plate (Brent's design use second plate anyway). The boat will have "motorsailer" look, but it will be made from the same full-length plate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > In Brents book it has a design on paper. couldn't you just scale that up to what you want? > carlvolkwein@... | 22654|22654|2010-02-26 02:27:19|sitefix|SELF TAUGHT WELDING|Ok Mat, I see that someone has sent you a link to the Lincoln site. Also, check out MILLER Welding Discussions, http://www.millerwelds.com/resources hope that works. I sorta was self taught too. And now am in a night class for adults at a high school. Unfortunately there is no book or theory work, all hands on. No worries tho, as I ordered a "Student Pack" from the Miller site. 25 bucks US and a whole bunch of info, stick, mig and tig. A really hard to beat deal. There is info on many corrections to welding problems in the literature. My class started out burning 6011 1/8" DCEN/RP. I think I got that right. Basically running lots of stringer beads, gaining puddle control. After flat, Horz and vert with a little ovhd, we have moved on to 7018. A whole different ballgame. You asked about stick movement. OK, here is what I have learned, and yes, I am open to suggestions from others, but this seems to be easy for adult students with a little background to learn quickly. I must say that I had some bad habits. Mostly from independent reading, and "self taught" tryouts. I thought that every bead needed to be a weave bead. That should come later. Work on a straight stringer bead, maybe 5 lbs worth in the following manner. (a pound for flat, a pound for horizontal, and a pound for vertical, then enjoy going back and doing it again for improvements) There is a big difference in the stick manipulation of 6011 and 7018. Lets start with 6011: GOALS; 1) Stringer bead nice and straight. 2) with a 1/8 rod, look for a 3/8 bead. Start your puddle, learn to see the difference between the molten metal and slag. Use the 2 and out count. Count quickly, one two get out, on the "get out" keep your stick at the same angle and distance, about 1/8 off and move it ahead about 5/8 to 7/8 of an inch then bring it back and say one two get out and repeat. When you come back your target should be just slightly ahead of where you where. About 1/16 to an 1/8. You are letting your puddle cool just a little and you should see it get somewhat darker when you pull out. Remember, a quick one two and you should be moving out of your puddle. Not one onethousanad two onethasand etc. Lay your beads close together, touching, and practice putting your rod into the edge of the previous bead. This will help on horizontal. Standard coupons are about 1/4 steel 2"X6" more or less a bit for 1/8" rod. If you want, I can email you a few pics. As far as rod angle, it should be pointed towards your puddle for flat work, about 75 - 80 amps. This helps with penetration, 3/16 to 5/16 steel plate. 1/8 rod is too heavy and hot to learn on 1/8 steel. when you start working on your horizontal, put the rod straight into your holder, so that it points straight out, in line with it and now hold you rod straight to the steel, not tilted back or forwards. A quick one two get out, one two get out. I hated saying it, but it helped. Turn your heat down to where you can just get a start and hold it without too much trouble. Maybe 70-75 amps. Remember, keep your stick perpendicular for horizontal and vert. You can point it slightly up for vertical. 7018, wow, no one two get out movement. About 20 to 40 amps hotter. More like a drag rod slowly watching your puddle develop behind the rod about 1/4 to 3/8 back. Remember, you are looking for it to puddle about 3 times the diameter of the rod, 1/8 rod = 3/8 puddle. About 25 degrees pointed aft, into the puddle and about 25 degrees pointed into your previous bead for flat. Perpendicular for horizontal and vert. You really need to learn to differentiate the molten metal from the slag. Dont watch the slag buil up, just the molten. Another 5 pounds maybe. I was about 120 amps tonight. Welders Handbook by Richard Finch is a good one book intro that I can highly recommend. I think the Miller Training Pack is more conclusive with better correction methods, but Finch is a very easy and enjoyable read, and also has a lot of info, tables etc etc. Get both and you wont regret if you are the reading type. Ok, disclaimer time. I am just a student. There is an instructor that is on this site also. He motivated me to take a class and I am glad he did. I feel that if nothing else, having someone that has proven themselves competent and has many years burning rods show you the technique, and then watch you and make some suggestions would be invaluable, even if it was only for a few hours. Just learning to set the proper heat, hot, hotter and really hot, why and when the difference? You need undercut, but if you can see it after your pass, either you were too hot, or you moved too fast. If you have arrow heads in your pattern, sharp points trailing in your puddle, too fast. Nice round dime looking beads. These are in the books and on the web, I recommend Finch's "Welders handbook" and the Miller Student Package. Spend a week or two reading and burning, then find a full time welder, buy him dinner and some beer and get him to review with you. So, My cup is only half full and I would enjoy any other suggestions myself to help me improve my techniques. hope this helps more than hinders. So far the above has really helped me come a long way in a short time. I look to be spraying a mig bead soon. good luck, Parr| 22655|22000|2010-02-26 13:35:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 09:53:41PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > > So, I will save money in a "long run". Instead of buying steel, keep > it somewhere and let it rust, or just starting to pull hull together > and trying "to go-from-here" I will make 3D model, test it on model, > figure out FULL building sequence and THEN start real project. Beware of the fallacy built into that, Jim. If you're not familiar with the first law of combat, it applies with just as much force to boat building or even maintenance: "no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy". The fact that you pre-cut everything may even work against you: a lot of this stuff is much easier if you leave room for mistakes. Precision pre-cutting means that all your fitups have to be perfect - and being off a 1/4" might mean having to make up another piece or washing the weld off (learning to use a wash tip is yet another skill that takes a bit of learning) and redoing it from scratch. If you have no experience in doing anything like this, you're best off "wasting" a little money and welding up, say, an 8' scale model of a BS (or, really, any boat.) This is the way to save a whole lot of money, time, and effort in the long run. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22656|22000|2010-02-26 21:20:53|tropical_breeze52|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Hi Ben Let me explain a little In the 70s I had a mining accident not my doing so I have ended up with a aquired brain injury in saying that in the mid 80s I started up a Industrial bussiness untilizing a a PC and to wyse terminals witch I think novell its was a mess and the guy trying to fix it didnt know what he was doing and charging a fortune I threw it in the car and went to Melbourne and found some one that sorted it out ended up with 3 PCs net worked together and it worked ok but then problems with stock numbers when type then in for invoice it had to have the exact part number to bring it up to the screen for invoice to I rang the software company and they made a small search enigne in the parts system so I could fnd the excat item I was selling and that fixed that problem. I also used a fax card as there was no internet then this saved lots of paper for searching and quoting parts The Pc gave me the ability to do the end of the month roll it over and as I put extended memory in the printer I could print out all statments while it was doing the roll over and be home early fold them up and in the mail the next morning . If I offend any one I am sorry but I can only be me with in my ability . As Far as the Hospital is concerned ben it would have been pre Google so you might not find it . Cheers Hg02 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > Hi Ben > If you like to come over to Australia Ill take to there personally > and show you exactly what I quoted > cheers Hg02 > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Wild > > All I was try to explain wild was computers are only as good as the software thats put into them (all known variables) if you missed putting some into the software some thing bad can happen look at some of the Tris that have broken beams and bows off as an example. > > As you are doing making models bring out the variables that are missed but there might be varables that you dont know about unforseen > > The work involved and the money you would have to put into your own workable design and the possible failure rate from me I cant afford it. > > Its like that yellow pc I made the one before it I slamed a power supply in to it late at night the next day it was on a plane to the USA he plugged it in and it had a melt down why because I forgot the power supply was a little unusal and was made only for 240 volt here in Oz (A VARIBLE MISSED) it didnt have a label on it stating that and it was a quality PSU. But it caused a few problems trying to fix it when its that far away. > > But its things like mast engine placement and lots of other things that gives the boat its soul and sailability that with out boats out there on the water and trial and error you will never know how your boat would perform. > > You say Brent boats information is unclear but once I found this site I bought some dvds and MOMs power point and it is all there plus the plans. > > And there are boats sailing with this design.Its fun make and creating stuff I know I love it but the time cost and labour to get it right is far to much we are only on the peice of dirt for a very short time and I for one are going to make the most of it and have so far. > > Keep making them if it makes you happy while Im exploring the earth > > in a boat that will not use much of the earth unused energy once its made > > have fun > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > > > You are right. If you need "sure shot" - stick to Brent's plans. You cannot go wrong. He has proven design of BS36. Unless you can sail a boat - it would be just "a design". Brent has PRODUCT. You can actually sail many of his BS36 on NW/Canada and talk to the builders. You sail it, you like it - build it! > > > > > > If Brent's plans had all the ideas he shared in this group properly documented (information, drawings, illustrations, pictures)- it would be the best building plan available. Unfortunately, it is not the case. It just does not have enough details for MY liking to build this boat in 1 month. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > Ill stick to a proven design and use K.I.S.S Thanks > > > > all the best Wild > > > > You could have got a second job bought Brents plane and started building by now instead you are doing O playing with paper > > > > Or dont you want to sail and do some wild exploring > > > > Cheers Hg > > > > > > | 22657|22000|2010-02-27 02:03:52|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|It will be next step after bigger paper model. Just to refresh "modeling" subject, I reread my question about "Modeling of BS36" (original post # 21460). Thanks to your search engine - I was able to find it (Yahoo search did not return me anything - need to use post #). I have company close-by which has laser-cutting equipment and I plan to use 0.5mm steel for the model. I need to come up with CNC files first. I am back to "drawing board" and "double-ender shape" to get idea what I need to do to make better pattern. Mine still needs some "hand" adjustment and I want to use computer generated one without any changes (with acceptable error margin about 3-5mm). I might need to put resulting model in two different 3D programs and if I will be able to get the same results for the hull from both, I will say it is ready for CNC files. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > The fact that you pre-cut everything may even work against > you: a lot of this stuff is much easier if you leave room for mistakes. > Precision pre-cutting means that all your fitups have to be perfect - > and being off a 1/4" might mean having to make up another piece or > washing the weld off (learning to use a wash tip is yet another skill > that takes a bit of learning) and redoing it from scratch. > > If you have no experience in doing anything like this, you're best off > "wasting" a little money and welding up, say, an 8' scale model of a BS > (or, really, any boat.) This is the way to save a whole lot of money, > time, and effort in the long run. | 22658|22000|2010-02-27 09:13:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 06:58:24AM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > It will be next step after bigger paper model. Just to refresh > "modeling" subject, I reread my question about "Modeling of BS36" > (original post # 21460). Thanks to your search engine - I was able to > find it (Yahoo search did not return me anything - need to use post > #). [smile] Glad to be of help. > I have company close-by which has laser-cutting equipment and I plan > to use 0.5mm steel for the model. Wow. How were you planning to weld that? -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22659|22654|2010-02-27 14:29:43|kjackson888|Re: SELF TAUGHT WELDING|Hello, Mat and Parr, I'm a beginning welder, which seems to mean I'm an advanced grinder :), and I've really enjoyed following your ideas and suggestions. I found the complete 2009 version of the Welder's Handbook by Finch on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=GcPRgMcex8EC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Welders+Handbook&ei=126JS7yzIZX6lQT8mImYDQ&cd=2#v=onepage&q=Welders%20Handbook&f=false Thanks for sharing your info. Happy Welding, Kay Jackson, future welder of the SV Seeker, a junk rigged origami www.ArgonautJr.com www.SubmarineBoat.com Using home built technology to explore the world. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: > > Ok Mat, > > I see that someone has sent you a link to the Lincoln site. > Also, check out MILLER Welding Discussions, http://www.millerwelds.com/resources hope that works. > > I sorta was self taught too. And now am in a night class for adults at a high school. Unfortunately there is no book or theory work, all hands on. No worries tho, as I ordered a "Student Pack" from the Miller site. 25 bucks US and a whole bunch of info, stick, mig and tig. A really hard to beat deal. There is info on many corrections to welding problems in the literature. > > My class started out burning 6011 1/8" DCEN/RP. I think I got that right. Basically running lots of stringer beads, gaining puddle control. After flat, Horz and vert with a little ovhd, we have moved on to 7018. A whole different ballgame. > > You asked about stick movement. OK, here is what I have learned, and yes, I am open to suggestions from others, but this seems to be easy for adult students with a little background to learn quickly. I must say that I had some bad habits. Mostly from independent reading, and "self taught" tryouts. I thought that every bead needed to be a weave bead. That should come later. Work on a straight stringer bead, maybe 5 lbs worth in the following manner. (a pound for flat, a pound for horizontal, and a pound for vertical, then enjoy going back and doing it again for improvements) > > There is a big difference in the stick manipulation of 6011 and 7018. > Lets start with 6011: GOALS; > 1) Stringer bead nice and straight. > 2) with a 1/8 rod, look for a 3/8 bead. > Start your puddle, learn to see the difference between the molten metal and slag. Use the 2 and out count. Count quickly, one two get out, on the "get out" keep your stick at the same angle and distance, about 1/8 off and move it ahead about 5/8 to 7/8 of an inch then bring it back and say one two get out and repeat. When you come back your target should be just slightly ahead of where you where. About 1/16 to an 1/8. You are letting your puddle cool just a little and you should see it get somewhat darker when you pull out. Remember, a quick one two and you should be moving out of your puddle. Not one onethousanad two onethasand etc. Lay your beads close together, touching, and practice putting your rod into the edge of the previous bead. This will help on horizontal. Standard coupons are about 1/4 steel 2"X6" more or less a bit for 1/8" rod. If you want, I can email you a few pics. > > As far as rod angle, it should be pointed towards your puddle for flat work, about 75 - 80 amps. This helps with penetration, 3/16 to 5/16 steel plate. 1/8 rod is too heavy and hot to learn on 1/8 steel. > when you start working on your horizontal, put the rod straight into your holder, so that it points straight out, in line with it and now hold you rod straight to the steel, not tilted back or forwards. A quick one two get out, one two get out. I hated saying it, but it helped. Turn your heat down to where you can just get a start and hold it without too much trouble. Maybe 70-75 amps. Remember, keep your stick perpendicular for horizontal and vert. You can point it slightly up for vertical. > > 7018, wow, no one two get out movement. About 20 to 40 amps hotter. More like a drag rod slowly watching your puddle develop behind the rod about 1/4 to 3/8 back. Remember, you are looking for it to puddle about 3 times the diameter of the rod, 1/8 rod = 3/8 puddle. About 25 degrees pointed aft, into the puddle and about 25 degrees pointed into your previous bead for flat. Perpendicular for horizontal and vert. You really need to learn to differentiate the molten metal from the slag. Dont watch the slag buil up, just the molten. Another 5 pounds maybe. I was about 120 amps tonight. > > Welders Handbook by Richard Finch is a good one book intro that I can highly recommend. I think the Miller Training Pack is more conclusive with better correction methods, but Finch is a very easy and enjoyable read, and also has a lot of info, tables etc etc. Get both and you wont regret if you are the reading type. > > Ok, disclaimer time. I am just a student. There is an instructor that is on this site also. He motivated me to take a class and I am glad he did. I feel that if nothing else, having someone that has proven themselves competent and has many years burning rods show you the technique, and then watch you and make some suggestions would be invaluable, even if it was only for a few hours. Just learning to set the proper heat, hot, hotter and really hot, why and when the difference? You need undercut, but if you can see it after your pass, either you were too hot, or you moved too fast. If you have arrow heads in your pattern, sharp points trailing in your puddle, too fast. Nice round dime looking beads. These are in the books and on the web, I recommend Finch's "Welders handbook" and the Miller Student Package. Spend a week or two reading and burning, then find a full time welder, buy him dinner and some beer and get him to review with you. > > So, My cup is only half full and I would enjoy any other suggestions myself to help me improve my techniques. hope this helps more than hinders. So far the above has really helped me come a long way in a short time. > > I look to be spraying a mig bead soon. > > good luck, > > Parr > | 22660|22618|2010-02-27 14:51:15|brentswain38|Re: Fwd: Proposed oyster farm. Gorge Harbor, Cortes Island, BC|Have all your freinds , brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, etc etc email and phone them many times. This current government wanted to overturn a ban on horses in Strathcona park ,due to the dammage they cause. Both their entire advisory committe and the entire resident population of the nearby area objected , but because one freind of the premier wanted the law change , he changed the law , against the objections of everyone else, for the benefit of one of his friends. We may see the same result in Gorge Harbour, but we have to give it our best effort. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Apparently it is a Provincial decision. Give them "both barrels" > everyone. > Gord > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "Albrecht, Kenneth AL:EX" > > Date: February 22, 2010 1:36:25 PM PST (CA) > > To: Gord Schnell > > Subject: RE: Proposed oyster farm. Gorge Harbor, Cortes Island, BC > > > > Dear Gord Schnell, > > Thank you for your email regarding the application by the Klahoose > > First > > Nation for a shellfish tenure in Gorge Harbour. Although this > > application is location in marine water (Federal jurisdiction), the > > proposed structures will be attached to the sea floor (Provincial > > jurisdiction) which will require Provincial approval in the form of a > > Crown Land tenure. > > > > I have placed a copy of your response on file and your concerns will > > be > > taken into consideration when I complete my review of the application. > > > > Ken Albrecht > > Technical Lands Officer > > Ministry of Agriculture and Lands > > Nanaimo > > 250-751-3106 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gord Schnell [mailto:gschnell@...] > > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 7:27 PM > > To: Shannon.vollema@... > > Cc: Albrecht, Kenneth AL:EX > > Subject: Proposed oyster farm. Gorge Harbor, Cortes Island, BC > > > > I believe this a Federal issue, since the tide does pass in and out of > > Gorge Harbor. A proposed oyster farm in this beautiful and very > > popular harbor is abhorent. > > As a sailor and a member of the Bluewater Cruising Association, I feel > > we must all work to block this development and others like it. > > Block this farm now and make it clear, other potential developments, > > that we will not give up the rights and enjoyment of thousands for an > > oyster farm. > > Stop them now! > > > > Gordon Schnell > > 4693 Boundary Road > > Richmond, BC > > 604-728-4704 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22661|22000|2010-02-27 14:59:07|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|The exact placement of longitudinal stifeners is not important as it is overall stiffness that you are trying for.Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. The only transverse stiffeners are on the twin keels and the skeg, and under the mast, as shown in the plans and in my book. Don't imagine what is not there or not needed. The book and plans show all that is needed. No one has had much trouble building from what the plans and book show, even first time beginners. The pilot house dimensions, like any other dimensions, are drawn to scale, and can be scaled off the drawings. The book tells you how to determine the roof dimensions. If all else fails, read the directions. I'm definitely interestdd in CNC files for the 40, or any of my other designs. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I already explained why I am not building BS40 so far. I just played the game "What do I need to know to go from Brent's BS40 plan to boat's building plan"? May be Brent's plan is enough for professional boatbuilder, but I still have MANY questions. Just for the hull: exact placement of longitudinal stiffeners, transverse reinforcement, pilot house plate development, roof, etc, etc, etc. If you DIY, you can sit all day long to try to figure out how to do it (try it, read group, ask questions, e-mail to Brent, etc). If I hire somebody who just know how to weld, they will ask ME all this questions. I better to have the answers right away or it will cost me. > > At this time I just spend my time - not money. It took me more than a month to make my first 3D model, which did not look very good. Another month to get familiar and find limitations of software I use. Even my present "hull project" looks like barge compare to Brent's boat (his boat even looks FAST). But with my project, I have headroom all the way through the hull and more usable space. I can put pilot house I like, etc, etc, etc. > > And steel supplier ask me for 2D plate development files to do CNC cutting. So, I have options to put BS40 in 2D, or make 3D and convert it to plates. It looks like nobody interested just in CNC files for BS40. Brent was not interested in my offer to put his BS40 in 3D. By the way, It took me about a day to make the draft of BS40 in 3D now (but it will be only available to Brent if he is interested). > > So, I will save money in a "long run". Instead of buying steel, keep it somewhere and let it rust, or just starting to pull hull together and trying "to go-from-here" I will make 3D model, test it on model, figure out FULL building sequence and THEN start real project. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Which was the original point here, Jim these 3-D and even the paper cutouts may look real sleek but there are a lot of factors here and perhaps not going overboard would be advisable, As I've said from the start way don't you just start building your Brent Swain 36 or 40 or what ever size you wanted If you had thrown enough money at it you'd be done by now. > > > | 22662|22000|2010-02-27 15:20:46|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|When working in steel shops the biggest palte I ever handled was an 8 ft by 60 ft piece of half inch plate. Handling it was no problem with two 25 ton cranes. Unloading it involves simply tieing one end to a tree and driving the truck out from under it, while standing well back. No danger, nor problem. I've built many boats out of 20 ft plates , no problems, as long as you are carefull with the welding. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > If I upscale it, it will not fit on 40ft plate anymore. Steel supplier told me it would be too dangerous to handle/load/unload steel in 3/16x8ft more than 40ft (standard size) - they DO NOT DO IT. I do not see any point to use joint-lengh plates - it lose all advantage of Brent's idea to use full-length plate to make boat look very smooth. > > I can make some adjustments to original design (pilothouse, cabin), but it will affect original look. So, if "go ugly", why not to improve volume of living space in the hull? It will require wider (joint) total plate (Brent's design use second plate anyway). The boat will have "motorsailer" look, but it will be made from the same full-length plate. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > > > In Brents book it has a design on paper. couldn't you just scale that up to what you want? > > carlvolkwein@ > | 22663|22000|2010-02-27 15:20:52|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Thats why I like to make the plates on the transeverse bottom seams a little long ,let them overlap initially, then cut the excess away, after pulling the hull sides together . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 09:53:41PM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > > > > So, I will save money in a "long run". Instead of buying steel, keep > > it somewhere and let it rust, or just starting to pull hull together > > and trying "to go-from-here" I will make 3D model, test it on model, > > figure out FULL building sequence and THEN start real project. > > Beware of the fallacy built into that, Jim. If you're not familiar with > the first law of combat, it applies with just as much force to boat > building or even maintenance: "no battle plan ever survives contact with > the enemy". The fact that you pre-cut everything may even work against > you: a lot of this stuff is much easier if you leave room for mistakes. > Precision pre-cutting means that all your fitups have to be perfect - > and being off a 1/4" might mean having to make up another piece or > washing the weld off (learning to use a wash tip is yet another skill > that takes a bit of learning) and redoing it from scratch. > > If you have no experience in doing anything like this, you're best off > "wasting" a little money and welding up, say, an 8' scale model of a BS > (or, really, any boat.) This is the way to save a whole lot of money, > time, and effort in the long run. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22664|22654|2010-02-27 16:52:57|David Frantz|Re: SELF TAUGHT WELDING|David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 27, 2010, at 2:25 PM, kjackson888 wrote: > Hello, Mat and Parr, > > I'm a beginning welder, which seems to mean I'm an advanced > grinder :), and I've really enjoyed following your ideas and > suggestions. That is a good one. One of the great tricks with respect to welding is getting your feed rate right and keeping a steady hand. Once those are mastered your weld quality should go up. Well it is part of getting there. Personally I'm not the owner of a steady arm. To compensate I often make use of a rest or two hands for odd locations. > > I found the complete 2009 version of the Welder's Handbook by Finch > on Google Books: > http://books.google.com/books?id=GcPRgMcex8EC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Welders+Handbook&ei=126JS7yzIZX6lQT8mImYDQ&cd=2#v=onepage&q=Welders%20Handbook&f=false > > Thanks for sharing your info. > > Happy Welding, > Books are good but having an experience welder look at what you are doing can be very valuable. It is all about real time feedback. This is where a local class or experienced welder can do wonders as he can see exactly what is going on in your weld puddle. > Kay Jackson, future welder of the SV Seeker, a junk rigged origami > www.ArgonautJr.com > www.SubmarineBoat.com > Using home built technology to explore the world. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sitefix" wrote: >> >> Ok Mat, >> >> I see that someone has sent you a link to the Lincoln site. >> Also, check out MILLER Welding Discussions, http://www.millerwelds.com/resources >> hope that works. >> >> I sorta was self taught too. And now am in a night class for >> adults at a high school. Unfortunately there is no book or theory >> work, all hands on. No worries tho, as I ordered a "Student Pack" >> from the Miller site. 25 bucks US and a whole bunch of info, >> stick, mig and tig. A really hard to beat deal. There is info on >> many corrections to welding problems in the literature. >> >> My class started out burning 6011 1/8" DCEN/RP. I think I got that >> right. Basically running lots of stringer beads, gaining puddle >> control. After flat, Horz and vert with a little ovhd, we have >> moved on to 7018. A whole different ballgame. >> >> You asked about stick movement. OK, here is what I have learned, >> and yes, I am open to suggestions from others, but this seems to be >> easy for adult students with a little background to learn quickly. >> I must say that I had some bad habits. Mostly from independent >> reading, and "self taught" tryouts. I thought that every bead >> needed to be a weave bead. That should come later. Work on a >> straight stringer bead, maybe 5 lbs worth in the following manner. >> (a pound for flat, a pound for horizontal, and a pound for >> vertical, then enjoy going back and doing it again for improvements) >> >> There is a big difference in the stick manipulation of 6011 and 7018. >> Lets start with 6011: GOALS; >> 1) Stringer bead nice and straight. >> 2) with a 1/8 rod, look for a 3/8 bead. >> Start your puddle, learn to see the difference between the molten >> metal and slag. Use the 2 and out count. Count quickly, one two >> get out, on the "get out" keep your stick at the same angle and >> distance, about 1/8 off and move it ahead about 5/8 to 7/8 of an >> inch then bring it back and say one two get out and repeat. When >> you come back your target should be just slightly ahead of where >> you where. About 1/16 to an 1/8. You are letting your puddle cool >> just a little and you should see it get somewhat darker when you >> pull out. Remember, a quick one two and you should be moving out >> of your puddle. Not one onethousanad two onethasand etc. Lay your >> beads close together, touching, and practice putting your rod into >> the edge of the previous bead. This will help on horizontal. >> Standard coupons are about 1/4 steel 2"X6" more or less a bit for >> 1/8" rod. If you want, I can email you a few pics. >> >> As far as rod angle, it should be pointed towards your puddle for >> flat work, about 75 - 80 amps. This helps with penetration, 3/16 >> to 5/16 steel plate. 1/8 rod is too heavy and hot to learn on 1/8 >> steel. >> when you start working on your horizontal, put the rod straight >> into your holder, so that it points straight out, in line with it >> and now hold you rod straight to the steel, not tilted back or >> forwards. A quick one two get out, one two get out. I hated >> saying it, but it helped. Turn your heat down to where you can >> just get a start and hold it without too much trouble. Maybe 70-75 >> amps. Remember, keep your stick perpendicular for horizontal and >> vert. You can point it slightly up for vertical. >> >> 7018, wow, no one two get out movement. About 20 to 40 amps hotter. >> More like a drag rod slowly watching your puddle develop behind the >> rod about 1/4 to 3/8 back. Remember, you are looking for it to >> puddle about 3 times the diameter of the rod, 1/8 rod = 3/8 >> puddle. About 25 degrees pointed aft, into the puddle and about 25 >> degrees pointed into your previous bead for flat. Perpendicular for >> horizontal and vert. You really need to learn to differentiate >> the molten metal from the slag. Dont watch the slag buil up, just >> the molten. Another 5 pounds maybe. I was about 120 amps tonight. >> >> Welders Handbook by Richard Finch is a good one book intro that I >> can highly recommend. I think the Miller Training Pack is more >> conclusive with better correction methods, but Finch is a very easy >> and enjoyable read, and also has a lot of info, tables etc etc. >> Get both and you wont regret if you are the reading type. >> >> Ok, disclaimer time. I am just a student. There is an instructor >> that is on this site also. He motivated me to take a class and I >> am glad he did. I feel that if nothing else, having someone that >> has proven themselves competent and has many years burning rods >> show you the technique, and then watch you and make some >> suggestions would be invaluable, even if it was only for a few >> hours. Just learning to set the proper heat, hot, hotter and >> really hot, why and when the difference? You need undercut, but if >> you can see it after your pass, either you were too hot, or you >> moved too fast. If you have arrow heads in your pattern, sharp >> points trailing in your puddle, too fast. Nice round dime looking >> beads. These are in the books and on the web, I recommend Finch's >> "Welders handbook" and the Miller Student Package. Spend a week or >> two reading and burning, then find a full time welder, buy him >> dinner and some beer and get him to review with you. >> >> So, My cup is only half full and I would enjoy any other >> suggestions myself to help me improve my techniques. hope this >> helps more than hinders. So far the above has really helped me come >> a long way in a short time. >> >> I look to be spraying a mig bead soon. >> >> good luck, >> >> Parr >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22665|22665|2010-02-27 19:24:37|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|stove chemney|HI Brent, On the stove I made according to your plan, I installed a 3in. chemney. Is it big enough? I was thinking this might be the reason why I am experienting a lot of creosote condensation inside the chemney. Martin.| 22666|22666|2010-02-27 19:58:42|sitefix|HEATING STOVE|Ok, I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". They talk about this great burner from Seattle. Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel heaters? Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive fire hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / heaters, jet burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators options are, i would sure appreciate the info. If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. Parr PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, look at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and vino. sorry.| 22667|22666|2010-02-27 21:52:16|Carl Anderson|Re: HEATING STOVE|Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. That is what we put in our boat. Works great. Carl sv-mom.com sitefix wrote: > > > Ok, > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel heaters? > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive fire > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / heaters, jet > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > Parr > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, look > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and vino. sorry. > > | 22668|22666|2010-02-27 21:54:39|martin demers|Re: HEATING STOVE|Some say that diesel heaters smell, is it thrue? Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: cwa@... > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:52:09 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > That is what we put in our boat. > Works great. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > Ok, > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel heaters? > > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive fire > > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / heaters, jet > > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > > > Parr > > > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, look > > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and vino. sorry. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22669|22000|2010-02-27 22:57:15|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I might go for "hybrid" solution. One was suggested by Gord, another by Gary. Gord suggested to use brass shim stock. Good solution, but I will probably go for steel stock. Gary suggested to drill holes and "stitch it". Depending on the laser's dot diameter, it might be possible to burn holes instead of drilling. Then "stitch" plates and weld/solder it using welding rods for propane torch. Another possible solution to go for 1:5 scale and use 1mm steel. It should be weldable. Problem - model will be too big - 8ft ;)) I prefer to stick with 1:10 model (4ft). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > I have company close-by which has laser-cutting equipment and I plan > > to use 0.5mm steel for the model. > > Wow. How were you planning to weld that? | 22670|22666|2010-02-27 22:59:33|Aaron Williams|Re: HEATING STOVE|I decided to go with a Espar Hydronic 10 diesel boiler it will heat the boat, preheat the engine while I am still in Alaska and also hot water for dish washing or a shower. Not to cheap to start with but It does have some good effecient numbers 5000btu  @ .05 gallons an hour on low and 25000btu @ .4 gallons hour on high.  There is a listing on E-bay look eapar hydronic 10 the guy has posted a good guide for how they have been used. Aaron  --- On Sat, 2/27/10, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 27, 2010, 5:54 PM   Some say that diesel heaters smell, is it thrue? Martin. > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: cwa@virtual. moab.ut.us > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:52:09 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > That is what we put in our boat. > Works great. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > Ok, > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel heaters? > > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive fire > > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / heaters, jet > > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > > > Parr > > > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, look > > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and vino. sorry. > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22671|22666|2010-02-27 23:01:59|Aaron Williams|Re: HEATING STOVE|Carl or anyone else using diesel do you have any idea on how much fuel you burn to keep you boat heated while working while dry docked this winter? Aaron --- On Sat, 2/27/10, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 27, 2010, 5:52 PM Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. That is what we put in our boat. Works great. Carl sv-mom.com sitefix wrote: >  > > Ok, > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel heaters? > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive fire > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / heaters, jet > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > Parr > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, look > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and vino. sorry. > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22672|22000|2010-02-27 23:07:47|Aaron Williams|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Just for the fun of it you must post picture of the attempts to weld 1 mm I know it can be done and I know there are very few people that can accomplish it with a degree of quality. Soldering it will be the best bet. Aaron --- On Sat, 2/27/10, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 27, 2010, 6:57 PM   I might go for "hybrid" solution. One was suggested by Gord, another by Gary. Gord suggested to use brass shim stock. Good solution, but I will probably go for steel stock. Gary suggested to drill holes and "stitch it". Depending on the laser's dot diameter, it might be possible to burn holes instead of drilling. Then "stitch" plates and weld/solder it using welding rods for propane torch. Another possible solution to go for 1:5 scale and use 1mm steel. It should be weldable. Problem - model will be too big - 8ft ;)) I prefer to stick with 1:10 model (4ft). --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > I have company close-by which has laser-cutting equipment and I plan > > to use 0.5mm steel for the model. > > Wow. How were you planning to weld that? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22673|22000|2010-02-27 23:40:02|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Brent, I was talking only about ME & MYSELF. May be I just need more information then most people. It is personal things for everybody how much information they need to start the project. It would be very useful to have your design in 3D with CNC files. I will try my best to put your BS40 in 3D the way YOU see it (check your e-mail for further discussion). I do not have enough sailing or boat building experience, but I have common sense and engineering experience (which could be used for 3D modeling). I would be honored to contribute to your design. This way I can repay for all great information and your ideas I got from this website. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > The book and plans show all that is needed. No one has had much trouble building from what the plans and book show, even first time beginners. > The pilot house dimensions, like any other dimensions, are drawn to scale, and can be scaled off the drawings. The book tells you how to determine the roof dimensions. If all else fails, read the directions. > I'm definitely interestdd in CNC files for the 40, or any of my other designs. . | 22674|22000|2010-02-28 16:35:42|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Last night I wanted to braze a 3/8" pipe nipple into the end of a piece of thin wall tubing. I have a propane turbotorch, so I figured I'd give it a try. It was close, oh so close, but the temperature was just short of actually melting the brazing rod into a nice puddle. I called a neighbor hoping he had an acetylene plumbers torch, but he didn't. What he did have was a cylinder of MAPP gas. It did the trick perfectly. It was just a little hotter, and the rod flowed very nicely with no tendency to overheat, like you get with oxy-acetylene. It made a beautiful brazing job. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:07 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? Just for the fun of it you must post picture of the attempts to weld 1 mm I know it can be done and I know there are very few people that can accomplish it with a degree of quality. Soldering it will be the best bet. Aaron --- On Sat, 2/27/10, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 27, 2010, 6:57 PM I might go for "hybrid" solution. One was suggested by Gord, another by Gary. Gord suggested to use brass shim stock. Good solution, but I will probably go for steel stock. Gary suggested to drill holes and "stitch it". Depending on the laser's dot diameter, it might be possible to burn holes instead of drilling. Then "stitch" plates and weld/solder it using welding rods for propane torch. Another possible solution to go for 1:5 scale and use 1mm steel. It should be weldable. Problem - model will be too big - 8ft ;)) I prefer to stick with 1:10 model (4ft). --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > I have company close-by which has laser-cutting equipment and I plan > > to use 0.5mm steel for the model. > > Wow. How were you planning to weld that? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22675|22665|2010-02-28 18:35:08|brentswain38|Re: stove chemney|I prefer a 4 inch chimney, altho all stoves put out a certain amount of creosote, and leaky stove pipes will always leak creosote and stink like hell, in certain conditions. You have to seal them from creosote leakes, regardless. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > HI Brent, > > On the stove I made according to your plan, I installed a 3in. chemney. Is it big enough? > I was thinking this might be the reason why I am experienting a lot of creosote condensation inside the chemney. > > Martin. > | 22676|22666|2010-02-28 18:42:08|brentswain38|Re: HEATING STOVE|I have an oil heater which burns with a clean blue flame , yet when I use it, I cough like hell. Doesn't happen with the wood stove. My Great Great Grandfather used wood heat all his life, played soccer on his 100th birthday and lived to 104. His son I met, when he was 100, and lived to 103 . He also used wood heat all his life. A lady who put a woodstove in her well insulated hull last year said she spent far more on heating oil than on engine fuel and oil in a year. Wood here is free , oil very expensive. Adds up over a winter. Reduces cruising time, which is what boats are for. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Some say that diesel heaters smell, is it thrue? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: cwa@... > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:52:09 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > > That is what we put in our boat. > > Works great. > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ok, > > > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > > > > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > > > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel heaters? > > > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive fire > > > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > > > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / heaters, jet > > > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > > > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > > > > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > > > > > Parr > > > > > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > > > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > > > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, look > > > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and vino. sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22677|22000|2010-02-28 18:42:42|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|Welding up the trailing edge of the 16 guage trimtab, I find it best to prop it up at 45 degrees, so I'm doing a downhand weld. Then I weld an inch at a time ,and let each weld cool before puting another next to it. When I have one pass on, the second is much easier. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Just for the fun of it you must post picture of the attempts to weld 1 mm I know it can be done and I know there are very few people that can accomplish it with a degree of quality. > Soldering it will be the best bet. > Aaron > > --- On Sat, 2/27/10, wild_explorer wrote: > > > From: wild_explorer > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality? > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, February 27, 2010, 6:57 PM > > >  > > > > I might go for "hybrid" solution. One was suggested by Gord, another by Gary. Gord suggested to use brass shim stock. Good solution, but I will probably go for steel stock. Gary suggested to drill holes and "stitch it". Depending on the laser's dot diameter, it might be possible to burn holes instead of drilling. Then "stitch" plates and weld/solder it using welding rods for propane torch. > > Another possible solution to go for 1:5 scale and use 1mm steel. It should be weldable. Problem - model will be too big - 8ft ;)) I prefer to stick with 1:10 model (4ft). > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > I have company close-by which has laser-cutting equipment and I plan > > > to use 0.5mm steel for the model. > > > > Wow. How were you planning to weld that? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22678|22648|2010-02-28 19:20:18|brentswain38|Re: tropo|I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > Just my opinion > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > becoem a better user also from more use > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > all Im saying here. > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > incredible . > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > not to do it again. well hoefully > Hg > | 22679|22666|2010-02-28 20:08:23|sitefix|Re: HEATING STOVE|Hi Brent, Yeh ok, I actually have a wood stove going now heating the house. I don't cook on it though, maybe some tea water, or a breakfast or beans or soup when in the mood. Not regular like though. I am spoiled with gas. Anyways, I downloaded the wood stove plans form this site, and think that using the 8 or 10 in square pipe is a fine business idea. Currently I have some 1/4" steel cut out, and have been thinking of the sweedish design with the plate across the top of the fire box allowing gases to go up and over extracting a bit more btu's out of the box. I think it is like a model yotool 118. The only reason I was asking about the oil/diesel burner was it sounded like a decent approach from the article. I have been hunting free wood for many years. I have never paid for any, but have heated several homes from alaska, washington to delaware. Kids learn fire control and what it means to let it go out. Drink water before going to bed means adding wood at 3 am naturally. I was just thinking that an economical diesel burner, made with available parts and scrounged steel might come in handy if you run out of wood during a bad week. I have never used a diesel heater. My wife doesn't appreciate the kerosene heater that I used in the garage. Bothered her too. But it wasn't vented. I was hoping that if I vented the diesel burner, it wouldn't pose such a problem.. The idea of the wood burner in the pilot house seems the way to go, but maybe a diesel burner up forward may prove handy at times??? Ahh, too many holes in the deck heh?? I use to use a kerosene candle on a small boat. It kept the frost off my beard, but that was about it. I went into a galley that had a diesel stove, with oven, turned way down low. Man, the whole boat was toasty, nice inside, and a really foul ugly day outside. I cant imagine it in the summer though. That's why I was thinking of the small auxiliary burner, keeping a gas stove in the galley. Ok, neighbor introduced me to a novel fu fu concoction tonight. I dont think it is even polite to type the name out. What some people come up with. Sneaks up on you and does an ambush type gotcha. I better bail out now before i wax poetical or something. 6011 and 6013 tomorrow. ac and dc, working on uphill and ovhd. uscg sez i can test for 100t nc, but i need to go back to sea for 124 days for 3rd m unlimited. bummer, means another tramp ride to africa on a rice n bean boat. oh what fun. maybe a decent stew this time?? ok, thanks for the input. 73's parr --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have an oil heater which burns with a clean blue flame , yet when I use it, I cough like hell. Doesn't happen with the wood stove. > My Great Great Grandfather used wood heat all his life, played soccer on his 100th birthday and lived to 104. His son I met, when he was 100, and lived to 103 . He also used wood heat all his life. > A lady who put a woodstove in her well insulated hull last year said she spent far more on heating oil than on engine fuel and oil in a year. Wood here is free , oil very expensive. Adds up over a winter. > Reduces cruising time, which is what boats are for. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Some say that diesel heaters smell, is it thrue? > > Martin. > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: cwa@ > > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:52:09 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > > > > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > > > That is what we put in our boat. > > > Works great. > > > > > > Carl > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, > > > > > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. | 22680|22000|2010-02-28 23:31:36|wild_explorer|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|I probably have one of this (bought it on sale under $20). I got some rods too. Is it one of this you are talking about? Or is it something different? http://www.bernzomatic.com/products/kits/torch-kits.aspx They have solders for metal work and brazing rods. http://www.bernzomatic.com/products/solder-and-accessories/metal-work-solder.aspx Their fuel's flame temperature in air: Butane - 3,200F Propane - 3,450F Max Power Propylene - 3,600F http://www.bernzomatic.com/RESOURCES/GASTYPES/tabid/222/Default.aspx --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > What he did have > was a cylinder of MAPP gas. It did the trick perfectly. It was just a > little hotter, and the rod flowed very nicely with no tendency to overheat, > like you get with oxy-acetylene. It made a beautiful brazing job. > > Gary H. Lucas | 22681|21460|2010-03-01 00:02:55|wild_explorer|Re: Modeling of BS36 - advice needed|What would be the weight and (installed) dimensions of 20-30HP liquid cooled diesel engine? 4ftWx4ftLx5ftH ~500-600Lb??? How about with gear box?| 22682|21460|2010-03-01 00:19:20|Aaron Williams|Re: Modeling of BS36 - advice needed|That would be twice the size of a 1982 30 hp yanmar I looked at last year which was 600lbs  Go look at http://www.klassenengine.com  They have specs for several motors. --- On Sun, 2/28/10, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Modeling of BS36 - advice needed To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 7:59 PM   What would be the weight and (installed) dimensions of 20-30HP liquid cooled diesel engine? 4ftWx4ftLx5ftH ~500-600Lb?? ? How about with gear box? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22683|21460|2010-03-01 01:14:33|wild_explorer|Re: Modeling of BS36 - advice needed|Thanks! So, according that website, 20-25HP diesel will be about 2x2x2ft ~200-250Lb. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > That would be twice the size of a 1982 30 hp yanmar I looked at last year which was 600lbs  Go look at http://www.klassenengine.com  They have specs for several motors. > | 22684|22648|2010-03-01 01:56:28|tropical_breeze52|Re: tropo|Hi Brent You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch Cheers Hg02 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > all Im saying here. > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > incredible . > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > Hg > > > | 22685|22648|2010-03-01 03:39:28|tropical_breeze52|Re: tropo|I was just thinking about what Wild explore is trying to do and as I was writing about Gino the TnT rock poper in the mine I remembered some Kiwis that dug a hole in the ground made a concrete mold of a hull shape and placed a basic shape in metal inside it( cant remember if steel or alumimium and place explosives inside and blew it . and presto they had a hull the same shape as the concrete mold that was some years ago --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hi Brent > You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them > I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino > He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch > Cheers Hg02 > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > > all Im saying here. > > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > > incredible . > > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > > Hg > > > > > > | 22686|22648|2010-03-01 04:01:03|tropical_breeze52|Re: tropo|I saw this on a news article on ABC Tv (austalian broad cast)years ago So If wild was game enough make a cast of his paper mould in the ground with contere and buy a few fire crackers it make do the job how of much of any thing you need to do this I have know Idea but I did see the hull on Tv afterwards and it worked cant find in in Google though not sure what to seach for? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > I was just thinking about what Wild explore is trying to do and as I was writing about Gino the TnT rock poper in the mine I remembered some Kiwis that dug a hole in the ground made a concrete mold of a hull shape and placed a basic shape in metal inside it( cant remember if steel or alumimium and place explosives inside and blew it . and presto they had a hull the same shape as the concrete mold that was some years ago > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent > > You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them > > I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino > > He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch > > Cheers Hg02 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > > > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > > > all Im saying here. > > > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > > > incredible . > > > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > > > Hg > > > > > > > > > > | 22687|22648|2010-03-01 06:45:11|tropical_breeze52|Re: tropo|meant to add they used water as a shaping medium --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > I was just thinking about what Wild explore is trying to do and as I was writing about Gino the TnT rock poper in the mine I remembered some Kiwis that dug a hole in the ground made a concrete mold of a hull shape and placed a basic shape in metal inside it( cant remember if steel or alumimium and place explosives inside and blew it . and presto they had a hull the same shape as the concrete mold that was some years ago > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent > > You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them > > I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino > > He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch > > Cheers Hg02 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > > > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > > > all Im saying here. > > > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > > > incredible . > > > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > > > Hg > > > > > > > > > > | 22688|22666|2010-03-01 08:41:10|Carl Anderson|Re: HEATING STOVE|I found that using a mid-range setting, my heater would burn around 1.5 gallons in 24 hours. If set on high it was around 2 gallons in 24 hours. This was keeping the interior near 60 degrees while outside temp was in the mid 20's and boat was on the hard (that cold temp was surrounding the boat). Carl sv-mom.com Aaron Williams wrote: > > > Carl or anyone else using diesel do you have any idea on how much fuel > you burn to keep you boat heated while working while dry docked this winter? > Aaron > > --- On Sat, 2/27/10, Carl Anderson > wrote: > > From: Carl Anderson > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, February 27, 2010, 5:52 PM > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > That is what we put in our boat. > Works great. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > Ok, > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel > heaters? > > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive fire > > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / heaters, jet > > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > > > Parr > > > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, look > > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and vino. > sorry. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 22689|22666|2010-03-01 08:41:56|Carl Anderson|Re: HEATING STOVE|Less than composting toilets! martin demers wrote: > > > > > Some say that diesel heaters smell, is it thrue? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: cwa@... > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:52:09 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > > That is what we put in our boat. > > Works great. > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ok, > > > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > > > > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > > > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel > heaters? > > > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive > fire > > > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > > > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / > heaters, jet > > > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > > > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > > > > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > > > > > Parr > > > > > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > > > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > > > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, > look > > > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and > vino. sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 22690|21460|2010-03-01 08:46:24|Carl Anderson|Re: Modeling of BS36 - advice needed|My 54 HP Isuzu including gearbox is listed at 465 pounds. Carl sv-mom.com wild_explorer wrote: > > > What would be the weight and (installed) dimensions of 20-30HP liquid > cooled diesel engine? 4ftWx4ftLx5ftH ~500-600Lb??? How about with gear box? > > | 22691|21460|2010-03-01 10:20:19|Ralph|Re: Modeling of BS36 - advice needed|A Bukh 24 hp has 485 pounds including transmission --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > What would be the weight and (installed) dimensions of 20-30HP liquid cooled diesel engine? 4ftWx4ftLx5ftH ~500-600Lb??? How about with gear box? > | 22692|22666|2010-03-01 12:05:14|Matt Malone|Re: HEATING STOVE|There are all sorts of pluses and minuses of wood and oil heat. For extended cruising, I see the following problems with wood: 1) Wood will tend to absorb moisture quite readily, unless it is in a sealed plastic bag. Plastic bags full of chunks of wood do not stay sealed long. 2) Wood can go from 6% moisture to 20-30% moisture pretty easily -- when was the last time you found a diesel tank 15% full of water -- 15 liters in 100 liter tank? A liter maybe, after a long time. There are separators to separate oil and water (maybe not very good I do not know) but there is no moisture separator for wood. 3) As wood absorbs more water, it burns more poorly and more dirty, causing more problems the longer you are away from "home". Certainly diesel is the same, but it seems to me, more slowly, and one already has to be a master of diesel anyway to have a motor -- now you have to be a master of wood as well, with perhaps no fixes readily available. 4) Wood is a natural product that comes from somewhere. When you go somewhere else, is there not the potential that they will complain you might be bringing in pests ? I sure would be concerned if a small boat loaded down with cheap Southeast Asian scrap wood (firewood) pulled into Vancouver harbour. We have enough problems right now with the long-horned bettle eating our hardwoods in Ontario. I can see a lot of places taking a very by-the-book approach to such dunnage. That said, I like wood. If I were going away for only a week or two at a time, staying in the same general geographical area so importation were not an issue, then I would consider wood for heat. I would load freshly dried wood before every cruise, and off-load all unused wood at the end of the cruise back into the woodshed where I dry it. I would make my wood-heat system not too integral to any boat, so I could easily replace it with a liquid fuel or compressed-gas-based heat system for extended cruising. Those planning an extended cruise and not wanting to use CNG, propane, or some liquid fuel, might consider charcoal. It has way less tars and creasote, is very light, goes in plastic bags well (which will float if submerged), dries easily in the sun, and is easy to make on land. One can also get charcoal in most places, and "importing" charcoal is unlikely to be as much trouble because it can't have pests. Low-volatiles coal will work in a charcoal stove too. One can make charcoal from most organic material. A stove capable of burning charcoal will even burn dry, long-dead wood without getting too gummed up. However, the convenience of an energy-dense liquid fuel like diesel, that fits compactly in tanks, flows under gravity, is easily pumped, is much easier to thermostatically control... it is just too easy. And you pretty much have to have diesel onboard anyway for the engine. One might consider a heat system that runs on the same fuel as the cooking appliances, either CNG or propane if diesel heat is not desireable. Matt _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22693|22648|2010-03-01 14:58:26|brentswain38|Re: tropo|Propane and oxygen in a plastic container would do for the explosives . I keep meaning to try this. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > I was just thinking about what Wild explore is trying to do and as I was writing about Gino the TnT rock poper in the mine I remembered some Kiwis that dug a hole in the ground made a concrete mold of a hull shape and placed a basic shape in metal inside it( cant remember if steel or alumimium and place explosives inside and blew it . and presto they had a hull the same shape as the concrete mold that was some years ago > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent > > You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them > > I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino > > He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch > > Cheers Hg02 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > > > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > > > all Im saying here. > > > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > > > incredible . > > > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > > > Hg > > > > > > > > > > | 22694|22000|2010-03-01 15:30:36|brentswain38|Re: Origami boat to power away stage in 1 month. Dream or reality?|One of the problems with some bernzomatic burners is the plastic control knob, which starts to slip, and you can't turn the damned thing on or off any morte. Some use metal control nobs which work forever. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > I probably have one of this (bought it on sale under $20). I got some rods too. Is it one of this you are talking about? Or is it something different? > > http://www.bernzomatic.com/products/kits/torch-kits.aspx > > They have solders for metal work and brazing rods. > > http://www.bernzomatic.com/products/solder-and-accessories/metal-work-solder.aspx > > Their fuel's flame temperature in air: > Butane - 3,200F > Propane - 3,450F > Max Power Propylene - 3,600F > > http://www.bernzomatic.com/RESOURCES/GASTYPES/tabid/222/Default.aspx > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > > > What he did have > > was a cylinder of MAPP gas. It did the trick perfectly. It was just a > > little hotter, and the rod flowed very nicely with no tendency to overheat, > > like you get with oxy-acetylene. It made a beautiful brazing job. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > | 22695|22666|2010-03-01 15:32:32|brentswain38|Re: HEATING STOVE|That's a huge expense, if you are living aboard full time in a BC winter.More than my entire cost of living. Not much for summer cruisers. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I found that using a mid-range setting, my heater would burn around 1.5 > gallons in 24 hours. If set on high it was around 2 gallons in 24 > hours. This was keeping the interior near 60 degrees while outside temp > was in the mid 20's and boat was on the hard (that cold temp was > surrounding the boat). > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > > Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > > Carl or anyone else using diesel do you have any idea on how much fuel > > you burn to keep you boat heated while working while dry docked this winter? > > Aaron > > > > --- On Sat, 2/27/10, Carl Anderson > > wrote: > > > > From: Carl Anderson > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Saturday, February 27, 2010, 5:52 PM > > > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > > That is what we put in our boat. > > Works great. > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ok, > > > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > > > > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > > > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel > > heaters? > > > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive fire > > > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > > > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / heaters, jet > > > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > > > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > > > > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > > > > > Parr > > > > > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > > > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > > > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, look > > > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and vino. > > sorry. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 22696|22648|2010-03-01 15:35:03|brentswain38|Re: tropo|I would have given my right arm for such a welder, before I discovered alternator welders, which do every thing I need a welder for. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hi Brent > You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them > I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino > He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch > Cheers Hg02 > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > > all Im saying here. > > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > > incredible . > > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > > Hg > > > > > > | 22697|22666|2010-03-01 15:36:33|brentswain38|Re: HEATING STOVE|Not neccessarily. My composter doesn't make me cough continuously. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Less than composting toilets! > > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Some say that diesel heaters smell, is it thrue? > > Martin. > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: cwa@... > > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:52:09 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > > > > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > > > That is what we put in our boat. > > > Works great. > > > > > > Carl > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, > > > > > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > > > > > > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > > > > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel > > heaters? > > > > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive > > fire > > > > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > > > > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / > > heaters, jet > > > > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > > > > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > > > > > > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > > > > > > > Parr > > > > > > > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > > > > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > > > > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, > > look > > > > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and > > vino. sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 22698|21460|2010-03-01 15:47:29|brentswain38|Re: Modeling of BS36 - advice needed|My 27 hp Isuzu is around 365 Lbs. The light air performance has dropped of since I dumped my `10 hp aircooled diesel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > What would be the weight and (installed) dimensions of 20-30HP liquid cooled diesel engine? 4ftWx4ftLx5ftH ~500-600Lb??? How about with gear box? > | 22699|22666|2010-03-01 15:49:23|brentswain38|Re: HEATING STOVE|The guy I sold my last boat to fished all the wood he needed out of the water alongside his boat, to heat her for the winter. Moisture simply means cleaning the stovepipe more often. I use a chimney fire for that. Get it started with diesel, then dump water on the stove pipe till the fire goes out. No problem. The last two trips I went south. I left my woodstove behind, a big mistake last time, as it got cold around 33 north in may. Next time I will take enough wood to get me to the warm water , store my extra food and wood in the forepeak. Then, when it gets warm, store it in the stove and chimney. Comming north, I will tie my firewood in bundles and let it hang overboard for a couple of days, to get the scorpions out, then dry it on deck and store it in the forepeak and under the dinghy on deck. I will throw the leftovers overboard just before making landfall. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > There are all sorts of pluses and minuses of wood and oil heat. For extended cruising, I see the following problems with wood: > > > > 1) Wood will tend to absorb moisture quite readily, unless it is in a sealed plastic bag. Plastic bags full of chunks of wood do not stay sealed long. > > > > 2) Wood can go from 6% moisture to 20-30% moisture pretty easily -- when was the last time you found a diesel tank 15% full of water -- 15 liters in 100 liter tank? A liter maybe, after a long time. There are separators to separate oil and water (maybe not very good I do not know) but there is no moisture separator for wood. > > > > 3) As wood absorbs more water, it burns more poorly and more dirty, causing more problems the longer you are away from "home". Certainly diesel is the same, but it seems to me, more slowly, and one already has to be a master of diesel anyway to have a motor -- now you have to be a master of wood as well, with perhaps no fixes readily available. > > > > 4) Wood is a natural product that comes from somewhere. When you go somewhere else, is there not the potential that they will complain you might be bringing in pests ? I sure would be concerned if a small boat loaded down with cheap Southeast Asian scrap wood (firewood) pulled into Vancouver harbour. We have enough problems right now with the long-horned bettle eating our hardwoods in Ontario. I can see a lot of places taking a very by-the-book approach to such dunnage. > > > That said, I like wood. If I were going away for only a week or two at a time, staying in the same general geographical area so importation were not an issue, then I would consider wood for heat. I would load freshly dried wood before every cruise, and off-load all unused wood at the end of the cruise back into the woodshed where I dry it. > > > > I would make my wood-heat system not too integral to any boat, so I could easily replace it with a liquid fuel or compressed-gas-based heat system for extended cruising. > > > > Those planning an extended cruise and not wanting to use CNG, propane, or some liquid fuel, might consider charcoal. It has way less tars and creasote, is very light, goes in plastic bags well (which will float if submerged), dries easily in the sun, and is easy to make on land. One can also get charcoal in most places, and "importing" charcoal is unlikely to be as much trouble because it can't have pests. Low-volatiles coal will work in a charcoal stove too. One can make charcoal from most organic material. A stove capable of burning charcoal will even burn dry, long-dead wood without getting too gummed up. > > > > However, the convenience of an energy-dense liquid fuel like diesel, that fits compactly in tanks, flows under gravity, is easily pumped, is much easier to thermostatically control... it is just too easy. And you pretty much have to have diesel onboard anyway for the engine. > > > > One might consider a heat system that runs on the same fuel as the cooking appliances, either CNG or propane if diesel heat is not desireable. > > > > Matt > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22700|22666|2010-03-01 16:08:11|martin demers|Re: HEATING STOVE|Carl, I read that composting toilets (air head..) didn't smell... Martin. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: cwa@... > Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 06:36:53 -0700 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > Less than composting toilets! > > martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Some say that diesel heaters smell, is it thrue? > > Martin. > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: cwa@... > > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:52:09 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > > > > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > > > That is what we put in our boat. > > > Works great. > > > > > > Carl > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, > > > > > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > > > > > > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > > > > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel > > heaters? > > > > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive > > fire > > > > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > > > > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / > > heaters, jet > > > > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > > > > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > > > > > > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > > > > > > > Parr > > > > > > > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > > > > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > > > > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, > > look > > > > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and > > vino. sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22701|22701|2010-03-01 16:31:20|k`pasa h'en han s`a|I want out of this group|How do I get out of this group?   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22702|21460|2010-03-01 20:24:04|theboilerflue|Re: Modeling of BS36 - advice needed|Mines about 350 or so. something "possible to m0ve by oneself but really needs two people (and a hoist helps, I made one out of 2x4 braced against the cabin top edge) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > My 27 hp Isuzu is around 365 Lbs. The light air performance has dropped of since I dumped my `10 hp aircooled diesel. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > > > What would be the weight and (installed) dimensions of 20-30HP liquid cooled diesel engine? 4ftWx4ftLx5ftH ~500-600Lb??? How about with gear box? > > > | 22703|22648|2010-03-01 20:27:57|theboilerflue|Re: tropo|you must have an incredible trust in these welders Brent to think they'd allow you to weld with one arm and you bad one at that! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I would have given my right arm for such a welder, before I discovered alternator welders, which do every thing I need a welder for. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hi Brent > > You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them > > I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino > > He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch > > Cheers Hg02 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > > > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > > > all Im saying here. > > > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > > > incredible . > > > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > > > Hg > > > > > > > > > > | 22704|22666|2010-03-01 20:34:03|GP|Re: HEATING STOVE|Hi Brent... you mentioned someone adapting a wood stove to fit the Sigmar... anything more to that... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I have an oil heater which burns with a clean blue flame , yet when I use it, I cough like hell. Doesn't happen with the wood stove. > My Great Great Grandfather used wood heat all his life, played soccer on his 100th birthday and lived to 104. His son I met, when he was 100, and lived to 103 . He also used wood heat all his life. > A lady who put a woodstove in her well insulated hull last year said she spent far more on heating oil than on engine fuel and oil in a year. Wood here is free , oil very expensive. Adds up over a winter. > Reduces cruising time, which is what boats are for. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Some say that diesel heaters smell, is it thrue? > > Martin. > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: cwa@ > > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:52:09 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > > > > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > > > That is what we put in our boat. > > > Works great. > > > > > > Carl > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, > > > > > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > > > > > > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > > > > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel heaters? > > > > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive fire > > > > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > > > > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / heaters, jet > > > > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > > > > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > > > > > > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > > > > > > > Parr > > > > > > > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > > > > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > > > > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, look > > > > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and vino. sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22705|22666|2010-03-01 20:37:41|markh|Re: HEATING STOVE|Didn't somebody post plans for woodburning stoves on this site about a year ago--kept a copy but can't finD--would love to have again. MarkH| 22706|22706|2010-03-01 20:38:06|theboilerflue|40ft mast for sale in vancouver for anyone building a 31 footer $750|http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rch/boa/1623961500.html| 22707|22666|2010-03-01 20:59:18|steve|Re: HEATING STOVE|One could take the same approach for boat heating as J-M on his 50' aluminum origami boat who lives in Shearwater, BC. He has two woodstoves and two diesel heaters ( drip carburetor , not forced air) aboard, along with a small hot-tub, heated by a stove. He's not fooling around : when he gets cold he wants to get warm. I've used a sigmar 120 diesel heater for 15 yrs with lots of fiddling, but general reliability. A friend in Comox has his Sigmar going all winter long , full-time and he's tied up in the marina living aboard. He could use shore-power but prefers the diesel heater. He also leaves it running unattended , which always has worried me a bit. Can't beat wood for heat in BC for economy. If I was going to get a new heater ,I would look at a very small wood heater AND a separate Refleks diesel heater (Norwegian). Stright-Mackay in Nova Scotia sell the Refleks units. They look beautiful , all shiny rounded stainless. I have just finished plumbing in a 'bus heater' using the engine coolant heat. Puts out heat after 5 minutes of engine running. This unit is distributed by Dickinson , a 'Radex'. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > There are all sorts of pluses and minuses of wood and oil heat. For extended cruising, I see the following problems with wood: > > > > 1) Wood will tend to absorb moisture quite readily, unless it is in a sealed plastic bag. Plastic bags full of chunks of wood do not stay sealed long. > > > > 2) Wood can go from 6% moisture to 20-30% moisture pretty easily -- when was the last time you found a diesel tank 15% full of water -- 15 liters in 100 liter tank? A liter maybe, after a long time. There are separators to separate oil and water (maybe not very good I do not know) but there is no moisture separator for wood. > > > > 3) As wood absorbs more water, it burns more poorly and more dirty, causing more problems the longer you are away from "home". Certainly diesel is the same, but it seems to me, more slowly, and one already has to be a master of diesel anyway to have a motor -- now you have to be a master of wood as well, with perhaps no fixes readily available. > > > > 4) Wood is a natural product that comes from somewhere. When you go somewhere else, is there not the potential that they will complain you might be bringing in pests ? I sure would be concerned if a small boat loaded down with cheap Southeast Asian scrap wood (firewood) pulled into Vancouver harbour. We have enough problems right now with the long-horned bettle eating our hardwoods in Ontario. I can see a lot of places taking a very by-the-book approach to such dunnage. > > > That said, I like wood. If I were going away for only a week or two at a time, staying in the same general geographical area so importation were not an issue, then I would consider wood for heat. I would load freshly dried wood before every cruise, and off-load all unused wood at the end of the cruise back into the woodshed where I dry it. > > > > I would make my wood-heat system not too integral to any boat, so I could easily replace it with a liquid fuel or compressed-gas-based heat system for extended cruising. > > > > Those planning an extended cruise and not wanting to use CNG, propane, or some liquid fuel, might consider charcoal. It has way less tars and creasote, is very light, goes in plastic bags well (which will float if submerged), dries easily in the sun, and is easy to make on land. One can also get charcoal in most places, and "importing" charcoal is unlikely to be as much trouble because it can't have pests. Low-volatiles coal will work in a charcoal stove too. One can make charcoal from most organic material. A stove capable of burning charcoal will even burn dry, long-dead wood without getting too gummed up. > > > > However, the convenience of an energy-dense liquid fuel like diesel, that fits compactly in tanks, flows under gravity, is easily pumped, is much easier to thermostatically control... it is just too easy. And you pretty much have to have diesel onboard anyway for the engine. > > > > One might consider a heat system that runs on the same fuel as the cooking appliances, either CNG or propane if diesel heat is not desireable. > > > > Matt > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22708|22666|2010-03-01 21:24:17|markh|Re: HEATING STOVE|Found the plans in the files > Didn't somebody post plans for woodburning stoves on this site about a > year > ago | 22709|22666|2010-03-01 21:34:54|Carl Anderson|Re: HEATING STOVE|Steve, Interesting in that I just got a Radex heater to install in MOM so I don't waste any of the engine heat when needed. Where in your cooling system did you plumb it? Carl steve wrote: > > > One could take the same approach for boat heating as J-M on his 50' > aluminum origami boat who lives in Shearwater, BC. He has two woodstoves > and two diesel heaters ( drip carburetor , not forced air) aboard, along > with a small hot-tub, heated by a stove. He's not fooling around : when > he gets cold he wants to get warm. > > I've used a sigmar 120 diesel heater for 15 yrs with lots of fiddling, > but general reliability. > > A friend in Comox has his Sigmar going all winter long , full-time and > he's tied up in the marina living aboard. He could use shore-power but > prefers the diesel heater. He also leaves it running unattended , which > always has worried me a bit. > > Can't beat wood for heat in BC for economy. > > If I was going to get a new heater ,I would look at a very small wood > heater AND a separate Refleks diesel heater (Norwegian). Stright-Mackay > in Nova Scotia sell the Refleks units. They look beautiful , all shiny > rounded stainless. > > I have just finished plumbing in a 'bus heater' using the engine coolant > heat. Puts out heat after 5 minutes of engine running. This unit is > distributed by Dickinson , a 'Radex'. > > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There are all sorts of pluses and minuses of wood and oil heat. For > extended cruising, I see the following problems with wood: > > > > > > > > 1) Wood will tend to absorb moisture quite readily, unless it is in a > sealed plastic bag. Plastic bags full of chunks of wood do not stay > sealed long. > > > > > > > > 2) Wood can go from 6% moisture to 20-30% moisture pretty easily -- > when was the last time you found a diesel tank 15% full of water -- 15 > liters in 100 liter tank? A liter maybe, after a long time. There are > separators to separate oil and water (maybe not very good I do not know) > but there is no moisture separator for wood. > > > > > > > > 3) As wood absorbs more water, it burns more poorly and more dirty, > causing more problems the longer you are away from "home". Certainly > diesel is the same, but it seems to me, more slowly, and one already has > to be a master of diesel anyway to have a motor -- now you have to be a > master of wood as well, with perhaps no fixes readily available. > > > > > > > > 4) Wood is a natural product that comes from somewhere. When you go > somewhere else, is there not the potential that they will complain you > might be bringing in pests ? I sure would be concerned if a small boat > loaded down with cheap Southeast Asian scrap wood (firewood) pulled into > Vancouver harbour. We have enough problems right now with the > long-horned bettle eating our hardwoods in Ontario. I can see a lot of > places taking a very by-the-book approach to such dunnage. > > > > > > That said, I like wood. If I were going away for only a week or two > at a time, staying in the same general geographical area so importation > were not an issue, then I would consider wood for heat. I would load > freshly dried wood before every cruise, and off-load all unused wood at > the end of the cruise back into the woodshed where I dry it. > > > > > > > > I would make my wood-heat system not too integral to any boat, so I > could easily replace it with a liquid fuel or compressed-gas-based heat > system for extended cruising. > > > > > > > > Those planning an extended cruise and not wanting to use CNG, > propane, or some liquid fuel, might consider charcoal. It has way less > tars and creasote, is very light, goes in plastic bags well (which will > float if submerged), dries easily in the sun, and is easy to make on > land. One can also get charcoal in most places, and "importing" charcoal > is unlikely to be as much trouble because it can't have pests. > Low-volatiles coal will work in a charcoal stove too. One can make > charcoal from most organic material. A stove capable of burning charcoal > will even burn dry, long-dead wood without getting too gummed up. > > > > > > > > However, the convenience of an energy-dense liquid fuel like diesel, > that fits compactly in tanks, flows under gravity, is easily pumped, is > much easier to thermostatically control... it is just too easy. And you > pretty much have to have diesel onboard anyway for the engine. > > > > > > > > One might consider a heat system that runs on the same fuel as the > cooking appliances, either CNG or propane if diesel heat is not desireable. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 22710|21460|2010-03-02 00:39:33|Gord Schnell|Re: Modeling of BS36 - advice needed|I'm using a VW 1.6L diesel in my 40'. I welded "deep" nuts to the interior of the cabintop. This allows me to bolt "T" track to the underside of the cabin top, fasten a chain hoist to a "car" on the track and lift my engine/transmission out of the keel and into the cockpit for overhaul. Used it once to install the engine and once to remove and rebuild the engine. Gord On 1-Mar-10, at 5:23 PM, theboilerflue wrote: > Mines about 350 or so. something "possible to m0ve by oneself but > really needs two people (and a hoist helps, I made one out of 2x4 > braced against the cabin top edge) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > My 27 hp Isuzu is around 365 Lbs. The light air performance has > dropped of since I dumped my `10 hp aircooled diesel. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" > wrote: > > > > > > What would be the weight and (installed) dimensions of 20-30HP > liquid cooled diesel engine? 4ftWx4ftLx5ftH ~500-600Lb??? How about > with gear box? > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22711|22666|2010-03-02 00:52:29|steve|Re: HEATING STOVE|Carl , I put a tee fitting on the hole in the thermostat housing for the temp sensor, for one hose. For the other hose I found a threaded plug in the water pump housing that, when removed, will accept a standard threaded nipple. I put valves on both hoses right near the engine. Like all these projects it is simple only in retrospect. The above description represents weeks of thinking and asking questions and fiddling around and trips to the plumbing store. Note that the copper pipes on the back of the Radex are not standard plumbing size, they are for refrigeration service. This may save you some time. I mounted the heater just below the companionway and it blows heat forward into the pilothouse and main cabin. This means the hoses are only a couple of feet long. Unfortunately the damn thing only works when the engine is on (little joke there). But I think it will be effective enough to be able to shut down the diesel heater. No effect on engine cooling and the temp sensor seems to read normally despite being on a tee with the heater hose. Initially I assumed I would plumb it in series with the main cooling circuit , but I think this is better. On the ham radio 17m has been amazing recently ! Steve| 22712|22648|2010-03-02 01:27:29|tropical_breeze52|Re: tropo|From what I remember the concrete seemed to be 2 or 3 ft wide the boat size would have been around 30 ft I cant remember the process but water was added inside the hull and then exploded the water forced out the sheet metal to the shape molded on the concrete so I belive wild could make the scaled model and do the same process just becareful of this tropical rambeling cant find it on google Ill keep looking cheers HG02 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Propane and oxygen in a plastic container would do for the explosives . I keep meaning to try this. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > I was just thinking about what Wild explore is trying to do and as I was writing about Gino the TnT rock poper in the mine I remembered some Kiwis that dug a hole in the ground made a concrete mold of a hull shape and placed a basic shape in metal inside it( cant remember if steel or alumimium and place explosives inside and blew it . and presto they had a hull the same shape as the concrete mold that was some years ago > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent > > > You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them > > > I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino > > > He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch > > > Cheers Hg02 > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > > > > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > > > > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > > > > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > > > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > > > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > > > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > > > > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > > > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > > > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > > > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > > > > all Im saying here. > > > > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > > > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > > > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > > > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > > > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > > > > incredible . > > > > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > > > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > > > > Hg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22713|22666|2010-03-02 01:38:32|Aaron Williams|Re: HEATING STOVE|Steve If you need to have more heat go buy a heater core for a 1982 ford escort about $30 (at Nappa anyway) then build a plywood box add to 12vdc computer fans $2 each on ebay, The heater you have is a perfect example of how to build the box. Aaron --- On Mon, 3/1/10, steve wrote: From: steve Subject: [origamiboats] Re: HEATING STOVE To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 7:58 PM   Carl , I put a tee fitting on the hole in the thermostat housing for the temp sensor, for one hose. For the other hose I found a threaded plug in the water pump housing that, when removed, will accept a standard threaded nipple. I put valves on both hoses right near the engine. Like all these projects it is simple only in retrospect. The above description represents weeks of thinking and asking questions and fiddling around and trips to the plumbing store. Note that the copper pipes on the back of the Radex are not standard plumbing size, they are for refrigeration service. This may save you some time. I mounted the heater just below the companionway and it blows heat forward into the pilothouse and main cabin. This means the hoses are only a couple of feet long. Unfortunately the damn thing only works when the engine is on (little joke there). But I think it will be effective enough to be able to shut down the diesel heater. No effect on engine cooling and the temp sensor seems to read normally despite being on a tee with the heater hose. Initially I assumed I would plumb it in series with the main cooling circuit , but I think this is better. On the ham radio 17m has been amazing recently ! Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22714|22648|2010-03-02 01:39:41|tropical_breeze52|Re: tropo|check this link out if you want a laugh Kiwis boat designs http://news.ninemsn.com.au/video.aspx?videoid=1D59C0E0-1047-410D-814D-0D20E1F468CB just put up with the add first --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > From what I remember the concrete seemed to be 2 or 3 ft wide the boat size would have been around 30 ft I cant remember the process but water was added inside the hull and then exploded the water forced out the sheet metal to the shape molded on the concrete so I belive wild could make the scaled model and do the same process just becareful of this tropical rambeling cant find it on google Ill keep looking > cheers HG02 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Propane and oxygen in a plastic container would do for the explosives . I keep meaning to try this. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > I was just thinking about what Wild explore is trying to do and as I was writing about Gino the TnT rock poper in the mine I remembered some Kiwis that dug a hole in the ground made a concrete mold of a hull shape and placed a basic shape in metal inside it( cant remember if steel or alumimium and place explosives inside and blew it . and presto they had a hull the same shape as the concrete mold that was some years ago > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Brent > > > > You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them > > > > I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino > > > > He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch > > > > Cheers Hg02 > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > > > > > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > > > > > > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > > > > > > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > > > > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > > > > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > > > > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > > > > > > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > > > > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > > > > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > > > > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > > > > > all Im saying here. > > > > > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > > > > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > > > > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > > > > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > > > > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > > > > > incredible . > > > > > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > > > > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > > > > > Hg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22715|22648|2010-03-02 02:23:05|tropical_breeze52|Re: tropo|only link so far is this but the video I saw the hull when exploded didnt have a lid as some one was saying in this link http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/hydroformed-metal-hull-31226.html --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > check this link out if you want a laugh Kiwis boat designs > http://news.ninemsn.com.au/video.aspx?videoid=1D59C0E0-1047-410D-814D-0D20E1F468CB > just put up with the add first > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > From what I remember the concrete seemed to be 2 or 3 ft wide the boat size would have been around 30 ft I cant remember the process but water was added inside the hull and then exploded the water forced out the sheet metal to the shape molded on the concrete so I belive wild could make the scaled model and do the same process just becareful of this tropical rambeling cant find it on google Ill keep looking > > cheers HG02 > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > Propane and oxygen in a plastic container would do for the explosives . I keep meaning to try this. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > I was just thinking about what Wild explore is trying to do and as I was writing about Gino the TnT rock poper in the mine I remembered some Kiwis that dug a hole in the ground made a concrete mold of a hull shape and placed a basic shape in metal inside it( cant remember if steel or alumimium and place explosives inside and blew it . and presto they had a hull the same shape as the concrete mold that was some years ago > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent > > > > > You could just use a few batteriers wired up together that works I had a friend has a special car full of batteries layed out all over the floor with out seats when he needed to weld. DC welding via the batteries works well if you have enough of them > > > > > I once had an old work mate I(italian ) called Gino > > > > > He used to pop big rocks in a mine I worked in when I had a very rusty nut Id get Gino to pop it with some jelly(TNT) better than hoseless cutting torch > > > > > Cheers Hg02 > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been using a tiny inverter welder. Works wunnerful , even on 120 volts, a huge improvement over the 120 volt welders of a few years ago. They were hopeless. > > > > > > Now what we need is a cordless welder and hoseless cutting torch. Won't hold my breath for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics there was a term use to describe such rantings; that was "tropo" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fear this tropical wind blows hard but achieves little ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just my opinion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like my plasma cutter and the silly old man using it it doesnt cut 1/2 very > > > > > > > well and its book state it will cut 16 mm. but in a few years there will be a > > > > > > > break through and a small plsama will cut 16 mm properly. and I will or might > > > > > > > becoem a better user also from more use > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im not sure what the boat design soft ware does so In not the judge . I might > > > > > > > be wrong proabbly are dosent is generate your sail size for the boat you design > > > > > > > on it does it give you a nice anncor winch like Brent has does it tell you that > > > > > > > if you build it with bilge keels that you can save money on mariner fees thats > > > > > > > all Im saying here. > > > > > > > I remember in 1984 I had a comodore 64 PC and found out there was a modem you > > > > > > > could buy and using your phone line dial up a phone number and I could go into > > > > > > > my bank account and a few sites there wasnt a lot more in there then look at > > > > > > > what it has be come now ( the internet)I love it my own personal libary > > > > > > > right at my finger tips and what it will be come and has done is truly > > > > > > > incredible . > > > > > > > we all live in fowards backs land if I stuff some thing up I fix it and remember > > > > > > > not to do it again. well hoefully > > > > > > > Hg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22716|22666|2010-03-02 07:30:41|Matt Malone|Re: HEATING STOVE|Yes, I used chimney fires also to clean the chimney -- in my cabin -- straight stove pipe that goes through the roof with a 8" free air-space clearance to a flashing that allows heat to escape. Even then I watch it, the stove pipe can easily get red hot. I think a lot of fires happen when people try this. Chimney fires should be used with extreme caution. Hang it overboard to get the scorpions out... Novel solution to an unexpected problem. Matt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 20:11:51 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: HEATING STOVE The guy I sold my last boat to fished all the wood he needed out of the water alongside his boat, to heat her for the winter. Moisture simply means cleaning the stovepipe more often. I use a chimney fire for that. Get it started with diesel, then dump water on the stove pipe till the fire goes out. No problem. The last two trips I went south. I left my woodstove behind, a big mistake last time, as it got cold around 33 north in may. Next time I will take enough wood to get me to the warm water , store my extra food and wood in the forepeak. Then, when it gets warm, store it in the stove and chimney. Comming north, I will tie my firewood in bundles and let it hang overboard for a couple of days, to get the scorpions out, then dry it on deck and store it in the forepeak and under the dinghy on deck. I will throw the leftovers overboard just before making landfall. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > There are all sorts of pluses and minuses of wood and oil heat. For extended cruising, I see the following problems with wood: > > > > 1) Wood will tend to absorb moisture quite readily, unless it is in a sealed plastic bag. Plastic bags full of chunks of wood do not stay sealed long. > > > > 2) Wood can go from 6% moisture to 20-30% moisture pretty easily -- when was the last time you found a diesel tank 15% full of water -- 15 liters in 100 liter tank? A liter maybe, after a long time. There are separators to separate oil and water (maybe not very good I do not know) but there is no moisture separator for wood. > > > > 3) As wood absorbs more water, it burns more poorly and more dirty, causing more problems the longer you are away from "home". Certainly diesel is the same, but it seems to me, more slowly, and one already has to be a master of diesel anyway to have a motor -- now you have to be a master of wood as well, with perhaps no fixes readily available. > > > > 4) Wood is a natural product that comes from somewhere. When you go somewhere else, is there not the potential that they will complain you might be bringing in pests ? I sure would be concerned if a small boat loaded down with cheap Southeast Asian scrap wood (firewood) pulled into Vancouver harbour. We have enough problems right now with the long-horned bettle eating our hardwoods in Ontario. I can see a lot of places taking a very by-the-book approach to such dunnage. > > > That said, I like wood. If I were going away for only a week or two at a time, staying in the same general geographical area so importation were not an issue, then I would consider wood for heat. I would load freshly dried wood before every cruise, and off-load all unused wood at the end of the cruise back into the woodshed where I dry it. > > > > I would make my wood-heat system not too integral to any boat, so I could easily replace it with a liquid fuel or compressed-gas-based heat system for extended cruising. > > > > Those planning an extended cruise and not wanting to use CNG, propane, or some liquid fuel, might consider charcoal. It has way less tars and creasote, is very light, goes in plastic bags well (which will float if submerged), dries easily in the sun, and is easy to make on land. One can also get charcoal in most places, and "importing" charcoal is unlikely to be as much trouble because it can't have pests. Low-volatiles coal will work in a charcoal stove too. One can make charcoal from most organic material. A stove capable of burning charcoal will even burn dry, long-dead wood without getting too gummed up. > > > > However, the convenience of an energy-dense liquid fuel like diesel, that fits compactly in tanks, flows under gravity, is easily pumped, is much easier to thermostatically control... it is just too easy. And you pretty much have to have diesel onboard anyway for the engine. > > > > One might consider a heat system that runs on the same fuel as the cooking appliances, either CNG or propane if diesel heat is not desireable. > > > > Matt > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Check your Hotmail from your phone. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712957 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22717|22666|2010-03-02 08:05:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: HEATING STOVE|On Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 07:30:04AM -0500, Matt Malone wrote: > > > Yes, I used chimney fires also to clean the chimney -- in my cabin -- > straight stove pipe that goes through the roof with a 8" free > air-space clearance to a flashing that allows heat to escape. Even > then I watch it, the stove pipe can easily get red hot. I think a lot > of fires happen when people try this. Chimney fires should be used > with extreme caution. > > Hang it overboard to get the scorpions out... Novel solution to an > unexpected problem. It's pretty similar to what you should do with all the fruit and vegetables you buy in the islands, to get rid of the bugs in them before you bring them aboard: stick them in a mesh bag and hang them over the side. Some people like to use a bucket with water and bleach, but I consider that a waste of money: you're floating in an ocean full of salt water... -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22718|22666|2010-03-02 15:48:43|steve|Re: HEATING STOVE|Why an 82 Ford Escort ? Is it about the right size or some other reason ? Certainly cheaper, which is good. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Steve > If you need to have more heat go buy a heater core for a 1982 ford escort about $30 (at Nappa anyway) then build a plywood box add to 12vdc computer fans $2 each on ebay, The heater you have is a perfect example of how to build the box. > Aaron > > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, steve wrote: > > > From: steve > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: HEATING STOVE > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 7:58 PM > > >   > > > > Carl , I put a tee fitting on the hole in the thermostat housing for the temp sensor, for one hose. For the other hose I found a threaded plug in the water pump housing that, when removed, will accept a standard threaded nipple. I put valves on both hoses right near the engine. > Like all these projects it is simple only in retrospect. > The above description represents weeks of thinking and asking questions and fiddling around and trips to the plumbing store. > > Note that the copper pipes on the back of the Radex are not standard plumbing size, they are for refrigeration service. This may save you some time. > > I mounted the heater just below the companionway and it blows heat forward into the pilothouse and main cabin. This means the hoses are only a couple of feet long. > Unfortunately the damn thing only works when the engine is on (little joke there). But I think it will be effective enough to be able to shut down the diesel heater. > > No effect on engine cooling and the temp sensor seems to read normally despite being on a tee with the heater hose. > > Initially I assumed I would plumb it in series with the main cooling circuit , but I think this is better. > > On the ham radio 17m has been amazing recently ! > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22719|22|2010-03-02 16:47:44|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Heaters/IMG_0902[1].JPG Uploaded by : akenai Description : Heater core design You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Heaters/IMG_0902%5B1%5D.JPG To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles Regards, akenai | 22720|22666|2010-03-02 17:09:34|Aaron Williams|Re: HEATING STOVE|The best I could tell was best price for size. I spent some time looking for something bigger but the price jumps to $100 +  If you have an old auto yard go look for a suburban If I remember reight they have one 2-1/2" thick X 8" X 16". I had read to daisy chain several and just use a thermastat for each if needed. --- On Tue, 3/2/10, steve wrote: From: steve Subject: [origamiboats] Re: HEATING STOVE To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 11:14 AM   Why an 82 Ford Escort ? Is it about the right size or some other reason ? Certainly cheaper, which is good. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Steve > If you need to have more heat go buy a heater core for a 1982 ford escort about $30 (at Nappa anyway) then build a plywood box add to 12vdc computer fans $2 each on ebay, The heater you have is a perfect example of how to build the box. > Aaron > > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, steve wrote: > > > From: steve > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: HEATING STOVE > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 7:58 PM > > >   > > > > Carl , I put a tee fitting on the hole in the thermostat housing for the temp sensor, for one hose. For the other hose I found a threaded plug in the water pump housing that, when removed, will accept a standard threaded nipple. I put valves on both hoses right near the engine. > Like all these projects it is simple only in retrospect. > The above description represents weeks of thinking and asking questions and fiddling around and trips to the plumbing store. > > Note that the copper pipes on the back of the Radex are not standard plumbing size, they are for refrigeration service. This may save you some time. > > I mounted the heater just below the companionway and it blows heat forward into the pilothouse and main cabin. This means the hoses are only a couple of feet long. > Unfortunately the damn thing only works when the engine is on (little joke there). But I think it will be effective enough to be able to shut down the diesel heater. > > No effect on engine cooling and the temp sensor seems to read normally despite being on a tee with the heater hose. > > Initially I assumed I would plumb it in series with the main cooling circuit , but I think this is better. > > On the ham radio 17m has been amazing recently ! > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22721|22666|2010-03-02 17:33:21|Doug Jackson|Re: HEATING STOVE|Might also look around for an old school bus. We scraped one that had two units on it with the coils, 12v blower fans, switches, and 40ft of hose. Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ________________________________ From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 3:40:19 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: HEATING STOVE The best I could tell was best price for size. I spent some time looking for something bigger but the price jumps to $100 + If you have an old auto yard go look for a suburban If I remember reight they have one 2-1/2" thick X 8" X 16". I had read to daisy chain several and just use a thermastat for each if needed. --- On Tue, 3/2/10, steve wrote: From: steve Subject: [origamiboats] Re: HEATING STOVE To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 11:14 AM Why an 82 Ford Escort ? Is it about the right size or some other reason ? Certainly cheaper, which is good. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Steve > If you need to have more heat go buy a heater core for a 1982 ford escort about $30 (at Nappa anyway) then build a plywood box add to 12vdc computer fans $2 each on ebay, The heater you have is a perfect example of how to build the box. > Aaron > > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, steve wrote: > > > From: steve > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: HEATING STOVE > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 7:58 PM > > >  > > > > Carl , I put a tee fitting on the hole in the thermostat housing for the temp sensor, for one hose. For the other hose I found a threaded plug in the water pump housing that, when removed, will accept a standard threaded nipple. I put valves on both hoses right near the engine. > Like all these projects it is simple only in retrospect. > The above description represents weeks of thinking and asking questions and fiddling around and trips to the plumbing store. > > Note that the copper pipes on the back of the Radex are not standard plumbing size, they are for refrigeration service. This may save you some time. > > I mounted the heater just below the companionway and it blows heat forward into the pilothouse and main cabin. This means the hoses are only a couple of feet long. > Unfortunately the damn thing only works when the engine is on (little joke there). But I think it will be effective enough to be able to shut down the diesel heater. > > No effect on engine cooling and the temp sensor seems to read normally despite being on a tee with the heater hose. > > Initially I assumed I would plumb it in series with the main cooling circuit , but I think this is better. > > On the ham radio 17m has been amazing recently ! > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22722|22666|2010-03-03 12:27:11|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: HEATING STOVE|There is information available on biomass stoves from those aiming to improve sustainability and efficency in the third world. They seem to have developed some interesting designs including small stoves. http://www.bioenergylists.org/en/stoves A wood burner that would fit on top of my Dickinson Pacific and the flu feed the existing chimney would be good. ianabc Ian in Royston BC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22723|22723|2010-03-04 14:31:44|rooster|Main hatch|What is the hieght and width for a Brent style main hatch on the 40 footer. Thanks Jason| 22724|22666|2010-03-04 14:38:24|brentswain38|Re: HEATING STOVE|Andy was talking about building a stainless wood stove to fit he same pipes and in the same place as the Sigmar, to stash ashore for when the price of fuel goes sky high. There is a piece of 12 inch stainless pipe in Royston I can help you build into such a stove, if you want. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > Hi Brent... you mentioned someone adapting a wood stove to fit the Sigmar... anything more to that... > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I have an oil heater which burns with a clean blue flame , yet when I use it, I cough like hell. Doesn't happen with the wood stove. > > My Great Great Grandfather used wood heat all his life, played soccer on his 100th birthday and lived to 104. His son I met, when he was 100, and lived to 103 . He also used wood heat all his life. > > A lady who put a woodstove in her well insulated hull last year said she spent far more on heating oil than on engine fuel and oil in a year. Wood here is free , oil very expensive. Adds up over a winter. > > Reduces cruising time, which is what boats are for. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some say that diesel heaters smell, is it thrue? > > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: cwa@ > > > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:52:09 -0700 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > > > > > > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > > > > That is what we put in our boat. > > > > Works great. > > > > > > > > Carl > > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > > > > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, > > > > > > > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > > > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > > > > > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel heaters? > > > > > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive fire > > > > > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > > > > > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / heaters, jet > > > > > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > > > > > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > > > > > > > > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > > > > > > > > > Parr > > > > > > > > > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > > > > > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > > > > > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, look > > > > > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and vino. sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 22725|22666|2010-03-04 14:44:13|brentswain38|Re: HEATING STOVE|I remember helping a friend in a cold boat one January day, with the diesel pumping all the heat into the ocean, while we froze. Seemed kinda dumb to do that. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Steve, > > Interesting in that I just got a Radex heater to install in MOM so I > don't waste any of the engine heat when needed. Where in your cooling > system did you plumb it? > > Carl > > > steve wrote: > > > > > > One could take the same approach for boat heating as J-M on his 50' > > aluminum origami boat who lives in Shearwater, BC. He has two woodstoves > > and two diesel heaters ( drip carburetor , not forced air) aboard, along > > with a small hot-tub, heated by a stove. He's not fooling around : when > > he gets cold he wants to get warm. > > > > I've used a sigmar 120 diesel heater for 15 yrs with lots of fiddling, > > but general reliability. > > > > A friend in Comox has his Sigmar going all winter long , full-time and > > he's tied up in the marina living aboard. He could use shore-power but > > prefers the diesel heater. He also leaves it running unattended , which > > always has worried me a bit. > > > > Can't beat wood for heat in BC for economy. > > > > If I was going to get a new heater ,I would look at a very small wood > > heater AND a separate Refleks diesel heater (Norwegian). Stright-Mackay > > in Nova Scotia sell the Refleks units. They look beautiful , all shiny > > rounded stainless. > > > > I have just finished plumbing in a 'bus heater' using the engine coolant > > heat. Puts out heat after 5 minutes of engine running. This unit is > > distributed by Dickinson , a 'Radex'. > > > > Steve > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are all sorts of pluses and minuses of wood and oil heat. For > > extended cruising, I see the following problems with wood: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Wood will tend to absorb moisture quite readily, unless it is in a > > sealed plastic bag. Plastic bags full of chunks of wood do not stay > > sealed long. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Wood can go from 6% moisture to 20-30% moisture pretty easily -- > > when was the last time you found a diesel tank 15% full of water -- 15 > > liters in 100 liter tank? A liter maybe, after a long time. There are > > separators to separate oil and water (maybe not very good I do not know) > > but there is no moisture separator for wood. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) As wood absorbs more water, it burns more poorly and more dirty, > > causing more problems the longer you are away from "home". Certainly > > diesel is the same, but it seems to me, more slowly, and one already has > > to be a master of diesel anyway to have a motor -- now you have to be a > > master of wood as well, with perhaps no fixes readily available. > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) Wood is a natural product that comes from somewhere. When you go > > somewhere else, is there not the potential that they will complain you > > might be bringing in pests ? I sure would be concerned if a small boat > > loaded down with cheap Southeast Asian scrap wood (firewood) pulled into > > Vancouver harbour. We have enough problems right now with the > > long-horned bettle eating our hardwoods in Ontario. I can see a lot of > > places taking a very by-the-book approach to such dunnage. > > > > > > > > > That said, I like wood. If I were going away for only a week or two > > at a time, staying in the same general geographical area so importation > > were not an issue, then I would consider wood for heat. I would load > > freshly dried wood before every cruise, and off-load all unused wood at > > the end of the cruise back into the woodshed where I dry it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would make my wood-heat system not too integral to any boat, so I > > could easily replace it with a liquid fuel or compressed-gas-based heat > > system for extended cruising. > > > > > > > > > > > > Those planning an extended cruise and not wanting to use CNG, > > propane, or some liquid fuel, might consider charcoal. It has way less > > tars and creasote, is very light, goes in plastic bags well (which will > > float if submerged), dries easily in the sun, and is easy to make on > > land. One can also get charcoal in most places, and "importing" charcoal > > is unlikely to be as much trouble because it can't have pests. > > Low-volatiles coal will work in a charcoal stove too. One can make > > charcoal from most organic material. A stove capable of burning charcoal > > will even burn dry, long-dead wood without getting too gummed up. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the convenience of an energy-dense liquid fuel like diesel, > > that fits compactly in tanks, flows under gravity, is easily pumped, is > > much easier to thermostatically control... it is just too easy. And you > > pretty much have to have diesel onboard anyway for the engine. > > > > > > > > > > > > One might consider a heat system that runs on the same fuel as the > > cooking appliances, either CNG or propane if diesel heat is not desireable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > | 22726|22723|2010-03-04 14:49:47|brentswain38|Re: Main hatch|Mine is 19 inches wide a tight squeeze for my Isuzu. 22 would be better. Too wide and you can't lay it open as far. Make sure it fits whatever diesel you plan to use, or the biggest one you would ever use. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rooster" wrote: > > What is the hieght and width for a Brent style main hatch on the 40 footer. > > Thanks Jason > | 22727|22666|2010-03-04 15:01:34|brentswain38|Re: HEATING STOVE|A friend in Brentwood bay said he uses electric throw mats , like an electric blanket, but tougher , in his bunk. If one is motoring the last few miles into port, and has all the electricity he needs, he can plug it in for the last few miles and, at the end, crawl into a pre heated bunk. I plan to look into these. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > One could take the same approach for boat heating as J-M on his 50' aluminum origami boat who lives in Shearwater, BC. He has two woodstoves and two diesel heaters ( drip carburetor , not forced air) aboard, along with a small hot-tub, heated by a stove. He's not fooling around : when he gets cold he wants to get warm. > > I've used a sigmar 120 diesel heater for 15 yrs with lots of fiddling, but general reliability. > > A friend in Comox has his Sigmar going all winter long , full-time and he's tied up in the marina living aboard. He could use shore-power but prefers the diesel heater. He also leaves it running unattended , which always has worried me a bit. > > Can't beat wood for heat in BC for economy. > > If I was going to get a new heater ,I would look at a very small wood heater AND a separate Refleks diesel heater (Norwegian). Stright-Mackay in Nova Scotia sell the Refleks units. They look beautiful , all shiny rounded stainless. > > I have just finished plumbing in a 'bus heater' using the engine coolant heat. Puts out heat after 5 minutes of engine running. This unit is distributed by Dickinson , a 'Radex'. > > Steve > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Matt Malone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There are all sorts of pluses and minuses of wood and oil heat. For extended cruising, I see the following problems with wood: > > > > > > > > 1) Wood will tend to absorb moisture quite readily, unless it is in a sealed plastic bag. Plastic bags full of chunks of wood do not stay sealed long. > > > > > > > > 2) Wood can go from 6% moisture to 20-30% moisture pretty easily -- when was the last time you found a diesel tank 15% full of water -- 15 liters in 100 liter tank? A liter maybe, after a long time. There are separators to separate oil and water (maybe not very good I do not know) but there is no moisture separator for wood. > > > > > > > > 3) As wood absorbs more water, it burns more poorly and more dirty, causing more problems the longer you are away from "home". Certainly diesel is the same, but it seems to me, more slowly, and one already has to be a master of diesel anyway to have a motor -- now you have to be a master of wood as well, with perhaps no fixes readily available. > > > > > > > > 4) Wood is a natural product that comes from somewhere. When you go somewhere else, is there not the potential that they will complain you might be bringing in pests ? I sure would be concerned if a small boat loaded down with cheap Southeast Asian scrap wood (firewood) pulled into Vancouver harbour. We have enough problems right now with the long-horned bettle eating our hardwoods in Ontario. I can see a lot of places taking a very by-the-book approach to such dunnage. > > > > > > That said, I like wood. If I were going away for only a week or two at a time, staying in the same general geographical area so importation were not an issue, then I would consider wood for heat. I would load freshly dried wood before every cruise, and off-load all unused wood at the end of the cruise back into the woodshed where I dry it. > > > > > > > > I would make my wood-heat system not too integral to any boat, so I could easily replace it with a liquid fuel or compressed-gas-based heat system for extended cruising. > > > > > > > > Those planning an extended cruise and not wanting to use CNG, propane, or some liquid fuel, might consider charcoal. It has way less tars and creasote, is very light, goes in plastic bags well (which will float if submerged), dries easily in the sun, and is easy to make on land. One can also get charcoal in most places, and "importing" charcoal is unlikely to be as much trouble because it can't have pests. Low-volatiles coal will work in a charcoal stove too. One can make charcoal from most organic material. A stove capable of burning charcoal will even burn dry, long-dead wood without getting too gummed up. > > > > > > > > However, the convenience of an energy-dense liquid fuel like diesel, that fits compactly in tanks, flows under gravity, is easily pumped, is much easier to thermostatically control... it is just too easy. And you pretty much have to have diesel onboard anyway for the engine. > > > > > > > > One might consider a heat system that runs on the same fuel as the cooking appliances, either CNG or propane if diesel heat is not desireable. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22728|22723|2010-03-04 15:30:30|Paul Wilson|Tools Explained|Enjoy.......Cheers, Paul Tools Explained DRILL PRESS: A tall upright machine useful for suddenly snatching flat metal bar stock out of your hands so that it smacks you in the chest and flings your beer across the room, denting the freshly-painted project which you had carefully set in the corner where nothing could get to it. WIRE WHEEL: Cleans paint off bolts and then throws them somewhere under the workbench with the speed of light. Also removes fingerprints and hard-earned calluses from fingers in about the time it takes you to say, "Oh, shit!" SKILL SAW: A portable cutting tool used to make studs too short. PLIERS: Used to round off bolt heads. Sometimes used in the creation of blood-blisters. BELT SANDER: An electric sanding tool commonly used to convert minor touch-up jobs into major refinishing jobs. HACKSAW: One of a family of cutting tools built on the Ouija board principle... It transforms human energy into a crooked, unpredictable motion, and the more you attempt to influence its course, the more dismal your future becomes. VISE-GRIPS: Generally used after pliers to completely round off bolt heads. If nothing else is available, they can also be used to transfer intense welding heat to the palm of your hand. OXYACETYLENE TORCH: Used almost entirely for lighting various flammable objects in your shop on fire. Also handy for igniting the grease inside the wheel hub out of which you want to remove a bearing race.. TABLE SAW: A large stationary power tool commonly used to launch wood projectiles for testing wall integrity. HYDRAULIC FLOOR JACK: Used for lowering an automobile to the ground after you have installed your new brake shoes, trapping the jack handle firmly under the bumper. BAND SAW: A large stationary power saw primarily used by most shops to cut good aluminum sheet into smaller pieces that more easily fit into the trash can after you cut on the inside of the line instead of the outside edge. TWO-TON ENGINE HOIST: A tool for testing the maximum tensile strength of everything you forgot to disconnect. PHILLIPS SCREWDRIVER: Normally used to stab the vacuum seals under lids or for opening old-style paper-and-tin oil cans and splashing oil on your shirt; but can also be used, as the name implies, to strip out Phillips screw heads. STRAIGHT SCREWDRIVER: A tool for opening paint cans. Sometimes used to convert common slotted screws into non-removable screws and butchering your palms. PRY BAR: A tool used to crumple the metal surrounding that clip or bracket you needed to remove in order to replace a 50 cent part. HOSE CUTTER: A tool used to make hoses too short. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. UTILITY KNIFE: Used to open and slice through the contents of cardboard cartons delivered to your front door; works particularly well on contents such as seats, vinyl records, liquids in plastic bottles, collector magazines, refund checks, and rubber or plastic parts. Especially useful for slicing work clothes, but only while in use.. Son of a bitch TOOL: Any handy tool that you grab and throw across the garage while yelling "Son of a bitch" at the top of your lungs. It is also, most often, the next tool that you will need. > > | 22729|22666|2010-03-04 15:56:59|Aaron Williams|Re: HEATING STOVE|Brent When I put in my vent pipe for my oil heater I did make it so I can switch to the wood stove If ever needed. 12" pipe stove,If you cut 8" of lenth  then split that to 4" reweld that with the curve reversed you can gain a couple inches of hight and add a plate for a flat cooking heating surface. Aaron --- On Thu, 3/4/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: HEATING STOVE To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 4, 2010, 10:33 AM   Andy was talking about building a stainless wood stove to fit he same pipes and in the same place as the Sigmar, to stash ashore for when the price of fuel goes sky high. There is a piece of 12 inch stainless pipe in Royston I can help you build into such a stove, if you want. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "GP" wrote: > > Hi Brent... you mentioned someone adapting a wood stove to fit the Sigmar... anything more to that... > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I have an oil heater which burns with a clean blue flame , yet when I use it, I cough like hell. Doesn't happen with the wood stove. > > My Great Great Grandfather used wood heat all his life, played soccer on his 100th birthday and lived to 104. His son I met, when he was 100, and lived to 103 . He also used wood heat all his life. > > A lady who put a woodstove in her well insulated hull last year said she spent far more on heating oil than on engine fuel and oil in a year. Wood here is free , oil very expensive. Adds up over a winter. > > Reduces cruising time, which is what boats are for. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some say that diesel heaters smell, is it thrue? > > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > From: cwa@ > > > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:52:09 -0700 > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] HEATING STOVE > > > > > > > > Have a look at the diesel heaters from SIG Marine in BC. > > > > That is what we put in our boat. > > > > Works great. > > > > > > > > Carl > > > > sv-mom.com > > > > > > > > > > > > sitefix wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, > > > > > > > > > > I was reading through "Warm Dry Boat". > > > > > They talk about this great burner from Seattle. > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, I have an OPTIMUS Multi Fuel Camp Stove. Jet type burner. > > > > > I was wondering if anyone has tinkered around and made any diesel heaters? > > > > > Ok, I am not looking for any warnings about messing with explosive fire > > > > > hazards on board marine vessels. I am looking for maybe some possible > > > > > hook up ideas. I have never taken apart any diesel stoves / heaters, jet > > > > > burner or otherwise. if you know what a main chamber and radiators > > > > > options are, i would sure appreciate the info. > > > > > > > > > > If you have any ideas, let me know what you are thinking. > > > > > > > > > > Parr > > > > > > > > > > PS< gee, wow, I actually did an uphill vert with 5P today that really > > > > > looked great. It took a while to get the heat right, but wow, it seems > > > > > to be coming together. Couldn't believe it was me. I sez to meself, look > > > > > at dat, aint day preety, who did dat???? Ok, too much brie and vino. sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22730|22723|2010-03-04 16:10:46|rooster|Re: Main hatch|I was thinking 22 " wide for my watertanks to fit and engine is no problem; but how tall and how steep are your stairs/ladder for easy passage? Thanks Jason| 22731|22731|2010-03-04 22:02:09|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|40 ft swain cargo|HI Brent, I would like to know how much more cargo (pounds) can someone carry in your 40ft model? Thanks, Martin.| 22732|22723|2010-03-05 09:14:52|Ben Okopnik|Re: Tools Explained|On Fri, Mar 05, 2010 at 09:30:27AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > Enjoy.......Cheers, Paul > > Tools Explained I laughed so hard, my wife thought I was going to choke. Thanks a lot, Paul. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22733|22731|2010-03-05 16:43:34|wild_explorer|Re: 40 ft swain cargo|By my "guestimate" (and I am speculating here), BS40 has displacement about 10 tonnes. So, every inch of waterline's draft (from designed waterline painted on the hull) represents around 1,000-1,200 Lb of load. If your fully equipped boat's draft is 4in "below designed waterline" and you load it up to draft 4in "above waterline" you loaded 8,000-8600 Lb of cargo. Of cause, you probably can load it almost up to a draft close to sheer line ;)) Brent should have more precise information. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > I would like to know how much more cargo (pounds) can someone carry in your 40ft model? > | 22734|22723|2010-03-05 17:43:43|martin|Tools Explained|Here's one more for the toolbox. Chisels and punchs: Accessory used in conjunction with hammers to help line up fingers for a good solid connection. Quite often transformed into the son of a bitch category. Martin| 22735|22731|2010-03-05 21:45:18|theboilerflue|Re: 40 ft swain cargo|I would guess higher my 36' when I launch weighed 20000lbs with no water, only 15 gal of fuel and very little gear. I made a post with a list of guesstimated weight somewhere.... post 20835 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > By my "guestimate" (and I am speculating here), BS40 has displacement about 10 tonnes. So, every inch of waterline's draft (from designed waterline painted on the hull) represents around 1,000-1,200 Lb of load. If your fully equipped boat's draft is 4in "below designed waterline" and you load it up to draft 4in "above waterline" you loaded 8,000-8600 Lb of cargo. Of cause, you probably can load it almost up to a draft close to sheer line ;)) > > Brent should have more precise information. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > I would like to know how much more cargo (pounds) can someone carry in your 40ft model? > > > | 22736|22731|2010-03-06 01:05:11|wild_explorer|Re: 40 ft swain cargo|Did you figure out what was that 4,000Lb "extra weight" you got? You did not need ballast at this case. Keel's could be used as water tanks ;). This brings another interesting subject - careful project planing. Weight of equipped boat (with fuel and water) should be a little bit less than boat's displacement. It is critical to know the weight of all parts and materials used to build the boat. Some of the items might not look important for weight calculation, but it all add up to total weigh. I did not even consider that primed plates (and other misc parts on the list will weight more). So, what need to take to an account for weight calculation? - All materials on the list for BS40(with weight of primer) - Weight of electrodes for welding of the hull (cabin, pilothouse, mast support) - Pre-built parts (including keels, skeg, rudder - could be already included in material list), plates for floor and tanks, hatches. - engine, cooling fittings, coolant/water, day-tank (with fuel) and fittings. - Wood strips for interior installation, windows, ventilation - Weight of insulation foam - All Interior structures, furniture & appliances - Electrical conduits and wiring - Handrails, ladders, stairs - Mast, rigging, sails - Fuel & water in the tanks - Personal misc items - People on board - Food supplies (wood for the wood stove or propane). All this need to know for total boat weight estimate & proper hull balancing. Please, add what else need to count if I missed something. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I would guess higher my 36' when I launch weighed 20000lbs with no water, only 15 gal of fuel and very little gear. I made a post with a list of guesstimated weight somewhere.... post 20835 > | 22737|22737|2010-03-06 07:15:48|Bob Wills|foam and primer|I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to the inside of a hull.  The questions I have are. Do you need to prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in the builge ?   Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues.   Thanks  Bufalowbob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22738|22731|2010-03-06 09:00:06|maxcamirand|Re: 40 ft swain cargo|That is completely ridiculous. You don't need to calculate the precise weight of everything. A design will sail well between X and Y displacement, and progressively less well outside of that. All you need to know is that if you don't do anything stupid (like double all the scantlings), and generally follow accepted practice, the boat will end up floating somewhere close to its design marks (hopefully a few inches higher) when you launch it lightship. Then you add all the stuff you wanna carry around, not giving yourself a stomach ulcer wondering if you should buy a stainless steel pressure cooker or a lighter aluminium model. The boat will sink near to its designed waterline, which is an ARBITRARY line. If it's high or deep, you can just repaint the waterline the next time you haul her out. As long as you're roughly between the displacements X and Y that the boat likes, there's no trouble at all. Once you're sailing around, you might change the distribution of weight on-board, like moving the 10 cases of beer out of the forepeak, to change her behaviour at sea. Regards, -Maxime --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Did you figure out what was that 4,000Lb "extra weight" you got? You did not need ballast at this case. Keel's could be used as water tanks ;). > > This brings another interesting subject - careful project planing. Weight of equipped boat (with fuel and water) should be a little bit less than boat's displacement. It is critical to know the weight of all parts and materials used to build the boat. Some of the items might not look important for weight calculation, but it all add up to total weigh. > > I did not even consider that primed plates (and other misc parts on the list will weight more). > > So, what need to take to an account for weight calculation? > > - All materials on the list for BS40(with weight of primer) > - Weight of electrodes for welding of the hull (cabin, pilothouse, mast support) > - Pre-built parts (including keels, skeg, rudder - could be already included in material list), plates for floor and tanks, hatches. > - engine, cooling fittings, coolant/water, day-tank (with fuel) and fittings. > - Wood strips for interior installation, windows, ventilation > - Weight of insulation foam > - All Interior structures, furniture & appliances > - Electrical conduits and wiring > - Handrails, ladders, stairs > - Mast, rigging, sails > - Fuel & water in the tanks > - Personal misc items > - People on board > - Food supplies (wood for the wood stove or propane). > > All this need to know for total boat weight estimate & proper hull balancing. > > Please, add what else need to count if I missed something. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > I would guess higher my 36' when I launch weighed 20000lbs with no water, only 15 gal of fuel and very little gear. I made a post with a list of guesstimated weight somewhere.... post 20835 > > > | 22739|22731|2010-03-06 11:22:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: 40 ft swain cargo|On Sat, Mar 06, 2010 at 01:59:44PM -0000, maxcamirand wrote: > You don't need to calculate the precise weight of everything. A design > will sail well between X and Y displacement, and progressively less > well outside of that. True enough. All of those calculations go out the window when you're running low on water, or when you stop by, e.g., Puerto Plata in the Dominican Republic (lots of cheap food) and load up with a thousand pounds of food. Most cruisers end up moving their waterline up after cruising for a while for this reason... -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22740|22731|2010-03-06 11:28:27|James Pronk|Re: 40 ft swain cargo|Very well put Maxime. My Catalina 27 floated 130 mm (5inchs) higher in the water for the first few weeks of the year till I started to load all the gear into it to stay over night. I had great light air performance! Still I was floating 100 mm (4inchs) higher then a couple I met that were on there second time around doing the great circle route. There boat sailed well when we sailed in company. James __________________________________________________________________ Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22741|22737|2010-03-06 13:02:59|Gord Schnell|Re: foam and primer|I'm not aware of guidelines for foaming the Brent Swain designs. I have foamed my 40'. After all the ports, hatches, piping, wiring, plumbing, access ports and attachment points are in; I hired a truck- mounted foamer to spray the entire interior with a rigid foam to a depth of 3". Then I spent 3 weeks trimming it all flush to accomodate the interior "skin" (red oak plywood (1/8"). Keep in mind that it is nearly impossible to add any piping, wiring or attachment points once the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. Gord On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > the builge ? > > Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used > in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that > have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > > Thanks Bufalowbob > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22742|22737|2010-03-06 13:05:07|James Pronk|Re: foam and primer|Hello Gord Did you prime and paint the bare metal first? --- On Sat, 3/6/10, Gord Schnell wrote: From: Gord Schnell Subject: Re: [origamiboats] foam and primer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 1:02 PM I'm not aware of guidelines for foaming the Brent Swain designs. I  have foamed my 40'. After all the ports, hatches, piping, wiring,  plumbing, access ports and attachment points  are in; I hired a truck- mounted foamer to spray the entire interior with a rigid foam to a  depth of 3". Then I spent 3 weeks trimming it all flush to accomodate  the interior "skin" (red oak plywood (1/8"). Keep in mind that it is  nearly impossible to  add any piping, wiring or attachment points once  the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. Gord On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to  > the inside of a hull.  The questions I have are. Do you need to  > prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you  > foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in  > the builge ? > > Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used  > in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that  > have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > > Thanks  Bufalowbob > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22743|22737|2010-03-06 13:07:03|Gord Schnell|Re: foam and primer|I was considering using the "truck box-liner" paint on my decks as a "traction" coating. Has anyone tried that?? Gord On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > the builge ? > > Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used > in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that > have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > > Thanks Bufalowbob > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22744|22737|2010-03-06 13:15:44|Gord Schnell|Re: foam and primer|Incidentally, it is recommended that you purchase the "fire retardant" foam for interior use. That is what I used and when the foam-trimming was complete, I then sprayed the entire interior with fire-retardant paint. Testing the foam combustability, with a torch, reveled that it does not support flame but it does smoke. Gord On 6-Mar-10, at 10:02 AM, Gord Schnell wrote: > I'm not aware of guidelines for foaming the Brent Swain designs. I > have foamed my 40'. After all the ports, hatches, piping, wiring, > plumbing, access ports and attachment points are in; I hired a truck- > mounted foamer to spray the entire interior with a rigid foam to a > depth of 3". Then I spent 3 weeks trimming it all flush to accomodate > the interior "skin" (red oak plywood (1/8"). Keep in mind that it is > nearly impossible to add any piping, wiring or attachment points once > the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. > Gord > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > >> I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to >> the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to >> prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you >> foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in >> the builge ? >> >> Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used >> in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that >> have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. >> >> Thanks Bufalowbob >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22745|22737|2010-03-06 13:19:34|Gord Schnell|Re: foam and primer|James Yes, I sandblasted and painted the hull inside and outside before foaming. I'm not sure whether it is essential to paint the interior, before foaming, but I was concerned the foam might absorb moisture and allow a slow rusting process to begin, under the foam, and out of sight. Gord On 6-Mar-10, at 10:05 AM, James Pronk wrote: > Hello Gord > Did you prime and paint the bare metal first? > > --- On Sat, 3/6/10, Gord Schnell wrote: > > From: Gord Schnell > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] foam and primer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 1:02 PM > > I'm not aware of guidelines for foaming the Brent Swain designs. I > have foamed my 40'. After all the ports, hatches, piping, wiring, > plumbing, access ports and attachment points are in; I hired a truck- > mounted foamer to spray the entire interior with a rigid foam to a > depth of 3". Then I spent 3 weeks trimming it all flush to accomodate > the interior "skin" (red oak plywood (1/8"). Keep in mind that it is > nearly impossible to add any piping, wiring or attachment points once > the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. > Gord > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > > > I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > > the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > > prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > > foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > > the builge ? > > > > Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used > > in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that > > have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > > > > Thanks Bufalowbob > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > __________________________________________________________ > Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet > Explorer� 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22746|22737|2010-03-06 13:39:37|James Pronk|Re: foam and primer|I think in Brents book he talks about boats rusting from the inside out that were not primed and painted inside before foaming. James --- On Sat, 3/6/10, Gord Schnell wrote: From: Gord Schnell Subject: Re: [origamiboats] foam and primer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 1:19 PM James Yes, I sandblasted and painted the hull inside and outside before  foaming. I'm not sure whether it is essential to paint the interior,  before foaming, but I was concerned the foam might absorb moisture and  allow a slow rusting process to begin, under the foam, and out of sight. Gord On 6-Mar-10, at 10:05 AM, James Pronk wrote: > Hello Gord > Did you prime and paint the bare metal first? > > --- On Sat, 3/6/10, Gord Schnell wrote: > > From: Gord Schnell > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] foam and primer > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 1:02 PM > > I'm not aware of guidelines for foaming the Brent Swain designs. I > have foamed my 40'. After all the ports, hatches, piping, wiring, > plumbing, access ports and attachment points  are in; I hired a truck- > mounted foamer to spray the entire interior with a rigid foam to a > depth of 3". Then I spent 3 weeks trimming it all flush to accomodate > the interior "skin" (red oak plywood (1/8"). Keep in mind that it is > nearly impossible to  add any piping, wiring or attachment points once > the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. > Gord > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > > > I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > > the inside of a hull.  The questions I have are. Do you need to > > prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > > foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > > the builge ? > > > > Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used > > in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that > > have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > > > > Thanks  Bufalowbob > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > __________________________________________________________ > Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet  > Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________________________ Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22747|22731|2010-03-06 14:19:46|James Pronk|Re: 40 ft swain cargo|Could you amagine, "Sorry honey you can't come sailing because..."  or   "All that clothing is going to put use over weight, you can only ware this tiny bikinni or nothing!" James --- On Sat, 3/6/10, maxcamirand wrote: From: maxcamirand Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 40 ft swain cargo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 8:59 AM   That is completely ridiculous. You don't need to calculate the precise weight of everything. A design will sail well between X and Y displacement, and progressively less well outside of that. All you need to know is that if you don't do anything stupid (like double all the scantlings), and generally follow accepted practice, the boat will end up floating somewhere close to its design marks (hopefully a few inches higher) when you launch it lightship. Then you add all the stuff you wanna carry around, not giving yourself a stomach ulcer wondering if you should buy a stainless steel pressure cooker or a lighter aluminium model. The boat will sink near to its designed waterline, which is an ARBITRARY line. If it's high or deep, you can just repaint the waterline the next time you haul her out. As long as you're roughly between the displacements X and Y that the boat likes, there's no trouble at all. Once you're sailing around, you might change the distribution of weight on-board, like moving the 10 cases of beer out of the forepeak, to change her behaviour at sea. Regards, -Maxime --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Did you figure out what was that 4,000Lb "extra weight" you got? You did not need ballast at this case. Keel's could be used as water tanks ;). > > This brings another interesting subject - careful project planing. Weight of equipped boat (with fuel and water) should be a little bit less than boat's displacement. It is critical to know the weight of all parts and materials used to build the boat. Some of the items might not look important for weight calculation, but it all add up to total weigh. > > I did not even consider that primed plates (and other misc parts on the list will weight more). > > So, what need to take to an account for weight calculation? > > - All materials on the list for BS40(with weight of primer) > - Weight of electrodes for welding of the hull (cabin, pilothouse, mast support) > - Pre-built parts (including keels, skeg, rudder - could be already included in material list), plates for floor and tanks, hatches. > - engine, cooling fittings, coolant/water, day-tank (with fuel) and fittings. > - Wood strips for interior installation, windows, ventilation > - Weight of insulation foam > - All Interior structures, furniture & appliances > - Electrical conduits and wiring > - Handrails, ladders, stairs > - Mast, rigging, sails > - Fuel & water in the tanks > - Personal misc items > - People on board > - Food supplies (wood for the wood stove or propane). > > All this need to know for total boat weight estimate & proper hull balancing. > > Please, add what else need to count if I missed something. > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > I would guess higher my 36' when I launch weighed 20000lbs with no water, only 15 gal of fuel and very little gear. I made a post with a list of guesstimated weight somewhere... . post 20835 > > > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22748|22737|2010-03-06 14:35:34|jfisher@wildblue.net|Re: foam and primer|Probably will work well. Realize it does not stick to bare steel. Needs a coat of paint under it to act as a primer. John Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Gord Schnell Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 10:06:55 To: Subject: Re: [origamiboats] foam and primer I was considering using the "truck box-liner" paint on my decks as a "traction" coating. Has anyone tried that?? Gord On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > the builge ? > > Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used > in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that > have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > > Thanks Bufalowbob > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links | 22749|22737|2010-03-06 15:09:49|Ben Okopnik|Re: foam and primer|On Sat, Mar 06, 2010 at 10:05:03AM -0800, James Pronk wrote: > --- On Sat, 3/6/10, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Keep in mind that it is  > nearly impossible to  add any piping, wiring or attachment points once  > the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. Better yet, don't bury the stuff in the first place - run channels for it, instead (PVC pipe is cheap and strong.) That way, if a wire ever burns out or a hose ever breaks, you won't have to destroy the entire interior to get to it. Horror story about the wrong way to run wire: when I was in Boqueron, PR, I was called in to fix an electrical problem on a Gemini catamaran. I discovered that whoever did their AC wiring had made the distribution point by simply tying all the related wires together into a knot (hot to hot, neutral to neutral, etc.), then clumped it all together with electrical tape into a knot the size of my fist - and left it all laying below the sole, up against the hull. Did I mention it was _all_ brown lamp cord? High class wiring job, that was - from an "electrician" they'd hired on the docks in Miami. The electrical tape had (unsurprisingly) chafed through, the wires shorted and caught fire... which the owners hadn't realized. Fortunately for them, it went out instead of catching their hull on fire, too - but it did leave a badly-charred spot about 8" across, with the fiberglass around the center of the burn looking all crazed and cracked. If they had gotten into any really bad weather and started pounding, I can just about guarantee that that part of the hull would have caved in. When I showed it to them, they just about had kittens. Breech presentation. That ended up being a pretty big rewiring job. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22750|22737|2010-03-06 15:31:18|theboilerflue|Re: foam and primer|My hull was sandblasted inside and out then several coats of zinc rich primer and coal tar urethane (moisture cured Wasser) one layer mixed with ceramic micro spheres for added insulation. I think it's really important to properly protect the steel everywhere on the boat with a good many coats of paint. I'm sure everyone remembers that painfully rusty boat at http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/rust.html I was quite pleased with the wiring conduits had put in prior to foaming they were that cheap black poly irrigation hose you can get at the hardware store for about 10 cents a foot although I wish I had been more careful to avoid sharp bends as it makes fishing the wires through a little more difficult than it need to be. I also put a piece of pvc up through my mast which has worked pretty well, I welded a 1/2 SS pipe into the mast fitting top and bottom and when I attached them to the mast I sikaflexed the pvc pipe on to them, the pvc was a bit longer than the mast so when I pushed the fittings on it snaked along a bit through the mast, and it doesn't bang around inside the mast, totally quiet. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 06, 2010 at 10:05:03AM -0800, James Pronk wrote: > > --- On Sat, 3/6/10, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > Keep in mind that it is  > > nearly impossible to  add any piping, wiring or attachment points once  > > the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. > > Better yet, don't bury the stuff in the first place - run channels for > it, instead (PVC pipe is cheap and strong.) That way, if a wire ever > burns out or a hose ever breaks, you won't have to destroy the entire > interior to get to it. > > Horror story about the wrong way to run wire: when I was in Boqueron, > PR, I was called in to fix an electrical problem on a Gemini catamaran. > I discovered that whoever did their AC wiring had made the distribution > point by simply tying all the related wires together into a knot (hot to > hot, neutral to neutral, etc.), then clumped it all together with > electrical tape into a knot the size of my fist - and left it all laying > below the sole, up against the hull. Did I mention it was _all_ brown > lamp cord? High class wiring job, that was - from an "electrician" > they'd hired on the docks in Miami. > > The electrical tape had (unsurprisingly) chafed through, the wires > shorted and caught fire... which the owners hadn't realized. > Fortunately for them, it went out instead of catching their hull on > fire, too - but it did leave a badly-charred spot about 8" across, with > the fiberglass around the center of the burn looking all crazed and > cracked. If they had gotten into any really bad weather and started > pounding, I can just about guarantee that that part of the hull would > have caved in. > > When I showed it to them, they just about had kittens. Breech > presentation. That ended up being a pretty big rewiring job. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22751|22731|2010-03-06 16:20:36|wild_explorer|Re: 40 ft swain cargo|Exactly my point. Why do you need to put "extra" lead ballast if you have estimated MOST of the gear which will be on your boat? Just put as much ballast as needed to keep draft 4-5in below waterline. Paint 4-5in down strip from designed waterline in one color, and 4-5in above in other color. At least you will have very good reference about your boat load and no need to repaint waterline. And waterline is not just line you paint "for the look", that why cargo ships carry ballast if no cargo on board. P.S. It is more important for DIY boats than for production boats (where most things taken into account). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > My Catalina 27 floated 130 mm (5inchs) higher in the water for the first few weeks of the year till I started to load all the gear into it to stay over night. I had great light air performance! Still I was floating 100 mm (4inchs) higher then a couple I met that were on there second time around doing the great circle route. There boat sailed well when we sailed in company. > James | 22752|22737|2010-03-06 17:49:54|brentswain38|Re: foam and primer|Lots of epoxy under the foam is essential. Foam absorbs water like a sponge, if given enough time. Hulls rusting out beneath foam,due to lack of paint is all too common. Foam is no protection. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jfisher@... wrote: > > Probably will work well. Realize it does not stick to bare steel. Needs a coat of paint under it to act as a primer. > > John > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gord Schnell > Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 10:06:55 > To: > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] foam and primer > > I was considering using the "truck box-liner" paint on my decks as a > "traction" coating. Has anyone tried that?? > Gord > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > > > I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > > the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > > prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > > foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > > the builge ? > > > > Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used > > in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that > > have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > > > > Thanks Bufalowbob > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > | 22753|22731|2010-03-06 17:54:53|brentswain38|Re: 40 ft swain cargo|It takes roughly 1500 lbs to put the 40 down an inch in the water. Shinola was grossly overloaded , yet continued to outsail a 35 ft Beneteau, with no problems, on any point of sail. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > HI Brent, > > I would like to know how much more cargo (pounds) can someone carry in your 40ft model? > > Thanks, Martin. > | 22754|22737|2010-03-06 18:06:45|brentswain38|Re: foam and primer|When you foam ,don't let the foamer leave, until you are sure he didn't miss any spots. A spot of bare steel the size of your fingernail will drip like a faucet, if you dont have a half inch of foam over it. On my last boat,I made the mistake of triming the foam flush with the deck beams and stringers. On a cold night, I could see the frost pattern on the beams and stringers, and the condensation on them made black marks on the paneling. Leave at least a half inch of foam over every bit of steel. It may look good at first, but after the foamer leaves, its common to find all kinds of spots he missed. Spraycan foam works for touchup, but is far more water absorbent than sprayfoam out of the gun. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Lots of epoxy under the foam is essential. Foam absorbs water like a sponge, if given enough time. Hulls rusting out beneath foam,due to lack of paint is all too common. Foam is no protection. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jfisher@ wrote: > > > > Probably will work well. Realize it does not stick to bare steel. Needs a coat of paint under it to act as a primer. > > > > John > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gord Schnell > > Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 10:06:55 > > To: > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] foam and primer > > > > I was considering using the "truck box-liner" paint on my decks as a > > "traction" coating. Has anyone tried that?? > > Gord > > > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > > > > > I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > > > the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > > > prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > > > foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > > > the builge ? > > > > > > Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used > > > in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that > > > have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > > > > > > Thanks Bufalowbob > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > | 22755|22737|2010-03-06 19:29:52|David Frantz|Re: foam and primer|Ate you talking about the professionally installed sprayed on bed liners? The ones I'm thinking of are a black urethane. They are "sticky" as opposed to the slippery plastic liners. To your question no I haven't tried it, I don't even have a boat yet. On exterior surfaces though I'd be affraid that the material would get way to hot. I've thought that it would be great for interiors. The slip resistance would be very helpful. I also wonder if foam insulation would bond to it. Ot would seem to be worth looking into. Somebody has all ready tried it i suspect, it's just a manner of finding him. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 6, 2010, at 1:06 PM, Gord Schnell wrote: > I was considering using the "truck box-liner" paint on my decks as a > "traction" coating. Has anyone tried that?? > Gord > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > >> I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to >> the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to >> prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you >> foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in >> the builge ? >> >> Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used >> in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that >> have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. >> >> Thanks Bufalowbob >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22756|22737|2010-03-06 22:51:27|Gord Schnell|Re: foam and primer|I ran ALL my AC and DC wiring in plastic conduit, complete with access covers etc. (before foaming) and all water and other fluid lines, as well, in PVC. Remarkably, I haven't run across any omissions yet, with the exception of a "return to tank" fuel line from the diesel injection pump, which is contained to the engine compartment....no foam insulation there. Gord On 6-Mar-10, at 12:09 PM, Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, Mar 06, 2010 at 10:05:03AM -0800, James Pronk wrote: >> --- On Sat, 3/6/10, Gord Schnell wrote: >> >> Keep in mind that it is >> nearly impossible to add any piping, wiring or attachment points >> once >> the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. > > Better yet, don't bury the stuff in the first place - run channels for > it, instead (PVC pipe is cheap and strong.) That way, if a wire ever > burns out or a hose ever breaks, you won't have to destroy the entire > interior to get to it. > > Horror story about the wrong way to run wire: when I was in Boqueron, > PR, I was called in to fix an electrical problem on a Gemini > catamaran. > I discovered that whoever did their AC wiring had made the > distribution > point by simply tying all the related wires together into a knot > (hot to > hot, neutral to neutral, etc.), then clumped it all together with > electrical tape into a knot the size of my fist - and left it all > laying > below the sole, up against the hull. Did I mention it was _all_ brown > lamp cord? High class wiring job, that was - from an "electrician" > they'd hired on the docks in Miami. > > The electrical tape had (unsurprisingly) chafed through, the wires > shorted and caught fire... which the owners hadn't realized. > Fortunately for them, it went out instead of catching their hull on > fire, too - but it did leave a badly-charred spot about 8" across, > with > the fiberglass around the center of the burn looking all crazed and > cracked. If they had gotten into any really bad weather and started > pounding, I can just about guarantee that that part of the hull would > have caved in. > > When I showed it to them, they just about had kittens. Breech > presentation. That ended up being a pretty big rewiring job. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22757|22737|2010-03-06 23:06:58|Gord Schnell|Re: foam and primer|I believe that the spray-on bedliner is available in most of the basic colors now...including white, which would be ideal in the tropical sun. Gord On 6-Mar-10, at 1:29 PM, David Frantz wrote: > Ate you talking about the professionally installed sprayed on bed > liners? The ones I'm thinking of are a black urethane. They are > "sticky" as opposed to the slippery plastic liners. > > To your question no I haven't tried it, I don't even have a boat > yet. On exterior surfaces though I'd be affraid that the material > would get way to hot. I've thought that it would be great for > interiors. The slip resistance would be very helpful. I also > wonder if foam insulation would bond to it. > > Ot would seem to be worth looking into. Somebody has all ready tried > it i suspect, it's just a manner of finding him. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Mar 6, 2010, at 1:06 PM, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > I was considering using the "truck box-liner" paint on my decks as a > > "traction" coating. Has anyone tried that?? > > Gord > > > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > > > >> I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > >> the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > >> prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > >> foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > >> the builge ? > >> > >> Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam > used > >> in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds > that > >> have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > >> > >> Thanks Bufalowbob > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22758|22737|2010-03-07 01:21:38|ric|Re: foam and primer|Be aware that running cables in conduits down grades the rating of the cable one level. Here in Australia that means 15 amp cable becomes 10, as the heat can not dissipate. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > I ran ALL my AC and DC wiring in plastic conduit, complete with access > covers etc. > Gord > > > > > > | 22759|22759|2010-03-07 08:21:14|kimdxx|Starting a 26-footer!|Hello all ... I'm ready to start building a Brent Swain 26 in Brisbane, Australia. The only thing stopping me starting immediately is that I'm having some trouble finding a suitable (ie: low rent!) building site. Mine is a weekend-only project, so the time frame might spread out a bit. If there is anyone from Brisbane reading this who might be able to help, or offer any suggestions, I would be most grateful if you would contact me. Any other Swain builders in Brisbane? Sincerely ... Kim. kimdxx at yahoo dot com dot au ______________________________| 22760|22737|2010-03-07 08:47:06|David Frantz|Re: foam and primer|That would be very nice indeed. It brings ideas to mind beyound usage on a boat. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 6, 2010, at 11:06 PM, Gord Schnell wrote: > I believe that the spray-on bedliner is available in most of the basic > colors now...including white, which would be ideal in the tropical > sun. > Gord > On 6-Mar-10, at 1:29 PM, David Frantz wrote: > >> Ate you talking about the professionally installed sprayed on bed >> liners? The ones I'm thinking of are a black urethane. They are >> "sticky" as opposed to the slippery plastic liners. >> >> To your question no I haven't tried it, I don't even have a boat >> yet. On exterior surfaces though I'd be affraid that the material >> would get way to hot. I've thought that it would be great for >> interiors. The slip resistance would be very helpful. I also >> wonder if foam insulation would bond to it. >> >> Ot would seem to be worth looking into. Somebody has all ready tried >> it i suspect, it's just a manner of finding him. >> >> David A Frantz >> >> websterindustro@... >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> On Mar 6, 2010, at 1:06 PM, Gord Schnell wrote: >> >>> I was considering using the "truck box-liner" paint on my decks as a >>> "traction" coating. Has anyone tried that?? >>> Gord >>> >>> On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: >>> >>>> I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to >>>> the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to >>>> prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you >>>> foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in >>>> the builge ? >>>> >>>> Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam >> used >>>> in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds >> that >>>> have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. >>>> >>>> Thanks Bufalowbob >>>> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo >>> ! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22761|22737|2010-03-07 08:52:31|David Frantz|Re: foam and primer|Here in the US we have the NEC, the National Electric Code, for structures on land. For boats though I believe there is a different standard. At least when it comes to color codes. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 7, 2010, at 1:21 AM, ric wrote: > > Be aware that running cables in conduits down grades the rating of > the cable one level. Here in Australia that means 15 amp cable > becomes 10, as the heat can not dissipate. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell > wrote: >> >> I ran ALL my AC and DC wiring in plastic conduit, complete with >> access >> covers etc. >> Gord >> >>> >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22762|22737|2010-03-07 10:44:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: foam and primer|On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 08:52:13AM -0500, David Frantz wrote: > Here in the US we have the NEC, the National Electric Code, for > structures on land. For boats though I believe there is a different > standard. At least when it comes to color codes. > > > Be aware that running cables in conduits down grades the rating of > > the cable one level. Here in Australia that means 15 amp cable > > becomes 10, as the heat can not dissipate. Since heat wouldn't dissipate in a wire that's buried in foam either, isn't this a moot point? In any case, I'm a big fan of using wire that's at least one, and preferably two sizes over the nominal (and I always estimate that pretty generously in the first place, anyway.) Given contact corrosion, wear, heat issues, etc. - plus the fact that you *really* don't want to replace an entire wire run if you decide to add a couple of lights later on - I consider it a big mistake to leave yourself no headroom. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22763|22763|2010-03-07 13:10:12|SHANE ROTHWELL|40 ft Swain Cargo|James, watch it man, your going to blow the whole system right out of the water and ruin it for a lot of guys! Great while it lasted though! Re: 40 ft swain cargo Posted by: "James Pronk" jpronk1@... jpronk1 Sat Mar 6, 2010 11:19 am (PST) Could you amagine, "Sorry honey you can't come sailing because..." or "All that clothing is going to put use over weight, you can only ware this tiny bikinni or nothing!" James __________________________________________________________________ Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/| 22764|22737|2010-03-07 13:26:30|theboilerflue|Re: foam and primer|When I set my boat on fire, while I was filling gaps with a can of spray foam. The fresh stuff from the can while it was still curing burned really well but the other stuff, the the foam that had been sprayed in the day before really didn't burn, it melted but the fire certainly didn't spread past the fresh stuff. I didn't specify fire retardant foam I think it was poly-iso-cyanide or something like that. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Incidentally, it is recommended that you purchase the "fire retardant" > foam for interior use. That is what I used and when the foam-trimming > was complete, I then sprayed the entire interior with fire-retardant > paint. Testing the foam combustability, with a torch, reveled that it > does not support flame but it does smoke. > Gord > On 6-Mar-10, at 10:02 AM, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > I'm not aware of guidelines for foaming the Brent Swain designs. I > > have foamed my 40'. After all the ports, hatches, piping, wiring, > > plumbing, access ports and attachment points are in; I hired a truck- > > mounted foamer to spray the entire interior with a rigid foam to a > > depth of 3". Then I spent 3 weeks trimming it all flush to accomodate > > the interior "skin" (red oak plywood (1/8"). Keep in mind that it is > > nearly impossible to add any piping, wiring or attachment points once > > the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. > > Gord > > > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > > > >> I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > >> the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > >> prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > >> foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > >> the builge ? > >> > >> Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used > >> in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that > >> have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > >> > >> Thanks Bufalowbob > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 22765|22737|2010-03-07 14:10:06|Darren Bos|Re: foam and primer|Be careful if you test polyurethane foam for combustibility, the smoke is extremely toxic. I've been looking into foam and insulation. While it looks like sprayed urethane has some advantages, it is worth being aware of two major drawbacks. First, the smoke from it is very toxic (hydrogen cyanide amongst other compounds), so you might have to get away from the ship in case of a fire just to avoid death from limited smoke exposure. Second, it looks like even the fire retardent forms will burn. The link below provides an example that isn't all that different from a boat. I would be paranoid that all wiring run near urethane foam was done perfectly with appropriate insulation and fusing. Ethafoam looks like an alternative that would generate less toxic smoke, although it has to be glued in as sheets. http://static.monolithic.com/foam/fire_hazard/index.html Darren At 10:15 AM 06/03/2010, you wrote: > > >Incidentally, it is recommended that you purchase the "fire retardant" >foam for interior use. That is what I used and when the foam-trimming >was complete, I then sprayed the entire interior with fire-retardant >paint. Testing the foam combustability, with a torch, reveled that it >does not support flame but it does smoke. >Gord >On 6-Mar-10, at 10:02 AM, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > I'm not aware of guidelines for foaming the Brent Swain designs. I > > have foamed my 40'. After all the ports, hatches, piping, wiring, > > plumbing, access ports and attachment points are in; I hired a truck- > > mounted foamer to spray the entire interior with a rigid foam to a > > depth of 3". Then I spent 3 weeks trimming it all flush to accomodate > > the interior "skin" (red oak plywood (1/8"). Keep in mind that it is > > nearly impossible to add any piping, wiring or attachment points once > > the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. > > Gord > > > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > > > >> I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > >> the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > >> prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > >> foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > >> the builge ? > >> > >> Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used > >> in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that > >> have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > >> > >> Thanks Bufalowbob > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22766|22731|2010-03-07 16:49:05|Paul Wilson|Re: 40 ft swain cargo|I have never heard the concept of varying the amount of ballast to get to a desired water-line. I thought the amount of ballast was chosen for stability. This would apply for cargo ships and yachts, whether they were home built or not. Paul P.S.Apologies to all if I am feeding a troll, but I am a trusting soul. wild_explorer wrote: > > > Exactly my point. Why do you need to put "extra" lead ballast if you > have estimated MOST of the gear which will be on your boat? Just put > as much ballast as needed to keep draft 4-5in below waterline. Paint > 4-5in down strip from designed waterline in one color, and 4-5in above > in other color. At least you will have very good reference about your > boat load and no need to repaint waterline. And waterline is not just > line you paint "for the look", that why cargo ships carry ballast if > no cargo on board. > > P.S. It is more important for DIY boats than for production boats > (where most things taken into account). > > > | 22767|22737|2010-03-07 18:30:09|cumorglas|Re: foam and primer|I have used two part urethane bedliner as the paint for my jeeps for some years now. it is incredibly tough stuff, and if you do proper prep it lasts through many winters of salt slush and summers of rocks and mud. BUT i have to say i wouldn't recommend it without some caveats. prep matters!! if you miss a little spot it fails in a big chunk. it is rough stuff. on bare feet and bare skin it is very abrasive. it gets squishy and even more grabby in the summer sun in western new york. i can't imagine in the tropics. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > I believe that the spray-on bedliner is available in most of the basic > colors now...including white, which would be ideal in the tropical sun. > Gord > On 6-Mar-10, at 1:29 PM, David Frantz wrote: > > > Ate you talking about the professionally installed sprayed on bed > > liners? The ones I'm thinking of are a black urethane. They are > > "sticky" as opposed to the slippery plastic liners. > > > > To your question no I haven't tried it, I don't even have a boat > > yet. On exterior surfaces though I'd be affraid that the material > > would get way to hot. I've thought that it would be great for > > interiors. The slip resistance would be very helpful. I also > > wonder if foam insulation would bond to it. > > > > Ot would seem to be worth looking into. Somebody has all ready tried > > it i suspect, it's just a manner of finding him. > > > > David A Frantz > > > > websterindustro@... > > Sent from my iPhone. > > > > On Mar 6, 2010, at 1:06 PM, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > > I was considering using the "truck box-liner" paint on my decks as a > > > "traction" coating. Has anyone tried that?? > > > Gord > > > > > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > > > > > >> I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > > >> the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > > >> prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > > >> foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > > >> the builge ? > > >> > > >> Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam > > used > > >> in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds > > that > > >> have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > > >> > > >> Thanks Bufalowbob > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22768|22737|2010-03-07 18:35:47|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: foam and primer|This black truck liner product is wonderful for anchor locker lining and deck lockers if you are lucky enough to have them. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Frantz Date: Saturday, March 6, 2010 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] foam and primer To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" > Ate you talking about the professionally installed sprayed on > bed  > liners?    The ones I'm thinking of are a black > urethane.   They are  > "sticky" as opposed to the slippery plastic liners. > > To your question no I haven't tried it, I don't even have a > boat  > yet.   On exterior surfaces though I'd be affraid that > the material  > would get way to hot.   I've thought that it would be > great for  > interiors.   The slip resistance would be very > helpful.    I also  > wonder if foam insulation would bond to it. > > Ot would seem to be worth looking into.   Somebody has > all ready tried  > it i suspect, it's just a manner of finding him. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Mar 6, 2010, at 1:06 PM, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > I was considering using the "truck box-liner" paint on my > decks as a > > "traction" coating. Has anyone tried that?? > > Gord > > > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > > > >> I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of > foam to > >> the inside of a hull.  The questions I have are. Do you > need to > >> prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is > do you > >> foam below the water line and what type of product would you > put in > >> the builge ? > >> > >> Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise > foam used > >> in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment > beds that > >> have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > >> > >> Thanks  Bufalowbob > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> To Unsubscribe, send a blank > message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22769|22759|2010-03-07 21:23:14|Shane Duncan|Re: Starting a 26-footer!|i,ve just finished a Brent Swain 31 in Perth am happy to help out in any way   cheers Shane Hello all ... I'm ready to start building a Brent Swain 26 in Brisbane, Australia. The only thing stopping me starting immediately is that I'm having some trouble finding a suitable (IE: low rent!) building site. Mine is a weekend-only project, so the time frame might spread out a bit. If there is anyone from Brisbane reading this who might be able to help, or offer any suggestions, I would be most grateful if you would contact me. Any other Swain builders in Brisbane? Sincerely ... Kim. kimdxx at yahoo dot com dot au ______________________________ ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22770|22737|2010-03-07 22:45:21|kingsknight4life|Re: foam and primer|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > "Be careful if you test polyurethane foam for > combustibility, the smoke is extremely toxic." > I heard they make some spray foam insulation now out of soybeans or something similar. It might be a safer alternative. Rowland| 22771|22731|2010-03-08 09:24:42|maxcamirand|Re: 40 ft swain cargo|Cargo ships take on water ballast when they are unladen because the variation in their load is so huge. If they didn't take on ballast, the propeller and rudder wouldn't be submerged and the ship would have very low ultimate stability. A large cargo ship's cargo can weigh several times more than the ship. Regards, -Max --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Exactly my point. Why do you need to put "extra" lead ballast if you have estimated MOST of the gear which will be on your boat? Just put as much ballast as needed to keep draft 4-5in below waterline. Paint 4-5in down strip from designed waterline in one color, and 4-5in above in other color. At least you will have very good reference about your boat load and no need to repaint waterline. And waterline is not just line you paint "for the look", that why cargo ships carry ballast if no cargo on board. > > P.S. It is more important for DIY boats than for production boats (where most things taken into account). > | 22772|22759|2010-03-08 11:33:02|kimdxx|Re: Starting a 26-footer!|Thanks Shane! I've watched the progress of your boat through your posts to this group. Look's like you've done a great job! It looks awesome! Can't wait to start mine. I haven't found a low-rent spot to build it yet, so I posted my message here hoping that a Brisbane reader might be able to help by letting me know of any cheap building sites they were aware of. Anyway, I should find somewhere within the next month or so. Best of luck with your 31-footer! Sincerely ... Kim. kimdxx at yahoo dot com dot au ______________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: i,ve just finished a Brent Swain 31 in Perth am happy to help out in any way cheers Shane ______________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: Hello all ... I'm ready to start building a Brent Swain 26 in Brisbane, Australia. The only thing stopping me starting immediately is that I'm having some trouble finding a suitable (IE: low rent!) building site. Mine is a weekend-only project, so the time frame might spread out a bit. If there is anyone from Brisbane reading this who might be able to help, or offer any suggestions, I would be most grateful if you would contact me. Any other Swain builders in Brisbane? Sincerely ... Kim. kimdxx at yahoo dot com dot au ______________________________ | 22773|22759|2010-03-08 14:58:04|brentswain38|Re: Starting a 26-footer!|Kim There was a 26 sailed out from BC, which was sold in Brisbane a few years back to a guy I believe was named Rob Collier. The boat was named Misty Blue. Have you seen it there? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kimdxx" wrote: > > > Hello all ... > > I'm ready to start building a Brent Swain 26 in Brisbane, Australia. > > The only thing stopping me starting immediately is that I'm having some trouble finding a suitable (ie: low rent!) building site. Mine is a weekend-only project, so the time frame might spread out a bit. > > If there is anyone from Brisbane reading this who might be able to help, or offer any suggestions, I would be most grateful if you would contact me. > > Any other Swain builders in Brisbane? > > Sincerely ... > > Kim. > > kimdxx at yahoo dot com dot au > > ______________________________ > | 22774|22737|2010-03-08 15:05:23|brentswain38|Re: foam and primer|If you seal a steel boat completely, on your way out, the fire will go out by itself, due to lack of oxygen, before it burns very far. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Be careful if you test polyurethane foam for > combustibility, the smoke is extremely toxic. > > I've been looking into foam and > insulation. While it looks like sprayed urethane > has some advantages, it is worth being aware of > two major drawbacks. First, the smoke from it is > very toxic (hydrogen cyanide amongst other > compounds), so you might have to get away from > the ship in case of a fire just to avoid death > from limited smoke exposure. Second, it looks > like even the fire retardent forms will > burn. The link below provides an example that > isn't all that different from a boat. I would be > paranoid that all wiring run near urethane foam > was done perfectly with appropriate insulation > and fusing. Ethafoam looks like an alternative > that would generate less toxic smoke, although it > has to be glued in as sheets. > > http://static.monolithic.com/foam/fire_hazard/index.html > > Darren > > At 10:15 AM 06/03/2010, you wrote: > > > > > >Incidentally, it is recommended that you purchase the "fire retardant" > >foam for interior use. That is what I used and when the foam-trimming > >was complete, I then sprayed the entire interior with fire-retardant > >paint. Testing the foam combustability, with a torch, reveled that it > >does not support flame but it does smoke. > >Gord > >On 6-Mar-10, at 10:02 AM, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > > I'm not aware of guidelines for foaming the Brent Swain designs. I > > > have foamed my 40'. After all the ports, hatches, piping, wiring, > > > plumbing, access ports and attachment points are in; I hired a truck- > > > mounted foamer to spray the entire interior with a rigid foam to a > > > depth of 3". Then I spent 3 weeks trimming it all flush to accomodate > > > the interior "skin" (red oak plywood (1/8"). Keep in mind that it is > > > nearly impossible to add any piping, wiring or attachment points once > > > the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. > > > Gord > > > > > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > > > > > >> I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > > >> the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > > >> prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > > >> foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > > >> the builge ? > > >> > > >> Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used > > >> in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that > > >> have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > > >> > > >> Thanks Bufalowbob > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22775|22737|2010-03-08 15:12:02|brentswain38|Re: foam and primer|The old flammable stuff was also extremely hard to light. People would hold a blowtorch on it, and it would go out as soon as they took the torch away. Then they would assume it wouldn't burn. Then, for some unknown reason, when they were welding, a tiny spark would set it off like gasoline, after thousands of such sparks and open flames had refused to set it on fire. Foam has a caustic sense of humour. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > When I set my boat on fire, while I was filling gaps with a can of spray foam. The fresh stuff from the can while it was still curing burned really well but the other stuff, the the foam that had been sprayed in the day before really didn't burn, it melted but the fire certainly didn't spread past the fresh stuff. I didn't specify fire retardant foam I think it was poly-iso-cyanide or something like that. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > Incidentally, it is recommended that you purchase the "fire retardant" > > foam for interior use. That is what I used and when the foam-trimming > > was complete, I then sprayed the entire interior with fire-retardant > > paint. Testing the foam combustability, with a torch, reveled that it > > does not support flame but it does smoke. > > Gord > > On 6-Mar-10, at 10:02 AM, Gord Schnell wrote: > > > > > I'm not aware of guidelines for foaming the Brent Swain designs. I > > > have foamed my 40'. After all the ports, hatches, piping, wiring, > > > plumbing, access ports and attachment points are in; I hired a truck- > > > mounted foamer to spray the entire interior with a rigid foam to a > > > depth of 3". Then I spent 3 weeks trimming it all flush to accomodate > > > the interior "skin" (red oak plywood (1/8"). Keep in mind that it is > > > nearly impossible to add any piping, wiring or attachment points once > > > the foam is in....so check and test it all BEFORE foaming. > > > Gord > > > > > > On 6-Mar-10, at 4:15 AM, Bob Wills wrote: > > > > > >> I would like to know anyones experance on the aplacation of foam to > > >> the inside of a hull. The questions I have are. Do you need to > > >> prime it first and if so with what ? The second question is do you > > >> foam below the water line and what type of product would you put in > > >> the builge ? > > >> > > >> Are there anyone with experance using the type of low rise foam used > > >> in truck bed liners? I see a lot of open to the enviroment beds that > > >> have been coated and seem to not have any rust issues. > > >> > > >> Thanks Bufalowbob > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@ > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22776|22737|2010-03-08 16:58:11|Denis Buggy|Re: foam and primer|--- I heard they make some spray foam insulation now out of soybeans or something similar. It might be a safer alternative. Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22777|22759|2010-03-08 19:08:56|kimdxx|Re: Starting a 26-footer!|Hi Brent ... No, unfortunately I haven't been able to track down either "Misty Blue" or Rob Collier. They've probably sailed north to our Great Barrier Reef, and are cruising around there somewhere! :-) Sincerely ... Kim. kimdxx at yahoo dot com dot au ______________________________ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: Kim There was a 26 sailed out from BC, which was sold in Brisbane a few years back to a guy I believe was named Rob Collier. The boat was named Misty Blue. Have you seen it there? ______________________________ | 22778|22759|2010-03-09 09:46:31|Carl Anderson|PV panels & charge controller|Anyone in BC or WA need some PV panels & charge controller? I'm upgrading ours & have 4 older 60 watt panels plus a 25 amp duel battery charge controller for sale (cheap). Carl sv-mom.com| 22779|22759|2010-03-09 13:50:30|Carl Anderson|Re: PV panels & charge controller|SOLD! That was fast. Carl Carl Anderson wrote: > > > Anyone in BC or WA need some PV panels & charge controller? > > I'm upgrading ours & have 4 older 60 watt panels plus a 25 amp duel > battery charge controller for sale (cheap). > > Carl > sv-mom.com > > | 22780|22780|2010-03-09 21:26:57|jpronk1|Comox|I was wondering if there are any Brent boats in the area of Courtenay, Comox, and Cumberland? I was in Cuba last week and met a couple from Royston. They were saying that it is easy to fly out to Comox? James| 22781|22781|2010-03-10 04:14:35|Ralph|detail plans|free set of ideas and inspiration from Sparkman and Stephens on: http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/yachtdesign/design_typeplans/| 22782|22782|2010-03-10 09:45:41|Denis Buggy|Fw: [origamiboats] Re: foam and primer 2nd attempt to send|----- Original Message ----- From: Denis Buggy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: foam and primer --- I heard they make some spray foam insulation now out of soybeans or something similar. It might be a safer alternative. Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22783|22780|2010-03-10 13:20:13|theboilerflue|Re: Comox|There are 4 twin keelers and 2 single keelers in the comox valley currently plus Karl and Brent who are both out of town at the time but who knows when they'll get back in. The comox airport is, I believe they called it an "international class" airport which apparently means it's a main airport with larger flights regularly. Really it just meant more people could move here easily and build shitty plastic houses everywhere there wasn't already one. So yep, apparently easy to fly to. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > I was wondering if there are any Brent boats in the area of Courtenay, Comox, and Cumberland? > I was in Cuba last week and met a couple from Royston. They were saying that it is easy to fly out to Comox? > James > | 22784|22780|2010-03-10 19:49:49|brentswain38|Re: Comox|Westjet flies directly to Comox on regular flights. It's one of the longest runways in North America. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > I was wondering if there are any Brent boats in the area of Courtenay, Comox, and Cumberland? > I was in Cuba last week and met a couple from Royston. They were saying that it is easy to fly out to Comox? > James > | 22785|22780|2010-03-10 19:51:21|brentswain38|Re: Comox|I'm in Ladysmith at the moment, heading for Brentwood Bay for a couple of weeks then back north to Comox eventually. Karl is in the Gulf Islands, I believe. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > I was wondering if there are any Brent boats in the area of Courtenay, Comox, and Cumberland? > I was in Cuba last week and met a couple from Royston. They were saying that it is easy to fly out to Comox? > James > | 22786|22780|2010-03-10 20:58:35|James Pronk|Re: Comox|I hear the run way is on the list for places the space shuttle can land if it needs to --- On Wed, 3/10/10, brentswain38 wrote: From: brentswain38 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Comox To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 7:49 PM   Westjet flies directly to Comox on regular flights. It's one of the longest runways in North America. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "jpronk1" wrote: > > I was wondering if there are any Brent boats in the area of Courtenay, Comox, and Cumberland? > I was in Cuba last week and met a couple from Royston. They were saying that it is easy to fly out to Comox? > James > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22787|22787|2010-03-13 04:34:38|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Batteries lead|Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. Question. Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. alfredo| 22788|22787|2010-03-13 11:55:48|theboilerflue|Re: Batteries lead|I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > Question. > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > alfredo > | 22789|22787|2010-03-13 12:51:31|James Pronk|Re: Batteries lead|What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? James --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: From: theboilerflue Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM   I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > Question. > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > alfredo > __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22790|22787|2010-03-13 15:21:41|brentswain38|Re: Batteries lead|Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than steel. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? > James > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > From: theboilerflue > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > >   > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > Question. > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22791|22787|2010-03-13 16:00:41|theboilerflue|Re: Batteries lead|maybe a pipe nipple would be easier --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than steel. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? > > James > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > Question. > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22792|22787|2010-03-13 22:04:34|Doug Jackson|Re: Batteries lead|The acid in a dead battery is weak, but the oxide on the plates and the sludge in the bottom is going to be a real mess. Then you have the post and the connections on the top of the plates after you cut away all of the rest and remove all of the plate separators . And you can hammer it but it will have a lot of gaps between the plates. On the up side you will be great at arm wrestling when your done flattening 6 tons of lead with a hammer. Maybe you should try a dozen batteries first and time yourself on the last one, then decide. We snag batteries when ever they are available and free and just set them on top of the wheel weights in our wood fired smelter. The water boils off, the plastic burns away and the plate separators turn to ash. It takes a little longer but they are no trouble at all. The only batteries that are worthless to try and melt down are coiled gel-cells. They are so tightly packed that the lead sicks between the separator layers even when it is molten. Here's the web page with the smelter: http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ________________________________ From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:00:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead maybe a pipe nipple would be easier --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than steel. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? > > James > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > Question. > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22793|22787|2010-03-14 05:58:36|mauro gonzaga|Re: Batteries lead|Come on boys!!! are you looking for troubles? Lead is dam'd poisoning and sulphuric acid is its companion. There is no chance to make home made lead without jeopardizing your own and your family's health. The saving doesn't pay for. Use iron and good old cement if you can't effors lead (less efficient? the time you will save sailing faster what will be used for?), but don't play with your health. Not talking about environment. If one of your neighbours call police when you do melting of PbSO4 you will have serious troubles. Brent, you are a designer, discourage this attitude, please. Sorry, your health is not my businnes, but I would not be in peace with myself if I didn't try to dicourage you all. Friendly and sincerely yours. Mauro  --- On Sun, 3/14/10, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 3:57 AM   The acid in a dead battery is weak, but the oxide on the plates and the sludge in the bottom is going to be a real mess. Then you have the post and the connections on the top of the plates after you cut away all of the rest and remove all of the plate separators . And you can hammer it but it will have a lot of gaps between the plates. On the up side you will be great at arm wrestling when your done flattening 6 tons of lead with a hammer. Maybe you should try a dozen batteries first and time yourself on the last one, then decide. We snag batteries when ever they are available and free and just set them on top of the wheel weights in our wood fired smelter. The water boils off, the plastic burns away and the plate separators turn to ash. It takes a little longer but they are no trouble at all. The only batteries that are worthless to try and melt down are coiled gel-cells. They are so tightly packed that the lead sicks between the separator layers even when it is molten. Here's the web page with the smelter: http://www.submarin eboat.com/ working_with_ lead.htm Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ____________ _________ _________ __ From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:00:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead maybe a pipe nipple would be easier --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than steel. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? > > James > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > Question. > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22794|22787|2010-03-14 10:54:19|James Pronk|Re: Batteries lead|Good Call Mauro I remember seeing a program on TV years ago about the country's most toxic person (I think it was W5 or the Fifth Estate). It was a guy that had working in a scrape yard and had melted batteries in an open pot smelter. Not only did he have a hole range of physical health problems, he was mentally, totally messed up, I guess like a mad hatter. I can't remember the length of time the guy was exposed to this environment, I think this was 15 or 20 years ago when I saw this program. Also I am no medical expert,but I will be very careful when working with my lead. James --- On Sun, 3/14/10, mauro gonzaga wrote: From: mauro gonzaga Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 5:58 AM   Come on boys!!! are you looking for troubles? Lead is dam'd poisoning and sulphuric acid is its companion. There is no chance to make home made lead without jeopardizing your own and your family's health. The saving doesn't pay for. Use iron and good old cement if you can't effors lead (less efficient? the time you will save sailing faster what will be used for?), but don't play with your health. Not talking about environment. If one of your neighbours call police when you do melting of PbSO4 you will have serious troubles. Brent, you are a designer, discourage this attitude, please. Sorry, your health is not my businnes, but I would not be in peace with myself if I didn't try to dicourage you all. Friendly and sincerely yours. Mauro  --- On Sun, 3/14/10, Doug Jackson wrote: From: Doug Jackson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 3:57 AM   The acid in a dead battery is weak, but the oxide on the plates and the sludge in the bottom is going to be a real mess. Then you have the post and the connections on the top of the plates after you cut away all of the rest and remove all of the plate separators . And you can hammer it but it will have a lot of gaps between the plates. On the up side you will be great at arm wrestling when your done flattening 6 tons of lead with a hammer. Maybe you should try a dozen batteries first and time yourself on the last one, then decide. We snag batteries when ever they are available and free and just set them on top of the wheel weights in our wood fired smelter. The water boils off, the plastic burns away and the plate separators turn to ash. It takes a little longer but they are no trouble at all. The only batteries that are worthless to try and melt down are coiled gel-cells. They are so tightly packed that the lead sicks between the separator layers even when it is molten. Here's the web page with the smelter: http://www.submarin eboat.com/ working_with_ lead.htm Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ____________ _________ _________ __ From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:00:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead maybe a pipe nipple would be easier --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than steel. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? > > James > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > Question. > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22795|22787|2010-03-14 12:58:50|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Batteries lead|Please just let me understand why do I have to neutralise the lead. Can I take the lead from batteries and just put it into the keel without doing anything? Yes, here in Italy I can get a lot of old batteries for free. In this moment I could have about one ton lead from old solar panels battery. I weld a plate on top of the lead at the end of the job, of course. alfredo > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than steel. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? > > James > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > Question. > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 22796|22787|2010-03-14 13:00:13|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Batteries lead|Yes, this is a problem where to put the acid. alfredo > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alfredo\.nannetti\@...\.it" wrote: > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > Question. > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > alfredo > > > > > | 22797|22787|2010-03-14 13:01:32|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Batteries lead|Ok, let me understand. You mean that if I take off the lead from the plastic box whithout melt anything I'm in danger? alfredo > Come on boys!!! are you looking for troubles? Lead is dam'd poisoning and sulphuric acid is its companion. There is no chance to make home made lead without jeopardizing your own and your family's health. The saving doesn't pay for. Use iron and good old cement if you can't effors lead (less efficient? the time you will save sailing faster what will be used for?), but don't play with your health. Not talking about environment. If one of your neighbours call police when you do melting of PbSO4 you will have serious troubles. > Brent, you are a designer, discourage this attitude, please. Sorry, your health is not my businnes, but I would not be in peace with myself if I didn't try to dicourage you all. Friendly and sincerely yours. > Mauro  > > --- On Sun, 3/14/10, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > From: Doug Jackson > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 3:57 AM > > >   > > > > The acid in a dead battery is weak, but the oxide on the plates and the sludge in the bottom is going to be a real mess. Then you have the post and the connections on the top of the plates after you cut away all of the rest and remove all of the plate separators . And you can hammer it but it will have a lot of gaps between the plates. On the up side you will be great at arm wrestling when your done flattening 6 tons of lead with a hammer. Maybe you should try a dozen batteries first and time yourself on the last one, then decide. > > We snag batteries when ever they are available and free and just set them on top of the wheel weights in our wood fired smelter. The water boils off, the plastic burns away and the plate separators turn to ash. It takes a little longer but they are no trouble at all. The only batteries that are worthless to try and melt down are coiled gel-cells. They are so tightly packed that the lead sicks between the separator layers even when it is molten. > > Here's the web page with the smelter: http://www.submarin eboat.com/ working_with_ lead.htm > > Doug > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine > Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: theboilerflue > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:00:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > maybe a pipe nipple would be easier > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than steel. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? > > > James > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > > Question. > > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 22798|22787|2010-03-14 13:09:13|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Batteries lead|I imagine. It has to be a big job. For me to build or not to build the boat is just a matter of money. Thats why I'm thinking about different solutions. Anyway, the 31 feet ballast is about 1,6 tons. alfredo > The acid in a dead battery is weak, but the oxide on the plates and the sludge in the bottom is going to be a real mess. Then you have the post and the connections on the top of the plates after you cut away all of the rest and remove all of the plate separators . And you can hammer it but it will have a lot of gaps between the plates. On the up side you will be great at arm wrestling when your done flattening 6 tons of lead with a hammer. Maybe you should try a dozen batteries first and time yourself on the last one, then decide. > > We snag batteries when ever they are available and free and just set them on top of the wheel weights in our wood fired smelter. The water boils off, the plastic burns away and the plate separators turn to ash. It takes a little longer but they are no trouble at all. The only batteries that are worthless to try and melt down are coiled gel-cells. They are so tightly packed that the lead sicks between the separator layers even when it is molten. > > Here's the web page with the smelter: http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm > > Doug > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine > Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: theboilerflue > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:00:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > > maybe a pipe nipple would be easier > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than steel. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? > > > James > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > > Question. > > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > | 22799|22787|2010-03-14 13:30:44|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: Batteries lead|A scrap yard just outside Nanaimo was melting lead on site, no protection and half the time the chimney was blowing toxic lead fumes towards nearby houses including the home of the original and very old, owner...... The yard appears to be under new ownership.   Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:54 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Good Call Mauro > I remember seeing a program on TV years ago about the country's > most toxic person (I think it was W5 or the Fifth Estate). It > was a guy that had working in a scrape yard and had melted > batteries in an open pot smelter. Not only did he have a hole > range of physical health problems, he was mentally, totally > messed up, I guess like a mad hatter. > I can't remember the length of time the guy was exposed to this > environment, I think this was 15 or 20 years ago when I saw this > program. Also I am no medical expert,but I will be very careful > when working with my lead. > James > > > --- On Sun, 3/14/10, mauro gonzaga > wrote: > > > From: mauro gonzaga > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Received: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 5:58 AM > > >   > > > > Come on boys!!! are you looking for troubles? Lead is dam'd > poisoning and sulphuric acid is its companion. There is no > chance to make home made lead without jeopardizing your own and > your family's health. The saving doesn't pay for. Use iron and > good old cement if you can't effors lead (less efficient? the > time you will save sailing faster what will be used for?), but > don't play with your health. Not talking about environment. If > one of your neighbours call police when you do melting of PbSO4 > you will have serious troubles. > Brent, you are a designer, discourage this attitude, please. > Sorry, your health is not my businnes, but I would not be in > peace with myself if I didn't try to dicourage you all. Friendly > and sincerely yours. > Mauro  > > --- On Sun, 3/14/10, Doug Jackson wrote: > > From: Doug Jackson > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 3:57 AM > >   > > The acid in a dead battery is weak, but the oxide on the plates > and the sludge in the bottom is going to be a real mess. Then > you have the post and the connections on the top of the plates > after you cut away all of the rest and remove all of the plate > separators . And you can hammer it but it will have a lot of > gaps between the plates. On the up side you will be great at arm > wrestling when your done flattening 6 tons of lead with a > hammer. Maybe you should try a dozen batteries first and time > yourself on the last one, then decide. > > We snag batteries when ever they are available and free and just > set them on top of the wheel weights in our wood fired smelter. > The water boils off, the plastic burns away and the plate > separators turn to ash. It takes a little longer but they are no > trouble at all. The only batteries that are worthless to try and > melt down are coiled gel-cells. They are so tightly packed that > the lead sicks between the separator layers even when it is molten. > > Here's the web page with the smelter: http://www.submarin > eboat.com/ working_with_ lead.htm > > Doug > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern > submarineJoin "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: theboilerflue > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:00:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > maybe a pipe nipple would be easier > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. > Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding > a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let > you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the > nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for > it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than > steel. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk > wrote: > > > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that > work on the acid? > > > James > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or > something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you > going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science > fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ > @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries > (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > > Question. > > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, > we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in > little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy > for hammering. > > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ > _________ _ > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > >       > __________________________________________________________________Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22800|22787|2010-03-14 13:45:11|Carl Anderson|life choices (was battery lead)|Lead is not that expensive or hard to come by. About 50 to 60 cents a pound at our local scrap yard. (they have 20,000+ pounds in stock). And then it comes in bricks or sheets and is ready to use. All things in life really are just a simple choice. The choice is this: GOOD, FAST, CHEAP (you can only pick two of the above) Since I want a good job that leaves the following two ways: You can spend all your time and do it cheap. Or you can spend all your money and do it fast. I would rather have extra time than extra money when I set out cruising. Just my thoughts, Carl sv-mom.com| 22801|22801|2010-03-14 13:46:41|martin|A.C. grounding?|Can anyone help with a question regarding the ground circuit on my 30amp shore power. The marinco booklet I have shows a diagram with the ground going to the engine negative terminal(boat ground). This is supposed to be the ABYC approved method. If I attach a suitably sized ground cable from the shore power plug to anywhere on Prairie Maid that is steel, will that take care of the problem? The conductor(black) and the neutral(white) will go to the main breaker and then to a three breaker distribution box. Thanks, Martin| 22802|22801|2010-03-14 16:40:41|wild_explorer|Re: A.C. grounding?|Shore AC ground should NOT go directly to boat ground. Use Isolation transformer (shore AC ground is connected to transformer's coils shield-separator) OR "galvanic isolator" with proper current raiting in case of direct shore AC connection (between shore AC ground and boat AC ground). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > Can anyone help with a question regarding the ground circuit on my 30amp shore power. The marinco booklet I have shows a diagram with the ground going to the engine negative terminal(boat ground). This is supposed to be the ABYC approved method. If I attach a suitably sized ground cable from the shore power plug to anywhere on Prairie Maid that is steel, will that take care of the problem? The conductor(black) and the neutral(white) will go to the main breaker and then to a three breaker distribution box. > Thanks, Martin > | 22803|22787|2010-03-14 16:52:46|kingsknight4life|Re: Batteries lead|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > A scrap yard just outside Nanaimo was melting lead on site, no protection and half the time the chimney was blowing toxic lead fumes towards nearby houses including the home of the original and very old, owner...... > > The yard appears to be under new ownership. > > > >Is that yard just south of Nanaimo on the highway? If so those are the (insert your worse expletives here) that bought my old hull from Bev's douche bag uncle. BTW he goes to court in July in Duncan. I think the 8th is finally shane Capps day before the courts. rowland| 22804|22801|2010-03-14 17:33:42|martin|A.C. grounding?|From what I've read so far it seems that they require a galvanic isolater to have a monitoring system in the panel and that a transformer system is not much more expensive now. Does anyone have any idea as to how much these items run on the west coast of Canada. Space shuttle parts would be easier to locate out here on the prairies. Hey Roland you haven't been out for a boat fix lately. Martin.| 22805|22787|2010-03-14 17:34:42|brentswain38|Re: Batteries lead|Maybe some one should sue the bastards in to bankruptcy, or put the individual owners in the poor house for life. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: > > > > A scrap yard just outside Nanaimo was melting lead on site, no protection and half the time the chimney was blowing toxic lead fumes towards nearby houses including the home of the original and very old, owner...... > > > > The yard appears to be under new ownership. > > > > > > > >Is that yard just south of Nanaimo on the highway? If so those are the (insert your worse expletives here) that bought my old hull from Bev's douche bag uncle. BTW he goes to court in July in Duncan. I think the 8th is finally shane Capps day before the courts. > rowland > | 22806|22787|2010-03-14 17:46:53|brentswain38|Re: Batteries lead|You can't get enough scrap steel in twin keels , and in a single keel, steel will drastically reduce your tankage. It it's easy to stay upwind of any lead melting, if you do all the melting outside the hull, as shown in my book, and if you are careful, reducing the odds of lead poisoning to almost zero. Yes lead is dangerous ,but as long as you don't get in a hurry, you can reduce the chances of lead poisoning to almost zero. Canada lost a lawsuit from the oil companies for trying to ban an extremely toxic Gasoline addative from Canadian gas, under NAFTA. Cost taxpayers here millions. Opposing NAFTA will do more to reduce poisoning of the populace, than worrying about a once in a lifetime melting your lead, where you can totally control the level of caution.. Haven't ever heard of anyone in Canada having legal problems from melting lead. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Come on boys!!! are you looking for troubles? Lead is dam'd poisoning and sulphuric acid is its companion. There is no chance to make home made lead without jeopardizing your own and your family's health. The saving doesn't pay for. Use iron and good old cement if you can't effors lead (less efficient? the time you will save sailing faster what will be used for?), but don't play with your health. Not talking about environment. If one of your neighbours call police when you do melting of PbSO4 you will have serious troubles. > Brent, you are a designer, discourage this attitude, please. Sorry, your health is not my businnes, but I would not be in peace with myself if I didn't try to dicourage you all. Friendly and sincerely yours. > Mauro  > > --- On Sun, 3/14/10, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > From: Doug Jackson > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 3:57 AM > > >   > > > > The acid in a dead battery is weak, but the oxide on the plates and the sludge in the bottom is going to be a real mess. Then you have the post and the connections on the top of the plates after you cut away all of the rest and remove all of the plate separators . And you can hammer it but it will have a lot of gaps between the plates. On the up side you will be great at arm wrestling when your done flattening 6 tons of lead with a hammer. Maybe you should try a dozen batteries first and time yourself on the last one, then decide. > > We snag batteries when ever they are available and free and just set them on top of the wheel weights in our wood fired smelter. The water boils off, the plastic burns away and the plate separators turn to ash. It takes a little longer but they are no trouble at all. The only batteries that are worthless to try and melt down are coiled gel-cells. They are so tightly packed that the lead sicks between the separator layers even when it is molten. > > Here's the web page with the smelter: http://www.submarin eboat.com/ working_with_ lead.htm > > Doug > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine > Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > From: theboilerflue > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:00:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > maybe a pipe nipple would be easier > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than steel. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? > > > James > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > > Question. > > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22807|22787|2010-03-14 18:53:32|brentswain38|Re: life choices (was battery lead)|50 or 60 cents a pound is what the scrapyard is selling it for. Ask them what they are paying for it, then put an ad in the buy and sell, offering a few cents a pound more, or offer a few cents a pound more to the wheel balancing shoppes. Yes, you could try pound the batteries directly into the keels. I'd try washing it with soda or lime first, to try minimize the acidity. It will come higher in the keels ,but hopefully , not enough to matter. If it's free and doesn't fit it will only cost you a bit of time, and could be removed again if necessary. One client used it on a single kee, then poured molten tar over it. Worked well. As long as you wear gloves while doing it , it can't hurt you. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Lead is not that expensive or hard to come by. > About 50 to 60 cents a pound at our local scrap yard. > (they have 20,000+ pounds in stock). > And then it comes in bricks or sheets and is ready to use. > > All things in life really are just a simple choice. > The choice is this: > GOOD, FAST, CHEAP > (you can only pick two of the above) > Since I want a good job that leaves the following two ways: > You can spend all your time and do it cheap. > Or you can spend all your money and do it fast. > > I would rather have extra time than extra money when I set out cruising. > l;ten tar over it. > Just my thoughts, > Carl > sv-mom.com > | 22808|22801|2010-03-14 19:17:07|wild_explorer|Re: A.C. grounding?|The best way is to use "old fashion" Isolation transformer with ground shield pin/wire. It is heavy, but if it has double primary coil, you can connect to 220v AC shore power as well as 110v AC (just do not forget to change voltage range switch settings. There are indicators for that too) You may find AC-to-AC power inverter. It will be lighter, but it has electronics in it. I (personally) prefer old-proven technology - transformer. GFI AC breakers another "must-have" item for boat AC system. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > and that a transformer system is not much more expensive now. > | 22809|22801|2010-03-14 21:54:14|kingsknight4life|Re: A.C. grounding?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > Can anyone help with a question regarding the ground circuit on my 30amp shore power. The marinco booklet I have shows a diagram with the ground going to the engine negative terminal(boat ground). This is supposed to be the ABYC approved method. If I attach a suitably sized ground cable from the shore power plug to anywhere on Prairie Maid that is steel, will that take care of the problem? The conductor(black) and the neutral(white) will go to the main breaker and then to a three breaker distribution box. > Thanks, Martin > LOL I've been working a lot and been "in the neighborhood" almost daily, I just havent had the time to stop or else it has been at some ungodly hour. lol Are you still looking for turnbuckles? If so I think I can get 5/8 x 12" open jaw galv. turnbuckles for around $20-25. Rowland| 22810|18834|2010-03-15 07:07:42|BrdbMc@aol.com|lead|I thought one of the reasons to build a boat was to enjoy time sailing the boat ,working with lead could shorten the enjoyment . Lead poisoning is one of the most devastating things that can happen to a human.Lead was used as filler in the car plant were i worked ,when it was discovered to be the cause of illnesses such as brain damage, the leading areas were completely enclosed with air locks and the workers wore pressurized suits.The process they were doing was a bit like plumbers lead wiping joints then smoothing the surface with grinders and rasps. For the company to take such measures most have meant it was a real killer Lead was replaced by other fillers but it was still used on the Rolls Royce bodies we made under license I would leave lead well alone. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22811|22801|2010-03-15 14:56:41|martin|A.C. grounding?|I've got my supplier at the coast doing some leg work on prices for isolaters and transformers. Should hear back in a day or so. My Nigel Calder book leans towards the transformer but it is an old edition and things seem to change. My supplier seems to sell only isolaters and has never had a call for a transformer. One web site I checked out stated that there is a difference between a transformer for land use and a dedicated marine version. Anyone have any info on that. I tend to be leary of sales claims these days. I have three recepticles on board and they are protected by a G.F.I. And the circuit breaker. My 20amp charger is a marine version and should not cause any grief. I'm not even sure how much shore power time will occure but I thought it best to have it now rather than retrofit later. Rowland, give me a call some time. Martin.| 22812|22812|2010-03-15 15:04:04|martin|Lead and other safety items.|If you are going to invest all the time, money and effort into a project as big as building an ocean going boat from scratch never compromise your safety. Getting your project almost finished and a dream ready to bear fruit only to have it dashed because you took a short cut seems completely stupid. The health issues assosiated with lead are quite clear. Loose your sight because you were too lazy to put the sheild or glasses on for that two second bit of work. Take a major fall and end up severly injured so you'll never sail again. Think twice about your investment. Martin..| 22813|22812|2010-03-15 15:23:20|alfredo.nannetti@libero.it|Re: Lead and other safety items.|Ok, thanks to evrybody. I've got it. alfredo > If you are going to invest all the time, money and effort into a project as big as building an ocean going boat from scratch never compromise your safety. Getting your project almost finished and a dream ready to bear fruit only to have it dashed because you took a short cut seems completely stupid. The health issues assosiated with lead are quite clear. Loose your sight because you were too lazy to put the sheild or glasses on for that two second bit of work. Take a major fall and end up severly injured so you'll never sail again. Think twice about your investment. Martin.. > > | 22814|22787|2010-03-15 20:43:22|theboilerflue|Re: Batteries lead|Theres another scrap yard in behind that one too, owned by steel pacific Is this shane's sentencing?, or did he plead not-guilty and this is his hearing? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > > > >Is that yard just south of Nanaimo on the highway? If so those are the (insert your worse expletives here) that bought my old hull from Bev's douche bag uncle. BTW he goes to court in July in Duncan. I think the 8th is finally shane Capps day before the courts. > rowland > | 22815|22787|2010-03-15 21:44:34|kingsknight4life|Re: Batteries lead|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Theres another scrap yard in behind that one too, owned by steel pacific > > Is this shane's sentencing?, or did he plead not-guilty and this is his hearing? > >It's his hearing, only. | 22816|22816|2010-03-15 22:39:31|steve|36' origamiboat , twin-keel 'Tardigrade' out for a sail near Comox |Well , here are some links to short videos of Haidan's ('the Boilerflue') 36' origami sailboat 'Tardigrade'. A cool, cloudy ,lightwind day on Baynes Sound. Haidan has everything working now. The interior is in after a few months at the dock in the slough in Courtenay. The windvane works , once he found a makeshift cover for the vane frame (an old sail bag). Works amazingly well , considering. The resurrected John Deere tractor diesel (Haidan figures it's a Yanmar in disguise)pushes the boat at about 5 knots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSkH0FQfEA0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fonmXsXSdtU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgWZ7n7kPUc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2OQLGfqxxk This is a low-budget boat that is working well , and is a lot of fun. Haidan will gratefully accept all donations of folding currency. Just kidding.| 22817|22816|2010-03-16 03:05:39|tropical_breeze52|Re: 36' origamiboat , twin-keel 'Tardigrade' out for a sail near Co|Thanks Guys inspiring I have some invisible bucks for you the real ones are need for my Brent swain Hg02 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > Well , here are some links to short videos of Haidan's ('the Boilerflue') 36' origami sailboat 'Tardigrade'. A cool, cloudy ,lightwind day on Baynes Sound. > > Haidan has everything working now. The interior is in after a few months at the dock in the slough in Courtenay. The windvane works , once he found a makeshift cover for the vane frame (an old sail bag). Works amazingly well , considering. The resurrected John Deere tractor diesel (Haidan figures it's a Yanmar in disguise)pushes the boat at about 5 knots. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSkH0FQfEA0 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fonmXsXSdtU > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgWZ7n7kPUc > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2OQLGfqxxk > > This is a low-budget boat that is working well , and is a lot of fun. > > Haidan will gratefully accept all donations of folding currency. Just kidding. > | 22818|22816|2010-03-16 03:23:59|Paul Wilson|Re: 36' origamiboat , twin-keel 'Tardigrade' out for a sail near Co|Inspiring is a good word.....most people now think you need a $30,000 high gloss paint job to make a boat go. You have your priorities right but I would probably splurge and get a better fitting sailbag for the windvane before you head offshore :). Maybe if you called yourself a bank the government would give you money for free? I hear others have done that. Good luck and all the best, Paul tropical_breeze52 wrote: > > > Thanks Guys inspiring I have some invisible bucks for you the real > ones are need for my Brent swain > Hg02 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "steve" wrote: > > > > Well , here are some links to short videos of Haidan's ('the > Boilerflue') 36' origami sailboat 'Tardigrade'. A cool, cloudy > ,lightwind day on Baynes Sound. > > > > Haidan has everything working now. The interior is in after a few > months at the dock in the slough in Courtenay. The windvane works , > once he found a makeshift cover for the vane frame (an old sail bag). > Works amazingly well , considering. The resurrected John Deere tractor > diesel (Haidan figures it's a Yanmar in disguise)pushes the boat at > about 5 knots. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSkH0FQfEA0 > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fonmXsXSdtU > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgWZ7n7kPUc > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2OQLGfqxxk > > > > > This is a low-budget boat that is working well , and is a lot of fun. > > > > Haidan will gratefully accept all donations of folding currency. > Just kidding. > > > > > | 22819|22819|2010-03-16 10:53:21|SHANE ROTHWELL|Battery Lead|Brent is right, if you REALLY want to get screwed, poisoned and pissed on, involve yourself with NAFTA. Christ did we get sold down the river on that one. Almost as bad as Harper! Re: Batteries lead Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:46 pm (PDT) You can't get enough scrap steel in twin keels , and in a single keel, steel will drastically reduce your tankage. It it's easy to stay upwind of any lead melting, if you do all the melting outside the hull, as shown in my book, and if you are careful, reducing the odds of lead poisoning to almost zero. Yes lead is dangerous ,but as long as you don't get in a hurry, you can reduce the chances of lead poisoning to almost zero. Canada lost a lawsuit from the oil companies for trying to ban an extremely toxic Gasoline addative from Canadian gas, under NAFTA. Cost taxpayers here millions. Opposing NAFTA will do more to reduce poisoning of the populace, than worrying about a once in a lifetime melting your lead, where you can totally control the level of caution.. Haven't ever heard of anyone in Canada having legal problems from melting lead. __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 22820|22787|2010-03-16 15:06:39|brentswain38|Re: Batteries lead|I think Steel Pacific is the new name for Harpers , some of the biggest scrapyard bandits on the coast. They charge $3.25 a pound and up for stainless, when everyone else is charging $1.50 a pound. The tried to monopolise the scrapyard business on the Island by buying up all the smaller scrapyards. Fortunately, they bought them at the peak of the market. Hope they lost their shirts on that scam. Duncan Iron works , right next door to them in Duncan, said they used to go to Harper's for steel , until they found they were charging more than retail, for scrap . Now they buy it all retail, sometimes for less than Harper's scrap prices. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Theres another scrap yard in behind that one too, owned by steel pacific > > Is this shane's sentencing?, or did he plead not-guilty and this is his hearing? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >Is that yard just south of Nanaimo on the highway? If so those are the (insert your worse expletives here) that bought my old hull from Bev's douche bag uncle. BTW he goes to court in July in Duncan. I think the 8th is finally shane Capps day before the courts. > > rowland > > > | 22821|22821|2010-03-16 15:18:09|brentswain38|New boat taxes|The BC government, having given themselves up to 53% wage raises, are funding their raises by increasing the tax on private boat and car sales to 12 %, which, with the federal tax, makes it 18%tax,total. They said they had to give themselves raises to enhance the "greed factor",in order to get "Good People"into politics. Now they are funding their personal bank accounts, by taxing one of the few environmentally sustainable lifestyles available.| 22822|22816|2010-03-16 15:31:02|brentswain38|Re: 36' origamiboat , twin-keel 'Tardigrade' out for a sail near Co|This is a good stage of construction at which to go sailing. All the rest of the finishing can be done at one's leisure, over the coming years , in quiet anchorages up the coast, while cruising. That is far more enjoyable than trying to finish her in a boatyard, while ones enthusiasm is diminishing. At this stage, one should get some enjoyment out of her before continuing. Decisions made while cruising will be far better decisions than one is likely to make without having sailed her. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > Well , here are some links to short videos of Haidan's ('the Boilerflue') 36' origami sailboat 'Tardigrade'. A cool, cloudy ,lightwind day on Baynes Sound. > > Haidan has everything working now. The interior is in after a few months at the dock in the slough in Courtenay. The windvane works , once he found a makeshift cover for the vane frame (an old sail bag). Works amazingly well , considering. The resurrected John Deere tractor diesel (Haidan figures it's a Yanmar in disguise)pushes the boat at about 5 knots. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSkH0FQfEA0 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fonmXsXSdtU > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgWZ7n7kPUc > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2OQLGfqxxk > > This is a low-budget boat that is working well , and is a lot of fun. > > Haidan will gratefully accept all donations of folding currency. Just kidding. > | 22823|22801|2010-03-16 20:10:32|wild_explorer|Re: A.C. grounding?|You can easily "marineze" any transformer by welding watertight box with lid on it and filler pipe. Mount transformer inside the box, seal input/output wires and fill the box by transformer oil. Make this assembly "oil tight". You need 110/220 step Up/Down transformer with ground shield like this (look at transformer diagram drawing) http://www.powertransformer.us/amvecomedicalgradeisolationtransformers.htm The best - to find industrial oil filled step Up/Down transformer (with ground shield). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > One web site I checked out stated that there is a difference between a transformer for land use and a dedicated marine version. > | 22824|22787|2010-03-16 21:56:33|David Frantz|Re: Batteries lead|Around here scrap steel has no value if you are trying to sell it. You would be lucky to recover you gas money. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 16, 2010, at 3:06 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I think Steel Pacific is the new name for Harpers , some of the > biggest scrapyard bandits on the coast. They charge $3.25 a pound > and up for stainless, when everyone else is charging $1.50 a > pound. The tried to monopolise the scrapyard business on the Island > by buying up all the smaller scrapyards. Fortunately, they bought > them at the peak of the market. Hope they lost their shirts on that > scam. > Duncan Iron works , right next door to them in Duncan, said they > used to go to Harper's for steel , until they found they were > charging more than retail, for scrap . Now they buy it all retail, > sometimes for less than Harper's scrap prices. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" > wrote: >> >> Theres another scrap yard in behind that one too, owned by steel >> pacific >> >> Is this shane's sentencing?, or did he plead not-guilty and this is >> his hearing? >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" >> wrote: >>> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is that yard just south of Nanaimo on the highway? If so those >>>> are the (insert your worse expletives here) that bought my old >>>> hull from Bev's douche bag uncle. BTW he goes to court in July in >>>> Duncan. I think the 8th is finally shane Capps day before the >>>> courts. >>> rowland >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22825|22787|2010-03-16 22:06:00|Doug Jackson|Re: Batteries lead|It's a strange world. Kay took just over 1 ton of scrap to the yard not 2 blocks from our house (Tulsa, Ok) We were expecting $20 and they paid her $120. Maybe you should send your wife. :) Doug "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com ________________________________ From: David Frantz To: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tue, March 16, 2010 5:55:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead Around here scrap steel has no value if you are trying to sell it. You would be lucky to recover you gas money. David A Frantz websterindustro@ mac.com Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 16, 2010, at 3:06 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I think Steel Pacific is the new name for Harpers , some of the > biggest scrapyard bandits on the coast. They charge $3.25 a pound > and up for stainless, when everyone else is charging $1.50 a > pound. The tried to monopolise the scrapyard business on the Island > by buying up all the smaller scrapyards. Fortunately, they bought > them at the peak of the market. Hope they lost their shirts on that > scam. > Duncan Iron works , right next door to them in Duncan, said they > used to go to Harper's for steel , until they found they were > charging more than retail, for scrap . Now they buy it all retail, > sometimes for less than Harper's scrap prices. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "theboilerflue" > wrote: >> >> Theres another scrap yard in behind that one too, owned by steel >> pacific >> >> Is this shane's sentencing?, or did he plead not-guilty and this is >> his hearing? >> >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "kingsknight4life" >> wrote: >>> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is that yard just south of Nanaimo on the highway? If so those >>>> are the (insert your worse expletives here) that bought my old >>>> hull from Bev's douche bag uncle. BTW he goes to court in July in >>>> Duncan. I think the 8th is finally shane Capps day before the >>>> courts. >>> rowland >>> >> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22826|22787|2010-03-16 22:16:19|arctichusky44|Re: Batteries lead|No wonder the marine mammals in the arctic are so contaminated with plasticizers when people are still knowingly burning toxic plastic and releasing it into the atmosphere. It's 2010 for gosh sakes! Frank --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > We snag batteries when ever they are available and free and just set them on top of the wheel weights in our wood fired smelter. The water boils off, the plastic burns away and the plate separators turn to ash. It takes a little longer but they are no trouble at all. The only batteries that are worthless to try and melt down are coiled gel-cells. They are so tightly packed that the lead sicks between the separator layers even when it is molten. > > Here's the web page with the smelter: http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm > > Doug > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine > Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > > > > ________________________________ > From: theboilerflue > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:00:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > > maybe a pipe nipple would be easier > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than steel. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? > > > James > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > > Question. > > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 22827|22787|2010-03-17 01:34:08|theboilerflue|Re: Batteries lead|where else would it go? I suppose one could take it to the landfill and bury it but that wouldn't exactly prevent the contamination of the oceans now would it, might slow it down a bit but the toxic stuff has to go somewhere eventually it never really stops being toxic not for a long time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "arctichusky44" wrote: > > > No wonder the marine mammals in the arctic are so contaminated with plasticizers when people are still knowingly burning toxic plastic and releasing it into the atmosphere. It's 2010 for gosh sakes! > Frank > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > > > > We snag batteries when ever they are available and free and just set them on top of the wheel weights in our wood fired smelter. The water boils off, the plastic burns away and the plate separators turn to ash. It takes a little longer but they are no trouble at all. The only batteries that are worthless to try and melt down are coiled gel-cells. They are so tightly packed that the lead sicks between the separator layers even when it is molten. > > > > Here's the web page with the smelter: http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm > > > > Doug > > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern submarine > > Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: theboilerflue > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:00:10 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > > > > > maybe a pipe nipple would be easier > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but heavier than steel. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on the acid? > > > > James > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of baking soda. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > > > Question. > > > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 22828|22828|2010-03-17 07:05:23|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|aluminium pilot house concensus|Hi, Earlier there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. Thanks, Martin.| 22829|22829|2010-03-17 11:35:53|SHANE ROTHWELL|A/C Grounding|Hi Martin, If you are interested I have a big isolation transformer. Dont' know what it's worth but it would be reasonalbe. Shane A.C. grounding? Posted by: "martin" mforster@... prairiemaidca Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:56 am (PDT) I've got my supplier at the coast doing some leg work on prices for isolaters and transformers. Should hear back in a day or so. My Nigel Calder book leans towards the transformer but it is an old edition and things seem to change. My supplier seems to sell only isolaters and has never had a call for a transformer. One web site I checked out stated that there is a difference between a transformer for land use and a dedicated marine version. Anyone have any info on that. I tend to be leary of sales claims these days. I have three recepticles on board and they are protected by a G.F.I. And the circuit breaker. My 20amp charger is a marine version and should not cause any grief. I'm not even sure how much shore power time will occure but I thought it best to have it now rather than retrofit later. Rowland, give me a call some time. Martin. __________________________________________________________________ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 22830|22828|2010-03-17 15:20:52|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|I recently heard that it's good idea to fix your pilothouse a few inches above deck level, as that leads to less corrosion at the junction of steel and aluminium. Makes sense, as it would spend less time wet that way. I'd use a stainless strip for the upright part which the aluminium bolts on to, then use lots of rubber sheet, bushings , washers and caulking between the two , checking it with a multi meter with every bolt put in, to assure electrical isolation. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Hi, > > Earlier there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. > > Thanks, Martin. > | 22831|22801|2010-03-17 17:42:53|ric|Re: A.C. grounding?|Be aware that once you go through an isolating transformer things change. On the primary side you have an active and neutral requiring only single pole switching on the active. On the secondary side you have 2 actives, requiring double pole switching. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > You can easily "marineze" any transformer by welding watertight box with lid on it and filler pipe. Mount transformer inside the box, seal input/output wires and fill the box by transformer oil. Make this assembly "oil tight". > > You need 110/220 step Up/Down transformer with ground shield like this (look at transformer diagram drawing) > > http://www.powertransformer.us/amvecomedicalgradeisolationtransformers.htm > > The best - to find industrial oil filled step Up/Down transformer (with ground shield). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > > > One web site I checked out stated that there is a difference between a transformer for land use and a dedicated marine version. > > > | 22832|22801|2010-03-17 18:12:01|Paul Wilson|Re: A.C. grounding?|>>>You can easily "marineze" any transformer by welding watertight box with lid on it and filler pipe. Mount transformer inside the box, seal input/output wires and fill the box by transformer oil. Make this assembly "oil tight". It seems to me you could cause it to overheat and be a fire risk. There are better ways to spend your time. I would keep it as it is and just make sure its in a relatively cool, dry location. The only mod I would do is possibly install a cooling fan since they tend to get hot. Cheers, Paul| 22833|22801|2010-03-17 18:58:59|wild_explorer|Re: A.C. grounding?|It would not be any changes to boat's AC circuits. Boat's ground wires is connected to neutral of secondary. Primary (from shore AC) will be little bit different - ground goes to separator of primary and secondary. I need to draw schematic - it would be easier to see than try to explain it in writing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ric" wrote: > > Be aware that once you go through an isolating transformer things change. > On the primary side you have an active and neutral requiring only single pole switching on the active. > On the secondary side you have 2 actives, requiring double pole switching. > | 22834|22801|2010-03-17 19:27:32|wild_explorer|Re: A.C. grounding?|NO. Transformer oil has good thermal conductivity and transformer's enclosure case will act as heat-sink (more cooling surface than transformer). Need more cooling? Put ribs on the box (but it should not be necessary). Industrial oil transformers run 365/24/7 - no problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > It seems to me you could cause it to overheat and be a fire risk. There > are better ways to spend your time. I would keep it as it is and just > make sure its in a relatively cool, dry location. The only mod I would > do is possibly install a cooling fan since they tend to get hot. > | 22835|22828|2010-03-18 03:01:24|tropical_breeze52|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|Hey Brent Does this make my twin props idea of equal value to this Hg02 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I recently heard that it's good idea to fix your pilothouse a few inches above deck level, as that leads to less corrosion at the junction of steel and aluminium. Makes sense, as it would spend less time wet that way. I'd use a stainless strip for the upright part which the aluminium bolts on to, then use lots of rubber sheet, bushings , washers and caulking between the two , checking it with a multi meter with every bolt put in, to assure electrical isolation. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Earlier there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > | 22836|22821|2010-03-18 10:35:06|SHANE ROTHWELL|New boat taxes|Fuck em! As it's private property it does not need to be registerred. when it's registerred, legally you are giving it to the registration authority. Paying ANY tax in any form is directly akin to giving them bullets for the gun they hold to your head. So don't arm them. Pay Cash and accept nothing else and conpletely disarm the burocraps. boat taxes Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:18 pm (PDT) The BC government, having given themselves up to 53% wage raises, are funding their raises by increasing the tax on private boat and car sales to 12 %, which, with the federal tax, makes it 18%tax,total. They said they had to give themselves raises to enhance the "greed factor",in order to get "Good People"into politics. Now they are funding their personal bank accounts, by taxing one of the few environmentally sustainable lifestyles available. __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 22837|22821|2010-03-18 13:34:28|brentswain38|Re: New boat taxes|Any boat under 15 tons or 10 hp needs no registration nor license. It doesn't have to even exist on paper, unless you are going offshore. Some people I know have built boats which, changed hands several times, without existing on paper. You should put name plates on them, changeable any time, just to keep the bureaucrats confused. My first boat didn't exist on paper and I spent a couple of years cruising he South Pacific on her. I wouldn't have bothered licensing my current boat if I were not heading to Mexico where they like paper. Licensing instead of registering makes it impossible to get a lien to stick to her. Registration expires, if you don't renew it every three years . No charge , yet, but expect that to change. I wonder if registering a boat, then letting the registration expire, is a good way to get rid of a license number? Any lawyers out there who can give us the answer? Registration is considered "Proof of Ownership". Welding your name, etc, in during the building process, in a hidden, hard to reach location, where it would be impossible to do after, would be hard for a thief to explain, if he were not the builder and owner. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Fuck em! As it's private property it does not need to be registerred. when it's registerred, legally you are giving it to the registration authority. > Paying ANY tax in any form is directly akin to giving them bullets for the gun they hold to your head. So don't arm them. Pay Cash and accept nothing else and conpletely disarm the burocraps. > > > > > > boat taxes > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 > Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:18 pm (PDT) > > > The BC government, having given themselves up to 53% wage raises, are funding their raises by increasing the tax on private boat and car sales to 12 %, which, with the federal tax, makes it 18%tax,total. They said they had to give themselves raises to enhance the "greed factor",in order to get "Good People"into politics. Now they are funding their personal bank accounts, by taxing one of the few environmentally sustainable lifestyles available. > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > | 22838|22801|2010-03-18 14:22:56|wild_explorer|Re: A.C. grounding?|Here is a link with some info about advantages of transformer for boat AC power http://www.boatek.com/Article%20-%20Transformer.htm| 22839|22821|2010-03-18 18:05:56|Paul Wilson|Re: New boat taxes|Nowadays, going from country to country without boat registration or proper papers is like traveling without a passport. You will have no end of troubles and probably classed as an undesirable without them. It doesn't matter the size of the boat. Countries readily share information now via computer and even in small seldom visited ports, they are on the internet and everyone is linked together. If you piss one country off, it will be on your record and follow you forever. You bring up an interesting point re expiry. I don't understand what you mean when you say licensing instead of registering. Do you mean provincial licensing? Anyway, I think ownership and registration are two different things. I believe you need proof of ownership to register a boat but you could have ownership papers (Bill of Sale) without having it registered in the same country. Entering a country, they normally want to see registration papers which is good enough since you can't get a registration normally without proving ownership. Now that that Canada have changed the rules, registration expires on a Canadian documented vessel. Originally, it was supposed to last forever. Since I built the boat, I have no Bill of Sale showing ownership, just the documentation papers. If I let my documentation expire, theoretically I would lose my registry number after several years so theoretically I would then have no ownership papers.......I would think this would be a bad thing, wouldn't it? How can you really stay hidden from the system and if you can, do you really want to be restricted to staying in Canada? People who try swapping plates with cars and change data on drivers licenses are always eventually caught. If you were stopped by the coast guard and had no papers and no record on big brother's system, wouldn't you have a lot of hassle, even if you never left Canada? I think they would see through a false name plate pretty quick. Wouldn't they think you might be possibly smuggling drugs, or whatever? The world is quickly changing and much different now than even a few years ago. All the small countries in the Pacific are now linked by computer and share data. They have had a few high profile drug cases as well as immigration (people smuggling) cases and are extremely vigilant. Even in Fiji in extremely remote anchorages, I have been stopped by local village headmen. They write everything down and then send it off to customs and immigration via the coconut wireless. Sometimes they just write boat names down and send it off and you don't even know they have done it. If you are at an island without having properly checked in with the proper permit, you are later fined or deported when they catch up to you. Many of the boats (no matter where in the world) that stop you have radio links to databases and do full background checks. I was recently stopped crewing on a boat to Panama by the American Coast Guard. They followed us for about 3 hours while they did full checks on the boat, on passports, etc. It's probably scary to know what information they would have had on us. I have been told that just about every boat in the Caribbean gets stopped at some time. Anything that doesn't look quite right is an excuse for them to board the boat and pull it apart. I don't like it but I don't know how you can really get around it. Personally, I think you should keep everything straight. It can be a hassle and costs a few bucks but I don't think you should jeopardize your freedom to travel wherever you want to go..... Cheers, Paul brentswain38 wrote: > > > Any boat under 15 tons or 10 hp needs no registration nor license. It > doesn't have to even exist on paper, unless you are going offshore. > Some people I know have built boats which, changed hands several > times, without existing on paper. You should put name plates on them, > changeable any time, just to keep the bureaucrats confused. My first > boat didn't exist on paper and I spent a couple of years cruising he > South Pacific on her. I wouldn't have bothered licensing my current > boat if I were not heading to Mexico where they like paper. Licensing > instead of registering makes it impossible to get a lien to stick to her. > Registration expires, if you don't renew it every three years . No > charge , yet, but expect that to change. I wonder if registering a > boat, then letting the registration expire, is a good way to get rid > of a license number? Any lawyers out there who can give us the answer? > Registration is considered "Proof of Ownership". Welding your name, > etc, in during the building process, in a hidden, hard to reach > location, where it would be impossible to do after, would be hard for > a thief to explain, if he were not the builder and owner. > > > | 22840|22828|2010-03-18 18:14:26|martin demers|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|Brent, I was thinking to join the aluminium pilot house to the steel deck using a polyethylene 1/2 in. plate of maybe 6 in. wide in between the top and bottom as a joint all around so the two different material wont touch. The top section (pilot house) would be bolted to the top half of the plate and the bottom section (deck) would be bolted to the bottom half of the plate leaving maybe 1/4 in. of loose space in between so the two metals are not in contact. For the corners the polyethylene plates could be welded together to be waterproof.What do you think? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:20:27 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house concensus I recently heard that it's good idea to fix your pilothouse a few inches above deck level, as that leads to less corrosion at the junction of steel and aluminium. Makes sense, as it would spend less time wet that way. I'd use a stainless strip for the upright part which the aluminium bolts on to, then use lots of rubber sheet, bushings , washers and caulking between the two , checking it with a multi meter with every bolt put in, to assure electrical isolation. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Hi, > > Earlier there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. > > Thanks, Martin. > _________________________________________________________________ Messenger sur votre t�l�phone = MI sur la route http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712965 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22841|22828|2010-03-18 21:57:47|Aaron Williams|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|Don't forget to paint the steel before conecting the aluminum. --- On Thu, 3/18/10, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house concensus To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 2:14 PM Brent, I was thinking to join the aluminium pilot house to the steel deck using a polyethylene 1/2 in. plate of maybe 6 in. wide in between the top and bottom as a joint all around so the two different material wont touch. The top section (pilot house) would be bolted to the top half  of the plate and the bottom section (deck) would be bolted to the bottom  half of the plate leaving maybe 1/4 in. of loose space in between so the two metals are not in contact. For the corners the polyethylene plates could be welded together to be waterproof.What do you think? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:20:27 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house concensus                         I recently heard that it's good idea to fix your pilothouse a few inches above deck level, as that leads to less corrosion at the junction of steel and aluminium. Makes sense, as it would spend less time wet that way. I'd use a stainless strip for the upright part which the aluminium bolts on to, then use lots of rubber sheet, bushings , washers and  caulking between the two , checking it with a multi meter with every bolt put in, to assure electrical isolation. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > Hi, > > Earlier  there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. > > Thanks, Martin. >                                                _________________________________________________________________ Messenger sur votre téléphone = MI sur la route http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712965 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22842|22828|2010-03-19 02:11:27|tropical_breeze52|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|how would you go using ureathan car (windscreen adhesive)and maybe some thing like car seat belt nylon bushes to insulate the two metals and bolt it together Hg02 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent, > I was thinking to join the aluminium pilot house to the steel deck using a polyethylene 1/2 in. plate of maybe 6 in. wide in between the top and bottom as a joint all around so the two different material wont touch. The top section (pilot house) would be bolted to the top half of the plate and the bottom section (deck) would be bolted to the bottom half of the plate leaving maybe 1/4 in. of loose space in between so the two metals are not in contact. For the corners the polyethylene plates could be welded together to be waterproof.What do you think? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:20:27 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house concensus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I recently heard that it's good idea to fix your pilothouse a few inches above deck level, as that leads to less corrosion at the junction of steel and aluminium. Makes sense, as it would spend less time wet that way. I'd use a stainless strip for the upright part which the aluminium bolts on to, then use lots of rubber sheet, bushings , washers and caulking between the two , checking it with a multi meter with every bolt put in, to assure electrical isolation. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Earlier there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Messenger sur votre téléphone = MI sur la route > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712965 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22843|22801|2010-03-19 03:59:58|wild_explorer|Re: A.C. grounding?|Here is the schematic for Isolation transformer connection to AC shore power and to boat's AC circuit. http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats/web/Isolation_transformer_schematic.pdf Let me know if something needs correction in this drawing.| 22844|22828|2010-03-19 10:17:15|Alan Boucher|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|Something like the plexus type adhesives sold for bonding fiberglass or metal panels may be even better. ----- Original Message ----- From: tropical_breeze52 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 2:10 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house concensus how would you go using ureathan car (windscreen adhesive)and maybe some thing like car seat belt nylon bushes to insulate the two metals and bolt it together Hg02 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Brent, > I was thinking to join the aluminium pilot house to the steel deck using a polyethylene 1/2 in. plate of maybe 6 in. wide in between the top and bottom as a joint all around so the two different material wont touch. The top section (pilot house) would be bolted to the top half of the plate and the bottom section (deck) would be bolted to the bottom half of the plate leaving maybe 1/4 in. of loose space in between so the two metals are not in contact. For the corners the polyethylene plates could be welded together to be waterproof.What do you think? > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:20:27 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house concensus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I recently heard that it's good idea to fix your pilothouse a few inches above deck level, as that leads to less corrosion at the junction of steel and aluminium. Makes sense, as it would spend less time wet that way. I'd use a stainless strip for the upright part which the aluminium bolts on to, then use lots of rubber sheet, bushings , washers and caulking between the two , checking it with a multi meter with every bolt put in, to assure electrical isolation. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Earlier there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Messenger sur votre téléphone = MI sur la route > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712965 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22845|22828|2010-03-19 12:47:58|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|I don't think I would rely on glue alone, without bolts. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Boucher" wrote: > > Something like the plexus type adhesives sold for bonding fiberglass or metal panels may be even better. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: tropical_breeze52 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 2:10 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house concensus > > > > how would you go using ureathan car (windscreen adhesive)and maybe some thing like car seat belt nylon bushes to insulate the two metals > and bolt it together > Hg02 > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > I was thinking to join the aluminium pilot house to the steel deck using a polyethylene 1/2 in. plate of maybe 6 in. wide in between the top and bottom as a joint all around so the two different material wont touch. The top section (pilot house) would be bolted to the top half of the plate and the bottom section (deck) would be bolted to the bottom half of the plate leaving maybe 1/4 in. of loose space in between so the two metals are not in contact. For the corners the polyethylene plates could be welded together to be waterproof.What do you think? > > Martin. > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@ > > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:20:27 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminium pilot house concensus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I recently heard that it's good idea to fix your pilothouse a few inches above deck level, as that leads to less corrosion at the junction of steel and aluminium. Makes sense, as it would spend less time wet that way. I'd use a stainless strip for the upright part which the aluminium bolts on to, then use lots of rubber sheet, bushings , washers and caulking between the two , checking it with a multi meter with every bolt put in, to assure electrical isolation. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > Earlier there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Messenger sur votre téléphone = MI sur la route > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712965 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22846|22828|2010-03-19 12:51:07|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|I don't see much advantage to your twin props idea. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Hey Brent > Does this make my twin props idea of equal value to this > Hg02 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I recently heard that it's good idea to fix your pilothouse a few inches above deck level, as that leads to less corrosion at the junction of steel and aluminium. Makes sense, as it would spend less time wet that way. I'd use a stainless strip for the upright part which the aluminium bolts on to, then use lots of rubber sheet, bushings , washers and caulking between the two , checking it with a multi meter with every bolt put in, to assure electrical isolation. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Earlier there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > | 22847|22828|2010-03-19 15:30:05|tropical_breeze52|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|it might be useful if I forgot to tighten one prop nut Ha Ha --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I don't see much advantage to your twin props idea. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > > > Hey Brent > > Does this make my twin props idea of equal value to this > > Hg02 > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I recently heard that it's good idea to fix your pilothouse a few inches above deck level, as that leads to less corrosion at the junction of steel and aluminium. Makes sense, as it would spend less time wet that way. I'd use a stainless strip for the upright part which the aluminium bolts on to, then use lots of rubber sheet, bushings , washers and caulking between the two , checking it with a multi meter with every bolt put in, to assure electrical isolation. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Earlier there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. > > > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > > > > > | 22848|22821|2010-03-19 17:35:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: New boat taxes|On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 11:05:40AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > Nowadays, going from country to country without boat registration or > proper papers is like traveling without a passport. You will have no > end of troubles and probably classed as an undesirable without them. It > doesn't matter the size of the boat. Countries readily share > information now via computer and even in small seldom visited ports, > they are on the internet and everyone is linked together. If you piss > one country off, it will be on your record and follow you forever. While I agree with Paul's overall point - there's pretty much no getting away from The Man if he wants you - I do have to disagree with this specific point: if this was true, then a large number of people that have been kicked off one island or another down in the Caribbean would never be allowed entry at any other port, and I personally guarantee you that this is _not_ the case. I know of several boats that had to sneak off in the middle of the night because the gendarmes were coming the next morning, with questions ranging from missing property to rape and robbery - but the fact that these scumbags managed to slide out in time and just slip over to the next island in the chain meant that "when the hook is up, all bills are paid." In addition, given that there are lots of places all around the world where you can buy fake ID and many countries, or even states, have no idea of what the registration/ownership requirements are for any state or country other than their own, there's still quite a lot you can "get away with". > The world is quickly changing and much different now than even a few > years ago. All the small countries in the Pacific are now linked by > computer and share data. OK. What happens if a vessel with nothing but Japanese markings shows up at a remote Pacific island, and the crew only speak a remote dialect of Abkhazian? What, exactly, will a village headman report, and would he have any idea of what their registration (issued in Tbilisi, Georgia, and filled out, dated, and signed in that language - but the headman wouldn't know any of that) is supposed to look like? How can they, or anyone within a few thousand miles, know it's not an Ossetian marriage certificate? If you want to disappear, learning some remote - and preferably unreadable to the average Joe - language, or at least an imitation of it, may be a useful idea. I'm just sayin'. :) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22849|22821|2010-03-19 19:28:12|brentswain38|Re: New boat taxes|I remember sailing out of Mexico then giving the customs man in the next atoll port,an English speaking country, my Zarpe in Spanish. Boy was he confused. I offered him the use of my pocket translator, but he declined, and cleared me in , no problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 11:05:40AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Nowadays, going from country to country without boat registration or > > proper papers is like traveling without a passport. You will have no > > end of troubles and probably classed as an undesirable without them. It > > doesn't matter the size of the boat. Countries readily share > > information now via computer and even in small seldom visited ports, > > they are on the internet and everyone is linked together. If you piss > > one country off, it will be on your record and follow you forever. > > While I agree with Paul's overall point - there's pretty much no getting > away from The Man if he wants you - I do have to disagree with this > specific point: if this was true, then a large number of people that > have been kicked off one island or another down in the Caribbean would > never be allowed entry at any other port, and I personally guarantee you > that this is _not_ the case. I know of several boats that had to sneak > off in the middle of the night because the gendarmes were coming the > next morning, with questions ranging from missing property to rape and > robbery - but the fact that these scumbags managed to slide out in time > and just slip over to the next island in the chain meant that "when the > hook is up, all bills are paid." In addition, given that there are lots > of places all around the world where you can buy fake ID and many > countries, or even states, have no idea of what the > registration/ownership requirements are for any state or country other > than their own, there's still quite a lot you can "get away with". > > > The world is quickly changing and much different now than even a few > > years ago. All the small countries in the Pacific are now linked by > > computer and share data. > > OK. What happens if a vessel with nothing but Japanese markings shows up > at a remote Pacific island, and the crew only speak a remote dialect of > Abkhazian? What, exactly, will a village headman report, and would he > have any idea of what their registration (issued in Tbilisi, Georgia, > and filled out, dated, and signed in that language - but the headman > wouldn't know any of that) is supposed to look like? How can they, or > anyone within a few thousand miles, know it's not an Ossetian marriage > certificate? > > If you want to disappear, learning some remote - and preferably > unreadable to the average Joe - language, or at least an imitation of > it, may be a useful idea. I'm just sayin'. :) > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22850|22821|2010-03-19 19:42:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: New boat taxes|On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 11:28:06PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I remember sailing out of Mexico then giving the customs man in the > next atoll port,an English speaking country, my Zarpe in Spanish. Boy > was he confused. I offered him the use of my pocket translator, but he > declined, and cleared me in , no problem. Not that I have any personal experience with this, but buying an official-looking embossing stamp from an antiques store (the more curlicues, the better), and maybe some red sealing wax and ribbons, can come in very helpful at times. Or so I've heard. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22851|22801|2010-03-20 03:37:23|wild_explorer|Re: A.C. grounding?|Another link to visualize the subject http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats-electrical/web/isolation-transformer-for-ac-shore-power| 22852|22852|2010-03-20 04:55:33|tropical_breeze52|Keel coolers pros and cons?|I was looking through the files and noticed the keel cooler files and wanted to know some opions on them. I does worry my that there fixed to the inside of the keel as far as corosion goes and wondered if the cooling unit would work bolted on and use a thermal paste simlar to a computer CPU thermal paste so you could make the cooling unit and be able to remove it for maintance of are they not used other than in canels boats?| 22853|22821|2010-03-20 06:42:09|Denis Buggy|Re: New boat taxes|RE BOAT TAXES AND OTHER PROBLEMS if you confront any official who is even of average intelligence and you pretend to be Mongolian or Ossettian and he looks at a gringo with his Bob Dylan cds and Vancouver labels on all his clothes and the non use of the spell checker on his computer files -- expect an interesting few moments , and having presented EVIDENCE of another identity and culture you have slipped a noose around your own neck -and you may or may not detect a smile on the face of the officials depending on your level of intelligence ------------is it not curious that all the feeble minds are well south of Canada . ON A SERIOUS NOTE a lot of shipping is registered in Malta and Panama and other places are not so popular - there are constant references to boats not being for sale or rent in us waters on BOAT INTERNATIONAL MAGAZINE . many of these boats are registered in Georgetown . does anybody know what country can you safely register your boat legally in without problems as this would help somebody we all know being thrown in jail for a deplorable Mongolian accent. Denis Buggy PS would the person who wished to know more about the Bhlom and Voss seaplane and wished to check my sources send me his address to denis@... as I have not received it yet DB Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22854|22828|2010-03-20 21:08:37|arctichusky44|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I don't think I would rely on glue alone, without bolts. > > --- > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Up in tow boat country where I used to work , every second commercial vessel seems to have a steel hull with a alloy superstructure. They are either bolted on to a flange a few inches above deck with a nylon gasket or there is a vertical steel flange with the alloy house works dropped down on the outside of th and thru-bolted , again with a nylon spacer between. Using tefgel or some other isolating muck finishes the job. This has been standard practice in the industrial marine world for decades. Frank| 22855|22828|2010-03-21 00:16:30|tropical_breeze52|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|Sorry I meant to add bolts and insulation washers --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "arctichusky44" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I don't think I would rely on glue alone, without bolts. > > > > --- > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > Up in tow boat country where I used to work , every second commercial vessel seems to have a steel hull with a alloy superstructure. They are either bolted on to a flange a few inches above deck with a nylon gasket or there is a vertical steel flange with the alloy house works dropped down on the outside of th and thru-bolted , again with a nylon spacer between. Using tefgel or some other isolating muck finishes the job. This has been standard practice in the industrial marine world for decades. > Frank > | 22856|22828|2010-03-21 00:29:00|tropical_breeze52|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|Do you lose much strength by using aluminium as I could see the advantages as far as rust goes and also the weight factor do you gain a better maintance from doing it? Cheers H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I recently heard that it's good idea to fix your pilothouse a few inches above deck level, as that leads to less corrosion at the junction of steel and aluminium. Makes sense, as it would spend less time wet that way. I'd use a stainless strip for the upright part which the aluminium bolts on to, then use lots of rubber sheet, bushings , washers and caulking between the two , checking it with a multi meter with every bolt put in, to assure electrical isolation. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Earlier there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > | 22857|22821|2010-03-21 07:51:59|giuseppe bergmann|Re: New boat taxes|Just a brief question herefor from a sailor of the Med: A whole lot of people in Turkey, for example, run Wilmington/Delaware-registred vessels. This seems to be a nice idea for US-citicens (or Canadians...) as well, as the US-authorities definitely will not act different (means "worse") versus their residents than versus some tax-crook from overseas, will they? And some ornated stamps from Delaware will take significantly less fishy effects than those from South-Ossetia, Afghanistan (a landlocked country, by the way...) or Greece anyway. Michael ON A SERIOUS NOTE a lot of shipping is registered in Malta and Panama and other places are not so popular - there are constant references to boats not being for sale or rent in us waters on BOAT INTERNATIONAL MAGAZINE . many of these boats are registered in Georgetown . does anybody know what country can you safely register your boat legally in without problems as this would help somebody we all know being thrown in jail for a deplorable Mongolian accent. Denis Buggy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22858|22821|2010-03-21 11:07:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: New boat taxes|On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 11:51:36AM +0000, giuseppe bergmann wrote: > Just a brief question herefor from a sailor of the Med: > A whole lot of people in Turkey, for example, run > Wilmington/Delaware-registred vessels. > This seems to be a nice idea for US-citicens (or Canadians...) as > well, as the US-authorities definitely will not act different (means > "worse") versus their residents than versus some tax-crook from > overseas, will they? I want to be perfectly clear about this, so there's no mistake. Ready? Here it is: being a US-flagged vessel when stopped by the US Coast Guard outside the US waters is like going to prison, putting on lipstick, and dancing around while handing out Vaseline jars. Unless you're, say, an Israeli vessel being stopped by Arabs, I cannot imagine an invitation to worse treatment. The USCG usually acts polite and professional to sailors *in* continental US waters; they act the same to any foreign-flagged vessel in or out of the US. But US vessels outside those waters are automatically presumed to be criminals and treated that way. I've had several unpleasant (but admittedly not horrible) encounters with them; friends and acquaintance of mine have had 4" holes randomly and arbitrarily drilled all over their boats - in their cabinetry, through their frames, and in one case (in Long Bay, St. Thomas, USVI, while dozens of us watched from our boats) through his hull - and when his boat started sinking, they refused to help and told the guy to sue them. The boat sank there, at anchor. A 64-year-old friend of mine, a tiny, friendly old man sailing alone, was held naked, at gunpoint, on his foredeck in the tropical sun for over two hours while they tore his boat apart. He'd been living in Puerto Rico for over 20 years, had a business there, and was well known around Boqueron. Why?... because he was small and alone, and they were a bunch of 18-year-olds with guns and bullet-proof vests. No other reason that I, or anyone else, ever knew. Ready for the kicker? Your only appeal after that kind of treatment is to write to your congressman. Period. I know a couple of people who actually got some restitution that way - but the majority won't. > And some ornated stamps from Delaware will take significantly less > fishy effects than those from South-Ossetia, Afghanistan (a landlocked > country, by the way...) or Greece anyway. I strongly suspect that Denis has never met any Ossetians - southern or northern ones. I have, quite a few: I've been to (what was at that time) Soviet Georgia, several times. In fact, my niece is married to a Georgian (I'd bet a bottle of vodka against any American pronouncing his last name... :) His sneer about "gringos with Bob Dylan CDs" makes it clear that he knows nothing about the way these people look, or their habits, or their possessions. Why he would expect a customs official in some remote area to know more than he does is completely beyond me; perhaps his proposed line below which all intelligent life ends takes a northerly jink around his neighborhood. As to landlocked countries, there's absolutely no reason that a boat can't be home-ported out of one. I looked this up early on, after seeing a variety of boats home-ported out of Colorado and Montana, and they have a perfect right to do so. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22859|22852|2010-03-21 12:49:23|brentswain38|Re: Keel coolers pros and cons?|On one metal boat building site, a Port Townsend diesel mechanic was quoted as saying "If every one went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, we mechanics would all be out of work". Heat exchangers and wet exhausts are the main source of engine problems. There is an area the size of Texas between the mainland and Hawaii, that is a mass of floating plastic. Can you imagine trying to motor there with a seawater intake? It tends to have very light airs. As long as you use antifreeze in your keel cooler, there should be no need for maintenance. I've done zero maintenance on mine in 25 years. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > I was looking through the files and noticed the keel cooler files and wanted to know some opions on them. > I does worry my that there fixed to the inside of the keel as far as corosion goes and wondered if the cooling unit would work bolted on and use a thermal paste simlar to a computer CPU thermal paste so you could make the cooling unit and be able to remove it for maintance > of are they not used other than in canels boats? > | 22860|22828|2010-03-21 12:56:05|brentswain38|Re: aluminium pilot house concensus|I don't thin k you'd lose enough to matter. Any metal wheel house is grossly over strength compared to other materials. I'd use 3/16th or 4mm for the wheelhouse. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tropical_breeze52" wrote: > > Do you lose much strength by using aluminium as I could see the advantages as far as rust goes and also the weight factor do you gain a better maintance from doing it? > Cheers H > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > I recently heard that it's good idea to fix your pilothouse a few inches above deck level, as that leads to less corrosion at the junction of steel and aluminium. Makes sense, as it would spend less time wet that way. I'd use a stainless strip for the upright part which the aluminium bolts on to, then use lots of rubber sheet, bushings , washers and caulking between the two , checking it with a multi meter with every bolt put in, to assure electrical isolation. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Earlier there was a discussion on aluminum pilot house, but if I remember well there were no conclusion on the method to fix the pilot house to the steel deck. Since some have already built such pilot house could they tell us how they fixed their pilot house to the steel. > > > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > > > > | 22861|22821|2010-03-21 13:12:50|brentswain38|Re: New boat taxes|That is why I refuse to set foot in the US anymore. In Canada, the Supreme court of Canada has ruled that the Charter of Rights applies to everyone in Canada, regardless of nationality, with reasonable limits ( like immigration) The US Supreme court has ruled that for non US citizens they have no human rights whatever in the US, zero. Several Canadians have been stopped by the US government while passing thru, then sent to Syria to be tortured for a year. Our sucky Bush puppet government( and national embarrassment ) has done little to help them. Time for regime chance in Canada, before they embarrass us even further. Our "Bush Poodle" Prime minister invited the US coastguard into Canada for "Olympic Security" . I haven't encountered them , but if they try that once to often, expect a major confrontation with any of many Canadian nationalists. Expect some to go missing.They'd be wise to watch their backs . When New Zealand was enforcing goofy new rules for offshore yachts, the French said "Don't bother clearing out of New Zealand. Come to French territory, no clearance from your last port required." This is still the case. The French couldn't give a rats ass whether you bothered to clear out of your last port. Then you can use their clearance for the next port. Canada has never asked me for clearance from my last port and I've never offered it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 11:51:36AM +0000, giuseppe bergmann wrote: > > Just a brief question herefor from a sailor of the Med: > > A whole lot of people in Turkey, for example, run > > Wilmington/Delaware-registred vessels. > > This seems to be a nice idea for US-citicens (or Canadians...) as > > well, as the US-authorities definitely will not act different (means > > "worse") versus their residents than versus some tax-crook from > > overseas, will they? > > I want to be perfectly clear about this, so there's no mistake. Ready? > Here it is: being a US-flagged vessel when stopped by the US Coast Guard > outside the US waters is like going to prison, putting on lipstick, and > dancing around while handing out Vaseline jars. > > Unless you're, say, an Israeli vessel being stopped by Arabs, I cannot > imagine an invitation to worse treatment. The USCG usually acts polite > and professional to sailors *in* continental US waters; they act the > same to any foreign-flagged vessel in or out of the US. But US vessels > outside those waters are automatically presumed to be criminals and > treated that way. I've had several unpleasant (but admittedly not > horrible) encounters with them; friends and acquaintance of mine have > had 4" holes randomly and arbitrarily drilled all over their boats - in > their cabinetry, through their frames, and in one case (in Long Bay, St. > Thomas, USVI, while dozens of us watched from our boats) through his > hull - and when his boat started sinking, they refused to help and told > the guy to sue them. The boat sank there, at anchor. > > A 64-year-old friend of mine, a tiny, friendly old man sailing alone, was > held naked, at gunpoint, on his foredeck in the tropical sun for over > two hours while they tore his boat apart. He'd been living in Puerto > Rico for over 20 years, had a business there, and was well known around > Boqueron. Why?... because he was small and alone, and they were a bunch > of 18-year-olds with guns and bullet-proof vests. No other reason that > I, or anyone else, ever knew. > > Ready for the kicker? Your only appeal after that kind of treatment is > to write to your congressman. Period. I know a couple of people who > actually got some restitution that way - but the majority won't. > > > And some ornated stamps from Delaware will take significantly less > > fishy effects than those from South-Ossetia, Afghanistan (a landlocked > > country, by the way...) or Greece anyway. > > I strongly suspect that Denis has never met any Ossetians - southern or > northern ones. I have, quite a few: I've been to (what was at that time) > Soviet Georgia, several times. In fact, my niece is married to a > Georgian (I'd bet a bottle of vodka against any American pronouncing his > last name... :) His sneer about "gringos with Bob Dylan CDs" makes it > clear that he knows nothing about the way these people look, or their > habits, or their possessions. Why he would expect a customs official in > some remote area to know more than he does is completely beyond me; > perhaps his proposed line below which all intelligent life ends takes a > northerly jink around his neighborhood. > > As to landlocked countries, there's absolutely no reason that a boat > can't be home-ported out of one. I looked this up early on, after seeing > a variety of boats home-ported out of Colorado and Montana, and they > have a perfect right to do so. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22862|22862|2010-03-21 13:25:53|brentswain38|Anchoring fees|The Town of Ladysmith BC is talking about charging anchoring fees , like Nanaimo. Cowichan Bay is making similar noises. The sickness is spreading. Yesterday, I was talkin to a friend, who knows enough about the law to have sued a large corporation, representing himself, and won handily. He said they were considering charging anchoring fees in Pirates cove Marine Park. He told them "When you collect a fee for an anchorage you extend your liability to the anchorage, and can be sued should an anchor drag , foul, damage a bow roller ,injure someone trying to unfoul it, dammage a bowsprit, winch , or if anyone should ding a prop or bend a shaft on floating debris ,after having paid the anchoring fee." You are taking reponsibility for the anchorage being suitable for what you are charging for. Perhaps such a successful lawsuit would put the matter to death for along time. Perhaps a 'Wrongful death " suit for forcing a live aboard into the ranks of the homeless , resulting in an early death, would cost millions, and make them back off quickly. Fees are simply a way of getting the poor out of the way of the rich.| 22863|22821|2010-03-21 17:33:42|giuseppe bergmann|Re: New boat taxes|Oooops ... This Delaware-idea of mine wasn't AT ANY RATE meant as a proposual to risk seemingly average authority-treatment by USCG ... Looks pretty much like it might be a very nice alternative to better cope with the Turkish Junta, caitiff Eritrean buccaneers, Greek harbour-tellers or intrest-enslaved French fishermen off Cote d'Ivoire ...  Jesus! Are those excrable paranoic rifle-addicts in uniform really THAT bad? What happened to the American dream, turning it inside out into an American nightmare of those epic dimensions? Could not have been just this compliable mouthpiece of 'big oil' George-double-You whom Dick the Prick Cheney set up with several hundred sharky lawyers and some help of one more corrupt bro' down in Florida these days, eh? We definitely do have our share of the paranoiac breed over here in Europe, secretaries of state not inhibiting torture and ravishment for NATO-reasons, and what Brent called a 'poodle' pretending to rule an independent and reunited Germany, warmongers as functinaries by the dozen not only with the defence-department, lots of racists in uniforms, diplomates with literally no idea of what they should represent when it comes to the historic resposibility of Germany and the Germans for any fugitive and displaced person wherever around this world ... My Grandpa told me they took really heavy hikes to ensure themselves as prisoners of war with the American forces instead of getting into hold of British, French or even Sovjet Troops back in 1945. What happened to this noble mindset of America? The - given impressive- manned flying criticism against skyscraping capitalist architecture in nine-eleven could not have done this alone. What You (and some other Americans within some other lists I'm reading as well) repeatedly write about customs and USCG frightens me. I had in mind to sail by and see what changes will occur to the U.S. under Barack Hussein Obama, but I'm not at all sure anymore. What a pity. M. --- Ben Okopnik schrieb am So, 21.3.2010: Von: Ben Okopnik Betreff: Re: [origamiboats] Re: New boat taxes An: "Origami Boat list" Datum: Sonntag, 21. März, 2010 16:06 Uhr   On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 11:51:36AM +0000, giuseppe bergmann wrote: > Just a brief question herefor from a sailor of the Med: > A whole lot of people in Turkey, for example, run > Wilmington/Delaware -registred vessels. > This seems to be a nice idea for US-citicens (or Canadians... ) as > well, as the US-authorities definitely will not act different (means > "worse") versus their residents than versus some tax-crook from > overseas, will they? I want to be perfectly clear about this, so there's no mistake. Ready? Here it is: being a US-flagged vessel when stopped by the US Coast Guard outside the US waters is like going to prison, putting on lipstick, and dancing around while handing out Vaseline jars. Unless you're, say, an Israeli vessel being stopped by Arabs, I cannot imagine an invitation to worse treatment. The USCG usually acts polite and professional to sailors *in* continental US waters; they act the same to any foreign-flagged vessel in or out of the US. But US vessels outside those waters are automatically presumed to be criminals and treated that way. I've had several unpleasant (but admittedly not horrible) encounters with them; friends and acquaintance of mine have had 4" holes randomly and arbitrarily drilled all over their boats - in their cabinetry, through their frames, and in one case (in Long Bay, St. Thomas, USVI, while dozens of us watched from our boats) through his hull - and when his boat started sinking, they refused to help and told the guy to sue them. The boat sank there, at anchor. A 64-year-old friend of mine, a tiny, friendly old man sailing alone, was held naked, at gunpoint, on his foredeck in the tropical sun for over two hours while they tore his boat apart. He'd been living in Puerto Rico for over 20 years, had a business there, and was well known around Boqueron. Why?... because he was small and alone, and they were a bunch of 18-year-olds with guns and bullet-proof vests. No other reason that I, or anyone else, ever knew. Ready for the kicker? Your only appeal after that kind of treatment is to write to your congressman. Period. I know a couple of people who actually got some restitution that way - but the majority won't. > And some ornated stamps from Delaware will take significantly less > fishy effects than those from South-Ossetia, Afghanistan (a landlocked > country, by the way...) or Greece anyway. I strongly suspect that Denis has never met any Ossetians - southern or northern ones. I have, quite a few: I've been to (what was at that time) Soviet Georgia, several times. In fact, my niece is married to a Georgian (I'd bet a bottle of vodka against any American pronouncing his last name... :) His sneer about "gringos with Bob Dylan CDs" makes it clear that he knows nothing about the way these people look, or their habits, or their possessions. Why he would expect a customs official in some remote area to know more than he does is completely beyond me; perhaps his proposed line below which all intelligent life ends takes a northerly jink around his neighborhood. As to landlocked countries, there's absolutely no reason that a boat can't be home-ported out of one. I looked this up early on, after seeing a variety of boats home-ported out of Colorado and Montana, and they have a perfect right to do so. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik. com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22864|22852|2010-03-21 20:17:33|kingsknight4life|Re: Keel coolers pros and cons?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: " > There is an area the size of Texas between the mainland and Hawaii, that is a mass of floating plastic. Can you imagine trying to motor there with a seawater intake? It tends to have very light airs. "> Brent I've heard that too but I also heard on a sailing site that the "plastic island" is a myth? The anchoring police on Vanc. Island is a bummer to say the least. rowland | 22865|22852|2010-03-21 21:48:22|Ben Okopnik|Re: Keel coolers pros and cons?|On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 12:16:54AM -0000, kingsknight4life wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > " > > There is an area the size of Texas between the mainland and > > Hawaii, that is a mass of floating plastic. Can you imagine > > trying to motor there with a seawater intake? It tends to have > > very light airs. > "> > Brent > I've heard that too but I also heard on a sailing site that the > "plastic island" is a myth? The anchoring police on Vanc. Island is a > bummer to say the least. The one in the Atlantic certainly isn't a myth: I've sailed through the edges of it on my way from the BVIs to Bermuda. The floating mass of crap - most of it from Africa, as far as I could tell from the labeling on the bottles and such - looked endless. It took me two days to get through it, and I'm glad I didn't need to turn my prop during that time. I can't see why the Pacific would be any better off. People have been using the ocean as their garbage disposal for a long time - and it was just fine as long as we were just dumping organics and things that would eventually deteriorate. Most plastic floats *and* stays around for many, many years. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22866|22852|2010-03-21 23:40:06|Carl Anderson|2 winches for sale|I've got two Andersen 16 (2 speed) winches for sale. New in 2008 (replaced with self-tailing ones). I'm on Lopez Island right now. Carl sv-mom.com| 22867|22867|2010-03-22 02:26:25|wild_explorer|Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Most modern sailboats use 25-40 HP engines for 35-40 foot sailboats. some people think bigger engine is better. After some research I came up with this: http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats-engine/web/choosing-engine-power I will appreciate sharing reasons for a decision on YOUR engine's power (besides "I got a good deal on this engine"). Or comments on my information.| 22868|22867|2010-03-22 05:23:03|David Frantz|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Sizing the motor for hull speed is one thing and is fine if the motor is exclusive to driving the shaft. It gets tricker if you are also using the motor for other things. Add a large alternator for charging and electrical loads and you end up burning power. Same thing when a hyd pump is added. Each of these loads the engine even when it is not in use. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 22, 2010, at 2:26 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > Most modern sailboats use 25-40 HP engines for 35-40 foot sailboats. > some people think bigger engine is better. After some research I > came up with this: > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats-engine/web/choosing-engine-power > > I will appreciate sharing reasons for a decision on YOUR engine's > power (besides "I got a good deal on this engine"). Or comments on > my information. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22869|22869|2010-03-22 10:57:01|SHANE ROTHWELL|Keel Cooler pros & cons|Hey Brent, Antifreeze wears out. the PH falls & it gets acidic. They guys in the industry say when it gets to PH7.5 change it. PH 7.0 change it yesterday. I leaned the hard way with an old ford truck that ate a 2nd heater core in about 6 months. asking why I was told abotu the antifreeze acidifying & chang4ed the antifreeze pronto (it was down to 6.8, no wonder it ate heater cores). Ph strips from the pharmacy are cheap & real easy. theres a bloke in ladysmith who recycles antifreeze for reasonable prices ($..65-/$.75/litre mixed?) and for the quantities needed in a keel cooler it will make a big differance as theres a good volume in a keel isn't there? Its the heat that makes the stuff go off. Re: Keel coolers pros and cons? Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:49 am (PDT) On one metal boat building site, a Port Townsend diesel mechanic was quoted as saying "If every one went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, we mechanics would all be out of work". Heat exchangers and wet exhausts are the main source of engine problems. There is an area the size of Texas between the mainland and Hawaii, that is a mass of floating plastic. Can you imagine trying to motor there with a seawater intake? It tends to have very light airs. As long as you use antifreeze in your keel cooler, there should be no need for maintenance. I've done zero maintenance on mine in 25 years. __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/| 22870|22821|2010-03-22 11:25:06|scott|Re: New boat taxes|This happens but most of the time you are not going to get hammered like this by the coast guard.. it's not so endemic that it happens all the time. Unfortunately the coast guard is made up of human beings and they are given missions that require a lot of judgment to carry out appropriately. As Ben said you get some young 18 to 24 year olds sometimes that their enthusiasm overrides their common sense. In their defense though... up till the current wars around the world the coast guard saw more action than any other military branch in the US and still do see a lot of action. We don't hear about it a lot but they are never sure when they pull up to someone on the water if they are going to end up in a shoot out with drug runners out of south America etc... I think that with some of them it leaves them more viewing everyone as a potential danger to themselves when they pull them over than as a routine check etc... It lends itself to overreaction on the side of the Coast Guard in some situations. To be honest we see this in most of our myriad law enforcement agency's. I would recommend that anyone that this happens to do their best to obtain legal representation and pursue it. It needs to be addressed so that it happens less in the future. When it does happen getting redress sometimes is hard. Not, because your not entitled to redress but because it is so hard to find out what channel to use to get redress. Or to get a toe hold in the system to get someone to listen to you. Sadly justice in the US is more of a "how much justice can you afford". Not because it is corrupt but more of how indifferent the system is. It is almost impossible to redress a grievance against someone without good legal representation simply to guide you through the navigation and rules of the justice system. Also it is amazing how if you try to talk to a judge in court for yourself you are marginalized because you don't speak the same language as the judge.. An example of this we recently saw was a young lady have to go to court to defend herself against charges of assault.. (she did it and was guilty as hell but that isn't the point of the story) She thought she could defend herself and refused court appointed counsel. During the hearing she tried to have some testimony thrown out that technically should have been thrown out if it was correctly protested, however she didn't protest it correctly. She had watched to many tv court/crime shows. The other side of the case had an attorney appointed by the court that they accepted and that attorney did exactly what the first girl had attempted and failed to do, because he knew how to do it. Now in many situations a judge might have been nice to the first girl and even thought she didn't know how to correctly ask for what she was asking let her have it. In this case she had given the judge a lot of attitude and he wasn't inclined to do more than what he had to meet the requirements of law in his courtroom for her. The point is that no judge has to do more for you than meet the procedural requirements in their courtroom. If you find one that will go beyond that then your having a good day. A lawyer knows all the stuff you don't so that you can get a fair chance. Is this right.. not in my opinion but it is how it works. and from what I have heard from people all over the world it is about the average anywhere you go.. you need someone that speaks the language of that particular judicial system to intermediate for you to get the best results. a judge is much more likely to go the extra mile for a lawyer that he knows and respects in his courtroom than for a stranger that he doesn't know that has trouble articulating what he wants from the judge. To the judge, unless he is an amazing person it is just a job after he has been doing it for a few years and most of the people he has in front of him are on average true scumbags and this affects his perceptions over time. I have found that in my dealings with the judicial system that neat dress, extreme courtesy/politeness and doing your best to make the judge and court blink and see you as a real person that they can emphasize with to be of extreme importance. If you can get them to stop seeing you as just the next case and as a real person that they can identify with you will get more than just indifferent procedure. The lawyer most of the time already has that with the judge so can bring that relationship to the courtroom on your behalf. Again, not right, but it is most of the time, reality. The US is a large country with many states with differing laws and then a mish mash of federal laws that apply everywhere. The bureaucracy is frighteningly large and trying to find out who to go to for what is sometimes bewildering. For the average citizen doing average normal things it works pretty well most of the time as everyone kinda knows how that is supposed to work. When you step out of that rut and do something different such as live on a boat you start to run into a lot of uncertainty because most officials don't have any clue as to how you fit into their little bureaucratic world. You probably know more about how the law applies to you than they do in your situation as you live in it and to them you are an exception to how their world works. Or the flip side is that there are really silly laws that are on the books that they know about that they can apply to you that you have never heard of. I think what people would like even more than lower taxes etc.. is a simplification of their dealings with the government. More clarity in what is required and less paper work in trying to provide it. Corruption and bribery on the level of the average citizen dealing with just about any US or State government body is almost never seen. In my 43 years I have never been asked for a bribe and have known that if I offered one to a government official, cop or general state employee that I would probably go to jail. This holds true for 97% of the people I know that relate with the government. That is one of the nice things about the US. however the incredibly bewildering thicket of regulations, taxes and paper work will make your head spin. It is also very demoralizing when you realize how impersonally any of the bureaucracy's of local, state or federal government view you. An example of this is that I got married in August.. that wasn't that bad bureaucracy wise.. 25 dollar license if I remember right with both of us having to go to the courthouse to apply for it. My wife is resident of a different state than I am.. so we finally get around to changing her drivers license to here. We couldn't do it. She didn't meet any of the requirements from the Department of Motor Vehicles to make her a resident of South Carolina. Even though we were both there with a marriage license showing she was married to me and me with a local drivers license. She doesn't have any bills or bank statements from approved businesses coming to our address in her name. the mortgage is in my name so hers isn't on it. etc. etc. It is very frustrating at moments like that. end result is that it will take about 30 days for us to get a bill with her name on it to prove she lives here so we can try again. :) Enough of this :) life is good and plan to spend a good chunk of it dealing with stupid paperwork. Other than that go sailing!| 22871|22821|2010-03-22 11:35:26|scott|Re: New boat taxes|Just to be fair... for every bad thing that has happened to someone in relation to the USCG.. I would be willing to be that they have also risked their lives pulling someone to safety in life threating conditions. It's never all black or white..| 22872|22869|2010-03-22 14:20:09|Paul Wilson|Re: Keel Cooler pros & cons|How do you measure the PH? Cheers, Paul SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hey Brent, > > Antifreeze wears out. the PH falls & it gets acidic. They guys in the > industry say when it gets to PH7.5 change it. PH 7.0 change it > yesterday. I leaned the hard way with an old ford truck that ate a 2nd > heater core in about 6 months. asking why I was told abotu the > antifreeze acidifying & chang4ed the antifreeze pronto (it was down to > 6.8, no wonder it ate heater cores). Ph strips from the pharmacy are > cheap & real easy. > > theres a bloke in ladysmith who recycles antifreeze for reasonable > prices ($..65-/$.75/litre mixed?) and for the quantities needed in a > keel cooler it will make a big differance as theres a good volume in a > keel isn't there? Its the heat that makes the stuff go off. > > Re: Keel coolers pros and cons? > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... > brentswain38 > Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:49 am (PDT) > > On one metal boat building site, a Port Townsend diesel mechanic was > quoted as saying "If every one went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, > we mechanics would all be out of work". Heat exchangers and wet > exhausts are the main source of engine problems. > There is an area the size of Texas between the mainland and Hawaii, > that is a mass of floating plastic. Can you imagine trying to motor > there with a seawater intake? It tends to have very light airs. > As long as you use antifreeze in your keel cooler, there should be no > need for maintenance. I've done zero maintenance on mine in 25 years. > > __________________________________________________________ > The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for > Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at > http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ > > > | 22873|22869|2010-03-22 15:26:42|tropical_breeze52|Re: Keel Cooler pros & cons|The Ph is very easy you can buy paper strips to check this but I am not sure what the Ph level you would need exaclty fot steel as most engines as iron or aluminium. Snap on also have a unit that you can use. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > How do you measure the PH? > Cheers, Paul > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Hey Brent, > > > > Antifreeze wears out. the PH falls & it gets acidic. They guys in the > > industry say when it gets to PH7.5 change it. PH 7.0 change it > > yesterday. I leaned the hard way with an old ford truck that ate a 2nd > > heater core in about 6 months. asking why I was told abotu the > > antifreeze acidifying & chang4ed the antifreeze pronto (it was down to > > 6.8, no wonder it ate heater cores). Ph strips from the pharmacy are > > cheap & real easy. > > > > theres a bloke in ladysmith who recycles antifreeze for reasonable > > prices ($..65-/$.75/litre mixed?) and for the quantities needed in a > > keel cooler it will make a big differance as theres a good volume in a > > keel isn't there? Its the heat that makes the stuff go off. > > > > Re: Keel coolers pros and cons? > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... > > brentswain38 > > Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:49 am (PDT) > > > > On one metal boat building site, a Port Townsend diesel mechanic was > > quoted as saying "If every one went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, > > we mechanics would all be out of work". Heat exchangers and wet > > exhausts are the main source of engine problems. > > There is an area the size of Texas between the mainland and Hawaii, > > that is a mass of floating plastic. Can you imagine trying to motor > > there with a seawater intake? It tends to have very light airs. > > As long as you use antifreeze in your keel cooler, there should be no > > need for maintenance. I've done zero maintenance on mine in 25 years. > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for > > Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at > > http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ > > > > > > > | 22874|22867|2010-03-22 15:31:05|Paul Wilson|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|I agree, a large alternator can easily use 3 horsepower or more. When I turn on my 100A alternator, I can hear it load the engine down, particularly when I am running the engine at low rpms The charts for resistance or hp relative to hull length (hull speed) are far too simplistic, in my opinion. Different hulls will have a different shape of curve which can vary widely so saying you get little gain in speed for an increase in hp is a generalization. I think if you keep an engine small using the logic based on your chart, you will be disappointed. For example, I have a 35 hp (90 cu in) Isuzu on my 36 footer. It delivers about 30 hp at the max (governed) 2800 rpm. To power at 6 knots in flat calm, I am guessing I probably use about 9 to 10 hp. This is reality versus theory. With the alternator going, make it 13 hp. However, when powering into nasty headwinds or waves, trying to get through a pass against strong current, etc, I probably use every bit of the hp available. Practically, I think I would probably be OK with a 25 hp engine, but certainly like the extra power when you need to get out of a bad situation or just get home before dark. Based on my experience, 35 hp seems to me about right and not really overkill. If the price was right and I could make it fit, I wouldn't turn a larger engine away. Finally, I have been told it's better to use engine displacement rather than hp as a quick way to compare engines. Yanmar is great for advertising hp at very high (3000 +) rpms where no one runs them. It's misleading advertising in my opinion. Ideally, you should look at the engine displacement (or hp for given rpm), match the torque curve for the intended cruise rpm and then combine that with the the gear ratio and prop efficiency as well. There are some old threads in the group as well as entire books written on this subject. Cheers, Paul David Frantz wrote: > > > Sizing the motor for hull speed is one thing and is fine if the motor > is exclusive to driving the shaft. It gets tricker if you are also > using the motor for other things. Add a large alternator for charging > and electrical loads and you end up burning power. Same thing when a > hyd pump is added. Each of these loads the engine even when it is not > in use. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Mar 22, 2010, at 2:26 AM, wild_explorer > > wrote: > > > Most modern sailboats use 25-40 HP engines for 35-40 foot sailboats. > > some people think bigger engine is better. After some research I > > came up with this: > > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats-engine/web/choosing-engine-power > > > > > I will appreciate sharing reasons for a decision on YOUR engine's > > power (besides "I got a good deal on this engine"). Or comments on > > my information. > > > > | 22875|22821|2010-03-22 15:47:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: New boat taxes|On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 03:32:06PM -0000, scott wrote: > Just to be fair... for every bad thing that has happened to someone in > relation to the USCG.. I would be willing to be that they have also > risked their lives pulling someone to safety in life threating > conditions. This is true enough - I saw a USCG vessel, possibly carrying some of the same scumbags Coasties who destroyed that poor sailor's boat, go out toward the end of a hurricane to (successfully) rescue the crew of a sinking freighter to the north of the VIs. It was still blowing 70+ steady at the time. However, this excuses nothing. If you or I rescued kitties from every tree, gave money to all charities within reach, and helped old ladies across the street, but had a habit of knifing, e.g., bank presidents, we'd still be murderers. The USCG is supposed to serve the United States - and no matter how finely you split that hair, that *cannot* mean being rude, overbearing, and arrogant toward even a single one of its citizens. In addition, because they _are_ entrusted with weapons by the mandate given to them by the people of this country, they bear an extra responsibility: they must be *more* polite than the average. This is a large part of what professionalism means. The stateside USCG usually understands and lives up to these principles - and they risk their lives just as often, or more so, than those on foreign duty. There's no reason and no excuse for that kind of behavior by the USCG _anywhere_ - no matter how much risk they may or may not take. The risks are part of the job; so is professional behavior. I'm a US Army veteran, and I know this one from the inside. This is *why* this kind of belligerent arrogance infuriates me: I know what constitutes honorable behavior for a military man. What they're doing attacks the very basis on which civilized societies are built. > It's never all black or white.. Well, no. Nothing ever is. But the adherence of the military to professional standards must come as close as possible to "black and white" perfection; otherwise, there's no difference between them and the thugs that they're supposed to protect us against. Have you ever read up on 16th century Europe - Thirty Years war, or right around that period? What life was like in, say, Germany, or Czechoslovakia around that time? That's what happens when the distinction between the military and the thugs gets eroded. Trust me - you *don't* want to live in that hell. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22876|22867|2010-03-22 16:01:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 08:27:48AM +1300, Paul Wilson wrote: > I agree, a large alternator can easily use 3 horsepower or more. Just for a rough guess, for Paul's situation, you could call it 16V (pre-regulation) times 100A - i.e., 1.6kW - and add (a generous) 50% for losses - i.e., 2.4kW. At 750W/HP, that gives you just over 3HP. Easy enough to refigure for any alternator. > For example, I have a 35 hp (90 cu in) Isuzu on my 36 footer. It > delivers about 30 hp at the max (governed) 2800 rpm. To power at 6 > knots in flat calm, I am guessing I probably use about 9 to 10 hp. This > is reality versus theory. With the alternator going, make it 13 hp. > However, when powering into nasty headwinds or waves, trying to get > through a pass against strong current, etc, I probably use every bit of > the hp available. That's one of those times when you might really appreciate a field cut-off switch on your alternator. :) That extra 3HP just might make enough of a difference! -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22877|22869|2010-03-22 21:44:29|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Keel Cooler pros & cons|Paul, It's pH, and I measure it all the time in my job. The scale is 0-14, a pH of 7 is considered neutral. However in very pure water like RO permeate, a pH of 7 is quite aggressive. If you have metal pipes you'll taste the metal! It's also a logarithmic scale, the number is actually the exponent, so a 6 is 10 times lower than a 7. I've worked with digital pH probes and the various paper strips that work by color change. The strips correlate very well with a properly calibrated digital probe. What you have to realize is that a the strips take from a few seconds to as much as 10 MINUTES to finally stabilize and show the correct value! I had a customer using strips telling me that our RO produced water at a pH of 5. When the strips were allowed to stabilize it showed a 7, exactly what my properly calibrated digital showed. Iron and steel won't rust in a pH of about 8 or above. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Keel Cooler pros & cons > How do you measure the PH? > Cheers, Paul > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: >> >> Hey Brent, >> >> Antifreeze wears out. the PH falls & it gets acidic. They guys in the >> industry say when it gets to PH7.5 change it. PH 7.0 change it >> yesterday. I leaned the hard way with an old ford truck that ate a 2nd >> heater core in about 6 months. asking why I was told abotu the >> antifreeze acidifying & chang4ed the antifreeze pronto (it was down to >> 6.8, no wonder it ate heater cores). Ph strips from the pharmacy are >> cheap & real easy. >> >> theres a bloke in ladysmith who recycles antifreeze for reasonable >> prices ($..65-/$.75/litre mixed?) and for the quantities needed in a >> keel cooler it will make a big differance as theres a good volume in a >> keel isn't there? Its the heat that makes the stuff go off. >> >> Re: Keel coolers pros and cons? >> Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... >> brentswain38 >> Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:49 am (PDT) >> >> On one metal boat building site, a Port Townsend diesel mechanic was >> quoted as saying "If every one went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, >> we mechanics would all be out of work". Heat exchangers and wet >> exhausts are the main source of engine problems. >> There is an area the size of Texas between the mainland and Hawaii, >> that is a mass of floating plastic. Can you imagine trying to motor >> there with a seawater intake? It tends to have very light airs. >> As long as you use antifreeze in your keel cooler, there should be no >> need for maintenance. I've done zero maintenance on mine in 25 years. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for >> Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at >> http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 22878|22821|2010-03-22 23:37:54|brentswain38|Re: New boat taxes|Good post Ben. I'm sure in wartime NAZI Germany, there were probably Gestapo who helped little old ladies across streets. The same little old ladies would have said "Don't believe anything bad you hear about the Gestapo. They are really nice guys ,in my experience." --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 03:32:06PM -0000, scott wrote: > > Just to be fair... for every bad thing that has happened to someone in > > relation to the USCG.. I would be willing to be that they have also > > risked their lives pulling someone to safety in life threating > > conditions. > > This is true enough - I saw a USCG vessel, possibly carrying some of the > same scumbags Coasties who destroyed that poor sailor's > boat, go out toward the end of a hurricane to (successfully) rescue the > crew of a sinking freighter to the north of the VIs. It was still > blowing 70+ steady at the time. > > However, this excuses nothing. If you or I rescued kitties from every > tree, gave money to all charities within reach, and helped old ladies > across the street, but had a habit of knifing, e.g., bank presidents, > we'd still be murderers. The USCG is supposed to serve the United States > - and no matter how finely you split that hair, that *cannot* mean being > rude, overbearing, and arrogant toward even a single one of its > citizens. In addition, because they _are_ entrusted with weapons by the > mandate given to them by the people of this country, they bear an extra > responsibility: they must be *more* polite than the average. This is a > large part of what professionalism means. > > The stateside USCG usually understands and lives up to these principles > - and they risk their lives just as often, or more so, than those on > foreign duty. There's no reason and no excuse for that kind of behavior > by the USCG _anywhere_ - no matter how much risk they may or may not > take. The risks are part of the job; so is professional behavior. > > I'm a US Army veteran, and I know this one from the inside. This is > *why* this kind of belligerent arrogance infuriates me: I know what > constitutes honorable behavior for a military man. What they're doing > attacks the very basis on which civilized societies are built. > > > It's never all black or white.. > > Well, no. Nothing ever is. But the adherence of the military to > professional standards must come as close as possible to "black and > white" perfection; otherwise, there's no difference between them and the > thugs that they're supposed to protect us against. > > Have you ever read up on 16th century Europe - Thirty Years war, or > right around that period? What life was like in, say, Germany, or > Czechoslovakia around that time? That's what happens when the > distinction between the military and the thugs gets eroded. Trust me - > you *don't* want to live in that hell. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22879|22852|2010-03-22 23:44:28|brentswain38|Re: Keel coolers pros and cons?|Friends anchored next to me here said the sea of Japan was a sea of plastic bags. I've met no shortage of cruisers who have fried their engines in many areas by plastic bags plugging the intake. Doesn't happen with keel coolers. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > " > > There is an area the size of Texas between the mainland and Hawaii, that is a mass of floating plastic. Can you imagine trying to motor there with a seawater intake? It tends to have very light airs. > "> > Brent > I've heard that too but I also heard on a sailing site that the "plastic island" is a myth? The anchoring police on Vanc. Island is a bummer to say the least. > rowland > | 22880|22821|2010-03-22 23:51:51|brentswain38|Re: New boat taxes|They should face some consequences when they screw up, or make total asses of themselves , just like the rest of us.No one should have the legal authority to trash someone's home any time they happen to be in a bad mood. In Canada they need a search warrant just to enter your living quarters,whether ashore or afloat, just like any home ashore. . Violate that and they can end up with a lien on their wages, bank account, pensions, etc. That is the case in any civilized country. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "scott" wrote: > > Just to be fair... for every bad thing that has happened to someone in relation to the USCG.. I would be willing to be that they have also risked their lives pulling someone to safety in life threating conditions. > > It's never all black or white.. > | 22881|22869|2010-03-23 00:11:41|Gord Schnell|Re: Keel Cooler pros & cons|Hi Paul Litmus paper is the old, easiest and cheapest way to measure pH. There are small handheld electronic units, but you would need to use it regularly to make it worth the purchase. Gord Schnell On 22-Mar-10, at 11:20 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > How do you measure the PH? > Cheers, Paul > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: >> >> Hey Brent, >> >> Antifreeze wears out. the PH falls & it gets acidic. They guys in the >> industry say when it gets to PH7.5 change it. PH 7.0 change it >> yesterday. I leaned the hard way with an old ford truck that ate a >> 2nd >> heater core in about 6 months. asking why I was told abotu the >> antifreeze acidifying & chang4ed the antifreeze pronto (it was down >> to >> 6.8, no wonder it ate heater cores). Ph strips from the pharmacy are >> cheap & real easy. >> >> theres a bloke in ladysmith who recycles antifreeze for reasonable >> prices ($..65-/$.75/litre mixed?) and for the quantities needed in a >> keel cooler it will make a big differance as theres a good volume >> in a >> keel isn't there? Its the heat that makes the stuff go off. >> >> Re: Keel coolers pros and cons? >> Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... >> brentswain38 >> Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:49 am (PDT) >> >> On one metal boat building site, a Port Townsend diesel mechanic was >> quoted as saying "If every one went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, >> we mechanics would all be out of work". Heat exchangers and wet >> exhausts are the main source of engine problems. >> There is an area the size of Texas between the mainland and Hawaii, >> that is a mass of floating plastic. Can you imagine trying to motor >> there with a seawater intake? It tends to have very light airs. >> As long as you use antifreeze in your keel cooler, there should be no >> need for maintenance. I've done zero maintenance on mine in 25 years. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for >> Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at >> http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22882|22867|2010-03-23 01:47:17|wild_explorer|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Thanks, I will add 5HP for "utilities" load. Alternator could be disabled when not in use. Hydrolic pump - probably not, if it does not have a clutch for pump's drive pulley. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Sizing the motor for hull speed is one thing and is fine if the motor > is exclusive to driving the shaft. It gets tricker if you are also > using the motor for other things. Add a large alternator for charging > and electrical loads and you end up burning power. Same thing when a > hyd pump is added. Each of these loads the engine even when it is not > in use. | 22883|22867|2010-03-23 01:59:18|wild_explorer|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|I agree, this data is for pushing the hull under ideal conditions, assuming that engine, gearbox and propeller transfer all (~95-98%) of the power to push the hull. I believe, that chart is used to estimate sail area for a rig as well. It looks like 30-40 HP engine is a good choice for 36-40 footer. But if someone has 15HP outboard engine, it will be "good enough" for a limited time when person can afford bigger permanent engine and use outboard motor as "emergency backup". --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > Ideally, you should look at the > engine displacement (or hp for given rpm), match the torque curve for > the intended cruise rpm and then combine that with the the gear ratio > and prop efficiency as well. There are some old threads in the group as > well as entire books written on this subject. > > Cheers, Paul | 22884|22867|2010-03-23 10:48:09|David Frantz|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|If that is what your utility loads require thenthat is what should be added. A word of warning though diesels like to run at full load at least some of the time. Oversizing an engine doesn't do any good either. As to the pump and alternator and disabling them it is a design problem as far as I can tell. One could add a clutch or coupling to deal with the unwanted load. That would be for the HYD pump, I'm not sure you would want to bother with the alternator. There are a couple of reasons in my mind for keeping the alternator working. One is the likely hood that there will always be something connected that would use the energy. The second is that the alternator wouldn't provide a huge load to the motor unloaded. Simple hyd systems however are another story. The pumps use significant energy when dumping across a relief valve. There are alternatives of course such as variable displacement pumps but that is an entirely different discussion. A clutch or other disconnecting mechanism is a cheaper solution. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 23, 2010, at 1:47 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > Thanks, I will add 5HP for "utilities" load. Alternator could be > disabled when not in use. Hydrolic pump - probably not, if it does > not have a clutch for pump's drive pulley. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > wrote: >> >> Sizing the motor for hull speed is one thing and is fine if the motor >> is exclusive to driving the shaft. It gets tricker if you are also >> using the motor for other things. Add a large alternator for >> charging >> and electrical loads and you end up burning power. Same thing when a >> hyd pump is added. Each of these loads the engine even when it is >> not >> in use. > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22885|22867|2010-03-23 13:25:16|Denis Buggy|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|RE DISCONNECT FOR ALT AND PUMP if you think it is required you can buy a free wheeling hub for your alt which is activated by your regulator or in the case of your bmw car by the throttle in order to give you max power only when you accelerate rapidly it also cuts of the power steering pump to do the same job model 520d ---2004 on I would not bother with any of this trickery as you do not need it and when your battery is charged to 13.8 volts in a 12 volt system the regulator says enough is enough and the load is taken off the alt until the regulator senses the voltage has dropped . be careful with the hydraulic pump as most marine gearboxes have an internal pump for holding the drive plates together --- check the use of yours before disconnecting -- any loss of high pressure oil can cause dermatitis when it goes into the skin be careful . denis buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: David Frantz To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer If that is what your utility loads require thenthat is what should be added. A word of warning though diesels like to run at full load at least some of the time. Oversizing an engine doesn't do any good either. As to the pump and alternator and disabling them it is a design problem as far as I can tell. One could add a clutch or coupling to deal with the unwanted load. That would be for the HYD pump, I'm not sure you would want to bother with the alternator. There are a couple of reasons in my mind for keeping the alternator working. One is the likely hood that there will always be something connected that would use the energy. The second is that the alternator wouldn't provide a huge load to the motor unloaded. Simple hyd systems however are another story. The pumps use significant energy when dumping across a relief valve. There are alternatives of course such as variable displacement pumps but that is an entirely different discussion. A clutch or other disconnecting mechanism is a cheaper solution. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 23, 2010, at 1:47 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > Thanks, I will add 5HP for "utilities" load. Alternator could be > disabled when not in use. Hydrolic pump - probably not, if it does > not have a clutch for pump's drive pulley. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > wrote: >> >> Sizing the motor for hull speed is one thing and is fine if the motor >> is exclusive to driving the shaft. It gets tricker if you are also >> using the motor for other things. Add a large alternator for >> charging >> and electrical loads and you end up burning power. Same thing when a >> hyd pump is added. Each of these loads the engine even when it is >> not >> in use. > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22886|22867|2010-03-23 14:21:20|wild_explorer|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|You right. Choosing engine is not just simple HP rating. I took a look at ISUZU engines http://www.isuzuengines.com/products/products_I.asp (just because it has HP ratings and specs). I could not find marine engines with less than 6cyl, so I took a look at industrial engines. You need to look at graphs an read specs to see if engine will fit your needs. Let's take 27.5 HP - 3CB1-CZP03 for example: Max torque @ 2,300 RPM (~22HP) Max HP @ 3,200 RPM (27.5 HP) Best fuel economy @ 2,000 RPM (~18 HP) Looking at this, it is better to keep engine in the range 2,000-2,300 RPM and you will have about 21HP. It leaves reserve about 6 HP if you go to 3,200 RPM. And you can run this engine as low as 1,200 RPM (with more fuel consumption) which gives about 10 HP at this RPM. As you can see - not an easy choice and it is only one engine ;)). Another thing to look for - Industrial Rated Output. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > If that is what your utility loads require thenthat is what should be > added. A word of warning though diesels like to run at full load at > least some of the time. Oversizing an engine doesn't do any good > either. > | 22887|22867|2010-03-23 14:23:05|wild_explorer|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|I meant extra hydraulic pump for winches, etc. Not pump for engine/gearbox operation. But thanks for clarification. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > RE DISCONNECT FOR ALT AND PUMP > if you t > be careful with the hydraulic pump as most marine gearboxes have an internal pump for holding the drive plates together --- check the use of yours before disconnecting -- > any loss of high pressure oil can cause dermatitis when it goes into the skin be careful . > | 22888|22867|2010-03-23 14:36:46|Paul Wilson|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|I have a circuit breaker which feeds power to the external regulator for the alternator. Pulling the breaker kills voltage to the field and unloads the alternator. It works well for me. Cheers, Paul Denis Buggy wrote: > > RE DISCONNECT FOR ALT AND PUMP > if you think it is required you can buy a free wheeling hub for your > alt which is activated by your regulator or in the case of your bmw > car by the throttle in order to give you max power only when you > accelerate rapidly it also cuts of the power steering pump to do the > same job model 520d ---2004 on > I would not bother with any of this trickery as you do not need it and > when your battery is charged to 13.8 volts in a 12 volt system the > regulator says enough is enough and the load is taken off the alt > until the regulator senses the voltage has dropped . > be careful with the hydraulic pump as most marine gearboxes have an > internal pump for holding the drive plates together --- check the use > of yours before disconnecting -- > any loss of high pressure oil can cause dermatitis when it goes into > the skin be careful . denis buggy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Frantz > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 2:47 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer > > If that is what your utility loads require thenthat is what should be > added. A word of warning though diesels like to run at full load at > least some of the time. Oversizing an engine doesn't do any good > either. > > As to the pump and alternator and disabling them it is a design > problem as far as I can tell. One could add a clutch or coupling to > deal with the unwanted load. That would be for the HYD pump, I'm not > sure you would want to bother with the alternator. > > There are a couple of reasons in my mind for keeping the alternator > working. One is the likely hood that there will always be something > connected that would use the energy. The second is that the > alternator wouldn't provide a huge load to the motor unloaded. > > Simple hyd systems however are another story. The pumps use > significant energy when dumping across a relief valve. There are > alternatives of course such as variable displacement pumps but that is > an entirely different discussion. A clutch or other disconnecting > mechanism is a cheaper solution. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Mar 23, 2010, at 1:47 AM, wild_explorer > > wrote: > > > Thanks, I will add 5HP for "utilities" load. Alternator could be > > disabled when not in use. Hydrolic pump - probably not, if it does > > not have a clutch for pump's drive pulley. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , David Frantz > > wrote: > >> > >> Sizing the motor for hull speed is one thing and is fine if the motor > >> is exclusive to driving the shaft. It gets tricker if you are also > >> using the motor for other things. Add a large alternator for > >> charging > >> and electrical loads and you end up burning power. Same thing when a > >> hyd pump is added. Each of these loads the engine even when it is > >> not > >> in use. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 22889|22867|2010-03-23 18:54:43|wild_explorer|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Seems like a good practical article about diesel engines (what need to look for) http://www.sbmar.com/Articles/Continuous-Duty.php| 22890|22867|2010-03-23 21:16:34|David Frantz|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Yes and you are only looking at the engine specs. Your gear box and transmission impact performance too. The other thing that factor in is prop matching. You may have reserve horse power on the graph but if the engine can't drive the prop thru the higher RPM range it won't do you any good. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 23, 2010, at 2:19 PM, wild_explorer wrote: > You right. Choosing engine is not just simple HP rating. I took a > look at ISUZU engines http://www.isuzuengines.com/products/products_I.asp > (just because it has HP ratings and specs). > > I could not find marine engines with less than 6cyl, so I took a > look at industrial engines. You need to look at graphs an read specs > to see if engine will fit your needs. > > Let's take 27.5 HP - 3CB1-CZP03 for example: > > Max torque @ 2,300 RPM (~22HP) > Max HP @ 3,200 RPM (27.5 HP) > Best fuel economy @ 2,000 RPM (~18 HP) > > Looking at this, it is better to keep engine in the range > 2,000-2,300 RPM and you will have about 21HP. It leaves reserve > about 6 HP if you go to 3,200 RPM. > > And you can run this engine as low as 1,200 RPM (with more fuel > consumption) which gives about 10 HP at this RPM. > > As you can see - not an easy choice and it is only one engine ;)). > Another thing to look for - Industrial Rated Output. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz > wrote: >> >> If that is what your utility loads require thenthat is what should be >> added. A word of warning though diesels like to run at full load at >> least some of the time. Oversizing an engine doesn't do any good >> either. >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22891|22867|2010-03-24 01:43:01|wild_explorer|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Actually, it seems, that it is not so complicated. The main things you need to know is the (designed) resistance of the hull. You can estimate the power of the engine you need, pick gearbox with reduction number (more reduction is better I think). Now you have rotation speed of the propeller shaft. From this point you can use some programs which will give you propeller dimensions for your setup (matching propeller to your engine). If you do not want to make "custom" propeller, you chose closest production one. I am still doing my research on this one and will appreciate any help from people who know/read archive on this subject. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > Yes and you are only looking at the engine specs. Your gear box and > transmission impact performance too. The other thing that factor in > is prop matching. You may have reserve horse power on the graph but > if the engine can't drive the prop thru the higher RPM range it won't > do you any good. | 22892|22867|2010-03-24 03:58:46|wild_explorer|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Comments on this one? http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats-engine/web/engine-pick-faq| 22893|14072|2010-03-24 10:21:20|Jonathan Stevens|Eighteen|I was given as samples some brown nylon discs like pan scourers designed to go on a Velcro backing pad on a 4 ½” grinder. Not having a Velcro pad I chopped a hole in one and set it to work on the rusty hull. It polished off nearly all the rust and scale on the square foot or so I tested it on. It did leave the surface very smooth though. Nest day, after a bit of dew, there were little pin head sized points of rust evident. I blasted that with some 60 grit alox and that gave it a suitably rough finish so I put some zinc primer on and will wait to see what happens. My compressor is only 12cfm so I couldn’t blast the whole boat from rust to ready to paint, it couldn’t keep up but…if I use these discs first, I think it probably could. I think the inside will be a challenge though, especially the angle stringers. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22894|22867|2010-03-24 13:29:59|Carl Anderson|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Why would you want to "engineer" this system so close? In boating, as in everything in life, there are always unforeseen things that happen. I would rather have an ample reserve of HP in my engine than not. How do you compensate for the increased drag from not cleaning your hull recently? What about the drag effect of your windage as the wind speed varies while you are motoring over an entrance bar to some harbor or river? Why try to cut your engine HP to the minimum? Carl sv-mom.com wild_explorer wrote: > > Actually, it seems, that it is not so complicated. The main things you > need to know is the (designed) resistance of the hull. You can > estimate the power of the engine you need, pick gearbox with reduction > number (more reduction is better I think). Now you have rotation speed > of the propeller shaft. From this point you can use some programs > which will give you propeller dimensions for your setup (matching > propeller to your engine). If you do not want to make "custom" > propeller, you chose closest production one. > > I am still doing my research on this one and will appreciate any help > from people who know/read archive on this subject. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , David Frantz > wrote: > > > > Yes and you are only looking at the engine specs. Your gear box and > > transmission impact performance too. The other thing that factor in > > is prop matching. You may have reserve horse power on the graph but > > if the engine can't drive the prop thru the higher RPM range it won't > > do you any good. > > | 22895|14072|2010-03-24 13:31:21|Carl Anderson|Re: Eighteen|I use those replaceable pads (on the velcro backing disk) to buff the stainless on my boat. Works great and there are about 6 or so different "grits" available. Carl sv-mom.com Jonathan Stevens wrote: > > I was given as samples some brown nylon discs like pan scourers > designed to > go on a Velcro backing pad on a 4 ½” grinder. Not having a Velcro pad I > chopped a hole in one and set it to work on the rusty hull. It > polished off > nearly all the rust and scale on the square foot or so I tested it on. It > did leave the surface very smooth though. Nest day, after a bit of dew, > there were little pin head sized points of rust evident. I blasted > that with > some 60 grit alox and that gave it a suitably rough finish so I put some > zinc primer on and will wait to see what happens. My compressor is only > 12cfm so I couldn’t blast the whole boat from rust to ready to paint, it > couldn’t keep up but…if I use these discs first, I think it probably > could. > I think the inside will be a challenge though, especially the angle > stringers. > > Jonathan. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 22896|22867|2010-03-24 14:17:57|Ben Okopnik|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:29:42AM -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > Why would you want to "engineer" this system so close? > In boating, as in everything in life, there are always unforeseen things > that happen. > I would rather have an ample reserve of HP in my engine than not. > How do you compensate for the increased drag from not cleaning your hull > recently? > What about the drag effect of your windage as the wind speed varies > while you are motoring over an entrance bar to some harbor or river? > Why try to cut your engine HP to the minimum? Carl is absolutely right here. Good seamanship means keeping good sea room, keeping your charts current, etc. - but if you think that you'll never have to claw off a lee shore in a gale, with a foul current that takes all the engine and sail power you've got and leaves you desperately wishing for a pair of oars, then you're dreaming. From a long-term cruiser's perspective, engine power, just like sail area, should be the amount that you'll need in the "average" situation (i.e., one or two clogged injectors, a fouled hull, and dragging a fishtrap that you've just snagged - it wasn't supposed to be in the middle of a channel, dammit!) plus at least 100% on top of that for emergencies. You should also have a *really* good feel for how far you can push things past redline: your engine, your masts, and even that customs official who has just asked you for a bribe. :) If you think about it from _that_ perspective, you'll know how much engine power you need - and it won't come from books on length-to-weight ratios, either. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22897|22867|2010-03-24 21:47:53|wild_explorer|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|I am not engineering it yet. I am trying to get an idea what is really necessary and what is overkill. So I corrected that chart (take a look) by "loading the hull with 9 tonnes of cargo" to emulate extra drug, wind, current, etc and be able to bring that chart to 65 HP engine requirement. Well... With such data to reach the same speed 10 knots now, I need 55 HP engine (vs 25 HP before). 25 HP engine now will push the hull at 7.5 kn. The difference is 2.5 kn. So the speed declined 25%. Of cause, it nice to have some extra power, but to DOUBLE engine's HP to increase speed 25%??? And it is unnecessary to put more than 65 HP engine - no advantage. I agree, extra 2.5 knots might be life saver in some situations. As it was mentioned before, EFFICIENCY of boat's DRIVE SYSTEM (engine, gearbox and propeller matching) make the REAL difference. I am still learning, do not be hard on me ;)) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Why would you want to "engineer" this system so close? ...skipped... > What about the drag effect of your windage as the wind speed varies > while you are motoring over an entrance bar to some harbor or river? > Why try to cut your engine HP to the minimum? > > Carl > | 22898|22867|2010-03-25 02:18:56|wild_explorer|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Point taken, I am doing more research. One thing already clear, that required power should be delivered by PROPELLER (engine power will be slightly higher). On one hand I agree with your approach for "safety margin" for engine power. On other hand - it takes too much (wasted) power to push the hull above designed speed. Propeller choice will make a difference for the same chosen engine. But if someone will try to use online propeller calculators, it is easy to get 20-30 kn for entered RPM. I did not see, so far, any online propeller calculators (for inboard engines) which ask for designed hull speed or power of the engine. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > If you think > about it from _that_ perspective, you'll know how much engine power you > need - and it won't come from books on length-to-weight ratios, either. > | 22899|22867|2010-03-25 02:29:32|Aaron Williams|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Go check out electric boats there is a calc program in the files section. --- On Wed, 3/24/10, wild_explorer wrote: From: wild_explorer Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 10:18 PM   Point taken, I am doing more research. One thing already clear, that required power should be delivered by PROPELLER (engine power will be slightly higher). On one hand I agree with your approach for "safety margin" for engine power. On other hand - it takes too much (wasted) power to push the hull above designed speed. Propeller choice will make a difference for the same chosen engine. But if someone will try to use online propeller calculators, it is easy to get 20-30 kn for entered RPM. I did not see, so far, any online propeller calculators (for inboard engines) which ask for designed hull speed or power of the engine. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > If you think > about it from _that_ perspective, you'll know how much engine power you > need - and it won't come from books on length-to-weight ratios, either. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22900|22867|2010-03-25 09:05:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 06:18:41AM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Point taken, I am doing more research. One thing already clear, that > required power should be delivered by PROPELLER (engine power will be > slightly higher). Yep. The only place it matters is where "the rubber meets the road" - or where you actually deliver thrust to the water. Everything else is theoretical. > On one hand I agree with your approach for "safety margin" for engine > power. On other hand - it takes too much (wasted) power to push the > hull above designed speed. I would never try to power a hull past, or even to, that point; the costs in fuel get astronomical. The perfect situation for a boat is where you've tuned your prop so that your engine's peak torque coincides with your hull speed, or just a hair below it (torque generally drops off faster after the peak than it does before.) -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22901|22787|2010-03-25 09:22:18|Dave Ladd|Re: Batteries lead|We should consider recycling the plastic! Personally, been putting ALL my plastic in the recycle bin(s) - even if it doesn't have a number on it. Since it's single stream I figure someone at the sorting plant might know what type it is and get it correctly sorted. On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:34 AM, theboilerflue wrote: > where else would it go? I suppose one could take it to the landfill and > bury it but that wouldn't exactly prevent the contamination of the oceans > now would it, might slow it down a bit but the toxic stuff has to go > somewhere eventually it never really stops being toxic not for a long time. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "arctichusky44" > wrote: > > > > > > No wonder the marine mammals in the arctic are so contaminated with > plasticizers when people are still knowingly burning toxic plastic and > releasing it into the atmosphere. It's 2010 for gosh sakes! > > Frank > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > We snag batteries when ever they are available and free and just set > them on top of the wheel weights in our wood fired smelter. The water boils > off, the plastic burns away and the plate separators turn to ash. It takes > a little longer but they are no trouble at all. The only batteries that are > worthless to try and melt down are coiled gel-cells. They are so tightly > packed that the lead sicks between the separator layers even when it is > molten. > > > > > > Here's the web page with the smelter: > http://www.submarineboat.com/working_with_lead.htm > > > > > > Doug > > > "I began life as a bad boy." --Simon Lake, father of the modern > submarine > > > Join "Bad Boy Submarines" at ArgonautJr.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: theboilerflue > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:00:10 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > > > > > > > > maybe a pipe nipple would be easier > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > Yes you could hammer it in with a big piece of 50mm shaft. Soaking > it in lime and water would neutralise it a lot . Welding a cap over it with > a nut welded over a hole in the cap would let you fill the lead with oil, > then put a well epoxied bolt in the nut, eliminating any chance of > corrosion. If its free, go for it. It will be lighter than molten lead , but > heavier than steel. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > What about white wash or agricultural lime dust? Would that work on > the acid? > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/13/10, theboilerflue wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: theboilerflue > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries lead > > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > Received: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 11:41 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > �� > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I imagine you could press in into a keel wash it well or something > to get rid of the acid residue, but the what are you going do with all that > acid - you could have a grade 8 science fare bonanza with a big box of > baking soda. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "alfredo\.nannetti\ > @...\.it" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Few days ago it has been said the the lead of batteries (used for > ballast) doesen't melt well. > > > > > > Question. > > > > > > Is it necessary to melt it? I mean, lead is a soft metal, we can > hammer it outside the boat and press it into the keel in little chips. Lead > of batteries is for free and is quite easy for hammering. > > > > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ > _________ _ > > > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > > > > > http://www.flickr com/gift/ > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22902|14072|2010-03-25 13:03:26|James Pronk|Re: Eighteen|What kind of pads are they? Who makes them? James --- On Wed, 3/24/10, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Eighteen To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:31 PM I use those replaceable pads (on the velcro backing disk) to buff the stainless on my boat. Works great and there are about 6 or so different "grits" available. Carl sv-mom.com Jonathan Stevens wrote: > > I was given as samples some brown nylon discs like pan scourers > designed to > go on a Velcro backing pad on a 4 ½” grinder. Not having a Velcro pad I > chopped a hole in one and set it to work on the rusty hull. It > polished off > nearly all the rust and scale on the square foot or so I tested it on. It > did leave the surface very smooth though. Nest day, after a bit of dew, > there were little pin head sized points of rust evident. I blasted > that with > some 60 grit alox and that gave it a suitably rough finish so I put some > zinc primer on and will wait to see what happens. My compressor is only > 12cfm so I couldn’t blast the whole boat from rust to ready to paint, it > couldn’t keep up but…if I use these discs first, I think it probably > could. > I think the inside will be a challenge though, especially the angle > stringers. > > Jonathan. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22903|22787|2010-03-25 14:19:30|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Batteries lead| "Dave Ladd" wrote: We should consider recycling the plastic! [lead-acid battery casings] Personally, been putting ALL my plastic in the recycle bin(s) - even if it doesn't have a number on it. Since it's single stream I figure someone at the sorting plant might know what type it is and get it correctly sorted. Trouble is, the someone at the sorting plant has to be paid, and resents his time and effort being wasted to remove inappropriate and possibly hazardous nonrecyclable materials.  Plastic motor oil containers are not considered recyclable; just imagine whether acid/slime/sulfate coated plastic battery casings (of varying composition, to boot) would be. And as has been pointed out before, you would have to drain and disassemble the battery first.  In a video about battery recycling I saw recently, a pile of batteries (looked like they had been shredded to let the acid out) was scooped up by a front loader on its way to the smelter, where the plastic was burnt off as the lead was melted.  These are the professional recyclers who know how to get the greatest value out of an otherwise waste material with the least expense, including labor. Realistically, the fraction of plastic in the environment made up of used battery casings is pretty small.  If you want to make a difference in waste plastic, don't just recycle but minimize the amount you buy in the first place!  Aluminum beverage containers are 100% recyclable.  Wish there was an alternative to plastic for milk containers; plastic- and wax-coated paper containers are not recyclable at all.  Reusable glass is great, but disposable glass is often not even collected for recycling because making glass from sand is almost as cheap as recycling. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22904|14072|2010-03-26 00:30:02|kingsknight4life|Re: Eighteen|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > What kind of pads are they? Who makes them? > James > I can check and see if I have any left and if there's markings. I bought mine from a small welding supply shop in duncan BC a couple yrs. ago. They look like SOS pads or brillo pads. Carl's right they are excellent for making stainless pretty. rowland| 22905|14072|2010-03-26 03:00:16|kingsknight4life|Re: Eighteen|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James Pronk wrote: > > > > What kind of pads are they? Who makes them? > > James > > > I can check and see if I have any left and if there's markings. I bought mine from a small welding supply shop in duncan BC a couple yrs. ago. They look like SOS pads or brillo pads. Carl's right they are excellent for making stainless pretty. > rowland > Here's alink to a pic http://www.shopping.com/xPO-3M-7-BROWN-3M-HOOK-LOOP-DISCS or google 3m scotch brite velcro disc Rowland| 22906|22867|2010-03-26 03:23:13|wild_explorer|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Carl, you are right again. I am missing something (will take a look exactly what later). Simplest reliable online calculator to estimate boat's engine power I found so far is this "Hull speed calculator" http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/crouchcalc.pl Enter 150 in Hull Factor field to get speed in KNOTS. BS_36 weight is about 20,000 LBs Article about importance to have EFFICIENT power train (engine, gearbox, propeller) from people squeezing all possible speed: http://www.land-and-sea.com/articles/powerboat/powerboat_on-the-curve_article.htm It looks like (based on my research) Propeller choice is not as simple as just getting a pitch of the propeller based on drive shaft RPMs (using lousy online calculators). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Why try to cut your engine HP to the minimum? > > Carl > sv-mom.com | 22907|22907|2010-03-26 07:14:29|Denis Buggy|Re: engines and props for brent swai boat|re engines and props for Brent swain boat ------- if those who presently own and use these boats would review their present arrangements and state if they are happy with their match of engine to prop we would all then know for sure what worked and what did not as these people are the experts and this topic keeps surfacing as if for the first time each time -- I cannot wait for the next discussion on welders made from hairdryers - Denis buggy wild explorer wrote It looks like (based on my research) Propeller choice is not as simple as just getting a pitch of the propeller based on drive shaft RPMs (using lousy online calculators). --- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22908|22867|2010-03-26 10:50:35|maxcamirand|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Hi group, I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned The Propeller Handbook by Dave Gerr. I've often heard it referred to as the bible of propeller selection. Google Books has a free preview at : http://books.google.com/books?id=8w09O4hooWUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=dave+gerr+propeller+handbook&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false Regards, -Max --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Carl, you are right again. I am missing something (will take a look exactly what later). Simplest reliable online calculator to estimate boat's engine power I found so far is this "Hull speed calculator" > > http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/crouchcalc.pl > > Enter 150 in Hull Factor field to get speed in KNOTS. BS_36 weight is about 20,000 LBs > > Article about importance to have EFFICIENT power train (engine, gearbox, propeller) from people squeezing all possible speed: > > http://www.land-and-sea.com/articles/powerboat/powerboat_on-the-curve_article.htm > > It looks like (based on my research) Propeller choice is not as simple as just getting a pitch of the propeller based on drive shaft RPMs (using lousy online calculators). > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Why try to cut your engine HP to the minimum? > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > | 22909|22909|2010-03-26 11:10:36|martin|Battery Charging Ideas|Hi All; I'm curious as to what configurations people have on their boats for charging up the batteries. I'm in the process of wiring up Prairie Maid's panels. I have a start battery and a house battery with an automatic charging relay to isolate and charge the two. I keep reading two trains of thought as to where the charge from the altenator should go first. The house or the start. What have others done that is working well for them. On the motor discussion I deliberately used a larger diesel and gear just so I had options down the road. Martin.| 22910|22907|2010-03-26 11:52:42|steve|Re: engines and props for brent swai boat|48 hp Isuzu into a Hurth250 with 2:1 reduction turning a 17D x 12P 3 blade prop. This is the biggest prop I could fit into the aperture as built. It seems about the right size for the engine. The engine gets that HP at about 2500 rpm but I usually run at 1700 or 1800.If I open it up to 2200 rpm I can push the boat into a fresh breeze and chop at 5.5 knots. Rarely do this. Not much hobby-horsing with this because the stern squats and the bow rises and the spray over the bow actually diminishes. I would love to have a feathering prop , but haven't seen the right price yet. So I drag around the biggish prop and suffer a bit while sailing. 5000 hrs and fingers crossed. I have a 15 x 14 3-blade as a spare that I used for several years , it worked OK as well.Prob a little small. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > re engines and props for Brent swain boat ------- > if those who presently own and use these boats would review their present arrangements and state if they are happy with their match of engine to prop we would all then know for sure what worked and what did not as these people are the experts and this topic keeps surfacing as if for the first time each time -- I cannot wait for the next discussion on welders made from hairdryers - Denis buggy > > > > wild explorer wrote > > It looks like (based on my research) Propeller choice is not as simple as just getting a pitch of the propeller based on drive shaft RPMs (using lousy online calculators). > > --- > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22911|22909|2010-03-26 11:58:06|steve|Re: Battery Charging Ideas|A 100 amp alternator with a smart regulator goes to the 4 Trojan 105 6v batteries , all one bank. An echo-charger trickles into the separate starting battery. Two 85 watt Kyocera solar panels above the radar on an arch go into a Blue Sky controller and then into the Trojans. All LED lights now , so the main power consumers are the older crt radar when it is occasionally used , and the new Engel fridge that will take 2.1 amps 50% of the time ,if I turn it on. No AC power aboard. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > Hi All; I'm curious as to what configurations people have on their boats for charging up the batteries. I'm in the process of wiring up Prairie Maid's panels. I have a start battery and a house battery with an automatic charging relay to isolate and charge the two. I keep reading two trains of thought as to where the charge from the altenator should go first. The house or the start. What have others done that is working well for them. On the motor discussion I deliberately used a larger diesel and gear just so I had options down the road. > Martin. > | 22912|22907|2010-03-26 13:40:32|wild_explorer|Re: engines and props for brent swai boat|If this topic keep popping-up all the time, may be it is time to admit there is no enough information and make FAQ? I am TRYING NOT TO ASK questions about subjects which are very well explained in Brent's book. Now I start putting what I learned in Google Origamiboats group (just because it allows to make WEB-pages, put pictures and make it visible to people without making them members of Google group. My information might be not always correct - I am correcting it "as I go/learn". It does not take much time to make WEB-page if I have information and links. I will appreciate any help. P.S. I wish, Brent's book has more basic information on this topic. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > re engines and props for Brent swain boat ------- > this topic keeps surfacing as if for the first time each time > Denis buggy > | 22913|22907|2010-03-26 13:54:22|wild_explorer|Re: engines and props for brent swai boat|Steve, Carl Could you give engine model number? I would like to make web-page about set-ups for "drive trains" used (or going to use) by owners on BS36, BS40. Carl, What propeller you have? Engine model #? Other owners of BS36, BS40... Could you give your current, planing or future/dream setup? Please ;) Thanks! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > 48 hp Isuzu into a Hurth250 with 2:1 reduction turning a 17D x 12P 3 blade prop. This is the biggest prop I could fit into the aperture as built. It seems about the right size for the engine. | 22914|22914|2010-03-26 14:11:07|martin|Data Base Info|A few of us have boat information in the Data base. Martin.| 22915|22907|2010-03-26 15:59:46|theboilerflue|Re: engines and props for brent swain boat|I have a john deere (manufacture yanmar) 3TNA72UJ 22hp engine, hurth 100 transmission 1.8 forward 1.7 reverse reduction, 14x14 prop, 1 1/4 shaft, I think I'm over pitched and probably need something more like 14x10 or 12x12 or so the engine doesn't get up to the rated rpm under load. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > re engines and props for Brent swain boat ------- > if those who presently own and use these boats would review their present arrangements and state if they are happy with their match of engine to prop we would all then know for sure what worked and what did not as these people are the experts and this topic keeps surfacing as if for the first time each time -- I cannot wait for the next discussion on welders made from hairdryers - Denis buggy > | 22916|22909|2010-03-26 16:10:43|theboilerflue|Re: Battery Charging Ideas|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > Hi All; I'm curious as to what configurations people have on their boats for charging up the batteries. I'm in the process of wiring up Prairie Maid's panels. I have a start battery and a house battery with an automatic charging relay to isolate and charge the two. I keep reading two trains of thought as to where the charge from the altenator should go first. The house or the start. What have others done that is working well for them. On the motor discussion I deliberately used a larger diesel and gear just so I had options down the road. > Martin. > I have pretty much the same setup as steve, xantrex multi stage external regulator controlling a 65 amp alternator (I know it's a little small that's all I had), charging the 4 trojan t-105 6 volt golf cart batteries for the house bank, xantrex echo charger dumps current to the starter battery, I don't know what the starter battery is, it was on sale and said "Marine" on it which I think only means that the terminals are stainless, it's a "maintenance free" sealed thing. I have a series of switches that I use to shut any electrical connection to the engine off completely - to isolate the hull from the ground on the engine (except when I'm running the engine), all LED lights. And yeah no AC power just put the extension cord through the vents.| 22917|22909|2010-03-26 17:19:50|Denis Buggy|Re: Battery Charging Ideas|RE BATTERIES YOU SHOULD ALWAYS CHARGE THE START BATTERY FIRST -- as your engine is your life saver . and you should have a pair of jump leads to provide a link for charging between batteries if your reg breaks down. most jump leads are not worth a curse and you can make your own good ones using welding cable and heavy duty clamps . some people use a 10 dollar multimeter screwed to the wall to check battery voltage-charge rate . I would have a pair of leads with battery connections made up which could be bolted to your spare battery from the engine which would allow you a proper connection to start the engine if the battery sizes are different and it will not transfer to the engine area . if you had to bleed the injector pump and start you will probably exhaust the first battery as there may be a little air trapped in the injector pipes and it is not unknown to flatten a battery trying to start something and even a good jump lead will not carry the required load to start they will only refresh and aid the main battery --they will not carry even 50% of the load - having the heavy battery leads made up is the difference between starting and not - you cannot let her roll down the hill offshore and I would bleed an engine fully and then keep pumping the lift pump until I hear 30psi pressure break the seal on the non return valve to the tank and continue pumping for another few minutes before I would touch the starter -you only get one chance as people usually exhaust a battery simply finding out it will not start. Denis Buggy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > Hi All; I'm curious as to what configurations people have on their boats for charging up the batteries. I'm in the process of wiring up Prairie Maid's panels. I have a start battery and a house battery with an automatic charging relay to isolate and charge the two. I keep reading two trains of thought as to where the charge from the altenator should go first. The house or the start. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22918|22907|2010-03-26 17:50:27|GP|Re: engines and props for brent swai boat|I have a Campbelll prop ...supposed to be the cats butt for sail boat props unless you are going against tide rips out our BC way. A friend has a used large prop less than half the price of the Campbell and he made the trip through the gap and I was driven back.. so ... you need to have some bite to the prop... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > re engines and props for Brent swain boat ------- > if those who presently own and use these boats would review their present arrangements and state if they are happy with their match of engine to prop we would all then know for sure what worked and what did not as these people are the experts and this topic keeps surfacing as if for the first time each time -- I cannot wait for the next discussion on welders made from hairdryers - Denis buggy > > > > wild explorer wrote > > It looks like (based on my research) Propeller choice is not as simple as just getting a pitch of the propeller based on drive shaft RPMs (using lousy online calculators). > > --- > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22919|22909|2010-03-26 18:27:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: Battery Charging Ideas|On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 09:19:39PM -0000, Denis Buggy wrote: > > RE BATTERIES > > YOU SHOULD ALWAYS CHARGE THE START BATTERY FIRST -- as your engine is your life saver . I can't see that this matters in the least, as long as your batteries can be placed in parallel for starting. It would make no sense to all *not* to have it that way. Yes, you should keep your starting battery topped up - but seriously, the usual job asked of it is not one that pulls a lot of energy out of it. Let's say that your usual start takes 30 seconds (that's a *long* time cranking!) and pulls 300 amps (again, generous estimate): 300 * 30 / 60 / 60 = 2.5Ah (amp-hours) So, yes, your starting battery should be sized for lots and lots of CCA - but as far as actual recharging goes, this is a non-issue. A 100A alternator will recharge that puppy in a minute and a half. > and you should have a pair of jump leads to provide a link for charging between batteries if your reg breaks down. > most jump leads are not worth a curse and you can make your own good ones using welding cable and heavy duty clamps . > some people use a 10 dollar multimeter screwed to the wall to check battery voltage-charge rate . > I would have a pair of leads with battery connections made up which could be bolted to your spare battery from the engine which would allow you a proper connection to start the engine if the battery sizes are different and it will not transfer to the engine area . > if you had to bleed the injector pump and start you will probably exhaust the first battery as there may be a little air trapped in the injector pipes and it is not unknown to flatten a battery trying to start something and even a good jump lead will not carry the required load to start they will only refresh and aid the main battery --they will not carry even 50% of the load - > having the heavy battery leads made up is the difference between starting and not - > you cannot let her roll down the hill offshore and I would bleed an engine fully and then keep pumping the lift pump until I hear 30psi pressure break the seal on the non return valve to the tank and continue pumping for another few minutes before I would touch the starter -you only get one chance as people usually exhaust a battery simply finding out it will not start. Denis Buggy All the rest of this is good, practical advice though. I once met a guy who had an air starter. It spun his engine faster than any electrical starter I ever saw, and he could easily pump it up manually in a couple of minutes to full pressure (usually, running the engine did that in the first few seconds.) I tried that pump, and it felt like almost no effort at all. It wasn't a cheap setup - I think I recall something like $1000 being mentioned - but it was really sweet. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22920|22907|2010-03-26 18:28:05|brentswain38|Re: engines and props for brent swai boat|I went from a Campbell prop to a more conventional design. Didn't see any advantage to the Campbell, except for the thick leading edge on the Campbell being better at dinging logs without dinging the prop. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "GP" wrote: > > I have a Campbelll prop ...supposed to be the cats butt for sail boat props unless you are going against tide rips out our BC way. A friend has a used large prop less than half the price of the Campbell and he made the trip through the gap and I was driven back.. so ... you need to have some bite to the prop... > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > re engines and props for Brent swain boat ------- > > if those who presently own and use these boats would review their present arrangements and state if they are happy with their match of engine to prop we would all then know for sure what worked and what did not as these people are the experts and this topic keeps surfacing as if for the first time each time -- I cannot wait for the next discussion on welders made from hairdryers - Denis buggy > > > > > > > > wild explorer wrote > > > > It looks like (based on my research) Propeller choice is not as simple as just getting a pitch of the propeller based on drive shaft RPMs (using lousy online calculators). > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 22921|22907|2010-03-26 18:34:20|wild_explorer|Re: engines and props for brent swain boat|Page created and will be updated if more information will be provided (or I dig it up from archive) http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats-engine/web/drive-trains-in-use-on-brents-boats| 22922|22909|2010-03-26 19:06:55|martin|Battery Charging Ideas|On Prairie Maid I've got a 105amp altenator with a xantrex smart regulator. A blue sea charging relay to isolate and charge, all hooked together with heavy welding cable going through a blue sea main switch that allows for manual combining of both battery banks. As with all things marine there are as many thoughts on how to, as there are sailors. That's the beauty of a site like ours, one can pick and choose from all that experience and Ideas. Martin..| 22923|22907|2010-03-26 19:36:36|steve|Re: engines and props for brent swai boat|Isuzu C240 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "wild_explorer" wrote: > > Steve, Carl > > Could you give engine model number? I would like to make web-page about set-ups for "drive trains" used (or going to use) by owners on BS36, BS40. > > Carl, What propeller you have? Engine model #? > > Other owners of BS36, BS40... Could you give your current, planing or future/dream setup? Please ;) > > Thanks! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > 48 hp Isuzu into a Hurth250 with 2:1 reduction turning a 17D x 12P 3 blade prop. This is the biggest prop I could fit into the aperture as built. It seems about the right size for the engine. > | 22924|22909|2010-03-26 19:36:44|steve|Re: Battery Charging Ideas|I have a switch to connect the whole house bank to the starting circuit , if needed. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > RE BATTERIES > > YOU SHOULD ALWAYS CHARGE THE START BATTERY FIRST -- as your engine is your life saver . > and you should have a pair of jump leads to provide a link for charging between batteries if your reg breaks down. > most jump leads are not worth a curse and you can make your own good ones using welding cable and heavy duty clamps . > some people use a 10 dollar multimeter screwed to the wall to check battery voltage-charge rate . > I would have a pair of leads with battery connections made up which could be bolted to your spare battery from the engine which would allow you a proper connection to start the engine if the battery sizes are different and it will not transfer to the engine area . > if you had to bleed the injector pump and start you will probably exhaust the first battery as there may be a little air trapped in the injector pipes and it is not unknown to flatten a battery trying to start something and even a good jump lead will not carry the required load to start they will only refresh and aid the main battery --they will not carry even 50% of the load - > having the heavy battery leads made up is the difference between starting and not - > you cannot let her roll down the hill offshore and I would bleed an engine fully and then keep pumping the lift pump until I hear 30psi pressure break the seal on the non return valve to the tank and continue pumping for another few minutes before I would touch the starter -you only get one chance as people usually exhaust a battery simply finding out it will not start. Denis Buggy > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > > > Hi All; I'm curious as to what configurations people have on their boats for charging up the batteries. I'm in the process of wiring up Prairie Maid's panels. I have a start battery and a house battery with an automatic charging relay to isolate and charge the two. I keep reading two trains of thought as to where the charge from the altenator should go first. The house or the start. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22925|22867|2010-03-26 20:38:52|wild_explorer|Re: Choosing engine power for 36-40 footer|Looks like a very good book. Gives all basics. It has lot of information I need. Thanks! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "maxcamirand" wrote: > > Hi group, > > I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned The Propeller Handbook by Dave Gerr. I've often heard it referred to as the bible of propeller selection. Google Books has a free preview at : http://books.google.com/books?id=8w09O4hooWUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=dave+gerr+propeller+handbook&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false > > Regards, > -Max | 22926|22907|2010-03-26 22:54:48|Carl Anderson|Re: engines and props for brent swai boat|I have a 4LE2 (54 hp) Isuzu running a ZF25 with 1:1.97 reduction turning a 18 X 13 two blade prop. works great! (2000 rpm gives me aroun 6 kn) Carl On 3/26/2010 10:49 AM, wild_explorer wrote: > > > Steve, Carl > > Could you give engine model number? I would like to make web-page about > set-ups for "drive trains" used (or going to use) by owners on BS36, BS40. > > Carl, What propeller you have? Engine model #? > > Other owners of BS36, BS40... Could you give your current, planing or > future/dream setup? Please ;) > > Thanks! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "steve" wrote: > > > > 48 hp Isuzu into a Hurth250 with 2:1 reduction turning a 17D x 12P 3 > blade prop. This is the biggest prop I could fit into the aperture as > built. It seems about the right size for the engine. > > | 22927|22927|2010-03-27 11:09:32|SHANE ROTHWELL|Engines and props for Brentboats|Dennis et all, Dennis, you nailed it re welders from hair dryers....beaut. Re the "Wild" fraud/wank who hides behind a pathetic name 1. Just like a polititian "tell me where you are going, I'll run out front and lead the way!". I suppose that now that he's made up a web-page on the subject, he's now an expert? 2. I wonder if he'd even have a life at all if it wasn't for computers? 3. has he ever even been sailing, or is it all from his "research" 4. I guess welding fabrication and actually doing something is too much? .....might even get your hands dirty. Re: engines and props for brent swai boat Posted by: "Denis Buggy" buggy@... deniswig Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:14 am (PDT) re engines and props for Brent swain boat ------- if those who presently own and use these boats would review their present arrangements and state if they are happy with their match of engine to prop we would all then know for sure what worked and what did not as these people are the experts and this topic keeps surfacing as if for the first time each time -- I cannot wait for the next discussion on welders made from hairdryers - Denis buggy wild explorer wrote It looks like (based on my research) Propeller choice is not as simple as just getting a pitch of the propeller based on drive shaft RPMs (using lousy online calculators) . __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 22928|22909|2010-03-27 11:20:57|SHANE ROTHWELL|Battery Charging Ideas|Martin, Knowing very littel about the subject I needed a good bible, found 2 acutally "living on 12 volts with Ample Power" and "Wiring 12 Volts for Ample Power", both by David Smead and Ruth Ishihara. ISBN# 0-945415-03-6 Esplanations, schematics, everything -including a set up using 2 break before make battery switches that will give you every combination possibe with what you have which worked a treat for me. It's all pretty much in line with what Dennis and Steve of Silas Crosby have told you. It's nothing new, just laid out in a form that's easy to follow Shane Battery Charging Ideas Posted by: "martin" mforster@... prairiemaidca Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:10 am (PDT) Hi All; I'm curious as to what configurations people have on their boats for charging up the batteries. I'm in the process of wiring up Prairie Maid's panels. I have a start battery and a house battery with an automatic charging relay to isolate and charge the two. I keep reading two trains of thought as to where the charge from the altenator should go first. The house or the start. What have others done that is working well for them. On the motor discussion I deliberately used a larger diesel and gear just so I had options down the road. Martin. __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 22929|22909|2010-03-28 02:34:32|wild_explorer|Re: Air (pneumatic) start|Actually pretty good idea. Especially for a sailboat. Pneumatic start is used in big marine diesels for decades (direct air into cylinders trough valve in the head). But I never heard about pneumatic starter. Do you remember more details about it? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > I once met a guy who had an air starter. It spun his engine faster than > any electrical starter I ever saw, and he could easily pump it up > manually in a couple of minutes to full pressure (usually, running the > engine did that in the first few seconds.) I tried that pump, and it > felt like almost no effort at all. It wasn't a cheap setup - I think I > recall something like $1000 being mentioned - but it was really sweet. > | 22930|22909|2010-03-28 03:32:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: Air (pneumatic) start|On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 06:34:22AM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Actually pretty good idea. Especially for a sailboat. Pneumatic start > is used in big marine diesels for decades (direct air into cylinders > trough valve in the head). But I never heard about pneumatic starter. > Do you remember more details about it? Not much, I'm afraid, other than what it looked like - which was mostly like an electric starter (although it may have been just a little longer, but I wouldn't swear to it.) Looking around at my favorite engineering search site, here's a list of them from Ingersoll Rand: http://www.globalspec.com/SpecSearch/Products?Comp=727&QID=17268282&VID=100173 -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22931|22909|2010-03-28 07:12:38|martin demers|Re: Air (pneumatic) start|it is use a lot on city transit buses, on big detroit diesel engines. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 03:31:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Air (pneumatic) start On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 06:34:22AM -0000, wild_explorer wrote: > Actually pretty good idea. Especially for a sailboat. Pneumatic start > is used in big marine diesels for decades (direct air into cylinders > trough valve in the head). But I never heard about pneumatic starter. > Do you remember more details about it? Not much, I'm afraid, other than what it looked like - which was mostly like an electric starter (although it may have been just a little longer, but I wouldn't swear to it.) Looking around at my favorite engineering search site, here's a list of them from Ingersoll Rand: http://www.globalspec.com/SpecSearch/Products?Comp=727&QID=17268282&VID=100173 -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com _________________________________________________________________ Messenger sur votre t�l�phone = MI sur la route http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712965 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22932|22909|2010-03-28 09:50:02|Ben Okopnik|Re: Air (pneumatic) start|On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 07:12:10AM -0400, martin demers wrote: > > it is use a lot on city transit buses, on big detroit diesel engines. Might be interesting to look in the junkyards where you are and see if there are any available, and how much they're going for. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22933|22909|2010-03-28 10:15:09|tropical_breeze52|Re: Air (pneumatic) start|on some hyster forks Ive worked on they had hydraulic over air for when working explosives years ago --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 07:12:10AM -0400, martin demers wrote: > > > > it is use a lot on city transit buses, on big detroit diesel engines. > > Might be interesting to look in the junkyards where you are and see if > there are any available, and how much they're going for. > > > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com > | 22934|22909|2010-03-28 12:23:33|Norm Moore|Re: Air (pneumatic) start|You'll probably have more luck finding a spring starter for the smaller industrial diesels used as generators, or boats... There was a recent discussion about them on origamiboats. Norm Moore 559-645-5314 ________________________________ From: wild_explorer To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 10:34:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Air (pneumatic) start Actually pretty good idea. Especially for a sailboat. Pneumatic start is used in big marine diesels for decades (direct air into cylinders trough valve in the head). But I never heard about pneumatic starter. Do you remember more details about it? --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > I once met a guy who had an air starter. It spun his engine faster than > any electrical starter I ever saw, and he could easily pump it up > manually in a couple of minutes to full pressure (usually, running the > engine did that in the first few seconds.) I tried that pump, and it > felt like almost no effort at all. It wasn't a cheap setup - I think I > recall something like $1000 being mentioned - but it was really sweet. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22935|22935|2010-03-28 15:02:38|mickeyolaf|Morse/Teleflex Controls|Is anyone aware of a stainless replacement for the Morse MJB two lever side mount control? ($360-520 US) The Morse is a combo of brass, thin chrome, and mild steel which pits and corrodes rapidly. I've taken it off the boat and plan to return it. It will be nothing but trouble. There are other chinese copies of the control which are of the same ill matched materials.($90-140 US) I see Vetus has an all stainless single lever control ($250 US) but that is dual function. I wonder if these controls would/could be convertable/disabled to single function using two of them? Any of u mechanical wizs out there know?| 22936|22935|2010-03-28 16:39:53|David Frantz|Re: Morse/Teleflex Controls|I can't help you with another manufacture but I could suggest taking Origami one step further and making your own. It wouldn't be that difficult to cast control lever arms out of bronze. Find a friend with a mill or lathe to do the rest. I'm not sure what your specific use is here (throttle and transmision maybe). Throttle controls should be fairly easy. A gear shift maybe not so easy. If this is so, do you really want the throttle grouped with the transmission control? Maybe I'm missing what you are after here. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Mar 28, 2010, at 2:58 PM, mickeyolaf wrote: > Is anyone aware of a stainless replacement for the Morse MJB two > lever side mount control? ($360-520 US) > > The Morse is a combo of brass, thin chrome, and mild steel which > pits and corrodes rapidly. I've taken it off the boat and plan to > return it. It will be nothing but trouble. > > There are other chinese copies of the control which are of the same > ill matched materials.($90-140 US) > > I see Vetus has an all stainless single lever control ($250 US) but > that is dual function. I wonder if these controls would/could be > convertable/disabled to single function using two of them? Any of u > mechanical wizs out there know? > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22937|22909|2010-03-28 18:26:19|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: Air (pneumatic) start//// wind up starters...|Wind up mechanical starters with a spring, think very strong clockwork motor!, have been available as a direct bolt on replacement for electric starters on small diesels. They are no larger than the electric starter they replaced and are wound with a small handle. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22938|22909|2010-03-28 18:33:11|jason ball|Re: Air (pneumatic) start//// wind up starters...|that sounds interesting ,any ideas of where i could get more info on the subject? --- On Sun, 28/3/10, IAN CAMPBELL wrote: From: IAN CAMPBELL Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Air (pneumatic) start//// wind up starters... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 28 March, 2010, 23:26   Wind up mechanical starters with a spring, think very strong clockwork motor!, have been available as a direct bolt on replacement for electric starters on small diesels. They are no larger than the electric starter they replaced and are wound with a small handle. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22939|22909|2010-03-28 19:28:49|Ben Okopnik|Re: Air (pneumatic) start//// wind up starters...|On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 10:33:09PM +0000, jason ball wrote: > that sounds interesting ,any ideas of where i could get more info on the subject? http://www.springstarter.com/ seems like a good bet. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com| 22940|22909|2010-03-28 23:56:48|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: Air (pneumatic) start//// wind up starters...|www.springstarters.com saw one on eBay once! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22941|22909|2010-03-29 00:01:16|IAN CAMPBELL|Re: Air (pneumatic) start//// wind up starters...|http://strongstarter.com/spring_starter_light_model.html for small diesels [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22942|22935|2010-03-29 04:49:31|Denis Buggy|Re: Morse/Teleflex Controls|YOUR PROBLEM IS NOT CLEAR until you come across a cheap and sturdy alternative you could try a cheap solution by taking apart the simple controls and smearing a generous layer of copper grease and re assembling -ordinary EP2 grease is biodegradable for safety reasons however copper grease is not and will stop your pitting . do not forget to grease the cable while you are at it .Denis Buggy ----- Original Message ----- From: mickeyolaf Subject: [origamiboats] Morse/Teleflex Controls Is anyone aware of a stainless replacement for the Morse MJB two lever side mount control? ($360-520 US) The Morse is a combo of brass, thin chrome, and mild steel which pits and corrodes rapidly. I've taken it off the boat and plan to return it. It will be nothing but trouble. There are other chinese copies of the control which are of the same ill matched materials.($90-140 US) I see Vetus has an all stainless single lever control ($250 US) but that is dual function. I wonder if these controls would/could be convertable/disabled to single function using two of them? Any of u mechanical wizs out there know? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22943|22943|2010-03-29 08:24:42|sitefix|coodoos|I would just like to say thanks for post on this site. Both recent and historical. They show a mentality and desire of a folk / group of people that are desirous of independence in a non selfish, non threatening manner. And most pointedly, practical methods of getting and living more independently in an interdependent manner. Sorta civilized at times, but yet having the urge to be free of civil constraints while effecting the minimum of more civilized peoples at the same time. Unfortunately, there are those in power,that take a dim view of a few would be stragglers and non conformist that escape "their" ideas of proper "civilized behavior" and do their utmost to bring such into conformity, via taxes and restriction on privileges. I would like to salute those who provide details and experience of what works and doesn't on this site. I just cant imagine a better method of a semi sustainable low impact lifestyle. Hopefully, my hull is in the water before it is too late, and I get to return to some of those places I want to stay at for a while. Welding class has been great so far. I should be working on stainless this week and starting to make the anchor windless. I haven't worked on stainless or aluminum yet, but have come a long way on regular steel. I am now actually comfortable with a vertical uphill weld and have learned that what I often thought was overhead is actually horizontal up high and not really a problem. Ok, the uscg had invited me to visit their rec office and test. I had to study for that and lost more than a few weeks momentum. Now I look forward to getting back into the groove / bead and advancing the cause. Thanks for the help along the way, including the "individualistic" attitudes. Quite enjoyable, refreshing and encouraging. Sincerely, Par| 22944|22909|2010-03-29 15:52:20|martin demers|Re: Air (pneumatic) start//// wind up starters...|unfortunatly in their engine list , they dont mention either VW or Yanmar 3gm Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: ben@... Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:28:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Air (pneumatic) start//// wind up starters... On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 10:33:09PM +0000, jason ball wrote: > that sounds interesting ,any ideas of where i could get more info on the subject? http://www.springstarter.com/ seems like a good bet. -- OKOPNIK CONSULTING Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com _________________________________________________________________ Obtenez la version mobile de Messenger ici http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712964 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22945|14072|2010-03-29 23:59:33|Bob Wills|Re: Eighteen|I also use the 3m type velcro type disc. I do a lot of s/steel work and go from the brown to the fine gray. The thing you want to becarful about is do not ever work on any other metal with them as in steel. Do not be too agressive as it will heat up the metel and discoulor.   I also use flap wheel type sanding disc that go up to 200 grit for getting things preped for polishing.   Hope info helps --- On Wed, 3/24/10, Carl Anderson wrote: From: Carl Anderson Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Eighteen To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 5:31 PM I use those replaceable pads (on the velcro backing disk) to buff the stainless on my boat. Works great and there are about 6 or so different "grits" available. Carl sv-mom.com Jonathan Stevens wrote: > > I was given as samples some brown nylon discs like pan scourers > designed to > go on a Velcro backing pad on a 4 ½” grinder. Not having a Velcro pad I > chopped a hole in one and set it to work on the rusty hull. It > polished off > nearly all the rust and scale on the square foot or so I tested it on. It > did leave the surface very smooth though. Nest day, after a bit of dew, > there were little pin head sized points of rust evident. I blasted > that with > some 60 grit alox and that gave it a suitably rough finish so I put some > zinc primer on and will wait to see what happens. My compressor is only > 12cfm so I couldn’t blast the whole boat from rust to ready to paint, it > couldn’t keep up but…if I use these discs first, I think it probably > could. > I think the inside will be a challenge though, especially the angle > stringers. > > Jonathan. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22946|22946|2010-03-30 14:57:21|rooster|BS 40 rigging|What size rigging wire for the BS40(3/8" 1x19 with 5/8 pin?) and has anyone worked out the righting moment. Jason| 22947|22907|2010-03-30 15:26:37|wild_explorer|Re: engines and props for brent swai boat|Does anybody know what is the BIGGEST prop's aperture is possible to make on BS36, BS40(with acceptable prop shaft angle < 10-15 deg)? How dip is prop's shaft below waterline? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > 17D x 12P 3 blade prop. This is the biggest prop I could fit into the aperture as built. > | 22948|22948|2010-03-31 08:24:32|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|using surplus paint|HI, I bought some devoe 4160 industrial primer for $50.00 / 5 gal. , I will use it above waterline, on deck and inside. I can also get some epoxy floor paint, did anyone experienced with such paint on a steel boat, can it be used under water line? Does anyone know if you can add something to paint to convert it to marine paint? Martin.| 22949|22948|2010-03-31 10:00:31|Aaron Williams|Re: using surplus paint|Martin Just in case you have not looked at Devo coatings web site.   http://www.devoecoatings.com/Specifications.do   Aaron --- On Wed, 3/31/10, mdemers2005@... wrote: From: mdemers2005@... Subject: [origamiboats] using surplus paint To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 4:23 AM   HI, I bought some devoe 4160 industrial primer for $50.00 / 5 gal. , I will use it above waterline, on deck and inside. I can also get some epoxy floor paint, did anyone experienced with such paint on a steel boat, can it be used under water line? Does anyone know if you can add something to paint to convert it to marine paint? Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22950|22948|2010-04-01 09:12:05|markh|Re: using surplus paint|Devo also sells a fire proof (resistant) paint used by the US Navy Martin Just in case you have not looked at Devo coatings web site. http://www.devoecoatings.com/Specifications.do Aaron --- On Wed, 3/31/10, mdemers2005@... wrote: From: mdemers2005@... Subject: [origamiboats] using surplus paint To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 4:23 AM HI, I bought some devoe 4160 industrial primer for $50.00 / 5 gal. , I will use it above waterline, on deck and inside. I can also get some epoxy floor paint, did anyone experienced with such paint on a steel boat, can it be used under water line? Does anyone know if you can add something to paint to convert it to marine paint? Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22951|22948|2010-04-01 09:15:21|martin demers|Re: using surplus paint|Thanks for the info, but I cant load it on my computer, too slow internet. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: akenai@... Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:00:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] using surplus paint Martin Just in case you have not looked at Devo coatings web site. http://www.devoecoatings.com/Specifications.do Aaron --- On Wed, 3/31/10, mdemers2005@... wrote: From: mdemers2005@... Subject: [origamiboats] using surplus paint To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 4:23 AM HI, I bought some devoe 4160 industrial primer for $50.00 / 5 gal. , I will use it above waterline, on deck and inside. I can also get some epoxy floor paint, did anyone experienced with such paint on a steel boat, can it be used under water line? Does anyone know if you can add something to paint to convert it to marine paint? Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Installez Messenger sur votre t�l�phone. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712966 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22952|22948|2010-04-01 09:18:00|martin demers|Re: using surplus paint|I finally loaded the specification page on my devoe primer and it is not made to be submerge or go under water. I am worried if it will still be good above waterline. I will need to find another primer for under waterline. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: akenai@... Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:00:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] using surplus paint Martin Just in case you have not looked at Devo coatings web site. http://www.devoecoatings.com/Specifications.do Aaron --- On Wed, 3/31/10, mdemers2005@... wrote: From: mdemers2005@... Subject: [origamiboats] using surplus paint To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 4:23 AM HI, I bought some devoe 4160 industrial primer for $50.00 / 5 gal. , I will use it above waterline, on deck and inside. I can also get some epoxy floor paint, did anyone experienced with such paint on a steel boat, can it be used under water line? Does anyone know if you can add something to paint to convert it to marine paint? Martin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Acc�s direct � Messenger depuis votre t�l�phone http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712962 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22953|22953|2010-04-01 09:31:50|martin|Paint Considerations|My personal thoughts on exterior paint is to do the whole exterior in one solid coat of the same product. That is how we did the primer on Prairie Maid. Since I knew she would be here in the yard for a long time I also checked with the antifouling manufacturer and they agreed that a bonding coat of antifoul should be applied before the primer cured so that later coats of antifoul would have something to stick to without major sanding. Martin.| 22954|22909|2010-04-01 12:51:45|wild_explorer|Re: Battery Charging Ideas|Could be useful. http://www.boatfix.com/how/Ele1.html http://www.boatfix.com/how/Ele2.html --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > Hi All; I'm curious as to what configurations people have on their boats for charging up the batteries. | 22955|3207|2010-04-01 18:30:21|steve|Stability|Here is an anecdote to make you think. 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since then. There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable with enough inappropriate tophamper. Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough passage. What a hassle. As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very interesting to me.| 22956|3207|2010-04-02 14:21:19|theboilerflue|Re: Stability|"He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. " Well as has been said on this list before the heavier the mast the more likely to resist roll initially but once one get the boat rolling it can act against you, and for these tall rigs the "boats used to all have solid fir mast" argument doesn't really apply (they also had lower aspect rigs) that extra 500 or so pounds is multplied by the 20 or so feet between the centre of masses, I would think that effects the boat more than weight on deck (20+ times more in fact) from chain or dodger or what not which is only a few feet from the centre of mass of the boat. It still surprises me though that the boat wasn't able to right itself though. "The boat just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable." Of course I wonder how many of these local sailors thought that BEFORE the knock down. I am kinda guessing at the weight of those steel masts all I know is that I can pick up and carry my mast, though it's kinda awkward being 47 feet long and all and I couldn't pick up andy grey's steel mast. "Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough passage. What a hassle." no kidding that, would be a hassle although on a long two weeks without land passage taking the 200+ pounds of ground tackle might be worth it, otherwise I rather keep it in case I have to anchor in a hurry. And really how many furlers do you need one works pretty well and two would be about max unless you had to have some sort of mainsail furling thing going on. And I wonder how much force a dodger/pilot house would add to the roll of a boat, kinda would depend on the shape, one like yours steve is pretty streamlined but there was that one I saw in nanaimo the other day that had a lot of large flat surface higher up, I wonder they probably had canvas on the rails around the cockpit, add up all that and you'd have the same surface area of a stormsail really.| 22957|3207|2010-04-02 17:55:22|Norm Moore|Re: Stability|Sailors often condemn the use of steel masts outright under the assumption that a mast of equivalent strength would be twice as heavy in steel than aluminum, but steel is significantly stronger in column than aluminum. Tom Colvin in Steel Boat Building shows that Euler's formula needs to be modified for the increased strength of steel in column by modifying the denominator from L2 to (0.70 L)2 which just about doubles the strength of steel. A thinner section and resultant lighter weight can yield equivalent strength making up for most of the supposed weight advantage of aluminum, (this varies of course depending on strength requirements and available diameters). Colvin generally recommends 11 gauge (0.1196") steel for masts. A simple mistake in doing these strength calculations could lead to an unnecessarily heavy mast and a loss of stability. Pretty easy to screw this one up. Another major contributor to instability after a knockdown is the use of an unsealed mast with internal halyards. A rough calculation of the weight of sea water filling a 5" x 47' mast is about 1480 lbs. strung out over a lever of 47' would do a very good job of keeping a boat knocked down. Many sailors never consider how detrimental the use of internal halyards can be until they do this kind of number crunching, then sealing the mast and using eternal halyards makes a whole lot of sense, especially for cruisers. Colvin also recommends dividing the anchor chain into 3 lengths of 45, 30 and 15 fathoms respectively and storing the excess in the bilge unless needed, which makes more sense than keeping it all on deck and again ruining your stability. Norm Moore 559-645-5314 ________________________________ From: steve To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 2:30:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Stability Here is an anecdote to make you think. 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since then. There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable with enough inappropriate tophamper. Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough passage. What a hassle. As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very interesting to me. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22958|3207|2010-04-02 18:13:25|Paul Wilson|Re: Stability|Yes, very interesting. With a lot of poor choices or too many compromises, I could see this is possible with any design. My two cents..... 1. Bilge keelers are more tender than fin keelers due to shallower draft and higher ballast. There are definite advantages to bilge keel designs but all boats are compromises. It would be impossible to place the ballast as low or concentrated on a bilge keeler as in the wider deeper fin keel design. 2. Poor ballast placement due to poorly poured or placed lead or compromise using steel and concrete. Poorly installed ballast prevents large heavy items to be placed low in the keel or bilge. 3. Heavy tanks up high under the settees rather than in the bilge or keel. One compromise leads to another....See above. 4. Heavy mast. Apologies to those who have one, but I have never been comfortable with this idea. It is great to know I can use one to get me going when I have no other options, but it is not a long term choice, in my opinion. The less weight up high the better. Would you remove 1000 pounds of ballast to save money? I hope not. The motion on a small boat offshore is generally bad, whether it has a heavy mast or not. I would rather have a boat that heels less and goes faster. 5. Too much gear on deck. I am always amazed to see small boats with a long row of full jerry cans along the rail. Large inflatables with large outboards are thirsty. If they had a good, easily driven dinghy, they could row or use a small outboard and get rid of the jerry cans. Some yachts carry diesel in the jerry cans since the tanks down below are so inadequate. Awnings, dinghies, windsurfers, kayaks and other gear add a lot of windage and weight. I don't always do it, but when on a long passage with possible nasty weather, I pull the chain off the drum winch, stow the anchor and put the chain in the bilge. Every little bit helps. Roller furlers add a lot of weight and windage but that is one compromise I am not willing to do without. I am a firm believer in "if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't". To be knocked down for 6 hours is a long, long time. I can't see windage from items like roller furling keeping you knocked down unless the wind was incredibly strong. To be knocked down for so long must have been a weight issue. I wonder if they took a lot of water on board and what made it finally come back up again. The wheelhouse actually provides buoyancy when knocked over so should help prevent a complete rollover. It probably doesn't help much during a partial knockdown or if hit by a the power of breaking wave, however. Are you sure on the spelling of the name and are you sure that it was a 36 footer? I think there a Swain named "Euler" but I can't be sure. It might have been a 31. I know a guy here in NZ who has spent a lot of time on the lower end of the south island. I can ask and see if he has heard of the story. Usually there is an element of truth mixed with good story telling or exaggeration. I have a friend who once said "never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Hopefully Brent has heard of it and can fill us in. Cheers, Paul steve wrote: > > > Here is an anecdote to make you think. > > 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs > ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since > then. > There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel > multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from > Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. > > He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ > some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck > and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the > drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the > boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat > just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors > in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. > > They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and > stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. > > Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. > > That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable > with enough inappropriate tophamper. > > Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough > passage. What a hassle. > > As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very > interesting to me. > > __. | 22959|3207|2010-04-02 22:57:14|steve|Re: Stability|I actually remember the boat Ullr from when it was in Comox. It is a 36' with a centre cockpit. It is the only centre cockpit 36' Swain boat that I have seen , other than my own. The Ullr's cockpit was very big , Brent will remember how long , like 6' or more compared to my cockpit at 4' in length. Pau: the NZ couple here , that told me the story, are Ian and Helen on 'Kotuku' , homeport Bluff. He is not critical of the design , only what he saw being done to this particular boat. I'll tell you though, that his story certainly gave me pause for several days. But I don't plan to sail around the Horn from 50 south to 50 south. Perhaps more of a sneaking look if the weather gods smile , or at least grimace. 'There is no God south of fifty' I think that the bilge keelers must be more tender, intuitively , but the only example of a twin-keeler sailing alongside a fin keeler , that I know of, is when I sailed alongside of Dale Deforrest's boat about 5 yrs ago in Comox Bay. There was no noticeable difference in angle of heel , but the winds were a moderate 12 - 15 knots. I have 5000 lbs of poured lead,while I think Brent's original design calls for 4500 lbs. I think the idea of several separate chain lengths is a very good one, and will work well with the deck drum windlass. Keeping a short chain and rope rode available on deck might be prudent, I think. Jack Carson did a tradewind circumnavigation on his 36' twin-keeler and rode out a few blows by trailing warps. No knockdowns , but probably because the wave with his name on it didn't come along. Gerry Clarke from Kerikeri, NZ did a really high latitude circumnavigation in a 34' cold-molded wood twin-keeler named Totorore. He had all sorts of knockdowns and dismastings. A truly epic voyage in truly horrible conditions that only birds would love. I have not been in a situation where warps or drogues were needed. I have hove-to twice in strong winds and it felt very safe. I will be very reluctant to lie ahull in this boat in bad breaking seas. Therefore, I have a series drogue and a parachute and I plan to have a low threshold to use the drogue. Reading Roger Taylor's blog of his trips in the 23' Corribee 'Mingming' is inspiring. A junk-rigged 23' f\g twin-keeler that he sails to difficult places like Jan Mayen Is and worse. He seems to deploy the series drogue with little provocation and feels very safe with no knockdowns or capsizes. He also seems to have little problem retrieving the drogue. He is a strong advocate for series drogues on small boats. He also is not in a hurry. He is not outrunning any weather in that boat. This is in contrast to the lads on Berrimilla who set off on non-stop trips from Oz to the UK and back and seem to never heave-to ,lie ahull or lie to warps or drogues. Amazing! They just run before everything. 50 or 60 knots? Just hold on and fly! What a seaworthy little boat , a Brolga 33 , very much like an S+S 34. They did have at least one bad knockdown (sprang back up immediately) and a dismasting. I won't be doing that strategy in the Silas Crosby if I sail from Mangareva to Puerto Montt. I will be on the side of the cowards ,and chuck my series drogue over early. My mast is a non-water-tight aluminum extrusion. I will see what I can do to keep the mast out of the water. And the water out of the boat. Really important. Then, IF that is successful , I can sneak up the creeks and dry out on a beach or mudbank. Infinite compromise. What is the worst that can happen ? Yep. Maybe sooner than later. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Yes, very interesting. With a lot of poor choices or too many > compromises, I could see this is possible with any design. > > > My two cents..... > > 1. Bilge keelers are more tender than fin keelers due to shallower draft > and higher ballast. There are definite advantages to bilge keel designs > but all boats are compromises. It would be impossible to place the > ballast as low or concentrated on a bilge keeler as in the wider deeper > fin keel design. > 2. Poor ballast placement due to poorly poured or placed lead or > compromise using steel and concrete. Poorly installed ballast prevents > large heavy items to be placed low in the keel or bilge. > 3. Heavy tanks up high under the settees rather than in the bilge or > keel. One compromise leads to another....See above. > 4. Heavy mast. Apologies to those who have one, but I have never been > comfortable with this idea. It is great to know I can use one to get me > going when I have no other options, but it is not a long term choice, in > my opinion. The less weight up high the better. Would you remove 1000 > pounds of ballast to save money? I hope not. The motion on a small > boat offshore is generally bad, whether it has a heavy mast or not. I > would rather have a boat that heels less and goes faster. > 5. Too much gear on deck. I am always amazed to see small boats with a > long row of full jerry cans along the rail. Large inflatables with > large outboards are thirsty. If they had a good, easily driven dinghy, > they could row or use a small outboard and get rid of the jerry cans. > Some yachts carry diesel in the jerry cans since the tanks down below > are so inadequate. Awnings, dinghies, windsurfers, kayaks and other > gear add a lot of windage and weight. I don't always do it, but when on > a long passage with possible nasty weather, I pull the chain off the > drum winch, stow the anchor and put the chain in the bilge. Every > little bit helps. Roller furlers add a lot of weight and windage but > that is one compromise I am not willing to do without. > > I am a firm believer in "if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't". > To be knocked down for 6 hours is a long, long time. I can't see > windage from items like roller furling keeping you knocked down unless > the wind was incredibly strong. To be knocked down for so long must > have been a weight issue. I wonder if they took a lot of water on board > and what made it finally come back up again. The wheelhouse actually > provides buoyancy when knocked over so should help prevent a complete > rollover. It probably doesn't help much during a partial knockdown or > if hit by a the power of breaking wave, however. > > Are you sure on the spelling of the name and are you sure that it was a > 36 footer? I think there a Swain named "Euler" but I can't be sure. It > might have been a 31. I know a guy here in NZ who has spent a lot of > time on the lower end of the south island. I can ask and see if he has > heard of the story. Usually there is an element of truth mixed with > good story telling or exaggeration. I have a friend who once said > "never let the truth get in the way of a good story." > > Hopefully Brent has heard of it and can fill us in. > > Cheers, Paul > > steve wrote: > > > > > > Here is an anecdote to make you think. > > > > 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs > > ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since > > then. > > There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel > > multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from > > Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. > > > > He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ > > some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck > > and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the > > drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the > > boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat > > just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors > > in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. > > > > They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and > > stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. > > > > Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. > > > > That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable > > with enough inappropriate tophamper. > > > > Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough > > passage. What a hassle. > > > > As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very > > interesting to me. > > > > __. > | 22960|3207|2010-04-03 06:55:41|edward|Re: Stability|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > I actually remember the boat Ullr from when it was in Comox. It is a 36' with a centre cockpit. It is the only centre cockpit 36' Swain boat that I have seen , other than my own. The Ullr's cockpit was very big , Brent will remember how long , like 6' or more compared to my cockpit at 4' in length. A slow draining cockpit, especially a big one will add a tonne per cubic metre if green water is shipped. The same with water on the deck and small scuppers. Regards, Ted| 22961|3207|2010-04-03 11:44:36|maxcamirand|Re: Stability|> time on the lower end of the south island. I can ask and see if he has > heard of the story. Usually there is an element of truth mixed with > good story telling or exaggeration. I have a friend who once said > "never let the truth get in the way of a good story." I believe Farley Mowat once said that he never let the facts get in the way of the truth. Anyway, all this talk of drogues and running VS heaving-to has piqued my interest. Instead of rigging a chafe-prone drogue in difficult conditions, one could simply lower the anchor with a good length of chain. That should provide as much drag as you'd like, no? The choice between running before the weather or heaving-to has a lot to do with the boat. Light boats need to be sailed through heavy weather. Heavy boats can heave-to more safely. That's the traditional view, anyway. Regards, -Max| 22962|22962|2010-04-03 12:23:02|akenai|Nannidiesel|Anyone familar with this company? www.nannidiesel.com They have a diesel hybrid with a Kobota engine. Aaron| 22963|3207|2010-04-03 14:58:49|brentswain38|Re: Stability|A kiwi kid I met in Tonga said the new owner of Ullr was known locally to be a few bricks short of a full load. He put a massively heavy STEEL dodger on her, extended the stern a couple of feet and made the extension into a fuel tank of roughly 2,000 lbs, all above the waterline and well above the centre of buoyancy.. He screwed up the keel shape by adding to the leading edge, which would screw up the balance of an otherwise extremely well balanced hull. He said the boat was extremely tippy just stepping off the dock onto her, and locals warned him of the dangerous reduction in stability he had given her. He was the kind of guy you couldn't tell anything to. Her misfortunes don't surprise me. If she ever ends up in the hands of someone with an IQ greater than his shoe size, that owner can cut off the "Improvements" with a cutting torch in a few days and again she will become the great , seaworthy ocean cruiser I designed. For a owner to second guess, a design which as been so well proven over decades and dozens of boats is not new. On one of my 36 footers the owner hired a shipyard worker to put the wheelhouse on. He put the wheelhouse about three feet ahead of the transom , then built it in 3/16th plate. Then under the wheelhouse floor he put two 150 gallon water tanks, weighting about 3,000 lbs . He never asked me about these "Improvements." The thinking is "house" thinking where you just put stuff wherever it's convenient, and don't give a second's thought about weight. So is it the designers fault that she sat extremely low in the astern? Evan once put an massively heavy Chinese diesel in a 36, then put an 500 lb diesel tank behind it right in the stern. When that put the boat extremely low in the stern , he began to do it again for another boat. Thankfully that boat changed hands to a wiser owner, who knows better than to let am amateur redesign his boat.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > Here is an anecdote to make you think. > > 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since then. > There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. > > He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. > > They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. > > Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. > > That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable with enough inappropriate tophamper. > > Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough passage. What a hassle. > > As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very interesting to me. > | 22964|3207|2010-04-03 15:08:29|brentswain38|Re: Stability|Ullr was the first centre cockpit boat I ever did. I wanted to make the cockpit long enough to sleep in if necessary so I made it 6 ft 6. By the time I did Silas Crosby, I realized that if one slept athwartships, the cockpit only needed to be 4 ft long. The cockpit is still only 2 ft wide and 11 inches deep, so doesn't hold a dangerous amount of water, . Being amidships also helps, as she is unlikely to be pooped and has 2 inch drains. Her mast was 5 1/2 inch steel tubing with a 1/8th wall, lighter than a 5 1/2 inch by 8 1/2 inch box section spruce with 1 1/4 inch walls. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > I actually remember the boat Ullr from when it was in Comox. It is a 36' with a centre cockpit. It is the only centre cockpit 36' Swain boat that I have seen , other than my own. The Ullr's cockpit was very big , Brent will remember how long , like 6' or more compared to my cockpit at 4' in length. > > Pau: the NZ couple here , that told me the story, are Ian and Helen on 'Kotuku' , homeport Bluff. He is not critical of the design , only what he saw being done to this particular boat. > > I'll tell you though, that his story certainly gave me pause for several days. But I don't plan to sail around the Horn from 50 south to 50 south. Perhaps more of a sneaking look if the weather gods smile , or at least grimace. 'There is no God south of fifty' > > I think that the bilge keelers must be more tender, intuitively , but the only example of a twin-keeler sailing alongside a fin keeler , that I know of, is when I sailed alongside of Dale Deforrest's boat about 5 yrs ago in Comox Bay. There was no noticeable difference in angle of heel , but the winds were a moderate 12 - 15 knots. I have 5000 lbs of poured lead,while I think Brent's original design calls for 4500 lbs. > > I think the idea of several separate chain lengths is a very good one, and will work well with the deck drum windlass. Keeping a short chain and rope rode available on deck might be prudent, I think. > > Jack Carson did a tradewind circumnavigation on his 36' twin-keeler and rode out a few blows by trailing warps. No knockdowns , but probably because the wave with his name on it didn't come along. > > Gerry Clarke from Kerikeri, NZ did a really high latitude circumnavigation in a 34' cold-molded wood twin-keeler named Totorore. He had all sorts of knockdowns and dismastings. A truly epic voyage in truly horrible conditions that only birds would love. > > I have not been in a situation where warps or drogues were needed. I have hove-to twice in strong winds and it felt very safe. > I will be very reluctant to lie ahull in this boat in bad breaking seas. Therefore, I have a series drogue and a parachute and I plan to have a low threshold to use the drogue. > > Reading Roger Taylor's blog of his trips in the 23' Corribee 'Mingming' is inspiring. A junk-rigged 23' f\g twin-keeler that he sails to difficult places like Jan Mayen Is and worse. He seems to deploy the series drogue with little provocation and feels very safe with no knockdowns or capsizes. He also seems to have little problem retrieving the drogue. He is a strong advocate for series drogues on small boats. He also is not in a hurry. He is not outrunning any weather in that boat. > > This is in contrast to the lads on Berrimilla who set off on non-stop trips from Oz to the UK and back and seem to never heave-to ,lie ahull or lie to warps or drogues. Amazing! They just run before everything. 50 or 60 knots? Just hold on and fly! What a seaworthy little boat , a Brolga 33 , very much like an S+S 34. They did have at least one bad knockdown (sprang back up immediately) and a dismasting. > > I won't be doing that strategy in the Silas Crosby if I sail from Mangareva to Puerto Montt. I will be on the side of the cowards ,and chuck my series drogue over early. > > My mast is a non-water-tight aluminum extrusion. > > I will see what I can do to keep the mast out of the water. And the water out of the boat. Really important. > > Then, IF that is successful , I can sneak up the creeks and dry out on a beach or mudbank. > > Infinite compromise. > > What is the worst that can happen ? Yep. Maybe sooner than later. > > Steve > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Yes, very interesting. With a lot of poor choices or too many > > compromises, I could see this is possible with any design. > > > > > > My two cents..... > > > > 1. Bilge keelers are more tender than fin keelers due to shallower draft > > and higher ballast. There are definite advantages to bilge keel designs > > but all boats are compromises. It would be impossible to place the > > ballast as low or concentrated on a bilge keeler as in the wider deeper > > fin keel design. > > 2. Poor ballast placement due to poorly poured or placed lead or > > compromise using steel and concrete. Poorly installed ballast prevents > > large heavy items to be placed low in the keel or bilge. > > 3. Heavy tanks up high under the settees rather than in the bilge or > > keel. One compromise leads to another....See above. > > 4. Heavy mast. Apologies to those who have one, but I have never been > > comfortable with this idea. It is great to know I can use one to get me > > going when I have no other options, but it is not a long term choice, in > > my opinion. The less weight up high the better. Would you remove 1000 > > pounds of ballast to save money? I hope not. The motion on a small > > boat offshore is generally bad, whether it has a heavy mast or not. I > > would rather have a boat that heels less and goes faster. > > 5. Too much gear on deck. I am always amazed to see small boats with a > > long row of full jerry cans along the rail. Large inflatables with > > large outboards are thirsty. If they had a good, easily driven dinghy, > > they could row or use a small outboard and get rid of the jerry cans. > > Some yachts carry diesel in the jerry cans since the tanks down below > > are so inadequate. Awnings, dinghies, windsurfers, kayaks and other > > gear add a lot of windage and weight. I don't always do it, but when on > > a long passage with possible nasty weather, I pull the chain off the > > drum winch, stow the anchor and put the chain in the bilge. Every > > little bit helps. Roller furlers add a lot of weight and windage but > > that is one compromise I am not willing to do without. > > > > I am a firm believer in "if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't". > > To be knocked down for 6 hours is a long, long time. I can't see > > windage from items like roller furling keeping you knocked down unless > > the wind was incredibly strong. To be knocked down for so long must > > have been a weight issue. I wonder if they took a lot of water on board > > and what made it finally come back up again. The wheelhouse actually > > provides buoyancy when knocked over so should help prevent a complete > > rollover. It probably doesn't help much during a partial knockdown or > > if hit by a the power of breaking wave, however. > > > > Are you sure on the spelling of the name and are you sure that it was a > > 36 footer? I think there a Swain named "Euler" but I can't be sure. It > > might have been a 31. I know a guy here in NZ who has spent a lot of > > time on the lower end of the south island. I can ask and see if he has > > heard of the story. Usually there is an element of truth mixed with > > good story telling or exaggeration. I have a friend who once said > > "never let the truth get in the way of a good story." > > > > Hopefully Brent has heard of it and can fill us in. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > steve wrote: > > > > > > > > > Here is an anecdote to make you think. > > > > > > 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs > > > ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since > > > then. > > > There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel > > > multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from > > > Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. > > > > > > He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ > > > some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck > > > and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the > > > drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the > > > boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat > > > just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors > > > in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. > > > > > > They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and > > > stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. > > > > > > Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. > > > > > > That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable > > > with enough inappropriate tophamper. > > > > > > Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough > > > passage. What a hassle. > > > > > > As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very > > > interesting to me. > > > > > > __. > > > | 22965|22946|2010-04-03 15:14:55|brentswain38|Re: BS 40 rigging|3/8th is fine. I prefer galv high tensile 1x7 as it is cheaper and far more reliable that stainless, with the same original strength, stronger after considerable use. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rooster" wrote: > > What size rigging wire for the BS40(3/8" 1x19 with 5/8 pin?) and has anyone worked out the righting moment. > > Jason > | 22966|22935|2010-04-03 15:15:00|brentswain38|Re: Morse/Teleflex Controls|With my engine right under the companion way, I find that direct linkage ,with thin walled stainless tubing to the throttle and tranny is far more reliable, simpler and cheaper than any commercially available engine controls. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz wrote: > > I can't help you with another manufacture but I could suggest taking > Origami one step further and making your own. > > It wouldn't be that difficult to cast control lever arms out of > bronze. Find a friend with a mill or lathe to do the rest. I'm not > sure what your specific use is here (throttle and transmision > maybe). Throttle controls should be fairly easy. A gear shift maybe > not so easy. > > If this is so, do you really want the throttle grouped with the > transmission control? Maybe I'm missing what you are after here. > > David A Frantz > > websterindustro@... > Sent from my iPhone. > > On Mar 28, 2010, at 2:58 PM, mickeyolaf wrote: > > > Is anyone aware of a stainless replacement for the Morse MJB two > > lever side mount control? ($360-520 US) > > > > The Morse is a combo of brass, thin chrome, and mild steel which > > pits and corrodes rapidly. I've taken it off the boat and plan to > > return it. It will be nothing but trouble. > > > > There are other chinese copies of the control which are of the same > > ill matched materials.($90-140 US) > > > > I see Vetus has an all stainless single lever control ($250 US) but > > that is dual function. I wonder if these controls would/could be > > convertable/disabled to single function using two of them? Any of u > > mechanical wizs out there know? > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 22967|22953|2010-04-03 15:18:57|brentswain38|Re: Paint Considerations|The only problem with this is epoxy is a great protector of steel, but it is a poor choice for a topcoat as it chalks badly in UV. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "martin" wrote: > > My personal thoughts on exterior paint is to do the whole exterior in one solid coat of the same product. That is how we did the primer on Prairie Maid. Since I knew she would be here in the yard for a long time I also checked with the antifouling manufacturer and they agreed that a bonding coat of antifoul should be applied before the primer cured so that later coats of antifoul would have something to stick to without major sanding. Martin. > | 22968|3207|2010-04-03 15:24:39|brentswain38|Re: Stability|Andy's mast is 6 5/8th steel with a 10 gauge wall, far heavier than the 6 inch 11 gauge wall masts most use. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > "He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. " > > Well as has been said on this list before the heavier the mast the more likely to resist roll initially but once one get the boat rolling it can act against you, and for these tall rigs the "boats used to all have solid fir mast" argument doesn't really apply (they also had lower aspect rigs) that extra 500 or so pounds is multplied by the 20 or so feet between the centre of masses, I would think that effects the boat more than weight on deck (20+ times more in fact) from chain or dodger or what not which is only a few feet from the centre of mass of the boat. It still surprises me though that the boat wasn't able to right itself though. > > "The boat just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable." > > Of course I wonder how many of these local sailors thought that BEFORE the knock down. > > I am kinda guessing at the weight of those steel masts all I know is that I can pick up and carry my mast, though it's kinda awkward being 47 feet long and all and I couldn't pick up andy grey's steel mast. > > "Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough passage. What a hassle." > > no kidding that, would be a hassle although on a long two weeks without land passage taking the 200+ pounds of ground tackle might be worth it, otherwise I rather keep it in case I have to anchor in a hurry. > > And really how many furlers do you need one works pretty well and two would be about max unless you had to have some sort of mainsail furling thing going on. And I wonder how much force a dodger/pilot house would add to the roll of a boat, kinda would depend on the shape, one like yours steve is pretty streamlined but there was that one I saw in nanaimo the other day that had a lot of large flat surface higher up, > I wonder they probably had canvas on the rails around the cockpit, add up all that and you'd have the same surface area of a stormsail really. > | 22969|21791|2010-04-03 15:30:07|brentswain38|Wind generator|I was considering building a wind generator alternator from scratch, when a friend showed the new compact car permanent magnet alternators. They are tiny , and look like a shallow bowl with a pulley on top , over a two bolt base plate.It looks like a large engine mount. He could get three volts out of it spinning it by hand. You can tell the output of a permanent magnet motor by shorting her out and checking the resistance to turning it by hand . This thing had a lot of resistance, without shorting anything out. They are expensive new, but could possibly be bought cheaply in autowreckers. I overlooked several when digging thru the Lasquetti auto piles as I didn't recognize them as alternators. They looked like some kind of idler. Dying to try one out.| 22970|3207|2010-04-03 15:55:30|steve|Re: Stability|Brent , glad to hear that info on the Ullr modifications. Makes sense in view of what Ian on Kotuku said, as well. He is on the Gov dock at the end of the finger I am on. A steel dodger? You timed it well to get into Comox on the day BEFORE yesterday. 78 knots at Chrome Is at 1400 hrs. Come by the boat tomorrow (Sunday) near noon and I will show you the AIS in action, if you are interested. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A kiwi kid I met in Tonga said the new owner of Ullr was known locally to be a few bricks short of a full load. He put a massively heavy STEEL dodger on her, extended the stern a couple of feet and made the extension into a fuel tank of roughly 2,000 lbs, all above the waterline and well above the centre of buoyancy.. He screwed up the keel shape by adding to the leading edge, which would screw up the balance of an otherwise extremely well balanced hull. > He said the boat was extremely tippy just stepping off the dock onto her, and locals warned him of the dangerous reduction in stability he had given her. He was the kind of guy you couldn't tell anything to. Her misfortunes don't surprise me. > If she ever ends up in the hands of someone with an IQ greater than his shoe size, that owner can cut off the "Improvements" with a cutting torch in a few days and again she will become the great , seaworthy ocean cruiser I designed. > For a owner to second guess, a design which as been so well proven over decades and dozens of boats is not new. > On one of my 36 footers the owner hired a shipyard worker to put the wheelhouse on. He put the wheelhouse about three feet ahead of the transom , then built it in 3/16th plate. Then under the wheelhouse floor he put two 150 gallon water tanks, weighting about 3,000 lbs . He never asked me about these "Improvements." The thinking is "house" thinking where you just put stuff wherever it's convenient, and don't give a second's thought about weight. So is it the designers fault that she sat extremely low in the astern? > Evan once put an massively heavy Chinese diesel in a 36, then put an 500 lb diesel tank behind it right in the stern. When that put the boat extremely low in the stern , he began to do it again for another boat. Thankfully that boat changed hands to a wiser owner, who knows better than to let am amateur redesign his boat.. > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > > > Here is an anecdote to make you think. > > > > 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since then. > > There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. > > > > He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. > > > > They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. > > > > Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. > > > > That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable with enough inappropriate tophamper. > > > > Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough passage. What a hassle. > > > > As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very interesting to me. > > > | 22971|22971|2010-04-03 22:22:15|rd_cedar|BS 31 hull draft?|What's the draft of the BS 31 hull; minus the keel(s)?| 22972|22907|2010-04-04 04:19:16|wild_explorer|Re: engines and props for brent swain boat|Propellers gurus, please give your comments. This is my attempt to calculate a propeller for "theboilerflue"'s engine: http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats-engine/web/from-theory-to-practical-application?_done=%2Fgroup%2Forigamiboats-engine%3F What need to correct here? http://groups.google.com/group/origamiboats-engine/web/about-propellers?_done=%2Fgroup%2Forigamiboats-engine%3F Thanks! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > I have a john deere (manufacture yanmar) 3TNA72UJ 22hp engine, hurth 100 transmission 1.8 forward 1.7 reverse reduction, 14x14 prop, 1 1/4 shaft, I think I'm over pitched and probably need something more like 14x10 or 12x12 or so the engine doesn't get up to the rated rpm under load. | 22973|22973|2010-04-04 11:33:00|maxcamirand|OT: Cruising budget|Hi group, I know it's off-topic, but since many of you have long-term cruising experience, I figure this is a good place to ask about the expense involved. A little background: I've always wanted to build a boat to sail off into the sunset, but I realised last year that it was far cheaper to buy and repair a used boat than to build a new one, so I bought a dirt-cheap de-rigged Colvin Gazelle in Seattle. I'm now saving up to buy a small piece of real estate that would indefinitely provide a fairly regular monthly income. We're not rich, and we want to get off the treadmill. My question is: how much does it cost per year or month, for a couple? We'd be cruising worldwide, running the diesel only to get into port, charging batteries with solar panels or home-made windmill, no refrigeration, mostly vegetarian + fish and eggs, cooking with propane, anchoring out, cheap junk rigged. What's the cruising budget, in your experience? Regards, -Max| 22974|22852|2010-04-04 14:22:23|Carl Anderson|PV panels & controller for sale|Here is what I have for sale: 4 older 60 watt panels and a Morningstar dual battery charge controller with remote meter. I have a pair of winches for sale as well: 2 Andersen 16 (2 speed) winches for sale new in 2008. Carl sv-mom.com| 22975|14072|2010-04-05 13:27:45|Jonathan Stevens|Eighteen|I’ve been working on the keel. I had built in a cooling tank so the engine would be keel cooled. When I tested it there were too many little bubbles to ignore so I cherried out all the dodgy bits and re-welded. There were still some holes, where I couldn’t get to easily so I cut the side off, re-welded and then put it all back together. Tried the pressure test again and some new holes showed up! Worse than that, all the extra welding, despite my best efforts, meant that the side plate was now distorted. I’ve told you all this before anyway I left the darn thing and got on with other bits and pieces. This weekend, I took the major decision to go (shh, say it quietly so Brent doesn’t hear) wet exhaust. I had a piece of 4” bore heavy walled pipe and some 4”x2 ½” heavy wall tube so made up a stand pipe. The round pipe goes from one side of the keel to the other, with removable plates with lots of 3/8” holes in (these will be galvanised) each end and the rectangular tube goes up into the engine room for the stopcock to connect to. I made the standpipe tall enough to be above the waterline and put a flange on the top so I can put a bit of acrylic on it to check everything is OK. I cut the crappy tank out and put it all together with a new bit of plate for the keel side. Another decision made is that my rudder, a substantial wooden one, is not going to have a fitting at its heel anymore. I have two strong pintles to weld to the transom that will take any load the rudder may suffer. The keel though, now has a tube with a solid blocking on the end running under the prop aperture and under the leading edge of the rudder; this should stop any stray fishing or other debris getting to the prop or hooking up on the rudder. If I do ground on something hard and bend this up a little, it won’t stop the rudder working. I’ve moved to 2.5mm rods too, and what a difference. The duty cycle on my welder now seems infinite; I am much more in control and all through dropping a size of rod. My instructor on the short (5 Saturday mornings) course I did suggested it. He reminded me of all those things I used to know too, like finishing a weld on the back end of the last one rather than starting a weld on the front end of the last one… So the keel is finished and the template made for the hole in the bottom of Eighteen and aren’t I glad of it. Next job is to get all the glazing bars on the pilot house welded before I jack her up and they get 18” higher off the ground. Another “why did I do that moment” came when I put the really terrific coamings I had made in place to see how they looked like before welding them on; I walked up and down the decks, sat with my back to them, did a bit of pretend fishing and thought…”this is a motor boat, why do I need coamings?” Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22976|22973|2010-04-05 13:40:31|Bob Wills|Re: OT: Cruising budget|Crusing Budjet    It depends on were you are. Food is not the issue as you will need to eat if you are home are on the boat. The only place food was expencive was in French Polyenesia. I lived on the French canels and it cost about what it cost in Mexico. You can live ok for $750 mo./person in general. Sometimes you will need to stay in a marina and you will need some repairs. Note Crusing is fixing your boar in foreign places. What it cost is worth what it cost. You will never be the same after doing it. --- On Sun, 4/4/10, maxcamirand wrote: From: maxcamirand Subject: [origamiboats] OT: Cruising budget To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 4, 2010, 3:32 PM   Hi group, I know it's off-topic, but since many of you have long-term cruising experience, I figure this is a good place to ask about the expense involved. A little background: I've always wanted to build a boat to sail off into the sunset, but I realised last year that it was far cheaper to buy and repair a used boat than to build a new one, so I bought a dirt-cheap de-rigged Colvin Gazelle in Seattle. I'm now saving up to buy a small piece of real estate that would indefinitely provide a fairly regular monthly income. We're not rich, and we want to get off the treadmill. My question is: how much does it cost per year or month, for a couple? We'd be cruising worldwide, running the diesel only to get into port, charging batteries with solar panels or home-made windmill, no refrigeration, mostly vegetarian + fish and eggs, cooking with propane, anchoring out, cheap junk rigged. What's the cruising budget, in your experience? Regards, -Max [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22977|22962|2010-04-05 23:00:36|martin demers|Re: Nannidiesel|I have seen some installed in some boats here in Quebec. Users seems to be satisfied. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: akenai@... Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 16:22:39 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Nannidiesel Anyone familar with this company? www.nannidiesel.com They have a diesel hybrid with a Kobota engine. Aaron _________________________________________________________________ R�inventez comment vous restez en contact avec le nouveau Windows Live Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9706122 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22978|22962|2010-04-05 23:57:52|Aaron Williams|Re: Nannidiesel|I received a reply from an east coast distribute today. The 40 hp Kobota engine is $13,000 US and with the electric hybrid system it goes up to $19,000 Just a bit much for my blood.    --- On Mon, 4/5/10, martin demers wrote: From: martin demers Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Nannidiesel To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 7:00 PM I have seen some installed in some boats here in Quebec.   Users seems to be  satisfied. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: akenai@... Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 16:22:39 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Nannidiesel                         Anyone familar with this company? www.nannidiesel.com They have a diesel hybrid with a Kobota engine. Aaron                                                _________________________________________________________________ Réinventez comment vous restez en contact avec le nouveau Windows Live Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9706122 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22979|22979|2010-04-06 10:44:08|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Hi, There was many posting before on dry exhaust and also Vw engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. I want to know if in this configuration you keep the heat exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on a VW car? Martin.| 22980|22962|2010-04-06 12:01:17|arctichusky44|Re: Nannidiesel|Check out the Burden Surplus Center in California online. They usually have new Kabota diesels around that hp for a third or less of that.That would be at www.surpluscenter.com. Frank --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I received a reply from an east coast distribute today. The 40 hp Kobota engine is $13,000 US and with the electric hybrid system it goes up to $19,000 > Just a bit much for my blood.  >   > > > --- On Mon, 4/5/10, martin demers wrote: > > > From: martin demers > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Nannidiesel > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 7:00 PM > > > > I have seen some installed in some boats here in Quebec.   Users seems to be  satisfied. > Martin. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: akenai@... > Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 16:22:39 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Nannidiesel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > >     >       >       >       > > Anyone familar with this company? www.nannidiesel.com > > > > They have a diesel hybrid with a Kobota engine. > > > > Aaron > > > > > > >     >       > >     >     > > > > > > >                              > _________________________________________________________________ > Réinventez comment vous restez en contact avec le nouveau Windows Live Messenger. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9706122 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 22981|22852|2010-04-06 18:50:15|brentswain38|Re: PV panels & controller for sale|What make the panels? I may be interested. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > Here is what I have for sale: > > 4 older 60 watt panels and a Morningstar dual battery charge controller > with remote meter. > > I have a pair of winches for sale as well: > > 2 Andersen 16 (2 speed) winches for sale new in 200(OD > > Carl > sv-mom.com > | 22982|22852|2010-04-06 18:52:37|kingsknight4life|Re: PV panels & controller for sale|Brent check your hotmail. rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > What make the panels? I may be interested. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Here is what I have for sale: > > > > 4 older 60 watt panels and a Morningstar dual battery charge controller > > with remote meter. > > > > I have a pair of winches for sale as well: > > > > 2 Andersen 16 (2 speed) winches for sale new in 200(OD > > > > Carl > > sv-mom.com > > > | 22983|22962|2010-04-06 23:20:25|James|Re: Nannidiesel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "akenai" wrote: > > > Anyone familar with this company? www.nannidiesel.com > > They have a diesel hybrid with a Kobota engine. > > Aaron > Professional Boatbuilder, Dec./Jan. 2010, has an article "Niche Diesels" that mentions Nanni. (www.proboat.com)| 22984|22979|2010-04-07 10:25:32|mdemers2005@hotmail.com|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > Hi, > > There was many posting before on dry exhaust and also Vw engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. > I want to know if in this configuration you keep the heat exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on a VW car? > > Martin. > | 22985|22979|2010-04-07 11:26:59|Denis Buggy|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|hello all this subject of wet dry exhaust has been debated before and all posts are available ------ one of the best makers of offshore boats is NORDHAVEN and their boats command high prices sh and are generally believed to be the best fitted out and the best designed of their type with usually a 2 year waiting list for those with gaga money to spend on their boat . their comments on why they only fit dry exhausts are interesting -they also make it clear they could not keep their reputation if they fitted a wet exhaust . regards denis buggy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > Hi, > > There was many posting before on dry exhaust and also Vw engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. > I want to know if in this configuration you keep the heat exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on a VW car? > > Martin. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22986|22979|2010-04-07 11:39:48|Denis Buggy|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|MARTIN USE THE VW ONE AS YOU CANNOT COOL THE OTHER WITHOUT WATER AND THE VW ONE IS SELF COOLING -USE GOOD GASKETS TO SEAL AND USE COPPER GREASE ON ALL HEAD STUDS FOR EXHAUST ---ROCK GENTLY ANY STUBBORN BOLTS AND GRADUALLY UN DO AS CARBON IS HARD UNDER THE THREADS AND WILL WRING A STUD IF YOU ARE NOT PATIENT WITH THEM ALSO SOME HEADS ARE ALUMINIUM AND CORRODE AND GRIP LIKE HELL WITH STEEL slowly slowly catchee monkey ---- always with exhaust studs --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mdemers2005@... wrote: > > > > Hi, > > There was many posting before on dry exhaust and also Vw engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. > I want to know if in this configuration you keep the heat exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on a VW car? > > Martin. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22987|22987|2010-04-07 16:32:20|wild_explorer|Hull weight distribution|Just an information: Fore and aft weight distribution http://books.google.com/books?id=lI71GXRPELsC&lpg=PA126&ots=Qputm4SjwQ&dq=lcb%20aft%20of%20fore&pg=PA126 Overall effect of adding Weight to a vessel http://books.google.com/books?id=lI71GXRPELsC&lpg=PA126&ots=Qputm4SjwQ&dq=lcb%20aft%20of%20fore&pg=PA127| 22988|22988|2010-04-07 17:38:32|brentswain38|Accessing Yahoo|I'm having lots of trouble getting into Yahoo these days . Is anyone else finding yahoo extremely difficult to connect to lately?| 22989|22852|2010-04-07 17:50:27|brentswain38|Re: PV panels & controller for sale|Carl What times and frequencies do I find you on the ham radio? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > Here is what I have for sale: > > 4 older 60 watt panels and a Morningstar dual battery charge controller > with remote meter. > > I have a pair of winches for sale as well: > > 2 Andersen 16 (2 speed) winches for sale new in 2008. > > Carl > sv-mom.com > | 22990|22988|2010-04-07 17:51:30|David Frantz|Re: Accessing Yahoo|I follow this group via E-Mail for the most part. I don't think I've missed anything. However todays ago I did have trouble getting to the net from a public access point. I blamed that on the access point as yahoos news site was fine elsewhere. David A Frantz websterindustro@... Sent from my iPhone. On Apr 7, 2010, at 5:37 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I'm having lots of trouble getting into Yahoo these days . Is anyone > else finding yahoo extremely difficult to connect to lately? > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > | 22991|3207|2010-04-07 17:51:38|brentswain38|Re: Stability|Ullr is the Nordic god of skiing. Dave and Sue, the couple I built the boat for, were skiing fanatics. I understand the new owner built a massively heavy gantry aft on the boat ,out of sch 40 , 3 inch steel pipe, that you could walk under then put the dinghy on top of that. While bilge keels are higher, they thus have far less tendency to trip a boat into a capsize than a deeper single keel, which offsets the higher ballast. To what extent is anyones guess. The steel mast we originally put on her was lighter than the aluminium section recommended by a local rigger , and considerably lighter than the box section wooden mast used for that size of boat. I was told that the boat heeled dramatically when you stepped off the dock onto her rail. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Yes, very interesting. With a lot of poor choices or too many > compromises, I could see this is possible with any design. > > > My two cents..... > > 1. Bilge keelers are more tender than fin keelers due to shallower draft > and higher ballast. There are definite advantages to bilge keel designs > but all boats are compromises. It would be impossible to place the > ballast as low or concentrated on a bilge keeler as in the wider deeper > fin keel design. > 2. Poor ballast placement due to poorly poured or placed lead or > compromise using steel and concrete. Poorly installed ballast prevents > large heavy items to be placed low in the keel or bilge. > 3. Heavy tanks up high under the settees rather than in the bilge or > keel. One compromise leads to another....See above. > 4. Heavy mast. Apologies to those who have one, but I have never been > comfortable with this idea. It is great to know I can use one to get me > going when I have no other options, but it is not a long term choice, in > my opinion. The less weight up high the better. Would you remove 1000 > pounds of ballast to save money? I hope not. The motion on a small > boat offshore is generally bad, whether it has a heavy mast or not. I > would rather have a boat that heels less and goes faster. > 5. Too much gear on deck. I am always amazed to see small boats with a > long row of full jerry cans along the rail. Large inflatables with > large outboards are thirsty. If they had a good, easily driven dinghy, > they could row or use a small outboard and get rid of the jerry cans. > Some yachts carry diesel in the jerry cans since the tanks down below > are so inadequate. Awnings, dinghies, windsurfers, kayaks and other > gear add a lot of windage and weight. I don't always do it, but when on > a long passage with possible nasty weather, I pull the chain off the > drum winch, stow the anchor and put the chain in the bilge. Every > little bit helps. Roller furlers add a lot of weight and windage but > that is one compromise I am not willing to do without. > > I am a firm believer in "if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't". > To be knocked down for 6 hours is a long, long time. I can't see > windage from items like roller furling keeping you knocked down unless > the wind was incredibly strong. To be knocked down for so long must > have been a weight issue. I wonder if they took a lot of water on board > and what made it finally come back up again. The wheelhouse actually > provides buoyancy when knocked over so should help prevent a complete > rollover. It probably doesn't help much during a partial knockdown or > if hit by a the power of breaking wave, however. > > Are you sure on the spelling of the name and are you sure that it was a > 36 footer? I think there a Swain named "Euler" but I can't be sure. It > might have been a 31. I know a guy here in NZ who has spent a lot of > time on the lower end of the south island. I can ask and see if he has > heard of the story. Usually there is an element of truth mixed with > good story telling or exaggeration. I have a friend who once said > "never let the truth get in the way of a good story." > > Hopefully Brent has heard of it and can fill us in. > > Cheers, Paul > > steve wrote: > > > > > > Here is an anecdote to make you think. > > > > 'Ullr' is a 36' twin-keel Swain boat that left Comox about 16-17 yrs > > ago and sailed to NZ. The boat has changed owners at least once since > > then. > > There is a cruising sailor visiting Comox on his own 39' steel > > multi-chine centreboard sailboat , Joubert-Nivelt design. He is from > > Bluff, NZ. He just told me the story. He is a reasonable guy. > > > > He saw the Ullr being prepared for an offshore voyage in Bluff ,NZ > > some time ago. Apparently the new owners added a lot of gear , on deck > > and in the rig , more furlers , a bigger dodger, more chain on the > > drum and 'other stuff'. He said they put a 'big steel mast' on the > > boat , but I would assume that it already had a steel mast. The boat > > just 'didn't look right' The sentiment among some of the local sailors > > in Bluff was that he was making the Ullr potentially unstable. > > > > They headed out and got into a blow , the boat was knocked down and > > stayed knocked down for six hours! Eventually righted. > > > > Not Good. They made it back into Bluff and reassessed their options. > > > > That's all I know. Makes you wonder. One could make any boat unstable > > with enough inappropriate tophamper. > > > > Maybe move all the ground-tackle and chain into the bilges for a rough > > passage. What a hassle. > > > > As an owner of a 36' twin-keel Swain boat this story is very > > interesting to me. > > > > __. > | 22992|22973|2010-04-07 17:56:31|brentswain38|Re: OT: Cruising budget|My $90 a month pension almost covers my food costs. Don't have a lot of other expenses. Staying out of town saves a fortune. Due tot he expensive food out in the islands I stock up before going to Lasquetti and Cortes as if I'm heading offshore. Free range eggs have been avaiable in town for $3.50 a dozen. $6.50 to $7 a dozen on the islands. They keep for months so I stock up in town then get the hell out of town. I'm embarrassed to have spent so much to pay people to put beans and pea soup in cans, when I was poor, before I learned how to cook the dry ones myself . Now a years supply is around $20. Don't pay anyone to put dry food in cans for you.Now I rarely use my can opener, and life is much cheaper. Bannock is easy to make, and far cheaper than island bread. Friends sailed from Mexico to New Zealand on 35 gallons of diesel. When it was calm, they read. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "maxcamirand" wrote: > > Hi group, > > I know it's off-topic, but since many of you have long-term cruising experience, I figure this is a good place to ask about the expense involved. > > A little background: I've always wanted to build a boat to sail off into the sunset, but I realised last year that it was far cheaper to buy and repair a used boat than to build a new one, so I bought a dirt-cheap de-rigged Colvin Gazelle in Seattle. I'm now saving up to buy a small piece of real estate that would indefinitely provide a fairly regular monthly income. > > We're not rich, and we want to get off the treadmill. My question is: how much does it cost per year or month, for a couple? We'd be cruising worldwide, running the diesel only to get into port, charging batteries with solar panels or home-made windmill, no refrigeration, mostly vegetarian + fish and eggs, cooking with propane, anchoring out, cheap junk rigged. > > What's the cruising budget, in your experience? > > Regards, > -Max > | 22993|22979|2010-04-07 18:03:35|GORDON SCHNELL|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Martin Gord here....I have a VW 1.6L in my BS40. I'm running dry exhaust without the heat exchanger manifold. It runs well that way, but you do accumulate more heat in the engine bay. I have sleeved the entire exhaust (less the actual manifold) with a fiberglass "sleeve" of 1.5" thickness. The insulation is covered with a foil heat shield. This material is available thru the construction industry and is used for heating/cooling systems in commercial buildings. The system was installed prior to foam insulation application and is almost entirely "buried" under the foam. Very quiet!! Gord ----- Original Message ----- From: mdemers2005@... Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010 2:44 Subject: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Hi, > > There was many posting  before on dry exhaust and also Vw  > engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone > using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. > I want to know if in this configuration  you keep the heat > exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on a > VW car? > > Martin. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 22994|22988|2010-04-07 18:32:10|Mark Hamill|Re: Accessing Yahoo|Brent yahoo OK for me Courtenay MARKETPLACE Do More for Dogs Group. Connect with other dog owners who do more. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Welcome to Mom Connection! Share stories, news and more with moms like you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! Explore new interests. Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2796 - Release Date: 04/06/10 23:32:00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22995|22995|2010-04-07 18:38:34|lachica31|Keel cooling - water strainer needed?|Guys, Those of you that have keel/skeg cooling tank systems for cooling your engines, have you put a water strainer in the circuit? Thanks Paul Thompson.| 22996|22995|2010-04-07 18:39:27|lachica31|Keel cooling - water strainer needed?|Guys, Those of you that have keel/skeg cooling tank systems for cooling your engines, have you put a water strainer in the circuit? Thanks Paul Thompson.| 22997|22995|2010-04-07 18:42:55|lachica31|Re: Keel cooling - water strainer needed?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "lachica31" wrote: I apologise for the double post, At first it appeared that the first did not go through, then after I posted the second time, the first popped up. Paul Thompson. | 22998|22988|2010-04-07 19:17:30|martin demers|Re: Accessing Yahoo|I posted my message twice and it didn't showed on my hotmail likje it usually do but it did on the group messages page. Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@... Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:37:36 +0000 Subject: [origamiboats] Accessing Yahoo I'm having lots of trouble getting into Yahoo these days . Is anyone else finding yahoo extremely difficult to connect to lately? _________________________________________________________________ Les vid�os qui font jaser! R�solution HD aussi offerte! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724475 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 22999|22979|2010-04-07 19:31:29|martin demers|Re: Vw diesel and dry exhaust|Gord, I am happy to see it can be done that way, because the Bowman heat exchanger is almost $1000.00 plus the trouble of finding parts for it later on. I have a VW 1.9l TD in my VW camper, I installed it myself, they are easy and cheap to rebuilt . I think it is the cheaper way to get more HP from a diesel in a boat. If I use the a 1.9l less the turbo , I should get around 60 to 65 Hp, more than enough! Couldn't you instal a little 12 volts fan to move the air of the engine bay? Also, do you only need the VW water pump or do you need another one to move the antifreeze liquid? Martin. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: gschnell@... Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:03:27 +1200 Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust Martin Gord here....I have a VW 1.6L in my BS40. I'm running dry exhaust without the heat exchanger manifold. It runs well that way, but you do accumulate more heat in the engine bay. I have sleeved the entire exhaust (less the actual manifold) with a fiberglass "sleeve" of 1.5" thickness. The insulation is covered with a foil heat shield. This material is available thru the construction industry and is used for heating/cooling systems in commercial buildings. The system was installed prior to foam insulation application and is almost entirely "buried" under the foam. Very quiet!! Gord ----- Original Message ----- From: mdemers2005@... Date: Wednesday, April 7, 2010 2:44 Subject: [origamiboats] Vw diesel and dry exhaust To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Hi, > > There was many posting before on dry exhaust and also Vw > engines in sailboats. I would like to know if there is anyone > using the VW engine with a dry exhaust. > I want to know if in this configuration you keep the heat > exchanger manifold or if you use the VW exhaust manifold as on a > VW car? > > Martin. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Obtenez la version mobile de Messenger ici http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724473 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 23000|22995|2010-04-08 08:42:20|Carl Anderson|Re: Keel cooling - water strainer needed?|Not needed as there is nothing to strain. Carl sv-mom.com lachica31 wrote: > > > Guys, > > Those of you that have keel/skeg cooling tank systems for cooling your > engines, have you put a water strainer in the circuit? > > Thanks > > Paul Thompson. > > |